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An anti-Putin journalist gets her throat slashed by an intruder forcing his way into one of the last bastions of “free, independent journalism” in Russia.

As if that wasn’t enough, it came on the background of a recent Russian TV geopolitical drama series called “The Sleepers” – sort of a Russian analogue of “The Americans” – about CIA attempts to foment a color revolution in Russia, which was prominently featured on leading TV station Channel 1 and evidently enjoyed official support thanks to its “patriotic” themes. In particular, one scene featured the murder of a female liberal journalist by getting her throat cut, as part of a terrorist campaign against the pro-Western opposition that is orchestrated by the CIA as a false flag to discredit the Kremlin.

So not only was this a picture seemingly perfectly made for Western cameras, but it was also one further accentuated by the paranoia fuel provided by this dark example of fiction seeping into reality.

Predictably, the Russian liberal crowd wasted no time in rushing off to blame the Kremlin, Putinists, Channel 1, and Russians in general.

navalny-on-stabbing

Alexey Navalny: Nothing is clear yet. But they have already concluded: No politics, nothing to do with journalism. How interesting. First thing RIA and Interfax rush to tell us is that this is hooliganism, personal motives, and has no relation to journalism.

orlova-on-stabbing

Karina Orlova (Russia correspondent for The National Interest; also affiliated with Echo of Moscow): Everyone who doesn’t consider himself to be the lowest worm must name Minaev (the author of the scenario) a bastard, must name Ernst a bastard, must name the director Bykov a bastard, must name every actor in this series a bastard, and must stop communicating with them, greeting them, being friends with them, doing selfies with them. Any of my friends who are also friends with Minaev or any of the others, go fuck yourselves, you bitches, unFriend me immediately. And those of you who complained about the [liberal campaign of] smears against Bykov, please get the fuck out of here too.

dzyadko-on-stabbing

Tikhon Dzyadko (a well-known name in the narrow circles of the Russian liberal opposition): There are many psychos amongst Echo of Moscow’s listeners. If they learn from TV that Echo is an enemy, then they will draw their knives. You shitheads from Channel 1 – you are responsible for this.

Well, the least you could say was that he got the “many psychos amongst Echo of Moscow’s listeners” part right.

boris-grits

The man who stabbed Tatyana Felgenhayer, a liberal journalist at Echo of Moscow, was literally a mentally ill Jew, Israeli resident, and anti-Putin Ukraine supporter who believes she was telepathically hacking his brainwaves. Or, in other words, as many Russians joked, your representative Echo of Moscow listener (just substitute Putin for Tatyana Felgenhauer).

No, seriously, the perpetrator, Boris Grits, has been posting all about it on his blog since 2015. Here is his last post on the matter: https://bgrits68.wordpress.com/2015/12/16/diary/

Today I was finally convinced that hackers are working for this Felgengauer bitch.

For the last couple of days she started to look for a way to control my heart. She was trying to find a way to control and stop my breathing for a long time now. However, yesterday morning I woke up with a feeling of a steel ring around my heart. And this morning I had a feeling of heavy cold in my heart.

Due to this situation, now that she has transitioned from using me to satisfy her sexual desires to threatening my life, I have turned to a famous Moscow psychic, Mikhail Perepelitsin; I have known him for over 30 years, from my childhood days, when he treated me for nephritis.

I’ve asked him to have a look at this person, the person who follows me with such ruthless persistence and cruelty. Mikhail Lvovich asked me to send a photo of the person. And guess what happened at the exact moment I’ve tried to download her photo of the Internet? It broke. It worked fine before that, but I had to restart my mobile phone (I only have Internet access through my phone) several times to make it work again.

Now I’m not surprised that she instantly knows what I say and write, she watches me constantly.

Apart from giving us his Very Valuable Thoughts on how to contain Russia in Syria and the Ukraine, most of Grits’ blog is him whining about his failure to get an academic position at an Israeli university, despite having completed a postdoc at U.C. Davis and the University of Tel Aviv. This may have been the cause of his mental health problems.

Or Mossad (j/k).

boris-grits-jews-literally-did-this

What’s even funnier is that not only was Grits literally a “psycho Echo of Moscow listener,” he even had direct contacts with that clique.

Earlier this year, Grits had written to one Natalia Barschevskaya, asking her to provide him with legal advice (presumably to do with his failure to find academic employment). Accorging to her Twitter, Barschevskaya is a liberal socialite residing in “Moscow, London, and the entire world,” most of whose posts seem to be devoted to pouring dirt on Russia. Grits mentioned to her that he bathed her when she was 5-6 years old at a beach on the Black Sea. Back in 2014, Barschevskaya had written of a “romantic meeting” with Alexey Venediktov, the scandalous Jewish chief editor of Echo of Moscow, which suggests she revolves in that world.

The victim, Tatyana Felgenhauer, is herself an ethnic Russian, being the adoptive daughter of Pavel Felgenhauer, the military analyst who has predicted twelve of Russia’s past zero military defeats.

tl;dr version: It’s like a Jewish anecdote.

What happened: Schizo Jew suffering from paranoid delusions about Jews tries to murder the Russian adoptive daughter of a Jew at an anti-Putin media outlet headed by a Jew and financed by Gazprom.

Whom Russian liberals believe to be responsible: Putler, Channel 1, and Russian fascist scum in general.

 
• Category: Humor • Tags: Jews, Russia, Russian Media 
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  1. Dan Hayes says:

    Anatoly,

    This incident seems to be Marxist, that is up-to-date Marx Brothers.

    The Daily Mail has reported on it spinning it as a Putin Plot. Of course it is hilarious (especially since the victim is alive).

    And the frosting on the cake is that the whole anti-Putin operation is underwritten by Gazprom. How Convenient!

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  2. OT

    What are your thoughts on Xi Jinping Thought? I mean, it certainly is quite valuable, or else why incorporate it into the constitution?

    Read More
    • Replies: @neutral
    My thoughts on Xi Jinping are that he is way tougher than they keep on trying to portray Putin as. Look how he dealt with the liberals in Hong Kong, now look at how Putin deals with the liberals he lets them say and do what they want, in China they tolerate no such person trying to overthrow the regime. I suppose Xi has the benefit of being non white, it does grant him certain immunity from criticism (plus the fact that Hollywood is pushing big into the Chinese market).
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  3. It’s nice to see from Karina Orlova’s Facebook or VKontakte post that Russian liberal ladies have picked up the Anglosphere fashion of swearing like truck drivers to appear tough and “real”.

    On another topic, I notice at YouTube there’s another drama from the same channel about spy catching:

    Excellent.1 series

    1958 year. Maria Krapivina, a graduate of the Faculty of Law of the Leningrad University, Criminal Procedure and Forensic Science Department, receives a distribution to the UGRO of the Central District Police Department. Quite a girl, an honors pupil, the daughter of intelligent parents gets into the collective, consisting of war veterans who have been experienced in the war and are rude and experienced. On the first day, Masha wants to retire. But she gets into the hands of information about the traitor in the department, which is associated with a large and daring gang. Masha decides that her duty is to remain and uncover the “mole”. And besides, to prove that it is worth something …

    Read More
    • Replies: @MarkinPNW
    I just watched a little of the beginning; I loved that sawed-off short-barreled Mosin-Nagant rifle that one of the gangsters carried!
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  4. What I don’t get is why Ms. Felgenhayer was hacking Mr. Grits mind in the first place? Where is the Jewish solidarity?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
    Unfortunately this is one of those exceedingly rare occasions when my jewdar failed me (and with that name and visage who can blame me), but as it turns out, Tatyana Felgenhauer is actually ethnically Russian, being the adoptive daughter of Pavel Felgenhauer, a Jew.

    So I suppose her telepathic terrorism against a Jew was just her suppressed Russian ethnic genetic interests kicking in.
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  5. @Greasy William
    What I don't get is why Ms. Felgenhayer was hacking Mr. Grits mind in the first place? Where is the Jewish solidarity?

    Unfortunately this is one of those exceedingly rare occasions when my jewdar failed me (and with that name and visage who can blame me), but as it turns out, Tatyana Felgenhauer is actually ethnically Russian, being the adoptive daughter of Pavel Felgenhauer, a Jew.

    So I suppose her telepathic terrorism against a Jew was just her suppressed Russian ethnic genetic interests kicking in.

    Read More
    • LOL: utu
    • Replies: @Greasy William
    To me she looks like a half breed.
    , @Mr. Hack
    Aren't you part Jewish, Anatoly? How do you control your own competing genetic structure?

    I've noticed that you're taking more to referring to Putin as 'Putler' in your correspondence here? This moniker gained in popularity about 3.5 years ago, when Putin decided to take a play right out of Hitler's own playbook and invade neighboring Ukraine and quickly annex the Crimea under flimsy, if not non-existent pretexts. Surprised that it has finally caught on with you, and you now refer to Putin as such even in the title of this piece. Aren't you at least a little bit concerned that because of this possible perceived infraction, your own name may end up on some thought control agent's list of questionables? :-)

    , @Verymuchalive
    Anatoly, are you sure? Pavel Felgenhauer's Wiki entry says he's "Russlanddeutsche" ( German Russian). One bracket only ! A descendent of Germans brought into Russia from C18th onwards by Catherine the Great ( just spelling out to the punters who may not know ).
    I used to live over the road from a family of German Russians or is it Russian Germans, can't tell . Granny and Grandad got out of Archangel in 1919. They thought they were bound for Buenos Aires, but ended up in Aberdeen ! They were funny (peculiar) too.
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  6. @Anatoly Karlin
    Unfortunately this is one of those exceedingly rare occasions when my jewdar failed me (and with that name and visage who can blame me), but as it turns out, Tatyana Felgenhauer is actually ethnically Russian, being the adoptive daughter of Pavel Felgenhauer, a Jew.

    So I suppose her telepathic terrorism against a Jew was just her suppressed Russian ethnic genetic interests kicking in.

    To me she looks like a half breed.

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    • Replies: @Andrei Martyanov

    To me she looks like a half breed.
     
    She looks like a typical Jewish girl. I may not like her politics (hell, anything from Echo of Matzo is sewer) but I, certainly, do not want the girl suffer, especially from the hands of a complete nutjob.
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  7. iffen says:

    despite having completed a postdoc at U.C. Davis and the University of Tel Aviv. This may have been the cause of his mental health problems.

    Going to UC Davis or UTA?

    Read More
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  8. neutral says:
    @reiner Tor
    OT

    What are your thoughts on Xi Jinping Thought? I mean, it certainly is quite valuable, or else why incorporate it into the constitution?

    My thoughts on Xi Jinping are that he is way tougher than they keep on trying to portray Putin as. Look how he dealt with the liberals in Hong Kong, now look at how Putin deals with the liberals he lets them say and do what they want, in China they tolerate no such person trying to overthrow the regime. I suppose Xi has the benefit of being non white, it does grant him certain immunity from criticism (plus the fact that Hollywood is pushing big into the Chinese market).

    Read More
    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    Apparently nobody is interested in Xi Jinping Thought, except me and neutral. :(
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  9. If you have to rely on the Western MSM for your news, then your understanding of this story will be completely distorted. It is depressing how many intelligent, otherwise educated people still don’t realise how warped the reportage of the MSM is.
    In their minds Putler lives, going round murdering independent journalists and rigging democratic elections in America and elsewhere. The only comforting thought is that as internet use expands further, those sort of people will age and die off, hopefully to be replaced by more discerning minds.

    Read More
    • LOL: iffen
    • Replies: @Verymuchalive
    Starting with you, iffen.
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  10. ussr andy says:

    What happened: Schizo Jew suffering from paranoid delusions about Jews tries to murder the Russian adoptive daughter of a Jew at an anti-Putin media outlet headed by a Jew and financed by Gazprom.

    Whom Russian liberals believe to be responsible: Putler, Channel 1, and Russian fascist scum in general.

    no different than every tiny injustice against blacks or wimmin, even if perpetrated by other blaxx or other wimmin, being the fault of “white males.”

    it’s begun. Russia is not safe from CultMarx anymore.

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  11. Mr. Hack says:
    @Anatoly Karlin
    Unfortunately this is one of those exceedingly rare occasions when my jewdar failed me (and with that name and visage who can blame me), but as it turns out, Tatyana Felgenhauer is actually ethnically Russian, being the adoptive daughter of Pavel Felgenhauer, a Jew.

    So I suppose her telepathic terrorism against a Jew was just her suppressed Russian ethnic genetic interests kicking in.

    Aren’t you part Jewish, Anatoly? How do you control your own competing genetic structure?

    I’ve noticed that you’re taking more to referring to Putin as ‘Putler’ in your correspondence here? This moniker gained in popularity about 3.5 years ago, when Putin decided to take a play right out of Hitler’s own playbook and invade neighboring Ukraine and quickly annex the Crimea under flimsy, if not non-existent pretexts. Surprised that it has finally caught on with you, and you now refer to Putin as such even in the title of this piece. Aren’t you at least a little bit concerned that because of this possible perceived infraction, your own name may end up on some thought control agent’s list of questionables? :-)

    Read More
    • Replies: @fredyetagain aka superhonky
    "I’ve noticed that you’re taking more to referring to Putin as ‘Putler’ in your correspondence here? This moniker gained in popularity about 3.5 years ago, when Putin decided to take a play right out of Hitler’s own playbook and invade neighboring Ukraine and quickly annex the Crimea under flimsy, if not non-existent pretexts. Surprised that it has finally caught on with you, and you now refer to Putin as such even in the title of this piece. Aren’t you at least a little bit concerned that because of this possible perceived infraction, your own name may end up on some thought control agent’s list of questionables? :-)"

    Anatoly's use of the tired old 'Putler' moniker is obviously satirical, dumbass.
    , @The Big Red Scary
    Мистер Гак, while contra Anatoly I think that Russia taking over Ukraine proper, for example Kiev, would be absolutely disastrous (and is not going to happen anyway), the annexation of Crimea was completely predictable, and inevitable in the circumstances. Almost every country that has signed an EU association agreement has gone on to join NATO, and *no* leader of Russia would run the risk of losing Sevastopol to NATO. This isn’t about Putin versus Putler versus Putlet. It’s just simple geopolitics, like it or not.
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  12. @Mr. Hack
    Aren't you part Jewish, Anatoly? How do you control your own competing genetic structure?

    I've noticed that you're taking more to referring to Putin as 'Putler' in your correspondence here? This moniker gained in popularity about 3.5 years ago, when Putin decided to take a play right out of Hitler's own playbook and invade neighboring Ukraine and quickly annex the Crimea under flimsy, if not non-existent pretexts. Surprised that it has finally caught on with you, and you now refer to Putin as such even in the title of this piece. Aren't you at least a little bit concerned that because of this possible perceived infraction, your own name may end up on some thought control agent's list of questionables? :-)

    “I’ve noticed that you’re taking more to referring to Putin as ‘Putler’ in your correspondence here? This moniker gained in popularity about 3.5 years ago, when Putin decided to take a play right out of Hitler’s own playbook and invade neighboring Ukraine and quickly annex the Crimea under flimsy, if not non-existent pretexts. Surprised that it has finally caught on with you, and you now refer to Putin as such even in the title of this piece. Aren’t you at least a little bit concerned that because of this possible perceived infraction, your own name may end up on some thought control agent’s list of questionables? :-)”

    Anatoly’s use of the tired old ‘Putler’ moniker is obviously satirical, dumbass.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
    Yes, I would have thought it rather obvious, but (to some) apparently not...
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  13. Mr. Hack says:

    Anatoly’s use of the tired old ‘Putler’ moniker is obviously satirical, dumbass.

    Is it? He seems rather critical of Putler lately. The Putler thought police have been harassing and arresting some of Karlin’s fellow nationalists on other right wing nationalist sites…

    Read More
    • Replies: @gerad

    Is it? He seems rather critical of Putler lately. The Putler thought police have been harassing and arresting some of Karlin’s fellow nationalists on other right wing nationalist sites…
     
    Americans are always critical of their political structure ,parts of their culture and history....until somebody from another country comments on these flaws....then these same inane Americans will illogically claim their system,culture and history is "perfect" and "exceptional"...and "the only hope for the world"

    Of course Vladimir Vladimirovich, just like Vladimir Volfovitz....... is worth a million Saakashvili's,Poroshenko,Timoshenko,Yushchenko,Obama,Rooseveld,Clinton and Kuchma's put together
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  14. @Mr. Hack
    Aren't you part Jewish, Anatoly? How do you control your own competing genetic structure?

    I've noticed that you're taking more to referring to Putin as 'Putler' in your correspondence here? This moniker gained in popularity about 3.5 years ago, when Putin decided to take a play right out of Hitler's own playbook and invade neighboring Ukraine and quickly annex the Crimea under flimsy, if not non-existent pretexts. Surprised that it has finally caught on with you, and you now refer to Putin as such even in the title of this piece. Aren't you at least a little bit concerned that because of this possible perceived infraction, your own name may end up on some thought control agent's list of questionables? :-)

    Мистер Гак, while contra Anatoly I think that Russia taking over Ukraine proper, for example Kiev, would be absolutely disastrous (and is not going to happen anyway), the annexation of Crimea was completely predictable, and inevitable in the circumstances. Almost every country that has signed an EU association agreement has gone on to join NATO, and *no* leader of Russia would run the risk of losing Sevastopol to NATO. This isn’t about Putin versus Putler versus Putlet. It’s just simple geopolitics, like it or not.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    Although I don't think that the extension of the float agreement made between Yanukovich and Putin was a good one for Ukraine, I don't think that it would have been reneged on by any subsequent Ukrainian governments. Russia actually abrogated this contract, therefore making Ukraine's possible future relations with NATO more realistic. Keep in mind that prior to Putin's Ukrainian adventure, most Ukrainians were squarely opposed to Ukrainian involvement with NATO. Not anymore.
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  15. Mr. Hack says:
    @The Big Red Scary
    Мистер Гак, while contra Anatoly I think that Russia taking over Ukraine proper, for example Kiev, would be absolutely disastrous (and is not going to happen anyway), the annexation of Crimea was completely predictable, and inevitable in the circumstances. Almost every country that has signed an EU association agreement has gone on to join NATO, and *no* leader of Russia would run the risk of losing Sevastopol to NATO. This isn’t about Putin versus Putler versus Putlet. It’s just simple geopolitics, like it or not.

    Although I don’t think that the extension of the float agreement made between Yanukovich and Putin was a good one for Ukraine, I don’t think that it would have been reneged on by any subsequent Ukrainian governments. Russia actually abrogated this contract, therefore making Ukraine’s possible future relations with NATO more realistic. Keep in mind that prior to Putin’s Ukrainian adventure, most Ukrainians were squarely opposed to Ukrainian involvement with NATO. Not anymore.

    Read More
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  16. It’s a prisoner’s dilemma. Both sides would be better off if they had coordinated non-defection (say Ukraine declaring itself neutral, like Austria, and Russia declaring itself neutral with respect to the EU association agreement), but once one side suspects the other of defecting, the result is predictable and inevitable.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    Putin made a big mistake in trying to prop up Yanukovich to the very bitter end. The Russia card in Ukraine would have remained strong to this very day, had Putin (Putler?) not gone off the deep end and overreacted like he did. What chances are there now that Ukraine will cozily slip back into Russia's orbit? Even if it were somehow to do so, its loyalties to Russia would now always be marked with suspicion, if not outright distrust. Say Russia would not have tried to interfere after the Maidan as much in Ukraine's internal affairs as it did, don't you think that it would have a much more credible and important voice in Ukraine's internal affairs today? Yanukovich was really never very loyal to Putin in the first place, and because of Putin's subsequent miscalculations, it seems that Russia has lost Ukraine's willing participation in its geo-political designs. Big mistakes that will negatively impinge upon Ukraine/Russia relation for a long time to come.
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  17. Mr. Hack says:
    @The Big Red Scary
    It’s a prisoner’s dilemma. Both sides would be better off if they had coordinated non-defection (say Ukraine declaring itself neutral, like Austria, and Russia declaring itself neutral with respect to the EU association agreement), but once one side suspects the other of defecting, the result is predictable and inevitable.

    Putin made a big mistake in trying to prop up Yanukovich to the very bitter end. The Russia card in Ukraine would have remained strong to this very day, had Putin (Putler?) not gone off the deep end and overreacted like he did. What chances are there now that Ukraine will cozily slip back into Russia’s orbit? Even if it were somehow to do so, its loyalties to Russia would now always be marked with suspicion, if not outright distrust. Say Russia would not have tried to interfere after the Maidan as much in Ukraine’s internal affairs as it did, don’t you think that it would have a much more credible and important voice in Ukraine’s internal affairs today? Yanukovich was really never very loyal to Putin in the first place, and because of Putin’s subsequent miscalculations, it seems that Russia has lost Ukraine’s willing participation in its geo-political designs. Big mistakes that will negatively impinge upon Ukraine/Russia relation for a long time to come.

    Read More
    • Replies: @The Big Red Scary
    As I’ve said here many times, I don’t have a dog in this fight, and very few people around here are arguing that the “nanogeniuses in the Kremlin” have handled the situation well. But I find the statement that Putin “propped up Yanukovich to the end” rather strange. So far as I can tell, he handled Yanukovych the exact same way he handled Tymoschenko or any other Ukrainian leader: bribery. The EU and the US do the same. Given that’s how things work, the only legal way to remove Yanukovich was to vote him out. He agreed to an early election, and two days later there was an armed coup and he fled. And at least this time, we really can blame that not on the liberals and Jews, but on the fascists. Personally, I can respect a liberal, a Jew, or a fascist, so long as they more or less play by the rules, but the consequences of totally unlawful seizure of power are grave.
    , @Alfred
    Ukraine is going back into Russia's orbit. It is inevitable. What happened in Kiev was a putsch. Everyone outside the USA knows that.
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  18. @fredyetagain aka superhonky
    "I’ve noticed that you’re taking more to referring to Putin as ‘Putler’ in your correspondence here? This moniker gained in popularity about 3.5 years ago, when Putin decided to take a play right out of Hitler’s own playbook and invade neighboring Ukraine and quickly annex the Crimea under flimsy, if not non-existent pretexts. Surprised that it has finally caught on with you, and you now refer to Putin as such even in the title of this piece. Aren’t you at least a little bit concerned that because of this possible perceived infraction, your own name may end up on some thought control agent’s list of questionables? :-)"

    Anatoly's use of the tired old 'Putler' moniker is obviously satirical, dumbass.

    Yes, I would have thought it rather obvious, but (to some) apparently not…

    Read More
    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    Give me some credit, Anatoly. At least I prefaced my question with stating that I was 'surprised'. :-)

    Besides, you really have been questioning 'Putler's' thought crime police lately...

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  19. Mr. Hack says:
    @Anatoly Karlin
    Yes, I would have thought it rather obvious, but (to some) apparently not...

    Give me some credit, Anatoly. At least I prefaced my question with stating that I was ‘surprised’. :-)

    Besides, you really have been questioning ‘Putler’s’ thought crime police lately…

    Read More
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  20. MarkinPNW says:
    @Cagey Beast
    It's nice to see from Karina Orlova's Facebook or VKontakte post that Russian liberal ladies have picked up the Anglosphere fashion of swearing like truck drivers to appear tough and "real".

    On another topic, I notice at YouTube there's another drama from the same channel about spy catching:


    Excellent.1 series

    1958 year. Maria Krapivina, a graduate of the Faculty of Law of the Leningrad University, Criminal Procedure and Forensic Science Department, receives a distribution to the UGRO of the Central District Police Department. Quite a girl, an honors pupil, the daughter of intelligent parents gets into the collective, consisting of war veterans who have been experienced in the war and are rude and experienced. On the first day, Masha wants to retire. But she gets into the hands of information about the traitor in the department, which is associated with a large and daring gang. Masha decides that her duty is to remain and uncover the "mole". And besides, to prove that it is worth something ...
     

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pnuyZz1cGYw

    I just watched a little of the beginning; I loved that sawed-off short-barreled Mosin-Nagant rifle that one of the gangsters carried!

    Read More
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  21. She should seek asylum in Malta.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Verymuchalive
    Yes, I suppose a car bomb is more effective than a knife. But I doubt that Malta would be willing to accept her. It is the only European State that has completely and naturally absorbed its Jewish minority- meaning it has no Jewish minority left - probably because it is the only European semitic state. I do speak from experience.
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  22. @Verymuchalive
    If you have to rely on the Western MSM for your news, then your understanding of this story will be completely distorted. It is depressing how many intelligent, otherwise educated people still don't realise how warped the reportage of the MSM is.
    In their minds Putler lives, going round murdering independent journalists and rigging democratic elections in America and elsewhere. The only comforting thought is that as internet use expands further, those sort of people will age and die off, hopefully to be replaced by more discerning minds.

    Starting with you, iffen.

    Read More
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  23. @Mr. Hack
    Putin made a big mistake in trying to prop up Yanukovich to the very bitter end. The Russia card in Ukraine would have remained strong to this very day, had Putin (Putler?) not gone off the deep end and overreacted like he did. What chances are there now that Ukraine will cozily slip back into Russia's orbit? Even if it were somehow to do so, its loyalties to Russia would now always be marked with suspicion, if not outright distrust. Say Russia would not have tried to interfere after the Maidan as much in Ukraine's internal affairs as it did, don't you think that it would have a much more credible and important voice in Ukraine's internal affairs today? Yanukovich was really never very loyal to Putin in the first place, and because of Putin's subsequent miscalculations, it seems that Russia has lost Ukraine's willing participation in its geo-political designs. Big mistakes that will negatively impinge upon Ukraine/Russia relation for a long time to come.

    As I’ve said here many times, I don’t have a dog in this fight, and very few people around here are arguing that the “nanogeniuses in the Kremlin” have handled the situation well. But I find the statement that Putin “propped up Yanukovich to the end” rather strange. So far as I can tell, he handled Yanukovych the exact same way he handled Tymoschenko or any other Ukrainian leader: bribery. The EU and the US do the same. Given that’s how things work, the only legal way to remove Yanukovich was to vote him out. He agreed to an early election, and two days later there was an armed coup and he fled. And at least this time, we really can blame that not on the liberals and Jews, but on the fascists. Personally, I can respect a liberal, a Jew, or a fascist, so long as they more or less play by the rules, but the consequences of totally unlawful seizure of power are grave.

    Read More
    • Agree: melanf
    • Replies: @Pavlo
    Hack is a mental defective - all Ukrainian nationalists are.

    Don't waste words. If you want to help, FedEx him his very own tard helmet.
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  24. @jimmyriddle
    She should seek asylum in Malta.

    Yes, I suppose a car bomb is more effective than a knife. But I doubt that Malta would be willing to accept her. It is the only European State that has completely and naturally absorbed its Jewish minority- meaning it has no Jewish minority left – probably because it is the only European semitic state. I do speak from experience.

    Read More
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  25. @Greasy William
    To me she looks like a half breed.

    To me she looks like a half breed.

    She looks like a typical Jewish girl. I may not like her politics (hell, anything from Echo of Matzo is sewer) but I, certainly, do not want the girl suffer, especially from the hands of a complete nutjob.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Greasy William
    I think you haven't seen many Jewish people if you think she looks like a "typical" Jewish girl. Maybe she looks like a typical 3/4 Russian, 1/4 Jewish girl.

    Somebody above said that she is of ethnic German descent and I can definitely see that. She doesn't look very Russian.
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  26. @Anatoly Karlin
    Unfortunately this is one of those exceedingly rare occasions when my jewdar failed me (and with that name and visage who can blame me), but as it turns out, Tatyana Felgenhauer is actually ethnically Russian, being the adoptive daughter of Pavel Felgenhauer, a Jew.

    So I suppose her telepathic terrorism against a Jew was just her suppressed Russian ethnic genetic interests kicking in.

    Anatoly, are you sure? Pavel Felgenhauer’s Wiki entry says he’s “Russlanddeutsche” ( German Russian). One bracket only ! A descendent of Germans brought into Russia from C18th onwards by Catherine the Great ( just spelling out to the punters who may not know ).
    I used to live over the road from a family of German Russians or is it Russian Germans, can’t tell . Granny and Grandad got out of Archangel in 1919. They thought they were bound for Buenos Aires, but ended up in Aberdeen ! They were funny (peculiar) too.

    Read More
    • Replies: @LondonBob
    I met a couple of Crypto-Jews when I lived in Moscow. Being of partial Welsh descent and thus having dark hair and dark eyes I was surprised to find some acquaintances thought I were Jewish. Not a phenomenon I had come across before. My old Russian boss in London was convinced several of the central Asian, Caucasian oligarchs were Crypto-Jews, I expect some are.
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  27. Onanymous says:

    Russia actually abrogated this contract, therefore making Ukraine’s possible future relations with NATO more realistic. Keep in mind that prior to Putin’s Ukrainian adventure, most Ukrainians were squarely opposed to Ukrainian involvement with NATO. Not anymore.

    Russia intentionally pushes Ukraine into NATO. Russian complaints about “NATO expansion” are just for show, like Western complaints about mythical “Russian threat”.

    Eastern Europe has to be equipped with NATO weapons.

    Read More
    • Replies: @LondonBob
    Russia tried to join NATO after Poland joined and in Putin's first few years, they were rebuffed because the US believed Russia would become an alternate power centre in NATO. I can see why the Ukraine or Belarus joining NATO would matter, the Balts what does it matter.
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  28. Onanymous says:

    The Putler thought police have been harassing and arresting some of Karlin’s fellow nationalists on other right wing nationalist sites…

    Mr. Putler clearly wants to promote right-wing nationalists.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    Not according to Karlin. Do any of you loyal Karlinites even read what he posts here? Recently, while lamenting the fates of Russian nationalists like Dmitry Bobrov and Konstantyn Krylov, he was inspired to put down his 7 rules of fighting the 'kafkayesque' Russian hate laws. Number 3 was the clincher for me: 'Don't be an Oppositionist'. But what can you expect when the man running the show is an 'authoritarian figure' I say...http://www.unz.com/akarlin/country-282/
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  29. Pavlo says:
    @The Big Red Scary
    As I’ve said here many times, I don’t have a dog in this fight, and very few people around here are arguing that the “nanogeniuses in the Kremlin” have handled the situation well. But I find the statement that Putin “propped up Yanukovich to the end” rather strange. So far as I can tell, he handled Yanukovych the exact same way he handled Tymoschenko or any other Ukrainian leader: bribery. The EU and the US do the same. Given that’s how things work, the only legal way to remove Yanukovich was to vote him out. He agreed to an early election, and two days later there was an armed coup and he fled. And at least this time, we really can blame that not on the liberals and Jews, but on the fascists. Personally, I can respect a liberal, a Jew, or a fascist, so long as they more or less play by the rules, but the consequences of totally unlawful seizure of power are grave.

    Hack is a mental defective – all Ukrainian nationalists are.

    Don’t waste words. If you want to help, FedEx him his very own tard helmet.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    I'm a 'Ukrainian nationalist' because I suggest that Putin backed the wrong horse in backing Yanukovich? Hasn't Karlin suggested the same himself, as have many other Russophiles?

    Your own commentary is just brilliant!
    , @Anon

    Hack is a mental defective – all Ukrainian nationalists are.
     
    Not all, but Hack is a hack.
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  30. @Andrei Martyanov

    To me she looks like a half breed.
     
    She looks like a typical Jewish girl. I may not like her politics (hell, anything from Echo of Matzo is sewer) but I, certainly, do not want the girl suffer, especially from the hands of a complete nutjob.

    I think you haven’t seen many Jewish people if you think she looks like a “typical” Jewish girl. Maybe she looks like a typical 3/4 Russian, 1/4 Jewish girl.

    Somebody above said that she is of ethnic German descent and I can definitely see that. She doesn’t look very Russian.

    Read More
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  31. Mr. Hack says:
    @Pavlo
    Hack is a mental defective - all Ukrainian nationalists are.

    Don't waste words. If you want to help, FedEx him his very own tard helmet.

    I’m a ‘Ukrainian nationalist’ because I suggest that Putin backed the wrong horse in backing Yanukovich? Hasn’t Karlin suggested the same himself, as have many other Russophiles?

    Your own commentary is just brilliant!

    Read More
    • Replies: @Pavlo
    Ok. So you're not a Ukrainian nationalist - presumably then you defend this ludicrous abomination of a country only for money. If that's the case, work a bit harder for your bread - don't use arguments that make you sound like both a moron and a schizoid.
    , @E
    You are definitely a Ukrainian nationalist. Who else would make a comment like this:
    http://www.unz.com/akarlin/putler-abuses-jewish-bodies/#comment-2055664

    I suppose you might also be a "Russian liberal" or Latvian nationalist, but they're all on the same team anyway, supporting each other's causes.

    You're certainly not a "regular Westerner", because Westerners aren't familiar with those insults that you used (vatnik, sovok, neanderthalic Homo sovieticus). Your vocabulary gives you away.

    I personally think that, given how many comments you post here, it's most likely that you're being paid to do this. The other option is that you're really, really into this political ideology stuff, perhaps to the detriment of other things in your life (I mean, it certainly would be for me if I posted that much).
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  32. Pavlo says:
    @Mr. Hack
    I'm a 'Ukrainian nationalist' because I suggest that Putin backed the wrong horse in backing Yanukovich? Hasn't Karlin suggested the same himself, as have many other Russophiles?

    Your own commentary is just brilliant!

    Ok. So you’re not a Ukrainian nationalist – presumably then you defend this ludicrous abomination of a country only for money. If that’s the case, work a bit harder for your bread – don’t use arguments that make you sound like both a moron and a schizoid.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    I defend the idea of a free and independent Ukraine, as I would any other country that aspires to such ideals. Why can't Russia just learn to accept Ukraine, as has been lamented by so many others, as the Swedes have learned to accept the Norwegians, or the Danes have learned to accept the Swedes? Czechs and Slovaks, English and Irish, finally? Why must Ukraine need to disappear within the 'protective'arms of an imperial Russia?
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  33. Mr. Hack says:
    @Onanymous

    The Putler thought police have been harassing and arresting some of Karlin’s fellow nationalists on other right wing nationalist sites…
     
    Mr. Putler clearly wants to promote right-wing nationalists.

    Not according to Karlin. Do any of you loyal Karlinites even read what he posts here? Recently, while lamenting the fates of Russian nationalists like Dmitry Bobrov and Konstantyn Krylov, he was inspired to put down his 7 rules of fighting the ‘kafkayesque’ Russian hate laws. Number 3 was the clincher for me: ‘Don’t be an Oppositionist’. But what can you expect when the man running the show is an ‘authoritarian figure’ I say…http://www.unz.com/akarlin/country-282/

    Read More
    • Replies: @Onanymous

    Not according to Karlin.
     
    The best way to promote something is to ban it. Forbidden fruit is sweetest.

    Do any of you loyal Karlinites even read what he posts here?
     
    Far from being a “loyal Karlinite”, I read most of his articles here.

    Number 3 was the clincher for me: ‘Don’t be an Oppositionist’.
     
    Too bad you have not read that piece down to the number 7: ‘Don’t listen to all this advice’.
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  34. Mr. Hack says:
    @Pavlo
    Ok. So you're not a Ukrainian nationalist - presumably then you defend this ludicrous abomination of a country only for money. If that's the case, work a bit harder for your bread - don't use arguments that make you sound like both a moron and a schizoid.

    I defend the idea of a free and independent Ukraine, as I would any other country that aspires to such ideals. Why can’t Russia just learn to accept Ukraine, as has been lamented by so many others, as the Swedes have learned to accept the Norwegians, or the Danes have learned to accept the Swedes? Czechs and Slovaks, English and Irish, finally? Why must Ukraine need to disappear within the ‘protective’arms of an imperial Russia?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Pavlo
    So which army unit did you defend it in? Probably not the 25th Airmobile, so were you in Azov? Donbass? Aidar? Kryvbass? Tornado?
    , @melanf

    I defend the idea of a free and independent Ukraine, as I would any other country that aspires to such ideals.
     
    So you defend rights of free and independent Crimea?
    , @neutral

    Why must Ukraine need to disappear
     
    You do know that joining the US gang of puppets that Ukraine will disappear faster than anything that Russia could ever muster? I am talking about having to accept mass immigration from non white lands, giving up sovereignty to faceless bureaucrats in Brussels and crusading SJWs in Silicon Valley, and mass propaganda of racial equality and LGBTXYZETC. Ukraine will not exist in 50 years time in any meaningful sense, and this was for what exactly again, a "better trade deal", oh wait "for freedom" (as if the increasingly post Western hardening liberal totalitarianism is freedom).
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  35. @neutral
    My thoughts on Xi Jinping are that he is way tougher than they keep on trying to portray Putin as. Look how he dealt with the liberals in Hong Kong, now look at how Putin deals with the liberals he lets them say and do what they want, in China they tolerate no such person trying to overthrow the regime. I suppose Xi has the benefit of being non white, it does grant him certain immunity from criticism (plus the fact that Hollywood is pushing big into the Chinese market).

    Apparently nobody is interested in Xi Jinping Thought, except me and neutral. :(

    Read More
    • Replies: @5371
    I am. It is very interesting that he will now break established norms in one of two ways - either serving a third term as CPC when over the retirement age (and as president of China too, despite the constitution?), or being succeeded by someone in no way designated as such in advance.
    , @Greasy William
    I guess I just don't see it as an issue that effects us. I'm not Chinese and I see it as an entirely internal Chinese matter.

    China's own 90's Japan style financial crisis is coming soon, probably in the next 2 years but definitely in the next 5. The Chinese government will respond appropriately however with immediate and massive government spending which will prevent any significant decline in GDP. Also, unlike Japan China can export raw materials for cash, and I believe that China doesn't import as high a percentage of their calories as Japan does and certainly China is more energy independent than Japan.

    The question is, can the Communist Party stay in power without the 7 to 9 percent annual growth that China has had for the last 20 years? Perhaps the party will make some cosmetic reforms like dumping Xi Jinping, maybe even scapegoat him for the crisis, to hold on to power.
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  36. Pavlo says:
    @Mr. Hack
    I defend the idea of a free and independent Ukraine, as I would any other country that aspires to such ideals. Why can't Russia just learn to accept Ukraine, as has been lamented by so many others, as the Swedes have learned to accept the Norwegians, or the Danes have learned to accept the Swedes? Czechs and Slovaks, English and Irish, finally? Why must Ukraine need to disappear within the 'protective'arms of an imperial Russia?

    So which army unit did you defend it in? Probably not the 25th Airmobile, so were you in Azov? Donbass? Aidar? Kryvbass? Tornado?

    Read More
    • Replies: @AP
    So in which anti-Kiev militia did you serve?
    , @Mr. Hack
    I'll be glad to inform you which patriotic Ukrainian fighting corp I belong to, once you identify your own allegiance:

    1) neanderthalic Homo Sovieticus

    2) pseudo Russian Commie

    3) pure everyday, garden variety sovok

    4) mentally challenged vatnik

    5) giddy Kremlin Stooge

    My guess is that you're some type of conglomeration of each?...
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  37. Alfred says:
    @Mr. Hack
    Putin made a big mistake in trying to prop up Yanukovich to the very bitter end. The Russia card in Ukraine would have remained strong to this very day, had Putin (Putler?) not gone off the deep end and overreacted like he did. What chances are there now that Ukraine will cozily slip back into Russia's orbit? Even if it were somehow to do so, its loyalties to Russia would now always be marked with suspicion, if not outright distrust. Say Russia would not have tried to interfere after the Maidan as much in Ukraine's internal affairs as it did, don't you think that it would have a much more credible and important voice in Ukraine's internal affairs today? Yanukovich was really never very loyal to Putin in the first place, and because of Putin's subsequent miscalculations, it seems that Russia has lost Ukraine's willing participation in its geo-political designs. Big mistakes that will negatively impinge upon Ukraine/Russia relation for a long time to come.

    Ukraine is going back into Russia’s orbit. It is inevitable. What happened in Kiev was a putsch. Everyone outside the USA knows that.

    Read More
    • Replies: @AP
    You mean - everyone ignorant about Eastern Europe but who reads a lot of Russian media and believes its all true "knows" this.
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  38. 5371 says:
    @reiner Tor
    Apparently nobody is interested in Xi Jinping Thought, except me and neutral. :(

    I am. It is very interesting that he will now break established norms in one of two ways – either serving a third term as CPC when over the retirement age (and as president of China too, despite the constitution?), or being succeeded by someone in no way designated as such in advance.

    Read More
    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    Besides, no other Chinese leader put his own teachings into the constitution as such. Theoretically, even if he were succeeded by someone (almost sure to be a lightweight), his thought being enshrined in the constitution, he would still be an extremely influential person, whose words would carry the weight of law.
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  39. Anon says: • Disclaimer
    @Pavlo
    Hack is a mental defective - all Ukrainian nationalists are.

    Don't waste words. If you want to help, FedEx him his very own tard helmet.

    Hack is a mental defective – all Ukrainian nationalists are.

    Not all, but Hack is a hack.

    Read More
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  40. @reiner Tor
    Apparently nobody is interested in Xi Jinping Thought, except me and neutral. :(

    I guess I just don’t see it as an issue that effects us. I’m not Chinese and I see it as an entirely internal Chinese matter.

    China’s own 90′s Japan style financial crisis is coming soon, probably in the next 2 years but definitely in the next 5. The Chinese government will respond appropriately however with immediate and massive government spending which will prevent any significant decline in GDP. Also, unlike Japan China can export raw materials for cash, and I believe that China doesn’t import as high a percentage of their calories as Japan does and certainly China is more energy independent than Japan.

    The question is, can the Communist Party stay in power without the 7 to 9 percent annual growth that China has had for the last 20 years? Perhaps the party will make some cosmetic reforms like dumping Xi Jinping, maybe even scapegoat him for the crisis, to hold on to power.

    Read More
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  41. p.s.: to avoid a reprise of the China fight I had with some on this board a few months back, I am not predicting a Chinese collapse. China will be fine. I’m just predicting the Japanification of their economy.

    Sweden, Canada, France and Australia will be following them shortly, actually all 4 will probably have their own crisis’ even before China has theirs, so China is in good company. The US will have another financial crisis in the mid 2020′s, but unlike in 2008, this time there will be no recovery.

    Read More
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  42. @5371
    I am. It is very interesting that he will now break established norms in one of two ways - either serving a third term as CPC when over the retirement age (and as president of China too, despite the constitution?), or being succeeded by someone in no way designated as such in advance.

    Besides, no other Chinese leader put his own teachings into the constitution as such. Theoretically, even if he were succeeded by someone (almost sure to be a lightweight), his thought being enshrined in the constitution, he would still be an extremely influential person, whose words would carry the weight of law.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
    From the discussions I have read about it, it isn't that unprecedented.

    What I gathered. First, the changes are being put into the CCP Constitution, not the Chinese one (two different things). Second, Xi Jinping is far from the first to be mentioned in it, it seems in fact to be standard practice.

    This guy sounds like he knows that he's talking about:

    Adding the leader's name to CCP Party Constitution is seen as norm after Deng's name was added by the 15th National Party Congress. In fact, if wikipedia is dependable, it listed the history of the changes to Party Constitution
    The 12th NPC (1982) - Deng era - Abolish cult of personality
    The 13th NPC (1987) - Zhao era - Three Steps
    The 14th NPC (1992) - Jiang era - Socialism with Chinese Characteristics
    The 15th NPC (1997) - Jiang era - Deng Xiaoping Theory
    The 16th NPC (2002) - Jiang era - Jiang's "Three Represents" Theory
    The 17th NPC (2007) - Hu era - Hu's "Scientific Development" Theory
    The 18th NPC (2012) - Hu era - added environmental protection etc
    The 19th NPC (2017) - Xi era - Xi's "New Era" text (I won't call it a theory)
    Among all these the special one is Jiang, who was in leadership position for three meetings (due to the removal of Zhao in 1989, Jiang was in the position for 13 years, longer than normal). I don't think what Xi does is anything out of the norm. In fact, the text added was very careful not to raise Xi's contribution to a "theory" and keep the content shorter than previous leaders. If you can read tea leaves maybe it means something to you.
    EDIT2: I don't know much beyond the surface. This text is boring and meaningless to everyday people, as a result nobody is reading it unless you want to research CCP. It was meant to educate and lead CCP members only. For people interested in Xi's "New Era", it contains the following development goals:
    Chinese Dream (for regular people) and rejuvenation of Chinese culture
    "Socialist core value", contains national, social, and personal level text
    "Four Comprehensive Development": 2020 economy goal, further reform, rule of law, anti-corruption
     
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  43. Onanymous says:
    @Mr. Hack
    Not according to Karlin. Do any of you loyal Karlinites even read what he posts here? Recently, while lamenting the fates of Russian nationalists like Dmitry Bobrov and Konstantyn Krylov, he was inspired to put down his 7 rules of fighting the 'kafkayesque' Russian hate laws. Number 3 was the clincher for me: 'Don't be an Oppositionist'. But what can you expect when the man running the show is an 'authoritarian figure' I say...http://www.unz.com/akarlin/country-282/

    Not according to Karlin.

    The best way to promote something is to ban it. Forbidden fruit is sweetest.

    Do any of you loyal Karlinites even read what he posts here?

    Far from being a “loyal Karlinite”, I read most of his articles here.

    Number 3 was the clincher for me: ‘Don’t be an Oppositionist’.

    Too bad you have not read that piece down to the number 7: ‘Don’t listen to all this advice’.

    Read More
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  44. Onanymous says:

    The question is, can the Communist Party stay in power without the 7 to 9 percent annual growth that China has had for the last 20 years?

    China will have a great chance to colonize Western Europe and (post-Trump) America. China could spark a Syria-like “civil war”, perhaps using unrest in Xinjiang and Tibet, which will generate a massive stream of refugees. And the West will gladly accept them.

    Read More
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  45. @reiner Tor
    Besides, no other Chinese leader put his own teachings into the constitution as such. Theoretically, even if he were succeeded by someone (almost sure to be a lightweight), his thought being enshrined in the constitution, he would still be an extremely influential person, whose words would carry the weight of law.

    From the discussions I have read about it, it isn’t that unprecedented.

    What I gathered. First, the changes are being put into the CCP Constitution, not the Chinese one (two different things). Second, Xi Jinping is far from the first to be mentioned in it, it seems in fact to be standard practice.

    This guy sounds like he knows that he’s talking about:

    Adding the leader’s name to CCP Party Constitution is seen as norm after Deng’s name was added by the 15th National Party Congress. In fact, if wikipedia is dependable, it listed the history of the changes to Party Constitution
    The 12th NPC (1982) – Deng era – Abolish cult of personality
    The 13th NPC (1987) – Zhao era – Three Steps
    The 14th NPC (1992) – Jiang era – Socialism with Chinese Characteristics
    The 15th NPC (1997) – Jiang era – Deng Xiaoping Theory
    The 16th NPC (2002) – Jiang era – Jiang’s “Three Represents” Theory
    The 17th NPC (2007) – Hu era – Hu’s “Scientific Development” Theory
    The 18th NPC (2012) – Hu era – added environmental protection etc
    The 19th NPC (2017) – Xi era – Xi’s “New Era” text (I won’t call it a theory)
    Among all these the special one is Jiang, who was in leadership position for three meetings (due to the removal of Zhao in 1989, Jiang was in the position for 13 years, longer than normal). I don’t think what Xi does is anything out of the norm. In fact, the text added was very careful not to raise Xi’s contribution to a “theory” and keep the content shorter than previous leaders. If you can read tea leaves maybe it means something to you.
    EDIT2: I don’t know much beyond the surface. This text is boring and meaningless to everyday people, as a result nobody is reading it unless you want to research CCP. It was meant to educate and lead CCP members only. For people interested in Xi’s “New Era”, it contains the following development goals:
    Chinese Dream (for regular people) and rejuvenation of Chinese culture
    “Socialist core value”, contains national, social, and personal level text
    “Four Comprehensive Development”: 2020 economy goal, further reform, rule of law, anti-corruption

    Read More
    • Replies: @reiner Tor

    the changes are being put into the CCP Constitution, not the Chinese one
     
    Is it that important? China is a one party state, where the CCP dominates the state. It's enough to dominate the party to dominate the country.

    It's not entirely clear what happened, because this sentence:

    This is really not new, other than adding his name in there.
     
    contradicts this one:

    Adding the leader's name to CCP Party Constitution is seen as norm after Deng's name was added by the 15th National Party Congress
     
    Did they always add the name, or is it just now? Are the Western reports about how he's raised to the level of Mao Zedong total bull, or is there some truth to it?

    In any event, at least one strange thing happened - no obvious successor was promoted. So while we don't know yet if Xi is going to stay on longer than usual, it seems likely that he's going to have a bit more power during his second term than is usual. In other words, at least there was something to the earlier rumors that Xi was the most powerful Chinese leader since Deng, or possibly since Mao.
    , @5371
    That guy is wrong, Thought (Xi now has his own) is even bigger than Theory. Mao has Thought, Deng only Theory.
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  46. melanf says:
    @Mr. Hack
    I defend the idea of a free and independent Ukraine, as I would any other country that aspires to such ideals. Why can't Russia just learn to accept Ukraine, as has been lamented by so many others, as the Swedes have learned to accept the Norwegians, or the Danes have learned to accept the Swedes? Czechs and Slovaks, English and Irish, finally? Why must Ukraine need to disappear within the 'protective'arms of an imperial Russia?

    I defend the idea of a free and independent Ukraine, as I would any other country that aspires to such ideals.

    So you defend rights of free and independent Crimea?

    Read More
    • Replies: @AP
    Because a place whose Russian majority is only 70 years old and is due to the mass deportation of the actual natives, is equivalent to a place whose majority population actually consists of the indigenous inhabitants.

    That being said:

    1. Had things been done normally (Crimeans actually elect a pro-Russian annexation party, they run a free and fair referendum with international observers - real ones, not a motley collection of Nazis and Stalinists) the results should have been accepted.

    2. Ukraine is better off without Crimea and without the Russian parts of Donbas. It is more cohesive.

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  47. neutral says:
    @Mr. Hack
    I defend the idea of a free and independent Ukraine, as I would any other country that aspires to such ideals. Why can't Russia just learn to accept Ukraine, as has been lamented by so many others, as the Swedes have learned to accept the Norwegians, or the Danes have learned to accept the Swedes? Czechs and Slovaks, English and Irish, finally? Why must Ukraine need to disappear within the 'protective'arms of an imperial Russia?

    Why must Ukraine need to disappear

    You do know that joining the US gang of puppets that Ukraine will disappear faster than anything that Russia could ever muster? I am talking about having to accept mass immigration from non white lands, giving up sovereignty to faceless bureaucrats in Brussels and crusading SJWs in Silicon Valley, and mass propaganda of racial equality and LGBTXYZETC. Ukraine will not exist in 50 years time in any meaningful sense, and this was for what exactly again, a “better trade deal”, oh wait “for freedom” (as if the increasingly post Western hardening liberal totalitarianism is freedom).

    Read More
    • Replies: @AP

    joining the US gang of puppets that Ukraine will disappear faster than anything that Russia could ever muster? I am talking about having to accept mass immigration from non white lands, giving up sovereignty to faceless bureaucrats in Brussels and crusading SJWs in Silicon Valley, and mass propaganda of racial equality and LGBTXYZETC.
     
    Is this what happened to Poland and Hungary when they joined the Western orbit?

    This kind of scaremongering maybe would have reflected some real risks 20 years ago. Now it either reflects ignorance about central and Eastern Europe (completely understandable, for someone in the West) or is an example of arguing in bad faith.

    I'll assume the best and that your comment falls into the first category. Did you know that Russia has the highest % of Muslims of any European country (essentially, tied with France), making it much more Islamic than the EU as a whole? Did you know that Russia is part of a Customs Union that includes a couple Muslim countries? Do you think, given hundreds of years of history, that giving up sovereignty to bureaucrats in Moscow will result in more autonomy than doing so to ones in Brussels (first time this was attempted there was expansion of serfdom and total elimination of local autonomy, second time this was attempted there was mass starvation resulting in millions of lost lives)? Did you know, as AK has pointed out, that SJW activism is now underway in Russia too?
    , @Mr. Hack

    You do know that joining the US gang of puppets that Ukraine will disappear faster than anything that Russia could ever muster?
     
    Ukraine has now been around for 26 years, and will not soon disappear - the Ukrainian people have shown that they're resilient and will not cower in front of a Russian aggressor. The sooner that Russia learns to respect its neighbor to the south, the sooner both countries will begin to prosper.
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  48. @Anatoly Karlin
    From the discussions I have read about it, it isn't that unprecedented.

    What I gathered. First, the changes are being put into the CCP Constitution, not the Chinese one (two different things). Second, Xi Jinping is far from the first to be mentioned in it, it seems in fact to be standard practice.

    This guy sounds like he knows that he's talking about:

    Adding the leader's name to CCP Party Constitution is seen as norm after Deng's name was added by the 15th National Party Congress. In fact, if wikipedia is dependable, it listed the history of the changes to Party Constitution
    The 12th NPC (1982) - Deng era - Abolish cult of personality
    The 13th NPC (1987) - Zhao era - Three Steps
    The 14th NPC (1992) - Jiang era - Socialism with Chinese Characteristics
    The 15th NPC (1997) - Jiang era - Deng Xiaoping Theory
    The 16th NPC (2002) - Jiang era - Jiang's "Three Represents" Theory
    The 17th NPC (2007) - Hu era - Hu's "Scientific Development" Theory
    The 18th NPC (2012) - Hu era - added environmental protection etc
    The 19th NPC (2017) - Xi era - Xi's "New Era" text (I won't call it a theory)
    Among all these the special one is Jiang, who was in leadership position for three meetings (due to the removal of Zhao in 1989, Jiang was in the position for 13 years, longer than normal). I don't think what Xi does is anything out of the norm. In fact, the text added was very careful not to raise Xi's contribution to a "theory" and keep the content shorter than previous leaders. If you can read tea leaves maybe it means something to you.
    EDIT2: I don't know much beyond the surface. This text is boring and meaningless to everyday people, as a result nobody is reading it unless you want to research CCP. It was meant to educate and lead CCP members only. For people interested in Xi's "New Era", it contains the following development goals:
    Chinese Dream (for regular people) and rejuvenation of Chinese culture
    "Socialist core value", contains national, social, and personal level text
    "Four Comprehensive Development": 2020 economy goal, further reform, rule of law, anti-corruption
     

    the changes are being put into the CCP Constitution, not the Chinese one

    Is it that important? China is a one party state, where the CCP dominates the state. It’s enough to dominate the party to dominate the country.

    It’s not entirely clear what happened, because this sentence:

    This is really not new, other than adding his name in there.

    contradicts this one:

    Adding the leader’s name to CCP Party Constitution is seen as norm after Deng’s name was added by the 15th National Party Congress

    Did they always add the name, or is it just now? Are the Western reports about how he’s raised to the level of Mao Zedong total bull, or is there some truth to it?

    In any event, at least one strange thing happened – no obvious successor was promoted. So while we don’t know yet if Xi is going to stay on longer than usual, it seems likely that he’s going to have a bit more power during his second term than is usual. In other words, at least there was something to the earlier rumors that Xi was the most powerful Chinese leader since Deng, or possibly since Mao.

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    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    For example the "Baekdu Bloodline" (the Kim dynasty) is also "only" enshrined in some ideological document of the Korean Workers' Party (and only since 2013), yet it's essentially the constitution of North Korea, so much so, that apparently even the Chinese, when trying to organize a coup against Kim Jong-un, tried to enlist a (half-)brother of Kim to replace him.
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  49. LondonBob says:
    @Verymuchalive
    Anatoly, are you sure? Pavel Felgenhauer's Wiki entry says he's "Russlanddeutsche" ( German Russian). One bracket only ! A descendent of Germans brought into Russia from C18th onwards by Catherine the Great ( just spelling out to the punters who may not know ).
    I used to live over the road from a family of German Russians or is it Russian Germans, can't tell . Granny and Grandad got out of Archangel in 1919. They thought they were bound for Buenos Aires, but ended up in Aberdeen ! They were funny (peculiar) too.

    I met a couple of Crypto-Jews when I lived in Moscow. Being of partial Welsh descent and thus having dark hair and dark eyes I was surprised to find some acquaintances thought I were Jewish. Not a phenomenon I had come across before. My old Russian boss in London was convinced several of the central Asian, Caucasian oligarchs were Crypto-Jews, I expect some are.

    Read More
    • Replies: @The Big Red Scary
    But what’s the point of being a crypto-Jew? Many of the most famous oligarchs, including some close to Putin, are Jewish, and openly fund and support Jewish organizations in Russia. As a scientist, I know plenty of Jews in Moscow, and most of them seem to be quite comfortable with their hybrid identity. Indeed, a number of them spent time in Israel, got fed up with it, and came back home to Russia.
    , @Verymuchalive
    So, Bob, you're not a real Londoner, you're a crypto-Welshman. What are the benefits ? Is there such a thing as Welsh Privilege ?
    Only joking.
    I did have a workmate here in Britain. He was born a Turkish citizen, but was largely of Armenian ancestry. As he himself told me, when in Turkey, he acted as a crypto-Armenian.
    Throughout history, there have been cryptos: and even today.
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  50. @LondonBob
    I met a couple of Crypto-Jews when I lived in Moscow. Being of partial Welsh descent and thus having dark hair and dark eyes I was surprised to find some acquaintances thought I were Jewish. Not a phenomenon I had come across before. My old Russian boss in London was convinced several of the central Asian, Caucasian oligarchs were Crypto-Jews, I expect some are.

    But what’s the point of being a crypto-Jew? Many of the most famous oligarchs, including some close to Putin, are Jewish, and openly fund and support Jewish organizations in Russia. As a scientist, I know plenty of Jews in Moscow, and most of them seem to be quite comfortable with their hybrid identity. Indeed, a number of them spent time in Israel, got fed up with it, and came back home to Russia.

    Read More
    • Replies: @LondonBob
    I didn't ask but the usual reasons crypsis has been practised would be my guess, to fit in and keep a low profile.
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  51. @reiner Tor

    the changes are being put into the CCP Constitution, not the Chinese one
     
    Is it that important? China is a one party state, where the CCP dominates the state. It's enough to dominate the party to dominate the country.

    It's not entirely clear what happened, because this sentence:

    This is really not new, other than adding his name in there.
     
    contradicts this one:

    Adding the leader's name to CCP Party Constitution is seen as norm after Deng's name was added by the 15th National Party Congress
     
    Did they always add the name, or is it just now? Are the Western reports about how he's raised to the level of Mao Zedong total bull, or is there some truth to it?

    In any event, at least one strange thing happened - no obvious successor was promoted. So while we don't know yet if Xi is going to stay on longer than usual, it seems likely that he's going to have a bit more power during his second term than is usual. In other words, at least there was something to the earlier rumors that Xi was the most powerful Chinese leader since Deng, or possibly since Mao.

    For example the “Baekdu Bloodline” (the Kim dynasty) is also “only” enshrined in some ideological document of the Korean Workers’ Party (and only since 2013), yet it’s essentially the constitution of North Korea, so much so, that apparently even the Chinese, when trying to organize a coup against Kim Jong-un, tried to enlist a (half-)brother of Kim to replace him.

    Read More
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  52. AP says:
    @neutral

    Why must Ukraine need to disappear
     
    You do know that joining the US gang of puppets that Ukraine will disappear faster than anything that Russia could ever muster? I am talking about having to accept mass immigration from non white lands, giving up sovereignty to faceless bureaucrats in Brussels and crusading SJWs in Silicon Valley, and mass propaganda of racial equality and LGBTXYZETC. Ukraine will not exist in 50 years time in any meaningful sense, and this was for what exactly again, a "better trade deal", oh wait "for freedom" (as if the increasingly post Western hardening liberal totalitarianism is freedom).

    joining the US gang of puppets that Ukraine will disappear faster than anything that Russia could ever muster? I am talking about having to accept mass immigration from non white lands, giving up sovereignty to faceless bureaucrats in Brussels and crusading SJWs in Silicon Valley, and mass propaganda of racial equality and LGBTXYZETC.

    Is this what happened to Poland and Hungary when they joined the Western orbit?

    This kind of scaremongering maybe would have reflected some real risks 20 years ago. Now it either reflects ignorance about central and Eastern Europe (completely understandable, for someone in the West) or is an example of arguing in bad faith.

    I’ll assume the best and that your comment falls into the first category. Did you know that Russia has the highest % of Muslims of any European country (essentially, tied with France), making it much more Islamic than the EU as a whole? Did you know that Russia is part of a Customs Union that includes a couple Muslim countries? Do you think, given hundreds of years of history, that giving up sovereignty to bureaucrats in Moscow will result in more autonomy than doing so to ones in Brussels (first time this was attempted there was expansion of serfdom and total elimination of local autonomy, second time this was attempted there was mass starvation resulting in millions of lost lives)? Did you know, as AK has pointed out, that SJW activism is now underway in Russia too?

    Read More
    • Replies: @5371
    [This kind of scaremongering maybe would have reflected some real risks 20 years ago. Now it either reflects ignorance about central and Eastern Europe (completely understandable, for someone in the West) or is an example of arguing in bad faith.]

    The above paragraph is the polar opposite of the truth. 20 years ag0 it would have sounded like wild scaremongering to suggest that Brussels would ever seek to impose state-sponsored homosexuality, 150 genders and countless millions of muzzers and blax on Poland. Now it is sober contemporary fact.

    [Did you know, as AK has pointed out, that SJW activism is now underway in Russia too?]

    You see, AK, why it is a mistake to meme things like this? Shameless khokhol propagandists (but I repeat myself) take the joke seriously and run with it.
    , @reiner Tor

    Is this what happened to Poland and Hungary when they joined the Western orbit?
     
    At least in the case of Hungary, the poz is growing. I cannot say with any level of confidence if it would be different in Moscow's orbit, but from Slovakia's and Serbia's examples (both of which had populations favorably predisposed to a Russian alliance - quite unlike the Hungarian population) it looks that in retrospect it would've been more or less impossible to stay there anyway.
    , @neutral
    You clearly have failed to read the news that both Poland and Hungary have been forced to accept the mandatory "refugee" (i.e. non white) resettlement quotas, despite all their protestations.

    You also mistake me for some kind of Russian nationalist, I am not, I live far away in South Africa, my first concern is for general white nationalism (for that is all I can practically support). I am aware of Muslims from Central Asia being a problem in Russia, but the mass sub Saharan African influx into Europe (Poland, Hungary, Ukraine are not immune if they remain US satraps) is orders of magnitudes a far greater problem. I do find this constant Russia vs Ukrainian bickering as petty at best, but what Ukraine did was jumping from the frying pan into the hottest part of hell, so I am going point out Ukraine as being the biggest sinner here.

    , @The Big Red Scary
    About Poland, Hungary, and similar countries (including perhaps Ukraine): if they had sufficient political will, they should be able to coordinate their policies with respect to the EU and extract necessary concessions. As for security concerns, I think a neo-Warsaw pact, consisting of the old Warsaw pact minus Russia, would be a far more stable alternative than joining NATO and poking the Russian bear. So far as I can tell, the new US missiles in Poland and Romania are a genuine problem, because in case of an apparent missile attack on Russia, the Russian government now has half the time that it used to in order to decide whether the attack is real or a false alarm. If stories of the Cold War are to believed, human civilization came come close to annihilation a few times because of false alarms.

    As for a neo-Warsaw pact, all you really have to do is have a binding treaty and coordinate sufficiently scary deterrents to outside aggression, while at the same time avoiding unnecessary provocation. Most of defense is about signaling. And with modern military technology, this has become cheaper, especially if a group of middle income countries were to share the costs.

    As for the Muslims in Russia, there are lots of them already here, but many of them are very rooted, unlike those in Western Europe, and that makes a difference. It's mostly the Caucasian Muslims that cause problems, but they make up a minority of all Muslims in Russia, I think. However, bringing in new Muslims is a bad idea. Everyone here is agreed about that.
    , @Gerard2

    Is this what happened to Poland and Hungary when they joined the Western orbit?
     
    hahaha! That's because Poland is an emigrant emitting failed country- not an immigrant attracting successful one like Germany, you dumb prick.

    AK: As long as you continue using gratuitous insults that only detract from your argument so far as normal observers are concerned I will continue to truncate your comments with MORE tags. (Ergo for AP should he respond in kind).



    Hungary is a wonderful successful country, that doesn't export all its murderer,scumbag, rapists and thief's as "catholic " Poland does....Hungary has had pretty much the same size population for 60 years. Hungary isn't a border country and is surrounded by the wealthier Austria and Germany- so it has no demand for migrants for internal economic reasons ...and is a relatively unknown country for potential migrants (who have more attractive countries next to it like Germany and Austria that they would prefer to go to)


    Ukraine, as the name suggests, is a borderland ( so can have the problems that Greece and Italy have had that Hungary would never have you idiot) with a black sea coast, is a wasteland now that has just lost 1/5th of it's population in 3 years...and is an ideal place for the EU to export all it's problems like migrants to....most importantly it can make Ukraine take on migrants as a precondition for their non-existent ascension into the EU you retard.

    Did you know that Russia has the highest % of Muslims of any European country

     

    So Russia with 10% Muslims can still remain Russia, but pseudo-Catholic Poland spectacularly implodes (again) if it becomes even 0.5% Muslim........that's an insecure and weak country,

    Did you know that Russia has the highest % of Muslims of any European country

     

    errr....with most of them highly russified in terms of speaking the language fluently, a higher percentage of intermarriages with slavs ( even many kavkaz terrorists were married to slavs) than in any European country, they are also involved with Russia for 100's of years.........the immigration the poster was commentating on has no connection to that particular European country. So as usual you can up with a timewasting retarded non-argument to deflect the discussion...because you are a POS vermin with obvious mental problems.

    (first time this was attempted there was expansion of serfdom and total elimination of local autonomy, second time this was attempted there was mass starvation resulting in millions of lost lives)?
     
    hahaha! Again the POS attention-whore comes out with lies and further drivel. Complete BS from start-tofinish, The "second time" there was actually mass starvation 10-11 years before.....the American yellow press then used pictures from this period but claimed they were from the 30's. Of course Stalin successfully did his work....there has been no famine in "Ukraine" ever since....the only people actually propagated this crap were dickheads who lived in areas unaffected by the famine that were not even part of Ukraine....them and fuckedup spambot retards who are son of Nazi-Bandera rapist scumbags who escaped to Canada and USA during or after the war.
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  53. AP says:
    @melanf

    I defend the idea of a free and independent Ukraine, as I would any other country that aspires to such ideals.
     
    So you defend rights of free and independent Crimea?

    Because a place whose Russian majority is only 70 years old and is due to the mass deportation of the actual natives, is equivalent to a place whose majority population actually consists of the indigenous inhabitants.

    That being said:

    1. Had things been done normally (Crimeans actually elect a pro-Russian annexation party, they run a free and fair referendum with international observers – real ones, not a motley collection of Nazis and Stalinists) the results should have been accepted.

    2. Ukraine is better off without Crimea and without the Russian parts of Donbas. It is more cohesive.

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    • Replies: @melanf

    Because a place whose Russian majority is only 70 years old
     
    At least a hundred years. The Population Of Crimea:
    1917 — 749 800 people (41.2% Russian, 28.7 % of the Crimean Tatars, and 8.6 % Ukrainians, 6.4 % Jews, 4.9 % Germans, 2.9 % of Greeks, 1.6% of Armenians, Bulgarians 1.4%, 0.8% poles, 0.7 % of Turks)

    1920 — 718 900 (44,1 % Russians, 26 % of the Crimean Tatars, 7,4 % of Ukrainians, 6,7 % of the Jews, 5,9% Germans, 3.3 percent Greeks, and 1.7 % Armenian, 1.5% of Bulgarians, 0.8% China, 0.8% poles)

    1939 — 1 123 800 people (49,6 % Russian, 19.4% of the Crimean Tatars, 13.7% of Ukrainians, 5.8 % of the Jews, 4.5% of Germans, 1.8% of Greeks, Bulgarians 1.4%, 1.1% Armenian, 0.5% of poles)

    Russian majority is only 70 years old and is due to the mass deportation
     
    Lol no

    of the actual natives
     
    Russians (and Ukrainians) are the same the natives of the Crimea as Crimean Tatars.

    Had things been done normally (Crimeans actually elect a pro-Russian annexation party, they run a free and fair referendum with international observers – real ones, not a motley collection of Nazis and Stalinists) the results should have been accepted.
     
    Ha ha ha. No doubt the Crimeans are actually elected Pro-Russian government, they conduct a free and fair referendum. International observers were invited but refused to come - and that's their problem
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  54. 5371 says:
    @Anatoly Karlin
    From the discussions I have read about it, it isn't that unprecedented.

    What I gathered. First, the changes are being put into the CCP Constitution, not the Chinese one (two different things). Second, Xi Jinping is far from the first to be mentioned in it, it seems in fact to be standard practice.

    This guy sounds like he knows that he's talking about:

    Adding the leader's name to CCP Party Constitution is seen as norm after Deng's name was added by the 15th National Party Congress. In fact, if wikipedia is dependable, it listed the history of the changes to Party Constitution
    The 12th NPC (1982) - Deng era - Abolish cult of personality
    The 13th NPC (1987) - Zhao era - Three Steps
    The 14th NPC (1992) - Jiang era - Socialism with Chinese Characteristics
    The 15th NPC (1997) - Jiang era - Deng Xiaoping Theory
    The 16th NPC (2002) - Jiang era - Jiang's "Three Represents" Theory
    The 17th NPC (2007) - Hu era - Hu's "Scientific Development" Theory
    The 18th NPC (2012) - Hu era - added environmental protection etc
    The 19th NPC (2017) - Xi era - Xi's "New Era" text (I won't call it a theory)
    Among all these the special one is Jiang, who was in leadership position for three meetings (due to the removal of Zhao in 1989, Jiang was in the position for 13 years, longer than normal). I don't think what Xi does is anything out of the norm. In fact, the text added was very careful not to raise Xi's contribution to a "theory" and keep the content shorter than previous leaders. If you can read tea leaves maybe it means something to you.
    EDIT2: I don't know much beyond the surface. This text is boring and meaningless to everyday people, as a result nobody is reading it unless you want to research CCP. It was meant to educate and lead CCP members only. For people interested in Xi's "New Era", it contains the following development goals:
    Chinese Dream (for regular people) and rejuvenation of Chinese culture
    "Socialist core value", contains national, social, and personal level text
    "Four Comprehensive Development": 2020 economy goal, further reform, rule of law, anti-corruption
     

    That guy is wrong, Thought (Xi now has his own) is even bigger than Theory. Mao has Thought, Deng only Theory.

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  55. AP says:
    @Alfred
    Ukraine is going back into Russia's orbit. It is inevitable. What happened in Kiev was a putsch. Everyone outside the USA knows that.

    You mean – everyone ignorant about Eastern Europe but who reads a lot of Russian media and believes its all true “knows” this.

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  56. AP says:
    @Pavlo
    So which army unit did you defend it in? Probably not the 25th Airmobile, so were you in Azov? Donbass? Aidar? Kryvbass? Tornado?

    So in which anti-Kiev militia did you serve?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Pavlo
    Whataboutism, is it? For shame Orc, for shame. I'll assume you never served either.
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  57. 5371 says:
    @AP

    joining the US gang of puppets that Ukraine will disappear faster than anything that Russia could ever muster? I am talking about having to accept mass immigration from non white lands, giving up sovereignty to faceless bureaucrats in Brussels and crusading SJWs in Silicon Valley, and mass propaganda of racial equality and LGBTXYZETC.
     
    Is this what happened to Poland and Hungary when they joined the Western orbit?

    This kind of scaremongering maybe would have reflected some real risks 20 years ago. Now it either reflects ignorance about central and Eastern Europe (completely understandable, for someone in the West) or is an example of arguing in bad faith.

    I'll assume the best and that your comment falls into the first category. Did you know that Russia has the highest % of Muslims of any European country (essentially, tied with France), making it much more Islamic than the EU as a whole? Did you know that Russia is part of a Customs Union that includes a couple Muslim countries? Do you think, given hundreds of years of history, that giving up sovereignty to bureaucrats in Moscow will result in more autonomy than doing so to ones in Brussels (first time this was attempted there was expansion of serfdom and total elimination of local autonomy, second time this was attempted there was mass starvation resulting in millions of lost lives)? Did you know, as AK has pointed out, that SJW activism is now underway in Russia too?

    [This kind of scaremongering maybe would have reflected some real risks 20 years ago. Now it either reflects ignorance about central and Eastern Europe (completely understandable, for someone in the West) or is an example of arguing in bad faith.]

    The above paragraph is the polar opposite of the truth. 20 years ag0 it would have sounded like wild scaremongering to suggest that Brussels would ever seek to impose state-sponsored homosexuality, 150 genders and countless millions of muzzers and blax on Poland. Now it is sober contemporary fact.

    [Did you know, as AK has pointed out, that SJW activism is now underway in Russia too?]

    You see, AK, why it is a mistake to meme things like this? Shameless khokhol propagandists (but I repeat myself) take the joke seriously and run with it.

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    • Replies: @AP

    20 years ag0 it would have sounded like wild scaremongering to suggest that Brussels would ever seek to impose state-sponsored homosexuality, 150 genders and countless millions of muzzers and blax on Poland. Now it is sober contemporary fact.
     
    There wasn't mass immigration of non-Europeans to Europe 20 years ago? I remember Versailles being closed due to having to clean up Algerian vandalism back in the early 90s.

    Here is immigration to France:

    http://focus-migration.hwwi.de/typo3_upload/groups/3/focus_Migration_Publikationen/Laenderprofile/bilder/Country-profiles/cp-2/grafik2-gr.gif

    20 years ago one could have legitimately assumed that the EU was centralizing - the single currency was coming, perhaps the Euro parliament would have real teeth, etc. One could have reasonably claimed that Poland was going to lose its sovereignty and would have to do everything Brussels wanted.

    That's not a realistic fear anymore.
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  58. @AP

    joining the US gang of puppets that Ukraine will disappear faster than anything that Russia could ever muster? I am talking about having to accept mass immigration from non white lands, giving up sovereignty to faceless bureaucrats in Brussels and crusading SJWs in Silicon Valley, and mass propaganda of racial equality and LGBTXYZETC.
     
    Is this what happened to Poland and Hungary when they joined the Western orbit?

    This kind of scaremongering maybe would have reflected some real risks 20 years ago. Now it either reflects ignorance about central and Eastern Europe (completely understandable, for someone in the West) or is an example of arguing in bad faith.

    I'll assume the best and that your comment falls into the first category. Did you know that Russia has the highest % of Muslims of any European country (essentially, tied with France), making it much more Islamic than the EU as a whole? Did you know that Russia is part of a Customs Union that includes a couple Muslim countries? Do you think, given hundreds of years of history, that giving up sovereignty to bureaucrats in Moscow will result in more autonomy than doing so to ones in Brussels (first time this was attempted there was expansion of serfdom and total elimination of local autonomy, second time this was attempted there was mass starvation resulting in millions of lost lives)? Did you know, as AK has pointed out, that SJW activism is now underway in Russia too?

    Is this what happened to Poland and Hungary when they joined the Western orbit?

    At least in the case of Hungary, the poz is growing. I cannot say with any level of confidence if it would be different in Moscow’s orbit, but from Slovakia’s and Serbia’s examples (both of which had populations favorably predisposed to a Russian alliance – quite unlike the Hungarian population) it looks that in retrospect it would’ve been more or less impossible to stay there anyway.

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    • Replies: @AP

    At least in the case of Hungary, the poz is growing
     
    At a faster rate than in Russia? This certainly isn't reflected in Hungary's electoral politics. Is there a groundswell of support for Muslim immigration in Hungary that we don't know about?
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  59. neutral says:
    @AP

    joining the US gang of puppets that Ukraine will disappear faster than anything that Russia could ever muster? I am talking about having to accept mass immigration from non white lands, giving up sovereignty to faceless bureaucrats in Brussels and crusading SJWs in Silicon Valley, and mass propaganda of racial equality and LGBTXYZETC.
     
    Is this what happened to Poland and Hungary when they joined the Western orbit?

    This kind of scaremongering maybe would have reflected some real risks 20 years ago. Now it either reflects ignorance about central and Eastern Europe (completely understandable, for someone in the West) or is an example of arguing in bad faith.

    I'll assume the best and that your comment falls into the first category. Did you know that Russia has the highest % of Muslims of any European country (essentially, tied with France), making it much more Islamic than the EU as a whole? Did you know that Russia is part of a Customs Union that includes a couple Muslim countries? Do you think, given hundreds of years of history, that giving up sovereignty to bureaucrats in Moscow will result in more autonomy than doing so to ones in Brussels (first time this was attempted there was expansion of serfdom and total elimination of local autonomy, second time this was attempted there was mass starvation resulting in millions of lost lives)? Did you know, as AK has pointed out, that SJW activism is now underway in Russia too?

    You clearly have failed to read the news that both Poland and Hungary have been forced to accept the mandatory “refugee” (i.e. non white) resettlement quotas, despite all their protestations.

    You also mistake me for some kind of Russian nationalist, I am not, I live far away in South Africa, my first concern is for general white nationalism (for that is all I can practically support). I am aware of Muslims from Central Asia being a problem in Russia, but the mass sub Saharan African influx into Europe (Poland, Hungary, Ukraine are not immune if they remain US satraps) is orders of magnitudes a far greater problem. I do find this constant Russia vs Ukrainian bickering as petty at best, but what Ukraine did was jumping from the frying pan into the hottest part of hell, so I am going point out Ukraine as being the biggest sinner here.

    Read More
    • Agree: Seamus Padraig
    • Replies: @AP

    You clearly have failed to read the news that both Poland and Hungary have been forced to accept the mandatory “refugee” (i.e. non white) resettlement quotas, despite all their protestations.
     
    Um, no they haven't. EU told them to take the refugees, they have not complied and said they wouldn't comply. Poland is the least Muslim and least African place in Europe.

    If the countries of central and Europe (including Ukraine) formed an alliance separate from both Russia and its Eurasian Customs Union, and the Western EU, it would be the most European place in the world.

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  60. @AP

    joining the US gang of puppets that Ukraine will disappear faster than anything that Russia could ever muster? I am talking about having to accept mass immigration from non white lands, giving up sovereignty to faceless bureaucrats in Brussels and crusading SJWs in Silicon Valley, and mass propaganda of racial equality and LGBTXYZETC.
     
    Is this what happened to Poland and Hungary when they joined the Western orbit?

    This kind of scaremongering maybe would have reflected some real risks 20 years ago. Now it either reflects ignorance about central and Eastern Europe (completely understandable, for someone in the West) or is an example of arguing in bad faith.

    I'll assume the best and that your comment falls into the first category. Did you know that Russia has the highest % of Muslims of any European country (essentially, tied with France), making it much more Islamic than the EU as a whole? Did you know that Russia is part of a Customs Union that includes a couple Muslim countries? Do you think, given hundreds of years of history, that giving up sovereignty to bureaucrats in Moscow will result in more autonomy than doing so to ones in Brussels (first time this was attempted there was expansion of serfdom and total elimination of local autonomy, second time this was attempted there was mass starvation resulting in millions of lost lives)? Did you know, as AK has pointed out, that SJW activism is now underway in Russia too?

    About Poland, Hungary, and similar countries (including perhaps Ukraine): if they had sufficient political will, they should be able to coordinate their policies with respect to the EU and extract necessary concessions. As for security concerns, I think a neo-Warsaw pact, consisting of the old Warsaw pact minus Russia, would be a far more stable alternative than joining NATO and poking the Russian bear. So far as I can tell, the new US missiles in Poland and Romania are a genuine problem, because in case of an apparent missile attack on Russia, the Russian government now has half the time that it used to in order to decide whether the attack is real or a false alarm. If stories of the Cold War are to believed, human civilization came come close to annihilation a few times because of false alarms.

    As for a neo-Warsaw pact, all you really have to do is have a binding treaty and coordinate sufficiently scary deterrents to outside aggression, while at the same time avoiding unnecessary provocation. Most of defense is about signaling. And with modern military technology, this has become cheaper, especially if a group of middle income countries were to share the costs.

    As for the Muslims in Russia, there are lots of them already here, but many of them are very rooted, unlike those in Western Europe, and that makes a difference. It’s mostly the Caucasian Muslims that cause problems, but they make up a minority of all Muslims in Russia, I think. However, bringing in new Muslims is a bad idea. Everyone here is agreed about that.

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    • Replies: @AP

    About Poland, Hungary, and similar countries (including perhaps Ukraine): if they had sufficient political will, they should be able to coordinate their policies with respect to the EU and extract necessary concessions.
     
    That would, objectively, be the ideal, at least for people who care about European civilization. Not to split them up, half going to the Western EU and half joining Eurasia. The bigger this central European zone, the better.
    , @MarkinPNW
    Well, Polish leader Pilsudski proposed exactly that after WW1, but Poland not having the power of a Russian or British/American Empire, could not obtain or force the co-operation of the other central European states.

    After all, the post WW2 Warsaw Pact and Nato were based in large part on the sponsoring Great Powers making an offer to the lesser powers that they could not refuse. Without a Great Power as a foundation to glue the alliance together, the lesser powers end up fragmenting the alliance out of suspicion and jealousy, or they simply refuse to join, such as what happened to Pilsudski's Intermarium.
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  61. AP says:
    @5371
    [This kind of scaremongering maybe would have reflected some real risks 20 years ago. Now it either reflects ignorance about central and Eastern Europe (completely understandable, for someone in the West) or is an example of arguing in bad faith.]

    The above paragraph is the polar opposite of the truth. 20 years ag0 it would have sounded like wild scaremongering to suggest that Brussels would ever seek to impose state-sponsored homosexuality, 150 genders and countless millions of muzzers and blax on Poland. Now it is sober contemporary fact.

    [Did you know, as AK has pointed out, that SJW activism is now underway in Russia too?]

    You see, AK, why it is a mistake to meme things like this? Shameless khokhol propagandists (but I repeat myself) take the joke seriously and run with it.

    20 years ag0 it would have sounded like wild scaremongering to suggest that Brussels would ever seek to impose state-sponsored homosexuality, 150 genders and countless millions of muzzers and blax on Poland. Now it is sober contemporary fact.

    There wasn’t mass immigration of non-Europeans to Europe 20 years ago? I remember Versailles being closed due to having to clean up Algerian vandalism back in the early 90s.

    Here is immigration to France:

    20 years ago one could have legitimately assumed that the EU was centralizing – the single currency was coming, perhaps the Euro parliament would have real teeth, etc. One could have reasonably claimed that Poland was going to lose its sovereignty and would have to do everything Brussels wanted.

    That’s not a realistic fear anymore.

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  62. AP says:
    @neutral
    You clearly have failed to read the news that both Poland and Hungary have been forced to accept the mandatory "refugee" (i.e. non white) resettlement quotas, despite all their protestations.

    You also mistake me for some kind of Russian nationalist, I am not, I live far away in South Africa, my first concern is for general white nationalism (for that is all I can practically support). I am aware of Muslims from Central Asia being a problem in Russia, but the mass sub Saharan African influx into Europe (Poland, Hungary, Ukraine are not immune if they remain US satraps) is orders of magnitudes a far greater problem. I do find this constant Russia vs Ukrainian bickering as petty at best, but what Ukraine did was jumping from the frying pan into the hottest part of hell, so I am going point out Ukraine as being the biggest sinner here.

    You clearly have failed to read the news that both Poland and Hungary have been forced to accept the mandatory “refugee” (i.e. non white) resettlement quotas, despite all their protestations.

    Um, no they haven’t. EU told them to take the refugees, they have not complied and said they wouldn’t comply. Poland is the least Muslim and least African place in Europe.

    If the countries of central and Europe (including Ukraine) formed an alliance separate from both Russia and its Eurasian Customs Union, and the Western EU, it would be the most European place in the world.

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    • Replies: @RadicalCenter
    And it would be a place I'd be glad to take my family on vacation -- at the very least.
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  63. Mr. Hack says:
    @Pavlo
    So which army unit did you defend it in? Probably not the 25th Airmobile, so were you in Azov? Donbass? Aidar? Kryvbass? Tornado?

    I’ll be glad to inform you which patriotic Ukrainian fighting corp I belong to, once you identify your own allegiance:

    1) neanderthalic Homo Sovieticus

    2) pseudo Russian Commie

    3) pure everyday, garden variety sovok

    4) mentally challenged vatnik

    5) giddy Kremlin Stooge

    My guess is that you’re some type of conglomeration of each?…

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    • Replies: @Pavlo
    So you didn't serve. Well of course you didn't - the Ukrainian will do anything for his dead gay country except fight for it or live in it.
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  64. AP says:
    @reiner Tor

    Is this what happened to Poland and Hungary when they joined the Western orbit?
     
    At least in the case of Hungary, the poz is growing. I cannot say with any level of confidence if it would be different in Moscow's orbit, but from Slovakia's and Serbia's examples (both of which had populations favorably predisposed to a Russian alliance - quite unlike the Hungarian population) it looks that in retrospect it would've been more or less impossible to stay there anyway.

    At least in the case of Hungary, the poz is growing

    At a faster rate than in Russia? This certainly isn’t reflected in Hungary’s electoral politics. Is there a groundswell of support for Muslim immigration in Hungary that we don’t know about?

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    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    Soros’s university has had a gender studies department for a long time. Last year it was opened in a big state university. Leftist voters are getting totally pro-refugee and perceive Orbán as either a Nazi or (more often) as someone who cynically exploits race hatred and openly engages in Nazi propaganda.

    Meanwhile, it turned out that a lot of people on the right are also not totally on board with Orbán’s stance and would like him to tone it down. Not to mention the churches, and the church is even worse in Poland.

    Fidesz is not using intellectual arguments, they engage in lowbrow propaganda (even rightist intellectuals dislike it), which is all okay as long as they win elections and they themselves are opposed to accepting refugees. But Orbán won’t live forever, and it’s not a certainty what his successor will do. I wouldn’t bet my house on it.

    What is sure is that the pressure from the EU will continue, and it will always be easier for Hungarian leaders to just cave in. People don’t quite understand the issue, so don’t think that the resistance to refugees is all bottom up. It’s mostly just because of Orbán.
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  65. AP says:
    @The Big Red Scary
    About Poland, Hungary, and similar countries (including perhaps Ukraine): if they had sufficient political will, they should be able to coordinate their policies with respect to the EU and extract necessary concessions. As for security concerns, I think a neo-Warsaw pact, consisting of the old Warsaw pact minus Russia, would be a far more stable alternative than joining NATO and poking the Russian bear. So far as I can tell, the new US missiles in Poland and Romania are a genuine problem, because in case of an apparent missile attack on Russia, the Russian government now has half the time that it used to in order to decide whether the attack is real or a false alarm. If stories of the Cold War are to believed, human civilization came come close to annihilation a few times because of false alarms.

    As for a neo-Warsaw pact, all you really have to do is have a binding treaty and coordinate sufficiently scary deterrents to outside aggression, while at the same time avoiding unnecessary provocation. Most of defense is about signaling. And with modern military technology, this has become cheaper, especially if a group of middle income countries were to share the costs.

    As for the Muslims in Russia, there are lots of them already here, but many of them are very rooted, unlike those in Western Europe, and that makes a difference. It's mostly the Caucasian Muslims that cause problems, but they make up a minority of all Muslims in Russia, I think. However, bringing in new Muslims is a bad idea. Everyone here is agreed about that.

    About Poland, Hungary, and similar countries (including perhaps Ukraine): if they had sufficient political will, they should be able to coordinate their policies with respect to the EU and extract necessary concessions.

    That would, objectively, be the ideal, at least for people who care about European civilization. Not to split them up, half going to the Western EU and half joining Eurasia. The bigger this central European zone, the better.

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  66. both of which had populations favorably predisposed to a Russian alliance – quite unlike the Hungarian population

    This is a surprise to me, given how pro Russia Jobbik is. Does Jobbik’s pro Russia position hurt them electorally?

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    • Replies: @AP
    Russia is less unpopular in Hungary than in most European countries, but still unpopular there:

    http://www.pewglobal.org/2017/08/16/publics-worldwide-unfavorable-toward-putin-russia/

    48% of Hungarians view Russia unfavorably, 39% favorably. This is the best ratio for Russia in Europe, other than in Greece.

    For Poland these figures are 69% and 21%, respectively.

    For both countries, Putin is more disliked than is Russia.
    , @reiner Tor
    I don’t know. I don’t like Jobbik much anyway, but they are not totally pro-Russia, for example I think they still want to remove the Soviet “liberation” memorial from the downtown in Budapest.

    Most people don’t think about Russia too much, it’s not an important issue. For example before 2008 the then leftist prime minister Gyurcsány was all chummy with Putin, and Orbán criticized it. Then Orbán came to power and at first tried to coordinate with the Poles, who at the time weren’t too enthusiastic and decided to make a separate gas import deal with Putin. So after some hesitation he turned to Putin to repair ties (in 2008 Orbán publicly supported Saakashvili!), and slowly it became the “friendship” that you can see now.

    Now Fidesz voters loudly criticized Gyurcsány’s Putin friendship, while leftist voters either defended it or just stayed silent on the issue. Now it’s leftist voters who denounce Orbán as “Putin’s poodle”, while his voters either avoid the topic or actively defend it. The vast majority don’t think much about Russia, which is seen as a far away country.
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  67. AP says:
    @Greasy William

    both of which had populations favorably predisposed to a Russian alliance – quite unlike the Hungarian population
     
    This is a surprise to me, given how pro Russia Jobbik is. Does Jobbik's pro Russia position hurt them electorally?

    Russia is less unpopular in Hungary than in most European countries, but still unpopular there:

    http://www.pewglobal.org/2017/08/16/publics-worldwide-unfavorable-toward-putin-russia/

    48% of Hungarians view Russia unfavorably, 39% favorably. This is the best ratio for Russia in Europe, other than in Greece.

    For Poland these figures are 69% and 21%, respectively.

    For both countries, Putin is more disliked than is Russia.

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    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    It might be the result that the leftist voters were always more favorable toward Russia, and now that Orbán started closer relations with it, it probably helped Russia’s image among rightist voters more than it did damage among leftists.
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  68. melanf says:
    @AP
    Because a place whose Russian majority is only 70 years old and is due to the mass deportation of the actual natives, is equivalent to a place whose majority population actually consists of the indigenous inhabitants.

    That being said:

    1. Had things been done normally (Crimeans actually elect a pro-Russian annexation party, they run a free and fair referendum with international observers - real ones, not a motley collection of Nazis and Stalinists) the results should have been accepted.

    2. Ukraine is better off without Crimea and without the Russian parts of Donbas. It is more cohesive.

    Because a place whose Russian majority is only 70 years old

    At least a hundred years. The Population Of Crimea:
    1917 — 749 800 people (41.2% Russian, 28.7 % of the Crimean Tatars, and 8.6 % Ukrainians, 6.4 % Jews, 4.9 % Germans, 2.9 % of Greeks, 1.6% of Armenians, Bulgarians 1.4%, 0.8% poles, 0.7 % of Turks)

    1920 — 718 900 (44,1 % Russians, 26 % of the Crimean Tatars, 7,4 % of Ukrainians, 6,7 % of the Jews, 5,9% Germans, 3.3 percent Greeks, and 1.7 % Armenian, 1.5% of Bulgarians, 0.8% China, 0.8% poles)

    1939 — 1 123 800 people (49,6 % Russian, 19.4% of the Crimean Tatars, 13.7% of Ukrainians, 5.8 % of the Jews, 4.5% of Germans, 1.8% of Greeks, Bulgarians 1.4%, 1.1% Armenian, 0.5% of poles)

    Russian majority is only 70 years old and is due to the mass deportation

    Lol no

    of the actual natives

    Russians (and Ukrainians) are the same the natives of the Crimea as Crimean Tatars.

    Had things been done normally (Crimeans actually elect a pro-Russian annexation party, they run a free and fair referendum with international observers – real ones, not a motley collection of Nazis and Stalinists) the results should have been accepted.

    Ha ha ha. No doubt the Crimeans are actually elected Pro-Russian government, they conduct a free and fair referendum. International observers were invited but refused to come – and that’s their problem

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    • Replies: @AP

    At least a hundred years. The Population Of Crimea:
    1917 — 749 800 people (41.2% Russian, 28.7 % of the Crimean Tatars, and 8.6 % Ukrainians, 6.4 % Jews, 4.9 % Germans, 2.9 % of Greeks, 1.6% of Armenians, Bulgarians 1.4%, 0.8% poles, 0.7 % of Turks)

    1920 — 718 900 (44,1 % Russians, 26 % of the Crimean Tatars, 7,4 % of Ukrainians, 6,7 % of the Jews, 5,9% Germans, 3.3 percent Greeks, and 1.7 % Armenian, 1.5% of Bulgarians, 0.8% China, 0.8% poles)

    1939 — 1 123 800 people (49,6 % Russian, 19.4% of the Crimean Tatars, 13.7% of Ukrainians, 5.8 % of the Jews, 4.5% of Germans, 1.8% of Greeks, Bulgarians 1.4%, 1.1% Armenian, 0.5% of poles)
     
    So in 1939 Russians were still less than 50% of Crimea's population.

    What changed after 1939?

    Russians (and Ukrainians) are the same the natives of the Crimea as Crimean Tatars
     
    And whites are the same natives of Hawaii as Polynesians.

    No doubt the Crimeans are actually elected Pro-Russian government
     
    No, the separatist party got under 10%; Crimeans were satisfied within Ukraine while Yanukovich was president.

    they conduct a free and fair referendum
     
    LOL.

    Union with Russia would have won, had there been a free and fair referendum. But this one wasn't either.
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  69. As The Big Red Scary has pointed out, the Muslim minorities in Russia are “rooted” there – like Lipka Tatars in Poland. The biggest problem region in Russia are DICh (Dagestan-Ingushetia-Chechnya), but they are not very significant demographically. This is contrast to France, where they tend to be immigrants living a derooted and crime/welfare-prone existence and highly susceptible to radical Islam.

    The big danger is of course Central Asian immigration. AP also overdoes it – as I have also pointed out in past articles, they are mostly men, they tend to shuttle in and out of Russia as opposed to staying permanently, even in Moscow baby names from that region only begin to appear around the 30th most popular mark (whereas Mohammed is the most popular baby name in many larger European cities). The counterargument to that is of course that this seems very similar to what was happened in 1960s Germany, when there was a widespread expectation that the Gastarbeiters would go home, which didn’t exactly pan out. But it’s rather more subtle and long-term than the picture that AP paints.

    As we have also discussed in the past, its not exactly fair to compare Visegrad/Ukraine to Russia in this respect. Not only because 90%+ of Russia’s Muslims are native to the region – the central Russian heartlands outside Moscow are almost as homogenous as Czechia or Poland – but because immigrants have absolutely no incentives to go there (regardless of how based, or not, those countries are). There is free movement within Schengen, and Germany/Sweden have 3x the salaries and 10x the welfare as Poland. As for Ukraine, well… the average salary in Uzbekistan is higher than in the Ukraine. That is as solid a barrier to Muslim immigration as any, but not exactly one that I would write home about.

    The processes of poz are completely universal, as reiner Tor has observed is the case even in “based” Hungary, and in this regard there are very little differences between Visegrad and Russia. They all emerged out of the Communist deep freezer at around the same time 30 years ago and are now both completely subject to Anglo cultural hegemony with all its attendant consequences.

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    • Replies: @AP

    As The Big Red Scary has pointed out, the Muslim minorities in Russia are “rooted” there – like Lipka Tatars in Poland.
     
    There are fewer than 2,000 Lipka Tatars in Poland. They are basically 0% of the population. In contrast, Russia's rooted Muslim population is around 10%. That about ties Russia with France as the most Muslim European country, making Russia much more Muslim than the EU as a whole. And this doesn't include migrants.

    You are correct that Russia's Turkic Muslim natives (vs. its Caucasian ones) are much less troublesome than are France's Algerians, though probably not better than Germany's Turks.

    the central Russian heartlands outside Moscow are almost as homogenous as Czechia or Poland
     
    Depends where. Poland is .1% Islamic. Places like Tver north of Moscow are around 1% Islamic, so not much difference (ten times more than Poland, but still small difference by absolute numbers). Places along the Volga like Samara or Nizhni Novgorod oblast are around 5% Muslim - 50x more than in Poland.

    but because immigrants have absolutely no incentives to go there (regardless of how based, or not, those countries are). There is free movement within Schengen, and Germany/Sweden have 3x the salaries and 10x the welfare as Poland. As for Ukraine, well… the average salary in Uzbekistan is higher than in the Ukraine. That is as solid a barrier to Muslim immigration as any, but not exactly one that I would write home about.
     
    Correct. In neither case (joining EU or joining Eurasia) would mass Muslim immigration be a problem. But is mass migration in the short to mid term the only reason not to join a heavily Islamic group? The Eurasian Customs union is something like 25% Muslim, and will be more if it further expands into Central Asia. EU is only around 5% Islamic.
    , @DNC
    Another thing to remember is the African migration into Europe (especially France ), which might not be Muslim.
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  70. Mr. Hack says:
    @neutral

    Why must Ukraine need to disappear
     
    You do know that joining the US gang of puppets that Ukraine will disappear faster than anything that Russia could ever muster? I am talking about having to accept mass immigration from non white lands, giving up sovereignty to faceless bureaucrats in Brussels and crusading SJWs in Silicon Valley, and mass propaganda of racial equality and LGBTXYZETC. Ukraine will not exist in 50 years time in any meaningful sense, and this was for what exactly again, a "better trade deal", oh wait "for freedom" (as if the increasingly post Western hardening liberal totalitarianism is freedom).

    You do know that joining the US gang of puppets that Ukraine will disappear faster than anything that Russia could ever muster?

    Ukraine has now been around for 26 years, and will not soon disappear – the Ukrainian people have shown that they’re resilient and will not cower in front of a Russian aggressor. The sooner that Russia learns to respect its neighbor to the south, the sooner both countries will begin to prosper.

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    • Replies: @RadicalCenter
    Not resilient enough to have children and actually perpetuate their own families and nation. Kind of an important defect, no?

    I have been to Ukraine and am fond of Ukrainians, but their population is starting to drop faster. Precipitous and massive decline in the Ukrainian population is long underway already.

    There will be 15-20 million Ukrainians, or fewer, within the lifetime of readers here, not enough to be a meaningful economic, cultural, diplomatic, or military presence, and not enough to resist even briefly whatever Russia or any other middle to major power wants to do to them and their land.

    Population of Ukraine in 1993 at its peak: 52.2 million
    Today: TEN MILLION FEWER, only 42 million and still shrinking by 150,000 or more every year

    Sadly, Ukrainians are, literally, disappearing, whether Russia respects them or not. It's not just emigration, it's that on a widespread basis, Ukrainians, like other demoralized and confused white peoples, simply fail to have children.

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  71. AP says:
    @melanf

    Because a place whose Russian majority is only 70 years old
     
    At least a hundred years. The Population Of Crimea:
    1917 — 749 800 people (41.2% Russian, 28.7 % of the Crimean Tatars, and 8.6 % Ukrainians, 6.4 % Jews, 4.9 % Germans, 2.9 % of Greeks, 1.6% of Armenians, Bulgarians 1.4%, 0.8% poles, 0.7 % of Turks)

    1920 — 718 900 (44,1 % Russians, 26 % of the Crimean Tatars, 7,4 % of Ukrainians, 6,7 % of the Jews, 5,9% Germans, 3.3 percent Greeks, and 1.7 % Armenian, 1.5% of Bulgarians, 0.8% China, 0.8% poles)

    1939 — 1 123 800 people (49,6 % Russian, 19.4% of the Crimean Tatars, 13.7% of Ukrainians, 5.8 % of the Jews, 4.5% of Germans, 1.8% of Greeks, Bulgarians 1.4%, 1.1% Armenian, 0.5% of poles)

    Russian majority is only 70 years old and is due to the mass deportation
     
    Lol no

    of the actual natives
     
    Russians (and Ukrainians) are the same the natives of the Crimea as Crimean Tatars.

    Had things been done normally (Crimeans actually elect a pro-Russian annexation party, they run a free and fair referendum with international observers – real ones, not a motley collection of Nazis and Stalinists) the results should have been accepted.
     
    Ha ha ha. No doubt the Crimeans are actually elected Pro-Russian government, they conduct a free and fair referendum. International observers were invited but refused to come - and that's their problem

    At least a hundred years. The Population Of Crimea:
    1917 — 749 800 people (41.2% Russian, 28.7 % of the Crimean Tatars, and 8.6 % Ukrainians, 6.4 % Jews, 4.9 % Germans, 2.9 % of Greeks, 1.6% of Armenians, Bulgarians 1.4%, 0.8% poles, 0.7 % of Turks)

    1920 — 718 900 (44,1 % Russians, 26 % of the Crimean Tatars, 7,4 % of Ukrainians, 6,7 % of the Jews, 5,9% Germans, 3.3 percent Greeks, and 1.7 % Armenian, 1.5% of Bulgarians, 0.8% China, 0.8% poles)

    1939 — 1 123 800 people (49,6 % Russian, 19.4% of the Crimean Tatars, 13.7% of Ukrainians, 5.8 % of the Jews, 4.5% of Germans, 1.8% of Greeks, Bulgarians 1.4%, 1.1% Armenian, 0.5% of poles)

    So in 1939 Russians were still less than 50% of Crimea’s population.

    What changed after 1939?

    Russians (and Ukrainians) are the same the natives of the Crimea as Crimean Tatars

    And whites are the same natives of Hawaii as Polynesians.

    No doubt the Crimeans are actually elected Pro-Russian government

    No, the separatist party got under 10%; Crimeans were satisfied within Ukraine while Yanukovich was president.

    they conduct a free and fair referendum

    LOL.

    Union with Russia would have won, had there been a free and fair referendum. But this one wasn’t either.

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    • Replies: @melanf

    So in 1939 Russians were still less than 50% of Crimea’s population.
     
    49.6% have a huge difference from 50%

    What changed after 1939?
     
    And what has changed? Probably you mean ethnic cleansing against the Russian population (conducted by Tatar collaborationists)?


    Russians (and Ukrainians) are the same the natives of the Crimea as Crimean Tatars
     
    And whites are the same natives of Hawaii as Polynesians.
     
    Lol no. The Crimean Tatars "formed" in the Crimea in the 14th-15th century. From the very beginning of their existence, Crimean Tatars were the slave owners and slave hunters. Tatars constantly raided Russian principalities capturing slaves. Some slaves Tartars sold to the Turks, and the part left in the Crimea. That is, in the Crimea (under the Tatar power) constantly lived in Russian and "Ukrainian" population. In the case of Polynesians, Indians etc. was nothing like this

    http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/rus_turk/38498502/1904542/1904542_original.jpg

    Union with Russia would have won, had there been a free and fair referendum. But this one wasn’t either.
     
    this one was free and fair referendum
    , @The Big Red Scary
    "And whites are the same natives of Hawaii as Polynesians."

    Jews and Palestinians in Palestine…

    Life is complicated.

    Maybe we should become political activists and demand Putler give Crimea back to Turkey.

    , @melanf

    No, the separatist party got under 10%; Crimeans were satisfied within Ukraine while Yanukovich was president.
     
    6 March the Parliament of Crimea unanimously adopted the decision on joining of Crimea to Russia.
    That was under Yanukovych is irrelevant
    , @bobjil
    Slavs have always live in the area. Tartars moved in the area in about in the 1400s for the Slav slave trade. They took it over in 1453 when the Byzantine empire was conquered. Greeks settled in Crimea in 500 BC. Crimean Greeks used to go the Olympics every four years during the ancient Greece era. So Tartars are native to Crimea as much as Spaniards and Portuguese in Latin America. They all arrived in their new lands in the 1400s.
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  72. AP says:
    @Anatoly Karlin
    As The Big Red Scary has pointed out, the Muslim minorities in Russia are "rooted" there - like Lipka Tatars in Poland. The biggest problem region in Russia are DICh (Dagestan-Ingushetia-Chechnya), but they are not very significant demographically. This is contrast to France, where they tend to be immigrants living a derooted and crime/welfare-prone existence and highly susceptible to radical Islam.

    The big danger is of course Central Asian immigration. AP also overdoes it - as I have also pointed out in past articles, they are mostly men, they tend to shuttle in and out of Russia as opposed to staying permanently, even in Moscow baby names from that region only begin to appear around the 30th most popular mark (whereas Mohammed is the most popular baby name in many larger European cities). The counterargument to that is of course that this seems very similar to what was happened in 1960s Germany, when there was a widespread expectation that the Gastarbeiters would go home, which didn't exactly pan out. But it's rather more subtle and long-term than the picture that AP paints.

    As we have also discussed in the past, its not exactly fair to compare Visegrad/Ukraine to Russia in this respect. Not only because 90%+ of Russia's Muslims are native to the region - the central Russian heartlands outside Moscow are almost as homogenous as Czechia or Poland - but because immigrants have absolutely no incentives to go there (regardless of how based, or not, those countries are). There is free movement within Schengen, and Germany/Sweden have 3x the salaries and 10x the welfare as Poland. As for Ukraine, well... the average salary in Uzbekistan is higher than in the Ukraine. That is as solid a barrier to Muslim immigration as any, but not exactly one that I would write home about.

    The processes of poz are completely universal, as reiner Tor has observed is the case even in "based" Hungary, and in this regard there are very little differences between Visegrad and Russia. They all emerged out of the Communist deep freezer at around the same time 30 years ago and are now both completely subject to Anglo cultural hegemony with all its attendant consequences.

    As The Big Red Scary has pointed out, the Muslim minorities in Russia are “rooted” there – like Lipka Tatars in Poland.

    There are fewer than 2,000 Lipka Tatars in Poland. They are basically 0% of the population. In contrast, Russia’s rooted Muslim population is around 10%. That about ties Russia with France as the most Muslim European country, making Russia much more Muslim than the EU as a whole. And this doesn’t include migrants.

    You are correct that Russia’s Turkic Muslim natives (vs. its Caucasian ones) are much less troublesome than are France’s Algerians, though probably not better than Germany’s Turks.

    the central Russian heartlands outside Moscow are almost as homogenous as Czechia or Poland

    Depends where. Poland is .1% Islamic. Places like Tver north of Moscow are around 1% Islamic, so not much difference (ten times more than Poland, but still small difference by absolute numbers). Places along the Volga like Samara or Nizhni Novgorod oblast are around 5% Muslim – 50x more than in Poland.

    but because immigrants have absolutely no incentives to go there (regardless of how based, or not, those countries are). There is free movement within Schengen, and Germany/Sweden have 3x the salaries and 10x the welfare as Poland. As for Ukraine, well… the average salary in Uzbekistan is higher than in the Ukraine. That is as solid a barrier to Muslim immigration as any, but not exactly one that I would write home about.

    Correct. In neither case (joining EU or joining Eurasia) would mass Muslim immigration be a problem. But is mass migration in the short to mid term the only reason not to join a heavily Islamic group? The Eurasian Customs union is something like 25% Muslim, and will be more if it further expands into Central Asia. EU is only around 5% Islamic.

    Read More
    • Replies: @LondonBob
    Race matters, religion not so much. Russia has no African population, Western Europe they are becoming legion.
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  73. LondonBob says:
    @Onanymous

    Russia actually abrogated this contract, therefore making Ukraine’s possible future relations with NATO more realistic. Keep in mind that prior to Putin’s Ukrainian adventure, most Ukrainians were squarely opposed to Ukrainian involvement with NATO. Not anymore.
     
    Russia intentionally pushes Ukraine into NATO. Russian complaints about “NATO expansion” are just for show, like Western complaints about mythical “Russian threat”.

    Eastern Europe has to be equipped with NATO weapons.

    Russia tried to join NATO after Poland joined and in Putin’s first few years, they were rebuffed because the US believed Russia would become an alternate power centre in NATO. I can see why the Ukraine or Belarus joining NATO would matter, the Balts what does it matter.

    Read More
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  74. LondonBob says:
    @AP

    As The Big Red Scary has pointed out, the Muslim minorities in Russia are “rooted” there – like Lipka Tatars in Poland.
     
    There are fewer than 2,000 Lipka Tatars in Poland. They are basically 0% of the population. In contrast, Russia's rooted Muslim population is around 10%. That about ties Russia with France as the most Muslim European country, making Russia much more Muslim than the EU as a whole. And this doesn't include migrants.

    You are correct that Russia's Turkic Muslim natives (vs. its Caucasian ones) are much less troublesome than are France's Algerians, though probably not better than Germany's Turks.

    the central Russian heartlands outside Moscow are almost as homogenous as Czechia or Poland
     
    Depends where. Poland is .1% Islamic. Places like Tver north of Moscow are around 1% Islamic, so not much difference (ten times more than Poland, but still small difference by absolute numbers). Places along the Volga like Samara or Nizhni Novgorod oblast are around 5% Muslim - 50x more than in Poland.

    but because immigrants have absolutely no incentives to go there (regardless of how based, or not, those countries are). There is free movement within Schengen, and Germany/Sweden have 3x the salaries and 10x the welfare as Poland. As for Ukraine, well… the average salary in Uzbekistan is higher than in the Ukraine. That is as solid a barrier to Muslim immigration as any, but not exactly one that I would write home about.
     
    Correct. In neither case (joining EU or joining Eurasia) would mass Muslim immigration be a problem. But is mass migration in the short to mid term the only reason not to join a heavily Islamic group? The Eurasian Customs union is something like 25% Muslim, and will be more if it further expands into Central Asia. EU is only around 5% Islamic.

    Race matters, religion not so much. Russia has no African population, Western Europe they are becoming legion.

    Read More
    • Replies: @The Big Red Scary
    Recently I have been traveling in Western Europe to places where I used to live and have been noticing more black Africans than say five years ago. I would think that I am just paying closer to attention now that I spend too much time hanging at the Unz Review, but the difference in numbers seems too striking. Are there any good numbers on this?
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  75. melanf says:
    @AP

    At least a hundred years. The Population Of Crimea:
    1917 — 749 800 people (41.2% Russian, 28.7 % of the Crimean Tatars, and 8.6 % Ukrainians, 6.4 % Jews, 4.9 % Germans, 2.9 % of Greeks, 1.6% of Armenians, Bulgarians 1.4%, 0.8% poles, 0.7 % of Turks)

    1920 — 718 900 (44,1 % Russians, 26 % of the Crimean Tatars, 7,4 % of Ukrainians, 6,7 % of the Jews, 5,9% Germans, 3.3 percent Greeks, and 1.7 % Armenian, 1.5% of Bulgarians, 0.8% China, 0.8% poles)

    1939 — 1 123 800 people (49,6 % Russian, 19.4% of the Crimean Tatars, 13.7% of Ukrainians, 5.8 % of the Jews, 4.5% of Germans, 1.8% of Greeks, Bulgarians 1.4%, 1.1% Armenian, 0.5% of poles)
     
    So in 1939 Russians were still less than 50% of Crimea's population.

    What changed after 1939?

    Russians (and Ukrainians) are the same the natives of the Crimea as Crimean Tatars
     
    And whites are the same natives of Hawaii as Polynesians.

    No doubt the Crimeans are actually elected Pro-Russian government
     
    No, the separatist party got under 10%; Crimeans were satisfied within Ukraine while Yanukovich was president.

    they conduct a free and fair referendum
     
    LOL.

    Union with Russia would have won, had there been a free and fair referendum. But this one wasn't either.

    So in 1939 Russians were still less than 50% of Crimea’s population.

    49.6% have a huge difference from 50%

    What changed after 1939?

    And what has changed? Probably you mean ethnic cleansing against the Russian population (conducted by Tatar collaborationists)?

    Russians (and Ukrainians) are the same the natives of the Crimea as Crimean Tatars

    And whites are the same natives of Hawaii as Polynesians.

    Lol no. The Crimean Tatars “formed” in the Crimea in the 14th-15th century. From the very beginning of their existence, Crimean Tatars were the slave owners and slave hunters. Tatars constantly raided Russian principalities capturing slaves. Some slaves Tartars sold to the Turks, and the part left in the Crimea. That is, in the Crimea (under the Tatar power) constantly lived in Russian and “Ukrainian” population. In the case of Polynesians, Indians etc. was nothing like this

    Union with Russia would have won, had there been a free and fair referendum. But this one wasn’t either.

    this one was free and fair referendum

    Read More
    • Replies: @AP

    49.6% have a huge difference from 50%
     
    Either Russians were a majority or they were not one. Where do you draw the line? At 50%.

    Sorry if math is bad for you.


    And what has changed? Probably you mean ethnic cleansing against the Russian population (conducted by Tatar collaborationists)?
     
    Is that what made Russians more than 50% of Crimea's population? Or was it Stalin's deportation of the Crimean Tatar natives.

    So to repeat the obvious: Russians have only been a majority (over 50%) of Crimea's population for about 70 years.


    Lol no. The Crimean Tatars “formed” in the Crimea in the 14th-15th century.
     
    They formed from a mixture of Tatar invaders and the Greeks and Ostrogoths living there previously. Genetically, Crimean Tatars are only about 40%-45% Asian. Their roots in Crimea go back thousands of years years.

    Crimean Tatars are as native to Crimea as Mexican mestizos are native to Mexico. The latter are not simply Spaniards, you know.


    From the very beginning of their existence, Crimean Tatars were the slave owners and slave hunters. Tatars constantly raided Russian principalities capturing slaves. Some slaves Tartars sold to the Turks, and the part left in the Crimea.
     
    No kidding. By that logic would should be done to American Southerners?

    But you are changing the subject from - are they natives? - to: are they bastards who deserved what they got? Well, since you are obviously wrong, changing the subject is a good strategy for you to pursue.

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  76. @LondonBob
    Race matters, religion not so much. Russia has no African population, Western Europe they are becoming legion.

    Recently I have been traveling in Western Europe to places where I used to live and have been noticing more black Africans than say five years ago. I would think that I am just paying closer to attention now that I spend too much time hanging at the Unz Review, but the difference in numbers seems too striking. Are there any good numbers on this?

    Read More
    • Replies: @German_reader

    I would think that I am just paying closer to attention now that I spend too much time hanging at the Unz Review, but the difference in numbers seems too striking.
     
    It certainly has increased a lot in Germany, I can't find numbers now, but iirc there were media articles earlier in the year which stated the number of Africans in Germany had doubled in the last 5-7 years (even more stunning, the number of Afghans has increased to about five times of what it was in 2010).
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  77. LondonBob says:
    @The Big Red Scary
    But what’s the point of being a crypto-Jew? Many of the most famous oligarchs, including some close to Putin, are Jewish, and openly fund and support Jewish organizations in Russia. As a scientist, I know plenty of Jews in Moscow, and most of them seem to be quite comfortable with their hybrid identity. Indeed, a number of them spent time in Israel, got fed up with it, and came back home to Russia.

    I didn’t ask but the usual reasons crypsis has been practised would be my guess, to fit in and keep a low profile.

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  78. @AP

    At least a hundred years. The Population Of Crimea:
    1917 — 749 800 people (41.2% Russian, 28.7 % of the Crimean Tatars, and 8.6 % Ukrainians, 6.4 % Jews, 4.9 % Germans, 2.9 % of Greeks, 1.6% of Armenians, Bulgarians 1.4%, 0.8% poles, 0.7 % of Turks)

    1920 — 718 900 (44,1 % Russians, 26 % of the Crimean Tatars, 7,4 % of Ukrainians, 6,7 % of the Jews, 5,9% Germans, 3.3 percent Greeks, and 1.7 % Armenian, 1.5% of Bulgarians, 0.8% China, 0.8% poles)

    1939 — 1 123 800 people (49,6 % Russian, 19.4% of the Crimean Tatars, 13.7% of Ukrainians, 5.8 % of the Jews, 4.5% of Germans, 1.8% of Greeks, Bulgarians 1.4%, 1.1% Armenian, 0.5% of poles)
     
    So in 1939 Russians were still less than 50% of Crimea's population.

    What changed after 1939?

    Russians (and Ukrainians) are the same the natives of the Crimea as Crimean Tatars
     
    And whites are the same natives of Hawaii as Polynesians.

    No doubt the Crimeans are actually elected Pro-Russian government
     
    No, the separatist party got under 10%; Crimeans were satisfied within Ukraine while Yanukovich was president.

    they conduct a free and fair referendum
     
    LOL.

    Union with Russia would have won, had there been a free and fair referendum. But this one wasn't either.

    “And whites are the same natives of Hawaii as Polynesians.”

    Jews and Palestinians in Palestine…

    Life is complicated.

    Maybe we should become political activists and demand Putler give Crimea back to Turkey.

    Read More
    • Replies: @AP

    Maybe we should become political activists and demand Putler give Crimea back to Turkey
     
    The fair solution (and it won't happen, because the world doesn't operate fairly) would be an actual real referendum, with both sides making their cases equally, with exiles who escaped after the takeover allowed to participate, and with regions (such as those with high native Tatar population) being allowed to stay in Ukraine, or join Turkey, or be independent. It would also involve compensation for assets seized by Russia in Crimea (IIRC, Ukraine had invested $100 millions in gas exploration in the water off Crimea right before the takeover, for example).
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  79. AP says:
    @melanf

    So in 1939 Russians were still less than 50% of Crimea’s population.
     
    49.6% have a huge difference from 50%

    What changed after 1939?
     
    And what has changed? Probably you mean ethnic cleansing against the Russian population (conducted by Tatar collaborationists)?


    Russians (and Ukrainians) are the same the natives of the Crimea as Crimean Tatars
     
    And whites are the same natives of Hawaii as Polynesians.
     
    Lol no. The Crimean Tatars "formed" in the Crimea in the 14th-15th century. From the very beginning of their existence, Crimean Tatars were the slave owners and slave hunters. Tatars constantly raided Russian principalities capturing slaves. Some slaves Tartars sold to the Turks, and the part left in the Crimea. That is, in the Crimea (under the Tatar power) constantly lived in Russian and "Ukrainian" population. In the case of Polynesians, Indians etc. was nothing like this

    http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/rus_turk/38498502/1904542/1904542_original.jpg

    Union with Russia would have won, had there been a free and fair referendum. But this one wasn’t either.
     
    this one was free and fair referendum

    49.6% have a huge difference from 50%

    Either Russians were a majority or they were not one. Where do you draw the line? At 50%.

    Sorry if math is bad for you.

    And what has changed? Probably you mean ethnic cleansing against the Russian population (conducted by Tatar collaborationists)?

    Is that what made Russians more than 50% of Crimea’s population? Or was it Stalin’s deportation of the Crimean Tatar natives.

    So to repeat the obvious: Russians have only been a majority (over 50%) of Crimea’s population for about 70 years.

    Lol no. The Crimean Tatars “formed” in the Crimea in the 14th-15th century.

    They formed from a mixture of Tatar invaders and the Greeks and Ostrogoths living there previously. Genetically, Crimean Tatars are only about 40%-45% Asian. Their roots in Crimea go back thousands of years years.

    Crimean Tatars are as native to Crimea as Mexican mestizos are native to Mexico. The latter are not simply Spaniards, you know.

    From the very beginning of their existence, Crimean Tatars were the slave owners and slave hunters. Tatars constantly raided Russian principalities capturing slaves. Some slaves Tartars sold to the Turks, and the part left in the Crimea.

    No kidding. By that logic would should be done to American Southerners?

    But you are changing the subject from – are they natives? – to: are they bastards who deserved what they got? Well, since you are obviously wrong, changing the subject is a good strategy for you to pursue.

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    • Replies: @Greasy William

    No kidding. By that logic would should be done to American Southerners?
     
    American Southerners enslaved an inferior race who are not able to handle freedom. Big difference.

    I don't care about the Crimea, but certain populations can be so evil that they lose their rights to their land. Mexicans would be the number 1 example. They should be ethnically cleansed from Mexico and their land given to white Americans.
    , @melanf

    Either Russians were a majority or they were not one. Where do you draw the line? At 50%.
    Is that what made Russians more than 50% of Crimea’s population? Or was it Stalin’s deportation of the Crimean Tatar natives..
     
    At least a hundred years Russian largest ethnic group in Crimea.

    In 1917 41.2% Russian, 28.7 % of the Crimean Tatars in 1939 at 49.6 % Russian, 19.4% of the Crimean Tatars. In 2014, 68% of Russians and 12% Tatars. Without the destruction of Russian by the Germans (and Tatar collaborationists) and without a deportation (in response) Tatars, the demographics of Crimea would be about the same.

    Sorry if math is bad for you.


    Lol no. The Crimean Tatars “formed” in the Crimea in the 14th-15th century.
     
    They (Crimean Tatars ) formed from a mixture of Tatar invaders and the Greeks and Ostrogoths living there previously. Genetically, Crimean Tatars are only about 40%-45% Asian. Their roots in Crimea go back thousands of years years.
     
    Well modern Russian is formed as a mixture of proto-Slavs with the Scythians and Alans (the ancient inhabitants of the Crimea), and later Russian (near black sea) assimilate the part of the local Greeks and the last Ostrogoths (both ethnos - Orthodox). That is according to your "genetic" logic Russian roots in Crimea go back thousands of years years. Therefore Russians (and Ukrainians) are the same the natives of the Crimea as Crimean Tatars (and of course native to Crimea as Mexican mestizos are native to Mexico)

    Or maybe the fate of Crimea should be resolved by the Ossetians (the direct descendants of the Scythians)?

    No kidding. By that logic would should be done to American Southerners?
     
    White southerners - same level natives of the Southern United States, as black southerners. But Redskins certainly more "native".
    Similarly, Russian and Tatar equally natives of Crimea. And the Greeks are more native than Russian or Tatar

    However what does this have to do with the rights? You want to give America to the Indians, and Israel - to the Arabs?
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  80. AP says:
    @The Big Red Scary
    "And whites are the same natives of Hawaii as Polynesians."

    Jews and Palestinians in Palestine…

    Life is complicated.

    Maybe we should become political activists and demand Putler give Crimea back to Turkey.

    Maybe we should become political activists and demand Putler give Crimea back to Turkey

    The fair solution (and it won’t happen, because the world doesn’t operate fairly) would be an actual real referendum, with both sides making their cases equally, with exiles who escaped after the takeover allowed to participate, and with regions (such as those with high native Tatar population) being allowed to stay in Ukraine, or join Turkey, or be independent. It would also involve compensation for assets seized by Russia in Crimea (IIRC, Ukraine had invested $100 millions in gas exploration in the water off Crimea right before the takeover, for example).

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
    At this point I have to point out that Tatars are far from unequivocal Ukraine supporters.

    http://www.unz.com/akarlin/crimean-tatars-for-russia/

    https://www.unzcloud.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/poll-crimean-tatars-support-joining-russia.png
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  81. melanf says:
    @AP

    At least a hundred years. The Population Of Crimea:
    1917 — 749 800 people (41.2% Russian, 28.7 % of the Crimean Tatars, and 8.6 % Ukrainians, 6.4 % Jews, 4.9 % Germans, 2.9 % of Greeks, 1.6% of Armenians, Bulgarians 1.4%, 0.8% poles, 0.7 % of Turks)

    1920 — 718 900 (44,1 % Russians, 26 % of the Crimean Tatars, 7,4 % of Ukrainians, 6,7 % of the Jews, 5,9% Germans, 3.3 percent Greeks, and 1.7 % Armenian, 1.5% of Bulgarians, 0.8% China, 0.8% poles)

    1939 — 1 123 800 people (49,6 % Russian, 19.4% of the Crimean Tatars, 13.7% of Ukrainians, 5.8 % of the Jews, 4.5% of Germans, 1.8% of Greeks, Bulgarians 1.4%, 1.1% Armenian, 0.5% of poles)
     
    So in 1939 Russians were still less than 50% of Crimea's population.

    What changed after 1939?

    Russians (and Ukrainians) are the same the natives of the Crimea as Crimean Tatars
     
    And whites are the same natives of Hawaii as Polynesians.

    No doubt the Crimeans are actually elected Pro-Russian government
     
    No, the separatist party got under 10%; Crimeans were satisfied within Ukraine while Yanukovich was president.

    they conduct a free and fair referendum
     
    LOL.

    Union with Russia would have won, had there been a free and fair referendum. But this one wasn't either.

    No, the separatist party got under 10%; Crimeans were satisfied within Ukraine while Yanukovich was president.

    6 March the Parliament of Crimea unanimously adopted the decision on joining of Crimea to Russia.
    That was under Yanukovych is irrelevant

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    • Replies: @AP

    6 March the Parliament of Crimea unanimously adopted the decision on joining of Crimea to Russia.
     
    1. Were those people who voted, elected on a separatist ticket?

    2. Those who were opposed to this vote, like this Crimean MP were physically prevented by armed people from entering the parliament and participating. "Unanimous decision", indeed.

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  82. AP says:
    @melanf

    No, the separatist party got under 10%; Crimeans were satisfied within Ukraine while Yanukovich was president.
     
    6 March the Parliament of Crimea unanimously adopted the decision on joining of Crimea to Russia.
    That was under Yanukovych is irrelevant

    6 March the Parliament of Crimea unanimously adopted the decision on joining of Crimea to Russia.

    1. Were those people who voted, elected on a separatist ticket?

    2. Those who were opposed to this vote, like this Crimean MP were physically prevented by armed people from entering the parliament and participating. “Unanimous decision”, indeed.

    Read More
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  83. @AP

    Maybe we should become political activists and demand Putler give Crimea back to Turkey
     
    The fair solution (and it won't happen, because the world doesn't operate fairly) would be an actual real referendum, with both sides making their cases equally, with exiles who escaped after the takeover allowed to participate, and with regions (such as those with high native Tatar population) being allowed to stay in Ukraine, or join Turkey, or be independent. It would also involve compensation for assets seized by Russia in Crimea (IIRC, Ukraine had invested $100 millions in gas exploration in the water off Crimea right before the takeover, for example).

    At this point I have to point out that Tatars are far from unequivocal Ukraine supporters.

    http://www.unz.com/akarlin/crimean-tatars-for-russia/

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    • Replies: @AP
    1. This, after many (presumably) anti-Russian Tatars have left.

    2. Ukraine has been at war, cutting off electricity to Crimea probably didn't result in much goodwill, etc. so presumably circumstances more favorable to Russia than at the time of the referendum in 2014.

    3. It seems that anti-Russian Tatar activists are being persecuted there. To a greater extent than pro-Russians (who have 10% of parliament seats in Kiev) are persecuted in Ukraine.

    , @melanf

    At this point I have to point out that Tatars are far from unequivocal Ukraine supporters.
    http://www.unz.com/akarlin/crimean-tatars-for-russia/
     
    But the Crimean Ukrainians were (and are) unequivocal Russian supporters. Heh heh heh
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  84. AP says:
    @Anatoly Karlin
    At this point I have to point out that Tatars are far from unequivocal Ukraine supporters.

    http://www.unz.com/akarlin/crimean-tatars-for-russia/

    https://www.unzcloud.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/poll-crimean-tatars-support-joining-russia.png

    1. This, after many (presumably) anti-Russian Tatars have left.

    2. Ukraine has been at war, cutting off electricity to Crimea probably didn’t result in much goodwill, etc. so presumably circumstances more favorable to Russia than at the time of the referendum in 2014.

    3. It seems that anti-Russian Tatar activists are being persecuted there. To a greater extent than pro-Russians (who have 10% of parliament seats in Kiev) are persecuted in Ukraine.

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  85. DNC says:
    @Anatoly Karlin
    As The Big Red Scary has pointed out, the Muslim minorities in Russia are "rooted" there - like Lipka Tatars in Poland. The biggest problem region in Russia are DICh (Dagestan-Ingushetia-Chechnya), but they are not very significant demographically. This is contrast to France, where they tend to be immigrants living a derooted and crime/welfare-prone existence and highly susceptible to radical Islam.

    The big danger is of course Central Asian immigration. AP also overdoes it - as I have also pointed out in past articles, they are mostly men, they tend to shuttle in and out of Russia as opposed to staying permanently, even in Moscow baby names from that region only begin to appear around the 30th most popular mark (whereas Mohammed is the most popular baby name in many larger European cities). The counterargument to that is of course that this seems very similar to what was happened in 1960s Germany, when there was a widespread expectation that the Gastarbeiters would go home, which didn't exactly pan out. But it's rather more subtle and long-term than the picture that AP paints.

    As we have also discussed in the past, its not exactly fair to compare Visegrad/Ukraine to Russia in this respect. Not only because 90%+ of Russia's Muslims are native to the region - the central Russian heartlands outside Moscow are almost as homogenous as Czechia or Poland - but because immigrants have absolutely no incentives to go there (regardless of how based, or not, those countries are). There is free movement within Schengen, and Germany/Sweden have 3x the salaries and 10x the welfare as Poland. As for Ukraine, well... the average salary in Uzbekistan is higher than in the Ukraine. That is as solid a barrier to Muslim immigration as any, but not exactly one that I would write home about.

    The processes of poz are completely universal, as reiner Tor has observed is the case even in "based" Hungary, and in this regard there are very little differences between Visegrad and Russia. They all emerged out of the Communist deep freezer at around the same time 30 years ago and are now both completely subject to Anglo cultural hegemony with all its attendant consequences.

    Another thing to remember is the African migration into Europe (especially France ), which might not be Muslim.

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  86. @AP

    49.6% have a huge difference from 50%
     
    Either Russians were a majority or they were not one. Where do you draw the line? At 50%.

    Sorry if math is bad for you.


    And what has changed? Probably you mean ethnic cleansing against the Russian population (conducted by Tatar collaborationists)?
     
    Is that what made Russians more than 50% of Crimea's population? Or was it Stalin's deportation of the Crimean Tatar natives.

    So to repeat the obvious: Russians have only been a majority (over 50%) of Crimea's population for about 70 years.


    Lol no. The Crimean Tatars “formed” in the Crimea in the 14th-15th century.
     
    They formed from a mixture of Tatar invaders and the Greeks and Ostrogoths living there previously. Genetically, Crimean Tatars are only about 40%-45% Asian. Their roots in Crimea go back thousands of years years.

    Crimean Tatars are as native to Crimea as Mexican mestizos are native to Mexico. The latter are not simply Spaniards, you know.


    From the very beginning of their existence, Crimean Tatars were the slave owners and slave hunters. Tatars constantly raided Russian principalities capturing slaves. Some slaves Tartars sold to the Turks, and the part left in the Crimea.
     
    No kidding. By that logic would should be done to American Southerners?

    But you are changing the subject from - are they natives? - to: are they bastards who deserved what they got? Well, since you are obviously wrong, changing the subject is a good strategy for you to pursue.

    No kidding. By that logic would should be done to American Southerners?

    American Southerners enslaved an inferior race who are not able to handle freedom. Big difference.

    I don’t care about the Crimea, but certain populations can be so evil that they lose their rights to their land. Mexicans would be the number 1 example. They should be ethnically cleansed from Mexico and their land given to white Americans.

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    • Replies: @The Big Red Scary
    Thug life, as Talha likes to say.
    , @Seraphim
    When you think that it may turn out the other way round you may have a good laugh!
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  87. @Greasy William

    No kidding. By that logic would should be done to American Southerners?
     
    American Southerners enslaved an inferior race who are not able to handle freedom. Big difference.

    I don't care about the Crimea, but certain populations can be so evil that they lose their rights to their land. Mexicans would be the number 1 example. They should be ethnically cleansed from Mexico and their land given to white Americans.

    Thug life, as Talha likes to say.

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  88. melanf says:
    @AP

    49.6% have a huge difference from 50%
     
    Either Russians were a majority or they were not one. Where do you draw the line? At 50%.

    Sorry if math is bad for you.


    And what has changed? Probably you mean ethnic cleansing against the Russian population (conducted by Tatar collaborationists)?
     
    Is that what made Russians more than 50% of Crimea's population? Or was it Stalin's deportation of the Crimean Tatar natives.

    So to repeat the obvious: Russians have only been a majority (over 50%) of Crimea's population for about 70 years.


    Lol no. The Crimean Tatars “formed” in the Crimea in the 14th-15th century.
     
    They formed from a mixture of Tatar invaders and the Greeks and Ostrogoths living there previously. Genetically, Crimean Tatars are only about 40%-45% Asian. Their roots in Crimea go back thousands of years years.

    Crimean Tatars are as native to Crimea as Mexican mestizos are native to Mexico. The latter are not simply Spaniards, you know.


    From the very beginning of their existence, Crimean Tatars were the slave owners and slave hunters. Tatars constantly raided Russian principalities capturing slaves. Some slaves Tartars sold to the Turks, and the part left in the Crimea.
     
    No kidding. By that logic would should be done to American Southerners?

    But you are changing the subject from - are they natives? - to: are they bastards who deserved what they got? Well, since you are obviously wrong, changing the subject is a good strategy for you to pursue.

    Either Russians were a majority or they were not one. Where do you draw the line? At 50%.
    Is that what made Russians more than 50% of Crimea’s population? Or was it Stalin’s deportation of the Crimean Tatar natives..

    At least a hundred years Russian largest ethnic group in Crimea.

    In 1917 41.2% Russian, 28.7 % of the Crimean Tatars in 1939 at 49.6 % Russian, 19.4% of the Crimean Tatars. In 2014, 68% of Russians and 12% Tatars. Without the destruction of Russian by the Germans (and Tatar collaborationists) and without a deportation (in response) Tatars, the demographics of Crimea would be about the same.

    Sorry if math is bad for you.

    Lol no. The Crimean Tatars “formed” in the Crimea in the 14th-15th century.

    They (Crimean Tatars ) formed from a mixture of Tatar invaders and the Greeks and Ostrogoths living there previously. Genetically, Crimean Tatars are only about 40%-45% Asian. Their roots in Crimea go back thousands of years years.

    Well modern Russian is formed as a mixture of proto-Slavs with the Scythians and Alans (the ancient inhabitants of the Crimea), and later Russian (near black sea) assimilate the part of the local Greeks and the last Ostrogoths (both ethnos – Orthodox). That is according to your “genetic” logic Russian roots in Crimea go back thousands of years years. Therefore Russians (and Ukrainians) are the same the natives of the Crimea as Crimean Tatars (and of course native to Crimea as Mexican mestizos are native to Mexico)

    Or maybe the fate of Crimea should be resolved by the Ossetians (the direct descendants of the Scythians)?

    No kidding. By that logic would should be done to American Southerners?

    White southerners – same level natives of the Southern United States, as black southerners. But Redskins certainly more “native”.
    Similarly, Russian and Tatar equally natives of Crimea. And the Greeks are more native than Russian or Tatar

    However what does this have to do with the rights? You want to give America to the Indians, and Israel – to the Arabs?

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    • Replies: @AP

    At least a hundred years Russian largest ethnic group in Crimea.
     
    Correct. Good thing I never disputed this.

    I wrote this about Crimea: "Because a place whose Russian majority is only 70 years old and is due to the mass deportation of the actual natives, is equivalent to a place whose majority population actually consists of the indigenous inhabitants."

    In 1917 41.2% Russian, 28.7 % of the Crimean Tatars in 1939 at 49.6 % Russian, 19.4% of the Crimean Tatars. In 2014, 68% of Russians and 12% Tatars.
     
    And in 1897, 33.1% Russians and 35.6% Tatars.

    Without the destruction of Russian by the Germans (and Tatar collaborationists) and without a deportation (in response) Tatars, the demographics of Crimea would be about the same.
     
    So a little bit less than 50% Russian?

    In 1939 there were 558,481 Russians in Crimea. In 1959 there were 858,273 Russians in Crimea. And zero Tatars. Looks like German destruction of Russians in Crimea didn't lower the Russian population there. But the Soviet destruction of Tatars eliminated the Tatar population.

    Sorry if math is bad for you.
     
    It is not - it confirms what I have written and shows that you are wrong, as usual.

    Well modern Russian is formed as a mixture of proto-Slavs with the Scythians and Alans (the ancient inhabitants of the Crimea)
     
    And Finns.

    Are those Scythians and Alans Crimean ones, or rather those who settled in the steppes north of Crimea and mixed with the pro-Slav around those parts.

    later Russian (near black sea) assimilate the part of the local Greeks and the last Ostrogoths (both ethnos – Orthodox)
     
    Is this the kind of nonsense Russian svidomists are now learning in the Russian schools?

    Most of the Ostrogoths were assimilated by Tatars at the latest in the 17th century, long before Russians got there. Some visitors in the 1780s claimed they may have seen some Goths but these stories are like people seeing Welshmen among Indians in North America in 1800. The most detailed record of their speech comes not from when Russia annexed Crimea in 1780s but from a traveler in the 1560s.

    Catherine II deported the almost all the Crimean Greeks to the north shore of the Azov Sea in the 18th century.

    So, no significant Gothic or Greek descent among the Russian colonists.

    In contrast, Crimean Tatars are 40%-45% Asian (who invaded in the 14th century) and the rest - native, who had been there for thousands of years.

    Similarly, Russian and Tatar equally natives of Crimea.
     
    Nonsense, see above.

    However what does this have to do with the rights? You want to give America to the Indians, and Israel – to the Arabs?
     
    Jews were in Israel before Arabs. Crimean Tatars in Crimea before Russians. Most of America has been over 50% European for 200 years. Crimea Russian, for only 70 years. USA is .8% Native American. Crimea is 11% native Tatar. It's a silly comparison.
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  89. melanf says:
    @Anatoly Karlin
    At this point I have to point out that Tatars are far from unequivocal Ukraine supporters.

    http://www.unz.com/akarlin/crimean-tatars-for-russia/

    https://www.unzcloud.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/poll-crimean-tatars-support-joining-russia.png

    At this point I have to point out that Tatars are far from unequivocal Ukraine supporters.

    http://www.unz.com/akarlin/crimean-tatars-for-russia/

    But the Crimean Ukrainians were (and are) unequivocal Russian supporters. Heh heh heh

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    • Replies: @Mr. Hack

    But the Crimean Ukrainians were (and are) unequivocal Russian supporters. Heh heh heh
     
    But how do you know this? Isn't it hard to determine ones true preferences at the point of a gun?
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  90. @The Big Red Scary
    Recently I have been traveling in Western Europe to places where I used to live and have been noticing more black Africans than say five years ago. I would think that I am just paying closer to attention now that I spend too much time hanging at the Unz Review, but the difference in numbers seems too striking. Are there any good numbers on this?

    I would think that I am just paying closer to attention now that I spend too much time hanging at the Unz Review, but the difference in numbers seems too striking.

    It certainly has increased a lot in Germany, I can’t find numbers now, but iirc there were media articles earlier in the year which stated the number of Africans in Germany had doubled in the last 5-7 years (even more stunning, the number of Afghans has increased to about five times of what it was in 2010).

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    • Replies: @The Big Red Scary
    Presumably the black African influx is into larger cosmopolitan cities? Although I know a little dorf that took in some refugees from Afghanistan.

    I also hunted around for some statistics, but my German is middling.

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  91. @LondonBob
    I met a couple of Crypto-Jews when I lived in Moscow. Being of partial Welsh descent and thus having dark hair and dark eyes I was surprised to find some acquaintances thought I were Jewish. Not a phenomenon I had come across before. My old Russian boss in London was convinced several of the central Asian, Caucasian oligarchs were Crypto-Jews, I expect some are.

    So, Bob, you’re not a real Londoner, you’re a crypto-Welshman. What are the benefits ? Is there such a thing as Welsh Privilege ?
    Only joking.
    I did have a workmate here in Britain. He was born a Turkish citizen, but was largely of Armenian ancestry. As he himself told me, when in Turkey, he acted as a crypto-Armenian.
    Throughout history, there have been cryptos: and even today.

    Read More
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  92. Mr. Hack says:
    @melanf

    At this point I have to point out that Tatars are far from unequivocal Ukraine supporters.
    http://www.unz.com/akarlin/crimean-tatars-for-russia/
     
    But the Crimean Ukrainians were (and are) unequivocal Russian supporters. Heh heh heh

    But the Crimean Ukrainians were (and are) unequivocal Russian supporters. Heh heh heh

    But how do you know this? Isn’t it hard to determine ones true preferences at the point of a gun?

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    • Replies: @melanf

    But how do you know this? Isn’t it hard to determine ones true preferences at the point of a gun?
     
    All surveys (including Gallup) showed the same result as a referendum. Two previous referendums (in 1991 and 1994) had the same result.
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  93. @German_reader

    I would think that I am just paying closer to attention now that I spend too much time hanging at the Unz Review, but the difference in numbers seems too striking.
     
    It certainly has increased a lot in Germany, I can't find numbers now, but iirc there were media articles earlier in the year which stated the number of Africans in Germany had doubled in the last 5-7 years (even more stunning, the number of Afghans has increased to about five times of what it was in 2010).

    Presumably the black African influx is into larger cosmopolitan cities? Although I know a little dorf that took in some refugees from Afghanistan.

    I also hunted around for some statistics, but my German is middling.

    Read More
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  94. MarkinPNW says:
    @The Big Red Scary
    About Poland, Hungary, and similar countries (including perhaps Ukraine): if they had sufficient political will, they should be able to coordinate their policies with respect to the EU and extract necessary concessions. As for security concerns, I think a neo-Warsaw pact, consisting of the old Warsaw pact minus Russia, would be a far more stable alternative than joining NATO and poking the Russian bear. So far as I can tell, the new US missiles in Poland and Romania are a genuine problem, because in case of an apparent missile attack on Russia, the Russian government now has half the time that it used to in order to decide whether the attack is real or a false alarm. If stories of the Cold War are to believed, human civilization came come close to annihilation a few times because of false alarms.

    As for a neo-Warsaw pact, all you really have to do is have a binding treaty and coordinate sufficiently scary deterrents to outside aggression, while at the same time avoiding unnecessary provocation. Most of defense is about signaling. And with modern military technology, this has become cheaper, especially if a group of middle income countries were to share the costs.

    As for the Muslims in Russia, there are lots of them already here, but many of them are very rooted, unlike those in Western Europe, and that makes a difference. It's mostly the Caucasian Muslims that cause problems, but they make up a minority of all Muslims in Russia, I think. However, bringing in new Muslims is a bad idea. Everyone here is agreed about that.

    Well, Polish leader Pilsudski proposed exactly that after WW1, but Poland not having the power of a Russian or British/American Empire, could not obtain or force the co-operation of the other central European states.

    After all, the post WW2 Warsaw Pact and Nato were based in large part on the sponsoring Great Powers making an offer to the lesser powers that they could not refuse. Without a Great Power as a foundation to glue the alliance together, the lesser powers end up fragmenting the alliance out of suspicion and jealousy, or they simply refuse to join, such as what happened to Pilsudski’s Intermarium.

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  95. melanf says:
    @Mr. Hack

    But the Crimean Ukrainians were (and are) unequivocal Russian supporters. Heh heh heh
     
    But how do you know this? Isn't it hard to determine ones true preferences at the point of a gun?

    But how do you know this? Isn’t it hard to determine ones true preferences at the point of a gun?

    All surveys (including Gallup) showed the same result as a referendum. Two previous referendums (in 1991 and 1994) had the same result.

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  96. Pavlo says:
    @Mr. Hack
    I'll be glad to inform you which patriotic Ukrainian fighting corp I belong to, once you identify your own allegiance:

    1) neanderthalic Homo Sovieticus

    2) pseudo Russian Commie

    3) pure everyday, garden variety sovok

    4) mentally challenged vatnik

    5) giddy Kremlin Stooge

    My guess is that you're some type of conglomeration of each?...

    So you didn’t serve. Well of course you didn’t – the Ukrainian will do anything for his dead gay country except fight for it or live in it.

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    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    I was right, you really are a mixture of all five subgroups:

    1) neanderthalic Homo Sovieticus

    2) pseudo Russian Commie

    3) pure everyday, garden variety sovok

    4) mentally challenged vatnik

    5) giddy Kremlin Stooge
    , @AP
    I suspect not a single Russian patriot in this discussion, served either.

    the Ukrainian will do anything for his dead gay country except fight for it.
     
    Is this a subtle way of saying Ukrainians and Russians are the same people?
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  97. Pavlo says:
    @AP
    So in which anti-Kiev militia did you serve?

    Whataboutism, is it? For shame Orc, for shame. I’ll assume you never served either.

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  98. Onanymous says:

    The processes of poz are completely universal, as reiner Tor has observed is the case even in “based” Hungary, and in this regard there are very little differences between Visegrad and Russia. They all emerged out of the Communist deep freezer at around the same time 30 years ago and are now both completely subject to Anglo cultural hegemony with all its attendant consequences.

    After the next scheduled prophylactic injection of poz (inoculation), Russia again can be placed to the deep freezer — not the Communist but Conservative-Monarchist freezer, this time.

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  99. Mr. Hack says:
    @Pavlo
    So you didn't serve. Well of course you didn't - the Ukrainian will do anything for his dead gay country except fight for it or live in it.

    I was right, you really are a mixture of all five subgroups:

    1) neanderthalic Homo Sovieticus

    2) pseudo Russian Commie

    3) pure everyday, garden variety sovok

    4) mentally challenged vatnik

    5) giddy Kremlin Stooge

    Read More
    • Replies: @Pavlo
    Why didn't you serve, you sad little methhead? The Ukraine needed soldiers. The Ukraine cried out for men to fight for her - drunks, drugrats and convicts answered her call, but you did not!

    Heartless ape - you squatted on your knuckles while the Ukraine suffered. Homo Sovieticus is your absolute superior.
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  100. Pavlo says:
    @Mr. Hack
    I was right, you really are a mixture of all five subgroups:

    1) neanderthalic Homo Sovieticus

    2) pseudo Russian Commie

    3) pure everyday, garden variety sovok

    4) mentally challenged vatnik

    5) giddy Kremlin Stooge

    Why didn’t you serve, you sad little methhead? The Ukraine needed soldiers. The Ukraine cried out for men to fight for her – drunks, drugrats and convicts answered her call, but you did not!

    Heartless ape – you squatted on your knuckles while the Ukraine suffered. Homo Sovieticus is your absolute superior.

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    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    Not too many Americans are fighting in the recent war against Russia. How about you? With a Ukrainian spelling of the name Pavel, you're a Ukrainian turncoat, Pavlo. At least I've not betrayed the Ukrainian cause, like you have, you lousy SOB. :-(
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  101. Mr. Hack says:
    @Pavlo
    Why didn't you serve, you sad little methhead? The Ukraine needed soldiers. The Ukraine cried out for men to fight for her - drunks, drugrats and convicts answered her call, but you did not!

    Heartless ape - you squatted on your knuckles while the Ukraine suffered. Homo Sovieticus is your absolute superior.

    Not too many Americans are fighting in the recent war against Russia. How about you? With a Ukrainian spelling of the name Pavel, you’re a Ukrainian turncoat, Pavlo. At least I’ve not betrayed the Ukrainian cause, like you have, you lousy SOB. :-(

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    • Replies: @Pavlo
    Oh but you have betrayed the Ukrainian cause, shirker. Your shameful failure to answer the call to arms is your betrayal - Zradnik I name you, now and forever.

    You and the other diaspora blowhards would rather live easy lives in America or Europe than risk your necks for what you claim to believe. Shall I tell you something else? That's true of most 'Ukrainian patriots' in the old country as well .
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  102. Pavlo says:
    @Mr. Hack
    Not too many Americans are fighting in the recent war against Russia. How about you? With a Ukrainian spelling of the name Pavel, you're a Ukrainian turncoat, Pavlo. At least I've not betrayed the Ukrainian cause, like you have, you lousy SOB. :-(

    Oh but you have betrayed the Ukrainian cause, shirker. Your shameful failure to answer the call to arms is your betrayal – Zradnik I name you, now and forever.

    You and the other diaspora blowhards would rather live easy lives in America or Europe than risk your necks for what you claim to believe. Shall I tell you something else? That’s true of most ‘Ukrainian patriots’ in the old country as well .

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    • Replies: @Mr. Hack

    Zradnik I name you, now and forever.
     
    Oh my, oh my, I've been outed by the great, mental defect 'Pavlo' :-)

    By the way Pavlo, you haven't explained yet why you go by the Ukrainian spelling of your name instead of the Russian spelling? Some sort of ethnic schizophrenia, old boy??...
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  103. Gerard2 says:
    @AP

    joining the US gang of puppets that Ukraine will disappear faster than anything that Russia could ever muster? I am talking about having to accept mass immigration from non white lands, giving up sovereignty to faceless bureaucrats in Brussels and crusading SJWs in Silicon Valley, and mass propaganda of racial equality and LGBTXYZETC.
     
    Is this what happened to Poland and Hungary when they joined the Western orbit?

    This kind of scaremongering maybe would have reflected some real risks 20 years ago. Now it either reflects ignorance about central and Eastern Europe (completely understandable, for someone in the West) or is an example of arguing in bad faith.

    I'll assume the best and that your comment falls into the first category. Did you know that Russia has the highest % of Muslims of any European country (essentially, tied with France), making it much more Islamic than the EU as a whole? Did you know that Russia is part of a Customs Union that includes a couple Muslim countries? Do you think, given hundreds of years of history, that giving up sovereignty to bureaucrats in Moscow will result in more autonomy than doing so to ones in Brussels (first time this was attempted there was expansion of serfdom and total elimination of local autonomy, second time this was attempted there was mass starvation resulting in millions of lost lives)? Did you know, as AK has pointed out, that SJW activism is now underway in Russia too?

    Is this what happened to Poland and Hungary when they joined the Western orbit?

    hahaha! That’s because Poland is an emigrant emitting failed country- not an immigrant attracting successful one like Germany, you dumb prick.

    AK: As long as you continue using gratuitous insults that only detract from your argument so far as normal observers are concerned I will continue to truncate your comments with MORE tags. (Ergo for AP should he respond in kind).

    [MORE]

    Hungary is a wonderful successful country, that doesn’t export all its murderer,scumbag, rapists and thief’s as “catholic ” Poland does….Hungary has had pretty much the same size population for 60 years. Hungary isn’t a border country and is surrounded by the wealthier Austria and Germany- so it has no demand for migrants for internal economic reasons …and is a relatively unknown country for potential migrants (who have more attractive countries next to it like Germany and Austria that they would prefer to go to)

    Ukraine, as the name suggests, is a borderland ( so can have the problems that Greece and Italy have had that Hungary would never have you idiot) with a black sea coast, is a wasteland now that has just lost 1/5th of it’s population in 3 years…and is an ideal place for the EU to export all it’s problems like migrants to….most importantly it can make Ukraine take on migrants as a precondition for their non-existent ascension into the EU you retard.

    Did you know that Russia has the highest % of Muslims of any European country

    So Russia with 10% Muslims can still remain Russia, but pseudo-Catholic Poland spectacularly implodes (again) if it becomes even 0.5% Muslim……..that’s an insecure and weak country,

    Did you know that Russia has the highest % of Muslims of any European country

    errr….with most of them highly russified in terms of speaking the language fluently, a higher percentage of intermarriages with slavs ( even many kavkaz terrorists were married to slavs) than in any European country, they are also involved with Russia for 100′s of years………the immigration the poster was commentating on has no connection to that particular European country. So as usual you can up with a timewasting retarded non-argument to deflect the discussion…because you are a POS vermin with obvious mental problems.

    (first time this was attempted there was expansion of serfdom and total elimination of local autonomy, second time this was attempted there was mass starvation resulting in millions of lost lives)?

    hahaha! Again the POS attention-whore comes out with lies and further drivel. Complete BS from start-tofinish, The “second time” there was actually mass starvation 10-11 years before…..the American yellow press then used pictures from this period but claimed they were from the 30′s. Of course Stalin successfully did his work….there has been no famine in “Ukraine” ever since….the only people actually propagated this crap were dickheads who lived in areas unaffected by the famine that were not even part of Ukraine….them and fuckedup spambot retards who are son of Nazi-Bandera rapist scumbags who escaped to Canada and USA during or after the war.

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    • Replies: @AP
    And so my stalker goes back to barking.
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  104. AP says:
    @Gerard2

    Is this what happened to Poland and Hungary when they joined the Western orbit?
     
    hahaha! That's because Poland is an emigrant emitting failed country- not an immigrant attracting successful one like Germany, you dumb prick.

    AK: As long as you continue using gratuitous insults that only detract from your argument so far as normal observers are concerned I will continue to truncate your comments with MORE tags. (Ergo for AP should he respond in kind).



    Hungary is a wonderful successful country, that doesn't export all its murderer,scumbag, rapists and thief's as "catholic " Poland does....Hungary has had pretty much the same size population for 60 years. Hungary isn't a border country and is surrounded by the wealthier Austria and Germany- so it has no demand for migrants for internal economic reasons ...and is a relatively unknown country for potential migrants (who have more attractive countries next to it like Germany and Austria that they would prefer to go to)


    Ukraine, as the name suggests, is a borderland ( so can have the problems that Greece and Italy have had that Hungary would never have you idiot) with a black sea coast, is a wasteland now that has just lost 1/5th of it's population in 3 years...and is an ideal place for the EU to export all it's problems like migrants to....most importantly it can make Ukraine take on migrants as a precondition for their non-existent ascension into the EU you retard.

    Did you know that Russia has the highest % of Muslims of any European country

     

    So Russia with 10% Muslims can still remain Russia, but pseudo-Catholic Poland spectacularly implodes (again) if it becomes even 0.5% Muslim........that's an insecure and weak country,

    Did you know that Russia has the highest % of Muslims of any European country

     

    errr....with most of them highly russified in terms of speaking the language fluently, a higher percentage of intermarriages with slavs ( even many kavkaz terrorists were married to slavs) than in any European country, they are also involved with Russia for 100's of years.........the immigration the poster was commentating on has no connection to that particular European country. So as usual you can up with a timewasting retarded non-argument to deflect the discussion...because you are a POS vermin with obvious mental problems.

    (first time this was attempted there was expansion of serfdom and total elimination of local autonomy, second time this was attempted there was mass starvation resulting in millions of lost lives)?
     
    hahaha! Again the POS attention-whore comes out with lies and further drivel. Complete BS from start-tofinish, The "second time" there was actually mass starvation 10-11 years before.....the American yellow press then used pictures from this period but claimed they were from the 30's. Of course Stalin successfully did his work....there has been no famine in "Ukraine" ever since....the only people actually propagated this crap were dickheads who lived in areas unaffected by the famine that were not even part of Ukraine....them and fuckedup spambot retards who are son of Nazi-Bandera rapist scumbags who escaped to Canada and USA during or after the war.

    And so my stalker goes back to barking.

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  105. AP says:
    @Pavlo
    So you didn't serve. Well of course you didn't - the Ukrainian will do anything for his dead gay country except fight for it or live in it.

    I suspect not a single Russian patriot in this discussion, served either.

    the Ukrainian will do anything for his dead gay country except fight for it.

    Is this a subtle way of saying Ukrainians and Russians are the same people?

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    • Replies: @Pavlo
    Come now, it was your lot that claimed the whole of the 'civilised world' was menaced by 'Russian aggression' - if the gulf between your rhetoric and your actions makes you look foolish that's your responsibility.
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  106. AP says:
    @melanf

    Either Russians were a majority or they were not one. Where do you draw the line? At 50%.
    Is that what made Russians more than 50% of Crimea’s population? Or was it Stalin’s deportation of the Crimean Tatar natives..
     
    At least a hundred years Russian largest ethnic group in Crimea.

    In 1917 41.2% Russian, 28.7 % of the Crimean Tatars in 1939 at 49.6 % Russian, 19.4% of the Crimean Tatars. In 2014, 68% of Russians and 12% Tatars. Without the destruction of Russian by the Germans (and Tatar collaborationists) and without a deportation (in response) Tatars, the demographics of Crimea would be about the same.

    Sorry if math is bad for you.


    Lol no. The Crimean Tatars “formed” in the Crimea in the 14th-15th century.
     
    They (Crimean Tatars ) formed from a mixture of Tatar invaders and the Greeks and Ostrogoths living there previously. Genetically, Crimean Tatars are only about 40%-45% Asian. Their roots in Crimea go back thousands of years years.
     
    Well modern Russian is formed as a mixture of proto-Slavs with the Scythians and Alans (the ancient inhabitants of the Crimea), and later Russian (near black sea) assimilate the part of the local Greeks and the last Ostrogoths (both ethnos - Orthodox). That is according to your "genetic" logic Russian roots in Crimea go back thousands of years years. Therefore Russians (and Ukrainians) are the same the natives of the Crimea as Crimean Tatars (and of course native to Crimea as Mexican mestizos are native to Mexico)

    Or maybe the fate of Crimea should be resolved by the Ossetians (the direct descendants of the Scythians)?

    No kidding. By that logic would should be done to American Southerners?
     
    White southerners - same level natives of the Southern United States, as black southerners. But Redskins certainly more "native".
    Similarly, Russian and Tatar equally natives of Crimea. And the Greeks are more native than Russian or Tatar

    However what does this have to do with the rights? You want to give America to the Indians, and Israel - to the Arabs?

    At least a hundred years Russian largest ethnic group in Crimea.

    Correct. Good thing I never disputed this.

    I wrote this about Crimea: “Because a place whose Russian majority is only 70 years old and is due to the mass deportation of the actual natives, is equivalent to a place whose majority population actually consists of the indigenous inhabitants.”

    In 1917 41.2% Russian, 28.7 % of the Crimean Tatars in 1939 at 49.6 % Russian, 19.4% of the Crimean Tatars. In 2014, 68% of Russians and 12% Tatars.

    And in 1897, 33.1% Russians and 35.6% Tatars.

    Without the destruction of Russian by the Germans (and Tatar collaborationists) and without a deportation (in response) Tatars, the demographics of Crimea would be about the same.

    So a little bit less than 50% Russian?

    In 1939 there were 558,481 Russians in Crimea. In 1959 there were 858,273 Russians in Crimea. And zero Tatars. Looks like German destruction of Russians in Crimea didn’t lower the Russian population there. But the Soviet destruction of Tatars eliminated the Tatar population.

    Sorry if math is bad for you.

    It is not – it confirms what I have written and shows that you are wrong, as usual.

    Well modern Russian is formed as a mixture of proto-Slavs with the Scythians and Alans (the ancient inhabitants of the Crimea)

    And Finns.

    Are those Scythians and Alans Crimean ones, or rather those who settled in the steppes north of Crimea and mixed with the pro-Slav around those parts.

    later Russian (near black sea) assimilate the part of the local Greeks and the last Ostrogoths (both ethnos – Orthodox)

    Is this the kind of nonsense Russian svidomists are now learning in the Russian schools?

    Most of the Ostrogoths were assimilated by Tatars at the latest in the 17th century, long before Russians got there. Some visitors in the 1780s claimed they may have seen some Goths but these stories are like people seeing Welshmen among Indians in North America in 1800. The most detailed record of their speech comes not from when Russia annexed Crimea in 1780s but from a traveler in the 1560s.

    Catherine II deported the almost all the Crimean Greeks to the north shore of the Azov Sea in the 18th century.

    So, no significant Gothic or Greek descent among the Russian colonists.

    In contrast, Crimean Tatars are 40%-45% Asian (who invaded in the 14th century) and the rest – native, who had been there for thousands of years.

    Similarly, Russian and Tatar equally natives of Crimea.

    Nonsense, see above.

    However what does this have to do with the rights? You want to give America to the Indians, and Israel – to the Arabs?

    Jews were in Israel before Arabs. Crimean Tatars in Crimea before Russians. Most of America has been over 50% European for 200 years. Crimea Russian, for only 70 years. USA is .8% Native American. Crimea is 11% native Tatar. It’s a silly comparison.

    Read More
    • Replies: @reiner Tor

    Crimean Tatars are 40%-45% Asian (who invaded in the 14th century) and the rest – native, who had been there for thousands of years.
     
    But is it certain that all European/Caucasoid ancestry of the Tatars is coming from the locals? I thought the “Tatars” themselves were a mixture of a large number of tribes, many of which were Eastern European nomads - this latter category included predominantly European groups.
    , @melanf

    Without the destruction of Russian by the Germans (and Tatar collaborationists) and without a deportation (in response) Tatars, the demographics of Crimea would be about the same.
    So a little bit less than 50% Russian?
     
    In a hypothetical alternate universe (where world history went without the destruction of Russian by the Germans (and Tatar collaborationists) and without a deportation (in response) Tatars) the demographics of Crimea appears pretty much as it is today. The Russian population moved to the Crimea (for its climate), and some of the Tatars went to Moscow, Leningrad, Sochi etc. Additionally, the proliferation of intermarriage will lead to assimilation. The share of Russian (and Ukrainian) population (in population of Crimea) would be increased, and the share of the Tatar would fall (a trend which was observed before 1941). In the end, the result would be something like today..

    In 1939 there were 558,481 Russians in Crimea. In 1959 there were 858,273 Russians in Crimea. And zero Tatars. Looks like German destruction of Russians in Crimea didn’t lower the Russian population there.
    But the Soviet destruction of Tatars eliminated the Tatar population.
     
    Because the Russian won, and the Germans (and their Tatar servants) lost


    Well modern Russian is formed as a mixture of proto-Slavs with the Scythians and Alans (the ancient inhabitants of the Crimea)

     

    Are those Scythians and Alans Crimean ones, or rather those who settled in the steppes north of Crimea and mixed with the pro-Slav around those parts.
     
    Yes Crimean ones. Nomads roamed for thousands of years of history across the steppes, including the Crimea - they didn't have a permanent site as sedentary agriculturalists (of course different tribes of nomads had "their" land for roam, but these land changing quickly over the centuries)


    later Russian (near black sea) assimilate the part of the local Greeks and the last Ostrogoths (both ethnos – Orthodox)
     
    Is this the kind of nonsense Russian svidomists are now learning in the Russian schools?
    Most of the Ostrogoths were assimilated by Tatars at the latest in the 17th century,
     
    Is this the kind of nonsense Ucrainian svidomists are now learning in the Ucrainian schools?
    Orthodox Goths were assimilated by the Orthodox population of the Crimea (but not Muslims). Later this population was partially assimilated by the Orthodox Russians (and Ukrainians).

    In contrast, Crimean Tatars are 40%-45% Asian
     
    You see, from your "genetic" point of view (I don't share this point of viev, but let's use it), the Tatars have no rights in Europe (and in European Crimea) versus 100% Russian European or 90% European Ukrainians. It is confirms what I have written and shows that you are wrong, as usual.

    From my point of view, Russian and Tatar equally natives of Crimea, because at the time of formation of the Crimean Tatars, the Russian population were already present in Crimea
    From your "genetic" point of view Tatars - migrants everywhere in Europe (including the Crimea).



    However what does this have to do with the rights? You want to give America to the Indians, and Israel – to the Arabs?
     
    Jews were in Israel before Arabs. Crimean Tatars in Crimea before Russians. Most of America has been over 50% European for 200 years. Crimea Russian, for only 70 years. USA is .8% Native American. Crimea is 11% native Tatar. It’s a silly comparison.
     
    In Russian it's called "вилять как уж под вилами".
    And by the way, Palestinian Arabs are genetically closer to the Jews of king David than Ashkenazi (descendants of the Romans who converted to Judaism)
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  107. @AP

    At least a hundred years Russian largest ethnic group in Crimea.
     
    Correct. Good thing I never disputed this.

    I wrote this about Crimea: "Because a place whose Russian majority is only 70 years old and is due to the mass deportation of the actual natives, is equivalent to a place whose majority population actually consists of the indigenous inhabitants."

    In 1917 41.2% Russian, 28.7 % of the Crimean Tatars in 1939 at 49.6 % Russian, 19.4% of the Crimean Tatars. In 2014, 68% of Russians and 12% Tatars.
     
    And in 1897, 33.1% Russians and 35.6% Tatars.

    Without the destruction of Russian by the Germans (and Tatar collaborationists) and without a deportation (in response) Tatars, the demographics of Crimea would be about the same.
     
    So a little bit less than 50% Russian?

    In 1939 there were 558,481 Russians in Crimea. In 1959 there were 858,273 Russians in Crimea. And zero Tatars. Looks like German destruction of Russians in Crimea didn't lower the Russian population there. But the Soviet destruction of Tatars eliminated the Tatar population.

    Sorry if math is bad for you.
     
    It is not - it confirms what I have written and shows that you are wrong, as usual.

    Well modern Russian is formed as a mixture of proto-Slavs with the Scythians and Alans (the ancient inhabitants of the Crimea)
     
    And Finns.

    Are those Scythians and Alans Crimean ones, or rather those who settled in the steppes north of Crimea and mixed with the pro-Slav around those parts.

    later Russian (near black sea) assimilate the part of the local Greeks and the last Ostrogoths (both ethnos – Orthodox)
     
    Is this the kind of nonsense Russian svidomists are now learning in the Russian schools?

    Most of the Ostrogoths were assimilated by Tatars at the latest in the 17th century, long before Russians got there. Some visitors in the 1780s claimed they may have seen some Goths but these stories are like people seeing Welshmen among Indians in North America in 1800. The most detailed record of their speech comes not from when Russia annexed Crimea in 1780s but from a traveler in the 1560s.

    Catherine II deported the almost all the Crimean Greeks to the north shore of the Azov Sea in the 18th century.

    So, no significant Gothic or Greek descent among the Russian colonists.

    In contrast, Crimean Tatars are 40%-45% Asian (who invaded in the 14th century) and the rest - native, who had been there for thousands of years.

    Similarly, Russian and Tatar equally natives of Crimea.
     
    Nonsense, see above.

    However what does this have to do with the rights? You want to give America to the Indians, and Israel – to the Arabs?
     
    Jews were in Israel before Arabs. Crimean Tatars in Crimea before Russians. Most of America has been over 50% European for 200 years. Crimea Russian, for only 70 years. USA is .8% Native American. Crimea is 11% native Tatar. It's a silly comparison.

    Crimean Tatars are 40%-45% Asian (who invaded in the 14th century) and the rest – native, who had been there for thousands of years.

    But is it certain that all European/Caucasoid ancestry of the Tatars is coming from the locals? I thought the “Tatars” themselves were a mixture of a large number of tribes, many of which were Eastern European nomads – this latter category included predominantly European groups.

    Read More
    • Replies: @AP
    Here's one full-blooded Crimean Tatar's DNA results:

    http://www.iccrimea.org/reports/genographic-results.html

    28% Northern Asian
    22% Northern European
    20% Southwest Asian (Middle East)
    20% Mediterranean
    7% Southeast Asian
    2% Native American

    "Northern Asian" and "Native American (presumably Siberian) reflect "invader" Tatar descent. Mediterranean is clearly native (Greek). Northern European is probably Gothic/native. Southwest Asian could be native also (Alanic).
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  108. @Greasy William

    both of which had populations favorably predisposed to a Russian alliance – quite unlike the Hungarian population
     
    This is a surprise to me, given how pro Russia Jobbik is. Does Jobbik's pro Russia position hurt them electorally?

    I don’t know. I don’t like Jobbik much anyway, but they are not totally pro-Russia, for example I think they still want to remove the Soviet “liberation” memorial from the downtown in Budapest.

    Most people don’t think about Russia too much, it’s not an important issue. For example before 2008 the then leftist prime minister Gyurcsány was all chummy with Putin, and Orbán criticized it. Then Orbán came to power and at first tried to coordinate with the Poles, who at the time weren’t too enthusiastic and decided to make a separate gas import deal with Putin. So after some hesitation he turned to Putin to repair ties (in 2008 Orbán publicly supported Saakashvili!), and slowly it became the “friendship” that you can see now.

    Now Fidesz voters loudly criticized Gyurcsány’s Putin friendship, while leftist voters either defended it or just stayed silent on the issue. Now it’s leftist voters who denounce Orbán as “Putin’s poodle”, while his voters either avoid the topic or actively defend it. The vast majority don’t think much about Russia, which is seen as a far away country.

    Read More
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  109. AP says:
    @reiner Tor

    Crimean Tatars are 40%-45% Asian (who invaded in the 14th century) and the rest – native, who had been there for thousands of years.
     
    But is it certain that all European/Caucasoid ancestry of the Tatars is coming from the locals? I thought the “Tatars” themselves were a mixture of a large number of tribes, many of which were Eastern European nomads - this latter category included predominantly European groups.

    Here’s one full-blooded Crimean Tatar’s DNA results:

    http://www.iccrimea.org/reports/genographic-results.html

    28% Northern Asian
    22% Northern European
    20% Southwest Asian (Middle East)
    20% Mediterranean
    7% Southeast Asian
    2% Native American

    “Northern Asian” and “Native American (presumably Siberian) reflect “invader” Tatar descent. Mediterranean is clearly native (Greek). Northern European is probably Gothic/native. Southwest Asian could be native also (Alanic).

    Read More
    • Replies: @LondonBob
    If I had to choose between 500k Christian Nigerians or 500k Tatar Muslims settling in Britain, I would go for the Tatars every time.
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  110. @AP
    Russia is less unpopular in Hungary than in most European countries, but still unpopular there:

    http://www.pewglobal.org/2017/08/16/publics-worldwide-unfavorable-toward-putin-russia/

    48% of Hungarians view Russia unfavorably, 39% favorably. This is the best ratio for Russia in Europe, other than in Greece.

    For Poland these figures are 69% and 21%, respectively.

    For both countries, Putin is more disliked than is Russia.

    It might be the result that the leftist voters were always more favorable toward Russia, and now that Orbán started closer relations with it, it probably helped Russia’s image among rightist voters more than it did damage among leftists.

    Read More
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  111. @AP

    At least in the case of Hungary, the poz is growing
     
    At a faster rate than in Russia? This certainly isn't reflected in Hungary's electoral politics. Is there a groundswell of support for Muslim immigration in Hungary that we don't know about?

    Soros’s university has had a gender studies department for a long time. Last year it was opened in a big state university. Leftist voters are getting totally pro-refugee and perceive Orbán as either a Nazi or (more often) as someone who cynically exploits race hatred and openly engages in Nazi propaganda.

    Meanwhile, it turned out that a lot of people on the right are also not totally on board with Orbán’s stance and would like him to tone it down. Not to mention the churches, and the church is even worse in Poland.

    Fidesz is not using intellectual arguments, they engage in lowbrow propaganda (even rightist intellectuals dislike it), which is all okay as long as they win elections and they themselves are opposed to accepting refugees. But Orbán won’t live forever, and it’s not a certainty what his successor will do. I wouldn’t bet my house on it.

    What is sure is that the pressure from the EU will continue, and it will always be easier for Hungarian leaders to just cave in. People don’t quite understand the issue, so don’t think that the resistance to refugees is all bottom up. It’s mostly just because of Orbán.

    Read More
    • Agree: Anatoly Karlin
    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    There was a rape hysteria in universities with Orbán fully supporting it (the usual feminist-conservative alliance on the issue).
    , @AP

    Not to mention the churches, and the church is even worse in Poland.
     
    I'm not so sure:

    https://www.apnews.com/ae55faffad0f4b51aeef57dbe4a9bf97
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  112. @reiner Tor
    Soros’s university has had a gender studies department for a long time. Last year it was opened in a big state university. Leftist voters are getting totally pro-refugee and perceive Orbán as either a Nazi or (more often) as someone who cynically exploits race hatred and openly engages in Nazi propaganda.

    Meanwhile, it turned out that a lot of people on the right are also not totally on board with Orbán’s stance and would like him to tone it down. Not to mention the churches, and the church is even worse in Poland.

    Fidesz is not using intellectual arguments, they engage in lowbrow propaganda (even rightist intellectuals dislike it), which is all okay as long as they win elections and they themselves are opposed to accepting refugees. But Orbán won’t live forever, and it’s not a certainty what his successor will do. I wouldn’t bet my house on it.

    What is sure is that the pressure from the EU will continue, and it will always be easier for Hungarian leaders to just cave in. People don’t quite understand the issue, so don’t think that the resistance to refugees is all bottom up. It’s mostly just because of Orbán.

    There was a rape hysteria in universities with Orbán fully supporting it (the usual feminist-conservative alliance on the issue).

    Read More
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  113. Mr. Hack says:
    @Pavlo
    Oh but you have betrayed the Ukrainian cause, shirker. Your shameful failure to answer the call to arms is your betrayal - Zradnik I name you, now and forever.

    You and the other diaspora blowhards would rather live easy lives in America or Europe than risk your necks for what you claim to believe. Shall I tell you something else? That's true of most 'Ukrainian patriots' in the old country as well .

    Zradnik I name you, now and forever.

    Oh my, oh my, I’ve been outed by the great, mental defect ‘Pavlo’ :-)

    By the way Pavlo, you haven’t explained yet why you go by the Ukrainian spelling of your name instead of the Russian spelling? Some sort of ethnic schizophrenia, old boy??…

    Read More
    • Replies: @Pavlo
    'Old boy' - bloody Mary, the Orc thinks he's Julian Fellowes.

    You know, instead of asking silly questions you could always get yourself to the combat zone - one of the volunteer gangs is bound to take you on.

    Think about it - you could video-blog your adventures, raise awareness of the struggle. You could even sell the movie rights: 'Saving Private Mudak' has got a nice ring to it.
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  114. Pavlo says:
    @AP
    I suspect not a single Russian patriot in this discussion, served either.

    the Ukrainian will do anything for his dead gay country except fight for it.
     
    Is this a subtle way of saying Ukrainians and Russians are the same people?

    Come now, it was your lot that claimed the whole of the ‘civilised world’ was menaced by ‘Russian aggression’ – if the gulf between your rhetoric and your actions makes you look foolish that’s your responsibility.

    Read More
    • Replies: @AP

    Come now, it was your lot that claimed the whole of the ‘civilised world’ was menaced by ‘Russian aggression’
     
    Yet more projection. Your lot claimed Ukraine was taken over by Zionazis or Anglozionists or whatever, threatening the very heart of Russia.

    Why weren't you fighting this global threat, Pavlo? The militias in Donbas were/are hiring.

    I've been consistent in saying the loss of urban Donbas has been great for Ukraine. But you have lost the "mother of Russian cities." Your people were "massacred" in Odessa. Nazis are marching with torches in Kiev. There was a coup against a democratically elected President. And yet you sit on your ass. Why, Pavlo, do you do that when your people are dying?

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  115. Pavlo says:
    @Mr. Hack

    Zradnik I name you, now and forever.
     
    Oh my, oh my, I've been outed by the great, mental defect 'Pavlo' :-)

    By the way Pavlo, you haven't explained yet why you go by the Ukrainian spelling of your name instead of the Russian spelling? Some sort of ethnic schizophrenia, old boy??...

    ‘Old boy’ – bloody Mary, the Orc thinks he’s Julian Fellowes.

    You know, instead of asking silly questions you could always get yourself to the combat zone – one of the volunteer gangs is bound to take you on.

    Think about it – you could video-blog your adventures, raise awareness of the struggle. You could even sell the movie rights: ‘Saving Private Mudak’ has got a nice ring to it.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Mr. Hack

    You could even sell the movie rights: ‘Saving Private Mudak’ has got a nice ring to it.
     
    I'm more interested in psychological thrillers, and might consider an ethno-biography exploring how a nice Russian boy named 'Pavel' got hastily conscripted by a Chechen warlord to join a rag tag 'NovoRosijan' liberating force, to fight a bunch of Ukro-Nazis' in the Donbas conflict, and ended up getting his brains scrambled in the process. He now thinks that he's actually a Ukrainian:

    'How Pavel became Pavlo'

    How a Russian lad lost his identity in the Donbas, and turned on Mother Russia and Father Putler

     

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  116. LondonBob says:
    @AP
    Here's one full-blooded Crimean Tatar's DNA results:

    http://www.iccrimea.org/reports/genographic-results.html

    28% Northern Asian
    22% Northern European
    20% Southwest Asian (Middle East)
    20% Mediterranean
    7% Southeast Asian
    2% Native American

    "Northern Asian" and "Native American (presumably Siberian) reflect "invader" Tatar descent. Mediterranean is clearly native (Greek). Northern European is probably Gothic/native. Southwest Asian could be native also (Alanic).

    If I had to choose between 500k Christian Nigerians or 500k Tatar Muslims settling in Britain, I would go for the Tatars every time.

    Read More
    • Replies: @AP
    Because Tatars are secularized and not troublesome. What about Chechens? Algerians?
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  117. AP says:
    @reiner Tor
    Soros’s university has had a gender studies department for a long time. Last year it was opened in a big state university. Leftist voters are getting totally pro-refugee and perceive Orbán as either a Nazi or (more often) as someone who cynically exploits race hatred and openly engages in Nazi propaganda.

    Meanwhile, it turned out that a lot of people on the right are also not totally on board with Orbán’s stance and would like him to tone it down. Not to mention the churches, and the church is even worse in Poland.

    Fidesz is not using intellectual arguments, they engage in lowbrow propaganda (even rightist intellectuals dislike it), which is all okay as long as they win elections and they themselves are opposed to accepting refugees. But Orbán won’t live forever, and it’s not a certainty what his successor will do. I wouldn’t bet my house on it.

    What is sure is that the pressure from the EU will continue, and it will always be easier for Hungarian leaders to just cave in. People don’t quite understand the issue, so don’t think that the resistance to refugees is all bottom up. It’s mostly just because of Orbán.

    Not to mention the churches, and the church is even worse in Poland.

    I’m not so sure:

    https://www.apnews.com/ae55faffad0f4b51aeef57dbe4a9bf97

    Read More
    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    I meant things like this. Unfortunately the same thing is happening in Hungary, but at least the archbishops haven’t weighed in yet, only some bishops and priests. So maybe the Hungarian hierarchy is not so cucked on the highest levels. I’m afraid Pope Francis will live long enough to promote more cucked bishops and archbishops.
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  118. AP says:
    @LondonBob
    If I had to choose between 500k Christian Nigerians or 500k Tatar Muslims settling in Britain, I would go for the Tatars every time.

    Because Tatars are secularized and not troublesome. What about Chechens? Algerians?

    Read More
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  119. AP says:
    @Pavlo
    Come now, it was your lot that claimed the whole of the 'civilised world' was menaced by 'Russian aggression' - if the gulf between your rhetoric and your actions makes you look foolish that's your responsibility.

    Come now, it was your lot that claimed the whole of the ‘civilised world’ was menaced by ‘Russian aggression’

    Yet more projection. Your lot claimed Ukraine was taken over by Zionazis or Anglozionists or whatever, threatening the very heart of Russia.

    Why weren’t you fighting this global threat, Pavlo? The militias in Donbas were/are hiring.

    I’ve been consistent in saying the loss of urban Donbas has been great for Ukraine. But you have lost the “mother of Russian cities.” Your people were “massacred” in Odessa. Nazis are marching with torches in Kiev. There was a coup against a democratically elected President. And yet you sit on your ass. Why, Pavlo, do you do that when your people are dying?

    Read More
    • Agree: Mr. Hack
    • Replies: @Pavlo
    Doctor, you're the nationalist here, not I. The Ukraine and the Ukrainians are a gaggle of cretinous servants who've exploited the master's absence to rob his liquor cabinet. That's the Ukrainian 'threat'. The DNR is scarcely less of a clownshow, but since it's probably even more Ukrainian in composition than the Kiev regime nobody should have expected anything else.

    You're the one who - apparently - promotes a failed cause for a living. All I wish to do is remind you and your dim-witted homunculus that all the shit you type is not only risible, but meaningless until you set aside your keyboard and take up the gun.

    Go on, it's not difficult!

    1. Plane ticket to Kiev.

    2. Connecting flight to Mariupol.

    3. Walk east until you get shot.
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  120. @AP

    Not to mention the churches, and the church is even worse in Poland.
     
    I'm not so sure:

    https://www.apnews.com/ae55faffad0f4b51aeef57dbe4a9bf97

    I meant things like this. Unfortunately the same thing is happening in Hungary, but at least the archbishops haven’t weighed in yet, only some bishops and priests. So maybe the Hungarian hierarchy is not so cucked on the highest levels. I’m afraid Pope Francis will live long enough to promote more cucked bishops and archbishops.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Greasy William
    The entire Church is cucked. Our Bishops in America are against gay marriage and abortion but they are the biggest promoters of immigrants you will ever find. Although mostly they just promote Catholic immigrants from Latin America and basically ignore non Catholic immigrants.
    , @German_reader
    I had read about that archbishop and his threat to suspend priests who participate in anti-migration protests as well...imo the Polish right is making a grave mistake in tying its national identity to the Catholic church to such an extreme degree. The Catholic church in Europe today is one of the biggest promoters of mass immigration, and Poland won't escape those subversive trends forever.

    EDIT: Sorry, seems you referred to a separate story from what I was thinking about...but my basic point remains.

    , @German_reader

    I’m afraid Pope Francis will live long enough to promote more cucked bishops and archbishops.
     
    We can only hope that Bergoglio will die soon enough (I wouldn't be sorry if someone helped with that). It might actually be better if his successor was an African or some other non-white...I don't follow Catholic church politics much, but cardinal Peter Turkson seems to have made at least somewhat sensible comments about migration. And if we get some African pope pushing for mass immigration, it would at least be easier to criticize this as motivated by racial feeling.
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  121. @reiner Tor
    I meant things like this. Unfortunately the same thing is happening in Hungary, but at least the archbishops haven’t weighed in yet, only some bishops and priests. So maybe the Hungarian hierarchy is not so cucked on the highest levels. I’m afraid Pope Francis will live long enough to promote more cucked bishops and archbishops.

    The entire Church is cucked. Our Bishops in America are against gay marriage and abortion but they are the biggest promoters of immigrants you will ever find. Although mostly they just promote Catholic immigrants from Latin America and basically ignore non Catholic immigrants.

    Read More
    • Replies: @German_reader

    Although mostly they just promote Catholic immigrants from Latin America and basically ignore non Catholic immigrants.
     
    It's worse in Europe, there are large segments of the Church that are actually pro-Islamic...a non-trivial number of Christians seem to regard Islam as a potential ally against secularism.
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  122. Mr. Hack says:
    @Pavlo
    'Old boy' - bloody Mary, the Orc thinks he's Julian Fellowes.

    You know, instead of asking silly questions you could always get yourself to the combat zone - one of the volunteer gangs is bound to take you on.

    Think about it - you could video-blog your adventures, raise awareness of the struggle. You could even sell the movie rights: 'Saving Private Mudak' has got a nice ring to it.

    You could even sell the movie rights: ‘Saving Private Mudak’ has got a nice ring to it.

    I’m more interested in psychological thrillers, and might consider an ethno-biography exploring how a nice Russian boy named ‘Pavel’ got hastily conscripted by a Chechen warlord to join a rag tag ‘NovoRosijan’ liberating force, to fight a bunch of Ukro-Nazis’ in the Donbas conflict, and ended up getting his brains scrambled in the process. He now thinks that he’s actually a Ukrainian:

    ‘How Pavel became Pavlo’

    How a Russian lad lost his identity in the Donbas, and turned on Mother Russia and Father Putler

    Read More
    • Replies: @gerad
    I prefer the psychological thriller about another Pavlo....the dickhead who is the Ukrainian FM.....not fit enough to even clean the shoes of the master Sergei Lavrov. Klimkin has none of the skills required to be a diplomat, has no succesful results to speak of.....and has his father in law safely tucked away in Crimea refusing to return to Ukraine.

    Another psychological thriller, far more amusing , could be on the Ukro-Nazi scumbag army.....reliant on oligarchs ( I thought they were supposed to get rid of them not be even more reliant on them?) ...AND on loans from the IMF to be barely operable, infected with corruption, unable to beat a bunch of miners,.......and are riven with abnormally high suicide rates.....each one ashamed of what a weak, murderer of civilians POS they have become.
    , @Pavlo
    Jeez Wayne, even your trash talk is weak.

    I'd tell you to stick to your day job, but evidently this it, so never mind.
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  123. @reiner Tor
    I meant things like this. Unfortunately the same thing is happening in Hungary, but at least the archbishops haven’t weighed in yet, only some bishops and priests. So maybe the Hungarian hierarchy is not so cucked on the highest levels. I’m afraid Pope Francis will live long enough to promote more cucked bishops and archbishops.

    I had read about that archbishop and his threat to suspend priests who participate in anti-migration protests as well…imo the Polish right is making a grave mistake in tying its national identity to the Catholic church to such an extreme degree. The Catholic church in Europe today is one of the biggest promoters of mass immigration, and Poland won’t escape those subversive trends forever.

    EDIT: Sorry, seems you referred to a separate story from what I was thinking about…but my basic point remains.

    Read More
    • Replies: @AP

    I had read about that archbishop and his threat to suspend priests who participate in anti-migration protests as well
     
    This isn't universal among Polish Church hierarchs:

    The Archbishop of Krakow, Marek Jedraszewski, who sits in the former chair of Karol Wojtyla, presided over the rosary recitation, calling on the faithful to “pray for Europe to remain Christian to save its culture.”
    , @reiner Tor

    seems you referred to a separate story
     
    I wanted to refer to the story you referred to, but couldn't find it with a quick search, so decided to link the other, which equally proves my point regarding the poz with the Church.
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  124. @Greasy William
    The entire Church is cucked. Our Bishops in America are against gay marriage and abortion but they are the biggest promoters of immigrants you will ever find. Although mostly they just promote Catholic immigrants from Latin America and basically ignore non Catholic immigrants.

    Although mostly they just promote Catholic immigrants from Latin America and basically ignore non Catholic immigrants.

    It’s worse in Europe, there are large segments of the Church that are actually pro-Islamic…a non-trivial number of Christians seem to regard Islam as a potential ally against secularism.

    Read More
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  125. @reiner Tor
    I meant things like this. Unfortunately the same thing is happening in Hungary, but at least the archbishops haven’t weighed in yet, only some bishops and priests. So maybe the Hungarian hierarchy is not so cucked on the highest levels. I’m afraid Pope Francis will live long enough to promote more cucked bishops and archbishops.

    I’m afraid Pope Francis will live long enough to promote more cucked bishops and archbishops.

    We can only hope that Bergoglio will die soon enough (I wouldn’t be sorry if someone helped with that). It might actually be better if his successor was an African or some other non-white…I don’t follow Catholic church politics much, but cardinal Peter Turkson seems to have made at least somewhat sensible comments about migration. And if we get some African pope pushing for mass immigration, it would at least be easier to criticize this as motivated by racial feeling.

    Read More
    • Replies: @AP

    It might actually be better if his successor was an African or some other non-white
     
    African Christians tend to be much more anti-Islam than are western Europeans.
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  126. AP says:
    @German_reader
    I had read about that archbishop and his threat to suspend priests who participate in anti-migration protests as well...imo the Polish right is making a grave mistake in tying its national identity to the Catholic church to such an extreme degree. The Catholic church in Europe today is one of the biggest promoters of mass immigration, and Poland won't escape those subversive trends forever.

    EDIT: Sorry, seems you referred to a separate story from what I was thinking about...but my basic point remains.

    I had read about that archbishop and his threat to suspend priests who participate in anti-migration protests as well

    This isn’t universal among Polish Church hierarchs:

    The Archbishop of Krakow, Marek Jedraszewski, who sits in the former chair of Karol Wojtyla, presided over the rosary recitation, calling on the faithful to “pray for Europe to remain Christian to save its culture.”

    Read More
    • Replies: @German_reader

    The Archbishop of Krakow, Marek Jedraszewski, who sits in the former chair of Karol Wojtyla, presided over the rosary recitation, calling on the faithful to “pray for Europe to remain Christian to save its culture.”
     
    The problem with this is that a non-trivial number of Catholics - including the highest levels of the hierarchy - would claim that to be truly Christian one has to welcome "refugees" and be ready to endure the self-sacrifice this entails (which would be a small price to pay anyway, given that we're only talking about earthly matters).
    We get a lot of this in Germany, e.g. justifications of Merkel's open borders madness with the Sermon on the mount, and with opposition to it being presented as heathenism (maybe in the spirit of the Nazis?). This may be especially pronounced in Germany, but I think it would be naive to believe similar trends won't affect Poland and other countries in East Central Europe.
    , @reiner Tor
    Yes, but it's a problem enough. In Hungary the archbishops don't speak to much on the topic (though I think the Conference of Catholic Bishops has also criticized anti-refugee sentiment very mildly, which means that the highest levels of the Church in Hungary are at least somewhat opposed to Orbán's lowbrow propaganda campaign; on the other hand, the primitiveness of the campaign might have forced their hands to at least mildly criticize it), but unfortunately there are at least a couple of bishops who have condemned it with stronger words. (They, too, have refrained from personally criticizing the premier by name, especially since he's a Calvinist.)

    I would be quite happy if the Church took a firmer stance against the poz. Their job is to protect the flock, and not egging it to be accepting of wolves.

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  127. AP says:
    @German_reader

    I’m afraid Pope Francis will live long enough to promote more cucked bishops and archbishops.
     
    We can only hope that Bergoglio will die soon enough (I wouldn't be sorry if someone helped with that). It might actually be better if his successor was an African or some other non-white...I don't follow Catholic church politics much, but cardinal Peter Turkson seems to have made at least somewhat sensible comments about migration. And if we get some African pope pushing for mass immigration, it would at least be easier to criticize this as motivated by racial feeling.

    It might actually be better if his successor was an African or some other non-white

    African Christians tend to be much more anti-Islam than are western Europeans.

    Read More
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  128. @German_reader
    I had read about that archbishop and his threat to suspend priests who participate in anti-migration protests as well...imo the Polish right is making a grave mistake in tying its national identity to the Catholic church to such an extreme degree. The Catholic church in Europe today is one of the biggest promoters of mass immigration, and Poland won't escape those subversive trends forever.

    EDIT: Sorry, seems you referred to a separate story from what I was thinking about...but my basic point remains.

    seems you referred to a separate story

    I wanted to refer to the story you referred to, but couldn’t find it with a quick search, so decided to link the other, which equally proves my point regarding the poz with the Church.

    Read More
    • Replies: @German_reader
    I found this:
    http://www.breitbart.com/london/2017/10/19/polish-archbishop-threatens-suspend-anti-immigrant-priest/

    (ok, it's Breitbart which generally isn't very credible...but the basic content seems to be correct).

    Taken by themselves the words of that archbishop aren't totally unreasonable imo...but in context they're rather ominous imo.
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  129. @AP

    I had read about that archbishop and his threat to suspend priests who participate in anti-migration protests as well
     
    This isn't universal among Polish Church hierarchs:

    The Archbishop of Krakow, Marek Jedraszewski, who sits in the former chair of Karol Wojtyla, presided over the rosary recitation, calling on the faithful to “pray for Europe to remain Christian to save its culture.”

    The Archbishop of Krakow, Marek Jedraszewski, who sits in the former chair of Karol Wojtyla, presided over the rosary recitation, calling on the faithful to “pray for Europe to remain Christian to save its culture.”

    The problem with this is that a non-trivial number of Catholics – including the highest levels of the hierarchy – would claim that to be truly Christian one has to welcome “refugees” and be ready to endure the self-sacrifice this entails (which would be a small price to pay anyway, given that we’re only talking about earthly matters).
    We get a lot of this in Germany, e.g. justifications of Merkel’s open borders madness with the Sermon on the mount, and with opposition to it being presented as heathenism (maybe in the spirit of the Nazis?). This may be especially pronounced in Germany, but I think it would be naive to believe similar trends won’t affect Poland and other countries in East Central Europe.

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    • Replies: @AP
    Okay, but this Polish archbishop presided over the rosary at the borders demonstration, which was considered to be anti-Muslim. So it looks like the masses of priests as well as at least some hierarchs oppose Muslim migration, while the head of Poland's Church supports it (though even he says - with certain measures to promote safety). I don't think one can conclude that Poland's Church is a force for Muslim migration.
    , @Anon
    It really is not catholic but I think there is manipulation of language and of sentiment with a specific political aim (partly by the hierarchy). This lack of clarity in terms is certainly not catholic. Do current labels (refugees) conform to actual reality? Mislabeling an enemy/infiltrator as immigrant/guest is a serious mistake that injures both the common good and individual citizens. And let’s not forget prudence is the first of the virtues.

    Here’s the immediately relevant passages of the Catechism, if you care to dive in:

    224 “The more prosperous nations are obliged, to the extent they are able, to welcome the foreigner in search of the security and the means of livelihood which he cannot find in his country of origin. Public authorities should see to it that the natural right is respected that places a guest under the protection of those who receive him.

    Political authorities, for the sake of the common good for which they are responsible, may make the exercise of the right to immigrate subject to various juridical conditions,especially with regard to the immigrants’ duties toward their country of adoption. Immigrants are obliged to respect with gratitude the material and spiritual heritage of the country that receives them, to obey its laws and to assist in carrying civic burdens.

    2242 The citizen is obliged in conscience not to follow the directives of civil authorities when they are contrary to the demands of the moral order, to the fundamental rights of persons or the teachings of the Gospel. Refusing obedience to civil authorities, when their demands are contrary to those of an upright conscience, finds its justification in the distinction between serving God and serving the political community. “Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s.”48 “We must obey God rather than men”:49

    When citizens are under the oppression of a public authority which oversteps its competence, they should still not refuse to give or to do what is objectively demanded of them by the common good; but it is legitimate for them to defend their own rights and those of their fellow citizens against the abuse of this authority within the limits of the natural law and the Law of the Gospel.50

    Cardinal Sarah, labeled as "orthodox catholic" by the liberal side, already spoke out saying countries have the right to distinguish between economic migrants and refugees. Poland's bishops are solidly catholic, that simply means they see massive Muslim influx for what it really means. Apparently the rosary thing is catching on in Ireland. We'll see.
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  130. @reiner Tor

    seems you referred to a separate story
     
    I wanted to refer to the story you referred to, but couldn't find it with a quick search, so decided to link the other, which equally proves my point regarding the poz with the Church.

    I found this:

    http://www.breitbart.com/london/2017/10/19/polish-archbishop-threatens-suspend-anti-immigrant-priest/

    (ok, it’s Breitbart which generally isn’t very credible…but the basic content seems to be correct).

    Taken by themselves the words of that archbishop aren’t totally unreasonable imo…but in context they’re rather ominous imo.

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    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    I don't have time to search now, but I also remember having read that news story in a Hungarian language liberal outlet (they were quite happy about it), so Breitbart or not, I'm quite sure it did happen.
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  131. @AP

    I had read about that archbishop and his threat to suspend priests who participate in anti-migration protests as well
     
    This isn't universal among Polish Church hierarchs:

    The Archbishop of Krakow, Marek Jedraszewski, who sits in the former chair of Karol Wojtyla, presided over the rosary recitation, calling on the faithful to “pray for Europe to remain Christian to save its culture.”

    Yes, but it’s a problem enough. In Hungary the archbishops don’t speak to much on the topic (though I think the Conference of Catholic Bishops has also criticized anti-refugee sentiment very mildly, which means that the highest levels of the Church in Hungary are at least somewhat opposed to Orbán’s lowbrow propaganda campaign; on the other hand, the primitiveness of the campaign might have forced their hands to at least mildly criticize it), but unfortunately there are at least a couple of bishops who have condemned it with stronger words. (They, too, have refrained from personally criticizing the premier by name, especially since he’s a Calvinist.)

    I would be quite happy if the Church took a firmer stance against the poz. Their job is to protect the flock, and not egging it to be accepting of wolves.

    Read More
    • Replies: @The Big Red Scary
    I’m confused about the use of the word “poz”. I thought it came from gay “culture”, meaning sympathy for people who are HIV positive, maybe even to the degree of having sex with them, and that right-wingers used it to disapprove of the “celebration” of LGBTQXYZ. Surely here it is being used more broadly? I mean, Anglicans, sure, but Hungarian Catholics!?

    By the way, what exactly do right-wing atheists, as opposed to conservative religious people, have against the poz in the above sense? Is it just “icky”?
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  132. @German_reader
    I found this:
    http://www.breitbart.com/london/2017/10/19/polish-archbishop-threatens-suspend-anti-immigrant-priest/

    (ok, it's Breitbart which generally isn't very credible...but the basic content seems to be correct).

    Taken by themselves the words of that archbishop aren't totally unreasonable imo...but in context they're rather ominous imo.

    I don’t have time to search now, but I also remember having read that news story in a Hungarian language liberal outlet (they were quite happy about it), so Breitbart or not, I’m quite sure it did happen.

    Read More
    • Replies: @German_reader
    I read about it originally in German, Breitbart was just the only English-language report I could find right now...yes, it certainly did happen. Admittedly the archbishop did make some qualifications along the lines of "help without being threatened ourselves", and in general there is something to be said for neutrality of priests in political matters. That's a lot more nuanced than what some German prelates have said (like the archbishops of Cologne and Munich with their bizarre "refugees welcome" sermons...sanctimonius scum imo). But still reason for concern.
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  133. @reiner Tor
    I don't have time to search now, but I also remember having read that news story in a Hungarian language liberal outlet (they were quite happy about it), so Breitbart or not, I'm quite sure it did happen.

    I read about it originally in German, Breitbart was just the only English-language report I could find right now…yes, it certainly did happen. Admittedly the archbishop did make some qualifications along the lines of “help without being threatened ourselves”, and in general there is something to be said for neutrality of priests in political matters. That’s a lot more nuanced than what some German prelates have said (like the archbishops of Cologne and Munich with their bizarre “refugees welcome” sermons…sanctimonius scum imo). But still reason for concern.

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  134. I thought Germans had all abandoned religion anyway?

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    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
    (West) Germany is still pretty religious - more so than the UK, France, and even (IIRC) Spain, though less so than Italy.
    , @German_reader
    That's not really correct imo. East Germany is largely (if not totally) irreligious due to the legacy of communism, and of course real belief is quite weak in younger age cohorts (but then atheism seems to be spreading even among millennials in the US). But the churches do retain a lot of influence (which unfortunately they're using for purposes I strongly disapprove of), and there isn't a clear-cut separation of church and state (e.g. in most German states you have religious education as a graded subject in state schools; the state collects church tax for the churches etc.).
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  135. @Greasy William
    I thought Germans had all abandoned religion anyway?

    (West) Germany is still pretty religious – more so than the UK, France, and even (IIRC) Spain, though less so than Italy.

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    • Replies: @AP
    This doesn't separate eastern form western Germany, but overall Germans don't seem to attend church much, which is a good indicator of actual religiosity:

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CtyIX8bVUAAbtGy.jpg
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  136. @Greasy William
    I thought Germans had all abandoned religion anyway?

    That’s not really correct imo. East Germany is largely (if not totally) irreligious due to the legacy of communism, and of course real belief is quite weak in younger age cohorts (but then atheism seems to be spreading even among millennials in the US). But the churches do retain a lot of influence (which unfortunately they’re using for purposes I strongly disapprove of), and there isn’t a clear-cut separation of church and state (e.g. in most German states you have religious education as a graded subject in state schools; the state collects church tax for the churches etc.).

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    • Replies: @utu
    East Germany is largely (if not totally) irreligious due to the legacy of communism

    Yes and no. If East Germans were Catholics perhaps they would have come out from communism stronger like Poles and not weaker. There is something about Protestants that make them to cave in to almost any ideology that surrounds them. In another words Protestants are pretty much useless nowadays, while Catholics still have some steam left despite of the temporary setback, I hope, of having the leftist Jesuit pope.
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  137. @reiner Tor
    Yes, but it's a problem enough. In Hungary the archbishops don't speak to much on the topic (though I think the Conference of Catholic Bishops has also criticized anti-refugee sentiment very mildly, which means that the highest levels of the Church in Hungary are at least somewhat opposed to Orbán's lowbrow propaganda campaign; on the other hand, the primitiveness of the campaign might have forced their hands to at least mildly criticize it), but unfortunately there are at least a couple of bishops who have condemned it with stronger words. (They, too, have refrained from personally criticizing the premier by name, especially since he's a Calvinist.)

    I would be quite happy if the Church took a firmer stance against the poz. Their job is to protect the flock, and not egging it to be accepting of wolves.

    I’m confused about the use of the word “poz”. I thought it came from gay “culture”, meaning sympathy for people who are HIV positive, maybe even to the degree of having sex with them, and that right-wingers used it to disapprove of the “celebration” of LGBTQXYZ. Surely here it is being used more broadly? I mean, Anglicans, sure, but Hungarian Catholics!?

    By the way, what exactly do right-wing atheists, as opposed to conservative religious people, have against the poz in the above sense? Is it just “icky”?

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    • Replies: @German_reader

    By the way, what exactly do right-wing atheists, as opposed to conservative religious people, have against the poz in the above sense?
     
    I'm personally not especially anti-homo (I'm not even totally against some form of official recognition for homosexual partnerships, it's matters like adoption that bother me), but I'd say the segment of homos celebrating "poz", that is people who engage in dangerous sex practices like unprotected anal sex which are conducive to the spread of HIV and various STDs, with frequently changing partners, is just irresponsible and selfish to a disgusting degree...if anything, at least these people are a major burden on the public health system because of their "lifestyle" and its consequences.
    More generally it's hard for me not to get the impression that parts of the LBGT movement are extremely subversive and aim at a radical reconfiguration of society...something like the celebration of "transsexualism" sickens me, it's another attempt by the progressive left to see what they can get away with, how much they can bully and harass other people ("Don't you agree that 2+2=5? Or are you a hater whose life should be destroyed for the sake of tolerance?") and force their bizarre perceptions of reality on the rest of us. At some point this has to be resisted.
    , @reiner Tor
    Poz is the cultural Marxist virus. It mostly aims at the immune system of society, so that it won’t be able to throw out alien bodies. So it’s similar to HIV. Most of the rot that we can see in our societies is not a direct effect of the virus, instead they are opportunistic infections, like black crime or Muslim immigration. But immune system is so fatally weakened that it can no longer handle what should be a fairly easy job.
    , @Anatoly Karlin
    Restoring my comment about poz:

    I need to clarify my position on Poz.

    I oppose the Poz insofar as it is uncompetitive (indeed, it is hard to see how transexualism, or SJWism, or whatever, improve the situation at the individual, the national, or even the global level).

    Should it become competitive I will support it. Indeed, since the more pozzed societies will, in this scenario, win out in the Darwinian/Landian struggle for survival, then the ingredients of its success will no longer be considered to be pozzed by future generations (example: Adopting agriculture was pretty pozzed, since it resulted in the dimunition of height, physical fitness, etc. - the transition of men into bugmen, as #frogtwitter might call it - but in the millennia since, the bugmen won out over the hunter-gatherers).
     
    If SJWs can somehow prove to me that blatant Western-style cultural homosexualism will Make Russia Great Again I'll be off the nearest LGBT parade.
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  138. @The Big Red Scary
    I’m confused about the use of the word “poz”. I thought it came from gay “culture”, meaning sympathy for people who are HIV positive, maybe even to the degree of having sex with them, and that right-wingers used it to disapprove of the “celebration” of LGBTQXYZ. Surely here it is being used more broadly? I mean, Anglicans, sure, but Hungarian Catholics!?

    By the way, what exactly do right-wing atheists, as opposed to conservative religious people, have against the poz in the above sense? Is it just “icky”?

    By the way, what exactly do right-wing atheists, as opposed to conservative religious people, have against the poz in the above sense?

    I’m personally not especially anti-homo (I’m not even totally against some form of official recognition for homosexual partnerships, it’s matters like adoption that bother me), but I’d say the segment of homos celebrating “poz”, that is people who engage in dangerous sex practices like unprotected anal sex which are conducive to the spread of HIV and various STDs, with frequently changing partners, is just irresponsible and selfish to a disgusting degree…if anything, at least these people are a major burden on the public health system because of their “lifestyle” and its consequences.
    More generally it’s hard for me not to get the impression that parts of the LBGT movement are extremely subversive and aim at a radical reconfiguration of society…something like the celebration of “transsexualism” sickens me, it’s another attempt by the progressive left to see what they can get away with, how much they can bully and harass other people (“Don’t you agree that 2+2=5? Or are you a hater whose life should be destroyed for the sake of tolerance?”) and force their bizarre perceptions of reality on the rest of us. At some point this has to be resisted.

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    • Replies: @The Big Red Scary
    “I’m not even totally against some form of official recognition for homosexual partnerships.”

    It seems to me that there is a really easy solution to that problem: governments stop handing out marriage licenses and start handing out civil partnerships between any two consenting adults. Such relationships could even be totally asexual. The point is simply that there should be a way for any two adults to share legal responsibility for each other if they so choose: right of attorney, of inheritance, and so on. Since governments aren’t going to do this, perhaps it can be arranged via blockchain.
    (Completey apart from this, there is old-fashioned marriage in the religious sense, which of course still exists.)

    Of course people having wreckless sexual intercourse is insane, and there is nothing to celebrate about it. As for one being expected in “polite society” to celebrate LGBTQXYZ, I agree it is unreasonable. So far as I can tell, all of these behaviors are the result of neurological abnormality, like autism or schizophrenia. (In fact, they are correlated.) While I am empathetic to neurologically abnormal people, and certainly wish to extend to them the protection of the law, the existence of such abnormality is hardly a reason for rejoicing.
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  139. gerad says:
    @Mr. Hack

    Anatoly’s use of the tired old ‘Putler’ moniker is obviously satirical, dumbass.
     
    Is it? He seems rather critical of Putler lately. The Putler thought police have been harassing and arresting some of Karlin's fellow nationalists on other right wing nationalist sites...

    Is it? He seems rather critical of Putler lately. The Putler thought police have been harassing and arresting some of Karlin’s fellow nationalists on other right wing nationalist sites…

    Americans are always critical of their political structure ,parts of their culture and history….until somebody from another country comments on these flaws….then these same inane Americans will illogically claim their system,culture and history is “perfect” and “exceptional”…and “the only hope for the world”

    Of course Vladimir Vladimirovich, just like Vladimir Volfovitz……. is worth a million Saakashvili’s,Poroshenko,Timoshenko,Yushchenko,Obama,Rooseveld,Clinton and Kuchma’s put together

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    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    I don't see any sense in comparing the relative worth of contemporary Russians with a mixture of Ukrainians and Americans? It is what it is...and they are what they are.
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  140. Mr. Hack says:
    @gerad

    Is it? He seems rather critical of Putler lately. The Putler thought police have been harassing and arresting some of Karlin’s fellow nationalists on other right wing nationalist sites…
     
    Americans are always critical of their political structure ,parts of their culture and history....until somebody from another country comments on these flaws....then these same inane Americans will illogically claim their system,culture and history is "perfect" and "exceptional"...and "the only hope for the world"

    Of course Vladimir Vladimirovich, just like Vladimir Volfovitz....... is worth a million Saakashvili's,Poroshenko,Timoshenko,Yushchenko,Obama,Rooseveld,Clinton and Kuchma's put together

    I don’t see any sense in comparing the relative worth of contemporary Russians with a mixture of Ukrainians and Americans? It is what it is…and they are what they are.

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  141. gerad says:
    @Mr. Hack

    You could even sell the movie rights: ‘Saving Private Mudak’ has got a nice ring to it.
     
    I'm more interested in psychological thrillers, and might consider an ethno-biography exploring how a nice Russian boy named 'Pavel' got hastily conscripted by a Chechen warlord to join a rag tag 'NovoRosijan' liberating force, to fight a bunch of Ukro-Nazis' in the Donbas conflict, and ended up getting his brains scrambled in the process. He now thinks that he's actually a Ukrainian:

    'How Pavel became Pavlo'

    How a Russian lad lost his identity in the Donbas, and turned on Mother Russia and Father Putler

     

    I prefer the psychological thriller about another Pavlo….the dickhead who is the Ukrainian FM…..not fit enough to even clean the shoes of the master Sergei Lavrov. Klimkin has none of the skills required to be a diplomat, has no succesful results to speak of…..and has his father in law safely tucked away in Crimea refusing to return to Ukraine.

    Another psychological thriller, far more amusing , could be on the Ukro-Nazi scumbag army…..reliant on oligarchs ( I thought they were supposed to get rid of them not be even more reliant on them?) …AND on loans from the IMF to be barely operable, infected with corruption, unable to beat a bunch of miners,…….and are riven with abnormally high suicide rates…..each one ashamed of what a weak, murderer of civilians POS they have become.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    Get to it man! Maybe it'll headline as a double feature!
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  142. @German_reader

    By the way, what exactly do right-wing atheists, as opposed to conservative religious people, have against the poz in the above sense?
     
    I'm personally not especially anti-homo (I'm not even totally against some form of official recognition for homosexual partnerships, it's matters like adoption that bother me), but I'd say the segment of homos celebrating "poz", that is people who engage in dangerous sex practices like unprotected anal sex which are conducive to the spread of HIV and various STDs, with frequently changing partners, is just irresponsible and selfish to a disgusting degree...if anything, at least these people are a major burden on the public health system because of their "lifestyle" and its consequences.
    More generally it's hard for me not to get the impression that parts of the LBGT movement are extremely subversive and aim at a radical reconfiguration of society...something like the celebration of "transsexualism" sickens me, it's another attempt by the progressive left to see what they can get away with, how much they can bully and harass other people ("Don't you agree that 2+2=5? Or are you a hater whose life should be destroyed for the sake of tolerance?") and force their bizarre perceptions of reality on the rest of us. At some point this has to be resisted.

    “I’m not even totally against some form of official recognition for homosexual partnerships.”

    It seems to me that there is a really easy solution to that problem: governments stop handing out marriage licenses and start handing out civil partnerships between any two consenting adults. Such relationships could even be totally asexual. The point is simply that there should be a way for any two adults to share legal responsibility for each other if they so choose: right of attorney, of inheritance, and so on. Since governments aren’t going to do this, perhaps it can be arranged via blockchain.
    (Completey apart from this, there is old-fashioned marriage in the religious sense, which of course still exists.)

    Of course people having wreckless sexual intercourse is insane, and there is nothing to celebrate about it. As for one being expected in “polite society” to celebrate LGBTQXYZ, I agree it is unreasonable. So far as I can tell, all of these behaviors are the result of neurological abnormality, like autism or schizophrenia. (In fact, they are correlated.) While I am empathetic to neurologically abnormal people, and certainly wish to extend to them the protection of the law, the existence of such abnormality is hardly a reason for rejoicing.

    Read More
    • Replies: @utu
    It seems to me that there is a really easy solution to that problem

    Another easy libertarian solution. Don't you see that by opening this door it will lead to adoption and gays having children. This is the ultimate prize they want. Once they can indoctrinate children the whole damn infiltration of our values will never be reversed.
    , @reiner Tor

    It seems to me that there is a really easy solution to that problem: governments stop handing out marriage licenses and start handing out civil partnerships between any two consenting adults
     
    And then what about adoption?
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  143. AP says:
    @Anatoly Karlin
    (West) Germany is still pretty religious - more so than the UK, France, and even (IIRC) Spain, though less so than Italy.

    This doesn’t separate eastern form western Germany, but overall Germans don’t seem to attend church much, which is a good indicator of actual religiosity:

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    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
    Church attendance is a good proxy for devout religiosity but not so much belief in God per se.

    http://i.imgur.com/ejoCW5W.jpg

    Germans indeed believe in God more than the French or Brits.

    http://i.imgur.com/7qc4BuK.png

    Now adjusting for East Germany, which is majority atheist, like Czechia and Estonia, and West Germans probably become comparable to Spaniards.
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  144. Seraphim says:
    @Greasy William

    No kidding. By that logic would should be done to American Southerners?
     
    American Southerners enslaved an inferior race who are not able to handle freedom. Big difference.

    I don't care about the Crimea, but certain populations can be so evil that they lose their rights to their land. Mexicans would be the number 1 example. They should be ethnically cleansed from Mexico and their land given to white Americans.

    When you think that it may turn out the other way round you may have a good laugh!

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  145. AP says:
    @German_reader

    The Archbishop of Krakow, Marek Jedraszewski, who sits in the former chair of Karol Wojtyla, presided over the rosary recitation, calling on the faithful to “pray for Europe to remain Christian to save its culture.”
     
    The problem with this is that a non-trivial number of Catholics - including the highest levels of the hierarchy - would claim that to be truly Christian one has to welcome "refugees" and be ready to endure the self-sacrifice this entails (which would be a small price to pay anyway, given that we're only talking about earthly matters).
    We get a lot of this in Germany, e.g. justifications of Merkel's open borders madness with the Sermon on the mount, and with opposition to it being presented as heathenism (maybe in the spirit of the Nazis?). This may be especially pronounced in Germany, but I think it would be naive to believe similar trends won't affect Poland and other countries in East Central Europe.

    Okay, but this Polish archbishop presided over the rosary at the borders demonstration, which was considered to be anti-Muslim. So it looks like the masses of priests as well as at least some hierarchs oppose Muslim migration, while the head of Poland’s Church supports it (though even he says – with certain measures to promote safety). I don’t think one can conclude that Poland’s Church is a force for Muslim migration.

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    • Replies: @German_reader

    I don’t think one can conclude that Poland’s Church is a force for Muslim migration.
     
    No, and I didn't claim that. But if you had told people in Western Europe as late as the 1980s or even the early to mid-1990s what's actually happening today, do you think they would have believed it? These processes take some time until they reach their end point, I don't think optimism is warranted.
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  146. @AP
    Okay, but this Polish archbishop presided over the rosary at the borders demonstration, which was considered to be anti-Muslim. So it looks like the masses of priests as well as at least some hierarchs oppose Muslim migration, while the head of Poland's Church supports it (though even he says - with certain measures to promote safety). I don't think one can conclude that Poland's Church is a force for Muslim migration.

    I don’t think one can conclude that Poland’s Church is a force for Muslim migration.

    No, and I didn’t claim that. But if you had told people in Western Europe as late as the 1980s or even the early to mid-1990s what’s actually happening today, do you think they would have believed it? These processes take some time until they reach their end point, I don’t think optimism is warranted.

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    • Replies: @AP
    Well, the process has not even begun in Poland, and already the West itself is walking some of this back; witness what happened in the Austrian election, for example. Will there be demands for someone to take Muslim refugees in 5 years? Any optimism ought to be guarded, of course, but the negative events seem to be decelerating.
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  147. Mr. Hack says:
    @gerad
    I prefer the psychological thriller about another Pavlo....the dickhead who is the Ukrainian FM.....not fit enough to even clean the shoes of the master Sergei Lavrov. Klimkin has none of the skills required to be a diplomat, has no succesful results to speak of.....and has his father in law safely tucked away in Crimea refusing to return to Ukraine.

    Another psychological thriller, far more amusing , could be on the Ukro-Nazi scumbag army.....reliant on oligarchs ( I thought they were supposed to get rid of them not be even more reliant on them?) ...AND on loans from the IMF to be barely operable, infected with corruption, unable to beat a bunch of miners,.......and are riven with abnormally high suicide rates.....each one ashamed of what a weak, murderer of civilians POS they have become.

    Get to it man! Maybe it’ll headline as a double feature!

    Read More
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  148. AP says:
    @German_reader

    I don’t think one can conclude that Poland’s Church is a force for Muslim migration.
     
    No, and I didn't claim that. But if you had told people in Western Europe as late as the 1980s or even the early to mid-1990s what's actually happening today, do you think they would have believed it? These processes take some time until they reach their end point, I don't think optimism is warranted.

    Well, the process has not even begun in Poland, and already the West itself is walking some of this back; witness what happened in the Austrian election, for example. Will there be demands for someone to take Muslim refugees in 5 years? Any optimism ought to be guarded, of course, but the negative events seem to be decelerating.

    Read More
    • Replies: @German_reader
    Maybe. I'm naturally a pessimist and always expect the worst. We'll just have to see how this turns out.
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  149. @AP
    Well, the process has not even begun in Poland, and already the West itself is walking some of this back; witness what happened in the Austrian election, for example. Will there be demands for someone to take Muslim refugees in 5 years? Any optimism ought to be guarded, of course, but the negative events seem to be decelerating.

    Maybe. I’m naturally a pessimist and always expect the worst. We’ll just have to see how this turns out.

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  150. @AP
    This doesn't separate eastern form western Germany, but overall Germans don't seem to attend church much, which is a good indicator of actual religiosity:

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CtyIX8bVUAAbtGy.jpg

    Church attendance is a good proxy for devout religiosity but not so much belief in God per se.

    Germans indeed believe in God more than the French or Brits.

    Now adjusting for East Germany, which is majority atheist, like Czechia and Estonia, and West Germans probably become comparable to Spaniards.

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    • Replies: @AP
    Thanks for the fascinating data!
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  151. Pavlo says:
    @AP

    Come now, it was your lot that claimed the whole of the ‘civilised world’ was menaced by ‘Russian aggression’
     
    Yet more projection. Your lot claimed Ukraine was taken over by Zionazis or Anglozionists or whatever, threatening the very heart of Russia.

    Why weren't you fighting this global threat, Pavlo? The militias in Donbas were/are hiring.

    I've been consistent in saying the loss of urban Donbas has been great for Ukraine. But you have lost the "mother of Russian cities." Your people were "massacred" in Odessa. Nazis are marching with torches in Kiev. There was a coup against a democratically elected President. And yet you sit on your ass. Why, Pavlo, do you do that when your people are dying?

    Doctor, you’re the nationalist here, not I. The Ukraine and the Ukrainians are a gaggle of cretinous servants who’ve exploited the master’s absence to rob his liquor cabinet. That’s the Ukrainian ‘threat’. The DNR is scarcely less of a clownshow, but since it’s probably even more Ukrainian in composition than the Kiev regime nobody should have expected anything else.

    You’re the one who – apparently – promotes a failed cause for a living. All I wish to do is remind you and your dim-witted homunculus that all the shit you type is not only risible, but meaningless until you set aside your keyboard and take up the gun.

    Go on, it’s not difficult!

    1. Plane ticket to Kiev.

    2. Connecting flight to Mariupol.

    3. Walk east until you get shot.

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    • Replies: @AP

    Doctor, you’re the nationalist here, not I.
     
    To a Russian nationalist like you, someone who does not follow the Russian nationalist script regarding Ukraine is evidently (in this case) a Ukrainian nationalist. Your belief is predictable, given your background, but mistaken.

    The Ukraine and the Ukrainians are a gaggle of cretinous servants who’ve exploited the master’s absence to rob his liquor cabinet
     
    An apt description of Russia after the Tsar left.

    You’re the one who – apparently – promotes a failed cause for a living
     
    I was in Ukraine this summer. It was quite charming. The nice parts such as Lviv look nicer than ever. Not much evidence of failure there. It's probably a very different story in the Donbas. Does that hurt? If so, you know what to do.

    all the shit you type is not only risible, but meaningless until you set aside your keyboard and take up the gun.
     
    Pavlo, Poroshenko said that while Ukrainian kids are going to school, Donbas ones would be hiding in cellars.

    Save them, Pavlo. Save the Russian kids. Take up the gun and go to Donbas. Why don't you do it for the children?

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  152. Pavlo says:
    @Mr. Hack

    You could even sell the movie rights: ‘Saving Private Mudak’ has got a nice ring to it.
     
    I'm more interested in psychological thrillers, and might consider an ethno-biography exploring how a nice Russian boy named 'Pavel' got hastily conscripted by a Chechen warlord to join a rag tag 'NovoRosijan' liberating force, to fight a bunch of Ukro-Nazis' in the Donbas conflict, and ended up getting his brains scrambled in the process. He now thinks that he's actually a Ukrainian:

    'How Pavel became Pavlo'

    How a Russian lad lost his identity in the Donbas, and turned on Mother Russia and Father Putler

     

    Jeez Wayne, even your trash talk is weak.

    I’d tell you to stick to your day job, but evidently this it, so never mind.

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    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    trash talk?

    I was only trying to discern whether or not your name betrays Ukrainian origins (Pavlo), or perhaps you're a Ukrainian wanna be who got rejected long ago, and is now carrying around a big chip on his shoulder? :-(

    Stick to being Pavel, it'll make more sense when you take up residence in Donbas, defending 'NovoRosija'.
     
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  153. AP says:
    @Anatoly Karlin
    Church attendance is a good proxy for devout religiosity but not so much belief in God per se.

    http://i.imgur.com/ejoCW5W.jpg

    Germans indeed believe in God more than the French or Brits.

    http://i.imgur.com/7qc4BuK.png

    Now adjusting for East Germany, which is majority atheist, like Czechia and Estonia, and West Germans probably become comparable to Spaniards.

    Thanks for the fascinating data!

    Read More
    • Agree: Dan Hayes
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  154. AP says:
    @Pavlo
    Doctor, you're the nationalist here, not I. The Ukraine and the Ukrainians are a gaggle of cretinous servants who've exploited the master's absence to rob his liquor cabinet. That's the Ukrainian 'threat'. The DNR is scarcely less of a clownshow, but since it's probably even more Ukrainian in composition than the Kiev regime nobody should have expected anything else.

    You're the one who - apparently - promotes a failed cause for a living. All I wish to do is remind you and your dim-witted homunculus that all the shit you type is not only risible, but meaningless until you set aside your keyboard and take up the gun.

    Go on, it's not difficult!

    1. Plane ticket to Kiev.

    2. Connecting flight to Mariupol.

    3. Walk east until you get shot.

    Doctor, you’re the nationalist here, not I.

    To a Russian nationalist like you, someone who does not follow the Russian nationalist script regarding Ukraine is evidently (in this case) a Ukrainian nationalist. Your belief is predictable, given your background, but mistaken.

    The Ukraine and the Ukrainians are a gaggle of cretinous servants who’ve exploited the master’s absence to rob his liquor cabinet

    An apt description of Russia after the Tsar left.

    You’re the one who – apparently – promotes a failed cause for a living

    I was in Ukraine this summer. It was quite charming. The nice parts such as Lviv look nicer than ever. Not much evidence of failure there. It’s probably a very different story in the Donbas. Does that hurt? If so, you know what to do.

    all the shit you type is not only risible, but meaningless until you set aside your keyboard and take up the gun.

    Pavlo, Poroshenko said that while Ukrainian kids are going to school, Donbas ones would be hiding in cellars.

    Save them, Pavlo. Save the Russian kids. Take up the gun and go to Donbas. Why don’t you do it for the children?

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    • Agree: Mr. Hack
    • Replies: @Pavlo
    For an apparently intelligent man, you're terribly predictable. The angrier you get, the more the mask slips and you show yourself for the Bandera cultist you are.

    You should think and reflect carefully: adulation of a gang of psycho murderers led by Voldemort's retarded brother is the core of your identity, yet you won't go and fight for that creed. You should think about why that is.

    You should also think about why it is that you find a baroque rubbish heap inhabited by cartoon Nazis 'charming'. And you should seriously question your own judgment when you visit Moldova 2.0 and see 'no evidence of failure'.
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  155. Mr. Hack says:
    @Pavlo
    Jeez Wayne, even your trash talk is weak.

    I'd tell you to stick to your day job, but evidently this it, so never mind.

    trash talk?

    I was only trying to discern whether or not your name betrays Ukrainian origins (Pavlo), or perhaps you’re a Ukrainian wanna be who got rejected long ago, and is now carrying around a big chip on his shoulder? :-(

    Stick to being Pavel, it’ll make more sense when you take up residence in Donbas, defending ‘NovoRosija’.

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    • Replies: @Pavlo
    There no 'Ukrainian wannabes' you silly bugger - no foreigner ever becomes Ukrainian by desire. Nor are there rejects - the Ukraine cheerfully accepts any wandering sack of crap (see Saakashvili, Gaidar, Voronenkov) who'll wear a peasant shirt and sing her Godawful anthem ('the Titanic has not yet sunk').

    If you want to swap pedigrees, you first - I'd be fascinated to hear which shithole in Rovno or Lutsk your family crawled out of.
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  156. Pavlo says:
    @AP

    Doctor, you’re the nationalist here, not I.
     
    To a Russian nationalist like you, someone who does not follow the Russian nationalist script regarding Ukraine is evidently (in this case) a Ukrainian nationalist. Your belief is predictable, given your background, but mistaken.

    The Ukraine and the Ukrainians are a gaggle of cretinous servants who’ve exploited the master’s absence to rob his liquor cabinet
     
    An apt description of Russia after the Tsar left.

    You’re the one who – apparently – promotes a failed cause for a living
     
    I was in Ukraine this summer. It was quite charming. The nice parts such as Lviv look nicer than ever. Not much evidence of failure there. It's probably a very different story in the Donbas. Does that hurt? If so, you know what to do.

    all the shit you type is not only risible, but meaningless until you set aside your keyboard and take up the gun.
     
    Pavlo, Poroshenko said that while Ukrainian kids are going to school, Donbas ones would be hiding in cellars.

    Save them, Pavlo. Save the Russian kids. Take up the gun and go to Donbas. Why don't you do it for the children?

    For an apparently intelligent man, you’re terribly predictable. The angrier you get, the more the mask slips and you show yourself for the Bandera cultist you are.

    You should think and reflect carefully: adulation of a gang of psycho murderers led by Voldemort’s retarded brother is the core of your identity, yet you won’t go and fight for that creed. You should think about why that is.

    You should also think about why it is that you find a baroque rubbish heap inhabited by cartoon Nazis ‘charming’. And you should seriously question your own judgment when you visit Moldova 2.0 and see ‘no evidence of failure’.

    Read More
    • Replies: @AP

    The angrier you get, the more the mask slips and you show yourself for the Bandera cultist you are.
     
    You elicit amusement (mixed with a little contempt), not anger. I think some Russian nationalist complaining about someone else not fighting somewhere, when there is a real cause for Russian nationalists to fight, is funny. Don't you care about the Russian children of Donbas?

    And nothing in my statements is suggestive of "Bandera cultism." Your Russian nationalism is showing, again.

    adulation of a gang of psycho murderers led by Voldemort’s retarded brother
     
    Okay, you have actually stumped me and made me curious - who specifically is supposed to be Voldemort's retarded brother here.

    yet you won’t go and fight for that creed
     
    Which creed? Amputating septic, Soviet infected Donbas from the Ukrainian body? This has been accomplished wonderfully without my help.

    During the Orange Revolution, the southern and eastern provinces threatened to break away. These areas were collectively referred to in Kiev as Південно-Східна Українська Автономна Республіка - PISUAR. I thought back then - dumping Donbas would be good, but it would be a shame to lose Kherson and the Black Sea coast, and major port of Odessa, cutting UKriane off from the sea. And Kharkiv is valuable also. But how to lose Donbas, while keeping all the rest?

    Well, somehow it has been accomplished. Even better - the ethnic Ukrainian parts of Donbas itself, with the gas deposits, have stayed in Ukraine. The country has lost exactly the parts that were most harmful to it, through a process that has further distanced the main body from the Sovok legacy and moved it further Westward. Well done.

    why it is that you find a baroque rubbish heap
     
    "Rubbish heap" in Pavlo's world:

    https://i.pinimg.com/736x/fa/56/09/fa56099c0eb81a8a5c3a2fd0735b3b37--lviv-ukraine-square.jpg

    question your own judgment when you visit Moldova 2.0
     
    "Moldova 2.0" in Pavlo's world:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yo7P75ma7Oo

    I watched a video of Chisinau, Moldova. Looks, actually, like a rather typical provincial Russian city. Are you from one of those? Not that they are bad places. Lviv is nicer than most cities in Russia, and has only been improving. Does it hurt you, Pavlo?

    and see ‘no evidence of failure’.
     
    Your various claims are certainly evidence of your personal failures, Pavlo.
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  157. Pavlo says:
    @Mr. Hack
    trash talk?

    I was only trying to discern whether or not your name betrays Ukrainian origins (Pavlo), or perhaps you're a Ukrainian wanna be who got rejected long ago, and is now carrying around a big chip on his shoulder? :-(

    Stick to being Pavel, it'll make more sense when you take up residence in Donbas, defending 'NovoRosija'.
     

    There no ‘Ukrainian wannabes’ you silly bugger – no foreigner ever becomes Ukrainian by desire. Nor are there rejects – the Ukraine cheerfully accepts any wandering sack of crap (see Saakashvili, Gaidar, Voronenkov) who’ll wear a peasant shirt and sing her Godawful anthem (‘the Titanic has not yet sunk’).

    If you want to swap pedigrees, you first – I’d be fascinated to hear which shithole in Rovno or Lutsk your family crawled out of.

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    • Replies: @AP

    no foreigner ever becomes Ukrainian by desire
     
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Shevelov

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olena_Teliha

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  158. utu says:
    @German_reader
    That's not really correct imo. East Germany is largely (if not totally) irreligious due to the legacy of communism, and of course real belief is quite weak in younger age cohorts (but then atheism seems to be spreading even among millennials in the US). But the churches do retain a lot of influence (which unfortunately they're using for purposes I strongly disapprove of), and there isn't a clear-cut separation of church and state (e.g. in most German states you have religious education as a graded subject in state schools; the state collects church tax for the churches etc.).

    East Germany is largely (if not totally) irreligious due to the legacy of communism

    Yes and no. If East Germans were Catholics perhaps they would have come out from communism stronger like Poles and not weaker. There is something about Protestants that make them to cave in to almost any ideology that surrounds them. In another words Protestants are pretty much useless nowadays, while Catholics still have some steam left despite of the temporary setback, I hope, of having the leftist Jesuit pope.

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  159. utu says:
    @The Big Red Scary
    “I’m not even totally against some form of official recognition for homosexual partnerships.”

    It seems to me that there is a really easy solution to that problem: governments stop handing out marriage licenses and start handing out civil partnerships between any two consenting adults. Such relationships could even be totally asexual. The point is simply that there should be a way for any two adults to share legal responsibility for each other if they so choose: right of attorney, of inheritance, and so on. Since governments aren’t going to do this, perhaps it can be arranged via blockchain.
    (Completey apart from this, there is old-fashioned marriage in the religious sense, which of course still exists.)

    Of course people having wreckless sexual intercourse is insane, and there is nothing to celebrate about it. As for one being expected in “polite society” to celebrate LGBTQXYZ, I agree it is unreasonable. So far as I can tell, all of these behaviors are the result of neurological abnormality, like autism or schizophrenia. (In fact, they are correlated.) While I am empathetic to neurologically abnormal people, and certainly wish to extend to them the protection of the law, the existence of such abnormality is hardly a reason for rejoicing.

    It seems to me that there is a really easy solution to that problem

    Another easy libertarian solution. Don’t you see that by opening this door it will lead to adoption and gays having children. This is the ultimate prize they want. Once they can indoctrinate children the whole damn infiltration of our values will never be reversed.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anon
    Agree. The battle for redefinition of family is the battle for the foundational cell of Western Civ, the one civilization that told men like Charles V that he could only have one wife (Orthodox and Protestant did vary a bit on this) And that every man could have a castle in his home. Having half-won that battle, 'they' are on to the next one, the un-definition of "man or woman" which will render individuals incapable of rationally ordering a life, let alone a community. Internationally, the concept of patria protestad is being undermined, just in case some natural families hold on. The individual, wholly manipulable, alone against the State. Gender ideology, not a mentioned theme at Unz's, like communism, cannot prosper in the long run because it goes against natural law. However, it might hold its own for a couple of generations and cause incalculable suffering.

    I wonder why gender ideology and transhumanism are not even occasionally a theme at Unz's, though sometimes Sailer pokes fun at gays/lesbians.
    , @The Big Red Scary
    This is the logical outcome of the state usurping spiritual and social authority. Once marriage is understood as a legal rather than spiritual or social institution, it became the business of courts and bureaucrats, and there was bound to be a battle about definitions. This battle has already been lost in many countries, probably irrevocably. Rather than suggesting any two people be allowed to marry, I am suggesting that the state get out of the marriage business before it does any further harm.

    In Russia, for example, where over 40% of people identify as Orthodox Christian, almost everyone gets married at the ЗАГС (a certain government office) and marriage in the Church is rare. I suspect this has to do with laziness. It requires little effort or commitment to get married at the ЗАГС, where getting married in the Church is a serious matter. Where is this going in the long run? Russia is also a liberal democracy, at least on paper, and it is not implausible that fifty years from now marriage in Russia will become as meaningless as it is in the West. If on the other hand the Russian state
    were to stop offering some perfunctory marriage ceremony at the ЗАГС, telling people who wanted to make a serious commitment and have a proper ceremony that they should do that in some traditional way.

    This is not a question of libertarianism, but rather of “legibility” versus “metis”, to use the language of Scott in Seeing like a State.
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  160. Anon says: • Disclaimer
    @utu
    It seems to me that there is a really easy solution to that problem

    Another easy libertarian solution. Don't you see that by opening this door it will lead to adoption and gays having children. This is the ultimate prize they want. Once they can indoctrinate children the whole damn infiltration of our values will never be reversed.

    Agree. The battle for redefinition of family is the battle for the foundational cell of Western Civ, the one civilization that told men like Charles V that he could only have one wife (Orthodox and Protestant did vary a bit on this) And that every man could have a castle in his home. Having half-won that battle, ‘they’ are on to the next one, the un-definition of “man or woman” which will render individuals incapable of rationally ordering a life, let alone a community. Internationally, the concept of patria protestad is being undermined, just in case some natural families hold on. The individual, wholly manipulable, alone against the State. Gender ideology, not a mentioned theme at Unz’s, like communism, cannot prosper in the long run because it goes against natural law. However, it might hold its own for a couple of generations and cause incalculable suffering.

    I wonder why gender ideology and transhumanism are not even occasionally a theme at Unz’s, though sometimes Sailer pokes fun at gays/lesbians.

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    • Replies: @The Big Red Scary
    By letting the state define marriage you have already let them invade your castle. I’m suggesting we take away the right of the state to make that definition.
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  161. Anon says: • Disclaimer
    @German_reader

    The Archbishop of Krakow, Marek Jedraszewski, who sits in the former chair of Karol Wojtyla, presided over the rosary recitation, calling on the faithful to “pray for Europe to remain Christian to save its culture.”
     
    The problem with this is that a non-trivial number of Catholics - including the highest levels of the hierarchy - would claim that to be truly Christian one has to welcome "refugees" and be ready to endure the self-sacrifice this entails (which would be a small price to pay anyway, given that we're only talking about earthly matters).
    We get a lot of this in Germany, e.g. justifications of Merkel's open borders madness with the Sermon on the mount, and with opposition to it being presented as heathenism (maybe in the spirit of the Nazis?). This may be especially pronounced in Germany, but I think it would be naive to believe similar trends won't affect Poland and other countries in East Central Europe.

    It really is not catholic but I think there is manipulation of language and of sentiment with a specific political aim (partly by the hierarchy). This lack of clarity in terms is certainly not catholic. Do current labels (refugees) conform to actual reality? Mislabeling an enemy/infiltrator as immigrant/guest is a serious mistake that injures both the common good and individual citizens. And let’s not forget prudence is the first of the virtues.

    Here’s the immediately relevant passages of the Catechism, if you care to dive in:

    224 “The more prosperous nations are obliged, to the extent they are able, to welcome the foreigner in search of the security and the means of livelihood which he cannot find in his country of origin. Public authorities should see to it that the natural right is respected that places a guest under the protection of those who receive him.

    Political authorities, for the sake of the common good for which they are responsible, may make the exercise of the right to immigrate subject to various juridical conditions,especially with regard to the immigrants’ duties toward their country of adoption. Immigrants are obliged to respect with gratitude the material and spiritual heritage of the country that receives them, to obey its laws and to assist in carrying civic burdens.

    2242 The citizen is obliged in conscience not to follow the directives of civil authorities when they are contrary to the demands of the moral order, to the fundamental rights of persons or the teachings of the Gospel. Refusing obedience to civil authorities, when their demands are contrary to those of an upright conscience, finds its justification in the distinction between serving God and serving the political community. “Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s.”48 “We must obey God rather than men”:49

    When citizens are under the oppression of a public authority which oversteps its competence, they should still not refuse to give or to do what is objectively demanded of them by the common good; but it is legitimate for them to defend their own rights and those of their fellow citizens against the abuse of this authority within the limits of the natural law and the Law of the Gospel.50

    Cardinal Sarah, labeled as “orthodox catholic” by the liberal side, already spoke out saying countries have the right to distinguish between economic migrants and refugees. Poland’s bishops are solidly catholic, that simply means they see massive Muslim influx for what it really means. Apparently the rosary thing is catching on in Ireland. We’ll see.

    Read More
    • Replies: @German_reader

    The more prosperous nations are obliged, to the extent they are able, to welcome the foreigner in search of the security and the means of livelihood which he cannot find in his country of origin.
     
    I absolutely disagree with that..."security and means of livelihood" are elastic terms that can be stretched to mean anything. A place like Afghanistan obiously isn't as secure as Western countries (at least for now...), and probably never will be, due to the cultural predilections of its inhabitants. That doesn't mean other countries should have an obligation to take in Afghans (or Nigerians, Mexicans or whoever else lives in a dysfunctional society), until it becomes just as messed up as the countries the "refugees" came from. And btw, asylum as it was originally intended was in no way about "security and means of livelihood" (i.e. "I come from a shitty place and I want a nicer life, hand over the benefits!")...it was about people who faced actual persecution (like "I'll end up in a concentration camp or the Gulag if you don't take me in"). Big difference.
    The very fact that the Catholic church thinks it should have anything to say about secular matters like immigration policy in its catechism is just its typical insufferable presumption again. "Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's"...yeah, obviously there is somewhat of a disagreement what's that supposed to mean.

    (and btw, why are so many people commenting here as "anon"? I find it rather annoying and am tempted not to reply to such comments in future anymore...how would the comments section look like if everyone did this? It's one thing not to use one's real name - I wouldn't do that either - but not even a fictional one?).

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  162. AP says:
    @Pavlo
    For an apparently intelligent man, you're terribly predictable. The angrier you get, the more the mask slips and you show yourself for the Bandera cultist you are.

    You should think and reflect carefully: adulation of a gang of psycho murderers led by Voldemort's retarded brother is the core of your identity, yet you won't go and fight for that creed. You should think about why that is.

    You should also think about why it is that you find a baroque rubbish heap inhabited by cartoon Nazis 'charming'. And you should seriously question your own judgment when you visit Moldova 2.0 and see 'no evidence of failure'.

    The angrier you get, the more the mask slips and you show yourself for the Bandera cultist you are.

    You elicit amusement (mixed with a little contempt), not anger. I think some Russian nationalist complaining about someone else not fighting somewhere, when there is a real cause for Russian nationalists to fight, is funny. Don’t you care about the Russian children of Donbas?

    And nothing in my statements is suggestive of “Bandera cultism.” Your Russian nationalism is showing, again.

    adulation of a gang of psycho murderers led by Voldemort’s retarded brother

    Okay, you have actually stumped me and made me curious – who specifically is supposed to be Voldemort’s retarded brother here.

    yet you won’t go and fight for that creed

    Which creed? Amputating septic, Soviet infected Donbas from the Ukrainian body? This has been accomplished wonderfully without my help.

    During the Orange Revolution, the southern and eastern provinces threatened to break away. These areas were collectively referred to in Kiev as Південно-Східна Українська Автономна Республіка – PISUAR. I thought back then – dumping Donbas would be good, but it would be a shame to lose Kherson and the Black Sea coast, and major port of Odessa, cutting UKriane off from the sea. And Kharkiv is valuable also. But how to lose Donbas, while keeping all the rest?

    Well, somehow it has been accomplished. Even better – the ethnic Ukrainian parts of Donbas itself, with the gas deposits, have stayed in Ukraine. The country has lost exactly the parts that were most harmful to it, through a process that has further distanced the main body from the Sovok legacy and moved it further Westward. Well done.

    why it is that you find a baroque rubbish heap

    “Rubbish heap” in Pavlo’s world:

    question your own judgment when you visit Moldova 2.0

    “Moldova 2.0″ in Pavlo’s world:

    I watched a video of Chisinau, Moldova. Looks, actually, like a rather typical provincial Russian city. Are you from one of those? Not that they are bad places. Lviv is nicer than most cities in Russia, and has only been improving. Does it hurt you, Pavlo?

    and see ‘no evidence of failure’.

    Your various claims are certainly evidence of your personal failures, Pavlo.

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    • Replies: @Pavlo
    Denial of the bleeding obvious doesn't help you o mighty Orkamungus. You're positively fuming, that's why you dropped the mask of civility and started salivating at the thought of Russian children terrorised by Orc artillery. Nor am I a Russian nationalist (or a Russian for that matter) - nationalism is weird and gay, for lack of a more cutting term, and it makes people weird and gay.

    Case in point: Ukrainian nationalism has you pretending that all those uncounted thousands of Orc looters died to get rid of Donbass. It has you posting tourist videos rather than admit that the Ukraine is poorer and more miserable than it was 2013. You know which other city 'looks nice'? Pyongyang - smells better too, by all accounts.

    Really, PinnocchiOrc, who do you think you are fooling?
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  163. @Anon
    It really is not catholic but I think there is manipulation of language and of sentiment with a specific political aim (partly by the hierarchy). This lack of clarity in terms is certainly not catholic. Do current labels (refugees) conform to actual reality? Mislabeling an enemy/infiltrator as immigrant/guest is a serious mistake that injures both the common good and individual citizens. And let’s not forget prudence is the first of the virtues.

    Here’s the immediately relevant passages of the Catechism, if you care to dive in:

    224 “The more prosperous nations are obliged, to the extent they are able, to welcome the foreigner in search of the security and the means of livelihood which he cannot find in his country of origin. Public authorities should see to it that the natural right is respected that places a guest under the protection of those who receive him.

    Political authorities, for the sake of the common good for which they are responsible, may make the exercise of the right to immigrate subject to various juridical conditions,especially with regard to the immigrants’ duties toward their country of adoption. Immigrants are obliged to respect with gratitude the material and spiritual heritage of the country that receives them, to obey its laws and to assist in carrying civic burdens.

    2242 The citizen is obliged in conscience not to follow the directives of civil authorities when they are contrary to the demands of the moral order, to the fundamental rights of persons or the teachings of the Gospel. Refusing obedience to civil authorities, when their demands are contrary to those of an upright conscience, finds its justification in the distinction between serving God and serving the political community. “Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s.”48 “We must obey God rather than men”:49

    When citizens are under the oppression of a public authority which oversteps its competence, they should still not refuse to give or to do what is objectively demanded of them by the common good; but it is legitimate for them to defend their own rights and those of their fellow citizens against the abuse of this authority within the limits of the natural law and the Law of the Gospel.50

    Cardinal Sarah, labeled as "orthodox catholic" by the liberal side, already spoke out saying countries have the right to distinguish between economic migrants and refugees. Poland's bishops are solidly catholic, that simply means they see massive Muslim influx for what it really means. Apparently the rosary thing is catching on in Ireland. We'll see.

    The more prosperous nations are obliged, to the extent they are able, to welcome the foreigner in search of the security and the means of livelihood which he cannot find in his country of origin.

    I absolutely disagree with that…”security and means of livelihood” are elastic terms that can be stretched to mean anything. A place like Afghanistan obiously isn’t as secure as Western countries (at least for now…), and probably never will be, due to the cultural predilections of its inhabitants. That doesn’t mean other countries should have an obligation to take in Afghans (or Nigerians, Mexicans or whoever else lives in a dysfunctional society), until it becomes just as messed up as the countries the “refugees” came from. And btw, asylum as it was originally intended was in no way about “security and means of livelihood” (i.e. “I come from a shitty place and I want a nicer life, hand over the benefits!”)…it was about people who faced actual persecution (like “I’ll end up in a concentration camp or the Gulag if you don’t take me in”). Big difference.
    The very fact that the Catholic church thinks it should have anything to say about secular matters like immigration policy in its catechism is just its typical insufferable presumption again. “Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s”…yeah, obviously there is somewhat of a disagreement what’s that supposed to mean.

    (and btw, why are so many people commenting here as “anon”? I find it rather annoying and am tempted not to reply to such comments in future anymore…how would the comments section look like if everyone did this? It’s one thing not to use one’s real name – I wouldn’t do that either – but not even a fictional one?).

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    • Replies: @AP
    Ironically, if Europeans hadn't abandoned the Church's teachings and lived actual Christian lives, none of these would be problems. The Euro population would be robust, young, confident in their culture and expanding, capable of absorbing and assimilating any refugees. Islam would be no threat and there would be no purpose for nasty neo-Nazism as some desperate reaction by dying peoples.
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  164. AP says:
    @Pavlo
    There no 'Ukrainian wannabes' you silly bugger - no foreigner ever becomes Ukrainian by desire. Nor are there rejects - the Ukraine cheerfully accepts any wandering sack of crap (see Saakashvili, Gaidar, Voronenkov) who'll wear a peasant shirt and sing her Godawful anthem ('the Titanic has not yet sunk').

    If you want to swap pedigrees, you first - I'd be fascinated to hear which shithole in Rovno or Lutsk your family crawled out of.
    Read More
    • Replies: @Pavlo
    Shevelov - German becomes Russian because the Great War is underway and the name 'Schneider' is uncomfortable. Against the background of Soviet Ukrainisation schemes becomes a Ukrainian language teacher and advocate. Serves as a Ukrainian collaborator to the Reich. Sticks with the Ukrainian shtick beyond that because that's the career path fate had put him on.

    Teliga - Ukrainian. Lives in Kiev. Petliura and his moronic terrorists take over, she becomes a Ukrainian nationalist (well, not everybody can bet on the winning horse). Fails to accomplish anything worth mentioning, dies hilariously.

    How you think this proves your point I can't imagine.
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  165. AP says:
    @German_reader

    The more prosperous nations are obliged, to the extent they are able, to welcome the foreigner in search of the security and the means of livelihood which he cannot find in his country of origin.
     
    I absolutely disagree with that..."security and means of livelihood" are elastic terms that can be stretched to mean anything. A place like Afghanistan obiously isn't as secure as Western countries (at least for now...), and probably never will be, due to the cultural predilections of its inhabitants. That doesn't mean other countries should have an obligation to take in Afghans (or Nigerians, Mexicans or whoever else lives in a dysfunctional society), until it becomes just as messed up as the countries the "refugees" came from. And btw, asylum as it was originally intended was in no way about "security and means of livelihood" (i.e. "I come from a shitty place and I want a nicer life, hand over the benefits!")...it was about people who faced actual persecution (like "I'll end up in a concentration camp or the Gulag if you don't take me in"). Big difference.
    The very fact that the Catholic church thinks it should have anything to say about secular matters like immigration policy in its catechism is just its typical insufferable presumption again. "Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's"...yeah, obviously there is somewhat of a disagreement what's that supposed to mean.

    (and btw, why are so many people commenting here as "anon"? I find it rather annoying and am tempted not to reply to such comments in future anymore...how would the comments section look like if everyone did this? It's one thing not to use one's real name - I wouldn't do that either - but not even a fictional one?).

    Ironically, if Europeans hadn’t abandoned the Church’s teachings and lived actual Christian lives, none of these would be problems. The Euro population would be robust, young, confident in their culture and expanding, capable of absorbing and assimilating any refugees. Islam would be no threat and there would be no purpose for nasty neo-Nazism as some desperate reaction by dying peoples.

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  166. melanf says:
    @AP

    At least a hundred years Russian largest ethnic group in Crimea.
     
    Correct. Good thing I never disputed this.

    I wrote this about Crimea: "Because a place whose Russian majority is only 70 years old and is due to the mass deportation of the actual natives, is equivalent to a place whose majority population actually consists of the indigenous inhabitants."

    In 1917 41.2% Russian, 28.7 % of the Crimean Tatars in 1939 at 49.6 % Russian, 19.4% of the Crimean Tatars. In 2014, 68% of Russians and 12% Tatars.
     
    And in 1897, 33.1% Russians and 35.6% Tatars.

    Without the destruction of Russian by the Germans (and Tatar collaborationists) and without a deportation (in response) Tatars, the demographics of Crimea would be about the same.
     
    So a little bit less than 50% Russian?

    In 1939 there were 558,481 Russians in Crimea. In 1959 there were 858,273 Russians in Crimea. And zero Tatars. Looks like German destruction of Russians in Crimea didn't lower the Russian population there. But the Soviet destruction of Tatars eliminated the Tatar population.

    Sorry if math is bad for you.
     
    It is not - it confirms what I have written and shows that you are wrong, as usual.

    Well modern Russian is formed as a mixture of proto-Slavs with the Scythians and Alans (the ancient inhabitants of the Crimea)
     
    And Finns.

    Are those Scythians and Alans Crimean ones, or rather those who settled in the steppes north of Crimea and mixed with the pro-Slav around those parts.

    later Russian (near black sea) assimilate the part of the local Greeks and the last Ostrogoths (both ethnos – Orthodox)
     
    Is this the kind of nonsense Russian svidomists are now learning in the Russian schools?

    Most of the Ostrogoths were assimilated by Tatars at the latest in the 17th century, long before Russians got there. Some visitors in the 1780s claimed they may have seen some Goths but these stories are like people seeing Welshmen among Indians in North America in 1800. The most detailed record of their speech comes not from when Russia annexed Crimea in 1780s but from a traveler in the 1560s.

    Catherine II deported the almost all the Crimean Greeks to the north shore of the Azov Sea in the 18th century.

    So, no significant Gothic or Greek descent among the Russian colonists.

    In contrast, Crimean Tatars are 40%-45% Asian (who invaded in the 14th century) and the rest - native, who had been there for thousands of years.

    Similarly, Russian and Tatar equally natives of Crimea.
     
    Nonsense, see above.

    However what does this have to do with the rights? You want to give America to the Indians, and Israel – to the Arabs?
     
    Jews were in Israel before Arabs. Crimean Tatars in Crimea before Russians. Most of America has been over 50% European for 200 years. Crimea Russian, for only 70 years. USA is .8% Native American. Crimea is 11% native Tatar. It's a silly comparison.

    Without the destruction of Russian by the Germans (and Tatar collaborationists) and without a deportation (in response) Tatars, the demographics of Crimea would be about the same.
    So a little bit less than 50% Russian?

    In a hypothetical alternate universe (where world history went without the destruction of Russian by the Germans (and Tatar collaborationists) and without a deportation (in response) Tatars) the demographics of Crimea appears pretty much as it is today. The Russian population moved to the Crimea (for its climate), and some of the Tatars went to Moscow, Leningrad, Sochi etc. Additionally, the proliferation of intermarriage will lead to assimilation. The share of Russian (and Ukrainian) population (in population of Crimea) would be increased, and the share of the Tatar would fall (a trend which was observed before 1941). In the end, the result would be something like today..

    In 1939 there were 558,481 Russians in Crimea. In 1959 there were 858,273 Russians in Crimea. And zero Tatars. Looks like German destruction of Russians in Crimea didn’t lower the Russian population there.
    But the Soviet destruction of Tatars eliminated the Tatar population.

    Because the Russian won, and the Germans (and their Tatar servants) lost

    Well modern Russian is formed as a mixture of proto-Slavs with the Scythians and Alans (the ancient inhabitants of the Crimea)

    Are those Scythians and Alans Crimean ones, or rather those who settled in the steppes north of Crimea and mixed with the pro-Slav around those parts.

    Yes Crimean ones. Nomads roamed for thousands of years of history across the steppes, including the Crimea – they didn’t have a permanent site as sedentary agriculturalists (of course different tribes of nomads had “their” land for roam, but these land changing quickly over the centuries)

    later Russian (near black sea) assimilate the part of the local Greeks and the last Ostrogoths (both ethnos – Orthodox)

    Is this the kind of nonsense Russian svidomists are now learning in the Russian schools?
    Most of the Ostrogoths were assimilated by Tatars at the latest in the 17th century,

    Is this the kind of nonsense Ucrainian svidomists are now learning in the Ucrainian schools?
    Orthodox Goths were assimilated by the Orthodox population of the Crimea (but not Muslims). Later this population was partially assimilated by the Orthodox Russians (and Ukrainians).

    In contrast, Crimean Tatars are 40%-45% Asian

    You see, from your “genetic” point of view (I don’t share this point of viev, but let’s use it), the Tatars have no rights in Europe (and in European Crimea) versus 100% Russian European or 90% European Ukrainians. It is confirms what I have written and shows that you are wrong, as usual.

    From my point of view, Russian and Tatar equally natives of Crimea, because at the time of formation of the Crimean Tatars, the Russian population were already present in Crimea
    From your “genetic” point of view Tatars – migrants everywhere in Europe (including the Crimea).

    However what does this have to do with the rights? You want to give America to the Indians, and Israel – to the Arabs?

    Jews were in Israel before Arabs. Crimean Tatars in Crimea before Russians. Most of America has been over 50% European for 200 years. Crimea Russian, for only 70 years. USA is .8% Native American. Crimea is 11% native Tatar. It’s a silly comparison.

    In Russian it’s called “вилять как уж под вилами”.
    And by the way, Palestinian Arabs are genetically closer to the Jews of king David than Ashkenazi (descendants of the Romans who converted to Judaism)

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  167. Pavlo says:
    @AP

    The angrier you get, the more the mask slips and you show yourself for the Bandera cultist you are.
     
    You elicit amusement (mixed with a little contempt), not anger. I think some Russian nationalist complaining about someone else not fighting somewhere, when there is a real cause for Russian nationalists to fight, is funny. Don't you care about the Russian children of Donbas?

    And nothing in my statements is suggestive of "Bandera cultism." Your Russian nationalism is showing, again.

    adulation of a gang of psycho murderers led by Voldemort’s retarded brother
     
    Okay, you have actually stumped me and made me curious - who specifically is supposed to be Voldemort's retarded brother here.

    yet you won’t go and fight for that creed
     
    Which creed? Amputating septic, Soviet infected Donbas from the Ukrainian body? This has been accomplished wonderfully without my help.

    During the Orange Revolution, the southern and eastern provinces threatened to break away. These areas were collectively referred to in Kiev as Південно-Східна Українська Автономна Республіка - PISUAR. I thought back then - dumping Donbas would be good, but it would be a shame to lose Kherson and the Black Sea coast, and major port of Odessa, cutting UKriane off from the sea. And Kharkiv is valuable also. But how to lose Donbas, while keeping all the rest?

    Well, somehow it has been accomplished. Even better - the ethnic Ukrainian parts of Donbas itself, with the gas deposits, have stayed in Ukraine. The country has lost exactly the parts that were most harmful to it, through a process that has further distanced the main body from the Sovok legacy and moved it further Westward. Well done.

    why it is that you find a baroque rubbish heap
     
    "Rubbish heap" in Pavlo's world:

    https://i.pinimg.com/736x/fa/56/09/fa56099c0eb81a8a5c3a2fd0735b3b37--lviv-ukraine-square.jpg

    question your own judgment when you visit Moldova 2.0
     
    "Moldova 2.0" in Pavlo's world:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yo7P75ma7Oo

    I watched a video of Chisinau, Moldova. Looks, actually, like a rather typical provincial Russian city. Are you from one of those? Not that they are bad places. Lviv is nicer than most cities in Russia, and has only been improving. Does it hurt you, Pavlo?

    and see ‘no evidence of failure’.
     
    Your various claims are certainly evidence of your personal failures, Pavlo.

    Denial of the bleeding obvious doesn’t help you o mighty Orkamungus. You’re positively fuming, that’s why you dropped the mask of civility and started salivating at the thought of Russian children terrorised by Orc artillery. Nor am I a Russian nationalist (or a Russian for that matter) – nationalism is weird and gay, for lack of a more cutting term, and it makes people weird and gay.

    Case in point: Ukrainian nationalism has you pretending that all those uncounted thousands of Orc looters died to get rid of Donbass. It has you posting tourist videos rather than admit that the Ukraine is poorer and more miserable than it was 2013. You know which other city ‘looks nice’? Pyongyang – smells better too, by all accounts.

    Really, PinnocchiOrc, who do you think you are fooling?

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    • Replies: @AP

    You’re positively fuming, that’s why you dropped the mask of civility and started salivating at the thought of Russian children terrorised by Orc artillery.
     
    More projection (well-established with you), nothing in my comments suggested happiness at Russian kids being killed.

    I was pointing out to you, Russian Nationalist: you have much more to fight for in Donbas than Ukrainian nationalists do. Your kids are being killed. Theirs aren't. And yet you sit behind a keyboard, letting your kids die...and hilariously bringing up why Ukrainians aren't volunteering to fight there.

    You won't you save your children, Pavlo?

    Nor am I a Russian nationalist (or a Russian for that matter)
     
    So you are just LARPing on the internet? Okay.

    Ukrainian nationalism has you pretending that all those uncounted thousands of Orc looters died to get rid of Donbass.
     
    Silly person, it is the Russian tools who died, so that Ukraine would be rid of Donbas.

    It has you posting tourist videos
     
    Videos of Lviv streets in 2017 show what the city looks like and contradicts your desperate claims about it being a poverty-stricken ruin.

    rather than admit that the Ukraine is poorer and more miserable than it was 2013
     
    The nicer parts of Ukraine, such as Lviv, are already a little bit wealthier than they were in 2013, and a lot less miserable. The bad Sovok parts are still a lot poorer, and poorer to a greater extent than the nice parts are wealthier, so the country average is indeed poorer.

    PinnocchiOrc
     
    What is with the Orcs? Here is a parade in Lviv in 2017:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zcd1Co7hXno

    Here is the Russian hero of Donbas, Motroroal Arsen Pavlov:

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CCO3vfDUMAEidzY.jpg

    Hmm..who is more Orclike? and which is a more Orcish environment, the charming cities of western Ukraine or the Donbas wastelands?
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  168. Pavlo says:
    @AP

    no foreigner ever becomes Ukrainian by desire
     
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Shevelov

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olena_Teliha

    Shevelov – German becomes Russian because the Great War is underway and the name ‘Schneider’ is uncomfortable. Against the background of Soviet Ukrainisation schemes becomes a Ukrainian language teacher and advocate. Serves as a Ukrainian collaborator to the Reich. Sticks with the Ukrainian shtick beyond that because that’s the career path fate had put him on.

    Teliga – Ukrainian. Lives in Kiev. Petliura and his moronic terrorists take over, she becomes a Ukrainian nationalist (well, not everybody can bet on the winning horse). Fails to accomplish anything worth mentioning, dies hilariously.

    How you think this proves your point I can’t imagine.

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    • Replies: @AP
    Since my reply apparently disappeared..

    You originally wrote:


    no foreigner ever becomes Ukrainian by desire

     

    Then you wrote:

    Shevelov – German becomes Russian because the Great War is underway and the name ‘Schneider’ is uncomfortable. Against the background of Soviet Ukrainisation schemes becomes a Ukrainian language teacher and advocate. Serves as a Ukrainian collaborator to the Reich. Sticks with the Ukrainian shtick beyond that because that’s the career path fate had put him on.
     
    Shevelov's father, a German-Russian general, decided to become Russian. Shevelov could have moved West alongside other Russian Whites, He chose to stay and become a Ukrainianist. Shevelov could have been evacuated East with other Sovoks. He chose to remain and engage in Ukrainianist activities.

    So clearly he desired to be a Ukrainian. Why are you dishonest about something that can be easily verified?


    Teliga – Ukrainian.
     
    Half-Ukrainian born in Moscow, chose to become a hardcore Ukrainian nationalist.

    Other foreigners who chose to become Ukrainians:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marko_Vovchok

    Russian who became a Ukrainian-language writer. Konstantin Leontiev actually preferred her work to that of Dostoyevsky.

    Volodymyr Antonovych - Polish nobleman who became a Ukrainian nationalist.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archduke_Wilhelm_of_Austria

    Hapsburg Archduke who became a Ukrainian, probably rebelling against his immediate family who had become Poles.

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  169. @utu
    It seems to me that there is a really easy solution to that problem

    Another easy libertarian solution. Don't you see that by opening this door it will lead to adoption and gays having children. This is the ultimate prize they want. Once they can indoctrinate children the whole damn infiltration of our values will never be reversed.

    This is the logical outcome of the state usurping spiritual and social authority. Once marriage is understood as a legal rather than spiritual or social institution, it became the business of courts and bureaucrats, and there was bound to be a battle about definitions. This battle has already been lost in many countries, probably irrevocably. Rather than suggesting any two people be allowed to marry, I am suggesting that the state get out of the marriage business before it does any further harm.

    In Russia, for example, where over 40% of people identify as Orthodox Christian, almost everyone gets married at the ЗАГС (a certain government office) and marriage in the Church is rare. I suspect this has to do with laziness. It requires little effort or commitment to get married at the ЗАГС, where getting married in the Church is a serious matter. Where is this going in the long run? Russia is also a liberal democracy, at least on paper, and it is not implausible that fifty years from now marriage in Russia will become as meaningless as it is in the West. If on the other hand the Russian state
    were to stop offering some perfunctory marriage ceremony at the ЗАГС, telling people who wanted to make a serious commitment and have a proper ceremony that they should do that in some traditional way.

    This is not a question of libertarianism, but rather of “legibility” versus “metis”, to use the language of Scott in Seeing like a State.

    Read More
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  170. @Anon
    Agree. The battle for redefinition of family is the battle for the foundational cell of Western Civ, the one civilization that told men like Charles V that he could only have one wife (Orthodox and Protestant did vary a bit on this) And that every man could have a castle in his home. Having half-won that battle, 'they' are on to the next one, the un-definition of "man or woman" which will render individuals incapable of rationally ordering a life, let alone a community. Internationally, the concept of patria protestad is being undermined, just in case some natural families hold on. The individual, wholly manipulable, alone against the State. Gender ideology, not a mentioned theme at Unz's, like communism, cannot prosper in the long run because it goes against natural law. However, it might hold its own for a couple of generations and cause incalculable suffering.

    I wonder why gender ideology and transhumanism are not even occasionally a theme at Unz's, though sometimes Sailer pokes fun at gays/lesbians.

    By letting the state define marriage you have already let them invade your castle. I’m suggesting we take away the right of the state to make that definition.

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  171. E says:
    @Mr. Hack
    I'm a 'Ukrainian nationalist' because I suggest that Putin backed the wrong horse in backing Yanukovich? Hasn't Karlin suggested the same himself, as have many other Russophiles?

    Your own commentary is just brilliant!

    You are definitely a Ukrainian nationalist. Who else would make a comment like this:

    http://www.unz.com/akarlin/putler-abuses-jewish-bodies/#comment-2055664

    I suppose you might also be a “Russian liberal” or Latvian nationalist, but they’re all on the same team anyway, supporting each other’s causes.

    You’re certainly not a “regular Westerner”, because Westerners aren’t familiar with those insults that you used (vatnik, sovok, neanderthalic Homo sovieticus). Your vocabulary gives you away.

    I personally think that, given how many comments you post here, it’s most likely that you’re being paid to do this. The other option is that you’re really, really into this political ideology stuff, perhaps to the detriment of other things in your life (I mean, it certainly would be for me if I posted that much).

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
    I don't think Mr. Hack is being paid to do anything, but he's definitely a de facto Ukrainian nationalist.

    I recall a comment from him (can't search for it now due to the function being broken) where he came out in favor of executing captured Donbass rebels - that is, not just the leaders, but the rank and file. That is not the general sentiment in the NAF wrt to the UAF "occupiers", and I would suspect that it is not even the general sentiment in the UAF towards NAF "terrorists."
    , @Mr. Hack
    Who the hell are you anyway to try and judge my motives, you sanctimonious periwinkle!
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  172. @AP

    You clearly have failed to read the news that both Poland and Hungary have been forced to accept the mandatory “refugee” (i.e. non white) resettlement quotas, despite all their protestations.
     
    Um, no they haven't. EU told them to take the refugees, they have not complied and said they wouldn't comply. Poland is the least Muslim and least African place in Europe.

    If the countries of central and Europe (including Ukraine) formed an alliance separate from both Russia and its Eurasian Customs Union, and the Western EU, it would be the most European place in the world.

    And it would be a place I’d be glad to take my family on vacation — at the very least.

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  173. @Mr. Hack

    You do know that joining the US gang of puppets that Ukraine will disappear faster than anything that Russia could ever muster?
     
    Ukraine has now been around for 26 years, and will not soon disappear - the Ukrainian people have shown that they're resilient and will not cower in front of a Russian aggressor. The sooner that Russia learns to respect its neighbor to the south, the sooner both countries will begin to prosper.

    Not resilient enough to have children and actually perpetuate their own families and nation. Kind of an important defect, no?

    I have been to Ukraine and am fond of Ukrainians, but their population is starting to drop faster. Precipitous and massive decline in the Ukrainian population is long underway already.

    There will be 15-20 million Ukrainians, or fewer, within the lifetime of readers here, not enough to be a meaningful economic, cultural, diplomatic, or military presence, and not enough to resist even briefly whatever Russia or any other middle to major power wants to do to them and their land.

    Population of Ukraine in 1993 at its peak: 52.2 million
    Today: TEN MILLION FEWER, only 42 million and still shrinking by 150,000 or more every year

    Sadly, Ukrainians are, literally, disappearing, whether Russia respects them or not. It’s not just emigration, it’s that on a widespread basis, Ukrainians, like other demoralized and confused white peoples, simply fail to have children.

    Read More
    • Replies: @RadicalCenter
    http://www.newsweek.com/nolan-peterson-why-ukraine-population-shrinking-559697
    , @AP

    I have been to Ukraine and am fond of Ukrainians, but their population is starting to drop faster. Precipitous and massive decline in the Ukrainian population is long underway already.
     
    Population drop varies by region. The most Soviet, dysfunctional regions have the lowest birth rate.

    Here's an interactive record by region:

    http://datatowel.in.ua/natural/birth-death-regions-historical

    In 2016 two provinces had more births than deaths and a third almost broke even. They are all in the West. Kiev City was the same.
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  174. @RadicalCenter
    Not resilient enough to have children and actually perpetuate their own families and nation. Kind of an important defect, no?

    I have been to Ukraine and am fond of Ukrainians, but their population is starting to drop faster. Precipitous and massive decline in the Ukrainian population is long underway already.

    There will be 15-20 million Ukrainians, or fewer, within the lifetime of readers here, not enough to be a meaningful economic, cultural, diplomatic, or military presence, and not enough to resist even briefly whatever Russia or any other middle to major power wants to do to them and their land.

    Population of Ukraine in 1993 at its peak: 52.2 million
    Today: TEN MILLION FEWER, only 42 million and still shrinking by 150,000 or more every year

    Sadly, Ukrainians are, literally, disappearing, whether Russia respects them or not. It's not just emigration, it's that on a widespread basis, Ukrainians, like other demoralized and confused white peoples, simply fail to have children.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Corvinus
    "Not resilient enough to have children and actually perpetuate their own families and nation. Kind of an important defect, no?"

    Assuming that Ukrainians as a whole who make this decision are not resilient and are defected as a result.

    "It’s not just emigration, it’s that on a widespread basis, Ukrainians, like other demoralized and confused white peoples, simply fail to have children."

    Maybe Ukrainians are not demoralized or confused, but are content and clear headed.
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  175. AP says:
    @Pavlo
    Shevelov - German becomes Russian because the Great War is underway and the name 'Schneider' is uncomfortable. Against the background of Soviet Ukrainisation schemes becomes a Ukrainian language teacher and advocate. Serves as a Ukrainian collaborator to the Reich. Sticks with the Ukrainian shtick beyond that because that's the career path fate had put him on.

    Teliga - Ukrainian. Lives in Kiev. Petliura and his moronic terrorists take over, she becomes a Ukrainian nationalist (well, not everybody can bet on the winning horse). Fails to accomplish anything worth mentioning, dies hilariously.

    How you think this proves your point I can't imagine.

    Since my reply apparently disappeared..

    You originally wrote:

    no foreigner ever becomes Ukrainian by desire

    Then you wrote:

    Shevelov – German becomes Russian because the Great War is underway and the name ‘Schneider’ is uncomfortable. Against the background of Soviet Ukrainisation schemes becomes a Ukrainian language teacher and advocate. Serves as a Ukrainian collaborator to the Reich. Sticks with the Ukrainian shtick beyond that because that’s the career path fate had put him on.

    Shevelov’s father, a German-Russian general, decided to become Russian. Shevelov could have moved West alongside other Russian Whites, He chose to stay and become a Ukrainianist. Shevelov could have been evacuated East with other Sovoks. He chose to remain and engage in Ukrainianist activities.

    So clearly he desired to be a Ukrainian. Why are you dishonest about something that can be easily verified?

    Teliga – Ukrainian.

    Half-Ukrainian born in Moscow, chose to become a hardcore Ukrainian nationalist.

    Other foreigners who chose to become Ukrainians:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marko_Vovchok

    Russian who became a Ukrainian-language writer. Konstantin Leontiev actually preferred her work to that of Dostoyevsky.

    Volodymyr Antonovych – Polish nobleman who became a Ukrainian nationalist.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archduke_Wilhelm_of_Austria

    Hapsburg Archduke who became a Ukrainian, probably rebelling against his immediate family who had become Poles.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Pavlo
    Failures and defectives. They didn't choose their ersatz Ukrainian identity, at best they drifted into it because they couldn't do any better (and Schneider/Shevelov/Whatever essentially had his chosen for him by USSR).

    And naturally the first names that came to you were a couple of no-account Reich bootlicks.
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  176. AP says:
    @RadicalCenter
    Not resilient enough to have children and actually perpetuate their own families and nation. Kind of an important defect, no?

    I have been to Ukraine and am fond of Ukrainians, but their population is starting to drop faster. Precipitous and massive decline in the Ukrainian population is long underway already.

    There will be 15-20 million Ukrainians, or fewer, within the lifetime of readers here, not enough to be a meaningful economic, cultural, diplomatic, or military presence, and not enough to resist even briefly whatever Russia or any other middle to major power wants to do to them and their land.

    Population of Ukraine in 1993 at its peak: 52.2 million
    Today: TEN MILLION FEWER, only 42 million and still shrinking by 150,000 or more every year

    Sadly, Ukrainians are, literally, disappearing, whether Russia respects them or not. It's not just emigration, it's that on a widespread basis, Ukrainians, like other demoralized and confused white peoples, simply fail to have children.

    I have been to Ukraine and am fond of Ukrainians, but their population is starting to drop faster. Precipitous and massive decline in the Ukrainian population is long underway already.

    Population drop varies by region. The most Soviet, dysfunctional regions have the lowest birth rate.

    Here’s an interactive record by region:

    http://datatowel.in.ua/natural/birth-death-regions-historical

    In 2016 two provinces had more births than deaths and a third almost broke even. They are all in the West. Kiev City was the same.

    Read More
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  177. AP says:
    @Pavlo
    Denial of the bleeding obvious doesn't help you o mighty Orkamungus. You're positively fuming, that's why you dropped the mask of civility and started salivating at the thought of Russian children terrorised by Orc artillery. Nor am I a Russian nationalist (or a Russian for that matter) - nationalism is weird and gay, for lack of a more cutting term, and it makes people weird and gay.

    Case in point: Ukrainian nationalism has you pretending that all those uncounted thousands of Orc looters died to get rid of Donbass. It has you posting tourist videos rather than admit that the Ukraine is poorer and more miserable than it was 2013. You know which other city 'looks nice'? Pyongyang - smells better too, by all accounts.

    Really, PinnocchiOrc, who do you think you are fooling?

    You’re positively fuming, that’s why you dropped the mask of civility and started salivating at the thought of Russian children terrorised by Orc artillery.

    More projection (well-established with you), nothing in my comments suggested happiness at Russian kids being killed.

    I was pointing out to you, Russian Nationalist: you have much more to fight for in Donbas than Ukrainian nationalists do. Your kids are being killed. Theirs aren’t. And yet you sit behind a keyboard, letting your kids die…and hilariously bringing up why Ukrainians aren’t volunteering to fight there.

    You won’t you save your children, Pavlo?

    Nor am I a Russian nationalist (or a Russian for that matter)

    So you are just LARPing on the internet? Okay.

    Ukrainian nationalism has you pretending that all those uncounted thousands of Orc looters died to get rid of Donbass.

    Silly person, it is the Russian tools who died, so that Ukraine would be rid of Donbas.

    It has you posting tourist videos

    Videos of Lviv streets in 2017 show what the city looks like and contradicts your desperate claims about it being a poverty-stricken ruin.

    rather than admit that the Ukraine is poorer and more miserable than it was 2013

    The nicer parts of Ukraine, such as Lviv, are already a little bit wealthier than they were in 2013, and a lot less miserable. The bad Sovok parts are still a lot poorer, and poorer to a greater extent than the nice parts are wealthier, so the country average is indeed poorer.

    PinnocchiOrc

    What is with the Orcs? Here is a parade in Lviv in 2017:

    Here is the Russian hero of Donbas, Motroroal Arsen Pavlov:

    Hmm..who is more Orclike? and which is a more Orcish environment, the charming cities of western Ukraine or the Donbas wastelands?

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    • Replies: @Pavlo
    You just can't resist putting your demented Orc mindset on display can you? Dead kids, dead kids, dead kids, dead kids - no doubt you're typing this with your zipper undone.

    Give up you blowhard - by your own admission you had every chance to fight for the Ukraine. For what you claim to believe. You wouldn't do it. You won't even live there.

    So you are just LARPing on the internet? Okay.
     
    You LARP. I mock your delusions because it's funny.

    Silly person, it is the Russian tools who died, so that Ukraine would be rid of Donbas.
     
    You know, I overrated you. You're dumber than the other fellow. Thousands of Ukrainian military personnel died in a campaign that was launched to recover Donbass. Thousands of young men lost to Ukraine forever, and it was all for nothing because the war failed. The man who looks at this and concludes that it is a victory is an insane moron.

    The nicer parts of Ukraine, such as Lviv, are already a little bit wealthier than they were in 2013, and a lot less miserable
     
    No they aren't, nor will they ever be. That's why you don't live there, remember?

    Sovok
     
    Set the achievements of the 'Soviet man' against the Ukrainian Orc. The latter is all lost wars, failed rebellions and peasant literature compilations. The Sovok is your absolute superior - he defeated you both in war and in peace.

    What is with the Orcs?
     
    Fittingly describes the Ukrainian nationalist in a single word.

    who is more Orclike?
     
    http://voicesevas.ru/img/5a4fe65536c507d0268a0afd35f97b4d.jpg

    and which is a more Orcish environment
     
    The baroque rubbish heap, infested by primitives squatting in the houses of butchered Polacks.
    , @Anatoly Karlin
    Restoring my comment:

    Which is more orclike?
     
    These batallions are going to be led by strong-jawed alpha males like Motorola, not latte-sipping eurogays.

    http://fakty.ictv.ua/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/08/maxresdefault-e1473353149355.jpg

    Tornado

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/11/Igor_Mosiychuk.jpg

    Azov (okay maybe not, that's more Jabba the Hut territory)

    http://www.mk.ru/upload/objects/articles/detailPicture/ed/5a/55/ce/8901027_1169534.jpg

    Donbass (okay, not an Orc... a squig)

    https://s9.stc.all.kpcdn.net/share/i/4/777189/wx1080.jpg

    Beauty and the Beasts.

    Speaking of important siloviks - there was also that Kiev prosecutor or head of police who looked like the twin brother of Der Untermensch from the famous Nazi poster but with a swastika tattoo on the neck. Can't find it now, but he looked distinctly Orcish.

    Edit: AP replied with a photo of the Kiev chief of police, who looks like a Viking - obviously not the one I had in mind. Possibly the prosecutor, then.
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  178. Pavlo says:
    @AP
    Since my reply apparently disappeared..

    You originally wrote:


    no foreigner ever becomes Ukrainian by desire

     

    Then you wrote:

    Shevelov – German becomes Russian because the Great War is underway and the name ‘Schneider’ is uncomfortable. Against the background of Soviet Ukrainisation schemes becomes a Ukrainian language teacher and advocate. Serves as a Ukrainian collaborator to the Reich. Sticks with the Ukrainian shtick beyond that because that’s the career path fate had put him on.
     
    Shevelov's father, a German-Russian general, decided to become Russian. Shevelov could have moved West alongside other Russian Whites, He chose to stay and become a Ukrainianist. Shevelov could have been evacuated East with other Sovoks. He chose to remain and engage in Ukrainianist activities.

    So clearly he desired to be a Ukrainian. Why are you dishonest about something that can be easily verified?


    Teliga – Ukrainian.
     
    Half-Ukrainian born in Moscow, chose to become a hardcore Ukrainian nationalist.

    Other foreigners who chose to become Ukrainians:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marko_Vovchok

    Russian who became a Ukrainian-language writer. Konstantin Leontiev actually preferred her work to that of Dostoyevsky.

    Volodymyr Antonovych - Polish nobleman who became a Ukrainian nationalist.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archduke_Wilhelm_of_Austria

    Hapsburg Archduke who became a Ukrainian, probably rebelling against his immediate family who had become Poles.

    Failures and defectives. They didn’t choose their ersatz Ukrainian identity, at best they drifted into it because they couldn’t do any better (and Schneider/Shevelov/Whatever essentially had his chosen for him by USSR).

    And naturally the first names that came to you were a couple of no-account Reich bootlicks.

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  179. @The Big Red Scary
    I’m confused about the use of the word “poz”. I thought it came from gay “culture”, meaning sympathy for people who are HIV positive, maybe even to the degree of having sex with them, and that right-wingers used it to disapprove of the “celebration” of LGBTQXYZ. Surely here it is being used more broadly? I mean, Anglicans, sure, but Hungarian Catholics!?

    By the way, what exactly do right-wing atheists, as opposed to conservative religious people, have against the poz in the above sense? Is it just “icky”?

    Poz is the cultural Marxist virus. It mostly aims at the immune system of society, so that it won’t be able to throw out alien bodies. So it’s similar to HIV. Most of the rot that we can see in our societies is not a direct effect of the virus, instead they are opportunistic infections, like black crime or Muslim immigration. But immune system is so fatally weakened that it can no longer handle what should be a fairly easy job.

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  180. @The Big Red Scary
    “I’m not even totally against some form of official recognition for homosexual partnerships.”

    It seems to me that there is a really easy solution to that problem: governments stop handing out marriage licenses and start handing out civil partnerships between any two consenting adults. Such relationships could even be totally asexual. The point is simply that there should be a way for any two adults to share legal responsibility for each other if they so choose: right of attorney, of inheritance, and so on. Since governments aren’t going to do this, perhaps it can be arranged via blockchain.
    (Completey apart from this, there is old-fashioned marriage in the religious sense, which of course still exists.)

    Of course people having wreckless sexual intercourse is insane, and there is nothing to celebrate about it. As for one being expected in “polite society” to celebrate LGBTQXYZ, I agree it is unreasonable. So far as I can tell, all of these behaviors are the result of neurological abnormality, like autism or schizophrenia. (In fact, they are correlated.) While I am empathetic to neurologically abnormal people, and certainly wish to extend to them the protection of the law, the existence of such abnormality is hardly a reason for rejoicing.

    It seems to me that there is a really easy solution to that problem: governments stop handing out marriage licenses and start handing out civil partnerships between any two consenting adults

    And then what about adoption?

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    • Replies: @The Big Red Scary
    Adoption is a separate issue. I would argue a simple, conservative point: all else being equal, it is probably better for children in a given society to grow up in the same kind of family structure in which their ancestors did. So in western societies, this means that usually children should be adopted into families headed by a stable man/woman pair. In order to signal such stability, there should be certain minimal provisions in the man/woman contract making the pair suitable candidates for adopting children.

    To be honest, although all else being equal I rather don’t like the idea of homosexual couples adopting children, I have to admit that I’m not aware of any evidence that it has long term bad consequences for the children. Are there any twin studies in which one twin was raised by a homosexual pair and the other by a straight pair? But given that homosexuality is probably caused by some neurological abnormality, I’d be curious to know if there are increased rates of pyschiatrics disorders associated with homosexuality.

    My intuition would be that someone raised by a homosexual pair is more likely to be very PC but no more likely to actually be homosexual. Given that around 3% of the western population is homosexual, and not every homosexual wants to or will adopt, it seems that this is a minor concern.

    I say “all else being equal”, because I personally know two examples of stable, relatively modest homosexual couples, each with an adopted child (one in the US, one in Europe), and they seem to do a reasonable job of child rearing. However abnormal, a stable homosexual couple probably provides a better home than an unstable straight couple.

    But as a matter of public policy, again, I would make the above conservative argument: better to provide a normal environment than to do experiments with some poor abandoned child.
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  181. The commenter 5371 asserted in a now lost comment that the right’s electoral dominance continued to grow in Poland and Hungary.

    I don’t know about Poland, but in Hungary it’s true that the dominance is almost total (almost two thirds of the voters if we include Jobbik, which by the way is moving to the left, so now it’s barely to the right of Fidesz, if at all), however:

    1) it’s not growing, it’s roughly at the same (very high) level since 2010, and

    2) it’s collapsing among people with the highest education level, which could be a leading indicator

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin

    2) it’s collapsing among people with the highest education level, which could be a leading indicator
     
    This would indeed seem to be very important.

    Since the high IQ will on average win more arguments than they lose, and since social progress (or regress) - however you define either - is dependent on who wins arguments, their values and prefences will eventually become universalized (unless they are highly maladaptive).
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  182. Pavlo says:
    @AP

    You’re positively fuming, that’s why you dropped the mask of civility and started salivating at the thought of Russian children terrorised by Orc artillery.
     
    More projection (well-established with you), nothing in my comments suggested happiness at Russian kids being killed.

    I was pointing out to you, Russian Nationalist: you have much more to fight for in Donbas than Ukrainian nationalists do. Your kids are being killed. Theirs aren't. And yet you sit behind a keyboard, letting your kids die...and hilariously bringing up why Ukrainians aren't volunteering to fight there.

    You won't you save your children, Pavlo?

    Nor am I a Russian nationalist (or a Russian for that matter)
     
    So you are just LARPing on the internet? Okay.

    Ukrainian nationalism has you pretending that all those uncounted thousands of Orc looters died to get rid of Donbass.
     
    Silly person, it is the Russian tools who died, so that Ukraine would be rid of Donbas.

    It has you posting tourist videos
     
    Videos of Lviv streets in 2017 show what the city looks like and contradicts your desperate claims about it being a poverty-stricken ruin.

    rather than admit that the Ukraine is poorer and more miserable than it was 2013
     
    The nicer parts of Ukraine, such as Lviv, are already a little bit wealthier than they were in 2013, and a lot less miserable. The bad Sovok parts are still a lot poorer, and poorer to a greater extent than the nice parts are wealthier, so the country average is indeed poorer.

    PinnocchiOrc
     
    What is with the Orcs? Here is a parade in Lviv in 2017:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zcd1Co7hXno

    Here is the Russian hero of Donbas, Motroroal Arsen Pavlov:

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CCO3vfDUMAEidzY.jpg

    Hmm..who is more Orclike? and which is a more Orcish environment, the charming cities of western Ukraine or the Donbas wastelands?

    You just can’t resist putting your demented Orc mindset on display can you? Dead kids, dead kids, dead kids, dead kids – no doubt you’re typing this with your zipper undone.

    Give up you blowhard – by your own admission you had every chance to fight for the Ukraine. For what you claim to believe. You wouldn’t do it. You won’t even live there.

    So you are just LARPing on the internet? Okay.

    You LARP. I mock your delusions because it’s funny.

    Silly person, it is the Russian tools who died, so that Ukraine would be rid of Donbas.

    You know, I overrated you. You’re dumber than the other fellow. Thousands of Ukrainian military personnel died in a campaign that was launched to recover Donbass. Thousands of young men lost to Ukraine forever, and it was all for nothing because the war failed. The man who looks at this and concludes that it is a victory is an insane moron.

    The nicer parts of Ukraine, such as Lviv, are already a little bit wealthier than they were in 2013, and a lot less miserable

    No they aren’t, nor will they ever be. That’s why you don’t live there, remember?

    Sovok

    Set the achievements of the ‘Soviet man’ against the Ukrainian Orc. The latter is all lost wars, failed rebellions and peasant literature compilations. The Sovok is your absolute superior – he defeated you both in war and in peace.

    What is with the Orcs?

    Fittingly describes the Ukrainian nationalist in a single word.

    who is more Orclike?

    and which is a more Orcish environment

    The baroque rubbish heap, infested by primitives squatting in the houses of butchered Polacks.

    Read More
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  183. @reiner Tor

    It seems to me that there is a really easy solution to that problem: governments stop handing out marriage licenses and start handing out civil partnerships between any two consenting adults
     
    And then what about adoption?

    Adoption is a separate issue. I would argue a simple, conservative point: all else being equal, it is probably better for children in a given society to grow up in the same kind of family structure in which their ancestors did. So in western societies, this means that usually children should be adopted into families headed by a stable man/woman pair. In order to signal such stability, there should be certain minimal provisions in the man/woman contract making the pair suitable candidates for adopting children.

    To be honest, although all else being equal I rather don’t like the idea of homosexual couples adopting children, I have to admit that I’m not aware of any evidence that it has long term bad consequences for the children. Are there any twin studies in which one twin was raised by a homosexual pair and the other by a straight pair? But given that homosexuality is probably caused by some neurological abnormality, I’d be curious to know if there are increased rates of pyschiatrics disorders associated with homosexuality.

    My intuition would be that someone raised by a homosexual pair is more likely to be very PC but no more likely to actually be homosexual. Given that around 3% of the western population is homosexual, and not every homosexual wants to or will adopt, it seems that this is a minor concern.

    I say “all else being equal”, because I personally know two examples of stable, relatively modest homosexual couples, each with an adopted child (one in the US, one in Europe), and they seem to do a reasonable job of child rearing. However abnormal, a stable homosexual couple probably provides a better home than an unstable straight couple.

    But as a matter of public policy, again, I would make the above conservative argument: better to provide a normal environment than to do experiments with some poor abandoned child.

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    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    Look, you might design a very nice society by introducing sweeping changes like "abolishing government recognized marriage" or "separately regulating adoption", but currently the government does regulate both, and it's unlikely to change either. The two are also connected, since in most countries only married couples are allowed to adopt, and in any event it's quite unconceivable that homosexuals will be discriminated as such in adoption when they are allowed to "marry".

    Are there any twin studies in which one twin was raised by a homosexual pair and the other by a straight pair?
     
    You don't need twin studies, it's enough to do large enough samples of adopted children.

    a stable homosexual couple probably provides a better home than an unstable straight couple
     
    Maybe that's true (I'm not sure, to be honest), they are just less stable than heterosexual couples. (That's what Regnerus's study found, too.) Gay men also don't marry much.

    There are also things like the vast majority of pedophiles are male, while only 50% of the victims are girls. So homosexuals are vastly overrepresented among pedophiles. They also casually engage in a host of paraphilias (commonly known as sexual perversions). It's probably quite a bit easier for a homosexual pedophile to find another one, get married, and then adopt some children for abuse. Yes, it does exist among heterosexuals, but its prevalence must be much lower. The few heterosexual pedophiles (in absolute numbers still roughly the same as homosexual pedophiles) won't find a wife who will be in on it. At any rate, only very few of them will find such a female partner.
    , @reiner Tor
    Homosexuals are also more likely to have extremely large numbers of partners, and as a result, are more likely to carry sexually transmitted diseases. Yes, even homosexuals who have a lower number of partners will likely meet a few with a very high number of partner count, so basically any homosexual (except if it's a couple whose members have only had sex with each other) is more likely to be the carrier of such a disease. Unfortunately, those infections are also likely to tamper with our brains, which means that this could be one reason for the many seeming pathologies of gays. (The whole thing might, by the way, be caused by a bug.)
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  184. @The Big Red Scary
    Adoption is a separate issue. I would argue a simple, conservative point: all else being equal, it is probably better for children in a given society to grow up in the same kind of family structure in which their ancestors did. So in western societies, this means that usually children should be adopted into families headed by a stable man/woman pair. In order to signal such stability, there should be certain minimal provisions in the man/woman contract making the pair suitable candidates for adopting children.

    To be honest, although all else being equal I rather don’t like the idea of homosexual couples adopting children, I have to admit that I’m not aware of any evidence that it has long term bad consequences for the children. Are there any twin studies in which one twin was raised by a homosexual pair and the other by a straight pair? But given that homosexuality is probably caused by some neurological abnormality, I’d be curious to know if there are increased rates of pyschiatrics disorders associated with homosexuality.

    My intuition would be that someone raised by a homosexual pair is more likely to be very PC but no more likely to actually be homosexual. Given that around 3% of the western population is homosexual, and not every homosexual wants to or will adopt, it seems that this is a minor concern.

    I say “all else being equal”, because I personally know two examples of stable, relatively modest homosexual couples, each with an adopted child (one in the US, one in Europe), and they seem to do a reasonable job of child rearing. However abnormal, a stable homosexual couple probably provides a better home than an unstable straight couple.

    But as a matter of public policy, again, I would make the above conservative argument: better to provide a normal environment than to do experiments with some poor abandoned child.

    Look, you might design a very nice society by introducing sweeping changes like “abolishing government recognized marriage” or “separately regulating adoption”, but currently the government does regulate both, and it’s unlikely to change either. The two are also connected, since in most countries only married couples are allowed to adopt, and in any event it’s quite unconceivable that homosexuals will be discriminated as such in adoption when they are allowed to “marry”.

    Are there any twin studies in which one twin was raised by a homosexual pair and the other by a straight pair?

    You don’t need twin studies, it’s enough to do large enough samples of adopted children.

    a stable homosexual couple probably provides a better home than an unstable straight couple

    Maybe that’s true (I’m not sure, to be honest), they are just less stable than heterosexual couples. (That’s what Regnerus’s study found, too.) Gay men also don’t marry much.

    There are also things like the vast majority of pedophiles are male, while only 50% of the victims are girls. So homosexuals are vastly overrepresented among pedophiles. They also casually engage in a host of paraphilias (commonly known as sexual perversions). It’s probably quite a bit easier for a homosexual pedophile to find another one, get married, and then adopt some children for abuse. Yes, it does exist among heterosexuals, but its prevalence must be much lower. The few heterosexual pedophiles (in absolute numbers still roughly the same as homosexual pedophiles) won’t find a wife who will be in on it. At any rate, only very few of them will find such a female partner.

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    • Replies: @The Big Red Scary
    I’m not interested in designing a very nice society, since every attempt at doing that in the past has been a miserable failure. And if you live in a society that frowns upon homosexual relationships, then keep up the good work. I’m simply warning that homosexual marriage is one logical outcome of a legalistic institution of marriage, divorced from its roots in community norms. As Nietzsche said, the raising of one altar requires the tearing down of another.

    As for adoption, I think the simple, conservative argument that I gave (play it on the safe side and don’t experiment with children) is more convincing than trying to compare the absolute number of homosexual versus heterosexual pedophiles wanting to adopt children.

    By the way, it’s a good thing that Regnerus did that study, but it seems to address a different issue than the one we are discussing, and many of the results would seem to be consistent with those kids inheriting their problems from their parents (as opposed to learning them).
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  185. @The Big Red Scary
    Adoption is a separate issue. I would argue a simple, conservative point: all else being equal, it is probably better for children in a given society to grow up in the same kind of family structure in which their ancestors did. So in western societies, this means that usually children should be adopted into families headed by a stable man/woman pair. In order to signal such stability, there should be certain minimal provisions in the man/woman contract making the pair suitable candidates for adopting children.

    To be honest, although all else being equal I rather don’t like the idea of homosexual couples adopting children, I have to admit that I’m not aware of any evidence that it has long term bad consequences for the children. Are there any twin studies in which one twin was raised by a homosexual pair and the other by a straight pair? But given that homosexuality is probably caused by some neurological abnormality, I’d be curious to know if there are increased rates of pyschiatrics disorders associated with homosexuality.

    My intuition would be that someone raised by a homosexual pair is more likely to be very PC but no more likely to actually be homosexual. Given that around 3% of the western population is homosexual, and not every homosexual wants to or will adopt, it seems that this is a minor concern.

    I say “all else being equal”, because I personally know two examples of stable, relatively modest homosexual couples, each with an adopted child (one in the US, one in Europe), and they seem to do a reasonable job of child rearing. However abnormal, a stable homosexual couple probably provides a better home than an unstable straight couple.

    But as a matter of public policy, again, I would make the above conservative argument: better to provide a normal environment than to do experiments with some poor abandoned child.

    Homosexuals are also more likely to have extremely large numbers of partners, and as a result, are more likely to carry sexually transmitted diseases. Yes, even homosexuals who have a lower number of partners will likely meet a few with a very high number of partner count, so basically any homosexual (except if it’s a couple whose members have only had sex with each other) is more likely to be the carrier of such a disease. Unfortunately, those infections are also likely to tamper with our brains, which means that this could be one reason for the many seeming pathologies of gays. (The whole thing might, by the way, be caused by a bug.)

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  186. @reiner Tor
    The commenter 5371 asserted in a now lost comment that the right’s electoral dominance continued to grow in Poland and Hungary.

    I don’t know about Poland, but in Hungary it’s true that the dominance is almost total (almost two thirds of the voters if we include Jobbik, which by the way is moving to the left, so now it’s barely to the right of Fidesz, if at all), however:

    1) it’s not growing, it’s roughly at the same (very high) level since 2010, and

    2) it’s collapsing among people with the highest education level, which could be a leading indicator

    2) it’s collapsing among people with the highest education level, which could be a leading indicator

    This would indeed seem to be very important.

    Since the high IQ will on average win more arguments than they lose, and since social progress (or regress) – however you define either – is dependent on who wins arguments, their values and prefences will eventually become universalized (unless they are highly maladaptive).

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    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    Now I googled more Hungarian opinion polls, and the picture is less clear-cut than I thought. Fidesz traditionally used to be much stronger among college graduates, but this is no longer the case. However, due to their high levels of support, it might simply be a case of having reached a (very high) cap in this group. Also the results show a large variance (probably nobody bothers to ask large enough samples, or at least they don't make those public, because Hungary is not a big enough or rich enough country for that to be so important), and it's not clear that their support is weakening.

    On the other hand, I know a few people (college graduates, in well-paying jobs) who used to vote Fidesz since the late 1990s (when I and those people reached voting age), but who no longer do so. It was probably confirmation bias on my part that I remembered those polls which showed a sharp drop in support for them (another reason might be that the Hungarian news sites I frequent also show a leftist bias on average - I simply visit all major news sites, and they are mostly leftist), and didn't remember the ones which seemed to contradict them.

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  187. @E
    You are definitely a Ukrainian nationalist. Who else would make a comment like this:
    http://www.unz.com/akarlin/putler-abuses-jewish-bodies/#comment-2055664

    I suppose you might also be a "Russian liberal" or Latvian nationalist, but they're all on the same team anyway, supporting each other's causes.

    You're certainly not a "regular Westerner", because Westerners aren't familiar with those insults that you used (vatnik, sovok, neanderthalic Homo sovieticus). Your vocabulary gives you away.

    I personally think that, given how many comments you post here, it's most likely that you're being paid to do this. The other option is that you're really, really into this political ideology stuff, perhaps to the detriment of other things in your life (I mean, it certainly would be for me if I posted that much).

    I don’t think Mr. Hack is being paid to do anything, but he’s definitely a de facto Ukrainian nationalist.

    I recall a comment from him (can’t search for it now due to the function being broken) where he came out in favor of executing captured Donbass rebels – that is, not just the leaders, but the rank and file. That is not the general sentiment in the NAF wrt to the UAF “occupiers”, and I would suspect that it is not even the general sentiment in the UAF towards NAF “terrorists.”

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    • Replies: @Mr. Hack

    I recall a comment from him (can’t search for it now due to the function being broken) where he came out in favor of executing captured Donbass rebels – that is, not just the leaders, but the rank and file.
     
    I don't recall making any such statement, and even if I did, it was most likely made flippantly while in the process of conducting a heated discussion with one of the saner, level headed Russian nationalist types that flood your blog. Having Ukrainian national sympathies, I wouldn't think automatically elevates one to the vanguard of being a Ukrainian nationalist? I don't take an active part in any political party. You, on the other hand, Mr. Karlin, are a self described Russian nationalist who has even characterized yourself with prominent black shirted qualities. So, what do we have going on here then, perhaps the proverbial

    The pot calling the kettle black?
     
    , @Mr. Hack

    I recall a comment from him (can’t search for it now due to the function being broken) where he came out in favor of executing captured Donbass rebels – that is, not just the leaders, but the rank and file.
     
    I don't recall making any such statement, and even if I did, it was most likely elicited during an exchange here with one of the many intelligent and level headed Russian nationalist types that flock to your blog. How about you Mr. Karlin, you're a self described Russian nationalist with strong blackshirted tendencies, so calling me a Ukrainian nationalist is kind of like:

    the pot calling the kettle black.
     
    , @Mr. Hack
    Anatoly, why have you deleted my reply back to you twice now? Everything is respectful and above board. Are we entering a new phase of the cold war now, brother? :-)
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  188. @The Big Red Scary
    I’m confused about the use of the word “poz”. I thought it came from gay “culture”, meaning sympathy for people who are HIV positive, maybe even to the degree of having sex with them, and that right-wingers used it to disapprove of the “celebration” of LGBTQXYZ. Surely here it is being used more broadly? I mean, Anglicans, sure, but Hungarian Catholics!?

    By the way, what exactly do right-wing atheists, as opposed to conservative religious people, have against the poz in the above sense? Is it just “icky”?

    Restoring my comment about poz:

    I need to clarify my position on Poz.

    I oppose the Poz insofar as it is uncompetitive (indeed, it is hard to see how transexualism, or SJWism, or whatever, improve the situation at the individual, the national, or even the global level).

    Should it become competitive I will support it. Indeed, since the more pozzed societies will, in this scenario, win out in the Darwinian/Landian struggle for survival, then the ingredients of its success will no longer be considered to be pozzed by future generations (example: Adopting agriculture was pretty pozzed, since it resulted in the dimunition of height, physical fitness, etc. – the transition of men into bugmen, as #frogtwitter might call it – but in the millennia since, the bugmen won out over the hunter-gatherers).

    If SJWs can somehow prove to me that blatant Western-style cultural homosexualism will Make Russia Great Again I’ll be off the nearest LGBT parade.

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    • Replies: @The Big Red Scary
    Yeah, I had a reply to your comment, but can’t be bothered to try to reconstruct it.

    Here’s an idea how to use LBGTQs to Make Russia Great Again: put them on manned missions to Mars. They aren’t going to reproduce anyway.
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  189. bobjil says:
    @AP

    At least a hundred years. The Population Of Crimea:
    1917 — 749 800 people (41.2% Russian, 28.7 % of the Crimean Tatars, and 8.6 % Ukrainians, 6.4 % Jews, 4.9 % Germans, 2.9 % of Greeks, 1.6% of Armenians, Bulgarians 1.4%, 0.8% poles, 0.7 % of Turks)

    1920 — 718 900 (44,1 % Russians, 26 % of the Crimean Tatars, 7,4 % of Ukrainians, 6,7 % of the Jews, 5,9% Germans, 3.3 percent Greeks, and 1.7 % Armenian, 1.5% of Bulgarians, 0.8% China, 0.8% poles)

    1939 — 1 123 800 people (49,6 % Russian, 19.4% of the Crimean Tatars, 13.7% of Ukrainians, 5.8 % of the Jews, 4.5% of Germans, 1.8% of Greeks, Bulgarians 1.4%, 1.1% Armenian, 0.5% of poles)
     
    So in 1939 Russians were still less than 50% of Crimea's population.

    What changed after 1939?

    Russians (and Ukrainians) are the same the natives of the Crimea as Crimean Tatars
     
    And whites are the same natives of Hawaii as Polynesians.

    No doubt the Crimeans are actually elected Pro-Russian government
     
    No, the separatist party got under 10%; Crimeans were satisfied within Ukraine while Yanukovich was president.

    they conduct a free and fair referendum
     
    LOL.

    Union with Russia would have won, had there been a free and fair referendum. But this one wasn't either.

    Slavs have always live in the area. Tartars moved in the area in about in the 1400s for the Slav slave trade. They took it over in 1453 when the Byzantine empire was conquered. Greeks settled in Crimea in 500 BC. Crimean Greeks used to go the Olympics every four years during the ancient Greece era. So Tartars are native to Crimea as much as Spaniards and Portuguese in Latin America. They all arrived in their new lands in the 1400s.

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  190. @Anatoly Karlin
    Restoring my comment about poz:

    I need to clarify my position on Poz.

    I oppose the Poz insofar as it is uncompetitive (indeed, it is hard to see how transexualism, or SJWism, or whatever, improve the situation at the individual, the national, or even the global level).

    Should it become competitive I will support it. Indeed, since the more pozzed societies will, in this scenario, win out in the Darwinian/Landian struggle for survival, then the ingredients of its success will no longer be considered to be pozzed by future generations (example: Adopting agriculture was pretty pozzed, since it resulted in the dimunition of height, physical fitness, etc. - the transition of men into bugmen, as #frogtwitter might call it - but in the millennia since, the bugmen won out over the hunter-gatherers).
     
    If SJWs can somehow prove to me that blatant Western-style cultural homosexualism will Make Russia Great Again I'll be off the nearest LGBT parade.

    Yeah, I had a reply to your comment, but can’t be bothered to try to reconstruct it.

    Here’s an idea how to use LBGTQs to Make Russia Great Again: put them on manned missions to Mars. They aren’t going to reproduce anyway.

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    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
    I recall it was about Sub-Saharan Blacks being more competitive due to their higher TFRs but I don't really buy that.

    First, numbers aren't everything; second, they're in the midst of the demographic transition anyway.
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  191. @reiner Tor
    Look, you might design a very nice society by introducing sweeping changes like "abolishing government recognized marriage" or "separately regulating adoption", but currently the government does regulate both, and it's unlikely to change either. The two are also connected, since in most countries only married couples are allowed to adopt, and in any event it's quite unconceivable that homosexuals will be discriminated as such in adoption when they are allowed to "marry".

    Are there any twin studies in which one twin was raised by a homosexual pair and the other by a straight pair?
     
    You don't need twin studies, it's enough to do large enough samples of adopted children.

    a stable homosexual couple probably provides a better home than an unstable straight couple
     
    Maybe that's true (I'm not sure, to be honest), they are just less stable than heterosexual couples. (That's what Regnerus's study found, too.) Gay men also don't marry much.

    There are also things like the vast majority of pedophiles are male, while only 50% of the victims are girls. So homosexuals are vastly overrepresented among pedophiles. They also casually engage in a host of paraphilias (commonly known as sexual perversions). It's probably quite a bit easier for a homosexual pedophile to find another one, get married, and then adopt some children for abuse. Yes, it does exist among heterosexuals, but its prevalence must be much lower. The few heterosexual pedophiles (in absolute numbers still roughly the same as homosexual pedophiles) won't find a wife who will be in on it. At any rate, only very few of them will find such a female partner.

    I’m not interested in designing a very nice society, since every attempt at doing that in the past has been a miserable failure. And if you live in a society that frowns upon homosexual relationships, then keep up the good work. I’m simply warning that homosexual marriage is one logical outcome of a legalistic institution of marriage, divorced from its roots in community norms. As Nietzsche said, the raising of one altar requires the tearing down of another.

    As for adoption, I think the simple, conservative argument that I gave (play it on the safe side and don’t experiment with children) is more convincing than trying to compare the absolute number of homosexual versus heterosexual pedophiles wanting to adopt children.

    By the way, it’s a good thing that Regnerus did that study, but it seems to address a different issue than the one we are discussing, and many of the results would seem to be consistent with those kids inheriting their problems from their parents (as opposed to learning them).

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    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    Well, if children raised by their biological homosexual parents do worse because they inherited those problems from their biological homosexual parents, then that goes a long way in explaining why its undesirable to allow adoption by homosexual parents - they have, on average, quite a bit more problems (which their children then inherit) than heterosexual parents. In other words, they are an especially problematic group of people.

    But yes, your conservative argument is good enough. I was just replying to your point that there's currently little reason to think that homosexual couples will do a worse jobs of raising adopted children than heterosexual couples. I think we do have a few reasons to at least suspect that, for example that those couples tend to be less stable, or that all kinds of paraphilias etc. are more prevalent among them, that drug abuse or alcoholism is more prevalent among them, that they are more likely to end up in prison, they are more likely to be carriers of STIs (and the possible mental and physical issues that might cause), or that their life expectancy is lower (not a surprise, given all of the above), just to give you the easy ones.
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  192. @The Big Red Scary
    Yeah, I had a reply to your comment, but can’t be bothered to try to reconstruct it.

    Here’s an idea how to use LBGTQs to Make Russia Great Again: put them on manned missions to Mars. They aren’t going to reproduce anyway.

    I recall it was about Sub-Saharan Blacks being more competitive due to their higher TFRs but I don’t really buy that.

    First, numbers aren’t everything; second, they’re in the midst of the demographic transition anyway.

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    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    I also answered TBRS on that one. Basically, they are dependent on a pozzed West being the dominant power. Which is historically an aberration: pozzed societies didn't become dominant, and dominant powers which became pozzed never stayed dominant for long. We'll see how much reproductive success black Africans show once a non-pozzed power becomes dominant.
    , @The Big Red Scary
    My bigger points were that natural selection is a heartless bitch, that group selection is questionable as an explanation for anything, and that if we were rationally trying to optimize our reproductive success, we’d use our brains to make more money to support more children rather than complaining about the poz. Unfortunately, complaining about the poz is fun.

    The part about sub-Saharan Africans was a bit flippant, but even if the reproduction rates eventually converge to those of say the US, there are going to be probably more than 2 billion sub-Saharan Africans at that point, so they beat both Europeans and North Asians at the numbers game. Of course numbers aren’t everything. But we were discussing Darwinian competitiveness, not spiritual or even materialistic values.

    What is unknown is how much climate change will disrupt life in sub-Saharan Africa. It could be catastrophic.
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  193. @Anatoly Karlin
    I recall it was about Sub-Saharan Blacks being more competitive due to their higher TFRs but I don't really buy that.

    First, numbers aren't everything; second, they're in the midst of the demographic transition anyway.

    I also answered TBRS on that one. Basically, they are dependent on a pozzed West being the dominant power. Which is historically an aberration: pozzed societies didn’t become dominant, and dominant powers which became pozzed never stayed dominant for long. We’ll see how much reproductive success black Africans show once a non-pozzed power becomes dominant.

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    • Replies: @The Big Red Scary
    Pozzed or not, a number of countries, for example China, have incentives to help Africa develop economically. Barring catastrophic climate change (a real possibility), it is quite conceivable that Africa could eventually achieve some basic level of development allowing it to feed itself. It really doesn’t take that much.

    As for a “non-pozzed dominant power”, what do you think they are going to do? Deliberately undermine African development to cause widespread famine, and build a wall to keep out one billion starving refugees?

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  194. Mr. Hack says:
    @Anatoly Karlin
    I don't think Mr. Hack is being paid to do anything, but he's definitely a de facto Ukrainian nationalist.

    I recall a comment from him (can't search for it now due to the function being broken) where he came out in favor of executing captured Donbass rebels - that is, not just the leaders, but the rank and file. That is not the general sentiment in the NAF wrt to the UAF "occupiers", and I would suspect that it is not even the general sentiment in the UAF towards NAF "terrorists."

    I recall a comment from him (can’t search for it now due to the function being broken) where he came out in favor of executing captured Donbass rebels – that is, not just the leaders, but the rank and file.

    I don’t recall making any such statement, and even if I did, it was most likely made flippantly while in the process of conducting a heated discussion with one of the saner, level headed Russian nationalist types that flood your blog. Having Ukrainian national sympathies, I wouldn’t think automatically elevates one to the vanguard of being a Ukrainian nationalist? I don’t take an active part in any political party. You, on the other hand, Mr. Karlin, are a self described Russian nationalist who has even characterized yourself with prominent black shirted qualities. So, what do we have going on here then, perhaps the proverbial

    The pot calling the kettle black?

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  195. @The Big Red Scary
    I’m not interested in designing a very nice society, since every attempt at doing that in the past has been a miserable failure. And if you live in a society that frowns upon homosexual relationships, then keep up the good work. I’m simply warning that homosexual marriage is one logical outcome of a legalistic institution of marriage, divorced from its roots in community norms. As Nietzsche said, the raising of one altar requires the tearing down of another.

    As for adoption, I think the simple, conservative argument that I gave (play it on the safe side and don’t experiment with children) is more convincing than trying to compare the absolute number of homosexual versus heterosexual pedophiles wanting to adopt children.

    By the way, it’s a good thing that Regnerus did that study, but it seems to address a different issue than the one we are discussing, and many of the results would seem to be consistent with those kids inheriting their problems from their parents (as opposed to learning them).

    Well, if children raised by their biological homosexual parents do worse because they inherited those problems from their biological homosexual parents, then that goes a long way in explaining why its undesirable to allow adoption by homosexual parents – they have, on average, quite a bit more problems (which their children then inherit) than heterosexual parents. In other words, they are an especially problematic group of people.

    But yes, your conservative argument is good enough. I was just replying to your point that there’s currently little reason to think that homosexual couples will do a worse jobs of raising adopted children than heterosexual couples. I think we do have a few reasons to at least suspect that, for example that those couples tend to be less stable, or that all kinds of paraphilias etc. are more prevalent among them, that drug abuse or alcoholism is more prevalent among them, that they are more likely to end up in prison, they are more likely to be carriers of STIs (and the possible mental and physical issues that might cause), or that their life expectancy is lower (not a surprise, given all of the above), just to give you the easy ones.

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  196. @Anatoly Karlin

    2) it’s collapsing among people with the highest education level, which could be a leading indicator
     
    This would indeed seem to be very important.

    Since the high IQ will on average win more arguments than they lose, and since social progress (or regress) - however you define either - is dependent on who wins arguments, their values and prefences will eventually become universalized (unless they are highly maladaptive).

    Now I googled more Hungarian opinion polls, and the picture is less clear-cut than I thought. Fidesz traditionally used to be much stronger among college graduates, but this is no longer the case. However, due to their high levels of support, it might simply be a case of having reached a (very high) cap in this group. Also the results show a large variance (probably nobody bothers to ask large enough samples, or at least they don’t make those public, because Hungary is not a big enough or rich enough country for that to be so important), and it’s not clear that their support is weakening.

    On the other hand, I know a few people (college graduates, in well-paying jobs) who used to vote Fidesz since the late 1990s (when I and those people reached voting age), but who no longer do so. It was probably confirmation bias on my part that I remembered those polls which showed a sharp drop in support for them (another reason might be that the Hungarian news sites I frequent also show a leftist bias on average – I simply visit all major news sites, and they are mostly leftist), and didn’t remember the ones which seemed to contradict them.

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  197. Mr. Hack says:
    @E
    You are definitely a Ukrainian nationalist. Who else would make a comment like this:
    http://www.unz.com/akarlin/putler-abuses-jewish-bodies/#comment-2055664

    I suppose you might also be a "Russian liberal" or Latvian nationalist, but they're all on the same team anyway, supporting each other's causes.

    You're certainly not a "regular Westerner", because Westerners aren't familiar with those insults that you used (vatnik, sovok, neanderthalic Homo sovieticus). Your vocabulary gives you away.

    I personally think that, given how many comments you post here, it's most likely that you're being paid to do this. The other option is that you're really, really into this political ideology stuff, perhaps to the detriment of other things in your life (I mean, it certainly would be for me if I posted that much).

    Who the hell are you anyway to try and judge my motives, you sanctimonious periwinkle!

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  198. Mr. Hack says:
    @Anatoly Karlin
    I don't think Mr. Hack is being paid to do anything, but he's definitely a de facto Ukrainian nationalist.

    I recall a comment from him (can't search for it now due to the function being broken) where he came out in favor of executing captured Donbass rebels - that is, not just the leaders, but the rank and file. That is not the general sentiment in the NAF wrt to the UAF "occupiers", and I would suspect that it is not even the general sentiment in the UAF towards NAF "terrorists."

    I recall a comment from him (can’t search for it now due to the function being broken) where he came out in favor of executing captured Donbass rebels – that is, not just the leaders, but the rank and file.

    I don’t recall making any such statement, and even if I did, it was most likely elicited during an exchange here with one of the many intelligent and level headed Russian nationalist types that flock to your blog. How about you Mr. Karlin, you’re a self described Russian nationalist with strong blackshirted tendencies, so calling me a Ukrainian nationalist is kind of like:

    the pot calling the kettle black.

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  199. Mr. Hack says:
    @Anatoly Karlin
    I don't think Mr. Hack is being paid to do anything, but he's definitely a de facto Ukrainian nationalist.

    I recall a comment from him (can't search for it now due to the function being broken) where he came out in favor of executing captured Donbass rebels - that is, not just the leaders, but the rank and file. That is not the general sentiment in the NAF wrt to the UAF "occupiers", and I would suspect that it is not even the general sentiment in the UAF towards NAF "terrorists."

    Anatoly, why have you deleted my reply back to you twice now? Everything is respectful and above board. Are we entering a new phase of the cold war now, brother? :-)

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  200. @Anatoly Karlin
    I recall it was about Sub-Saharan Blacks being more competitive due to their higher TFRs but I don't really buy that.

    First, numbers aren't everything; second, they're in the midst of the demographic transition anyway.

    My bigger points were that natural selection is a heartless bitch, that group selection is questionable as an explanation for anything, and that if we were rationally trying to optimize our reproductive success, we’d use our brains to make more money to support more children rather than complaining about the poz. Unfortunately, complaining about the poz is fun.

    The part about sub-Saharan Africans was a bit flippant, but even if the reproduction rates eventually converge to those of say the US, there are going to be probably more than 2 billion sub-Saharan Africans at that point, so they beat both Europeans and North Asians at the numbers game. Of course numbers aren’t everything. But we were discussing Darwinian competitiveness, not spiritual or even materialistic values.

    What is unknown is how much climate change will disrupt life in sub-Saharan Africa. It could be catastrophic.

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  201. @reiner Tor
    I also answered TBRS on that one. Basically, they are dependent on a pozzed West being the dominant power. Which is historically an aberration: pozzed societies didn't become dominant, and dominant powers which became pozzed never stayed dominant for long. We'll see how much reproductive success black Africans show once a non-pozzed power becomes dominant.

    Pozzed or not, a number of countries, for example China, have incentives to help Africa develop economically. Barring catastrophic climate change (a real possibility), it is quite conceivable that Africa could eventually achieve some basic level of development allowing it to feed itself. It really doesn’t take that much.

    As for a “non-pozzed dominant power”, what do you think they are going to do? Deliberately undermine African development to cause widespread famine, and build a wall to keep out one billion starving refugees?

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  202. @AP

    You’re positively fuming, that’s why you dropped the mask of civility and started salivating at the thought of Russian children terrorised by Orc artillery.
     
    More projection (well-established with you), nothing in my comments suggested happiness at Russian kids being killed.

    I was pointing out to you, Russian Nationalist: you have much more to fight for in Donbas than Ukrainian nationalists do. Your kids are being killed. Theirs aren't. And yet you sit behind a keyboard, letting your kids die...and hilariously bringing up why Ukrainians aren't volunteering to fight there.

    You won't you save your children, Pavlo?

    Nor am I a Russian nationalist (or a Russian for that matter)
     
    So you are just LARPing on the internet? Okay.

    Ukrainian nationalism has you pretending that all those uncounted thousands of Orc looters died to get rid of Donbass.
     
    Silly person, it is the Russian tools who died, so that Ukraine would be rid of Donbas.

    It has you posting tourist videos
     
    Videos of Lviv streets in 2017 show what the city looks like and contradicts your desperate claims about it being a poverty-stricken ruin.

    rather than admit that the Ukraine is poorer and more miserable than it was 2013
     
    The nicer parts of Ukraine, such as Lviv, are already a little bit wealthier than they were in 2013, and a lot less miserable. The bad Sovok parts are still a lot poorer, and poorer to a greater extent than the nice parts are wealthier, so the country average is indeed poorer.

    PinnocchiOrc
     
    What is with the Orcs? Here is a parade in Lviv in 2017:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zcd1Co7hXno

    Here is the Russian hero of Donbas, Motroroal Arsen Pavlov:

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CCO3vfDUMAEidzY.jpg

    Hmm..who is more Orclike? and which is a more Orcish environment, the charming cities of western Ukraine or the Donbas wastelands?

    Restoring my comment:

    Which is more orclike?

    These batallions are going to be led by strong-jawed alpha males like Motorola, not latte-sipping eurogays.

    Tornado

    Azov (okay maybe not, that’s more Jabba the Hut territory)

    Donbass (okay, not an Orc… a squig)

    Beauty and the Beasts.

    Speaking of important siloviks – there was also that Kiev prosecutor or head of police who looked like the twin brother of Der Untermensch from the famous Nazi poster but with a swastika tattoo on the neck. Can’t find it now, but he looked distinctly Orcish.

    Edit: AP replied with a photo of the Kiev chief of police, who looks like a Viking – obviously not the one I had in mind. Possibly the prosecutor, then.

    Read More
    • Replies: @AP
    I'm not gonna redo my other posts but this one takes 2 minutes so..

    there was also that Kiev prosecutor or head of police who looked like the twin brother of Der Untermensch from the famous Nazi poster but with a swastika tattoo on the neck. Can’t find it now, but he looked distinctly Orcish.
     
    Vadim Troyan, the Azov guy who became chief of Kiev province's police, looks like a Viking, not orc:

    http://i.imgur.com/Ccmn9MS.jpg

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/ae/%D0%A2%D1%80%D0%BE%D1%8F%D0%BD%D0%92%D0%B0%D0%B4%D0%B8%D0%BC.jpg/1200px-%D0%A2%D1%80%D0%BE%D1%8F%D0%BD%D0%92%D0%B0%D0%B4%D0%B8%D0%BC.jpg

    Pavlov looks pretty orclike:

    http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-VO7pyaHwQlU/Vq9Xn1cJ8EI/AAAAAAAAYGc/cLP6Y9NTrCE/s1600/Arseny%2BPavlov%2BA.K.A%2BMotorola%2B2.jpeg

    An orc:

    https://i.pinimg.com/736x/3b/6b/a5/3b6ba5ac7fbd1a1478990856b8827c3e--ogre-fantasy-rpg.jpg
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  203. AP says:
    @Anatoly Karlin
    Restoring my comment:

    Which is more orclike?
     
    These batallions are going to be led by strong-jawed alpha males like Motorola, not latte-sipping eurogays.

    http://fakty.ictv.ua/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/08/maxresdefault-e1473353149355.jpg

    Tornado

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/11/Igor_Mosiychuk.jpg

    Azov (okay maybe not, that's more Jabba the Hut territory)

    http://www.mk.ru/upload/objects/articles/detailPicture/ed/5a/55/ce/8901027_1169534.jpg

    Donbass (okay, not an Orc... a squig)

    https://s9.stc.all.kpcdn.net/share/i/4/777189/wx1080.jpg

    Beauty and the Beasts.

    Speaking of important siloviks - there was also that Kiev prosecutor or head of police who looked like the twin brother of Der Untermensch from the famous Nazi poster but with a swastika tattoo on the neck. Can't find it now, but he looked distinctly Orcish.

    Edit: AP replied with a photo of the Kiev chief of police, who looks like a Viking - obviously not the one I had in mind. Possibly the prosecutor, then.

    I’m not gonna redo my other posts but this one takes 2 minutes so..

    there was also that Kiev prosecutor or head of police who looked like the twin brother of Der Untermensch from the famous Nazi poster but with a swastika tattoo on the neck. Can’t find it now, but he looked distinctly Orcish.

    Vadim Troyan, the Azov guy who became chief of Kiev province’s police, looks like a Viking, not orc:

    Pavlov looks pretty orclike:

    An orc:

    Read More
    • Replies: @Jon0815
    A few points in response to your now vanished reply to my now vanished post:

    Responding to to my statement that had the separatists been defeated, ethnic cleansing would likely have occurred throughout the DLNR, you argued that this was disproved by the "counter-examples" of Kharkiv, etc. But those places didn't revolt. Of course the Maidanists weren't just going to start shelling Kharkiv out of the blue, without the slightest pretext.

    Also, I noted that Ukraine has rejected Russia's proposal for UN peacekeepers on the line of contact, unless peacekeepers are also deployed on the completely peaceful DLNR/Russia border, which would prevent Russia from resupplying and reinforcing the rebels, and thereby enable Ukraine to invade the territory. You responded that to do so, the Ukrainian army would have to fight its way through the UN troops. But presumably the proposed peacekeeping force would only be large enough to act as an armed escort for OSCE inspectors, and deter the sort of sporadic low-level conflict we're seeing now. Probably less than 10,000 troops, without heavy weapons. Not a force that would be more than a speed bump, if they were actually crazy enough to try to stop an all-out attack by the 100,000+ troops Kiev has deployed there.

    And you're claimed that if Ukraine didn’t fight in Donbas, it would have been fighting in Kharkiv, etc. Why? At the time the "ATO" began, there was zero chance that the ragtag, hugely outnumbered and outgunned separatist army was going to drive to Dnipropetrovsk, Kharkiv, or anywhere beyond the territory they already controlled. Ukraine could have opted to take a defensive posture, similar to the one that exists along the line of contact now, and it's military casualties would have been far lower.

    As for your main argument, that Ukraine is better off without the "diseased" Donbas, because now it is more free to re-orient itself toward the West, that would be true if a Western orientation were actually in Ukraine's economic interest. But it's not. EU membership isn't happening. As long as Ukraine remains estranged from Russia, it will continue to stagnate, with GDP growth rates no better than Russia's, despite having only 20% of Russia's per capita GDP (down from 50% in 1991- Ukrainians should have listened to G.H.W Bush when he warned them against "suicidal nationalism").

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  204. Jon0815 says:
    @AP
    I'm not gonna redo my other posts but this one takes 2 minutes so..

    there was also that Kiev prosecutor or head of police who looked like the twin brother of Der Untermensch from the famous Nazi poster but with a swastika tattoo on the neck. Can’t find it now, but he looked distinctly Orcish.
     
    Vadim Troyan, the Azov guy who became chief of Kiev province's police, looks like a Viking, not orc:

    http://i.imgur.com/Ccmn9MS.jpg

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/ae/%D0%A2%D1%80%D0%BE%D1%8F%D0%BD%D0%92%D0%B0%D0%B4%D0%B8%D0%BC.jpg/1200px-%D0%A2%D1%80%D0%BE%D1%8F%D0%BD%D0%92%D0%B0%D0%B4%D0%B8%D0%BC.jpg

    Pavlov looks pretty orclike:

    http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-VO7pyaHwQlU/Vq9Xn1cJ8EI/AAAAAAAAYGc/cLP6Y9NTrCE/s1600/Arseny%2BPavlov%2BA.K.A%2BMotorola%2B2.jpeg

    An orc:

    https://i.pinimg.com/736x/3b/6b/a5/3b6ba5ac7fbd1a1478990856b8827c3e--ogre-fantasy-rpg.jpg

    A few points in response to your now vanished reply to my now vanished post:

    Responding to to my statement that had the separatists been defeated, ethnic cleansing would likely have occurred throughout the DLNR, you argued that this was disproved by the “counter-examples” of Kharkiv, etc. But those places didn’t revolt. Of course the Maidanists weren’t just going to start shelling Kharkiv out of the blue, without the slightest pretext.

    Also, I noted that Ukraine has rejected Russia’s proposal for UN peacekeepers on the line of contact, unless peacekeepers are also deployed on the completely peaceful DLNR/Russia border, which would prevent Russia from resupplying and reinforcing the rebels, and thereby enable Ukraine to invade the territory. You responded that to do so, the Ukrainian army would have to fight its way through the UN troops. But presumably the proposed peacekeeping force would only be large enough to act as an armed escort for OSCE inspectors, and deter the sort of sporadic low-level conflict we’re seeing now. Probably less than 10,000 troops, without heavy weapons. Not a force that would be more than a speed bump, if they were actually crazy enough to try to stop an all-out attack by the 100,000+ troops Kiev has deployed there.

    And you’re claimed that if Ukraine didn’t fight in Donbas, it would have been fighting in Kharkiv, etc. Why? At the time the “ATO” began, there was zero chance that the ragtag, hugely outnumbered and outgunned separatist army was going to drive to Dnipropetrovsk, Kharkiv, or anywhere beyond the territory they already controlled. Ukraine could have opted to take a defensive posture, similar to the one that exists along the line of contact now, and it’s military casualties would have been far lower.

    As for your main argument, that Ukraine is better off without the “diseased” Donbas, because now it is more free to re-orient itself toward the West, that would be true if a Western orientation were actually in Ukraine’s economic interest. But it’s not. EU membership isn’t happening. As long as Ukraine remains estranged from Russia, it will continue to stagnate, with GDP growth rates no better than Russia’s, despite having only 20% of Russia’s per capita GDP (down from 50% in 1991- Ukrainians should have listened to G.H.W Bush when he warned them against “suicidal nationalism”).

    Read More
    • Replies: @AP

    Responding to to my statement that had the separatists been defeated, ethnic cleansing would likely have occurred throughout the DLNR, you argued that this was disproved by the “counter-examples” of Kharkiv, etc. But those places didn’t revolt.
     
    But if ethnic cleansing of Russians was the goal, revolt would be irrelevant.

    Moreover, there are about 800,000 - 1 million displaced refugees from Donbas within Kiev-controlled Ukraine. That's not what ethnic cleansing looks like - but, do you mean that those from DNR/LNR territory were ethnically cleansed by the pro-Russians?

    Also, I noted that Ukraine has rejected Russia’s proposal for UN peacekeepers on the line of contact, unless peacekeepers are also deployed on the completely peaceful DLNR/Russia border, which would prevent Russia from resupplying and reinforcing the rebels, and thereby enable Ukraine to invade the territory. You responded that to do so, the Ukrainian army would have to fight its way through the UN troops. But presumably the proposed peacekeeping force would only be large enough to act as an armed escort for OSCE inspectors, and deter the sort of sporadic low-level conflict we’re seeing now. Probably less than 10,000 troops, without heavy weapons. Not a force that would be more than a speed bump,
     
    Correct. I didn't say the Ukrainian military couldn't fight its way through lightly armed UN peacekeeping forces. I said it would be very odd for Ukraine to want to have the forces there, if it was planning to invade Donbas through them. Unless you think Ukraine's goal is to become an international pariah?

    Similarly, if Ukraine were planning to assault and ethnically Donbas, why would it want UN peacekeepers on the Ukrainian/Russian borders, to witness and document the humanitarian catastrophe as 100,000s stream into Russia?

    The logical and simplest explanation for Ukraine is that it wants UN peacekeepers at borders in order to:

    1. Make the front stable and violence-free.
    2. Prevent the DNR/LNR republics from having the ability to present future problems/eliminate offensive capability.

    And you’re claimed that if Ukraine didn’t fight in Donbas, it would have been fighting in Kharkiv, etc. Why? At the time the “ATO” began, there was zero chance that the ragtag, hugely outnumbered and outgunned separatist army was going to drive to Dnipropetrovsk, Kharkiv, or anywhere beyond the territory they already controlled.
     
    The Ukrainian forces themselves were unorganized and ragtag then.

    Around that time some Russian tourist plants a Russian flag above Kharkiv's government buildings, the Donbas rebels were making claims about liberating all of "Novorossiya" and indeed there was much gloating on the Russian side about eventually taking all of "Blue Ukraine." Such ideas were common among Russian nationalists. Realistic or not, they were commonly held among Ukrainians too, often in border regions such as Dnipropetrovsk - if we don't fight them there, they'll come here.

    And - you honestly believe that if there was no fight for Donbas, pro-Russians wouldn't move further, as far as they could go before meeting resistance? That beggars belief. The pro-Russians would go as far as they could before they met armed resistance. So better that they met it in Donbas itself rather than in Kharkiv or Dnipro, damaging those regions.

    As for your main argument, that Ukraine is better off without the “diseased” Donbas, because now it is more free to re-orient itself toward the West, that would be true if a Western orientation were actually in Ukraine’s economic interest.
     
    1. Economics isn't everything. Otherwise, the people of Kalinigrad, Karelia, and Sakhalin should have tried to join Germany, Finland, and Japan, respectively.

    2. Ukraine was somewhat in Russia's orbit since independence (at least, it didn't fully pursue Westward integration). During this time it went from 50% of Russia's GDP to 20%. Ukraine's problem wasn't suicidal nationalism but a Soviet kleptocratic class that remained in control and that Russia has been very happy to work with; this wouldn't have changed with further Russian integration.
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  205. AP says:
    @Jon0815
    A few points in response to your now vanished reply to my now vanished post:

    Responding to to my statement that had the separatists been defeated, ethnic cleansing would likely have occurred throughout the DLNR, you argued that this was disproved by the "counter-examples" of Kharkiv, etc. But those places didn't revolt. Of course the Maidanists weren't just going to start shelling Kharkiv out of the blue, without the slightest pretext.

    Also, I noted that Ukraine has rejected Russia's proposal for UN peacekeepers on the line of contact, unless peacekeepers are also deployed on the completely peaceful DLNR/Russia border, which would prevent Russia from resupplying and reinforcing the rebels, and thereby enable Ukraine to invade the territory. You responded that to do so, the Ukrainian army would have to fight its way through the UN troops. But presumably the proposed peacekeeping force would only be large enough to act as an armed escort for OSCE inspectors, and deter the sort of sporadic low-level conflict we're seeing now. Probably less than 10,000 troops, without heavy weapons. Not a force that would be more than a speed bump, if they were actually crazy enough to try to stop an all-out attack by the 100,000+ troops Kiev has deployed there.

    And you're claimed that if Ukraine didn’t fight in Donbas, it would have been fighting in Kharkiv, etc. Why? At the time the "ATO" began, there was zero chance that the ragtag, hugely outnumbered and outgunned separatist army was going to drive to Dnipropetrovsk, Kharkiv, or anywhere beyond the territory they already controlled. Ukraine could have opted to take a defensive posture, similar to the one that exists along the line of contact now, and it's military casualties would have been far lower.

    As for your main argument, that Ukraine is better off without the "diseased" Donbas, because now it is more free to re-orient itself toward the West, that would be true if a Western orientation were actually in Ukraine's economic interest. But it's not. EU membership isn't happening. As long as Ukraine remains estranged from Russia, it will continue to stagnate, with GDP growth rates no better than Russia's, despite having only 20% of Russia's per capita GDP (down from 50% in 1991- Ukrainians should have listened to G.H.W Bush when he warned them against "suicidal nationalism").

    Responding to to my statement that had the separatists been defeated, ethnic cleansing would likely have occurred throughout the DLNR, you argued that this was disproved by the “counter-examples” of Kharkiv, etc. But those places didn’t revolt.

    But if ethnic cleansing of Russians was the goal, revolt would be irrelevant.

    Moreover, there are about 800,000 – 1 million displaced refugees from Donbas within Kiev-controlled Ukraine. That’s not what ethnic cleansing looks like – but, do you mean that those from DNR/LNR territory were ethnically cleansed by the pro-Russians?

    Also, I noted that Ukraine has rejected Russia’s proposal for UN peacekeepers on the line of contact, unless peacekeepers are also deployed on the completely peaceful DLNR/Russia border, which would prevent Russia from resupplying and reinforcing the rebels, and thereby enable Ukraine to invade the territory. You responded that to do so, the Ukrainian army would have to fight its way through the UN troops. But presumably the proposed peacekeeping force would only be large enough to act as an armed escort for OSCE inspectors, and deter the sort of sporadic low-level conflict we’re seeing now. Probably less than 10,000 troops, without heavy weapons. Not a force that would be more than a speed bump,

    Correct. I didn’t say the Ukrainian military couldn’t fight its way through lightly armed UN peacekeeping forces. I said it would be very odd for Ukraine to want to have the forces there, if it was planning to invade Donbas through them. Unless you think Ukraine’s goal is to become an international pariah?

    Similarly, if Ukraine were planning to assault and ethnically Donbas, why would it want UN peacekeepers on the Ukrainian/Russian borders, to witness and document the humanitarian catastrophe as 100,000s stream into Russia?

    The logical and simplest explanation for Ukraine is that it wants UN peacekeepers at borders in order to:

    1. Make the front stable and violence-free.
    2. Prevent the DNR/LNR republics from having the ability to present future problems/eliminate offensive capability.

    And you’re claimed that if Ukraine didn’t fight in Donbas, it would have been fighting in Kharkiv, etc. Why? At the time the “ATO” began, there was zero chance that the ragtag, hugely outnumbered and outgunned separatist army was going to drive to Dnipropetrovsk, Kharkiv, or anywhere beyond the territory they already controlled.

    The Ukrainian forces themselves were unorganized and ragtag then.

    Around that time some Russian tourist plants a Russian flag above Kharkiv’s government buildings, the Donbas rebels were making claims about liberating all of “Novorossiya” and indeed there was much gloating on the Russian side about eventually taking all of “Blue Ukraine.” Such ideas were common among Russian nationalists. Realistic or not, they were commonly held among Ukrainians too, often in border regions such as Dnipropetrovsk – if we don’t fight them there, they’ll come here.

    And – you honestly believe that if there was no fight for Donbas, pro-Russians wouldn’t move further, as far as they could go before meeting resistance? That beggars belief. The pro-Russians would go as far as they could before they met armed resistance. So better that they met it in Donbas itself rather than in Kharkiv or Dnipro, damaging those regions.

    As for your main argument, that Ukraine is better off without the “diseased” Donbas, because now it is more free to re-orient itself toward the West, that would be true if a Western orientation were actually in Ukraine’s economic interest.

    1. Economics isn’t everything. Otherwise, the people of Kalinigrad, Karelia, and Sakhalin should have tried to join Germany, Finland, and Japan, respectively.

    2. Ukraine was somewhat in Russia’s orbit since independence (at least, it didn’t fully pursue Westward integration). During this time it went from 50% of Russia’s GDP to 20%. Ukraine’s problem wasn’t suicidal nationalism but a Soviet kleptocratic class that remained in control and that Russia has been very happy to work with; this wouldn’t have changed with further Russian integration.

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    • Replies: @Jon0815

    But if ethnic cleansing of Russians was the goal, revolt would be irrelevant.
     

    I don't think there was a master plan to ethnically cleanse all ethnic Russians from Ukraine. But the cover of a military campaign presented an opportunity.

    The ethnic cleansing throughout the former Yugoslavia wouldn't have happened either, without the revolts against the central government.


    Moreover, there are about 800,000 – 1 million displaced refugees from Donbas within Kiev-controlled Ukraine. That’s not what ethnic cleansing looks like – but, do you mean that those from DNR/LNR territory were ethnically cleansed by the pro-Russians?
     
    Kiev-controlled Donbas (and Kiev-controlled Ukraine generally) is less ethnically Russian today than it was in 2014, no?

    Correct. I didn’t say the Ukrainian military couldn’t fight its way through lightly armed UN peacekeeping forces.
     
    It's very unlikely Ukraine would need to fight its way through the peacekeepers. They would just get out of the way.

    I said it would be very odd for Ukraine to want to have the forces there, if it was planning to invade Donbas through them. Unless you think Ukraine’s goal is to become an international pariah?
     
    Ukraine would blame the separatists for starting it somehow, possibly staging some sort of false flag provocation. And it would probably succeed, at least among Western media and politicians. As long as Ukraine is on the side of the globalist establishment, and against Russia, there is very little it can't get away with. It's still conventional wisdom among Western elites that the 2008 Russia-Georgia war was an act of Russian aggression, even though the facts are clear that Georgia started it.

    The logical and simplest explanation for Ukraine is that it wants UN peacekeepers at borders in order to:

    1. Make the front stable and violence-free.
    2. Prevent the DNR/LNR republics from having the ability to present future problems/eliminate offensive capability.
     

    If Ukraine wanted a violence free-front, it could comply with the Minsk agreements, or simply agree to UN peacekeepers at the front, without insisting on the poison pill of peacekeepers on the Russian border too. They know Russia can't agree to that, because it would give Ukraine the military capability to overrun the DLNR, and it's foolish to assume a capability won't be used.

    As I said before, the Maidanists need a continued low-level conflict with "the Russian aggressor" to distract from and provide an excuse for their economic failure.


    The Ukrainian forces themselves were unorganized and ragtag then.
     
    Compared to the rebels, they were the Wehrmacht. They weren't building an army completely from scratch in a matter of weeks. And even if they had been as disorganized and untrained as the rebels, which was not the case, they still had far more men and tanks, not to mention complete air superiority.

    Around that time some Russian tourist plants a Russian flag above Kharkiv’s government buildings, the Donbas rebels were making claims about liberating all of “Novorossiya” and indeed there was much gloating on the Russian side about eventually taking all of “Blue Ukraine.” Such ideas were common among Russian nationalists. Realistic or not, they were commonly held among Ukrainians too, often in border regions such as Dnipropetrovsk – if we don’t fight them there, they’ll come here.
     
    But my point is those ideas weren't at all realistic, despite the rebels' bluster. So if it were true that the reason for the "ATO" was to prevent further rebel expansion, that was a mistake. But that wasn't the reason. Kiev knew it had massive military superiority, and expected to defeat the rebels in days.

    And – you honestly believe that if there was no fight for Donbas, pro-Russians wouldn’t move further, as far as they could go before meeting resistance? That beggars belief. The pro-Russians would go as far as they could before they met armed resistance. So better that they met it in Donbas itself rather than in Kharkiv or Dnipro, damaging those regions.
     
    They didn't have the manpower to go further. When the "ATO" began, the rebels only numbered something like 10,000-15,000, while Ukrainian forces numbered over 100,000. The rebels were already spread quite thin, spreading themselves out even more would have made it even more difficult to defend against the Ukrainian army offensive which they knew was coming.

    If the ATO hadn't happened, then it is possible that at some later point, after they had built up their strength, the rebels would have launched an offensive to take more territory. But they would have needed Russia's backing for that, which they probably wouldn't have gotten. Putin's support for the DLNR has consistently been just the bare minimum necessary to prevent them from being defeated.


    Economics isn’t everything. Otherwise, the people of Kalinigrad, Karelia, and Sakhalin should have tried to join Germany, Finland, and Japan, respectively.
     
    But most Ukrainians who supported the Maidan did so primarily for economic reasons: They believed that a Western orientation (including the false promise of EU membership) was the route to Western levels of prosperity.

    Ukraine’s problem wasn’t suicidal nationalism but a Soviet kleptocratic class that remained in control and that Russia has been very happy to work with; this wouldn’t have changed with further Russian integration.
     
    The same kleptocratic class was in charge before 1991, and Ukraine wasn't falling behind Russia then.

    If Ukraine had remained a single economy with Russia since 1991, then there would have been a natural tendency for PCGDP levels to equalize, which would to some degree counteracted whatever forces caused them to diverge in reality. At the very least, Ukraine couldn't possibly have done worse.

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  206. Jon0815 says:
    @AP

    Responding to to my statement that had the separatists been defeated, ethnic cleansing would likely have occurred throughout the DLNR, you argued that this was disproved by the “counter-examples” of Kharkiv, etc. But those places didn’t revolt.
     
    But if ethnic cleansing of Russians was the goal, revolt would be irrelevant.

    Moreover, there are about 800,000 - 1 million displaced refugees from Donbas within Kiev-controlled Ukraine. That's not what ethnic cleansing looks like - but, do you mean that those from DNR/LNR territory were ethnically cleansed by the pro-Russians?

    Also, I noted that Ukraine has rejected Russia’s proposal for UN peacekeepers on the line of contact, unless peacekeepers are also deployed on the completely peaceful DLNR/Russia border, which would prevent Russia from resupplying and reinforcing the rebels, and thereby enable Ukraine to invade the territory. You responded that to do so, the Ukrainian army would have to fight its way through the UN troops. But presumably the proposed peacekeeping force would only be large enough to act as an armed escort for OSCE inspectors, and deter the sort of sporadic low-level conflict we’re seeing now. Probably less than 10,000 troops, without heavy weapons. Not a force that would be more than a speed bump,
     
    Correct. I didn't say the Ukrainian military couldn't fight its way through lightly armed UN peacekeeping forces. I said it would be very odd for Ukraine to want to have the forces there, if it was planning to invade Donbas through them. Unless you think Ukraine's goal is to become an international pariah?

    Similarly, if Ukraine were planning to assault and ethnically Donbas, why would it want UN peacekeepers on the Ukrainian/Russian borders, to witness and document the humanitarian catastrophe as 100,000s stream into Russia?

    The logical and simplest explanation for Ukraine is that it wants UN peacekeepers at borders in order to:

    1. Make the front stable and violence-free.
    2. Prevent the DNR/LNR republics from having the ability to present future problems/eliminate offensive capability.

    And you’re claimed that if Ukraine didn’t fight in Donbas, it would have been fighting in Kharkiv, etc. Why? At the time the “ATO” began, there was zero chance that the ragtag, hugely outnumbered and outgunned separatist army was going to drive to Dnipropetrovsk, Kharkiv, or anywhere beyond the territory they already controlled.
     
    The Ukrainian forces themselves were unorganized and ragtag then.

    Around that time some Russian tourist plants a Russian flag above Kharkiv's government buildings, the Donbas rebels were making claims about liberating all of "Novorossiya" and indeed there was much gloating on the Russian side about eventually taking all of "Blue Ukraine." Such ideas were common among Russian nationalists. Realistic or not, they were commonly held among Ukrainians too, often in border regions such as Dnipropetrovsk - if we don't fight them there, they'll come here.

    And - you honestly believe that if there was no fight for Donbas, pro-Russians wouldn't move further, as far as they could go before meeting resistance? That beggars belief. The pro-Russians would go as far as they could before they met armed resistance. So better that they met it in Donbas itself rather than in Kharkiv or Dnipro, damaging those regions.

    As for your main argument, that Ukraine is better off without the “diseased” Donbas, because now it is more free to re-orient itself toward the West, that would be true if a Western orientation were actually in Ukraine’s economic interest.
     
    1. Economics isn't everything. Otherwise, the people of Kalinigrad, Karelia, and Sakhalin should have tried to join Germany, Finland, and Japan, respectively.

    2. Ukraine was somewhat in Russia's orbit since independence (at least, it didn't fully pursue Westward integration). During this time it went from 50% of Russia's GDP to 20%. Ukraine's problem wasn't suicidal nationalism but a Soviet kleptocratic class that remained in control and that Russia has been very happy to work with; this wouldn't have changed with further Russian integration.

    But if ethnic cleansing of Russians was the goal, revolt would be irrelevant.

    I don’t think there was a master plan to ethnically cleanse all ethnic Russians from Ukraine. But the cover of a military campaign presented an opportunity.

    The ethnic cleansing throughout the former Yugoslavia wouldn’t have happened either, without the revolts against the central government.

    Moreover, there are about 800,000 – 1 million displaced refugees from Donbas within Kiev-controlled Ukraine. That’s not what ethnic cleansing looks like – but, do you mean that those from DNR/LNR territory were ethnically cleansed by the pro-Russians?

    Kiev-controlled Donbas (and Kiev-controlled Ukraine generally) is less ethnically Russian today than it was in 2014, no?

    Correct. I didn’t say the Ukrainian military couldn’t fight its way through lightly armed UN peacekeeping forces.

    It’s very unlikely Ukraine would need to fight its way through the peacekeepers. They would just get out of the way.

    I said it would be very odd for Ukraine to want to have the forces there, if it was planning to invade Donbas through them. Unless you think Ukraine’s goal is to become an international pariah?

    Ukraine would blame the separatists for starting it somehow, possibly staging some sort of false flag provocation. And it would probably succeed, at least among Western media and politicians. As long as Ukraine is on the side of the globalist establishment, and against Russia, there is very little it can’t get away with. It’s still conventional wisdom among Western elites that the 2008 Russia-Georgia war was an act of Russian aggression, even though the facts are clear that Georgia started it.

    The logical and simplest explanation for Ukraine is that it wants UN peacekeepers at borders in order to:

    1. Make the front stable and violence-free.
    2. Prevent the DNR/LNR republics from having the ability to present future problems/eliminate offensive capability.

    If Ukraine wanted a violence free-front, it could comply with the Minsk agreements, or simply agree to UN peacekeepers at the front, without insisting on the poison pill of peacekeepers on the Russian border too. They know Russia can’t agree to that, because it would give Ukraine the military capability to overrun the DLNR, and it’s foolish to assume a capability won’t be used.

    As I said before, the Maidanists need a continued low-level conflict with “the Russian aggressor” to distract from and provide an excuse for their economic failure.

    The Ukrainian forces themselves were unorganized and ragtag then.

    Compared to the rebels, they were the Wehrmacht. They weren’t building an army completely from scratch in a matter of weeks. And even if they had been as disorganized and untrained as the rebels, which was not the case, they still had far more men and tanks, not to mention complete air superiority.

    Around that time some Russian tourist plants a Russian flag above Kharkiv’s government buildings, the Donbas rebels were making claims about liberating all of “Novorossiya” and indeed there was much gloating on the Russian side about eventually taking all of “Blue Ukraine.” Such ideas were common among Russian nationalists. Realistic or not, they were commonly held among Ukrainians too, often in border regions such as Dnipropetrovsk – if we don’t fight them there, they’ll come here.

    But my point is those ideas weren’t at all realistic, despite the rebels’ bluster. So if it were true that the reason for the “ATO” was to prevent further rebel expansion, that was a mistake. But that wasn’t the reason. Kiev knew it had massive military superiority, and expected to defeat the rebels in days.

    And – you honestly believe that if there was no fight for Donbas, pro-Russians wouldn’t move further, as far as they could go before meeting resistance? That beggars belief. The pro-Russians would go as far as they could before they met armed resistance. So better that they met it in Donbas itself rather than in Kharkiv or Dnipro, damaging those regions.

    They didn’t have the manpower to go further. When the “ATO” began, the rebels only numbered something like 10,000-15,000, while Ukrainian forces numbered over 100,000. The rebels were already spread quite thin, spreading themselves out even more would have made it even more difficult to defend against the Ukrainian army offensive which they knew was coming.

    If the ATO hadn’t happened, then it is possible that at some later point, after they had built up their strength, the rebels would have launched an offensive to take more territory. But they would have needed Russia’s backing for that, which they probably wouldn’t have gotten. Putin’s support for the DLNR has consistently been just the bare minimum necessary to prevent them from being defeated.

    Economics isn’t everything. Otherwise, the people of Kalinigrad, Karelia, and Sakhalin should have tried to join Germany, Finland, and Japan, respectively.

    But most Ukrainians who supported the Maidan did so primarily for economic reasons: They believed that a Western orientation (including the false promise of EU membership) was the route to Western levels of prosperity.

    Ukraine’s problem wasn’t suicidal nationalism but a Soviet kleptocratic class that remained in control and that Russia has been very happy to work with; this wouldn’t have changed with further Russian integration.

    The same kleptocratic class was in charge before 1991, and Ukraine wasn’t falling behind Russia then.

    If Ukraine had remained a single economy with Russia since 1991, then there would have been a natural tendency for PCGDP levels to equalize, which would to some degree counteracted whatever forces caused them to diverge in reality. At the very least, Ukraine couldn’t possibly have done worse.

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  207. Corvinus says:
    @RadicalCenter
    http://www.newsweek.com/nolan-peterson-why-ukraine-population-shrinking-559697

    “Not resilient enough to have children and actually perpetuate their own families and nation. Kind of an important defect, no?”

    Assuming that Ukrainians as a whole who make this decision are not resilient and are defected as a result.

    “It’s not just emigration, it’s that on a widespread basis, Ukrainians, like other demoralized and confused white peoples, simply fail to have children.”

    Maybe Ukrainians are not demoralized or confused, but are content and clear headed.

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