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To IQ research (h/t whyvert):

sweden-no-to-iq

Strictly speaking, this isn’t exactly accurate – Lynn and Vanhanen peg Somali IQ at around 72 – but it’s certainly closer to the mark than the politically correct European 100.

Anyhow, while I realize that Sweden is basically a meme country at this point, this is still an incredible development.

In previous years, the Swedish media had merely hounded doctors who made factually correct statements about IQ.

mensa-sweden-cucks

Now we are at the stage where the criminal justice system of a country that scores 100/100 on Freedom House’s freedom rating is being used to effectively ban IQ research, following in the footsteps of noted SJW Stalin in the 1930s.

I think we all suspected this would happen eventually. Sweden is the canary in the coalmine so far as general trends in the West are concerned. If this case sets a precedent, we could see a gradual stifling of this research in Europe, Britain, and eventually the US (ironically, at about the same time as race differences in IQ are definitively confirmed by advances in genomics).

Anyhow, hopefully someone will keep an eye on this case. Perhaps IQ researchers in the area could volunteer their services to try to make this into a Scopes Monkey Trial.

If not, well, too bad for Western civilization. But China has no time for baizuo idiocy and will continue to plow ahead.

 
• Category: Race/Ethnicity • Tags: Censorship, Hate Speech, SJWs, Sweden 
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  1. songbird says:

    If Heidi Stensmyren ever needs an operation, I think it would be best for Sweden if she showed that she was not racist by being operated on by a Somali doctor.

    • Replies: @utu
    , @El Dato
    , @Okechukwu
  2. Dmitry says:

    Village witch hunt.

    His comment must seem somehow threatening to a self image of an enlightened, tolerant, egalitarian, non-judgemental Swedish.

    But of course, the fact of the witch hunt itself is what reverses the impression. What can you see in this kind of trial and prosecution of a man for a simple opinion, except narrow-mindedness, parochialism, lack of free-thinking and lack of tolerance for different ideas.

  3. Mr. XYZ says:

    Banning this research after science will demonstrate that racial and ethnic gaps in average IQ are (mostly?) genetic (something which will be proved in any case, since the Chinese will do it if the West won’t) would be extremely counterproductive. In such a scenario, this issue will need to be honestly discussed so that racists can avoid monopolizing the conversation in regards to this. Indeed, it is quite reasonable to say that individuals shouldn’t be judged based on the average of their ethnic group and that, in any case, mistreating low IQ individuals is wrong.

    Also, as a side note, could some Eastern European countries–such as Poland and Hungary–become centers of IQ research if things in the West will become too crazy due to SJWs? I mean, Poland and Hungary are certainly no China, but they are more closely located to Western Europe and thus Western European IQ researchers who will dislike the Lysenkoism in their home countries won’t have to move very far.

    In addition to this, Yes, people who support, say, allowing unqualified doctors to practice medicine with the help of affirmative action should be willing to have these doctors perform surgeries on them. After all, this would allow these people to show that they are actually willing to put their own lives on the line (as opposed to putting other people’s lives on the line).

    • Replies: @anonymous coward
  4. Mr. XYZ says:

    @songbird: Yep. Specifically, let it be a Somali doctor whose IQ is a standard deviation less than that of the average Swedish doctor.

    @Dmitry: Completely agreed.

    Also, people fail to grasp that refusing to talk about the possibility of a genetic cause to racial and ethnic gaps in average IQs does a disservice to lower-performing racial and ethnic groups. After all, as Linda Gottfredson wrote, having a low IQ makes life more difficult for people since they are less capable of dealing with the complexity in life. Thus, if you are going to teach underperformers–a disproportionate percentage of whom belong to certain racial and ethnic groups–that interventions or whatever is going to make them perform as well as the better-performing racial and ethnic groups, then you are only setting themselves up for anger and disappointment once they will see that reality won’t conform to their expectations.

  5. Mr. XYZ says:

    @Anatoly Karlin: Frankly, after racial and ethnic gaps in average IQ are proven to be genetic, I’d like to see how exactly left-wingers are going to rationalize their attempts to silence and shame hereditarians over the previous several decades (for instance, this includes the SPLC labeling hereditarians such as Arthur Jensen, Charles Murray, and Linda Gottfredson as extremists).

    Are they going to say that they didn’t want minorities’ feelings to get hurt? If so, I’d like to see how exactly blaming White people for continued minority underperformance is beneficial for non-Asian minorities. After all, blaming White people for this could only make non-Asian minorities paranoid and make them believe that malicious White people are purposely reducing their average IQs and their quality of life. How exactly are White-minority relations supposed to be good and productive when White people are consistently blamed for non-Asian minorities’ underperformance?

  6. In the 70′s? Not bad: http://dailycaller.com/2018/05/17/somali-immigrants-day-care-fraud/

    In the land of the blind the one-eyed man is king.

  7. utu says:
    @songbird

    Plastic surgeon who gave bride-to-be ‘permanent brain damage’ during a tummy tuck filmed videos of herself dancing and singing during surgeries

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5754797/Plastic-surgeon-filmed-videos-dancing-singing-surgeries.html#ixzz5GHsEePxP

    • Replies: @songbird
  8. Sweden never disappoints.

    • Replies: @Okechukwu
  9. It’s ironic, because Sweden was one of the pioneers of eugenics in the 1920s. Uppsala University had one of the leading centers. On top of that, Sweden forcibly sterilised close to 70 000 gypsies if I am not mistaken, as well as many native Swedish women who were considered “dullards”.

    That was among the highest in per capita sterilisations of any Western country. I believe only Canada was close. It is therefore very curious that the pendulum has shifted so dramatically in Sweden (and Canada). Maybe they are simply very sensitive to new trends and go further with them once/when the wind shifts. I note that Sweden has arguably the strongest far-right movement of any European country except perhaps Greece and certainly outside of Europe in any Western country.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  10. Sweden YES!

    Swedish comic shows Superhero attacking Polish Nationalist with pride flag

    Via Google Translate:

    “In the story are Polish nationalists trying to stop a pride train in Warsaw. The Phantom can not agree and intervenes,” writes Fantasy editor Mikael Sol in an email to Aftonbladet.

    I first doubted the veracity of the story when I heard about it a few days ago, it just seemed too perfect to be true. But once again, stereotyping is redeemed.

  11. @Polish Perspective

    4chan must now illustrate the Rise of Mecha-Kaczynski. Doctor Doom parallels abound.

  12. Stalinism in Russia was NOT true Marxism, but Sweden might get there over time.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
  13. El Dato says:
    @songbird

    Then she wakes up trans!

    “It’s a Miracle!” to quote Roger Waters.

  14. @Felix Keverich

    There’s no such thing as “true Marxism.”

  15. @Polish Perspective

    OT

    You cited data in the other thread showing that Hungarian youth didn’t improve over the older generation.

    Some probable reasons for this:

    - Orbán didn’t spend much on education. (Instead he built stadiums for our shitty football teams.) This makes teachers (already left leaning) super motivated in their leftist activism.

    - It also makes students feel neglected and so opposed to Orbán. The psychological impact is huge – shitty football teams get enormous amounts from the public but schools get very little. The message to the students is that Orbán doesn’t care for their future.

    - Orbán made free university education contingent on signing a paper promising to work (and pay taxes) in Hungary for a number of years. Not very popular with people intent on leaving the country.

    - The extremely lowbrow anti-immigrant campaign.

    Europe now stands for the opposite of Orbán – high quality education, higher salaries, freedom of movement (to Western Europe for higher salaries), etc.

    • Replies: @iffen
    , @reiner Tor
  16. @reiner Tor

    Well, the teachings of Marx would be it (except, I suppose, for the bit where Marx himself said he wasn’t a Marxist). But this has nothing to do with it.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
  17. @Felix Keverich

    Ah, okay, then. I’m sleepy, no coffee yet.

  18. @Daniil Adamov

    It’s impossible to implement them, so no political system ever will conform with “true Marxism.”

    But I shouldn’t have made the remark.

  19. Pericles says:

    Following up on some of the links shows that this is just one of several convictions for badspeak (“hets mot folkgrupp” or basically hatespeech).

    There is of course also a hardcore leftist social media snitching organization in place, Näthatsgranskaren, which basically means ‘internet hatred monitor’. (Shall we take a wild guess and assume it’s tax funded? Usually the case with these things.) Here are the very strict but proud hall monitors in their own words.

    More than 40 prosecutions have been brought after our 700 citizen crime reports of mainly hatespeech, below is one of them. Investigations are ongoing for many hundreds so more prosecutions to come. We are now making new searches and writing a few comments before we take some Christmas holidays

    About the association
    The Association Näthatsgranskaren is a non-profit organization registered with the Tax Agency. The association’s organization number is: 802511-3310. The association is registered for VAT and is registered as an employer.

    The vast majority of the association’s work is done on a volunteer basis by about 20 active members. Some persons receive a salary for their work. The association’s funding comes from membership fees, donations and gifts, as well as the project funds received by the association, including the project Valfrid, financed by the Ministry of Youth and Civil Affairs, MUCF.

    Tomas Åberg works as investigator and project manager. The association’s chairman and responsible publisher is Kenneth Bodin.

    Yep, tax funded.

    They make a big deal about just following existing laws. Fair enough, perhaps the real problem is the insane laws.

    https://twitter.com/nathatgranskare

    http://xn--nthatsgranskaren-vnb.se/

  20. Beckow says:

    Can we still call Pauline stupid?

    Swedish government is also sending a booklet ‘Prepare for war’ to all citizens. I think they expect Lukashenko’s presidential guard to swim across the Baltic, or maybe they spotted the usual ‘Russian’ submarines. A country going to pits internally, with more than a million new migrants, is worried about being invaded by – who else – The Russians. I am not so sure about the generic Swedish IQ, never mind the Somalis.

    Last year I was in Stockholm, the Arlandia Express broke down as soon as we left the airport for the city. Locals said that it happens a lot. After about 45 minutes we all piled into a few oversized, old buses with Third World smell and people from every sub-Saharan country, so crowded that they could use the Tokyo subway ‘pushers’. It barely moved, there were no announcements, no help. I looked for Uber or a taxi, there were none. Stockholm subway was dirty, menacing and noisy, the city center over-run with migrants, streets dirty. Quite a country, but I heard there are some nice areas further out. I am sure Pauline and her friends will eventually get to them too. Good luck, Sweden.

  21. @Mr. XYZ

    Also, as a side note, could some Eastern European countries–such as Poland and Hungary–become centers of IQ research if things in the West will become too crazy due to SJWs?

    There’s nothing there to research. For millennia everyone already knew that stupid people sire stupid kids; that is, knew until the post-Christian West lots its collective marbles.

    You don’t need a scientific institute to regain common sense, you just need to eject post-Christian cultists from the media and from places of power.

  22. @Polish Perspective

    Fantomen – The Phantom – is very popular in Sweden. In the comic he lives as a benevolent leader amongst Africans, like a UN Mission in spandex. The kind of moral superhero loved by a moral superpower.

  23. Completely off-topic, but check out this chart:

    The Ukraine is dying out! First 3 months of 2018 – only 85.000 babies; 21,6% of Russia’s level. And fertility rate at 1,31 is probably the lowest in Europe at this point.

    That is assuming Ukrainian statistics is telling us truth, and there is still 42 million people in the Ukraine. I suspect the actual number is closer to 32 million. For example, if we apply Russian fertility patterns to the Ukraine, it would produce an estimate of:

    147*0,216=31,75 million.

    Another interesting data point is South Korea. The first major nation to drop under 1.o TFR – something is deeply wrong in the SK society.

  24. neutral says:

    I also come across this story on the same day as reading this one:

    https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-05-22/sweden-warns-every-single-household-prep-war

    It looks like they are attempting to instil patriotardism into their population, why worry about third world population replacement when Putin is about to invade Sweden.

    • Replies: @Pericles
  25. @Beckow

    Ever since Crimea there has been an absolutely massive fear mongering propaganda push over Russia. They have a certain set of recurring narratives with no historical precedent like “Russia wants Gotland to control the Baltic Sea” that are nevertheless presented by pro-NATO “experts” as factual expositions of Russian strategic planning. There is next to no criticism of this ridiculous fear mongering in the Swedish media.

    The fear propaganda is working in Sweden but curiously not in Finland – support for NATO has increased in Sweden but dropped in Finland. (I used to be pro-NATO but I can clearly see that we are being manipulated into something and that can’t be good.)

    Way before the term SJW, Finnish internet used the meme “former Stalinist”. A journalist who was previously known for his pro-Soviet opinions kept presenting the United States as an example of successful multiculturalism in a TV debate and a confused nationalist asked “wait a minute, why are you praising America, aren’t you a Stalinist?”. He was slightly taken aback but then declared himself a “former Stalinist” on the spot, sparking years of memes about “former Stalinists” who all now push for NATO membership, russophobia, immigration and worship of magic communist negroes as our new moral leaders.

    What has been happening to the West since the 1960s is really a slow motion Bolshevik revolution. It’s not “cultural Marxism”, it’s just Marxism. They are the same people who took over Russia in 1917 who haven’t even changed their beliefs, only their tactics. Russia may have lost the Cold War but the Reds won.

    • Replies: @Felix Keverich
    , @inertial
  26. iffen says:
    @reiner Tor

    - Orbán didn’t spend much on education

    And it looks like you are going to lose your last best chance with the possible closing of the Central European University. :)

    • LOL: reiner Tor
  27. @reiner Tor

    An example of the lowbrow anti-immigrant campaign in Hungary:

    There was some German joke on an Onion-like website that in honor of Ramadan they changed the name of the German city Essen (“Eating”) to Fasten (“Fasting”). The “news” story was then announced by the public TV channel as such (as part of a report on some other immigrant-related story from Germany), but was spotted by Hungarian viewers who can speak German and is now spreading around Facebook. Since very few people watch the public channel anyway, I wonder if it’s a net positive at all from an alt-right viewpoint. It probably produces at least as many pro-immigration fanatics (who will be inoculated against anti-immigration news stories) as anti-immigration people. Especially among the educated classes.

  28. @Jaakko Raipala

    Russia may have lost the Cold War but the Reds won.

    As a Russian I disagree. Russia actually won since the country isn’t communist anymore. Of course 7 decades of communism have taken a heavy toll, but unlike US and Western Europe, there is still hope. That and the simple fact that Russian people have never lived better.

  29. Pericles says:
    @Beckow

    Last year I was in Stockholm, the Arlandia Express broke down as soon as we left the airport for the city. Locals said that it happens a lot. After about 45 minutes we all piled into a few oversized, old buses with Third World smell and people from every sub-Saharan country, so crowded that they could use the Tokyo subway ‘pushers’. It barely moved, there were no announcements, no help. I looked for Uber or a taxi, there were none. Stockholm subway was dirty, menacing and noisy, the city center over-run with migrants, streets dirty. Quite a country, but I heard there are some nice areas further out. I am sure Pauline and her friends will eventually get to them too. Good luck, Sweden.

    Harsh but, alas, not false. I remember returning to Stockholm by this route after a longish trip abroad and, on seeing the streams of mud people rushing past, thinking ‘Welcome to the Third World, Pericles’. Last time I used Arlanda Express, the nominally high speed airport train, it had some sort of issue and limped back to Stockholm an hour or so late. Sigh.

    You must have had some bad luck with the taxis though, because they normally swarm the train central. Usually quite nice too, but expensive as hell. (It’s a cozy oligopoly.)

  30. Pericles says:
    @Beckow

    A country going to pits internally, with more than a million new migrants, is worried about being invaded by – who else – The Russians. I am not so sure about the generic Swedish IQ, never mind the Somalis.

    Well, Russia is one of our historic enemies after all, and though we were last invaded by Russians 200+ years ago, the hysterical (((media))) do their best to liven things up. In the same vein, did you know that Russian trolls have afflicted the Swedish online debate severely and may have distorted the (((truth))) and driven certain (((debaters))) away? Fie, I say.

    The booklet is basically reheated Cold War instructions.

    • Replies: @Beckow
  31. Pericles says:
    @neutral

    It looks like they are attempting to instil patriotardism into their population, why worry about third world population replacement when Putin is about to invade Sweden.

    I only regret they didn’t publish a version in Arabic. The sound you would hear is that of bags packing, lol.

  32. Anonymous[405] • Disclaimer says:
    @Polish Perspective

    I note that Sweden has arguably the strongest far-right movement of any European country except perhaps Greece and certainly outside of Europe in any Western country.

    Doesn’t seem to be true. Surely Austria has the largest movement in Western Europe? And if including all of the EU, surely Poland?

    • Replies: @Dieter Kief
  33. Anonymous[405] • Disclaimer says:
    @Beckow

    A country going to pits internally, with more than a million new migrants

    In the last 20 years in Sweden I don’t think there have been anywhere near one million non-European and Muslim European migrants.

    • Replies: @Beckow
  34. AP says:
    @Felix Keverich

    The Ukraine is dying out! First 3 months of 2018 – only 85.000 babies; 21,6% of Russia’s level.

    To be precise: the pro-Russian parts of Ukraine are dying out. You are gloating at the extinction of your own people (or at least, allies):

    http://datatowel.in.ua/natural/birth-death-regions-historical

    This only goes to the end of 2016 but the pattern hasn’t changed.

    The rest of Ukraine is not much different from Russia itself. The western parts may be a little better.

    That is assuming Ukrainian statistics is telling us truth, and there is still 42 million people in the Ukraine

    42 million excludes Crimea but includes DNR/LNR. So the Ukrainian state has around 38 million plus however many Donbas refugees have moved to Kiev-controlled territory. If the low birth rate in Ukraine includes DNR/LNR than that accounts for huge amount of the loss.

    38 million is 26.4% of Russia’s population. If births are 21.6% of Russia’s, the relative drop is not so dramatic, and not so bad from the perspective of the Ukrainian state given that it represents a decline in the more pro-Russian population within the state.

    • Replies: @Felix Keverich
  35. songbird says:
    @utu

    I am going to assume the video is of a surgery that did not go badly, so I will admit to laughing.

  36. jtgw says:

    LOL @ “chews cat”. Took me a while to figure out Google Translate meant the mildly narcotic qat rather than the domestic animal species.

  37. @AP

    To be precise: the pro-Russian parts of Ukraine are dying out. You are gloating at the extinction of your own people (or at least, allies):

    http://datatowel.in.ua/natural/birth-death-regions-historical

    This only goes to the end of 2016 but the pattern hasn’t changed.

    I’m not seeing it. This website shows that regions with the lowest birthrates are Sumy and Chernigov – hardly pro-Russian. Western Ukraine always had relatively higher birthrates, due to greater percentage of the rural population, but the difference is not dramatic, and make no mistake about it, every part of the country was affected by the recent downturn.

    • Agree: RadicalCenter
  38. @Felix Keverich

    Another interesting data point is South Korea. The first major nation to drop under 1.o TFR – something is deeply wrong in the SK society.

    https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-average-day-like-for-a-Japanese-or-Korean-high-school-student

    https://www.quora.com/How-is-the-working-culture-like-in-Korea

    Would you bring a living being into the world for such hellish existence?

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  39. AP says:

    This website shows that regions with the lowest birthrates are Sumy and Chernigov – hardly pro-Russian.

    Donetsk was even worse.

    Western Ukraine always had relatively higher birthrates, due to greater percentage of the rural population

    Sumy is as rural as western Ukraine. Lviv oblast is not rural; Lviv is a larger city than Luhansk. Lviv had 27,000 births, 32,000 deaths in 2016.

    You are correct in that the pro-Ukrainian northeast is no better than the pro-Russian east.

    However Sumy and Chernihiv are a small portion of the pro-Ukrainian areas, whereas Donbas and Kharkiv are a large portion of the relatively pro-Russian areas. So overall the low birth rates are hitting the pro-Russian parts of Ukraine much harder.

    2015 birth rates by oblast:

    2015 birth rate by raion:

    Interactive map for the latter is here:

    http://datatowel.in.ua/natural/raion-birth-rate

    ::::::::::::::::::

    Here are birth statistics by oblast. They are not good:

    http://www.ukrstat.gov.ua/

    You will have to click on “Природний рух населення у січні-березні 2018 року”

    In the first 3 months of 2018, there were the following number of births in these oblasts:

    Kiev City: 8,615
    Dnipropetrovsk: 6,458
    Odessa: 5,811
    Lviv: 5,732
    Kharkiv: 5,113
    Kiev oblast: 3,878
    Transcarpathia – 3,459
    Zaporizhia – 3,298

    Currently there are 2.7 million people in Kharkiv oblast (5113 births) and 2.5 million in Lviv oblast (5732 births).

    Over time Lviv will overtake Kharkiv in size.

    Among relatively pro-Russian areas in Ukraine, only Odessa is keeping up demographically. The others are fading away.

    Extrapolating to the year*, it would be about 23,000 births in Lviv oblast (population 2.5 million) or a birth rate of 9.2. But Transcarpathia in western Ukraine – 11, Volyn 10.8.

    Now look at the south/east – In Kharkiv – 7.4. In Zaporizhia – 7.6. In Dnipropetrovsk (which has basically flipped to pro-Ukrainian) – 8.0. Odesa is the bright spot – 9.7.

    In comparison to different countries – Russia 13.3; Poland 9.7; Hungary 9.4; Romania and Serbia – 9.3; Bulgaria 9.2; Germany 9.0, Croatia 8.9; Greece 8.5; Portugal 8.3; Italy 8.0

    Other than Poland and Russia, the other countries have “inflated” birth rates due to migrants in the West and gypsies in the Balkans (plus Hungary).

    ::::::::::::

    So overall picture is negative for Ukraine, but the West is not much different from central/eastern Europe (and unlike them, doesn’t have migrants or gypsies to deal with), better than southern Europe, and its position within Ukraine improves relative to the East.

    *This may result in an underestimate. What time of year are most kids born? It may be in spring or summer.

  40. songbird says:

    I think this underscores the importance of trying to put HBD into pop culture. The novelty of it would be part of the attraction. Distribution might be a bit difficult, but even if it were banned in some countries, file sharing could be a way around that. It’d probably have to be made at cost, or the expectation of a loss.

    If it were a compelling drama, many people would watch it, even if it did not have a regular platform.

    • Replies: @Okechukwu
    , @Daniel Chieh
  41. Dmitry says:
    @Toronto Russian

    At least in the first link (which is also about Japan) – are you sure ? At least from watching videos, school looks pretty nice in Japan, and some of their schools they grow the food for lunch.

    • Replies: @Toronto Russian
  42. Okechukwu says:
    @songbird

    If Heidi Stensmyren ever needs an operation, I think it would be best for Sweden if she showed that she was not racist by being operated on by a Somali doctor.

    Sure. Most people with a brain will take a competent Somali doctor over a stupid and incompetent white doctor.

  43. @Felix Keverich

    Korea somehow managed to acquire all of the negative aspects of Japanese work culture, without any of the positives while being simultaneously pummeled with liberal values thanks to their American masters.

    Its fun.

  44. Okechukwu says:

    So Sweden doesn’t want Somalis unfairly maligned based on the fraudulent “research” of Richard Lynn and the handful of other racist quacks. Well done, Sweden.

    People with the IQ’s attributed to Africans by these pseudoscientic charlatans wouldn’t even be able to operate an automobile or brush their own teeth. But Africans function normally, command multiple languages fluently and excel in any endeavor no matter how intellectually rigorous. Yet we’re expected to believe that they have retardation level IQ’s.

    It doesn’t take a genius to figure out that the African IQ data is simply fabricated for political and ideological purposes. Then again, the clowns that traffic in this race realism/HBD junk tend to be profoundly stupid. And therein lies the great irony.

  45. Okechukwu says:
    @songbird

    I think this underscores the importance of trying to put HBD into pop culture.

    Good luck putting an absurd pseudoscience into pop culture. And good luck explaining why the proponents of HBD tend to be much dumber than the people they are trying to disparage.

    • Replies: @songbird
  46. songbird says:
    @Okechukwu

    It is funny how all the Nigerians I’ve known have held a powerful grudge against the British for drawing up the borders of Nigeria, so that it includes diverse peoples. Oddly, they see that diversity as a weakness, even as they are stalwart proponents of diversity in the West and in Europe.

    Please, tell us Okechukwu, how can that be? How to you rationalize that contradiction?

    • Replies: @Okechukwu
  47. @songbird

    I think that the Kingdom Come: Deliverance model is probably the most viable one at the moment; basically make somewhere where it can’t be shut out immediately and use the Streisand Effect to your advantage.

    Perhaps unsurprisingly, I write a lot and have written pro-reactionary material. The dangers these day come from what I call “volunteer commissars”: the vast number of people dedicated to call-out culture who will search everything for wrongthink, and then try to destroy you in order to gain social credit to themselves.

    It certainly makes me miss the days of Voltaire where someone could be a wrongthinker in peace.

    • Agree: songbird
  48. Okechukwu says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    Sweden never disappoints.

    And neither do you, Uncle Wong.

    Gee, what do we have here? It appears thousands of Chinese students are expelled and deported every year for cheating, low grades and general academic incompetence.

    U.S. COLLEGES EXPELLED AS MANY AS 8,000 CHINESE STUDENTS IN 3 YEARS

    http://www.newsweek.com/us-colleges-expelled-many-8000-chinese-students-3-years-337445

    Great work, ICE. Ship them out before they murder Americans while trying to practice medicine.

  49. @Okechukwu

    A small percentage compared to the number of black murders at the hand of other blacks.

    I know you think that your usual tactics of aggression are cute, but attempting to provoke me doesn’t work. World trends are pretty obvious. Not much else to elaborate beyond that, but fortunately, you get to live to see it.

    • Replies: @Okechukwu
  50. @Okechukwu

    The banners in this African factory are quite nice as well.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    , @Dmitry
  51. @Daniel Chieh

    Nice African tribal writing!

    • Agree: Daniel Chieh
    • Replies: @Dmitry
  52. @Okechukwu

    But Africans function normally, command multiple languages fluently and excel in any endeavor no matter how intellectually rigorous

    Apart from Ayan Hirsi Ali and that Mo Farah bloke (who can run fast, big intellectual achievement), the only newsstories about Somalis I can recall concern things like gang rape or other horrible crimes, piracy and the fact that Somalia is one of the most failed countries on earth. How do these people excel in anything, except crime and welfare dependency in the Western countries stupid enough to let them in?

    • Replies: @Anon
    , @songbird
    , @Dmitry
  53. @Okechukwu

    People with the IQ’s attributed to Africans by these pseudoscientic charlatans wouldn’t even be able to operate an automobile or brush their own teeth.

    Not so. A 70 IQ person (on the “Greenwich IQ” scale of white Britons) is roughly as smart as a 12-year-old English child. 12-year-olds are perfectly capable of operating automobiles.

    • Troll: Okechukwu
  54. Okechukwu says:
    @songbird

    It is funny how all the Nigerians I’ve known have held a powerful grudge against the British for drawing up the borders of Nigeria, so that it includes diverse peoples. Oddly, they see that diversity as a weakness, even as they are stalwart proponents of diversity in the West and in Europe.

    They tend to rue inorganic and arbitrary borders, not diversity per se. Southeast Nigeria is/was very ethnically, linguistically and culturally diverse. The Biafrans weren’t just Igbos. The British weren’t the sharpest knives in the drawer and they caused alot of havoc around the world with their arrogance and stupidity. More research and thoughtfulness in drawing borders would’ve gone a long way.

    Please, tell us Okechukwu, how can that be? How to you rationalize that contradiction?

    How do you rationalize the constant redrawing of borders in Europe and the attendant forced relocations and population transfers based on ethnicity? How does that not discombobulate the white nationalist mythos of a universal white race with shared values and ideals?

    • Replies: @DFH
    , @songbird
  55. Okechukwu says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    Very cute, Uncle Wong. I had one of your countrymen as my aunt’s primary doctor. The dude was a nightmare. He couldn’t speak English so we weren’t able to communicate with him. He had horrendous hygiene practices, did not follow proper protocols like wearing fresh rubber gloves with each patient or sanitizing his stethoscope after each use. What’s more, he had food stains all over his shirt — all verboten in an environment already teeming with germs and bacteria. Lastly, when I was in the bathroom with this joker he came out of the stall after taking a dump and walked straight out. He didn’t even make a pretense of washing his hands. Needless to say, we had a real doctor assigned to our aunt.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    , @TelfoedJohn
  56. @Okechukwu

    And somehow, you’re still losing to them.

    • Replies: @Okechukwu
  57. Okechukwu says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    Actually, hundreds of millions of Africans are wealthier and live better than hundreds of millions of Chinese. The African middle class is larger, as a percentage of the population, than China’s.

    Oh, and lookee here:

    [b]Africa’s ‘lion economies’ growth exceeds forecasts[/b]

    https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2018/02/africas-lion-economies-growth-exceeds-forecasts-180222112354500.html

    Sorry, Wong.

  58. Beckow says:
    @Pericles

    You have to ask yourself why a re-heated Cold war ‘prepare for war’ booklet was released. It could be something innocent, like a few busy-body byrocrats looking for something to do. Or it is a flat-footed result of some meeting with the ‘Atlantic’ alliance that some Swedish byrocrats took too seriously. It could scare the migrants and we wouldn’t want that, would we?

    last invaded by Russians 200+ years ago

    I hate to be picky, here, but when and by whom? It could be that if you include wars over Ingria and Finland in 18th century, you could say there was an ‘invasion’. I am not sure I would. My point is that there has never been a single Russian soldier on Swedish soil in 1,000 years, Sweden as is it is today. No invasion, nada, zilch. Why would they start now? Maybe craving that Somali take-out food?

    The Arlanda broke 1-2 stations after the airport, there was nothing there. I nice Swedish girl guided me through it, she was on her way to work in some suburb and told me that it takes her 1 1/2 hour each day to get to work. But housing is so scarce and expensive that she can only afford to live by the airport. But she – and the rest of the Swedes – were amazingly passive and fatalistic about it all. I admire that, but it won’t work in the long run.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    , @melanf
    , @Pericles
  59. Beckow says:
    @Anonymous

    anywhere near one million non-European and Muslim European migrants

    Official statistic from 2017 says that 31% of 10 million Swedes are migrants or their children. Sure, there are lost of Swedes, Poles, etc… but I think it would be reasonable to assume that at least a third of the migrants are Third World – and that gives your over 1 million. Walking around Stockholm I would guess a lot more.

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
  60. @Felix Keverich

    Japan’s figures are actually not that bad. Consider:

    • The country is in East Asia
    • The country has very few immigrants or people of immigrant origin (note: South Korea now has quite a lot)
    • The country has been prosperous for a long time
    • The country in this century has gone from Italian levels of female workforce participation to above American levels

    Japan might even have a higher TFR than some white nations once you strip out the TFR of the invaders. Note that it’s comparable to Finland (few invaders until quite recently) and Scotland (98% white)

    Obviously TFR of 1.43 and Japan is making a number of wrong moves, but this speaks to some sort of resilience in Japan which doesn’t exist elsewhere among confucian orientals.

    As for what’s wrong with South Korea, perhaps one of our oriental commenters can answer. From the outside two things stand out:

    • The plastic surgery obsession
    • The decision to embrace multiculturalism and immigration (Global Korea, dropping the pledge to the Han race)

    South Korea’s conscription might unintentionally contribute. It gives women a head start in the workforce, thereby inflating their earning power over men of the same age cohort. As women want to marry up and orientals are famously materialistic, this could have a materially negative impact on family formation.

    I suggest comparative demography between conscription countries to volunteer countries as a research topic.

    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
    , @Anonymous
  61. DFH says:
    @Okechukwu

    The British weren’t the sharpest knives in the drawer and they caused alot of havoc around the world with their arrogance and stupidity.

    Or maybe they just didn’t care very much (although they should have cared less) about Africans

  62. DFH says:

    I thought the Chinese, the Jew and the Paki were obnoxious enough, please tell me that the African isn’t going to be a permanent addition to AK’s vibrant comment section

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
  63. @Okechukwu


    I’m sure, though, that chewing the khat gives you a lot of interesting “facts.” Toodles, moron.

    • Replies: @Okechukwu
  64. @Beckow

    “Immigrant origin” includes also people with only one immigrant parent.

    The situation is not good, but even today the second largest immigrant group is still Finns.

    In 1990 it was Finns, Norwegians, and then Danes. So many adults today of immigrant origin are in fact Nordic.

    There’s another, less remarked upon, problem. The level of emigration has doubled compared to what it was in the postwar period.

    In absolute numbers it’s now comparable again to the 19th century. However it’s not clear to me what makes up this emigration and in what proportions.

    Swedes temporarily studying or working in other EU countries?

    “New Swedes” returning home?

    Permanent emigration as in the 19th century?

    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
  65. @Okechukwu

    we wuz tiger economiez n sheet

  66. Dmitry says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    Although to be fair to our new interlocutor – the slogans on those Chinese banners are in opposite of the tragic Chinese historical and still to an extent present reality.

    I can imagine the skepticism of the Africans.

    (‘Harmonious living’ from the country still recovering from the most devastating civil wars in human history).

    This is a bit like some Russian marketing itself in the West, as a land of conservative family values (the country outside Africa with the highest abortion rates, HIV rates, etc).

    Often what we value is the opposite of what we have, which I say in a sadly way, and hoping China’s future will match the beautiful slogans.

    • Replies: @Okechukwu
    , @Daniel Chieh
  67. @Beckow

    wars over Ingria and Finland in 18th century

    Finland was invaded by Russia in 1808, that’s 19th century. Swedes consider it a Russian invasion of their soil, since Finland was then part of the Kingdom of Sweden, no?

  68. Okechukwu says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    Good going, Uncle Wong. Picking Somalia is like picking the poorest region in China to represent China.

    I never said Africa was developed or advanced. That being said, you have no idea where they will be in 30-50 years. Chinese were eating rats a couple of generations ago. It was so bad that they packed themselves like sardines into shipping containers to try to escape to America.

    Tone down your unwarranted Chinese supremacism. China is a cesspit in more ways than one. And they can’t seem to figure out how to do anything on their own, but rather copy and steal and cheat.

    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
  69. @Okechukwu

    Nature Index of elite scientific research production:

    China – 7,500 (half the US level)

    Black Africa – Adds up to no more than 100 (of which 70 in South Africa, i.e. predominantly produced by their 5 million remaining Whites). Nigeria: 0.68.

  70. songbird says:
    @Okechukwu

    I’ve heard some Africans talk wistfully of old kingdoms, though I have never seen a castle, and can’t comprehend the romanticism. I rather doubt that their borders did not impinge on each other with the years and conquests. All in all, Africa seems like a pretty mixed up place. I fully support them breaking up and make smaller countries, if that is their desire, but I doubt whether it would please all, particularly the newly landlocked ones.

    I suppose the British must have thought that they would learn to get along eventually, like most Europeans do. (probably not a good idea to mix Muslims and Christians though) The proof that Europeans have learned to get along is in the way that many countries have dialects which are so different that the are basically incomprehensible. Yet, I have never heard of the Swabians attacking their fellow Germans with machetes. I suppose they did fight at one time, but the idea of tribes is pretty foreign to Europeans now. The last place they existed was Montenegro, and that was about a hundred years ago or so. In other places, they exist only in ancient history. That is probably what makes Africa so interesting to white liberals – tribes evoke the idea of the noble savage.

    What I can’t understand is, if Africa is such a happening place – so vibrant and so economically dynamic, why do Africans want to leave in such great numbers? Wouldn’t it be a better investment to stay? Why on earth would Nigerians and Somalis want to go to place with such cold and dark winters as Sweden? Are they aficionados of winter sports? And, if so, why do some want to go to the Maghreb? And others even to Yemen?

    • Replies: @Okechukwu
    , @Silva
  71. Okechukwu says:
    @Dmitry

    (‘Harmonious living’ from the country still recovering from the most devastating civil wars in human history).

    Yep. Harmonious living? China is a cauldron of civil strife:

    Wukan’s movement in December was not as unusual as it might have seemed. China saw 180,000 protests, riots, and mass demonstrations in 2010 alone — on average about 500 every day — a number that has likely since increased. The villagers’ complaints were common ones: local officials exploiting land sales for personal gain and violently repressing dissent (a village advocate had died while in police custody).

    https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2012/01/how-china-stays-stable-despite-500-protests-every-day/250940/

  72. @Dmitry

    You’re missing the most important part of the reasoning for the banner and the image: trolling.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  73. Silva says:
    @Okechukwu

    Dude, you seem to be from a smarter African minority that got slaughtered trying to free itself from the dumber (and Muslim) Africans – are you sure you want to defend the (inbred, Muslim) Somalis?

    • Replies: @Okechukwu
  74. @Thorfinnsson

    Best Korea has the most hardcore conscription, and Cicerone recently pointed out that this year they might have more births than South Korea for probably the first time ever. This is amazing, given their populations (23 million vs. 52 million, as I recall).

    Israel has the world’s second most hardcore conscription. Highest TFR of any developed nation, with 8 million people, will have 75% of the number of births of 40 million Poland.

    Many of the Scandinavian countries and Russia retain conscription, have (relatively) okay TFRs. Ofc Russia’s were catastrophic in the 1990s-early 2000s, but there were other factors at play. The USSR and the commie bloc in general, all with conscription systems, had good TFRs that did not collapse in the 1970s like in Western Europe.

    What’s wrong with South Korea? My guesses:

    1. Reaching the nadir of their demographic transition, as happened in e.g. USA/Europe during the 1970s-80s;

    2. Feminism, faggotry etc. promoted by American influence;

    3. Extreme overwork (2500 hours per year);

    4. Low female participation in workforce indicating that combining family with career in impractical (realistically speaking, you have to do that, unless you go hardcore whi- yellow sharia mode);

    5. Wages are not particularly high – similar to Greece/Portugal, as I recall, despite the ridiculous overwork and obviously much more hi-tech nature of the Korean economy.

  75. @Thorfinnsson

    Very important question – in Britain, its mostly whites leaving for Australia, Canada, and the US, making the population replacement crisis at least 50% greater than what the mere immigration figures would indicate.

  76. melanf says:
    @Beckow

    My point is that there has never been a single Russian soldier on Swedish soil in 1,000 years

    Well, that’s not technically true. The great Northern War was finished thanks to Russian sea landing on the coast of Sweden.

    The war of 1808-1809 was completed due to the fact that Russian troops crossed the Gulf of Bothnia on ice and invaded Sweden

  77. @Anatoly Karlin

    Female participation in workforce is 70% – approximately the same as in Japan. Something which surprised me as I pulled some data is that Japan is actually at 93% urbanization as opposed to Korea’s 85%, and yet it has a higher TFR. This is true even in Tokyo, so its not just distortion from their “fecund minorities” such as the Okinawans(though IIRC Okinawa still has the highest TFR in Japan).

    One thing to note though is that Japanese female participation appears to be highly part time(30-40 percent of employment) if I read the World Bank statistics correctly, whereas it is mostly full time in Korea. I’m of Jim’s opinion that lower status of women encourages fertility.

    Ancedotally, I’m aware that Japanese companies generally doesn’t encourage careerism in women – as usual, through a variety of subdued social rather than explicit legal methods.

  78. Okechukwu says:
    @songbird

    I’ve heard some Africans talk wistfully of old kingdoms, though I have never seen a castle, and can’t comprehend the romanticism.

    You do realize that Egyptians and Nubians had advanced architecture that still stands while Europeans were living in mud huts, right?

    The proof that Europeans have learned to get along is in the way that many countries have dialects which are so different that the are basically incomprehensible.

    That must be why they have WMD pointing at each other and why they need American forces there to make sure they don’t revert back to their traditional barbarity.

    I have never heard of the Swabians attacking their fellow Germans with machetes. I suppose they did fight at one time, but the idea of tribes is pretty foreign to Europeans now.

    The WWII era is NOW and we all know what happened then. Future historians will not quibble over a hundred years here or there. Don’t we use very malleable time frames when examining antiquity?

    What I can’t understand is, if Africa is such a happening place – so vibrant and so economically dynamic, why do Africans want to leave in such great numbers?

    You do realize that no other people have fled their homelands more than Europeans, right? They’ve populated entire continents.

    Why on earth would Nigerians and Somalis want to go to place with such cold and dark winters as Sweden?

    I suspect it’s economic. It’s the same reason the Swedes emigrated on masse in the mid to late 19th century when Sweden was a basketcase. If in the future there are greater opportunities in Africa than in Sweden, the Swedes will head to Africa. It’s just the way it is and it’s cyclical.

    • Agree: Bliss
    • Replies: @songbird
    , @DFH
  79. @Okechukwu

    Picking Somalia is like picking the poorest region in China to represent China.

    Would probably actually be Congo or Niger or Liberia.

    Apart from the chronic anarchism, Somalia doesn’t seem to be the worst. Eastern Africans in general seem to be doing better than Western Africans.

    Still, I’d certainly pick Gansu or Hebei or whatever the poorest Chinese province is, to Congo or Somalia or even Ethiopia (and I’m relatively upbeat on Ethiopia).

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    , @Bliss
  80. Silva says:
    @songbird

    Scotland has officially recognized tribes. And what taught Europeans to get along was centuries of concentric self-directed wars – I do think Africans should be allowed to have at least some decades of that, without a escape valve; it’d teach them what Europeans learned*, and disperse the units that can’t possibly take care of themselves.

    *: it seems a bunch of Igbos learned “don’t oppose the Hausa, they’re strong; invade the West, which is weak”, for example.

    • Replies: @DFH
    , @songbird
  81. @Anatoly Karlin

    The conscription thesis requires more rigorous examination than that. North Korea is a radically different society than South Korea. One could start by comparing age cohorts in countries that abolished conscription, and see if the differences between these age cohorts were greater in magnitude than where conscription was unchanged.

    3. Extreme overwork (2500 hours per year);

    That’s a fifty hour workweek. Not really a big deal if female labor force participation is low, unless compounded by long commutes (doubt that exists) or the culture of going out drinking with workmates.

    4. Low female participation in workforce indicating that combining family with career in impractical (realistically speaking, you have to do that, unless you go hardcore whi- yellow sharia mode);

    Do you? TFR was highest in the urbanized West (i.e. not considering the much higher rural fertility of the 19th century) when female workforce participation was at its nadir in the 1950s. There was no white sharia either–women mostly had equal rights and had for a long time (there was some minor stuff left like not being able to get a credit card without your husban’s permission).

    It was simply expected women would stop working as soon as they could afford to.

    That said if we do go hardcore white/yellow sharia in the future, women dropping out of the workforce en masse won’t actually be necessary or desirable I’ve realized. There just isn’t that much labor required to maintain a household anymore, and that figure will keep dropping. Restoring the principle of guardianship and traditional marital property laws would be enough.

    5. Wages are not particularly high – similar to Greece/Portugal, as I recall, despite the ridiculous overwork and obviously much more hi-tech nature of the Korean economy.

    Apparently higher than Japan these days: https://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2015/02/14/korean-wages-are-now-higher-than-japanese-wages-perhaps-for-the-first-time-in-3000-years/#69ea068021a0

    Cost of living slightly lower: https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_countries_result.jsp?country1=Japan&country2=South+Korea

    • Replies: @Silva
  82. Dmitry says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    Well I was going to say (although no expect on Chinese culture) that these seem to be wishes more relevant for China, as a result of the country’s recent past being the opposite of them – and for reasons which are apparent in the Chinese tragedies of the 19th and 20th centuries.

    The factory is in Ethiopia though, and the harmonious living sign would also a kind of wishful dream for that country with its civil war and communist genocides into the 1980s (in which the Soviet Union has played a very unfortunate role in its support for Mengistu).

    I don’t think China is trolling considering how much they invest in Ethiopia.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  83. DFH says:
    @Silva

    Scotland has officially recognized tribes.

    What do you mean?

  84. @Anatoly Karlin

    Indeed, I picked Ethiopia because I think it has the most future as well(so his ranting was a bit amusing, but there was no reason to correct him). The image itself is from there:

    https://www.cnbc.com/2018/04/06/ethiopia-has-new-prime-minister-while-china-style-economics-continue.html

  85. Silva says:
    @Thorfinnsson

    Women having the right to work anywhere, and choosing to be housewives instead of doing so, required high labor income, which required evil Leftist unions. And the “domestic labor” of nowadays could be actually raising the children – if one didn’t mind wives knowing as much as the husbands (and if such a thing could be done, to be fair).

  86. Pericles says:
    @Beckow

    In the war over Finland 1808-1809, Russian armies also entered Sweden as such in 1809 and briefly occupied Umeå, Kalix, Skellefteå, Piteå in northern Sweden. Apparently the Russians at one point even sent cavalry towards Stockholm over the frozen Baltic, which was kind of cool, but nothing came of that.

    As you might guess, the peace negotiations were painful and we ended up losing Finland.

    • Replies: @Beckow
  87. @Silva

    Right. Thus the concept of the “family wage” and at one point, variations of feminists actually protested for it, with the idea that it indeed enabled women who wanted to be housewives to continue to do so without suffering from a significant drop in their quality of life.

    This was defeated, of course, and my opinion is that the ever-increasing need for labor participation and later easy credit, helped hide the stall in wage increases and effectively hide the decrease in living standard for the average worker, while virtue signaling emancipation and wealth.

  88. Dmitry says:
    @reiner Tor

    Reiner tor this is Amharic. It’s cool looking alphabet for me.

  89. @Silva

    Wages in the 1950s were a lot lower than today, especially in Western Europe. In America labor income reached a plateau and stagnated rather than collapsing. If you read a typical cookbook for housewives in the 1950s its packed with tips for economizing which are shocking today, along with lots of recipes for low grade meat cuts no longer even available. Fertility on the other hand peaked in 1959 and then began rapidly collapsing. I think oral contraceptives and Sex and the Single Girl came out around the same time.

    Non-economic factors are primarily to blame, though economic factors aren’t irrelevant (takes longer to “establish” oneself these days and such, student loan burden in America, prohibitive housing costs in some other countries, etc.).

  90. @Dmitry

    They’re just aspirational Confucian-ish wishes, a kind of secular religion. Insofar as they have any deeper meaning, they’re exhortations to the workers of what to aim for: 1) work hard, 2)think of others, and 3)think of the long-term(don’t take shortcuts).

    Repetition creates a reality in its own way.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  91. songbird says:
    @Silva

    Scotland has officially recognized tribes.

    I am honestly really confused on what these terms mean exactly, but I think you mean clans, which are sort of like sub-tribes, or related families.

    If you read some of the extant medieval Irish texts, you can get the idea that many surnames come from clans and on top of that they seem to have had references to groups which I think must be tribes like the Dalcassians. There are also regions which correspond to old tribes like Burgundy, but I think the idea of tribes is mostly long vanished from Europe.

    I agree with your general premise though that fair’s fair, and they need to be left alone for some time to see if they can work out their differences, and I believe interventions probably don’t help. As well, I think aid is in general negative, and they should be left to develop without it.

    • Replies: @DFH
  92. @Anonymous

    In Switzerland the far right SVP is strong- and part of the government since it’s founding.

  93. songbird says:
    @Okechukwu

    I’d put anything built in Europe against anything built by the Bantu any day. What do you want to compare to Great Zimbabwe? The Parthenon? The Pantheon? St. Paul’s Cathedral? Perhaps there is some other place that the Bantu built that you would like to compare?

    Nuclear weapons, when used properly, are tools of peace. I’m not losing any sleep about the Ruskies pointing their missiles at me; actually, it makes me sleep better.

    The pace of migration which taking place now is totally unprecedented. It is not equaled before in history. It seems to me rather more desperate certainly than anything after the combustion engine was invented. And they are using it to escape, in their dinghies. That doesn’t not seem to be part of any cycle. I don’t recall anyone welcoming Europeans as warmly as they expect to be welcomed either. Certainly no welfare for the Swedes in New Sweden.

    • Replies: @Okechukwu
  94. Beckow says:
    @Pericles

    So you could say that Russians invaded Finland, but nor really Sweden as it is today; the ‘Swedish’ Sweden, not its colonies or dependencies. Finland should really belong to the Finns, ‘losing it’ is an odd way to describe it.

    I didn’t know about Russian army crossing into Sweden proper in the north, thanks for enlightening me. It does seem rather minor.

    • Replies: @Pericles
  95. DFH says:
    @Okechukwu

    You do realize that Egyptians and Nubians had advanced architecture that still stands while Europeans were living in mud huts, right?

  96. DFH says:
    @songbird

    I am honestly really confused on what these terms mean exactly, but I think you mean clans, which are sort of like sub-tribes, or related families.

    If he means that then he is wrong since any ‘official recognition’ they had was destroyed by the heritable jurisdictions act of 1746

  97. Dmitry says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    I agree the aspirational – it’s like bathroom mirror reminders that Chinese put for themselves.

    And also it is interesting in usually relating to things one is oneself (as a nationality) feeling weakest for.

    We also had a little of these ironic exhortations.

    Some reminders on time management:

    The Chinese signs are missing our social pressure component though:

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  98. Okechukwu says:
    @songbird

    I’d put anything built in Europe against anything built by the Bantu any day. What do you want to compare to Great Zimbabwe? The Parthenon? The Pantheon? St. Paul’s Cathedral?

    But the Europeans who would later unleash the destructive forces of white supremacy didn’t build any of those things. They were barbarian savages by the standards of the times. Europe is a social construct, little more than a line on a map. The builders of those structures would not identify themselves with European barbarians, nor would they embrace any sort of ethnic or cultural affinity with the same barbarians. Moreover, it was the civilizational spark from the aforementioned Egyptians and Nubians that radiated up to the Ancient Greeks and Romans and heavily influenced their own achievements.

    Nuclear weapons, when used properly, are tools of peace. I’m not losing any sleep about the Ruskies pointing their missiles at me; actually, it makes me sleep better.

    Those weapons will be used one day. It’s inevitable. Then you won’t sleep so well.

    The pace of migration which taking place now is totally unprecedented. It is not equaled before in history.

    That’s absurd. Once again, Europeans have occupied entire continents. Today’s immigration is a barely perceptible trickle by comparison.

    I don’t recall anyone welcoming Europeans as warmly as they expect to be welcomed either.

    Where in the world or in Africa are Europeans unwelcome? Usually Europeans are given red carpet treatment in the developing world. White privilege doesn’t only exist in white countries. I have an Iraqi business associate who takes a white guy with him to all his meetings in the Middle East. The white guy just sits there and says nothing. Why? Because white privilege is a global phenomenon. My associate gains instant gravitas simply by having a white guy present.

    Certainly no welfare for the Swedes in New Sweden.

    The Swedes were given free land and all manner of assistance upon arrival in America. Black Americans who had been here for hundreds of years slaving away were not afforded the same opportunities.

    • Replies: @Bliss
  99. Okechukwu says:
    @Silva

    I’m interested in facts and empirical science. I loathe racially motivated nonsense being promoted as facts or science.

    So the question becomes: Which Somalis were IQ tested? Who tested them? Where? When? How? Sample size, etc.? Pretend that you’re in a court of law and you’re out to prove that Somalis have an IQ of 70. Okay, where’s your evidence?

    I understand the motivation. Some people are wracked by severe pangs of inferiority in various aspects of their lives and they find succor in looking down on others. But, ultimately, that’s tantamount to trying to drown out problems with drugs or alcohol. Others think that they can restrict immigration if only they can convince everyone that potential black or brown immigrants are too stupid or too unfit for western societies. But normal society including the people in position to enact policy aren’t dumb enough to believe that.

    • Troll: German_reader
    • Replies: @Hyperborean
    , @utu
  100. @DFH

    No one ever expects the diversity inquisition!

  101. @Okechukwu

    Don’t put the cart before the horse, it makes you look foolish.

  102. @Dmitry

    At least in the first link (which is also about Japan) – are you sure ? At least from watching videos, school looks pretty nice in Japan, and some of their schools they grow the food for lunch.

    I only saw the two replies from a Korean guy and a teacher in Korea, not from Japanese. I’m not well informed about their schools today. In the economic boom era, they had mad exam cramming since kindergarten, as written in this 1980s book. By now – probably got more chill. Food is of course extremely important in the life of Japanese people at any time.

    Зубрежка продолжается после школьных и домашних занятий в так называемых “дзюку”, то есть на платных курсах. Каждый вечер до полуночи, иногда и в воскресенье школьники учат, не учатся, а именно учат, исторические факты — все подряд по хронологической таблице, английские слова — по словарю, страница за страницей, названия станций на главных железнодорожных магистралях — по расписанию поездов, маршрут за маршрутом. “Будешь спать четыре часа — в университет попадешь, будешь спать пять часов — провалишься”, — бытует в Японии поговорка. 

    http://flibusta.is/b/215916/read#t9

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  103. utu says:
    @Okechukwu

    I’m interested in facts and empirical science.

    Good you adopted one of the most important value of Western civilization. Stick to it.

    Ancient Egyptian mummy genomes suggest an increase of Sub-Saharan African ancestry in post-Roman periods

    https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms15694

    We find that ancient Egyptians are most closely related to Neolithic and Bronze Age samples in the Levant, as well as to Neolithic Anatolian and European populations (Fig. 5a,b). When comparing this pattern with modern Egyptians, we find that the ancient Egyptians are more closely related to all modern and ancient European populations that we tested

    Mummy DNA unravels ancient Egyptians’ ancestry
    Genetic analysis reveals a close relationship with Middle Easterners, not central Africans.

    https://www.nature.com/news/mummy-dna-unravels-ancient-egyptians-ancestry-1.22069

    Both types of genomic material showed that ancient Egyptians shared little DNA with modern sub-Saharan Africans. Instead, their closest relatives were people living during the Neolithic and Bronze ages in an area known as the Levant. Strikingly, the mummies were more closely related to ancient Europeans and Anatolians than to modern Egyptians.

    Can you stop this nonsense about ancient Egypt as if it had any connection with the so-called Africans meaning the sub-Sahara Africans. The concept of Africa is relatively new. It is a construct made by Greeks which were Europeans. Egypt used to be considered to be a part of Asia until Ptolemy. It is a construct. Just like the eastern border of Europe is a construct. The term Africa referred to Northern Africa. Ask anybody who lives there now if they are Africans in the same sense as your people, i.e., sub Sahara Africans like Nigerians and they will bluntly tell you that they have nothing in common with Kaffirs like you and are sorry that they have to share a continent with you. Go to Libya, which is also in Africa and you may end up on the slave auction. Yes, slave auction in Africa run by Africans in 2018. This nonsense about Africa and Egypt you shamelessly bring up here can on fly among some semantically confuse Afro-Americans.

    • Replies: @Bliss
  104. songbird says:

    But the Europeans who would later unleash the destructive forces of white supremacy didn’t build any of those things. They were barbarian savages by the standards of the times.

    I must admit, you have lost me here. Are you speaking of the Nazis? They were not particularly known for good architecture, at least not in a critical way. But they did built many impressive things: jet engines and rockets. Germans as a whole certainly built many impressive things. For instance, Cologne Cathedral. In many cities, the average person can’t even keep track of all the old, impressive churches. I wouldn’t say that Nazis were white supremacists though – they did not like the Slavs. They thought Italians were a joke. There’s not a lot of overlap with them and nationalists in general.

    [MORE]

    The Parthenon was built in 447 BC. It beats anything the Bantu ever designed and built up to the current moment. There is even a lot before that which does. The Treasury of Atreus was built about 1250 BC, and is probably more impressive than anything the Bantu built. Newgrange was built about 3200 BC, it is older than the pyramids. Not quite as impressive, but I’m not too sure a giant limestone structure would stand up to 5,000 years of winters, or rain. Not sure, it is really a great use of labor either. Seems kind of megalomaniacal. Europe didn’t have the same population either because of climate. Still, I wouldn’t put down their early contributions either. The wheel is pretty useful, so is the horse. Africans didn’t really domesticate any useful animals.

    Europe is a social construct, little more than a line on a map.

    Did the Bantu even have maps?

    Today’s immigration is a barely perceptible trickle by comparison.

    Is that what it is called when lines of people snake over the horizon?

    Where in the world or in Africa are Europeans unwelcome?

    Zimbabwe. South Africa. North Africa. Really, anywhere they are not in the majority, if their numbers actually seem to be growing.

    Black Americans who had been here for hundreds of years slaving away were not afforded the same opportunities.

    The Bantu got plenty of free land, when they killed the San and Khoi. They didn’t seem to do much with it though.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
  105. @Dmitry

    The word “harmony” like the colors green and red being worn there, are all of ritual and essentially religious significance. Trying to explain it in a purely secular way wouldn’t work. In a way, its a decent example of the transcendent or traces of premodern spirituality/superstition that permeates even day to day Chinese life.

    • Replies: @AaronB
  106. Anon[298] • Disclaimer says:
    @German_reader

    gang rape or other horrible crimes, piracy

    Yes, but they excel at these difficult tasks.

    • Replies: @German_reader
  107. inertial says:
    @Jaakko Raipala

    Instapundit links to a photo of an American tank in Finland doing live-fire exercises with the Finnish army. According to the post and the comments, the Finns expect a Russian invasion any minute now…

    • Replies: @Jaakko Raipala
  108. AaronB says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    its a decent example of the transcendent or traces of premodern spirituality/superstition that permeates even day to day Chinese life.

    And the source of your current superiority to us.

    May you never lose it :)

    And may we swiftly regain it.

    I shall do my small part – but it would be nice if you Chinese took pity on us and lent us a helping hand.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  109. songbird says:
    @German_reader

    And Ayan Hirsi Ali lied to gain asylum.

  110. @AaronB

    I’m actually pretty skeptical of China(I really dislike impediments on free speech as a principle). The best that I can feel about it sometimes is that it seems to make slightly fewer mistakes.

    Really until it can fix itself back to 2.0 TFR or so, its not really in a great position to tell anyone anything.

    • Replies: @AaronB
    , @Wis98
  111. AaronB says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    True, true, true. I forget that sometimes. You are better than us but not in the best state yourself. You have to fix yourselves first.

    We’re just so hopeless that I sometimes think an outside power needs to help us – make us snap out of it.

    In the end we’ll have to fix ourselves also. We’ll do it. Patience, and the long game.

  112. Dmitry says:
    @German_reader

    To be fair, they did a pretty a good job on the ‘Cyborgs’ of Donetsk airport.

  113. Bliss says:
    @Okechukwu

    But the Europeans who would later unleash the destructive forces of white supremacy didn’t build any of those things. They were barbarian savages by the standards of the times. Europe is a social construct, little more than a line on a map. The builders of those structures would not identify themselves with European barbarians, nor would they embrace any sort of ethnic or cultural affinity with the same barbarians. Moreover, it was the civilizational spark from the aforementioned Egyptians and Nubians that radiated up to the Ancient Greeks and Romans and heavily influenced their own achievements.

    Very true. But that does not stop these folks from claiming to be the real Ancient Egyptians, Greeks and Romans. And more.

    The Swedes were given free land and all manner of assistance upon arrival in America. Black Americans who had been here for hundreds of years slaving away were not afforded the same opportunities.

    Exactly. Not just the Swedes but also the Norwegians, Germans etc. The Italians, Irish, Slavs etc were excluded from these handouts.

    African-Americans were promised 40 acres and a mule. Of course that didn’t happen.

    • Agree: Okechukwu
    • Replies: @German_reader
  114. Bliss says:
    @utu

    Unfortunately for you:

    http://courses.wcupa.edu/jones/his311/notes/herod.htm

    The Greek writer Herodotus was best early source on Africa. Little is known about his life. Herodotus was born in Halicarnassus (modern Bodrun) on the southwest coast of Asia Minor, around 480BC, at a time when Halicarnassus was under the rule of a Persian Satrap, a woman named Artemisia.

    Herodotus believed that the Colchians (southern Black Sea area) were introduced to Asia by Egyptian expansion as far as Thrace and Scythia because “they have black skins and curly hair (not that that amounts to much, as other nations have the same).” [Herodotus, Histories, 167.] They also practised circumcision, unlike Mediterranean peoples of the time.

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
    , @utu
  115. Bliss says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    Eastern Africans in general seem to be doing better than Western Africans.

    Not really. Nigeria has around 3 times the per capita income (nominal) of Ethiopia with around 2 times the population. Here’s a nice video about the Nigerian city of Lagos, the most populous city in all of Africa:

    • Replies: @Bliss
  116. @songbird

    the Nazis? They were not particularly known for good architecture

    I disagree.

    I think the Nazi architecture (really, Hitler’s architecture – architecture being his hobby, he personally overlooked the planning of all major buildings) was impressive. The Reich Chancellery building had to be demolished, because they thought it would be too impressive and thus preserve Hitler’s name or something. The building of the Reich Aviation Ministry was also impressive (and modernist – Hitler thought that only a modern building was good enough for such a modern function), it still stands to this day (housing the German ministry of finance).

    But most of what they were planning to build never got built. The usual criticism is that these plans were megalomaniacal, typical of a totalitarian dictatorship like Nazi Germany. Well, I guess that’s the reason why no skyscrapers were ever built in democratic countries – they just look too megalomaniacal.

    • Replies: @songbird
    , @dfordoom
  117. Bliss says:
    @Bliss

    On the other hand Ethiopia is growing its economy faster than Nigeria.

    Here’s a quick look at most all the countries in Africa:

  118. Pericles says:
    @Beckow

    So you could say that Russians invaded Finland, but nor really Sweden as it is today

    Huh? What I’m saying is they obviously were in Sweden too.

    Finland should really belong to the Finns, ‘losing it’ is an odd way to describe it.

    Finland was part of Sweden for about 600 years before that so I don’t find it that odd.

    Anyway, there you have the background.

  119. Wis98 says: • Website
    @Daniel Chieh

    What makes you think that Chinese are any less suceptible to liberalism or thinking the trannies are female than Whites? Remember Taiwan and gay marriage?

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  120. @Bliss

    You’re a lot better at this than Tiny Duck. Have you been learning from Corvinus?

  121. utu says:
    @Bliss

    Unfortunately to [DNA results]

    Do not manipulate by reversing chronology. Recent DNA results are ‘unfortunate’to those who based their hypothesis on sources like Herodotus before DNA testing existed not the other way around. Now fortunately with DNA results we can retire the audacious and valiant hypothesis of Cheikh Anta Diop which never was adopted by majority of historians though for obvious reason was attractive to some Africans.

    • Replies: @Okechukwu
  122. @Anon

    Gang rape isn’t an intellectually demanding task though. I suppose piracy does require some organizational skills however.
    The annoying African may even have a point that the IQ data for dysfunctional countries like Somalia may not have a solid basis. That’s irrelevant however. There’s enough experience with Somalis in Western countries now to know that in general they’re horrible, useless (highest unemployment rate in the UK iirc) and parasitical people who should never be allowed to immigrate.

    • Replies: @songbird
  123. @Bliss

    Very true. But that does not stop these folks from claiming to be the real Ancient Egyptians, Greeks and Romans.

    Only Europeans who claim the ancient Egyptians as their own are fringe white nationalist people, it’s not a mainstream view even among nationalists.
    Identification with the Romans is of course completely legitimate for Italians and other Romance peoples, and in a cultural sense for Northern Europeans as well, given the importance of the Roman legacy for Europe. Most Northerners are well aware of their “barbarian” background though and identify to some extent with Celts, Germanics, Slavs.

    Exactly. Not just the Swedes but also the Norwegians, Germans etc. The Italians, Irish, Slavs etc were excluded from these handouts.

    Source for that, or is it just a myth about the innate evil of Anglo-Saxons/Nordics?

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    , @songbird
    , @Bliss
  124. Anonymous[126] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    2. Feminism, faggotry etc. promoted by American influence;

    Never seen a clear explanation for how the prominence of gays in culture leads to fertility declines.

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
  125. Anonymous[405] • Disclaimer says:
    @Thorfinnsson

    South Korea has a lot of Chinese migrants of Korean background. The East Asian country that is swamped by forced multiculturalism is Hong Kong. 20,000 asylum seekers and counting. Imposed on it by its common law courts.

  126. @Wis98

    Well, as the Cultural Revolution and Mao’s Magic Mangos show, the Chinese aren’t immune from insane signaling spirals although it can be muted in some areas by a natural conservativism which I think is promoted by the written language as reserve of culture; however, in this case, its more that the absurd liberal values and signaling points serve as Schelling Points for power grabs by status maximizers in a demotic environment and promoted from NGOs including the infamous Open Society Foundation(Soros’ baby). Hungary’s crackdown on NGOs has also helped them against liberal influence, for example.

    Simply by evicting foreign NGOs from their infiltration, and secondarily by having secure power such that signaling for gheys does not form a point to rally from, such absurdities are curbed. But I do generally believe that anywhere that NGOs are allowed to operate unhindered and the power structures are highly demotic, that East Asian culture is not really much of a hinderance(South Korea, for another example).

    Taiwan itself is essentially a corpse of a society, or soon there. Its effectively getting pwnt by both the US and China simultaneously, and its population engage in positively hopeful discussions such as “we are going to be overrun in ten years? Or maybe thirty!” It should be put out of its misery.

  127. @German_reader

    Free land was available through the Homestead Acts.

    No one was excluded other than rebels, and that includes blacks. Even women were eligible.

    I’m not sure why more Irish didn’t take up homesteading (perhaps they’d had enough of farming in Ireland), but the Italians and Slavs largely arrived too late to take advantage of it. Some blacks did in fact take advantage.

    40 Acres and a Mule was a proposal by German Sherman, never official policy. There was no reason to reward Southern slaves in any case as they did next to nothing to assist the Union (surprise surprise) in the Civil War.

    Had 40 Acres and a Mule been implemented, the results would’ve been similar to the Georgia Land Lottery, only swifter. I assume nearly all blacks receiving 40 Acres and a Mule would’ve lost their farms within a generation, and Southern agricultural output would’ve dropped even more catastrophically than the irrational abolition of slavery already accomplished (1860 yields didn’t return until 1890–thanks Lincoln).

    There’s no sense arguing with negroes about this. Complete waste of time. In general getting any individual or group to plainly admit inferiority is a fool’s errand.

    • Replies: @German_reader
  128. @Anonymous

    Gays invented “dating”. Think about that one for a second.

    More direct impacts including:

    1 – More women choose to become lesbian (lesbianism is fake as all women are bisexual)
    2 – Homo-sexual males choose no longer marry women and reproduce with them

  129. songbird says:
    @German_reader

    The annoying African may even have a point that the IQ data for dysfunctional countries like Somalia may not have a solid basis.

    I’m sure living among whites boosts it a few points. They may even approach the black American average of 85, after a generation or two. That would still be problematic though.

  130. songbird says:
    @reiner Tor

    I don’t think what they built was ugly exactly, and the interiors were probably better looking. But it is hard to like it in the backdrop of much better looking buildings in Germany. Berlin hadn’t been devastated in WWI, so a lot of the old architecture was still around. They probably even tore a few good-looking buildings down to build what they built.

  131. @Thorfinnsson

    but the Italians and Slavs largely arrived too late to take advantage of it

    The Western frontier was officially closed in the 1890s, wasn’t it? I suppose most Italians and Slavs did indeed arrive after that.
    But as I suspected, Bliss’ claim of Nordic discrimination against other whites is factually incorrect.

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
  132. songbird says:
    @German_reader

    I’m not really a booster of an ancient Egyptian connection to Europe. Only in a way there is a tangential one: most of what we know of them comes from the Greeks. The language could not be read without them. The chronology would not survive without them.

    I think it is fair for all Europeans to feel some pride in ancient Greek accomplishments, for we all share some of the same blood, whether that is Early European Farmer or not. Meanwhile, many Romans were basically flat out Northern Europeans. Rome is above the Hajnal line, and many Romans did not even come from Rome but from Northern Italy or other locations. Virgil, one of the greatest writers of all time, came from Mantua.

    But, of course, these ancient comparisons are somewhat tendentious. The only interesting things blacks built in Africa are in NE Africa – in Ethiopia and Sudan where there is the most Eurasian genetic inflow. The Bantu built nothing interesting whatsoever, unless you count Great Zimbabwe, and it is not really that great, and far exceeded by things built hundreds of years previously in Northern Europe.

    • Replies: @German_reader
  133. @inertial

    Seems to be mostly American patriotards in that thread complaining about why they would defend Finland. Well, I wouldn’t defend Finland either if it’s going to be a country that invites American tanks on its soil. If you have the military of a Great Power in your country, it inevitably means that your politics gets rewritten according to their desires and the American tanks come together with American NGOs that promote multiculturalism, poz and anti-nationhood.

    I think the traitors in charge are so stupid that they don’t even see where this is going. If Russia gets some revanchist in charge after Putin and they actually decide to re-annex Finland, I think our politicians will be honestly surprised how few Finns will show up to defend this state after they’ve spent decades telling us that nationalism is evil, patriotism is low class, Finnish people and culture don’t exist and everything has come from the outside, Christianity is a ridiculous belief system so we must welcome Islam, national borders are outdated blah blah blah.

    And it all started when the USSR collapsed and Finland aligned with the West. It was embarrassing to be a Soviet puppet state but having our politicians praise Stalin for 50 years was an embarrassment without permanent consequences, this demographic destruction that the West promotes is far worse.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  134. @songbird

    The language could not be read without them. The chronology would not survive without them.

    I’m not sure that’s true, apart from the fact that the multilingual Rosetta stone was crucial for the decipherment of hieroglyphics. Coptic (if I understand correctly a direct descendant of the ancient Egyptians’ language) did survive until modern times after all, and had a significant literary tradition, I suppose without that reading ancient Egyptian texts would have been impossible.
    Doesn’t chronology depend (apart from inscriptions) on the works of Manetho who supposedly was a native Egyptian priest?

    I think it is fair for all Europeans to feel some pride in ancient Greek accomplishments, for we all share some of the same blood, whether that is Early European Farmer or not.

    I’d actually admit that Bliss and the annoying African are to some extent correct insofar as the ancient Greeks were in close contact with the older civilizations of the Mideast (Mesopotamia, Phoenicians etc.) and Egypt, with significant cultural exchange. The Greeks were generally xenophobic, but it’s probably true that they would have felt more in common with a Persian than with invading Celts who were just seen as alien, savage barbarians.
    That being said, since the Greco-Roman heritage only survived, at least in fragments, in Europe I do think Europeans can legitimately regard Greco-Roman civilization as their own precursors.
    And none of this changes the fact that Bantu peoples have historically been civilizationally insignificant. Maybe that will change someday, but since even “intelligent” Africans seem to mostly obsess over the evil white man instead of actually dealing with their own problems I have my doubts.

    • Replies: @songbird
  135. @German_reader

    It was never “closed” per se, it just ended. The frontier was a continuous line which moved westward as Americans expanded, and it was defined by population density (fewer than two inhabitants per square mile). In 1890 this line broke up.

    There was still more land to be homesteaded, primarily in the very dry southern great plains. This got homesteaded in the early 20th century. The land was basically dry pasture and unsuitable for agriculture. So dry the farmers had to practice “deep plough” farming.

    These farms were all destroyed during the horrific Dust Bowl under the Great Depression. The farmers lost everything and their towns collapsed into ghost towns, which you can still visit today. The farmers went bankrupt and mostly migrated to California as desperate landless laborers in the middle of the Depression, as dramatized in John Steinbeck’s The Grapes of Wrath.

    There’s a very good museum in Denver dedicated to this.

    You can compare it to the USSR’s failed Virgin Lands campaign, but with a much worse outcome for the farmers since they bore all the risk personally.

    The Italians and Slavs who did not homestead this land should be grateful.

    Homesteading officially ended in 1976, and in Alaska in 1986. Mainly because of environmentalist control freaks, and possibly some corporate interests as well (i.e. desire to underpay for grazing, timber, mineral rights).

  136. Dmitry says:
    @Jaakko Raipala

    Considering that Finland is a voluntary member of the EU, I don’t think you can blame so much on the American occupation (even if this makes life more simple on the explanatory level).

    Japan is occupied by America, but they have only imported some compatible for them aspects of the American worldview like baseball, while otherwise maintaining significant distance in other cultural and intellectual aspects – more distance than with many non-aligning to American foreign policy countries (the Japanese create more distance from American culture, than our own culture does).

    (Although perhaps not a totally fair comparison since Japanese have the natural barrier of a very different language, which in Europe there is not).

  137. songbird says:
    @German_reader

    Regarding Coptic, I believe that the grammar is similar, but I don’t know how possible it would be to understand the text from that. The Copts used an alphabet derived from Greek and would not have understood hieroglyphs at all.

    Doesn’t chronology depend (apart from inscriptions) on the works of Manetho

    There’s a bit of debate about that. To start with, if written by Manetho, it would have been commissioned by the Ptolemies. Surviving references to Manetho seem to have an odd gap away from when it was supposedly written. Some believe Manetho was invented to give the work more legitimacy, and it was actually written by a Greek named Ptolemy of Mendes, who was said to have written a history of ancient Egypt.

    But these are just arguments of fine points. There isn’t any cultural continuation between ancient and modern Egypt. If they were more advanced in 2,000 BC, what did they do with their head start? Why did they not conquer Europe like the Greeks conquered Egypt? I don’t think “where are your pyramids?” is a good deconstruction of Europe, and that is certainly what it is meant to be.

    • Replies: @German_reader
  138. @songbird

    There isn’t any cultural continuation between ancient and modern Egypt.

    Yes, Islam and the Arabization linked to it destroyed any continuity. That’s one of the things I find creepiest about Islam, how in many societies it has managed to largely erase any clear sense of the pre-Islamic past (admittedly not everywhere, e.g. in Iran cultural memory of the time before Islam does seem to exist to some extent if I understand correctly).

    I don’t think “where are your pyramids?” is a good deconstruction of Europe, and that is certainly what it is meant to be.

    I agree. It’s also especially ridiculous when coming from a Nigerian.

  139. Dmitry says:
    @Toronto Russian

    I think also they are in their 20s, they are complaining a lot about pressure.

    We used to have to call guys at Hitachi a few times for our job – and I remember all we heard from them when we asked them how they are doing – ‘work is bad’ or ‘it is very very bad’.

    Probably we have to teach them some of our skills of pretending to work while surfing the internet, posting on forums, and watching YouTube videos with headphones.

    • LOL: Toronto Russian
  140. Okechukwu says:
    @utu

    Yeah, I can just see some pinkish Northern European types running around shirtless in the Egyptian sun. Meanwhile, their brethren were more or less cavemen back in Europe. That makes absolutely no sense.

    If you read the caveats, disclaimers and peer reviews attached to the study you are referring to, you will quickly discover that you are the one attempting to make an emphatic determination based on faulty and insufficient data. Given the eventual polyethnic nature of Ancient Egypt, one can find virtually anything one is looking for in the genetic and anthropological records. A future examination of United States specimens will yield similar results. But that would tell us nothing as to who were the original inhabitants of the United States.

    All available evidence, including artwork and statuary, point to a black African origin of Ancient Egypt.

    I also mentioned Nubia in my OP. Nubian civilization actually predates and informed Egypt’s. Let me guess, you believe they were white too.

    • Troll: German_reader
    • Replies: @AaronB
    , @Anon
    , @utu
    , @melanf
    , @melanf
  141. AaronB says:
    @Okechukwu

    Why not – I say let’s give you Egypt. Lets be generous about it.

    There is obviously a substantial black element in Egypt, whatever its precise magnitude. This should be emphasized and become a source of pride for blacks. You can emulate it and strive to become like that again.

    So, Egypt is yours at least partially, and now you should strive to emulate it!

    Why not become worthy of the glorious civilization of Egypt once again? Blacks are obviously capable of civilization as they made a substantial ethnic contribution to one of the world’s greatest civilizations – lets use that as something to emulate now in the modern world, where blacks are in such bad shape.

    Every young black child should be told about his connection to Egypt and be encouraged to emulate it as much as possible.

    Btw, did you know that the black/white school achievement gap in Britain has completely closed? Pretty incredible – demolishes the veterinarians.

  142. AaronB says:
    @AaronB

    Errr, demolishes the hereditarians.

  143. Anon[298] • Disclaimer says:
    @Okechukwu

    Yeah, I can just see some pinkish Northern European types running around shirtless in the Egyptian sun. Meanwhile, their brethren were more or less cavemen back in Europe. That makes absolutely no sense.

    True. Egyptian civilization was built by black men like these guys:
    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e2/Muhammad_Naguib_1953.jpg

    Sure, there’s a small sub-Saharan component in Egypt. But in the end of your comment you get to Nubia which makes a lot more sense for any sort of black triumphalism.

    But that would tell us nothing as to who were the original inhabitants of the United States.

    It helps: https://www.nature.com/news/north-america-s-oldest-mummy-returned-to-us-tribe-after-genome-sequencing-1.21108

  144. songbird says:
    @AaronB

    Why not be generous? I will give him Enver Hoxha’s pyramid too, just so long as Nigerians don’t camp out in it.

    demolishes the hereditarians

    Afraid that is not parsimony. Supposing, you gave British blacks an actual IQ test and it matched, you would still be left with an awful lot to explain. For instance, why have blacks failed so miserably in America, despite enormous sums of money and good intentions? How is it in the internet age, success cannot be easily found and duplicated? Why is Africa always dead last? And within the Western Hemisphere, Haiti?

    The hereditarians have parsimony on their side and always have had it on their side.

  145. @songbird

    When I looked up Enver Hoxha’s pyramid, I was very disappointed to see the graffiti on it :(

    • Replies: @songbird
  146. Okechukwu says:
    @AaronB

    Why not become worthy of the glorious civilization of Egypt once again? Blacks are obviously capable of civilization as they made a substantial ethnic contribution to one of the world’s greatest civilizations – lets use that as something to emulate now in the modern world, where blacks are in such bad shape.

    It’s impossible to disentangle Ancient Egypt from the black African matrix. However, it most assuredly was not the only black civilization of note. In Western Africa, where my parents are from, we can look with pride to a multitude of civilizations and kingdoms, including those that were situated in present-day Nigeria such as Benin.

    On Benin:

    Impressed Europeans came back from Benin City with stories of the magnificence of the Benin. A seventeenth century Dutch engraving from Olfert Dapper’s Nauwkeurige Beschrijvinge der Afrikaansche Gewesten, published in Amsterdam in 1668 wrote:

    “The king’s palace or court is a square, and is as large as the town of Haarlem and entirely surrounded by a special wall, like that which encircles the town. It is divided into many magnificent palaces, houses, and apartments of the courtiers, and comprises beautiful and long square galleries, about as large as the Exchange at Amsterdam, but one larger than another, resting on wooden pillars, from top to bottom covered with cast copper, on which are engraved the pictures of their war exploits and battles…”

    http://www.historywiz.com/benincity.html

    Btw, did you know that the black/white school achievement gap in Britain has completely closed? Pretty incredible – demolishes the veterinarians.

    Sure I knew. But if you think that’s going to stop or demoralize hereditarians you’re in for a rude awakening. When confronted with inconvenient data they simply redouble their efforts and reach deeper into their bag of pseudoscientific graffiti which they’ll fling on the wall hoping some stick. If all else fails they’ll troll with evermore ridiculous homemade graphs from some obscure white supremacist website.

    A constant motif here on Unz and similar echo-chambers is the notion that “race deniers” are unwilling to engage the “hard truths” of race and intelligence. But the reality is, to the extent that anyone wants to broach the subject it is so-called race realists (i.e., racists) who make discussion impossible. Because they reflexively reject any idea, any concept or any piece of information that doesn’t comport with their racialist preconceptions and worldview. They clamor seemingly for a national initiative to investigate this subject knowing full well that they will only accept the conclusions they are pining for.

  147. songbird says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    I suppose there is a lot of hard feelings, since he still lives in people’s memories. I myself am not in favor of tearing it down, but I don’t know what the maintenance on it may cost.

    They have tried to repurpose it a few times. Latest idea is to plant trees inside it.

  148. Okechukwu says:
    @AaronB

    Why not become worthy of the glorious civilization of Egypt once again? Blacks are obviously capable of civilization as they made a substantial ethnic contribution to one of the world’s greatest civilizations – lets use that as something to emulate now in the modern world, where blacks are in such bad shape.

    It’s impossible to disentangle Ancient Egypt from the black African matrix. However, it most assuredly was not the only black civilization of note. In Western Africa, where my parents are from, we can look with pride to a multitude of civilizations and kingdoms, including those that were situated in present-day Nigeria such as Benin.

    Btw, did you know that the black/white school achievement gap in Britain has completely closed? Pretty incredible – demolishes the veterinarians.

    Sure I knew. But if you think that’s going to stop or demoralize hereditarians you’re in for a rude awakening. When confronted with inconvenient data they simply redouble their efforts and reach deeper into their bag of pseudoscientific graffiti which they’ll fling on the wall hoping some stick. If all else fails they’ll troll with evermore ridiculous homemade graphs from some obscure white supremacist website.

    A constant motif here on Unz and similar echo-chambers is the notion that “race deniers” are unwilling to engage the “hard truths” of race and intelligence. But the reality is, to the extent that anyone wants to broach the subject it is so-called race realists (i.e., racists) who make discussion impossible. Because they reflexively reject any idea, any concept or any piece of information that doesn’t comport with their racialist preconceptions and worldview. They clamor seemingly for a national initiative to investigate this subject knowing full well that they will only accept the conclusions they are pining for.

    • Troll: German_reader
  149. Okechukwu says:
    @songbird

    For instance, why have blacks failed so miserably in America,

    Given what they’ve been through black Americans are arguably the most successful people on the planet.

    Why is Africa always dead last? And within the Western Hemisphere, Haiti?

    Dead last in which metric? How is that relevant to intelligence? At various points in history, Europe was dead last. Did that speak to their innate intelligence?

    Why focus on Haiti? Aren’t there other black majority countries in the Caribbean? It’s this kind of deceitful cherrypicking that makes your ideology a joke.

    • Replies: @songbird
    , @Thorfinnsson
  150. AaronB says:
    @Okechukwu

    In Western Africa, where my parents are from, we can look with pride to a multitude of civilizations and kingdoms, including those that were situated in present-day Nigeria such as Benin.

    I don’t know much about African history, but I’m not at all surprised. And you should be proud of these kingdoms and make them into a pattern to emulate for young blacks today.

    The more we publicize African civilizational achievements and encourage young blacks to consider it a pattern worth emulating the better for everyone involved.

    I was in southern Ethiopia on the border with Kenya, and the blacks I saw there seemed perfectly civilized people in the truest sense – they weren’t urbanized and they lived simply, but they were dignified and courteous, intelligent and attractive. I have no doubt in a healthy culture – not degraded modern America – such people could be very peaceful and productive citizens.

    When confronted with inconvenient data they simply redouble their efforts and reach deeper into their bag of pseudoscientific graffiti which they’ll fling on the wall hoping some stick

    Lol, sadly this is only too true.

    But the reality is, to the extent that anyone wants to broach the subject it is so-called race realists (i.e., racists) who make discussion impossible. Because they reflexively reject any idea, any concept or any piece of information that doesn’t comport with their racialist preconceptions and worldview

    This also is very true. They cannot handle complexity and multi-dimensional thinking. It is a serious defect in modern white thinking, the effects of a cultural degradation that has been ongoing for over a century and that has ravaged the capacity of whites to think clearly.

    They take the rich body of facts regarding IQ, spanning centuries across diverse ethnic groups, with all its fascinating counterfactuals and anomalies and curious ways things don’t add up and contradict other things, and they try to impose this absurdly simplified schema on it that ignores half the evidence to produce a picture that would not have satisfied a child in the Victorian age, when people were still able to think.

    Anyways, the best thing YOU can do for your fellow blacks is make them as aware as possible of their participation in the great project of human civilization – provide them with healthy models to emulate and take pride in.

    Of course, whites should be helping you – but were clinging to the last shreds of our own rapidly fading civilization, so all we can do is take pleasure in putting you down.

  151. AaronB says:
    @songbird

    Ah, parsimony – you mean of course taking a complex and rich body of facts and ignoring half of them and simplifying the rest to produce distorted picture that bears no relation to reality.

    Hereditarians are dogmatic asserters – the opposite of parsimony, which is the humility to say what you know and no more.

    Why are Jews dominating whites despite being outnumbered 8-1 in terms of intelligent people? Why did a handful of British dominate India and China despite having far fewer intelligent people?

    Do I really have to rehash all the IQ debates we’ve been having on this site? Go read them – then tell me parsimony is on your side.

    Parsimony means seeing all the facts on IQ – which show it is thickly embedded in – and cannot be disentangle from – a complex matrix of psychological and environmental factors. Motivation plays a huge role, as does culture, ambition, urbanization, exposure to technology, etc.

    But I cannot repeat these things – go read all the fascinating discussions we’ve been having here. Unz is larger than just this blog, you know.

  152. songbird says:
    @Okechukwu

    Given what they’ve been through black Americans are arguably the most successful people on the planet.

    If they have been through so much, why are they the richest, most successful blacks? Why aren’t the richest blacks in Haiti, Liberia, or Ethiopia? Why do Africans have a boundless, unrestrained desire to live among racist whites who keep them down? Why are blacks not leaving, but coming? Seems to me blacks in Nigeria had it worse, like when they were starving to death in Biafra, and that is why your parents left there. Why do you think you should benefit from affirmative action, when your folks were the sellers? And would you also like a check? How much, for being a descendant of sellers?

    At various points in history, Europe was dead last.

    Did you also know that there were fully mechanical clocks in Europe before many Bantu even began using the wheel? (and it had been introduced to them by the Chinese and Arabs – they just could not master the knack of it) How do you explain that? It was, after all, before colonialism.

    Why focus on Haiti? Aren’t there other black majority countries in the Caribbean?

    Haiti has been ruled the longest in the West. It is a real country with reasonable dimensions. The only other black country of reasonable size in the Western Hemisphere is Jamaica. Jamaica is less than half the size, and contains less than a third of the population. Still, I will allow that it has lead a few years in world murder stats – although with the obvious caveat that one should not trust the official Haiti stats. Another good aspect is that it can readily compared to the Dominican Republic, which also has some Afro-blood but in a much smaller amount.

    You don’t think the biggest, most populous, longest-ruled black country in the West is a reasonable archetype? You’d rather pick the Bahamas or Bermuda? Those aren’t rational approximations of Africa. It is easy to maintain order in tiny countries that have small populations and nearly no interior. They also benefit enormously from proximity to the US, both from tourism and offshore banking.

    • Replies: @Okechukwu
  153. @Okechukwu

    Given what they’ve been through black Americans are arguably the most successful people on the planet.

    You make it sounds like blacks were hindered by slavery and Jim Crowe in America. In fact the exact opposite is true. Consider the many wonderful things it did for them:

    • Worthless African languages replaced with English, the lingua franca
    • Work habits, discipline, and vocational skills taught
    • The “gang system” taught blacks to work together effectively in teams
    • The demands of plantation agriculture meant that men worked, unlike the situation in West Africa
    • Chaotic, dubious “family” structures replaced with the nuclear family
    • Witchcraft or whatever dropped for Christianity

    After slavery but still under white supremacy, blacks had many of the advantages they experienced under slavery (though, sadly, they lost the benefit of physical discipline and the gang system) and gained new ones:

    • Blacks gained literacy–probably the first widely literate black population in the world
    • Thanks to segregation, talented blacks remained within the black community and developed successful businesses, colleges, and other important institutions

    Since gaining freedom blacks have deteriorated rapidly, aside from a small fraction who benefit from the feudal dues that have been awarded to blacks since the late 1960s. And increasingly these feudal dues are claimed by immigrant blacks, including many from Africa who were never enslaved (indeed, their ancestors sold our blacks into slavery in the first place).

    So instead the blacks should be thanking Americans. With the possible exception of the British West Indies, no black nation in the world has so much to thank white people for. The only thing the blacks ought to be upset about is having been set free.

    So, yes, blacks can thrive–but only in the absence of freedom.

    • Troll: Okechukwu
    • Replies: @AaronB
    , @Bliss
  154. songbird says:
    @Okechukwu

    Growth is opportunity, and Nigeria is growing. Why do you run from it? Don’t you want to be a part of showing the world what Nigeria can really do? Don’t you want to tell your kids, you helped build Nigeria into a superpower? Why would you not want your grandkids to live in the future Nigeria of 2100 which will be truly a vibrant place with nearly a billion of your fellow countrymen? With so many people whose heritage is the great pyramids, it will surely be a techno-paradise.

  155. AaronB says:
    @Thorfinnsson

    So, yes, blacks can thrive–but only in the absence of freedom

    Perhaps true for everyone. Including whites.

    Return to feudalism!

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
  156. @AaronB

    Sure, and in fact some of the Fire Eaters came to the same conclusion by the 1850s.

    19 out of every 20 people have the inalienable right to become slaves.

    -George Fitzhugh

    None the less freedom has been more catastrophic to blacks than to whites. A simple look at family structure is a good example. Massive deterioration for black and white alike, but faster and deeper deterioration for black.

    • Replies: @AaronB
  157. AaronB says:
    @Thorfinnsson

    I cannot disagree with that. Blacks did deteriorate worse than whites in America – but everyone’s been hit hard.

    Most people are economic slaves today anyways. Under feudalism, at least there would be noblesse oblige, real relationship of loyalty and affection between Lord and vassal, structure, hierarchy, a sense of sacred bonds uniting society.

    Feudalism 2.0.

  158. Okechukwu says:
    @songbird

    If they have been through so much, why are they the richest, most successful blacks?

    If economic success is tied to race to the exclusion of everything else, and if whites have a genetic advantage in economic performance, why is the GDP output of 37 million black Americas larger than the GDP output of 144 million Russians?

    Why do Africans have a boundless, unrestrained desire to live among racist whites who keep them down?

    Nobody wants to live among racist whites. But it’s rather disingenuous of you to suggest that you fringe posters on Unz represent whites broadly. You don’t. The America I’ve experienced isn’t the same America before my time. Things can always get better, but they were much worse before.

    As I explained earlier, people move around the globe for economic reasons. It’s why most of you on this thread are not writing from your European homelands. If all it takes is white skin, why did your forebearers not make it work in your ancestral homelands? Why was Ireland, for example, virtually depopulated over a potato fungus?

    Did you also know that there were fully mechanical clocks in Europe before many Bantu even began using the wheel?

    Did you know that the Bantu were performing brain surgeries, cesarean sections and other complex medical procedures at a time when European “medicine” consistent almost exclusively of blood letting, trinkets and superstitious hocus pocus?

    Who invented the wheel? It certainly wasn’t your ancestors. They were only able to adapt it once they were exposed to it. They didn’t exactly figure it out on their own. If they were never introduced to the wheel it’s unlikely they would have it even today.

    Haiti has been ruled the longest in the West. It is a real country with reasonable dimensions.

    Haiti has a complex and complicated history. I know you eschew complexity and context in your mad rush to deem black people stupid. But fortunately, the real world doesn’t work that way, and thankfully, neither does scientific inquiry. What you do need to know about Haiti is that as newly liberated slaves they out-thought, out-fought, out-strategized and defeated the three most powerful European empires of the time. Another thing you need to know about Haiti is that they’re responsible for the United States as it’s presently constituted. Because after being thoroughly defeated and humiliated in Haiti, Napoleon bailed out of this hemisphere and virtually gave away the Louisiana territory to the United States. That territory comprises about 1/3 of the United States.

  159. @Okechukwu

    Did you know that the Bantu were performing brain surgeries, cesarean sections and other complex medical procedures at a time when European “medicine” consistent almost exclusively of blood letting, trinkets and superstitious hocus pocus?

    Source for that?

    • Replies: @Okechukwu
  160. Okechukwu says:
    @German_reader

    This was observed by a white doctor in 1879 but we can assume that the Africans had hundreds if not thousands of years experience in this practice:

    Robert Felkin MD (1853–1926) and Caesarean delivery in Central Africa (1879)

    http://fn.bmj.com/content/80/3/F250

    Same is true here. Cameras captured this, but we can assume the practice has a much longer history:

    https://www.medicalvideos.com/video/11344/traditional-african-brain-surgery

    For further reading:

    Many treatments we use today were employed by several ancient peoples throughout Africa. Before the European invasion of Africa, medicine in what is now Egypt, Nigeria and South Africa, to name just a few places, was more advanced than medicine in Europe. Some of these practices were the use of plants with salicylic acid for pain (as in aspirin), kaolin for diarrhea (as in Kaopectate), and extracts that were confirmed in the 20th century to kill Gram positive bacteria (2). Other plants used had anticancer properties, caused abortion and treated malaria — and these have been shown to be as effective as many modern-day Western treatments. Furthermore, Africans discovered ouabain, capsicum, physostigmine and reserpine. Medical procedures performed in ancient Africa before they were performed in Europe include vaccination, autopsy, limb traction and broken bone setting, bullet removal, brain surgery, skin grafting, filling of dental cavities, installation of false teeth, what is now known as Caesarean section, anesthesia and tissue cauterization (3). In addition, African cultures preformed surgeries under antiseptic conditions universally when this concept was only emerging in Europe

    http://www.asbmb.org/asbmbtoday/asbmbtoday_article.aspx?id=32437

  161. songbird says:
    @Okechukwu

    why is the GDP output of 37 million black Americas larger than the GDP output of 144 million Russians?

    I believe your starting point is a little off. Russia’s nominal GDP is about $ 1.3 trillion. Is the GDP of black Americans greater? I don’t believe so, but shall I grant it? In that case, it is mostly not output but transfer of wealth. A true comparison would not be comparing a minority of blacks in a white country (shall we compare Russian Americans to black ones?), but rather comparing Russia to a fully black country like Nigeria which actually as over 40 million more inhabitants. Shall we compare their space programs?

    If all it takes is white skin, why did your forebearers not make it work in your ancestral homelands? Why was Ireland, for example, virtually depopulated over a potato fungus?

    As globalist Thomas Friedman likes to say now – the world is (now) flat. Resources like hard coal, which Ireland did not have, can be transported cheaply anywhere. The famine in Ireland was artificial, anyway – caused by the corn laws which had banned importation of food. Famines ended in Ireland when trains were built. Ireland is now one of the richest countries in the world. It is an interesting question what the Nigerians are doing there now though, since it is a country with out great natural resources.

    Who invented the wheel? It certainly wasn’t your ancestors. They were only able to adapt it once they were exposed to it.

    You don’t think the horse lords had the wheel? You think they got it off someone else who didn’t have draft animals? Or Africans who had zebra, but never domesticated them?

    What you do need to know about Haiti is that as newly liberated slaves they out-thought, out-fought, out-strategized and defeated the three most powerful European empires of the time.

    Yellow fever. Same reason the US left Cuba in a hurry. Resistance to tropical diseases are Africans’ one superpower, and yellow fever comes from Africa, so they had time to evolve some defences.

    That territory comprises about 1/3 of the United States.

    And other thinly populated frontiers like Alaska, California, the SW, and Texas were all acquired for the US through the brave feats of Haitians fighting off European powers. Not natural westward expansion, as for instance, happened in the opposite direction in Russia.

    • Replies: @Okechukwu
  162. @Okechukwu

    … why is the GDP output of 37 million black Americas larger than the GDP output of 144 million Russians?

    1. Because American Negroes live in, benefit from, and accrue massive subsidies from a White society that has enjoyed centuries of unhindered capitalist development.

    Your natural state of development is found in Liberia, a country founded by American Negroes who must at least be commended for going back.

    2. Not true in purchasing-power adjusted terms, anyway.

    • Replies: @Okechukwu
  163. @Okechukwu

    I actually went to the trouble to read that ASBMB article. Kind of sad that such obvious rot (Africans invented steam engines? Egyptians wrote textbooks about math 35 000 years ago? West Africans sailed to China in the 13th century and brought back elephants?) is published on the site of what is (or was?) apparently a serious academic society.
    Frankly, white Americans are far too nice to your kind.

    • Replies: @Anon
  164. Bliss says:
    @Okechukwu

    Another thing you need to know about Haiti is that they’re responsible for the United States as it’s presently constituted. Because after being thoroughly defeated and humiliated in Haiti, Napoleon bailed out of this hemisphere and virtually gave away the Louisiana territory to the United States. That territory comprises about 1/3 of the United States.

    Very true. And the victorious Haitian’s inspired, encouraged and armed Simón Bolivar’s revolt against the Spanish Empire and also inspired the Greek revolt against the Ottoman Empire:

    https://www.telesurtv.net/english/analysis/Haiti-The-Price-of-Liberation-20141231-0006.html

    “Should I not let it be known to later generations that Alexander Petion is the true liberator of my country?” said Simon Bolivar, the Venezuelan leader who liberated South America from Spanish rule, to Alexandre Petion, the first president of Haiti.

    According to “El Libertador: Writings of Simon Bolivar,” a collection of public and private letters of Bolivar, Haiti not only provided material resources but was also the model for the liberated South American nations. Bolivar structured Bolivia’s first government from the example of Haiti and the Venezuelan constitution was based on the constitution Petion drew up for Haiti. And, of course, he declared slavery illegal in the nascent countries.

    http://www.hougansydney.com/haiti/how-haiti-helped-greece-in-its-fight-for-ndependence

    Many know that Haiti’s help was crucial in the liberation of many Latin American countries, the most remembered being the liberation of Venezuela, however most are unaware that the first Black Republic also helped many other countries well beyond its shores in the Americas. This Article will analyze the role of Haiti in the establishment of Greece, as an independent country.

    Between 1821 and 1832, the Greek revolutionaries waged wars against the Ottoman Empire, which had been ruling most of Greece since 1453. Out of money, supplies and help from their European neighbors, the Greek revolutionaries decided to seek help from a small nation. A nation very far away from theirs, which was not only famous for its own successful revolution; for having defeated the powerful armies of Spain, Britain and France to gain freedom, but also because of Its open-arms policy to all territories fighting for self-determination: Haiti.

    They sent a letter to then Haiti’s president Jean Pierre Boyer, asking him for military and monetary help for their fight against Ottoman rules. Haiti was in financial ruins however. The country had lost nearly all of its sources of revenues in the wars for independence against the French empire. Plus the recent integration of former Spanish colony (modern day Dominican Republic) into Haiti was also having some financial restraint on the Haitian government.

    In a lengthy letter, on January 15th 1822, President Boyer explained to Adamantios Korais, then Governor of Greece, that due to Haiti’s financial situation he would not be able to send money nor men to Greece, but promised to do all that he could to help in their cause for freedom. President Boyer did find a way to help the Greeks; with the letter, he sent a cargaison of 25 tons of coffee, one of the most important commodities of the time, to Adamantios Korais, to be sold on behalf of the greek revolutionaries for the procurement of supplies; thus making Haiti the first country in the world to recognized Greece as an independent country, and the first one outside Europe to help the country of Socrates achieve self-determination. Two months later, Great Britain followed Haiti and recognized Greece as an independent country.

  165. AaronB says:
    @Okechukwu

    They brought out all the heavy guns against you :)

    A backhanded compliment.

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
  166. Okechukwu says:
    @songbird

    A true comparison would not be comparing a minority of blacks in a white country (shall we compare Russian Americans to black ones?), but rather comparing Russia to a fully black country like Nigeria which actually as over 40 million more inhabitants.

    No can do. If you can float data shorn of any context whatsoever, please allow others to do the same. Otherwise you’re the worst kind of hypocrite.

    As globalist Thomas Friedman likes to say now – the world is (now) flat. Resources like hard coal, which Ireland did not have, can be transported cheaply anywhere. The famine in Ireland was artificial, anyway – caused by the corn laws which had banned importation of food

    Cute excuses and rationalizations. I got millions of excuses and rationalizations for Africa.

    You don’t think the horse lords had the wheel? You think they got it off someone else who didn’t have draft animals?

    I suggest you look up the history of the wheel rather than speculating. But I’ll tell you now, if your ancestors had seen an Egyptian or Nubian chariot they might have presumed it was sorcery.

    Or Africans who had zebra, but never domesticated them?

    The zebra is undomesticable. It’s too ornary and unpredictable.

    Yellow fever. Same reason the US left Cuba in a hurry.

    Yellow fever my ass. Whites had lived in Haiti for generations. They were roundly defeated in the field. Whites always make excuses for their military defeats. At Isandlwana, they claimed the guy that hands out ammunition was on a lunch break or something, even though they had every technological advantage including artillery, rockets, repeating rifles and gatling guns.

    And other thinly populated frontiers like Alaska, California, the SW, and Texas were all acquired for the US through the brave feats of Haitians fighting off European powers.

    France was the strongest military power in the world. The US didn’t want to mess with them. They could not seize the territory by force.

    • Replies: @songbird
  167. Okechukwu says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    1. Because American Negroes live in, benefit from, and accrue massive subsidies from a White society that has enjoyed centuries of unhindered capitalist development.

    The economy was built on the backs of black Americans. Blacks were significantly responsible for the prosperity that caused Europeans to flee their various dysfunctional basketcases for America. There are cogent arguments by noted economists that detail the overwhelmingly positive impact of free black labor on the American economy.

    Your natural state of development is found in Liberia, a country founded by American Negroes who must at least be commended for going back.

    Why don’t you go back to Russia or wherever it is you’re from? Black people have been here for over 400 years, fought in every war and helped build the institutions and systems you are taking advantage of. What are you, an immigrant? Second generation?

    Not true in purchasing-power adjusted terms, anyway.

    PPP is a junk metric.

  168. @Okechukwu

    we wuz neurosurgeonz ‘n sheet

  169. Bliss says:
    @Thorfinnsson

    Haiti defeats Napoleon —> Napoleon loses hope in his ambitious plans for the Americas—> Napoleon has to sell off Louisiana for pennies a dollar to the small new nation located next to it (USA) —> half a century later USA offers up these vast undeveloped lands for practically free to Americans and immigrants from northwestern Europe—-> Thorfinnsson’s ancestors take advantage of the offer?

    Seems obvious to me that America and millions of Germans and Scandinavians who immigrated to the Midwest in the 19th century benefited enormously from the Haitian Revolution.

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
  170. @Okechukwu

    Oh yeah, blacks totally invented the cotton gin, the mule, the jenny, and the arkwright. And in the absence of negroes, no other source of labor could possibly have been found.

    And needless to say the blacks were responsible for the tremendous improvements in cotton genetics in the 19th century.

    We wuz planterz ‘n sheet.

    You’re just a nigger. Get over yourself.

  171. @Bliss

    Not my ancestors, they were in Sweden until 1974 (and were forced to suffer in Canada until 1983).

    And I’m happy to give Haitians credit where credit is due. What they accomplished was impressive and they are to be commended for it. Unfortunately that is where Haitian accomplishments end.

    That said, I suspect America would’ve acquired the Louisiana purchase without that. For examples look how America acquired Florida and the Mexican Cession.

  172. Bliss says:
    @German_reader

    Only Europeans who claim the ancient Egyptians as their own are fringe white nationalist people

    They certainly aren’t the fringe in this forum.

    Source for that, or is it just a myth about the innate evil of Anglo-Saxons/Nordics?

    No one is calling the Germans and Scandinavians who immigrated to the Midwest for the free land on offer, evil. They were looking for a better life for their families. Just as the current immigrants to Germany and Scandinavia are.

    • Replies: @German_reader
  173. @Okechukwu

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/health/news/9771022/Revealed-3-in-4-of-Britains-danger-doctors-are-trained-abroad.html

    Mexico, Cuba, France, Uganda, Cameroon, Nigeria docs seem particularly bad.

    The country with the best record is Hong Kong. Despite having an average of 773 doctors working in the UK since 2008, none have been struck off or disciplined by the GMC.

    This, er, German fellow does badly: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2541612/German-doctor-killed-British-patient-drug-overdose-sues-dead-mans-sons-miss-dinner.html

  174. @Okechukwu

    One of the weird things about Blacks in the West (who are 95% West African) is their desire to pretend to be other people. Egyptian Kangz, East Africans (the Rastas), Ancient Hebrews, Black Muslims. Even Oprah Winfrey says she is Zulu.

    There’s enough to be proud of if you’re a Westerner of West African origin you would think. Metallurgy, Music, Kingdoms etc. Except of course their cousins in Mother Africa sold them, which perhaps makes them less amenable to be associated with West Africa. It’s hard for a Black American to be impressed with Asante gold when they know where it comes from.

    • Replies: @AaronB
  175. @Bliss

    They certainly aren’t the fringe in this forum.

    Umm, obviously there are a lot of strange people on Unz review, but who exactly claimed the ancient Egyptians were Nordics/white Europeans? The only person I see peddling absurd pseudo-history here is this Okechuckwu fellow.

    They were looking for a better life for their families. Just as the current immigrants to Germany and Scandinavia are.

    Sorry, doesn’t touch me at all, the situation isn’t comparable. The hordes currently streaming into my country are invaders who are abusing an asylum and welfare system that was never intended for them. And we have to pay for our own dispossession and cheer about it. No thanks.

  176. @Okechukwu

    Blacks were significantly responsible for the prosperity…

    Canada and Australia had negligible numbers of Negroes, were both very prosperous and immigration magnet during the 19th century.

    Why don’t you go back to Russia or wherever it is you’re from?

    I did.

    When are you repatriating to Nigeria?

    PPP is a junk metric.

    PPP is a more legitimate proxy for living standards (in its per capita version), and for national power (which is of geopolitical relevance).

    Nominal is more useful for proxying international financial power, and for performing debt burden calculations, where said debts are denominated in foreign currencies (Russia has negligible national debt).

    • Agree: Daniel Chieh
    • Replies: @Okechukwu
  177. AaronB says:
    @TelfoedJohn

    Its almost northern Europeans like to claim a connection to the ancient Greeks and Romans…so weird. You’d think they have enough to be to be proud of.

    Rhetoric is fun!

  178. @AaronB

    Why are you such a traitor?

    You have advocated for older whites to die off (including presumably some of your relatives) and keep switching from advocating for Buddhism to Islam to Shintoism and now this Afrotriumphalism?

    What purpose do you serve?

    If your bizarre kind of spiritualism leads to such excessive and useless xenotriumphalism then you are more useless than the old and tired materialist whites you decry.

    Do you have any actual solutions?

    It seems like all you do is either advocate for vague spiritualistic fluff, praise other peoples (including our enemies), argue with those who actually have some idea of the problems we face or, in the few cases where you say something concrete, it is proposals for the betterment of other peoples.

    If you believe you have real solutions then you are welcome to provide them but so far you mainly seem to work as a psychological demoraliser.

    • Agree: German_reader
    • Replies: @AaronB
  179. Bliss says:
    @Okechukwu

    Another thing you need to know about Haiti is that they’re responsible for the United States as it’s presently constituted. Because after being thoroughly defeated and humiliated in Haiti, Napoleon bailed out of this hemisphere and virtually gave away the Louisiana territory to the United States. That territory comprises about 1/3 of the United States.

    Exactly right. What would the American Continent be like today if the Haitians had not defeated the French? If Napoleon had not been demoralized by his defeat would we be speaking French today?

    Here’s another debt America owes to Haiti, which has been whitewashed out of history: Black and Mulatto Haitian volunteers fought alongside Americans in the Revolutionary War.

    https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2010/1/16/825715/-

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
    , @Thorfinnsson
  180. songbird says:
    @Okechukwu

    Why is Nigeria so poor? I don’t understand it. The British never entered far into the interior until at least 1900. They controlled the whole country for less than 60 yrs. You know how long they were in Ireland? More than 800 yrs. Nigeria has loads of oil. Ireland had none, unless you count peat. Good for heating, but not industry.

    From Wikipedia:

    The earliest well-dated depiction of a wheeled vehicle (here a wagon — four wheels, two axles) is on the Bronocice pot, a c. 3500 – 3350 BCE clay pot excavated in a Funnelbeaker culture settlement in southern Poland.[6]

    The oldest securely dated real wheel-axle combination, that from Stare Gmajne near Ljubljana in Slovenia (Ljubljana Marshes Wooden Wheel) is now dated within two standard deviations to 3340–3030 BCE, the axle to 3360–3045 BCE.[7]

    If you think that the archaeological record is incomplete, and it came from somewhere else that is arguable, but don’t pretend Europeans didn’t have the wheel in 1600 AD, like some Bantu. They had it nearly 5,000 yrs. before the Bantu in South Africa. Though I grant the Nigerian Bantu probably had it before the South African Bantu. Most probable location for the domestication of the horse is the Pontic Caspian Steppe, where the Yamnaya, who were the ancestors of all Europeans, lived, just as Nigeria is the Bantu homeland.

    The zebra is undomesticable. It’s too ornary and unpredictable.

    Zebras are fully tamable. Lord Lionel Walter Rothschild proved it by driving around London in a carriage pulled by zebras. Since they are tamable, it follows that they are domesticable. The reason why they never were domesticated is two fold: Africans did not have the inclination, for it is a slow process taking generations, and Europeans had already domesticated the horse and therefore had no need of zebras.

  181. anonymous[207] • Disclaimer says:
    @Okechukwu

    The best rapper in the world is a white man. You can’t even win at the fields you create.

  182. dfordoom says: • Website
    @reiner Tor

    I think the Nazi architecture (really, Hitler’s architecture – architecture being his hobby, he personally overlooked the planning of all major buildings) was impressive.

    You can accuse the Nazis of many things but they had a fine aesthetic sense. Especially when compared to the unremitting ugliness and horror of the aesthetics that liberalism has led to.

  183. @Bliss

    Not being willing to pay for their fair share of the national defense is an awful reason for launching a separatist war.

    The idea that American war of independence was a glorious event should fade away.

    I think the only way it could possibly be justified was that it released the western frontier from the London-imposed limits to settlement.

    • Replies: @Bliss
  184. @Bliss

    Americans would’ve overrun the Louisiana territory and conquered it…or it would be full of Frenchmen.

    Fuck off nigger. You belong to a worthless, inferior race that is a severe drag on humanity. Submit!

    • Replies: @Bliss
  185. Bliss says:
    @Thorfinnsson

    You are yet another proof that money can’t buy class. But you sure love to pretend like you are some kind of pompous aristocrat. Lol.

    You are just trash that got lucky with that 160 acres of prime midwestern farm land your serf ancestors got for free. Admit it.

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
  186. @Bliss

    Wrong nigger.

    We’re aristocrats in the old country and the new country.

    No serfdom in our family ever.

    Meanwhile you’re just a fucking nigger.

    Hope you have a warm place to shit in.

    SUBMIT!

    • Replies: @Bliss
  187. AaronB says:
    @Hyperborean

    You do not understand me – and that is understandable because modern Westerners have lost the capacity to think multi-dimensionally.

    I have explained my reasoning multiple times – try clicking on my handle.

    You seek to perpetuate black dysfunction. I do not think this serves the interests of whites. In America today, blacks are taught that the values of civilization are “white”. If blacks can learn to think of themselves as the inheritors of great civilizations, they will strive to live up to these standards.

    Secondly, it is humiliating for white people today to “compete” with blacks. You do not compete with people who are so far beneath you (today). It is frankly embarrassing watching everyone here argue with blacks over who is more civilized. It merely shows how far white self-respect has fallen. A smile and a shrug would show more self-respect. The correct white attitude towards blacks should be paternalism. You have lost the capacity to adopt the “superior” pose.

    Thirdly, Jews have formed a strategic alliance with blacks against whites. It is stupid not to seek to turn the tables on Jews. Jews have self-respect – the idea of vying with blacks for civilizational honor would strike them as absurd. Therefore they have no problem stroking black egos as they weaponize them against you. Doing this back to Jews is apparently beyond the strategic comprehension of today’s whites.

    Fourthly, while the foregoing is regrettably Machiavellian – in the true sense, as utilizing bad means for moral ends, with regret. Not gleefully, with relish, as the “redpilled” like to imagine themselves doing – I believe the path back to white self-respect lies through regaining the “true” moral high ground (true, as in – not pathological altruism). I believe “the” major source of self-respect is believing oneself to be firmly grounded in moral values. As being “good”. Even the Nazis believed they were in the service of “good”. No major political movement can succeed in attracting the passion and loyalty of large numbers of people unless it can offer a vision of moral good.

    Genetic interests are insufficient except for a small fringe. HBD is insufficient. These are merely material factors. People do not live on bread alone. And they will happily sacrifice their lives for a moral vision.

    The history of the Jews should have taught us the importance of moral factors – a small people dominating a much larger one that has lost its moral vision, even though the larger group possesses vastly more intelligent and capable people.

    We are making the same mistakes that has landed us in this hot mess. True morality means respect for others and oneself. Respecting others, you are firmly grounded in a sense of right, and you are armored against guilt. Knowing yourself to be “good”, you fearlessly stand up for yourself and fight for your interests. You know you are aligned with “right”.

    Finally, I do not believe humiliating other groups is necessary for us to abandon our pathological altruism and regain our self-respect. That is the losers way.

    And finally finally, the crown jewel of my argument – I do not believe in hatred but in love. I love whites and want to see them flourish and thrive. But not at the expense of blacks.

    I could expand on all this at length, but this is enough for now.

    I am frankly embarrassed at having to say out loud do much that should be implicitly understood – but the times are bad, and whites have grown stupid.

    • Replies: @songbird
    , @Hyperborean
  188. Bliss says:
    @Hyperborean

    The idea that American war of independence was a glorious event should fade away.

    You got a problem with the Enlightenment? You would rather live under a hereditary monarchy and aristocracy?

    I don’t see how one can argue against rationalism, secularism and meritocratic egalitarianism.

    • Replies: @AaronB
    , @Hyperborean
    , @dfordoom
  189. Bliss says:
    @Thorfinnsson

    We’re aristocrats in the old country and the new country.

    Class = Character

    It is pretty obvious you are as low class as they come.

  190. AaronB says:
    @Bliss

    I don’t see how one can argue against rationalism, secularism and meritocratic egalitarianism.

    Really? Its quite easy. It’s basically what I do all the time.

    • Replies: @German_reader
    , @Bliss
  191. @AaronB

    Not very convincingly though.

    • Replies: @AaronB
  192. Bliss says:
    @AaronB

    You do it all the time without explaining why. Just saying that rationalism, secularism etc have made whites stupid and weak is not an explanation. It is not even a correct observation. You seem to be out of touch with reality.

    • Replies: @AaronB
  193. AaronB says:
    @German_reader

    To you :) I’m quite convinced by it.

    • Replies: @German_reader
  194. @AaronB

    How many of your interlocutors on Unz review have you managed to convince so far?

    • Replies: @AaronB
  195. AaronB says:
    @Bliss

    What do you mean – I explain it all the time at length and in depth. Its like no one clicks on my handle and reads my beautiful comments…

    TL:DR version –

    The things worth living for – beauty, nobility, and love – cannot be apprehended by logic. The more you train your mind to think exclusively logically, you less you can see these things.

    Being secular means believing only in matter – yet the things worth living for cannot be perceived by the senses which perceive matter.

    The more you believe only in matter – are secular – the less worthwhile life becomes.

    Its pretty straightforward – but its struggle to see what’s right in front of your nose, as some great man said somewhere.

    • Replies: @Bliss
  196. Anon[298] • Disclaimer says:
    @German_reader

    your kind.

    Most blacks are decent people. Heck, most Afrocentrists are decent people most of the time.

    • Replies: @songbird
    , @German_reader
  197. AaronB says:
    @German_reader

    Precisely zero. A tiny few already agreed with me, to some extent. You know who they are…few enough to count on the fingers of one hand.

    As for the invisible audience, who Ron says is the overwhelming majority of visitors to this site, who knows?

    But its why I’m retreating to my mountain hut and forming a monastery…the times are bad…

    When they are propitious again, we shall burst forth to set the world ablaze…

    • Replies: @Anon
  198. songbird says:
    @AaronB

    Honestly, I think Egyptians are not willing to share ancient Egypt with blacks. Black heritage in order to have a firm base can’t be about a turf war. It has to be either historical (true – and there are at least some things) and/or it has got to be mythological, as distinct from psuedo-historical. Or even a combination of myth and history, but not made-up history.

    History is what it is. We cannot change it, except by discovery. That is why I favor mythology. Wakanda has such a great appeal for blacks that it is hard not to notice. Some of the money misspent on trying to fix black social problems externally should be repurposed to make black entertainment with Wakanda stories – always with high moral values and always taking place in Africa and always starring Africans, so they can claim it as their own.

    If Wakanda is fiction, they should be inspired to move back to Africa and make a true Wakanda. Meanwhile, information about the outside world should be curtailed, so only their leaders can access it. They need to get out of others’ shadows and compete with each other, not with other groups. That is why they don’t like whites – they compete with whites. Jews being mostly in a higher economic bracket compete with blacks far less often. That is why they ally with each other.

    • Replies: @AaronB
  199. Anon[298] • Disclaimer says:
    @AaronB

    But its why I’m retreating to my mountain hut and forming a monastery…the times are bad…

    There’s nothing stopping you. Lots of people do this already, maybe they can help you set up.

  200. songbird says:
    @Anon

    The “conservative columnist” for the NYT David Brooks, who is something of an Afro-centrist (calls St. Augustine black, not sure if he believes in Yukab), is pretty evil, though he is not black, so perhaps he is not a true Afrocentrist.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  201. @songbird

    As early as 2003, Brooks wrote favorably of same-sex marriage, pointing out that marriage is a traditional conservative value. Rather than opposing it, he wrote: “We should insist on gay marriage. We should regard it as scandalous that two people could claim to love each other and not want to sanctify their love with marriage and fidelity…. It’s going to be up to conservatives to make the important, moral case for marriage, including gay marriage.”

    Really, with such conservatives, do we even need liberals?

    • Agree: songbird, dfordoom
  202. @AaronB

    You seek to perpetuate black dysfunction. I do not think this serves the interests of whites. In America today, blacks are taught that the values of civilization are “white”. If blacks can learn to think of themselves as the unverified of great civilizations, they will strive to live up to these standards.

    Somehow despite the fact that blacks in America for several decades have been told about the great and ever-so-important achievements of blacks (Inventors! Explorers! Soldiers!) both in America and in other countries few American blacks seem to aspire to something greater or improving the situation of their race.

    The problem with blacks isn’t their dysfunction in itself it is that their dysfunction affects and even to an extent spreads to other people.

    Secondly, it is humiliating for white people today to “compete” with blacks. You do not compete with people who are so far beneath you (today). It is frankly embarrassing watching everyone here argue with blacks over who is more civilized. It merely shows how far white self-respect has fallen. A smile and a shrug would show more self-respect. The correct white attitude towards blacks should be paternalism.

    Perhaps people wouldn’t have to argue with them so much if people like you didn’t furnish the flames of their fantasies. If American whites were simply dealing with 40 million hikikomori poasting about muh flying pyramids then it wouldn’t be such a problem but since these fantasy dreams cause them to lash out at whites when they see the disparity between their fantasies and real life it is dangerous to encourage this afrotriumphalism.

    No, the correct solution is either establishing a regime of iron-hard discipline, creating an independent state and conducting population transfers, encouraging self-repatriation to Africa or sterilising them.

    Thirdly, Jews have formed a strategic alliance with blacks against whites. It is stupid not to seek to turn the tables on Jews. Jews have self-respect – the idea of vying with blacks for civilizational honor would strike them as absurd. Therefore they have no problem stroking black egos as they weaponize them against you. Doing this back to Jews is apparently beyond the strategic comprehension of today’s whites.

    And how exactly are we supposed to do this? Blacks (muslims excepted) just see Jews as either whites or as a sub-set of whites and from their perspective that is rather reasonable. Any attack on whites will hit us as well. Letting the rapid dog grow big and expand its territory to get rid of the parasite just replaces one problem with another problem.

    Fourthly, while the foregoing is regrettably Machiavellian – in the true sense, as utilizing bad means for moral ends, with regret. Not gleefully, with relish, as the “redpilled” like to imagine themselves doing – I believe the path back to white self-respect lies through regaining the “true” moral high ground (true, as in – not pathological altruism). I believe “the” major source of self-respect is believing oneself to be firmly grounded in moral values. As being “good”. Even the Nazis believed they were in the service of “good”. No major political movement can succeed in attracting the passion and loyalty of large numbers of people unless it can offer a vision of moral good.

    Nice words, but they are not really substantial. Do you not think nationalists in say, France or Italy, believe they are doing something good for their people and that they are in the right?

    Genetic interests are insufficient except for a small fringe. HBD is insufficient. These are merely material factors. People do not live on bread alone. And they will happily sacrifice their lives for a moral vision.

    We have a moral vision – nationalism – in fact we have had it for a long time.

    The history of the Jews should have taught us the importance of moral factors – a small people dominating a much larger one that has lost its moral vision, even though the larger group possesses vastly more intelligent and capable people.

    Considering that Jewish influence echoes far throughout time, even during periods when Europeans had a moral vision as you call it, clearly the issue goes much deeper than that.

    We are making the same mistakes that has landed us in this hot mess. True morality means respect for others and oneself. Respecting others, you are firmly grounded in a sense of right, and you are armored against guilt.

    Respecting others doesn’t help armour us against guilt, only respect for ourselves does that. Especially in an age when “respecting others” means letting others walk all over you.

    • Replies: @AaronB
  203. @Bliss

    The reason why the American war of independence was not glorious was that Britain had long since had a liberal regime and was liberalising ever further and the Americans in the end just created a mini-Britain.

    As for the type of regime I’d prefer, I think I would like a technocratic dictatorship led by a collective party/institutional leadership utilising dead emperor worship.

  204. Bliss says:
    @AaronB

    Being secular means believing only in matter – yet the things worth living for cannot be perceived by the senses which perceive matter.

    You have bought into the wrong meaning of the word secularism. Secularism is not atheism. It is the political doctrine of Separation of Church and State. It is the antithesis of Theocracy.

    Do you still have a problem with the correct meaning of secularism?

    • Replies: @AaronB
  205. AaronB says:
    @Hyperborean

    You can’t just praise blacks like the left does – that’s just as bad as mocking them. You firmly point out current black dysfunction in a thoroughly honest fashion – letting them get away with nothing – while exhorting them to do better and instill good values in them. Its paternalism, not excuse making. You try to instill self-respect in them – and encourage them to strive to live up to their glorious ancestors the Egyptians.

    Its a two- handed approach – condemnation and praise. Right now these two functions are divided between left and right – neither works alone. The last thing you want to do is encourage genetic fatalism!

    Nationalism as a moral vision is bare bones – its better than individuslism, but no great civilization succeeded merely on nationalism. All saw themselves as bearing the fate of humanity in their shoulders, as the tip of the spear of a universal human mission. Even the Romans had their Pax Romana. The Romans, even.

    Jews never achieved the level of dominance they have now until post-Enlightenment – as rationalism and materialism grew among Europeans, Jews gained an edge – as they never adopted these ways of thinking on a deep level, not even today.

    I do not believe most people can respect themselves knowing they treat others with injustice. A few can, but most cannot. Self respect paradoxically depends on treating others with justice. When whites created capitalism, colonialism, materialism they abandoned the moral dimension began to feel vague feelings of uneasy guilt. Jews them exploited this.

    Time to repair this.

  206. AaronB says:
    @songbird

    Wakanda, Egypt, it’s all good. Objective history is a myth.

    High level spots that blacks covet are monopolized by Jews – and the general economic situation such hurts low wage workers is Jewish promoted. It would be quite easy to ally with blacks against Jews if you had imagination.

    Blacks compete with Jews as well as whites, and are hurt by Jewish promoted policies.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  207. AaronB says:
    @Bliss

    Okay, fair enough, but separating religion from the state is an illusion – when religion stopped mattering, the state stopped regulating it. The “new religion” – the attitudes and values a particular system needs to function – is always promoted by the state. We see this now most clearly.

    In reality, the state always has to encourage the values that keep its particular political system functioning, and oppress other values – religion can never be separated from the state, and never truly was.

    In emerging capitalism, as long as you were a good consumer and worker what god you believed in didn’t matter. This created the illusion of secularism.

    In reality, the values that are essential to a system always are guarded.

  208. @AaronB

    Have you been to Africa? I have. If you manage it without becoming more much cynical about humanity, then you are indeed a better soul than I am.

    • Replies: @AaronB
  209. Bliss says:

    separating religion from the state is an illusion – when religion stopped mattering, the state stopped regulating it. The “new religion” – the attitudes and values a particular system needs to function – is always promoted by the state.

    When did religion stop mattering? Religious groupings have political power, look at the Evangelicals.

    • Replies: @AaronB
  210. AaronB says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    Only Ethiopia and Egypt. But also to southern Ethiopia on the border with Kenya, where there are pure blacks. They seemed all right.

    Is it really that much worse than an American inner city ghetto? That’s pretty bad. But I don’t know.

    The worst human degradation I’ve seen was in slums in India, and I’ve read Africa has nothing that bad. But I don’t know.

    I try to see with the third eye of imagination – who knows what people can be like in good environments. Obviously genetics play a huge role, and I’m not saying anything retarded like there’s a million Shakespeare’s out there, but its tough to really come to conclusions without considering the crucial role of values environment.

    All I know is that a huge amount if dysfunction is caused by bad values and environment – look at how white working class got so much worse recently.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  211. @AaronB

    Cameroon convinced that by and large, they’re not interested in improving their values environment.

    • Replies: @AaronB
    , @Okechukwu
  212. AaronB says:
    @Bliss

    I favor a more authoritarian and non individualist culture. The state should promote good values and morality. I think tolerance is an illusion – if the good guys abdicate their role you just leave the bad guys free to seize power. We are part of a corporate body influenced in a thousand ways by others.

    Tolerance is an unstable equilibrium – the balance is always tipping. The true battle is between rival visions.

    I also think a human community should be organized around a common vision of the moral good and the purpose of life. Harmony is desirable and dissension should be avoided.

    None of this is compatible with secularism – which leads to the bad flourishing and eventually seizing power as well as lack of unity in a common moral vision, thus atomization and apathy. No good.

    Of course, it need not be too oppressive or tyrannical – we can tread lightly as long as common sense is observed, and in fact in unified communities of this sort wide lattitude is permitted to eccentrics and a surprising amount of personal freedom is allowed – because the fundamentals are secure, society stands on a firm footing.

    • Replies: @Bliss
  213. AaronB says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    Interesting.

    Its possible some communities cannot succeed in modernity. In which case why not let them be hunter gatherers. Maybe I’d join them :) Its one of my ideal lives.

    But I still think its hard to make really broad generalizations st this point.

  214. utu says:
    @Okechukwu

    I am sorry to say but you can’t be take seriously. It looks like you do not have higher aspirations than just being a troll who is not constrained by any rules of discourse and is free to use the most outlandish rhetorical devices and tricks and use evidence and falsity frivolously.

    Genetics studies of mummies form Egypt are what they are. They clearly indicate that there was no significant genetic component from Sub-Saharans Africans (SSA). Furthermore because modern population of Egypt has acquired SSA admixture in last 1000 years or so the research showed that:

    Strikingly, the mummies were more closely related to ancient Europeans and Anatolians than to modern Egyptians.

    which was further reinforced by this statement:

    we find that the ancient Egyptians are more closely related to all modern and ancient European populations that we tested

    In terms of ‘white’/’black’ skin color dichotomy, which seems to obsess you, ancient Egyptians were more white than modern Egyptians and thus closer to ‘pink’ than to ‘black’ on the ‘white’-’black’ spectrum. This being said white Europeans and Americans do not seek racial or cultural identity with ancient Egyptians. Europeans know their roots pretty well. The reason they may argue with trolls like you is not because they compete for the Egyptian heritage and want to appropriate it and steal it from you. They could adopt a paternalistic approach as AaronB advocates and let you have Egypt in hope that this myth will boost your future well being and performance, however AaronB comes from the tradition of Haggadah where the truth is not fixed and myth becomes utilitarian truth. Our European tradition comes form Greeks is different. The truth is an absolute abstract that is not there to be utilized and manipulated. So our opposition to the myth building by Afrocentric nationalist who try to utilize ancient Egypt history fraudulently stems from loyalty to our philosophical tradition on which our civilization was built. We can’t let you win in this debate which you are forcing on us because we may not let our children to be taught falsities in schools. This is against the fundamental principle of our tradition. W/o this principle science and civilization will collapse. So we will not treat you as children as AaronB would have it but as responsible members of a human race. But you by pushing this nonsensical debate are doing a great disservice to your race unless you really won’t AaronB’s of this world to be your daddies.

    • Troll: Okechukwu
    • Replies: @Bliss
  215. Okechukwu says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    Canada and Australia had negligible numbers of Negroes, were both very prosperous and immigration magnet during the 19th century.

    Not nearly as much of a magnet as America. Those countries were alternative destinations when the US began turning away “undesirable” whites, employing many of the same arguments those of your ilk use today with respect to people of color (low IQ, criminally inclined, incompatible with western values, etc.). You Russians were among the undesirables. But if we accept that European genetics have this magical quality that misguided race realists attribute to it, why do those Europeans have to go anywhere? Why were they escaping European shithole nations if indeed Europeans are genetically fine-tuned for nation building and excellent governance?

    I did.

    Then why do you care about what’s going on in the United States? America’s problems pale in comparison to Russia’s. Ought you not to be focusing on those problems, many of which are existential, rather than wasting your mighty talents writing racist screeds on the Internet? Writings, I might add, which are on the very cusp of violating Article 282 of the Russian statute outlawing hate speech.

    When are you repatriating to Nigeria?

    Well, I’m not actually a Nigerian. That’s just my heritage. I’m in my country.

    PPP is a more legitimate proxy for living standards (in its per capita version), and for national power (which is of geopolitical relevance).

    Nope. PPP is just a theory. It has little real world relevance. Besides, a dollar buys more in Los Angeles than it does in Moscow. And given that Russia is a net importer of most of their consumer goods, the collapse of the ruble makes the cost of living particularly painful. With Russia’s GDP per capita at just under $9,000, I’m stunned that the average Russian is able to make ends meet.

    National power is a by-product of economic power. Russia has very little national power. It’s nukes are interesting, but they’re worthless because they can never be used. For a country of that size, with a population of that size, Russia is very weak by western standards.

    Nominal is more useful for proxying international financial power, and for performing debt burden calculations, where said debts are denominated in foreign currencies (Russia has negligible national debt).

    Russia has little international financial power. Its entire economy exists at the whim and with the forbearance of the US Treasury Department, OFAC in particular. Do you know that Russian banks and companies have to observe US sanctions against Russian entities in Russia lest they be shut out of the international financial system? That’s the main reason the Duma floated a bill that would criminalize with a prison sentence, the observance of US sanctions within the territory of Russia. But if it ever becomes law they’d have to imprison most of their bankers and oligarchs.

    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
  216. Bliss says:
    @utu

    We can’t let you win in this debate which you are forcing on us because we may not let our children to be taught falsities in schools. This is against the fundamental principle of our tradition.

    Very funny. Didn’t you just try to peddle these falsities in the previous paragraph:

    ancient Egyptians were more white than modern Egyptians and thus closer to ‘pink’ than to ‘black’

    we find that the ancient Egyptians are more closely related to all modern and ancient European populations that we tested

    They clearly indicate that there was no significant genetic component from Sub-Saharans Africans (SSA).

    1. The numerous wall murals from Ancient Egypt make a liar out of you, so do the numerous descriptions of Egyptians by the Ancient Greeks. No one ever compared the Egyptians to Europeans, or even to their closest neighbors to the north.

    2. For well over 2500 years Egypt has been ruled by foreigners: Persians, Greeks, Romans, Arabs, Turks etc who also brought in numerous slaves from the north: from Europe, the Caucasus, Central Asia etc.

    3. The language of Ancient Egypt originated in Africa not in Europe. It is related to Ethiopian and other african languages.

    4. The obsession (of nordicists in particular) to deny the Africanness of Egypt is pathological.

    Any “genetic study” that finds these people to be Europeans should is suspect.

    • Agree: Okechukwu, AaronB
    • Replies: @Okechukwu
    , @utu
    , @German_reader
  217. Okechukwu says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    Cameroon convinced that by and large, they’re not interested in improving their values environment.

    I see you’ve never tried to do business in China, Uncle Wong. At least in Cameroon you can find among the people, the occasional honest, ethical human being. I would not say the same about China. Values environment in China? You must be out of your mind.

  218. Okechukwu says:
    @Bliss

    Any “genetic study” that finds these people to be Europeans should is suspect.

    Hehe. Here’s a “white” Ancient Egyptian with black skin and an afro:

  219. Anonymous[419] • Disclaimer says:
    @Okechukwu

    Actually, hundreds of millions of Africans are wealthier and live better than hundreds of millions of Chinese.

    This is unlikely. The 1 billion people of sub-Sahara Africa are very poor. Sub-Sahara Africa minus South Africa has a GDP per capita of around US$1,200. China in contrast has a GDP per capita of about US$9,000.

    Even though the urban-rural gap in China is severe due to lack of a robust welfare state in China (instead regular wage jobs are created for working age rural people who move to the cities), it is very unlikely that 200 million or the top 20% of sub-Saharan Africans (SSAs) live in conditions that exceed the quality of life of 200 million or the bottom 14% of Chinese.

    It’s quite possible still that the top 100 million SSAs live better than the bottom 100 million Chinese as the Chinese in that stratum would still not be able to adequately feed their children while the relative elites of SSA are at least food secure. But this isn’t exactly much to brag about. Perhaps your real point isn’t boastful bravado but just to at least point out China and SSA haven’t diverged so much that they are on different planets like the US would be.

    The African middle class is larger, as a percentage of the population, than China’s.

    There’s no need to be delusional because you are embarrassed about the lack of achievements of your race.

  220. Bliss says:
    @AaronB

    I favor a more authoritarian and non individualist culture. The state should promote good values and morality.

    What kind of authoritarianism? Monarchy? Theocracy? Dictatorship?

    Tolerance is an unstable equilibrium – the balance is always tipping. The true battle is between rival visions.

    So you want a people to be united by one Vision, like an intolerant Theocracy? What makes you think such a system is stable considering the historical record (example: 30 Years War)?

    Btw, why don’t you tell us the specific vision that you think is the best?

    • Replies: @AaronB
  221. utu says:
    @Bliss

    Any “genetic study” that finds these people to be Europeans should is suspect.

    ‘these people’ you are referring to are painted representations. These are 2-D paintings not people. Keep in mind Korzybski’s dictum: The map is not the territory. On the other hand, DNA samples were taken from mummies of actual people who lived in ancient Egypt. You are not looking at photographs. These are artistic representations according to skills, artistic convention, available pigments and tradition of color coding.

    Each color was created by mixing various naturally occurring elements and each became standardized in time in order to ensure a uniformity in art work. An Egyptian male, for example, was always depicted with a reddish-brown skin which was achieved by mixing a certain amount of the standard red paint recipe with standard brown. Variations in the mix would occur in different eras but, overall, remained more or less the same. This color for the male’s skin was chosen for realism in the piece, in order to symbolize the outdoor life of most males, while Egyptian women were painted with lighter skin (using yellow and white mixes) since they spent more time indoors.

    The gods were typically represented with gold skin, reflecting the belief that gods did, in fact, have gold skin. An exception to this is the god Osiris who is almost always shown with green or black skin symbolizing fertility, regeneration, and the underworld.

    There are also dog-human hybrids on these paintings. As far as I know DNA study did not find canine genes so far. Do you think they should keep looking for canine DNA? If they find canine admixture your belief that the paintings are realistic representation would be greatly reinforced.

    The bottom line is that these paintings can’t be used to determine actual spectral skin albedo of ancient Egyptians. No sane person will claim that they were white as Norwegians and no sane person will claim they were black like Ethiopians or Nigerians. Genetic studies suggest that they had lighter skin than modern inhabitants of Egypt. Perhaps their skin albedo was more like that of modern Syrians or Cypriots.

    The language of Ancient Egypt originated in Africa not in Europe. It is related to Ethiopian and other african languages.

    Get you act together and stop creating strawmen. Nobody is claiming anything about European languages. For obvious reasons very little is known for certain about Egyptian language:

    The Egyptian language belongs to the Afroasiatic language family.[...] Of the other Afroasiatic branches, Egyptian shows its greatest affinities with Berber,[6] Semitic and, to a lesser extent, Cushitic

    Although Egyptian is the oldest Afroasiatic language documented in written form, its morphological repertoire is very different from that of the rest of the Afroasiatic, in general, and Semitic, in particular.[10] There are multiple possibilities: Egyptian had already undergone radical changes from Proto-Afroasiatic before it was recorded, the Afroasiatic family has so far been studied with an excessively Semito-centric approach, or, as G. W. Tsereteli suggests, Afroasiatic is an allogenetic rather than a genetic group of languages.

    The obsession (of nordicists in particular) to deny the Africanness of Egypt is pathological.

    There is no obsession that I know of and there is no pathology in adherence to the truth and being able to discern what is true and what is not, what we know and what we do not know. DNA studies did not find any significant sub-Saharan admixture but found that ancient Egyptian were “more closely related to ancient Europeans and Anatolians than to modern Egyptians.”

    There will be more DNA studies coming so hopefully placing Egyptians on the racial map will be even more precise.

    • Replies: @songbird
    , @Okechukwu
  222. dfordoom says: • Website
    @Bliss

    You got a problem with the Enlightenment?

    I got a whole pile of problems with the Enlightenment. It was a seriously bad idea.

    You would rather live under a hereditary monarchy and aristocracy?

    Yes please.

  223. @Okechukwu

    You Russians were among the undesirables.

    The late 19th century Russian emigration to the US was predominantly Jewish.

    Why were they escaping European shithole nations if indeed Europeans are genetically fine-tuned for nation building and excellent governance?

    Britain isn’t a shithole country – well, it sort of is becoming one, thanks to all the Negroes and Mohammedans it is importing, but it’s not there yet – and yet hundreds of thousands of Britons leave yearly for Canada, Australia, and the US (and Iberia, for retirement).

    Leaving because your own country is a shithole country is something that is more specific to Negroes.

    Writings, I might add, which are on the very cusp of violating Article 282 of the Russian statute outlawing hate speech.

    Happily for me, Negroes are not one of the groups whose feelings the anti-extremism authorities care for.

    Besides, a dollar buys more in Los Angeles than it does in Moscow. And given that Russia is a net importer of most of their consumer goods, the collapse of the ruble makes the cost of living particularly painful. With Russia’s GDP per capita at just under $9,000, I’m stunned that the average Russian is able to make ends meet.

    1. Incorrect.
    2. Incorrect.
    3. With an GDP per capita of $2,000, I am amazed that Nigerians are not starving to death. Well, I’m not, actually. But you should be, since you apparently believe that “PPP is just a theory” (whereas We Wuz Kangz is well-documented history).

    That’s the main reason the Duma floated a bill that would criminalize with a prison sentence, the observance of US sanctions within the territory of Russia. But if it ever becomes law they’d have to imprison most of their bankers and oligarchs.

    As I have written, hopefully that does indeed happen.

    • Replies: @Okechukwu
  224. @Anon

    Most blacks are decent people

    I’m not sure about that, but certainly there are lots of blacks who are at least smart enough not to believe such absurd fairy tales as Okechukwu…who is simply a tedious idiot who’s got nothing but blackness and the evil of the white man on his mind.

  225. songbird says:
    @utu

    Early depictions of Europeans by the Japanese are somewhat artistic.

  226. @Bliss

    Any “genetic study” that finds these people to be Europeans should is suspect.

    Again, who’s claiming that ancient Egyptians were “Europeans”? No, the DNA evidence points to them being mostly related to Mideasterners, maybe with some admixture from East Africa (not the same people as Nigerians like annoying Okechukwu).
    You’re arguing against a straw man, as far as I can see nobody here claims ancient Egyptians were Nordics or some other absurdity.

  227. AaronB says:
    @Bliss

    Monarchy – not just as politics but as sacred kingship, with elements of theocracy – state religion with government promoting morals and values. It cannot merely be a political program but must have sacred and numinous elements.

    Intolerant Theocracy Light – some amount of tolerance is permitted, but within clear limits.

    The 30 years war proves nothing – what about WW1 happening at the very peak of the liberal world order. All systems are flawed and war is as an unavoidable feature on earth until we all become Buddha’s absorbed into nirvana, or the second coming occurs.

    • Replies: @Bliss
  228. Okechukwu says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    The late 19th century Russian emigration to the US was predominantly Jewish

    Oh! Da Joooos. LOL.

    Britain isn’t a shithole country

    It certainly isn’t now but it was a massive shithole in the past when it was all-white. Read Dickens’ depiction of British slums. Or go back further to the filth, squalor, poverty, social inequity and constant wars that characterized much of British history. Perhaps it’s not by accident that Britain’s emergence as a successful, progressive, forward looking country coincided with increased diversity. How are non-diverse Belarus or Moldova doing?

    thanks to all the Negroes and Mohammedans

    Why are you concerned with Muslims in Britain when Russia is overrun with them? Muslims make up 4% of the British population. In Russia, Muslims constitute 15% of the population. What’s more, a significant percentage of them are antsy and won’t long endure in that fake union.

    I’ve noticed that a great many of you Russians expats in the west (yes, you live in the west in spite of your protestations to the contrary) seem gleefully transfixed by visions of an impeding collapse of the west, all the while breezily oblivious to the more immediate and more eminent collapse of your own Mother Russia.

    1. Incorrect.

    This ranking lists Moscow as the 14th most expensive city in the World. Los Angeles is #24.

    Moscow, renowned for its elaborate architecture, is Russia’s most expensive city. Here, a two bedroom unfurnished apartment will cost you $4,249

    https://www.cnbc.com/2017/06/20/most-expensive-cities-for-expats.html

    To pay that much for a 2 bedroom apartment in Los Angeles you’d have to go to the toniest parts of Beverly Hills or Malibu. But the average 2 bedroom apartment in LA costs about half the price of a similar apartment in Moscow.

    2. Incorrect.

    Let me explain to you how the monetary system works and how currency devaluation increases the price of imported goods.

    Since the introduction of Obama era sanctions the ruble has lost much of its value. Today it’s trading at 62-1 USD, whereas prior to sanctions it was in the high 20′s to low 30′s. Russians import alot of goods because even they don’t want Russian made junk. When the ruble was 30-1 that flatscreen TV valued at $800 cost 24,000 rubles. But now that the ruble is 62-1 the same flatscreen costs 49,600 rubles. Get it now?

    since you apparently believe that “PPP is just a theory”

    Purchasing power parity hype is misleading and dangerous

    The ongoing hype about purchasing power parity in the Chinese context would be funny were its impact not so dangerous. In a world beset by hunger, violence and strife, data that tells a skewed story adds to the distrust and misinformation that detract from problem-solving.

    And yet that artificial mathematical measure continues to be presented by such revered institutions as the International Monetary Fund and the World Bank as a credible and useful tool for understanding the Chinese economy and where it might be heading.

    China’s own think tanks show little respect for this approach. Since April, when the first forecast of China overtaking the US in PPP terms made global headlines, the official Chinese media have carried rebuttals by Chinese researchers.

    https://www.tradingfloor.com/posts/purchasing-power-parity-hype-is-misleading-and-dangerous-1942810

    The Chinese complaint can be encapsulated by one of the examples given in the article. 1 in 10 Chinese meals are cooked using recycled oil scavenged from drains. Well, there is no US equivalent. The Chinese are poisoning themselves to save a few yuan while the Americans are paying for healthy, FDA certified cooking oil. Similarly, if Russians drink rubbing alcohol or moonshine out of bathtubs then they certainly have an advantage over Americans in terms of the price of liquor. But what are you measuring? You’re certainly not measuring productivity and economic dynamism.

    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
    , @AP
  229. Okechukwu says:
    @utu

    The bottom line is that these paintings can’t be used to determine actual spectral skin albedo of ancient Egyptians.

    While racism as we know it didn’t exist in ancient times, the Egyptians certainly were well aware of human coloration and pigmentation. After all, they had eyes.

    The Egyptian on the far right has a skin tone exactly like mine. The Nubian, third from the right, is depicted very darkly. That’s also accurate. Even today, people from present-day Sudan tend to have almost pitch black skin. The light-skinned ones are Asiatics.

    So you’re wrong, as you usually are.

    • Replies: @Bliss
    , @utu
    , @Bliss
  230. @Okechukwu

    You are a stupid troll who doesn’t know anything about economic history, about Russia, about myself, or even about your own people or heritage.

    Nor are you even entertaining.

    So I will not bother responding to you further, unless other commenters expressly wish me to address some point or other.

    • Agree: German_reader
  231. Dmitry says:

    There are quite a lot of rich Nigerian kids nowadays in London and surrounding educational areas.

    So there is some significant Russian-Nigerian interaction going on nowadays among some demographics’ Facebook friends’ lists, although the economics which bring them together is an ironic inversion of the dreams of a Soviet era (people of rich parents’ unite)

    • Replies: @Okechukwu
  232. Okechukwu says:
    @Dmitry

    When I was in Moscow, my then Russian girlfriend made me stay in the center of town so I wouldn’t get attacked by skinheads. Anyway, I ended up hiring Russian security and we went wherever we wanted, at all times of the day.

    You seem somewhat racist and you reflect the values that breed those skinheads. Hence the tinge of Russophobia in my comments is a reaction to that.

    Russia has a great culture and intriguing history. I particularly enjoy 19th century Russian literature — Dostoevsky, Tolstoy, Turgenev and that whole Victorian era. I’m thankful that my ex introduced me to Bulgakov and Akunin, along with classic Soviet era films like The Irony of Fate and Moscow Does Not Believe in Tears among many others.

    • Replies: @Anon
    , @anon
  233. Anon[298] • Disclaimer says:
    @Okechukwu

    You seem somewhat racist

    tinge of Russophobia

    Irony.

    values that breed those skinheads

    Huh?

    Russia has a great culture and intriguing history.

    You pointedly left out Pushkin– intriguing. Comments appreciated.

  234. anon[401] • Disclaimer says:
    @Okechukwu

    Anyway, I ended up hiring Russian security and we went wherever we wanted, at all times of the day.

    This sounds dubious. It looks like you’re making this up. The trip to Moscow. The girlfriend.

    • Agree: melanf
    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    , @Okechukwu
  235. Bliss says:
    @Okechukwu

    For your information, that painting is fake.

  236. Bliss says:
    @AaronB

    Monarchy – not just as politics but as sacred kingship, with elements of theocracy – state religion with government promoting morals and values.

    Intolerant Theocracy Light – some amount of tolerance is permitted, but within clear limits.

    Lemme guess: you are a Czarist, right?

    That would also explain your highly unusual support for both Buddhism and Islam at the same time. Since in Russia both are minority religions granted special status (along with Judaism) as part of Russian heritage.

    • Replies: @AaronB
  237. utu says:
    @Okechukwu

    After all, they had eyes.

    Worthy of Johnnie Cochran’s argument for OJ’s jury. After which Marcia Clark would show the jury some painting of Matisse or Picasso and ask whether the artist who pained it had eyes.

    Commenter Bliss claims the pict you posted is fake. I did not check it. It’s alleged it is from the tomb of Seti I.

  238. AP says:
    @Okechukwu

    It certainly isn’t now but it was a massive shithole in the past when it was all-white. Read Dickens’ depiction of British slums.

    Are slums of modern Nigeria better?

    Are parts of Britain populated by Africans better than those populated by natives?

    Are parts of modern Britain populated by Africans better now that they are populated by Africans, than when they were previously populated by natives (and not 120 years ago, but, say a decade or two prior to the arrival of the Africans)? And I don’t mean African elites.

    Answer honestly, please.

    How are non-diverse Belarus or Moldova doing?

    Much better than non-diverse Burundi.

    Moscow, renowned for its elaborate architecture, is Russia’s most expensive city. Here, a two bedroom unfurnished apartment will cost you $4,249

    LOL.

    https://real-estate-moscow.com/en/flat-rent

    2 bedroom apartment would be 3 rooms. As you can see, many go for $2,000+ monthly. And these are in the central, most prestigious areas.

    But the average 2 bedroom apartment in LA costs about half the price of a similar apartment in Moscow

    Does this average include ghetto areas of LA the likes of which do not exist in Moscow?

    Let me explain to you how the monetary system works and how currency devaluation increases the price of imported goods.

    But most purchases are not of imported goods. Russia makes its own food, clothes, various consumer products. Russians go to restaurants and theaters. They visit resorts in their own country. People spend more on these things, whose prices have gone down along with wages, per year than they do on imported flatscreen televisions.

    When the ruble was 30-1 that flatscreen TV valued at $800 cost 24,000 rubles. But now that the ruble is 62-1 the same flatscreen costs 49,600 rubles.

    See my comment above. And salaries in rubles have increased, though not nearly enough to fully compensate. Average wage was 33,000 rubles in 2013 compared to 38,000 currently.

    if Russians drink rubbing alcohol or moonshine out of bathtubs then they certainly have an advantage over Americans in terms of the price of liquor.

    Russian cognac and vodka is as good if not better than Western variants, at a fraction of the price. Beer is no worse. Wine is not as good.

    • Replies: @songbird
    , @Okechukwu
  239. Bliss says:
    @Okechukwu

    This is a copy of a painting of the original mural. The painter has misrepresented the original colorings:

    drawing by an unknown artist after a mural of the tomb of Seti I; Copy by Heinrich von Minutoli (1820). Note that the skin shades are due to the 19th century illustrator, not the Ancient Egyptian original.

    • Replies: @Bliss
  240. Bliss says:
    @Bliss

    Here is the original tomb mural on which that fake painting is based:

    You can see that color on the 4 guys (including 2 africans) on the left is faded. Still not white.

    • Replies: @utu
    , @Okechukwu
  241. @anon

    I think it is obvious that he’s never had a Russian friend, let alone a girlfriend.

  242. utu says:
    @Bliss

    Interesting. I wonder if the damage occur in last 200 years? How was it when it was copied in 1820?

  243. Okechukwu says:
    @anon

    This sounds dubious. It looks like you’re making this up. The trip to Moscow. The girlfriend.

    Sure, for a trailer dwelling troll like you going to Moscow and having a girlfriend are VERY big deals. I bet you don’t even have a passport.

  244. Okechukwu says:
    @Bliss

    Here is the original tomb mural on which that fake painting is based:

    That’s very interesting. Still, the original clearly demonstrates that skin tones were rendered realistically.

    • Replies: @Bliss
  245. songbird says:
    @AP

    Okechukwu has a very interesting model of economics.

    Nigeria is a dirt poor, hellish place where hundreds of thousands, perhaps even a many as two million starved to death, less than 50 years ago. Despite all the Nigerians and all the natural resources, it is dirt poor – as is arguably a large swath of the rest of Africa which Nigerians have invaded previously in the form of the Bantu expansion.

    Yet, somehow, despite all this, when Nigerians travel overseas in swarms like locusts, they are a radical economic asset, enriching everyone even as they blot out the sun. Not the industrial revolution! Not the transistor – but swarming, buzzing Nigerians!

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    , @Okechukwu
  246. Bliss says:
    @Okechukwu

    Actually in the original tomb mural the skin on the non-africans and 2 of the Nubians is faded. Here is a mural from another tomb which is in far better shape:

  247. AaronB says:
    @Bliss

    I’m not Russian, but I guess yeah I am a Czarist.

    I basically support religion and feudalism and want to end the Enlightenment. Its pretty simple.

    Ecrase l’enfame.

  248. Dmitry says:
    @songbird

    Rich Nigerian immigrants are flooding Western Europe with money though.

    It’s one of the petrodollar recycling situations – obviously sad for ordinary Nigerians that live even more poorly than Ukrainians, or even the majority in extreme poverty, despite the oil boom.

  249. melanf says:
    @Okechukwu

    All available evidence, including artwork and statuary, point to a black African origin of Ancient Egypt.

    Wild, wild nonsense. Here’s an ancient Egyptian depiction of a captive Nubian.

    And here is an ancient Egyptian depiction of the Egyptians themselves

    Nubian civilization actually predates and informed Egypt’s

    It’s just nonsense.

    • Replies: @Anon
  250. melanf says:
    @Okechukwu

    Here are the results of an anthropological study of the skulls of the ancient Egyptians:

    http://antropogenez.ru/zveno-single/302/

    Craniologically,” average ” Egyptians are markedly different from Negroids. The skull of the” middle ” Egyptian is long, medium-wide and medium-high, mesocratic on the verge of the dolichocrane, with a rather narrow forehead, with a not very high and narrow face, highly profiled between the eye space, very wide, but highly profiled and visibly protruding nasal bones, a small jaw. As can be seen, the vast majority of indicators are average in comparison with the global scale, which reflects the intermediate position of the East African race…

    Apparently, most of the population remained anthropologically almost unchanged from the Neolithic to the present,“

    • Replies: @Okechukwu
  251. Anon[298] • Disclaimer says:
    @melanf

    Nubians did have a fairly impressive civilization though, so it’s something for blacks to be legitimately proud of, even if they were East Africans rather than Bantu.

    • Agree: reiner Tor
    • Replies: @utu
    , @AaronB
  252. utu says:
    @Anon

    so it’s something for blacks to be legitimately proud of, even if they were East Africans rather than Bantu.

    Do English or Fins or Swedes have some ancient civilization to be proud of? We know and they know that Northern Europeans and Slavs were barbarians by standards of Greeks and Romans. They do not fantasize they are direct descendants of Greeks or Romans. However some upper classes or castes invented some false mythologies for themselves like Polish nobility who thought of themselves as some mythical Sarmatians. My point is that when you are more or less successful you do not need a fake mythology. Fake mythology is a crutch. That Sub Saharan Blacks are scrambling for some mythology whether it is Ancient Egypt or Abyssinia and connection to King Solomon via Haile Selassie by Rastafarians is a sign of desperation and Cargo cult mentality where appearances are suppose to change reality. I would go even as fas as suspecting that those who peddle this stuff are enemies of the black people because they side track them from what is really important. Do not waste time on BS like this. Get your act together. You want to succeed in the world you have to accept it including its history. History is created in the future. Create the history of which you can be proud of but do not try to change it.

    • Replies: @Okechukwu
    , @Anon
    , @Bliss
  253. Okechukwu says:
    @songbird

    Despite all the Nigerians and all the natural resources, it is dirt poor

    Stick to racist pseudoscience and stay clear of economics. What natural resources does Nigeria have? Oil? With a population of 180 million people it has a capacity of about 2 million barrels on a good day. Actual production averages about 1.5 million bpd. Kuwait with only 4 million people produces 3 million bpd. KSA with 32 million people produces 10 million bpd. Iraq with a population of 32 million produces 5 million bpd. So even if Nigerian oil revenues weren’t being stolen by Nigerian kleptocrats and their western collaborators, it wouldn’t make a dent. Like all resource curse burdened countries, which includes Russia, Nigeria would be far better off without oil.

    • Replies: @songbird
  254. Okechukwu says:
    @melanf

    Here are the results of an anthropological study of the skulls of the ancient Egyptians:

    Which skulls were examined? Remember, Ancient Egypt was ancient even to Cleopatra. Moreover, there’s no such thing as a “Negroid skull.” You cannot on the one hand have the most genetically rich continent and on the other hand have uniform cranial morphology.

    • Replies: @melanf
  255. AaronB says:
    @Anon

    Sure, and the Nubian civilization influenced Egypt as well. Africa also had other civilizations. We must emphasize these facts as much as possible.

    Young blacks need to be educated to see themselves as inheritors of civilization. No people can accomplish anything great unless it has a glorious mythological past it can emulate. We need role models and standards. Great heroes and statesmen, creators and warriors, artists and poets.

    Northern Europeans were barbarians until they learned to see themselves as the inheritors of the great civilizations of the ancient world, the Greeks, Romans, and Jews, and until they saw their mythology as their own.

    And Europeans are becoming barbarians once again because they have severed this connection. No people can be anything worthwhile without a great mythology – a great past serving as models to emulate, stretching past beyond history and into the mists of legend and myth, tales of gods and heroes.

    We must all see ourselves as “sons of gods”. And blacks have been deprived of their legitimate mythology for no reason, as there is quite enough factual basis for them to be seen as connected to civilization.

    So the task before is great but also inspiring and worthehile. For all – blacks, whites, and everyone.

  256. Okechukwu says:
    @utu

    We know and they know that Northern Europeans and Slavs were barbarians by standards of Greeks and Romans. They do not fantasize they are direct descendants of Greeks or Romans.

    Oh, shut up you imbecile. Ever heard the term white washing? Northern Europeans and their descendants, vastly more than any other group, have stolen and appropriated the history and culture of others. One glaring example is the blonde haired/blue eyed Jesus. The appropriation has been so thorough that most Christians are unaware that their faith is essentially a Jewish religious movement. Northern Europeans and their descendants have corrupted and destroyed important historical and archaeological artifacts in order to perpetuate their white supremacist narrative. They have done immense damage to the cultural heritage of humanity.

    I know of no Nigerians or black Americans who claim to be direct descendants of Ancient Egyptians or Nubians or even the builders of Great Zimbabwe. Nigerians have their own history which goes back millennia and of which there are numerous examples of enlightened and sophisticated people. Wanting to set the record straight on the white washing of Ancient Egypt is not the same as claiming descendancy from there nor does it mean that we are bereft of our own heritage.

  257. AaronB says:
    @Okechukwu

    You probably don’t need any encouragement from me, but your rhetoric is excellent.

    This is above all a spiritual battle. They are trying to undermine your morale and self respect. Jews did it to them, and now white nationalists think the path back to self respect is to do it to others. It is sad. They will grow out of it in time.

    But this is a spiritual battle above all – the goal is to undermine morale.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    , @Okechukwu
  258. @Okechukwu

    Northern Europeans and their descendants have corrupted and destroyed important historical and archaeological artifacts in order to perpetuate their white supremacist narrative. They have done immense damage to the cultural heritage of humanity.

    Without those evil Europeans the history of ancient Egypt would be largely unknown, its script undeciphered. While Europeans have undoubtedly destroyed some civilizations (notably in the Americas), on the whole they have done more than anybody else to preserve the cultural heritage of mankind.
    You’re just a typical white-hating African with narcissistic delusions.

    • Replies: @Bliss
  259. Anon[298] • Disclaimer says:
    @utu

    I’m not black. Anyway, while I do think focusing om the past to the exclusion of all else is absurd of course, and creating a fictional past to obsess over is even more absurd, it’s not a bad thing for blacks to be proud of historic civilizations built by black people. Northern Euros are proud to some extent of Roman accomplishments like Hadrian’s Wall or the Roman roads, even if it’s not a great extent. Indians are proud of Khajuraho to an extent even if they’re Punjabis or Tamils who had nothing to do with it. The trick is not to become obsessive or say something like “My civilization was better than yours 3000 years ago” as if anybody cares.

    • Agree: AaronB
    • Replies: @utu
    , @songbird
  260. utu says:
    @Anon

    Northern Euros are proud to some extent of Roman accomplishments like Hadrian’s Wall

    They recognize it as an accomplishment of the civilization they became a part of and as this civilization continuators. They do not see a conflict between them and civilizations of Romans and Greeks regardless who the Romans and Greeks were biologically. The biological connection is irrelevant.

    It is legitimate to look at civilizations and their accomplishments in comparative way which are better and in what sense. But it is nonsensical to derive any personal satisfaction from the fact that your civilization had greater accomplishments. All you can feel is gratitude you are a part of this civilization and then you should question yourself if you are worthy of it. This is even true when it comes to close biological connection like with your parents. Can you be proud of their accomplishments whether you yourself are a loser or not? Whatever they did it was without your contributions. My father was somebody! What is the purpose of such pronouncement if it is not just declarative but conveying also a pride?

    Pride is one of the deadly sins for a good reason but not in the way people think. Pride deludes. Pride conveys nothing. It has no information value. It is deceptive and irrational false promise that delivers nothing. And in long run pride debilitates because it reduces your motivation. It is like in the saying that ‘pride comes before a fall’ but the fall does not have to be sudden; it comes through slow and gradual descent. Pride has no ability to elevate. When you are down it keeps you down. That’s why the American pop psychology emphasis on ‘be proud’ is so counterproductive. It only leads to aggression. They are not selling just a snake oil but a snake venom. Look at #260 comment of AaronB. Have you ever wondered where did the forked tongue expression come from? Anyway, it is pure venom.

    • Replies: @AaronB
    , @Anon
  261. AaronB says:
    @utu

    Without self respect, one is depressed, unmotivated, and docile, easy prey. The first thing you do in attacking your enemy is attack his pride.

    Arrogance goes before a fall, but self respect is essential. All spiritual traditions stress this.

    To fail to take pride in ones ancestors or ones civilization is to deny ones underlying connection to others and the world. It is atomized individualism that is so spiritually crushing. It is also the bad kind of pride – the kind that says only I matter, and I’m too proud to be part of a group.

    You are an insidious demoralizer and materialist – your attack on values shall not stand utu!

    I know you now for who and what you are.

    Your insidious demoralizing shall not stand.

    • Replies: @utu
  262. utu says:
    @AaronB

    Your insidious demoralizing shall not stand.

    You are projecting.

    • Replies: @AaronB
  263. Anon[298] • Disclaimer says:
    @utu

    I don’t disagree, or at least I don’t think I do. Here is a Chesterton quote (from The Common Man) which may help to better convey my meaning:

    Indeed there is no better example of the definition of pride than the definition of patriotism. It is the noblest of all natural affections, exactly so long as it consists of saying, “May I be worthy of England.” It is the beginning of one of the blindest forms of Pharisaism when the patriot is content to say, “I am an Englishman.”

    I am not the person whose judgment matters, but people like our friend OK seem to me to have somewhat too much of the second kind.

    • Replies: @utu
  264. utu says:
    @Anon

    Great quote: “May I be worthy of England.” One can always count on Chesterton.

    The meaning of this “All you can feel is gratitude you are a part of this civilization and then you should question yourself if you are worthy of it” would be pretty much how Chesterton saw it.

    Thanks.

    • Replies: @AaronB
  265. AaronB says:
    @utu

    Ah, now you’re coming around finally.

    You now admit that seeing oneself as part of a great civilization can induce one to live up to its high standards, as I have been saying on this thread.

    Glad to see it. Buried inside you there is a kernel of good, even if you keep on losing sight of it all the time. Denying blacks the chance to live up to high standards like everyone else has not been your finest moment.

    Have no fear, utu, I shall always be here to push you back onto the right path, even when you stray rather far and wide.

    • Replies: @utu
  266. songbird says:
    @Anon

    Some put out the theory that Greece cannot get out of the shadow of its great past exactly because of the romanticism they have for it.

    I don’t think that is the real reason though.

  267. Bliss says:
    @utu

    Do not waste time on BS like this.

    Too funny coming from someone who is spending so much of his time and energy claiming that Ancient Egyptians were Europeans. The internet is heavily infested with obsessive foolish liars like you wasting time on BS like this.

    Afrocentrism started as a reaction to the Eurocentric whitewashing of the history of mankind, primarily by nordicists. The correction has been long overdue.

    Do English or Fins or Swedes have some ancient civilization to be proud of? We know and they know that Northern Europeans and Slavs were barbarians by standards of Greeks and Romans

    The Germanic forest/jungle tribes were the last of the Europeans to be civilized. “We” know it but many, if not most, of them (especially in North America) are still suffering from delusions of ancient grandeur: “we wuz Pharaohs, Aryans, Hebrews, Greeks, Romans and so forth”.

    • Replies: @German_reader
  268. songbird says:
    @Okechukwu

    With a population of 180 million

    Nigerians are Nigeria’s greatest resource, one that we simply cannot allow other countries to expropriate. A return of expats would bring them closer to the goal of one billion Nigerians in Nigeria by 2100. With a number like that they should be the dominant global power and leave China, Russia, and the US, in the dust.

  269. @Bliss

    Too funny coming from someone who is spending so much of his time and energy claiming that Ancient Egyptians were Europeans

    Where did utu claim that?

    • Replies: @Bliss
  270. Bliss says:
    @German_reader

    While Europeans have undoubtedly destroyed some civilizations (notably in the Americas), on the whole they have done more than anybody else to preserve the cultural heritage of mankind.

    No one is denying that.

    Nor is anyone denying that the modern age of science, technology, industry, sports we are living in, is Europe’s gift to mankind. How could anyone deny that?

    • Replies: @German_reader
  271. @Bliss

    No one is denying that.

    Well, Okechukwu does:

    Northern Europeans and their descendants, vastly more than any other group, have stolen and appropriated the history and culture of others. One glaring example is the blonde haired/blue eyed Jesus. The appropriation has been so thorough that most Christians are unaware that their faith is essentially a Jewish religious movement. Northern Europeans and their descendants have corrupted and destroyed important historical and archaeological artifacts in order to perpetuate their white supremacist narrative. They have done immense damage to the cultural heritage of humanity.

    Sounds a bit one-sided to me.

    • Replies: @Bliss
    , @Okechukwu
  272. Bliss says:
    @German_reader

    Comment #217 is one example.

    • Replies: @German_reader
    , @utu
  273. utu says:

    Too funny coming from someone who is spending so much of his time and energy claiming that Ancient Egyptians were Europeans.

    Do not put words in my mouth. I was citing papers that did DNA tests on mummies. They did not conclude that Egyptians were Europeans in sense of modern Europeans. Somewhere above in the thread I gave links to the papers. They are available on line. Read them and try to understand what they said. I am not claiming anything beyond what can backed by their results. I have no reason to doubt their science and methodology. You won’t be able to wish away these results. More results will be coming. And if I were you I would not worry about my time and energy particularly when it is spent to educate.

    are still suffering from delusions of ancient grandeur

    And your cure for this delusion would be to replace it with another delusion? That Ancient Egyptians were black and had some connections with Afro-Americans? Why would you like to spread such blatant nonsense when it is contradicted by genetics? Why would you like to set up people who would believe you for a certain ridicule?

    • Replies: @Bliss
  274. @Bliss

    You mean that?

    Genetics studies of mummies form Egypt are what they are. They clearly indicate that there was no significant genetic component from Sub-Saharans Africans (SSA). Furthermore because modern population of Egypt has acquired SSA admixture in last 1000 years or so the research showed that:

    Strikingly, the mummies were more closely related to ancient Europeans and Anatolians than to modern Egyptians.

    As I understand it, this basically means ancient Egyptians were a mostly Mideastern population, therefore (somewhat) related to the early farmers who brought agriculture to Europe. That doesn’t imply ancient Egyptians were like modern-day Europeans, let alone Nordics.
    Maybe utu will comment again. I’m out of this discussion.

    EDIT: I see utu already did comment. Oh well, I’m just too slow.

  275. utu says:
    @Bliss

    These are quotes from papers:

    Ancient Egyptian mummy genomes suggest an increase of Sub-Saharan African ancestry in post-Roman periods

    https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms15694

    We find that ancient Egyptians are most closely related to Neolithic and Bronze Age samples in the Levant, as well as to Neolithic Anatolian and European populations (Fig. 5a,b). When comparing this pattern with modern Egyptians, we find that the ancient Egyptians are more closely related to all modern and ancient European populations that we tested

    Mummy DNA unravels ancient Egyptians’ ancestry
    Genetic analysis reveals a close relationship with Middle Easterners, not central Africans.

    https://www.nature.com/news/mummy-dna-unravels-ancient-egyptians-ancestry-1.22069

    Both types of genomic material showed that ancient Egyptians shared little DNA with modern sub-Saharan Africans. Instead, their closest relatives were people living during the Neolithic and Bronze ages in an area known as the Levant. Strikingly, the mummies were more closely related to ancient Europeans and Anatolians than to modern Egyptians.

    • Replies: @AaronB
  276. Bliss says:
    @German_reader

    Well, Okechukwu does:

    You can’t deny that he is right about historical and cultural appropriation by Eurocentrists.

    As for the destruction of historical artifacts greed trumped hate and innumerable artifacts have survived thanks to European museums and collectors paying good money for them.

  277. AaronB says:
    @utu

    That’s like saying since Roman emperors were not genetic Greeks, Greeks did not substantially participate in shaping Roman culture!

    The genetic character of the ruling classes of Egypt tells us little about the overall ethnic make up of Egyptian society or if there was significant participation of sub Saharan blacks in that culture. Or indeed if Egyptian culture did not draw inspiration from the “matrix” of surrounding African cultures, as Okechecku suggests.

    A much more rational method would be cultural analysis in general and analysis of artistic artifacts and paintings – and this undoubtedly suggests a substantial sub Saharan participation.

    Egyptian culture had a massive influence on Greek culture – but no doubt the proper method of gauging the extent of this is to do genetic testing on the tombs of Greek kings! :)

    The facts are murky, but it seems well established that sub Saharan blacks had a connection to, and participated in, ancient Egyptian culture – and that Nubian culture was very impressive and closely related to Egyptian culture. This does not mean Egyptian culture was entirely or even mainly a creation of sub Saharan blacks, and no one has argued that here.

    The poverty of your arguments and the tenacity with which you seek to deny blacks any higher model they can emulate suggests a surprisingly spiteful, envious, and petty personality!

    Really utu, you are truly unfolding your venomous personality here like never before…

    We only got glimmers of who you were before…but you are a venom-spitting snake! I really had no idea! Daniel Chieh read you much better than I did.

    And then there’s the question of diplomacy – I bet you tell every ugly woman you meet she’s ugly because its the “truth”!

    Yikes. I hope I never run into you in real life.

  278. utu says:
    @AaronB

    You now admit that seeing oneself as part of a great civilization can induce one to live up to its high standards, as I have been saying on this thread.

    What I said did not imply it. I know you are against logic but read what I said and use logic just for a little bit. I am sure your Mahayana Tzadik will absolve you for the transgression of using logic.

    Denying blacks the chance to live up to high standards like everyone else

    If by this you mean that because I am not willing to entertain somebody’s childish fantasies and this somehow will deny their chance to live up to higher standards I must plead guilty. I have addressed this issue already in my previous comment in this thread:

    a paternalistic approach as AaronB advocates and let you have Egypt in hope that this myth will boost your future well being and performance, however AaronB comes from the tradition of Haggadah where the truth is not fixed and myth becomes utilitarian truth. Our European tradition comes form Greeks is different. The truth is an absolute abstract that is not there to be utilized and manipulated. So our opposition to the myth building by Afrocentric nationalist who try to utilize ancient Egypt history fraudulently stems from loyalty to our philosophical tradition on which our civilization was built. We can’t let you win in this debate which you are forcing on us because we may not let our children to be taught falsities in schools. This is against the fundamental principle of our tradition. W/o this principle science and civilization will collapse. So we will not treat you as children as AaronB would have it but as responsible members of a human race. But you by pushing this nonsensical debate are doing a great disservice to your race unless you really want AaronB’s of this world to be your daddies.

    The difference between us is our relation to the truth. In Judaic tradition, from which you come, you treat it instrumentally. Now for example you happen to have a whim that if 2+2 would be equal to 5 it would help Blacks. I am sorry, in our European tradition you can’t do it. We are with Athens on it not with Jerusalem.

    But you can go on egging on shameless provocateurs ignoramuses like this OK character:

    You probably don’t need any encouragement from me, but your rhetoric is excellent.

    This is above all a spiritual battle. They are trying to undermine your morale and self respect.

    It occurred to me that I would not be surprised if it turned out that the OK character is a Jewish troll. He is a Nigerian like you are a Buddhist. Birds of feather…

    Perhaps it would be good if you refrained from further addressing comments to me. Use the excellent HIDE THREAD feature (I use it for Wally) that Ron Unz provided, so you won’t be tempted. I have told you already once I am tired of your BS.

    • Replies: @AaronB
  279. AaronB says:
    @utu

    I am not actually replying to you – I am writing for the 98% who are the invisible audience here. I do feel its my responsibility to oppose you morally. You have a bad character. So I can’t entirely ignore you.

    But you should put me on your ignore list. I think that would be a good idea!

  280. Bliss says:
    @utu

    I have no reason to doubt their science and methodology. You won’t be able to wish away these results.

    Because you are not looking for the truth. You are just another pathetic racist obsessed with denying the africanness of Ancient Egypt. How much time have you wasted on this BS?

    Their methodology is faulty: the samples are all from just one site and from a time span that included Greek and Roman rule.

    Not surprisingly their conclusion is laughable:

    we find that the ancient Egyptians are more closely related to all modern and ancient European populations that we tested

    Btw, the Pharoah Ramesses III was found to have Y-DNA Haplogroup E1b1a which is sub-saharan african. And the language of ancient Egypt was also African.

    Continue wasting your time…

    • Replies: @AaronB
    , @utu
  281. AaronB says:
    @Bliss

    and from a time span that included Greek and Roman rule.

    I suspected that was the case and was gonna include that in my reply, but I didn’t want to actually read that article if I could make good points without doing so.

    Btw, the Pharoah Ramesses III was found to have Y-DNA Haplogroup E1b1a which is sub-saharan african. And the language of ancient Egypt was also African

    .

    Ah, well then! The case is even stronger than I later out. Figures.

    Our utu really is a dishonest weasel…

    • Agree: Bliss
  282. @AaronB

    Or it’s just a conversation about reality. For the white commenters, at any rate. Which is why you will find anti-Jewish commenters passionately arguing that Jews are genetically smarter. You have a Russian nationalist arguing here that Russians are innately more corrupt (and somewhat less smart) than Western Europeans. Etc.

    • Replies: @AaronB
  283. AaronB says:
    @reiner Tor

    You’re so adorably European :)

    Look at how utu selectively didn’t see what he didn’t want to see, motivated as he was by a desire to deny blacks anything that would raise their morale, and his hatred of me. Not only did he misrepresent facts, as Bliss showed, but he “failed” to see holes in his logic that took me a second to notice the moment I directed my attention to it.

    The people arguing for superior Jewish intelligence ignore massive amounts of contrary data and shockingly bad logic because that position is integral to their entire materialistic world view and they are hugely emotionally invested in maintaining it. Its almost a joke by this point. Who knows what motivates the Russians…

    Its not that humans can never have a conversation about “reality”, its just that we humans are so riddled with emotional biases that such conversations are extraordinary and unusual occurrences on any topic that might carry the slightest emotional significance, and European culture is the only one silly and naive to not recognize that fact…

    But this thread here was most certainly not about reality in any sense..ancient history may be murky, but there is more than enough evidence to establish that sub Saharan blacks participated in ancient Egyptian culture…the strenuous objections to this rather tame and cautious position makes no sense unless viewed in the light of serious emotional biases of a rather sinister kind…

    I’m not against “fact” – but I favor taking into consideration emotional, moral, and political factors. This doesn’t mean you lie about the facts, but it does mean that if as in this case, the facts establish an African connection than one should emphasize that if it can have a positive moral effect on blacks…who could possibly object to that?!?!? Oh, that’s right!

    No one was claiming blacks were responsible for gothic architecture for God’s sake…

    This talk of “reality” is just a mask for pushing your particular biases…if the evidence is murky, it is just as realistic to emphasize its positive implications as its negative…

    “Reality” is a European cultural code word – it is very far from having a neutral meaning, it is basically a highly specific technical term in European culture – it means to dogmatically assert something harsh, unpleasant, and bleak even if illogical and well beyond what is warranted by the facts, in order to satisfy an emotional desire to see oneself “hard”. That is why materialism is described as “realistic” in European culture, even though its logically indefensible.

    Genuine and true “realism” is extremely rare and is perfectly compatible with considering moral implications and generally looking at things from many angles…

    Look, I get it – you Europeans have grown stupid. All you can see are “facts”. You are blind to any other considerations. You have lost the ability to situate facts in a larger context of meaning. Strangely, this has led you to not even be honest about facts, like on this thread..its more my like you’re just relentlessly driven to be bleak and harsh even if that goes against the facts and is illogical, and call this “realism”…

    I get this. Its why you’re dying. Its why you have no future. Its why utu is so bitter and venomous. Its why Jews run circles around you…

    But it’s also why I must do my part to restore true honest realism to the next generation…

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
  284. @AaronB

    Tl;dr. What I read was enough for me to recognize that you are a postmodernist cultural Marxist who is feeding us Derrida.

    • Replies: @AaronB
  285. melanf says:
    @Okechukwu

    Northern Europeans and their descendants, vastly more than any other group, have stolen and appropriated the history and culture of others. One glaring example is the blonde haired/blue eyed Jesus.

    Absurd logic, for many reasons.
    Christ in the vast majority of European images – not blond.
    Christ could have been blond because blondes were found among Jews (king David was blond according to the Bible).
    If the Ethiopians portrayed Christ with black skin-so they have stolen and appropriated the history and culture of others?

    The appropriation has been so thorough that most Christians are unaware that their faith is essentially a Jewish religious movement.

    It’s just nonsense.

    Northern Europeans and their descendants have corrupted and destroyed important historical and archaeological artifacts in order to perpetuate their white supremacist narrative.

    It’s a very stupid conspiracy theor

    • Replies: @Bliss
  286. melanf says:
    @Okechukwu

    Wanting to set the record straight on the white washing of Ancient Egypt is not the same as claiming descendancy from there nor does it mean that we are bereft of our own heritage.

    Egyptians in European art portrayed how the Egyptians really were – people with dark skin, not “white” and not ” black”

    And about the heritage-can you show pictures of African artists on the theme of Ancient Egypt, novels of African writers about ancient Egypt, architecture based on Ancient Egypt? In the “Northern Europe” was created many such works of art. Here are the doors of the house in St. Petersburg-Nigeria build something similar?

  287. melanf says:
    @Okechukwu

    Which skulls were examined? Remember, Ancient Egypt was ancient even to Cleopatra.

    The skulls remained from the Egyptians from 4 000 ВС. There are a lot of such remains.

    Moreover, there’s no such thing as a “Negroid skull.”

    There is such a thing as a Negroid skull, just as there is a Negroid race. Those same Nubians were undoubtedly Negroids.

  288. utu says:
    @Bliss

    Pharoah Ramesses III was found to have Y-DNA Haplogroup E1b1a

    I did not know about this result. Found the paper that reported it:

    Revisiting the harem conspiracy and death of Ramesses III: anthropological, forensic, radiological, and genetic study
    Z Hawass, S Ismail, A Selim, SN Saleem, D Fathalla… – BMJ, 2012 – bmj.com

    As you can see it was about murder conspiracy. The paper had acquired 38 citations since. Most are concerned with the murder conspiracy and technique of how X-ray and tomography was used. Nobody challenges the ‘Y-DNA Haplogroup E1b1a’ finding and nobody really discusses it. This is strange. If the result is so important why nobody (scientific papers not hysterical websites) makes a big deal out of it? You probably got the info from one of those hysterical websites. The DNA test they did is really ancillary to their main objective which was to determine the cause of death but they also wanted to find out for the purpose of the scenario of the murder whether the other mummy was that of Ramesses’s son. Thus the genetic test was paternal relationship test. The determination of the haplogroup was just incidental. So perhaps for this very reason they did not discuss accuracy of it because halpogroup determination requires higher test precision that paternal relationship test.

    Their paper is not cited by 2017 paper
    https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms15694. which I posted here before where much more extensive study was done in terms of numbers of DNA markers used that could establish true ancestry unlike Y chromosome haplogroup which cannot tell us about the percentage of admixture.

    Anyway, thanks for this info. I would not get too excited about it though.

    Now let’s get to the best part:

    Because you are not looking for the truth. You are just another pathetic racist obsessed with denying the africanness of Ancient Egypt.

    I understand that you may get frustrated with me. I am perhaps a first person who treated you as a person in this matter. You never met anybody who challenged you because most people would nod in agreement because (1) they did not want to embarrass you if they knew or they did not care if the did not know, (2) they were afraid of being accused of racism as you just did to me and (3) they were ‘noble’ like AaronB and thought that why not, let him have it if it can make him happier and perhaps he and his people have a better future. I unlike them I want to get to the bottom of it. It is a scientific question that has no utility for me. It is just a matter what is true and what is not. With DNA techniques we can resolve it and basically we already did. I did not treat you instrumentally (check II Categorical Imperative of Kant for it). I treated you as a person who I should not be paternalistic to and as a person who I will not fear and as a person I do care what is his opinion.

    If you prefer to be treated paternalistically or that people are afraid of you because you will be screaming ‘a racist’ or that they just do not give damn about you be my guest. But believe me the whole Ancient Egypt and even if we throw in Mesopotamia and Ancient China will not help you to become who you should become. You can’t build anything on a lie.

    • Replies: @Bliss
  289. Bliss says:
    @melanf

    Christ could have been blond because blondes were found among Jews (king David was blond according to the Bible).

    Endless bullshit. The only times hair color is mentioned in the Bible it is black, white or gray:

    The splendor of old men is their gray hair (Proverbs 20:29)

    You cannot make one hair white or black (Matthew 5:36)

    • Replies: @melanf
  290. Bliss says:
    @utu

    Nobody challenges the ‘Y-DNA Haplogroup E1b1a’ finding

    Amazing that you find that suspicious, but the methodologically flawed dna test that ridiculously concluded that the ancient Egyptians were closely related to modern Europeans made perfect sense to you. Which proves you are an idiot, brainwashed by 19th century racist lies.

    No contemporary of the Ancient Egyptians ever compared them to Europeans. The comparison was always to other africans. I have already posted on this thread how the Greek historian Herodotus concluded that the Colchians must be a colony of Egyptians since they were both black skinned, curly haired and circumcised. Here’s a little tidbit from the Greek philosopher Aristotle:

    https://archive.org/stream/worksofaristotle07arisuoft/worksofaristotle07arisuoft_djvu.txt

    Why are the Ethiopians and the Egyptians bandy-legged ? Is it because the bodies of living creatures become distorted by heat, like logs of wood when they become dry ? The condition of their hair too supports this theory ; for it is curlier than that of other nations, and curliness is as it were crookedness of the hair.

  291. utu says:

    You understand what ‘Y-DNA Haplogroup E1b1a’ says about paternal ancestry? That this dude’s father, grandfather, or g-g-father…in his paternal line had E1b1a which means that he was 50% or 25% or 12.5% or 6.25%… ethnically sub-saharan African. But we do not know which case it is. W/o more DNA tests we will not know whether it is 100% or 1%.

    This is the reason than nobody jumped on this results except for racists ignoramuses web sites of either white or black persuasion. Apparently that’s is where you get your education.

    And thank you for this one

    Which proves you are an idiot, brainwashed by 19th century racist lies.

    which I am filing under Examples of Black Rhetorical Skills. You singlehandedly greatly enriched my collection.

    • Replies: @utu
    , @Bliss
  292. utu says:
    @utu

    I wanted to see what else did we miss about DNA in Egypt so I looked at

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DNA_history_of_Egypt

    They talk about 2017 study of 151 mummies but there is no mention of Ramses III Haplogroup E1b1a. Is it another White Man conspiracy or is it irrelevancy of this finding combined with ineptitude and laziness of proponents of the Black Ancient Egypt hypothesis that they even did not bother to put it in the wiki entry?

  293. melanf says:
    @Bliss

    Christ could have been blond because blondes were found among Jews (king David was blond according to the Bible).

    Endless bullshit. The only times hair color is mentioned in the Bible it is black, white or gray:
    The splendor of old men is their gray hair (Proverbs 20:29)
    You cannot make one hair white or black (Matthew 5:36)

    Samuel 16:12

    English translation:
    So he sent and brought him in. Now he was ruddy, with beautiful eyes and a handsome appearance

    But russian translation
    So he sent and brought him in. He was blonde, with beautiful eyes and a handsome appearance
    (И послал и привели его. Он был белокур, с красивыми глазами и приятным
    лицем)

    I now looked at the specialized forum – both are possible translations (as well as David in the Bible could be red-haired )

    But in any case among the population of Syria and the Levant blondes are (though rarely).
    Here’s a girl from Iraq:

    Among European Jews, quite a lot of blondes (though of course the biblical Jews are very distant relatives of Ashkenazi)

    • Replies: @AaronB
    , @German_reader
  294. AaronB says:
    @melanf

    So Jesus could have been blonde, but ancient Egyptians couldn’t have had any connection to black Africans. And its evil and dishonest to tell blacks they may have some connection to ancient Egypt. In fact they are closer to Nordics. But nordics don’t pride themselves on connections to ancient civilization. So they’d never say that. But still, don’t forget that ancient Egyptians are Nordic.

    Great takeaway from this thread :)

    • Replies: @melanf
    , @reiner Tor
  295. melanf says:
    @AaronB

    So Jesus could have been blonde, but ancient Egyptians couldn’t have had any connection to black Africans. And its evil and dishonest….

    Please discuss what I really wrote, but not fakes invented by you

  296. @melanf

    I think it’s controversial what that “He was ruddy” about King David is supposed to mean, iirc there’s also an interpretation that it refers to skin tone (so King David would have had reddish-brown skin…he certainly wasn’t black though).
    There sometimes are red-haired people in the Mideast even today though (e.g. Saddam’s general Izzat Ibrahim).

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    , @melanf
  297. @AaronB

    I think you have engaged a straw man here.
    No one suggested that “ancient Egyptians couldn’t have had any connection to black Africans.” That would be untrue.

    Ancient Egyptians were connected to Nubians, who were black Africans. They even were conquered for a while by Nubians. I vaguely recall that while it was mostly the Egyptians who influenced the Nubians (and the Egyptians, in turn, were greatly influenced by the Middle East), at least some elements of Egyptian culture were inspired or influenced by the Nubians. Maybe even the pyramids..? I’m too lazy to look it up now.

    Anyway, the issue is simply if Egyptians were black Africans or not. They were not. Neither were they Europeans. Even Middle Easterners weren’t Europeans, though they were more closely related to Europeans than present day Middle Easterners. Egyptians were somewhat more distant from Europeans than Middle Easterners, but anyway even Middle Easterners weren’t the same as Europeans.

    Anyway, I don’t think it’s fruitful to discuss it with a postmodernist who thinks that it’s basically impossible to discuss reality as such. To me, discussion is not primarily an ideological battle.

    • Replies: @AaronB
  298. Dmitry says:
    @German_reader

    I’m studying Hebrew at the moment. There’s differences between Modern Hebrew and Biblical Hebrew.

    The interpretation for Hebrew speakers is that King David red-haired, rather than blonde.

    In Modern Hebrew, to call someone ‘red-haired’ is – “gingy”
    ג’ינג’י

    It’s the same as in English ‘Ginger’.

    The bible describes for King David in the Bible
    אדמוני

    ‘Reddish’.

    “Admoni” seems to mean he was ‘red-haired’ (according to the Hebrew websites). As they didn’t have the modern word: “gingy”.

    In addition, the same word is used specifically to describe Esau’s hair, so presumably it was used the same in this context.

    -

    Red-hair is common in the region (although presumably a bit maladaptive) – even with native (Middle Eastern latitude) populations like Iraqi immigrants in Israel:

    Asher’s hair is dyed blonde, but she brought photographs proving her status as a true redhead, and claims to be the matriarch of several generations of redheads.

    “I suggest that you never dye your hair,” the Iraq-born Asher says

    https://www.haaretz.com/.premium-finally-a-red-alert-that-israelis-welcomed-1.5262135

    • Replies: @German_reader
    , @melanf
    , @Bliss
  299. @Dmitry

    Thanks, that’s interesting.

  300. Bliss says:
    @utu

    That this dude’s father, grandfather, or g-g-father…in his paternal line had E1b1a which means that he was 50% or 25% or 12.5% or 6.25%… ethnically sub-saharan African. But we do not know which case it is. W/o more DNA tests we will not know whether it is 100% or 1%.

    But you have already decided that the ancient Egyptians are genetically closest to Europeans, showing how stupidly and shamelessly dishonest you are:

    Genetics studies of mummies form Egypt are what they are. They clearly indicate that there was no significant genetic component from Sub-Saharans Africans (SSA). Furthermore because modern population of Egypt has acquired SSA admixture in last 1000 years or so the research showed that:

    Strikingly, the mummies were more closely related to ancient Europeans and Anatolians than to modern Egyptians.

    which was further reinforced by this statement:

    we find that the ancient Egyptians are more closely related to all modern and ancient European populations that we tested

    Willfully disregarding facts like:

    the Egyptians spoke and wrote in an african language (long before Europeans even learned how to write).

    the Egyptians do not look like Europeans in their paintings and sculptures

    the Egyptians were described by the Greeks as being racially unlike themselves.

    the Egyptians were described by the Greeks as being racially and culturally similar to their african neighbors to the south. Not to asiatics or europeans.

    • Replies: @melanf
    , @utu
  301. melanf says:
    @German_reader

    There sometimes are red-haired people in the Mideast even today though

    So Yes – David could (hypothetically) have blonde hair

  302. melanf says:
    @Dmitry

    The bible describes for King David in the Bible
    אדמוני
    ‘Reddish’.
    “Admoni” seems to mean he was ‘red-haired’

    Interestingly, in this case, the medieval Russian translation of this fragment of the Bible, was more accurate than the modern translation. In the medieval version David was a ginger

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  303. melanf says:
    @Bliss

    the Egyptians were described by the Greeks as being racially unlike themselves.

    But in what I write I follow the Greek report, and hold that the Greeks correctly recount these kings of the Dorians as far back…, if the king’s ancestors in each generation, from Danae daughter of Acrisius upward, be reckoned, then the leaders of the Dorians will be shown to be true-born Egyptians. ”

    Herodotus VI, 53

  304. Bliss says:
    @Dmitry

    “Admoni” seems to mean he was ‘red-haired’

    Sounds dubious to me for the following reasons:

    1. The word hair is not mentioned along with ruddy.

    2. Wherever hair color of a young person is specifically mentioned in the Bible it is invariably black.

    3. Light hair is usually accompanied by light eyes. There is no mention of light eyes in the Bible.

    By the way, the word “Admoni” was associated with the “evil” Esau long before David. What does that imply?

  305. Dmitry says:
    @melanf

    Interestingly, in this case, the medieval Russian translation of this fragment of the Bible, was more accurate than the modern translation. In the medieval version David was a ginger

    This is the 19th century translation. It could also reflect that red-hair was seen as less attractive in the 19th century.

    But there might also be a reason for confusion. I also found that in Modern Hebrew, they also use ‘golden’ (as ways of describing ‘ginger hair’).

    Whereas blonde is a specific word: ‘blondini’

    For example, they have a famous poem by Miriam Yalan Stekelis about this subject, which they use to teach children not to bully red-haired children.

    In the poem, a child goes to bed at night, and King David tells him he has red hair (ginger), so he shouldn’t worry. But he also uses the word ‘golden’ to describe red hair.

    -

    The red hair itself is obviously common in the region.

    For example, it is common in Samaritans.

    Sofi Tsedaka is Samaritan (Samaritans are people unchanged and which did not intermarry since Jesus’ time), and has some dark-reddish hair.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sofi_Tsedaka

    So if you want to know how people like Jesus or King David looked, then a Samaritan woman of today:

    • Replies: @Bliss
  306. AaronB says:
    @reiner Tor

    First you have to decide if I’m a primitive religious fanatic who’s trying to take us back to the stone age (yes) or a postmodern cultural Marxist who supports religion and families because it undermines ancient European values of apathy and surrender (no).

    Look, my position is simple. Black Africans clearly had some non negligible level of participation in Egyptian culture and some influence on it.

    Why not emphasize this fact if it will help black Americans today see civilized values as part of their past and as something they can aspire to today.

    I am not saying we should claim Egyptian civ is entirely or largely a creation of black Africans. No one here is saying that.

    My position stays well within established fact without making any outlandish claims. I merely go one step further, and look at the potential moral usefulness of this fact.

    Now, this OK fellow is understandably insecure because white civilization has been so brilliant. That’s led him to say some extreme things and go too far. I think that’s excusable. What’s more, whites colonized blacks, which is another source of resentment, understandably.

    Since your people have accomplished so much, and your superiority is beyond question, why not show a little sympathy for other people who are not so fortunate if its possible to do so while staying within the bounds of established fact and not hurting your own interests. I’m not saying we should agree that black Africans created the industrial revolution or gothic cathedrals.

    • Replies: @Bliss
  307. utu says:
    @Bliss

    But you have already decided that the ancient Egyptians are genetically closest to Europeans, showing how stupidly and shamelessly dishonest you are

    I did not decide it. It was decided by genetic results. It was also decided for you. It is an objective fact. You must incorporate this fact into your narrative. Otherwise you are in a denial of a hard scientific facts risking of becoming an obscurantist. There will be more tests coming. The sample will be larger and hopefully covering wider time periods. A better picture will emerge. Still the 2017 paper Verena J. Schuenemann et al. https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms15694
    covers already a pretty good range of samples “Pre-Ptolemaic Periods (n=44), the Ptolemaic Period (n=27) and the Roman Period (n=19).”

    The statement “genetically closest to Europeans” has to be properly understood. In their methodology they used many samples from modern and ancient ME, Europe and Africa and modern Egypt for comparison. The comparison is done with several techniques like principal component analysis (PCA) that can yield percentages. It all comes down to numbers of percentages. For example when comparing modern and ancient Egyptians:

    Absolute estimates of African ancestry using these two methods in the three ancient individuals range from 6 to 15%, and in the modern samples from 14 to 21% depending on method and choice of reference populations

    By African they mean Sub-Saharan African. So having 6-15% African admixture explains the finding of E1b1a in Ramses III by Hawass et a. in 2012. At the same time the result implies that 85-94% was non African. In this sense the statement “ancient Egyptians are genetically closest to Europeans” is justified providing that the term “European” is qualified.

    I think apart form reading papers by Schuenemann et al. you could contact her an ask her about explanation of E1b1a by Hawasss et al. and how does it square with her results. Actually coauthors to be contacted are: Wolfgang Haak, Stephan Schiffels & Johannes Krause.

    • Replies: @Bliss
  308. Bliss says:
    @Dmitry

    Sofi Tsedaka is Samaritan (Samaritans are people unchanged and which did not intermarry since Jesus’ time), and has some dark-reddish hair……So if you want to know how people like Jesus or King David looked, then a Samaritan woman of today:

    That’s not red hair. If you go by both the Old and New Testaments the jews were all black haired. Here’s a reconstruction from a skeleton of Jesus’s era:

    That looks quite a bit like Mo Salah the Egyptian who has taken the world of Football (Soccer) by storm this year:

    • Replies: @AP
    , @Dmitry
  309. Bliss says:
    @utu

    covers already a pretty good range of samples “Pre-Ptolemaic Periods (n=44), the Ptolemaic Period (n=27) and the Roman Period (n=19).”

    The majority of the samples are from the Greek and Roman periods. And before the Greeks there were the Persians and Assyrians. Plus they are from one site. Pretty idiotic of you to keep insisting that Egyptians were from Europe not Africa based on flawed methodology.

    1. Egyptian civilization began in the Deep South of Egypt when even Greeks were barbarians

    2. The Egyptian language arose in Africa and was being written well over a thousand years before the first sparse evidence of Greek writing.

    3. Herodotus (5th century BC) and Aristotle (4th century BC) who both saw Egyptians before Greek rule describe them as being similar to their southern neighbors in Africa, not to Greeks or Hebrews or Arabs or Persians.

    4. Haplogroup E1b1a

    Explain all that away.

    • Replies: @utu
    , @AP
  310. Bliss says:
    @AaronB

    I am not saying we should claim Egyptian civ is entirely or largely a creation of black Africans. No one here is saying that.

    Speak for yourself. And your “sympathy” looks very silly.

    You should instead pity the racist fools who are so invested in whitewashing history.

  311. AaronB says:

    You’re claiming Egyptian civilization is entirely the creation of sub-Saharan Africans?

    What about the Middle Eastern elements…not to mention the Russian and Scandinavian :)

    I’m trying to make everyone happy without going beyond the facts. Whites and blacks should be proud of themselves without putting each other down.

    I think one of the reasons whites are in such a mess is because they’ve lost their morality..you have the left which tries to be moral but has a very perverted form of morality, or the right which is frankly egotistical and cares only about practical considerations (Anatoly’s rationalism)..

    This is an unhealthy state of affairs.

    My sympathy is well placed.

    You blacks should establish your pride on facts, without neglecting an element of myth and poetry (crucial), but without needing to see whites as an enemy.

    I used to be in favor of universalism. Now I’m in favor of particularism within the context of universalism. Each group respects and loves itself as a group, whites, blacks, etc, but does not put down or seek enmity with other groups.

    • Replies: @Bliss
  312. Bliss says:
    @AaronB

    You’re claiming Egyptian civilization is entirely the creation of sub-Saharan Africans?

    Of course it is entirely the creation of africans: East Africans and Subsaharan Africans. Where the hell did you get the silly idea that non-africans were the main creators?

    What “middle-Eastern elements” are you talking about? The Hebrew slaves? The Hyksos, Persian, Assyrian conquerors? They didn’t create the civilization, which was already ancient when they appeared.

    • Replies: @AaronB
  313. AaronB says:
    @Bliss

    I’m sorry, I didn’t mean Middle Easterners. But aren’t North Africans genetically distinct from sub-Saharan Africans? Aren’t they Phoenician or something and very close to Middle Easterners?

    And wouldn’t you agree that this North African element played a big role in Egyptian civilization?

    • Replies: @Bliss
  314. utu says:
    @Bliss

    The definitively were not from Africa. African admixture is low. Lower than in modern Egyptians.

    By Africa we mean SS Africa. People genetically similar to SS Africans never lived in Northern Africa, including Egypt in ancient times.

    The genetic studies by Verena J. Schuenemann et al. https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms15694
    tested mummies spanning over 1300 years:

    http://bigthink.com/philip-perry/were-the-ancient-egyptians-black-or-white-scientists-now-know

    The oldest mummy sequenced was from the New Kingdom, 1,388 BCE, when Egypt was at the height of its power and glory. (Note: 200 years before birth of Ramses III)

    The youngest was from 426 CE, when the country was ruled from Rome

    “For 1,300 years, we see complete genetic continuity,” Krause said.

    “The genetics of the Abusir el-Meleq community did not undergo any major shifts during the 1,300 year timespan we studied, suggesting that the population remained genetically relatively unaffected by foreign conquest and rule.”

    One limitation according to their report, “all our genetic data were obtained from a single site in Middle Egypt and may not be representative for all of ancient Egypt.” In southern Egypt they say, the genetic makeup of the people may have been different, being closer to the interior of the continent.

    The influx of Sub-Saharan genes only occurred within the last 1,500 years. This could be attributed to the trans-Saharan slave trade or just from regular, long distance trade between the two regions.

    (1) What about Greeks? Why did you bring them up?

    (2) Semantic confusion. In what sense their language suppose to be African? What does African mean?

    Of the other Afroasiatic branches, Egyptian shows its greatest affinities with Berber,[6] Semitic and, to a lesser extent, Cushitic. (Wiki)

    (3) Matter of text interpretation and bias.

    (4) Why do you want me to repeat my arguments? Is this what they taught you in schools. To become an insolent pest? Anyway, E1b1a is paternal line perfectly consistent with low (6%) SS African admixture. Your Ramses III with E1b1a could have been only 1% or 5% SS African.

    • Replies: @Bliss
  315. AP says:
    @Bliss

    The majority of the samples are from the Greek and Roman periods.

    Yes, because the study spanned 1,800 years of time. However the study concluded that nothing changed in that time – that Egyptians before the Roman times were similar to those during. They weren’t mixing up people from all the times in order to get an average across all times, they were comparing different time periods.

    Pretty idiotic of you to keep insisting that Egyptians were from Europe not Africa based on flawed methodology.

    Did anyone claim Egyptians were “from Europe?” They were from Egypt, and they simply looked more like Europeans, as many modern Arabs do (though obviously, not Nordic European). They were a little less sub-Saharan African than are modern Egyptians.

  316. AP says:
    @Bliss

    So was Saddam Hussein also a sub-Saharan African?

  317. Bliss says:
    @utu

    The definitively were not from Africa.

    Idiot. They are located in Africa. They speak an african language. They are described by the Greeks as similar to other Africans to their south. But they are “definitively” not africans? Lol. Get your frickin head examined.

    The oldest mummy sequenced was from the New Kingdom, 1,388 BCE…..The youngest was from 426 CE, when the country was ruled from Rome

    The Pyramid of Giza and the Sphinx are well over a thousand years older than that. And Egyptian civilization is centuries older than the pyramids. This dna study basically used just 3 dubious samples from a single site 1600 years younger than the first Egyptian dynasty….and has the nerve to draw “definitive conclusions” about the “ancient Egyptians”. There is nothing ancient about their samples by Egyptian standards so how can they claim to have described the ancient Egyptians?

    Your Ramses III with E1b1a could have been only 1% or 5% SS African.

    You wish. Realistically he was more likely 100% african.

    • Replies: @Anon
    , @AP
    , @utu
  318. Dmitry says:
    @Bliss

    No – as stated in Hebrew text of the bible, King David is described as having red-hair.

    • Replies: @Bliss
  319. Bliss says:
    @AaronB

    But aren’t North Africans genetically distinct from sub-Saharan Africans? Aren’t they Phoenician or something and very close to Middle Easterners? And wouldn’t you agree that this North African element played a big role in Egyptian civilization?

    The Phoenicians were not North Africans. They were seafaring Levantines based in what is now Lebanon. They did build and settle the North African city of Carthage, in what is now Tunisia. But that does not make them North Africans (using the racial and cultural definition). They didn’t play any role, much less a “big role” in the creation of the inland riverine Egyptian civilization. Egypt was already ancient when the Phoenicians appeared on the scene.

    The definition of North Africa varies. Sometimes it includes Egypt and Sudan, sometimes it doesn’t. It makes far more sense to see Egypt, Sudan and the Horn of Africa (Ethiopia, Somalia, Eritrea) as North East Africa, based not only on geography but also on very ancient ties.

    • Replies: @AaronB
  320. Bliss says:
    @Dmitry

    No – as stated in Hebrew text of the bible, King David is described as having red-hair.

    Wrong:

    http://www.bibleodyssey.com/en/tools/ask-a-scholar/king-david

    We don’t know the exact color of David’s hair. First Samuel (1Sam 16:12 describes the young king-to-be as “reddish” or “ruddy” (compare Gen 25:25), but without making any specific reference to his hair: “He [David] was ruddy-cheeked, bright-eyed, and handsome” (Jewish Publication Society, Tanakh translation).

    David had a rare (?) ruddy complexion, but the usual black hair for jews from the Old to the New Testament.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  321. Anon[298] • Disclaimer says:
    @Bliss

    You are right. You can also be proud that SpaceX was built by an African-American. Though things are beginning to look bad for him now from what I can gather.

  322. AP says:
    @Bliss

    The Pyramid of Giza and the Sphinx are well over a thousand years older than that. And Egyptian civilization is centuries older than the pyramids. This dna study basically used just 3 dubious samples from a single site 1600 years younger than the first Egyptian dynasty

    Why dubious?

    Do you have samples older than the ones in this study that contradict the results of this study?

    The oldest sample in the study, which showed little sub-Saharan admixture, preceded known Greek and middle eastern settlement. Why do you think that an older sample would be different than the oldest one from this study?

    Is there a reason why this study’s location would have a different population than other areas of Egypt at the time?

    Your Ramses III with E1b1a could have been only 1% or 5% SS African.

    You wish. Realistically he was more likely 100% african

    As someone else pointed out, Elon Musk is 100% African. Of sub-Saharan African descent – not so much.

  323. utu says:
    @Bliss

    I wrote the following:

    The[y] definitively were not from Africa. African admixture is low. Lower than in modern Egyptians.

    By Africa we mean SS Africa. People genetically similar to SS Africans never lived in Northern Africa, including Egypt in ancient times.

    To which you responded with this:

    Idiot. They are located in Africa. They speak an african language. They are described by the Greeks as similar to other Africans to their south. But they are “definitively” not africans? Lol. Get your frickin head examined.

    Pay attention to semantics. Being located in Africa does not imply being SS African. You seem to be confused. The questions is about SS Africans not about Africans because Northern Africa is a part of Africa but people who populated it never were SS Africans, yet they can be called Africans. So what do we can from genetic studies:

    Yes, Egyptians were Africans (geographically) but they were not SS Africans.

    You want to believe that SS Africans had something in common with Ancient Egyptians. The only thing in common they had was a continent of Africa. Many arguments forwarded on your side of the fence use false semantic equivalence between African and SS African.

    Ancient Egyptians language as far as what we know from its reconstructed version has lower affinity with Cushitic than with Semitic and Berber among Afroasiatic branches. If we really knew the language and could compare it to SS African languages that existed in the past perhaps linguistic argument could be made. But because it is not the case the language argument is the weakest one and there are many counter examples that can be found where language does not imply ethnicity or culture.

    One of the samples tested by Verena J. Schuenemann et al. was 200 years older than Ramses III. E1b1a in paternal line of Ramses III does not contradict her results and is not inconsistent with her results because it is just a paternal line which tell us nothing about the percentage of admixture while it is perfectly consistent with Schuenemann results who was able to determine admixtures in terms of percentages and found that SS African admixture is lower than it is in modern Egyptians.

    • Replies: @utu
    , @Bliss
  324. utu says:
    @utu

    Here is something about how Afrocentrists like C. A. Diop misused Greek and Latin texts to serve their hypothesis.

    https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Ancient_Egyptian_race_controversy
    The “Black Egyptian hypothesis” was criticized and rejected at UNESCO’s Symposium on the Peopling of Ancient Egypt and the Deciphering of the Meroitic Script in Cairo in 1974[34] (published 1978). Afrocentrist C. A. Diop attended this symposium and when asked “what proportion of melanin was sufficient for a man to be classified as belonging to the black race” failed to provide an answer.[35]

    Regarding Greco-Roman descriptions of ancient Egyptians from classical texts, the classicist Frank M. Snowden noted how Afrocentrists commonly distort them:

    “”Diop not only distorts his classical sources but also omits references to Greek and Latin authors who specifically call attention to the physical differences between Egyptians and Ethiopians.[36]

    Historian Yaacov Shavit (2001) points out with few exceptions, the ancient Greeks and Romans described the Egyptians as not black:

    “”The evidence clearly shows that those Greco-Roman authors who refer to skin color and other physical traits distinguish sharply between Ethiopians (Nubians) and Egyptians, and rarely do they refer to the Egyptians, even though they were described as darker than themselves. No Greek doubted that the Egyptians were darker than the Greeks, but not as dark as black Africans.[37]

    Ann Macy Roth Visiting Assistant Professor of Egyptology at Howard University, Washington penned an essay to refute Afrocentric claims.[38] According to Roth, a typical Afrocentric claim is that the modern peoples in Egypt are much lighter skinned than the ancient inhabitants, an argument she rejects:

    “”I have encountered arguments that the ancient Egyptians were much ‘blacker’ than their modern counterparts, owing to the influx of Arabs at the time of the conquest, Caucasian slaves under the Mamlukes, or Turks and French soldiers during the Ottoman period. However, given the size of the Egyptian population against these comparatively minor waves of northern immigrants, as well as the fact that there was continuous immigration and occasional forced deportation of both northern and southern populations into Egypt throughout the pharaonic period, I doubt that the modern population is significantly darker or lighter, or more or less ‘African’ than their ancient counterparts.

    When these arguments were made no DNA tests yet existed. DNA tests (e.g., 2017 Nature) completely vindicates these arguments and give the coup de grâce to the Afrocentrist hypothesis. Afrocentrist C. A. Diop was wrong! And Ann Macy Roth instead of saying ‘I doubt that the modern population is significantly darker or lighter’ could state that modern population is darker than ancient population of Egypt.

    • Replies: @utu
  325. utu says:
    @utu

    This discussion with the commenter “Bliss” opened the door to the proverbial Heart of Darkness. Ignorance is dark and can be really scary when combined with insolent arrogance. The degree of scientific illiteracy is astonishing. I found this:

    Melanin, Afrocentricity, and Pseudoscience

    https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1002/ajpa.1330360604

    A component of the Afrocentric movement has incorporated a theory that black people, including ancient Egyptians, have superior men- tal, physical, and paranormal powers because they have more melanin both in their skin and in their brains. By extension it is also claimed that black people have more melatonin and P-MSH in their systems and that these compounds also contribute to the superiority of people of color over whites. In this paper, these claims are detailed and refuted. A review of the genetics and biochemistry of human pigmentation shows that all humans have sim- ilar amounts of neuromelanin (brain melanin), and that its concentration is absolutely independent of skin color; that adult humans do not synthesize b-MSH; and that human melatonin has no clearly demonstrable physiological function and no relationship to skin color. “Melanists” also distort hu- man evolution by claimingthat European whites are descendants of negroid albinos. The main problems posed by this ideological movement are that it will increase the already rampant scientific illiteracy in this country, it will contribute to further widening the gap between the races, and, most impor- tantly, it is being introduced into the public school curriculum under the guise of multicultural education.

    Blacks unfortunately are subjected to lots of pseudoscientific disinformation and preyed on by various hucksters and charlatans for various reasons. It is very sad. Should we be concerned? Can our society function when people believe in so much nonsense? Or perhaps it does not matter what Blacks do believe as they already are marginalized and their beliefs have no impact on the rest of society except. We won’t be seeing any time soon Black scientists entering the mainstream and the few that will (in hard sciences Blacks produce 10 times lower number of PhD’s than other ethnic groups) most likely will not be polluted with nonsense created for consumption among the lower strata among theme. Will there be more Black with PhD’s and ones who can engage in fact based scientific dispute? I would like to be optimistic but after watching this video I am not:

    “Debate” American Style: Our Top Orators in Action

    • Replies: @Okechukwu
  326. Dmitry says:
    @Bliss

    The Hebrew text refers to him as Red. ‘Admoni’. They believed he had red-hair.

    As for how people of Jesus’s time, or of King David’s time, looked in the region (this is before the Arab conquests).

    Well some would have looked just like Sofi Tsedaka. As Samaritans did not marry with other religions, and her family did not go anywhere since Jesus’s time.

    These are not European people, but they are not African Americans either.

    • Replies: @Bliss
    , @Bliss
  327. AaronB says:
    @Bliss

    Fair enough, but this North East African type seems a distinct ethnic type from sub-Saharan Africans.

    My own view is that ancient Egypt was a blend of this type with obvious influence and participation from sub-Saharan Africans. Like all great civilizations, it was a composite type.

    The discussion about mummies is interesting, but it obviously can’t tell us too much about the composition of the civilization as a whole, much less its influences.

    Its like if some future archeologist exhumed British viceroys of India and concluded India was a northern European civilization :)

    • Replies: @Bliss
  328. Bliss says:
    @Dmitry

    These are not European people, but they are not African Americans either.

    The Samaritans look more like the Druze than like the Israelis. Including the hats. There must be some connection there.

    If the Israelis of ancient times looked like africans the Greeks would have noted their similarity to the ancient Egyptians. They didn’t.

  329. Bliss says:
    @Dmitry

    The Hebrew text refers to him as Red. ‘Admoni’. They believed he had red-hair.

    I gave you the answer of a biblical scholar above who denies that. Here is that verse:

    Now he was ruddy, and withal of beautiful eyes, and goodly to look upon. (1Samuel 16:12)

    None of the many translations at Bible Hub describe David as red haired, for an obvious reason: the word hair is absent:

    http://biblehub.com/1_samuel/16-12.htm

    A couple translate “admoni” as dark complexion, six translate it as healthy complexion , the rest as ruddy (a word that is normally associated with a healthy reddish complexion).

    Imagining King David with red hair is wishful thinking by some people (nordicists usually, or those wanting to please them). Unfortunately for them there is no biblical basis for their imagination.

    Btw, redheads can’t tan. They burn in the sun. Not good for warriors. Very sunny in Israel…

    • Replies: @Bliss
    , @Dmitry
  330. Bliss says:
    @Bliss

    Oops, I forgot to say what that picture was all about. These are Samaritan men doing the Passover sacrifice. Don’t look like the kind of people among whom redheads are born. Another picture:

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  331. Dmitry says:
    @Bliss

    The text clearly describes him as ‘red’ – אדמוני . A simple colour word – it is not very complicated to understand.

    And it is clearly referring to hair. All Hebrew websites write that he had red hair.

    You seem to be stubbornly googling for some incompetent English translations.

    The English translation of the old bible are more or less a poetic interpretation and irrelevant.

    In Genesis 25 the same word “Admoni” appears in reference to hair colour – so obviously how the word was used in its time and as Esau is also universally interpreted.

    הראשון אדמוני כלו כאדרת שער

    • Replies: @Bliss
  332. Dmitry says:
    @Bliss

    Red hair is famously common amongst the Samaritan population.

    Here are Samaritans doing the sacrifices for passover at Mount Gerizim.

  333. Bliss says:
    @AaronB

    this North East African type seems a distinct ethnic type from sub-Saharan Africans.

    That is like saying northern Chinese are a “distinct ethnic type” from southern Chinese. They are still the same race. They are far more similar to each other than they are to caucasians. Ditto for northeast Africans and Subsaharan Africans. Ask yourself this: in America what would Ethiopians and the Ancient Egyptians (as seen in the numerous murals) be classified as? Black or White? The answer is obvious isn’t it?

    Similarly, to the ancient Greeks the Ancient Egyptians were akin to the Ethiopians and other Africans, not to the people of the Levant, Anatolia, Persia, Greece. Forget about the primitive bog people of Northern Europe, they might as well not have existed.

    Btw, the coastal Mediterranean regions of North Africa are quite distinct from the inland regions, having been settled by peoples from the northern and eastern Mediterranean rim: Phoenicians, Greeks, Romans etc. And the numerous white slaves that the muslim arab and berber pirates captured from Europe in raids that reached as far away as Ireland and Iceland. For that reason many North Africans today easily pass as whites.

    • Replies: @AaronB
  334. Bliss says:
    @Dmitry

    The text clearly describes him as ‘red’ – אדמוני . A simple colour word – it is not very complicated to understand.

    The text clearly does not mention hair. Why is that so hard for you to understand?

    David was being described as a healthy and handsome young man. In the Bible black hair is associated with youth. While the only possible instance of red hair (Esau) is associated with evil. Do you really think that verse meant to portray David as an evil Edomite? Get real.

    In Genesis 25 the same word “Admoni” appears in reference to hair colour

    In Genesis 25:25 the word “hair” appears in the same verse. In 1 Samuel 16:12 the word “hair” is conspicuous by it’s absence.

    You seem to be stubbornly googling for some incompetent English translations.

    Lol. Bible Hub (which includes the Tanakh Jewish translation quoted above) is far more competent and objective than your websites. Why don’t you link us to legitimate translations of the entire Bible, like I did?

    If anyone is being stubborn here, it’s you. The nordicist Jew.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  335. AaronB says:
    @Bliss

    Sure, that makes sense. I’m quite prepared to accept Egypt as an entirely African civilization.

    But Greeks and Germans might both be European, and both white, but they’re different enough that it’s worth pointing out.

    So say, American blacks might be closer to ancient Egyptians than say a German but they’re still different enough that’s it’s worth making distinctions. But sure, yes, they’re all Africans.

    Btw, when I went to China the first time I was somewhat startled at how the northern Chinese looked do different from the Chinese I saw in America. They’re very very different from southern Chinese.

  336. Okechukwu says:
    @AaronB

    They are trying to undermine your morale and self respect. Jews did it to them, and now white nationalists think the path back to self respect is to do it to others. It is sad. They will grow out of it in time.

    And how dumb do they have to be to believe that that would actually work? I laugh at these clowns.

    • Replies: @AaronB
  337. Okechukwu says:
    @German_reader

    Well, Okechukwu does:

    Where?

    European ascendancy has been a boon as well as a curse to mankind. Life is not a black and white proposition. All empires have been a combination of destruction and creation. Since about the Enlightenment, European science and technology have certainly taken us to heights previously unimagined. But from a historical perspective, it’s ephemeral and fleeting. It’s inevitable that others will gain ascendancy and take us to even greater heights. Or what’s more likely, given globalization and the free movement of people and information, increasingly non-Europeans will make discoveries that take humanity to even greater heights. All attempts to forestall this future are futile.

  338. Dmitry says:
    @Bliss

    In Genesis 25:25 the word “hair” appears in the same verse. In 1 Samuel 16:12 the word “hair” is conspicuous by it’s absence.

    In Hebrew, when they refer to hair colour, you don’t add an extra word for ‘hair’.

    For example, a blonde haired man is called in Modern Hebrew: “Blondini” (i.e. blond)

    A red haired person is called: “Gingi” (i.e. ginger)

    Likewise, “Admoni”.

    When the text refers to him as ‘Red-y’, it will be evidently referring to their hair. You wouldn’t call a person “red” to refer to their skin (unless they had some weird skin illness).

    David was being described as a healthy and handsome young man. In the Bible black hair is associated with youth. While the only possible instance of red hair (Esau) is associated with evil. Do you really think that verse meant to portray David as an evil Edomite? Get real.

    Association between red hair and evil did not exist in the time when these texts were written (around 600 BC). This is a much later association.

    Lol. Bible Hub (which includes the Tanakh Jewish translation quoted above) is far more competent and objective than your websites. Why don’t you link us to legitimate translations of the entire Bible, like I did?

    I simply posted the original text. And the Hebrew speakers are interpreting him as having red-hair.

    If anyone is being stubborn here, it’s you. The nordicist Jew.

    Lol almost the opposite. In fact, I know a little about the Middle East, how diverse the population is there – and happy to report many beautiful women of every different appearance.

    • Replies: @Bliss
  339. Okechukwu says:
    @AP

    Are slums of modern Nigeria better?

    Of course they are, by several orders of magnitude. I don’t think you fully appreciate the hell on earth that was the European slum.

    Are parts of Britain populated by Africans better than those populated by natives?

    Who cares? My point is that diversity and the introduction of new people and new energy is invigorating. Immigration regenerated the United States. Certainly the parts of America that were populated by immigrants weren’t “better” than those populated by the old line WASPs, but that state of affairs would vanish after a few generations.

    Are parts of modern Britain populated by Africans better now that they are populated by Africans, than when they were previously populated by natives (and not 120 years ago, but, say a decade or two prior to the arrival of the Africans)? And I don’t mean African elites.

    Being conversant with British history and as a frequent visitor to Britain, the answer is yes.

    Much better than non-diverse Burundi.

    Burundi is diverse. Diversity isn’t just a matter of skin color. Nevertheless, don’t you find it odd that citizens of the virtually all-white Eastern European nations are clamoring to flee to the more diverse Western Europe and the uber diverse United States ? They’re all learning English to make themselves viable in the west. Even the Russian nationalists on Unz all live in the west.

    https://real-estate-moscow.com/en/flat-rent

    2 bedroom apartment would be 3 rooms. As you can see, many go for $2,000+ monthly. And these are in the central, most prestigious areas.

    Check your math. If you do an average of the rents on the first page of that site you’ll see that a 2 bedroom is approximately $6,000 per month.

    Does this average include ghetto areas of LA the likes of which do not exist in Moscow?

    LOL. By that standard there are no ghettos in LA.

    But most purchases are not of imported goods. Russia makes its own food, clothes, various consumer products. Russians go to restaurants and theaters. They visit resorts in their own country. People spend more on these things, whose prices have gone down along with wages, per year than they do on imported flatscreen televisions.

    Russia spends the equivalent of 20% of its GDP on imported goods and services. There is also a thriving black market for imported goods. But locally made products are also priced higher when the ruble declines, especially those with non-Russian components. The only part of the economy that benefits from the ruble collapse is the export sector. But Russia is not a major export player beyond petroleum products and weapons.

    See my comment above. And salaries in rubles have increased, though not nearly enough to fully compensate. Average wage was 33,000 rubles in 2013 compared to 38,000 currently.

    Over the last few years, Russian GDP per capita has actually declined. And that’s if a worker actually gets paid. Wage arrears is a big problem there.

    Russian cognac and vodka is as good if not better than Western variants, at a fraction of the price. Beer is no worse. Wine is not as good.

    No doubt. In much the same way, many food items that are expensive delicacies in Russia are cheap, throw away items here. The point I was making is that you can’t gauge economic performance accurately on the basis of PPP.

    Look, you’re wasting your time trying to debate me on Russia or the Russian economy. I’m very knowledgeable on the subject, maybe more so than the Russians who spin their platitudes while ensconced in the west. Beyond an abiding interest in Russia generally (particularly Soviet-era Russia), I also have business activities there along with being overweight in Russian assets as part of my emerging markets portfolio.

  340. Okechukwu says:
    @utu

    Utu, what are you doing in America? I can tell from your prose that you’re a foreigner. Why don’t you go back to your monochromatic Eastern European homeland and make things work there? Why expose your racist sensibilities to the American melting pot, where black Americans exercise power and influence far out of proportion to their numbers?

  341. AaronB says:
    @Okechukwu

    Right, as long as you’re aware that under the guise of being objective and realistic they’re just trying to destroy your morale and self-confidence, they have no chance. And good for you.

    Its hard to watch utu and AP and the others claim to be objective while being obviously motivated by subconscious biases to undermine you and establish their superiority to blacks. When we claim we are objective all we do is lose sight of our subconscious biases

    The truth is that as biological beings struggling for survival in a hostile world we are all interested parties – none of us can be truly objective. We would have to be dead to do that. We are a bone of contention. Some of our scientific theories we know to be false, like classical mechanics, but we use them anyways because they help us survive. Philosophers have also shown that the concepts our minds use to make sense of the raw data of our senses – like time, space, and causality – either break down when applied consistently or cannot be proved. But we use them to survive anyways.

    When all you see are facts, then you lose the capacity to see the biases that go into making those facts. You reify your biases.

    Of course, there is objective data and facts – but the pictures we create with them are just as much creations of our biases. And judging and assessing these facts requires us to go beyond facts. But if you can’t do that, you live in an impoverished world.

    A researcher establishes the fact that mummies from the period when Egypt was under Greek and Roman rule have European dna. The picture we then build up out of these facts is a creation of our biases. We ignore the limited historical period or that rulers don’t necessarily represent their populations.

    Or we establish that blacks likely had some level of cultural influence on Egypt and participated in its culture, although its hard to say how much – what do you do with this fact? Do you stress it in order to give young blacks good role models to aspire to? Or do you downplay it in order to demoralize blacks and make yourself feel superior, like utu and AP and the others do?

    That requires judgement and discernment, and a scheme of values, but if you’ve trained yourself to only focus on the facts you’ll be oblivious to the way your biases inform your choices and – because judgment is inescapable – you’ll be judging while convincing yourself you’re just sticking to the facts.

    In the end, Truth is beyond the realm of facts or discursive reason, which yields only illusion.

    • Agree: Okechukwu
  342. Bliss says:
    @utu

    Being located in Africa does not imply being SS African. You seem to be confused. The questions is about SS Africans not about Africans because Northern Africa is a part of Africa but people who populated it never were SS Africans, yet they can be called Africans. So what do we can from genetic studies

    You are foolishly clinging to a single genetic study which relies on just 3 dubious samples, from just one site, from a time period starting from close to 2000 years after the beginnings of Egyptian civilization and including mostly the years when Egypt was under the rule of non-Egyptians: Assyrians, Persians, Greeks and Romans.

    Dubious because they don’t even know for sure if the 3 samples were native Egyptians. And ridiculous because their Eurocentric conclusion is contradicted by common sense and by Herodotus, Aristotle and others.

    You actually think this fundamentally flawed dna study trumps the DNA study that found the Pharaohs of the “native” Egyptian Ramesside Period to have the subsaharan african Haplogroup E1b1a?

    Btw the majority of african-americans have this Haplogroup.

    • Replies: @utu
  343. Bliss says:
    @Dmitry

    In Hebrew, when they refer to hair colour, you don’t add an extra word for ‘hair’. For example, a blonde haired man is called in Modern Hebrew: “Blondini” (i.e. blond. A red haired person is called: “Gingi” (i.e. ginger). Likewise, “Admoni”.

    That is so dumb it’s laughable. How does Modern Hebrew slang explain the meaning of an ancient verse?

    You wouldn’t call a person “red” to refer to their skin (unless they had some weird skin illness).

    That is done all the time. The word “ruddy” for example is used to refer to a healthy, outdoorsy complexion.

    I simply posted the original text. And the Hebrew speakers are interpreting him as having red-hair.

    Modern Hebrew speakers. The Bible was written aeons ago. You obviously couldn’t find a legitimate translation of the entire Torah/OT that supports your view. Don’t come back until you have.

    Association between red hair and evil did not exist in the time when these texts were written (around 600 BC). This is a much later association.

    Was Esau good or evil?

  344. utu says:
    @Bliss

    a single genetic study which relies on just 3 dubious samples

    Not 3 but over 90.

    we successfully obtained complete human mitochondrial genomes from 90 samples and genome-wide SNP data from three male individuals passing quality control.

    The 90 mitochondrial genomes were divided into three temporal groups based on radiocarbon dating. They did principal component analysis and found that:

    all three ancient Egyptian groups cluster together (Fig. 3b), supporting genetic continuity across our 1,300-year transect. Both analyses reveal higher affinities with modern populations from the Near East and the Levant compared to modern Egyptians.

    From the three individuals for which genome-wide data was obtained they were able to establish:

    “We found the ancient Egyptian samples falling distinct from modern Egyptians, and closer towards Near Eastern and European samples”.

    “that modern Egyptians inherit 8% more ancestry from African ancestors than the three ancient Egyptians do”

    “the Y-chromosome haplogroups of the three individuals for which genome-wide data was obtained, two of which could be assigned to the Middle-Eastern haplogroup J, and one to haplogroup E1b1b1 common in North Africa “

    Now your argumentum ad dubious and argumentum ad ridiculous:

    Dubious because they don’t even know for sure if the 3 samples were native Egyptians.

    Right, neither passport or green card could be located. Do you really think your argument that we do not know they were native Egyptians will fly? Try it on OJ’s jury.

    And ridiculous because their Eurocentric conclusion is contradicted by common sense and by Herodotus, Aristotle and others.

    You have a real chutzpah bringing up a common sense. C. A. Diop who started this Afrocentrist nonsense was at best sloppy if not a fraud altogether in way how he selectively quoted Herodotus, Aristotle and other classical source:

    Diop not only distorts his classical sources but also omits references to Greek and Latin authors who specifically call attention to the physical differences between Egyptians and Ethiopians.

    The evidence clearly shows that those Greco-Roman authors who refer to skin color and other physical traits distinguish sharply between Ethiopians (Nubians) and Egyptians, and rarely do they refer to the Egyptians, even though they were described as darker than themselves. No Greek doubted that the Egyptians were darker than the Greeks, but not as dark as black Africans.

    Now this E1b1a:

    You actually think this fundamentally flawed dna study trumps the DNA study that found the Pharaohs of the “native” Egyptian Ramesside Period to have the subsaharan african Haplogroup E1b1a?

    Not just I but everybody. (1) As I said before there is no trumping needed because this one case of E1b1a, if credible, is consistent with low admixture of SS African found in ancient sample. (2), Not plural ‘Pharaohs’ but only one Ramses III. The paper it was reported in has not been cited with respect to this finding which leads me to believe that it is not being taken seriously for whatever reason. (3) 200 year older mummy than that of Ramses III was found to have only low percent admixture of SS African and did not have SS African E1b1a but Middle Easter or North African haplogroups.

    • Replies: @utu
    , @Bliss
  345. utu says:
    @utu

    Why nobody cites paper that found E1b1a in Ramses III? Paper has citations but no citations about its DNA finding. Why nobody pays attention to the result which is already 6 years old. In the paper:

    BMJ. 2012 Dec 14;345:e8268. doi: 10.1136/bmj.e8268.
    Revisiting the harem conspiracy and death of Ramesses III: anthropological, forensic, radiological, and genetic study.

    Hawass Z, Ismail S, Selim A, Saleem SN, Fathalla D, Wasef S, Gad AZ, Saad R, Fares S, Amer H, Gostner P, Gad YZ, Pusch CM, Zink AR.

    the haplogroup finding was incidental. They were not after DNA. They wanted to solve the murder hypothesis. For this purpose they wanted to establish if the second mummy was a son of Ramses III. They confirmed it and in the process found E1b1a, however they did not report anything about the method and accuracy of this finding.

    Anyway, Wiki page

    DNA history of Egypt

    https://https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DNA_history_of_Egypt

    does not mention this finding. Schuenemann et al. (2017) also does not mention it. However looking at the supplemental material of their paper I found reviews by anonymous reviewers and responses by Schuenemann et al. which may explain why Hawass et al. (2012) is ignored. They were asked about older results though not mentioning Hawasss specifically, and Schuenemann et al. had this to say:

    https://media.nature.com/original/nature-assets/ncomms/2017/170530/ncomms15694/extref/ncomms15694-s7.pdf

    Many of the studies of Egyptian remains were conducted in the classical ‘PCR era of ancient DNA’, a technique which favors intact DNA molecules and is thus prone to modern human DNA contamination. It furthermore does not allow to study DNA damage patterns, that were found to be among the most reliable criteria for ancient DNA authenticity (Stoneking & Krause 2011). It is well known that the length of ancient DNA molecules is around 50bp and the overall amount of DNA damage roughly correlates with (thermal) age (Matthew Collins, Susanna Sawyer etc…), which makes STR profiling (up to 350 bp!) rather difficult. NGS techniques have the advantage to utilise the large number of independent DNA fragments (usually not accessible to PCR) in order to study contamination. Further, many previous studies have used muscle tissue, which we clearly show to be the least promising/appropriate material when studying ancient DNA. We expanded our discussion on preservation conditions and previous work in the introduction (lines: 84-105), however much of this debate can be found in Lorenzen et al. 2010 and was not repeated here.

    Most likely Hawass et al. (2012) result about E1b1a haplogroup can’t be trusted and that’s why nobody cites it. In other words

    E1b1a of Ramses III is not a big news in scientific world because it is fake news

  346. Bliss says:
    @utu

    Not plural ‘Pharaohs’ but only one Ramses III.

    What a moron. If you know the Y-DNA Haplogroup of one Pharaoh in a Dynasty you know it for them all.

    200 year older mummy than that of Ramses III was found to have only low percent admixture of SS African and did not have SS African E1b1a but Middle Easter or North African haplogroups.

    That middle-eastern J Haplogroup is most common in Yemen to the south of Egypt. The “North African” e1b1b Haplogroup is most common in Somalia to the south. So, what was your point?

    how he selectively quoted Herodotus, Aristotle and other classical source

    Some of the quotes from Herodotus and Aristotle, are on this page. They both saw the ancient Egyptians as an african race. Why would they lie?

    I challenge you to show us quotes from similar sources from similarly ancient times that say the Ancient Egyptians looked like Europeans. Good luck googling….

    • Replies: @utu
  347. utu says:
    @Bliss

    What a moron. If you know the Y-DNA Haplogroup of one Pharaoh in a Dynasty you know it for them all.

    If one of the Queens there was more like a Welfare Queen then anything is possible. She herself may not be sure who was the father. We do not know what was going on in the Pharaoh’s court. Pretty ugly competition within family and courtiers. The fate of Ramses III is a good example of it. One of his wife was implicate in his murder. Furthermore the continuity in Y-DNA is not 100%. Then it is just a paternal line. Ramses III like everybody had 4 g-parents and 8 gg-parents and so on and it was them who determine his skin color and ethnicity not just one Y haplogroup marker. If this marker was found in other Egyptian mummies this would be more significant. But so far there is only one hit which unfortunately is questionable because of methodology used by Hawass et al. (2012). See my comment #350. Nobody cites Hawass’s result as it is considered not credible and the character Zahi Hawass has pretty awful reputation (see wiki on him). This business with Ramses III and E1b1a is pretty much a case of fake news that spread among Afrocentrist circles like yourself who eat up everything and anything that confirms their prejudice and bias. Among reputable scientists it was disregarded.

    That middle-eastern J Haplogroup is most common in Yemen to the south of Egypt. The “North African” e1b1b Haplogroup is most common in Somalia to the south. So, what was your point?

    The haplogroups had to begin somewhere. In case of these two it is believed that 20,000 years or so ago they were in the regions indicated. But they are considered to be Middle Eastern and North African not SS African for populations in last several thousands of years.

    They both saw the ancient Egyptians as an african race. Why would they lie?

    Lying and not lying is the only dichotomy you can think of. Probably you read NT+OT literally as well and King James version only as the translation was supervised by G_d himself, right? Are you that primitive or pretending to be one as your rhetorical stratagem? You are either not too smart or you are dishonest.

    I challenge you to show us quotes from similar sources from similarly ancient times that say the Ancient Egyptians looked like Europeans. Good luck googling….

    I won’t be googling. Interned is polluted with nonsense spread by ignorant Afrocentrists like yourself. But you can find scientific publications where your claims were debunked and examples of selective quotes form ancient text by Afrocentrists are exposed. Look up: Keita, S.O.Y. (1993). “Black Athena: ‘Race,’ Bernal and Snowden”. Arethusa Furthermore it is not about them looking or not looking European. The point is about them not looking SS African. Bringing up European is a strawman. You are no having this discussion with some Eurocentric nut. If I met one I would argue with him just as I argue with you. Ignorant nuts are my specialty. I still believe that some can saved so I give them my time. For me both Afrocentric and Eurocentric nuts are nuts. For some reason I do not see much evidence for Eurocentric nuts existence on internet. You can congratulate yourself that as far as internet goes the Afrocentric nuts won the battle with the Eurocentric nuts. You have defeated the strawman you have created in your paranoid imagination. He never showed up. But your nonsense will not fly. It has been rejected and refuted by the main stream reputable science. You have been relegated to the la-la land of obscurantist ghetto where you can enjoy having stimulating conversations with the flat-earthers.

    • Replies: @Bliss
  348. Bliss says:
    @utu

    If one of the Queens there was more like a Welfare Queen then anything is possible.

    Sure, “anything is possible” is what you are left with when your stupid BS cannot be rationally defended.

    Lying and not lying is the only dichotomy you can think of. Probably you read NT+OT literally as well and King James version only as the translation was supervised by G_d himself, right?

    Huh? That is not an answer to my very simple question: what possible reason could there be for Aristotle and Herodotus to lie about the physical appearance of the Ancient Egyptians? Well?

    I won’t be googling. Interned is polluted with nonsense

    Who are you kidding? You are too obsessed with this topic to miss a chance to show me up. You just couldn’t find a quote to support your claim that the Ancient Egyptians looked like Europeans. But you are too dishonest a weasel to admit it.

    Furthermore it is not about them looking or not looking European.

    Your only real point in this debate is that DNA study which reached the conclusion that the Ancient Egyptians were closest to Europeans genetically. If that’s the case why did Herodotus and Aristotle, who actually eyeballed Egyptians, compare them to Ethiopians?

    By the way, Herodotus and other Greeks used the word “Ethiopian” to mean the people south of Egypt, with what is now Sudan being the prime example.

    • Replies: @Bliss
  349. Bliss says:
    @Bliss

    Speaking of Ethiopians and Greeks:

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memnon_(mythology)

    In Greek mythology, Memnon (/ˈmɛmnən/; Ancient Greek: Μέμνων) was an Ethiopian king and son of Tithonus and Eos. As a warrior he was considered to be almost Achilles’ equal in skill. During the Trojan War, he brought an army to Troy’s defense and had killed Antilochus during a fierce battle. The death of Memnon echoes that of Hector, another defender of Troy whom Achilles also killed out of revenge for a fallen comrade, Patroclus.

    After Memnon’s death, Zeus was moved by Eos’ tears and granted him immortality. Memnon’s death is related at length in the lost epic Aethiopis, composed after The Iliad circa the 7th century BCE. Quintus of Smyrna records Memnon’s death in Posthomerica. His death is also described in Philostratus’ Imagines.

    Herodotus called Susa “the city of Memnon,”[4] Herodotus describes two tall statues with Egyptian and Ethiopian dress that some, he says, identify as Memnon; he disagrees, having previously stated that he believes it to be Sesostris.[5] One of the statues was on the road from Smyrna to Sardis.[6] Herodotus described a carved figure matching this description near the old road from Smyrna to Sardis.[7]

    Pausanias describes how he marveled at a colossal statue in Egypt, having been told that Memnon began his travels in Africa:

    According to Manetho Memnon and the 8th Pharaoh of the 18th dynasty Amenophis was one and the same king.[10]

    • Replies: @Bliss
  350. Bliss says:
    @Bliss

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colossi_of_Memnon

    The Colossi of Memnon (Arabic: el-Colossat or es-Salamat) are two massive stone statues of the Pharaoh Amenhotep III, who reigned in Egypt during the Dynasty XVIII. For the past 3,400 years (since 1350 BC), they have stood in the Theban Necropolis, located west of the River Nile from the modern city of Luxor.[1][2]

    Memnon was a hero of the Trojan War, a King of Ethiopia who led his armies from Africa into Asia Minor to help defend the beleaguered city but was ultimately slain by Achilles. Memnon (whose name means “the Steadfast” or “Resolute”[3]) was said to be the son of Eos, the goddess of dawn.[4] He was associated with colossi built several centuries earlier, because of the reported cry at dawn of the northern statue (see below), which became known as the Colossus of Memnon. Eventually, the entire Theban Necropolis became generally referred to as the Memnonium[5] making him “Ruler of the west” as in the case of the god Osiris who was called chief of the west.

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