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PEW Confirms "Soviet Freezer" Theory
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There’s a few theories that I push over and over again when discussions on European social trends come up:

  1. Communism was a “deep freezer” that conserved antediluvian (“based” in our lingvo) social attitudes in Eastern Europe, at least relative to countries under the American sphere of influence.
  2. These attitudes express themselves particularly strongly on LGBT, immigration, and nationalism.
  3. Russia is an organic part of this East European space (so a corollary is that any long-term democratic successor to Putin will be a right-wing populist in the mold of Orban or Netanyahu).
  4. The deep freezer broke down with the fall of Communism, with the subsequent thaw bringing “conserved” nationalist sentiments (or Islamist ones) to the surface.
  5. Consequent integration into the Euro-Atlantic information space – if to variable degrees – has promoted progressive views (“GloboHomo” in our lingvo) in Eastern Europe.
  6. There is now a race between new conversions to GloboHomo and the rate at which it is vindicated or discredited in its American and West European “early adopters.”

The latest PEW poll on social attitudes in Europe provides some of the strongest evidence for points #1-#3

map-europe-islam-marriage

Clear west-east gradient on openness to marrying into Muslim families.

Note that Russia is basically equivalent to Poland, so that puts the kibosh on any Eurasianist fantasies about merging with Central Asia.

poll-marriage-jews-islam

Curiously, there is relatively less openness amongst Russians in the 18-34 y/0 bracket to marrying Jews than the average for Eastern Europe, even though they are also more philo-Semitic than everyone there except Czechs, Estonians, and Latvians.

map-europe-gay-marriage

Support for gay marriage displays an even starker east-west gradient.

The big exception is East Germany and Czechia, which are explained by local cultural quirks (e.g. Prague had a reputation for being a gay friendly city even during the late Soviet period); as well as Greece in the Western sphere (which, however, is still more progressive than its Balkan neighbors).

Incidentally, the Ukraine used to be more homophobic than Russia even just 5 years ago (at least as proxied by support for gay marriage). Now it’s visibly more LGBT friendly, four years after the Maidan. Belorussians have always been more liberal on this question.

poll-europe-religion

Eastern Europe, especially the f.USSR, is the only region where Christianity has actually made concrete gains (more people currently Christian than raised as Christian).

Western Europe has undergone a deChristianization that the League of Militant Atheists could only dream of.

poll-europe-religion-2

Most of Eastern Europe professes at least as much religiosity now as the most stereotypically religious nations of Western Europe, such as Italy and Ireland.

poll-europe-nationalism

Rather unsurprising that the Scandinavians give the highest priority to “respecting institutions/laws” as a condition of sharing a national identity. Notable that only 62% of Ukrainians and 54% of Belorussians consider “ability to speak the national language” as important. That’s relative to 86% in Russia.

In contrast, all East Europeans do put a very high premium on ancestry, while Sweden Yes is conspicuously at the very bottom.

Commenter Polish Perspective has also commented on these polls.

Yes, we can see that the Hajnal Line explanations do play a substantial role – e.g., Portugal, Italy, and especially Greece are rather conservative relative to Western Europe – but these effects are swamped by the effects of the Iron Curtain, as well as local effects (e.g. Poland vs. Czechia on religiosity, whose roots may stretch back to more than half a millennium). To which JayMan would rejoinder, “But where does Communism come from?” (Answer: From where the Red Army met the US Army in 1945).

 
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  1. Anonymous[974] • Disclaimer says:

    In the long run, nothing but nothing destroys religiosity more than ‘liberal’s hard core American style winner-takes-all corporate capitalism.
    Given enough time and pervasiveness, it’s guaranteed to kill religion, stone dead, forever, in the same way that Domestic® ‘kills germs dead’.

    I can only hypothesis that the inherent nature of U.S. style Darwinian capitalism has an enormous demoralizing and deracinating effect on the ‘consumers’ forced into the leveraged capitalist accumulating rat race.

    The implications of this are all rather profound. Despite all the bally-hoo about ‘Islamism’ I expect that US capitalism will, in the long run, ‘triumph’ in eliminating islam, due to the fact in winner-takes-all highly capitalized societies, which doubtless due consumer pressure will dominate in Islamic lands, the same extreme incitement of money, and the fact that US corporatism soon puts the unproductive ‘in their place’ will have the same effect, as it had elsewhere.

    If you don’t believe me, look at the porn industry.

  2. AP says:

    Excellent and interesting post.

    Incidentally, the Ukraine used to be more homophobic than Russia even just 5 years ago (at least as proxied by support for gay marriage). Now it’s visibly more LGBT friendly, four years after the Maidan.

    It’s a 4% difference, 86% to 82% opposition to gay marriage Russia vs. Ukraine. So a trend but not a strong one.

    I strongly suspect that in Russia, negative attitude toward homosexuality has become a tribal marker demonstrating opposition to the West, whereas in Ukraine it is pretty much just the traditional view. Thu attitudes become more negative in Russia and stay the same or drift slightly less negative in Ukraine.

    Notable that only 62% of Ukrainians and 54% of Belorussians consider “ability to speak the national language” as important.

    Well, there is an “English-speaking Dublin” effect among many Ukrainian nationalists.

    OT but Constantinople is saying the right things about religion in Ukraine:

    https://risu.org.ua/en/index/all_news/orthodox/constantinople_patriarchy/73310/

    Archbishop Job thinks the new Church will be called “Orthodox Church in Ukraine.”

    Not the Ukrainian Orthodox Church, because the church is the only one … It belongs to Christ, and not to a nation or a state,” he says.

    “In Greek, the names of the churches sound like: Orthodox Church in Greece, Serbia, Bulgaria. The Slavic names – Bulgarian, Serbian or Russian Orthodox Church – are used incorrectly and indicate ethnophyletism, that is, religious nationalism, explains Archbishop Job.

    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
  3. notanon says:

    we can see that the Hajnal Line explanations do play a substantial role

    the Hajnal effect may be the same thing (media space) from a different pov – if the hajnal outbreeding process lead to a more universalist and less familial morality and if universalist morality leads to a tendency to look for a single commonly accepted moral authority then the triumph of globohomo among the hajnal populations would fit the post-war victory of the US media over Christianity in the battle for moral dominance.

    (if correct the critical point here is that the commonly accepted morality among “hajnal” populations can change on a dime any time the media’s dominance is weakened)

    (in general not sure that’s such a good thing but currently useful)

    • Replies: @Nznz
  4. @AP

    Excellent and interesting post.

    Thanks.

    I strongly suspect that in Russia, negative attitude toward homosexuality has become a tribal marker demonstrating opposition to the West, whereas in Ukraine it is pretty much just the traditional view.

    There’s probably something to that, but I’m not sure it’s the main reason. The collapse in pro-LGBT attitudes began in the late 2000s, after having drifted slowly up since 1991. That period included Medvedev’s “reset”, when relations were better than during the “New Cold War” period of the late 2000s. But that was also when the Russian state began making LGBT a culture war issue. Relations became extremely poisonous after 2014 ofc, but I think homophobia had already maxed out by then.

    OT but Constantinople is saying the right things about religion…

    Yes, the claim that Turkish Army reserve officer Bart has the authority to revoke ROC’s autocephaly, and the implied threat that he’d (try to) do it if the standoff lasts long enough, was very “powerful.” :)

    • Replies: @AP
  5. szopen says:

    You won’t convince Jayman. He was asking “where communism came from” and I was answering “from Red Army bayonettes” since the times he was commenting in HBDChick blog. That’s, like, five years or so and he still is not convinced.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    , @Anonymous
  6. Russia is remarkably close to both Ukraine and Belarus on ethnocentrism when linked to citizenship. All three see a net fall in ethnocentrism among the young. For Russia’s youth it could be a demographic effect, but the case for that in Belarus or Ukraine is weaker. Belarus in particular is seeing a fairly big fall. All three countries are now “only” as ethnocentric as the best in Western Europe, such as Italy, though notably lower than in Portugal. Not a good sign.

    Russia’s numbers on moslems is also somewhat disappointing. Poland has virtually no muslims of any significant size (mostly tatars and a very minor pockets of chechens), yet it is on par with Russia. More contact leads to more conflict, at least when faced with incompatible cultures/religions. You’d think that given all the grievances that Russians supposedly have with central asians, that there’d be a bigger pushback. Apparently not! Belarus, for reasons that escape me, is much more hardline on the moslem question. Anyone venture a guess? The meme is that they are supposed to be more ‘liberal’.

    Czechia is the big puzzle to me. They are very hardline on Islam but take a fairly (comparatively) liberal view on citizenship. Slovakia is an even bigger shock. Their numbers are outright liberal – in an EE context – across the board. This is a country that has an actual far-right party in parliament (Kotleba). It’s hard for me to reconcile that, unless their far-right is superbly organised – and contained. Romania has excellent levels of ethnocentrism (close to Hungary-levels) and is quite hardcore on most other issues. It’s also among the most religious in EE. Over three times(!) as many Romanians say religion is ‘very important’ than for Russians. Very few Russians are actually religious in a meaningless sense. In fact, Russia is about as religious as many Northern European countries, and even less than some of them. Pretty hilarious. Muh Christian revival! (Sarcasm aside, I unironically approve of this).

    The silver lining for Western Europeans is that despite a few outliers like Sweden, there are still substantial amounts of young people who have an ethnocentric view, at least when pushed on the issue. The numbers for the UK and Austria are impressive. I knew that Austria would do well, but I did not expect the Brits to do quite as well. The numbers for France look decent, too, especially the extreme idelogical programming that they are put through for decades now. Perhaps the swan song is not quite yet sung for these countries, but the clock is ticking.

  7. …so that puts the kibosh on any Eurasianist fantasies about merging with Central Asia.

    These ‘Eurasianist fantasies’ involve strict borders and open trade, not some melting pot babelist madness. Eurasianists believe in making money and world peace, not miscegenation. (But still wrong, of course, because Islam and peace are incompatible.)

    Communism was a “deep freezer” that conserved antediluvian (“based” in our lingvo) social attitudes in Eastern Europe, at least relative to countries under the American sphere of influence.

    Not surprising once you realize that Soviet Communism was a right-wing ideology, by 20th century standards. The CPSU was to the right of the American Republican Party on practically every issue.

    The Russian Civil War was a mess, and the only way the Bolsheviks could win was by adopting popular right-wing ideas. (Which was ultimately their downfall, mixing right-wing ideology and socialism is retarded and patently hypocritical. The ever-present feeling of hypocrisy was a leading reason why the USSR collapsed.)

    • Replies: @Nznz
    , @notanon
  8. Nznz says: • Website
    @anonymous coward

    How do these changes occur, how does a society like Australia or Canada switch from white racialism to multiracialism in the space of a few years, unless you want to subscribe to conspiracy theories like flouridization? And how does a society go from pro LGBT to anti LGBT memes, especially among the youth, without resorting to such things as grape or canister shotting gay pride parades or the Tiananmen square solution to color revolutions?

    • Replies: @notanon
    , @Anon
    , @dfordoom
  9. AP says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    “I strongly suspect that in Russia, negative attitude toward homosexuality has become a tribal marker demonstrating opposition to the West, whereas in Ukraine it is pretty much just the traditional view.”

    There’s probably something to that, but I’m not sure it’s the main reason. The collapse in pro-LGBT attitudes began in the late 2000s, after having drifted slowly up since 1991.

    I think there are two processes involved: the Soviet freezer, as you accurately described and which links Russia with Ukraine and the rest of eastern Europe, and the tribal marker of “pro-gay = pro-West” which separates Russia from the rest of eastern Europe and makes it less supportive of gays than are the other eastern European countries.

    The collapse in pro-LGBT attitudes began in the late 2000s, after having drifted slowly up since 1991.

    In the early 1990s the West seems to have been more homophobic than was Russia; I remember Russian students at that time looking down on American homophobes and tolerating gays more (i.e., expressing tolerance for Tchaikovsky’s sexual orientation as a way of being better than Americans. and taking over a college towns’s gay disco for a few years, making the gays rather uncomfortable).

    I suspect that if the West had stayed homophobic, Russia would have gone more fully pro-gay.

    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
  10. Nznz says: • Website

    Is sexual orientation changeable, does conversion therapy actually work, is gay people are basically born that way, and their sexual orientation is fixed, what sense does it make to ostracize the LGBT community? If sexual orientation is fixed and unchangeable, doesn’t discriminating against gay people make as much sense as discrimination against people with Huntington’s disease or people with cystic fibrosis?

    • Replies: @notanon
    , @dfordoom
  11. @AP

    I agree with the first point, though I still maintain that this was consciously chosen as a wedge issue by the kremlins – who don’t really personally care one way or another. If some other issue had been chosen, then Russia’s numbers today might be comparable to Poland, as they were a decade ago (I had a blog post on that).

    The second point is nonsense, sorry. Something like 35% of Russians thought gays should be liquidated in 1989.

    http://www.unz.com/akarlin/no-rainbow-in-russia/

    West were still homophobes back then but nowhere near to that extent.

    • Replies: @AP
    , @AP
  12. AP says:
    @Polish Perspective

    Russia is remarkably close to both Ukraine and Belarus on ethnocentrism when linked to citizenship. All three see a net fall in ethnocentrism among the young.

    Not really. In Belarus it is minus 8% and in Russia minus 4%, but in Ukraine it is only minus 1%. Young Ukrainians are nearly as ethnocentric as old ones.

    All three countries are now “only” as ethnocentric as the best in Western Europe, such as Italy, though notably lower than in Portugal.

    Italy and Portugal are seeing much steeper drops among the youth (-11% and -9%, respectively).

  13. Anonymous[337] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anonymous

    In the long run, nothing is more soul destroying than ‘neo-liberal’ Economist style American corporate consumer capitalism.

    That’s why all religion is doomed.

    • Replies: @Anon
  14. @Polish Perspective

    There are three sorts of Muslims in Russia -

    1. Civilized Tatars, Bashkirs, etc. who might as well be Christian or atheist Russians in behavior.

    2. Lower IQ but largely placid (like Central Americans in the US) Central Asian Gastarbeiters.

    3. Truly problematic DICh. But they might be more associated with ethnicity than Islam per se.

    Also Muslims are almost as rare as in Poland across large parts of provincial Russia.

    • Replies: @g2k
  15. AP says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    The second point is nonsense, sorry. Something like 35% of Russians thought gays should be liquidated in 1989.

    http://www.unz.com/akarlin/no-rainbow-in-russia/

    1. My sample were mostly educated Russians from elite families who studied abroad. The 35% were presumably people from provincial areas for whom gays were almost unheard of or mythical creatures (I remember meeting one such person, who liked the music of the Pet Shot Boys, arguing that no way were they homosexuals when I teased him about them). Today elite Russians are much more homophobic than they were in the early 90s.

    2. I suspect the early 90s were different from the late 80s. From “Little Vera” to the debauchery of the Yeltsin era was a wide gulf.

    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
  16. @AP

    My personal impression is that it is the elite Russians who have become far less homophobic, even during the past decade.

    I talked about this with a person who was in the LiveJournal scene for almost two decades now (pretty high IQ community). It was OK and common to mock homosexuals call them faggots etc a decade ago. But that would be considered boorish today.

    I think it is older, lower IQ (basically TV watchers) who have become more homophobic.

    • Replies: @Nznz
    , @AP
  17. Nznz says: • Website
    @Anatoly Karlin

    How do you stop this cultural rot?

  18. notanon says:
    @Nznz

    demolish the moral authority of the US media

    US media’s moral authority = massive size of megaphone x *trust*

    reduce people’s trust in the US media to zero -> their moral authority trends to zero

  19. notanon says:
    @anonymous coward

    These ‘Eurasianist fantasies’ involve strict borders and open trade, not some melting pot babelist madness. Eurasianists believe in making money and world peace, not miscegenation.

    that’s what the EU said

    The Russian Civil War was a mess, and the only way the Bolsheviks could win was by adopting popular right-wing ideas.

    globohomo was fully implemented in Russia after 1917 and it led to tens of thousands of abandoned children on the streets by the 1920s so Stalin abolished it.

    • Replies: @anonymous coward
  20. Anonymous[119] • Disclaimer says:

    There is no “deep freezer”, only anglo-jewish satanist conspiracy that attacks every non-indepedent country. Fool.

    • Replies: @utu
  21. notanon says:
    @Nznz

    How do these changes occur

    blank slate ideology from academia
    false data from the media
    bribery and blackmail of the political class by the banking mafia

    a lot of it is the same sort of thing spy agencies do to subvert countries

  22. g2k says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    I think you’re missing out the northwest Caucasus peoples; Karachays, Balkars Cherkess etc. There’s about 3 million of them and they’re probably between 1 and 3. Dagestan itself has a big north south divide between the turkic lowland peoples and the ones living in the mountainous south who might as well be Afghans.

  23. notanon says:
    @Nznz

    globohomo isn’t really about being pro-gay – it’s about demolishing traditional morality and any sense of “normalcy” (as destroying normalcy destroys social cohesion)

    you could have a society that promotes trad morality and pro-natalism as the social priority and also tolerates homosexuality but that’s not what globohomo wants.

    • Replies: @Nznz
    , @Nznz
  24. AP says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    It seems clear that in this case my personal sample doesn’t match the general situation.

    I found more data:

    In 1994, 46% of Americans felt that homosexuality should be accepted by society (vs. 49% opposed):

    http://www.people-press.org/2012/02/07/growing-public-support-for-same-sex-marriage/

    I haven’t seen data for Russia in 1994. In 1999, 29% of Russians felt gays should be left alone, 16% felt they should be given help, 15% liquidated, 23% isolated. Attitudes got worse after 1999, so it’s likely they were more positive in the mid nineties than in 1999.

    Overall, Russia was less accepting of gays than was the USA in the mid 90s, but they were close enough that Russian students were more accepting of gays than was the general US population. Therefore the young elite Russians in the USA sneering at American homophobes were being a bit hypocritical.

    If, for some reason, the West had gotten real homophobic after the 90s, do you think Russia would have become more accepting of gays? I suspect so.

    • Replies: @songbird
    , @Philip Owen
  25. Slovakia is an even bigger shock. Their numbers are outright liberal – in an EE context – across the board. This is a country that has an actual far-right party in parliament (Kotleba). It’s hard for me to reconcile that, unless their far-right is superbly organised – and contained.

    Well, the ballot box doesn’t always match up well to public opinion polls. Slovaks may be willing to accept small numbers of outsiders as “Slovak”, but not mass migration flows.

    The interesting thing to me about Slovakia is less that Kotleba’s party is in parliament (they’re outright pro-Nazi, at least to some degree, and are pretty disreputable, they won seats in 2016 largely as a protest vote). The more interesting thing is that ethnocentric / anti-migration views are integrated in the political mainstream, both in the form of the Social Democrats (Fico, who said “every Muslim in this country is under surveillance”, is on the Left) and in the form of the Slovak National Party, the two of them are currently in coalition.

    It’s kind of amusing to me that the Slovak National Party was toxic (along with the communists) to all the ‘decent’ political dissidents in 1990, and was still toxic to the European social democrats back in the early 2000s, and today everyone accepts the Social Democrat / Nationalist coalition without a murmur, and is just happy that Kotleba’s party hasn’t done better.

  26. g2k says:
    @Polish Perspective

    The uk has a very strong class system and ethnocentrism peters out exponentially once you start to get above lower-middle class (or working class if talking about millenials), so these figures shouldn’t be taken at face value. Nearly all chavs are ethnocentric. The influence of these people on the political direction of the country will be negligible, or even negative. University “Ruggerbuggers” (English equivalent of the college jock) who end up in the military or finance are the only large group from the upper/upper-middle class largely exempt from this. I’ve spent the last half-decade mostly amongst foreigners in stem academia and it’s only very recently that I’ve spent any time at all amongst elite English millenials and was absolutely gobsmacked by the level of pc.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  27. Nznz says: • Website
    @notanon

    But the problem with just leaving them alone is that they tend to congregate in fields that have a heavy influence culture like the arts, academe, and the media, where they can spread their pro LGBT ideology among the population through their presence, I don’t know what the solution is.

  28. @Anonymous

    Why then is Christianity so much stronger in America than in Sweden?

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  29. songbird says:
    @AP

    Gayness may be a tribal marker, but it is not just one. It is also a proxy for diversitarianism (well encapsulated in the rainbow flag). And it is probably triggered by the Left’s inherent blank-slatism plus an certain threshold of enriched population.

    This threshold isn’t purely a separate process in each country – it is regional, or is influenced by networks of people interacting. There is a push by the centers of media – Hollywood, London, Paris, etc. Plus from personal relationships and travel, so, for instance, you get the Irish Left, going diversitarian even though they haven’t as yet crossed the original US threshold of enrichment.

    The key to understanding the Left in my view is that it has its own language, which evolves. The words are all interconnected through the grammar which involves signaling egalitarianism. The Anglosphere is so large, the English script so easy to communicate in compared to Chinese. The world so interconnected that the language of the Western Left has transformed into something truly monstrous, whereas historically it had enormous limitations, when much of it operated at the village level. Egalitarianism as a resource strategy simply was not evolved for a technologically advanced world.

  30. Nznz says: • Website
    @notanon

    What makes you think that LGBTs would be happy with this gay dhimmitude anyway?

    • Replies: @notanon
  31. Anon[117] • Disclaimer says:
    @Nznz

    They went from being English to British to NW Euro Only to Europe (White) Only to w/e

    It was a long drawn out process. Even now it’s not like the average person will say they want literally unrepentant Isis fighters as immigrants.

    The internet both underestimates how RW people are, overestimates how LW they are & significantly overhypes the role of ideology in Social interaction.

    Do you really think women do not flock to a Tall, Muscular RW Man over some PC Dweeb?

    The Internet RW has a severe case of Hajnal Autism due to the lingering effects of christ cuckery.

    They forget that a tapestry of interlinked & interacting ‘spheres’ is how society works.

    Not some God Emperor Single Morality Bs.

    Even the Great Bastard was eventually split into 3 Gods

    • Replies: @Fidelios Automata
  32. Anon[117] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anonymous

    No, because a top 1% bench press has higher reproductive success than a top 1% income & that will NEVER change

  33. @Anonymous

    Let’s hope so! Though I don’t really want religion dead, just deprived of any political power. If believing in some invisible spirit gives your life meaning, more (non-political) power to you!

    • Replies: @Anon
  34. Anonymous[110] • Disclaimer says:
    @g2k

    To a man, the lower class English absolutely could not give a shit about religion.

    • Replies: @Philip Owen
  35. Anonymous[110] • Disclaimer says:
    @John Gruskos

    Legacy population, blacks, Hispanics, hillbillies etc.

  36. utu says:
    @Anonymous

    The deep freezer concept is good but has one shortcoming because it normalizes Sodoma and Gomorrah.

    Your point that Sodoma and Gomorrah are not the result of organic natural development but a product of some “conspiracy” should definitively be considered. How do the NGO’s operate and where do they get money form? How and by whom the activists are trained? Most importantly where the agenda is being set?

  37. melanf says:

    Note that Russia is basically equivalent to Poland

    If these data are correct, Russia is not the equivalent of Poland. Historically, 10% of the population in Russia is Muslim ( there are no Muslims in Poland). Another 4-5 % of the population of Russia are “ethnic Muslims”, i.e. agnostics or atheists originating from the peoples historically professing Islam. Obviously these 15% (Muslims and ethnic Muslims together) should not (in their majority) have objections against Muslim relatives . But then 34-15=19%, i.e. Russians (and other non-Muslim peoples of Russia) are much more Islamophobic than Рoles.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    , @Anatoly Karlin
  38. Anonymous[226] • Disclaimer says:
    @melanf

    ‘There are no Muslims in Poland’.

    There soon *WILL* be.

    Courtesy of the fucking EU.

  39. notanon says:
    @Nznz

    maybe they won’t -i’m saying homosexual dhimmitude (neat way of putting it) is one possibility

    • Replies: @songbird
  40. songbird says:
    @notanon

    Ideally one would send them to an island where their anti-civilizational impulses could be contained and held in check with their natural low TFR constantly making room for more gay settlers. Instead of what is happening now, with them inviting in high TFR political allies.

    It would probably be an attractive destination to them too. Although, perhaps what they really want is to rule others and to try to turn them gay.

  41. melanf says:

    There are three sorts of Muslims in Russia -

    The average European Islamohater has the motto “I hate Muslims”.
    The Average Russian Islamohater has the motto “I hate Muslims except Tatars and Bashkirs”
    In Russia, it is necessary to clarify which “Muslims” are mentioned in the survey. To different “Muslims” attitude is completely different

    Here are the statistics whom women marry:
    Tatar — 69.8% marry Tatars, 20.6% Russian, 4.7% Bashkirs
    Chuvash — 69.7% marry Chuvash, 23.6% Russian, 2.4% Tatar

    Chuvash is a Turkic people (like Tatars), but professing Christianity. However, the Chuvash and the Tatars have the same degree of intermarriage with the Russians. That is, Islam has almost no influence on relations with the Tatars.

    • Agree: Anatoly Karlin
  42. @AP

    There was a strand of “we are not bourgeois” amongst Soviet intellectuals especially in the performing arts. The working oik in Russia was like working oiks elsewhere.

  43. @Anonymous

    Not met man ex coal miners then? They are not perhaps majority religious but you can find the religious there. County Durham has a good church attendance rate. It’s not uniform. Wales is particularly non religious, as it was previously Non Conformist.

  44. I haven’t broken the habit of commenting here yet although frequency is done.

    A visit to a Russian home is like a visit to my grandmother (upper working class). There is a definite feel of the 1920′s ar even pre War (one) about mannerisms (the emphasis on shoes off and hand washing but much more besides) and physical objects (bone china tea cups). The Russian image of Brits is quite pre WW1 too. Sherlock Holmes, Mary Poppins and H G Wells, tweed jackets and a certain style of car (style that contains retro references).

    • Replies: @g2k
  45. @melanf

    These questions were only asked of non Muslims.

  46. Anon[117] • Disclaimer says:
    @Fidelios Automata

    Except your secular modernisms are a variant of monotheist thought.

    I’d explain further but I don’t think you lift or make women want rape, so not worth converting?!

  47. g2k says:
    @Philip Owen

    Yes, I’ve definitely noticed this. Blue crystal wineglasses, rugs on parquet floors and sweets in a glass bowl on a table covered with lace. No samovars in daily use though, which is a shame because turks still use them, so they can’t be that impractical. Working class teapot use died in the 90s in Britain.

    Has their fine bone china industry fared any better than Stoke’s? The surviving firms in the latter seem to have consolidated and stabilised a bit, maybe rich foreigners have discovered it. There was a thread read a while back where Russian luxury industries were mentioned and china never came up. Some of the prices online would put it way up there with mulberry handbags if genuine.

  48. anon[398] • Disclaimer says:

    “willing to accept mooslims in their family”

    what a silly question. mooslims have their own families, its almost like the question is there for guilt inducing social programming

    • Agree: utu
    • Replies: @utu
  49. utu says:
    @anon

    That’s why Czechs score that low. Imo they are low on shame/guilt factor.

  50. Anonymous[276] • Disclaimer says:
    @szopen

    “from Red Army bayonettes”

    Greg Cochran said something to this effect as well. Jayman accepts everything Cochran says, so you should tell Jayman that Cochran agrees with you.

    • Replies: @notanon
  51. dfordoom says: • Website
    @Nznz

    How do these changes occur, how does a society like Australia or Canada switch from white racialism to multiracialism in the space of a few years

    Well in Australia it’s pretty much illegal to oppose multiculturalism.

    It’s pretty much illegal not to think homosexuality is awesome as well.

    Australians believe what they are told to believe. It’s an effective system. I think they used to call it totalitarianism?

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  52. dfordoom says: • Website
    @Nznz

    If sexual orientation is fixed and unchangeable, doesn’t discriminating against gay people make as much sense as discrimination against people with Huntington’s disease or people with cystic fibrosis?

    But first you’d have to prove that sexual orientation is fixed and unchangeable.

    It’s much more likely that homosexuality is a cultural thing, so discouraging homosexuality is sound common sense.

    • Replies: @Nznz
  53. Anonymous[225] • Disclaimer says:
    @dfordoom

    So, what happened to that good ol’ fashioned macho Aussie contempt and derision against ‘poofters’?

  54. Nznz says: • Website
    @dfordoom

    I do wonder why Southeast Asians have a lot more trannies per capita than Whites and Northeast Asians.

    • Replies: @notanon
  55. 5371 says:

    To provide evidence for the “freezer” theory, one would have to show a bigger gulf in social attitudes now between formerly socialist countries and western ones, than between non-western but never socialist countries and western ones. That is not even attempted here.

  56. @notanon

    globohomo was fully implemented in Russia after 1917

    Yeah, this is true. But the critical fact you miss is that it was implemented by the February revolution types, the liberal democratic types who were chased out by the Communists.

    …and it led to tens of thousands of abandoned children on the streets by the 1920s so Stalin abolished it.

    Yeah, and the abolishing was presented as a final victory of the communists over the liberal democrats.

    The October Revolution was a right-wing reaction to the February Revolution. (Both were a shitty deal for Russia, but that’s beside the point for now.)

    • Replies: @notanon
  57. LondonBob says:
    @Polish Perspective

    Surprised the British numbers are not better but then maybe the respondents are just being polite. We are an island people, we didn’t suffer the whole discrediting of nationalism thanks to not being involved with the Nazis and British private/boarding schools act like sororities in inculcating a strong group identity, explaining why the British elite is an outlier in their right wingery.

    In my experience Austrians are shaped by their experience as being a border people to the Slavic and Balkan worlds, add in the Austro-Hungarian experience and avoidance of denazification, and the hard right attitudes I have found in Austrians are easily explained.

    I guess Spanish homomania is explained by a backlash against Franco and the historically all powerful Catholic Church.

    • Replies: @Matra
    , @Anon
  58. notanon says:
    @Anonymous

    don’t the west slavs who were on the edge of hajnal line (czechia etc) show there’s not an exact overlap?

  59. @notanon

    Thanks for linking some shitty anglo clickbait site. (Not.)

    Let me educate you: Russia on the eve of the revolutions (revolutions, not revolution) had dozens of competing leftist movements of varying degrees of batshit insanity. The Russian Civil War was a war to decide which particular batshit leftist strain inherits the ruins of the Russian Empire. The Bolsheviks won this war because they were willing to compromise and cut deals with the right-wing majority of the populace. This doesn’t mean they weren’t leftists themselves, but they at least understood that leftist ‘principles’ are a political dead end.

    In that sense, the Bolsheviks were like Trump — it’s now impossible to put the genie back in the bottle and roll back the truly toxic things like gay indoctrination and feminism, but you can compromise with the deplorables on other things like nationalism and a Mexican wall, et al.

    • Replies: @notanon
  60. notanon says:
    @anonymous coward

    you’re wrong

    the bolsheviks instituted globohomo after 1917 and it was later reversed by Stalin because it didn’t work

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexandra_Kollontai

    • Replies: @anonymous coward
    , @AP
  61. Matra says:
    @LondonBob

    I guess Spanish homomania is explained by a backlash against Franco and the historically all powerful Catholic Church.

    Quebec’s embrace of “homomania”, as you put it, before English Canada did so was explained to me some 25 years ago – by a homosexual Quebecois no less – as a similar reaction to their once powerful RC Church. Homosexuality was shown as completely normal as to be unremarkable in Quebec cinema when it was still the norm to hear Anglo Canadian DJs and the occasional teacher making “fag” and AIDS jokes to their audiences. Now we are seeing the same thing in Ireland where the once very conservative Catholic population has raced well ahead of the laggardly DUP-voting Protestants. No “deep freezer” in Western Catholic countries.

  62. @notanon

    Thanks for playing “let me tell you about your country” game, but please don’t do so again.

    Kollontai was not a Bolshevik, she was denounced by Lenin and exiled from the USSR. Her sexual looseness was part of the reason, that was a line Lenin & gang didn’t want to cross. (Not that they had a beef with that personally, but political expedience was more important for them than leftist solidarity.)

  63. AP says:
    @notanon

    He’s the most consistently wrong person on here, despite not being the dumbest.

    • Replies: @anonymous coward
  64. Mr. Hack says:

    Russia is an organic part of this East European space (so a corollary is that any long-term democratic successor to Putin will be a right-wing populist in the mold of Orban or Netanyahu).

    Note that Russia is basically equivalent to Poland, so that puts the kibosh on any Eurasianist fantasies about merging with Central Asia.

    Anatoly – Russia’s destiny is closely tied to its huge expansionist movements towards the east. It’s almost hardwired into its genetic structure and a continuing feature of its blueprint for the future. Of course this idea of Russian ‘Eurasianism’ doesn’t include a scenario where a large portion of its Slavic population embraces the Moslem faith, but will continue to its own version of the white man’s burden (remember that?) via its Orthodox church. It’s a form of imperialism that offers Russia much more than a nationalistic version found in Hungary under Orban, that entails a retraction to its European borders. You might counter and offer a hybrid version of nationalistic/imperialism, but I think that it’s too late for any such nonsense in the 21st century. See how successful its been in neighboring Ukraine (Little Russia) that indeed shares a culture much closer to Russia’s than the Far East or even Siberia.

  65. melanf says:

    Of course this idea of Russian ‘Eurasianism’

    Generally speaking, there is no “Eurasionism” in Russia . This is some completely fictional political movement. It is discussed but it does not exist.

    Ukraine (Little Russia) that indeed shares a culture much closer to Russia’s than the Far East or even Siberia.

    And what is a special culture in the far East and Siberia? Do you think this culture is different from culture in Moscow or St. Petersburg?

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  66. @AP

    Here are Lenin’s direct quote w.r.t. the “sexual revolution”:

    “[it] is absolutely unmarxist and moreover antisocial”

    “Of course, a thirst requires being quenched. But would a normal man under normal circumstances lie in the street and drink from a puddle? Or even from a glass that has been soiled by dozens of lips?”

    Meanwhile, notanon’s source has this, erm, quality of commentary and thinking:

    In tsarist Russia, women were oppressed for centuries, both by capitalist exploitation and chauvinistic and patriarchal social values.

    Judge for yourself who is ‘consistently wrong’ here.

    • Replies: @notanon
    , @AP
    , @g2k
  67. notanon says:
    @anonymous coward

    the linked articles mention Lenin didn’t approve – but he didn’t stop it.

  68. Mr. Hack says:
    @melanf

    Hmmm. there is no such thing as Russian Eurasianism (both classical and Dugins styled ‘neo’) and the cultures one finds in Khabarovsk and St. Petersburg are identical (like walking from the front of a house to the porch in the back). I guess I’ll have to reevaluate my opinion…

    • Replies: @melanf
    , @Philip Owen
  69. melanf says:
    @Mr. Hack

    Hmmm. there is no such thing as Russian Eurasianism (both classical and Dugins styled ‘neo’)

    In the past there was a group of historians-emigrants (Prince Trubetskoy, George Vernadsky, etc.) who believed that the contribution of the nomadic peoples of the great steppe in the creation of Russia is underestimated. They were” classical Eurasians”. The views of “classical Eurasians” have no connection with the issues of integration with Central Asia or the policy of attracting migrants.

    Later there was a historian-visionary Lev Gumilev, who believed that the Russians are perfectly complementary to the nomads of the great steppes, but incompatible with Muslims, Western Christians, and especially Jews. As for migration, Gumilev considered migration as evil.

    Still later came the local loony Dugin. This clown is known only in the West, and in Russia he is unknown.

    The result-some dreamers exist (as exist for example ufologists), but any real movement of “Eurasianist” did not exist and does not exist. The ideas of “Eurasians” are completely unknown to 99% of the Russian population

    and the cultures one finds in Khabarovsk and St. Petersburg

    Can you explain your idea that Ukraine is culturally closer to European Russia than Siberia? (“Ukraine (Little Russia) that indeed shares a culture much closer to Russia’s than the Far East or even Siberia“)

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  70. AP says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    Something like 35% of Russians thought gays should be liquidated in 1989.

    About this high number in Russia – back in the early 90s homosexuality was often conflated with pedophilia; it was widely assumed that gays were also pedophiles, who recruited gays by sexually abusing male children. At the same time, gays were almost unknown and thought of as being extremely rare. This is why that number is so high.

    • Replies: @DFH
    , @dfordoom
  71. AP says:
    @anonymous coward

    I know people from Old Bolshevik families and that generation (their grand-parents or great-grandparents) were sexual libertines, including one of Krupskaya’s younger friends whose kids were born out of wedlock and who in old age bragged to her grandchildren about how she had many lovers and never had a husband whose socks she would have to wash. Stalinism reintroduced some conservative norms (as is practiced in North Korea) but Leninism did not. It was not the Western 60s or the Russian 90s to be sure, but by the standards of the early 20th century it was sexually very liberal.

    • Replies: @g2k
    , @anonymous coward
  72. DFH says:
    @AP

    who recruited gays by sexually abusing male children

    They weren’t wrong

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11501300

    Forty-six percent of the homosexual men in contrast to 7% of the heterosexual men reported homosexual molestation

    • Replies: @AP
  73. g2k says:
    @anonymous coward

    I can remember reading Lenin and Trotsky’s opinions on this when I was in high school, and, even then, what struck me was how naive and disjointed they were, and how much of a joyless ghoul Lenin was. They unanimously agreed that traditional sexual morality should be abolished but divied the reasons why into “bourgeois” and “proletarian”. Basically, anything that might lead to people enjoying themselves was bourgeois, anything that contributed towards spreading comminism was proletarian.

  74. g2k says:
    @AP

    You can get it from the horse’s mouth if you have nothing better to do : https://www.marxists.org/archive/zetkin/1920/lenin/zetkin1.htm

  75. Anonymous[276] • Disclaimer says:
    @szopen

    Point him to this tweet:

  76. AP says:
    @DFH

    Thanks, very interesting. Still, more than half weren’t, and most homosexuals are not molesting kids. But this research seems to show that there is a kernal of truth in that story.

    • Replies: @Anon
  77. @Mr. Hack

    The Tsar Nicholas I had a policy of Official Nationalism which was explicitly Eurasian. For a time he banned the study and speaking of other European languages and required Universities to teach “Chinese”. He even set up a school in Shanghai to teach Russians to speak Chinese. The policy failed. However, as with all such things, this triggered a movement “Eurasianism” that refused to die.

    • Replies: @melanf
  78. To provide evidence for the “freezer” theory, one would have to show a bigger gulf in social attitudes now between formerly socialist countries and western ones, than between non-western but never socialist countries and western ones.

    Greece and Finland escaped the “freezer” and are more culturally liberal than former Communist countries today (although less so than the core western nations). I’d argue that neither of them is really ‘western’, for different reasons, or at least that neither of them was ‘western’ prior to 1917.

    Anyway, Eastern Germany today is very different than Western Germany (less enthusiastic about democracy, more inclined to left wing economics, more opposed to ethnic and cultural diversity), which suggests the freezer had an effect (although no, I don’t think eastern and western Germans were identical prior to 1945 either).

  79. dfordoom says: • Website
    @AP

    back in the early 90s homosexuality was often conflated with pedophilia; it was widely assumed that gays were also pedophiles, who recruited gays by sexually abusing male children.

    Isn’t that pretty much true?

    • Replies: @Nznz
    , @AP
  80. Mr. Hack says:
    @melanf

    Basically, there is a much smaller representation of Asian and indigenous peoples of Uraic, Altaic, Permic and Samoyedic origin in Ukraine, thus making it closer to the populace of European Russia. Besides its own indigenous peoples in the Far East, you also have the addition of ethnic Chinese, Korean and Japanese too. I understand that Russian is the lingua-francua of these immense swaths of land, and that ethnic Russians and Ukrainians make up the majority of the populace there, but can you really totally discount the various flavors that this large Asian admixture brings to the local culture?

    • Replies: @melanf
  81. Nznz says: • Website
    @dfordoom

    Well blacks are not well liked here, and not even bull Connor would claim that half of blacks are rapists and murderers. I mean not even David Duke would say that.

    • Replies: @songbird
  82. songbird says:
    @Nznz

    Since you’ve made the connection, it’s amazing how many blacks in Africa have HIV, or are said to have it. I wonder how this rate would compare to the general pop of gays around San Fran in the ’80s.

    From what I can find, current estimates in the US put practicing gays at about 15% overall, with some metro areas in the South being around 30%. Jackson, Mississippi is 40% for practicing gays.

    Of course, it is hard to compare these numbers to Africa. Since the African numbers are generalist, and include children. But Lesotho is said to have about a quarter of its population infected. I guess the specific cohort numbers would be higher.

    And that’s pretty amazing when you consider everything involved, modes of transmission, etc. – Africans must do a lot of whoring. I’m not buying the idea that they all contracted it through vaccines.

    But both infection rates really lead one to question the homomania and negrophilia so prevalent to globalism.

  83. songbird says:

    One could probably use data to create a yearly connectome of globalism’s spread, which would predict attitudes in each country, whether pozzed or not, and, if pozzed, who is on top of the totem – gays or trannies.

    What would the data be? Trade. Media consumption from each center, interracial images in advertisements, connecting flights, college course listings, levels of international students, racial demographics. Jewish population. Average age. Level of wealth transfer, both domestic and foreign aid.

  84. AP says:
    @dfordoom

    You really think that all (or even most, or even a significant percentage) of gays are pedophiles?

    • Replies: @Nznz
    , @dfordoom
    , @Anon
  85. melanf says:
    @Philip Owen

    The Tsar Nicholas I had a policy of Official Nationalism which was explicitly Eurasian.
    For a time he banned the study and speaking of other European languages and required Universities to teach “Chinese”. He even set up a school in Shanghai to teach Russians to speak Chinese.

    Its ravings of a madman. Or is that such a weird joke?

  86. Nznz says: • Website
    @AP

    People here do not like black people or Arabs and I am sure that the percentage of them who are rapists and killers is much lower than the percentage of gay pedos.

  87. @AP

    I know people from Old Bolshevik families and that generation (their grand-parents or great-grandparents) were sexual libertines

    I know people like that too. The ones I know were very traditional in sexual mores.

    There were all kinds.

    Stalinism reintroduced some conservative norms (as is practiced in North Korea) but Leninism did not.

    To be honest, there’s no such thing as “leninism”. Lenin was a loser and opportunist who tried to be a leader but failed. I think he became the head of the commie pantheon precisely because he was such a blank-slate non-entity.

    But you miss the grander point. The Bolsheviks won the Civil War because they were right-of-center populists, like Trump or Bolsonaro. (Like Trump and Bolsonaro, this was a calculated, hypocritical ploy on their part.)

    Lenin himself had some sort of centrist self-image. It’s strange to read his constant diatribes about ‘leftism’ and ‘leftists’.

    • Replies: @Nznz
  88. melanf says:
    @Mr. Hack

    Basically, there is a much smaller representation of Asian and indigenous peoples of Uraic, Altaic, Permic and Samoyedic origin in Ukraine, thus making it closer to the populace of European Russia.

    Here is a map which shows the proportion ( % ) of Russian population. As you can see, Siberia and the far East are no different from European Russia.

    Besides its own indigenous peoples in the Far East, you also have the addition of ethnic Chinese, Korean and Japanese too.

    It’s from an alternate universe where history has taken a different path. In our universe in Russia there are no Chinese and Japanese migrants, towns on the border with China and Japan are 100% “white”. Few Chinese and Japanese expats prefer to live in Moscow and St. Petersburg.
    The majority of Russian Koreans also live in European Russia. The only exception is Sakhalin, where Koreans make up 5% of the population.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    , @Nznz
    , @Mr. Hack
  89. Anonymous[276] • Disclaimer says:
    @melanf

    What about in the Jewish Autonomous Oblast?

    • Replies: @melanf
  90. Nznz says: • Website
    @melanf

    Why wouldnt Chinese want to settle in Siberia, I mean the cities there are quite large, as large as Winnipeg or Regina, and have all the facilities of a city that size, plus it’s just across the border, and Irkutsk and Khabarovsk is not that much colder, than say, Harbin.

    • Replies: @melanf
  91. melanf says:
    @Anonymous

    What about in the Jewish Autonomous Oblast?

    This village near Russia’s border with China used to be on the verge of abandonment. But things started to change, after the arrival of two Chinese

    There is a business-the Chinese rent empty land, grow (during the summer) on these lands harvest, and in the winter go to China. But they are not migrants, and the scale of this business is small.
    Here are typical high school students in in the Jewish Autonomous area

    And this students in Blagoveshchensk (right on the border with China)
    I bet the students in Western Europe are now more Asian

    • Replies: @DFH
  92. DFH says:
    @melanf

    The girl in the front row with curly hair looks like she got a good helping of the remaining Jewish genes

    • Replies: @melanf
  93. Nznz says: • Website
    @anonymous coward

    You mean Bolsonaro is a neoliberal Hominterm Manchurian Candidate? Dunno much about Brazillian politics.

  94. Mr. Hack says:
    @melanf

    I’ve never been to the Russian Far East or to Siberia, so I’ll defer to your opinion as being more current than my own. I did, however, read the well reviewed ‘The Russian Far East: A History’ by Harvard historian John Stephan about a year ago that painted a land much more cosmopolitan than the one you’re representing:

    supposedly insular land has harbored vibrantly cosmopolitan lifestyles. For over a millennium, Chinese culture found expression in Tungus, Mongol, and Korean polities. Russian penetration in the seventeenth century eventually turned the region into a colony sustained by state subsidies, foreign enterprise, and a mosaic of Ukrainian, Estonian, Finnish, German, Chinese, Korean, and Japanese communities

    • Replies: @melanf
  95. melanf says:
    @Mr. Hack

    Russian penetration in the seventeenth century eventually turned the region into a colony sustained by state subsidies, foreign enterprise, and a mosaic of Ukrainian, Estonian, Finnish, German, Chinese, Korean, and Japanese communities

    This statement was partly true in the early 20th century. Since then, the Japanese and Chinese communities in the far East have disappeared, and the Ukrainian, Estonian, Finnish, German communities complete assimilated. Now most regions in the far East (and Siberia) are mono-ethnic Russian.

    Here is a more detailed map – the share of Russians among children under 5 years, in % of the total number of children (according to the 2010 census)

  96. melanf says:
    @Nznz

    Why wouldnt Chinese want to settle in Siberia, I mean the cities there are quite large, as large as Winnipeg or Regina

    Probably the main reason is low income. Here is a map of the official median per capita salary. By purchasing power (not by nominal exchange rate!) approximately: blue color over $ 2000, green $ 2000-1000, yellow and red-less than $1000

    If China was bordered by the “blue” regions, it is likely that the Chinese would move to these regions. But the yellow and green regions do not attract Chinese. In addition (IMHO) the absence of Chinese communities in Russia prevents the resettlement of Chinese in Russia. The Chinese probably prefer to move to where there is already a Chinese community.

  97. melanf says:
    @DFH

    The girl in the front row with curly hair looks like she got a good helping of the remaining Jewish genes

    Maybe this girl is just Jew. However looks can be deceiving.
    Here Jews in Birobidzhan celebrate Hanukkah

    Who would be able to identify these Jews as Jews?
    And it is the Jews of St. Petersburg (right now, accidentally, I saw these weird pictures on the official website of the synagogue)

    Jews from the cold climate of St. Petersburg turn into Scandinavians? Or maybe all Jews with Jewish appearance left for Israel, but” Nordic ” Jews (better adapted to cold and darkness) remained?

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    , @inertial
    , @DFH
    , @Dmitry
  98. Mr. Hack says:
    @melanf

    71% of non-Orthodox Jews now marry outside of the tribe, at least in the US, and by the looks of it something similar is going on in Russia too (has been for a long time). The rise of the Messianic Jewish movement is further evidence that traditional Jewish culture is undergoing immense changes.

  99. inertial says:
    @melanf

    Don’t know about those kids but light hair is quite common among Ashkenazi Jewish children.

    These are religious Jews from New York:

  100. DFH says:
    @melanf

    Children are often much lighter haired than adults, so it is a little misleading, although they certainly do look like they’d be paler than ordinary Jews. I often see Haredi families (like the one posted above) with light-haired children but ordinary Jewish looking parents. I believe that there is also a ginger strain among Russian Jews (of separate origin than Northern European red hair).

  101. dfordoom says: • Website
    @AP

    You really think that all (or even most, or even a significant percentage) of gays are pedophiles?

    I think you’d be shocked at the number who take an interest in young boys. I don’t mean children, but early teens. And I think you’d be even more shocked at the number who would take such an interest if they could get away with it.

  102. Dmitry says:
    @melanf

    In the photos from the famous choral synagogue in Peter, it’s obviously families which was secular but rediscovers their Jewish heritage. so many are mixed with Russian blood.

    In Israel, itself it’s a random mix of many different races. It’s not a country like Russia or Japan, with a dominant race. It tries to be like a nationalist country with “Jews” as a race. But actual result in Israel more similar to “multi-race” country like America or Canada.

    These black kids are not even illegal immigrants, but just Ethiopian Jews.

  103. Anon[130] • Disclaimer says:
    @LondonBob

    In Spain, parts of the Church were co-opted by leftist-liberal “priests” intent on weakening (or unable to uphold for personal lifestyle reasons) the moral teachings, and do not discount the existence of active Freemasons in the government. Zapatero is the most well-known, but whispers abound about Rajoy doing an about-face on specific issues after a 2010 trip to Mexico, where he was supposedly pressured. Cultural revolutions, as well as actual ones, are made by elites.

  104. Anon[312] • Disclaimer says:
    @AP

    I think, on this issue, it is wise to heed received wisdom. There’s something about the homosexual subculture that tends to novelty and extremes.. in practices (like the very modern death-wish in looking for unprotcted sex with HIV positives) and in subjects: young men, then teens, then children.

    Of course, not all gays “progress” to pedophilia.

  105. Anon[312] • Disclaimer says:
    @AP

    Pederasty, or ephebophilia = gay adult interested in young pubescent males. Teens. Used to be politely referred to as corruption of minors.

    Paedophilia = sexual pervert interested in pre-pubescent children of either sex, say 10 year olds.

    The Church’s John Jay Report shows more than 80% of cases were priest on pubescent males…

    I suspect gays occasionally branch out, a case of the slippery slope, and will accost pre-pubescent children.

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