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Open Thread 57
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moscow-swpl

More SWPL in Moscow – this place was a car park/dump a few years ago.

My glorious NEETdom will (partially) end from the start of October. While I was never enthusiastic about getting a real job, this one happens to be centered around the intersection of Russian demographics, economics, and psychometrics. So it’s essentially a continuation of my existing hobbies, and attendance requirements are lax. This is perfectly synchronized with my blog’s content, so I don’t even expect content production here to suffer.

I am also contributing to a website that will help countervent censorship of the altsphere. It’s still in the beta phase, so I can’t say too much about it yet.

Remont (=renovation; but even all the expats call it a remont) is almost finished. Hopefully I can move into my apartment in a week’s time.

An alt right blogger recently recommended me Keybase. Quite a few of my acquaintances in the Alt Right are interested in censorship-resistant payment systems, and I will admit to having some curiosity as well; never know when it might come in handy. Anyone kind enough to give me the 101 on it?

As always, donations are appreciated – http://akarlin.com/donations/

***

Featured

* I haven’t been following the Kavanaugh affair closely enough to have any good opinions. FWIW PredictIt currently gives him a 60% chance of becoming SCOTUS judge, but it fluctuates wildly on the latest news.

Obviously the accusations are almost certainly false, and ludicrous to an almost “Rape on Campus” degree (though as Steve points out being wrong hasn’t stopped the Blue Checkmark mob).

The affair does seem to back observations that US society is becoming extremely polarized.

* Musk seems to be in a lot of trouble. Congrats Thorfinnsson.

* SAD. Nature: How DNA fends off a favourite gene-editing tool. Using CRISPR for certain genetic edits might be far harder than expected.

***

Russia

* Jon Hellevig: The Case Against Thomas Piketty. Lies, damned lies, and statistics. The true level of income and wealth inequality in Russia.

* Ben Aris: $500+ billion capital flight from Russia since 1994

* Leonid Bershidsky: Russia’s Thugs May Be Too Much for Its Technocrats. Hard to deny this, given recent events. OTOH, I wonder if it’s even possible to run a “based” state without thugs.

* BLAST FROM THE PAST. Putin suggested to visiting German business in Saint-Petersburg in 1993 that Russia should spend some time as a regime modeled after that of Pinochet.

* Higher School of Economics study [in Russian]: Russia’s more religious (Orthodox) regions have similar fertility rates and divorce rates to the rest of Russia, but lower crime, and much lower HIV prevalence rates. (Being religion-hating liberals, the HSE people “predict” that those Russian regions may become “zones of social dysfunction,” like the Bible Belt in the US. I assume it’s because Negroes will settle those areas come Tropical Hyperborea.)

* My Twitter thread on Russian life expectancy and alcoholism in response to a question from WW2 historian Mark Harrison:

***

World News

* BLACKPILL. Audacious Epigone: Throwing November.

* SINOTRIUMPH: Godfree Roberts: Trade War III.

His Maoism is nonsense, and even his degree of Sinotriumph is too much even for me, but the comments on quotes on Chinese performance on PISA are real and important.

* AMEROTRIUMPH. Satyajit Das: How the U.S. Has Weaponized the Dollar

economist-povert-africa

* OUR BIOREALISTIC FUTURE. Economist: Poverty is becoming almost exclusively African. Logical.

* Diversity Macht Frei: More “British Jews” in the IDF Than British Armed Forces.

I knew this was the case for Muslims (probably a good thing – British SSBNs don’t have PAL protections against unauthorized launch), but it’s interesting that it applies to Jews too.

* Greg Hood: Race is the Main Political Divide

* Buzzfeed: A Leaked Video Shows Google Leadership Reacting To Trump’s 2016 Election Win

***

Science & Culture

* X RISKS. Robin Hanson marks 20 years since he introduced The Great Filter to the world.

* DESTRUCTION OF THE CITIES. Matt Forney pens one of the best Bronze Age Mindset reviews for his literary project Terror House Magazine.

* Scott Alexander reviews The Black Swan. Book reviews lie on a power-law distribution?

* I noted the weak presence of Russia (and China) in PC video games.

But there’s a new free to play game on Steam made by Tencent called Ring of Elysium, which is a battle royale like PUBG/Fortnite. You start off an a mountain top and need to ski/paraglide your way down to a rescue helicopter in the middle of a post-apocalyptic blizzard, which picking off other skier-survivalists. This sounds like the best plot ever to me.

* RT: Sweden turns Pippi Longstocking into homeless Roma migrant living in Stockholm ghetto

* Audacious Epigone: MGTOW vs. “How to get a girlfriend” in Google Searches

***

Powerful Takes

* Literally worse than Hitler!

utu-sailer-worse-than-hitler

* “Western Russophiles” in a nutshell.

take-western-russophilia

* Reaching levels of multi-dimensional chess that shouldn’t even be possible!

unz-clever-plan

***

 
• Category: Miscellaneous • Tags: Crispr, Open Thread, Russia, United States 
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  1. Dmitry says:

    Russia’s more religious (Orthodox) regions have similar fertility rates and divorce rates to the rest of Russia, but lower crime, and much lower HIV prevalence rates.

    Main transmitter of HIV is used of injected opiates (mainly heroin).

    So study which should be commissioned from this, is possibility of inverse correlation between religious prevalence and rates of heroin use, in an area.

    If religious prevalence and rates of heroin are able to substitute for each other, then empirical support for Marx’s connection (“Religion is opium of the people”).

    • Replies: @Talha
    , @Hyperborean
  2. Jared Taylor of AmRen mentioned in his latest podcast that he had been to Poland in the last week and spoken in front of the All-Polish Youth at two seperate ocassions. They are very religious – and hence I tend to avoid them – but this is a very good sign. In the aftermath of the last independence march, some of their spokesmen started to spout moronic talking points about ‘muh based black men > white communists’. Jared is not exactly shy on his views on race, so my principal criticism that a lot of Polish nationalist groups are too religious civnats is being ameliorated.

    In general, I have seen a strong surge away from religion and towards race in the last couple of years. Wykop, the Polish reddit, has consistently had race realist submissions at the top of its front-page lately. It is a very popular normie-tier website, which makes that all the more remarkable. One of the things I love about living in Poland is our pro-free speech mentality. I can’t even imagine reddit allowing a self-post about fullblown race realism rising to the top of the front page and staying there. I can’t even imagine the userbase voting it up either.

    Another sign of the generational divide is that there was recently a Polish film mocking the catholic clergy and all the PiS boomers were outraged but most of the Wykop userbase joined in on the ridicule. The pedo scandals certainly haven’t helped. I think our leftists are still in a state where they think that Catholicism is the end-all be-all, sort of how white liberals in the US obsessed about Christian evangelicals during the Bush era. But this is decreasingly relevant as you go down the age brackets. A lot of these establishment leftists are they themselves in their 40s, 50s or even 60s and they grew up in a much more religious – but also more naïve – Poland which was quite closed off from the world.

    I’ve mentioned before that I expect Poland to be ~10% non-white by 2030 (assuming a large immigration surge in the 2020s once/when PiS loses power to the neoliberal EU-slaves, á la how Blair opened the floodgates in the UK in the 1990s). But by 2030, things should get quite a lot better than it is now, as the boomers start to die off. In fact, I’m surprised how fast the discourse on the internet and among the young is already changing.

    • Replies: @Talha
    , @AP
    , @szopen
    , @utu
  3. Talha says:
    @Dmitry

    Actually, if he would have stuck around, he would have concluded; opium is the religion of the masses.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  4. Talha says:

    SAD. Nature: How DNA fends off a favourite gene-editing tool. Using CRISPR for certain genetic edits might be far harder than expected.

    Has it occurred to people that perhaps this is a fail-safe that was achieved over millions and millions of years of development of organisms in order to protect from the adverse effects of, say, a virus or something else that could alter genetic code in order to exploit a vulnerability. And that perhaps there was a conflict of this nature in the distant past that led to this limitation surviving and perpetuating itself forward?

    Peace.

    • Replies: @AaronB
    , @Daniel Chieh
  5. Talha says:
    @Polish Perspective

    File under Exhibit #4543 for “Post-Christian Europe” and a warning to any Muslims observing. If you think there are problems in the Muslim world now, you haven’t seen anything yet; if the Muslim world becomes post-Islam – societies will rip themselves apart along ethnic lines that might make WW2 look tame.

    This kind of thing would be a relic of the past:
    “Circassian guards, who have served Jordan’s kings since the founding of the monarchy, still adhere to their ancient traditions, such as donning an incongruous cold weather uniform of black wool hats, red capes and leather boots in this desert climate.”

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/wires/ap/article-3422250/Rare-look-world-Jordan-royals-Circassian-guards.html

    Peace.

    • Replies: @Polish Perspective
  6. One more piece of good news. As I was reading Foreign Affairs in the university library this morning (gotta keep up with ZOG) to my great astonishment, I found a balanced and frankly critical book review about Western coverage of Russia written in conjunction with some recent book releases on Russia (Gessen, Shaun Walker of Guardian fame and Serhii Plokhii).

    The author pointed out that all these three authors shared a very contrived view of Russia, in that they viewed Russian civil society as desolate and lifeless, that is is merely an artificial creation by the Russian state. Invented to serve a repressive purpose. In other words, politics comes first and the culture is modified for its ends.

    He attacked this view head-on. He forcefully argued that Putin is in fact a creation of Russian society and not the other way around. He even went into AK’s talking points about Lenin being anti-Russian(!), how Lenin had suppressed Russian identity and viewed ‘Russian chauvinism’ as a great threat. I couldn’t believe what I was reading. He also threw shade on the notion that Putin is unpopular and only in power due to massive repression. There was also plenty of harsh words reserved for coverage of Russia, and how it is inextricably tied up in Western fantasies of Russia being a puppet like most of CEE has become to the US-led order. When Russia inevitably disappoints the role of servility, rage ensues.

    The main problem, in his view, is that Western coverage of Russia refuses to engage actual Russian civil society, partly for the aforementioned reasons but also, frankly, because many of the social choices taken by Russians are inimical to neoliberal preferences. Putin’s Orthodoxy should be seen as an outgrowth of the Russian people’s will instead of purely being seen through a cynical lens of Putin doing yet another move to solidify power (by all accounts, he is genuinely religious).

    That all said, will it have an effect on Western Discourse? Considering that the same magazine had a deranged article by Michael McFaul in the same issue on the topic of Russia, perhaps we shouldn’t get our hopes up just yet. But, there are at least some sane voices out there and Foreign Affairs is the go-to magazine for the US foreign policy elite, so that’s something. The article can be found here. Ignore the somewhat hostile title, the actual text is quite good.

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
  7. AP says:

    Ukraine keeps winning. 3.8% GDP growth in the second quarter of 2018, which makes it the 11th straight quarter of GDP growth. Given the people leaving ot work abroad, this makes per capita growth much higher.

    https://www.ukrinform.net/rubric-economy/2548250-ukraines-gdp-growing-for-11-quarters-in-a-row.html

    There has been some chemical accident at a plant in Crimea, children being evacuated:

    https://www.dw.com/en/crimea-mysterious-chemical-incident-evokes-memories-of-chernobyl-disaster/a-45376308

    Ukrainian media portray it as proof that Crimea is falling apart after coming under Russian rule, which is probably absurd. But if the same thing had happened at a plant outside Kiev, Russian media would undoubtedly run with the same interpretation and someone like Felix would believe it.

    • Replies: @Jon0815
  8. AP says:
    @Polish Perspective

    It would be better to fix problems in the Church and with the hierarchs than to abandon religion. Never mind souls, even from a practical standpoint so far there has never been a really successful post-religious society, it’s a dangerous experiment.

    • Agree: utu
  9. Dmitry says:
    @Talha

    Well, Jung says something like drug-addict, is man in search of religion.

    So Mac Miller’s problem, was the quality of his drugs supply.

    You can know which dudes selling really “good shit”, from their “wild clothes” and when they have their own trains.

    • Replies: @Talha
  10. @Talha

    Islam is a very authoritarian religion, likely because its leader understood his own people all too well. I’ve read a lot of sociological material on schools in Western Europe and one of the recurring themes is that you have white liberal teachers naïvely thinking that the same rules which applies for white kids must also apply for muslim kids. After all, race-blind liberalism is the dogma which they were fed all their lives.

    Chief among these assumptions is an implicit expectation that there has to be a certain amount of self-discipline and that the teacher shouldn’t need to beat the kids to get them to behave.

    Naturally, this does not work well. Hence, chaos is ever-present. The quotes which keep coming back when the 2nd gen immigrant kids are interviewed keep being “the teacher must show more authority”. So, I do think you’re right that a Middle East without Islam will likely be even bloodier than it is now, if we can even imagine that. Then again, I don’t necessarily think Christianity is the solution either.

    There was a great article on the huge surge of violence in Latin America published a week ago. Latin America is now home to 30% of global homicides with less than 8% of the population. Mexico and Brazil are both quite religious, certainly far more than even Poland.
    What this shows is that race is a much more significant predictor than religion for future behaviour.

    I have sometimes come across the claim, from US conservatives, that the reason why there was much less dysfunction among US blacks pre-1960s was because the culture was more wholesome(which equates to more religious in their mind). I would counter this by pointing out that blacks did not have much choice or, frankly, space, to chimp out if they wanted to. Overwhelming white repression, unquestionably white authority and unbridled white institutional power made sure that there was no opportunity, chiefly view the Jim Crow laws that were ruthlessly enforced.

    As the civil rights era came, these repressions went away and violence skyrocketed in the 60s(as Sailer has written about many times). So I am in general skeptical about the role of religion here, though I will concede that heavily religious societies tend to have less bad shit like feminism, tranny BS etc. The only drawback is that such societies often tend to forego other, more important aspects like ethnicity or race. Religious groups which are tied to ethnicity (such as Jews) don’t mind this, because they can always appeal to religious sentiment. Which is why US conservatives are the most philosemitic and the biggest shabbos goyim for Israel there is.

  11. szopen says:

    IMO the thing going with #metoo and with Kavanaugh in time will be seen in the same light as hysteria about Satanist cultists invading american daycare. You might remember that witnesses were absolutely sure that they were testifying the truth. They really believed they were victims of awful and evil rituals. They were not lying, technically, if “lying” means consciously telling falsehoods.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satanic_ritual_abuse

    Similar with childhood abuse; dozens of parents were punished because their children went through psychotherapy which revealed their repressed memories.

    https://www.theguardian.com/science/2009/apr/07/sexual-abuse-false-memory-syndrome

    I’ve read Ford was going through psychotherapy, but it’s not unsual and not necessary to posing a possibility she is a victim of false memories. The false memories can be implanted by anything.

  12. szopen says:
    @Polish Perspective

    Well, I’m an atheist but I think that religion does give some kind of social cohesion and helps keeping social peace. I would prefer to have a national church; or even better, if 90% of Poles start to believe Poles are chosen nation much better than the rest of the world :D. I mean, I do not believe that, but it would do wonders for being resistant to immigration-is-always-good nonsense.

    • Agree: reiner Tor
    • Replies: @Talha
  13. Talha says:
    @Dmitry

    I have never really understood this part of the church and I can see why it would invite cynicism and ridicule. If our ulema rode like that, I’d be seriously disappointed – but that’s just our perspective. Religious leadership getting a class distinction is not something I’m used to. Here is one of the most respected and most knowledgeable scholars in the world, the former Grand Mufti of Pakistan – Taqi Usmani, take a noon nap while he was doing a recent tour of Lebanon – I think he is almost 75 years old:

    Peace.

  14. AaronB says:
    @Talha

    But Talha, that would mean the dream of absolute human control – total security and banishing of anxiety – was impossible.

    As I mentioned on the Fred thread, a scientific theory is selected based on how much control it is perceived to confer. Actual benefit is secondary.

    If we figure out that we are most benefited by leaving a process alone, this would be anathema to the scientific mind – such a discovery would be ignored, and a theory that gave the illusion of control would be preferred.

    The optimistic thing in my view is that the way out is through – we must continue this project of total control, increase it and amplify it, intensify it, spontaneity must be banished and more and more areas of our life must be brought under rigid control, or rather the illusion of control.

    Game substitutes an illusion of control for actual effectiveness – what I want to see is more areas of our life also rigidly controlled. Recreation and entertainment should be the next area. We should not be able to have fun or enjoy ourselves without rigid rules and complex theories of control. Friendships also should be brought under the control of rules.

    It has become absolutely clear to me that you will never convince the control-people of the futility and pointlessness of their grand project – and its harmfullness. Not only do they kill joy, but the the very thing they are grasping after, absolute security, recedes the more they try and wrap their lives in ironclad certainty.

    You cannot talk them out of their anxiety – their anxiety is existential, based on a wrong view of life that is deeply embedded in their personality structure. They think they are desperate from the universe and must control it.

    No, what you must do is encourage them to carry out their convictions as far as possible – a reductio ad absurdum. Only then will they see the absurdity of it all – and learn to laugh for the first time. (Notice how grim everyone here is)

    This will take decades. But it is the only way. Science, scientism, every kind of control and rule making, Progress, must all be maximally encouraged among those who seek control.

  15. Nznz says: • Website

    Here is a thought experiment? Assuming you are interested in talking in taking back your country from neoliberalism, what is it going to take, is it going to require Isis levels of violence? Targetted assassination of liberal figures and supporters? Because from discussions here it seems that peaceful means are not possible.

    • Replies: @German_reader
    , @utu
  16. Nznz says:

    Why are more intelligent people more socially liberal and more susceptible to POZ than less intelligent proles? Is this because more intelligent people use liberalism as a form of virtue signalling in order to separate themselves from the masses?

  17. @Nznz

    That’s an interesting question. Maybe in the end it will indeed come down to a choice between passively letting oneself be destroyed or using the most ruthless and brutal violence (which of course would have a corrupting influence on one’s own morals, one could easily enter a spiral of self-radicalizing escalation like the Nazis did; if one believes in that kind of thing, it might even cause divine retribution). Obviously it would be better if such a choice could be avoided. But if it can’t, how is one to choose? There are no good answers to this imo.

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    , @Hyperborean
  18. @Polish Perspective

    “Chief among these assumptions is an implicit expectation that there has to be a certain amount of self-discipline and that the teacher shouldn’t need to beat the kids to get them to behave.”

    Muslim students in Europa tend to be more tame than white students, due to their more conersvative upbringing.

  19. @Erik Sieven

    Muslim students in Europa tend to be more tame than white students

    Sounds dubious. I’m not speaking from personal experience, but in Germany even mainstream media have published stories about the violent behaviour of Turkish and Arab boys (often explained with the role of physical violence in their own upbringing, plus their Islamic superiority complex), and anecdotal stories from teachers seem to confirm that they’re often quite troublesome.

  20. @Nznz

    When they interact with those of different racial and religious backgrounds and of different sexual orientations they are usually dealing with functional, nice people not those at the far left of the bell curve.

    Good post by Godfree, only point I make is that the issue with China’s debt isn’t government debt but the eye-watering loans owed by SOEs and private corps.

  21. Talha says:
    @Polish Perspective

    Islam is a very authoritarian religion

    In certain aspects, certainly…God likes to call the shots…because, well, He’s God. I don’t know if we could take a God seriously that basically said something like; “Yeah, do whatever you want and I’ll like be over here if you need anything or you feel like calling me or like whatever you feel like, you know…because I created you and everything, but like whatever, you know…”

    I would think the name of the religion “submission” would be kind of a clue. But that’s OK – they’ve done studies on it and religions (or variant interpretations, sects, etc.) that demand sacrifice and commitment from adherents survive and the ones that are more “ho-hum” about things fade away.

    So, I do think you’re right that a Middle East without Islam will likely be even bloodier than it is now, if we can even imagine that.

    Why? The bloodiest episode in European history was when it was more divorced from religion than any point before. The issues we are seeing in the Middle East are due to dissolution of “supra-ethnic bond” due to religion like the Circassians I cited in Jordan or even the Kurds and the Turks (a very relevant one to look at):
    “Especially among the Kurds, the caliphate had been held in high esteem. When, at the outset of the First World War, the Sultan in his capacity of Caliph or supreme leader of all Orthodox Muslims proclaimed a jihad, most Kurds rallied to the call. The large sums that had been spent by Russians in an attempt to buy some Kurdish chiefs’ loyalties were of no avail, nor could emotional appeals by Kurdish nationalists complete against the Caliph’s word…As Van Bruneissen observes, it was not until this supra-ethnic bond was severed with the elimination of the caliphate that ‘more or less nationalist-inspired revolts’ began to emerge among the Kurds.”
    Longing for the Lost Caliphate: A Transregional History (Princeton Univ. Press)

    When people are no longer “brothers” but some other “not us” entity…that’s where stuff gets bloody interesting.

    What this shows is that race is a much more significant predictor than religion for future behaviour.

    I’d say it’s a combination of both. Certainly I’m not going to argue that a Muslim society respectively formed by Somalis or Omanis or Persians or Bosnians is going to turn out the same. The trends in Latin America are something I’m still trying to get my head around.

    I would counter this by pointing out that blacks did not have much choice or, frankly, space, to chimp out if they wanted to.

    That is an interesting observation and quite true. But then, I have met and interacted with plenty of hardworking and decent African American Muslims who have families and were former criminals which obviously means that religion had a significant impact on their behavior.

    The only drawback is that such societies often tend to forego other, more important aspects like ethnicity or race.

    This is interesting, but I don’t necessarily see that happening. Take for instance the examples I’ve mentioned with the Kurds under the Ottomans and the Circassians in Jordan. There was/is no pressure on them to become mixed in with everyone else nor was/is there pressure against it – it’s left up to them.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
  22. Talha says:
    @szopen

    if 90% of Poles start to believe Poles are chosen nation

    So basically Judaism for Gentiles…?

    Peace.

    • Replies: @AP
  23. AP says:
    @Talha

    So basically Judaism for Gentiles…?

    This was Nazism, as identified by mid-century Polish nationalists.

  24. utu says:
    @Polish Perspective

    Latin America is now home to 30% of global homicides with less than 8% of the population.

    Unite States is a home to 25% of global prisoners with 5% of the world population.

    If Afro-Americans were removed from the equation the numbers would be: 15% and 4.5%.

    • Replies: @Ali Choudhury
  25. DFH says:

    * Audacious Epigone: MGTOW vs. “How to get a girlfriend” in Google Searches

    I was going to post that googling MGTOW probably has a better chance of you arriving at useful advice than googling ‘how to get a girlfriend’, but I tried the latter and the top couple of results honestly weren’t even that bad. Maybe the pervasiveness of game material has made normie-content up its game.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  26. utu says:
    @Polish Perspective

    Central European countries like V4 were shielded from experiences with other races. Unlike in the US or in your South Africa there was no need to develop racialist or racists doctrines. Racialist doctrines are incompatible with Catholicism while many Protestants churches were racists. However Catholicism can be easily adapted to ethno-nationalism within which the native population and society will be protected from immigration w/o invoking toxic racist ideas one is bound to develop in South Africa. The ethno-nationalism is better because it protects against hostile ethnicities of the same race.

    • Agree: Josep
  27. @utu

    That may be because criminals in significant chunks of the world are able to stay unarrested.

  28. Dmitry says:
    @DFH

    I guess, you would try to predict areas where search “how to get a girlfriend” are more common, will be where there are more frequency of guys who have difficulty to get girlfriends.

    So according to this map, it is more frequency of such guys in central America. It can sound sensible, as their lower population density, less young people in cafes, etc.

    However, what if it just means, areas where, more idiots who write full questions into the search engine?

    This is how my parents are using search engines (writing in long questions as if it is an oracle – and writing full sentences).

    Or what if it means, greater penetration of internet use with 12 and 13 year olds (who are probably the main demographic writing questions like this)?

    At the same time, this phrase, “MGTOW” – is likely only known among a very small minority of older cognoscenti, of stranger parts of the internet.

    In other words, we have a useless chart.

    • Replies: @DFH
  29. utu says:
    @Nznz

    You are correct to perceive neoliberalism as an enemy however by concentrating on the useful idiots who serve as the shock troops and not the real force behind it which is the neoliberal capitalism you will never defeat it. Big money and big corporations. And medium money and medium corporations who have no choice but to play by neoliberal rules which includes getting immigrants and illegals. Would you go after the guy who gave the job to the illegal who killed the jogger in the Midwest? He did what you would have done if you had business and wanted to make bigger profit. If the economic side of the issue is not addressed nothing will change. In American if you say that you did something for money everybody will nod with understanding.

  30. @utu

    However Catholicism can be easily adapted to ethno-nationalism

    How so, when the pope is an open borders fanatic (and an enabler of pederast networks)? The Catholic church is a very hierarchical organization, with limited influence for laymen. If the hierarchy says any form of nationalism is incompatible with Christianity (even a kind of nationalism that merely seeks to restrict immigration, respects the rights of existing minorities and doesn’t have any explicit “racial doctrine”), how can ordinary Catholics disagree?

    • Replies: @szopen
    , @utu
    , @LH
  31. @Nznz

    Why are more intelligent people more socially liberal and more susceptible to POZ than less intelligent proles? Is this because more intelligent people use liberalism as a form of virtue signalling in order to separate themselves from the masses?

    Virtues signalling/psychopathic status maximizers aside, the problem is that those people are not really intelligent. They are midwits, which prevents them from having either true intelligence or natural wisdom.
    They are just intelligent enough to consume propaganda for “intelligent” people such as themselves and get brainwashed.

    We analyze the world through many different abstractions. Simpler people are often wiser because they have not put too many abstract models between themselves and reality, they see the world more or less as it is. And truly intelligent people can also see through any flawed intellectual frames that have been imposed on them, and see reality.

    Midwits however are just intelligent enough to put enough abstractions between themselves and reality so that they don’t see or don’t believe what’s right in front of their eyes.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    , @Talha
    , @Hyperborean
  32. szopen says:
    @German_reader

    Well, then you get what you got in Poland: where both the popular right-wing press and the feeds of my most religious friends declare he is false pope, troyan horse and not true catholic.

    • Replies: @Talha
  33. Dmitry says:
    @Spisarevski

    The agree button does not work for me. But yes – Intelligent people (in knowledge of politics and society), usually understand things like classes, nations, “spheres of influence”, social justice, etc – are (sometimes useful) fictions with no real relevance to themselves, except that debating them can be a fun way to procrastinate, or that sometimes other people reifying such phantoms could ruin your life.

    Generally, intelligence here, could result in an inward focus and return to common sense view, hoping the idiots bewitched by such abstract phantoms, don’t push over the boat, where you sitting.

  34. Mikhail says: • Website

    JRL Promoted Mediocrity

    Re: http://russialist.org/russia-ukraine-johnsons-russia-list-table-of-contents-jrl-2018-176-wednesday-26-september-2018/

    It’s no small wonder why the coverage of Russia related matters continues to lack.

    The above listing of promoted articles, includes this piece from an anonymous JRL promoted court appointed Russia friendly regular, who is a self described sovok (left leaning Soviet nostalgic, as opposed to being in the non-Communist to anti-Communist leaning categories) -

    https://awfulavalanche.wordpress.com/2018/09/26/genocidal-schimasmatics-and-nazi-jews-you-cant-make-this-stuff-up-part-iii/

    Those with a proficient understanding of the discussed history, know that at the time of Napoleon’s invasion of Russia, the ancestors of present day Ukrainians didn’t support him in any significant majority or minority number. In the Austrian Empire of the late 1840s, Russian forces were warmly received by the ancestors of present day Ukrainians, as these soldiers were in route to put down a Hungarian rebellion at the request of the Habsburgs – something that was a mistake – as it created Hungarian animosity towards Russia – with the Habsburgs showing no reciprocity to Russia a few years later during the Crimean War. The Habsburgs were to later prop Ukrainian nationalist/anti-Russian leaning views.

    The anonymous author then goes on to describe the history of the Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church, with zero mention of its development in Ukraine. He probably got his info from an English Wikipedia entry, which acknowledges shortcomings in its content.

    During the Russian Civil War, elements among the short lived German supported Ukrainian regime of Pavlo Skoropadsky, advocated the creation of a Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church. Upon establishing control of what became the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic, the Soviets had briefly propped the Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church, as a means of undercutting the Russian Orthodox Church – at least that’s the view of Orest Subtelny and some others. Later, the Soviets were to reverse that policy, preferring a larger/more centralized Russian Orthodox Church under Soviet restrictions – keeping in mind that the Georgian Soviet dictator Stalin, seemed like he was a bit suspicious of too much of a Ukrainian identity, in conjunction with being somewhat of a Russian nationalist.

    Some other recent examples concerning the subject header:

    https://www.eurasiareview.com/29092018-parallel-universe-thoughts-on-improving-russia-west-relations-oped/

    https://www.eurasiareview.com/07092018-consistency-and-reality-lacking-on-crimea-analysis/

  35. utu says:
    @German_reader

    how can ordinary Catholics disagree

    For Germans to disagree with authority is unthinkable. That’s why you guys had Hitler while Catholic Italians had Mussolini. Big difference. For Catholics disagreeing is not a problem. They do it all the time. That’s why the go to confession. You confess and you can do it again. There is great wisdom how the Catholic system is set up which literal minds of Protestants can’t comprehend.

    • Replies: @German_reader
    , @AP
  36. DFH says:
    @Dmitry

    ‘how to get a girlfriend’ is an english phrase, so the map mostly just shows prevalence of english. The fact that a lot of people are googling it in India does not surprise me though.

  37. @utu

    I’m well aware of Catholic hypocrisy and the “impressive” possibilities it affords Catholics, but even that has its limits. And we’re not talking about some priestly pronouncements about contraceptives or other sexual matters which one can just ignore…the Catholic church as an institution is massively involved in lobbying for mass immigration, and profits financially from it (at least in Germany, where they’re big in the “refugee” business). Under those circumstances loyalty to the church as an institution in its present form and even moderate nationalism are in permanent tension.

    • Replies: @AP
    , @Hyperborean
    , @Thorfinnsson
  38. AP says:
    @utu

    Another gem of a post.

  39. AP says:
    @German_reader

    And yet somehow the most Catholic nation in Europe is the most restrictive of immigration.

    Maybe the real problem is more with Germans than with Catholicism.

    • Replies: @German_reader
  40. Talha says:
    @szopen

    So are you basically saying the church would shed these guys by the hundreds if, say, the next pope was an African or an Arab or even an Armenian?

    If so, Christianity as an institution is in worse shape than I had thought.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @DFH
    , @szopen
  41. DFH says:
    @Talha

    I am a Catholic and would not really have a problem with a non-white Pope so long as he did not promote anti-white racial interests and/or poz, like the current pope

    • Replies: @Talha
  42. Talha says:
    @Spisarevski

    This is completely off; the research of men like Edward Dutton is pretty conclusive that higher IQ correlates with what one would consider Left-Liberal positions. As well as higher likelihood to be gay and autistic, etc. His position is that human beings have a grab bag of traits and some are in opposition to others – what a human being gains in “intelligence” seems to take away from what they have in the “instinct” category.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @Talha
  43. @AP

    And yet somehow the most Catholic nation in Europe is the most restrictive of immigration.

    Lame. There hasn’t been that much migratory pressure on Poland so far, so it’s not like there has been a real test to show how the church there will behave.
    Meanwhile, in Italy, one of the traditional centres of Catholicism, you get stories like this:

    https://www.catholicworldreport.com/2016/08/09/controversy-in-italy-over-muslim-participation-in-masses-said-for-murdered-french-priest/

    https://bari.repubblica.it/cronaca/2016/09/12/news/bari_la_feata_del_sacrificio_in_fiera-147607945/

    A pregare con i musulmani ci sono anche don Franco Lanzolla, parroco della Cattedrale di Bari, e don Vito Piccinonna, direttore della Caritas diocesana. “Siamo tutti credenti, obbediamo alla spiritualità come sorgente di giustizia – conferma don Franco – poi ognuno ha scelto la sua strada, il Vangelo o il Corano”.

    http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/news/2018/07/26/catholic-magazine-compares-italys-matteo-salvini-to-satan/

    You’re in deep denial about what large parts of the Catholic church in Europe actually stand for today.

    • Replies: @AP
  44. Talha says:
    @DFH

    That is a reasonable position. In our tradition, Muslim unity (political as well as religious) is a goal and motivation, but that doesn’t mean at the cost of justice by the composite parts and being treated like dirt by the leadership…as the short-lived Umayyads found out after getting throttled by the mawali-backed Abbasid revolt.

    Peace.

  45. szopen says:
    @Talha

    No. They are criticising him because of many things, not just because of open borders nonsense. His ethnicity and race has nothing to do with that.

    • Replies: @Talha
  46. Talha says:
    @Talha

    Though I will agree that they are not “wise” which is not equivalent to “intelligence” nor ever has been.

  47. AP says:
    @German_reader

    Which country is more friendly to migrants, Italy or Protestant Germany, Sweden, etc.?

    • Replies: @DFH
    , @German_reader
    , @Matra
  48. DFH says:
    @AP

    Least friendly is atheist Czechia

  49. @AP

    Which country is more friendly to migrants, Italy or Protestant Germany, Sweden

    That’s like asking whether plague or cholera is worse. Anyway, the question isn’t whether Italians in general are more anti-immigration than Swedes or Germans (Germans btw aren’t just Protestants, the Catholic church is very influential in parts of Germany), it’s about the attitude of Catholic clergy, and in Italy as in Germany and other European countries the church is definitely lobbying for mass immigration. I’ve read comments on the net by Italians who feel similarly about that as I do, so my sentiment is hardly just some Teutonic specialty.
    You can also read this:

    https://www.firstthings.com/web-exclusives/2018/03/italys-rebellion

    There are disagreements between the Catholic hierarchy and the populists who are trying to reclaim the Christian identity they see as being under threat. The archbishop of Milan, Mario Delpini, criticized Salvini’s use of the Gospel and the rosary at his rally. “Rallies should be about politics,” he argued.

    “I never expected that we would have so many difficulties with the Italian Church,” said Morelli. He tried repeatedly to book an appointment with the archbishop of Milan, to no avail. “They keep telling me they’re busy,” he said. “I don’t understand. There is general hostility from the Catholic Church towards us, but they support the morally relativist and Islamist-friendly Partito Democratico.”

    The key issue is immigration. Whereas Pope Benedict talked about “the right not to emigrate”—the right of would-be emigrants to find livable conditions in their home countries—Pope Francis now talks about Western countries’ “duty to accept” migrants. In 2016, Salvini held up a shirt that read: “My Pope is Benedict.” In a speech in 2016, he reiterated Benedict’s words: “I remember what he said about immigration—that before having the right to emigrate, there should be a right not to emigrate.”

    Pope Francis’s words are increasingly alienating to Europeans who are becoming skeptical about their duty to accept anyone and everyone who reaches their shores. But the Church has doubled down on its position. After the election result showed a win for populist parties, Pope Francis expressed his concern: “The world today is often inhabited by fear. It is an ancient disease. … And fear often turns against people who are foreign, different, poor, as if they were enemies.”

    • Replies: @AP
  50. Talha says:
    @szopen

    Oh ok, thanks for the clarification.

    Peace.

  51. Jon0815 says:
    @AP

    Ukraine keeps winning. 3.8% GDP growth in the second quarter of 2018, which makes it the 11th straight quarter of GDP growth. Given the people leaving ot work abroad, this makes per capita growth much higher.

    Not much higher. World Bank puts Ukraine’s 2017 GDP growth at 2.5%, vs. per capita GDP growth of 2.95%. And for a country as poor as Ukraine, 4% per capita growth is nothing to brag about. At a similar level of per capita GDP, Belarus had per capita growth of 12%, Kazakhstan 9%, and Russia 8%.

    • Replies: @AP
  52. inertial says:

    Sweden turns Pippi Longstocking into homeless Roma migrant living in Stockholm ghetto.

    I know we are supposed to gasp in horror at this, but… for this particular character I can totally see it.

    Using CRISPR for certain genetic edits might be far harder than expected.

    LOL. Prediction: every techno trend you rave about will be “far harder than expected.” Intelligence enhancement, AI, robotization, and so on down the list. Surprise!

  53. Matra says:
    @AP

    Which country is more friendly to migrants, Italy or Protestant Germany, Sweden, etc.?

    Which country is more friendly to migrants, Catholic Spain with its regular amnesties, or Protestant Denmark?

    Which American region is more friendly to migrants, Catholic leftist NY/New England or the conservative Protestant South?

    In Canada and Australia it is the same: Catholics voting for “tolerance” against an under-siege Anglo-Protestant population.

    Polish Catholics have joined the Jewish, Muslim coalition in the UK forever bitching about Brexiter intolerance and calling for more immigrants. Irish Catholics are part of the same coalition.

    BTW the Catholic Church is very hostile to Italy’s great new government. I wouldn’t be surprised if the Church ends up leading the resistance to Salvini’s policies.

    • Replies: @AP
  54. @Dmitry

    If religious prevalence and rates of heroin are able to substitute for each other, then empirical support for Marx’s connection (“Religion is opium of the people”).

    Too literal. Opiates were used to sedate people in pain at the time, so Marx’s meaning was more similar to ‘religion helps people ignore the pains of oppressive society through the creation of a veil of pleasure and illusion’.

    This was a precursor to the ideas of False Consciousness which were developed by Marxist theorists as a synthesis of the idea that ‘Communism is inevitable as the proletariat wakes up and throws off its shakles’ and the antithesis that in reality many commoners didn’t agitate in favour of Communism.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  55. @Erik Sieven

    Muslim students in Europa tend to be more tame than white students, due to their more conersvative upbringing.

    Would you mind elaborating? This is very contrary to my experience.

  56. @Polish Perspective

    The still not dead Henry Kissinger is sane and about as Establishment it gets. He promotes allying with Russia to contain China.

    Gets very little traction.

    Likewise, the actual President of the United States more or less shares this view.

    Still apparently does not matter.

    I am deeply pessimistic about this, and what I’ve learned in the past two years is that we need a fascist dictatorship with massive purges.

    • Replies: @Jon0815
    , @Rosie
  57. @Spisarevski

    I think part of it must be a certain social pressure.

    The family members I interact with for the most part are Socialists/Communists and they can say realistic (‘non-PC’) things about several individual topics but then a curious mental block steps in and they refuse to go down the rabbit hole.

  58. @Polish Perspective

    These American so-called conservatives are even worse than you think. Black dysfunction and criminality was a constant in American history going back to the 17th century. Even in mid 19th century Boston the prisons had more negroes than whites in them.

    They’re pestilence in human form and no social reform can fix them.

    Three groups of people to never admit into your country:

    -Blacks
    -Jews
    -Gypsies

    Everyone else is more or less fine.

    • Replies: @S3
  59. @Nznz

    Intelligent people are more able to indulge in social pathologies without destroying themselves, and want the freedom to indulge themselves.

    I have indulged in most social pathologies and escaped in tact.

    Proles destroy themselves when they do the same.

  60. @German_reader

    Look at our enemies.

    I don’t mean the coloreds, but our fellow whites who are true believers.

    There will be bloodshed.

    It’s on us to be more brutal than them if we want to live.

    I used to believe otherwise, but experience has shown me that there is only one way for this to end.

    We have no choice but to fight, and we will have to be absolutely ruthless.

  61. @Talha

    But then, I have met and interacted with plenty of hardworking and decent African American Muslims who have families and were former criminals which obviously means that religion had a significant impact on their behavior.

    I’ve generally found that most successful, decent blacks are very religious. Usually Christian, but some Mohammedans as well.

  62. @utu

    Racist ideas are not toxic.

    They are wholesome and objectively correct.

    Non-racists are liars and fools.

    • Troll: Josep
  63. @German_reader

    Under those circumstances loyalty to the church as an institution in its present form and even moderate nationalism are in permanent tension.

    Conflict between German Nationalism and Political Catholicism is hardly unknown, I am sure the German National State will find an appropriate solution to the question in the end.

  64. @German_reader

    In America the Lutherans are equally involved in “refugee” settlement as the papists are.

    The truth is that other than hardcore denominations like the Amish that most Christian denominations are now simply liberals who also talk about how nice Jesus Christ was.

    Given that liberalism is really a Christian heresy, this makes sense.

    • Replies: @Rosie
  65. @German_reader

    Obviously it would be better if such a choice could be avoided. But if it can’t, how is one to choose? There are no good answers to this imo.

    I realise that you are supposed to be the voice of reason here, but you can be too thoughtful at times.

    The instinctual answer is and always should be that we should side with our and ours always. No justification needed.

  66. Jon0815 says:
    @Thorfinnsson

    The still not dead Henry Kissinger is sane and about as Establishment it gets. He promotes allying with Russia to contain China.

    Gets very little traction.

    Likewise, the actual President of the United States more or less shares this view.

    Still apparently does not matter.

    I think the problem is less that institutionally the President is unable to overrule the Establishment’s foreign policy preferences, and more that Trump personally is just an easily manipulated dummy.

    If, say, Rand Paul or Tulsi Gabbard were to become president, I gave no doubt that US foreign policy towards Russia, and in general, would look very different.

  67. Rosie says:
    @Thorfinnsson

    I am deeply pessimistic about this, and what I’ve learned in the past two years is that we need a fascist dictatorship with massive purges.

    Agreed, though I wouldn’t call it “fascist dictatorship” but rather “popular democracy.”

    • Replies: @Talha
  68. Mikhail says: • Website

    Quick Takes

    An intellectually challenged rant from someone who has a high opinion of himself:

    https://nobsrussia.com/2018/09/29/finally/

    The so-called propaganda is relative. Actually, pro-Russian advocacy (whether Russian government involved in one way or the other or otherwise) covers the left-right prism.

    Regarding Lavrov’s UNGA address:

    https://www.rt.com/news/439914-west-diktat-un-lavrov/

    Meshes well with this piece, written without knowledge of what Lavrov said in his above discussed address. –

    https://www.strategic-culture.org/news/2018/09/28/parallel-universe-thoughts-on-improving-russia-west-relations.html

    https://www.eurasiareview.com/29092018-parallel-universe-thoughts-on-improving-russia-west-relations-oped/

    As phony, crony, baloney establishment JRL features at its homepage the likes of Michael McFaul and Stephen Hadley-Michael Morrell exchanges. The JRL court appointed Russia friendly regulars don’t care, as long as they get their play.

    What’s needed to improve the coverage are earnestly hard hitting sources, who don’t don’t suck up to the ongoing BS. Showing favoritism for the likes of “The Kremlin Stooge” and “Awful Avalanche”, over the combined input of Srdja Trifkovic, James Jatras, the Strategic Culture Foundation and yes yours truly, among some others is quite warped.

  69. AP says:
    @Matra

    Which country is more friendly to migrants, Italy or Protestant Germany, Sweden, etc.?

    Which country is more friendly to migrants, Catholic Spain with its regular amnesties, or Protestant Denmark?

    Which one has higher percentage Muslims in 2050, Denmark or Spain:

    Indeed, with the exception of France and Austria it is the Protestant countries that have allowed themselves to be taken over the most. Coincidence?

    You are an ingrate. If not for Poles, Ukrainians, Italians etc. in Canada, that country’s Protestants, in addition to being further outnumbered, would have done to themselves what Protestants everywhere, such as England itself, have done to themselves. That’s just what Protestants do. Look at England.

    Which American region is more friendly to migrants, Catholic leftist NY/New England or the conservative Protestant South?

    New England is the whitest region in the USA:

    States with the highest percentages of non-Hispanic Whites, as of 2007:[55]

    Vermont 95.4%
    Maine 94.8%
    West Virginia 93.7%
    New Hampshire 93.4%
    Iowa 90.9%
    North Dakota 90.2%
    Montana 88.3%
    Kentucky 88.1%
    Wyoming 87.7%
    South Dakota 86.5%

    Boston is the only major American city where most kids are born to white parents.

    Lots of Mexicans moving to Georgia, NC and the Protestant southern states and Midwestern Great Plains.

    Polish Catholics have joined the Jewish, Muslim coalition in the UK

    Remove Polish Catholics and the European % of the population of England shrinks further. Polish Catholics in England also reproduce at a higher rate than do English Protestants, no?

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  70. My main complaint about Russia is that all coverage of Russia all over the world lies in its government and geopolitics, and the little tourism industry that exists in Russia is largely geared towards its geopolitical past and present too. RT is a failure in that regard; instead of just covering geopolitics and western domestic politics from an old school leftist angle, it should start promoting Russia as a conservative SWPL stronghold, which means covering not just world news but also news in finance, arts, culture, and entertainment.

    The rest of the world understands and sees far too little of Russian civil society. For Russia to really get past Sovokism, it should let the world understand and appreciate its civil society. Japan is a great example of how relations with its historical enemy, China, rapidly improved after letting China learn about its civil society. By now, a critical mass of Chinese have become fans, which greatly simplifies the current China-initiated thawing of relations.

    Russia should do the same all over the world, but with special focus on the West; by the West, I mean Western Europe; promoting Russian culture and civil society would be an uphill battle in the Anglosphere. Ditto for East and Southeast Asia. However, promote Russia in a negative light in the Arab World, India, and Latin America as we don’t need men from these regions travel in the millions to Russia (Turkish sex tourists in Kiev anyone?)

    Streets and place names should be continued to be renamed imo. All districts, cities, and towns should revert to their original names or renamed into Tsarist era names. Communist streets should be renamed into Tsarist streets. Kremlin stars removed for the Imperial Eagle.

  71. AP says:
    @Jon0815

    Not much higher. World Bank puts Ukraine’s 2017 GDP growth at 2.5%, vs. per capita GDP growth of 2.95%. And for a country as poor as Ukraine, 4% per capita growth is nothing to brag about.

    Why? Morocco has similar nominal per capita GDP and its growth hasn’t been at or above 4% since 2008. Honduras, likewise close to Ukraine and it hasn’t done so since 2006.

    At a similar level of per capita GDP, Belarus had per capita growth of 12%, Kazakhstan 9%, and Russia 8%.

    How was oil price growing at that time? Were any of them at war?

    • Replies: @Jon0815
  72. AP says:
    @German_reader

    Anyway, the question isn’t whether Italians in general are more anti-immigration than Swedes or Germans (Germans btw aren’t just Protestants, the Catholic church is very influential in parts of Germany)

    Are Bavarians more tolerant of migration than people in Berlin? CDU more than CSU?

    Current Pope is unlike the previous one but so far it is not a trend, it’s one person.

    • Replies: @German_reader
  73. Talha says:
    @Polish Perspective

    LOL! I’m such a dork at times…I just realized that you said:
    “So, I do think you’re right that a Middle East without Islam will likely be even bloodier than it is now…”

    Not…
    “So, I don’t think you’re right…”

    Sorry for wasting your time on that point.

    Peace.

  74. Talha says:
    @AquariusAnon

    as we don’t need men from these regions travel in the millions to Russia

    You don’t need to portray Russia in a bad light since that will lose it legitimate business in those countries. Simply tighten up how and who you issue visas to. The two goals need not be mutually exclusive.

    Peace.

  75. AK – what are your thoughts on Linux getting pwned, in Moldbug’s words?

  76. @Talha

    Meh. So’s the blood-brain barrier, but we get through it pretty easily now.

    I imagine we’ll find a way.

    • Replies: @Talha
  77. @AquariusAnon

    You’re assuming that the Russian tourism industry is in trouble, which isn’t true.

    When I was in Kamchatka, it seemed like there was more foreigners there than locals. Juneau is probably a nice city, but somehow I doubt it is a hub of international tourism, despite a similar climate and similar natural attractions.

    P.S. I’m probably not going back to Kamchatka, the tourism industry seemed expensive and very underdeveloped there compared to places in the rest of Russia.

    • Replies: @AquariusAnon
  78. @anonymous coward

    Do you mean Chinese tourists? The cheap group tours trash everywhere they go, so having them in masses is awful too.

    And if you mean by high end tourists from a mix of countries (and I’m including China in here too), its because Kamchatka is known for its natural scenery.

    I’m not even talking about just tourism, but promotion of Russian culture beyond geopolitics: See Russian Anglophilia as an example; this is where the Brits did really well. Large scale Western European Russophilia is needed too in order for Russia to really be that based SWPL shining city upon the hill as Western Europe descends into a chaotic, crime ridden, racially and culturally acrimonious 30% nonwhite shithole barely holding onto first world status by a thread.

    • Replies: @utu
    , @anonymous coward
  79. @AquariusAnon

    Do you mean Chinese tourists?

    Those too, but not only them. Kamchatka is the weird kind of place where you can be driving off-road through the middle of nowhere and find some hitchhiking tourist from Grenoble who doesn’t speak Russian or English.

    its because Kamchatka is known for its natural scenery.

    I’ll tell you a secret — the North American northwest is pretty much the same thing. :)

    See Russian Anglophilia as an example; this is where the Brits did really well.

    Anglophilia is a really old phenomenon, it dates back to the turn of the 19th century. People who engage in it today are doing it in that context; it’s not so much that they like Britain, it’s more that they like that turn-of-the-century aristocratic yet modern aesthetic.

    Large scale Western European Russophilia is needed

    That’s pretty much impossible. Russians don’t give a shit what foreigners think about them, in fact would prefer to be left alone.

  80. @utu

    Lots of flaws with that. For example, Germany and China are top outbound tourism destinations for Russians, according to official stats.

    Obviously, most of that is business and/or personal trips registered as ‘tourism’ officially.

  81. @Daniel Chieh

    Not following that.

    I’m assuming there’ll be forks and the ones not infested with SJW crazies will emerge as the more successful ones, as Gnon wills.

    • Replies: @Mitleser
  82. Mitleser says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    What do you think of Astra Linux?

  83. My two cents on the Catholicism vs. Protestantism debate here…

    1. All these discussions are massively confounded by two factors:

    a) The sort of peoples who went for Protestantism five centuries ago are also the sort of people who may be more prone to #RefugeesWelcome in the first place.

    b) The Protestant countries have generally been economically developed for a longer time period – itself an outgrowth of both their own national qualities, as well as Protestantism’s independent positive effects on increased literacy in prior centuries, which constituted the original source of their economic lead – and thus have had a longer time to build up a larger pool of refugees. Recall that much of Catholic Europe (bar France) only really “converged” with Core Europe after the 1970s… and not fully either.

    Swedish insanity would not be an issue if it had the wages and social welfare of Romania… or even Portugal.

    These issues are so central that I see little point in heated arguments about this issue.

    2. The solution, at least, is rather obvious. Christian hierarchs need to recall that they need to give unto God, God’s, and unto Caesar, Caesar’s.

    If the Antipope who currently squats in the Vatican insists on dictating runaway leftism on his global flock, then he needs to be given the boot. Polish Perspective’s idea about leaving the Roman fold and essentially remodeling Polish Catholicism into a national church is one that makes a lot of sense to me. It’s what Henry VIII did, after all, and for far baser reasons.

    The situation with Protestantism is actually tricker, since there is no central authority that can be rejected and remolded in our own image. But it’s not all bad. It also means that no Protestant pastor has the influence of a Pope, which allows people to flow to congregations closer to their own values. So there, the cultural struggle takes place at the social level, with religion entirely downstream of it.

    • Agree: Hyperborean
  84. Anonymous[392] • Disclaimer says:
    @AquariusAnon

    A country does not just export its culture like it is oil or something.

    What about Russian culture makes it so compelling that other countries would want to be influenced by it and consume it?

    I understand your point, but I don’t see how that is going to happen.

    • Replies: @AquariusAnon
  85. Jon0815 says:
    @AP

    Why? Morocco has similar nominal per capita GDP and its growth hasn’t been at or above 4% since 2008. Honduras, likewise close to Ukraine and it hasn’t done so since 2006.

    They don’t have Ukraine’s human capital. To have an average IQ of about 100, per capita GDP of <$3000, and still generate per capita growth of only 3-4% is not very impressive. The Eurozone managed 2% growth in 2017, with nearly 15 times Ukraine’s per capita GDP.

    How was oil price growing at that time?

    Even if you completely discount oil’s share of their per capita growth, it was still much faster than Ukraine’s growth at the same per capita GDP level.

    Serbia (significantly lower average IQ than Ukraine) reached 9% per capita growth, and averaged about 7%, at similar per capita level. Romania reached 10% and averaged around 8%. Etc.

    Were any of them at war?

    To the extent that low-grade conflict in Donbass is a war, it is a war of choice that Ukraine could end at any time, simply by not lobbing shells into civilian neighborhoods any more.

    • Replies: @AP
  86. Talha says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    Possibly – if God allows (like the splitting of the atom or breaking through the atmosphere), then anything on this front is not beyond reach…whether one should do it is another matter.

    I actually don’t really care what non-Muslims do on this front – even if they go into human genetic manipulation – any more than I care that they eat pork while bathing in a vat of Smirnoff. I think there are some potentially very dangerous outcomes as you mess with that stuff, I’d rather not have some kind of a Jurassic Park/12 Monkeys/Planet of the Apes situation.

    So I would like this kind of research eventually isolated to an island or something that can be easily quarantined or (if necessary) glassed.

    The ideal would be to make it go hand in hand with the colonization of Mars so that a new human species or whatever they want to call themselves arises on another planet.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  87. Talha says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    Christian hierarchs need to recall that they need to give unto God, God’s, and unto Caesar, Caesar’s.

    This is very interesting because it is often the cry of the Liberal-Left in marginalizing the religious voice or sentiment in society. Caesar, of course, was a pagan ruler who was outside the sphere of influence. The nascent Christian community had neither the means to challenge or seriously influence Caesar. Caesar did what he willed and the subjects dealt with circumstances as best they could.

    Now – while we have taken on democratic forms (almost universally in the West) – we, ourselves are Caesar-collective. Caesar is us and we are Caesar.

    The underlying assumption here is that – God must listen to our dictates or step aside. It is interesting how pervasive the Enlightenment-era concepts are. Both sides of the opposition are mired to the same discourse…both want God and His institutions “remolded in our own image.”

    Perhaps it’s simply not something that can be escaped (in the long run) in religions where God incarnates into an avatar of one form or another…I don’t know.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @German_reader
  88. @AP

    Are Bavarians more tolerant of migration than people in Berlin?

    Southern Germany is indeed better than northwest Germany, but there’s no correlation with Catholicism imo. North-Rhine-Westphalia is an absolute shit state and pc nightmare, and has a heavy Catholic imprint (e.g. its current prime minister Armin Laschet, a loyal Merkel servant and once called “Türken-Armin” because of his pandering to Turks, is a pious Catholic; Rhineland Catholics are a very large part of the CDU).
    The most anti-migration parts of Germany are of course in the former East Germany where a large part of the population isn’t even nominally Christian anymore.
    As for the CSU, I’ve already mentioned in a previous thread that their chief representative in the European parliament Manfred Weber is agitating for African mass immigration. The CSU today is largely a fraud, and there’s a significant likelihood that they’ll enter into a coalition with the fanatically open borders-Greens after the Bavarian elections in mid-October.
    As for the pope, I’m reasonably certain that one could find pro-migration statements by John Paul II, and the catechism of the Catholic Church has a section about the duty (!) of developed countries to accept even purely economic migrants. Ratzinger wasn’t that offensive, but the general trend of the Catholic church is definitely pro-open borders.

  89. Talha says:
    @Rosie

    rather “popular democracy.”

    Indeed, democracy legitimizes everything the masses want – as long as they want it. It is beautiful in a sense…absolute, morally impervious, invincible even.

    “We will it and it shall be so…” …tremendous! We are now Prometheus and the fire is ours to do with as we please!

    Peace.

  90. @Anatoly Karlin

    Polish Perspective’s idea about leaving the Roman fold and essentially remodeling Polish Catholicism into a national church is one that makes a lot of sense to me.

    It makes sense to you, because you’re not a believer (at least it doesn’t seem like that to me) and have a purely instrumental view of religion. If one believes that the pope is indeed the vicar of Christ on earth, the issue of breaking away from Rome (after more than a thousand years…and in the case of Poland also untold numbers of Catholic priests and devout laymen who died for patriotic causes) becomes rather more difficult on both an intellectual and emotional level.

    • Replies: @AP
  91. AP says:
    @Jon0815

    How was oil price growing at that time?

    Even if you completely discount oil’s share of their per capita growth, it was still much faster than Ukraine’s growth at the same per capita GDP level.

    Serbia (significantly lower average IQ than Ukraine) reached 9% per capita growth, and averaged about 7%, at similar per capita level. Romania reached 10% and averaged around 8%. Etc.

    It’s also a matter of timing. Prior to 2008 Ukraine had reached 12% growth. Post 2009, 4% is rather good.

    https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.MKTP.KD.ZG?locations=UA-RS

  92. AP says:
    @German_reader

    Correct. And there have been worse Popes in the past. This one will pass also.

  93. @Talha

    Your outcome is negative for infants with genetic diseases.

    • Replies: @Talha
  94. @Talha

    It is interesting how pervasive the Enlightenment-era concepts are.

    It has nothing to do with the Enlightenment, there’s a long history of conflict between the papacy and secular powers, going back at least to the 1070s when pope Gregory VII and the German king (later Roman emperor) Henry IV tried to depose each other. The reference to “give unto Caesar” was a common tactic for kings and other secular powers to argue against papal encroachments (which around 1200 basically took the form of pretensions to a universal papal monarchy with the right of demanding complete obedience from the kings of Christendom, kind of like a Christian caliph). Arguments about the proper relationship between the church and secular rulers have been a prominent feature of at least Western Christendom for a very long time (I don’t know enough about the Orthodox world, maybe Karlin or some Russian commenter can comment).
    It’s kind of telling that you’re apparently unable to understand this, yet more proof how different and alien Islam is.

    • Replies: @Talha
    , @LondonBob
  95. Rosie says:

    Back in my good graces (not that he cares):

    https://dailystormer.name/queen-ann-calls-out-nonsensical-jewsmedia-talking-point-that-only-brown-people-understand-rape-victims/

    And with that, I am sold on Ann being Tucker’s running mate in 2024.

  96. Dmitry says:
    @Hyperborean

    Sure, Marx more sophisticated for my comment.

    But it is nonetheless, such a simplistic connection between these narcotics. Administration of unbelievable dogmas of organized religion, and of opiates.

    Jung’s project for curing addiction to drugs – would be as indication of need for some kind of spiritual quest. But fairly, his concept of “analysis” for his patients, at least is not such simple religious indoctrination or faith in various unbelievable dogmas.

  97. @Anatoly Karlin

    The “starting your own church” part is only really true in America. The state churches of northern Europe are very centralized. Every priest goes through state university training and even theology is now extremely pozzed. In a couple of decades they went from not admitting females to the majority of new priests being female.

    Starting your own church is about as realistic as starting your own Facebook. You can’t use the church buildings, you no longer get to bury people in local graveyards and so on. In a smaller town the church probably owns a lot of family stuff like camping grounds, playgrounds and such so if you start your own church your kids can’t join the boy scouts, they’ll be shut out of some daycares and so on. The church is an effective monopoly over a lot of important stuff.

    I grew up in a small town and I went to school with some kids from really religious families who had left the Lutheran church for being too pozzed and they were pretty damn isolated from the rest of us. The Lutheran church is all about “tolerance” and “inclusion” when it comes to Muslims but it’s not even remotely “tolerant” or “inclusive” with traditionalist Christian movements.

    At this point I’m an accelerationist, let them give us transsexual priests, Muslims welcome parties and the like until everyone agrees that we should dismantle the Lutheran church and nationalize its properties like the commies always wanted. Though the leftists might flip on this if they realize that the church now belongs to them…

    • Replies: @German_reader
  98. Dmitry says:
    @AP

    Have you explored Spain? I’ve traveled across the country two years ago.

    Spain is full of Latin American (people like Mexican, Colombian, Bolivian, etc) immigrants and their children, which mainly have Spanish citizenship. This is by far the largest immigrant group. Latin American people are a huge group there, even in provincial areas.

    There are far more Catholic than Muslim immigrants to Spain (like in the USA). Although you hear quite a lot of Arab guys (hear more than see, because the guys visually similar to Spanish people) around Spain, as their Arabic conversations in the air.

    • Replies: @AP
    , @DFH
    , @LondonBob
  99. @Jaakko Raipala

    The state churches of northern Europe are very centralized.

    In Germany there are now quite a few evangelical churches unaffiliated with the mainline Protestants (who are pretty much moribund, if still powerful, and merely the spiritual arm of the Green party).

  100. @Anonymous

    Right now, not much, but what stops it from making good movies, music, and its own brand of SWPL culture mixed with conservatism/nationalism that’s exportable?

    Keep in mind that Sovokism was exported worldwide to varying degrees of success.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  101. g2k says:

    Unz review needs to be a bit careful, neoliberalism.txt has cloudfare in its crosshairs:

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/sep/30/we-cant-stop-spread-of-hate-get-tough-with-technology-giants-jo-cox

    Comments disabled of course.

  102. @Daniel Chieh

    It’s a self-own if anything. Linus Torvalds is one of the militant leftists who somehow thought that the leftism would never get to him. I think a lot of people mistook him as some sort of a shitlord because he was a big rude NIMBY who wanted to run *his* project *his* way and got into arguments with SJWs but he was never against them in principle, just for his project.

    Mr Torvalds used to be a very active poster on Finnish USENET in the 1990s and he was one of the militant atheist skeptic people, the generation of aggressive leftists that came before the current generation of SJW trannies and PoC-allies. I think he tried to hide it in English for a while after he got feedback that making fun of Jesus at every opportunity could be bad for career prospects in America but this whole extremely leftish ethos of the “free software” stuff should have been a clue that the man was raised as a communist.

    His father is a MEP and one of the worst people in this country…

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nils_Torvalds

    …one of the “former communist” journalists who have switched sides from pro-Sovietism to NATO, EU and “diversity”. Linus rarely comments on our politics these days but when he does he is in agreement with his “former communist” father and the rest of his “former communist” family. If the SJWs destroy Linux with “diversity” it is just desserts for Linus.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    , @S3
  103. Talha says:
    @German_reader

    You completely missed my point.

    You think I’m not aware of the conflict between secular rulers and religious authorities? All four of the founders of the surviving Sunni schools of law were either jailed, tortured or exiled (or a combination of the three) by the ruling caliphal authorities.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @German_reader
  104. @Talha

    I didn’t, but then I honestly don’t care about your sanctimonious Islamic propaganda nonsense that you insist on forcing on us at every opportunity.

    • Replies: @utu
    , @Talha
    , @iffen
  105. @AquariusAnon

    My main complaint about Russia is that all coverage of Russia all over the world lies in its government and geopolitics, and the little tourism industry that exists in Russia is largely geared towards its geopolitical past and present too. RT is a failure in that regard; instead of just covering geopolitics and western domestic politics from an old school leftist angle, it should start promoting Russia as a conservative SWPL stronghold, which means covering not just world news but also news in finance, arts, culture, and entertainment.

    I liked the whole post, but this is the key part.

    I would add only that such a change of course would also build great soft power. I believe it was Dmitry who wrote, half a year or so ago, that to study a foreign language is to fall in love with its culture. I very much agree with this and think the idea can be generalized to culture: the more you dip your toes into a foreign culture, the more it becomes part of you, and the more protective you get about it. This is soft power. (Psychologically, we may think of it as a general case of the familiarity effect: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mere-exposure_effect)

  106. Talha says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    I’ve got no problems (in general) with research in trying to cure diseases (very reliable Hanafi scholars had already outlined the circumstances under which stem cell research could be done if certain conditions were fulfilled a while ago). There is a difference between curing disease (correcting dysfunction) and enhancements/upgrades to wet ware. Where the boundary lies…I have no clue, but scholars will debate and figure out the rulings (likely differing on certain details).

    Of interest to the subject:

    Peace.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  107. utu says:
    @German_reader

    Your Islamophobia, the only phobia that you allow yourself to harbor, might be a manifestation of your repressed Anti-Semitism.

    • LOL: iffen
    • Replies: @Ron Unz
  108. Tyrion 2 says:

    * Diversity Macht Frei: More “British Jews” in the IDF Than British Armed Forces.

    Obviously this isn’t great, however there is a discrepancy in the way the two statistics are collected.

    The IDF Brits are Jews simply if they’re in the IDF, so all are counted even if not actually Jewish.

    Meanwhile, the British Army Jews need to self-report. Something I, for example, were I ever in that situation, would never do. The latter point is significant.

    Also, the women are a lot more numerous and a lot more attractive (on average) in the Israeli Army than the British. (Thanks, no doubt, to conscription rather than high T self-selection.)

    And as a Brit over there Israeli ladies will treat you like an exotic delicacy, which must be very exciting for the Nebbish North London Jewish stereotype.

    Finally, the British Army has been starved of funding since the financial crash, shrinking and mission-less since the end of formal combat operations in Afghanistan. Morale is rockbottom and even small perks, like historical barracks in cool, fun neighbourhoods, have been sold off and replaced with super garrisons in boring, (attractive) women free remote locations. This is not what young men want.

    Actually, one more: the progressives have been ruining it for a while and the marketing material shows it. An eighth of the core annual syllabus was devoted to diversity and it has surely got worse.

    Basically, sex, sun and a sense of purpose with an allied nation or the poz, rain and anomie at home.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    , @German_reader
  109. Talha says:
    @German_reader

    You did completely – to assume the current Western paradigm is the same as the time of kings and emperors is folly.

    You are trying to negotiate a position for the Church that suits your interests, which makes sense. It is a powerful tool for formation of societies, best to have it on one’s side. Followers of the Church must decide whether they will want to take input from from people outside their own tradition due solely to your ancillary relationship as a German or a White person or whatever.

    I know if a bunch of ex-Muslims tried to tell us how best to restructure our religious institutions in order to better accommodate their interests, we’d ignore them.

    I get you don’t like my input; why would you? I would suggest either ignoring me or asking Mr. Karlin to ask me to leave.

    Peace

    • Replies: @German_reader
  110. Dmitry says:
    @Tyrion 2

    Difference will be, that IDF is a conscripting everyone army, including for immigrants. Any under person 22 (with Jewish descent to the third generation), who is eligible to live in Israel, and is not religious (in Judaism), or a married woman, will be conscripted, on immigration to Israel.

    So the data is just measuring what proportion of young (under 22) people of Jewish descent in the UK, have repatriated to Israel. In this case, presumably figures of immigration to Israel, is higher than people joining as a career, the professional British military (the latter probably unpopular career choice).

    In addition, Israel will give all these people (immigrants to Israel) free university degrees (i.e. going to university without paying tuition fees) – while in the UK, people have to pay money for university studies. Many will likely return to UK after studies,

    • Agree: Tyrion 2
    • Replies: @LondonBob
  111. @Talha

    I care, I really do.

    • Replies: @Talha
  112. AP says:
    @Dmitry

    Never been to Spain, only Mexico (Tijuana), in the late 90s. Middle-class “nice” areas of Tijuana reminded me of eastern Europe. I was never in Hungary, but it might have been similar. There were even “gypsies” – lots of little kids at 2 AM trying to sell chiclets to people. They didn’t pick pockets though. There was an incredible nightclub there, Baby Rock, which closed long ago.

    I’ll probably visit Argentina, where some cousins moved from Ukraine, before I do Spain.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  113. Talha says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    Oh I completely assume you don’t care – I don’t expect non-Muslims to stop due to any scruples we have. I think the bifurcation of mankind into humans and humans+ is a very real scenario. At that point, the only concern will be how to interact with them; marriage, etc.

    Peace.

  114. LH says:
    @German_reader

    Catholic hierarchy in the Czech Republic is quite strongly against immigration. It is probably opportunistic position, they have no strength to go against the population.

  115. Anonymous[392] • Disclaimer says:
    @AquariusAnon

    Never heard of Sovokism.

    It is true that it is theoretically possible for Russia to export its culture, but that is true for any country.

    What sticks out about Russia that makes its culture unique?

    That I can tell, Russia is not really known for anything positive in the west besides caviar and vodka. These are luxurious items but not much to work with here.

    There are very famous Russian writers who put out good work, but I don’t think that is enough.

    • Replies: @AquariusAnon
  116. Dmitry says:
    @AP

    Lol, I went to Tijuana for an afternoon last year – a little scary. But if it’s representative of Mexico, it’s a lot more similar to America.

    Anyway, in relevance to the topic. Spain combines a very safe and liberal atmosphere – people smoking openly cannabis everywhere, brothels on many streets, and casinos in centers of larger cities.

    German Reader is correct about the church’s attitude in Spain. Inside the churches, signs about donating to help refugees – I was there all summer 2016. This seems the cause they were interested in at least that year (2016). I think they also were also giving food to refugees in a lot of towns.

    More interesting for us, was how Spain manage to achieve such cheap prices of beer and coffee, compared to the rest of Western Europe. There was even Russian man who was selling Russian beers from this kind of shed in the center of one town in Basque Country. This guy sell us 5 large cans of different Russian beer for 3 euros (crazy how he was making a profit).

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    , @iffen
  117. @Talha

    to assume the current Western paradigm is the same as the time of kings and emperors is folly

    I didn’t write that – it’s YOU who missed the point completely. When Karlin mentioned “render unto Caesar” you launched into your usual tirades about the evils of the contemporary west, horrible Enlightenment etc. But whatever one may think about the Enlightenment, the question of the proper relationship between the church and the world has nothing to do with it, because it goes right back to the origins of Christendom and led to severe conflicts between popes and worldly powers centuries before the Enlightenment. But it’s telling you don’t understand that, because such a separation between the two spheres has of course never existed in Islam, and since you’re mentally stuck in your Islamic ghetto where nothing but the pronouncements of your religious “scholars” matters, you’ve obviously never bothered to try to come to any understanding of Western history, in either its Christian or its secular form.
    And yes, I do indeed find your comments here highly annoying, since your constant promotion of your religion, with its thinly veiled contempt for everyone else, gets on my nerves. I tend to scroll over your comments, but since there are so damn many of them, I can’t always resist the temptation to react to them, even if it’s obviously a waste of time.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    , @Talha
  118. Dmitry says:
    @Dmitry

    There was even Russian man who was selling Russian beers from this kind of shed in the center of one town in Basque Country.

    This man is in the center of the old town of Vitoria-Gasteiz, if anyone wants to visit him – I hope he is still there.

  119. Dmitry says:
    @German_reader

    your usual tirades about the evils of the contemporary west, horrible Enlightenment

    It makes me more appreciate the contemporary West, when I read stuff like this.

  120. @Tyrion 2

    Basically, sex, sun and a sense of purpose with an allied nation

    I’m unaware there’s any treaty of alliance between Israel and the UK (even if there’s certainly a lot of cooperation in military and security matters).
    Sorry, but your rationalizations are really lame. Jews whose Jewish identity is so strong they want to serve in the IDF, should permanently move to Israel and give up their British citizenship. Anything else should bring fully deserved charges of dual loyalty.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    , @Tyrion 2
    , @LondonBob
  121. Talha says:
    @German_reader

    Wow – let’s spin into a bunch of ad hominem shall we…

    I completely understand the conflict between the Church and secular powers in European history. In a democracy (which is a fairly recent precedent in its current form), you and people like Mr. Karlin are the potential secular powers – or as far as your voice in the process allows.

    Basically what I’m hearing from the secular side – to them – is; here, you guys should really change this, this and that – dismantle this and that – so that our vision of society has a better chance of coming into fruition.

    However if the followers of the Church attempt to form and influence their society around their own principles and priorities and vision, they are met with “render unto Caesar (us), keep your religion out of politics.”

    Which is why I am so glad our ulema have understood the one-direction game that modernity is playing and held the line.

    I don’t know what is best for the Catholic Church to do, not my religion – it is their internal debate to hash out. However, I’d like to point out to them that perhaps they should be considering how long they have been listening to voices outside their tradition and where it has brought them.

    I do indeed find your comments here highly annoying

    And I’m fairly certain the CEO of Budweiser is likely praying to whatever gods he believes in hoping we Muslims just go away…so get in line.

    I can’t always resist the temptation to react to them, even if it’s obviously a waste of time.

    I suggest pressing “IGNORE COMMENTER” so you are not tempted. It’s like if you want to lose weight, it’s best to leave the cookies on the supermarket shelf. Remember, you responded to me chief, I said nothing to you.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @German_reader
  122. @Talha

    However, I’d like to point out to them that perhaps they should be considering how long they have been listening to voices outside their tradition and where it has brought them.

    Oh shut the fuck up with your sanctimonious nonsense. I’m not trying to tell Catholics what they should think about abortion, premarital sex or whatever…I’m pissed at them because the church is facilitating an invasion of my country…primarily of your damned co-religionists. But no surprise that you think this is wonderful.
    Also bizarre that a Muslim interloper like you inserts himself into intra-Western debates and then tries to lecture me about my views about the church. Typical Islamic insolence.

    • Replies: @Talha
  123. Dmitry says:
    @German_reader

    Comment is redundant – they are the people, who are immigrating to Israel. If you immigrate there, after several months the government will send a letter about the conscription.

    But, there’s also free university for immigrants (which is not the case for British people in the UK). Cost-benefit could be even rational (army is a cost of immigration for youth, but the free university is a benefit).

    My friend was for some months in the Israeli army. But afterwards now in medical school where the tuition fee is free (whereas native Israelis have to pay thousands of dollars of tuition fee for medical school, where it is considered unreasonably expensive, for these immigrants tuition fee for medical school is paid from the state budget).

  124. Tyrion 2 says:
    @German_reader

    I don’t really disagree*. I’m just well placed to understand both sides and personally beyond reproach in this matter. It seems my perspective may be quite rare.

    It also allowed me to vent about the many ways the British Army has been made less fun (and effective), even as the senior officers are trying to dig themselves out by doubling down on the poz.

    *There are always exceptions. I don’t think Orwell should have become a citizen of Spain, for example.

    Also, by “allied”, I suppose I meant “friendly”. Apologies for the loose terminology.

    And perhaps even this is a stretch, given that my fashionable London municipality was flying the Palestinian flag on top of our townhall for decades even while refusing to fly our own British national flag. Something about the latter being “racist” or something…

    …now they fly the EU flag…it was put up after the successful vote to leave the EU…smh

    • Replies: @German_reader
    , @DFH
    , @Dmitry
  125. @Jaakko Raipala

    More evidence both for high-iq and wildly self-destructive nature of leftism.

  126. @Tyrion 2

    I don’t think Orwell should have become a citizen of Spain, for example.

    I don’t really have a positive view of the leftist volunteers in Spain tbh, even if one has of course to acknowledge that partly their actions were a reaction to the interventions by Nazi Germany and fascist Italy. It’s dubious how they are uncritically revered as heroes by many in Britain. The republican side in Spain committed many atrocities itself and wasn’t the side of pure good.
    But anyway, I don’t really blame Jews who want to serve in the IDF, and for now of course there isn’t a really serious contradiction between that and citizenship in a Western country. But such dual loyalties inevitably raise the question of how one would choose in the event of a serious conflict (e.g. what if Israel ever gets completely dominated by the hardcore national religious?). So I don’t think such behavior should be beyond criticism, even if alt-rightish people get unduly fixated on it due to their own obsessions.

    • Replies: @iffen
  127. DFH says:
    @Tyrion 2

    Take your Jewish apologetics somewhere else. Every sentence just proves you’re not really British.

    • Replies: @Tyrion 2
  128. Talha says:
    @German_reader

    I’m not trying to tell Catholics what they should think

    Of course not, the discussion was simply about splitting the institution of its internal authority – who brought up abortion?

    I’m pissed at them because the church is facilitating an invasion of my country

    Of course, which goes back to my earlier point.

    But no surprise that you think this is wonderful.

    Nope, I’ve been on record multiple times that I have zero problems with shutting down immigration – so try again.

    intra-Western debates

    That’s your framing – I can frame as intra-Abrahamic…see how that works. You’re an atheist, why should they listen to you? I mean they should ignore me also if I tried to tell them that further fissuring their structures of authority are within their interests.

    I really think you should just ignore me, aneurisms are no laughing matter.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @German_reader
  129. DFH says:
    @Dmitry

    I know a lot of Spaniards and they don’t look like Arabs

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  130. @Talha

    I mean they should ignore me also if I tried to tell them that further fissuring their structures of authority are within their interests.

    Which I didn’t, actually I was explicitly sceptical about proposals for creating a “national church” in Poland or anywhere else.
    But yes, it’s probably better to end this discussion, your insolence is just too much. Depressing to think that many gullible Christians will probably fall for the kind of “our common Abrahamic roots” nonsense people like you are employing to advance their Islamic agenda.

    • Replies: @Talha
    , @Swedish Family
    , @iffen
  131. Mitleser says:

    Macron’s new bodyguards?

    The Merkel loyalist and the Turkish conquerer

  132. @Mitleser

    Macron’s new bodyguards?

    Probably his lovers, the guy just has to be a homo.

  133. Talha says:
    @German_reader

    advance their Islamic agenda.

    We are always advancing Islam, I’m asking Catholics to think about what their own interests are.

    The Church already has earlier paradigms and internal debates and internal tools as to how to halt immigration from Muslim countries; “Why the hell are we letting in all these Saracen heathens??!! Viva Christendom!”

    Of course, then they might look around and see themselves surrounded by unbelievers such as yourself and who knows what would transpire then…”Deus Vult”.

    There is quite a bit of overlap actually in agendas. In some of the Catholic circles (people like Robert P. George* and others) that are working with Muslim scholars and institutions in the US, the main concern is not on immigration right now – the bigger concern is stopping the poz steamroller.

    Peace.

    *Who wrote this great book:

    https://global.oup.com/academic/product/making-men-moral-9780198260240?cc=us&lang=en&#

    • Replies: @German_reader
    , @Talha
  134. @Talha

    There is quite a bit of overlap actually in agendas. In some of the Catholic circles (people like Robert P. George* and others) that are working with Muslim scholars and institutions in the US

    Those people are despicable fools, the only question is whether they’ll eventually be the despised servants of their Muslim masters or be done away with by Western nationalists.
    There’s no better way to ensure anti-Christian hostility by millions of Westerners than Christians cooperating with Muslims and acting as pro-Islamic apologists. An absurdly foolish policy, all the more so when it happens at a time when Christians are being expelled from the Mideast by Islamic fanatics.

    • Replies: @Talha
  135. Talha says:
    @German_reader

    There’s no better way to ensure anti-Christian hostility by millions of Westerners

    They are already hated by millions of Westerners; the poz would like to choke them to death. They are in an unenviable position and need to make some hard choices about priorities. It doesn’t help that Christianity continues to shed numbers faster than other religions. They might gain a lot of credit if they come out strongly at the head of an alliance against the poz. It is a calculation they must make.

    when Christians are being expelled from the Mideast by Islamic fanatics.

    To their great credit, Catholics have often been (out of the Western Christian tradition) the most capable of making distinctions between Muslim extremists and normative Islam:

    http://m.ncregister.com/daily-news/jordans-shows-mercy-and-generosity-towards-displaced-christians#.W7EjcRZOmEc

    And were generally more opposed to the initial invasions that set the ME on fire in the first place. Hats and turbans off to them…

    Peace.

    • Replies: @German_reader
  136. @German_reader

    But yes, it’s probably better to end this discussion, your insolence is just too much. Depressing to think that many gullible Christians will probably fall for the kind of “our common Abrahamic roots” nonsense people like you are employing to advance their Islamic agenda.

    I don’t get why you are so bothered with Talha. He has written many times that he is against mass immigration, and it’s natural that he should speak well of his faith, just as Christians do of theirs.

    • Replies: @German_reader
  137. Talha says:
    @Talha

    I’m wondering if some of the Catholic voices here get what I’m talking about or am I completely off base? I’m not expecting them to agree with me, but are the points I am making valid?

    • Replies: @Anon
  138. Tyrion 2 says:
    @DFH

    Even seeing the occasional white grandmother with mulatto infant is soul-crushing though.

    Soul crushing?

    • Replies: @Mitleser
  139. AaronB says:

    Who wants to bet German Reader will end up converting to Islam :)

    And utu to Judaism lol.

    And Daniel Chieh will start drinking and taking drugs and learn how to enjoy his wetware and stop abusing women.

    The world cracks me up :)

    • Replies: @iffen
    , @utu
    , @Daniel Chieh
  140. @Talha

    They might gain a lot of credit if they come out strongly at the head of an alliance against the poz.

    No, they won’t. Christians who think they should make common cause with Muslims against homos and secularism are very, very foolish, and one way or the other it will end badly for them. It will turn even many people who are merely indifferent towards Christianity into fervent enemies and confirm the view, already widespread among nationalists, that Christianity today is a subversive suicide cult, highly detrimental to the interests of Europeans.
    And for what? For the benefit of a religion whose adherents are viciously intolerant even towards long-established Christian communities in the Mideast, whose founder is the very epitome of the false prophets Christ warned against. There can be no greater idiocy.

    • Replies: @Talha
  141. @Swedish Family

    I find Islam offensive, like a worse version of communism.
    Talha has also stated many times that he hopes for the Islamization of Europe (as is of course his duty as a devout Muslim) – or rather, that he is certain it will eventually happen. That attitude is the reason why there can at best be a truce with Muslims, genuine dialogue with mutual respect is impossible.

    • Replies: @Swedish Family
    , @AP
  142. Talha says:
    @Mitleser

    I will 100% agree this is an offense and affront to the German nation; displays of foreign flags should be taken as a public nuisance, violation of social contract and interdicted.

    Peace.

  143. Dmitry says:
    @DFH

    In Spain, walking along, and suddenly hearing Arabic from guys I imagine are Spanish. Likewise, in the bus, suddenly hearing Arabic, from young women next to me I imagine were Spanish.

    -

    For Spanish guys who look like this (which I guess is about half of people in Spain), I don’t notice a difference without hearing them speak (this Andaluz people).

    • Replies: @German_reader
  144. @Anonymous

    Sovokism is just Communism, or more like the culture and lifestyle that Soviet Communism brought about.

    Well, do the same as what the Soviets have done: Music and movies to start with. Russia still produces some very good music (especially in hip hop and deep house) and movies. They can start with that; South Korea is a good template to follow in terms of how to build an entire exportable entertainment industry from scratch, except Russians already have a robust entertainment industry for domestic consumption; that can easily be turned into a massive exportable industry.

    Food: I can see Western SWPLs pick up on stuff like borscht, blini, and beef stroganoff. SWPLize these foods and mass export them to the West (and the East)

    Russian ballet is already famous worldwide. Instead of promoting just the military, Russia can promote that too for civilian consumption. This includes other high culture such as classical music and artists for bourgeois consumption (who are still very important to win the hearts and minds of, as they wield outsized power)

    Literature: Authors like Tolstoy and Chekhov should have quite a few fans among bourgeois Europeans, at least not any less than other authors from the same era like Jane Austen which is known worldwide.

    I believe Russia has quite a few decent high end fashion designers. Their stuff should be promoted worldwide.

    VK, Yandex, and Telegram can definitely be improved and refined to go head-to-head against the Silicon Valley giants.

    Once the cultural and environmental basis for a Russophile fanbase in Europe has been created, especially among bourgeois, expect not only large scale easing of sanctions, but also attract Western expertise to build homegrown heavy industry and high-fashion icons.

    • Replies: @Swedish Family
    , @Matra
  145. Dmitry says:
    @Tyrion 2

    Neither of you understand the process – these are people immigrating (repatriating) to Israel, this is how they are ended up conscripted. They don’t want to go to army (except for insane people).

    For this group (apart from some weird people), the army is cost (negative of some months, depending on age), while the benefit is that university is free for them (tuition fee is free).

    So my friend has done a program in studying in Israeli boarding school for several years (all boarding school fees free and paid for by Israel). When he was 18 years old, he left Israel (without immigrating to Israel) to avoid the army.

    When he was 21 he returned (immigrated) to Israel – but still had to join the army for about 8 months.

    After this, his entire medical school paid for (for free) by Israeli government. By comparison Israeli people, have to pay thousands of dollars of tuition (actually many are studying in medical in Ukraine or Russia to save money).

    His girlfriend, who has also studied in the Israeli boarding school, has even avoided the army completely (without leaving Israel), by saying somehow she was religiously Jewish (although she was actually baptised in Russia and not with any religious connection).

  146. @Dmitry

    That Spaniard doesn’t look Arab.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  147. Talha says:
    @German_reader

    suicide cult, highly detrimental to the interests of Europeans.

    Post-modern European culture is already suicidal, the question is how to get it out of the rut. If the Catholics are confident in their doctrine they’ll know they have the answer for society’s ailments.

    For the benefit of a religion

    No – for their own benefits…you seem to have let this get too personal and are completely ignoring my arguments.

    false prophets Christ warned against

    See what I’m talking about? They don’t need an atheist telling them this, this was basically the teachings of their early Church fathers. I’m telling people, they have all that they need within their own tradition to map out a way forward as they see best for their vision of society.

    Peace.

  148. Dmitry says:
    @German_reader

    Bodylanguage and everything, is different to Arab, so local people surely see a difference.

    But walk in street in Spain – and Spanish look like that guy, and Arab immigrants often like guys below (not black skinned Saudi Arabs), then it’s nothing surprising tourist like me does not notice who are the Arabs there.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  149. Dmitry says:
    @Dmitry

    E.g.
    Salma Hayek – half Arab
    Shakira – half Arab,
    Penelope Cruz -Spanish.

    Yet if I had guess of the three, externally – I would think Penelope Cruz as the more Arab descended one?

    • Replies: @German_reader
  150. @Dmitry

    Salma Hayek – half Arab
    Shakira – half Arab

    Arab in that case means Lebanese Christian. I’ve never been to the Mideast (why should I…it’s coming to me anyway, lol), but my impression is that Lebanese Christians are often fairly light types of the Mediterranean kind.
    To be blunt, Sunni Arabs often seem to be a lot darker (sometimes downright Negroid).
    Anyway, I’m not that keen on discussing physical types, but the Spaniard in your video, while not exactly Nordic-looking, wouldn’t be obviously out of place in much of Europe imo.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    , @Hyperborean
  151. iffen says:
    @German_reader

    You are off target with your criticism of Talha.

  152. iffen says:

    I leave for RL for a day and you people go bonkers.

    • LOL: Talha
  153. iffen says:
    @Dmitry

    Spain combines a very safe and liberal atmosphere – people smoking openly cannabis everywhere, brothels on many streets, and casinos in centers of larger cities.

    Fuck the Garden of Eden.

    • Disagree: AaronB
    • Replies: @Talha
    , @Dmitry
  154. iffen says:
    @German_reader

    (e.g. what if Israel ever gets completely dominated by the hardcore national religious?).

    The “real” JQ for today.

  155. iffen says:
    @German_reader

    many gullible Christians will probably fall for the kind of “our common Abrahamic roots” nonsense people like you are employing to advance their Islamic agenda.

    Are you commenting under the influence?

    • Replies: @German_reader
  156. iffen says:
    @AaronB

    I like to troll, AB, but you are tiresome.

    • Replies: @AaronB
  157. @iffen

    No, I don’t drink alcohol, and I stand by the content of my comments, even if you may criticize their tone. In America you’ve got many problems, but you can still afford to be somewhat naive about Islam, but the same isn’t true in Europe. Islamization is a real threat and the spread of Islamic influence has to be firmly countered. And that’s not even a strictly nationalist issue, if they weren’t so delusional, it would be a commonsense position even for liberals and left-wingers.

    • Replies: @iffen
  158. @German_reader

    I find Islam offensive, like a worse version of communism.
    Talha has also stated many times that he hopes for the Islamization of Europe (as is of course his duty as a devout Muslim) – or rather, that he is certain it will eventually happen. That attitude is the reason why there can at best be a truce with Muslims, genuine dialogue with mutual respect is impossible.

    I still think you are making a mountain out of a molehill. Of course a devout Muslim would want to see his faith spread far and wide. This is no reason for alarm.

    And even if you do find that idea frightening, there is the question of how open Christian and atheist Europeans truly are to the Muslim way of life. What I see around me here in Sweden is zero interest from ethnic Swedes in converting to Islam but a good few sons and daughters of Muslim parents taking on our atheist way of life, with drugs, booze and one-night stands. If anything, then, Talha is the one who should grieve, since it’s he who is losing his brothers in faith to atheism.

  159. AaronB says:
    @iffen

    Ignore button?

    • Replies: @iffen
  160. iffen says:
    @German_reader

    In America you’ve got many problems, but you can still afford to be somewhat naive about Islam, but the same isn’t true in Europe.

    I agree with this comment. I am not naive about Islam and if the comment mechanism allowed it we could go back and find the comment(s) where I told Talha that I thought Islam was not compatible with ‘Murica. I appreciate your concern about the Muslims in Germany and Europe. You might not recall, but it was you who informed me that the US likely pressured Germany into accepting the Turkish gastarbeiters. Talha is upfront and not duplicitous.

  161. Talha says:
    @Swedish Family

    We had a very down to earth talk last night at a dinner with our spiritual teacher. This is the upshot of what he told us (and he is in the trenches, helping and counseling many, many families with their problems):

    Muslims in the US are way too overconfident in thinking that people are simply leaving religion and the situation is just waiting for Islam to take over. We look at the Blue areas and think everyone is basically hedonistic but rarely keep track of what’s happening in Red fly-over country where Christians may not be practicing but have a strong sense of Christian identity. These are also heavily allied with Zionists and generally dislike Islam for one or other reason. We are losing plenty of our youth and are swimming against a very strong current. If Islam comes to the US it will be a long slog and may take many centuries.

    Just some insights…

    Also, I would certainly hope that Christians still care about converting the world over to their side, otherwise they have basically lost a lot of confidence and are in major defensive mode.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @Talha
    , @Swedish Family
  162. iffen says:
    @AaronB

    Ignore button?

    CTI does not work correctly and never has. Likely has some connection to the Unz genius stuff.

    I do not wish to ignore your comments. I just wanted to point out that IMO some are tiresome.

    • Replies: @AaronB
  163. Dmitry says:
    @German_reader

    Arabs are appearing as mixed population. Overall it’s dark or even partly black people, but with a lot of gradations, and even blondes.

    Spanish also mixed appearing, with part of the population being light, and part of it being dark, even going very dark – majority being somewhere in between the two colours.

    Between the two groups, a significant proportion of overlap, where they look the same (lighter proportion of Arabs the same – to my untrained eyes – as darker proportion of Spanish).

    For me, as a simple tourist travelling in Spain – I had some experience of not noticing the local Arabs, until hearing suddenly people speaking in Arabic.

    Also in Spain, there are a lot of Pakistani and African guys (obviously these even the tourist can notice).

  164. @Swedish Family

    This is no reason for alarm.

    Are all Swedes as painfully naive as you?

    I’ll summarize some of the positions Talha has taken in the past:

    - hopes for the Islamization of Europe and the US.
    - thinks the rollback of secularism in the Islamic world over the past few decades is just wonderful, and that people like the truly vile Erdogan are good champions of Islam.
    - would like laws barring Muslim women from marrying non-Muslims.
    - has openly stated that his ideal society is some kind of Islamic state where “blasphemy” will be punished (iirc he admitted the death penalty might be too harsh, and public flogging and exile for repeat offenders might suffice…I wonder though where blasphemers could be exiled to once Islam dominates the entire globe…maybe Antarctica?).
    His enthusiasm for the millet system of the Ottoman empire doesn’t inspire confidence either.
    - first reaction when he hears about something like the Rohingya issue in Burma isn’t a call for sanctions, UN investigation etc., but no, it’s a call for armed struggle in the support of his “brothers”.

    Talha isn’t a Westernized or semi-Westernized Muslim who believes a little bit in God, he is (and has admitted as much in the past) at least a soft Islamist who wants society structured along Islamic lines. We’ve seen in societies like Algeria or Turkey where this eventually leads to.
    I don’t intend to bully Talha away from here (his comments are quite educational after all…if one takes the trouble to read them closely), but I won’t refrain from stating that I find the agenda of people like him profoundly noxious.

    What I see around me here in Sweden is zero interest from ethnic Swedes in converting to Islam but a good few sons and daughters of Muslim parents taking on our atheist way of life, with drugs, booze and one-night stands.

    That certainly happens, but on the other hand you’ve also got the phenomenon that the 3rd or even 4th generation of Muslims in Europe is at least in part actually more religious than their parents and grandparents were. It’s not clear imo that secularization and Westernization will prevail.
    Regarding conversion to Islam, I agree, not likely to be a serious issue…but tell that to Talha, it’s him who always goes on about how Europeans will convert to Islam (because it’s Allah’s will or whatever).

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    , @iffen
    , @Swedish Family
  165. AaronB says:
    @iffen

    Ah, well, sorry my friend. I cannot help it. I simply can’t things seriously anymore. Its the result of all that Buddhist reading.

    The upshot of liberation is to no longer take anything seriously anymore. So simple – yet so profound. Few will understand. And that’s ok :)

    Once you understand only activities without purpose have meaning, you are free.

    Good luck.

  166. Talha says:
    @Talha

    He didn’t say much about Europe since he doesn’t know much about the situation there.

  167. AaronB says:
    @utu

    Utu, before this is over you will be a Hasid living in Boro Park, dancing on the Sabbath, a blissful grin on your face, your morbid gloom a distant memory.

    Don’t you know we become the thing we fight, utu?

    But that is an interesting book I shall have to look into it.

    • Replies: @utu
    , @Hyperborean
  168. @AquariusAnon

    Food: I can see Western SWPLs pick up on stuff like borscht, blini, and beef stroganoff. SWPLize these foods and mass export them to the West (and the East)

    To add to that. There is a very popular Pelmeni “chain” (they only have two stores so far) in Riga named Pelmeni XL (https://www.xlpelmeni.lv/) that I always thought would be a winner if introduced in other countries. There is also the slightly more upscale The Varenik chain in Ukraine, which more than holds its own against “proper” Ukrainian restaurants (the most central one in Kiev is at the food court on the top floor of the Gulliver mall). I also think proper pirozhki, straight from the oven, would be a surefire SWPL favorite. And some of the famous soups to go with those.

    Russian ballet is already famous worldwide. Instead of promoting just the military, Russia can promote that too for civilian consumption. This includes other high culture such as classical music and artists for bourgeois consumption (who are still very important to win the hearts and minds of, as they wield outsized power)

    Russia is already a superpower for all western Europeans who enjoy classical music, ballet and opera, so no real need for improvement there, I think.

    Literature: Authors like Tolstoy and Chekhov should have quite a few fans among bourgeois Europeans, at least not any less than other authors from the same era like Jane Austen which is known worldwide.

    Same here. Russian literature is probably the second-most read foreign literature in Sweden after English (French literature might have it beaten by a hair, but I doubt it).

    What is needed is modern Russian culture. For the typical idea among middle-class people, especially older ones, is that Russian culture is all museums and Dead White Males.

  169. Matra says:
    @AquariusAnon

    Russia still produces some very good music (especially in hip hop

    Come, sweet asteroid of death. Destroy this world. The sooner the better.

    • LOL: Daniel Chieh
  170. Dmitry says:
    @German_reader

    Talha is an Islamist, though.

    I don’t believe average people of Muslim background, are all having exactly the scary Islamist views like Talha.

    In real life, only people I have met from Muslim countries, even never said anything about Islam or religion.

    (And I’m not fan of Islamism at all, but in real life it’s not like people would know this).

    • Replies: @iffen
    , @iffen
  171. iffen says:
    @German_reader

    Talha isn’t a Westernized or semi-Westernized Muslim who believes a little bit in God,

    This is nutty, it doesn’t make sense.

  172. @Swedish Family

    True. At least people in Sweden can think of the museums like the Hermitage when thinking of Russia.

    But in the US? Its significantly worse. People just think of the country as a cold, dark, decaying Sovok dump where nothing works properly, with an aggressive military and oil as its only export. This is clearly not true.

    Food and entertainment should be Russia’s foot in the door to completely change that.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  173. iffen says:
    @Dmitry

    Concentrate, D., concentrate on a subject or area. You likely could come up with something that would help us all if you did that.

  174. utu says:
    @AaronB

    I do not fight Hasids. I want all Jews become Hasids. Rabbi Yakov Shapiro is my man.

    Check out The Wandering Jew by Wat I linked above.

  175. @Swedish Family

    You’re right. Piroshky Piroshky is one of the most popular eateries in Seattle, one of the world’s SWPLiest cities. This could be a hit if someone was to commercialize it right.

    • Replies: @utu
    , @Anonymous
  176. Dmitry says:
    @iffen

    Spain is closer to paradise than most countries. Cheaper beer and (I’m pretty sure) more cheap cannabis, than anywhere in Western Europe.

    But then, there is real generational warfare, where older people are dominating the jobs with good salaries, and fewer and fewer opportunities for young people (regardless whether they are even engineers and scientists), who are many of them leaving the country.

    Also a lot of young people, looks like they are still in 1980s, or early 1990s. Even a lot of young people dressing and acting like they are early 1990s fans of Nirvana .

    This man (who sells Russian beer), was telling us he emigrated to Spain (Basque country) 20 years ago, exactly because he is a fan of their 1980s punk music. Not sure how this story was possible – but it’s apparently in North Spain a world center of 1980s punk music.

  177. utu says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    Paul’s Pel’meni. in Madison, WI

  178. Yevardian says:
    @Mitleser

    What the hell is this? And yes, Talha and all his ilk should be deported. His ‘civilised’ tone is so much more irritating than honest Islamists.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    , @iffen
  179. iffen says:
    @Dmitry

    I don’t believe average people of Muslim background, are all having exactly the scary Islamist views like Talha.

    If this was true there likely would not be an Islam problem for the West.

    “scary”

    Really.

  180. Dmitry says:
    @Yevardian

    Even for the French-speaking Africans, Putin is considered cooler than Macron.

  181. iffen says:
    @Yevardian

    Who the F are you? Why don’t we deport you instead?

    I don’t know why I get diverted into defending Jews and Muslims.

  182. @AaronB

    Leave the women I’ve known out of your deranged rambles. My wife would almost certainly not be alive today if she hadn’t met me, and she’s suffered quite enough, thanks.

  183. @German_reader

    It is my impression that Middle Easterners have very varied skin tones, from swarthy dark brown to normal European white.

    Some of the white ones can pass as European, but the facial structure tends to be rather Middle Eastern.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  184. @AaronB

    Don’t you know we become the thing we fight

    So why are you fighting us?

  185. I think Talha is a relatively civilised person, much nicer than the degenerate ghetto thugs I am used to.

    Even his Islamist promotion, while at times too much, is relatively tolerable.

    However, it is clear that he either doesn’t comprehend Christianity beyond a superficial level, or he is adopting a certain philosophical viewpoint because he knows it doesn’t threaten his cause.

    In the end it doesn’t really matter, the world-denying semites need to either be eviscerated or expelled from our lands.

    • Replies: @German_reader
  186. @Hyperborean

    the world-denying semites

    How is Islam “world-denying”? When I think of “world-denying” people, I think of Christian monks who have given up all their worldly possessions and live secluded in their monastery…if anything, Christianity is the most “world-denying” of the monotheistic religions imo.
    The problem with Muslims is rather that they’re obsessed with power, control and domination. They also allow some really decadent (not just from a Christian, but even from a Greco-Roman perspective) cultural practices like polygamy. It would be better if they were a bit more world-denying imo.

    • Replies: @S3
  187. @Swedish Family

    Swedes may have zero interest in Islam, but rest assured Islam is interested in you. What is going to happen, or rather what has already happened is that Islam creates parallel societies that are in open conflict with non-Muslim ones and even “bad” Muslim (anyone outside Sunni orthodoxy). Given sufficient concentration, Muslims are going to organically organize into political agitation groups (small numbers) or sectarian mobs (large numbers) because the freedom of religion in Western societies essentially functions as unilateral religious disarmament. Considering the pure levels of aggression exercised by the African and Middle Eastern ethnies that have embraced Islam, it doesn’t take particularly large numbers to get trouble

    The early Modern anti-liberals had a clear idea of the problems with the Jews and this applies doubly so to the Muslims.

    The Christian state knows only privileges. In this state, the Jew has the privilege of being a Jew. As a Jew, he has rights which the Christians do not have. Why should he want rights which he does not have, but which the Christians enjoy?

    In wanting to be emancipated from the Christian state, the Jew is demanding that the Christian state should give up its religious prejudice. Does he, the Jew, give up his religious prejudice? Has he, then, the right to demand that someone else should renounce his religion?

    Simply replace all instances of Christian with Secular and Jews with Muslims and you get to the heart of the problem. The Muslims take strategic and opportunistic advantage of the secular nature of Western states to advance his tribals interests, but he in no way surrenders his own religious prejudices, but even goes so far as to double down on them. The simpel truth that Western liberals are unwilling to acknowledge is that the majority of Muslims often secretly and but more usually openly hold non Muslims in contempt. You are Kuffar, and the the more you abase yourself to accomodate your societies to account for their social mores, they more they will despise you for your weakness and the more they will demand.

    • Replies: @Talha
    , @gmachine1729
  188. Talha says:
    @Duke of Qin

    This is basically an explication of Popper’s Paradox…with some embellishments. The issues are – as you pointed out – systemic, perhaps the underlying reason why the response to things seems to be bipolar. Still never figured out why the Europeans never really figured out an effective dhimmi/millet system. The approach seems to be all or nothing. Minus the Hapsburgs, they actually started one off but it didn’t last long for obvious reasons. Actually, Russia also gets credit for a reasonable system of negotiated powers since Empress Catherine (minus the obvious years).

    Peace.

  189. Anonymous[392] • Disclaimer says:
    @AquariusAnon

    Is Russian food really that good to be exported world wide? I don’t see it besides the random fashionable restaurant here or there.

    It is too bland for widespread acceptance I think.

    What about Russian vodka. Is it significantly better than Grey Goose and the like?

  190. Anonymous[392] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    I don’t see a bakery getting widespread acceptance as it goes against too many SWPL trends such as having gluten and having carbs.

    Russian food seems best suited for really cold places as a comfort food, not something SWPL can get behind.

  191. Mr. Karlin – think you’d like this:

    Amusingly, a Russian youtube channel(Istorium.TV) apparently wanted to translate this for a Russian audience.

  192. DB Cooper says:
    @Anonymous

    “Is Russian food really that good to be exported world wide?”

    Russian food is actually quite popular in Hong Kong, at least a version of it that is. In Hong Kong there is a style of restaurants called ‘Soy Sauce Western’ restaurants that serves Western food catered to local taste. Basically it is Panda Express in reverse. And it almost always contains a choice of soup between Russian Borscht or cream corn soup.

    https://zolimacitymag.com/why-do-hong-kong-restaurants-serve-borscht-the-overlooked-history-of-russian-hong-kong/

  193. @Anonymous

    Pickled foods aren’t bland, though. And from an SWPL standpoint, they are probiotic friendly so they would technically be “healthy.” Belvedere Vodka is the best, IMO.

  194. Talha says:

    My, my – this has basically become an open thread…on Talha!

    Let’s see…to commence…

    Talha is an Islamist, though.

    I most certainly am not. I am an Orthodox Sunni (Sufi) Muslim and I have plenty of issues with the Islamist methodology (like those of the Brotherhood). A few important ones being; 1) their melding of the nation-state model with the Shariah (which is quite scary) and 2) putting the cart before the horse – the best approach is to reform the hearts and minds of the people, the rules for society will naturally follow and change on their own instead of forcing Shariah down the throats of a population that simply doesn’t appreciate it..

    - hopes for the Islamization of

    …the world actually. Salvation is open to all, West and East.

    - thinks the rollback of secularism in the Islamic world over the past few decades is just wonderful

    Agreed.

    that people like the truly vile Erdogan are good champions of Islam.

    Nope, never been an Erdogan fanboi – he’s a mixed bag, like most politicians.

    - would like laws barring Muslim women from marrying non-Muslims.

    So would Thor.

    where “blasphemy” will be punished

    I empathize with Western atheists on this; the struggle to have “muh blasphemy” recognized as a human right was a hard fought battle.

    public flogging and exile for repeat offenders might suffice

    Yeah, some public don’t get the initial message from fines and jail time. Again, I totally get why this is a huge deal for some people – the loss of the right to piss on a cross or use a Qur’an as toilet paper is likely going to cause a rise in the suicide rate.

    His enthusiasm for the millet system

    Big time, much better model for accommodating the mutual sharing of space by peoples with rival or conflicting world views.

    Rohingya issue

    The UN had already let everyone know what was going on. I didn’t ask for any international laws to be violated. I simply don’t see the need to be apologetic about Muslim volunteers setting up a safety cordon and putting the fear of God into armed soldiers that are driving out pencil-thin, dirt-poor villagers and burning down their homes. I certainly wouldn’t have minded if a few thousand Christian volunteers from the West would have come into Iraq to help deal with Daesh and keep them from going postal on local Christians – why didn’t they?

    I don’t intend to bully Talha away from here

    Don’t worry none – usually you are less personal. I’ve had to deal with far worse. Par for the course really on a forum with Alt-Right, White Nationalist (and even Hitler fanbois) voices. I don’t expect this to be friendly to a Muslim. Part of the reason I came here is to see what beefs people have with Islam so that I have a better understanding and can prepare my children. If either Mr. Karlin or Mr. Unz ask me to leave, I will without fuss.

    it’s him who always goes on about how Europeans will convert to Islam

    If one is to take Islamic foundational texts seriously, it is simply part of belief that mankind will eventually enter the fold of Islam; it can take 50, 500 or 50,000 years – but that’s just how this train rolls…despite the best efforts of Muslims to screw it up.

    Talha and all his ilk should be deported.

    Totally fine, in fact I have done people the service of outlining a specific game plan as to how to exactly get this done in the US. Shouting over the internet is not one of the steps. If my fellow citizens decide to change the laws to deport me, hey – that’s how a democracy works.

    he is adopting a certain philosophical viewpoint because he knows it doesn’t threaten his cause.

    Actually one should read at least the introduction of the book by Prof. Robert P. George (a Catholic legal theorist and philosopher) – a preview of the introduction is available at Amazon, the man argues from within the Catholic natural-law framework:

    https://www.amazon.com/Making-Men-Moral-Liberties-Paperbacks/dp/0198260245

    His ‘civilised’ tone is so much more irritating

    I suppose it would make people feel more comfortable about their presumptions if I threw a few F-bombs here and there. Also, I really think people ought to look into this “IGNORE COMMENTER” thing, Mr. Unz did us all a favor by building it.

    “scary” – Really.

    LOL! Yeah, I mean advocating semi-autonomous regions for non-Muslims to govern their own jurisdictions and a parallel judicial system so Muslims don’t step on their toes and vice-versa sounds like I’m just waiting to eat their children.

    Look guys, there is no secret plan, there is no “Protocols of the Elders of Makkah” going on here. There are two main issues at work:
    1) The current Western political framework has multiple systemic issues that make society vulnerable to take over – right now the take over is being attempted by the poz.
    2) Based on the advice of my teachers, the secret in this day and age is that there is no struggle against Muslims, or Christians or atheists or anybody else really. The current struggle is against oneself. This age has made it easy for anyone to completely distract or lose themselves in anything they want, any dysfunctional lifestyle you want to get into – you are welcome to do it and it is easily accessible. The great human culling is at hand; the ones that simply do what human beings have been naturally doing for centuries will be the ones left standing, because everyone else was too busy prioritizing the wrong things in life and thus forfeit, not because they had some super secret plan to take over society. It’s actually not that complicated, but this age has made it so.

    I had a nice exchange with Thor on the other thread; he agreed with me about how men should be approaching women for marriage, but he simply doesn’t know what to do to change what he is used to doing and doesn’t know how to turn it around in the next generation.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
  195. Nznz says: • Website

    Does White Nationalism better chance if it gives up being entirely based on rationality and instead becomes a quasi religion instead, being based on worship of purity of the blood and white person hood? Maybe the reason why neoliberalism is so successful is that it basically acts as a quasi religion in some aspects.

  196. Talha says:
    @Nznz

    purity of the blood and white person hood?

    So…Judaism for Gentiles…correct?

    neoliberalism is so successful is that it basically acts as a quasi religion in some aspe

    Bingo!!!

    Peace.

  197. @Anonymous

    SWPLs (or the people who make to them) have made a religion out of SANDWICHES. Not an issue.

  198. @Anonymous

    Sovok food is bland (or Georgian). Russian food is highly varied and sophisticated.

    The Scandinavians have made a Michelin-certified haute cuisine out of kelp and meatballs for crying out loud.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    , @AquariusAnon
  199. @Anonymous

    Huh? Everyone loves bakeries.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  200. Anonymous[392] • Disclaimer says:
    @Ali Choudhury

    Not in the west where people freak out about gluten and are to worried about what a carb will do to their keto diet.

    Bakeries are considered prole even though it is hand made and artisinal.

    To the liberal elite anything that can make you fat outweighs any other quality.

  201. Anonymous[392] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    French food and Japanese food is highly varied and sophisticated. You could say the same about many other cuisines such as Vietnamese and Thai food. I’ve never heard anyone say that about Russian cuisine, but I don’t know anything about it since I have only ever had Borcht.

    If Russian food is so good, why doesn’t Russia have any Michelin starred restaurants?

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
    , @Thorfinnsson
  202. @Talha

    Actually one should read at least the introduction of the book by Prof. Robert P. George (a Catholic legal theorist and philosopher) – a preview of the introduction is available at Amazon, the man argues from within the Catholic natural-law framework:

    Why? Aside from this vague snippet: George closes with a sketch of a “pluralistic perfectionist” theory of civil liberties and public morality, showing that it is fully compatible with a defense of morals legislation. I don’t see how this is relevant.

    My point was that your viewpoint about how Catholics and other Christians should just ‘trust their own doctrine’ is unrealistic and you have the luxury of adopting this position because ultimately it has no effect on you.

    We have already had this debate in Europe over the 19th century and whatever future Christians may or may not have with nationalists in power, they have no future with Liberal Decompositionists, and submitting to Saracens is a fool’s game.

    And really, many priests are now merely zampolits with less power, many of whom are not even sure whether God exists!

    But this is not the case, according to a poll of Anglican clergy which found that as many as 16 per cent are unclear about God and two per cent think it is no more than a human construct.

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/survey-finds-2-of-anglican-priests-are-not-believers-9821899.html

    Siding with their enemies and denouncing nationalists today like they denounced Maurras is futile and won’t end well.

    You seem like a decent man and remind me of the old well-dressed and well-mannered Turkish or Kurdish couples I used to sometimes see where I lived, but talking to you there are times like this when I notice how alien your mindset is.

    • Replies: @Talha
  203. @Nznz

    Does White Nationalism better chance if it gives up being entirely based on rationality and instead becomes a quasi religion instead, being based on worship of purity of the blood and white person hood?

    What do you think? I used to hate that ‘think for yourself’ slogan, but I kind of understand it now.

    If you think HBDism’s dependency on rationality makes it hard to appeal to people*, why don’t you read some more traditional folkish writers?

    *If this is your argument, then I would actually agree with you to a point, reading HBD tracts that try to create a sense of nationalism around high IQ or certain genes can be a bit dull, like reading Libertarian or Objectivist tracts. Duginism is a dead-end but I can understand why certain people would be attracted to it.

    • Replies: @Nznz
  204. LondonBob says:
    @German_reader

    Give unto Caesar of course means give nothing, something that would have been clear to Jesus’s audience who knew everything belonged to God. It was a trick question by the Pharisees (Rabbis), hoping to get Jesus to explicitly denounce the Roman authorities and get arrested. Very clever answer.

    • Replies: @DFH
    , @German_reader
  205. LondonBob says:
    @Dmitry

    With their new leftist government I expect the African population to start shooting up for Spain, in addition to their Mestizo population. I was surprised to see the beginnings of a subcontinent population last time I was in Barcelona. Doesn’t matter if they are followers of Catholicism, Islam, animist, voodoo or Hindu, effect is the same.

    • Replies: @Ali Choudhury
  206. LondonBob says:
    @Dmitry

    A friend of a friend went to Israel ten years ago and was questioned at the border control about not having done national service, he hasn’t been back since.

  207. LondonBob says:
    @German_reader

    It is supposed to be an offence to serve in a foreign military, this is not applied to the IDF.

  208. LondonBob says:
    @Mitleser

    Macron is such a creepy weirdo.

  209. @Anonymous

    If Russian food is so good, why doesn’t Russia have any Michelin starred restaurants?

    Communism can ruin any national cuisine.

  210. @Anonymous

    I disagree, SWPLs love bakeries especially if they sell good coffee. Sliced white bread is seen as being for mouth-breathing proles hence the rage for sourdough bread.

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
  211. @LondonBob

    South Asians, particularly Gujrati Pakistanis, have been in Barcelona for decades.

    https://www.dawn.com/news/1376378

  212. neutral says:
    @Nznz

    Maybe the reason why neoliberalism is so successful

    It happened because of a some freak historical occurrences in history. White people (mostly Aryans) found a continent that they took from the natives relatively easy, it also happened to be rich in resources, they started to delude themselves that their constitution is was produced their magical dirt that made them powerful (when it was race and natural resources). This magic dirt ideology was used by the jews to seize power, they then caused Europe to be engulfed by two big wars that made them all powerful.

    Eventually having an inferior people as your majority population will come to a reckoning, neoliberalism will end.

    • Replies: @utu
    , @DFH
  213. utu says:
    @Anonymous

    On popular level Russian food only may lack refinement in presentation. But this will improve. For me the presentation is secondary. While I appreciate Japanese esthetics this is not the essence of food. Both nouvelle cuisine and fusion cuisine were influence by Japanese esthetics. But if you look how French dishes were prepared and presented in 19 and 20 century there was no difference from upper class Russian presentation. All European cuisines of upper classes was deeply influenced by French cuisine. Italians may object but only because their pride makes them irrational. Italian ciabatta was invented in 1982 to respond to the popularity of French baguette in Italy. But it is also true that Italian cooking influenced the French. The story goes that the turning point for the French high class cooking was when Catherine de’ Medici married King Henry II of France.

    I do not know Russian food as much as I wish I did but all my experiences were very good and there was nothing that I did not like.

    Russian cuisine can stand on its own just like German, Polish, Hungarian and Scandinavian cuisines can. But turning it to something popular for the plebeian masses that you seem to represent is another story. What are the virtues of hamburgers and hot dogs from fast foods? What suppose to computer with them? Blini and caviar? Could you and your masses handle it?

    Most important part is that Russians will keep eating Russian foods and be proud of it while refining it and incorporating foreign influences but not mindlessly and be more reluctant to fall for novelties from broad.

    This evolutionary process. We develop new habits and tastes. Unfortunately there is also a Gresham’s law that bad money drives out good money. It would be good if American fast foods like Subways, Taco Bell, and McDonald that produce extremely crappy foods were somehow eliminated and replaced with more wholesome food.

  214. Nznz says: • Website
    @Hyperborean

    I mean popular movements dependent on some sort of charisma and emotional Zeitgeist, which x-zxy=w*z does not really provide.

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
  215. @Ali Choudhury

    Sliced white bread is seen as being for mouth-breathing proles hence the rage for sourdough bread.

    Do they buy the sourdough bread or make it themselves? Because I have never figured out how to make sourdough bread leaven properly in practice.

    • Replies: @Ali Choudhury
    , @JL
  216. @Nznz

    I mean popular movements dependent on some sort of charisma and emotional Zeitgeist, which x-zxy=w*z does not really provide.

    If you know the answer, why are you asking?

  217. @Hyperborean

    The more extreme SWPLs will bake their own.

  218. utu says:
    @neutral

    Neoliberalism is global financial capitalism. The SJW is a minor part of it which is there to distract so nobody looks at the transfer of wealth and erosion of liberties.

    • Replies: @neutral
  219. neutral says:
    @utu

    Global financial capitalism needs an enforcer, its not just a system that organically because that is what people wanted (of course the likes of (((Ayn Rand))) would want people to believe that). The USA has at times brutally enforced this system, the USA cannot enforce this ideology because the inferior races will have degraded its capability to do so, which will thus be the end of neoliberalism.

    • Replies: @utu
  220. utu says:
    @neutral

    I really do not know how to answer. But I think Fuck You will cover all angles.

  221. AP says:
    @Anonymous

    Is Russian food really that good to be exported world wide? I don’t see it besides the random fashionable restaurant here or there.

    I’ve noticed that Puerto Ricans and Cubans love olivye but Westerners won’t touch it. I can’t stand it either.

    Otherwise it would seem to be good comfort food. A problem may be that the type of Westerner who likes exotic food equates exotic with spicy, and Russian food isn’t spicy at all.

  222. JL says:
    @Hyperborean

    I was recently initiated into the sourdough baking process by a very SWPL friend of mine and, as of yet, have not had any leavening problems. I believe it comes down to starter quality, condition and maintenance. I have had issues with starter maintenance, but don’t bake anything until they’re sorted out.

  223. DFH says:
    @LondonBob

    Give unto Caesar of course means give nothing

    No it doesn’t, the Romans did collect taxes from Judaea.

    • Replies: @LondonBob
  224. DFH says:
    @neutral

    (when it was race and natural resources).

    That must be why Russia is equally as rich as America!

  225. @Nznz

    Does White Nationalism better chance if it gives up being entirely based on rationality and instead becomes a quasi religion

    Of course, in some ways Nazism tried to reproduce the structure of traditional religions (e.g. Hitler as a redeemer figure for the German nation, the sacred martyrs of the cause like Horst Wessel), at least in part it was a religion for people who couldn’t believe in the old religion anymore. But it’s not exactly an encouraging precedent.

  226. @LondonBob

    DFH has already explained that it did mean Jesus’ followers should pay taxes to the Roman authorities.
    And Paul’s writings of course admonished the faithful to obedience towards the Roman authorities, most famously in Romans 13 (” For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.”).

  227. AP says:
    @German_reader

    I find Islam offensive, like a worse version of communism.

    While Islam indeed has much in common with Communism (aggressive invasion, destruction and forced uniformity of beautiful pre-Islamic/pre-Commie traditions, slavery, etc.) it seems to have been a 7th century Puritanistic rather than Revolutionary phenomenon.

    • Replies: @German_reader
  228. @Anonymous

    How many people are on a keto diet? I doubt it’s 1% of the population.

  229. @AP

    I’m not sure if Islam is “puritanistic”…what does that mean? Is it a reference to their rejection of images, depictions of humans etc.? Traditional Islamic sexual morals certainly don’t seem “puritanistic” to me, but rather decadent (polygamy, sex with slaves being allowed, also the weird stuff about dozens of virgins in paradise for the believer).
    But you’re of course right, that it isn’t exactly comparable with communism.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  230. Dmitry says:
    @Hyperborean

    But significant proportion Spanish people, higher proportion in Southern Spain, are actually looking Middle Eastern.

    It’s when you cross the border into France, where you have a clear majority of white people around you.

    This highly analogous with the Caucasuses.

    Armenian and Azerbaijani people are almost as dark as Moroccans and Algerians (of course Azerbaijan is far more civilized than any Arab country). But in Georgia, you have already a mix of dark and light people – which is similar ratio to Southern Spain.

    Maybe one day, Georgia will also reach the social and civilizational level of Spain (perhaps in the late 21st century).

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
    , @Daniel Chieh
  231. @Anonymous

    Vodka is a colorless, flavorless grain neutral spirit by definition. The only question is whether or not it is sufficiently pure not to be obscured by off notes (which will obscure your brain the next day). Generally speaking all vodka that has been distilled thrice or more is identical. Some new research shows that there are apparently subtle differences in molecular structure between different vodkas, but no doubt it takes a super taster to notice such tiny distinctions.

    Grey Goose, incidentally, is a great exemplar of this phenomenon–a true triumph of marketing.

    It was invented by Sidney Frank, an American Jew who was inspired by the success of Absolut, which at that time was the most expensive vodka generally available. Frank’s idea was to charge a price 50% higher than Absolut, produce the vodka in France (a country which had never in its history previously produced vodka), and give it a fancy name (he decided on combining a color with a bird).

    Frank found some cognac distillers with idle capacity in the off season and with his wife’s help settled on Grey Goose. Even “Grey” was deliberate as that is a British spelling and is incorrect in America. The rest is history.

    In other words if you purchase Grey Goose you are a total fool. Reportedly Frank was toying with the idea of a super premium rum product to be named “White Pelican” when he died. I recommend purchasing reasonably priced vodka that advertises itself as quintuple distilled. Tito’s and Stolichnaya both fit the bill.

    • Agree: Tyrion 2
    • Replies: @neutral
    , @AP
  232. neutral says:
    @Thorfinnsson

    This reminds of what somebody once told me. She had some guests over, a lot of them were the snob self declared gourmet type, she put a cheap whiskey into an expensive bottle and the guests ended up praising what a great whiskey it was.

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
  233. @Anonymous

    LCHF diets peaked in popularity in the late 1990s. There have been small revivals thanks to the “paleo” movement (Mark Sisson, John Durant, Christ Masterjohn) and lately the success of Nina Teicholz and Ivor Cummins.

    SWPLs do not consider baking or grains to be prole. Instead they have introduced status gradations with concepts such as gluten-free, sprouted grains, ancestral grains, quasi-grains (e.g. quinoa), etc.

    The general momentum is currently against LCHF diets owing to the pernicious influence of vegans who are now promoting so-called “plant-based” diets (ignoring that Americans already get three-fifths of their calories from plants and the global figure is four-fifths). False research is also trotted out to make livestock rearing seem more environmentally damaging than it really is.

    • Agree: Anatoly Karlin
  234. @neutral

    President Nixon did this as well, even at state dinners.

    Research has shown that knowledge that a product is expensive improves perception of the product.

  235. @Anonymous

    The Michelin Guide is geographically biased (transparently so–it’s not some insiduous plot). Many places simply aren’t covered by it, or are covered in limited detail (e.g. they only do four cities in all of North America).

    I am sure that Moscow and St. Petersburg have many world-class restaurants, though perhaps the cuisine isn’t Russian.

    But I bet places like Vladivostok, Chelyabinsk, etc. don’t have a single restaurant that’s actually good. Lyons on the other had, which is not very large, has more like fifty.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    , @Anatoly Karlin
  236. Dmitry says:
    @German_reader

    Islamist view, a little more similar to fascism than communism, when applied in 20th century?

    Early communism, although still led by terrorists, but at least with a few semi-civilized things about it (encouraged certain artistic movement in the early years, before Stalin’s attacks on “formalism”), and was designed (before Stalin) to attract intelligent people, being derived from the Hegelian philosophical traditional.

    One of the most unpleasant things about Islamism – anti-modern, anti-intellectual, and social conservatism, along with the desire for conquest that characterized the epoch, and the tribal warfare in Saudi Arabia, in which area this ideology was created.

    This ideology also designed for a low intelligence population, and therefore it is not surprising there is now this lowest common denominator crossover with the stupidest Western criticisms of modernity.

  237. But I bet places like Vladivostok, Chelyabinsk, etc. don’t have a single restaurant that’s actually good. Lyons on the other had, which is not very large, has more like fifty.

    I doubt this will ever change. Russians consider eating in restaurants cuckish and gay. Maybe good for wooing a woman, but being a ‘foodie’ and actually not cooking your own food is a big no-no.

    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
    , @DFH
  238. Dmitry says:
    @Thorfinnsson

    In Chelyabinsk, there are many restaurants – including even expensive restaurants, and sushi restaurants.

    But the chef in the sushi restaurant will not be real Japanese people, but perhaps they find some other kind of orientals to create the atmosphere.

    However, this is not different even in France and Los Angeles. In a mediocre Italian restaurant in Beverly Hills, of Los Angeles – all staff there, visibly Mexicans, not Italians. Similarly, in France – obvious Chinese people serving “Japanese style” noodles. And in Japan itself, the “Italian restaurant”, staffed with Japanese people.

  239. AP says:
    @Thorfinnsson

    Generally speaking all vodka that has been distilled thrice or more is identical.

    It seems, however, that some vodka is smoother than others. People have noticed the difference, without being aware of brand, when I’ve served good Russian vodkas (such as Russian Standard a few years ago) at parties.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    , @reiner Tor
    , @utu
  240. Zero Hedge shared an article (could be a stupid article) which says that the recent American sanctions are most aimed at the Russian civilian airliner industry, to eliminate an increasingly dangerous competitor.

    https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-09-30/its-economy-stupid-what-really-drives-us-sanctions-against-russia

    I don’t know if it could even be true or not, but it’d be at least some Russotriumph if it was true.

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
  241. Talha says:
    @Hyperborean

    Catholics and other Christians should just ‘trust their own doctrine’ is unrealistic

    Well, that’s really up to the Church – and I wasn’t really speaking about other Christians because they don’t have as intact a tradition as the Church (or the Orthodox).

    It seems your big beef with the Church is support fro immigration. Well, I simply don’t see why the Church cannot borrow from its own pre-Vatican 2 positions on things like Islam, Judaism and a bunch of other issues. They can oppose Muslim immigration on religious grounds and that will naturally converge with ethno-nationalist interests. I don’t see why (going back to my original point) they have to compromise any more with Caesar and think about splitting ecclesiastical authority when Caesar has already taken plenty of pounds of flesh.

    They may have concerns about what ethno-nationalism will lead to. European history is still pretty fresh in living memory up to and including things like the breaking apart of Yugoslavia, the current situation in Donbass and even concerns about, say, what would happen to Polish immigrants in Britain. So I simply don’t see why the Church can’t oppose immigration on its own terms in view of its own interests.

    Again, it’s their call – not my religion.

    I notice how alien your mindset is

    Indeed, this is not a problem. The (post)modern world is quite puzzled about what to do about Islam and that’s fine. The implications of things like the Singularity, transhumanism and other things seems fairly alien to me (and I suspect to even many Westerners of a few decades back). Either the rest of the world is going insane or we are.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
  242. @Dmitry

    But significant proportion Spanish people, higher proportion in Southern Spain, are actually looking Middle Eastern.

    It’s when you cross the border into France, where you have a clear majority of white people around you.

    Their facial features also, not just the akin tone?

    On a related note, it was nice when I visited Italy and Greece and not a single person assumed I was an Arab (at least to my face), even though it was really sunny and I got very tanned.

    (They did that in Egypt, very annoying)

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  243. Dmitry says:
    @AP

    There’s some significant differences in flavours between different brands.

    If you can buy “zelenaya marka” where you live – this is not expensive, and still tastes ok (not unpleasant).

  244. @Thorfinnsson

    This was true a decade ago but I don’t think it’s true now.

    Probably the single best restaurant I’ve been to was Russian themed (menu designed by a celebrity chef who’s gained fame by recreating prerevolutionary cuisine) and located in Veliky Novgorod, a rather depressed post industrial town of 300,000.

  245. @anonymous coward

    Why do you insist on being so consistently wrong on just about everything?

    • LOL: Daniel Chieh
    • Replies: @anonymous coward
  246. @AP

    Pálinka, the hungarian national fruit brandy, is something which was destroyed by the communists. I never liked it, because both the factory produced and the homemade versions were always horrible poisons, the former containing artificial flavors and chemicals, the latter too much alcohol (over 50%) and improperly made (thus often contained methyl-alcohol etc.), and both were difficult to drink.

    Recently I started enjoying it, as now Hungary produces quality pálinka, and I like them a lot. But I still don’t know much the names of the distilleries, and I don’t know which ones are the best, but I know that for example the Agárdi distillery is very good from personal experience. But maybe it’s not among the best? I’d need to search and read articles or reviews, and frankly I’m not that interested.

    So I guess these newer pálinkas are truly good, because I like them without any prestige or snobbery factor. It was a low prestige type of drink previously, so these new ones are probably objectively good.

  247. @reiner Tor

    Sure would be nice if Washington’s “elites” had discovered that other countries can form competitive industries decades ago. There might still be a machine tool industry in New England and an electronics industry in Chicago.

    Could’ve strangled Sony, Airbus, Toyota, Samsung, etc. in the cradle.

    After decades of trading commercial marketshare for “security” objectives, now it seems the Trump administration is using “‘security” excuses to preserve commercial marketshare.

    This isn’t limited to Russia either as evidenced by attacks on ZTE and even German companies.

  248. Dmitry says:
    @Hyperborean

    There is visual overlap (at least in my untrained eyes ) of proportion of the population.

    There are Arabs, you could swap with Spanish, and vice versa. I don’t think even local people would know for all, if they had been acculturated.

    —-

    E.g. a proportion of Arabs below you could just swap into Spain, and (as tourists) would be difficult to notice. And vice-versa. If you put the darker Spanish people into Lebanon, they could go “undercover” quite easily.

  249. Another late cycle indicator.

    Still, the 2/10 has not yet inverted.

    Bull market could well continue for another two years for all we know.

    Tesla is back up over $300 this morning on news that Musk reached a highly favorable settlement with the SEC ($20m, step down as chairman for three years). DoJ investigation reportedly continues.

    Here’s Charley Grant on the matter: https://twitter.com/CGrantWSJ/status/1046519527658401792

    • Replies: @Ali Choudhury
  250. DFH says:
    @anonymous coward

    >2018
    >taking women to restaurants

  251. @Dmitry

    Is the Madrid subway still without air conditioning?

    My memory of Madrid is negative: overwhelmingly influenced by the crowding of the subway, the summer heat which was barely dissipated by the mechanical fans, the smell of sweat and grime from crush of bodies and my brother’s wallet being stolen at a crossing.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    , @DFH
  252. @Talha

    It seems your big beef with the Church is support fro immigration. Well, I simply don’t see why the Church cannot borrow from its own pre-Vatican 2 positions on things like Islam, Judaism and a bunch of other issues. They can oppose Muslim immigration on religious grounds and that will naturally converge with ethno-nationalist interests. I don’t see why (going back to my original point) they have to compromise any more with Caesar and think about splitting ecclesiastical authority when Caesar has already taken plenty of pounds of flesh.

    The problem is that we need a way to make it harder for liberal infiltrators to come crawling in and a way to depose them when they inevitably do (this actually goes beyond nationalism and covers a lot of the Roman Catholic Church’s faults).

    It need not take the form of a formal split, either gallicanism or internal reforms to the church structure might work, but something needs to be done.

    They need not even support us, they simply need to stop supporting our (and their) enemies.

  253. Dmitry says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    I thought subway train is very good and efficient in Madrid. I’m not such a fan of the atmosphere in Madrid, but culturally the best art galleries – unlike Barcelona – and not destroyed by tourists yet – unlike Barcelona.

    We take the bus afterwards, from Madrid to Seville (this was a lot of hours) – and that is a truly nice city.

  254. LondonBob says:
    @DFH

    Sure they did but they also resisted doing so, and resisting was the righteous position. Everything is God’s, nothing is Caesar’s. Of course for the Romans everything was under Caesar so to prosecute Jesus would be to undermine their own philosophy.

    This last remark was another penal offence under the Law and the Pharisees began to gather for the kill. They prepared the famous trick questions: “Then went the Pharisees and took counsel how they might entangle him in his talk”. The two chief questions were, “To whom shall we render tribute?” and “Who then is my neighbour?” A wrong answer to the first would deliver him to punishment by the foreign ruler, Rome. A wrong answer to the second would enable the Pharisees to denounce him to the foreign ruler as an offender against their own Law, and to demand his punishment.

    This is the method earlier pictured by Jeremiah and still in use today, in the Twentieth Century. All who have had to do with public debate in our time, know the trick question, carefully prepared beforehand, and the difficulty of answering it on the spur of the moment. Various methods of eluding the trap are known to professional debaters (for instance, to say “No comment”, or to reply with another question). To give a complete answer, instead of resorting to such evasions, and in so doing to avoid the trap of incrimination and yet maintain the principle at stake is one of the most difficult things known to man. It demands the highest qualities of quickwittedness, presence of mind and clarity of thought. The answers given by Jesus to these two questions remain for all time the models, which mortal man can only hope to emulate.

    “Tell us therefore, What thinkest thou? Is it lawful to give tribute unto Caesar, or not?” (the affable tone of honest enquiry can be heard). “But Jesus perceived their wickedness and said, Why tempt ye me, ye hypocrites? … Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar’s; and unto God the things that are God’s. When they heard these words, they marvelled, and left him and went their way”.

    http://antimatrix.org/Convert/Books/Douglas.Reed/The.Controversy.of.Zion/10.The.Man.from.Galilee.htm

    • Replies: @DFH
  255. utu says:
    @AP

    If vodka is cold enough there is no way to tell the difference. The smoothness you can test when vodka is just slightly below the room temperature. There is a theory that one Russian physicist kind of convince me of is that the smoothness is defined by the surface tension. Vodka is more smooth if the surface tension is higher. Impurities may increase the surface tension. If you make a vodka from a pure laboratory alcohol mixed with a distilled water it has the lowest surface tensions and that’s why it will be much harsher than an impure moonshine that was distilled only once in a crappy still. This is because moonshine has some residual methanol and some esters that increase the surface tensions. So presumable little bit of methanol is good. Not for your eyesight but for smoothness. Why surface tension is important? Because evaporation rate is lower with high surface tension and it is the vapors that give you the sense of harshness. You do not want those free floating alcohol molecules touching your tastebuds and getting to your nose. That’s why cold freezing vodka which has high viscosity and high surface tension evaporates less and thus is smooth. Avoid vodkas avoid that claim being distilled multiple times.

    Think about why whisky or Cognac are smooth? Because of impurities. They are not distilled to the maximums and then they sit in oak casks from which they get all kinds of chemicals. Yes, the chemicals may give you headaches which you do not get from good vodka and bad hangover but drinking is very smooth even in room temperature.

    One of the smoothes vodkas I had was Norwegian Linje Aquavit. It is vodka except it is kept the cask and is travelled across the equator.

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
  256. DFH says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    I went there over the summer and it seemed very spacious and new

  257. @Anatoly Karlin

    What are examples of Sovok food?

    In the case of Moscow, I guess Cafe Mu-Mu = Sovok, and Chekhov on Kuznetsky Most = Russian?

  258. @Thorfinnsson

    That is probably driven by all the Chinese tech firms listing since it’s getting harder for them to get loans locally. Saw one such case of a firm listing because they wished to raise the grand total of $50k which caused some discrete coughing at the SEC.

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
  259. S3 says:
    @Thorfinnsson

    I would have thought Muslims would be on your list.

    Anyway, do you mind if I ask you a question? How did you ever learn enough accounting to run your business? I am thinking of starting one myself and for the life of me can’t find anything that doesn’t put me to sleep. I am used to engineering texts. All the accounting stuff I have read so far reminds me of law books.

  260. @Ali Choudhury

    Plenty of dogs not from mainland China. And some potentially legitimate companies in genuine need of capital.

    https://www.iposcoop.com/last-100-ipos/

  261. S3 says:
    @Jaakko Raipala

    And furthermore I will give you my professional opinion: The best kernel in the world was Jeff Bonwick’s Solaris. (Bonwick is one of our people, by the way) You can feel the resentment that Torvalds had for him in this comment:

    http://dtrace.org/blogs/bmc/2007/11/11/on-dreaming-in-code/#comment-215

    http://dtrace.org/blogs/bmc/2007/11/11/on-dreaming-in-code/#comment-216

    The sad thing is that Solaris’s successor Illumos is now being run by Bonwick’s protege Bryan Cantrill, who (you guessed it) is one of their guys.

  262. Since it’s an open thread and I wrote about Canadian daycare and politicians before… The local government has reimbursed us 24% of our daycare expenses – right before the municipal election, lol. The big kid is returning there after a month’s break because he’s still late on his speech and needs to socialize. Also to pass some time in a screen free environment (a PAW Patrol addiction camp if you will). The daycare is very SWPL, with cooked on the spot meals (including kosher, halal, and vegetarian options) and yoga classes. Demographically it’s about 1/3 black Jamaican. Only one kid is Asian – these kids are more often met in free play centres with their grandparents.

  263. @S3

    Basic principle of accounting is double entry book keeping. Everything cancels out. A debit on one side of the ledger is a credit on the other.

    Beyond that it’s simply learning terms and how they related to you. I recommend reading the financial press and studying company filings, then look up unfamiliar terms on Investopedia.

    You don’t need to become a CPA–illiterate shopkeepers in India somehow manage to get it done. Investing books are much more interesting than accounting tomes.

  264. szopen says:

    Don’t talk about Vodka. One of the greatest tragedies of my life is that I, a pure Slav, cannot drink Vodka without being sick.

  265. DFH says:
    @LondonBob

    You’re right it was a trick question, but that doesn’t mean that he meant to say that taxes ought not to be paid to the Romans.

  266. S3 says:
    @German_reader

    “Greco-Roman perspective”

    Huh? Didn’t Alexander the Great’s father take seven wives or something?

  267. @S3

    Apparently he did (in sequence?), but Greeks and Romans were monogamous in general, it’s a notable difference from the Mideast.
    Of course they did other things abhorrent to modern sensibilities like sexually abusing their slaves or pederasty.

  268. @S3

    Its mostly the Romans that were fiercely associated with monogamy. Nero murdered his first wife so he could have a second wife. They were polygynous in siring and often had many unacknowledged children but legitimacy was extremely important, so marriage was a highly controlled institution.

  269. @S3

    Just play around with a free trial of QuickBooks and you will easily get the hang of it. Accounting is fairly straightforward once you understand the basics, taxation is usually more of a minefield.

    This would be a good place for advice: https://www.smallbusinessforums.org

  270. @szopen

    How so? Drink only vodka with lots of water. Don’t mix it with beer. Beer causes hangovers.

    • Replies: @szopen
  271. Dmitry says:
    @szopen

    In Poland, they sometimes use a lot of difficult ingredients in vodka?

    I have a similar problem with red wine though (always receiving from red wine, headaches and tiredness, however many times I try to enjoy it).

    • Replies: @szopen
  272. szopen says:
    @reiner Tor

    Hereditary condition meaning I don’t react well to alcohol. I don’t get drunk. I get sick, unless I drink very carefully. Currently I get a instinct reaction to the smell and taste of vodka (or any hard alcohol). I tolerate only ciders and sweet wines (like some baby girl, dammit).

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    , @iffen
  273. szopen says:
    @Dmitry

    Naah, i got the same reaction with porto, whiskey and some kind of japanese alcohol.

  274. In Hungary there’s a scandal about Orbán personally enjoying the sweet life. He often travels around on a private jet of one of his friends (who happens to be very competitive when it comes to receiving huge government contracts). Apparently Orbán and some high ranking government officials occasionally visited a private yacht belonging to another friend (who also happens to get lots of government contracts). The interesting thing is that civil servants are normally forbidden to receive large gifts (and a journey onboard a private jet already qualifies, “large” being defined as something like above 10,000 Forints, maybe $300), and large gifts are considered taxable income for any Hungarian resident. The Orbán family also has great business talent, his son-in-law is very successful in getting the best government contracts, too.

    • Replies: @AP
    , @iffen
    , @Anatoly Karlin
  275. @szopen

    Then you should be a teetotaler. Alcohol is not very healthy anyway.

    • Replies: @szopen
  276. @Duke of Qin

    Off topic, but 国庆节快乐! Also, you’re welcome to read my latest article on Zhihu: https://zhuanlan.zhihu.com/p/45801522.

    • Troll: reiner Tor
    • Replies: @Hyperborean
  277. szopen says:
    @reiner Tor

    You sound like my wife.

    • LOL: reiner Tor
  278. AP says:
    @reiner Tor

    Do you think the Russians have dirt on him?

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
  279. @Talha

    Muslims in the US are way too overconfident in thinking that people are simply leaving religion and the situation is just waiting for Islam to take over. We look at the Blue areas and think everyone is basically hedonistic but rarely keep track of what’s happening in Red fly-over country where Christians may not be practicing but have a strong sense of Christian identity. These are also heavily allied with Zionists and generally dislike Islam for one or other reason. We are losing plenty of our youth and are swimming against a very strong current. If Islam comes to the US it will be a long slog and may take many centuries.

    But is losing some children of Muslims to Christianity really such a blow? Surely the gulf between believers and non-believers is far wider than that between Muslims and Christians.

    And while we are on the subject, I’m interested in your thoughts on the law against proselytization that Russia introduced in 2016.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yarovaya_law

    • Replies: @German_reader
    , @Talha
  280. iffen says:
    @szopen

    I tolerate only ciders and sweet wines (like some baby girl, dammit).

    You are blessed my friend. I have the hereditary condition where after only a couple of drinks the world seems to have a chance.

  281. @Swedish Family

    But is losing some children of Muslims to Christianity really such a blow?

    Of course it is, leaving the true faith is to disobey Allah’s will, and you go to Hell for it, for all eternity (the same is of course true in traditional Christianity). Would you want your children to suffer eternal damnation, just because you failed as a parent and didn’t protect them from worldly temptations or the lure of another, false religion?
    Religion isn’t just a lifestyle.

  282. iffen says:
    @reiner Tor

    I thought Nazis were above hedonistic corruption.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    , @DFH
  283. @German_reader

    That certainly happens, but on the other hand you’ve also got the phenomenon that the 3rd or even 4th generation of Muslims in Europe is at least in part actually more religious than their parents and grandparents were. It’s not clear imo that secularization and Westernization will prevail.

    I would be very interested to see some hard data on this.

    Swedish academics claim that the very strong trend is that, in only 2 or 3 generations, immigrants quickly get swallowed up by their new host culture and retain only trappings of their ancestors’ culture (some favorite dish from back home, the odd loanword). My personal observations strongly support this theory.

    What aids this process in Sweden — and probably in Germany too, although I haven’t checked — is that our immigrants are such a motley lot that there is no earthly way they could form a strong common culture. Their options, then, are to assimilate into Swedish culture or to languish in very small cultural ghettoes. And most immigrants, it seems to me, quickly see that assimilation is the only way forward.

    The situation with all the Hispanics in the United States looks far trickier in comparison. Maybe you saw the news the other day that 67 million Americans don’t speak English at home?

    https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-09-20/48-us-residents-top-5-cities-dont-speak-english-home-67-million-overall

  284. Talha says:
    @Swedish Family

    We actually lose the lion’s share to atheism – Islam seems to generally inoculate against trinitarian disposition. Our ex-Muslims sometimes end up like these two…

    In general, they usually go SJW and quite liberal. Which was really their beef with Islam in the first place – that it was restrictive or they had a bad experience with their dad being a tyrant, etc. You rarely come across an ex-Muslim that becomes a traditional conservative Christian – it happens, but is rare.

    But yes, if I came across a Muslim that said he was fed up with Islam and absolutely going to leave and nothing could convince him otherwise; I’d encourage him not to go atheist, but rather into one of the two People of the Book options.

    law against proselytization that Russia introduced in 2016.

    This is not strange to us, many Muslim lands prohibit proselytization so it would be kind of hypocritical for me as a Muslim to complain. To be honest, they seem fairly reasonable – it seems they are just prohibiting missionary activity that can be intrusive and a bother. It looks like evangelical Protestant churches are likely to be hardest hit.

    Greece also interdicts proselytizing in its constitution – though Greek Orthodox has a favored position in the country as the state religion.

    Peace.

  285. iffen says:
    @Talha

    Does Islamist need a more definitive definition? You were accused of being one and you denied the accusation.

    • Replies: @Talha
  286. @Swedish Family

    Their options, then, are to assimilate into Swedish culture or to languish in very small cultural ghettoes.

    That seems excessively optimistic. Anyway, I tried to look for data, and regarding Turks in Germany the data seems to be somewhat ambivalent…there are studies claiming that the 3rd generation of them isn’t becoming more extreme, but actually somewhat less so, e.g. here:

    https://www.welt.de/politik/deutschland/article156269271/Islam-Gebote-stehen-ueber-dem-Gesetz-findet-fast-die-Haelfte.html

    (e.g. “only” 36% of 3rd generation Turks surveyed said that “Islam’s laws are more important to me than secular laws” as compared to 47% of 1st generation Turks, only 27% said that “Muslims should strive for a return to the society of Mohammed’s time, compared to 32% 1st generation Turks).

    Some amout of assimilation certainly happens, though unfortunately not least into leftist ethno-identitarian grievance-culture.
    On the other hand, it’s often said that wearing of headscarves as a marker of Islamic identity has become more common compared to 30 or 40 years ago. I’m not old enough to confirm that from personal experience though.
    As for the US, sure, in many ways much worse, but that’s hardly consolation.

    • Replies: @Swedish Family
  287. @Swedish Family

    Swedish academics claim that the very strong trend is that, in only 2 or 3 generations, immigrants quickly get swallowed up by their new host culture and retain only trappings of their ancestors’ culture

    And anyway, that at least certainly hasn’t happened with the majority of Turks in Germany, as recent affairs have abundantly made clear.
    The standard line is of course that it’s all due to German racism (and admittedly there were some very bad incidents in the 1990s and early 2000s, including some murders by Neonazis), but that has become increasingly dubious as an explanation, given the trajectory Turkey has taken (militantly anti-Western nationalism+Islamism).

  288. Talha says:
    @iffen

    Does Islamist need a more definitive definition?

    I would certainly hope so. These terms get sloppy. Islamist is a foreign and modern term. In my mind an Islamist is someone usually on the Salafi spectrum that uses the modern nation state as the given model in their discourse. They would likely have issues with something like the traditional monarchy model (say as in Jordan) while I do not. What scares me about them is that some of them (not all) are really gung ho about wanting to have just one-size-fits-all legislation when it comes to the Shariah (which is tremendously restrictive to non-Muslim minorities) – I’m more about parallel legal systems that help keep non-Muslims out of our courts.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @German_reader
  289. @gmachine1729

    Why don’t you take your communist lunacy elsewhere? If you really want to talk to Duke of Qin, please do it on a private platform like WeChat or QQ instead of on our comment board.

  290. @Talha

    You’ve admitted yourself in the past that you might with reason be called an Islamist:

    https://www.unz.com/akarlin/absolute-state-of-britbongia/#comment-2332284

    (looking at that thread makes me nostalgic, too bad Randal and probably Greasy William as well aren’t around here anymore).

    And what have Salafis to do with the modern nation state? Their entire project is a rejection of the nation state system which they seem to view as something imposed by infidels upon the Islamic world.

    Anyway, “Islamist” of course covers a wide spectrum, no one here accuses you of being a potential ISIS headchopper.

    • Replies: @iffen
    , @Talha
    , @Talha
  291. Dmitry says:
    @Talha

    https://twitter.com/aliamjadrizvi/status/1027249990664708096?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1027249990664708096&ref_url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.unz.com%2Fakarlin%2Fopen-thread-57%2F

    Every nationality and society, has people with these characteristics or personality disorders (exhibitionist whores, etc).

    In Muslim society, she would invariably be cheating her husband, with his friends. And in the Western capitalism, she is able to create a business from this same disordered behavior.

    In which is better, or she happier? It’s not easy to say. This behaviour not average in either society, but some kind of willful expression of a personality disorder – and such characters are as old as human history: whores are as universal as life and death.

    Whore not at all more foolish, than people who dress in stupid clothes and pretend they know more about god than others.

    Ironically, we can see, whores can be more spiritually developed in some ways, due to greater humbleness before god, than the priest, rabbi and imam – which are often the most sinful people, pretending to know about things they have little knowledge of, and even worse, benefiting from social position created by those lies.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
  292. Utu, I am sorry for previously making assumptions, but what the hell was up with this peculiarly personal comment?

    This is the more history of Islamists and Islamophobia. The bottom line is that both Islamists and Islamophobes are being played by the same forces. Actually they were created by the same forces. They were created against me. To screw up my world. So I am hostile and do not have much sympathy for characters like Talha and I am hostile to characters like Randal or German_reader partly because they are so unreflective in their Islamophobia. I understand them but I do not want the Islamists and Islamophobes to be a part of my world. We can get rid of Islamists but only w/o Islamophobia. With Islamophobia we will never secularize them and we will end up fighting somebody else’s wars, the wars Greasy William is praying for and Dimitri is cheerleading offering all kinds of apologia.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    , @utu
  293. iffen says:
    @German_reader

    no one here accuses you of being a potential ISIS headchopper.

    You didn’t, but you did imply that Islam is, at its core, incompatible with your vision of a future Germany. There doesn’t seem to be a place for Talha in your Germany.

    I have trouble viewing Talha as a threat. (I think he would improve my neighborhood.)

    But Talha is 1 of 1,000 Muslims. 1 of 10,000 ? 1 of 100,000?

    • Replies: @Talha
    , @Anatoly Karlin
  294. Talha says:
    @German_reader

    I said others might label me an Islamist (within reason has little to do with it since I followed it up with “it’s not our native term – so whatever”). I have been labeled a lot of things around here; Salafi, etc. I would not self-label as an Islamist.

    Islamists have generally swallowed the entire nation-state model down to the details including political parties and labels in Arabic.

    As you pointed out, some of them are very scary like Daesh and others are not so crazy and much more reasonable…still, I would not label myself as such nor join an Islamist political party, I’d rather change things at the organic and more important spiritual level and let the change come organically to society.

    Peace.

  295. Talha says:
    @German_reader

    And I agree, it’s too bad those guys are not around anymore.

    Peace.

  296. Talha says:
    @iffen

    Mwaaahahaha – the taqiyyah powers of persuasion (or as we call them in our inner circles “T-Pop”) are working…soon we will have the kufaar over for dinner to fatten them up…

    The plan is coming along nicely…

    Peace??!!

    • Replies: @German_reader
  297. @Talha

    That’s a caricature. I’ve mentioned Turkey and Algeria above as examples, developments over the last 30 years have been rather unpleasant for secular people. There’s no reason why anybody, apart from pious Muslims, should want to see something like that in his own country.

    • Replies: @Talha
  298. Talha says:
    @German_reader

    Well I’m not going to disagree with you here; if you are a secularist Muslim, why the heck would you want your society taken over by religious Muslims? Makes no sense.

    Just like if you are a religious Muslim you don’t want secularists taking over your societies and dealing with gay pride parades or whatever else secularism tends to bring these days.

    The secularists should have probably spent more time having babies than whatever secular stuff they were up to in Algeria and Turkey. Secularism just may be a social experiment that lasted a while longer than Communism. Just sayin’…

    Peace.

    • Replies: @German_reader
  299. @Talha

    We’ll see. I actually read an interview today with some German academic who said in his opinion Islam could collapse. He claims that during his travels to Iraq he has encountered many (ex-)Muslims who are so disgusted by the sectarian violence that they have turned away from Islam, either becoming atheists or showing interest in other religions…he compared it to the situation in Europe after the 30-years war and the beginnings of the Enlightenment.
    He also mentioned that some people in Iraq even want to return to the old Gods…apparently a Zoroastrian temple has been opened in Erbil. Would be kind of funny if Islam, the final revelation, got superseded itself by older faiths.

    • Replies: @Jayce
    , @Talha
    , @AP
  300. apparently a Zoroastrian temple has been opened in Erbil.

    Yes, apparently many of the Kurdish converts want a more Kurdish religion.

    • Replies: @Jayce
  301. Regarding Islam, I think what we witnessing is a sense of polarisation; while some Saracens are becoming more religious, others are increasingly disillusioned.

    https://www.salon.com/2014/06/12/atheism_explodes_in_saudi_arabia_where_just_talking_about_atheism_is_illegal_partner/

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2013/05/23/a-surprising-map-of-where-the-worlds-atheists-live/?utm_term=.048408679aea

    Regarding the latter poll, this was in 2013, before ISIS really burst upon the scene.

  302. Jayce says:
    @German_reader

    He also mentioned that some people in Iraq even want to return to the old Gods…apparently a Zoroastrian temple has been opened in Erbil.

    This causes some umbrage among the Iranian Zoroastrians I know as the Kurdish converts are prone to being obnoxious and making ridiculous claims like that Zoroaster lived in Kurdistan and Avestan was just an early form of Kurdish.

  303. Talha says:
    @German_reader

    I don’t doubt it since Iraq is ground zero for Daesh stupidity. This kind of hyper-violence is exactly how to get people to lose religion. Daesh are the neo-Khwarij and the Prophet (pbuh) is reported to have called the Khwarij “the dogs of Hell.”

    I’ve heard different things out of Syria. I know people who have family there and they report that the difficulties have made people firmer on the faith. So I guess it all depends.

    people in Iraq even want to return to the old Gods…

    Pazuzu!!! For all you Exorcist fans.

    got superseded itself by older faiths.

    Two points:
    1) it claims to be the oldest faith of mankind
    2) in Islamic eschatology, the godless will eventually triumph over Islam

    Peace.

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
  304. AP says:
    @German_reader

    Very interesting. Christians willing to risk a very high chance, if not certain chance, of martyrdom might gain some converts.

    • Replies: @iffen
  305. @Hyperborean

    utu, making personal remarks ultimately involving Jews?

    Impossible.

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
  306. OT: Chimpanzees have higher IQ than humans.

    I mean, IQ is working memory, right?

    https://www.livescience.com/27199-chimps-smarter-memory-humans.html

  307. @Daniel Chieh

    I was mainly thinking about this paranoid bit:

    Actually they were created by the same forces. They were created against me. To screw up my world.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  308. @Talha

    I’ve heard different things out of Syria. I know people who have family there and they report that the difficulties have made people firmer on the faith. So I guess it all depends.

    What side are they on? I think Greasy was talking about how some Assad loyalists are beginning to lose faith in Islam over on the British nationalism thread.

    • Replies: @Talha
  309. @Hyperborean

    He’s trolling.

    I’m looking for one of his trolls on CanSpeccy, the one where he “tries to help” CanSpeccy get assistance for his age-related problems but the Unz search isn’t letting it show up.

    Edit: ah, here it is.

    http://www.unz.com/jderbyshire/then-they-came-for-amy-wax-again-americas-cultural-revolution-is-speeding-up/#comment-2269465

  310. Jayce says:
    @Hyperborean

    Something similar happened in Tajikistan during the 90s and early 2000s on a smaller scale. It even had some low-key support from Rahmon’s regime, which invited a lot of mobeds and scholars into the country. The main guy behind it ended up getting assassinated and the movement fizzled out, although I’ve heard there’s a few dozen convert families who still practice privately.

  311. @reiner Tor

    This is why we must push for high bureaucrats and leaders to receive Singapore-style salaries. The Jose Mujica lifestyle is incompatible with right-wing psychology.

    • Agree: reiner Tor
  312. @iffen

    I will admit that while I’m not too interested in the overly theological posts, some of what Talha has written has been quite novel and interesting to me, and has probably shifted my view on Islam in a slightly more positive direction (even if the chances of me converting remain near absolute zero).

    • Agree: reiner Tor, iffen
  313. @Anatoly Karlin

    Trust me, I know more about Russia and Russians than your sorry Anglo ass.

    You may not like what I say, but facts are facts. Russians consider restaurants to be cuckish and gay. Yes, in this age of hipsterism and metrosexuality, the stigma around cuckoldry and gayness is much lower, but the underlying belief is still there, like it or not.

    P.S. The really hardcore SPWL Russians don’t go to restaurants. Not only do they cook their own food, they grown their own grain and their own animals too. Peak Russian SWPL is owning a farm with your own lamb/goat/cow. If you have any well-off Russian friends, ask around. You’ll be surprised.

  314. @AP

    Possible, and of course the Hungarian opposition thinks so (as Fidesz voters believed the same thing about Gyurcsány, the socialist prime minister 2004-08, who also had very close ties to Putin, and was bitterly criticized by Orbán for this), but I personally don’t think it’s terribly likely.

    Look, he does all these things out in the open. He doesn’t even care for appearances any longer (and this is especially true of his underlings and family members), because the chief prosecutor (who is appointed for very long fixed terms and can only be removed by a two-thirds majority vote of the National Assembly) is his man, and never fails to drop those cases where he starts investigations at all. (The chief prosecutor can investigate, and can even overtake cases from the police, then drop them, so basically he can block any investigations of anyone.)

    Of course it’s patently stupid to believe that such protections can stay in tact forever. The chief prosecutor might be pressured to resign, or might switch sides when the government changes (he didn’t back in 2002, when he was easier to remove, but back then everyone knew Orbán was likely to come back sooner or later, whereas if he’s out tomorrow, he’ll be out for good), or they might appoint some special prosecutor whose investigations the chief prosecutor cannot take over (I think it might go against the constitution to appoint such a special prosecutor, because the chief prosecutor oversees all investigations in the land and so can block any investigations, but usually where there’s a will there’s a way), or something else might happen. I hardly doubt so many people will tie their lives forever to Orbán, who will by then be a man of the past.

    Anyway, what could the Russians have on him which is not in the opposition papers? Everyone knows his daughter wears a $20,000 wristwatch, or that his son-in-law wins obscenely overpriced government contract. They don’t do that in a very professional manner, so you’ll find things like a big municipality hiring the son-in-law to write the public procurement tender, where one of his companies will also run and – of course! – win. It’s pretty amateurish, if you ask me, and easy to find. So what dirt can the Russians have on him?

    I think he simply uses (or thinks he uses) Putin as a counterbalance against the EU. (To an extent, also against Ukraine, though Ukraine is not very important for Hungary.) He also wants to do business with Russia, and doesn’t want a stupid Cold War Two against it, as it would be bad for Hungary and also for Europe. Of course he doesn’t want Russia to overrun all of the former Soviet empire, though I think (and Orbán thinks, too) that the Russians have neither the intention nor the capabilities to do that.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
  315. neutral says:
    @anonymous coward

    While I do have my suspicions that Karlin “went native” during his stint in America and other overseas trips, you cannot seriously argue that people living in cities grow their own grain.

    • Replies: @anonymous coward
  316. @reiner Tor

    The Chief Prosecutor of Hungary. Actually, he wasn’t removed after 2002 (I remembered incorrectly), simply his term back then was shorter (only six years compared to nine years now – about to expire in 2019, and likely to be appointed for another nine year term), so he could only stay until 2006. He remained personally loyal to Orbán back then, so the assumption is that he’ll stay loyal until 2028 (when his next term will expire). By that time most corruption charges will be impossible to pursue due to the statute of limitations.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P%C3%A9ter_Polt

  317. @iffen

    I know you wrote in jest, but of course Orbán is not even nearly a Nazi.

    On the other hand, the original Nazis were pretty corrupt, certainly by German standards.

    • Replies: @neutral
  318. @Swedish Family

    Swedish academics claim that the very strong trend is that, in only 2 or 3 generations, immigrants quickly get swallowed up by their new host culture and retain only trappings of their ancestors’ culture (some favorite dish from back home, the odd loanword).

    Ah, those Cultural Marxist Swedish academics? Well they would say that, wouldn’t they?

  319. @Talha

    You rarely come across an ex-Muslim that becomes a traditional conservative Christian – it happens, but is rare.

    It’s not rare in countries with an actual Christian presence, like Russia.

    Random internet sources say that single-digit percentages of Russian Muslims convert to Christianity. (And at a faster pace than the reverse.)

    • Replies: @Talha
  320. neutral says:
    @reiner Tor

    On the other hand, the original Nazis were pretty corrupt, certainly by German standards.

    Who was corrupt exactly?

  321. @Talha

    a fulfilling career as an adult film actress

    Imagine unironically believing that working in porn could be “fulfilling.” As opposed to mentally and emotionally burning out destroying the people involved, at least the “actors” and “actresses” themselves, but probably even the cameramen and directors etc.

  322. @neutral

    Who was corrupt exactly?

    I don’t remember the exact details, but I seem to remember that a lot of generals were bribed to ensure their loyalty when Hitler came to power.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
  323. @neutral

    Almost every Russian who lives in the city has a plot of agricultural land as well. (Certainly my family does too.)

    Grain is rare, but almost everyone grows veggies and/or potatoes.

    Potatoes and veggies aren’t SWPL, though. Peak SWPL is animal husbandry, though I’d guess those who raise animals also grow some grain for feed purposes, since I don’t imagine these people are okay with buying industrially-made feed.

    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
  324. @neutral

    Most Nazi leaders amassed fortunes. Goebbels, Göring, Bormann, even Hitler himself. They were theoretically public servants, and though their salaries were high, they were nowhere enough to maintain their lifestyles (usually multiple extravagant homes in elite neighborhoods, very expensive cars, etc.)

    One exception was Himmler, who had difficulties buying a house for his “second wife,” but finally Bormann helped his mistress to an expensive house (paid for by the German taxpayers, but unlike in the USSR, taxpayers didn’t retain ownership).

  325. @anonymous coward

    Yes, the country where you encounter a Central Asian lugging around a big yellow Yandex Food delivery box whenever you go down into the metro considers restaurants cuckish and gay. Suuure thing, dude.

    Moreover, you manage to not even get sovok restaurant culture right.

    Its main function was not, of course, to pick up girls, but to impress your friends and business acquaintances with how rich you are. A function they fulfilled on account of being vastly overpriced for their level of culinary quality and service. Fortunately this is now ancient history thanks to the magical, transformative impact of capitalism, free markets, and neoliberalism on making good things available at competitive prices.

    About that grain thing – too detached from reality to even comment on.

    • Replies: @anonymous coward
  326. neutral says:
    @reiner Tor

    Sure they were public servants, but they were cabinet level ministers, you think that a German minister today lives any less when it comes in terms of their housing, cars, cocktail parties?

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
  327. @anonymous coward

    Every *second/third* Russian *OVER FIFTY* grows veggies/potatoes on their rural holdings. Fixed.

    Animal husbandry happens amongst SWPLs, but it is extremely marginal (perhaps 1% of them) phenomenon. For a start, it is not economically feasible for the vast majority of them, even if they had the interest (which they generally don’t).

    • Replies: @anonymous coward
  328. @reiner Tor

    Goering was an avid “collector” of old European paintings.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
  329. DFH says:
    @iffen

    Are you actually a homo? serious question

    • Replies: @Talha
    , @iffen
  330. @Hyperborean

    Hitler himself had enormous revenue from the royalties to the Mein Kampf. The German government handed it out to newly wed couples and to every soldier fighting at the front, but Hitler didn’t forego royalties for these either.

    In 1933 he “forgot” to report his taxes to the Bavarian tax authorities, and after receiving a notice, he moved to make himself exempt from the requirement to pay or report any taxes on his income.

    He also had homes built for himself by the government or the NSDAP, but these homes became his personal property. Only his real estate was worth a vast fortune. But he also amassed a huge personal collection of paintings and other similar items, and of course felt free to use government funds to make his personal ends meet.

    Like all dictators, he lived like a king, but like many dictators (Stalin or the Hungarian communist János Kádár) he cultivated an image of a simple puritanical man. And he was a simple man in some respects (he ate shitty food and only had one girlfriend, albeit one decades younger than himself), but he had expensive tastes in many things (expensive classic paintings and other works of art, architecture and a palace in the mountains, expensive and fast cars, a fondness of flying in large private jets, a luxurious personal train – though some of these probably belonged to the German state, his art collection and his homes were private properties), so altogether his lifestyle was as expensive as that of any billionaire.

    (In Hungary there are still some people, mostly among the elderly, nostalgic for “goulash communism.” Well, János Kádár, dictator 1956-87, also ate shitty food and had horrible tastes in everything, but his favorite cars were Mercedes-Benz sedans, of which he had half a few of the most expensive models always at his personal disposal, he also had a very large second lakeside home at the Lake Balaton, which was built according to the worst Sovok aesthetics, i.e. ugly and with lots of plastic, but was huge and the real estate was or would’ve been expensive even in communist Hungary. His villa in Budapest was also huge. This simple and puritanical “man of the people,” a “simple worker,” always had lots of bodyguards with him and traveled in convoys or sometimes in a luxurious government train or a government jet. Like most communist dictators, he was fond of hunting, and had exclusive government forests where only the highest ranking officials and himself were allowed, and of course their diplomatic guests. Even his wive’s clothes were expensive and from materials normally unavailable for normal citizens of the country. His fridge was always full of luxurious food items, including exotic fruits and quality meat, but they always rotted there, because he ate simple foods only – it cost a lot anyway, and it never occurred to him to save taxpayer money by simply keeping the fridge empty. He also drank French cognac and other expensive Western drinks when it was offered to him, and it always happened when in the company of other high-ranking communist officials – so basically always, period. There was a joke that “French cognac is the drink of the toiling classes, which they drink through their elected representatives.” Admittedly, he was not a heavy drinker, it’s just a detail about the simple, puritanical life of an UHNWI. Stalin was similar – lots of huge and expensive dachas, often built to shitty standards, many of which he never visited, but they cost enormous amounts to the taxpayers anyway, and had to be maintained cleaned constantly. Stalin’s lifestyle was very expensive, but from a distance it superficially looked puritanical enough.)

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
  331. @Anatoly Karlin

    It’s less well-known, but Hitler also had a relatively large personal collection. He was often given paintings as presents for his birthdays, and over the years, with many officials (and organizations which paid for it) each giving one painting, his collection grew to a decent size. Though he planned to donate it to his planned huge museum in Linz, conveniently after his death. I don’t think anyone would’ve minded if kept it for his relatives after a hypothetical victory.

    Hitler didn’t personally spend much time growing his collection, unlike Göring, but it was part of his personal wealth nevertheless.

  332. @reiner Tor

    Thanks for the explication.

    There was a joke that “French cognac is the drink of the toiling classes, which they drink through their elected representatives.”

    Yes, I remember hearing this one, I found it quite funny when I first heard it.

  333. @Anatoly Karlin

    Yes, the country where you encounter a Central Asian lugging around a big yellow Yandex Food delivery box whenever you go down into the metro considers restaurants cuckish and gay. Suuure thing, dude.

    “Restaurant” means a French-style eatery with reserved tables, waiters and a menu. Obviously takeout and cafeterias aren’t restaurants. (Not understanding the distinction is yet more proof that you’re a fake Russian.)

    Its main function was not, of course, to pick up girls, but to impress your friends and business acquaintances with how rich you are.

    ‘Business acquaintances” in Soviet Russia? Are you mad?

    About that grain thing – too detached from reality to even comment on.

    Like I said, find an actual well-to-do Russian and ask around. It seems like you live in some sort of expat bubble.

    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
  334. @Anatoly Karlin

    Every *second/third* Russian *OVER FIFTY* grows veggies/potatoes on their rural holdings. Fixed.

    More like “over forty”. But you’re right, this is the kind of hobby that is too expensive for someone working a 12-hour job and taking care of little kids at the same time.

    But the key takeaway is this: twenty years ago it was the same, and twenty years from now it will be the same too. It’s not a generational fad, it’s a fixture of Russian culture that will not ever go away barring large-scale ethnic cleansing. The twenty-somethings today will be growing veggies and potatoes in twenty years when they get closer to retirement.

    Animal husbandry happens amongst SWPLs, but it is extremely marginal (perhaps 1% of them) phenomenon. For a start, it is not economically feasible for the vast majority of them, even if they had the interest (which they generally don’t).

    It’s the goal of peak SWPL in Russia. Obviously only the very elite can ever reach this goal. Most imagine themselves striving for it, though.

  335. @Dmitry

    Whore not at all more foolish, than people who dress in stupid clothes and pretend they know more about god than others.

    They are. Porn actresses usually end their lives miserably (very high occurrence of drug abuse or alcoholism, sky-high suicide rates, etc.), their relations with their relatives (children and spouses included) are probably much much worse than for priests, etc. From a pure self-interest point of view, priests (even catholic priests foregoing marriage) are probably way smarter and better-adjusted people than porn “stars.”

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  336. Nznz says: • Website

    Why would you like to attract SWPLs, given that moral degeneracy and SWPL behavior is basically a package and you cannot untie one from the other?

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
    , @reiner Tor
  337. @Nznz

    Why would you like to attract SWPLs, given that moral degeneracy and SWPL behavior is basically a package and you cannot untie one from the other?

    Do you ever realise how many of your posts are simply composed of questions?

  338. @neutral

    Merkel is certainly personally not any richer than fifteen years ago. She had a house and maybe a weekend house, and she still has those, but she didn’t have a palace built for her in the mountains. And she’s the chancellor, certainly higher than a simple government minister like Goebbels, who had a couple villas within a few years of becoming government minister, and had a wholly government-owned publisher pay him millions as advance payments for his diaries (which were to be published only twenty years after his death). Though it’s possible that those diaries would’ve become bestsellers in the event of a German victory, I’m still wondering if it’d have made a profit for the publisher. Seems unlikely.

  339. @Nznz

    I think there’s right-wing SWPL. I’m certainly one. It’s idiotic not to value good coffee and good food. Though organic is often over-hyped and for the wrong reasons, it’s usually better than factory farming and large-scale chemical usage. Even GMO is usually bad in a number of ways.

    I found that being reflexively against SWPL things certainly drives many in the upper middle classes away from Fidesz in Hungary, and the middle class of course follows the upper middle class. That’s my social milieu, so that’s why I thought Fidesz had a chance of losing in April. It’s pretty unfortunate, because these classes now actively encourage their children to leave the country, which will long-term make Hungary a shithole. (And I’m still wondering if we’ll avoid the poz. We’re just one election or heart attack of a fat guy away from the end of Orbán’s system.)

    • Agree: Anatoly Karlin
    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    , @iffen
    , @Talha
    , @utu
  340. Talha says:
    @Hyperborean

    They are on the side that hates both Assad and groups like Daesh and al-Qaeda. Possibly why their faith is intact and growing.

    Peace.

  341. iffen says:
    @AP

    Christians willing to risk a very high chance, if not certain chance, of martyrdom might gain some converts.

    Worked in Rome.

    • Replies: @Talha
  342. Talha says:
    @DFH

    You’re about to get a couple of F-bombs thrown your way…

    Peace.

    • Replies: @iffen
    , @DFH
  343. @anonymous coward

    “Restaurant” means a French-style eatery with reserved tables, waiters and a menu.

    No, it doesn’t. Full stop.

    You can just walk into Cafe Pushkin and be served nine times out of ten for crying out loud.

    ‘Business acquaintances” in Soviet Russia? Are you mad?

    I was thinking more of the 1990s, which were still culturally Soviet.

    Like I said, find an actual well-to-do Russian and ask around. It seems like you live in some sort of expat bubble.

    Poorer, older, more Soviet Russians grow potatoes and vegetables (not grain).

    Younger, middle-class, middle-aged Russians who still have a dacha grow flowers or whatever.

    More like “over forty”. But you’re right, this is the kind of hobby that is too expensive for someone working a 12-hour job and taking care of little kids at the same time.

    No, over 50. I was actually tempted to write over 60, but wrote over 50 to be conservative.

    The idea of digging up potatoes appeals to very few young people today for rather obvious reasons.

    Even in both the USSR and 1990s, it was done more out of necessity than anything else (the pension of a kolkhoz worker was not sufficient to get by without growing your own produce).

    The only way today’s yuppies will be growing potatoes and vegetables on their garden plots when they retire is if (1) we become the Russian People’s Democratic Republic or (2) there is a nuclear war, or (3) both.

    It’s the goal of peak SWPL in Russia.

    It is approximately the 100th goal of SWPL on the priority scale.

    • Replies: @anonymous coward
  344. Talha says:
    @anonymous coward

    Yeah, I’m not sure about the situation in Russia to be honest, mostly just the US.

    Peace.

  345. It seems like Western NGOs are beginning to demand more submission to the poz in Georgia.

    https://www.rferl.org/a/russia-accused-of-stoking-far-right-in-georgia/29519509.html

  346. @reiner Tor

    In Hungary in 2010 the rightist mayor appointed as head of the Budapest public transportation a guy who was the nephew of an ex-wife of one of Orbán’s cousins or something. The guy happened to be a SWPL (but obviously with some Fidesz sympathies), and organized the public transportation very well. (Bike stations were started under him, too.) But due to personal reasons he fell out with the mayor, who fired him in 2014, and any improvement in public transportation since then is simply a result of projects started under him. But it’s now often getting worse and worse.

    Public transport is a very SWPL issue, and I see no reason why right-wing political parties should be opposed to its improvement. The Budapest mayor, though, in all his wisdom, opposed for example when traffic lights were changed on the main boulevard of Budapest to accelerate tram traffic. Instead, he wanted to favor cars (as was the case under the commies and liberals until 2010). He didn’t care when it was pointed out to him that 90% of the people traveling the route travel in trams, and less than 10% in cars. That was outright idiotic.

  347. iffen says:
    @reiner Tor

    Wasn’t there a lot of self dealing in the extraction of wealth from Jews, especially in the emigration area? I have read that a lot of the seized and extorted wealth didn’t make it into the Reich treasury.

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
  348. iffen says:
    @DFH

    Fuck off. Serious reply.

  349. @Anatoly Karlin

    No, it doesn’t. Full stop.

    It does in Russia. If that tickles your jimmes, you can always go back to where you’re from.

    You can just walk into Cafe Pushkin and be served nine times out of ten for crying out loud.

    Cafe Pushkin is a takeout place for super-expensive pastries, not a restaurant.

    I was thinking more of the 1990s, which were still culturally Soviet.

    a) They weren’t.
    b) “”Business acquaintances”” back then were more likely to meet in a ‘sauna’ sharing a whore than in a restaurant.

    Younger, middle-class, middle-aged Russians who still have a dacha grow flowers or whatever.

    No, they grow more upscale veggies (tomatoes) or berries.

    Even in both the USSR and 1990s, it was done more out of necessity than anything else (the pension of a kolkhoz worker was not sufficient to get by without growing your own produce).

    You got that fake little factoid from some western fake news media. Growing produce is never, ever economical for an urban dweller. People in Russia grow (and grew in the 90′s) produce because it’s “organic” and because you can’t get things like real strawberries from stores.

    Those who starved out of necessity in the 90′s subsisted on cheap pasta and didn’t waste their energy on digging holes in the ground.

    The only way today’s yuppies will be growing potatoes and vegetables on their garden plots when they retire is if (1) we become the Russian People’s Democratic Republic or (2) there is a nuclear war, or (3) both.

    There are no ‘yuppies’ in Russia. Like I said, leave your expat bubble. You will be surprised.

    It is approximately the 100th goal of SWPL on the priority scale.

    Au contraire. Every SWPL dreams of downshifting and leaving the urban grind some day. For the bottom-barrel SWPL that means Thailand and cheap pot, for the upscale SWPL that means some ‘organic’, ecological estate in a remote-but-accessible corner of Russia.

  350. iffen says:
    @reiner Tor

    I guess that I should have paid closer attention to your posts on Orban and Hungarian politics. It was in my head that for the political long term Hungary was in better shape that the US.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
  351. iffen says:
    @Talha

    LOL

    Posted my reply before reading this!

    • Replies: @Talha
  352. @iffen

    I personally don’t really think so, though I think Hungary has perhaps better chances if the EU and NATO fall apart and if we don’t get bogged down in wars with our neighbors as a result. Two big ifs.

    Otherwise we have Gypsies, so even demographically questionable future.

    • Replies: @iffen
    , @Pumblechook
  353. neutral says:

    Check this out, these people are dead serious.

    https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/heat-vision/star-wars-last-jedi-was-targeted-by-russian-trolls-study-says-1148475

    Putin is directing his spies to target Star Wars for some strange reasons.

  354. iffen says:
    @reiner Tor

    Otherwise we have Gypsies, so even demographically questionable future.

    Can’t you just send them to Head Start? It worked for us, ask anybody.

  355. utu says:
    @Hyperborean

    Very lucid piece. Rare for me. An exasperation must have had cleared my mind. But I do not remember the context and what stimulate me but I do not feel like searching through the comment history.

    I think it is pretty obvious what it is about. About mindlessness when hates are unleashed. You are asking about what is “my world” and “my life.” This is general. And general is personal. My world is like the world people speak about when they speak of the antebellum world when before the war some problems did not exist. You did not have to deal with them. That’s why it is personal. When a war and strife approaches and the general forces push you to get involved and take a position you may ask why this is happening and who is responsible. Who unleashed the hates? You may hate other actors in the theater less when you recognize they are just actors or puppets.

    This also alludes to the fact that the dictum “the enemy of my enemy is my friend” has another solution. What do you do if the wanna be friend is siccing his enemies on you and just creating an enemy for you? Do you follow the dictum or act against it?

  356. @anonymous coward

    Cafe Pushkin is a takeout place for super-expensive pastries, not a restaurant.

    The menu looks like that of a restaurant, though:

    https://cafe-pushkin.ru/wp-content/themes/struck/pdf/PHARMACY_HALL_en.pdf

    • Replies: @anonymous coward
  357. Talha says:
    @iffen

    Well I guess you were feeling more generous than I gave you credit for; I was sure that he was going to be staring down the business end of at least one or two more. Is it your birthday or something?

    Peace.

    • Replies: @iffen
  358. @anonymous coward

    Cafe Pushkin is a takeout place for super-expensive pastries, not a restaurant.

    Thank you for making my job here (showing that you’re full of shit) trivially easy.

    I imagine this was a figment of my imagination:

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    , @Epigon
  359. iffen says:
    @Talha

    Is it your birthday or something?

    No. Believe it or not, but I have actually been trying to elevate my language. I am just not very good at it.

    RE: Islam in America

    If I were going to ban a religion in America it would be Mormonism before Islam.

    But if we ban a religion it wouldn’t be America any longer.

    OTOH, Sharia wouldn’t be America either.

    Damned if you do, damned if you don’t.

    • Replies: @Talha
  360. Talha says:
    @iffen

    It did work quite well in Rome and it spectacularly failed in the Muslim world. Both Prof. Michael Bonner in:

    https://press.princeton.edu/titles/8280.html

    And Prof. Christian Sahner in:

    https://press.princeton.edu/titles/13216.html

    …outlined the various historical attempts by certain very zealous Christians to turn the tide against Christian conversions to Islam. Bonner writes, under the chapter “Martyrs and Neomartyrs”:
    “In a series of episodes, a Christian, usually an ecclesiastic, would convert to Islam, and then openly and publicly renounce it—an act for which Islamic law requires death. The Muslim qadi (judge) would try unsuccessfully to change the apostate’s mind; execution then took place. Comparable events took place in Palestine and Syria at approximately the same time. It is clear, even in the Christian narratives, that the Muslim authorities did not want this outcome and tried to prevent it. These events created storms within the Christian communities, where the authorities soon put a stop to them. They seem to have attracted little notice from the neighboring Muslims…”

    But maybe today would be different, who knows…

    Peace.

    • Replies: @iffen
    , @iffen
  361. Dmitry says:
    @reiner Tor

    You misread both points I was saying to Talha.

    As explained, priests/rabbis/imans are particularly bad in this criteria, precisely because they benefit in worldly terms from a social position their job gives them.

    A “confidence scam”, will benefit you in worldly terms (priests/rabbis/imans are benefiting). To both participate in this scam, and at the same time to have based such scam around being “holy” or “closer to god” (in area which exploits people’s most vulnerable dreams) – is a particularly high sin.

    As for pornstars themselves, if you read what I wrote, the “job” is generally expression of psychological disorders – it’s not a average job in either society. Regardless if they lived Muslim society, or pre-porn society, these individuals, would have the similarly disordered lives and symptoms.

  362. Talha says:
    @reiner Tor

    And I’m still wondering if we’ll avoid the poz. We’re just one election or heart attack of a fat guy away from the end of Orbán’s system.

    It becomes a national imperative to get that guy on a tread mill.

    Peace.

  363. @reiner Tor

    I know very little about the internal situation in Hungary (no friends from there, the language barrier etc.) but is it possible that your take is even slightly coloured by living in Budapest and dwelling amongst the core SWPL types? Approx. 50% votes for Fidesz and an additional 20% for Jobbik – surely we can’t be asking for much more here!

    I know that Hungary has its weird libertarian streak (public pornos being shot in Budapest, girls dressing pretty slutty – no offence etc.) but I’ve never seen this as anything much different than the Czech situation (where they are pretty based but just like to do what they hell they want) and not necessarily being indicative of extreme levels of Poz…

  364. iffen says:
    @Talha

    It did work quite well in Rome and it spectacularly failed in the Muslim world.

    Sometimes the magic works, sometimes …

    https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=little+big+man+some+times+the+magic+works&view=detail&mid=C0ED9ABA7DBB4F8A6CAFC0ED9ABA7DBB4F8A6CAF&FORM=VIRE

  365. Talha says:
    @iffen

    Mormonism before Islam

    I think we just found the most “based” guy here – he went there. I and my brother knew plenty of Mormon guys in high school, easiest guys to get along with for us practicing Muslims – we actually get to make jabs at them for their restrictions!

    OTOH, Sharia wouldn’t be America either.

    It would definitely be a transformed America and a break from its historic norm (which was a splendid experiment, I might add). At the end of the day, the Constitution is negotiable by the principles under which it was written (Article V, of course) – whether that was a smart or stupid decision, I can’t tell. But the same democratic process that could get Shariah enshrined as basis for legal judgments in the land could also get it banned – so who knows? The funny thing is, a Shariah-ruled America would guarantee that Mormonism would not be banned just as much as it protected, say, Nestorians from Chalcedonian writ being imposed on their ecclesiastic authorities and institutions.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @iffen
  366. @reiner Tor

    They have both a restaurant and a pastry shop. (The pastry shop is way more popular as far as I can tell.)

  367. Dmitry says:

    Something strange I read yesterday – toxoplasma gondii infection (the same one which causes mice to lose their fear of cats, allowing the parasite to complete its lifecycle from mice to cats) correlated to business interests and entrepreneurial activity .

    Risky business: linking Toxoplasma gondii infection and entrepreneurship behaviours across individuals and countries.

    … Using a saliva-based assay, we found that students (n = 1495) who tested IgG positive for T. gondii exposure were 1.4× more likely to major in business and 1.7× more likely to have an emphasis in ‘management and entrepreneurship’ over other business-related emphases. Among professionals attending entrepreneurship events, T. gondii-positive individuals were 1.8× more likely to have started their own business compared with other attendees (n = 197). Finally, after synthesizing and combining country-level databases on T. gondii infection from the past 25 years with the Global Entrepreneurship Monitor of entrepreneurial activity, we found that infection prevalence was a consistent, positive predictor of entrepreneurial activity and intentions at the national scale, regardless of whether previously identified economic covariates were included. Nations with higher infection also had a lower fraction of respondents citing ‘fear of failure’ in inhibiting new business ventures. While correlational, these results highlight the linkage between parasitic infection and complex human behaviours, including those relevant to business, entrepreneurship and economic productivity.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/30051870

    Maybe World Bank and IMF, will start infecting the populations of developing countries with toxoplasma gondii, in order to spread capitalism around the world?

    (There could be problems establishing causation in this study thoug? – are people with more dynamic personalities, more likely to eat undercooked meat?).

    • Replies: @DFH
  368. AP says:
    @Talha

    Without reading anything about her, almost guarantee that Yasmeena was sexually abused as a child.

    • Replies: @Talha
  369. utu says:
    @reiner Tor

    reflexively against SWPL

    I wonder where does it come from? Some SWPL issues are good for everybody. By enlarging the customer base for things that yuppies and hipsters started and like will drive hipsters away into even more pretentious endeavors.

  370. DFH says:
    @Talha

    I read thiese replies in a seminar and got asked why I was smiling.

  371. DFH says:
    @Dmitry

    Maybe World Bank and IMF, will start infecting the populations of developing countries with toxoplasma gondii, in order to spread capitalism around the world?

    From your lips to the Economist’s editorial writers’ ears

  372. iffen says:
    @Talha

    It’s just an evaluation of the threat. I can see why GR views Islam as a threat because it is a greater threat to Germany than to the US.

    As long as they are kept out of the cockpit, I don’t view Muslims as a threat.

    Amish and Jehovah’s Witnesses are not a threat.

    Mormons and Mennonites are a threat.

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
    , @Talha
  373. @iffen

    As long as they are kept out of the cockpit, I don’t view Muslims as a threat.

    Amish and Jehovah’s Witnesses are not a threat.

    Mormons and Mennonites are a threat.

    I can understand why the Mormon Mafia might be considered a threat, but aren’t the Amish and Mennonites closely related? Why is one a threat but not the other?

    • Replies: @iffen
  374. Talha says:
    @iffen

    As long as they are kept out of the cockpit, I don’t view Muslims as a threat.

    Infidel! We shall storm the cockpit in glorious hordes with box cutters!! Mwaaahahahaha!!!

    But on a serious note, I can understand this since we also kind of lock the cockpit once we have control. Again, the Constitution allows for it to be amended (particularly the “no religious test for public office” clause) to keep Muslims (and I guess Mormons) out of sensitive areas. Again, totally understandable.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
  375. Talha says:
    @AP

    Possibly but she doesn’t mention it, which I think would be kind of atrazine she is already talking about how bad Islam and Afghan culture are and that her parents disowned her. Why would she keep silent about that? I would imagine she would expose that too.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @Talha
    , @AP
  376. Talha says:
    @Talha

    “Atrazine”??!! I meant “weird” – stupid smart phone!

  377. @Talha

    Infidel! We shall storm the cockpit in glorious hordes with box cutters!! Mwaaahahahaha!!!

    While Americans would do well to keep in mind that even with their vast oceans protecting them they are not invincible, I am not sure you should be joking about this particular event.

    • Replies: @Talha
  378. Talha says:
    @Hyperborean

    I know…that set up with keeping Muslims out of the cockpit was just too tempting…

    Peace.

  379. iffen says:
    @Hyperborean

    Amish and Mennonites closely related?

    I am not as knowledgeable as I should be on the subject, but I think that the Amish stick to their own area and society while Mennonites are all in on expansion and colonization of new areas.

    • Replies: @AP
  380. AP says:
    @Talha

    Abused people sometimes are very quiet about what was done to them despite behaving outrageously in other areas.

    Working in a central city clinic, I’ve met dozens of sex workers and almost all of them have been abused (there is also a high percentage, but not as high, of victims among women who are heroin junkies).

    Next time someone watches porn with professional actresses, understand that the woman was once a little girl who had horrible things done to her. Kind of kills the enjoyment.

    • Replies: @Talha
  381. AP says:
    @iffen

    Amish are colonizing new areas due to their exploding population. However they do not interfere with normal society and are very nonviolent.

    • Replies: @utu
  382. Nznz says: • Website
    @anonymous coward

    So Matt Forney, Joseph Fritzl, and Andrew Angling are SWPL?

    • Replies: @anonymous coward
  383. Mr. Hack says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    Since I don’t really know anything concrete about the subject matter (and therefore should butt out), I still find your little spat amusing. I suspect that the real truth lies somewhere in the middle and proves that reality is subject to ones own impressions and interpretations. I do, however, place a lot of value on your (Karlin’s) culinary opinions.

  384. Nznz says: • Website

    Isn’t public transpo more Sovok and prole and SWPL? Electric cars are SWPL while diesels are prole, and Tesla has always been anti public transportation. Commieblocks are prole while detached housing is SWPL.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  385. @iffen

    Wasn’t just the Jews. Junkers AG was expropriated from Hugo Junkers by Goering and Milch almost immediately after the Nazis came to power. Assets in conquered territories, whether or not they were owned by Jews, were also regularly expropriated (mostly commonly by Reichswerke Hermann Goering, which in theory at least was state-owned rather than Goering’s private property).

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    , @iffen
  386. utu says:
    @AP

    Most likely iffy does not like Mennonites because they have a bad rap among Jews. Mennonites in USSR were way too friendly with Germans during the WWII. They served in auxiliary police in anti-Jewish actions and as guards in some camps.

    After the WWII some Mennonites found refuge in Canada just like Ukrainian Banderites who also had spotty record during the WWII.

    • Replies: @utu
    , @iffen
  387. @Nznz

    Public transportation is SWPL when it is perceived as cool: bullet trains and maglevs. I once played around with light rail plus electric bikes, pretty hipster.

  388. @Nznz

    So Matt Forney, Joseph Fritzl, and Andrew Angling are SWPL?

    Don’t know who these clowns are and don’t care. I was talking about Russians.

  389. utu says:
    @utu

    Amish felt they had to repent

    https://www.jpost.com/Christian-In-Israel/Features/Amish-leaders-burden-to-reconcile-with-the-Jewish-people
    Late last year, a delegation of 45 Amish community members from the United States and Switzerland paid an unusual visit to Jerusalem to present to Israeli government and rabbinic leaders a declaration of repentance for the movement’s historic disregard for the Jewish people and its silence during the Holocaust.

    The document also states that the Amish will now “bless” and speak out strongly in support of Israel and the Jewish people.

  390. Talha says:
    @AP

    I’ve met dozens of sex workers and almost all of them have been abused

    I certainly do not doubt this. Works like the one I cited and even those by people like Chris Hedges and others leave little doubt that victims of early abuse are disproportionately represented in the porn industry. I simply am not certain either way with this lady, it could very well be she was…don’t know.

    Also, and my wife is a counselor, I have heard from counselors that are not afraid to talk about it, that the correlation with homosexuals and being sexually asbud

    porn with professional actresses

    This is an interesting point. I don’t recall whether it was someone on Unz or something I read on Roosh’s site or somewhere else, but someone had mentioned the boom in unprofessional, do-it-yourself porn where the neighbor next door might be streaming something to somebody in Madagascar and you wouldn’t even know it. What is this an indication of? Does this mean our culture is becoming more “pornified” as Pamela Paul titled her book or is this an indication that there is a hidden rise in child sexual abuse that we are starting to see in a surge of this kind of behavior?

    Peace.

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    , @Talha
  391. @Thorfinnsson

    Incidentally, of all the crimes committed by the Nazis the expropriation of Junkers has always struck me as the worst.

    • Replies: @iffen
  392. @Talha

    Worth pointing out that many women also falsely make up stories about abuse, assault, rape, etc.

    Also worth pointing out that women who are messed up to begin with are more likely to get into situations where they will be abused.

    Our culture is getting more pornified. That in itself is probably driving more sexual abuse, though I don’t doubt that whores have a higher incidence of prior abuse than the general population.

  393. Talha says:
    @Talha

    Man, I am screwing things up…should have been:
    “I have heard from counselors that are not afraid to talk about it, that the correlation with homosexuality and being sexually abused as a child is very high also.”

  394. iffen says:
    @Talha

    They seem to have attracted little notice from the neighboring Muslims…”

    I wonder if the Romans were just unfamiliar with this type of religious fanaticism and it just freaked them out. While the Muslims, being bigger religious fanatics than the Jews and Christians put together would have responded, “Yawn. I’ll see your martyr and raise you a hundred.”

    • Replies: @Talha
  395. iffen says:
    @utu

    Most likely iffy does not like Mennonites because they have a bad rap among Jews.

    Damn, I’m good. I knew that I had a talent, but this is crazy. I don’t even need to read history anymore. I can smoke’m out of the ether.

  396. iffen says:
    @Thorfinnsson

    Where does snuffing retards and Down’s kids rank with you?

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
  397. iffen says:
    @Thorfinnsson

    Wasn’t just the Jews.

    There were a lot of freelancers in the “safe passage” for Jews business.

  398. szopen says:

    In other news: POlish prime minister Morawiecki’s private conversations from 2013 were recorded and published (part of them). There is only one interesting thing for me: He says (in 2013) that there is more 17y/o in Nigeria alone than in whole Europe and they will invade Europe, and “we would have to push them away, shoot them”. Damn. I was impressed. Despite all his flaws, if he really recognizes this problem and if he really would be ready to push this human flood away, he deserves my vote – and I’ve never voted for his party before :D

    • Replies: @German_reader
  399. @szopen

    we would have to push them away, shoot them

    Did he say that in a way that indicated he thinks that would be the acceptable and right thing to do…or was it more like “We couldn’t do that, it would destroy all of our values”?
    Anyway, I don’t even think something like that would be necessary…the invasion underway could still be stopped easily if there was the political will, but instead it’s enabled and facilitated by political elites. Merkel’s government has just decided they won’t even try to deport rejected asylum seekers, but instead legalize them (because “skilled workers” are allegedly in short supply)…which will inevitably cause another flood to come.
    You’d better prepare for putting minefields on your western border.

    • Replies: @szopen
    , @DFH
  400. szopen says:
    @German_reader

    “Did he say that in a way that indicated he thinks that would be the acceptable and right thing to do…or was it more like “We couldn’t do that, it would destroy all of our values”?”

    Not sure. In the written form it looks just like the prediction that we (Europe) will do it, but some who have already heard the audio claim it was rather a rhetorical question, in the sense “What will we do? We will shoot them?” which definetely destroys my previous optimism. I am trying to download the audio, but the transfer is awful and breaks down, seems a lot of people tries do same as me :D

  401. @iffen

    Violates one of the Ten Commandments and is certainly immoral but can’t really be bothered to care much. I’ve never liked retards, let alone ugly retards.

    Meanwhile Hugo Junkers was a pioneering genius whose company was blatantly stolen from him and justified with the most outrageous lies.

    • Troll: iffen
  402. Talha says:
    @iffen

    Bonner talks about Christians borrowing a bit from and adapting to the Muslim martyr tradition. I think the issue is from two sides:
    1) The Romans were mistreating and persecuting (Bonner mentions Diocletian) the Christians in the first place (well, the Christians were kind of getting on their nerves about salvation, as we Abrahamics tend to do), but that was no excuse to go postal on them. I think the fact that Christians were willing able to go to death for their faith representing a strong belief and conviction, one that had a very strong impact on the Romans.
    2) The Muslims were not throwing Christians to the lions and such – they had a Divine mandate to leave space for Christians in their new order. If you look at the situation Prof. Bonner describes, it seems fairly contrived; some church dude converts to Islam and then purposefully apostates to get his head chopped off to prove a point. The Muslim authorities try to avoid the situation, but he persists. Honestly, that just seems like drama and doesn’t seem very sincere – not saying that there weren’t sincere apostates that were killed, because there certainly were, but these weren’t the ones done with fanfare. It seems to me a bit like some guy going out in the middle of town square with a shotgun to “Blow my own brains out for Jesus!” or something.

    From the book (regarding Muslim martyrs):
    “It has been remarked that this focus on individual spiritual reward could and often did result in a disregard for the actual outcome of war.12 For indeed, in military history, we encounter army commanders who find themselves hindered and frustrated by the presence, under their command, of heaven-seeking volunteers (muttawwi”a). Sometimes these commanders marginalize these disorganized, unreliable troops in order to rely on their more dependable and better-trained regulars, who may be all the more effective for their greater prudence and their reluctance to die. At any rate, what concerns us here is the individualist aspect of the doctrine. If the Christian Church was built over the bones of its martyrs, the Islamic community admired its martyrs as models of physical courage, relentless striving (jihad), and the individual internalization of norms.”

    Peace.

    • Replies: @iffen
  403. iffen says:
    @Talha

    If the Christian Church was built over the bones of its martyrs, the Islamic community admired its martyrs as models of physical courage, relentless striving (jihad), and the individual internalization of norms.”

    Exactly.

    In the 1st century AD, some Romans were impressed with this Christian martyrdom. By the 6th and 7th centuries the Muslims, who did martyrdom in spades, were bored by Christian martyrs.

    • Replies: @Talha
    , @German_reader
  404. iffen says:

    Is there a word for American sovoks?

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
  405. @iffen

    Patriotards
    Boomercons
    Cuckservatives

    • Replies: @AquariusAnon
    , @iffen
  406. Talha says:
    @iffen

    I can definitely see that…there is probably also this potential dynamic going on:

    Potential Christian Martyr: “I’m going to give my life up just like Jesus did when he was killed on the cross!”

    Muslim Observer: “Jesus (pbuh) wasn’t killed on the cross.”

    PCM: “…”

    Peace.

  407. @Talha

    This is not strange to us, many Muslim lands prohibit proselytization so it would be kind of hypocritical for me as a Muslim to complain. To be honest, they seem fairly reasonable – it seems they are just prohibiting missionary activity that can be intrusive and a bother. It looks like evangelical Protestant churches are likely to be hardest hit.

    Greece also interdicts proselytizing in its constitution – though Greek Orthodox has a favored position in the country as the state religion.

    How interesting. I didn’t know this practice was so widespread, and it does make a lot of sense when you think of it.

  408. @iffen

    By the 6th and 7th centuries the Muslims, who did martyrdom in spades

    Christian and Muslim martyrdom was rather different, I’d say. Christian behaviour may have impressed some observers because it was so unnatural, non-violently submitting to torture and execution (or even actively seeking them), refusing to renounce their faith despite strong incentives to do so (of course that’s an idealized picture…many Christians did sacrifice during the persecutions to save themselves). Whereas Islamic martyrdom is fighting and dying in war. Which isn’t any different imo from what pagans had done for centuries.
    And anyway, Christianity wasn’t successful in the end because of the martyrs (who can know for sure if such “unreasonable” behaviour didn’t repel more people than it attracted converts?), but because Christians captured the machinery of the imperial government and successfully discriminated all other faiths, except the Jews, out of existence.

    • Replies: @iffen
    , @iffen
    , @utu
    , @Talha
    , @iffen
  409. @German_reader

    “only” 36% of 3rd generation Turks surveyed said that “Islam’s laws are more important to me than secular laws” as compared to 47% of 1st generation Turks, only 27% said that “Muslims should strive for a return to the society of Mohammed’s time, compared to 32% 1st generation Turks

    Those figures are indeed far worse than I would have hoped. We shouldn’t rule out, however, that German Turks for some reason could be especially hard to assimilate, which would color the figures (maybe they all live among their own in tight-knit ghettoes). It wouldn’t be my first guess, but it’s a possibility.

  410. Why would Turks be especially difficult to assimilate (apart from their nutcase nationalism)? Turkey is a very flawed country, but traditionally it has been at least somewhat westernized. Even today Turkey, together with the Central Asian states where the Soviet legacy lingers on, has some of the lowest values for support of hardcore Islamist views…whereas in Egypt every second Muslim is basically an Islamist who supports positions like “apply Sharia even to non-Muslims” (source is a Pew poll about values in the Islamic world, Karlin did a post about it 2 or 3 years ago). Turks are probably the best Muslims one can get. Arabs, Pakistanis, Somalis etc. are bound to be a lot worse (as Britain and France amply demonstrate).

    • Replies: @iffen
    , @Talha
    , @Swedish Family
  411. DFH says:
    @German_reader

    You’d better prepare for putting minefields on your western border.

    Around all of Europe, God willing

  412. iffen says:
    @German_reader

    successfully discriminated all other faiths, except the Jews, out of existence.

    Not for lack of trying.

    • Replies: @German_reader
  413. @iffen

    Jews actually had a privileged position compared to other non-Christian faiths (which were outright prohibited by the time of Justinian in the 6th century), because they were seen as being witnesses to the truth of Christianity. Of course their legal position was a lot worse though than it had been under the pagan emperors (or even under the Arian Ostrogothic rulers of Italy).

    • Replies: @iffen
    , @utu
  414. @Thorfinnsson

    So where’s the Sovok capital in the US? I can’t decide if its Texas or the Great Plains.

  415. iffen says:
    @German_reader

    Christian behaviour may have impressed some observers

    I’m just relying on Paul Johnson. He seems like he knows his subject and attributes some influence to the spectacle of the martyrs in the 1st century.

    but because Christians captured the machinery of the imperial government

    No doubt.

  416. iffen says:
    @Thorfinnsson

    I think you have a thinking problem if you think patriotards are the same as cucks.

  417. iffen says:
    @German_reader

    Turks are probably the best Muslims one can get.

    Feeling blessed today?

    • Replies: @German_reader
  418. iffen says:
    @German_reader

    I was thinking of the medieval church and later.

  419. @iffen

    I kind of would if we still only had Turks, would be a much better situation than Britain and France.
    Unfortunately Merkel has imported 2 million more Muslims in just a few years, many of whom are the worst kind of immigrant one could imagine.

  420. iffen says:

    I like history, politics, fantasy and dialogue. I especially enjoy dialogue with people that have difficulty distinguishing among the first three.

  421. utu says:
    @German_reader

    who can know for sure if such “unreasonable” behaviour didn’t repel more people than it attracted converts?

    American Indians were impressed with French Jesuits’ conduct under torture so much that they ate them:

    A Huron Indian who escaped Iroquois captivity described how a Jesuit was killed and eaten. The priest had endured great pain before his death, and the Iroquois told the Huron that they drank his blood and ate his flesh so that they could be as strong as the priest had been.

    But some were lead to conversion:

    While some embraced the Christian message of mercy towards their captives, others resented the cultural intrusion and even overcompensated for it when the time came to burn captives. Among the Hurons, Algonquians, and particularly among the Iroquois, we can observe how Christianity did more to divide communities than unite them, and this divide manifested most acutely with the torture of captives. Even in the early seventeenth century, the French struggled to reconcile with the customs they abhorred, particularly when traditional non-combatants such as children became involved. As the seventeenth century progressed, this changed. Catholic priests found torture by fire a useful teaching point about the severity of damnation, Catholic devotion, as well as Christian mercy. They also found a steady stream of converts among the captives their Amerindian allies sent to the flames. Finally, by the late seventeenth and early eighteenth centuries, the French and Amerindians began to combine each others’ customs when captured. When death became imminent, many sang their death song or prayed while walking to the torture platform. Whether French or Amerindian, they often met this death calmly as early Christian martyrs, or brave Algonquian warrior.

  422. Talha says:
    @German_reader

    Whereas Islamic martyrdom is fighting and dying in war.

    We also had the Christian-type of martyrdom in the stage at Makkah when Muslims were taught not to fight back; many of the slaves and people from low-power tribes were tortured, killed or both. Madinah was a different stage.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @German_reader
  423. Talha says:
    @German_reader

    whereas in Egypt every second Muslim is basically an Islamist

    Egypt is ground-zero fro the Salafi interpretation and has some of the most sanguinary and recalcitrant Muslim extremists in the world.

    Peace.

  424. @Talha

    We also had the Christian-type of martyrdom in the stage at Makkah

    Which lasted a few years vs. almost three centuries in the case of Christianity.

    • Replies: @Talha
  425. iffen says:
    @German_reader

    Which isn’t any different imo from what pagans had done for centuries.

    I don’t think that pagans died for their god. They did their rituals and hoped for the best.

  426. utu says:
    @German_reader

    Jews often had autonomy and special protection. Look at the Statute of Kalisz of 1264 in Poland. 26 years before England expelled Jews and remained Judenfrei for 360 years Poland opened up to Jews and gave them unprecedented privileges which were ratified by subsequent monarchs of Poland.

    1. …Should a Jew be taken to court, not just only a Christian must testify against him, but also a Jew, in order for the case to be considered valid.
    2. … If any Christian shall sue a Jew, asserting that he has pawned securities with him, and the Jew denies it, then if the Christian refuses to accept the simple word of the Jew, the Jew by taking oath must be free of the Christian.
    10. … As punishment for killing a Jew, a suitable punishment and confiscation of property is necessary.
    11. … For striking a Jew, the usual punishment in the country shall apply.
    13. … Jews shall not pay for the transport of their dead.
    14. Christian destroying cemetery except normal penalty will lose assets.
    17. …Any Jew may freely and securely walk or ride without any let or hindrance in our realm. They shall pay customary tolls just as other Christians do, and nothing else.
    22. … If any of the Christians rashly and presumptuously jeers at their synagogues, such a Christian shall be required to pay and must pay to our palatine their guardian two talents of pepper as punishment.
    30. … No Christian may summon any Jew into the ecclesiastical court in any way whatsoever, or for whatever property or summons he be summoned, nor shall the Jew make answer before the judge in the ecclesiastical court, but the Jew shall appear before his palatine appointed for that term, and furthermore the aforesaid palatine, along with our governor for that term, shall be required to defend and protect that Jew, and prohibit his responding to the summons of the ecclesiastical court. No Christian is to accuse a Jew of blood libel.

    • Replies: @iffen
  427. Talha says:
    @German_reader

    Correct, which is why we aren’t worried about the continuity of the transmission chains in our tradition because our earliest manuscripts, libraries and scholars weren’t being killed off or burned down by pagans.

    Though certain traveling Sufi shaikhs and preachers did get into this kind of defenseless martyrdom situation later by going into pagan areas and trying to call them to the religion.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @German_reader
  428. @Talha

    I think we had that discussion before, and you couldn’t deny the fact that even the earliest Islamic sources about Mohammed were written down about a century later (iirc the Qoran is already attested in mansucripts from the 7th century AD, but without context hard to interpret). As I understand it, it all comes down to the question how reliable oral traditions are, which is a very controversial issue. So I don’t think you’re on safer ground than Christians.

    • Replies: @Talha
  429. Talha says:
    @German_reader

    As I understand it, it all comes down to the question how reliable oral traditions are

    Correct, since this is the primary method of preservation and transmission with the written form being only a crutch.

    which is a very controversial issue

    Yes, this is the Western position.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @German_reader
  430. @Talha

    I don’t see why you think you’re in a better position than Christians though. At least some of the letters attributed to Paul do seem to be authentic and date probably from the 60s AD. And the gospels and acts of the apostles were probably written down at some point in the later 1st century, that is at a time when even some of the participants in the events described might still have been alive (actually at least some elements of the gospels, like the expectation that the end of the world is near, wouldn’t have made sense at a later point).

    • Replies: @iffen
    , @Talha
  431. iffen says:
    @German_reader

    Talha knows someone who knows someone who knew someone who knew someone, etc., etc.

  432. Epigon says:
    @neutral

    Everyone who had anything to do with government procurement and especially, military contracts. Not to mention the fact that NSDAP basically formed a coalition with big business and old military aristocracy during their rise to power.

    MAN and Porsche tank designs were atrocious, yet entered production. Messerschmitt two-engine heavy fighters were a joke. Ju-88 had zero advantages compared to Do-17 and He-111 in case they were outfitted with it’s newer, more modern engines, yet the whole Luftwaffe bombing strategy and long-term planning rested upon Ju-88 being an excellent plane.

    I strongly recommend reading the following book, there are some mistakes and misconceptions due to author being an economist and not really versed in actual military tactics and combat efficiency, but overall, the book is a gem.

    https://archive.org/details/ToozeAdamTheWagesOfDestructionTheMakingAndBreakingOfTheNaziEconomy

  433. Epigon says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    In all honesty, this doesn’t look like an actual restaurant serving first-class meals.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
  434. @Epigon

    It doesn’t look worse than the Ze Kitchen Galerie in Paris, which is perhaps the best restaurant (in terms of food, anyway) I’ve ever eaten in. Though I like Ze Kitchen’s style better.

    • Replies: @utu
  435. utu says:
    @reiner Tor

    Ze Kitchen in Paris? I am worrying about the French.

    Epigon is kind of tight. The place has Cafe in its name after all.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
  436. @utu

    I don’t know where the name comes from, but my first guess would be that “Ze” is a joke on the French pronunciation of the English definite article. They pronounce the whole thing in a pretty French way (something like “Ze Keeshen Zhalerie” with a very French r), but it doesn’t matter. The word bistro might have Russian origin, after all.

    • Replies: @utu
  437. Today is the Day of German unity, the only vaguely positive national holiday Germany has.
    Various migrant lobbies (the Turkish community in Germany, the Iranian community, the initiative of black people in Germany, the association of German-Syrian aid groups) have complained that the celebrations (as if there are any…) are too much from a “purely white perspective” (yes, they have adopted US-style race discourse) and have suggested there should also be a “day of diversity” on October 3, to celebrate immigration.
    What a bad joke this country has become, would be better to burn it all down.

    • Replies: @Epigon
    , @Hyperborean
  438. Epigon says:
    @German_reader

    What a bad joke this country has become, would be better to burn it all down.

    Balkan people: NOOOOOOOOOO!

    The minorities would be a non-issue if the ethnic Germans themselves could be healed from mind poison and social relativism.

    • Replies: @German_reader
  439. @German_reader

    What about the 9th of November? Is it treated as an opportunity to shame Germans or just ignored?

    • Replies: @German_reader
  440. @Hyperborean

    iirc there was some debate around 1990 whether it should become national holiday, since it would reference both the good (1918 revolution, fall of the wall in 1989) and bad (Hitler’s 1923 coup attempt, the 1938 pogroms) aspects of German 20th century history. That wasn’t adopted though, and imo would have been really weird (iirc some representative of the central council of Jews in Germany actually made the not unreasonable argument that a semi-positive holiday on the day of the pogroms would be inappropriate).
    Something that has been memory-holed almost completely is June 17, which was the Day of German unity in the federal republic from 1954-1990 (to commemorate the rising of workers in East Berlin, which produced those iconic scenes where they’re throwing stones at commie tanks). Instead some private initiative, led by sociologist Harald Welzer, asked people to celebrate June 17 in 2017 as Day of the open society (which was of course meant as support for Merkel’s mass migration policy). I don’t think they chose that date accidentally, imo it was meant to emphasize the project of national decomposition.

  441. @Epigon

    Given the situation Merkel has created, I don’t think that’s true anymore. One way or the other it will end very badly. Once the great economic crisis hits, things are bound to escalate.

  442. utu says:
    @reiner Tor

    Anthony Bourdain few years ago complained that it was hard to find a good old fashioned bistro in Paris and that the disease of hipsterism was spreading in France.

    Last time I was there which was about 10 years ago I did not see reason to complain yet. Americanization by hipsterism was not evident yet.

    Bistro does not have Russian origin. A name perhaps. Bistro is 100% French institution.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    , @AP
  443. @utu

    Bistro does not have Russian origin. A name perhaps.

    Yes, the name. Weren’t you complaining about the name of Ze Kitchen Galerie? Anyway I think it’s a good restaurant, and reasonably priced for haute cuisine, something like €100 for a full menu with wine pairings. But the tables are very small, and you’re seated close to the others, so it’s not very comfortable to talk or spend your time. The food is excellent anyway, obviously you won’t be going there frequently even if you live in Paris.

    But maybe it’s not even worth to go to visit a restaurant like this in Paris anyway, there are haute cuisine places all over the world (and maybe Germany now has more than France). The good thing in Paris is the smaller restaurant with a French-only menu and a waiter-owner who refuses to speak in English, but takes your order if you show him on the menu or try to talk French, and then gives you the food as if he was forced to do so but visibly displeased with your presence. But the food is really good, because they are incapable of making bad food. And it’s cheap, because it’s for the locals.

    Of course now the waiters at most places speak English and are no longer annoyed by your presence, either because they are Arabs, or because they are French but they recognize you to be a fellow white person. What’s best, usually the food is still good.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    , @utu
  444. @reiner Tor

    I’m actually the owner of the restaurant. I made over 7,000 comments with nearly 700,000 words at this site, only so that I could make a well placed advertisement disguised as a comment here.

  445. AP says:
    @utu

    According to urban legend the name bistro arose when Russian troops during the occupation of Paris after Napoleon’s defeat kept telling restaurant owners to hurry up.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    , @utu
  446. Dmitry says:

    What I’m surprised still hasn’t become so fashionable or saturated America yet, is Georgian cuisine.

    I would have expected it to achieve lift-off in America already, in the 1990s, following Georgian emigration to America.

    If a Georgian startup version created of Taco Bell (which sells Mexican cuisine) – it could probably have achieve crazy potential in America.

  447. @AP

    I’m not sure if it’s urban legend, I think it’s merely unproven. So it might or might not be true.

  448. utu says:
    @reiner Tor

    You got it right. My exact experience but I did not mind it too much and when I tried to speak some French everything always changed for the better. The first opening sentence always should be in French apologizing that you do not speak French and then asking if they would mind if you spoke English.

    I have checked out your restaurant here: http://www.zekitchengalerie.fr. It is better than what the name suggested.

    They are haute but nouvelle not classique with Californian fusion look, I think. BTW, good restaurants are a commonplace in California (along the coast). When in France I rather look for classique. Perhaps because I am nostalgic for the greatness of France and when I see the encroaching Americanization I am kind of sad. That’s probably why I am forgiving of their bad humors, impoliteness and arrogance.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
  449. utu says:
    @AP

    The etymology is unclear, and is presumed to come from a regional word: bistro, bistrot, bistingo, bistraud, bistouille or bistrouille. The first recorded use of the word appears in 1884.[2] A popular folk etymology of the word claims that it originated among Russian troops who occupied Paris following the Napoleonic Wars (from быстро, “quickly”). This etymology has been generally discredited due to its manifest illogic, and to the 69 year gap between the proposed origin and the first attestation. (Wiki)

    Folk etymologies are seductive but easy to spot because they are too neat and too clever however they have staying power. Partly because it gives people a sense of erudition.

  450. @utu

    You’re correct, it’s a bit of a fusion kitchen, though I think usually they have two menus, one of which is more Asian influenced and the other one less so.

    Regarding trying to speak French, some 10-15 years ago they gave me the looks anyway. But maybe in 2014 I went to a restaurant where the menu was in French only, and all the patrons were locals, but the waiter (also I think owner) could speak good enough English, and was obviously happy that even a tourist would visit his lowly restaurant. The restaurant had zero presence on the internet, but the food was really good, traditional French food. But a day before I visited a restaurant where the waiter (perhaps also owner?) was extremely annoyed by my presence. The confit de canard was excellent, of course. (It can be bad, just try it in a mediocre Budapest restaurant. Good Budapest restaurants, of course, either don’t have it or make it well, too.)

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
  451. @German_reader

    Why would Turks be especially difficult to assimilate (apart from their nutcase nationalism)? Turkey is a very flawed country, but traditionally it has been at least somewhat westernized.

    Yes, but I was thinking of immigrants in general. It may be that Islam puts a brake on assimilation in a way Christianity doesn’t or that Turkish culture is such that they keep to their own more than other immigrant groups, in which case the statement may still hold up reasonably well, only not for Turks. This should be easy enough to look into since Sweden and Germany both imported labor from Turkey and Greece in the post-war decades. A quick search doesn’t turn up any Swedish data, but the standard line in policy discussions is that all immigrant groups who arrived before the 1980s assimilated well, which fits my personal experience.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
  452. @Swedish Family

    all immigrant groups who arrived before the 1980s assimilated well

    They were both small and reasonably white, probably. Only small self-selected groups from other parts of the world were able to immigrate back then.

    • Replies: @Swedish Family
  453. @reiner Tor

    I’m just thinking that probably the improved English skills of French waiters made them politer with me. I think some 15 years ago they mistook me for an American or perhaps Briton, whereas now they instantly recognize that I’m speaking English with an accent, so that I cannot be a native speaker. That somehow improves my standing.

    That’s just a hypothesis, I have no way of corroborating or disproving it.

    • Replies: @iffen
  454. Talha says:
    @German_reader

    Well, I’m not really up for debating the issue since it really comes down to what one has more confidence in. It has been a while since I have read up on the Christian side of things (or listened to Muslim/Christian debates on the matter), but this is what I recall…

    The earliest documents of Christian New Testament are literally small fragments from around the 2nd century; stuff like p49 and p52 being some of the earliest. I’d love to have someone point out dated manuscripts/fragments earlier than that. There are canonical books and portions (like Mark, Hebrews and others) for which nobody knows who the author is. Then you have issues like the very early splinter Churches like the Nestorian (also called Church of the East) that have their own version of the Bible with additions or retractions:

    https://www.britannica.com/topic/Peshitta

    This is not even covering whether or not the words of Jesus (pbuh) are even accurate in translation into a language that there is little evidence for that he even spoke.

    This may be fine for others, but this wouldn’t even meet the minimum criteria for inclusion into even our weakest hadith collections. We would need to know who the transmitter was and the chain of transmission down the line (and where, if any, links are missing), plus biographical information about each individual person so that they could be evaluated for uprightness, reliable memory, etc.

    As far as the Qur’an, even to this day, when you learn just simply to recite it according to the official rules and get your ijazah (which means permission), you join a sanad (chain) that traces back from your teacher, to their teacher, to their’s all the way back to the Prophet (pbuh):

    The variant pronunciations are also preserved and documented. The govt. of Jordan has done a great job of electronically indexing all the variant readings and the chain of transmission they belong to:

    https://www.altafsir.com/Recitations.asp?img=A

    So, I recite according to the variant from Imam Hafs (ra) – and the chain he learned – which is in the dialect of Bani Tamim. Others (mostly North Africans) recite according to Imam Warsh (ra) which is closest to the dialect of the Quraysh.
    “For instance, in the back of a Warsh Qur’an, you are likely to find ‘the riwaya of Imam Warsh from Nafi’ al-Madini from Abu Ja’far Yazid ibn al-Qa’qa’ from ‘Abdullah ibn ‘Abbas from Ubayy ibn Ka’b from the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, from Jibril, peace be upon him, from the Creator.’”

    http://www.iium.edu.my/deed/articles/qiraat.html

    I know of a teacher in the Western area of Illinois that only grants certificates of memorization to students who can recite the Qur’an in one sitting and less than 5 mistakes. This goes on to this day.

    People are free, of course, to pin their confidence on whichever method they feel is more reliable.

    I’d like you to imagine, if you will, an alternate history where the early Christians weren’t kicked around and had to transmit teachings in secret, had their scholars killed off, their books burnt, etc. Where, after Jesus (pbuh) passed away, his immediate followers were in charge of Judea and Samaria and were on the offensive; beating down both the Persians and pagan Romans. Someone like James the Just was in charge of this increasing empire and had scribes (led by Peter) write down the exact record of what had just happened just 30 years prior and with sign-off from all other Twelve Apostles and a mandate that this is what each region of the expanding empire would use as their official Bible. Imagine that, and you have a rough analogy of the development and canonization of the Uthmani Codex.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @DFH
  455. Ron Unz says:
    @utu

    Your Islamophobia, the only phobia that you allow yourself to harbor, might be a manifestation of your repressed Anti-Semitism.

    Yes, that certainly sounds right. I know that a couple of months ago, our “German_reader” friend reacted with utter horror to a somewhat more balanced history of World War II, so that his deep internal unhappiness probably manifests itself as hostility toward Muslims, who are obviously the ones responsible for inflicting so much death and misery upon the German people over the last 100 years.

    A very similar situation, though sometimes with different targets, is found among American “cuckservatives”…

    • LOL: iffen
  456. DFH says:
    @Talha

    I know of a teacher in the Western area of Illinois that only grants certificates of memorization to students who can recite the Qur’an in one sitting and less than 5 mistakes. This goes on to this day.

    wtf are there even Muslims in Illinois, is there anywhere that’s not filled with xenos

  457. Talha says:
    @DFH

    Illinois has a bunch of Muslims and is probably one of the more advanced areas as far as Islamic scholarship and institutions. The only other places in the Western Hemisphere that can rival Chicago Shareef (“the honored”) as some Muslims around traditional circles call it are; Toronto, maybe parts of New York and certain parts of Texas that are upcoming.

    Peace.

  458. @reiner Tor

    They were both small and reasonably white, probably. Only small self-selected groups from other parts of the world were able to immigrate back then.

    Yes, besides Greeks and Turks, we also took in Italians and Yugoslavs for labor. Other immigrants included a mix of political and economic immigrants from Hungary (after 1957), Czechia (after 1968), Chile (after 1973), and Poland (early 80s, I think).

    And their numbers were indeed tiny. Most of these groups numbered in the low tens of thousands and were dwarfed by the large group of Scandinavian immigrants (Finns alone numbered about 200,000 people).

  459. iffen says:
    @reiner Tor

    they mistook me for an American

    Oh, the horror.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
  460. @iffen

    Not very good since they probably dislike them. It’s never good to be mistaken for member of a disliked group.

    I never had problems with, say, Swiss or Germans mistaking me for an Englishman (has happened a few times) or an American, since they don’t hate those.

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
  461. @DFH

    Agribusiness. Lately the work has gotten so bad that Mexicans and even sub-Mexicans (e.g. Squatemalans) are refusing to do it, so they’ve started importing Mohammedans.

    New England (other than Mass and CT), Upper Midwest (aside from Milwaukee, Detroit, and the Twin Cities), North Dakota, Montana, and Wyoming are still mostly free of xenos. Not necessarily all-white owing to American Indians (especially in Montana), but they mostly stay on their Reservations and in any case speak good English and wave the stars and stripes with pride.

    Rural areas where the land isn’t any good remain about as white as they were fifty years ago aside from the odd Asian wife (generally the product of the US military) or adopted negro (a fad which caught on with Evangelicals this century–as if liberals will accept them now).

    If one is location independent and fleeing avoiding diversity is your top priority then I recommend settling in Maine or Montana as the scenery is better. Wyoming if low taxes are a priority (no state income tax). Maine and Montana are also quite poor by American standards and have relatively little agribusiness so the vibrants won’t be arriving anytime soon.

    Many Montanans sport a bumper sticker which shows the outline of the Treasure State with the words GET OUT inside the borders. Nice touch.

  462. @DFH

    There are about 450k. A friend of mine makes a lot of money as a wedding photographer for South Asian weddings. He gets quite a lot of business in Texas too where the Muslim population is close to 480k.

  463. @reiner Tor

    Better to be an American in France than an Englishman. The French have a bone to pick with Anglos of all stripes, but reserve special enmity for the English.

    As an American you might get some quips about McDonald’s and Walmart–big deal.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    , @DFH
    , @utu
  464. @Thorfinnsson

    I think they mistook me for an American. I don’t know for sure. So yes, it’s possible they thought I was English. I didn’t know they hated the English so much, so I my natural thought was that they mistook me for an American. But I think I mentioned the possibility in my original comment, too.

  465. Here is an interesting statistic I found on the internet: Russian LNG exports to European Union topped exports from the US so far in 2018.

    Funny how there is a certain media narrative of a “Russian energy stranglehold” being threatened by American LNG, and then there is the reality of American gas being totally uncompetitive and unwanted in Europe.

    • Replies: @iffen
  466. iffen says:
    @Felix Keverich

    Well, duh, it takes a while to convert import facilities to export facilities.

  467. DFH says:
    @Thorfinnsson

    I’ve never met a French person who genuinely disliked England or English people, in contrast I have met many such Spaniards and even some Germans who do.

  468. @DFH

    even some Germans

    That’s hardly surprising given how anti-German public discourse in Britain often is.
    I suppose Spaniards are sore about Gibraltar.

  469. Matra says:
    @DFH

    The French have a reputation for being both anti-American and anti-English. In reality, they are just grumpy with everybody, including their fellow French. As long as one adheres to their standards of etiquette, which people from more informal Anglo cultures often fail to do, the French are fine.

    I keep reading and hearing that Spaniards, particularly Madrileños, are the least friendly to foreign visitors, but I haven’t been there yet to find out.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  470. @DFH

    I heard anti-English sentiments almost immediately after arriving in France both times I’ve been there. To be fair, I specifically asked since bigotry is one of my favorite things in the world. Germans on the other hand are respected.

    Germans in my extended family don’t have any Anglophobic sentiments, though it does seem to be common in German elites (e.g. Wolfgang “Britain must be punished!” Schauble). There is some arrogance about the failure of British industry to successfully compete since the war (suppose you could get them back by making fun of the truly hapless Deutsche Bank).

    I assume Anglophobic sentiment in Spain comes from the inability of English holidayers to drink responsibly (at least as far as Nigel and Sheila go). But they’re a second-rate nationality with a third-rate economy and a fourth-rate government anyway so who cares.

    • Replies: @German_reader
    , @DFH
    , @Dmitry
  471. @Thorfinnsson

    I assume Anglophobic sentiment in Spain

    Franco was somewhat Anglophobic (at least before 1945), as were other Spanish nationalists who blamed Britain for Spain’s loss of great power status and regarded British possession of Gibraltar as a national humiliation. It was an important factor for Franco’s desire to join the war on the German side (so not just motivated by anti-Bolshevism).
    Maybe some of that lingers on.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    , @Anon
  472. Dmitry says:
    @German_reader

    I don’t know if Spanish anglophobia is so strong. The UK is one of their favourite emigration destination.

    However, it is true, Spain is flooded with millions of proletarian English tourists, every year.

    This would create a bad impression of English people, in any country.

    Turkey has the same situation, with Russian tourists.

    By comparison, tourism with higher proportion of educated people, is not creating negative impressions. American tourists in Spain, by comparison, seem more middle class, university students.

  473. Matra says:

    I’m familiar with opinion polls on anti-Americanism going back to the early 90s. Spain, Greece, and Ireland are consistently the most anti-American, with the Germans and Belgians occasionally getting in there. In recent years I’ve noticed Spanish public opinion is also consistently among the most hostile to Russia as well. And I guess they don’t the British or their difficult French neighbours either. The anti-Russian sentiment is the strange one here given the distance to and lack of historical conflicts with Russia.

  474. utu says:
    @Thorfinnsson

    Better to be an American in France than an Englishman.

    In Quebec it’s better to be American than Anglo from Ontario. Actually they are pretty friendly.

  475. Dmitry says:
    @Matra

    I don’t think it’s true at all – Spanish in my experience, are almost always very friendly and responsive, especially if you can speak some Spanish language.

    Maybe in Madrid, it’s less friendly than in Seville. And in Basque country, more introverted people than in Granada. But overall level of friendliness in Spain, including to foreigners – a lot above average.
    /
    -
    What about Germany?

    Although with limited experience of Germany – I also found Germans are friendly with tourists? (Against stereotypes).

  476. DFH says:
    @Thorfinnsson

    Germans on the other hand are respected.

    Lol, the national psychology of a battered wife.

    To be fair, the French people I know are 90% living in London and 50% au-pairs, so it’s not really representative. What complaints did the ones you spoke with make? What do they even have to be anti-English about?

    I assume Anglophobic sentiment in Spain comes from the inability of English holidayers to drink responsibly (at least as far as Nigel and Sheila go).

    Funnily enough, they never seem too bothered by that, even the ones from affected regions. Perhaps because it is extremely localised to certain towns, which are anyway entirely dependent upon foreign (mostly British and German) tourists. I have heard more classic Anglophobia about English being pirates and the British empire etc. On the other hand, when I was last there a Spanish nationalist talked to me about how much he respected Britain leaving the EU because of the Catalonia issue and he admired how nationalistic British people were (if only).

    Germans in my extended family don’t have any Anglophobic sentiments, though it does seem to be common in German elites

    German anglophobes I’ve heard mostly have extremely gay complaints about Britain being too anti-European or about the British empire.

    Another thing I have noticed is that Spanish and Italians, even otherwise intelligent and educated ones, have a naive and cringeworthy admiration for the worst of American culture, like the Big Bang Theory or Hollywood rubbish, that equivalent British people would never have (or at least, confess to).

  477. @DFH

    Lol, the national psychology of a battered wife

    Nah, they know that Germans are dumb and gullible enough to believe in Franco-German friendship and always do what the French want in the end. It’s a very one-sided relationship, there are tons of German Francophiles (e.g. a classic type is the schoolteacher who goes on vacation in France and is ardently pro-”Europe”). I don’t think the reverse exists in France.

    What do they even have to be anti-English about?

    Some older right-wingers might still be pissed about Mers-el-Kebir. I guess for most that’s ancient history though.

    • Replies: @Mitleser
  478. Dmitry says:
    @Thorfinnsson

    . But they’re a second-rate nationality with a third-rate economy and a

    I don’t condone Spain. But it is far more civilized in some, strange ways, than other countries even of the West.

    If you just compare average street life of significant cities in Spain, to Northern European countries’ equivalent city, let alone equivalent American or Russian cities – Spanish cities are usually with a much more civilized impression and lifestyle.

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    , @Philip Owen
  479. @DFH

    The French Anglophobia I encountered was emotional and did not have much in the way of reasoning behind it in general, though there were complaints about Englishmen who live in the South of France for decades but fail to learn French (seems like a reasonable complaint).

    Most Frenchmen are pro-EU (Marine was stupid to run against it) and thus are salty about BREXIT.

    An older man said Britain betrayed them during the war.

    I’d say the most common loaded terms I heard were “selfish” and “hypocritical”.

    And yes, presumably Frenchmen who graduated from grande ecoles and draw lucrative salaries in London are not very representative.

    The “Boche” is respected for his efficiency, diligence, and courage. There’s some respect for German bread as well (croissants are actually Viennese). And as German_reader pointed, the “Franco-German” motor is mostly about Germany doing France’s bidding.

    Though it sometimes blows up in France’s face as with the Euro. Mitterand consider the Deutsche Mark to be “Germany’s atom bomb” and extracted a promise from the Germans to commit to a single European currency as the price of agreeing to German reunification. This “victory” has crippled France’s economy.

    Our fellow Anglos are less susceptible to our poisonous media exports since there’s nothing particularly magical about the English language to them. Americans however are embarrassingly easy to seduce or impress with English (RP) or Australian accents.

  480. @anonymous coward

    I have well off Russian friends who run their hobby farms as visiting centres for Moscovites to dress up in peasant clothes and cut wheat Tolstoy style. The one sells home made hard cheese in street markets in Moscow. These friends still go to restaurants. They even take priests with them, presumably to show they are not gay? Do you have insecurities about being gay? More than a few excessively macho Russians seem that way.

  481. @Dmitry

    This “street life” you admire stems from the natural indolence and lethargy of the Eternal Med. Meds are notoriously workshy people with a constitutional inability to work. So they endlessly idle away their days in a vast sea of mediocre cafes staffed by rude and indifferent personnel.

    • Replies: @AaronB
  482. Mitleser says:
    @German_reader

    It’s a very one-sided relationship

    An example from the current year.

    As a first confidence-building measure, Macron suggested that France and Germany renew the Treaty on German-French Cooperation, signed on January 22, 1963, by Konrad Adenauer and Charles de Gaulle, also known as the Elysée Treaty or (particularly in Germany) the FrenchGerman Friendship Treaty. This was enthusiastically received in Germany for its ceremonial and sentimental value. To fill the gap during the Merkel interregnum, the Bundestag staged a celebration of the Treaty’s fifty-fifth (!) anniversary in January 2018, with a speech by the president of the Assemblée nationale given, in flawless German, to a full house. Later that same day, a delegation of Bundestag members attended a parallel session in Paris, where Wolfgang Schäuble spoke as the Bundestag’s newly elected president. This time, however, the auditorium was almost empty, something the German media hid as best they could.

    https://americanaffairsjournal.org/2018/05/europe-under-merkel-iv-balance-of-impotence/

    Later in France, only a quarter of the French parliament (577 seats) bothered to attend the session.

    French lawmakers then voted 133-12, with two abstentions, to approve the resolution passed by their German counterparts earlier.

    https://www.foxnews.com/world/germany-france-pass-resolution-for-new-friendship-treaty

  483. I personally found French people (waiters and otherwise) nice enough, although the language barrier made it hard to ask complex questions.

    But then again, people who have visited Sweden often tell me that Swedes come off as very frigid. Maybe you have to be used to it?

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
  484. @Hyperborean

    Swedes are frigid until they get hammered.

    • Replies: @Talha
  485. Talha says:
    @Thorfinnsson

    Weird, when I visited Sweden with my wife, Swedes were very friendly. It may be because it was summertime and they were all in a good mood.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @iffen
    , @Swedish Family
  486. @DFH

    the national psychology of a battered wife.

    The French exacted revenge from the Germans each time they were beaten by them, so why should they be considered a battered wife?

    What do they even have to be anti-English about?

    I’m not French, nor do I know what they complain about, but I know that the English often disparage the French as “surrender monkeys” (and the same is often true of the Americans), which is based on the 1940 Battle of France. Now I’m aware that the British forces (including the BEF in 1940) for a long time didn’t perform any better than the French military. In fact, at Dunkirk the French surrender monkeys cowardly covered the retreat while the British heroes heroically fled back to their island.

    Now if the British view the French with disdain then why do they expect the French to like them?

    • Replies: @German_reader
  487. iffen says:
    @Talha

    Weird, when I visited Sweden with my wife, Swedes were very friendly.

    If Swedes are as pozzed as some claim then you were likely the beneficiaries of the willful encouragement and beautification of “mixed” couples.

    • Replies: @Talha
  488. @reiner Tor

    which is based on the 1940 Battle of France

    There was bad blood between at least some French and the British even at the time. My English grandfather was in France (Cotentin peninsula iirc) in 1940, after Dunkirk and only for a very short time…I don’t know many details (he died in 1992 and I didn’t know him well), but I know he did have a dismissive attitude towards the French. There were tense relations between his unit and French peasants in the area (which led him to statements like “They’ve got two cows and call it a farm”). He also had the negative view of the French surrender (“They ran away when they saw a Boche helmet”), unfair as that undoubtedly was.
    “Surrender monkeys” is pretty crass though, I think that’s an American import and was first coined around the time of the Iraq war in 2003.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
  489. utu says:

    The French hate or contempt for English is much weaker if any than English for the French. The French are astounded by the level of anti French feelings occasionally expressed in the British tabloid press. They have nothing comparable in France. They can’t imagine that the level of verbal abuse be as intense and vile. It simply does not exist in French. Their reaction is that of an adult confronted with a tantrums of a child. They do not reciprocate. They hope it will go away that it is temporary and the child will eventually grow up. But the child has stunted development and does not seem to be growing up.

  490. utu says:

    The clash of American and French ideal (Adam Gopnik)

    https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/1997/08/04/trouble-at-the-tower

    Americans long for a closed society in which everything can be bought, where laborers are either hidden away or dressed up as non-humans, so as not to be disconcerting. This place is called Disneyworld. The French dream of a place where everyone can practice his metier in self-enclosed perfection, with the people to be served only on sufferance, as extras, to be knocked down the minute they act up. This place, come to think of it, is called Paris in July.

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
  491. @utu

    There is something delightfully ironic about someone named Gopnik writing for The New Yorker.

  492. @German_reader

    “Surrender monkeys” is pretty crass though, I think that’s an American import and was first coined around the time of the Iraq war in 2003.

    The term itself, possibly. But the thinking behind it has always been there, I think. Here’s a recent British example (by John Cleese):

    “The French government announced yesterday that it has raised its terror alert level from “Run” to “Hide.” The only two higher levels in France are “Collaborate” and “Surrender.” The rise was precipitated by a recent fire that destroyed France ‘s white flag factory, effectively paralyzing the country’s military capability.”

    http://danariely.com/2015/07/05/alerts-to-threats-in-europe-by-john-cleese/

    • Replies: @German_reader
  493. @reiner Tor

    That’s really primitive, makes me like John Cleese much less.
    I don’t have the most positive view of France, but the accusation of cowardice in 1940 is pretty unfair, it was a huge battle with tens of thousands of casualties.

    • Replies: @DFH
    , @reiner Tor
  494. @Talha

    Weird, when I visited Sweden with my wife, Swedes were very friendly. It may be because it was summertime and they were all in a good mood.

    Peace.

    The cliché is that Swedes become outgoing and “continental” in summer, and there is some truth to this.

    Still, Thorfinnsson is right. Surveys among expats consistently rank Sweden near the bottom on various measures of hospitality, and I think expats have a truer idea of what Swedes are really like than people who drop by for a short stay. Here are the results of this year’s Expat Insider survey:

    https://www.internations.org/expat-insider/2018/ease-of-settling-in-index-39588

    As you can see, Sweden keeps quite the company down there at the bottom. Only Kuwait and Saudi Arabia have us beaten in unfriendliness. :D

    • Replies: @DFH
  495. Talha says:

    expats have a truer idea of what Swedes are really like than people who drop by for a short stay

    Well, can’t disagree with you there, obviously expats would be much more familiar with the details. Tourists and visitors are, of course, a revenue stream for local businesses so maybe that has something to do with being friendly also – though I don’t like to be cynical about people’s motivations. I’ve had talks with my mother-in-law who loves visiting Sweden, but doesn’t want to move out of her home in the US.

    Only Kuwait and Saudi Arabia have us beaten in unfriendliness.

    LOL! That’s pretty crazy! Wow!

    Peace.

  496. DFH says:
    @German_reader

    but the accusation of cowardice in 1940 is pretty unfair, it was a huge battle with tens of thousands of casualties.

    It is a while since I have read Alistair Horne’s book about it (he is English of course, but by no means anti-French), but iirc the French soldiers performed very poorly in the crucial battles of Fall Gelb like Sedan, including running away from their anti-tank positions (which Polish soldiers had not done the year before).

    Also I should say that I have not personally heard the accusation of cowardice very often from acquaintances. I have heard far more often that they believe they liberated France themselves (I cannot say whether it is actually true) and that DeGaulle was ungrateful and even resented the British/Americans for having liberated his country (which I believe is and accurate description of his attitude).

    The closest thing to actual anti-French sentiment I have heard is usually connected to the EU, but also that the French are responsible for left-wing cultural and political ideas (which I think is true, although obviously Jews are far more overrepresented and/or pretentious nonsense like Postmodernism or Derrida.

    • Replies: @German_reader
    , @reiner Tor
  497. DFH says:
    @Swedish Family

    Why is Bahrain at the top and Saudi Arabia at the bottom for friendliness?

  498. @DFH

    iirc the only book I’ve ever read about France in 1940 was Marc Bloch’s The strange defeat, so I can’t really comment on the military aspects too much. Reiner tor is probably more qualified for that.

    DeGaulle was ungrateful and even resented the British/Americans for having liberated his country

    If “gratitude” means perpetual subordination to US interests, as it clearly does today, he was right to reject it.
    Regarding French intellectual culture, sure, a lot of that is very subversive. On the other hand, at least there does seem to be a genuinely militant right in France.

    • Replies: @DFH
  499. @DFH

    French soldiers performed very poorly in the crucial battles of Fall Gelb like Sedan, including running away from their anti-tank positions (which Polish soldiers had not done the year before).

    Obviously the element of surprise was much greater in May 1940 than in September 1939. The Poles also never had a chance, while for the French their poor performance in the first week of the fighting was crucial. Not that any army would’ve had a chance against the German onslaught. No one, not even most German generals understood the possibilities of mobile warfare and how decisive the offensive could be in a few days.

    Meanwhile, the British soldiers heroically fled back to their islands, while the French cowards cowardly covered their heroic flight.

    running away from their anti-tank positions

    In May and June 1940 there were instances of German soldiers doing that, during French counter-strokes. I doubt Poles never did it, by the way.

    they believe they liberated France themselves (I cannot say whether it is actually true) and that DeGaulle was ungrateful and even resented the British/Americans for having liberated his country (which I believe is and accurate description of his attitude).

    The French felt that the British were ungrateful for their much greater sacrifice during the Great War. The truth is, both the French and the British (also the Americans) acted out of self-interest in both world wars, so there was nothing to be grateful for on either side. It’s not a rational complaint.

    Anyway, the British/American bitching about ungratefulness (while showing disdain for the French) is not much justified.

  500. @German_reader

    Also what he wrote about the British:

    “The English are feeling the pinch in relation to recent events in Syria and have therefore raised their security level from “Miffed” to “Peeved.” Soon, though, security levels may be raised yet again to “Irritated” or even “A Bit Cross.” The English have not been “A Bit Cross” since the blitz in 1940 when tea supplies nearly ran out. Terrorists have been re-categorized from “Tiresome” to “A Bloody Nuisance.” The last time the British issued a “Bloody Nuisance” warning level was in 1588, when threatened by the Spanish Armada.”

    So he’s joking about the English being so stoical, and the French being cowards. He could’ve crowned that with bitching about why the French are so ungrateful.

    • Replies: @German_reader
  501. @reiner Tor

    One probably has to take into account how old John Cleese is (born in 1939)…sounds very dated, like from a different world. Stoicism (in a positive sense, as opposed to mere indifference) isn’t exactly what I would associate with Britain today.

  502. DFH says:
    @German_reader

    If “gratitude” means perpetual subordination to US interests, as it clearly does today, he was right to reject it.

    It is in particular that he stopped Macmillan’s government from having Britain join the EEC.

    • Replies: @German_reader
  503. @DFH

    But you’re leaving now anyway, so that’s an odd complaint.
    Anyway, I’m not going to spend much effort to defend France or DeGaulle who has been dead for half a century. I just don’t see the point in endlessly going on about WW2 issues, given our contemporary problems.

    • Replies: @iffen
  504. iffen says:
    @German_reader

    I just don’t see the point in endlessly going on about WW2 issues, given our contemporary problems.

    This is an odd comment considering that he past is what is controlling us now.

    • Replies: @German_reader
  505. @iffen

    The past is past and can’t be changed. And it’s not like it has an independent existence beyond the thought processes of people alive now, so I don’t see how it can “control” us.

    • Replies: @iffen
  506. iffen says:
    @German_reader

    William Faulkner:

    “The past is never dead. It’s not even past.”

    GR:

    it’s not like it has an independent existence beyond the thought processes of people alive now

  507. Anon[411] • Disclaimer says:
    @Talha

    I’ve been away for a while and after the long weekend I’ll probably go away again, and there are certainly a few Catholics on UR, and most of them (Twinkie, Rosamond Vincy, etc.) are probably better informed and more knowledgeable than I am, but as they don’t seem to have read or replied to this post, and I have, there are a few things I might like to mention.

    First (and most importantly), Talha, way back when I mentioned that your local bishop, Blase Cardinal Cupich, and his office or palace, are probably good resources for learning or inquiry about the Faith. I’m not going to revoke that but I am going to qualify it. I live on the Northeast coast and the only knowledge I have of the Cardinal Archbishop is third-hand. It has lately come to my attention that he has said some things which I view as inane and ill-advised, but bishops hardly have a monopoly on that, and it doesn’t alter the fact that for basic Catholic doctrine, the kind of stuff one would want to know being a novice to the Faith, and for help in the rather unlikely scenario that you should want to convert, the diocese and your local parish are probably good places to go.

    Anyway with respect to Christian-Muslim cooperation, which is what I think you are talking about, one must separate political cooperation from spiritual. Politically (though I’m not all that politically active) I’m quite ready to cooperate with any Muslims who want to, even though I doubt that matters much where I am because, first, Muslims are a tiny fraction of the population, and, second, they, as a group, generally tend towards the Left in US politics. Spiritually, ecumenism is not a bad thing, but it must be rather limited. As with other Protestant groups dialogue is okay, even some sort of shared prayer if done carefully, but no silly concelebration stuff. And of course social cooperation is okay, it’s not like Catholic hospitals are going to turn away Muslims or anything.

    With respect to persecution, it must be recognized that persecution is actually generally pretty effective from a worldly point of view. (From our point of view it cannot weaken the Church– what are numbers to God?) This is why England is Anglican and Japan is largely not Christian. The Roman Empire was pretty exceptional, for a number of reasons, some of which I’ll probably miss.

    First, the Roman populace as a whole didn’t really hate Christianity or Christians. They didn’t like them, they made fun of them, they made up scurrilous stories about them, and they thought they might possibly be disloyal, but these were not by any means really deep or universal feelings. There were often local magistrates who either refused to execute their orders or executed them haphazardly– in Africa when in the Decian persecution the Christian scriptures were ordered burned, the magistrates would sometimes quite happily burn copies of Livy or heretical tracts, with the connivance of some of the Christians* (“Yes, that copy of Livy’s History is our holy book.”) In general pagans didn’t know that much about Christians and if it was discovered that X was a Christian their reaction may have been along the lines: “Oh, but he seemed such a nice sort of person”. They might happily see such a person tortured, but it was after all a more brutal time. With Muslims (or Prots) this varies. I remember a long time ago on EWTN seeing a Pakistani from a relatively liberal and Westernized family, though quite a religious one. She had that perfect elocution accent that one doesn’t seem to hear on the subcontinent among younger people anymore– her conversion was back in the 60′s when Pakistan was in general more liberal. She said that her mother told her she would much rather her daughter had come home with an illegitimate child, than having been received into the Church. (She was estranged from her family– I don’t remember if that lasted the half-century or so between her conversion and the show, I think she had had some contact with her brother at least).

    *These Christians being accused of disloyalty to the Church had consequences later for the Donatist schism (the Donatists repudiated priests ordained by people ordained by people they called traitors).

    Second, the Roman culture and legal system placed a great deal of emphasis on personal privacy and the inviolability of the family. Unlike in a Christian or Muslim society, nobody cared if you went to the temple, unless you took part in proscribed rites like those of Bacchus. There was really no reason why someone being a Christian might not go entirely unsuspected until informed upon or called upon to sacrifice to the emperor. Whereas in a Christian or Muslim society you get found out pretty much immediately. There’s no sense “Wait, X was a Christian? How shocking, he was such an admirable fellow– maybe that’s why.” In a Muslim family in a Muslim country a convert may well simply be killed by his own relatives– it happens, and I have heard of several survivors of attempts on their lives.

    Thirdly, the Church in Roman society during times of persecution was entirely underground– it was more of a blurry target. There was no visible thing to hit out at when somebody converted, if you could even tell they converted, given that as mentioned before Romans had a considerable respect for privacy.

    A good book on Rome in the time of the persecutions is Wiseman’s Fabiola — it is fiction, not history, and some of the archaeology is out of date, but it gives a lot of what we can discern of the atmosphere of those times.

    These conditions apply less to modern Muslim countries or historical England. In countries like Egypt and the Arab world (or Belfast not too long ago) there is a sort of tribal boundary, with rancor on both sides (though I think concentrated on one), and very few sincere conversions to anything. There are occasionally insincere conversions to Islam, but there are practically no insincere conversions from Islam, because in a Muslim country there are no advantages to that and lots of disadvantages.

    • Replies: @Talha
  508. Anon[411] • Disclaimer says:
    @German_reader

    Franco also had some considerably Anglophile generals, such as Varela, and he was not going to forget that he was flown from the Canaries to Morocco on a British plane*, however much he might dislike the British government, and however much more he might dislike the British policies of the 18th and 19th centuries. Spanish anglophobia has been greatly exaggerated and to the extent it exists probably has more to do with stupid drunk Brits as Thorfinnsson suggests than with Gibraltar or the Carlist wars.

    *At the time he was taking lessons in English. His lessons were cut short, which explains this:

  509. Talha says:
    @Anon

    Thanks for the insightful post. Much appreciated!

    I agree with you on the healthy boundaries of political, spiritual and social cooperation – they seem to be the right combination based on what my teachers have taught me.

    She said that her mother told her she would much rather her daughter had come home with an illegitimate child, than having been received into the Church.

    This makes sense when one evaluates the situation in context of gradations of sin in Islamic doctrine (and I would imagine Christian as well).

    Those were great insights into the environment of Rome.

    there is a sort of tribal boundary, with rancor on both sides

    I would agree here, unfortunately the local Christians are usually on the receiving end of frustrations brought from dealing with the business end of rancor from outside the region. It is a shame that local Christians were marred with the criminal ineptitude of Christians from the West that started the most recent ball rolling with large sections of the Middle East being torn apart.

    There are occasionally insincere conversions to Islam

    That has been long-standing policy; entice the ones sitting on the fence to convert for their own (or their future generations’) good by either worldly or social benefit. I was listening to a shaykh recently mention how the government of Malaysia sometimes deals with those Muslims who are thinking about leaving Islam by helping them out with this or that financial issue.

    because in a Muslim country there are no advantages to that

    As is the reverse in the West and why some of the most sincere Muslims I have ever come across are converts. I can’t think of one that didn’t lose family, friends or job – or even all three.

    Peace.

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