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hostages

Come to think of it, the Huawei Affair – an entirely transparent power play against China, as Jeffrey Sachs convincingly shows – is returning the world to the medieval era of hostage taking.

It’s been a long way building up to it.

Still, Meng Wenzhou is a much bigger fish than the victims of previous such incidents, such as Maria Butina, who has been coerced into confessing to acting as a Russian foreign agent after six months in solitary. It is also synced with America’s trend to regard the entire world as its jurisdictional demesne, as demonstrated by the repeated detentions of alleged Russian hackers in American colonial territories and by the persecution of Assange.

But unlike Russia, it seems that China isn’t afraid to respond to American provocations, having now detained a second Canadian.

Eventually businessmen will only travel abroad if other side sends potential hostages as guarantee, and/or meetings will be held in Switzerland.

 
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  1. If this is a starting point to getting us back to medievialism in general, then okay. Let’s go!*

    * minus the bloodshed between Catholics and Orthodox [although is anyone really gonna me bad if the worst of the GREEK Orthodox get picked on?]

    I say this in full awareness of the fact that “medieval” probably isn’t as well-liked among Russians as it is among Western traditionalists.

    • Replies: @Swarthy Greek
  2. Why do you think the Swiss are not an American colony, too? I’d love it if they weren’t.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    , @Art Deco
    , @notanon
    , @bj
  3. Eventually businessmen will only travel abroad

    Not only businessmen, this might end tourism for any place except those countries whose main source of income is tourism.

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
  4. anonymous[965] • Disclaimer says:

    China detained a couple of “Canadians” LOL. No, they picked some good ones to detain, essentially foreign spies.

    [MORE]

    >Robert Malley (born 1963) is an American lawyer, political scientist and specialist in conflict resolution. He is currently the President and CEO at the International Crisis Group in Washington, DC[1]. Prior to holding that title, he served at the National Security Council under Barack Obama from February 2014 until January 2017. Prior to holding that title, he was Program Director for Middle East and North Africa at the International Crisis Group and Assistant to National Security Advisor Sandy Berger (1996–1998) and the Director for Democracy, Human Rights and Humanitarian Affairs at the National Security Council (1994–1996).[2] Malley is considered an expert on the Israeli–Palestinian conflict and has written extensively on this subject advocating rapprochement with Hamas and Muslim Brotherhood.[2] As Special Assistant to President Clinton, he was a member of the U.S. peace team and helped organize the 2000 Camp David Summit.[3] In 2015, the Obama administration appointed Rob Malley as its “point man” on the Middle East, leading the Middle East desk of the National Security Council.[4] In November 2015, Malley was named as President Obama’s new special ISIS advisor.[5]

    >Robert Malley was born in 1963 to Barbara (née Silverstein) Malley, a New Yorker who worked for the United Nations delegation of the Algerian National Liberation Front (FNL), and her husband, Simon Malley (1923–2006), an Egyptian-born Jewish journalist who grew up in Egypt and worked as a foreign correspondent for Al Gomhuria. The elder Malley spent time in New York, writing about international affairs, particularly about nationalist, anti-imperial movements in Africa, and made a key contribution by putting the FNL on the world map.[6]

    >George Mark Malloch Brown, Baron Malloch-Brown KCMG PC (born 16 September 1953)[1] is a former UK government minister (2007 – 2009) and United Nations Deputy Secretary-General (2006), as well as development specialist at the World Bank and United Nations (1994 – 2005), and a communications consultant and journalist. He was Minister of State in the Foreign and Commonwealth Office of the British Labour party government with responsibility for Africa, Asia and the United Nations (June 2007 – July 2009). Following his appointment to government, Malloch Brown was created a life peer on 9 July 2007 as Baron Malloch-Brown, of St Leonard’s Forest in the County of West Sussex[2] (his title is hyphenated but his surname is not). Malloch Brown was previously at the World Bank (1994–1999), the Administrator of the United Nations Development Programme (1999–2005) and briefly United Nations Deputy Secretary-General (April to December 2006). He had previously worked at the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees (1979–1983). He is also a former journalist for The Economist, development specialist, and communications consultant. He has served as Chair of the Royal African Society,[3] among other non-governmental and private sector roles, such as membership of the Executive Committee of the International Crisis Group.

    >Malloch Brown “worked extensively on privatisation and other economic reform issues with leaders in Eastern Europe and Russia”.[12]

    IOW he, although apparently not Jewish himself, aided the Jews in the rape of Russia post-USSR.

    Nice group they’re in:

    >The International Crisis Group (ICG; also simply known as the Crisis Group) is a transnational non-profit, non-governmental organization founded in 1995 that carries out field research on violent conflict and advances policies to prevent, mitigate or resolve conflict. It advocates policies directly with governments, multilateral organisations and other political actors as well as the media.

    >The ICG garnered controversy in April 2013 as it awarded Myanmar President Thein Sein its “In Pursuit of Peace Award”, with the award ceremony coinciding with the publication of a Human Rights Watch report of ethnic cleansing by Sein’s administration.[1]
    Criticism

    >Gareth Evans, president and CEO of the International Crisis Group for nine years and former foreign minister of Australia, officially recognized East Timor as a province of Indonesia, a decade after the dictatorship invaded and carried out a “genocide” of the East Timorese in 1991, killing 200,000, according to a report co-sponsored by the Australian Parliament.[2] Evans described the massacre by the Indonesian Army as an “aberration”.[3]

    >A July 2014 special edition of the peer-reviewed journal Third World Quarterly published 10 critiques of the organisation, ranging from it’s influence on foreign-policy makers, “manufacturing” crises, and the methodologies it deploys in gathering its research.[4]

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Malley
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Malloch_Brown,_Baron_Malloch-Brown
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Crisis_Group

    • Replies: @DFH
    , @YetAnotherAnon
  5. WHAT says:

    I can see custom campaings for CK2 springing up like rain shrooms now.

  6. @John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan

    As a Greek orthodox, i’d really like to know what grudge you hold against the Greek orthodox community.

    • Replies: @Seraphim
  7. Mr. Hack says:

    Maria Butina, who has been coerced into confessing to acting as a Russian foreign agent after six months in solitary.

    How do you know for cerftain that she wasn’t? I’m not saying that she was, but why not wait till all of the evidence is in, before comong to a conclusion? (unless you already have access to all of the particulars?).

  8. Anonymous[346] • Disclaimer says:

    Re: Butina, you must read Sidney Powell’s Licensed to Lie. It’s monstrous what federal prosecutors can do and is orders of magnitude more vicious and Orwellian than my uber-cynical self could’ve ever imagined. You’d be shocked by how federal law enforcement and prosecutors can systematically destroy the lives of good people. And with impunity. And a person’s chance of winning a federal case has a success rate lower than getting accepted into Harvard as a freshman. And the price to win your federal case is about quadruple the cost of four years at Harvard. If the rich and powerful (Enron, Merrill Lynch execs and U.S. Senator Stevens) are not safe, God forbid the little guy who finds himor herself in the cross hairs. In the last couple of days we’ve learned how the FBI showed decency on the level of the demonic in setting up Gen. Flynn, can you imagine what they’ll do to a little guy, especially when there’s no spotlight on them??

    It’s available in epub format on Library Genesis, btw (I bought my copy on Amazon).

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  9. songbird says:

    Interesting: two white guys. I wasn’t sure what exactly was involved, since China seems to consider Chinese expats as being under their jurisdiction.

    How many days are we at now? Dec. 10th and 12th. Not too long. I don’t think we are really in new territory yet.

    Their approach is interesting. I don’t think Trump has any leeway in this. The question is how much does the Canadian leadership have? I think I heard 90% of requests are approved – so that seems like some potential for wiggle room.

  10. we were already returning to a serf form of land utilization, and that transition is much further along. feudal land systems are returning, and serfdom is what life will be like for future generations.

    most people won’t own land anymore, as they did for a couple hundred years here in the west, which we can now see, was a historical anomaly, much like company pensions for retiring workers.

    • Replies: @Rosie
    , @bj
  11. What are the odds that Butina will claim asylum in US once her ordeal is over? You know, to protect herself from Putin’s violent retribution. lol I’ve seen such theories on Twitter.

    Everything about this woman indicates that she is a dumb, self-serving ho. I bet she’ll stay in America, if they allow her to stay.

  12. Anonymous[396] • Disclaimer says:
    @reiner Tor

    Agreed. I think the days of independent (or rogue, depending on your view) Switzerland are in the past. Remember, it was Switzerland that arrested Polanski on US request and seemed closed to extraditing him, something even the very pro-US Poland never did.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    , @Matra
  13. Anonymous[375] • Disclaimer says:

    The Canadian detainees aren’t businessmen. Looking into their backgrounds, they probably have some connection to Canadian intelligence. One of them is or was a diplomat, which is a common cover for intelligence agents, and the other has personally dealt with Kim Jong Un, which is the sort of thing an intel agent might be placed into.

  14. DFH says:
    @anonymous

    Couldn’t have happened to a worse pair of deracinated internationalist shills

  15. @Anonymous

    Interestingly they finally extradited this guy to Russia, but almost to the US:

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yevgeny_Adamov?wprov=sfti1

    There was some fight over their tax haven status, and now in Switzerland each bank reports dutifully to the US.

  16. Anonymous[346] • Disclaimer says:

    Shock, I just read Chrystia Freeland‘s bio on Wikipedia and found she’s not Jewish but of Ukrainian Catholic extraction. A lot of Ukrainians in Canada, the most famous being Gretzky (who’s been eclipsed by Russian NHLer Alex Ovechkin https://www.13thforward.com/2018/12/12/mike-milbury-thinks-alex-ovechkin-is-the-best-goal-scorer-that-ever-laced-on-a-pair-of-skates/).

    • Replies: @Felix Keverich
    , @Matra
  17. hmmm says:

    Trump wasn’t the one who decided Meng should be arrested. He probably didn’t even know it was going to happen.

    https://www.wsj.com/articles/trump-aides-warn-him-against-intervening-in-huawei-case-11544710475?tesla=y&mod=article_inline

  18. donnyess says:

    Maybe Mark Twain was right. The Trump admin and loyal gremlins should look back in history and learn how Charles Levine managed to lose the Orteig Prize. If you start playing dominance games, you better hold all the cards and you better know all the angles…and it’s a big world out there.

    The Chinese should know that telecom is a key strategic industry in the US. China is a sweatshop nation…and apparently destined to stay that way.

  19. Art Deco says:
    @reiner Tor

    Enumerate the number of American colonists living in Switzerland at the behest of government policy.

  20. There is published historical argument that what enraged Genghis Khan and led him to destroy the Persian Empire, was quite this same type of un-civilised rogue behaviour as the USA is engaged in … Persians attacking trade caravans, kidnapping and killing ambassadors

    The interesting thing re China, is how quickly they act on what Ron Unz and I talked about in our nearly-simultaneously-published pair of articles this morning, on Ms Meng and the neo-con Jews at the centre of attacking her (mine on Henry Makow’s website in Canada) –

    China is quite able to move in and put the squeeze on Sheldon Adelson’s casinos in Macau … Netanyahu’s friend Adelson, one of the world richest people in the world, is the key USA funder of Israel-first and anti-Iran obsessions … he is thus quite responsible for Ms Meng’s arrest, and as Ron says, Adelson could end this with a phone call to his Senator etc friends

    Did Adelson and his allies not think this one through?

    Or is it that the China-USA ‘conflict’, bringing profits and pretexts to the war and gov machine in the West, also has the zing of giving China’s gov a ‘patriotic’ agenda, exactly now as the global economy is about to go into the tank … there are a lot of Chabad offices in China too … ‘Putin’s rabbi’ is a Chabadnik, will Xi link up with one too?

    • Replies: @Svigor
  21. @Anonymous

    You don’t know the best part of it: Chrystia Freeland’s grandfather was a Nazi collaborator!

    A lot of Ukrainians in Canada are like this: descendants of collaborators, who fled with retreating German army.

    Explains Faith Goldy phenomenon to an extent
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faith_Goldy

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    , @Mikhail
  22. Matra says:
    @Anonymous

    Remember, it was Switzerland that arrested Polanski on US request and seemed closed to extraditing him

    But in the end they did not extradite the child-drugging Hollywood rapist. Virtually all European countries and Canada have refused to extradite violent criminals to the US on numerous occasions, usually because of leftist virtue-signalling over the death penalty. This plays into the whole Europeans (and Canadians) as part of the ‘Blue Empire’ theory.

    OT – I noticed Russia is not among the countries that have, thus far, refused to sign up to the Marrakesh UN accord on refugees. Ultra PC Belgium’s government collapsed over the issue, thanks to the main Flemish party. Slovenia, Czechia, Slovakia, Bulgaria, and Poland in the Slavic world and Anglo USA and Australia are refusing to sign. Is Russia more PC than those countries?

    • Agree: Guillaume Tell
  23. Matra says:
    @Anonymous

    Freeland, last I heard, is actually banned from entering Russia. Trudeau obviously doesn’t care too much about relations with Russia. She comes from a long line of Ukrainian multiculti activists who despite prospering in Anglo-Canada chooses to piss on the country’s heritage and founding stock.

    BTW Ovechkin is definitely Russian, not Ukrainian. I’ve seen him on TV in recent years wearing the Ribbon of St George on his suit before games and explaining to media why he wears it in May.

  24. Svigor says:
    @Brabantian

    There is published historical argument that what enraged Genghis Khan and led him to destroy the Persian Empire, was quite this same type of un-civilised rogue behaviour as the USA is engaged in … Persians attacking trade caravans, kidnapping and killing ambassadors

    The Mongol swine were autistic and constantly searching for Talmudic justifications for their slaughters. They pretended to care greatly about their ambassadors so as to have a constant excuse for their aggression, because their ambassadors were just as insufferably arrogant and offensive as the rest of their race.

    • Replies: @anon
    , @Parbes
  25. Anonymous[375] • Disclaimer says:
    @Felix Keverich

    I have noticed that there’s a prominent Ukrainian Canadian community that’s quite hostile to Russia. This is unusual because you never see or hear about an active Ukrainian American community, let alone one that is publicly hostile to Russia. That function is largely fulfilled by Russian Jews in the US. It’s like all the anti-Russian Ukrainians immigrated to Canada rather than the US.

    • Replies: @Mikhail
    , @utu
  26. @Matra

    She comes from a long line of Ukrainian multiculti activists who despite prospering in Anglo-Canada chooses to piss on the country’s heritage and founding stock.

    lolwut? There is no such thing as a Ukrainian multiculti activist. Her granddad was editing a Nazi newspaper during WW2, actual Nazi newspaper in occupied Ukraine! Freeland never disavowed him.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  27. Matra says:

    There is no such thing as a Ukrainian multiculti activist.

    I guess you know nothing about 20th century Canadian history.

    Her granddad was editing a Nazi newspaper during WW2, actual Nazi newspaper in occupied Ukraine! Freeland never disavowed him

    Thomas Walkom of the Toronto Star was the one who brought this story out into the open last year: Chrystia Freeland and the Russian Disinformation bogeyman

    Other than radical leftists and Nazi-obsessed Russian Sovoks no one cares about her grandfather as the Soviets were awful and Ukrainians were in a difficult position. The problem is that Freeland has talked up her family’s background, including her grandfather, to attack opponents of liberal internationalism and promote present-day Ukraine, whilst leaving out which side he was on during the war. Given that opponents of her liberal internationalism are regularly denounced in the West as fascists this ought to hurt her credibility.

  28. Mikhail says: • Website
    @Anonymous

    There’re numerically more Ukrainian-Americans than Ukrainian Canadians. Per capita, the latter is noticeably greater.

    Careful not to lump all Jews, Ukrainians and Russians thinking in a certain way. Anglo-American mass media and body politic favor some Russians over others. Likewise, with Ukrainian and Jewish views of Russia. Hence, relying too much on Anglo-American mass media and body politic leads to a skewed imagery.

  29. utu says:
    @Anonymous

    (1) Canada did not have the melting pot ideology. (2) Canada did no have significant Black population that in America was used to break European non-Protestant groups and make them assume Protestant invented white identity. (3) HM Government knew what it was doing when bringing various waves of Ukrainian immigrants including the most deplorable Nazi collaborators. The deep states of empires can think in very long terms. Ukrainians were kept on the back burner to be used when the opportunity would arrive. Even Ukrainian anti-Semitism was tolerated.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    , @El Dato
  30. Anonymous[396] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anonymous

    I’ve met a number of lawyers who have said that prosecutors are, as a class, the scummiest, least ethical segment of their profession. This is due to two reasons: one, they almost always get away with/are rewarded for their scumbag behavior due to having the imprimatur of representing the government, and two, they’re all so totally convinced of the righteousness of their cause that they never even consider the possibility that they’re acting immorally.

    Tl; dr don’t talk to the cops

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    , @ussr andy
  31. @Matra

    I was responding specifically to this statement of yours:

    She comes from a long line of Ukrainian multiculti activists who despite prospering in Anglo-Canada chooses to piss on the country’s heritage and founding stock.

    Clearly, this doesn’t apply to her grandfather. I’m pretty sure that Freeland is not a committed liberal either. She could have disavowed her racist family like many liberals do, but chose not to.

    It’s just that with Canada being a totalitarian society, only certain (liberal) opinions can be voiced in public.

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
  32. Seraphim says:
    @Swarthy Greek

    KKK is known for its animus against the Church.

  33. Mr. Hack says:
    @utu

    HM Government knew what it was doing when bringing various waves of Ukrainian immigrants including the most deplorable Nazi collaborators. The deep states of empires can think in very long terms. Ukrainians were kept on the back burner to be used when the opportunity would arrive. Even Ukrainian anti-Semitism was tolerated.

    Really? Besides letting hard working Ukrainian farmers into Canada to settle and work the wheat-fields and lands of the vast Western prairie provinces, I wonder what nefarious plans of world domination the sophisticated ‘deep state’ Canadian masters had in mind when they let in all of the Ukrainian ‘Nazis’ in the late 19th and early 20th centuries? Where do you get the inspiration to write this kind of fake history anyway?

    • Replies: @The Big Red Scary
  34. Anonymous[346] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anonymous

    Tl; dr don’t talk to the cops

    I just finished listening to a book, You Have the Right to Remain Innocent. It’s about never talking with police. A real eye-opener. I got this book when someone on Unz posted a video of this author, James Duane, giving a talk on the same subject on YouTube. This book should he mandatory reading/listening for every American high schooler.

    https://www.audible.com/pd/You-Have-the-Right-to-Remain-Innocent-Audiobook/B01KGLEQM0?qid=1544763109&sr=sr_1_1&ref=a_search_c3_lProduct_1_1&pf_rd_p=e81b7c27-6880-467a-b5a7-13cef5d729fe&pf_rd_r=W3H6TDM2F5B9MQXEH51W&

  35. ussr andy says:
    @Anonymous

    some cases, the prosecutor was not scummy enough.

    I watched all of the Jodi Arias trial on YT. Juan Martinez is a star, imo. The way he wiped the floor with the menagerie of charlatans the defense fielded, visibly 3rd or 4th choice each one of them (a bulld*** feminist who made a cushy living out of savaging men in child custody cases and never testified on behalf of a male client – she later claimed – like the good SJW BioLeninist she is – that Martinez’ cross gave her PTSD; a psychoanalyst who for some reason went from the East coast to Arizona (ethics violations?) and wasn’t able so much as administer a test to Arias without violating protocol) etc.

    Generally, I think there should ideally be no “alpha-ness” gradient between prosecutor and defense, esp. in common law systems which seem to depend on theatrics more. When there is, you get stuff like OJ and Casey Anthony (both chicks.)

    • Replies: @ussr andy
  36. ussr andy says:
    @ussr andy

    add to that that he seems like a very soft-spoken, nice man, total opposite of his courtroom self, in his interviews to the media.

    >When there is, you get stuff like OJ and Casey Anthony (both chicks.)

    although, in the last case, one could argue that the state just didn’t do its job very well. If so, kudos to the defense attorney. This isn’t the 16th C., moral outrage is no substitute for forensics and a coherent timeline. And the first case was basically race vs “gender” (Sailer)(who would the black-women jury sympathize with more, OJ or Nicole?) and race won.

  37. “But unlike Russia, it seems that China isn’t afraid to respond to American provocations, having now detained a second Canadian.”

    Yes, nothing teaches the Americans a lesson like grabbing a Canadian or two off the streets!

    • Replies: @neutral
  38. anon[268] • Disclaimer says:
    @Svigor

    The Mongol swine were autistic

    The Mongols were the greatest empire ever, do not shit on them.

    When Mr. Karlin recognizes that Russian Empire is a lost cause, picks up the banner of Baron von Ungern-Sternberg and restores the Mongol Empire in its full glory, you will be in a world of hurt, snowflake 😉

    • Replies: @sean42
    , @Mr. Hack
  39. @Matra

    Given that opponents of her liberal internationalism are regularly denounced in the West as fascists this ought to hurt her credibility.

    It doesn’t matter. Fascism to these people has no connection whatsoever to the historical movement and it just means whoever is on their side at the moment. Russia is no different and since the end of WWII fascist has just meant “not aligned with Russia”; Russia was perfectly willing to work with fascists as soon as the war was over and they never needed to repent.

    A feature of small country politics is the high number of people who are simply opportunistic bootlickers who align themselves with whatever larger power they think is the winning bet. Both the Americans and the Russians have often preferred working with these people rather their supposed ideological allies. Opportunists often of course switch their large power sponsors depending on who they think is winning and this gets forgiven.

    There are of course some uncompromising people like some communists. In my country (Finland) there were fanatical communists who were willing to advocate for the USSR during the war and many such people were executed. There was no similar set of committed sympathizers for Nazi Germany but there were a lot of opportunistic bootlickers betting on German victory. After the war the communists ended up disappointed as a lot of the bootlickers switched from praising Hitler to praising Stalin and it turned out that Russia actually preferred to work with the bootlickers rather than the committed communists. True communists tended to expect Moscow to actually follow communist dogma whereas the converted bootlickers would just do whatever they were told to do.

    Similarly, the Americans these days seem to view it as a *positive* if someone or their family or political party has a past of praising Nazi Germany or the Soviet Union. Such swapping of the great power sponsor is evidence of lack of principles and they *want to* work with people who lack principles. Opportunists who are in it for the great power sponsorship are willing to do whatever the great power wants them to do while true believing ideologues have an annoying tendency of expecting the great power sponsor to actually follow its professed ideology.

    PS. There was one past “sin” that the Russians under Stalin or Khrushchev would not forgive and that was if someone or their family had been some sort of a Tsarist loyalist or counter-revolutionary in 1917-1918. A past newspaper career praising Hitler meant nothing in comparison to that and the “anti-fascism” of the Soviet Union was always pure posture and war propaganda compared to the actual ideological commitment they had against opponents of the revolution.

    • Agree: Matra
    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    , @Beckow
  40. @Jaakko Raipala

    For what it’s worth, former supporters of Horthy rarely got the opportunity to serve the commies, though there are examples in the judiciary and similar.

    On the other hand, the Americans seem to have preferred the ex-commies and their allies against Orbán (whose political career started with the founding of Fidesz as a strongly anti-communist party), already under Clinton, through the Dubya and Obama administrations. It now seems to be changing, with the Trump administration being neutral at least.

    • Replies: @Jaakko Raipala
  41. sean42 says:
    @anon

    Hungarians, Croatians, Poles, and Mamlukes certainly made them autistic and look like one trick ponies.

    • Replies: @Parbes
    , @Svigor
    , @melanf
  42. neutral says:

    It would be wonderful if China arrested Adelson in Macau.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
  43. @neutral

    Unfortunately it’s not going to happen. But we can always hope.

  44. @anonymous

    Malloch Brown was a Blair acolyte.

  45. @Mr. Hack

    Mr. Hack, while I often disagree with you, your in-group mentality with respect to people from the land of your ancestors is normal and understandable.

    It seems to me, however, that the average Ukrainian in North America is at least a standard deviation more nationalistic than the other Slavs in North America. For example, my ethnically Ukrainian wife and her other Orthodox girlfriends (Bulgarians, Serbians, Romanians, Greeks, and so on) used to organize church fundraisers in the form of “Slavic cultural festivals”, to which even Catholic and atheist Croats, Czechs, and Slovaks would show up for a good time. But besides my wife, there was nary a Ukrainian in attendance. In fact, one local Ukrainian family, upon being invited, said that they do not “assimilate”.

    Also, on my travels through North America (before I spoke Russian or moved to Russia), I have often visited Ukrainian Orthodox churches, but eventually began avoiding them because I found hyper-nationalistic, in a way that would make even the Greeks blush.

    Perhaps my sample is biased, or perhaps it is representative. Either way, you might have some insight.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    , @AP
  46. neutral says:
    @The Alarmist

    Canadian and American are the same thing, America asking Canada to arrest some Chinese person is like asking one of their own to do it.

    • Replies: @The Alarmist
  47. Mr. Hack says:
    @The Big Red Scary

    You may be right and certainly are entitled to formulate your own opinion about Ukrainian-Americans (Ukrainian-Canadians or Ukrainians in Ukraine?) based on your own personal experiences. I can unequivocally point out and state that although the Ukrainian churches in North America help promote a sense of Ukrainian ethnicity and solidarity, it’s a far cry from what it once was back in the 1960’s, 1970’s and much earlier on. The number of churches that still use the Ukrainian language during mass is dwindling every year in favor of English. Churches are even shutting down in some instances, due to lack of participation (I know of two Ukrainian Orthodox churches that have done so in recent years, one in Denver and one in Minneapolis). These things, are of course to be expected, in a large melting pot such as the US and even in Canada (contrary to Canada’s perceived adherence to multiculturalism).

    My opposition to Mr. Utu’s flippant remarks in comment #30 are based on historical facts, not fiction.He clearly doesn’t know what he’ talking about and has been watching too many reruns of the X-files. 🙂

    • Replies: @The Big Red Scary
  48. Mr. Hack says:
    @anon

    Russian imperialism, including some aspects of Russian nationalism is very much a recreation of Mongolism in Eurasia, with the main and important difference being that the Russian ethnos has replaced the Mongol one. The two main political movements within 20th century Russia, outside of communism, have been nationalism and Eurasianism, with the latter clearly making inroads over the former in the 21st century. Thus you have the seeds of conflict emanating between Russia and China for supremacy within this conflict. The current state of ‘cooperation’ between these two states is only temporary, while they sort out how they must deal with the West (my bet is on China coming out on top in this contest).

    • Replies: @melanf
  49. OT

    Zero Hedge is not a very reliable source, and I only glossed over it. How serious it is that Ukraine is thinking about acquiring nukes?

    https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-12-13/ukraine-wants-nuclear-weapons-will-west-bow-regime-kiev

    • Replies: @notanon
  50. @Matra

    Canada as a political entity was founded by French settlers. Anglos were colonisers who did everything to destroy French Canadian identity, from renaming Canadians quebeckers,to imposing « multiculturalism » to erase French culture.

  51. Parbes says:
    @Svigor

    Idiot. You are a worthless, cretinous bigot with ZERO knowledge or understanding of history. You should change your screen name to “Ignorant Swine”, which would much better suit you.

    • Replies: @Svigor
  52. @neutral

    Them’s fightin’ words to 37m Canucks, or at least the 26m or so who understand English.

    • Replies: @neutral
  53. Parbes says:
    @sean42

    Hah hah hah, you are an idiot with abysmal knowledge of history too – even worse than the knuckledragging cretin “Svigor”, if such a thing is possible… Any average Mongol warrior would have made short work of the both of you keyboard cowboy imbeciles.

  54. @Swarthy Greek

    You forgot the part where the Anglos created Cajuns by deporting scads of the Quebeckers.

    • Replies: @The Alarmist
  55. @The Alarmist

    Actually I meant Acadians, no Quebeckers. It’s such a cute phrase that you burned it into my head.

  56. melanf says:
    @Mr. Hack

    The two main political movements within 20th century Russia, outside of communism, have been nationalism and Eurasianism,

    “Eurasianism” is a phenomenon that exists exclusively in Western propaganda. There is no “Eurasian movement” in Russia and never has been. Maybe you shouldn’t write about things about which you know less than nothing?

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    , @bj
  57. Mr. Hack says:
    @melanf

    Russian Eurasianism: An Ideology of EmpireJun 15, 2012
    by Marlène Laruelle

    Eurasianism and the European Far Right: Reshaping the Europe–Russia Relationship Kindle Edition
    by Marlene Laruelle (Author, Editor, Contributor), Emel Akçali (Contributor), Jean-Yves Camus (Contributor), Vügar İmanbeyli (Contributor), & 6 more

    Last War of the World-Island: The Geopolitics of Contemporary RussiaNov 20, 2018
    by Alexander Dugin

    The Gumilev Mystique: Biopolitics, Eurasianism, and the Construction of Community in Modern Russia (Culture and Society after Socialism)Feb 4, 2016
    by Mark Bassin and Ronald Grigor Suny

    Eurasia on the Edge: Managing Complexity (Russian, Eurasian, and Eastern European Politics)Oct 15, 2018 by Richard Sakwa and Piotr Dutkiewicz

    Symbols and the Image of the State in Eurasia (SpringerBriefs in Political Science)Oct 15, 2016
    by Anita Sengupta

    L’IDEOLOGIE EURASISTE RUSSE OU COMMENT PENSER L’EMPIRE (Essais historiques) (French Edition)Oct 1, 1999

    Between Europe and Asia: The Origins, Theories, and Legacies of Russian Eurasianism (Pitt Russian East European) (June 4, 2015)

    Russian Eurasianism: An Ideology of Empire (Woodrow Wilson Center Press) Hardcover – August 5, 20081605

    Exodus to East Philosophy Eurasianism Iskhod k Vostoku Filosofiya Evraziystva2008

    Personality in Eurasianism. Epistemological foundation / Lichnost v evraziystve. Gnoseologicheskie osnovaniya2008

    And how many countless scholarly and popular articles devoted to Russian Eurasianism? It’s not me that you need to convince of this fallacy that you’re trying to undue, but all of the scholars and politicians that believe that it’s real! 🙂

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    , @melanf
  58. Mr. Hack says:
    @Mr. Hack

    BTW, in case you didn’t know, the pre-eminent Russian historian of the 20th century, George Vernadsky was a ‘Eurasianist’, even as he evidenced very clear Ukrainian separatist tendencies, especially in his later years living and working in the West. Damn, those Ukrainian ‘Nazis’ must have got to him with a couple of dozen well placed pierogies and Baba’s borshch! 🙁

    • Replies: @anonymous coward
  59. melanf says:
    @Mr. Hack

    Russian Eurasianism: An Ideology of Empire blah, blah, blah.

    As I wrote “Eurasianism” is a phenomenon that exists exclusively in Western propaganda. Thank you for confirming my point of view about Western propaganda

    And how many countless scholarly and popular articles devoted to Russian Eurasianism?

    Propaganda is certainly a curious phenomenon, but bring any evidence of the existence in Russia, “Eurasianism movement” 🙂

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  60. @Mr. Hack

    “Pierogies” are a Polish food, not Ukrainian, you ignorant imbecile.

    Can’t even get the basic facts of your supposed ancestry right. Fucking shameful.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    , @Dmitry
  61. neutral says:
    @The Alarmist

    Well am I wrong? They might do meaningless things like showing off how they are good SJWs compared to American rednecks, but when it comes to things that matter, like this Huawei incident, you think they will ever say no?

  62. Mr. Hack says:
    @anonymous coward

    Oh, believe me,I know a lot more about ‘verenyki’ than you’ll ever know. Here in the West, due to the fact that so many early emigrants were from Western Ukraine, the term ‘pierogi’ stuck. As my neighborhood Galician Baba used to tell me:

    українські пироги, ви мені не вороги

    🙂

    • Replies: @anonymous coward
  63. Mr. Hack says:
    @melanf

    Take a close look at the names of the authors of these books, clearly most o them Russian in origin. I doubt if you’ve read a single one…actually, I’m starting to wonder if you know how to read? And I suppose that George Vernadky was a ‘propogandist’ and not a serious scholar?….

    • Replies: @melanf
  64. Rosie says:
    @prime noticer

    we were already returning to a serf form of land utilization, and that transition is much further along. feudal land systems are returning, and serfdom is what life will be like for future generations.

    most people won’t own land anymore, as they did for a couple hundred years here in the west, which we can now see, was a historical anomaly, much like company pensions for retiring workers.

    Will the part about defense and security from invasion being offered in exchange for a share of the produce come back too? Or will this just be a straight-up protection racket?

    • Replies: @notanon
  65. melanf says:
    @Mr. Hack

    I doubt if you’ve read a single one…actually

    Why would I read them? This is propaganda about the non-existent in Russia “Eurasianism movement” designed for Americans (who know nothing about Russia, and for this able to believe in such nonsense).

    And I suppose that George Vernadky was a ‘propogandist’ and not a serious scholar?….

    How does the American historian George Vernadsky (who died in 1973) prove the existence of the “Eurasianism movement”in Russia?

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    , @Mikhail
  66. Bill H says: • Website
    @Mr. Hack

    Evidence? Surely you jest. We no longer do evidence in this country.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  67. Mr. Hack says:
    @melanf

    Get real Melanf. Before Vernadsky emigrated to the West, he already had made notable contributions to Russian history in the place of his birth, Moscow Russia. He along with eminent scholars Petr Suvchinsky. Georgii Florovsky and Prince Nikolai Trubetsoki were all born within the Russian Empire and were the founding fathers of Eurasianist thought within Russia. Although a lot of their ideas were further developed and published in Turkey and the West, their thinking processes were all initially developed in their youth while living in Russia. I’m surprised that somebody born in the West, such as myself, has to point out all of this elementary knowledge to you, born where again?….

    • Replies: @melanf
    , @Beckow
    , @Mikhail
  68. Svigor says:
    @Parbes

    Nonsense. Anyone who has read anything about those lice-covered vermin, the Mongols, knows what I wrote is correct.

    • Replies: @Parbes
  69. Svigor says:
    @sean42

    Don’t forget the Delhi Sultanate, which completely annihilated the Mongol invasion force and enslaved the women and children the stupid Mongols had arrogantly brought with them in anticipation of settling down after their victory.

    LOL.

    Mongols were shit. They never achieved anything beyond advanced banditry. The only advanced region they ever conquered was China, which had pathetic fortifications, relative to her wealth. Most of the territory they conquered was a dump in one way or another; barren, steppe, or hinterland.

  70. @Felix Keverich

    Racism against whites, especially Russians, isn’t sinful in the Western liberal religion, so there is no need or pressure for her to do so. Hence why dweeb state ghouls are able to seamlessly work with Ukrainian neo-nazi militias.

    The main holy groups are Jews, negroes, and homo-sexuals. Canada being Canada, red Indians are also part of their pantheon (whom Cucknadians refer to as “First Nations”). In America red Indians are totally ignored these days (e.g. the opiod crisis is hitting them harder than anyone else, which no one talks about).

    Other groups come in for favorable consideration in proportion to their level of biological inferiority and social dysfunction. So taking swipes against gypsies or Australian aborigines is viewed unfavorably, whereas casual racism against orientals and subcontinentals is generally tolerated.

    Let’s also remember that much like her boss, she’s a total fool and a liar to boot. She has a bizarre habit of claiming meetings and telephone calls with Vladimir Putin which never occurred.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  71. @reiner Tor

    Don’t hold your breath. People voluntarily vacation in dubious locales like Mexico, Dubai, and South Africa. People deal well with routine risk, but deal very poorly with catastrophic risk (hence why insurance policies are often required by law or contract).

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  72. melanf says:
    @Mr. Hack

    Before Vernadsky emigrated to the West, he already had made notable contributions to Russian history in the place of his birth, Moscow Russia. He along with eminent scholars Petr Suvchinsky. Georgii Florovsky and Prince Nikolai Trubetsoki…

    It was a group of historians – emigrants who believed that the role of the Mongols and other steppe peoples in the history of medieval Russia is underestimated. This concept is marginal in Russian historical science.
    99.9% of the Russian population does not know who George Vernadsky, Trubetskoy, etc.was and what was their historical concept. In addition, these ideas (about the medieval history of Russia) have nothing in common (except the name) with the mythical “imperialist” ideology which is used as a Scarecrow by American propagandists.

    That is, in the objective reality, the ““Eurasianism movement”” exists exclusively in Western propaganda. In Russia it does not exist (and never existed ).

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    , @Beckow
  73. melanf says:
    @sean42

    Hungarians, Croatians, Poles, and Mamlukes certainly made them autistic and look like one trick ponies.

    The Mamluks (as well as the Vietnamese) defeated the Mongols, but at a time when Mongolian power was in decline. Hungarians, Croats and Poles (together with Teutonic knights) were utterly defeated by the Mongols (and these victories won by very small part of the Mongolian troops)

    • Replies: @Svigor
  74. Mr. Hack says:
    @Thorfinnsson

    People voluntarily vacation in dubious locales like Mexico, Dubai, and South Africa.

    All of the places mentioned undoubtedly have safe and interesting places to stay and vacation. Crime and ‘dubiousness’ are riff throughout the States, yet the last time I checked, tourism was booming here. I’ve stayed in Mexico city and visited the better parts of town getting there by subway from the airport, and nobody bothered me. Seeing how the subway system works there during the middle of the day was quite an interesting experience (some stops looked like sardine factories!). The bottom line is that you have to be careful wherever you go nowadays. Dubai?…..

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
  75. Beckow says:
    @Jaakko Raipala

    Opportunists with questionable pasts are preferred by all imperial projects. They can be easily blackmailed, or got rid off with a simple story. Having a ‘file’ on someone is a very valuable tool.

    In post-WWII Europe there was also a different dynamic: a substantial ideological overlap between socialists of different kind: from communists all the way to fascists/Nazis. They were committed to remaking the world and they believed that it was inevitable. For people like that switching back and forward is relatively easy. Many were capable of doing it quasi-sincerely.

    The messy past of many top cadres led to opportunities for brutal score-settling. After communists took power in the late 40’s they started to fight for top positions. Since many had previous links to nationalist-fascist groups, or had the wrong ethnic background, or family members with questionable past, it got really ugly. The communist terror in the early 50’s was mostly aimed at other communists – and WWII Nazi collaborators. Ideologues cannot help themselves, it is a dangerous downward spiral.

  76. @Mr. Hack

    I’m distinguishing between ordinary risk (for instance, car accidents) vs. catastrophic risk (aka tail risk).

    Many areas in America are indeed not safe, but this is a known quantity and easily planned for.

    The locations I listed expose you to tail risk.

    In Dubai there are very few legal rights and you can even be sent to debtors’ prison. Then there are charming cases where people claim to have been raped then get arrested for fornication.

    South Africa is in a pre-civil war situation.

    I actually would feel quite comfortable going to Mexico City or Monterrey, but the more popular beach tourist areas are now exposed to cartel operations–frequently kidnapping. So rather than visit Acapulco these days I’d go to a different beach destination. Cabo San Lucas is fine as Baja Sur is fine (other than the outrageous fact that Baja California belongs to Mexico thanks to the treachery of the Whig Party).

    How this relates to the point that I responded to is that these recent cases are not likely to change people’s tourism plans as the incidents are too rare for people to adjust their behavior.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  77. @Mr. Hack

    Yes. Let’s wait. Do you have a free moment in 2059?

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  78. @reiner Tor

    Well, Finland is rather different since it wasn’t ruled by nationalists during or before WWII, actually the government had been cracking down on “anti-democratic” right-wing movements in the 1930s.

    The peace established a body called the Allied Control Commission staffed by the British and the Russians which arranged show trials for people who were supposedly guilty of allying with Germany. Mostly, according to the British, anyone who was willing to become a stooge for Western interests was innocent and everyone who was courting the Russians was guilty; according to the Russians, anyone who was willing to become a stooge for Russian interests was innocent and everyone who was courting Western powers was guilty.

    The Russians were much more interested so they came out stronger and as a result the people jailed as “war guilty” were largely pro-Western liberals. Nationalists or fascist sympathizers were not punished and many who had worked closely with the Germans simply jumped into the Russian camp and were rewarded with political careers. The Russians wanted non-pro-British/non-pro-American people in high places and that often meant fascist sympathizers.

    The ultimate expression of this is President Kekkonen who ruled the country for decades as a semi-dictatorship with Soviet sponsorship. He was originally a pro-German radical nationalist who was building ties with the Nazis before they even took power (he was trying to lobby German racial theories to become more favorable to Finns since that was the big sticking point) and he was one of the biggest advocates of importing German ideology up to the point where he realized that Germany was going to lose. Being one of the first people to switch from pro-Hitlerism to pro-Stalinism, he was rewarded big time.

    The Russians were fine with the country running with a “converted” fascist President with largely the same policies that he would have supported if he had been installed by Germany (which actually might have happened if they had won fast). All that they cared about was that the country was aligned with Moscow and not the West – and that the former Tsarist aristocracy no longer had any power (that was their particular ideological obsessions, fascism not so much).

  79. This thing could indeed work for Switzerland. Or Liechtenstein even – for undercover actions, not visible for most people, because they’ve never heard of a country this small and old and oldfashioned discreet and all…

  80. Svigor says:
    @melanf

    LoL. Poles and Hungarians sent the filthy, lice-ridden bandits packing. Their cuck/anti-white apologists today mumble about internal lice-ridden bandit politics, but the fact is the Mongols conquered no one capable of building proper fortifications.

    • Replies: @melanf
  81. Mr. Hack says:
    @melanf

    Well, if you’re the representative of the prole nation, then yes perhaps 99.9% don’t know who Geroge Vernadsky was. If you’re talking with anybody who is actually interested in Russian history, then they’ll recognize George Vernadsky as being if not the very most respected Russian historian of the 20th century, then undoubtedly within the top 2-3.

    As far as ‘popular’ Russian writers, who even according to some has on occasion access to Putin’s ear, then Dugin must come to mind, and he’s certainly made a career out of promoting Eurasianism. Maybe even some of your proles have heard of him? 🙂

    • Replies: @melanf
    , @The Big Red Scary
    , @AP
  82. Mr. Hack says:
    @Thorfinnsson

    Be careful about considering Cabo. Some of my friends that own a condo there are shying away from the place, saying that it’s really gone down hill over the last couple of years. A number of murders on the beaches has been reported… a nasty affair…

  83. Beckow says:
    @melanf

    …““Eurasianism movement”” exists exclusively in Western propaganda

    West often creates fictional narratives about what it wants to designate as its ‘enemies’. It starts out as a throw-way idea, usually by an angry exile. Then it gets picked up by ‘think tanks‘, it is elaborated to death (there is not much else to do in a think tank), and used as endless incoherent allusions in political speeches and media.

    In the 80’s there were serious discussions about thousands of ‘Czech‘ tanks smashing through Nato defences in southern Germany (Fulda Gap sounds so sinister), and wiping out Western civilisation. Technically, the deep thinkers called them the ‘Warsaw Pact tanks‘, but on the border with Bavaria there were only Czechs. The idea was preposterous, Czechs after 500 years of docility would suddenly with communism rediscover their martial spirit and flatten Europe. Right. But one has to have an enemy.

    Similarly today we hear about the how ‘Arabs would speak Farsi in 5 minutes’ if US would cease protecting them. Or about the incredible ‘humanity and goodnesss’ of the post-apartheid blacks in S Africa. Completely upside-down nonsense is thrown out without much thought – it reflects pretty badly on the Western ability to police itself intellectually.

    Euroasianism doesn’t even make sense as a word (what would it mean?), but the think-tankers have developed whole industry talking about it. I suspect calling the Russians just ‘nationalist’ is not very effective, ‘communist’ is a bit dated, ‘authoritarian’ not specific enough – so we get ‘Euroasiatic‘. As an added benefit, the not-so-secret ethnic racists among many Rusophobes in Poland-Baltic states get to use the term ‘…asiatic‘ freely. It makes them so happy.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  84. Mr. Hack says:
    @Beckow

    Read my comment #68 – Eurasianism is not some goofy idea put out their by the CIA or by ‘deep state’ in order to disparage Russia.

  85. Beckow says:
    @Mr. Hack

    Meaning what exactly? Historical musings tend to be varied in all cultures – look at the dramatic variance one can find in US. That doesn’t mean there is a coherent ideology behind it: some Russians are more pro-Western, some less, a few might even like their Asian eastern neighbours.

    My point is that none of it adds up to a strategy. Russia turns inwards when it is rejected or threatened by the West. That often means that the tentative – but always present – links with Asia acquire more relative importance. But there is no such thing as ‘Euroasianism‘ in practise, and no Russian government has ever practised it. Isolation and self-sufficiency are not ‘Euroasianism‘, and they are done out of necessity, not by choice.

    (Are you by any chance one of those who gets excited by using the word ‘asiatic’ about Russia?)

  86. melanf says:
    @Svigor

    Poles and Hungarians sent the filthy, lice-ridden bandits packing. Their cuck/anti-white apologists today mumble about internal lice-ridden bandit politics, but the fact is the Mongols conquered no one capable of building proper fortifications.

    The Mongols conquered in Asia a lot of peoples capable of building proper fortifications. The Mongols besieged fortified cities for many months, sometimes years-and captured the city by storm in the end. But in Eastern Europe it was a cavalry RAID of very small forces of the Mongols-they defeated the army of Hungarians and poles, looted everything that is possible and returned to the steppe. If the Mongols conquered Europe as they conquered China and Central Asia – it would be a tragedy for Europe

    • Replies: @Beckow
    , @Svigor
  87. Mikhail says: • Website
    @melanf

    How does the American historian George Vernadsky (who died in 1973) prove the existence of the “Eurasianism movement”in Russia?

    Likewise with the likes of a contemporary PC GWU academic.

    At times, too much is focused on the differences between Slavophiles and Westerners, as well as the Eurasianists.

    Russia isn’t monolithic. Hence, one can find different leanings. Many Slavophiles not liking Peter’s forced Westernization, are nevertheless proud of Russian geopolitical advancements under him. Westernizers while feeling closer to Europe than Asia, don’t typically dispute Russia having close ties with Russia – something that many in the West do themselves.

    Whether in his earlier or later years, Vernadsky didn’t go against the view that modern day Russia, Ukraine and Belarus are descended from the same Rus entity, which in conjunction with the Russian Empire and Soviet periods, made them closely related peoples.

    The world was noticeably different in 1973. Imagine suddenly waking up from a coma dating back to that period.

  88. melanf says:
    @Mr. Hack

    Well, if you’re the representative of the prole nation, then yes perhaps 99.9% don’t know who Geroge Vernadsky was.

    I am definitely a representative of the nation of the proles, because all European Nations are the Nations of the proles. Similarly, 99.9% of English people don’t know who Arnold Toynby is.

    George Vernadsky as being if not the very most respected Russian historian of the 20th century, then undoubtedly within the top 2-3.

    Only in the West (because he worked at an American University). In Russia, he even in the top twenty will not enter. However, what do the studies of medieval history of Russia (written by Vernadsky) have to do with the mythical political ” Eurasianism movement”?

    As far as ‘popular’ Russian writers, who even according to some has on occasion access to Putin’s ear, then Dugin must come to mind, and he’s certainly made a career out of promoting Eurasianism. Maybe even some of your proles have heard of him?

    A joke?
    http://www.unz.com/akarlin/dugin-putins-39th-brain/
    And Yes 99.9% of the population of Russia don’t know who is Dugin. This figure is popular in the West but not in Russia

    • Replies: @Mikhail
    , @Mr. Hack
  89. Dmitry says:
    @Thorfinnsson

    How does this theory match?

    Chrystia Freeland’s grandfather was a Nazi propagandist. The story is famous because the grandfather was supporting killing of Jews in the second world war. There are many articles published about her family’s history, but she has nonetheless described her grandfather as a hero.

    In USA, to see a comparison, there was Operation Paperclip, which recruited intelligent German scientists. Many scientists were rehabilitated despite their position during the war, due to the high human capital potential that they could bring to America. In Canada, it seems there has been some flood of low level Nazis and collaborators escaping retribution after the war, but with no compensating filter for having high human capital that the Americans used.

    • Replies: @AP
  90. Mikhail says: • Website
    @melanf

    For political reasons, Western mass media, academia and body politic at large, will periodically make certain figures abroad larger than actuality. Dugin is one such instance. Related are the hack jobs done on some others like Ivan Ilyin.

  91. Beckow says:
    @melanf

    When Mongols invaded the Hungarian plains in the 13th century, there were almost no fortifications there. They raided and looted for about a year, then crossed to Poland and did the same. About 30% of population was exterminated, especially in low lying areas. Mongols found pleasure in killing people, it was their thing.

    Mongols left suddenly after some top honcho back home died and the struggle for succession started. I vaguely recall some sheep-lover named Batu who was involved. They left on their own, they were not defeated.

    After the Mongol invasion, the elite started to build castles and strengthen all fortified towns. Mongols mostly bypassed them in their killing spree. The rulers also started to invite colonists from Germany to repopulate many destroyed areas – that was a huge impetus to the German settlement in the east and eventually led to the 20th century conflagration.

    • Replies: @melanf
  92. Dmitry says:
    @anonymous coward

    Dumplings, as a recipe, originate from the Ural region, where it was known to be eaten by different nationalities already in the Middle Ages. It’s originally not from Poland, not from Ukraine, even if they became popular in later centuries.

    The question is whether arrived to Ural peoples originally from China/Central Asia, where there were many related recipes.

    • Replies: @utu
  93. Mr. Hack says:
    @melanf

    And I’m sure that the University of Kazan, that is one of the greatest institutions in the world devoted to the subject matter of oriental languages, history & culture is also a figment of the imagination of unemployed Western grant eaters too, that has nothing at all to do with Russia’s preoccupation with its huge Eastern expanse? Yawn….

    • Replies: @melanf
  94. @Mr. Hack

    Ukrainian Americans and Ukrainian Canadians, mostly. I spent only a few weeks in Ukraine itself, only in the central part, and a number of years ago. At the time, I would say my wife’s native village
    was not all overly nationalistic. In particular, the parish priest had just returned from a pilgrimage to St. Seraphim in Diveyevo.

    We hope to visit the village again sometime soon, though it’s going to be something of a nuisance getting there from Moscow, especially if they cancel the train routes, about which there was some talk.

    I’m sorry to hear some Ukrainian churches in North America are shutting down. Do you think young people are falling away from the Church altogether, or just joining other parishes? I’ve heard from friends that there is no shortage of lively parishes in the Twin Cities.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    , @Mikhail
  95. @Mr. Hack

    Dugin must come to mind, and he’s certainly made a career out of promoting Eurasianism. Maybe even some of your proles have heard of him?

    My father-in-law is middle class but not very intellectual and gets his over-dose of news from the standard Russian radio and television stations. He’s never heard of Dugin.

    I first heard of Dugin from some of my crazy Moscow friends, who used to know him from the underground music scene in the late 80s and early 90s.

  96. Mr. Hack says:
    @The Big Red Scary

    Young people, both native born and not, seem to be both falling away from the church due to the rampant spread of secularism (that’s been going on since at least the the 70’s) and joining other denominations. A lot of Americans, ion general, are giving up on their mainline protestant or Catholic roots, and are switching over to the newest denomination, the “non-denominationals” or not going to church at all.

    The Ukrainian Orthodox parishes in the Twin Cities are a mixed bag, as far as I can see (I don’t live there, but only sporadically visit). Two Orthodox churches have closed there in the last 20 years, being absorbed into the two remaining ones. Here’s a photo of the newest such church, an opulent little production in Arden Hills:

  97. Mikhail says: • Website
    @The Big Red Scary

    Several US religious denominations have been in decline. Many aren’t as religious. Intermarriage with other denominations is a contributing factor.

    Not uncommon for reformed and conservative synagogues in the US to become churches, orthodox synagogues, or something else.

  98. melanf says:
    @Mr. Hack

    And I’m sure that the University of Kazan, that is one of the greatest institutions in the world devoted to the subject matter of oriental languages, history & culture

    If this is proof of the existence of the “Eurasianist movement”, then the center of this movement is definitely Western Europe and America, where work much more оrientalists studying оriental languages/history/culture

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  99. Mr. Hack says:
    @melanf

    What’s the matter, are you sure that Russian political and civic leaders aren’t very interested in what goes on within 75% of Russian (Eurasian) land mass? Not to mention knowing more about its powerful Eastern Asian neighbors?

    • Replies: @melanf
    , @Hyperborean
  100. melanf says:
    @Beckow

    http://www.xlegio.ru/siege-machinery/medieval-siege/mongolian-siege-technologies/

    in Poland, the Mongols, twice defeating the Polish army in the battles with Turske and chmielnik, took and burned kraków (but not all – in the city center poles held the stone Cathedral), and their advanced troops ravaged the Small Poland and even managed to take (apparently, the “banishing”) in Wroclaw. But in the great Poland even after the defeat of the Polish king at Legnica, they failed to take in Legnica and Racibórz [139, p. 216-217]. In the Czech Kingdom, the success of the Mongols in the capture of cities were even more modest – they managed to ruin Moravia, but did not take the Olomouc monastery (where they faced tough resistance), Opava and Gradischensky monastery [ibid].
    In Hungary, the Mongols did their usual plan was able to impose the Hungarians a decisive battle at p Chaillot, where the main forces of the Hungarian king was routed, after which he engaged in the plundering of the Kingdom.
    First after the battle of Chaillot fell pest, the Mongols managed to take in three days of fierce battles. And, judging by the description of the Hungarian chronicler, the defenders of pest “tried their best to defend themselves, using ballistas and bows, releasing a huge number of copies of enemies, throwing a lot of stones from stone-throwing machines” After the capture of pest Mongols killed a significant number of its inhabitants, and then burned and took Buda, on the opposite Bank of the Danube.
    Kadan cavalry corps captured the town of Arad, Pereg, Egress, Temesvar, Gyulafehervar and Varadinov. In the latter case, they were rendered fierce resistance and Varadinov, the Mongols took with great difficulty [139, p. 219]. But Alba (székesfehérvár) the Mongols Kadan could not take – as explained by Thomas Split, Kadan “burned down all the houses of the suburb; besieging the city for several days, he constantly stormed it to take possession of it, but since the place was sufficiently protected by a lot of spilled around the swamps and defended his selected troops of soldiers with the help of installed on all sides of the machines, then… after futile attempts retreated” [51, p.116].
    At the same time, another corps of Mongols (apparently under the General command of Batu himself) was engaged in the ruin of Slovakia. The Mongols captured Banska Stiavnica, Pukanec, Krupin. But the Mongols could not capture Bratislava, Komarno, Trenchin, Nitra and betskov [139, p.220]. The last major success in the capture of cities in Hungary itself was the capture of Esztergom, the capital of the Kingdom. However, even here the Mongols did not achieve complete success – the citadel of Estergom Mongols not captured .
    The extreme Western limit of the Mongolian campaign was Croatia, where the cavalry corps of Kadan invaded. The Mongols were able taken Swac, Drivasto and Zagreb, but the Mongols were repulsed at Lissa, Grass and Ragusa (Dubrovnik) [139, pp. 221-222]. Kadan also did not dare to attack the heavily fortified Split. Class, according to Thomas of Split, the Mongols tried to take the “taking hand to hand combat”, but “since this place was fortified by nature, they are unable to cause significant damage,” while the defenders of the city caused them damage, “pushing huge stones»

  101. melanf says:
    @Mr. Hack

    What’s the matter, are you sure that Russian political and civic leaders aren’t very interested in what goes on within 75% of Russian (Eurasian) land mass? Not to mention knowing more about its powerful Eastern Asian neighbors?

    All this has nothing to do with the mythical ” Eurasianist movement”. For example, Anatoly Karlin is definitely interested in what is happening within 75% of the Russian (Eurasian) land, and undoubtedly wants to know more about powerful East Asian neighbors. Would you dare to call Karlin a “Eurasianist”?

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  102. Mr. Hack says:
    @melanf

    Karlin self styles himself a Russian nationalist, and that’s his prerogative. The fact that some Russian intellectuals see their role as a sort of vanguard within the larger Asian landmass to unify the hundreds of smaller ethnicities into one ‘Larger Russia’ is also their prerogative. I’m not sure that they’ll succeed in fulfilling their ‘white man’s’ burden, but who knows?

    • Replies: @melanf
    , @Seraphim
  103. melanf says:
    @Mr. Hack

    The fact that some Russian intellectuals see their role as a sort of vanguard within the larger Asian landmass to unify the hundreds of smaller ethnicities into one ‘Larger Russia’

    And who are these intellectuals? Dugin is just an urban lunatic. George Vernadsky or Lev Gumilev do not fit this description. However, if such intellectuals really exist-they have zero influence (and zero fame) in Russia. Because of this, it is ridiculous to talk about the mighty “Eurasianist movement”.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    , @AP
  104. notanon says:

    off-topic on the surface but not really…

    i had a thought about the odd aspects of the Saudi thing (i.e. the seeming split between two camps over MbS).

    Israel-first faction want war with Iran – responsible for Saudi coup, MbS etc.

    Globalist faction are fine with Iran getting attacked but are trying to slow it down cos they don’t want the oil supply disrupted by the shia living along the coasts of the sea lanes getting on suicide boats and blowing up oil tankers.

    hence the attempted suppression of the populations along the sea route (Bahrain, Yemen, Somalia etc) as preparation?

    • Replies: @Beckow
  105. utu says:
    @Dmitry

    The question is whether arrived to Ural peoples originally from China/Central Asia, where there were many related recipes.

    It is a safe bet it came from China but one would have to look at history of dumplings in China. It is more Northern China than Southern China.

    Besides of dumplings Poland got its predilection for tea drinking also from the East and not from the West via UK. West of Poland including Czechoslovakia they got it from UK. And they are not passionate tea drinkers there. More like in Southern Europe where when you ask for a tea they may inquire if you feel sick and whether you would like to have an aspirin as well.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    , @Anon
  106. Mr. Hack says:
    @melanf

    And the CIS, CES and EAEU (Eurasian Economic Union) have ‘zero influence’ on Russia’s economic and political projections into the future? The Eurasianist ideas put forth by a whole slew of historians has had no influence on these developments? Who’s being ‘ridiculous’?

    • Replies: @melanf
  107. @utu

    In Hungary, most people drink tea sweet (sugar or preferably honey) with lemon. Is it not how Russians do that? In England, it’s milk, and I don’t think it’s usually sweet; or is it?

    Anyway, we’re perhaps more into coffee than tea. Hungarian coffee culture is also at the crossroads of many different cultures, started with Turkish during the Ottoman occupation (one of the few positive things they brought to us), but then we adopted European (Italian and Vienna) coffee culture by the 19th century. And now specialty coffee, which is good.

    • Replies: @Anon
    , @utu
    , @Dmitry
  108. notanon says:
    @reiner Tor

    America is a banking mafia colony so if Switzerland was a colony of America that would make Switzerland a colony of it’s own banking mafia twice over.

  109. Beckow says:
    @notanon

    I think neither one wants an actual war. What they want is the extreme pressure the possibility of a war generates inside Iran. The hope is that economic and military pressure (short of a war) will create internal instability, street demonstrations, splits in the government. The Israel-first faction would also like to spice it up with occasional bombing. They are looking for the right timing, possibly with the right ‘media’ event.

    MbS has internal enemies in Saudi who have friends in the West. He is also perceived as immature and volatile. Plus there are the visits with Putin, unforgivable.

    • Replies: @notanon
  110. notanon says:
    @reiner Tor

    How serious it is that Ukraine is thinking about acquiring nukes?

    not serious at all

    how serious is it that neocons might be considering planting nukes in Ukraine for neocon reasons (i.e. connected to middle east wars) – now you mention it pretty likely.

  111. notanon says:
    @Beckow

    could well be right – similar to the anti-Russia stuff, trying to get people inside Russia to replace Pooty.

  112. notanon says:
    @Rosie

    unlike medieval barons they’ll have more people than they need so straight up protection racket at best – at worst having to fight in a coliseum to be allowed to be a serf

    supply and demand

    • Replies: @Beckow
  113. AP says:
    @Dmitry

    Chrystia Freeland’s grandfather was a Nazi propagandist.

    Relax. He was a Ukrainian activist who edited a Ukrainian newspaper under Nazi occupation. As a condition for this newspaper to be allowed to exist, he ran pro-Nazi and anti-semitic content, but the newspaper was focused on “normal” articles about Ukrainian cultural content or news. This makes him no more a Nazi propagandist than any Russian or Ukrainian schoolteacher or journalist who said good things about Lenin or Stalin was a Stalinist propagandist.

  114. Anon[282] • Disclaimer says:
    @utu

    Dumplings are dough and meat; their creation is not exactly rocket science and improvements in the method, like improvements in rocket science, would probably travel relatively freely though not necessarily be universally adopted.

  115. Beckow says:
    @notanon

    The (neo-)liberals nicely demonstrated that flooding the labor markets with more and more people will make the peons both powerless and docile. There is no need to suppress anything, or use non-economic methods, when the supply-demand equation is in your favour.

    • Replies: @notanon
  116. Anon[282] • Disclaimer says:
    @reiner Tor

    I don’t think it’s usually sweet

    It is, but it’s a personal preference and many people take it unsweetened.

    Russians take tea (generally) without milk, as far as I can tell though I welcome correction from actual Russians. In Dostoevsky there are often references to jam but I assume that is served alongside? Russians also have a relatively complex samovar ritual like the English teapot ritual.

    preferably honey

    Unless the tea is very strong I usually find the tastes of the tea and honey conflict. Perhaps honey is different over here (US)?

    • Replies: @Mikhail
    , @Swedish Family
  117. notanon says:

    Eurasianism / Dugin etc

    Pooty has always been popular in “far-right” western circles (at least the ones from countries not adjacent to Russia) because he was seen as a national leader as opposed to the banker’s whores we were ruled by (this was before Trump, Orban, Salvini etc).

    There were other people at the time who seemed to want to make him less popular (for whatever reason) and who also seemed to think he was popular because righties thought he was a white nationalist (no one believed that) so they spread the idea he was a disciple of Dugin to imply he was a specifically Russian kind of multicultist – which didn’t work because they were attacking a straw man.

    so yeah – a lot of non-mainstream people know about Dugin but probably only them.

  118. notanon says:
    @Beckow

    no need, sure

    i think they’ll want to make people fight in coliseums

    • LOL: Rosie
  119. AP says:
    @The Big Red Scary

    It seems to me, however, that the average Ukrainian in North America is at least a standard deviation more nationalistic than the other Slavs in North America.

    Correct. They have the lowest rate of out-marriage and highest language retention. They are also, like Cubans vis a vis other Latinos, the most right-wing of Slavic immigrants.

    The reason is that Galician Ukrainians were extremely organized under Polish occupation, setting up a network of non-government nationalist schools, scouting organizations for kids that provide sailing or rock climbing (and where people often meet future spouses), professional clubs, banks etc. When they came to the West they just brought all that with them and continued it. These instituti0ns, the experience of running them, etc. enabled the culture to survive. New immigrants just plug into the established network.

    Unfortunately many Russians lose their culture fairly quickly, the ones that come into contact with the Ukrainian diaspora marvel at these 3rd or 4th generation Ukrainians still speaking the ancestral language.

    We send our kids to Russia, there is no way they would keep the Russian language in this country. But they speak Ukrainian fine without visiting that country regularly.

    For example, my ethnically Ukrainian wife and her other Orthodox girlfriends (Bulgarians, Serbians, Romanians, Greeks, and so on) used to organize church fundraisers in the form of “Slavic cultural festivals”, to which even Catholic and atheist Croats, Czechs, and Slovaks would show up for a good time.

    I’ve seen Ukrainians socially mixing with Poles. Poles come to Ukrainian dances and vice versa. But even Orthodox Ukrainians tend to avoid Russians, Bulgarians, or Serbs.

    Perhaps my sample is biased, or perhaps it is representative.

    It is fairly accurate.

    • Replies: @Old Jew
  120. AP says:
    @Mr. Hack

    As far as ‘popular’ Russian writers, who even according to some has on occasion access to Putin’s ear, then Dugin must come to mind, and he’s certainly made a career out of promoting Eurasianism.

    I have to agree that almost no one in Russia has heard of Dugin.

    Eurasiansism as a named movement is very marginal, but many Russians see their country as neither fully Europe nor fully Asia, but its own between-civilization. This can be called Eurasianism, and is a rather common sentiment.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  121. bj says:
    @reiner Tor

    UBS collapsed in 2008 and was bailed out by the Federal Reserve Bank. The bailout was conditional on UBS breaking Swiss banking law protecting the identity and affairs of banking clients. UBS, with the collaboration of the Swiss government, released the names and account activity to the IRS and US Treasury officials for US citizens. Swiss sovereignty was breached by this nefarious method. Switzerland is not a vassal of the USD Empire, but its sovereignty exists at the pleasure of the One World Financial Empire.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  122. bj says:
    @Mr. Hack

    Solitary confinement and sleep deprivation are coercive.

    • Replies: @AP
  123. bj says:
    @prime noticer

    The gulag forced labor camp is more likely than serfdom. Which system would you prefer?

  124. bj says:
    @melanf

    Pepe Escobar finds different in his discussion with some Russian thinkers………https://thesaker.is/how-the-new-silk-roads-are-merging-into-greater-eurasia/

  125. AP says:
    @bj

    Solitary confinement and sleep deprivation are coercive.

    Solitary confinement was for a total of 67 days, and not all at once (25 days was the last period). I imagine it is very unpleasant. But it’s a far cry from the Russian media claiming 6 months.

    “Sleep deprivation” OTOH is BS. This claim was based on the fact that someone checks on her every 15 minutes. This is common in psychiatric hospitals and nursing homes (to make sure people are breathing, haven’t harmed themselves, etc.) and doesn’t interfere with sleep after one gets used to it – typically the first night. She is not being waken up every 15 minutes, someone looks at her.

    • Replies: @Beckow
    , @for-the-record
  126. @Mr. Hack

    What’s the matter, are you sure that Russian political and civic leaders aren’t very interested in what goes on within 75% of Russian (Eurasian) land mass? Not to mention knowing more about its powerful Eastern Asian neighbors?

    Eurasianists have never expressed interest in civilised East Asia. They are concerned about North and Central Asian steppe peoples.

    Like Sarmatism or Turanism, most of it is just LARPing.

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
  127. Anonymous[375] • Disclaimer says:
    @bj

    The Bank of International Settlements, which is owned by several major central banks and serves as the bank to these central banks, is based in Switzerland.

  128. utu says:
    @reiner Tor

    we’re perhaps more into coffee than tea

    That’s what I always have assumed about Hungary. I remember coffee in Hungary as very good. For me it seemed more Italian than Viennese. There was this great cafe in Budapest that I am sure I could find if it still exists but I can’t name it now.

    A history of food propagation and penetration of culture by new culinary traditions always was interesting to me. Like for instance since when Italians or Greeks began to use tomatoes or since when Hungarians began to use paprika. Tomatoes and paprika were major tectonic shifts for Italian and Hungarian cuisines, respectively, but it turns out they were relatively recent.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    , @reiner Tor
  129. @Hyperborean

    Like Sarmatism or Turanism, most of it is just LARPing.

    On the other hand, aspiring to the Liberal ‘Europeanism’ of the past or the ‘European Union’ culture of the present can be just as foolish.

    This creation is all the more remarkable in that it has been accomplished at the end of a political evolution that was violently antitraditional, anti-Christian, and passionately “Europeanizing.” Entire generations of Portuguese youth — some of them in good faith, others simply out of snobbery or spiritual drought — sought to drive Portugal from its traditional course and transform it into a “European country.” This book relates the history of these men and the results of their efforts. When Republican and democratic Portugal wanted to “enter” Europe, the moral misery and administrative chaos reached unimaginable proportions — and the presence of Lusitanianism in in European capitals made itself noticed in couplets. For a hundred years Portugal struggled to become a European country, borrowing from the Right and from the Left, imitating Parisian models especially; and much blood flowed in order to put an end to the “specter of reaction,” by which was meant tradition, monarchy, Christianity. And when the liberal ideas had triumphed and Portugal had become a country, at least by constitution, just like other European countries — the only reward was the refrain, “Encore une révolution au Portugal!”

    […]

    It seems that “Europe” can be satisfactorily assimilated only by the elite; more precisely, only a few personalities can allow themselves to assimilate the genius of one or several European cultures, while remaining themselves and continuing to create in the spirit of their own people. (What the Spanish genius meant for Corneille, the Italian for Ronsard or Sa de Miranda, the English for Voltaire and the Romantics, the Greco-Latin for Goethe, and the German for the Anglo-Saxon Romantics — are well-known facts.) But when whole nations try (or are forced) to imitate one or another European government — then they either fail disastrously or produce hybrid, weak, standardized forms, which mean, besides their own sterilization, the death of “Europe” as well.

    And in the end the universalism of this ‘Europe’ or ‘The West’ is what is corroding it the most.

    https://www.counter-currents.com/2016/01/salazars-dictatorship-of-love/

    • Agree: utu
  130. Mikhail says: • Website
    @Anon

    You bring back late afternoon winter memories of hot tea in a tall glass with fruit preserves (strawberry usually), lemon juice and a dash of a cheap sweet red wine.

    Nowadays, green decaf tea cold, brewed with turmeric, ginger, lemon juice and a small dash of sugar.

    The tea with the milk is a Brit thing. Chinese, Brits and Russians have the rep as tea drinkers. Globalization has increased the popularity of coffee.

    • Replies: @utu
  131. Mr. Hack says:
    @AP

    I can’t be a judge about Dugin’s popularity in Russia, but he surely has a ton of video clips on youtube. There are several dedicated to his views about Eurasianism. I’ve never maintained that it’s a popular movement for your average Ivan, but I think that Russian policymakers, including Putin are aware of its focus.

    • Replies: @Beckow
    , @Jayce
  132. Beckow says:
    @AP

    Imagine a student or businessman from the West who goes to Russia (or China). Imagine that they have strong political views and they aggressively network to spread those views. Imagine that they get a local girlfriend, boyfriend or sugar daddy. Imagine that somebody from US is sending them money to live on.

    Suddenly the local police swoops in, arrests that person and files a charge of ‘acting as an unregistered agent of a foreign government‘. The poor student is thrown in jail, held largely incommunicado, constantly observed and often kept in isolation. The Western media would go literally bonkers if that was happening to an American in Moscow.

    After 6 months the beaten down student pleads to ‘failing to register to lobby’. The media declares that she ‘confessed to being an agent‘. That’s what happened here and it was a rather obvious miscarriage of justice. It also established a very dangerous precedent for any American (or Canadian) who goes to Russia or China. What exactly is there to keep other countries from doing the same thing? How many Americans in Moscow bother to ‘register as lobbyist’ before sharing their opinions with the locals?

    The problem with feudal hostage taking was that once everybody started to do it, normal life became impossible. All things slowly shut down and we had a few hundred years of Dark Ages. And arguing that ‘law is a law‘ is way off in this case – this is not what happens in a free society.

    • Agree: for-the-record, Lowe
    • Replies: @AP
  133. Beckow says:
    @Mr. Hack

    …Russian policymakers, including Putin are aware of its focus

    I am aware of Rosecrucians, and Putin might be too. (So we have that in common, accident? what do you think? what would sergeant Strzok think?)

    Awareness is the lowest form of interaction. One more time: Kremlin is not – and never has been – particularly influenced by ‘Euroasianism‘. It is a chimera invented by morons in Western institutions with a bit too much time on their hands.

  134. utu says:
    @Mikhail

    Globalization has increased the popularity of coffee.

    No, it was affluence and lowering cost of production of coffee. Coffee is more expensive. Coffee was drunk in Europe before tea.

  135. Jayce says:
    @Mr. Hack

    Pretty sure even Dugin himself realizes by now his target demographic is 20 year old American Twitter “trads” with handles like ride_tehtiger69 and Russophobic journalists researching for hit pieces.

    • Replies: @Jaakko Raipala
  136. AP says:
    @Beckow

    Imagine a student or businessman from the West who goes to Russia (or China). Imagine that they have strong political views and they aggressively network to spread those views. Imagine that they get a local girlfriend, boyfriend or sugar daddy. Imagine that somebody from US is sending them money to live on.

    You forgot two key facts:

    In her apartment they found documents indicating that she was trying to join FSB, and she was photographed having a meal with a Russian diplomat known for being a spy.

    This does not make her a real spy of course, but it makes her more than just some enthusiastic student advocating for her country. I guess an analogy might be a would-be Jihadist who never harmed anyone and never became one, but got caught while clumsily trying and failing to connect with them.

    The poor student is thrown in jail, held largely incommunicado, constantly observed and often kept in isolation. The Western media would go literally bonkers if that was happening to an American in Moscow.

    Russia has done much, much worse to the Ukrainian filmmaker Sentsov.

    It’s typical for the Russian state – do something horrible, then falsely accuse others of doing the same.

    How many Americans in Moscow bother to ‘register as lobbyist’ before sharing their opinions with the locals?

    Again, you forget the two key facts I mentioned. She wasn’t simply sharing opinions.

    However I suspect that the Russians may do what they falsely claim the Americans did – grab some poor American who really did nothing but share his opinions, and incarcerate him as a spy. Given the clumsiness of the Russian government, I wouldn’t be surprised if the victim were actually a Russophile.

    • Replies: @Beckow
    , @Mikhail
    , @Beckow
  137. @Jayce

    Dugin showed up to hold a speech a few years ago in Helsinki. I tried to go to watch him out of curiosity but I got turned back when the lecture hall turned out to be full.

    Full of journalists. Journalists from several countries. Cameras everywhere. No room for ordinary people.

    Afterwards we got a bunch of articles about “Putin’s right-hand man”, “the new Rasputin whispering in new Tsar’s ear”, “Russian thought leader who called for the genocide of Ukrainians” and so on.

    Despite the huge attention he gets here, I’ve yet to meet a Russian who takes Dugin seriously. It seems like he exists only to play a James Bond supervillain in the Western media.

  138. Svigor says:
    @melanf

    Everyone’s capable of building proper fortifications, but historically speaking it was a pretty rare thing, largely confined to Europe (west of the Danube), the Levant, and parts of South Asia. Everywhere else the fortifications were shit.

    A “fortified city” is, ipso facto, no great shakes. Walled cities, in general, were shit. The Chinese built tons of them (rammed earth, but still walled cities), and we see what they were worth. Castles were the thing, not “fortified cities.” A wall around a city is where proper pre-modern urban fortifications start, not end.

    The Mongols were middling at siege. If it came down to their abilities at siege warfare, they’d be an historical footnote. Which is why they never got anywhere at conquering places with good fortifications.

    Yes, in Europe RAID was all they did. At the far frontier in Hungary and Poland. No conquering. They held jack shit other than Russia, a backwater with nothing more than wooden fortifications, lol.

    “If the Mongols bla bla bla” if wishes were horses, lice-ridden beggars would ride.

    The Mongols were jumped-up bandits, end of story.

    • Replies: @melanf
  139. Beckow says:
    @AP

    …she was trying to join FSB, and she was photographed having a meal with a Russian diplomat known for being a spy…

    We all have photos with lots of people – it literally means nothing. I once took a picture with Lama (he got in the elevator, true story, very short guy), should I avoid China? Are you suggesting that any American in Moscow who has a photo with McFaul or Nuland can be accused of ‘spying‘. Or that anyone who applied to work for State Dept, CIA, military, etc… can be labeled a ‘spy’? Or thought about applying? This is madness and it makes normal human interactions across borders potentially very risky. This woman is not a ‘spy’, so don’t make up things and add irrelevant ‘two key facts‘ that are neither factual nor key to her case.

    She wasn’t simply sharing opinions.

    Ok, tell us what else she did. Specifically. And taking pictures or having misguided career dreams doesn’t count. What is it that she did other than talk and share her opinions? How is she any different from thousands of students who go to another country and engage in often contentious political discussions? Or is it prohibited to anyone who happens to be a ‘Russian’?

    You seem to have no concept of what freedom of speech is, or what freedom is in general.

    • Replies: @AP
  140. AP says:
    @Beckow

    We all have photos with lots of people – it literally means nothing. I once took a picture with Lama (he got in the elevator, true story, very short guy), should I avoid China?

    I just wrote that she was photographed having a meal with the diplomat who was a known spy. My words: “she was photographed having a meal with a Russian diplomat known for being a spy”

    She was not photographed simply being in the same location as him. She was meeting him.

    Is it that hard for you to be honest about something?

    This woman is not a ‘spy’, so don’t make up things and add irrelevant ‘two key facts‘ that are neither factual nor key to her case.

    You just made up that she was simply photographed at the same place as someone when instead she was actually meeting him.

    The facts that she was having dinner with a diplomat who was a known spy and that she was trying to apply to join the FSB (a spy agency) were not irrelevant to a spy case.

    So to repeat – they found papers in her apartment indicated she was applying to join the FSB. And she was caught (with photo evidence) having a meeting with a Russian diplomat who is known to be a spy. And she was putting in a lot of efforts to network with influential people; in her apartment they found some charts she made of whom she should get to know. Each of those facts by itself means little, but all of them put together indicate that she was probably up to no good. She seems to have been too clumsy to have been a real spy, but she was trying.

    How is she any different from thousands of students who go to another country and engage in often contentious political discussions?

    Presumably thousands of those other students don’t meet with diplomats from their countries who are known spies and don’t try to apply to their country’s intelligence agencies. Nor do they work out detailed plans about how to befriend as many influential people as they can. She did all those things. She is not like those thousands of other students and if you were honest you wouldn’t pretend she was. But as we have seen, you are incapable of honesty.

    You seem to have no concept of what freedom of speech is,

    She did things that went beyond speech.

    • Replies: @Beckow
  141. melanf says:
    @Mr. Hack

    And the CIS, CES and EAEU (Eurasian Economic Union) have ‘zero influence’ on Russia’s economic and political projections into the future?

    These are organizations similar to British Commonwealth of Nations or French Community , and created for similar purposes. These organizations (CIS, CES and EAEU) have nothing to do with the mythical”Eurasianist movement”.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  142. melanf says:
    @AP

    Well the Saker loves Eurasia:

    Well the Saker completely unknown to 99.99999% of the population of Russia.
    Saker’s ideas (for example, about Russia’s special proximity to the Islamic world), if they became known in Russia, would cause hysterical laughter in the Russian population.

    • Agree: AP
    • Replies: @Dmitry
  143. Seraphim says:
    @Mr. Hack

    Russian ‘nationalism’ is not too much burdened with the Western delusions of the ‘white man’s burden’ and the supposed ‘anti-white-ism’ of the ‘lice-ridden’ Mongols, Tartars, Turks.

    Russia was an Empire (and in fact still is) in its own right and it operated in the framework of state reason (geo-political at that). The template of Russia’s policy was Orthodoxy (a fact lost on the de-Christianized ‘Europe’, which cannot wrap its mind that Russia and not “Europe” – the so-called ‘Roman Empire of German nation” – is the only legitimate heir of the Roman-“Byzantine” Empire). Her eastward expansion was in the nature of things. Russia substituted herself to the ‘Empire of the steppes’ (of which the Mongolian Empire was a only a stage), with which she had old relations, both economic and political from time immemorial. It was a transfer of sovereignty, devoid of the racial undertones so characteristic of ‘European’ expansionism. The non-Russians from “Asia”, supposedly oppressed by Russian ‘colonialism’, remained loyal to Russia in circumstances when they could have free themselves from that oppression.

    Siberia is the real Russia’s ‘Lebensraum’ with its wealth of resources, out of reach for the ‘Merchant Adventurers cum Pirates’ who are seething with rage that they have been excluded from the goodies.
    ‘Eurasianism’ was just a formula to make the West understand that Russia has other interests than stifling the ‘values’ of ‘democracy, free-speach, rule of law’ and all other poncifs of the ‘enlightened Europe’ propaganda. That Russians are not so besotted with European ‘values’ as Europe likes to believe and that they would not (to quote a Romanian proverb) ‘give the sparrow in their hand for the crow on the fence’.

    Now, since I have slided into Romanian examples, I find worth reminding an illustrative one. The son of Prince Demetrius Cantemir, Antiochus, who was a very cultured man like his father, was a (Russian) diplomat in France, where he befriended the ‘great’ Voltaire. Voltaire, although being a ‘free spirit’, thought naught of ingratiating himself with the Prince by flattering him for his literary achievements, attributing them to his ‘Greek’ ancestry. The young Prince was flabbergasted. ‘But’, he retorted, ‘I have nothing to do with the Greeks. We descend from Tamerlane’, to which the confused Voltaire retorted (I make it up:-)) “But, my Prince, how could I have thought that your culture can be attributed to those ‘lice-ridden’ barbarians, and not to the Greeks who were the… fill the dots).

    The Cantemir family was indeed of Tartar origin, which did not prevent Prince Demetrius being a staunch Orthodox (asking for the demise of the ‘runt’ Ottoman Empire) and the most articulate apologist for the Russian Empire and of its mission in the world (along with another Moldovan boyar and erudite, Nicholas Milescu ‘Spathary’, who was the first Ambassador sent to China by Tsar Alexey with the stated mission to ‘find a shorter way for commerce’ and settle border disputes between Russians and Chinese (and continued after the death of Tsar Alexey in 1676 by Peter).
    The ‘West’ cannot stomach (and indeed understand) the natural Russo-Chinese convergence which unfolds under our very eyes, and stupidly entertain the wet dream of the future Russo-Chinese clash. You will have a hard time to find in the Western Mass Media mentions of the Shanghai Cooperation Organization, no matter that it approaches its 20th anniversary of outstanding achievements in fostering this convergence.

    People stuck into the Eurocentric bubble, who are still uncertain where Harbin is, cannot fathom the depth and width of Russo-Chinese convergence and believe that it can stop it by following the advises of Mackinder: “Who rules East Europe commands the Heartland (Russia); who rules the Heartland commands the World-Island; who rules the World-Island commands the world” and Zbigniew Brzezinski: “Without Ukraine, Russia ceases to be a Eurasian empire.” There is little doubt in my mind (and not only) that in Brzezinski’s mind ‘Ukraine’ was to be part of a Greater (Khazaro) Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth (rebranded as the ‘Intermarium – “Międzymorze” – /Trimarium/Visegrad, the recent quite laughable dream of the Ukrainian pseudo-far right “Ethnofuturistic” ‘Third-Way’ National Corps, for which “whites” should stick together!”). Intermarium/Visegrad is an attempt to reviving the obsolete “Mitteleuropa/Mittropa”, the actual model of the ‘European Union’ (if not the Zionist “League of East European States”).

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  144. Anonymous[339] • Disclaimer says:

    As an American the Huawei thing enrages me. Such a brazen, lawless, destructive, potentially dangerous gesture…for what? To satisfy the egos and tribal loyalties of a bunch of deep-state neocon hacks?

  145. melanf says:
    @Svigor

    Everyone’s capable of building proper fortifications, but historically speaking it was a pretty rare thing, largely confined to Europe (west of the Danube), the Levant, and parts of South Asia. Everywhere else the fortifications were shit.

    In the far East / Central Asia, there were enough stone fortresses that the Mongols captured after months of sieges.
    In Eastern Europe, very small Mongol forces captured many fortified cities – these cities were captured in a few days or even hours (post 105 of this discussion).
    If the main Mongol forces invaded Europe and the Mongols began a systematic siege of European fortresses (as the Mongols besieged Khorezm or Urgench) – even the most powerful European fortresses of that era would be destroyed

    Castles were the thing, not “fortified cities.”

    The vast majority of castles of that era-weak fortifications with several dozen soldiers, suitable for local feudal strife. For the Mongols such castles would be easy prey

    At the far frontier in Hungary and Poland. No conquering. They held jack shit other than Russia, a backwater with nothing more than wooden fortifications, lol.

    Generally speaking, the Mongols conquered only Russian principalities lying on the border of the steppe. The Russian principalities which were far away from the steppe completely escaped the power of the Mongols (the Principality of Smolensk), or were subordinate to the Mongols purely nominal (Novgorod). But for the principalities lying on the border of the steppe there was no chance to avoid the power of the Mongols – even if the Russian cities had stone fortifications.

    • Replies: @Anon
  146. Mikhail says: • Website
    @AP

    Not like Alexandra Chalupa, getting dirt from the Kiev regime to pass onto the DNC, which paid her quite well. I gather she isn’t registered as a lobbyist – even though she has interacted with a foreign government to find compromising material to use against a US presidential candidate.

    As for Sentsov, there’s this comparison:

    https://www.google.com/search?source=hp&ei=daAUXKKyBq3p_QbDqoGgDQ&q=RIA+Novosti+journalist+ukraine&btnK=Google+Search&oq=RIA+Novosti+journalist+ukraine&gs_l=psy-ab.3..33i22i29i30l2.1778.11041..13150…0.0..0.533.2514.28j3-1j0j1……0….1..gws-wiz…..0..0j0i131j33i160.h3Dee9Hasmg

    Never mind the numerous others in Kiev regime controlled Ukraine, who’ve been beaten, killed and imprisoned for having pro-Russian views.

    You do have a point concerning the sometimes clumsiness of Russian government supported sources, who aren’t always the best go to options. From a pro-Russian perspective, blasting Liz Wahl, without criticizing who hired her at RT, is a half assed overview. She got paid tens of thousands from that station, which has sought freebie work from some talent wise deserving others.

  147. Dmitry says:
    @melanf

    Saker is a Swiss guy. From his writing, I guess he is unemployed and has autism spectrum disorder.

    His views are common for “contrarian” people in the Western media. Russia and Islam are both opposition to mainstream leadership, where he lives. So in his mind, to combine two together probably is coherent.

  148. Dmitry says:
    @reiner Tor

    Division of tea countries and coffee countries was very real, but now situation changes

    Some famous traditional coffee countries:
    Hungary,
    Italy,
    Austria,
    Spain,
    France,

    Some famous traditional tea countries:
    Russia,
    UK,
    Japan,
    China

    However, nowadays a lot of the tea countries are climbing into coffee.

    Japan – coffee becomes very fashionable from the 1960s years.
    UK – coffee becomes fashionable from the 1970s (?)
    Russia – coffee starts progressively to be fashionable from the 1990s (although already back in the USSR, people were dreaming about obtaining real coffee beans – while only powder coffee was actually available)

  149. Dmitry says:
    @utu

    In Austria, the difference is the coffee (at least in the supermarkets) which has fig flavouring added to it…

    I remember first time visiting a supermarket in Austria as a child, and we had to buy everywhere Julius Meinl (I just looked it up in the search engine, but this was the brand ) fig coffee to take home…

    (The best thing of Austria in those days was you could buy “Ritter Sport” chocolate in a hundred different flavours – this was years ago, before “Ritter Sport” was exported around the world, and nowadays it’s not even interesting when you can buy it everywhere)

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  150. Dmitry says:
    @Felix Keverich

    It’s the reason he was in Canada – Canada was an escape from retribution or criminal prosecution, after the war.

    The question is whether Canada provided a special program to give asylum for those guys, and why would the Canadian state want to import them to their country? (It’s not like the high quality human capital from Germany, that America imported in Operation Paperclip).

    Or alternatively, did they just get into Canada without state approval, due to easy immigration requirements relative to America?

  151. Mr. Hack says:
    @Seraphim

    Her eastward expansion was in the nature of things. Russia substituted herself to the ‘Empire of the steppes’ (of which the Mongolian Empire was a only a stage), with which she had old relations, both economic and political from time immemorial. It was a transfer of sovereignty, devoid of the racial undertones so characteristic of ‘European’ expansionism. The non-Russians from “Asia”, supposedly oppressed by Russian ‘colonialism’, remained loyal to Russia in circumstances when they could have free themselves from that oppression.

    I think that we’re pretty much in agreement then that ‘Eurasianism’ as a concept that helps to explain Russian interests in all of its manifestations of imperialism to the east is very much a real concept and not something that is only within the purview of a few unemployed grant eaters, ‘who have too much time on their hands’ as has been bandied around within this thread by several commenters?

    • Replies: @melanf
  152. Mr. Hack says:
    @melanf

    These are organizations similar to British Commonwealth of Nations or French Community , and created for similar purposes. These organizations (CIS, CES and EAEU) have nothing to do with the mythical”Eurasianist movement”.

    Nonsense. These organizations are all clear manifestations of Russia’s continued imperial desire to dominate the vast Eurasian landmass, and therefore fit perfectly within the concept of Russian Eurasianism.

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
  153. Mr. Hack says:
    @Dmitry

    Unfortunately, I don’t remember the good old days of Ritter Sports chocolates, but do very much enjoy consuming the stuff produced and sold on the display shelves of my local grocer. ‘A hundred different flavors’ you say? I’m captivated, do tell me more?…

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  154. melanf says:
    @Mr. Hack

    I think that we’re pretty much in agreement then that ‘Eurasianism’ as a concept that helps to explain Russian interests in all of its manifestations of imperialism to the east is very much a real concept and not something that is only within the purview of a few unemployed grant eaters

    Without any doubt ‘ Eurasianism’ (as a political movement, or mass ideology) is something that exist only within the purview of a few unemployed (or rarher employed) grant eaters.
    As readers of this discussion can easily see, you could not give any evidence of the existence of the” Eurasianist movement ” in Russia. You will not be able to give such evidence in the further discussion, because the “Eurasian movement” is a propaganda myth created out of emptiness.

    Тhese are organizations similar to British Commonwealth of Nations or French Community , and created for similar purposes. These organizations (CIS, CES and EAEU) have nothing to do with the mythical”Eurasianist movement”.

    These organizations are all clear manifestations of Russia’s continued imperial desire to dominate the vast Eurasian landmass, and therefore fit perfectly within the concept of Russian Eurasianism.

    Any evidence other than your conviction?

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  155. Mr. Hack says:
    @melanf

    Any evidence other than your conviction?

    Yes:

    These organizations [CIS, CES and EAEU] are all clear manifestations of Russia’s continued imperial desire to dominate the vast Eurasian landmass, and therefore fit perfectly within the concept of Russian Eurasianism.

    I never have said that Russian Eurasianism is a ‘political movement, or mass ideology’ but have only suggested that it’s a way of formulating or discussing:

    Russia’s continued imperial desire to dominate the vast Eurasian landmass

    • Replies: @melanf
  156. melanf says:
    @Mr. Hack

    Any evidence other than your conviction?

    Yes:

    These organizations [CIS, CES and EAEU] are all clear manifestations of Russia’s continued imperial desire to dominate the vast Eurasian landmass, and therefore fit perfectly within the concept of Russian Eurasianism.

    Oh, so this is evidence? Great.
    “Any evidence (other than your conviction) that Napoleon was a woman?”
    “Yes:
    Napoleon was woman!”

    ___________________________________________________________________________________
    quote 1 Mr. Hack

    The two main political movements within 20th century Russia, outside of communism, have been nationalism and Eurasianism,

    quote 2 Mr. Hack

    I never have said that Russian Eurasianism is a ‘political movement’

    ___________________________________________________________________________________

    it’s a way of formulating or discussing:
    Russia’s continued imperial desire to dominate the vast Eurasian landmass

    All States on Earth (including Liechtenstein and Luxembourg) have an imperial desire to dominate the vast Eurasian (or America or Africa) landmass

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  157. Dmitry says:
    @Mr. Hack

    Ritter Sport is sold all over the world now, so this is boring for modern youth…

    But from my childhood memory of the first vacation in Austria many many years ago.

    Austrian supermarket in those days, seemed like half of it was Ritter Sport, and the other half was fig flavour coffee with that Julius Meinl logo.

    As children, we thought discovering Ritter Sport was the greatest thing in history. While the adults had the same emotion about the shelves of Julius Meinl coffee.

    I was staying in Austria in subsequent years, and know that Austrian supermarkets actually have things other than just Ritter Sport and Julius Meinl… for example, you can also buy Mozartkugel 🙂

  158. @Mr. Hack

    These organizations are all clear manifestations of Russia’s continued imperial desire to dominate the vast Eurasian landmass, and therefore fit perfectly within the concept of Russian Eurasianism.

    CIS, CSTO, EAEU are merely a poor man’s version of their corresponding ‘Western’ counterparts.

    But I’ll give them credit for their flags – like something out of a mecha anime.

    (By the way, what happened to Spain? They ran out of space?)

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    , @Hyperborean
  159. Mr. Hack says:
    @melanf

    In my original statement, I was too loose in defining Eurasianism as a ‘political movement’. I have since tightened up my definition as a way to help define it as ‘Russia’s continued imperial desire to dominate the vast Eurasian landmass’, in effect a philosophy of political ideas, not something wider influencing a ‘political movement’ at the ground level. Of course it doesn’t represent itself as something where the masses of Russians clamor for greater opportunities to settle into Siberia or the Far East, but rather a prism to help influence Russian politics and culture from a top down approach. I still maintain that organizations as the CIS, CES and EAEU are outward manifestations of Russian imperial (Eurasian) policy.

    • Replies: @Beckow
  160. Mr. Hack says:
    @Dmitry

    What of the ‘100 flavors’ of Ritter Sports that you mention above?

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
  161. Mr. Hack says:
    @Hyperborean

    Place a trident in the center of the second flag, and you really have something cool. 🙂

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
  162. @Mr. Hack

    What of the ’100 flavors’ of Ritter Sports that you mention above?

    I think it is a bit hyperbolic, probably closer to 20 or 30, at least according to my experience.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  163. Beckow says:
    @AP

    Let me repeat, you have no concept of freedom of speech, or what simple freedom is. That makes any discussion with you rather pointless.

    Read what you said: a collection of irrelevancies and outright non-sequiturs. Guess what, lots of people take pictures eating with suspicious diplomats, how is one to know? The fact that she was ‘photographed’ says that she wasn’t hiding – any ‘spy’ would not meet in public. But I am sure you will just say, well ‘she was clumsy‘. Nonsense, real life is complex, most people do things that can be construed as ‘suspicious’ by your standard.

    …all of them put together indicate that she was probably up to no good. She seems to have been too clumsy to have been a real spy, but she was trying.

    Up to no good? Wow, off to jail! At any moment literally thousands of foreigners around the world could be picked up for ‘probably up to no good‘ standard, having meals with someone who is tracked, trying to meet someone significant, or just trying to live in a foreign country without a good understanding of local customs.

    If others reciprocate – I hope not – this is a downward spiral into mutual endless hostage taking. Any US student or businessman who has a lunch with a US diplomat in Moscow or Beijing can be picked up, they can search all his/her stuff and find almost anything that the likes of you would construe as ‘up to no good‘: a phone number of a government employee, a map, or a picture of someone the government doesn’t like. And that is how freedom is restricted over time, how free exchange of often offensive views becomes too risky, and how you end up with a real authoritarian nightmare.

    • Replies: @AP
  164. @Mr. Hack

    Place a trident in the center of the second flag, and you really have something cool. 🙂

    I actually agree with this. The tryzub is very cool, although when I look at it I keep thinking of it as a bird.

  165. Dmitry says:
    @Dmitry

    and the other half was fig flavour coffee with that Julius Meinl logo.

    I looked in the search engine now to try to find that fig flavour coffee from there, and it seems to not exist.

    I guess a creation of childhood imagination.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    , @utu
  166. Dmitry says:
    @Hyperborean

    It felt like some impossible number of flavours, so you could never buy all of them.

  167. Mr. Hack says:
    @Dmitry

    Even 20 or 30 is a colossal number. Now you get the ubiquitous hazelnut (which I adore) and maybe a dark or milk chocolate choice. What were the ones that you remember? Wafel, marmalade infused, different nut varieties, coconut, caramel? …

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  168. Dmitry says:
    @Mr. Hack

    This is many many years ago (really a long time ago)… before they were sold everywhere in the world and lost their legendary status.

    They seemed to have every kind of imaginable flavour back in those years.

    Nowadays, they appear to have less flavours? and they don’t taste as good as in childhood memory.

    People still have pretty impressive collections though

  169. Beckow says:
    @Mr. Hack

    …Russia’s continued imperial desire to dominate the vast Eurasian landmass

    Why is it ‘imperial‘? It is their land, part of their country, and has been for hundreds of years. Would you say the same thing about Canada, US, Australia, Brazil – do all of them have an ‘imperial’ desire to dominate their own countries?

    I think Western dislike (often hatred) comes out of the inability to accept Russians’ great geographic luck, able to expand all the way to Pacific. Similar to what Anglos and Hispanics managed to do in America and Australia. One doesn’t hear silly ‘imperial’ terminology about that successful Western expansion, except from a few marginal progressives. So why do you constantly refer to Russia’s territory as ‘imperial domination’?

    It is a fundamental interest of Europe (and Europeans in general) to hold on to these territories. Without them our European civilisation will eventually be overrun. Russia is the best buffer in the east one could dream off: mostly quiet, minding its own business, open to Europe when Europe reciprocates. Any alternative would be much worse, in some cases catastrophic: imagine Chinese all the way to Urals, larger and assertive Turkish or Islamic control there, tens of millions migrants from all over Asia marching to Europe if Russia wasn’t there as a buffer.

    You are free to label it as ‘Euroasianism‘, but don’t allow petty hatreds and rivalries to undermine what is one of the last things working for Europe. The ones in the West who are so ceaselessly trying to destroy or weaken Russia don’t like this eastern buffer and they also don’t have the best interests of European civilisation in mind.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    , @AP
  170. @utu

    There was this great cafe in Budapest

    When was this? The two arguably most famous cafes (Centrál Kávéház and New York Kávéház) were closed after the war and stayed so until roughly 20 years ago. There’s Gerbeaux (which is more of a candy store but many people just drink coffee there; during communism it was called Vörösmarty after a poet, because it was on Vörösmarty square; arguably the most famous of the places still open during communism), then there’s Művész (Artist; also known as Little Gerbeaux), Hadik, Zsolnay, Schódl, Múzeum Café, and a few others.

    • Replies: @AP
    , @utu
    , @Old Jew
  171. Dmitry says:
    @Dmitry

    Ritter Sport is sold all over the world now, so this is boring for modern youth…

    It started mass selling in Russia from 2004. In America even later I guess?

    You can’t describe to modern children who can buy it everywhere now, how cool Ritter Sport was in 2001.

  172. Beckow says:
    @AP

    …Given the clumsiness of the Russian government, I wouldn’t be surprised if the victim were actually a Russophile

    Butina is an Americophile, she loves the West, she moved there. I wouldn’t be surprised if most people caught up in this madness are actually huge fans of what ends up destroying them. That’s the way the cookie crumbles, an outright Russophobe or an equivalent from Russia will not travel to what they dislike.

    So is West also ‘clumsy’?

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    , @AP
  173. Dmitry says:
    @Beckow

    It’s typical. The enemies you should worry about, are ones who have their paperwork managed professionally. But those are the same people, who can avoid this trouble (they have lawyers to ensure they don’t technically break immigration laws)*

    Butina’s paperwork was an amateur comedy, and she was trying to lobbying while using a student visa. Her “crime” was a result of being quite harmless and unprofessional (she was doing an amateurish project with some connections through her sugardaddy Torshin).

    * You can see the situation with Israel, where they deport thousands of Ukrainians (and actually tourists from Russia and Belarus as well) every year, who include ordinary tourists who want to go on holiday there, and many of them even politically support Israel before the experience. At the same time, thousands of professional anti-Israel NGO workers can enter Israel effortlessly, as they have professionally managed documentation, and even lawyers hired by NGOs to appeal in the Supreme Court to prevent their deportation, and all kinds of arranged scholarships and funding available to fund their time there.

    So the enemies of the country have effortless access to it, while tourists are being mass deported.

    • Replies: @AP
  174. AP says:
    @Beckow

    Let me repeat, you have no concept of freedom of speech

    The repeated words of a proven liar. Your brazenness is impressive, though – you were caught red-handed and just keep lying.

    Your other trick is to accuse others of your own faults.

    Once again – Butina was prosecuted not for words but for actions – in additon to pushing her POV (which is not illegal) she was also meeting a known spy and also applying to become a spy. These are actions. If you do not know the difference between these actions and words than you do not understand what “freedom of speech” is.

    It is understandable. As a Slovak Sovok, such a concept is alien to you. This probably explains why honesty a weird idea for you also.

    a collection of irrelevancies

    For you it is irrelevant that someone accused of working as a foreign intelligence agent was caught meeting personally with a known spy and had documents showing an attempt to apply for work as a spy. I suppose according to you, nothing would be relevant.

    The fact that she was ‘photographed’ says that she wasn’t hiding – any ‘spy’ would not meet in public.

    She may have made a dumb mistake or she may have counted on such logic as a cover. The best shoplifters aren’t the ones who sneak around attracting suspicion but who are calm and brazen.

    Fact is she met a known spy for dinner. And let me remind you and other readers – you lied about this and claimed they just happend to be photographed in the same place together, like in an elevator. 🙂

    At any moment literally thousands of foreigners around the world could be picked up for ‘probably up to no good‘ standard, having meals with someone who is tracked

    I’ve been to many foreign countries many times, but I have never met with American spies nor have I ever applied to work for the CIA or FBI. This is true of the overwhleming majority of international visitors and residents. It reflects your dishonesty to compare her situation to that of thousands of other visitors.

    Butina did both of those things. That’s why she, and not thousands others, was arrested.

    I understand that you are dishonest and arguing in bad faith, I am responding for other readers.

    Any US student or businessman who has a lunch with a US diplomat in Moscow or Beijing

    One who has been identified as a spy? In that case a responsible government would keep an eye on him, especially if he is also engaging in propaganda and if they find documents indicating he is applying to work for the CIA. Put all three together and you have a good case. As I wrote, each of these things alone (well, perhaps the last one) don’t mean much but they add up to something malicious. Many Russians advocate for their country while in the USA. They are not arrested nor should they be. Maybe this spy had dinner with many Russians. They also aren’t arrested. In Butina’s case, you have a foreigner with : detailed plans to meet influential people and in order to try to influence them (she created spreadsheets and all); photo evidence of her meeting a known Rusisan spy; application material for joining FSB. America is rather generous – apparently doing all of this is still acceptable, as long as one at least openly registers as an agent for a foreign governent. But she failed to do that.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    , @for-the-record
  175. AP says:
    @Beckow

    I wouldn’t be surprised if most people caught up in this madness are actually huge fans of what ends up destroying them

    I heard that not all American spies who ended up living in the USSR actually liked it all that much.

    My take is that she was pro-American but also pro-Russian and wanted to work very hard to bring the two countries together, by trying to meet with and convince people of influence. At some point she decided that working with FSB would facilitate that, which crossed a line from an individual expressing oneself to working with a foreign government. She was not a professional and got caught. I doubt she did much if any harm, she should be released and deported.

    The idea that she was totally innocent, or that this is nothing more than a free speech issue, is absurd.

    If someone who decides he wants to be a Jihadist starts to propagate Jihadism, tries to join a Jihadist organization and manages to meet a known Jihadist operative for dinner, but gets caught before he actually joins them and harms anyone, do you think his prosecution and deportation are unjust and a violation of free speech?

    • Replies: @Beckow
  176. AP says:
    @reiner Tor

    Reiner, which is the best and most impressive public bath in Budapest? I may be going there in the summer.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
  177. Mr. Hack says:
    @Beckow

    Actually, its the land of these indigenous peoples (and many more):

    Turkic: Sakha
    Eskimo–Aleut: Aleuts, Siberian Yupiks (Yuits)
    Chukotko-Kamchatkan: Chukchi, Koryaks, Alutors, Kereks, Itelmens
    Tungusic: Evenks, Evens, Nanais, Orochs, Ul’ch, Udegey, Orok, Manchus
    Isolate: Koreans, Yukaghirs, Nivkhs, Ain

    The fact that most of these people are content to live within a Russian civilization space is part and parcel of Eurasian studies. Nobody ever said that the US is not an imperialistic state. Whether or not Russian domination is better than Chinese in these areas is up for debate. Certainly natives of the Russian far east have exhibited contradictory natures at one and the same time: advocating for more autonomy from the center, and at the same time complaining that they’re being ignored and suffering from financial neglect (you can’t have it both ways?). Here’s an interesting clip that shows an envious Slavic bunch shopping in nearby China:

    • Replies: @Beckow
  178. AP says:
    @Dmitry

    It’s typical. The enemies you should worry about, are ones who have their paperwork managed professionally. But those are the same people, who can avoid this trouble (they have lawyers to ensure they don’t technically break immigration laws)*

    Butina’s paperwork was an amateur comedy, and she was trying to lobbying while using a student visa. Her “crime” was a result of being quite harmless and unprofessional (she was doing an amateurish project with some connections through her sugardaddy Torshin).

    Agree with first paragraph.

    Being a dumb amateur and making dumb mistakes does not absolve one of criminality. In her case it indicates that she was fairly harmless and not a threat, so she should not be treated harshly. But it doesn’t make what she did, not a crime.

  179. Dmitry says:
    @AP

    She was a person with no training, or even any evidence of professional English lessons (she has trouble speaking English).

    According to the Americans, she was communicating all her plans with her sugardaddy through Twitter. How is that for “spy”?

    She is like the opposite of Anna Chapman.

    Sugardaddy itself is a pretty “rogue” eccentric guy anyway, and there’s no secrecy about their relationship (see how she posts about him on instagram).

    • Replies: @AP
  180. AP says:
    @Beckow

    Would you say the same thing about Canada, US, Australia, Brazil – do all of them have an ‘imperial’ desire to dominate their own countries

    Brazil was officially an Empire from 1822 to 1889:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empire_of_Brazil

    Canada, USA, and Australia were parts of the British Empire. Americans have often seen something imperial about their nation. New York is called the Empire State for a reason.

  181. AP says:
    @Dmitry

    I agree that she was an amateur. That doesn’t make her innocent of wrongdoing.

  182. Parbes says:
    @Svigor

    STFU and get lost you useless piece of wannabe-Nazi trailer trash. Only a completely ignorant, utter fool would write something like “the Mongols were looking for Talmudic justifications” in their conquests. Writing an idiocy like that disqualifies you from any debate (not that you’re mentally up to engaging in any half-serious “debate” about history, anyway). And calling some of the most successful and capable warrior-conquerors in history “lice-infested vermin”?? Wow, talk about blithering imbecility! Who the hell cares if Mongols had “lice” or not, idiot? The important thing is not the personal hygiene level of thirteenth-century Mongol soldiers; it’s their military and historical accomplishments. (And how many of their coeval adversaries do you think were up to modern standards of personal hygiene? Why, medieval Europe even had the Black Death that killed a third of the entire population, which spread due to conditions of filth and squalor, you retard – to say nothing of the contemporary Asia, Middle East etc.).

    Pig-ignorant deplorable “patriotard” bigots of your ilk, are a large part of what’s wrong with Western society today – as well as being the bane of the Internet. You are literally Internet pollution. Characters like you should be banned from posting anything on any serious Internet forum; and only allowed to post your crap on specially-designated websites for substandard cretins.

    • Replies: @Seraphim
  183. @Anon

    In Dostoevsky there are often references to jam but I assume that is served alongside?

    I haven’t read Dostoyevsky in the original Russian, but Constance Garnett’s translations are known for anglifying the great man’s prose, including rendering varenye (a whole-fruit preserve) as jam. In Ukraine, if you come down with a cold, women serve you tea of raspberry varenye and lemon slices.

  184. @Dmitry

    I too was overjoyed to acquire Ritter Sport as a child in Germany rather than Austria).

    I don’t eat sweets anymore, but Ritter Sport remains the best chocolate bar I’ve tasted and that’s not just nostalgia.

    Of course you are correct when you say that it is much less interesting when you can buy it anywhere.

    Julius Meinl now has branded cafes in America as well.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  185. Matra says:
    @Dmitry

    Austrian supermarket in those days, seemed like half of it was Ritter Sport, and the other half was fig flavour coffee with that Julius Meinl logo

    When I was in Vienna earlier this year Heindl was dominant in the shops. I was mostly in tourist areas so it may be different in places that the locals shop in.

    Like with spicy food and unbalanced American IPAs coffee making inroads in tea countries suggests a decline in appreciation for subtlety.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  186. Truly amazing how the world continues to capitulate to its grand master:

    Russia’s Rosneft Quits Iran, $30B Of Potential Joint Investments

    Russia’s largest oil producer Rosneft has decided to quit Iran and the possibility of US$30 billion worth of joint Russian-Iranian investments in oil and gas projects in the Islamic Republic, Russian business daily Vedomosti reports, quoting three sources close to Rosneft’s top management.

    In November last year, Rosneft and the National Iranian Oil Company (NIOC) signed a road map for strategic cooperation in oil and gas in Iran—cooperation which Rosneft’s chief executive Igor Sechin said would involve a total of US$30 billion of investments. At the time, Russian media quoted Sechin as saying that the parties could soon sign several binding agreements, and the total production from those projects could be up to 55 million tons of oil equivalents annually, equal to 1.1 million boepd.

    Now Rosneft has reconsidered its involvement in Iran, due to the U.S. sanctions on Iranian oil and due to a change in Rosneft’s strategy to focus on growing production in Russia, according to Vedomosti’s sources.

    According to analysts who spoke to Vedomosti, Rosneft’s move to quit Iran is wise because risks were higher than rewards and Tehran hadn’t offered attractive terms for international investors anyway.

    Rosneft is not the only Russian company said to have quit projects in Iran due to the U.S. sanctions.

    Days before the U.S. sanctions on Iran’s oil snapped back, sources at Russia’s state-owned oil producer Zarubezhneft told Reuters that the company withdrew from Iran due to the sanctions.

    https://oilprice.com/Latest-Energy-News/World-News/Russias-Rosneft-Quits-Iran-30B-Of-Potential-Joint-Investments.html

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
  187. Dmitry says:
    @Matra

    My vacation in Vienna was many many years in the past – I remember I thought we were almost the only tourists in the city in those days (which can’t be true? but there were not that many tourists in that time).

    We were in summer holiday, and they had some kind of festival near the Rathauspark every evening, with films and music, and we just ate in the same park every evening. Vienna seemed to be a paradise ( in those days).

    Years later, I also studied on a German language summer course for two weeks in Salzburg (I learned almost no German, but practised speaking a lot of English). Salzburg was also complete paradise back then, and we could freely run all over the city .

    Actually I’m scared to go back to Austria to damage the memories, or to see if it’s been conquered by immigrants since those days.

    • Replies: @Matra
  188. Dmitry says:
    @Thorfinnsson

    I don’t eat sweets anymore, but Ritter Sport remains the best chocolate bar I’ve tasted and that’s not just nostalgia.

    Lol, it’s definitely nostalgia. Everything was better back then, especially chocolate and travel.

    Vacations in childhood and especially teenage years, seem now so much more enchanted and enjoyable, than vacations as an adult – even to the extent you probably shouldn’t return to the same destinations to damage the memories.

    • Replies: @Mikhail
  189. melanf says:

    Actually I’m scared to go back to Austria to damage the memories, or to see if it’s been conquered by immigrants since those days.

    I was in Cologne this November-a huge number of migrants, but the city seemed to me quite safe.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  190. Dmitry says:
    @melanf

    I think that’s generally like that. Immigrants are usually not that dangerous (it can be exaggerated in the press).

    But with Vienna, I remember many years ago, it was a quite quiet city, with relaxing summer atmosphere (in 2001), without so many foreigners, without overcrowding. I can only imagine, adding immigrants could have reduced the atmosphere in the years since then (although it still must surely be one of the best cities in the world).

  191. notanon says:

    think that’s generally like that. Immigrants are usually not that dangerous (it can be exaggerated in the press).

    the vast majority of inter-racial and inter-ethnic violence is older teenagers attacking younger kids (and to a lesser extent the elderly) of the target race / ethnicity.

    most people who don’t know this would never believe the huge scale and severity of this violence – especially sexual and sexual competition related violence – because the schools and media cover it up and have done so for 50 years.

    the violence in and around the schools is the primary driver of white flight in the West (and i assume it will be the primary driver of Japanese flight in Japan).

    (a lot of SJWs who go to live in a diverse neighborhood for a few years after college don’t get this – 22-ish is outside the target range – go live there at age 16- or 64+ – then you’d understand what people mean by no-go areas)

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  192. utu says:
    @reiner Tor

    Thanks for cues but it won’t help. It wa along time ago. I would have to walk the streets. It was a side street from Vaci Utca.

  193. utu says:
    @Dmitry

    I guess a creation of childhood imagination.

    All memories eventually become created.

  194. AP says:

    OT but the non-Moscow Ukrainian Church has a new Metropolitan and it is not Filaret. Two of the three Orthodox Churches in Ukraine have united; in addition, three hierarchs of the Moscow “Ukrainian Orthodox” Church (the ones in charge of Pereyaslav, Vynnytsia, and Cherkassy) disobeyed Onufrey, went over and participated.

    He goes to Constantinople to become official on January 6th.

  195. Beckow says:
    @Mr. Hack

    …Nobody ever said that the US is not an imperialistic state

    Double negative, a good one :). Well, it is not said by the same people who always call Russia’s space ‘imperial’. And how about Canada and Australia? All ‘imperial‘?

    We need to learn how to use consistent terminology.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    , @Seraphim
  196. Beckow says:
    @AP

    …she decided that working with FSB

    What? That has not even been alleged. How do you go from ‘maybe tried to apply to work for FSB‘ (while living in Washington no less, quite a genius, isn’t she?) – to ‘working with FSB‘?

    tries to join a Jihadist organization

    So now wanting to be friends with Russia is the same as joining ISIS? And you want people to take you seriously?

    Your desperate ramble is too stupid to address in a rational way. You simply don’t get the first thing about what freedom of expression means.

    I’ve been to many foreign countries many times, but I have never met with American spies nor have I ever applied to work for the CIA or FBI.

    Based on your lack of reasoning skills, I don’t think dining with spies is your main issue. You need help. It is impossible to argue with a lunatic…

  197. @AP

    Solitary confinement was for a total of 67 days, and not all at once (25 days was the last period). I imagine it is very unpleasant. But it’s a far cry from the Russian media claiming 6 months.

    Unpleasant is perhaps somewhat of an understatement:

    The issue, they say, is what happens inside the mind of someone who’s isolated for hours, days, weeks, or even months at a time.

    Juan Mendez knows what it’s like. And not just because of the stories he heard as the United Nations’ special rapporteur on torture.

    But because he lived it.

    It was just for three days, but he still remembers the experience decades later.

    How minutes seemed like hours, how he stared at a wall in his cell, unable to see beyond the darkness.

    He was a human rights lawyer being held as a political prisoner in Argentina during the country’s “dirty war.” Now he’s a professor at American University’s Washington College of Law.

    And these days, his words about solitary confinement come up in just about every human rights group’s statement decrying the practice.

    In 2011, Mendez called for an end to solitary confinement in most cases, saying it can amount to cruel and inhuman treatment – and that in some cases it’s tantamount to torture.

    Stints in solitary lasting more than 15 days, he says, should be banned altogether.

    “The science is quite clear. There’s no question that the harm is real, the suffering,” he says. “Any period of more than 15 days, your mind starts working differently.”

    http://edition.cnn.com/interactive/2018/08/us/ice-detention-stewart-georgia/

    Perhaps some Russians somewhere are saying that she was in solitary for 6 months, despite the fact that she was only arrested 5 months ago (precisely, as of today). But all the Russian “propaganda” sites I have checked (Sputnik, RT, Russia Insider, etc.) correctly report the length as 67 days. In any event, citing an (apparent) misstatement of the length of time she was in solitary confinement seems to me a rather disingenous way to minimize the (totally unnecessary) suffering that Butina has been put through.

    • Replies: @AP
    , @Mikhail
  198. @Matra

    She comes from a long line of Ukrainian multiculti activists who despite prospering in Anglo-Canada chooses to piss on the country’s heritage and founding stock.

    Hating the cakers is just a way of life for some people. All too common. Have them in my own family, sad to say.

  199. @Swarthy Greek

    Canada as a political entity was founded by French settlers. Anglos were colonisers who did everything to destroy French Canadian identity, from renaming Canadians quebeckers,to imposing « multiculturalism » to erase French culture.

    Yeah, yeah, I’m sure your heart just bleeds for French Canada. Just more anti-anglo wog faggotry really. Not hard to spot.

  200. Beckow says:

    …disingenous way to minimize the (totally unnecessary) suffering that Butina has been put through.

    It is a common technique used by people who have literally nothing to say. They zero in on some tiny detail, declare that someone ‘misrepresented‘ it, and yell about it endlessly. The approach of mainstream media to Trump is very similar. These are not serious people, it is a mistake to waste time arguing with them.

    They know they are wrong. They know we know it. Their goal is to prevent a discussion, it doesn’t work so they get increasingly more and more unhinged. Nobody in 10 years will defend what they did to Butina, they will try to forget it, write it off as a small abuse in volatile times, blame it on post-Trump hysteria in Washington.

    • Replies: @Mikhail
  201. Mr. Hack says:
    @Beckow

    I never mentioned Canada or Australia, you’re stretching your powers of ESP! 🙂

    Double negative, a good one :).

    You are correct. I’m currently studying for a standardized test where the questions are often phrased in a double negative manner. Hundreds of questions. 🙁

    • Replies: @Beckow
  202. Dmitry says:
    @notanon

    Are you writing about America?

    I was just talking about all these immigrants flooding Western European countries in the last ten years.

    It still seems very safe in almost all of Western Europe, so there I don’t believe some of the press hype on this topic.

    At the same time, from the tourists’ perspective, it’s reducing the atmosphere in my opinion.

    For example, when you explore in a historic part of a Spanish town to feel its medieval atmosphere, but instead there are all some random Africans and Arabs living in historic parts of many of these towns, some of them sitting on the side of the alley, trying to sell you Chinese imitations of Nikes.

    • Replies: @notanon
  203. Beckow says:
    @Mr. Hack

    …I never mentioned Canada or Australia

    I did, that was my point, why don’t we refer to Canadian or Australian ‘imperial’ spaces?

    Good luck on your test.

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
  204. @AP

    Once again – Butina was prosecuted not for words but for actions – in additon to pushing her POV (which is not illegal) she was also meeting a known spy and also applying to become a spy. These are actions. If you do not know the difference between these actions and words than you do not understand what “freedom of speech” is.

    Correct me if I am wrong (and I am sure you will), but my understanding is that these reputed “actions” are completely absent from what she has been convicted of. From the New York Times, certainly not a pro-Russian mouthpiece:

    Yet for all of the talk of Ms. Butina looking to make connections with influential Americans, she hardly comes off as a character out of “Red Sparrow,” a spy thriller about a Russian femme fatale. If anything, what stands out in the court papers is the absence of the most headline-grabbing accusations that were made against Ms. Butina after her arrest.

    There is the prosecution’s acknowledgment in the court papers that she genuinely wanted a graduate degree, and was not simply posing as a student. There is no mention of her having connections to Russian intelligence services. And nowhere is it suggested that she was only using Mr. Erickson to gain access to other influential Americans, or that she used sex at all in her efforts to promote pro-Russian views in the United States.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/10/us/politics/maria-butina-russia-nra.html

    You have accused Beckow of being a “proven liar”. Yet you have now (at least) three times claimed that she was seen having a meal with a “known” Russian intelligence agent. No source that I have seen says this (I will provide numerous references if you like), they all say only that the diplomat in question was “suspected” of being an intelligence agent. So who’s being loose with facts here?

    • Replies: @AP
    , @Matra
  205. AP says:
    @for-the-record

    Perhaps some Russians somewhere are saying that she was in solitary for 6 months

    My wife heard it on the news in Russia. And AK wrote it right here, he must have heard that also:

    “Still, Meng Wenzhou is a much bigger fish than the victims of previous such incidents, such as Maria Butina, who has been coerced into confessing to acting as a Russian foreign agent after six months in solitary.”

    In any event, citing an (apparent) misstatement of the length of time she was in solitary confinement

    It’s exaggerating x3.

    It was just for three days, but he still remembers the experience decades later.

    How minutes seemed like hours, how he stared at a wall in his cell, unable to see beyond the darkness.

    He was a human rights lawyer being held as a political prisoner in Argentina during the country’s “dirty war.” Now he’s a professor at American University’s Washington College of Law.

    Solitary confinement in the USA is probably much different than in Argentina during the military dictatorship.

    In the USA she gets one hour a day outside the cell to exercise; she also has access to books and magazines. But she is kept away from other inmates. It must get terribly boring after awhile and it must be very unpleasant but it is not “torture.” Indeed, research has shown that solitary confinement in the USA for periods lasting up to 60 days results in no known negative psychological effect relative to being in the general prison population (while Butina has spent a total of 67 days in solitary it was spread out over several months; her longest has been about 25 days).

    Keep in mind that her lawyer’s job is to present her plight as negatively as possible in order to generate sympathy, so take what he says with a grain of salt.

    • Replies: @for-the-record
    , @Mikhail
  206. AP says:
    @for-the-record

    “Once again – Butina was prosecuted not for words but for actions – in additon to pushing her POV (which is not illegal) she was also meeting a known spy and also applying to become a spy. These are actions. If you do not know the difference between these actions and words than you do not understand what “freedom of speech” is.”

    Correct me if I am wrong (and I am sure you will), but my understanding is that these reputed “actions” are completely absent from what she has been convicted of.

    They were the evidence of her crime that she plead guilty to – “engaging in conspiracy.”

    BTW she was placed in solitary confinement due to her own actions:

    https://www.cnn.com/2018/12/13/politics/maria-butina-guilty-plea/index.html

    ” On Thursday, the judge revealed prosecutors heard her on taped phone calls from jail with a journalist admitting that she had tried to get messages to the media, and potentially through her lawyer and through other inmates, even though she was under a court order not to speak about her case.”

    You have accused Beckow of being a “proven liar”.

    It’s not an accusation. It is a proven fact.

    I wrote: “she was photographed having a meal with a Russian diplomat known for being a spy””

    Beckow wrote: “We all have photos with lots of people – it literally means nothing. I once took a picture with Lama”

    How are his words not a lie? She wasn’t just in the room with him she was meeting him over dinner.

    Yet you have now (at least) three times claimed that she was seen having a meal with a “known” Russian intelligence agent. No source that I have seen says this (I will provide numerous references if you like)

    https://www.thedailybeast.com/maria-butina-who-infiltrated-nra-and-gop-has-ties-to-russian-intelligence-prosecutors-say

    “FBI surveillance also captured Butina in March 2018 “sharing a private meal” with a person whom U.S. intelligence believes is “a Russian intelligence officer” under diplomatic cover. Her contact information, recovered by the FBI, includes “individuals identified as employees of the Russian FSB,” including an email account with an “FSB-associated domain.”

    “Believed to be” is close to “known” though I should have been more careful.

    Believe: ” to have confidence in the truth, the existence, or the reliability of something, although without absolute proof that one is right in doing so”

    Know: ” to be aware of the truth or factuality of : be convinced or certain of”

    Because the alleged diplomat/spy has not been captured he is referred to in official documents by the prosecutor as “suspected.”

    From NY Times: “In March, she had dinner with a Russian diplomat described by prosecutors as a suspected Russian intelligence officer. He left the United States two weeks later, around the time a dozen Russian intelligence officers were expelled from the country over the poisoning of a British informant..”

    I wrote “known” when source said “believed to be.” Beckow wrote happened to be in the same place such as an elevator with someone, when in reality it was a personal one on one meeting over a meal.

    It is clear who is more loose with the facts here.

    • Replies: @ia
  207. Anon[599] • Disclaimer says:
    @melanf

    In Eastern Europe, very small Mongol forces captured many fortified cities – these cities were captured in a few days or even hours (post 105 of this discussion).

    If your strongest points can be conquered “within hours” by any kind of 13th century army, you’re either fortifying them wrong or defending them wrong. Probably both. You should be able to defend a stockade longer than that.

    Chinese fortifications are not quite up to European standards, but the Mongols took months to starve out Kaifeng, for instance.

    It would be nice if you showed us some of these fortifications that are still around…

    • Replies: @melanf
  208. @AP

    Indeed, research has shown that solitary confinement in the USA for periods lasting up to 60 days results in no known negative psychological effect relative to being in the general prison population

    Perhaps there is a study somewhere showing what you claim, it’s hard for me to prove that there isn’t. What I have been able to find, which I think you are perhaps alluding to, is the following:

    “No study of the effects of solitary or supermax-like confinement that lasted longer than 60 days failed to find evidence of negative psychological effects.”

    Amicus Brief to the Supreme Court, 2005

    Of course, this is not at all the same as saying that there is “no known negative psychological effect” for “periods lasting up to 60 days”. So I await your source.

    You also confidently assert that, while it must get boring and be unpleasant, it is not “torture”. I suggest you communicate your unique knowledge of this point to the UN Special Rapporteur on Torture, who has evidently misspoken himself when he declared that “solitary confinement for more than 15 days…constitutes cruel and inhuman, or degrading treatment, or even torture”.

    • Replies: @AP
  209. notanon says:
    @Dmitry

    It still seems very safe in almost all of Western Europe

    the vast majority of inter-racial and inter-ethnic violence is committed by older teenagers against younger ones in and around the schools – the media cover it up.

  210. ia says:
    @AP

    but I have never met with American spies

    Are you sure? How do you know she wasn’t being used by American intelligence agencies? And they found another use for her.

  211. AP says:
    @for-the-record

    Perhaps there is a study somewhere showing what you claim

    There have been multiple studies. Evidence of bad effects in American prisons for solitary confinement (“administrative segregation”) relative to regular incarceration for adults begins after 90 days.

    https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/249749.pdf

    Go to page 16.

    The summary for results of psychological effects is o page 19:

    “It should be noted that one key distinction between the separate bodies of work related to psychological effects is that those who have found marked psychological distress among inmates subjected to solitary confinement have tended to study those held in solitary confinement for extended periods of time, whereas those finding no convincing evidence of distress have tended to study those held in solitary confinement for far more abbreviated periods (for 30, 60 or 90 days, for example) It should also be noted that those finding excessive harm tended to employ an intensive qualitative case study approach, conducting extensive interviews with (and assessments of) inmates held, often indefinitely, in solitary confinement. ”

    Results of meta-analyses are on pg. 24″

    “In their meta-analytic review, they found only weak effects of solitary confinement on inmate outcomes (most of which were psychological) and concluded that their meta-analytic review did not find support for the long-argued contention that solitary confinement has lasting psychological effects on those subjected to it (Smith et al., 2015). Significantly, the studies employing weaker research designs produced stronger effects than those employing the more rigorous research designs (Gendreau & Labrecque, 2015). A second meta-analysis reported similar results (Morgan et al., 2014, as cited in Labrecque, 2015), leading Labrecque (2015) to conclude that the findings from these recent meta analyses: “cast some doubts about SC being as devastating to inmates as has often been portrayed in the media and by some human rights organizations, activists, and scholars who vehemently oppose the practice on moral/ethical grounds,” adding, “these findings serve as a caution to reviewers about making judgments regarding the effects of SC too hastily, especially when they are based on qualitative rather than quantitative evidence” (Labrecque, 2015, p. 6).”

    You also confidently assert that, while it must get boring and be unpleasant, it is not “torture”. I suggest you communicate your unique knowledge of this point to the UN Special Rapporteur on Torture, who has evidently misspoken himself when he declared that “solitary confinement for more than 15 days…constitutes cruel and inhuman, or degrading treatment, or even torture”.

    Ah, a UN appointee. Such a source 🙂

    I like how a place such as Saudi Arabia gets to be on the UN Human Rights Council.

    Sorry, I prefer results of actual scholarship. It shows that lengthy periods of solitary confinement are indeed harmful (some prisoners spend years in this condition) but periods of 30, 60, or 90 days are not.

    BTW, why did you fail to notice that Butina was placed on segregation from other prisoners specifically because she chose to violate the court order by discussing her case with other prisoners?

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    , @Mikhail
    , @bj
  212. Matra says:
    @for-the-record

    Prosecutors withdrew the charge of working with or having any contact with foreign (ie. Russian) intelligence. They quietly withdrew most of the sensational accusations against her:

    Alleged Russian spy may not have offered sex for job, prosecutors concede

  213. Matra says:
    @Swarthy Greek

    The English left les habitants alone to pursue their own objectives in their own way – much to the chagrin of American colonists – after the Conquest. It was during that period that they evolved from French settlers to Quebec nation.

  214. Matra says:
    @Dmitry

    Actually I’m scared to go back to Austria to damage the memories, or to see if it’s been conquered by immigrants since those days.

    There are lots of immigrants but it still feels Austrian/German to me. That said, my first visit was in 2010 so my perception will be different from someone with memories of the country going back decades.

  215. Mr. Hack says:

    Fantastic News:

    It is with praise to God, great joy and satisfaction that the Ecumenical Patriarchate announces the successful completion of the work of the Unifying Synod (Sobor)—foundational of the new Orthodox Autocephalous Church of Ukraine—which was convened in Kyiv today, December 15th, 2018. Metropolitan Epiphanios of Pereiaslav and Belotserkovsky was elected as its Primate.
    His Beatitude, the newly-elected Primate, contacted His All-Holiness, the Ecumenical Patriarch, expressed his respect and asked the wishes and blessings of the Mother Church for fruition of his primatial ministry, which starts under good auspices.
    In this context, it is announced that Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew invited His Beatitude Epiphanios to concelebrate the Divine Liturgy at the Phanar on the great feast of Theophany and to deliver to him the Tomos of establishment of the new sister Autocephalous Church.
    At the Ecumenical Patriarchate, the 15th of December, 2018

    From the Chief Secretariat
    of the Holy and Sacred Synod

  216. AP says:
    @Mr. Hack

    Indeed. It is nice that Filaret was not the guy picked (he did not run), and it was nice that three hierarchs of the Moscow Church also participated (I think, against Onufriy’s wishes). One of them even did well in the voting. By taking part they have been expelled by Onufrey from his Church, now known as the Russian Orthodox Church in Ukraine.

    Metropolitan Epiphanios of Pereiaslav and Belotserkovsky:

    • Agree: Mr. Hack
    • Replies: @Mikhail
  217. Seraphim says:
    @Parbes

    @how many of their coeval adversaries do you think were up to modern standards of personal hygiene?

    Certainly not the Vikings, the role model of ‘Nordic-White’ supremacism.

    “[A recent] study, conducted on thousand-year-old parasite eggs recovered from Viking faeces, shows that both the Vikings and their domestic animals were plagued by parasites — which most likely enjoyed excellent living conditions in a dirty world in which domestic animals and humans lived in unhygienically close proximity to each other”.
    @http://sciencenordic.com/dna-study-vikings-were-plagued-intestinal-parasites

    “[The Viking raids] caused new diseases to spread among the British, diseases such as the Dupuytren disease, also known as the Viking disease, a nickname it has gotten because it is believed to originate from Scandinavia”.
    @https://norse-mythology.net/viking-diseases/

    • Replies: @songbird
  218. Seraphim says:
    @Beckow

    Canada and Australia were parts (privileged) of the ‘British Empire’. They were ‘imperial’.

  219. songbird says:
    @Seraphim

    I don’t believe Dupuytren ‘s is infectious. Though your point about worms is well-taken. Probably why there are so many autoimmune diseases and allergies today – our ancestors were infected with worms for thousands of years.

  220. Seraphim says:
    @Mr. Hack

    Schism-makers fall under anathema. By recognizing an already schismatic ‘church’ the Fanar fell itself into schism. Both fell under anathema.

    Apostolic Canon XXXI:

    “If any Presbyter, condemning his own bishop, draw people aside and set up another altar, without finding anything wrong with the Bishop in point of piety and righteousness, let him be deposed, on the ground that he is an office-seeker. For he is a tyrant. Let the rest of clergymen be treated likewise, and all those who abet him. But let the laymen be excommunicated. Let these things be done after one, and a second, and a third request of the Bishop.”

    Canon XV of the 1st & 2nd:

    “The rules laid down with reference to Presbyters and Bishops and Metropolitans are still more applicable to Patriarchs. So that in case any Presbyter or Bishop or Metropolitan dares to secede or apostatize from the communion of his own Patriarch, and fails to mention the latter’s name in accordance with custom duly fixed and ordained, in the divine Mystagogy, but, before a conciliar verdict has been pronounced and has passed judgement against him, creates a schism, the holy Synod has decreed that this person shall be held an alien to every priestly function if only he be convicted of having committed this transgression of the law. Accordingly, these rules have been sealed and ordained as respecting persons who under the pretext of charges against their own presidents stand aloof, and create a schism, and disrupt the union of the Church. But as for those persons, on the other hand, who, on account of some heresy condemned by holy Synods, or Fathers, withdrawing themselves from communion with their president, who, that is to say, is preaching the heresy publicly, and teaching it bareheaded in church, such persons not only are not subject to any canonical penalty on account of their having walled themselves off from any and all communion with the one called a Bishop before any conciliar or synodical verdict has been rendered, but, on the contrary, they shall be deemed worthy to enjoy the honor which befits them among Orthodox Christians. For they have defied, not Bishops, but pseudo-bishops and pseudo-teachers; and they have not sundered the union of the Church with any schism, but, on the contrary, have been sedulous to rescue the Church from schisms and divisions.”

    • Replies: @AP
    , @Mr. Hack
  221. AP says:
    @Seraphim

    Found this, according to Constantinople which rescinded anathema against Mazepa and Filaret:

    https://risu.org.ua/en/index/all_news/community/religion_and_policy/72708/

    The Ecumenical Patriarchate did not recognize as canonical the anathema that was imposed on the Ukrainian Hetman Ivan Mazepa by the Russian Orthodox Church.

    The representative of the Ecumenical Patriarchate at the World Council of Churches in Geneva, Archbishop Job (Getcha) of Telmessos, explained that after the first destruction by the Russian forces of the Zaporozhian Sich in 1709, the Ukrainian Cossacks, which passed under the protectorate of the Crimean Khan, returned to the jurisdiction of the Constantinople Patriarchate, and Mazepa, together with Pylyp Orlyk, were among the first to do so.

    “His Eminence Job is an official spokesman. He is speaking on behalf of the Ecumenical Patriarchate who explained that Mazepa was in full contact with the Orthodox priests and died as a believer of the canonical Orthodox Church. Thus, Moscow’s anathema was never valid for the Ecumenical Patriarchate. The statement can be the basis for the next important step, namely the non-recognition of the anathema of the Moscow Patriarchate imposed on Patriarch Filaret,” said the religious scholar.

    According to him, the Russians imposed the anathema on Mazepa for political reasons “Anathema is excommunication because of violation of certain church canons. Mazepa did not do this. Similarly, Patriarch Filaret did not do anything that would violate Orthodox dogmas. In any of his decisions he did not infringe on the Orthodox doctrine. Thus, the anathema, which was imposed on him in 1997, is unfair. The statement about Mazepa is now one of the biggest issues for the Russian Orthodox Church. It shows Ukraine and the whole Orthodox world that the decisions taken by Moscow may not be supported by the Ecumenical Patriarchate, which is first in dignity,” said Andriy Yurash.

    • Replies: @Mikhail
  222. melanf says:
    @Anon

    If your strongest points can be conquered “within hours” by any kind of 13th century army, you’re either fortifying them wrong or defending them wrong. Probably both. You should be able to defend a stockade longer than that.

    The vast majority of European fortresses of that era had very weak fortifications. If the Mongols invaded, for example, France, French castles (and small towns) were also captured in a few hours.

    Chinese fortifications are not quite up to European standards, but the Mongols took months to starve out Kaifeng, for instance.

    What is at dispute? Mamluks, precisely in this era captured the strongest fortresses which Europeans could build. On this there can be no doubt in the ability of the Mongols to overcome the strongest European fortress

    Or are there doubts about the existence of powerful fortresses in the East? Well, look preserved to this day a giant castle Naryn-Kala in Dagestan (built in the 6th century)

    • Replies: @Anon
  223. @Mr. Hack

    What a shitty way for the last vestiges of Byzantium to fall.

    Ukraine will really turn anything into shit.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  224. @Beckow

    I did, that was my point, why don’t we refer to Canadian or Australian ‘imperial’ spaces?

    I agree, it is silly. Like calling Japan or China imperial because they colonised Hokkaido or Manchuria in the past. Or Denmark for colonising Greenland.

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
    , @melanf
    , @songbird
  225. @Hyperborean

    Sami people accuse Scandinavians and Russians of being colonisers.

    https://www.sametinget.se/62102

    Is Sweden an imperialist state because they sit on occupied land?

    • Replies: @Simpleguest
  226. melanf says:
    @Hyperborean

    I agree, it is silly. Like calling Japan or China imperial because they colonised Hokkaido or Manchuria in the past. Or Denmark for colonising Greenland.

    Even without Greenland – Scandinavia in 1219. As you can see, Norway and Sweden is also the standard of sinister “Eurasianism” imperialism/s

  227. @Hyperborean

    “Is Sweden an imperialist state because they sit on occupied land?”

    Moreover, is Ukraine imperialist state because it sits on occupied land, too?

    And by occupied, I mean land previously inhabited by whoever lived in the areas of Black sea cost, Crimea and lands that used to be called Novorussia.
    Basically, all lands that Ukraine obtained as, what I would call a “reward” others may call it a “booty”, for its 300 years of union with Russia.

  228. Seraphim says:

    Anathemas are not ‘lifted’ unless the offender repents. In actual fact, anathema is addressed to the offense, schism or heresy. UOC-KP was a schism from the outset. The new Autocephalous UOC pushes the schism further. The Ukrainaian laity who join it are schismatics, no matter how much they orgasm that they thumb their collective nose at the ‘Moskaly’.

  229. @AP

    You have made four main points about Butina (please correct me if I left out some):

    1) she was once having lunch with a “known” spy; as a side point, you made the accusation against Beckow of lying and distorting the facts for his Lama example

    2) she made a detailed list of influential people she wanted to meet and use to get to Trump and other high ranking officials

    3) she wanted to join the FSB

    4) she was talking about her case to other inmates, so her solitary confinement was justified; as a side point, you accused the Russian media of severely distorting the facts by lying about the length of the solitary confinement

    So, here are my answers:

    1) first, though it’s not very important, it’s bullshit. Many (most?) diplomats double as intelligence operatives, so basically all diplomats are “suspected” of being spies. The investigators and the prosecution (both of whom want a conviction) will doubtless say so, as will the counter-intelligence (who want more funding). In this case, the investigators happen to be the counter-intelligence (both the FBI), so what reason do we have to believe them? When countries expel diplomats, they always accuse them of being spies, but is it always true? It’s sometimes beneficial to have a known spy around who could be fed disinformation, so maybe they are sometimes expelling innocent diplomats and keeping the spies. Also, they might not have certain information about enough spy-diplomats for such mass expulsions. So we have no reason to believe the claim that the diplomat in question was a spy. But that’s just a side point. So let’s just accept that he was, indeed, a spy.

    The bigger issue is that, of course, there’s no evidence whatsoever that Butina herself knew anything about the diplomat in question being a spy. The innocent explanation is that she tried to advocate and lobby for friendly relations between the two countries, and she, representing only herself, as much needed to build connections to the Russian government (where her main contact was… a maverick pro-gun rights deputy governor of the central bank), as to US political circles, and so she tried to reach out to Russian diplomats. Because the diplomats realized that she really had some contacts, they thought it was worth having a lunch with her. Maybe they sent some intelligence officer to see if she could be useful (but probably found that she wasn’t useful as a spy, or else she would have engaged in more explicit spying activities). Anyway, if I went to Yahooland and tried to create the Yahoo-Hungarian Friendship Society, I’d probably be trying to meet Hungarian diplomats as well as Yahoo political notabilities.

    Regarding Beckow, his example was not exactly analogous, but to be honest, I didn’t find your example of being pro-ISIS very good either.

    2) she was engaged in networking. I’ve never built any organization from scratch, nor have I risen to lead any, but my understanding is that being systematic is a big advantage.

    Now it would be more sinister if she tried to find dirt on these people with the intention of later blackmailing them, but so far I haven’t seen anything about it. It seems that she merely wanted to convince these people, and thought that the arguments for the friendship of the two countries was so overwhelming that she could accomplish something by simply being friendly to these people.

    So is there evidence that she tried to blackmail anyone?

    Also, please note that this evidence only came to the attention of the investigators after they arrested her and her home was searched. So the issue remains that people could be arrested solely for being politically active in the US.

    3) can you provide links about it? NPR didn’t say that, and to be honest, I find it boring to read through all articles about Butina.

    https://www.npr.org/2018/12/13/676406084/maria-butina-guilty-in-foreign-agent-case-admits-clandestine-influence-scheme

    Butina also had materials that suggested she was in contact with Russia’s domestic intelligence service, the FSB, prosecutors said.

    That’s pretty vague language, if you ask me. But I didn’t read all or even many articles, so you could be right.

    The point about there being no evidence before she was put into custody is also still valid.

    4) it also hinges on how reasonable the judge’s decision was. (Probably asked for by the prosecution.) It’s well known that they will indict a ham sandwich, especially in the context of the Russiagate hysteria, so I tend to think that they just followed the prosecutor’s request, and that it was not a very reasonable decision. Also, how easy it is to keep secrets, while there’s really nothing else to talk about with your fellow inmates, who are probably very different people and might not be interested in anything else about you? Besides, her hobby horse was gun rights, so if she started talking about it, it was pretty difficult for her to avoid talking about her case, where she was arrested for her involvement with the American gun rights movement.

    Regarding false reporting, it’s probably a case of people (including journalists) not reading the news very thoroughly and assuming a lot based on their sympathies. Comment threads on Facebook under reports of her guilty plea (I didn’t read the articles, some of which are behind paywalls anyway; I have seen comments below CNBC, FT, WSJ, Bloomberg articles, and comments were similar) implied that most people simply assumed she was a Red Sparrow. I have read articles which implied as much without saying so explicitly. In general, I have seen Western reports which took the whole “Russia hacked the election” stuff as fact.

    So I’m not sure if Russian reporting of the case was deliberate lying or just the usual lazy journalist stuff, but with very different priors and biases than in the West.

    5) you never answered that point I made regarding the American guy who was financing a political party in Hungary and then got further involved when paying some badly behaving Gypsies a free vacation. He was never put into custody, and it would have been a scandal if he was. He might have had lunches with American diplomats.

    • Replies: @Beckow
    , @AP
    , @AP
  230. Anonymous[250] • Disclaimer says:
    @Mr. Hack

    “And next week Mueller will deliver further indictments”

    (laugh track plays)

  231. El Dato says:
    @utu

    Canada did no have significant Black population that in America was used to break European non-Protestant groups and make them assume Protestant invented white identity

    What the actual fcuck am I reading?

  232. Here’s the Daily Beast:

    Photographs taken by FBI agents showed Butina meeting with an officer from Russia’s Federal Security Service (FSB) at a Washington restaurant, and a note agents found at her apartment shows her mulling “How to respond to FSB offer of employment?”

    https://www.thedailybeast.com/accused-russian-agent-maria-butina-enters-guilty-plea

    It doesn’t sound like a sinister girl trying to join ISIS or even FSB, it’s more like meeting with a diplomat who unexpectedly gave her an offer to join the FSB. (Though that’d confirm that the diplomat in question truly was a spy.) Since she’s now not even accused of being a spy, it’s obvious she didn’t take the offer.

    So we seem to be back at square one: she was arrested for being politically active while staying in a supposedly free country.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    , @Jon0815
  233. @reiner Tor

    Though that’d confirm that the diplomat in question truly was a spy.

    Assuming she received the employment offer from him and not through someone else.

    Also assuming it was a real offer and not just a hypothetical one. She seems to be someone very methodical who is writing down everything, very good for a politician (or maybe anyone else), but not for a spy.

  234. @for-the-record

    This is something which could be easily circumvented, but Putin is probably old and lazy to do anything about it.

  235. OT

    The Americans are working to extradite Gülen to Turkey. Erdogan seems to be very strong now. Putin should block the S-400 deal and give him back the money, or else it will fall into American hands. The way I understand it, the sole purpose of the S-400 deal was for Putin to sow discord in NATO. But now with the US going out of its way to please Erdogan, and with Putin’s bromance with MBS, this is no longer working. So now he needs to protect his military technology.

    https://m.dw.com/en/us-working-to-extradite-cleric-fethullah-gulen-turkish-pm/a-46762611

  236. songbird says:
    @Hyperborean

    Norseman were in Greenland before the Innuit. Although they may have all left or died off.

  237. Mr. Hack says:
    @Seraphim

    Anything in your rulebook about distancing yourself from known black marketeers of tobacco and alcohol, or is that part somehow whited out? My mother always taught me to shun these sorts of nogoodniks:

    Prior to becoming the patriarch, Kirill, a former KGB agent, was exploiting the church’s tax-free status by importing alcohol and cigarettes and selling them at lower than market value prices. According to Forbes magazine “In 1995, the Nikolo-Ugreshky Monastery, which is directly subordinated to the patriarchate, earned $350 million from the sale of alcohol. The patriarchate’s department of foreign church relations, which Kirill ran, earned $75 million from the sale of tobacco. But the patriarchate reported an annual budget in 1995-1996 of only $2 million.” The antics earned Kirill the moniker of ‘Tobacco Metropolitan.’

    In 2006 Kirill’s personal wealth was estimated to be $4 billion, and in 2012 he was seen sporting a $30,000 watch. Initially the church Photoshopped the offending timepiece off his wrist but forgot to remove its reflection from the shiny table he was sitting at.

    https://www.dw.com/en/russian-orthodox-church-tries-to-make-hay/a-18648735

    Read more of the cited article for more dirt.

    • Replies: @Mikhail
    , @Seraphim
  238. Mr. Hack says:
    @anonymous coward

    On the contrary, the Ukrainian church is at last reuniting with Byzantium (its mother church), in all of its glory. Praise the Lord!

  239. Mikhail says: • Website
    @Dmitry

    Vacations in childhood and especially teenage years, seem now so much more enchanted and enjoyable, than vacations as an adult – even to the extent you probably shouldn’t return to the same destinations to damage the memories.

    One step away from saying that life is no longer worth living. All the more reason to explore new surroundings.

  240. Mikhail says: • Website
    @for-the-record

    In any event, citing an (apparent) misstatement of the length of time she was in solitary confinement seems to me a rather disingenous way to minimize the (totally unnecessary) suffering that Butina has been put through.

    Reminded of the Samantha Power/Svido spin on the Odessa massacre.

  241. Mikhail says: • Website
    @Beckow

    They know they are wrong. They know we know it. Their goal is to prevent a discussion, it doesn’t work so they get increasingly more and more unhinged. Nobody in 10 years will defend what they did to Butina, they will try to forget it, write it off as a small abuse in volatile times, blame it on post-Trump hysteria in Washington.

    They ignore, instead of acknowledge being wrong – unless it fits their bias. A somewhat example of the latter is how neolib leaning Zakaria says (albeit wrongly) that Romney has been proven right about Russia.

    As for the former, note the establishment’s recollecting of George Bush. No mention of his reasoned warning against a suicidal nationalism path for Ukraine. Similarly, little establishment recollecting of the Bush-Baker foreign policy team not being as carte blanche towards as Israel, when compared to other US administrations.

    • Replies: @Beckow
  242. Mikhail says: • Website
    @AP

    Keep in mind that her lawyer’s job is to present her plight as negatively as possible in order to generate sympathy, so take what he says with a grain of salt.

    In this and some other instances, the same applies to the side of the prosecution and the US mass media at large.

  243. Mikhail says: • Website
    @AP

    Ah, a UN appointee. Such a source

    Like the ones spinning anti-Russian BS.

  244. Mikhail says: • Website
    @AP

    By taking part they have been expelled by Onufrey from his Church, now known as the Russian Orthodox Church in Ukraine.

    Another example of your BS slanting as noted:

    http://church.ua/en/

  245. Mikhail says: • Website
    @AP

    It shows Ukraine and the whole Orthodox world that the decisions taken by Moscow may not be supported by the Ecumenical Patriarchate, which is first in dignity,” said Andriy Yurash.

    Such a source. 🙂 Nothing especially dignified about Bart in Istanbul. The point about first among equals is a recognition of the root locale of Orthodox Christianity. Otherwise, Bart isn’t a Pope, in addition to having comparatively limited influence, as shown by the stances taken among national OC churches on the UOC and a good number in Kiev regime controlled Ukraine – who despite pressure from the state and extremists, remain a noticeable number.

  246. Mikhail says: • Website
    @Mr. Hack

    According…..

    Like Filaret has been squeaky clean.

    As for Kirill, Wiki has this:

    Journalists of the newspapers Kommersant and Moskovskij Komsomolets accused Kirill of profiteering and abuse of the privilege of duty-free importation of cigarettes granted to the Church in the mid-1990s and dubbed him “Tobacco Metropolitan”.[40] The Department for External Church Relations was alleged to have acted as the largest supplier of foreign cigarettes in Russia.[41] The profits of this operation allegedly under Kirill’s direction were estimated to have totaled $1.5 billion by sociologist Nikolai Mitrokhin in 2004, and at $4 billion by The Moscow News in 2006.[42][43] However, Nathaniel Davis said that “… There is no evidence that Metropolitan Kirill has actually embezzled funds. What is more likely is that profits from the importation of tobacco and cigarettes have been used for urgent, pressing Church expenses.”[41] The duty-free importation of cigarettes ended in 1997.[41] In his 2002 interview with Izvestia, Metropolitan Kirill called the allegations about his profiteering a political campaign against him.[44]

    Alexander Pochinok who was the minister of taxes and levies (1999-2000), said in 2009 that Kirill had no involvement in the violations.

    &

    In 2012, Kirill was accused of wearing a Swiss Breguet watch worth over £20,000 (USD $30,000). In an interview with Vladimir Solovyov, Kirill said that he owned a Breguet, among other gifts, but he had never worn it.[67] Concerning a photo which appeared to show him wearing the Breguet at a liturgy, Kirill stated “I was looking at that picture and suddenly I understood – it was a collage! But after that photograph was posted I began examining. As many people come and make presents. And often there are boxes that were never opened and you don’t know what is there. And I found out that in fact there is Breguet watch, so I’ve never given commentaries that the Patriarch doesn’t have it. There is a box with Breguet, but I’ve never worn it.” [68] This triggered at least one Internet blogger to study the issue and collect images of Kirill’s wristwear. [69] Some time later, photographs on his official website showed him wearing what appeared to be an expensive watch on his left wrist,[70] [71] and later one even showed the watch airbrushed out, but with a reflection of it still visible on the table’s glossy surface.[72] Later, it was stated by the Russian Church officials that it was a 24-year-old employee who “acted out of stupid, unjustifiable and unauthorized initiative” in editing the photo.[73] It was also stated that “the guilty ones [for the image manipulation] will be punished severely”.[72][71]

    The accusation about him being a KGB agent is unproven crock, as evidenced by how the not so pro-Kirill Wiki entry on him makes no mention of that claim peddled by some anti-ROC-MP leaning sources.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriarch_Kirill_of_Moscow#Importation_of_cigarettes

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    , @AP
  247. Anon[599] • Disclaimer says:
    @melanf

    Leaving Mamelukes aside, Mongols didn’t capture European fortifications within “a few hours”, or at all in some cases. For instance, in the general panic of the sack of the Hungarian city of Esztergom, a Spanish count with a few followers managed to hold the (likely ill-prepared) citadel against all assault.

    Fortifications in this period could take decades to build. If they were going to be lost in “a few hours” that was decades of wasted effort.

    Can you share the Mongol-era history of the forts you posted.

    • Replies: @melanf
    , @melanf
  248. Mr. Hack says:
    @Mikhail

    Kiril was the head of the church when the shady cigarette and alcohol deals were going on, therefore he was involved and was responsible. Kiril is still the head of his church, whereas Filaret, for all intents and purposes, is soon retiring. There’s a new, young leader that’s’ been nominated if you haven’t noticed. It’s time for Kiril to retire too, for the good of the ROC and world Orthodoxy.

    • Replies: @Mikhail
  249. Beckow says:
    @reiner Tor

    That is a good summary of what we know at this point. Butina was charged for being ‘politically active’ while in US, and for being from Russia. That unfortunate reality has a lot of very bad consequences.

    …example was not exactly analogous

    I am aware that all ‘analogies‘ are imperfect – I think one of the biggest problems with our current public discussion are false analogies. They are everywhere, from Hitler to feudalism, it is an all-purpose verbal tool, mostly misused.

    My point about taking a picture with someone – versus taking that picture while having a meal together – is that neither one is illegal or on its face suspicious. It proves nothing. It can also be used almost endlessly around the world to harass any visitor, student or businessman. ‘AP’s’ claim that he has never dined with anyone ‘suspicious’ is preposterous, how does he know? There is also the uncomfortable reality that security organs (everywhere) don’t play by fair rules – they are about ‘winning’, they will fabricate or exaggerate suspicious ‘facts’ as needed.

    If a Western student in Moscow gets picked up because she is discussing ‘feminism’ or LGBT and had a dinner at US Embassy (or any Western institution), and then they find her personal notes about how she plans to talk to feminist leaders in Moscow, and how some NGO discussed offering her a fellowship, and she is charged with being an ‘unregistered agent’ or ‘meddling’, how exactly would that be any different from what has happened to Butina? We are in a hostage taking territory and that is bad for everybody.

    What AP does is a PR technique called tactical nihilism. It is used when you have absolutely no case, it is an attempt to polarize people and to muddy up the obvious reality with endless exaggerated nonsense. You cannot have a discussion with people on that level, so I don’t.

    • Replies: @for-the-record
  250. Jon0815 says:
    @reiner Tor

    It doesn’t sound like a sinister girl trying to join ISIS or even FSB, it’s more like meeting with a diplomat who unexpectedly gave her an offer to join the FSB. (Though that’d confirm that the diplomat in question truly was a spy.)

    If the diplomat were a spy he’d probably be working for the SVR, not the FSB.

    I don’t see how an offer to join the FSB implicates Butina in wanting to become a spy: The FSB is a law enforcement/internal security organization, basically the Russian equivalent of the FBI, and doesn’t typically engage in trying to recruit human intelligence assets in other countries.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
  251. @Jon0815

    I think it’s more complicated than that, the FSB has expanded to the point that it now has some foreign activities, though maybe not really classical intelligence gathering activities.

  252. Jon0815 says:

    I think it’s more complicated than that, the FSB has expanded to the point that it now has some foreign activities, though maybe not really classical intelligence gathering activities.

    Yes, and the FBI has some foreign activities too. But for someone trying to recruit US human intelligence assets, as Butina is accused of doing, the FSB wouldn’t be the natural place to go, that would be the SVR. Just as an American doing something similar in Moscow would probably be seeking employment with the CIA, not the FBI.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
  253. @Jon0815

    someone trying to recruit US human intelligence assets

    She’s not accused of that. At least not anymore.

    The way I understand it, the worst interpretation is that she might have wanted to blackmail or otherwise influence (I still don’t understand how the latter is considered a bad thing in a free country?) people into spreading propaganda and thereby influencing US politics.

    So maybe SVR does the classic intelligence gathering and FSB the political influencing?

    Anyway, if she worked for the Russian government, she should have registered as a Russian agent. But Torshin was clearly not the Russian government, so even that part is false, but at least it could theoretically be possible, if for example she had joined the FSB.

    • Replies: @Jon0815
  254. Beckow says:
    @Mikhail

    …Zakaria says (albeit wrongly) that Romney has been proven right about Russia

    Although I am not really familiar with the Zakaria guy, the high-level generalisations that occupy his brain space are pathetic. What Romney’s example suggests is that already in 2012 there was a concerted effort to restart some kind of a Cold War with Russia. Now we basically have it, is anybody better off?

    • Replies: @Mikhail
  255. bj says:
    @AP

    You’re one of those punks that would be a snitch in prison and who never saw a cop whose dick you wouldn’t suck. The efficiency of solitary confinement lies in the threat of more solitary confinement. You would be ratting out your mother in week, punk.

    • Replies: @AP
  256. Seraphim says:
    @Mr. Hack

    With all due respect for the ‘authority’ in Church matters of your mom, did ever occur to you that splashing dirt on the ROC priests (as on all priests, be them Orthodox or Catholic) is standard procedure of the Jewish-Bolshevik anti-Christian campaigns, straight from the ‘Bezbozhnik’ manual of Minei Israelovich Gubelman (aka Yemelyan Yaroslavsky), of ‘Pussy Riot’ and ‘Femen’?

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  257. Jon0815 says:
    @reiner Tor

    Unless the offer to join the FSB (assuming it actually happened) had nothing to do with Butina’s activities in the USA (that is, it was an offer to work for the FSB once she returned to Russia), it doesn’t really make much sense. That makes me suspect it is something cooked up by prosecutors who were ignorant of the difference between the FSB and SVR.

  258. Mr. Hack says:
    @Seraphim

    Stick to the topic at hand and save your conspiracy theories for somebody else. You’ve tried to lambaste the Ecumenical Patriarch, but I’m interested in knowing just how you plan to respond once your beloved Patriarch Daniel of Romania sides with Bartholomew in his gesture to grant the Ukrainian church autocephaly? And, I don’t think that I’m going too far out on a limb in predicting that he will…

    • Replies: @Seraphim
  259. Mikhail says: • Website
    @Beckow

    Although I am not really familiar with the Zakaria guy, the high-level generalisations that occupy his brain space are pathetic. What Romney’s example suggests is that already in 2012 there was a concerted effort to restart some kind of a Cold War with Russia. Now we basically have it, is anybody better off?

    Zakaria is establishment neolib.

    Regarding Russia, such thinking was already evident prior to 2012. Consider the slants in 2008 (war in the Caucasus) and what some were saying regarding Chechnya in the 1990s, as well as what to a good extent motivated neolib and neocon thinking circa 1990s Balkans.

  260. Mikhail says: • Website
    @Mr. Hack

    And as has been noted in the prior set of comments, some of what’s said of Kirill on the so-called cigarette and alcohol deals is shady.

    Filaret is 90, unlike Kirill, who is noticeably younger. Newer and younger doesn’t necessarily mean better.

    As for who should retire, Bart in Istanbul stands out, with his pope wannabe antics.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  261. Seraphim says:
    @Mr. Hack

    Canon XLV of the Holy Apostles
    “Let any Bishop, or Presbyter, or deacon that merely joins in prayer with heretics be suspended, but if he had permitted them to perform any service as Clergymen, let him be deposed.”
    ‘Byzantium’ is now in schism. The ‘Orthodox Pope’ deposed himself.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    , @AP
  262. Mr. Hack says:
    @Seraphim

    So, if Patriarch Daniel sides with the Ecumenical Patriarch, he too should ‘be deposed’ and presumably defrocked?

    You still haven’t answered my question posed to you in comment #267?

    I’m interested in knowing just how you plan to respond once your beloved Patriarch Daniel of Romania sides with Bartholomew in his gesture to grant the Ukrainian church autocephaly? And, I don’t think that I’m going too far out on a limb in predicting that he will…

    • Replies: @Seraphim
  263. Mr. Hack says:
    @Mikhail

    Were the Ecumenical Patriarchs of old also playing Pope when they initiated the autocephalic nature of 8-9 other national churches?

  264. Mikhail says: • Website

    Different circumstances.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  265. Seraphim says:
    @Mr. Hack

    If BOR sides with Fanar (which can’t be excluded, in view of her numerous ecumenistic dalliances) obviously she would sink into the cesspool of schism as well and the true Orthodox believers would be freed from any allegiance to it. It would be a tragedy, of course, that we pray it would never happen. Patriarch Daniel is not exactly ‘my beloved’ and if he does join the schism he would be regarded as a ‘heathen and publican’, as the Christ enjoins us to do with the sinful brother who don’t want to listen even to the Church.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    , @AP
  266. Mr. Hack says:
    @Seraphim

    My oh my, what a haughty and elevated opinion that you hold of yourself, to know better than the Ecumenical Patriarch and even possibly Patriarch Daniel (what an ego). Long past are the days when monks cloistered themselves off from the outside world, reciting the Jesus prayer and being centered on praying for the souls of their uncloistered brothers. Do you enjoy access to a remote control color TV and a sophisticated stereo system too, in addition to having internet access that helps to better inform you? Sounds to me like it might be you who needs to clean up his own cesspool first before lecturing others about purity and cleanliness.

    • Replies: @Seraphim
  267. Mr. Hack says:
    @Mikhail

    Each one was a ‘different circumstance’, as is this one.

    • Replies: @Mikhail
  268. Mr. Hack says:
    @Seraphim

    Baloney! The EP feels that its all above board and canonical, and I value his opinion over yours, a rank and file amateur.

  269. Seraphim says:
    @Mr. Hack

    The real problem is when Patriarchs ‘feel’ they know better than the Apostles, the Councils, and indeed than the Christ.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  270. Mr. Hack says:
    @Seraphim

    There is even a greater problem when monks think that they know better than Patriarchs, the Apostles, the Councils. and indeed Christ.

    • Replies: @Seraphim
  271. Seraphim says:
    @Mr. Hack

    The problem is when sophomoric nincompoops who didn’t get over their adolescence think that they know better than anyone else because they have access to a remote-control for color TV and to ‘sophisticated stereo systems’.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  272. Mr. Hack says:
    @Seraphim

    Indeed. I wonder just how your Abbot is able to reel in somebody like yourself who exhibits such an ostentatious and worldly lifestyle? Or perhaps the both of you take turns passing back and forth the remote-control? Sharing is a virtue, is it not? 🙂

    • Replies: @Seraphim
  273. melanf says:
    @Anon

    Mongols didn’t capture European fortifications within “a few hours”

    See post # 105. List of Hungarian / Polish cities that the Mongols captured (in a few days or even a few hours):
    Кraków Wroclaw, Рest, Buda, Arad, Pereg, Egress, Temesvar, Gyulafehervar, Varadinov,Banska Stiavnica, Pukanec, Krupin Esztergom, Swac, Drivasto and Zagreb

    And it was a cavalry raid of small forces of Mongols, not the invasion of the main forces of the Empire with systematic sieges of fortresses.

    Fortifications in this period could take decades to build. If they were going to be lost in “a few hours” that was decades of wasted effort.

    The Mamluks (using the same siege technology used by the Mongols) systematically captured the strongest fortresses of Europeans in Palestine. This shows the fate of the most powerful European fortresses in the case of a full-fledged Mongolian invasion in Europe

  274. melanf says:
    @Anon

    Can you share the Mongol-era history of the forts you posted.

    Taken by storm in 1239. Details of the assault are unknown.

  275. Seraphim says:
    @Mr. Hack

    You are hopelessly childish. Your place is in a kindergarten.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  276. Mr. Hack says:
    @Seraphim

    And you are hopelessly wrong. 🙁

  277. @Beckow

    Butina was charged for being ‘politically active’ while in US.

    Even more dastardly, of trying to create friendly relations between Russia and the US. Citing the New York Times again (“Maria Butina Pleads Guilty to Role in a Russian Effort to Influence Conservatives”):

    As part of the deal, Ms. Butina admitted to being involved in an organized effort, backed by Russian officials, to open up unofficial lines of communication with influential Americans in the N.R.A. and in the Republican Party, and to win them over to the idea of Russia as a friend, not a foe.

    She openly advocated Russia-friendly policies and closer connections between her homeland and the United States in speeches and during her time at American University in Washington, where she earned a master’s degree.

    Beginning in 2015, prosecutors said in the plea deal, Ms. Butina “agreed and conspired” with Mr. Torshin and Mr. Erickson . . . to infiltrate the Republican Party and the N.R.A. and to promote Russia-friendly policies on behalf of the Kremlin . . . Yet even as prosecutors secured Ms. Butina’s conviction and cooperation, they faced questions about their initial portrayal of Ms. Butina as something like a character out of “Red Sparrow,” the spy thriller about a Russian femme fatale.

    Prosecutors had already been forced to back off the most salacious accusations against Ms. Butina — that she used sex as spycraft — and acknowledged in court filings this week that she genuinely wanted a graduate degree, and was not simply posing as a student to live in the United States. [Note for AP] They also dropped accusations of her being in contact with Russian intelligence agencies, and that she was only using Mr. Erickson to gain access to other influential Americans.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/13/us/politics/butina-guilty.html

  278. Mikhail says: • Website
    @Mr. Hack

    Each one was a ‘different circumstance’, as is this one.

    Extremely different, which includes an unpopular president Poroshenko, taking a state interference on a church matter and nationalist path, along with Filaret to wipe-out any UOC ties with the MP – something that many in Ukraine don’t want.

    That last point also concerns a church that has cult murals in a church lauding the likes of Filaret and the Nazi Azov logo, along with a mural depicting righteous sorts pummeling a two headed eagle.

    That’s a church for Svidos and not for Ukrainians who don’t have Svido views of Russia.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  279. @Mr. Hack

    Here in the West, due to the fact that so many early emigrants were from Western Ukraine, the term ‘pierogi’ stuck.

    Exactly my point. You’re a Western brainless idiot who uses Polish words while pretending you are “Ukrainian”. (WTF)

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  280. @Mr. Hack

    the Ukrainian church is at last reuniting with Byzantium

    You’re right, the history and culture of Ukrainians clearly shows they are long-lost brothers of the Byzantiumine people. Clearly they should be in one church!

  281. Mr. Hack says:
    @Mikhail

    something that many in Ukraine don’t want.

    They can go to their own churches, ‘The Russian Orthodox Church in Ukraine’ and those that don’t want to go there should go to the ‘The Orthodox Church of Ukraine’. Protestant denominations are also represented within Ukraine. It’ called ‘freedom of religious expression’.

    Are you suggesting that the new ‘Orthodox church in Ukraine’ be outlawed? Go wherever you want or stay at home, that’s what I say!

    • Replies: @Mikhail
  282. Mr. Hack says:
    @anonymous coward

    I’m your worst nighmare! 🙂

    (BTW, in my home where I grew up we called them varenyki. I never heard the word ‘pierogi’ until I was about 10 years old and started to associate with children of emigrant children from Galicia. Now, and I smarter by your standards? :-))

  283. Mikhail says: • Website
    @Mr. Hack

    You don’t choose the name of the UOC which is loosely affiliated with the MP.

    Likewise, the Belarusian Orthodox Church is loosely affiliated with the MP as is the ROCOR.

    Contrary to your suggestion, there has been an ongoing effort by the likes of Poroshenko and Filaret to eliminate the aforementioned UOC.

  284. Old Jew says:
    @AP

    Dear Mr. AP

    Your text contains:

    ” Galician Ukrainians were extremely organized under Polish occupation ”

    Did not the immigration to the USA happen under Kaiser Franz Joseph ?

    So what Polish occupations before 1914?

    • Replies: @AP
  285. Old Jew says:
    @reiner Tor

    My Hungarian stepmother was frequently making some sweets/pastry she named “Zherbo” (if my ears serve/recolect/ me right)

    but the fact,

    that there existed in Budapest a cafe with the French name Gerbeaux, before 1940, is indeed a pleasant surprise and might explain the name of that sweet.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
  286. @Old Jew

    It does explain the name! The “zserbó” was invented by Emil Gerbeaux, a Swiss chocolatier who moved to Hungary. The Gerbeaux was his confectioner shop.

    https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerbeaud_Emil?wprov=sfti1

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emil_Gerbeaud?wprov=sfti1

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    , @dried peanuts
  287. @reiner Tor

    Embarrassing. Why am I consistently writing it with an x? Never mind. Even I am not perfect.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
  288. @reiner Tor

    The cake is called phonetically zserbó.

    And I’m just reading that it might have been invented much much later. Perhaps as late as the 1950s! Amazing, the things I learn while commenting on this forum.

    https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zserb%C3%B3?wprov=sfti1

  289. AP says:
    @Old Jew

    Immigration began under Austria but continued afterwards. Galicians first became well-organized in the 19th century but this continued into the 20th. By the time the last large wave moved West after World War II it was a very efficient anti-assimilationist machine.

  290. AP says:
    @bj

    Are you a criminal, sovok, or both?

    • Replies: @Seraphim
  291. AP says:
    @reiner Tor

    Good points all. As I wrote more than once, each of the facts about Butina, alone, mean nothing and can reasonably be construed as innocent. It is only when they all come together that the picture becomes troublesome and she becomes a legitimate target for investigation by authorities in the host country. It’s a circumstantial case. For example (another analogy) – someone is murdered, weapon is not found. But person X has a car like the one seen near the crime. Many people have such a car. His gun is missing, but it’s the same type as was used. Many people have such a gun. He had conflict with the victim. Victim was not popular, had many enemies. Etc. Each fact by itself is meaningless, it is when they all come together that you have a case.

    Butina pled guilty to ” to conspiracy to act as an illegal foreign agent in the United States.”

    The facts seem to match that plea.

    Also – my comment is based on the assumption that the evidence against her as reported is not fake. Obviously if it was planted it’s another story. The arguments for her innocence also assume the facts are reported accurately.

    you never answered that point I made regarding the American guy who was financing a political party in Hungary and then got further involved when paying some badly behaving Gypsies a free vacation. He was never put into custody, and it would have been a scandal if he was. He might have had lunches with American diplomats.

    I’m sorry could you repeat the original point (if not I will look for it later, I don’t have much time now).

  292. AP says:
    @reiner Tor

    Was this the comment?

    I’ve known an American guy (a businessman) who was financing a political party in Hungary (again, as far as I know, totally innocently), and I’m sure he never thought about having to register as some kind of foreign agent anywhere. It’s just normal for people to come to free countries (maybe the PRC or Syria are different, with Russia somewhere in between) and expect to be able to engage in politics without much bureaucracy. You certainly wouldn’t expect to be put behind bars for several years (and solitary confinement for at least six months) for such activities.

    America and Hungary don’t have an adversarial relationship, which may make a difference. (I don’t USA would go after a British or especially an Israeli Butina). But image there was a bad relationship between the two countries:

    Was he working on his behalf but on behalf of America? That is, was the purpose of his party some pro-American project that he agreed with, or some personal issue unrelated to American interests?

    Was he coordinating his activities with political figures back home?

    Had he been caught meeting with someone believed by the Hungarian security services to be an American intelligence agent?

    When his place was searched, were documents such as FBI or CIA application inquiries found?

    Also, of course, she was not in solitary confinement for 6 months as AK stated, but for 67 days split into increments.

  293. Seraphim says:
    @AP

    bj stands for ‘blow-job’, doesn’t it? He knows something.

  294. AP says:
    @Mikhail

    Alexander Pochinok who was the minister of taxes and levies (1999-2000), said in 2009 that Kirill had no involvement in the violations.

    LOL, Kirrill was being defended by a corrupt Yeltsin-era government minister in charge of taxes.

    The accusation about him being a KGB agent is unproven crock

    Yeah, Soviet-era Churchman (already KGB-affiliated) sent to work abroad wasn’t working for Soviet intelligence. Very funny.

    :::::::::::::::::

    So to reiterate: servant of atheist anti-Christian Soviet State turned cigarette smuggler on the one hand, Patriarch of Constantinople on the other. Which is the face of real Christianity?

    • Replies: @Mikhail
    , @Gerard2
  295. AP says:
    @Seraphim

    Looks like Romanian Orthodox Church supports Constantinople:

    https://risu.org.ua/en/index/all_news/orthodox/orthodox_world/73660/

    On these days, large-scale church celebrations take place on the occasion of the dedication of the National Cathedral – the newly built Romanian Patriarchate Cathedral. The event is dedicated to the 100th anniversary of the unification of the Romanian lands in 1918 and the formation of a modern Romanian state – this anniversary is celebrated throughout the year.

    Patriarch Bartholomew arrived at the invitation of Patriarch Daniel of Romania to lead the church dedication ceremony.

    On November 24th, Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew, before the meeting of the Holy Synod of the Romanian Church, once again emphasized that the Mother Church of Constantinople decided to grant autocephaly to the Church in Ukraine. The patriarch reminded that out of 14 Local Churches, nine received the autocephalous status through the decision of the Ecumenical Patriarchate, including the Romanian Church.

    Archbishop Yevstratiy (Zorya), spokesperson of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church-Kyiv Patriarchate, commented on this event: “Thus, in the context of the crisis in relations between Moscow and Constantinople, the two Churches show unity – just as it was the case in 2016, when the Romanian Patriarch’s position in favor of immediate conduct of the Pan-Orthodox Council contributed to the success of the case. Thus, on the eve of important events for Ukraine — the adoption of the Tomos of autocephaly expected next week during the session of the Holy Synod of the Ecumenical Patriarchate; and the subsequent Unification Council – the Ecumenical Patriarch demonstrates support for his position on the part of one of the largest Local Churches – the Romanian Orthodox Church.

    • Replies: @Mikhail
  296. AP says:
    @Seraphim

    http://www.holytrinitymission.org/books/english/cannons_apostles_rudder.htm

    A Bishop, or Presbyter, or Deacon must not undertake worldly cares. If he does, let him be deposed from office.

    Does this make Kirill the cigarette smuggler worthy of being deposed from office?

    ::::::::::::::::::

    There are two issues here:

    1. The issue of Filaret’s excommunication.

    2. Whether Ukraine really was Moscow’s territory or whether all along Moscow was only granted permission to administer it.

    Issue 1:

    If any Bishop excommunicates any Presbyter or Deacon, these men must not be incardinated by anyone else but the one who excommunicated them, unless by a coincidence the Bishop who excommunicated them should decease.

    But there is a further caveat:

    But according to the Nomicon of Photius, Title and ch. 9, and the commentator Balsamon, if by chance a bishop or presbyter should excommunicate anyone from communion (whether it be that of the mysteries, according to Balsamon and Blastaris, or even from standing together with the faithful and from prayer in church) without any canonical and reasonable cause, the excommunication is to be removed by the senior priest, while the bishop or presbyter who imposed the excommunication is to be excommunicated by his superior for as long a period of time as the latter deems sufficient.

    So was there a canonical and reasonable cause for Filaret’s excommunication? Can someone excommunicate someone merely for political reasons? Because he simply doesn’t like someone? Because he didn’t someone money? Etc?

    According to Constantinople, “Anathema is excommunication because of violation of certain church canons. Mazepa did not do this. Similarly, Patriarch Filaret did not do anything that would violate Orthodox dogmas. In any of his decisions he did not infringe on the Orthodox doctrine. Thus, the anathema, which was imposed on him in 1997, is unfair.”

    The official statement of his excommunication states it was not done for political purposes. This doesn’t mean it wasn’t.

    This is unrelated but interesting:

    If any Bishop, or Presbyter, or Deacon, or anyone at all on the sacerdotal list, abstains from marriage, or meat, or wine, not as a matter of mortification, but out of an abhorrence thereof, forgetting that all things are exceedingly good, and that God made man male and female, and blasphemously misrepresenting God’s work of creation, either let him mend his ways or let him be deposed from office and expelled from the Church. Let a layman be treated similarly.

    Looks like vegetarians and vegans get kicked out of the Church.

    • Replies: @Seraphim
  297. Mikhail says: • Website
    @AP

    Looks like wishful thinking Svido spin on your part. Nothing is said by the Romanian Orthodx Church on the UOC matter at issue. There’s such a thing as folks taking a neutral stance along the lines (in this instance) of not supporting Bart’s UOC stance, while not breaking relations with him.

    Somewhat reminded of when Yugoslavia condemned the 1980 Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, while not joining the Carter regime led boycott of that Olympiad.

  298. Mikhail says: • Website
    @AP

    “LOL”, as you fail to prove that Kirill was a cigarette smuggler and KGB agent.

    Troll on fool.

  299. Seraphim says:
    @AP

    As I understand, the allegations of cigarette smuggling by Kirill is for you a matter settled once and for all. No need of proofs.
    ‘Patriarch’ Filaret might not have violated Orthodox dogmas or done something against Orthodox ‘doctrine’ (that would be heresy), but he did violate Orthodox canons (schism).
    Ukraine was ecclesiastical territory of the Moscow Patriarchate, you like it or not. Moscow was not ‘granted permission’ to administer it, but the Ecumenical Patriarch recognized in 1686 this right put in abeyance by the chaotic canonical situation that ensued after the fall of the ‘Metropolia of Kiev, Galich and All Rus’ into the heresy of Unia (as a matter of fact this Metropolia was Uniate from its uncanonical creation by the Uniate Ecumenical Patriarch Gregory III Mammas in 1458), redressing the normal canonical order (the Metropolia of Kiev and All Rus moved to Vladimir in 1299 and then to Moscow in 1325).
    That the BOR chose the wrong side, that doesn’t prove me wrong.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    , @AP
  300. Mr. Hack says:
    @Seraphim

    As a similar brouhaha is looming in neighboring Moldova, as is already being amicably addressed in Ukraine, I wonder whether or not your pronounced preferences for ROC led churches extends to the Moldovan Orthodox Church, or perhaps to the Orthodox Church of Bessarabia that is in subordination to the Romanian Orthodox Church? I wonder if your thought process here is consistent, or whether you veer towards the Romanian Patriarch’s stance? 🙂

  301. AP says:
    @Seraphim

    As I understand, the allegations of cigarette smuggling by Kirill is for you a matter settled once and for all. No need of proofs.

    There is plenty of proofs and it is well known. Only objection came form a corrupt Yeltsin-era tax official.

    ‘Patriarch’ Filaret might not have violated Orthodox dogmas or done something against Orthodox ‘doctrine’ (that would be heresy)

    Correct.

    but he did violate Orthodox canons (schism). Ukraine was ecclesiastical territory of the Moscow Patriarchate, you like it or not.

    You are mistaken.

    Moscow was not ‘granted permission’ to administer it, but the Ecumenical Patriarch recognized in 1686 this right put in abeyance by the chaotic canonical situation that ensued after the fall of the ‘Metropolia of Kiev, Galich and All Rus’ into the heresy of Unia (as a matter of fact this Metropolia was Uniate from its uncanonical creation by the Uniate Ecumenical Patriarch Gregory III Mammas in 1458), redressing the normal canonical order (the Metropolia of Kiev and All Rus moved to Vladimir in 1299 and then to Moscow in 1325).

    Metropolia of Kiev and All Rus that moved from what is now Ukraine to what is now Russia was under Constantinople. In 1448 it split from Constantinople on its own, without permission. This was limited to lands outside Ukraine. Areas out of its grasp remained under Constantinople, as always.

    When in 1589 Moscow was recognized as a Patriarchate by Constantinople, its recognized territory did not include what is now Ukraine, which continued to be under Constantinople just as the Church in Moscow had been under Constantinople but only the territory controlled by the Russian Tsar at the time. When the Orthodox Church in Ukraine joined Rome, Constantinople created a new one in Ukraine, which was its territory. This new one is the one that was forcibly placed under Moscow administration in 1686. However, although this Church was placed under Moscow’s administration due to Russia controlling the region, the territory was not ceded to Moscow as canonical territory. Accordingly, as these territories left Moscow’s grasp in the 20th century they were removed from Moscow’s administration. So for example the Polish Orthodox Church centered in Volhynia was removed from Moscow’s administration and was granted autocephaly by Constantinople in 1924 and returned to being under Constantinople.

    Interview with Constantinople representative:

    https://panorthodoxcemes.blogspot.com/2018/09/interview-archbishop-job-getcha-for.html

    It should be emphasized that ecclesiastical jurisdiction over Ukraine belongs exclusively to the Ecumenical Patriarchate. When the Orthodox Church in Russia received the status of a patriarchate in 1589-1590, the Metropolis of Kiev (in the Polish-Lithuanian state, with its see in Kiev) remained in the jurisdiction of Constantinople. After left-bank Ukraine was annexed to the Moscow state after the Pereyaslav Council (1654), at a time when there were constant wars between the Turkish and Muscovite states (from 1676), and when, after the Kievan throne had remained vacant for a long time (from 1681), the patriarch of Moscow unlawfully ordained Gedeon Svyatopolk Chetvertynsky at the request of Hetman Ivan Samoilovich (in 1685), then, in the end, in 1686, the patriarch of Moscow received from Ecumenical Patriarch Dionysius IV only the permission to ordain the Metropolitan of Kiev, who was to continue to commemorate the Ecumenical Patriarch and remain his Exarch. It turns out that because of the political conditions the Metropolis of Kiev fell only into the administration of the Orthodox Church in Russia, but no transfer of the Metropolis of Kiev to Moscow happened in 1686, as it was emphasized by the tomos of the autocephaly of the Orthodox Church in Poland (1924), which states that this autocephaly is given “by listening to the loud voice of the canonical duty, that the care of the Holy Orthodox Churches that are in trouble is laid on our Holy Ecumenical Throne; seeing that history also testifies in favour of the above (because it is written that the alienation from our throne of the Metropolis of Kiev and its dependent Orthodox Churches of Lithuania and Poland, and the same way, their attachment to the Holy Church of Moscow, from the very beginning was not carried out at all in agreement with legal canonical prescriptions, as well as not complying with what was jointly declared with regard to the complete ecclesiastical self-sufficiency of the Kiev Metropolitan, who was the exarch of the Ecumenical Throne.

    Therefore, when Ukraine is no longer a part of the Russian Empire (as well as of the Soviet Union), and when it endures an ecclesiastical schism for almost 30 years, through which millions of people are outside the canonical Church, and with which, to this day, the Orthodox Church in Russia (that is, the Moscow Patriarchate) is not able to correct it, the Ecumenical Patriarchate is obliged to take appropriate measures in accordance with its prerogatives in order to ensure ecclesial unity. At the same time, it should be emphasized that it does not interfere in the affairs of another local Church, but acts on his canonical territory – on the territory of the Kievan Metropolis.

    • Agree: Mr. Hack
    • Replies: @Mikhail
    , @Mikhail
    , @Seraphim
  302. Mikhail says: • Website
    @AP

    There is plenty of proofs and it is well known. Only objection came form a corrupt Yeltsin-era tax official.

    So-called Svido proofs on a subject matter like this are often not actual proof, as is the case in this instance – something that the not so Russia friendly English Wiki appears to concur.

    The rest of your screed is subjective Svido spin like what is and isn’t legal .

  303. Mikhail says: • Website
    @AP

    There is plenty of proofs and it is well known. Only objection came form a corrupt Yeltsin-era tax official.

    So-called Svido proofs on a subject matter like this are often not actual proof, as is the case in this instance – something that the not so Russia friendly English Wiki appears to concur.

    The rest of your screed is subjective Svido spin like what is and isn’t legal .

    • Replies: @AP
  304. Seraphim says:
    @AP

    The ‘split without permission’ of 1448 was due to the fall into heresy of Constantinople. The Russian Church never accepted the Unia of Florence and deposed Metropolitan Isidore, for dogmatic and doctrinal reasons. It nevertheless, did not ‘split’ forthwith, but tried to bring back Constantinople from the abyss. Only after seven years of playing for time, a Sobor of the Russian Bishops elected Iona as Metropolitan of Kiev and All Rus, still hoping for its confirmation by Constantinople. The situation was aggravated by the fall of the Empire.
    Moscow was not recognized as Patriarchate by Constantinople, but by all the Orthodox Churches.
    The left bank was not ‘annexed’ by the Moscow state, but came of its own accord, at the Cossacks request.

    • Replies: @AP
  305. Gerard2 says:
    @AP

    So to reiterate: servant of atheist anti-Christian Soviet State turned cigarette smuggler on the one hand,

    So to reitirate…you are a fantasist retard who spends an abnormal amount of time on here ,now trying to regurgitate, as your own, a lie that you have read off some random dickhead North American Banderite blog ( the “cigarette smuggling” BS) as you cant speak Russian or Ukrainian …even more bizarre considering Filaret’s REAL criminal and devious actions and servitude of the same state for a longer period…even more ridiculous considering the number of Russian Orthodox people in Turkey dwarfs those or Bartholomew in Turkey itself you ignorant fuckwit…..even more ridiculous considering the tallying of this with a series of moves by the Americans in this area that have almost certainly involved bribery and threats to the church itself and to the greek state….also even more ridiculous because “randomly” Filaret just happens to randomly award things to former CIA agents this month for “supporting the Ukrainian Orthodox church( a “church” naturally for this fake state, founded on the American east coast)

    ….also even more ridiculous considering the most blatant and open interference of church and state in setting up this fraud……….even more ridiculous that it based on the election campaign of a fake christian ( a jew called Valtsman) who got a start-up for his corrupt money from his corrupt mafia scumbag father ( who served several years in jail)…and is now a grandfather to Russian children…something he was saying should ban people from office the other day….such is the lying and moronism of this dipshit you idiot

  306. AP says:
    @Seraphim

    The ‘split without permission’ of 1448 was due to the fall into heresy of Constantinople. The Russian Church never accepted the Unia of Florence and deposed Metropolitan Isidore, for dogmatic and doctrinal reasons. It nevertheless, did not ‘split’ forthwith, but tried to bring back Constantinople from the abyss. Only after seven years of playing for time, a Sobor of the Russian Bishops elected Iona as Metropolitan of Kiev and All Rus

    Did so without Constantinople’s permission, and continued to function on its own even after Constantinople rejected union with Rome. Meanwhile the Church in what is now Ukraine did not join Moscow but stayed with Constantinople the whole time. When independent Moscow was reconciled with Constantinople, it no longer included Ukrainian territory which had never left Constantinople.

    Moscow was not recognized as Patriarchate by Constantinople, but by all the Orthodox Churches.

    Sure. And its borders were the borders of the Muscovite Tsardom, and did not include what is now Ukraine.

    The left bank was not ‘annexed’ by the Moscow state, but came of its own accord, at the Cossacks request.

    Of its own accord it entered as a vassal, and was later annexed.

    • Replies: @AP
    , @Seraphim
  307. AP says:
    @Mikhail

    There is plenty of proofs and it is well known. Only objection came form a corrupt Yeltsin-era tax official.

    So-called Svido proofs on a subject matter

    If you knew either Russian or Ukrainian you would see that the proofs all came from Russian sources that had nothing to do with Ukrainians. Guy was a well-known tobacco smuggler. The only possible positive spin was that some of the proceeds went to restore church buildings.

    • Replies: @Mikhail
  308. AP says:
    @AP

    The left bank was not ‘annexed’ by the Moscow state, but came of its own accord, at the Cossacks request.

    Of its own accord it entered as a vassal, and was later annexed.

    And btw the local Orthodox Church was opposed to this:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sylvester_Kosiv

  309. Mikhail says: • Website
    @AP

    Fluent Russian speakers with a keen knowledge on the subject have confirmed that your proofs are put mildly suspect.

    That some Russians take to your stance is no surprise.

  310. Seraphim says:
    @AP

    So, what was the meaning of ‘All Rus’? Did include ‘what is today Ukraine’?
    The ‘Church in what is now Ukraine did not join Moscow’, because it was in Poland, which was constantly at war with Russia. Joining Moscow would have been considered an act of treason. Not to mention the constant pressure from the Uniates.

    • Replies: @AP
    , @Mr. Hack
  311. AP says:
    @Seraphim

    The ‘Church in what is now Ukraine did not join Moscow’, because it was in Poland, which was constantly at war with Russia. Joining Moscow would have been considered an act of treason. Not to mention the constant pressure from the Uniates.

    In the 15th century it was part of Lithuania, and the Orthodox of what is now Ukraine (and Belarus) were enemies of the Orthodox of what is now Russia. Here is a famous example:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Konstanty_Ostrogski

    He started his military career under king John I of Poland. He took part in successful campaigns against the Tatars and Muscovy. For his victory near Ochakiv against the forces of Mehmet Girey he was awarded with the title of Grand Hetman of Lithuania. He was the first person to receive this title. However, during a war with Muscovy he was defeated in the Battle of Vedrosha (1500) and held captive for three years. In 1503 he managed to escape and joined king Sigismund I the Old, who allowed him to resume his post as a Hetman. As one of the main military leaders (alongside Grand Hetmans of the Crown Mikołaj Firlej and Mikołaj Kamieniecki) of the alliance he continued to wage war against Muscovy and in 1512 achieved a great victory against the Tatars in the Battle of Wiśniowiec.

    In 1514 another war with Muscovy started and Ostrogski became the commander in chief of all the Polish and Lithuanian forces (amounting to up to 35,000 soldiers). Among his subordinates were Jerzy Radziwiłł, Janusz Świerczowski, Witold Sampoliński and the future Hetman of the Crown Jan Tarnowski. On 8 September 1514 he achieved a significant victory in the Battle of Orsha, defeating an army of Vasili III. However, in 1517 his attempt to besiege the Russian fortress of Opochka became a serious defeat that destroyed any hopes to reconquer Smolensk.

    He died in 1530 as a well-respected military commander. Despite his steady loyalty to the Catholic monarch as well as an old feud with an Orthodox Muscovy, Ostrogski himself remained a devout Orthodox in traditions of his family. He gave generously for construction of Orthodox churches and sponsored the creation of many church-affiliated schools for the orthodox children. As one of the wealthiest Orthodox nobles he was buried in the Kiev Pechersk Lavra in Kiev.

    ::::::::::::

    At any rate, these are explanations for the fact that when Moscow took itself out of Constantinople’s orbit the Church in what is now Ukraine did not follow, but stayed. And when Moscow and Constantinople reconciled in the 16th century, Church territories remained that way.

    • Replies: @Mikhail
  312. Mr. Hack says:
    @Seraphim

    As a similar brouhaha is looming in neighboring Moldova, as is already being amicably addressed in Ukraine, I wonder whether or not your pronounced preferences for ROC led churches extends to the Moldovan Orthodox Church, or perhaps to the Orthodox Church of Bessarabia that is in subordination to the Romanian Orthodox Church? I wonder if your thought process here is consistent, or whether you veer towards the Romanian Patriarch’s stance?

    • Replies: @Seraphim
  313. @reiner Tor

    Looks like the Marjolaine/Opera cake which would fit with a french/swiss confectioner. Different ingredients?

  314. Mikhail says: • Website
    @AP

    Such a beloved hero of yours from the past is in overall terms nowhere near as popular when compared to those in (what’s now) Ukraine who supported Russia.

    BTW, Russia had some Polish stooges as well. For that matter, there were pro-Russian and pro-Soviet Poles. Just saying that though without a complete enough context can lead to inaccuracy.

    The Istanbul (Constantinople) based Bart is of a limited relevance, as shown by the stances taken among the national OC churches.

  315. Seraphim says:
    @Mr. Hack

    You want to know whether the ethnophyletism that you attribute to me would supersede my Orthodoxy. I assure you that not.
    That’s not to say that the canonical situation in Moldova is not without its own problems, or that the Romanian Church is right, no matter what. But I hope these situations will be solved amicably in a Christian way that would not lead to schism and ‘war between brothers’ (that’s what Christians pray for), which is precisely the case in Ukraine, with its display of un-Christian hatred.

    • Replies: @AP
    , @Mr. Hack
  316. AP says:
    @Seraphim

    You want to know whether the ethnophyletism that you attribute to me would supersede my Orthodoxy. I assure you that not.

    Good.

    But I hope these situations will be solved amicably in a Christian way that would not lead to schism and ‘war between brothers’ (that’s what Christians pray for), which is precisely the case in Ukraine, with its display of un-Christian hatred.

    There is at least as much, if not more, hatred directed towards Ukrainians than vice versa.

  317. Mr. Hack says:
    @Seraphim

    You want to know whether the ethnophyletism that you attribute to me would supersede my Orthodoxy. I assure you that not.

    No, actually I wasn’t interested in your level of ethnophyletism, but was interested in knowing (as I stated) where you stand on the current issue, as presented today? You are knowledgeable enough to make strong pronouncements regarding the situation in Ukraine, that is actually very similar to the one in Moldava, yet try to wiggle your way out of directly answering this question. Hoping for an amicable resolution, although admirable, doesn’t address the issues at hand today, that I’m sure that you fully comprehend. The two churches are currently at odds one with another; one is backed by the Russian Patriarch, the other by the Romanian one. With whom do you currently stand?

  318. Seraphim says:

    I was clear about my position. I stand for an Orthodox solution, i.e. through a general Synod which would redefine the canonical boundaries and jurisdictions in accord with the new political and administrative realities.

    Until then the position of the Romanian Orthodox Church is the only workable one: “a peaceful coexistence and brotherly cooperation between the two Orthodox Metropolises which operate under the jurisdiction of the two sister Orthodox Patriarchies”. The situation is somewhat different from the one obtaining in Ukraine. BOR is already a recognized Autocephalous Church.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    , @AP
  319. Mr. Hack says:
    @Seraphim

    The history of world Orthodoxy is full of situations where once unrecognized churches have later become recognized. Russian sources claim that the Russian Orthodox church of the MP was established in Moldova in 1831, whereas the Romanian church appeared there only after 1991, in effect poaching on lands where a ‘legitimate’ Orthodox church already existed, very reminiscent of the situation in Ukraine, as seen through the eyes of the MP led church. The ‘peaceful coexistence’ of the two Orthodox churches that you point to in Moldova by analogy already exists in Ukraine. At least the new autocepholous church has not pronounced any banning of the one led ultimately by the Moscow Patriarch, and neither has the government. Both churches have the right to co-exist, as you have indicated being a solution in Moldova, until things can be better sorted out.

    • Replies: @Seraphim
  320. AP says:
    @Seraphim

    A Greek website has a defense of Constantinople’s moves, referencing appropriate laws (if you don’t know Greek, like me, googletranslate has a clumsy translation):

    https://fanarion.blogspot.com/2018/12/blog-post_22.html

    A Ukrainian website translated it:

    https://cerkvarium.org/novyny/pomistni-tserkvy/list-do-mitropolita-antoniya-pakanicha-vasha-gostinnist-do-pomisnikh-tserkov-vimagae-teper-plati.html

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  321. Mr. Hack says:
    @AP

    An excellent article in English that puts forth the canonical and theological reasonings concerning the legitimacy of the Ukrainian Tomos is put forth by “the renowned Orthodox theologian and hierarch of the Patriarchate of Constantinople, Archbishop Job (Getcha) of Telmessos (Geneva, Switzerland). He was born in 1974 in Montreal, Canada, in a Ukrainian emigrant family. Doctor of theology, professor of the Institute of Superior Studies of Orthodox Theology at the Orthodox Centre of the Ecumenical Patriarchate in Chambésy and of the Catholic University of Paris (France), permanent representative of the Ecumenical Patriarchate at the World Council of Churches in Geneva, co-chair of the Joint International Commission on Theological Dialogue between the Orthodox and the Roman Catholic Churches. With the blessing of the Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew, he was one of the main spokesmen of the Holy and Great Council of the Orthodox Church in Crete from 19 to 26 June 2016. He is fluent in six languages: English, French, Greek, Ukrainian, Russian and Italian. He is deeply knowledgeable in Ukrainian church history. He defended his doctoral dissertation on the topic “Liturgical reform of Metropolitan Cyprian of Kiev (1330 – 1406 AD)”.” This guy might even be more erudite than Seraphim. 🙂

    https://risu.org.ua/en/index/expert_thought/interview/72711/

    • Replies: @Seraphim
  322. Seraphim says:
    @Mr. Hack

    The situation in Moldova is not the same as in Ukraine. There are two autocephalous Churches in dispute over a territory which belonged alternatively to Romania and Russia and who created separate jurisdictions and who coexist, albeit uncomfortably. Romanian Church was never subordinated to the Russian one. ‘Ukrainian’ Church was. Her ‘Raskol’ is not motivated by any canonical infringements, but for purely political, nationalistic reasons. It is not that it wants to be ‘independent’, but that she wants to give a bloody nose to ‘Putin’s church’ and ‘Putin’s Russia’.

    • Replies: @AP
    , @Mr. Hack
  323. Seraphim says:
    @Mr. Hack

    What would you expect from a bishop ‘born into a Ukrainian family’ in Canada, an ecumenist and crypto-Uniate (professor at Catholic Univerities, co-chair of the Joint International Commission on Theological Dialogue between the Orthodox and the Roman Catholic Churches) speaking ‘pro domo’ in a very convoluted way? BTW, he calls Bukovina in 1686 ‘Ukrainian territory’, when in fact it was still belonging to Moldova (but he calls ‘Ukrainian’ territories which at the time were in Poland, Hungary, Crimea and Khan’s ‘Ukraine’). He speaks of ‘Bukovinian metropolitans’ for a time when there was only the Metropolia of Moldova. Obviously, he does know things that poor Seraphim doesn’t!

    • Replies: @AP
    , @Mr. Hack
  324. AP says:
    @Seraphim

    Romanian Church was never subordinated to the Russian one. ‘Ukrainian’ Church was. Her ‘Raskol’ is not motivated by any canonical infringements

    Well, since Ukrainian territory that had always been under Constantinople from the adoption of Christianity was only given to the Russian Church to administer while the Russian state controlled it (under duress, moreover), yet the Russian Church insists on still controlling it 30 years after this condition no longer exists, it would appear that the Russian Church is guilty of infringements.

    but for purely political, nationalistic reasons

    So controlling a Church in another country whose own country has a history of invading and dominating is not done for political or nationalistic reasons but wanting to remove one’s Church from under the control of this other country and back home to its traditional mother is “purely” political and nationalistic? Is that why the new Church is called the Orthodox Church in Ukraine and not the Ukrainian Orthodox Church?

    It is not that it wants to be ‘independent’, but that she wants to give a bloody nose to ‘Putin’s church’ and ‘Putin’s Russia’.

    While this factor is also present, the most important one is to bring 20 million or so believers back to Orthodoxy by restoring the Church in Ukraine to its traditional place within Constantinople.

    BTW, here is a nice article about a 17th century churchman in Ukraine, highlighting the Church’s negative stance towards Moscow:

    https://day.kyiv.ua/en/article/culture/kyiv-archimandrite

  325. AP says:
    @Seraphim

    BTW, he calls Bukovina in 1686 ‘Ukrainian territory’, when in fact it was still belonging to Moldova

    You mean this phrase?

    “That is, the act of 1686 concerned the Ukrainian territories of the Hetmanate, which were temporarily part of the Russian state, but had no canonical influence on other Ukrainian territories, in particular, Transcarpathia, Bukovina, Podolia, Galicia, Volynia, Khan’s Ukraine in the south and Crimea. All these territories continued to remain under the canonical omophorion of the Ecumenical Patriarchate.”

    Perhaps because English is not your native language you did not understand – he did not mean that in 1686 Bukovyna was a Ukrainian territory, or that in 1686 Transcarpathia or Galicia or Khan’s areas were Ukrainian. Rather, he stated that much of the territory of the Ukrainian state (all those regions he listed) weren’t included in the 1686 deal and remained under Constantinople.

    He speaks of ‘Bukovinian metropolitans’ for a time when there was only the Metropolia of Moldova.

    For some reason English and Romanian wikis both refer to it as “Metropolis of Moldavia and Bukovina.” If he is mistaken in his wording it is a minor error.

    ::::::::::::::::::::::

    Do you have a substantive argument against what Getcha writes or do you try to nitpick details or attack him?

    Is this correct and if not why:

    “Ukraine was and remained, even after 1686, the canonical territory only of the Ecumenical Patriarchate. After Left-bank Ukraine joined the Moscow State in the middle of the 17th century, the Kievan Church was divided into parts between different rival countries (Russia, Poland and Turkey), which is was why they could not choose a single Metropolitan for a long time in Kiev. In this difficult situation, the Ecumenical Patriarch, in order not to leave the entire Ukrainian flock without archpastoral care, part of the Kievan Church in the territories subordinate to Russia were transferred to the Moscow Patriarchate in 1686 for temporary guardianship, in order to help him put a metropolitan in Kiev and bishops in the other dioceses of Left Bank Ukraine (Cossack Hetmanate). At the same time, the principle requirement was that the Metropolitans of Kiev continued to remain autonomous from Moscow as Exarchs of the Ecumenical Patriarch and that they would commemorate his name without exception at all divine services. That was in no way the transfer of the Metropolis of Kiev under the authority of the Moscow Patriarchs. For such a transmission would be anti-canonical, since in the letter of establishment of the Moscow Patriarchate the limits of canonical influences of the Moscow Patriarchs were recognized at the borders of the Moscow State in 1589. And these limits did not in any way include the Kievan Metropolis, which included, under the omophorion of the Ecumenical Patriarchate, Ukraine, Belarus, Lithuania and Poland.”

    Is this correct and if not why:

    “It is important to emphasize that Orthodox Ukrainians in Bukovina, Transcarpathia and Galicia for a long time remained under the auspices of the Ecumenical Patriarchate. These lands became part of the Moscow Patriarchate only in the middle of the twentieth century during the Soviet occupation of Western Ukraine, and their subjection by force to Moscow was never recognized by the Ecumenical Throne.”

    • Replies: @Seraphim
  326. Seraphim says:
    @AP

    Mitropolia Moldovei si Bucovinei is the present name of what was the ‘Metropolia of Moldovlahia’ (the Metropolitan was “митрополит Молдовлахийскый”).
    The name of Bukovina came into official use in 1775 with the anexation of what was called ‘Tara de Sus’ (the Upper Country) of the principality of Moldavia to Austria. Austrians created that name. To speak about Bucovina before the Austrian annexation is an anacronism. Its use by the erudite Archbishop is not a minor error, but an egregious one, if it is not deliberately misleading.

    • Replies: @AP
  327. Mr. Hack says:
    @Seraphim

    What would you expect from a bishop ‘born into a Ukrainian family’ in Canada, an ecumenist and crypto-Uniate (professor at Catholic Univerities, co-chair of the Joint International Commission on Theological Dialogue between the Orthodox and the Roman Catholic Churches) speaking ‘pro domo’ in a very convoluted way?

    Isn’t there a direct invocation to the Allmighty during the Orthodox mass for help in reconciling the unity of all Christians into one church? Sitting on a commission that dialogues with other Christian denominations is a good thing – it’s much better than resorting to insane religious wars that dotted the European landscape for way too many centuries.

  328. Mr. Hack says:
    @Seraphim

    Well, there will also soon be (very soon) two autocephalous churches within Ukraine too that will be vying for primacy. The differences between the Moldavan and Ukrainian situations are the dates when these autocepholous churches achieved their statuses.

  329. AP says:
    @Seraphim

    You keep avoiding the most important points and questions. Why? Here they are again:

    Is this correct and if not why:

    “Ukraine was and remained, even after 1686, the canonical territory only of the Ecumenical Patriarchate. After Left-bank Ukraine joined the Moscow State in the middle of the 17th century, the Kievan Church was divided into parts between different rival countries (Russia, Poland and Turkey), which is was why they could not choose a single Metropolitan for a long time in Kiev. In this difficult situation, the Ecumenical Patriarch, in order not to leave the entire Ukrainian flock without archpastoral care, part of the Kievan Church in the territories subordinate to Russia were transferred to the Moscow Patriarchate in 1686 for temporary guardianship, in order to help him put a metropolitan in Kiev and bishops in the other dioceses of Left Bank Ukraine (Cossack Hetmanate). At the same time, the principle requirement was that the Metropolitans of Kiev continued to remain autonomous from Moscow as Exarchs of the Ecumenical Patriarch and that they would commemorate his name without exception at all divine services. That was in no way the transfer of the Metropolis of Kiev under the authority of the Moscow Patriarchs. For such a transmission would be anti-canonical, since in the letter of establishment of the Moscow Patriarchate the limits of canonical influences of the Moscow Patriarchs were recognized at the borders of the Moscow State in 1589. And these limits did not in any way include the Kievan Metropolis, which included, under the omophorion of the Ecumenical Patriarchate, Ukraine, Belarus, Lithuania and Poland.”

    Is this correct and if not why:

    “It is important to emphasize that Orthodox Ukrainians in Bukovina, Transcarpathia and Galicia for a long time remained under the auspices of the Ecumenical Patriarchate. These lands became part of the Moscow Patriarchate only in the middle of the twentieth century during the Soviet occupation of Western Ukraine, and their subjection by force to Moscow was never recognized by the Ecumenical Throne.”

    • Replies: @AP
    , @Seraphim
  330. AP says:
    @AP

    BTW, some of the same claims were ,made by Cyril Hovorun, hierarch of the Moscow Church’s Ukrainian Orthodox Church:

    http://euromaidanpress.com/2018/12/21/old-wine-in-new-bottles-how-bad-habits-derailed-ukrainian-church-unification-interview-with-cyril-hovorun/

    First, the Metropolia of Kyiv with the center in Kyiv continued to exist under the jurisdiction of Ecumenical Patriarchate more than 200 years after the Union of Ferrara-Florence. No one doubted the authority of the Ecumenical Patriarchate in Ukraine two centuries after the union. So what the Synod of the UOC MP says is an excuse, not a reason for its objections against Constantinople. Even if you take the autocephaly of the Russian Church, because it is closer in time to the events of the Ferrara-Florence council, it didn’t happen because of union. The statements like we declared our autocephaly unilaterally, uncanonically, without the consent of the Ecumenical Patriarchate, because it had fallen into union – are anachronistic.

    Why?

    The rulers of Moscow wanted autocephaly for their church for political reasons. They used political instruments, declared autocephaly unilaterally and remained in a schism with the Ecumenical Patriarchate for a long time even after the Ecumenical Patriarchate restored its Orthodox identity in the sense that it rejected the Union. Moscow still insisted that it is independent because of the Union that had happened in the past. But again, the story of Moscow’s independence is different from the transmission of Kyiv Metropolia to Moscow 200 years later. Therefore, these explanations by the Synod don’t stand up to scrutiny.

  331. Seraphim says:
    @AP

    You give yourself the answers that you want to hear. You won’t hear them from me.

    • Replies: @AP
  332. AP says:
    @Seraphim

    You are intelligent and well-informed. That’s why I am asking for you to rebut those claims. It seems you can’t, but don’t want to admit it.

    Another statement, by a hierarch of the Moscow Church in Ukraine:

    Is it correct and if not, why not?

    http://euromaidanpress.com/2018/05/18/hovorun-ukraine-autocephalous-orthodox-church/

    When the Church of Kyiv was established in the X ct., it became an integral part of the Ecumenical Patriarchate and existed as such for a long time. But after the Tatar-Mongol invasion of the XIII ct. which devastated central Kyivan Rus and divided its heritage between two emerging principalities – Moscow and Lithuania-Poland, a division emerged within the Church of Kyiv.

    “One part, as part of the Ecumenical Patriarchate, went to the northeastern part of what was then Kyivan Rus and became the Church of Moscow. In 1448, it proclaimed unilaterally, without consultations with another Church, its autocephaly, which was illegal and remained illegal for 150 years. At that time, the Church of Moscow was schismatic and not in communion with other Churches.”

    “Another part of the Church remained faithful to the Ecumenical Patriarchate till the XVII ct., and its center moved to the territories of the Polish-Lithuanian state, and then it was given to be managed by Moscow, remaining an integral part of the Patriarchate of Constantinople. At that time, the Moscow Church was already recognized by the rest of the Churches, thanks to the effort of the Russian Tsars.”

    “It’s ironic that the Church which was uncanonical for 150 years, which separated from the canonical Church, now accuses its sister in doing the same.”

    The other questions, again:

    Is this correct and if not why:

    “Ukraine was and remained, even after 1686, the canonical territory only of the Ecumenical Patriarchate. After Left-bank Ukraine joined the Moscow State in the middle of the 17th century, the Kievan Church was divided into parts between different rival countries (Russia, Poland and Turkey), which is was why they could not choose a single Metropolitan for a long time in Kiev. In this difficult situation, the Ecumenical Patriarch, in order not to leave the entire Ukrainian flock without archpastoral care, part of the Kievan Church in the territories subordinate to Russia were transferred to the Moscow Patriarchate in 1686 for temporary guardianship, in order to help him put a metropolitan in Kiev and bishops in the other dioceses of Left Bank Ukraine (Cossack Hetmanate). At the same time, the principle requirement was that the Metropolitans of Kiev continued to remain autonomous from Moscow as Exarchs of the Ecumenical Patriarch and that they would commemorate his name without exception at all divine services. That was in no way the transfer of the Metropolis of Kiev under the authority of the Moscow Patriarchs. For such a transmission would be anti-canonical, since in the letter of establishment of the Moscow Patriarchate the limits of canonical influences of the Moscow Patriarchs were recognized at the borders of the Moscow State in 1589. And these limits did not in any way include the Kievan Metropolis, which included, under the omophorion of the Ecumenical Patriarchate, Ukraine, Belarus, Lithuania and Poland.”

    Is this correct and if not why:

    “It is important to emphasize that Orthodox Ukrainians in Bukovina, Transcarpathia and Galicia for a long time remained under the auspices of the Ecumenical Patriarchate. These lands became part of the Moscow Patriarchate only in the middle of the twentieth century during the Soviet occupation of Western Ukraine, and their subjection by force to Moscow was never recognized by the Ecumenical Throne.”

  333. Seraphim says:

    It is impossible to admit the rather childish claims that the ‘Church of Moscow’ (which was the legitimate ‘Kiev’ Church, always recognized by the ‘Mother Church’ since her physical departure from Kiev) was the one in schism in 1448. Constantinople was because of Uniatism, which was rejected by all Orthodox Churches. No ‘approval’ was necessary from the schismatics, on the contrary separation was the duty of the Orthodox. There were dogmatic reasons, not ‘canonical’ ones.
    The so-called ‘Metropolia of Kiev, Halych and All Rus’ was ‘established’ by the fugitive to Rome Uniate former Patriarch Gregory Mammas from Rome, within the Polish kingdom and the Grand Duchy of Lithuania, under the rule of metropolitan Gregory the Bulgarian (1458–1472) remained therefore in communion with the Holy See, as well as during the rule of the following metropolitan Міsail (1476–1480) and submitted to the Polish-Lithuanian rulers. It was not the continuation of the ‘Kiev’ Church, but a new creation. Only then the Moscow Church renounced the title of ‘Kiev’ not to become associated with heresy. Moreover, the fact that overnight the Ecumenical Patriarchate became dependent on an altogether non-Christian (and a overtly anti-Chriastian, at that) sovereign, practically annulled any ‘supremacy’ of the Patriarch over other Christian realms and churches.
    The ‘Kiev’ Metropolia followed its initial impetus and eventually abjured the ‘Greek Schism’ at the Union of Brest, of course without the approval of Constantinople, which had no influence . The discrimination against the Orthodox in the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth continued unabated and that was the ultimate reason for Hmelnitski’s uprising and the Pereyaslav Treaty. The turn towards Moscow was actually due to the impotence of Constantinople to protect the rights of the Orthodox against the incremental assaults of the Catholics and the corruption of the ‘Orthodox’ bishops (appointed by the Polish King). In actual fact, Poland-Lithuania was no more the ‘canonical’ territory of Constantinople. It reverted to the status of Churches in ‘barbaricum’, beyond the confines of the “Oikumene” (i.e. of the Roman Empire, which ceased to exist after the fall of Constantinople to the Ottomans) and that’s why Constantinople had only ‘Exarchs’, not exercising full authority. Any Church could establish new churches in ‘barbaricum’ and in 1620 it was the Patriarch of Jerusalem who reestablished an Orthodox hierarchy in Kiev.
    The ‘transfer’ of 1686 was desired (as a normal consequence of the Pereyaslav Treaty) by the Cossacks who saw themselves as ‘Malorussians’. The opposition to ‘Moscow’ came from those ‘Ukrainians’ (the motley crew of Cossacks) who wanted to have the cake and eat it. To remain “orthodox’ because their people remained orthodox, while acceding to the privileges, charters of nobility, of the Khazaro-‘Sarmatian’ Szlachta and sporting its coats of arms (European ‘values’ against the Moskaly ‘values’, in contemporary lingo).
    The Ecumenical Patriarchy did not issue the Tomos of 1686 under any ‘pressure’ from the Moskaly. It was a time when all Orthodox Churches were groping for alms from the Russians in whom they saw their protectors against the Turks, Catholics and Protestants, the only credible leaders of the Orthodox and the future liberators from the Ottoman yoke.
    I think that for any reconciliation to occur, one should leave Constantinople aside, which is too embarrassingly obvious that acts as a cover for God knows what agencies (besides the State Department) hellbent to bring trouble and confusion among the Orthodox (and kick the ass of ‘Piutin’).

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    , @AP
  334. Mr. Hack says:
    @Seraphim

    Boy, a whole lot to digest here, but I think that I’m beginning to ‘get it’. If instead of trying to ‘kick the ass of Piutin’, the ‘Malorussians’ along with the descendants of the ‘Khazaro-Sarmatian Szlachta (I think that you forgot to include the Ukro-Nazi junta and their Masonic-Jewish leaders too) learned to lick it like you seem to do, then the true-blue real Orthodox God would be happy again and all would be good in Eastern Europe? Did I miss something here, all knowing and erudite one? 🙂

    • Replies: @Seraphim
  335. AP says:
    @Seraphim

    Thank you for putting the effort into the response. I do, really, appreciate it.

    It is impossible to admit the rather childish claims that the ‘Church of Moscow’ (which was the legitimate ‘Kiev’ Church, always recognized by the ‘Mother Church’ since her physical departure from Kiev) was the one in schism in 1448.

    Constantinople returned to Orthodoxy within a decade or two. Moscow Church was out of Orthodoxy for 150 years. During those 150 years did other Orthodox Churches recognize the Moscow Church?

    Only then the Moscow Church renounced the title of ‘Kiev’ not to become associated with heresy.

    So, as you admit, the Church based in Moscow (for whatever reason) ceased being in charge of Kiev after it left Constantinople, while Kiev remained under Constantinople as always.

    The so-called ‘Metropolia of Kiev, Halych and All Rus’ was ‘established’ by the fugitive to Rome Uniate former Patriarch Gregory Mammas from Rome, within the Polish kingdom and the Grand Duchy of Lithuania, under the rule of metropolitan Gregory the Bulgarian (1458–1472) remained therefore in communion with the Holy See, as well as during the rule of the following metropolitan Міsail (1476–1480) and submitted to the Polish-Lithuanian rulers.

    Until the Counter-Reformation the Polish-Lithuanian rulers were neutral with respect to Orthodoxy. There were plenty of powerful Orthodox magnates such as prince Ostrogsky who was the supreme commander of Polish-Lithuanian armies in their war against Moscow (and generous patron of the Orthodox Church); the first Orthodox printed Bible was in Polish-Lithuanian territory; etc.

    The discrimination against the Orthodox in the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth continued unabated and that was the ultimate reason for Hmelnitski’s uprising and the Pereyaslav Treaty.

    1. Not so simple. It was largely a class war of peasants and middle nobles against magnates and their private armies. Rebels actually initially appealed to the Catholic Polish King against the recently-Catholic Rus magnates. Khmelytsky’s troops plundered Orthodox Church property while some of the magnates opposing him had defended it. Khmelnytsky’s Tatar allies kidnapped and sent to slave markets lots of Orthodox people.

    2. During this period the Kiev Mohyla Academy became the main intellectual center of Orthodoxy. So discrimination while existing was not unabated.

    3. 1686 occurred after Ukraine left Poland and was opposed by the local Orthodox Church.

    The ‘transfer’ of 1686 was desired (as a normal consequence of the Pereyaslav Treaty) by the Cossacks who saw themselves as ‘Malorussians’. The opposition to ‘Moscow’ came from those ‘Ukrainians’ (the motley crew of Cossacks) who wanted to have the cake and eat it.

    It was desired by some Cossacks and opposed by others. There were power struggles between various factions that Moscow took advantage of.

    There was continuous resistance in Ukraine by local Orthodox to this handover.

    Moreover, the fact that overnight the Ecumenical Patriarchate became dependent on an altogether non-Christian (and a overtly anti-Chriastian, at that) sovereign, practically annulled any ‘supremacy’ of the Patriarch over other Christian realms and churches.

    What does this say about the Russian Church for 70 years, during the period when after 1939 it grabbed Churches in Volhynia, Galicia, Bukovina, etc?

    The Ecumenical Patriarchy did not issue the Tomos of 1686 under any ‘pressure’ from the Moskaly.

    He was pressured by the Ottomans, who were paid off by Moscow to pressure him.

    It would seem that having one’s cake and eating it to would apply to complaining about a Church being under an infidel yet using the infidel to grab administrative control from that Church.

    • Replies: @Seraphim
  336. Seraphim says:
    @Mr. Hack

    You lost the plot altogether.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  337. Seraphim says:
    @AP

    You lost the plot too. If you can proffer an enormity like “Moscow was out of Orthodoxy for 150 years” but say that a Uniate ‘church’ was inside Orthodoxy, you can believe anything.

    • Replies: @AP
  338. AP says:
    @Seraphim

    “Moscow was out of Orthodoxy for 150 years”

    It wasn’t recognized by other Orthodox Churches for 150 years. Yes or no?

    say that a Uniate ‘church’ was inside Orthodoxy

    I never said that. Constantinople returned to Orthodoxy after a couple of decades. Yes or no?

    When it did so did the Moscow Church return to its mother Church? No. It remained on its own, and unrecognized. While the Church in Ukraine remained under Constantinople.

    • Replies: @Seraphim
  339. Mr. Hack says:
    @Seraphim

    I did, where? you brought up the ‘Khazaro Sarmatian Szlachta’and ‘Malorussians’ wanting to ‘kick Piutin’s ass’. I only embellished your fabulous tale with some up to date terminology, to help bring it more into the modern era. I don’t think that I missed anything, but if I did, please continue….

    • Replies: @Seraphim
  340. Seraphim says:
    @Mr. Hack

    Your ‘up-to date terminology’ is a direct vulgar insult to me (‘ lick it like you seem to do’) beyond the norms of a civilized exchange of opinions. It signals the interruption of any communication with you.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  341. Mr. Hack says:
    @Seraphim

    My choice of words didn’t stop you from any ‘interruption of communication’ in comment #348. Why start grasping for straws now? 🙂

    (IF YOU first bring up similarly phrased comments like ‘kick the ass of Piutin’ don’t go soft on me when I similarly comment back.)

  342. Seraphim says:
    @AP

    If you mean that Moscow was not recognized by the Uniate Metropolia of Halych, the answer is yes.
    If you mean that other Orthodox Churches did not recognize Moscow, the answer is no.
    When Constantinople returned to Orthodoxy, but continued to ‘recognize’ a Uniate Church, allowing it to usurp the title of primate of ‘All Rus’, its ‘Orthodoxy’ remained debatable. The Patriarch of Constantinople was not, and is not a ‘Pope’.
    In 1516 Patriarch Theolyptos I of Constantinople addressed a gramota the “all holy Metropolitan of Moscow and All the Russias” Varlaam; in this same gramota the same metropolitan is also called “the most holy Metropolitan of Kiev and All the Russias”. So, it was recognized.
    In 1561, Patriarch Joasaph II of Constantinople on behalf of the council of bishops, calls metropolitan Macarius (of Moscow), “Patriarchal Exarch”, and is granted the right to perform Ivan IV’s (the Terrible) coronation as Tsar on behalf of the Patriarch himself.
    The elevation of Moscow to the rank of Patriarchy was motivated by the fact that “the throne of the most pious and Orthodox city of Moscow shall be called patriarchal, for that country has been made worthy by God of royal [of the tsar] power, and all Rus’ and the Northern countries shall submit to the patriarchal throne of Moscow and all Rus’ and all Northern Countries…”.
    In 1654 Patriarch Paisios I of Constantinople approved of the title of Patriarch Nikon: “Holy Archbishop of Moscow, Patriarch of All Great and Little Russia”.

    You will notice that the consecration of Iov Boretsky and the re-establishment of an Orthodox hierarchy in 1620, was performed in secret by the Patriarch of Jerusalem, Theophanes, passing through Kiev returning from a visit to Moscow.
    At the representations of the government and of the Uniates whether the Patriarch of Jerusalem had the right to consecrate bishops outside the canonical territory of Jerusalem, Boretsky answered that “Theophanes, the Patriarch of Jerusalem, one of the ecumenical pastors and teachers of this Rus’, who with his colleagues, the three Patriarchs, has long had and continues to have dominance over this nation and his sheep”. His letters to the Patriarch of Moscow were addressed “to His All Holiness and Beatitude, Master and Father, Father of fathers, Master father lord Philaret Nikitich, by God’s mercy Patriarch of Moscow and All Rus’, my master and pastor”, “Master of All Russia”, and calling himself his “good and obedient servant and faithful intercessor in prayer”. In 1622, Bishop Isaiah (Kopinsky), the future metropolitan of Kiev and Galich (from 1631–1632), addressed his letter “to His All Holiness and All Beatitude lord Philaret, by God’s mercy His Eminence the Patriarch of Great and Little Russias and to the last great ocean”.
    The act of 1686 was a re-confirmation of the decisions of the “Council Act of the Great Constantinople Council of all the ancient Orthodox Churches of the East in 1593”, establishing the Patriarchate of Moscow.

    • Replies: @AP
  343. AP says:
    @Seraphim

    I see that you are quoting extensively from the work of Priest Mikhail Zheltov, a propagandist of the Russian Orthodox Church. While his position does not of course automatically mean that what he claims is falsehood, it nevertheless indicates a need for caution. One could be similarly careful with Job Getchas of Constantinople whom I have quoted, but Getcha’s claims are also supported by a hierarch of the UOC-MP, Hovorun.

    Now let’s look at some of these claims:

    First of all, he omits certain things. For example, in 1461 Metropolitan Iona of Moscow dropped Kiev from his official title, referring to himself as “Metropolitan of All Rus.” (the previous title had been Metropolitan of Kiev and All Rus.”) However the Metropolitan, under Constantinople, residing in Kiev did call himself “Metropolitan of Kiev and All Rus.”

    http://orthochristian.com/116338.html

    You also omit some things. Your source admits that in “the next patriarch, St. Dionysios I, in 1467 agreed to receive Gregory the Bulgarian into ecclesiastical communion, recognized his status as metropolitan of All Rus’, and on February 14 of the same year sent his gramota to Moscow.69 In this gramota the patriarch confirmed that the Constantinople Patriarchate supposedly did not recognized St. Jonah as the lawful primate of the Church of all Rus’ (without any explanation of the de facto recognition of St. Jonah by Patriarch Gennadius Scholarius) and he does not recognize his successors, and he demanded that they give over the rule of the Church of All Rus’ specifically to Gregory.”

    Thus the Kiev Church remained under Constantinople but the Moscow Church that refused to submit to Kiev/Constantinople left Orthodoxy, resulting in two Rus Churches, a recognized one in Kiev under Constantinople and an independent one in Moscow.

    The author argues that in supporting one but not the other Constantinople recognized there there ought to be one Church and that implicitly once Moscow was recognized Kiev should automatically go under Moscow. But this implied result was not expressed in the document granting recognition to Moscow – Constantinople continued to have Kiev as its territory.

    In 1516 Patriarch Theolyptos I of Constantinople addressed a gramota the “all holy Metropolitan of Moscow and All the Russias” Varlaam; in this same gramota the same metropolitan is also called “the most holy Metropolitan of Kiev and All the Russias”. So, it was recognized.

    Varlaam was not even mentioned by name, according to Zheltov. There is a contradiction in the document; it would be interesting to see a transcript of he original.

    In 1622, Bishop Isaiah (Kopinsky), the future metropolitan of Kiev and Galich (from 1631–1632), addressed his letter “to His All Holiness and All Beatitude lord Philaret, by God’s mercy His Eminence the Patriarch of Great and Little Russias and to the last great ocean”.

    This is cherry-picking at its finest. Kopinsky was a Russophile activist whose rule was a fluke; he was deposed in under a a year, forced to move to a monastery, and replaced as head of the Kiev Church by an anti-Moscow figure.

    Here is something Zheltov conveniently ignored: the Volhynian Chronicle. This document referred to “All Rus” as specifically applying to all the lands in Lithuanian and Poland. Moscow was excluded from “All Rus” and was described simply as Moscow. So in the description of the Battle of Orsha (1514) between Muscovite forces and those of Lithuanian(led by a Rus prince) the Volhynian Chronicle is that between “Lithuanian and Rus” against Moscow; Rus was never applied when discussing Muscovites and indeed the Lithuanian and Rus princes were praised for “defending the churches of God” against the Muscovites.

    So when considering titles such as “All Rus” when used in Kiev, it does not necessarily mean unity between Kiev and Moscow.

    :::::::::

    Now here is what another scholar says. Unlike the one whose work you posted, he is an internationally recognized academic, not a ROC polemicist:

    Moreover he indicates that the Russians had a pattern of forging documents. Such forged documents may be the basis of the conclusions from the works you posted.

    https://risu.org.ua/en/index/expert_thought/interview/65570/

    In your report presented in Belgrade, you have termed the transfer of the Kyiv Metropolis as granting to a concession. How multiple are the precedents of granting the metropolises and even certain canonical territories to concession? Can you clarify this term?

    – It had never been a case before Kyiv, at least I know any precedent. I tried to find itbut found none. There was another precedent – the transfer of Aleppo Metropolis, but it happened later (this Metropolis was returned to the jurisdiction of the Patriarchate of Antioch in 1792). A similar precedent was even later, when, after the liberation of a part of modern Greece, the orthodox Church of Greece was formed. As you know, this Church unilaterally announced itself autocephalous in 1833, and later, in 1850, its canonical autocephaly was proclaimed by the Ecumenical Throne. Further, the territory of Greece gradually increased, and every time the new territories were added, a separate act for their accession to the Church of Greece (in 1866 and 1882 respectively) was issued. This happened to a certain point and when it came to the modern Northern Greece, Macedonia, and Western Thrace, Constantinople said, “Stop. We will not fully give it to you. This will be the canonical territory of the Patriarchate of Constantinople, but under the control of the Church of Greece” (now called “Metropolis of the new territories” under the Patriarchal Act of 1928).

    In the report you indicate that the concession of the Kyiv Metropolis was carried out on three specific conditions – the first commemoration of the Patriarch of Constantinople, preserving the privileges of the Metropolitan of Kyiv and the right of assembly of the clergy and laity of the Kyiv Metropolis to elect the Metropolitan. What risks arise from the failure to abide by these conditions by the party to whom the Metropolis was transferred? By the way, can you tell about the benefits of the Metropolitan of Kyiv?

    – The benefits include, first of all, his title – Metropolitan of Kyiv and All Rus (now Metropolitan of Kyiv has the title only “of all Ukraine” – etc.). These rights were restored after the Ukrainian exarchate of the ROC emerged. But this law is incomplete because he has also other rights – to convene his own synod to elect bishops and ordain them without contacting the Patriarchate.

    – But it now exists on paper.

    – Formally it has been restored, but the Ukrainian exarchate was deprived of these rights, as well as after joining the MP. But it was the case in all metropolises of the Patriarchate of Constantinople as long as there were real metropolises.

    – Which conditions are not met?

    – The condition of retaining the right of the Metropolitan of Kyiv to the jurisdiction over the whole metropolis, because the bishops were very soon elected not in Kyiv at the Synod of Bishops of the Kyiv Metropolis, but at the Synod of the Russian Church. Although it was expected that the Metropolitan should be elected, as the Greeks called it, at the gatherings of clergy and laity. In the Slavic tradition, this is called a council. In addition, the Metropolitan lost his jurisdiction, he retained jurisdiction only over the Diocese of Kyiv. He was banned from bearing the title of the Exarch of the Ecumenical Patriarchate and All Rus. This title is his legal privilege.

    – Remembering the name of the Ecumenical Patriarch in the first place – what does it mean in the canonical aspect?

    – In the canonical tradition – the most canons do not reflect it well enough – every priest remembers his hierarchical superior. A deacon or a priest remembers a diocesan bishop, and only him because we have a bishop who is head of his Church, which is both local and catholic. The bishop remembers his Metropolitan (in the metropolis system, such as Kyiv Metropolis, which was part of the Ecumenical Patriarchate, a priest remembers the bishop, the bishop remembers the metropolitan, the metropolitan remembers the patriarch). And the patriarchs as a sign of unity of the Church remember primates of the churches and all the Orthodox episcopate.

    – That is, as long as this condition was observed, the Ecumenical Patriarch was deemed to be the head of the Kyiv Metropolis?

    – Right.

  344. Seraphim says:

    “There is no worse blind man than the one who doesn’t want to see. There is no worse deaf man than the one who doesn’t want to hear. And there is no worse madman than the one who doesn’t want to understand.” -Ancient Proverb
    Suit yourself.

    • Replies: @AP
  345. AP says:
    @Seraphim

    A nice quote, that can be applied to either of us if one or the other is wrong. Given that the point you present is supported almost exclusively by Russian polemicists and mine by people with more neutral and academic backgrounds, it is likely that you are the one who is mistaken here.

    It looks likely that the Georgian Church will join Constantinople, Jerusalem and Romania in supporting Ukraine’s new status after all, once the Tomos is issued:

    https://www.romfea.gr/epikairotita-xronika/26053-to-patriarxeio-georgias-upostirizei-tin-autokefalia-stin-oukrania

    • Agree: Mr. Hack
    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  346. Seraphim says:

    More people in the wrong doesn’t make the wrong true and good.
    No need to say that your point is supported exclusively by Ukrainian polemicists, neither ‘neutral’, nor with brilliant ‘academic backgrounds’.

    • Replies: @AP
  347. Mr. Hack says:
    @AP

    It looks to me that Saraphim’s morbid Ukrainaphobic views cloud his ability to see things in a neutral fashion. Great job in defending your views!

    • Replies: @AP
  348. AP says:
    @Seraphim

    No need to say that your point is supported exclusively by Ukrainian polemicists, neither ‘neutral’, nor with brilliant ‘academic backgrounds’.

    One of them is a hierarch from the UOC-MP. This would qualify as neutral. Actually he is arguing the political interests of his own Church. He values truth over convenience or politics. The other has this background:

    He is Doctor of Theology of Aristotle University of Thessaloniki (Greece), Doctor of History (Practical School of Higher Studies, Sorbonne, Paris), Fellow of the Byzantine library (Collège de France, Paris). In August 2016, Constantin Vetochnikov participated in Byzantinist Congress in Belgrade, where he made a report themed “Transfer of the Kyiv Metropolis to the Moscow Patriarchate in 1686: a canonical analysis.”

    In contrast, your source is a Russian polemicist from Moscow.

    More people in the wrong doesn’t make the wrong true and good.

    Correct. OTOH, although God works in mysterious ways, it seems odd that He would limit the true Church to one led by KGB snitches, whose believers (a huge number of whom are”atheists, but Orthodox atheists”) are the world’s abortion capital and Europe’s HIV capital. I would question my judgement if it rests upon the idea that this is the material that has a monopoly on the true religion.

    Patriarchs of Constantinople and Jerusalem, Churches of Romania, Georgia, etc. are out but the cigarette and alcohol smuggler who had been a KGB man is in. People living devout, moral lives in Ukraine or Georgia are out, divorcing, non-churchgoing, “atheist but Orthodox atheists” of Russia are in. Do you think it is realistic?

    • Replies: @Seraphim
  349. AP says:
    @Mr. Hack

    He is intelligent, well-informed and sincere so his posts are worth reading. I speculate that bitterness at the loss of Bukovina upsets him and skews his reasoning, but who knows.

    Thank you for the praise though 🙂

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  350. Mr. Hack says:
    @AP

    Well, It just so happens that the southern part of Bukovina, where a majority of the population is Romanian, is within Romania, whereas the northern part, that is predominantly populated by Ukrainians is within Ukraine – seems like an equitable distribution to me. I’ve brought up two Romanian figures that I think most Ukrainians ought to respect, that being Hospodar Stephen the Great and of course, the great Orthodox Churchman Petro Mogyla. But I do sense a hardcore Russophile bent in his character, that seems somewhat incongruous for a Romanian national? He is intelligent, and has provided me some information about the Danubian estuary area for which I am grateful. I do apologize for my less than gentile remarks towards him, I guess I got a little bit riled and should have shown him more restraint.

    • Replies: @AP
  351. AP says:
    @Mr. Hack

    Northern Bukovina was flooded by Ruthenian/Ukrainian settlers in the 18th-19th centuries, turning it majority-Ukrainian; prior to that most of its inhabitants had been Romanians. I think he is bitter about that.

    IIRC he has said some contemptuous things about Russians too but he primarily seems to dislike Ukrainians.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  352. Seraphim says:
    @AP

    The hierarch of UOC-MP supporting autocephaly is hardly ‘neutral’. He is a turncoat.
    Fr. Mikhail Zheltov is no lesser ‘academic’ than Vetochnikov (whose ramblings don’t bring any clarity). He is Professor of Liturgical Studies at the Moscow Spiritual Academy, formerly at Saint Tikhon Orthodox University.
    I am the one neutral in the whole discussion, because I have no dog in this fight. Being neither ‘Ukrainian’ nor Russian their reciprocal spurts of bile is rather indifferent (however amusing) to me and I am neither emotionally involved, nor morally outraged by the ‘tobacco smuggling KGB snitches’ infantile BS either.
    Actually, I have a little dog: ‘Ukraine’ detains illegally Rumanian territories which never belonged to it (not even in Igor’s time), which is not of a nature to endear it to me, and as long as this abnormal situation endures, any sympathy for Ukraine’s ‘independence’ is out of the question.

    • Replies: @AP
  353. AP says:
    @Seraphim

    The hierarch of UOC-MP supporting autocephaly is hardly ‘neutral’. He is a turncoat

    He has not left the UOC-MP.

    His academic credentials are far more impressive than those of your obscure source:

    Cyril Hovorun is a research fellow at Yale University. He served as chairman of the department for external relations of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church and first deputy chairman of the educational committee of the Moscow Patriarchate. He is a scholar in patristics and ecclesiology.

    Fr. Mikhail Zheltov is no lesser ‘academic’ than Vetochnikov (whose ramblings don’t bring any clarity). He is Professor of Liturgical Studies at the Moscow Spiritual Academy, formerly at Saint Tikhon Orthodox University.

    So, a priest who teaches at a seminary. These institutions are not nearly on the same level as those Vetochnikov attended:

    The Aristotle University of Thessaloniki (A.U.Th.; often called the Aristotelian University or University of Thessaloniki; Greek: Αριστοτέλειο Πανεπιστήμιο Θεσσαλονίκης) is the sixth oldest and among the most highly ranked tertiary education institutions in Greece. It is named after the philosopher Aristotle, who was born in Stageira, about 55 km east of Thessaloniki.

    Sorbonne University is consistently ranked in the top universities in Europe. The first recognition of its existence as an integrated university came in 2018, when it appeared on the CWUR World University Rankings 2018-2019 in 29th place globally and 1st place in France[19].

    :::::::::::

    It is very silly to compare Fr. Mikhail Zheltov’s academic background to that of Vetochnikov.

    I am neither emotionally involved, nor morally outraged by the ‘tobacco smuggling KGB snitches

    I suppose that Judas also does not morally outrage you, either? Nor the moneylenders in the temple whom Christ condemned?

    But those did not oppose Ukraine who took Romanian lands, so they don’t get a pass 🙂

    If Zheltov is correct and Vetochnikov and others are wrong, the the body of Christ is limited to former KGB operatives and loyal servants of the anti-Christian Soviet state and is built upon a rather un-Christian nation. It excludes actually virtuous people who live actually Christian lives.

    Does this makes sense to you?

    Actually, I have a little dog: ‘Ukraine’ detains illegally Rumanian territories which never belonged to it (not even in Igor’s time), which is not of a nature to endear it to me, and as long as this abnormal situation endures, any sympathy for Ukraine’s ‘independence’ is out of the question

    So my speculation was accurate after all. Thank you for the confirmation.

    Re: northern Bukovyna, I am inclined to be sympathetic to the Romanians given that it was Romanian-populated for several centuries even though the original ownership is rather murky (Chern- is clearly Slavic, after all, so what little evidence we have suggests an ancient Slavic presence there. Buk- is also Slavic, it means beech tree).

    Current situation may not be just, but it is certainly normal. Crimea, Kosovo, southern Ossetia, etc. etc. (Ukrainians have been a majority in northern Bukovyna for about a century longer than Russians have been in Crimea). It’s rather rare nowadays for such territories to be in the country separate from their own people. Transylvania’s situation has been rather abnormal. Northern Bukovyna’s has been normal and typical.

    • Replies: @Seraphim
  354. Seraphim says:
    @AP

    I can’t but leave you drown further in BS. I can see no point in continuing this conversation. My responses were not addressed so much to you (or other diehard ‘Ukies’) but rather to people who might be interested in truth. But as you can see, nobody seems any longer interested in this thread, and I don’t intend to waste my time in futile disputes, where you have nothing to contribute again and again other than your own pet theories.

    • Replies: @AP
  355. AP says:
    @Seraphim

    My responses were not addressed so much to you (or other diehard ‘Ukies’)

    I am hardly a “diehard Ukie.” I would not. for example, belong to the UOC-KP.

    where you have nothing to contribute again and again other than your own pet theories.

    Theories were not mine, but those of academic specialists in these areas.

    I agree that you are not here to learn but to convince others and that it makes sense for you to leave, given that your ideas are being challenged and you are unable to respond to the challenges effectively. I suppose we will revisit this topic if it presents itself in the future.

    • Agree: Mr. Hack
    • Replies: @Seraphim
  356. Mr. Hack says:
    @AP

    There is no reason not to accept that Northern Bukovina was a part of the Galician principality and that ‘Cern’ was a southernmost military outpost of this principality. After the breakup of Rus in the 13th century, a small Ruthenian (Ukrainian) state emerged in these northern Bukovinian lands that was called the ‘Shypinskij Kraj’ that was totally autonomous from 1340-1349. It later changed hands between Poland, Hungary and lastly Moldavia, but its internal Ruthenian character is not in any dispute. I think that a large portion of Stephen the Great’s loyal Rusyns were assembled from this land.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  357. Mr. Hack says:
    @Mr. Hack

    As far as the autochtonous Ruthenian character of the Cecyn lands in Northern Bukovina, even the great Romanian historian Nicholas Iorga was in agreement:

    Існують також інші (небезпідставні) версії походження Цецинської фортеці. Приміром, історик Аркадій Жуковський стверджує, що в 1158 році галицький князь Ярослав Осмомисл закріпив свою владу над Дунайським Пониззям, і в зв’язку з цим перераховує міста південного кордону Галицького князівства, серед яких називає Чечун. Давньоруське походження фортеці підтверджує і найбільш відомий румунський історик Миколу Йорга. Розповідаючи про стару твердиню, він пише, що молдавани й поляки не будували її, «а отримали від російських господарів цих околиць з Галича».

    http://bukpravda.cv.ua/statti/rehiony/item/7056-%D0%BF%D1%96%D1%81%D0%BB%D1%8F%D0%BC%D1%96%D1%81%D1%82%D1%8F.html#.XCcTcFxKjIU

    • Replies: @AP
  358. Seraphim says:
    @AP

    Just before closing this ‘thread’ I confess that I did not realize that the ‘hierarch’ you were talking about was Cyril Hovorun. FYI, hierarch means a bishop. Fr. Cyril is a mere Archimandrite. And the fact that he is professor at Jesuit and Protestant Universities and Acting Director of the Huffington Ecumenical Institute, does not enhance his ‘Orthodox’ credentials. On the contrary.
    I will revisit this topic if in the future it presents itself, but not in direct discussion with you.

  359. AP says:
    @Mr. Hack

    Even Romanian wiki admits that Slavic tribes lived in what is now northern Bukovyna:

    https://ro.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiverți

    So it is likely eastern Slavs were there first, but given that those times were prehistoric we cannot be absoutely certain.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  360. Mr. Hack says:
    @AP

    If you and I are discussing these events today, based on internet resources that are based on old documentation they aren’t ‘pre-historic’. The first Slavic imprint that appeared in the Bukovinian lands was from the 6th century AD and included the Antes, whose wars with the Goths, Huns and Byzantines were well documented within Gothic, Arabic and Byzantine written sources. Later East Slavic tribes like the Tivertsi that you mention also directly settled in Bukovinian lands, pointing to the autochtonous nature of the Slavic settlement there.

    Ukrainians and Romanians are both the direct heirs of an even more ancient civilization that was active in lands that are both Ukrainian and Romanian: The Tripillian or Cuceteni culture. So we have a lot more in common than what should differentiate us?…

    • Agree: AP

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