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octopus

Remarkable consistency.

I will be traveling to London as of tomorrow, so poasting will be light for the next 7-10 days.

If my flight takes off – a whole bunch of them have been canceled because the Brits don’t know what to do about snow. Meanwhile, the North Pole is positively balmy, at above freezing, and Arctic sea ice is setting new minimums. I will be happy to endure minor inconveniences for the sake of accelerated Tropical Hyperborea.

Forthcoming articles: A comprehensive survey of Russian science, technology, robotization [pending since late last year]; an analysis of whether Putin and Navalny are nationalists, commissioned long ago by Sputnik & Pogrom, which I really hope I can finish before the Russian elections [spoiler: No, they're not]; the existential risk from limited computational space to run our simulation [done, but needs to be tidied up].

I also hope that I’ll be able to focus on my Russia book in earnest from early April.

***

Featured News

* Mike Johnson: The problems of consciousness: a taxonomy (roadmap to qualia research)

* David Becker: THE NIQ-DATASET V1.3 – A Summary (Part – I)

* spandrell: China doesn’t care about your opinion (informed take on Emperor Xi, from a person who knows China)

* Michael Hippke, John G. Learned – 2018 – Interstellar communication. IX. Message decontamination is impossible

* Glenn Greenwald: A Consensus Emerges: Russia Committed an “Act of War” on Par With Pearl Harbor and 9/11. Should the U.S. Response Be Similar?

* RT: ‘Polocaust museum’: Polish minister calls for commemoration of non-Jewish victims of WWII. Envious. ROGPR has long argued that a Russian national state needs its own genocide museum. Russians were the victims of three genocides in the past century.

 

***

Russia

* Jing Zhang: How Russia’s ‘red tourism’ is luring wealthy Chinese visitors bored with Paris and Milan

* Leonid Bershidsky: A Russian Business Icon Sells Out to the State

Sergey Galitsky and Magnit were one of the rare genuine entrepreneurial success stories of modern Russia, and now it too has been swallowed up by Leviathan.

The buyer is state-owned VTB, a politically well-connected bank that recently financed the “privatization” of 19.5% of Rosneft. Galitsky did not seem happy with the sale, and the price he got for it was surprisingly low relative to the revenue and profits it was making.

I have pointed out Putin’s success at improving ease of business in Russia. But to what extent is this even relevant now that the state controls 70% of the economy and is expanding its reach into the grocery aisles?

* Depressing Novaya Gazeta account of Russian failure to organize post-sanctions domestic manufacturing of military thermal imagers thanks to nepotism and corruption.

* Moscow has built 70 metro stations in the past 5 years.

* Why does Russia have zero soft power?

rossotrudnichevstvo-peskov-wife

Head of Paris division of Rossotrudnichestvo [first problem: impossible for non-Slavs to pronounce] happened to be headed by the former wife of Peskov (Putin’s spokesman), Ekaterina Solotsinskaya, who had been appointed to the position in 2017 when Putin visited France in May 2017.

She refused Zakhar Prilepin, a hugely popular Russian writer and vatnik, access to its hotel on the basis that he was a “Donbass terrorist.”

Russia is not so nepotistic to let that stand, and she had to write step down, albeit for another reason – having two undeclared companies, through which she had been acquiring Paris properties (presumably at the expense of promoting Russian culture). Best part, though? She strongly resisted signing the resignation letter, on the basis that she… had good ties with Ksenia Sobchak and Ramzan Kadyrov (!). So, apart from all that, terminally stupid as well.

On the other hand, she’s much richer than me, so what do I know, really.

* Russia might withdraw from the ECHR, which will automatically eject it from the Council of Europe. Given its anti-Russian bias, that’s the correct thing to do.

* Fred Weir: Why the Kremlin publishes uncensored translations of Western news (on Insomi)

***

World

* Audacious Epigone: Fake Russia collusion calumny delivers body blow to FBI’s credibility

* South Africa legalizes expropriation of land from white farmers without compensation. Looks like we’re approaching the Mugabe scenario there.

Advice for Visegrad, Russia: Easen immigration for South African whites. You’ll be:

  1. doing a good, humanitarian/Christian thing;
  2. Trigger the SJWs;
  3. Be better able to deflect German/Brussels lectures about refugees;
  4. Reinforce your own demographics;

* John Derbyshire: WHAT’S WRONG WITH CHINA–A Study Of Unchanged National Character.

Also, you are never going to be so this hardcore:

hardcore-definition

* Pony Ma (Tencent) becomes richest Chinese person with $47 billion. This is pretty interesting, since there was previously an unofficial rule that Chinese billionaires were not supposed to exceed $10 billion in wealth.(any more, and they got in trouble… corruption investigations, etc.). Have the CPC finally dropped this policy?

* Sinotriumph Chronicles:

* The US is so zogged that it is telling Poland that it shouldn’t count on a meeting with Trump or Pence because of their anti-Polish holocaust law.

* Poles have started asking Ukrainian immigrants about their attitudes to Stepan Bandera. Ambiguous responses = deportation.

* Bryan MacDonald: America’s elite thinks it has a divine right to rule the world

* New Statesman: The polite extremist: Jacob Rees-Mogg’s seemingly unstoppable rise

* Niccolo Soldo: The Visegrad Group’s Exit from Liberal Democracy

* Turkey’s Erdogan in row over ‘girl martyr’ comment on TV. This is very normal and not creepy at all.

***

Science & Culture

* National Geographic: These People Believe Death Is Only Temporary (photo essay about Russian transhumanists)

***

Powerful Takes

This entire thread, pretty much: http://www.unz.com/tsaker/russian-presidential-elections-boring-useless-and-necessary/

powerful-take-martyanov

powerful-take-2

take-ap-foreign

 
• Category: Miscellaneous • Tags: China, Corruption, Open Thread, Russia, South Africa 
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  1. Hey look!

    The friendly octopus is saving the Balkans and Caucuses from Ottomans!

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  2. Russia might withdraw from the ECHR, which will automatically eject it from the Council of Europe. Given its anti-Russian bias, that’s the correct thing to do.

    I wish my country could get out of the ECHR (and we’re largely to blame for the damn thing!) What exactly is the point of a supposed constitutional safeguard that pretends to guarantee a “right to free expression”, but provides that it: “may be subject to such formalities, conditions, restrictions or penalties as are prescribed by law and are necessary in a democratic society, in the interests of national security, territorial integrity or public safety, for the prevention of disorder or crime, for the protection of health or morals, for the protection of the reputation or rights of others, for preventing the disclosure of information received in confidence, or for maintaining the authority and impartiality of the judiciary.

    Contrast that bloviating verbiage, that utterly vitiates the whole point of the thing, with the simplicity of the US’s First Amendment:

    Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

    Along with NATO and the EU, of course. Mind you, I seriously doubt we will even meaningfully exit the EU, and supposedly our government is already committed to doing that.

    * Fred Weir: Why the Kremlin publishes uncensored translations of Western news (on Insomi)

    Did they credit The Saker? This looks like it was inspired by his article, with a pro-western spin put on it.

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    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
    Agrees on ECHR. Besides the political bias, it does nothing to actually safeguard free speech rights.

    I suppose you'd have to do a textual analysis to see how "inspired" (if at all) Fred Weir was by the Shaker, but two renarks:

    1. Imosmi and the role it plays in Russia is hardly a secret. I was making many of the same points several years ago (I even tried to set up an Imosmi in reverse in 2013), and I wasn't the only one doing it, either. My perception is that the relative reach and importance of Imosmi has declined relative to its heyday 5 years to a decade ago, hence people began to write less about it, and why The Saker's (very good) article came like a blast of fresh air on this topic for many in 2017.

    2. Fred Weir is one of the better western hacks in Moscow.
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  3. ROGPR has long argued that a Russian national state needs its own genocide museum. Russians were the victims of three genocides in the past century.

    I’ve been wondering about that idea of yours for some time. The only item on your list where the charge of “genocide” has any plausibility at all is the Nazi German invasion, with the siege of Leningrad and the like, and one can at least construct a somewhat plausible case that Nazi intentions towards Russia were genocidal (even if one assumes that the most radical plans might not have been fully realized, the Nazis certainly wanted to permanently destroy Russia as a nation/state). I assume there already are museums in Russia about German WW2 atrocities. But how do you want to spin Bolshevism and the “reforms” of the 1990s as anti-Russian “genocide”? They certainly don’t fit the standard definition of genocide (unless you just use the term in the sense of mass death…which empties it of all specific meaning) and catastrophic as they may have been for millions of Russians, they also included lots of Russians behaving horribly towards other Russians. Unless you want to push all responsibility onto non-Russian minorities (Jewish Bolsheviks and oligarchs, Latvian riflemen, Stalin’s Georgian clique) or external actors (imperial Germany sending Lenin to Russia, the US pushing privatization), how can it be denied that Russians to a large extent did colossal harm to themselves in those two eras?

    The US is so zogged that it is telling Poland that it shouldn’t count on a meeting with Trump or Pence because of their anti-Polish holocaust law.

    Wow if true.

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    • Replies: @melanf

    But how do you want to spin Bolshevism and the “reforms” of the 1990s as anti-Russian “genocide”
     
    Well, if Stalin collectivization in the West is officially called genocide, the reforms of the 90s with a much greater reason can be considered genocide (organized by America)

    Unless you want to push all responsibility onto non-Russian minorities (Jewish Bolsheviks and oligarchs, Latvian riflemen, Stalin’s Georgian clique) or external actors (imperial Germany sending Lenin to Russia, the US pushing privatization),
     

    Probably over time it would be like this (except Stalin). This propaganda is quite consistent with the standards of the modern "Politics of memory"
    , @Anatoly Karlin
    Well, there are East Europeans who say "Soviets" perpetrated genocide against them - including some nationalities who themselves were overrepresented in soviet power structures and security organs - so why can't Russians use the same formulation? The joint Nazi-Soviet genocide against the Russian people.

    It will be lavishly equipped, have sad music, 4D media presentations, databases of victims on the wall, it will occupy a central space in Moscow.
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  4. This Polish Holocaust thing sounds like something deliberately designed to make people hate Jews. But probably I’m just overestimating people’s capacity for independent thinking and their general knowledge levels.

    The South African developments should also be a strong redpill. But they aren’t and will never be. It will be spinned out of existence or at least will be made a “complex issue” (all genocides are complex to an extent, dumbfucks), all sides will be painted black.

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    • Replies: @German_reader

    The South African developments should also be a strong redpill
     
    They might be if there's real violence, with blacks hacking up whites in front of tv cameras or something of the sort.
    I have to admit I'm almost hoping for that (yes, I know, pretty cynical)...given the most important graph in the world, this false perception of Africans as non-threatening victims needs to end.
    , @Chuck

    This Polish Holocaust thing sounds like something deliberately designed to make people hate Jews.
     
    Will somebody please think about the Jews!
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  5. @reiner Tor
    This Polish Holocaust thing sounds like something deliberately designed to make people hate Jews. But probably I’m just overestimating people’s capacity for independent thinking and their general knowledge levels.

    The South African developments should also be a strong redpill. But they aren’t and will never be. It will be spinned out of existence or at least will be made a “complex issue” (all genocides are complex to an extent, dumbfucks), all sides will be painted black.

    The South African developments should also be a strong redpill

    They might be if there’s real violence, with blacks hacking up whites in front of tv cameras or something of the sort.
    I have to admit I’m almost hoping for that (yes, I know, pretty cynical)…given the most important graph in the world, this false perception of Africans as non-threatening victims needs to end.

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    • Replies: @Dmitry

    They might be if there’s real violence, with blacks hacking up whites in front of tv cameras or something of the sort.
    I have to admit I’m almost hoping for that (yes, I know, pretty cynical)…given the most important graph in the world, this false perception of Africans as non-threatening victims needs to end.
     
    The number of violence has fallen a lot since the 1990s and early 2000s, even if it is still very high. Reading a little into the subject - there is still a a high emigration rate, to Australia and UK. But in recent years it seems mostly to correlate to economic growth and recession, similar to emigration patterns from Russia.

    I would like to go on holiday to South Africa. I wonder how dangerous it really is today.
    , @Polish Perspective

    They might be if there’s real violence, with blacks hacking up whites in front of tv cameras or something of the sort.
     
    I guess I am far more cynical than you, then. If that were to happen, I fully expect the MSM to go into a frenzy trying to justify the murders. It won't be an open "they deserved it". It will be "whites created a systematic oppression of blacks through loot and plunder for centuries. You may now condemn these base instincts, but what are they if not the spasms of retribution from a much weaker party trampled upon with your silent approval?" In other words: they deserved it, but with more rhetorical flourish.

    At this stage, it is impossible to be in any major Western MSM position and be openly pro-white interests. The best reporter on South Africa in the West is a Chinese reporter at Sydney Morning Herald, who Steve Sailer is also quoting in his blogpost about it. There used to be a few voices in the UK press in particular(Telegraph was a notable example), but that is fading now. My guess is that it was reporters who had South African family members (either who lived there or those who married in). Something like 800K white South Africans left for the UK from the late 80s up until the early 2000s IIRC.

    Given the extreme hatred shown towards Western whites in your own countries from your own media, I would be astonished if white South Africans were shown any different courtesy.
    , @szopen
    Whites have been murdered in South Africa for years, with genocide watch warning that they are very close to being genocided and you know what? No one cares. If you would say that in some circles, they would call you racist instead, beacuse why do you care about whites in SA, when blacks also murder blacks?
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  6. I like the China article, but I don’t like things like that:

    “Mao was not a dictator until 1966.”

    His power was limited after 1962 and the seven thousand cadres conference, but he was a dictator before that, able to get any of his opponents marginalized and killed. And of course most national leaders are not capable of unleashing something like the cultural revolution.

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    • Replies: @Mitleser

    His power was limited after 1962 and the seven thousand cadres conference, but he was a dictator before that, able to get any of his opponents marginalized and killed. And of course most national leaders are not capable of unleashing something like the cultural revolution.
     
    Just like every PRC leader.

    The People's Republic of China is a socialist state under the people's democratic dictatorship
     
    http://en.people.cn/constitution/constitution.html
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  7. * South Africa legalizes expropriation of land from white farmers without compensation. Looks like we’re approaching the Mugabe scenario there.

    Advice for Visegrad, Russia: Easen immigration for South African whites. You’ll be:

    doing a good, humanitarian/Christian thing;
    Trigger the SJWs;
    Be better able to deflect German/Brussels lectures about refugees;
    Reinforce your own demographics;

    They are probably more interested in immigrating to Australia or Canada. Visegrád country is good to the extent it would give you rights to live without a job pre-secured, in other parts of the EU.

    Really if someone told you can immigrate to Visegrád countries, what are supposed to do for a job when you get there? It’s a good option, but to the extent it would give you possibility to live in Ireland/Sweden/UK/Netherlands, etc. without having to apply for a job in those countries first. But the capable people who want to emigrate from South Africa, already can by applying for jobs in those countries.

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    • Agree: melanf
    • Replies: @Polish Perspective
    I largely agree with you, but I still think AK's point stands. Naturally the white South Africans would prefer to live in Ireland or the Netherlands or the UK over, say, Poland. They already know English, and Afrikaans is very close linguistically to Dutch IIRC. On top of that, those countries are wealthier, too.

    But there would still be a propaganda victory, because these people do deserve to be given refugee status for genuine persecution. I am personally skeptical over just how many would take the offer. A lot of Boers are religiously fundamentalist and many of them have roots going back many centuries. They will quite literally rather be dead than moving out. Most of the people who had more tenuous feelings towards the nation already left in the 90s and early 2000s. Chain migration works for whites, too, you know. It wouldn't be that hard for the numerous white South Africans in Australia or the UK to bring along their extended family if they really put their minds to it.

    One of the most redplling but also blackpilling things about South Africa is how it underscores that there is no Magic Threshold below which whites will suddenly "wake up". You can be 5%-10% of the population, brutalised, and still be largely bluepilled on race, which is what the Boers in SA are. This only underlines the importance of metapolitics and to never, ever take anything for granted. A lot of US WN made the same mistake with Trump. Just elect him and watch him fight for you. Then he completely sold out to ZOG. Now some of the retards are refusing to admit it, and attack those who see it.

    There are simply no short cuts. One has to build an ethnocentric cultural foundation and it will be arduous work, spanning decades. White flight, magically hoping for a "sudden collapse" or for there to be some kind of "magic threshold" when the white population reaches a certain percentage and "wakes up", none of those things will save you. As South Africa shows very clearly.

    The final lesson on South Africa is that the architects of Apartheid failed not because they were too cruel, but because they weren't radical enough. They should have gone for complete separation, in different countries. Instead they floundered and went for partial separation (read: segregation) in the same country. That failure to do final closure is now coming back to haunt them. It is also why civic nationalism, even when laced with racial realism, will always fail.

    , @anonymous coward

    Easen immigration for South African whites.
     
    Bad idea. South African whites are some of the most pozzed people on Earth. (And this despite being literally subjected to "white genocide" every day!)

    There's an esoteric point to be made here: for various complex reasons, all Lutheran and Calvinist are suicidally pozzed. I doubt they can be saved.
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  8. I am a stockholder in Magnit and am very disappointed by this.

    What is going on in Russia exactly? Is this just intended to reward the regime?

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    • Agree: Anatoly Karlin
    • Replies: @bb.
    i don't know their financials, maybe you could have more info, but a lot of retailers are indebted af, not only in Russia. this might have been a pre-emptive bailout. it is also possible that it is a hostile, covered takeover by alfa group, the main competitor, to whom vtb will sell. it is also possible (wild speculation) that Russian banks need to capitalize before some kind of coming storm ... 'dollar-decoupling' or some kind of currency reform (whats the deal with all the gold hoarding and petro-rmb connection?) regardless, it seems there will be a lot of privatization in Russia in the coming years, coupled with declining interest rates.
    , @Philip Owen
    There is not much private capital in the country. Since Crimea it has been steadily leaving.
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  9. @German_reader

    The South African developments should also be a strong redpill
     
    They might be if there's real violence, with blacks hacking up whites in front of tv cameras or something of the sort.
    I have to admit I'm almost hoping for that (yes, I know, pretty cynical)...given the most important graph in the world, this false perception of Africans as non-threatening victims needs to end.

    They might be if there’s real violence, with blacks hacking up whites in front of tv cameras or something of the sort.
    I have to admit I’m almost hoping for that (yes, I know, pretty cynical)…given the most important graph in the world, this false perception of Africans as non-threatening victims needs to end.

    The number of violence has fallen a lot since the 1990s and early 2000s, even if it is still very high. Reading a little into the subject – there is still a a high emigration rate, to Australia and UK. But in recent years it seems mostly to correlate to economic growth and recession, similar to emigration patterns from Russia.

    I would like to go on holiday to South Africa. I wonder how dangerous it really is today.

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  10. You may laugh at Skolkovo, but it’s no laughing matter in the United States of Hysteria.

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  11. InoSMI is actually a very innovative and great propaganda tool. I often think that the heavy handed approach of the communist regimes never really worked, and allowing multiple points of view and critical opinions to be read by the more sophisticated classes actually strengthens the propaganda. This is why western propaganda is so effective, because it creates the illusion of being well informed and a “critical thinker.” It also creates the possibility of being a regime supporter while simultaneously keeping your distance and independence.

    The communists always demanded total compliance with their ideology in the public sphere, which meant even slightly sympathetic people (famous writers and the like) had to pretend to be fully communist. But it was always contrived and fake, and no one believed it at all. So it wasn’t so effective because you couldn’t tell if someone really had something good to say about communism or was just forced to do so.

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    • Agree: Felix Keverich
    • Replies: @Dmitry

    InoSMI is actually a very innovative and great propaganda tool. I often think that the heavy handed approach of the communist regimes never really worked, and allowing multiple points of view and critical opinions to be read by the more sophisticated classes actually strengthens the propaganda.
     
    Although they did a job in terms of putting a lot of effort into the site every day, it is clearly a failure because hardly anyone reads it. (It gets around 30,000 clicks a day from within Russia itself. The whole website is clicked less than the typical (single - i.e. one video) popular youtuber video).

    Reason people are not reading it is that all stories are about Russia - so it's kind of a niche interest (reading foreign opinion articles about Russia), which is 'getting boring' fast (foreign views of country can only be interesting for so long).

    Also people who are so curious to read foreign media, can usually read a foreign language enough to go to the originating sites where those articles are arising.

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  12. @German_reader

    The South African developments should also be a strong redpill
     
    They might be if there's real violence, with blacks hacking up whites in front of tv cameras or something of the sort.
    I have to admit I'm almost hoping for that (yes, I know, pretty cynical)...given the most important graph in the world, this false perception of Africans as non-threatening victims needs to end.

    They might be if there’s real violence, with blacks hacking up whites in front of tv cameras or something of the sort.

    I guess I am far more cynical than you, then. If that were to happen, I fully expect the MSM to go into a frenzy trying to justify the murders. It won’t be an open “they deserved it”. It will be “whites created a systematic oppression of blacks through loot and plunder for centuries. You may now condemn these base instincts, but what are they if not the spasms of retribution from a much weaker party trampled upon with your silent approval?” In other words: they deserved it, but with more rhetorical flourish.

    At this stage, it is impossible to be in any major Western MSM position and be openly pro-white interests. The best reporter on South Africa in the West is a Chinese reporter at Sydney Morning Herald, who Steve Sailer is also quoting in his blogpost about it. There used to be a few voices in the UK press in particular(Telegraph was a notable example), but that is fading now. My guess is that it was reporters who had South African family members (either who lived there or those who married in). Something like 800K white South Africans left for the UK from the late 80s up until the early 2000s IIRC.

    Given the extreme hatred shown towards Western whites in your own countries from your own media, I would be astonished if white South Africans were shown any different courtesy.

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    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    I agree to an extent, but there’s still the possibility of a lot of videos of violence reaching a large audience through social media. And heavy handed censorship might slowly make people ever more suspicious of official propaganda.

    But as I wrote, I don’t have high hopes of whites waking up.

    , @German_reader
    You're probably mostly right; but on the other hand, even on Germany's notoriously pc public broadcasting services I've seen reports in the past about poor South African whites who live in shantytowns and are basically trapped in South Africa (horrifying situation if you think about it) which weren't completely without sympathy for the whites. The whole murders of white farmers business has also gained at least some attention even in mainstream media. So I'm not sure if it could really all be covered up if militant black nationalists engage in major anti-white violence.
    , @KARTHEEK
    IN 2000'S ROBERT MUGABE OF ZIMBABWE HAS CONFISCATED LANDS OF WHITE FARMERS AND WHEN HE WAS REMOVED FROM PRESIDENCY LAST YEAR .ONE OF THE FIRST ACTS OF NEW GOVERNENT IS TO RESTORE THOSE LANDS TO WHITE FARMERS.IN BETWEEN THEESE EVENTS ,ZIMBABWE SUFFERRED HUGE INFLATION AND OTHER ECONOMIC EFFECTS.I THINK WHITE PEOPLE HAVE LOT OF POWER
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  13. [state controls 70% of the economy]

    Yuge if true, I’m afraid.

    [Russia might withdraw from the ECHR, which will automatically eject it from the Council of Europe. Given its anti-Russian bias, that’s the correct thing to do]

    Indeed. And the death penalty should be immediately restored, else what’s the point?

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  14. “Polish minister calls for commemoration of non-Jewish victims of WWII. ”

    Envious. ROGPR has long argued that a Russian national state needs its own genocide museum. Russians were the victims of three genocides in the past century.

    Why do you think there hasn’t been a movement on it? Do you think it is mainly elite objections? If so, what would they be (in your view)? Are there grassroots movements among ordinary Russians for one?

    The US is so zogged that it is telling Poland that it shouldn’t count on a meeting with Trump or Pence because of their anti-Polish holocaust law.

    I’m not surprised. I’ve been following the complete and utter degeneration of the Trump presidency quite closely. Hunter Wallace at Occidental Dissent has been great, even if he has been attacked viciously by the Trumptards. Really since Bannon was fired it was all downhill, and even Bannon had severe problems. He tried to fundraise among Jewish GOP donors to unseat “the establishment”. Why would the establishment fundraise to unseat themselves? The idiot Bannon never knew what hit him and he got purged from Breitbart within six months. FYI:

    When Mike Enoch talks about the ‘kosher sandwich’ of public “debate” in America, this is what he means. That’s why this news is the least surprising news ever.

    As for Poland’s chances to win this fight, I am skeptical in the long term. Poles are quite liberal and very obsessed to be liked by the West. I don’t view Russia as hostile, but as things stand, it is not actively our friend either.

    I was impressed by Germany’s actions during the entire affair and it once again re-affirmed the flank of those, tiny in the public sphere, who call for closer relations with Germany over that of America. Germany will never be as important as the US in military terms – for obvious reasons – but I am now at the point where I believe we can only rely on an independent nuclear deterrent and nothing else.

    Still, there are limits to ZOG’s actions as well. They are absolutely obsessed with destroying Russia at any price. A more pro-Russian Poland would be a disaster in their eyes, which is why Poland’s hand is strangely better than it would have been otherwise. This is why I fully expect a concerted campaign to re-elect PO and the previous ZOG lapdogs(PiS are too, but not even to the same extreme extent. Sikorski openly talks of appeasing the Jewish diaspora in his latest speech). If internal change does not come about, we will be at a deadlock, I think, for years to come.

    If nothing else, the whole affair is slowly redpilling a lot of Poles, who have been indoctrinated with one-sided Judeophilia in their schools since the fall of the wall. Turns out that those who we are told are our “brotherly peoples” like to spit in our face and for the longest time we have done nothing about it. This long running controversy is filling forcing people to deal with this fantasy, but the process will be long and I don’t expect any immediate returns on investment in terms of changed (and lasting) attitudes until years into the future.

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    • Replies: @Dmitry

    Why do you think there hasn’t been a movement on it? Do you think it is mainly elite objections? If so, what would they be (in your view)? Are there grassroots movements among ordinary Russians for one?

     

    I think it's a fair idea from the victims' position. But the perspective is not the official one, but more of a liberal/opposition one. It wouldn't serve official interests or to build the official viewpoint. The historical museums usually have some patriotic-building function.
    , @dfordoom

    but I am now at the point where I believe we can only rely on an independent nuclear deterrent and nothing else.
     
    Every sane country should be developing its own nuclear deterrent as fast as possible.

    If you don't have your own nukes your only option is to choose whose vassal you're going to be. And you probably won't even get that choice.
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  15. @Dmitry

    * South Africa legalizes expropriation of land from white farmers without compensation. Looks like we’re approaching the Mugabe scenario there.

    Advice for Visegrad, Russia: Easen immigration for South African whites. You’ll be:

    doing a good, humanitarian/Christian thing;
    Trigger the SJWs;
    Be better able to deflect German/Brussels lectures about refugees;
    Reinforce your own demographics;
     

    They are probably more interested in immigrating to Australia or Canada. Visegrád country is good to the extent it would give you rights to live without a job pre-secured, in other parts of the EU.

    Really if someone told you can immigrate to Visegrád countries, what are supposed to do for a job when you get there? It's a good option, but to the extent it would give you possibility to live in Ireland/Sweden/UK/Netherlands, etc. without having to apply for a job in those countries first. But the capable people who want to emigrate from South Africa, already can by applying for jobs in those countries.

    I largely agree with you, but I still think AK’s point stands. Naturally the white South Africans would prefer to live in Ireland or the Netherlands or the UK over, say, Poland. They already know English, and Afrikaans is very close linguistically to Dutch IIRC. On top of that, those countries are wealthier, too.

    But there would still be a propaganda victory, because these people do deserve to be given refugee status for genuine persecution. I am personally skeptical over just how many would take the offer. A lot of Boers are religiously fundamentalist and many of them have roots going back many centuries. They will quite literally rather be dead than moving out. Most of the people who had more tenuous feelings towards the nation already left in the 90s and early 2000s. Chain migration works for whites, too, you know. It wouldn’t be that hard for the numerous white South Africans in Australia or the UK to bring along their extended family if they really put their minds to it.

    One of the most redplling but also blackpilling things about South Africa is how it underscores that there is no Magic Threshold below which whites will suddenly “wake up”. You can be 5%-10% of the population, brutalised, and still be largely bluepilled on race, which is what the Boers in SA are. This only underlines the importance of metapolitics and to never, ever take anything for granted. A lot of US WN made the same mistake with Trump. Just elect him and watch him fight for you. Then he completely sold out to ZOG. Now some of the retards are refusing to admit it, and attack those who see it.

    There are simply no short cuts. One has to build an ethnocentric cultural foundation and it will be arduous work, spanning decades. White flight, magically hoping for a “sudden collapse” or for there to be some kind of “magic threshold” when the white population reaches a certain percentage and “wakes up”, none of those things will save you. As South Africa shows very clearly.

    The final lesson on South Africa is that the architects of Apartheid failed not because they were too cruel, but because they weren’t radical enough. They should have gone for complete separation, in different countries. Instead they floundered and went for partial separation (read: segregation) in the same country. That failure to do final closure is now coming back to haunt them. It is also why civic nationalism, even when laced with racial realism, will always fail.

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    • Replies: @Dmitry

    I largely agree with you, but I still think AK’s point stands. Naturally the white South Africans would prefer to live in Ireland or the Netherlands or the UK over, say, Poland. They already know English, and Afrikaans is very close linguistically to Dutch IIRC. On top of that, those countries are wealthier, too.

    But there would still be a propaganda victory, because these people do deserve to be given refugee status for genuine persecution. I am personally skeptical over just how many would take the offer. A lot of Boers are religiously fundamentalist and many of them have roots going back many centuries. They will quite literally rather be dead than moving out. Most of the people who had more tenuous feelings towards the nation already left in the 90s and early 2000s. Chain migration works for whites, too, you know. It wouldn’t be that hard for the numerous white South Africans in Australia or the UK to bring along their extended family if they really put their minds to it.
     

    They already can live abroad if they want to, and they are coming into Australia and the UK every year.

    South Africa is not the USSR - nobody is stopping people from emigrating. The idea might make sense from convenience perspective - since a EU passport is more convenient in allowing you to live in EU countries like Ireland/UK. But it's not difficult to move there if they wish anyway, you just need to apply for job.

    I think it's actually a lot easier for South Africans to leave than for Ukrainians, as the South Africans have economic resources. The reason South Africans are staying behind, is probably because they don't want to leave, they have good jobs, good assets, or a good standard of living in South Africa. If South Africa economy totally collapses in Venezuela style, only this could change.

    , @dfordoom

    One of the most redplling but also blackpilling things about South Africa is how it underscores that there is no Magic Threshold below which whites will suddenly “wake up”. You can be 5%-10% of the population, brutalised, and still be largely bluepilled on race, which is what the Boers in SA are.
     
    Agreed.
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  16. @German_reader

    ROGPR has long argued that a Russian national state needs its own genocide museum. Russians were the victims of three genocides in the past century.
     
    I've been wondering about that idea of yours for some time. The only item on your list where the charge of "genocide" has any plausibility at all is the Nazi German invasion, with the siege of Leningrad and the like, and one can at least construct a somewhat plausible case that Nazi intentions towards Russia were genocidal (even if one assumes that the most radical plans might not have been fully realized, the Nazis certainly wanted to permanently destroy Russia as a nation/state). I assume there already are museums in Russia about German WW2 atrocities. But how do you want to spin Bolshevism and the "reforms" of the 1990s as anti-Russian "genocide"? They certainly don't fit the standard definition of genocide (unless you just use the term in the sense of mass death...which empties it of all specific meaning) and catastrophic as they may have been for millions of Russians, they also included lots of Russians behaving horribly towards other Russians. Unless you want to push all responsibility onto non-Russian minorities (Jewish Bolsheviks and oligarchs, Latvian riflemen, Stalin's Georgian clique) or external actors (imperial Germany sending Lenin to Russia, the US pushing privatization), how can it be denied that Russians to a large extent did colossal harm to themselves in those two eras?

    The US is so zogged that it is telling Poland that it shouldn’t count on a meeting with Trump or Pence because of their anti-Polish holocaust law.
     
    Wow if true.

    But how do you want to spin Bolshevism and the “reforms” of the 1990s as anti-Russian “genocide”

    Well, if Stalin collectivization in the West is officially called genocide, the reforms of the 90s with a much greater reason can be considered genocide (organized by America)

    Unless you want to push all responsibility onto non-Russian minorities (Jewish Bolsheviks and oligarchs, Latvian riflemen, Stalin’s Georgian clique) or external actors (imperial Germany sending Lenin to Russia, the US pushing privatization),

    Probably over time it would be like this (except Stalin). This propaganda is quite consistent with the standards of the modern “Politics of memory”

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    • Replies: @Jaakko Raipala

    Well, if Stalin collectivization in the West is officially called genocide,
     
    That's when Western propagandists interpret collectivization as an ethnic Russian scheme to mass murder minorities - Ukrainians, Tatars, Finno-Ugrians. Mainly Ukrainians since they're the only group with lobbies in the West and since Ukraine is a key country that the Americans can use to contain Russia.

    the reforms of the 90s with a much greater reason can be considered genocide (organized by America)
     
    I would advice not getting into the game of interpreting increased death rates as genocides that Western leftists have created since by Western standards Russia is easily guilty of hundreds of genocides. The "collectivization genocide" blame will be easy to paint on Russians by statistical fiat since many areas that were hit by famines also experienced an influx of Russians and a decline in the local minority language at the same time.

    It's now considered a "genocide" in Western social justice movements that the children of natives with tiny languages spoken by one tribe of a few thousand people were forced to go into schools where they learned the main language of the country, leading to a bunch of minority languages going extinct. That's pretty much what communist education did so by current Western standards Russia genocided over a hundred minority ethnic groups in the 20th century.

    Once the social justice people get going it will be no defense that it was done in the name of "progress" - building these schools was a leftist progressive project in the West, too, yet modern progressives expect us all to feel shame over past progressive projects.
    , @AP

    Well, if Stalin collectivization in the West is officially called genocide, the reforms of the 90s with a much greater reason can be considered genocide (organized by America)
     
    Because confiscating food and starving people to death literally, is the same as collapse in birth rate and people doing stuff like choosing to drink themselves to death because they feel nihilistic and bad. Perhaps you will also compare Russia in the 90s to the Holocaust?

    There is clearly a question of whether Ukrainians, or Kazakhs, were targeted for their ethnicity (no direct evidence that they were) but it's widely accepted that government policies resulted in starvation. No Russian government agency was forcibly aborting Russian kids or force-feeding birth control to Russian women or forcing alcohol down Russians' throats, but Soviet government workers were confiscating grain from farmers, were shooting those who resisted, etc.
    , @German_reader

    Well, if Stalin collectivization in the West is officially called genocide
     
    My impression is most serious Western academics don't regard the collectivization famines of the early 1930s as intentional genocide like some Ukrainian nationalists claim, so I don't see where that "officially called genocide" comes from...have there been any resolutions by Western legislatures to that effect (like there have been about the Armenian genocide)?
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  17. @Randal

    Russia might withdraw from the ECHR, which will automatically eject it from the Council of Europe. Given its anti-Russian bias, that’s the correct thing to do.
     
    I wish my country could get out of the ECHR (and we're largely to blame for the damn thing!) What exactly is the point of a supposed constitutional safeguard that pretends to guarantee a "right to free expression", but provides that it: "may be subject to such formalities, conditions, restrictions or penalties as are prescribed by law and are necessary in a democratic society, in the interests of national security, territorial integrity or public safety, for the prevention of disorder or crime, for the protection of health or morals, for the protection of the reputation or rights of others, for preventing the disclosure of information received in confidence, or for maintaining the authority and impartiality of the judiciary."

    Contrast that bloviating verbiage, that utterly vitiates the whole point of the thing, with the simplicity of the US's First Amendment:

    Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
     

    Along with NATO and the EU, of course. Mind you, I seriously doubt we will even meaningfully exit the EU, and supposedly our government is already committed to doing that.

    * Fred Weir: Why the Kremlin publishes uncensored translations of Western news (on Insomi)
     

    Did they credit The Saker? This looks like it was inspired by his article, with a pro-western spin put on it.

    Agrees on ECHR. Besides the political bias, it does nothing to actually safeguard free speech rights.

    I suppose you’d have to do a textual analysis to see how “inspired” (if at all) Fred Weir was by the Shaker, but two renarks:

    1. Imosmi and the role it plays in Russia is hardly a secret. I was making many of the same points several years ago (I even tried to set up an Imosmi in reverse in 2013), and I wasn’t the only one doing it, either. My perception is that the relative reach and importance of Imosmi has declined relative to its heyday 5 years to a decade ago, hence people began to write less about it, and why The Saker’s (very good) article came like a blast of fresh air on this topic for many in 2017.

    2. Fred Weir is one of the better western hacks in Moscow.

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  18. @German_reader

    ROGPR has long argued that a Russian national state needs its own genocide museum. Russians were the victims of three genocides in the past century.
     
    I've been wondering about that idea of yours for some time. The only item on your list where the charge of "genocide" has any plausibility at all is the Nazi German invasion, with the siege of Leningrad and the like, and one can at least construct a somewhat plausible case that Nazi intentions towards Russia were genocidal (even if one assumes that the most radical plans might not have been fully realized, the Nazis certainly wanted to permanently destroy Russia as a nation/state). I assume there already are museums in Russia about German WW2 atrocities. But how do you want to spin Bolshevism and the "reforms" of the 1990s as anti-Russian "genocide"? They certainly don't fit the standard definition of genocide (unless you just use the term in the sense of mass death...which empties it of all specific meaning) and catastrophic as they may have been for millions of Russians, they also included lots of Russians behaving horribly towards other Russians. Unless you want to push all responsibility onto non-Russian minorities (Jewish Bolsheviks and oligarchs, Latvian riflemen, Stalin's Georgian clique) or external actors (imperial Germany sending Lenin to Russia, the US pushing privatization), how can it be denied that Russians to a large extent did colossal harm to themselves in those two eras?

    The US is so zogged that it is telling Poland that it shouldn’t count on a meeting with Trump or Pence because of their anti-Polish holocaust law.
     
    Wow if true.

    Well, there are East Europeans who say “Soviets” perpetrated genocide against them – including some nationalities who themselves were overrepresented in soviet power structures and security organs – so why can’t Russians use the same formulation? The joint Nazi-Soviet genocide against the Russian people.

    It will be lavishly equipped, have sad music, 4D media presentations, databases of victims on the wall, it will occupy a central space in Moscow.

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    • Replies: @Randal
    And after all, it doesn't matter whether or not it's "true" anyway - just make a law against questioning it.
    , @Dmitry

    The joint Nazi-Soviet genocide against the Russian people.

    It will be lavishly equipped, have sad music, 4D media presentations, databases of victims on the wall, it will occupy a central space in Moscow.
     

    Lenin is still in Red Square and everyone goes crazy if anyone suggests reburying him. Such a museum, with the concept of equivalence with Nazis and Soviets, would not be considered politically acceptable.

    parallel universe I see this as possible is a world where Ksenia Sobchak is president, and in that case we would have far more significant problems to worry about.

    , @German_reader

    Well, there are East Europeans who say “Soviets” perpetrated genocide against them
     
    Well yes, but they're kind of dumb, and they don't get that much sympathy outside of their own countries, few people buy their narrative.
    I can see where you're coming from, since collective victimhood is a powerful tool in today's identity debates...but still, can Russians really commit genocide against other Russians? And is that something Russian nationalists should dwell on? Seems doubtful to me.
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  19. @Polish Perspective

    They might be if there’s real violence, with blacks hacking up whites in front of tv cameras or something of the sort.
     
    I guess I am far more cynical than you, then. If that were to happen, I fully expect the MSM to go into a frenzy trying to justify the murders. It won't be an open "they deserved it". It will be "whites created a systematic oppression of blacks through loot and plunder for centuries. You may now condemn these base instincts, but what are they if not the spasms of retribution from a much weaker party trampled upon with your silent approval?" In other words: they deserved it, but with more rhetorical flourish.

    At this stage, it is impossible to be in any major Western MSM position and be openly pro-white interests. The best reporter on South Africa in the West is a Chinese reporter at Sydney Morning Herald, who Steve Sailer is also quoting in his blogpost about it. There used to be a few voices in the UK press in particular(Telegraph was a notable example), but that is fading now. My guess is that it was reporters who had South African family members (either who lived there or those who married in). Something like 800K white South Africans left for the UK from the late 80s up until the early 2000s IIRC.

    Given the extreme hatred shown towards Western whites in your own countries from your own media, I would be astonished if white South Africans were shown any different courtesy.

    I agree to an extent, but there’s still the possibility of a lot of videos of violence reaching a large audience through social media. And heavy handed censorship might slowly make people ever more suspicious of official propaganda.

    But as I wrote, I don’t have high hopes of whites waking up.

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    • Replies: @szopen
    I agree - I mean, I don't have high hopes of POLES waking up. We are doomed. Doomed as nations, doomed as a race, doomed as a culture.
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  20. So it seems the EV transition is continuing apace. The new Nissan Leaf was just introduced in February in many markets, such as Norway and as the year goes on, the new Hyundai Kona (EV version) as well as wider availability of the Tesla Model 3 will drive more sales. Volvo recently announced that they are stopping new development of ICE cars.

    In 2-3 years, we should have new MBTs from the major German automakers as well, specifically designed for EVs. From the early 2020s onwards, I expect there to be major choice for the mainstream (<$35,000) market. There is also great progress in the self-driving space, though Tesla appears to have fallen behind somewhat in this area. They are now building their own chip with the help of the legendary Jim Keller (who designed the recent Ryzen CPU which is key for AMD, and who worked on early iPhone CPUs).

    I was thinking of buying a new car, I am only using my bike so far in Warsaw, but there will be more change in the mainstream vehicle market in the next five years than there were in the last fifty, so I am holding out for now. In the winter, public transport is fine. But I'm now thinking maybe I'll just rent a car if TaaS really does take off, and dramatically reduces costs for car ownership in a way which isn't true right now with leasing, especially with the efficiency of level 4 or level 5 autonomy. Exciting times for potential car buyers, at least those of us who want both A) EV cars and B) significant autonomy.

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    • Replies: @Singh
    Just get a Honda civic & add open pilot।।
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  21. Regarding the here no longer mentioned downing of the Israeli jet. Apparently the Israelis lied in some things. Their planes supposedly attacked from Lebanese and Jordanian airspace, but the targets were I think 350 kilometers from the border while their longest range weapons have a range of 250 kilometers. So they must have entered Syrian airspace. Their videos of the retaliatory attacks show some warehouses destroyed, but obviously not air defense assets. The death of the Syrian major general and the pro-Iranian militia leader are something I only read about in the War Is Boring article but not elsewhere. Are these things even confirmed? If they are, were they killed by the Israelis? How do we know it? I’d think the Israelis simply took credit for it.

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    • Replies: @Randal
    I looked at the War is Boring article when it was linked the other day, but it mostly read as Israeli damage limitation propaganda. With such effective liars on all sides it's hard to be sure of anything much.

    In the end we will only get a clear idea of what actually happened, broadly, when we see to what extent if at all, and in what ways, Israeli behaviour (in terms of their heretofore regular air aggressions in Syria) is modified over the coming months.
    , @Dmitry

    Regarding the here no longer mentioned downing of the Israeli jet. Apparently the Israelis lied in some things. Their planes supposedly attacked from Lebanese and Jordanian airspace, but the targets were I think 350 kilometers from the border while their longest range weapons have a range of 250 kilometers. So they must have entered Syrian airspace. Their videos of the retaliatory attacks show some warehouses destroyed, but obviously not air defense assets. The death of the Syrian major general and the pro-Iranian militia leader are something I only read about in the War Is Boring article but not elsewhere. Are these things even confirmed? If they are, were they killed by the Israelis? How do we know it? I’d think the Israelis simply took credit for it.
     
    You need to read the articles in Hebrew (or those Hebrew articles translated on the Russia-Israeli sites). The American articles always misreport all the substance of stories as they cannot read Hebrew. Places like War is Boring are just taking a few ideas from some other English sites. The information on the Hebrew sites and on the television reports tells a lot more details about these stories as you would expect.
    , @LondonBob
    The Israelis had to spin the stunning ambush and shoot down of their most advanced jet in their own airspace.

    https://ejmagnier.com/2018/02/11/syria-does-not-fear-war-with-israel-the-rules-of-engagement-have-changed/

    http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/american-fury-the-truth-about-the-russian-deaths-in-syria-a-1196074.html

    The truth about the Russian mercs killed in Syria.

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  22. @Anatoly Karlin
    Well, there are East Europeans who say "Soviets" perpetrated genocide against them - including some nationalities who themselves were overrepresented in soviet power structures and security organs - so why can't Russians use the same formulation? The joint Nazi-Soviet genocide against the Russian people.

    It will be lavishly equipped, have sad music, 4D media presentations, databases of victims on the wall, it will occupy a central space in Moscow.

    And after all, it doesn’t matter whether or not it’s “true” anyway – just make a law against questioning it.

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  23. @reiner Tor
    Regarding the here no longer mentioned downing of the Israeli jet. Apparently the Israelis lied in some things. Their planes supposedly attacked from Lebanese and Jordanian airspace, but the targets were I think 350 kilometers from the border while their longest range weapons have a range of 250 kilometers. So they must have entered Syrian airspace. Their videos of the retaliatory attacks show some warehouses destroyed, but obviously not air defense assets. The death of the Syrian major general and the pro-Iranian militia leader are something I only read about in the War Is Boring article but not elsewhere. Are these things even confirmed? If they are, were they killed by the Israelis? How do we know it? I’d think the Israelis simply took credit for it.

    I looked at the War is Boring article when it was linked the other day, but it mostly read as Israeli damage limitation propaganda. With such effective liars on all sides it’s hard to be sure of anything much.

    In the end we will only get a clear idea of what actually happened, broadly, when we see to what extent if at all, and in what ways, Israeli behaviour (in terms of their heretofore regular air aggressions in Syria) is modified over the coming months.

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    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    I would bet it was a win for the Syrians. I wouldn’t bet my house on it, but I’d be willing to bet some money here.

    The War Is Boring article admits that the Israeli retaliatory strikes only hit Damascus, i.e. close to the border. And that only for a few hours. Does it sound like someone undeterred? Granted, maybe they’ll find some better tactics next time.

    It’s possible that the hit on the Israeli plane was due to errors, but errors are bound to happen.

    A Hungarian guy (a distant acquaintance) on Facebook wrote that the Israeli videos were showing essentially some warehouses hit, but no Syrian air defense assets. I’m dumb as a rock in these matters, but maybe someone could look into the claims.

    In any event, this is what my acquaintance claims an S-200 air defense battery looks like. The Israeli videos can, I believe, be found on the internet. Although what I found were unclear if they showed the attack on the supposed drone center or on the air defense assets. But a lack of too many videos as well as the shortness of the attack points to the claims of “destroying half of the Syrian air defenses” being dumb lies.

    So my money is on the second Israeli attack being ineffectual, and the deterrence working for now. In other words, a Syrian (and Russian and Iranian) victory.
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  24. @Dmitry

    * South Africa legalizes expropriation of land from white farmers without compensation. Looks like we’re approaching the Mugabe scenario there.

    Advice for Visegrad, Russia: Easen immigration for South African whites. You’ll be:

    doing a good, humanitarian/Christian thing;
    Trigger the SJWs;
    Be better able to deflect German/Brussels lectures about refugees;
    Reinforce your own demographics;
     

    They are probably more interested in immigrating to Australia or Canada. Visegrád country is good to the extent it would give you rights to live without a job pre-secured, in other parts of the EU.

    Really if someone told you can immigrate to Visegrád countries, what are supposed to do for a job when you get there? It's a good option, but to the extent it would give you possibility to live in Ireland/Sweden/UK/Netherlands, etc. without having to apply for a job in those countries first. But the capable people who want to emigrate from South Africa, already can by applying for jobs in those countries.

    Easen immigration for South African whites.

    Bad idea. South African whites are some of the most pozzed people on Earth. (And this despite being literally subjected to “white genocide” every day!)

    There’s an esoteric point to be made here: for various complex reasons, all Lutheran and Calvinist are suicidally pozzed. I doubt they can be saved.

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  25. @Thorfinnsson
    I am a stockholder in Magnit and am very disappointed by this.

    What is going on in Russia exactly? Is this just intended to reward the regime?

    i don’t know their financials, maybe you could have more info, but a lot of retailers are indebted af, not only in Russia. this might have been a pre-emptive bailout. it is also possible that it is a hostile, covered takeover by alfa group, the main competitor, to whom vtb will sell. it is also possible (wild speculation) that Russian banks need to capitalize before some kind of coming storm … ‘dollar-decoupling’ or some kind of currency reform (whats the deal with all the gold hoarding and petro-rmb connection?) regardless, it seems there will be a lot of privatization in Russia in the coming years, coupled with declining interest rates.

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    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson

    i don’t know their financials, maybe you could have more info, but a lot of retailers are indebted af, not only in Russia. this might have been a pre-emptive bailout. it is also possible that it is a hostile, covered takeover by alfa group, the main competitor, to whom vtb will sell. it is also possible (wild speculation) that Russian banks need to capitalize before some kind of coming storm … ‘dollar-decoupling’ or some kind of currency reform (whats the deal with all the gold hoarding and petro-rmb connection?) regardless, it seems there will be a lot of privatization in Russia in the coming years, coupled with declining interest rates.
     

    Magnit's financials are quite good for a retailer. Net margins of 5% and about as good of a moat as can be got in grocery retailing.

    Growth is quite strong even in recent years.

    Information here: http://ir.magnit.com/en/

    I don't approve of touting EBITDA (a criminally irresponsible "accounting" metric), but the data are all there.

    Retail is a brutal sector but I'm comfortable in investing in it. I had a large Kroger position in 2017 and am a current stockholder in Costco and Sephora (Danish jeweler).

    If Russia wants to converge with the advanced countries, it should be touting people like Sergei Galitsky as heroes and role models for Russia's future.

    I realize we're all alt right here (or almost all of us--Unz Review unfortunately still has some libertarians whose brains seemingly never got the alt right dissident patch) and thus have a critical view of the bourgeoisie, but markets and entrepreneurs matter no matter how much Martyanov and The Faker disagree (who both live in the United States--a country which hero worships entrepreneurs and has very, very little public ownership of capital).

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  26. @melanf

    But how do you want to spin Bolshevism and the “reforms” of the 1990s as anti-Russian “genocide”
     
    Well, if Stalin collectivization in the West is officially called genocide, the reforms of the 90s with a much greater reason can be considered genocide (organized by America)

    Unless you want to push all responsibility onto non-Russian minorities (Jewish Bolsheviks and oligarchs, Latvian riflemen, Stalin’s Georgian clique) or external actors (imperial Germany sending Lenin to Russia, the US pushing privatization),
     

    Probably over time it would be like this (except Stalin). This propaganda is quite consistent with the standards of the modern "Politics of memory"

    Well, if Stalin collectivization in the West is officially called genocide,

    That’s when Western propagandists interpret collectivization as an ethnic Russian scheme to mass murder minorities – Ukrainians, Tatars, Finno-Ugrians. Mainly Ukrainians since they’re the only group with lobbies in the West and since Ukraine is a key country that the Americans can use to contain Russia.

    the reforms of the 90s with a much greater reason can be considered genocide (organized by America)

    I would advice not getting into the game of interpreting increased death rates as genocides that Western leftists have created since by Western standards Russia is easily guilty of hundreds of genocides. The “collectivization genocide” blame will be easy to paint on Russians by statistical fiat since many areas that were hit by famines also experienced an influx of Russians and a decline in the local minority language at the same time.

    It’s now considered a “genocide” in Western social justice movements that the children of natives with tiny languages spoken by one tribe of a few thousand people were forced to go into schools where they learned the main language of the country, leading to a bunch of minority languages going extinct. That’s pretty much what communist education did so by current Western standards Russia genocided over a hundred minority ethnic groups in the 20th century.

    Once the social justice people get going it will be no defense that it was done in the name of “progress” – building these schools was a leftist progressive project in the West, too, yet modern progressives expect us all to feel shame over past progressive projects.

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  27. @Randal
    I looked at the War is Boring article when it was linked the other day, but it mostly read as Israeli damage limitation propaganda. With such effective liars on all sides it's hard to be sure of anything much.

    In the end we will only get a clear idea of what actually happened, broadly, when we see to what extent if at all, and in what ways, Israeli behaviour (in terms of their heretofore regular air aggressions in Syria) is modified over the coming months.

    I would bet it was a win for the Syrians. I wouldn’t bet my house on it, but I’d be willing to bet some money here.

    The War Is Boring article admits that the Israeli retaliatory strikes only hit Damascus, i.e. close to the border. And that only for a few hours. Does it sound like someone undeterred? Granted, maybe they’ll find some better tactics next time.

    It’s possible that the hit on the Israeli plane was due to errors, but errors are bound to happen.

    A Hungarian guy (a distant acquaintance) on Facebook wrote that the Israeli videos were showing essentially some warehouses hit, but no Syrian air defense assets. I’m dumb as a rock in these matters, but maybe someone could look into the claims.

    In any event, this is what my acquaintance claims an S-200 air defense battery looks like. The Israeli videos can, I believe, be found on the internet. Although what I found were unclear if they showed the attack on the supposed drone center or on the air defense assets. But a lack of too many videos as well as the shortness of the attack points to the claims of “destroying half of the Syrian air defenses” being dumb lies.

    So my money is on the second Israeli attack being ineffectual, and the deterrence working for now. In other words, a Syrian (and Russian and Iranian) victory.

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    • Replies: @Randal

    I would bet it was a win for the Syrians. I wouldn’t bet my house on it, but I’d be willing to bet some money here.
     
    I tend to agree with you, so I won't be taking your bet. Maybe someone like Art Deco or iffen, but I'm not sure you'd have much chance of getting the money out of them even if you were ultimately proved right. They'd just point blank refuse to admit the truth.

    So my money is on the second Israeli attack being ineffectual, and the deterrence working for now. In other words, a Syrian (and Russian and Iranian) victory.
     
    If so, in a few weeks we'll have reasonably reliable info about reduced Israeli air attacks as a result (though they'll probably take other measures in response, such as stepping up their support for the head choppers in southern Syria).
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  28. @German_reader

    The South African developments should also be a strong redpill
     
    They might be if there's real violence, with blacks hacking up whites in front of tv cameras or something of the sort.
    I have to admit I'm almost hoping for that (yes, I know, pretty cynical)...given the most important graph in the world, this false perception of Africans as non-threatening victims needs to end.

    Whites have been murdered in South Africa for years, with genocide watch warning that they are very close to being genocided and you know what? No one cares. If you would say that in some circles, they would call you racist instead, beacuse why do you care about whites in SA, when blacks also murder blacks?

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    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    There are no good videos. We’re rooting for videos of whites being murdered (preferably brutally). I’d be willing to pay some money to a fund to increase smartphone penetration of South African black land redistribution activists.
    , @German_reader
    Well yes, but you could always say about those crimes that it's just "normal" murders, without any racial motivation. It might be different if it were undeniably linked to an anti-white political movement.
    , @iffen
    beacuse why do you care about whites in SA, when blacks also murder blacks?

    And the answer to this is?
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  29. @reiner Tor
    I agree to an extent, but there’s still the possibility of a lot of videos of violence reaching a large audience through social media. And heavy handed censorship might slowly make people ever more suspicious of official propaganda.

    But as I wrote, I don’t have high hopes of whites waking up.

    I agree – I mean, I don’t have high hopes of POLES waking up. We are doomed. Doomed as nations, doomed as a race, doomed as a culture.

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    • Agree: reiner Tor
    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    One can still hope against hope, though.
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  30. @szopen
    Whites have been murdered in South Africa for years, with genocide watch warning that they are very close to being genocided and you know what? No one cares. If you would say that in some circles, they would call you racist instead, beacuse why do you care about whites in SA, when blacks also murder blacks?

    There are no good videos. We’re rooting for videos of whites being murdered (preferably brutally). I’d be willing to pay some money to a fund to increase smartphone penetration of South African black land redistribution activists.

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  31. @szopen
    I agree - I mean, I don't have high hopes of POLES waking up. We are doomed. Doomed as nations, doomed as a race, doomed as a culture.

    One can still hope against hope, though.

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  32. @reiner Tor
    I would bet it was a win for the Syrians. I wouldn’t bet my house on it, but I’d be willing to bet some money here.

    The War Is Boring article admits that the Israeli retaliatory strikes only hit Damascus, i.e. close to the border. And that only for a few hours. Does it sound like someone undeterred? Granted, maybe they’ll find some better tactics next time.

    It’s possible that the hit on the Israeli plane was due to errors, but errors are bound to happen.

    A Hungarian guy (a distant acquaintance) on Facebook wrote that the Israeli videos were showing essentially some warehouses hit, but no Syrian air defense assets. I’m dumb as a rock in these matters, but maybe someone could look into the claims.

    In any event, this is what my acquaintance claims an S-200 air defense battery looks like. The Israeli videos can, I believe, be found on the internet. Although what I found were unclear if they showed the attack on the supposed drone center or on the air defense assets. But a lack of too many videos as well as the shortness of the attack points to the claims of “destroying half of the Syrian air defenses” being dumb lies.

    So my money is on the second Israeli attack being ineffectual, and the deterrence working for now. In other words, a Syrian (and Russian and Iranian) victory.

    I would bet it was a win for the Syrians. I wouldn’t bet my house on it, but I’d be willing to bet some money here.

    I tend to agree with you, so I won’t be taking your bet. Maybe someone like Art Deco or iffen, but I’m not sure you’d have much chance of getting the money out of them even if you were ultimately proved right. They’d just point blank refuse to admit the truth.

    So my money is on the second Israeli attack being ineffectual, and the deterrence working for now. In other words, a Syrian (and Russian and Iranian) victory.

    If so, in a few weeks we’ll have reasonably reliable info about reduced Israeli air attacks as a result (though they’ll probably take other measures in response, such as stepping up their support for the head choppers in southern Syria).

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  33. AP says:
    @melanf

    But how do you want to spin Bolshevism and the “reforms” of the 1990s as anti-Russian “genocide”
     
    Well, if Stalin collectivization in the West is officially called genocide, the reforms of the 90s with a much greater reason can be considered genocide (organized by America)

    Unless you want to push all responsibility onto non-Russian minorities (Jewish Bolsheviks and oligarchs, Latvian riflemen, Stalin’s Georgian clique) or external actors (imperial Germany sending Lenin to Russia, the US pushing privatization),
     

    Probably over time it would be like this (except Stalin). This propaganda is quite consistent with the standards of the modern "Politics of memory"

    Well, if Stalin collectivization in the West is officially called genocide, the reforms of the 90s with a much greater reason can be considered genocide (organized by America)

    Because confiscating food and starving people to death literally, is the same as collapse in birth rate and people doing stuff like choosing to drink themselves to death because they feel nihilistic and bad. Perhaps you will also compare Russia in the 90s to the Holocaust?

    There is clearly a question of whether Ukrainians, or Kazakhs, were targeted for their ethnicity (no direct evidence that they were) but it’s widely accepted that government policies resulted in starvation. No Russian government agency was forcibly aborting Russian kids or force-feeding birth control to Russian women or forcing alcohol down Russians’ throats, but Soviet government workers were confiscating grain from farmers, were shooting those who resisted, etc.

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    • Replies: @Beckow

    confiscating food and starving people to death
     
    If that is genocide - and it might be - then all of European history is one long genocide. The way it worked in the Middle Ages and all the way through 19th century was that landlords 'confiscated' the food, and if the peasants starved, well, too bad, their own problem. Look it up, it used to happen regularly especially during bad harvest years all over Europe. Starvation was ever-present for hundreds of years. We don't like to recall it because it makes the 'horrible' 20th century not that 'horrible' by comparison.

    Poland and Ukraine were among the most suffering areas. If an economic system is based on what is in effect a 'genocide', should we build museums about it? Would anyone take it seriously? The population in Ukraine and Kazakhstan went up between 1918 and 1941, so if there was a 'genocide' it was not very genociadial.

    In contrast the Irish famine in 1840's cut population by more than half and even today Ireland has fewer people than before the famine. Genocide? It would be impolite to accuse the British of something like that, it was, of course, 'more complex'. As we know, 'complexity' only exists in the West. Elsewhere it is all very straight-forward and no complexity is ever allowed to muddy up the narrative...

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  34. @reiner Tor
    Regarding the here no longer mentioned downing of the Israeli jet. Apparently the Israelis lied in some things. Their planes supposedly attacked from Lebanese and Jordanian airspace, but the targets were I think 350 kilometers from the border while their longest range weapons have a range of 250 kilometers. So they must have entered Syrian airspace. Their videos of the retaliatory attacks show some warehouses destroyed, but obviously not air defense assets. The death of the Syrian major general and the pro-Iranian militia leader are something I only read about in the War Is Boring article but not elsewhere. Are these things even confirmed? If they are, were they killed by the Israelis? How do we know it? I’d think the Israelis simply took credit for it.

    Regarding the here no longer mentioned downing of the Israeli jet. Apparently the Israelis lied in some things. Their planes supposedly attacked from Lebanese and Jordanian airspace, but the targets were I think 350 kilometers from the border while their longest range weapons have a range of 250 kilometers. So they must have entered Syrian airspace. Their videos of the retaliatory attacks show some warehouses destroyed, but obviously not air defense assets. The death of the Syrian major general and the pro-Iranian militia leader are something I only read about in the War Is Boring article but not elsewhere. Are these things even confirmed? If they are, were they killed by the Israelis? How do we know it? I’d think the Israelis simply took credit for it.

    You need to read the articles in Hebrew (or those Hebrew articles translated on the Russia-Israeli sites). The American articles always misreport all the substance of stories as they cannot read Hebrew. Places like War is Boring are just taking a few ideas from some other English sites. The information on the Hebrew sites and on the television reports tells a lot more details about these stories as you would expect.

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    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    So what did they tell now? Don’t they have official military censors censoring these news stories? Didn’t they really announce how their air force destroyed half of the Syrian air defense assets? Would it be legal to doubt it, if they indeed announced it? I mean, wouldn’t the censor censor all the doubting articles from the press? Or if reality was A, but it’s censored and the official story was instead B, then it’s illegal to outright publish A, but it’s fully legal (and practiced) to just speculate about how B must be garbage and instead reality is A?

    Otherwise, I’d need to be pretty extremely interested in Middle Eastern news stories to learn Hebrew only for that...
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  35. @reiner Tor
    InoSMI is actually a very innovative and great propaganda tool. I often think that the heavy handed approach of the communist regimes never really worked, and allowing multiple points of view and critical opinions to be read by the more sophisticated classes actually strengthens the propaganda. This is why western propaganda is so effective, because it creates the illusion of being well informed and a “critical thinker.” It also creates the possibility of being a regime supporter while simultaneously keeping your distance and independence.

    The communists always demanded total compliance with their ideology in the public sphere, which meant even slightly sympathetic people (famous writers and the like) had to pretend to be fully communist. But it was always contrived and fake, and no one believed it at all. So it wasn’t so effective because you couldn’t tell if someone really had something good to say about communism or was just forced to do so.

    InoSMI is actually a very innovative and great propaganda tool. I often think that the heavy handed approach of the communist regimes never really worked, and allowing multiple points of view and critical opinions to be read by the more sophisticated classes actually strengthens the propaganda.

    Although they did a job in terms of putting a lot of effort into the site every day, it is clearly a failure because hardly anyone reads it. (It gets around 30,000 clicks a day from within Russia itself. The whole website is clicked less than the typical (single – i.e. one video) popular youtuber video).

    Reason people are not reading it is that all stories are about Russia – so it’s kind of a niche interest (reading foreign opinion articles about Russia), which is ‘getting boring’ fast (foreign views of country can only be interesting for so long).

    Also people who are so curious to read foreign media, can usually read a foreign language enough to go to the originating sites where those articles are arising.

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    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    300,000 daily visitors, not 30,000 clicks. Though true, it’s not the most popular website ever, at least not for a country the size of Russia. But probably a lot of people read them at least occasionally, and it’s important that it’s there. A large part of propaganda is to convince its subjects that they are well informed and not cut off from any significant piece of information. So they won’t get suspicious of the government.
    , @Felix Keverich
    It's more popular, than most opposition media in Russia. I definitely wouldn't call it a failure.
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  36. @Anatoly Karlin
    Well, there are East Europeans who say "Soviets" perpetrated genocide against them - including some nationalities who themselves were overrepresented in soviet power structures and security organs - so why can't Russians use the same formulation? The joint Nazi-Soviet genocide against the Russian people.

    It will be lavishly equipped, have sad music, 4D media presentations, databases of victims on the wall, it will occupy a central space in Moscow.

    The joint Nazi-Soviet genocide against the Russian people.

    It will be lavishly equipped, have sad music, 4D media presentations, databases of victims on the wall, it will occupy a central space in Moscow.

    Lenin is still in Red Square and everyone goes crazy if anyone suggests reburying him. Such a museum, with the concept of equivalence with Nazis and Soviets, would not be considered politically acceptable.

    parallel universe I see this as possible is a world where Ksenia Sobchak is president, and in that case we would have far more significant problems to worry about.

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  37. @Polish Perspective
    I largely agree with you, but I still think AK's point stands. Naturally the white South Africans would prefer to live in Ireland or the Netherlands or the UK over, say, Poland. They already know English, and Afrikaans is very close linguistically to Dutch IIRC. On top of that, those countries are wealthier, too.

    But there would still be a propaganda victory, because these people do deserve to be given refugee status for genuine persecution. I am personally skeptical over just how many would take the offer. A lot of Boers are religiously fundamentalist and many of them have roots going back many centuries. They will quite literally rather be dead than moving out. Most of the people who had more tenuous feelings towards the nation already left in the 90s and early 2000s. Chain migration works for whites, too, you know. It wouldn't be that hard for the numerous white South Africans in Australia or the UK to bring along their extended family if they really put their minds to it.

    One of the most redplling but also blackpilling things about South Africa is how it underscores that there is no Magic Threshold below which whites will suddenly "wake up". You can be 5%-10% of the population, brutalised, and still be largely bluepilled on race, which is what the Boers in SA are. This only underlines the importance of metapolitics and to never, ever take anything for granted. A lot of US WN made the same mistake with Trump. Just elect him and watch him fight for you. Then he completely sold out to ZOG. Now some of the retards are refusing to admit it, and attack those who see it.

    There are simply no short cuts. One has to build an ethnocentric cultural foundation and it will be arduous work, spanning decades. White flight, magically hoping for a "sudden collapse" or for there to be some kind of "magic threshold" when the white population reaches a certain percentage and "wakes up", none of those things will save you. As South Africa shows very clearly.

    The final lesson on South Africa is that the architects of Apartheid failed not because they were too cruel, but because they weren't radical enough. They should have gone for complete separation, in different countries. Instead they floundered and went for partial separation (read: segregation) in the same country. That failure to do final closure is now coming back to haunt them. It is also why civic nationalism, even when laced with racial realism, will always fail.

    I largely agree with you, but I still think AK’s point stands. Naturally the white South Africans would prefer to live in Ireland or the Netherlands or the UK over, say, Poland. They already know English, and Afrikaans is very close linguistically to Dutch IIRC. On top of that, those countries are wealthier, too.

    But there would still be a propaganda victory, because these people do deserve to be given refugee status for genuine persecution. I am personally skeptical over just how many would take the offer. A lot of Boers are religiously fundamentalist and many of them have roots going back many centuries. They will quite literally rather be dead than moving out. Most of the people who had more tenuous feelings towards the nation already left in the 90s and early 2000s. Chain migration works for whites, too, you know. It wouldn’t be that hard for the numerous white South Africans in Australia or the UK to bring along their extended family if they really put their minds to it.

    They already can live abroad if they want to, and they are coming into Australia and the UK every year.

    South Africa is not the USSR – nobody is stopping people from emigrating. The idea might make sense from convenience perspective – since a EU passport is more convenient in allowing you to live in EU countries like Ireland/UK. But it’s not difficult to move there if they wish anyway, you just need to apply for job.

    I think it’s actually a lot easier for South Africans to leave than for Ukrainians, as the South Africans have economic resources. The reason South Africans are staying behind, is probably because they don’t want to leave, they have good jobs, good assets, or a good standard of living in South Africa. If South Africa economy totally collapses in Venezuela style, only this could change.

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    • Replies: @reiner Tor

    South Africans have economic resources
     
    A lot of South African whites have less money than Ukrainians. There are really bad slums of white South Africans. Even the better off among them often have surprisingly little money. Yes, some are rich, but on average they are pretty poor by Western European standards.
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  38. @Dmitry

    InoSMI is actually a very innovative and great propaganda tool. I often think that the heavy handed approach of the communist regimes never really worked, and allowing multiple points of view and critical opinions to be read by the more sophisticated classes actually strengthens the propaganda.
     
    Although they did a job in terms of putting a lot of effort into the site every day, it is clearly a failure because hardly anyone reads it. (It gets around 30,000 clicks a day from within Russia itself. The whole website is clicked less than the typical (single - i.e. one video) popular youtuber video).

    Reason people are not reading it is that all stories are about Russia - so it's kind of a niche interest (reading foreign opinion articles about Russia), which is 'getting boring' fast (foreign views of country can only be interesting for so long).

    Also people who are so curious to read foreign media, can usually read a foreign language enough to go to the originating sites where those articles are arising.

    300,000 daily visitors, not 30,000 clicks. Though true, it’s not the most popular website ever, at least not for a country the size of Russia. But probably a lot of people read them at least occasionally, and it’s important that it’s there. A large part of propaganda is to convince its subjects that they are well informed and not cut off from any significant piece of information. So they won’t get suspicious of the government.

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    • Replies: @Dmitry

    300,000 daily visitors, not 30,000 clicks. Though true, it’s not the most popular website ever, at least not for a country the size of Russia.
     
    Around 70,000 visitors a day - 43% of those from Russia.

    But probably a lot of people read them at least occasionally, and it’s important that it’s there. A large part of propaganda is to convince its subjects that they are well informed and not cut off from any significant piece of information. So they won’t get suspicious of the government.

     

    I don't know anyone who reads the site - I heard it first mentioned on here. And now it's reported in the Western media (this week). On their social media accounts, they have followers - but not a large number, under ten thousand.
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  39. @Dmitry

    InoSMI is actually a very innovative and great propaganda tool. I often think that the heavy handed approach of the communist regimes never really worked, and allowing multiple points of view and critical opinions to be read by the more sophisticated classes actually strengthens the propaganda.
     
    Although they did a job in terms of putting a lot of effort into the site every day, it is clearly a failure because hardly anyone reads it. (It gets around 30,000 clicks a day from within Russia itself. The whole website is clicked less than the typical (single - i.e. one video) popular youtuber video).

    Reason people are not reading it is that all stories are about Russia - so it's kind of a niche interest (reading foreign opinion articles about Russia), which is 'getting boring' fast (foreign views of country can only be interesting for so long).

    Also people who are so curious to read foreign media, can usually read a foreign language enough to go to the originating sites where those articles are arising.

    It’s more popular, than most opposition media in Russia. I definitely wouldn’t call it a failure.

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  40. @Dmitry

    Regarding the here no longer mentioned downing of the Israeli jet. Apparently the Israelis lied in some things. Their planes supposedly attacked from Lebanese and Jordanian airspace, but the targets were I think 350 kilometers from the border while their longest range weapons have a range of 250 kilometers. So they must have entered Syrian airspace. Their videos of the retaliatory attacks show some warehouses destroyed, but obviously not air defense assets. The death of the Syrian major general and the pro-Iranian militia leader are something I only read about in the War Is Boring article but not elsewhere. Are these things even confirmed? If they are, were they killed by the Israelis? How do we know it? I’d think the Israelis simply took credit for it.
     
    You need to read the articles in Hebrew (or those Hebrew articles translated on the Russia-Israeli sites). The American articles always misreport all the substance of stories as they cannot read Hebrew. Places like War is Boring are just taking a few ideas from some other English sites. The information on the Hebrew sites and on the television reports tells a lot more details about these stories as you would expect.

    So what did they tell now? Don’t they have official military censors censoring these news stories? Didn’t they really announce how their air force destroyed half of the Syrian air defense assets? Would it be legal to doubt it, if they indeed announced it? I mean, wouldn’t the censor censor all the doubting articles from the press? Or if reality was A, but it’s censored and the official story was instead B, then it’s illegal to outright publish A, but it’s fully legal (and practiced) to just speculate about how B must be garbage and instead reality is A?

    Otherwise, I’d need to be pretty extremely interested in Middle Eastern news stories to learn Hebrew only for that…

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    • Replies: @Dmitry

    So what did they tell now? Don’t they have official military censors censoring these news stories? Didn’t they really announce how their air force destroyed half of the Syrian air defense assets? Would it be legal to doubt it, if they indeed announced it? I mean, wouldn’t the censor censor all the doubting articles from the press? Or if reality was A, but it’s censored and the official story was instead B, then it’s illegal to outright publish A, but it’s fully legal (and practiced) to just speculate about how B must be garbage and instead reality is A?

    Otherwise, I’d need to be pretty extremely interested in Middle Eastern news stories to learn Hebrew only for that…
     

    Sorry I haven't personally read anything about the story as I was not so interested in it.

    But I saw there were endless stories and articles about the investigations into it on all the Hebrew sites (and Russian-Israel websites often also translate those articles) and the television.

    (Interestingly I was in Israel when it happened - and the television there was talking about it for hours non-stop interviewing people endlessly.)

    I might go and try to read something about the story later if I have time (I need to practice reading Hebrew). There will be surely a lot of details about the case. I think they actually like publishing lots of details in the open about this kind of mistake or blunder.

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  41. @reiner Tor
    300,000 daily visitors, not 30,000 clicks. Though true, it’s not the most popular website ever, at least not for a country the size of Russia. But probably a lot of people read them at least occasionally, and it’s important that it’s there. A large part of propaganda is to convince its subjects that they are well informed and not cut off from any significant piece of information. So they won’t get suspicious of the government.

    300,000 daily visitors, not 30,000 clicks. Though true, it’s not the most popular website ever, at least not for a country the size of Russia.

    Around 70,000 visitors a day – 43% of those from Russia.

    But probably a lot of people read them at least occasionally, and it’s important that it’s there. A large part of propaganda is to convince its subjects that they are well informed and not cut off from any significant piece of information. So they won’t get suspicious of the government.

    I don’t know anyone who reads the site – I heard it first mentioned on here. And now it’s reported in the Western media (this week). On their social media accounts, they have followers – but not a large number, under ten thousand.

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    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    Where did you get your data? I got it from the CSM article linked by Anatoly.
    , @reiner Tor
    I guess you speak English well, you are not really the target audience for this site.
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  42. @Dmitry

    I largely agree with you, but I still think AK’s point stands. Naturally the white South Africans would prefer to live in Ireland or the Netherlands or the UK over, say, Poland. They already know English, and Afrikaans is very close linguistically to Dutch IIRC. On top of that, those countries are wealthier, too.

    But there would still be a propaganda victory, because these people do deserve to be given refugee status for genuine persecution. I am personally skeptical over just how many would take the offer. A lot of Boers are religiously fundamentalist and many of them have roots going back many centuries. They will quite literally rather be dead than moving out. Most of the people who had more tenuous feelings towards the nation already left in the 90s and early 2000s. Chain migration works for whites, too, you know. It wouldn’t be that hard for the numerous white South Africans in Australia or the UK to bring along their extended family if they really put their minds to it.
     

    They already can live abroad if they want to, and they are coming into Australia and the UK every year.

    South Africa is not the USSR - nobody is stopping people from emigrating. The idea might make sense from convenience perspective - since a EU passport is more convenient in allowing you to live in EU countries like Ireland/UK. But it's not difficult to move there if they wish anyway, you just need to apply for job.

    I think it's actually a lot easier for South Africans to leave than for Ukrainians, as the South Africans have economic resources. The reason South Africans are staying behind, is probably because they don't want to leave, they have good jobs, good assets, or a good standard of living in South Africa. If South Africa economy totally collapses in Venezuela style, only this could change.

    South Africans have economic resources

    A lot of South African whites have less money than Ukrainians. There are really bad slums of white South Africans. Even the better off among them often have surprisingly little money. Yes, some are rich, but on average they are pretty poor by Western European standards.

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    • Agree: dmitry
    • Replies: @Dmitry

    A lot of South African whites have less money than Ukrainians. There are really bad slums of white South Africans. Even the better off among them often have surprisingly little money. Yes, some are rich, but on average they are pretty poor by Western European standards.

     

    And I guess the richer ones have better security as well compared to the proletarians, but also a giant target since according to the house size some of these guys obviously have things worth stealing.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R4f9mM4I900

    , @Dmitry

    A lot of South African whites have less money than Ukrainians. There are really bad slums of white South Africans. Even the better off among them often have surprisingly little money. Yes, some are rich, but on average they are pretty poor by Western European standards.
     
    And the poorer living standards in South Africa is here as well, as you said:


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jj84Sw1x2po

    Certainly seems like interesting country to visit for a - short holiday.

    , @iffen
    It's kind of hard to emigrate and take a few hundred acres of farmland with you, even if it is some of the best in the world.

    RE: Changed attitudes toward eradication of whites in SA.

    If the extremely slow motion process that has been in place for some years now, coupled with the example of Zimbabwe didn't register, why exactly would anyone expect a change in attitudes?

    , @Philip Owen
    I have talked to Afrikaner farmers thinking of Russia. They can't sell their land for realistic prices. Russian Far East does not appeal.
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  43. @reiner Tor
    So what did they tell now? Don’t they have official military censors censoring these news stories? Didn’t they really announce how their air force destroyed half of the Syrian air defense assets? Would it be legal to doubt it, if they indeed announced it? I mean, wouldn’t the censor censor all the doubting articles from the press? Or if reality was A, but it’s censored and the official story was instead B, then it’s illegal to outright publish A, but it’s fully legal (and practiced) to just speculate about how B must be garbage and instead reality is A?

    Otherwise, I’d need to be pretty extremely interested in Middle Eastern news stories to learn Hebrew only for that...

    So what did they tell now? Don’t they have official military censors censoring these news stories? Didn’t they really announce how their air force destroyed half of the Syrian air defense assets? Would it be legal to doubt it, if they indeed announced it? I mean, wouldn’t the censor censor all the doubting articles from the press? Or if reality was A, but it’s censored and the official story was instead B, then it’s illegal to outright publish A, but it’s fully legal (and practiced) to just speculate about how B must be garbage and instead reality is A?

    Otherwise, I’d need to be pretty extremely interested in Middle Eastern news stories to learn Hebrew only for that…

    Sorry I haven’t personally read anything about the story as I was not so interested in it.

    But I saw there were endless stories and articles about the investigations into it on all the Hebrew sites (and Russian-Israel websites often also translate those articles) and the television.

    (Interestingly I was in Israel when it happened – and the television there was talking about it for hours non-stop interviewing people endlessly.)

    I might go and try to read something about the story later if I have time (I need to practice reading Hebrew). There will be surely a lot of details about the case. I think they actually like publishing lots of details in the open about this kind of mistake or blunder.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Dmitry
    Reiner I found this new report within this week (Sunday).

    It is reporting what the military say:
    Apparently it's normal for the missiles to be fired on them in Syria and the pilots expect that they will be targeted and risk to their lives.

    The pilots failed to take an immediate evasive action after they were locked onto by missiles, but at first tried to continue their mission. The other planes discontinued the mission and took some kind of evasive action.

    In this incident the number of total missiles fired, was more than usual (27 missiles), but the pilots had been briefed and should expect the danger of the missiles.

    They say that the decision to eject was the right and saved the lives of the pilots. Backup planes had to complete the mission of the plane that was shot down and had to take evasive action to avoid the missiles threat.


    https://news.walla.co.il/item/3138337

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  44. @Dmitry

    300,000 daily visitors, not 30,000 clicks. Though true, it’s not the most popular website ever, at least not for a country the size of Russia.
     
    Around 70,000 visitors a day - 43% of those from Russia.

    But probably a lot of people read them at least occasionally, and it’s important that it’s there. A large part of propaganda is to convince its subjects that they are well informed and not cut off from any significant piece of information. So they won’t get suspicious of the government.

     

    I don't know anyone who reads the site - I heard it first mentioned on here. And now it's reported in the Western media (this week). On their social media accounts, they have followers - but not a large number, under ten thousand.

    Where did you get your data? I got it from the CSM article linked by Anatoly.

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    • Replies: @Dmitry

    Where did you get your data? I got it from the CSM article linked by Anatoly.

     

    I was just looking at the traffic information for the page.

    I made a serious mistake in my above comment when I said that not many people follow their account on social media though (I wish I could edit posts here). Actually it's kind of popular on VK, with around 80,000 followers and some lively discussions.
    https://vk.com/inosmi

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  45. @Dmitry

    300,000 daily visitors, not 30,000 clicks. Though true, it’s not the most popular website ever, at least not for a country the size of Russia.
     
    Around 70,000 visitors a day - 43% of those from Russia.

    But probably a lot of people read them at least occasionally, and it’s important that it’s there. A large part of propaganda is to convince its subjects that they are well informed and not cut off from any significant piece of information. So they won’t get suspicious of the government.

     

    I don't know anyone who reads the site - I heard it first mentioned on here. And now it's reported in the Western media (this week). On their social media accounts, they have followers - but not a large number, under ten thousand.

    I guess you speak English well, you are not really the target audience for this site.

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  46. @Dmitry

    So what did they tell now? Don’t they have official military censors censoring these news stories? Didn’t they really announce how their air force destroyed half of the Syrian air defense assets? Would it be legal to doubt it, if they indeed announced it? I mean, wouldn’t the censor censor all the doubting articles from the press? Or if reality was A, but it’s censored and the official story was instead B, then it’s illegal to outright publish A, but it’s fully legal (and practiced) to just speculate about how B must be garbage and instead reality is A?

    Otherwise, I’d need to be pretty extremely interested in Middle Eastern news stories to learn Hebrew only for that…
     

    Sorry I haven't personally read anything about the story as I was not so interested in it.

    But I saw there were endless stories and articles about the investigations into it on all the Hebrew sites (and Russian-Israel websites often also translate those articles) and the television.

    (Interestingly I was in Israel when it happened - and the television there was talking about it for hours non-stop interviewing people endlessly.)

    I might go and try to read something about the story later if I have time (I need to practice reading Hebrew). There will be surely a lot of details about the case. I think they actually like publishing lots of details in the open about this kind of mistake or blunder.

    Reiner I found this new report within this week (Sunday).

    It is reporting what the military say:
    Apparently it’s normal for the missiles to be fired on them in Syria and the pilots expect that they will be targeted and risk to their lives.

    The pilots failed to take an immediate evasive action after they were locked onto by missiles, but at first tried to continue their mission. The other planes discontinued the mission and took some kind of evasive action.

    In this incident the number of total missiles fired, was more than usual (27 missiles), but the pilots had been briefed and should expect the danger of the missiles.

    They say that the decision to eject was the right and saved the lives of the pilots. Backup planes had to complete the mission of the plane that was shot down and had to take evasive action to avoid the missiles threat.

    https://news.walla.co.il/item/3138337

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    • Replies: @LondonBob
    BS cover up.

    Someone who's nephew flies jets from the airbase they were shot down from says it was completely unexpected and the pilots weren't even briefed properly about Syrian and Russian air defence systems.

    The IAF got complacent and failed to acknowledge the rules of the game have changed.
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  47. @reiner Tor
    Where did you get your data? I got it from the CSM article linked by Anatoly.

    Where did you get your data? I got it from the CSM article linked by Anatoly.

    I was just looking at the traffic information for the page.

    I made a serious mistake in my above comment when I said that not many people follow their account on social media though (I wish I could edit posts here). Actually it’s kind of popular on VK, with around 80,000 followers and some lively discussions.

    https://vk.com/inosmi

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  48. @reiner Tor

    South Africans have economic resources
     
    A lot of South African whites have less money than Ukrainians. There are really bad slums of white South Africans. Even the better off among them often have surprisingly little money. Yes, some are rich, but on average they are pretty poor by Western European standards.

    A lot of South African whites have less money than Ukrainians. There are really bad slums of white South Africans. Even the better off among them often have surprisingly little money. Yes, some are rich, but on average they are pretty poor by Western European standards.

    And I guess the richer ones have better security as well compared to the proletarians, but also a giant target since according to the house size some of these guys obviously have things worth stealing.

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  49. @reiner Tor

    South Africans have economic resources
     
    A lot of South African whites have less money than Ukrainians. There are really bad slums of white South Africans. Even the better off among them often have surprisingly little money. Yes, some are rich, but on average they are pretty poor by Western European standards.

    A lot of South African whites have less money than Ukrainians. There are really bad slums of white South Africans. Even the better off among them often have surprisingly little money. Yes, some are rich, but on average they are pretty poor by Western European standards.

    And the poorer living standards in South Africa is here as well, as you said:

    Certainly seems like interesting country to visit for a – short holiday.

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    • Replies: @for-the-record
    Certainly seems like interesting country to visit for a – short holiday.

    Everybody I know who has been there recently has had very good things to say, although they are obviously aware of the high crime rate. Where I live (a Portuguese island) everyone has relatives who have migrated to South Africa and/or Venezuela (not exactly certain why it is precisely these two countries). While thousands have come back in the last few years from Venezuela because of the deteriorating conditions there, virtually no one has come back from South Africa.
    , @Philip Owen
    Steelworks shed labour everywhere. Steel and coal towns are hard to revive. Whites used to have priority for jobs.
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  50. @Polish Perspective

    "Polish minister calls for commemoration of non-Jewish victims of WWII. "

    Envious. ROGPR has long argued that a Russian national state needs its own genocide museum. Russians were the victims of three genocides in the past century.
     

    Why do you think there hasn't been a movement on it? Do you think it is mainly elite objections? If so, what would they be (in your view)? Are there grassroots movements among ordinary Russians for one?

    The US is so zogged that it is telling Poland that it shouldn’t count on a meeting with Trump or Pence because of their anti-Polish holocaust law.
     
    I'm not surprised. I've been following the complete and utter degeneration of the Trump presidency quite closely. Hunter Wallace at Occidental Dissent has been great, even if he has been attacked viciously by the Trumptards. Really since Bannon was fired it was all downhill, and even Bannon had severe problems. He tried to fundraise among Jewish GOP donors to unseat "the establishment". Why would the establishment fundraise to unseat themselves? The idiot Bannon never knew what hit him and he got purged from Breitbart within six months. FYI:

    https://i.imgur.com/aKQ2G6v.png

    When Mike Enoch talks about the 'kosher sandwich' of public "debate" in America, this is what he means. That's why this news is the least surprising news ever.

    As for Poland's chances to win this fight, I am skeptical in the long term. Poles are quite liberal and very obsessed to be liked by the West. I don't view Russia as hostile, but as things stand, it is not actively our friend either.

    I was impressed by Germany's actions during the entire affair and it once again re-affirmed the flank of those, tiny in the public sphere, who call for closer relations with Germany over that of America. Germany will never be as important as the US in military terms - for obvious reasons - but I am now at the point where I believe we can only rely on an independent nuclear deterrent and nothing else.

    Still, there are limits to ZOG's actions as well. They are absolutely obsessed with destroying Russia at any price. A more pro-Russian Poland would be a disaster in their eyes, which is why Poland's hand is strangely better than it would have been otherwise. This is why I fully expect a concerted campaign to re-elect PO and the previous ZOG lapdogs(PiS are too, but not even to the same extreme extent. Sikorski openly talks of appeasing the Jewish diaspora in his latest speech). If internal change does not come about, we will be at a deadlock, I think, for years to come.

    If nothing else, the whole affair is slowly redpilling a lot of Poles, who have been indoctrinated with one-sided Judeophilia in their schools since the fall of the wall. Turns out that those who we are told are our "brotherly peoples" like to spit in our face and for the longest time we have done nothing about it. This long running controversy is filling forcing people to deal with this fantasy, but the process will be long and I don't expect any immediate returns on investment in terms of changed (and lasting) attitudes until years into the future.

    Why do you think there hasn’t been a movement on it? Do you think it is mainly elite objections? If so, what would they be (in your view)? Are there grassroots movements among ordinary Russians for one?

    I think it’s a fair idea from the victims’ position. But the perspective is not the official one, but more of a liberal/opposition one. It wouldn’t serve official interests or to build the official viewpoint. The historical museums usually have some patriotic-building function.

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  51. @Dmitry

    A lot of South African whites have less money than Ukrainians. There are really bad slums of white South Africans. Even the better off among them often have surprisingly little money. Yes, some are rich, but on average they are pretty poor by Western European standards.
     
    And the poorer living standards in South Africa is here as well, as you said:


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jj84Sw1x2po

    Certainly seems like interesting country to visit for a - short holiday.

    Certainly seems like interesting country to visit for a – short holiday.

    Everybody I know who has been there recently has had very good things to say, although they are obviously aware of the high crime rate. Where I live (a Portuguese island) everyone has relatives who have migrated to South Africa and/or Venezuela (not exactly certain why it is precisely these two countries). While thousands have come back in the last few years from Venezuela because of the deteriorating conditions there, virtually no one has come back from South Africa.

    Read More
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  52. The best way to describe the situation in South Africa for whites is to use the saying: “Things are not as good and not as bad as they seem”. The pop culture that whites consume in other places in the world is the same for South Africa, that means there are plenty of SJW type whites, to insulate themselves from the realities race and success most whites simply do not engage in politics other than cuckservatism lite (and even that is becoming risque).

    As for the poor whites, who would want them, they are white and poor, which means for the establishment they lower than the untouchables of India.

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  53. @Polish Perspective

    They might be if there’s real violence, with blacks hacking up whites in front of tv cameras or something of the sort.
     
    I guess I am far more cynical than you, then. If that were to happen, I fully expect the MSM to go into a frenzy trying to justify the murders. It won't be an open "they deserved it". It will be "whites created a systematic oppression of blacks through loot and plunder for centuries. You may now condemn these base instincts, but what are they if not the spasms of retribution from a much weaker party trampled upon with your silent approval?" In other words: they deserved it, but with more rhetorical flourish.

    At this stage, it is impossible to be in any major Western MSM position and be openly pro-white interests. The best reporter on South Africa in the West is a Chinese reporter at Sydney Morning Herald, who Steve Sailer is also quoting in his blogpost about it. There used to be a few voices in the UK press in particular(Telegraph was a notable example), but that is fading now. My guess is that it was reporters who had South African family members (either who lived there or those who married in). Something like 800K white South Africans left for the UK from the late 80s up until the early 2000s IIRC.

    Given the extreme hatred shown towards Western whites in your own countries from your own media, I would be astonished if white South Africans were shown any different courtesy.

    You’re probably mostly right; but on the other hand, even on Germany’s notoriously pc public broadcasting services I’ve seen reports in the past about poor South African whites who live in shantytowns and are basically trapped in South Africa (horrifying situation if you think about it) which weren’t completely without sympathy for the whites. The whole murders of white farmers business has also gained at least some attention even in mainstream media. So I’m not sure if it could really all be covered up if militant black nationalists engage in major anti-white violence.

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  54. @reiner Tor
    I like the China article, but I don’t like things like that:

    “Mao was not a dictator until 1966.”

    His power was limited after 1962 and the seven thousand cadres conference, but he was a dictator before that, able to get any of his opponents marginalized and killed. And of course most national leaders are not capable of unleashing something like the cultural revolution.

    His power was limited after 1962 and the seven thousand cadres conference, but he was a dictator before that, able to get any of his opponents marginalized and killed. And of course most national leaders are not capable of unleashing something like the cultural revolution.

    Just like every PRC leader.

    The People’s Republic of China is a socialist state under the people’s democratic dictatorship

    http://en.people.cn/constitution/constitution.html

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  55. @melanf

    But how do you want to spin Bolshevism and the “reforms” of the 1990s as anti-Russian “genocide”
     
    Well, if Stalin collectivization in the West is officially called genocide, the reforms of the 90s with a much greater reason can be considered genocide (organized by America)

    Unless you want to push all responsibility onto non-Russian minorities (Jewish Bolsheviks and oligarchs, Latvian riflemen, Stalin’s Georgian clique) or external actors (imperial Germany sending Lenin to Russia, the US pushing privatization),
     

    Probably over time it would be like this (except Stalin). This propaganda is quite consistent with the standards of the modern "Politics of memory"

    Well, if Stalin collectivization in the West is officially called genocide

    My impression is most serious Western academics don’t regard the collectivization famines of the early 1930s as intentional genocide like some Ukrainian nationalists claim, so I don’t see where that “officially called genocide” comes from…have there been any resolutions by Western legislatures to that effect (like there have been about the Armenian genocide)?

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    • Replies: @melanf

    I don’t see where that “officially called genocide” comes from…have there been any resolutions by Western legislatures to that effect (like there have been about the Armenian genocide)?
     
    "Saskatchewan became the first jurisdiction in North America and the first province in Canada to recognize the Holodomor as a genocide.[144] The Ukrainian Famine and Genocide (Holodomor) Memorial Day Act was introduced in the Saskatchewan Legislature on May 6, 2008[145] and received royal assent on May 14, 2008."

    According to this, Russia has every reason to declare Yeltsin's "reforms" genocide, organized by the United States and the European Union. Accordingly, a law should be introduced punishing the denial of genocide, after which any Pro-Western political forces will go to prison forever (or even immediately to the gallows).
    The current authorities will not take such a step (they are too much connected with Yeltsin and still hope to cooperate with the West), but the next generation of politicians will probably take such steps (if of course we will avoid a thermonuclear war).
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  56. @Anatoly Karlin
    Well, there are East Europeans who say "Soviets" perpetrated genocide against them - including some nationalities who themselves were overrepresented in soviet power structures and security organs - so why can't Russians use the same formulation? The joint Nazi-Soviet genocide against the Russian people.

    It will be lavishly equipped, have sad music, 4D media presentations, databases of victims on the wall, it will occupy a central space in Moscow.

    Well, there are East Europeans who say “Soviets” perpetrated genocide against them

    Well yes, but they’re kind of dumb, and they don’t get that much sympathy outside of their own countries, few people buy their narrative.
    I can see where you’re coming from, since collective victimhood is a powerful tool in today’s identity debates…but still, can Russians really commit genocide against other Russians? And is that something Russian nationalists should dwell on? Seems doubtful to me.

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  57. @szopen
    Whites have been murdered in South Africa for years, with genocide watch warning that they are very close to being genocided and you know what? No one cares. If you would say that in some circles, they would call you racist instead, beacuse why do you care about whites in SA, when blacks also murder blacks?

    Well yes, but you could always say about those crimes that it’s just “normal” murders, without any racial motivation. It might be different if it were undeniably linked to an anti-white political movement.

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  58. This seems likely to be a source of trouble in the near future:

    Gazprom seeks to halt Ukraine gas contracts as dispute escalates

    Iirc there has been a recent step up in the US and US crony attempts to block Nord Stream 2, and some political strife over gas supplies in Ukraine will undoubtedly be used by the usual suspects to try to make trouble for Russia. On the other hand, it can cut both ways depending on how the dispute plays out.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Mitleser

    Stockholm arbitration court
     
    Accepting a Swedish court was a mistake.
    Sweden and Poland are architects of the EU Eastern neighborhood policy.
    Of course, Swedes would supprt UKR.
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  59. @AP

    Well, if Stalin collectivization in the West is officially called genocide, the reforms of the 90s with a much greater reason can be considered genocide (organized by America)
     
    Because confiscating food and starving people to death literally, is the same as collapse in birth rate and people doing stuff like choosing to drink themselves to death because they feel nihilistic and bad. Perhaps you will also compare Russia in the 90s to the Holocaust?

    There is clearly a question of whether Ukrainians, or Kazakhs, were targeted for their ethnicity (no direct evidence that they were) but it's widely accepted that government policies resulted in starvation. No Russian government agency was forcibly aborting Russian kids or force-feeding birth control to Russian women or forcing alcohol down Russians' throats, but Soviet government workers were confiscating grain from farmers, were shooting those who resisted, etc.

    confiscating food and starving people to death

    If that is genocide – and it might be – then all of European history is one long genocide. The way it worked in the Middle Ages and all the way through 19th century was that landlords ‘confiscated’ the food, and if the peasants starved, well, too bad, their own problem. Look it up, it used to happen regularly especially during bad harvest years all over Europe. Starvation was ever-present for hundreds of years. We don’t like to recall it because it makes the ‘horrible’ 20th century not that ‘horrible’ by comparison.

    Poland and Ukraine were among the most suffering areas. If an economic system is based on what is in effect a ‘genocide’, should we build museums about it? Would anyone take it seriously? The population in Ukraine and Kazakhstan went up between 1918 and 1941, so if there was a ‘genocide’ it was not very genociadial.

    In contrast the Irish famine in 1840′s cut population by more than half and even today Ireland has fewer people than before the famine. Genocide? It would be impolite to accuse the British of something like that, it was, of course, ‘more complex’. As we know, ‘complexity’ only exists in the West. Elsewhere it is all very straight-forward and no complexity is ever allowed to muddy up the narrative…

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    • Replies: @German_reader

    It would be impolite to accuse the British of something like that, it was, of course, ‘more complex’.
     
    But there are people who claim the 1840s famine was a genocide:
    https://www.independent.ie/entertainment/books/was-the-famine-genocide-by-the-british-28954929.html

    https://www.irishcentral.com/news/proving-the-irish-famine-was-genocide-by-the-british-tim-pat-coogan-moves-famine-history-unto-a-new-plane-181984471-238161151

    And it isn't generally claimed in the West that the collectivization famines were genocide in the sense that Russians deliberately targeted other ethnicities for extermination by starvation...it seems to me the common interpretation is rather that the Soviets (of all ethnic backgrounds) in their quest for modernization waged war against the traditional countryside and didn't care if their policies killed lots of people (so more of a class issue - privileged urban industrial workers versus peasants regarded as backwards and standing in the way of progress - than an ethnic issue).
    It should also be noted that labeling of those famines as genocide is often criticized, at times quite vehemently so, because it supposedly relativizes the uniqueness of the Holocaust.
    , @Randal

    Genocide? It would be impolite to accuse the British of something like that, it was, of course, ‘more complex’. As we know, ‘complexity’ only exists in the West. Elsewhere it is all very straight-forward and no complexity is ever allowed to muddy up the narrative…
     
    Ouch! That's harsh.

    But, on reflection, probably fair....
    , @Jaakko Raipala

    In contrast the Irish famine in 1840′s cut population by more than half and even today Ireland has fewer people than before the famine. Genocide? It would be impolite to accuse the British of something like that, it was, of course, ‘more complex’.
     
    I don't know what you're smoking, growing up on American media I learned that there were multiple genocidal campaigns against the Irish from Cromwell to the famine. I was surprised to read more "complex", "nuanced" ie non-pop-culture accounts were the Irish famine wasn't presented as a literal genocide and an intentional imperial plan.

    The evil white supremacist British empire that genocided the Irish who weren't considered white is a standard Western pop Marxist culture "truth" that has found a perfect home in America - Americans love to believe bad things about the British aristocracy, Hollywood Jews are all Marxists who hate European empires and Irishmen are well represented in American media and leftist movements.

    By the way, there was a famine just after the Irish ones in Finland that killed a higher proportion of the population...

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Famine_of_1866%E2%80%9368

    ...but you've never heard of it. There was no one to politicize it. Commies and Finnish ethnonationalists (almost the same thing) tried to turn it into a narrative of Germanic aristocrats and Russian imperial schemers intentionally wanting to limit ethnic Finnish population growth but they lost the Civil War so in our first history writing aristocrats, landowners and the empire were the good guys. If our Reds had won they'd have teamed up with Red Russia and perhaps their narrative of famine-genocide in Finland would have made it to Soviet tropes the way "Irish genocide" has made it to American tropes.

    To have a "genocide" you need not only dead people, you need some interested party with financial and cultural influence to craft it into a narrative. (Actually the dead people are optional.)

    , @AP

    confiscating food and starving people to death

    If that is genocide – and it might be – then all of European history is one long genocide. The way it worked in the Middle Ages and all the way through 19th century was that landlords ‘confiscated’ the food,
     
    So it was normal in Europe up to the 19th century for armed police to steal all the grain from starving peasants, the streets of London or Berlin had mothers and chldren dying of starvation, etc. etc.?

    About 3 million Ukrainians were starved to death in this manner.


    Look it up, it used to happen regularly especially during bad harvest years all over Europe
     
    In Ukraine, Volga etc. the harvest was not so bad that the people would have starved, if the government hadn't taken all their food. That is the difference.

    The population in Ukraine and Kazakhstan went up between 1918 and 1941, so if there was a ‘genocide’ it was not very genociadial.
     
    You have surpassed your usual level of being disgusting, congratulations.
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  60. @Randal
    This seems likely to be a source of trouble in the near future:

    Gazprom seeks to halt Ukraine gas contracts as dispute escalates

    Iirc there has been a recent step up in the US and US crony attempts to block Nord Stream 2, and some political strife over gas supplies in Ukraine will undoubtedly be used by the usual suspects to try to make trouble for Russia. On the other hand, it can cut both ways depending on how the dispute plays out.

    Stockholm arbitration court

    Accepting a Swedish court was a mistake.
    Sweden and Poland are architects of the EU Eastern neighborhood policy.
    Of course, Swedes would supprt UKR.

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    • Replies: @Randal
    Probably. Not sure what would really be beyond the reach of Washington and its cronies, though.
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  61. From the transhumanist article:
    “In a small, white warehouse two hours north of Moscow are 56 dead people who hope to live again. Their bodies are upside down, their blood fully drained from their arteries, as they wait, immersed in negative 196-degree Celsius liquid nitrogen for the next 100 years.”

    Amazing what things various people have come up with to deal with their dead. The Fore people in Paupa New Gineau invite relatives over and eat their dead – they save the brains for the womenfolk and children.

    Well, all I can say is good luck fellows – hope they can find a way to bring you back otherwise that will have been money not well spent. Not holding my breath though, because there’s no cure for that either.

    Also, what happens if the 100 years runs out? Do they pull the plug? Cause that would seriously suck for these guys if it’s discovered like three months after.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha

    Also, what happens if the 100 years runs out? Do they pull the plug? Cause that would seriously suck for these guys if it’s discovered like three months after.
     
    I missed the detail in the article talking about how the contract can be extended after the first century. I guess they should make sure their legal guardians/heirs pony up the extra bucks.

    Also, I guess the article couldn't help the octopus analogy for Russia either:
    "Twenty-first-century transhumanism tends to be rooted in Russia, but it has tentacles all over the world."

    , @Anon

    Well, all I can say is good luck fellows – hope they can find a way to bring you back otherwise that will have been money not well spent.
     
    They'd be brought back most as zombies with no personality. The high-level brain structures have already deteriorated by the point when death is officially pronounced. Freezing a person whose "self" is still intact is legally considered murder, and no one wants to go to jail, so (unlikely) zombies-to-be is all we get. I wonder if countries where euthanasia is legal could make freezing alive one of the accepted methods along with the usual poisoning. Now that would be at least a little promising for those who hope to be brought back as the same continuous person.
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  62. @Beckow

    confiscating food and starving people to death
     
    If that is genocide - and it might be - then all of European history is one long genocide. The way it worked in the Middle Ages and all the way through 19th century was that landlords 'confiscated' the food, and if the peasants starved, well, too bad, their own problem. Look it up, it used to happen regularly especially during bad harvest years all over Europe. Starvation was ever-present for hundreds of years. We don't like to recall it because it makes the 'horrible' 20th century not that 'horrible' by comparison.

    Poland and Ukraine were among the most suffering areas. If an economic system is based on what is in effect a 'genocide', should we build museums about it? Would anyone take it seriously? The population in Ukraine and Kazakhstan went up between 1918 and 1941, so if there was a 'genocide' it was not very genociadial.

    In contrast the Irish famine in 1840's cut population by more than half and even today Ireland has fewer people than before the famine. Genocide? It would be impolite to accuse the British of something like that, it was, of course, 'more complex'. As we know, 'complexity' only exists in the West. Elsewhere it is all very straight-forward and no complexity is ever allowed to muddy up the narrative...

    It would be impolite to accuse the British of something like that, it was, of course, ‘more complex’.

    But there are people who claim the 1840s famine was a genocide:

    https://www.independent.ie/entertainment/books/was-the-famine-genocide-by-the-british-28954929.html

    https://www.irishcentral.com/news/proving-the-irish-famine-was-genocide-by-the-british-tim-pat-coogan-moves-famine-history-unto-a-new-plane-181984471-238161151

    And it isn’t generally claimed in the West that the collectivization famines were genocide in the sense that Russians deliberately targeted other ethnicities for extermination by starvation…it seems to me the common interpretation is rather that the Soviets (of all ethnic backgrounds) in their quest for modernization waged war against the traditional countryside and didn’t care if their policies killed lots of people (so more of a class issue – privileged urban industrial workers versus peasants regarded as backwards and standing in the way of progress – than an ethnic issue).
    It should also be noted that labeling of those famines as genocide is often criticized, at times quite vehemently so, because it supposedly relativizes the uniqueness of the Holocaust.

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    • Replies: @Beckow
    I think we get into distinctions between academic research and the way popular culture presents it. You are right that in academia it is 'not generally claimed'. But what matters is that politicians, Hollywood and the media have never bothered with being nuanced. On the other hand, at least in the last few years, the Irish famine (or the Bengali famine of 1940's) are not ever referred to as 'genocide by the British'.

    I find a lot of this talk about 'genocide' very politicised and it does relativise it. For example the Bosnia situation - clearly a civil war with atrocities on all sides - has been painted as a one-sided genocide for political reasons, there is even a section on it in the Holocaust museum in Washington. That was done for political reasons, and it has been out of control. Today we have the 'Rohingya genocide', etc... This hyper-ventilating devalues true understanding of history. For example, it is hard to argue that armed combatants getting killed (even as POWs) is genocide. But people do for political reasons.

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  63. @Talha
    From the transhumanist article:
    "In a small, white warehouse two hours north of Moscow are 56 dead people who hope to live again. Their bodies are upside down, their blood fully drained from their arteries, as they wait, immersed in negative 196-degree Celsius liquid nitrogen for the next 100 years."

    Amazing what things various people have come up with to deal with their dead. The Fore people in Paupa New Gineau invite relatives over and eat their dead - they save the brains for the womenfolk and children.

    Well, all I can say is good luck fellows - hope they can find a way to bring you back otherwise that will have been money not well spent. Not holding my breath though, because there's no cure for that either.

    Also, what happens if the 100 years runs out? Do they pull the plug? Cause that would seriously suck for these guys if it's discovered like three months after.

    Also, what happens if the 100 years runs out? Do they pull the plug? Cause that would seriously suck for these guys if it’s discovered like three months after.

    I missed the detail in the article talking about how the contract can be extended after the first century. I guess they should make sure their legal guardians/heirs pony up the extra bucks.

    Also, I guess the article couldn’t help the octopus analogy for Russia either:
    Twenty-first-century transhumanism tends to be rooted in Russia, but it has tentacles all over the world.

    Read More
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  64. @Mitleser

    Stockholm arbitration court
     
    Accepting a Swedish court was a mistake.
    Sweden and Poland are architects of the EU Eastern neighborhood policy.
    Of course, Swedes would supprt UKR.

    Probably. Not sure what would really be beyond the reach of Washington and its cronies, though.

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  65. @Beckow

    confiscating food and starving people to death
     
    If that is genocide - and it might be - then all of European history is one long genocide. The way it worked in the Middle Ages and all the way through 19th century was that landlords 'confiscated' the food, and if the peasants starved, well, too bad, their own problem. Look it up, it used to happen regularly especially during bad harvest years all over Europe. Starvation was ever-present for hundreds of years. We don't like to recall it because it makes the 'horrible' 20th century not that 'horrible' by comparison.

    Poland and Ukraine were among the most suffering areas. If an economic system is based on what is in effect a 'genocide', should we build museums about it? Would anyone take it seriously? The population in Ukraine and Kazakhstan went up between 1918 and 1941, so if there was a 'genocide' it was not very genociadial.

    In contrast the Irish famine in 1840's cut population by more than half and even today Ireland has fewer people than before the famine. Genocide? It would be impolite to accuse the British of something like that, it was, of course, 'more complex'. As we know, 'complexity' only exists in the West. Elsewhere it is all very straight-forward and no complexity is ever allowed to muddy up the narrative...

    Genocide? It would be impolite to accuse the British of something like that, it was, of course, ‘more complex’. As we know, ‘complexity’ only exists in the West. Elsewhere it is all very straight-forward and no complexity is ever allowed to muddy up the narrative…

    Ouch! That’s harsh.

    But, on reflection, probably fair….

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  66. @Beckow

    confiscating food and starving people to death
     
    If that is genocide - and it might be - then all of European history is one long genocide. The way it worked in the Middle Ages and all the way through 19th century was that landlords 'confiscated' the food, and if the peasants starved, well, too bad, their own problem. Look it up, it used to happen regularly especially during bad harvest years all over Europe. Starvation was ever-present for hundreds of years. We don't like to recall it because it makes the 'horrible' 20th century not that 'horrible' by comparison.

    Poland and Ukraine were among the most suffering areas. If an economic system is based on what is in effect a 'genocide', should we build museums about it? Would anyone take it seriously? The population in Ukraine and Kazakhstan went up between 1918 and 1941, so if there was a 'genocide' it was not very genociadial.

    In contrast the Irish famine in 1840's cut population by more than half and even today Ireland has fewer people than before the famine. Genocide? It would be impolite to accuse the British of something like that, it was, of course, 'more complex'. As we know, 'complexity' only exists in the West. Elsewhere it is all very straight-forward and no complexity is ever allowed to muddy up the narrative...

    In contrast the Irish famine in 1840′s cut population by more than half and even today Ireland has fewer people than before the famine. Genocide? It would be impolite to accuse the British of something like that, it was, of course, ‘more complex’.

    I don’t know what you’re smoking, growing up on American media I learned that there were multiple genocidal campaigns against the Irish from Cromwell to the famine. I was surprised to read more “complex”, “nuanced” ie non-pop-culture accounts were the Irish famine wasn’t presented as a literal genocide and an intentional imperial plan.

    The evil white supremacist British empire that genocided the Irish who weren’t considered white is a standard Western pop Marxist culture “truth” that has found a perfect home in America – Americans love to believe bad things about the British aristocracy, Hollywood Jews are all Marxists who hate European empires and Irishmen are well represented in American media and leftist movements.

    By the way, there was a famine just after the Irish ones in Finland that killed a higher proportion of the population…

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Famine_of_1866%E2%80%9368

    …but you’ve never heard of it. There was no one to politicize it. Commies and Finnish ethnonationalists (almost the same thing) tried to turn it into a narrative of Germanic aristocrats and Russian imperial schemers intentionally wanting to limit ethnic Finnish population growth but they lost the Civil War so in our first history writing aristocrats, landowners and the empire were the good guys. If our Reds had won they’d have teamed up with Red Russia and perhaps their narrative of famine-genocide in Finland would have made it to Soviet tropes the way “Irish genocide” has made it to American tropes.

    To have a “genocide” you need not only dead people, you need some interested party with financial and cultural influence to craft it into a narrative. (Actually the dead people are optional.)

    Read More
    • Agree: Anatoly Karlin
    • Replies: @for-the-record
    I don’t know what you’re smoking, . . . By the way, there was a famine just after the Irish ones in Finland that killed a higher proportion of the population

    It seems to me that you're the one who should be careful what he is smoking.


    In Finland the famine is known as "the great hunger years", or suuret nälkävuodet. About 8.5% of the entire population died of hunger
     
    In Ireland the death toll is estimated at 1,000,000 to 1.5 million, out of a pre-famine population of 8 million, which taking the minimum figure represents 12.5% of the pre-famine population.

    Still, I will admit that you are absolutely correct that few people know about the Finnish famine, it is certainly news for me. The reason so many Americans know about the Irish famine, of course, is not so much the deaths (by themselves), as that a million Irish emigrated because of the famine, nearly all of them going to the US. And today the Irish-American population is around 35 million (while the Finnish-American population is less than a million, I believe).

    , @Beckow

    To have a “genocide” you need not only dead people, you need some interested party with financial and cultural influence to craft it into a narrative. (Actually the dead people are optional.)
     
    Quite perceptive, I agree.

    Now for the Irish famine-genocide. In spite of what you claim about the massive Irish influence in Hollywood (?), it is always presented in more gentle, balanced terms than a 'British genocide of Irish'. Yes, some Irish nationalists will say it, and of course Marxists are always on a look-out for another genocide, but the general view is more 'complex'. There are no museums (as far as I know), one doesn't see chapters in textbooks 'British genocide of Irish', etc... There is simply no comparison with Stalin's genocide of the Ukrainians that is generally stated as an indisputable fact. I have once calculated that the British Empire caused around 200 million additional deaths around the world if one uses the Stalin-like methodology (count the sick, the hungry and the unborn). If Stalin was a bastard (he was), were British leaders of that time also irredeemable bastards? And why don't we say it?

    I didn't know about the Finnish famine, interesting. I had a friend who was a Finn from Sweden and he claimed that as recently as his parents' generation in the 50-60's, Finns in Sweden very heavily persecuted, couldn't use Finnish language in schools, etc... Is that true?

    , @StripeyCat
    The Irish famine is more well known in the west than the holodomor, that is clear to everyone except, I guess, Russians playing the usual whataboutism.

    The argument we were given in school was that England exported food while the Irish were starving therefore Deliberate Genocide by the racist captitalist English against the poor colonised Irish. The problem is that The England government had no food supply. It was exported by merchants in Cork and Dublin who were middle class Irish wih no interest in their supposed fellow countrymen in the interior. But a lot of English are Cucks like Tony Blair. They will foist blame for the Irish potato blight, black incarceration rates (Russians love that one too), impoverished third gen Bangladeshis or hurt gay feelings on the country as a whole then weaponise them. The truth is irrelevant to our rulers.

    Russians joining in with the usual victm groups to smear western nations is interesting because it shows that a lot of Russians (most?) see the west as The Other, not something Russia is itself part of. In this respect they are like the others (Chinese, Africans, Jews and Muslims) cynically taking advantage of current western weakness.
    , @Randal

    I don’t know what you’re smoking
     
    Seems unduly harsh.

    Personally I didn't interpret Beckow's comment as making the usual simplistic leftist argument (for ulterior political and cultural reasons) that there was a British "genocide" of the Irish. I read it as criticising the prevalent hypocrisy of recognising genuine complexities in our own case (or cases where for whatever ulterior purpose sympathy for the authorities is considered appropriate), but ignoring them in other cases.

    And based on that interpretation I really can't do other than accept the criticism as valid, both for British commentators and for the American ones mostly derived from our culture.

    It's a cultural tic that no doubt exists to some extent in all cultures, but is particularly noticeable in the case of British and American cultures because those countries have been so globally dominant for so long (consecutively speaking). It is only partially and situationally counteracted by the Marxist inspired anti-imperialism and ethnomasochism that often reverses the take.
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  67. @Jaakko Raipala

    In contrast the Irish famine in 1840′s cut population by more than half and even today Ireland has fewer people than before the famine. Genocide? It would be impolite to accuse the British of something like that, it was, of course, ‘more complex’.
     
    I don't know what you're smoking, growing up on American media I learned that there were multiple genocidal campaigns against the Irish from Cromwell to the famine. I was surprised to read more "complex", "nuanced" ie non-pop-culture accounts were the Irish famine wasn't presented as a literal genocide and an intentional imperial plan.

    The evil white supremacist British empire that genocided the Irish who weren't considered white is a standard Western pop Marxist culture "truth" that has found a perfect home in America - Americans love to believe bad things about the British aristocracy, Hollywood Jews are all Marxists who hate European empires and Irishmen are well represented in American media and leftist movements.

    By the way, there was a famine just after the Irish ones in Finland that killed a higher proportion of the population...

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Famine_of_1866%E2%80%9368

    ...but you've never heard of it. There was no one to politicize it. Commies and Finnish ethnonationalists (almost the same thing) tried to turn it into a narrative of Germanic aristocrats and Russian imperial schemers intentionally wanting to limit ethnic Finnish population growth but they lost the Civil War so in our first history writing aristocrats, landowners and the empire were the good guys. If our Reds had won they'd have teamed up with Red Russia and perhaps their narrative of famine-genocide in Finland would have made it to Soviet tropes the way "Irish genocide" has made it to American tropes.

    To have a "genocide" you need not only dead people, you need some interested party with financial and cultural influence to craft it into a narrative. (Actually the dead people are optional.)

    I don’t know what you’re smoking, . . . By the way, there was a famine just after the Irish ones in Finland that killed a higher proportion of the population

    It seems to me that you’re the one who should be careful what he is smoking.

    In Finland the famine is known as “the great hunger years”, or suuret nälkävuodet. About 8.5% of the entire population died of hunger

    In Ireland the death toll is estimated at 1,000,000 to 1.5 million, out of a pre-famine population of 8 million, which taking the minimum figure represents 12.5% of the pre-famine population.

    Still, I will admit that you are absolutely correct that few people know about the Finnish famine, it is certainly news for me. The reason so many Americans know about the Irish famine, of course, is not so much the deaths (by themselves), as that a million Irish emigrated because of the famine, nearly all of them going to the US. And today the Irish-American population is around 35 million (while the Finnish-American population is less than a million, I believe).

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    • Replies: @Jaakko Raipala
    Ok, you're right, I got the death % confused with this other famine in my memory.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Famine_of_1695%E2%80%931697

    There was a political attempt to capitalize on this one, too, as the Russians spread the word of how (supposedly) shocked Tsar Peter had been while traveling through Estonia during the famine and the Great Northern War was preceded by Russian propaganda efforts painting Swedish aristocracy as negligent and hostile to peasants.

    The war didn't make Russia very popular, though...
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  68. @Jaakko Raipala

    In contrast the Irish famine in 1840′s cut population by more than half and even today Ireland has fewer people than before the famine. Genocide? It would be impolite to accuse the British of something like that, it was, of course, ‘more complex’.
     
    I don't know what you're smoking, growing up on American media I learned that there were multiple genocidal campaigns against the Irish from Cromwell to the famine. I was surprised to read more "complex", "nuanced" ie non-pop-culture accounts were the Irish famine wasn't presented as a literal genocide and an intentional imperial plan.

    The evil white supremacist British empire that genocided the Irish who weren't considered white is a standard Western pop Marxist culture "truth" that has found a perfect home in America - Americans love to believe bad things about the British aristocracy, Hollywood Jews are all Marxists who hate European empires and Irishmen are well represented in American media and leftist movements.

    By the way, there was a famine just after the Irish ones in Finland that killed a higher proportion of the population...

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Famine_of_1866%E2%80%9368

    ...but you've never heard of it. There was no one to politicize it. Commies and Finnish ethnonationalists (almost the same thing) tried to turn it into a narrative of Germanic aristocrats and Russian imperial schemers intentionally wanting to limit ethnic Finnish population growth but they lost the Civil War so in our first history writing aristocrats, landowners and the empire were the good guys. If our Reds had won they'd have teamed up with Red Russia and perhaps their narrative of famine-genocide in Finland would have made it to Soviet tropes the way "Irish genocide" has made it to American tropes.

    To have a "genocide" you need not only dead people, you need some interested party with financial and cultural influence to craft it into a narrative. (Actually the dead people are optional.)

    To have a “genocide” you need not only dead people, you need some interested party with financial and cultural influence to craft it into a narrative. (Actually the dead people are optional.)

    Quite perceptive, I agree.

    Now for the Irish famine-genocide. In spite of what you claim about the massive Irish influence in Hollywood (?), it is always presented in more gentle, balanced terms than a ‘British genocide of Irish‘. Yes, some Irish nationalists will say it, and of course Marxists are always on a look-out for another genocide, but the general view is more ‘complex’. There are no museums (as far as I know), one doesn’t see chapters in textbooks ‘British genocide of Irish’, etc… There is simply no comparison with Stalin’s genocide of the Ukrainians that is generally stated as an indisputable fact. I have once calculated that the British Empire caused around 200 million additional deaths around the world if one uses the Stalin-like methodology (count the sick, the hungry and the unborn). If Stalin was a bastard (he was), were British leaders of that time also irredeemable bastards? And why don’t we say it?

    I didn’t know about the Finnish famine, interesting. I had a friend who was a Finn from Sweden and he claimed that as recently as his parents’ generation in the 50-60′s, Finns in Sweden very heavily persecuted, couldn’t use Finnish language in schools, etc… Is that true?

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  69. @bb.
    i don't know their financials, maybe you could have more info, but a lot of retailers are indebted af, not only in Russia. this might have been a pre-emptive bailout. it is also possible that it is a hostile, covered takeover by alfa group, the main competitor, to whom vtb will sell. it is also possible (wild speculation) that Russian banks need to capitalize before some kind of coming storm ... 'dollar-decoupling' or some kind of currency reform (whats the deal with all the gold hoarding and petro-rmb connection?) regardless, it seems there will be a lot of privatization in Russia in the coming years, coupled with declining interest rates.

    i don’t know their financials, maybe you could have more info, but a lot of retailers are indebted af, not only in Russia. this might have been a pre-emptive bailout. it is also possible that it is a hostile, covered takeover by alfa group, the main competitor, to whom vtb will sell. it is also possible (wild speculation) that Russian banks need to capitalize before some kind of coming storm … ‘dollar-decoupling’ or some kind of currency reform (whats the deal with all the gold hoarding and petro-rmb connection?) regardless, it seems there will be a lot of privatization in Russia in the coming years, coupled with declining interest rates.

    Magnit’s financials are quite good for a retailer. Net margins of 5% and about as good of a moat as can be got in grocery retailing.

    Growth is quite strong even in recent years.

    Information here: http://ir.magnit.com/en/

    I don’t approve of touting EBITDA (a criminally irresponsible “accounting” metric), but the data are all there.

    Retail is a brutal sector but I’m comfortable in investing in it. I had a large Kroger position in 2017 and am a current stockholder in Costco and Sephora (Danish jeweler).

    If Russia wants to converge with the advanced countries, it should be touting people like Sergei Galitsky as heroes and role models for Russia’s future.

    I realize we’re all alt right here (or almost all of us–Unz Review unfortunately still has some libertarians whose brains seemingly never got the alt right dissident patch) and thus have a critical view of the bourgeoisie, but markets and entrepreneurs matter no matter how much Martyanov and The Faker disagree (who both live in the United States–a country which hero worships entrepreneurs and has very, very little public ownership of capital).

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    • Replies: @bb.

    but markets and entrepreneurs matter no matter how much Martyanov and The Faker disagree
     
    oh absolutely. even if ones toolset is limited to considerations of an impeding invasion and full scale mobilization, good managers matter a lot. maybe they just don't trust their loyalties.

    Didn't care for Magnit in particular so far, retail is a weird sector in general imo but I got interested bc. of the VTB purchase. VTB is also a stakeholder in the developing drama around another big retailer/producer in the Balkans facing bankrupcy - Agrokor. Magnit was also in talks to buy the retail units of Agrokor in Croatia, Slovenia and Serbia during last year. Maybe VTB has the cash and ambitions to conquer the whole region and the board didn't share Galitskys vision for smaller but more robust market positions in Russia, where it is being chased by Alfa
    On the managerial bright side, it seems VTB has some expertise in retail - VTB Capital’s Alexei Makhnev has been an independent director on Magnit’s board for several years.
    I am sure there is an interesting story behind it that will unravel in the coming weeks.
    , @Philip Owen
    Magnit was caught by sanctions on fresh food. After the counter sanctions against the EU, they switched to Turkey. 100%. Then Russia sanctioned Turkey. I speak from direct experience that after that no one in reach wanted a Russian firm as a major customer. There are costs involved in customer acquisition. I have found some Mexicans who are worried about Trump but language skills aren't great and exporting experience outside NAFTA is zero.
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  70. @German_reader

    It would be impolite to accuse the British of something like that, it was, of course, ‘more complex’.
     
    But there are people who claim the 1840s famine was a genocide:
    https://www.independent.ie/entertainment/books/was-the-famine-genocide-by-the-british-28954929.html

    https://www.irishcentral.com/news/proving-the-irish-famine-was-genocide-by-the-british-tim-pat-coogan-moves-famine-history-unto-a-new-plane-181984471-238161151

    And it isn't generally claimed in the West that the collectivization famines were genocide in the sense that Russians deliberately targeted other ethnicities for extermination by starvation...it seems to me the common interpretation is rather that the Soviets (of all ethnic backgrounds) in their quest for modernization waged war against the traditional countryside and didn't care if their policies killed lots of people (so more of a class issue - privileged urban industrial workers versus peasants regarded as backwards and standing in the way of progress - than an ethnic issue).
    It should also be noted that labeling of those famines as genocide is often criticized, at times quite vehemently so, because it supposedly relativizes the uniqueness of the Holocaust.

    I think we get into distinctions between academic research and the way popular culture presents it. You are right that in academia it is ‘not generally claimed’. But what matters is that politicians, Hollywood and the media have never bothered with being nuanced. On the other hand, at least in the last few years, the Irish famine (or the Bengali famine of 1940′s) are not ever referred to as ‘genocide by the British’.

    I find a lot of this talk about ‘genocide’ very politicised and it does relativise it. For example the Bosnia situation – clearly a civil war with atrocities on all sides – has been painted as a one-sided genocide for political reasons, there is even a section on it in the Holocaust museum in Washington. That was done for political reasons, and it has been out of control. Today we have the ‘Rohingya genocide’, etc… This hyper-ventilating devalues true understanding of history. For example, it is hard to argue that armed combatants getting killed (even as POWs) is genocide. But people do for political reasons.

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    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    The real problem is the cuck take that genocide is necessarily bad.

    The United States owes much of its superiority over Latin America to the successful genocide of the red Indians.

    While Karlin for obvious reasons can do nothing but loathe Adolf Hitler and the Nazis for Generalplan Ost, I'm sure he would agree that a successful Generalplan Ost would've been very positive for Germans (the world would be impoverished by the loss of Russians of course, but all the other ethnic groups between Germany and Russia strike me as irrelevant).

    And this exists in lesser forms as well. Quite clearly the ethnocide of the Ukraine (not physical annihilation, just elimination of the Ukrainian dialect and the absurd idea that an independent Ukrainian culture and nation exist or should exist) would be beneficial for everyone--even Ukrainians.

    Such ethnocides were successfully implemented in most Western European nations (ever heard of Low German or Occitan?), and presently China is currently conducting many such ethnocides with useless regional languages and identities.

    , @German_reader

    I think we get into distinctions between academic research and the way popular culture presents it.
     
    I don't know, are Stalinist crimes a big topic in Western popular culture, and presented as genocide? If so, I must have missed it, can't think of any Hollywood blockbusters about the "Holodomor" (iirc there was some movie about that a few years ago...but who watched that?). Most Westerners don't care about those issues and are more likely to regard Ukrainians, Balts etc. as Nazi collaborators in the context of WW2 than as victims of Stalinist repression.
    Agree with you about genocide...the term is often used nowadays in such a way that it's meaningless.
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  71. @Beckow
    I think we get into distinctions between academic research and the way popular culture presents it. You are right that in academia it is 'not generally claimed'. But what matters is that politicians, Hollywood and the media have never bothered with being nuanced. On the other hand, at least in the last few years, the Irish famine (or the Bengali famine of 1940's) are not ever referred to as 'genocide by the British'.

    I find a lot of this talk about 'genocide' very politicised and it does relativise it. For example the Bosnia situation - clearly a civil war with atrocities on all sides - has been painted as a one-sided genocide for political reasons, there is even a section on it in the Holocaust museum in Washington. That was done for political reasons, and it has been out of control. Today we have the 'Rohingya genocide', etc... This hyper-ventilating devalues true understanding of history. For example, it is hard to argue that armed combatants getting killed (even as POWs) is genocide. But people do for political reasons.

    The real problem is the cuck take that genocide is necessarily bad.

    The United States owes much of its superiority over Latin America to the successful genocide of the red Indians.

    While Karlin for obvious reasons can do nothing but loathe Adolf Hitler and the Nazis for Generalplan Ost, I’m sure he would agree that a successful Generalplan Ost would’ve been very positive for Germans (the world would be impoverished by the loss of Russians of course, but all the other ethnic groups between Germany and Russia strike me as irrelevant).

    And this exists in lesser forms as well. Quite clearly the ethnocide of the Ukraine (not physical annihilation, just elimination of the Ukrainian dialect and the absurd idea that an independent Ukrainian culture and nation exist or should exist) would be beneficial for everyone–even Ukrainians.

    Such ethnocides were successfully implemented in most Western European nations (ever heard of Low German or Occitan?), and presently China is currently conducting many such ethnocides with useless regional languages and identities.

    Read More
    • Replies: @German_reader

    While Karlin for obvious reasons can do nothing but loathe Adolf Hitler and the Nazis for Generalplan Ost, I’m sure he would agree that a successful Generalplan Ost would’ve been very positive for Germans
     
    Nazi racial violence was hugely counter-productive for the German war effort...probably the only way Germany could have defeated the Soviet Union or forced a favorable negotiated settlement - at least after the failure to take Moscow in 1941 - would have been mass enlistment of Soviet peoples on the German side. Kind of hard to do that though when you deliberately starve to death millions of pows and make it more than clear that you intend to enslave or just murder the native population. This was a huge wasted opportunity. Even as it was, despite Hitler's opposition and German refusal to make any credible promises regarding some sort of future statehood or autonomy for Soviet peoples, an estimated 800 000 Russians (that is ethnic Russians, not members of peripheral peoples like Balts, Chechens, Crimean Tartars etc. who were even more enthusiastic) served in some form in German forces, and the Germans even found a suitable figurehead for a national Russian anti-Bolshevik movement in General Vlasov. Who knows what might have been possible if the goal hadn't been racially motivated mass killings to make room for Germanic settlers, but merely ending the communist system, some sort of economic influence and German hegemony over Eastern Europe? For the latter objective it might even have been useful to cultivate Jewish communities as allies since they often had some affinity for German culture and were in conflict with native nationalists. So Nazi racial policies were rather self-defeating.
    Genocide can "work" of course if you get away with it, like the Turks did, but if you fail it's probably going to make things much worse for you (and regarding Amerindians in North America, apart from some cases like California, can this really be described as "genocide"? My understanding is Amerindian populations in North America had probably always been smaller than in South America, and in any case were decimated on an almost unimaginable scale by European diseases already in the 16th/17th century, before they came into much contact with English settlers).
    , @Pavlo
    Let us turn this around.

    The disappearance of Germans and Swedes such as yourself would a positive for eastern europe and the world in general.

    Unless you really feel that herd animal conformity and autism are the wealth of mankind.
    , @Jaakko Raipala
    A counter-example are those Irish that were already discussed - their language died but it did not turn them into loyal Englishmen. Teaching your language to your declared enemies isn't necessarily a smart move.

    If the Germans had succeeded at killing off languages like Polish, Czech, Ukrainian etc it might have left a big part of Europe German speaking but it's no guarantee that those newly German speaking people would have identified with Germany. If it had failed at that then you would have resentful anti-German peoples with German language skills to ally with opponents of the German regime in Germany and to ally with whatever foreign enemies Germany still had.

    Ironically, if the English had simply left the Irish language alone, they would have eventually learned English anyway in the American age. Arriving at it through that route might have ended up with an English speaking Ireland that doesn't have an antagonistic attitude with England. Likewise, if Russia had become a world leading capitalist economy in 1917 it might have killed some neighbors like Baltic languages by now even if the hypothetical bourgeois liberal regime had tried to support local identities. Liberal capitalism has turned out to be a stronger force of cultural destruction than any totalitarianism.
    , @AP

    absurd idea that an independent Ukrainian culture and nation exist or should exist
     
    Out of curiosity - what do you think of the Norwegian, Danish, and Icelandic cultures or nations? Should they all be combined into Swedish? Or should Norwegian and Icelalandic be eliminated and assimilated with Danish? Historically, Norway, Iceland, and Denmark spent more time within one state than did Ukraine and Russia. Norwegian, Swedish, and Danish are more closely related to each other than Ukrainian is to Russian.
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  72. @Thorfinnsson
    The real problem is the cuck take that genocide is necessarily bad.

    The United States owes much of its superiority over Latin America to the successful genocide of the red Indians.

    While Karlin for obvious reasons can do nothing but loathe Adolf Hitler and the Nazis for Generalplan Ost, I'm sure he would agree that a successful Generalplan Ost would've been very positive for Germans (the world would be impoverished by the loss of Russians of course, but all the other ethnic groups between Germany and Russia strike me as irrelevant).

    And this exists in lesser forms as well. Quite clearly the ethnocide of the Ukraine (not physical annihilation, just elimination of the Ukrainian dialect and the absurd idea that an independent Ukrainian culture and nation exist or should exist) would be beneficial for everyone--even Ukrainians.

    Such ethnocides were successfully implemented in most Western European nations (ever heard of Low German or Occitan?), and presently China is currently conducting many such ethnocides with useless regional languages and identities.

    While Karlin for obvious reasons can do nothing but loathe Adolf Hitler and the Nazis for Generalplan Ost, I’m sure he would agree that a successful Generalplan Ost would’ve been very positive for Germans

    Nazi racial violence was hugely counter-productive for the German war effort…probably the only way Germany could have defeated the Soviet Union or forced a favorable negotiated settlement – at least after the failure to take Moscow in 1941 – would have been mass enlistment of Soviet peoples on the German side. Kind of hard to do that though when you deliberately starve to death millions of pows and make it more than clear that you intend to enslave or just murder the native population. This was a huge wasted opportunity. Even as it was, despite Hitler’s opposition and German refusal to make any credible promises regarding some sort of future statehood or autonomy for Soviet peoples, an estimated 800 000 Russians (that is ethnic Russians, not members of peripheral peoples like Balts, Chechens, Crimean Tartars etc. who were even more enthusiastic) served in some form in German forces, and the Germans even found a suitable figurehead for a national Russian anti-Bolshevik movement in General Vlasov. Who knows what might have been possible if the goal hadn’t been racially motivated mass killings to make room for Germanic settlers, but merely ending the communist system, some sort of economic influence and German hegemony over Eastern Europe? For the latter objective it might even have been useful to cultivate Jewish communities as allies since they often had some affinity for German culture and were in conflict with native nationalists. So Nazi racial policies were rather self-defeating.
    Genocide can “work” of course if you get away with it, like the Turks did, but if you fail it’s probably going to make things much worse for you (and regarding Amerindians in North America, apart from some cases like California, can this really be described as “genocide”? My understanding is Amerindian populations in North America had probably always been smaller than in South America, and in any case were decimated on an almost unimaginable scale by European diseases already in the 16th/17th century, before they came into much contact with English settlers).

    Read More
    • Replies: @Polish Perspective

    So Nazi racial policies were rather self-defeating.
     
    Some of the brighter German generals like Canaris said as much. More than that, the hypocrisy of the Third Reich was also sometimes outright hilarious. I remember reading a book focusing on the German invasion of Poland where Himmler expressed his astonishment that he saw more blonds in Poland than he had in Germany.

    Of course, the Germans also snatched hundreds of thousands of Polish children - selected for their supposedly "Aryan" features - and gave them to German foster parents. Some of those are now advancing law suits against the German state in old age. I wish them well, though I think the odds of winning are abysmal since the current German governments can't really be held responsible.

    My understanding is Amerindian populations in North America had probably always been smaller than in South America, and in any case were decimated on an almost unimaginable scale by European diseases
     
    On top of that, they were not united as a block as it is often portrayed. Many of them genocided each other and sided with various European powers. The French had their own set of alliances vs the English and so on.

    That said, there were certainly elements of genocide in the wars against the native Americans, but the debate is whether this was consciously done to them or if this was a byproduct of other policies which were allowed to proceed.


    merely ending the communist system, some sort of economic influence and German hegemony over Eastern Europe? For the latter objective it might even have been useful to cultivate Jewish communities as allies since they often had some affinity for German culture and were in conflict with native nationalists.
     
    This strikes me as shockingly naïve if not ahistorical. Jews in Eastern Europe were absolutely at the center of the support for communism. Just as they were in the US at the same time. (Largely due to the huge influx of - you guessed it - Eastern European Jews).

    It is true that Jews were often hostile to native nationalists - as they are today as well. But cultivating them as a shield against the native population would have turbocharged the notion that Germans are out to exploit you and are willing to buddy up with Jews to do so. It would have been idiotic on so many levels and essentially guaranteed eternal hostility and a very easy way for Stalin, who was no great friend of Jews, to win back a lot of local loyalty.
    , @Thorfinnsson
    No disagreement here. Obviously the Germans would've been well served to work with anti-Russian nationalities in the USSR (and anti-communists as well) while the war was on. The Germans were overconfident and were too cocksure of mopping things up in the summer of 1941. I assume overrunning France got their heads.

    My only point here is simple. Imagine if today Germany's eastern border was the Ural Mountains or even the Pacific Ocean. And imagine further that there were 300 million Germans today. That was Hitler's dream, and I find it hard to fault him for daring to dream.

    Karlin has his own alternate history in which a thoroughly modernized and united Russian superpower with 400 million East Slavs exists today. That too is a great dream.

    I want to make it clear that I am not anti-Russian, but there is obviously some fundamental antagonism between Germany and Russia simply owing to proximity. And being Germanic rather than Slavic obviously I tend to identify more with the Germans, though I do have a great deal of admiration for Russians.
    , @melanf

    an estimated 800 000 Russians (that is ethnic Russians, not members of peripheral peoples like Balts, Chechens, Crimean Tartars etc. who were even more enthusiastic) served in some form in German forces
     
    in some form - as slaves. it's a little known fact, but Soviet troops (against orders of the military command) in similar way use the German prisoners, who as a result served in the red army as Jivi.
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  73. @Beckow
    I think we get into distinctions between academic research and the way popular culture presents it. You are right that in academia it is 'not generally claimed'. But what matters is that politicians, Hollywood and the media have never bothered with being nuanced. On the other hand, at least in the last few years, the Irish famine (or the Bengali famine of 1940's) are not ever referred to as 'genocide by the British'.

    I find a lot of this talk about 'genocide' very politicised and it does relativise it. For example the Bosnia situation - clearly a civil war with atrocities on all sides - has been painted as a one-sided genocide for political reasons, there is even a section on it in the Holocaust museum in Washington. That was done for political reasons, and it has been out of control. Today we have the 'Rohingya genocide', etc... This hyper-ventilating devalues true understanding of history. For example, it is hard to argue that armed combatants getting killed (even as POWs) is genocide. But people do for political reasons.

    I think we get into distinctions between academic research and the way popular culture presents it.

    I don’t know, are Stalinist crimes a big topic in Western popular culture, and presented as genocide? If so, I must have missed it, can’t think of any Hollywood blockbusters about the “Holodomor” (iirc there was some movie about that a few years ago…but who watched that?). Most Westerners don’t care about those issues and are more likely to regard Ukrainians, Balts etc. as Nazi collaborators in the context of WW2 than as victims of Stalinist repression.
    Agree with you about genocide…the term is often used nowadays in such a way that it’s meaningless.

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  74. AP says:
    @Beckow

    confiscating food and starving people to death
     
    If that is genocide - and it might be - then all of European history is one long genocide. The way it worked in the Middle Ages and all the way through 19th century was that landlords 'confiscated' the food, and if the peasants starved, well, too bad, their own problem. Look it up, it used to happen regularly especially during bad harvest years all over Europe. Starvation was ever-present for hundreds of years. We don't like to recall it because it makes the 'horrible' 20th century not that 'horrible' by comparison.

    Poland and Ukraine were among the most suffering areas. If an economic system is based on what is in effect a 'genocide', should we build museums about it? Would anyone take it seriously? The population in Ukraine and Kazakhstan went up between 1918 and 1941, so if there was a 'genocide' it was not very genociadial.

    In contrast the Irish famine in 1840's cut population by more than half and even today Ireland has fewer people than before the famine. Genocide? It would be impolite to accuse the British of something like that, it was, of course, 'more complex'. As we know, 'complexity' only exists in the West. Elsewhere it is all very straight-forward and no complexity is ever allowed to muddy up the narrative...

    confiscating food and starving people to death

    If that is genocide – and it might be – then all of European history is one long genocide. The way it worked in the Middle Ages and all the way through 19th century was that landlords ‘confiscated’ the food,

    So it was normal in Europe up to the 19th century for armed police to steal all the grain from starving peasants, the streets of London or Berlin had mothers and chldren dying of starvation, etc. etc.?

    About 3 million Ukrainians were starved to death in this manner.

    Look it up, it used to happen regularly especially during bad harvest years all over Europe

    In Ukraine, Volga etc. the harvest was not so bad that the people would have starved, if the government hadn’t taken all their food. That is the difference.

    The population in Ukraine and Kazakhstan went up between 1918 and 1941, so if there was a ‘genocide’ it was not very genociadial.

    You have surpassed your usual level of being disgusting, congratulations.

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    • Replies: @Beckow

    so it was normal in Europe up to the 19th century for armed police to steal all the grain from starving peasants
     
    What difference does it make it if it is 'armed police', or landlord with his posse? And, yes they used to take the grain from starving peasants.

    in Ukraine, Volga etc. the harvest was not so bad that the people would have starved, if the government hadn’t taken all their food
     
    It was bad enough for a shortage. In the 1,000 years of history I was talking about it was the same - there was usually just enough food for the peasants, but the landlords took it. So after that, there wasn't enough food and many peasants starved. Genocide? You tell us...

    (I reach higher levels all the time, thank you for noticing...)

    , @Anon

    So it was normal in Europe up to the 19th century for armed police to steal all the grain from starving peasants, the streets of London or Berlin had mothers and chldren dying of starvation, etc. etc.?
     
    No, but the streets of Dublin did.
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  75. @AP

    confiscating food and starving people to death

    If that is genocide – and it might be – then all of European history is one long genocide. The way it worked in the Middle Ages and all the way through 19th century was that landlords ‘confiscated’ the food,
     
    So it was normal in Europe up to the 19th century for armed police to steal all the grain from starving peasants, the streets of London or Berlin had mothers and chldren dying of starvation, etc. etc.?

    About 3 million Ukrainians were starved to death in this manner.


    Look it up, it used to happen regularly especially during bad harvest years all over Europe
     
    In Ukraine, Volga etc. the harvest was not so bad that the people would have starved, if the government hadn't taken all their food. That is the difference.

    The population in Ukraine and Kazakhstan went up between 1918 and 1941, so if there was a ‘genocide’ it was not very genociadial.
     
    You have surpassed your usual level of being disgusting, congratulations.

    so it was normal in Europe up to the 19th century for armed police to steal all the grain from starving peasants

    What difference does it make it if it is ‘armed police’, or landlord with his posse? And, yes they used to take the grain from starving peasants.

    in Ukraine, Volga etc. the harvest was not so bad that the people would have starved, if the government hadn’t taken all their food

    It was bad enough for a shortage. In the 1,000 years of history I was talking about it was the same – there was usually just enough food for the peasants, but the landlords took it. So after that, there wasn’t enough food and many peasants starved. Genocide? You tell us…

    (I reach higher levels all the time, thank you for noticing…)

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    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    You don’t understand the details and so have a false picture both of earlier famines and of the Bolshevik manufactured famines.
    , @AP

    What difference does it make it if it is ‘armed police’, or landlord with his posse? And, yes they used to take the grain from starving peasants.
     
    Do you have evidence of Lord's posses taking food from starving peasants?

    I looked at some European famines and this stuff wasn't mentioned. For example:

    https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grande_famine_de_1693-1694

    Government stopped wheat exports to try to relieve it.

    No mention of peasants starving to death because Lords took all the food during the Finnish famine:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Famine_of_1695%E2%80%931697

    It was caused by catastrophic harvest.

    Czech famines:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Famines_in_Czech_lands

    Caused by grain disease.

    The Soviet famine was not caused by grain disease or catastrophic harvest. It was purely mad-made - caused by confiscating grain and food, and exporting enough grain that had been stolen from the starving peasants, to feed 5 million people.
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  76. @Beckow

    so it was normal in Europe up to the 19th century for armed police to steal all the grain from starving peasants
     
    What difference does it make it if it is 'armed police', or landlord with his posse? And, yes they used to take the grain from starving peasants.

    in Ukraine, Volga etc. the harvest was not so bad that the people would have starved, if the government hadn’t taken all their food
     
    It was bad enough for a shortage. In the 1,000 years of history I was talking about it was the same - there was usually just enough food for the peasants, but the landlords took it. So after that, there wasn't enough food and many peasants starved. Genocide? You tell us...

    (I reach higher levels all the time, thank you for noticing...)

    You don’t understand the details and so have a false picture both of earlier famines and of the Bolshevik manufactured famines.

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    • Replies: @Beckow
    That is one of the more vacuous responses I have seen here.
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  77. AP says:
    @Beckow

    so it was normal in Europe up to the 19th century for armed police to steal all the grain from starving peasants
     
    What difference does it make it if it is 'armed police', or landlord with his posse? And, yes they used to take the grain from starving peasants.

    in Ukraine, Volga etc. the harvest was not so bad that the people would have starved, if the government hadn’t taken all their food
     
    It was bad enough for a shortage. In the 1,000 years of history I was talking about it was the same - there was usually just enough food for the peasants, but the landlords took it. So after that, there wasn't enough food and many peasants starved. Genocide? You tell us...

    (I reach higher levels all the time, thank you for noticing...)

    What difference does it make it if it is ‘armed police’, or landlord with his posse? And, yes they used to take the grain from starving peasants.

    Do you have evidence of Lord’s posses taking food from starving peasants?

    I looked at some European famines and this stuff wasn’t mentioned. For example:

    https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grande_famine_de_1693-1694

    Government stopped wheat exports to try to relieve it.

    No mention of peasants starving to death because Lords took all the food during the Finnish famine:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Famine_of_1695%E2%80%931697

    It was caused by catastrophic harvest.

    Czech famines:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Famines_in_Czech_lands

    Caused by grain disease.

    The Soviet famine was not caused by grain disease or catastrophic harvest. It was purely mad-made – caused by confiscating grain and food, and exporting enough grain that had been stolen from the starving peasants, to feed 5 million people.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Beckow

    Do you have evidence of Lord’s posses taking food from starving peasants?
     
    You seem to get all your information from Wikipedia. That's not a good source. One example I can give you is 1830's famine in eastern Hungary/Slovakia/Sub-Carpathian Ukraine. Heavy rains and poor harvests caused grain shortage, prices sky-rocketed, landlords with gendarmes roamed villages taking all food they could get their hands on. People starved, landlords sold to intermediaries (mostly Jewish) and made a killing. Some peasants retaliated by burning down a few manors - and again gendarmes suppressed it. This was one of the triggers for the 1848 abolishing of feudal responsibilities in Hungary.

    Similar acts are well documented in the late 18th century France, 30-year war in Germany, in the Balkans by Ottomans etc... Wikipedia is not in the business of describing the feudal era too critically (it lasted legally until late 19th century in most of Europe). The focus of Wiki is on the 20th century atrocities, they seldom ask why were most people so pissed off that they went bloody mad about any landlords, intermediaries, etc...

    There is also the silly modern Western mentality of pretending that somehow we are all descendants of knights and lords, that it was all about chivalry and sword fights. It wasn't, the atrocities and the revenge in the 2oth century didn't happen in a vacuum.

    , @Philip Owen
    Without Trotsky looting the granaries of Saratov, Moscow would have starved instead and the Bolsheviks would likely have been defeated.
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  78. @German_reader

    While Karlin for obvious reasons can do nothing but loathe Adolf Hitler and the Nazis for Generalplan Ost, I’m sure he would agree that a successful Generalplan Ost would’ve been very positive for Germans
     
    Nazi racial violence was hugely counter-productive for the German war effort...probably the only way Germany could have defeated the Soviet Union or forced a favorable negotiated settlement - at least after the failure to take Moscow in 1941 - would have been mass enlistment of Soviet peoples on the German side. Kind of hard to do that though when you deliberately starve to death millions of pows and make it more than clear that you intend to enslave or just murder the native population. This was a huge wasted opportunity. Even as it was, despite Hitler's opposition and German refusal to make any credible promises regarding some sort of future statehood or autonomy for Soviet peoples, an estimated 800 000 Russians (that is ethnic Russians, not members of peripheral peoples like Balts, Chechens, Crimean Tartars etc. who were even more enthusiastic) served in some form in German forces, and the Germans even found a suitable figurehead for a national Russian anti-Bolshevik movement in General Vlasov. Who knows what might have been possible if the goal hadn't been racially motivated mass killings to make room for Germanic settlers, but merely ending the communist system, some sort of economic influence and German hegemony over Eastern Europe? For the latter objective it might even have been useful to cultivate Jewish communities as allies since they often had some affinity for German culture and were in conflict with native nationalists. So Nazi racial policies were rather self-defeating.
    Genocide can "work" of course if you get away with it, like the Turks did, but if you fail it's probably going to make things much worse for you (and regarding Amerindians in North America, apart from some cases like California, can this really be described as "genocide"? My understanding is Amerindian populations in North America had probably always been smaller than in South America, and in any case were decimated on an almost unimaginable scale by European diseases already in the 16th/17th century, before they came into much contact with English settlers).

    So Nazi racial policies were rather self-defeating.

    Some of the brighter German generals like Canaris said as much. More than that, the hypocrisy of the Third Reich was also sometimes outright hilarious. I remember reading a book focusing on the German invasion of Poland where Himmler expressed his astonishment that he saw more blonds in Poland than he had in Germany.

    Of course, the Germans also snatched hundreds of thousands of Polish children – selected for their supposedly “Aryan” features – and gave them to German foster parents. Some of those are now advancing law suits against the German state in old age. I wish them well, though I think the odds of winning are abysmal since the current German governments can’t really be held responsible.

    My understanding is Amerindian populations in North America had probably always been smaller than in South America, and in any case were decimated on an almost unimaginable scale by European diseases

    On top of that, they were not united as a block as it is often portrayed. Many of them genocided each other and sided with various European powers. The French had their own set of alliances vs the English and so on.

    That said, there were certainly elements of genocide in the wars against the native Americans, but the debate is whether this was consciously done to them or if this was a byproduct of other policies which were allowed to proceed.

    merely ending the communist system, some sort of economic influence and German hegemony over Eastern Europe? For the latter objective it might even have been useful to cultivate Jewish communities as allies since they often had some affinity for German culture and were in conflict with native nationalists.

    This strikes me as shockingly naïve if not ahistorical. Jews in Eastern Europe were absolutely at the center of the support for communism. Just as they were in the US at the same time. (Largely due to the huge influx of – you guessed it – Eastern European Jews).

    It is true that Jews were often hostile to native nationalists – as they are today as well. But cultivating them as a shield against the native population would have turbocharged the notion that Germans are out to exploit you and are willing to buddy up with Jews to do so. It would have been idiotic on so many levels and essentially guaranteed eternal hostility and a very easy way for Stalin, who was no great friend of Jews, to win back a lot of local loyalty.

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    • Replies: @German_reader

    I wish them well, though I think the odds of winning are abysmal since the current German governments can’t really be held responsible.
     
    Well, in a legal sense the federal republic is the successor state to Nazi Germany, but probably the reaction will be to play for time and hope the plaintiffs die before any settlement, like happened with the issues of forced labourers (yes, the German establishment can be quite cynical...which makes the suicidal "humanitarianism" in regards to Afghans, Syrians and Somalis all the more bizarre).

    On top of that, they were not united as a block as it is often portrayed.
     
    It's interesting how diverse the Amerindians were linguistically...apparently there were dozens of language families (!) and hundreds of different languages...so ethnically it was much more fragmented than in the old world (iirc the likely explanation is the lack of horses before the arrival of Europeans, and other ecological and technological limitations which hindered formation of larger ethnocultural blocs).

    This strikes me as shockingly naïve if not ahistorical. Jews in Eastern Europe were absolutely at the center of the support for communism.

     

    Sure, I don't doubt that Eastern European communists were vastly disproportionately Jewish...but still, most Eastern European Jews weren't communists; in any case German exterminationist policy towards Jews wasn't really rational, even if one has a negative view of Jews.
    Regarding Stalin, my impression is that he turned really anti-Jewish only in the late 1940s, getting somewhat paranoid about potential Jewish dual loyalties after the creation of Israel (not much different how he had earlier viewed other ethnic groups like Poles, Finns - or even Koreans - which had ethnic connections to other states). I read an interesting study about Latvia during WW2 a few years ago, and there it was claimed that during the Soviet occupation of 1940/41 the Soviets made a big show of combating antisemitism (unsurprisingly Latvian communist party members were mostly of Jewish or ethnic Russian background...facts the Germans used for their propaganda), with the situation probably being similar in the other Baltic states and former Eastern Poland (don't know about specific studies for those). This obviously contradicts the view of Stalin's supposedly persistent antisemitism that is often presented nowadays.
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  79. @Polish Perspective

    So Nazi racial policies were rather self-defeating.
     
    Some of the brighter German generals like Canaris said as much. More than that, the hypocrisy of the Third Reich was also sometimes outright hilarious. I remember reading a book focusing on the German invasion of Poland where Himmler expressed his astonishment that he saw more blonds in Poland than he had in Germany.

    Of course, the Germans also snatched hundreds of thousands of Polish children - selected for their supposedly "Aryan" features - and gave them to German foster parents. Some of those are now advancing law suits against the German state in old age. I wish them well, though I think the odds of winning are abysmal since the current German governments can't really be held responsible.

    My understanding is Amerindian populations in North America had probably always been smaller than in South America, and in any case were decimated on an almost unimaginable scale by European diseases
     
    On top of that, they were not united as a block as it is often portrayed. Many of them genocided each other and sided with various European powers. The French had their own set of alliances vs the English and so on.

    That said, there were certainly elements of genocide in the wars against the native Americans, but the debate is whether this was consciously done to them or if this was a byproduct of other policies which were allowed to proceed.


    merely ending the communist system, some sort of economic influence and German hegemony over Eastern Europe? For the latter objective it might even have been useful to cultivate Jewish communities as allies since they often had some affinity for German culture and were in conflict with native nationalists.
     
    This strikes me as shockingly naïve if not ahistorical. Jews in Eastern Europe were absolutely at the center of the support for communism. Just as they were in the US at the same time. (Largely due to the huge influx of - you guessed it - Eastern European Jews).

    It is true that Jews were often hostile to native nationalists - as they are today as well. But cultivating them as a shield against the native population would have turbocharged the notion that Germans are out to exploit you and are willing to buddy up with Jews to do so. It would have been idiotic on so many levels and essentially guaranteed eternal hostility and a very easy way for Stalin, who was no great friend of Jews, to win back a lot of local loyalty.

    I wish them well, though I think the odds of winning are abysmal since the current German governments can’t really be held responsible.

    Well, in a legal sense the federal republic is the successor state to Nazi Germany, but probably the reaction will be to play for time and hope the plaintiffs die before any settlement, like happened with the issues of forced labourers (yes, the German establishment can be quite cynical…which makes the suicidal “humanitarianism” in regards to Afghans, Syrians and Somalis all the more bizarre).

    On top of that, they were not united as a block as it is often portrayed.

    It’s interesting how diverse the Amerindians were linguistically…apparently there were dozens of language families (!) and hundreds of different languages…so ethnically it was much more fragmented than in the old world (iirc the likely explanation is the lack of horses before the arrival of Europeans, and other ecological and technological limitations which hindered formation of larger ethnocultural blocs).

    This strikes me as shockingly naïve if not ahistorical. Jews in Eastern Europe were absolutely at the center of the support for communism.

    Sure, I don’t doubt that Eastern European communists were vastly disproportionately Jewish…but still, most Eastern European Jews weren’t communists; in any case German exterminationist policy towards Jews wasn’t really rational, even if one has a negative view of Jews.
    Regarding Stalin, my impression is that he turned really anti-Jewish only in the late 1940s, getting somewhat paranoid about potential Jewish dual loyalties after the creation of Israel (not much different how he had earlier viewed other ethnic groups like Poles, Finns – or even Koreans – which had ethnic connections to other states). I read an interesting study about Latvia during WW2 a few years ago, and there it was claimed that during the Soviet occupation of 1940/41 the Soviets made a big show of combating antisemitism (unsurprisingly Latvian communist party members were mostly of Jewish or ethnic Russian background…facts the Germans used for their propaganda), with the situation probably being similar in the other Baltic states and former Eastern Poland (don’t know about specific studies for those). This obviously contradicts the view of Stalin’s supposedly persistent antisemitism that is often presented nowadays.

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  80. Of course, the Germans also snatched hundreds of thousands of Polish children – selected for their supposedly “Aryan” features – and gave them to German foster parents

    It it is well known that there have been Germans migrating eastwards through history, so there is nothing hypocritical or hilarious of finding Aryans in Poland and beyond.

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    • Replies: @German_reader
    Aryans belong in Iran or somewhere else in Asia...it's a meaningless, made up term in a European context.
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  81. @neutral

    Of course, the Germans also snatched hundreds of thousands of Polish children – selected for their supposedly “Aryan” features – and gave them to German foster parents
     
    It it is well known that there have been Germans migrating eastwards through history, so there is nothing hypocritical or hilarious of finding Aryans in Poland and beyond.

    Aryans belong in Iran or somewhere else in Asia…it’s a meaningless, made up term in a European context.

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    • Replies: @neutral
    Most people know what the term implies, it implies white with Nordic type physical features. It also pertains to the Indo European people that migrated into places like India and Iran, these people were white but ended up race mixing with the other people living there, so it is not correct to call Iranians Aryans because of all the miscegenation that occurred through the centuries.

    The term is not meaningless, the jews really don't what such things discussed openly, so they attack in every way possible.
    , @Bliss

    Aryans belong in Iran or somewhere else in Asia…it’s a meaningless, made up term in a European context.
     
    Actually the only people who have consistently and continuously used the word Aryan (Arya in Sanskrit) and the symbol swastika (also a Sanskrit word) for thousands of years are the Brahmins of India.

    You are right that it is foreign and meaningless in Europe.

    Aryan = Nordic is a classic example of fake history and pseudo-science that was concocted by crackpot nordicists (Gobineau et al) in the 19th century.
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  82. @Polish Perspective

    "Polish minister calls for commemoration of non-Jewish victims of WWII. "

    Envious. ROGPR has long argued that a Russian national state needs its own genocide museum. Russians were the victims of three genocides in the past century.
     

    Why do you think there hasn't been a movement on it? Do you think it is mainly elite objections? If so, what would they be (in your view)? Are there grassroots movements among ordinary Russians for one?

    The US is so zogged that it is telling Poland that it shouldn’t count on a meeting with Trump or Pence because of their anti-Polish holocaust law.
     
    I'm not surprised. I've been following the complete and utter degeneration of the Trump presidency quite closely. Hunter Wallace at Occidental Dissent has been great, even if he has been attacked viciously by the Trumptards. Really since Bannon was fired it was all downhill, and even Bannon had severe problems. He tried to fundraise among Jewish GOP donors to unseat "the establishment". Why would the establishment fundraise to unseat themselves? The idiot Bannon never knew what hit him and he got purged from Breitbart within six months. FYI:

    https://i.imgur.com/aKQ2G6v.png

    When Mike Enoch talks about the 'kosher sandwich' of public "debate" in America, this is what he means. That's why this news is the least surprising news ever.

    As for Poland's chances to win this fight, I am skeptical in the long term. Poles are quite liberal and very obsessed to be liked by the West. I don't view Russia as hostile, but as things stand, it is not actively our friend either.

    I was impressed by Germany's actions during the entire affair and it once again re-affirmed the flank of those, tiny in the public sphere, who call for closer relations with Germany over that of America. Germany will never be as important as the US in military terms - for obvious reasons - but I am now at the point where I believe we can only rely on an independent nuclear deterrent and nothing else.

    Still, there are limits to ZOG's actions as well. They are absolutely obsessed with destroying Russia at any price. A more pro-Russian Poland would be a disaster in their eyes, which is why Poland's hand is strangely better than it would have been otherwise. This is why I fully expect a concerted campaign to re-elect PO and the previous ZOG lapdogs(PiS are too, but not even to the same extreme extent. Sikorski openly talks of appeasing the Jewish diaspora in his latest speech). If internal change does not come about, we will be at a deadlock, I think, for years to come.

    If nothing else, the whole affair is slowly redpilling a lot of Poles, who have been indoctrinated with one-sided Judeophilia in their schools since the fall of the wall. Turns out that those who we are told are our "brotherly peoples" like to spit in our face and for the longest time we have done nothing about it. This long running controversy is filling forcing people to deal with this fantasy, but the process will be long and I don't expect any immediate returns on investment in terms of changed (and lasting) attitudes until years into the future.

    but I am now at the point where I believe we can only rely on an independent nuclear deterrent and nothing else.

    Every sane country should be developing its own nuclear deterrent as fast as possible.

    If you don’t have your own nukes your only option is to choose whose vassal you’re going to be. And you probably won’t even get that choice.

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  83. @Polish Perspective
    I largely agree with you, but I still think AK's point stands. Naturally the white South Africans would prefer to live in Ireland or the Netherlands or the UK over, say, Poland. They already know English, and Afrikaans is very close linguistically to Dutch IIRC. On top of that, those countries are wealthier, too.

    But there would still be a propaganda victory, because these people do deserve to be given refugee status for genuine persecution. I am personally skeptical over just how many would take the offer. A lot of Boers are religiously fundamentalist and many of them have roots going back many centuries. They will quite literally rather be dead than moving out. Most of the people who had more tenuous feelings towards the nation already left in the 90s and early 2000s. Chain migration works for whites, too, you know. It wouldn't be that hard for the numerous white South Africans in Australia or the UK to bring along their extended family if they really put their minds to it.

    One of the most redplling but also blackpilling things about South Africa is how it underscores that there is no Magic Threshold below which whites will suddenly "wake up". You can be 5%-10% of the population, brutalised, and still be largely bluepilled on race, which is what the Boers in SA are. This only underlines the importance of metapolitics and to never, ever take anything for granted. A lot of US WN made the same mistake with Trump. Just elect him and watch him fight for you. Then he completely sold out to ZOG. Now some of the retards are refusing to admit it, and attack those who see it.

    There are simply no short cuts. One has to build an ethnocentric cultural foundation and it will be arduous work, spanning decades. White flight, magically hoping for a "sudden collapse" or for there to be some kind of "magic threshold" when the white population reaches a certain percentage and "wakes up", none of those things will save you. As South Africa shows very clearly.

    The final lesson on South Africa is that the architects of Apartheid failed not because they were too cruel, but because they weren't radical enough. They should have gone for complete separation, in different countries. Instead they floundered and went for partial separation (read: segregation) in the same country. That failure to do final closure is now coming back to haunt them. It is also why civic nationalism, even when laced with racial realism, will always fail.

    One of the most redplling but also blackpilling things about South Africa is how it underscores that there is no Magic Threshold below which whites will suddenly “wake up”. You can be 5%-10% of the population, brutalised, and still be largely bluepilled on race, which is what the Boers in SA are.

    Agreed.

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    • Replies: @StripeyCat
    Not necessarily. There are divisions within white South Africa. The farmers being murdered appear to have a different mentality from the more coastal whites, often Anglos, not Boers. It is hard to know from thousands of km away.
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  84. @Thorfinnsson
    The real problem is the cuck take that genocide is necessarily bad.

    The United States owes much of its superiority over Latin America to the successful genocide of the red Indians.

    While Karlin for obvious reasons can do nothing but loathe Adolf Hitler and the Nazis for Generalplan Ost, I'm sure he would agree that a successful Generalplan Ost would've been very positive for Germans (the world would be impoverished by the loss of Russians of course, but all the other ethnic groups between Germany and Russia strike me as irrelevant).

    And this exists in lesser forms as well. Quite clearly the ethnocide of the Ukraine (not physical annihilation, just elimination of the Ukrainian dialect and the absurd idea that an independent Ukrainian culture and nation exist or should exist) would be beneficial for everyone--even Ukrainians.

    Such ethnocides were successfully implemented in most Western European nations (ever heard of Low German or Occitan?), and presently China is currently conducting many such ethnocides with useless regional languages and identities.

    Let us turn this around.

    The disappearance of Germans and Swedes such as yourself would a positive for eastern europe and the world in general.

    Unless you really feel that herd animal conformity and autism are the wealth of mankind.

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    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson


    Let us turn this around.

    The disappearance of Germans and Swedes such as yourself would a positive for eastern europe and the world in general.

    Unless you really feel that herd animal conformity and autism are the wealth of mankind.
     
    The world in general? Certainly not. I doubt the commenters on this site need me to explain this.

    But Eastern Europe? Of course.
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  85. @Jaakko Raipala

    In contrast the Irish famine in 1840′s cut population by more than half and even today Ireland has fewer people than before the famine. Genocide? It would be impolite to accuse the British of something like that, it was, of course, ‘more complex’.
     
    I don't know what you're smoking, growing up on American media I learned that there were multiple genocidal campaigns against the Irish from Cromwell to the famine. I was surprised to read more "complex", "nuanced" ie non-pop-culture accounts were the Irish famine wasn't presented as a literal genocide and an intentional imperial plan.

    The evil white supremacist British empire that genocided the Irish who weren't considered white is a standard Western pop Marxist culture "truth" that has found a perfect home in America - Americans love to believe bad things about the British aristocracy, Hollywood Jews are all Marxists who hate European empires and Irishmen are well represented in American media and leftist movements.

    By the way, there was a famine just after the Irish ones in Finland that killed a higher proportion of the population...

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Famine_of_1866%E2%80%9368

    ...but you've never heard of it. There was no one to politicize it. Commies and Finnish ethnonationalists (almost the same thing) tried to turn it into a narrative of Germanic aristocrats and Russian imperial schemers intentionally wanting to limit ethnic Finnish population growth but they lost the Civil War so in our first history writing aristocrats, landowners and the empire were the good guys. If our Reds had won they'd have teamed up with Red Russia and perhaps their narrative of famine-genocide in Finland would have made it to Soviet tropes the way "Irish genocide" has made it to American tropes.

    To have a "genocide" you need not only dead people, you need some interested party with financial and cultural influence to craft it into a narrative. (Actually the dead people are optional.)

    The Irish famine is more well known in the west than the holodomor, that is clear to everyone except, I guess, Russians playing the usual whataboutism.

    The argument we were given in school was that England exported food while the Irish were starving therefore Deliberate Genocide by the racist captitalist English against the poor colonised Irish. The problem is that The England government had no food supply. It was exported by merchants in Cork and Dublin who were middle class Irish wih no interest in their supposed fellow countrymen in the interior. But a lot of English are Cucks like Tony Blair. They will foist blame for the Irish potato blight, black incarceration rates (Russians love that one too), impoverished third gen Bangladeshis or hurt gay feelings on the country as a whole then weaponise them. The truth is irrelevant to our rulers.

    Russians joining in with the usual victm groups to smear western nations is interesting because it shows that a lot of Russians (most?) see the west as The Other, not something Russia is itself part of. In this respect they are like the others (Chinese, Africans, Jews and Muslims) cynically taking advantage of current western weakness.

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    • Replies: @Pavlo

    whataboutism
     
    Only the denizens of the Pedoph Isles would invent a whole new gibberish word to bitch about being called hypocrites (they are and you are).
    , @Mitleser

    The problem is that The England government had no food supply. It was exported by merchants in Cork and Dublin who were middle class Irish wih no interest in their supposed fellow countrymen in the interior.
     
    The government in London was the government of Ireland.
    If they wanted to, they could have stopped it.

    Russians joining in with the usual victm groups to smear western nations is interesting because it shows that a lot of Russians (most?) see the west as The Other, not something Russia is itself part of.
     
    That is how Russians are treated. As the Other. What did you expect?
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  86. @dfordoom

    One of the most redplling but also blackpilling things about South Africa is how it underscores that there is no Magic Threshold below which whites will suddenly “wake up”. You can be 5%-10% of the population, brutalised, and still be largely bluepilled on race, which is what the Boers in SA are.
     
    Agreed.

    Not necessarily. There are divisions within white South Africa. The farmers being murdered appear to have a different mentality from the more coastal whites, often Anglos, not Boers. It is hard to know from thousands of km away.

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  87. @StripeyCat
    The Irish famine is more well known in the west than the holodomor, that is clear to everyone except, I guess, Russians playing the usual whataboutism.

    The argument we were given in school was that England exported food while the Irish were starving therefore Deliberate Genocide by the racist captitalist English against the poor colonised Irish. The problem is that The England government had no food supply. It was exported by merchants in Cork and Dublin who were middle class Irish wih no interest in their supposed fellow countrymen in the interior. But a lot of English are Cucks like Tony Blair. They will foist blame for the Irish potato blight, black incarceration rates (Russians love that one too), impoverished third gen Bangladeshis or hurt gay feelings on the country as a whole then weaponise them. The truth is irrelevant to our rulers.

    Russians joining in with the usual victm groups to smear western nations is interesting because it shows that a lot of Russians (most?) see the west as The Other, not something Russia is itself part of. In this respect they are like the others (Chinese, Africans, Jews and Muslims) cynically taking advantage of current western weakness.

    whataboutism

    Only the denizens of the Pedoph Isles would invent a whole new gibberish word to bitch about being called hypocrites (they are and you are).

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  88. @German_reader
    Aryans belong in Iran or somewhere else in Asia...it's a meaningless, made up term in a European context.

    Most people know what the term implies, it implies white with Nordic type physical features. It also pertains to the Indo European people that migrated into places like India and Iran, these people were white but ended up race mixing with the other people living there, so it is not correct to call Iranians Aryans because of all the miscegenation that occurred through the centuries.

    The term is not meaningless, the jews really don’t what such things discussed openly, so they attack in every way possible.

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    • Replies: @Greasy William
    So when Iranians go out of their way to describe themselves as Aryans at every chance they get, that is also part of the Jewish conspiracy? Are the Iranians working for the Jews or have they just been brainwashed by them?
    , @Jaakko Raipala
    Here's a typical racial classification map by 19th century German ethnographers:

    http://images.zeno.org/Meyers-1905/I/big/Wm13610a.jpg

    Iranians are considered Aryans, as always, and so are Kurds and Armenians.

    "Aryan" was never some word meaning blonde, Nordic or Germanic looks. Not even those Nazi theorists at SS Ahnenerbe tended to use it in that sense, their racial world history theories were about claiming that the original Aryans looked Nordic, not that "Aryan" was some physical description itself. You should probably just stop getting your information from Jewish Hollywood movies.
    , @German_reader
    That's still kind of dumb since it implies only blond and blue-eyed Nordics are true Europeans/whites with everyone else being some sort of "racial degenerate". Not a programme most Europeans will get behind (and no, that isn't just due to "Jewish influence").
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  89. I was waiting for an OT thread to ask these questions. These questions are for the whole board but I’m particularly interested in Anatoly’s response so I hope he answers.

    Question: In exchange for 10 billion USD tax free would you be willing to:

    A) Become a vegan
    B) Exchange faces with the ugliest guy in your high school graduating class
    C) Give up 6 inches off your height (I don’t know what that is in metric units. This is America, speak English.)
    D) Give up alcohol (this is an easy one for Talha).
    E) Give up one of your pinky toes (keep in mind this would prevent you from walking normally)
    F) Become gay
    G) Give up the internet

    Here are my answers:

    A) No.
    B) This is a really tough one. That dude was hideous. I’m gonna say no but not sure that I would actually be able to turn down all that money.
    C) Yes. Hell yes.
    D) I don’t drink, but I do have two cans of lemonade a day. I would give that up.
    E) Yes. Fuck, I would give up an entire foot.
    F) No.
    G) No.

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    • LOL: Talha
    • Replies: @German_reader
    No to everything except D) (I don't drink alcohol anyway). You should stop drinking lemonade, it's goint to rot your teeth.
    , @neutral
    There are much more important things in life than whoring (because that is what all of those things are in the end) oneself out for money. There is no money in all the universe that one should degrade oneself for, no matter how trivial it is.
    , @for-the-record
    A, D, E, G

    A. Vegetarian would be no sacrifice, vegan would be quite a bit harder but probably doable.

    D. A bunch of teetotalers here (you, G_R, Trump for that matter). A sacrifice, but doable.

    E. It seems you've considerably exaggerated the sacrifice involved:

    FYI: Do I Really Need My Pinky Toe?

    Walking, running and skipping with just four toes may be easier than you think.

    "If you're born without a pinky toe or have an accident and it's removed, you can completely do everything you wanted to do," Dr. Anne Holly Johnson, instructor in orthopaedic surgery at Harvard Medical School, says.

    https://www.popsci.com/science/article/2013-05/fyi-do-i-really-need-my-pinky-toe
     
    G. Give up the Internet? It's great to be in contact with all you guys, of course, but not at that price.
    , @reiner Tor
    The problem is it’s totally unrealistic. No one is going to pay you that much to cut off your pinky toe or make you gay. Besides, how would it be controlled? We tend to think about things in terms of whether we’d be able to cheat. So I cannot fully answer, but maybe I’d accept all except F.

    Regarding F. Would it be possible to become celibate? How would it be controlled? Would some heterosexual contacts be accepted, like blowjobs? Would it be okay if I only had blowjobs from supermodels while not having any homosexual sex at all? Again, it’s unrealistic.

    Maybe I’d accept F if it meant I only was permitted to penetrate guys only and not women, but wouldn’t have to penetrate guys or allow them to penetrate me and some workarounds would be permissible. While maybe having children with artificial insemination.

    I could start a nationalist Facebook or Twitter or something with that money. It’s about saving our civilization, for which I’d need to sacrifice.
    , @Randal
    Part of the problem is that you are talking about an amount that brings real power, so the issue is rather complicated by questions of duty and sacrifice (maybe that's intentional), as rT pointed out.

    Perhaps it would be interesting to compare answers to the same question with the amount set at, say, $10m. At that figure it brings personal comfort and security that is presently unavailable to the vast majority, but isn't enough to really change society. [Median household wealth is around £104,000 per adult in the UK, but even for someone who already has much higher wealth than that it's probably largely tied up in their house value and an extra $10m is still likely to make a huge difference in lifestyle, quality of life and financial security. At the 99th percentile wealth per adult is about £1.4 million. ]

    Money isn't a big issue for me at my stage in life - I'm not desperately short of it and the main concern is how much to leave to various offspring and how best to achieve that while legally avoiding as much as possibly of the inevitable government theft. But I certainly would find ways to spend or give away $10m if it appeared in my bank account, and very much enjoy doing so. So if that were the amount I might say yes to all except F, mostly because none of them seem like things I'd desperately miss once they were gone. (A - pretty miserable admittedly but probably bearable with some stoicism, B&C - mostly vanity issues which are less of a concern once you're mature, D - not a problem as I'm solely a social drinker, E - not a pleasant prospect but I suspect as noted above it wouldn't really have much long term impact, G - I can always find another hobby....I can stop any time.)

    But if you are talking about $10b I'd have to consider the issue of duty and sacrifice as well. The devil might well be in the details. It would be a serious dilemma.

    And then there's always the old joke to worry about:

    Now We’re Just Haggling Over the Price
    , @Daniel Chieh
    D) I don't really drink(2 beers a year do not count). Giving it up would be easy.

    I think I found his answers here.

    , @Talha
    Y,Y,Y,Y,Y,N,Y

    Honestly hilarious, but you should have made the amount lower to make the decision more difficult. Maybe like 5 million or something.

    Peace.
    , @Hippopotamusdrome
    Do you have to take all of them A-G, and does it really mean you would just become an Indian (dot)?
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  90. @neutral
    Most people know what the term implies, it implies white with Nordic type physical features. It also pertains to the Indo European people that migrated into places like India and Iran, these people were white but ended up race mixing with the other people living there, so it is not correct to call Iranians Aryans because of all the miscegenation that occurred through the centuries.

    The term is not meaningless, the jews really don't what such things discussed openly, so they attack in every way possible.

    So when Iranians go out of their way to describe themselves as Aryans at every chance they get, that is also part of the Jewish conspiracy? Are the Iranians working for the Jews or have they just been brainwashed by them?

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    • Replies: @neutral
    Iranians calling themselves Aryan has nothing to do with racial identity, which jews thus don't really care about. Whatever they describe themselves as, the fact is that Iranians of today are a product of lots of race mixing with non Aryans and thus are not real Aryans.
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  91. @StripeyCat
    The Irish famine is more well known in the west than the holodomor, that is clear to everyone except, I guess, Russians playing the usual whataboutism.

    The argument we were given in school was that England exported food while the Irish were starving therefore Deliberate Genocide by the racist captitalist English against the poor colonised Irish. The problem is that The England government had no food supply. It was exported by merchants in Cork and Dublin who were middle class Irish wih no interest in their supposed fellow countrymen in the interior. But a lot of English are Cucks like Tony Blair. They will foist blame for the Irish potato blight, black incarceration rates (Russians love that one too), impoverished third gen Bangladeshis or hurt gay feelings on the country as a whole then weaponise them. The truth is irrelevant to our rulers.

    Russians joining in with the usual victm groups to smear western nations is interesting because it shows that a lot of Russians (most?) see the west as The Other, not something Russia is itself part of. In this respect they are like the others (Chinese, Africans, Jews and Muslims) cynically taking advantage of current western weakness.

    The problem is that The England government had no food supply. It was exported by merchants in Cork and Dublin who were middle class Irish wih no interest in their supposed fellow countrymen in the interior.

    The government in London was the government of Ireland.
    If they wanted to, they could have stopped it.

    Russians joining in with the usual victm groups to smear western nations is interesting because it shows that a lot of Russians (most?) see the west as The Other, not something Russia is itself part of.

    That is how Russians are treated. As the Other. What did you expect?

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  92. @Greasy William
    So when Iranians go out of their way to describe themselves as Aryans at every chance they get, that is also part of the Jewish conspiracy? Are the Iranians working for the Jews or have they just been brainwashed by them?

    Iranians calling themselves Aryan has nothing to do with racial identity, which jews thus don’t really care about. Whatever they describe themselves as, the fact is that Iranians of today are a product of lots of race mixing with non Aryans and thus are not real Aryans.

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  93. @Greasy William
    I was waiting for an OT thread to ask these questions. These questions are for the whole board but I'm particularly interested in Anatoly's response so I hope he answers.

    Question: In exchange for 10 billion USD tax free would you be willing to:

    A) Become a vegan
    B) Exchange faces with the ugliest guy in your high school graduating class
    C) Give up 6 inches off your height (I don't know what that is in metric units. This is America, speak English.)
    D) Give up alcohol (this is an easy one for Talha).
    E) Give up one of your pinky toes (keep in mind this would prevent you from walking normally)
    F) Become gay
    G) Give up the internet

    Here are my answers:

    A) No.
    B) This is a really tough one. That dude was hideous. I'm gonna say no but not sure that I would actually be able to turn down all that money.
    C) Yes. Hell yes.
    D) I don't drink, but I do have two cans of lemonade a day. I would give that up.
    E) Yes. Fuck, I would give up an entire foot.
    F) No.
    G) No.

    No to everything except D) (I don’t drink alcohol anyway). You should stop drinking lemonade, it’s goint to rot your teeth.

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  94. @Greasy William
    I was waiting for an OT thread to ask these questions. These questions are for the whole board but I'm particularly interested in Anatoly's response so I hope he answers.

    Question: In exchange for 10 billion USD tax free would you be willing to:

    A) Become a vegan
    B) Exchange faces with the ugliest guy in your high school graduating class
    C) Give up 6 inches off your height (I don't know what that is in metric units. This is America, speak English.)
    D) Give up alcohol (this is an easy one for Talha).
    E) Give up one of your pinky toes (keep in mind this would prevent you from walking normally)
    F) Become gay
    G) Give up the internet

    Here are my answers:

    A) No.
    B) This is a really tough one. That dude was hideous. I'm gonna say no but not sure that I would actually be able to turn down all that money.
    C) Yes. Hell yes.
    D) I don't drink, but I do have two cans of lemonade a day. I would give that up.
    E) Yes. Fuck, I would give up an entire foot.
    F) No.
    G) No.

    There are much more important things in life than whoring (because that is what all of those things are in the end) oneself out for money. There is no money in all the universe that one should degrade oneself for, no matter how trivial it is.

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  95. @neutral
    Most people know what the term implies, it implies white with Nordic type physical features. It also pertains to the Indo European people that migrated into places like India and Iran, these people were white but ended up race mixing with the other people living there, so it is not correct to call Iranians Aryans because of all the miscegenation that occurred through the centuries.

    The term is not meaningless, the jews really don't what such things discussed openly, so they attack in every way possible.

    Here’s a typical racial classification map by 19th century German ethnographers:

    Iranians are considered Aryans, as always, and so are Kurds and Armenians.

    “Aryan” was never some word meaning blonde, Nordic or Germanic looks. Not even those Nazi theorists at SS Ahnenerbe tended to use it in that sense, their racial world history theories were about claiming that the original Aryans looked Nordic, not that “Aryan” was some physical description itself. You should probably just stop getting your information from Jewish Hollywood movies.

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    • Agree: reiner Tor
    • Replies: @neutral
    Just because that map was created by some German does not mean that this common mistake of labeling North Africans and Middle Easterners belonging to the same group as Europeans is correct. If you are trying to imply that Iranians would happily have been accepted into Germany as fellow Aryans, that is just nonsense. What Aryan meant was not just some "cultural" identity, it was a very real biological identity.
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  96. @neutral
    Most people know what the term implies, it implies white with Nordic type physical features. It also pertains to the Indo European people that migrated into places like India and Iran, these people were white but ended up race mixing with the other people living there, so it is not correct to call Iranians Aryans because of all the miscegenation that occurred through the centuries.

    The term is not meaningless, the jews really don't what such things discussed openly, so they attack in every way possible.

    That’s still kind of dumb since it implies only blond and blue-eyed Nordics are true Europeans/whites with everyone else being some sort of “racial degenerate”. Not a programme most Europeans will get behind (and no, that isn’t just due to “Jewish influence”).

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    • Replies: @neutral
    I never said that only Aryans are European, but I very explicitly do claim that Jews, Arabs, Turks, Iranians, Armenians, etc are not European and not white. A lot of Europeans did support the Third Reich, Hungary, Romania and Italy attacked the USSR with Germany. A lot of other territories such as France, Greece, Belgium were better off being than they are now with regards to the survival of their nations.
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  97. @Jaakko Raipala
    Here's a typical racial classification map by 19th century German ethnographers:

    http://images.zeno.org/Meyers-1905/I/big/Wm13610a.jpg

    Iranians are considered Aryans, as always, and so are Kurds and Armenians.

    "Aryan" was never some word meaning blonde, Nordic or Germanic looks. Not even those Nazi theorists at SS Ahnenerbe tended to use it in that sense, their racial world history theories were about claiming that the original Aryans looked Nordic, not that "Aryan" was some physical description itself. You should probably just stop getting your information from Jewish Hollywood movies.

    Just because that map was created by some German does not mean that this common mistake of labeling North Africans and Middle Easterners belonging to the same group as Europeans is correct. If you are trying to imply that Iranians would happily have been accepted into Germany as fellow Aryans, that is just nonsense. What Aryan meant was not just some “cultural” identity, it was a very real biological identity.

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    • Replies: @Greasy William

    If you are trying to imply that Iranians would happily have been accepted into Germany as fellow Aryans, that is just nonsense.
     
    Not in Hitler's time, but if the Nazis hadn't lost the war then National Socialism would have eventually evolved into Eurasianism. It was already headed that way by the end.
    , @Jaakko Raipala
    We can look at any racial classification map and they'll all say Iranians are Aryans. I have read a lot of old linguistic and racial books and they all say Iranians are Aryans. I even have even read SS Ahnenerbe documents, literal Nazi racial science, and Iranians are Aryans.

    None of the racial science sources say that "Aryan" means blonde, Nordic or whatever. It never meant that. There was a debate over whether the original Aryans - the proto-Indo-Europeans - were northern European looking or something else - and there actually was no consensus on it even by German scientists during the Nazi era but of course the German nationalist movement liked to claim that the original Aryans looked like Germanic people. (We actually now have some genetic data, by the way.)

    I can tell what's going on here - you're some zogbot "white nationalist" who has watched Nazis in Hollywood movies and decided that you want to be one of those cool Hollywood Nazis. No wonder your pathetic movement is going nowhere. You don't even have any idea what the Nazis that you idolize believed, all that you know about them comes from Jewish propaganda.
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  98. @German_reader
    That's still kind of dumb since it implies only blond and blue-eyed Nordics are true Europeans/whites with everyone else being some sort of "racial degenerate". Not a programme most Europeans will get behind (and no, that isn't just due to "Jewish influence").

    I never said that only Aryans are European, but I very explicitly do claim that Jews, Arabs, Turks, Iranians, Armenians, etc are not European and not white. A lot of Europeans did support the Third Reich, Hungary, Romania and Italy attacked the USSR with Germany. A lot of other territories such as France, Greece, Belgium were better off being than they are now with regards to the survival of their nations.

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    • Replies: @RadicalCenter
    You’re right that Sephardic Jews are not white or European genetically.

    Ashkenazi “Jews”, however, are heavily Italian on a widespread basis. This study found that on the maternal side, so-called Ashkenazi Jews are on average EIGHTY PERCENT Italian. That means an average 40% italian overall.

    https://geneticliteracyproject.org/2013/10/08/ashkenazi-jewish-women-descended-mostly-from-italian-converts-new-study-asserts

    Only Ashkenazi jews’ paternal lineage was found to be mostly middle eastern / near eastern.

    Finally, it appears that most Ashkenazi Jews also have Germanic or Slavic genes. (I will look for some recent genetic study on this). They didn’t merely adopt fake German, Polish, Ukrainians, and Russian names during those centuries living among white European Gentiles outside Italy.

    So the Ashkenazi “Jew” is typically half or a bit more than half white european, i.e. about half or a bit less than half Middle/Near Eastern genetically.

    This means that any alleged or implied innate superiority of Ashkenazi “Jews” — or less drastically, the genetic component of the persistent Jewish pattern of achievement and advantage — is attributable in substantial part to their white European genes.

    First, Ashkenazi “Jews”, you’re welcome ;)

    Second, whassup my bruthas and sistas (wish more of you thought of us white European people in light of our kinship).
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  99. @Thorfinnsson
    The real problem is the cuck take that genocide is necessarily bad.

    The United States owes much of its superiority over Latin America to the successful genocide of the red Indians.

    While Karlin for obvious reasons can do nothing but loathe Adolf Hitler and the Nazis for Generalplan Ost, I'm sure he would agree that a successful Generalplan Ost would've been very positive for Germans (the world would be impoverished by the loss of Russians of course, but all the other ethnic groups between Germany and Russia strike me as irrelevant).

    And this exists in lesser forms as well. Quite clearly the ethnocide of the Ukraine (not physical annihilation, just elimination of the Ukrainian dialect and the absurd idea that an independent Ukrainian culture and nation exist or should exist) would be beneficial for everyone--even Ukrainians.

    Such ethnocides were successfully implemented in most Western European nations (ever heard of Low German or Occitan?), and presently China is currently conducting many such ethnocides with useless regional languages and identities.

    A counter-example are those Irish that were already discussed – their language died but it did not turn them into loyal Englishmen. Teaching your language to your declared enemies isn’t necessarily a smart move.

    If the Germans had succeeded at killing off languages like Polish, Czech, Ukrainian etc it might have left a big part of Europe German speaking but it’s no guarantee that those newly German speaking people would have identified with Germany. If it had failed at that then you would have resentful anti-German peoples with German language skills to ally with opponents of the German regime in Germany and to ally with whatever foreign enemies Germany still had.

    Ironically, if the English had simply left the Irish language alone, they would have eventually learned English anyway in the American age. Arriving at it through that route might have ended up with an English speaking Ireland that doesn’t have an antagonistic attitude with England. Likewise, if Russia had become a world leading capitalist economy in 1917 it might have killed some neighbors like Baltic languages by now even if the hypothetical bourgeois liberal regime had tried to support local identities. Liberal capitalism has turned out to be a stronger force of cultural destruction than any totalitarianism.

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    • Agree: iffen
    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    The English, for all their merits, never attempted true ethnocides on the celtic fringe. The closest they came was the suppression of various Scottish cultural tropes after the Battle of Culloden, and that lasted only a few decades.

    Irish Papists had various legal restrictions until the middle of the 19th century, but Irish Gaelic was never banned. And Britain was relatively late to establishing compulsory public schools (prisons for children), so Irish children weren't forced to learn English at all for most of history.

    Britain's failure to properly ethnocide the celts still causes Britain issues today. Look at Scottish nationalism for instance. Objectively it's as ridiculous as Ukrainian or Canadian nationalism, and yet it's a thing.

    Beyond that we're simply talking tactics.

    You are Finnish and have some interesting things to say about Finland's history--I read all your comments. If Sweden hadn't succumbed to Russia then Finland would still be Swedish today. And ultimately Finland would have been ethnocided which would be to the advantage of both Sweden and Finland (note: not recommending such a policy today--Finland has proven itself and now English is what you should learn).
    , @LondonBob
    Ireland was always antagonistic, they had to be conquered to stop them allowing their island to be used as base for other powers to invade Britain. The Irish lost, and should be gracious losers and not whine because we did to them what they wished to do to us.
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  100. @Jaakko Raipala

    In contrast the Irish famine in 1840′s cut population by more than half and even today Ireland has fewer people than before the famine. Genocide? It would be impolite to accuse the British of something like that, it was, of course, ‘more complex’.
     
    I don't know what you're smoking, growing up on American media I learned that there were multiple genocidal campaigns against the Irish from Cromwell to the famine. I was surprised to read more "complex", "nuanced" ie non-pop-culture accounts were the Irish famine wasn't presented as a literal genocide and an intentional imperial plan.

    The evil white supremacist British empire that genocided the Irish who weren't considered white is a standard Western pop Marxist culture "truth" that has found a perfect home in America - Americans love to believe bad things about the British aristocracy, Hollywood Jews are all Marxists who hate European empires and Irishmen are well represented in American media and leftist movements.

    By the way, there was a famine just after the Irish ones in Finland that killed a higher proportion of the population...

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Famine_of_1866%E2%80%9368

    ...but you've never heard of it. There was no one to politicize it. Commies and Finnish ethnonationalists (almost the same thing) tried to turn it into a narrative of Germanic aristocrats and Russian imperial schemers intentionally wanting to limit ethnic Finnish population growth but they lost the Civil War so in our first history writing aristocrats, landowners and the empire were the good guys. If our Reds had won they'd have teamed up with Red Russia and perhaps their narrative of famine-genocide in Finland would have made it to Soviet tropes the way "Irish genocide" has made it to American tropes.

    To have a "genocide" you need not only dead people, you need some interested party with financial and cultural influence to craft it into a narrative. (Actually the dead people are optional.)

    I don’t know what you’re smoking

    Seems unduly harsh.

    Personally I didn’t interpret Beckow’s comment as making the usual simplistic leftist argument (for ulterior political and cultural reasons) that there was a British “genocide” of the Irish. I read it as criticising the prevalent hypocrisy of recognising genuine complexities in our own case (or cases where for whatever ulterior purpose sympathy for the authorities is considered appropriate), but ignoring them in other cases.

    And based on that interpretation I really can’t do other than accept the criticism as valid, both for British commentators and for the American ones mostly derived from our culture.

    It’s a cultural tic that no doubt exists to some extent in all cultures, but is particularly noticeable in the case of British and American cultures because those countries have been so globally dominant for so long (consecutively speaking). It is only partially and situationally counteracted by the Marxist inspired anti-imperialism and ethnomasochism that often reverses the take.

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  101. @neutral
    Just because that map was created by some German does not mean that this common mistake of labeling North Africans and Middle Easterners belonging to the same group as Europeans is correct. If you are trying to imply that Iranians would happily have been accepted into Germany as fellow Aryans, that is just nonsense. What Aryan meant was not just some "cultural" identity, it was a very real biological identity.

    If you are trying to imply that Iranians would happily have been accepted into Germany as fellow Aryans, that is just nonsense.

    Not in Hitler’s time, but if the Nazis hadn’t lost the war then National Socialism would have eventually evolved into Eurasianism. It was already headed that way by the end.

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  102. @reiner Tor

    South Africans have economic resources
     
    A lot of South African whites have less money than Ukrainians. There are really bad slums of white South Africans. Even the better off among them often have surprisingly little money. Yes, some are rich, but on average they are pretty poor by Western European standards.

    It’s kind of hard to emigrate and take a few hundred acres of farmland with you, even if it is some of the best in the world.

    RE: Changed attitudes toward eradication of whites in SA.

    If the extremely slow motion process that has been in place for some years now, coupled with the example of Zimbabwe didn’t register, why exactly would anyone expect a change in attitudes?

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    • Agree: RadicalCenter
    • LOL: Daniel Chieh
    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    They do emigrate, though. A country that actively welcomed them with first world standards would probably get a lot of them.
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  103. @neutral
    Just because that map was created by some German does not mean that this common mistake of labeling North Africans and Middle Easterners belonging to the same group as Europeans is correct. If you are trying to imply that Iranians would happily have been accepted into Germany as fellow Aryans, that is just nonsense. What Aryan meant was not just some "cultural" identity, it was a very real biological identity.

    We can look at any racial classification map and they’ll all say Iranians are Aryans. I have read a lot of old linguistic and racial books and they all say Iranians are Aryans. I even have even read SS Ahnenerbe documents, literal Nazi racial science, and Iranians are Aryans.

    None of the racial science sources say that “Aryan” means blonde, Nordic or whatever. It never meant that. There was a debate over whether the original Aryans – the proto-Indo-Europeans – were northern European looking or something else – and there actually was no consensus on it even by German scientists during the Nazi era but of course the German nationalist movement liked to claim that the original Aryans looked like Germanic people. (We actually now have some genetic data, by the way.)

    I can tell what’s going on here – you’re some zogbot “white nationalist” who has watched Nazis in Hollywood movies and decided that you want to be one of those cool Hollywood Nazis. No wonder your pathetic movement is going nowhere. You don’t even have any idea what the Nazis that you idolize believed, all that you know about them comes from Jewish propaganda.

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    • Replies: @neutral

    I can tell what’s going on here – you’re some zogbot “white nationalist” who has watched Nazis in Hollywood movies and decided that you want to be one of those cool Hollywood Nazis.

     

    A truly bizarre logic you are using here, exactly what Hollywood movie has "cool Nazis", they are portrayed as demons - and nothing else.

    As for all your supposed documents you have read, trying to claim that Germans and Iranians were both Aryans and thus both the same is rubbish, you are confusing the study of the migration of the Indo Eurpean people into some of the lands they ended up in as being the same as the people that live there today. Do you seriously believe that the likes of Goebbels or Himmler would have happily accepted their daughters marrying some swarthy looking modern day Iranian (take Ahmadinejad for example) and would have certified them as being of Aryan blood? Obviously they would never have tolerated this, nor would anyone else who supported the ideals the Third Reich accept this, the reason being that Iranians are simply not Aryan for those that supported the Third Reich.

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  104. @szopen
    Whites have been murdered in South Africa for years, with genocide watch warning that they are very close to being genocided and you know what? No one cares. If you would say that in some circles, they would call you racist instead, beacuse why do you care about whites in SA, when blacks also murder blacks?

    beacuse why do you care about whites in SA, when blacks also murder blacks?

    And the answer to this is?

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  105. @Jaakko Raipala
    We can look at any racial classification map and they'll all say Iranians are Aryans. I have read a lot of old linguistic and racial books and they all say Iranians are Aryans. I even have even read SS Ahnenerbe documents, literal Nazi racial science, and Iranians are Aryans.

    None of the racial science sources say that "Aryan" means blonde, Nordic or whatever. It never meant that. There was a debate over whether the original Aryans - the proto-Indo-Europeans - were northern European looking or something else - and there actually was no consensus on it even by German scientists during the Nazi era but of course the German nationalist movement liked to claim that the original Aryans looked like Germanic people. (We actually now have some genetic data, by the way.)

    I can tell what's going on here - you're some zogbot "white nationalist" who has watched Nazis in Hollywood movies and decided that you want to be one of those cool Hollywood Nazis. No wonder your pathetic movement is going nowhere. You don't even have any idea what the Nazis that you idolize believed, all that you know about them comes from Jewish propaganda.

    I can tell what’s going on here – you’re some zogbot “white nationalist” who has watched Nazis in Hollywood movies and decided that you want to be one of those cool Hollywood Nazis.

    A truly bizarre logic you are using here, exactly what Hollywood movie has “cool Nazis”, they are portrayed as demons – and nothing else.

    As for all your supposed documents you have read, trying to claim that Germans and Iranians were both Aryans and thus both the same is rubbish, you are confusing the study of the migration of the Indo Eurpean people into some of the lands they ended up in as being the same as the people that live there today. Do you seriously believe that the likes of Goebbels or Himmler would have happily accepted their daughters marrying some swarthy looking modern day Iranian (take Ahmadinejad for example) and would have certified them as being of Aryan blood? Obviously they would never have tolerated this, nor would anyone else who supported the ideals the Third Reich accept this, the reason being that Iranians are simply not Aryan for those that supported the Third Reich.

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    • Replies: @Jaakko Raipala

    Do you seriously believe that the likes of Goebbels or Himmler would have happily accepted their daughters marrying some swarthy looking modern day Iranian
     
    Completely irrelevant. German racial theorists even recognized gypsies as Aryans, yet they were persecuted.

    Again, you don't even know anything about Nazis besides what you've seen in Hollywood movies and Allied propaganda.
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  106. @for-the-record
    I don’t know what you’re smoking, . . . By the way, there was a famine just after the Irish ones in Finland that killed a higher proportion of the population

    It seems to me that you're the one who should be careful what he is smoking.


    In Finland the famine is known as "the great hunger years", or suuret nälkävuodet. About 8.5% of the entire population died of hunger
     
    In Ireland the death toll is estimated at 1,000,000 to 1.5 million, out of a pre-famine population of 8 million, which taking the minimum figure represents 12.5% of the pre-famine population.

    Still, I will admit that you are absolutely correct that few people know about the Finnish famine, it is certainly news for me. The reason so many Americans know about the Irish famine, of course, is not so much the deaths (by themselves), as that a million Irish emigrated because of the famine, nearly all of them going to the US. And today the Irish-American population is around 35 million (while the Finnish-American population is less than a million, I believe).

    Ok, you’re right, I got the death % confused with this other famine in my memory.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Famine_of_1695%E2%80%931697

    There was a political attempt to capitalize on this one, too, as the Russians spread the word of how (supposedly) shocked Tsar Peter had been while traveling through Estonia during the famine and the Great Northern War was preceded by Russian propaganda efforts painting Swedish aristocracy as negligent and hostile to peasants.

    The war didn’t make Russia very popular, though…

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    • Replies: @for-the-record
    I didn't realize that the Finnish population was so small in those days -- only 300,000 or so after the famine.
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  107. @German_reader

    Well, if Stalin collectivization in the West is officially called genocide
     
    My impression is most serious Western academics don't regard the collectivization famines of the early 1930s as intentional genocide like some Ukrainian nationalists claim, so I don't see where that "officially called genocide" comes from...have there been any resolutions by Western legislatures to that effect (like there have been about the Armenian genocide)?

    I don’t see where that “officially called genocide” comes from…have there been any resolutions by Western legislatures to that effect (like there have been about the Armenian genocide)?

    Saskatchewan became the first jurisdiction in North America and the first province in Canada to recognize the Holodomor as a genocide.[144] The Ukrainian Famine and Genocide (Holodomor) Memorial Day Act was introduced in the Saskatchewan Legislature on May 6, 2008[145] and received royal assent on May 14, 2008.”

    According to this, Russia has every reason to declare Yeltsin’s “reforms” genocide, organized by the United States and the European Union. Accordingly, a law should be introduced punishing the denial of genocide, after which any Pro-Western political forces will go to prison forever (or even immediately to the gallows).
    The current authorities will not take such a step (they are too much connected with Yeltsin and still hope to cooperate with the West), but the next generation of politicians will probably take such steps (if of course we will avoid a thermonuclear war).

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    • Replies: @German_reader
    Interesting, I didn't know about Saskatchewan, thanks. I don't think some Canadian province is that important though, obviously due to Ukrainian lobbyism in multiculti Canada, not to any widespread interest in the issue.
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  108. @neutral

    I can tell what’s going on here – you’re some zogbot “white nationalist” who has watched Nazis in Hollywood movies and decided that you want to be one of those cool Hollywood Nazis.

     

    A truly bizarre logic you are using here, exactly what Hollywood movie has "cool Nazis", they are portrayed as demons - and nothing else.

    As for all your supposed documents you have read, trying to claim that Germans and Iranians were both Aryans and thus both the same is rubbish, you are confusing the study of the migration of the Indo Eurpean people into some of the lands they ended up in as being the same as the people that live there today. Do you seriously believe that the likes of Goebbels or Himmler would have happily accepted their daughters marrying some swarthy looking modern day Iranian (take Ahmadinejad for example) and would have certified them as being of Aryan blood? Obviously they would never have tolerated this, nor would anyone else who supported the ideals the Third Reich accept this, the reason being that Iranians are simply not Aryan for those that supported the Third Reich.

    Do you seriously believe that the likes of Goebbels or Himmler would have happily accepted their daughters marrying some swarthy looking modern day Iranian

    Completely irrelevant. German racial theorists even recognized gypsies as Aryans, yet they were persecuted.

    Again, you don’t even know anything about Nazis besides what you’ve seen in Hollywood movies and Allied propaganda.

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    • Replies: @neutral
    Sure, the views of all the people that lived during those times are completely irrelevant... Perhaps you should ask why Gypsies were persecuted if they were considered Aryans, it probably has to do with the fact that they were NOT actually considered to be Aryans. And you should simply stop bothering insulting my intelligence by trying to argue that Gypsies were seen as Aryan by anyone , you are in the same league of people arguing that ancient Egyptians looked like West Africans.

    Oh, and don't forget the jews, no doubt you are now going to claim to know of some writing by a German who claims they are Aryan as well.

    , @Daniel Chieh
    Didn't Himmler send exepeditions into Tibet to look for the original Aryans and their presumed origin? He took this quite seriously.
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  109. @Jaakko Raipala

    Do you seriously believe that the likes of Goebbels or Himmler would have happily accepted their daughters marrying some swarthy looking modern day Iranian
     
    Completely irrelevant. German racial theorists even recognized gypsies as Aryans, yet they were persecuted.

    Again, you don't even know anything about Nazis besides what you've seen in Hollywood movies and Allied propaganda.

    Sure, the views of all the people that lived during those times are completely irrelevant… Perhaps you should ask why Gypsies were persecuted if they were considered Aryans, it probably has to do with the fact that they were NOT actually considered to be Aryans. And you should simply stop bothering insulting my intelligence by trying to argue that Gypsies were seen as Aryan by anyone , you are in the same league of people arguing that ancient Egyptians looked like West Africans.

    Oh, and don’t forget the jews, no doubt you are now going to claim to know of some writing by a German who claims they are Aryan as well.

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    • Replies: @Jaakko Raipala

    Sure, the views of all the people that lived during those times are completely irrelevant… Perhaps you should ask why Gypsies were persecuted if they were considered Aryans,
     
    Duh. That's because the Nazis were not obsessed with "Aryans" the way you imagine them to be. One proof of this is that groups that were considered Aryans by their racial scientists could still be outside of the acceptable races.

    For example, here are the infamous Nuremberg racial citizenship laws of 1935:

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ab/Blutschutzgesetz_v.15.9.1935_-_RGBl_I_1146gesamt.jpg

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuremberg_Laws#/media/File:Blutschutzgesetz_v.15.9.1935_-_RGBl_I_1147.jpg

    They talk all about protecting the purity of German blood and they never even mention Aryans. Here's a visualization of the classifications:

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7d/Nuremberg_laws.jpg

    Deutschblütiger = German-blooded. Mischling = "mixed". They were German nationalists who were mainly concerned with the question of who was sufficiently German by blood and "Aryan" was not even an important enough concept to get a mention in the most infamous racial purity law of all time.

    Again, all you know about Nazis is from Allied propaganda where the Nazi regime was presented as a caricature where everyone was constantly obsessed with "Aryan this Aryan that Aryan Aryan Aryan". Sure, Heinrich Himmler was personally obsessed with ancient Aryans and trying to prove that they were some kind of ancient Germans racially, but his personal bizarre obsessions weren't German policies even if Allied propaganda wants to equate them.
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  110. @neutral
    Sure, the views of all the people that lived during those times are completely irrelevant... Perhaps you should ask why Gypsies were persecuted if they were considered Aryans, it probably has to do with the fact that they were NOT actually considered to be Aryans. And you should simply stop bothering insulting my intelligence by trying to argue that Gypsies were seen as Aryan by anyone , you are in the same league of people arguing that ancient Egyptians looked like West Africans.

    Oh, and don't forget the jews, no doubt you are now going to claim to know of some writing by a German who claims they are Aryan as well.

    Sure, the views of all the people that lived during those times are completely irrelevant… Perhaps you should ask why Gypsies were persecuted if they were considered Aryans,

    Duh. That’s because the Nazis were not obsessed with “Aryans” the way you imagine them to be. One proof of this is that groups that were considered Aryans by their racial scientists could still be outside of the acceptable races.

    For example, here are the infamous Nuremberg racial citizenship laws of 1935:

    They talk all about protecting the purity of German blood and they never even mention Aryans. Here’s a visualization of the classifications:

    Deutschblütiger = German-blooded. Mischling = “mixed”. They were German nationalists who were mainly concerned with the question of who was sufficiently German by blood and “Aryan” was not even an important enough concept to get a mention in the most infamous racial purity law of all time.

    Again, all you know about Nazis is from Allied propaganda where the Nazi regime was presented as a caricature where everyone was constantly obsessed with “Aryan this Aryan that Aryan Aryan Aryan”. Sure, Heinrich Himmler was personally obsessed with ancient Aryans and trying to prove that they were some kind of ancient Germans racially, but his personal bizarre obsessions weren’t German policies even if Allied propaganda wants to equate them.

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    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    I think the April 1933 laws used Aryan for what was acceptable.

    Göring told a joke: “What is it that everyone wants to be with an i, but no one without? - Aryan.” (Arisch in German, without i it’s Arsch, meaning arse/ass.)
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  111. @Greasy William
    I was waiting for an OT thread to ask these questions. These questions are for the whole board but I'm particularly interested in Anatoly's response so I hope he answers.

    Question: In exchange for 10 billion USD tax free would you be willing to:

    A) Become a vegan
    B) Exchange faces with the ugliest guy in your high school graduating class
    C) Give up 6 inches off your height (I don't know what that is in metric units. This is America, speak English.)
    D) Give up alcohol (this is an easy one for Talha).
    E) Give up one of your pinky toes (keep in mind this would prevent you from walking normally)
    F) Become gay
    G) Give up the internet

    Here are my answers:

    A) No.
    B) This is a really tough one. That dude was hideous. I'm gonna say no but not sure that I would actually be able to turn down all that money.
    C) Yes. Hell yes.
    D) I don't drink, but I do have two cans of lemonade a day. I would give that up.
    E) Yes. Fuck, I would give up an entire foot.
    F) No.
    G) No.

    A, D, E, G

    A. Vegetarian would be no sacrifice, vegan would be quite a bit harder but probably doable.

    D. A bunch of teetotalers here (you, G_R, Trump for that matter). A sacrifice, but doable.

    E. It seems you’ve considerably exaggerated the sacrifice involved:

    FYI: Do I Really Need My Pinky Toe?

    Walking, running and skipping with just four toes may be easier than you think.

    “If you’re born without a pinky toe or have an accident and it’s removed, you can completely do everything you wanted to do,” Dr. Anne Holly Johnson, instructor in orthopaedic surgery at Harvard Medical School, says.

    https://www.popsci.com/science/article/2013-05/fyi-do-i-really-need-my-pinky-toe

    G. Give up the Internet? It’s great to be in contact with all you guys, of course, but not at that price.

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  112. @Jaakko Raipala

    Do you seriously believe that the likes of Goebbels or Himmler would have happily accepted their daughters marrying some swarthy looking modern day Iranian
     
    Completely irrelevant. German racial theorists even recognized gypsies as Aryans, yet they were persecuted.

    Again, you don't even know anything about Nazis besides what you've seen in Hollywood movies and Allied propaganda.

    Didn’t Himmler send exepeditions into Tibet to look for the original Aryans and their presumed origin? He took this quite seriously.

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    • Replies: @Jaakko Raipala
    There was a proposed idea that the ancient Aryans could have evolved into a super intelligent and strong race in the harshest region in the world and then spread around the world to become shadows of their former selves by mixing with all sorts of people. I don't think they found evidence...

    Himmler sponsored a lot of expeditions that mixed competent botanists, linguists and the like with crazy occultists who were just making stuff up. For example, Himmler hired this guy to do work expeditions in the Soviet Union:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yrj%C3%B6_von_Gr%C3%B6nhagen

    I read his book (which unfortunately only exists in Finnish) which details his life as a living /pol/ meme in Nazi Germany creating blonde hair prevalence charts and trying to prove that Finns are related to Aryans (and not Mongols). "Aryan" indeed did not mean "blonde" or "Nordic" in SS Ahnenerbe as blonde and Nordic looking Finns were not considered Aryans but swarthy Iranians and gypsies were.

    That book has some weird shit. Himmler wanted his scientists to work with characters like Karl Maria Wiligut who believed the pagan magic being uncovered could be actually used to win wars and von Grönhagen got stuck having to either perform naked pagan rites for his mystic circle or risk getting fired from the lucrative position for offending Himmler's spiritual adviser.
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  113. @Greasy William
    I was waiting for an OT thread to ask these questions. These questions are for the whole board but I'm particularly interested in Anatoly's response so I hope he answers.

    Question: In exchange for 10 billion USD tax free would you be willing to:

    A) Become a vegan
    B) Exchange faces with the ugliest guy in your high school graduating class
    C) Give up 6 inches off your height (I don't know what that is in metric units. This is America, speak English.)
    D) Give up alcohol (this is an easy one for Talha).
    E) Give up one of your pinky toes (keep in mind this would prevent you from walking normally)
    F) Become gay
    G) Give up the internet

    Here are my answers:

    A) No.
    B) This is a really tough one. That dude was hideous. I'm gonna say no but not sure that I would actually be able to turn down all that money.
    C) Yes. Hell yes.
    D) I don't drink, but I do have two cans of lemonade a day. I would give that up.
    E) Yes. Fuck, I would give up an entire foot.
    F) No.
    G) No.

    The problem is it’s totally unrealistic. No one is going to pay you that much to cut off your pinky toe or make you gay. Besides, how would it be controlled? We tend to think about things in terms of whether we’d be able to cheat. So I cannot fully answer, but maybe I’d accept all except F.

    Regarding F. Would it be possible to become celibate? How would it be controlled? Would some heterosexual contacts be accepted, like blowjobs? Would it be okay if I only had blowjobs from supermodels while not having any homosexual sex at all? Again, it’s unrealistic.

    Maybe I’d accept F if it meant I only was permitted to penetrate guys only and not women, but wouldn’t have to penetrate guys or allow them to penetrate me and some workarounds would be permissible. While maybe having children with artificial insemination.

    I could start a nationalist Facebook or Twitter or something with that money. It’s about saving our civilization, for which I’d need to sacrifice.

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  114. @Jaakko Raipala

    Sure, the views of all the people that lived during those times are completely irrelevant… Perhaps you should ask why Gypsies were persecuted if they were considered Aryans,
     
    Duh. That's because the Nazis were not obsessed with "Aryans" the way you imagine them to be. One proof of this is that groups that were considered Aryans by their racial scientists could still be outside of the acceptable races.

    For example, here are the infamous Nuremberg racial citizenship laws of 1935:

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ab/Blutschutzgesetz_v.15.9.1935_-_RGBl_I_1146gesamt.jpg

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuremberg_Laws#/media/File:Blutschutzgesetz_v.15.9.1935_-_RGBl_I_1147.jpg

    They talk all about protecting the purity of German blood and they never even mention Aryans. Here's a visualization of the classifications:

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7d/Nuremberg_laws.jpg

    Deutschblütiger = German-blooded. Mischling = "mixed". They were German nationalists who were mainly concerned with the question of who was sufficiently German by blood and "Aryan" was not even an important enough concept to get a mention in the most infamous racial purity law of all time.

    Again, all you know about Nazis is from Allied propaganda where the Nazi regime was presented as a caricature where everyone was constantly obsessed with "Aryan this Aryan that Aryan Aryan Aryan". Sure, Heinrich Himmler was personally obsessed with ancient Aryans and trying to prove that they were some kind of ancient Germans racially, but his personal bizarre obsessions weren't German policies even if Allied propaganda wants to equate them.

    I think the April 1933 laws used Aryan for what was acceptable.

    Göring told a joke: “What is it that everyone wants to be with an i, but no one without? – Aryan.” (Arisch in German, without i it’s Arsch, meaning arse/ass.)

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  115. @German_reader
    Aryans belong in Iran or somewhere else in Asia...it's a meaningless, made up term in a European context.

    Aryans belong in Iran or somewhere else in Asia…it’s a meaningless, made up term in a European context.

    Actually the only people who have consistently and continuously used the word Aryan (Arya in Sanskrit) and the symbol swastika (also a Sanskrit word) for thousands of years are the Brahmins of India.

    You are right that it is foreign and meaningless in Europe.

    Aryan = Nordic is a classic example of fake history and pseudo-science that was concocted by crackpot nordicists (Gobineau et al) in the 19th century.

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  116. Would you rape and then murder your four year old daughter or niece or nephew if it saved civilization?

    This is totally unrealistic. Only a schizophrenic or other mentally ill person could believe such a situation could even exist. It’s impossible even to think about it properly. We’re not evolved to think about such situations. In that it’s reminiscent of the trolley problem, which is also totally unrealistic and so we cannot think about the situation thus presented at all.

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    • Replies: @Greasy William

    Would you rape and then murder your four year old daughter or niece or nephew if it saved civilization?
     
    No.

    The problem is it’s totally unrealistic. No one is going to pay you that much to cut off your pinky toe or make you gay.
     
    Then we shall agree to differ. I find it overwhelmingly likely that everybody here will at some time in their life be presented with the offer for $10 billion in exchange for giving up their pinky toe or being gay.

    Maybe I’d accept F if it meant I only was permitted to penetrate guys only and not women, but wouldn’t have to penetrate guys or allow them to penetrate me and some workarounds would be permissible.
     
    That's absolutely the deal. If you don't want to get with dudes, you don't have to. It's just that from now on you will only be attracted to men, not to women and you will have a much better fashion sense and will become obsessed with working out. You will also lose interest in sports if you have any to begin with.

    Hell, you can even keep sleeping with women if you want to, it just won't do anything for you anymore.

    We tend to think about things in terms of whether we’d be able to cheat. So I cannot fully answer, but maybe I’d accept all except F.
     
    You can't cheat, no. If you try to eat an animal product you will be physically unable to do so. Same with alcohol. You also don't have to cut off your toe, it will just disappear and there will be no pain.


    The reason that I picked 10 billion is because it is enough to have whatever luxury you want plus never having to work again. I don't care about the cars, the mansions, the women (if it wasn't the gay one) or any of that stuff but I would love to just know that I never had to work. Working blows.

    I'm surprised nobody is interested in switching faces with the ugliest guy from their high school. For me it's a hard one cause that guy made Quasimodo look like David Beckham, but if it was just a typical fug guy it really isn't a big deal. With 10 billion women will be flocking to you know matter what you look like so you guys must be really vain.
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  117. @German_reader

    While Karlin for obvious reasons can do nothing but loathe Adolf Hitler and the Nazis for Generalplan Ost, I’m sure he would agree that a successful Generalplan Ost would’ve been very positive for Germans
     
    Nazi racial violence was hugely counter-productive for the German war effort...probably the only way Germany could have defeated the Soviet Union or forced a favorable negotiated settlement - at least after the failure to take Moscow in 1941 - would have been mass enlistment of Soviet peoples on the German side. Kind of hard to do that though when you deliberately starve to death millions of pows and make it more than clear that you intend to enslave or just murder the native population. This was a huge wasted opportunity. Even as it was, despite Hitler's opposition and German refusal to make any credible promises regarding some sort of future statehood or autonomy for Soviet peoples, an estimated 800 000 Russians (that is ethnic Russians, not members of peripheral peoples like Balts, Chechens, Crimean Tartars etc. who were even more enthusiastic) served in some form in German forces, and the Germans even found a suitable figurehead for a national Russian anti-Bolshevik movement in General Vlasov. Who knows what might have been possible if the goal hadn't been racially motivated mass killings to make room for Germanic settlers, but merely ending the communist system, some sort of economic influence and German hegemony over Eastern Europe? For the latter objective it might even have been useful to cultivate Jewish communities as allies since they often had some affinity for German culture and were in conflict with native nationalists. So Nazi racial policies were rather self-defeating.
    Genocide can "work" of course if you get away with it, like the Turks did, but if you fail it's probably going to make things much worse for you (and regarding Amerindians in North America, apart from some cases like California, can this really be described as "genocide"? My understanding is Amerindian populations in North America had probably always been smaller than in South America, and in any case were decimated on an almost unimaginable scale by European diseases already in the 16th/17th century, before they came into much contact with English settlers).

    No disagreement here. Obviously the Germans would’ve been well served to work with anti-Russian nationalities in the USSR (and anti-communists as well) while the war was on. The Germans were overconfident and were too cocksure of mopping things up in the summer of 1941. I assume overrunning France got their heads.

    My only point here is simple. Imagine if today Germany’s eastern border was the Ural Mountains or even the Pacific Ocean. And imagine further that there were 300 million Germans today. That was Hitler’s dream, and I find it hard to fault him for daring to dream.

    Karlin has his own alternate history in which a thoroughly modernized and united Russian superpower with 400 million East Slavs exists today. That too is a great dream.

    I want to make it clear that I am not anti-Russian, but there is obviously some fundamental antagonism between Germany and Russia simply owing to proximity. And being Germanic rather than Slavic obviously I tend to identify more with the Germans, though I do have a great deal of admiration for Russians.

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    • Replies: @Mitleser

    I want to make it clear that I am not anti-Russian, but there is obviously some fundamental antagonism between Germany and Russia simply owing to proximity.
     
    Proximity? They have not been neighbors since the late 1910s.
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  118. @Jaakko Raipala
    Ok, you're right, I got the death % confused with this other famine in my memory.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Famine_of_1695%E2%80%931697

    There was a political attempt to capitalize on this one, too, as the Russians spread the word of how (supposedly) shocked Tsar Peter had been while traveling through Estonia during the famine and the Great Northern War was preceded by Russian propaganda efforts painting Swedish aristocracy as negligent and hostile to peasants.

    The war didn't make Russia very popular, though...

    I didn’t realize that the Finnish population was so small in those days — only 300,000 or so after the famine.

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  119. @Pavlo
    Let us turn this around.

    The disappearance of Germans and Swedes such as yourself would a positive for eastern europe and the world in general.

    Unless you really feel that herd animal conformity and autism are the wealth of mankind.

    Let us turn this around.

    The disappearance of Germans and Swedes such as yourself would a positive for eastern europe and the world in general.

    Unless you really feel that herd animal conformity and autism are the wealth of mankind.

    The world in general? Certainly not. I doubt the commenters on this site need me to explain this.

    But Eastern Europe? Of course.

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  120. @Jaakko Raipala
    A counter-example are those Irish that were already discussed - their language died but it did not turn them into loyal Englishmen. Teaching your language to your declared enemies isn't necessarily a smart move.

    If the Germans had succeeded at killing off languages like Polish, Czech, Ukrainian etc it might have left a big part of Europe German speaking but it's no guarantee that those newly German speaking people would have identified with Germany. If it had failed at that then you would have resentful anti-German peoples with German language skills to ally with opponents of the German regime in Germany and to ally with whatever foreign enemies Germany still had.

    Ironically, if the English had simply left the Irish language alone, they would have eventually learned English anyway in the American age. Arriving at it through that route might have ended up with an English speaking Ireland that doesn't have an antagonistic attitude with England. Likewise, if Russia had become a world leading capitalist economy in 1917 it might have killed some neighbors like Baltic languages by now even if the hypothetical bourgeois liberal regime had tried to support local identities. Liberal capitalism has turned out to be a stronger force of cultural destruction than any totalitarianism.

    The English, for all their merits, never attempted true ethnocides on the celtic fringe. The closest they came was the suppression of various Scottish cultural tropes after the Battle of Culloden, and that lasted only a few decades.

    Irish Papists had various legal restrictions until the middle of the 19th century, but Irish Gaelic was never banned. And Britain was relatively late to establishing compulsory public schools (prisons for children), so Irish children weren’t forced to learn English at all for most of history.

    Britain’s failure to properly ethnocide the celts still causes Britain issues today. Look at Scottish nationalism for instance. Objectively it’s as ridiculous as Ukrainian or Canadian nationalism, and yet it’s a thing.

    Beyond that we’re simply talking tactics.

    You are Finnish and have some interesting things to say about Finland’s history–I read all your comments. If Sweden hadn’t succumbed to Russia then Finland would still be Swedish today. And ultimately Finland would have been ethnocided which would be to the advantage of both Sweden and Finland (note: not recommending such a policy today–Finland has proven itself and now English is what you should learn).

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    • Replies: @Jaakko Raipala

    You are Finnish and have some interesting things to say about Finland’s history–I read all your comments. If Sweden hadn’t succumbed to Russia then Finland would still be Swedish today. And ultimately Finland would have been ethnocided
     
    Not likely. Sweden did not have the means to do that without Finns just swapping loyalty to Russia.

    Sweden's hold in Finland was always based on cultivating a Finnish loyalist class. Finns were never subjugated in the sense of having the native Finnish landowning class dismantled. To have the kind of power to attack the Finnish language in the inland Sweden would have needed to conquer Finland in a way that would transfer control of the inland from Finnish landowners to Swedes and starting a war against Finns in the East would have just given Russia a perfect opportunity to step in.

    Finland was always the kind of a colony where a significant fraction of the native population benefited and was given various privileges. Of course that means Finns were a bitterly divided people and could never have effective unified nationalism. It's a very effective strategy to hold a territory and those Finns with privileges were extremely loyal to the Swedish King, generally more loyal than ethnic Swedes in Finland were.

    By the way, during the Russian period knowledge of Russian was spreading and welcomed by ethnic Finns since it was a great opportunity to get past Swedish attempts at control... until one day the Russians decided to make studying Russian obligatory. Then it became a matter of pride to refuse to speak Russian. If Russia hadn't tried to force russification, Finland might never have even become rebellious, might still be a part of Russia and, ironically enough, might be Russian speaking today.

    You seem to have this idea that it's easy for a state to just kill a language but most of the successful examples have been really tiny minority languages or changing a very closely related language so that it's effectively just standardizing a dialect. Most attempts to force a language change have been failures that led to loss of control in long quiet territories, ethnic minorities siding with enemies of the dominant ethnicity and so on.
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  121. @reiner Tor
    Would you rape and then murder your four year old daughter or niece or nephew if it saved civilization?

    This is totally unrealistic. Only a schizophrenic or other mentally ill person could believe such a situation could even exist. It’s impossible even to think about it properly. We’re not evolved to think about such situations. In that it’s reminiscent of the trolley problem, which is also totally unrealistic and so we cannot think about the situation thus presented at all.

    Would you rape and then murder your four year old daughter or niece or nephew if it saved civilization?

    No.

    The problem is it’s totally unrealistic. No one is going to pay you that much to cut off your pinky toe or make you gay.

    Then we shall agree to differ. I find it overwhelmingly likely that everybody here will at some time in their life be presented with the offer for $10 billion in exchange for giving up their pinky toe or being gay.

    Maybe I’d accept F if it meant I only was permitted to penetrate guys only and not women, but wouldn’t have to penetrate guys or allow them to penetrate me and some workarounds would be permissible.

    That’s absolutely the deal. If you don’t want to get with dudes, you don’t have to. It’s just that from now on you will only be attracted to men, not to women and you will have a much better fashion sense and will become obsessed with working out. You will also lose interest in sports if you have any to begin with.

    Hell, you can even keep sleeping with women if you want to, it just won’t do anything for you anymore.

    We tend to think about things in terms of whether we’d be able to cheat. So I cannot fully answer, but maybe I’d accept all except F.

    You can’t cheat, no. If you try to eat an animal product you will be physically unable to do so. Same with alcohol. You also don’t have to cut off your toe, it will just disappear and there will be no pain.

    The reason that I picked 10 billion is because it is enough to have whatever luxury you want plus never having to work again. I don’t care about the cars, the mansions, the women (if it wasn’t the gay one) or any of that stuff but I would love to just know that I never had to work. Working blows.

    I’m surprised nobody is interested in switching faces with the ugliest guy from their high school. For me it’s a hard one cause that guy made Quasimodo look like David Beckham, but if it was just a typical fug guy it really isn’t a big deal. With 10 billion women will be flocking to you know matter what you look like so you guys must be really vain.

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    • Replies: @Randal

    That’s absolutely the deal. If you don’t want to get with dudes, you don’t have to. It’s just that from now on you will only be attracted to men, not to women and you will have a much better fashion sense and will become obsessed with working out. You will also lose interest in sports if you have any to begin with.

    Hell, you can even keep sleeping with women if you want to, it just won’t do anything for you anymore.
     
    Well if that's all you mean by it then it's not a particularly big deal anyway. More an issue for my wife than for me, I'd say.

    Part of being married is regularly seeing people you are sexually attracted to and not shagging them even if the opportunity arises. I've managed that for most of my life already. What's the big deal?
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  122. @Thorfinnsson
    No disagreement here. Obviously the Germans would've been well served to work with anti-Russian nationalities in the USSR (and anti-communists as well) while the war was on. The Germans were overconfident and were too cocksure of mopping things up in the summer of 1941. I assume overrunning France got their heads.

    My only point here is simple. Imagine if today Germany's eastern border was the Ural Mountains or even the Pacific Ocean. And imagine further that there were 300 million Germans today. That was Hitler's dream, and I find it hard to fault him for daring to dream.

    Karlin has his own alternate history in which a thoroughly modernized and united Russian superpower with 400 million East Slavs exists today. That too is a great dream.

    I want to make it clear that I am not anti-Russian, but there is obviously some fundamental antagonism between Germany and Russia simply owing to proximity. And being Germanic rather than Slavic obviously I tend to identify more with the Germans, though I do have a great deal of admiration for Russians.

    I want to make it clear that I am not anti-Russian, but there is obviously some fundamental antagonism between Germany and Russia simply owing to proximity.

    Proximity? They have not been neighbors since the late 1910s.

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    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    They were neighbors as well from 1939-1945.

    Or perhaps 1994, which is when the Russians finally left Germany. And note--not BLAMING Russia here. Obviously the Soviet triumph over Germany was the greatest victory in Russian history, greater than even Yuri Gagarin or expelling Napoleon (and, ofc, my boy Karl XII).

    And prior to that, as you hint at, they were long neighbors--or rather the Kingdom of Prussia was.

    Germany and Russia historically have both expanded into the territories of lesser slavs (Russians being by far the greatest slavs) and frequently encountered and fought each other as a result.

    Today such a scenario is ridiculous (birth rates too low, returns to violence too small, Germans too cucked) but for the past millennium it has been a fact of life.

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  123. Enjoy your trip to Britain Anatoly. Meanwhile in Poland……….60 deaths from a couple of days of cold weather……..a catastrophic failure of the authorities to protect their people. 10? Acceptable. 20?-not great…but 60? Lays bare the myth of “subjugated” durinmg the Soviet times…..this thing NEVER happened to their population during the Soviet era when similar cold-snaps occured…pathetic. Instead of the pseudo-catholic pricks in their insitutions demolishing monuments to those brave ,courageous men from Russia who liberated and saved them from destruction 73 years….these idiots should do more planning to protect their population

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    • Agree: Greasy William
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  124. @Greasy William
    I was waiting for an OT thread to ask these questions. These questions are for the whole board but I'm particularly interested in Anatoly's response so I hope he answers.

    Question: In exchange for 10 billion USD tax free would you be willing to:

    A) Become a vegan
    B) Exchange faces with the ugliest guy in your high school graduating class
    C) Give up 6 inches off your height (I don't know what that is in metric units. This is America, speak English.)
    D) Give up alcohol (this is an easy one for Talha).
    E) Give up one of your pinky toes (keep in mind this would prevent you from walking normally)
    F) Become gay
    G) Give up the internet

    Here are my answers:

    A) No.
    B) This is a really tough one. That dude was hideous. I'm gonna say no but not sure that I would actually be able to turn down all that money.
    C) Yes. Hell yes.
    D) I don't drink, but I do have two cans of lemonade a day. I would give that up.
    E) Yes. Fuck, I would give up an entire foot.
    F) No.
    G) No.

    Part of the problem is that you are talking about an amount that brings real power, so the issue is rather complicated by questions of duty and sacrifice (maybe that’s intentional), as rT pointed out.

    Perhaps it would be interesting to compare answers to the same question with the amount set at, say, $10m. At that figure it brings personal comfort and security that is presently unavailable to the vast majority, but isn’t enough to really change society. [Median household wealth is around £104,000 per adult in the UK, but even for someone who already has much higher wealth than that it's probably largely tied up in their house value and an extra $10m is still likely to make a huge difference in lifestyle, quality of life and financial security. At the 99th percentile wealth per adult is about £1.4 million. ]

    Money isn’t a big issue for me at my stage in life – I’m not desperately short of it and the main concern is how much to leave to various offspring and how best to achieve that while legally avoiding as much as possibly of the inevitable government theft. But I certainly would find ways to spend or give away $10m if it appeared in my bank account, and very much enjoy doing so. So if that were the amount I might say yes to all except F, mostly because none of them seem like things I’d desperately miss once they were gone. (A – pretty miserable admittedly but probably bearable with some stoicism, B&C – mostly vanity issues which are less of a concern once you’re mature, D – not a problem as I’m solely a social drinker, E – not a pleasant prospect but I suspect as noted above it wouldn’t really have much long term impact, G – I can always find another hobby….I can stop any time.)

    But if you are talking about $10b I’d have to consider the issue of duty and sacrifice as well. The devil might well be in the details. It would be a serious dilemma.

    And then there’s always the old joke to worry about:

    Now We’re Just Haggling Over the Price

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  125. @Mitleser

    I want to make it clear that I am not anti-Russian, but there is obviously some fundamental antagonism between Germany and Russia simply owing to proximity.
     
    Proximity? They have not been neighbors since the late 1910s.

    They were neighbors as well from 1939-1945.

    Or perhaps 1994, which is when the Russians finally left Germany. And note–not BLAMING Russia here. Obviously the Soviet triumph over Germany was the greatest victory in Russian history, greater than even Yuri Gagarin or expelling Napoleon (and, ofc, my boy Karl XII).

    And prior to that, as you hint at, they were long neighbors–or rather the Kingdom of Prussia was.

    Germany and Russia historically have both expanded into the territories of lesser slavs (Russians being by far the greatest slavs) and frequently encountered and fought each other as a result.

    Today such a scenario is ridiculous (birth rates too low, returns to violence too small, Germans too cucked) but for the past millennium it has been a fact of life.

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    • Replies: @Mitleser

    They were neighbors as well from 1939-1945.
     
    Because Nazis insisted on owning Poland.

    Germany and Russia historically have both expanded into the territories of lesser slavs (Russians being by far the greatest slavs) and frequently encountered and fought each other as a result.
     
    Hardly, their primary enemies were their neighbors or themselves, not each other.
    Just compare how many wars Russians fought against Swedes or Turks and how many wars they fought against German states.

    Today such a scenario is ridiculous (birth rates too low, returns to violence too small, Germans too cucked) but for the past millennium it has been a fact of life.
     
    For most of the past millennium the area between Germany and Russia was dominated by Poles.
    That was a fact of life and Poland is still the most important nation in that area.
    , @AP

    Obviously the Soviet triumph over Germany was the greatest victory in Russian history
     
    Letting a far smaller nation occupy much of your territory and losing 20+ million people to this small nation is not really a "greatest victory." It's certainly a victory, and it's understandable why Russians would build it up and glorify themselves (the truth of all those lives needlessly wasted due to the leadership's and system's incompetence is not easy), but objectively speaking it represents barely recovering from some major bungling, surviving due to the suicidal opponent making some mistakes.
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  126. @iffen
    It's kind of hard to emigrate and take a few hundred acres of farmland with you, even if it is some of the best in the world.

    RE: Changed attitudes toward eradication of whites in SA.

    If the extremely slow motion process that has been in place for some years now, coupled with the example of Zimbabwe didn't register, why exactly would anyone expect a change in attitudes?

    They do emigrate, though. A country that actively welcomed them with first world standards would probably get a lot of them.

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  127. @Greasy William
    I was waiting for an OT thread to ask these questions. These questions are for the whole board but I'm particularly interested in Anatoly's response so I hope he answers.

    Question: In exchange for 10 billion USD tax free would you be willing to:

    A) Become a vegan
    B) Exchange faces with the ugliest guy in your high school graduating class
    C) Give up 6 inches off your height (I don't know what that is in metric units. This is America, speak English.)
    D) Give up alcohol (this is an easy one for Talha).
    E) Give up one of your pinky toes (keep in mind this would prevent you from walking normally)
    F) Become gay
    G) Give up the internet

    Here are my answers:

    A) No.
    B) This is a really tough one. That dude was hideous. I'm gonna say no but not sure that I would actually be able to turn down all that money.
    C) Yes. Hell yes.
    D) I don't drink, but I do have two cans of lemonade a day. I would give that up.
    E) Yes. Fuck, I would give up an entire foot.
    F) No.
    G) No.

    D) I don’t really drink(2 beers a year do not count). Giving it up would be easy.

    I think I found his answers here.

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  128. @Thorfinnsson
    They were neighbors as well from 1939-1945.

    Or perhaps 1994, which is when the Russians finally left Germany. And note--not BLAMING Russia here. Obviously the Soviet triumph over Germany was the greatest victory in Russian history, greater than even Yuri Gagarin or expelling Napoleon (and, ofc, my boy Karl XII).

    And prior to that, as you hint at, they were long neighbors--or rather the Kingdom of Prussia was.

    Germany and Russia historically have both expanded into the territories of lesser slavs (Russians being by far the greatest slavs) and frequently encountered and fought each other as a result.

    Today such a scenario is ridiculous (birth rates too low, returns to violence too small, Germans too cucked) but for the past millennium it has been a fact of life.

    They were neighbors as well from 1939-1945.

    Because Nazis insisted on owning Poland.

    Germany and Russia historically have both expanded into the territories of lesser slavs (Russians being by far the greatest slavs) and frequently encountered and fought each other as a result.

    Hardly, their primary enemies were their neighbors or themselves, not each other.
    Just compare how many wars Russians fought against Swedes or Turks and how many wars they fought against German states.

    Today such a scenario is ridiculous (birth rates too low, returns to violence too small, Germans too cucked) but for the past millennium it has been a fact of life.

    For most of the past millennium the area between Germany and Russia was dominated by Poles.
    That was a fact of life and Poland is still the most important nation in that area.

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    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson


    Because Nazis insisted on owning Poland.
     
    And Stalin agreed with them.

    And that's fine honestly, I don't really see what the point of Poland is.

    What has Poland ever given the world?

    Germany and Russia are clearly more important than Poland so if they want to destroy it I am totally okay with that.


    Hardly, their primary enemies were their neighbors or themselves, not each other.
    Just compare how many wars Russians fought against Swedes or Turks and how many wars they fought against German states.
     
    A Russian should answer this question, but that said what about the film about Alexander Nevsky?

    Or take a look at this music video from the Russian hard rock band Alisa: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFIe68R8-tQ

    It certainly seems like Russians are very proud that they defeated Germany in what was frankly the greatest contest of all time.


    For most of the past millennium the area between Germany and Russia was dominated by Poles.
    That was a fact of life and Poland is still the most important nation in that area.
     
    Poland is a joke. The Swedes crushed them in the 17th century (the Deluge) and then the hapless Poles went on to suffer four partitions by their more powerful neighbors.
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  129. @Greasy William

    Would you rape and then murder your four year old daughter or niece or nephew if it saved civilization?
     
    No.

    The problem is it’s totally unrealistic. No one is going to pay you that much to cut off your pinky toe or make you gay.
     
    Then we shall agree to differ. I find it overwhelmingly likely that everybody here will at some time in their life be presented with the offer for $10 billion in exchange for giving up their pinky toe or being gay.

    Maybe I’d accept F if it meant I only was permitted to penetrate guys only and not women, but wouldn’t have to penetrate guys or allow them to penetrate me and some workarounds would be permissible.
     
    That's absolutely the deal. If you don't want to get with dudes, you don't have to. It's just that from now on you will only be attracted to men, not to women and you will have a much better fashion sense and will become obsessed with working out. You will also lose interest in sports if you have any to begin with.

    Hell, you can even keep sleeping with women if you want to, it just won't do anything for you anymore.

    We tend to think about things in terms of whether we’d be able to cheat. So I cannot fully answer, but maybe I’d accept all except F.
     
    You can't cheat, no. If you try to eat an animal product you will be physically unable to do so. Same with alcohol. You also don't have to cut off your toe, it will just disappear and there will be no pain.


    The reason that I picked 10 billion is because it is enough to have whatever luxury you want plus never having to work again. I don't care about the cars, the mansions, the women (if it wasn't the gay one) or any of that stuff but I would love to just know that I never had to work. Working blows.

    I'm surprised nobody is interested in switching faces with the ugliest guy from their high school. For me it's a hard one cause that guy made Quasimodo look like David Beckham, but if it was just a typical fug guy it really isn't a big deal. With 10 billion women will be flocking to you know matter what you look like so you guys must be really vain.

    That’s absolutely the deal. If you don’t want to get with dudes, you don’t have to. It’s just that from now on you will only be attracted to men, not to women and you will have a much better fashion sense and will become obsessed with working out. You will also lose interest in sports if you have any to begin with.

    Hell, you can even keep sleeping with women if you want to, it just won’t do anything for you anymore.

    Well if that’s all you mean by it then it’s not a particularly big deal anyway. More an issue for my wife than for me, I’d say.

    Part of being married is regularly seeing people you are sexually attracted to and not shagging them even if the opportunity arises. I’ve managed that for most of my life already. What’s the big deal?

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  130. What’s the big deal?

    You would know that you were gay and hence not a real man. I couldn’t live with it.

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  131. @neutral
    I never said that only Aryans are European, but I very explicitly do claim that Jews, Arabs, Turks, Iranians, Armenians, etc are not European and not white. A lot of Europeans did support the Third Reich, Hungary, Romania and Italy attacked the USSR with Germany. A lot of other territories such as France, Greece, Belgium were better off being than they are now with regards to the survival of their nations.

    You’re right that Sephardic Jews are not white or European genetically.

    Ashkenazi “Jews”, however, are heavily Italian on a widespread basis. This study found that on the maternal side, so-called Ashkenazi Jews are on average EIGHTY PERCENT Italian. That means an average 40% italian overall.

    https://geneticliteracyproject.org/2013/10/08/ashkenazi-jewish-women-descended-mostly-from-italian-converts-new-study-asserts

    Only Ashkenazi jews’ paternal lineage was found to be mostly middle eastern / near eastern.

    Finally, it appears that most Ashkenazi Jews also have Germanic or Slavic genes. (I will look for some recent genetic study on this). They didn’t merely adopt fake German, Polish, Ukrainians, and Russian names during those centuries living among white European Gentiles outside Italy.

    So the Ashkenazi “Jew” is typically half or a bit more than half white european, i.e. about half or a bit less than half Middle/Near Eastern genetically.

    This means that any alleged or implied innate superiority of Ashkenazi “Jews” — or less drastically, the genetic component of the persistent Jewish pattern of achievement and advantage — is attributable in substantial part to their white European genes.

    First, Ashkenazi “Jews”, you’re welcome ;)

    Second, whassup my bruthas and sistas (wish more of you thought of us white European people in light of our kinship).

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  132. You would know that you were gay and hence not a real man. I couldn’t live with it.

    Ok. I think maybe you are a little insecure.

    For me that wouldn’t be a concern because the problem with “being gay” (in the sexual attraction sense rather than the generally derogatory sense) is doing homosexual stuff, not some kind of identity related theoretical issue.

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  133. @Mitleser

    They were neighbors as well from 1939-1945.
     
    Because Nazis insisted on owning Poland.

    Germany and Russia historically have both expanded into the territories of lesser slavs (Russians being by far the greatest slavs) and frequently encountered and fought each other as a result.
     
    Hardly, their primary enemies were their neighbors or themselves, not each other.
    Just compare how many wars Russians fought against Swedes or Turks and how many wars they fought against German states.

    Today such a scenario is ridiculous (birth rates too low, returns to violence too small, Germans too cucked) but for the past millennium it has been a fact of life.
     
    For most of the past millennium the area between Germany and Russia was dominated by Poles.
    That was a fact of life and Poland is still the most important nation in that area.

    Because Nazis insisted on owning Poland.

    And Stalin agreed with them.

    And that’s fine honestly, I don’t really see what the point of Poland is.

    What has Poland ever given the world?

    Germany and Russia are clearly more important than Poland so if they want to destroy it I am totally okay with that.

    Hardly, their primary enemies were their neighbors or themselves, not each other.
    Just compare how many wars Russians fought against Swedes or Turks and how many wars they fought against German states.

    A Russian should answer this question, but that said what about the film about Alexander Nevsky?

    Or take a look at this music video from the Russian hard rock band Alisa:

    It certainly seems like Russians are very proud that they defeated Germany in what was frankly the greatest contest of all time.

    For most of the past millennium the area between Germany and Russia was dominated by Poles.
    That was a fact of life and Poland is still the most important nation in that area.

    Poland is a joke. The Swedes crushed them in the 17th century (the Deluge) and then the hapless Poles went on to suffer four partitions by their more powerful neighbors.

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  134. @Polish Perspective

    They might be if there’s real violence, with blacks hacking up whites in front of tv cameras or something of the sort.
     
    I guess I am far more cynical than you, then. If that were to happen, I fully expect the MSM to go into a frenzy trying to justify the murders. It won't be an open "they deserved it". It will be "whites created a systematic oppression of blacks through loot and plunder for centuries. You may now condemn these base instincts, but what are they if not the spasms of retribution from a much weaker party trampled upon with your silent approval?" In other words: they deserved it, but with more rhetorical flourish.

    At this stage, it is impossible to be in any major Western MSM position and be openly pro-white interests. The best reporter on South Africa in the West is a Chinese reporter at Sydney Morning Herald, who Steve Sailer is also quoting in his blogpost about it. There used to be a few voices in the UK press in particular(Telegraph was a notable example), but that is fading now. My guess is that it was reporters who had South African family members (either who lived there or those who married in). Something like 800K white South Africans left for the UK from the late 80s up until the early 2000s IIRC.

    Given the extreme hatred shown towards Western whites in your own countries from your own media, I would be astonished if white South Africans were shown any different courtesy.

    IN 2000′S ROBERT MUGABE OF ZIMBABWE HAS CONFISCATED LANDS OF WHITE FARMERS AND WHEN HE WAS REMOVED FROM PRESIDENCY LAST YEAR .ONE OF THE FIRST ACTS OF NEW GOVERNENT IS TO RESTORE THOSE LANDS TO WHITE FARMERS.IN BETWEEN THEESE EVENTS ,ZIMBABWE SUFFERRED HUGE INFLATION AND OTHER ECONOMIC EFFECTS.I THINK WHITE PEOPLE HAVE LOT OF POWER

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  135. AP says:
    @Thorfinnsson
    The real problem is the cuck take that genocide is necessarily bad.

    The United States owes much of its superiority over Latin America to the successful genocide of the red Indians.

    While Karlin for obvious reasons can do nothing but loathe Adolf Hitler and the Nazis for Generalplan Ost, I'm sure he would agree that a successful Generalplan Ost would've been very positive for Germans (the world would be impoverished by the loss of Russians of course, but all the other ethnic groups between Germany and Russia strike me as irrelevant).

    And this exists in lesser forms as well. Quite clearly the ethnocide of the Ukraine (not physical annihilation, just elimination of the Ukrainian dialect and the absurd idea that an independent Ukrainian culture and nation exist or should exist) would be beneficial for everyone--even Ukrainians.

    Such ethnocides were successfully implemented in most Western European nations (ever heard of Low German or Occitan?), and presently China is currently conducting many such ethnocides with useless regional languages and identities.

    absurd idea that an independent Ukrainian culture and nation exist or should exist

    Out of curiosity – what do you think of the Norwegian, Danish, and Icelandic cultures or nations? Should they all be combined into Swedish? Or should Norwegian and Icelalandic be eliminated and assimilated with Danish? Historically, Norway, Iceland, and Denmark spent more time within one state than did Ukraine and Russia. Norwegian, Swedish, and Danish are more closely related to each other than Ukrainian is to Russian.

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    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    I support a Nordic federation with each Nordic nation preserving its identity and language within the federation.

    We only spent a bit more than one century in the same state, don't b.s. And other than Iceland (too small) every Nordic country has produced something of significance.

    The Ukraine on the other hand is a complete joke. I cannot take people seriously who advocate for its existence.

    Why would you want to be some mediocre loser country instead of part of a great power?
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  136. AP says:
    @Thorfinnsson
    They were neighbors as well from 1939-1945.

    Or perhaps 1994, which is when the Russians finally left Germany. And note--not BLAMING Russia here. Obviously the Soviet triumph over Germany was the greatest victory in Russian history, greater than even Yuri Gagarin or expelling Napoleon (and, ofc, my boy Karl XII).

    And prior to that, as you hint at, they were long neighbors--or rather the Kingdom of Prussia was.

    Germany and Russia historically have both expanded into the territories of lesser slavs (Russians being by far the greatest slavs) and frequently encountered and fought each other as a result.

    Today such a scenario is ridiculous (birth rates too low, returns to violence too small, Germans too cucked) but for the past millennium it has been a fact of life.

    Obviously the Soviet triumph over Germany was the greatest victory in Russian history

    Letting a far smaller nation occupy much of your territory and losing 20+ million people to this small nation is not really a “greatest victory.” It’s certainly a victory, and it’s understandable why Russians would build it up and glorify themselves (the truth of all those lives needlessly wasted due to the leadership’s and system’s incompetence is not easy), but objectively speaking it represents barely recovering from some major bungling, surviving due to the suicidal opponent making some mistakes.

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    • Replies: @melanf

    Letting a far smaller nation
     
    That's not so. 90 million Germans, compared to 90 million Russians. Of course in the Soviet Union living not only Russian, but the population of "great" Germany and its satellites and colonies surpassed the population of the USSR.
    However ruled not the population but economy:industry of Germany (only Germany) by volume was superior to the Soviet industry in 1.5 times. Realistically (given technical level) superiority was much more

    the truth of all those lives needlessly wasted due to the leadership’s and system’s incompetence
     
    surprisingly idiotic statement
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  137. Anon • Disclaimer says:
    @Talha
    From the transhumanist article:
    "In a small, white warehouse two hours north of Moscow are 56 dead people who hope to live again. Their bodies are upside down, their blood fully drained from their arteries, as they wait, immersed in negative 196-degree Celsius liquid nitrogen for the next 100 years."

    Amazing what things various people have come up with to deal with their dead. The Fore people in Paupa New Gineau invite relatives over and eat their dead - they save the brains for the womenfolk and children.

    Well, all I can say is good luck fellows - hope they can find a way to bring you back otherwise that will have been money not well spent. Not holding my breath though, because there's no cure for that either.

    Also, what happens if the 100 years runs out? Do they pull the plug? Cause that would seriously suck for these guys if it's discovered like three months after.

    Well, all I can say is good luck fellows – hope they can find a way to bring you back otherwise that will have been money not well spent.

    They’d be brought back most as zombies with no personality. The high-level brain structures have already deteriorated by the point when death is officially pronounced. Freezing a person whose “self” is still intact is legally considered murder, and no one wants to go to jail, so (unlikely) zombies-to-be is all we get. I wonder if countries where euthanasia is legal could make freezing alive one of the accepted methods along with the usual poisoning. Now that would be at least a little promising for those who hope to be brought back as the same continuous person.

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  138. @AP

    absurd idea that an independent Ukrainian culture and nation exist or should exist
     
    Out of curiosity - what do you think of the Norwegian, Danish, and Icelandic cultures or nations? Should they all be combined into Swedish? Or should Norwegian and Icelalandic be eliminated and assimilated with Danish? Historically, Norway, Iceland, and Denmark spent more time within one state than did Ukraine and Russia. Norwegian, Swedish, and Danish are more closely related to each other than Ukrainian is to Russian.

    I support a Nordic federation with each Nordic nation preserving its identity and language within the federation.

    We only spent a bit more than one century in the same state, don’t b.s. And other than Iceland (too small) every Nordic country has produced something of significance.

    The Ukraine on the other hand is a complete joke. I cannot take people seriously who advocate for its existence.

    Why would you want to be some mediocre loser country instead of part of a great power?

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    • Replies: @Polish Perspective
    So in this thread you have:

    - called for the abolition of the Baltic states
    - called for the abolition of Canada
    - called for the abolition of Poland
    - called for the abolition of Austria

    The more you post, the more mentally unstable you come across.


    I support a Nordic federation
     
    Don't you live in the US? These autist LARPers are hilarious.
    , @AP

    We only spent a bit more than one century in the same state, don’t b.s.
     
    Are the schools in your country that bad?

    Norway was united to Denmark from around 1300 until 1814, when it was handed over to Sweden. That's longer than any part of Ukraine was united to Russia.

    And Iceland was part of Denmark or Norway from 1260 until 1944.

    Why would you want to be some mediocre loser country instead of part of a great power
     
    So when will Sweden apply to become part of Russia, or the USA?
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  139. own genocide museum

    the post-modern religion of genocidianity needs to be dismatled, not forked, or it’s 1066 all over again. (the bronze age stuff needs to be dismantled, for that matter, too.)

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    1054, I meant.
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  140. @AP

    Obviously the Soviet triumph over Germany was the greatest victory in Russian history
     
    Letting a far smaller nation occupy much of your territory and losing 20+ million people to this small nation is not really a "greatest victory." It's certainly a victory, and it's understandable why Russians would build it up and glorify themselves (the truth of all those lives needlessly wasted due to the leadership's and system's incompetence is not easy), but objectively speaking it represents barely recovering from some major bungling, surviving due to the suicidal opponent making some mistakes.

    Letting a far smaller nation

    That’s not so. 90 million Germans, compared to 90 million Russians. Of course in the Soviet Union living not only Russian, but the population of “great” Germany and its satellites and colonies surpassed the population of the USSR.
    However ruled not the population but economy:industry of Germany (only Germany) by volume was superior to the Soviet industry in 1.5 times. Realistically (given technical level) superiority was much more

    the truth of all those lives needlessly wasted due to the leadership’s and system’s incompetence

    surprisingly idiotic statement

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    • Replies: @AP

    That’s not so. 90 million Germans, compared to 90 million Russians.
     
    USSR had a population of 170 million in 1939 (I am not including the Balts and western Ukrainians, who were newly occupied and resistant).

    Germany (including Austria and Sudetenland) had a population of 79 million in 1939.

    Of course in the Soviet Union living not only Russian, but the population of “great” Germany and its satellites and colonies surpassed the population of the USSR.
     
    There was active and bloody resistance to German rule so these regions can be considered a minus rather than plus. And also Germany was in a fight with Britain and later the USA.

    So in addition to having to conquer and occupy all of Europe, and still fighting the Brits, Germany invaded the USSR who had over twice the population, and managed to capture much of the country and bled 20+ million Soviets.

    Epic poor performance by the Soviet regime. Really pathetic.
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  141. @AP

    What difference does it make it if it is ‘armed police’, or landlord with his posse? And, yes they used to take the grain from starving peasants.
     
    Do you have evidence of Lord's posses taking food from starving peasants?

    I looked at some European famines and this stuff wasn't mentioned. For example:

    https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grande_famine_de_1693-1694

    Government stopped wheat exports to try to relieve it.

    No mention of peasants starving to death because Lords took all the food during the Finnish famine:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Famine_of_1695%E2%80%931697

    It was caused by catastrophic harvest.

    Czech famines:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Famines_in_Czech_lands

    Caused by grain disease.

    The Soviet famine was not caused by grain disease or catastrophic harvest. It was purely mad-made - caused by confiscating grain and food, and exporting enough grain that had been stolen from the starving peasants, to feed 5 million people.

    Do you have evidence of Lord’s posses taking food from starving peasants?

    You seem to get all your information from Wikipedia. That’s not a good source. One example I can give you is 1830′s famine in eastern Hungary/Slovakia/Sub-Carpathian Ukraine. Heavy rains and poor harvests caused grain shortage, prices sky-rocketed, landlords with gendarmes roamed villages taking all food they could get their hands on. People starved, landlords sold to intermediaries (mostly Jewish) and made a killing. Some peasants retaliated by burning down a few manors – and again gendarmes suppressed it. This was one of the triggers for the 1848 abolishing of feudal responsibilities in Hungary.

    Similar acts are well documented in the late 18th century France, 30-year war in Germany, in the Balkans by Ottomans etc… Wikipedia is not in the business of describing the feudal era too critically (it lasted legally until late 19th century in most of Europe). The focus of Wiki is on the 20th century atrocities, they seldom ask why were most people so pissed off that they went bloody mad about any landlords, intermediaries, etc…

    There is also the silly modern Western mentality of pretending that somehow we are all descendants of knights and lords, that it was all about chivalry and sword fights. It wasn’t, the atrocities and the revenge in the 2oth century didn’t happen in a vacuum.

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    • Replies: @AP

    Heavy rains and poor harvests caused grain shortage, prices sky-rocketed, landlords with gendarmes roamed villages taking all food they could get their hands on.
     
    So you admit that this famine wasn't caused by the government taking grain from peasants, but by a grain shortage caused not by the government but by poor harvest, flooding, etc. And about 40,000 died at that time.

    You are comparing this to government setting too-high grain quotas, taking grain from the peasants themselves during a naturally non-famine year, on a scale that resulted in about 3 million deaths in Ukraine and a similar number elsewhere in the USSR..
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  142. @German_reader

    While Karlin for obvious reasons can do nothing but loathe Adolf Hitler and the Nazis for Generalplan Ost, I’m sure he would agree that a successful Generalplan Ost would’ve been very positive for Germans
     
    Nazi racial violence was hugely counter-productive for the German war effort...probably the only way Germany could have defeated the Soviet Union or forced a favorable negotiated settlement - at least after the failure to take Moscow in 1941 - would have been mass enlistment of Soviet peoples on the German side. Kind of hard to do that though when you deliberately starve to death millions of pows and make it more than clear that you intend to enslave or just murder the native population. This was a huge wasted opportunity. Even as it was, despite Hitler's opposition and German refusal to make any credible promises regarding some sort of future statehood or autonomy for Soviet peoples, an estimated 800 000 Russians (that is ethnic Russians, not members of peripheral peoples like Balts, Chechens, Crimean Tartars etc. who were even more enthusiastic) served in some form in German forces, and the Germans even found a suitable figurehead for a national Russian anti-Bolshevik movement in General Vlasov. Who knows what might have been possible if the goal hadn't been racially motivated mass killings to make room for Germanic settlers, but merely ending the communist system, some sort of economic influence and German hegemony over Eastern Europe? For the latter objective it might even have been useful to cultivate Jewish communities as allies since they often had some affinity for German culture and were in conflict with native nationalists. So Nazi racial policies were rather self-defeating.
    Genocide can "work" of course if you get away with it, like the Turks did, but if you fail it's probably going to make things much worse for you (and regarding Amerindians in North America, apart from some cases like California, can this really be described as "genocide"? My understanding is Amerindian populations in North America had probably always been smaller than in South America, and in any case were decimated on an almost unimaginable scale by European diseases already in the 16th/17th century, before they came into much contact with English settlers).

    an estimated 800 000 Russians (that is ethnic Russians, not members of peripheral peoples like Balts, Chechens, Crimean Tartars etc. who were even more enthusiastic) served in some form in German forces

    in some form – as slaves. it’s a little known fact, but Soviet troops (against orders of the military command) in similar way use the German prisoners, who as a result served in the red army as Jivi.

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  143. @reiner Tor
    You don’t understand the details and so have a false picture both of earlier famines and of the Bolshevik manufactured famines.

    That is one of the more vacuous responses I have seen here.

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    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    Properly speaking, this was not a real response at all. Only an observation.

    For example the medieval and early modern famines were always caused by bad weather. The Soviet famines were not always caused by bad weather, for example in 1933 there was no drought.

    Another difference is that in the 1930s (but I think not in the 1920s) the Soviets actively prevented the population from fleeing the famine areas. This was never the case in the earlier famines, because you only do that if your goal is basically to kill them. The Soviet authorities locked up begging children and either transported them back to the countryside to die or starved them to death themselves.

    The Soviet leadership in the 1920s openly talked about how beneficial the famine was, because it ended the guerrilla uprising of the peasants, so they actively started removing the food from the villages. As opposed to the landlords who at worst only demanded what was owed to them. The Soviet leadership also raised the grain requisitioning quota in 1932.

    The previous big famine killed only 0.5 million people, which is an order of magnitude less than either of the two big Soviet famines. The landlords often forgave what was owed them by the tenants (they had an interest in keeping them alive... but also some noblesse oblige), though not all of them. (One landlord who didn’t forgive the debts and demanded the full fee from the tenants was a certain Vladimir Ilyich Ulyanov.) There is no reason to suppose it was otherwise in earlier times, like in the Middle Ages. But of course landlords wouldn’t starve themselves, nor would they starve members of their households. It’s simply that even landlords weren’t that rich and had little reserves by modern standards before the onset of industrialization.

    But in 1932-33 most starvation deaths could have been avoided if they just accepted somewhat lower state grain reserves for a while. They wouldn’t have had to stop grain exports, or only for a short time. But the reason was political, they wanted to break the backbone of the peasantry. And there might have been even less sensible motivation, Snyder points out that the most ruthless Politburo resolution in November 1932 came just one day after the suicide of Stalin’s wife.
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  144. @Greasy William
    I was waiting for an OT thread to ask these questions. These questions are for the whole board but I'm particularly interested in Anatoly's response so I hope he answers.

    Question: In exchange for 10 billion USD tax free would you be willing to:

    A) Become a vegan
    B) Exchange faces with the ugliest guy in your high school graduating class
    C) Give up 6 inches off your height (I don't know what that is in metric units. This is America, speak English.)
    D) Give up alcohol (this is an easy one for Talha).
    E) Give up one of your pinky toes (keep in mind this would prevent you from walking normally)
    F) Become gay
    G) Give up the internet

    Here are my answers:

    A) No.
    B) This is a really tough one. That dude was hideous. I'm gonna say no but not sure that I would actually be able to turn down all that money.
    C) Yes. Hell yes.
    D) I don't drink, but I do have two cans of lemonade a day. I would give that up.
    E) Yes. Fuck, I would give up an entire foot.
    F) No.
    G) No.

    Y,Y,Y,Y,Y,N,Y

    Honestly hilarious, but you should have made the amount lower to make the decision more difficult. Maybe like 5 million or something.

    Peace.

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  145. @Thorfinnsson
    I support a Nordic federation with each Nordic nation preserving its identity and language within the federation.

    We only spent a bit more than one century in the same state, don't b.s. And other than Iceland (too small) every Nordic country has produced something of significance.

    The Ukraine on the other hand is a complete joke. I cannot take people seriously who advocate for its existence.

    Why would you want to be some mediocre loser country instead of part of a great power?

    So in this thread you have:

    - called for the abolition of the Baltic states
    - called for the abolition of Canada
    - called for the abolition of Poland
    - called for the abolition of Austria

    The more you post, the more mentally unstable you come across.

    I support a Nordic federation

    Don’t you live in the US? These autist LARPers are hilarious.

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    • Agree: Mr. Hack
    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    I am not strictly in favor of the abolition of Poland and the Baltic states. I am simply stating that they are irrelevant, and if Germany or Russia want to abolish them I have no problem with that. They don't offer anything to the world.

    The existence of Canada and Austria on the other hand is outright offensive and they should be eliminated immediately.

    And yes, I not only live in America but was born here, which is irrelevant to this discussion. Anyone in any country can see that Canada is a fake country that does not merit indpendence for instance.
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  146. AP says:
    @Thorfinnsson
    I support a Nordic federation with each Nordic nation preserving its identity and language within the federation.

    We only spent a bit more than one century in the same state, don't b.s. And other than Iceland (too small) every Nordic country has produced something of significance.

    The Ukraine on the other hand is a complete joke. I cannot take people seriously who advocate for its existence.

    Why would you want to be some mediocre loser country instead of part of a great power?

    We only spent a bit more than one century in the same state, don’t b.s.

    Are the schools in your country that bad?

    Norway was united to Denmark from around 1300 until 1814, when it was handed over to Sweden. That’s longer than any part of Ukraine was united to Russia.

    And Iceland was part of Denmark or Norway from 1260 until 1944.

    Why would you want to be some mediocre loser country instead of part of a great power

    So when will Sweden apply to become part of Russia, or the USA?

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    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson

    Are the schools in your country that bad?

    Norway was united to Denmark from around 1300 until 1814, when it was handed over to Sweden. That’s longer than any part of Ukraine was united to Russia.

    And Iceland was part of Denmark or Norway from 1260 until 1944.
     
    Now you are goalpost shifting. Denmark-Norway is not the same thing as the Kalmar Union, nor is Sweden-Norway. The three Scandinavian countries (or four if you include Iceland) were only united from 1397 to 1523.

    And citing schools, really?

    What kind of cuck are you?

    Schools are prisons for children and teachers are disgusting parasites who picked child abuse as a career.

    I cannot believe you would introduce schools in an an argument, and not only should you be ashamed of yourseld but you must apologize to us all immediately.
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  147. @melanf

    I don’t see where that “officially called genocide” comes from…have there been any resolutions by Western legislatures to that effect (like there have been about the Armenian genocide)?
     
    "Saskatchewan became the first jurisdiction in North America and the first province in Canada to recognize the Holodomor as a genocide.[144] The Ukrainian Famine and Genocide (Holodomor) Memorial Day Act was introduced in the Saskatchewan Legislature on May 6, 2008[145] and received royal assent on May 14, 2008."

    According to this, Russia has every reason to declare Yeltsin's "reforms" genocide, organized by the United States and the European Union. Accordingly, a law should be introduced punishing the denial of genocide, after which any Pro-Western political forces will go to prison forever (or even immediately to the gallows).
    The current authorities will not take such a step (they are too much connected with Yeltsin and still hope to cooperate with the West), but the next generation of politicians will probably take such steps (if of course we will avoid a thermonuclear war).

    Interesting, I didn’t know about Saskatchewan, thanks. I don’t think some Canadian province is that important though, obviously due to Ukrainian lobbyism in multiculti Canada, not to any widespread interest in the issue.

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  148. AP says:
    @Beckow

    Do you have evidence of Lord’s posses taking food from starving peasants?
     
    You seem to get all your information from Wikipedia. That's not a good source. One example I can give you is 1830's famine in eastern Hungary/Slovakia/Sub-Carpathian Ukraine. Heavy rains and poor harvests caused grain shortage, prices sky-rocketed, landlords with gendarmes roamed villages taking all food they could get their hands on. People starved, landlords sold to intermediaries (mostly Jewish) and made a killing. Some peasants retaliated by burning down a few manors - and again gendarmes suppressed it. This was one of the triggers for the 1848 abolishing of feudal responsibilities in Hungary.

    Similar acts are well documented in the late 18th century France, 30-year war in Germany, in the Balkans by Ottomans etc... Wikipedia is not in the business of describing the feudal era too critically (it lasted legally until late 19th century in most of Europe). The focus of Wiki is on the 20th century atrocities, they seldom ask why were most people so pissed off that they went bloody mad about any landlords, intermediaries, etc...

    There is also the silly modern Western mentality of pretending that somehow we are all descendants of knights and lords, that it was all about chivalry and sword fights. It wasn't, the atrocities and the revenge in the 2oth century didn't happen in a vacuum.

    Heavy rains and poor harvests caused grain shortage, prices sky-rocketed, landlords with gendarmes roamed villages taking all food they could get their hands on.

    So you admit that this famine wasn’t caused by the government taking grain from peasants, but by a grain shortage caused not by the government but by poor harvest, flooding, etc. And about 40,000 died at that time.

    You are comparing this to government setting too-high grain quotas, taking grain from the peasants themselves during a naturally non-famine year, on a scale that resulted in about 3 million deaths in Ukraine and a similar number elsewhere in the USSR..

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    • Replies: @Beckow
    I gave you one example. You can find literally dozens more around Europe in the last few hundred years. Your distinction between a 'government' and landlords is artificial - power is power, and the gendarmes who assisted the landlords were working for the government.

    You argue disingenuously, as if the reality didn't matter, only the way you cherry-pick facts and frame them. One more time: the so called genocide-famine in Soviet Union in the 1930's was similar to what European peasants had to live with for 1,000 years of feudal lords. The details were different, the weapons and tools more evolved, but the basic principle of people with power taking food from peasants was the same. If we call one a 'genocide' then a lot of European history is also a rolling genocide. I can show you villages that were wiped out by famine and the local lords did just fine. It was ugly, and so was 1930's in the Soviet Union. But to demonise one and mindlessly ignore - or even celebrate - the other one is dishonest. You seem quite dishonest in your posts here, a man with an agenda not seeking the truth.
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  149. AP says:
    @melanf

    Letting a far smaller nation
     
    That's not so. 90 million Germans, compared to 90 million Russians. Of course in the Soviet Union living not only Russian, but the population of "great" Germany and its satellites and colonies surpassed the population of the USSR.
    However ruled not the population but economy:industry of Germany (only Germany) by volume was superior to the Soviet industry in 1.5 times. Realistically (given technical level) superiority was much more

    the truth of all those lives needlessly wasted due to the leadership’s and system’s incompetence
     
    surprisingly idiotic statement

    That’s not so. 90 million Germans, compared to 90 million Russians.

    USSR had a population of 170 million in 1939 (I am not including the Balts and western Ukrainians, who were newly occupied and resistant).

    Germany (including Austria and Sudetenland) had a population of 79 million in 1939.

    Of course in the Soviet Union living not only Russian, but the population of “great” Germany and its satellites and colonies surpassed the population of the USSR.

    There was active and bloody resistance to German rule so these regions can be considered a minus rather than plus. And also Germany was in a fight with Britain and later the USA.

    So in addition to having to conquer and occupy all of Europe, and still fighting the Brits, Germany invaded the USSR who had over twice the population, and managed to capture much of the country and bled 20+ million Soviets.

    Epic poor performance by the Soviet regime. Really pathetic.

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    • Replies: @melanf

    USSR had a population of 170 million in 1939
     
    German Empire with satelit had 250 million in 1941 (of which 90 million Germans with Volksdeutsche)

    There was active and bloody resistance to German rule so these regions can be considered a minus rather than plus.
     
    These regions gave Germany in abundance soldiers (including many volunteers), resources and equipment. The resistance compared to this was negligible

    Germany invaded the USSR
     
    Rather Europe (with its huge population and gigantic industrial power) invaded the Soviet Union

    And also Germany was in a fight with Britain and later the USA.
     
    Of course it was an important factor, but it was fully manifested only after Stalingrad. Before Stalin fought with the enemy who had a very large superiority
    , @Gerard2

    USSR had a population of 170 million in 1939 (I am not including the Balts and western Ukrainians, who were newly occupied and resistant).

    Germany (including Austria and Sudetenland) had a population of 79 million in 1939.
     
    err..... Germany + Italy+ Romania = 140 -150 million you amazingly dumb retarded cun*

    Italy and Romania both had considerable armies and lost more in Russia, than the British lost in the North African campaign you fuck*ard.

    Whats most retarded about this nonsense is that's it's dumber than saying India beating Germany at football would not be a surprise result because India has a 15 times larger population.......or China should beat the USA at Basketball because of it's bigger population.....a completely retarded line of commentary by a spamtroll moron who knows fuckall about military matters ( of history).

    And also Germany was in a fight with Britain and later the USA.
     
    hahahaha!....Germany was only in a serious land fight with the British in North Africa, where the British lost a lot less and had operating there less than Romanians and Italians did on the Eastern Front you idiot.........the Americans weren't much of a factor in North Africa....and North African campaign involved civilians as spectators ( or not even that) because it was fighting over the oil in the desert you prick....completely different to the eastern Front. Other than the North African campaign there was no engagement of the British and the cowardly Americans with the Nazis on land until after the Soviets gloriously and miraculously started annihilating Nazi scum and forcing the back across Europe...so only after the period when Soviet Union had already lost 80% of their casualties and the Bbritish and Americans wanted to stop this...and not the Nazi's you idiot. The British were involved in a full-on naval battle with the Germans for the whole 6 years, and both Germany and Britain were bombing each others industries..........both added together aren't remotely close in size to the scale of fighting in the Eastern Front you cretin or to the myth of "fighting Britain and America at the same time"

    There was active and bloody resistance to German rule so these regions can be considered a minus rather than plus

     

    French "resistance" an Oxymoron you idiot....a few incidents here and there. Polish "resistance" a joke. The deaths and casualties on the Polish side from the non-suprising invasion of Poland were amazing huge you dickhead......15 times more Polish casualties ( and they and well equipped army at the time) than German and Soviet ones..........this despite the fact that on the significant part of the country held by the Soviet Union......it was pretty much like a DisneyWorld park for the Polish considering what the Germans were doing to them. Compare this to the casualties from the Barbarossa invasion you prick.......bigger scale of everything but a much lesser ratio in favour of the Germans. The Poles it should be noted, lost a considerable higher percentage of their people in WW2 than the high percentage ofthe Soviet Union........even though the Poles got annihilated and capitulated within a very short space of time......and not the severe cold weather/loss of 'breadbasket" that the Soviets had to endure

    Germany invaded the USSR who had over twice the population
     
    errr.... 140 million germans,Italians and Romanians vs 110 million Russians is somehow "double" in your fantasist scumbag mind? Bizarre.....again ...the size of the army, not population is important, the 50-60 year advantage of industrialisation the Germans had incredibly important, sophistication of their weapons....but for the Soviet people, Stalin and the gernerals to pull this around was truly remarkable.

    and managed to capture much of the country and 20+ million Soviets.
     
    German scum failing to adhere to the Geneva conventions ( which they impeccably observed in North Africa and Italy) and commiting war crimes on civilians ,thus accounting for a huge % of the deaths of the Soviet people .....is a failure of the Germans, not the Soviets you disgusting cun*.

    It's great because the reason a freak moron like you makes this idiotic comment is because whereas me and Melanf our proud of our grandfathers in WW2......a POS freak with obvious extreme mental problems like you is obviously related to the lowest of the law war criminal, failure scum with absolute nothing brave, successful or positive to say about in WW2..hence why war crimes, and weak military performance excites you dumb retarded pricks
    , @Dmitry

    There was active and bloody resistance to German rule so these regions can be considered a minus rather than plus. And also Germany was in a fight with Britain and later the USA.

    So in addition to having to conquer and occupy all of Europe, and still fighting the Brits, Germany invaded the USSR who had over twice the population, and managed to capture much of the country and bled 20+ million Soviets.

    Epic poor performance by the Soviet regime. Really pathetic.
     

    I understand you have a strong Russophobia, but this attempt to re-write military history is pathetic.

    I think we can distinguish rational Russophobia from irrational Russophobia.

    When you try to modify military history to accord with pre-set likes and dislikes, and to avoid basic facts - this has reached the stage of lack of basic honesty and has converted into playground childishness. Whether or not one likes or dislikes the Soviet leadership (I believe most of us are in latter category and certainly believe there should be no excuses for them), is a different topic altogether.

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  150. @AP

    That’s not so. 90 million Germans, compared to 90 million Russians.
     
    USSR had a population of 170 million in 1939 (I am not including the Balts and western Ukrainians, who were newly occupied and resistant).

    Germany (including Austria and Sudetenland) had a population of 79 million in 1939.

    Of course in the Soviet Union living not only Russian, but the population of “great” Germany and its satellites and colonies surpassed the population of the USSR.
     
    There was active and bloody resistance to German rule so these regions can be considered a minus rather than plus. And also Germany was in a fight with Britain and later the USA.

    So in addition to having to conquer and occupy all of Europe, and still fighting the Brits, Germany invaded the USSR who had over twice the population, and managed to capture much of the country and bled 20+ million Soviets.

    Epic poor performance by the Soviet regime. Really pathetic.

    USSR had a population of 170 million in 1939

    German Empire with satelit had 250 million in 1941 (of which 90 million Germans with Volksdeutsche)

    There was active and bloody resistance to German rule so these regions can be considered a minus rather than plus.

    These regions gave Germany in abundance soldiers (including many volunteers), resources and equipment. The resistance compared to this was negligible

    Germany invaded the USSR

    Rather Europe (with its huge population and gigantic industrial power) invaded the Soviet Union

    And also Germany was in a fight with Britain and later the USA.

    Of course it was an important factor, but it was fully manifested only after Stalingrad. Before Stalin fought with the enemy who had a very large superiority

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    • Replies: @AP
    BTW, you screwed this up:

    90 million Germans, compared to 90 million Russians.
     
    79 million in Germany, 108 million in the Russian part of the USSR. But if you add central Asia, Ukrainian SSR (not hostile Galicia), etc. you get 170 million.

    German Empire with satelit had 250 million in 1941 (of which 90 million Germans with Volksdeutsche)
     
    You mean newly-occupied territories such as Poland or France that required occupation forces and that had some sort of resistance movements.

    Again, this makes the Soviet effort look even worse. Not only did the invading Germans have half the population of the Soviets whom they invaded, but this smaller-nation was also busy occupying Europe when it invaded.

    Although I will admit a mistake: I didn't mention the Hungarian and Romanian allies. Still, altogether it was about 2:1 population advantage to the Soviets.

    These regions gave Germany in abundance soldiers (including many volunteers), resources and equipment. The resistance compared to this was negligible
     
    So you claim. I don't blame you. The waste of life must be excused somehow. There were how many German troops occupying France? 100,000? 200,000? And how many French volunteers. There was a "Charlemagne" SS division with up to 11,000 troops. And then you have Poland...

    Vlasov had about 120,000 Russians fighting for Germany. You will claim that this shows even more German numeric superiority. The reality is that a large number of its own citizens willing to fight for the enemy demonstrates how pathetic the Soviet regime was.
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  151. @Thorfinnsson
    The English, for all their merits, never attempted true ethnocides on the celtic fringe. The closest they came was the suppression of various Scottish cultural tropes after the Battle of Culloden, and that lasted only a few decades.

    Irish Papists had various legal restrictions until the middle of the 19th century, but Irish Gaelic was never banned. And Britain was relatively late to establishing compulsory public schools (prisons for children), so Irish children weren't forced to learn English at all for most of history.

    Britain's failure to properly ethnocide the celts still causes Britain issues today. Look at Scottish nationalism for instance. Objectively it's as ridiculous as Ukrainian or Canadian nationalism, and yet it's a thing.

    Beyond that we're simply talking tactics.

    You are Finnish and have some interesting things to say about Finland's history--I read all your comments. If Sweden hadn't succumbed to Russia then Finland would still be Swedish today. And ultimately Finland would have been ethnocided which would be to the advantage of both Sweden and Finland (note: not recommending such a policy today--Finland has proven itself and now English is what you should learn).

    You are Finnish and have some interesting things to say about Finland’s history–I read all your comments. If Sweden hadn’t succumbed to Russia then Finland would still be Swedish today. And ultimately Finland would have been ethnocided

    Not likely. Sweden did not have the means to do that without Finns just swapping loyalty to Russia.

    Sweden’s hold in Finland was always based on cultivating a Finnish loyalist class. Finns were never subjugated in the sense of having the native Finnish landowning class dismantled. To have the kind of power to attack the Finnish language in the inland Sweden would have needed to conquer Finland in a way that would transfer control of the inland from Finnish landowners to Swedes and starting a war against Finns in the East would have just given Russia a perfect opportunity to step in.

    Finland was always the kind of a colony where a significant fraction of the native population benefited and was given various privileges. Of course that means Finns were a bitterly divided people and could never have effective unified nationalism. It’s a very effective strategy to hold a territory and those Finns with privileges were extremely loyal to the Swedish King, generally more loyal than ethnic Swedes in Finland were.

    By the way, during the Russian period knowledge of Russian was spreading and welcomed by ethnic Finns since it was a great opportunity to get past Swedish attempts at control… until one day the Russians decided to make studying Russian obligatory. Then it became a matter of pride to refuse to speak Russian. If Russia hadn’t tried to force russification, Finland might never have even become rebellious, might still be a part of Russia and, ironically enough, might be Russian speaking today.

    You seem to have this idea that it’s easy for a state to just kill a language but most of the successful examples have been really tiny minority languages or changing a very closely related language so that it’s effectively just standardizing a dialect. Most attempts to force a language change have been failures that led to loss of control in long quiet territories, ethnic minorities siding with enemies of the dominant ethnicity and so on.

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    • Replies: @for-the-record
    You seem to have this idea that it’s easy for a state to just kill a language but most of the successful examples have been really tiny minority languages or changing a very closely related language so that it’s effectively just standardizing a dialect.

    I agree with you on this, to me it's quite impressive how historically repressed languages (Catalan, Czech, etc.) managed to survive and then revive.
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  152. White South Africans will only leave if the economy collapses ala Venezuela however I suspect the Boers ( a majority at least ) will not leave nor do I think they’ll meekly lay down, There is already in S Africa the Suitlander ( excuse the spelling ) movement which numbers 800,000 members and is preparing for just such a scenario ( National collapse ) they are prepared motivated and committed to defending themselves. Perhaps we’ll see a Boer State emerge along the Bosnia model.

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    • Replies: @Dante
    I am familiar with the Suitlanders and yes they are preparing to protect themselves against the coming chaos, And no they won't leave nor will they roll over and give up. There is an English language website alk about them just Google Suidlanders
    , @AP
    Correct. And not only Boers. A friend visited some (Polish) relatives in South Africa (they had settled there in the 70s IIRC) and was impressed by the stockpile of weapons this and other families kept.

    Unlike English, or others, Boers are natives - settled hundreds of years ago, only a few decades after the Zulus came down.
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  153. @Polish Perspective
    So in this thread you have:

    - called for the abolition of the Baltic states
    - called for the abolition of Canada
    - called for the abolition of Poland
    - called for the abolition of Austria

    The more you post, the more mentally unstable you come across.


    I support a Nordic federation
     
    Don't you live in the US? These autist LARPers are hilarious.

    I am not strictly in favor of the abolition of Poland and the Baltic states. I am simply stating that they are irrelevant, and if Germany or Russia want to abolish them I have no problem with that. They don’t offer anything to the world.

    The existence of Canada and Austria on the other hand is outright offensive and they should be eliminated immediately.

    And yes, I not only live in America but was born here, which is irrelevant to this discussion. Anyone in any country can see that Canada is a fake country that does not merit indpendence for instance.

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    • Replies: @German_reader

    I am simply stating that they are irrelevant, and if Germany or Russia want to abolish them I have no problem with that. They don’t offer anything to the world.
     
    Eh, what exactly does Sweden offer to the world? Being a "humanitarian superpower" and spreading her legs for every Somali that comes along?
    Not trying to be offensive, but it's kind of odd that you're dissing even a major country of almost 40 million like Poland that has 1000 years of national history and has potential to be a mid-sized European power...it's hard to see how Sweden is supposed to be superior...
    , @for-the-record
    They [Poland, Baltic States] don’t offer anything to the world.

    Sorry, but this is total and utter rubbish. The justification of a people is not what they offer to the world but what they offer to themselves. Poles and Balts have every bit as much right to be part of the world as Germans, Russians and Swedes, and anybody else for that matter.
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  154. AP says:
    @melanf

    USSR had a population of 170 million in 1939
     
    German Empire with satelit had 250 million in 1941 (of which 90 million Germans with Volksdeutsche)

    There was active and bloody resistance to German rule so these regions can be considered a minus rather than plus.
     
    These regions gave Germany in abundance soldiers (including many volunteers), resources and equipment. The resistance compared to this was negligible

    Germany invaded the USSR
     
    Rather Europe (with its huge population and gigantic industrial power) invaded the Soviet Union

    And also Germany was in a fight with Britain and later the USA.
     
    Of course it was an important factor, but it was fully manifested only after Stalingrad. Before Stalin fought with the enemy who had a very large superiority

    BTW, you screwed this up:

    90 million Germans, compared to 90 million Russians.

    79 million in Germany, 108 million in the Russian part of the USSR. But if you add central Asia, Ukrainian SSR (not hostile Galicia), etc. you get 170 million.

    German Empire with satelit had 250 million in 1941 (of which 90 million Germans with Volksdeutsche)

    You mean newly-occupied territories such as Poland or France that required occupation forces and that had some sort of resistance movements.

    Again, this makes the Soviet effort look even worse. Not only did the invading Germans have half the population of the Soviets whom they invaded, but this smaller-nation was also busy occupying Europe when it invaded.

    Although I will admit a mistake: I didn’t mention the Hungarian and Romanian allies. Still, altogether it was about 2:1 population advantage to the Soviets.

    These regions gave Germany in abundance soldiers (including many volunteers), resources and equipment. The resistance compared to this was negligible

    So you claim. I don’t blame you. The waste of life must be excused somehow. There were how many German troops occupying France? 100,000? 200,000? And how many French volunteers. There was a “Charlemagne” SS division with up to 11,000 troops. And then you have Poland…

    Vlasov had about 120,000 Russians fighting for Germany. You will claim that this shows even more German numeric superiority. The reality is that a large number of its own citizens willing to fight for the enemy demonstrates how pathetic the Soviet regime was.

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    • Replies: @melanf

    79 million in Germany,
     
    And as I remember 9 million Volksdeutsche

    108 million in the Russian part of the USSR
     
    of which 80% are Russians. But if from this number, remove the peasants who had no national consciousness (in contrast to the Germans whose brains have been washed for a long time)....

    But if you add central Asia, Ukrainian SSR....
     
    But if you add Finland, Romania, Hungary, Croatia, Slovakia...

    You mean newly-occupied territories such as Poland
     
    I can't say anything bad about the poles, but the economic power of occupied Poland worked for Germany. And since 1944, the Wehrmacht began to mobilize poles from the Western regions of Poland.. The occupied European countries worked willingly or unwillingly for Germany (with the exception of the Balkans).

    And how many French volunteers.
     
    The red army captured 22,000 French. But the main thing was of course the economic potential of France

    Vlasov had about 120,000 Russians fighting for Germany.
     
    No. Unlike European volunteers (who fought very well), the Vlasov army was formed from prisoners of war, seeking to avoid death in concentration camps. This "army" could not fight and did not fight, and was in fact a waste of resources. The number of this army you are as it seems greatly overstated

    The reality is that a large number of its own citizens willing to fight for the enemy
     
    If you're talking about Russians, it's a myth. People who want to fight for Germany was negligible. But if you are about such as the Crimean Tatars? Well, Stalin dealt with them (an event that Europe mourn to this day)
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  155. @AP

    We only spent a bit more than one century in the same state, don’t b.s.
     
    Are the schools in your country that bad?

    Norway was united to Denmark from around 1300 until 1814, when it was handed over to Sweden. That's longer than any part of Ukraine was united to Russia.

    And Iceland was part of Denmark or Norway from 1260 until 1944.

    Why would you want to be some mediocre loser country instead of part of a great power
     
    So when will Sweden apply to become part of Russia, or the USA?

    Are the schools in your country that bad?

    Norway was united to Denmark from around 1300 until 1814, when it was handed over to Sweden. That’s longer than any part of Ukraine was united to Russia.

    And Iceland was part of Denmark or Norway from 1260 until 1944.

    Now you are goalpost shifting. Denmark-Norway is not the same thing as the Kalmar Union, nor is Sweden-Norway. The three Scandinavian countries (or four if you include Iceland) were only united from 1397 to 1523.

    And citing schools, really?

    What kind of cuck are you?

    Schools are prisons for children and teachers are disgusting parasites who picked child abuse as a career.

    I cannot believe you would introduce schools in an an argument, and not only should you be ashamed of yourseld but you must apologize to us all immediately.

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    • Replies: @for-the-record
    Schools are prisons for children and teachers are disgusting parasites who picked child abuse as a career. I cannot believe you would introduce schools in an an argument, and not only should you be ashamed of yourself but you must apologize to us all immediately.

    You really do have serious problems. Modern schools may be disastrous in many cases, I don't disagree with this. But schools can be a very positive thing, they certainly were in my day. I have great respect for (most) of my teachers, calling them "disgusting parasites" is truly sick.

    Obviously in your case schools must have had a very negative influence, but I think I can safely assert that this wasn't the case for most people here.

    , @AP

    Denmark-Norway is not the same thing as the Kalmar Union
     
    Were Norway and Denmark united from c.1300 to c.1800 or not? That's 500 years. The eastern parts of Ukraine were united to Russia from c. 1650 until 1990 - 390 years.

    If you are going to play a game about the type of union, until c. 1770 Ukraine was an autonomous Hetmanate and after 1917 it was briefly independent and then the Ukrainian SSR, so full union with Russia only lasted 147 years.
    , @dfordoom

    Schools are prisons for children and teachers are disgusting parasites who picked child abuse as a career.
     
    I wouldn't go quite that far but complsory public education was a seriously bad idea.
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  156. @Dave Marotta
    White South Africans will only leave if the economy collapses ala Venezuela however I suspect the Boers ( a majority at least ) will not leave nor do I think they'll meekly lay down, There is already in S Africa the Suitlander ( excuse the spelling ) movement which numbers 800,000 members and is preparing for just such a scenario ( National collapse ) they are prepared motivated and committed to defending themselves. Perhaps we'll see a Boer State emerge along the Bosnia model.

    I am familiar with the Suitlanders and yes they are preparing to protect themselves against the coming chaos, And no they won’t leave nor will they roll over and give up. There is an English language website alk about them just Google Suidlanders

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  157. @Thorfinnsson
    I am not strictly in favor of the abolition of Poland and the Baltic states. I am simply stating that they are irrelevant, and if Germany or Russia want to abolish them I have no problem with that. They don't offer anything to the world.

    The existence of Canada and Austria on the other hand is outright offensive and they should be eliminated immediately.

    And yes, I not only live in America but was born here, which is irrelevant to this discussion. Anyone in any country can see that Canada is a fake country that does not merit indpendence for instance.

    I am simply stating that they are irrelevant, and if Germany or Russia want to abolish them I have no problem with that. They don’t offer anything to the world.

    Eh, what exactly does Sweden offer to the world? Being a “humanitarian superpower” and spreading her legs for every Somali that comes along?
    Not trying to be offensive, but it’s kind of odd that you’re dissing even a major country of almost 40 million like Poland that has 1000 years of national history and has potential to be a mid-sized European power…it’s hard to see how Sweden is supposed to be superior…

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    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    I am not offended, these are exactly the types of discussions we should be having.

    Sweden has given the world Alfred Nobel, Gustav Dalen, Ivar Kreuger, Axel Wenner-Gren, Count Folke Bernadott, LM Ericsson, Volvo, IKEA, SKF, and much more.

    The Swedes have produced extraordinary things far exceeding their numbers.

    What has Poland done? I can't even think of a single notable Polish achievement.

    It's too easy for we "nationalists" to get caught up in thinking every country has some inherent right to exist.
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  158. A well thought out and interesting response, but I’m not sure it addresses my actual point. It’s mainly a comment on Finnish history.

    And I didn’t say ethnocide is easy, just that it can be beneficial. Obviously ethnocide is quite difficult, hence why it has so often failed.

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  159. @AP

    Heavy rains and poor harvests caused grain shortage, prices sky-rocketed, landlords with gendarmes roamed villages taking all food they could get their hands on.
     
    So you admit that this famine wasn't caused by the government taking grain from peasants, but by a grain shortage caused not by the government but by poor harvest, flooding, etc. And about 40,000 died at that time.

    You are comparing this to government setting too-high grain quotas, taking grain from the peasants themselves during a naturally non-famine year, on a scale that resulted in about 3 million deaths in Ukraine and a similar number elsewhere in the USSR..

    I gave you one example. You can find literally dozens more around Europe in the last few hundred years. Your distinction between a ‘government‘ and landlords is artificial – power is power, and the gendarmes who assisted the landlords were working for the government.

    You argue disingenuously, as if the reality didn’t matter, only the way you cherry-pick facts and frame them. One more time: the so called genocide-famine in Soviet Union in the 1930′s was similar to what European peasants had to live with for 1,000 years of feudal lords. The details were different, the weapons and tools more evolved, but the basic principle of people with power taking food from peasants was the same. If we call one a ‘genocide‘ then a lot of European history is also a rolling genocide. I can show you villages that were wiped out by famine and the local lords did just fine. It was ugly, and so was 1930′s in the Soviet Union. But to demonise one and mindlessly ignore – or even celebrate – the other one is dishonest. You seem quite dishonest in your posts here, a man with an agenda not seeking the truth.

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    • Replies: @AP

    I gave you one example
     
    And the example was a failure.

    Again - cause was natural event, not human action. Completely different from the Soviet artificial famine.

    You can find literally dozens more around Europe in the last few hundred years.

     

    How many dozens? And why "few hundred years?" Technology should prevent mass deaths in the middle of the 20th century in a way that it could not in 1700.

    You argue disingenuously
     
    Do not confuse me for yourself. In various discussions your dishonesty and arguing in bad faith have been revealed. It's a well-established pattern.

    called genocide-famine in Soviet Union in the 1930′s was similar to what European peasants had to live with for 1,000 years

     

    Example of your dishonesty. How often during a non-famine year did government (or noble) forces take all the food from the peasants on such a scale that millions of them died? We aren't talking about a catastrophic harvest during which it was every man for himself, and ones with the guns or swords survived while those without perished. A normal harvest, but someone decided to take all the grain and by this action to starve the peasants. Examples? Try to be honest for once, it is hard for you, I know.

    Irish has some elements of it. The potatoes died, which is why the Irish peasants starved. But there were other grains around them that could easily have been given to them and they weren't. For this situation to have been analogous to the Soviet one, it would have been normal potato harvest, but the Brits went around taking all the potatoes from Irish people's houses, forcing them to starve.
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  160. @German_reader

    I am simply stating that they are irrelevant, and if Germany or Russia want to abolish them I have no problem with that. They don’t offer anything to the world.
     
    Eh, what exactly does Sweden offer to the world? Being a "humanitarian superpower" and spreading her legs for every Somali that comes along?
    Not trying to be offensive, but it's kind of odd that you're dissing even a major country of almost 40 million like Poland that has 1000 years of national history and has potential to be a mid-sized European power...it's hard to see how Sweden is supposed to be superior...

    I am not offended, these are exactly the types of discussions we should be having.

    Sweden has given the world Alfred Nobel, Gustav Dalen, Ivar Kreuger, Axel Wenner-Gren, Count Folke Bernadott, LM Ericsson, Volvo, IKEA, SKF, and much more.

    The Swedes have produced extraordinary things far exceeding their numbers.

    What has Poland done? I can’t even think of a single notable Polish achievement.

    It’s too easy for we “nationalists” to get caught up in thinking every country has some inherent right to exist.

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    • Replies: @German_reader

    The Swedes have produced extraordinary things far exceeding their numbers.
     
    I don't know, is IKEA really supposed to be a sign of national excellence? That's a bit like saying the US is great because of Walmart.
    Sure, the Swedes do have some achievements to be proud of like their aviation industry. But frankly, it does seem to me that they suffer from a seriously inflated sense of their own importance (either in the leftie do-gooder sense of "We're a humanitarian superpower and lecturing everyone else!", or in a racialist-nationalist sense of Nordic superiority). In reality Sweden is a country of fairly limited importance where not much interesting has happened for the last 200 years. It's hard to see how European civilization would have been much poorer if Sweden had never existed.
    , @iffen
    I can’t even think of a single notable Polish achievement.

    Pierogis
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  161. AP says:
    @Dave Marotta
    White South Africans will only leave if the economy collapses ala Venezuela however I suspect the Boers ( a majority at least ) will not leave nor do I think they'll meekly lay down, There is already in S Africa the Suitlander ( excuse the spelling ) movement which numbers 800,000 members and is preparing for just such a scenario ( National collapse ) they are prepared motivated and committed to defending themselves. Perhaps we'll see a Boer State emerge along the Bosnia model.

    Correct. And not only Boers. A friend visited some (Polish) relatives in South Africa (they had settled there in the 70s IIRC) and was impressed by the stockpile of weapons this and other families kept.

    Unlike English, or others, Boers are natives – settled hundreds of years ago, only a few decades after the Zulus came down.

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  162. @Jaakko Raipala

    You are Finnish and have some interesting things to say about Finland’s history–I read all your comments. If Sweden hadn’t succumbed to Russia then Finland would still be Swedish today. And ultimately Finland would have been ethnocided
     
    Not likely. Sweden did not have the means to do that without Finns just swapping loyalty to Russia.

    Sweden's hold in Finland was always based on cultivating a Finnish loyalist class. Finns were never subjugated in the sense of having the native Finnish landowning class dismantled. To have the kind of power to attack the Finnish language in the inland Sweden would have needed to conquer Finland in a way that would transfer control of the inland from Finnish landowners to Swedes and starting a war against Finns in the East would have just given Russia a perfect opportunity to step in.

    Finland was always the kind of a colony where a significant fraction of the native population benefited and was given various privileges. Of course that means Finns were a bitterly divided people and could never have effective unified nationalism. It's a very effective strategy to hold a territory and those Finns with privileges were extremely loyal to the Swedish King, generally more loyal than ethnic Swedes in Finland were.

    By the way, during the Russian period knowledge of Russian was spreading and welcomed by ethnic Finns since it was a great opportunity to get past Swedish attempts at control... until one day the Russians decided to make studying Russian obligatory. Then it became a matter of pride to refuse to speak Russian. If Russia hadn't tried to force russification, Finland might never have even become rebellious, might still be a part of Russia and, ironically enough, might be Russian speaking today.

    You seem to have this idea that it's easy for a state to just kill a language but most of the successful examples have been really tiny minority languages or changing a very closely related language so that it's effectively just standardizing a dialect. Most attempts to force a language change have been failures that led to loss of control in long quiet territories, ethnic minorities siding with enemies of the dominant ethnicity and so on.

    You seem to have this idea that it’s easy for a state to just kill a language but most of the successful examples have been really tiny minority languages or changing a very closely related language so that it’s effectively just standardizing a dialect.

    I agree with you on this, to me it’s quite impressive how historically repressed languages (Catalan, Czech, etc.) managed to survive and then revive.

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    • Replies: @iffen
    it’s quite impressive how historically repressed languages (Catalan, Czech, etc.) managed to survive and then revive.

    And that's not even mentioning Hebrew.
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  163. @Thorfinnsson
    I am not offended, these are exactly the types of discussions we should be having.

    Sweden has given the world Alfred Nobel, Gustav Dalen, Ivar Kreuger, Axel Wenner-Gren, Count Folke Bernadott, LM Ericsson, Volvo, IKEA, SKF, and much more.

    The Swedes have produced extraordinary things far exceeding their numbers.

    What has Poland done? I can't even think of a single notable Polish achievement.

    It's too easy for we "nationalists" to get caught up in thinking every country has some inherent right to exist.

    The Swedes have produced extraordinary things far exceeding their numbers.

    I don’t know, is IKEA really supposed to be a sign of national excellence? That’s a bit like saying the US is great because of Walmart.
    Sure, the Swedes do have some achievements to be proud of like their aviation industry. But frankly, it does seem to me that they suffer from a seriously inflated sense of their own importance (either in the leftie do-gooder sense of “We’re a humanitarian superpower and lecturing everyone else!”, or in a racialist-nationalist sense of Nordic superiority). In reality Sweden is a country of fairly limited importance where not much interesting has happened for the last 200 years. It’s hard to see how European civilization would have been much poorer if Sweden had never existed.

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    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    Yes, Wal-Mart is great. Only a great people could create Wal-Mart.

    Your other comments on Swedes aren't wrong, but do bear in mind the country is quite small. On a per capita level the country's achievements are highly impressive, though as usual probably outdone by the Swiss.
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  164. @Thorfinnsson
    I am not strictly in favor of the abolition of Poland and the Baltic states. I am simply stating that they are irrelevant, and if Germany or Russia want to abolish them I have no problem with that. They don't offer anything to the world.

    The existence of Canada and Austria on the other hand is outright offensive and they should be eliminated immediately.

    And yes, I not only live in America but was born here, which is irrelevant to this discussion. Anyone in any country can see that Canada is a fake country that does not merit indpendence for instance.

    They [Poland, Baltic States] don’t offer anything to the world.

    Sorry, but this is total and utter rubbish. The justification of a people is not what they offer to the world but what they offer to themselves. Poles and Balts have every bit as much right to be part of the world as Germans, Russians and Swedes, and anybody else for that matter.

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    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    You are getting things completely backwards.

    Yes, obviously Poles and Balts have an interest in remaining Polish and Baltic. You'd have to be an idiot (or a liberal) to think otherwise.

    But do those of us who are not Polish or Baltic have an interest in those countries existing?
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  165. AP says:
    @Beckow
    I gave you one example. You can find literally dozens more around Europe in the last few hundred years. Your distinction between a 'government' and landlords is artificial - power is power, and the gendarmes who assisted the landlords were working for the government.

    You argue disingenuously, as if the reality didn't matter, only the way you cherry-pick facts and frame them. One more time: the so called genocide-famine in Soviet Union in the 1930's was similar to what European peasants had to live with for 1,000 years of feudal lords. The details were different, the weapons and tools more evolved, but the basic principle of people with power taking food from peasants was the same. If we call one a 'genocide' then a lot of European history is also a rolling genocide. I can show you villages that were wiped out by famine and the local lords did just fine. It was ugly, and so was 1930's in the Soviet Union. But to demonise one and mindlessly ignore - or even celebrate - the other one is dishonest. You seem quite dishonest in your posts here, a man with an agenda not seeking the truth.

    I gave you one example

    And the example was a failure.

    Again – cause was natural event, not human action. Completely different from the Soviet artificial famine.

    You can find literally dozens more around Europe in the last few hundred years.

    How many dozens? And why “few hundred years?” Technology should prevent mass deaths in the middle of the 20th century in a way that it could not in 1700.

    You argue disingenuously

    Do not confuse me for yourself. In various discussions your dishonesty and arguing in bad faith have been revealed. It’s a well-established pattern.

    called genocide-famine in Soviet Union in the 1930′s was similar to what European peasants had to live with for 1,000 years

    Example of your dishonesty. How often during a non-famine year did government (or noble) forces take all the food from the peasants on such a scale that millions of them died? We aren’t talking about a catastrophic harvest during which it was every man for himself, and ones with the guns or swords survived while those without perished. A normal harvest, but someone decided to take all the grain and by this action to starve the peasants. Examples? Try to be honest for once, it is hard for you, I know.

    Irish has some elements of it. The potatoes died, which is why the Irish peasants starved. But there were other grains around them that could easily have been given to them and they weren’t. For this situation to have been analogous to the Soviet one, it would have been normal potato harvest, but the Brits went around taking all the potatoes from Irish people’s houses, forcing them to starve.

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    • Replies: @melanf

    Example of your dishonesty. How often during a non-famine year did government (or noble) forces take all the food from the peasants on such a scale that millions of them died?
     
    "Savings could be achieved by directly reducing wages ....(such as) a reduction in the average weekly salary of hand weavers in Bolton from 33 shillings and 14 pennies in 1795 and 14 shillings in 1815 to 5 shillings and b pennies in 1829-1834.“* In fact, in the post-Napoleonic period there was a steady decline in the level of wages. But there is a physiological limit to such reduction, otherwise the workers had to die of hunger, what happened — 500 000 of the weavers died of starvation."

    E. J. Hobsbawn's "the Age of revolutions"

    Translation from Russian-I unfortunately have not seen
    English original. Because of this, I'm not sure about weavers, but there is no doubt that the industrial revolution in Western Europe was carried out monstrous methods, and cost orders of magnitude more lives than Stalin's industrialization.

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  166. @Daniel Chieh
    Didn't Himmler send exepeditions into Tibet to look for the original Aryans and their presumed origin? He took this quite seriously.

    There was a proposed idea that the ancient Aryans could have evolved into a super intelligent and strong race in the harshest region in the world and then spread around the world to become shadows of their former selves by mixing with all sorts of people. I don’t think they found evidence…

    Himmler sponsored a lot of expeditions that mixed competent botanists, linguists and the like with crazy occultists who were just making stuff up. For example, Himmler hired this guy to do work expeditions in the Soviet Union:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yrj%C3%B6_von_Gr%C3%B6nhagen

    I read his book (which unfortunately only exists in Finnish) which details his life as a living /pol/ meme in Nazi Germany creating blonde hair prevalence charts and trying to prove that Finns are related to Aryans (and not Mongols). “Aryan” indeed did not mean “blonde” or “Nordic” in SS Ahnenerbe as blonde and Nordic looking Finns were not considered Aryans but swarthy Iranians and gypsies were.

    That book has some weird shit. Himmler wanted his scientists to work with characters like Karl Maria Wiligut who believed the pagan magic being uncovered could be actually used to win wars and von Grönhagen got stuck having to either perform naked pagan rites for his mystic circle or risk getting fired from the lucrative position for offending Himmler’s spiritual adviser.

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    • Agree: Daniel Chieh
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  167. @Thorfinnsson

    Are the schools in your country that bad?

    Norway was united to Denmark from around 1300 until 1814, when it was handed over to Sweden. That’s longer than any part of Ukraine was united to Russia.

    And Iceland was part of Denmark or Norway from 1260 until 1944.
     
    Now you are goalpost shifting. Denmark-Norway is not the same thing as the Kalmar Union, nor is Sweden-Norway. The three Scandinavian countries (or four if you include Iceland) were only united from 1397 to 1523.

    And citing schools, really?

    What kind of cuck are you?

    Schools are prisons for children and teachers are disgusting parasites who picked child abuse as a career.

    I cannot believe you would introduce schools in an an argument, and not only should you be ashamed of yourseld but you must apologize to us all immediately.

    Schools are prisons for children and teachers are disgusting parasites who picked child abuse as a career. I cannot believe you would introduce schools in an an argument, and not only should you be ashamed of yourself but you must apologize to us all immediately.

    You really do have serious problems. Modern schools may be disastrous in many cases, I don’t disagree with this. But schools can be a very positive thing, they certainly were in my day. I have great respect for (most) of my teachers, calling them “disgusting parasites” is truly sick.

    Obviously in your case schools must have had a very negative influence, but I think I can safely assert that this wasn’t the case for most people here.

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    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    Stockholm syndrome is a condition that causes hostages to develop a psychological alliance with their captors as a survival strategy during captivity.[1] These feelings, resulting from a bond formed between captor and captives during intimate time spent together, are generally considered irrational in light of the danger or risk endured by the victims. Generally speaking, Stockholm syndrome consists of "strong emotional ties that develop between two persons where one person intermittently harasses, beats, threatens, abuses, or intimidates the other."[2]
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  168. AP says:
    @Thorfinnsson

    Are the schools in your country that bad?

    Norway was united to Denmark from around 1300 until 1814, when it was handed over to Sweden. That’s longer than any part of Ukraine was united to Russia.

    And Iceland was part of Denmark or Norway from 1260 until 1944.
     
    Now you are goalpost shifting. Denmark-Norway is not the same thing as the Kalmar Union, nor is Sweden-Norway. The three Scandinavian countries (or four if you include Iceland) were only united from 1397 to 1523.

    And citing schools, really?

    What kind of cuck are you?

    Schools are prisons for children and teachers are disgusting parasites who picked child abuse as a career.

    I cannot believe you would introduce schools in an an argument, and not only should you be ashamed of yourseld but you must apologize to us all immediately.

    Denmark-Norway is not the same thing as the Kalmar Union

    Were Norway and Denmark united from c.1300 to c.1800 or not? That’s 500 years. The eastern parts of Ukraine were united to Russia from c. 1650 until 1990 – 390 years.

    If you are going to play a game about the type of union, until c. 1770 Ukraine was an autonomous Hetmanate and after 1917 it was briefly independent and then the Ukrainian SSR, so full union with Russia only lasted 147 years.

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    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    Cool dude, doubling down on your goal post shifting. This is leading to a really productive conversation.

    There is more to it than formal political association.

    There is no independent Ukrainian culture of note, and the Ukrainian "language" is only a dialect.

    I could spend quite a lot of time insulting Norway and Denmark, but they're genuinely distinct from Sweden.

    Not so with the Ukraine--it's a 100% fake country and people who defend its existence are almost always wrongists. The country was fucking invented by WW1 German generals ffs.

    If you're new to the concept of wrongism, it means you genuinely prefer being incorrect--generally for emotional reasons.

    And you're treading into the dangerous terrain of wrongism.

    Don't you want to be right?

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  169. @Thorfinnsson
    I am not offended, these are exactly the types of discussions we should be having.

    Sweden has given the world Alfred Nobel, Gustav Dalen, Ivar Kreuger, Axel Wenner-Gren, Count Folke Bernadott, LM Ericsson, Volvo, IKEA, SKF, and much more.

    The Swedes have produced extraordinary things far exceeding their numbers.

    What has Poland done? I can't even think of a single notable Polish achievement.

    It's too easy for we "nationalists" to get caught up in thinking every country has some inherent right to exist.

    I can’t even think of a single notable Polish achievement.

    Pierogis

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    • Replies: @Talha
    That and being instrumental in stopping the Turks at Vienna - that’s gotta count for something...

    Peace.
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  170. @for-the-record
    You seem to have this idea that it’s easy for a state to just kill a language but most of the successful examples have been really tiny minority languages or changing a very closely related language so that it’s effectively just standardizing a dialect.

    I agree with you on this, to me it's quite impressive how historically repressed languages (Catalan, Czech, etc.) managed to survive and then revive.

    it’s quite impressive how historically repressed languages (Catalan, Czech, etc.) managed to survive and then revive.

    And that’s not even mentioning Hebrew.

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    • Replies: @Anon
    Of course not, for Hebrew was neither repressed, nor did it survive. It was "revived" as a dead language by the early Zionists.
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  171. @AP
    BTW, you screwed this up:

    90 million Germans, compared to 90 million Russians.
     
    79 million in Germany, 108 million in the Russian part of the USSR. But if you add central Asia, Ukrainian SSR (not hostile Galicia), etc. you get 170 million.

    German Empire with satelit had 250 million in 1941 (of which 90 million Germans with Volksdeutsche)
     
    You mean newly-occupied territories such as Poland or France that required occupation forces and that had some sort of resistance movements.

    Again, this makes the Soviet effort look even worse. Not only did the invading Germans have half the population of the Soviets whom they invaded, but this smaller-nation was also busy occupying Europe when it invaded.

    Although I will admit a mistake: I didn't mention the Hungarian and Romanian allies. Still, altogether it was about 2:1 population advantage to the Soviets.

    These regions gave Germany in abundance soldiers (including many volunteers), resources and equipment. The resistance compared to this was negligible
     
    So you claim. I don't blame you. The waste of life must be excused somehow. There were how many German troops occupying France? 100,000? 200,000? And how many French volunteers. There was a "Charlemagne" SS division with up to 11,000 troops. And then you have Poland...

    Vlasov had about 120,000 Russians fighting for Germany. You will claim that this shows even more German numeric superiority. The reality is that a large number of its own citizens willing to fight for the enemy demonstrates how pathetic the Soviet regime was.

    79 million in Germany,

    And as I remember 9 million Volksdeutsche

    108 million in the Russian part of the USSR

    of which 80% are Russians. But if from this number, remove the peasants who had no national consciousness (in contrast to the Germans whose brains have been washed for a long time)….

    But if you add central Asia, Ukrainian SSR….

    But if you add Finland, Romania, Hungary, Croatia, Slovakia…

    You mean newly-occupied territories such as Poland

    I can’t say anything bad about the poles, but the economic power of occupied Poland worked for Germany. And since 1944, the Wehrmacht began to mobilize poles from the Western regions of Poland.. The occupied European countries worked willingly or unwillingly for Germany (with the exception of the Balkans).

    And how many French volunteers.

    The red army captured 22,000 French. But the main thing was of course the economic potential of France

    Vlasov had about 120,000 Russians fighting for Germany.

    No. Unlike European volunteers (who fought very well), the Vlasov army was formed from prisoners of war, seeking to avoid death in concentration camps. This “army” could not fight and did not fight, and was in fact a waste of resources. The number of this army you are as it seems greatly overstated

    The reality is that a large number of its own citizens willing to fight for the enemy

    If you’re talking about Russians, it’s a myth. People who want to fight for Germany was negligible. But if you are about such as the Crimean Tatars? Well, Stalin dealt with them (an event that Europe mourn to this day)

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    • Replies: @AP

    79 million in Germany,

    And as I remember 9 million Volksdeutsche
     
    Then you can also count Russians outside Russia.

    108 million in the Russian part of the USSR

    of which 80% are Russians.
     
    Since the context here is view of self as part of the Russian political entity, many of the rest (Tatars, etc.) would also count. Chechens probably wouldn't, but that's a small percentage.

    But if you add central Asia, Ukrainian SSR….

    But if you add Finland, Romania, Hungary, Croatia, Slovakia…
     
    If you want to add allies, then UK and USA more than compensate for these countries.

    So you are back to a nation of 79 million slaughtering and almost defeating one of 170 million.

    Vlasov had about 120,000 Russians fighting for Germany.

    No. Unlike European volunteers (who fought very well), the Vlasov army was formed from prisoners of war, seeking to avoid death in concentration camps. This “army” could not fight and did not fight, and was in fact a waste of resources.
     
    Even better. So Germany was wasting resources on Vlasov, occupying all of Europe, fighting the British and the Americans, and still managed to kill 20+ million Soviets and nearly defeat the massive Soviet Union. Terrible Soviet performance.
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  172. @German_reader

    The Swedes have produced extraordinary things far exceeding their numbers.
     
    I don't know, is IKEA really supposed to be a sign of national excellence? That's a bit like saying the US is great because of Walmart.
    Sure, the Swedes do have some achievements to be proud of like their aviation industry. But frankly, it does seem to me that they suffer from a seriously inflated sense of their own importance (either in the leftie do-gooder sense of "We're a humanitarian superpower and lecturing everyone else!", or in a racialist-nationalist sense of Nordic superiority). In reality Sweden is a country of fairly limited importance where not much interesting has happened for the last 200 years. It's hard to see how European civilization would have been much poorer if Sweden had never existed.

    Yes, Wal-Mart is great. Only a great people could create Wal-Mart.

    Your other comments on Swedes aren’t wrong, but do bear in mind the country is quite small. On a per capita level the country’s achievements are highly impressive, though as usual probably outdone by the Swiss.

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    • Replies: @JL
    I read somewhere that Sweden has the largest military industrial complex in the world, per capita.
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  173. @for-the-record
    They [Poland, Baltic States] don’t offer anything to the world.

    Sorry, but this is total and utter rubbish. The justification of a people is not what they offer to the world but what they offer to themselves. Poles and Balts have every bit as much right to be part of the world as Germans, Russians and Swedes, and anybody else for that matter.

    You are getting things completely backwards.

    Yes, obviously Poles and Balts have an interest in remaining Polish and Baltic. You’d have to be an idiot (or a liberal) to think otherwise.

    But do those of us who are not Polish or Baltic have an interest in those countries existing?

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  174. @AP

    Denmark-Norway is not the same thing as the Kalmar Union
     
    Were Norway and Denmark united from c.1300 to c.1800 or not? That's 500 years. The eastern parts of Ukraine were united to Russia from c. 1650 until 1990 - 390 years.

    If you are going to play a game about the type of union, until c. 1770 Ukraine was an autonomous Hetmanate and after 1917 it was briefly independent and then the Ukrainian SSR, so full union with Russia only lasted 147 years.

    Cool dude, doubling down on your goal post shifting. This is leading to a really productive conversation.

    There is more to it than formal political association.

    There is no independent Ukrainian culture of note, and the Ukrainian “language” is only a dialect.

    I could spend quite a lot of time insulting Norway and Denmark, but they’re genuinely distinct from Sweden.

    Not so with the Ukraine–it’s a 100% fake country and people who defend its existence are almost always wrongists. The country was fucking invented by WW1 German generals ffs.

    If you’re new to the concept of wrongism, it means you genuinely prefer being incorrect–generally for emotional reasons.

    And you’re treading into the dangerous terrain of wrongism.

    Don’t you want to be right?

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    • Replies: @AP

    There is no independent Ukrainian culture of note, and the Ukrainian “language” is only a dialect.
     
    So says a guy who apparently doesn't know much about Scandinavian history despite being a Scandinavian, who has never heard of Copernicus, etc.

    Ukrainian language is further from Russian than Norwegian, Danish, and Swedish are from each other, so if it is a dialect, so are each of those.

    The country was fucking invented by WW1 German generals ffs.
     
    So says a guy who apparently doesn't know much about Scandinavian history despite being a Scandinavian, who has never heard of Copernicus, etc.

    The main political party in western Ukraine was called a Ukrainian party and was around since the 1890s. World War I started after 1890s. Prior to that, there were Little Russian organizations and a movement, with a similar ideology, that was around since the late 1700s which is about when all the other modern nationalisms started. The Little Russians were very clear in stating they were not Great Russians (modern Russians) and were as much of a separate nation as Great Russians.
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  175. @for-the-record
    Schools are prisons for children and teachers are disgusting parasites who picked child abuse as a career. I cannot believe you would introduce schools in an an argument, and not only should you be ashamed of yourself but you must apologize to us all immediately.

    You really do have serious problems. Modern schools may be disastrous in many cases, I don't disagree with this. But schools can be a very positive thing, they certainly were in my day. I have great respect for (most) of my teachers, calling them "disgusting parasites" is truly sick.

    Obviously in your case schools must have had a very negative influence, but I think I can safely assert that this wasn't the case for most people here.

    Stockholm syndrome is a condition that causes hostages to develop a psychological alliance with their captors as a survival strategy during captivity.[1] These feelings, resulting from a bond formed between captor and captives during intimate time spent together, are generally considered irrational in light of the danger or risk endured by the victims. Generally speaking, Stockholm syndrome consists of “strong emotional ties that develop between two persons where one person intermittently harasses, beats, threatens, abuses, or intimidates the other.”[2]

    Read More
    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    Powerful take.
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  176. @Thorfinnsson
    Yes, Wal-Mart is great. Only a great people could create Wal-Mart.

    Your other comments on Swedes aren't wrong, but do bear in mind the country is quite small. On a per capita level the country's achievements are highly impressive, though as usual probably outdone by the Swiss.

    I read somewhere that Sweden has the largest military industrial complex in the world, per capita.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    Saab Bofors definitely produces quality military equipment for export.

    Peace.
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  177. @iffen
    I can’t even think of a single notable Polish achievement.

    Pierogis

    That and being instrumental in stopping the Turks at Vienna – that’s gotta count for something…

    Peace.

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    • Replies: @iffen
    stopping the Turks at Vienna

    A lot of good that did us, considering the current "invasions."
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  178. @AP

    I gave you one example
     
    And the example was a failure.

    Again - cause was natural event, not human action. Completely different from the Soviet artificial famine.

    You can find literally dozens more around Europe in the last few hundred years.

     

    How many dozens? And why "few hundred years?" Technology should prevent mass deaths in the middle of the 20th century in a way that it could not in 1700.

    You argue disingenuously
     
    Do not confuse me for yourself. In various discussions your dishonesty and arguing in bad faith have been revealed. It's a well-established pattern.

    called genocide-famine in Soviet Union in the 1930′s was similar to what European peasants had to live with for 1,000 years

     

    Example of your dishonesty. How often during a non-famine year did government (or noble) forces take all the food from the peasants on such a scale that millions of them died? We aren't talking about a catastrophic harvest during which it was every man for himself, and ones with the guns or swords survived while those without perished. A normal harvest, but someone decided to take all the grain and by this action to starve the peasants. Examples? Try to be honest for once, it is hard for you, I know.

    Irish has some elements of it. The potatoes died, which is why the Irish peasants starved. But there were other grains around them that could easily have been given to them and they weren't. For this situation to have been analogous to the Soviet one, it would have been normal potato harvest, but the Brits went around taking all the potatoes from Irish people's houses, forcing them to starve.

    Example of your dishonesty. How often during a non-famine year did government (or noble) forces take all the food from the peasants on such a scale that millions of them died?

    Savings could be achieved by directly reducing wages ….(such as) a reduction in the average weekly salary of hand weavers in Bolton from 33 shillings and 14 pennies in 1795 and 14 shillings in 1815 to 5 shillings and b pennies in 1829-1834.“* In fact, in the post-Napoleonic period there was a steady decline in the level of wages. But there is a physiological limit to such reduction, otherwise the workers had to die of hunger, what happened — 500 000 of the weavers died of starvation.”

    E. J. Hobsbawn’s “the Age of revolutions”

    Translation from Russian-I unfortunately have not seen
    English original. Because of this, I’m not sure about weavers, but there is no doubt that the industrial revolution in Western Europe was carried out monstrous methods, and cost orders of magnitude more lives than Stalin’s industrialization.

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    • Agree: dmitry
    • Replies: @AP

    E. J. Hobsbawn’s “the Age of revolutions”
     
    Claims of a Marxist.

    I haven't seen corroboration of mass deaths from starvation in England at that time.

    no doubt that the industrial revolution in Western Europe was carried out monstrous methods, and cost orders of magnitude more lives than Stalin’s industrialization.
     
    The reality about living conditions was different:

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2672390/

    From 1870 there was malnutrition, but not actual mass starvation.

    cost orders of magnitude more lives than Stalin’s industrialization
     
    So tens of millions died of starvation in England, France, Germany during industrialization? How has this secret been kept for so long?
    , @Greasy William

    I’m not sure about weavers, but there is no doubt that the industrial revolution in Western Europe was carried out monstrous methods, and cost orders of magnitude more lives than Stalin’s industrialization.
     
    What???!?!?!

    Why are you sticking up for the USSR?
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  179. @JL
    I read somewhere that Sweden has the largest military industrial complex in the world, per capita.

    Saab Bofors definitely produces quality military equipment for export.

    Peace.

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  180. AP says:
    @Thorfinnsson
    Cool dude, doubling down on your goal post shifting. This is leading to a really productive conversation.

    There is more to it than formal political association.

    There is no independent Ukrainian culture of note, and the Ukrainian "language" is only a dialect.

    I could spend quite a lot of time insulting Norway and Denmark, but they're genuinely distinct from Sweden.

    Not so with the Ukraine--it's a 100% fake country and people who defend its existence are almost always wrongists. The country was fucking invented by WW1 German generals ffs.

    If you're new to the concept of wrongism, it means you genuinely prefer being incorrect--generally for emotional reasons.

    And you're treading into the dangerous terrain of wrongism.

    Don't you want to be right?

    There is no independent Ukrainian culture of note, and the Ukrainian “language” is only a dialect.

    So says a guy who apparently doesn’t know much about Scandinavian history despite being a Scandinavian, who has never heard of Copernicus, etc.

    Ukrainian language is further from Russian than Norwegian, Danish, and Swedish are from each other, so if it is a dialect, so are each of those.

    The country was fucking invented by WW1 German generals ffs.

    So says a guy who apparently doesn’t know much about Scandinavian history despite being a Scandinavian, who has never heard of Copernicus, etc.

    The main political party in western Ukraine was called a Ukrainian party and was around since the 1890s. World War I started after 1890s. Prior to that, there were Little Russian organizations and a movement, with a similar ideology, that was around since the late 1700s which is about when all the other modern nationalisms started. The Little Russians were very clear in stating they were not Great Russians (modern Russians) and were as much of a separate nation as Great Russians.

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    • Agree: Mr. Hack
    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    So your argument in favor of the Ukraine is that some Ukrainians themselves are wrong and have wrong views?

    Powerful take.

    Official Poland tally so far:

    *Winged Hussars at the Battle of Vienna
    *Copernicus

    Good stuff, keep it up Poland fans.

    Can anyone justify the lesser countries I also attacked? What has Slovakia ever given the world?

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  181. AP says:
    @melanf

    Example of your dishonesty. How often during a non-famine year did government (or noble) forces take all the food from the peasants on such a scale that millions of them died?
     
    "Savings could be achieved by directly reducing wages ....(such as) a reduction in the average weekly salary of hand weavers in Bolton from 33 shillings and 14 pennies in 1795 and 14 shillings in 1815 to 5 shillings and b pennies in 1829-1834.“* In fact, in the post-Napoleonic period there was a steady decline in the level of wages. But there is a physiological limit to such reduction, otherwise the workers had to die of hunger, what happened — 500 000 of the weavers died of starvation."

    E. J. Hobsbawn's "the Age of revolutions"

    Translation from Russian-I unfortunately have not seen
    English original. Because of this, I'm not sure about weavers, but there is no doubt that the industrial revolution in Western Europe was carried out monstrous methods, and cost orders of magnitude more lives than Stalin's industrialization.

    E. J. Hobsbawn’s “the Age of revolutions”

    Claims of a Marxist.

    I haven’t seen corroboration of mass deaths from starvation in England at that time.

    no doubt that the industrial revolution in Western Europe was carried out monstrous methods, and cost orders of magnitude more lives than Stalin’s industrialization.

    The reality about living conditions was different:

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2672390/

    From 1870 there was malnutrition, but not actual mass starvation.

    cost orders of magnitude more lives than Stalin’s industrialization

    So tens of millions died of starvation in England, France, Germany during industrialization? How has this secret been kept for so long?

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    • Replies: @melanf

    From 1870 there was malnutrition, but not actual mass starvation.
     
    The industrial revolution began 100 years earlier. After 1870 there was no famine in Europe, but in the colonies hunger killed tens of millions.

    So tens of millions died of starvation in England, France, Germany during industrialization? How has this secret been kept for so long?
     
    How English common people were exploited in the era of the first steam engines, it's no secret - see for example the trilogy of Fernand Brodel about the Genesis of Capitalism. There is no doubt that the number of victims amounts to millions. But the main horror was" transferred " to colonies. 100 million people is a realistic estimate of the victims of European industrialization.
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  182. @Anonymous

    own genocide museum
     
    the post-modern religion of genocidianity needs to be dismatled, not forked, or it's 1066 all over again. (the bronze age stuff needs to be dismantled, for that matter, too.)

    1054, I meant.

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    • Replies: @German_reader
    Is that some sort of plea that Russia and the West should cooperate (not to repeat the split between Byzantium and Latin Europe), and that religion needs to go?
    Almost like esoteric writing...
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  183. @melanf

    Example of your dishonesty. How often during a non-famine year did government (or noble) forces take all the food from the peasants on such a scale that millions of them died?
     
    "Savings could be achieved by directly reducing wages ....(such as) a reduction in the average weekly salary of hand weavers in Bolton from 33 shillings and 14 pennies in 1795 and 14 shillings in 1815 to 5 shillings and b pennies in 1829-1834.“* In fact, in the post-Napoleonic period there was a steady decline in the level of wages. But there is a physiological limit to such reduction, otherwise the workers had to die of hunger, what happened — 500 000 of the weavers died of starvation."

    E. J. Hobsbawn's "the Age of revolutions"

    Translation from Russian-I unfortunately have not seen
    English original. Because of this, I'm not sure about weavers, but there is no doubt that the industrial revolution in Western Europe was carried out monstrous methods, and cost orders of magnitude more lives than Stalin's industrialization.

    I’m not sure about weavers, but there is no doubt that the industrial revolution in Western Europe was carried out monstrous methods, and cost orders of magnitude more lives than Stalin’s industrialization.

    What???!?!?!

    Why are you sticking up for the USSR?

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    • Replies: @melanf


    I’m not sure about weavers, but there is no doubt that the industrial revolution in Western Europe was carried out monstrous methods, and cost orders of magnitude more lives than Stalin’s industrialization.
     
    What???!?!?!
     
    A cruel tax and trade-usurious exploitation of the peasantry (in India) had caused widespread hunger . If 1825-1850. the famine twice struck the country and kill 0.4 million human lives, in 1850-1875 famine killed 5 million, in 1875-1900. — 26 million.”
    (ИСТОРИЯ ВОСТОКА IV Восток в новое время (конец XVIII — начало XX в.) Книга 2)

    This is just one episode. Modern industrial civilization is built on bones, and it was built by methods more monstrous than those that Stalin used.
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  184. @AP

    There is no independent Ukrainian culture of note, and the Ukrainian “language” is only a dialect.
     
    So says a guy who apparently doesn't know much about Scandinavian history despite being a Scandinavian, who has never heard of Copernicus, etc.

    Ukrainian language is further from Russian than Norwegian, Danish, and Swedish are from each other, so if it is a dialect, so are each of those.

    The country was fucking invented by WW1 German generals ffs.
     
    So says a guy who apparently doesn't know much about Scandinavian history despite being a Scandinavian, who has never heard of Copernicus, etc.

    The main political party in western Ukraine was called a Ukrainian party and was around since the 1890s. World War I started after 1890s. Prior to that, there were Little Russian organizations and a movement, with a similar ideology, that was around since the late 1700s which is about when all the other modern nationalisms started. The Little Russians were very clear in stating they were not Great Russians (modern Russians) and were as much of a separate nation as Great Russians.

    So your argument in favor of the Ukraine is that some Ukrainians themselves are wrong and have wrong views?

    Powerful take.

    Official Poland tally so far:

    *Winged Hussars at the Battle of Vienna
    *Copernicus

    Good stuff, keep it up Poland fans.

    Can anyone justify the lesser countries I also attacked? What has Slovakia ever given the world?

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    • Replies: @Simpleguest
    *Polonium
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  185. @anonymous
    1054, I meant.

    Is that some sort of plea that Russia and the West should cooperate (not to repeat the split between Byzantium and Latin Europe), and that religion needs to go?
    Almost like esoteric writing…

    Read More
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  186. @Thorfinnsson
    So your argument in favor of the Ukraine is that some Ukrainians themselves are wrong and have wrong views?

    Powerful take.

    Official Poland tally so far:

    *Winged Hussars at the Battle of Vienna
    *Copernicus

    Good stuff, keep it up Poland fans.

    Can anyone justify the lesser countries I also attacked? What has Slovakia ever given the world?

    *Polonium

    Read More
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  187. @Talha
    That and being instrumental in stopping the Turks at Vienna - that’s gotta count for something...

    Peace.

    stopping the Turks at Vienna

    A lot of good that did us, considering the current “invasions.”

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    • LOL: Talha
    • Replies: @Talha
    If you can’t beat ‘em, join ‘em.

    Multiple Bugs Bunny cartoons over many Saturdays drilled this principle into my head.

    But hey, you gotta give them credit, at least they aren’t trying to exacerbate the problem.

    Peace.
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  188. AP says:
    @melanf

    79 million in Germany,
     
    And as I remember 9 million Volksdeutsche

    108 million in the Russian part of the USSR
     
    of which 80% are Russians. But if from this number, remove the peasants who had no national consciousness (in contrast to the Germans whose brains have been washed for a long time)....

    But if you add central Asia, Ukrainian SSR....
     
    But if you add Finland, Romania, Hungary, Croatia, Slovakia...

    You mean newly-occupied territories such as Poland
     
    I can't say anything bad about the poles, but the economic power of occupied Poland worked for Germany. And since 1944, the Wehrmacht began to mobilize poles from the Western regions of Poland.. The occupied European countries worked willingly or unwillingly for Germany (with the exception of the Balkans).

    And how many French volunteers.
     
    The red army captured 22,000 French. But the main thing was of course the economic potential of France

    Vlasov had about 120,000 Russians fighting for Germany.
     
    No. Unlike European volunteers (who fought very well), the Vlasov army was formed from prisoners of war, seeking to avoid death in concentration camps. This "army" could not fight and did not fight, and was in fact a waste of resources. The number of this army you are as it seems greatly overstated

    The reality is that a large number of its own citizens willing to fight for the enemy
     
    If you're talking about Russians, it's a myth. People who want to fight for Germany was negligible. But if you are about such as the Crimean Tatars? Well, Stalin dealt with them (an event that Europe mourn to this day)

    79 million in Germany,

    And as I remember 9 million Volksdeutsche

    Then you can also count Russians outside Russia.

    108 million in the Russian part of the USSR

    of which 80% are Russians.

    Since the context here is view of self as part of the Russian political entity, many of the rest (Tatars, etc.) would also count. Chechens probably wouldn’t, but that’s a small percentage.

    But if you add central Asia, Ukrainian SSR….

    But if you add Finland, Romania, Hungary, Croatia, Slovakia…

    If you want to add allies, then UK and USA more than compensate for these countries.

    So you are back to a nation of 79 million slaughtering and almost defeating one of 170 million.

    Vlasov had about 120,000 Russians fighting for Germany.

    No. Unlike European volunteers (who fought very well), the Vlasov army was formed from prisoners of war, seeking to avoid death in concentration camps. This “army” could not fight and did not fight, and was in fact a waste of resources.

    Even better. So Germany was wasting resources on Vlasov, occupying all of Europe, fighting the British and the Americans, and still managed to kill 20+ million Soviets and nearly defeat the massive Soviet Union. Terrible Soviet performance.

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    • Replies: @melanf

    Then you can also count Russians outside Russia.
     
    If inside the borders of the Soviet Union - no doubt. If the Russians outside the Soviet Union, then these "non-Soviet" Russian pointless to consider, since Stalin could not use these people. While Hitler could use and used the European volksdeutche.

    However, all these manipulations will not change anything fundamentally. Well, let's count 100 million Russians (against 90 million Germans) - what will it change? Even if you add the Kazan Tatars, Mordva, Karel, etc it will not change anything. At least a quarter of these "Russians" consisted of peasants deprived of the national identity.


    But if you add Finland, Romania, Hungary, Croatia, Slovakia…
     
    If you want to add allies, then UK and USA more than compensate for these countries.
     
    Troops of the US and UK fought on the Eastern front in 1942?

    Even better. So Germany was wasting resources on Vlasov
     
    In 1944-45
    , @Philip Owen
    With a naval blockade that starved it of raw materials once Russia stopped supplying them and an Airforce that never recovered from the Battle of Britain.
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  189. @iffen
    stopping the Turks at Vienna

    A lot of good that did us, considering the current "invasions."

    If you can’t beat ‘em, join ‘em.

    Multiple Bugs Bunny cartoons over many Saturdays drilled this principle into my head.

    But hey, you gotta give them credit, at least they aren’t trying to exacerbate the problem.

    Peace.

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    • Replies: @iffen
    If you can’t beat ‘em, join ‘em.

    That's not funny, Talha, some things are not meant to be joked about.
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  190. @Talha
    If you can’t beat ‘em, join ‘em.

    Multiple Bugs Bunny cartoons over many Saturdays drilled this principle into my head.

    But hey, you gotta give them credit, at least they aren’t trying to exacerbate the problem.

    Peace.

    If you can’t beat ‘em, join ‘em.

    That’s not funny, Talha, some things are not meant to be joked about.

    Read More
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  191. @Greasy William

    I’m not sure about weavers, but there is no doubt that the industrial revolution in Western Europe was carried out monstrous methods, and cost orders of magnitude more lives than Stalin’s industrialization.
     
    What???!?!?!

    Why are you sticking up for the USSR?

    I’m not sure about weavers, but there is no doubt that the industrial revolution in Western Europe was carried out monstrous methods, and cost orders of magnitude more lives than Stalin’s industrialization.