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The dawn of Russia’s era of mass restaurant outings – which began in the early 2000s, in line with an unprecedented expansion in Russian personal prosperity – was dominated by sushi.

But when I returned in 2016, it was already clear that era was in decline. Sure, there were – and are – still plenty of lower range Sushi Shops and Sushi Sets, and upper range Yakitoriyas and Tanukis. But they are no longer anywhere near as prominent as they once were.

A recent article in Kommersant confirmed this impression. The percentage of restaurants in Moscow and SPB offering sushi on their menu reached an all time peak in 2012, but has plummeted since. By 2018, only 3% of restaurants in Moscow were Japanese-themed.

What replaced them? BURGERS. As of today, every tenth restaurant order in Moscow – and every second fast food order – features that iconic American sandwich. This correlates with personal observations. As in the West, the mainstays are McDonald’s and Burger Kings – which, incidentally, tend to be nicer in Russia than in the US. But the streets are jam-packed with all sorts of Burger Heroes and Burger Brothers and Black Star Burgers (this latter one founded by the rapper Timati), in a wide variety of styles from cheese and meat filled monstrosities to ketogenic “fitness” burgers.

Does this mean sushi has vanished from Russia?

No, not really. Just within the slightly more than two years I have been here, there has been a massive boom in food home delivery. Young people with massive, rectangular backpacks with the logo of “Yandex Food” or “Delivery Club” are now a very common site in the metro, replacing the punks, emos, and goths that were previously associated with that age cohort in less straitlaced and work-oriented eras. Around 7% of the catering sector now accrues to food delivery (compared to 8% in China and 3% in the US), of which Internet orders account for 53%. In turn, sushi orders account for around half of all orders with Delivery Club.

So instead of going to eat sushi at a restaurant, it has become something that people order to their house, like pizza (or make themselves).

Otherwise, fast food is dominated by burgers (with Russian chains like Teremok or Kroshka Kartoshka playing a decidedly secondary role), while proper restaurants increasingly need to provide a more unique or compelling vision to stand out.

 
• Category: Economics • Tags: Food, Japan, Moscow, Russia 
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  1. Serrice says: • Website

    When I was in Moscow I was seriously impressed by fast food in the city centre, including Russian chains. The restaurants were clean, food was tasty, service was civil, and the patrons were decidedly normal.

    Compared to fast food in Dublin, where such ‘restaurants’ are the home of vagrants and migrants and therefore filthy. They also have to employ security as soon as the sun goes down.

  2. Mr. Hack says:

    Although burgers are great, they really got nothing whatsoever on an onion and garlic infused котлета! The best ones are made of both ground pork and ground beef – the best of both worlds. Slice one in two and put it atop a slice of good rye bread (instead of the cottony hamburger bun) and you’re on your way. With a bowl of borshch on the side, you wont even miss the fries…

    • Replies: @Mikhail
  3. Mikhail says: • Website
    @Mr. Hack

    A subject that you provide quality input.

    Same goes for beef and pork kielbasa over the just beef variant. One reason why I’m no fan of kosher salami and baloney. On the other hand, quality all beef hotdogs are good.

    Beets have definite health benefits.

    • Agree: Mr. Hack
    • Replies: @anon
    , @Mr. Hack
  4. anon[211] • Disclaimer says:
    @Mikhail

    do you two retards have like a schedule of when you start being retards to each other?

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    , @Mikhail
    , @22pp22
  5. Mr. Hack says:
    @Mikhail

    Well, we finally agree on something here. And I strongly feel that I should be allotted a gold star here for pointing out to you Russophiles that Ivan Bohun, the inveterate Polonophobe, ended his blazing and quite successful military career on the side of the Moskali. Could this be the beginning of a new detente? – nah, let’s not get carried away! 🙂

  6. Mr. Hack says:
    @anon

    And what have you added to the common discourse here to be so condescending? A much greater contributor to the common good here than you, Thorfinnsson, seems to be missing in action for quite a while now. I hope it’s nothing more serious than another frivolous love affair?…

  7. Dmitry says:

    he mainstays are McDonald’s …tend to be nicer in Russia

    I’m happy to see Karlin’s attitude to McDonald’s has become more positive.

    Although I don’t like to eat in McDonald’s, it is evident a lack of admiration for it is usually symptom of primitivism.

    Even for leadership in the USSR, McDonald’s seemed to achieve a dream of developed socialism. Rationalization of preferences of the consumers to the level of universally repeatable sequences of lego blocks, which according to their arrangement construct various types of ‘food’ (sometimes resembling hamburgers).

    McDonald’s Corporation was stagnating a bit. But it seems to be improving again recently, with the touchscreen system allowing progression towards more automation and smaller workforce.

    And it is easy to see potential McDonald’s to continue improving. If deregulation can allow the use of more genetically engineered ingredients. Deregulation and legal liberalization could also allow reintroduction of coca extract into the Coca Cola. Beef could soon be created artificially in vats (saving cows).

  8. Dmitry says:
    @Dmitry

    Oops, some mistakes from typing on the phone…

    And it is easy to see potential McDonald’s to continue improving.

    And it is easy to see the potential of McDonald’s to continue improving.

    Although I don’t like to eat in McDonald’s, it is evident a lack of admiration for it is usually symptom of primitivism.

    It is evident a lack of admiration for it is usually a symptom of primitivism.

  9. Mr. Hack says:
    @Dmitry

    It used to be that the only two (really big) players in the US market were McDonalds and Burger King. For many years, I think that McDonalds held a slight edge in loyalty due to its superior french fries. Once Burger King learned to improve the quality of their fries, and because of their better tasting burgers, I think that it’s a closer race now. In the meantime, many new large Burger franchises have infiltrated the market, carving up the burger devotee fan base even more. My favorite chain outlet is now Carl’s Junior with their superior tasting beef burgers. For a blast to the past, in the West, Sonic Burgers is an occasional treat. Great drinks, milkshakes etc; accompany their tasty burgers on Texas toast.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    , @Mikhail
  10. @Dmitry

    Although I don’t like to eat in McDonald’s, it is evident a lack of admiration for it is usually symptom of primitivism.

    Why?

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  11. Dmitry says:
    @Hyperborean

    It’s common for simple people to attack McDonald’s because ‘it’s not natural’, ‘American’ and ‘doesn’t taste very delicious’ .

    But another people can see McDonald’s has (or had) real innovative intelligence, where it is evident that almost everything that happens there is a result of careful thought and logic.

    From method of the “food” is packaged into separate cardboard containers, to its lego style construction from a limited set of ingredients which eliminates the need for “skill” from its chefs, to the introduction of variety in the accessorization of the “meals”. Even the palate of the “food” itself is something very innovative (and especially in combination with Coca Cola) – it tastes like nothing you could cook at home or which people eat before historically. Moreover, on a logistics and management level, it is probably even cleverer than we customers realize.

    That’s not saying that the food is actually very edible (I don’t really like it unless quite drunk or hungry).

    But anyone who appreciates logic, innovation, or solution of logistical problems, would be impressed by them. And this was the situation in the Soviet times – they were so impressed really, they tried to establish MacDonald’s in USSR already in the 1970s.. It’s popularly associated with the final years, but the unsuccessful attempts to establish McDonald’s began in the 1970s, as a result of the exposure of government officials to it when they visited America.

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
  12. Dmitry says:
    @Mr. Hack

    Last time I was in America, I went to In-N-Out – it was maybe ok. The hamburger in my hotel restaurant was better though.

    The best hamburger I ever had was in a restaurant in Northern Spain… I can’t remember the name though.

    • Replies: @Rosie
  13. Mr. Hack says:

    ‘In-N-Out has a very loyal following of devotees here, but like you, I’m not totally impressed.

    • Replies: @AquariusAnon
  14. Mikhail says: • Website
    @Mr. Hack

    The BK Whopper is too bready IMO. In comparison, the McD 1/4 pounder is meatier and IMO better tasting than the Big Mac and Whopper.

    As for all the burger chains, I’ve yet to find one that beats a quality diner burger. A homemade burger can be quite tastey if done right with quality meat (fresh and with the right mix of fat). I like to pre-mix such with an egg and ketchup for anywhere between 2 and a half and 4 pounds of chopped meat.

    If not on the grill, olive oil pan cooked with some soy sauce put on each side of the burger as it’s being cooked.

    For health reasons, it’s important to freeze the uncooked leftovers relatively soon.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  15. melanf says:

    Otherwise, fast food is dominated by burgers

    Fast Food in Russia really dominated by Shaverma

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  16. @Mr. Hack

    McDonald’s burgers are disgusting. Especially their Fish-O-Filets.

    Five Guys is pretty good. They give you a ton of fries and free peanuts.

    Can’t go wrong with Chick-Fil-A, but occasionally their chicken can be a tad too chewy/dry, and their ice cream sucks.

    For best ice cream, I’d give a nod to Cookout. Most of their 40+ flavors are good. Cookout burgers are too greasy though. Their best food is the hushpuppies.

    Best burgers and fries would be Shake Shack hands down.

    I’m not sure if Hattie B’s is considered fast food, but I can totally vouch for them, minus their excessive lines.

    • Replies: @AP
  17. Also, I noticed pretty much all the SWPL places serve burgers, and they don’t really serve Russian cuisine at all.

    To find a good sit-down Russian cuisine restaurant in the center of Moscow, we ended up going to a high end, likely Sovok, place, that somehow charges an automatic 18% service charge while providing horrendous service. You know its Sovok when half the patrons there look like Poroshenko clones wearing suits.

  18. melanf says:

    And it is easy to see the potential of McDonald’s to continue improving.

    Why do we need McDonald’s? In Russia, I’m spared the need to visit this disgusting canteen (because I know where to eat normally), but when I was in Germany, it was found that eating in expensive restaurants is cheaper than eating at McDonald’s.

    For a family of three to eat at McDonald’s cost 16 euros (tasteless food, and hunger after half an hour). In Aachen in a Chinese restaurant for 25 euros we got a huge delicious Dinner (which we could not finish).

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    , @AquariusAnon
  19. utu says:
    @Dmitry

    McDonald’s seemed to achieve a dream of developed socialism

    Very good point. In Soviet Block they tried to manage restaurants by central planing and menus for restaurants was designed somewhere in Moscow or Warsaw or Prague, so all restaurants served the same menu from Minsk to Vladivostok in the USSR. But it was the American capitalism and free enterprise that accomplished the dream of this gleichschaltung and uravnilovka successfully, meaning that people accepted and got acculturated to it w/o objectors.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  20. Mr. Hack says:
    @melanf

    Shaverma looks like a good old fashioned burrito here in the SouthWest. Some are great – some are so, so. I look to buy them where the local Mexicans buy them – the homogenized ones to be purchased at hamburger joints are the so, so ones. Shaverma – Georgian?

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
  21. Mr. Hack says:
    @Mikhail

    I like ketchup, but putting it into your prepared hamburger meat? I do something similar, with a few good swigs of Lea & Perins Worcestershire sauce. The stuff was made to be used with beef, IMO.

    Don’t use the Worstershire substitutes for Lea & Perrins!

    • Replies: @Mikhail
  22. Dmitry says:
    @melanf

    I agree McDonald’s “food” is a bit inedible. Obviously your Chinese restaurant looks much more tasty. (Only until I was about 17 years old, I liked McDonald’s.)

    But McDonald’s as a corporation – is in its history – is extremely innovative and clever. It is admirable as learning about a well organized military operation, or about the organization and planning for a Toyota car factory. You can admire the peoples’ ingenuity to design this system.

    • Replies: @AP
    , @dfordoom
  23. how long until pizza shows up?

  24. Dmitry says:
    @utu

    Gorbachev in Washington DC was amazed the variety of different kinds of restaurants. He couldn’t imagine the logistical and organizational complexity of the Americans, to somehow supply so many different kinds of cuisine.

    It could be that Gorbachev is a village fool. But the fact we “spontaneously” coordinate more complex and efficient systems than we could possibly plan – is one of the empirical, but not intuitively knowable, facts about ourselves.

    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
  25. AP says:
    @AquariusAnon

    In n Out is excellent, but only available in California, the desert Southwest, and Texas.

    • Replies: @AquariusAnon
  26. AP says:

    Interesting article. I’ve noticed that guests from Russia have recently been requesting to be taken to the best burger places. This would explain that.

    I go to Georgian restaurants in Moscow. Ironically this is a Sovok phenomenon, but Georgian food is one of the few types of food one cannot find much of in the USA. Burgers, sushi etc. are better at home, why go to such places in Moscow?

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  27. Dmitry says:
    @AP

    Why is Georgian food a “Sovok phenomenon”?

    I think Georgians have been eating well for centuries, and reflects their native ingredients and tastes combined with the wider Caucasian influences.

    Although people say it is better to eat it in Georgia (and also cheaper). (I have not been to Georgia though).

    • Replies: @AP
    , @Anatoly Karlin
  28. AP says:
    @Dmitry

    I think AK explained that in Soviet times, Georgian food was one of the only “exotic” food available to Russians, so going to a Georgian restaurant was the thing to do for Soviets seeking something different. Now they can do Indian, sushi, burgers, etc.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  29. AP says:
    @Dmitry

    I suspect that in the 1950s and 1960s, purely due to lack of technology, McDonalds was probably rather good.

  30. Dmitry says:
    @AP

    Yes how they opened the prestigious Georgians restaurants in Moscow already in the 1930s – because there were many Georgians in high political positions who wanted to eat their native cuisine.

    But Georgian food predates the USSR, just as Chinese food predates Communist Party of China. And postdates it as well – it’s today fashionable all over the world.

    Georgian bars are also spreading in some places.

    • Agree: AP
  31. 22pp22 says:
    @anon

    A nasty, pointless comment.

  32. dfordoom says: • Website
    @AquariusAnon

    Also, I noticed pretty much all the SWPL places serve burgers, and they don’t really serve Russian cuisine at all.

    Back in the 70s leftists used to call that cultural imperialism. They thought that in the long run it was the worst kind of imperialism. Destroy a person’s culture and you’ve destroyed the person. The leftists were of course absolutely correct.

    One world. One culture. One belief system. We are Borg.

  33. dfordoom says: • Website
    @Dmitry

    But McDonald’s as a corporation – is in its history – is extremely innovative and clever. It is admirable as learning about a well organized military operation, or about the organization and planning for a Toyota car factory. You can admire the peoples’ ingenuity to design this system.

    It’s brilliant. They have trained people to want to eat tasteless inedible food.

    Consuming is what matters. It doesn’t matter what it is that you consume. It doesn’t matter if you enjoy it. Consuming is good in and of itself. The most important thing is to want to consume what everybody else is consuming. And of course we must all consume what the Americans consume, because Americans are right about everything.

    What I object to in McDonalds is what I object to in Hollywood – the contempt for the customer.

  34. @Dmitry

    From a managerial point of view it is an impressive Henry Ford-like accomplishment. But I think people would rather evaluate McDonald’s from an epicurean perspective, and by that measurement, as you admit, the food is not really that appealing.

    I see your point, though I think one has to belong to a former Eastern Bloc nation to appreciate it.

  35. Rosie says:
    @Dmitry

    Last time I was in America, I went to In-N-Out – it was maybe ok. The hamburger in my hotel restaurant was better though.

    In-N-Out is a seriously overrated burger. I agree with Mr. Hack. Sonic is phenomenal.

    • Replies: @AP
    , @Mr. Hack
  36. @AP

    All places in the US I have zero interest whatsoever in living in. So you can have your In-N-Out.

    For regional fast food chains, I’ll stick to Hattie B’s. I wonder if AnonFromTN can chime in.

    • Replies: @AP
  37. @Mr. Hack

    Shaverma – Georgian?

    Shawarma is a general Middle Eastern dish. They are present in most places in Europe.

  38. @melanf

    This Chinese restaurant definitely looks decent, especially for one that’s located in a small city in the West like Aachen.

    Moscow’s Chinese food is quite lacking. Either they’re far too westernized with Central Asian cooks who have no clue what they’re doing, or they are authentic but use low quality ingredients that cater towards those bus tour groups or hungry and poor Chinese students studying at MGU.

    • Agree: Anatoly Karlin
  39. AP says:
    @AquariusAnon

    All places in the US I have zero interest whatsoever in living in. So you can have your In-N-Out.

    Some of these places are certainly worth visiting and when doing so, In N Out is great when fast food is necessary.

    • Replies: @AquariusAnon
  40. AP says:
    @Rosie

    In-N-Out is a seriously overrated burger. I agree with Mr. Hack. Sonic is phenomenal.

    It’s fast food, not something fancy. For what it is, it is very good.

    Sonic, Burger King, and Carl’s Jr. are basically the same. McDonald’s is a step down from them. (granted, it has been years since I have had any of these, perhaps they have improved or some have gotten better than others). In-N-Out is much better.

    Obviously there are now fashionable burger places where burgers are better, cost over $10, and take time to be made. Those are not fast food.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    , @Mikhail
  41. Mr. Hack says:
    @Rosie

    A potpourri of classic Sonic TV commercials. Almost as good as their lime aide cherry drinks and yummy tater tots. I think you know what I mean:

  42. Mr. Hack says:
    @AP

    Thank god for the free market system: so many choices to accommodate so many consumers and differing tastes:

    на вкус и цвет товарища нет

    🙂

    • Agree: Dmitry
  43. melanf says:
    @AquariusAnon

    Also, I noticed pretty much all the SWPL places serve burgers, and they don’t really serve Russian cuisine at all.

    In St. Petersburg, fast food with Russian food is quite common.
    This network where they cook dumplings, Пельменная №…
    crumpets, (Пышечные)

    pies
    and a network ” Столовая №..”

    It is curious that аccording to my observations, there are many cafes with national cuisine in Hungary and the Czech Republic, but very few such cafes in Germany.

    • Replies: @jbwilson24
  44. How much do you get paid for alerting us to this extremely important newsflash?

    AK: I just got a bonus for banning you.

  45. Mikhail says: • Website
    @AP

    Sonic, Burger King, and Carl’s Jr. are basically the same. McDonald’s is a step down from them. (granted, it has been years since I have had any of these, perhaps they have improved or some have gotten better than others).

    Over the past few decades, BK and McD have been on par with each other. The other two you mention might be a step up, based on what I’ve heard (haven’t yet been to Sonic and Carl’s).

    A step down from BK and McD:

    https://www.whitecastle.com/

    Friendly’s isn’t so much known as a burger joint as the others in this note. More like a lower grade diner, along the lines of what Howard Johnson’s had been.

    https://www.friendlysrestaurants.com/menu/

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  46. @AP

    Lol, California is a neoliberalism.txt shithole bordering on Communism. Arizona and Texas while saner, are sprawled out, cultureless, Mexican-influenced messes.

    Nothing in the US can compare to Russia or China, but for the US specifically, I’m sticking to the South.

    Its not surprising at all that a svidomist would be such a big supporter of Californian culture. I’ve always thought that svidomy is just a part of neoliberalism.txt, and all this just confirmed that.

    • Replies: @AP
  47. @AquariusAnon

    I would suggest Mari Vanna for. It doesn’t really have anything to write home about, but it’s very Russia-kitschy, not super expensive, has all the traditional Russian dishes, and is in central Moscow.

    It also has one or two locations in London, though it’s twice as expensive there.

  48. @Dmitry

    In Cohen’s Soviet Fates and Lost Alternatives, he recounts a visit by Egor Ligachev to New York, in which he amazed his interlocutors by repeatedly asking who was responsible for organizing the food supply to the city. Really opens one eyes to how the late USSR was run by hopelessly deluded fogies.

    • Replies: @inertial
  49. @Dmitry

    What AP said: http://www.unz.com/akarlin/armenia-update/#comment-2300930

    Georgian restaurants in the USSR played the role of French restaurants in the US, as the elite place to go to place for status signalling purposes. Only French cuisine really is world class, whereas Georgian cuisine isn’t (same for the wines). Now that there are mid-range Georgian establishments, the older Soviet people like to frequent them, since they continue to regard them as prestigious, even though there are no end of much cheaper (and better) restaurants and eateries.

    But to add to that, the Soviet association means they have a base of loyal customers so the price to quality/service ratio is much worse.

    • Replies: @inertial
  50. Unpopular viewpoint:

    Fast food is objectively delicious (and McDonald’s, being the most successful fast food chain, is more delicious than most). Some of the world’s best food scientists have invested decades of work in optimizing for taste, price, and speed of cooking – and consumers have voted with their stomachs. Even in Russia, if you go to a mall, it will be the McDonald’s that is going to be reliably packed, with 2-3x fewer people milling about the Burger King and the KFC, even fewer people at the Teremok (a high quality Russian fast food chain that specializes in bliny), and the Kroshka Kartoshka almost deserted (a lower quality Russian fast food chain centering around potato dishes).

  51. melanf says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    Fast food is objectively delicious (and McDonald’s, being the most successful fast food chain, is more delicious than most)…Even in Russia, if you go to a mall, it will be the McDonald’s that is going to be reliably packed, with 2-3x fewer people milling about the Burger King and the KFC, even fewer people at the Teremok (a high quality Russian fast food chain that specializes in bliny)

    From this point of view, shaverma and belyash (most successful fast food, more successful them McDonald’s ) is the top of the world cuisine

  52. @Anatoly Karlin

    Some of the world’s best food scientists have invested decades of work in optimizing for taste, price, and speed of cooking – and consumers have voted with their stomachs.

    As with most things involving large groups of people – literature, music, etc. – the lowest common denominator can easily come to prevail.

  53. Mr. Hack says:
    @Mikhail

    IMHO, if you just compare the quality of the hamburger meat, Carl’s Jr. sits at the top of the burger pyramid. Their $6.00 burger for $3.00 is hard to beat. They were the first ones to feature angus beef on their menus and even have a natural beef patty minus any steroids or hormones. It’s hard to believe they don’t exist in the New York area:

    As of 2017, CKE (the parent company of Carl’s Jr. and Hardee’s) has a total of 3,665 franchised or company-operated restaurants in 44 states and 39 foreign countries and U.S. territories. Outside of the U.S., Carls Jr. is currently present in Australia, Belarus, Brazil, Cambodia, Canada, Chile, China, Colombia, Costa Rica, Denmark, Dominican Republic, Ecuador, France, Guatemala, Honduras, India, Indonesia, Japan, Malaysia, Mexico, New Zealand, Nicaragua, Panama, Russia, Singapore, Spain, Thailand, Turkey, and Vietnam.[14]

  54. AP says:
    @AquariusAnon

    Its not surprising at all that a svidomist would be such a big supporter of Californian culture.

    What in my comment ever gave you the idea that I support “California culture?” The CA coastline s a beautiful place to visit, as are towns along the coast such as Santa Barbara (I have never liked SF, too dirty cold and full of homeless though) and even San Diego. Arizona, Utah and Nevada have spectacular nature. I have been the desert in Azerbaijan and while impressive and pretty, it still is not as much so as places in the American Southwest.

    I’ve always thought that svidomy is just a part of neoliberalism.txt, and all this just confirmed that.

    You clearly have some problems if you leap from “CA and the Southwest are worth visiting” to “a big supporter of California culture” to “therefore Ukrainian or Baltics or whatever national identity is neoliberalism.txt.”

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  55. AP says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    Fast food is objectively delicious (and McDonald’s, being the most successful fast food chain, is more delicious than most). Some of the world’s best food scientists have invested decades of work in optimizing for taste, price, and speed of cooking – and consumers have voted with their stomachs.

    As others have pointed out, popularity among masses just means lowest common denominator. The formula for the masses with respect to fast food seems to be – the cheapest possible, that is still (barely) edible, that can be made to the same consistent quality anywhere. McDonald’s has brilliantly found this sweet spot and has made a fortune.

    it will be the McDonald’s that is going to be reliably packed, with 2-3x fewer people milling about the Burger King and the KFC, even fewer people at the Teremok (a high quality Russian fast food chain that specializes in bliny), and the Kroshka Kartoshka almost deserted (a lower quality Russian fast food chain centering around potato dishes).

    I was always brave enough to eat the pyrozhki (with apples, raspberries or whatever) they sold in passageways or metro stations, the dough was very good. Teremok was the only fast food I would eat in Moscow. I tried Kroshka Kartoshka once and it was rather disgusting. Since Georgian is something I only have a chance to eat in Russia (although Kiev has a very good Georgian restaurant near the university, but I go to Ukraine less frequently) when I don’t eat my mother-in-law’s homemade pelmeny that is what I eat in Moscow.

    Otherwise –

    Sushi – better in CA, northeastern USA and Canada (especially Montreal, oddly it is as good there as in Vancouver)

    Burgers, steaks, Chinese, Thai – better in USA

    Cakes, pastries – I’ve had really great ones from Yeliseyevsky on Tverskaya. Fortunately a 2 minute walk from my wife’s flat. Otherwise quality seems to have gone almost down to American standards in Moscow. Lviv is better (have not been to Vienna but I assume this region will be great for that). Quebec is very good too.

    ::::::::::::

    I think backyard shashliks are better than backyard burgers, but these aren’t exactly restaurant foods.

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
    , @AquariusAnon
  56. Mr. Hack says:
    @AP

    If you haven’t already, I would suggest that you visit Laguna Beach the next time you do some ‘California Dreamin’. Some of the nicest beaches are to be found in this area. The artsy scene is fun too. When next in Arizona, please look me up, I’ll be glad to show you some sights that you may not have already seen…

    AK: If you want me to put you in touch with AP, feel free to email me your real email (I assume the one you use isn’t your real one). My contact info is on my personal site.

  57. @AP

    Sushi – better in CA, northeastern USA and Canada (especially Montreal, oddly it is as good there as in Vancouver)

    I don’t follow. Is there a history of Japanese settlement in Vancouver that Montréal doesn’t have?

    • Replies: @AquariusAnon
  58. @AP

    Agreed on how Russian cakes taste.

    I ordered a warm chocolate cake as dessert with my meal at Cafe Kamergerka on Kuznetsky Most, and I recall it to be exceedingly sweet, exactly what I’d expect from a chocolate cake at an American restaurant. And this is a highly SWPL restaurant/pub where there were British, Japanese, and Indian patrons and all the waiters spoke fluent English. They specialize in burgers and Czech cuisine btw, with a couple of Russian dishes. Their actual dishes are not bad though: Standard pub fare with a Czech/Russian twist.

    I’m not a big fan of Russian ice cream either. Its better than Chinese or those Mayfield ice cream you buy from the bucket (which both taste like water), but noticeably worse than higher quality brands like Haagen Dazs. I would say its a tad too “creamy” and doesn’t feel enough like a frozen treat.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    , @melanf
    , @AP
  59. @Hyperborean

    There’s historically a very large Japanese population in both Vancouver and Seattle. That’s where they were mostly concentrated when they first moved to North America around 3 to 4 generations ago.

    Montreal has recently gotten a really big influx of Chinese. They mostly live among themselves, there to attend the Anglo universities like McGill, and don’t really interact much with French Canadians (if they do interact with native white Canadians in Montreal, its mostly with the Anglos).

  60. Burger King is trash. So is Taco Bell and Hardys.

    McDonalds is better than most and they have pretty good food. But for major chains of fast food Culver’s and White Castles are the best.

    KFC, I don’t even think it is real chicken but it is pretty good.

  61. Mr. Hack says:
    @AquariusAnon

    There’s a new Ukrainian restaurant in town (no kidding ‘Ukrainian’ and not ‘Russian’). After a hearty meal of chicken ‘schnitzel’ (vidbyvki in Ukrainian) and boiled potatoes, I finished the meal with a delicious homemade honey torte. A many layered concoction of a soft crumbly dough with a honey/cream filling, drizzled with honey. Yum. They used to have a decent Kyivan torte imported from the old country, but because they haven’t been getting enough regular shipments, they’ve decided to bake their own, in-house. Actually, I hope that the shipments of the Kyivan torte keep diminishing…Love a good East European torte over most any Western dessert.

    • Replies: @AquariusAnon
  62. Matra says:

    AK: What replaced them? BURGERS. As of today, every tenth restaurant order in Moscow – and every second fast food order – features that iconic American sandwich

    Everywhere seems to be the same. I’m in Lviv right now. There are three McDonald’s within ten minutes walking and numerous places promoting their gourmet or craft burgers, even places that one , or at least I, wouldnt suspect of serving them. Today I saw two places advertising in English that this spot would soon be a burger joint. Craft beer is another one. London is coming down with these craft burger/beer places and if it weren’t for them saying rocket instead of arugula even their menus would be virtually identical in wording as their American counterparts. Europeans now copy everything from America.

    • Replies: @AP
  63. @melanf

    Yes, I like these fast food outlets that serve Russian cuisine. Simple, but usually hearty.

    They are easy to find in cities like Vladimir, Yaroslavl, etc. I always find it interesting that westerners only go to the two big cities but know nothing about all the others.

  64. Dmitry says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    Interesting viewpoint. When people are writing like this, it’s usually an indication they are trying to apply reason to the topic.

  65. @Mr. Hack

    The owner is definitely yet another svidomist. Can’t believe svidomy found its way to Arizona…

    Generally, western desserts are too sweet. However, Japanese interpretations of western dessert usually turn out really well.

  66. dfordoom says: • Website
    @Anatoly Karlin

    Some of the world’s best food scientists have invested decades of work in optimizing for taste, price, and speed of cooking

    So it’s food designed by a committee. The most important thing is that it should appeal to all tastes. This is of course impossible, so what you end up with is food that no-one finds particularly objectionable, and no-one finds particularly appealing either. It’s safe and bland. Ideal sustenance for the consumer drones. Mass production is awesome.

    • Replies: @Patricus
    , @inertial
  67. Mikhail says: • Website
    @Mr. Hack

    Another option:

    https://peterluger.com/peter-luger-steak-house-old-fashioned-sauce/

    In NY, these bottles are sold individually in some food stores.

    Prefer the prep and cooking method that I mentioned.

    I like to pre-mix such with an egg and ketchup for anywhere between 2 and a half and 4 pounds of chopped meat.

    If not on the grill, olive oil pan cooked with some soy sauce put on each side of the burger as it’s being cooked.

    For health reasons, it’s important to freeze the uncooked leftovers relatively soon.

  68. AP says:
    @Matra

    I’m in Lviv right now.

    Lucky you. The city is small and I’d get bored there after more than a week or two but it’s a great place for a brief visit.

    Cafe Veronika once had the best desserts anywhere (even my Russian wife agrees), but they have gone downhill (though still good). Mons Pius had good steaks in 2017. Desserts at Amadeus are still good (they had some wonderful apple-stuffed bliny with mango and liqueur sauce).

    In 2017 burgers were appearing but they were still rather rare.

    • Replies: @Mr. XYZ
  69. Mr. XYZ says:
    @AP

    A city with over 700,000 people doesn’t exactly sound small.

    • Replies: @AP
    , @Matra
  70. AP says:
    @Mr. XYZ

    Everything is relative. One can of course live and work in a small city but for tourism purposes you need a place like Moscow, NY, London, Chicago to be busy for more than 2 weeks.

    • Replies: @Gerard2
  71. Gerard2 says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    Unpopular viewpoint:

    Fast food is objectively delicious (and McDonald’s, being the most successful fast food chain, is more delicious than most). Some of the world’s best food scientists have invested decades of work in optimizing for taste, price, and speed of cooking – and consumers have voted with their stomachs. Even in Russia, if you go to a mall, it will be the McDonald’s that is going to be reliably packed, with 2-3x fewer people milling about the Burger King and the KFC, even fewer people at the Teremok (a high quality Russian fast food chain that specializes in bliny), and the Kroshka Kartoshka almost deserted (a lower quality Russian fast food chain centering around potato dishes).

    utter garbage…….so called “popularity” of this garbage of which I am proud to say I have never eat, is just a form of moronic americanism.

    part of flavour is smell….and this smell’s like dogshit. It’s just a brainwashing operation. It’s a form of moronic americanism. People can see and hear American films and music, but they can’t interact with it. Perhaps they view fashion and sportwear as too international to highlight any american designs, Eastern Europe has their own strong identity on Basketball, if at least a few of the great American cars (except Ford) were mass exported to the rest of the developed and non-developed world, then there would not be this problem because people would have something fully American with which to interact in a non-ironic way.

    It’s why, for instance, British people dont get treated with revulsion by people of the world because of their horrendous teeth..because people admire British overall achievement and popular culture influence…it doesn’t mean they admire terrible teeth . A Romanian wouldn’t get anywhere outside of Romania if he had teeth only half as bad as a british guy

    You should be ashamed Karlin, it’s lazy liberast s like you who are responsible for bad parenting + the understandable and entirely misplaced pro-Americanism in the 1990’s. This Americanism , plus the bad parenting that made parents be lazy and have kids with this fictitious “ADHD” meant they hooked their kids on this subhuman garbage “food”( explains Mr Hack/Spack/Twat/lover of 5 year olds in Palliative care) as a way to subdue them, then they started eating this garbage without thinking.

    This is the other side to the fact that kids can more easily learn different languages when they are very young…they can habitually “like ” this garbage if lazy parents give them it.

    I like mint ice -cream, but through psyops, how many people would eat and “enjoy” as mint& choc flavoured an ice cream with advertised as this flavour, but in reality tastes nothing like it, only the COLOURS make them think so? Probably more than 55% of these lemmings

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  72. Gerard2 says:
    @AP

    Everything is relative. One can of course live and work in a small city but for tourism purposes you need a place like Moscow, NY, London, Chicago to be busy for more than 2 weeks.

    LOL….still going on with the bizarre charade that a f**ked in head spamtroll scumbag as yourself has spent ANY time in Lvov?How many hours ( on this blog alone) is it going to be today you deranged POS?

    • Replies: @AP
  73. AP says:
    @Gerard2

    LOL, and yet here you are, obsessed and stalking. And even worse – a Sovok.

    • Replies: @Gerard2
    , @AquariusAnon
  74. inertial says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    Alternative explanation: some people just like Georgian. I don’t particularly like or dislike it but my son became a huge fan after just one restaurant visit.

    Here’s more proof that you don’t have to be a Sovok to enjoy Georgian cuisine. An American journalist lists highlights of the 2018 World Cup in the Washington Post. One of the highlights:

    Visitors discovered the wonders of Georgian food, and we’re not talking about ripe peaches and Chick-fil-A. Khinkali (dumplings) and khachapuri (cheese bread) changed lives forever.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/soccer-insider/wp/2018/07/16/highlights-of-a-beautiful-world-cup-we-wont-ever-forget/

    • Replies: @Gerard2
    , @AP
    , @melanf
  75. inertial says:

    I used to dislike McDonald’s but I grew to appreciate it more. For one thing, the kitchen is always absolutely clean there. Filthy kitchens negate all the supposed benefits of “natural” foods made there.

    McDonald’s salads used to be absolutely the best for the price. They are still not bad.

    • Replies: @Patricus
  76. Gerard2 says:
    @AP

    LOL, and yet here you are, obsessed and stalking.

    HAHA! So a nutjob who writes a million comments, then recycles my accurate comment about it (stalker – used accurately to describe what a f**kwit nonlife as yourself does to pro-Russian blogs 24/7) in another form of projection, that the maggot can carry on for hours and hours as it has nothing to do

    I go to Georgian restaurants in Moscow. Ironically this is a Sovok phenomenon,

    That first sentence is a fantasy of a fantasist……even a fairly innocuous thing like that.

    As for saying food (Georgian) that is popular in Russia for centuries, among elites, soldiers or anybody …..is somehow a Soviet thing ( or many other things of Kavkaz origin fully immersed into the Russian culture)…….just shows what a thick, fraud amoeba you are ,you tramp
    and as with all Banderatards and their pseudo-pseudo patriotism not even the possiblity of “Ukrainian “food comes up for you retards- something an inbred as yourself would be ignorant on

    • Replies: @AP
  77. Gerard2 says:
    @inertial

    Alternative explanation: some people just like Georgian. I don’t particularly like or dislike it but my son became a huge fan after just one restaurant visit.

    Good – the post you were replying to also misses the point that there are a great many delicacies across Russia, that if anything, I think are experiencing a renaissance now

    Here’s more proof that you don’t have to be a Sovok to enjoy Georgian cuisine. An American journalist lists highlights of the 2018 World Cup in the Washington Post. One of the highlights:

    the sentiment is right, but the source is garbage…could be a form of patronising.

  78. Gerard2 says:

    Yaroslav Rakitskiy, you legend! Is there ANYBODY still left in country 404 at the moment?

  79. AP says:
    @Gerard2

    So a nutjob who writes a million comments

    I’m the third most prolific commenter here, Sovok and stalker.

  80. Patricus says:
    @dfordoom

    Fast food from McDonalds is not high quality cuisine however who visits McD’s for five star dining? It is great a couple times per year. If one is hungry a Big Mac quickly fills the belly and transports protein and fat to the brain’s pleasure centers. If one wants to eat well cook at home.

    I try to avoid all restaurants if possible but sometimes there is no choice. If one had to eat all meals in restaurants it would be an eternal torment.

    • Replies: @dfordoom
  81. AP says:
    @inertial

    Alternative explanation: some people just like Georgian.

    It is damn good, and hard to find outside the former USSR.

    Here’s more proof that you don’t have to be a Sovok to enjoy Georgian cuisine.

    I don’ think anyone claimed that.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  82. Patricus says:
    @inertial

    And most McDonalds have clean bathrooms!

  83. Mr. Hack says:
    @Gerard2

    This Americanism , plus the bad parenting that made parents be lazy and have kids with this fictitious “ADHD” meant they hooked their kids on this subhuman garbage “food”( explains Mr Hack/Spack/Twat/lover of 5 year olds in Palliative care) as a way to subdue them, then they started eating this garbage without thinking.

    I’m beginning to think that guys like Karlin and AP just don’t understand nor appreciate how creative and insightful a writer you really are. Your knowledge of so many fields shines through and permeates the smallest details of your subject matter. I’ve never had anybody describe my psyche as well as you have! You need to start a blog of your own and quit wasting your time propping up this blog with your clever comments. If the likes of Karlin and Averko can sponsor blogs of their own, what in the world is holding you back? You obviously have the time to afford such a project, as is witnessed by your countless comments here and elsewhere. You need to write full length threads, not limit yourself to these crummy little comments!

    • Replies: @Mr. XYZ
    , @Gerard2
  84. melanf says:
    @inertial

    Alternative explanation: some people just like Georgian.

    For example, I love the Georgian tavern near the station Udelnaya. The food there is really excellent. (at very modest prices).

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  85. melanf says:
    @AquariusAnon

    I’m not a big fan of Russian ice cream either. Its better than Chinese or those Mayfield ice cream you buy from the bucket (which both taste like water), but noticeably worse than higher quality brands like Haagen Dazs. I would say its a tad too “creamy” and doesn’t feel enough like a frozen treat.

    It is very strange to compare “Russian ice cream” (all, in General) with “higher quality brands like Haagen Dazs”. There are many varieties of completely different “Russian ice cream”.

  86. inertial says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    You are right, people who lived all their lives in the USSR hadn’t a clue about how the market economy functioned. What dummies! Let’s laugh at them.

    Conversely, the folks who never lived in the USSR exhibit exactly the same level of understanding of the Soviet economy. No one laughs at them, though.

    • Replies: @AP
    , @Anatoly Karlin
  87. Mr. XYZ says:
    @Mr. Hack

    He wants to share his wisdom with Unz Review readers, though. His own blog might not be read by everyone at the Unz Review.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  88. inertial says:
    @dfordoom

    You know who loves, loves, loves McDonald food?

    The kids.

    They all do. It’s uncanny.

    Perhaps this is the explanation for the rise of the burgers in Russia. A new generation who tried them as children is coming of age.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    , @dfordoom
  89. AP says:
    @inertial

    You are right, people who lived all their lives in the USSR hadn’t a clue about how the market economy functioned. What dummies! Let’s laugh at them.

    Conversely, the folks who never lived in the USSR exhibit exactly the same level of understanding of the Soviet economy. No one laughs at them, though.

    Because their own economic system was not a joke.

  90. Mr. Hack says:
    @melanf

    When visiting relatives in Ukraine, I’ve been exposed to a few Georgian items. A condiment called ‘yadzige’ first comes to mind that some Ukrainians even know how to make from scratch. Although similar to Mexican salsa, with most of the same ingredients, somehow it tastes even better? Plov, a main Georgian staple, is great too. I really do appreciate Georgian red wines. Their quality input to wines is like what the Belgians do to beer – very tasty! Do you think that shashlik is really a Georgian innovation? I mean grilling meat over fire seems pretty international to me?…

    • Replies: @g2k
  91. Mr. Hack says:
    @Mr. XYZ

    He could write a blog just for himself like the Insomniac does. Another blog written by an inveterate Ukrainaphobe, just what the world needs!

    • Replies: @Mikhail
  92. Mr. Hack says:
    @inertial

    About 15 years ago, McDonalds used to have what they called a ‘Happy Meal’ designed to be consumed by little kids. The obligatory small cheeseburger and fries were accompanied by a small plastic toy, that was an immense hit with the little ones. I used to have to take my niece their 2-3 times a week so that she could add to her growing collection of plastic toys – a great marketing campaign by McDonalds (I know!).

  93. Mikhail says: • Website
    @Mr. Hack

    As opposed to:

    Did he get cut, or simply decided on his own not to follow through?

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  94. Dmitry says:
    @AP

    Georgian cuisine is very fashionable now in many countries.

    See in London:

    In New York:

    Maybe not in Los Angeles though?

    It just says Armenian restaurants

  95. Mr. Hack says:
    @Mikhail

    I don’t tweet, so I I always have a hard time following the strange format. I’m not really sure what Kovpak did or said to deserve the wrath of Karlin?…I used to follow his blog and indeed found some of his pieces to be ‘interesting fruit’, but quit following it when he let me know that he didn’t appreciate my critiques of his pro-Communist stuff. I don’t know if he got cut or just fizzled out on his own?…

    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
  96. @Dmitry

    Any ethnic cuisine is popular among London and New York SWPLs. The same crowd would go nuts over Afghan food for example. For them, Georgian cuisine isn’t Sovok, but rare, exotic cuisine from an exotic part of the world.

    Even Teremok might have thrived in NYC had they not enter the NYC market during peak Putin Derangement Syndrome, who unfortunately is the exact non-Russian crowd who’d go out for some Russian cuisine in Manhattan.

    Dodo Pizza, a Russian pizzeria, seems to be really popular among Ole Miss students.

    • Replies: @Mikhail
    , @inertial
  97. Matra says:
    @Mr. XYZ

    It is big enough that there is plenty to see and do – though highly concentrated in the central area – but not too big that it’s overwhelming for a three day visit. With several low cost airlines now flying to the city from London, Berlin, Dortmund, etc, Lviv is probably due to “break out” in terms of getting Western/Northern European tourists. Whether that’s good or bad in the long term the city seems to be ready for it in terms of infrastructure and English proficiency among the young. It reminds me of visiting the main Polish tourist cities a decade or so ago.

    • Replies: @AP
  98. AP says:
    @AquariusAnon

    I’m not a big fan of Russian ice cream either…I would say its a tad too “creamy” and doesn’t feel enough like a frozen treat.

    I think creaminess is the point though; from the Russian perspective it is superior to the low fat weak Western ice cream. My wife is always tryng to find oce cream as nice and creamy as in Russia, but it doens’t seem to exist in the West.

  99. AP says:
    @Matra

    Thank you for providing another objective opinion.

    • Replies: @AquariusAnon
  100. dfordoom says: • Website
    @Patricus

    Fast food from McDonalds is not high quality cuisine however who visits McD’s for five star dining? It is great a couple times per year.

    I have nothing against fast food. But McDonalds has always seemed to me to be just too bland. As if they were deliberately aiming for maximum blandness.

  101. dfordoom says: • Website
    @inertial

    You know who loves, loves, loves McDonald food?

    The kids.

    They love it because their friends love it. Nothing matters more to a kid than liking exactly the same things their peer group likes.

    • Replies: @inertial
  102. Mikhail says: • Website
    @AquariusAnon

    Former NHL coach Mike Keenan (who has been coaching in Russia) noted how pizza in Russia has different toppings from what’s typical in North America. He mentioned sardines as an example.

    If anchovies can be put on pizza, why not sardines? Sardines, with red peppers and chopped spinach is a good combo on pizza. A few years back, some Canadian Uke mentioned kielbasa pizza on a weekly Ukrainian-North American TV show.

  103. g2k says:
    @Dmitry

    Last time I checked, there were about three Georgian places in the whole of london, and that’s counting Erebuni in barbican which was pan-former-soviet. There are none in the regions.

    Has anyone tried ossetian pies?

  104. g2k says:
    @Mr. Hack

    Do you mean, adjika? Tkemali is an interesting alternate to chill sauce, made with sour plums, which i quite like. Its one of a few very signature georgian flavour combinations which don’t really exist anywhere else in the world: Sour plum, Tarragon, wine, georgian spice blends (they’ve had a lead scandal recently though, so be careful).

    Plov is central Asian.

    Their wine is pretty good and has a lot of potential, because there’s grape varieties totally unique to that location. A lot of it is geared towards the Russian market and quite cloying. The travesty is, that as the quality is starting to improve, they’re starting to grow European varieties, which negates their unique selling point.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  105. inertial says:
    @dfordoom

    That’s like saying that kids like chocolate because their friends like chocolate.

    Do you remember being under 10 years old? There are things that you like and other things that you dislike, and you know from the first bite which is which.

    • Replies: @dfordoom
  106. inertial says:
    @AquariusAnon

    This has nothing to do with Putin. There were other attempt at Russian fast food in NYC (Manhattan,) even back in the 1990s. All failed. Americans in general just don’t like this kind of food.

    I saw this attitude in a distilled form when I was watching cartoons with kids. Watch the sequence from 0:30 to 0:40.

    For those who can’t/don’t want to watch, here is the dialog:

    Villain (speaking with an exaggerated Russian accent)
    I will destroy the Earth’s pizza supply and replace it … with pierogi and borsht!

    Heroes (horrified)
    EWWGH!

    Main Hero
    We won’t let this happen!

    • Replies: @inertial
  107. @inertial

    Not just any people – the people who actually ran the country. The Gorbachev anecdote confirms it was the rule, not the exception. Moreover, these were people who started to introduce market mechanisms into the Soviet economy. Expecting them to understand what they’re doing is a very reasonable requirement, I would think, unless perhaps one is a sovok.

    Incidentally, the KGB understood things better, owing to the nature of their work. That partly explains why their “alumni” were subsequently so successful.

    • Replies: @inertial
  108. @Mr. Hack

    This was a reply to a post I made in which some sovok svidomist “professor” in Canada who probably fled there on account of Le Drumpf posted that video of Poklonskaya drinking champagne on a horse, to which he made some sarcastic comment to the effect of what would the poor proles think of such decadence? (The point being, of course, not me complaining of “Russophobia”, but expressing bemusement that said prof would seriously consider – or, much more likely, pretend for the benefit of his drone followers – that champagne is any sort of luxury good in Russia, when it wasn’t so even in the USSR).

    Though it seems that some people lap it up.

    Profile: “Student. Aspiring journalist. Moscow, Paris, Reims, in Beirut for a year. Upside down. Check out @WatchXenophobia“.

    @WatchXenophobia: Tracking state violence against migrants & normalization of xenophobia [email protected] #RefugeesWelcome #NoOneIsIllegal

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  109. dfordoom says: • Website
    @inertial

    That’s like saying that kids like chocolate because their friends like chocolate.

    But the odds are you’ll want the same brand of chocolate bars that the other kids like.

  110. inertial says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    Moreover, these were people who started to introduce market mechanisms into the Soviet economy.

    They were doing no such thing.

  111. @AP

    Based on the walking video of Lviv, it really does seem much more like a Central European city, with both the people and the buildings looking much more Polish/Hungarian/Slovak than Russian/Ukrainian.

    Kiev on the other hand seems much more distinctively East Slavic.

    • Replies: @AP
  112. @AP

    So apparently being a Sovok is as bad as being a stalker now? The former is relatively harmless, the latter, well….

    • Replies: @AP
  113. Mr. Hack says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    It all sounds rather like obtuse posturing to me. I disagree with the ‘Professor’s characterization of you being somehow overtly defensive of any criticism of Russia. You’ve brought up a number of criticisms of Russia yourself that has garnered you the approbation of both fellow rightists and of course Russian sovoks. One of the problems that I have with you is that although the ‘Professor’ has probably characterized you as being an alt-rightist (at least your blog is sponsored on a leading alt-right website) and you seem to continence other forms of right wing nationalism of other countries, you, of course, show little or no sympathy for Ukrainian rightists. This is an issue of consistency (or lack thereof) that I find with your schtick. This is a larger problem of the alt-right movement in general. It’s not monolithic and doesn’t really express a united front, but falls apart at the seems when two conflicting right wing nationalist movements butt heads, as the Ukrainian and Russian ones do.

  114. AP says:
    @AquariusAnon

    Depends on context. Stalker who finds his way into my house is worse than a Sovok who merely insults me. But Sovoks killed many more people than stalkers have, and have ruined and trashed entire civilizations.

  115. AP says:
    @AquariusAnon

    Correct. Kiev has a subtly different atmosphere from Russian cities but not nearly as different as does Lviv. I know people in Moscow who prior to 2014 used to fly to Kiev to hang out – they liked the music scene and felt that the place was both familiar yet different enough to be interesting. After 2014 people in Kiev, whom they had considered to be friends, refused to associate with them. In terms of loyalty and national identity Kiev is strongly with Lviv.

  116. Mr. Hack says:
    @g2k

    Indeed, I did mean adjika. It’s been a while since I tasted it and the commercial stuff just doesn’t compare to the homemade. I’ll be on the lookout for tkemali. All of the Georgian wines in my neighborhood seems to be traditional and hold up pretty good. I do know that they’ve added Cabernet Savignon, a European variety to their production, a wine that I’m quite fond of, however, I haven’t tried it. It’s hard to locate in the US market and I mostly am limited to my search at ‘Russian’ stores.
    It seems to be quite popular in Britain and they have a distribution arm there that seems quite willing to accomodate ones needs: http://www.georgianwinehouse.com/. Oops, I see that they’re now open on the East Coast of the US – yay!

  117. Gerard2 says:
    @Dmitry

    Georgian cuisine is very fashionable now in many countries.

    Well Dmitry, it’s typical of this dumbf**k maggot fantasist ukrop troll not to know about this non-Wikipedia fact ( but somehow write for hours on this same retard fantasy as if he did)

    In London there is one Georgian restaurant in the Kensington area of London…in other words the super-wealthy area in the centre of London where the Oligarchs live. There is an Orthodox church nearby .
    That suggests to me that georgian food isn’t fashionable, but a Russian diaspora thing, market-wise.

    Unlike Armenia which has a fairly sizeable diaspora from Ottoman/post 1917/post 1990 time in western countries like US, UK and France, Georgia has almost no diaspora community whatsoever to talkabout. Armenia like Georgia is a great culture, but Armenians can project themselves to westerners as a different race with proud culture (helped by the fact they don’t get on with Turkey and Azerbaijan- same looking people) . With Georgia there is nothing, just individual immigrants, and in small numbers. As such, I can’t see the Georgian food taking off very far in the west.

    So I would say Georgian food, which is great…. outside of Russia is moderately fashionable only among a certain type of cosmopolitan that you can only get in a massively populated metropolis…and not within a general population such as Indian and Italian food is with British people.

    I know of 2 Romanian restaurants in the mainland Europe and in the UK which actually changed the name of the restaurant away from something with “Romania” in it. The one in the UK, very nice food, changed the name into “European Restaurant” and the (also Romanian) one in Europe into something random. I believe this is simply because the term “Romania” to the British/other westerners either means “Gypsies/pickpockets”, “backwards people” or “non-entities” who they aren’t interested in. In other words…..it is never totally about the food.

    How are the Georgians doing in Israel BTW?

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  118. Gerard2 says:
    @Mr. Hack

    you need to start a blog of your own and quit wasting your time propping up this blog with your clever comments. If the likes of Karlin and Averko can sponsor blogs of their own, what in the world is holding you back?

    My number if comments is too small to make that assessment you laughably braindead cretin. Thanks for your advice. I know it is just verbal diarrhea – but still, at least it is an attempt to be constructive

    Anyway ,the role of the blogger (Karlin), to the commentator (me) is completely different and can’t be compared.

    Karlin is the Valeri Lobanovski. I am the Oleg Blokhin.
    Karlin is Rinus Michels . I am the Johann Neeksens ( I can’t say Cruyff because he wont on to become a great coach.

    Different roles – but same malignant prick ( you)

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  119. Gerard2 says:
    @AP

    .

    Kiev has a subtly different atmosphere from Russian cities but not nearly as different as does Lviv

    HAHAHAHAHA! So the fantasist liar who knows f**k all about Lvov and Kiev, or Moscow and Russia……..and got undeniably found out (again) , when as a disturbed POS, you did not even know that a million people in Kiev had no hot water for 7 months,…………then compounded this fact by proving that you cant speak Russian when you somehow passed this off as only affecting 300 houses in the city….when any familiarity with ANYONE from Kiev , or even Lvov would be able to say that isn’t remotely true
    …..takes your sick charade beyond the threshold of abject freakshow

    Kiev has a subtly different atmosphere from Russian cities

    utter contemptible, fandom fantasist BS. It’s a typical Russian city you dumb POS. Kaliningrad,Kazan,Perm,Krasnodar…these are places with “subtly different atmospheres”…all the Ukrainian cities are unmistakely Russian you dickhead….albeit much less well run.
    Outside of the very small historic city centre, the same is even true of Lvov, of which Russians must still be by a distance the largest “foreign” visitors to a poor city avoided embarrassingly like the plague during Euro 2012 ( only real chance, outside of prostitution, to attract foreign visitors you Ukraine)

    • Replies: @AP
  120. Mr. Hack says:
    @Gerard2

    Nah, don’t be so modest. You’re the greatest of all time, a real original. Why not step out of your comfort zone, and see just how easy it is to attract a readership? If not your cuddly personality, then it would have be your cutting edge wit and intellectual razor edge analysis that wold draw in all of the intellectual waifs out there. What Chuck Barris was to the world of entertainment, you could become as an impresario of existential conversation. You’re a natural, you’re really deep!

  121. @AP

    We need to end Kiev svidomy now!!

    Hopefully Tymoshenko as the next Ukrainian president is smart enough to restore direct Kiev to Moscow flights, restore train services to 2013 levels, restore full visa free access for Russians, re-open any closed Russian businesses in Ukraine, and repent and beg for Putin to reopen the Roshen factory in Lipetsk.

    And all non-Lviv Ukrainian gasterbeiters should be redirected to Russia.

    Lviv can sit under a tree and pick its nose as a svidomy sex tourist destination. I don’t care. But Kiev is fundamentally a city that belongs to the Russosphere, even if its not a part of Russia itself. Odessa on the other hand, is a Russian city.

    • Replies: @AP
  122. Mr. Hack says:

    Odessa on the other hand, is a Russian city.

    Don’t make me laugh. With over 66% Ukrainian ethnicity and already before 2014 more parents sending their kids to Ukrainian language schools! I wonder what the percentage is today, 5 years later?

    • Replies: @Gerard2
  123. AP says:
    @AquariusAnon

    Hopefully Tymoshenko as the next Ukrainian president is smart enough to restore direct Kiev to Moscow flights, restore train services to 2013 levels, restore full visa free access for Russians, re-open any closed Russian businesses in Ukraine, and repent and beg for Putin to reopen the Roshen factory in Lipetsk.

    Unfortunately for you almost no one in Kiev wants these things.

    But Kiev is fundamentally a city that belongs to the Russosphere

    Says a Chinese person who erroneously believes that Ukraine is somehow Russia’s Taiwan.

    Russia’s experiment of integrating Ukraine ended in bitter failure. It was an unnatural combination, destined to be undone.

    Odessa on the other hand, is a Russian city.

    Odessa is about 60% Ukrainian and the last time the Russian nationalists, perhaps foolishly believing that Odessa was like Donetsk (something you too believe, it seems) tried something there it went very badly for them.

    • Replies: @Gerard2
    , @AquariusAnon
  124. Gerard2 says:
    @Mr. Hack

    Don’t make me laugh. With over 66% Ukrainian ethnicity

    Who did this poll ?the same retards who claimed that a majority or even 40+% of people in “Ukraine” speak “Ukrainian” as a first language?

    Russian is even more dominant in Odessa than it is in the overwhelmingly dominant Kiev you stupid idiot. Go there, and you would realise what an idiotic statement you are making

    Saying this idiot “66% Ukrainian” is like saying in this area there are “25% eagles and 75% birds” ( in other words, 100% birds/100% Russians) …anyway it is simply BS, there is no such thing as “Ukrainian” and with intermarriage there is absolute no possible way to arrive at a 66% figure you idiot…….this isn’t the Baltics ( and even then it wouldn’t be completely accurate to say there isn’t a decent amount of intermarriage)

    Ukrainian language schools! I wonder what the percentage is today, 5 years later?

    utter garbage. There are too many examples that show…if you give teachers and pupils throughout Ukraine the choice of textbooks…….they choose Russian

    if you give them the choice of language to teach in….they do it in Russian

    if you give them no choice of book (i.e must be Ukrainian textbook) then they still conduct the lesson in Russian whilst holding the Ukrainian book…before eventually discarding it a few weeks later for a Russian textbook

    if you give them no choice of which language to teach in……..they STILL slip into communicating in Russian?

    You must surely know of the habitual occurrences of lessons being done in Russian , even with a (mandated and pitiful) Ukrop textbook?

    • Replies: @AP
  125. Gerard2 says:
    @AP

    Unfortunately for you almost no one in Kiev wants these things.

    Unfortunately for you, a braindead retard who didn’t even know basic things about Kiev, like 7 months without hot water and numerous other things……you aren’t in a position to have any idea what people in Kiev want you inbred nutjob

    Says a Chinese person who erroneously believes that Ukraine is somehow Russia’s Taiwan.

    Says a North American Banderatard, with sadist fucktard ancestors from an area that was never any part of any fictitious Ukraine……. claiming to be “Ukrainian” while claiming to be Austrian and Polish at the same time (WTF)….who probably denotes as much money to Ukraine as the supposedly Chinese guy does….and probably has less chance of wanting to move there then the supposed Chinese guy

    Odessa is about 60% Ukrainian

    err no……the Motyl Wikipedia area does not classify as accurate information you deranged retard

    Russian nationalists, perhaps foolishly believing that Odessa was like Donetsk (something you too believe, it seems) tried something there it went very badly for them.

    Banderatard making fake argument ( no surprise)….then bizarrely glorifying in an event that was very similar to many events of which the scumbag, lowest cesspit of humanity ancestors of a POS as you were infamous for carrying out 70 years ago.
    Obscene

    • Replies: @AP
  126. Dmitry says:
    @Gerard2

    Kensington area of London…in other words the super-wealthy area in the centre of London

    This is a quite fashionable area.

    It’s true a lot of Russians live nearby (and oligarchs live in streets like “Kensington Palace Gardens” which just walks into the same road), but why native Londoners would not go there too .

    That suggests to me that georgian food isn’t fashionable, but a Russian diaspora thing, market-wise.

    It’s spreading in London.

    Look at all these restaurants in this article:

    Little Georgia, Bethnal Green and Islington (see website for locations)

    Both branches of Little Georgia serve consistently great food. Georgian pictures and drinking horns adorn the walls.

    The Georgian, 27 Balham Hill, SW12 9DX

    Deliveroo now from Balham

    This charming café opposite Clapham South tube station does a great khachapuri, served in cosy surroundings.

    Iberia, 294-296 Caledonian Road, N1 1BA

    Deliveroo now from Caledonian

    Iberia serves three regional variations of khachapuri, which gives them mega bonus points (did we mention we like khachapuri?).

    Tbilisi, 91 Holloway Road, N7 8LT

    A little more meat focused than other Georgian restaurants, and open evenings only.

    https://londonist.com/london/food/londons-best-georgian-restaurants-what-to-order

    Also they will teach Georgian cooking in the famous city of Oxford this year:

    Lia teaches cookery the Georgian way at Oxford cookery school

    https://www.oxfordmail.co.uk/news/17349863.lia-teaches-cookery-the-georgian-way-at-oxford-cookery-school/

    And I found a video in the London market:

    and not within a general population such as Indian and Italian food is with British people.

    That’s true. Indian and Italian food is much more mainstream in the UK.

    How are the Georgians doing in Israel BTW?

    Personally I didn’t meet Georgians in Israel, but I only met limited people (I’ve met Georgians in Spain and in London though) . Georgians are one of the main nationalities that live in Israel of course.

    And the restaurants spread with them to Israel – e.g.

    Everyone says the best place to eat Georgian food is Georgia itself, and that’s it’s extremely good and cheap food in the restaurants there – but I have not been to the country yet. So maybe other people here know more…

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  127. Dmitry says:
    @Dmitry

    And the restaurants spread with them to Israel – e.g.

    Don’t go to that restaurant though – I just read the online reviews and food does not sound very good.

  128. AP says:
    @Gerard2

    Sovok tries to say things about a place he doesn’t understand.

  129. AP says:
    @Gerard2

    claiming to be “Ukrainian” while claiming to be Austrian and Polish at the same time (WTF)

    Sovok-stalker tries to remember details about another person’s life, because he has no life of his own.

    But Sovok gets confused 🙁

    Odessa is about 60% Ukrainian

    err no……the Motyl Wikipedia area does not classify as accurate information you deranged retard

    2001 census was 61% Ukrainian and 29% Russian.

    1989, last Soviet census, it was 49% Ukrainian, 39% Russian.

    Sovok can’t add 🙂

    Contrast with Donetsk. 2001 census – Russians 48%, Ukrainians 47%.

    then bizarrely glorifying in an event that was very similar to many events of which the scumbag, lowest cesspit of humanity

    No glorification. Sovok can’t read.

    Just pointed out that when a Russian revolt was attempted in the “Russian” city of Odessa, it failed miserably and the local population just shrugged.

    who didn’t even know basic things about Kiev

    You’ve already proven what little you know about Lviv, other people have visited.

    like 7 months without hot water and numerous

    The best is when you claimed that Polish, Ukrainian and Russian are all one language.

  130. AP says:
    @Gerard2

    You are funny when you are triggered.

    when as a disturbed POS, you did not even know that a million people in Kiev had no hot water for 7 months,…………then compounded this fact by proving that you cant speak Russian when you somehow passed this off as only affecting 300 houses in the city

    Sovok can’t read the Russian language:

    https://www.rbc.ua/rus/news/kieve-okolo-3-tys-domov-goryachey-vody-1538656439.html

    Во время открытия заседания Киевского городского совета мэр Киева Виталий Кличко заявил, что по состоянию на 4 октября в Киеве в около 3 тыс. домов нет горячей воды. Об этом сообщает РБК-Украина со ссылкой на пресс-службу Киевской городской государственной администрации (КГГА).

    https://ubr.ua/finances/zhilishhno-kommunalnoe-hozjajstvo/v-kieve-bez-horjachej-vody-ostalis-2.5-tysjach-kvartir-3872254?utm_source=yxnews&utm_medium=desktop

    В Киеве без горячей воды остались 2,5 тысяч квартир

    Sovok also doesn’t know numbers.

    of which Russians must still be by a distance the largest “foreign” visitors to a poor city

    This has already been debunked by others.

  131. @AP

    Is it a coincidence that when foreigners move to Ukraine, they *always* study Russian?

    When foreign guys try to date Ukrainian girls, they *always* learn Russian, never Ukrainian.

    What’s the main language being spoken on the streets of Kiev? Russian!

    What language is the majority of Ukrainian music being sung in? Russian!

    What language is business in Ukraine conducted in? Russian!

    So yes, at least half of Ukraine is Russia’s Taiwan, or at least Belarus 2.0. In this case, time to do what the Taiwanese have been doing in China since 1990: Invest in Russia, do business with Russia, visit Russia for vacation, study at Russian universities, apply for jobs in Russia, start your business in Russia, live part-time in Russia, and re-visit your Russian relatives.

    The Ukraine you talk about exists, but is limited to the Western half. This “Ukrainian” nation you talk about is around 15-20 million people and is centered around Lviv. The rest of Ukraine is essentially another Belarus, but replace Belarussian language by Ukrainian language.

    Kiev is not a Russian city, but its a Russophone/Russosphere city in the way Minsk is.

    And Odessa was founded by the Russian Empire, and an important Russian trading port. Its one of Russia’s most important cities, and now its withering away under Lviv colonial rule.

    • Replies: @AP
    , @Mr. Hack
  132. @AP

    And regarding the music industry in Kiev, yes its indeed very good.

    But guess what? As I said, its mostly in Russian. And do svidomists want to make money? I’m sure they do especially with their collapsed hohol economy. So they *need* Russia. They need those extra 150 million people market to sell their music to.

    How many people speak Ukrainian? 30 million? There’s no way you can have any type of “music city” industry with that. You need the 260 million strong Russian-speaking market, and much more cities to have concerts in too.

    • Replies: @AP
    , @Mr. XYZ
  133. AP says:
    @AquariusAnon

    Is it a coincidence that when foreigners move to Ukraine, they *always* study Russian?

    When foreign guys try to date Ukrainian girls, they *always* learn Russian, never Ukrainian.

    What’s the main language being spoken on the streets of Kiev? Russian!

    What language is the majority of Ukrainian music being sung in? Russian!

    What language is business in Ukraine conducted in? Russian!

    This part is rather questionable.

    You must think Ireland should join England the IRA should join the British forces.

    So yes, at least half of Ukraine is Russia’s Taiwan, or at least Belarus 2.0

    Taiwan is Taiwan because it is settled largely by mainland Chinese exiles. It is perhaps like the USA to the UK. Ukraine is a separate nation where half the population speaks the language it learned from the colonial master – like Ireland (except in Ireland it is 98% English-speaking). So the two situations aren’t comparable.

    The rest of Ukraine is essentially another Belarus, but replace Belarussian language by Ukrainian language.

    The rest of Ukraine is about 30% Ukrainian-speaking whereas Belarus as a whole is only about 10% Belarussian-speaking. So even here the comparison fails. Leave Kiev and an hour away you’ll find yourself in Ukrainian-speaking villages.

    Kiev is not a Russian city, but its a Russophone/Russosphere city in the way Minsk is.

    I haven’t been to Minsk. While Kiev is mostly Russian-speaking, you definitely hear Ukrainian spoken there also. I’d guess about 1 in 10 people speak it. I doubt that Minsk is the same.

    Moreover since the schools are in Ukrainian (Russian-speaking Kievans themselves voted for this and are proud of this) basically everyone there is capable of speaking Ukrainian. Again, I doubt this is true of Minsk.

    And Odessa was founded by the Russian Empire, and an important Russian trading port.

    And Ukrainians helped Russia in its conquest and colonization of the East. Dividing the spoils based on population (Odessa is 61% Ukrainian) and geography is logical.

    • Replies: @AquariusAnon
  134. AP says:
    @AquariusAnon

    And do svidomists want to make money? I’m sure they do especially with their collapsed hohol economy.

    Economy collapsed only in Donbas, and is doing badly only in Kharkiv. Kiev is fine without Russia, it certainly doesn’t need it. Didn’t you know that Slavs are not Chinese peddlers?

    How many people speak Ukrainian? 30 million? There’s no way you can have any type of “music city” industry with that. You need the 260 million strong Russian-speaking market, and much more cities to have concerts in too.

    Ukrainian is close enough to Russian that Russians can appreciate music sung in Ukrainian. Ukraine’s biggest rock band is Okean Elzy. They sing in Ukrainian and were popular in Russia, touring there frequently before they became anti-Russian (which they don’t mind). I’ve heard Ukrainian music on speakers on the train to the Urals (a rock version of Chervona Ruta).

  135. Mr. Hack says:
    @AquariusAnon

    And Odessa was founded by the Russian Empire, and an important Russian trading port. Its one of Russia’s most important cities, and now its withering away under Lviv colonial rule.

    Lviv colonial rule? Odessa? You’ve got to be kidding! Hasn’t the troll factory that you’re employed at changed the script at all from the 1990’s? 🙂

  136. @AP

    If Ukraine was so integral to Russia to the point of conquering and settling the Russian Far East for Russia, and with 50% of its population speaking Russian as their first language, doesn’t it mean that Ukraine and Russia, while still different, are fundamentally 2 intertwined nations?

    With such close historical ties as partners and allies, Ukraine should be in an extremely close special relationship with Russia, along with Belarus. Imagine what 200 million East Slavs can do when they get hold of both rich agricultural land AND massive oil and natural resources reserves!

    Ukrainians aren’t Poles, who are indeed a separate, historically hostile nation.

    Keep in mind that guys like Taras Shevchenko is as much of a Russian historical cultural figure as Tolstoy, Chekhov, and Tchaikovsky are.

    And regarding Taiwan, actually only 15% of the population are Mainland Chinese exiles, although they are likely the sole reason why China and Taiwan still have very strong trade/tourism relations while seemingly on the brink of WW3. 80+% of Taiwan descendants of 1600s peasants from Fujian Province with some coastal plains Austronesian aboriginal blood mixed in.

    At least 15% of Ukrainians are straight up ethnic Russians too.

    • Replies: @AP
  137. AP says:
    @AquariusAnon

    If Ukraine was so integral to Russia to the point of conquering and settling the Russian Far East for Russia, and with 50% of its population speaking Russian as their first language, doesn’t it mean that Ukraine and Russia, while still different, are fundamentally 2 intertwined nations?

    Just as the Irish and the British settled places together.

    With such close historical ties as partners and allies, Ukraine should be in an extremely close special relationship with Russia

    Two ultimately incompatible political cultures, evidenced by chronic wars and oppression necessary to maintain the “partnership.” I write this a someone who loves the Russian culture and people.

    Ukrainians aren’t Poles, who are indeed a separate, historically hostile nation.

    Ukrainians are as close to Poles as they are to Russians. But because there aren’t 3 times more Poles than Ukrainians, any partnership is bound to be more equal with the western cousins rather than wit the eastern ones.

    And regarding Taiwan, actually only 15% of the population are Mainland Chinese exiles, although they are likely the sole reason why China and Taiwan still have very strong trade/tourism relations while seemingly on the brink of WW3. 80+% of Taiwan descendants of 1600s peasants from Fujian Province with some coastal plains Austronesian aboriginal blood mixed in.

    Fujian is also China. So Taiwan consists of Chinese who left China in the 1600s and Chinese who left China in the 1940s and 1950s.

    The Ukrainian population, in contrast, is native to Ukraine while the Russian population is native to Russia. Each one has different foundation tribes and different subsequent additions (i.e., central Ukrainians are about 10% of Polish descent, settlers from Mazovia were absorbed by the natives).

    • Replies: @AquariusAnon
  138. @AP

    Keep in mind that there’s no fanaticism between UK and Ireland nowadays.

    The Irish minority in the UK, and vice versa, have become so fully assimilated that they are completely British/Irish.

    Ireland and the UK are separate nations, but they are so intertwined that Ireland is pretty much a full autonomous province of the UK, something far enough to exercise sovereignty, but close enough that economic and human interactions are on par with separate provinces. This is what I’m saying Ukraine actually is. None of that banning everything Russian nonsense.

    The only British/Irish flashpoint that still is an open problem is Northern Ireland, with segregation in Belfast lasting to this day. This is equivalent to the Donbass or something.

    And yes, its very important for Russia to be a global economic power with a complex economy otherwise this svidomy will be difficult to end, and will make it easier to get taken advantage of by China.

    • Replies: @AP
  139. AP says:
    @AquariusAnon

    Keep in mind that there’s no fanaticism between UK and Ireland nowadays.

    Hopefully in 30 years there won’t be between Ukraine and Russia either. Good borders and lack of meddling will do that.

    The Irish minority in the UK, and vice versa, have become so fully assimilated that they are completely British/Irish.

    Correct. This is also true of Ukrainians and Russians. And of Ukrainians and Poles no less than of Ukrainians and Russians. I have both nationalistic Russian relatives and nationalistic Polish ones. And of course there are Ukrainian nationalists of Polish and Russian descent. The founder of OUN (Bandera was its later leader) was half-Polish. I know a Ukrainian nationalist from Lviv whose grandfather was a Russia hero at Stalingrad (settled in Lviv after the war, married a local).

    Ireland and the UK are separate nations, but they are so intertwined that Ireland is pretty much a full autonomous province of the UK, something far enough to exercise sovereignty, but close enough that economic and human interactions are on par with separate provinces.

    Probably. OTOH Ireland, unlike Ukraine, does not share a border with another country with which it could can be linked. So the analogy has its limits.

    • Replies: @Mr. XYZ
  140. Mr. Hack says:

    The see saw relationship of Ukraine between Poland (the West) and Russia (the East) has been going on for several centuries and is still in play as is evidenced by this discussion. I think that a viable alternative for Ukraine is to possibly become a larger version of Finland, becoming a neutral buffer zone between the EU and Russia’s CIS. As a mediative interpolator between these two large political amalgamations, Ukraine could evolve into an important international hub and at the same time maintain more neutrality between its two historical ‘cousins’. A large neutral zone like Ukraine could help better link these two large clubs and provide a great entry point for China’s new rail silk road project too.

    • Agree: AquariusAnon
    • Replies: @AP
    , @AquariusAnon
    , @Mr. XYZ
  141. AP says:
    @Mr. Hack

    I would prefer for Ukraine to play a role in preserving European culture by linking itself to those countries that are doing so (Visegrad), adding to their collective demographic and geographic size (and thus, power) and expanding the zone of pristine Europe. Poland, Hungary etc. have a better chance of holding out and winning if they are joined by Ukraine than if Ukraine is somewhat cut off as a buffer zone with Eurasia (or more thoroughly cut off if it is forced into Eurasia).

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    , @Mr. XYZ
  142. Dmitry says:
    @Dmitry

    Georgian restaurants in Chicago as well…

    • Replies: @AP
    , @AquariusAnon
  143. Mr. Hack says:
    @AP

    I can see your point of view. However, Ukraine’s prospects for imminent full membership into the EU seems dimly far away. All of the members of the Visegrad group are also members of the EU, so I don’t even know if inclusion for Ukraine into it is possible without full EU membership first? Besides you (and me sometimes) being such a proponent, I don’t hear of any invitations to join in from the existing group? Ukraine is already de-facto such a buffer zone, even though it has Associate and Free Trade status with the EU. Perhaps, a more formal recognition of its status as ‘neutral’, at least for now, might bode well for everyone?

    • Replies: @Mr. XYZ
  144. AP says:
    @Dmitry

    Interesting. There used to be one in one of the expensive northern suburbs along the lake (where Thorfinson is from) but it’s quality was not close to what one finds in Moscow. Perhaps this one is better.

  145. @Dmitry

    They seem to eat a lot of raw eggs in Georgian cuisine. I can’t stomach raw eggs. I always get my eggs cooked well done/over hard.

  146. @Mr. Hack

    This is by far the best option for everybody, but in order for this to hold in the long term, the EU, the US, and Russia, all 3 parties, need to come to an understanding that Ukraine is a no man’s land that nobody can encroach on, just like in the Cold War.

    Why this wasn’t implemented in 1992, and that both sides have to take Ukraine for itself under its helm, is beyond me. This is just asking for war when it can be totally prevented.

    If permanent neutrality enshrined by a UN Treaty breaks down, then Ukraine should be split apart in 2, with the “Orange” side in the EU and the “Blue” side as a Russian vassal state.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    , @Mr. XYZ
  147. Mr. Hack says:
    @AquariusAnon

    There’s no reason for anything to break down. Minus Donbas and the Crimea, the rest of Ukraine is content with one, strong unitary state. In 2014, Putler couldn’t get any real significant support for rebellion in what those of your ilk refer to as ‘NovoRosija’ outside of the two regions already mentioned. And today, 5 years later? Where’s the outcry for Russian intervention. Even Karlin admits that the time, if it was to be, was in 2014, not today.

    • Replies: @Mr. XYZ
  148. Mr. XYZ says:
    @Mr. Hack

    Completely agreed that eastern and southern Ukrainians (excluding Crimeans and Donbassers) were extremely unlikely to push for integration into Russia even back in 2014. Still, had Russia invaded and conquered all of them, I suspect that they would have been largely passive afterwards. In other words, their passivity would work both ways–if Maidanists seize power in Kiev, they were unlikely to resist the Maidanists, but if Russia conquered them, then they would also be unlikely to resist the Russians.

    I do think that most eastern and southern Ukrainians would have continued to identify as Ukrainian even after a Russian conquest of their territories, though. After all, the ethnic Russian percentage in Crimea only increased by several percent after Russia conquered Crimea.

  149. Mr. XYZ says:

    BTW, Mr. Hack, how many Russians do you think are going to change their self-identification to Ukrainian on the next Ukrainian census in 2020 relative to 2001?

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  150. Mr. XYZ says:
    @AquariusAnon

    Why exactly should either the West or pro-Western Ukrainians agree to this when demographics are on their side, though?

    • Replies: @AquariusAnon
  151. Mr. XYZ says:
    @AP

    I agree that Intermarium is likely to be much stronger if Ukraine joins it. Still, the big priority for Intermarium should be to significantly increase its birth rates while at the same time avoiding dysgenics (and based on PISA data, fertility in countries such as Poland appears to be very dysgenic). As the US has shown, a greater population means greater power and influence–though quality matters just as much as quantity. If you have a huge population but most of it is composed of low IQ Muslims and Africans, then you might not be any more powerful or influential than a less populous high-IQ country.

    Also, as a side note, it really is sad that Intermarium lost its Jewish population in the Holocaust and as a result of mass emigration. Jews could have contributed to the cultural life of Intermarium and would have been a welcome addition to it if they would not have aggressively pushed for multiculturalism like many of them do here in the West (I say this as a Jew myself, for the record). Also, if mass intermarriage between Jews and Gentiles in Intermarium would have occurred in a no-Holocaust scenario, then the Gentiles of Intermarium could have, on average, gotten an additional IQ point or two.

  152. Mr. XYZ says:
    @Mr. Hack

    It’s pretty sad, isn’t it? The EU appears to be eager to welcome Muslims and Africans but not so eager to welcome in additional White Christians.

    Anyway, though, if Ukraine can clean up its corruption issue and begin growing at, say, 7% a year instead of 3% a year, then maybe the other EU countries are going to become more welcoming to the idea of Ukrainian EU membership.

    Being a neutral country might be hard for Ukraine since it is very poor by European standards. A wealthy country such as Switzerland–even if it is small–can be neutral without any problems, but I am unsure that being neutral would actually be a good strategy for a poor country.

  153. Mr. XYZ says:
    @AP

    Probably. OTOH Ireland, unlike Ukraine, does not share a border with another country with which it could can be linked. So the analogy has its limits.

    Actually, Ireland has a common border with the UK through Northern Ireland (which is a part of the UK).

  154. Mr. XYZ says:
    @Mr. Hack

    How about this compromise solution instead: Completely free and fair plebiscites are held in Crimea, the Donbass, and perhaps areas such as Mariupol to determine their future fate. If these areas wish, they can join Russia (or, in Crimea’s case, remain a part of Russia) while the rest of Ukraine will join the EU–at least after it successfully deals with its corruption issue.

    Russia would get some additional territory and the rest of Ukraine would be free to enter the EU and create an Intermarium within the EU together with countries such as Poland.

  155. Mr. XYZ says:
    @AquariusAnon

    Ukraine can sell its music to Russians while being in the EU, no?

  156. Mr. Hack says:
    @Mr. XYZ

    how many Russians do you think are going to change their self-identification to Ukrainian on the next Ukrainian census in 2020 relative to 2001?

    Hard to say. But most ethnicities tend to blend into the local ethnicity after time. At one time, there were many Poles to be found all throughout Ukraine, not just in the Western parts, up to 10% according to AP. How many people in Ukraine today identify themselves as Polish?

    How about this compromise solution instead: Completely free and fair plebiscites are held in Crimea, the Donbass, and perhaps areas such as Mariupol to determine their future fate.

    I’m all for it. Even though I think that a greater percentage of pro-Ukrainian folks than Russian leaning folks have exited Donbas, a plebicite may not go as you might guess. Is Russia willing to put up the estimated 20 billion to rebuild this area? How about paying out the pensions to the mostly elderly that till live there? During the early part of the 2014 war, I read that Russian propagandists were promising to pay even better pensions than the Ukrainian government, like in the Crimea – don’t hear much about that today?….

    • Replies: @Mr. XYZ
  157. Mr. XYZ says:
    @Mr. Hack

    Hard to say. But most ethnicities tend to blend into the local ethnicity after time. At one time, there were many Poles to be found all throughout Ukraine, not just in the Western parts, up to 10% according to AP. How many people in Ukraine today identify themselves as Polish?

    No oblast in Ukraine has more than 3.5% of Poles nowadays:

    http://www.wikiwand.com/en/Poles_in_Ukraine

    I’m all for it. Even though I think that a greater percentage of pro-Ukrainian folks than Russian leaning folks have exited Donbas, a plebicite may not go as you might guess. Is Russia willing to put up the estimated 20 billion to rebuild this area? How about paying out the pensions to the mostly elderly that till live there? During the early part of the 2014 war, I read that Russian propagandists were promising to pay even better pensions than the Ukrainian government, like in the Crimea – don’t hear much about that today?….

    Yeah, it’s certainly extremely plausible that a lot of pro-Ukrainian people were driven out of the Donbass by the warfare there over the last five years.

  158. Mr. XYZ says:

    Also, as long as Anatoly Karlin is vigorously advocating and lobbying for this cause, Russia should eventually step up and provide the necessary reconstruction funds for the Donbass–especially if Russia were to actually annex this region.

  159. @Mr. XYZ

    But even pro-Western Ukrainians have to acknowledge that they aren’t a full “European” country. They, as AP said, are the bridge between Poland and Russia. If we look at cities like Rivne and Vinnytsia, they look more similar to Russian ones than Lviv.

    They can be pro-Western without being a part of the West, while retaining fair to good relations with Russia. See Moldova and post-2013 Georgia. Ukraine can easily be one of these countries but 10 times the size.

    Austria and Finland were neutral, but pro-Western countries during the Cold War. Economically they were definitely integrated with the West. Ukraine’s goal can be to strive to be a Cold War Austria while starting out as a modern day Georgia/Moldova.

    Its very important for EU-Russia to resume being strategic partners. To prevent vassalage by China and to be the main 21st century mediator, Russia needs strong relationships with as many countries/powers as it can. And the EU is definitely one of them. And for this to happen, Ukraine has to be neutral.

    Furthermore, strong EU-Russia relations can help the EU revert to nationalism, sovereignty, overhaul of national policies and kebab removal. While Russia won’t directly help the EU doing that, all the EU needs now is to throw off the American neoliberalism.txt yoke.

    • Replies: @Mr. XYZ
  160. Mr. XYZ says:
    @AquariusAnon

    But even pro-Western Ukrainians have to acknowledge that they aren’t a full “European” country. They, as AP said, are the bridge between Poland and Russia. If we look at cities like Rivne and Vinnytsia, they look more similar to Russian ones than Lviv.

    Is it really that surprising, though? I mean, Rivne and Vinnytsia were under Russian rule much longer than Lviv was.

    On a similar vein, I wouldn’t be surprised if, say, Algiers or Oran has more European influences than, say, Rabat has due to the longer period of European rule in these cities.

    They can be pro-Western without being a part of the West, while retaining fair to good relations with Russia. See Moldova and post-2013 Georgia. Ukraine can easily be one of these countries but 10 times the size.

    AFAIK, Moldova and post-2013 Georgia still want to join the European Union. I’m not sure about joining NATO, though.

    Austria and Finland were neutral, but pro-Western countries during the Cold War. Economically they were definitely integrated with the West. Ukraine’s goal can be to strive to be a Cold War Austria while starting out as a modern day Georgia/Moldova.

    So, you do want Ukraine to be economically integrated with the West?

    Also, what exactly is wrong with Ukraine being a modern-day Finland? After all, Russia didn’t go ballistic over Finland’s EU membership and, so far, Finland has declined to join NATO.

    Its very important for EU-Russia to resume being strategic partners. To prevent vassalage by China and to be the main 21st century mediator, Russia needs strong relationships with as many countries/powers as it can. And the EU is definitely one of them. And for this to happen, Ukraine has to be neutral.

    Furthermore, strong EU-Russia relations can help the EU revert to nationalism, sovereignty, overhaul of national policies and kebab removal. While Russia won’t directly help the EU doing that, all the EU needs now is to throw off the American neoliberalism.txt yoke.

    I thought that Anatoly Karlin previously said that Russia doesn’t have much to fear from China?

    Also, how about Russia itself joins the EU? That way, it can be reunited with Ukraine and perhaps with Belarus as well inside of the EU.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    , @AquariusAnon
  161. Mr. Hack says:
    @Mr. XYZ

    Also, how about Russia itself joins the EU? That way, it can be reunited with Ukraine and perhaps with Belarus as well inside of the EU.

    I don’t think so. Russian oligarchs (including Putler) don’t want Brussels’ bureaucrats looking over their shoulders and up their crotch looking for any ‘corrupton’ infractions. Life is good for Russia’s elite as it is, why rock the boat this radically?

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
    , @AquariusAnon
  162. @Mr. Hack

    I don’t think so. Russian oligarchs (including Putler) don’t want Brussels’ bureaucrats looking over their shoulders and up their crotch looking for any ‘corrupton’ infractions. Life is good for Russia’s elite as it is, why rock the boat this radically?

    The EU and America mind the wrong kind of corruption, but they don’t have any problem with the acceptable kind.

  163. @Mr. XYZ

    China won’t invade or turn against Russia, at least not with the offensive war-shy CCP in power, which will last at least most of our lifetimes.

    What Russia does have to fear is if it fails to cultivate economic ties with Japan and South Korea, the only 2 industrialized countries that are serious about having a better relationship with Russia (though only South Korea has the hope of becoming a close partner here), then it will be left with a China-centric economy.

    Not only enterprising and cunning Chinese businessmen would jump at the chance of taking advantage of a highly China-centric nation of 150 million and unlimited natural resources straddling Europe and the homeland, but also being overly dependent on an up-and-coming Great Power for economic relations will tie its hands in geopolitics and economic relations with other countries, especially those hostile to China.

    For Russia to be truly independent, it has to be close to at least a couple of anti-China nations.

    And yes, Ukraine should economically integrate itself both with the West AND Russia. Its the natural bridge between the EU and Russia, and if it pulls that off well, this might turn Ukraine into one of the greatest economic miracles of the 21st century.

  164. @Mr. Hack

    Russia in the EU while not succumbing to “European Values” would be the outcome I wish the most by far.

    This will also give the European people full sovereignty and ammo against the US and China, while being truly able to break away from neoliberalism.txt, which Catholic Europe is starting to get ready to do so.

    • Replies: @dfordoom
  165. dfordoom says: • Website
    @AquariusAnon

    Russia in the EU while not succumbing to “European Values” would be the outcome I wish the most by far.

    If you join the EU you will succumb to “European Values” – that’s why countries like Poland are already doomed.

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