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Putin Raised the Retirement Age, and That's A Good Thing
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Under the measures announced on June 15, in the immediate glowing wake of Russia’s 5:0 football victory over Saudi Arabia, the pensions age is to rise from 60 for men/55 for women to 65 for men/63 for women.

It will be a gradual increase, with the full increase for men only being attained in 2028, and for women in 2034.

The reason why Russia needs to raise its retirement age probably has very little to do with “liberal fifth columnists” and quite a lot more to do with this:

russia-life-expectancy-1959-2017

Here’s another good reason: Russian life expectancy has been tracking the High/Optimistic scenario from my demographic model from 2008, and there’s no reason it won’t continue to do so as the Soviet legacy of alcoholization retreats and medical care continues getting better.

russia-life-expectancy-high-scenario

Russian life expectancy was 73 years in 2017, exactly matching my optimistic scenario (and I myself was more far more optimistic than the average demographer). Projecting forwards, Russian life expectancy will increase to 75 years by 2020, and 78 years by 2030 (incidentally, the targets Putin set on his inauguration, raising life expectancy to 78 years by 2024, are even more ambitious, if highly unlikely).

Finally, Russia already has the lowest retirement age of any OECD or post-Soviet country (sorry/not sorry to disappoint fans of the [massively Russian subsidized] Belorussian model, but they too are increasing their retirement age).

When Russia’s life expectancy was also a downwards outlier, this was sustainable, but now that it is rapidly going up and converging with the developed world – which, I assume, everyone agrees is a good thing – that is no longer the case.

Here’s another relevant graph (via Felix Keverich):

russia-entitlements-spending

With pensions spending approaching 9% of GDP, this makes Russian pensions – as a share of GDP – already more generous than those of the OECD average of 8%, and this burden will only increase as life expectancy continues going up. The government plans to increase spending on health (necessary) and education (much more skeptical) to move them closer in line with the OECD average, and the money for that will have to come from somewhere.

Despite this being a plainly necessary policy, no good deed goes unpunished.

Putin has come under attack from an unholy alliance of cynical neoliberal Russophobes, Far Left “Russophiles”, and all manner of populists, demotists, and sovoks.

I mean, I can hardly be called a fan of Putin. But out of all the reasons to attack him these people OF COURSE pick the most idiotic, baseless, and retrograde one.

On the other hand, when you are attacked like this from all sides, it means that you must be doing something right.

Western headlines have hewed to a narrative in which Russia is proposing to raise the retirement age above the life expectancy. Which is both flat out false (Russian life expectancy is 73 years, with men living to 68 – well above their retirement age, even today) and, moreover, irrelevant (what matters is the life expectancy on reaching the retirement age, which was 13 years for men in 2014).

Commenter reiner Tor furthermore makes the point that these journalists tend to support the same policies in their own countries while cynically condemning Russia for doing the same thing:

Anyway, it’s interesting that the Hungarian reform was praised by the same people who are now condemning the Russian one. Similarly, I bet you these very same people would love to cut social security spending in the US or raising the retirement age in any western country. Like they were praising Macron.

There is of course no shortage of people in Russia itself rushing to make hay of the situation, including the cynical hypocrite neoliberal Navalny and the Communist Party, that great champion of the working class (note that the USSR only introduced pensions for collective farm workers in 1965).

Despite Putin’s attempt to shield himself from the pensions reform by portraying it as an initiative of the much less popular Medvedev Cabinet, the first opinion polls coming in show that his approval rating has plummeted by at least 10% points.

Levada: Putin approval rating fell from 79% in May, having held steady at around 80% ever since Crimea, to 65% in June. Although overall figures are still very high, this is a sudden and unprecedented collapse; his all time lowest rating after becoming President in 2000 was 61% in November 2011, which coincided with the large-scale protests in Moscow.

VCIOM: Putin approval rating fell from 77% in June 10, to 72% by June 17, and 63% by June 24 [1, 2].

FOM: Putin job approval fell from 75% on June 10, to 69% on June 17; percentage of Russians willing to vote for him fell from 62% on June 10, to 54% on June 17.

Alexander Kireev notes that the collapse in Putin approval ratings was concentrated amongst the middle-aged, with the declines amongst the young (for whom retirement is a long ways off) and the elderly (who are already retired anyway) being much more modest.

Although I am not much in the habit of making moral judgments, I will make an exception here. I really do think this confirms once again the superiority of the young Russian generations over their sovok parents. The latter are materialists to the core, protesting over exclusively materialist things: Monetization of benefits in 2005, now the pensions reform. Perhaps their one saving grace is that their moral weakness, personal cowardice, and apatride attitudes also means they’re only going to whine quietly and not go out to do battle with the police on the streets and march for color revolution. The youth march for things such as free and fair elections, against Internet censorship, against massive corruption in the Kremlin, for the Donbass and Novorossiya, for LGBT rights. While I certainly consider some of these causes to be better and more desirable than others, all of them without exception are infinitely more admirable than this whining about getting their gibsmedats slightly delayed (no matter that they would still have one of the lowest retirement ages in the civilized world).

But perhaps I’m being too harsh. After all, it’s not like raising the retirement age is popular in any country.

Thankfully, many countries – including Russia itself – has safeguards against such demotic idiocy. This is a good thing.

 
• Category: Economics • Tags: Politics, Russia 
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  1. Is this really used that much for anti-Russian propaganda in Western media? Seems unlikely to me given the realities in the west (in Germany there’s already talk about raising the retirement age to at least 69, and when people of my age will be old the entire system will have collapsed anyway).

    Read More
    • Replies: @Greasy William

    ...and when people of my age will be old the entire system will have collapsed anyway
     
    the new immigrants will ensure that the German pension system stays strong in perpetuity
    , @AnonFromTN
    Welcome to the club! By the time I retire the US Social Security system will be broke, primarily because the US government will never repay what it “borrowed” from it, as this government is already 21 trillion in the hole and keeps digging. Another alternative is no better: to repay its debt the US government will have to devalue the US $ about to about 10% of its current purchasing power. Then the Social Security payments would be what they promise numerically, but that would be enough to buy a few burgers. Brave new world!
    , @reiner Tor
    Well, I saw it in Hungary. Also in some English language sources, things like “40% of men won’t live long enough to enjoy it” or something similar.
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  2. One little problem: about 90% of Russian population is against it. Another little problem: life expectancy is Russia now is at all-time high, but that’s only just shy of 71 years (in 2015)(for comparison, in the US it is just shy of 79 years). So, their retirement age of 65 years is equivalent to 73 years in the US, which even the greediest corporations aren’t proposing.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
    1. Good thing that the Russian government ignores demotist caprices.

    2. It is 73 years in 2017 (more relevant) and will be in the mid-to-high 70s - the government is aiming for 80 years by 2030 - when the changes filter through (even more relevant).
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  3. @German_reader
    Is this really used that much for anti-Russian propaganda in Western media? Seems unlikely to me given the realities in the west (in Germany there's already talk about raising the retirement age to at least 69, and when people of my age will be old the entire system will have collapsed anyway).

    …and when people of my age will be old the entire system will have collapsed anyway

    the new immigrants will ensure that the German pension system stays strong in perpetuity

    Read More
    • LOL: reiner Tor, iffen
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  4. @AnonFromTN
    One little problem: about 90% of Russian population is against it. Another little problem: life expectancy is Russia now is at all-time high, but that’s only just shy of 71 years (in 2015)(for comparison, in the US it is just shy of 79 years). So, their retirement age of 65 years is equivalent to 73 years in the US, which even the greediest corporations aren’t proposing.

    1. Good thing that the Russian government ignores demotist caprices.

    2. It is 73 years in 2017 (more relevant) and will be in the mid-to-high 70s – the government is aiming for 80 years by 2030 – when the changes filter through (even more relevant).

    Read More
    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    Sounds familiar. “We will do what’s best for you, whether you like it or not”. That’s Bolshevik policy. We know full well where this lead the country.
    What the government is aiming at is totally irrelevant. Previous one was ostensibly aiming for full communism (everybody gets everything according to his/her needs), and where is it? Pipe dreams do not justify real policies.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  5. People are paying mandatory pension tax for decades, it’s disgusting to call the smaller amount they may or may not get back in the end “gibsmedats” and to call fighting for “LGBT rights” ” infinitely more admirable”, even if everything else you said is correct.

    Read More
    • Agree: dfordoom
    • Replies: @iffen
    Agree!
    , @reiner Tor
    The pension tax was very low and was used to pay pensions for the very low number of pensioners. Moreover, the pensions themselves were much lower than they are now, when the smaller currently working population pays for the much larger currently pensioner cohorts.

    So it’s basically gibsmedat, whether you like it or not.
    , @Thorfinnsson
    The solution to this is to turn pensions into defined-contribution accounts which are the private property of the contributor. Obviously this was not feasible when pensions were first introduced, but with today's financial markets there is no reason not to do so.

    Though I suppose financial markets in Russia are not yet sufficiently mature to entrust people's retirement savings to the market.

    In Western countries this is however a no-brainer.

    Another nice benefit of defined-contribution accounts is that when the pensioner dies, someone gets to inherit the money.
    , @gate666
    why does altright hates gays.
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  6. @German_reader
    Is this really used that much for anti-Russian propaganda in Western media? Seems unlikely to me given the realities in the west (in Germany there's already talk about raising the retirement age to at least 69, and when people of my age will be old the entire system will have collapsed anyway).

    Welcome to the club! By the time I retire the US Social Security system will be broke, primarily because the US government will never repay what it “borrowed” from it, as this government is already 21 trillion in the hole and keeps digging. Another alternative is no better: to repay its debt the US government will have to devalue the US $ about to about 10% of its current purchasing power. Then the Social Security payments would be what they promise numerically, but that would be enough to buy a few burgers. Brave new world!

    Read More
    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    They'll raise the retirement age, raise the payroll tax, or cut benefits. Or some combination of all three. If Paul Craig Roberts is still alive when they do so we can expect a flood of outraged columns. :)

    And Social Security payments are indexed to inflation.

    $21 trillion sounds like a big scary number but is not really a big deal. Lots of ordinary workers take out home mortgages which exceed their income five times (or more) and don't run into trouble. And the US government owns assets worth $200 trillion or so.

    While running trillion Dollar deficits this late into an economic expansion is dubious, Scott Adams' Law of Slow Moving problems applies.

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  7. iffen says:

    A descendant and admirer of the aristocracy thinks peons need to work until they drop.

    Who could have predicted it?

    Read More
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  8. @German_reader
    Is this really used that much for anti-Russian propaganda in Western media? Seems unlikely to me given the realities in the west (in Germany there's already talk about raising the retirement age to at least 69, and when people of my age will be old the entire system will have collapsed anyway).

    Well, I saw it in Hungary. Also in some English language sources, things like “40% of men won’t live long enough to enjoy it” or something similar.

    Read More
    • Replies: @German_reader
    I googled it and didn't find much in German newspapers, it seems to be reported in a fairly neutral way. They make claims like "funds for kindergardens and schools are cut to help pay for the world cup", but the pensions issue apparently isn't seen as suitable for Russia-bashing.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  9. @Anatoly Karlin
    1. Good thing that the Russian government ignores demotist caprices.

    2. It is 73 years in 2017 (more relevant) and will be in the mid-to-high 70s - the government is aiming for 80 years by 2030 - when the changes filter through (even more relevant).

    Sounds familiar. “We will do what’s best for you, whether you like it or not”. That’s Bolshevik policy. We know full well where this lead the country.
    What the government is aiming at is totally irrelevant. Previous one was ostensibly aiming for full communism (everybody gets everything according to his/her needs), and where is it? Pipe dreams do not justify real policies.

    Read More
    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    An informational vignette. After the announcement of planned increase of the retirement age the approval of Medvedev plunged from 41% to 30%. Only 7% of respondents trust him, whereas 26% do not (in May the ratio was 12% vs 17%). Putin’s rating also went down, but not as dramatically: from 77% to 63% approval, whereas 26% disapprove of him now. Of course, Western politicians can only dream of this approval vs disapproval ratio (I don’t think anyone ever had that), but it’s a signal.
    , @Felix Keverich
    Here is the crux of problem: Russian government doesn't have the money to pay pensions to everyone, who is currently eligible for them. Russian Pension fund is already running a huge deficit, up to 2% of GDP, which is projected to explode in the future, if there is no reform. This threatens stability of Russia's government finances.

    There are two ways the government can adress the situation: it can gradually devalue the size of the benefits, spreading them in a thin layer across a growing army of pensioners. Or it can raise the retirement age, thus reducing the number of people eligible for benefits.

    Most economists agree that raising retirement age is the more logical, humane way to adress the problem of pension system that is radiply running out of money.
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  10. iffen says:
    @Spisarevski
    People are paying mandatory pension tax for decades, it's disgusting to call the smaller amount they may or may not get back in the end "gibsmedats" and to call fighting for "LGBT rights" " infinitely more admirable", even if everything else you said is correct.

    Agree!

    Read More
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  11. @Spisarevski
    People are paying mandatory pension tax for decades, it's disgusting to call the smaller amount they may or may not get back in the end "gibsmedats" and to call fighting for "LGBT rights" " infinitely more admirable", even if everything else you said is correct.

    The pension tax was very low and was used to pay pensions for the very low number of pensioners. Moreover, the pensions themselves were much lower than they are now, when the smaller currently working population pays for the much larger currently pensioner cohorts.

    So it’s basically gibsmedat, whether you like it or not.

    Read More
    • Replies: @iffen
    Disagree!!
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  12. @reiner Tor
    Well, I saw it in Hungary. Also in some English language sources, things like “40% of men won’t live long enough to enjoy it” or something similar.

    I googled it and didn’t find much in German newspapers, it seems to be reported in a fairly neutral way. They make claims like “funds for kindergardens and schools are cut to help pay for the world cup”, but the pensions issue apparently isn’t seen as suitable for Russia-bashing.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  13. @AnonFromTN
    Sounds familiar. “We will do what’s best for you, whether you like it or not”. That’s Bolshevik policy. We know full well where this lead the country.
    What the government is aiming at is totally irrelevant. Previous one was ostensibly aiming for full communism (everybody gets everything according to his/her needs), and where is it? Pipe dreams do not justify real policies.

    An informational vignette. After the announcement of planned increase of the retirement age the approval of Medvedev plunged from 41% to 30%. Only 7% of respondents trust him, whereas 26% do not (in May the ratio was 12% vs 17%). Putin’s rating also went down, but not as dramatically: from 77% to 63% approval, whereas 26% disapprove of him now. Of course, Western politicians can only dream of this approval vs disapproval ratio (I don’t think anyone ever had that), but it’s a signal.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  14. @Spisarevski
    People are paying mandatory pension tax for decades, it's disgusting to call the smaller amount they may or may not get back in the end "gibsmedats" and to call fighting for "LGBT rights" " infinitely more admirable", even if everything else you said is correct.

    The solution to this is to turn pensions into defined-contribution accounts which are the private property of the contributor. Obviously this was not feasible when pensions were first introduced, but with today’s financial markets there is no reason not to do so.

    Though I suppose financial markets in Russia are not yet sufficiently mature to entrust people’s retirement savings to the market.

    In Western countries this is however a no-brainer.

    Another nice benefit of defined-contribution accounts is that when the pensioner dies, someone gets to inherit the money.

    Read More
    • Replies: @iffen
    but with today’s financial markets there is no reason not to do so.


    Many peons make stupid decisions, finanicial ones included.

    You know that, right?

    , @AnonFromTN
    There is a little snag in that: the “mature” US stock market is denominated in US $. If the US government ever decides to repay its debt, it would have to decrease the value of the $ (and all people’s savings) to maybe 10% of its current level. The Euro and Yen will plunge with the $, so “international” stocks won’t help, either. It’s a con job. If you believe in markets, you are either mad, or an economist.
    , @Thorfinnsson
    More on this:

    Shifting pensions from publicly-funded defined benefit to privately-financed defined contribution would make the retirement age nearly irrelevant for most workers.

    You could retire at any age provided you are limited to a maximum annual withdrawal which ensures that your capital will never be exhausted. Historically in America this is 4%, which is called the 4% rule. The inventor of the rule now suggests a 2.6% rule instead owing to expensive equities and bonds (as of last year--equities aren't expensive anymore). The government can play it safe and declare 2.5%.

    https://www.fool.com/retirement/2017/06/11/forget-the-4-retirement-rule-heres-a-smarter-way-t.aspx

    Amass $2,000,000 in the pension account by the time you're 40 and comfortable living off $50,000 per year? Go for it!

    Useful tool: https://firecalc.com/

    Higher withdrawal rates are permissible as the person nears death for obvious reasons.

    Minimum contribution levels would be set to ensure steady retirement income comparable to one's wages by the time one reaches 70½.

    The government could backstop the plan by guaranteeing a certain monthly benefit after the age of 70½ to ensure public trust. But it would likely never need to back that guarantee.

    Downsides to this plan:

    1 - Transition costs
    2 - SJWs will no doubt call for boycotts of certain stocks (though this could be an upside for value investors--think about it)
    3 - Vulnerable to special interest capture (e.g. high-fee "active managers" might get the right to invest on the public's behalf)
    4 - Plan will be difficult to implement owing to widespread public incompetence about financial markets and hysterical, irrational fear and loathing about THE BANKS, FIAT MONEY, and THE FEDERAL RESERVE
    , @reiner Tor
    That’s a fallacy.
    , @Medvedev

    In Western countries this is however a no-brainer.
     
    There is one huge problem with your thinking. Western model relies on a Ponzi scheme. That's why you have ever-increasing stocks, housing and land prices.
    , @Rattus Norwegius
    Great idea! This would also encourage more productive behaviour, and if a person is not able to reap the rewards, then the persons closest relatives can.
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  15. iffen says:
    @Thorfinnsson
    The solution to this is to turn pensions into defined-contribution accounts which are the private property of the contributor. Obviously this was not feasible when pensions were first introduced, but with today's financial markets there is no reason not to do so.

    Though I suppose financial markets in Russia are not yet sufficiently mature to entrust people's retirement savings to the market.

    In Western countries this is however a no-brainer.

    Another nice benefit of defined-contribution accounts is that when the pensioner dies, someone gets to inherit the money.

    but with today’s financial markets there is no reason not to do so.

    Many peons make stupid decisions, finanicial ones included.

    You know that, right?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    Indeed, which is why these decisions would not be undertaken by them.

    As an example I recently discovered that my secretary, who is 52, only has $10,000 in retirement assets. Her husband has none. With her current 401(k) contribution rate she'll only have $100,000 in retirement assets when she reaches 65. Her husband has no retirement assets and will soon be unable to work since he is a roofer and has a drinking problem. Thank God for Social Security and the fact they own their home outright. I foresee a reverse mortgage in their future.

    Needless to say when she comes back to work (plant is closed next week for the holiday) I will talk to her about this so she doesn't end up destitute in her old age.

    There would be a mandatory minimum contribution, a maximum withdrawal limit, and the plan would invest in a target date fund with a diversified portfolio of equities, bonds, REITs, and perhaps some international assets (hedge against currency risk).

    Needless to stay the target date fund would be strictly rules-based--absolutely no high-fee active managers of any kind.

    The sort of plan a single person could run with four hours a week of work: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-05-04/a-small-college-s-endowment-manager-beat-harvard-with-index-funds

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  16. iffen says:
    @reiner Tor
    The pension tax was very low and was used to pay pensions for the very low number of pensioners. Moreover, the pensions themselves were much lower than they are now, when the smaller currently working population pays for the much larger currently pensioner cohorts.

    So it’s basically gibsmedat, whether you like it or not.

    Disagree!!

    Read More
    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    I can give you the example of Hungary, with which I’m fairly familiar with. Pensioners’ number only reached 1 million in 1980. Around 2008 (when I was reading about it) it was well above 3 million. Meanwhile, the working age population went down. So there were roughly 5 million people supporting a few hundred thousands in the 1970s (reaching 1 million by the end of the decade), and maybe 4 million supporting over 3 million pensioners in the 2000s. Meanwhile, the average pension in the 1970s was roughly a third of the average salary, but it grew to almost 90% of the average salary by the mid-2000s. To top it off, the 4 million workers in the 2000s were promised that they’d get nearly nothing in exchange for that generous support of the older generations, because they changed the rules around 2007, that anyone retiring after that would receive much lower pensions. I know people who retired at that time, because if they waited a few more years (there were cases of people who could delay it), they’d have received much lower pensions. I’m sure the dynamics is similar, there’s one generation hugely benefiting and the ones before or after don’t.

    It’s a regular gibsmedat.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  17. @Thorfinnsson
    The solution to this is to turn pensions into defined-contribution accounts which are the private property of the contributor. Obviously this was not feasible when pensions were first introduced, but with today's financial markets there is no reason not to do so.

    Though I suppose financial markets in Russia are not yet sufficiently mature to entrust people's retirement savings to the market.

    In Western countries this is however a no-brainer.

    Another nice benefit of defined-contribution accounts is that when the pensioner dies, someone gets to inherit the money.

    There is a little snag in that: the “mature” US stock market is denominated in US $. If the US government ever decides to repay its debt, it would have to decrease the value of the $ (and all people’s savings) to maybe 10% of its current level. The Euro and Yen will plunge with the $, so “international” stocks won’t help, either. It’s a con job. If you believe in markets, you are either mad, or an economist.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    Real Soon Now

    See point #4 in this comment: http://www.unz.com/akarlin/putin-raised-the-retirement-age-and-thats-a-good-thing/#comment-2396413

    4 – Plan will be difficult to implement owing to widespread public incompetence about financial markets and hysterical, irrational fear and loathing about THE BANKS, FIAT MONEY, and THE FEDERAL RESERVE
     
    Paying down debt is deflationary and, all else equal, increases the value of the currency.
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  18. @Thorfinnsson
    The solution to this is to turn pensions into defined-contribution accounts which are the private property of the contributor. Obviously this was not feasible when pensions were first introduced, but with today's financial markets there is no reason not to do so.

    Though I suppose financial markets in Russia are not yet sufficiently mature to entrust people's retirement savings to the market.

    In Western countries this is however a no-brainer.

    Another nice benefit of defined-contribution accounts is that when the pensioner dies, someone gets to inherit the money.

    More on this:

    Shifting pensions from publicly-funded defined benefit to privately-financed defined contribution would make the retirement age nearly irrelevant for most workers.

    You could retire at any age provided you are limited to a maximum annual withdrawal which ensures that your capital will never be exhausted. Historically in America this is 4%, which is called the 4% rule. The inventor of the rule now suggests a 2.6% rule instead owing to expensive equities and bonds (as of last year–equities aren’t expensive anymore). The government can play it safe and declare 2.5%.

    https://www.fool.com/retirement/2017/06/11/forget-the-4-retirement-rule-heres-a-smarter-way-t.aspx

    Amass $2,000,000 in the pension account by the time you’re 40 and comfortable living off $50,000 per year? Go for it!

    Useful tool: https://firecalc.com/

    Higher withdrawal rates are permissible as the person nears death for obvious reasons.

    Minimum contribution levels would be set to ensure steady retirement income comparable to one’s wages by the time one reaches 70½.

    The government could backstop the plan by guaranteeing a certain monthly benefit after the age of 70½ to ensure public trust. But it would likely never need to back that guarantee.

    Downsides to this plan:

    1 – Transition costs
    2 – SJWs will no doubt call for boycotts of certain stocks (though this could be an upside for value investors–think about it)
    3 – Vulnerable to special interest capture (e.g. high-fee “active managers” might get the right to invest on the public’s behalf)
    4 – Plan will be difficult to implement owing to widespread public incompetence about financial markets and hysterical, irrational fear and loathing about THE BANKS, FIAT MONEY, and THE FEDERAL RESERVE

    Read More
    • Replies: @AnonFromTN

    Amass $2,000,000 in the pension account by the time you’re 40
     
    Did they ever teach you the times table or simple math? To do what you propose you have to save ~$100,000 a year between 25 and 40 years of age and invest the money with a decent rate of return. What fraction of the US population, where current median household (not personal!) income is ~$56,000, can afford to salt away ~$100,000 a year?
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  19. @AnonFromTN
    There is a little snag in that: the “mature” US stock market is denominated in US $. If the US government ever decides to repay its debt, it would have to decrease the value of the $ (and all people’s savings) to maybe 10% of its current level. The Euro and Yen will plunge with the $, so “international” stocks won’t help, either. It’s a con job. If you believe in markets, you are either mad, or an economist.

    Real Soon Now

    See point #4 in this comment: http://www.unz.com/akarlin/putin-raised-the-retirement-age-and-thats-a-good-thing/#comment-2396413

    4 – Plan will be difficult to implement owing to widespread public incompetence about financial markets and hysterical, irrational fear and loathing about THE BANKS, FIAT MONEY, and THE FEDERAL RESERVE

    Paying down debt is deflationary and, all else equal, increases the value of the currency.

    Read More
    • Replies: @AnonFromTN

    Paying down debt is deflationary and, all else equal, increases the value of the currency
     
    That’s true of the debt you can afford to repay. The US government cannot afford to repay its debt without plunging the value of the US $. What’s more, it keeps borrowing like there is no tomorrow. Every US citizen now owes more than $63,000, and most of them never had that much money in their lives.
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  20. @iffen
    but with today’s financial markets there is no reason not to do so.


    Many peons make stupid decisions, finanicial ones included.

    You know that, right?

    Indeed, which is why these decisions would not be undertaken by them.

    As an example I recently discovered that my secretary, who is 52, only has $10,000 in retirement assets. Her husband has none. With her current 401(k) contribution rate she’ll only have $100,000 in retirement assets when she reaches 65. Her husband has no retirement assets and will soon be unable to work since he is a roofer and has a drinking problem. Thank God for Social Security and the fact they own their home outright. I foresee a reverse mortgage in their future.

    Needless to say when she comes back to work (plant is closed next week for the holiday) I will talk to her about this so she doesn’t end up destitute in her old age.

    There would be a mandatory minimum contribution, a maximum withdrawal limit, and the plan would invest in a target date fund with a diversified portfolio of equities, bonds, REITs, and perhaps some international assets (hedge against currency risk).

    Needless to stay the target date fund would be strictly rules-based–absolutely no high-fee active managers of any kind.

    The sort of plan a single person could run with four hours a week of work: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-05-04/a-small-college-s-endowment-manager-beat-harvard-with-index-funds

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    Do they have kids - aka the old-school retirement plan?

    Peace.
    , @iffen
    Thor, you are dear to my heart. Build me a company town with a good c0mmissary.
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  21. g2k says:

    Not really as any future cash strapped government can tax-raid them a’ la Gordon Brown in the UK. People should focus on accumulating wealth during their working life and after that, a train ticket to dignitas.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    I've seen some left-leaning economists propose raiding 401(k) plans, but it never goes anywhere.

    When Obama suggested limiting 529 Plan deferments for the wealthy, wealthy Democratic voters went ballistic. The proposal was unceremoniously dropped and never mentioned again.
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  22. @Thorfinnsson
    Real Soon Now

    See point #4 in this comment: http://www.unz.com/akarlin/putin-raised-the-retirement-age-and-thats-a-good-thing/#comment-2396413

    4 – Plan will be difficult to implement owing to widespread public incompetence about financial markets and hysterical, irrational fear and loathing about THE BANKS, FIAT MONEY, and THE FEDERAL RESERVE
     
    Paying down debt is deflationary and, all else equal, increases the value of the currency.

    Paying down debt is deflationary and, all else equal, increases the value of the currency

    That’s true of the debt you can afford to repay. The US government cannot afford to repay its debt without plunging the value of the US $. What’s more, it keeps borrowing like there is no tomorrow. Every US citizen now owes more than $63,000, and most of them never had that much money in their lives.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    Why on Earth would the US government pay off the debt to begin with? That was only done once in American history--by Andrew Jackson.

    Even if the US government DID choose to pay off the national debt for some crazy reason, it would be done slowly over time. You know, just like how you pay off your mortgage over 30 years.

    Deficits of this size this late in the economic cycle aren't responsible, but not really all that concerning.

    But, hypothetically, let's say the government destroys the value of the currency. That makes defined-benefit pensions useless as well.
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  23. I naturally assume that all money that the government takes from me will be money that I’ll never see again.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    Exactly - that's the rule of thumb I live by.

    Peace.l
    , @Thorfinnsson
    Social Security has been going strong for over 80 years now. Neither Ronald Reagan nor George W Bush lasted long when they tried to mess with the system.

    But a wise assumption none the less.

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  24. Talha says:
    @Thorfinnsson
    Indeed, which is why these decisions would not be undertaken by them.

    As an example I recently discovered that my secretary, who is 52, only has $10,000 in retirement assets. Her husband has none. With her current 401(k) contribution rate she'll only have $100,000 in retirement assets when she reaches 65. Her husband has no retirement assets and will soon be unable to work since he is a roofer and has a drinking problem. Thank God for Social Security and the fact they own their home outright. I foresee a reverse mortgage in their future.

    Needless to say when she comes back to work (plant is closed next week for the holiday) I will talk to her about this so she doesn't end up destitute in her old age.

    There would be a mandatory minimum contribution, a maximum withdrawal limit, and the plan would invest in a target date fund with a diversified portfolio of equities, bonds, REITs, and perhaps some international assets (hedge against currency risk).

    Needless to stay the target date fund would be strictly rules-based--absolutely no high-fee active managers of any kind.

    The sort of plan a single person could run with four hours a week of work: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-05-04/a-small-college-s-endowment-manager-beat-harvard-with-index-funds

    Do they have kids – aka the old-school retirement plan?

    Peace.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    Two daughters, one of whom is personally successful and the other has married decently.

    In between their kids, their house, and Social Security they will avoid deprivation.
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  25. Talha says:
    @Daniel Chieh
    I naturally assume that all money that the government takes from me will be money that I'll never see again.

    Exactly – that’s the rule of thumb I live by.

    Peace.l

    Read More
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  26. @AnonFromTN

    Paying down debt is deflationary and, all else equal, increases the value of the currency
     
    That’s true of the debt you can afford to repay. The US government cannot afford to repay its debt without plunging the value of the US $. What’s more, it keeps borrowing like there is no tomorrow. Every US citizen now owes more than $63,000, and most of them never had that much money in their lives.

    Why on Earth would the US government pay off the debt to begin with? That was only done once in American history–by Andrew Jackson.

    Even if the US government DID choose to pay off the national debt for some crazy reason, it would be done slowly over time. You know, just like how you pay off your mortgage over 30 years.

    Deficits of this size this late in the economic cycle aren’t responsible, but not really all that concerning.

    But, hypothetically, let’s say the government destroys the value of the currency. That makes defined-benefit pensions useless as well.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Felix Keverich
    You have to pay off your debt when it matures. But at this point US goverment is basically running a ponzi scheme with its debt. It borrows new money to repay what they borrowed before and also cover the (rapidly growing) cost of interest payments on the existing debt.

    All ponzi schemes collapse in the long-run. At some point US government is going to run out of people willing to buy its new debt, and will have to turn to agressive money-printing. Or it might default on its debt. Either way, US dollar will be finished as a reserve currency and will likely experience a dramatic devaluation.
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  27. @g2k
    Not really as any future cash strapped government can tax-raid them a' la Gordon Brown in the UK. People should focus on accumulating wealth during their working life and after that, a train ticket to dignitas.

    I’ve seen some left-leaning economists propose raiding 401(k) plans, but it never goes anywhere.

    When Obama suggested limiting 529 Plan deferments for the wealthy, wealthy Democratic voters went ballistic. The proposal was unceremoniously dropped and never mentioned again.

    Read More
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  28. @Daniel Chieh
    I naturally assume that all money that the government takes from me will be money that I'll never see again.

    Social Security has been going strong for over 80 years now. Neither Ronald Reagan nor George W Bush lasted long when they tried to mess with the system.

    But a wise assumption none the less.

    Read More
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  29. @Talha
    Do they have kids - aka the old-school retirement plan?

    Peace.

    Two daughters, one of whom is personally successful and the other has married decently.

    In between their kids, their house, and Social Security they will avoid deprivation.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    Excellent - good for them - may God safeguard their future. I hope the kids remember the inestimable debt they owe to their parents.

    Peace.
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  30. @Thorfinnsson
    More on this:

    Shifting pensions from publicly-funded defined benefit to privately-financed defined contribution would make the retirement age nearly irrelevant for most workers.

    You could retire at any age provided you are limited to a maximum annual withdrawal which ensures that your capital will never be exhausted. Historically in America this is 4%, which is called the 4% rule. The inventor of the rule now suggests a 2.6% rule instead owing to expensive equities and bonds (as of last year--equities aren't expensive anymore). The government can play it safe and declare 2.5%.

    https://www.fool.com/retirement/2017/06/11/forget-the-4-retirement-rule-heres-a-smarter-way-t.aspx

    Amass $2,000,000 in the pension account by the time you're 40 and comfortable living off $50,000 per year? Go for it!

    Useful tool: https://firecalc.com/

    Higher withdrawal rates are permissible as the person nears death for obvious reasons.

    Minimum contribution levels would be set to ensure steady retirement income comparable to one's wages by the time one reaches 70½.

    The government could backstop the plan by guaranteeing a certain monthly benefit after the age of 70½ to ensure public trust. But it would likely never need to back that guarantee.

    Downsides to this plan:

    1 - Transition costs
    2 - SJWs will no doubt call for boycotts of certain stocks (though this could be an upside for value investors--think about it)
    3 - Vulnerable to special interest capture (e.g. high-fee "active managers" might get the right to invest on the public's behalf)
    4 - Plan will be difficult to implement owing to widespread public incompetence about financial markets and hysterical, irrational fear and loathing about THE BANKS, FIAT MONEY, and THE FEDERAL RESERVE

    Amass $2,000,000 in the pension account by the time you’re 40

    Did they ever teach you the times table or simple math? To do what you propose you have to save ~$100,000 a year between 25 and 40 years of age and invest the money with a decent rate of return. What fraction of the US population, where current median household (not personal!) income is ~$56,000, can afford to salt away ~$100,000 a year?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    Yes, and since I grew up in a capitalist country they also taught me about compound interest.

    Only $46,377 in annual contributions are required for someone who starts work at age 22 to gain a portfolio value of $2m by the age of 40.

    This is using a total return rate of 8.6%, which is the long-term CAGR of the S&P 500 dating back to 1871.

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  31. @AnonFromTN

    Amass $2,000,000 in the pension account by the time you’re 40
     
    Did they ever teach you the times table or simple math? To do what you propose you have to save ~$100,000 a year between 25 and 40 years of age and invest the money with a decent rate of return. What fraction of the US population, where current median household (not personal!) income is ~$56,000, can afford to salt away ~$100,000 a year?

    Yes, and since I grew up in a capitalist country they also taught me about compound interest.

    Only $46,377 in annual contributions are required for someone who starts work at age 22 to gain a portfolio value of $2m by the age of 40.

    This is using a total return rate of 8.6%, which is the long-term CAGR of the S&P 500 dating back to 1871.

    Read More
    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    Fallacy of composition: if everyone would save so much, the economy would collapse, and so they wouldn’t save so much.
    , @AnonFromTN
    If you sincerely believe that saving $46,377 per person per year out of ~$56,000 per household per year is doable, there is no point arguing with you. I can only advise you to get some math training, or visit your shrink, whichever seems easier.
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  32. Talha says:
    @Thorfinnsson
    Two daughters, one of whom is personally successful and the other has married decently.

    In between their kids, their house, and Social Security they will avoid deprivation.

    Excellent – good for them – may God safeguard their future. I hope the kids remember the inestimable debt they owe to their parents.

    Peace.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    I believe she talks to both her daughters on the telephone daily, so that seems likely.

    But if nothing else perhaps I can avert her becoming a burden on her daughters in the future.

    If she increases her 401(k) contribution to 20% of her paycheck and works until age 70 she can have $15,000 in retirement income annually without drawing down the principal. That goes a long way here, especially when you own your home outright.
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  33. @Talha
    Excellent - good for them - may God safeguard their future. I hope the kids remember the inestimable debt they owe to their parents.

    Peace.

    I believe she talks to both her daughters on the telephone daily, so that seems likely.

    But if nothing else perhaps I can avert her becoming a burden on her daughters in the future.

    If she increases her 401(k) contribution to 20% of her paycheck and works until age 70 she can have $15,000 in retirement income annually without drawing down the principal. That goes a long way here, especially when you own your home outright.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha

    I believe she talks to both her daughters on the telephone daily, so that seems likely.
     
    That's awesome - I fully support you taking your time to help the people that work for you. I wish more people looked after the people under them on a purely volunteer basis. We need to bring this kind of thinking back. Deeds like this will not be overlooked on the Day of Judgement.

    I am in a management position and my teachers have counseled me to consider myself to be in service of those that report to me and look out for their needs. You have inspired me; it's been a while since I called them to just check up on them and see how their family life is going.

    May God help you get all your employs on a firm financial footing for their twilight years.

    Peace.

    I'm telling you man, you're making it harder not to support House Thorfinsson. Again though, charity is good and should be represented on the crest but NO FLOWERS!

    , @Brutus
    [AK: Redacted].
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  34. Talha says:
    @Thorfinnsson
    I believe she talks to both her daughters on the telephone daily, so that seems likely.

    But if nothing else perhaps I can avert her becoming a burden on her daughters in the future.

    If she increases her 401(k) contribution to 20% of her paycheck and works until age 70 she can have $15,000 in retirement income annually without drawing down the principal. That goes a long way here, especially when you own your home outright.

    I believe she talks to both her daughters on the telephone daily, so that seems likely.

    That’s awesome – I fully support you taking your time to help the people that work for you. I wish more people looked after the people under them on a purely volunteer basis. We need to bring this kind of thinking back. Deeds like this will not be overlooked on the Day of Judgement.

    I am in a management position and my teachers have counseled me to consider myself to be in service of those that report to me and look out for their needs. You have inspired me; it’s been a while since I called them to just check up on them and see how their family life is going.

    May God help you get all your employs on a firm financial footing for their twilight years.

    Peace.

    I’m telling you man, you’re making it harder not to support House Thorfinsson. Again though, charity is good and should be represented on the crest but NO FLOWERS!

    Read More
    • Replies: @Dan Hayes
    Talha:

    Of interest was brother Thorfinnsson's comment regarding one of his mentees:

    "If she didn't already have kids, small tits, and brown eyes I would ask her to marry me."
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  35. utu says:

    all of them without exception are infinitely more admirable than this whining about getting their gibsmedats

    It’s great to be rich. You do not have to go on the streets to make a protest that you want to be richer. It is enough to support LBGT and other identity politics and some other freedoms and liberties, including crossing the borders and ‘nobody is illegal’ thing. You go high, when them the ‘gibsmedats’ riffraff goes low. And then you may even get a ‘moral’ approval from the Karlins of this world.

    Read More
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  36. Cyrano says:

    This is another area where the Russians are clearly not as clever as their “partners” in the west – as Putin might say.

    In the west they justify the ever rising numbers of new immigrants with the need for someone to pay the ever increasing costs of funding the pension system.

    Since Russia has no significant immigration, they have no one else to rely on to pay for the rising cost of pensions due to extended life expectancy.

    While in the west if they really want to solve the problem of financing the pension system, all they have to do is import enough immigrants – and hopefully somewhere down the road, the new immigrants will be kind enough to introduce a wide euthanasia laws for the old white people – so they don’t have to worry about being a burden on the pension system anymore.

    Read More
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  37. iffen says:
    @Thorfinnsson
    Indeed, which is why these decisions would not be undertaken by them.

    As an example I recently discovered that my secretary, who is 52, only has $10,000 in retirement assets. Her husband has none. With her current 401(k) contribution rate she'll only have $100,000 in retirement assets when she reaches 65. Her husband has no retirement assets and will soon be unable to work since he is a roofer and has a drinking problem. Thank God for Social Security and the fact they own their home outright. I foresee a reverse mortgage in their future.

    Needless to say when she comes back to work (plant is closed next week for the holiday) I will talk to her about this so she doesn't end up destitute in her old age.

    There would be a mandatory minimum contribution, a maximum withdrawal limit, and the plan would invest in a target date fund with a diversified portfolio of equities, bonds, REITs, and perhaps some international assets (hedge against currency risk).

    Needless to stay the target date fund would be strictly rules-based--absolutely no high-fee active managers of any kind.

    The sort of plan a single person could run with four hours a week of work: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-05-04/a-small-college-s-endowment-manager-beat-harvard-with-index-funds

    Thor, you are dear to my heart. Build me a company town with a good c0mmissary.

    Read More
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  38. @AnonFromTN
    Welcome to the club! By the time I retire the US Social Security system will be broke, primarily because the US government will never repay what it “borrowed” from it, as this government is already 21 trillion in the hole and keeps digging. Another alternative is no better: to repay its debt the US government will have to devalue the US $ about to about 10% of its current purchasing power. Then the Social Security payments would be what they promise numerically, but that would be enough to buy a few burgers. Brave new world!

    They’ll raise the retirement age, raise the payroll tax, or cut benefits. Or some combination of all three. If Paul Craig Roberts is still alive when they do so we can expect a flood of outraged columns. :)

    And Social Security payments are indexed to inflation.

    $21 trillion sounds like a big scary number but is not really a big deal. Lots of ordinary workers take out home mortgages which exceed their income five times (or more) and don’t run into trouble. And the US government owns assets worth $200 trillion or so.

    While running trillion Dollar deficits this late into an economic expansion is dubious, Scott Adams’ Law of Slow Moving problems applies.

    Read More
    • Replies: @bjondo
    Indexed to a fake inflation.

    Maybe one reason to get rid of good jobs is to bankrupt Soc Sec to go along with president's stealing from the fund.

    Fund Soc Sec same way as DoD, CIA: print the money (most will be used internally)(and nationalize the Fed) and drugs.
    , @Mishra
    First time I've heard of it. And he makes pretty good sense except for the part where he believes that immigration from Mexico has reversed itself.

    http://blog.dilbert.com/2013/04/15/fact-checking-adams-law-of-slow-moving-disasters/

    Social Security (which I freely admit has been run as a ponzi scheme and piggy bank) is easily fixed by means-testing of benefits--on a sliding scale of course--and separately by raising or removing the payroll cap. Rich people will complain about both, of course, but that's not the point. The point is that SS is easily fixed.

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  39. Dan Hayes says:
    @Talha

    I believe she talks to both her daughters on the telephone daily, so that seems likely.
     
    That's awesome - I fully support you taking your time to help the people that work for you. I wish more people looked after the people under them on a purely volunteer basis. We need to bring this kind of thinking back. Deeds like this will not be overlooked on the Day of Judgement.

    I am in a management position and my teachers have counseled me to consider myself to be in service of those that report to me and look out for their needs. You have inspired me; it's been a while since I called them to just check up on them and see how their family life is going.

    May God help you get all your employs on a firm financial footing for their twilight years.

    Peace.

    I'm telling you man, you're making it harder not to support House Thorfinsson. Again though, charity is good and should be represented on the crest but NO FLOWERS!

    Talha:

    Of interest was brother Thorfinnsson’s comment regarding one of his mentees:

    “If she didn’t already have kids, small tits, and brown eyes I would ask her to marry me.”

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    The emperor must have his harem... ;)

    But all kidding aside, his motivations in the elderly couple is obviously different. As I've said before; we must encourage the good and discourage the bad in people - no one's perfect.

    Peace.

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  40. Talha says:
    @Dan Hayes
    Talha:

    Of interest was brother Thorfinnsson's comment regarding one of his mentees:

    "If she didn't already have kids, small tits, and brown eyes I would ask her to marry me."

    The emperor must have his harem… ;)

    But all kidding aside, his motivations in the elderly couple is obviously different. As I’ve said before; we must encourage the good and discourage the bad in people – no one’s perfect.

    Peace.

    Read More
    • Agree: Dan Hayes
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  41. bjondo says:
    @Thorfinnsson
    They'll raise the retirement age, raise the payroll tax, or cut benefits. Or some combination of all three. If Paul Craig Roberts is still alive when they do so we can expect a flood of outraged columns. :)

    And Social Security payments are indexed to inflation.

    $21 trillion sounds like a big scary number but is not really a big deal. Lots of ordinary workers take out home mortgages which exceed their income five times (or more) and don't run into trouble. And the US government owns assets worth $200 trillion or so.

    While running trillion Dollar deficits this late into an economic expansion is dubious, Scott Adams' Law of Slow Moving problems applies.

    Indexed to a fake inflation.

    Maybe one reason to get rid of good jobs is to bankrupt Soc Sec to go along with president’s stealing from the fund.

    Fund Soc Sec same way as DoD, CIA: print the money (most will be used internally)(and nationalize the Fed) and drugs.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    Tell me why it's fake. John Williams' Shadow Stats, which has the same nominal price it did a decade ago?
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  42. @iffen
    Disagree!!

    I can give you the example of Hungary, with which I’m fairly familiar with. Pensioners’ number only reached 1 million in 1980. Around 2008 (when I was reading about it) it was well above 3 million. Meanwhile, the working age population went down. So there were roughly 5 million people supporting a few hundred thousands in the 1970s (reaching 1 million by the end of the decade), and maybe 4 million supporting over 3 million pensioners in the 2000s. Meanwhile, the average pension in the 1970s was roughly a third of the average salary, but it grew to almost 90% of the average salary by the mid-2000s. To top it off, the 4 million workers in the 2000s were promised that they’d get nearly nothing in exchange for that generous support of the older generations, because they changed the rules around 2007, that anyone retiring after that would receive much lower pensions. I know people who retired at that time, because if they waited a few more years (there were cases of people who could delay it), they’d have received much lower pensions. I’m sure the dynamics is similar, there’s one generation hugely benefiting and the ones before or after don’t.

    It’s a regular gibsmedat.

    Read More
    • Replies: @iffen
    It’s a regular gibsmedat.

    No it is not.

    Obviously any pension system should operate in an actuarially sound manner, so no discussion of that aspect is required.


    The American Social Security System is a pay-as-you go fund. The defining feature is the “concealed” forced savings imposed on the participants.

    If peons could be counted on to save for retirement in Thor’s plan, the Social Security System would never have been necessary. In fact, it is a defense against gibsmedat.

    All true Republicans in America oppose the existence of SS as did their party at its creation. You should note two defining features of cucks like Speaker Ryan are support for unlimited immigration, (illegal is the best kind), and support for “reform” of the SS System. Elaborate plans like Thor’s are merely a ruse to eliminate the fund.

    Anti-working class people like Thor believe workers should work until they drop. Also, note that he didn’t make a proposal for reform of the Disability Fund which, in fact, is in deep do-do, including being scammed nationwide, but no one wants to work on a “real” problem like that.
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  43. @Thorfinnsson
    The solution to this is to turn pensions into defined-contribution accounts which are the private property of the contributor. Obviously this was not feasible when pensions were first introduced, but with today's financial markets there is no reason not to do so.

    Though I suppose financial markets in Russia are not yet sufficiently mature to entrust people's retirement savings to the market.

    In Western countries this is however a no-brainer.

    Another nice benefit of defined-contribution accounts is that when the pensioner dies, someone gets to inherit the money.

    That’s a fallacy.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    Why?
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  44. @Thorfinnsson
    Yes, and since I grew up in a capitalist country they also taught me about compound interest.

    Only $46,377 in annual contributions are required for someone who starts work at age 22 to gain a portfolio value of $2m by the age of 40.

    This is using a total return rate of 8.6%, which is the long-term CAGR of the S&P 500 dating back to 1871.

    Fallacy of composition: if everyone would save so much, the economy would collapse, and so they wouldn’t save so much.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    Household savings rate of India and China would like to meet you.
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  45. Oh, I’ve been waiting for Anatoly to write a post about this!

    The reason why support for Putin fell the most among the middle-aged is that these are the people that will be immediately and negatively affected by the reform. Young people can actually benefit from it in the short term, as they may get a bigger piece of the pie. Remember, pension system is a classic redistribution scheme. Less GDP that’s spent on pensions means a greater share of national income, that could be devoted to other things, that young people use.

    Read More
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  46. @AnonFromTN
    Sounds familiar. “We will do what’s best for you, whether you like it or not”. That’s Bolshevik policy. We know full well where this lead the country.
    What the government is aiming at is totally irrelevant. Previous one was ostensibly aiming for full communism (everybody gets everything according to his/her needs), and where is it? Pipe dreams do not justify real policies.

    Here is the crux of problem: Russian government doesn’t have the money to pay pensions to everyone, who is currently eligible for them. Russian Pension fund is already running a huge deficit, up to 2% of GDP, which is projected to explode in the future, if there is no reform. This threatens stability of Russia’s government finances.

    There are two ways the government can adress the situation: it can gradually devalue the size of the benefits, spreading them in a thin layer across a growing army of pensioners. Or it can raise the retirement age, thus reducing the number of people eligible for benefits.

    Most economists agree that raising retirement age is the more logical, humane way to adress the problem of pension system that is radiply running out of money.

    Read More
    • Agree: Thorfinnsson
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  47. melanf says:

    The thing that is absolutely necessary to do is to equalize the retirement age of men and women. The fact that women rely on a pension 5 years earlier than men (and they live for 10 get longer) – real disgusting.

    Read More
    • Agree: German_reader
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  48. @Thorfinnsson
    Why on Earth would the US government pay off the debt to begin with? That was only done once in American history--by Andrew Jackson.

    Even if the US government DID choose to pay off the national debt for some crazy reason, it would be done slowly over time. You know, just like how you pay off your mortgage over 30 years.

    Deficits of this size this late in the economic cycle aren't responsible, but not really all that concerning.

    But, hypothetically, let's say the government destroys the value of the currency. That makes defined-benefit pensions useless as well.

    You have to pay off your debt when it matures. But at this point US goverment is basically running a ponzi scheme with its debt. It borrows new money to repay what they borrowed before and also cover the (rapidly growing) cost of interest payments on the existing debt.

    All ponzi schemes collapse in the long-run. At some point US government is going to run out of people willing to buy its new debt, and will have to turn to agressive money-printing. Or it might default on its debt. Either way, US dollar will be finished as a reserve currency and will likely experience a dramatic devaluation.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    You DON'T need to pay off your debt when it matures, for the simple reason that you can roll it over. Of course you must repay existing bondholders, but you can do so by selling new bonds.

    On a personal devil I use margin debt and 0% introductory credit card debt where available to magnify my returns.

    Daily volume in the Treasury market is $500 billion. Capacity is truly massive.

    That said I don't approve of going from our current gov't debt levels to Japanese levels, which could happen.
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  49. @reiner Tor
    That’s a fallacy.

    Why?

    Read More
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  50. @reiner Tor
    Fallacy of composition: if everyone would save so much, the economy would collapse, and so they wouldn’t save so much.

    Household savings rate of India and China would like to meet you.

    Read More
    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    70%?

    Even if you manage to save that much, you need further savers to draw your savings down. In other words, you need the next generation. Obviously selfish childless people will have higher savings rates than people raising the next generation. Therefore your system of providing these people with a taxpayer financed court system to enforce their contracts will still be a gibsmedat. Once you understand that, you will lose your interest in the particulars of the pension system, whatever it is. Any system which rewards childlessness is not ideal, in my opinion. The distribution of pensions might as well be completely random.
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  51. @Felix Keverich
    You have to pay off your debt when it matures. But at this point US goverment is basically running a ponzi scheme with its debt. It borrows new money to repay what they borrowed before and also cover the (rapidly growing) cost of interest payments on the existing debt.

    All ponzi schemes collapse in the long-run. At some point US government is going to run out of people willing to buy its new debt, and will have to turn to agressive money-printing. Or it might default on its debt. Either way, US dollar will be finished as a reserve currency and will likely experience a dramatic devaluation.

    You DON’T need to pay off your debt when it matures, for the simple reason that you can roll it over. Of course you must repay existing bondholders, but you can do so by selling new bonds.

    On a personal devil I use margin debt and 0% introductory credit card debt where available to magnify my returns.

    Daily volume in the Treasury market is $500 billion. Capacity is truly massive.

    That said I don’t approve of going from our current gov’t debt levels to Japanese levels, which could happen.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Felix Keverich

    You DON’T need to pay off your debt when it matures, for the simple reason that you can roll it over. Of course you must repay existing bondholders, but you can do so by selling new bonds.
     
    This is what US government is doing at this time, but it won't be able to do so indefinitely, as eventually people will stop buying US debt.

    That said I don’t approve of going from our current gov’t debt levels to Japanese levels, which could happen.

     

    This will totally happen, and you seem to be taking a light view of the situation. Think about it: USA is running trillion dollar deficits (http://www.businessinsider.com/us-budget-deficit-1-trillion-2019-cbo-report-2018-4) at the top of the business cycle, imagine what will happen during the next recession.

    Demand for American debt will evaporate once the market gets the idea, that US is going broke.

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  52. @bjondo
    Indexed to a fake inflation.

    Maybe one reason to get rid of good jobs is to bankrupt Soc Sec to go along with president's stealing from the fund.

    Fund Soc Sec same way as DoD, CIA: print the money (most will be used internally)(and nationalize the Fed) and drugs.

    Tell me why it’s fake. John Williams’ Shadow Stats, which has the same nominal price it did a decade ago?

    Read More
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  53. gate666 says:
    @Spisarevski
    People are paying mandatory pension tax for decades, it's disgusting to call the smaller amount they may or may not get back in the end "gibsmedats" and to call fighting for "LGBT rights" " infinitely more admirable", even if everything else you said is correct.

    why does altright hates gays.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    Because they're disgusting degenerates who primarily identify with their sexual "identity" and thus oppose us.
    , @DFH
    Because they molest children and create drug resistant gonnorhea
    , @iffen
    I'm not alt-right, but I share many of their concerns and agree with many of their analyses of social and political events.

    Normal homosexuals should go back into the closet.

    We are tired of hearing about LGBQT(n) crap. Some of this is straight up mental illness and we don't want to be run by the mentally ill and their supporters.


    Normal homosexuality is a "normal" abnormality and they should not be persecuted. However, as I said, they need to stay in the closet, or pretty close to it, and absolutely should not open up about their travails.
    , @The Big Red Scary
    Around here, I'm the moderate hippie, so I'm not the person to ask. But as I see it, the problem isn't that some small percentage of the population suffers from a sexual short circuit, but that an even smaller percentage of people is trying to force the majority to "celebrate" this short circuit.
    , @Daniel Chieh
    Why do you write only one-liners?
    , @Daniel Chieh
    I am fond of the works of Oscar Wilde and do not have anything per se against homosexuals; the issue is that normalizing them with ridiculous conceits such as same sex marriage incurs vast negative externalities upon society. There's no real point for them to be "out of the closet"; among the other costs of doing so is to further reinforce the dynamics of feminism, as they are typically excellent allies to feminists who seek to destroy the "gender binary."

    Its a great case of how individual liberty they seek is ruinous to the social commons of the society they live in. Its perfectly fine to have a few fag playwrights or independent women(or else we wouldn't have the fine iffen) but encouraging it as a whole can only bring us to the insanity of the modern day.
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  54. @gate666
    why does altright hates gays.

    Because they’re disgusting degenerates who primarily identify with their sexual “identity” and thus oppose us.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Guillaume Tell
    Not to mention the fact that they are full of horrible diseases.
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  55. @Thorfinnsson
    Household savings rate of India and China would like to meet you.

    70%?

    Even if you manage to save that much, you need further savers to draw your savings down. In other words, you need the next generation. Obviously selfish childless people will have higher savings rates than people raising the next generation. Therefore your system of providing these people with a taxpayer financed court system to enforce their contracts will still be a gibsmedat. Once you understand that, you will lose your interest in the particulars of the pension system, whatever it is. Any system which rewards childlessness is not ideal, in my opinion. The distribution of pensions might as well be completely random.

    Read More
    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    Sorry, over 80%.
    , @Thorfinnsson
    I have other plans for dealing with childlessness.
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  56. DFH says:
    @gate666
    why does altright hates gays.

    Because they molest children and create drug resistant gonnorhea

    Read More
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  57. @reiner Tor
    70%?

    Even if you manage to save that much, you need further savers to draw your savings down. In other words, you need the next generation. Obviously selfish childless people will have higher savings rates than people raising the next generation. Therefore your system of providing these people with a taxpayer financed court system to enforce their contracts will still be a gibsmedat. Once you understand that, you will lose your interest in the particulars of the pension system, whatever it is. Any system which rewards childlessness is not ideal, in my opinion. The distribution of pensions might as well be completely random.

    Sorry, over 80%.

    Read More
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  58. iffen says:
    @reiner Tor
    I can give you the example of Hungary, with which I’m fairly familiar with. Pensioners’ number only reached 1 million in 1980. Around 2008 (when I was reading about it) it was well above 3 million. Meanwhile, the working age population went down. So there were roughly 5 million people supporting a few hundred thousands in the 1970s (reaching 1 million by the end of the decade), and maybe 4 million supporting over 3 million pensioners in the 2000s. Meanwhile, the average pension in the 1970s was roughly a third of the average salary, but it grew to almost 90% of the average salary by the mid-2000s. To top it off, the 4 million workers in the 2000s were promised that they’d get nearly nothing in exchange for that generous support of the older generations, because they changed the rules around 2007, that anyone retiring after that would receive much lower pensions. I know people who retired at that time, because if they waited a few more years (there were cases of people who could delay it), they’d have received much lower pensions. I’m sure the dynamics is similar, there’s one generation hugely benefiting and the ones before or after don’t.

    It’s a regular gibsmedat.

    It’s a regular gibsmedat.

    No it is not.

    Obviously any pension system should operate in an actuarially sound manner, so no discussion of that aspect is required.

    The American Social Security System is a pay-as-you go fund. The defining feature is the “concealed” forced savings imposed on the participants.

    If peons could be counted on to save for retirement in Thor’s plan, the Social Security System would never have been necessary. In fact, it is a defense against gibsmedat.

    All true Republicans in America oppose the existence of SS as did their party at its creation. You should note two defining features of cucks like Speaker Ryan are support for unlimited immigration, (illegal is the best kind), and support for “reform” of the SS System. Elaborate plans like Thor’s are merely a ruse to eliminate the fund.

    Anti-working class people like Thor believe workers should work until they drop. Also, note that he didn’t make a proposal for reform of the Disability Fund which, in fact, is in deep do-do, including being scammed nationwide, but no one wants to work on a “real” problem like that.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    I do indeed believe people should work until they drop, but I'm not opposed to old-age security.

    Hard to be harsh on an elderly person who no longer has the strength and energy of a young man.

    My plan doesn't eliminate old age security at all and further allows the elderly to help their grandchildren.

    What's wrong with that?

    I didn't make a proposal for a disability fund since I've never thought about the problem honestly. I did encounter it once however. When I was in jail for a few days five years ago there was a fellow inmate, an 18 year old black guy, who was on disability yet clearly able-bodied and healthy. I'll get back to you.

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  59. The government plans to increase spending on health (necessary) and education (much more skeptical) to move them closer in line with the OECD average

    A few months ago, I suggested making university admissions more stringent, and restricting funding to the sciences, the harder-nosed social sciences, and elite subjects in the humanities. After more thought, I propose abolishing public universities altogether, turning the more productive departments into research institutes, and offering entry-level salaries for talented young people to do a few internships in different research institutes, after which they can apply for more permanent positions.
    The point is that currently most students in universities have no real interest in the subject they are studying and so don’t really learn anyway, while those who really do want to learn would do so more productively in the setting of a research institute. But one or the other, we need to restructure society to avoid prolonged adolescence. This plan seems likely to decrease the poz and increase fertility.

    As for more money for health care, I am also skeptical without seeing data that the money is being effectively spent. If your goal is to increase life expectancy, rather than just to make people think that the government is “doing something”, then it seems almost certain that there are cheaper and more effective ways to do this than pouring money into a rotten bureaucracy run by pseudo-scientists. As a rule, the newer an institution in Russia (and perhaps in other places), the better it runs. мой документы comes to mind. So if there is a real need to improve health care in Russia, then I suspect the only way to do it is to build a new institution outside of the control of the traditional bureaucracy.

    Speaking of life expectancy, why do humans (and some other mammals, such as whales and elephants) long outlive fertility? One explanation is that in the past long-lived grandmothers increased the chances of survival of their grandchildren (mother could go foraging further while grandmother watched the toddlers). Nowadays, having a grandmother to help with the kids certainly makes having another more attractive.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    If you really wanted to increase span and quality of life, preventative health care should be emphasized a lot more. I'm doubtful that is going to happen - obesity is probably one of the most major health concerns that we can tackle now, but how are you going to do that when "fat activism" is a thing?
    , @Felix Keverich
    I don't think this is going to work. University diploma is an important status symbol in Russia: if you come from a good family, you're expected to study in university. All your friends will study in university. Most white collar jobs won't even consider a candidate without a diploma. So what you're proposing in effect is to make higher education in Russia private like in America, forcing young people to take on loads of debt to finance their studies, delaying having kids etc.
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  60. @Thorfinnsson
    You DON'T need to pay off your debt when it matures, for the simple reason that you can roll it over. Of course you must repay existing bondholders, but you can do so by selling new bonds.

    On a personal devil I use margin debt and 0% introductory credit card debt where available to magnify my returns.

    Daily volume in the Treasury market is $500 billion. Capacity is truly massive.

    That said I don't approve of going from our current gov't debt levels to Japanese levels, which could happen.

    You DON’T need to pay off your debt when it matures, for the simple reason that you can roll it over. Of course you must repay existing bondholders, but you can do so by selling new bonds.

    This is what US government is doing at this time, but it won’t be able to do so indefinitely, as eventually people will stop buying US debt.

    That said I don’t approve of going from our current gov’t debt levels to Japanese levels, which could happen.

    This will totally happen, and you seem to be taking a light view of the situation. Think about it: USA is running trillion dollar deficits (http://www.businessinsider.com/us-budget-deficit-1-trillion-2019-cbo-report-2018-4) at the top of the business cycle, imagine what will happen during the next recession.

    Demand for American debt will evaporate once the market gets the idea, that US is going broke.

    Read More
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  61. iffen says:
    @gate666
    why does altright hates gays.

    I’m not alt-right, but I share many of their concerns and agree with many of their analyses of social and political events.

    Normal homosexuals should go back into the closet.

    We are tired of hearing about LGBQT(n) crap. Some of this is straight up mental illness and we don’t want to be run by the mentally ill and their supporters.

    Normal homosexuality is a “normal” abnormality and they should not be persecuted. However, as I said, they need to stay in the closet, or pretty close to it, and absolutely should not open up about their travails.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Guillaume Tell
    Thank you, unlike you I am a full-blown extremist intolerant right-winger, but your take on the fag thing is an exact reflection of my opinion. I could not have summed it up in a better way than you did.
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  62. @gate666
    why does altright hates gays.

    Around here, I’m the moderate hippie, so I’m not the person to ask. But as I see it, the problem isn’t that some small percentage of the population suffers from a sexual short circuit, but that an even smaller percentage of people is trying to force the majority to “celebrate” this short circuit.

    Read More
    • Agree: iffen, Talha
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  63. Speaking of retirement and index funds, I have a question.

    Suppose I pay into an index fund, say Vanguard, using currency X (X could be USD, CAD, or GBP, for example), and that index fund invests “globally”. Now say currency X undergoes serious devaluation.
    Since the index fund invests “globally”, and not just in the home country of currency X, my intuition is that one should be insulated from the devaluation and it shouldn’t matter terribly much which X you choose. If there were gains to be had by paying into an index fund in one currency rather than another, then presumably many people would already be doing that (there are no hundred dollar bills lying on the sidewalk).

    Is my intuition basically correct?

    Thorfinsson, if I were one of your peons, and told you I could save 15,000 a year for the next twenty years, what would you suggest?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Felix Keverich
    You sound like you have zero experience with investing. You don't pay into an index fund, you buy shares of an index fund. And you can only pay with USD if it's a US-based fund.
    , @Thorfinnsson
    What nationality are you? This matters before I can answer your question specifically.

    Since you mentioned Vanguard I assume you're American?

    Jack Bogle incidentally is a true hero. The man would be worth $10 billion today if he had organized Vanguard as an ordinary corporation. Instead he chose to forego great wealth in favor of helping middle class investors.

    Along with Charles Schwab he did more for ordinary people's finances than any other American in the past century.

    Sad that these two living legends will soon be gone.
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  64. @gate666
    why does altright hates gays.

    Why do you write only one-liners?

    Read More
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  65. @The Big Red Scary

    The government plans to increase spending on health (necessary) and education (much more skeptical) to move them closer in line with the OECD average
     
    A few months ago, I suggested making university admissions more stringent, and restricting funding to the sciences, the harder-nosed social sciences, and elite subjects in the humanities. After more thought, I propose abolishing public universities altogether, turning the more productive departments into research institutes, and offering entry-level salaries for talented young people to do a few internships in different research institutes, after which they can apply for more permanent positions.
    The point is that currently most students in universities have no real interest in the subject they are studying and so don't really learn anyway, while those who really do want to learn would do so more productively in the setting of a research institute. But one or the other, we need to restructure society to avoid prolonged adolescence. This plan seems likely to decrease the poz and increase fertility.

    As for more money for health care, I am also skeptical without seeing data that the money is being effectively spent. If your goal is to increase life expectancy, rather than just to make people think that the government is "doing something", then it seems almost certain that there are cheaper and more effective ways to do this than pouring money into a rotten bureaucracy run by pseudo-scientists. As a rule, the newer an institution in Russia (and perhaps in other places), the better it runs. мой документы comes to mind. So if there is a real need to improve health care in Russia, then I suspect the only way to do it is to build a new institution outside of the control of the traditional bureaucracy.

    Speaking of life expectancy, why do humans (and some other mammals, such as whales and elephants) long outlive fertility? One explanation is that in the past long-lived grandmothers increased the chances of survival of their grandchildren (mother could go foraging further while grandmother watched the toddlers). Nowadays, having a grandmother to help with the kids certainly makes having another more attractive.

    If you really wanted to increase span and quality of life, preventative health care should be emphasized a lot more. I’m doubtful that is going to happen – obesity is probably one of the most major health concerns that we can tackle now, but how are you going to do that when “fat activism” is a thing?

    Read More
    • Replies: @iffen
    If you really wanted to increase span and quality of life, preventative health care should be emphasized a lot more.


    Absolutely, but herding cats seems to be one of those problems that no one can make progress on.
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  66. @Thorfinnsson
    Because they're disgusting degenerates who primarily identify with their sexual "identity" and thus oppose us.

    Not to mention the fact that they are full of horrible diseases.

    Read More
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  67. @iffen
    I'm not alt-right, but I share many of their concerns and agree with many of their analyses of social and political events.

    Normal homosexuals should go back into the closet.

    We are tired of hearing about LGBQT(n) crap. Some of this is straight up mental illness and we don't want to be run by the mentally ill and their supporters.


    Normal homosexuality is a "normal" abnormality and they should not be persecuted. However, as I said, they need to stay in the closet, or pretty close to it, and absolutely should not open up about their travails.

    Thank you, unlike you I am a full-blown extremist intolerant right-winger, but your take on the fag thing is an exact reflection of my opinion. I could not have summed it up in a better way than you did.

    Read More
    • Replies: @iffen
    unlike you I am a full-blown extremist intolerant right-winger, but your take on the fag thing is an exact reflection of my opinion


    Thank you, and I have thought about this commonality, but it does not in any way make me want to revise my opinion. :)


    I don't really keep up with it, but I think some of the more showtime style alt-righters are light in the loafers.
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  68. @gate666
    why does altright hates gays.

    I am fond of the works of Oscar Wilde and do not have anything per se against homosexuals; the issue is that normalizing them with ridiculous conceits such as same sex marriage incurs vast negative externalities upon society. There’s no real point for them to be “out of the closet”; among the other costs of doing so is to further reinforce the dynamics of feminism, as they are typically excellent allies to feminists who seek to destroy the “gender binary.”

    Its a great case of how individual liberty they seek is ruinous to the social commons of the society they live in. Its perfectly fine to have a few fag playwrights or independent women(or else we wouldn’t have the fine iffen) but encouraging it as a whole can only bring us to the insanity of the modern day.

    Read More
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  69. OT

    Russia orders twelve Su-57 jets.

    https://www.rt.com/news/431340-su-57-first-contracts/

    Meanwhile, it might carry nuclear weapons.

    http://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-buzz/russias-su-57-might-have-sneaky-little-trick-its-sleeve-26105

    And some say it’s a total fraud because – wait for it! – it’s perhaps only good for downing American stealth fighters, but not so good for other stealth missions.

    https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/969994/russia-stealth-fighter-jet-features-su-57-photos-radars-beaming

    Read More
    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh

    Russia tried to sell the aircraft as a stealth jet to India, but they backed out in April citing a host of technological shortfalls, and as the relationship between the two nations cooled, Moscow cut its total order for Su-57s to just a dozen planes through 2025.

     

    Nothing about how Indians wanted the Russians to expose the code on the SU-57 and walk them through on how the code worked?
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  70. @reiner Tor
    OT

    Russia orders twelve Su-57 jets.

    https://www.rt.com/news/431340-su-57-first-contracts/

    Meanwhile, it might carry nuclear weapons.

    http://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-buzz/russias-su-57-might-have-sneaky-little-trick-its-sleeve-26105

    And some say it’s a total fraud because - wait for it! - it’s perhaps only good for downing American stealth fighters, but not so good for other stealth missions.

    https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/969994/russia-stealth-fighter-jet-features-su-57-photos-radars-beaming

    Russia tried to sell the aircraft as a stealth jet to India, but they backed out in April citing a host of technological shortfalls, and as the relationship between the two nations cooled, Moscow cut its total order for Su-57s to just a dozen planes through 2025.

    Nothing about how Indians wanted the Russians to expose the code on the SU-57 and walk them through on how the code worked?

    Read More
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  71. @The Big Red Scary

    The government plans to increase spending on health (necessary) and education (much more skeptical) to move them closer in line with the OECD average
     
    A few months ago, I suggested making university admissions more stringent, and restricting funding to the sciences, the harder-nosed social sciences, and elite subjects in the humanities. After more thought, I propose abolishing public universities altogether, turning the more productive departments into research institutes, and offering entry-level salaries for talented young people to do a few internships in different research institutes, after which they can apply for more permanent positions.
    The point is that currently most students in universities have no real interest in the subject they are studying and so don't really learn anyway, while those who really do want to learn would do so more productively in the setting of a research institute. But one or the other, we need to restructure society to avoid prolonged adolescence. This plan seems likely to decrease the poz and increase fertility.

    As for more money for health care, I am also skeptical without seeing data that the money is being effectively spent. If your goal is to increase life expectancy, rather than just to make people think that the government is "doing something", then it seems almost certain that there are cheaper and more effective ways to do this than pouring money into a rotten bureaucracy run by pseudo-scientists. As a rule, the newer an institution in Russia (and perhaps in other places), the better it runs. мой документы comes to mind. So if there is a real need to improve health care in Russia, then I suspect the only way to do it is to build a new institution outside of the control of the traditional bureaucracy.

    Speaking of life expectancy, why do humans (and some other mammals, such as whales and elephants) long outlive fertility? One explanation is that in the past long-lived grandmothers increased the chances of survival of their grandchildren (mother could go foraging further while grandmother watched the toddlers). Nowadays, having a grandmother to help with the kids certainly makes having another more attractive.

    I don’t think this is going to work. University diploma is an important status symbol in Russia: if you come from a good family, you’re expected to study in university. All your friends will study in university. Most white collar jobs won’t even consider a candidate without a diploma. So what you’re proposing in effect is to make higher education in Russia private like in America, forcing young people to take on loads of debt to finance their studies, delaying having kids etc.

    Read More
    • Replies: @melanf

    if you come from a good family, you’re expected to study in university.
     
    Or rather, if you are not Gopnik you’re expected to study in university
    , @The Big Red Scary

    University diploma is an important status symbol in Russia
     
    Russia is not the only country suffering from this disease.

    Most white collar jobs won’t even consider a candidate without a diploma.
     
    For the traditional highly skilled professions (medicine, law, and so on), you train in special schools and receive qualification after taking exams. While the system for such professional training could no doubt be made more efficient, I am not suggesting to completely abolish it.

    For most other white collar jobs, there is no reason not to be learning on the job. University is just a drawn out and expensive signaling exercise. Expensive to the state, which has to pay for it, and expensive to the individual in terms of lost opportunities (for becoming an adult, making a living, forming a family). Given a choice between someone who has made a more expensive signal and someone who hasn't, the employer is of course going to go for the more expensive signal. That's one reason why the universities have to be abolished, not just disincentivized.
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  72. iffen says:
    @Guillaume Tell
    Thank you, unlike you I am a full-blown extremist intolerant right-winger, but your take on the fag thing is an exact reflection of my opinion. I could not have summed it up in a better way than you did.

    unlike you I am a full-blown extremist intolerant right-winger, but your take on the fag thing is an exact reflection of my opinion

    Thank you, and I have thought about this commonality, but it does not in any way make me want to revise my opinion. :)

    I don’t really keep up with it, but I think some of the more showtime style alt-righters are light in the loafers.

    Read More
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  73. iffen says:

    R. Unz should take the money that he wastes trying to red-pill everyone on the Jew-matrix and fund a serious GWAS study on noblesse oblige. I think that its dying out can explain a lot about our condition today. Naturally, Thor, Dan and Talha should be the first three participants.

    Read More
    • Replies: @German_reader

    and fund a serious GWAS study on noblesse oblige. I think that its dying out can explain a lot about our condition today.
     
    Did noblesse oblige ever really exist? I'm not sure it was the predominant sentiment among American capitalists in previous eras, e.g. in the Gilded age when they had their hired goons gun down workers on strike.
    Part of the explanation surely must be that Western capitalists were somewhat restrained in what they could do as long as the big bad commie empire existed (though this doesn't mean communism was a good thing).
    I agree with you that it could be interesting if Ron Unz did something about this issue.
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  74. @The Big Red Scary
    Speaking of retirement and index funds, I have a question.

    Suppose I pay into an index fund, say Vanguard, using currency X (X could be USD, CAD, or GBP, for example), and that index fund invests "globally". Now say currency X undergoes serious devaluation.
    Since the index fund invests "globally", and not just in the home country of currency X, my intuition is that one should be insulated from the devaluation and it shouldn't matter terribly much which X you choose. If there were gains to be had by paying into an index fund in one currency rather than another, then presumably many people would already be doing that (there are no hundred dollar bills lying on the sidewalk).

    Is my intuition basically correct?

    Thorfinsson, if I were one of your peons, and told you I could save 15,000 a year for the next twenty years, what would you suggest?

    You sound like you have zero experience with investing. You don’t pay into an index fund, you buy shares of an index fund. And you can only pay with USD if it’s a US-based fund.

    Read More
    • Replies: @The Big Red Scary

    You sound like you have zero experience with investing.
     
    That's about right. When I was writing a thesis, I bought a house on bad advice. Fortunately it didn't ruin me. After that, I had poorly paid temporary research positions in various countries, where I paid 40% toward taxes and "benefits" and most of the rest toward my landlord's mortgage. Now I have a decently paid long-term research position and I'd eventually like to move my savings out of вклад at the bank and into something more long term.

    . And you can only pay with USD if it’s a US-based fund.
     
    I mentioned Vanguard, since they have funds based in US, Canada, and the UK. They require a bank account as well as a tax identification number based in one of those countries. If you can suggest a Russian equivalent into which I can look, I would be grateful.
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  75. iffen says:
    @Daniel Chieh
    If you really wanted to increase span and quality of life, preventative health care should be emphasized a lot more. I'm doubtful that is going to happen - obesity is probably one of the most major health concerns that we can tackle now, but how are you going to do that when "fat activism" is a thing?

    If you really wanted to increase span and quality of life, preventative health care should be emphasized a lot more.

    Absolutely, but herding cats seems to be one of those problems that no one can make progress on.

    Read More
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  76. melanf says:
    @Felix Keverich
    I don't think this is going to work. University diploma is an important status symbol in Russia: if you come from a good family, you're expected to study in university. All your friends will study in university. Most white collar jobs won't even consider a candidate without a diploma. So what you're proposing in effect is to make higher education in Russia private like in America, forcing young people to take on loads of debt to finance their studies, delaying having kids etc.

    if you come from a good family, you’re expected to study in university.

    Or rather, if you are not Gopnik you’re expected to study in university

    Read More
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  77. @iffen
    R. Unz should take the money that he wastes trying to red-pill everyone on the Jew-matrix and fund a serious GWAS study on noblesse oblige. I think that its dying out can explain a lot about our condition today. Naturally, Thor, Dan and Talha should be the first three participants.

    and fund a serious GWAS study on noblesse oblige. I think that its dying out can explain a lot about our condition today.

    Did noblesse oblige ever really exist? I’m not sure it was the predominant sentiment among American capitalists in previous eras, e.g. in the Gilded age when they had their hired goons gun down workers on strike.
    Part of the explanation surely must be that Western capitalists were somewhat restrained in what they could do as long as the big bad commie empire existed (though this doesn’t mean communism was a good thing).
    I agree with you that it could be interesting if Ron Unz did something about this issue.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    I think it was almost more of an agrarian elite rather than a merchantile elite thing. Its an arrogant thing in some ways, but I was raised with the sense that while I was superior to the proles, I also had to have patience and kindness for them because its not like they know better. Its an obligation to them in way.

    I've come to realize there's some truth to it: after being in corporate environments where everyone is rambling pointlessly and nothing is getting done, taking control of things and providing leadership(and taking on ownership/responsibility) really is a service to them. The sheer desire for a lot of people to avoid responsibility can be amazing, but there's no reason to have contempt for them: its who they are, and we have to work with them the best that is possible, with as much kindness and understanding as it is possible.

    American capitalists were seen as nouveau riche and crass, and their lack of noblesse oblige(and a host of other things) were traditionally criticized.
    , @iffen
    Did noblesse oblige ever really exist?

    I think that it did, of course it was never predominant. I’m not sure that I would try to find it in Robber Barons, although pure philanthropy can be found there if you look.

    I was thinking more along a strict HBD line and looking for it in actually existing aristocracy. We learned in the previous discussion that the questionable endogamy of various noble lines cannot be dismissed so it might not be feasible.

    Part of the explanation surely must be that Western capitalists were somewhat restrained in what they could do as long as the big bad commie empire existed (though this doesn’t mean communism was a good thing).

    Along these same lines, for the first time I read about the story of Konstantin Rokossovsky. When I read about extraordinary people like that I am completely humbled.
    , @Thorfinnsson
    My parents are Swedish Boomers and thus I was raised with an egalitarian ethos. It took me some time to realize that I am better than other people and have an obligation to help them.

    Also I'm not particularly noble--I think that idea stemmed from shitposting against Bliss and his we wuz kangz nonsense. One of my four grandparents was a noble. If you go far enough back in my family tree I am actually a descendant of a Holy Roman Emperor (Otto II). That said most people in my family are talented and accomplished.

    Noblesse oblige certainly existed and was in fact a matter of law. A lord was obligated to protect his subjects and provide them with housing. Failure to do so could result in a loss of title.

    As for Western capitalists it has been a mixed bag. There has long been a tendency to philanthropy (dating back to at least Fugger) and paternalism, but as you say one can easily find many examples of ruthlessness.

    My noblesse oblige is also partly self-interested. I pay high wages to get the best talent in town. I offer good benefits so they never quit. I help and counsel them so they emotionally identify with me.
    , @dfordoom

    Part of the explanation surely must be that Western capitalists were somewhat restrained in what they could do as long as the big bad commie empire existed (though this doesn’t mean communism was a good thing).
     
    Agreed. The big bad commie empire was a necessary evil. It was a useful reminder to capitalists that if they went too far the huddled masses might actually rise up and that would mean capitalists being lined up against the wall and shot.

    It's a very healthy thing for capitalists to be lined up against the wall and shot on a fairly regular basis.

    In fact it's a very healthy thing for ruling classes in general to face the possibility of being hanged from lamp-posts. It's necessary for a viable political and economic alternative to be seen to exist, as it did in the days of the Soviet Union. It doesn't have to be a wonderful alternative, as long as it actually exists it will serve its purpose of preventing ruling classes from becoming the sort of selfish short-sighted vicious amoral conniving scum that our current western ruling classes have become.
    , @Seraphim
    Noblesse oblige existed when noblesse existed. American capitalists were (are) ig-noble (from Latin ignobilis, from in- ‘not’ + gnobilis, older form of nobilis ‘noble’)=common, plebeian, vulgar
    (not honorable): degenerate, mean, base, vile, low-minded, reproachful, shameful, disgraceful.
    Noblesse oblige was the duty of nobility. But nowadays people have only 'rights'.
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  78. AP says:

    Did noblesse oblige ever really exist? I’m not sure it was the predominant sentiment among American capitalists in previous eras, e.g. in the Gilded age when they had their hired goons gun down workers on strike.

    https://www.philanthropyroundtable.org/almanac/people/hall-of-fame/detail/andrew-carnegie

    Andrew Carnegie

    Andrew Carnegie may be the most influential philanthropist in American history. The scale of his giving is almost without peer: adjusted for inflation, his donations exceed those of virtually everyone else in the nation’s history. The magnitude of his accomplishments is likewise historic: he built some 2,811 lending libraries around the globe, founded what became one of the world’s great research universities, endowed one of the nation’s most significant grantmakers, and established charitable organizations that are still active nearly a century after his death. And, perhaps uniquely among businessmen, the quality of his writing has ensured that his thoughts on philanthropy have been continuously in print for more than a century, and remain widely read and studied to this day….

    :::::::::::::

    By 1919, Carnegie donated $350 million dollars in his lifetime, which in today’s money would be over $5 billion

    ::::::::::::

    https://archive.nytimes.com/www.nytimes.com/books/98/05/17/specials/rockefeller-gifts.html

    ossessor of one of the world’s greatest individual fortunes, John D. Rockefeller was beset with pleas for help. His benefactions were huge, $530,853,632 to various institutions. He had a theory about giving that he once expressed as “to solve the problem of giving money away without making paupers of those who receive it.” Explaining his method of scientific giving, he said:

    “I investigated and worked myself almost to a nervous breakdown in groping my way, without sufficient guide or chart, through the ever-widening field of philanthropic endeavor. It was forced upon me to organize and plan this department upon as distinct lines of progress as our other business affairs.

    “I have always indulged the hope that during my life I should be able to establish efficiency in giving, so that wealth may be of greater use to the present and future generations. If the people can be educated to help themselves, we strike at the root of many of the evils of the world.”

    Created Great Foundations

    Mr. Rockefeller’s benefactions from 1855 to 1934 totaled $530,853,632, of which the greater amount went to the four great foundations he established for the purpose of handling his charities. They were the Rockefeller Institute for Medical Research, the Rockefeller Foundation, the Laura Spelman Rockefeller Memorial, in memory of his wife, and the General Education Board. The University of Chicago was another large beneficiary.

    $530 million in 1934 would be $9.9 billion today.

    ::::::::::::::::::::

    One can oppose striking workers and also demonstrate noblesse oblige.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    To be fair, paternalism can go too far.


    We are born in a Pullman house, fed from the Pullman shops, taught in the Pullman school, catechized in the Pullman Church, and when we die we shall go to the Pullman Hell.

     

    , @Anatoly Karlin

    Explaining his method of scientific giving, he said:

    “I investigated and worked myself almost to a nervous breakdown in groping my way, without sufficient guide or chart, through the ever-widening field of philanthropic endeavor. It was forced upon me to organize and plan this department upon as distinct lines of progress as our other business affairs.

    “I have always indulged the hope that during my life I should be able to establish efficiency in giving, so that wealth may be of greater use to the present and future generations. If the people can be educated to help themselves, we strike at the root of many of the evils of the world.”
     
    Sounds like proto-Effective Altruism.
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  79. @German_reader

    and fund a serious GWAS study on noblesse oblige. I think that its dying out can explain a lot about our condition today.
     
    Did noblesse oblige ever really exist? I'm not sure it was the predominant sentiment among American capitalists in previous eras, e.g. in the Gilded age when they had their hired goons gun down workers on strike.
    Part of the explanation surely must be that Western capitalists were somewhat restrained in what they could do as long as the big bad commie empire existed (though this doesn't mean communism was a good thing).
    I agree with you that it could be interesting if Ron Unz did something about this issue.

    I think it was almost more of an agrarian elite rather than a merchantile elite thing. Its an arrogant thing in some ways, but I was raised with the sense that while I was superior to the proles, I also had to have patience and kindness for them because its not like they know better. Its an obligation to them in way.

    I’ve come to realize there’s some truth to it: after being in corporate environments where everyone is rambling pointlessly and nothing is getting done, taking control of things and providing leadership(and taking on ownership/responsibility) really is a service to them. The sheer desire for a lot of people to avoid responsibility can be amazing, but there’s no reason to have contempt for them: its who they are, and we have to work with them the best that is possible, with as much kindness and understanding as it is possible.

    American capitalists were seen as nouveau riche and crass, and their lack of noblesse oblige(and a host of other things) were traditionally criticized.

    Read More
    • Agree: Thorfinnsson
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  80. iffen says:
    @German_reader

    and fund a serious GWAS study on noblesse oblige. I think that its dying out can explain a lot about our condition today.
     
    Did noblesse oblige ever really exist? I'm not sure it was the predominant sentiment among American capitalists in previous eras, e.g. in the Gilded age when they had their hired goons gun down workers on strike.
    Part of the explanation surely must be that Western capitalists were somewhat restrained in what they could do as long as the big bad commie empire existed (though this doesn't mean communism was a good thing).
    I agree with you that it could be interesting if Ron Unz did something about this issue.

    Did noblesse oblige ever really exist?

    I think that it did, of course it was never predominant. I’m not sure that I would try to find it in Robber Barons, although pure philanthropy can be found there if you look.

    I was thinking more along a strict HBD line and looking for it in actually existing aristocracy. We learned in the previous discussion that the questionable endogamy of various noble lines cannot be dismissed so it might not be feasible.

    Part of the explanation surely must be that Western capitalists were somewhat restrained in what they could do as long as the big bad commie empire existed (though this doesn’t mean communism was a good thing).

    Along these same lines, for the first time I read about the story of Konstantin Rokossovsky. When I read about extraordinary people like that I am completely humbled.

    Read More
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  81. @AP

    Did noblesse oblige ever really exist? I’m not sure it was the predominant sentiment among American capitalists in previous eras, e.g. in the Gilded age when they had their hired goons gun down workers on strike.
     
    https://www.philanthropyroundtable.org/almanac/people/hall-of-fame/detail/andrew-carnegie

    Andrew Carnegie

    Andrew Carnegie may be the most influential philanthropist in American history. The scale of his giving is almost without peer: adjusted for inflation, his donations exceed those of virtually everyone else in the nation’s history. The magnitude of his accomplishments is likewise historic: he built some 2,811 lending libraries around the globe, founded what became one of the world’s great research universities, endowed one of the nation’s most significant grantmakers, and established charitable organizations that are still active nearly a century after his death. And, perhaps uniquely among businessmen, the quality of his writing has ensured that his thoughts on philanthropy have been continuously in print for more than a century, and remain widely read and studied to this day....

    :::::::::::::

    By 1919, Carnegie donated $350 million dollars in his lifetime, which in today's money would be over $5 billion

    ::::::::::::

    https://archive.nytimes.com/www.nytimes.com/books/98/05/17/specials/rockefeller-gifts.html

    ossessor of one of the world's greatest individual fortunes, John D. Rockefeller was beset with pleas for help. His benefactions were huge, $530,853,632 to various institutions. He had a theory about giving that he once expressed as "to solve the problem of giving money away without making paupers of those who receive it." Explaining his method of scientific giving, he said:

    "I investigated and worked myself almost to a nervous breakdown in groping my way, without sufficient guide or chart, through the ever-widening field of philanthropic endeavor. It was forced upon me to organize and plan this department upon as distinct lines of progress as our other business affairs.

    "I have always indulged the hope that during my life I should be able to establish efficiency in giving, so that wealth may be of greater use to the present and future generations. If the people can be educated to help themselves, we strike at the root of many of the evils of the world."

    Created Great Foundations

    Mr. Rockefeller's benefactions from 1855 to 1934 totaled $530,853,632, of which the greater amount went to the four great foundations he established for the purpose of handling his charities. They were the Rockefeller Institute for Medical Research, the Rockefeller Foundation, the Laura Spelman Rockefeller Memorial, in memory of his wife, and the General Education Board. The University of Chicago was another large beneficiary.

    $530 million in 1934 would be $9.9 billion today.

    ::::::::::::::::::::

    One can oppose striking workers and also demonstrate noblesse oblige.

    To be fair, paternalism can go too far.

    We are born in a Pullman house, fed from the Pullman shops, taught in the Pullman school, catechized in the Pullman Church, and when we die we shall go to the Pullman Hell.

    Read More
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  82. @reiner Tor
    70%?

    Even if you manage to save that much, you need further savers to draw your savings down. In other words, you need the next generation. Obviously selfish childless people will have higher savings rates than people raising the next generation. Therefore your system of providing these people with a taxpayer financed court system to enforce their contracts will still be a gibsmedat. Once you understand that, you will lose your interest in the particulars of the pension system, whatever it is. Any system which rewards childlessness is not ideal, in my opinion. The distribution of pensions might as well be completely random.

    I have other plans for dealing with childlessness.

    Read More
    • Replies: @German_reader
    What kind of plans?
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  83. LondonBob says:

    Social security has always been going bankrupt, ever since it was founded people being claiming this. Similarly the dependency ratio has always been deteriorating, improvements in productivity meant that this hasn’t been a problem. The issue will be that the decline in human capital, due to immigration, will mean it will go bankrupt.

    Read More
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  84. @iffen
    It’s a regular gibsmedat.

    No it is not.

    Obviously any pension system should operate in an actuarially sound manner, so no discussion of that aspect is required.


    The American Social Security System is a pay-as-you go fund. The defining feature is the “concealed” forced savings imposed on the participants.

    If peons could be counted on to save for retirement in Thor’s plan, the Social Security System would never have been necessary. In fact, it is a defense against gibsmedat.

    All true Republicans in America oppose the existence of SS as did their party at its creation. You should note two defining features of cucks like Speaker Ryan are support for unlimited immigration, (illegal is the best kind), and support for “reform” of the SS System. Elaborate plans like Thor’s are merely a ruse to eliminate the fund.

    Anti-working class people like Thor believe workers should work until they drop. Also, note that he didn’t make a proposal for reform of the Disability Fund which, in fact, is in deep do-do, including being scammed nationwide, but no one wants to work on a “real” problem like that.

    I do indeed believe people should work until they drop, but I’m not opposed to old-age security.

    Hard to be harsh on an elderly person who no longer has the strength and energy of a young man.

    My plan doesn’t eliminate old age security at all and further allows the elderly to help their grandchildren.

    What’s wrong with that?

    I didn’t make a proposal for a disability fund since I’ve never thought about the problem honestly. I did encounter it once however. When I was in jail for a few days five years ago there was a fellow inmate, an 18 year old black guy, who was on disability yet clearly able-bodied and healthy. I’ll get back to you.

    Read More
    • Replies: @iffen
    an 18 year old black guy, who was on disability yet clearly able-bodied and healthy. I’ll get back to you


    Consider that disability payments are not actually enough to survive on so most work off the books. This is a great depressant on the wage level. Combined with illegals it makes it impossible for working people with few skills to get decent pay.
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  85. @Thorfinnsson
    I have other plans for dealing with childlessness.

    What kind of plans?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Guillaume Tell
    Force childless women with blue eyes and big tits to reproduce with him :)
    , @Thorfinnsson
    Guillaume Tell has the right idea. :)

    No reason for childless people to have the same rights or benefits as in tact families.

    Turn back the clock on women's rights to the 18th century. This means women can't vote, sit on juries, serve as lawyers, be university professors, or even own property.

    Prohibit abortion (for white women) except in case of dysgenics, incest, or miscegenation. Ban birth control as well except in state-controlled brothels.

    Criminalize fornication and adultery. Remove domestic violence laws and prohibit divorce.

    Voting rights only for married men with children, multiplied by the number of children.

    Pervasive state propaganda in favor of families.

    Financial assistance for eugenic families.

    Safe, affordable, family-friendly, walkable neighborhoods for families with children including schools children can walk to and playgrounds for them to play in.

    You get the idea.
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  86. @German_reader
    What kind of plans?

    Force childless women with blue eyes and big tits to reproduce with him :)

    Read More
    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    Honestly I might just knock her up anyway.

    Next week the factory is closed, but she and I will be working while everyone else is off.

    It will be very difficult to avoid the temptation.

    Her buttocks are hypnotic.
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  87. The press in Western European Social Democracies aren’t going to make a big deal out of Putin raising the retirement age since all our countries are doing the same and on this issue the mainstream press collaborates with the government by willingly being very quiet about a potential populist cause.

    Not a single mention of Russian retirement age in any mainstream Finnish newspaper but media russophobia is even more intense than normally. This weekend is the Helsinki Pride Parade so all the front pages of newspapers are dedicated to it. Of course they all run a story with interviews of Russian homosexual “refugees” who talk about the Homocaust happening in the Putlerreich.

    After the weekend the news will switch to the Trump-Putin summit that’s happening in Helsinki in two weeks. Our press has a lot of difficulty deciding the spin on this as securing such an event for Finland is a major coup so it would ordinarily be celebrated but then, it’s PUTLER AND DRUMPF AT THE SAME TIME.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Felix Keverich

    The press in Western European Social Democracies aren’t going to make a big deal out of Putin raising the retirement age since all our countries are doing the same and on this issue the mainstream press collaborates with the government by willingly being very quiet about a potential populist cause.
     
    Your press is smarter than the British press, if that is the case. Every major UK newspaper had an article on the subject, but the readers in comments mostly used them as an opportunity to complain about British pension system. lol
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  88. bjondo says:

    Inflation is minimized. Items used to gauge inflation changed during Clinton years to minimize soc sec. Soc Sec recipients should be receiving double at least.

    From 2012: https://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2012/02/02/the-real-economic-picture/

    Not much on reading graphs or understanding words but I would say US govt lies regarding inflation to steal money from old timers.

    Also forgot, this opinion meant for earlier: People should work as long as they wish but retirement for benefits should be around 50.

    If money can be created for wars and West Bank/Jerusalem thugs, money can be created for US citizens.

    If needed, take from Greenspan, Bernanke, Geithner, Summers, Paulson, Rubin’s bank accounts.

    Read More
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  89. @AP

    Did noblesse oblige ever really exist? I’m not sure it was the predominant sentiment among American capitalists in previous eras, e.g. in the Gilded age when they had their hired goons gun down workers on strike.
     
    https://www.philanthropyroundtable.org/almanac/people/hall-of-fame/detail/andrew-carnegie

    Andrew Carnegie

    Andrew Carnegie may be the most influential philanthropist in American history. The scale of his giving is almost without peer: adjusted for inflation, his donations exceed those of virtually everyone else in the nation’s history. The magnitude of his accomplishments is likewise historic: he built some 2,811 lending libraries around the globe, founded what became one of the world’s great research universities, endowed one of the nation’s most significant grantmakers, and established charitable organizations that are still active nearly a century after his death. And, perhaps uniquely among businessmen, the quality of his writing has ensured that his thoughts on philanthropy have been continuously in print for more than a century, and remain widely read and studied to this day....

    :::::::::::::

    By 1919, Carnegie donated $350 million dollars in his lifetime, which in today's money would be over $5 billion

    ::::::::::::

    https://archive.nytimes.com/www.nytimes.com/books/98/05/17/specials/rockefeller-gifts.html

    ossessor of one of the world's greatest individual fortunes, John D. Rockefeller was beset with pleas for help. His benefactions were huge, $530,853,632 to various institutions. He had a theory about giving that he once expressed as "to solve the problem of giving money away without making paupers of those who receive it." Explaining his method of scientific giving, he said:

    "I investigated and worked myself almost to a nervous breakdown in groping my way, without sufficient guide or chart, through the ever-widening field of philanthropic endeavor. It was forced upon me to organize and plan this department upon as distinct lines of progress as our other business affairs.

    "I have always indulged the hope that during my life I should be able to establish efficiency in giving, so that wealth may be of greater use to the present and future generations. If the people can be educated to help themselves, we strike at the root of many of the evils of the world."

    Created Great Foundations

    Mr. Rockefeller's benefactions from 1855 to 1934 totaled $530,853,632, of which the greater amount went to the four great foundations he established for the purpose of handling his charities. They were the Rockefeller Institute for Medical Research, the Rockefeller Foundation, the Laura Spelman Rockefeller Memorial, in memory of his wife, and the General Education Board. The University of Chicago was another large beneficiary.

    $530 million in 1934 would be $9.9 billion today.

    ::::::::::::::::::::

    One can oppose striking workers and also demonstrate noblesse oblige.

    Explaining his method of scientific giving, he said:

    “I investigated and worked myself almost to a nervous breakdown in groping my way, without sufficient guide or chart, through the ever-widening field of philanthropic endeavor. It was forced upon me to organize and plan this department upon as distinct lines of progress as our other business affairs.

    “I have always indulged the hope that during my life I should be able to establish efficiency in giving, so that wealth may be of greater use to the present and future generations. If the people can be educated to help themselves, we strike at the root of many of the evils of the world.”

    Sounds like proto-Effective Altruism.

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    • Replies: @AP
    I'm not terribly familiar with Effective Altruism but if the idea is that just throwing money at people harms them but investing in ways that help people better themselves is good, then yes.
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  90. @Jaakko Raipala
    The press in Western European Social Democracies aren't going to make a big deal out of Putin raising the retirement age since all our countries are doing the same and on this issue the mainstream press collaborates with the government by willingly being very quiet about a potential populist cause.

    Not a single mention of Russian retirement age in any mainstream Finnish newspaper but media russophobia is even more intense than normally. This weekend is the Helsinki Pride Parade so all the front pages of newspapers are dedicated to it. Of course they all run a story with interviews of Russian homosexual "refugees" who talk about the Homocaust happening in the Putlerreich.

    After the weekend the news will switch to the Trump-Putin summit that's happening in Helsinki in two weeks. Our press has a lot of difficulty deciding the spin on this as securing such an event for Finland is a major coup so it would ordinarily be celebrated but then, it's PUTLER AND DRUMPF AT THE SAME TIME.

    The press in Western European Social Democracies aren’t going to make a big deal out of Putin raising the retirement age since all our countries are doing the same and on this issue the mainstream press collaborates with the government by willingly being very quiet about a potential populist cause.

    Your press is smarter than the British press, if that is the case. Every major UK newspaper had an article on the subject, but the readers in comments mostly used them as an opportunity to complain about British pension system. lol

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    • Replies: @Jaakko Raipala
    Or more controlled. It is amazing to me how much genuine dissent there is in the British press, it would never happen here. The Nordic Social Democratic model has long been a collaborative symbiosis of the government and the press where the press never criticizes governments for anything except deviating from the Nordic model and the government does what it can to ban or marginalize any new press that pops up to compete with the mainstream by publishing dissent from the model.

    Dissident media here is generally run by exiles who operate either from America with its free speech guarantees or some distant country that just doesn't give a shit if a Finnish government demands extradition of a hate speaking thought criminal.

    Of course the authoritarian character of northern European states gets no international press and we always end up on top of "freedom of press" rankings created by Western NGOs because all the Western NGOs are full of leftist ideologues. Personally I've been hoping that Sweden eventually pisses off Russia badly enough by being the main advocate of Ukraine in the EU because exposing the charade would be so easy with the media resources but it seems like Sweden's efforts to make itself the arch-enemy of Russia have gone completely unnoticed in the Kremlin.
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  91. @Felix Keverich
    You sound like you have zero experience with investing. You don't pay into an index fund, you buy shares of an index fund. And you can only pay with USD if it's a US-based fund.

    You sound like you have zero experience with investing.

    That’s about right. When I was writing a thesis, I bought a house on bad advice. Fortunately it didn’t ruin me. After that, I had poorly paid temporary research positions in various countries, where I paid 40% toward taxes and “benefits” and most of the rest toward my landlord’s mortgage. Now I have a decently paid long-term research position and I’d eventually like to move my savings out of вклад at the bank and into something more long term.

    . And you can only pay with USD if it’s a US-based fund.

    I mentioned Vanguard, since they have funds based in US, Canada, and the UK. They require a bank account as well as a tax identification number based in one of those countries. If you can suggest a Russian equivalent into which I can look, I would be grateful.

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  92. @German_reader

    and fund a serious GWAS study on noblesse oblige. I think that its dying out can explain a lot about our condition today.
     
    Did noblesse oblige ever really exist? I'm not sure it was the predominant sentiment among American capitalists in previous eras, e.g. in the Gilded age when they had their hired goons gun down workers on strike.
    Part of the explanation surely must be that Western capitalists were somewhat restrained in what they could do as long as the big bad commie empire existed (though this doesn't mean communism was a good thing).
    I agree with you that it could be interesting if Ron Unz did something about this issue.

    My parents are Swedish Boomers and thus I was raised with an egalitarian ethos. It took me some time to realize that I am better than other people and have an obligation to help them.

    Also I’m not particularly noble–I think that idea stemmed from shitposting against Bliss and his we wuz kangz nonsense. One of my four grandparents was a noble. If you go far enough back in my family tree I am actually a descendant of a Holy Roman Emperor (Otto II). That said most people in my family are talented and accomplished.

    Noblesse oblige certainly existed and was in fact a matter of law. A lord was obligated to protect his subjects and provide them with housing. Failure to do so could result in a loss of title.

    As for Western capitalists it has been a mixed bag. There has long been a tendency to philanthropy (dating back to at least Fugger) and paternalism, but as you say one can easily find many examples of ruthlessness.

    My noblesse oblige is also partly self-interested. I pay high wages to get the best talent in town. I offer good benefits so they never quit. I help and counsel them so they emotionally identify with me.

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  93. @German_reader
    What kind of plans?

    Guillaume Tell has the right idea. :)

    No reason for childless people to have the same rights or benefits as in tact families.

    Turn back the clock on women’s rights to the 18th century. This means women can’t vote, sit on juries, serve as lawyers, be university professors, or even own property.

    Prohibit abortion (for white women) except in case of dysgenics, incest, or miscegenation. Ban birth control as well except in state-controlled brothels.

    Criminalize fornication and adultery. Remove domestic violence laws and prohibit divorce.

    Voting rights only for married men with children, multiplied by the number of children.

    Pervasive state propaganda in favor of families.

    Financial assistance for eugenic families.

    Safe, affordable, family-friendly, walkable neighborhoods for families with children including schools children can walk to and playgrounds for them to play in.

    You get the idea.

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    • Replies: @German_reader
    No offense, but that sounds more like a white sharia fantasy about controlling women than like a realistic proposal.
    It's a difficult issue though, so far no developed society seems to have found a solution (maybe Israel? But then a significant part of Jewish births there comes from the religious nutcases which could eventually cause serious problems).
    , @AP

    This means women can’t vote, sit on juries, serve as lawyers, be university professors, or even own property.
     
    Disagree.

    Remove domestic violence laws and prohibit divorce.
     
    Sorry, this is terrible.
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  94. @The Big Red Scary
    Speaking of retirement and index funds, I have a question.

    Suppose I pay into an index fund, say Vanguard, using currency X (X could be USD, CAD, or GBP, for example), and that index fund invests "globally". Now say currency X undergoes serious devaluation.
    Since the index fund invests "globally", and not just in the home country of currency X, my intuition is that one should be insulated from the devaluation and it shouldn't matter terribly much which X you choose. If there were gains to be had by paying into an index fund in one currency rather than another, then presumably many people would already be doing that (there are no hundred dollar bills lying on the sidewalk).

    Is my intuition basically correct?

    Thorfinsson, if I were one of your peons, and told you I could save 15,000 a year for the next twenty years, what would you suggest?

    What nationality are you? This matters before I can answer your question specifically.

    Since you mentioned Vanguard I assume you’re American?

    Jack Bogle incidentally is a true hero. The man would be worth $10 billion today if he had organized Vanguard as an ordinary corporation. Instead he chose to forego great wealth in favor of helping middle class investors.

    Along with Charles Schwab he did more for ordinary people’s finances than any other American in the past century.

    Sad that these two living legends will soon be gone.

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    • Replies: @The Big Red Scary
    I’m American but am rather unlikely to live again in the US, which is why I asked the question about currencies. My material assets and income are denominated in rubles, and currently my savings are too. Buying dollars is a nuisance, but it might be a good idea to have some financial assets in dollars. In another few years I should be able to put away 25,000 USD a year (at the current exchange rate).
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  95. @Guillaume Tell
    Force childless women with blue eyes and big tits to reproduce with him :)

    Honestly I might just knock her up anyway.

    Next week the factory is closed, but she and I will be working while everyone else is off.

    It will be very difficult to avoid the temptation.

    Her buttocks are hypnotic.

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    • Replies: @Talha
    Adultery is haram, senor, I must remind the seeker-of-the-crown that even the emperor has his limits.

    If you are able to avoid it, I'll be very impressed; my guess is along the 1-to-5 odds of success. If one puts themselves in front of sexual charged train tracks, don't expect to get run the hell over.

    My teachers have taught me to avoid being alone with attractive females AT ALL COSTS. You will lose big time!

    There are of course other ways to guarantee success; make sure not to shower, wear deodorant or bush your teeth. Odds of success will turn 9-to-1 in your favor.

    Peace.
    , @Guillaume Tell
    I think we have similar weaknesses.

    By the way I have been married for almost a quarter of a century, and except for a couple of missteps during the first years of marriage, have not been screwing around. But it is very difficult. I love women, am extremely attracted by them, and have on average quite a bit of success with them as a result of my physique and status. In a way that really is a scourge. By the way I truly love my wife who is very pretty, but that does not prevent my mind from racing furiously whenever in contact with a beauty. I think it’s genes, what can I do? My father was the same and my paternal grandfather too.

    I did not know there was this maxim in “the Game”. But it really is Catholic/Orthodox you know (judge people by their deeds, not their words).

    Which reminds me that you never answered an earlier question of mine, where I was asking you if you could talk a bit about this “Game”. I know nothing about it other that seeing Tom Cruise in American Beauty as some kind of instructor at “Game” seminars of sorts. I would really like to read your insights about it.
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  96. @Thorfinnsson
    Guillaume Tell has the right idea. :)

    No reason for childless people to have the same rights or benefits as in tact families.

    Turn back the clock on women's rights to the 18th century. This means women can't vote, sit on juries, serve as lawyers, be university professors, or even own property.

    Prohibit abortion (for white women) except in case of dysgenics, incest, or miscegenation. Ban birth control as well except in state-controlled brothels.

    Criminalize fornication and adultery. Remove domestic violence laws and prohibit divorce.

    Voting rights only for married men with children, multiplied by the number of children.

    Pervasive state propaganda in favor of families.

    Financial assistance for eugenic families.

    Safe, affordable, family-friendly, walkable neighborhoods for families with children including schools children can walk to and playgrounds for them to play in.

    You get the idea.

    No offense, but that sounds more like a white sharia fantasy about controlling women than like a realistic proposal.
    It’s a difficult issue though, so far no developed society seems to have found a solution (maybe Israel? But then a significant part of Jewish births there comes from the religious nutcases which could eventually cause serious problems).

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    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    Why do you assume anything radical is unrealistic?

    If we seize state power we can do anything.

    And yes, women absolutely must be controlled.

    I don't mean to be rude but do you have much experience with women?

    You yourself admit that modern societies completely fail in this aspect. Do you think this is a coincidence?
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  97. @German_reader
    No offense, but that sounds more like a white sharia fantasy about controlling women than like a realistic proposal.
    It's a difficult issue though, so far no developed society seems to have found a solution (maybe Israel? But then a significant part of Jewish births there comes from the religious nutcases which could eventually cause serious problems).

    Why do you assume anything radical is unrealistic?

    If we seize state power we can do anything.

    And yes, women absolutely must be controlled.

    I don’t mean to be rude but do you have much experience with women?

    You yourself admit that modern societies completely fail in this aspect. Do you think this is a coincidence?

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    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    The big question is how will you capture state power to the extent that you will be able to implement such radical changes.
    , @German_reader

    If we seize state power we can do anything.
     
    That's a very big if. I know you advocate a "Straussian" approach (that is lying about the true extent of one's intentions), but still, even if such an approach could work for a time, it just seems very unlikely to me you'll get mass support for such a programme which would be considerably more radical than going back to 1950s values.
    It seems to me like you think coercion by the state would be some kind of magical solution, but that seems rather dubious to me...have you ever thought about ways for changing the culture, building more traditional communities etc. that don't rely on having access to a massive apparatus of propaganda and coercion?

    I don’t mean to be rude but do you have much experience with women?
     
    Certainly not like you seem to have, but then I've never claimed to be much of a success in this regard.
    iirc you mentioned once that you've been part of the "game" community...how has that influenced your views of those issues?
    , @AP

    And yes, women absolutely must be controlled.
     
    When women are treated as cattle they tend to resemble cattle. As one sees in the Middle East (notice how even Iraqi or Lebanese Christian girls, or ones from de-Islamified families, tend to look nicer than non-Christian ones). Who needs that? Feminism is also, in a lesser and different way, also mysogynistic, by not valuing femininity or by promoting masculinity among women, with consequences in appearance.

    Pre-femimism was fine, no need to react by imitating the tradtional Muslims. Eastern Europe manages to value women while not promoting feminism, that ought to be the model.

    , @iffen
    If we seize state power we can do anything.


    Who is this we, Kemo Sabe? You write stuff like this time and again.

    (I'll be an early signee if you let me be in charge of the guillotine). :)

    , @dfordoom

    Why do you assume anything radical is unrealistic?
     
    In fact you could argue that our situation is so desperate that only radical solutions are realistic.

    White sharia might turn out to be more realistic than the kinds of pathetic half-measures that respectable conservatives are inclined to support. Your proposals seem pretty sound to me.
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  98. OT

    The new American ambassador to Budapest, David B. Cornstein, is a WASP. Just kidding, he’s Jewish.

    Once in Budapest, he immediately visited the Soros university (CEU) whose fate he considered quite important, and then some local Jewish community.

    Apparently he wants to be a caricature of The Eternal One.

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    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    Trump doesn't like Soros.

    See if you can get his attention.

    If you're on Twitter try mentioning this to his son.
    , @iffen
    OT

    Congrats! I saw where the EU solved the immigration problem.
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  99. @Thorfinnsson
    Why do you assume anything radical is unrealistic?

    If we seize state power we can do anything.

    And yes, women absolutely must be controlled.

    I don't mean to be rude but do you have much experience with women?

    You yourself admit that modern societies completely fail in this aspect. Do you think this is a coincidence?

    The big question is how will you capture state power to the extent that you will be able to implement such radical changes.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    Yes, that is the big question.

    I'm working on it.

    So should you.

    And the rest of us in Karlin's commentariat.

    Studying the Bolsheviks and the Nazi party is a good start.

    As is making money, though eventually I'll need to move beyond that.

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  100. @reiner Tor
    OT

    The new American ambassador to Budapest, David B. Cornstein, is a WASP. Just kidding, he’s Jewish.

    Once in Budapest, he immediately visited the Soros university (CEU) whose fate he considered quite important, and then some local Jewish community.

    Apparently he wants to be a caricature of The Eternal One.

    Trump doesn’t like Soros.

    See if you can get his attention.

    If you’re on Twitter try mentioning this to his son.

    Read More
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  101. @Thorfinnsson
    Why do you assume anything radical is unrealistic?

    If we seize state power we can do anything.

    And yes, women absolutely must be controlled.

    I don't mean to be rude but do you have much experience with women?

    You yourself admit that modern societies completely fail in this aspect. Do you think this is a coincidence?

    If we seize state power we can do anything.

    That’s a very big if. I know you advocate a “Straussian” approach (that is lying about the true extent of one’s intentions), but still, even if such an approach could work for a time, it just seems very unlikely to me you’ll get mass support for such a programme which would be considerably more radical than going back to 1950s values.
    It seems to me like you think coercion by the state would be some kind of magical solution, but that seems rather dubious to me…have you ever thought about ways for changing the culture, building more traditional communities etc. that don’t rely on having access to a massive apparatus of propaganda and coercion?

    I don’t mean to be rude but do you have much experience with women?

    Certainly not like you seem to have, but then I’ve never claimed to be much of a success in this regard.
    iirc you mentioned once that you’ve been part of the “game” community…how has that influenced your views of those issues?

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    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    Mass support for a program can be gained through propaganda. You're German. Ever heard of the Nazi party? And propaganda in line with traditional instincts is much more likely to be effective than propaganda in line with destructive nonsense.

    We are already changing the culture without access to the state and the means of propaganda thanks to the internet. And this is now influencing politics. Would we ever have elected Donald Trump without the internet and a massive army of shitposters?

    That said I have thought about founding communities under specific laws to be tradition and family oriented. Orania in South Africa is quite interesting.

    The Game community has strongly influenced my views on women, but there was something there before I ever discovered it. As a teenager it was clear to me that women were wrong all the time on all sorts of matters and should not be permitted to vote. This was before I ever discovered "Game" and I was in fact very beta with women in my personal relationships with them.

    And really, the views of the Game community are about 90% correct. Women love nothing more than to be dominated by a strong man. When not dominated by a strong man, they relentlessly break down the men around them. Look at all the single women who want rapefugees to invade Europe.

    I'm not a player or a lothario either, this was something I looked into out of intellectual interest. Though it did help me with my personal relationships with women and upgraded both quality and quantity.

    Read the old posts of Roissy/Heartiste (probably the world's best writer today) and Roosh.

    Their modern posts are mostly about politics and aren't bad either.

    , @iffen
    I know you advocate a “Straussian” approach (that is lying about the true extent of one’s intentions)


    Isn't being crytic or esoteric different from lying?
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  102. @reiner Tor
    The big question is how will you capture state power to the extent that you will be able to implement such radical changes.

    Yes, that is the big question.

    I’m working on it.

    So should you.

    And the rest of us in Karlin’s commentariat.

    Studying the Bolsheviks and the Nazi party is a good start.

    As is making money, though eventually I’ll need to move beyond that.

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  103. @German_reader

    If we seize state power we can do anything.
     
    That's a very big if. I know you advocate a "Straussian" approach (that is lying about the true extent of one's intentions), but still, even if such an approach could work for a time, it just seems very unlikely to me you'll get mass support for such a programme which would be considerably more radical than going back to 1950s values.
    It seems to me like you think coercion by the state would be some kind of magical solution, but that seems rather dubious to me...have you ever thought about ways for changing the culture, building more traditional communities etc. that don't rely on having access to a massive apparatus of propaganda and coercion?

    I don’t mean to be rude but do you have much experience with women?
     
    Certainly not like you seem to have, but then I've never claimed to be much of a success in this regard.
    iirc you mentioned once that you've been part of the "game" community...how has that influenced your views of those issues?

    Mass support for a program can be gained through propaganda. You’re German. Ever heard of the Nazi party? And propaganda in line with traditional instincts is much more likely to be effective than propaganda in line with destructive nonsense.

    We are already changing the culture without access to the state and the means of propaganda thanks to the internet. And this is now influencing politics. Would we ever have elected Donald Trump without the internet and a massive army of shitposters?

    That said I have thought about founding communities under specific laws to be tradition and family oriented. Orania in South Africa is quite interesting.

    The Game community has strongly influenced my views on women, but there was something there before I ever discovered it. As a teenager it was clear to me that women were wrong all the time on all sorts of matters and should not be permitted to vote. This was before I ever discovered “Game” and I was in fact very beta with women in my personal relationships with them.

    And really, the views of the Game community are about 90% correct. Women love nothing more than to be dominated by a strong man. When not dominated by a strong man, they relentlessly break down the men around them. Look at all the single women who want rapefugees to invade Europe.

    I’m not a player or a lothario either, this was something I looked into out of intellectual interest. Though it did help me with my personal relationships with women and upgraded both quality and quantity.

    Read the old posts of Roissy/Heartiste (probably the world’s best writer today) and Roosh.

    Their modern posts are mostly about politics and aren’t bad either.

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    • Replies: @German_reader

    And this is now influencing politics. Would we ever have elected Donald Trump without the internet and a massive army of shitposters?
     
    Internet is overrated imo, all that net activism is worthless (and may even be harmful) if it isn't connected to building up networks and communities away from the net.
    As for Trump...even if one assumes he's on "our" side ("our" meaning mostly white nationalist-populist Americans in this case), the big weakness is that there really isn't a coherent movement around him. A Twitter-based personality cult just isn't enough.
    If there's ever occasion to do so, I would be interested in reading more about your experiences with the game community and how you used their theories.
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  104. @Felix Keverich

    The press in Western European Social Democracies aren’t going to make a big deal out of Putin raising the retirement age since all our countries are doing the same and on this issue the mainstream press collaborates with the government by willingly being very quiet about a potential populist cause.
     
    Your press is smarter than the British press, if that is the case. Every major UK newspaper had an article on the subject, but the readers in comments mostly used them as an opportunity to complain about British pension system. lol

    Or more controlled. It is amazing to me how much genuine dissent there is in the British press, it would never happen here. The Nordic Social Democratic model has long been a collaborative symbiosis of the government and the press where the press never criticizes governments for anything except deviating from the Nordic model and the government does what it can to ban or marginalize any new press that pops up to compete with the mainstream by publishing dissent from the model.

    Dissident media here is generally run by exiles who operate either from America with its free speech guarantees or some distant country that just doesn’t give a shit if a Finnish government demands extradition of a hate speaking thought criminal.

    Of course the authoritarian character of northern European states gets no international press and we always end up on top of “freedom of press” rankings created by Western NGOs because all the Western NGOs are full of leftist ideologues. Personally I’ve been hoping that Sweden eventually pisses off Russia badly enough by being the main advocate of Ukraine in the EU because exposing the charade would be so easy with the media resources but it seems like Sweden’s efforts to make itself the arch-enemy of Russia have gone completely unnoticed in the Kremlin.

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    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    God Bless America. :D
    , @AnonFromTN

    it seems like Sweden’s efforts to make itself the arch-enemy of Russia have gone completely unnoticed in the Kremlin
     
    Well, elephants often ignore gnats. What else is new?
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  105. @Jaakko Raipala
    Or more controlled. It is amazing to me how much genuine dissent there is in the British press, it would never happen here. The Nordic Social Democratic model has long been a collaborative symbiosis of the government and the press where the press never criticizes governments for anything except deviating from the Nordic model and the government does what it can to ban or marginalize any new press that pops up to compete with the mainstream by publishing dissent from the model.

    Dissident media here is generally run by exiles who operate either from America with its free speech guarantees or some distant country that just doesn't give a shit if a Finnish government demands extradition of a hate speaking thought criminal.

    Of course the authoritarian character of northern European states gets no international press and we always end up on top of "freedom of press" rankings created by Western NGOs because all the Western NGOs are full of leftist ideologues. Personally I've been hoping that Sweden eventually pisses off Russia badly enough by being the main advocate of Ukraine in the EU because exposing the charade would be so easy with the media resources but it seems like Sweden's efforts to make itself the arch-enemy of Russia have gone completely unnoticed in the Kremlin.

    God Bless America. :D

    Read More
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  106. @Thorfinnsson
    Yes, and since I grew up in a capitalist country they also taught me about compound interest.

    Only $46,377 in annual contributions are required for someone who starts work at age 22 to gain a portfolio value of $2m by the age of 40.

    This is using a total return rate of 8.6%, which is the long-term CAGR of the S&P 500 dating back to 1871.

    If you sincerely believe that saving $46,377 per person per year out of ~$56,000 per household per year is doable, there is no point arguing with you. I can only advise you to get some math training, or visit your shrink, whichever seems easier.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    When you're in a hole, stop digging.

    My two million example was hypothetical and not intended to be typical. Though if you want to go down this road I personally salt away over $100k every year.

    No, the average worker cannot save $46,377 per year. Duh.

    Why don't you just admit you don't invest and don't understand this topic?

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  107. @Thorfinnsson
    Mass support for a program can be gained through propaganda. You're German. Ever heard of the Nazi party? And propaganda in line with traditional instincts is much more likely to be effective than propaganda in line with destructive nonsense.

    We are already changing the culture without access to the state and the means of propaganda thanks to the internet. And this is now influencing politics. Would we ever have elected Donald Trump without the internet and a massive army of shitposters?

    That said I have thought about founding communities under specific laws to be tradition and family oriented. Orania in South Africa is quite interesting.

    The Game community has strongly influenced my views on women, but there was something there before I ever discovered it. As a teenager it was clear to me that women were wrong all the time on all sorts of matters and should not be permitted to vote. This was before I ever discovered "Game" and I was in fact very beta with women in my personal relationships with them.

    And really, the views of the Game community are about 90% correct. Women love nothing more than to be dominated by a strong man. When not dominated by a strong man, they relentlessly break down the men around them. Look at all the single women who want rapefugees to invade Europe.

    I'm not a player or a lothario either, this was something I looked into out of intellectual interest. Though it did help me with my personal relationships with women and upgraded both quality and quantity.

    Read the old posts of Roissy/Heartiste (probably the world's best writer today) and Roosh.

    Their modern posts are mostly about politics and aren't bad either.

    And this is now influencing politics. Would we ever have elected Donald Trump without the internet and a massive army of shitposters?

    Internet is overrated imo, all that net activism is worthless (and may even be harmful) if it isn’t connected to building up networks and communities away from the net.
    As for Trump…even if one assumes he’s on “our” side (“our” meaning mostly white nationalist-populist Americans in this case), the big weakness is that there really isn’t a coherent movement around him. A Twitter-based personality cult just isn’t enough.
    If there’s ever occasion to do so, I would be interested in reading more about your experiences with the game community and how you used their theories.

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    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    I agree with all of this.

    Like I've said before, Trump is only the beginning.

    As for "Game", I suppose it comes down to two major points.

    One is understanding that men and women are fundamentally different and thus have different desires, emotions, and ways of thinking.

    Two is realizing that if you want women, you must work to become an attractive man. Not just physically, but also mentally. Everyone knows what an attractive man is physically, but only the Game community tells you what an attractive man is mentally.

    For me it was a fairly easy transition as I am naturally a 7 on looks (8 or 9 with lifting and good style) and have some kind of dictatorial predisposition which results in people following me and forming cults based on me. The latter happened recently on Discord with teenage girls which forced me to delete my account owing to American laws about age of consent (I did nothing illegal but it was a bad look).

    I don't recommend spending an inordinate amount of time on attracting women as it's better to acquire money and power (and then you will get women anyway), but it's good to familiarize yourself with the theory. It also protects you from getting exploited by attractive women when you do have money and power.

    If you want specifics I suppose I can give them.

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  108. @Jaakko Raipala
    Or more controlled. It is amazing to me how much genuine dissent there is in the British press, it would never happen here. The Nordic Social Democratic model has long been a collaborative symbiosis of the government and the press where the press never criticizes governments for anything except deviating from the Nordic model and the government does what it can to ban or marginalize any new press that pops up to compete with the mainstream by publishing dissent from the model.

    Dissident media here is generally run by exiles who operate either from America with its free speech guarantees or some distant country that just doesn't give a shit if a Finnish government demands extradition of a hate speaking thought criminal.

    Of course the authoritarian character of northern European states gets no international press and we always end up on top of "freedom of press" rankings created by Western NGOs because all the Western NGOs are full of leftist ideologues. Personally I've been hoping that Sweden eventually pisses off Russia badly enough by being the main advocate of Ukraine in the EU because exposing the charade would be so easy with the media resources but it seems like Sweden's efforts to make itself the arch-enemy of Russia have gone completely unnoticed in the Kremlin.

    it seems like Sweden’s efforts to make itself the arch-enemy of Russia have gone completely unnoticed in the Kremlin

    Well, elephants often ignore gnats. What else is new?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Jaakko Raipala
    Sweden is not a gnat, though, it is a giant of diplomacy that has made itself one of the biggest influences on the European Union's Russia policy. It is extremely foolish for Russia to ignore it. As it happens, in a parliamentary regime (or a sort-of-parliamentary regime like the EU), a dedicated small group pushing an agenda can have a huge influence and that's what Sweden has been doing.

    The EU policy in Ukraine (and a few other neighbors of Russia) that led to the present disaster of relations is basically this program:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Partnership

    The project was initiated by Poland and a subsequent proposal was prepared in co-operation with Sweden.[1] It was presented by the foreign ministers of Poland and Sweden at the EU's General Affairs and External Relations Council in Brussels on 26 May 2008.[2]
     
    Inviting Sweden and Poland to decide your policy towards Russia is a bit like inviting North Korea and Cuba to write your policy towards America.

    Sweden has been playing this game where they fly under the radar as a "humanitarian superpower" and politicians in distant countries like France, Spain, Italy etc know nothing about Sweden's centuries of grievances with Russia. Most of Europe is immediately skeptical if just Poland or the Baltic states push an agenda regarding Russia but when the anti-Russian coalition gets Sweden to be its front the more distant countries don't realize what's going on - "Sweden, that's the goofy liberal do-gooder state, it's not like they have some national grievance agenda, right?"
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  109. bjondo says:

    reply to #52 still in moderation?

    Read More
    • Replies: @bjondo
    at #88
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  110. @AnonFromTN
    If you sincerely believe that saving $46,377 per person per year out of ~$56,000 per household per year is doable, there is no point arguing with you. I can only advise you to get some math training, or visit your shrink, whichever seems easier.

    When you’re in a hole, stop digging.

    My two million example was hypothetical and not intended to be typical. Though if you want to go down this road I personally salt away over $100k every year.

    No, the average worker cannot save $46,377 per year. Duh.

    Why don’t you just admit you don’t invest and don’t understand this topic?

    Read More
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  111. @German_reader

    And this is now influencing politics. Would we ever have elected Donald Trump without the internet and a massive army of shitposters?
     
    Internet is overrated imo, all that net activism is worthless (and may even be harmful) if it isn't connected to building up networks and communities away from the net.
    As for Trump...even if one assumes he's on "our" side ("our" meaning mostly white nationalist-populist Americans in this case), the big weakness is that there really isn't a coherent movement around him. A Twitter-based personality cult just isn't enough.
    If there's ever occasion to do so, I would be interested in reading more about your experiences with the game community and how you used their theories.

    I agree with all of this.

    Like I’ve said before, Trump is only the beginning.

    As for “Game”, I suppose it comes down to two major points.

    One is understanding that men and women are fundamentally different and thus have different desires, emotions, and ways of thinking.

    Two is realizing that if you want women, you must work to become an attractive man. Not just physically, but also mentally. Everyone knows what an attractive man is physically, but only the Game community tells you what an attractive man is mentally.

    For me it was a fairly easy transition as I am naturally a 7 on looks (8 or 9 with lifting and good style) and have some kind of dictatorial predisposition which results in people following me and forming cults based on me. The latter happened recently on Discord with teenage girls which forced me to delete my account owing to American laws about age of consent (I did nothing illegal but it was a bad look).

    I don’t recommend spending an inordinate amount of time on attracting women as it’s better to acquire money and power (and then you will get women anyway), but it’s good to familiarize yourself with the theory. It also protects you from getting exploited by attractive women when you do have money and power.

    If you want specifics I suppose I can give them.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    The greatest single lesson of the Game community for me is:

    Never pay attention to what people say, only what they do.
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  112. AP says:
    @Thorfinnsson
    Guillaume Tell has the right idea. :)

    No reason for childless people to have the same rights or benefits as in tact families.

    Turn back the clock on women's rights to the 18th century. This means women can't vote, sit on juries, serve as lawyers, be university professors, or even own property.

    Prohibit abortion (for white women) except in case of dysgenics, incest, or miscegenation. Ban birth control as well except in state-controlled brothels.

    Criminalize fornication and adultery. Remove domestic violence laws and prohibit divorce.

    Voting rights only for married men with children, multiplied by the number of children.

    Pervasive state propaganda in favor of families.

    Financial assistance for eugenic families.

    Safe, affordable, family-friendly, walkable neighborhoods for families with children including schools children can walk to and playgrounds for them to play in.

    You get the idea.

    This means women can’t vote, sit on juries, serve as lawyers, be university professors, or even own property.

    Disagree.

    Remove domestic violence laws and prohibit divorce.

    Sorry, this is terrible.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    How does it feel to be wrong?

    Elimination of domestic violence laws doesn't eliminate laws on assault and battery.

    What it does do is eliminate the ability of women to use the police as a weapon.

    Pro-tip: when in an argument with a woman, take her phone away.

    And for the record my parents divorced. When I was 11 years old. It was by far the worst thing that ever happened in my life. It has colored my views on everything. I'm still not over it despite the fact it has been 22 years now and I'm a successful adult.

    , @Talha
    I will have to agree with AP's assessment - some of these proposals are far more than even allowed by traditional Shariah-regulated societies; they will come to us in throngs as a traditional-but-more-accommodating alternative.

    The seeker-to-the-crown should reassess his proposals.

    Peace.
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  113. AP says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    Explaining his method of scientific giving, he said:

    “I investigated and worked myself almost to a nervous breakdown in groping my way, without sufficient guide or chart, through the ever-widening field of philanthropic endeavor. It was forced upon me to organize and plan this department upon as distinct lines of progress as our other business affairs.

    “I have always indulged the hope that during my life I should be able to establish efficiency in giving, so that wealth may be of greater use to the present and future generations. If the people can be educated to help themselves, we strike at the root of many of the evils of the world.”
     
    Sounds like proto-Effective Altruism.

    I’m not terribly familiar with Effective Altruism but if the idea is that just throwing money at people harms them but investing in ways that help people better themselves is good, then yes.

    Read More
    • Replies: @DFH
    My impression is that the idea was to throw medical care at Africans
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  114. @AP

    This means women can’t vote, sit on juries, serve as lawyers, be university professors, or even own property.
     
    Disagree.

    Remove domestic violence laws and prohibit divorce.
     
    Sorry, this is terrible.

    How does it feel to be wrong?

    Elimination of domestic violence laws doesn’t eliminate laws on assault and battery.

    What it does do is eliminate the ability of women to use the police as a weapon.

    Pro-tip: when in an argument with a woman, take her phone away.

    And for the record my parents divorced. When I was 11 years old. It was by far the worst thing that ever happened in my life. It has colored my views on everything. I’m still not over it despite the fact it has been 22 years now and I’m a successful adult.

    Read More
    • Replies: @AP

    Elimination of domestic violence laws doesn’t eliminate laws on assault and battery.
     
    Okay. Point taken. That seems fine.

    My problem was the idea that a woman should be forced to stay married to a man who abuses them. This does not mean that divorces ought to be easy or encouraged for frivolous reasons, particularly when children are involved.
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  115. @AnonFromTN

    it seems like Sweden’s efforts to make itself the arch-enemy of Russia have gone completely unnoticed in the Kremlin
     
    Well, elephants often ignore gnats. What else is new?

    Sweden is not a gnat, though, it is a giant of diplomacy that has made itself one of the biggest influences on the European Union’s Russia policy. It is extremely foolish for Russia to ignore it. As it happens, in a parliamentary regime (or a sort-of-parliamentary regime like the EU), a dedicated small group pushing an agenda can have a huge influence and that’s what Sweden has been doing.

    The EU policy in Ukraine (and a few other neighbors of Russia) that led to the present disaster of relations is basically this program:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Partnership

    The project was initiated by Poland and a subsequent proposal was prepared in co-operation with Sweden.[1] It was presented by the foreign ministers of Poland and Sweden at the EU’s General Affairs and External Relations Council in Brussels on 26 May 2008.[2]

    Inviting Sweden and Poland to decide your policy towards Russia is a bit like inviting North Korea and Cuba to write your policy towards America.

    Sweden has been playing this game where they fly under the radar as a “humanitarian superpower” and politicians in distant countries like France, Spain, Italy etc know nothing about Sweden’s centuries of grievances with Russia. Most of Europe is immediately skeptical if just Poland or the Baltic states push an agenda regarding Russia but when the anti-Russian coalition gets Sweden to be its front the more distant countries don’t realize what’s going on – “Sweden, that’s the goofy liberal do-gooder state, it’s not like they have some national grievance agenda, right?”

    Read More
    • Replies: @Johann Ricke

    Inviting Sweden and Poland to decide your policy towards Russia is a bit like inviting North Korea and Cuba to write your policy towards America.
     
    Except no one thinks the US will annex either North Korea or Cuba. With Russia, the question isn't whether - it's when it will make its move. Note that Russia's most recent annexation, of Crimea, was just a few years ago, and its proxy forces remain in occupation of eastern Ukraine.
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  116. Talha says:
    @Thorfinnsson
    Honestly I might just knock her up anyway.

    Next week the factory is closed, but she and I will be working while everyone else is off.

    It will be very difficult to avoid the temptation.

    Her buttocks are hypnotic.

    Adultery is haram, senor, I must remind the seeker-of-the-crown that even the emperor has his limits.

    If you are able to avoid it, I’ll be very impressed; my guess is along the 1-to-5 odds of success. If one puts themselves in front of sexual charged train tracks, don’t expect to get run the hell over.

    My teachers have taught me to avoid being alone with attractive females AT ALL COSTS. You will lose big time!

    There are of course other ways to guarantee success; make sure not to shower, wear deodorant or bush your teeth. Odds of success will turn 9-to-1 in your favor.

    Peace.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    I am comfortable with adultery. I was once engaged to a married woman and she got divorced on my behalf. I will never forget the first time I entered her. Still love her but had to move on.

    What I'm not comfortable with is child support and/or death threats.

    And yes, to be clear, I think adultery should be illegal.

    But I take advantage of what I can.
    , @Daniel Chieh

    My teachers have taught me to avoid being alone with attractive females AT ALL COSTS. You will lose big time!

     

    Stunning alpha right here.
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  117. DFH says:
    @AP
    I'm not terribly familiar with Effective Altruism but if the idea is that just throwing money at people harms them but investing in ways that help people better themselves is good, then yes.

    My impression is that the idea was to throw medical care at Africans

    Read More
    • Replies: @iffen
    My impression is that the idea was to throw medical care at Africans


    It's rather difficult to make a case against simple vacination programs.
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  118. AP says:
    @Thorfinnsson
    Why do you assume anything radical is unrealistic?

    If we seize state power we can do anything.

    And yes, women absolutely must be controlled.

    I don't mean to be rude but do you have much experience with women?

    You yourself admit that modern societies completely fail in this aspect. Do you think this is a coincidence?

    And yes, women absolutely must be controlled.

    When women are treated as cattle they tend to resemble cattle. As one sees in the Middle East (notice how even Iraqi or Lebanese Christian girls, or ones from de-Islamified families, tend to look nicer than non-Christian ones). Who needs that? Feminism is also, in a lesser and different way, also mysogynistic, by not valuing femininity or by promoting masculinity among women, with consequences in appearance.

    Pre-femimism was fine, no need to react by imitating the tradtional Muslims. Eastern Europe manages to value women while not promoting feminism, that ought to be the model.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    Are you impressed with women in modern societies? Have you seen how fat they are?

    How many women have you been with?

    Anyone with a number under 20 is incompetent to discuss this.
    , @Talha

    Pre-femimism was fine, no need to react by imitating the tradtional Muslims.
     
    History lesson fail:
    https://youtu.be/jfN60ZlZhpY?t=1m45s

    He's talking about imitating traditional Europeans - has nothing to do with us, chief. I can easly find you photos of women from parts of Sweden circa late 1800s that dress more modestly than hijab-wearing Muslim women today.

    Peace.
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  119. @Talha
    Adultery is haram, senor, I must remind the seeker-of-the-crown that even the emperor has his limits.

    If you are able to avoid it, I'll be very impressed; my guess is along the 1-to-5 odds of success. If one puts themselves in front of sexual charged train tracks, don't expect to get run the hell over.

    My teachers have taught me to avoid being alone with attractive females AT ALL COSTS. You will lose big time!

    There are of course other ways to guarantee success; make sure not to shower, wear deodorant or bush your teeth. Odds of success will turn 9-to-1 in your favor.

    Peace.

    I am comfortable with adultery. I was once engaged to a married woman and she got divorced on my behalf. I will never forget the first time I entered her. Still love her but had to move on.

    What I’m not comfortable with is child support and/or death threats.

    And yes, to be clear, I think adultery should be illegal.

    But I take advantage of what I can.

    Read More
    • Replies: @German_reader

    I am comfortable with adultery.
     
    That seems contradictory with your belief it should be prohibited...if you recognize it as immoral and harmful for the cohesion of society (as adultery clearly is), why do it?

    I was once engaged to a married woman
     
    That sounds pretty bad, you can be glad her husband didn't kill you as he would have been justified in doing.
    Lust not after her beauty in thine heart; neither let her take thee with her eyelids.
    26For by means of a whorish woman a man is brought to a piece of bread: and the adulteress will hunt for the precious life.

    Sound advice imo.
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  120. AP says:
    @Thorfinnsson
    How does it feel to be wrong?

    Elimination of domestic violence laws doesn't eliminate laws on assault and battery.

    What it does do is eliminate the ability of women to use the police as a weapon.

    Pro-tip: when in an argument with a woman, take her phone away.

    And for the record my parents divorced. When I was 11 years old. It was by far the worst thing that ever happened in my life. It has colored my views on everything. I'm still not over it despite the fact it has been 22 years now and I'm a successful adult.

    Elimination of domestic violence laws doesn’t eliminate laws on assault and battery.

    Okay. Point taken. That seems fine.

    My problem was the idea that a woman should be forced to stay married to a man who abuses them. This does not mean that divorces ought to be easy or encouraged for frivolous reasons, particularly when children are involved.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    Based on my own background I am not fond of divorce.

    But perhaps there could be a way.
    , @Daniel Chieh
    The best defense against abusive men is angry brothers and protective fathers.
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  121. @Thorfinnsson
    What nationality are you? This matters before I can answer your question specifically.

    Since you mentioned Vanguard I assume you're American?

    Jack Bogle incidentally is a true hero. The man would be worth $10 billion today if he had organized Vanguard as an ordinary corporation. Instead he chose to forego great wealth in favor of helping middle class investors.

    Along with Charles Schwab he did more for ordinary people's finances than any other American in the past century.

    Sad that these two living legends will soon be gone.

    I’m American but am rather unlikely to live again in the US, which is why I asked the question about currencies. My material assets and income are denominated in rubles, and currently my savings are too. Buying dollars is a nuisance, but it might be a good idea to have some financial assets in dollars. In another few years I should be able to put away 25,000 USD a year (at the current exchange rate).

    Read More
    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    The first thing you need to do is maximize your tax advantages. It's free money.

    So that means maximizing 401(k), IRA, and HSA.

    Beyond that use a target date fund or robo-advisor so you don't need to think about it.
    , @anonymous coward

    I’m American but am rather unlikely to live again in the US, which is why I asked the question about currencies.
     
    American investment advise will be useless to you then.

    I suggest you buy into some ПИФ:

    https://www.alfacapital.ru/individual/pifs/opifo_akbond/ -- Eurobonds if you want to hedge against currency risks.

    https://www.alfacapital.ru/individual/pifs/opif_akop/ -- Russian bonds if you just want a low-risk way to make money with compound interest.

    Note that the vast majority of Russians will invest into real estate instead. (Requires that you have kids and will only pay off in 30-plus years.)
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  122. @AP

    And yes, women absolutely must be controlled.
     
    When women are treated as cattle they tend to resemble cattle. As one sees in the Middle East (notice how even Iraqi or Lebanese Christian girls, or ones from de-Islamified families, tend to look nicer than non-Christian ones). Who needs that? Feminism is also, in a lesser and different way, also mysogynistic, by not valuing femininity or by promoting masculinity among women, with consequences in appearance.

    Pre-femimism was fine, no need to react by imitating the tradtional Muslims. Eastern Europe manages to value women while not promoting feminism, that ought to be the model.

    Are you impressed with women in modern societies? Have you seen how fat they are?

    How many women have you been with?

    Anyone with a number under 20 is incompetent to discuss this.

    Read More
    • Agree: Daniel Chieh
    • Replies: @AP

    Are you impressed with women in modern societies? Have you seen how fat they are?
     
    Yes, I mentioned that feminism also had a deleterious effect. The most attractive women are in Eastern Europe, which has remained relatively free of feminism but where women are not treated as cattle. The West was probably like this prior to the late 1960s.

    How many women have you been with?
    Anyone with a number under 20 is incompetent to discuss this.
     
    This isn't evidence of expertise.

    Despite being an intelligent, interesting, physically attractive, honorable (as evidenced by your treatment of those working for you) and wealthy man, you are in your thirties and have failed to establish a solid productive relationship with a woman. You have also not been fortunate to have had experienced a good relationship between your parents. So, I doubt your expertise in this particular area.
    , @anonymous coward

    How many women have you been with?

    Anyone with a number under 20 is incompetent to discuss this.
     
    That's like saying that some feminist understands male psychology because she's had 300 negro dicks during one-night-stands.

    Like I said: Game is just the male version of feminism. If you want to die alone and be cremated by your state's social services, then do everything Game tells you to.
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  123. @Talha
    Adultery is haram, senor, I must remind the seeker-of-the-crown that even the emperor has his limits.

    If you are able to avoid it, I'll be very impressed; my guess is along the 1-to-5 odds of success. If one puts themselves in front of sexual charged train tracks, don't expect to get run the hell over.

    My teachers have taught me to avoid being alone with attractive females AT ALL COSTS. You will lose big time!

    There are of course other ways to guarantee success; make sure not to shower, wear deodorant or bush your teeth. Odds of success will turn 9-to-1 in your favor.

    Peace.

    My teachers have taught me to avoid being alone with attractive females AT ALL COSTS. You will lose big time!

    Stunning alpha right here.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    I'm not sure what this means, but I can tell you that if I was in a similar situation and an attractive woman was willing (and unfortunately for me, I find it very easy to start conversing to women - it comes naturally and I have to suppress it - it's even worse for my brother) - all that Sufi training would go out the window.

    The key of Sufi-training is to come to a very realistic understanding of your own soul, its proclivities, its weaknesses. The key is to realize you aren't the hero of some script that your ego keeps writing and revising for yourself. Thus, in my situation - knowing what I know about myself; I would never, EVER put myself in that situation.

    It's like an obese guy trying not to eat the box of cookies in his pantry; no way he will win. He should have fought the fight way early on by leaving them on the shelf in the grocery store.

    Peace.
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  124. Talha says:
    @AP

    This means women can’t vote, sit on juries, serve as lawyers, be university professors, or even own property.
     
    Disagree.

    Remove domestic violence laws and prohibit divorce.
     
    Sorry, this is terrible.

    I will have to agree with AP’s assessment – some of these proposals are far more than even allowed by traditional Shariah-regulated societies; they will come to us in throngs as a traditional-but-more-accommodating alternative.

    The seeker-to-the-crown should reassess his proposals.

    Peace.

    Read More
    • Replies: @AaronB
    It is not unusual for the first step back to health to be an overreaction - this is why I think the alt right will be a transitional phenomenon, and although the younger generation of whites is showing signs of health, they still have far to travel. Which is perfectly understandable - and they are still much better than the older commenters here.

    Game too was an understandable overreaction against femininism, but its also a transitional adolescent phenomenon. Game can be useful to break the hold of the poz on a young mans mind, but to remain stuck in it is to remain an adolescent.

    Game in a backhanded fashion still tries to impress women and is still obsessed with women's opinions - the true "frame" is to not care about women's opinion, but be guided by a moral code, regardless of how they react.

    But the adolescent always revels by going to the opposite extreme - and it's a necessary transitional stage. We should not begrudge them that - just gently guide them to see beyond it.

    What a lot of young men don't realize also is that women powerfully respond to love - showing real love and affection is like catnip to them. Of course, assuming you're attractive in general.
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  125. @The Big Red Scary
    I’m American but am rather unlikely to live again in the US, which is why I asked the question about currencies. My material assets and income are denominated in rubles, and currently my savings are too. Buying dollars is a nuisance, but it might be a good idea to have some financial assets in dollars. In another few years I should be able to put away 25,000 USD a year (at the current exchange rate).

    The first thing you need to do is maximize your tax advantages. It’s free money.

    So that means maximizing 401(k), IRA, and HSA.

    Beyond that use a target date fund or robo-advisor so you don’t need to think about it.

    Read More
    • Replies: @JL
    He pays a flat income tax at a rate of 13%. As an American living abroad, unless he makes over $100,000 per year, he's not liable for tax there. So 401(k), IRA, etc. are not applicable. Furthermore, investing as an American abroad is extremely complicated thanks to the convoluted tax code designed to catch evaders, while completely disregarding the interests of ex-pats.

    My advice to the Big Red Scary for maximizing tax advantages would be to conclude a брачный договор with his Russian wife and put all his assets in her name. If the investments are in his name, he could be taxed to the full extent in the US while simultaneously annulling his below-$100,000/year exemption.
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  126. @AP

    Elimination of domestic violence laws doesn’t eliminate laws on assault and battery.
     
    Okay. Point taken. That seems fine.

    My problem was the idea that a woman should be forced to stay married to a man who abuses them. This does not mean that divorces ought to be easy or encouraged for frivolous reasons, particularly when children are involved.

    Based on my own background I am not fond of divorce.

    But perhaps there could be a way.

    Read More
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  127. @Thorfinnsson
    I agree with all of this.

    Like I've said before, Trump is only the beginning.

    As for "Game", I suppose it comes down to two major points.

    One is understanding that men and women are fundamentally different and thus have different desires, emotions, and ways of thinking.

    Two is realizing that if you want women, you must work to become an attractive man. Not just physically, but also mentally. Everyone knows what an attractive man is physically, but only the Game community tells you what an attractive man is mentally.

    For me it was a fairly easy transition as I am naturally a 7 on looks (8 or 9 with lifting and good style) and have some kind of dictatorial predisposition which results in people following me and forming cults based on me. The latter happened recently on Discord with teenage girls which forced me to delete my account owing to American laws about age of consent (I did nothing illegal but it was a bad look).

    I don't recommend spending an inordinate amount of time on attracting women as it's better to acquire money and power (and then you will get women anyway), but it's good to familiarize yourself with the theory. It also protects you from getting exploited by attractive women when you do have money and power.

    If you want specifics I suppose I can give them.

    The greatest single lesson of the Game community for me is:

    Never pay attention to what people say, only what they do.

    Read More
    • Replies: @AaronB
    Sound advice up to a point. The narratives people live by are often very revealing.
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  128. @AP

    Elimination of domestic violence laws doesn’t eliminate laws on assault and battery.
     
    Okay. Point taken. That seems fine.

    My problem was the idea that a woman should be forced to stay married to a man who abuses them. This does not mean that divorces ought to be easy or encouraged for frivolous reasons, particularly when children are involved.

    The best defense against abusive men is angry brothers and protective fathers.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    This is true. Shaykh Hamza Yusuf mentioned he never heard of any domestic violence in the area of Mauritania where he traveled. Everyone knew that if somebody beat up his wife and she told her family, the husband would be visited by her father, brothers and possibly cousins and then it wuld spiral from there. You could literally start a tribal conflagration and everyone would be pissed off at you (including your own family) in the aftermath.

    The other good way that fathers interdict this behavior is that they must investigate that the guy seeking their daughter's hand has no proclivities toward this behavior or grew up in a household where his own father beat up his mother. That makes a world of difference.

    Peace.
    , @iffen
    The best defense against abusive men is angry brothers and protective fathers.


    Not every female will have these. How about a community and society with angry and protective males?
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  129. Talha says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    My teachers have taught me to avoid being alone with attractive females AT ALL COSTS. You will lose big time!

     

    Stunning alpha right here.

    I’m not sure what this means, but I can tell you that if I was in a similar situation and an attractive woman was willing (and unfortunately for me, I find it very easy to start conversing to women – it comes naturally and I have to suppress it – it’s even worse for my brother) – all that Sufi training would go out the window.

    The key of Sufi-training is to come to a very realistic understanding of your own soul, its proclivities, its weaknesses. The key is to realize you aren’t the hero of some script that your ego keeps writing and revising for yourself. Thus, in my situation – knowing what I know about myself; I would never, EVER put myself in that situation.

    It’s like an obese guy trying not to eat the box of cookies in his pantry; no way he will win. He should have fought the fight way early on by leaving them on the shelf in the grocery store.

    Peace.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    Relax. Most women are whores. Why pass it up?

    But when you lock one down, isolate and protect her.
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  130. @Talha
    I'm not sure what this means, but I can tell you that if I was in a similar situation and an attractive woman was willing (and unfortunately for me, I find it very easy to start conversing to women - it comes naturally and I have to suppress it - it's even worse for my brother) - all that Sufi training would go out the window.

    The key of Sufi-training is to come to a very realistic understanding of your own soul, its proclivities, its weaknesses. The key is to realize you aren't the hero of some script that your ego keeps writing and revising for yourself. Thus, in my situation - knowing what I know about myself; I would never, EVER put myself in that situation.

    It's like an obese guy trying not to eat the box of cookies in his pantry; no way he will win. He should have fought the fight way early on by leaving them on the shelf in the grocery store.

    Peace.

    Relax. Most women are whores. Why pass it up?

    But when you lock one down, isolate and protect her.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha

    Why pass it up?
     
    Apparently you have not read of the punishments that await adulterers in the Afterlife as explicated by hadith.

    That's why I would avoid with a ten-foot pole - not because I am a eunuch.

    Also, my teachers have mentioned (and they have the experience of counseling thousands of families and young men and women all together) that what goes around comes around. Don't be surprised if you are eventually cuckolded if you cuckold another man.

    I have your best interests in mind; avoid like the plague.

    Peace.
    , @anonymous coward

    Relax. Most women are whores. Why pass it up?
     
    They're only whores because some cad in her youth "didn't pass it up". You made them whores.

    But when you lock one down, isolate and protect her.
     
    Sorry, but you will never 'lock one down'. Good women don't associate with males who associate with whores.

    Game is the male equivalent of the eat-pray-love catlady. Don't get sucked into the taripit.
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  131. @Thorfinnsson
    I am comfortable with adultery. I was once engaged to a married woman and she got divorced on my behalf. I will never forget the first time I entered her. Still love her but had to move on.

    What I'm not comfortable with is child support and/or death threats.

    And yes, to be clear, I think adultery should be illegal.

    But I take advantage of what I can.

    I am comfortable with adultery.

    That seems contradictory with your belief it should be prohibited…if you recognize it as immoral and harmful for the cohesion of society (as adultery clearly is), why do it?

    I was once engaged to a married woman

    That sounds pretty bad, you can be glad her husband didn’t kill you as he would have been justified in doing.
    Lust not after her beauty in thine heart; neither let her take thee with her eyelids.
    26For by means of a whorish woman a man is brought to a piece of bread: and the adulteress will hunt for the precious life.

    Sound advice imo.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    I do it because I like it. As I've said before, hypocrisy is the price of having standards.

    I can do something while at the same time recognizing it is not good for society and should be prohibited.

    You are correct that her husband was justified in killing me, which fortunately for me did not happen. She is back with him now, but we still love eachother and see eachother on occasion.

    I don't think I will ever stop loving her in fact.

    Miss you Sara. <3
    , @Daniel Chieh

    That sounds pretty bad, you can be glad her husband didn’t kill you as he would have been justified in doing.

     

    Would only that any men have the courage to do anything like that nowadays.

    This reminds me of one of the few times I know something like that happened; one of my "redneck" friends was put in prison because he found someone who had molested his daughter and proceeded to beat him to an inch of his life.

    At the court, he pled guilty, of course. For clemency, they asked if he had any regrets about his actions:

    "I regret that I didn't kill that sonovabitch."

    He got a greatly reduced sentence, because, well, he really wasn't a general threat to society.
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  132. Talha says:
    @Daniel Chieh
    The best defense against abusive men is angry brothers and protective fathers.

    This is true. Shaykh Hamza Yusuf mentioned he never heard of any domestic violence in the area of Mauritania where he traveled. Everyone knew that if somebody beat up his wife and she told her family, the husband would be visited by her father, brothers and possibly cousins and then it wuld spiral from there. You could literally start a tribal conflagration and everyone would be pissed off at you (including your own family) in the aftermath.

    The other good way that fathers interdict this behavior is that they must investigate that the guy seeking their daughter’s hand has no proclivities toward this behavior or grew up in a household where his own father beat up his mother. That makes a world of difference.

    Peace.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    I say that, but in practice, I've known plenty of worthless brothers and absent fathers. Modernity is individualism for better or worse, and returning to such a configuration is an acceptance that a number of women would indeed be in terrible situations. I'm fine with that, and think that the converse has been worse.

    But part of making decisions is to be aware that there are consequences, and they are often unfortunate.
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  133. @German_reader

    I am comfortable with adultery.
     
    That seems contradictory with your belief it should be prohibited...if you recognize it as immoral and harmful for the cohesion of society (as adultery clearly is), why do it?

    I was once engaged to a married woman
     
    That sounds pretty bad, you can be glad her husband didn't kill you as he would have been justified in doing.
    Lust not after her beauty in thine heart; neither let her take thee with her eyelids.
    26For by means of a whorish woman a man is brought to a piece of bread: and the adulteress will hunt for the precious life.

    Sound advice imo.

    I do it because I like it. As I’ve said before, hypocrisy is the price of having standards.

    I can do something while at the same time recognizing it is not good for society and should be prohibited.

    You are correct that her husband was justified in killing me, which fortunately for me did not happen. She is back with him now, but we still love eachother and see eachother on occasion.

    I don’t think I will ever stop loving her in fact.

    Miss you Sara. <3

    Read More
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  134. AaronB says:
    @Daniel Chieh
    The greatest single lesson of the Game community for me is:

    Never pay attention to what people say, only what they do.

    Sound advice up to a point. The narratives people live by are often very revealing.

    Read More
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  135. Talha says:
    @Thorfinnsson
    Relax. Most women are whores. Why pass it up?

    But when you lock one down, isolate and protect her.

    Why pass it up?

    Apparently you have not read of the punishments that await adulterers in the Afterlife as explicated by hadith.

    That’s why I would avoid with a ten-foot pole – not because I am a eunuch.

    Also, my teachers have mentioned (and they have the experience of counseling thousands of families and young men and women all together) that what goes around comes around. Don’t be surprised if you are eventually cuckolded if you cuckold another man.

    I have your best interests in mind; avoid like the plague.

    Peace.

    Read More
    • Replies: @German_reader

    Apparently you have not read of the punishments that await adulterers in the Afterlife as explicated by hadith.
     
    Why should Thor read that? He's not a Muslim.
    According to your religion he and all the other infidels here would be horribly punished anyway even if they led a saint's life, so using that as an argument against adultery isn't very convincing.
    , @Thorfinnsson
    As German_reader said, I am not a Mohammedan.

    But I get similar lessons from Christians.

    Usually these lessons come from men who can't pull.

    But not always.

    And there is something to it.

    I don't allow women to have power over me.

    Or do I?

    And no, I would not be surprised to be cuckolded. My default assumption is that all women are whores. That means no one is immune.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i4DI71X6PeM

    , @Dmitry

    Apparently you have not read of the punishments that await adulterers in the Afterlife as explicated by hadith.

     

    So you just respond to (imaginary) punishments and rewards, like a mouse in a cage.

    No actual morality?
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  136. @German_reader

    I am comfortable with adultery.
     
    That seems contradictory with your belief it should be prohibited...if you recognize it as immoral and harmful for the cohesion of society (as adultery clearly is), why do it?

    I was once engaged to a married woman
     
    That sounds pretty bad, you can be glad her husband didn't kill you as he would have been justified in doing.
    Lust not after her beauty in thine heart; neither let her take thee with her eyelids.
    26For by means of a whorish woman a man is brought to a piece of bread: and the adulteress will hunt for the precious life.

    Sound advice imo.

    That sounds pretty bad, you can be glad her husband didn’t kill you as he would have been justified in doing.

    Would only that any men have the courage to do anything like that nowadays.

    This reminds me of one of the few times I know something like that happened; one of my “redneck” friends was put in prison because he found someone who had molested his daughter and proceeded to beat him to an inch of his life.

    At the court, he pled guilty, of course. For clemency, they asked if he had any regrets about his actions:

    “I regret that I didn’t kill that sonovabitch.”

    He got a greatly reduced sentence, because, well, he really wasn’t a general threat to society.

    Read More
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  137. @Talha
    This is true. Shaykh Hamza Yusuf mentioned he never heard of any domestic violence in the area of Mauritania where he traveled. Everyone knew that if somebody beat up his wife and she told her family, the husband would be visited by her father, brothers and possibly cousins and then it wuld spiral from there. You could literally start a tribal conflagration and everyone would be pissed off at you (including your own family) in the aftermath.

    The other good way that fathers interdict this behavior is that they must investigate that the guy seeking their daughter's hand has no proclivities toward this behavior or grew up in a household where his own father beat up his mother. That makes a world of difference.

    Peace.

    I say that, but in practice, I’ve known plenty of worthless brothers and absent fathers. Modernity is individualism for better or worse, and returning to such a configuration is an acceptance that a number of women would indeed be in terrible situations. I’m fine with that, and think that the converse has been worse.

    But part of making decisions is to be aware that there are consequences, and they are often unfortunate.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    I can only speak for myself - any young man who comes asking for my daughter's hand - if successfully engaged will have a sit down with me before the marriage where I will make it clear to him that if I hear he has hurt my daughter, I will wipe the floor with him.

    My wife has already started talking to my boys about how it is not acceptable to hit their wives (or women in general).

    It's fairly simple actually; my father never lifted a hand at my mother so I never lifted a hand to my wife.

    I'll never forget the time one of my spiritual teachers sat me and my wife down for our first counseling session to assess the health of our marriage. He stared me down directly into my eyes and asked my wife; "Sister, has he ever cursed at you or ever hit you?"

    He is a 60+ man, but I remember that look conveying; "If she says yes to either of those, boy, I'll beat the hell out of you!" I've never been as frightened of a sexagenarian before or after that moment.

    Peace.
    , @Thulean Friend
    One solution would be to institute paternalism on the part of the wider community. Small groups often have a strong understanding of who is best fit to lead, this dramatically worsens as the group expands and it becomes worthless at a mass scale (democracy). The default should be her brothers/cousins/father but there should be a community veto if they are deemed unfit. That community should not be larger than a few hundred people.


    Of course, that solution is not flawless either, but it does get at this problem while still giving the benefit of the doubt to the individual family men in the first instance.


    Finally, not all women are worthless. Some matriarchs are indeed very capable of running their families with an iron fist and doing so in a able way. I have personally witnessed families where the men are incapable of leading and/or frankly largely useless and where the women make all the wheels run smoothly. So these examples exist, but that being said, male rule should be the norm.

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  138. @Talha

    Why pass it up?
     
    Apparently you have not read of the punishments that await adulterers in the Afterlife as explicated by hadith.

    That's why I would avoid with a ten-foot pole - not because I am a eunuch.

    Also, my teachers have mentioned (and they have the experience of counseling thousands of families and young men and women all together) that what goes around comes around. Don't be surprised if you are eventually cuckolded if you cuckold another man.

    I have your best interests in mind; avoid like the plague.

    Peace.

    Apparently you have not read of the punishments that await adulterers in the Afterlife as explicated by hadith.

    Why should Thor read that? He’s not a Muslim.
    According to your religion he and all the other infidels here would be horribly punished anyway even if they led a saint’s life, so using that as an argument against adultery isn’t very convincing.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    I get that - but he was asking me why I would pass it up.

    I was sincerely trying to advise him to what is best for his soul.

    I would heavily, heavily advise against hypocrisy:
    "Verily, the hypocrites will be in the lowest depth (grade) of the Fire; no helper will you find for them." (4:145)

    I'm just putting it out there and giving advice as I've learned from my teachers (again from their experiences of collectively counseling thousands of people); do as you please with it.

    Peace.

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  139. AaronB says:
    @Talha
    I will have to agree with AP's assessment - some of these proposals are far more than even allowed by traditional Shariah-regulated societies; they will come to us in throngs as a traditional-but-more-accommodating alternative.

    The seeker-to-the-crown should reassess his proposals.

    Peace.

    It is not unusual for the first step back to health to be an overreaction – this is why I think the alt right will be a transitional phenomenon, and although the younger generation of whites is showing signs of health, they still have far to travel. Which is perfectly understandable – and they are still much better than the older commenters here.

    Game too was an understandable overreaction against femininism, but its also a transitional adolescent phenomenon. Game can be useful to break the hold of the poz on a young mans mind, but to remain stuck in it is to remain an adolescent.

    Game in a backhanded fashion still tries to impress women and is still obsessed with women’s opinions – the true “frame” is to not care about women’s opinion, but be guided by a moral code, regardless of how they react.

    But the adolescent always revels by going to the opposite extreme – and it’s a necessary transitional stage. We should not begrudge them that – just gently guide them to see beyond it.

    What a lot of young men don’t realize also is that women powerfully respond to love – showing real love and affection is like catnip to them. Of course, assuming you’re attractive in general.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh

    What a lot of young men don’t realize also is that women powerfully respond to love – showing real love and affection is like catnip to them. Of course, assuming you’re attractive in general.
     
    Sexual harassment: noun
    Flirting while unattractive.
    , @Talha
    Batting it out the park!

    I think even Roosh has expressed second thoughts about obsession with game. I remember reading an article from him about how it was just not fulfilling for him.

    Anyway, game is something that is simply a side-effect of the breakdown of a healthy patriarchy. No patriarchy worth its salt would allow that nonsense to go on.

    Loss of patriarchy and tradition actually reminds me very much of this in a literal sense...
    https://youtu.be/XmHy34EWlpw?t=2m9s

    Peace.
    , @iffen
    I am going to be reading your posts more closely, AB.

    Life is a serious of transitions.

    Deep.
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  140. Talha says:
    @German_reader

    Apparently you have not read of the punishments that await adulterers in the Afterlife as explicated by hadith.
     
    Why should Thor read that? He's not a Muslim.
    According to your religion he and all the other infidels here would be horribly punished anyway even if they led a saint's life, so using that as an argument against adultery isn't very convincing.

    I get that – but he was asking me why I would pass it up.

    I was sincerely trying to advise him to what is best for his soul.

    I would heavily, heavily advise against hypocrisy:
    “Verily, the hypocrites will be in the lowest depth (grade) of the Fire; no helper will you find for them.” (4:145)

    I’m just putting it out there and giving advice as I’ve learned from my teachers (again from their experiences of collectively counseling thousands of people); do as you please with it.

    Peace.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    I'm going to hell anyway. Baptists told me that I would go to hell if I believed in evolution.
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  141. @Talha
    I get that - but he was asking me why I would pass it up.

    I was sincerely trying to advise him to what is best for his soul.

    I would heavily, heavily advise against hypocrisy:
    "Verily, the hypocrites will be in the lowest depth (grade) of the Fire; no helper will you find for them." (4:145)

    I'm just putting it out there and giving advice as I've learned from my teachers (again from their experiences of collectively counseling thousands of people); do as you please with it.

    Peace.

    I’m going to hell anyway. Baptists told me that I would go to hell if I believed in evolution.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    OK - I get that, but there are levels of Hell - not everyone gets treated the same. So even then, don't settle for low standards.

    Peace.
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  142. Talha says:
    @Daniel Chieh
    I say that, but in practice, I've known plenty of worthless brothers and absent fathers. Modernity is individualism for better or worse, and returning to such a configuration is an acceptance that a number of women would indeed be in terrible situations. I'm fine with that, and think that the converse has been worse.

    But part of making decisions is to be aware that there are consequences, and they are often unfortunate.

    I can only speak for myself – any young man who comes asking for my daughter’s hand – if successfully engaged will have a sit down with me before the marriage where I will make it clear to him that if I hear he has hurt my daughter, I will wipe the floor with him.

    My wife has already started talking to my boys about how it is not acceptable to hit their wives (or women in general).

    It’s fairly simple actually; my father never lifted a hand at my mother so I never lifted a hand to my wife.

    I’ll never forget the time one of my spiritual teachers sat me and my wife down for our first counseling session to assess the health of our marriage. He stared me down directly into my eyes and asked my wife; “Sister, has he ever cursed at you or ever hit you?”

    He is a 60+ man, but I remember that look conveying; “If she says yes to either of those, boy, I’ll beat the hell out of you!” I’ve never been as frightened of a sexagenarian before or after that moment.

    Peace.

    Read More
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  143. Talha says:
    @Daniel Chieh
    I'm going to hell anyway. Baptists told me that I would go to hell if I believed in evolution.

    OK – I get that, but there are levels of Hell – not everyone gets treated the same. So even then, don’t settle for low standards.

    Peace.

    Read More
    • Replies: @DFH

    I get that, but there are levels of Hell
     
    Correct; Muhammad is in the eighth
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  144. AP says:
    @Thorfinnsson
    Are you impressed with women in modern societies? Have you seen how fat they are?

    How many women have you been with?

    Anyone with a number under 20 is incompetent to discuss this.

    Are you impressed with women in modern societies? Have you seen how fat they are?

    Yes, I mentioned that feminism also had a deleterious effect. The most attractive women are in Eastern Europe, which has remained relatively free of feminism but where women are not treated as cattle. The West was probably like this prior to the late 1960s.

    How many women have you been with?
    Anyone with a number under 20 is incompetent to discuss this.

    This isn’t evidence of expertise.

    Despite being an intelligent, interesting, physically attractive, honorable (as evidenced by your treatment of those working for you) and wealthy man, you are in your thirties and have failed to establish a solid productive relationship with a woman. You have also not been fortunate to have had experienced a good relationship between your parents. So, I doubt your expertise in this particular area.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    I had a great relationship with Sara.

    I miss her.
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  145. @AaronB
    It is not unusual for the first step back to health to be an overreaction - this is why I think the alt right will be a transitional phenomenon, and although the younger generation of whites is showing signs of health, they still have far to travel. Which is perfectly understandable - and they are still much better than the older commenters here.

    Game too was an understandable overreaction against femininism, but its also a transitional adolescent phenomenon. Game can be useful to break the hold of the poz on a young mans mind, but to remain stuck in it is to remain an adolescent.

    Game in a backhanded fashion still tries to impress women and is still obsessed with women's opinions - the true "frame" is to not care about women's opinion, but be guided by a moral code, regardless of how they react.

    But the adolescent always revels by going to the opposite extreme - and it's a necessary transitional stage. We should not begrudge them that - just gently guide them to see beyond it.

    What a lot of young men don't realize also is that women powerfully respond to love - showing real love and affection is like catnip to them. Of course, assuming you're attractive in general.

    What a lot of young men don’t realize also is that women powerfully respond to love – showing real love and affection is like catnip to them. Of course, assuming you’re attractive in general.

    Sexual harassment: noun
    Flirting while unattractive.

    Read More
    • LOL: iffen
    • Replies: @AaronB
    Sort of.

    But when I get a few drinks in me I get really affectionate and friendly - I am fearless and loving and direct and the last thing in my mind is impressing women with my masculinity or playing aloof mind games or trying to lower them or raise myself in any way - and women who aren't attracted to me respond really sweetly to me, while women who are attracted to me go nuts.

    I am personally convinced that a fearless display of love is powerfully attractive to women on a primal level, but it takes a kind of courage - you are lowering your defenses and accepting vulnerability.

    This isn't even mentioned in Game. But Game is just an adolescent phase - I don't begrudge people going through it, but you can't settle down in it.
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  146. DFH says:
    @Talha
    OK - I get that, but there are levels of Hell - not everyone gets treated the same. So even then, don't settle for low standards.

    Peace.

    I get that, but there are levels of Hell

    Correct; Muhammad is in the eighth

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    Ah good old Dante...

    We say he is Sayyid ul-Kownain, the one granted Maqam Mahmood. You say he is false.

    Let's wait it out and see who is right, shall we?

    Peace.
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  147. @Daniel Chieh
    I say that, but in practice, I've known plenty of worthless brothers and absent fathers. Modernity is individualism for better or worse, and returning to such a configuration is an acceptance that a number of women would indeed be in terrible situations. I'm fine with that, and think that the converse has been worse.

    But part of making decisions is to be aware that there are consequences, and they are often unfortunate.

    One solution would be to institute paternalism on the part of the wider community. Small groups often have a strong understanding of who is best fit to lead, this dramatically worsens as the group expands and it becomes worthless at a mass scale (democracy). The default should be her brothers/cousins/father but there should be a community veto if they are deemed unfit. That community should not be larger than a few hundred people.

    Of course, that solution is not flawless either, but it does get at this problem while still giving the benefit of the doubt to the individual family men in the first instance.

    Finally, not all women are worthless. Some matriarchs are indeed very capable of running their families with an iron fist and doing so in a able way. I have personally witnessed families where the men are incapable of leading and/or frankly largely useless and where the women make all the wheels run smoothly. So these examples exist, but that being said, male rule should be the norm.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh

    One solution would be to institute paternalism on the part of the wider community.
     
    You said that you were a manager. You have a problem in your department. Do you?

    1) Attempt to isolate the problem and solve it through a minimum number of changes.

    2)Attempt to change the entire company culture.
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  148. Talha says:
    @AaronB
    It is not unusual for the first step back to health to be an overreaction - this is why I think the alt right will be a transitional phenomenon, and although the younger generation of whites is showing signs of health, they still have far to travel. Which is perfectly understandable - and they are still much better than the older commenters here.

    Game too was an understandable overreaction against femininism, but its also a transitional adolescent phenomenon. Game can be useful to break the hold of the poz on a young mans mind, but to remain stuck in it is to remain an adolescent.

    Game in a backhanded fashion still tries to impress women and is still obsessed with women's opinions - the true "frame" is to not care about women's opinion, but be guided by a moral code, regardless of how they react.

    But the adolescent always revels by going to the opposite extreme - and it's a necessary transitional stage. We should not begrudge them that - just gently guide them to see beyond it.

    What a lot of young men don't realize also is that women powerfully respond to love - showing real love and affection is like catnip to them. Of course, assuming you're attractive in general.

    Batting it out the park!

    I think even Roosh has expressed second thoughts about obsession with game. I remember reading an article from him about how it was just not fulfilling for him.

    Anyway, game is something that is simply a side-effect of the breakdown of a healthy patriarchy. No patriarchy worth its salt would allow that nonsense to go on.

    Loss of patriarchy and tradition actually reminds me very much of this in a literal sense…

    Peace.

    Read More
    • Replies: @AaronB
    Agreed.

    There are too many problems with game to get into here - why take a beautiful and playful thing like love and kill all spontaneity and fun and and make it into this dreary thing of rules and formulas. Shudder.

    And exchanging love and affection with other humans and is just so much fun - if I had to constantly be on my guard, suppress my natural affection, I might as well go to a prostitute.

    But I understand why it may be necessary for some men to go through a game stage in today's corrupt culture.

    It is ephemeral though and game will fade away as the culture gets healthier.
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  149. Talha says:
    @DFH

    I get that, but there are levels of Hell
     
    Correct; Muhammad is in the eighth

    Ah good old Dante…

    We say he is Sayyid ul-Kownain, the one granted Maqam Mahmood. You say he is false.

    Let’s wait it out and see who is right, shall we?

    Peace.

    Read More
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  150. AaronB says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    What a lot of young men don’t realize also is that women powerfully respond to love – showing real love and affection is like catnip to them. Of course, assuming you’re attractive in general.
     
    Sexual harassment: noun
    Flirting while unattractive.

    Sort of.

    But when I get a few drinks in me I get really affectionate and friendly – I am fearless and loving and direct and the last thing in my mind is impressing women with my masculinity or playing aloof mind games or trying to lower them or raise myself in any way – and women who aren’t attracted to me respond really sweetly to me, while women who are attracted to me go nuts.

    I am personally convinced that a fearless display of love is powerfully attractive to women on a primal level, but it takes a kind of courage – you are lowering your defenses and accepting vulnerability.

    This isn’t even mentioned in Game. But Game is just an adolescent phase – I don’t begrudge people going through it, but you can’t settle down in it.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    Confidence is always attractive, but I'm not totally sure that is the same thing as love. But I'm pretty sure that love as generally understood by a lot of people, which is puppydom and orbiting, is a good way to get friendzoned and worse.

    Arguably the effusiveness thing is part of the entire "make her say no" part of Game anyway. That said, most of the more technical stuff of Game is just silly amusement crap designed to speak to nerds, who I imagine are the target audience.
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  151. God I miss Sara.

    I don’t even care anymore that she’s old and has small tits.

    I want her to be with me.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    Bro, are you channeling Macron?

    Peace.
    , @Mr. Hack
    Glad to see that you took my advice, Thor's son:

    Anything over a handful is a waste.
     
    :-)

    But if she's married move on. Remember when your parents split up and what pain that has caused you your whole life? Perhaps, she has kids too that want her to stick around with Daddy?...

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  152. Talha says:
    @AP

    And yes, women absolutely must be controlled.
     
    When women are treated as cattle they tend to resemble cattle. As one sees in the Middle East (notice how even Iraqi or Lebanese Christian girls, or ones from de-Islamified families, tend to look nicer than non-Christian ones). Who needs that? Feminism is also, in a lesser and different way, also mysogynistic, by not valuing femininity or by promoting masculinity among women, with consequences in appearance.

    Pre-femimism was fine, no need to react by imitating the tradtional Muslims. Eastern Europe manages to value women while not promoting feminism, that ought to be the model.

    Pre-femimism was fine, no need to react by imitating the tradtional Muslims.

    History lesson fail:

    He’s talking about imitating traditional Europeans – has nothing to do with us, chief. I can easly find you photos of women from parts of Sweden circa late 1800s that dress more modestly than hijab-wearing Muslim women today.

    Peace.

    Read More
    • Replies: @AP
    Are you suggesting that women in Europe of the 1890s had fewer rights than Muslim women at those times?
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  153. @Thulean Friend
    One solution would be to institute paternalism on the part of the wider community. Small groups often have a strong understanding of who is best fit to lead, this dramatically worsens as the group expands and it becomes worthless at a mass scale (democracy). The default should be her brothers/cousins/father but there should be a community veto if they are deemed unfit. That community should not be larger than a few hundred people.


    Of course, that solution is not flawless either, but it does get at this problem while still giving the benefit of the doubt to the individual family men in the first instance.


    Finally, not all women are worthless. Some matriarchs are indeed very capable of running their families with an iron fist and doing so in a able way. I have personally witnessed families where the men are incapable of leading and/or frankly largely useless and where the women make all the wheels run smoothly. So these examples exist, but that being said, male rule should be the norm.

    One solution would be to institute paternalism on the part of the wider community.

    You said that you were a manager. You have a problem in your department. Do you?

    1) Attempt to isolate the problem and solve it through a minimum number of changes.

    2)Attempt to change the entire company culture.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Thulean Friend
    You said that you believed that the most cost-effective way to invest in health care is in preventive treatment(which is not the same as always giving medicine to a patient). I believe in the same principle with regards to cultural habits and norms.
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  154. AaronB says:
    @Talha
    Batting it out the park!

    I think even Roosh has expressed second thoughts about obsession with game. I remember reading an article from him about how it was just not fulfilling for him.

    Anyway, game is something that is simply a side-effect of the breakdown of a healthy patriarchy. No patriarchy worth its salt would allow that nonsense to go on.

    Loss of patriarchy and tradition actually reminds me very much of this in a literal sense...
    https://youtu.be/XmHy34EWlpw?t=2m9s

    Peace.

    Agreed.

    There are too many problems with game to get into here – why take a beautiful and playful thing like love and kill all spontaneity and fun and and make it into this dreary thing of rules and formulas. Shudder.

    And exchanging love and affection with other humans and is just so much fun – if I had to constantly be on my guard, suppress my natural affection, I might as well go to a prostitute.

    But I understand why it may be necessary for some men to go through a game stage in today’s corrupt culture.

    It is ephemeral though and game will fade away as the culture gets healthier.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    I am completely incapable of talking about Game since I've only been with the woman that I've married. The one plus on my side is that my wife came pursuing me through one of our mutual teachers - so that's kind of cool.

    That's OK though, if non-Muslims want to be good at Game and figure out how to bed women easily, it's their business, they just shouldn't complain that there are then a lack of marriageable women around that aren't chaste...because, well - mathematics.

    There's no way Muslim fathers like me are going to let that stuff raise its head in our communities if we can help it. I followed the rules, I expect other young men to do the same.

    Peace.

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  155. Talha says:
    @Thorfinnsson
    God I miss Sara.

    I don't even care anymore that she's old and has small tits.

    I want her to be with me.

    Bro, are you channeling Macron?

    Peace.

    Read More
    • LOL: Thorfinnsson
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  156. @Thorfinnsson
    Honestly I might just knock her up anyway.

    Next week the factory is closed, but she and I will be working while everyone else is off.

    It will be very difficult to avoid the temptation.

    Her buttocks are hypnotic.

    I think we have similar weaknesses.

    By the way I have been married for almost a quarter of a century, and except for a couple of missteps during the first years of marriage, have not been screwing around. But it is very difficult. I love women, am extremely attracted by them, and have on average quite a bit of success with them as a result of my physique and status. In a way that really is a scourge. By the way I truly love my wife who is very pretty, but that does not prevent my mind from racing furiously whenever in contact with a beauty. I think it’s genes, what can I do? My father was the same and my paternal grandfather too.

    I did not know there was this maxim in “the Game”. But it really is Catholic/Orthodox you know (judge people by their deeds, not their words).

    Which reminds me that you never answered an earlier question of mine, where I was asking you if you could talk a bit about this “Game”. I know nothing about it other that seeing Tom Cruise in American Beauty as some kind of instructor at “Game” seminars of sorts. I would really like to read your insights about it.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Greasy William
    Tom Cruise was in American Beauty?

    What I have never understood about marriage is, what happens when you aren't attracted to her anymore? When you are both 90, she is gonna be grossing you out. The idea of "growing old together" is, to me at least, extremely unappealing. Now don't get me wrong, I simply enjoy being alone, my longest relationship ever was 2 weeks, and I wouldn't want to be married regardless; but the only way I could ever understand the appeal of a lifetime commitment is if you were both going to stay 25 until you were dead. Those old couples that everybody finds so cute, I just find depressing.

    ...

    re Game: I think PUA stuff is a dumb and basically comes down to numbers and how good looking and charismatic you are, but they are definitely right about the way that women will just gravitate towards alphas.

    My advice is that if you aren't tall and/or super good looking (women don't care if you are a 7 out of 10, the only way to impress women with your looks is to have 8/10 facial aesthetics minimum) to avoid clubs and internet dating.
    , @Thorfinnsson
    I am not sure if Mediterranean populations require this lesson. To you it may just be common sense?

    I told German_reader that ultimately Game comes down to two lessons.

    The first is that men and women are fundamentally different.

    The second is that to get women, you must work to become an attractive man.

    There are some tricks beyond this, but they're really just lines and jokes. They aren't a substitute for being an attractive man.
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  157. Talha says:
    @AaronB
    Agreed.

    There are too many problems with game to get into here - why take a beautiful and playful thing like love and kill all spontaneity and fun and and make it into this dreary thing of rules and formulas. Shudder.

    And exchanging love and affection with other humans and is just so much fun - if I had to constantly be on my guard, suppress my natural affection, I might as well go to a prostitute.

    But I understand why it may be necessary for some men to go through a game stage in today's corrupt culture.

    It is ephemeral though and game will fade away as the culture gets healthier.

    I am completely incapable of talking about Game since I’ve only been with the woman that I’ve married. The one plus on my side is that my wife came pursuing me through one of our mutual teachers – so that’s kind of cool.

    That’s OK though, if non-Muslims want to be good at Game and figure out how to bed women easily, it’s their business, they just shouldn’t complain that there are then a lack of marriageable women around that aren’t chaste…because, well – mathematics.

    There’s no way Muslim fathers like me are going to let that stuff raise its head in our communities if we can help it. I followed the rules, I expect other young men to do the same.

    Peace.

    Read More
    • Replies: @AaronB
    In a healthy culture it will be that way.
    , @iffen
    That’s OK though, if non-Muslims want to be good at Game and figure out how to bed women easily, it’s their business


    I call you on this, Talha. You can't just stay in your Muslim bubble and not care about the nation as a whole.
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  158. @AaronB
    Sort of.

    But when I get a few drinks in me I get really affectionate and friendly - I am fearless and loving and direct and the last thing in my mind is impressing women with my masculinity or playing aloof mind games or trying to lower them or raise myself in any way - and women who aren't attracted to me respond really sweetly to me, while women who are attracted to me go nuts.

    I am personally convinced that a fearless display of love is powerfully attractive to women on a primal level, but it takes a kind of courage - you are lowering your defenses and accepting vulnerability.

    This isn't even mentioned in Game. But Game is just an adolescent phase - I don't begrudge people going through it, but you can't settle down in it.

    Confidence is always attractive, but I’m not totally sure that is the same thing as love. But I’m pretty sure that love as generally understood by a lot of people, which is puppydom and orbiting, is a good way to get friendzoned and worse.

    Arguably the effusiveness thing is part of the entire “make her say no” part of Game anyway. That said, most of the more technical stuff of Game is just silly amusement crap designed to speak to nerds, who I imagine are the target audience.

    Read More
    • Replies: @AaronB

    puppydom and orbiting, is a good way to get friendzoned and worse
     
    Right, that's not what I mean by love. That's not self respecting behavior regardless of how she reacts.

    And it's not about getting her to say no, but genuine affection and friendliness. There is nothing hostile in it. Its genuine affection, just unconcerned with whether I'm impressing her with my value.

    Its outside the whole game vs pupoydom framework - its not motivated by fear, but affection, and game is still motivated by fear.
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  159. AP says:
    @Talha

    Pre-femimism was fine, no need to react by imitating the tradtional Muslims.
     
    History lesson fail:
    https://youtu.be/jfN60ZlZhpY?t=1m45s

    He's talking about imitating traditional Europeans - has nothing to do with us, chief. I can easly find you photos of women from parts of Sweden circa late 1800s that dress more modestly than hijab-wearing Muslim women today.

    Peace.

    Are you suggesting that women in Europe of the 1890s had fewer rights than Muslim women at those times?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    Nope, by 1890's they had caught up - especially in the area of property rights. But the stuff he was talking about is stuff older Europeans used to do, not us.

    We didn't deny divorce or property acquisition or allow a free hand in domestic violence (we still have court records from Ottoman times of wives taking husbands to court over this). And - at least in the Hanafi school - they could be judges over marital and economic disputes (not violent criminal or hudud cases).

    Peace.

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  160. AaronB says:
    @Daniel Chieh
    Confidence is always attractive, but I'm not totally sure that is the same thing as love. But I'm pretty sure that love as generally understood by a lot of people, which is puppydom and orbiting, is a good way to get friendzoned and worse.

    Arguably the effusiveness thing is part of the entire "make her say no" part of Game anyway. That said, most of the more technical stuff of Game is just silly amusement crap designed to speak to nerds, who I imagine are the target audience.

    puppydom and orbiting, is a good way to get friendzoned and worse

    Right, that’s not what I mean by love. That’s not self respecting behavior regardless of how she reacts.

    And it’s not about getting her to say no, but genuine affection and friendliness. There is nothing hostile in it. Its genuine affection, just unconcerned with whether I’m impressing her with my value.

    Its outside the whole game vs pupoydom framework – its not motivated by fear, but affection, and game is still motivated by fear.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    Yes, I also seduce women and believe that I always leave them better than I met them.

    I am not a narcissist.
    , @Daniel Chieh
    For what it is worth: I handwrote love letters on stationary with pretty nice calligraphy if I say so myself, and left roses bundled in silk and a poem of praise for the spirits of inspiration on the Hill of the Muses close to the Acropolis. So I am more of an embittered romantic than anything. Also going to hell for being a polytheist, clearly.
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  161. bjondo says:
    @bjondo
    reply to #52 still in moderation?

    at #88

    Read More
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  162. Talha says:
    @AP
    Are you suggesting that women in Europe of the 1890s had fewer rights than Muslim women at those times?

    Nope, by 1890′s they had caught up – especially in the area of property rights. But the stuff he was talking about is stuff older Europeans used to do, not us.

    We didn’t deny divorce or property acquisition or allow a free hand in domestic violence (we still have court records from Ottoman times of wives taking husbands to court over this). And – at least in the Hanafi school – they could be judges over marital and economic disputes (not violent criminal or hudud cases).

    Peace.

    Read More
    • Replies: @AP
    In places that were European colonies or in places such as Afghanistan, Persia or the Ottoman Empire?
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  163. AP says:
    @Talha
    Nope, by 1890's they had caught up - especially in the area of property rights. But the stuff he was talking about is stuff older Europeans used to do, not us.

    We didn't deny divorce or property acquisition or allow a free hand in domestic violence (we still have court records from Ottoman times of wives taking husbands to court over this). And - at least in the Hanafi school - they could be judges over marital and economic disputes (not violent criminal or hudud cases).

    Peace.

    In places that were European colonies or in places such as Afghanistan, Persia or the Ottoman Empire?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    Abbasid times. This is all classical rules, bro. The Hanafis ruled women could be judges in limited circumstances in like the 9th century.

    Peace.
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  164. @AaronB

    puppydom and orbiting, is a good way to get friendzoned and worse
     
    Right, that's not what I mean by love. That's not self respecting behavior regardless of how she reacts.

    And it's not about getting her to say no, but genuine affection and friendliness. There is nothing hostile in it. Its genuine affection, just unconcerned with whether I'm impressing her with my value.

    Its outside the whole game vs pupoydom framework - its not motivated by fear, but affection, and game is still motivated by fear.

    Yes, I also seduce women and believe that I always leave them better than I met them.

    I am not a narcissist.

    Read More
    • Replies: @AaronB
    Well that's good ;)
    , @iffen

    Yes, I also seduce women and believe that I always leave them better than I met them.

    I am not a narcissist.
     

    Stop it!

    Dan, do you ever stop and think about how few people are in a position to write comments that contain the words: "my redneck friend."

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  165. AaronB says:
    @Daniel Chieh
    Yes, I also seduce women and believe that I always leave them better than I met them.

    I am not a narcissist.

    Well that’s good ;)

    Read More
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  166. AaronB says:
    @Talha
    I am completely incapable of talking about Game since I've only been with the woman that I've married. The one plus on my side is that my wife came pursuing me through one of our mutual teachers - so that's kind of cool.

    That's OK though, if non-Muslims want to be good at Game and figure out how to bed women easily, it's their business, they just shouldn't complain that there are then a lack of marriageable women around that aren't chaste...because, well - mathematics.

    There's no way Muslim fathers like me are going to let that stuff raise its head in our communities if we can help it. I followed the rules, I expect other young men to do the same.

    Peace.

    In a healthy culture it will be that way.

    Read More
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  167. Not that I disagree with the post as a whole (it really does appear to be a necessary measure in the circumstances, and we will survive it), but what is wrong with being materialist? And what is so automatically right with being concerned with lofty nonmaterial nonsense? Wanting to live materially well is a worthy cause. If it is not and if being concerned with ideas and ideals is more important, then why do you dislike the Soviet Union so much? There was a lot of idealistic marching about too, back then, while selfishness and greed were at least publicly denounced.

    (Signed, a materialistic member of the younger generation.)

    Read More
    • Replies: @iffen
    And what is so automatically right with being concerned with lofty nonmaterial nonsense?


    Dude, you put your conclusion in there with your question. That won't fly with this group.
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  168. Talha says:
    @AP
    In places that were European colonies or in places such as Afghanistan, Persia or the Ottoman Empire?

    Abbasid times. This is all classical rules, bro. The Hanafis ruled women could be judges in limited circumstances in like the 9th century.

    Peace.

    Read More
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  169. @AaronB

    puppydom and orbiting, is a good way to get friendzoned and worse
     
    Right, that's not what I mean by love. That's not self respecting behavior regardless of how she reacts.

    And it's not about getting her to say no, but genuine affection and friendliness. There is nothing hostile in it. Its genuine affection, just unconcerned with whether I'm impressing her with my value.

    Its outside the whole game vs pupoydom framework - its not motivated by fear, but affection, and game is still motivated by fear.

    For what it is worth: I handwrote love letters on stationary with pretty nice calligraphy if I say so myself, and left roses bundled in silk and a poem of praise for the spirits of inspiration on the Hill of the Muses close to the Acropolis. So I am more of an embittered romantic than anything. Also going to hell for being a polytheist, clearly.

    Read More
    • Replies: @AaronB
    Very nice! Ill agree it's easy to get embittered these days, with both men and women.
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  170. “The youth march for things such as free and fair elections, against Internet censorship, against massive corruption in the Kremlin, for the Donbass and Novorossiya, for LGBT rights.” Is this a misprint? You support the encouragement and approval of these specific sexual perversions amongst your own people?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
    No, I did say some some of those causes were worthier than others. But at least they are marching for ideals.
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  171. @Felix Keverich
    I don't think this is going to work. University diploma is an important status symbol in Russia: if you come from a good family, you're expected to study in university. All your friends will study in university. Most white collar jobs won't even consider a candidate without a diploma. So what you're proposing in effect is to make higher education in Russia private like in America, forcing young people to take on loads of debt to finance their studies, delaying having kids etc.

    University diploma is an important status symbol in Russia

    Russia is not the only country suffering from this disease.

    Most white collar jobs won’t even consider a candidate without a diploma.

    For the traditional highly skilled professions (medicine, law, and so on), you train in special schools and receive qualification after taking exams. While the system for such professional training could no doubt be made more efficient, I am not suggesting to completely abolish it.

    For most other white collar jobs, there is no reason not to be learning on the job. University is just a drawn out and expensive signaling exercise. Expensive to the state, which has to pay for it, and expensive to the individual in terms of lost opportunities (for becoming an adult, making a living, forming a family). Given a choice between someone who has made a more expensive signal and someone who hasn’t, the employer is of course going to go for the more expensive signal. That’s one reason why the universities have to be abolished, not just disincentivized.

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    • Agree: Talha
    • Replies: @Thulean Friend
    The SAT, before the 1995 so-called "re-centering", was closely matched to IQ so that was useful. Fifty years ago, college admission was truly a sign of ~115 IQ or above, which puts you at the top 15% of the population. However, as admissions have increased, the correlation with IQ and college attendence has shrunk.


    I think your proposal are modest but reasonable. Intelligence affects everything, even menial job performance (as Gwern has pointed out in his recent book review of McNamara's experiments in Vietnam). Of course, more is required than intelligence to be successful in work. Conscientiousness is a key trait aside from intelligence which is highly predictive of performance and AFAIK it is harder to measure well.


    The idea behind college was initially good but it has lost its original utility for the vast many. The question that remains is if the political cost required of reforming such a system is even possible in a democracy, where it has become deeply embedded within striving and aspiring broad layers of the population, so much so where some have even begun to see their own identity as synonymous with having gone to college (and consequently, so must their children, out of sheer social pressure and conformity). People hate when someone take away what they desire most, even if it is bad/unnecessary for them.

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  172. AaronB says:
    @Daniel Chieh
    For what it is worth: I handwrote love letters on stationary with pretty nice calligraphy if I say so myself, and left roses bundled in silk and a poem of praise for the spirits of inspiration on the Hill of the Muses close to the Acropolis. So I am more of an embittered romantic than anything. Also going to hell for being a polytheist, clearly.

    Very nice! Ill agree it’s easy to get embittered these days, with both men and women.

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  173. @AP

    Are you impressed with women in modern societies? Have you seen how fat they are?
     
    Yes, I mentioned that feminism also had a deleterious effect. The most attractive women are in Eastern Europe, which has remained relatively free of feminism but where women are not treated as cattle. The West was probably like this prior to the late 1960s.

    How many women have you been with?
    Anyone with a number under 20 is incompetent to discuss this.
     
    This isn't evidence of expertise.

    Despite being an intelligent, interesting, physically attractive, honorable (as evidenced by your treatment of those working for you) and wealthy man, you are in your thirties and have failed to establish a solid productive relationship with a woman. You have also not been fortunate to have had experienced a good relationship between your parents. So, I doubt your expertise in this particular area.

    I had a great relationship with Sara.

    I miss her.

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    • Replies: @Talha
    Dear seeker-of-the-crown, I have to ask you to rethink this assessment.

    You had an adulterous relationship with this woman who eventually went back to her previous man after you had felt the relationship had had its due, but now possibly regret the decision.

    I’m pretty sure the lion’s share of humanity would disagree that this was a “great relationship”.

    Now numbers don’t always make right, but doesn’t this give you pause? Just something to think about.

    Peace.
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  174. iffen says:
    @Thorfinnsson
    I do indeed believe people should work until they drop, but I'm not opposed to old-age security.

    Hard to be harsh on an elderly person who no longer has the strength and energy of a young man.

    My plan doesn't eliminate old age security at all and further allows the elderly to help their grandchildren.

    What's wrong with that?

    I didn't make a proposal for a disability fund since I've never thought about the problem honestly. I did encounter it once however. When I was in jail for a few days five years ago there was a fellow inmate, an 18 year old black guy, who was on disability yet clearly able-bodied and healthy. I'll get back to you.

    an 18 year old black guy, who was on disability yet clearly able-bodied and healthy. I’ll get back to you

    Consider that disability payments are not actually enough to survive on so most work off the books. This is a great depressant on the wage level. Combined with illegals it makes it impossible for working people with few skills to get decent pay.

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  175. Talha says:
    @Thorfinnsson
    I had a great relationship with Sara.

    I miss her.

    Dear seeker-of-the-crown, I have to ask you to rethink this assessment.

    You had an adulterous relationship with this woman who eventually went back to her previous man after you had felt the relationship had had its due, but now possibly regret the decision.

    I’m pretty sure the lion’s share of humanity would disagree that this was a “great relationship”.

    Now numbers don’t always make right, but doesn’t this give you pause? Just something to think about.

    Peace.

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  176. iffen says:
    @Thorfinnsson
    Why do you assume anything radical is unrealistic?

    If we seize state power we can do anything.

    And yes, women absolutely must be controlled.

    I don't mean to be rude but do you have much experience with women?

    You yourself admit that modern societies completely fail in this aspect. Do you think this is a coincidence?

    If we seize state power we can do anything.

    Who is this we, Kemo Sabe? You write stuff like this time and again.

    (I’ll be an early signee if you let me be in charge of the guillotine). :)

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    • Agree: Mr. Hack
    • Replies: @Talha
    LOOOL!
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  177. iffen says:
    @reiner Tor
    OT

    The new American ambassador to Budapest, David B. Cornstein, is a WASP. Just kidding, he’s Jewish.

    Once in Budapest, he immediately visited the Soros university (CEU) whose fate he considered quite important, and then some local Jewish community.

    Apparently he wants to be a caricature of The Eternal One.

    OT

    Congrats! I saw where the EU solved the immigration problem.

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  178. Talha says:
    @iffen
    If we seize state power we can do anything.


    Who is this we, Kemo Sabe? You write stuff like this time and again.

    (I'll be an early signee if you let me be in charge of the guillotine). :)

    LOOOL!

    Read More
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  179. iffen says:
    @Daniel Chieh
    The best defense against abusive men is angry brothers and protective fathers.

    The best defense against abusive men is angry brothers and protective fathers.

    Not every female will have these. How about a community and society with angry and protective males?

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    • Replies: @Anon
    You don't want "males" "protecting" women they would like to sleep with.
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  180. iffen says:
    @DFH
    My impression is that the idea was to throw medical care at Africans

    My impression is that the idea was to throw medical care at Africans

    It’s rather difficult to make a case against simple vacination programs.

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    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    They lead to a population explosion of horribly undernourished people.
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  181. iffen says:
    @German_reader

    If we seize state power we can do anything.
     
    That's a very big if. I know you advocate a "Straussian" approach (that is lying about the true extent of one's intentions), but still, even if such an approach could work for a time, it just seems very unlikely to me you'll get mass support for such a programme which would be considerably more radical than going back to 1950s values.
    It seems to me like you think coercion by the state would be some kind of magical solution, but that seems rather dubious to me...have you ever thought about ways for changing the culture, building more traditional communities etc. that don't rely on having access to a massive apparatus of propaganda and coercion?

    I don’t mean to be rude but do you have much experience with women?
     
    Certainly not like you seem to have, but then I've never claimed to be much of a success in this regard.
    iirc you mentioned once that you've been part of the "game" community...how has that influenced your views of those issues?

    I know you advocate a “Straussian” approach (that is lying about the true extent of one’s intentions)

    Isn’t being crytic or esoteric different from lying?

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    • Replies: @German_reader
    I agree, that's not what Leo Strauss meant with his "esoteric" reading of texts (if I understand correctly it was more about truths supposedly hidden in texts due to censorship or because the author didn't want to make those truths accessible to the masses - but I've never read Strauss, so I might be wrong). But Thorfinsson seems to use "Straussian" in the sense of "lying about one's true programme", so I went with that usage.
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  182. iffen says:
    @AaronB
    It is not unusual for the first step back to health to be an overreaction - this is why I think the alt right will be a transitional phenomenon, and although the younger generation of whites is showing signs of health, they still have far to travel. Which is perfectly understandable - and they are still much better than the older commenters here.

    Game too was an understandable overreaction against femininism, but its also a transitional adolescent phenomenon. Game can be useful to break the hold of the poz on a young mans mind, but to remain stuck in it is to remain an adolescent.

    Game in a backhanded fashion still tries to impress women and is still obsessed with women's opinions - the true "frame" is to not care about women's opinion, but be guided by a moral code, regardless of how they react.

    But the adolescent always revels by going to the opposite extreme - and it's a necessary transitional stage. We should not begrudge them that - just gently guide them to see beyond it.

    What a lot of young men don't realize also is that women powerfully respond to love - showing real love and affection is like catnip to them. Of course, assuming you're attractive in general.

    I am going to be reading your posts more closely, AB.

    Life is a serious of transitions.

    Deep.

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    • Replies: @AaronB
    It is deep :)

    Things can't be viewed isolated, in the abstract, but as they relate to other things. Something may be a positive sign in one context but a negative in another.

    Alas, I sometimes fear I am not understood on this site!
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  183. @Guillaume Tell
    I think we have similar weaknesses.

    By the way I have been married for almost a quarter of a century, and except for a couple of missteps during the first years of marriage, have not been screwing around. But it is very difficult. I love women, am extremely attracted by them, and have on average quite a bit of success with them as a result of my physique and status. In a way that really is a scourge. By the way I truly love my wife who is very pretty, but that does not prevent my mind from racing furiously whenever in contact with a beauty. I think it’s genes, what can I do? My father was the same and my paternal grandfather too.

    I did not know there was this maxim in “the Game”. But it really is Catholic/Orthodox you know (judge people by their deeds, not their words).

    Which reminds me that you never answered an earlier question of mine, where I was asking you if you could talk a bit about this “Game”. I know nothing about it other that seeing Tom Cruise in American Beauty as some kind of instructor at “Game” seminars of sorts. I would really like to read your insights about it.

    Tom Cruise was in American Beauty?

    What I have never understood about marriage is, what happens when you aren’t attracted to her anymore? When you are both 90, she is gonna be grossing you out. The idea of “growing old together” is, to me at least, extremely unappealing. Now don’t get me wrong, I simply enjoy being alone, my longest relationship ever was 2 weeks, and I wouldn’t want to be married regardless; but the only way I could ever understand the appeal of a lifetime commitment is if you were both going to stay 25 until you were dead. Those old couples that everybody finds so cute, I just find depressing.

    re Game: I think PUA stuff is a dumb and basically comes down to numbers and how good looking and charismatic you are, but they are definitely right about the way that women will just gravitate towards alphas.

    My advice is that if you aren’t tall and/or super good looking (women don’t care if you are a 7 out of 10, the only way to impress women with your looks is to have 8/10 facial aesthetics minimum) to avoid clubs and internet dating.

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    • Replies: @iffen
    When you are both 90, she is gonna be grossing you out.

    You really need to work through this at a personal level, Greasy. When she's 90 and gross, you will be the same.
    , @Daniel Chieh

    Now don’t get me wrong, I simply enjoy being alone, my longest relationship ever was 2 weeks,
     
    Greasy min-maxing bangs per year.
    , @Guillaume Tell
    Hey Greasy I am sorry I confused American Beauty with Magnolia. Here is the scene:
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bbanWHx5AFQ

    Regarding old decrepit couples: my thoughts exactly. One aspect I can’t speak for of course is how it feels when one is in this situation. The human mind is very well done, in that it has astounding flexibility to adjust to all sorts of conditions. One example: when I was in my early 20s, the people of my parents’ generation seemed old to me and I would never have been attracted by a woman in her 40s. Nowadays it’s exactly the opposite: I find the 20-something beauties dull and unappealing whereas nothing turns me on like a hot woman in her mid-40s, preferably married of course.

    But overall my current reasoning is that I won’t let myself become decrepit and pathetically useless. I am not sure yet about the modalities (Eskimo-style or forever entombment in a Sibrian hermitage) but aside from these implementation details, you get the idea. One aspect of Christianity that I have always had strong disagreement with, is its absolute prohibition of suicide. I think that it some circumstances, it is, to the contrary, the ultimate act of courage and freedom.

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  184. iffen says:
    @Talha
    I am completely incapable of talking about Game since I've only been with the woman that I've married. The one plus on my side is that my wife came pursuing me through one of our mutual teachers - so that's kind of cool.

    That's OK though, if non-Muslims want to be good at Game and figure out how to bed women easily, it's their business, they just shouldn't complain that there are then a lack of marriageable women around that aren't chaste...because, well - mathematics.

    There's no way Muslim fathers like me are going to let that stuff raise its head in our communities if we can help it. I followed the rules, I expect other young men to do the same.

    Peace.

    That’s OK though, if non-Muslims want to be good at Game and figure out how to bed women easily, it’s their business

    I call you on this, Talha. You can’t just stay in your Muslim bubble and not care about the nation as a whole.

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    • Replies: @Talha
    We are not our non-brother’s keeper. We have no obligation to apply Shariah on non-Muslim populations (we get blamed for being restrictive enough on them as it is). It is their choice. But that doesn’t mean I don’t care; which is why I’m giving our seeker-of-the-crown (SOTC from now on) advice on what I believe is beneficial for him, but I can’t control if he follows my advice nor am I obligated to.

    But I like you calling me out on this though, it means you consider me “your people” and I sincerely appreciate that.

    Peace.

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  185. @iffen
    I know you advocate a “Straussian” approach (that is lying about the true extent of one’s intentions)


    Isn't being crytic or esoteric different from lying?

    I agree, that’s not what Leo Strauss meant with his “esoteric” reading of texts (if I understand correctly it was more about truths supposedly hidden in texts due to censorship or because the author didn’t want to make those truths accessible to the masses – but I’ve never read Strauss, so I might be wrong). But Thorfinsson seems to use “Straussian” in the sense of “lying about one’s true programme”, so I went with that usage.

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  186. iffen says:
    @Daniel Chieh
    Yes, I also seduce women and believe that I always leave them better than I met them.

    I am not a narcissist.

    Yes, I also seduce women and believe that I always leave them better than I met them.

    I am not a narcissist.

    Stop it!

    Dan, do you ever stop and think about how few people are in a position to write comments that contain the words: “my redneck friend.”

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    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    Probably more if they were willing to reach out and get to know people. Some of the best people I know.
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  187. Talha says:
    @iffen
    That’s OK though, if non-Muslims want to be good at Game and figure out how to bed women easily, it’s their business


    I call you on this, Talha. You can't just stay in your Muslim bubble and not care about the nation as a whole.

    We are not our non-brother’s keeper. We have no obligation to apply Shariah on non-Muslim populations (we get blamed for being restrictive enough on them as it is). It is their choice. But that doesn’t mean I don’t care; which is why I’m giving our seeker-of-the-crown (SOTC from now on) advice on what I believe is beneficial for him, but I can’t control if he follows my advice nor am I obligated to.

    But I like you calling me out on this though, it means you consider me “your people” and I sincerely appreciate that.

    Peace.

    Read More
    • Replies: @iffen
    We are not our non-brother’s keeper.


    This is a problem vis-a-vis civic nationalism. I'm not asking for you to bring down a scimitar on their heads, just that if behavior is detrimental to society, it should be condemned. The fact that you come to it because of your religious belief is not crucial.
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  188. iffen says:
    @Daniil Adamov
    Not that I disagree with the post as a whole (it really does appear to be a necessary measure in the circumstances, and we will survive it), but what is wrong with being materialist? And what is so automatically right with being concerned with lofty nonmaterial nonsense? Wanting to live materially well is a worthy cause. If it is not and if being concerned with ideas and ideals is more important, then why do you dislike the Soviet Union so much? There was a lot of idealistic marching about too, back then, while selfishness and greed were at least publicly denounced.

    (Signed, a materialistic member of the younger generation.)

    And what is so automatically right with being concerned with lofty nonmaterial nonsense?

    Dude, you put your conclusion in there with your question. That won’t fly with this group.

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    • Replies: @Daniil Adamov
    It was a rhetorical question. The real question would be why he considers "materialism" to be in any way a bad thing - and how he manages to square this with his contempt for various transcendental supervalue-based ideologies like communism or Islam. Are they just the wrong transcendental supervalue-based ideologies, while some sort of ethnonationalist transhumanism is just right?

    And if it is wrong for us to be "materialist" in our thinking, then how is one to take his comments about the Soviet Union's comparative failure or Putin's relative success in providing for the populace materially? One would think that all of those concerns would be irrelevant if we mustn't be concerned with such lowly and selfish interests.

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  189. Mr. Hack says:
    @Thorfinnsson
    God I miss Sara.

    I don't even care anymore that she's old and has small tits.

    I want her to be with me.

    Glad to see that you took my advice, Thor’s son:

    Anything over a handful is a waste.

    :-)

    But if she’s married move on. Remember when your parents split up and what pain that has caused you your whole life? Perhaps, she has kids too that want her to stick around with Daddy?…

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  190. iffen says:
    @Greasy William
    Tom Cruise was in American Beauty?

    What I have never understood about marriage is, what happens when you aren't attracted to her anymore? When you are both 90, she is gonna be grossing you out. The idea of "growing old together" is, to me at least, extremely unappealing. Now don't get me wrong, I simply enjoy being alone, my longest relationship ever was 2 weeks, and I wouldn't want to be married regardless; but the only way I could ever understand the appeal of a lifetime commitment is if you were both going to stay 25 until you were dead. Those old couples that everybody finds so cute, I just find depressing.

    ...

    re Game: I think PUA stuff is a dumb and basically comes down to numbers and how good looking and charismatic you are, but they are definitely right about the way that women will just gravitate towards alphas.

    My advice is that if you aren't tall and/or super good looking (women don't care if you are a 7 out of 10, the only way to impress women with your looks is to have 8/10 facial aesthetics minimum) to avoid clubs and internet dating.

    When you are both 90, she is gonna be grossing you out.

    You really need to work through this at a personal level, Greasy. When she’s 90 and gross, you will be the same.

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    • Agree: Talha
    • Replies: @Talha
    Gravity doesn’t discriminate.

    Peace.
    , @Greasy William
    so basically you're saying, "yeah she'll be disgusting but by that point you will be to so you need to just take what you can get."

    Why is being alone worse than being with somebody gross?
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  191. Talha says:
    @iffen
    When you are both 90, she is gonna be grossing you out.

    You really need to work through this at a personal level, Greasy. When she's 90 and gross, you will be the same.

    Gravity doesn’t discriminate.

    Peace.

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  192. Brutus says:
    @Thorfinnsson
    I believe she talks to both her daughters on the telephone daily, so that seems likely.

    But if nothing else perhaps I can avert her becoming a burden on her daughters in the future.

    If she increases her 401(k) contribution to 20% of her paycheck and works until age 70 she can have $15,000 in retirement income annually without drawing down the principal. That goes a long way here, especially when you own your home outright.

    [AK: Redacted].

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    • Troll: German_reader
    • Replies: @Guillaume Tell
    Merely wishing that someone be tortured/executed by a sub-human POS that should have been put to death long ago, as the one you mentioned (whose name I don't even want to write in order to not degrade my keyboard), immediately qualifies you for the title of sick bastard. Go away.
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  193. @iffen
    When you are both 90, she is gonna be grossing you out.

    You really need to work through this at a personal level, Greasy. When she's 90 and gross, you will be the same.

    so basically you’re saying, “yeah she’ll be disgusting but by that point you will be to so you need to just take what you can get.”

    Why is being alone worse than being with somebody gross?

    Read More
    • Replies: @iffen
    There are many more important things in life other than personal happiness.

    Happiness is highly over-rated in any case.
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  194. iffen says:
    @Talha
    We are not our non-brother’s keeper. We have no obligation to apply Shariah on non-Muslim populations (we get blamed for being restrictive enough on them as it is). It is their choice. But that doesn’t mean I don’t care; which is why I’m giving our seeker-of-the-crown (SOTC from now on) advice on what I believe is beneficial for him, but I can’t control if he follows my advice nor am I obligated to.

    But I like you calling me out on this though, it means you consider me “your people” and I sincerely appreciate that.

    Peace.

    We are not our non-brother’s keeper.

    This is a problem vis-a-vis civic nationalism. I’m not asking for you to bring down a scimitar on their heads, just that if behavior is detrimental to society, it should be condemned. The fact that you come to it because of your religious belief is not crucial.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    Ok - hell yeah, it’s detrimental behavior and if other citizens of the US bring about ways (even legal) to curb it universally, I will fully support them.

    I personally feel the first thing we should go after, that is massively detrimental on this front, is porn. It is seriously destroying families. Iceland might show us how it’s done in the West:
    https://www.antarcticajournal.com/iceland-internet-porn-ban/

    Peace.
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  195. Talha says:
    @iffen
    We are not our non-brother’s keeper.


    This is a problem vis-a-vis civic nationalism. I'm not asking for you to bring down a scimitar on their heads, just that if behavior is detrimental to society, it should be condemned. The fact that you come to it because of your religious belief is not crucial.

    Ok – hell yeah, it’s detrimental behavior and if other citizens of the US bring about ways (even legal) to curb it universally, I will fully support them.

    I personally feel the first thing we should go after, that is massively detrimental on this front, is porn. It is seriously destroying families. Iceland might show us how it’s done in the West:

    https://www.antarcticajournal.com/iceland-internet-porn-ban/

    Peace.

    Read More
    • Replies: @iffen
    I agree with you, but copt to hypocrisy.

    For a long time I have thought that our “free speech” should only apply to political speech and not commercial (porn) speech. I have never been able to sort through a way to separate the two.
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  196. iffen says:
    @Greasy William
    so basically you're saying, "yeah she'll be disgusting but by that point you will be to so you need to just take what you can get."

    Why is being alone worse than being with somebody gross?

    There are many more important things in life other than personal happiness.

    Happiness is highly over-rated in any case.

    Read More
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  197. iffen says:
    @Talha
    Ok - hell yeah, it’s detrimental behavior and if other citizens of the US bring about ways (even legal) to curb it universally, I will fully support them.

    I personally feel the first thing we should go after, that is massively detrimental on this front, is porn. It is seriously destroying families. Iceland might show us how it’s done in the West:
    https://www.antarcticajournal.com/iceland-internet-porn-ban/

    Peace.

    I agree with you, but copt to hypocrisy.

    For a long time I have thought that our “free speech” should only apply to political speech and not commercial (porn) speech. I have never been able to sort through a way to separate the two.

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  198. @Brutus
    [AK: Redacted].

    Merely wishing that someone be tortured/executed by a sub-human POS that should have been put to death long ago, as the one you mentioned (whose name I don’t even want to write in order to not degrade my keyboard), immediately qualifies you for the title of sick bastard. Go away.

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  199. AaronB says:
    @iffen
    I am going to be reading your posts more closely, AB.

    Life is a serious of transitions.

    Deep.

    It is deep :)

    Things can’t be viewed isolated, in the abstract, but as they relate to other things. Something may be a positive sign in one context but a negative in another.

    Alas, I sometimes fear I am not understood on this site!

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    • Replies: @German_reader

    Alas, I sometimes fear I am not understood on this site!
     
    Pearls before swine! Maybe you should try to find a more receptive audience somewhere else, we're obviously not deserving of your profound wisdom.
    , @utu

    Alas, I sometimes fear I am not understood on this site!
     
    Why, should you fear it? It is a very good thing to be not understood. It all depends on context, right? People may understand more by not understanding. Not understanding is actually understanding. By fearing this or that you show strange attachment to one sidedness of reality while by embracing all of it will liberate you. You will no longer crave to be understood or not understood. Maybe you will even shut up.
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  200. @AaronB
    It is deep :)

    Things can't be viewed isolated, in the abstract, but as they relate to other things. Something may be a positive sign in one context but a negative in another.

    Alas, I sometimes fear I am not understood on this site!

    Alas, I sometimes fear I am not understood on this site!

    Pearls before swine! Maybe you should try to find a more receptive audience somewhere else, we’re obviously not deserving of your profound wisdom.

    Read More
    • Agree: Guillaume Tell
    • LOL: Greasy William
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  201. utu says:
    @AaronB
    It is deep :)

    Things can't be viewed isolated, in the abstract, but as they relate to other things. Something may be a positive sign in one context but a negative in another.

    Alas, I sometimes fear I am not understood on this site!

    Alas, I sometimes fear I am not understood on this site!

    Why, should you fear it? It is a very good thing to be not understood. It all depends on context, right? People may understand more by not understanding. Not understanding is actually understanding. By fearing this or that you show strange attachment to one sidedness of reality while by embracing all of it will liberate you. You will no longer crave to be understood or not understood. Maybe you will even shut up.

    Read More
    • Agree: ussr andy
    • LOL: reiner Tor
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  202. @iffen

    Yes, I also seduce women and believe that I always leave them better than I met them.

    I am not a narcissist.
     

    Stop it!

    Dan, do you ever stop and think about how few people are in a position to write comments that contain the words: "my redneck friend."

    Probably more if they were willing to reach out and get to know people. Some of the best people I know.

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    • Replies: @iffen
    Probably more if they were willing to reach out and get to know people.


    I think that I see a high initial barrier of distrust and non-acceptance. However, once that barrier is breached it seems to be complete, that is, you are either in or out, and if you are in, it is total. My interactions with non rednecks and other ethnic groups make me think that they hold some levels in reserve, they are more nuanced and make many distinctions among various interactions and situations, you could be in for "this" but not for "that."

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  203. AaronB says:

    I see I have angered the geriatric brigade :)

    Their time is up.

    We should be gentle and kind with them, while firmly escorting them outside the building.

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    • Replies: @German_reader

    I see I have angered the geriatric brigade
     
    I'm afraid the old people on Unz review like me are just unable to absorb your lessons of wisdom, we're too set in our ways, so your noble effort is sadly wasted on us. Maybe you should seek more promising grounds for your spiritual mission and transfer yourself to one of those sites where the young congregate...how about /pol/? I'm sure the young enthusiasts there will eagerly and gratefully accept your spiritual nourishment.
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  204. @Greasy William
    Tom Cruise was in American Beauty?

    What I have never understood about marriage is, what happens when you aren't attracted to her anymore? When you are both 90, she is gonna be grossing you out. The idea of "growing old together" is, to me at least, extremely unappealing. Now don't get me wrong, I simply enjoy being alone, my longest relationship ever was 2 weeks, and I wouldn't want to be married regardless; but the only way I could ever understand the appeal of a lifetime commitment is if you were both going to stay 25 until you were dead. Those old couples that everybody finds so cute, I just find depressing.

    ...

    re Game: I think PUA stuff is a dumb and basically comes down to numbers and how good looking and charismatic you are, but they are definitely right about the way that women will just gravitate towards alphas.

    My advice is that if you aren't tall and/or super good looking (women don't care if you are a 7 out of 10, the only way to impress women with your looks is to have 8/10 facial aesthetics minimum) to avoid clubs and internet dating.

    Now don’t get me wrong, I simply enjoy being alone, my longest relationship ever was 2 weeks,

    Greasy min-maxing bangs per year.

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  205. @AaronB
    I see I have angered the geriatric brigade :)

    Their time is up.

    We should be gentle and kind with them, while firmly escorting them outside the building.

    I see I have angered the geriatric brigade

    I’m afraid the old people on Unz review like me are just unable to absorb your lessons of wisdom, we’re too set in our ways, so your noble effort is sadly wasted on us. Maybe you should seek more promising grounds for your spiritual mission and transfer yourself to one of those sites where the young congregate…how about /pol/? I’m sure the young enthusiasts there will eagerly and gratefully accept your spiritual nourishment.

    Read More
    • Replies: @AaronB
    I would GR, but you need me - more than anyone here. I will not abandon my duty to you. We shall spiritually uplift you kicking and screaming if need be. You will be an idealist before this is over. Your gloom and pessimism will dissipate like cobwebs in the wind.

    And utu, dear little utu, how can I make you happy? Is there anything I can do for you? Know that you are always in my thoughts and my compassion does not forget you - being a cantankerous old man and a swamp dweller who tries to drag people down, I understand it. But it's not the true you. I see deeper. Life is disappointing for all of us - that is not a reason to despair. It is a spiritual battle, utu - fight it, and you will win.
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  206. AaronB says:
    @German_reader

    I see I have angered the geriatric brigade
     
    I'm afraid the old people on Unz review like me are just unable to absorb your lessons of wisdom, we're too set in our ways, so your noble effort is sadly wasted on us. Maybe you should seek more promising grounds for your spiritual mission and transfer yourself to one of those sites where the young congregate...how about /pol/? I'm sure the young enthusiasts there will eagerly and gratefully accept your spiritual nourishment.

    I would GR, but you need me – more than anyone here. I will not abandon my duty to you. We shall spiritually uplift you kicking and screaming if need be. You will be an idealist before this is over. Your gloom and pessimism will dissipate like cobwebs in the wind.

    And utu, dear little utu, how can I make you happy? Is there anything I can do for you? Know that you are always in my thoughts and my compassion does not forget you – being a cantankerous old man and a swamp dweller who tries to drag people down, I understand it. But it’s not the true you. I see deeper. Life is disappointing for all of us – that is not a reason to despair. It is a spiritual battle, utu – fight it, and you will win.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anon

    you need me
     
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sz7gr4hSkNQ
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  207. Anon[298] • Disclaimer says:
    @iffen
    The best defense against abusive men is angry brothers and protective fathers.


    Not every female will have these. How about a community and society with angry and protective males?

    You don’t want “males” “protecting” women they would like to sleep with.

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  208. dfordoom says: • Website
    @German_reader

    and fund a serious GWAS study on noblesse oblige. I think that its dying out can explain a lot about our condition today.
     
    Did noblesse oblige ever really exist? I'm not sure it was the predominant sentiment among American capitalists in previous eras, e.g. in the Gilded age when they had their hired goons gun down workers on strike.
    Part of the explanation surely must be that Western capitalists were somewhat restrained in what they could do as long as the big bad commie empire existed (though this doesn't mean communism was a good thing).
    I agree with you that it could be interesting if Ron Unz did something about this issue.

    Part of the explanation surely must be that Western capitalists were somewhat restrained in what they could do as long as the big bad commie empire existed (though this doesn’t mean communism was a good thing).

    Agreed. The big bad commie empire was a necessary evil. It was a useful reminder to capitalists that if they went too far the huddled masses might actually rise up and that would mean capitalists being lined up against the wall and shot.

    It’s a very healthy thing for capitalists to be lined up against the wall and shot on a fairly regular basis.

    In fact it’s a very healthy thing for ruling classes in general to face the possibility of being hanged from lamp-posts. It’s necessary for a viable political and economic alternative to be seen to exist, as it did in the days of the Soviet Union. It doesn’t have to be a wonderful alternative, as long as it actually exists it will serve its purpose of preventing ruling classes from becoming the sort of selfish short-sighted vicious amoral conniving scum that our current western ruling classes have become.

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    • Agree: utu
    • Replies: @iffen
    It’s a very healthy thing for capitalists to be lined up against the wall and shot on a fairly regular basis.


    If R. Unz would come through with the coins and fund the GWAS study on the noblesse oblige trait we could save the "good" ones.


    Also, consider using the guillotine, it is much more humane.

    , @Anatoly Karlin

    It’s necessary for a viable political and economic alternative to be seen to exist, as it did in the days of the Soviet Union.
     
    Except, well, for the people who actually have to live in those experiments.
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  209. Anon[298] • Disclaimer says:
    @AaronB
    I would GR, but you need me - more than anyone here. I will not abandon my duty to you. We shall spiritually uplift you kicking and screaming if need be. You will be an idealist before this is over. Your gloom and pessimism will dissipate like cobwebs in the wind.

    And utu, dear little utu, how can I make you happy? Is there anything I can do for you? Know that you are always in my thoughts and my compassion does not forget you - being a cantankerous old man and a swamp dweller who tries to drag people down, I understand it. But it's not the true you. I see deeper. Life is disappointing for all of us - that is not a reason to despair. It is a spiritual battle, utu - fight it, and you will win.

    you need me

    Read More
    • LOL: AaronB
    • Replies: @AaronB
    That's how I feel. They just don't know it yet.
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  210. AaronB says:
    @Anon

    you need me
     
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sz7gr4hSkNQ

    That’s how I feel. They just don’t know it yet.

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  211. @Daniel Chieh

    One solution would be to institute paternalism on the part of the wider community.
     
    You said that you were a manager. You have a problem in your department. Do you?

    1) Attempt to isolate the problem and solve it through a minimum number of changes.

    2)Attempt to change the entire company culture.

    You said that you believed that the most cost-effective way to invest in health care is in preventive treatment(which is not the same as always giving medicine to a patient). I believe in the same principle with regards to cultural habits and norms.

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    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    A fair point, I concede.
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  212. @The Big Red Scary

    University diploma is an important status symbol in Russia
     
    Russia is not the only country suffering from this disease.

    Most white collar jobs won’t even consider a candidate without a diploma.
     
    For the traditional highly skilled professions (medicine, law, and so on), you train in special schools and receive qualification after taking exams. While the system for such professional training could no doubt be made more efficient, I am not suggesting to completely abolish it.

    For most other white collar jobs, there is no reason not to be learning on the job. University is just a drawn out and expensive signaling exercise. Expensive to the state, which has to pay for it, and expensive to the individual in terms of lost opportunities (for becoming an adult, making a living, forming a family). Given a choice between someone who has made a more expensive signal and someone who hasn't, the employer is of course going to go for the more expensive signal. That's one reason why the universities have to be abolished, not just disincentivized.

    The SAT, before the 1995 so-called “re-centering”, was closely matched to IQ so that was useful. Fifty years ago, college admission was truly a sign of ~115 IQ or above, which puts you at the top 15% of the population. However, as admissions have increased, the correlation with IQ and college attendence has shrunk.

    I think your proposal are modest but reasonable. Intelligence affects everything, even menial job performance (as Gwern has pointed out in his recent book review of McNamara’s experiments in Vietnam). Of course, more is required than intelligence to be successful in work. Conscientiousness is a key trait aside from intelligence which is highly predictive of performance and AFAIK it is harder to measure well.

    The idea behind college was initially good but it has lost its original utility for the vast many. The question that remains is if the political cost required of reforming such a system is even possible in a democracy, where it has become deeply embedded within striving and aspiring broad layers of the population, so much so where some have even begun to see their own identity as synonymous with having gone to college (and consequently, so must their children, out of sheer social pressure and conformity). People hate when someone take away what they desire most, even if it is bad/unnecessary for them.

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    • Replies: @The Big Red Scary

    People hate when someone take away what they desire most, even if it is bad/unnecessary for them.
     
    Indeed. Before abolishing the universities, one has to first start by promoting an alternative as being higher status. The most elite alternative would be something like the Thiel Fellowship: http://thielfellowship.org/. A more modest alternative would be something like the code academies run by big IT companies. In Russia, there is the Yandex Academy: https://academy.yandex.ru/.

    Once you have convinced people that university is for drones like Bertie Wooster and real men get down to real work, you can transfer funding for student positions at the universities to apprenticeships in industry (including culture) and research institutes.

    Conscientiousness is a key trait aside from intelligence
     
    Certainly. So for placement in apprenticeships, give people an SAT like exam to check if they are intelligent, literate, and numerate. The apprenticeships themselves will then select for conscientiousness.
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  213. dfordoom says: • Website
    @Thorfinnsson
    Why do you assume anything radical is unrealistic?

    If we seize state power we can do anything.

    And yes, women absolutely must be controlled.

    I don't mean to be rude but do you have much experience with women?

    You yourself admit that modern societies completely fail in this aspect. Do you think this is a coincidence?

    Why do you assume anything radical is unrealistic?

    In fact you could argue that our situation is so desperate that only radical solutions are realistic.

    White sharia might turn out to be more realistic than the kinds of pathetic half-measures that respectable conservatives are inclined to support. Your proposals seem pretty sound to me.

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  214. @iffen
    My impression is that the idea was to throw medical care at Africans


    It's rather difficult to make a case against simple vacination programs.

    They lead to a population explosion of horribly undernourished people.

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    • Replies: @iffen

    It’s rather difficult to make a case against simple vaccination programs.

    They lead to a population explosion of horribly undernourished people.
     

    It’s rather difficult to make a case against simple food delivery programs to starving people.
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  215. @Guillaume Tell
    I think we have similar weaknesses.

    By the way I have been married for almost a quarter of a century, and except for a couple of missteps during the first years of marriage, have not been screwing around. But it is very difficult. I love women, am extremely attracted by them, and have on average quite a bit of success with them as a result of my physique and status. In a way that really is a scourge. By the way I truly love my wife who is very pretty, but that does not prevent my mind from racing furiously whenever in contact with a beauty. I think it’s genes, what can I do? My father was the same and my paternal grandfather too.

    I did not know there was this maxim in “the Game”. But it really is Catholic/Orthodox you know (judge people by their deeds, not their words).

    Which reminds me that you never answered an earlier question of mine, where I was asking you if you could talk a bit about this “Game”. I know nothing about it other that seeing Tom Cruise in American Beauty as some kind of instructor at “Game” seminars of sorts. I would really like to read your insights about it.

    I am not sure if Mediterranean populations require this lesson. To you it may just be common sense?

    I told German_reader that ultimately Game comes down to two lessons.

    The first is that men and women are fundamentally different.

    The second is that to get women, you must work to become an attractive man.

    There are some tricks beyond this, but they’re really just lines and jokes. They aren’t a substitute for being an attractive man.

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    • Replies: @Guillaume Tell
    These two points, albeit self-evident for me, may very well be no so evident, or even worse, completely foreign to teenage boys of today that are brought up within the liberal consensus.

    Being attractive has of course many sides to it, the physique being the most obvious but certainly not the most important in the long run. The ability to provide and support is, I believe, the main one, especially when you are interested in attracting good mothers for your offspring. This might not be that important of course when was it sought is brief encounters with stunning beauties.

    I think you said somewhere that you were not over yet with your parents' divorce. I think nobody ever can really be, because it's totally unnatural for a child to accept that his two co-generators may not love each other anymore. By the way my own parents divorced almost 40 years ago now -- and I am still quite pissed at them for that.
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  216. @Talha

    Why pass it up?
     
    Apparently you have not read of the punishments that await adulterers in the Afterlife as explicated by hadith.

    That's why I would avoid with a ten-foot pole - not because I am a eunuch.

    Also, my teachers have mentioned (and they have the experience of counseling thousands of families and young men and women all together) that what goes around comes around. Don't be surprised if you are eventually cuckolded if you cuckold another man.

    I have your best interests in mind; avoid like the plague.

    Peace.

    As German_reader said, I am not a Mohammedan.

    But I get similar lessons from Christians.

    Usually these lessons come from men who can’t pull.

    But not always.

    And there is something to it.

    I don’t allow women to have power over me.

    Or do I?

    And no, I would not be surprised to be cuckolded. My default assumption is that all women are whores. That means no one is immune.

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  217. What do you guys think of organizing a Karlin conference for all of us? Perhaps expanded to Steve Sailer readers as well?

    Would we do it in America or Europe?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Guillaume Tell
    Strong agreement here.

    I suggest Spain because it is one of the few remaining free countries in Europe. We won’t be jailed just for saying things.

    A nice alternative is Andorra.

    I could help with the logistics.
    , @iffen
    What do you guys think of organizing a Karlin conference for all of us?

    I have shot my mouth off with insults too many times, and I am too old to kick ass or get mine kicked, otherwise it sounds like fun.

    What we need is an adjacent chat room to the comment section. A good computer whiz could likely make that available with little effort, although it would have to be one that didn't dole out agree/disagree tabs like an old maid niggardly handing out cookies to the neighbor kids.
    , @Anatoly Karlin
    I mentioned the idea of organizing an Unz.com conference, which I have heard suggested a number of times, to Ron Unz in one of his recent posts:

    http://www.unz.com/runz/why-the-american-conservative-purged-its-own-publisher/#comment-2350625

    Definitely something I'd support and would attend, though obviously I can't contribute materially, and have no direct experience of organizing large conferences.
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  218. @iffen
    And what is so automatically right with being concerned with lofty nonmaterial nonsense?


    Dude, you put your conclusion in there with your question. That won't fly with this group.

    It was a rhetorical question. The real question would be why he considers “materialism” to be in any way a bad thing – and how he manages to square this with his contempt for various transcendental supervalue-based ideologies like communism or Islam. Are they just the wrong transcendental supervalue-based ideologies, while some sort of ethnonationalist transhumanism is just right?

    And if it is wrong for us to be “materialist” in our thinking, then how is one to take his comments about the Soviet Union’s comparative failure or Putin’s relative success in providing for the populace materially? One would think that all of those concerns would be irrelevant if we mustn’t be concerned with such lowly and selfish interests.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Felix Keverich
    You seem to be under impression that people cared about ideology in USSR. They didn't. It was a deeply cynical society, built on lies. In the end, communist elites sold out Soviet Union because they wanted to convert their power into material wealth. It doesn't get more materialistic and selfish than that.

    That being said there is nothing wrong with materialism and a desire to "live well". The issue here is wanting to live well at others expense, and feeling very entitled about it. It's this 'entitlement mentality' that deserves contempt. The people, who are going to protest against the pension reform deserve our contempt, even more so than, say, LGBT activists.
    , @iffen
    It was a rhetorical question.


    Sorry, you went over my head.

    As for AK, I am pretty sure he strongly believes that Russia would have developed materially even more so without the burden of communism.
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  219. @The Big Red Scary
    I’m American but am rather unlikely to live again in the US, which is why I asked the question about currencies. My material assets and income are denominated in rubles, and currently my savings are too. Buying dollars is a nuisance, but it might be a good idea to have some financial assets in dollars. In another few years I should be able to put away 25,000 USD a year (at the current exchange rate).

    I’m American but am rather unlikely to live again in the US, which is why I asked the question about currencies.

    American investment advise will be useless to you then.

    I suggest you buy into some ПИФ:

    https://www.alfacapital.ru/individual/pifs/opifo_akbond/ — Eurobonds if you want to hedge against currency risks.

    https://www.alfacapital.ru/individual/pifs/opif_akop/ — Russian bonds if you just want a low-risk way to make money with compound interest.

    Note that the vast majority of Russians will invest into real estate instead. (Requires that you have kids and will only pay off in 30-plus years.)

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  220. @Thorfinnsson
    Relax. Most women are whores. Why pass it up?

    But when you lock one down, isolate and protect her.

    Relax. Most women are whores. Why pass it up?

    They’re only whores because some cad in her youth “didn’t pass it up”. You made them whores.

    But when you lock one down, isolate and protect her.

    Sorry, but you will never ‘lock one down’. Good women don’t associate with males who associate with whores.

    Game is the male equivalent of the eat-pray-love catlady. Don’t get sucked into the taripit.

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  221. How did this thread devolve into discussion of Thorfinnsson’s romantic life??

    You know, I always get sceptical when people start bragging about their wealth and/or sexual prowess on the internet. For someone, who is allegedly a “successful businessman” with 20+ past sex partners, Thorfinnsson spends w-way too much time on this website.

    Read More
    • Agree: Mr. Hack
    • Replies: @utu

    spends w-way too much time on this website
     
    Heavy presence on internet does not impede onanism.
    , @German_reader

    How did this thread devolve into discussion of Thorfinnsson’s romantic life??
     
    Probably my fault, I shouldn't have asked him about "game". Sorry!
    , @Anatoly Karlin
    I can't vouch for Thorfinnsson's game prowess, but the wealth part is accurate.
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  222. utu says:
    @Felix Keverich
    How did this thread devolve into discussion of Thorfinnsson's romantic life??

    You know, I always get sceptical when people start bragging about their wealth and/or sexual prowess on the internet. For someone, who is allegedly a "successful businessman" with 20+ past sex partners, Thorfinnsson spends w-way too much time on this website.

    spends w-way too much time on this website

    Heavy presence on internet does not impede onanism.

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  223. @Thorfinnsson
    Are you impressed with women in modern societies? Have you seen how fat they are?

    How many women have you been with?

    Anyone with a number under 20 is incompetent to discuss this.

    How many women have you been with?

    Anyone with a number under 20 is incompetent to discuss this.

    That’s like saying that some feminist understands male psychology because she’s had 300 negro dicks during one-night-stands.

    Like I said: Game is just the male version of feminism. If you want to die alone and be cremated by your state’s social services, then do everything Game tells you to.

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  224. @Daniil Adamov
    It was a rhetorical question. The real question would be why he considers "materialism" to be in any way a bad thing - and how he manages to square this with his contempt for various transcendental supervalue-based ideologies like communism or Islam. Are they just the wrong transcendental supervalue-based ideologies, while some sort of ethnonationalist transhumanism is just right?

    And if it is wrong for us to be "materialist" in our thinking, then how is one to take his comments about the Soviet Union's comparative failure or Putin's relative success in providing for the populace materially? One would think that all of those concerns would be irrelevant if we mustn't be concerned with such lowly and selfish interests.

    You seem to be under impression that people cared about ideology in USSR. They didn’t. It was a deeply cynical society, built on lies. In the end, communist elites sold out Soviet Union because they wanted to convert their power into material wealth. It doesn’t get more materialistic and selfish than that.

    That being said there is nothing wrong with materialism and a desire to “live well”. The issue here is wanting to live well at others expense, and feeling very entitled about it. It’s this ‘entitlement mentality’ that deserves contempt. The people, who are going to protest against the pension reform deserve our contempt, even more so than, say, LGBT activists.

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    • Agree: Anatoly Karlin
    • Replies: @iffen
    You seem to be under impression that people cared about ideology in USSR.

    It is hard to come up with an example of a group that cared more about ideology than did the Bolsheviks. American communists spied for Russia, German communists deserted and warned the Soviets about Barbarossa ( of course Stalin had them shot as he was prone to shoot the messenger).

    I think you are correct about the later days, it faded into a pure opportunistic scramble.
    , @German_reader

    The issue here is wanting to live well at others expense
     
    At the expense of the young.
    How are relations between the generations in Russia? Is AK with his contempt for "Sovok boomers" unusual or do many young people resent the older generations?
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  225. Medvedev says:
    @Thorfinnsson
    The solution to this is to turn pensions into defined-contribution accounts which are the private property of the contributor. Obviously this was not feasible when pensions were first introduced, but with today's financial markets there is no reason not to do so.

    Though I suppose financial markets in Russia are not yet sufficiently mature to entrust people's retirement savings to the market.

    In Western countries this is however a no-brainer.

    Another nice benefit of defined-contribution accounts is that when the pensioner dies, someone gets to inherit the money.

    In Western countries this is however a no-brainer.

    There is one huge problem with your thinking. Western model relies on a Ponzi scheme. That’s why you have ever-increasing stocks, housing and land prices.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Felix Keverich
    That's not necessarily true. Rising asset prices do not imply the existence of a ponzi scheme. However, forcing the entire population to buy equity, like Thorfinnsson proposes, WILL facilitate the growth of bubbles.
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  226. @Greasy William
    Tom Cruise was in American Beauty?

    What I have never understood about marriage is, what happens when you aren't attracted to her anymore? When you are both 90, she is gonna be grossing you out. The idea of "growing old together" is, to me at least, extremely unappealing. Now don't get me wrong, I simply enjoy being alone, my longest relationship ever was 2 weeks, and I wouldn't want to be married regardless; but the only way I could ever understand the appeal of a lifetime commitment is if you were both going to stay 25 until you were dead. Those old couples that everybody finds so cute, I just find depressing.

    ...

    re Game: I think PUA stuff is a dumb and basically comes down to numbers and how good looking and charismatic you are, but they are definitely right about the way that women will just gravitate towards alphas.

    My advice is that if you aren't tall and/or super good looking (women don't care if you are a 7 out of 10, the only way to impress women with your looks is to have 8/10 facial aesthetics minimum) to avoid clubs and internet dating.

    Hey Greasy I am sorry I confused American Beauty with Magnolia. Here is the scene:

    Regarding old decrepit couples: my thoughts exactly. One aspect I can’t speak for of course is how it feels when one is in this situation. The human mind is very well done, in that it has astounding flexibility to adjust to all sorts of conditions. One example: when I was in my early 20s, the people of my parents’ generation seemed old to me and I would never have been attracted by a woman in her 40s. Nowadays it’s exactly the opposite: I find the 20-something beauties dull and unappealing whereas nothing turns me on like a hot woman in her mid-40s, preferably married of course.

    But overall my current reasoning is that I won’t let myself become decrepit and pathetically useless. I am not sure yet about the modalities (Eskimo-style or forever entombment in a Sibrian hermitage) but aside from these implementation details, you get the idea. One aspect of Christianity that I have always had strong disagreement with, is its absolute prohibition of suicide. I think that it some circumstances, it is, to the contrary, the ultimate act of courage and freedom.

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    • Replies: @Seraphim
    Take heart! Already people find attractive women of 70! Of course, if your arrow is still able to shoot the apple. No one escapes decrepitude.
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  227. @Thorfinnsson
    What do you guys think of organizing a Karlin conference for all of us? Perhaps expanded to Steve Sailer readers as well?

    Would we do it in America or Europe?

    Strong agreement here.

    I suggest Spain because it is one of the few remaining free countries in Europe. We won’t be jailed just for saying things.

    A nice alternative is Andorra.

    I could help with the logistics.

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  228. @Medvedev

    In Western countries this is however a no-brainer.
     
    There is one huge problem with your thinking. Western model relies on a Ponzi scheme. That's why you have ever-increasing stocks, housing and land prices.

    That’s not necessarily true. Rising asset prices do not imply the existence of a ponzi scheme. However, forcing the entire population to buy equity, like Thorfinnsson proposes, WILL facilitate the growth of bubbles.

    Read More
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  229. JL says:
    @Thorfinnsson
    The first thing you need to do is maximize your tax advantages. It's free money.

    So that means maximizing 401(k), IRA, and HSA.

    Beyond that use a target date fund or robo-advisor so you don't need to think about it.

    He pays a flat income tax at a rate of 13%. As an American living abroad, unless he makes over $100,000 per year, he’s not liable for tax there. So 401(k), IRA, etc. are not applicable. Furthermore, investing as an American abroad is extremely complicated thanks to the convoluted tax code designed to catch evaders, while completely disregarding the interests of ex-pats.

    My advice to the Big Red Scary for maximizing tax advantages would be to conclude a брачный договор with his Russian wife and put all his assets in her name. If the investments are in his name, he could be taxed to the full extent in the US while simultaneously annulling his below-$100,000/year exemption.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Guillaume Tell
    A simpler option might be to formally renounce is US citizenship. If he does not intend to move back to the US ever, the US citizenship is a net liability nowadays.
    , @for-the-record
    As an American living abroad, unless he makes over $100,000 per year, he’s not liable for tax there

    The exemption is only for earned income. So for dividends, interest, capital gains, rental income, etc. he is liable for US tax, though to a certain extent this may be offset by foreign tax credits (but this is generally less than 100%).

    Also important to keep in mind that a substantial percentage of foreign "financial products" cannot legally be offered to US citizens.
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  230. iffen says:
    @dfordoom

    Part of the explanation surely must be that Western capitalists were somewhat restrained in what they could do as long as the big bad commie empire existed (though this doesn’t mean communism was a good thing).
     
    Agreed. The big bad commie empire was a necessary evil. It was a useful reminder to capitalists that if they went too far the huddled masses might actually rise up and that would mean capitalists being lined up against the wall and shot.

    It's a very healthy thing for capitalists to be lined up against the wall and shot on a fairly regular basis.

    In fact it's a very healthy thing for ruling classes in general to face the possibility of being hanged from lamp-posts. It's necessary for a viable political and economic alternative to be seen to exist, as it did in the days of the Soviet Union. It doesn't have to be a wonderful alternative, as long as it actually exists it will serve its purpose of preventing ruling classes from becoming the sort of selfish short-sighted vicious amoral conniving scum that our current western ruling classes have become.

    It’s a very healthy thing for capitalists to be lined up against the wall and shot on a fairly regular basis.

    If R. Unz would come through with the coins and fund the GWAS study on the noblesse oblige trait we could save the “good” ones.

    Also, consider using the guillotine, it is much more humane.

    Read More
    • Replies: @dfordoom

    If R. Unz would come through with the coins and fund the GWAS study on the noblesse oblige trait we could save the “good” ones.
     
    Good idea.

    Also, consider using the guillotine, it is much more humane.
     
    As long as the capitalists are liquidated I have no great problems with doing it humanely. I'm not a barbarian.
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  231. iffen says:
    @reiner Tor
    They lead to a population explosion of horribly undernourished people.

    It’s rather difficult to make a case against simple vaccination programs.

    They lead to a population explosion of horribly undernourished people.

    It’s rather difficult to make a case against simple food delivery programs to starving people.

    Read More
    • Replies: @DFH
    It's hard to make a case for more Africans
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  232. iffen says:
    @Thorfinnsson
    What do you guys think of organizing a Karlin conference for all of us? Perhaps expanded to Steve Sailer readers as well?

    Would we do it in America or Europe?

    What do you guys think of organizing a Karlin conference for all of us?

    I have shot my mouth off with insults too many times, and I am too old to kick ass or get mine kicked, otherwise it sounds like fun.

    What we need is an adjacent chat room to the comment section. A good computer whiz could likely make that available with little effort, although it would have to be one that didn’t dole out agree/disagree tabs like an old maid niggardly handing out cookies to the neighbor kids.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    I think we need to start organizing in meat space.

    How does Vegas sound to everyone?

    Or since we have more Euros here, where is the appropriate conference venue in Europe? Hanover?

    , @reiner Tor

    I am too old to kick ass or get mine kicked
     
    I highly doubt a meetup of commenters would be anything but friendly.

    Have you ever been to meetups of commenters from such online comment boards?
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  233. DFH says:
    @iffen

    It’s rather difficult to make a case against simple vaccination programs.

    They lead to a population explosion of horribly undernourished people.
     

    It’s rather difficult to make a case against simple food delivery programs to starving people.

    It’s hard to make a case for more Africans

    Read More
    • Replies: @iffen
    Governor Big Jim Folsom of Alabama, 1947-1951, 1955-1959, "Niggers is people too."
    , @iffen
    It’s hard to make a case for more Africans


    Are you saying that we shouldn't send surplus milk powder to starving children?

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  234. iffen says:
    @Felix Keverich
    You seem to be under impression that people cared about ideology in USSR. They didn't. It was a deeply cynical society, built on lies. In the end, communist elites sold out Soviet Union because they wanted to convert their power into material wealth. It doesn't get more materialistic and selfish than that.

    That being said there is nothing wrong with materialism and a desire to "live well". The issue here is wanting to live well at others expense, and feeling very entitled about it. It's this 'entitlement mentality' that deserves contempt. The people, who are going to protest against the pension reform deserve our contempt, even more so than, say, LGBT activists.

    You seem to be under impression that people cared about ideology in USSR.

    It is hard to come up with an example of a group that cared more about ideology than did the Bolsheviks. American communists spied for Russia, German communists deserted and warned the Soviets about Barbarossa ( of course Stalin had them shot as he was prone to shoot the messenger).

    I think you are correct about the later days, it faded into a pure opportunistic scramble.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Mitleser

    I think you are correct about the later days, it faded into a pure opportunistic scramble.
     

    The main thing that forced USSR on the road towards collapse is ideological stagnation inside the communist party. The political elite failed to adapt the official ideology to the changing social structure of the Soviet Union. Initially (immediately post-Revolution and in the 20s) Soviet communists were insanely progressive for their time but in the same time they ruled over a very conservative country, so the more progressive elements of the ideology were curtailed under Stalin mostly because it would be impossible to push for very hard and costly economic reforms at the same time with breaking up traditional society by force. So instead of enforcing the communism ideology on the whole country it was done mostly through education system gradually. Then the War happened which wiped significant portion of the most active members of the Communist party (communists constituted about 15% of the war losses while being less than 5% of the Soviet Union entire population) which again strengthened conservative elements inside the political elite as youngest members of the Party have far more chance to be killed for obvious reasons.

    As the result of all of that the majority of the elite of the Communist party was very much conservative in their nature by the end of 50s. They also became very much afraid of any ideological or even economical reform as such reform would require strong and independent leadership and the last person with such ability was Joseph Stalin which wasn't remembered fondly by Soviet bureaucracy. In fact every member of the elite who pushed for significant reform was removed from power (for example infamous Laverentiy Beria in his brief period being in power after Stalin's death actually advocated liberalization of the economy with increased role for small private business and keeping central planning mostly on the country or republic-wide level) by various means.

    In the same time no one really touched the educational system and it still attempted to produce proper communists with progressive views and desire to improve the system. But their aspirations were faced with growing conservatism of the higher ups. And as the top echelon of the Communist party held all real power in the Soviet Union there is no way for a new younger generation of communists to fight this conservatism. One party system with an enforced ban on fractions made sure of that. It is more or less how Soviet dissident movement started. In the beginning most of the Soviet dissidents were communists who turned outwards after being rejected and persecuted by their own leaders. And what alternatives existed outwards? Realistically - only the West, as other Communist alternatives were either under the tight control of Moscow like Warsaw pact or were China and Chinese model in the 60s was not very appealing to say the least. This is how the West became a shining city on the hill for the significant portion of the Soviet educated citizenry.

    How Soviet leadership reacted to the growing dissent within the ranks? Well, new Purge was inconceivable for them as the ghost of Stalin was right behind them, so they doubled down on conservatism in ideology and suppression of any opposition to it. And as princess Leia once told to Tarkin: "the more you tighten the grip, the more systems would slip through your fingers". Even the education became practically schizophrenic in its nature as they tried to teach an ideology progressive to its very core while also attempting to enforce an unquestioning dogmatism on the top of it. So dissatisfaction grew right within the Communist party itself. There is only so much bullshit a person can absorb without questioning the purpose of it.
     
    https://forums.spacebattles.com/posts/30459688/
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  235. iffen says:
    @DFH
    It's hard to make a case for more Africans

    Governor Big Jim Folsom of Alabama, 1947-1951, 1955-1959, “Niggers is people too.”

    Read More
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  236. iffen says:
    @Daniil Adamov
    It was a rhetorical question. The real question would be why he considers "materialism" to be in any way a bad thing - and how he manages to square this with his contempt for various transcendental supervalue-based ideologies like communism or Islam. Are they just the wrong transcendental supervalue-based ideologies, while some sort of ethnonationalist transhumanism is just right?

    And if it is wrong for us to be "materialist" in our thinking, then how is one to take his comments about the Soviet Union's comparative failure or Putin's relative success in providing for the populace materially? One would think that all of those concerns would be irrelevant if we mustn't be concerned with such lowly and selfish interests.

    It was a rhetorical question.

    Sorry, you went over my head.

    As for AK, I am pretty sure he strongly believes that Russia would have developed materially even more so without the burden of communism.

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  237. @Thulean Friend
    You said that you believed that the most cost-effective way to invest in health care is in preventive treatment(which is not the same as always giving medicine to a patient). I believe in the same principle with regards to cultural habits and norms.

    A fair point, I concede.

    Read More
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  238. @JL
    He pays a flat income tax at a rate of 13%. As an American living abroad, unless he makes over $100,000 per year, he's not liable for tax there. So 401(k), IRA, etc. are not applicable. Furthermore, investing as an American abroad is extremely complicated thanks to the convoluted tax code designed to catch evaders, while completely disregarding the interests of ex-pats.

    My advice to the Big Red Scary for maximizing tax advantages would be to conclude a брачный договор with his Russian wife and put all his assets in her name. If the investments are in his name, he could be taxed to the full extent in the US while simultaneously annulling his below-$100,000/year exemption.

    A simpler option might be to formally renounce is US citizenship. If he does not intend to move back to the US ever, the US citizenship is a net liability nowadays.

    Read More
    • Replies: @The Big Red Scary
    Certainly it's a liability, but so far I have workarounds and the formal process of renunciation is expensive (over ten times more than renewing your passport).
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  239. @Felix Keverich
    How did this thread devolve into discussion of Thorfinnsson's romantic life??

    You know, I always get sceptical when people start bragging about their wealth and/or sexual prowess on the internet. For someone, who is allegedly a "successful businessman" with 20+ past sex partners, Thorfinnsson spends w-way too much time on this website.

    How did this thread devolve into discussion of Thorfinnsson’s romantic life??

    Probably my fault, I shouldn’t have asked him about “game”. Sorry!

    Read More
    • Replies: @Guillaume Tell
    Please dot not apologize. I think that from this OT question, ensued a discussion on a topic that is in fact profound under an apparently superficial tone: namely, how is a young man to think about his relations with the fair sex, in a world where men/women relations have been all but destroyed by sexual degeneracy, feminism, faggotry, and assorted evils.

    Thorfinnsson's candid exposition of his suffering, still ongoing, because of his parents' divorce is not only touching, it also goes straight to the heart of the matter. The destruction of the family leads to successful young men viewing women as whores. Don't blame him, he is just the messenger here.
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  240. @Felix Keverich
    You seem to be under impression that people cared about ideology in USSR. They didn't. It was a deeply cynical society, built on lies. In the end, communist elites sold out Soviet Union because they wanted to convert their power into material wealth. It doesn't get more materialistic and selfish than that.

    That being said there is nothing wrong with materialism and a desire to "live well". The issue here is wanting to live well at others expense, and feeling very entitled about it. It's this 'entitlement mentality' that deserves contempt. The people, who are going to protest against the pension reform deserve our contempt, even more so than, say, LGBT activists.

    The issue here is wanting to live well at others expense

    At the expense of the young.
    How are relations between the generations in Russia? Is AK with his contempt for “Sovok boomers” unusual or do many young people resent the older generations?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Dmitry
    The main difference is, on average, young people are more "liberal", sophisticated and internationally knowledgeable compared to older generations.

    But comparisons between countries are not perfect, because the history is very different, and the interpretation of even the same ideologies can be too. And differences themselves are where the interesting are.

    A metaphor is that Russia's watch is not very synchronized with the world clock, or at least the Western watches.

    But is it just lack of synchronization - if you ask when it is 1917 in Petrograd, if it 1789, or 1848, or 1871 in Paris? It's not only going around the same race-track at different speeds, but rather going round at different speeds, a different race-track, with similar features, but with its own bend and corners, so that a driver on one track cannot learn the corners on his own track from observing another driver, even if he is more advanced through his own course, on a different track - and although the drivers on the less advanced track are commonly making this mistake exactly.

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  241. @German_reader

    How did this thread devolve into discussion of Thorfinnsson’s romantic life??
     
    Probably my fault, I shouldn't have asked him about "game". Sorry!

    Please dot not apologize. I think that from this OT question, ensued a discussion on a topic that is in fact profound under an apparently superficial tone: namely, how is a young man to think about his relations with the fair sex, in a world where men/women relations have been all but destroyed by sexual degeneracy, feminism, faggotry, and assorted evils.

    Thorfinnsson’s candid exposition of his suffering, still ongoing, because of his parents’ divorce is not only touching, it also goes straight to the heart of the matter. The destruction of the family leads to successful young men viewing women as whores. Don’t blame him, he is just the messenger here.

    Read More
    • Replies: @iffen
    The destruction of the family leads to successful young men viewing women as whores. Don’t blame him, he is just the messenger here.

    Stop making excuses for him. He is obviously smart enough to overcome some unfortunate facts of his personal life and place them in a more rational perspective. More destructive than the faggotry and the general poz (indeed, it is part and parcel of it) is the wallowing in self-pity, endless claims of the "disadvantaged,” the clamor for excuses , the endless claims to “special” victimization and the vicious pursuit of someone to blame.
    , @Thorfinnsson
    I appreciate the kind remarks, but do not consider myself as someone who is suffering. My life is quite good and indeed I am blessed.

    I also accept the criticism of others such as iffen who raise good points about my behavior.

    Back on topic... https://www.reuters.com/article/us-japan-retirement/japan-short-of-workers-eyes-hiking-optional-pension-age-beyond-70-idUSKCN1G106L
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  242. iffen says:
    @Guillaume Tell
    Please dot not apologize. I think that from this OT question, ensued a discussion on a topic that is in fact profound under an apparently superficial tone: namely, how is a young man to think about his relations with the fair sex, in a world where men/women relations have been all but destroyed by sexual degeneracy, feminism, faggotry, and assorted evils.

    Thorfinnsson's candid exposition of his suffering, still ongoing, because of his parents' divorce is not only touching, it also goes straight to the heart of the matter. The destruction of the family leads to successful young men viewing women as whores. Don't blame him, he is just the messenger here.

    The destruction of the family leads to successful young men viewing women as whores. Don’t blame him, he is just the messenger here.

    Stop making excuses for him. He is obviously smart enough to overcome some unfortunate facts of his personal life and place them in a more rational perspective. More destructive than the faggotry and the general poz (indeed, it is part and parcel of it) is the wallowing in self-pity, endless claims of the “disadvantaged,” the clamor for excuses , the endless claims to “special” victimization and the vicious pursuit of someone to blame.

    Read More
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  243. iffen says:
    @DFH
    It's hard to make a case for more Africans

    It’s hard to make a case for more Africans

    Are you saying that we shouldn’t send surplus milk powder to starving children?

    Read More
    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    The question is loaded. The end result of it will be even more starving children. I used to send money to some charities saving third world children, but I no longer do that, and the reason is that I don’t know if its end result won’t be an increase in human suffering. Actually, I’m sure that the end result will be even more suffering.
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  244. iffen says:
    @Daniel Chieh
    Probably more if they were willing to reach out and get to know people. Some of the best people I know.

    Probably more if they were willing to reach out and get to know people.

    I think that I see a high initial barrier of distrust and non-acceptance. However, once that barrier is breached it seems to be complete, that is, you are either in or out, and if you are in, it is total. My interactions with non rednecks and other ethnic groups make me think that they hold some levels in reserve, they are more nuanced and make many distinctions among various interactions and situations, you could be in for “this” but not for “that.”

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    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    That sounds accurate. The general lack of hypocrisy which is day to day existence elsewhere is pretty refreshing and not having to guess where to stand in regards to someone. In terms of brotherhood, it was probably something I found nowhere else; I once got into a fight and my friend immediately came to my side. He didn't bother to ask if it was my fault or not, or who started it; it only mattered that I was his friend. You can't really find that attitude anywhere else anymore.

    Ultimately, though, I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that "rednecks" are usually pretty low on the money scale and thanks to capitalism, being poor seems to be almost equated with being evil. In a monoculture where money is everything, honor-based subcultures are always going to be bashed. I think its a pity, even though it does have its very real dysfunctions. I imagine these days with meth spreading, it can't be pretty.
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  245. @Guillaume Tell
    Please dot not apologize. I think that from this OT question, ensued a discussion on a topic that is in fact profound under an apparently superficial tone: namely, how is a young man to think about his relations with the fair sex, in a world where men/women relations have been all but destroyed by sexual degeneracy, feminism, faggotry, and assorted evils.

    Thorfinnsson's candid exposition of his suffering, still ongoing, because of his parents' divorce is not only touching, it also goes straight to the heart of the matter. The destruction of the family leads to successful young men viewing women as whores. Don't blame him, he is just the messenger here.

    I appreciate the kind remarks, but do not consider myself as someone who is suffering. My life is quite good and indeed I am blessed.

    I also accept the criticism of others such as iffen who raise good points about my behavior.

    Back on topic… https://www.reuters.com/article/us-japan-retirement/japan-short-of-workers-eyes-hiking-optional-pension-age-beyond-70-idUSKCN1G106L

    Read More
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  246. @iffen
    What do you guys think of organizing a Karlin conference for all of us?

    I have shot my mouth off with insults too many times, and I am too old to kick ass or get mine kicked, otherwise it sounds like fun.

    What we need is an adjacent chat room to the comment section. A good computer whiz could likely make that available with little effort, although it would have to be one that didn't dole out agree/disagree tabs like an old maid niggardly handing out cookies to the neighbor kids.

    I think we need to start organizing in meat space.

    How does Vegas sound to everyone?

    Or since we have more Euros here, where is the appropriate conference venue in Europe? Hanover?

    Read More
    • Replies: @iffen
    What are you thinking of? A Tea Party type approach? I can't see any of the commenters here doing retail politics and I doubt that the Koch brothers would spring for a group such as us.
    , @The Big Red Scary
    Crimea. Maybe even AP would come, and Mr. Hack could survey the local Tatars to see how things are going for them.

    You do know that Hanover is a dump?
    , @reiner Tor
    People with families traveling across a continent for an online discussion group meetup? I don’t think it’s realistic. It can work for singles, though. I can go if it’s nearby and I don’t have any other obligations.
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  247. iffen says:
    @Thorfinnsson
    I think we need to start organizing in meat space.

    How does Vegas sound to everyone?

    Or since we have more Euros here, where is the appropriate conference venue in Europe? Hanover?

    What are you thinking of? A Tea Party type approach? I can’t see any of the commenters here doing retail politics and I doubt that the Koch brothers would spring for a group such as us.

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    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    I don't know yet. I'm working on it. If you or anyone else has ideas, share them.

    But I do know that if we don't organize in meat space we'll never get anywhere.

    This commentariat impresses me more than any other group I've been a part of, and I want to make something out of it. That is, out of us.

    I have money and probably so do some other commenters here.

    But more importantly I have a knack for inspiration and leadership.
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  248. @iffen
    It’s hard to make a case for more Africans


    Are you saying that we shouldn't send surplus milk powder to starving children?

    The question is loaded. The end result of it will be even more starving children. I used to send money to some charities saving third world children, but I no longer do that, and the reason is that I don’t know if its end result won’t be an increase in human suffering. Actually, I’m sure that the end result will be even more suffering.

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    • Replies: @iffen
    The end result of it will be even more starving children.

    This is like a negative effective altruism. We can reduce the total number of people who need help by not helping anyone, thereby reducing the propagation of people who need help.

    , @iffen
    I understand that we should be cautious with charity and not encourage behavior by "rewarding" it. But the fact remains that you are balancing an actual starving person against one or more possible or theoretical persons in the future.
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  249. @Guillaume Tell
    A simpler option might be to formally renounce is US citizenship. If he does not intend to move back to the US ever, the US citizenship is a net liability nowadays.

    Certainly it’s a liability, but so far I have workarounds and the formal process of renunciation is expensive (over ten times more than renewing your passport).

    Read More
    • Replies: @Guillaume Tell
    I know and have wondered before whether that would stand in front of the SCOTUS. One implication of the current state of affairs is that one pauper may not renounced his US citizenship. That’s not reasonable.

    That said, let’s imagine for a minute that you make an appointment at US consulate general closest to your home; then request to see the consul or consular officer; then submit a renouncement letter and sign it in front of that person; finally also hand over your US passport, then leave. After that, inform the IRS in writing that you have resigned your citizenship on xx/xx/2018 at the above mentioned Consulate. Finally, ignore all subsequent letters from the IRS.

    In that case, what would happen? I am really wondering if there is anything they could do against you — provided, of course, that you relocate not, and not even travel, to the USA.
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  250. @iffen
    What are you thinking of? A Tea Party type approach? I can't see any of the commenters here doing retail politics and I doubt that the Koch brothers would spring for a group such as us.

    I don’t know yet. I’m working on it. If you or anyone else has ideas, share them.

    But I do know that if we don’t organize in meat space we’ll never get anywhere.

    This commentariat impresses me more than any other group I’ve been a part of, and I want to make something out of it. That is, out of us.

    I have money and probably so do some other commenters here.

    But more importantly I have a knack for inspiration and leadership.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Guillaume Tell
    Andorra
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  251. @Thorfinnsson
    I think we need to start organizing in meat space.

    How does Vegas sound to everyone?

    Or since we have more Euros here, where is the appropriate conference venue in Europe? Hanover?

    Crimea. Maybe even AP would come, and Mr. Hack could survey the local Tatars to see how things are going for them.

    You do know that Hanover is a dump?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    Crimea is a good idea given the subject of this blog.

    I haven't been to Hanover. I just know it has an important trade fair.
    , @Mitleser
    Hannover is not that bad!

    Better than Berlin.

    https://shadowrunberlin.files.wordpress.com/2013/05/berlinbild-detail2.png
    , @Guillaume Tell
    Crimea -- I second that!!!
    , @anonymous
    no it's not.
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  252. dfordoom says: • Website
    @iffen
    It’s a very healthy thing for capitalists to be lined up against the wall and shot on a fairly regular basis.


    If R. Unz would come through with the coins and fund the GWAS study on the noblesse oblige trait we could save the "good" ones.


    Also, consider using the guillotine, it is much more humane.

    If R. Unz would come through with the coins and fund the GWAS study on the noblesse oblige trait we could save the “good” ones.

    Good idea.

    Also, consider using the guillotine, it is much more humane.

    As long as the capitalists are liquidated I have no great problems with doing it humanely. I’m not a barbarian.

    Read More
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  253. JL says:

    РОССИЯ!!!

    Read More
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  254. @The Big Red Scary
    Crimea. Maybe even AP would come, and Mr. Hack could survey the local Tatars to see how things are going for them.

    You do know that Hanover is a dump?

    Crimea is a good idea given the subject of this blog.

    I haven’t been to Hanover. I just know it has an important trade fair.

    Read More
    • Replies: @German_reader
    Hanover is a leftie-infested shit place that ought to be neutron-bombed. If you wanted to meet in Germany, at least pick something nice like Munich.
    Somewhere in Eastern Europe or Russia would probably be more convenient for most of AK's European commenters anyway (and certainly more appropriate).
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  255. neutral says:

    Is Karlin still refusing to talk about the world cup, even with his team winning?

    Read More
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  256. @Thorfinnsson
    Crimea is a good idea given the subject of this blog.

    I haven't been to Hanover. I just know it has an important trade fair.

    Hanover is a leftie-infested shit place that ought to be neutron-bombed. If you wanted to meet in Germany, at least pick something nice like Munich.
    Somewhere in Eastern Europe or Russia would probably be more convenient for most of AK’s European commenters anyway (and certainly more appropriate).

    Read More
    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    If you Euros want Europe, suggest a place. I will do everything from there.
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  257. lol, Russia beat Spain?
    I agree with neutral, AK should at least acknowledge that.
    Congratulations to Russia!

    Read More
    • Replies: @JL
    Judging by his Twitter feed above, he's not taking this very well:

    So how do all my critics who like to cuck for the Russian football team feel? 11 minutes, lol. I feel my 3-1 prediction may have been optimistic.
     

    Well, my criticism is clearly doing wonders for the Russian team. This was a fluke, they can't attack for shit, will be put out of their misery in the semifinals by Croatia.
     
    I'm not sure how vastly exceeding expectations is now qualified as misery (perhaps he was thinking about himself), nor how Croatia will be doing anything to Russia in the semifinals since they are meeting in the 1/4 round. My understanding, also, is that the Russians specifically chose a defensive strategy in the match with Spain, and it worked.
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  258. Dmitry says:
    @Talha

    Why pass it up?
     
    Apparently you have not read of the punishments that await adulterers in the Afterlife as explicated by hadith.

    That's why I would avoid with a ten-foot pole - not because I am a eunuch.

    Also, my teachers have mentioned (and they have the experience of counseling thousands of families and young men and women all together) that what goes around comes around. Don't be surprised if you are eventually cuckolded if you cuckold another man.

    I have your best interests in mind; avoid like the plague.

    Peace.

    Apparently you have not read of the punishments that await adulterers in the Afterlife as explicated by hadith.

    So you just respond to (imaginary) punishments and rewards, like a mouse in a cage.

    No actual morality?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    I have morality, the threat of punishments help when the ego attempts to break out of the cage it’s been confined to.

    There are multiple motivations that keep one in check:
    - Potential loss of one’s position with God
    - Loss of years of the effects of spiritual efforts
    - Finally punishment

    It’s a failsafe.

    We’ll both see if they are imaginary, right? Let’s exchange notes then.

    Peace.

    , @DFH
    Part of the irrationality of Islam
    , @AaronB
    All behavior is motivated by some kind of reward or punishment.
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  259. Talha says:
    @Dmitry

    Apparently you have not read of the punishments that await adulterers in the Afterlife as explicated by hadith.

     

    So you just respond to (imaginary) punishments and rewards, like a mouse in a cage.

    No actual morality?

    I have morality, the threat of punishments help when the ego attempts to break out of the cage it’s been confined to.

    There are multiple motivations that keep one in check:
    - Potential loss of one’s position with God
    - Loss of years of the effects of spiritual efforts
    - Finally punishment

    It’s a failsafe.

    We’ll both see if they are imaginary, right? Let’s exchange notes then.

    Peace.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Dmitry
    Because if god, or gods, exist, and they are interested in man to the extent of observing, and then later punishing this same man - they will not be generously to people who simply respond to perceived punishments and rewards like a mouse in a cage.

    Actually this distinction will be very important morally. Whether a person has done something for moral reasons, or because they believe it will result in punishment or rewards.

    The people who behave because of (imaginary or not) punishment or reward, are less moral than the people who disregard punishment and reward.

    Morality happens exactly when people disregard perceived punishment and reward, and nonetheless will do the correct thing, because it is correct, and particularly when it will lead not to reward, but precisely to punishment.

    A god will see instantly, that people doing something because they believes it will reward them, are the most immoral people, or precisely the people who do not have the extra dimension that constitutes real morality, and in this sense no different to an animal in the "Skinner box".

    , @iffen
    We’ll both see if they are imaginary, right? Let’s exchange notes then.


    No you won't. You need to pass your notes now.
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  260. Dmitry says:
    @German_reader

    The issue here is wanting to live well at others expense
     
    At the expense of the young.
    How are relations between the generations in Russia? Is AK with his contempt for "Sovok boomers" unusual or do many young people resent the older generations?

    The main difference is, on average, young people are more “liberal”, sophisticated and internationally knowledgeable compared to older generations.

    But comparisons between countries are not perfect, because the history is very different, and the interpretation of even the same ideologies can be too. And differences themselves are where the interesting are.

    A metaphor is that Russia’s watch is not very synchronized with the world clock, or at least the Western watches.

    But is it just lack of synchronization – if you ask when it is 1917 in Petrograd, if it 1789, or 1848, or 1871 in Paris? It’s not only going around the same race-track at different speeds, but rather going round at different speeds, a different race-track, with similar features, but with its own bend and corners, so that a driver on one track cannot learn the corners on his own track from observing another driver, even if he is more advanced through his own course, on a different track – and although the drivers on the less advanced track are commonly making this mistake exactly.

    Read More
    • Replies: @German_reader

    The main difference is, on average, young people are more “liberal”, sophisticated and internationally knowledgeable
     
    Sure, I don't doubt that. I just wondered how common AK's sentiments are...his views about Russian "boomers" and their values (too internationalist/not nationalist enough, too much Soviet nostalgia, too selfish etc.) seem very negative. Do many young people in Russia feel like that?
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  261. DFH says:
    @Dmitry

    Apparently you have not read of the punishments that await adulterers in the Afterlife as explicated by hadith.

     

    So you just respond to (imaginary) punishments and rewards, like a mouse in a cage.

    No actual morality?

    Part of the irrationality of Islam

    Read More
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  262. Dmitry says:
    @Talha
    I have morality, the threat of punishments help when the ego attempts to break out of the cage it’s been confined to.

    There are multiple motivations that keep one in check:
    - Potential loss of one’s position with God
    - Loss of years of the effects of spiritual efforts
    - Finally punishment

    It’s a failsafe.

    We’ll both see if they are imaginary, right? Let’s exchange notes then.

    Peace.

    Because if god, or gods, exist, and they are interested in man to the extent of observing, and then later punishing this same man – they will not be generously to people who simply respond to perceived punishments and rewards like a mouse in a cage.

    Actually this distinction will be very important morally. Whether a person has done something for moral reasons, or because they believe it will result in punishment or rewards.

    The people who behave because of (imaginary or not) punishment or reward, are less moral than the people who disregard punishment and reward.

    Morality happens exactly when people disregard perceived punishment and reward, and nonetheless will do the correct thing, because it is correct, and particularly when it will lead not to reward, but precisely to punishment.

    A god will see instantly, that people doing something because they believes it will reward them, are the most immoral people, or precisely the people who do not have the extra dimension that constitutes real morality, and in this sense no different to an animal in the “Skinner box”.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha

    will do the correct thing, because it is correct
     
    Baloney - no one agrees on what is correct. Human history will attest to this; families with children used to come out to see human being being sacrificed or people being drawn and quartered and thought it was a great use of their time. If you were born into the Mongol Horde, you would have thought nothing of burning a village to the ground after raping every woman you could get your hands on.

    What moral stances are you taking that are not already popular? This morality takes as much effort as breathing.

    The morality you think you have come to through some sophisticated mechanism is simply an inheritance of the post-Christian environment you were born into and - far more important - from a materialist viewpoint, simply the result of your genetic algorithm processing inputs as others through your specific chemical processes. Your morality was determined at the time of the Big Bang - according to you, you and I have no choice in the matter.

    Find me a serious atheist thinker that believes in free-will which is the basis for morality.

    Peace.

    , @AaronB
    Dmitry, the person who does the moral thing irrespective of external punishment or reward does so because the internal reward of doing so is experienced by him as far greater than any external punishment.

    It is still well within the reward punishment schema. Some kind of reward and punishment motivates all our behavior, and must, or we would do nothing. It could be internal reward, intrinsic reward, or external reward. But reward it must be.

    The man who is no longer able to feel a sense of reward for his actions becomes like GR - apathetic, scared of big projects and grand dreams, and bitter against those still connected to their reward system.

    From the religious pov, God is already rewarding us for moral behavior by making it intrinsically pleasurable, and punishing us for immoral behavior by making it intrinsically misery inducing - of c ourse, the effects my not be immediate, which is why people sin and even persist.

    Some theologians believe Hell is simply the horrific state of mind the bad man lives in continuing into eternity - resentment, jealousy, hatred, anxiety, cut from higher pleasures like love, beauty, nature, and only capable of feeling the lower bestial pleasures.

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  263. AaronB says:
    @Dmitry

    Apparently you have not read of the punishments that await adulterers in the Afterlife as explicated by hadith.

     

    So you just respond to (imaginary) punishments and rewards, like a mouse in a cage.

    No actual morality?

    All behavior is motivated by some kind of reward or punishment.

    Read More
    • Replies: @German_reader
    A really primitive and reductionist view, especially for someone who constantly goes on about "idealism" and spiritual values.
    , @Talha
    Correct - or in the materialist view - what gives chemical feeeelz-good response to the brain; and different things do that for different people. For some it's charity, for some it's a threesome, for some torturing cats to death.

    Peace.
    , @DFH
    Who would have guessed that AaronB and Bentham agreed on so much?
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  264. @AaronB
    All behavior is motivated by some kind of reward or punishment.

    A really primitive and reductionist view, especially for someone who constantly goes on about “idealism” and spiritual values.

    Read More
    • Replies: @AaronB
    As usual, GR, you do not understand the subtlety of my thought, and the many meanings of reward.

    I think you should be required to take a university course in philosophy before you are allowed to read me.
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  265. @Dmitry
    The main difference is, on average, young people are more "liberal", sophisticated and internationally knowledgeable compared to older generations.

    But comparisons between countries are not perfect, because the history is very different, and the interpretation of even the same ideologies can be too. And differences themselves are where the interesting are.

    A metaphor is that Russia's watch is not very synchronized with the world clock, or at least the Western watches.

    But is it just lack of synchronization - if you ask when it is 1917 in Petrograd, if it 1789, or 1848, or 1871 in Paris? It's not only going around the same race-track at different speeds, but rather going round at different speeds, a different race-track, with similar features, but with its own bend and corners, so that a driver on one track cannot learn the corners on his own track from observing another driver, even if he is more advanced through his own course, on a different track - and although the drivers on the less advanced track are commonly making this mistake exactly.

    The main difference is, on average, young people are more “liberal”, sophisticated and internationally knowledgeable

    Sure, I don’t doubt that. I just wondered how common AK’s sentiments are…his views about Russian “boomers” and their values (too internationalist/not nationalist enough, too much Soviet nostalgia, too selfish etc.) seem very negative. Do many young people in Russia feel like that?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Dmitry
    If it is said on Karlin blog, then it's said on the most important place in the internet.

    -

    But simply and accurately - older generations are politically more aligned with the general views heard on federal television.

    And younger people, are spending more time on the internet, and there is more ideological fragmentation and subcultures developing nowadays, so it's harder to know what's happening.

    At the same time, less people interested in politics. Less people even reading books. The people who are teenagers now - will waste increasing time following instagram and YouTube beauty gurus.

    What will be the long-term political impact of these trends? I guess that in the future, you'll be able to vote for your preferred candidate by clicking 'likes' on an internet video, and probably we will move increasingly to a "clickbait politics".

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  266. Talha says:
    @AaronB
    All behavior is motivated by some kind of reward or punishment.

    Correct – or in the materialist view – what gives chemical feeeelz-good response to the brain; and different things do that for different people. For some it’s charity, for some it’s a threesome, for some torturing cats to death.

    Peace.

    Read More
    • Replies: @AaronB
    I would agree, except that I would objectively rank the pleasures and not make them a matter of personal preference.

    The person so twisted by bitterness, resentment, and hate that he enjoys torturing cats may indeed derive a certain pleasure from that, but I would say it is an objectively lower quality pleasure than a healthy well constituted person enjoying the pleasures of love or the splendor of nature.
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  267. AaronB says:
    @Talha
    Correct - or in the materialist view - what gives chemical feeeelz-good response to the brain; and different things do that for different people. For some it's charity, for some it's a threesome, for some torturing cats to death.

    Peace.

    I would agree, except that I would objectively rank the pleasures and not make them a matter of personal preference.

    The person so twisted by bitterness, resentment, and hate that he enjoys torturing cats may indeed derive a certain pleasure from that, but I would say it is an objectively lower quality pleasure than a healthy well constituted person enjoying the pleasures of love or the splendor of nature.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    Sure, I'll agree to this. I'm sure the guy who likes torturing cats gets a higher pleasure out of a woman writing him a love letter.

    By the way torturing cats was common in certain parts in medieval times. If I recall, in certain places in France, they would light a cat on fire and have it run around town until it collapsed and also a bunch of them in cages.

    Peace.
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  268. Talha says:
    @Dmitry
    Because if god, or gods, exist, and they are interested in man to the extent of observing, and then later punishing this same man - they will not be generously to people who simply respond to perceived punishments and rewards like a mouse in a cage.

    Actually this distinction will be very important morally. Whether a person has done something for moral reasons, or because they believe it will result in punishment or rewards.

    The people who behave because of (imaginary or not) punishment or reward, are less moral than the people who disregard punishment and reward.

    Morality happens exactly when people disregard perceived punishment and reward, and nonetheless will do the correct thing, because it is correct, and particularly when it will lead not to reward, but precisely to punishment.

    A god will see instantly, that people doing something because they believes it will reward them, are the most immoral people, or precisely the people who do not have the extra dimension that constitutes real morality, and in this sense no different to an animal in the "Skinner box".

    will do the correct thing, because it is correct

    Baloney – no one agrees on what is correct. Human history will attest to this; families with children used to come out to see human being being sacrificed or people being drawn and quartered and thought it was a great use of their time. If you were born into the Mongol Horde, you would have thought nothing of burning a village to the ground after raping every woman you could get your hands on.

    What moral stances are you taking that are not already popular? This morality takes as much effort as breathing.

    The morality you think you have come to through some sophisticated mechanism is simply an inheritance of the post-Christian environment you were born into and – far more important – from a materialist viewpoint, simply the result of your genetic algorithm processing inputs as others through your specific chemical processes. Your morality was determined at the time of the Big Bang – according to you, you and I have no choice in the matter.

    Find me a serious atheist thinker that believes in free-will which is the basis for morality.

    Peace.

    Read More
    • Replies: @DFH
    Literally nothing you wrote is an argument against what he said
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  269. AaronB says:
    @German_reader
    A really primitive and reductionist view, especially for someone who constantly goes on about "idealism" and spiritual values.

    As usual, GR, you do not understand the subtlety of my thought, and the many meanings of reward.

    I think you should be required to take a university course in philosophy before you are allowed to read me.

    Read More
    • LOL: iffen
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  270. DFH says:
    @AaronB
    All behavior is motivated by some kind of reward or punishment.

    Who would have guessed that AaronB and Bentham agreed on so much?

    Read More
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  271. Talha says:
    @AaronB
    I would agree, except that I would objectively rank the pleasures and not make them a matter of personal preference.

    The person so twisted by bitterness, resentment, and hate that he enjoys torturing cats may indeed derive a certain pleasure from that, but I would say it is an objectively lower quality pleasure than a healthy well constituted person enjoying the pleasures of love or the splendor of nature.

    Sure, I’ll agree to this. I’m sure the guy who likes torturing cats gets a higher pleasure out of a woman writing him a love letter.

    By the way torturing cats was common in certain parts in medieval times. If I recall, in certain places in France, they would light a cat on fire and have it run around town until it collapsed and also a bunch of them in cages.

    Peace.

    Read More
    • Replies: @AaronB
    Well, the guy who currently likes torturing cats may not enjoy a love letter as he now is, but if he could feel the pleasure a healthy gets from a love letter, he would rather be that healthy guy.

    Anyways these are just subtle points of philosophy :)

    It is truly a shame how cruel Europeans used to be to animals.
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  272. DFH says:
    @Talha

    will do the correct thing, because it is correct
     
    Baloney - no one agrees on what is correct. Human history will attest to this; families with children used to come out to see human being being sacrificed or people being drawn and quartered and thought it was a great use of their time. If you were born into the Mongol Horde, you would have thought nothing of burning a village to the ground after raping every woman you could get your hands on.

    What moral stances are you taking that are not already popular? This morality takes as much effort as breathing.

    The morality you think you have come to through some sophisticated mechanism is simply an inheritance of the post-Christian environment you were born into and - far more important - from a materialist viewpoint, simply the result of your genetic algorithm processing inputs as others through your specific chemical processes. Your morality was determined at the time of the Big Bang - according to you, you and I have no choice in the matter.

    Find me a serious atheist thinker that believes in free-will which is the basis for morality.

    Peace.

    Literally nothing you wrote is an argument against what he said

    Read More
    • Agree: Dmitry
    • Replies: @Talha
    Cool - I totally agree with your right to think I am wrong. If his argument appeals more to you then good for him.

    Peace.
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  273. Talha says:
    @DFH
    Literally nothing you wrote is an argument against what he said

    Cool – I totally agree with your right to think I am wrong. If his argument appeals more to you then good for him.

    Peace.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Dmitry
    You miss the point.

    The issue is not about what is right and what is wrong.

    The issue is that someone who does what is right, because they believe they will be rewarded for it.

    And someone who avoids what is wrong, because they believe they will be punished for it.

    In both cases, they are not behaving morally.

    On the contrary, they are behaving as a rat in a "Skinner box".

    So - it's an example of people without morality, almost in the most basic concept that any god would judge them. It's just the rat responding to anticipations of cheese or electric shocks.

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  274. AaronB says:
    @Dmitry
    Because if god, or gods, exist, and they are interested in man to the extent of observing, and then later punishing this same man - they will not be generously to people who simply respond to perceived punishments and rewards like a mouse in a cage.

    Actually this distinction will be very important morally. Whether a person has done something for moral reasons, or because they believe it will result in punishment or rewards.

    The people who behave because of (imaginary or not) punishment or reward, are less moral than the people who disregard punishment and reward.

    Morality happens exactly when people disregard perceived punishment and reward, and nonetheless will do the correct thing, because it is correct, and particularly when it will lead not to reward, but precisely to punishment.

    A god will see instantly, that people doing something because they believes it will reward them, are the most immoral people, or precisely the people who do not have the extra dimension that constitutes real morality, and in this sense no different to an animal in the "Skinner box".

    Dmitry, the person who does the moral thing irrespective of external punishment or reward does so because the internal reward of doing so is experienced by him as far greater than any external punishment.

    It is still well within the reward punishment schema. Some kind of reward and punishment motivates all our behavior, and must, or we would do nothing. It could be internal reward, intrinsic reward, or external reward. But reward it must be.

    The man who is no longer able to feel a sense of reward for his actions becomes like GR – apathetic, scared of big projects and grand dreams, and bitter against those still connected to their reward system.

    From the religious pov, God is already rewarding us for moral behavior by making it intrinsically pleasurable, and punishing us for immoral behavior by making it intrinsically misery inducing – of c ourse, the effects my not be immediate, which is why people sin and even persist.

    Some theologians believe Hell is simply the horrific state of mind the bad man lives in continuing into eternity – resentment, jealousy, hatred, anxiety, cut from higher pleasures like love, beauty, nature, and only capable of feeling the lower bestial pleasures.

    Read More
    • Replies: @German_reader

    and punishing us for immoral behavior by making it intrinsically misery inducing
     
    Well, not for everyone, there are of course sociopaths without a conscience.
    And Peter Frost always had those posts about how not all populations are equally empathic (and the difference between cognitive and affective empathy). He advanced that as an explanation for the Paki rape gangs in Britain...in their homeland they would be restrained from such behaviour by external constraints, but those aren't operative in Britain, and since their inner conscience is rather under-developed, they act like they do and see nothing wrong in it.
    I'm not sure how credible that is, but it's an interesting theory.
    , @Dmitry

    Dmitry, the person who does the moral thing irrespective of external punishment or reward does so because the internal reward of doing so is experienced by him as far greater than any external punishment.
     
    It's not correct.

    (Although perhaps B. F. Skinner would like to reduce humanity to such a condition).

    Precisely the most moral person who would do it - if there was no internal reward, anymore than the lack of external reward.

    The concept of reward itself, results that the action would lose its specifically moral or transcendent component
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  275. AaronB says:
    @Talha
    Sure, I'll agree to this. I'm sure the guy who likes torturing cats gets a higher pleasure out of a woman writing him a love letter.

    By the way torturing cats was common in certain parts in medieval times. If I recall, in certain places in France, they would light a cat on fire and have it run around town until it collapsed and also a bunch of them in cages.

    Peace.

    Well, the guy who currently likes torturing cats may not enjoy a love letter as he now is, but if he could feel the pleasure a healthy gets from a love letter, he would rather be that healthy guy.

    Anyways these are just subtle points of philosophy :)

    It is truly a shame how cruel Europeans used to be to animals.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Guillaume Tell
    Yes because your beloved n0n-Europenas were not cruel to animals, right?
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  276. @AaronB
    Dmitry, the person who does the moral thing irrespective of external punishment or reward does so because the internal reward of doing so is experienced by him as far greater than any external punishment.

    It is still well within the reward punishment schema. Some kind of reward and punishment motivates all our behavior, and must, or we would do nothing. It could be internal reward, intrinsic reward, or external reward. But reward it must be.

    The man who is no longer able to feel a sense of reward for his actions becomes like GR - apathetic, scared of big projects and grand dreams, and bitter against those still connected to their reward system.

    From the religious pov, God is already rewarding us for moral behavior by making it intrinsically pleasurable, and punishing us for immoral behavior by making it intrinsically misery inducing - of c ourse, the effects my not be immediate, which is why people sin and even persist.

    Some theologians believe Hell is simply the horrific state of mind the bad man lives in continuing into eternity - resentment, jealousy, hatred, anxiety, cut from higher pleasures like love, beauty, nature, and only capable of feeling the lower bestial pleasures.

    and punishing us for immoral behavior by making it intrinsically misery inducing

    Well, not for everyone, there are of course sociopaths without a conscience.
    And Peter Frost always had those posts about how not all populations are equally empathic (and the difference between cognitive and affective empathy). He advanced that as an explanation for the Paki rape gangs in Britain…in their homeland they would be restrained from such behaviour by external constraints, but those aren’t operative in Britain, and since their inner conscience is rather under-developed, they act like they do and see nothing wrong in it.
    I’m not sure how credible that is, but it’s an interesting theory.

    Read More
    • Replies: @AaronB
    True, not for everyone, but sociopathic pleasures are objectively lower quality - being in the New York business community, I am around sociopaths all the time. Beneath the shine, they are an unhappy bunch. Their main emotion s seem to be resentment, jealousy, and fear, and they seem cut off from the higher emotions. But they do smile a lot, when they are not a rage fit.

    Why a person chooses to go deeper and deeper into evil and corruption despite the obvious misery of it is one of the mysteries of free will, but some people do it.

    As for genetic variations in empathy, it's not so much that I don't buy it as that it would be incredibly difficult to prove as environment and predicament shape so much of our character. I suspect those Pakistanis were just corrupted Muslims - every system corrupts in a different way, when it gets corrupted. Obviously Islam does not encourage grooming gangs, but a corrupted version of the Islamic distinction between believers and non believers may result in lack of empathy to outsiders. It's similar with corrupted Jews.

    If someone were born with a genetic deficiency in empathy, he'd want to work on developing it.
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  277. Dmitry says:
    @Talha
    Cool - I totally agree with your right to think I am wrong. If his argument appeals more to you then good for him.

    Peace.

    You miss the point.

    The issue is not about what is right and what is wrong.

    The issue is that someone who does what is right, because they believe they will be rewarded for it.

    And someone who avoids what is wrong, because they believe they will be punished for it.

    In both cases, they are not behaving morally.

    On the contrary, they are behaving as a rat in a “Skinner box”.

    So – it’s an example of people without morality, almost in the most basic concept that any god would judge them. It’s just the rat responding to anticipations of cheese or electric shocks.

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    • Replies: @Talha
    I am understanding more and more clearly why the West is post-Christian. A large reason being that they let materialists frame the debate and gain a monopoly over the terms of such debate - after that, it was simply rope-a-dope.

    To proceed...

    The issue is not about what is right and what is wrong.
     
    You want to have a discussion about morality and not engage into the epistemic foundation of how one derives right or wrong? Is this a bad joke?

    In both cases, they are not behaving morally.
     
    Sure...according to YOU. This is your opinion. You are positing it as a fact, but there is absolutely no reason for anybody to assume it as such. A morality divorced from any sort of reward system is what makes sense to YOU. AaronB has already pointed out the flaws in working from this baseline assumption. Sure you can bring philosopher so-and-so to back your viewpoint, but that is simply appeal to authority in this situation which is easily trumped by appealing to God.

    As far as morality in our view, then it cannot be divorced from the belief in God and the Afterlife. As the scholars explain, there are grades of morality, predicated on the target of the individual and their sincerity.

    1. The most moral approach is to do everything only for God's pleasure and seeking closeness to Him:
    "And they give food in spite of love for it to the needy, the orphan, and the captive, saying; 'We feed you only for the countenance of God. We wish not from you reward or gratitude.'" (76:8-9)
    2. The second is to seek rewards that are promised like Paradise and its treasures - as this is still tied to one's belief in what God has promised, even though it is slightly off the mark.
    3. The lowest is to do things to avoid the Fire - again, still tied to belief in the unseen, but of low aspiration.

    Immoral motivations are what one does when they do even laudable acts - like giving charity, acts of worship, etc. - but do it to show off or to feel proud of oneself. These are insincere and have a good chance of being punished at God's discretion.

    If you say seeking closeness to God and His pleasure is not a valid moral motivation in your estimation, we say:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWdd6_ZxX8c

    Now this all might not convince you of anything, but - as Imam Ghazali (ra) pointed out - that is not sound argument, it just means you are not convinced. I mean, I am not convinced of your position, does that make you wrong? Why should it apply in reverse?

    Now, as I had mentioned before, there is not much to debate here. I'm simply about making my position clear, not wasting my time trying to convince anybody of it. People can pick whichever appeals to their heart, intellect or predetermined genetic algorithm.

    To me the most preposterous thing that could result is that a person who believes in an unseen reality and a materialist would actually come to some sort of agreement on the basic definitions and outlines of morality at an epistemic level. Our cosmologies are diametrically opposed to each other.

    Peace.
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  278. @German_reader
    Hanover is a leftie-infested shit place that ought to be neutron-bombed. If you wanted to meet in Germany, at least pick something nice like Munich.
    Somewhere in Eastern Europe or Russia would probably be more convenient for most of AK's European commenters anyway (and certainly more appropriate).

    If you Euros want Europe, suggest a place. I will do everything from there.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Guillaume Tell
    I was not joking when I was suggesting the Kingdom of Spain or, better yet, the Co-Principality of Andorra. There are objective reasons to that (not the least of which being that I could help with logistics).
    , @Anatoly Karlin
    Some proposals:
    * Moscow is a wonderful city these days, even AP would happily confirm; hosts huge amounts of conferences anyway, is cheap for a world-class megapolis.
    * Crimea would be cool, and lots of new infrastructure has been built in the past few years... but logistics would be even more complicated.
    * Visegrad area is highly competitive... Hungary would probably be best: Cheap, central location, many cheap air routes, we have a local there, there's an Alt Right scene and few antifas. Czechia or Slovakia might be good as well. I am more skeptical about Poland, I wouldn't put it past them to shut something like this down.
    * London will be very convenient for me personally (I am there twice a year for personal reasons anyway) but UK is horrific from a free speech perspective.
    * The H-Man's place. I have a good friend who regularly flies between Vienna and Moscow, will be a good reason to join her and finally tick this off.
    * Caesar Salvini's place. Have never been to Italy, and would dearly like to tick it off as well. Also politically auspicious.
    * Mr. House's place. If in the US, I am totally down for Vegas; I really love that city. However, return flights there approach $1,000 from Moscow, which is a bit too steep for me at the present time.
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  279. Dmitry says:
    @AaronB
    Dmitry, the person who does the moral thing irrespective of external punishment or reward does so because the internal reward of doing so is experienced by him as far greater than any external punishment.

    It is still well within the reward punishment schema. Some kind of reward and punishment motivates all our behavior, and must, or we would do nothing. It could be internal reward, intrinsic reward, or external reward. But reward it must be.

    The man who is no longer able to feel a sense of reward for his actions becomes like GR - apathetic, scared of big projects and grand dreams, and bitter against those still connected to their reward system.

    From the religious pov, God is already rewarding us for moral behavior by making it intrinsically pleasurable, and punishing us for immoral behavior by making it intrinsically misery inducing - of c ourse, the effects my not be immediate, which is why people sin and even persist.

    Some theologians believe Hell is simply the horrific state of mind the bad man lives in continuing into eternity - resentment, jealousy, hatred, anxiety, cut from higher pleasures like love, beauty, nature, and only capable of feeling the lower bestial pleasures.

    Dmitry, the person who does the moral thing irrespective of external punishment or reward does so because the internal reward of doing so is experienced by him as far greater than any external punishment.

    It’s not correct.

    (Although perhaps B. F. Skinner would like to reduce humanity to such a condition).

    Precisely the most moral person who would do it – if there was no internal reward, anymore than the lack of external reward.

    The concept of reward itself, results that the action would lose its specifically moral or transcendent component

    Read More
    • Replies: @AaronB
    So he derives pleasure from doing the 'right's thing. It's a semantic distinction.

    If you are literally trying to suggest moral behavior is pleasureless behavior, then you are not just objectively wrong as people obviously get pleasure from it but you are also rendering it meaningless.

    Come to think of it, I seem to remember your way of thinking about morality is representative of certain European strains of thought - which would be one more piece of the puzzle of why Europe became so apathetic and European life so lustrerless and unappealing to high quality whites.

    Moral life disconnected from the reward system!

    Dmitry, can you point me out to philosophers or thinkers whom have this idea?
    , @AaronB

    transcendent
     
    It sounds like you merely object to external earthly reward, like praise or money.

    But you recognize a spiritual reward.

    In any event, traditional religions do not understand it this way - they are constantly talking about the sheer bliss and peace and sense of blessedness that result from following their practices - and if morality became associated in the modern European mind with such pleasureless emptiness rather than the bliss giving happiness all the religions say it brings than it is no wonder religion is so widely rejected in the West! neurological

    Religion has become disconnected from the reward system in the European mjnd, and become utterly abstract and tautological- one does it because one does it. One is moral because one is moral. No happiness. No bliss.

    And your description of morality Dmitry is not meaningful - it is tautological.

    No wonder European life became so gloomy!

    Thank you Dmitry, you have helped me with a piece of the puzzle.
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  280. AaronB says:
    @German_reader

    and punishing us for immoral behavior by making it intrinsically misery inducing
     
    Well, not for everyone, there are of course sociopaths without a conscience.
    And Peter Frost always had those posts about how not all populations are equally empathic (and the difference between cognitive and affective empathy). He advanced that as an explanation for the Paki rape gangs in Britain...in their homeland they would be restrained from such behaviour by external constraints, but those aren't operative in Britain, and since their inner conscience is rather under-developed, they act like they do and see nothing wrong in it.
    I'm not sure how credible that is, but it's an interesting theory.

    True, not for everyone, but sociopathic pleasures are objectively lower quality – being in the New York business community, I am around sociopaths all the time. Beneath the shine, they are an unhappy bunch. Their main emotion s seem to be resentment, jealousy, and fear, and they seem cut off from the higher emotions. But they do smile a lot, when they are not a rage fit.

    Why a person chooses to go deeper and deeper into evil and corruption despite the obvious misery of it is one of the mysteries of free will, but some people do it.

    As for genetic variations in empathy, it’s not so much that I don’t buy it as that it would be incredibly difficult to prove as environment and predicament shape so much of our character. I suspect those Pakistanis were just corrupted Muslims – every system corrupts in a different way, when it gets corrupted. Obviously Islam does not encourage grooming gangs, but a corrupted version of the Islamic distinction between believers and non believers may result in lack of empathy to outsiders. It’s similar with corrupted Jews.

    If someone were born with a genetic deficiency in empathy, he’d want to work on developing it.

    Read More
    • Replies: @German_reader

    being in the New York business community
     
    I thought you had written a few weeks ago that you're living outside the US..."New York business community", lol.
    It's encouraging though that even you admit that the extreme ingroup/outgroup "morality" of many Muslims might have something to do with those rape gangs.
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  281. AaronB says:
    @Dmitry

    Dmitry, the person who does the moral thing irrespective of external punishment or reward does so because the internal reward of doing so is experienced by him as far greater than any external punishment.
     
    It's not correct.

    (Although perhaps B. F. Skinner would like to reduce humanity to such a condition).

    Precisely the most moral person who would do it - if there was no internal reward, anymore than the lack of external reward.

    The concept of reward itself, results that the action would lose its specifically moral or transcendent component

    So he derives pleasure from doing the ‘right’s thing. It’s a semantic distinction.

    If you are literally trying to suggest moral behavior is pleasureless behavior, then you are not just objectively wrong as people obviously get pleasure from it but you are also rendering it meaningless.

    Come to think of it, I seem to remember your way of thinking about morality is representative of certain European strains of thought – which would be one more piece of the puzzle of why Europe became so apathetic and European life so lustrerless and unappealing to high quality whites.

    Moral life disconnected from the reward system!

    Dmitry, can you point me out to philosophers or thinkers whom have this idea?

    Read More
    • Replies: @DFH
    Kant
    , @Dmitry
    The moment you introduce reward or punishment, you have removed all the morality dimension.

    I'm not sure I have to explain this? It's like a tone-deaf person, trying to conceive of music.

    If the person does something because of reward, whether real or imaginary, then it is still a rat in a Skinner box. (That is to say, there has not entered any moral component to their behaviour).

    If you conceive morality simply as a more complicated reward system, you have just introduced a Rube Goldberg machine into rat's Skinner box, or more tragically, a rat perceiving some imaginary Rube Goldberg machine that will somehow give them the piece of non-imaginary cheese.

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  282. @AaronB
    True, not for everyone, but sociopathic pleasures are objectively lower quality - being in the New York business community, I am around sociopaths all the time. Beneath the shine, they are an unhappy bunch. Their main emotion s seem to be resentment, jealousy, and fear, and they seem cut off from the higher emotions. But they do smile a lot, when they are not a rage fit.

    Why a person chooses to go deeper and deeper into evil and corruption despite the obvious misery of it is one of the mysteries of free will, but some people do it.

    As for genetic variations in empathy, it's not so much that I don't buy it as that it would be incredibly difficult to prove as environment and predicament shape so much of our character. I suspect those Pakistanis were just corrupted Muslims - every system corrupts in a different way, when it gets corrupted. Obviously Islam does not encourage grooming gangs, but a corrupted version of the Islamic distinction between believers and non believers may result in lack of empathy to outsiders. It's similar with corrupted Jews.

    If someone were born with a genetic deficiency in empathy, he'd want to work on developing it.

    being in the New York business community

    I thought you had written a few weeks ago that you’re living outside the US…”New York business community”, lol.
    It’s encouraging though that even you admit that the extreme ingroup/outgroup “morality” of many Muslims might have something to do with those rape gangs.

    Read More
    • Replies: @AaronB
    I never said that. It is my dream and intention to permanently move out of the US. And God willing I will do it soon. But for the time being I am stuck in sociopath-land, and must find what grim humor I can in it.

    Of course I accept that in group out group can become corrupted and lead to bad behavior. It's a dangerous thing. But it seems unavoidable, and may be the only shot at group love and sense of community most people have. We must use it wisely rather than discard it.
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  283. DFH says:
    @AaronB
    So he derives pleasure from doing the 'right's thing. It's a semantic distinction.

    If you are literally trying to suggest moral behavior is pleasureless behavior, then you are not just objectively wrong as people obviously get pleasure from it but you are also rendering it meaningless.

    Come to think of it, I seem to remember your way of thinking about morality is representative of certain European strains of thought - which would be one more piece of the puzzle of why Europe became so apathetic and European life so lustrerless and unappealing to high quality whites.

    Moral life disconnected from the reward system!

    Dmitry, can you point me out to philosophers or thinkers whom have this idea?

    Kant

    Read More
    • Replies: @AaronB
    Kant was the Categorical Imperative, was he not? That a moral law must apply to everyone in all circumstance?

    Did Kant think moral action carries no intrinsic reward and is just tautological - and thus nihilistic?

    I am genuinely curious.
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  284. AaronB says:
    @Dmitry

    Dmitry, the person who does the moral thing irrespective of external punishment or reward does so because the internal reward of doing so is experienced by him as far greater than any external punishment.
     
    It's not correct.

    (Although perhaps B. F. Skinner would like to reduce humanity to such a condition).

    Precisely the most moral person who would do it - if there was no internal reward, anymore than the lack of external reward.

    The concept of reward itself, results that the action would lose its specifically moral or transcendent component

    transcendent

    It sounds like you merely object to external earthly reward, like praise or money.

    But you recognize a spiritual reward.

    In any event, traditional religions do not understand it this way – they are constantly talking about the sheer bliss and peace and sense of blessedness that result from following their practices – and if morality became associated in the modern European mind with such pleasureless emptiness rather than the bliss giving happiness all the religions say it brings than it is no wonder religion is so widely rejected in the West! neurological

    Religion has become disconnected from the reward system in the European mjnd, and become utterly abstract and tautological- one does it because one does it. One is moral because one is moral. No happiness. No bliss.

    And your description of morality Dmitry is not meaningful – it is tautological.

    No wonder European life became so gloomy!

    Thank you Dmitry, you have helped me with a piece of the puzzle.

    Read More
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  285. AaronB says:
    @DFH
    Kant

    Kant was the Categorical Imperative, was he not? That a moral law must apply to everyone in all circumstance?

    Did Kant think moral action carries no intrinsic reward and is just tautological – and thus nihilistic?

    I am genuinely curious.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... T