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I am not going to cover things that well-informed normies already know: How Israel is a weird outlier in fertility by First World standards, and the collapse of fertility in the Islamic world; how life expectancy has been soaring nearly everywhere; the “Great White Death” in the US and how all races in the US outperform their counterparts elsewhere, except for American Whites, who live less than almost all Europeans. Nor am I going to cover truly banal stuff, such as how tiny Bangladesh has more people than Russia. Nor particularly controversial stuff such as Eurabia, Great Replacement, etc. which I have covered elsewhere.

For all of this you have websites like Our World in Data and books by Steven Pinker.

I am instead going to focus on the truly little known and esoteric that I happen to find most interesting, especially from a historical or futurist perspective.

***


Demographic Geopolitics

(1) The world population of Greeks has been steady at ~10 million since the age of Alexander the Great. Their percentage of the world total plummeted from ~5% to slightly more than 0.1% today.

Source: Hansen, Mogens Herman. 2008. “An Update on the Shotgun Method.Greek, Roman and Byzantine Studies 48 (3): 259–86.


 

(2) In 1900, Europe’s population (~400M) was quintuple that of Sub-Saharan Africa’s (~80M).

By 2100, Sub-Saharan Africa’s population (~4B) will be eight times as great as Europe’s (~650M).

Quite the reversal!

Source: Maddison; UN World Population Prospects.


 

(3a) Comparing the populations of modern nation-states to their medieval (pre-Black Death) counterparts is a fascinating exercise:

  • France grew only 3x from ~20M to today’s ~65M
  • England: 10x from ~6M to ~60M
  • Italy: 7x from ~9M to ~60M
  • Germany: 8x from ~10M to ~82M
  • India: 15x from ~100M to ~1.7B (including Pakistan & Bangladesh)
  • China: 15x from ~100M to ~1.4B
  • Byzantines-Greeks remained at just ~10M (see above)
  • Russian lands 30x from ~6M to ~190M

Source: Maddison

 

(3b) So despite the vast losses of Russia’s demographic potential during the 20th century, it still did rather well in the long-term, increasing its share of Europe’s population from ~5% to ~20% (~25% if inc. UKR/BEL). Swapped places with France in this respect. Glory to the musket and the potato!

 

(3c) At a larger scale, while both Europe and China were at ~100M in Middle Ages, now China has twice as many people, 1.4B to 700M. The advantages of backwardness – delayed fertility transition left more time for population to soar.


 

(4) France was the world’s first modern nation to undergo the fertility transition. It had its genesis with the French nobility during 18C. Subsequently, France would fall from having 1/5 Europe’s population in Middle Ages to <10% by late 19C.

Source: Spolaore, Enrico, and Romain Wacziarg. 2019. “Fertility and Modernity.” Working Paper Series. National Bureau of Economic Research.


 

(5) Huge demographic losses on the level of World War II in Eastern Europe were typical in the Malthusian era.

  • 30 Years War in Germany, Mongol invasion of Russia and Persia, reduced their populations by a third.
  • Wars & anarchy accompanying the end of dynasties usually killed 33%-50% of Chinese.

 

(6) Were the Turks the big demographic winners of the 20th century?

  • 1914: 13.7M Turks vs. 10M Armenians + Greeks (1.3:1) & ~170M in Russian Empire – precarious.
  • 2017: 80.8M Turks vs. 13.7M Greeks+Armenians (6:1) & ~150M in RF – secure as never before.

 

(7) The population ratio between Russia and the Ukraine fell from less than 3:1 to almost 5:1 since 1992. It is ironic that Ukrainian independence has been worse for Ukraine’s population balance vis-a-vis Russia than anything that Lazar Kaganovich and the Nazis did.


Communist Demographics

 

(8a) Russia just within its current borders, assuming otherwise analogous fertility and migration trends, would have had 261.8 million people by 2017 without the triple demographic disasters of Bolshevism, WW2, and the 1990s – that’s double its actual population of 146 million.

Source: Демографические итоги послереволюционного столетия & Демографические катастрофы ХХ века by Anatoly Vishnevsky

(8b) According to my very rough calculations, based on various sources, the population change for each of the following in their current borders between 1913/14 and 1945/46 was about as follows:

  • Russia – 91M/97M
  • Ukraine – 35M/34M
  • Belarus – 7.5M/7.7M

Assuming a threefold expansion in all of these populations, we could have been looking to a Russian Empire or Republic with a further ~120M fully Russified Belorussians and largely Russified Ukrainians, for a total Slavic population of almost 400M.

That’s twice bigger than the number of White Americans today, the most populous single European ethnicity, and almost as much as all of today’s Western Europe.

(8c) Total population of a hypothetical Russian Empire that also retained Central Asia and the Caucasus, and that hadn’t been bled white by commies, Nazis, and Westernizers during the course of the 20th century, would likely have been not that far off from Dmitry Mendeleev’s 1906 projection of 594 million for 2000.

Source: Understanding Russia by Dmitry Mendeleev (yes, the chemist).


 

(9) So far as I can tell, the Latvians, Estonians, and Ashkenazi Jews are the only peoples with fewer people today than in 1914. It is ironic that they played the most disproportionate roles (per capita) in cementing Bolshevism in Russia. God must really hate commies.


 

(10) That said, the Irish have an even more extreme and unique anti-record: There are fewer of them today (~6.6M in all Ireland) than in 1840 (8.5M)! I wonder what they did to anger God so. 🙂


 

(11) Communism isn’t always an unmitigated demographic disaster. As @Cicerone973 has discovered, for the first time ever, births in Best Korea (25M) probably overtook South Korea (52M) last year.

(Even if, as Myers argued, Songun/Juche has almost zilch to do with Marxism).


 

(12) The wonders of Maoism: Between 1960 and 1978, the share of China’s urban population FELL from 20% to 18%.

Source: China’s Economy by Arthur K. Kroeber.


 

(13) We have no solid idea if China’s TFR is ~1.6 children per woman, ~1.1 children per woman, or anywhere in between, e.g. see here, here, and here.

This seems rather important given China’s importance.


Russian Demographics

 

(14a) Russia’s middle-aged male mortality in the 1990s and early 2000s was worse than under late Tsarism. In particular, alcohol abuse accounted contributed to about a third of all deaths. (This has all since drastically improved).

 

(14b) Contra Pinker, Russia has seen a “de-civilizing” process in terms of homicide rates (and many other indicators of social wellbeing) in the last third of the 20th century. This was perfectly correlated with its alcoholization epidemic.

In recent years, the Russian homicide rate has retreated back to its pre-1965 “steady state” of ~5/100,000.

Of course, there is still plenty of lost ground, since c.1900 Russia’s rates were similar to those of Italy, Finland, and Japan, whereas all these countries are now at least 5x less violent.

 

(14c) During the later Soviet era, the Ukraine consistently had a 2 years higher life expectancy than Russia – a difference that dates back well to the 19th century (probably on account of them drinking less, even back then).

But Ukraine has been stagnating since early 2010s; still below its 1960s all time peak, Russia overtook by 2018.

 

 

(15) Central Asians went from 10% of Russian population in 1914 to half today, while births have almost equalized since the early 1990s.

Central Asians increasingly looking to work in South Korea, which is ~20 years ahead of China in terms of demographic and socio-economic development. Once China’s urbanization maxes out at ~75-80% by ~2040, I expect labor migration from C. Asia to reorient there.


Demographic Predictions

 

(16) Might appear easy, but demographers often get things wrong.

c.1930, some forecasts had France’s population falling from 40M to 28M by 1970. Instead, France went from having one of Europe’s lowest TFRs to one of highest, and population went to 50M by that year.

Source: Sauvy, Alfred. 1932. “Calculs Démographiques Sur La Population Française Jusqu’en 1980.” Journal de La Société Statistique de Paris 73: 319–47.


 

(17) And here are some UN Population Prospects forecasts for the year 2025, as cited by Paul Kennedy in his 1993 book Preparing for the 21st Century. As of the 2017 Update, Iran is predicted to have 87M by 2025, as opposed to 122M.


Breeder Demographics

 

(18) However, “Breeder” genes are ultra-competitive in a post-Malthusian environment. Consequently, it is entirely possible that Europe – which underwent the demographic transition 50-100 years ago – may have higher fertility rates than Africa by 2100.

Source: Collins, Jason, and Lionel Page. 2018. “The Heritability of Fertility Makes World Population Stabilization Unlikely in the Foreseeable Future.” Evolution and Human Behavior: Official Journal of the Human Behavior and Evolution Society, September.


 

(19a) Exponential growth can be very powerful. On current trends, Mormons may account for majorities in wide swathes of the rural American West by the early 22nd century.

 

(19b) There were 31,000 Haremin in Israel and 19,000 Amish in the US in 1952. Today, there are 1,126,000 Haredim in Israel and 343,000 Amish in the US.

 

(19c) While absolute Amish TFR has fallen over the past century from ~8 children per woman to ~6 children, the differential with the US population as a whole has increased from 2x to 3x.

 

(19d) Greg Cochran has argued that less committed Amish have been “boiling off” for more than a century, so “Amishness quotient” is increasing with each generation. Which augurs well for their continued demographic expansion.


 

 

(20) Do Russians have a “breeder” group, like Jews (Haredim), Americans (Amish, Mormons – to an extent)? Some tantalizing hints that the rural areas of Northern European Russia are going that way – but far from confirmed that this trend is here to stay.


Demographics Trivia

 

(21) Completed marriages in 1730s Waltham, Massachusetts produced an average of 9.7 children – the largest ever observed in the West by demographic historians (barring a few Christian communes).

Source: Albion’s Seed by David Hackett Fischer.


 

(22a) Normiecons won’t like this, but generous parental leave & child support appear to be far better than banning abortion & social conservatism so far as promoting higher fertility and disincentivizing dysgenic reproduction patterns goes in First World countries.

 

(22b) To illustrate the previous point, in the last few years:

  • Czech TFR: 1.5-1.7
  • Polish TFR: 1.3-1.5

Czechia is Europe’s most atheist country & has highest number of porn stars per capita (but very based on migration). Poland is very holy – but it doesn’t seem to do it much good.


 

(23) Twitter demographer @Cicerone973 has been tracking an apparent “baby bust” that has affected nearly the entirety of the developed world since 2015.

There are no good explanations for it. My best guess is that since it is happening to almost everyone, it would probably have to be some recent cultural phenomenon that shifts fertility preferences downwards (or delays them). Tinder?


 

(24) The Imperium of Man in Warhammer 40K has long been in the Age of Malthusian Industrialism.

Think about it.

Every year, billions of Imperial Guards and dozens of planets are lost in wars, to Exterminatus, to democidal robots, bioconstructs, and eldritch abominations. It is also run by superstitious cretins (*blam*). Nonetheless, it doesn’t have any particular demographic problems, new planets always being settled.


 

(25) Nobody really knows the carrying capacity of our industrial world economy – all we can say for sure is that we are still far below the limits to growth.

My guesstimate is that the planet can support ~100 billion people.

 
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  1. Please keep off topic posts to the current Open Thread.

    If you are new to my work, start here.

  2. Curious says:

    Were the Turks the big demographic winners of the 20th century?

    Maybe, but they look set to lose in the 21st. Even putting aside the kurdish question, Turkey has seen a huge surge of arabic and generally islamic immigration. I’m not even talking about refugees. Turkish citizenship is very cheap to aquire and their property laws are hyperliberal for foreigners.

    A large number of Arabs (biggest group being Iraqis and not Syrians last year), Afghans, Pakistanis and other muslims now immigrate to the country. Worse, Turkey is seeing a shift in emigration patterns. It is not the gastarbeiter types who are leaving but increasingly the well-educated. Erdogan’s pan-Islamism is eroding the ethnic character of the country. The biggest threat to his rule is not the moribound secular opposition but the nationalist right. By 2030, kurds will be 1/3rd of Turkey population and even greater share among the newborn. Add the arabs and other muslim populations and things start to look really bad for them.

    Wouldn’t be surprised if they are the first NATO country to see an outright ethno-fascist leader rise to power over the coming decade or two.

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
    , @Malema
    , @HEREDOT
  3. first time i had seen the opening graphic/painting… interesting depiction…
    i mean, almost certainly un-PC, fa, ra, and se, and doubtless, transphobic… (isn’t everything ? ? ?)
    cancel the artist ! ! !

  4. The world population of Greeks has been steady at ~10 million since the age of Alexander the Great.

    Interesting contrast with the population of Egypt, which from the time of the Pharaohs to Napoleon (and even a bit beyond) was ~ 4 million, so less than half that of the Greeks. Today it is 100 million, and projected to be 160 million in 2050 and 225 million in 2100.

    • Replies: @argybargy
  5. Svevlad says:

    How long until an African demographic transition, though? By the way things are going, seems to be they’ll profit the most from the AOMI, being the dumbest

    • Replies: @Gerad. 12
  6. Pericles says:

    The post-SU collective literally suicidal depression was an interesting demographic phenomenon. Are there any other examples of the same kind?

  7. Mr. XYZ says:

    (22a) Normiecons won’t like this, but generous parental leave & child support appear to be far better than banning abortion & social conservatism so far as promoting higher fertility and disincentivizing dysgenic reproduction patterns goes in First World countries.

    Anatoly, do you think making illegitimate children entitled to child support (which they weren’t in the US before the late 20th century) was more eugenic or dysgenic in its effects?

    As for Mendeleev’s projections for 2000, they probably included Russian Poland. So, you’re going to have to reduce it by several dozen million or so. I do think that 500 million would be a reasonable estimate for a Russia that keeps Ukraine, Belarus, the Caucasus, and Central Asia and that avoids the demographic devastation of the 20th century, though. Of these, I suspect that around 350 million would identify as Russians while around 50 million would identify as non-Russian Slavs–primarily western and central Ukrainians.

    Of course, an interesting question would be just what kind of immigration policy a non-Bolshevik Russia would have had in the 20th and 21st centuries. Would a lot of Asians and Third Worlders be clamoring to move there just like they are clamoring to move to the West in real life?

    It would also be interesting to see which Russian cities would have been the largest right now in this scenario. Obviously Moscow and St. Pete’s would be at the top, but then what? Kiev? Tashkent? Some other cities? You previously speculated that Odessa would have become much more populous in this scenario, but an increase in size from one million (which is what it is in real life) to 5-7 million (in this scenario) sounds utterly unrealistic, in my honest opinion. Why did Odessa stagnate (relative to some other cities in Greater Russia) during the 20th century in real life?

    As for Israel, I wonder if its fertility would have still been exceptional right now had much more Jews survived the Holocaust and subsequently moved to Israel. Any thoughts on this?

    BTW, in regards to Greater India, an increase from 100 million to 1.7 billion is closer to 20x than to 10x. IMHO, you should have put 15x for both Greater India and China rather than 10x in regards to their population growth over the centuries.

    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
  8. songbird says:

    How well have the Mormons done in Mexico? If badly, what is the basis for supposing they will easily expand into the SW US?

    I guess that is the interesting question: how do groups like the Old Order Mennonites do abroad, in nonwhite countries?

    • Replies: @prime noticer
    , @Barbarossa
  9. most of the people in Ireland moved to the US, largely to our detriment.

    humorously, they’re now engaged in the business of giving away Ireland. like the Scots, a thousand years of struggle against the English, just so they could turn around and give it all away to third worlders.

    Puerto Rico has sort of taken Ireland’s place as the island that empties out into the mainland, and as a thank you, they shift the politics of the country to the left, as the Irish did. current ideas about making Puerto Rico a state would go about as well legalizing all Mexicans – the guaranteed end of the US politically.

    • Replies: @Ray Huffman
  10. global first world fertility bust except among the extremely religious probably IS due to the internet and cell phones. porn if you’re a volcel (a new category of human). and too many options if you prefer real women to porn. why get married when there’s so many women to bang no strings attached and you can find them via social media.

    this coincides with the STD explosion. they track well together.

    plus as a man in many nations the courts are against you right off the bat. getting married is dangerous. and of course, dah innernets spread this concept quickly and effectively to younger men, who are now more aware that it’s dangerous to marry the first woman that comes along in your 20s, or to marry any woman at all, ever.

  11. related website for teh lulz.

    https://www.getoutofillinois.com/

    Illinois is now the US state which is shrinking the fastest. losing about 6 people per 1000 people per year, net. that’s not outmigration, that’s net migration. according to the website, 300 people leave per day.

    New York is second, losing 5 people per 1000 people per year.

    California is avoiding net loss, by replacing Americans who leave, with Mexicans, Chinese, and Indians. still, California has lost over 1 million tax paying middle class Americans over the last 10 years, and it shows. California is in decline.

    • Replies: @Skeptikal
  12. @songbird

    “How well have the Mormons done in Mexico?”

    what would Mitt Romney, a mormon from Mexico, say about the 10 mormons that got wacked in Mexico today?

    “Whatever we do, don’t build the wall,” or something stupid like that.

    “Bridges not walls!”

  13. It is impossible to prognosticate.

    What we have now is actually a continuation of past 5000-6000 years of recorded human history (won’t delve into details).

    Apart from unusual scenarios (ET, comets,..) & expected (WW 3)- the truly new is that we could have in near future of 20-40 years a possibility to radically alter human kind.

    Perhaps genetic profound engineering on a large scale.

    Perhaps artificial wombs.

    Perhaps “pumped up” humans (average IQ 300 etc.).

    Perhaps “species dissociation” with new, biological elites.

    Perhaps cyborgization of (some) humans.

    Anyway, any of these options would mean unimaginable consequences we’d not witnessed in past 6000 years.

    Who in 1850 could imagine that in next hundred years it would be possible to completely eradicate human life on earth with human-made weapons?

    So, I’d say it is idle to speculate.

    • Replies: @songbird
  14. songbird says:
    @Bardon Kaldian

    So, I’d say it is idle to speculate.

    Based on archaeogenetics, I’m not optimistic about pacifists like the Amish.

    • Replies: @Sam Coulton
    , @JMcG
  15. @Mr. XYZ

    Anatoly, do you think making illegitimate children entitled to child support (which they weren’t in the US before the late 20th century) was more eugenic or dysgenic in its effects?

    Seems obviously dysgenic, though there might be some non-evident considerations I’m missing.

    As for Mendeleev’s projections for 2000, they probably included Russian Poland. So, you’re going to have to reduce it by several dozen million or so.

    Mendeleev’s was a simple model.
    Also he wasn’t including Galicia.

    My guess is you’d have had ~550 million: 400M core Slavs + 100M Central Asians (most of the increase accruing to Kazakhs) + 50M sundry Caucasians, Moldovans, Balts.

    Would a lot of Asians and Third Worlders be clamoring to move there just like they are clamoring to move to the West in real life?

    Most likely. Half the very limited number of mosques in both Saint-Petersburg and Moscow are late Tsarist era constructions.

    That’s around the time that the first mosques started to appear in Britain.

    It would also be interesting to see which Russian cities would have been the largest right now in this scenario.

    Recently discussed this elsewhere.

    Even a putative Russian Republic that lost Ukraine etc. would have 270M people, plus a bunch of immigrants from Central Asia. USA is very decentralized, and yet NY still packs 7% of the US population. So I’d say 20-25M is likely number for SPB in Small Russia scenario. (Note also there would have likely been no Soviet era propiska system heavily regulating immigrants into the capital, so even 30M or 10% of the population is not unrealistic).

    So, in scenario we’re discussing:

    SPB: 30-35M

    Moscow: 15-20M (~i.e. what it actually is today)

    SPB was bigger than Moscow – 2.3M vs. 1.8M on the eve of WW1, IIRC – and growing quicker. And probably would have kept its lead, just as NY did. 90% of financial activity was in SPB relative to Moscow. Moscow would have been the spiritual center, as well as a major manufacturing hub. Perhaps also bolder infrastructure development; construction on the original Moscow Metro began in 1914, while SPB had no metro plans at the outbreak of WW1.

    There were some discussions in Nicholas II’s circles about moving the capital back to Moscow, in line with neo-Muscovite artistic sentiment. Long shot, but if that had happened, Moscow and SPB would have ended up truly level pegging, I would guess.

    In reality, what happened is that after Bolshies moved capital to Moscow, SPB and Moscow swapped positions while keeping the same approximate ratio, though now loaded in favor of Moscow. But it was really the Siege of Leningrad that permanently destroyed SPB as a competitor to Moscow. Ever since, it has been been more Russia’s biggest millionik than its “northern capital”, IMO. The post-Soviet period beat in the last nail in its coffin (almost all the rich, repatriates, etc. went to Moscow, not banditized SPB).

    My personal belief is that this discontinuity between the two cities was caused by God punishing SPB for having hosted the fulcrum point of the Bolshevik Revolution. However, recent data shows that in the past few years, population growth in SPB has started to exceed Moscow’s. Perhaps a century old curse has been lifted.

    Kiev: 7M

    Odessa: 4M

    Odessa would have still been much bigger than it is today – only increased by 2x (!) over 20th century – but I revised my opinion it would be Russia’s third city, because I looked at its demographic history and saw that it was growing more slowly than a bunch of other places even during the 19th century.

    There’d also be vigorous competition from places like Krasnodar, Sochi, and Crimea due to greater freedom of movement. Without being correlated into Siberian iceboxes, Russians would be seeking to go to those places in much greater numbers, just as they have done since 1991 (population of Krasnodar and Sochi has doubled since then).

    Conversely, there would be another interesting effect. While the biggest metropolises will be twice bigger, and the southern cities will be multiple times bigger, the far northern and deep Siberian cities will likely be no more populated than they are today. Possibly even less. For instance, quite possible that Perm – a city that grew largely on the military-industrial complex in Soviet times – would only have 500,000 people, not a million.

    BTW, in regards to Greater India, an increase from 100 million to 1.7 billion is closer to 20x than to 10x.

    Agreed. But editing function seems to be frozen atm.

    • Replies: @Svevlad
    , @Mr. XYZ
    , @Philip Owen
  16. Dmitry says:

    Cool article. It’s the first article on Unz, I read without skipping any paragraphs, for about 6 months.

    An offtopic question. Why does Leningrad region always has such a lower fertility rate, according to media reports?

    Regionally, within Russia, Leningrad region is every year reported with the lowest fertility rate. At the moment their total fertility rate is being reported in the media as 1,124.

    The closest I have been to Leningrad region is Pulkovo, so I cannot add anything about the area. Probably this is just some statistical mistake created by internal migration (Saint-Petersburg usually has 0,2-3 higher TFR than Leningrad region)?

    They also always quite significantly behind other low fertility regions: Mordoviya has fertility of 1,255, Tambov region 1,333, Voronezh region 1,339, Penza region 1,348.

    Mordoviya is interesting, because in the Soviet Union, Mordvins used to have higher fertility rates than Russians (although Mordva population declined by intermarriage and assimilation).

    But in recent years, Mordvins’ birthrates have been declining heavily, especially with falls of Mordvin births in rural area* (I assume it is mainly internal migration causing this).


    *
    http://www.vestnik-argo.sfedu.ru/sites/default/files/25.%20%D0%9B%D0%BE%D0%B3%D0%B8%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%B0.pdf

    • Replies: @melanf
  17. For a different perspective:

  18. Once again, a totally superficial and lazy analysis by Anatoly.

    1) The map of Greek settlement shown near the beginning of the post is probably the Greek world around 500-400 BC. That is at least 80 years before the age of Alexander the Great. Also, the dispersed settlement of Greeks around the Mediterranean basin should not imply a large population. Most of these areas marked in red outside of heavily Greek areas in the Aegean Basin, Cyprus and southern Italy would have consisted of polis-states and small trading outposts or emporia. Those polis-states and trading outposts would have been heavily surrounded by non-Greek people.

    2) Greeks are not currently 10m people. We have to add the Greek Cypriots, Greeks of Northern Epirus and much of the Greek diaspora that identifies as Greek. The aggregate Greek population of the world is more like 15m. Officially, it is higher but we should adjust for those Greeks whose Hellenic identity is very faint.

    3) Regardless of the inaccurate number highlighted in 2), the Greek population increased from 10m to 15m, we must not forget a large proportion of Turks living near the western coasts of Anatolia are mostly Islamicised Greeks which are now lost to Hellenism forever. Spyros Vryonis detailed this process in his book, The Decline of Medieval Hellenism in Asia Minor and the Process of Islamization from the Eleventh through the Fifteenth Century.

    Turkish DNA samples bear this out.

    In addition, the Ottoman, Young Turks and Kemalist Turkey, removed about 800,000 to perhaps up to 1.2 million Greeks during the Christian Genocide of Anatolia. This is excruciatingly detailed in, The Thirty-Year Genocide: Turkey’s Destruction of Its Christian Minorities, 1894–1924 by Benny Morris and Dror Ze’evi. It is also borne out by the map comparing Anatolian population centres between 1900 and 2000 (again, this map is not accurate).

    https://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?isbn=9780674916456

    4) The Turkish population figure of 80.8m is again inaccurate. Present day Turkey is comprised of around 15-20% Kurds and another 20% Alevis. Core Sunni Turks constitute about 55-60% of the population of Turkey or around 44-48m. They have been demographic winners but not as great as one is meant to believe without looking into the data more critically which Anatoly characteristically fails to do.

    So, the ratio of Turks to Greeks + Armenians, assuming the lower figure of Armenians around the globe to adjust for Armenians whose identity is faint, is more like 2.1-1, and not 6:1 quoted by Anatoly.

    • Replies: @Cicerone
    , @Cutler
  19. Yevardian says:

    My guesstimate is that the planet can support ~100 billion people.

    Rampant techno-utopianism again. Imagine how polluted, sectarian, fragile and easily disrupted a world even double current population would be.

    • Agree: Charon, Alfred, RadicalCenter
    • Replies: @Malenfant
    , @songbird
  20. Tony says:

    Of course the greek population didnt grow. You cant get pregnant from anal sex.

  21. Malenfant says:
    @Yevardian

    Now imagine that this doubling has not affected all nations equally. Imagine that this new world contains a far higher relative proportion of Africans, Indians, Ultra-Orthodox Jews, and the Amish. (Mormon fertility isn’t far above replacement these days. It has declined sharply in recent years, and this decline shows no signs of abating.)

    A world of 100 billion Russians is at least conceivable. Likewise a world of 100 billion old-stock Americans, or 100 billion Englishmen. But these worlds are, sadly, not possible. The only remotely plausible 100 billion scenario — for some values of plausible — is a vision of hell.

  22. Cicerone says:
    @Agathoklis

    About the diaspora: If they don‘t speak Greek, they can‘t be considered Greeks.

    • Agree: Andy
    • Replies: @Agathoklis
    , @Mr. XYZ
  23. Bliss says:

    In 1900, Europe’s population (~400M) was quintuple that of Sub-Saharan Africa’s (~80M).

    If you add the European diaspora in the Americas, Oceania and the colonies in Asia and Africa there were well over 500 million Europeans on the planet in 1900 which made euros the most populous race of that time at close to a third of the human population. Ranking the 4 main races in 1900 would have looked like this:

    1. Europeans 500+ million
    2. East Asians 475 million
    3. Indians 270 million
    4. Subsaharan Africans 100+ million (including diaspora in Americas).

    In a couple decades the above ranking will be completely reversed. So the last shall be first and the first shall be last. (Matthew 20:16)

  24. @prime noticer

    Idk. I’ve done some of that hooking up stuff (Tinder!!) but it’s not really that enjoyable. I got laid about once a month, with girls who were generally below my SMV. You have to use condoms (not risking an STD). It’s just not that fulfilling of a lifestyle. So I’m off of it now. I’m going volcel (no porn) until I get a gf.

    This type of lifestyle really is a mirage. If you talk to average guys, they don’t have much “success” on Tinder. Even less than me. It’s all a fake image (((they))) created; a wild party lifestyle where you have sex with a new partner every night you found on Tinder. It just doesn’t exist for 95% of men.

    We need to break men out of this conditioning.

  25. I think one big problem of North East Asians is that they have no breeder group. At least I have never heard of any region, religious group or anything like that in Japan with high fertility.

    • Replies: @lauris71
    , @Daniel Chieh
  26. Concerning Subsaharan African expansion I think it is even more striking to compare the the size of its population to either the entire rest of the world or to other specific regions than to Europe. E.g. around 1950 Subsaharan Africa had half of the population of India, by now it is roughly equal, in coming decades it is projected to grow much larger of course.

    • Replies: @RadicalCenter
  27. Bliss says:

    Here’s a few more cool demographic facts from 1900:

    1. Anglo America (USA & Canada) had a larger population than all of Latin America combined.
    2. The Anglosphere had a population approaching twice that of Subsaharan Africa.
    3. Persia had just 7 million people and Arabia had just 4.2

    • Replies: @songbird
  28. @prime noticer

    a volcel (a new category of human)

    Hardly.

  29. Hail says: • Website

    Great post, good data food-for-thought all around.

    A point some might call semantic point, but I’d like to make anyway:

    the number of White Americans today, the most populous single European ethnicity

    White Americans are probably best not called, or thought of, as a (single) ethnicity. I say that as a White American (multiple generations out of Europe on all branches).

    What do we mean when we say ethnicity? Political identity and ethnic identity are usually not the exact same thing.

    White Americans’ various strains of ethnopolitical identity (often based part on European ancestries but also region- and religion-based ethnic-like identity layers), are actually key, IMO, to understanding the USA and its politics. We are certainly not one ethnicity in any meaningful sense.

    • Replies: @Charon
  30. @Pericles

    Yes – the ‘Great White Death’ cited in the article.

    • Replies: @Pericles
  31. Agathoklis says: • Website
    @Cicerone

    Precisely, and that is why I assume 15m, rather than 17-20m, which is often bandied about but that range assumes ancestry. Personally, the ability to converse somewhat in Greek is the marker which counts for ethnic Greek identity. Some ethnicities have religion we have language. There are some exceptions like certain Kappadokes Pre-1922.

    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
  32. @Reg Cæsar

    Light sabers? Dudes,get yourself a broad.
    .

  33. Svevlad says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    I’d say south Siberia (Omsk, Novosibirsk, Irkutsk etc) and the southern far east (Khabarovsk, Vladivostok) would be slightly bigger (Vladivostok especially). The rest might have a more “equal” population distribution since I doubt a non-communist government would gather people in new settlements in their industrialization schemes. Though I suppose a gold (in this case, diamond) rush is always possible. Right now they seem to be holding back, unwilling to crash the global markets

  34. melanf says:
    @Dmitry

    An offtopic question. Why does Leningrad region always has such a lower fertility rate, according to media reports? Regionally, within Russia, Leningrad region is every year reported with the lowest fertility rate. At the moment their total fertility rate is being reported in the media as 1,124

    .

    Probably St. Petersburg as a vacuum cleaner absorbs girls (ready to give birth ) from the Leningrad region. As a result, the age pyramid in the area is broken, and the birth rate is unusually low.

    • Replies: @Cicerone
    , @Dmitry
  35. neutral says:

    Very bluntly we are going to have a real world planet of the apes.

    • Agree: Charon
  36. Cutler says:
    @Agathoklis

    You are correct about Turks being closer to 60% of the population of Turkey and they are trending to decline in coming decades further still, The eastern regions which are majority Kurdish have much higher Tfr than western Turkey in fact the European parts of Turkey and the western fringes like Erdine have the same Tfr as the neighbouring European nations at iirc 1.5 ( Kurdish regions around 3.5-4 Tfr ) And alongside Islamicized Greeks at least 20% of Turks are descendants of Balkan immigrants ( Albanians Bosnians Pomaks ) who largely settled there before and after the turn of the century and have the same lower Tfr.
    I really enjoyed this thread.

  37. @Agathoklis

    There were 8-10M Greeks who lived in culturally/politically Greek states in the age of Alexander the Great. There are 12M Greeks who live in a culturally/politically Greek state today (Greece and Cyprus). Not even a doubling.

    • Replies: @songbird
    , @J
  38. Cicerone says:
    @melanf

    That has no effect on the fertility rate though.

  39. Charon says:
    @Hail

    We are certainly not one ethnicity in any meaningful sense.

    Pretty much anywhere I go in this land of ours, I can count on white people being friendly, or at the very least civil. Unfortunately I’m unable to maintain a similar expectation with any other ‘ethnicity’. I’d say that’s meaningful.

    Separately, more in line with the principal topic here, I join with a few other commenters who are fairly horrified by the notion of a planet groaning under the weight of 10 billion humans, much less 100 billion.

    Before an online sperg jumps on me, I’m talking about things like environmental depredations and vanishing species. One day we may finally respect the amazing range of animal life this planet had. But much of it will be gone.

    • Replies: @songbird
    , @Anonymouse
  40. LondonBob says:
    @prime noticer

    You obviously haven’t used tinder much. The STD thing is really a homosexual phenomenon.

    • Replies: @RadicalCenter
  41. Yes, core Sunni Turk TFR is around 1.7. Turkish ethnic identity is arguably quite shallow and artificial. Around 150 years ago, the word “Turk” was derogatory and was synonymous with Turcophone rural peasants that adhered to Turkic tribal customs and sometimes even to traitors to the Ottoman Sultan. Note, the semi-nomadic Turkic tribes would often be targeted by the Ottoman state for their non-sedentary lifestyle and then as a reaction they would often side with rebels or invaders. This group of Ottoman subjects simply belonged to the Muslim millet which included all the other Muslims in the Umma such as Kurds, Arabs etc. There was no sense of there being a separate Turkish ethnos or genos as perhaps defined by people like Anthony D. Smith.

    It is this artificiality which probably allowed Kemal to change, almost overnight, the characters in their language, significantly change ancient customs and symbols, almost banish religion from public life, got rid of Sharia and the Caliph and significantly curtailed madrassas. Not surprisingly, Turkish identity has changed again, incorporating a strong Islamist element, under Erdogan.

  42. @Bliss

    Well that passage is explicitly referring to the workings of the Kingdom of Heaven, not some demographic trend that will come true in the future. Add to that the fact that your reference points are completely arbitrary, Euros (particularly nordics) weren’t always most populous before that passage was written, and Africans surely not always least populous. We might as soon declare now to be the starting point in our interpretation, so a spectacular European comeback is inevitable!

    I don’t wanna see what Church you go to if you think clown world is what Heaven looks like, I have a feeling there would be a lot of bloody rams’ heads, altars with bronze bulls above a firepit, etc.

    • Replies: @Bliss
  43. Very interesting article, although I hope the folly of trends sets in soon and sub saharans will reach 4 billion around the same time that the women’s 100m converges with the men’s.

    And I also think it’s a bit unfair to call the leadership of the imperium superstitious when according to the lore humanity unambiguously owes its survival to the god emperor, heresy is a legitimately grave threat to humanity’s existence.

    • Replies: @Cutler
  44. songbird says:
    @Bliss

    3. Persia had just 7 million people and Arabia had just 4.2

    It is an interesting question what will happen to Arabia when it runs out of oil, or if fusion becomes mainstream. I suppose in the latter case they will still have energy for desalinization plants, so maybe they should be hoping for it.

    • Replies: @Bliss
  45. songbird says:
    @Charon

    I’m talking about things like environmental depredations and vanishing species.

    When it comes to elephants and apes, I suppose Africans might make some sort of argument like, well, you killed your cave-lions and extinct megafauna.

  46. songbird says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    Makes one wonder about Greek genes. If you add up all the fractional Greeks. Kind of like how there are many, many more copies of Indio genes, post Columbian exchange.

    • Replies: @RadicalCenter
  47. songbird says:
    @Yevardian

    Pollution is really an energy problem. In theory, it can be solved, and it seems to be being solved, since in many cases, rivers and air are cleaner now than in the past.

    As to ethnic conflict, I suspect that in the end, globohomo will try to make us all forcefully miscegenate. This has been done before in Paraguay and Haiti. It is amazing how people with mixed DNA seem to be instant globalists.

    For instance, the other day, I heard an Arab, with a rather funny idea. He had taken a DNA test, and found out that he was 3% Irish, and some odd percent Nigerian. And now he claimed Irish people could not possibly object to him and others invading their country, without being racists. Obviously if it was not noise, it meant his ancestors had pillaged the Irish coasts in the past, or helped finance such pillaging.

    A lot of Arabs also have Russian DNA…

    • Replies: @RadicalCenter
  48. Bliss says:
    @Athletic and Whitesplosive

    Well that passage is explicitly referring to the workings of the Kingdom of Heaven

    The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you. Luke 17:20-21

    What part of the above don’t you understand? What are these “workings of the Kingdom of God” you speak of? If the Kingdom is God is unobservable how could it’s “workings” be known?

    not some demographic trend that will come true in the future.

    Of course captain obvious. You must be retarded if you think I didn’t know that.

    I have a feeling there would be a lot of bloody rams’ heads, altars with bronze bulls above a firepit, etc.

    That must be the Levantine/Phoenician/Canaanite religion you speak of. Right? You know, the cruel, barbaric religion that believed in a god who could only be appeased by the sacrifice of innocent children. Sound familiar to you? Isn’t that what you believe? Correct me if I am wrong.

  49. Bliss says:
    @songbird

    The Saudis are not waiting for fusion energy:

    https://www.neom.com/

    WELCOME TO
    NEOM

    The world’s most ambitious project:
    an entire new land, purpose-built for a new way of living

    AS THE SUN RISES OVER NEOM, IT WILL GLINT AGAINST VAST FIELDS OF SOLAR PANELS PAIRED WITH WIND TURBINES AND LIGHT UP ENORMOUS STRETCHES OF ENERGY GRIDS STORING POWER FOR GENERATIONS.
    All this being sufficient to supply all of NEOM and beyond with low-cost regenerative energy. The beams, bridges and archways of this grand destination will be immaculate, untainted by pollution. Buildings will remain pristine and the air fresh and clear. And NEOM scientists will pioneer the future of energy production, use and storage – for water, gas, oil, solar, wind, algae… and whole new kinds of energy the world has yet to hear of.

    Looking at that website Neom does look like the world’s most ambitious project. It is far more ambitious than any Chinese project even and they are the current champions in that department. I never expected the Wahabbis to be so into futurism. Let’s hope they can make this happen.

    • LOL: Alfred
    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  50. @Bliss

    Looking at that website Neom does look like the world’s most ambitious project.

    Mostly due to breathless PR, though. I mean, robot maids.

    https://www.arabianbusiness.com/construction/424840-glow-in-the-dark-sand-robot-maids-fake-moon-proposals-for-saudis-500bn-futuristic-city

    Doesn’t feel like it is serious. But I’ll be impressed if they accomplish some of it, at any rate.

  51. Blackpill thread.

    Whites go from largest group to smallest group.
    Christians get raped in demographics in Asia Minor.
    Negroes keep having more babies.

    The white developments in health and technology are being used to destroy whites.

    On the plus side, East Asia is doing worse than us despite being developped for less time. South asia will likely follow soon.

    • Replies: @Maciano
  52. Cutler says:
    @Athletic and Whitesplosive

    Do any actual demographers think Africa will hit 4 Billion ( there or there abouts ) by 2100 ?
    I have not read any who think this will come to pass and they are for the most part in agreement that the 2100 predictions are to distant to be accurate because 80 years provides a massive margin of error. Of course the 2050 figures are more likely but surely we ought to disregard the 2100 numbers.

  53. songbird says:
    3543140

    I think Neom is an interesting idea.

    In theory, it seems to be a new model of globalism – an attempt to harness foreign human capital on the level of a local, limited area – not by abolishing borders.

    Can it be made an attractive place? Is the climate even right? Is the idea even workable? Singapore isn’t exactly part of Malaysia. Or is it just some shell game for MbS to stay in power? Whatever the case is, it will certainly be interesting to see what happens.

  54. Andy says:

    Good thread. A few points: 1) of course, there are less Irish in Ireland today than in 1850 since most of them ended up in America. Not a bad thing for today’s Irish I suppose. It keeps the country beautiful without having too much density. Certainly the Irish are doing very well today, with one of the world’s highest per capita income, 2) I can’t imagine a world with 4 billion Subsaharan Africans. Happily, I will not be alive by then, 3) probably a lot of Turks are genetically descendant of the ancient Greeks. Certainly, the Turks of Turkey don’t look a lot like the Turkic peoples of Central Asia, 4) I agree that the maximum population that the Earth can support is probably a lot, far more than what environmentalists tell us. Personally, I aesthetically like wide-open spaces and don’t wish the Earth to be much more populated than it currently is.

    • Replies: @songbird
    , @RadicalCenter
  55. songbird says:
    @Andy

    Certainly the Irish are doing very well today, with one of the world’s highest per capita income

    Fact: Ireland was a better place when it was poorer. And the Irish are not doing well today – they are governed by feckless, malign globalists, intent on an invasion greater than that that which happened under the plantation system. Under that process, there was a limit to the good land, and the Irish were still needed as laborers. Globalism has no such constraints.

    Cromwell would have at least given the Irish Connacht. Now, their own pols are settling Arabs and Africans in those scenic places. In tiny villages which were tourist attractions, and in the Gaeltacht – the part of Ireland which is supposed to keep alive the Irish language and culture.

    No, the Irish are not doing well. In fact, they are doing worse than ever, but with less interpersonal violence, premature mortality, and nobody going hungry.

  56. Pericles says:
    @anonymous coward

    There are some striking similarities but I get the impression the White Death was strongly facilitated by (((Purdue Pharma))) making opioids readily available and prescribable. Was it the same thing in the SU?

  57. dfordoom says: • Website
    @songbird

    Fact: Ireland was a better place when it was poorer.

    Perhaps all human societies were better when they were poorer. Perhaps prosperity is really bad for us. Perhaps prosperity always leads to decadence and thence to destruction.

  58. @Erik Sieven

    If we in the West do not supply massive aid to Africa, hundreds of millions of Africans will starve or kill each other.

    It seems unlikely that we will be able to supply such aid fairly soon. As it is, much of the USA’s federal budget is borrowed, and this has been the case for almost all of the past thirty-five years — especially under Obama and Trump.

    Even the US fed gov’s dishonest on-the-books budget reveals that our rulers are borrowing one TRILLION dollars in FY 2019 out of $4.75 Trillion in spending. FY2020 looks about the same. We are back at the annual deficit levels of Obama’s first term (and his second term involved massive borrowing, too, just not as much).

    Certainly I hope that the next generation of Westerns is unWILLING to subsidize the dimwits in their mindless breeding, whether able to subsidize them or not. Then again, if we re not able to get the gov to stop subsidizing mindless breeding by our dimwits right here at home, what are the odds we’ll grow some balls and gain some common sense re Africa.

  59. @LondonBob

    Given that I was engaged to be married before Tinder was founded, I am glad to say that I’ve never visited Tinder. Given that it seems to be geared toward commitment-free animal hookups, I wouldn’t visit it if I were single, either.

    Doesn’t change the fact that your statement about STDs being a homosexual problem is completely untrue. Many millions of heterosexual people have STDs, most often one of the 200 varieties of HPV and not rarely herpes.

    Homosexuals presumably have a far higher rate of STD infection, including HIV infection, due to their disgusting unnatural and inherently unhygienic/unsafe practices (anal fissures, anyone?) and extreme promiscuity, but it is wrong to say that STDs are predominantly a homosexual problem.

    • Replies: @LondonBob
    , @Alfred
  60. @songbird

    Yep, good point.

    Large numbers of Italians in Italy, and Italian-Americans like me, have at least a smattering of Greek genes.

    All of my Italian-descended relatives who have taken genetic tests and told us their results, have Greek genes, usually just a few percent but in several cases 10-15%. These are people whose ancestors came from Italy (not Sicily) to the USA in the 1880s and 1890s, and have no family lore about Greek background at all.

    A caveat is that one of the two big genetic testing companies popular in the USA/Canada narrows it down only to “Greek / Balkan.”

    • Replies: @Agathoklis
  61. @songbird

    A source / evidence for the notion that a meaningful number of Arabs have Russian genetic background? Could be right, just want to see sources or examples.

    • Replies: @songbird
  62. @Andy

    Apparently there is reason to believe that Mr. Turkish Pride Caliph himself, Erdogan, has substantial Greek genes.

  63. @Reg Cæsar

    perhaps i should have said porncel, or pornosexual, which many guys under 40 are today. vastly different than the volcels of centuries gone past.

    porn is fast, cheap, always there, and you always get what you want, every time, since you’re in control. do the ROI comparison to spending tons of time, energy, and money chasing women just to go down dead ends over and over.

    lots of guys today are choosing to be porncels. now wait until the really good sex robots arrive. those birth rates are gonna plummet. in fact, i wonder what effect the current generation of sex dolls are already having.

    women, who can have sex any time they want, are having trouble getting boyfriends. so something very different is clearly going on now. after years of watching the stats, i’m now inclined to believe them. millenials have much less sex than any humans before them.

  64. @RadicalCenter

    Correct. Greeks and southern Italians/Sicilians have a strong genetic affinity because of an ancient shared genetic heritage primarily due to the Greek migrations prior to the Classical period.

    The Greeks in the West: genetic signatures of the Hellenic colonisation in southern Italy and Sicily

    https://www.nature.com/articles/ejhg2015124?foxtrotcallback=true

    Ancient and recent admixture layers in Sicily and Southern Italy trace multiple migration routes along the Mediterranean

    https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-01802-4

  65. mal says:

    The Irish had the misfortune of living next to the English. In terms of deaths caused, between the starving of the Irish, Indians (on both continents), Opium Wars, British Empire will give Mao a run for his money. American colonists had the good sense of getting out early from that death camp. Sure, British look all civilized and gentle on TV shows, and the accent is enchanting. Civilized tea drinking makes the show, gassing of the Kurds afterwards – not so much.

    Anyway, future will indeed be exciting and interesting in the coming decades. With half the planet’s human population living in Sub Saharan Africa (and India), those places will become economic center of the planet. Economic power is entirely dependent on consumption, and consumption depends on human bodies available to consume. So Africa will win this body count race, at least this century.

    The good news for Planet Uganda is that humans are becoming superfluous to actual production. While Singularity is nonsense, I have no doubt the general intelligence AI will hit IQ of 100 by 2050 or sooner. Given that expert AI systems are already better than humans in their respective fields (diagnosing cancer, flying planes, driving cars, etc), vast majority of manufacturing of goods and services will be done by robots. The only real job on Planet Uganda will be to consume the output – hello Basic Income. Since robots dont care about money (try giving your toaster $100 bill – you will not impress it), robot owners won’t care about money either. In a world of negative interest rates, money will not matter to capitalist producers because anybody will be able to borrow a billion dollars or whatever to build a robot factory if interst rate is negative 5%. This will be massively deflationary (deflation is contraction of credit relative to goods and services provided – aside from default, nothing eliminates credit like self repaying loans). Consumption will go from ~60-70% of the economy to 90%+. Think video game becoming real life – it costs 0 game gold to make Magic Sword but you still need game gold to keep track of Magic Sword inventory and to gate keep players from doing silly things.

    The bad news for Planet Uganda is that Africa is home to strategic mining and refining complexes. This is fine today because current consumer California hipster doesn’t need to worry that every Green Tesla that he buys kills three kids in Africa in a toxic cobalt mine runoff – they are poor and far away. On Planet Uganda, a coalition of rabid environmental fanatics and well off consumer Africans will shut down civilization critical enterprises such as cobalt refineries. This is a major problem.

    Also, robots may not care about money, but they do care about cobalt. Very much so. And this is why our wise and kind corporate overlords are interested in space mining all of a sudden. On Planet Uganda, space will be the only place to build.

    • LOL: LondonBob
    • Replies: @EldnahYm
  66. songbird says:
    @RadicalCenter

    Let me say Slavic rather than Russian to make it more open-ended, but Roxelana, for instance, was said to originally be from Ruthenia.

    From around 16th-19th century, a common estimate is about a million slaves taken from Europe. Many seem to have been taken from Eastern Europe, but expeditions were wide-ranging. White women were especially sought after as is recorded in prices. Many were sought as wives, so I am sure there is some detectable, albeit small, signal in many Arabs, from this, even excluding other events, like the Moorish or Ottoman invasions.

    Similarly, I think many Arabs have some detectable amount of sub-Saharan DNA. If you add in other factors such as the incipient universality of Islam and how widespread the Arabic language is, as well as their seeming conquest of much of Europe, and their common distaste for work, I think Arabs are easy converts to globalism. Unfortunately, at least for them, their TFR is falling, which perhaps makes them easy prey for other groups.

    • Replies: @AP
  67. Mr. XYZ says:
    @Cicerone

    They would still have Greek DNA, no?

    • Replies: @Agathoklis
  68. Mr. XYZ says:
    @Malenfant

    Now imagine that this doubling has not affected all nations equally. Imagine that this new world contains a far higher relative proportion of Africans, Indians, Ultra-Orthodox Jews, and the Amish. (Mormon fertility isn’t far above replacement these days. It has declined sharply in recent years, and this decline shows no signs of abating.)

    I thought that Indians (even those in India) don’t reproduce that much nowadays either?

    • Replies: @Malenfant
  69. songbird says:
    @RadicalCenter

    If we in the West do not supply massive aid to Africa, hundreds of millions of Africans will starve or kill each other.

    It seems unlikely that we will be able to supply such aid fairly soon.

    I’m not sure state-support is even needed for the 2100 projections. I’ve been thinking particularly about cricket farms, and how it is all done with robots. It would be pretty easy to scale up, with gigantic Amazon-style warehouses. All that is really needed is the support of international corporations. They might do it in trade for natural resources, or as part of some virtue-signaling scheme, where each purchase feeds ten Africans.

  70. Mr. XYZ says:
    @Bliss

    Are Pakistanis and Bangladeshis included among Indians? If so, wouldn’t a better term for this be South Asians?

    • Agree: Bliss
    • Replies: @Really No Shit
  71. Mr. XYZ says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    Seems obviously dysgenic, though there might be some non-evident considerations I’m missing.

    AFAIK, the logic behind this was a principle of fairness. As in, it was perceived in the late 20th century as being unfair to deny children child support due to their illegitimacy.

    Mendeleev’s was a simple model.
    Also he wasn’t including Galicia.

    He also wasn’t including Subcarpathian Ruthenia or Ottoman Armenia or (Ottoman) Pontus or Constantinople or Mongolia or Xinjiang.

    My guess is you’d have had ~550 million: 400M core Slavs + 100M Central Asians (most of the increase accruing to Kazakhs) + 50M sundry Caucasians, Moldovans, Balts.

    25M for Caucasians, Moldovans, and Balts sounds much more realistic, no?

    Most likely. Half the very limited number of mosques in both Saint-Petersburg and Moscow are late Tsarist era constructions.

    That’s around the time that the first mosques started to appear in Britain.

    Do you think that Russia is going to have much more Hindus and Buddhists in this scenario as well?

    Also, as a side question, how many Russian Jews (also, out of a total of how many?) do you think are going to be living outside of the (former–it was abolished by the Russian Provisional Government in 1917) Pale of Settlement right now in this scenario?

    I know that in real life something like 4 out of 5 Soviet Jews were living outside of the former Pale of Settlement in May 1941 but with this figure being reduced to 1 out of 2 Soviet Jews in 1959 as a result of the Holocaust wiping out most of the Jewry in the Pale of Settlement (though about 1.0-1.5 million of them did, in fact, manage to evacuate in time in 1941-1942 and thus survived the Holocaust). Interestingly enough, nowadays Russia has more than three times Ukraine’s Jewish population–with Belarus’s Jewish population being almost nonexistent right now (less than 10,000, or about 0.1% of Belarus’s total population).

    Recently discussed this elsewhere.

    Where exactly (as in, which blog post and comment thread) is that comment of yours from?

    So, in scenario we’re discussing:

    SPB: 30-35M

    Moscow: 15-20M (~i.e. what it actually is today)

    SPB was bigger than Moscow – 2.3M vs. 1.8M on the eve of WW1, IIRC – and growing quicker. And probably would have kept its lead, just as NY did. 90% of financial activity was in SPB relative to Moscow. Moscow would have been the spiritual center, as well as a major manufacturing hub. Perhaps also bolder infrastructure development; construction on the original Moscow Metro began in 1914, while SPB had no metro plans at the outbreak of WW1.

    There were some discussions in Nicholas II’s circles about moving the capital back to Moscow, in line with neo-Muscovite artistic sentiment. Long shot, but if that had happened, Moscow and SPB would have ended up truly level pegging, I would guess.

    In reality, what happened is that after Bolshies moved capital to Moscow, SPB and Moscow swapped positions while keeping the same approximate ratio, though now loaded in favor of Moscow. But it was really the Siege of Leningrad that permanently destroyed SPB as a competitor to Moscow. Ever since, it has been been more Russia’s biggest millionik than its “northern capital”, IMO. The post-Soviet period beat in the last nail in its coffin (almost all the rich, repatriates, etc. went to Moscow, not banditized SPB).

    My personal belief is that this discontinuity between the two cities was caused by God punishing SPB for having hosted the fulcrum point of the Bolshevik Revolution. However, recent data shows that in the past few years, population growth in SPB has started to exceed Moscow’s. Perhaps a century old curse has been lifted.

    Was losing several hundred thousand people or so in the Siege of Leningrad *that* devastating for St. Petersburg? I mean, most of St. Petersburg’s population survived this siege, no?

    Also, your projections here sound reasonable, though it’s worth noting that New York appears to be much closer to other major US urban centers (Boston, Philadelphia, Baltimore, the Washington DC area, Pittsburgh, Cleveland, even Chicago) than St. Petersburg is. St. Petersburg is sort of in the middle of nowhere–in part due to its extremely northern location. Granted, I get the logic in people moving en masse to the capital, but still, if the capital is in the middle of nowhere, well, it isn’t exactly encouraging.

    I suppose that one good test for this would be to see just how many people will move to Indonesia’s new planned capital in Borneo–which likewise appears to be in the middle of nowhere.

    Kiev: 7M

    Possible–especially if it will be made the capital of a Ukrainian autonomous region in Russia in this scenario.

    Odessa: 4M

    Odessa would have still been much bigger than it is today – only increased by 2x (!) over 20th century – but I revised my opinion it would be Russia’s third city, because I looked at its demographic history and saw that it was growing more slowly than a bunch of other places even during the 19th century.

    There’d also be vigorous competition from places like Krasnodar, Sochi, and Crimea due to greater freedom of movement. Without being correlated into Siberian iceboxes, Russians would be seeking to go to those places in much greater numbers, just as they have done since 1991 (population of Krasnodar and Sochi has doubled since then).

    Conversely, there would be another interesting effect. While the biggest metropolises will be twice bigger, and the southern cities will be multiple times bigger, the far northern and deep Siberian cities will likely be no more populated than they are today. Possibly even less. For instance, quite possible that Perm – a city that grew largely on the military-industrial complex in Soviet times – would only have 500,000 people, not a million.

    TBH, I wonder if 2-3 million for Odessa would have been somewhat more realistic. That said, though, I generally agree with your analysis in regards to everything here.

    BTW, how many people do you think that Constantinople would have had right now had Russia avoided the Bolshevik coup, remained in WWI until the very end, and acquired it after the end of the war? FTR, I don’t think that the US would have looked very favorably at a Russian expulsion of Constantinople’s Muslim population–so it’s probably not going to happen in a scenario where the US still enters WWI.

    In addition, do you think that Odessa would have been Russia’s fourth-largest city in this scenario or would some other city have been the fourth–with Odessa being in fifth place or lower? (I’m presuming that Kiev would, of course, be number three.)

    Also, how many people do you think that cities such as Riga, Tallinn, Vilnius, and Kaunas are going to have right now in this scenario? In addition, I was wondering if the Baltics are going to see even more Russian/East Slavic migration in this scenario than they did in real life. At the very least, Estonia has an average IQ that isn’t that much lower than Moscow’s and if Estonia will remain a part of Russia, one would think that its high quality of life would be attractive for a good number of Russians, no? (BTW, I’m presuming that Russia would have still eventually lost both Poland and Finland, correct?)

    As a side note, I looked at a topographic map of Ottoman Armenia and Pontus and the topography there (mostly extremely high mountains with a very narrow coastal area) would probably prevent large-scale population expansion there. I don’t think that Russians/Eastern Slavs are going to be particularly willing to move to extremely mountainous areas in eastern Anatolia, and as I said the amount of coastal territory with a low elevation in this area (Pontus) is very, very small. In fact, this is probably why northeastern Turkey has no cities that have a population of one million or more right now. The largest is Samsun and the next largest is Trebizond, I believe. Neither has a population of one million or more and Trebizond doesn’t even have a population of half a million.

    • Replies: @Skeptikal
    , @Philip Owen
  72. -I thought some cossacks and old believers are russian “amish” with high fertility.

    ” There are a total of 2 million old believers in Russia, and out of that some 200,000 are ultra-orthodox old believers, who don’t have much contact with the outside world.

    Most of them are scattered around in the Siberian provinces of Krasnoyarsk, Irkutsk, HMAO, Tyva, Altay, Amur, and Khabarovsk. They constitute only 0.1 to 0.2% of the total Russian population.

    If you check the Provincial Statistics Site of the Krasnoyarsk Krai, you can see that the birth rate of “ultra-orthodox” old believer villages are 4 to 5 times higher than the surrounding villages.

    Although they are getting some media attention now, earlier they were almost completely forgotten by the government. Recently during the 2002 and 2010 Censuses, some of their villages were counted. No information exists for those who live deep inside the Taiga. For example, several hundreds of old believers live in the Tannu Ola and Sayan mountains of Tyva, but none of them were counted during the 2010 Census.

    One reason why some of the Provincial authorities count the more accessible old believer villages now is to show Putin that their birth rates are higher than the surrounding provinces. For example, up to 2008 Krasnoyarsk was having more deaths than births. When they started counting the births and deaths in the old believer villages, suddenly the province became one of the few regions in Russia with natural population growth. ”

    -amish populatuin growth:

    Year Pop. %±
    1920 5,000 —
    1928 7,000 40.0%
    1936 9,000 28.6%
    1944 13,000 44.4%
    1952 19,000 46.2%
    1960 28,000 47.4%
    1968 39,000 39.3%
    1976 57,000 46.2%
    1984 84,000 47.4%
    1992 125,000 48.8%
    2000 166,000 32.8%
    2008 221,000 33.1%
    2010 249,000 12.7%

    from this i can deduce that the Amish have a growth rate of over 5% a year.
    more than 6.3% from 2008-2010.
    so here is where my equation comes in from there growth rates lets conservatively assume a 5% yearly growth rate this means that there population will easily double every 20 years.

    2010 250,000
    2030 500,000
    2050 1m
    2070 2m
    2090 4m
    2110 8m
    2130 16m
    2150 32m
    2170 64m
    2190 128m

    -in USA there is also 50 000 hutterites , 500 000 mennonites with quite high fertility.

    About jews:

    Ultra-Orthodox Jews are what ignorant people pejoratively call “black-hatters;” there are many different sects, from Chabad to Satmar, all divided based on traditions, theology, structure, and place of origin. One thing they all share in common however, is having a lot of kids.

    8 kids, to be exact.

    That’s right, the average Ultra-Orthodox Jewish women will have, in her lifetime, 8 kids, one of the highest, if not the highest, fertility rates of any group in the world. To provide some contrast, in Niger, the fastest-growing country in the world, the average woman has 7 kids.

    According to Professor Comenetz at the University of Florida,

    In America too, where the Jewish population is stable or declining, Ultra-Orthodox Jewish numbers are growing rapidly.

    The Ultra-orthodox population doubles every 20 years, which…may make the Jewish community not only more religiously observant but more politically conservative…the Ultra-orthodox population in 2000 was about 360,000, 7.2 per cent of the approximately 5 million Jews in the U.S.

    But in 2006, demographers now estimate the number had grown to 468,000 or 9.4 per cent.

    8 kids on average works out to about a 6% growth rate per year. Assuming a base population of 510,000 Ultra-Orthodox Jews in the USA and UK in 2006, by the year 2050 there will be approximately…6,622,595 Ultra-Orthodox Jews.

    There are only about 5,800,000 total Jews in the USA today.

    And what would their population be in 2100? 121,989,235, about the population of the UK and France combined (Note: This does not even take into account the 700,000-strong Israeli community, whose inclusion would raise the population projection to 15,712,433 and 289,425,442 people in 2050 and 2100 respectively).

    • Replies: @BlackFlag
    , @Dmitry
  73. It’s the population density, stupid

    Given the right climate, nutrients, sunlight, growing medium and propagating entity, plants grow and multiply. Plants do not care if there isn’t adequate space to produce young. Just look at the rainforest and that pot of Aloe Vera. Given the right conditions, both will multiply and grow denser and denser.

    The fittest survive, that is the law of nature. Plants abide by this rule. Each shoot will try to outgrow the other, spreading their influence as wide as they can. The weaker ones eventually die out as their reach for sunlight or nutrients diminish.

    Singapore is a fine country with top notch education, medical and childcare facilities. The people are among the richest nationality in the world. We have the right conditions to propagate, we do not lack resources and wealth. Looking at it from the scientific point of view, Singaporeans can have a lot of children. Singaporean couples can get married without getting a HDB flat first. Couples can have children without their own ‘love nest’. Couples can have 3 children or more living in a 67sqm apartment. Couples can have children without finishing their university program. Couples can have children without establishing their careers. Or without having a high income. If any Singaporean says we can’t do that, he is lying. Many of our parents did that. Their children turned out alright, people like you and me. Though times have changed, each generation has their unique challenges and can be overcome. It can be done, it is proven but Singaporeans are not having children. Why?

    Humans are not plants. We are subconsciously aware of our need of space. Every human being needs physical space to live, not only living space but a right amount of personal space to make the environment conducive for having children. Consider this:

    Macau, Hong Kong, Singapore.

    What do they have in common? The three countries (or city-states if you like to call them) have the lowest fertility rate in the world, Hong Kong (1.09), Macau (0.92), Singapore (0.78) and the most super crowded, Macau (19610/km2), Singapore (7362km2), Hong Kong (6452 km2).

    Coincidence? “What do you think?”

    I think that we have overlooked the importance of space as a correlation to fertility rate. Wide open spaces make child-rearing more attractive. Bringing up a large family in a tiny 67sqm HDB flat is a struggle, even if you can fold away your bed during the day. A high density population also means very stiff competition for child care resources, education, future housing and good jobs for our young. Our people are subconsciously reacting to an environment which is not conducive for their young and protecting them by not producing at all. In short, the people do not see a future for their young in Singapore.

    With the lowest fertility and the highest population density in the world, we are left in a catch-22 situation whereby we need foreigners to support the aging population because we are not producing, because the influx of foreigners created an environment unsuitable to have children. It looks like we have big decisions to make.

  74. @Mr. XYZ

    Correct. But biology does not necessarily equate to ethnicity. There are many Americans of German ancestry but they are hardly ethnically German because they have lost their ability to converse in the German language. Of course, there are other cultural markers but that is the most important one.

    • Replies: @Mr. XYZ
  75. Muggles says:

    This truism may shed light: if you want more of something, subsidize it; less of it, tax it.

    Now in a general sense “tax” and “subsidy” can mean simply economic incentive and disincentive.

    Economists have measured the effect on increasing household wealth on birthrates. As nations prosper birthrates drop, even when religious objections to birth control/abortion exist.

    African birthrates haven’t dropped since larger families aren’t an economic drag, usually. More cousins and clan members to mooch off of. Usually some food subsidies. The ancient “safety net” of large families in old age. Little marginal cost to adding more babies. Some under your roof, some in other roofs. Only when starvation limits families is there a “tax.”

    Contrast this to other places. More children, more expense. Even with some State subsidy your housing gets crowded, your income is divided further, household costs go up much more than subsidy does. In the USA originally the tax system let children’s Personal Exemptions largely zero out lower and middle class income tax burden. For the past 40 years this has disappeared, now entirely gone. No tax savings w/ children. So in general, look at costs and benefits.

    • Replies: @RadicalCenter
  76. Mr. XYZ says:
    @Agathoklis

    TBH, I actually do consider Americans such as Doris Day to be both ethnically German and also be part of a larger “white American” nation/ethnicity.

    • Replies: @Agathoklis
  77. @songbird

    IN the 70’s and 80’s , Ireland was a consumer society without the money to consume what they desired, nor live the glamorous lifestyles that imported TV programs presented.
    Once they had the money and the freedom it conferred, they went full globalist.

  78. AP says:
    @songbird

    Let me say Slavic rather than Russian to make it more open-ended, but Roxelana, for instance, was said to originally be from Ruthenia.

    She was from what is now Ivano-Frankivsk oblast in Galicia, Western Ukraine. The name continues to be used in Ukraine.

    • Replies: @songbird
  79. songbird says:
    @AP

    The name continues to be used in Ukraine.

    That’s interesting. I didn’t know that.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  80. @Finnishdude

    This describes California as well. But nobody is going to take the measures that need to be taken to even ameliorate these problems for actual Americans.

  81. @Muggles

    Appreciate your analysis. Just gotta quibble on one point.

    Before the Trump tax bill that took effect Jan. 1, 2018, the federal government offered an income tax credit (not merely a deduction) of $1,000 per child.

    The bill increased that to $2,000 per child. I think it should be much larger, and it should go until age 18, not 17.

    But the point is that if one earns enough to actually pay federal income tax — which tens of millions of people don’t — there ARE federal tax savings in the USA due to having children.

    • Replies: @Muggles
  82. Bliss says:
    @Finnishdude

    I think that we have overlooked the importance of space as a correlation to fertility rate.

    True dat. Urbanization correlates well with lower fertility rates. The rapid urbanization of China will be more negative for its fertility rate than the one-child policy ever was.

    The three countries (or city-states if you like to call them) have the lowest fertility rate in the world, Hong Kong (1.09), Macau (0.92), Singapore (0.78)

    Wow. Good thing they have plenty immigrants coming in.

    • Replies: @dfordoom
  83. @Mr. XYZ

    Rubbish. If we refer to the typical ethno-symbolist schema of defining an ethnic group:

    -a collective proper name
    -a myth of common ancestry
    -shared historical memories
    -one or more differentiating elements of common culture such as kinship, religion, language, national origin, and historicity
    -an association with a specific “homeland”
    -a sense of solidarity for significant sectors of the population.

    Where would someone like Doris Day fit into that? Perhaps the only element would be some vague memory of common descent with German people (via her grandparents) but that is about it. She would simply be an American with German descent.

    • Replies: @Mr. XYZ
  84. Muggles says:
    @RadicalCenter

    re: Radical Center.

    If you look at the approx. 1954 tax laws you will find that w/ the standard deduction and personal exemptions for parents/children very few middle class taxpayers had any income tax liability.

    The personal exemptions and std. deduction didn’t index w/ inflation so over the decades removed much of the income tax savings. Yes, tax credits were added for children but under current tax law the only tax savings (unless very low income) is that $2K tax credit/child. That isn’t much for an average tax bill of say $12-20K total. No exemption for parents and very few unless paying a lot of mortgage interest, can claim itemized deductions.

    Basically children (unless low income) are a huge economic drag both for taxation and for other things like education. Private schools (in large metro areas, a necessity) aren’t subsidized. Nor is health insurance. Overall “children added are taxed heavily (in economic terms)” unless you are a net welfare recipient or low wage household. No incentive for average or middle class parents to have children, just more expenses. Unlike Third World households where over breeding adds little to no cost and likely entails some free benefits, or at least possible retirement income.

    • Agree: reiner Tor
    • Replies: @RadicalCenter
  85. @Muggles

    These are excellent points, thank you, Muggles. I was just responding to the notion that there’s no federal income tax benefit to having children. There is, just not enough and not entirely for the people who we should be subsidizing and incentivizing.

    On a related note, I am not sure whether the fed child tax credit is “refundable.” As you know, “refundable” is federal tax doublespeak for “getting ‘back’ more than you paid in the first place.”

    If the fed child tax credit is refundable, then we are subsidizing additional births by people who do not earn enough to pay any federal income tax at all (fed income tax proper, not Medicare and Social Security taxes). Many of that group are fine people, many are reasonably intelligent and industrious, etc. But many are not.

    And in either event there’s little reason to think that we benefit, on balance, from more children being born to such people — especially given how many of the people filing fed tax returns but paying “less than zero” (getting more than they paid in) are single mothers with no father(s) in sight. This isn’t even a moral judgment, just a contention that society generally doesn’t benefit when we use tax policy to subsidize / incentivize more births by women who are not married and often are not living in a stable arrangement with any one of the children’s fathers.

  86. Mr. XYZ says:
    @Agathoklis

    Shouldn’t DNA be included in your list here, though?

    • Agree: RadicalCenter
    • Replies: @Agathoklis
  87. EldnahYm says:
    @mal

    The Irish had the misfortune of living next to the English. In terms of deaths caused, between the starving of the Irish, Indians (on both continents), Opium Wars, British Empire will give Mao a run for his money. American colonists had the good sense of getting out early from that death camp. Sure, British look all civilized and gentle on TV shows, and the accent is enchanting. Civilized tea drinking makes the show, gassing of the Kurds afterwards – not so much.

    It’s the English who have suffered the misfortune of living next to the Irish. If this were not so one would not see so many Irish migrating to England(and Scotland by the way), not to mention the rest of the former British colonies, and doing their best to ruin them(successfully ruined in the case of the U.S.). Even the conflicts within Ireland like the Troubles have much to do with smuggling of goods from Britain into that land. Irish complain all the time about how terrible the English are, yet their actions invariably show they can’t get enough of them.

    The English landlords were dicks during the Irish famine sure, but they can hardly be blamed for an oomycete ruining crops, or for that matter the Irish decision to become single crop dependent. If that’s the worst that the English can be blamed for, they should be celebrated as benevolent overlords.

    The later Qing dynasty was plagued with revolts and famines, the casualties of the Opium Wars are utterly trivial compared to the Taiping rebellion, Dungan Revolt, or numerous famines which occurred. The Opium Wars might be looked at now as a national humiliation, but in terms of casualties they are hardly worth mentioning.

    The majority of New World Indian deaths happened in more populated South America, so if we’re going to blame someone it’s the Spanish. Even in North America the English were hardly the only colonists around and therefore can only share a portion of the blame. Accidental death due to disease is qualitatively different than Maoist famines anyhow.

    India had positive population growth during the British period. It’s normal for countries that experience population booms to have famines in Malthusian conditions. India undoubtedly had plenty of famines before the British came along. India’s economic growth today is almost entirely attributable to English language proficiency and the green revolution. Anglos have nothing to apologize for to ingrate Indians.

    The Kurds are a race of brigands who cynically switch sides in any conflict and were enthusiastic participants in massacres and ethnic cleansing of Armenians and Assyrians.

  88. songbird says:

    Today there is a woke movement to shrink Europe on maps, but I wonder if Europe would be less woke, if it actually were shrunk on maps.

    People see these sun-belt countries, and on a Mercator projection, they all look smaller they are. Looks like there is so much space in Europe to absorb everyone, and it seems that way in other ice countries too. Africa looks tiny compared to Eurasia. Russia looks invincible.

    I’m not too sure that it’s good that sun peoples see ice people’s countries as big places either.

    I will also say that I think what is more important than geography or almost any other subject is demographics, and students should be taught more about demographics.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  89. Dmitry says:
    @songbird

    Russia looks invincible. countries as big places either.

    Lol I have some image from your comment of the Mercator projection fooling the innocent and naive Africans to immigrate to Vorkuta because it looks like a lot of space there.

    Of course, the conclusion is predictable. Africans are too weak, spoilt and used to luxury. Their soft spirit can be broken in a week, and they will run back to Africa before the local drunk even has an opportunity to piss in the corridor of their apartment complex.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o3q2NXUsbVY

    • Replies: @songbird
    , @The Scalpel
  90. Dmitry says:
    @melanf

    Total fertility rate, however, is calculated by adding together age-specific fertility rates (i.e. divided number of people in each age group). So it should be independent of the population pyramid.

    Although it’s possible though there is a problem in the way it is reported, or calculated in these media reports.

  91. @songbird

    Why? It was the more violent groups who were exterminated according to archaeogenetics. Neolithic Scandinavians for example were ridiculousky violent and got wiped out by the less violent people from the Battle Axe culture.

    Click here to see how violent Scandinavian neolithic people were:

    http://www.dandebat.dk/eng-dk-historie7.htm

    • Replies: @songbird
  92. @Finnishdude

    Hey i just checked the Singstat data for this years Singapore demography. What is interesting is that Malays have a TFR of 1.84 compared to about 1 for Chinese and Indians. The reason probably is because Islam is more family orientated. Or they dont play status games so much.So i do not think that it is all about material conditions, since the material conditions for the races are similiar (dense HDB)

    The problem with the aging population can be solved by having a large expat population but not giving out citizenshp. Thus you can collect tax but dont have liability to pay for their retirement.

    • Replies: @Mr. XYZ
  93. AP says:

    The population ratio between Russia and the Ukraine fell from less than 3:1 to almost 5:1 since 1992. It is ironic that Ukrainian independence has been worse for Ukraine’s population balance vis-a-vis Russia

    This isn’t nearly as bad for Ukraine as you suggest. A lot of the population loss for Ukraine, the country, was the loss of ethnic Russians who would have been a fifth column. Is Ukraine somehow weaker or worse off vis a vis Russia now that it no longer has anti-Ukrainian ethnic Russians in Crimea within its borders?

    Loss of Russians leaves Ukraine better off, not worse off. Ukraine with over ten million Russians and defacto Russians was 1/3 of Russia’s population, Ukraine without them is between 1/4 and 1/5 of Russia’s population.

    What is the ratio of ethnic Ukrainians in Ukraine now vs. Russia now vs. in 1991?

    In 1989 there were 37.4 million ethnic Ukrainians in the Ukrainian SSR. That year there were 147.7 million people in Russia. So the ethnic Ukrainian population was 25.3% of Russia’s population.

    I’d guess currently there are about 32 million ethnic Ukrainians in Ukraine. Russia’s population is about 145 million. So the ethnic Ukrainian population is 22.1% of Russia’s population.

    Not a very dramatic difference.

    • Replies: @Mr. XYZ
    , @Alfred
  94. songbird says:
    @Sam Coulton

    Didn’t mean to actually suggest that earlier waves were peaceful.

    However, if I had a choice, I’d least like to come up against nomadic pastoralists. Judging from small evidence, some of my ancestors from the Middle Ages seem like they were pretty rough people, when it came to cows, and they had fixed residences. Most likely, they would have made mincemeat out of the Amish.

  95. songbird says:
    @Dmitry

    I can’t decide whether I would make Europe invisible on African maps or fill it with ice dragons.

    Vorkuta would be a great location for a deportation camp. Overstay a visa, or try to enter Europe illegally and spend a winter in Vorkuta, before being deported back.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  96. The Scalpel says: • Website
    @Dmitry

    That is one bleak looking place!

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  97. BlackFlag says:
    @Finnishdude

    But all these groups reject modern technology. Eventually they will overshoot their economic niche and be unable to afford such high reproduction.

    Unless they risk undergoing cultural changes that allow them to harness modern tech. Can they do that without damaging their fertility? Have some already tried?

  98. Mr. XYZ says:
    @AP

    I’d guess currently there are about 32 million ethnic Ukrainians in Ukraine. Russia’s population is about 145 million. So the ethnic Ukrainian population is 22.1% of Russia’s population.

    Shouldn’t you include Crimea (officially Russian) and the separatist-controlled Donbass (de facto Russian) in your calculations, though? They’d give Russia a slight boost right now–albeit one that probably isn’t that large.

    • Replies: @AP
  99. Mr. XYZ says:
    @Hong Xiu Quan

    Interestingly enough, I’ve previously read that Malays in Singapore have an average score of 495 on PISA. So, almost equivalent to (0.05 standard deviations lower than) the OECD average. I guess that Singapore must have skimmed the cream off of the Malay crop.

  100. @Mr. XYZ

    That is covered in kinship.

  101. Hail says: • Website

    The world population of Greeks has been steady at ~10 million since the age of Alexander the Great. Their percentage of the world total plummeted from ~5% to slightly more than 0.1% today.

    (As other commenters suggest,) How much of this change (or ‘non-change;’ apparent zero-net-growth) is a question of culture-identity and how much genes is interesting.

    A small example is that Paul of Tarsus (live circa AD 1 to 67), the great evangelist of the Christian religion. He was, by some plausible definitions, a Greek. He was an educated Greek speaker, and scholars say a native Greek speaker. Also a Roman citizen, which had solidly subsumed Greek citizenship by his time, of course. Yet if Paul of Tarsus’ genes survive in the present, they almost certainly are not in what are today called Greeks.

    • Replies: @Agathoklis
  102. @Hail

    That is a good point. Lucian (or Loukianos) the great satirist, rhetorician, novelist and short story writer was very likely born to a family that spoke Syriac and was probably Assyrian but his Hellenic education was so thorough that he is considered one of the great Attic stylists of all time. He also knew better than anyone during his age, Greek religious beliefs and practices. In all intents and purposes he was a Hellene.

    F.E. Peter’s, Harvest of Hellenism does a great job in showing how this acculturation process worked. Unfortunately, it is out of print.

    https://www.amazon.com/Harvest-Hellenism-History-Alexander-Christianity/dp/0760701296

    • Replies: @dfordoom
  103. @Finnishdude

    Macau, Hong Kong, Singapore.

    What do they have in common?

    All are East Asian, highly educated, liberated females who want nothing to do with local males.

    I think that we have overlooked the importance of space as a correlation to fertility rate. Wide open spaces make child-rearing more attractive. Bringing up a large family in a tiny 67sqm HDB flat is a struggle, even if you can fold away your bed during the day.

    For most of human history, families were raised in tents, wagons, boats or cabins measuring <5sqm.

  104. (9) So far as I can tell, the Latvians, Estonians, and Ashkenazi Jews are the only peoples with fewer people today than in 1914. It is ironic that they played the most disproportionate roles (per capita) in cementing Bolshevism in Russia. God must really hate commies.

    Jewish establishment policy during the 20th Century is claimed to have been good, leading to dominance of the West in the early 21st Century. It has actually been very bad.

    Counterinsurgency

  105. Willem says:

    1) there is quantity and quality, and while the former is much easier to define, the latter is much more important
    2) culture is overestimated, and since humans are the same everywhere, it does not really matter which population of a certain country grows faster than another. What matters is an even distribution of healthcare, possibilities, and ability to let your off-spring get a life that can be defined as ‘decent’. This world is incredibly rich in resources. No reason, except for greed, that say 5% of the world population owns 90% of everything that is produced worldwide.
    3) it surprises me that people like Anthony Karlin can’t see that the culture struggle is a class struggle. He surely seems bright enough, yet doesn’t even discuss class in this culture struggle analysis, as if class does not exist. Bright, yet blind…

    • LOL: Alfred
  106. ‘… Assuming a threefold expansion in all of these populations, we could have been looking to a Russian Empire or Republic with a further ~120M fully Russified Belorussians and largely Russified Ukrainians, for a total Slavic population of almost 400M…’

    This helps to explain the calculation of the Wilhelmine German General Staff that if war with Russia was delayed past 1916, it would be unwinnable.

    Given the German role in reintroducing Bolshevism into Russia, and of course their invasion of 1941-43, you could even say that the Germans did manage to defeat the Russian menace. The difficulty was of course that they lost the wars themselves as well.

    • Agree: Anatoly Karlin
    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
    , @Mr. XYZ
  107. Smith says:

    The demographics question can always be solved by cloning, genetics and eugenics, Warhammer 40K-style.

    What matters is the will, not how.

    And even on natural means, population will naturally breed faster if society and culture encourage it. In fact, hardship and poor livelihood might in fact increase birthrate.

    @Willem:
    Classic communist but class is a non-question. There will always be have and have-not, people aren’t equal and the same and they will remain so. An european is not the same as an asian, nor an african.

    What matters is that they contribute their part to the people/nation as a whole.

  108. @Curious

    ‘…Erdogan’s pan-Islamism is eroding the ethnic character of the country…’

    Well, that could be seen as a reversion to the norm. Anatolia was never mono-ethnic: not in classical times, not under Byzantine rule, and certainly not under the Ottomans. It was only under the secular Turkish Republic that ‘Turkey’ became synonymous with ‘Anatolia.’

    I like Turkey myself, but if the prediction is borne out, it’s really just going to mark a return to business as usual.

  109. dfordoom says: • Website
    @Agathoklis

    That is a good point. Lucian (or Loukianos) the great satirist, rhetorician, novelist and short story writer was very likely born to a family that spoke Syriac and was probably Assyrian but his Hellenic education was so thorough that he is considered one of the great Attic stylists of all time. He also knew better than anyone during his age, Greek religious beliefs and practices. In all intents and purposes he was a Hellene.

    It’s almost as if culture trumps genetics.

    • Replies: @Smith
  110. I another half a Century the DPRK will be younger and have a larger army then Worst Korea, having a higher TFR might turn out to be better then having a Nuke for Pyongyang
    Especially is Seul decides to go full Globo-Homo and turn the country into a multi-cultural hellhole, wouldn’t be surprised if it’s already happening given how obsessed with imitating the US they’ve been (for instance, ROK has huge circumcision rates after it was introduced by American doctors during the Korean War)

  111. Hail says: • Website

    An idea for a cool 26th demographic fact:

    Proto-Indo-European demographics circa 3000 BC vs. today’s Indo-European demographics (genetic vs. cultural vs. language).

    _____________

    My attempt to make this ambitious calculation:

    – circa 230,000 : Total Proto-Indo-European population in 3000 BC, before their waves of expansion began [0.5% to 1.0% of world population? in 3000 BC];

    – Of this grand proto-IE population total, we might fairly guess, based on later migration patterns, that a third of them went west and would become partial ancestors of the future ethnic groups of Europe — one third would be a pre-expansion population of 75,000 who later went west into Europe. [0.15% to 0.33% of world pop.] (assuming a world pop. for 3000 BC at 30 million, per from HYDE [2010].)

    (see below for how I made this calculation; would welcome thoughts on accuracy).

    – circa 400 to 500 million : Indo-European person-equivalents in Europe and North America alone (if Indo-European ancestry contributes 40 to 50% of the ultimate racial stock of the globe’s 1,000 million Europeans) by AD 2000. [7.5% of world population in AD 2000, a lot more still, by %, in AD 1900].

    [MORE]

    – circa 350 million+ more : Indo-European person-equivalents in the non-European world by those speaking an Indo-European language naively [ca. 1,750 million as of AD 2000] (if Indo-European ancestry contributes 20% of the ultimate racial stock of the globe’s 1,750 million IE-speakers who are not European) by AD 2000.

    – circa low hundreds of millions [?] more: Indo-European person-equivalents in the non-European world who do not speak an Indo-European language

    –> At least 1,000,000,000 Indo-European person-equivalents in the world by AD 2000 [16.5%] (and ca. 2,500,000 people having substantial IE ancestry [~40% of world population], and some number even higher than this being native speakers of an IE language).

    Are the Indo-Europeans the world’s most successful group over the past 5,000 years? That small group is today something like 15-20% of aggregate genetic ancestry; 40% of the global population has substantial IE ancestry.

    _____________

    Calculation derivation:

    [1] Mallory (1989)’s estimate of the pre-expansion Proto-Indo-European Urheimat land area, and [2] Indo-European-like, pastoralist Mongolia’s historical steady-state pastoralist population size (before modernization) of ca. 500,000+ = 0.33 people/sq. km.

    – Mallory:

    Consequently, we may postulate the size of the Proto-Indo-European homeland falling within the range of about 250,000-1,000,000 square kilometres, a figure which is in fair accord with most solutions to the homeland problem as suggested by both linguists and archaeologists.

    (From In Search of the Indo-Europeans: Language, Archaeology, and Myth (1989), by J. P. Mallory)

    Note that the midpoint of Mallory’s estimate is almost exactly the size of Ukraine (576,000 sq. km. without Crimea).

    – Mongolia:

    Mongolia’s pastoralist-majority population density in 1900 AD was 0.38 people per sq. km. (604,000 / 1,564,000 sq. km); subtracting the city of Ulan Bator’s 60,000 [?] at the time yields around 500,000+ as a pastoralist carrying capacity, or 0.33 pop./sq.km — giving it an error range, call it 0.25 to 0.4 pop./sq.km.

    Combining the two estimates — (0.25 to 0.40) x (250,000 to 1,00,000) — yields a Proto-Indo-European population size estimate of 62,500 to 400,000; midpoint estimate about 230,000.

  112. Smith says:
    @dfordoom

    Without genetics, no culture.

    You can teach a dog to run, it will never run as fast as a horse.

    • Replies: @iffen
  113. @Malenfant

    ‘A world of 100 billion Russians is at least conceivable. Likewise a world of 100 billion old-stock Americans, or 100 billion Englishmen. But these worlds are, sadly, not possible. The only remotely plausible 100 billion scenario — for some values of plausible — is a vision of hell.’

    Oh, I dunno. I imagine fifty billion Chinese with fifty billion properly trained black slaves could make for a reasonably civilized society. Perhaps not one you or I would find congenial — but that’s a different matter. After all, I probably wouldn’t care for tenth century Constantinople, either. That doesn’t make it hell.

  114. dfordoom says: • Website
    @Bliss

    Urbanization correlates well with lower fertility rates.

    That’s true. But I don’t think it’s lack of space that’s the problem. There are other evils associated with urbanisation. Too many distractions for one thing. And cities attract undesirables – grifters, sexual deviants seeking the anonymity of the city, criminals, intellectuals, artists, gamblers, drug dealers. So cities breed decadence and degeneracy.

    The anonymity of city life may be the biggest problem. Cities destroy the sense of community and connectedness. They destroy the sense of social responsibility. They encourage destructive individualism.

    But I don’t think space is a factor.

  115. dfordoom says: • Website
    @Willem

    it surprises me that people like Anthony Karlin can’t see that the culture struggle is a class struggle. He surely seems bright enough, yet doesn’t even discuss class in this culture struggle analysis, as if class does not exist.

    It’s an article of faith on the right, including the alt-right, that there’s no such thing as class and that anyone who thinks class is an issue is a dirty stinking commie.

    One of the many reasons the right, including the alt-right, is entirely useless.

    • Replies: @Smith
  116. Smith says:
    @dfordoom

    That’s real funny considering demographics is the ONLY worthwhile question.

    Culture, economy, ideologies all stems from demographics.

    The left forget that, which is why the left is always ruled by a rightist at the end of the days.

    • Replies: @Agathoklis
    , @dfordoom
  117. @Hail

    Proto Indo Europeans were already in Europe, Einstein. Ukraine and the Pontic Caspian steppe is in Europe, if you didn’t know.

    Talking about Europe with regards to Indo-Europeans is nonsense anyway, the vast majority of Indo Europeans migrated east in to Asia from Corded Ware and their “partial descendants” number over 1.5 billion.

  118. @Hail

    Cool calculations, but not atypical imo, you’d get similar order of magnitude leaps with Bantus, Neo-Mongoloids, etc.

  119. wise says:

    That all suspect, but not dareth spoken are words that point to a predator drone and or missile hitting the pentagon back on 09/11/2001.

  120. J says: • Website
    @Anatoly Karlin

    Classical Greece was severely depopulated after Alexander’s conquests in the East.

    Any Greek could get a good living in Egypt and other successor states by teaching Greek language and culture, or entering the local bureaucracies. Greece was emptied and its cities became insignificant villages. It is also probable that they underwent the first demographic transition in history.

    • Replies: @Agathoklis
  121. @Malenfant

    A world of 100 billion Russians is at least conceivable.

    They can barely support themselves right now.

    A lot of wishful thinking in this piece. “Decline in Islamic fertility”? Please.

  122. the Irish have an even more extreme and unique anti-record: There are fewer of them today (~6.6M in all Ireland) than in 1840 (8.5M)! I wonder what they did to anger God so.

    God`s wrath is clearly restricted to Irish who remained in Ireland.

    The Irish diaspora is of quite astonishing size – about the biggest ratio in the world if you compare the number (people abroad) divided by (people in the home country).

    Between 10 and 20 to 1?

    Even if you go no further than England, Scotland or Wales, I would have thought they make up at least 20% of the white population there on a proportional measurement. (E.g my good self, 3/8ths Irish at the great-grand parental level.)

    Wikipedia says there are about 33 million Irish Americans.

    The Irish saved British demography.

  123. Besides a few commentators here that have given a few statements about the true nature of low birthrates or low “fertility”, almost no one here seems to be serious about solving the low birthrate problem.

    The solution is really very simple in concept, but a bit harder to execute:

    Abolish Feminism. Abolish women’s rights. Abolish women’s education, right to work, right to vote and etc.

    The breeder population groups like Russians of Arkhangelsk, Russian Old Believers, Kosovo Serbs, Mormons, Amish, Haredi and etc all have in common the fact that their women are behaving as they are naturally supposed to; by giving birth and raising many kids. That is, they’re not getting “educated” or going to work at modern corporate jobs in large numbers (if at all).

    By chance or randomness, all those groups have ended up in circumstances where despite the many obstacles placed by “modernity”, and other unnatural dynamics, on women to interact with men how they’re naturally supposed to and to do what they’re supposed to.

    Of course, there are other circumstances such as devastating wars, famines, droughts and etc that can negatively affect birth rates, although in the modern world it is by far Feminism and women’s rights.

    I suspect though, since I’ve seen many white knights (some cucks as well, idk) going on about how things like porn, and the behavior of men are to blame for low birthrates, that you’ll start criticizing me. All I’ll say in advance is that I won’t even bother responding and that you guys need to learn the truth about the nature of women …

  124. @J

    Here we go again. The old canard.

    Genetic origins of the Minoans and Mycenaeans

    https://www.nature.com/articles/nature23310

    “Modern Greeks resemble the Mycenaeans, but with some additional dilution of the Early Neolithic ancestry. Our results support the idea of continuity but not isolation in the history of populations of the Aegean, before and after the time of its earliest civilizations.”

  125. @Marshall Lentini

    Very weird takes. Care to substantiate either one of them?

  126. LondonBob says:
    @RadicalCenter

    I said the surge in STDs is a homosexual problem, not that STDs are only a homosexual problem.

  127. @Smith

    Not necessarily but it is important in the age of mass democracy and economism. Everything stems from individual and collective power and self-preservation.

    From Macht und Entscheidung (Power and Decision) by Panagiotis Kondylis:

    “Drawing from anthropology, philosophy, sociology and history, concepts such as value, value-freedom and nihilism are explored. It is claimed that the infinite variety of human perceptions, beliefs, ideologies, i.e. world-views, are nothing more than an effort to give personal interests a normative form and an objective character, deriving from a “decision” on what means should be used, who should be a friend and who a foe, in the big “Hobbesian” struggle for what is the most primitive and common goal of all humans – self-preservation. Therefore, personal and/or group world-views and ideologies in general are used as a weapon in everyday struggle for the purpose of power claims and self-preservation. Social and historical being and becoming consist of transitory existences – regardless of whether they invoke Reason and ethics or not – seeking power (in any one or more of its countless forms). That is how Nature’s (and society’s) creatures are, and they cannot do otherwise.”

  128. @Colin Wright

    I have often thought along similar lines.

    Germany obviously failed at becoming world hegemon, as was its maximalist aim (though its attempts were respectable).

    But it pretty much succeeded if one views it as a resumption of the antediluvian race war between Germandom and Slavdom.

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
    , @Mr. XYZ
  129. @TheTotallyAnonymous

    …going on about how things like porn, and the behavior of men are to blame for low birthrates…

    A profoundly stupid comment. ‘Feminism’ and “women’s rights” were invented by men, precisely to make porn (and commitment-free sex) possible.

    So yes, men are to blame.

    You’re not really stupid enough to think that women up and ‘liberated’ themselves out of their own femininity, are you?

    • Replies: @TheTotallyAnonymous
  130. @Marshall Lentini

    A world of 100 billion Russians is at least conceivable.

    They can barely support themselves right now.

    Anatoly is looking rather thin of late.

    Panhandling
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    • Agree: Anatoly Karlin
  131. @Pericles

    White British and white Americans – indeed white Europeans – have steeply falling fertility, and it’s not because they prefer to enjoy a country with more space – it’s because they’re not optimistic about the future.

    This isn’t helped (to put it mildly) by a media pushing the idea that the world is doomed and you should stop breeding to save the planet, but there’s also advertising (standard family is now black male/white female), TV and film,education with its emphasis on white sin (slavery, holocaust, Sacco and Vanzetti, lynching – truly a broad historical education) – and above all, the on the ground reality of stagnant or falling wages, massively increased house prices, and mass immigration by people you don’t really want to bring kids up among, indeed you don’t want to live among them yourself, but can’t afford to move away from. Oh, and the push for confused young men and women to declare themselves homosexual, if not transgender.

    Here’s what one British supermarket is pushing.

    https://www.about.sainsburys.co.uk/making-a-difference/our-values/our-stories/2017/sainsburys-celebrates-black-history-month

    https://www.about.sainsburys.co.uk/making-a-difference/our-values/our-stories/2017/splashing-orange-into-the-rainbow-of-pride

    https://www.about.sainsburys.co.uk/making-a-difference/our-values/our-stories/2017/taking-pride-in-diversity

    “Allies are vital to making more colleagues aware of LGBT issues. In recent years, we have forged a productive mentoring relationship with the global consultancy company Accenture, which is helping to drive change within our business.”

    Nothing says diversity like Arthur Andersen.

    UK real median male wages have fallen over the last 20 years, real house prices up 2.5 times. Real GDP increased, but its not reflected in wages.

    The symptoms of whites are an attenuated form of what we’ve seen among Native Americans, Aborigines, First Nations Canadians – which raises an interesting question – what are the demographics of those groups? Have they managed to combine drug and alcohol abuse and general dysfunction with decent fertility levels?

    • Replies: @bomag
    , @Philip Owen
  132. dfordoom says: • Website
    @Smith

    That’s real funny considering demographics is the ONLY worthwhile question.

    Demographics is certainly not the only worthwhile question. A much bigger issue is cultural disintegration. At this point in time, looking at western Europe or the US, it wouldn’t make the slightest difference if you could transform such places into white ethnostates. You’d still have corrupt, degenerate, decadent, hedonistic doomed societies. The damage that has been done to those societies has been overwhelmingly done by white people. We trashed our own societies. And then we decided to finish the job by refusing to breed.

    • Replies: @bomag
    , @Smith
    , @neutral
  133. bomag says:
    @YetAnotherAnon

    Have they [Native Americans] managed to combine drug and alcohol abuse and general dysfunction with decent fertility levels?

    From what I see: yes; reservations are a robust welfare state coupled with a culture that encourages child-bearing. Not much real economic activity around here, mainly gov’t make-work jobs and handouts, but they’re happy to be a leisure class.

    Not too encouraging, as there is the usual dysgenics going on: the most capable go off and join the childless harems in our urban centers, leaving the less thrilling prospects to propagate the next generation.

  134. Malema says:
    @Curious

    @ Colin Wright
    What a load of Islamophobic claptrap.
    American Zio-Christians are ethnofascists, so are most Europeans

  135. The opening graphic/painting is……Graphic.

    As graphic as a Citizens Comprehensive Land Use Plan substantial deviation proposal from open rural/ agriculture to residential/ retail notice posted on an idyllic US landscape.

  136. songbird says:
    @TheTotallyAnonymous

    Abolish Feminism. Abolish women’s rights. Abolish women’s education, right to work, right to vote

    Isn’t it better if the blue-haired feminists don’t reproduce?

    • Replies: @TheTotallyAnonymous
  137. @Willem

    A Marxist in this day and age. How strange.

    Counterinsurgency

    • Agree: Johnny Walker Read
    • Replies: @dfordoom
  138. AP says:
    @Mr. XYZ

    Shouldn’t you include Crimea (officially Russian) and the separatist-controlled Donbass (de facto Russian) in your calculations, though? They’d give Russia a slight boost right now–albeit one that probably isn’t that large.

    Sure. However the purpose of such comparisons is to imply that Ukraine has a much weaker position vis a vis Russia due to the change in population ratios. But whether or not Crimea is in Russia, this doesn’t change. It was not an advantage for Ukraine to have all of those Russians in its borders. It was, on the contrary, a disadvantage – a lot of those Russians were high ranking military officers or government officials, who would probably not side with Ukraine in case of conflict with Russia. So again, the fact that Ukraine had about 33% of Russia’s population in 1991, vs. ~24% in 2019 is much less meaningful than the fact that ethnic Ukrainians in the Ukrainian state were 25% of Russia’s population in 1991 vs. 22% today.

    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
    , @annamaria
  139. Mr. Hack says:
    @songbird

    I’ve always meant to (but never have) obtained a copy of a popular Ukrainian TV series about the life of Roxalana. It was quite popular about 15 years ago. I’ve read mixed reviews, but from what I’ve seen (snippets here and there) it looked kind of interesting?…

    • Replies: @songbird
  140. bomag says:
    @dfordoom

    You’d still have corrupt, degenerate, decadent, hedonistic doomed societies. The damage that has been done to those societies has been overwhelmingly done by white people.

    Okay, but even on fumes it is more attractive than quite a bit of the world.

    Modern transportation and population pressure has these societies slated for swamping by newcomers, which could well negate the possibility of a reboot after a couple of generations of stagnation.

    • Replies: @dfordoom
  141. @anonymous coward

    A profoundly stupid comment. ‘Feminism’ and “women’s rights” were invented by men, precisely to make porn (and commitment-free sex) possible.

    Feminism, women’s rights and porn were all invented by people that come from a certain tribe called J**s (more creative than doing triple brackets signalling, imo). You should take the time to research it instead of insulting me.

    You’re not really stupid enough to think that women up and ‘liberated’ themselves out of their own femininity, are you?

    No.

    So yes, men are to blame.

    Again, J***sh men …

    • Replies: @annamaria
    , @AP
  142. @songbird

    Isn’t it better if the blue-haired feminists don’t reproduce?

    Have to disagree even though I understand your attitude.

    The current state of affairs is untenable. By focusing on “blue-haired feminists”, you’ve lost sight of the most important issue of declining birthrates. Those women are only “blue-haired feminists” as a product of social conditioning, politics, government enacted laws and etc …

    Those women could easily be something else besides “blue-haired feminists” in the right circumstances.

  143. songbird says:
    @Mr. Hack

    I’ve heard there’s a Turkish soap somewhat centered around her. I’d never watch a Turkish soap, but it would be an interesting story if it were given a high-brow treatment, with a very limited episode count.

    Not to mention, some ruthless courtly intrigue between women would be a good antidote to all the Mary Sue stuff that is being pushed nowadays.

  144. @TheTotallyAnonymous

    The solution is really very simple in concept, but a bit harder to execute:

    Abolish Feminism. Abolish women’s rights. Abolish women’s education, right to work, right to vote and etc.

    OK, let’s talk about that [0]. I’ve seen a few cases where something like that was attempted, and been related to at least one woman who tried it. This didn’t work out well — result was death, sterility, insanity, from resentment on the part of the women involved. The one woman who actively pursued life outside feminism seems to be doing pretty well, but her life is in its early stages.

    We can also consider the true nature of women (not that anybody really knows what it is, even the women involved. Part of women’s nature appears to be resistance to description.).

    Source background: I’ve followed feminism since the 1960s in real time, read enough of the second wave source books to understand some of the appeal (roughly, “you’ll drive a better bargain with men if you aren’t utterly dependent, and have more social prestige also”), read some of the third wave material and have enough background to understand something of the the appeal there (“the second wave ‘better bargain’ doesn’t work, so it’s time to go full Medea [1] or to play Artemis the Huntress [2]”), also.

    So the way things work now is that men [3] (not all men, but men) call the shots for feminists, the West has seen marriage and family formation destabilized for the past, oh, 60 years or so, and the women are convinced that it is the fault of individual men and have retreated into being difficult or by outright divorcing (and siccing the cops on) the men in their lives.
    The men, bluntly, are cracking under the strain [4]. They can’t even support themselves, and it turns out that women won’t marry men who have a worse job than they do, and tend not to psychologically support the men they marry. (Rosie appears to be an exception.) Add this to women divorcing men who have a better job than they do if the man works hard enough to neglect them, and there isn’t a winning choice for the men or women, unless you count promiscuity (which is dangerous and only possible for women until age, maybe, 35).
    On top of this, women support the laws that are making life difficult for them, apparently under the impression that they are strengthening their hand inside marriage. I well remember the 1950s, back when people realized that _work was done only because it was necessary_ [5], and wasn’t a fashion accessory or a recreation. I’ve had several relatives die from their work, and they didn’t have fun doing it.

    Fact of the matter is that men can’t do all that much about the current situation. Women have had their basic natures [6] cruelly exploited, told that their problems could be solved by doing things that made the problem worse [7]. Right now, the men are following, of necessity, the HAL strategy from _2001_: “I would recommend that we put the unit back in operation, and let it fail. It should then be a simple matter to track down the cause.” This would indeed follow your suggested course of action, but is clearly a very risky strategy (you remember that the entire crew save one was killed in _2001_). The men (all of them, worldwide) are just as cracked as HAL was in _2001_ [7a]. However, it’s not only all that’s available, it seems to be unavoidable (unless, of course, Trump survives, wins, and pulls off a near miracle [8]).
    The cities are nearly at the end of their lifetime, and when they go, we are left with a distributed production economy and a whole lot of city dwellers with no place to go. They just might descend on the countryside in enough strength to make the distributed economy impossible. Just taking down the electrical grid and destroying a few generators / transformers would make a distributed national scale economy impossible. Even if this did not happen, simple failure of the US Dollar based global trading network would lead to the same result. As I’ve pointed out, the global trading network would then, most likely, fail in a cascade of regional warfare.

    Frankly, I don’t like the “let it fail” strategy, and any suggestions for avoiding the situation would be welcome. Remember, Ron Unz has made a site that has considerable readership, more than _National Review_, so ideas presented here could spread.

    Any thoughts?

    Counterinsurgency

    [MORE]

    0] Favorite theorist just now is Karen Straughan, MRA (Men’s rights advocate). She doesn’t quite agree with you, but suggests that the current situation can’t last. (see: “Fempocalypse!!” vide0). Take a look here.
    https://www.youtube.com/user/girlwriteswhat

    1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medea_(play)
    Women generally don’t do well if left alone by the husband, and seem to need constant active affection. As with most mammals (and men are mammals also) women are quite capable of abandoning their current offspring if neglected. Since women also need the man’s income, this has led to some very bad outcomes as the man is away (or overworked and uncommunicative or bad tempered) for extended intervals and the nonverbal part of the woman’s mind concludes that the woman has been abandoned.

    2] “Artemis, the Chaste Huntress: You Really Didn’t Want to Mess With This Greek Goddess”.
    https://www.ancient-origins.net/myths-legends-europe/artemis-0011002
    Take a look at the first picture, “Earlier images of Artemis from 650 BC . . .”. I’ve seen that expression on the face of a woman who almost qualified for the USAF Thunderbirds, but not quite because of some intrinsic spatial orientation problems, a contemporary Artemis who, thank goodness, did end up married and seems fairly happy but can’t quite reconcile a huntress nature with men and life.

    3] You’re right there, about a decade ago one of the NOW women defected and said flatly that the NOW leadership did nothing without directions from the Democratic Party. I’ve been amazed at the identity of organizations that have turned out to be controlled opposition, or even controlled support. Women’s organizations seem quite vulnerable — Mothers against Drunk Driving (MADD) was apparently taken over by professional managers who awarded themselves very high salaries and chased all the independent women out. I’ve seen things like that happen; it is currently going on in US school boards right now (https://pjmedia.com/news-and-politics/election-day-2019-why-your-local-vote-matters/).

    4] https://www.curbed.com/2017/10/10/16450394/millennial-living-at-home-housing-homeownership

    5] Work as a “vocation” was considered good in Protestant circles, which were large, but try to find a vocation in the modern workplace and you’ll fail every time. The person chooses a vocation, and corporations don’t like the loss of domination involved in having people who can choose what they are doing. Hence the idea that one hires an employee, who then does what he (or she) is told, as opposed to hiring a specialist and letting him (or her) work in the specialty.

    6] Woman’s basic nature which is plausibly a psychology based on extracting enough resources from whatever man is available to support themselves and their babies through the kids 15th or so birthday. Men seem to have two basic natures (or to come in two sorts). One specializes in provisioning a woman (or several in polygamous societies) and the other in letting other men provision his children (if any) while he does something else.

    7] Victorian era surgery to remove lower ribs to “enhance the figure”, or the use of arsenic to make the skin lighter
    http://www.livingly.com/The+Most+Dangerous+Beauty+Trends+Through+the+Ages/articles/mWN-yvDM2Pl/Arsenic+Wafers
    http://www.livingly.com/The+Most+Dangerous+Beauty+Trends+Through+the+Ages/articles/QwQvnR8Jpdw/Makeup+Killed+Through+History

    7a] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=boaf_U3-Q0E

    8] Not likely, unfortunately, as the Western Left political establishment appears ready and stupid enough to pull a Kamikazi / Götterdämmerung response to losing power. Still, might happen.

  145. Emslander says:

    Hitler had a very interesting observation in Mein Kampf regarding the difference in population growth between Germany and France. He said that the French had made it a national policy to reduce births, in order to prevent population growth that might overburden resources. Germans had not.

    He opined that the French had grown significantly weaker and Germany significantly stronger, because unnatural restraints on population reduce the competition for scarce resources. Natural restraints on population make a nation stronger by increasing competition for the resources that sustain life. Every person becomes stronger in the struggle to survive and prosper.

    He, therefore, was opposed to abortion and contraception as national policies. His solution to an unsupportable population, if there should ever be one, was lebensraum.

  146. Anatman says:

    So-called “empowering” women does nothing for the overall birthrate; all it does is front-load the births. I.e., the women who were going to have children anyway are having them earlier. In actuality, women’s lib has been a disaster across all measures for Western society but most especially in terms of TFR:

    https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2019-global-fertility-crash/

    • Replies: @Che Guava
  147. @AP

    In a straight up military confrontation? Sure, that’s more significant.

    In terms of economic heft? Quite the opposite. And economic heft does carry over somewhat into hard power. (However, as you probably correctly argue, a more ethnically consolidated Ukraine may be expected to be more economically successful, canceling out the absolute population loss).

  148. @RadicalCenter

    Africa’s main hazard would be a breakdown in global trade. Should that happen, the current African population would find itself standing between China and the raw materials that China’s industrial economy needs. Not a safe place to stand.

    Counterinsurgency

    • Replies: @zogborg
  149. My guesstimate is that the planet can support ~100 billion people.

    With Whites extinct who will feed them?

  150. Che Guava says:
    @Anatman

    Any fool knows that it was the intention.

    A few major second-wave feminist writers made some sense at times.

    The Jewish coterie (the happilly married Betty Friedan, of course to a fellow Jew, the grossly obese lesbian orc Bela Abzug whose real name I forget. Steinem, , 90% another + ugly jewish women, were the main claimers of bullshit, and very much dominant. In fact, it was only them and their onther conpirators. .

    • Replies: @Anatman
  151. lauris71 says:
    @Erik Sieven

    Breeder groups are inherently unstable because their behavior is culturally motivated. There is little reason to believe that most Amish, Mormon or Haredi women have genetic disposition to have more children than their peer populations on average. Change their society/environment radically and they will stop breeding – just like most of the traditional societies did with urbanization. Mormons are probably the most resilient group, but I cannot imagine how either Amish or Haredis can keep the functioning, once they become the absolute majority in their countries and have to support the (ultra-complex) modern state structures themselves.
    What ultimately changes the demographic trend upwards is natural selection among “normal” people, picking out the genotypes that increase the desire to have many children in modern urban environment.

  152. @lauris71

    The rate of retention amongst the Amish community has risen from something like 70% a century ago to almost 95% today. This suggests that what one might call the “Amish quotient” has been getting selected for, as Greg Cochran has argued. Pro-natalism genes are likely part of that.

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    , @dfordoom
  153. @Anatoly Karlin

    There may be another factor involved.

    A century ago mainstream society was much more similar to Amish society than it is today.

    Thus the shock of abandoning the Amish community is much greater now.

    • Agree: Blinky Bill
    • Replies: @Blinky Bill
  154. zogborg says:

    Cut off all aid to Africa and ban all immigration from Africa.

  155. songbird says:
    @lauris71

    The Amish will never become the majority. They are pacifistic technophobes. How much land is really open to Amish farming methods? And at a price conducive to buying? How would they do in South Africa? Or farming the abandoned lots in Detroit?

    • Replies: @dfordoom
  156. zogborg says:
    @Counterinsurgency

    I’m generally anti-China, but I would be grateful if China could solve the African problem once and for all. The entire world will be swamped with these subhuman primates if Africa is not successfully neutralized.

  157. @Anatoly Karlin

    ‘But it pretty much succeeded if one views it as a resumption of the antediluvian race war between Germandom and Slavdom.’

    ? Germans wound up eliminated from East Prussia and Silesia, and no longer present as a major group in the Baltic States, Romania, Moldova, the Western Ukraine, Poland, Hungary, and wherever the Yugoslavian Banat is now. Moreover, in at least Poland, East Prussia, Silesia, and the Banat they were replaced by Slavs.

    I’d say it rolled the Drang nach Osten back a good seven hundred years. I doubt if the German people could survive another such ‘success.’

    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
  158. Malenfant says:
    @Mr. XYZ

    India is still above replacement overall, whereas China has been below-replacement for nearly 30 years. In no time at all, India shall be the most populous country on Earth, if it isn’t already. And India is far more likely than Europe or China to have breeder populations — indeed, they already do. In some states, TFR is around or over 3.0, and many Indian Muslims, like Muslim minorities elsewhere, seem to view reproduction as a strategic tool of conquest, to the consternation of the Hindu majority. (And perhaps, in a feedback effect somewhat reminiscent of Israel, this provokes those Hindus into having more children themselves.) Thus fertility in certain Indian communities may never fall below replacement. Other Indian communities, in stark contrast, are already far below replacement — it is said that the Jains have a TFR of just 1.2.

    That the future will have a higher relative proportion of Indians is all but certain.

    • Replies: @Really No Shit
  159. dfordoom says: • Website
    @bomag

    You’d still have corrupt, degenerate, decadent, hedonistic doomed societies. The damage that has been done to those societies has been overwhelmingly done by white people.

    Okay, but even on fumes it is more attractive than quite a bit of the world.

    Not for much longer. The decadence seems to have built an unstoppable momentum. Not to mention the momentum towards soft totalitarianism. Both of which are entirely unconnected with demographics.

    And it’s increasingly less attractive than quite a bit of the world.

  160. dfordoom says: • Website
    @Anatoly Karlin

    The rate of retention amongst the Amish community has risen from something like 70% a century ago to almost 95% today. This suggests that what one might call the “Amish quotient” has been getting selected for, as Greg Cochran has argued. Pro-natalism genes are likely part of that.

    It’s also possible that life outside the Amish community has become a lot less attractive to kids brought up with a strong religious faith.

    A century ago, or even say 60 years ago, the outside world was less hostile to people with a religious worldview. And there was a lot less degeneracy in the outside world. The outside world could be seen as offering more freedom without the necessity of hiding one’s religious beliefs or wallowing in the gutter. And the outside world would have seemed less culturally alien to someone raised as an Amish. OK, there were cars and radios and gramophones but the outside world didn’t offer unlimited porn, child drag queens, gay bathhouses, the celebration of slut culture and angry blue-haired lesbians.

    For every genetic explanation there’s an equally convincing cultural explanation.

  161. @Thorfinnsson

    Rumspringa ain’t what it use to be.

  162. @songbird

    Belize has about 12,000 Old Order Mennonites. I believe they came in the mid 20th century, after cheap arable land. They do quite well down there, by my brother’s account (he lived there for a couple years). They account for much of Belize’s industrial food system. Seems like they do quite well and get along just fine with the native Maya, etc.

  163. dfordoom says: • Website
    @Counterinsurgency

    A Marxist in this day and age. How strange.

    You can accept some elements of Marxist analysis as useful and valuable without having to accept the Marxist solutions. You don’t have to be a Marxist to realise that class is crucial and that we’re in the middle of a class war.

    • Replies: @Counterinsurgency
  164. @Willem

    since humans are the same everywhere, it does not really matter which population of a certain country grows faster than another

    Surely You’re Joking, Mr. Willem!

    • Agree: Bardon Kaldian
    • Replies: @Willem
  165. dfordoom says: • Website
    @songbird

    The Amish will never become the majority. They are pacifistic technophobes. How much land is really open to Amish farming methods? And at a price conducive to buying? How would they do in South Africa? Or farming the abandoned lots in Detroit?

    Another point to consider is that the Amish population is still small enough to be disregarded as a threat by mainstream society, by the government and by the media. What are they, 0.1% of the US population? They’re still so few that they arouse little hostility.

    What happens when they reach 1% of the population? Or 2%? Or 5%? Will we start hearing about the existential threat posed by the Amish? Will we be told that the Amish are about to go all Handmaid’s Tale on the rest of the population? At the very least they’re likely to attract a lot more hostility from SJWs.

    What will happen when they make up a significant share of the population in states like Pennsylvania? Will there be demands that sanctions be imposed on Pennsylvania?

    The Amish are going to run into really major problems long long before they’re anywhere near to being a majority.

    • Replies: @songbird
  166. Skeptikal says:

    David Fischer Hackett.

    It’s David Hackett Fischer.

  167. @Charon

    >Pretty much anywhere I go in this land of ours, I can count on white people being friendly, or at the very least civil. Unfortunately I’m unable to maintain a similar expectation with any other ‘ethnicity’. I’d say that’s meaningful.

    It used to be accepted as a truism and self-evident that America was a melting pot that homogenized the many strands of white immigrant ethnicities and came up with a new culture which is immediately recognizable. Check out a bunch of American girl tourists abroad; their speech and gait is unmistakable: charming, naive and VERY LOUD compared to say the French that quiet repressed people.

    I suspect that the American melting pot is still operative and now includes Asians like Koreans and Chinese and many Hispanics. I get that impression partly by real world experience and partly by Asians and Hispanics on the TV speaking acentless American English which is the acid test of nationality.

  168. Kurt_5 says:

    According to the 1900 population chart, South Africa only had a population of 1.4 million in 1900, but the population today is somewhere around 55 million. I wonder what the white % of the population was in 1900? The black population exploded as a result of the improved medical care that the whites brought, yet they were rewarded with a massive explosion in black crime and have had the country stolen from them…

    • Replies: @neutral
  169. songbird says:
    @dfordoom

    If the Amish were a large enough group, they would probably be called Nazis.

  170. Dmitry says:
    @songbird

    Overstay a visa, or try to enter Europe illegally and spend a winter in Vorkuta

    It’s a very sensible plan.

    Vorkuta is probably one of the only places in Europe (technically is just inside Europe!) which they will not welcome going, while they would be welcomed by the local population.

    In Soviet times, Vorkuta was a city of 115,000 people. While today, there are only around 70,000 inhabitants in the city.

    These cities whose “golden age” was in the Soviet Union, and today they are heavily declining.
    Young people are leaving these cities, and the old people are dying and not being replaced.

    As a result of the falling population of the city, there is now quite a high proportion of empty buildings there, where the immigrants can live (they just need to fix the roof – and welcome to paradise!).

    Maybe also an advertising campaign in Africa of “Welcome to Europe” – with videos of Vorkuta, to “attract” them.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTRzurfU8Fs

    • Agree: songbird
    • Replies: @Dmitry
  171. Willem says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    People are happy when kids are born in the family, feel sorrow when a loved-one dies, are troubled by all sorts of diseases, are able to feel pleasure and pain, are more likely to cope when not under stress, are terribly naive (but that is not their fault), and always talk about the same thing when the ice needs to be broken: their kids and football.

    People are also able to feel empathy towards one another, like to work together, can think through genius ideas, and they are also able to make mistakes. A mistake people can make is to think in their own interest. Not that there is much wrong with thinking about your own interest (as ethical egoists can tell you), but what’s wrong is that people often think that they serve their own interest by being smart or opportunistic, while in reality they serve someone else his interest or they serve no interest at all. Admitting mistakes is also something that people find difficult, there is always an issue of pride, and our society seems more willing to punish mistakes, instead of rewarding someone who admitted that he made a mistake. But most of that is just predjudice: people are in general kind and forgiving. It’s only in places like politics and journalism that mistakes are equal to sin. But journalists and politicians only count for 0.1% for the total population, and are to be pitied for the situation they are in. E.g., never to be able to apologize for having created destruction by being part (or having created) terrible lies.

    If you go 1mm under the skin (as an anatomist) you will not see a difference between men or women. And as said, and eloborated in this comment, I don’t even see a difference when I just look at people.

  172. Dmitry says:
    @Dmitry

    around 70,000 inhabitants in the city

    Actually, the later figures are only 58,000 people now (although that does not include neighbouring towns like Vorgashor which has soldiers there on a military base – the whole metropolis now has only 80,000). There is such a decline of population since 2010 (when Vorkuta had 70,000).

  173. Dmitry says:
    @Finnishdude

    The highest fertility population in both Israel and the world, are the Israeli Bedouin Arabs. There fertility rate is reported as above 8.

    Their population was only 11,000 in the 1950s, and now they have a population of hundreds of thousands.

  174. JMcG says:
    @songbird

    They’re not pacifists when deer season comes around. I don’t think I’ve ever failed to see an Amish guy fail to empty his magazine when shooting at a deer.

    • Replies: @songbird
  175. Gary5775 says:
    @Willem

    @Willem

    Are you serious? As a white man, I certainly do see the difference between other races and myself. Blacks certainly look at whites, Asians, and other and see differences as well . Anyone who denies this is lying to themselves…

  176. @Willem

    And as said, and eloborated in this comment, I don’t even see a difference when I just look at people.

    So when you need to pay your bill at a restaurant, you just randomly hand cash to the nearest available homo sapien blob. Good to know – and as it is all the same, can you please provide your name and credit card so that I, as another undifferentiated homo sapien blob, can get access to your financial resources?

    Thanks.

  177. HEREDOT says:
    @Curious

    I agree, a country whose demography is ruined. ominous days await them

  178. Jake says:

    “9) So far as I can tell, the Latvians, Estonians, and Ashkenazi Jews are the only peoples with fewer people today than in 1914. It is ironic that they played the most disproportionate roles (per capita) in cementing Bolshevism in Russia. God must really hate commies.”

    The international language of Ashkenazi Jews was Yiddish: German for Jews, or if you prefer, slightly Judaized German. Culturally, Ashkenazi Jews were preponderantly Germanic.

    Today, the international language of Ashkenazi Jews is English and culturally they are preponderantly Anglo-Saxon. Of course, Anglo-Saxon is Germanic linguistically and culturally. So Jews still choose to be linguistically and culturally Germanic.

    Both Estonia and Latvia were strongly influenced by German language and, especially, culture, including Lutheranism and the forms of Masonry favored by German speakers.

    If we line up all the above, what meanings should shout out to us?

    • Replies: @Skeptikal
  179. Dmitry says:
    @The Scalpel

    Even in the 1980s, however, it would not be so bad. Imagine all these apartments when they are new and shiny in the 1960-70s (not decaying like now), and full of young families, with everyone working in local industry. It would have been “cozy”.

    Here is a drone over some nearby villages – these places are totally abandoned (the final result of depopulation before nature starts climbing over).

  180. @Colin Wright

    (1) Territory has ceased to play the defining role it played in earlier centuries.

    (2) What matters is the gap between potential c.1914 and present reality. “Normal” Russia would have had twice as many people in its core territories, and 3x with a largely Russified Ukraine and Belarus (not even counting Balts, Caucasus, C. Asia). Its GDP will have been many times higher – at least as high as that of the US (assuming convergence to, say, France’s per capita level). Sure, the Germans have been definitively driven out of Eastern Europe, but their population and GDP is only perhaps 20% lower than it would have otherwise been.

  181. Skeptikal says:
    @prime noticer

    Are there any data on where these people are going?

    • Replies: @Jimi
  182. Skeptikal says:
    @Mr. XYZ

    19.8 million people in NYC metropolitan area. Give or take. New York remains the largest metropolitan area in the country — by far — according to the latest Census Bureau population estimates released Thursday

    The Northeast megalopolis (also Boston–Washington corridor or Bos-Wash corridor) is the most populous megalopolis in the United States with over 50 million residents and the most heavily urbanized agglomeration of the United States.

    Based on estimates taken in 2017, the states along the East Coast have a total population of over 118 million inhabitants. This region is home to more than one-third of the nation’s total population. It is also the most populated coastal region in the country.

    by contrast,
    Los Angeles/Metro population
    13,131,431

    Southern California/Population
    24.12 million

  183. Emslander says:
    @lauris71

    The Amish way of life appears more and more appealing to young people in this wasteland. The American agricultural system is dependent upon governments. The Amish system of farming supports its participants in addition to multiples of consumers who are not participants.

    It seemed to me for a while that the Unz commenters were thinking beyond the failed modernism. It’s becoming clear that commenters here aren’t quite as aware as they pretend to be. Modern urbanism is bankrupt. Most cities will be deserted within the lifetime of the next generation. The Amish know how to live in the dystopian future. For them there will be nothing dystopian about it.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    , @Jake
  184. Skeptikal says:
    @Jake

    “Culturally, Ashkenazi Jews were preponderantly Germanic.”

    Really?
    I thought Ashkenazim included Polish, Russian, another Eastern European Jews.
    Can this be called “Germanic”?

    • Replies: @Jake
  185. songbird says:
    @JMcG

    I don’t think I’ve ever failed to see an Amish guy fail to empty his magazine

    I’m amazed that they don’t use musket balls.

  186. @Emslander

    The Amish know how to live in the dystopian future. For them there will be nothing dystopian about it.

    Its not that realistic to be hardcore pacifists in a dystopian future. For better or worse, I think there’s a strong argument that the Amish can only exist due to modern society – although their agricultural skills are doubtlessly more valuable in a non-industrial society.

    I think this analysis holds even if, say, the laws of physics change and all manmade electrical devices cease to function. The balance of equilibrium would still quite favor warlordism, etc.

    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
    , @dfordoom
    , @AP
  187. Jake says:
    @Skeptikal

    So you think all those Jews in Poland, for example, spoke Polish rather than Yiddish? If so, you are wrong.

    • Replies: @Skeptikal
  188. Anatman says:
    @Che Guava

    Um, no.

    It’s quite simply really. Do you believe women should have the right to vote, yes or no? If yes, you are a feminist. If no, congratulations, you have an IQ above 80 or at least are substantially resistant to idealistic egalitarian humanistic claptrap.

    No one group who aren’t net taxpayers should have the right to vote. Otherwise you get mob rule, begets parasitism, and parasitism is unsustainable. Take your solipsistic Boomer logic elsewhere.

    • Replies: @Che Guava
  189. SafeNow says:

    That is a fascinating demographic statistic that Bangladesh has more people than Russia. I had no idea. But here is a follow-up statistic:

    Number of titled chess players:

    Bangladesh 47
    Russia 2632

  190. Mr. XYZ says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    (1) Territory has ceased to play the defining role it played in earlier centuries.

    The amount of territory that one has actually does have value in regards to things such as carrying capacity. More territory would presumably mean a larger carrying capacity and thus an ability to sustain a much larger population. This is why the US’s historical territorial expansion has been so beneficial to it. Theoretically speaking, as many as 100 million people could fit into the Southwestern US (including Texas, of course).

    (2) What matters is the gap between potential c.1914 and present reality. “Normal” Russia would have had twice as many people in its core territories, and 3x with a largely Russified Ukraine and Belarus (not even counting Balts, Caucasus, C. Asia). Its GDP will have been many times higher – at least as high as that of the US (assuming convergence to, say, France’s per capita level). Sure, the Germans have been definitively driven out of Eastern Europe, but their population and GDP is only perhaps 20% lower than it would have otherwise been.

    At least Russia kept most of its 1914 territory up to the present-day, though. This should eventually allow Russia to achieve a very high population once its “breeders” will become a sufficiently large part of its population. Compare that with Germany where their “breeders” don’t have anywhere near as much room/space for massive population growth.

    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
  191. I’m not convinced the world has a population of 7 billion, or China 1.3 billion, or India’s 1.7 billions, or Africa’s billions. It’s all suspect to me. Maybe someone with a more fertile mind than I can cite what the motive(s) can be, for those in position to say, declare such numbers as facts.
    My instinct tells me to look at the UN, and their agenda 21, and subsequent agendas. To scare everyone with: the world is over populated , serves the globalists. Does it not?
    Yet, we can fly over every continent, and for hours and see nothing but square miles of beautiful unpopulated areas. It just doesn’t add up.

    • LOL: Anatoly Karlin
  192. Mr. XYZ says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    Yes, one can certainly say that the current situation in Europe is rather favorable for Germany–with the collapse of the Soviet Union essentially restoring Germany’s Brest-Litovsk sphere of influence (albeit in a much milder form) in Eastern Europe. Germany was able to inflict severe demographic devastation to Russia, but also suffered a relatively heavy cost for this itself (in 1950, there were only 77 German men for every 100 German women aged 25-49; the comparable figure for the Russian SFSR was 62 men for every 100 women aged 25-49–with Ukraine being at 65 men and Belarus being at 69 men for every 100 women in this age range in 1950).

    Ultimately, though, I’m not sure that things are going to be too favorable for Germany. After all, it seems eager to import a lot of Third Worlders while having low native birth rates and very possibly dysgenic fertility as well. Plus, its population has much less room to expand than, say, Russia’s or even France’s population. Theoretically high-fertility Germans could eventually move to greener pastures, but then Germany is going to end up losing them.

    • Replies: @Daniel.I
  193. Mr. XYZ says:
    @Colin Wright

    This helps to explain the calculation of the Wilhelmine German General Staff that if war with Russia was delayed past 1916, it would be unwinnable.

    Technically speaking, were Germany to acquire Britain as an ally after 1916, the calculations in regards to this could have somewhat been changed. Were Germany to also acquire the US as an ally after 1916, the calculations in regards to this would have definitely been changed–assuming that Germany would have been able to avoid total collapse before massive numbers of British and American troops could actually get there, of course.

    Given the German role in reintroducing Bolshevism into Russia, and of course their invasion of 1941-43, you could even say that the Germans did manage to defeat the Russian menace.

    Yep, certainly.

    The difficulty was of course that they lost the wars themselves as well.

    Yeah, the Germans themselves certainly paid a very heavy price for crippling Russia in terms of their own lives and territory. Sure, they hurt Russia much more than they hurt themselves, but at least Russia still has a lot of territory for their population to expand into once its “breeders” will become a sufficiently large part of its population. Germany, on the other hand, doesn’t. This is actually a problem that Germany experienced in the 19th and 20th centuries–as in, the amount of space that it had wasn’t that large even in 1914 and short of massive ethnic cleansing, there simply wasn’t a lot of available empty space for Germany to expand into like there was for the 19th century United States of America. Germany’s best bet had it won World War I would have been to try creating a Mitteleuropa-style union with its newly independent Eastern European satellite states. That way Germans could have had a lot of additional space to settle without Germany losing these Germans. Of course, such a Mitteleuropa-style union would have probably only worked in the long(er)-run had the Slavs living there had an equal say in running this union–something that might have been anathema to Slavophobic German nationalists!

  194. Jake says:
    @Emslander

    A number of commenters here, like elsewhere, are paid by the likes of the SPLC or ADL, etc.

    The Amish are no threat to the freaks and monsters in charge of Globalism and so are safely ignored.

    • Replies: @Emslander
  195. @dfordoom

    You can accept some elements of Marxist analysis as useful and valuable without having to accept the Marxist solutions. You don’t have to be a Marxist to realize that class is crucial and that we’re in the middle of a class war.

    Well, as you can see by looking at what I’ve written, I tend to think in terms of sociological regions and intrusive groups, but more region than groups. To me, the classes are functional parts of groups. It’s certainly true that the rich are not functional in the contemporary West, and also that they are one of the groups responsible for the impoverishment of the Western non-rich, but it is also true that the same things could be said about quite a few groups. For a very large example, the educational / intellectual scene is not run by the rich –I tend to believe that the largest influence is from the US region settled from New Englander during the 1800s. New England always did fund higher education and take it more seriously than the rest of the US.
    One of my themes is that a coalition between the New England area and the New York City area (descendant of a Dutch trading post and still interested mostly in profitable trade) has been responsible for immigration since the AD 1840s, and for the Civil War, and that what is happening now is very similar to what happened then. Class is important, and business people / religious fanatics clearly direct much of what is happening, but both are acting in accordance with what their regions have done in the past. The Deep South, which also has religious people and business people, does not favor de-industrialization and high immigration. Niether does Texas.

    For a popularization of the region hypothesis, you might look at Woodward, _American Nations_, http://www.colinwoodard.com/americannations.html

    Counterinsurgency

  196. @Willem

    Move to any ethnic urban area, live there for a year, then re-post. There is more to being identical than breathing oxygen and having a carbon based metabolism.

    Counterinsurgency

  197. Dmitry says:

    Offtopic again, but I find it curious just a few minutes ago, to look at the demographic data for America.

    For example.

    1. In New York, blacks have the lowest fertility rate of all races (although all races are below replacement rate in New York).

    2. In California, blacks have the lowest fertility rate of all races (all races of California are below replacement rate, even hispanics – although hispanics have the highest fertility there).

    3. In Utah, whites have the demographers’ “ideal replacement level of fertility of 2,1” (blacks and hispanic are above replacement in Utah, so I assume they are just a minority of black/hispanic Mormons there?).

    4. In Wyoming, blacks have fertility rate of 1,146, as low as Leningrad region. Blacks in Wyoming have the second lowest fertility rate of any people in America (only behind to whites of DC). I wonder if this is because of a limited number of marriage partners, due to their small numbers of blacks there, as the other races have fertility rates of 1,8 there? (In America generally, there is a very low intermarriage rate for blacks to other races).

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    , @Mr. XYZ
    , @Colin Wright
  198. Dmitry says:
    @Dmitry

    Also is there some group of black Amish/Haredi people living in Maine (how is their fertility rate 4, when the hispanics are 1,28 in the same state)?

    • Replies: @songbird
    , @Mr. XYZ
  199. AndrewR says:

    My only response is to your last sentence.

    That’s disgustingly, appallingly irresponsible of you to write.

    That’s the nicest way I can put it.

  200. @Daniel Chieh

    I think this analysis holds even if, say, the laws of physics change and all manmade electrical devices cease to function. The balance of equilibrium would still quite favor warlordism, etc.

    But I agree. The Amish will be enslaved by historical recreation nerds with evil overlord pretensions who will get the military and gangsters on their side.

  201. @Mr. XYZ

    The amount of territory that one has actually does have value in regards to things such as carrying capacity.

    Hypothetically, in an AoMI scenario.

    • Replies: @Mr. XYZ
    , @Skeptikal
  202. Optimism that the world can “ Support” 100 billion?
    Not a world worth living in.

    I imagine the author has little grasp of USA public lands, “ European Conservation Model”. For starters.

    The entire world economy is a race for what’s left.

  203. songbird says:
    @Dmitry

    Very interesting chart.

    Also is there some group of black Amish/Haredi people living in Maine (how is their fertility rate 4, when the hispanics are 1,28 in the same state)

    Somalis settled there by the Feds because Maine was considered too white. Same thing is happening in other parts of rural New England and America, but Maine, I think has one of the larger Somali communities. It is kind of disturbing to see diversity come to Maine’s beautiful, old, coastal towns.

    • Agree: Bardon Kaldian
    • Replies: @Dmitry
  204. iffen says:
    @Smith

    Without genetics, no culture.

    You can teach a dog to run, it will never run as fast as a horse.

    I guess this explains why canids have never brought down an ungulate.

  205. iffen says:
    @Willem

    I don’t even see a difference when I just look at people.

    You need glasses. Any pair will do, even the cheap ones off the rack at Dollar General.

    • Agree: Daniel Chieh
  206. Mr. XYZ says:
    @Dmitry

    1. In New York, blacks have the lowest fertility rate of all races (although all races are below replacement rate in New York).

    2. In California, blacks have the lowest fertility rate of all races (all races of California are below replacement rate, even hispanics – although hispanics have the highest fertility there).

    I wonder if this has anything to do with high housing prices there.

    4. In Wyoming, blacks have fertility rate of 1,146, as low as Leningrad region. Blacks in Wyoming have the second lowest fertility rate of any people in America (only behind to whites of DC). I wonder if this is because of a limited number of marriage partners, due to their small numbers of blacks there, as the other races have fertility rates of 1,8 there? (In America generally, there is a very low intermarriage rate for blacks to other races).

    TBH, my guess is that blacks in Wyoming would prefer to marry a person of another race rather than to remain single their entire lives.

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
  207. Skeptikal says:
    @Jake

    I don’t know.

    That was my question.
    Wiki:
    “Most Warsaw Jews spoke Yiddish, but Polish was increasingly used by the young who have not had a problem in identifying themselves fully as Jews, Varsovians and Poles. Polish Jews were entering the mainstream of Polish society, though many thought of themselves as a separate nationality within Poland. ”

    “An ever-increasing proportion of Jews in interwar Poland lived separate lives from the Polish majority. In 1921, 74.2 percent of Polish Jews listed Yiddish or Hebrew as their native language, but the number has risen to 87 percent by 1931 already, resulting in growing tensions between Jews and Poles.[21] Jews were often not identified as Polish nationals; a problem caused not only by the reversal of assimilation shown in national censuses between 1921 and 1931, but also, by the influx of Russian Jews escaping persecution especially in Ukraine where up to 2,000 pogroms took place during the Civil War, in which an estimated 30,000 Jews were massacred directly and a total of 150,000 died”

    The comments about Jewish national identification are interesting.

    Still I wonder whether speaking Yiddish makes a Polish or Russian or Ukainian Jew “Germanic.”

  208. @Dmitry

    ‘…black/hispanic Mormons there…’

    To make a really bad pun, ‘black/hispanic Mormons’ is an oxymoron.

    However, and in any case, Utah is by no means entirely Mormon. Half, or thereabouts, is my impression.

  209. Mr. XYZ says:
    @Dmitry

    This might be due to African immigrants and their descendants settling and living in Maine. I seem to recall an effort to resettle Somali Bantu in Maine in large numbers a decade or so ago.

    • Replies: @Skeptikal
  210. @Mr. XYZ

    ‘TBH, my guess is that blacks in Wyoming would prefer to marry a person of another race rather than to remain single their entire lives.’

    Actually, I think the two blacks are married to each other.

    More seriously, I would guess a disproportionate percentage of the blacks in the state are there on some form of government posting, and have no intention of settling down and having children until they’ve left.

  211. Mr. XYZ says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    I don’t think that this is only hypothetical. After all, even if we’ll be able to engage in things such as embryo selection and gene editing on a mass scale and literally make everyone in the entire world smarter than John von Neumann or Albert Einstein was, there would still be a limit as to just how many people various territories and countries could support. Of course, if everyone was actually this smart, then the carrying capacity for various territories and countries might very well be higher than it is right now due to various technological advances that will occur as a result of the extremely massive ultra-smart fraction that the world will have in this scenario, but there is still going to be a carrying capacity that we will eventually reach if fertility is eventually going to rebound. With or without massive IQ enhancement, I expect fertility to eventually significantly increase since even among extremely smart people, “breeder” genes should eventually predominate. That, and the fact that it is easier to sustain a large family if one is smart and wealthy (and if one is smart, one has more talents and thus more opportunities to become wealthy) as opposed to dull and poor. So, yeah, I expect Russia to eventually see its total population surge and skyrocket. Germany, nowhere near as much as Russia.

    • Replies: @Skeptikal
    , @Malenfant
  212. @Willem

    ‘… And as said, and eloborated in this comment, I don’t even see a difference when I just look at people.’

    You can ignore anything if you just try hard enough.

    Stay away from blacks, though. Your enlightenment is likely to prove traumatic.

  213. dfordoom says: • Website
    @Daniel Chieh

    For better or worse, I think there’s a strong argument that the Amish can only exist due to modern society

    The Amish can only exist as long as others are prepared to allow them to do so.

    The balance of equilibrium would still quite favor warlordism, etc.

    Yes.

  214. Skeptikal says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    What is AoMI?
    If the survivable future = not urban living, then I think amount of territory, and its quality, cannot help but be relevant.
    Most important perhaps supply of water.
    Plus, also urbanites need to be fed, obviously.
    Not good planning to rely on imported foods, esp. fresh foods.
    Yes, there are greenhouses, etc. and the Netherlands exports the most fresh produce in Europe, but still I think expansive territory will contribute to survival in a number of ways. Of course, the larger the territory the harder to defend. So, what ends up being a prerequisite for survival of a nation or other group will depend on the scenario.

    AK: “What is AoMI?” Read/skim through “A Short History of the Third Millennium” and the AOMI I-IV series.

    https://www.unz.com/akarlin/topic/age-of-malthusian-industrialism/

  215. Johan says:

    The more primitive the people, the more they flock together, if necessary, body to body. You can see that in popular mass festivities, pop music festivities, dance halls , etc., you can see that among primitive peoples, always flocking together in groups, outside, or in houses, cafes etc. They have little individuality, hardly any thoughts of themselves. They represent the non individualized mass man.

    As such, those people who in relation to the issue of overpopulation merely count and calculate in terms of resources as defined by modern ideology are mere semi-barbarian ideologically blinded number crunchers. Blind as they are, if not themselves representatives of mass man, they are overlooking other quantitative and qualitative issues which go along with environments where a great amount of people are stuffed together, issues like noise, the lack of free space, the obsessive industriousness of modern life, altogether the lack of physical, mental and emotional privacy due to the ubiquitous presence of average mass man, issues which are all a heavy drain on the minor part of sensible, cultured and individualized people, people who need privacy, solitude space and quietness for their development.
    In short, they are not taking into account the qualitative criteria which are of great importance for the minor part of individualized people. They are mere self styled ‘flock shepherds’ and ‘resource’ allocators of mass man.

    Since mass man has the habit to always flock together, to make lots of noise, and to be industrious like an ant, and in a democracy, to be very brutal and assertive, too many of them will always make the cities unsuitable for the more intelligent individualized man, as mass man cannot be prevented to not flock together. And as such the decline of society, due to an over-presence of mass man pushing away the intelligentsia, and as such the vast decline of cultural and intellectual development will continue.

    So I would introduce additional criteria on top of the resource criteria used by self-styled modern flock shepherds:

    One mass man makes the mental and mechanical noise of ten sensible men.
    One mass man in a democracy makes the noise of twenty sensible men.
    One mass man in a democratic consumerist work slave society takes the material resources, space and matter, and make the noise of thirty sensible man, or one historical king.

    • Replies: @Skeptikal
  216. Skeptikal says:
    @Mr. XYZ

    “So, yeah, I expect Russia to eventually see its total population surge and skyrocket. Germany, nowhere near as much as Russia.”

    I should think that Russia will also see increased interest in immigration.
    This subject has come up before, and the response was: No no no!!
    Don’t let them in!

    I kind of agree! But a few expats should be manageable . . .
    My worry would be unregulated or even regulated but undesired migrant waves from China.

    • Replies: @Mr. XYZ
  217. @EldnahYm

    The English landlords were dicks during the Irish famine sure, but they can hardly be blamed for an oomycete ruining crops, or for that matter the Irish decision to become single crop dependent.

    You utter the words of an utter pillock who knows absolutely nothing about what forces drove the Irish Catholic peasantry to rely so much on the potato.

    “They can hardly be blamed….” Good grief what an idiotic statement!

  218. Skeptikal says:
    @Johan

    I am more and more convinced that city life is simply barbaric and too stressful for an intelligent individual, unless that person is *rich.*

    See James Howard Kunstler on this. He pushed this line of thinking decades ago, and I think he is right. So in the dystopian future I foresee an urban jungle and various “intelligent” outposts far away from the madding crowds—also to escape from the immigrant experience and avoid the inevitable cultural conflict and annoyance.

  219. nsa says:

    “My guesstimate is the earth can support around 100 billion people”
    The author is seriously mentally ill. Imagine yourself on any clogged urban freeway and then multiply the number of cars by twelve……….

  220. AP says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    This assumes that under warlord conditions the Amish would just sit back and allows themselves all to get martyred and/or enslaved like the Moriori. It’s possible, but not 100%.

    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
  221. Malenfant says:
    @Mr. XYZ

    > “Even if we’ll be able to engage in things such as embryo selection and gene editing on a mass scale and literally make everyone in the entire world smarter than John von Neumann or Albert Einstein was, there would still be a limit as to just how many people various territories and countries could support.”

    Embryo selection and genetic modification for intelligence face major, if not insurmountable, implementation problems. But a society where the average IQ is just 130, to say nothing of a society where everybody is a stable and productive super-genius, faces no carrying capacity problem. There is a lot of room off-world and in ocean habitats. There are far horizons and infinite frontiers for us to measure ourselves up against. These notions today seem like little more than dreams, but they were dreamed by competent engineers and futurists many decades ago, and they are in principle perfectly feasible.

    Our tragedy is that these big dreams may never be realized. AoMI is far worse than you think it is.

    Fortunately, AoMI is also far less likely than you think it is. All indications are that the heritability of fertility is somewhere between 0.0 and 0.1. (Estimates of >0.1 — and AoMI seems to rely upon an estimate of 0.3 — are highly dubious if not simply spurious. They are an artefact of obviously shoddy methodology. Read the papers, compare them to papers examining the heritability of fertility in wild and farmlot animals, and give the matter some thought.)

    In other words, fertility in itself is very weakly heritable to nonheritable. Breeder genes are not going to come to the fore; in this particular case, it seems nurture is stronger than nature. (Can you identify those genes, if you’re so sure they exist?)

    …And this is why the so-called “breeders” in the West are drawn from religious sects where high fertility is high status. The Quiverfull are a new group — they have no ties of shared origin or kinship — but their TFR is through the roof. The Mormons and Hutterites, now in decline, started in much the same way.

    Mormon TFR has been sky-high since the mid 19th century. Far higher than average. But they peaked in the 1860s, they have been in decline for many decades, and this decline has been very steep over the past ten years. If fertility is heritable to 0.3, this decline can hardly be explained. Fortunately, there are more parsimonious explanations, so it’s not a paradox: Social status no longer increases with children, children have become a burden rather than an asset, religiosity has declined and many Mormons no longer take their religion totally seriously, and so forth. No such explanation is complete, and none of them are totally satisfactory, but they’re a start.

    • Replies: @dfordoom
  222. @John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan

    Are you being serious or sarcastic?

    I thought you were being sarcastic at first which is why I put a lol, but I’m not so sure when I read it again.

  223. annamaria says:
    @AP

    “It was not an advantage for Ukraine to have all of those Russians in its borders.”

    — What would be your opinion of the advantage of having Mr. Groysman, Mr. Zelensky, Mr. Kolomojsky, Mr. Pinchuk, Mr. Zlochevsky and similar eminent Jewish pipers calling the tune in Ukraine?
    https://www.moonofalabama.org/2019/10/biden-timeline.html
    https://www.tabletmag.com/jewish-news-and-politics/282575/jews-center-stage-in-ukraine-elections

    The transformation wrought in Ukraine by the Maidan revolution has been an exhilarating roller coaster that has not bypassed Ukrainian Jewry, which is now in the midst of an exciting period of cultural revival paralleling that of the wider Ukrainian society, which is still just beginning to rediscover its own past and imagine an independent future. Whether this post-Soviet country will choose to elect an openly Jewish president, or a part-Jewish president, or continue with its current philo-Semitic president, the future of Ukraine’s Jews would appear to be brighter than anyone might reasonably have imagined.

    Mazel Tov!

    • Replies: @AP
  224. Dmitry says:
    @songbird

    This is from an official American government publication.

    They compress together historic American blacks, with recent African immigrants, into the same category. It would be better if they separated these groups, as they almost don’t have any cultural connection.

    It means historic American blacks must have a lower fertility rate than reported the overall “black rate” – as recent African immigrants are coming from the most high fertility countries in the world, and must raise the reported “black” fertility rates a lot.

    Somalis settled there by the Feds because Maine was considered too white. Same thing is happening in other parts of rural New England and America, but Maine, I think has one of the larger Somali communities.

    Somalia has the second highest fertility rate in the world in the World Bank reporting.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_and_dependencies_by_total_fertility_rate

    When Somalians immigrate to America, they will probably continue with this high fertility rate for at least 2 generations until their fertility rate will converge with the normal American level.

    • Replies: @songbird
  225. AP says:
    @annamaria

    I thought Biden was? Or was it Trump? Freemasons? Illuminati? Poles? Germans? You guys can’t make up your mind, can you?

    • Replies: @annamaria
  226. AP says:
    @TheTotallyAnonymous

    Feminism, women’s rights and porn were all invented by people that come from a certain tribe called J**s

    Feminism came from Sartre (a man lol). He was not a Jew but half French and half Alsatian (Lutheran). Sartre’s debased sex-slave Simone de Beauvoir was a Frenchwoman.

    Women’s rights – according to wiki in the modern world was first proposed by the Englishman of radical Protestant descent John Locke.

    Pornography – brought into the mainstream by Hugh Hefner, of Swedish, German and English descent, presumably a Lutheran background. The other famous pornographer Larry Flynt is an American Southern evangelical Christian.

    These things seem to be a Protestant legacy.

    • Disagree: TheTotallyAnonymous
  227. @Anatoly Karlin

    ‘… . Sure, the Germans have been definitively driven out of Eastern Europe, but their population and GDP is only perhaps 20% lower than it would have otherwise been.’

    Well, that becomes very, very speculative. The Nazis managed to significantly increase the German birthrate. You’ve got to decide to what extent they can maintain or further increase that, and to what extent they can foster German colonization in the East.

    By now, nearly eighty years later, almost any outcome seems defensible. Eighty million Germans, two hundred million? Who knows?

    Maybe thirty million. America, developing the hydrogen bomb in 1949, definitively wins the nuclear phase of World War Two.

    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
  228. S says:

    That said, the Irish have an even more extreme and unique anti-record: There are fewer of them today (~6.6M in all Ireland) than in 1840 (8.5M)!

    It’s thought the Irish during the Famine years 1845 – 1850 lost about a million people due to starvation and disease. During those same years they lost another million of their population due to their enmasse predation as wage slaves (ie so called ‘cheap labor’/’immigrants’) in various far flung places of the British Empire, but in particular in the United States, most of these never to see Ireland again.

    Even after the Famine subsided Ireland continued to hemorrhage large numbers of their people for many decades after.

    Other people’s have experienced their predation as so called ‘cheap labor’ on a large scale, ie South and Central Americans, Baltics, East Europeans, etc, but the Irish are the only people I know of that engaged in armed resistance specifically against this phenomena to try and stop it, something one is not likely to have heard about as it decidedly does not fit the multi-cult ‘narrative’.

    Per the 1847 Famine era Spectator of London article linked below entitled ‘Extermination and Vengeance’; ‘extermination’ references the quarter million people Ireland was losing yearly due to British landlords evicting Irish farmers off their own land and exporting them to the U.S. via their (landlords) paying their (the Irish) ship fare to the United States.

    [Ostensibly one could say ‘no’ to this and either be arrested and be sent to prison and or very possibly starve, or say ‘yes’ and probably never see Ireland again. The Irish apparently didn’t think much of this ‘choice’ that was being offered them.]

    ‘Vengeance’ in the title references the shooting of members of the British aristocracy in Ireland who were promoting or sponsoring this scheme of the mass exodus of the Irish from Ireland as so called ‘cheap labor’.

    http://archive.spectator.co.uk/article/20th-november-1847/12/extermination-and-vengeance

    • Replies: @EldnahYm
  229. Mr. XYZ says:
    @Skeptikal

    I meant having massive population growth as a result of Russian “breeders” having a lot of space to expand into. So, it’s going to be Russians themselves who are going to be breeding a lot and thus eventually causing massive population growth in Russia–not immigrants!

  230. @Willem

    If you go 1mm under the skin (as an anatomist) you will not see a difference between men or women. And as said, and elaborated in this comment, I don’t even see a difference when I just look at people.

    OK, my previous comment wasn’t that good, more of a standard reply.

    Your position is wrong. It is not wrong because of the way you look at people. It is wrong because of the way the people whose difference you say you can’t see look at you. _They_ see a difference. In practice, the difference that they see is enough to break up the Democratic Party, as each different minority group in urban areas tries to seize control of the urban area for itself.

    If you think they are all mistaken, and you can cause them to realize this, then you could save the Democratic Party. If you cannot do that, then your failure to see difference is at variance with a major feature in your environment, comparable to that of a vision impaired person who won’t use vision correction devices (e.g. glasses) or accept corrective surgery.

    Counterinsurgency

    • Replies: @dfordoom
  231. dfordoom says: • Website
    @Malenfant

    Breeder genes are not going to come to the fore; in this particular case, it seems nurture is stronger than nature. (Can you identify those genes, if you’re so sure they exist?)

    You’re asking for actual evidence that breeder genes exist? We don’t need no stinkin’ evidence. We want to believe they exist. We need to believe they exist.

    You’re talking as if this is a matter of science. It’s a matter of faith.

    • Replies: @anonymous coward
  232. dfordoom says: • Website
    @Counterinsurgency

    It is wrong because of the way the people whose difference you say you can’t see look at you. _They_ see a difference.

    Of course there are differences. I presume Willem is arguing that the differences are almost entirely cultural. Which is possible.

    • Replies: @Willem
  233. @Counterinsurgency

    Any thoughts?

    What’s up with you over dramatizing things by making generalizations (without providing concrete examples) about how women have apparently died when they have had their “rights” taken away from them?

    You give off the vibe of some kind of wierd troll or shill that has a malicious purpose, so I’m really not interested in engaging with you at all …

  234. @dfordoom

    Not everything that is heritable is genetic, and not everything that is genetic is heritable.

    Example: coal mining is highly heritable, but there is no ‘coal mining gene’. Same with infant circumcision.

    • Replies: @dfordoom
  235. dfordoom says: • Website
    @anonymous coward

    Not everything that is heritable is genetic, and not everything that is genetic is heritable.

    Example: coal mining is highly heritable, but there is no ‘coal mining gene’. Same with infant circumcision.

    Yes, absolutely. It’s called culture. Cultural heredity is real.

    And for the past couple of thousand years it’s likely that cultural heredity has been a bigger factor than genetic heredity.

    • Replies: @anonymous coward
  236. Smith says:
    @dfordoom

    No demographics, no culture.

    Hell, culture STEMS from demographics.

    As we can see in America, as there are more brown people, even white people start to act more like brown people.

    Culture can be remade/relearned, once genetics are lost, it takes costly genetic editing to reform.

    • Replies: @dfordoom
  237. neutral says:
    @Kurt_5

    I also have to add that around 1900 the white population was around 25% of the population, now it is around 9% with the same fertility rates as the other formerly white nations.

  238. neutral says:
    @dfordoom

    We trashed our own societies

    There is now “we” here, the jews take the ultimate blame. They took over control of the USA, UK and USSR and it is they that firebombed white cities that resisted their rule, forced them to take mass non white immigration and produce the modern pop culture that preaches ethnic cleansing of whites. Jews trashed the white societies, we have to deal with the jews.

  239. dfordoom says: • Website
    @Smith

    As we can see in America, as there are more brown people, even white people start to act more like brown people.

    What is actually happening in America is that brown and black people have been acting more like white people. They have picked up the cultural degeneracy of white culture – the LGBT stuff, slut culture, the drug culture, the anti-family attitudes, the contempt for authority figures, the lack of respect for old people, celebrity worship, consumerism, hedonism, atheism.

    • Replies: @Smith
    , @iffen
  240. Smith says:
    @dfordoom

    Aksually, these cultures are actually strong in their native homeland or in super-diverse states, especially in California, South America and Africa where there are LESS white people. Have you taken a look at the Chilean protest recently?

    And no, I don’t think LGBT culture, slut culture, drug culture, anti-family attitudes, etc, etc are white people culture.

    Meanwhile, it is factual that white people in the US are acting more and more like brown people, with the commodification of rap and gangsta cultures.

    • Replies: @dfordoom
  241. dfordoom says: • Website
    @Smith

    And no, I don’t think LGBT culture, slut culture, drug culture, anti-family attitudes, etc, etc are white people culture.

    You definitely haven’t been paying attention to the history of the postwar era. All of the civilisation-destroying forces I listed were creations of the West. They were invented by us. By white people.

    Meanwhile, it is factual that white people in the US are acting more and more like brown people, with the commodification of rap and gangsta cultures.

    Everyone, white or brown or black, has been infected by our cultural decadence. As for rap and gangsta cultures you can blame capitalism for that. There’s money in it. And nothing matters besides money. That’s the modern West. Oh, and we invented capitalism as well. And liberalism. We invented everything that is dragging us down into the gutter and into chaos.

    And the US has exported its cultural degeneracy to the entire planet.

    Hint: we need to spend more time thinking and less time hating others for our own failures.

  242. EldnahYm says:
    @S

    Only about 3-4% of Irish emigrants were supported by landlords or the state, if Cormac O Grada’s book is right.

    • Replies: @S
    , @Philip Owen
  243. @AP

    I assume there’ll be selection. Large part of them get killed or enslaved, another part adapt and fight back… but then they stop being Amish (who are pacifists).

    • Replies: @AP
    , @Counterinsurgency
  244. @Colin Wright

    That depends on Germany winning WW2, in that case sure, if the system was stable and they managed to completely redefine the social matrix of a modern state, there might be many more Germans. However, we are considering “business as usual” scenarios (e.g., say, no WW1, or subsequent World Wars). The Nazis coming to power was a fluke, Hitler lucking out of confrontation before 1939 was lucky, Germany beating France in 1940 so quickly was also almost a fluke. (Of course, there’s also the ironic scenario that if Germany had also won against the USSR, but taken too long to do it – say, until 1944 – it may have become subject to American atomic democide, and ended up in a far worse state than it actually did).

    However, my basic point is that even WW1 was far from inevitable, the victory of Bolshevism in particular was an extreme fluke, while WW2 – in particular one that was as brutal as it was – was a fluke. Relative to “business as usual” scenarios, Russia’s power (demographic, economic) relative to Germany would have probably been substantially higher than it actually is.

  245. Contrast says:

    It is good for Russia if it is more violent and less prosperous than other countries because that makes it more resilient against third-world immigration than those other countries. There is less of a pull factor and those immigrants that do arrive face more resistance from the native population.

    Question is: What would happen if Russia became more prosperous, less violent and more liberal?

    The conviction that people are the same everywhere is ridiculous. What did Africans do during all those millennia when the rest of the world developed civilization? Africa supposedly had a head start of 150.000 years before home sapiens ventured outside. Africans did nothing with it. Some 19th century explorers like Livingstone met African communities who did not even know the wheel, for heaven’s sake.

    Africans are adapted to carrying on their genes in a resource-rich but unpredictable environment – like the ones crime-infested, welfare-dependent ghettos in the developed world are presenting to them right now. Among other things, this means that males are primarily adapted to competing with other males, and less adapted to extracting resources from nature since they can leave that part to the women. (As an aside, the more anarchic circumstances become in the developed world, the more Darwinian sense it makes for mostly low-quality white women to prefer African mating partners over white ones. So much for supposed female irrationality. Females are actually behaving very rationally in Darwinian terms. Feminist ideology is a deception they use, often a self-deception.)

    Problem is: Today’s resource-rich environment in the industrialized world depends on non African-traits dominating society.

    We live in a transitional phase. Africans cannot take over completely. The resource-rich environment they are taking over gets destroyed or Africans become less like Africans in the process or some ethnic patchwork emerges, likely a combination of all three.

    Globalist are banking on letting it all happen and steering it to their advantage.

    Non-globalists have to be clever about how to react to it. Accepting the ethnic patchwork as a given outcome appears to be most promising. Be like Christian minorities that have survived in the Near East since Islam took over.

    • Replies: @Counterinsurgency
    , @Dmitry
  246. dfordoom says: • Website
    @Anatoly Karlin

    On the subject of history and luck, one of the more spectacular examples was the death of the Empress Elizabeth. Had she lived another two years Frederick the Great would have been squashed like a bug. Prussia would probably not have become the dominant power in Germany. Germany might never have been unified, or it might have been unified under the Austrians. Imagine a Habsburg Empire including the whole of Germany.

    So Germany might never have been anything more than a geographical expression, or it might have been the first superpower.

    • Replies: @Contrast
  247. AP says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    They might retain everything but their pacifism vs. warlords. Their elders might decide that the brutal warlords are agents of Satan or something. Or they might come to an agreement with whichever warlord chooses to leave them alone, in exchange for food.

    For example, Amish have gotten around the restriction against electricity and cars by allowing their non-Amish neighbors to drive them places.

    Amish are physically very healthy people, loyal to one another, who know their way around guns. They would make a formidable force if they turned self-protection on.

  248. Emslander says:
    @Jake

    A number of commenters here, like elsewhere, are paid by the likes of the SPLC or ADL, etc.

    I’m not one of them, but if you could put me in touch with either of those orgaizations, I wouldn’t mind being paid for posting. I actually don’t know what they are. In the meantime, I think a lot of commenters here need to have the psychotropic drugs they’re taking adjusted away from the paranoid end of the spectrum.

    The Amish live and prosper the way 90 percent of the people in America prospered until the banks destroyed agriculture in the 1920’s.

  249. @dfordoom

    Labeling it as ‘culture’ is too specific and not correct.

    Coal mining is heritable not because of some ‘coal mining culture’, it is heritable because coal miners live in places where there are no other jobs and they don’t have the physical resources to move somewhere else.

    Another example is iodine deficiency – it makes people dumb, dumb people can’t move somewhere else or fix the iodine problem and go on to give birth to the next generation which grows up iodine deficient.

  250. argybargy says:
    @for-the-record

    But Egypt has been demographically swamped since ancient times, mostly by Arabs, whereas Greece has not. While the Greeks were eventually pushed out of Asia Minor back to within their traditional homeland, the Egyptians had no such buffer zone and had to absorb the invading hordes on their home territory. Most Egyptians today are not the same stock as the the ancients.

  251. @Mr. XYZ

    So the Subcontinent should be renamed as the “South Asian” subcontinent just to accommodate the Muslims? Next thing you know, you will advocate calling the Bronx, the Nueva Puerto Rico or Minneapolis the New Mogadishu or Jerusalem the New Mecca… when will the apologists of Islam stop with the nonsense? Enough is enough!

  252. @Malenfant

    Future, my good friend, is going to bring a violent clash between the Hindus and the Muslims of India for their dwindling resources and the outcome isn’t gonna be pretty for both sides.

    • Agree: Counterinsurgency
  253. S says:
    @EldnahYm

    That’s a big ‘if’ regarding those numbers you are presenting.

    The point still stands. The Irish, starving to death as they were, and shooting members of the British aristocracy in Ireland who were sponsoring or promoting the mass exodus of the Irish as wage slaves to foreign lands, suggest that maybe there is something majorly morally in error with the whole so called ‘cheap labor’/’mass immigration’ scheme that is the economic and political basis of the modern multi-cult society.

    It also suggest that people who promote such are not offering ‘a helping hand’ but are rather predators.

  254. Che Guava says:
    @Anatman

    Ynu are a moron, I am not a boomer (only heard the term recently, and my parents were according to that).

    The more interesting thing is wtf are you in IRL? Here, at least a misled moron os a paid progadandist.

    Probably on spare time from a crap job or just as a paid propagandist.

    • Replies: @Anatman
  255. Sparkon says:

    The painting atop Mr. Karlin’s article is “A Short Tour and Farewell” by French surrealist artist Raymond Douillet.

    These facts were brought to you by a real American Baby Boomer.

    Like many in my generation, I do care about such things as accuracy, fair play, attention to detail, and giving credit where credit is due.

  256. Anatman says:
    @Che Guava

    Oops, you got me – I’m working inside of a stuffy, secretive, abandoned warehouse building housing one of those troll farms you hear about, right this very instant. Gee, you’re a sharp one, how ever did you find out?

  257. Contrast says:
    @dfordoom

    More on history and good or bad luck (depending on viewpoint):

    Had Caeasar not been killed, then he would have departed on a military campaign just a few days later. The plan was to hone troops in attacking the Dacians and then use these troops in invading the Parthians. Had Ceasar defeated the Parthians, then several centuries of competition between Rome and Parthia and later between Byzantium and the Sassanid empire might have played out more in Rome’s favor. This competition eventually weakened both Byzantium and the Sassanid empire to a degree that allowed Islam to take over.

    Had the Great Khan Mongke not died, then Hulagu, brother to Mongke’s successor Kublai Khan, had not returned from campaigning in Persia, Iraq and Syria, a campaign that had already seen the total destruction of Baghdad. He left behind just 10000 troops which were defeated by Egyptian mameluks at the battle of Ain Jalut. Hulagu’s full force would probably not have been defeated due to sheer numbers. It would then have proceeded to conquering both Islam’s holy cities on the Arabian peninsula and Egypt. That would have brought the end of Islam.

    The Duke of Alba was under orders not to attack the English before the Great Armada that he was leading had not taken aboard Spanish troops that were on station across the channel. There were already thousands of infantry aboard theses ships when they were approaching the Southern coast of England while the English fleet was holed up in Southampton due to unfavorable winds. Had the Duke disobeyed orders by using these troops to destroy the English fleet in port, then the larger contingent could have been brought to England un-opposed. That would have brought England firmly under catholic rule, ultimately leading to the demise of Protestantism and a very different Europe.

    • Replies: @S
  258. @TheTotallyAnonymous

    You give off the vibe of some kind of wierd troll or shill that has a malicious purpose, so I’m really not interested in engaging with you at all …

    Then don’t. If you use the “this commentator” button below this message, you can block all my comments.

    Counterinsurgency

  259. zogborg says:

    The most fascinating people in the world is the Australoid race of the South Pacific. Who do the people of Papua New Guinea remind you of? Genetically they are closest to Asians despite outward appearance.

  260. annamaria says:
    @AP

    Y0u missed the point. One more time:
    https://www.tabletmag.com/jewish-news-and-politics/282575/jews-center-stage-in-ukraine-elections

    The transformation wrought in Ukraine by the Maidan revolution has been an exhilarating roller coaster that has not bypassed Ukrainian Jewry, which is now in the midst of an exciting period of cultural revival paralleling that of the wider Ukrainian society, which is still just beginning to rediscover its own past and imagine an independent future. Whether this post-Soviet country will choose to elect an openly Jewish president, or a part-Jewish president, or continue with its current philo-Semitic president, the future of Ukraine’s Jews would appear to be brighter than anyone might reasonably have imagined.

    Chalupa sisters and other Banderites (the self-proclaimed neo-Nazi) joined hands with the Kagans clan’ activists and with such locals as Kolomojsky (the leader of the Jewish community of Ukraine) and Pinchuk (a Jewish mega-donor for Clintons) in their fight against “Russian influence” or whatever. https://www.rt.com/usa/423731-russia-collusion-ukraine-oligarch-clinton/

    Pinchuk is a long-time Clinton donor (he’s given an estimated $13 million to the Clinton Foundation since 2006, according to the New York Times)… who is listed as a financial supporter of a vehemently anti-Russia, pro-NATO think tank.

    https://observer.com/2017/01/ukraine-hillary-clinton-donald-trump-election/

    In addition to the Chalupas, the co-founder and CTO of Crowdstrike, the cyber security firm that the DNC hired to investigate the alleged hacks, Dmitri Alperovitch also serves as a senior fellow to the Washington-based think tank Atlantic Council, which is an openly anti-Russian … The Atlantic Council is funded by [Jewish]-Ukrainian oligarch Victor Pinchuk, who also happens to be one of the most prolific donors to the Clinton Foundation. The DNC denied multiple requests from the FBI to access their servers, effectively forcing the FBI to rely on CrowdStrike’s assessment of the hacks.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victor_Pinchuk

    Victor Pinchuk contributed millions to both the British intelligence outpost known as the Atlantic Council and the Clinton Foundation and is an extremely important player in the British operations against Trump. … the filthy British operation run against the President is staffed by a group which might be called,“Veterans of the Ukraine coup.” Not only was Christopher Steele being paid as an informant of the FBI concerning Ukraine, he was also funneling his dirty memos to the State Department’s Victoria Nuland, the U.S. case officer for the coup. StopFake, the anti-Russia censorship and InfoWar network associated with the Chalupa sisters, is a full partner of the British military’s Integrity Initiative information warfare operation. That operation grew out of a British strategic determination for regime change in Russia following the 2014 Ukraine coup. https://larouchepac.com/20190322/john-solomon-breaks-old-story-all-roads-russiagate-lead-back-british-coup-ukraine-not

    This is for “AP” — Mazel Tov!

    • Replies: @Philip Owen
    , @Dmitry
    , @AP
  261. @Anatoly Karlin

    ‘…Relative to “business as usual” scenarios, Russia’s power (demographic, economic) relative to Germany would have probably been substantially higher than it actually is.’

    Your theories are perceptibly colored by Russian nationalist preferences, but I think you may be right here.

    Russia had more to lose; an enormous amount of potential that even now has yet to be realized. Today, it could easily be a first-world state in every sense of the word, with a population fifty percent larger than it is.

    Germany as well suffered catastrophic setbacks; but she had less to gain. Socially and economically, she was already in the broad, sunlit uplands, so to speak, and has only recently allowed developments that may reverse that. Even here, I strongly suspect the tidal influx of third world immigration will be reversed. That’ll be ugly to watch, but that doesn’t mean it won’t happen.

    Otherwise, how far and quickly Germany could have territorially expanded is questionable. It’s not the Middle Ages any more. In an age of nationalist consciousness and social sophistication, Slavs can’t just be converted into Germans by example, and the Nazis attempts at encouraging Germans to settle the East suggest that modern Germans just weren’t terribly interested in going off and being yeoman farmers in places where they weren’t wanted.

    As so often here, the Nazi experience matches the Zionist one. Just as the Zionists have never been able to get many Jews with an authentic choice in the matter to move to Palestine, so the Nazis were never able to get many Germans who had alternatives to move to even the annexed lands in Western Poland. My impression is that settlers there were were largely Bessarabian Germans fleeing Communist rule, and Lorrainer ‘Germans’ who could simply be told they were moving. Your basic Rhineland peasant preferred to stick with his ancestral two acres. Particularly given that the Nazis had relieved the immediate economic crisis, he was doing okay now, and he wasn’t about to go off to freeze in the wilds of Poland — much less the Ukraine.

    The point here is that while Russia could have radically increased her ‘size’ with development, it’s uncertain that Germany could have. She was already cutting edge socially and economically, and for that very reason, it’s uncertain she could have physically expanded much further than she already had by 1870; Germans weren’t going to move. I can’t see Germany managing to increase her effective territory by much more than about 20%. The rest would be more like a European colonial empire; gratifying to national vanity, but not much use otherwise.

    • Replies: @Skeptikal
  262. @Contrast

    Non-globalists have to be clever about how to react to it. Accepting the ethnic patchwork as a given outcome appears to be most promising. Be like Christian minorities that have survived in the Near East since Islam took over.

    Seriously, this amounts to the White settlements (a) becoming the only remaining source of loot and (b) having insufficient manpower to prevent raids. The endgame there is that of the Armenians. I don’t believe that this is a good strategy.

    Counterinsurgency

    • Replies: @Contrast
  263. @Counterinsurgency

    Ron Unz, is there a way to add more markup within posts, e.g. superscript for notes?

  264. @Anatoly Karlin

    I assume there’ll be selection. Large part of them get killed or enslaved, another part adapt and fight back… but then they stop being Amish (who are pacifists).

    Just to expand on that, for those who like detail:

    The Amish and Mennonite religions originated (ultimately) during the breakup of Catholicism during the run-up to the 30 Years War. Amish didn’t get their name until AD 1693 [1], about 45 years after the 30 Year’s War ended.

    Amish precursors were a kind of Anabaptists back then [3], a part of the Reformation more radical than most [4]. During the 30 Years War, the Anabaptists had the distinction of being killed as evil by both the Protestant and Catholic sides. Anabaptist tended to drop more of Christianity than most other groups, attempting in some cases to live like the Old Testament patriarchs, and of course none believed in the efficacy of baptism.

    For what it is worth, I once worked with a devout Anabaptist, who was still extremely angry at the way his antecedents had been treated in the AD 1500s and AD 1600s, and who turned out to be untrustworthy. Other contemporary Anabaptists, Mennonites in particular, have turned out to be extremely trustworthy.

    The Anabaptist survivors of the 30 Years War that have descendants today were the groups that advocated absolute pacifism. I suspect that existing Anabaptist groups (including Amish) have a strong institutional memory of their origin and would treat becoming a persecuted group as just more of the historical same. I also suspect that they would strongly resist dropping their pacifism. Of course, new groups might form that did drop pacifism, but these groups would not be recognized by their groups of origin.

    Counterinsurgency

    1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amish

    3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anabaptists

    4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radical_Reformation

  265. songbird says:
    @Dmitry

    It’s interesting to look at the different statistics for states. There is some idea that blacks vary a lot by region within the US, due to migration being a filter. According to this theory, the most elite blacks on the state level would be in Hawaii, followed by the North or West. Last of all would be the old slave states. But I don’t see any clear trend here. I bet you on a more local level – postal codes – the numbers would be really interesting.

    IMO, a lot of black fertility is from babymamas – I think they have the highest dysgenic trends among any group in the US. The black middle class probably has very low TFR.

    I almost feel sorry for Somalis because their land seems like a natural hellhole – even just climatically. Of course, I would still deport them all because I am not crazy.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  266. Skeptikal says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    This idea of a “fluke” in history is ridiculous and bizarre.
    As compared to what?

    The idea of a “fluke” relies on the concept of the existence of some kind of average. Ie.,
    In other early-twentieth-century Europes that we know of and can factor into our average, this event didn’t occur! Thus, when it did occur in “our” early twentieth-century Europe, the one we are talking about here, it is fluke!

    I really don’t think you can “average out” historic events—esp. major events—that are in essence unique.
    You can compare and contrast and collect statistics, but labeling WWI and every event that followed it a “fluke” and then drawing demographic conclusions from the flukiness is silly.

    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
    , @dfordoom
  267. Skeptikal says:
    @Colin Wright

    YOur argument makes a lot of sense, but doesn’t seem to cover the whole situation.
    I think a lot of Germans did emigrate . . . but to the USA, South America, and some other places, not to Eastern Europe.
    Maybe also like the Jews, given a choice they would prefer to take their chances in North America than in Poland/Israel.

    https://www.loc.gov/teachers/classroommaterials/presentationsandactivities/presentations/immigration/german4.html

    “A New Surge of Growth

    German immigration boomed in the 19th century. Wars in Europe and America had slowed the arrival of immigrants for several decades starting in the 1770s, but by 1830 German immigration had increased more than tenfold. From that year until World War I, almost 90 percent of all German emigrants chose the United States as their destination. Once established in their new home, these settlers wrote to family and friends in Europe describing the opportunities available in the U.S. These letters were circulated in German newspapers and books, prompting “chain migrations.” By 1832, more than 10,000 immigrants arrived in the U.S. from Germany. By 1854, that number had jumped to nearly 200,000 immigrants.

    For typical working people in Germany, who were forced to endure land seizures, unemployment, increased competition from British goods, and the repercussions of the failed German Revolution of 1848, prospects in the United States seemed bright. It soon became easier to leave Germany, as restrictions on emigration were eased. As steamships replaced sailing ships, the transatlantic journey became more accessible and more tolerable. As a result, more than 5 million people left Germany for the U.S. during the 19th century. “

  268. Contrast says:
    @Counterinsurgency

    Sure, what happened to the Armenians might well be what is held in store for Whites. The Armenians still have their own country outside Turkey, though, so things might not be so clear-cut. The point is that clinging to the idea of securing White homelands in the West might lead to mental self-blockade. If White homelands are out of reach, then what? Counterinsurgency sounds nice but what if staving off flat-out genocide were all it could realistically achieve? It’s not so much about what is to be done, it’s more about under what banner and with what mindset. A more fluent approach might help in coping with frustration. The Jewish diaspora survived two millennia on the basis of a hybrid mindset that perhaps included dreaming of a homeland. But it never took center-stage. Right-wing leaders do indeed keep talking of separatism and White homelands. They should start talking more of hiding one’s own Whiteness, inner emigration and forming tight-knit communities emulating the Jews. First and foremost, some form of religion needs to be invented that totally revolves around ethno-centrism. Such a religion already exists but it’s not for Whites, of course :-). Probably it has to be based on science. Whites should start worshipping their gene pool.

  269. Willem says:
    @dfordoom

    Yes, I mean cultural. But since cultural can mean so many things to people, I should clarify myself.

    So everyone who is sick wants to receive healthcare. So access to healthcare for all is cultural.

    Everyone who has kids wants them to have a good future. And since a good future is synonymous to good education, every kid should be able to receive a good education. So education for all is cultural.

    Nobody wants to work day in day out, so there should be rules that prevent people to become overburdened with work, which is cultural

    Things become more difficult when the definition of culture becomes murkier. To take an example from Ron Unz: Hispanics are more criminal. What does that mean? That Hispanics are more criminal? Or that Hispanics are more poor, and therefore become criminal (to make ends meet). The answer: stratify on socioeconomic status, and then you see that poor people are more criminal, independent if they are Hispanic or not. So here I would define that poverty leads to more criminality (to make ends meet) which is cultural. And if you want to do something about that you should challenge poverty with governmental help (e.g., basic income, help with getting people out of unemployment, or out of jail, etc). The racists disagree: they believe that skin colour is cultural. And since you cannot do anything about skin colour, you cannot do anything about crime from Hispanics. But you sure can hate them, that in fact is the easiest thing to do, much easier than taking the time in trying to understand someone else or someone else’s situation. Hating others also has this beautiful extra that, in comparison, it makes the person who hates another such a good person. Hating is a thing that insecure people are very good in. But since the hate is undefined you usually get that the hating person, sooner or later, starts to hate himself. From that moment onwards the only salvation, it seems to the hating person, is to cling to a group that has the same prejudice against others that you have and worship the most vocal leaders amongst that group. In that way you can continue your hate, but now in group context. You find your salvation (of not hating yourself) in the group, by giving up your own humanity. I think UR is a very interesting site as you can see that phenomenon occurring among the writing and the commenting. Of course not among all commenters (whom the cap fits should wear it), but there are plenty of (anonymous) commenters here who surely seem to have lost touch with reality, yet cling to the writers of UR as if they are gods whose words have to be defended against anyone who has a different opinion from them, certainly when such a dissident person acts like a humanist, communist, socialist, aims to be kind (the heresy). They usually expose themselves by being sarcastic or by plainly being nasty, which happens if you are just not capable (anymore) to try to listen to what the other has to say.

    I think the majority of racists are just lazy thinkers. In fact, I know plenty of people in the Netherlands who vote for political porties that are pure racist, yet these same people are also able to help others (with a non-white skin) who e.g., are in dire-straits or whose children need help, and some of their friends are non-whites. They are fine people, they just haven’t thought things through, which makes them sort of confused. But it usually doesn’t matter since the confusion is about something abstract that does not (or which they do not) relate with their own life.

    Now the media could do a real good job in educating what culture is to the masses, but they usually don’t. Most media are made by and read by people of affluence, and people of affluence are very class concious (more for themselves!), readers and writers of UR not excluded (except from Linh Dinh maybe, but he is a ‘special’ case). So instead of educating people about culture, the media manufacture all sorts of stories that scare readers to feel empathy towards other classes. And with that everything stays stable and looks fine for those who are affluent.

    Not that the affluent are to be envied. Their decadence is not inherited, but also cultural, that is that those who belong to the leisure class have nothing much more to do with their time, then to spend it with buying stuff, making silly arguments against one another, constantly feeling sad and disconnected from earth, because that is what boredom does to you. So if you want to challenge decadence, you should try to do something about the boredom of the leisure class and not hate the decadent rich.

    Or as Nietzsche said: ‘Against boredom, even the gods struggle in vain.’

    And now it’s high time to do something again instead of commenting here. But I appreciated your comment about ‘culture’, which is the reason why I wrote such a lengthy response.

  270. @Skeptikal

    This idea of a “fluke” in history is ridiculous and bizarre.
    As compared to what?

    As suggested by the existence of n=~200 polities, which allows for comparative historical experiments.

    For every successful Communist revolution (e.g. USSR, Cuba) there were about ten that failed. The vast majority of socialist states were militarily imposed by the USSR. Alternatively, one may read any history of the October Revolution and note the huge amount of separate things that went just right (or rather wrong) that enabled it to succeed.

    You can compare and contrast and collect statistics, but labeling WWI and every event that followed it a “fluke” and then drawing demographic conclusions from the flukiness is silly.

    There were plenty of war scares prior to WW1 that did not lead to its outbreak. Cumulatively, the risk was pretty high it would go off eventually, but far from assured.

    The rise of Nazism also consisted of a series of lucky breaks, and would have been impossible without the Communist threat represented by the USSR.

    I think most military historians would agree that Germany lucked out knocking out France so quickly in 1940.

    • Agree: AP
    • Replies: @Mr. XYZ
  271. S says:
    @Contrast

    I’ve sometimes thought it might make for an interesting fictional book plot regarding Genghis Khan ie if someone were to ever locate his still missing corpse, extract DNA from it, clone him, and then raise him in the modern art of warfare.

    Programmed not to attack his handlers Genghis Khan II’s services as an unbeatable warlord/super soldier (sort of a human Godzilla) could then be sold to the highest bidder. 😉

  272. @S

    If you really need a good general with Neo-Mongol aesthetics you’d be better off with Subotai (just make sure you keep him on a diet).

    • Replies: @S
  273. Mr. XYZ says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    As suggested by the existence of n=~200 polities, which allows for comparative historical experiments.

    For every successful Communist revolution (e.g. USSR, Cuba) there were about ten that failed. The vast majority of socialist states were militarily imposed by the USSR. Alternatively, one may read any history of the October Revolution and note the huge amount of separate things that went just right (or rather wrong) that enabled it to succeed.

    In regards to Russia, two things that appear to be especially significant in the Communist rise to power are:

    1. Kerensky’s refusal to make a deal with Kornilov to crush the Bolsheviks (instead deciding to arm the Bolsheviks to fight Kornilov!). Had Kerensky done this, this could have been Russia’s equivalent of Germany’s Ebert-Groener Pact.

    2. The Russian Tsars’ unwillingness to create genuine democracy in Russia in the pre-WWI era. Had they done this, maybe more Russians would have been willing to wait until the end of the war for new elections as opposed to supporting revolutionaries.

    There were plenty of war scares prior to WW1 that did not lead to its outbreak. Cumulatively, the risk was pretty high it would go off eventually, but far from assured.

    Richard Ned Lebow actually argues that the outbreak of WWI was a bit of a fluke. That said, though, had FF survived in 1914 and come to power in Austria-Hungary, Russia might have had an opportunity to spark an alternate WWI in 1917 if the Hungarians (due to their fear of FF) would have refused to renew their union with Austria at that point in time.

    The rise of Nazism also consisted of a series of lucky breaks, and would have been impossible without the Communist threat represented by the USSR.

    TBF, though, the threat of Communism in the 1920s didn’t cause a lot of Germans to vote for the Nazis. Rather, it was the Great Depression that did that. AFAIK, the Great Depression might still occur even if Russia doesn’t go Red. As for German conservatives putting Hitler into power, well, they weren’t exactly fond of Weimar democracy to begin with and already flirted with the idea of some kind of military coup and right-wing dictatorship even before they put Hitler into power. Putting Hitler into power allowed them to generate a lot of public legitimacy for the new right-wing dictatorship since they could count on Hitler’s 30+% support for their own cause. Of course, what they didn’t anticipate was Hitler’s subsequent outmaneuvering of all of them and his seizure of absolute power. Anyway, though, my point here is that I could still see Hitler or someone like him come to power in Germany even if Russia doesn’t actually go Red.

    As a side note, if Russia doesn’t go Red in 1917, I wonder if it would have become a right-wing dictatorship during the Great Depression. After all, by 1938, all Central and Eastern European countries other than Czechoslovakia became right-wing dictatorships. Why would a non-Bolshevik Russia have been an exception to this trend?

    I think most military historians would agree that Germany lucked out knocking out France so quickly in 1940.

    Yep–though didn’t Germany have air superiority back then?

    What really hurt France in 1940 was its inability to form an alliance with the USSR and/or the US in 1939. Either one of these–but especially the USSR–would have helped France in its war against Germany in 1940.

    Interestingly enough, the Fall of France was especially devastating for European Jewry since it paved the way for Operation Barbarossa as well as for the Nazi occupations of Hungary, Yugoslavia, and Greece.

    • Replies: @Skeptikal
  274. Anon 2 says:

    Stanisław Kowalski of Poland is now the oldest runner in the world.
    He is 109 years old (born in 1910). A new age division for World
    Masters Athletics, the M105 division, had to be created of which
    at the time he was the only member and hence all of his performances
    were world records. He credits his longevity to never going to the
    doctor!

    Poland’s life expectancy is 78.62 and rising at the rate of 0.2-0.3% a year.
    The United States’ life expectancy is 78.87, and has now declined 3 years
    in a row.

    Go Polonians! Go Slavs!

    • Replies: @Mr. XYZ
    , @Rattus Norwegius
  275. Mr. XYZ says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    However, my basic point is that even WW1 was far from inevitable, the victory of Bolshevism in particular was an extreme fluke, while WW2 – in particular one that was as brutal as it was – was a fluke. Relative to “business as usual” scenarios, Russia’s power (demographic, economic) relative to Germany would have probably been substantially higher than it actually is.

    Yeah, Russia got really fucked over during the 20th century–though at least it was lucky enough to keep its European homeland. Had the Nazis won WWII, they could have deported tens of millions of Slavs or more out of the European part of the USSR and into Siberia and/or Central Asia.

    As a side note, one would think that Israel was more fucked over by the 20th century than Russia was, no? I mean, the Holocaust eliminated millions of potential Ashkenazi Jewish immigrants to Israel–immigrants who could have really contributed to Israel, its progress, and its prosperity. Even with WWII but without the Fall of France, the Holocaust would have been at least two times less severe than it was in real life due to about three million less Jews ever ending up under Nazi rule.

    (Of course, there’s also the ironic scenario that if Germany had also won against the USSR, but taken too long to do it – say, until 1944 – it may have become subject to American atomic democide, and ended up in a far worse state than it actually did).

    If, after December 1941, it would have looked like the USSR was on the verge of collapse, might Britain and/or the US have sent a lot of their troops to the Eastern Front to help the USSR fight the Nazis?

    • Replies: @Philip Owen
  276. Mr. XYZ says:
    @Anon 2

    #PolandStronk
    #StronkPolonk
    #ShakingThatPolonkadonk

    • Replies: @polaco
  277. polaco says:

    Normiecons won’t like this, but generous parental leave & child support appear to be far better than banning abortion & social conservatism so far as promoting higher fertility and disincentivizing dysgenic reproduction patterns goes in First World countries.

    Just saw the article on lewrockwell, banning abortion and granting benefits are not mutually exclusive. Poland’s Law and Justice party government has now been giving direct monetary benefits at 500 PLN a month per child to families, leave and other benefits exist as in any social democratic/socialist country. What people need is actually to have confidence in the future, a strong economy and a strong job market, when the outlook isn’t too rosy you just delay starting a family, nevertheless Poland’s married couples are on average the youngest in the EU, and we’re no Arabs, Turks or what have you like France, Sweden or Germany- https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/the-nations-of-europe-by-the-average-age-at-first-marriage.html;

    Another way to spur population growth is the total absence of any benefits- when all you have to fall back on in old age is children and family you always have it in your mind and give it the deserved priority- and real free market capitalism to strengthen the economy, low taxes- as things stand now- income tax, petrol at $5 a gallon, tax accounts for two thirds of the cost of electricity and natural gas, a 24% value added tax, import taxes and duties, there is talk of introducing a real estate tax, land tax has existed even under communism, all the layers of taxes apply and affect everyone, from producers to suppliers, retailers, consumers, it’s a huge burden which exponentially increases the cost of living, but yes- there is free medical care and education if you’re too dumb to see, no real growth just chugging along; there were no socialist programmes and benefits during the Belle Epoque, yet Europe’s population was growing and Europe was as first world as could be. The total taxes per capita between 1870 and 1914 were about 12% in Europe and 9% in the US. Advances in technology, robotics and all that, have allowed governments to progressively steal more and more while the increasing productivity helped to obfuscate the disastrous consequences, initially the effects of such policy were hidden, but only until a time, the chickens are coming home to roost, the economies of Europe are dead.

    Poland is very holy – but it doesn’t seem to do it much good.

    Being holy will do you much good when you die. Anyway, this statement is absurd, taken together conservatives (Law and Justice, Confederation Liberty and Independence) got about 50% of the vote this parliamentary election, there has never ben a landslide like in Hungary. Communists who wanted to bring refugees in, spread homosexual and gender propaganda, who kiss Putins’s ass and the UE leaders’ boots have always gotten at least about 40-45%, every election, if they didn’t manage to win, one atheistic Russian agent, an open enemy of the Catholic Church- Aleksander Kwasniewski was president for 10 years, Russian propaganda has been inciting hatred towards the Church since the beginning of communism and it worked great (see that priest over there- he has a car and you schmuck must take the bus to work and similar nonsense- a car or a bathroom were luxuries in those days) all that in a supposedly “holy” country. Btw, the Russian minority (Bela-, Malorus, you name it) always votes close to 100% communist- for faggots and abortion, so long as it hurts Poland, just like they went all in for Bolshevism when it sounded really nice to steal from those who were better off, and now want to whitewash their guilt.

    • Replies: @dfordoom
    , @Anatoly Karlin
  278. Gerad. 12 says:
    @Svevlad

    Africans significantly smarter than the negroes in North,South and central America. This pattern is obvious in UK,Australia ,US and so on between Africans and Carribean people

  279. polaco says:
    @Mr. XYZ

    We’ve never fallen for your yiddish(it) lies, you had to use the russkies to take over and destroy our country.

    • LOL: Anatoly Karlin
    • Replies: @Mr. XYZ
  280. iffen says:
    @dfordoom

    Is that you, Thomas Sowell?

    • Replies: @dfordoom
  281. @Anatoly Karlin

    I will put in a bid for Saratov, the 3rd biggest city in what is now modern Russia during the Silver Age. It was wealthy this bourgeois so the Bolsheviks starved it (literally at times) of development until the late 1960’s. It is the natural port for the Russian Black Earth which might have been a food production area second only to the US Mid West. Chicago in Europe.

  282. Daniel.I says:
    @Mr. XYZ

    it seems eager to import a lot of Third Worlders

    God’s Chosen wouldn’t have anything to do with that, would they

    • Replies: @Mr. XYZ
  283. @Anon 2

    These tidbits of yours are fun. Keep up the good work!

    • Replies: @Anon 2
  284. @RadicalCenter

    The 5000 children who attend the 9 schools we up by my wife in poor parts of Zambia, courtesy of Quaker donors, are on the verge of starvation after 5 years of drought.. Only half of them have the energy to make it in for lessons. At 10p a day to feed them and 150 days to harvest it is £7500 to keep them alive (but parents, other family?). The big problem is £100 per family for 1000 families to replace seeds and buy fertilizer. Africa has problems. Warmer climate should be wetter. Not in Zambia.

    Dead children mean higher birth rates.

  285. @Mr. XYZ

    SPB & Odessa are both ports. Neither the Russian Empire nor Russia has many of those. Thus SPB has a reason to exist. SPB was the logical place for finance because of trade. It could have been an Amsterdam, Paris or Hamburg. London is perhaps too far a stretch.

    • Replies: @Mr. XYZ
  286. Mr. XYZ says:
    @polaco

    Actually, I hate Bolsheviks and Communists! IMHO, it was a terrible tragedy that some/many Jews supported them! 🙁

  287. Mr. XYZ says:
    @Daniel.I

    Unfortunately, they probably do. 🙁 IMHO, Jews should at least be consistent in regards to this by advocating the same kind of mass immigration that they advocate in regards to the West for Israel as well.

    • Replies: @Old Jew
  288. @YetAnotherAnon

    Sacco and Vanzetti were amateurs. The Haymarket anarchist did a better job!

  289. Mr. XYZ says:
    @Philip Owen

    The Russian Empire actually had several other parts: Tallinn/Reval, Riga, Nikolaev, Kherson, Mariupol, Yalta, Kerch, Novorossiysk, Sukhumi, Poti, and Batumi.

    • Replies: @Mr. XYZ
  290. @EldnahYm

    There was direct support by landlords. Usually compassionate but not common. However, once people were evicted, the cost of their support fell to the parish. It was often cheaper, particularly for coastal communities to pay to send the paupers to North America, a journey of many days than feed them in the workhouses for many months.

  291. @annamaria

    And Skripal was Steele’s source of names via Pablo Miller.

    • Replies: @annamaria
  292. @Mr. XYZ

    The British plan was to attack Baku from Persia to stop the Germans taking the oil. We had air superiority. It was possible.

  293. Skeptikal says:
    @Mr. XYZ

    Please do cite some military historians who assert that Germany “lucked out” in knocking France out.
    “Luck” would be if some factor such as the weather intervened to turn around an expected outcome.
    Not the facts on the ground that enabled a quick win, which I am sure have been thoroughly analyzed by military historians.

    Nothing Anatoly or Mr. XYZ has said counters my point that talking about a major historical event being “fluke” is just bizarre and ahistorical. As for the 10 failures to establish a Communist state compared to the 2 successes, again, a competent analyst will be able to explain why the two succeeded and the 10 failed. A concept such as “luck” or a “fluke” is magical thinking.

    I am just reading Richard Evans on the rise of Hitler; he does a rundown of the fascist impulses and regimes in other countries of Europe, yet points out some differences in the German situation that led to the outcome that we know. He doesn’t have to fall back on saying that it was just Hitler’s good luck! That is like explaining the plague via the activities of witches because you didn’t know about the Yersinia pestis bacterium.

  294. Anatoly this was you on top form. I was on my way out of Unz. The racism is very high even if I am trying to see all sides.

  295. @Contrast

    Good points. The posting of comments like yours suggests that thoughts of social reorganizations and “save what you can” are becoming more frequent and possibly acceptable.

    Interesting book, Mike Duncan, _The Storm Before the Storm_, 2017/10. History of the Late Roman Republic from roughly the Roman Republic’s high point — the defeat of Carthage — to just before its end, the time when Caesar, Pompey, and Crassus started their careers. Interesting parallels to Trump’s situation. One after another the rules of the established practice were violated to win a particular political contest. The violations became precedents and new violations took place. The entire set of incentives and the entire balance of the Roman Republic’s government gradually vanished after the end of the Carthaginian War, and was replaced with something that (on paper only) could be considered the Roman Republic.

    On the bright side, the Romans had always hated Kings, and they never did have a King. On the dark side, they had Emperors.

    Counterinsurgency

  296. Dmitry says:
    @Contrast

    Russia ….less prosperous

    Russia is wealthy, but incomes are comparatively low, especially in nominal terms (which are the relevant terms for immigrants’ remittances, that transfer across exchange rates).

    Immigrants from places like Africa, want higher incomes (and possibly welfare) as a result of their immigration – as part of income they then plan send back to their family in Africa, where purchasing power will be much higher.

    For example, in nominal terms, MacDonald’s in Australia pays $18 an hour for a same job, that McDonald’s in Russia pays $1,90 an hour.

    So only a very eccentric African immigrant would try to go to Russia, when you can generate 9,5 times more remittances if you can attain the same job in Australia.

    And maybe Australia is difficult, but if they get to Germany or UK, MacDonald’s salary is still 6 times higher than in Russia.

    (This is beside the fact there isn’t a route for them to even get near Russia, without travelling through EU, where it would be far more desirable for them to stay).

    resilient against third-world immigration

    Russia receives large third-world immigration and second-world immigration, but only from “captive markets” or “captive labour sources”.

    From third-world, these are Uzbekistan, Tajikistan, Kyrgyzstan.

    From second-world, these are Armenia, Georgia, Ukraine, Belarus, Kazakhstan, Turkmenistan.

    Immigrants from these countries come to Russia, because it is easy for them (although some countries like Turkmenistan and Ukraine try to complicate this emigration). There are open movement of labour with countries like Armenia and Uzbekistan.

    If they had a free choice, thene.g. probably most Uzbeks could prefer to immigrate to America or Australia, where they could generate higher remittances. But currently, Uzbeks can much more easily work in Russia.

    • Replies: @Philip Owen
  297. Dmitry says:
    @annamaria

    future of Ukraine’s Jews would appear to be brighte

    Jewish demographics in Ukraine must have collapsed even more than for other nationalities of Ukraine, and must have accelerated collapse in the last few years.

    Young people with Jewish heritage mass emigrate to Russia and Israel since 2014. (Israel received some number like 80,000 new citizens from Ukraine on the Law of Return in the years 2014-2018, as you can be eligible for Israeli citizenship if you have Jewish heritage to the third-generation, or are married to someone who has).

    In addition, even Germany gives German citizenship to Ukrainian Jews, or Ukrainians with Jewish heritage (as an apology for its crimes in the Second World War). So tens of thousands of Ukrainian Jews have emigrated to live in Germany as German citizens.

    Fertility rates of Jews in Ukraine were as low as 1,4 already in the 1980s. In addition, intermarriage rates (Jews marrying representatives of other nationalities) were over 70%.

    So there will be a demographic collapse of the Jews there, which will be for these additional factors, even more extreme than demographic collapse currently is for Ukrainians and Russians in Ukraine.

    On the other hand, there will be a small layer of very very rich people in Ukraine with Jewish heritage (you can see some posting pictures of their palaces in Kiev on instagram).

  298. Dmitry says:
    @songbird

    In California and New York – African Americans seem quite proletarian? (at least for my tourist eyes).

    And yet, their fertility rate is the lowest of all the races in those states. There might be a strong cultural transition to a “one child family model”.

    Somalis because their land seems like a natural hellhole – even just climatically. Of course, I would still deport them all because I am not crazy.

    They are Muslim, from a country with Islamic extremism, so they should not be allowed to immigrate for practical political reasons. Is it a good idea to have a community which could support Al-Shabaab, in Maine?

    On the other hand, Isak Dinesen praises Somalis, and especially she praises the manners of Somali women. Possibly, she has been romanticizing, however.

    • Replies: @songbird
  299. Old Jew says:
    @Mr. XYZ

    The American Jews are advocating for immigration. The Israeli Jews are not. Different populations with different values, No such thing as “The Jews”.

    • Replies: @Mr. XYZ
    , @iffen
  300. dfordoom says: • Website
    @Skeptikal

    This idea of a “fluke” in history is ridiculous and bizarre.

    I think “fluke” is the wrong word. But the outcomes of some major historical events were very uncertain and far from inevitable. Perhaps we should call it Karlin’s Historical Uncertainty Principle.

  301. dfordoom says: • Website
    @Contrast

    The point is that clinging to the idea of securing White homelands in the West might lead to mental self-blockade. If White homelands are out of reach, then what? Counterinsurgency sounds nice but what if staving off flat-out genocide were all it could realistically achieve? It’s not so much about what is to be done, it’s more about under what banner and with what mindset.

    The mindset is what matters. If you had a white homeland then within a generation white liberals would destroy it. There were lots of white homelands (Britain, Germany, Sweden). White liberals wrecked them all.

    Race is not the crucial factor. As you say, it’s the mindset. White homelands as such won’t help at all. We need healthy societies. Whiteness is definitely no guarantee of a healthy society.

  302. dfordoom says: • Website
    @polaco

    there were no socialist programmes and benefits during the Belle Epoque, yet Europe’s population was growing and Europe was as first world as could be.

    It was First World for some. For the poor it was Third World. It was the libertarian utopia – rich people paying very little tax and doing just great, poor people living in misery and squalor.

    And the seeds of the demographic decline of western European populations were already there by the mid-19th century.

  303. dfordoom says: • Website
    @iffen

    Is that you, Thomas Sowell?

    If I identify as being Thomas Sowell then I am Thomas Sowell. Only a hateful bigot would deny that. Thomas Sowell is a social construct.

    • LOL: iffen
  304. AP says:
    @annamaria

    The transformation wrought in Ukraine by the Maidan revolution has been an exhilarating roller coaster that has not bypassed Ukrainian Jewry, which is now in the midst of an exciting period of cultural revival paralleling that of the wider Ukrainian society

    So Jews prefer the new Ukraine to the old, just as Ukrainians do. So?

    Pinchuk is a long-time Clinton donor (he’s given an estimated $13 million to the Clinton Foundation since 2006, according to the New York Times)…

    Pinchuk was part of the Kuchma clan who were also behind Yanukovich.

    It’s funny that Ukrainian Jews play such a huge role in American politics. Pinchuk bankrolls the Clintons, now during the impeachment saga there is anti-Trump Ukrainian Jew Vindman versus the Jews behind Trump and Giuliani – Lev Parnas and Igor Furman:

    https://www.cnn.com/2019/10/23/politics/parnas-fruman-hustle-profit-access-giuliani/index.html

    ::::::::::::::

    BTW, Russia has had 3 or 4 Jewish Prime Ministers. Putin’s business partner in St. Petersburg, Nikolai Shamalov, is Jewish. Putin’s daughter married Shamalov’s son.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  305. annamaria says:
    @Philip Owen

    New article on Sic Semper Tyrannis, with a focus on the faux Russiagate and real Ukrainegate (see also some very informative comments) https://turcopolier.typepad.com/sic_semper_tyrannis/2019/11/more-evidence-that-the-comey-fbi-was-a-malevolent-clown-show-by-larry-c-johnson.html#more

  306. @S

    “I’ve sometimes thought it might make for an interesting fictional book plot regarding Genghis Khan ie if someone were to ever locate his still missing corpse, extract DNA from it, clone him, and then raise him in the modern art of warfare.”

    Yeah, because you heard Greg Cochran describe that exact story idea in one of his interviews with James Miller.

    • Replies: @S
  307. Mr. XYZ says:
    @Old Jew

    I meant that American Jews should also push for mass non-Jewish immigration to Israel if they insist on pushing for mass non-white immigration to the West.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  308. Maciano says:
    @LoutishAngloQuebecker

    Why is that a plus?

    Also, even if Africans go 100x, what will be the result? Not much. They’re like the NPC continent.

  309. @dfordoom

    Race is not the crucial factor. As you say, it’s the mindset. White homelands as such won’t help at all. We need healthy societies. Whiteness is definitely no guarantee of a healthy society.

    New England was, probably still is, about as Northeastern European WEIRD [1] as you can get. They’ve sponsored the Civil War, Reconstruction (perhaps the first serious attempt to reorganize an entire society to fit ideological/religions goals). New York City was founded by the Dutch, taken by the English, was as WEIRD as you can get, yet its leadership swamped its base population with immigrants from much less WEIRD parts of the world after the US Civil War. I make no comment on current events, you already know them. Obviously, WEIRD societies can fail badly.

    That doesn’t make the citizenry of WEIRD societies compatible with other societies, however. Race does matter, and (having encountered a few Anabaptist and Irish partisans/fanatics over the years in places where they predominate) I can say that so does ethnicity. WEIRD people don’t have extended kinship networks: kinship exists, but is weak. This can be traced back a very long way, to the Neolithic in fact [2]. WEIRDness is most likely genetic in character — not as aversion to cousin marriage, but rather as a fossil predominance of people who, given a free hand, would construct and maintain WEIRD societies.

    Surprisingly enough, attempts to introduce WEIRD societies to high kinship territories don’t make out well. The biggest example was the reversion, after several hundred years rule by WEIRD Europeans, of the Hellenistic southern shores of the Mediterranean to a completely different system after the Islamic conquests. Seems that the kinship nets and old way of doing things [3] had persisted under a Hellenistic and later Roman crust [4].

    The entire world is now undergoing the same open access that the Roman Empire gave to parts of Europe and the Mediterranean Basin. If kinship networks are allowed to, they can, have, and will displace WEIRD populations. You have to take that into consideration.

    Further, kinship societies are, if anything, even more competitive and invasive than WEIRD societies. There are several contemporary examples. I see frequent complains against the Jewish establishment, which is a kinship society. Consider that this group, frequently implied to be invincible and eternal, has been entirely displaced from the Middle East, rejected as thoroughly as the Greek diaspora, and this has happened recently. Obviously kinship societies are highly competitive both internally and externally. They are quite capable of displacing WEIRD societies.

    So that’s the problem you have. The idea of WEIRD people becoming what amounts to a kinship society might be feasible (consider various Anabaptists, Mormons, New Englanders (“Yankees”)), but they aren’t really all that good at it compared to ancestral kinship societies. I’d expect them to be eventually wiped out (as were the English populations of India, China, and Africa, who fortunately for them got a chance to retreat in moderately good order). Competition between societies are as fierce as any other competition between societies.

    Clearly, WEIRD people are losing badly just now. Historically, they’ve reorganized and recovered. Might happen this time, might not — the future is up for grabs.

    Counterinsurgency

    1] https://www2.psych.ubc.ca/~henrich/pdfs/WeirdPeople.pdf

    2] Kevin McDonald.
    _Individualism and the Western Liberal Tradition_

    3] You can trace Middle Eastern piety all the way back to the Sumerians.
    https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ancientpages.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2017%2F02%2Fblueeyessumer2.jpg&imgrefurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ancientpages.com%2F2017%2F02%2F23%2Fmysterious-sumerian-statues-big-blue-eyes-sign-gods%2F&tbnid=GD_dmg8acW-60M&vet=12ahUKEwjOs4eY9NzlAhUGbK0KHaUPCJsQMygHegUIARDsAQ..i&docid=L7758jXo4r4AGM&w=625&h=494&q=large%20eye%20%20face%20summerian%20gods&ved=2ahUKEwjOs4eY9NzlAhUGbK0KHaUPCJsQMygHegUIARDsAQ

    4] The Greeks and later Romans supported the Library of Alexandria. As soon as they left, no more funding. The locals had better things to do with their money.

    5] Colin Woodward.
    _American Nations_
    See map: http://www.colinwoodard.com/files/ColinWoodard_AmericanNations_map.pdf

    • Replies: @Skeptikal
  310. @dfordoom

    Race is not the crucial factor. As you say, it’s the mindset. White homelands as such won’t help at all. We need healthy societies. Whiteness is definitely no guarantee of a healthy society.

    New England was, probably still is, about as Northeastern European WEIRD [1] as you can get. They’ve sponsored the Civil War, Reconstruction (perhaps the first serious attempt to reorganize an entire society to fit ideological/religions goals). New York City was founded by the Dutch, taken by the English, was as WEIRD as you can get, yet its leadership swamped its base population with immigrants from much less WEIRD parts of the world after the US Civil War. I make no comment on current events, you already know them. Obviously, WEIRD societies can fail badly.

    That doesn’t make the citizenry of WEIRD societies compatible with other societies, however. Race does matter, and (having encountered a few Anabaptist and Irish partisans/fanatics over the years in places where they predominate) I can say that so does ethnicity. WEIRD people don’t have extended kinship networks: kinship exists, but is weak. This can be traced back a very long way, to the Neolithic in fact [2]. WEIRDness is most likely genetic in character — not as aversion to cousin marriage, but rather as a fossil predominance of people who, given a free hand, would construct and maintain WEIRD societies.

    Surprisingly enough, attempts to introduce WEIRD societies to high kinship territories don’t make out well. The biggest example was the reversion, after several hundred years rule by WEIRD Europeans, of the Hellenistic southern shores of the Mediterranean to a completely different system after the Islamic conquests. Seems that the kinship nets and old way of doing things [3] had persisted under a Hellenistic and later Roman crust [4].

    The entire world is now undergoing the same open access that the Roman Empire gave to parts of Europe and the Mediterranean Basin. If kinship networks are allowed to, they can, have, and will displace WEIRD populations. You have to take that into consideration.

    Further, kinship societies are, if anything, even more competitive and invasive than WEIRD societies. There are several contemporary examples. I see frequent complains against the Jewish establishment, which is a kinship society. Consider that this group, frequently implied to be invincible and eternal, has been entirely displaced from the Middle East, rejected as thoroughly as the Greek diaspora, and this has happened recently. Obviously kinship societies are highly competitive both internally and externally. They are quite capable of displacing WEIRD societies.

    So that’s the problem you have. The idea of WEIRD people becoming what amounts to a kinship society might be feasible (consider various Anabaptists, Mormons, New Englanders (“Yankees”)), but they aren’t really all that good at it compared to ancestral kinship societies. I’d expect them to be eventually wiped out (as were the English populations of India, China, and Africa, who fortunately for them got a chance to retreat in moderately good order). Competition between societies are as fierce as any other competition between societies.

    Clearly, WEIRD people are losing badly just now. Historically, they’ve reorganized and recovered. Might happen this time, might not — the future is up for grabs.

    Counterinsurgency

    1] https://www2.psych.ubc.ca/~henrich/pdfs/WeirdPeople.pdf

    2] Kevin McDonald.
    _Individualism and the Western Liberal Tradition_

    3] You can trace Middle Eastern piety all the way back to the Sumerians.
    https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ancientpages.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2017%2F02%2Fblueeyessumer2.jpg&imgrefurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ancientpages.com%2F2017%2F02%2F23%2Fmysterious-sumerian-statues-big-blue-eyes-sign-gods%2F&tbnid=GD_dmg8acW-60M&vet=12ahUKEwjOs4eY9NzlAhUGbK0KHaUPCJsQMygHegUIARDsAQ..i&docid=L7758jXo4r4AGM&w=625&h=494&q=large%20eye%20%20face%20summerian%20gods&ved=2ahUKEwjOs4eY9NzlAhUGbK0KHaUPCJsQMygHegUIARDsAQ

    4] The Greeks and later Romans supported the Library of Alexandria. As soon as they left, no more funding. The locals had better things to do with their money.

    5] Colin Woodward.
    _American Nations_
    See map: http://www.colinwoodard.com/files/ColinWoodard_AmericanNations_map.pdf

  311. @dfordoom

    Race is not the crucial factor. As you say, it’s the mindset. White homelands as such won’t help at all. We need healthy societies. Whiteness is definitely no guarantee of a healthy society.

    New England was, probably still is, about as Northeastern European WEIRD [1] as you can get. They’ve sponsored the Civil War, Reconstruction (perhaps the first serious attempt to reorganize an entire society to fit ideological/religions goals). New York City was founded by the Dutch, taken by the English, was as WEIRD as you can get, yet its leadership swamped its base population with immigrants from much less WEIRD parts of the world after the US Civil War. I make no comment on current events, you already know them. Obviously, WEIRD societies can fail badly.

    That doesn’t make the citizenry of WEIRD societies compatible with other societies, however. Race does matter, and (having encountered a few Anabaptist and Irish partisans/fanatics over the years in places where they predominate) I can say that so does ethnicity. WEIRD people don’t have extended kinship networks: kinship exists, but is weak. This can be traced back a very long way, to the Neolithic in fact [2]. WEIRDness is most likely genetic in character — not as aversion to cousin marriage, but rather as a fossil predominance of people who, given a free hand, would construct and maintain WEIRD societies.

    Surprisingly enough, attempts to introduce WEIRD societies to high kinship territories don’t make out well. The biggest example was the reversion, after several hundred years rule by WEIRD Europeans, of the Hellenistic southern shores of the Mediterranean to a completely different system after the Islamic conquests. Seems that the kinship nets and old way of doing things [3] had persisted under a Hellenistic and later Roman crust [4].

    The entire world is now undergoing the same open access that the Roman Empire gave to parts of Europe and the Mediterranean Basin. If kinship networks are allowed to, they can, have, and will displace WEIRD populations. You have to take that into consideration.

    Further, kinship societies are, if anything, even more competitive and invasive than WEIRD societies. There are several contemporary examples. I see frequent complaints against the Jewish establishment, which is a kinship society. Consider that this group, frequently implied to be invincible and eternal, has been entirely displaced from the Middle East, rejected as thoroughly as the Greek diaspora, and this has happened recently. Obviously kinship societies are highly competitive both internally and externally. They are quite capable of displacing WEIRD societies.

    So that’s the problem you have. The idea of WEIRD people becoming what amounts to a kinship society might be feasible (consider various Anabaptists, Mormons, New Englanders (“Yankees” [5])), but they aren’t really all that good at it compared to ancestral kinship societies. Remember how thoroughly the Southern shore of the Mediterranean recovered after the Romans left. I’d expect them to be eventually wiped out (as were the English populations of India, China, and Africa, who fortunately for them got a chance to retreat in moderately good order). Competition within societies are as fierce as any other competition between societies.
    So, yes, WEIRD population does not mean a healthy society. However, mixing a WEIRD population with a kinship based population means no WEIRD society at all, and the out-competition of genetically WEIRD nuclear families by the kinship network. One man cannot win against battalions. WEIRD people might be better at understanding nature, but that doesn’t matter much in competition within a society, only in competition between societies [6].
    Clearly, WEIRD people are losing badly just now. Historically, they’ve reorganized and recovered. Might happen this time, might not — the future is up for grabs.

    Counterinsurgency

    [MORE]

    1] https://www2.psych.ubc.ca/~henrich/pdfs/WeirdPeople.pdf

    2] Kevin McDonald.
    _Individualism and the Western Liberal Tradition_

    3] You can trace Middle Eastern piety all the way back to the Sumerians.
    https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ancientpages.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2017%2F02%2Fblueeyessumer2.jpg&imgrefurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ancientpages.com%2F2017%2F02%2F23%2Fmysterious-sumerian-statues-big-blue-eyes-sign-gods%2F&tbnid=GD_dmg8acW-60M&vet=12ahUKEwjOs4eY9NzlAhUGbK0KHaUPCJsQMygHegUIARDsAQ..i&docid=L7758jXo4r4AGM&w=625&h=494&q=large%20eye%20%20face%20summerian%20gods&ved=2ahUKEwjOs4eY9NzlAhUGbK0KHaUPCJsQMygHegUIARDsAQ

    4] The Greeks and later Romans supported the Library of Alexandria. As soon as they left, no more funding. The locals had better things to do with their money.

    5] Colin Woodward.
    _American Nations_
    See map: http://www.colinwoodard.com/files/ColinWoodard_AmericanNations_map.pdf
    6] and sometimes not even then. Constantinople fell to heavy artillery made in Hungary and used by the Ottoman Turks. The Turks didn’t know about concentrating their fire against curtain walls as triangular patterns, but were told by helpful Christians from Eastern Europe (I forget the nation) who didn’t’ much like Constantinople. As with sending all US manufacturing knowledge (technology) to China, better understanding doesn’t help in inter-societal competition if you earn a few pennies by selling it to the opposition.

  312. S says:
    @Herbert West

    Nope. Never heard of either person. It’s not surprising if others might of thought of the same thing.

  313. songbird says:
    @Dmitry

    In California and New York – African Americans seem quite proletarian?

    This comports with my observations as well, but, when I contrast what I have seen of Harlem with what I have heard of its past, I wonder if the liberalization of welfare, hasn’t been very disastrous for blacks. Perhaps, these regional differences in the qualities of blacks were more notable in the past?

    Is it a good idea to have a community which could support Al-Shabaab, in Maine?

    Putting them there really just seems political. Maine is kind of an economically depressed area. A lot of its economy is seasonal – fishing, tourism. Some local, pozzed politician said the welfare money of the Somalis would be good for the local economy.

    Been a while since I read Dinesen, I think some of the words she put in the mouths of blacks were perhaps overly poetical, but I seem to recall she touched on Somali clan warfare.

    • Replies: @Skeptikal
    , @Dmitry
  314. @polaco

    Yes, Russia is infamous for supporting pro-EU politicians. /s

    Poles contributed 10%-20% of high-ranking Cheka/OGPU through to the mid-1920s (including, ofc, Dzerzhinsky) and the 1st Revolutionary Regiment “Red Warsaw” helped put down anti-Bolshevik revolts in Moscow, Yaroslavl, and Tambov. But do tell us more about whitewashing.

    • Replies: @Mr. XYZ
  315. Skeptikal says:
    @Counterinsurgency

    IMO this comment is really weird.
    Weird is an adolescent value judgment of some kind.
    I have read Woodard’s American Nations—wonderful book—and he does not traffic in useless notions such as “weird.” His map also does not support any concept of “weird.”

    If you want to be taken seriouslyl (love that formulation—someone here used it recently on a perfectly normal American female), don’t rely on punctuating your sentences and ideas with “WEIRD.” It makes you look intellectually helpless and hapless.

    • Replies: @AP
    , @Counterinsurgency
  316. Skeptikal says:
    @songbird

    ” Some local, pozzed politician said the welfare money of the Somalis would be good for the local economy.”

    OMG, who could be so stupid?
    In fact, the Somalis are stretching local charity and other resources beyond the breaking point.

    Meanwhile, populations that would actually bring more cash into circulation in the local economy—I speak of retirees with Social Security benefits, not to mention their private pensions as well, to spend on themselves and their grandchildren—are exactly a demographic that will stay away in droves from a community overrun with destitute Africans.

    • Agree: songbird
  317. Mr. XYZ says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    Why were the Polonkadonks so attracted to Bolshevism? Was it because they were oppressed by Tsarist Russia just like the Jews were?

  318. Dmitry says:
    @Mr. XYZ

    I think this is one of the main activities of the liberal American Jews in Israel. (I will add a MORE tag as it is offtopic).

    [MORE]

    Liberal American Jews are not bipolar views, they want to impose the same political views in America and in Israel.

    These NGOs are successful because of EU and American funding. New Israel Fund receives $30 million a year from American Jewish donations.

    In Israel, New Israel Fund are successful because the Supreme Court has ultimate power. Israel has right-wing talking politicians, but left-wing policies, because ultimate power is Supreme Court.

    Here is some story of how New Israel Fund was successful stopping Israel deporting Sudanese/Eritreans to Rwanda.

    • Replies: @Mr. XYZ
    , @iffen
  319. AaronB says:

    Sir Charles Eliot on the Somalis-

    It is certainly to be desired that we should utilise the Somalis. There can be no doubt that they are the most intelligent race in the Protectorate, though it may be urged with some justice that they are also proud, treacherous, fanatical, and vindictive. Too much stress, I think, is often laid on these bad qualities, and it is certain that the average Englishman has little sympathy for the Somali. He tolerates a black man who admits his inferiority, and even those who show a good fight and give in ; but he cannot tolerate dark colour combined with an intelligence in any way equal to his own. This is the secret of the almost universal dislike of the Babu, and it reappears in the unpopularity of the Somali among East African officials. The Somali are not willing to agree to the simple plan of having a fair fight and then shaking hands when defeated, but constantly indicate that they think themselves our equals or superiors, and not unfrequently prove it.

  320. AP says:
    @Skeptikal

    WEIRD is a technical term that stands for “Western Educated Industrial Rich and Democratic.”

    Everything you want to know about WEIRD:

    https://theindependentwhig.com/haidt-passages/haidt/weird-morality-and-style-of-thought/

    [MORE]

    “I’m going to tell you a brief story. Pause after you read it and decide whether the people in the story did anything morally wrong.”

    “A family’s dog was killed by a car in front of their house. They had heard that dog meat was delicious, so they cut up the dog’s body and cooked it and ate it for dinner. Nobody saw them do this….”

    “A man goes to the supermarket once a week and buys a chicken. But before cooking the chicken, he has sexual intercourse with it. Then he cooks it and eats it.”

    got my Ph.D. at McDonald’s. Part of it, anyway, given the hours I spent standing outside of a McDonald’s restaurant in West Philadelphia trying to recruit working-class adults to talk. with me for my dissertation research. When someone agreed, we’d sit down together at the restaurant’s outdoor seating area, and I’d ask them what they thought about the family that ate its dog, the woman who used her flag as a rag, and all the rest. I got some odd looks as the interviews progressed, and also plenty of laughter-particularly when I told people about the guy and the chicken. I was expecting that, because I had written the stories to surprise and even shock people.

    But what I didn’t expect was that these working-class subjects would sometimes find my request for justifications so perplexing. Each time someone said that the people in a story had done something wrong, I asked, “Can you tell me why that was wrong?” When I had interviewed college students on the Penn campus a month earlier, this question brought forth their moral justifications quite smoothly. But a few blocks west, this same question often led to long pauses and disbelieving stares. Those pauses and stares seemed to say, You mean you don’t know why it’s wrong to do that to a chicken? I have to explain this to you? What planet are you from?

    These subjects were right to wonder about me because I really was weird. I came from a strange and different moral world-the University of Pennsylvania. Penn students were the most unusual of all twelve groups in my study. They were unique in their unwavering devotion to the “harm principle,” which John Stuart Mill had put forth in 1859: “The only purpose for which power can be rightfully exercised over any member of a civilized community, against his will, is to prevent harm to others.”‘ As one Penn student said: “It’s his chicken, he’s eating it, nobody is getting hurt.”

    The Penn students were just as likely as people in the other eleven groups to say that it would bother them to witness the taboo violations, but they were the only group that frequently ignored their own feelings of disgust and said that an action that bothered them was nonetheless morally permissible. And they were the only group in which a majority (73 percent) were able to tolerate the chicken story. As one Penn student said, “It’s perverted, but if it’s done in private, it’s his right.”

    I and my fellow Penn students were weird in a second way too. In 2010, the cultural psychologists Joe Henrich, Steve Heine, and Ara Norenzayan published a profoundly important article titled “The Weirdest People in the World?”‘ The authors pointed out that nearly all research in psychology is conducted on a very small subset of the human population: people from cultures that are Western, educated, industrialized, rich, and democratic (forming the acronym WEIRD). They then reviewed dozens of studies showing that WEIRD people are statistical outliers; they are the least typical, least representative people you could study if you want to make generalizations about human nature. Even within the West, Americans are more extreme outliers than Europeans, and within the United States, the educated upper middle class (like my Penn sample) is the most unusual of all.

    Several of the peculiarities of WEIRD culture can be captured in this simple generalization: The WEIRDer you are, the more you see a world full of separate objects, rather than relationships. It has long been reported that Westerners have a more independent and autonomous concept of the self than do East Asians} For example, when asked to write twenty statements beginning with the words “I am … ,” Americans are likely to list their own internal psychological characteristics (happy, outgoing, interested in jazz), whereas East Asians are more likely to list their roles and relationships (a son, a husband, an employee of Fujitsu).

    The differences run deep; even visual perception is affected. In what’s known as the framed-line task, you are shown a square with a line drawn inside it. You then tum the page and see an empty square that is larger or smaller than the original square. Your task is to draw a line that is the same as the line you saw on the previous page, either in absolute terms (same number of centimeters; ignore the new frame) or in relative terms (same proportion relative to the frame). Westerners, and particularly Americans, excel at the absolute task, because they saw the line as an independent object in the first place and stored it separately in memory. East Asians, in contrast, outperform Americans at the relative task, because they automatically perceived and remembered the relationship among the parts.4

    Related to this difference in perception is a difference in thinking style. Most people think holistically (seeing the whole context and the relationships among parts), but WEIRD people think more analytically (detaching the focal object from its context, assigning it to a category, and then assuming that what’s true about the category is true about the object).5 Putting this all together, it makes sense that WEIRD philosophers since Kant and Mill have mostly generated moral systems that are individualistic, rule-based, and universalist. That’s the morality you need to govern a society of autonomous individuals.

    But when holistic thinkers in a non-WEIRD culture write about morality, we get something more like the Analects of Confucius, a collection of aphorisms and anecdotes that can’t be reduced to a single rule.6 Confucius talks about a variety of relationship-specific duties and virtues (such as filial piety and the proper treatment of one’s subordinates).

    If WEIRD and non-WEIRD people think differently and see the world differently, then it stands to reason that they’d have different moral concerns. If you see a world full of individuals, then you’ll want the morality of Kohlberg and Turiel-a morality that protects those individuals and their individual rights. You’ll emphasize concerns about harm and fairness.

    But if you live in a non-WEIRD society in which people are more likely to see relationships, contexts, groups, and institutions, then you won’t be so focused on protecting individuals. You’ll have a more sociocentric morality, which means (as Shweder described it back in chapter 1) that you place the needs of groups and institutions first, often ahead of the needs of individuals. If you do that, then a morality based on concerns about harm and fairness won’t be sufficient. You’ll have additional concerns, and you’ll need additional virtues to bind people together.

  321. Quintus says:

    The one thing that surprised the most is how big the population of France in the Middle Ages was vis-a-vis the rest of Europe. How can that be?

  322. Dmitry says:
    @songbird

    I found PDF of the book, so you can search the text for the word “Somali”.
    https://www.fadedpage.com/link.php?file=20170717-a5.pdf

    Her servant was Somali, and he is one of the main heroes in the story.

    She describes Somalis as a roaming, warrior cossacks of Africa.

    “Your behaviour to them affects them strongly, in fact, you can hardly move without affecting the fierce burning prigs of the desert in one way or the other, and, very often, not without deeply hurting them. They have a keen sense of gratitude and will also bear malice for ever. A benefit, like an offence or a slight, is written in stone in their hearts.”

    Somali women she describes as being like some natural princesses, with very good manners.

    “Their own clothes played a tremendous part in their lives, which was no wonder, since to them they were all at once material of war, booty of war, and symbols of victory, like conquered banners.

    Their husband, the Somali, is abstinent by nature, indifferent to food and drink and to personal comfort, hard and spare as the country he comes from: woman is his luxury. For her he is insatiably covetous, she is to him the supreme good of life: horses, camels and stock may come in and be desirable, too, but they can never outweigh the wives.

    The Somali women encourage their men in both inclinations of their nature. They scorn any softness in a man with much cruelty; and with great personal sacrifices they hold up their own price. These women cannot acquire a pair of slippers in any possible way except through a man, they cannot own themselves but must needs belong to some male, to a father, a brother or a husband, but they are still the one supreme prize of life.

    It is a surprising thing, and to the honour of both parties, what amounts of silks, gold, amber and coral the Somali women get out of their men.”

    Overall, she admires very much – especially the women.

    The Somali system was at once a natural necessity and a fine art, it was both religion, strategy, and ballet, and was practised in allrespects with due devotion, discipline and dexterity. The great sweetness of it lay in the play of opposite forces within it.

    Behind the eternal principle of refutation, there was much generosity; behind the pedantry what risibility, and contempt of death. These daughters of a fighting race went through their ceremonial of primness as through a great graceful war-dance; butter would not melt in their mouth, neither would they rest till they had drunk the heart’s blood of their adversary, they figured like three ferocious young she-wolves in seemly sheep’s clothing.

    The Somali are wiry people, hardened in deserts and on the sea. Heavy weights of life, strenuous pressure, high waves, and long ages, must have gone to turn their women into such hard, shining amber.

    • Agree: songbird
    • Replies: @songbird
  323. Great article! One thing missing is the dominionist/7 Mountains Christians, and freaked out neo-nazi types, who are breeding at a staggering rate. Within a 20 mile radius of where I live, I know of at least 7 families with at least 7 children, 1 family with 9, and one with 11. Somebody oughta look into this. (These are folks who believe they’re addressing the disappearance of white people, along with belief that the more kids they have, the faster they can take control of the world.)

  324. Mr. XYZ says:
    @Dmitry

    Stopping deportations of African asylum seekers to Rwanda, while certainly noble, isn’t that significant in the grand scheme of things considering that there are only tens of thousands of them in total. If the New Israel Fund would have actually advocated in favor of Israel accepting hundreds of thousands or even millions of non-Jewish immigrants, then what they would be doing would be comparable to what is currently happening in the West–where whites are on track to lose their majorities in countries such as the US, Canada, possibly Australia, and maybe even some Western European countries as well.

    • Agree: Thulean Friend
    • Replies: @Dmitry
  325. songbird says:
    @Dmitry

    Probably easier to admire them in East Africa than in Minneapolis or Lewiston.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  326. Dmitry says:
    @Mr. XYZ

    Israel received 3 times more Sudanese and Eritrean immigrants than all EU countries combined to 2011. And EU has 62 times Israel’s population.

    So it is significant and you see the illegal immigrants quite a lot in Israel (at least when you are in cities like Tel Aviv).* In per capita terms, there will be more illegal immigration in Israel than in most Western European countries.

    There is differential policy though – illegal immigrants from countries (like Ukraine/Georgia) that Israel has diplomatic relations with, can be deported quite brutally/efficiently, but illegal immigrants from countries that do not recognize Israel (Sudan, Pakistan, Eritrea, etc) are staying there as long as they choose.

    For a while, they could be imprisoned arbitrarily to Holot detention for 9 months – but Israel’s Supreme Court has banned that now (after New Israel Fund challenged), so they are free to stay.

    In addition, they have free access to Israel’s medical and education system, including universities. A large proportion of births in Tel Aviv are from these groups (and also most of the crimes in the Southern parts of the city).

    It costs a lot of tax, contributes to increasing housing costs, crowding of hospitals, and closing of schools in the city (to make new schools for the children of illegal immigrants). In addition, the crime statistics in the city skyrocketed since the arrival of the illegal immigrants. I don’t think it is positive for Israel.

    On the other hand, there is some cheap labour for Israeli businesses and hotels as a result.

    deportations of African asylum seekers to Rwanda, while certainly noble,

    This is not deportation – voluntary immigration in exchange for payment. Israel deports Ukrainians and Georgians, but it cannot deport citizens of states it does not have diplomatic relationships with.

    So citizens of these states are not deported, but there is a program where they can voluntarily emigrate to a third country in exchange for payment of a few thousand dollars.

    In the case of Eritreans and Sudanese, they often do not want to return to their country, so Israel had an agreement with Rwanda, where they could choose to go to Rwanda instead. However, after this pressure from human rights groups, then Rwanda has said it withdraws from the agreement.

    * Even in Jaffa, you can see many are working/living there now (I wonder what Arabs think, as this was not like this when I visited last in Israel in 2018).

    • Replies: @Mr. XYZ
  327. Dmitry says:
    @songbird

    easier to admire them in East Africa than in Minneapolis

    Isak Dinesen was living in Africa in 1914-1931, when Kenya was English colony (Somalia was Italian).

    So, even Africa has changed vastly since that time. In that time, the population of these nationalities was vastly smaller, and they still lived almost completely traditional and romantic lifestyle, although with European controlled government.

    The area seems to become much more chaotic and dystopian over the 20th century. And also I doubt anything like Al-Shabaab existed in Dinesen’s epoch of her African life.

    I mean, would you go on holiday to Somalia today? Yet in Dinesen’s epoch, it seemed safe for the European woman to travel all over the countryside by herself and go and even stay in tents of different African tribes. The people never treat her badly, rob her, or kidnap her – the only dangerous thing seems to be diseases, lions and hippopotamus.

    • Replies: @songbird
  328. @TheTotallyAnonymous

    On re-reading your comment.

    You haven’t had serious exposure to women. Take a look at almost any divorce. The kids ordinarily get hashed, and so does the husband. Women can go full bore Medea or Clytemnestra if they think they have been treated badly. That’s one reason to work hard at having a good marriage — all the alternatives are far worse.

    Counterinsurgency

    • Replies: @Denis
  329. Manu says:

    Anatoly – cool post, but you lost me at point #25. 100B people, really? Perhaps if you had 100B cave-dwelling, loincloth-wearing plant eaters. But not 100B people enjoying current standards of living and current rates of consumption. We are already living beyond the limits of what this poor planet of ours can sustain.

    Check out: https://www.stockholmresilience.org/research/planetary-boundaries/planetary-boundaries/about-the-research/the-nine-planetary-boundaries.html and https://qz.com/1347735/how-many-people-can-earth-support-its-carrying-capacity-isnt-infinite/.

    • Replies: @Counterinsurgency
  330. songbird says:
    @Dmitry

    It’s hard to wrap one’s head around the differences between 2019 Africa and 1919 Africa. What would that be – about a tenth the population, or close enough? And imagine the differences in attitude – totally differential, subservient in their own country. Nowadays, Somalis invade and straightaway join a hostile, parasitical coalition.

  331. S says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    Subotai had just the right combination of brilliance and utter ruthlessness to win his many victories.

    It was a good thing he felt compelled to return home to Mongolia when Ögedei Khan died in 1241 which gave the unconquered portions of Europe some much needed respite.

    • Replies: @melanf
  332. Mr. XYZ says:
    @Dmitry

    Israel received 3 times more Sudanese and Eritrean immigrants than all EU countries combined to 2011. And EU has 62 times Israel’s population.

    Yes, and Israel subsequently built a big, beautiful wall to keep out all of the diversity. Had Israel been willing to accept several tens of thousands of non-Jewish, non-Jewishly connected people every year, then it would have been more notable.

    Just ask yourself how many non-Jewish, non-Jewishly connected immigrants Israel has ever accepted and then compare that with the number of non-white immigrants that the West has accepted over the last several decades–and then adjust these figures for population.

    • Agree: Thulean Friend
    • Replies: @Dmitry
  333. melanf says:
    @S

    For inspiration – the monument to Subotai in Tuva

    • LOL: S
  334. @Anatoly Karlin

    1) Territory still plays some role (I’m pretty sure that the fact that Germany had one of the weakest baby booms in Europe is not independent of the fact that it was choke-full of refugees from the lost eastern territories), and it might again play a huge role in the coming AoIM, should it happen. It also matters a lot in terms of independence – Germany is probably the most dependent on exports among all the major powers, and it’s probably not a coincidence.

    2) This is to a very large extent the responsibility of Russia’s leaders in 1914, who pursued a needlessly aggressive foreign policy in pursuit of stupid goals. Russia was already big enough (maybe too big, demographically speaking – did it need tens of millions of hostile Poles and others inside its borders?), and with a low population density (even relative to carrying capacity), but it was still obsessed with expansion.

    Sure, the Germans have been definitively driven out of Eastern Europe, but their population and GDP is only perhaps 20% lower than it would have otherwise been.

    It might be considered a victory of sorts for Germany, had they remained independent. They are not. So I fail to see how what happened could be thought to be better for them than Russia becoming a hyperpower next door to them. Although it’s possible that such a Russian hyperpower would’ve annexed huge chunks of eastern German territory (though that would have required a major war, so maybe WW1, just a few years or decades later..?), and it might have broken up Germany altogether (as was proposed by Tsar Alexander III in a private conversation with one of his ministers), but demographically speaking Germany would probably be better off (the Tsar wouldn’t have ethnically cleansed East Prussia and Silesia), its immigration situation wouldn’t be any worse (likely better), and it’s not independent anyway. German national pride would also be higher in that alternative scenario. I fail to see how Germany is somehow better off now than in an alternative reality without world wars.

    I think it’s more sensible to just say that demographically speaking or in terms of the size of the economy relative to world economy, Russia lost the most in the 20th century. Still, it became one of only two nuclear superpowers (China might close the gap later), and it’s one of the very few truly independent great powers today, so its status is hardly low, even as it is. Germany certainly lost more since 1914: it lost its independence, its national pride, huge areas historically settled by Germans, it’s a mere shadow of what it once was. Russia at least is still an independent power center with one of the strongest militaries in the world, relative to 1914 (the actual reality, as opposed to potential) it’s actually stronger now than it was back then.

    • Agree: Denis
    • Replies: @Denis
  335. @Manu

    See science fiction book:
    J. T. Bass
    _Half past Human_

    for a plausible look at a post human society with about 10^12 humans — sort of. Bass was a medical student, and assumed tht such a world woult be managed with the all the empathy of a 1960s urban hospital / city government.

    Counterinsurgency

  336. Dmitry says:
    @Mr. XYZ

    built a big, beautiful wall to keep

    It stopped human trafficking route across the Sinai.
    However, in relation to African immigration. It was:
    1. Many years too late – and illegal immigrants now cannot be deported.
    2. Illegal immigrants can just arrive enter Israel by plane now.

    For example, after a wall was completed, the illegal immigrants were almost all men. However, today illegal immigrants are quite gender balanced (men and women), with extremely high fertility. All these Sudanese (and I believe Somali) women you see in Tel Aviv in Muslim costumes – they must have arrived in plane as they were not described until recently.

    Yet when I walked through South Tel Aviv in 2018, there were Sudanese (maybe Somali) women in large numbers, and children all over the streets. Even girls (who are perhaps 8 years old) wearing burka/hijab.

    keep out all of the diversity.

    I think Israel is the most diverse country I have been to yet (and I have visited America, etc). There’s a problem of people talking about countries they have not visited.

    been willing to accept several tens of thousands of non-Jewish, non-Jewishly connected people every year, then it would have been more notable.

    There are tens of thousands of Christian Filipinos, Colombians, Ukrainians (although Ukrainians are being deported since then), etc.

    Again it’s problem of people talking about countries they do not interact with. Last time I was in Israel, I was surprised to be walking behind groups of Uzbek workers.

    then compare that with the number of non-white immigrants that the West has accepted over the last several decades

    Well, UK, for example, is still 90% white, and is definitely not going to collapse anytime soon (For example, Hindus in the UK, become perfect middle class citizens of the country, although the Muslims are usually much more of a problem there). On the other hand, Israel is about 30% white and 80% immigrant, and feels like it could collapse from a panoply of too many strange races, religions and cultures.

    Both countries will require a more selective immigration system. However, in UK case, the country will probably survive some previous bad decisions. In Israel, it’s more of a “too much multiracial, multicultural, multireligious chaos”, has already become very difficult for daily life there.

  337. Mr. Hack says:
    @AP

    You must have broken “Annamaria’s” heart, or at least her composure by pointing out that prominent Jews abound within Russia as well, to this day. Poor, poor Annamaria, she’ll have to learn to adjust her conspiracy theories to allign with reality or sulk immeasurably in her newfound knowledge. 🙁

    • Replies: @annamaria
    , @annamaria
  338. iffen says:
    @Dmitry

    they want to impose the same political views in America and in Israel.

    This is true.

    I have noticed a massive lobbying effort by them to get the US to apply the same tactics at our southern border as the Israelis apply at the Gaza border.

    • LOL: reiner Tor
    • Replies: @Dmitry
  339. annamaria says:
    @Mr. Hack

    “…conspiracy theories..”

    — Here is the original thought of “AP” (post No 140): “It was not an advantage for Ukraine to have all of those Russians in its borders.”

    Not to be impolite toward Mr. Hack, Mazel Tov to you, Mr. Hack.
    Mazel Tov to Mr. Hack with the liberating transformation of Ukraine into a banderite-zionist client state. Enjoy your advantage of having all those non-Russians within Ukraine’s borders. What a glorious time for the Kaganat of Nuland! (former Ukraine)

    https://www.tabletmag.com/jewish-news-and-politics/290021/from-ukraine-to-israel-and-back-again

    When Benjamin Netanyahu arrived in Kyiv this week to meet with the country’s new president, Volodymyr Zelensky, it was the Israeli prime minister’s first official meeting with another world leader of Jewish descent. …

    I [Vladislav Davidzon] have personally heard on numerous occasions from nationalist members of Ukrainian [banderite? neo-nazi?] volunteer battalions who tell me that Israel, like Ukraine, is, “surrounded by enemies while keeping a modern economy going,” and therefore, “to be emulated.”

    The context: “Israel Is Arming Ukraine’s Blatantly Neo-Nazi Militia, the Azov Battalion” https://imemc.org/article/israel-is-arming-ukraines-blatantly-neo-nazi-militia-the-azov-battalion/

    More on the tender feelings between zionists and banderites: “Netanyahu Meets With Head Of Ukrainian Party That Includes Neo-Nazis” https://forward.com/fast-forward/427430/netanyahu-meets-with-head-of-ukrainian-party-that-includes-neo-nazis/

    Birds of a feather flock together.

    • LOL: Mr. Hack
    • Replies: @Dmitry
  340. iffen says:
    @Old Jew

    No such thing as “The Jews”.

    Does this mean that there is no Jew York Times?

  341. Denis says:
    @reiner Tor

    Agree with the second half of your comment, disagree with the first, especially point 2).

    Germany is really only better off demographically and economically in comparison with post-WW2 Russia, in reality Germany was utterly recked by the World Wars and the accompanying massacres. Unlike Russia and China, it is extremely questionable how Germany could ever possibly become a great power again, given its current circumstances.

  342. Denis says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    Germany could easily have become the global economic superpower had it not embarked on the ludicrous stupidity of the 2 World Wars.

    • Agree: iffen
  343. Mr. XYZ says:
    @Denis

    In such a scenario, Germany would have been the top dog in Central and Western Europe but certainly not in Europe overall due to Russia being much more of an economic superpower than Germany is in a scenario where Russia never actually goes Red/Bolshevik.

    • Replies: @Denis
  344. Mr. XYZ says:
    @Mr. XYZ

    I meant “ports” rather than “parts” here.

  345. Denis says:
    @Counterinsurgency

    So the reason you work hard at having a good marriage is because you’re afraid your wife will murder your kids if you don’t?

  346. @Denis

    How so? Even if Russia vanished off the map, it would have been directly comparable in population/GDP to Japan if it had, but Japan never did become a global economic superpower.

    • Replies: @iffen
    , @Denis
  347. Denis says:
    @Mr. XYZ

    Germany would clearly have had competitors and peers, but a lot of things would have to go just right for Russia to displace Germany as the dominant power in Europe if Germany had managed to attain that position in the first place. And Germany could very easily have reduced much of eastern Europe to economic vassalage if WW1 had not happened.

    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
  348. iffen says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    They could have chipped away at their constraints if they had had patience. They could have even ended up with the parts of Russia that had substantial German population, not to mention everywhere else.

    Austria

    We’s all Germans now!

  349. @Denis

    Eh, how? Even in 1914 was a comparatively small country in the middle of Europe, totally dependent on exports to other states (most of them increasingly antagonistic) and therefore potentially very vulnerable to protectionism. Nothing like the huge domestic market of the US, not many natural resources either. Colonial empire was mostly worthless.
    I don’t think there was a conscious decision by Bethmann Hollweg etc. to “embark” on a world war in 1914 (though their behaviour was quite irresponsible and reckless), but the imperialists who eventually came to argue during WW1 that Germany needed to control its own continental bloc if it wanted to stay truly independent and become a world power on the same scale as the US, Russia and the British empire were probably correct.

    • Replies: @iffen
    , @Mitleser
  350. iffen says:
    @German_reader

    Eh, how?

    Human capital

    • Replies: @German_reader
  351. @iffen

    Russia potentially had plenty of human capital as well (even the writer of the surviving part of Generalplan Ost recognized this in his own warped way, arguing that Russia was especially dangerous, because the Russian peasantry contained “Nordic types” who had proven themselves as capable engineers during industrialization). And in much larger numbers, also vast natural resources.
    So in those fundamentals Ak is quite correct imo. He might underestimate the problems arising from the political system of the Tsarist empire and national issues though, at least I can’t recall him ever having gone into the details of how Russia should have dealt with those serious problems, if WW1 hadn’t happened.

    • Replies: @iffen
  352. annamaria says:
    @Mr. Hack

    What was the reason for your joyful LOL? Was it the Netanyahu’s brotherly visit to Kyiv or Israelis’ brotherly support for banderite volunteers?

    Your country of Ukraine has been degraded to a banderite-zionist client state, yet you continue peddling childish stuff about bad Russian wolf. Who needs Russians when you have your Chalupas & Kolomojsky & Vindmans laboring hand-in-hand with the whole flowerbed of ziocons such as the Kagans?

    Here is your bright future: While the Russian language is a no-no in Ukraine, both Yiddish and Hebrew are welcome: http://www.votezion.org.ua/en/u-sionistskoyi-federatsiyi-ukrayini-z-yavivsya-kanal-i-grupa-v-telegram/

    At present, ZFU [ Zionist Federation of Ukraine] carries out the following projects: The Hebrew Speaking Club in Kyiv, Chernivtsi and Melitopol. This year it is planned to open clubs in Kharkiv and Lviv….

    At the same time in Lviv: https://www.rferl.org/a/critics-blast-lviv-ban-on-russian-language-culture/29500756.html

    The passage of the moratorium on Russian-language content came as the city of Lviv opened its 25th annual book forum…

    Mazel Tov, Mr. Hack.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  353. Jimi says:
    @Skeptikal

    Texas, Colorado, Washington and Oregon

  354. iffen says:
    @German_reader

    I can’t recall him ever having gone into the details of how Russia should have dealt with those serious problems

    No, he hasn’t, unless you count “Monarchy Good.”

    • Replies: @German_reader
  355. Mr. Hack says:
    @annamaria

    Who needs Russians when you have your Chalupas & Kolomojsky & Vindmans laboring hand-in-hand with the whole flowerbed of ziocons such as the Kagans?

    So, you’re equating the perniciousness of Russian interference within Ukraine with that of the ziocons.You’re right on track, tovarishch! 🙂

    Who needs Russians is how most Ukrainians feel today towards their thieving and murdering”brothers” to the north!

    • Replies: @annamaria
    , @annamaria
  356. Denis says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    I’m glad you brought up Japan, it’s precisely by comparing Germany to Japan that I reached my conclusion.

    Consider:

    Germany’s population in 1914: 65.8 mil.

    Japan’s population in 1914: ~54 mil.

    Germany’s economy in 1913: ~237.3 bil.

    Japan’s economy in 1913: ~71. bil.

    At the start of WW1, Germany had a substantially larger population than Japan, and had a substantially greater landmass with which to house its population. Yet, today, Japan’s population (>126 mil.) has grown to be almost 50% bigger than that of Germany. Despite this demographic reversal, Japan’s economy is not proportionately larger than that of Germany; its gdp ppp is 5.7 tril. while Germany’s is 4.3 tril. This indicates that German workers are more productive than those of Japan. Yet, Japanese workers themselves are so productive that for a time their economy was second only to that of America, and left all others (except Germany) utterly in the dust. Japan did indeed come very close to becoming a global economic superpower.

    Consider then what the world would look like if Germany had not suffered the population losses of the wars and the massacres that accompanied them, and what its economy would be like had it not been wrecked by those wars and the treaties that ended them. If Germany were able to continue its massive economic miracle and population expansion, it’s entirely possible that it would have become the dominant economic power in Europe, and eventually the world.

    Unlike Japan, which has been unable to reduce its neighbours to economic colonies, Germany is able to do that even today via the EU, despite all its setbacks. Germany’s economic advantage over eastern Europe would likely be even greater had it (Germany) not been trashed epically, and it could well have made the Balkans, Scandinavia, the middle east, and southern Europe into German playgrounds, solving the need for export markets. I suspect that fear of this was one of the reasons for Britain’s defensive posture towards Germany in the lead-up to the war.

    Finally, although Germany was probably further along in the demographic transition than Japan was, it could have continued, or even accelerated, its population growth with a method Japan has never been willing to use; by attracting immigrants. Germany could have pulled in immigrants from other European nations with ease, and was already doing so to a limited extent.

    Basically, imagine Germany with 50% more land, continuous economic growth, most of Europe as vassal states, and a population the size of Russia’s. The power that such a country would have would be massive.

  357. @iffen

    No, he hasn’t, unless you count “Monarchy Good.”

    Have to agree about that. I don’t find AK’s view that the Tsarist system was basically sound convincing, imo a state where leftist revolutionaries manage to murder several thousand officials (and where elites can’t come up with much more than repression as a solution…and then are careless enough to stumble into a major war over Balkan issues) can’t be regarded as all that stable. Maybe there would have been a path to successful reform without the war, but it’s far from certain imo.
    That reminds me that Ak still hasn’t reviewed that book by McMeekin about the Russian revolution (which supposedly blames it all on bad weather)…hopefully he’ll still do that.

    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
  358. @Denis

    How, exactly? Germany has “reduced much of eastern Europe to economic vassalage” of a sort today, that’s doesn’t translate to political control.

    German TFR fell to close to replacement level rates by the 1920s, which capped out its maximum population at well less than 100 million. It would have needed to maintain a threefold GDP per capita advantage over Russia (just within current borders!) just to maintain economic parity, assuming absolutely no convergence of Russian incomes whatsoever. A ludicrous scenario that was only realizable under Communist economics.

    Yet, Japanese workers themselves are so productive that for a time their economy was second only to that of America, and left all others (except Germany) utterly in the dust.

    “Utterly in the dust” is stretching it to bursting point.

    It was a distant second to the US. Though sure, some hysterics with no grasp on demographics briefly thought otherwise.

    Basically, imagine Germany with 50% more land, continuous economic growth, most of Europe as vassal states, and a population the size of Russia’s.

    Even a Germany that avoided all its wars would have a population of ~90M instead of 82M (assuming similar proportional emigration). Just to match Russia’s current, Communism-halved, population, it would need to add many tens of millions of immigrants. Which is ludicrously unrealistic, and besides, those countries would themselves be much richer than they are without Communism, with no huge incentives to emigrate in large numbers.

    Only chance for Germany to become a global economic superpower in 20th century:

    1. Germanize tens of millions of Slavs: 200M*25%, or whatever the Generalplan Ost ratio was supposed to be = eventually 50M –> 130M Germans.
    2. Make sure NatSoc mores stick, maintaining TFR at 3 children per woman and maintaining 1960s US like pop growth rates indefinitely.
    3. 200M-250M Germans by 2000. That’s =~ the number of White Americans today, so would indeed qualify as global economic superpower.

    • Agree: AP, Mr. XYZ
  359. @Dmitry

    I have seen black africans working on construction sites in Moscow. 2014 though.

  360. iffen says:
    @Denis

    Axe-shul-lee we need to amend it to a global superpower rather than the.

    • Replies: @Denis
  361. @Denis

    The Berlin to Baghdad railway, by now, with 4 tracks extending to the UAE and long high speed sections would have given Germany a very important economic base. Germany and Japan were early with technical education, hence the productivity. Up to WW2, British and US chemists expected to read German to stay at the leading edge.

    • Replies: @Denis
  362. annamaria says:
    @Mr. Hack

    “So, you’re equating…”
    — Please, don’t project — this is a poor habit characteristic for Israelis.

    Here is your star activist Mr. Vindman, a Ukrainian “refugee” who grew up in Little Odessa among “all the Russian and Ukrainian immigrants, many of them Jewish, like the Vindmans.” https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2019/11/huge-schiff-witness-vindham-testified-that-he-thought-presidents-policy-was-wrong-so-he-advised-ukrainians-to-ignore-the-president/

    Somehow you have missed this morsel of information: http://www.votezion.org.ua/en/u-sionistskoyi-federatsiyi-ukrayini-z-yavivsya-kanal-i-grupa-v-telegram/

    At present, ZFU [ Zionist Federation of Ukraine] carries out the following projects: The Hebrew Speaking Club in Kyiv, Chernivtsi and Melitopol. This year it is planned to open clubs in Kharkiv and Lviv….

    while the banderite purists in Lviv ban the Russian language: https://www.rferl.org/a/critics-blast-lviv-ban-on-russian-language-culture/29500756.html
    Mazel Tov! Mr. Hack.

  363. iffen says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    that’s doesn’t translate to political control.

    They run the EU. What the f*** do you want? The Chancellor can unilaterally make devastating decisions without any consultations and make them stick.

    • LOL: Denis
  364. Denis says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    How, exactly? Germany has “reduced much of eastern Europe to economic vassalage” of a sort today, that’s doesn’t translate to political control.

    Well, not direct political control, but the German government is clearly the most powerful voice in the European Union, and this stems from its dominant economic position within that Union. Since America is currently dominant in Europe, Eastern Europe’s subordinate status translates into subordination to America, but if America had never entered the picture as a result of the wars, then it doesn’t take a huge leap to see those same eastern states being subordinate to Germany instead.

    German TFR fell to close to replacement level rates by the 1920s, which capped out its maximum population at well less than 100 million. It would have needed to maintain a threefold GDP per capita advantage over Russia (just within current borders!) just to maintain economic parity, assuming absolutely no convergence of Russian incomes whatsoever. A ludicrous scenario that was only realizable under Communist economics.

    Grant the TFR, but I think that a slightly above replacement growth + immigration could have easily increased the population of Germany substantially. I doubt that the cap rests at 100 million. I think Germany could easily have had a population greater than that of Japan, and possibly as great as modern Russia’s. This is without mentioning the potential for a rebound in the TFR, annexation of further territories (like Austria, for example), increased life expectancy, decreased emigration, etc.

    Russia meanwhile, was growing at a very rapid rate, but only about 70% of its population was actually Orthodox Russians, iirc. Germany, by contrast, was one of the most linguistically and ethnically homogenous countries in Europe. Russia’s huge economic growth was not successfully lifting the population out of poverty, with much of it being captured by mercantile minorities like Jews and Germans. The population was mostly illiterate; Germany was almost 100% literate. Germany was on the verge of displacing Britain in the realm of global trade on the eve of WW1; Russia was just kicked out of Manchuria by Japan and was failing to defeat an insurgency of nihilistic Jews.

    Believe me, I root for Russia, and I agree that Russia could have had a way better 20th century. However, I’d argue that Germany’s potential was very similarly stunted.

    • Replies: @AP
    , @Anon 2
    , @S
  365. Denis says:
    @Philip Owen

    Yes, developments like that were precisely what I had in mind wrt Germany’s potential economic size and power.

  366. annamaria says:
    @Mr. Hack

    Know your heroes and heroines: http://thesaker.is/guess-whats-neither-meat-nor-fish-but-ms-chalupa-and-john-schindler-by-scott/
    Chalupas and the US/UK ziocons:

    It was hailed by the likes of CNN as an “expression of democratic outrage with Russia’s aggression.” … this massive bot-attack was organized by a brand new organization based in the US called “Digital Maidan.”

    The organization was financed by the Khodorkovky-Soros “Open Russia Foundation” among others and ran by a woman named Andrea Chalupa. … Andrea Chalupa and her two siblings are actively involved with other sources of digital terrorism, disinformation and spamming, like TrolleyBust com, stopfake org, and informnapalm.

    Ms. Chalupa kept cooperating with the Khodorovky owned magazine “The Interpreter.” Now, it’s a part of RFE/RL run by the government-funded Broadcasting Board of Governors (BBG) whose director, Dr. Leon Aron also a director of Russian Studies at the American Enterprise Institute.

    According to the research of leaked John Podesta emails, “Arthur Brooks, president of the conservative nonprofit American Enterprise Institute, helped billionaire Clinton donor Lynn Forester de Rothschild secure the support of Republicans for Hillary Clinton. …

    With a caution that “if it’s Ukrainians – more than Russians – who are interfering with our country, we have a right to know” George Ellison recently published a comprehensive research on the Chalupas and Dmitri Alperovitch, titled “Why Crowdstrike’s Russian Hacking Story Fell Apart – Say Hello to Fancy Bear.”

    Mazel Tov! Mr. Hack.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  367. Denis says:
    @iffen

    Yeah, that’s probably right.

  368. Denis says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    Just to match Russia’s current, Communism-halved, population, it would need to add many tens of millions of immigrants. Which is ludicrously unrealistic

    Let’s wait and see what Angela Merkel has to say about that!

  369. Dmitry says:
    @iffen

    No, they want to impose the same immigration policy that they support in America, in Israel.

  370. Mr. Hack says:
    @annamaria

    Who’s “projecting” and who obviously doesn’t know how to put togethera cogent sentence that reflects your ideas? You wrote:

    Who needs Russians when you have your Chalupas & Kolomojsky & Vindmans laboring hand-in-hand with the whole flowerbed of ziocons such as the Kagans?

    Unfortunately, I got involved in this thread by commending AP for a nice job in shutting you up. He wrote:

    BTW, Russia has had 3 or 4 Jewish Prime Ministers. Putin’s business partner in St. Petersburg, Nikolai Shamalov, is Jewish. Putin’s daughter married Shamalov’s son.

    But in reality, Russia is full of of Jews represented in all walks of life, similarly to Ukraine, and you don’t make your foolish crackpot statements about this fact. Your god-man Putler has met with Netenyahu at least 60 times over the last few years, they seem to be symbiotic twins. Why don’t you make anything out of this, instead of always harping about Ukraine and its Jews?

    • Replies: @annamaria
  371. AP says:
    @Denis

    Germany was on the verge of displacing Britain in the realm of global trade on the eve of WW1; Russia was just kicked out of Manchuria by Japan and was failing to defeat an insurgency of nihilistic Jews.

    Japan defeat was a bit of a fluke IIRC and Russia by 1914 was much improved from 1905.

    • Replies: @Denis
    , @Mr. XYZ
  372. Mr. XYZ says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    1. Germanize tens of millions of Slavs: 200M*25%, or whatever the Generalplan Ost ratio was supposed to be = eventually 50M –> 130M Germans.

    Yep–though even this might not be that easy to achieve within a short time-frame since people often aren’t willing to give up their cultures and languages.

    2. Make sure NatSoc mores stick, maintaining TFR at 3 children per woman and maintaining 1960s US like pop growth rates indefinitely.

    German fertility was at 2.3-2.4 in 1939, no?

    3. 200M-250M Germans by 2000. That’s =~ the number of White Americans today, so would indeed qualify as global economic superpower.

    Just how many of those Germans are going to live in Eastern Europe (including the European part of the USSR) right now in this scenario?

    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
  373. Mr. XYZ says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    How, exactly? Germany has “reduced much of eastern Europe to economic vassalage” of a sort today, that’s doesn’t translate to political control.

    If the EU will eventually become a political union as well as an economic union, then things might eventually be different in regards to this. That said, though, I suspect that this is not going to happen anytime soon due to there probably being too much opposition to this idea among other Europeans.

  374. Anon 2 says:
    @Denis

    By 1914 Germany has managed to antagonize all of its neighbors,
    and developed a very bad reputation especially in Poland and Bohemia
    due to its 1200 year Drang Nach Osten. The only way Germany could
    expand significantly eastward in 1914 would have been by first killing
    35 million Polonians, incl. 3 million Jews. You have no comprehension
    how hated the Germans were in Poland in 1914 due to the Partitions
    of Poland, Bismarck’s Kulturkampf, and the German tendency to use
    extreme violence, amply demonstrated over the last 1200 years. In many
    ways Germans are still hated and distrusted in Europe. You can’t treat
    people like garbage for centuries without the people finally responding
    in kind.

  375. Anon 2 says:
    @Denis

    Once Germany becomes a civilized country, then we can talk. But Germany
    practiced slavery as recently as in 1945. Civilized countries don’t do that,
    demonstrating that Germany has a long way to go before it proves to the world
    that it deserves to join the community of civilized nations. By definition,
    violence and civilization are opposites. Hence the United States is barely
    civilized because of its high level of violence, both internal and external
    (e.g., invasion of Iraq).

    • Replies: @Counterinsurgency
  376. @Denis

    Japan today is handicapped by being under total American domination, even Germany has a freer had then them

    • Replies: @S
  377. @Mr. XYZ

    That’s all true. I’m indeed having to be generous to make Denis’ scenario work.

  378. @Skeptikal

    I often use words and concepts with technical or even stipulative definitions, and clarify them for the general reader in the footnotes. If you have questions on what meaning I’m assigning to specific words this time, quite often the footnotes will answer those questions.

    Counterinsurgency

  379. @Anon 2

    That’s a “true Scottsman” argument [1]. Besides, by the “violence precludes civilization” definition, there aren’t any civilized countries.

    Counterinsurgency

    1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

  380. S says:
    @Korenchkin

    Well, one thing is certain, Japan and Germany, having each been under US military occupation for almost 75 years now, are both very much satellite states of the United States.

    So close is the relationship (special relationship?) between the US and Japan that Japan is sometimes even referred to as ‘the Britain of the Far East’ in regards to its relationship with the US.

    Japan to Become ‘Britain of the Far East’

    With possible flashpoints ranging from the Middle East to Northeast Asia, the US global military transformation – under fire from many quarters – is transforming Japan itself into a reliable and unswerving “Britain of the Far East”.

    Britain is the United States’ closest ally in the Western Hemisphere, and the US wants Japan to become the Asian equivalent of the United Kingdom in the Eastern Hemisphere. The US is currently redeploying and transforming its military to expand its military operations in the so-called “arc of instability” stretching from Northeast Asia to the Middle East by securing and strengthening the forward deployment of US forces abroad.

    This new realignment will project US forces further, faster and with greater striking power when they reach their destination. Many analysts have pointed out Japan is becoming a linchpin, a key security outpost, in the United States’ defense posture in the Asia-Pacific region.

    https://www.globalpolicy.org/component/content/article/154/25727.html

    https://thediplomat.com/2011/01/japan-britain-of-the-far-east/

  381. Mitleser says:
    @German_reader

    Even in 1914 was a comparatively small country in the middle of Europe, totally dependent on exports to other states (most of them increasingly antagonistic) and therefore potentially very vulnerable to protectionism. Nothing like the huge domestic market of the US, not many natural resources either.

    Population of the USA in 1913 was 97,3 million people, the combined populations of the German Empire and Austria-Hungary were 119 million people.
    Austria was also among the Top 3 oil producers at that time.

    Germany did certainly have the potential to be a global economic superpower.

  382. Denis says:
    @AP

    It was and they were, but it still highlights the balance of power compared to Germany, which was capable of easily defeating any one of its neighbours.

  383. Denis says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    Only chance for Germany to become a global economic superpower in 20th century:

    1. Germanize tens of millions of Slavs: 200M*25%, or whatever the Generalplan Ost ratio was supposed to be = eventually 50M –> 130M Germans.
    2. Make sure NatSoc mores stick, maintaining TFR at 3 children per woman and maintaining 1960s US like pop growth rates indefinitely.
    3. 200M-250M Germans by 2000. That’s =~ the number of White Americans today, so would indeed qualify as global economic superpower.

    Being a superpower for a certain period of time does not necessitate being greater than Russia in every dimension. Consider China, which had a greater population than Russia and a larger economy as well. China was clearly not a great power at all by the late 19th/early 20th century.

    Similarly, for Germany to attain dominance, they would not have had to surpass their opponents in every metric.

  384. S says:
    @Denis

    Since America is currently dominant in Europe, Eastern Europe’s subordinate status translates into subordination to America, but if America had never entered the picture as a result of the wars, then it doesn’t take a huge leap to see those same eastern states being subordinate to Germany instead.

    Yes, but due to the ‘special relationship’ of the US and UK in place since about 1900, a relationship only just short of an outright political union, the United States was virtually certain to enter both world wars one way or the other once the UK got involved militarily in Europe.

    And whether Germany wanted that world war in either instance or not with the US/UK didn’t particularly matter, as the war with Germany, the would be center of power upon continental Europe, would of been forced upon them if need be, one way or the other. [This is exactly the same thing they are attempting to do to Russia now as they did to Germany then.]

    And how can a country or countrys force another to go to war?

    When they (ie the US/UK in 1901) have three times the wealth and economic resources of the combined French, Russian, and German Empire’s as WT Stead, a close associate of Cecil Rhodes of British Africa fame, outlined on pg 10, 11, and 12, of his 1901 book The Americanization of the World linked below, well, you can do a lot of things.

    Something like those figures probably held true through the start of WWII, and are now probably even still considerable no doubt in relation to other countries.

    The subtitles of the first chapter those economic figures appeared in tell their own story regarding the US/UK and it’s self declared world mission, ie ‘the decree of destiny’, ‘the supreme power’, and ‘world conquerors’.

    [The number 3 comment below by Grimoire regarding the ‘special relationship’ article linked to below at Majority Rights’ is of interest should a person have the time.]

    https://majorityrights.com/weblog/comments/a_special_relationship

    https://archive.org/details/americanizationo01stea/page/10

    • Replies: @Denis
  385. songbird says:

    I don’t think Germany really had to Germanize Slavs. If they had really had a good breeder program going, they could have exported their surplus population to their African colonies, or perhaps even to other parts of the world to gain influence. They didn’t need battleships, just a lot of babies.

  386. Denis says:
    @S

    Perhaps American intervention was inevitable, but I was predicating my arguments on Germany avoiding the wars.

  387. Mr. XYZ says:
    @AP

    Japan defeat was a bit of a fluke IIRC and Russia by 1914 was much improved from 1905.

    Probably still not strong enough to defeat Germany in a one-on-one fight, though.

  388. annamaria says:
    @Mr. Hack

    “Russia is full of Jews represented in all walks of life…”

    — There are even more Jews in Israel (6.5 mln) than in Russia (0.6 mln). But only Ukraine (0.2 mln Jews) holds a distinction of being ruled by Jews in collaboration with Banderites.

    “Ukraine’s Jews welcome election of Zelensky:” https://www.ft.com/content/dea333d8-6689-11e9-9adc-98bf1d35a056

    Ukraine will become the only country outside of Israel to have Jewish heads of state and government. “This is wonderful . . . I’m proud,” said Alevtina, a 25-year old outside Brodsky Synagogue in downtown Kiev…. Volodymyr Groysman, also Jewish, has served as the Prime Minister [of Ukraine] since 2016.

    Mazel Tov! Mr. Hack. You country has been liberated from the Russian language, Russian population, and Russian traditions. Enjoy the newly found freedom brought to you by Mrs. Nuland-Kagan & Mr. Brennan, and financed by the State Dept, Soros, Khodorkovsky, and other titans of commerce such as the pure Ukrainian heroes Kolomojsky and Pinchuk. And don’t forget the labors of Chalupas (banderites) and Dm. Alpeorovitch (zionist), both involved with the Atlantic Council (of mega-liars) and Integrity Initiative (of disinformation).
    https://www.globalresearch.ca/the-insiduous-role-of-the-atlantic-council-securing-the-21st-century-for-nato/18945
    https://www.mintpressnews.com/the-integrity-initiative-and-the-uks-scandalous-information-war/253014/

    That scandal involved the unmasking of “more than 400 American journalists who…in the past twenty-five years have secretly carried out assignments for the Central Intelligence Agency” …

    The exposing of the Integrity Initiative has just scratched the surface of what appears to be a much more sophisticated, insidious, and extremely online version of Operation Mockingbird.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  389. Mr. Hack says:
    @annamaria

    You still haven’t addressed how it is that there are so many Jews in Russia in high positions? You should learn from your wise leader Putin:

    Russian President Vladimir Putin praised Israeli responses to terrorism, and used Israel’s culture to illustrate steadfastness in the face of adversity during an event on October 28, 2016, hosted by the Valdai International Discussion Club. The Russian leader urged his listeners to “learn from Israel,” stating that Israelis “never let go” and “fight until the end… that is why [they] exist at all.”

    • Replies: @annamaria
  390. Alfred says:

    the Irish have an even more extreme and unique anti-record

    My mother was Irish Catholic. Born 1917. She had 5 sisters and one brother. Only two out of six stayed in Ireland. Most girls dispersed – Egypt, UK, USA and South Africa. There are around (I am not in touch with my cousins) 20 grandchildren worldwide of whom only 1/4 are in Ireland. I suspect that the Irish outside (when adjusted for mixing with non-Irish) is 10 times the number in Ireland.

    • Replies: @iffen
  391. Ron Chapman says: • Website

    G’day Pilgrims,
    Arguably humanity on this planet is on the cusp of a new era in which human labour will cease to be essential to maintain society in material abundance because AI, robots and technology will replace the need for much human physical and mental work.

    Once AI and robotics dominate industrial, construction, transport, agricultural, health, legal, accounting and other industries the labour force required for servicing, maintenance and creation of improved robotic and technological designs etc will NOT require more than a fraction of the human manpower currently required to perform the work that will be done by AI and robotics in the future.

    Accordingly, what we need to do is start focussing upon what these developments really mean for life as we know it. The first and glaringly obvious question arising from the coming technological dominance of the production and servicing of human needs IS: ‘who will control the output of AI and robotics and who will reap the benefits from that output’? Currently our world is a growing unemployment and underemployment, low wage, high personal income taxation oriented welfare state dystopia because a handfull of incredibly rich individuals control the bulk of transnational corporations AND those individuals pay very little tax while accumulating and KEEPING the bulk of the benefits of that corporate production and associated servicing activities. See eg:
    How Billionaires Become Billionaires – Link http://abundanthope.net/pages/Political_Information_43/How-Billionaires-Become-Billionaires.shtml
    And:
    How Interlinked Corporations Rule The World. – Link http://abundanthope.net/pages/Political_Information_43/How-Interlinked-Corporations-Rule-The-World.shtml
    he corporate stranglehold on food and agriculture. – Link http://abundanthope.net/pages/Health_and_Nutrition_37/The-corporate-stranglehold-on-food-and-agriculture.shtml
    And:
    Rise of the Transnational Corporations – http://abundanthope.net/pages/Political_Information_43/Rise-of-the-Transnational-Corporations.shtml

    And:
    The Permanent Unemployment & Underemployment Economy – http://abundanthope.net/pages/Political_Information_43/The-Permanent-Unemployment – Underemployment-Economy.shtml

    BLIND FREDDY can see that this situation is NOT sustainable. The question is: ‘What, if anything, is the bulk of humanity going to do about it’?

    Here’s a hint Pilgrims. IF the global population allows the current rapacious and totally dysfunctional corporatist domination and control of our world (typified by Amazon and Google et al) and fails to develop the mental muscle and guts to refuse to allow Fascists (ie banksters, corporatists and their puppet politicians and so-called Welfare governments) to exploit, impoverish and immiserate the bulk of the global population, human society on this planet will disappear up its own fundamental orifice. The choice is yours. Pretending that ALL that is required is retraining of workers or provision of some form of universal basic income to overcome the problem is ridiculous. See eg:
    Universal Basic Income Is Easier Than It Looks – http://abundanthope.net/pages/Political_Information_43/Universal-Basic-Income-Is-Easier-Than-It-Looks.shtml
    And:
    Endless Government Free Money – http://abundanthope.net/pages/Political_Information_43/Endless-Government-Free-Money.shtml
    And:
    Can We Do Without Money ? – http://abundanthope.net/pages/Political_Information_43/Can-We-Do-Without-Money.shtml

    Our world is currently drowning in debt owed to anonymous banksters who also own or control the corporation that own (and will own future iterations of) the AI and technology we will increasingly depend on. Moreover, those Talmudic owners have indicated that they will only need some 500 million human ‘cattle’ for their amusement etc, the rest being surplus to requirements once they institute their New World Order, One World Government. Sooo, it is unlikely that postulating ANY greater future population for this planet will come to fruition unless the global population CHANGES its attitude to usurious banking, AND corporate personhood; AND limited liability companies; AND ownership and control of the corporations that purport to own the AI and technology needed to sustain everyone. See eg:
    Citizens United v. FEC: Corporate Personhood Must be Eliminated if Humanity is to Survive. – http://abundanthope.net/pages/Ron_71/Citizens-United-v-FEC-Corporate-Personhood-Must-GO-if-Humanity-is-to-Survive.shtml
    And:
    The USA Isn’t a Country, It’s a Corporation! – http://abundanthope.net/pages/True_US_History_108/The-USA-Isn-t-a-Country-It-s-a-Corporation.shtml
    And:
    The Matrix, the Strawman and WHO You Are – http://abundanthope.net/pages/Ron_71/The_Matrix_the_Strawman_and_WHO_You_Are_3030.shtml

    Proper use of AI and robotics etc should enable ALL of humanity to begin transitioning into a new age free of the drudgery of endless physical work that has hitherto been needed to survive. That result will mean that humans will become free to think and develop their innate creativity instead of scrabbling for a living as free range serfs (wage slaves) in the Fascist (Talmudic) capitalist milieu we currently inhabit. However, that prosperous and abundant future for all can only be achieved if we shuck off the mind controlled illusion that a tiny cabal of banksters and corporatists are entitled to OWN and control the corporations and hence the technologies and profits of the machines that create abundance for all. Today it is estimated that some 700 individuals own and/or control the mega trans-national corporations that control global production of goods and services. Those individuals already HAVE most of this worlds’ wealth and if they are allowed to continue to control the production and KEEP the totally inadequately taxed profits of most global mega corporations, human life on this planet is doomed.

    The solution is obvious. Nations and communities must take back ownership OR control of the corporations that use AI and robotics etc to produce essential societal needs in the future in order to redistribute the resultant productivity and abundance. IF nations and communities ensure that the profits of ALL corporations are properly taxed so that NO ONE is able to appropriate, hoard and use for private purposes the personally unearned increments accruing from the use of AI, robotics and technologies generally, humanity will enter a golden age. But if not, not.

    Peace and Blessings,
    Ron

    • Replies: @Counterinsurgency
  392. Alfred says:

    My guesstimate is that the planet can support ~100 billion people

    The writer has no idea of the role played by fossil fuels in our demographics.

    The decline of the population of Ukraine when compared to Russia is not unrelated to their oil/gas/coal consumption per capita. To give you an idea of how dire the situation is, the oil consumption per capita in Australia is 6 times higher than Ukraine.

    The massive growth in the population of Africa is entirely a product of better healthcare brought about by fossil fuels. When their bugs have adapted to the new medications, their population will plummet. All it takes is a small genetic change in any number of viruses – HIV, Ebola etc.

    The Chinese has so far lost almost half of their herds of pigs due to African Swine Fever. It has even appeared in Russia, the Netherlands and Australia. I am sure the very best scientists in this field are desperately seeking a vaccine or a cure. How difficult is it to imagine a similar virus that can be transmitted to humans? We are quite similar to pigs in more than one way. 🙂

    African swine fever is a fatal pig disease that was first reported in China in August 2018 and has since spread throughout the country, killing millions of pigs and reducing the size of the herd by more than 40 per cent

    China reports new African swine fever outbreak in Chongqing: ministry

    Renewable Energy is just another version of the Perpetual Motion fallacy.

    How Renewable Energy Models Can Produce Misleading Indications

  393. Alfred says:
    @RadicalCenter

    it is wrong to say that STDs are predominantly a homosexual problem.

    The reservoir of HIV and Syphilis is undoubtedly in the homosexual population. If it were not for bisexual men, there would be almost no infected women. Africa is another matter.

    Here is the historic data for syphilis in Melbourne, Australia. Although they do not say it, it should be obvious that the great discrepancy between the numbers for men and women is because almost all the men are homosexual or bisexual. Currenly, men are twenty times more likely to catch syphilis.

    • Replies: @Counterinsurgency
  394. Alfred says:
    @AP

    anti-Ukrainian ethnic Russians

    This sounds a bit like a French Canadian saying “anti-Canadian ethnic British”

    The ones who are bombing, raping and ethnic-cleansing Donbass are the ones on the offensive. Get your facts straight. The Azov battalion and similar neo-Nazi outfits are from the west of Ukraine. The government of Ukraine is 90+% ethnic-Jewish.

    A fake country that decides that everyone should speak one minority language is as silly as the French of Quebec insisting that all Canadians use French. “Ukrainians” mostly speak Russian in their unrepresentative parliament.

    The Russian-speakers were the ones who industrialized Ukraine. The peasants of the west had nothing to do with it. Under the Poles, they were not allowed to live in cities like Lvov and Chernivtsi.

    Magdeburg Rights

    The fanatics even bombed the Lugansk town hall.

    Lugansk attacked by Ukrainian Air Force

    Many of those have left for Russia – and taken their knowledge and intelligence with them. Ukraine used to produce aircraft and motor cars. Now, it can just about produce tractors – in the Russian-speaking part of Ukraine.

    • Replies: @AP
    , @Philip Owen
  395. annamaria says:
    @Mr. Hack

    Mr/Ms “AP” has proclaimed that it was good to lose all these Russians by Ukraine. My posts were about the new development in Ukraine — the union of banderites and zionists. Does such a union exist or no? You strenuously want to deflect the discussion to the well-known fact of Jews’s presence in Russia. There is nothing new about it. What is new, is the unique situation in Ukraine where both President and Prime Minister are Jewish (only the Jewish State boasts such an achievement).

    The demographic changes in Ukraine — accompanied by open discrimination against the Russian language, Russian traditions, and Russian people — has been a result of the regime change in Kiev conducted by ziocons (see Nuland-Kagan and the whole Kagans’ clan) in cahoot with the CIA (see Brennan’s activities in Kiev just before the beginning of military actions against the civilian population of eastern Ukraine in 2014).

    Ukraine has become a playground for Kolomojsky and Pinchuk and self-proclaimed neo-Nazi (armed by the Jewish State, by the way). The “developments” have been accompanied by disinformation spread by the thoroughly zionized Atlantic Council (see Dm. Alperovitch and Leon Aron) and by infamous Integrity Initiative, the nest for Chalupas, Anne Applebaum and such.

    Why don’t you develop a spine to face the bitter truth about the transformation of Ukraine into a toy for ziocons who have been using the banderites as a willful tool?

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  396. @Ron Chapman

    Moldy Oldie. Heard that one back in the 1960s. “We can do anything we set our minds to — look at the US WW II effort. Therefore the only thing that matters is what we decide to do. If we all decide to have plenty, we will all have plenty. So, to get unanimity you will all want what I tell you to want. First, . . .”

    Counterinsurgency

  397. @Alfred

    But wait, there’s more.

    Try going to the Red Cross and donating blood. Be careful to actually read the qualification form they give you. The contamination of the US blood supply depicted on that form amounts to a major health hazard.

    HIV, and many other conditions, are everybody’s problem, and _if capital were being productively invested_ it would be addressed by public health measures a bit more aggressive than calling people bigots.

    Counterinsurgency

  398. Mr. Hack says:
    @annamaria

    Why don’t you develop a spine to face the bitter truth about the transformation of Ukraine into a toy for ziocons who have been using the banderites as a willful tool?

    The real truth is that for once, possibly with the assistance of Jewish influence, Ukrainians are allowed to develop a Ukrainian Ukraine, not a Russified one. I’ve even read somewhere that most Ukrainian students within elementary and secondary schools prefer English or German to Russian as a second language. This is no doubt the legacy of a forced imperial language on a population that no longer belongs to that empire – and doesn’t look poised to return to it ever again. You will no doubt try and explain this away as some sort of a “Zionist-Nazi” conspiracy, but the real truth is that it was the fault of an overbearing Russian imperialist project that fell away from within because of its own outdated methods and sensibilities. Ukrainians, by and large, are happy with a Ukrainian Ukraine, and don’t want to return to a Russian Ukraine.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  399. Mr. Hack says:
    @Mr. Hack

    So, why is it that Putin gets a green light from you when he praises Jews and their accomplishments, but when Ukrainians find advantageous relationships with Jews in Ukraine, you come up with all of this crazy “Zionist-Nazi” BS that noone believes is true? Why can’t Ukrainians learn from the Jews, as Putin is advocating everybody else should do:

    Russian President Vladimir Putin praised Israeli responses to terrorism, and used Israel’s culture to illustrate steadfastness in the face of adversity during an event on October 28, 2016, hosted by the Valdai International Discussion Club. The Russian leader urged his listeners to “learn from Israel,” stating that Israelis “never let go” and “fight until the end… that is why [they] exist at all.”

    • Replies: @annamaria
  400. Oracle says:
    @prime noticer

    European population has been intentionally collapsed through destruction of family, feminism, abortion, affirmative action, promotion of divorce, punitive legal action against husbands, fathers. All coming from the same group.

  401. AP says:
    @Alfred

    The Azov battalion and similar neo-Nazi outfits are from the west of Ukraine

    Thanks for showing your cluelessness, probably as a result of depending on pro-Russian media.

    Azov battalion is from the eastern fringe of Ukraine, Kharkiv. This is clear and obvious.

    Here is Kharkiv on a map:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azov_Battalion

    More than half of the regiment’s members speak Russian and come from eastern Ukraine,[14] including cities of Donetsk and Luhansk.[15] The regiment’s first commander was far-right nationalist Andriy Biletsky, who led the neo-Nazi Social-National Assembly and Patriot of Ukraine.

    The Azov Battalion has its roots in a group of Ultras of FC Metalist Kharkiv named “Sect 82” (1982 is the year of the founding of the group).[22] “Sect 82” was (at least until September 2013) allied with FC Spartak Moscow Ultras.[22] Late February 2014, during the 2014 Ukrainian crisis when a separatist movement was active in Kharkiv, “Sect 82” occupied the Kharkiv Oblast regional administration building in Kharkiv and served as a local “self-defense”-force.[22] Soon, on the basis of “Sect 82” there was formed a volunteer militia called “Eastern Corps”.[22]

    Who is Andriy Biletsky?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andriy_Biletsky_(politician)

    Born in Kharkiv.

    ::::::::::::::::

    I’m not gonna chase the other nonsense now, this glaring example was sufficient. Pro-Russians did a great job fooling right-wing Western boomers.

    • Replies: @Alfred
    , @Philip Owen
  402. iffen says:
    @Alfred

    I suspect that the Irish outside (when adjusted for mixing with non-Irish) is 10 times the number in Ireland.

    At some point they are no longer Irish.

  403. Alfred says:
    @AP

    More than half of the regiment’s members speak Russian

    Everyone in Kharkov and the Ukrainian fake parliament speaks Russian. The only people who don’t speak Russian are in the west of Ukraine. Even in the west of Ukraine all the educated people speak Russian. Ukrainian is originally the language of the peasants of Galicia.

    Your statement merely proves that at least half the members of the Azov ethnic-cleansing battalion comes from the far west and that they are uneducated.

    In every society there are psychopaths who will murder, plunder, torture and rape when paid to do so and when they are in no fear of retribution. The Azov battalion is such a collection of people.

    They come in behind the advances of the Ukrainian Army to “punish” any civilians they come across. They are a Punishment Battalion.

    The UN claims that 13,000 people have died in this conflict. The vast majority of them were civilians. The only force that attacks Russian-speaking civilians is the Azov battalion and it ilk. Claiming that those who want to live on their own land and not under the Americano-Zionist leadership of Kiev kill their own people falls into the same category as claiming that “Assad gasses Syria’s civilians”

    The important thing is that the USA is slowly stopping the money going to Kiev. That will inevitably result into the breakup of this fake country into its constituent parts.

    • Replies: @AP
  404. johnyaya says:

    Re: the post-2015 crash in developed country fertility:

    -Internet porn: ubiquitous, high quality, highly addictive; removes many males and some females from dating pool
    -Internet and smart phone dating/social media: creates the illusion of infinite choice, increasing the attractiveness of single status and extending the time spent in that status; while also making committed relationships exponentially more difficult
    -Developed country male/foreign female relationships much more common: has effect of lowering fertility, because even if successful, relationships take more time and money to establish and consummate. In addition, there is a significant probability of offspring being born abroad, so they do not appear in developed-country fertility statistics.

  405. AP says:
    @Alfred

    Guy who exposed his complete ignorance of basic facts brazenly pushes more nonsense. Is it a boomer thing? After posting the sheer idiocy about Azov being western Ukrainian one would think you would be more careful.

    Most of the anti-Russian militiamen in eastern Ukraine are eastern Ukrainians, not western Ukrainians. Just as most of the IRA in northern Ireland are not from Southern Ireland.

    About half of Ukraine speaks Ukrainian. Not only the far west. There are plenty of Ukrainian-speaking villages around Kiev. Even some in Kharkiv oblast.

    Next you’ll reply with more ignorant talking points the pro-Russians fed you, boomer.

  406. Alfred says:
    @S

    Genghis Khan ie if someone were to ever locate his still missing corpse, extract DNA from it, clone him, and then raise him in the modern art of warfare.

    But the Russians have already accomplished that. Here is Sergey Shoygu their Minister of Defence

    • Agree: Blinky Bill
  407. annamaria says:
    @Mr. Hack

    1. Because Ukraine was made into the NATO outpost to pumper MIC and to keep the world on edge of a devastating war.
    2. Because the zionized Ukrainian government has been waging a civil war in eastern Ukraine against the civilian population (while your former boss continued running his chocolate business in Russia — true or not?)
    3. Because Ukraine has become the poorest country in Europe.
    4. Because banderites (in cahoot with ziocons) have been involved in undermining the US Consitution.
    5. Because your Ukrainian leaders of Jewish Community of Ukraine have been involved in murderous activities affecting people worldwide (see MH 17 story, the financing of Azov Battalion, the FBI investigation of Kolomojsky fraud re Ukrainian banks, and such).
    6. Because ziocons have elevated banderites (self-proclaimed neo-nazi) to a level of quasi-ruling party in Ukraine.
    7. Because while you are right about the imperial habits of the USSR, you prefer to ignore the habits of Jewish tax collectors in Poland, the role of Jewish Bolsheviks in Russia, and the “habits” of Jewish Lobby in the US & UK. And don’t forget the history of banderites’ crimes in Poland and Ukraine.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  408. @Alfred

    Scottish (Lugansk) and Welsh (Hughesovka/Donetsk) engineers and capital industrialised the Donbass. Russian speakers were imported as labourers because the local population was sparse. The Wild Lands – not much surface water.

  409. @AP

    As I remember it, it was an exaggeration to say there was a seperatist group in Kharkiv. The demonstrators were bused in from Voronezh, Rostov and Moscow (the flag carrier who climbed the building) as I recall. Officers’ Club mostly.

  410. Mr. Hack says:
    @annamaria

    So, if this is all true, why do you tolerate Vladimir Putin’s laudatory language towards Jews in general, and are willing to sit silently as he has so many of them conspiculously in his midst? These are the exact same Jews that are in Ukraine.

    • Replies: @annamaria
  411. Ron Chapman says: • Website

    @ Mr Hack and @ AP

    Ex-President Petro Poroshenko is a Jewish oligarch and arguably his pretending to identify with Bandera was a subterfuge to conceal the truth that the Kiev putsch in 2014 was a Jews’ COUP supported by US money and other assistance, similar to the Bolshevik COUP deliberately mislabelled as the Russian Revolution in 1917.

    Some of the Jews who originally gained power in the Kiev putsch were:

    President-Poroshenko (Vlatsman) – Jew
    President Turchinov (Kogan) – Jew
    Prime Minister – Yatsenyuk (Buckeye) – Jew
    Minister of Finance – Alexander Shlapak – Jew
    Secretary of national security and Defence – Andrew Parubiy- Jew
    Vice Prime Minister – Vladimir Groisman – a Jew
    Interior Minister Arsen Avakov – Armenian Jew
    Minister of Culture – Sergei Nischuk – Jew
    Mason – Director of the National Bank – Stepan Kubiv – Jew
    Head of the Administration of President – Sergey Pashinskiy- Jew

    The main presidential candidates from the opposition were:
    Yulia Tymoshenko (Celia Kapitelman) – Jewish
    Vitali Klitschko (Etinzon) – a Jew by his father
    Oleg Tyagnibok (Frotman) – a Jew mom
    Dmitry (Avdimou) Yarosh – Jew Hasid

    Some of the falsely alleged nazi-regime in Kiev included:

    President – Poroshenko (Valtsman) – Jew. – and. o. President Turchinov (Kogan) – Jew. – Prime Minister – Yatsenyuk (Buckeye) – Jew. – The Minister of Finance – Alexander Shlapak- Jew. – Secretary of national security and Defence – Andrew Parubiy- Jew – Vice Prime Minister – Vladimir Groisman – a Jew. – Interior Minister Arsen Avakov – Armenian Jew – Minister of Culture – Sergei Nischuk – Jew, Mason – Director of the National Bank – Stepan Kubiv – Jew. – Head of the Administration of President – Sergey Pashinskiy- Jew. The main presidential candidates from the opposition: – Julia Tymoshenko (Celia Kapitelman) – Jewish. – Vitali Klitschko (Etinzon) – a Jew by his father. – Oleg Tyagnibok (Frotman) a Jew mom. – Dmitry (Avdimou) Yarosh-Jew Hasid. The oligarchs in Ukraine – all Jews: I. Kolomoisky, E. Hurwitz, H. Bogolyubov, Poroshenko, D. Firtash, S. Liovochkin, V. Haiduk, V.Nemirovsky, K. Zhevago, V. Pinchuk, E. Prutnik, Akhmetov, A. Martynov, B. Kostelman, E.Sigal, B. Kolesnikov, A. Feldman, F. Shpyg, N. Shufrych, Rodnyanskii A., I. Butler, A. Abdinov, V. Ermolaev, M. Kiperman, E. Zviagilskiy, F. Zhebrovskaya, S. Ronis, H. Korban, G. Surkis, I. Surkis, V. Shamotiy, A. Leszczynski, J. Rodin, M. Becker. All media – in the hands of Jews P. Poroshenko, I. Kolomoisky, D. Firtash, V. Pinchuk, Akhmetov. nezalezhnoy Presidents: – Kravchuk (Bloom) – a Jew. – Kuchma (Kuchman) – Jew.

    Jew controlled Western governments and MSM pretend to criticise the Bandera so-called Nazi elements in the Ukraine (while the Talmudists use them to slaughter other gentile Ukrainians) in order to distract from the truth that Khazarian Talmudists were attempting to swallow up most of the Ukraine and were busy plundering it. See eg the current UkraineGate impeachment proceedings and lies in the US Congress.

    As regards the Khazarian neo-Pharisees’ desire to “OWN” the Ukraine and destroy its Russian Orthodox religion, customs and traditions see eg: Poroshenko Labels Russian Orthodox Church a Security Threat – http://abundanthope.net/pages/Political_Information_43/Poroshenko-Labels-Russian-Orthodox-Church-a-Security-Threat.shtml
    And:
    Dnepropetrovsk, Ukraine: The future Jewish power center of the world? – http://abundanthope.net/pages/Political_Information_43/Dnepropetrovsk-Ukraine-The-future-Jewish-power-center-of-the-world.shtml

    Dnepropetrovsk could be renamed – Jerusalem-on-the-Dnieper – http://abundanthope.net/pages/Political_Information_43/Dnepropetrovsk-could-be-renamed—Jerusalem-on-the-Dnieper.shtml

    Chabad seeks to re-build Khazaria in Ukraine – http://abundanthope.net/pages/Political_Information_43/Chabad-seeks-to-re-build-Khazaria-in-Ukraine.shtml

    Ukraine: New Jewish ˜Promised Land. See: http://abundanthope.net/pages/Political_Information_43/Ukraine-New-Jewish-Promised-Land.shtml

    UKRAINE: ZIONIST AMERICA’S NEW JEWISH COLONY by Lasha Darkmoon. See: http://abundanthope.net/pages/Political_Information_43/UKRAINE-ZIONIST-AMERICA-S-NEW-JEWISH-COLONY-by-Lasha-Darkmoon.shtml

    Surprise, surprise In Ukraine protests, young Jews are marching with ultranationalists. See: http://abundanthope.net/pages/Political_Information_43/Surprise-surprise-In-Ukraine-protests-young-Jews-are-marching-with-ultranationalists.shtml

    Divide and conquer has always been a core Talmudic device along with the Hegelian dialectic. This discussion evidences that.

    • Replies: @AP
  412. annamaria says:
    @Mr. Hack

    You mean, how we dare to notice that Ukraine has become a plaything for ziocons and banderites? You are like Fran Taubman on this forum, indignant that people notice the dissonance between the holobiz’s memes and the policies of the Jewish State.

    You made your entry into this discussion in response to my reaction to Mr/Ms “AP” self-congratulatory post that Ukraine is better without Russians.

    The policies of the zionized Ukraine include banning the Russian language and traditions, while at the same time supporting the blossoming of Jewish culture, along with support for banderites. Mazel Tov! Mr. Hack.

    The union of ziocons and banderites has produced the impoverishment of Ukrainians, the civil war in eastern Ukraine, the festering wound on the border with Russia, and the involvement of ziocon/banderite faction in the anti-Constitutional process in the US. What is not clear for you?

    Ukraine has a Jewish President and Jewish Prime-Minister and a government laced with self-proclaimed neo-Nazi. Do you see anything unusual in that combination, Mr. Hack?
    https://financialobserver.eu/cse-and-cis/a-difficult-year-ahead-for-ukraine/

    Over the next three years, Ukraine will have to pay back $ USD 20bn to its creditors — the equivalent of the country’s entire foreign exchange reserves.

    How the country is going to pay back? Any ideas, Mr. Hack?

    • Replies: @AP
    , @Mr. Hack
  413. AP says:
    @Ron Chapman

    Ex-President Petro Poroshenko is a Jewish oligarch

    LOL, you are wrong right off the bat. He is 100% Ukrainian and is a deacon of the Orthodox Church.

    Are you another gullible boomer who believes all the stuff the Russians fed you?

    • Agree: Mr. XYZ
  414. AP says:
    @annamaria

    banning the Russian language and traditions

    Switching the school language isn’t “banning.” Do you think Spanish is banned in the USA?

    There are plenty of Russian-language websites from Ukraine. Is that banning?

    The union of ziocons and banderites has produced the impoverishment of Ukrainians

    Ukraine was impoverished before. It is still poor, but improving; it’s now the best it has been since the crash of 2009:

    https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.KD?locations=UA

    Ukraine has a Jewish President and Jewish Prime-Minister

    Ukraine has a Jewish president now, and a Ukrainian Prime Minister now.

    Russia has had 3-4 Jewish Prime Ministers. Russia’s current president has a Jewish business partner whose son married the president’s daughter. A pro-Russian attacking Ukraine for its government’s Jewish ties is really funny.

    • Replies: @annamaria
    , @Mr. XYZ
    , @Gerad. 12
  415. Mr. Hack says:
    @annamaria

    Do you see anything unusual in that combination, Mr. Hack?

    Not one iota more unusual than Russian leaders interacting and hobnobbing with Jews every chance that they get:

    What’s wrong with Jews, anyway? Putin seems enamored with them.

  416. annamaria says:
    @AP

    It is amazing how strenuously you have been avoiding the main point: Ukraine has a Jewish President and Jewish Prime-Minister and a government laced with self-proclaimed neo-Nazi. The banderites fancy that the country belongs to them.

    Did you mean these improvements?
    “IMF ranks Ukraine as Europe’s poorest country” (and this is 5 years after the Maidan regime change led by Nuland-Kagan, and 25 years after the dissolution of the USSR). http://euromaidanpress.com/2018/04/26/why-do-ukrainians-remain-poor-six-hypotheses-2/
    “Monsanto’s Land Grab in Ukraine.”
    “Monsanto Brings Its Carcinogenic Production to Ukraine.

    There is a Q for you:
    “Over the next three years, Ukraine will have to pay back $ USD 20bn to its creditors — the equivalent of the country’s entire foreign exchange reserves.” — How the debt will be paid back and by whom?

    Also, if Ukrainian patriots hate everything Russian so much, why the deafening noise about Nord Stream 2? Perhaps you should better look after your own mega-profiteers instead of complaining about foreign influence.

    • Replies: @AP
  417. AP says:
    @annamaria

    Ukraine has a Jewish President and Jewish Prime-Minister

    Ukraine’s prime minister is not Jewish. Put the crack away.

    You should like him, he graduated from the infamous MAUP:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interregional_Academy_of_Personnel_Management#Allegations_of_antisemitism

    Did you mean these improvements?
    “IMF ranks Ukraine as Europe’s poorest country”

    It was poorest before Maidan.

    and this is 5 years after the Maidan regime change

    You can’t count. Overthrow was in 2014. Article was from 2018, data is cited was from 2017. Ukraine only started improving in 2016.

    “Over the next three years, Ukraine will have to pay back $ USD 20bn to its creditors — the equivalent of the country’s entire foreign exchange reserves.” — How the debt will be paid back and by whom?

    Ukraine has already made progress in paying off its debt and its debt to GDP ratio is lower now than it has been for years:

    • Replies: @Mr. XYZ
    , @annamaria
    , @annamaria
  418. Mr. XYZ says:
    @AP

    Off-topic, but I have a question for you and Mr. Hack: Do you know if the Jews in Russia and Ukraine are pushing in favor of mass non-Slavic immigration to these two countries just like a sizable number of Jews are supporters of increased multiculturalism in the West?

    • Replies: @AP
  419. Mr. XYZ says:
    @AP

    Ukraine has already made progress in paying off its debt and its debt to GDP ratio is lower now than it has been for years:

    Did the Donbass War cause the 2014 spike here?

    • Replies: @AP
  420. Ron Chapman says: • Website

    @AP

    Thanks for your thoughts,

    Neo-Pharisees are Talmudists. They didn’t start calling themselves Jews until the late 18th century.
    We have it on good authority that “by their fruits you shall know them”.*
    Their fruits are the fruits of Talmudism which is a demonic, ethno-centric political ideology masquerading as a religion.

    * Incidently Esu Immanuel (aka Jesus the Christ) was NOT a Pharisee, an Israelite or a Judahite, nor was he a Jew because the neo-Pharisees didn’t start calling themselves Jews until the latter part of the 18th Century. See eg: ESU IMMANUEL, THE CHRIST, WAS NOT A JEW – http://abundanthope.net/pages/Phoenix_Journals_61/ESU_IMMANUEL_THE_CHRIST_WAS_NOT_A_JEW_4237.shtml
    And:
    CREATOR GOD ATON/HATONN: THE TORAH vs. THE TALMUD – http://abundanthope.net/pages/Political_Information_43/CREATOR-GOD-ATON-HATONN-THE-TORAH-vs-THE-TALMUD.shtml

    Most Jews are atheists and those who aren’t profess allegiance to a jealous, ethno-centric, genocidal entity that is no g-d at all.

    Jews have NOT contributed to Christian values. Those values emanate from the teachings of Jesus the Christ. Talmudism (aka Judaism) is an ethno-centric, collectivist political ideology that is antithetical to Jesus’ teaching that we must learn to love our neighbour (everyone and everything) AS ourselves FOR the love God (all and everything).

    Moreover, Jewishness has no valid genetic basis. Being a Jew is a CHOICE, just like being a Christian or a Buddhist or an agnostic et al. Moreover, the CHOICE to be a Jew implies acceptance of the adversarial, ethno-centric, genocidal, anti-human dictates of BOTH the Torah and the Talmud. Thinking that Torah adherents are distinct from Talmudists is false. The Torah and the Talmud both dictate that their adherents (aka Jews) are, and must remain, distinct from the rest of humanity on this planet. That ideological doctrine separates all who profess Judaism from joining with the rest of the human race. That collectivist, apartheid doctrine has nothing to do with genetics. IF Jews didn’t feel that being “Jewish” was personally advantageous they wouldn’t profess their allegiance to that ideology with all the perceived benefits of ‘tribal’ membership. Nor would people not born to Jewish mothers seek to “convert” to Judaism.

    The fact that neo-Pharisees accept Jewish“converts” emphasises that genetics are irrelevant to being a Jew. See eg: What Every Prospective Convert to Judaism Deserves To Know – http://abundanthope.net/pages/Political_Information_43/What-Every-Prospective-Convert-to-Judaism-Deserves-To-Know.shtml
    And:
    Israeli Ministry Sets Sights on Millions of ‘Potential Jews’ to Improve Country’s Image and Fight BDS – http://abundanthope.net/pages/Political_Information_43/Israeli-Ministry-Sets-Sights-on-Millions-of-Potential-Jews-to-Improve-Country-s-Image-and-Fight-BDS.shtml
    And:
    Judaism-for-Non-Jews-The-Messianic-Zionist-religion-that-wants-to-recruit-7-billion-members-by-TUT-editor- http://abundanthope.net/pages/Political_Information_43/Judaism-for-Non-Jews-The-Messianic-Zionist-religion-that-wants-to-recruit-7-billion-members-by-TUT-editor.shtml
    And:
    Zionism, Crypto-Judaism, and the Biblical Hoax – http://abundanthope.net/pages/Political_Information_43/Zionism-Crypto-Judaism-and-the-Biblical-Hoax.shtml And: The Bible: Recipe for Genocide or Junk Sculpture ? – http://abundanthope.net/pages/Political_Information_43/The-Bible-Recipe-for-Genocide-or-Junk-Sculpture.shtml

    In effect neo-Pharisees are a secret society hiding in plain sight within the so-called Jewish community. Most Jews are not religious and many are not Talmudists, just as many Masons are ignorant and innocent of the covert attitudes and activities of high degree Masons. Arguably though, anyone who claims to be a Jew and who is an active sayanim or otherwise exhibits sociopathic or psychopathic traits IS a Talmudist. That means that a majority of plutocratic oligarchs like Poroshenko ARE neo-Pharisees ie “Jews” regardless of their nationality or the persona they superficially expose to public gaze.

    Poroshenko’s being a deacon of the Orthodox Church is belied by his action in becoming an illegitimate President of Ukraine through a covert Jewish putsch and his subsequent enabling of the slaughter of Ukrainians by other Ukrainians. Among other things Poroshenko’s faux Christianity is also belied by his attempted destruction of the Orthodox Church in Ukraine. “By their fruits you shall know them.”

    Poroshenko’s anti-Christian efforts in Ukraine pale into insignificance compared to what his fellow Jews did to Christians last century in Russia and the Vatican. According to Alexandr Solzhenitsyn,
    neo-Pharisees in their Bolshevik guise killed some 66 million Russians in their attempt to eliminate Christians and Christianity in Imperial Russia. And apart from assassinating Popes John Paul and John Paul II, (See eg: Dr. Peter David Beter – Dr. Peter David Beter – Audio Letter No. 37.- http://www.peterdavidbeter.com/docs/all/dbal37.html
    Audio Letter No. 65. – http://www.peterdavidbeter.com/docs/all/dbal65.html And:
    Dr. Peter David Beter – Audio Letter No. 42. – http://www.peterdavidbeter.com/docs/all/dbal42.html)
    neo-Pharisees in the Vatican have totally suborned the Catholic Church as Pope Francis’ is actively demonstrating. See eg: Pope Francis Calls for End of Sovereignty and Establishment of Global Government – http://abundanthope.net/pages/Political_Information_43/Pope-Francis-Calls-for-End-of-Sovereignty-and-Establishment-of-Global-Government.shtml
    And:
    Converts Who Changed the Church Jewish-Born Clerics Helped Push Vatican II Reforms – http://abundanthope.net/pages/Political_Information_43/Converts-Who-Changed-the-Church-Jewish-Born-Clerics-Helped-Push-Vatican-II-Reforms.shtml

    The Pharisees of the Vatican – http://abundanthope.net/pages/Political_Information_43/The-Pharisees-of-the-Vatican.shtml

    The “Jews” Behind the Second Vatican Council – http://abundanthope.net/pages/Political_Information_43/The-Jews-Behind-the-Second-Vatican-Council.shtml

    The Evolution of the Relationship Between Catholics and Jews How Vatican II Sparked an Ongoing Revolution of Faith – http://abundanthope.net/pages/Political_Information_43/The-Evolution-of-the-Relationship-Between-Catholics-and-Jews-How-Vatican-II-Sparked-an-Ongoing-Revolution-of-Faith.shtml

    Vatican II = New Religion? See: http://abundanthope.net/pages/Political_Information_43/Vatican-II-New-Religion.shtml

    Clearly those who profess NOT to be Jews but actively or tacitly promulgate Talmudic ideas and attitudes such as cultural Marxism, or otherwise exhibit Talmudic behaviour, are neo-Pharisees, aka Jews. In fact “the woods are full of them” as the Rothschilds, Rockefellers and George Soros and their ilk demonstrate every day.

    The fact that Jews dominate global finance and governance and have married into Putin and Trump families merely evidences a key method by which neo-Pharisees seek to suborn and control gentile nations.

    No other human collective has a record anywhere near that of the Pharisees and neo-Pharisees. See eg: Why Has This Crazy Tribe been Kicked Out of Every Country on Earth? – http://abundanthope.net/pages/Political_Information_43/Why-Has-This-Crazy-Tribe-been-Kicked-Out-of-Every-Country-on-Earth.shtml

    For background see also: Judaism and Christianity – Two Thousand Years of Lies – 60 Years of State Terrorism – http://abundanthope.net/pages/Political_Information_43/Judaism-and-Christianity—Two-Thousand-Years-of-Lies—60-Years-of-State-Terrorism.shtml
    Peace and Blessings,
    Ron
    *************

    • Replies: @Counterinsurgency
  421. AP says:
    @Mr. XYZ

    I seriously doubt it. Most Jews from Russia and Ukraine are fairly right-wing, both there and when they go to the USA and Israel.

    • Replies: @Mr. XYZ
  422. AP says:
    @Mr. XYZ

    Yes, that and the loss of money-producing regions.

  423. @Ron Chapman

    neo-Pharisees

    Perfect description of the New Englanders (Woodward’s “Yankeedom”). I’ll use it from now on. Captures the combination of high claimed morality and utterly evil misuse of law and procedure.

    Also a perfect description of the Jewish establishment, which, I’m told, really does descend from the original Pharisees.

    Counterinsurgency

  424. annamaria says:

    Eliot Higgins, Atlantic Council, Integrity Initiative, Guardian and similar assets of security forces in the US/UK mourn the strange death of a White Helmets community organizer James Le Mesurier:
    https://consortiumnews.com/2019/11/13/narrative-managers-in-overdrive-after-death-of-white-helmets-founder/

    Le Mesurier has a history with British military intelligence and was fundamentally involved with an extremely shady narrative management operation geared toward manufacturing support for yet another imperialist military intervention in yet another Middle Eastern nation.

    Le Mesurier’s wife told police that he’d been struggling with psychological issues for which he was taking medications and had previously been hospitalized. Le Mesurier’s home was reportedly only accessible by fingerprint and no video footage of anyone besides Le Mesurier and his wife entering or leaving has been found.

    Establishment narrative managers, for their part, have been floating the possibility that the White Helmets founder was murdered by the Russian government. The Washington Examiner has published an article titled “Did Russia kill White Helmets founder James Le Mesurier?”

  425. Mr. XYZ says:
    @AP

    Is someone like Ilya Somin (born in the USSR, came to the US at age 5, is a pro-open borders libertarian) a serious exception to this rule as opposed to being a typical representative of ex-USSR Jewry?

    • Replies: @AP
  426. AP says:
    @Mr. XYZ

    I didn’t know this Somin guy. But Jews from Russia and Ukriane vote for far-right parties in Israel. I know two former USSR Jewsh couples in the USA (one from Ukraine, another from Moscow). Both are Trump supporters. I suspect this is common.

    I don’t know any Jews in Russia or Ukraine.

  427. annamaria says:
    @AP

    Sure. And the Kaganat of Nuland (former Ukraine) counts on the continuous cooperation with Russia, whatever the zio-banderites-articulated agenda: https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/inevitable-finale-nord-stream-2-saga

    Poland is one of the staunchest opponents of NS2 [North Stream 2]. The Eastern European country argues that Moscow is trying to divide Europe by circumventing traditional transit countries in the east and increasing dependency of the wealthier west, primarily Germany. Warsaw, though, has financial motives to oppose the project because Gazprom is aiming to export its gas directly to Germany instead of through what it considers more “unreliable” countries such as Ukraine and Poland. This measure will cost Eastern Europe billions in lost transit fees every year.

    Comment section:

    I, for one, welcome the era where this Brzezinski scum will be forgotten, and Eurasia will be free to do whatever they want to do without any americano Zionist interference.
    And it looks like I will live to see that cherished day before I die.

    More:

    Well, the deal is that the Polish citizen has ZERO to say about this decision. It is people similar to Nudelman who visit Poland and give the marching orders to their so-called political class. I won’t use the word “elite” because these people are anything but intelligent. The same goes for Ukraine, Slovakia, Latvia, Estonia etc. These countries are being driven to a very bad place in the Future by the Ruling Class in London and New York.

    and

    Only Western Imperialist are brazen enough to label a gas infrastructure project that would bring immense benefit to the receiving countries as a “weapon” and “tool of aggression”, while spending billions on actual weapons to kill poor, 3rd world peasants in a foreign land.

    more:

    The clan has put tremendous financial pressure on Russia and it’s population, over the last few years. Turning Ukraine into a failed state, blocked Russia’s use of swift, credit cards and payment systems, trying to convince Germany to pay an arm and a leg for natural gas from murica just to harm Russia’s income at Germany’s expense. Sanctions from other EU members etc.

  428. annamaria says:
    @AP

    What is your agenda on this forum? To whitewash the ziocons influence in Ukraine? As for Zelensky ethnicity, you should go argue with the New York Times and Haaretz; they certainly know better: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/24/world/europe/volodomyr-zelensky-ukraine-jewish-president.html
    https://www.haaretz.com/world-news/europe/.premium-ukraine-may-elect-a-jewish-president-here-s-why-it-s-not-an-issue-1.7142407

    RAY McGOVERN: Ukraine For Dummies: https://consortiumnews.com/2019/11/14/ray-mcgovern-ukraine-for-dummies/

    It seems that you are with Adam Schiff on this one:

    House Intelligence Committee Chairman Adam Schiff led off the proceedings with this: “In 2014, Russia invaded a United States ally, Ukraine, to reverse that nation’s embrace of the West, and to fulfill Vladimir Putin’s desire to rebuild a Russian empire…”

    Here is a short overview of the history of Ukraine for Mr./Ms “AP” and Mr. Hack:

    Late 1700s: Catherine the Great consolidated her rule; established Russia’s first and only warm-water naval base in Crimea.
    In 1919, after the Bolshevik Revolution, Moscow defeated resistance in Ukraine and the country becomes one of 15 Republics of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics (USSR).
    Khrushchev: Gave Ukraine away. (Wikipedia)
    In 1954, after Stalin’s death the year before, Nikita Khrushchev, a Ukrainian, assumed power. Pandering to Ukrainian supporters, he unilaterally decreed that henceforth Crimea would be part of the Ukrainian SSR, not the Russian SSR. Since all 15 Republics of the USSR were under tight rule from Moscow, the switch was a distinction without much of a difference — until later, when the USSR fell apart..
    Nov. 1989: Berlin wall down.
    Dec. 2-3, 1989: President George H. W. Bush invites Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev to summit talks in Malta; reassures him “the U.S. will not take advantage” of Soviet troubles in Eastern Europe. Bush had already been pushing the idea of a Europe whole and free, from Portugal to Vladivostok.
    A Consequential Quid Pro Quo
    Feb. 7-10, 1990: Secretary of State James Baker negotiates a quid pro quo; Soviet acceptance of the bitter pill of a reunited Germany (inside NATO), in return for an oral U.S. promise not to enlarge NATO “one inch more” to the East.
    Dec. 1991: the USSR falls apart. Suddenly it does matter that Khrushchev gave Crimea to the Ukrainian SSR; Moscow and Kyiv work out long-term arrangements for the Soviet navy to use the naval base at Sevastopol.
    The quid pro quo began to unravel in October 1996 during the last weeks of President Bill Clinton’s campaign when he said he would welcome Poland, Hungary and the Czech Republic into NATO — the earlier promise to Moscow notwithstanding. Former U.S. Ambassador to the USSR Jack Matlock, who took part in both the Bush-Gorbachev early-December 1989 summit in Malta and the Baker-Gorbachev discussions in early February 1990, has said, “The language used was absolute, including no ‘taking advantage’ by the U.S. … I don’t see how anybody could view the subsequent expansion of NATO as anything but ‘taking advantage,’ particularly since, by then, Russia was hardly a credible threat.” (From 16 members in 1990, NATO has grown to 29 member states — the additional 13 all lie east of Germany.)
    Feb. 1, 2008: Amid rumors of NATO planning to offer membership to Ukraine, Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov warns U.S. Ambassador William Burns that “Nyet Means Nyet.” Russia will react strongly to any move to bring Ukraine or Georgia into NATO. Thanks to WikiLeaks, we have Burns’s original cable from the embassy in Moscow.
    April 3, 2008: Included in Final Declaration from NATO summit in Bucharest: “NATO welcomes Ukraine’s and Georgia’s Euro-Atlantic aspirations for membership in NATO. We agreed today that these countries will become members of NATO.”
    Early September 2013: Putin helps Obama resist neocon demands to do “shock and awe” on Syria; Russians persuade President Bashar al-Assad to give up the Syrian army chemical weapons for destruction on a U.S. ship outfitted for chemical weapons destruction. Neocons are outraged over failing to mousetrap Obama into attacking Syria
    Dec. 2013: In a speech to the U.S.-Ukraine Foundation, Assistant Secretary of State for European Affairs Victoria Nuland says: “The United States has supported Ukraine’s European aspirations. … We have invested over $5 billion to assist Ukraine in these and other goals that will ensure a secure and prosperous and democratic Ukraine.”
    Feb. 4, 2014: Amid rioting on the Maidan in Kiev, YouTube carries Assistant Secretary of State Victoria Nuland’s last minute instructions to U.S. Ambassador to Ukraine Geoffrey Pyatt regarding the U.S. pick for new Ukrainian prime minister, Arseniy Yatsenyuk (aka “Yats”) and other plans for the imminent coup d’etat in Kiev. (See: ) When Pyatt expresses concern about EU misgivings about mounting a coup, Nuland says “Fuck the EU.” She then apologizes to the EU a day or two later — for the profanity, not for the coup. She also says that Vice President Joe Biden will help “glue this thing together”, meaning the coup.
    Feb. 22, 2014: Coup d’etat in Kyiv; appropriately labeled “the most blatant coup in history” by George Friedman, then President of the widely respected think-tank STRATFOR.
    Feb. 23, 2014: The date that NATO, Western diplomats, and the corporate media have chosen – disingenuously – as the beginning of recent European history, with silence about the coup orchestrated in Kyiv the day before. President Vladimir Putin returns to Moscow from the winter olympics in Sochi; confers with advisers about Crimea, deciding — unlike Khrushchev in 1954 — to arrange a plebiscite to let the people of Crimea, most of whom strongly opposed the coup regime, decide their own future..

    See more.
    Ukraine has become a toy-country for ziocons. The virtuous banderites (see Odessa massacre) are the willing tools of the ziocons.

    • Replies: @Reality Cheque
  429. @annamaria

    My, you are certainly not the brightest torch in the tiki here, are you? Likely American, so the concept of a country state having both a President and a Prime Minister is a little too much to process? Ukraine has both. So does Israel. And so does Russia, by the way, or rather did. Many countries in the world have a similar setup. I know it can be hard to keep track sometimes. Many here suffer from Juice On the Brain Syndrome, you are also apparently afflicted with Ukrop On the Brain Syndrome, on top of that. Did the Kremlin’s latest Top Secret Memo get lost in the Spam Filter? No one here is contesting the fact that President Zelensky is Jewish (3/4 to be precise). The post in question is that of the Prime Minister, which was taken over by Honcharuk from Groysman in August 2019. Honcharuk is not Jewish. Still confused? Think of Eye-a-Trolla Khamenei vs Rouhani.

    • Agree: Mr. Hack
    • LOL: iffen
    • Replies: @annamaria
  430. nymom says:

    Very interesting…

    One thing I think that has changed is that numbers don’t convey the advantages they used to in the past. Especially considering modern weapons make up for lack of numbers…

    A country like China, however, that has both numbers and modern weapons is in a very good position today…

  431. songbird says:

    I have heard that the Amish have an infant mortality rate of about 20%.

  432. annamaria says:
    @Reality Cheque

    Your “eye-a-trolla” frolicking does not allow you to notice the most important component of the discussion about Ukraine today:

    Feb. 4, 2014: Amid rioting on the Maidan in Kiev, YouTube carries Assistant Secretary of State Victoria Nuland’s last minute instructions to U.S. Ambassador to Ukraine Geoffrey Pyatt regarding the U.S. pick for new Ukrainian prime minister, Arseniy Yatsenyuk (aka “Yats”) and other plans for the imminent coup d’etat in Kiev. When Pyatt expresses concern about EU misgivings about mounting a coup, Nuland says “Fuck the EU.” She then apologizes to the EU a day or two later — for the profanity, not for the coup. She also says that Vice President Joe Biden will help “glue this thing together”, meaning the coup.
    Feb. 22, 2014: Coup d’etat in Kyiv; appropriately labeled “the most blatant coup in history” by George Friedman, then President of the widely respected think-tank STRATFOR.

    Guess you are proud to find Mr/Ms. Iffen among your admirers. Like other enthusiastic pro-Israel commenters on this forum, Mr/Ms Iffen sees no evil in the ziocon involvement in “doing” Ukraine in cooperation with banderites, along with the Jewish State material support for the self-proclaimed neo-Nazis, in kind of Israel-made rifles.
    Similar to other Israelis on this forum, you are quick at using abusive language.
    What is indeed amazing is your tolerance towards the zionists/banderites fusion.
    As for your smugness, it is not funny. You degrade yourself only.

  433. AP says:
    @annamaria

    Are you getting a heart attack now that Kolomoysky is coming out that he wants Ukraine to abandon the West for Russia, which after all is led by Netanyahu’s close friend Putin, who has Jewish in-laws?

    https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2019/11/13/ukrainian-tycoon-kolomoiskys-change-of-heart-over-russia-in-quotes-a68157

    — “They’re stronger anyway. We have to improve our relations.” … “What’s the fastest way to resolve issues and restore the relationship? Only money.”

    — “We’ll take $100 billion from the Russians. I think they’d love to give it to us today.”

    — “You all won’t take us [into NATO and the European Union].”

    — “There’s no use in wasting time on empty talk. Whereas Russia would love to bring us into a new Warsaw Pact.”

    — “[The United States uses Ukraine to wage] War against Russia … to the last Ukrainian.”

    — “People want peace, a good life, they don’t want to be at war. And you [the U.S.] are forcing us to be at war, and not even giving us the money for it.”

    — “If they get smart with us, we’ll go to Russia.”

    — “Russian tanks will be stationed near Krakow and Warsaw.” … “Your NATO will be soiling its pants and buying Pampers.”

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    , @annamaria
  434. Mr. Hack says:
    @AP

    Or is he just playing the one side off of the other to hasten even greater support from the West? What do you think?

  435. annamaria says:
    @AP

    I am not your in-law to have a heart attack in response to Kolomojsky’s pronouncements. Let banderites sort out their tender relationships with the leaders of the Jewish Community of Ukraine; they are the same family now.

    As for the bad, very bad Russians, the last time they had a victorious Jewish revolution was more than a hundred years ago. (By the way, both Lazar Kaganovitch and Naftali Frenkel were natives of Ukraine). Why don’t you notice the recent glorious Ukrainian events like the 2014 coup organized by the holy trinity of ziocons, banderites, and the CIA? You personally don’t like Russians and prefer people of other ethnicities… Be so. No one forces you to immerse yourself in Russain culture or even regard it as something worthy of your attention. Enjoy your new status.

  436. @annamaria

    Logistically (and logically) speaking, why would Israel even waste precious weapons on Ukraine? What does it stand to gain? Has it already run out of Pals to “genocide” so quickly?

    • Replies: @annamaria
    , @Dmitry
  437. annamaria says:

    The feeble-mindedness of Sweden government eagerly insulting and destroying the European civilization: https://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2019/11/11/feminism-and-immigrant-invaders-destroyed-europe/

    Why do white women continue to live in Sweden…? Polls show that 25% of Swedish women are afraid to leave their house even to go shopping. The 1,472% increase in violent rape has left Swedish women prisoners in their own homes. …

    In the latest outrage, four Eritreans forced a 13-year-old Swedish girl into a bathroom and took turns raping her while filming the gang rape. According to the news report, the vaginal rape was “preceded by violence consisting of at least two of the defendants grabbing the plaintiff’s neck and shoulder, slamming her head into a wall and pushing her into a bathroom.”
    If convicted, prosecutors hope that the four blacks are deported back to Eritrea and are banned from entering Sweden for at least 15 years. But the Swedish Migration Tribunal blocks deportations on “humanitarian grounds”…

    Punishment of rapists has collapsed.

    https://www.hannenabintuherland.com/europa/a-turn-for-the-worse-for-the-rape-capital-of-the-west-feminist-sweden/

    A study by the Swedish newspaper Aftonbladet found that 88 per cent of gang rapists in the Scandinavian country over the last six years have had a migrant background. Other figures show that migrants from Muslim-majority nations commit 84 per cent of “very violent” rapes in Sweden. This happens in a country that prides itself in having a Feminist government.

    Now, here a peculiar fact from DeLarge: Most of Sweden’s media is owned by Jewish families. The man who invented Swedish multiculturalism was in fact not a Swede at all but a holocaust survivor named David Schwarz. He dedicated his life into turning his new host nation into a multicultural country. …

    It is the same in the United States. Obama, the great savior, dumped 100,000 Somalis on Minneapolis and another 100,000 on Portland, Maine, and little doubt elsewhere.

  438. annamaria says:

    Oh, the irony: https://www.hannenabintuherland.com/religion/sergey-lavrov-aggressive-secularism-persecutes-christians/

    It is remarkable to see how Russian Foreign Minister, Sergej Lavrov is vocal in the support for Christianity and the respect of religions, while European political leaders steadily make the point of omitting references to Europe’s religious heritage and traditional values, precisely the foundation that once made the West a great civilization. …

    Quoting Lavrov from the UN Rights Council speech: “I have to mention the problems experienced by Christians in a number of West European states, where for some reason it has become politically incorrect to identify oneself as a Christian, and where people are even starting to become uncomfortable with Christian values that form the foundation of the European civilization. Aggressive secularism is gaining momentum. The notions of morality and traditional national, cultural and religious identity are being eroded.”

  439. iffen says:
    @annamaria

    Guess you are proud to find Mr/Ms. Iffen among your admirers.

    You should go over into the comment section of Fulford’s current VDare piece and explain to the commenters there how guilt by association really is the way to go.

  440. Dmitry says:
    @annamaria

    Conspiracy theory of Jews in Ukraine is one thing (Jews are heavily overrepresented in the elite or wealthy in Ukraine, although demographically the native Jews – as opposed to weird Haredim – are rapidly collapsing as a separate nationality).

    But claiming Israel supported one or other government in Ukraine, is crazy, considering the positive attitude of Yanukovich and his government to Israel, which can only be describe as some kind of love.

    This story you post of – scary appearing – Israeli machine guns in Ukraine, is a result of Yanukovich’s government buying for Ukrainian government license to produce such machine guns by itself.

    As we can see, Ukrainian government enter production of these guns (according to Israeli original designs) in 2010.

    Ukrainian government is purchasing them in 2011.
    https://warsonline.info/strelkovoe-oruzhie/ukrainskoe-strelkovoe-oruzhie-fort.html

    Note video is uploaded in 2011.

    Representative of the old government is enjoying life as political exile in Israel.(in the most bourgeois, Californian part of the country)

    And Yanukovich still wants to go to Israel for “medical treatment of tennis injuries”, even as Ukraine would request his extradition. (Yanukovich obviously wants to stay with wealthy friends which are living in exile in Israel).

    https://ria.ru/20181207/1547629974.html

    (I recall when they were claiming he and Azarov had gone to exile in Israel.
    http://mignews.com/news/politic/world/130115_210357_30525.html )

    • Replies: @annamaria
  441. Dmitry says:
    @Reality Cheque

    Governments and wealthy people, in almost all the post-Soviet Union sphere, often want to go or invest in Israel.

    Like Cyprus, Israel is viewed as a kind transition point between East and West.

    Some of this related to laundering money of corruption or organized crime to Israel, although this is of smaller magnitude than using Cyprus.

    There is also part of the military smuggling or purchase of weapons networks, as well as sanctions evasion – for example, even the majority owner of Kalashnikov Concern has built mysteriously a factory in Israel, although the Kalashnikov Concern money is intricately arriving, not from Russia, but from a Singapore company funded the British Virgin Islands. https://oleggranovsky.livejournal.com/123819.html

    This dynamic includes not just Russia/Ukraine et al, but also even some Muslim majority countries like Azerbaijan and Kazakhstan.

    From Israel’s point of view, they are not a popular country in other parts of the world, and boycotted by their neighbours, so they view this as expansion of their “Alliance of the periphery”.

    For Israel, if you are one of the most unpopular kid in the highschool – which is the reality -, then you cannot be discriminating about who are your friends (you will become friends with the other strange and unpopular kids).

    Historically (in the 1950-1980-s) this was an unsuccessful policy to alliance with countries like Iran and Turkey.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alliance_of_the_periphery

  442. @prime noticer

    most of the people in Ireland moved to the US, largely to our detriment.

    humorously, they’re now engaged in the business of giving away Ireland. like the Scots, a thousand years of struggle against the English, just so they could turn around and give it all away to third worlders.

    Yes, and just as bizarrely, spurning their Irish-American cousins as wannabes and “Plastic Paddies” while welcoming any Nigerian nigger who washes up on the beach as a “new Irishman.” I think this has to do with the fact that it’s extremely unfashionable now to not hate Americans and they wouldn’t want to look un-hip in front of their English neighbors: you know, the ones who oppressed them for centuries.

    .

  443. annamaria says:
    @Dmitry

    2018, July: “Rights Groups Demand Israel Stop Arming neo-Nazis in Ukraine:” https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/rights-groups-demand-israel-stop-arming-neo-nazis-in-the-ukraine-1.6248727

    Human rights activists petition the court to cease Israeli arms exports to Ukraine since some of these weapons reach neo-Nazi elements in Ukraine’s security forces

  444. tygertgr says:

    Are you aware of this demographic fact?

    https://ourfiniteworld.com/2019/11/14/do-the-worlds-energy-policies-make-sense/#more-44356

    Demographically, Warsaw and NATO stalled out at exactly the same moment. USA has continued to force the number higher by unpopular immigration.

  445. the idea of “white-washing” (in brazil, specially) sounds insane today, but that’s because we often forget what that 1900 cartogram was saying. that there were much more europeans than africans in the world back then.

    the social differences in brazil may be very much explained by the fact that the mass european immigration from around 1870 to 1920 concentraded in the south and south-east.

    so in northeast, “real” white families tend to be very much traditional, from a long lineage or a more recent internal migration anyway.

  446. Leftist says:

    At a guess, developed countries all experience falls in fertility due to a combination of things: –

    Sedentary lifestyles, processed food, stress, increased isolation, less time at home with families, mothers also being forced to work to meet ever higher mortgage or rent payments, increased exposure to chemicals used in the modern economy and artificial hormones, decreased testosterone due to lower levels of violence, loss of the traditional notion that having a family is a duty.

    I think that covers most of it. In short, we are reduced to cogs in a machine, penned up in concrete blocks, fed gunk, and subjected to endless media garbage. We become passive, fat, apathetic, and submissive.

  447. @annamaria

    Similar to other Israelis on this forum, you are quick at using abusive language

    Would any self-respecting Israeli be caught dead listening to this while crafting the perfect riposte? Quelle сюрприз? Sit back, relax, it’s Shabbat, have a jug of Gorilka.

  448. Ecological literacy is not a crime. Why does almost everyone avoid it? Earth can support a hundred billion people at one time? Perhaps if these “people” have all been genetically engineered to be the size of meerkats and with chloroplasts lining their lovely green skin.

    Today, the total biomass of humans and our domestic livestock far outweighs all the other vertebrate wildlife species combined, except for fish.
    https://www.pnas.org/content/115/25/6506

    If that does not knock the wind out of your anthropocentric sails, then digest this: some forty percent of all humanity gets their food only by virtue of synthetic nitrogen fertilizers.
    https://ourworldindata.org/how-many-people-does-synthetic-fertilizer-feed

    And why did South Korea try to get a long term lease on > a million acres of arable land in Madagascar? A. Their population is well past their nation’s carrying capacity — and they know it.
    http://www.cadtm.org/The-Daewoo-Madagascar-land-grab-Ten-years-on

    If I thought that USA could comfortably support billions more of big hot blooded Homo economicus, I might not object to mass immigration; I would not have an ecological leg to stand on.
    http://data.footprintnetwork.org/#/

    Marx hated Malthus. Just like those gum chewing economists, boasting how big a bubble they can blow, they all seem to forget — or just pretend they do not know — what happens after the music stops.
    “Cargoism: Delusion that technology will always save us from: Overshoot…” (R.I.P. WR Catton)

  449. Gerad. 12 says:
    @AP

    Lol…one lie after another to the excellent anna marie account

    What “business” has Putin been in between, KGB, working for Sobchak,FSB and President you cretin for him to be claimed as having a jewish business partner?

    No proof either that his daughter has married him either. Nothing definite about him and Kabaeva either after all those years.

    Pathetic beyond belief to use the fact that Ukraine being the most jewish controlled state after Israel, but it not having a jewish PM for about 10 seconds is a “gotcha” for vermin as yourself!

    Difficult to know wich of your BS is worst – claiming a tripling of ukrops poverty level, even with huge mass emigration is “best since 2009” is taking fantasist nonsense to new levels

  450. Osama says:

    If God created the Earth as well as the whole Universe, don’t you think God would be in charge of his creation. Man thinks he can decide what is good for everybody when he didn’t even create himself let alone the earth he is walking on. People need to stop all the madness scaring everyone with bogus Climate change, Population control, False flag 911 Terror, war by of deception, Fake National border’s,
    False National Pride, Central Bank Thievery, Money Changer Usury rip offs, etc………….!

    In the Qur’an, God says if you didn’t create yourselves, didn’t create the Earth you walk on then you better live your lives according to his Laws lest God’s wrath will be coming your way.

    Stop wasting time questioning God’s Judgement on his creation. Instead focus your energy in doing good and fighting falsehood based on Weapons of 911 Deception and money changer’s thievery and slavery.

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