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Opinion Poll: Nationalism Shifts North
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According to a recent BBC/Globescan opinion poll, Russia and Germany (sic!) are some of the most ethnically nationalistic major countries on the planet.

Here are some highlights from the full report (PDF):

Index of Rootless Cosmopolitanism

bbc-2016-poll-1-global-citizen

Curiously, the current pattern, in which the advanced/OECD nations (Canada, Chile, Germany, Mexico, Spain, UK, USA) have become more insular than non-OECD nations (Brazil, China, India, Indonesia, Kenya, Nigeria, Russia) is an inversion of the situation prior to 2009, when the opposite was more true. I suppose this might be because only around the late 2000s did the rich countries begin to “lose out” in a visible way to globalization.

This effect has been especially pronounced in Germany:

This sentiment has continued to grow at a strong pace since then among respondents in emerging economies to reach a high of 56 per cent in both 2015 and 2016. Conversely in seven OECD countries it has followed an opposite trajectory, dropping to a low of 39 per cent in 2011 and remaining at low levels since (now at 42%). This latter trend has been particularly pronounced in Germany where the poll suggests identification with global citizenship has dropped 13 points since 2009 to only 30 per cent today (the lowest since 2001).

Thanks Angela Merkel?

Approval of Intermarriage between Different Racial/Ethnic Groups

bbc-2016-poll-2-intermarriage

The US is no surprise here; since 1960, approval of interracial marriages has gone from from the fringe to the universal, including amongst evangelical conservatives.

In contrast, only 34% of Germans approve of interracial marriage, which is equivalent to US rates in the 1970s. This might come across as something of a surprise to people whose image of modern day Germany revolves around Alt Right cuckoldry rhetoric, but then again Germany also until quite recently had explicitly racial citizenship laws.

Russia is higher at 43%, but also considerably more Russians outright oppose it.

Perhaps the only more or less surprising figure here is from South Korea, where 66% approve of interracial marriage. Koreans are an extremely nationalistic people. I suppose one thing to bear in mind that in Korea and East Asia more generally “interracial marriage” means Whites/Europeans, whereas in the US the default assumption is that its with Blacks and in Europe, with Muslim ethnicities.

Approval of Immigration

bbc-2016-poll-3-immigration-acceptance

Worth noting that immigrants to Spain seem to be mainly elderly Brits and Germans buying up seaside retirement homes in the south, while many younger Spaniards themselves are emigrating in large numbers to the northern and more economically dynamic members of the EU.

Defining Criteria of Self-Identity

bbc-2016-poll-6-identity

There’s only three countries in which a plurality of citizens don’t feel the highest amount of identification with their national citizenship.

Most Spaniards think of themselves as world citizens.

A plurality of Pakistanis consider themselves Muslims first and foremost. This stands to reason and many or most other Muslim countries would display similar results.

More Indonesians on their thousands of islands identify most strongly with their local community.

The largest percentage of people identifying most strongly with their race or culture are in South Korea. As per above, this is of no surprise.

 
• Category: Ideology • Tags: Nationalism, Opinion Poll 
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  1. around the late 2000s did the rich countries begin to “lose out” in a visible way to globalization.

    This effect has been especially pronounced in Germany

    Ah, your logic again. Too bad that Germany was actually one of those countries that did not “lose out” around that time. For a while in the 90′s it was the sick man of Europe, but after 2000 the situation actually improved (even the worldwide economic crisis didn’t dent it too much) & it’s still going quite well.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
    I was speaking generally.

    On average, the emerging markets overtook the OECD in "rootless cosmopolitanism" around 2009.

    I suspect the turnaround for Germany was far more recent and linked with the events and developments often discussed on this site.
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  2. “This latter trend has been particularly pronounced in Germany where the poll suggests identification with global citizenship has dropped 13 points since 2009 to only 30 per cent today (the lowest since 2001).”
    I am not sure what this means. This could also be a result of an increasing ideological set-up which relies on a new, national, antiracist identity. Many people in Germany are extremely proud of being antiracist, taking in refugees etc. There is a new friend / enemy picture, something like: “outside there are the racists, the Russians, Trump-Americans etc. but we are now a Afro-Arabic country and proud of it, thats who we are”.

    “I suppose one thing to bear in mind that in Korea and East Asia more generally “interracial marriage” means Whites/Europeans, whereas in the US the default assumption is that its with Blacks and in Europe, with Muslim ethnicities”
    I guess most people in Europe associate with “interracial marriage” black men with white women, because this of course the by far most common combination.

    it is striking how proud subsaharan Africans seem to be of their one nation states, I have the impression they are also often very proud about the respective european connection their country has, e.g. Nigerians are proud to be somehow British, Senegalese are proud to be somehow French. Again post-colonial theories have nothing to do with reality.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Marcus

    Many people in Germany are extremely proud of being antiracist, taking in refugees etc.

     

    I agree, many Germans I've met on forums were very snooty about the uncivilized, racist US where college ed isn't free and white-robed police offers hunt down and shoot baby faced black "youths" for fun.

    this of course the by far most common combination.
     
    Not at all (except in media), the most common is Western man/E Asian woman. In Europe, it's men who can afford SE Asian mail-orders (some get E Euro ladies too, I remember meeting a rich German guy with Ukrainian wife). Thai women seem to be particularly popular in Scandinavia (can you blame them?).
    , @Jaakko Raipala
    Perhaps African results are influenced by sampling that's heavy on the urban population which in many cases speaks only English, French etc and identifies with the colonial culture that brought urban development and state organization to the region. Surveying the tribals in the countryside would require actually going there together with a translator and I seriously doubt the polling firm would actually do that.

    The PDF states that "Urban-only samples were used in Brazil, China, Indonesia, and Kenya" and Kenya is the country most strongly identifying with their country. It doesn't state that for other African countries but it still leaves the possibility that Ghana and Nigeria were heavily urban biased samples.

    Countries like China would be different because they had urban culture and states long before Europeans arrived in their shores.
    , @German_reader
    "Many people in Germany are extremely proud of being antiracist, taking in refugees etc. "

    Yes, but there's incrasingly a counter-movement of people who hate what's happening to Germany...why do you think people (myself included) are voting for the AfD? Official discourse and the media are of course laughably "antiracist" and it takes effort to resist that...but I suspect only 20% to at most a third of Germans are really firm believers in all this. A lot of people don't share those sentiments or are opposed, but given the political climate they'll only tell that to people they trust.
  3. @bossel

    around the late 2000s did the rich countries begin to “lose out” in a visible way to globalization.

    This effect has been especially pronounced in Germany
     
    Ah, your logic again. Too bad that Germany was actually one of those countries that did not "lose out" around that time. For a while in the 90's it was the sick man of Europe, but after 2000 the situation actually improved (even the worldwide economic crisis didn't dent it too much) & it's still going quite well.

    I was speaking generally.

    On average, the emerging markets overtook the OECD in “rootless cosmopolitanism” around 2009.

    I suspect the turnaround for Germany was far more recent and linked with the events and developments often discussed on this site.

    Read More
  4. @Erik Sieven
    "This latter trend has been particularly pronounced in Germany where the poll suggests identification with global citizenship has dropped 13 points since 2009 to only 30 per cent today (the lowest since 2001)."
    I am not sure what this means. This could also be a result of an increasing ideological set-up which relies on a new, national, antiracist identity. Many people in Germany are extremely proud of being antiracist, taking in refugees etc. There is a new friend / enemy picture, something like: "outside there are the racists, the Russians, Trump-Americans etc. but we are now a Afro-Arabic country and proud of it, thats who we are".

    "I suppose one thing to bear in mind that in Korea and East Asia more generally “interracial marriage” means Whites/Europeans, whereas in the US the default assumption is that its with Blacks and in Europe, with Muslim ethnicities"
    I guess most people in Europe associate with "interracial marriage" black men with white women, because this of course the by far most common combination.

    it is striking how proud subsaharan Africans seem to be of their one nation states, I have the impression they are also often very proud about the respective european connection their country has, e.g. Nigerians are proud to be somehow British, Senegalese are proud to be somehow French. Again post-colonial theories have nothing to do with reality.

    Many people in Germany are extremely proud of being antiracist, taking in refugees etc.

    I agree, many Germans I’ve met on forums were very snooty about the uncivilized, racist US where college ed isn’t free and white-robed police offers hunt down and shoot baby faced black “youths” for fun.

    this of course the by far most common combination.

    Not at all (except in media), the most common is Western man/E Asian woman. In Europe, it’s men who can afford SE Asian mail-orders (some get E Euro ladies too, I remember meeting a rich German guy with Ukrainian wife). Thai women seem to be particularly popular in Scandinavia (can you blame them?).

    Read More
  5. Anonymous says:     Show CommentNext New Comment

    71% of Chinese view themselves as “Global Citizens” and 76% approves of interracial marriage?? Didn’t expect that.

    But I guess the emphasis is on the “somewhat”.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Cagey Beast
    That jumped out at me too. Maybe the Chinese generally have the sense that one should be an internationalist because of communist teaching? My bet is this one-worlder spirit is much more theoretical than practical.
  6. @Erik Sieven
    "This latter trend has been particularly pronounced in Germany where the poll suggests identification with global citizenship has dropped 13 points since 2009 to only 30 per cent today (the lowest since 2001)."
    I am not sure what this means. This could also be a result of an increasing ideological set-up which relies on a new, national, antiracist identity. Many people in Germany are extremely proud of being antiracist, taking in refugees etc. There is a new friend / enemy picture, something like: "outside there are the racists, the Russians, Trump-Americans etc. but we are now a Afro-Arabic country and proud of it, thats who we are".

    "I suppose one thing to bear in mind that in Korea and East Asia more generally “interracial marriage” means Whites/Europeans, whereas in the US the default assumption is that its with Blacks and in Europe, with Muslim ethnicities"
    I guess most people in Europe associate with "interracial marriage" black men with white women, because this of course the by far most common combination.

    it is striking how proud subsaharan Africans seem to be of their one nation states, I have the impression they are also often very proud about the respective european connection their country has, e.g. Nigerians are proud to be somehow British, Senegalese are proud to be somehow French. Again post-colonial theories have nothing to do with reality.

    Perhaps African results are influenced by sampling that’s heavy on the urban population which in many cases speaks only English, French etc and identifies with the colonial culture that brought urban development and state organization to the region. Surveying the tribals in the countryside would require actually going there together with a translator and I seriously doubt the polling firm would actually do that.

    The PDF states that “Urban-only samples were used in Brazil, China, Indonesia, and Kenya” and Kenya is the country most strongly identifying with their country. It doesn’t state that for other African countries but it still leaves the possibility that Ghana and Nigeria were heavily urban biased samples.

    Countries like China would be different because they had urban culture and states long before Europeans arrived in their shores.

    Read More
    • Replies: @5371
    [Perhaps African results are influenced by sampling that’s heavy on the urban population which in many cases speaks only English, French etc and identifies with the colonial culture that brought urban development and state organization to the region. Surveying the tribals in the countryside would require actually going there together with a translator and I seriously doubt the polling firm would actually do that.]

    Obvious and devastating to the whole post, but only you mentioned it.
  7. Russians may be the most nationalistic people.
    Luckily the ruling president is an out-most cosmopolitan and has Caucasian fever.
    He just loves, loves loves Caucasians and can’t get more of them.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abkhazia#Adoption_of_Russian_nationality

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Ossetia#Integration_with_Russia

    Instead of building a wall on a Southern border, Russians grant citizenship to savage nations of Caucasus.

    Read More
    • Replies: @German_reader
    Are Ossetians really "savages"? I thought most of them were (at least nominally) Orthodox Christians, and that their image in Russia was vastly more positive than that of Chechnyans.
    , @Marcus
    Not just them, he's making it easier for all immigrants to stay there permanently http://en.kremlin.ru/acts/news/17280
    , @Glossy
    They're not savages. The peoples of the Caucasus, especially the Christians among them (that includes Ossetians and Abkhazians) are kind of like southern Italians. Having said that, it would be better for inter-ethnic peace, ethnic continuity on both sides and for a lot of other reasons if Putin's attitude to ethnic migration was more like the late Soviet attitude and less like the modern Western one. Right now it's somewhere in the middle.
  8. I find those results rather depressing, there seems to be little hope for Spain, France or the UK (let alone Canada) when most of their citizens seem to be thoroughly brain-washed adherents of globalism.
    As for Germany, I do find the results somewhat remarkable because official discourse for decades has been “nation states are obsolete, Germany will eventually be submerged in a larger pan-European entity”. Obviously a lot of Germans feel very differently.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Mitleser

    nation states are obsolete, Germany will eventually be submerged in a larger pan-European entity
     
    Nothing wrong with it as Germans would play an important role in such pan-European entity.
    It is the world citizen stuff that would be a problem.
    , @JamesWinstonSmith
    Danke fur sie comment.

    Do you find German_reader that the push including the hysterical Bild propaganda about Russian spetsnaz with their clever 'sistema' martial arts instructor covers in every burg is having any effect, or is it just making Germans more jaded about the lugenpresse?

    Do you think Mutti and the hardcore Atlanticists will be able to cite AfD meetings with Russian embassy or politicians/junkets to Crimea reported by Der Spiegel as a pretext to start shutting AfD down or trying to ban them? The same for PEGIDA? Seems like transitioning from soft PC to harder tyranny is going to be hard to pull off in a country like Germany where everybody knows what repressive regimes do and don't do, regardless of the PC 'anti-racist' or 'pro-American' pretext.
  9. What people know is the “right thing to say”, and what they actually believe, are very different things.

    For example, Indians must be amongst the most endogamous people on the planet, but it doesn’t show in their response to the intermarriage question.

    The results of the Brexit referendum will be an interesting check on the reliability of such attitudes surveys.

    Read More
  10. @Aixa
    Russians may be the most nationalistic people.
    Luckily the ruling president is an out-most cosmopolitan and has Caucasian fever.
    He just loves, loves loves Caucasians and can't get more of them.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abkhazia#Adoption_of_Russian_nationality
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Ossetia#Integration_with_Russia

    Instead of building a wall on a Southern border, Russians grant citizenship to savage nations of Caucasus.

    Are Ossetians really “savages”? I thought most of them were (at least nominally) Orthodox Christians, and that their image in Russia was vastly more positive than that of Chechnyans.

    Read More
    • Replies: @JamesWinstonSmith
    Yep. This is why lumping all 'Caucasians' together makes about as much sense as using Caucasian here in the U.S. as a euphemism for 'white', which always cracks up Russians used to the militsiya now politsya phrase 'persons of Caucasian nationality'. Azeris aren't Armenians who aren't Georgians who aren't Ossetians or Abkhaz. Would Gagaúzia as Turkic peoples also count as honorary Caucasians like Tatars? Especially when not if the EU collapses Romania makes a neocon addled play for Moldova and in that bad scenario, Gagaúzia becomes the next Donbass with lotsa guns and explosives from Transnistria?
  11. @Erik Sieven
    "This latter trend has been particularly pronounced in Germany where the poll suggests identification with global citizenship has dropped 13 points since 2009 to only 30 per cent today (the lowest since 2001)."
    I am not sure what this means. This could also be a result of an increasing ideological set-up which relies on a new, national, antiracist identity. Many people in Germany are extremely proud of being antiracist, taking in refugees etc. There is a new friend / enemy picture, something like: "outside there are the racists, the Russians, Trump-Americans etc. but we are now a Afro-Arabic country and proud of it, thats who we are".

    "I suppose one thing to bear in mind that in Korea and East Asia more generally “interracial marriage” means Whites/Europeans, whereas in the US the default assumption is that its with Blacks and in Europe, with Muslim ethnicities"
    I guess most people in Europe associate with "interracial marriage" black men with white women, because this of course the by far most common combination.

    it is striking how proud subsaharan Africans seem to be of their one nation states, I have the impression they are also often very proud about the respective european connection their country has, e.g. Nigerians are proud to be somehow British, Senegalese are proud to be somehow French. Again post-colonial theories have nothing to do with reality.

    “Many people in Germany are extremely proud of being antiracist, taking in refugees etc. ”

    Yes, but there’s incrasingly a counter-movement of people who hate what’s happening to Germany…why do you think people (myself included) are voting for the AfD? Official discourse and the media are of course laughably “antiracist” and it takes effort to resist that…but I suspect only 20% to at most a third of Germans are really firm believers in all this. A lot of people don’t share those sentiments or are opposed, but given the political climate they’ll only tell that to people they trust.

    Read More
    • Replies: @tbraton
    "but I suspect only 20% to at most a third of Germans are really firm believers in all this."

    Well, that is certainly a relief. For a while there, I thought the entire country of Germany had gone truly insane, as compared to 30-40% here in the U.S. When do you expect to see any sanity restored to the political process in Germany?
  12. @Aixa
    Russians may be the most nationalistic people.
    Luckily the ruling president is an out-most cosmopolitan and has Caucasian fever.
    He just loves, loves loves Caucasians and can't get more of them.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abkhazia#Adoption_of_Russian_nationality
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Ossetia#Integration_with_Russia

    Instead of building a wall on a Southern border, Russians grant citizenship to savage nations of Caucasus.

    Not just them, he’s making it easier for all immigrants to stay there permanently http://en.kremlin.ru/acts/news/17280

    Read More
    • Replies: @Mitleser
    Not really: http://en.kremlin.ru/catalog/keywords/104/events/20819
    , @Anatoly Karlin
    ... which will benefit refugees from Ukraine the most.
  13. Most of interracial marriage in South Korea consists of korean farmers who are prosperous, but unappealing to korean women, going to Vietnam or other parts of SE Asia and bringing a bride from there.
    This is a budding HBD problem because the children perform abysmally in the highly competitive korean education system (same problem with the children born in SK of migrant couples) and calls are being made to replace the meritocratic system with affirmative action.
    I believe that koreans are endogamous regarding korean women and exogamous when is about korean men.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Blinky Bill
    I believe that Koreans are exogamous regarding Korean women and endogamous when is about Korean men. Asian Korean men marrying Asian Vietnamese women, while Asian Korean women marrying European Anglo men. When a German man marries a Italian women thats not exogamous marriage, European marrying European.
  14. Somehow I have persistent problems with comments disappearing on this blog (right now I can only see three readers’ comments though before there were a dozen)…they usually come back after some time, but it’s kind of annoying. Only have this problem on this blog, rest of the site works fine.

    Read More
  15. @Jaakko Raipala
    Perhaps African results are influenced by sampling that's heavy on the urban population which in many cases speaks only English, French etc and identifies with the colonial culture that brought urban development and state organization to the region. Surveying the tribals in the countryside would require actually going there together with a translator and I seriously doubt the polling firm would actually do that.

    The PDF states that "Urban-only samples were used in Brazil, China, Indonesia, and Kenya" and Kenya is the country most strongly identifying with their country. It doesn't state that for other African countries but it still leaves the possibility that Ghana and Nigeria were heavily urban biased samples.

    Countries like China would be different because they had urban culture and states long before Europeans arrived in their shores.

    [Perhaps African results are influenced by sampling that’s heavy on the urban population which in many cases speaks only English, French etc and identifies with the colonial culture that brought urban development and state organization to the region. Surveying the tribals in the countryside would require actually going there together with a translator and I seriously doubt the polling firm would actually do that.]

    Obvious and devastating to the whole post, but only you mentioned it.

    Read More
  16. Anonymous says:     Show CommentNext New Comment

    It’s not that surprising considering Germany had the most nationalistic regime in history not that long ago.

    Read More
  17. @German_reader
    I find those results rather depressing, there seems to be little hope for Spain, France or the UK (let alone Canada) when most of their citizens seem to be thoroughly brain-washed adherents of globalism.
    As for Germany, I do find the results somewhat remarkable because official discourse for decades has been "nation states are obsolete, Germany will eventually be submerged in a larger pan-European entity". Obviously a lot of Germans feel very differently.

    nation states are obsolete, Germany will eventually be submerged in a larger pan-European entity

    Nothing wrong with it as Germans would play an important role in such pan-European entity.
    It is the world citizen stuff that would be a problem.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Erik Sieven
    actually I would prefer all important questions regarding central Europe decided together by rather sensible Poles and Hungarians and crazy Germans than by crazy Germans alone. Specifically a little bit "more Europe" and less national sole action would have prevented a lot of what happened last year in Germany
  18. @Marcus
    Not just them, he's making it easier for all immigrants to stay there permanently http://en.kremlin.ru/acts/news/17280
    Read More
  19. Anonymous says:     Show CommentNext New Comment

    I suppose one thing to bear in mind that in Korea and East Asia more generally “interracial marriage” means Whites/Europeans, whereas in the US the default assumption is that its with Blacks and in Europe, with Muslim ethnicities.

    Wouldn’t that be interethnic marriage in Europe then, not interracial, since the Muslim ethnicities are racially Caucasian?

    Read More
  20. Very interesting results. My interpretetaion of the German results (as a German) is that interethnic marriage in Germany is mostly seen as German-Turkish marriages. There are several hurdles for this. First of all Turks in Germany don’t like to outmarry as much as other immigrant communities in other European countries, and therefore a German higher antipathy to it is the consequence of this. Non Turkish extraeuropeans are rare in Germany, but increasing due to Merkel’s lunacy.

    Unfortunately they haven’t polled Japan. Would be interesting to see their stance.

    I don’t know about Spain, but I can imagine that interracial in Spain means Spaniards marrying Latin Americans.

    Read More
    • Replies: @JamesWinstonSmith
    You mean Turkish women (usually the most attractive of the bunch) marrying German males to escape Islam?

    Though lately it might mean marrying German men after they've converted to Islam...
  21. @Aixa
    Russians may be the most nationalistic people.
    Luckily the ruling president is an out-most cosmopolitan and has Caucasian fever.
    He just loves, loves loves Caucasians and can't get more of them.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abkhazia#Adoption_of_Russian_nationality
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Ossetia#Integration_with_Russia

    Instead of building a wall on a Southern border, Russians grant citizenship to savage nations of Caucasus.

    They’re not savages. The peoples of the Caucasus, especially the Christians among them (that includes Ossetians and Abkhazians) are kind of like southern Italians. Having said that, it would be better for inter-ethnic peace, ethnic continuity on both sides and for a lot of other reasons if Putin’s attitude to ethnic migration was more like the late Soviet attitude and less like the modern Western one. Right now it’s somewhere in the middle.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Immigrant from former USSR
    Hello, dear Glossy ! I hope you will have fun reading this:

    Игорь Губерман.

    Вечно и нисколько не старея,
    всюду и в любое время года
    длится, где сойдутся два еврея,
    спор о судьбах русского народа.

    Russian-Jewish poet Igor Guberman.
    I (I.f.f.U.) tried to translate it for public entertainment:

    Always, with sound like a news,
    Everywhere, any year’s season,
    If together meet two random Jews,
    Russian People’s fate they start to reason.
    , @5371
    Why do you think Putin is more favourably disposed to non-white migration than Brezhnev? The latter used to strenuously deny in public that the different fertility rates of, e.g. Russians and Uzbeks were a problem.
    , @Anonymous
    lmfao

    Why does every Middle Easterner/South Asian/Latino always compare themselves to Italians? I feel bad for Italians and other Mediterranean Europeans because brown people are always imitating them.
  22. @Anonymous
    71% of Chinese view themselves as "Global Citizens" and 76% approves of interracial marriage?? Didn't expect that.

    But I guess the emphasis is on the "somewhat".

    That jumped out at me too. Maybe the Chinese generally have the sense that one should be an internationalist because of communist teaching? My bet is this one-worlder spirit is much more theoretical than practical.

    Read More
  23. Map of the answers to the question “should society accept homosexuality?”:

    https://mobile.twitter.com/i/status/598136953738031104/photo/1

    Spain is number one with 88%! So something is happening there. It’s the most cucked country, at least if one believes the polls.

    OT: The Trump campaign got a new manager a few weeks ago, a guy named Paul Manafort. He once worked for Yanukovich. I had two reactions when I read this:

    1) What use could a US campaign manager be in the Ukraine? None at all. He would be useless even in Britain. The political cultures are too different even if you disregard the language barrier. It’s not like coaching a soccer team – the ball is round everywhere, the rules are the same, etc. Politics is very country-specific.

    2) It’s almost certainly a coincidence, but what if? This guy has already worked for the Kremlin side (more or less) in Cold War II, maybe the people in the Kremlin (or wherever) have come to trust him, the Trump campiagn needed a more experienced hand… I’m veering into fantasy here. But one more such coincidence and I’ll start taking that seriously.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Glossy
    In America campaign managers never switch parties. At least that's my impression. A guy like that either runs only Dem campaign or only GOP campaigns. So the political community thinks of them as team players, not as atomized free agents. Well, globally, if we simplify a lot, boiling everything down to a binary choice, Yanukovich and Trump ARE on the same team, the anti-neocon one. Doesn't mean it's not a coincidence of course.
    , @5371
    Lots of US pollsters work for campaigns all around the world, including the ex-USSR; a Clinton hack called Stan Greenberg is one who comes to mind. I think their employers hope the people they know can be useful; they themselves just enjoy the easy $.
  24. @Glossy
    Map of the answers to the question "should society accept homosexuality?":

    https://mobile.twitter.com/i/status/598136953738031104/photo/1

    Spain is number one with 88%! So something is happening there. It's the most cucked country, at least if one believes the polls.

    OT: The Trump campaign got a new manager a few weeks ago, a guy named Paul Manafort. He once worked for Yanukovich. I had two reactions when I read this:

    1) What use could a US campaign manager be in the Ukraine? None at all. He would be useless even in Britain. The political cultures are too different even if you disregard the language barrier. It's not like coaching a soccer team - the ball is round everywhere, the rules are the same, etc. Politics is very country-specific.

    2) It's almost certainly a coincidence, but what if? This guy has already worked for the Kremlin side (more or less) in Cold War II, maybe the people in the Kremlin (or wherever) have come to trust him, the Trump campiagn needed a more experienced hand... I'm veering into fantasy here. But one more such coincidence and I'll start taking that seriously.

    In America campaign managers never switch parties. At least that’s my impression. A guy like that either runs only Dem campaign or only GOP campaigns. So the political community thinks of them as team players, not as atomized free agents. Well, globally, if we simplify a lot, boiling everything down to a binary choice, Yanukovich and Trump ARE on the same team, the anti-neocon one. Doesn’t mean it’s not a coincidence of course.

    Read More
    • Replies: @AP
    Manafort has also worked for people supported by neocons:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Manafort#Lobbying_career
  25. @Marcus
    Not just them, he's making it easier for all immigrants to stay there permanently http://en.kremlin.ru/acts/news/17280

    … which will benefit refugees from Ukraine the most.

    Read More
  26. @Glossy
    They're not savages. The peoples of the Caucasus, especially the Christians among them (that includes Ossetians and Abkhazians) are kind of like southern Italians. Having said that, it would be better for inter-ethnic peace, ethnic continuity on both sides and for a lot of other reasons if Putin's attitude to ethnic migration was more like the late Soviet attitude and less like the modern Western one. Right now it's somewhere in the middle.

    Hello, dear Glossy ! I hope you will have fun reading this:

    Игорь Губерман.

    Вечно и нисколько не старея,
    всюду и в любое время года
    длится, где сойдутся два еврея,
    спор о судьбах русского народа.

    Russian-Jewish poet Igor Guberman.
    I (I.f.f.U.) tried to translate it for public entertainment:

    Always, with sound like a news,
    Everywhere, any year’s season,
    If together meet two random Jews,
    Russian People’s fate they start to reason.

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  27. @German_reader
    Are Ossetians really "savages"? I thought most of them were (at least nominally) Orthodox Christians, and that their image in Russia was vastly more positive than that of Chechnyans.

    Yep. This is why lumping all ‘Caucasians’ together makes about as much sense as using Caucasian here in the U.S. as a euphemism for ‘white’, which always cracks up Russians used to the militsiya now politsya phrase ‘persons of Caucasian nationality’. Azeris aren’t Armenians who aren’t Georgians who aren’t Ossetians or Abkhaz. Would Gagaúzia as Turkic peoples also count as honorary Caucasians like Tatars? Especially when not if the EU collapses Romania makes a neocon addled play for Moldova and in that bad scenario, Gagaúzia becomes the next Donbass with lotsa guns and explosives from Transnistria?

    Read More
  28. @German_reader
    I find those results rather depressing, there seems to be little hope for Spain, France or the UK (let alone Canada) when most of their citizens seem to be thoroughly brain-washed adherents of globalism.
    As for Germany, I do find the results somewhat remarkable because official discourse for decades has been "nation states are obsolete, Germany will eventually be submerged in a larger pan-European entity". Obviously a lot of Germans feel very differently.

    Danke fur sie comment.

    Do you find German_reader that the push including the hysterical Bild propaganda about Russian spetsnaz with their clever ‘sistema’ martial arts instructor covers in every burg is having any effect, or is it just making Germans more jaded about the lugenpresse?

    Do you think Mutti and the hardcore Atlanticists will be able to cite AfD meetings with Russian embassy or politicians/junkets to Crimea reported by Der Spiegel as a pretext to start shutting AfD down or trying to ban them? The same for PEGIDA? Seems like transitioning from soft PC to harder tyranny is going to be hard to pull off in a country like Germany where everybody knows what repressive regimes do and don’t do, regardless of the PC ‘anti-racist’ or ‘pro-American’ pretext.

    Read More
    • Replies: @German_reader
    Don't see how the establishment could outlaw the AfD (even though they would probably like to), the German constitution makes it fairly difficult to outlaw political parties (happened only two times in the history of the federal republic, and that was back in the 1950s). Even attempts to outlaw the NPD have been unsuccessful, and that's obviously a Nazi party. So I don't think the AfD is in any danger of being prohibited, though its somewhat pro-Russian stance will certainly be used to smear it.
    No idea how effective BILD is in influencing German perceptions of Russia...I don't talk to BILD readers :-)
  29. @Cicerone
    Very interesting results. My interpretetaion of the German results (as a German) is that interethnic marriage in Germany is mostly seen as German-Turkish marriages. There are several hurdles for this. First of all Turks in Germany don't like to outmarry as much as other immigrant communities in other European countries, and therefore a German higher antipathy to it is the consequence of this. Non Turkish extraeuropeans are rare in Germany, but increasing due to Merkel's lunacy.

    Unfortunately they haven't polled Japan. Would be interesting to see their stance.

    I don't know about Spain, but I can imagine that interracial in Spain means Spaniards marrying Latin Americans.

    You mean Turkish women (usually the most attractive of the bunch) marrying German males to escape Islam?

    Though lately it might mean marrying German men after they’ve converted to Islam…

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  30. @Glossy
    They're not savages. The peoples of the Caucasus, especially the Christians among them (that includes Ossetians and Abkhazians) are kind of like southern Italians. Having said that, it would be better for inter-ethnic peace, ethnic continuity on both sides and for a lot of other reasons if Putin's attitude to ethnic migration was more like the late Soviet attitude and less like the modern Western one. Right now it's somewhere in the middle.

    Why do you think Putin is more favourably disposed to non-white migration than Brezhnev? The latter used to strenuously deny in public that the different fertility rates of, e.g. Russians and Uzbeks were a problem.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Glossy
    Putin's attitude to homosexuality is also somewhere between the late Soviet one and the modern Western one. The degree of confrontation with the West is lower than in Brezhnev's time but higher than under Yeltsin. Maybe this is just who Putin is - USSR lite, "Western values" with a human face, one foot here, one foot there.

    Also, I doubt he knows what ethnic diversity feels like. He saw very little of it in his youth and young adulthood, and by the time it arrived in Moscow he was already insulated from its negative effects by his high position.

  31. @Glossy
    Map of the answers to the question "should society accept homosexuality?":

    https://mobile.twitter.com/i/status/598136953738031104/photo/1

    Spain is number one with 88%! So something is happening there. It's the most cucked country, at least if one believes the polls.

    OT: The Trump campaign got a new manager a few weeks ago, a guy named Paul Manafort. He once worked for Yanukovich. I had two reactions when I read this:

    1) What use could a US campaign manager be in the Ukraine? None at all. He would be useless even in Britain. The political cultures are too different even if you disregard the language barrier. It's not like coaching a soccer team - the ball is round everywhere, the rules are the same, etc. Politics is very country-specific.

    2) It's almost certainly a coincidence, but what if? This guy has already worked for the Kremlin side (more or less) in Cold War II, maybe the people in the Kremlin (or wherever) have come to trust him, the Trump campiagn needed a more experienced hand... I'm veering into fantasy here. But one more such coincidence and I'll start taking that seriously.

    Lots of US pollsters work for campaigns all around the world, including the ex-USSR; a Clinton hack called Stan Greenberg is one who comes to mind. I think their employers hope the people they know can be useful; they themselves just enjoy the easy $.

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  32. @Pseudonymic Handle
    Most of interracial marriage in South Korea consists of korean farmers who are prosperous, but unappealing to korean women, going to Vietnam or other parts of SE Asia and bringing a bride from there.
    This is a budding HBD problem because the children perform abysmally in the highly competitive korean education system (same problem with the children born in SK of migrant couples) and calls are being made to replace the meritocratic system with affirmative action.
    I believe that koreans are endogamous regarding korean women and exogamous when is about korean men.

    I believe that Koreans are exogamous regarding Korean women and endogamous when is about Korean men. Asian Korean men marrying Asian Vietnamese women, while Asian Korean women marrying European Anglo men. When a German man marries a Italian women thats not exogamous marriage, European marrying European.

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  33. Anonymous says:     Show CommentNext New Comment

    Approval of marriage between different racial or ethnic groups is a loaded question because it is not specific.

    In the west we perceive this to mean white or black or brown or yellow mixing.

    In Korea this might mean Korean and Chinese or Vietnamese mixing because Koreans may see them as a distinct people. I don’t think people should perceive this as Koreans approving of mixing with white people.

    This would explain the disparity in the data set.

    Read More
  34. anonymous says:     Show CommentNext New Comment

    Under the dictatorship of PC people in the US (can’t comment on Canada, Spain or the rest) usually state what they believe they’re supposed to think. However, the US is full of suburbs to which the same people move to, often from one to another, in order to get away from diversity. That’s what suburbs are for. The further away from diversity a place is the more desirable it is and the more expensive the bidding makes it. Why else do people spend so much time driving around to their jobs and then to the mall? What people say and do, or would like to do, are two different things. Without the government heavy-handedly forcing social engineering and instituting a brainwashing regimen within the entire educational system, just lifting it’s hand from the scale, in thirty years the US would evolve to super-segregated neighborhoods with just sprinklings of unobjectionable others.

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  35. @Mitleser

    nation states are obsolete, Germany will eventually be submerged in a larger pan-European entity
     
    Nothing wrong with it as Germans would play an important role in such pan-European entity.
    It is the world citizen stuff that would be a problem.

    actually I would prefer all important questions regarding central Europe decided together by rather sensible Poles and Hungarians and crazy Germans than by crazy Germans alone. Specifically a little bit “more Europe” and less national sole action would have prevented a lot of what happened last year in Germany

    Read More
    • Replies: @Mitleser
    You have first to find "sensible Poles and Hungarians".
    PiS Poles and King Orbán his most loyal subjects do not count.
  36. @Erik Sieven
    actually I would prefer all important questions regarding central Europe decided together by rather sensible Poles and Hungarians and crazy Germans than by crazy Germans alone. Specifically a little bit "more Europe" and less national sole action would have prevented a lot of what happened last year in Germany

    You have first to find “sensible Poles and Hungarians”.
    PiS Poles and King Orbán his most loyal subjects do not count.

    Read More
    • Replies: @szopen
    I am Polish - do you try to offend us? DO you try to imply that there are no sensible Poles?
    , @German_reader
    Don't know, Poles, Czechs and Hungarians seem a lot more sensible to me than (West) German do-gooders with their stupid illusions.
  37. @5371
    Why do you think Putin is more favourably disposed to non-white migration than Brezhnev? The latter used to strenuously deny in public that the different fertility rates of, e.g. Russians and Uzbeks were a problem.

    Putin’s attitude to homosexuality is also somewhere between the late Soviet one and the modern Western one. The degree of confrontation with the West is lower than in Brezhnev’s time but higher than under Yeltsin. Maybe this is just who Putin is – USSR lite, “Western values” with a human face, one foot here, one foot there.

    Also, I doubt he knows what ethnic diversity feels like. He saw very little of it in his youth and young adulthood, and by the time it arrived in Moscow he was already insulated from its negative effects by his high position.

    Read More
  38. @Mitleser
    You have first to find "sensible Poles and Hungarians".
    PiS Poles and King Orbán his most loyal subjects do not count.

    I am Polish – do you try to offend us? DO you try to imply that there are no sensible Poles?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Mitleser
    Of course, there are sensible Poles, but they are not in-charge.
  39. @Glossy
    In America campaign managers never switch parties. At least that's my impression. A guy like that either runs only Dem campaign or only GOP campaigns. So the political community thinks of them as team players, not as atomized free agents. Well, globally, if we simplify a lot, boiling everything down to a binary choice, Yanukovich and Trump ARE on the same team, the anti-neocon one. Doesn't mean it's not a coincidence of course.

    Manafort has also worked for people supported by neocons:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Manafort#Lobbying_career

    Read More
    • Replies: @Glossy
    Yes, I now see that he's been all over the place, even working for McCain at some point. But his Yanukovich work was recent. Maybe he signed up with the anti-neocon team recently.

    Or, more likely, he's just a hired gun with no orientation beyond Republicanism in the US, which does not have to be ideological at all - in US politics a campaign consultant simply has to pick one side and stick with it.

  40. @szopen
    I am Polish - do you try to offend us? DO you try to imply that there are no sensible Poles?

    Of course, there are sensible Poles, but they are not in-charge.

    Read More
  41. @JamesWinstonSmith
    Danke fur sie comment.

    Do you find German_reader that the push including the hysterical Bild propaganda about Russian spetsnaz with their clever 'sistema' martial arts instructor covers in every burg is having any effect, or is it just making Germans more jaded about the lugenpresse?

    Do you think Mutti and the hardcore Atlanticists will be able to cite AfD meetings with Russian embassy or politicians/junkets to Crimea reported by Der Spiegel as a pretext to start shutting AfD down or trying to ban them? The same for PEGIDA? Seems like transitioning from soft PC to harder tyranny is going to be hard to pull off in a country like Germany where everybody knows what repressive regimes do and don't do, regardless of the PC 'anti-racist' or 'pro-American' pretext.

    Don’t see how the establishment could outlaw the AfD (even though they would probably like to), the German constitution makes it fairly difficult to outlaw political parties (happened only two times in the history of the federal republic, and that was back in the 1950s). Even attempts to outlaw the NPD have been unsuccessful, and that’s obviously a Nazi party. So I don’t think the AfD is in any danger of being prohibited, though its somewhat pro-Russian stance will certainly be used to smear it.
    No idea how effective BILD is in influencing German perceptions of Russia…I don’t talk to BILD readers :-)

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  42. @Mitleser
    You have first to find "sensible Poles and Hungarians".
    PiS Poles and King Orbán his most loyal subjects do not count.

    Don’t know, Poles, Czechs and Hungarians seem a lot more sensible to me than (West) German do-gooders with their stupid illusions.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Mitleser
    That makes sense.
    Many of the sensible Hungarians and Poles have left their home countries for Germany.
  43. @German_reader
    Don't know, Poles, Czechs and Hungarians seem a lot more sensible to me than (West) German do-gooders with their stupid illusions.

    That makes sense.
    Many of the sensible Hungarians and Poles have left their home countries for Germany.

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  44. The Spanish poll results reminded me of Whit Stillman’s movie “Barcelona”. One of its characters says that the sexual revolution arrived in Spain late (after Franco’s death and Juan Carlos’s Gorby-like treachery), but that when it did arrive, it was much more complete than in America.

    These poll results suggest that this is true not just of the sexual revolution, but of the entire leftist package of ideas and attitudes.

    Why did Spain turn out to be even more vulnerable to all of this than Sweden? That I don’t know.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Nico

    Why did Spain turn out to be even more vulnerable to all of this than Sweden? That I don’t know.
     
    Similar trajectories were followed by Brittany, Ireland and Quebec over more or less the same period. The clash between the ultramontanist Roman Catholic ideal and the pressures of modernization led to a clericalist reaction that preserved these islets from the revolutions taking place in the seas around them but just exhausted the people. The apparent spiritual health was an illusion which also led to illusions about the state of their societies and psychologies. As soon as the initial breech was made, the collapse of the societal tissue was much quicker and more complete than it had been elsewhere.

    Italy has also suffered cultural damage especially in the 1970s but Italian society emerged more intact because the chaos latent in the Italian created from the Risorgimento preserved the traditional societal tensions of the past, whereupon the Church remained an integral and powerful part of Italian life but still clawing for its life at all times. And Poland is easily the best-preserved of large European Catholic societies, perhaps because Catholicism was able to stand as a bulwark against the enemy in a more visible form (Bolshevism) than what was rotting away at the people elsewhere.

    , @jimmyriddle
    The puzzling thing is the relaxed attitude to Muslim immigration.

    The Swedish naivety can be explained by their lack of any historic experience. But I would have thought that the folk memory of Arab rule would persist in Spain.

    It's only 80 years since Franco used Moroccans to overthrow the Republic - one of the verses of the famous Song "Ay Carmella" is :

    Luchamos contra los moros,
    mercenarios y fascistas

    But, apparently not.

    , @German_reader
    Can't really tell since I'm not Spanish, but hasn't the left in Spain long had a romanticised view of Islam (the myth of tolerant, enlightened al-Andalus), related to its anti-Catholicism (and bizarrely enough, even right-wingers claimed during the colonial era that Spaniards and Moroccans were basically the same people)? Also, Spanish nationalism has traditionally been rather weak.
  45. @AP
    Manafort has also worked for people supported by neocons:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Manafort#Lobbying_career

    Yes, I now see that he’s been all over the place, even working for McCain at some point. But his Yanukovich work was recent. Maybe he signed up with the anti-neocon team recently.

    Or, more likely, he’s just a hired gun with no orientation beyond Republicanism in the US, which does not have to be ideological at all – in US politics a campaign consultant simply has to pick one side and stick with it.

    Read More
    • Replies: @AP
    Other than Republicanism the common thread seems to be that he likes authoritarian "underdogs" and the challenge of polishing their image in respectable circles. Trump seems to meet both criteria.
  46. @German_reader
    "Many people in Germany are extremely proud of being antiracist, taking in refugees etc. "

    Yes, but there's incrasingly a counter-movement of people who hate what's happening to Germany...why do you think people (myself included) are voting for the AfD? Official discourse and the media are of course laughably "antiracist" and it takes effort to resist that...but I suspect only 20% to at most a third of Germans are really firm believers in all this. A lot of people don't share those sentiments or are opposed, but given the political climate they'll only tell that to people they trust.

    “but I suspect only 20% to at most a third of Germans are really firm believers in all this.”

    Well, that is certainly a relief. For a while there, I thought the entire country of Germany had gone truly insane, as compared to 30-40% here in the U.S. When do you expect to see any sanity restored to the political process in Germany?

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    • Replies: @German_reader
    Hard to tell. The AfD's steadily making gains, but is totally demonised by the entire establishment (parties, the media, churches, trade unions etc.)...and attacked by violent antifa types. Even if the AfD managed to win 15-20% of the vote in the federal elections in 2017 (probably the maximum that might be realistic at least in the near future), the result would probably just be the established parties entering a coalition in a united front against the right-wing "threat". That's already happened after the three state elections in March...in Baden-Württemberg the supposedly conservative Christian Democrats have even entered a coalition (as junior partner) with the leftist Greens.
    I don't really see any change unless the existing party system is overturned; above all the Christian Democrats must be crushed at elections and punished for their servile support of Merkel. But that will take time, and of course tremendous damage has already been done and will be very hard to reverse.
  47. @Glossy
    The Spanish poll results reminded me of Whit Stillman's movie "Barcelona". One of its characters says that the sexual revolution arrived in Spain late (after Franco's death and Juan Carlos's Gorby-like treachery), but that when it did arrive, it was much more complete than in America.

    These poll results suggest that this is true not just of the sexual revolution, but of the entire leftist package of ideas and attitudes.

    Why did Spain turn out to be even more vulnerable to all of this than Sweden? That I don't know.

    Why did Spain turn out to be even more vulnerable to all of this than Sweden? That I don’t know.

    Similar trajectories were followed by Brittany, Ireland and Quebec over more or less the same period. The clash between the ultramontanist Roman Catholic ideal and the pressures of modernization led to a clericalist reaction that preserved these islets from the revolutions taking place in the seas around them but just exhausted the people. The apparent spiritual health was an illusion which also led to illusions about the state of their societies and psychologies. As soon as the initial breech was made, the collapse of the societal tissue was much quicker and more complete than it had been elsewhere.

    Italy has also suffered cultural damage especially in the 1970s but Italian society emerged more intact because the chaos latent in the Italian created from the Risorgimento preserved the traditional societal tensions of the past, whereupon the Church remained an integral and powerful part of Italian life but still clawing for its life at all times. And Poland is easily the best-preserved of large European Catholic societies, perhaps because Catholicism was able to stand as a bulwark against the enemy in a more visible form (Bolshevism) than what was rotting away at the people elsewhere.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Glossy
    By the time Communism reached Poland, it was already socially conservative. The USSR was socially-liberal and culturally-Marxist before the mid-1930s. After that there was a turn towards conservatism. Homosexuality was re-banned in 1935, the state's relations with the Russian Orthodox Church were normalized in 1943, school grades were reinstated in 1935, etc. Divorce was extremely rare in the post-WWII USSR, while drugs, gambling and prostitution did not exist at all.

    The Poles hated the Warsaw Pact period because they hate Russians as a people, not because that period was socially destructive for them. In fact their current conservstism is much more a Soviet legacy than a Catholic one - Spain, France and Italy are historically-Catholic too, and look at them for comparison.

    Poles hate Russians as a people because Russians took away their empire in the 17th and 18th centuries. There was a long struggle to unite the region. Poland was winning it for several centuries but then lost it to Russia.

    The Poles have never forgotten or forgiven this. They had unrealistic dreams of recreating their empire from the Baltic to the Black Seas during the interwar period. The neocons (look up George Freidman of Stratfor) are again nourishing these sorts of dreams in them right now.
  48. @Nico

    Why did Spain turn out to be even more vulnerable to all of this than Sweden? That I don’t know.
     
    Similar trajectories were followed by Brittany, Ireland and Quebec over more or less the same period. The clash between the ultramontanist Roman Catholic ideal and the pressures of modernization led to a clericalist reaction that preserved these islets from the revolutions taking place in the seas around them but just exhausted the people. The apparent spiritual health was an illusion which also led to illusions about the state of their societies and psychologies. As soon as the initial breech was made, the collapse of the societal tissue was much quicker and more complete than it had been elsewhere.

    Italy has also suffered cultural damage especially in the 1970s but Italian society emerged more intact because the chaos latent in the Italian created from the Risorgimento preserved the traditional societal tensions of the past, whereupon the Church remained an integral and powerful part of Italian life but still clawing for its life at all times. And Poland is easily the best-preserved of large European Catholic societies, perhaps because Catholicism was able to stand as a bulwark against the enemy in a more visible form (Bolshevism) than what was rotting away at the people elsewhere.

    By the time Communism reached Poland, it was already socially conservative. The USSR was socially-liberal and culturally-Marxist before the mid-1930s. After that there was a turn towards conservatism. Homosexuality was re-banned in 1935, the state’s relations with the Russian Orthodox Church were normalized in 1943, school grades were reinstated in 1935, etc. Divorce was extremely rare in the post-WWII USSR, while drugs, gambling and prostitution did not exist at all.

    The Poles hated the Warsaw Pact period because they hate Russians as a people, not because that period was socially destructive for them. In fact their current conservstism is much more a Soviet legacy than a Catholic one – Spain, France and Italy are historically-Catholic too, and look at them for comparison.

    Poles hate Russians as a people because Russians took away their empire in the 17th and 18th centuries. There was a long struggle to unite the region. Poland was winning it for several centuries but then lost it to Russia.

    The Poles have never forgotten or forgiven this. They had unrealistic dreams of recreating their empire from the Baltic to the Black Seas during the interwar period. The neocons (look up George Freidman of Stratfor) are again nourishing these sorts of dreams in them right now.

    Read More
    • Agree: Andrei Martyanov, Nico
    • Replies: @Glossy
    East Germany is less immigrant-friendly than West Germany, Poland and Hungary are rebels in the EU - that's all a legacy of the Warsaw Pact period, which was culturally-conservative in a secular way and immigration-free. This legacy will probably fade once the generations that were formed in those countries during that period pass away.
  49. @Glossy
    By the time Communism reached Poland, it was already socially conservative. The USSR was socially-liberal and culturally-Marxist before the mid-1930s. After that there was a turn towards conservatism. Homosexuality was re-banned in 1935, the state's relations with the Russian Orthodox Church were normalized in 1943, school grades were reinstated in 1935, etc. Divorce was extremely rare in the post-WWII USSR, while drugs, gambling and prostitution did not exist at all.

    The Poles hated the Warsaw Pact period because they hate Russians as a people, not because that period was socially destructive for them. In fact their current conservstism is much more a Soviet legacy than a Catholic one - Spain, France and Italy are historically-Catholic too, and look at them for comparison.

    Poles hate Russians as a people because Russians took away their empire in the 17th and 18th centuries. There was a long struggle to unite the region. Poland was winning it for several centuries but then lost it to Russia.

    The Poles have never forgotten or forgiven this. They had unrealistic dreams of recreating their empire from the Baltic to the Black Seas during the interwar period. The neocons (look up George Freidman of Stratfor) are again nourishing these sorts of dreams in them right now.

    East Germany is less immigrant-friendly than West Germany, Poland and Hungary are rebels in the EU – that’s all a legacy of the Warsaw Pact period, which was culturally-conservative in a secular way and immigration-free. This legacy will probably fade once the generations that were formed in those countries during that period pass away.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Nico

    East Germany is less immigrant-friendly than West Germany, Poland and Hungary are rebels in the EU – that’s all a legacy of the Warsaw Pact period, which was culturally-conservative in a secular way and immigration-free. This legacy will probably fade once the generations that were formed in those countries during that period pass away.
     
    I wouldn't count it as a "last gasp" necessarily. The E.U. initially appealed to those countries as a way to give the bird to the Soviet past, but now those countries are drawing further and further away from the Euroyuppy postmodern consumer socialist mentality, and while the Czech Republic remains largely irreligious Christianity has on the whole been making a comeback in central and Eastern Europe as an animating bulwark to cement their cultural conservatism in place. They have seen the consequences of becoming P.C. libertine ninnies such as we have in the West and they are on their guard, especially since the E.U.'s economic woes are making it clear that behaving like a "liberated" lout is by no means the path to a successful existence, so there is one less reason to adopt postmodernism as the major cultural force.
  50. @Glossy
    The Spanish poll results reminded me of Whit Stillman's movie "Barcelona". One of its characters says that the sexual revolution arrived in Spain late (after Franco's death and Juan Carlos's Gorby-like treachery), but that when it did arrive, it was much more complete than in America.

    These poll results suggest that this is true not just of the sexual revolution, but of the entire leftist package of ideas and attitudes.

    Why did Spain turn out to be even more vulnerable to all of this than Sweden? That I don't know.

    The puzzling thing is the relaxed attitude to Muslim immigration.

    The Swedish naivety can be explained by their lack of any historic experience. But I would have thought that the folk memory of Arab rule would persist in Spain.

    It’s only 80 years since Franco used Moroccans to overthrow the Republic – one of the verses of the famous Song “Ay Carmella” is :

    Luchamos contra los moros,
    mercenarios y fascistas

    But, apparently not.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Glossy
    I just asked myself the question: "does modern Spain even have a "far-right" party?" Because if it does, I've never heard of it. So I looked it up:

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_active_nationalist_parties_in_Europe

    This page lists parties like the Front National, UKIP, AfD, Jobbik, Swedish Democrats, etc. Spain is represented by three parties which together got 0.06% of the popular vote in 2011. I think this is the absolute worst showing in all of Europe on that score. Which is very sad. And kind of mysterious to me.

  51. @jimmyriddle
    The puzzling thing is the relaxed attitude to Muslim immigration.

    The Swedish naivety can be explained by their lack of any historic experience. But I would have thought that the folk memory of Arab rule would persist in Spain.

    It's only 80 years since Franco used Moroccans to overthrow the Republic - one of the verses of the famous Song "Ay Carmella" is :

    Luchamos contra los moros,
    mercenarios y fascistas

    But, apparently not.

    I just asked myself the question: “does modern Spain even have a “far-right” party?” Because if it does, I’ve never heard of it. So I looked it up:

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_active_nationalist_parties_in_Europe

    This page lists parties like the Front National, UKIP, AfD, Jobbik, Swedish Democrats, etc. Spain is represented by three parties which together got 0.06% of the popular vote in 2011. I think this is the absolute worst showing in all of Europe on that score. Which is very sad. And kind of mysterious to me.

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    • Replies: @jimmyriddle
    That page smears UKIP and AfD, which are conservative parties and not post-fascist.
    , @Mitleser
    The transition from Francoism to "post-modern" was less traumatic than the transition from socialism.
  52. @Glossy
    East Germany is less immigrant-friendly than West Germany, Poland and Hungary are rebels in the EU - that's all a legacy of the Warsaw Pact period, which was culturally-conservative in a secular way and immigration-free. This legacy will probably fade once the generations that were formed in those countries during that period pass away.

    East Germany is less immigrant-friendly than West Germany, Poland and Hungary are rebels in the EU – that’s all a legacy of the Warsaw Pact period, which was culturally-conservative in a secular way and immigration-free. This legacy will probably fade once the generations that were formed in those countries during that period pass away.

    I wouldn’t count it as a “last gasp” necessarily. The E.U. initially appealed to those countries as a way to give the bird to the Soviet past, but now those countries are drawing further and further away from the Euroyuppy postmodern consumer socialist mentality, and while the Czech Republic remains largely irreligious Christianity has on the whole been making a comeback in central and Eastern Europe as an animating bulwark to cement their cultural conservatism in place. They have seen the consequences of becoming P.C. libertine ninnies such as we have in the West and they are on their guard, especially since the E.U.’s economic woes are making it clear that behaving like a “liberated” lout is by no means the path to a successful existence, so there is one less reason to adopt postmodernism as the major cultural force.

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    • Replies: @Mitleser

    especially since the E.U.’s economic woes are making it clear that behaving like a “liberated” lout is by no means the path to a successful existence
     
    Neither PiS Poland nor Fidesz Hungary are doing well either and they are more likely to suffer an existential demographic crisis (low TFR, high emigration) than the post-modern EU countries.
    , @German_reader
    "Christianity has on the whole been making a comeback in central and Eastern Europe as an animating bulwark to cement their cultural conservatism in place."

    I have my doubts whether that will be sustainable, given the current pope's enthusiasm for mass immigration (and that's unlikely to be an aberration, the Church clearly sees that its future lies with the masses in the global south). At least here in Germany the churches (both the Protestants and the Catholics, there is no difference) are among the main promoters and supporters of Merkel's immigration madness...which she has justified in Christian terms.
    The Czechs with their irreligious nationalism might have the better idea.
  53. @Glossy
    I just asked myself the question: "does modern Spain even have a "far-right" party?" Because if it does, I've never heard of it. So I looked it up:

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_active_nationalist_parties_in_Europe

    This page lists parties like the Front National, UKIP, AfD, Jobbik, Swedish Democrats, etc. Spain is represented by three parties which together got 0.06% of the popular vote in 2011. I think this is the absolute worst showing in all of Europe on that score. Which is very sad. And kind of mysterious to me.

    That page smears UKIP and AfD, which are conservative parties and not post-fascist.

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    • Replies: @Glossy
    Yes, putting them in the same category as Golden Dawn doesn't make much sense. But it IS interesting to me that the compilers of that list couldn't find anything in Spain beyond that 0.06% of the vote. And I haven't heard of any modern Spanish parties described as far-right in the media.
  54. @jimmyriddle
    That page smears UKIP and AfD, which are conservative parties and not post-fascist.

    Yes, putting them in the same category as Golden Dawn doesn’t make much sense. But it IS interesting to me that the compilers of that list couldn’t find anything in Spain beyond that 0.06% of the vote. And I haven’t heard of any modern Spanish parties described as far-right in the media.

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  55. @Nico

    East Germany is less immigrant-friendly than West Germany, Poland and Hungary are rebels in the EU – that’s all a legacy of the Warsaw Pact period, which was culturally-conservative in a secular way and immigration-free. This legacy will probably fade once the generations that were formed in those countries during that period pass away.
     
    I wouldn't count it as a "last gasp" necessarily. The E.U. initially appealed to those countries as a way to give the bird to the Soviet past, but now those countries are drawing further and further away from the Euroyuppy postmodern consumer socialist mentality, and while the Czech Republic remains largely irreligious Christianity has on the whole been making a comeback in central and Eastern Europe as an animating bulwark to cement their cultural conservatism in place. They have seen the consequences of becoming P.C. libertine ninnies such as we have in the West and they are on their guard, especially since the E.U.'s economic woes are making it clear that behaving like a "liberated" lout is by no means the path to a successful existence, so there is one less reason to adopt postmodernism as the major cultural force.

    especially since the E.U.’s economic woes are making it clear that behaving like a “liberated” lout is by no means the path to a successful existence

    Neither PiS Poland nor Fidesz Hungary are doing well either and they are more likely to suffer an existential demographic crisis (low TFR, high emigration) than the post-modern EU countries.

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  56. @Glossy
    I just asked myself the question: "does modern Spain even have a "far-right" party?" Because if it does, I've never heard of it. So I looked it up:

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_active_nationalist_parties_in_Europe

    This page lists parties like the Front National, UKIP, AfD, Jobbik, Swedish Democrats, etc. Spain is represented by three parties which together got 0.06% of the popular vote in 2011. I think this is the absolute worst showing in all of Europe on that score. Which is very sad. And kind of mysterious to me.

    The transition from Francoism to “post-modern” was less traumatic than the transition from socialism.

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  57. @Glossy
    The Spanish poll results reminded me of Whit Stillman's movie "Barcelona". One of its characters says that the sexual revolution arrived in Spain late (after Franco's death and Juan Carlos's Gorby-like treachery), but that when it did arrive, it was much more complete than in America.

    These poll results suggest that this is true not just of the sexual revolution, but of the entire leftist package of ideas and attitudes.

    Why did Spain turn out to be even more vulnerable to all of this than Sweden? That I don't know.

    Can’t really tell since I’m not Spanish, but hasn’t the left in Spain long had a romanticised view of Islam (the myth of tolerant, enlightened al-Andalus), related to its anti-Catholicism (and bizarrely enough, even right-wingers claimed during the colonial era that Spaniards and Moroccans were basically the same people)? Also, Spanish nationalism has traditionally been rather weak.

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  58. Bear also in mind that Spain yet doesn’t have a sizeable radical Islamic population yet, measured by the share of Muslims having gone to fight as jihadists in Syria. Per million Muslim residents, 66 jihadists left Spain. The comparable numbers are for Italy 47, Germany 171, UK 233, France 310, Australia 350, Sweden 500, Denmark 556, Belgium 737 and Finland 1273.

    This may be just one small factor in explaining the outcomes, but it is interesting that Muslims in Spain and Italy are less radicalized than in Northern Europe.

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    • Replies: @jimmyriddle
    The last figure for the UK that I have seen is 800, approximately half of which have returned.

    More "British" Muslims joined IS than serve in the British Army.
  59. @tbraton
    "but I suspect only 20% to at most a third of Germans are really firm believers in all this."

    Well, that is certainly a relief. For a while there, I thought the entire country of Germany had gone truly insane, as compared to 30-40% here in the U.S. When do you expect to see any sanity restored to the political process in Germany?

    Hard to tell. The AfD’s steadily making gains, but is totally demonised by the entire establishment (parties, the media, churches, trade unions etc.)…and attacked by violent antifa types. Even if the AfD managed to win 15-20% of the vote in the federal elections in 2017 (probably the maximum that might be realistic at least in the near future), the result would probably just be the established parties entering a coalition in a united front against the right-wing “threat”. That’s already happened after the three state elections in March…in Baden-Württemberg the supposedly conservative Christian Democrats have even entered a coalition (as junior partner) with the leftist Greens.
    I don’t really see any change unless the existing party system is overturned; above all the Christian Democrats must be crushed at elections and punished for their servile support of Merkel. But that will take time, and of course tremendous damage has already been done and will be very hard to reverse.

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  60. @Nico

    East Germany is less immigrant-friendly than West Germany, Poland and Hungary are rebels in the EU – that’s all a legacy of the Warsaw Pact period, which was culturally-conservative in a secular way and immigration-free. This legacy will probably fade once the generations that were formed in those countries during that period pass away.
     
    I wouldn't count it as a "last gasp" necessarily. The E.U. initially appealed to those countries as a way to give the bird to the Soviet past, but now those countries are drawing further and further away from the Euroyuppy postmodern consumer socialist mentality, and while the Czech Republic remains largely irreligious Christianity has on the whole been making a comeback in central and Eastern Europe as an animating bulwark to cement their cultural conservatism in place. They have seen the consequences of becoming P.C. libertine ninnies such as we have in the West and they are on their guard, especially since the E.U.'s economic woes are making it clear that behaving like a "liberated" lout is by no means the path to a successful existence, so there is one less reason to adopt postmodernism as the major cultural force.

    “Christianity has on the whole been making a comeback in central and Eastern Europe as an animating bulwark to cement their cultural conservatism in place.”

    I have my doubts whether that will be sustainable, given the current pope’s enthusiasm for mass immigration (and that’s unlikely to be an aberration, the Church clearly sees that its future lies with the masses in the global south). At least here in Germany the churches (both the Protestants and the Catholics, there is no difference) are among the main promoters and supporters of Merkel’s immigration madness…which she has justified in Christian terms.
    The Czechs with their irreligious nationalism might have the better idea.

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    • Replies: @Nico

    I have my doubts whether that will be sustainable, given the current pope’s enthusiasm for mass immigration
     
    Yes, there are plenty of gadflys in any predictive attempt.
  61. @Cicerone
    Bear also in mind that Spain yet doesn't have a sizeable radical Islamic population yet, measured by the share of Muslims having gone to fight as jihadists in Syria. Per million Muslim residents, 66 jihadists left Spain. The comparable numbers are for Italy 47, Germany 171, UK 233, France 310, Australia 350, Sweden 500, Denmark 556, Belgium 737 and Finland 1273.

    This may be just one small factor in explaining the outcomes, but it is interesting that Muslims in Spain and Italy are less radicalized than in Northern Europe.

    The last figure for the UK that I have seen is 800, approximately half of which have returned.

    More “British” Muslims joined IS than serve in the British Army.

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  62. @German_reader
    "Christianity has on the whole been making a comeback in central and Eastern Europe as an animating bulwark to cement their cultural conservatism in place."

    I have my doubts whether that will be sustainable, given the current pope's enthusiasm for mass immigration (and that's unlikely to be an aberration, the Church clearly sees that its future lies with the masses in the global south). At least here in Germany the churches (both the Protestants and the Catholics, there is no difference) are among the main promoters and supporters of Merkel's immigration madness...which she has justified in Christian terms.
    The Czechs with their irreligious nationalism might have the better idea.

    I have my doubts whether that will be sustainable, given the current pope’s enthusiasm for mass immigration

    Yes, there are plenty of gadflys in any predictive attempt.

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  63. @Glossy
    Yes, I now see that he's been all over the place, even working for McCain at some point. But his Yanukovich work was recent. Maybe he signed up with the anti-neocon team recently.

    Or, more likely, he's just a hired gun with no orientation beyond Republicanism in the US, which does not have to be ideological at all - in US politics a campaign consultant simply has to pick one side and stick with it.

    Other than Republicanism the common thread seems to be that he likes authoritarian “underdogs” and the challenge of polishing their image in respectable circles. Trump seems to meet both criteria.

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  64. I doubt the average white Frank, Briton or German is more racialist than the average white Australian. Upper middle-class English liberals still frequently mock working/lower middle-class Australian males for being racist rednecks.

    The greater racial conservatism of North-western Europeans will be due to the high percentage of Africans and Muslims in the immigrant population. In Australia inter-racial marriage primarily means marriage between whites and East Asians, and white sub-races like Latins and Celts. However, attitudes will probably change as more Africans, Polynesians and Muslims move into the country.

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  65. Anonymous says:     Show CommentNext New Comment

    This is the sort of poll that JayMan and HBD chick would normally be all over if it confirmed their preconceptions.

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    • Replies: @inselaffen
    Yup, agreed. I always found the 'northern europeans are genetically driven to be uber-liberal individualist race suiciders, unlike everyone else' hbd trope pretty overwraught. There might be some sorta-truths in there but at the same time if those people were writing their blogs 100 years ago, what they'd be saying would completely different. Culture does matter...
  66. Anonymous says:     Show CommentNext New Comment
    @Glossy
    They're not savages. The peoples of the Caucasus, especially the Christians among them (that includes Ossetians and Abkhazians) are kind of like southern Italians. Having said that, it would be better for inter-ethnic peace, ethnic continuity on both sides and for a lot of other reasons if Putin's attitude to ethnic migration was more like the late Soviet attitude and less like the modern Western one. Right now it's somewhere in the middle.

    lmfao

    Why does every Middle Easterner/South Asian/Latino always compare themselves to Italians? I feel bad for Italians and other Mediterranean Europeans because brown people are always imitating them.

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    • Replies: @Blinky Bill
    The Wogs begin at Calais not Istanbul.
    , @Anonymous
    Because many Mediterranean Europeans are indistinguishable from brown people.

    Better dead than Med.
    , @Marcus
    Obviously people of the "Middle East" and the Caucasus are going to share social, physical, etc. similarities with "southern Europeans," unless you think there was a magic line separating regions and continents in the past.
    , @Anonymous
    An Italian professor was removed from a flight and interrogated by authorities because he looked like a Muslim terrorist to suspicious American passengers:

    "Ivy League economist ethnically profiled, interrogated for doing math on American Airlines flight"

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/rampage/wp/2016/05/07/ivy-league-economist-interrogated-for-doing-math-on-american-airlines-flight/
  67. @Anonymous
    lmfao

    Why does every Middle Easterner/South Asian/Latino always compare themselves to Italians? I feel bad for Italians and other Mediterranean Europeans because brown people are always imitating them.

    The Wogs begin at Calais not Istanbul.

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    • Replies: @Marcus
    Plenty of wog-looking Brits/Irish: Rowan Atkinson, Sean Connery, Colin Farrell, Dominic Cooper, Victoria Beckham, Catherine Zeta-Jones, etc.
  68. Anonymous says:     Show CommentNext New Comment
    @Anonymous
    lmfao

    Why does every Middle Easterner/South Asian/Latino always compare themselves to Italians? I feel bad for Italians and other Mediterranean Europeans because brown people are always imitating them.

    Because many Mediterranean Europeans are indistinguishable from brown people.

    Better dead than Med.

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    • Replies: @Mitleser
    But North Italy is closer tied/more similar to Central Europe.
  69. @Anonymous
    Because many Mediterranean Europeans are indistinguishable from brown people.

    Better dead than Med.

    But North Italy is closer tied/more similar to Central Europe.

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  70. @Anonymous
    lmfao

    Why does every Middle Easterner/South Asian/Latino always compare themselves to Italians? I feel bad for Italians and other Mediterranean Europeans because brown people are always imitating them.

    Obviously people of the “Middle East” and the Caucasus are going to share social, physical, etc. similarities with “southern Europeans,” unless you think there was a magic line separating regions and continents in the past.

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  71. @Blinky Bill
    The Wogs begin at Calais not Istanbul.

    Plenty of wog-looking Brits/Irish: Rowan Atkinson, Sean Connery, Colin Farrell, Dominic Cooper, Victoria Beckham, Catherine Zeta-Jones, etc.

    Read More
  72. Anonymous says:     Show CommentNext New Comment
    @Anonymous
    lmfao

    Why does every Middle Easterner/South Asian/Latino always compare themselves to Italians? I feel bad for Italians and other Mediterranean Europeans because brown people are always imitating them.

    An Italian professor was removed from a flight and interrogated by authorities because he looked like a Muslim terrorist to suspicious American passengers:

    “Ivy League economist ethnically profiled, interrogated for doing math on American Airlines flight”

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/rampage/wp/2016/05/07/ivy-league-economist-interrogated-for-doing-math-on-american-airlines-flight/

    Read More
  73. @Anonymous
    This is the sort of poll that JayMan and HBD chick would normally be all over if it confirmed their preconceptions.

    Yup, agreed. I always found the ‘northern europeans are genetically driven to be uber-liberal individualist race suiciders, unlike everyone else’ hbd trope pretty overwraught. There might be some sorta-truths in there but at the same time if those people were writing their blogs 100 years ago, what they’d be saying would completely different. Culture does matter…

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  74. Even if Arabs will make up 25% to 40% of the population of Spain, Italy, or Greece, wjhat difference will it make with respect to their appearance unless you perform a blood test? Aside from a slightly darker shade? I mean the children of an Italian and a Syrian or an Arab, will be easily able to pass as a Southern European, considering how dark a lot of Italians and Spanish are, and culturally speaking lots of Altrighters like Derbyshire hold quasi-Shariah views regarding women such as not having the right to vote. so it really should not matter so much for them.

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    • Replies: @Whateverbra

    Even if Arabs will make up 25% to 40% of the population of Spain, Italy, or Greece, wjhat difference will it make with respect to their appearance
     
    Your ignorance doesn't weigh on us; it will make plenty of difference. Appearance aside, culturally those countries are light years apart from any ME country on social issues. Even some former Eastern Bloc countries are currently slightly (though still pretty far for most of them) closer to some ME countries on some issues, despite what you might consider a greater phenotypical distance. Most European countries seem to be closer to each other on that sort of thing than to any ME country from what I've seen.

    Most of us who live in the countries you mentioned (especially of the younger generations) are far from alt-righters so why would we specifically care about a middle-aged Anglo with an East Asian wife with extreme (from our perspective) views...instead we'll care (the ones who aren't too optimistic about "assimilation") about what ME immigration might mean for our actual views.

    I think you can do better with the bait.
  75. The Greek result is what I’d expect: both some of the highest strong disapproval (2nd) and highest strong approval (3rd) among the countries asked. Current conditions aside (which surely weigh on the question), the country is always pretty divided on such issues. It’s like we never stop reliving the 40s Civil War in some ways…

    I have to add a bit of a “muh hajnal” potshot here, sorry!

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  76. @rvg
    Even if Arabs will make up 25% to 40% of the population of Spain, Italy, or Greece, wjhat difference will it make with respect to their appearance unless you perform a blood test? Aside from a slightly darker shade? I mean the children of an Italian and a Syrian or an Arab, will be easily able to pass as a Southern European, considering how dark a lot of Italians and Spanish are, and culturally speaking lots of Altrighters like Derbyshire hold quasi-Shariah views regarding women such as not having the right to vote. so it really should not matter so much for them.

    Even if Arabs will make up 25% to 40% of the population of Spain, Italy, or Greece, wjhat difference will it make with respect to their appearance

    Your ignorance doesn’t weigh on us; it will make plenty of difference. Appearance aside, culturally those countries are light years apart from any ME country on social issues. Even some former Eastern Bloc countries are currently slightly (though still pretty far for most of them) closer to some ME countries on some issues, despite what you might consider a greater phenotypical distance. Most European countries seem to be closer to each other on that sort of thing than to any ME country from what I’ve seen.

    Most of us who live in the countries you mentioned (especially of the younger generations) are far from alt-righters so why would we specifically care about a middle-aged Anglo with an East Asian wife with extreme (from our perspective) views…instead we’ll care (the ones who aren’t too optimistic about “assimilation”) about what ME immigration might mean for our actual views.

    I think you can do better with the bait.

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