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Remembering Slavyansk
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presentation-85-days-in-slavyansk

Today I was at the presentation of Alexander Zhuchkovsky‘s new book 85 Days in Slavyansk [buy]. The author is a Novorossiya activist and humanitarian help coordinator who is based long-term in the DNR.

Many of the big names in Russian nationalism were there:

  • On the far left is Egor Kholmogorov (see our translations of his work).
  • Next to him is Konstantin Krylov, founder of the NPD, who was once prosecuted under 282 for suggesting that it’s “time to do away with this strange economic system” (of feeding the Caucasus).
  • Next is Yury Yurchenko, a Franco-Russian poet who repatriated to fight for Novorossiya.
  • Suited man sitting in the middle is Alexander Zhuchkovsky himself.
  • Standing suited man is our GREAT LEADER himself, Igor Strelkov.
  • Sitting man in camos is “Vandal“, the youngest guy in Strelkov’s regiment in 2014. (He got the nickname thanks to his love of disassembling electronics equipment).
  • Suited man on the far right is Pavel Gubarev, the “people’s governor” of the DNR, who has been gradually sidelined from power in the republic.

I am looking forwards to reading and reviewing the book about the decisive first battle of the War in the Donbass, without which the LDNR could not have survived. Even Strelkov, a man who detests flattery, and complained about some minor errors in front of the crowd, called it “pretty good”. That is high praise, coming from him.

The other, less critically minded people on the panel called it the book of the decade.

I won’t sugarcoat things; the general mood was pretty glum. The hopes and dreams of the Russian Spring (a term coined by Kholmogorov) have failed to materialize. After the assassination of Zakharchenko, new elections were announced in the DNR, from which everyone but the Kremlin-controlled candidate of the old Yanukovych clan – Denis Pushilin, a fraudster before the war, and who has close to zero approval ratings in the Donbass – have been excluded. Pavel Gubarev himself is now barred from even entering the republic.

Strelkov himself dates the betrayal of the dream of a reunited Russia to May 25, when Putin recognized the results of the Ukrainian elections that placed Poroshenko. And he expects that the election of Tymoshenko, an outcome that is electorally likely and apparently both anticipated and welcomed by the kremlins, who entertain “delusions” that they can “do business” with her, will just end up boomeranging against them “as with Trump.”

Just to be clear this is perfectly in sync with Strelkov’s outspoken opposition towards Putin and skepticism about Russia’s trajectory, which he expects to end in a new Time of Troubles.

The “intellectuals”, Kholmogorov and Krylov, provided some historical context to if not completely dispel the gloomy atmosphere, then at least to provide some hope.

Kholmogorov compared the Battle of Slavyansk to the Battle of the Alamo; although the latter was a defeat, it provided the Americans with an inspirational call to arms (“Remember the Alamo!”), and a decade later Texas would be theirs and would in time become one of the most American of American states. Russians, too, must remember Slavyansk – until such a time that at least the Donbass, if not Novorossiya, can come back into the fold. But above all, Slavyansk wasn’t so much struggle for the Donbass, or even Novorossiya, but for a Russia that is Russian.

Krylov talked about “the politics of memory”, about how Katyn has become a Schelling point around which the Poles base their identity. He argued that the Odessa massacre must become to Russians what Katyn became to the Poles.

Independent of any political sympathies, I continue to be impressed by Strelkov as an orator and a leader – an impression I’ve had since his debate with Navalny in July 2017. He is not a politician – he promises little, and on the rare occasions that he does, he does so from the first person, instead of hiding behind “we will” and “it should”; when he can’t say something concrete about a sensitive issue, he says so forthrightly, instead of skirting around it with empty babble. As I mentioned above, he rarely praises and never flatters; but that just means that when he does hand down a grudging compliment, it actually means something.

Now Strelkov entertains no political ambitions, at least openly; nor does he have the covert sympathies of some of Russia’s “deep state” liberal technocrats within the Kremlin, as Navalny does. But I don’t exaggerate when I say that he has a greater chance of eventually becoming President than Navalny. It’s still very low, of course. That said, while I can’t imagine a President Navalny except in the most extreme scenarios, e.g. a coup of some sort, I can still just about imagine a President Strelkov – if demotist yearning for empty showmanship can be at least partially overcome. A tall call to be sure, but stranger things have happened.

 
• Category: Foreign Policy • Tags: Books, Nationalism, Russia, Ukraine, War in Donbass 
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  1. AP says:

    Krylov talked about “the politics of memory”, about how Katyn has become a Schelling point around which the Poles base their identity. He argued that the Odessa massacre must become to Russians what Katyn became to the Poles.

    The problem is that the Polish nationalist view of Katyn was real, while the Russian story of the Odessa “massacre” is a fairytale.

    It’s rather silly to compare the execution of thousands of reserve officers from Poland’s intelligenstia with 42 mostly hooligans who were burned after exchanging Molotov cocktails and losing a brawl with rival Ukrainian hooligans. But it’s very fitting, given what Donbas is compared to what Poland is.

    A chronology:

    http://khpg.org/index.php?id=1407453894

  2. 5371 says:

    If kicking Navalny’s ass in debate makes you an impressive orator and leader, then Usmanov is a great orator and leader.

  3. @AP

    while the Russian story of the Odessa “massacre” is a fairytale

    Are you insane? It was televised on live TV, you imbecile.

    • Agree: Felix Keverich
    • Replies: @Digital Samizdat
    , @AP
  4. I first took an interest in contemporary Russia around the time of the 2013 Syria gas attacks (Russia kept us out of war! — for a while, anyway) and the seething indignation it caused certain members of the Washington beltway. Then there were the protests in Ukraine, the Sochi Olympics, Ukraine coup, and so on to feed my growing interest and convince me that there was a widespread and irrational hatred of Russia rampant among Western political elites.

    Slavyansk carries a peculiar poignancy for someone who followed what happened there every day for months and expected Strelkov and his men to die for their cause.

    I read Fedorov’s account of fighting in the Donbass and hope that 85 Days also receives an English translation, though the chances are probably minimal.

    A president Strelkov — the exploding heads would make it worth seeing, whether he would make a good president or no.

    • Agree: Digital Samizdat
  5. I feel sorry for you if eulogizing these anti-Russian clowns is your new job.

  6. Aslangeo says:

    I fear that there is a desire within some elements of the russianstate to sell out the Donbass. There is a feeling that the donbass is the heart of sovokdom for whom the liberals have utter contempt. The liberasts however have very low , <5%, approval despite their disproportionate influence in media, government and business. These people should never be allowed to dominate Russia again. The main threat to the mainstream is from the nationalist side, who have far more support. This is the only real hope for the donbass survival. We must understand that there is nobody in ukropland that Russia can do business with.

  7. @anonymous coward

    Is ‘AP’ insane? Not exactly. He’s just from Lvov.

    • Replies: @anonymous coward
  8. Mr. Hack says:

    It’s quite telling that Strelkov is still fighting for his imaginary ‘NovoRosija’ in Russia somewhere, on the television and at book launches that provide for a well stocked bar and buffet table, to titillate the naive imaginations of the Karlins of this world. He does, however, seem smarter than the rest of that cachet of assorted freaks and outcasts from society. At least his instincts of preservation have saved him from the fate of his fellow ‘NovoRosija’ fanatics, Motorola and Zakharchenko. Motorola, no doubt was already forgotten as a non-entity at this gathering of clowns and misfits. And Zakharchenko and his murderers are already just a blip representing yesterday’s news. Anatoly, how in the world will you find any time to help launch Strelkov’s bid for the presidency, now that you’ve apparently found a real 9-5 gig?

    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
    , @Anon
  9. @Digital Samizdat

    He’s just from Lvov.

    He’s a third-generation immigrant from Lvov, which is even dumber.

    • Replies: @Felix Keverich
  10. @Mr. Hack

    Good to see the customary convergence between sovok (anonymous coward) and svidomism.

    No worries, it’s more of a 12-4 job. And on two days of the week.

  11. Mr. Hack says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    And you still try to appear as a non-svidomite, Anatoly? The ‘Novorosiya’ project has always been nothing more than a Russian svidomite project. Your inspiration came from the Black Hundreds movement in Ukraine, that is where today in Ukraine? :-(

    • Replies: @Anon
  12. Thanks for the information. Purely from the humanitarian point of view, one hopes the war, for such it is, is over shortly and that the DNR and LDNR are reunited with Russia, which the overwhelming majority seem to want. It’s been 4 years since the Ukrainian Coup and the resultant UDI by the DNR and LDNR. 4 years of unnecessary bloodshed.
    As you have mentioned, nearly all the Ukrainian parties are IRREDENTIST. Those that aren’t are persecuted or prevented from participating in elections. There really is no one with whom the Russian Government can negotiate , because the Ukrainian parties regard it as non-negotiable. This is likely to be the case long into the future.

  13. @anonymous coward

    I’d like to use this opportunity to remind everyone that AP is nothing, but a troll. Insulting the memory of peaceful pro-Russian activists, in a thread dedicated to (less peaceful) pro-Russian activists is classic trolling!

    It also teaches us, that language of violence and war is the only language svidomy Ukrainians like AP understand and deserve.

    • Replies: @AP
  14. Anon[422] • Disclaimer says:
    @Mr. Hack

    on the television

    Strelkov is not allowed on Russian television.

  15. Anon[422] • Disclaimer says:

    Stanislav Belkovsky says that Putin is actually OK with Poroshenko. He says that now, Putin and his relative in Ukraine, Medvedchuk will try to discredit the opposition in Ukraine.

    I highly doubt Tymoshenko has any chances to win, her electoral support regardless. Poroshenko is not going to allow her to take over, and will likely use administrative resource to achieve victory.

    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
  16. Anon[422] • Disclaimer says:
    @AP

    Russian story of the Odessa “massacre” is a fairytale.

    The problem with your fairy tale claim is that there is ample video evidence of Odessa massacre happening. Videos of nationalist apes burning people alive.

    I believe in it based on this evidence, and your denial is a case of serious dishonesty. You should be ashamed of yourself…

  17. Anon[422] • Disclaimer says:
    @Mr. Hack

    Russian svidomite project

    As a person, who popularised the term “svidomite” in the English language, I will say that the word “svidomite” refers specifically to the Ukrainian project, more specifically to the latter’s crazy part. Svidomism is a spectrum, like autism. Extreme cases of svidomism include claims such as “Ukrainians are descendants of Sumerians.” More mild include, “Russia stole the name Rus’ from us.”

    Novorossiya is a classic irredentist project in a region that as unrightfully transferred to Ukraine by Bolsheviks. Novorossiya was conquered and built by Russians, and people there (particularly in the cities) speak Russian. Hence the territory needs to be liberated and annexed by Russia.

    Sadly though, contemporary Russia is not in shape to annex a territory of 20 million people.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    , @AP
    , @Aslangeo
  18. @AP

    It’s rather silly to compare the execution of thousands of reserve officers from Poland’s intelligenstia with 42 mostly hooligans who were burned after exchanging Molotov cocktails and losing a brawl with rival Ukrainian hooligans. But it’s very fitting, given what Donbas is compared to what Poland is.

    A chronology:

    http://khpg.org/index.php?id=1407453894

    A Ukrainian nationalist website is about as credible on this topic as DNR TV. I will quote here again Richard Sakwa’s Frontline Ukraine, which has this to say:

    In Odessa in March and April a series of demonstrations and counter-demonstrations were held, accompanied by the creation of an anti-Maidan tent encampment in Kulikovo Pole (Kulikov Field) with some 300 activists. On 2 May a pro-Maidan demonstration was organised in the city centre, including nationalist ‘ultra’ fans from the Chernomorets Odessa and Metalist Kharkov football teams, who had played earlier. Permission was granted to hold what would obviously be a controversial event. Some 1,500 demonstrators marched through the city centre chanting ‘Glory to Ukraine’ and ‘Death to enemies’, as well as the now obligatory ‘Knife the Moskals’ (‘Moskals’ being a derogatory term for Russians), long the slogan of nationalist students in Lviv and elsewhere. The procession was assaulted by people allegedly from the anti-Maidan group. The attackers, as well as some policemen, were marked with red tags – and it was precisely these who began the shooting. They were let through the police chain, and when the shooting started there are pictures of such red-tagged provocateurs standing with police officers. On the other side, the Maidan militants were led by Right Sector, some 500 of whom had arrived earlier in the city, along with the Maidan leader, Parubiy.

    Several hundred ultras now assaulted the encampment in Kulikov Field, burning the tents and driving the anti-Maidan protesters into the adjacent five-storey, Soviet-style trade union building. Right Sector militants threw Molotov cocktails and set fire to the building, and beat back protesters with clubs and knives as they tried to escape the flames. There are suggestions that the protesters were beaten, raped and killed before the fire took hold, with a strange pattern to the flames, concentrated on the first and third floors. Those trapped inside heard the Ukrainian nationalists compare them to the black-and-red-striped potato beetle called Colorado, the colour of the St George ribbons: ‘Burn, Colorado, burn.’ They clubbed to death those who survived when they jumped out of windows, accompanied by chants of ‘Glory to Ukraine!’ and ‘Death to enemies!’ The official figures state that 48 died (seven women and 41 men) and 247 were injured, whereas local reports suggest that several hundred were consumed by the fire or died by violence. Two days later the police headquarters was stormed to release the 67 pro-Russian activists who had been detained in the fighting. The website of the Right Sector leader Dmytro Yarosh hailed the massacre as ‘another bright day in our national history’, while a Svoboda MP exclaimed, ‘Bravo, Odessa […] Let the devils burn in hell.’23 The vigilante violence that began on the Maidan now affected the rest of the country. This was a terrible crime by people masquerading as ‘democrats’ on the road to Europe.

    What strikes me when reading Sakwas’s take is how deeply irrational it would be for the pro-federalists to decide to go head to head with the Maidanites on the very day when the latter group is heavily bolstered by extra muscle (300 pro-federalists vs. 2,000 Maidanites, among whom 500 are battle-hardened Right-Sector thugs). It does, however, make a good deal of sense for the Maidanites.

    The second thing to strike me is that all this violence is perfectly explainable by the kinds of people — former prison inmates, known ultra-fascists — that the Maidanites employed to suppress dissent. The same logic goes for the killing and maiming of civilians in the Donbass. Of course these people will kill and maim when given absolute power over the locals. That’s their nature. Note also the language the Maidanites employ here (“Death to enemies,” “Knife the Moskals”). This is the language of someone who can’t wait to get killing.

    • Replies: @AP
  19. @Anon

    Poroshenko can use the admin resource to catapult himself past Gritsenko to second place, but while Gritsenko has a chance against Tymoshenko, Poroshenko himself doesn’t – she’s beating him 2 to 1 in opinion polls.

    Admin resource isn’t enough to close that big a gap. He’d need massive fraud.

  20. anonymous[238] • Disclaimer says:

    OT

    Mr. Karlin, close the lexical gap.

    There’s a huge lexical gap between America and Russia. I read, for example, Sailer and I couldn’t explain it to a friend who only speaks Russian if my life depended on it.

    This means all of the suffering of Americans from 1965 onwards was for nothing. Better to learn from other people’s mistakes than your own. This is like 1917 – a new ideology (the POZ) but no vocabulary to talk about it and expose it for the fraud it is. It’s a commonplace how mediocre and inefficient White anti-propaganda was.

    How would one translate something like Sailer’s Susan Collins Is a Becky?
    (“Becky” apparently means “generic white woman”. Sailer quotes Tweets by two Hyphen-American females attacking Collins, lady who confirmed Kavanaugh, in a thinliy-veiled racial way.)

    N.N. — Svetka?

    [BTW, I hate this and would like Russian had proper copulas (again.) Which don't have to be the verb "is" but can be an extra demonstrative or personal pronoun, e.g.:

    "N.N. eto Mashka." - sucky.

    "N.N. ona Katjka." - optimal (like in French - "Pierre, il est...")

    Problem, you still need the dash in both cases according to current rules of orthography - to remind you there used to be a verb there 300 years ago - which keeps these words from becoming copulas in their own right.]

    – USSR Andy – posting this as anonymous because I feel this is really important but too many people seem to have me on their CtI lists.

    • Replies: @ussr andy
    , @ussr andy
  21. Mr. Hack says:
    @Anon

    Sadly though, contemporary Russia is not in shape to annex a territory of 20 million people.

    Long gone are the days that Russia could invade and takeover all of Ukraine – this is progress. The only area where this has happened is in the Crimea, where a majority of the inhabitants are ethnic Russians. And day by day, the Ukrainian project is getting stronger and the ‘NovoRussija’ project is getting weaker. Russia, if it were smart, should learn to just get along with its neighbor. It could slowly try and bring it into its camp by coopting it with economic goodies, like it was doing up until 2014. Karlin should put his gift of statistical analysis to work and project what the Russian economy would be like today, had it not got involved in Ukraine in 2014, after the Sochi Olympics. Russia minus its Ukrainian war, minus the sanctions… Certainly, it would have much more influence in what goes on in Ukraine today, than it does!

    • Replies: @Anon
    , @Anatoly Karlin
  22. Mr. Hack says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    An 8 hour work week? I bet that the benefits can’t be all that great…

    • Replies: @Anon
  23. ussr andy says:
    @anonymous

    I don’t know this person but I agree 100%.
    can any of you bottom-feeders acknowlegde my existance by responding?

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
  24. Anon[422] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    He’d need massive fraud.

    That’s exactly what he will resort to.

  25. Anon[422] • Disclaimer says:
    @Mr. Hack

    I bet that the benefits can’t be all that great…

    Extra income is a great benefit when you are already sorted, and don’t have to work.

  26. AP says:
    @anonymous coward

    You saw the edited parts to make the fairytale that you believe.

  27. AP says:
    @Felix Keverich

    Insulting the memory of peaceful pro-Russian activists

    There is video of them throwing Molotov cocktails from the Trade Union building onto the people outside:

    So the idea that they were peaceful is your fairytale. Thanks for confirming yet again that you believe in fairytales.

    Moreover, while it’s likely that the building went up in flames after it was hit by some Ukrainian-thrown Molotov cocktails, it can’t even be excluded that the pro-Russians themselves didn’t accidentally ignite one in their own building, causing the fire.

    So in Donbas fan world, 42 violent hooligans who died after losing a brawl to opposing Ukrainians hooligans equals thousands of Polish intellgentsia executed in Katyn.

    • Replies: @Anon
    , @Mikhail
  28. AP says:
    @Swedish Family

    The website I posted to is not a Ukrainian nationalist website (it actually condemns Ukrainian far-rightists), unless you believe that any Ukrainian who does not consider himself to be a Rusisan is some kind of a nationalist.

    Moreover, it backs up its claims with links to video.

    Richard Sakwa, OTOH, is just owned by the Russian government. Might as well quote RT.

    Very telling that Sakwa ignored the Molotov cockails thrown by pro-Russian activists, shown on video, and the fact that many people were saved from the building by the Ukrainian natonalists, also shown on video. So Sakwa is good only for the gullible.

    • Replies: @Mikhail
    , @Swedish Family
  29. Anon[422] • Disclaimer says:
    @Mr. Hack

    And day by day, the Ukrainian project is getting stronger and the ‘NovoRussija’ project is getting weaker.

    This may be true but the Ukrainian project is weak, and tries to build Ukraine in lands which are not Ukrainian. “Ukrainian” lands are only in Lvov…

    Had Russia cared about taking places like Kharkov and Zaporozhie, the local population would not protest at all. The problem is Russia is too weak economically to take these lands.

    By the way, Ukrainian language use is suffering regardless of efforts.

    https://insomniacresurrected.com/2018/10/07/is-russian-the-dominant-language-in-ukraine/

    Russia, if it were smart, should learn to just get along with its neighbor. It could slowly try and bring it into its camp by coopting it with economic goodies, like it was doing up until 2014. Karlin should put his gift of statistical analysis to work and project what the Russian economy would be like today, had it not got involved in Ukraine in 2014, after the Sochi Olympics. Russia minus its Ukrainian war, minus the sanctions… Certainly, it would have much more influence in what goes on in Ukraine today, than it does!

    Russia had no option of bringing post-Maidan Ukraine into its camp with economic goodies. The Maidan was a rebellion of Ukrainian oligarchs against Yanukovych, which was helped by United States and its army of granteaters and sellout media in Ukraine. In exchange no doubt, the United States demanded a completely anti-Russian policy from the Maidan government. The first thing Maidan apes did when they took power was to abolish Russian language’s regional status.

    Maidan was a completely anti-Russian endeavour that made the choice to join Europe instead of Russia, so no economic goodies for this entity.

    Sanctions against Russia existed before the Ukrainian crisis, and war was inevitable in the wake of Maidan. Russia made a lot of effort to mitigate the conflict, even went as far as to embarrassingly freeze the conflict in Donbass.

    Sanctions however, amount to Europe shooting itself in a foot over Ukraine that has gone utterly bonkers. The sanctions will not bring back Donbass or Crimea, and Ukraine is the biggest loser from them.

    • Replies: @Mikhail
  30. AP says:
    @Anon

    Novorossiya was conquered and built by Russians

    Zaporozhian Cossack lands were indeed conquered by the Russians. So was Poland. So?

    Even 1897 census shows about 7o% Ukrainian population in those lands.

    people there (particularly in the cities) speak Russian.

    And urban Irish speak English. So?

    Regions with a Russian majority were Crimea and parts of Donbas; Ukraine is now free of those regions.

    • Replies: @Anon
  31. Anon[422] • Disclaimer says:
    @AP

    it can’t even be excluded that the pro-Russians themselves didn’t accidentally ignite one in their own building, causing the fire.

    It can’t be excluded, but it also can. You yourself cannot prove your claims.

    So in Donbas fan world, 42 violent hooligans who died after losing a brawl to opposing Ukrainians hooligans equals thousands of Polish intellgentsia executed in Katyn.

    You may not like the comparison but who cares?

  32. Anon[422] • Disclaimer says:
    @AP

    Zaporozhian Cossack lands were indeed conquered by the Russians.

    We are talking about Novorossia. A land owned by nomads that Russian Emperors conquered and established cities there.

    And urban Irish speak English. So?

    There is perhaps a reason why English is the official language in Ireland, and why Ireland is a much more successful country than Ukraine?

    Regions with a Russian majority were Crimea and parts of Donbas; Ukraine is now free of those regions.

    Russian speaking Ukrainians are basically the same people as ethnic Russians of Crimea and Donbass.

    • Replies: @AP
  33. Aslangeo says:
    @Anon

    And I thought that a svidomite was a sexual deviant from Swindon

    • Replies: @Anon
  34. Anon[422] • Disclaimer says:
    @Aslangeo

    LOL

    I used this term at one past project of mine but my readers either did not fully understand it, or were triggered by it.

    They said it is a combo of Ukrainian word “svidomy”, meaning “conscious”, and “sodomite”, which it absolutely isn’t.

    Deviation it is however…

  35. AP says:
    @Anon

    Zaporozhian Cossack lands were indeed conquered by the Russians.

    We are talking about Novorossia. A land owned by nomads that Russian Emperors conquered and established cities there.

    Russian nationalists include Dnipropetrovsk as Novorossiya. This area was owned by the Zaporozhians.

    As for the Black Sea coast, Ukrainians did participate in its conquest, just as they participated in Russian conquests in the far east. But the Black Sea coast was mostly settled by Ukrainians moving south.

    Russian speaking Ukrainians are basically the same people as ethnic Russians of Crimea and Donbass.

    LOL, yeah that describes Kiev’s population. You must think Dubliners are basically the same people as inhabitants of Liverpool.

    • Replies: @Anon
  36. @Anatoly Karlin

    sovok

    Topkek.

    Professional tip: “sovok” means soviets and other assorted leftist scum. I’m not “sovok”, I’m simply Russian. Try to diversify your circle of (((friends))), you’ll be surprised once you meet a real Russian person.

  37. @Anatoly Karlin

    He’d need massive fraud.

    Not a problem, the whole country of “Ukraine” is a massive fraud.

  38. Thank you AK for this update and window into these ongoing, and also heart-tugging, events

    ‘President Igor Strelkov’, that has a nice sound to it

    Agree that the Odessa massacre of 2 May 2014 was the turning point … but remembering it always makes me think, ‘Putin should have gone in right then, and partitioned Donbass from Ukraine’ … At the time, Israeli papers even published a post-partition map in anticipation, even ZOG was ok with it

    If Putin had gone in back then, nothing with the West (sanctions etc.) would have been any worse, if Russia had played the media right (which of course the kremlins don’t do)

    • Replies: @Anon
  39. Anon[422] • Disclaimer says:
    @AP

    Ukrainians did participate in its conquest

    Ukrainians did not exist when this conquest happened.

    LOL, yeah that describes Kiev’s population.

    Plenty of Kievans, who adopted Ukrainian identification, sneered at Crimeans that they all have Ukrainian surnames in the nineties.

    Kievans are just the same as people of Donbass or Crimea, the only difference is their brains are infected with zapadnichestvo, and they have too much hubris.

    I have actually noted that Kievans even speak cleaner Russian than Donbassites.

    • Replies: @Mikhail
  40. Anon[422] • Disclaimer says:
    @Brabantian

    ‘Putin should have gone in right then, and partitioned Donbass from Ukraine’

    I do not understand why Russia did not kick Ukrainian forces from the Donbass but taking Ukraine would be a folly.

    1) Half of Ukrainians were convinced that EU will take them, and prosperity will come. Had Russia taken over Ukraine they would not be happy.

    2) Aggressive Ukrainian nationalists are a factor that can be a nuisance to occupying Russian force for a long time. And they could be supplied with weapons by US.

    3) Ukraine is 40 million people that Russia would need to take care of.

    4) Russian supplies of gas to Europe would depend on Ukraine, where an underground would exist that would blow up the pipelines.

    5) Russia’s only allies were the cowardly, greedy and corrupt regionnaires that Russia would have to put into power. Why would Russia lose resources and men over such slime?

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  41. @Mr. Hack

    Russia, if it were smart, should learn to just get along with its neighbor. It could slowly try and bring it into its camp by coopting it with economic goodies, like it was doing up until 2014.

    Yes, sure, gibsmedats are the way to eternal love and respect – yet another thing that sovoks and svidomy agree on. (The latter for self-interested reasons, to be sure).

    Russia has no obligation to “get on” with an inherently anti-Russian project, which is what the Ukraine is at this stage. Since the kremlins fucked up a once in a lifetime opportunity in 2014, the next best course of action now is to ensure it fails, and fails hard. For instance, I would start systemically strip mining it of human capital, like China is currently doing to Taiwan.

    • Replies: @Anon
    , @AP
    , @Mr. Hack
    , @reiner Tor
  42. Mikhail says: • Website
    @AP

    thousands of Polish intellgentsia executed in Katyn.

    Fro some, intelligentsia appears to equal military personnel – some whom were involved with the Pilsudskiite imperialism at the end of WW I.

    While not excusing what happened at Katyn, it was likely motivated in part by the mistreatment of captured Red Army personnel by Poland in the Polish-Soviet war.

    The murdered Odessa in question were chased into that building. They were the victims and not those who chased them along with threatening comments.

  43. Mikhail says: • Website
    @AP

    In terms of objective knowledge, Sakwa is much better than the svido The Day venue, which you’ve readily and uncritically quoted.

    Sakwa doesn’t just rely on JRL court appointed Russia friendly regulars:

    https://books.google.com/books/about/Frontline_Ukraine.html?id=w1u0BQAAQBAJ&printsec=frontcover&source=kp_read_button#v=onepage&q=averko&f=false

    • Replies: @AP
  44. Mikhail says: • Website
    @Anon

    Good to see that source back in action.

  45. Mikhail says: • Website
    @Anon

    I have actually noted that Kievans even speak cleaner Russian than Donbassites.

    Makes perfect sense, somewhat along the lines of why the English spoken in northeastern US cities is crisper than the variant in Mississippi and some other places.

    Plenty of Kievans, who adopted Ukrainian identification, sneered at Crimeans that they all have Ukrainian surnames in the nineties.

    Polling indicates that most of Crimea’s Ukrainians support Crimea’s reunification with Russia – a point relating to the UOC that’s loosely affiliated with the ROC-MP, not wanting to sever its relationship with the latter, in contrast to the state interfering in religion antics of the Kiev regime – Porky in particular.

    • Replies: @Anon
  46. @AP

    Except that most of the 42 were not from the football crowd but non violent anti government protesters (probably externally funded – all those blue tents of one design). Why did the crowd move from the scene of the shooting to the Trade Union building? Like the Maidan shootings, there are inherent contradictions unless some kind of conspiracy theory is included. There doesn’t seem room for incompetence.. The news at the time didn’t capture everything and the competing narratives have polluted the evidence since.

    • Replies: @AP
  47. Anon[422] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    gibsmedats are the way to eternal love and respect – yet another thing that sovoks and svidomy agree on.

    I forgot, Ukraine is still almost completely dependent on Russia for energy. After Westinghouse went belly up, it is Rosatom that keeps Ukraine’s nuclear plants running. Ukraine buys coal from Russia. It would be lights out if Russia decided to really do something about Ukraine.

    Russia has no obligation to “get on” with an inherently anti-Russian project, which is what the Ukraine is at this stage

    Ukraine has always been an anti-Russian project, but if Russia took Ukraine in 2014, professional Ukrs would make noise inside Russia. It is better to keep them out, and let them be sorted out by sane Ukrainians first.

  48. Anon[422] • Disclaimer says:
    @Mikhail

    Ukrainians support Crimea’s reunification with Russia – a point relating to the UOC that’s loosely affiliated with the ROC-MP, not wanting to sever its relationship with the latter, in contrast to the state interfering in religion antics of the Kiev regime – Porky in particular.

    Indeed,ROC never took over parishes in Crimea or Donbass, and sanctioned clergy that would attempt something like this. The parishes there are still part of UOC under Metropolitan Onufry.

  49. AP says:
    @Philip Owen

    Video shows people inside the building throwing Molotov cocktails out and even shooting out. Some may have been nonviolent but many were violent.

    • Replies: @Anon
    , @Philip Owen
  50. AP says:
    @Mikhail

    We have sen an example of Sakwa’s work here: ignored violence by people in the building, ignored attempts to save people in the building by the people outside the building. He lies by omission.

    Sakwa’s excerpt here was a very nice way of discrediting his work. Kudos to the guy who posted it here.

    • Replies: @Philip Owen
  51. AP says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    For instance, I would start systemically strip mining it of human capital, like China is currently doing to Taiwan.

    A bunch of Ukrainian Boeing engineers working in Moscow requested to transfer to Kiev:

    https://theubj.com/news/view/boeing-quietly-expands-kyiv-design-center

    Presumably they have similar salaries, allowing them to live much better in Kiev.

    Opened here in November 2013, days before the Maidan, Boeing’s Kyiv Design Center took on a real life in the spring of 2014 after dozens of Ukrainian designers in Moscow decided they no longer wanted to work in Russia.

    In addition to benefiting from an influx of highly qualified Ukrainian engineers from Moscow, Boeing Ukraine works to develop new homegrown talent through a partnership with Kyiv Polytechnic Institute and Progresstech Group, a local aerospace technology firm.

    Boeing’s presence in Ukraine helps position the local aerospace industry for further development, said Richard Aboulafia, Vice President of Analysis at the Teal Group, an American aerospace and defense consultancy, based in Fairfax, Virginia.

    • Replies: @Anon
  52. @AP

    The website I posted to is not a Ukrainian nationalist website (it actually condemns Ukrainian far-rightists), unless you believe that any Ukrainian who does not consider himself to be a Rusisan is some kind of a nationalist.

    That may be. I only browsed its headlines. But no matter its ideological orientation, the words of a respected Western scholar carry far greater weight than those on some random website.

    Richard Sakwa, OTOH, is just owned by the Russian government. Might as well quote RT.

    These kinds of accusations are easy to throw around and hard to clear someone of. In the case of Sakwa, I think it says a lot for his reputation in academic circles that the co-editor of his book Ukraine and Russia: People, Politics, Propaganda and Perspectives, Agnieszka Pikulicka-Wilczewska, has been published in Kyiv Post (https://www.kyivpost.com/article/opinion/op-ed/agnieszka-pikulicka-wilczewska-poland-ukraine-history-conflicts-show-limits-nationalist-international.html) and that the book features a piece by Mark Galeotti, who is hardly a friend of Putin’s.

    Very telling that Sakwa ignored the Molotov cockails thrown by pro-Russian activists, shown on video, and the fact that many people were saved from the building by the Ukrainian natonalists, also shown on video. So Sakwa is good only for the gullible.

    I don’t find that very incriminating. The simplest explanation is that the Trade Union building functioned like something of a HQ, full with every means of self-protection they could lay their hands on, and that they therefore flew there once they were attacked. By early May, there had already been plenty of serious clashes around the country, so it would have made sense to prepare yourself for the worst. Morally, I think it also makes a world of difference who is inside the building and who isn’t: the people on the outside can take a few steps back, while the people inside are trapped.

    • Replies: @AP
  53. AP says:
    @Swedish Family

    Richard Sakwa, OTOH, is just owned by the Russian government. Might as well quote RT.

    These kinds of accusations are easy to throw around and hard to clear someone of.

    Easy to prove, from wiki:

    Sakwa was also a participant of Valdai Discussion Club, an Associate Fellow of the Russia and Eurasia Programme at the Royal Institute of International Affairs, a member of the Advisory Boards of the Institute of Law and Public Policy in Moscow and a member of Academy of Learned Societies for the Social Sciences.[1]

    I don’t find that very incriminating.

    The fact that Sakwa ignored it means he lied by omission.

    The simplest explanation is that the Trade Union building functioned like something of a HQ, full with every means of self-protection they could lay their hands on, and that they therefore flew there once they were attacked.

    They could have scattered and gone home but chose a pitched battle from a defended and armed position.

    • Replies: @Swedish Family
  54. I have a question for Russian nationalists.

    If Russia, Ukraine, Belarus and northern Kazakhstan were politically united, how would you emotionally and spiritually unite the people of this new state?

    In the comment section of this blog, it seems as though the Galicians consider the Great Russians to be semi-Mongol Bolshevik stooges, and the Great Russians consider the Galicians to be Nazi stooges.

    How will you get them to think of each other as brothers, instead of thinking of each other as contemptible enemies?

  55. @reiner Tor

    Turnout in the vote was 53.99%, according to the election website.

    That’s a pretty low rate for a national election.

  56. Mr. Hack says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    in 2014, the next best course of action now is to ensure it fails, and fails hard. For instance, I would start systemically strip mining it of human capital, like China is currently doing to Taiwan.

    All that I was trying to state is that before 2014 Russia’s influence and relatively good image was quite high in Ukraine – all of Ukraine, even in Galicia. At the time of Yanukovych’s great about face to the Eurasian Union, approximately 60% of Ukraine’s population was for a European orientation and 40% for a Russian led one. Only single digit number of Ukrainians were for any involvement with NATO. Since 2014, these numbers have ratcheted up against Russia, in a not too supportive manner. ‘Strip mining’ Ukrainian workers wont achieve any sort of bonus opportunities for Russian expansion of its clout in Ukraine. Ukrainians have been working outside of Ukraine for decades including its Soviet period often to later return to Ukraine not as renegade Ukrainians, but the same as when they left. Take your friend AP as an example. A Ukrainian who was born in Ukraine, has lived in Russia (in fact thinks that it’ a great country), is married to a Russian, lives and works today in the US, and still is as fiery a Ukrainian as you’re bound to find. There are millions of APs around the world, and many millions more in Ukraine!

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    , @Anon
  57. @Mr. Hack

    The article AK posted mentioned that “Taiwanese” identity remained strong among workers in China.

    AK isn’t stupid. His objective isn’t to win hearts and minds but to weaken the Ukraine by starving its economy of talent.

    Actually this makes Ukrainian membership in the EU partly attractive from the POV of a Russian nationalist.

    • Replies: @Anon
    , @Mr. Hack
  58. Anon[422] • Disclaimer says:
    @John Gruskos

    it seems as though the Galicians consider the Great Russians to be semi-Mongol Bolshevik stooges,

    Propaganda like this would be banned, its purveyors persecuted and put into prison camps, and one generation after this, Galicians would be good citizens of Rus’ like everyone else.

    • Replies: @AP
  59. Anon[422] • Disclaimer says:
    @Mr. Hack

    approximately 60% of Ukraine’s population was for a European orientation and 40% for a Russian led one.

    Why was there never a referendum on this?

    Since 2014, these numbers have ratcheted up against Russia, in a not too supportive manner.

    Who gives a damn what propaganda addled Ukrainians think? Ukraine is not a candidate for membership in the EU. Still after all these years. EU does not want 40 million poor people for some reason.

    Ukraine will not enter NATO with Donbass and Crimea, Putin made sure of that.

    So what is left? Ukraine that is not integrating into Europe, not integrating into NATO? With official propaganda that tells people that it does?

    Ukrainians have been working outside of Ukraine for decades including its Soviet period often to later return to Ukraine not as renegade Ukrainians, but the same as when they left.

    Sure they did, my own relatives did. But somehow sovok managed to keep the population at 50 million. The current ruina regime is even shy to conduct a census. You and AP are certainly not packing your bags to move to Truskavets, Vorzel or Odessa for retirement.

    I have met a lady from Kiev, who said she saw Maidan from the window, and said this country does not have a future. I personally think Ukraine could do with wild boars and feral hogs instead of people.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  60. Anon[422] • Disclaimer says:
    @Thorfinnsson

    Actually this makes Ukrainian membership in the EU partly attractive

    With EU, and without Russia, without Donbass, Ukraine’s economic prospects look grim. But I have to repeat time and time again that Ukraine’s EU membership is not even happening.

    Ukraine is not a candidate for membership like Serbia or Macedonia for instance. Damn, even Turkey is a candidate, Ukraine is not.

    • Replies: @AP
  61. Anon[422] • Disclaimer says:
    @AP

    Video shows people inside the building throwing Molotov cocktails out and even shooting out.

    So, people defended themselves, big deal…

    • Replies: @Mikhail
  62. Anon[422] • Disclaimer says:
    @AP

    A bunch of Ukrainian Boeing engineers

    Employees of an American company that operates in a duopoly and services global transport. Not a good example.

  63. Mikhail says: • Website
    @Anon

    His absurd takes on that Sakwa are quite revealing.

  64. Mr. Hack says:
    @Anon

    So what is left? Ukraine that is not integrating into Europe, not integrating into NATO? With official propaganda that tells people that it does?

    Well, one thing is for sure, Ukraine has opted out of Russia’s Custom Union and is certainly not looking backwards. It has achieved the European Association agreement status and is increasing its economic relations with the rest of Europe every day. If Ukraine wasn’t a prize to be sought, you and your fellow Russian nationalists wouldn’t be bellyaching and writing about it every single day. Ukraine has a lot to offer Russia, rich lands, well educated people, a strategically placed geography: Brzezinski got it all right about Ukraine. It’s too bad that you fools blew it in 2014. :-(

    • Replies: @Mikhail
    , @Anon
  65. Mr. Hack says:
    @Thorfinnsson

    I don’t think that you know any of these Ukrainian visa workers? The vast majority of them haven’t forgot their families back home and send money and goods back home on a regular basis. Also, they travel back and visit home regularly. A lot of them are taking over Ukrainian immigrant organizations and are looked towards as the future stewards of the many churches, schools, credit unions, cultural centers and political organizations in their newly adopted homelands. Their voices can do much good for the Ukrainian cause in the immigration. How many of these will go back to Ukraine, once they attain retirement age? It’s hard to say exactly. I know that many still feel that they’re in an allien culture after 10 or 15 years of living here. They miss home and many will return there in their twilight years. \

    Its only by winning the heart and minds of the Ukrainian people that you’ll be able to properly integrate them over into a Russian world. They’re loosing the propaganda war, and all that is left is the big stick. This never works for long and is a last bad chance.

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
  66. AP says:
    @Anon

    With EU, and without Russia, without Donbass, Ukraine’s economic prospects look grim.

    3.8% GDP growth in the last quarter, 11th straight quarter with growth. Western Ukraine is already ahead of where it was in 2013, the rest of the country should be there by the end of this year.

    Some Russian nationalists have a fantasy that it is always 2015 in Ukraine :-)

    • Replies: @Anon
  67. Mikhail says: • Website
    @Mr. Hack

    The actual fools being the Kiev regime. No reasonable chance of full EU or NATO membership anytime soon, while losing Crimea and not having control over much of Donbass.

  68. AP says:
    @Anon

    one generation after this, Galicians would be good citizens of Rus’ like everyone else.

    Like two generations under Soviets made a difference?

    • Replies: @Anon
    , @Mikhail
  69. Anon[422] • Disclaimer says:
    @AP

    Soviet Union acknowledged Ukrainian nationalism… the new entity would not.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  70. Anon[422] • Disclaimer says:
    @AP

    Western Ukraine is already ahead of where it was in 2013

    Western Ukraine was always the most backwater region of Ukraine, it is a literal shithole. I am glad though that their relationship with EU is working. But I can’t think of much of what they are doing, logging, amber mining, smuggling?

    • Replies: @anonymous
    , @AP
  71. anonymous[207] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anon

    Being ploughed. The type that involves women.

  72. AP says:
    @Anon

    “Western Ukraine is already ahead of where it was in 2013″

    But I can’t think of much of what they are doing

    Think harder.

    https://theubj.com/news/view/lviv-plans-150-million-it-city-to-cope-with-growth

    https://www.daxx.com/article/lviv-biggest-it-hub-ukraine

    • Replies: @Anon
  73. Anon[422] • Disclaimer says:
    @Mr. Hack

    It has achieved the European Association agreement status and is increasing its economic relations with the rest of Europe every day. If Ukraine wasn’t a prize to be sought, you and your fellow Russian nationalists wouldn’t be bellyaching and writing about it every single day.

    Ukraine may a prize for Russia but it certainly isn’t a prize for the EU in any respect. That’s why the EU does not rush to integrate Ukraine. It has been already 5 years since the coup that forced Association, and I do not hear the EU offering Ukraine any membership plan…

    Ukraine will enter the EU right after New Zealand, and will be with Russia forever.

    Ukraine has opted out of Russia’s Custom Union and is certainly not looking backwards.

    Are you sure it isn’t? There are still people in Ukraine, who realise that under USSR, Ukrainian population was 50 million, Ukraine used to make ships, planes, rockets to go to space. Some Ukrainians even realise that Russia was the country to bring security and peace after Tatar slavery, and Cossack banditism.

    Can you claim the post-independence Ukraine can claim any of these achievements?

    Ukraine has a lot to offer Russia, rich lands, well educated people, a strategically placed geography

    Sure, that’s why Russia was forced to build pipelines around Ukraine. That’s why Russia became Ukraine’s competitor on the grain market, that’s why Ukraine is not considered as space for transit by anyone.

    Ukraine may be a prize but not in the shape it is now.

    Brzezinski got it all right about Ukraine.

    Brzezinski actually said that integration of Ukraine into NATO would force Russia to do West’s bidding. But Ukraine is not entering NATO, and is not even entering EU.

  74. Anon[422] • Disclaimer says:
    @AP

    I am glad Lvov leaders have the brains to use Ukraine’s pitiful wages to build an IT sector. 20,000 people however is not very much, what are the rest doing? Lvov is a run down East European shithole just a few blocks from the city centre, with dilapidated roads and mess…

    • Replies: @AP
    , @Philip Owen
  75. AP says:
    @Anon

    20,000 people however is not very much, what are the rest doing?

    ~ 4,000 new workers entering the market each year. 20,000 direct tech workers means at least an additional 100,000 ancillary jobs.

    http://bunews.com.ua/economy/item/lviv-becomes-ukraines-real-estate-boomtown

    So in 2016 tech industry accounted for 100,00 jobs total.

    Real estate and construction are also booming. For people not smart enough to program, lots of factories are opening.

    https://www.ukrinform.net/rubric-economy/2339788-japans-fujikura-intends-to-open-third-plant-in-lviv-region.html

    Fujikura, a Japanese company, plans to open its third plant in Lviv region.

    Lvov is a run down East European shithole just a few blocks from the city centre with dilapidated roads and mess…

    Clueless guy who didn’t even know about the IT industry and was talking about logging now writes this nonsense.

    Driving around the city, not just center. Roads are normal:

    You lose credibility with each post, Anon 422. Perhaps you should be renamed Anon 404?

    • Replies: @anonymous coward
    , @Anon
  76. Mr. Hack says:
    @Anon

    Yeah, they acknowledged it, sought it out and tried feverishly to exterminate it, all to no avail. There are just too many Ukrainians that have yearned and will continue to yearn for a successful country of their own and will continue to work for one, no matter how long it takes. Will the hometown eventually win out, or the fifth columnists and doomsayers from the north country?

  77. @John Gruskos

    How will you get them to think of each other as brothers, instead of thinking of each other as contemptible enemies?

    Ukraine is a shithole and a failed state. It will cling to Russia naturally, for economic reasons. The real question is how to grow real loyalty in these people. (Shitholers and failed staters are not big on the whole loyalty thing.)

  78. @AP

    You’re totally right, Lvov is a great city. When are you moving back?

    • Replies: @AP
  79. WHAT says:

    Is Kholmogorov really of the far left? His writings translated here don`t point in that direction.

    AK: This refers to the seating in the photograph. Thought that would be obvious.

  80. Aslangeo says:
    @reiner Tor

    And this despite 11% of the Latvian population being excluded from democracy as non citizens because of their ethnicity. apartheid is alive and well.

  81. Aslangeo says:
    @John Gruskos

    I would never include Galicia, Let the Poles have them.

    The eastern Ukrainians, Belarus, Russians, Tatars and Kazakhs will get along reasonably well

    • Replies: @Anon
    , @reiner Tor
  82. Mikhail says: • Website
    @AP

    USSR not equal to pre and post-Soviet Russia.

    - Friendly reception Russian forces received by the ancestors of present day west Ukrainians en route to Hungary in the late 1840s

    - Galician Ukrainian army en masse coming under the command of the Russian Whites during the Russian Civil War.

    Agree that it’s a tall task to reduce the level of anti-Russoism among the Galicia-Volhynia crowd. Can’t be completely ruled out in the distant future. Not likely to happen anytime soon.

    • Replies: @anonymous coward
  83. @Mikhail

    Agree that it’s a tall task to reduce the level of anti-Russoism among the Galicia-Volhynia crowd.

    Much of it is due to the inordinate influence of second- and third-generation immigrants from USA and Canada. Galicia is Borat-style shithole, so American dollars and attention go a long way there. (Even down to hilarious things like second-generation immigrants imposing rules on how Galicians should speak their own language.)

    It also doesn’t help that many of these second- and third-generation immigrants are literal literal Nazis. (The USA accepted fleeing Nazis as “anti-communist refugees” after WWII.)

    Somebody should ask AP about his grandpa, lol.

    • Replies: @Anon
  84. Anon[422] • Disclaimer says:
    @AP

    100,000 ancillary jobs

    That still very few… Lvov alone is more 700,000 people, and as I recall we have been talking about Western Ukraine. I was by the way aware Lvov wants to compete with India for outsourcing, but you haven’t come up with anything else.

    Driving around the city, not just center. Roads are normal

    You have shown some maintained central roads, and say I lose credibility? You have to try harder. Lvov is certainly not getting any more attractive for me. It competes with India on other levels too.

    https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9B%D1%8C%D0%B2%D0%BE%D0%B2%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%B9_%D0%BC%D1%83%D1%81%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%BD%D1%8B%D0%B9_%D0%BA%D1%80%D0%B8%D0%B7%D0%B8%D1%81

    • Replies: @AP
  85. Anon[422] • Disclaimer says:
    @Aslangeo

    I would never include Galicia, Let the Poles have them.

    Russian nationalists shy away from including Halychyna in the new Rus’ because UPA, Bandera, orcs and goblins?

    Halychyna is just as part of Rus’ as the rest. When decades onward they realise no EU is happening for them, they will either develop their own separatism of their own, or join the East.

    Halychyna had a large Russophile movement in early 20th century, and its Russophobia is a result of the local identity politics being monopolised by Nazi supported Bandera, and the Soviet experience.

    Economically powerful Russia would be more attractive.

  86. Anon[422] • Disclaimer says:
    @anonymous coward

    It also doesn’t help that many of these second- and third-generation immigrants are literal literal Nazis. (The USA accepted fleeing Nazis as “anti-communist refugees” after WWII.)

    Because while USA and the Anglos realised the value of identity politics, Sovoks gave every malformed nationality a republic. Guess who won?

  87. @Aslangeo

    I think you know very little of human psychology if you think that the Kazakhs, having tasted independence, can be made loyal subjects of this new empire. For the matter, the same is probably true of the vast majority of Ukrainians.

    The brand of nationalism most non-Russian commenters subscribe to doesn’t want to rule over disloyal subjects. The Russians seem to believe in the infinite malleability of ethnic loyalties, which is foolish. Or they think it’ll work out well to rule fundamentally disloyal subjects. Then they will complain that the empire was bad for ethnic Russians, because they will have to bear the brunt of the costs of the empire. Like they did in the Romanov empire, or in the USSR.

    • Replies: @Anon
  88. AP types really are annoying as hell. The twitter persona “Ariana Gic” is similar – some dumb Ukrainian whore who lives in Canada and supports open-borders SJW liberalism for Canada and far-right nationalism for Ukraine. In fact, whores who don’t want to go back is Ukraine’s main export.

    These people are the worst kind of plastic paddies – they go on about their homeland’s beauty and would never actually move there, they have no skin in the game, and their plastic-paddy nationalism is centered on a Polish-Austrian imperial city (Lemberg, or “Lviv”) which they have no historical links to. They’re both annoying and ridiculous.

    • Replies: @AP
    , @Swedish Family
  89. @Anatoly Karlin

    For instance, I would start systemically strip mining it of human capital

    That’d make it easier for the enemies of Russia to recruit spies. It’s less of a problem for China, because China is totalitarian, and also much bigger than Taiwan. Whereas Ukraine equals the size of a third of Russia.

    • Replies: @Anon
  90. The really funny thing is that Lviv (a historically Polish and Austrian city, now overrun by Ukies the same way Detroit is overrun by blacks) is going to become increasingly Russian-speaking. The longer this war goes on, the more Donbass refugees will move there and change its demographics.

    • Replies: @Anon
    , @Mr. Hack
    , @AP
  91. Anon[422] • Disclaimer says:
    @reiner Tor

    North Kazakhstan has a Russian majority. Nobody is interested in taking away the independence of Kazakhs.

    By the way, Kazakhs are also a nationality, like Ukrainians, that changed ethnonym, from Karakyrgyz.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
  92. @Anon

    The comment I replied to mentioned Kazakhs.

    But Ukrainians would probably be also disloyal, on average, though probably not to the degree that Kazakhs would be.

    • Replies: @Anon
    , @AP
  93. Anon[422] • Disclaimer says:
    @Edmonton-Lviv Patriot

    The longer this war goes on, the more Donbass refugees will move there and change its demographics.

    What is interesting is that following independence, until 2014, a process of polarisation was going on. Lvov became more Ukrainian speaking as the Soviet Army left, and industry failed. And Donetsk became more Russian speaking because Ukrainian was highly unfashionable there, and repression of Russian only deepened this feeling.

    Like you say, paradoxically economic development and influx of people from the East will cause Lvov to speak Russian. Add to that the fact that Dnepropetrovsk and Donetsk are, or rather used to be, a single economic area.

  94. Anon[422] • Disclaimer says:
    @reiner Tor

    But Ukrainians would probably be also disloyal

    The problem with all the post-Soviet republics is that they were used to gibsmedat from Soviet times, and love Russia only for gibs, and would ditch Russia at any point.

    Only Russia and Belarus had a positive balance between production and consumption, the rest was just consuming.

    Russian nationalists can either be driven by Muh Feels of creating a New Rus, which is my driving ideal. Or they can look at things rationally and ask what can these lands offer Russia? Russia already can get workforce from Ukraine. It makes little sense to occupy the vast territory of Ukraine.

    Ukrainians should be asking what they can offer Russia before screaming GIBSMEDAT!

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
  95. Anon[422] • Disclaimer says:
    @reiner Tor

    That’d make it easier for the enemies of Russia to recruit spies.

    Reading news stories, Russia already has this problem, and it is homegrown. Besides, as this blog suggests, Russian spies leave a lot to be desired. Perhaps they should focus on hiring better cadres into secret services.

  96. Gerard2 says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    Poroshenko can use the admin resource to catapult himself past Gritsenko to second place, but while Gritsenko has a chance against Tymoshenko, Poroshenko himself doesn’t – she’s beating him 2 to 1 in opinion polls.

    Admin resource isn’t enough to close that big a gap. He’d need massive fraud.

    A reminder that Ukraine is well on course to have it’s Second President in 10 years to have come to office via an illegal western coup ….then subsequently get chucked out of office in with single digit percentage of the vote.

    This isn’t democracy…but a sham in a sea of stupidity

    • Replies: @Anon
  97. AP says:
    @reiner Tor

    But Ukrainians would probably be also disloyal, on average, though probably not to the degree that Kazakhs would be.

    Kazakhs haven’t been fighting pro-Russian and Russian forces. Why would they be less loyal than Ukrainians?

    • Replies: @Anon
    , @reiner Tor
  98. Anon[422] • Disclaimer says:
    @AP

    Kazakhs haven’t been fighting pro-Russian and Russian forces.

    Ukrainians also haven’t been fighting anyone for the most part, recruitment rate in Ukraine was rather dismal.

    • Replies: @AP
  99. Anon[422] • Disclaimer says:
    @Gerard2

    This isn’t democracy…but a sham in a sea of stupidity

    Do you believe Poroshenko really won honestly in 2014? I for instance do not…

    • Replies: @Gerard2
  100. Mr. Hack says:
    @Edmonton-Lviv Patriot

    Total nonsense! A friend of mine who vacations in Western Ukraine every summer recently returned and was commenting to me about the Donbas refugees in Ivano-Frankivsk. Although some of the older members of this displaced group still speak Russian to their children, he gleefully stated that the children would answer back in Ukrainian. Schools, universities, newsprint, television and radio are all broadcast in the Ukrainian language. Besides, the vast majority of these Donbas refugees are Ukrainian and know the language – most will not be going back anytime soon and within a generation will be totally Ukrainianized. Thank you Putin! :-)

    • Replies: @AP
  101. AP says:
    @Edmonton-Lviv Patriot

    The really funny thing is that Lviv (a historically Polish and Austrian city, now overrun by Ukies the same way Detroit is overrun by blacks)

    Lviv was dong better now than at any time since the 1930s. It was a really dreary place under the Sovoks.

    is going to become increasingly Russian-speaking. The longer this war goes on, the more Donbass refugees will move there and change its demographics.

    Lviv’s ethnic Russians are themselves becoming increasingly Ukrainianized. Something like a third of young ones speak Ukrainian a s a first language, and this number is increasing. And almost all products of mixed marriages between Ukrainians and Russians, including several of my cousins in Lviv, have a Ukrainian identity and speak primarily Ukrainian . Why do you think Donbas refugees would be different? Especially since the ones who move to Lviv are the more nationalistic ones?

  102. AP says:
    @Anon

    At least 2/3 of those mobilized have served. Given the fact that the Ukrainian state can’t really arrest everyone who refuses to serve this is not a terrible number.

    Being subject to Russian bullets has turned central Ukrainians intro Galicians. I have family in central Ukraine and am shocked by the difference – I even offend some of them them when I insult Bandera.

    Putin has been great for Ukrainian state building.

    • Replies: @Anon
    , @Mikhail
  103. AP says:
    @Edmonton-Lviv Patriot

    These people are the worst kind of plastic paddies – they go on about their homeland’s beauty and would never actually move there

    Silly argument coming from a pro-Russian poster.

    Most of the “Russian” nationalists here don’t live in Russia. The Saker, born in Yugoslavia, may never have even visited. Martyanov left in 1991. 422 is not a Russian, and may be living in the West. Our host finally moved to Moscow, and predictably the “Russian” or Sovok patriots living abroad have somewhat turned against him when his posts reflected Russian reality.

    their plastic-paddy nationalism is centered on a Polish-Austrian imperial city (Lemberg, or “Lviv”) which they have no historical links to

    My family owned a building on Lviv’s market square and the one behind it in the late 18th century. We have a large and beautiful family crypt in the famous Lychakiv cemetery. I have more and older familial links to Lviv than you do ro whatever Russian city your peasant ancestors moved to, assuming you are even a Russian.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    , @AP
    , @Mikhail
  104. AP says:
    @Anon

    100,000 ancillary jobs

    That still very few… Lvov alone is more 700,000 people

    Over 100,000 people including kids. So perhaps 1/5 of the workforce.

    I was by the way aware Lvov wants to compete with India for outsourcing

    There is also R & D. Lviv programmers are better than Indian ones.

    Driving around the city, not just center. Roads are normal

    You have shown some maintained central roads, and say I lose credibility?

    Video specifically showed roads outside the center. You claimed there were none within blocks of the center. I was in Lviv in 2017, roads in the city and suburbs were normal. About 25-30 km or so outside the city, towards Ternopil, they became very bad. But the road to the Kiev was normal.

    Garbage crisis wasn’t seen in the city center at all (and by city center I mean not just the market square by a few km around it).

  105. AP says:
    @anonymous coward

    I’m not moving to Moscow, Geneva, etc. either. And Moscow is my favorite city in the world. So?

  106. AP says:
    @Mr. Hack

    Just as ethnic Ukrainians have historically started to speak Russian in a totally Russian-language environment, ethnic Russians become Ukrainian-speaking in a totally Ukrainian-speaking environment such as in western Ukraine. I know one hardcore Ukrainian nationalist who is half-Russian – moreover, their great-grandfather had been a hero of Stalingrad who settled in Lviv after the war.

    Because the two peoples are similar to each other, like Spaniards and Italians, assimilation can go both ways depending on the circumstances.

    • Replies: @Anon
  107. Mr. Hack says:
    @AP

    Excellent reply AP! You definitely put a smile on my face this morning with this zinger! :-)

  108. AP says:
    @AP

    Most of the “Russian” nationalists here don’t live in Russia. The Saker, born in Yugoslavia, may never have even visited. Martyanov left in 1991. 422 is not a Russian, and may be living in the West. Our host finally moved to Moscow, and predictably the “Russian” or Sovok patriots living abroad have somewhat turned against him when his posts reflected Russian reality.

    And we should not forget “Mikhail.” He was born in the USA, and does not even speak Russian at all!

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    , @Gerard2
  109. Anon[422] • Disclaimer says:
    @AP

    Putin has been great for Ukrainian state building.

    Bandera is actually making Ukrainians look bad outside. When Czechs hear about Ukrainians fapping to Bandera, they think WTF?

    People tend to have ignorant villagers as relatives but I would not call the opinion of an average idiot “state building”.

    If Ukrainians can use Putin and fake Russian aggression as means to consolidate their country, good luck to them. But eventually, it would require more than blaming Putin to consolidate the country.

    They need some proper peremoha. Do you think contemporary Ukraine can deliver this ecstasy to them?

  110. Mr. Hack says:
    @AP

    Hey, don’t pick on ‘Mikhail’ (Mickey). He’s a bonafide ‘Independent Political Analyst’ (based in New York). He’s even graduated with a B.A. from somewhere! :-)

    • Replies: @Gerard2
  111. Anon[422] • Disclaimer says:
    @AP

    Because the two peoples are similar to each other, like Spaniards and Italians

    The fact that Ukrainian was deliberately made different from Russian does not mean people accept and use the language.

    https://insomniacresurrected.com/2018/10/07/is-russian-the-dominant-language-in-ukraine/

    From what I hear, in Kiev, every tenth person speaks Ukrainian. Ukrainian language requires quotas, and harassment by government agencies, and 100% Ukrainian language channels tend to fail in Ukraine even as we speak.

    http://alternatio.org/articles/articles/item/63528-yosyp-katsman-i-grad-prirecheniy

    When a language requires quotas, repression of other languages, and financial support from the government, chances are it is not native, or it is near dead.

    • Replies: @AP
  112. Anon[422] • Disclaimer says:

    Russian speaking Ukrainians that adopt the entire package of Ukrainism would be Russian liberals in Russia.

    Zapadnichestvo
    Russia is mordor
    Russians are slaves, and have a slave mentality

    To that they add…

    Ukraine is Europe
    Ukraine is not Russia
    Proshchay nemytaya Rossiya

    And they still speak Russian, and it is silly…

    • Replies: @AP
  113. AP says:
    @Anon

    The fact that Ukrainian was deliberately made different from Russian does not mean people accept and use the language.

    https://insomniacresurrected.com/2018/10/07/is-russian-the-dominant-language-in-ukraine/

    If you believe the Gallup poll (in which 17% of respondents chose to do a survey in Ukrainian, 83% in Russian) reflects reality you further discredit yourself.

    Try logic. Western Ukraine has about 20% of Ukraine’s population. This region is 90% or more Ukrainian speaking. If Gallup results reflect reality, than 0% of people outside western Ukraine speak Ukrainian. But one only needs to drive out of Kiev to encounter Ukrainian-speaking villages.

    So by believing the Gallup results, you’ve demonstrated that you know little about Ukraine and are very gullible.

    (I suspect Gallup, which had a small sample size, only polled urban respondents).

    A more comprehensive survey, with 10,000s respondents, using same methodology as Gallup:

    http://www.kiis.com.ua/materials/articles_HVE/16_linguaethnical.pdf

    40.5% Ukrainian, 43% Russian.

    This was when Ukraine included Crimea and Donbas, obviously it is now further favoring Ukrainian.

    From what I hear, in Kiev, every tenth person speaks Ukrainian.

    As the primary language, correct. However 90% (at least) speak Ukrainian fine.

    Ukrainian language requires quotas, and harassment by government agencies, and 100% Ukrainian language channels tend to fail in Ukraine even as we speak.

    These policies are supported by most Russian-speaking Ukrainians.

    When a language requires quotas, repression of other languages, and financial support from the government, chances are it is not native, or it is near dead.

    Quebec has such policies and the French language is alive and well there. Try again.

    • Replies: @Anon
  114. Gerard2 says:
    @AP

    And we should not forget “Mikhail.” He was born in the USA, and does not even speak Russian at all!

    haha!- Mikhail is as Russian as they come you dumb POS. He also gets his news about Russia from russian language outlets and people he knows in Russia…….but spambot nutjob freak as you he gets it from millions of hours on Wikipedia to occupy your non-life…..and a million years and some Canadian Baderatard blog that you just copy and paste (shit )from

    You can’t speak the fake language of Ukrainian….or Russian, so beyond a joke a nutjob perma-troll loser as you would project our own failings onto Mikhail

    • Replies: @AP
  115. @Mr. Hack

    I suspect there is some economic research on this topic. I don’t mean specifically on the Ukraine, but generally.

    The negative effect of the brain drain vs. the positive effect of remittances.

    The loss of so many Russian, Ukrainian, and Belorussian scientists and engineers to the West in the past quarter-century surely was not positive for their homelands.

    Loss of human capital is a very serious problem in India. It’s easier to hire a good Indian engineer in the Anglosphere than it is to do so in India. The Indian government foolishly lobbies for higher immigration quotas in the West, starving their own country of talent.

    Returning back to the Ukraine (or wherever) in retirement provides a lift to domestic demand, but retired high-skill workers aren’t using their talents to build the national economy.

    Taiwan and the Ukraine have both done quite badly in this century, though emigration wouldn’t seem to be the top cause in either case.

    Now unskilled workers emigrating can be quite positive. Lowers unemployment, lifts wages, doesn’t starve your economy of talent, and you still get the remittances. Mexico for instance has done quite well off of exporting peasants to America.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    , @Anon
    , @LatW
  116. AP says:
    @Anon

    Do you also think Irish nationalists, most of whom speak only English, are silly?

    • Replies: @Anon
    , @Gerard2
  117. Anon[422] • Disclaimer says:

    Ukraine did not conduct a population census for 16 years. Poroshenko continues to claim there are 45 million people. But some researches say there are only 35 million.

    I pretty much bet that the best human capital has left Ukraine forever.

    Now compare this with bad Sovok. Ukraine’s population 50 million. Now explain to anyone with a brain that Ukraine is doing well.

    Only complete idiots can claim that life in Ukraine that conducts an anti-Russian policy is something to write home about.

  118. Anon[422] • Disclaimer says:
    @AP

    Irish nationalists have never decided to legislate against the English language, and replace it with provincial Gaelic.

  119. Gerard2 says:
    @Anon

    Do you believe Poroshenko really won honestly in 2014? I for instance do not…

    I know 100% that Yanukovich won in 2004

    • Replies: @AP
  120. AP says:
    @Gerard2

    I speak Ukrainian well enough to pass for a native in Ukraine, and Russian well enough to pass for a Czech or Baltic tourist, who has learned decent Russian but is clearly not a native. I admit that writing in Cyrillic is rather cumbersome, though I can do it. Reading is not a problem.

    Mikhail really does not speak any Russian. Which is strange, because Russian Whites, who are superior to Russian Sovoks like you, have generally preserved their language across the generations.

    • Replies: @Mikhail
  121. Mr. Hack says:
    @Thorfinnsson

    I tend to agree with you. It’s a complicated and tough situation A friend of mine here emigrated from Ukraine some 15 year ago. She’s now a tenured biology professor pulling down more than 100k a year. Back in Ukraine, I believe, she’d be lucky making $12,000 per year. She visits Ukraine every year, her parents visit her here almost every year, and she’s quite the advocate for Ukrainian causes. As they say:

    No money, no funny!

  122. Gerard2 says:
    @AP

    err….because Ireland has a culture, a history,is fully secure in it and has a completely different mentality to the English you dumb prick.

    [MORE]

    This is completely different in “Ukraine” you retard ,where the idea of “Ukraine” is so weak that in a fair fight of a “Ukrainian” thing versus a Russian thing ( television,media, holidays, history, industry, jobs, monuments, stories, education textbooks, language, internet, swearing.,…everything) Russian dominated throughout these “contests” you thick sack of sh*t

    Ireland, minus the north, is also, clearly by it’s geography, an actual country, Ukraine is an artificial state with 25% of it’s area given by recent Russian handouts……..and the other 75% equally as artificial

  123. Anon[422] • Disclaimer says:
    @AP

    I suspect Gallup, which had a small sample size, only polled urban respondents

    You yourself seems to have admitted that Ukrainian is the language of a village. I live in a village now, and the level of human capital here is markedly lower than it was in big city. So the culture of village is encroaching upon the culture of cities… LOL

    I have Ukrainian people that would confirm the language situation presented by Gallup. But I have also presented Google Trends, what can you say about those? Why do they correlate with the findings of Gallup?

    However 90% (at least) speak Ukrainian fine.

    But it is clearly not their native language.

    These policies are supported by most Russian-speaking Ukrainians

    .

    Indeed, first it was legislated that all universities and legislature be written in Ukrainian, and then people were forced to conform. I am guessing there is at 20% that do not agree with this and would like to use their native language. In the EU, even minorities of 1.5% have their linguistic rights respected. But Ukraine is not even a candidate for membership, so what am I saying?

    Quebec has such policies and the French language is alive and well there.

    Can we say the same about Russian. I see plenty of grammatical mistakes when I read Ukr comments. Ukrainian Russian speakers are becoming semiliterate in their native tongue. But since Ukraine decided to return to its agrarian roots, this may not be that much of a problem.

    • Replies: @AP
    , @LatW
  124. Gerard2 says:
    @Mr. Hack

    H

    ey, don’t pick on ‘Mikhail’ (Mickey). He’s a bonafide ‘Independent Political Analyst’ (based in New York). He’s even graduated with a B.A. from somewhere!

    LOL…who is the bachaboy to who is this freakshow of retards?

    Just a reminded you thick Canadian/American Badnertard fuckwit of the imaginary Ukrainian language:

    http://www.azot.com.ua/uk/

    and in Russian:

    http://www.azot.com.ua/ru/

    There are about a trillion other webpages, documents and so on to post here reinforcing that “Ukrainian” isn’t a language but a dialect, minus reference to time and influences of french aristocracy….that the large majority of Ukrainians don’t bother to speak

    • Replies: @AP
    , @Mr. Hack
  125. Anon[422] • Disclaimer says:
    @Thorfinnsson

    Returning back to the Ukraine (or wherever) in retirement provides a lift to domestic demand, but retired high-skill workers aren’t using their talents to build the national economy.

    I know people, who have achieved economic independence in the West, either they work online for few thousand bucks, or own property somewhere, or get some pension, and live in Ukraine because it is dirt cheap.

    I am not sure many actually return to Ukraine if they are successful abroad. Ain’t nobody got time for that.

  126. AP says:
    @Anon

    You yourself seems to have admitted that Ukrainian is the language of a village.

    In the West it is an urban language but outside the West it is used in villages and raion centers. The Ukrainian-speaking city of Lviv is larger than national capitals such as Bratislava or Vilnius.

    So the culture of village is encroaching upon the culture of cities… LOL

    This is what happened to Prague in the 19th century, and Vilnius or Bratislava in the 20th, so?

    I have Ukrainian people that would confirm the language situation presented by Gallup

    You are clearly gullible if you believe 0%of people outside western Ukraine speak Ukrainian in Ukraine. You’ve already admitted that about 10% of Kiev itself does.

    But keep advertising your ignorance about basic things.

    It is funny that you are really defending his absurd idea that 83% of Ukrainians, or 0% of Ukrainians outside western Ukraine, favor the Russian language.

    But I have also presented Google Trends, what can you say about those?

    There is simply more Russian content on line, so it makes sense even for a Ukrainian speaker to do searches in Russian if he also knows Russian. How many google searches in Russia are in English? Does that tell you something about the number of English native speakers in Russia?

    Also – urban people probably use google more than do villagers.

    However 90% (at least) speak Ukrainian fine.

    But it is clearly not their native language.

    It is not their preferred language for daily use. Most of these Russian-speakers declare Ukrainian to be their native language, and accordingly support Ukrainianization policies, even if they speak Russian amongst themselves.

    • Replies: @Anon
  127. AP says:
    @Gerard2

    I’m still amused about how you proved that Ukrainian, Russian and Polish are the same language:

    https://www.unz.com/akarlin/netanyahu-was-in-moscow-so-what/#comment-2334356

    Yushchenko’s speech:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-europe-43611547/viktor-yushchenko-ukraine-s-ex-president-on-being-poisoned

    First sentence:

    Ukrainian (Yushchenko) – “Koly ya pishov do domu, potsiluvavsya z druzhynoyu*..”

    Russian would be”Kogda ya paishol domoy, potseloval zhenu”

    Polish would be “Kiedy poszedłem do domu, pocałowałem żonę”

    Every single word in this phrase is the same in Polish as in Russian. It is merely pronounced differently.

    By your “logic”, Polish must be a dialect of Russian too!

    This video is the one you have spammed on the comment section to “prove” that Ukrainian is a dialect of Russian.

    • Replies: @Gerard2
  128. Epigon says:

    Would hypothetical United States of Rus’(sia) work?

    I don’t really see any evil in Ukrainians as a whole, not when millions of Velikorossi took part in wholesale annihilation of Russian history, tradition, religion and culture during Bolshevik period.
    Stolypin is buried in Kiev/Kyiv…
    Are there greater ideological and cultural differences between South, Texas, Midwest, New England and West Coast, than among successor states and peoples of Rus’ lands? How pronounced are differences between Far East, Siberian, Rostov, Piter and Moscow Russians?

    Some individuals should stop insulting and provoking Ukrainian members and Ukrainian state as a whole. Simply because it is uncivilized, often done on basis of incorrect data, and additionally, because it clogs up the comment section and lowers the content quality.

    • Replies: @Anon
  129. AP says:
    @Gerard2

    You “know” all kinds of things, such as that Polish and Russian are the same language :-)

  130. Anon[422] • Disclaimer says:
    @AP

    This is what happened to Prague in the 19th century

    This is the 21st century, welcome!

    There is simply more Russian content on line

    Why is there more Russian content? Is it because people don’t like reading Ukrainian? I for instance do not like reading Slovak, I find it weird, even though I can read it.

  131. Gerard2 says:
    @AP

    [MORE]

    Ukrainian (Yushchenko) – “Koly ya pishov do domu, potsiluvavsya z druzhynoyu*..”

    Russian would be”Kogda ya paishol domoy, potseloval zhenu”

    Polish would be “Kiedy poszedłem do domu, pocałowałem żonę”

    errrmm…..then for the other 199 sentences in his talk ,you thick sack if faeces ,that directly prove my point.

    We even have the ludicrous situation where the President of Ukraine ,Poroshenko( himself speaks perfect Russian), when he speaks “Ukrainian” does so in the style that he is undeniably thinking Russian as he’s speaking “Ukrainian”

    It’s already been proven that the influence of Polish on the Ukrainian “language” is miniscule…same thing with culture. Up till recently remittances from Belarus to Ukraine were about 20 times higher than those from Poland. Amusing to note that with all this BS about the Association Agreement….for along time there has been policy of relatively easily allowing Ukrainians to move in and work in Poland…….. 10 years of being in the EU and Ukrainians being dirt poor, Poland on it’s border, plenty of job opportunites with so many Poles in Germany and the UK, …… but a pitiful amount of Ukrainians moved there to work…preferring Czech, Slovakia, Greece, Germany of course, Israel, Uzbekistan,Kazakhstan, Georgia, Armenia and of course….Russia…millions of them moving there. Only in the last few years, forced by the massive instability from knowing Russia was in recession and under sanctions, the Ukrop apparatus doing everything to make trade, banking and travel from Ukraine with Russia near impossible and a major logistical problem..have Ukrainians started to go to Poland to work( and even then still massively behind Russia)

  132. @AP

    Easy to prove, from wiki:

    Sakwa was also a participant of Valdai Discussion Club, an Associate Fellow of the Russia and Eurasia Programme at the Royal Institute of International Affairs, a member of the Advisory Boards of the Institute of Law and Public Policy in Moscow and a member of Academy of Learned Societies for the Social Sciences.[1]

    Those ties are not “proof” of anything, as you well know. And it does your credibility no favors that they include not only a British academic organization with no obvious connection to Eastern Europe, but also Chatham House (!), which is a hotbed of neoconservatism.

    What we do know with certainty is that Sakwa’s latest book was co-edited by someone who has written for Kyiv Post, Agnieszka Pikulicka-Wilczewska, and featured a piece by a very well-known Kremlin critic, Mark Galeotti. This is a big deal. In Academia, your reputation is your stock-in-trade, so for Sakwa’s peers to get involved with him is tacit recognition of his legitimacy and status.

    The fact that Sakwa ignored it means he lied by omission.

    Or he didn’t find it noteworthy that they should return fire with fire. Throwing molotov cocktails at those who set your headquarters on fire and try to kill you (“Knife the Moskals,” remember?) is not in any way morally equivalent to being the attacker. Nor is it in any way a “pitched battle,” as you preposterously put it.

    Most telling of all, neither you nor Mr. Hack has put forth a plausable explanation for why the pro-federalists chose the very day when they were massively outnumbered (300 against 2,000) to get back at the Maidanites. A more likely explanation, as I have alredy gone into before, is that this was all planned by the Maidanites. The script is basically a repeat of the false-flag Maidan shootings: kill some random people in your own ranks, blame your opponent, and go in for the kill.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    , @Mikhail
    , @AP
  133. @AP

    Because they haven’t been attacked. The Ukrainians under the USSR didn’t mind being ruled by some ethnic Russian, but the Kazakhs rioted when Gorbachev sent some ethnic Kalmyk (I think) over there. So I’d expect Kazakhs to like ethnic Russian rule less than Ukrainians.

    There’s also the angle that many Ukrainians already speak Russian, so for them to assimilate would really just mean a change in identity. For Kazakhs, who visibly look non-Russian, speak a different language, have a different religion etc., such a switch would be way more difficult.

    According to polls, some small percentage of Ukrainians wouldn’t even mind if Ukraine was swallowed by Russia. I don’t think there are ethnic Kazakhs who think the same regarding Kazakhstan. I also don’t think they could be bribed by higher living standards or anything. (It’d also be more difficult, because Kazakhstan is already as rich as Russia.)

    So, on average, Kazakhs would be more difficult than Ukrainians. Not that Ukrainians would be all that easy.

    • Replies: @AP
  134. Mr. Hack says:
    @Gerard2

    You sure sound like a totally frustrated individual, Gerard 2. Your usage of profanities is reminiscent of an adolescent who somehow thinks that he’s impressing the crowd, when in fact it’s just the opposite. Isn’t it time to grow-up? Notice how ‘Swedish Family’ is calmly challenging your arch enemy AP? No profanities, not expletives, just good old fashioned reasoned arguments.

    • Replies: @Mikhail
  135. @Anon

    Only Russia and Belarus had a positive balance between production and consumption, the rest was just consuming.

    It was an irrational economic system. Consumption in this context doesn’t necessarily mean consumption of consumer goods, and even less personal consumption by the ethnic inhabitants of those republics. And even if it does, it includes consumption by ethnic Russian settlers in those republics. There’s also the question of the empire itself: the Soviet military cost something, and probably the ethnic republics didn’t share the burden of maintaining it, it all fell on Russia (and perhaps Belarus). But why should other republics contribute to the military? The empire surely didn’t belong to them. Why should they be grateful for the apartments built for Russians moving into those republics, or consumption provided to those Russians?

  136. Mr. Hack says:
    @Swedish Family

    I haven’t reviewed this unfortunate incident since when it first transpired. I do remember reading one investigative report that indicated that it was the case of two gangs of rowdy individuals getting way out of hand. Unfortunately, for one side they were caught inside of a building, when molotov cocktails were thrown in (and being thrown out too). I will point out that it’s somewhat telling that on the federalist side there were only 300 individuals, whereas on the pro-Maidanite side there were 2,000. That says a lot about the popularity of the views on both sides, in Odessa, a supposedly pro-Russian area.

  137. Anon[422] • Disclaimer says:
    @Epigon

    uncivilized, often done on basis of incorrect data

    Ukraine is regressing, economically, demographically and culturally.

    For fairness sakes, I can say similar processes go on in RF too.

    Unfortunately, until Russia gains strength, and until Ukraine grows a pair, any unification is impossible.

  138. @Edmonton-Lviv Patriot

    These people are the worst kind of plastic paddies – they go on about their homeland’s beauty and would never actually move there, they have no skin in the game, and their plastic-paddy nationalism is centered on a Polish-Austrian imperial city (Lemberg, or “Lviv”) which they have no historical links to. They’re both annoying and ridiculous.

    My thoughts exactly. I remember especially a heated discussion on here when an actual Ukrainian popped in for a while (you could tell from his humble manner and pragmatic view of the place) and was blasted by our resident American* “Ukrainians” for betraying his country. In fairness, I don’t know if the Russian diaspora is much better. I would like to say that the Swedish is, but then there is Thorfinsson (who is potentially Swedish but won’t be fully Swedish to my mind until he has actually lived here).

    * This delusion that one’s ties with the old country can somehow survive many generations of exile seems to me a very American thing, which is somehow both odd (the melting-pot thing should work against it) and predictable (no one much enjoys rootlessness).

  139. Mikhail says: • Website
    @AP

    More disinformation from AP:

    Being subject to Russian bullets has turned central Ukrainians intro Galicians. I have family in central Ukraine and am shocked by the difference – I even offend some of them them when I insult Bandera.

    More like since the end of WW II, places like Kiev and Poltava have seen an influx of people coming from Galicia and Volhynia – something noted by Subtelny and an ethnic Ukriian Kharkov born acquaintance of mine.

    Add to that the violent bullying tactics of pro-Bandera types, who serve to mute Ukrainians thinking differently from them.

  140. Mikhail says: • Website
    @AP

    Most of the “Russian” nationalists here don’t live in Russia. The Saker, born in Yugoslavia, may never have even visited. Martyanov left in 1991. 422 is not a Russian, and may be living in the West. Our host finally moved to Moscow, and predictably the “Russian” or Sovok patriots living abroad have somewhat turned against him when his posts reflected Russian reality.

    The aforementioned people aside, there’re numerous constructively critical pro-Russian advocates out there, whether ethnic Russian, partly ethnic Russian, or otherwise. Of that latter grouping, there’s a range of diversity.

  141. AP says:
    @reiner Tor

    Because they haven’t been attacked.

    Because their state follows very pro-Russian polcies.

    The Ukrainians under the USSR didn’t mind being ruled by some ethnic Russian, but the Kazakhs rioted when Gorbachev sent some ethnic Kalmyk (I think) over there.

    Ukraine was violently incorporated into the USSR.

    For Kazakhs, who visibly look non-Russian, speak a different language, have a different religion etc., such a switch would be way more difficult.

    I may be wrong, but it seems that most Kazakhs (unlike Uzbeks) speak Russian as a first language.

  142. Mikhail says: • Website
    @AP

    Russian Whites whose parents are of that same background are more prone to that – as is true with children of other parents from the same country (Russia aside) who have children in another nation.

    Linguistics doesn’t directly pertain to such studies as foreign policy, history, media and sports. Believe what you want, well educated fluent Russian speakers regularly query me on such aspects as they pertain to Russia.

    Once again noting that my Russian is probably (from what I’ve heard) not any worse than that of David Johnson, Alexander Mercouris, John Mearsheimer and perhaps Henry Kissinger.

  143. Mikhail says: • Website
    @Swedish Family

    Sakwa comes across as being more objective than the likes of Umland, Motyl and Kuzio.

    As you might know, Valdai includes a number of people, who if anything lean in more of a Russia unfriendly direction.

  144. Mikhail says: • Website
    @Mr. Hack

    For that matter, much different from your idiotically rehashed talking points.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  145. @Swedish Family

    The people who went to America were pretty representative of their societies except they that they were also an S.D. or so above average in terms of non-conformism.

    More “svidomy”, even, if you will.

    So we can assimilate back in just fine, but we’ll continue to stand out on account of being much more colorful and outrageous than average. Thorfinnsson would of course be the ur-example of that.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  146. Mr. Hack says:
    @Mikhail

    And since your comments are regularly so loathsome and incoherent, that must put you at the very bottom of the totem pole. :-(

    • Replies: @Mikhail
  147. @AP

    The easiest country by far to reincorporate would be Belorussia, which is culturally closer to Russia than Ukrainians.

    There were protests against Belorussification during the 1920s (I provided a link a few weeks back) – something that obviously didn’t happen in the Ukraine 0 and they voted for the Bolsheviks in 1917 whereas the Ukrainians and Kazakhs voted for national parties (after having voted for Russian nationalist reactionaries in the 1912 elections!).

    Incorporating demographically vigorous and Muslim Kazakhs would be a very bad idea imo. I think the best scenario would be for Nazarbayev to kick the bucket and for the Kazakh nationalists he’s fostered to come to power sooner rather than later, so that Russia can snap off South Siberia and call it quits on its Central Asian history.

    • Agree: reiner Tor
    • Replies: @AP
    , @reiner Tor
  148. AP says:
    @Swedish Family

    And it does your credibility no favors that they include not only a British academic organization with no obvious connection to Eastern Europe, but also Chatham House (!), which is a hotbed of neoconservatism.

    I’m more focused on “a member of the Advisory Boards of the Institute of Law and Public Policy in Moscow.”

    He also did work in the USSR when it was the USSR:

    Worked at Mir Science and Technology Publishing House, Moscow, Russia.

    AWARDS, HONORS: British Council scholarship, Moscow State University, 1979–80.

    He looks like another “expert” on Ukraine who only has experience with Russia. They are a dime a dozen.

    co-edited by someone who has written for Kyiv Post, Agnieszka Pikulicka-Wilczewska

    Even some of Yanukovich’s people have had op-eds posted there. So?

    and featured a piece by a very well-known Kremlin critic, Mark Galeotti.

    There are also pieces by Ukrainian nationalist Taras Kuzio and anti-Ukrainian nationalist Ivan Katchanovsky.

    “The fact that Sakwa ignored it means he lied by omission.”

    Or he didn’t find it noteworthy that they should return fire with fire.

    That may be your excuse for lying my omission, but when you describe an event with one side throwing Molotov cocktails and conveniently leave out the fact that the other side also threw them, you produce a false story about nonviolent people being attacked and killed, rather than the real story of two violent groups clashing and one group losing.

    Neither you nor Mr. Hack has put forth a plausable explanation for why the pro-federalists chose the very day when they were massively outnumbered (300 against 2,000) to get back at the Maidanites.

    Assuming your numbers are accurate (do they come form Sakwa, who as we have seen lies by omission and therefore may lie by commission as well) it could represent underestimating the strength of the pro-Ukrainian group or the assumption that the Yanukovich-era police would take their side.

    Prior to Odessa, there were similar clashes between pro-Russian mobs and pro-Ukrainian mobs in Donetsk. In Donetsk, the pro-Ukrainians lost and were driven out, and the city got into the hands of the anti-Ukrainians. The Russian activists were bragging that this would be repeated in Odessa. And it started out that way. The pro-Rusian mobs attacked the Ukrainian mob first. The first person killed in Odessa was a pro-Ukrainian.

    Didn’t work out that way in the end, though, did it?

    So rather than accept the banal reality that the Russian idea isn’t nearly as popular in Odessa as it is in Donetsk, and that the pro-Russians in Odessa badly miscalculated by making a stand at their building rather than dispersing to their homes, you invent a conspiracy theory in which for some reason Yanukovich-era cops decided to mount a false flag in order to kill 42 people in Odessa and usher in nationalist rule over that city.

    But since we are discussing conspiracy theories. Maybe it was a false flag operation after all. Maybe the Yanukovich-era cops in Odessa masterminded the whole “massacre” because it was a great news story to fire up pro-Russian dupes in Donbas, to serve as a Russian Alamo. The pro-Russians sacrificed a few of their own activists in order to solidify Russian loyalty in Crimea and to inspire Russian military activity in Donetsk. Who benefited from the events in Odessa?

    Oh I forgot – bizarre conspiracy theories are only true when they are masterminded by Russia’s enemies.

    • Replies: @Swedish Family
  149. AP says:
    @Swedish Family

    I remember especially a heated discussion on here when an actual Ukrainian popped in for a while (you could tell from his humble manner and pragmatic view of the place) and was blasted by our resident American* “Ukrainians” for betraying his country.

    Didn’t happen.

    The only guy from Ukraine who posted here was from Lviv and he was bragging how his $1000 income in Lviv was worth $5000 in Moscow (or something like that). He only made a handful of posts making fun of Russians before he left. I think his name was Paul (not Pavlo, a pro-Russian naturally born in New Zealand).

    There’a another guy, Anon from TN, who left Donbas in the 1980s, lived in Moscow and the USA since early 90s.

    You are critical of the opinions of diaspora Ukrainians, who have family ties to Ukraine and who visit Ukraine, but apparently don’t have a problem with the outlandish claims of Russians who in some cases have never been to Ukraine.

    • Replies: @Swedish Family
  150. AP says:
    @Swedish Family

    Found it – the poster who was a Ukrainian from Ukraine:

    https://www.unz.com/comments/all/?commenterfilter=Pavel

    Typical example, I’ve head similar from cousins in Ukraine:

    https://www.unz.com/tsaker/the-crooks-the-clowns-and-the-nazis-a-dynamic-analysis/#comment-2060096

    Reality is closer to what I write, than what these Ukraine “experts” from Russia write.

    I was wrong about his job though, must have remembered someone else. This guy wrote: “isit Ukraine, disarmed if you want to get back to Russia, especially the western part, and find out for yourself that on $100 USD one can live better than on $1,000 USD in Moscow. Much better. Easy.”

    • Replies: @Swedish Family
  151. @AP

    Your comment contained no arguments that Kazakhs would be any more willing to be incorporated into Russia than Ukrainians.

    It’s not like Kazakhstan voted to join the USSR in a plebiscite or something. They also don’t vote on how pro-Russian their policies should be: they are dictatorship, and the dictator calls the shots. He considers a somewhat Russian-friendly policy the safest, with the US far away, and of the two neighbors, the ever strengthening China is perceived to be the more dangerous.

    But I think it’s obvious that some (perhaps 5 or even 10%?) Russian-speaking Ukrainians would be open to the idea of the New Russian Empire, whereas I don’t think the idea has any appeal to any Kazakhs at all. Why would it? They have a different language, different religion, different culture, different traditions, they even look different. I don’t think any Kazakhs ever thought that they were basically just a variety of Russians, and it’d be pretty odd if there ever was.

    • Replies: @AP
  152. @Anatoly Karlin

    I actually think that incorporating Belarus right now would be a bad idea. It’d sound like imperialism, and it’d make all of Russia’s few remaining friends wary.

    On the other hand, after Northern Kazakhstan was annexed (after the death of Nazarbayev, as you wrote), the downsides of annexing Belarus would decrease. I don’t know, however, if Belarusians would be cool with it. I would be okay with it if Belarusians wouldn’t care, but I wouldn’t like it if they didn’t. It’d be imperialism, which would be bad for Russia and everyone else.

  153. Anonymous[189] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anon

    The best way to do it was to intervene on behalf of Yanukovich, take everything up to Kiev together with Kiev (this would be a problem) and leave everything to the west. Then have to all efects two Ukraines, eastern+Kiev with Yanukovich in charge and western with the coup people. Eastern Ukraine will stay friendly forever, western won’t.

  154. Mikhail says: • Website
    @Mr. Hack

    You keep confusing your manner with mine. A sample:

    https://www.eurasiareview.com/07092018-consistency-and-reality-lacking-on-crimea-analysis/

    My views being loathsome to the svidos aren’t a negative.

  155. AP says:
    @reiner Tor

    Your comment contained no arguments that Kazakhs would be any more willing to be incorporated into Russia than Ukrainians.

    The best way to predict future behavior is to look at past behavior. Kazakhs voluntarily allied with the Russians, there was some minor resistance in the 19th century, not much in the 20th. They are also happy within the Eurasian Customs Union. Ukrainians were quiet in the 19th century but prior to that you had Mazepa, Vyhovsky – and then the various warlords fighting against the Russians in the early 20th.

    I’m not saying Kazakhs would be happy with a Russian invasion, but they would probably resist less than would Ukrainians.

    But I think it’s obvious that some (perhaps 5 or even 10%?) Russian-speaking Ukrainians would be open to the idea of the New Russian Empire, whereas I don’t think the idea has any appeal to any Kazakhs at all.

    OTOH, Kazakhstan is like 40% Russian and Ukraine is perhaps 15% Russian.

  156. @AP

    They could have been throwing Molotov cocktails back out after they were thrown at them. Having Molotov cocktails to hand implies preparation or access to vehicles nearby. If they were making MC’s then both sides were up for it. seems the wrong place for that.

    • Replies: @AP
  157. @AP

    On the other hand, you are absolutely right that the Russian media ignored the rescue attempts and the fraction of the police that tried to restrain the mob. But equally, there was a fraction of the police that stood idly by.

    As we have discussed before it was Praviy Sector (!) that insisted on supervising police patrols from the massacre until Sakashvili took over.

  158. @Anon

    sounds like St Petersburg. In the Russian provinces you don’t even have to leave the city centre.

  159. LatW says:
    @Anon

    You yourself seems to have admitted that Ukrainian is the language of a village.

    This isn’t entirely true. Ukrainian is very widely used in the media – it is quite typical, for instance, for many prime time shows to have Russophone moderators but Ukrainian speaking guests. Or vice versa. They answer each other in their respective languages. Ukrainian is predominantly used in the government, at Rada. Also, listen to some of the things these Russophones say – it makes my jaw drop at times at how anti-Russian they are. And there are opposite cases – there are people who speak in surzhyk who are totally pro-Russian, there are plenty of moderates, too. It really isn’t about language, but about loyalty.

    You also stated that Russophone patriots of Ukraine would be “liberals if they lived in Russia”. Yes, some of them are quite pro-Western (for instance, it was very unusual and surprising to see Russophone Atlanticists, very peculiar), although probably not in the pro-multiculturalist, openly pro-gay rights liberals (as those are marginal issues right now). Please also remember that a large part of the nationalist volunteer battalions were Russophone – possibly even up to 70%. They are very freedom loving and borderline anarchic (although they do simultaneously have some amazing organizational skills – baffling!), but they are the opposite of liberals and are EU/NATO-realists (if not skeptics). Many of them are from the East, some are probably Russified ethnic Ukrainians that are only one generation away from ridna mova. The founder of Azov is of Cossack heritage and his parents who went to school in Harkov are pure Russophones but he grew up with his grandmothers who spoke Ukrainian to him during summers, so even though he was technically Russophone, he had been bilingual the whole time and switched to Ukrainian just a few years back and now speaks practically only Ukrainian.

    You also bring up the EU as something that is impossible or far away… don’t be so sure. EU integration does take decades, but I instinctively feel that the EU (or the US) will not let go of Ukraine. The US is currently going in pretty deep but is displaying a very hypocritical “yes/no” attitude (see the latest Kurt Volker interview with Gordon where he says that “Yes, you could be in NATO in the future”, but “No, we’re not going to fight a war with Russia for you or beside you” – so think about that… the goal is to just tie Ukraine in, without giving Ukraine any NATO like guarantees – Ukraine should be smart enough to see through this!).

    The EU is under stress, but there are countries that are deeply anchored in the Western world, that are not members of the EU. No EU membership plan could be a blessing because Ukraine can take time and decide for itself what type of cooperation to accept. This allows Ukraine freedom to say No to those Western demands and policies that are not in Ukraine’s interests.

    I reject the EU vs Russia dichotomy. It has been and will be our doom. Ukraine is large enough to be self-centered, to be magnetic, to become the distributor of good (благо). In the future, that is. Instead of bending either way, why not reignite the vision of Knyaz Svyatoslav? A modern version of it, of course! :)

    Btw, svidomisc is actually a really beautiful concept – it means enlightenment or striving after a higher consciousness / awareness.

  160. LatW says:
    @Thorfinnsson

    Now unskilled workers emigrating can be quite positive.

    Categorically disagree. Not in the case of EE – you’re projecting again. In EE, many of the “unskilled workers” or those who come from provinces are extremely valuable – they generally come from a healthy stock, often become athletes, some times models, or are simply normal people in the good sense of the word, have unpretentious personalities. They can be educated, trained.

    Brain drain has been very negative of course and it goes without saying that it’d be best to recover some of that diaspora population while it’s still in the most productive age, in their 20s and especially 30s-40s when they are most highly sought after as professionals and can start really giving back to society.

  161. Dmitry says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    I wonder if this is a kind of romantic image created by America (of being descendants of dynamic pirates, capitalists and nonconformists).

    If you look for example, at Italian Americans. It’s known that most emigrated from regions like Sicily, instead of more economically skilled regions like Milan.

    It wasn’t so much cool adventurers of Western films, as simple regions of poverty which determined Italian emigration to America.

    With Irish, there could have been something similar, due to famine situation of the 19th century forcing people to leave Ireland from desperation. It’s possible Irish in America, even represent lower human capital than the Irish still in Ireland. (As a childish personal observation, I think Irish in Ireland are probably better looking on average than Americans, and maybe represent a larger proportion of population who were successful enough to survive local problems).

    In case of Jews – Jews who emigrated to America from Russian Empire, could have represented on average more mobile segment of the population (which could imply more middle class). From late 19th century, however, there was the contrary emigration destination of Palestine, which attracted the radically far more adventurous, dynamic and vigorous young segment of the population.

    English Americans may more following the pattern you proposed? It began far earlier, and as a very voluntary immigration, and aside from religiously non-conformist groups, included (following more immigration “pull factors”, than “push factors”) many business entrepreneurs.

  162. Dmitry says:
    @Dmitry

    And of course, blacks in America, carried over as slave – probably with quite a lot of intentional or unintentional filtration for physical abilities relevant to slave life, including even the abusive journey across the ocean. This hypothesis superficially supported anyway, by their descendants’ success in winning Olympic medals, in comparison with the African countries from which they descended.

  163. @Swedish Family

    I would like to say that the Swedish is, but then there is Thorfinsson (who is potentially Swedish but won’t be fully Swedish to my mind until he has actually lived here).

    I agree with your view. I wasn’t born in Sweden, I didn’t grow in in Sweden, and I don’t live in Sweden. Culturally, I am much more American.

    I simply grew up speaking Swedish at home and have Swedish blood. I suppose I’ve also spent a fair amount of time in Sweden, including a few entire summers (attending a summer ice hockey camp in Dalecarlia was all kinds of fun when I was a child). This gives me some Swedish identity and affinity, but it’s not the same thing as being actually Swedish.

    Ties with the old country form a part of one’s cultural identity in New World countries, but as you would expect grow weaker with each generation.

  164. AP says:
    @Dmitry

    I recall reading a study about, I believe, Swedes, showing that those with more adventurous and individualistic personality traits were more likely to leave whereas the more timid and collectivistic ones stayed behind. Can’t find the study now and am not willing to spend more than a couple minutes to look for it.

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    , @Dmitry
  165. AP says:
    @Philip Owen

    They could have been throwing Molotov cocktails back out after they were thrown at them.

    At least one guy inside the building was also shooting out of it.

    Ironically throwing the Molotov cocktails out hampered rescue efforts. IIRC one of the tents was hit by a pro-Russian throwing out, rather than burned by the pro-Kiev mob.

    The point is that there were two angry, violent mobs well-armed with Molotov cocktails. The pro-Russians struck first and drew first blood (first person killed that day was a pro-Ukrainian). After losing the street battles the pro-Russians holed up in a fortified base well-stocked with their own weapons, a strategy that backfired (sorry) when the building went up in flames.

    After the nature of the situation became clear a lot of the pro-Ukrainians then set about rescuing the pro-Russians. They had wanted to beat people up and clear them off the streets, prevent the pro-Russians from taking over their city as had been done in Donetsk, but didn’t want to kill them. They were violent hooligans, not mass murderers.

    To present the events that day as peaceful, unarmed pro-Russians simply massacred by pro-Ukrainians focused on murder is a lie and those who peddle such a story are dishonest.

  166. @Dmitry

    But emigration to America was always a choice, though.

    And the poorest Irish or Italians never emigrated. You needed a substantial amount of money to pay the transatlantic fare, which ruled out the very poor. Even by the early 20th century, a third class ticket on the Titanic cost six months’ worth of an unskilled worker’s wages. Much higher in earlier times!

    Palestine must have attracted the more nationalist, “blood and soil” Jews. Who’d be duller than other Jews. That is indeed what we see. :)

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    , @Mr. XYZ
  167. Dmitry says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    the poorest Irish or Italians never emigrated. You needed a substantial amount of money to pay the transatlantic fare, which ruled out the very poor.

    But also the bourgeois and landowning Irish, as well as educated professionals, would have too much to lose, to leave Ireland. So maybe there was some exit of the upper working classes?

    Irish Americans, are stereotypes as police and firefighters, or some kind of tough workers. This seems (in my childish superficial perception), so radically different from Irish personality in Ireland.

    Also I think a lot of that (tough working class) segment of the population have historically immigrated to the UK, and become British people.

    Irish personality in Ireland today, is mainly with a sense of relaxed, anti-authority people, that hate police, and smoke weed everywhere.

    Palestine must have attracted the more nationalist, “blood and soil” Jews. Who’d be duller than other Jews. That is indeed what we see. :)

    Current redneck politics of Israel I think is likely result of later immigration groups to Israel, rather than earlier immigration to Palestine.

    Israel’s Jewish population, for example, more than doubled in 1950s from Middle Eastern immigrants – and is descendants of this demographic which (along with Russian-speaking population, who are very recent) votes for Netanyahu today.

    Early immigration to Palestine, though, would be highly selective for almost crazy people, even after arrival, when they realize how many people are dying from malaria (and a large proportion would not stay there).

    According to Wikipedia

    “It is estimated that between 40% to 90% of those immigrants left Palestine again, most of them a few years after their arrival. ”

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Aliyah

  168. @AP

    There have long been claims that the triumph of social democracy in Sweden and Norway was only possible because the most adventurous quarter of each nation emigrated.

    I’m skeptical in light of Denmark, where far fewer emigrated.

    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
  169. Dmitry says:
    @AP

    If true, this could have perhaps become a precondition for the 20th century Swedish society. The more troublesome and nonconformist segment of the population leaving for America, allowing for the stable and conformist society to develop in the 20th century.

    Sweden in the 19th century was very poor though, so there would be greater (nonselective) “push” factor for emigration to America, compared to from countries like England?

  170. @Thorfinnsson

    OTOH, Denmark is known for being less conformist than Sweden.

    Does that stereotype predate the American emigration?

  171. Mr. XYZ says:
    @AP

    Actually, Kazakhstan is slightly less than 20% Russian right now:

    http://pop-stat.mashke.org/kazakhstan-ethnic2018.htm

    Adding the Ukrainians and Belarusians would probably add an additional couple of percent. Thus, we’re probably looking at Kazakhstan being something like 25% Slavic right now–a percentage which is declining with each year. This certainly isn’t 1989 anymore.

    If Ukraine is 15% Russian right now, then it’s possible that it’s 25% Russophone right now. I don’t know what percentage of Kazakhstan’s population is Russophone if one defines Russophone as having Russian as one’s first language. However, I doubt that many Kazakhs would fit this description and they are currently about two-thirds of Kazakhstan’s total population.

    As for Kazakhs, it’s not outside of the realm of possibility that Kazakh resistance to Russian rule wasn’t as fierce as Ukrainian resistance to Russian rule due to the very real possibility that the Kazakhs were less technologically advanced in comparison to the Russians than the Ukrainians were. Of course, I certainly don’t rule out the possibility that the improvements in the Kazakh quality of life under Russian rule resulted in a lot of Kazakhs supporting continued Russian rule before 1991.

  172. Mr. XYZ says:
    @Dmitry

    In regards to Jews, the weak top performance of Israeli Jews on PISA combined with the extremely impressive achievements of Diaspora and especially American Jews does make me think that the smarter Ashkenazi Jews were the ones who immigrated to the U.S. (and to countries such as Britain, Canada, Australia, et cetera).

    If the Ashkenazi Jews who remained in Eastern Europe right before the Holocaust had comparable IQs to Israeli Ashkenazi Jews (on average, of course), then the Holocaust would not have hurt scientific and technological research as much as it would have were the murdered Ashkenazi Jews, on average, as intelligent as American Jews were.

  173. Mr. XYZ says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    What’s interesting is that, on average, even ex-USSR Jews don’t perform that well in Israel:

    https://www.timesofisrael.com/why-yoni-and-yael-cant-do-math/

    One would think that ex-USSR Jews would perform very well on Israel since Jews were the cognitive elite of the Soviet Union. However, they don’t. I know that there was a lot of intermarriage between Jews and other ethnic groups in the latter decades of the Soviet Union, but didn’t some of this intermarriage involve assortative mating (which would mean that the effect on their children’s IQ should not have been as significant)?

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  174. While it might be useful to assess the traits of the milleu of which people emigrated from, perhaps it is worth asking whether there is something in the process of emigration and deracination that introduces a certain amount of aberrant qualities in emigrants?

    While the old land provides the basis for the traits of the new diaspora people, the conditions of the new land shapes them as well.

  175. Mr. XYZ says:
    @AP

    Also, in regards to the Eurasian Economic Union, please keep in mind that, unlike Ukraine, Kazakhstan doesn’t appear to have had any alternative options in regards to this. An economic union with China would be even worse than with Russia due to the population disparity and a Central Asian Union makes no sense without Uzbekistan. Plus, in any case, Kazakhstan appears to highly value its sovereignty and is thus uninterested in transforming the Eurasian Economic Union into a political union.

  176. Mikhail says: • Website
    @AP

    They are also happy within the Eurasian Customs Union. Ukrainians were quiet in the 19th century but prior to that you had Mazepa, Vyhovsky – and then the various warlords fighting against the Russians in the early 20th.

    Mazepa was an opportunist, who in large part lost on account of most of the Cossacks not going along with his betrayal of Peter. He gambled that Sweden and its weaker Polish ally would military succeed against Russia. There’s the view that Mazepa sought to replace Peter as leader of a Swedish-Polish aligned Russian Empire.

    Vyhovsly couldn’t muster a majority Cossack support for his going against Russia.

  177. Dmitry says:
    @Mr. XYZ

    I think Israel is around 30% Ashkenazi or less, although the secular ones represents more in country’s leftwing (ultra liberal) elite.

    Politics in Israel is a war between ultra liberal/left elite, and a more redneck majority (with many different ethnic groups, as well as some religious groups).

    Majority in Israel are still brown people of variegated types.

    Russian speakers have highest academic scores in Israel, although mainly constituting some lower middle class compared to Ashkenazi people. A proportion are stereotypical “gopniks” (working class) wearing Adidas.

    As for their maths situation. It would be more interesting to study composition of work force (what proportion are using maths in their job).

    Workforce composition will be the main reflection of a country’s maths ability. Israel is quite socialistic island (with import substitution), so it has a high amount of working class jobs. But there is also a segment of the economy who use maths in their jobs.

    PISA doesn’t measure maths (there’s no maths contained in the exam), but it measures cultural assimilation. In Russia, PISA maths scores increased in the same epoch that maths standards itself collapses in the schools, and the higher part of the exam has recently become non-compulsory (although at least still a large proportion are taking the now optional higher exam, proportion falling in the last few years).

    So for a country to worry about its PISA scores is very dangerous, as these can increase, as the academic standards are falling (or vice-versa).

  178. @Dmitry

    Successful emigrants to the US returned. My Great Grandfather and his brothers regularly travelled to Chicago (and paid for their Irish labourers to make the trip too) to work as carpenters.

    Most independent Irish emigrants to the US were the second sons of strong farmers. Her majesty Queen Victoria paid for many to emigrate to Australia in the 19th C but before that, it was cheaper to send the poor to North America by ship than feed them in Ireland and before that, the Caribbean and the Southern US Colonies were destinations for indentured labourers. (petty criminals, debtors). So the poor had ways of getting across the Atlantic too.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  179. @AP

    You seem to know very little about the Kazakhs. They weren’t under Russian rule in the 18th century, so they didn’t rise up against it back then. Anyway, they rose up in the 20th, where did you get the idea they didn’t?

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basmachi_movement?wprov=sfti1

    Their numbers were smaller and they had less weapons or military training, because tellingly the Tsars exempted them from conscription, unlike the Ukrainians who were trusted enough that they could be drafted into the army.

    Kazakhstan is like 40% Russian

    25% Russian and decreasing, but I was talking about annexing Kazakh lands and assimilating Kazakhs.

  180. @AP

    I’m more focused on “a member of the Advisory Boards of the Institute of Law and Public Policy in Moscow.”

    He also did work in the USSR when it was the USSR:

    Worked at Mir Science and Technology Publishing House, Moscow, Russia.

    AWARDS, HONORS: British Council scholarship, Moscow State University, 1979–80.

    He looks like another “expert” on Ukraine who only has experience with Russia. They are a dime a dozen.

    If your position is the bolded part (that Sakwa is unreliable from lack of Ukrainian expertise), then I might not disagree (I don’t know myself and have no time to look into it). The other objections I answer with the argument that we should give any Western scholar with ties to Russia the benefit of the doubt unless his academic peers raise alarm.

    Even some of Yanukovich’s people have had op-eds posted there. So?

    I’m sure they have, but would you seriously disagree that these are exceptions to the norm that Kyiv Post pushes strongly pro-Washington and Pro-Maidan voices? My simple point is that all media outlets have an ideological bent that will inform whom they let on or not, so if we see someone’s byline in Kyiv Post, our safest bet is that he or she shares its political outlook.

    There are also pieces by Ukrainian nationalist Taras Kuzio and anti-Ukrainian nationalist Ivan Katchanovsky.

    But this reflects well on Sakwa, don’t you agree?

    That may be your excuse for lying my omission, but when you describe an event with one side throwing Molotov cocktails and conveniently leave out the fact that the other side also threw them, you produce a false story about nonviolent people being attacked and killed, rather than the real story of two violent groups clashing and one group losing.

    I don’t really disagree with you here — he should have mentioned it — I just don’t think it’s a serious enough omission to accuse him of lying by omission, which is really saying that he intentionally misled the reader by leaving out important facts.

    Assuming your numbers are accurate (do they come form Sakwa, who as we have seen lies by omission and therefore may lie by commission as well) it could represent underestimating the strength of the pro-Ukrainian group or the assumption that the Yanukovich-era police would take their side.

    Sakwa’s figure of 2,000 “pro-unity” supporters matches that in the UN report (http://www.ohchr.org/Documents/Countries/UA/HRMMUReport15June2014.pdf ; page 9); the number of “pro-federation” supporters, from what I can gather from the UN report, would have been about a fourth of that or less. In the UN report, we also find this highly interesting tidbit:

    “On 1 May, the police authorities issued an official statement announcing that due to possible disorder because of the football game, an additional 2,000 police officers would patrol the streets of Odesa.”

    If the UN report is right, then, we have in Odessa on May 2, 2014, 2,000 “pro-unity” supporters, 300-500 “pro-federation” supporters, and 2,000 policemen. But …

    “During the evening, it was reported to the HRMMU that a bare minimum police force was present at the Kulikovo Pole square. Even when the special riot police force arrived at the scene, the officers did not intervene in the violence that took place on the Kulikovo Pole square. The HRMMU was told by high ranking police officers that the reason for this is that they did not receive any formal order to intervene.”

    In other words, someone told the police not to intervene. Why did they not intervene? If you ask me — and I’m only guessing here; I could be wrong — they were ordered not to intervene because some big shot wanted Odessa’s federalist/separatist movement gone. What further makes me suspect that this is so is that a (failed) storming attempt on Slavyansk was launched on that same day:

    “When Sloviansk fell into the hands of the rebels and uprisings erupted in other cities, the next day—on April 13, 2014—the Anti-Terrorist Operation (ATO) was launched.29 It was announced by Rada’s speaker and acting president Oliksandr Turchynov who said that “we’re not going to allow Russia to repeat the Crimean scenario in Ukraine’s East.”30 Kyiv escalated the conflict by declaring the other side “terrorists,” with whom no talks could be held. The challenge to Strelkov did not take long to come, and the Ukrainian attack started immediately. First fighting casualties were sustained in Sloviansk on April 13 when Ukraine’s security service officer was killed and another five wounded.31 At least one pro-Russian activist –local rebel Ruben Avanesyan from Donetsk was also killed in the gunfire and two injured. Several young local rebels were killed in different episodes during April in the ATO attacks on their block posts32 outside Sloviansk. It is believed that one of the key combat roles in the armed action in Sloviansk was played by Romashka (call sign “Daisy,” real name Sergei Jurikov), a Ukrainian citizen born in Sevastopol who lived in Kyiv. Romashka was a church bell ringer and not a tough paratrooper as many who met him at the time thought. Romashka came with Strelkov from Crimea and was killed in the second serious bout of combat in May.33 On May 2–3, Kyiv attempted an offensive but lost in the first hours two Mi-24 helicopters which were firing at the rebel positions. One helicopter was shot down by Granddad, a 76-yer old Afghan war veteran from Russia and Strelkov’s mentor. When the ATO forces failed to take the city by storm as planned, they halted further direct infantry assaults.”

    (In Times of Trouble: Conflict in Southeastern Ukraine Explained from Within, Anna Matveeva, 2018)

    Prior to Odessa, there were similar clashes between pro-Russian mobs and pro-Ukrainian mobs in Donetsk. In Donetsk, the pro-Ukrainians lost and were driven out, and the city got into the hands of the anti-Ukrainians. The Russian activists were bragging that this would be repeated in Odessa. And it started out that way. The pro-Rusian mobs attacked the Ukrainian mob first. The first person killed in Odessa was a pro-Ukrainian.

    You could still be right, of course — I’m certainly leaving that option open — but it would not be my first guess.

    • Replies: @Mikhail
    , @AP
  181. @AP

    You are critical of the opinions of diaspora Ukrainians, who have family ties to Ukraine and who visit Ukraine, but apparently don’t have a problem with the outlandish claims of Russians who in some cases have never been to Ukraine.

    I am critical of both groups, but for different reasons. Russian commenters tend to display great ignorance of what things are really like in Ukraine*, while the great trouble with diaspora Ukrainians is that they mix up the interests of their adopted country with the interests of the old.

    *Not that I know all that much, but some of their claims are easily disproved

    • Replies: @AP
  182. @AP

    Found it – the poster who was a Ukrainian from Ukraine:

    https://www.unz.com/comments/all/?commenterfilter=Pavel

    I wasn’t thinking of Pavel — and didn’t know of him before, so make that 2 Ukrainian posters on here … The person I remember happened to be pro-Russian, but he might as well have been pro-Ukrainian. My point was that he wasn’t some cocksure chest-beater, the kind that empires tend to breed, but someone with a realistic idea of his people’s place in this world.

  183. Mikhail says: • Website
    @Swedish Family

    Overall, Sakwa doesn’t seem to be so ignorant of Ukrainian matters. I recall mention that his father (if I’m not mistaken) fought in Pilsudski’s army. If so, he has a family experience concerning that part of the world.

    He has appeared in openDemocracy, which tends to lean in an anti-Russian Sorosian direction:

    https://www.opendemocracy.net/author/richard-sakwa

    Some people purported to be expert on Ukraine lack some of the basics. A case in point is Umland referring to the Tatars as being indigenous to Crimea.

    • Replies: @AP
  184. AP says:
    @Mikhail

    Some people purported to be expert on Ukraine lack some of the basics. A case in point is Umland referring to the Tatars as being indigenous to Crimea.

    Crimean Tatars are indigenous to Crimea as Turks are to Anatolia or Mestizos are to Mexico. They are a mixture of invaders and the pre-invasion population.

    • Replies: @Mikhail
  185. AP says:
    @Swedish Family

    I was hardcore opposed to the Iraq war when it happened, and view Russia as a lesser evil in Syria; USA’s interests and Ukraine’s coincide now of course.

    • Replies: @Mr. XYZ
  186. AP says:
    @Swedish Family

    If your position is the bolded part (that Sakwa is unreliable from lack of Ukrainian expertise), then I might not disagree (I don’t know myself and have no time to look into it).

    It was Kuzio’s criticism of him, but his bio indicates Russian expertise, not Ukrainian. It’s like a scholar of Poland writing as if he is a Russia expert.

    The other objections I answer with the argument that we should give any Western scholar with ties to Russia the benefit of the doubt unless his academic peers raise alarm

    Kuzio raised an alarm, although he is also not without bias (he has a Ukrainian nationalist POV).

    There are also pieces by Ukrainian nationalist Taras Kuzio and anti-Ukrainian nationalist Ivan Katchanovsky.

    But this reflects well on Sakwa, don’t you agree?

    It seems to indicate that agreeing to be in a work he edited doesn’t mean the people in it agree that he is unbiased.

    I don’t really disagree with you here — he should have mentioned it — I just don’t think it’s a serious enough omission to accuse him of lying by omission

    It’s a serious omission because i’ts not an unimportant detail; when he describes the events he creates a very false impression, due to this omission.

    If the UN report is right, then, we have in Odessa on May 2, 2014, 2,000 “pro-unity” supporters, 300-500 “pro-federation” supporters, and 2,000 policemen.

    OK, numbers are correct.

    UN Report is much more objective and paints a more accurate picture than does Sakwa’s description.

    Pro-Russian activists on social media were urging each other to gather and crush the nationalists, as in Donetsk. They came armed, but may have underestimated how many people would come.

    In other words, someone told the police not to intervene. Why did they not intervene? If you ask me — and I’m only guessing here; I could be wrong — they were ordered not to intervene because some big shot wanted Odessa’s federalist/separatist movement gone.

    This is possible, and it is also possible that the pro-Russian demonstrator assumed that the police would be on their side, and that some were on the street level (allowing the pro-Russians to shoot at the pro-Ukrainians) but higher ups stopped serious intervention.

    • Replies: @Mr. XYZ
    , @Mikhail
  187. Mr. XYZ says:
    @AP

    Agreed that Assad appears to be the lesser evil in Syria.

    As for Iraq, it’s a shame that Saddam Hussein was a huge pain in the ass for the U.S. between 1990 and 2003. The U.S. constantly had to patrol no-fly zones over Iraq and its sanctions regime on Iraq was collapsing before 9/11. As for ISIS, some people have in part blamed Saddam Hussein’s Faith campaign in the last 10-15 years of his rule for this. Apparently the Faith campaign helped radicalize Iraqi Sunni Arabs and thus helped make them receptive to ISIS in the 2010s.

    Honestly, I don’t completely know what to make of the Iraq War. Saddam Hussein was a huge pain in the ass, but his overthrow did result in a lot of chaos in Iraq. On the other hand, though, some of this chaos might have been avoided had Iraqi Sunni Arabs been given more autonomy and/or a greater voice in the Iraqi government. Disbanding the Iraqi military starting from 2003 didn’t exactly help matters either.

  188. Mr. XYZ says:
    @AP

    Was it particularly wise to try staging a pro-Russian uprising in Odessa, though? I mean, Odessa is surrounded by both the Black Sea and Ukrainian-speaking territories:

    Were these pro-Russian demonstrators expecting a Russian naval invasion of Odessa? After all, that’s the main way that Russia could have provided immediate help to them.

    • Replies: @AP
  189. Mr. XYZ says:

    @AP: I have a question for you–had Russia not annexed Crimea and not supported the Donbass separatists starting from 2014, what do you think that the odds would have been of Russia eventually joining the European Union and establishing a giant informal Slavic and anti-migrant bloc within the EU?

    • Replies: @AP
    , @Philip Owen
  190. Dmitry says:
    @Philip Owen

    Maybe there was some historically downward selection then even for the English who went to (and didn’t return from) America?

    Definitely in Ireland probably something significant occurred in their remaining population profile, by losing most of their population to emigration.

  191. AP says:
    @Mr. XYZ

    In 2014 many Russians truly believed that the Yanukovich-voting “Blue Ukraine” would have joined Russia if only given the chance. They were bragging about “New Russia” falling into their lap, that the ethnic Ukrainians there would be happy to join Russia, etc.

    • Replies: @Mr. XYZ
  192. Mikhail says: • Website
    @AP

    The Rus Slav presence pre-dates the Tatars in Crimea.

    • Replies: @AP
    , @Philip Owen
  193. Mikhail says: • Website
    @AP

    Bottom line is that the Ukrainian nationalists’ action led to the deaths of the Odessa activists.

    Kuzio is part of a monopolized North American Ukrainian studies cabal, that’s extremely biased in its overview of Russo-Ukrainian matters.

  194. AP says:
    @Mikhail

    But not the Greeks and Ostrogoths whom the Tatars mixed with.

    • Replies: @Mikhail
  195. AP says:
    @Mr. XYZ

    I doubt the EU would have allowed Russia in, because doing so would have dramatically reduced the power of Germany and France within the EU, and USA over the EU. The powers-that-be would not have gone along with such a situation.

    More likely – had Russia not gotten mixed up with Ukraine, Ukraine would not have gone for NATO but would have joined the EU eventually and had been a generally Russia-friendly country within the EU, like Bulgaria. Contrary to assumptions based in Russian nationalist myopia, “Ukrainianism” is not inherently anti-Russian, and prior to 2014 even Galicia was friendly towards Russia. While Ukrainianism would have driven Ukraine into the EU it was not, at that time, fundamentally opposed to Russia.

    • Replies: @Mikhail
  196. Mikhail says: • Website
    @AP

    They also mixed with Slavs, while seeing themselves as Tatars. The Tatars themselves didn’t predominate in Crimea before the Rus era Slavs.

  197. Mikhail says: • Website
    @AP

    A good portion of it is, like the type dominating Ukrainian studies programs in North America.

  198. @Mr. XYZ

    Until 2004 Russia was all for joining the EU. Serious negotiations began in 2002. However, the EU, then the 15, was not going to immediately give membership to such a poor country with such divergent standards, massive corruption and uncertain democracy. Bulgaria was small enough to digest but under qualified majority voting, Russia alone would have had 40% of the vote and make no financial contribution of any kind. Russia would probably have led other Slavs such as Belarus and Ukraine so may have controlled over half the votes. All the countries concerned had vast, poverty stricken farming industries. The EU did offer a way forward but not full membership for the foreseeable future. Ukraine’s Association Agreement is a version of the deal that was discussed.

    On the Russian side, Putin was offended by the EU’s moderate enthusiasm. It did not correspond to his vision of Russia as a great power. By 2007 when things finally drifted to a rejection of even the Eastern Partnership, Russia’s dominant export was crude oil. Russia’s attitude was that the EU countries must buy oil (an gas) anyway. Membership wouldn’t do much for Russia’s exports. Like all good mercantilists Putin failed to grasp the importance of imports. Also, Putin was offended that Russia would have to join on the same terms as, say, Bulgaria. The EU cannot offer individual countries special deals. Then came Georgia.

    That is not the end of the story. Putin with advice from the EU, set out to construct the EEU. The EEU will not be a single country so in good time, Russia can use it to negotiate something close to voting membership on more flexible terms than Bulgaria. The EEU adopted the English language version of the EEU treaties as its founding document. The EEU is also harmonizing national technical and other standards with the EU. Whether they join the EU or not this is unavoidable. So, in the longer term, 20 years, the pieces are being positioned for the EEU or Russia to obtain something like EU membership. The UK did something similar with EFTA in the 50′s and 60′s.

    So whatever the rhetoric, Russia is laying the groundwork for membership or a very close relationship with the EU. It is inevitable. Neither China nor India are remotely close to the potential of the EU as a trading partners for Russia. (the gravity model of trade).

    As the Russian exchange rate demonstrates, the present price of oil is an artificial construct.

    • Replies: @Mr. XYZ
  199. @Mikhail

    There were English (Anglo-Saxon) colonies in Crimea about 1000 years ago. The losing side in the Norman Conquest went to Constantinople and joined the Varaganian Guard. They were given land around Crimean sea ports. Welsh, Scots and Irish went there in due course as the Normans advanced.

  200. Mr. XYZ says:
    @Philip Owen

    EU membership for Russia within the next 20 years seems rather unrealistic, no? After all, there is the issue of Russian aggression in Ukraine.

  201. Mr. XYZ says:
    @AP

    Yeah, that does appear to have been a miscalculation on their part. Of course, they could simply claim that if all of Blue Ukraine got the Crimean treatment, then there would have been a massive surge of support in favor of Russian rule in Blue Ukraine. Specifically, the claim would have been that while Blue Ukraine would have been mostly unwilling to actually fight on behalf of Russian rule, it would have come to accept Russian rule if Russia would have come to them and annexed them.

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