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Open Thread 12: Orbularis Terribus
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* Reports just coming in that there has been a terrorist attack in Manchester.

Manchester a pretty well-off city, by the standards of the English North-West, though the city’s penchant for hedonism has given the city the lowest female life expectancy in England.

16% of the population are Muslims. Not as vibrant as Luton or Birmingham yet, but it’s getting there.

* New podcast with Robert Stark about automation and basic income.

Also, if you understand Russian, a reminder that I participate in a weekly Russian language podcast ROGPR. We are on our 14th episode as of this week.

* Vincent Law: Who Are Russia’s Black Hundreds?

This is a good article.

* Neo-Nazi converts to Islam, murders Neo-Nazi roommates for disrespecting Islam. TFW you take the WHITE SHARIA meme a bit too seriously.

Of course it happened in Florida. And of course the perpetrator is a ginger. The perfect memetic trifecta.

orb-of-power* #RiyadhSummit: “Three values to embrace to propel ourselves forward. They are tolerance, diversity and hope, and that’s what makes us human.”

They’ve learned the Davosi dialect well, I’ll give them that.

Anyhow, about Saudi Arabia: On the grand list of things to fault in Trump, continuing the bipartisan American tradition of cosying up to the House of Saud is one of the smallest and most irrelevant ones.

They basically subsidize the American military-industrial complex to the tune of several billions of dollars a year (I am pretty convinced the massive price gouging they tolerate is done on purpose and is a sort of bribe).

Frankly for that sort of money I think just about everyone would agree to say some bad things about Iran, turn a blind eye to Yemen, and worship a glowing orb for a day.

zuckerberg-new-vision

* I am not usually one for conspiracy theories, but the Seth Rich affair is very suspicious.

* Zuckerberg’s (new) vision via P.T. Carlo (also discovered this other article of his about the most loathsome neocon bugmen).

* Daniel Chieh’s comment on servitude in traditional China.

* About Ukraine’s banning of VK.com, Yandex, and basically half its Internet – will have separate post on that.

* Sinotriumph #1: China’s hyper-competitive schools are forcing parents to take IQ tests before accepting pupils (h/t whyvert)

Meanwhile, the US is still rehashing the same old Bell Curve debates, each one more farcical than the last.

Even as society lags, science continues to move forwards: James Thompson – IQ Brain Map. In the long run, Gnon always wins.

* Sinotriumph #2: The evolution of metros in China 1990-2020 (Peter Dovak).

china-metros

 
• Category: Miscellaneous • Tags: China, Open Thread, Terrorism 
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  1. This may be nitpicking, but what exactly is “Orbularis terribus” supposed to mean? I get that it refers to this bizarre orb picture from Trump’s Arabian trip, but it’s not supposed to be Latin, is it? Because it isn’t really.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
    It's a lame pun on the Eye of Terror in Warhammer 40k.

    I don't take Open Thread titles seriously. :)
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  2. @German_reader
    This may be nitpicking, but what exactly is "Orbularis terribus" supposed to mean? I get that it refers to this bizarre orb picture from Trump's Arabian trip, but it's not supposed to be Latin, is it? Because it isn't really.

    It’s a lame pun on the Eye of Terror in Warhammer 40k.

    I don’t take Open Thread titles seriously. :)

    Read More
    • Replies: @German_reader
    Ok, sorry...I've heard of Warhammer 40k (that's with Orcs waging endless war in space iirc?), but wasn't familiar with that :-)
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  3. @Anatoly Karlin
    It's a lame pun on the Eye of Terror in Warhammer 40k.

    I don't take Open Thread titles seriously. :)

    Ok, sorry…I’ve heard of Warhammer 40k (that’s with Orcs waging endless war in space iirc?), but wasn’t familiar with that :-)

    Read More
    • Replies: @Cagey Beast
    I love the hyperinflation that always happens in sci-fi. As soon as heard the name "Warhammer 40k" I knew that had to be about something set in the 41st millennium. Having a fictional universe only a few thousand years in the future would just be too lame.

    In the same way, aliens used to be able to just come from Mars, then it was distant solar systems, then galaxies and now they have to come from alternate universes. Having aliens visit us from only another part of this universe would be a huge bore, I guess.

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  4. Cagey Beast says: • Website
    @German_reader
    Ok, sorry...I've heard of Warhammer 40k (that's with Orcs waging endless war in space iirc?), but wasn't familiar with that :-)

    I love the hyperinflation that always happens in sci-fi. As soon as heard the name “Warhammer 40k” I knew that had to be about something set in the 41st millennium. Having a fictional universe only a few thousand years in the future would just be too lame.

    In the same way, aliens used to be able to just come from Mars, then it was distant solar systems, then galaxies and now they have to come from alternate universes. Having aliens visit us from only another part of this universe would be a huge bore, I guess.

    Read More
    • Replies: @iffen
    Having aliens visit us from only another part of this universe would be a huge bore, I guess.

    Not all that boring when they come from adjacent and nearby countries.
    , @Daniel Chieh
    Honestly, if Warhammer 40k was any less sensational and hyperbolic, I think it would lose a lot of its flavor. The entire "we are trapped in the same technology level for ten thousand years, and going backward" really sets the scene for an eternity without progress.

    At the moment, I could totally use that. Funny how the grimdark universe of Warhammer40k is a setting that in some ways, with its continued sense of the sacred and the meaningful human endeavour, is less horrific than modernity.
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  5. iffen says:
    @Cagey Beast
    I love the hyperinflation that always happens in sci-fi. As soon as heard the name "Warhammer 40k" I knew that had to be about something set in the 41st millennium. Having a fictional universe only a few thousand years in the future would just be too lame.

    In the same way, aliens used to be able to just come from Mars, then it was distant solar systems, then galaxies and now they have to come from alternate universes. Having aliens visit us from only another part of this universe would be a huge bore, I guess.

    Having aliens visit us from only another part of this universe would be a huge bore, I guess.

    Not all that boring when they come from adjacent and nearby countries.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Cagey Beast
    Yes, it's not Alien Versus Predator when they come across the Mexican border or the Med, it's First Alien, Then Predator.
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  6. Cagey Beast says: • Website
    @iffen
    Having aliens visit us from only another part of this universe would be a huge bore, I guess.

    Not all that boring when they come from adjacent and nearby countries.

    Yes, it’s not Alien Versus Predator when they come across the Mexican border or the Med, it’s First Alien, Then Predator.

    Read More
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  7. If you want to see another sinotriump, just compare the New York City subway to the Shanghai metro…

    Read More
    • Replies: @Dan Hayes
    aceofspades:

    The New York City subway system's growth was essentially over by the mid-1930s with the completion of the IND division.
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  8. Seems like China will be the location of the First Hive on Holy Terra.

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    • LOL: Anatoly Karlin
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  9. @Cagey Beast
    I love the hyperinflation that always happens in sci-fi. As soon as heard the name "Warhammer 40k" I knew that had to be about something set in the 41st millennium. Having a fictional universe only a few thousand years in the future would just be too lame.

    In the same way, aliens used to be able to just come from Mars, then it was distant solar systems, then galaxies and now they have to come from alternate universes. Having aliens visit us from only another part of this universe would be a huge bore, I guess.

    Honestly, if Warhammer 40k was any less sensational and hyperbolic, I think it would lose a lot of its flavor. The entire “we are trapped in the same technology level for ten thousand years, and going backward” really sets the scene for an eternity without progress.

    At the moment, I could totally use that. Funny how the grimdark universe of Warhammer40k is a setting that in some ways, with its continued sense of the sacred and the meaningful human endeavour, is less horrific than modernity.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
    Here is one of the best articles on the place of Warhammer 40k in Alt Right memetics which emphasizes that very theme.

    http://www.radixjournal.com/altright-archive/altright-archive/main/the-magazine/into-the-grim-darkness

    So, despite its terrors, the Warhammer galaxy calls forth instincts of glory, courage, faith, and transcendence. Warhammer allows the expression of those instincts of man that have been repressed by modern liberal morality. It is a galaxy where the raw, animalistic rage, and the deep yearning for transcendent courage, hidden deep within modernity’s civilized veneer, is given full expression; where prosperity and progress must be contextualized within the rise and fall of societies; and where peace, plenty and technology are not enough to keep humanity alive. Warhammer 40,000 may be a caricature, but it is a caricature of those aspects of humanity that seek a path beyond the confines of modern consumerism, egalitarianism and globalism.
     
    Irony: Though if you think about it, the Imperium of Man is a corrupt multi-kulti hell ruled in practice by a small clique of unknown and unaccountable Chekists. I suspect the Alt Right's infatuation with the God Emperor will be short-lasting!
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  10. Dan Hayes says:
    @aceofspades
    If you want to see another sinotriump, just compare the New York City subway to the Shanghai metro...

    aceofspades:

    The New York City subway system’s growth was essentially over by the mid-1930s with the completion of the IND division.

    Read More
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  11. It’s not even really a tragedy anymore. Just an inevitability. Everything will be back to normal tomorrow.

    Read More
    • Replies: @LondonBob
    Yes, I don't expect any great change from the incompetents who run things but the fact children were targeted seems to be raising the ire of the people who might just some day decide enough is enough.
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  12. 22pp22 says:

    My Russian is terrible.

    Do you have transcrfipts to your Russian podcasts? I can’t follow everything. I would be nice to read the bits I cannot understand aurally.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
    Unfortunately not.

    The actual technical work of editing is done by @strana_mechty. We have no budget so transcripts are unfeasible (unless machine generated, I suppose).
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  13. LondonBob says:
    @Greasy William
    It's not even really a tragedy anymore. Just an inevitability. Everything will be back to normal tomorrow.

    Yes, I don’t expect any great change from the incompetents who run things but the fact children were targeted seems to be raising the ire of the people who might just some day decide enough is enough.

    Read More
    • Replies: @neutral

    who might just some day decide enough is enough
     
    Considering that girls were pimped out for years in Rotherham and nobody cared tells me that this will never happen. I honestly believe that even if a thousand young girls were blown up every day in bombings most people will still prefer to support Muslims and diversity and other such things. And yes, I truly believe this, there is nothing that has shown me that these people could ever change their mindset. Their fear of being rejected by society by being called racist is greater than the fear of their children dying.
    , @Hippopotamusdrome


    the people who might just some day decide enough is enough

     

    It's getting near the weekend, and the monkeys are tired of fighting.
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  14. reiner Tor says: • Website

    The Manchester bombing was perhaps horrible, but the real tragedy would be if our multicultural values fell victim to it. The real victims are the millions of Muslims in the UK and elsewhere in Europe, who must now live in fear of a backlash.

    It’s still likelier to die of a brick falling on your head than of terrorism, which in any event is overwhelmingly dominated by the far right.

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  15. ussr andy says:

    the orb ceremony is some Eyes Wide Shut-type sh**. Spooky af.

    Read More
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  16. neutral says:
    @LondonBob
    Yes, I don't expect any great change from the incompetents who run things but the fact children were targeted seems to be raising the ire of the people who might just some day decide enough is enough.

    who might just some day decide enough is enough

    Considering that girls were pimped out for years in Rotherham and nobody cared tells me that this will never happen. I honestly believe that even if a thousand young girls were blown up every day in bombings most people will still prefer to support Muslims and diversity and other such things. And yes, I truly believe this, there is nothing that has shown me that these people could ever change their mindset. Their fear of being rejected by society by being called racist is greater than the fear of their children dying.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Cagey Beast
    This is correct and the Islamists know it. They know they just need to keep beating us until we love them because we act like slaves and women to them.
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  17. @Daniel Chieh
    Honestly, if Warhammer 40k was any less sensational and hyperbolic, I think it would lose a lot of its flavor. The entire "we are trapped in the same technology level for ten thousand years, and going backward" really sets the scene for an eternity without progress.

    At the moment, I could totally use that. Funny how the grimdark universe of Warhammer40k is a setting that in some ways, with its continued sense of the sacred and the meaningful human endeavour, is less horrific than modernity.

    Here is one of the best articles on the place of Warhammer 40k in Alt Right memetics which emphasizes that very theme.

    http://www.radixjournal.com/altright-archive/altright-archive/main/the-magazine/into-the-grim-darkness

    So, despite its terrors, the Warhammer galaxy calls forth instincts of glory, courage, faith, and transcendence. Warhammer allows the expression of those instincts of man that have been repressed by modern liberal morality. It is a galaxy where the raw, animalistic rage, and the deep yearning for transcendent courage, hidden deep within modernity’s civilized veneer, is given full expression; where prosperity and progress must be contextualized within the rise and fall of societies; and where peace, plenty and technology are not enough to keep humanity alive. Warhammer 40,000 may be a caricature, but it is a caricature of those aspects of humanity that seek a path beyond the confines of modern consumerism, egalitarianism and globalism.

    Irony: Though if you think about it, the Imperium of Man is a corrupt multi-kulti hell ruled in practice by a small clique of unknown and unaccountable Chekists. I suspect the Alt Right’s infatuation with the God Emperor will be short-lasting!

    Read More
    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    I would say that the degree of separation in the 40k universe is pretty significant such that the multi-kult is pretty ineffective in practice. While the elites are "cosmopolitan" to an extent beyond the evident court politics, the vast majority of the population probably are never exposed to the diversity of the Imperium beyond the occasional visits by Black Ships or tithe to the National Guard.

    But yes, its more or less a return to the past complaints about the aristocracy, where there's likely a cosmopolitan aristocratic core that's heavily divorced from local concerns. Much as the Russian court was speaking French, the Imperial aristocracy probably speaks High Gothic and may not even understand the language of the people they rule.
    , @Daniel Chieh
    Actually, relating to that, how popular is board gaming and the like in Russia? Is there still a strong notion that its a nerdy thing that is unbefitting of real men, or is it a significant subculture now?
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  18. @22pp22
    My Russian is terrible.

    Do you have transcrfipts to your Russian podcasts? I can't follow everything. I would be nice to read the bits I cannot understand aurally.

    Unfortunately not.

    The actual technical work of editing is done by @strana_mechty. We have no budget so transcripts are unfeasible (unless machine generated, I suppose).

    Read More
    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    Patreon goal, perhaps?
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  19. Cagey Beast says: • Website
    @neutral

    who might just some day decide enough is enough
     
    Considering that girls were pimped out for years in Rotherham and nobody cared tells me that this will never happen. I honestly believe that even if a thousand young girls were blown up every day in bombings most people will still prefer to support Muslims and diversity and other such things. And yes, I truly believe this, there is nothing that has shown me that these people could ever change their mindset. Their fear of being rejected by society by being called racist is greater than the fear of their children dying.

    This is correct and the Islamists know it. They know they just need to keep beating us until we love them because we act like slaves and women to them.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  20. This reminds me a lot of the 2nd Intifada in Israel.

    I know not everybody here is big fan of Israel so I’m not trying to say that there is any moral equivalence between the 2 situations, but there are political parallels.

    During the 2nd Intifada, everybody knew what it would take to stop terrorism: reconquering Yesha, destroying the PLO and re-establishing the civil administration. But not only would the Israel political/military (in Israel they are the same thing) elite never even consider doing any of those things, but the Israeli public itself would never support such actions either for reasons that I won’t go into here.

    In Europe the situation isn’t quite as grim. Despite what some commenters here apparently believe, we know from public opinion polls that Europeans don’t want more mass immigration. They aren’t going to rebel against their elites though, so they are going to do what Israelis did during the 2nd Intifada: learn to live with it. And you would be amazed what people will just learn to accept if their elites tell them that they have to.

    America on the other hand is a different story. This shit would never fly in America.

    Read More
    • Replies: @German_reader
    Israel did act though in the end, they built that wall and seem to have succeeded in reducing the Palestinian terror threat to manageable levels. The kind of attack seen during the 2nd intifada (e.g. bus bombings with mass casualties) doesn't really happen much nowadays unless I'm mistaken, the Palestinians are reduced to trying things like knife attacks or using cars as weapons.
    I don't know though what that means for Europe.
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  21. @Anatoly Karlin
    Unfortunately not.

    The actual technical work of editing is done by @strana_mechty. We have no budget so transcripts are unfeasible (unless machine generated, I suppose).

    Patreon goal, perhaps?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
    Thanks for the suggestion. We are considering going on Patreon once we have more of an audience.

    Monetizing Russian language content is harder than in the Anglosphere because the market is 10x smaller. OTOH, the fact that we pretty much are the only HBD-aware/Alt Right podcast in Russian might give us a first mover advantage.
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  22. @Daniel Chieh
    Patreon goal, perhaps?

    Thanks for the suggestion. We are considering going on Patreon once we have more of an audience.

    Monetizing Russian language content is harder than in the Anglosphere because the market is 10x smaller. OTOH, the fact that we pretty much are the only HBD-aware/Alt Right podcast in Russian might give us a first mover advantage.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Greasy William
    isn't everybody already HBD aware in Russia anyway? Don't think there will be much a market for alt right views in a culture where everybody is alt right by default.
    , @LondonBob
    First mover matters not, superior product always wins.
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  23. @Anatoly Karlin
    Thanks for the suggestion. We are considering going on Patreon once we have more of an audience.

    Monetizing Russian language content is harder than in the Anglosphere because the market is 10x smaller. OTOH, the fact that we pretty much are the only HBD-aware/Alt Right podcast in Russian might give us a first mover advantage.

    isn’t everybody already HBD aware in Russia anyway? Don’t think there will be much a market for alt right views in a culture where everybody is alt right by default.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    Despite the fantasies of Mr. Spencer, Russia is not in fact Alt-Right Utopia. Though, at least no one will kick you out of the banya for talking bad about gays and Chechens. You probably shouldn't let a Chechen hear you though, especially in that combination, or you might suddenly experience gender identity issues in your near future.
    , @Anatoly Karlin
    No, not at all.

    Russia is "alt right" in the sense that there is little to no "white guilt" of the sort that pervades SWPLs in the US and EUrope, but conversely, there is a pretty strong "friendship of peoples"/multi-nationality ideology that is likewise blank slatist, and if anything even more authoritarian and anti-freedom of speech in nature.

    Oh and unlike in the US, you could actually, potentially, go to prison for it. I highlighted a particularly ridiculous case here: http://www.unz.com/akarlin/antiracist-commissars/

    The joys of life in the Putlerreich! :)
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  24. @Greasy William
    isn't everybody already HBD aware in Russia anyway? Don't think there will be much a market for alt right views in a culture where everybody is alt right by default.

    Despite the fantasies of Mr. Spencer, Russia is not in fact Alt-Right Utopia. Though, at least no one will kick you out of the banya for talking bad about gays and Chechens. You probably shouldn’t let a Chechen hear you though, especially in that combination, or you might suddenly experience gender identity issues in your near future.

    Read More
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  25. Ilya says:

    Sinotriumph?

    Notice the marked acceleration after 2009 — the Great Financial Crisis. Credit rose to an astounding 40% of GDP at that time, making China today the most heavily indebted nation in the world. As demand in the West collapsed, the government told the banks to go full-retard with the funny money to avoid the instability that would result from the millions of unemployed heading back to the countryside.

    Easy come, easy go.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    Don't worry, China will experience a complete systemic and political collapse in 2013.
    , @5371
    China's GDP would be much larger than it is announced to be, if calculated in the same way as that of western countries. The real debt "burden" is correspondingly lighter.
    In related news, libertarians are idiots.
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  26. @Anatoly Karlin
    Here is one of the best articles on the place of Warhammer 40k in Alt Right memetics which emphasizes that very theme.

    http://www.radixjournal.com/altright-archive/altright-archive/main/the-magazine/into-the-grim-darkness

    So, despite its terrors, the Warhammer galaxy calls forth instincts of glory, courage, faith, and transcendence. Warhammer allows the expression of those instincts of man that have been repressed by modern liberal morality. It is a galaxy where the raw, animalistic rage, and the deep yearning for transcendent courage, hidden deep within modernity’s civilized veneer, is given full expression; where prosperity and progress must be contextualized within the rise and fall of societies; and where peace, plenty and technology are not enough to keep humanity alive. Warhammer 40,000 may be a caricature, but it is a caricature of those aspects of humanity that seek a path beyond the confines of modern consumerism, egalitarianism and globalism.
     
    Irony: Though if you think about it, the Imperium of Man is a corrupt multi-kulti hell ruled in practice by a small clique of unknown and unaccountable Chekists. I suspect the Alt Right's infatuation with the God Emperor will be short-lasting!

    I would say that the degree of separation in the 40k universe is pretty significant such that the multi-kult is pretty ineffective in practice. While the elites are “cosmopolitan” to an extent beyond the evident court politics, the vast majority of the population probably are never exposed to the diversity of the Imperium beyond the occasional visits by Black Ships or tithe to the National Guard.

    But yes, its more or less a return to the past complaints about the aristocracy, where there’s likely a cosmopolitan aristocratic core that’s heavily divorced from local concerns. Much as the Russian court was speaking French, the Imperial aristocracy probably speaks High Gothic and may not even understand the language of the people they rule.

    Read More
    • Replies: @melanf

    Much as the Russian court was speaking French
     
    It is a myth. The aristocracy were mostly fluent in French, but the primary language of the aristocracy (despite the myths) was Russian (in particular letters were for the most part written in Russian - http://new.rusarchives.ru/pik/events/pavel/kat/108_1.jpg )
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  27. @Anatoly Karlin
    Here is one of the best articles on the place of Warhammer 40k in Alt Right memetics which emphasizes that very theme.

    http://www.radixjournal.com/altright-archive/altright-archive/main/the-magazine/into-the-grim-darkness

    So, despite its terrors, the Warhammer galaxy calls forth instincts of glory, courage, faith, and transcendence. Warhammer allows the expression of those instincts of man that have been repressed by modern liberal morality. It is a galaxy where the raw, animalistic rage, and the deep yearning for transcendent courage, hidden deep within modernity’s civilized veneer, is given full expression; where prosperity and progress must be contextualized within the rise and fall of societies; and where peace, plenty and technology are not enough to keep humanity alive. Warhammer 40,000 may be a caricature, but it is a caricature of those aspects of humanity that seek a path beyond the confines of modern consumerism, egalitarianism and globalism.
     
    Irony: Though if you think about it, the Imperium of Man is a corrupt multi-kulti hell ruled in practice by a small clique of unknown and unaccountable Chekists. I suspect the Alt Right's infatuation with the God Emperor will be short-lasting!

    Actually, relating to that, how popular is board gaming and the like in Russia? Is there still a strong notion that its a nerdy thing that is unbefitting of real men, or is it a significant subculture now?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
    Not really in a position to judge - my knowledge of Warhammer 40k comes exclusively through browsing the Lexicanum and TV Tropes.

    That said, Russia's version of 4chan does have a WH section: https://2ch.hk/wh/
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  28. @Ilya
    Sinotriumph?

    Notice the marked acceleration after 2009 -- the Great Financial Crisis. Credit rose to an astounding 40% of GDP at that time, making China today the most heavily indebted nation in the world. As demand in the West collapsed, the government told the banks to go full-retard with the funny money to avoid the instability that would result from the millions of unemployed heading back to the countryside.

    Easy come, easy go.

    Don’t worry, China will experience a complete systemic and political collapse in 2013.

    Read More
    • LOL: reiner Tor
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  29. @Greasy William
    This reminds me a lot of the 2nd Intifada in Israel.

    I know not everybody here is big fan of Israel so I'm not trying to say that there is any moral equivalence between the 2 situations, but there are political parallels.

    During the 2nd Intifada, everybody knew what it would take to stop terrorism: reconquering Yesha, destroying the PLO and re-establishing the civil administration. But not only would the Israel political/military (in Israel they are the same thing) elite never even consider doing any of those things, but the Israeli public itself would never support such actions either for reasons that I won't go into here.

    In Europe the situation isn't quite as grim. Despite what some commenters here apparently believe, we know from public opinion polls that Europeans don't want more mass immigration. They aren't going to rebel against their elites though, so they are going to do what Israelis did during the 2nd Intifada: learn to live with it. And you would be amazed what people will just learn to accept if their elites tell them that they have to.

    America on the other hand is a different story. This shit would never fly in America.

    Israel did act though in the end, they built that wall and seem to have succeeded in reducing the Palestinian terror threat to manageable levels. The kind of attack seen during the 2nd intifada (e.g. bus bombings with mass casualties) doesn’t really happen much nowadays unless I’m mistaken, the Palestinians are reduced to trying things like knife attacks or using cars as weapons.
    I don’t know though what that means for Europe.

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  30. reiner Tor says: • Website

    I think people over here might be interested in this piece of good news: Trump is now officially supporting the Soros university in Hungary.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Cagey Beast
    You're being sarcastic, I hope.
    , @for-the-record

    Trump is now officially supporting the Soros university in Hungary.
     
    Realistically, I very much doubt that Trump is even aware of this or of the issues involved. Or Tillerson either, for that matter.
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  31. anonymous says: • Disclaimer

    “* Sinotriumph #1: China’s hyper-competitive schools are forcing parents to take IQ tests before accepting pupils (h/t whyvert)”
     
    This does not reflect an intelligent understanding of IQ and its implications in public policy by Chinese people. In fact all it show is that Chinese people are dumb and go overboard in believing a selective school will have tremendous effect in determining the course of their kid’s life.
     
    I will be truly impressed of China winning if in the poorest regions of China they can manage to feed their kids properly. In some remote parts of China (the southwest provinces) there’s still a lot of malnutrition among the young, obviously lowering IQ. It would probably cost them a few billion US dollars to solve that problem. So I think for them not to despite the minuscule relative cost makes it apparent that Chinese people don’t know how to intelligently apply awareness of IQ to social problems despite no barriers in the public discourse to discussing IQ and societal implications.
     
    Reminds me of that dumb panda guy who shows up whenever Chinese IQ is talked about. Hey dude why don’t you spend some energy on convincing your countrymen to feed their kids so that national IQ doesn’t drop rather than act that like general dumbass here?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    You know, a reasonable argument could be made to cultivate the talented tenth rather than focusing on the lowest tenth. Compassion is not, by default, always the correct decision.
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  32. @anonymous
    "* Sinotriumph #1: China’s hyper-competitive schools are forcing parents to take IQ tests before accepting pupils (h/t whyvert)"
     
    This does not reflect an intelligent understanding of IQ and its implications in public policy by Chinese people. In fact all it show is that Chinese people are dumb and go overboard in believing a selective school will have tremendous effect in determining the course of their kid's life.
     
    I will be truly impressed of China winning if in the poorest regions of China they can manage to feed their kids properly. In some remote parts of China (the southwest provinces) there's still a lot of malnutrition among the young, obviously lowering IQ. It would probably cost them a few billion US dollars to solve that problem. So I think for them not to despite the minuscule relative cost makes it apparent that Chinese people don't know how to intelligently apply awareness of IQ to social problems despite no barriers in the public discourse to discussing IQ and societal implications.
     
    Reminds me of that dumb panda guy who shows up whenever Chinese IQ is talked about. Hey dude why don't you spend some energy on convincing your countrymen to feed their kids so that national IQ doesn't drop rather than act that like general dumbass here?

    You know, a reasonable argument could be made to cultivate the talented tenth rather than focusing on the lowest tenth. Compassion is not, by default, always the correct decision.

    Read More
    • Replies: @anonymous
    I think you are confusing bottom tenth here, mixing up the first and third world.

    In the first world where all kids have enough to eat so lack of food in the first few years of life didn't retard IQ growth, when you refer to the bottom tenth you mean not investing so much in the kids who are too dumb to do algebra.

    But if it's the case like in parts of China where a whole region has malnourishment, then not feeding the kids properly is not bypassing the dumb tenth but wasting a whole region. Some kid with more to eat could have been a microbiologist rather than a mechanic due to effect of lowered IQ.

    That is why China's apparent IQ awareness far from winning shows lack of intellectual spark, no one in China with influence could figure out an intelligent policy based on IQ despite lack of restraint in discussion.
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  33. Cagey Beast says: • Website
    @reiner Tor
    I think people over here might be interested in this piece of good news: Trump is now officially supporting the Soros university in Hungary.

    You’re being sarcastic, I hope.

    Read More
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  34. melanf says:
    @Daniel Chieh
    I would say that the degree of separation in the 40k universe is pretty significant such that the multi-kult is pretty ineffective in practice. While the elites are "cosmopolitan" to an extent beyond the evident court politics, the vast majority of the population probably are never exposed to the diversity of the Imperium beyond the occasional visits by Black Ships or tithe to the National Guard.

    But yes, its more or less a return to the past complaints about the aristocracy, where there's likely a cosmopolitan aristocratic core that's heavily divorced from local concerns. Much as the Russian court was speaking French, the Imperial aristocracy probably speaks High Gothic and may not even understand the language of the people they rule.

    Much as the Russian court was speaking French

    It is a myth. The aristocracy were mostly fluent in French, but the primary language of the aristocracy (despite the myths) was Russian (in particular letters were for the most part written in Russian -)

    Read More
    • Replies: @ussr andy
    looks like he's way more comfortable writing in French though:
    http://new.rusarchives.ru/evants/exhibitions/pavel/108.shtml
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  35. anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @Daniel Chieh
    You know, a reasonable argument could be made to cultivate the talented tenth rather than focusing on the lowest tenth. Compassion is not, by default, always the correct decision.

    I think you are confusing bottom tenth here, mixing up the first and third world.

    In the first world where all kids have enough to eat so lack of food in the first few years of life didn’t retard IQ growth, when you refer to the bottom tenth you mean not investing so much in the kids who are too dumb to do algebra.

    But if it’s the case like in parts of China where a whole region has malnourishment, then not feeding the kids properly is not bypassing the dumb tenth but wasting a whole region. Some kid with more to eat could have been a microbiologist rather than a mechanic due to effect of lowered IQ.

    That is why China’s apparent IQ awareness far from winning shows lack of intellectual spark, no one in China with influence could figure out an intelligent policy based on IQ despite lack of restraint in discussion.

    Read More
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  36. @reiner Tor
    I think people over here might be interested in this piece of good news: Trump is now officially supporting the Soros university in Hungary.

    Trump is now officially supporting the Soros university in Hungary.

    Realistically, I very much doubt that Trump is even aware of this or of the issues involved. Or Tillerson either, for that matter.

    Read More
    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    Heather Nauert is a Trump appointee, and a former Fox News host.

    It's Trump's appointees who are doing this.

    , @reiner Tor
    By the way, Orbán was probably the only #1 leader of a country (definitely in the so-called "democratic world") who endorsed him already last summer. Perhaps the Czech president, too, but I think the Czechs were more circumspect than Orbán.

    Now Orbán's endorsement of him seems to have been a colossal mistake: he took a huge risk for nothing. (It seems unlikely that he will ever be invited to the White House anyway, perhaps not even for a photo op.) It probably wasn't worth much for Trump anyway, unlike his domestic supporters, who have also been abandoned by him in favor of his previous enemies...

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  37. @Greasy William
    isn't everybody already HBD aware in Russia anyway? Don't think there will be much a market for alt right views in a culture where everybody is alt right by default.

    No, not at all.

    Russia is “alt right” in the sense that there is little to no “white guilt” of the sort that pervades SWPLs in the US and EUrope, but conversely, there is a pretty strong “friendship of peoples”/multi-nationality ideology that is likewise blank slatist, and if anything even more authoritarian and anti-freedom of speech in nature.

    Oh and unlike in the US, you could actually, potentially, go to prison for it. I highlighted a particularly ridiculous case here: http://www.unz.com/akarlin/antiracist-commissars/

    The joys of life in the Putlerreich! :)

    Read More
    • Replies: @Greasy William
    So most Russians think that blacks are as intelligent as whites?
    , @anonymous
    An impression I have on russians is that while they are more into valuing their own people (ethnicity and culture) and not favoring even a considerable immigration of other peoples to their lands (their experience with Central Asians and Caucasian), they aren't rabid xenophobes and can tolerate anyone that's cleary the exception of their basic concerns.
    I remember from somewhere a video about a russian show in the 90s dealing with computer technology and one of the hosts were a black man. And there's still the soviet legacy of ethnic tolerance and egality.
    Although I still believe nowadays with the immigration issues in other countries (other than their own) and western hate of russian "authoritarianism" makes russians value their own much more than immigrants and seek self-preservation than inviting different people.
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  38. @Daniel Chieh
    Actually, relating to that, how popular is board gaming and the like in Russia? Is there still a strong notion that its a nerdy thing that is unbefitting of real men, or is it a significant subculture now?

    Not really in a position to judge – my knowledge of Warhammer 40k comes exclusively through browsing the Lexicanum and TV Tropes.

    That said, Russia’s version of 4chan does have a WH section: https://2ch.hk/wh/

    Read More
    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    You should check out First and Only by Dan Abnett sometime. Its a great book, captures the spirit of Warhammer40k immeasurably.
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  39. ussr andy says:
    @melanf

    Much as the Russian court was speaking French
     
    It is a myth. The aristocracy were mostly fluent in French, but the primary language of the aristocracy (despite the myths) was Russian (in particular letters were for the most part written in Russian - http://new.rusarchives.ru/pik/events/pavel/kat/108_1.jpg )

    looks like he’s way more comfortable writing in French though:

    http://new.rusarchives.ru/evants/exhibitions/pavel/108.shtml

    Read More
    • Replies: @Cagey Beast
    That looks like a young woman's handwriting in the French. It's nice, tidy penmanship, apart from the person repeatedly miscalculating how much space would be needed to complete a word at the end of the line. I'm guessing the one in Russian was written in one draft while the other one was given as a task to a daughter. The last line doesn't quite make sense either: "Please do me the pleasure of sending me the journey of the Perouse [sp?]", unless that's the title of a novel.
    , @melanf

    looks like he’s way more comfortable writing in French though:
     
    This historical person - it is possible (but Russian language he knew). However, the majority of letters of the highest aristocracy, wrote in Russian (Isabel de Madariaga, "Russia in the Age of Catherine the Great" ).
    You may recall the literature - among the highest aristocracy were brilliant writers and poets who wrote in Russian (For example, count A. K. Tolstoy http://artchallenge.me/painters/38/41.jpg)
    , but no French-speaking writers and poets (at least famous)
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  40. @Anatoly Karlin
    Not really in a position to judge - my knowledge of Warhammer 40k comes exclusively through browsing the Lexicanum and TV Tropes.

    That said, Russia's version of 4chan does have a WH section: https://2ch.hk/wh/

    You should check out First and Only by Dan Abnett sometime. Its a great book, captures the spirit of Warhammer40k immeasurably.

    Read More
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  41. Cagey Beast says: • Website
    @ussr andy
    looks like he's way more comfortable writing in French though:
    http://new.rusarchives.ru/evants/exhibitions/pavel/108.shtml

    That looks like a young woman’s handwriting in the French. It’s nice, tidy penmanship, apart from the person repeatedly miscalculating how much space would be needed to complete a word at the end of the line. I’m guessing the one in Russian was written in one draft while the other one was given as a task to a daughter. The last line doesn’t quite make sense either: “Please do me the pleasure of sending me the journey of the Perouse [sp?]“, unless that’s the title of a novel.

    Read More
    • Replies: @ussr andy
    yeah, I guess you're right. I thought both were in his hand, but the difference is too striking.

    unless that’s the title of a novel.
     
    it could be some book about this: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean-François_de_Galaup,_comte_de_Lapérouse#Scientific_expedition_around_the_world
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  42. LondonBob says:
    @Anatoly Karlin
    Thanks for the suggestion. We are considering going on Patreon once we have more of an audience.

    Monetizing Russian language content is harder than in the Anglosphere because the market is 10x smaller. OTOH, the fact that we pretty much are the only HBD-aware/Alt Right podcast in Russian might give us a first mover advantage.

    First mover matters not, superior product always wins.

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  43. @Anatoly Karlin
    No, not at all.

    Russia is "alt right" in the sense that there is little to no "white guilt" of the sort that pervades SWPLs in the US and EUrope, but conversely, there is a pretty strong "friendship of peoples"/multi-nationality ideology that is likewise blank slatist, and if anything even more authoritarian and anti-freedom of speech in nature.

    Oh and unlike in the US, you could actually, potentially, go to prison for it. I highlighted a particularly ridiculous case here: http://www.unz.com/akarlin/antiracist-commissars/

    The joys of life in the Putlerreich! :)

    So most Russians think that blacks are as intelligent as whites?

    Read More
    • Replies: @melanf

    So most Russians think that blacks are as intelligent as whites?
     
    Most Russians don't think about it at all, since the issue for Russia is not relevant. But there is a prevailing opinion that the people of Central Asia/Islamic part of the Caucasus more stupid than the "European" white. But it's not racist (it is not typical for Russia) , but the idea of the backwardness of culture in these regions (such ideas are freely discussed, and sometimes even "promoted" in movies). The Jews and Koreans in General opinion to the contrary are considered more intelligent.


    Also widespread ideas about the imperfection of women's intelligence. A week ago at my University was among the students a fun discussion on a topic the hypothetical ban of higher education for women. Girls (approximately half of the group) argued that intelligence is not dependent on sex, and the guys claimed that there are no women among the outstanding scientists, so no need to spend money on education for stupid by nature women.

    , @Andrei Martyanov

    So most Russians think that blacks are as intelligent as whites?
     
    No. But very many would judge the character first--on merit. There was (maybe still is) a black dude who was a mayor of some Russian provincial Raionnyi Centr (Distric Center). People loved him, I believe he was reelected not for once.

    http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=130102777

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  44. ussr andy says:
    @Cagey Beast
    That looks like a young woman's handwriting in the French. It's nice, tidy penmanship, apart from the person repeatedly miscalculating how much space would be needed to complete a word at the end of the line. I'm guessing the one in Russian was written in one draft while the other one was given as a task to a daughter. The last line doesn't quite make sense either: "Please do me the pleasure of sending me the journey of the Perouse [sp?]", unless that's the title of a novel.

    yeah, I guess you’re right. I thought both were in his hand, but the difference is too striking.

    unless that’s the title of a novel.

    it could be some book about this: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean-François_de_Galaup,_comte_de_Lapérouse#Scientific_expedition_around_the_world

    Read More
    • Replies: @Cagey Beast
    it could be some book about this: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean-François_de_Galaup,_comte_de_Lapérouse#Scientific_expedition_around_the_world

    That's probably it.
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  45. I’m with Dalrymple on this one, there is a root cause to the problem, and that root cause is Wahabism.

    https://www.city-journal.org/html/wahhabi-threat-15210.html

    Wahabism should be confronted, but judging by Trump’s recent Saudi adventure, it won’t be.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Hippopotamusdrome


    that root cause is Wahabism

     

    Root cause is immigration.


    Wahabism should be confronted

     

    You don't have to confront it if it is far away in another country.
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  46. Cagey Beast says: • Website
    @ussr andy
    yeah, I guess you're right. I thought both were in his hand, but the difference is too striking.

    unless that’s the title of a novel.
     
    it could be some book about this: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean-François_de_Galaup,_comte_de_Lapérouse#Scientific_expedition_around_the_world

    it could be some book about this: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean-François_de_Galaup,_comte_de_Lapérouse#Scientific_expedition_around_the_world

    That’s probably it.

    Read More
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  47. melanf says:
    @ussr andy
    looks like he's way more comfortable writing in French though:
    http://new.rusarchives.ru/evants/exhibitions/pavel/108.shtml

    looks like he’s way more comfortable writing in French though:

    This historical person – it is possible (but Russian language he knew). However, the majority of letters of the highest aristocracy, wrote in Russian (Isabel de Madariaga, “Russia in the Age of Catherine the Great” ).
    You may recall the literature – among the highest aristocracy were brilliant writers and poets who wrote in Russian (For example, count A. K. Tolstoy http://artchallenge.me/painters/38/41.jpg)
    , but no French-speaking writers and poets (at least famous)

    Read More
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  48. melanf says:
    @Greasy William
    So most Russians think that blacks are as intelligent as whites?

    So most Russians think that blacks are as intelligent as whites?

    Most Russians don’t think about it at all, since the issue for Russia is not relevant. But there is a prevailing opinion that the people of Central Asia/Islamic part of the Caucasus more stupid than the “European” white. But it’s not racist (it is not typical for Russia) , but the idea of the backwardness of culture in these regions (such ideas are freely discussed, and sometimes even “promoted” in movies). The Jews and Koreans in General opinion to the contrary are considered more intelligent.

    Also widespread ideas about the imperfection of women’s intelligence. A week ago at my University was among the students a fun discussion on a topic the hypothetical ban of higher education for women. Girls (approximately half of the group) argued that intelligence is not dependent on sex, and the guys claimed that there are no women among the outstanding scientists, so no need to spend money on education for stupid by nature women.

    Read More
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  49. reiner Tor says: • Website
    @for-the-record

    Trump is now officially supporting the Soros university in Hungary.
     
    Realistically, I very much doubt that Trump is even aware of this or of the issues involved. Or Tillerson either, for that matter.

    Heather Nauert is a Trump appointee, and a former Fox News host.

    It’s Trump’s appointees who are doing this.

    Read More
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  50. 5371 says:
    @Ilya
    Sinotriumph?

    Notice the marked acceleration after 2009 -- the Great Financial Crisis. Credit rose to an astounding 40% of GDP at that time, making China today the most heavily indebted nation in the world. As demand in the West collapsed, the government told the banks to go full-retard with the funny money to avoid the instability that would result from the millions of unemployed heading back to the countryside.

    Easy come, easy go.

    China’s GDP would be much larger than it is announced to be, if calculated in the same way as that of western countries. The real debt “burden” is correspondingly lighter.
    In related news, libertarians are idiots.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    The gospel of Gordan Chang must continue!
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  51. reiner Tor says: • Website
    @for-the-record

    Trump is now officially supporting the Soros university in Hungary.
     
    Realistically, I very much doubt that Trump is even aware of this or of the issues involved. Or Tillerson either, for that matter.

    By the way, Orbán was probably the only #1 leader of a country (definitely in the so-called “democratic world”) who endorsed him already last summer. Perhaps the Czech president, too, but I think the Czechs were more circumspect than Orbán.

    Now Orbán’s endorsement of him seems to have been a colossal mistake: he took a huge risk for nothing. (It seems unlikely that he will ever be invited to the White House anyway, perhaps not even for a photo op.) It probably wasn’t worth much for Trump anyway, unlike his domestic supporters, who have also been abandoned by him in favor of his previous enemies…

    Read More
    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    Today at the NATO summit Orbán and Trump were seen talking and laughing together. We'll see if anything substantial comes out of this. So far still it seems to have been a mistake.
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  52. Talha says:

    As the details emerge – it is almost, down the line straight up as Mr. Oliver Roy has pointed out after profiling 100 terrorists or Daesh fighters from the West*. Here are some details from this morning on the suspect (beyond the usual people saying things like – he was a quiet guy, I wouldn’t suspect…:
    “The ‘ordinary’ teenager posing in the new photographs was described as ‘quiet’ and ‘not the sort of kid that stood out’ and showed little interest in religion, friends told MailOnline, adding that he even smoked cannabis….One neighbour and schoolmate claimed: ‘None of them were your typical Salafis or religious or extremists. No religion was involved,’ a schoolmate said. A year ago, all of this changed when the killer started hanging out with ‘people I hadn’t seen before.’…”
    “The imam of Didsbury Mosque, Mohammed Saeed revealed Salman stopped going to the mosque in 2015 as he objected to anti- ISIS comments. He said: ‘Salman used to come to the mosque occasionally, he wasn’t particularly friendly towards me because he didn’t like my anti-ISIS sermons. He didn’t like what I was saying and showed me the face of hate. He came to the mosque less and less after that.’

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4536624/Salman-Abedi-known-security-services-point.html

    And again:
    “Two people who knew Salman Abedi are said to have called the police counter-terrorism hotline five years ago to raise concerns that he thought ‘being a suicide bomber was OK’.
    And a senior US intelligence official has claimed that members of his own family had warned police that he was ‘dangerous’…It is understood that Abedi was ‘known’ to the Security Services through his associations to those linked to terrorism in Manchester’s Libyan community…According to NBC, a senior US intelligence official said Abedi’s family had warned police that he was ‘dangerous’. He was identified after the attack by his bankcard and had used a ‘big and sophisticated bomb’ using materials not widely available in Britain.”

    This is happening way too often that the families (and acquaintances) are warning the security apparatus and somehow the guy pulls off his act. This cannot be coincidence. He was reported by his parents and then came back from Libya, visiting a territory known to be inhabited by Daesh. If there is no collusion from the security apparatus, then there is criminal negligence at this point – at least 5 or more people should be losing their jobs immediately.

    Peace.

    *Again, match up the profile – he fits right into the archetype:
    “Another characteristic that all western countries have in common is that radicals are almost all ‘born-again’ Muslims who, after living a highly secular life – frequenting clubs, drinking alcohol, involvement in petty crime – suddenly renew their religious observance, either individually or in the context of a small group. The Abdeslam brothers ran a Brussels bar and went out to nightclubs in the months preceding the Bataclan shooting. Most move into action in the months following their religious ‘reconversion’ or ‘conversion’, but have usually already exhibited signs of radicalisation…..Their dress habits also conform to those of today’s youth: brands, baseball caps, hoods, in other words streetwear, and not even of the Islamic variety….Their relationship to the local mosque was ambivalent: either they attended episodically, or they were expelled for having shown disrespect for the local imam….To summarise: the typical radical is a young, second-generation immigrant or convert, very often involved in episodes of petty crime, with practically no religious education, but having a rapid and recent trajectory of conversion/reconversion, more often in the framework of a group of friends or over the internet than in the context of a mosque. The embrace of religion is rarely kept secret, but rather is exhibited, but it does not necessarily correspond to immersion in religious practice….As we have seen, jihadis do not descend into violence after poring over sacred texts. They do not have the necessary religious culture – and, above all, care little about having one. They do not become radicals because they have misread the texts or because they have been manipulated. They are radicals because they choose to be, because only radicalism appeals to them. No matter what database is taken as a reference, the paucity of religious knowledge among jihadis is glaring.”

    https://www.theguardian.com/news/2017/apr/13/who-are-the-new-jihadis

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    • Replies: @Talha
    Also...
    "Younger brother of Manchester bomber was ‘planning to stage an attack’ in Libya, authorities say."
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/british-prime-minister-raises-nations-threat-level-saying-another-attackmay-be-imminent/2017/05/24/dd5367e8-3fec-11e7-b29f-f40ffced2ddb_story.html?utm_term=.7b2206158cf0

    And what did Mr. Roy say?
    "The group’s membership is always the same: brothers, childhood friends, acquaintances from prison, sometimes from a training camp. The number of sets of siblings found is also remarkable.
    This over-representation of siblings does not occur in any other context of radicalisation
    , whether on the extreme left or Islamist groups. It highlights the significance of the generational dimension of radicalisation."

    , @EL Dato

    If there is no collusion from the security apparatus, then there is criminal negligence at this point – at least 5 or more people should be losing their jobs immediately.
     
    Hmmm......

    https://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/11/30/investigatory_powers_act_backdoors/

    Among the many unpleasant things in the Investigatory Powers Act that was officially signed into law this week, one that has not gained as much attention is the apparent ability for the UK government to undermine encryption and demand surveillance backdoors.

     

    https://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/05/04/uk_bulk_surveillance_powers_draft/

    The UK government has secretly drawn up more details of its new bulk surveillance powers – awarding itself the ability to monitor Brits' live communications, and insert encryption backdoors by the backdoor.

     

    https://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/05/25/uk_to_push_antiencryption_laws_after_election/

    It was suspected that the government intended to rush the paper past Parliament in order to get it enacted, but widespread public debate over the matter made that approach increasing untenable.

    Unfortunately the tragedy in Manchester may yet provide the means by which the government can force the issue into law. Despite widespread anger and frustration with the Conservative government over its approach to Brexit, as well as a raft of unpopular measures included in its manifesto, the party is still expected to win a majority in the House of Commons and so be in a position to push the anti-encryption laws forward.
     
    This is either an instance of "never let a good crisis go to waste" or "implement plan sixty-six", not sure which.

    Also, what is this about? Don't tell me this is "negligence". If something is "leaked to the NYT" it happens 100% on purpose.

    http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-40040210

    Home Secretary Amber Rudd had said she was "irritated" by the disclosure of Abedi's identity against the UK's wishes and had warned Washington "it should not happen again".

    However, the pictures of debris - which appear to show bloodstained fragments from the bomb and the backpack used to conceal it - were subsequently leaked to the New York Times, prompting an angry response from within Whitehall and from UK police chiefs.
     
    , @iffen
    This is happening way too often that the families (and acquaintances) are warning the security apparatus and somehow the guy pulls off his act. This cannot be coincidence. He was reported by his parents and then came back from Libya, visiting a territory known to be inhabited by Daesh. If there is no collusion from the security apparatus, then there is criminal negligence at this point – at least 5 or more people should be losing their jobs immediately.

    Snitched on by associates, family and community, interviewed and "surveilled" by authorities, went to ME for terrorist training and he still pulls it off.

    Makes you wonder if the conspiracy wingnuts are not nuts after all.
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  53. @5371
    China's GDP would be much larger than it is announced to be, if calculated in the same way as that of western countries. The real debt "burden" is correspondingly lighter.
    In related news, libertarians are idiots.

    The gospel of Gordan Chang must continue!

    Read More
    • Replies: @Dan Hayes
    Daniel Chieh:

    For literally years I have been listening to Chang's predictions/announcements on the imminent financial collapse of China (particularly on the John Bachelor radio program).

    It still has not happened!
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  54. Talha says:
    @Talha
    As the details emerge - it is almost, down the line straight up as Mr. Oliver Roy has pointed out after profiling 100 terrorists or Daesh fighters from the West*. Here are some details from this morning on the suspect (beyond the usual people saying things like - he was a quiet guy, I wouldn't suspect...:
    "The 'ordinary' teenager posing in the new photographs was described as 'quiet' and 'not the sort of kid that stood out' and showed little interest in religion, friends told MailOnline, adding that he even smoked cannabis....One neighbour and schoolmate claimed: 'None of them were your typical Salafis or religious or extremists. No religion was involved,' a schoolmate said. A year ago, all of this changed when the killer started hanging out with 'people I hadn't seen before.'..."
    "The imam of Didsbury Mosque, Mohammed Saeed revealed Salman stopped going to the mosque in 2015 as he objected to anti- ISIS comments. He said: 'Salman used to come to the mosque occasionally, he wasn't particularly friendly towards me because he didn't like my anti-ISIS sermons. He didn't like what I was saying and showed me the face of hate. He came to the mosque less and less after that.'

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4536624/Salman-Abedi-known-security-services-point.html

    And again:
    "Two people who knew Salman Abedi are said to have called the police counter-terrorism hotline five years ago to raise concerns that he thought 'being a suicide bomber was OK'.
    And a senior US intelligence official has claimed that members of his own family had warned police that he was 'dangerous'...It is understood that Abedi was ‘known’ to the Security Services through his associations to those linked to terrorism in Manchester’s Libyan community...According to NBC, a senior US intelligence official said Abedi's family had warned police that he was 'dangerous'. He was identified after the attack by his bankcard and had used a 'big and sophisticated bomb' using materials not widely available in Britain."

    This is happening way too often that the families (and acquaintances) are warning the security apparatus and somehow the guy pulls off his act. This cannot be coincidence. He was reported by his parents and then came back from Libya, visiting a territory known to be inhabited by Daesh. If there is no collusion from the security apparatus, then there is criminal negligence at this point - at least 5 or more people should be losing their jobs immediately.

    Peace.

    *Again, match up the profile - he fits right into the archetype:
    "Another characteristic that all western countries have in common is that radicals are almost all 'born-again' Muslims who, after living a highly secular life – frequenting clubs, drinking alcohol, involvement in petty crime – suddenly renew their religious observance, either individually or in the context of a small group. The Abdeslam brothers ran a Brussels bar and went out to nightclubs in the months preceding the Bataclan shooting. Most move into action in the months following their religious 'reconversion' or 'conversion', but have usually already exhibited signs of radicalisation.....Their dress habits also conform to those of today’s youth: brands, baseball caps, hoods, in other words streetwear, and not even of the Islamic variety....Their relationship to the local mosque was ambivalent: either they attended episodically, or they were expelled for having shown disrespect for the local imam….To summarise: the typical radical is a young, second-generation immigrant or convert, very often involved in episodes of petty crime, with practically no religious education, but having a rapid and recent trajectory of conversion/reconversion, more often in the framework of a group of friends or over the internet than in the context of a mosque. The embrace of religion is rarely kept secret, but rather is exhibited, but it does not necessarily correspond to immersion in religious practice….As we have seen, jihadis do not descend into violence after poring over sacred texts. They do not have the necessary religious culture – and, above all, care little about having one. They do not become radicals because they have misread the texts or because they have been manipulated. They are radicals because they choose to be, because only radicalism appeals to them. No matter what database is taken as a reference, the paucity of religious knowledge among jihadis is glaring.”
    https://www.theguardian.com/news/2017/apr/13/who-are-the-new-jihadis

    Also…
    “Younger brother of Manchester bomber was ‘planning to stage an attack’ in Libya, authorities say.”

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/british-prime-minister-raises-nations-threat-level-saying-another-attackmay-be-imminent/2017/05/24/dd5367e8-3fec-11e7-b29f-f40ffced2ddb_story.html?utm_term=.7b2206158cf0

    And what did Mr. Roy say?
    “The group’s membership is always the same: brothers, childhood friends, acquaintances from prison, sometimes from a training camp. The number of sets of siblings found is also remarkable.
    This over-representation of siblings does not occur in any other context of radicalisation
    , whether on the extreme left or Islamist groups. It highlights the significance of the generational dimension of radicalisation.”

    Read More
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  55. reiner Tor says: • Website

    Based Taleb strikes again. Richard Spencer would be another good example of this:

    This method –of hitting you where they think it hurts –implies hitting people around you who are more vulnerable than you. General Motors, in the campaign against Ralph Nader, desperate to stop him, resorted to harassing Rose Nader, his mother, calling her at three in the morning –in the days when it was hard to trace a telephone call. Clearly it was meant to make Ralph Nader feel guilty of harming his own mother.

    Read More
    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    Though Taleb's suggestion is quite mild. A mere financial penalty for the family.
    , @German_reader
    iirc the Israelis do things like demolishing the houses of relatives of suicide bombers. Certainly somewhat disturbing, and not in line with mainstream Western thought today, but if Europe ever reaches the stage of something like the 2nd intifada in Israel, who knows what measures might be adopted?
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  56. Dan Hayes says:
    @Daniel Chieh
    The gospel of Gordan Chang must continue!

    Daniel Chieh:

    For literally years I have been listening to Chang’s predictions/announcements on the imminent financial collapse of China (particularly on the John Bachelor radio program).

    It still has not happened!

    Read More
    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    He makes good money telling people what they want to hear. Within China, he's often sarcastically given awards for his "special work for the 3rd Rocket Division" or something like that, for "deluding the West into underestimating the threat from China."

    Its not going to happen. China has many, many problems but a collapse is not in the cards.
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  57. reiner Tor says: • Website
    @reiner Tor
    Based Taleb strikes again. Richard Spencer would be another good example of this:

    This method –of hitting you where they think it hurts –implies hitting people around you who are more vulnerable than you. General Motors, in the campaign against Ralph Nader, desperate to stop him, resorted to harassing Rose Nader, his mother, calling her at three in the morning –in the days when it was hard to trace a telephone call. Clearly it was meant to make Ralph Nader feel guilty of harming his own mother.
     

    Though Taleb’s suggestion is quite mild. A mere financial penalty for the family.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    Hey rT,

    Taleb poses the question:
    "Can someone punish the family for crimes of an individual?"

    Well, the door swings both ways. The extremists have answered this question:
    "Can someone punish citizens for crimes of a government?"

    Welcome to utilitarian calculus. Is it acceptable for these bombers to target the families of US/UK politicians that lied their countries into war and thus destroyed hundreds of thousands of lives in the ME?

    Answer this question and you have answered the first. Unless; one rule for you, another rule for me.

    Peace.

    Note: Keep in mind, in this case, the family actually reported their son as dangerous to the authorities.

    , @Cagey Beast
    The police and immigration services should use existing laws intensely on the neighbours, friends and relations of suicide bombers and the like. Make every small time criminal worry that his drug dealing, people smuggling or bootleg fashion business is endangered by the Islamist nutcase living down the hall. If that doesn't work, the next stage is far nastier. I wouldn't recommend it:

    The Paris massacre of 1961 occurred on 17 October 1961, during the Algerian War (1954–62). Under orders from the head of the Parisian police, Maurice Papon, the French National Police attacked a demonstration of some 30,000 pro-National Liberation Front (FLN) Algerians. Two months before, the FLN had decided to increase its bombing in France and to resume the campaign against both pro-France Algerians and the rival Algerian nationalist organization, the Algerian National Movement in France. After 37 years of denial, in 1998 the French government acknowledged 40 deaths, although there are estimates of 100 to 300 victims.
     
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_massacre_of_1961
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  58. @Dan Hayes
    Daniel Chieh:

    For literally years I have been listening to Chang's predictions/announcements on the imminent financial collapse of China (particularly on the John Bachelor radio program).

    It still has not happened!

    He makes good money telling people what they want to hear. Within China, he’s often sarcastically given awards for his “special work for the 3rd Rocket Division” or something like that, for “deluding the West into underestimating the threat from China.”

    Its not going to happen. China has many, many problems but a collapse is not in the cards.

    Read More
    • Agree: Dan Hayes
    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
    Add Ambrose Evans-Pritchard to that list.

    https://twitter.com/akarlin88/status/332654542665682945

    Also George Friedman, of course.

    Though in fairness those other two have other accomplishments up their sleeves apart from being wrong about China.
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  59. @Greasy William
    So most Russians think that blacks are as intelligent as whites?

    So most Russians think that blacks are as intelligent as whites?

    No. But very many would judge the character first–on merit. There was (maybe still is) a black dude who was a mayor of some Russian provincial Raionnyi Centr (Distric Center). People loved him, I believe he was reelected not for once.

    http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=130102777

    Read More
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  60. @reiner Tor
    Based Taleb strikes again. Richard Spencer would be another good example of this:

    This method –of hitting you where they think it hurts –implies hitting people around you who are more vulnerable than you. General Motors, in the campaign against Ralph Nader, desperate to stop him, resorted to harassing Rose Nader, his mother, calling her at three in the morning –in the days when it was hard to trace a telephone call. Clearly it was meant to make Ralph Nader feel guilty of harming his own mother.
     

    iirc the Israelis do things like demolishing the houses of relatives of suicide bombers. Certainly somewhat disturbing, and not in line with mainstream Western thought today, but if Europe ever reaches the stage of something like the 2nd intifada in Israel, who knows what measures might be adopted?

    Read More
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  61. Talha says:
    @reiner Tor
    Though Taleb's suggestion is quite mild. A mere financial penalty for the family.

    Hey rT,

    Taleb poses the question:
    “Can someone punish the family for crimes of an individual?”

    Well, the door swings both ways. The extremists have answered this question:
    “Can someone punish citizens for crimes of a government?”

    Welcome to utilitarian calculus. Is it acceptable for these bombers to target the families of US/UK politicians that lied their countries into war and thus destroyed hundreds of thousands of lives in the ME?

    Answer this question and you have answered the first. Unless; one rule for you, another rule for me.

    Peace.

    Note: Keep in mind, in this case, the family actually reported their son as dangerous to the authorities.

    Read More
    • Replies: @German_reader

    Is it acceptable for these bombers to target the families of US/UK politicians that lied their countries into war and thus destroyed hundreds of thousands of lives in the ME?
     
    Somehow I doubt that would really offend many of the regular commenters here that much...some might even cheer if someone like Cherie Blair got killed by Islamists. One of the things that so absolutely enrages me about Islamist terrorists is actually just this...they don't target representatives of the elite (like left-wing terror groups like the Baader-Meinhof gang often did), they deliberately engage in totally indiscriminate killing of civilians, of ordinary citizens whose influence on the political process is limited and who in many cases probably were even opposed to military interventions in the Mideast (and of course this is very convenient for well-protected elite members as well...it's easy for them to say that one just has to live with the terror threat).
    Anyway, measures of collective punishment like those advocated by Taleb certainly raise a lot of moral problems...but in some situations they might conceivably be necessary.
    , @reiner Tor

    Is it acceptable for these bombers to target the families of US/UK politicians that lied their countries into war and thus destroyed hundreds of thousands of lives in the ME?
     
    Yes, if they have no other method that works.

    Though please note that in that case they could just target the politicians themselves. No politician is interested in dying the way suicide bombers are. There's a huge downside for them personally even if you don't hurt their families.

    It might get easier to target and punish them after their terms. Does Tony Blair still get the same protection as when he was prime minister? I guess not. Maybe W. Bush would be an easier target than a sitting president. What about lobbyists or paymasters? Like Sheldon Adelson. He might be a softer target than even W. Bush. Yet I bet you he's been pushing for wars all the time - guilty as hell.

    It'd be highly effective if a few such leaders etc. were taken out by terrorists. Perhaps it would make them think. If it didn't work, sure, they could turn to their family members. Then maybe family members would pressure politicians etc. not to push for more wars. "Think of the children!"

    I understand how morally depraved it was to attack so many Muslim (and non-Muslim, in the case of Serbia) countries for no valid reason. I don't much like Muslims, but killing them for no reason is still murder. Causing the deaths of hundreds of thousands or millions (even if indirectly) is a horrendous crime even if it had no repercussions for our own countries. Such decisions should be taken responsibly and after great consideration. Can you tell me why the US and UK attacked Iraq in 2003? (I'm not even sure W. and Blair could tell us...) It certainly didn't benefit those countries. Hitler's war was perhaps irresponsible, but at least it would've benefited Germans, had he won. In these Middle Eastern wars it's obvious that they won't benefit anyone. In many ways it's worse than simple wars of conquest where the aim is to harm. W. valued Arab (and US soldier) lives so little he just let them die without thinking it through. Without thinking about the issue at all.
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  62. @Talha
    Hey rT,

    Taleb poses the question:
    "Can someone punish the family for crimes of an individual?"

    Well, the door swings both ways. The extremists have answered this question:
    "Can someone punish citizens for crimes of a government?"

    Welcome to utilitarian calculus. Is it acceptable for these bombers to target the families of US/UK politicians that lied their countries into war and thus destroyed hundreds of thousands of lives in the ME?

    Answer this question and you have answered the first. Unless; one rule for you, another rule for me.

    Peace.

    Note: Keep in mind, in this case, the family actually reported their son as dangerous to the authorities.

    Is it acceptable for these bombers to target the families of US/UK politicians that lied their countries into war and thus destroyed hundreds of thousands of lives in the ME?

    Somehow I doubt that would really offend many of the regular commenters here that much…some might even cheer if someone like Cherie Blair got killed by Islamists. One of the things that so absolutely enrages me about Islamist terrorists is actually just this…they don’t target representatives of the elite (like left-wing terror groups like the Baader-Meinhof gang often did), they deliberately engage in totally indiscriminate killing of civilians, of ordinary citizens whose influence on the political process is limited and who in many cases probably were even opposed to military interventions in the Mideast (and of course this is very convenient for well-protected elite members as well…it’s easy for them to say that one just has to live with the terror threat).
    Anyway, measures of collective punishment like those advocated by Taleb certainly raise a lot of moral problems…but in some situations they might conceivably be necessary.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
    Sailer has also repeatedly suggested making the families of terrorists partially culpable.

    http://takimag.com/article/four_ways_to_save_europe_steve_sailer/

    Fourth, Europeans need to adapt their legal system to the nonindividualistic culture of Muslims. For example, the threat of a jail term might not deter a Muslim terrorist who expects to flee back to Syria and/or collect his 72 virgins.

    Cultures with more experience dealing with Muslims, whether Hindu or other Muslims, typically wind up using various forms of collective punishment to persuade senior Muslims to control their young bravos.
     
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  63. Cagey Beast says: • Website
    @reiner Tor
    Though Taleb's suggestion is quite mild. A mere financial penalty for the family.

    The police and immigration services should use existing laws intensely on the neighbours, friends and relations of suicide bombers and the like. Make every small time criminal worry that his drug dealing, people smuggling or bootleg fashion business is endangered by the Islamist nutcase living down the hall. If that doesn’t work, the next stage is far nastier. I wouldn’t recommend it:

    The Paris massacre of 1961 occurred on 17 October 1961, during the Algerian War (1954–62). Under orders from the head of the Parisian police, Maurice Papon, the French National Police attacked a demonstration of some 30,000 pro-National Liberation Front (FLN) Algerians. Two months before, the FLN had decided to increase its bombing in France and to resume the campaign against both pro-France Algerians and the rival Algerian nationalist organization, the Algerian National Movement in France. After 37 years of denial, in 1998 the French government acknowledged 40 deaths, although there are estimates of 100 to 300 victims.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_massacre_of_1961

    Read More
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  64. reiner Tor says: • Website
    @Talha
    Hey rT,

    Taleb poses the question:
    "Can someone punish the family for crimes of an individual?"

    Well, the door swings both ways. The extremists have answered this question:
    "Can someone punish citizens for crimes of a government?"

    Welcome to utilitarian calculus. Is it acceptable for these bombers to target the families of US/UK politicians that lied their countries into war and thus destroyed hundreds of thousands of lives in the ME?

    Answer this question and you have answered the first. Unless; one rule for you, another rule for me.

    Peace.

    Note: Keep in mind, in this case, the family actually reported their son as dangerous to the authorities.

    Is it acceptable for these bombers to target the families of US/UK politicians that lied their countries into war and thus destroyed hundreds of thousands of lives in the ME?

    Yes, if they have no other method that works.

    Though please note that in that case they could just target the politicians themselves. No politician is interested in dying the way suicide bombers are. There’s a huge downside for them personally even if you don’t hurt their families.

    It might get easier to target and punish them after their terms. Does Tony Blair still get the same protection as when he was prime minister? I guess not. Maybe W. Bush would be an easier target than a sitting president. What about lobbyists or paymasters? Like Sheldon Adelson. He might be a softer target than even W. Bush. Yet I bet you he’s been pushing for wars all the time – guilty as hell.

    It’d be highly effective if a few such leaders etc. were taken out by terrorists. Perhaps it would make them think. If it didn’t work, sure, they could turn to their family members. Then maybe family members would pressure politicians etc. not to push for more wars. “Think of the children!”

    I understand how morally depraved it was to attack so many Muslim (and non-Muslim, in the case of Serbia) countries for no valid reason. I don’t much like Muslims, but killing them for no reason is still murder. Causing the deaths of hundreds of thousands or millions (even if indirectly) is a horrendous crime even if it had no repercussions for our own countries. Such decisions should be taken responsibly and after great consideration. Can you tell me why the US and UK attacked Iraq in 2003? (I’m not even sure W. and Blair could tell us…) It certainly didn’t benefit those countries. Hitler’s war was perhaps irresponsible, but at least it would’ve benefited Germans, had he won. In these Middle Eastern wars it’s obvious that they won’t benefit anyone. In many ways it’s worse than simple wars of conquest where the aim is to harm. W. valued Arab (and US soldier) lives so little he just let them die without thinking it through. Without thinking about the issue at all.

    Read More
    • Replies: @German_reader

    Does Tony Blair still get the same protection as when he was prime minister? I guess not.
     
    Blair has enriched himself to an obscene degree, he probably can afford any security he wants.
    , @for-the-record

    In these Middle Eastern wars it’s obvious that they won’t benefit anyone.
     
    No one at all? Whether intentional or otherwise, there is certainly one major party in the Middle East that has benefited considerably from all the resultant instability.
    , @El Dato
    I found this recounting of how suicide bombing of civilian targets came about to be pretty enlightening:

    https://youtu.be/9aLQPNPlK5M?t=1813

    Start at 00:30:13 or


    https://youtu.be/9aLQPNPlK5M?t=1813
     
    (Disregard the dramatic music, which is annoying and clearly meant for modern-day BBC watchers)
    , @utu
    The fact that the high value targets are never targeted by the so called terrorists tells me that the so called terrorist are not working for whom we are told they are working.
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  65. @jimbojones
    I'm with Dalrymple on this one, there is a root cause to the problem, and that root cause is Wahabism.
    https://www.city-journal.org/html/wahhabi-threat-15210.html
    Wahabism should be confronted, but judging by Trump's recent Saudi adventure, it won't be.

    that root cause is Wahabism

    Root cause is immigration.

    Wahabism should be confronted

    You don’t have to confront it if it is far away in another country.

    Read More
    • Replies: @for-the-record

    You don’t have to confront it if it is far away in another country.
     
    You're right about that, which is why Eastern Europe is, and will hopefully remain, a relative oasis of security. But for most of Western Europe, that is unfortunately no longer possible.
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  66. @LondonBob
    Yes, I don't expect any great change from the incompetents who run things but the fact children were targeted seems to be raising the ire of the people who might just some day decide enough is enough.

    the people who might just some day decide enough is enough

    It’s getting near the weekend, and the monkeys are tired of fighting.

    Read More
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  67. @reiner Tor

    Is it acceptable for these bombers to target the families of US/UK politicians that lied their countries into war and thus destroyed hundreds of thousands of lives in the ME?
     
    Yes, if they have no other method that works.

    Though please note that in that case they could just target the politicians themselves. No politician is interested in dying the way suicide bombers are. There's a huge downside for them personally even if you don't hurt their families.

    It might get easier to target and punish them after their terms. Does Tony Blair still get the same protection as when he was prime minister? I guess not. Maybe W. Bush would be an easier target than a sitting president. What about lobbyists or paymasters? Like Sheldon Adelson. He might be a softer target than even W. Bush. Yet I bet you he's been pushing for wars all the time - guilty as hell.

    It'd be highly effective if a few such leaders etc. were taken out by terrorists. Perhaps it would make them think. If it didn't work, sure, they could turn to their family members. Then maybe family members would pressure politicians etc. not to push for more wars. "Think of the children!"

    I understand how morally depraved it was to attack so many Muslim (and non-Muslim, in the case of Serbia) countries for no valid reason. I don't much like Muslims, but killing them for no reason is still murder. Causing the deaths of hundreds of thousands or millions (even if indirectly) is a horrendous crime even if it had no repercussions for our own countries. Such decisions should be taken responsibly and after great consideration. Can you tell me why the US and UK attacked Iraq in 2003? (I'm not even sure W. and Blair could tell us...) It certainly didn't benefit those countries. Hitler's war was perhaps irresponsible, but at least it would've benefited Germans, had he won. In these Middle Eastern wars it's obvious that they won't benefit anyone. In many ways it's worse than simple wars of conquest where the aim is to harm. W. valued Arab (and US soldier) lives so little he just let them die without thinking it through. Without thinking about the issue at all.

    Does Tony Blair still get the same protection as when he was prime minister? I guess not.

    Blair has enriched himself to an obscene degree, he probably can afford any security he wants.

    Read More
    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    I don't think he can buy head of state/government level top security. Even paying just three bodyguards costs an insane amount of money (and I guess they aren't constantly on duty, and occasionally take vacations, too), but I guess the British prime minister has dozens of bodyguards and police constantly on duty. (It's important that the police on duty protecting official buildings are part of the security which would need to be cracked by the prospective terrorists.) I don't think it's easy to buy that kind of protection.

    But even if Blair could buy it, I doubt he does. If for no other reason, then because it's quite uncomfortable.
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  68. @reiner Tor

    Is it acceptable for these bombers to target the families of US/UK politicians that lied their countries into war and thus destroyed hundreds of thousands of lives in the ME?
     
    Yes, if they have no other method that works.

    Though please note that in that case they could just target the politicians themselves. No politician is interested in dying the way suicide bombers are. There's a huge downside for them personally even if you don't hurt their families.

    It might get easier to target and punish them after their terms. Does Tony Blair still get the same protection as when he was prime minister? I guess not. Maybe W. Bush would be an easier target than a sitting president. What about lobbyists or paymasters? Like Sheldon Adelson. He might be a softer target than even W. Bush. Yet I bet you he's been pushing for wars all the time - guilty as hell.

    It'd be highly effective if a few such leaders etc. were taken out by terrorists. Perhaps it would make them think. If it didn't work, sure, they could turn to their family members. Then maybe family members would pressure politicians etc. not to push for more wars. "Think of the children!"

    I understand how morally depraved it was to attack so many Muslim (and non-Muslim, in the case of Serbia) countries for no valid reason. I don't much like Muslims, but killing them for no reason is still murder. Causing the deaths of hundreds of thousands or millions (even if indirectly) is a horrendous crime even if it had no repercussions for our own countries. Such decisions should be taken responsibly and after great consideration. Can you tell me why the US and UK attacked Iraq in 2003? (I'm not even sure W. and Blair could tell us...) It certainly didn't benefit those countries. Hitler's war was perhaps irresponsible, but at least it would've benefited Germans, had he won. In these Middle Eastern wars it's obvious that they won't benefit anyone. In many ways it's worse than simple wars of conquest where the aim is to harm. W. valued Arab (and US soldier) lives so little he just let them die without thinking it through. Without thinking about the issue at all.

    In these Middle Eastern wars it’s obvious that they won’t benefit anyone.

    No one at all? Whether intentional or otherwise, there is certainly one major party in the Middle East that has benefited considerably from all the resultant instability.

    Read More
    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    To be honest, the benefits to Israel are minuscule. They only advocated for those wars because they had no skin in the game: they didn't bear the costs. And I don't think W. would've started Iraq if he really thought that it wouldn't benefit the US. He was dumb and manipulated into it.
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  69. @Hippopotamusdrome


    that root cause is Wahabism

     

    Root cause is immigration.


    Wahabism should be confronted

     

    You don't have to confront it if it is far away in another country.

    You don’t have to confront it if it is far away in another country.

    You’re right about that, which is why Eastern Europe is, and will hopefully remain, a relative oasis of security. But for most of Western Europe, that is unfortunately no longer possible.

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  70. ussr andy says:

    The HBD implications of fully enforced kin liability must be interesting.

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  71. reiner Tor says: • Website
    @for-the-record

    In these Middle Eastern wars it’s obvious that they won’t benefit anyone.
     
    No one at all? Whether intentional or otherwise, there is certainly one major party in the Middle East that has benefited considerably from all the resultant instability.

    To be honest, the benefits to Israel are minuscule. They only advocated for those wars because they had no skin in the game: they didn’t bear the costs. And I don’t think W. would’ve started Iraq if he really thought that it wouldn’t benefit the US. He was dumb and manipulated into it.

    Read More
    • Replies: @for-the-record

    To be honest, the benefits to Israel are minuscule. They only advocated for those wars because they had no skin in the game: they didn’t bear the costs. And I don’t think W. would’ve started Iraq if he really thought that it wouldn’t benefit the US. He was dumb and manipulated into it.
     
    Exactly, Bush was dumb and manipulated into it. Of course Israel benefits. In the 1990s there was lots of pressure on Israel to settle with the Palestinians, and until his assassination Rabin appears to have been moving in that direction. With the whole "War on Terror" and instability in the Mideast, no one now cares much about what is happening in Israel where "facts on the ground" continue their uninterrupted course.

    There's all sorts of evidence that it was official Israeli-neocon (is there a difference?) policy to upend all of the secular Arab regimes (plus Iran), I am sure you have seen this.
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  72. reiner Tor says: • Website
    @German_reader

    Does Tony Blair still get the same protection as when he was prime minister? I guess not.
     
    Blair has enriched himself to an obscene degree, he probably can afford any security he wants.

    I don’t think he can buy head of state/government level top security. Even paying just three bodyguards costs an insane amount of money (and I guess they aren’t constantly on duty, and occasionally take vacations, too), but I guess the British prime minister has dozens of bodyguards and police constantly on duty. (It’s important that the police on duty protecting official buildings are part of the security which would need to be cracked by the prospective terrorists.) I don’t think it’s easy to buy that kind of protection.

    But even if Blair could buy it, I doubt he does. If for no other reason, then because it’s quite uncomfortable.

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  73. EL Dato says:
    @Talha
    As the details emerge - it is almost, down the line straight up as Mr. Oliver Roy has pointed out after profiling 100 terrorists or Daesh fighters from the West*. Here are some details from this morning on the suspect (beyond the usual people saying things like - he was a quiet guy, I wouldn't suspect...:
    "The 'ordinary' teenager posing in the new photographs was described as 'quiet' and 'not the sort of kid that stood out' and showed little interest in religion, friends told MailOnline, adding that he even smoked cannabis....One neighbour and schoolmate claimed: 'None of them were your typical Salafis or religious or extremists. No religion was involved,' a schoolmate said. A year ago, all of this changed when the killer started hanging out with 'people I hadn't seen before.'..."
    "The imam of Didsbury Mosque, Mohammed Saeed revealed Salman stopped going to the mosque in 2015 as he objected to anti- ISIS comments. He said: 'Salman used to come to the mosque occasionally, he wasn't particularly friendly towards me because he didn't like my anti-ISIS sermons. He didn't like what I was saying and showed me the face of hate. He came to the mosque less and less after that.'

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4536624/Salman-Abedi-known-security-services-point.html

    And again:
    "Two people who knew Salman Abedi are said to have called the police counter-terrorism hotline five years ago to raise concerns that he thought 'being a suicide bomber was OK'.
    And a senior US intelligence official has claimed that members of his own family had warned police that he was 'dangerous'...It is understood that Abedi was ‘known’ to the Security Services through his associations to those linked to terrorism in Manchester’s Libyan community...According to NBC, a senior US intelligence official said Abedi's family had warned police that he was 'dangerous'. He was identified after the attack by his bankcard and had used a 'big and sophisticated bomb' using materials not widely available in Britain."

    This is happening way too often that the families (and acquaintances) are warning the security apparatus and somehow the guy pulls off his act. This cannot be coincidence. He was reported by his parents and then came back from Libya, visiting a territory known to be inhabited by Daesh. If there is no collusion from the security apparatus, then there is criminal negligence at this point - at least 5 or more people should be losing their jobs immediately.

    Peace.

    *Again, match up the profile - he fits right into the archetype:
    "Another characteristic that all western countries have in common is that radicals are almost all 'born-again' Muslims who, after living a highly secular life – frequenting clubs, drinking alcohol, involvement in petty crime – suddenly renew their religious observance, either individually or in the context of a small group. The Abdeslam brothers ran a Brussels bar and went out to nightclubs in the months preceding the Bataclan shooting. Most move into action in the months following their religious 'reconversion' or 'conversion', but have usually already exhibited signs of radicalisation.....Their dress habits also conform to those of today’s youth: brands, baseball caps, hoods, in other words streetwear, and not even of the Islamic variety....Their relationship to the local mosque was ambivalent: either they attended episodically, or they were expelled for having shown disrespect for the local imam….To summarise: the typical radical is a young, second-generation immigrant or convert, very often involved in episodes of petty crime, with practically no religious education, but having a rapid and recent trajectory of conversion/reconversion, more often in the framework of a group of friends or over the internet than in the context of a mosque. The embrace of religion is rarely kept secret, but rather is exhibited, but it does not necessarily correspond to immersion in religious practice….As we have seen, jihadis do not descend into violence after poring over sacred texts. They do not have the necessary religious culture – and, above all, care little about having one. They do not become radicals because they have misread the texts or because they have been manipulated. They are radicals because they choose to be, because only radicalism appeals to them. No matter what database is taken as a reference, the paucity of religious knowledge among jihadis is glaring.”
    https://www.theguardian.com/news/2017/apr/13/who-are-the-new-jihadis

    If there is no collusion from the security apparatus, then there is criminal negligence at this point – at least 5 or more people should be losing their jobs immediately.

    Hmmm……

    https://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/11/30/investigatory_powers_act_backdoors/

    Among the many unpleasant things in the Investigatory Powers Act that was officially signed into law this week, one that has not gained as much attention is the apparent ability for the UK government to undermine encryption and demand surveillance backdoors.

    https://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/05/04/uk_bulk_surveillance_powers_draft/

    The UK government has secretly drawn up more details of its new bulk surveillance powers – awarding itself the ability to monitor Brits’ live communications, and insert encryption backdoors by the backdoor.

    https://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/05/25/uk_to_push_antiencryption_laws_after_election/

    It was suspected that the government intended to rush the paper past Parliament in order to get it enacted, but widespread public debate over the matter made that approach increasing untenable.

    Unfortunately the tragedy in Manchester may yet provide the means by which the government can force the issue into law. Despite widespread anger and frustration with the Conservative government over its approach to Brexit, as well as a raft of unpopular measures included in its manifesto, the party is still expected to win a majority in the House of Commons and so be in a position to push the anti-encryption laws forward.

    This is either an instance of “never let a good crisis go to waste” or “implement plan sixty-six”, not sure which.

    Also, what is this about? Don’t tell me this is “negligence”. If something is “leaked to the NYT” it happens 100% on purpose.

    http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-40040210

    Home Secretary Amber Rudd had said she was “irritated” by the disclosure of Abedi’s identity against the UK’s wishes and had warned Washington “it should not happen again”.

    However, the pictures of debris – which appear to show bloodstained fragments from the bomb and the backpack used to conceal it – were subsequently leaked to the New York Times, prompting an angry response from within Whitehall and from UK police chiefs.

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  74. El Dato says:
    @reiner Tor

    Is it acceptable for these bombers to target the families of US/UK politicians that lied their countries into war and thus destroyed hundreds of thousands of lives in the ME?
     
    Yes, if they have no other method that works.

    Though please note that in that case they could just target the politicians themselves. No politician is interested in dying the way suicide bombers are. There's a huge downside for them personally even if you don't hurt their families.

    It might get easier to target and punish them after their terms. Does Tony Blair still get the same protection as when he was prime minister? I guess not. Maybe W. Bush would be an easier target than a sitting president. What about lobbyists or paymasters? Like Sheldon Adelson. He might be a softer target than even W. Bush. Yet I bet you he's been pushing for wars all the time - guilty as hell.

    It'd be highly effective if a few such leaders etc. were taken out by terrorists. Perhaps it would make them think. If it didn't work, sure, they could turn to their family members. Then maybe family members would pressure politicians etc. not to push for more wars. "Think of the children!"

    I understand how morally depraved it was to attack so many Muslim (and non-Muslim, in the case of Serbia) countries for no valid reason. I don't much like Muslims, but killing them for no reason is still murder. Causing the deaths of hundreds of thousands or millions (even if indirectly) is a horrendous crime even if it had no repercussions for our own countries. Such decisions should be taken responsibly and after great consideration. Can you tell me why the US and UK attacked Iraq in 2003? (I'm not even sure W. and Blair could tell us...) It certainly didn't benefit those countries. Hitler's war was perhaps irresponsible, but at least it would've benefited Germans, had he won. In these Middle Eastern wars it's obvious that they won't benefit anyone. In many ways it's worse than simple wars of conquest where the aim is to harm. W. valued Arab (and US soldier) lives so little he just let them die without thinking it through. Without thinking about the issue at all.

    I found this recounting of how suicide bombing of civilian targets came about to be pretty enlightening:

    Start at 00:30:13 or

    https://youtu.be/9aLQPNPlK5M?t=1813

    (Disregard the dramatic music, which is annoying and clearly meant for modern-day BBC watchers)

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  75. @reiner Tor
    To be honest, the benefits to Israel are minuscule. They only advocated for those wars because they had no skin in the game: they didn't bear the costs. And I don't think W. would've started Iraq if he really thought that it wouldn't benefit the US. He was dumb and manipulated into it.

    To be honest, the benefits to Israel are minuscule. They only advocated for those wars because they had no skin in the game: they didn’t bear the costs. And I don’t think W. would’ve started Iraq if he really thought that it wouldn’t benefit the US. He was dumb and manipulated into it.

    Exactly, Bush was dumb and manipulated into it. Of course Israel benefits. In the 1990s there was lots of pressure on Israel to settle with the Palestinians, and until his assassination Rabin appears to have been moving in that direction. With the whole “War on Terror” and instability in the Mideast, no one now cares much about what is happening in Israel where “facts on the ground” continue their uninterrupted course.

    There’s all sorts of evidence that it was official Israeli-neocon (is there a difference?) policy to upend all of the secular Arab regimes (plus Iran), I am sure you have seen this.

    Read More
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  76. anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @Anatoly Karlin
    No, not at all.

    Russia is "alt right" in the sense that there is little to no "white guilt" of the sort that pervades SWPLs in the US and EUrope, but conversely, there is a pretty strong "friendship of peoples"/multi-nationality ideology that is likewise blank slatist, and if anything even more authoritarian and anti-freedom of speech in nature.

    Oh and unlike in the US, you could actually, potentially, go to prison for it. I highlighted a particularly ridiculous case here: http://www.unz.com/akarlin/antiracist-commissars/

    The joys of life in the Putlerreich! :)

    An impression I have on russians is that while they are more into valuing their own people (ethnicity and culture) and not favoring even a considerable immigration of other peoples to their lands (their experience with Central Asians and Caucasian), they aren’t rabid xenophobes and can tolerate anyone that’s cleary the exception of their basic concerns.
    I remember from somewhere a video about a russian show in the 90s dealing with computer technology and one of the hosts were a black man. And there’s still the soviet legacy of ethnic tolerance and egality.
    Although I still believe nowadays with the immigration issues in other countries (other than their own) and western hate of russian “authoritarianism” makes russians value their own much more than immigrants and seek self-preservation than inviting different people.

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  77. iffen says:
    @Talha
    As the details emerge - it is almost, down the line straight up as Mr. Oliver Roy has pointed out after profiling 100 terrorists or Daesh fighters from the West*. Here are some details from this morning on the suspect (beyond the usual people saying things like - he was a quiet guy, I wouldn't suspect...:
    "The 'ordinary' teenager posing in the new photographs was described as 'quiet' and 'not the sort of kid that stood out' and showed little interest in religion, friends told MailOnline, adding that he even smoked cannabis....One neighbour and schoolmate claimed: 'None of them were your typical Salafis or religious or extremists. No religion was involved,' a schoolmate said. A year ago, all of this changed when the killer started hanging out with 'people I hadn't seen before.'..."
    "The imam of Didsbury Mosque, Mohammed Saeed revealed Salman stopped going to the mosque in 2015 as he objected to anti- ISIS comments. He said: 'Salman used to come to the mosque occasionally, he wasn't particularly friendly towards me because he didn't like my anti-ISIS sermons. He didn't like what I was saying and showed me the face of hate. He came to the mosque less and less after that.'

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4536624/Salman-Abedi-known-security-services-point.html

    And again:
    "Two people who knew Salman Abedi are said to have called the police counter-terrorism hotline five years ago to raise concerns that he thought 'being a suicide bomber was OK'.
    And a senior US intelligence official has claimed that members of his own family had warned police that he was 'dangerous'...It is understood that Abedi was ‘known’ to the Security Services through his associations to those linked to terrorism in Manchester’s Libyan community...According to NBC, a senior US intelligence official said Abedi's family had warned police that he was 'dangerous'. He was identified after the attack by his bankcard and had used a 'big and sophisticated bomb' using materials not widely available in Britain."

    This is happening way too often that the families (and acquaintances) are warning the security apparatus and somehow the guy pulls off his act. This cannot be coincidence. He was reported by his parents and then came back from Libya, visiting a territory known to be inhabited by Daesh. If there is no collusion from the security apparatus, then there is criminal negligence at this point - at least 5 or more people should be losing their jobs immediately.

    Peace.

    *Again, match up the profile - he fits right into the archetype:
    "Another characteristic that all western countries have in common is that radicals are almost all 'born-again' Muslims who, after living a highly secular life – frequenting clubs, drinking alcohol, involvement in petty crime – suddenly renew their religious observance, either individually or in the context of a small group. The Abdeslam brothers ran a Brussels bar and went out to nightclubs in the months preceding the Bataclan shooting. Most move into action in the months following their religious 'reconversion' or 'conversion', but have usually already exhibited signs of radicalisation.....Their dress habits also conform to those of today’s youth: brands, baseball caps, hoods, in other words streetwear, and not even of the Islamic variety....Their relationship to the local mosque was ambivalent: either they attended episodically, or they were expelled for having shown disrespect for the local imam….To summarise: the typical radical is a young, second-generation immigrant or convert, very often involved in episodes of petty crime, with practically no religious education, but having a rapid and recent trajectory of conversion/reconversion, more often in the framework of a group of friends or over the internet than in the context of a mosque. The embrace of religion is rarely kept secret, but rather is exhibited, but it does not necessarily correspond to immersion in religious practice….As we have seen, jihadis do not descend into violence after poring over sacred texts. They do not have the necessary religious culture – and, above all, care little about having one. They do not become radicals because they have misread the texts or because they have been manipulated. They are radicals because they choose to be, because only radicalism appeals to them. No matter what database is taken as a reference, the paucity of religious knowledge among jihadis is glaring.”
    https://www.theguardian.com/news/2017/apr/13/who-are-the-new-jihadis

    This is happening way too often that the families (and acquaintances) are warning the security apparatus and somehow the guy pulls off his act. This cannot be coincidence. He was reported by his parents and then came back from Libya, visiting a territory known to be inhabited by Daesh. If there is no collusion from the security apparatus, then there is criminal negligence at this point – at least 5 or more people should be losing their jobs immediately.

    Snitched on by associates, family and community, interviewed and “surveilled” by authorities, went to ME for terrorist training and he still pulls it off.

    Makes you wonder if the conspiracy wingnuts are not nuts after all.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    Hey iffen,

    Look - it's just waaay too convenient.

    It gets better though...watch this, they actually did act on a tip by Muslims and caught a guy last month - but what was the target - this is key:
    "A suspected terrorist attack was foiled after armed police arrested a man who is alleged to have been found carrying knives near the Houses of Parliament.
    The Guardian understands the operation was triggered following a tip-off to police by a member of Britain’s Muslim community who was concerned about the man’s behaviour."
    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/apr/27/man-arrested-over-incident-in-whitehall-near-parliament

    There seems to be a completely different set of protocols and priorities when it comes to the elite vs the proles. Keep in mind, this guy just had knives - nothing close to having gone overseas in Daesh territory.

    Look, I'm even open to the theory of massive criminal incompetence - but have you heard of anyone losing their jobs over this?

    Peace.

    , @reiner Tor
    I think with the Belgian terror attack (last year? the year before? can't keep track of them) I read some longer news stories about how the Belgian intelligence services are simply overwhelmed. They said that they have a list of so many thousands or perhaps tens of thousands of Islamic radicals who they consider potential jihadis, that it is totally impossible for them to follow each one of them.

    Basically the problem is that just to follow one person (reading his text messages, emails, listening in to his phone etc.) takes several law enforcement officials, and they could do that if they had a few hundred potential jihadis to follow. But they have so many that they'd have to multiply the counter-terrorism arm of the police force to the size of the East German Stasi to be able to keep track of all of them, so it's just not possible to do.

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  78. Talha says:
    @iffen
    This is happening way too often that the families (and acquaintances) are warning the security apparatus and somehow the guy pulls off his act. This cannot be coincidence. He was reported by his parents and then came back from Libya, visiting a territory known to be inhabited by Daesh. If there is no collusion from the security apparatus, then there is criminal negligence at this point – at least 5 or more people should be losing their jobs immediately.

    Snitched on by associates, family and community, interviewed and "surveilled" by authorities, went to ME for terrorist training and he still pulls it off.

    Makes you wonder if the conspiracy wingnuts are not nuts after all.

    Hey iffen,

    Look – it’s just waaay too convenient.

    It gets better though…watch this, they actually did act on a tip by Muslims and caught a guy last month – but what was the target – this is key:
    “A suspected terrorist attack was foiled after armed police arrested a man who is alleged to have been found carrying knives near the Houses of Parliament.
    The Guardian understands the operation was triggered following a tip-off to police by a member of Britain’s Muslim community who was concerned about the man’s behaviour.”

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/apr/27/man-arrested-over-incident-in-whitehall-near-parliament

    There seems to be a completely different set of protocols and priorities when it comes to the elite vs the proles. Keep in mind, this guy just had knives – nothing close to having gone overseas in Daesh territory.

    Look, I’m even open to the theory of massive criminal incompetence – but have you heard of anyone losing their jobs over this?

    Peace.

    Read More
    • Replies: @iffen
    – but have you heard of anyone losing their jobs over this?

    No, not currently, but don't you remember the wholesale clean-out of the intelligence community after no WMDs were found in Iraq?
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  79. reiner Tor says: • Website
    @iffen
    This is happening way too often that the families (and acquaintances) are warning the security apparatus and somehow the guy pulls off his act. This cannot be coincidence. He was reported by his parents and then came back from Libya, visiting a territory known to be inhabited by Daesh. If there is no collusion from the security apparatus, then there is criminal negligence at this point – at least 5 or more people should be losing their jobs immediately.

    Snitched on by associates, family and community, interviewed and "surveilled" by authorities, went to ME for terrorist training and he still pulls it off.

    Makes you wonder if the conspiracy wingnuts are not nuts after all.

    I think with the Belgian terror attack (last year? the year before? can’t keep track of them) I read some longer news stories about how the Belgian intelligence services are simply overwhelmed. They said that they have a list of so many thousands or perhaps tens of thousands of Islamic radicals who they consider potential jihadis, that it is totally impossible for them to follow each one of them.

    Basically the problem is that just to follow one person (reading his text messages, emails, listening in to his phone etc.) takes several law enforcement officials, and they could do that if they had a few hundred potential jihadis to follow. But they have so many that they’d have to multiply the counter-terrorism arm of the police force to the size of the East German Stasi to be able to keep track of all of them, so it’s just not possible to do.

    Read More
    • Replies: @German_reader

    I read some longer news stories about how the Belgian intelligence services are simply overwhelmed. They said that they have a list of so many thousands or perhaps tens of thousands of Islamic radicals who they consider potential jihadis, that it is totally impossible for them to follow each one of them.
     
    Yes, I think that's pretty much it, in Britain, France, Germany you now have thousands of known, potentially violent Islamists, given present conditions it's inevitable that they can't all be monitored all the time, mistakes happen and sooner or later one will get lucky and carry out a successful attack. A lot of terror plots have been foiled in their planning stages (or weren't successful due to the incompetence of the plotters) and don't make major news.
    Also the task is much harder than that of the Stasi was, for effective monitoring of those people you need experts who understand Arabic and the religious background.
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  80. @reiner Tor
    I think with the Belgian terror attack (last year? the year before? can't keep track of them) I read some longer news stories about how the Belgian intelligence services are simply overwhelmed. They said that they have a list of so many thousands or perhaps tens of thousands of Islamic radicals who they consider potential jihadis, that it is totally impossible for them to follow each one of them.

    Basically the problem is that just to follow one person (reading his text messages, emails, listening in to his phone etc.) takes several law enforcement officials, and they could do that if they had a few hundred potential jihadis to follow. But they have so many that they'd have to multiply the counter-terrorism arm of the police force to the size of the East German Stasi to be able to keep track of all of them, so it's just not possible to do.

    I read some longer news stories about how the Belgian intelligence services are simply overwhelmed. They said that they have a list of so many thousands or perhaps tens of thousands of Islamic radicals who they consider potential jihadis, that it is totally impossible for them to follow each one of them.

    Yes, I think that’s pretty much it, in Britain, France, Germany you now have thousands of known, potentially violent Islamists, given present conditions it’s inevitable that they can’t all be monitored all the time, mistakes happen and sooner or later one will get lucky and carry out a successful attack. A lot of terror plots have been foiled in their planning stages (or weren’t successful due to the incompetence of the plotters) and don’t make major news.
    Also the task is much harder than that of the Stasi was, for effective monitoring of those people you need experts who understand Arabic and the religious background.

    Read More
    • Agree: reiner Tor
    • Replies: @Andrei Martyanov

    thousands of known
     
    and possibly tens of thousands of unknown. The competence of European intelligence (and law enforcement) services is under a huge doubt.
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  81. @German_reader

    I read some longer news stories about how the Belgian intelligence services are simply overwhelmed. They said that they have a list of so many thousands or perhaps tens of thousands of Islamic radicals who they consider potential jihadis, that it is totally impossible for them to follow each one of them.
     
    Yes, I think that's pretty much it, in Britain, France, Germany you now have thousands of known, potentially violent Islamists, given present conditions it's inevitable that they can't all be monitored all the time, mistakes happen and sooner or later one will get lucky and carry out a successful attack. A lot of terror plots have been foiled in their planning stages (or weren't successful due to the incompetence of the plotters) and don't make major news.
    Also the task is much harder than that of the Stasi was, for effective monitoring of those people you need experts who understand Arabic and the religious background.

    thousands of known

    and possibly tens of thousands of unknown. The competence of European intelligence (and law enforcement) services is under a huge doubt.

    Read More
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  82. utu says:
    @reiner Tor

    Is it acceptable for these bombers to target the families of US/UK politicians that lied their countries into war and thus destroyed hundreds of thousands of lives in the ME?
     
    Yes, if they have no other method that works.

    Though please note that in that case they could just target the politicians themselves. No politician is interested in dying the way suicide bombers are. There's a huge downside for them personally even if you don't hurt their families.

    It might get easier to target and punish them after their terms. Does Tony Blair still get the same protection as when he was prime minister? I guess not. Maybe W. Bush would be an easier target than a sitting president. What about lobbyists or paymasters? Like Sheldon Adelson. He might be a softer target than even W. Bush. Yet I bet you he's been pushing for wars all the time - guilty as hell.

    It'd be highly effective if a few such leaders etc. were taken out by terrorists. Perhaps it would make them think. If it didn't work, sure, they could turn to their family members. Then maybe family members would pressure politicians etc. not to push for more wars. "Think of the children!"

    I understand how morally depraved it was to attack so many Muslim (and non-Muslim, in the case of Serbia) countries for no valid reason. I don't much like Muslims, but killing them for no reason is still murder. Causing the deaths of hundreds of thousands or millions (even if indirectly) is a horrendous crime even if it had no repercussions for our own countries. Such decisions should be taken responsibly and after great consideration. Can you tell me why the US and UK attacked Iraq in 2003? (I'm not even sure W. and Blair could tell us...) It certainly didn't benefit those countries. Hitler's war was perhaps irresponsible, but at least it would've benefited Germans, had he won. In these Middle Eastern wars it's obvious that they won't benefit anyone. In many ways it's worse than simple wars of conquest where the aim is to harm. W. valued Arab (and US soldier) lives so little he just let them die without thinking it through. Without thinking about the issue at all.

    The fact that the high value targets are never targeted by the so called terrorists tells me that the so called terrorist are not working for whom we are told they are working.

    Read More
    • Replies: @German_reader
    It's much harder to successfully assassinate politicians or other elite members than just carrying out something like a nail bomb attack on crowded public places (e.g. the sophisticated attacks by Germany's Red army faction against high-ranking bankers and the like, especially those in the 1980s, probably only were possible due to logistical support from Eastern bloc countries, it's not that easy to successfully blow up armoured limousines or kill someone protected by bodyguards).
    And anyway, those Islamist bastards regard Western populations as a whole as their enemy, they aren't like our own political terrorists of earlier times.
    , @Talha
    Hey utu,

    I can definitely see this viewpoint. As I've pointed out, there are too many weird issues with a lot of these 'hits' that get through and the ones that don't. Keep in mind, when motivated, the extremists are quite capable of hitting or attempting very high value targets.

    Chechen extremists killed the elder Kadyrov and Al-Qaeda guys killed Ahmad Shah Massoud.

    Peace.
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  83. @utu
    The fact that the high value targets are never targeted by the so called terrorists tells me that the so called terrorist are not working for whom we are told they are working.

    It’s much harder to successfully assassinate politicians or other elite members than just carrying out something like a nail bomb attack on crowded public places (e.g. the sophisticated attacks by Germany’s Red army faction against high-ranking bankers and the like, especially those in the 1980s, probably only were possible due to logistical support from Eastern bloc countries, it’s not that easy to successfully blow up armoured limousines or kill someone protected by bodyguards).
    And anyway, those Islamist bastards regard Western populations as a whole as their enemy, they aren’t like our own political terrorists of earlier times.

    Read More
    • Replies: @utu
    Nothing is as it seems, Dear G_R

    Red Army Faction was a part of Gladio operation. It was a brilliant plan to help leftist groups and create some so they would implicate the Communist Block. Any terror campaign always leads the population to beg authorities for more protection. The state security apparatus is always the main beneficiary of terror. Using a leftist group had a drawback of selecting its targets from among of the elite and upper echelons of society. Any cause demands a sacrifice. And the cause was to stop the leftists in the West. The campaign of the so-called Islamic terrorist also has its drawback. It may turn people against immigration and open borders. But this can be balanced by maintaining the proper dosage of both: the terror campaign and open society campaign. So far it works beautifully as it is exemplified by many of your comments.
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  84. Talha says:
    @utu
    The fact that the high value targets are never targeted by the so called terrorists tells me that the so called terrorist are not working for whom we are told they are working.

    Hey utu,

    I can definitely see this viewpoint. As I’ve pointed out, there are too many weird issues with a lot of these ‘hits’ that get through and the ones that don’t. Keep in mind, when motivated, the extremists are quite capable of hitting or attempting very high value targets.

    Chechen extremists killed the elder Kadyrov and Al-Qaeda guys killed Ahmad Shah Massoud.

    Peace.

    Read More
    • Replies: @utu
    You can also wonder why Takfiri (Daesh...) never attacks Israeli targets. And when they do it must be by mistake because they apologize:

    Ex-defense minister says IS ‘apologized’ to Israel for November clash
    http://www.timesofisrael.com/ex-defense-minister-says-is-apologized-to-israel-for-november-clash/

    They must have been well brought up by their mothers, those Takfiri. They know when it is appropriate to apologize. The rude Americans could learn good manners from Daesh and apologize to those they call so callously the collateral damage.

    The question is why Israel is not a viable target for ISIS.

    Former Israeli Defense Minister Confirms Israeli Collaboration with ISIS in Syria
    https://www.richardsilverstein.com/2017/04/23/breaking-former-israeli-defense-minister-confirms-israeli-collaboration-isis-syria/
    , @reiner Tor
    In both of your examples the targets moved within countries and populations containing a large number of jihadi sympathizers. In the Massoud case, the bodyguards were probably incompetent or technically not well prepared - I seriously doubt a reporter could take a bomb on his person while doing an interview with a top politician. They'd just use some detectors and body searches etc. and catch it.

    The Kadyrov case was more difficult to pull off, but even there probably they needed cooperation from some higher level people at somewhere - the contractor doing the repairs or the stadium leadership or both. It's more difficult to do that if you're a member of a Muslim minority and trying to kill a Western leader. There aren't many jihadis in leadership positions in Western construction firms. Since it hasn't happened in Chechnya ever since, I guess security has been heightened there in the last decade.
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  85. iffen says:
    @Talha
    Hey iffen,

    Look - it's just waaay too convenient.

    It gets better though...watch this, they actually did act on a tip by Muslims and caught a guy last month - but what was the target - this is key:
    "A suspected terrorist attack was foiled after armed police arrested a man who is alleged to have been found carrying knives near the Houses of Parliament.
    The Guardian understands the operation was triggered following a tip-off to police by a member of Britain’s Muslim community who was concerned about the man’s behaviour."
    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/apr/27/man-arrested-over-incident-in-whitehall-near-parliament

    There seems to be a completely different set of protocols and priorities when it comes to the elite vs the proles. Keep in mind, this guy just had knives - nothing close to having gone overseas in Daesh territory.

    Look, I'm even open to the theory of massive criminal incompetence - but have you heard of anyone losing their jobs over this?

    Peace.

    – but have you heard of anyone losing their jobs over this?

    No, not currently, but don’t you remember the wholesale clean-out of the intelligence community after no WMDs were found in Iraq?

    Read More
    • LOL: Talha
    • Replies: @Talha
    Dang - looks like Egypt actually might be making people accountable for security lapses related to terrorism:
    "Egypt removed the security chief of a province south of Cairo where Islamic State militants last week killed 29 Christians traveling to a remote monastery in the desert, an acknowledgment of the lapses by authorities in dealing with the attack."
    http://www.foxnews.com/world/2017/05/30/egypt-sacks-local-security-chief-after-attack-on-christians.html

    Peace.
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  86. utu says:
    @Talha
    Hey utu,

    I can definitely see this viewpoint. As I've pointed out, there are too many weird issues with a lot of these 'hits' that get through and the ones that don't. Keep in mind, when motivated, the extremists are quite capable of hitting or attempting very high value targets.

    Chechen extremists killed the elder Kadyrov and Al-Qaeda guys killed Ahmad Shah Massoud.

    Peace.

    You can also wonder why Takfiri (Daesh…) never attacks Israeli targets. And when they do it must be by mistake because they apologize:

    Ex-defense minister says IS ‘apologized’ to Israel for November clash

    http://www.timesofisrael.com/ex-defense-minister-says-is-apologized-to-israel-for-november-clash/

    They must have been well brought up by their mothers, those Takfiri. They know when it is appropriate to apologize. The rude Americans could learn good manners from Daesh and apologize to those they call so callously the collateral damage.

    The question is why Israel is not a viable target for ISIS.

    Former Israeli Defense Minister Confirms Israeli Collaboration with ISIS in Syria

    https://www.richardsilverstein.com/2017/04/23/breaking-former-israeli-defense-minister-confirms-israeli-collaboration-isis-syria/

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    Hey utu,

    WOW! That is amazing - I mean an Israeli official publicly stating that Daesh apologized for an attack on their forces.

    That boggles the mind! They don't apologize to anybody - I mean, they even kill off rival groups like Nusra and Al-Qaeda without batting an eye.

    That is some seriously astonishing stuff. Thanks a thousand for the links!

    Peace.
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  87. reiner Tor says: • Website
    @Talha
    Hey utu,

    I can definitely see this viewpoint. As I've pointed out, there are too many weird issues with a lot of these 'hits' that get through and the ones that don't. Keep in mind, when motivated, the extremists are quite capable of hitting or attempting very high value targets.

    Chechen extremists killed the elder Kadyrov and Al-Qaeda guys killed Ahmad Shah Massoud.

    Peace.

    In both of your examples the targets moved within countries and populations containing a large number of jihadi sympathizers. In the Massoud case, the bodyguards were probably incompetent or technically not well prepared – I seriously doubt a reporter could take a bomb on his person while doing an interview with a top politician. They’d just use some detectors and body searches etc. and catch it.

    The Kadyrov case was more difficult to pull off, but even there probably they needed cooperation from some higher level people at somewhere – the contractor doing the repairs or the stadium leadership or both. It’s more difficult to do that if you’re a member of a Muslim minority and trying to kill a Western leader. There aren’t many jihadis in leadership positions in Western construction firms. Since it hasn’t happened in Chechnya ever since, I guess security has been heightened there in the last decade.

    Read More
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  88. Sean says:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-40014636

    Will Opec extend output cuts in bid to push up oil prices?“Two key players have already agreed that they want to extend the existing limit until March next year: Opec’s biggest producer, Saudi Arabia, and Russia, the biggest exporter outside the organisation”.

    Trump is selling half the US oil reserve, which caused a drop in oil prices at a stroke. His energy policy is exerting severe pressure on the financial ability of Saudi and Iran to continue the war in Syria. Russia is also being hurt. American technology (fracking) spells an end to silly money for the world’s troublemakers.

    Read More
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  89. reiner Tor says: • Website
    @reiner Tor
    By the way, Orbán was probably the only #1 leader of a country (definitely in the so-called "democratic world") who endorsed him already last summer. Perhaps the Czech president, too, but I think the Czechs were more circumspect than Orbán.

    Now Orbán's endorsement of him seems to have been a colossal mistake: he took a huge risk for nothing. (It seems unlikely that he will ever be invited to the White House anyway, perhaps not even for a photo op.) It probably wasn't worth much for Trump anyway, unlike his domestic supporters, who have also been abandoned by him in favor of his previous enemies...

    Today at the NATO summit Orbán and Trump were seen talking and laughing together. We’ll see if anything substantial comes out of this. So far still it seems to have been a mistake.

    Read More
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  90. utu says:
    @German_reader
    It's much harder to successfully assassinate politicians or other elite members than just carrying out something like a nail bomb attack on crowded public places (e.g. the sophisticated attacks by Germany's Red army faction against high-ranking bankers and the like, especially those in the 1980s, probably only were possible due to logistical support from Eastern bloc countries, it's not that easy to successfully blow up armoured limousines or kill someone protected by bodyguards).
    And anyway, those Islamist bastards regard Western populations as a whole as their enemy, they aren't like our own political terrorists of earlier times.

    Nothing is as it seems, Dear G_R

    Red Army Faction was a part of Gladio operation. It was a brilliant plan to help leftist groups and create some so they would implicate the Communist Block. Any terror campaign always leads the population to beg authorities for more protection. The state security apparatus is always the main beneficiary of terror. Using a leftist group had a drawback of selecting its targets from among of the elite and upper echelons of society. Any cause demands a sacrifice. And the cause was to stop the leftists in the West. The campaign of the so-called Islamic terrorist also has its drawback. It may turn people against immigration and open borders. But this can be balanced by maintaining the proper dosage of both: the terror campaign and open society campaign. So far it works beautifully as it is exemplified by many of your comments.

    Read More
    • Replies: @reiner Tor

    The state security apparatus is always the main beneficiary of terror.
     
    Communist partisans/resistance fighters/terrorists/whatever during WW2 used essentially acts of terror (like shooting a German officer in the Paris Metro) in order to provoke reprisals from the Germans, which would then turn the population against the Germans and make them join the communists.

    Over time, the communists often got stronger, because most other resistance groups didn't do such reckless terrorism (for fear of provoking reprisals against the civilians), so the communists seemed the most effective anti-German opposition, while the others were often seen as "doing nothing".

    Another example is UCK vs. Rugova, where Rugova was increasingly seen as - you guessed it - "doing nothing".

    ISIS has the same dynamic with al-Qaeda, now nobody wants to join al-Qaeda any more, since ISIS is seen as cooler and more effective among disgruntled Muslim youths. Essentially that is the goal of ISIS - to get support (money and volunteers) from the Muslim masses both in the West and in the Muslim world. Actually, that is the main goal of any terror organization. Changing the policies of their targets is secondary, and usually they want to make those policies worse, not better (from their population's point of view). Because the worse those policies are, the better it is for the terrorist organization.

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  91. reiner Tor says: • Website
    @utu
    Nothing is as it seems, Dear G_R

    Red Army Faction was a part of Gladio operation. It was a brilliant plan to help leftist groups and create some so they would implicate the Communist Block. Any terror campaign always leads the population to beg authorities for more protection. The state security apparatus is always the main beneficiary of terror. Using a leftist group had a drawback of selecting its targets from among of the elite and upper echelons of society. Any cause demands a sacrifice. And the cause was to stop the leftists in the West. The campaign of the so-called Islamic terrorist also has its drawback. It may turn people against immigration and open borders. But this can be balanced by maintaining the proper dosage of both: the terror campaign and open society campaign. So far it works beautifully as it is exemplified by many of your comments.

    The state security apparatus is always the main beneficiary of terror.

    Communist partisans/resistance fighters/terrorists/whatever during WW2 used essentially acts of terror (like shooting a German officer in the Paris Metro) in order to provoke reprisals from the Germans, which would then turn the population against the Germans and make them join the communists.

    Over time, the communists often got stronger, because most other resistance groups didn’t do such reckless terrorism (for fear of provoking reprisals against the civilians), so the communists seemed the most effective anti-German opposition, while the others were often seen as “doing nothing”.

    Another example is UCK vs. Rugova, where Rugova was increasingly seen as – you guessed it – “doing nothing”.

    ISIS has the same dynamic with al-Qaeda, now nobody wants to join al-Qaeda any more, since ISIS is seen as cooler and more effective among disgruntled Muslim youths. Essentially that is the goal of ISIS – to get support (money and volunteers) from the Muslim masses both in the West and in the Muslim world. Actually, that is the main goal of any terror organization. Changing the policies of their targets is secondary, and usually they want to make those policies worse, not better (from their population’s point of view). Because the worse those policies are, the better it is for the terrorist organization.

    Read More
    • Replies: @German_reader

    Because the worse those policies are, the better it is for the terrorist organization.
     
    I agree that's their goal, but it's problematic imo how that assessment is used in mainstream discourse...it's used as an argument against cutting off Muslim immigration, targeted profiling measures (e.g. it's just how ridiculous with airport controls, how even someone like my 70-year old father gets treated as a potential terrorist), putting pressure on Muslim communities...instead we're told we have to be even more open, even more tolerant towards Muslims, so they don't get alienated and won't support killing us. That's just perverse imo.
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  92. Talha says:
    @utu
    You can also wonder why Takfiri (Daesh...) never attacks Israeli targets. And when they do it must be by mistake because they apologize:

    Ex-defense minister says IS ‘apologized’ to Israel for November clash
    http://www.timesofisrael.com/ex-defense-minister-says-is-apologized-to-israel-for-november-clash/

    They must have been well brought up by their mothers, those Takfiri. They know when it is appropriate to apologize. The rude Americans could learn good manners from Daesh and apologize to those they call so callously the collateral damage.

    The question is why Israel is not a viable target for ISIS.

    Former Israeli Defense Minister Confirms Israeli Collaboration with ISIS in Syria
    https://www.richardsilverstein.com/2017/04/23/breaking-former-israeli-defense-minister-confirms-israeli-collaboration-isis-syria/

    Hey utu,

    WOW! That is amazing – I mean an Israeli official publicly stating that Daesh apologized for an attack on their forces.

    That boggles the mind! They don’t apologize to anybody – I mean, they even kill off rival groups like Nusra and Al-Qaeda without batting an eye.

    That is some seriously astonishing stuff. Thanks a thousand for the links!

    Peace.

    Read More
    • Replies: @utu
    "That boggles the mind! They don’t apologize to anybody"

    What do you know about ISIS and Takfiri and where from is your knowledge? Your mind is boggled because you do not know what really is going on. Actually you do not want to know. Admit it, Talha, that your life seems to be better by your choice of not wanting to know.

    Who they really are, who is funding them, who provides weapons? You do not know how many news are really correct. Say about the beheadings? You can't believe those videos done in front of the green screen. How many bombings are real? This would be if you did not see the first 40 seconds:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CRZyHUr9YWM

    Do you think that the ISIS fighters are a bunch of real Takfiri idealist? Even muslims are not that stupid. No, they need to be paid good money like everybody else. The best fighters among them are mercenaries. Some of them must support their families and keep sending money to them. Yes, there are some useful idiots among them who become suicided (some of them by being patsy and being tricked) but the main core knows who are their real paymasters. They stuff themselves with amphetamines to keep going. Allah is not carrying them through the heat of battle. Amphetamine does.

    Saudi prince arrested over two tonnes of amphetamines being loaded on his private jet after Lebanese officials foil the biggest drug smuggling attempt in its history
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3290143/Saudi-prince-arrested-two-tonnes-amphetamines-loaded-private-jet-Lebanese-officials-foil-biggest-drug-smuggling-attempt-history.html

     

    Where do you think we get information that ISIS claimed responsibility for this or that? Do they have YT channel or what? Even if there is a channel claiming to be ISIS why wasn't it shut down and why should we believe it is really them? Them, who are really them?

    "Leave ISIS alone" is what you get from this article about Israel military view on ISIS

    Israeli Officers: You’re Doing ISIS Wrong
    http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/05/22/israeli-officers-to-trump-youre-doing-isis-wrong-215172

    ISIS was created just like Al Qaeda and Al Nusra or like Osama's mujahideen's in Afghanistan or like Muslim Brotherhood many decades earlier to serve particular purpose which is more often than not aligned with the interest of Israel, America but rarely ever with the interests of Arabs and Muslims. Why Hamas was created? To undermine very effective and internationally supported secular PLO. These are relatively simple operational games that are being set up and then played. They require some operational sophistication on the part of security apparatus of various countries but, believe me, it is nothing new. It has been done before. Brits were doing it through out their empire. Russia's Okhrana was doing it by setting up anti Tsar anarchist and terrorist cells. Brits are still doing it through MI5/MI6. Mossad is doing it from the day it was created. NKVD/KGB/FSB doing it. And obviously CIA. Nothing new under the sun including the gullibility of the public.
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  93. @reiner Tor

    The state security apparatus is always the main beneficiary of terror.
     
    Communist partisans/resistance fighters/terrorists/whatever during WW2 used essentially acts of terror (like shooting a German officer in the Paris Metro) in order to provoke reprisals from the Germans, which would then turn the population against the Germans and make them join the communists.

    Over time, the communists often got stronger, because most other resistance groups didn't do such reckless terrorism (for fear of provoking reprisals against the civilians), so the communists seemed the most effective anti-German opposition, while the others were often seen as "doing nothing".

    Another example is UCK vs. Rugova, where Rugova was increasingly seen as - you guessed it - "doing nothing".

    ISIS has the same dynamic with al-Qaeda, now nobody wants to join al-Qaeda any more, since ISIS is seen as cooler and more effective among disgruntled Muslim youths. Essentially that is the goal of ISIS - to get support (money and volunteers) from the Muslim masses both in the West and in the Muslim world. Actually, that is the main goal of any terror organization. Changing the policies of their targets is secondary, and usually they want to make those policies worse, not better (from their population's point of view). Because the worse those policies are, the better it is for the terrorist organization.

    Because the worse those policies are, the better it is for the terrorist organization.

    I agree that’s their goal, but it’s problematic imo how that assessment is used in mainstream discourse…it’s used as an argument against cutting off Muslim immigration, targeted profiling measures (e.g. it’s just how ridiculous with airport controls, how even someone like my 70-year old father gets treated as a potential terrorist), putting pressure on Muslim communities…instead we’re told we have to be even more open, even more tolerant towards Muslims, so they don’t get alienated and won’t support killing us. That’s just perverse imo.

    Read More
    • Replies: @iffen
    instead we’re told we have to be even more open, even more tolerant towards Muslims

    When I was young we called a situation like this a cod-lock. If you allow more immigration you increase the size of the pool from which the terrorists are drawn. If you tighten down on immigration or freedom of movement, the backlash will just produce more terrorists from the existing pool.

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  94. iffen says:
    @German_reader

    Because the worse those policies are, the better it is for the terrorist organization.
     
    I agree that's their goal, but it's problematic imo how that assessment is used in mainstream discourse...it's used as an argument against cutting off Muslim immigration, targeted profiling measures (e.g. it's just how ridiculous with airport controls, how even someone like my 70-year old father gets treated as a potential terrorist), putting pressure on Muslim communities...instead we're told we have to be even more open, even more tolerant towards Muslims, so they don't get alienated and won't support killing us. That's just perverse imo.

    instead we’re told we have to be even more open, even more tolerant towards Muslims

    When I was young we called a situation like this a cod-lock. If you allow more immigration you increase the size of the pool from which the terrorists are drawn. If you tighten down on immigration or freedom of movement, the backlash will just produce more terrorists from the existing pool.

    Read More
    • Replies: @German_reader

    If you tighten down on immigration or freedom of movement, the backlash will just produce more terrorists from the existing pool.
     
    If Muslims got violent because of immigration restrictions, they would just confirm that their goal was taking over all along anyway and that their main loyalty is towards their co-religionists, not with the country they're living in.
    Anyway, from my point of view a complete, permanent stop of Muslim immigration is necessary, otherwise things will escalate to much worse levels in 10-20 years time.
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  95. @iffen
    instead we’re told we have to be even more open, even more tolerant towards Muslims

    When I was young we called a situation like this a cod-lock. If you allow more immigration you increase the size of the pool from which the terrorists are drawn. If you tighten down on immigration or freedom of movement, the backlash will just produce more terrorists from the existing pool.

    If you tighten down on immigration or freedom of movement, the backlash will just produce more terrorists from the existing pool.

    If Muslims got violent because of immigration restrictions, they would just confirm that their goal was taking over all along anyway and that their main loyalty is towards their co-religionists, not with the country they’re living in.
    Anyway, from my point of view a complete, permanent stop of Muslim immigration is necessary, otherwise things will escalate to much worse levels in 10-20 years time.

    Read More
    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    Essentially, the immigration will continue until they form a majority. If we want to avoid that, we'll need to confront them, sooner or later. The more we wait, the harder it will get. It's difficult to find a silver lining here.
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  96. reiner Tor says: • Website
    @German_reader

    If you tighten down on immigration or freedom of movement, the backlash will just produce more terrorists from the existing pool.
     
    If Muslims got violent because of immigration restrictions, they would just confirm that their goal was taking over all along anyway and that their main loyalty is towards their co-religionists, not with the country they're living in.
    Anyway, from my point of view a complete, permanent stop of Muslim immigration is necessary, otherwise things will escalate to much worse levels in 10-20 years time.

    Essentially, the immigration will continue until they form a majority. If we want to avoid that, we’ll need to confront them, sooner or later. The more we wait, the harder it will get. It’s difficult to find a silver lining here.

    Read More
    • Agree: German_reader
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  97. melanf says:

    Father of Manchester bomber posted in 2013 pro-Nusra message on FB: “”My greetings to Al Nusra, the victorious over disbelief”

    Read More
    • Replies: @German_reader
    If true, this would somewhat complicate the "His relatives reported him to authorities" line the media are pushing.
    Or maybe his father was angry that he'd declared loyalty to ISIS instead of al-Qaida? Sort of like people get into rows about their favorite football clubs.
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  98. @melanf
    Father of Manchester bomber posted in 2013 pro-Nusra message on FB: ""My greetings to Al Nusra, the victorious over disbelief"
    https://twitter.com/HaraldDoornbos/status/867798158822170624

    If true, this would somewhat complicate the “His relatives reported him to authorities” line the media are pushing.
    Or maybe his father was angry that he’d declared loyalty to ISIS instead of al-Qaida? Sort of like people get into rows about their favorite football clubs.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    Hey GR,

    It may not complicate things too much. Remember, the US and UK are at times tacitly supporting Al-Qaida and Nusra in Syria, but not necessarily Daesh. There are approved terrorists and unapproved terrorists. Gotta keep track of the details.

    And yes, UK security forces might have been OK if the son went off to fight for the approved team.

    Peace.
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  99. utu says:
    @Talha
    Hey utu,

    WOW! That is amazing - I mean an Israeli official publicly stating that Daesh apologized for an attack on their forces.

    That boggles the mind! They don't apologize to anybody - I mean, they even kill off rival groups like Nusra and Al-Qaeda without batting an eye.

    That is some seriously astonishing stuff. Thanks a thousand for the links!

    Peace.

    “That boggles the mind! They don’t apologize to anybody”

    What do you know about ISIS and Takfiri and where from is your knowledge? Your mind is boggled because you do not know what really is going on. Actually you do not want to know. Admit it, Talha, that your life seems to be better by your choice of not wanting to know.

    Who they really are, who is funding them, who provides weapons? You do not know how many news are really correct. Say about the beheadings? You can’t believe those videos done in front of the green screen. How many bombings are real? This would be if you did not see the first 40 seconds:

    Do you think that the ISIS fighters are a bunch of real Takfiri idealist? Even muslims are not that stupid. No, they need to be paid good money like everybody else. The best fighters among them are mercenaries. Some of them must support their families and keep sending money to them. Yes, there are some useful idiots among them who become suicided (some of them by being patsy and being tricked) but the main core knows who are their real paymasters. They stuff themselves with amphetamines to keep going. Allah is not carrying them through the heat of battle. Amphetamine does.

    Saudi prince arrested over two tonnes of amphetamines being loaded on his private jet after Lebanese officials foil the biggest drug smuggling attempt in its history

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3290143/Saudi-prince-arrested-two-tonnes-amphetamines-loaded-private-jet-Lebanese-officials-foil-biggest-drug-smuggling-attempt-history.html

    Where do you think we get information that ISIS claimed responsibility for this or that? Do they have YT channel or what? Even if there is a channel claiming to be ISIS why wasn’t it shut down and why should we believe it is really them? Them, who are really them?

    “Leave ISIS alone” is what you get from this article about Israel military view on ISIS

    Israeli Officers: You’re Doing ISIS Wrong

    http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/05/22/israeli-officers-to-trump-youre-doing-isis-wrong-215172

    ISIS was created just like Al Qaeda and Al Nusra or like Osama’s mujahideen’s in Afghanistan or like Muslim Brotherhood many decades earlier to serve particular purpose which is more often than not aligned with the interest of Israel, America but rarely ever with the interests of Arabs and Muslims. Why Hamas was created? To undermine very effective and internationally supported secular PLO. These are relatively simple operational games that are being set up and then played. They require some operational sophistication on the part of security apparatus of various countries but, believe me, it is nothing new. It has been done before. Brits were doing it through out their empire. Russia’s Okhrana was doing it by setting up anti Tsar anarchist and terrorist cells. Brits are still doing it through MI5/MI6. Mossad is doing it from the day it was created. NKVD/KGB/FSB doing it. And obviously CIA. Nothing new under the sun including the gullibility of the public.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    Hey utu,

    No problems with much of what you are saying. If Daesh didn't exist, our governments would need to create them to keep things rolling. They are like "Goldstein" in 1984. And I agree - I have massive doubts about all the videos and stuff that are produced because of how outlandish or bizarre they are.

    My info comes more from the scholastic side of things; I'm a hundred percent sure these guys are completely ignorant of our tradition except the mere surface. Of that, I have zero doubts. They are post-modern nihilists to the core, as Prof. Oliver Roy pointed out.

    On the political side of things, it's tough to keep track of stuff. Which is why I rely on folks like you to provide this great information! :)

    Bro, keep the links and videos coming - this is good stuff!

    Peace.
    , @German_reader

    Do you think that the ISIS fighters are a bunch of real Takfiri idealist? Even muslims are not that stupid. No, they need to be paid good money like everybody else. The best fighters among them are mercenaries.
     
    Not everything's about money, that's just the typical misunderstanding of Western materialists. I have a hard time myself seeing how people can still believe in an apocalyptic religious cult like ISIS, but many adherents clearly believe in their ideology as an answer to a genuinely felt longing for meaning. Secondary motivations may play a role (e.g. adventure or the chance of aquiring some sex slaves), but I see no reason why we shouldn't believe ISIS members when they claim to believe they're doing God's work. Similar phenomena have happened throughout history (e.g. the rule of terror of the Münster anabaptists or the Taiping rising in China).
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  100. Talha says:
    @German_reader
    If true, this would somewhat complicate the "His relatives reported him to authorities" line the media are pushing.
    Or maybe his father was angry that he'd declared loyalty to ISIS instead of al-Qaida? Sort of like people get into rows about their favorite football clubs.

    Hey GR,

    It may not complicate things too much. Remember, the US and UK are at times tacitly supporting Al-Qaida and Nusra in Syria, but not necessarily Daesh. There are approved terrorists and unapproved terrorists. Gotta keep track of the details.

    And yes, UK security forces might have been OK if the son went off to fight for the approved team.

    Peace.

    Read More
    • Replies: @melanf

    Remember, the US and UK are at times tacitly supporting Al-Qaida and Nusra in Syria, but not necessarily Daesh
     
    In 2013 Nusra and ISIS worked together.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  101. Talha says:
    @utu
    "That boggles the mind! They don’t apologize to anybody"

    What do you know about ISIS and Takfiri and where from is your knowledge? Your mind is boggled because you do not know what really is going on. Actually you do not want to know. Admit it, Talha, that your life seems to be better by your choice of not wanting to know.

    Who they really are, who is funding them, who provides weapons? You do not know how many news are really correct. Say about the beheadings? You can't believe those videos done in front of the green screen. How many bombings are real? This would be if you did not see the first 40 seconds:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CRZyHUr9YWM

    Do you think that the ISIS fighters are a bunch of real Takfiri idealist? Even muslims are not that stupid. No, they need to be paid good money like everybody else. The best fighters among them are mercenaries. Some of them must support their families and keep sending money to them. Yes, there are some useful idiots among them who become suicided (some of them by being patsy and being tricked) but the main core knows who are their real paymasters. They stuff themselves with amphetamines to keep going. Allah is not carrying them through the heat of battle. Amphetamine does.

    Saudi prince arrested over two tonnes of amphetamines being loaded on his private jet after Lebanese officials foil the biggest drug smuggling attempt in its history
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3290143/Saudi-prince-arrested-two-tonnes-amphetamines-loaded-private-jet-Lebanese-officials-foil-biggest-drug-smuggling-attempt-history.html

     

    Where do you think we get information that ISIS claimed responsibility for this or that? Do they have YT channel or what? Even if there is a channel claiming to be ISIS why wasn't it shut down and why should we believe it is really them? Them, who are really them?

    "Leave ISIS alone" is what you get from this article about Israel military view on ISIS

    Israeli Officers: You’re Doing ISIS Wrong
    http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/05/22/israeli-officers-to-trump-youre-doing-isis-wrong-215172

    ISIS was created just like Al Qaeda and Al Nusra or like Osama's mujahideen's in Afghanistan or like Muslim Brotherhood many decades earlier to serve particular purpose which is more often than not aligned with the interest of Israel, America but rarely ever with the interests of Arabs and Muslims. Why Hamas was created? To undermine very effective and internationally supported secular PLO. These are relatively simple operational games that are being set up and then played. They require some operational sophistication on the part of security apparatus of various countries but, believe me, it is nothing new. It has been done before. Brits were doing it through out their empire. Russia's Okhrana was doing it by setting up anti Tsar anarchist and terrorist cells. Brits are still doing it through MI5/MI6. Mossad is doing it from the day it was created. NKVD/KGB/FSB doing it. And obviously CIA. Nothing new under the sun including the gullibility of the public.

    Hey utu,

    No problems with much of what you are saying. If Daesh didn’t exist, our governments would need to create them to keep things rolling. They are like “Goldstein” in 1984. And I agree – I have massive doubts about all the videos and stuff that are produced because of how outlandish or bizarre they are.

    My info comes more from the scholastic side of things; I’m a hundred percent sure these guys are completely ignorant of our tradition except the mere surface. Of that, I have zero doubts. They are post-modern nihilists to the core, as Prof. Oliver Roy pointed out.

    On the political side of things, it’s tough to keep track of stuff. Which is why I rely on folks like you to provide this great information! :)

    Bro, keep the links and videos coming – this is good stuff!

    Peace.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  102. @utu
    "That boggles the mind! They don’t apologize to anybody"

    What do you know about ISIS and Takfiri and where from is your knowledge? Your mind is boggled because you do not know what really is going on. Actually you do not want to know. Admit it, Talha, that your life seems to be better by your choice of not wanting to know.

    Who they really are, who is funding them, who provides weapons? You do not know how many news are really correct. Say about the beheadings? You can't believe those videos done in front of the green screen. How many bombings are real? This would be if you did not see the first 40 seconds:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CRZyHUr9YWM

    Do you think that the ISIS fighters are a bunch of real Takfiri idealist? Even muslims are not that stupid. No, they need to be paid good money like everybody else. The best fighters among them are mercenaries. Some of them must support their families and keep sending money to them. Yes, there are some useful idiots among them who become suicided (some of them by being patsy and being tricked) but the main core knows who are their real paymasters. They stuff themselves with amphetamines to keep going. Allah is not carrying them through the heat of battle. Amphetamine does.

    Saudi prince arrested over two tonnes of amphetamines being loaded on his private jet after Lebanese officials foil the biggest drug smuggling attempt in its history
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3290143/Saudi-prince-arrested-two-tonnes-amphetamines-loaded-private-jet-Lebanese-officials-foil-biggest-drug-smuggling-attempt-history.html

     

    Where do you think we get information that ISIS claimed responsibility for this or that? Do they have YT channel or what? Even if there is a channel claiming to be ISIS why wasn't it shut down and why should we believe it is really them? Them, who are really them?

    "Leave ISIS alone" is what you get from this article about Israel military view on ISIS

    Israeli Officers: You’re Doing ISIS Wrong
    http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/05/22/israeli-officers-to-trump-youre-doing-isis-wrong-215172

    ISIS was created just like Al Qaeda and Al Nusra or like Osama's mujahideen's in Afghanistan or like Muslim Brotherhood many decades earlier to serve particular purpose which is more often than not aligned with the interest of Israel, America but rarely ever with the interests of Arabs and Muslims. Why Hamas was created? To undermine very effective and internationally supported secular PLO. These are relatively simple operational games that are being set up and then played. They require some operational sophistication on the part of security apparatus of various countries but, believe me, it is nothing new. It has been done before. Brits were doing it through out their empire. Russia's Okhrana was doing it by setting up anti Tsar anarchist and terrorist cells. Brits are still doing it through MI5/MI6. Mossad is doing it from the day it was created. NKVD/KGB/FSB doing it. And obviously CIA. Nothing new under the sun including the gullibility of the public.

    Do you think that the ISIS fighters are a bunch of real Takfiri idealist? Even muslims are not that stupid. No, they need to be paid good money like everybody else. The best fighters among them are mercenaries.

    Not everything’s about money, that’s just the typical misunderstanding of Western materialists. I have a hard time myself seeing how people can still believe in an apocalyptic religious cult like ISIS, but many adherents clearly believe in their ideology as an answer to a genuinely felt longing for meaning. Secondary motivations may play a role (e.g. adventure or the chance of aquiring some sex slaves), but I see no reason why we shouldn’t believe ISIS members when they claim to believe they’re doing God’s work. Similar phenomena have happened throughout history (e.g. the rule of terror of the Münster anabaptists or the Taiping rising in China).

    Read More
    • Replies: @utu
    Foreign militants working for Daesh (ISIL/ISIS) have apparently started to desert after the terrorist movement’s leadership decided to drastically decrease the fighters’ monthly wages, according to the Alsumaria TV channel.
    https://sputniknews.com/middleeast/201601261033707985-daesh-pay-cut-desertion/

    Yes, there are believers there. They are nothing w/o their handlers. Concentrate on the handlers. In every movement there are useful idiots who will do the same for free what others would have done for money only. The useful idiots are being used. Using useful idiots is very immoral (2n Cat. Imperative), BTW. Idiots should be helped to stop being idiots instead of pushing them deeper into their idiocy. But there are always the handers. They are the evils doers. Focus on them. Probably they are not that far away. Don't need to look for them somewhere in Syria.
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  103. utu says:
    @German_reader

    Do you think that the ISIS fighters are a bunch of real Takfiri idealist? Even muslims are not that stupid. No, they need to be paid good money like everybody else. The best fighters among them are mercenaries.
     
    Not everything's about money, that's just the typical misunderstanding of Western materialists. I have a hard time myself seeing how people can still believe in an apocalyptic religious cult like ISIS, but many adherents clearly believe in their ideology as an answer to a genuinely felt longing for meaning. Secondary motivations may play a role (e.g. adventure or the chance of aquiring some sex slaves), but I see no reason why we shouldn't believe ISIS members when they claim to believe they're doing God's work. Similar phenomena have happened throughout history (e.g. the rule of terror of the Münster anabaptists or the Taiping rising in China).

    Foreign militants working for Daesh (ISIL/ISIS) have apparently started to desert after the terrorist movement’s leadership decided to drastically decrease the fighters’ monthly wages, according to the Alsumaria TV channel.

    https://sputniknews.com/middleeast/201601261033707985-daesh-pay-cut-desertion/

    Yes, there are believers there. They are nothing w/o their handlers. Concentrate on the handlers. In every movement there are useful idiots who will do the same for free what others would have done for money only. The useful idiots are being used. Using useful idiots is very immoral (2n Cat. Imperative), BTW. Idiots should be helped to stop being idiots instead of pushing them deeper into their idiocy. But there are always the handers. They are the evils doers. Focus on them. Probably they are not that far away. Don’t need to look for them somewhere in Syria.

    Read More
    • Replies: @German_reader
    I don't believe that ISIS was created by western security services or the Israelis, if you mean to imply that. It's true that western policy in the region has aided, at times quite directly, jihadi groups and helped bring about the conditions for their flourishing...but that's different from claiming it's all some conspiracy.
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  104. @utu
    Foreign militants working for Daesh (ISIL/ISIS) have apparently started to desert after the terrorist movement’s leadership decided to drastically decrease the fighters’ monthly wages, according to the Alsumaria TV channel.
    https://sputniknews.com/middleeast/201601261033707985-daesh-pay-cut-desertion/

    Yes, there are believers there. They are nothing w/o their handlers. Concentrate on the handlers. In every movement there are useful idiots who will do the same for free what others would have done for money only. The useful idiots are being used. Using useful idiots is very immoral (2n Cat. Imperative), BTW. Idiots should be helped to stop being idiots instead of pushing them deeper into their idiocy. But there are always the handers. They are the evils doers. Focus on them. Probably they are not that far away. Don't need to look for them somewhere in Syria.

    I don’t believe that ISIS was created by western security services or the Israelis, if you mean to imply that. It’s true that western policy in the region has aided, at times quite directly, jihadi groups and helped bring about the conditions for their flourishing…but that’s different from claiming it’s all some conspiracy.

    Read More
    • Agree: reiner Tor
    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    I think it's generally a good policy not to get too conspiratorial in this. As you wrote, there is ample evidence for occasional direct support of jihadis, and of a policy of providing indirect support for all but the most fanatical among them (basically for all but ISIS). It's not totally impossible that there is a more direct link between the Israelis and ISIS, but to be honest, it's not very likely, and even if true, there's precious little evidence of this. What is sure is that ISIS doesn't want to incur the wrath of the Israelis and their backers - they probably know that once it happens, they're done.

    Basically by claiming the most improbable conspiracies, conspiracy theorists discredit any opposition to the disastrous policies. In the case of 911, conspiracy theories have made it difficult to talk about failures of immigration policies, blowbacks for support of Israel, blowbacks for wars started in the Middle East, or negligence on the part of the Bush administration (Dubya received a warning from the FBI about an imminent attack, but chose to ignore it). Investigation of the latter would have turned up evidence (if there was any) of it being an "inside job", but by claiming something for which there was no evidence at all, conspiracy theorists discredited the whole idea of an investigation. (OK, not that there was much push for it in establishment circles, but still.)

    And they do crowd out sane opposition points of view. For example I participated in 911 debates several years ago, and I could easily find a large number of photos of WTC7 right before its collapse which showed how badly damaged it was. A few months ago I tried to google the same photos (OK, I didn't try too hard, just maybe one minute), and all I came up was conspiracy theorist websites showing the building from another angle, purported to show that the building could only have been demolished. (I was searching for a Facebook comment, and after not finding the picture, I decided not to make that comment at all. I'm anyway reluctant to make comments on Facebook under my real name.)

    I actually think the 911 conspiracy theorists are actively promoted by Google (although the slow crowding out of sane sources for pictures with conspiracy theorist websites might have natural reasons, I dunno). At the very least, they aren't suppressed, while we know Google actively manages its search results wherever it deems it politically important (like "American inventors" being all black etc.), so it's curious it finds nothing wrong with 911 conspiracy theories. Obviously those theories don't harm TPTB at all, and might actually be quite useful to them.
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  105. utu says:

    I don’t believe that ISIS was created by western security services or the Israelis, if you mean to imply that.

    Yes, I know. It is the core of your Weltanschauung. Cuckenshauung?

    Read More
    • Replies: @German_reader
    Calling me a "cuck" isn't an argument. It's not like I don't agree to a large extent that the role of western states and of Israel in the region has been destructive, there certainly is a lot to the claim that they have deliberately worked for the destruction of state power in Iraq and Syria (and would like to do the same in Iran), with the empowerment of jihadis seen as a means to achieve that. But still, I don't believe that Islamists are just stupid dupes without agency of their own...they use western support for their own goals, and shouldn't be underestimated.
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  106. @utu
    I don’t believe that ISIS was created by western security services or the Israelis, if you mean to imply that.

    Yes, I know. It is the core of your Weltanschauung. Cuckenshauung?

    Calling me a “cuck” isn’t an argument. It’s not like I don’t agree to a large extent that the role of western states and of Israel in the region has been destructive, there certainly is a lot to the claim that they have deliberately worked for the destruction of state power in Iraq and Syria (and would like to do the same in Iran), with the empowerment of jihadis seen as a means to achieve that. But still, I don’t believe that Islamists are just stupid dupes without agency of their own…they use western support for their own goals, and shouldn’t be underestimated.

    Read More
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  107. melanf says:
    @Talha
    Hey GR,

    It may not complicate things too much. Remember, the US and UK are at times tacitly supporting Al-Qaida and Nusra in Syria, but not necessarily Daesh. There are approved terrorists and unapproved terrorists. Gotta keep track of the details.

    And yes, UK security forces might have been OK if the son went off to fight for the approved team.

    Peace.

    Remember, the US and UK are at times tacitly supporting Al-Qaida and Nusra in Syria, but not necessarily Daesh

    In 2013 Nusra and ISIS worked together.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    Hey melanf,

    Yup - and then they didn't. They are now shooting at each other. That's what happens with extremist splinter groups, they tend to...splinter.

    Peace.
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  108. Talha says:
    @melanf

    Remember, the US and UK are at times tacitly supporting Al-Qaida and Nusra in Syria, but not necessarily Daesh
     
    In 2013 Nusra and ISIS worked together.

    Hey melanf,

    Yup – and then they didn’t. They are now shooting at each other. That’s what happens with extremist splinter groups, they tend to…splinter.

    Peace.

    Read More
    • Replies: @utu
    That’s what happens with extremist splinter groups, they tend to…splinter.

    That made me think of Protestantism. There are 30,000 of them.
    http://www.ncregister.com/blog/scottericalt/we-need-to-stop-saying-that-there-are-33000-protestant-denominations
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  109. utu says:
    @Talha
    Hey melanf,

    Yup - and then they didn't. They are now shooting at each other. That's what happens with extremist splinter groups, they tend to...splinter.

    Peace.

    That’s what happens with extremist splinter groups, they tend to…splinter.

    That made me think of Protestantism. There are 30,000 of them.

    http://www.ncregister.com/blog/scottericalt/we-need-to-stop-saying-that-there-are-33000-protestant-denominations

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anon
    Have you read the article? The brunt is in the title.
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  110. @Daniel Chieh
    He makes good money telling people what they want to hear. Within China, he's often sarcastically given awards for his "special work for the 3rd Rocket Division" or something like that, for "deluding the West into underestimating the threat from China."

    Its not going to happen. China has many, many problems but a collapse is not in the cards.

    Add Ambrose Evans-Pritchard to that list.

    Also George Friedman, of course.

    Though in fairness those other two have other accomplishments up their sleeves apart from being wrong about China.

    Read More
    • Replies: @reiner Tor

    Though in fairness those other two have other accomplishments up their sleeves apart from being wrong about China.
     
    Like, being wrong about other things, too?
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  111. reiner Tor says: • Website
    @Anatoly Karlin
    Add Ambrose Evans-Pritchard to that list.

    https://twitter.com/akarlin88/status/332654542665682945

    Also George Friedman, of course.

    Though in fairness those other two have other accomplishments up their sleeves apart from being wrong about China.

    Though in fairness those other two have other accomplishments up their sleeves apart from being wrong about China.

    Like, being wrong about other things, too?

    Read More
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  112. @German_reader

    Is it acceptable for these bombers to target the families of US/UK politicians that lied their countries into war and thus destroyed hundreds of thousands of lives in the ME?
     
    Somehow I doubt that would really offend many of the regular commenters here that much...some might even cheer if someone like Cherie Blair got killed by Islamists. One of the things that so absolutely enrages me about Islamist terrorists is actually just this...they don't target representatives of the elite (like left-wing terror groups like the Baader-Meinhof gang often did), they deliberately engage in totally indiscriminate killing of civilians, of ordinary citizens whose influence on the political process is limited and who in many cases probably were even opposed to military interventions in the Mideast (and of course this is very convenient for well-protected elite members as well...it's easy for them to say that one just has to live with the terror threat).
    Anyway, measures of collective punishment like those advocated by Taleb certainly raise a lot of moral problems...but in some situations they might conceivably be necessary.

    Sailer has also repeatedly suggested making the families of terrorists partially culpable.

    http://takimag.com/article/four_ways_to_save_europe_steve_sailer/

    Fourth, Europeans need to adapt their legal system to the nonindividualistic culture of Muslims. For example, the threat of a jail term might not deter a Muslim terrorist who expects to flee back to Syria and/or collect his 72 virgins.

    Cultures with more experience dealing with Muslims, whether Hindu or other Muslims, typically wind up using various forms of collective punishment to persuade senior Muslims to control their young bravos.

    Read More
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  113. Latest news from the Putlerreich:

    “The Russian Federal Security Service has detained four members of a terrorist group that consists of citizens of Russia and countries of the Central Asian region on May 25, 2017 in Moscow. They were preparing terrorist attacks on Moscow transport infrastructure using improvised explosive devices,” the FSB said in a statement.

    The group was part of Islamic State (IS, formerly ISIS/ISIL) terrorist organization and was managed from the territory of Syria, the statement adds.

    Read More
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  114. reiner Tor says: • Website
    @German_reader
    I don't believe that ISIS was created by western security services or the Israelis, if you mean to imply that. It's true that western policy in the region has aided, at times quite directly, jihadi groups and helped bring about the conditions for their flourishing...but that's different from claiming it's all some conspiracy.

    I think it’s generally a good policy not to get too conspiratorial in this. As you wrote, there is ample evidence for occasional direct support of jihadis, and of a policy of providing indirect support for all but the most fanatical among them (basically for all but ISIS). It’s not totally impossible that there is a more direct link between the Israelis and ISIS, but to be honest, it’s not very likely, and even if true, there’s precious little evidence of this. What is sure is that ISIS doesn’t want to incur the wrath of the Israelis and their backers – they probably know that once it happens, they’re done.

    Basically by claiming the most improbable conspiracies, conspiracy theorists discredit any opposition to the disastrous policies. In the case of 911, conspiracy theories have made it difficult to talk about failures of immigration policies, blowbacks for support of Israel, blowbacks for wars started in the Middle East, or negligence on the part of the Bush administration (Dubya received a warning from the FBI about an imminent attack, but chose to ignore it). Investigation of the latter would have turned up evidence (if there was any) of it being an “inside job”, but by claiming something for which there was no evidence at all, conspiracy theorists discredited the whole idea of an investigation. (OK, not that there was much push for it in establishment circles, but still.)

    And they do crowd out sane opposition points of view. For example I participated in 911 debates several years ago, and I could easily find a large number of photos of WTC7 right before its collapse which showed how badly damaged it was. A few months ago I tried to google the same photos (OK, I didn’t try too hard, just maybe one minute), and all I came up was conspiracy theorist websites showing the building from another angle, purported to show that the building could only have been demolished. (I was searching for a Facebook comment, and after not finding the picture, I decided not to make that comment at all. I’m anyway reluctant to make comments on Facebook under my real name.)

    I actually think the 911 conspiracy theorists are actively promoted by Google (although the slow crowding out of sane sources for pictures with conspiracy theorist websites might have natural reasons, I dunno). At the very least, they aren’t suppressed, while we know Google actively manages its search results wherever it deems it politically important (like “American inventors” being all black etc.), so it’s curious it finds nothing wrong with 911 conspiracy theories. Obviously those theories don’t harm TPTB at all, and might actually be quite useful to them.

    Read More
    • Agree: German_reader
    • Replies: @German_reader

    Basically by claiming the most improbable conspiracies, conspiracy theorists discredit any opposition to the disastrous policies
     
    Yes, excactly, those outlandish (and unlikely) theories are a gift to the establishment because they make it easier to paint their opponents as deranged loons. In Germany the mainstream media used similar tactics in regard to the "refugee" invasion...they took bizarre and manifestly false rumours about "refugees" from social media networks (e.g. "refugees" catch dogs and horses to slaughter them), gave them much attention and ridiculed them...all the while ignoring the many cases of extremely violent crimes (rape, gang rape etc.) committed by "refugees".
    , @utu
    improbable conspiracies

    Claiming that various intelligence agencies including US, UK and Israel in particular are behind support (on all levels, including conception and creation) of radical Muslim organizations and associated terrorists groups is an improbable conspiracy is the indication of a bad faith or a compromise of mental faculties. There is plenty of indirect as well as some direct evidence that this conspiracy is slam dunk true. One cannot make the sense of the reality of the Middle East since WWII w/o taking this conspiracy into account. This is a conspiracy because many people, agents of state, organizations are involve on different levels of different governments including quasi and pseudo rogue groups created for the sake of deniability. This is a conspiracy because it is kept secret and all possible efforts are made to prevent leaking information to the media.
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  115. China’s economic boom is based on the government literally forcing private banks to write loans that can never be paid back. Simple math says that such a model has to fail eventually. Massive private sector debt always leads to crisis, it did in the case of Japan, the US and Europe and will eventually in China as well. The differences are that China will hit the crisis point with their private debt at around 300 to 400 percent of GDP as opposed to 225% in the case of Japan or 180% in the case of the USA and that China will be much less able to deal with a massive economic crisis than Japan, the US and Europe were.

    China can probably keep it going for another 20 years, maybe 30. But look out below after that.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Productivity gains in China are still robust. So forced loans go towards building roads and real estate that are used well, not ghost cities despite media portrayal.
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  116. Anon says: • Disclaimer
    @utu
    That’s what happens with extremist splinter groups, they tend to…splinter.

    That made me think of Protestantism. There are 30,000 of them.
    http://www.ncregister.com/blog/scottericalt/we-need-to-stop-saying-that-there-are-33000-protestant-denominations

    Have you read the article? The brunt is in the title.

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  117. @reiner Tor
    I think it's generally a good policy not to get too conspiratorial in this. As you wrote, there is ample evidence for occasional direct support of jihadis, and of a policy of providing indirect support for all but the most fanatical among them (basically for all but ISIS). It's not totally impossible that there is a more direct link between the Israelis and ISIS, but to be honest, it's not very likely, and even if true, there's precious little evidence of this. What is sure is that ISIS doesn't want to incur the wrath of the Israelis and their backers - they probably know that once it happens, they're done.

    Basically by claiming the most improbable conspiracies, conspiracy theorists discredit any opposition to the disastrous policies. In the case of 911, conspiracy theories have made it difficult to talk about failures of immigration policies, blowbacks for support of Israel, blowbacks for wars started in the Middle East, or negligence on the part of the Bush administration (Dubya received a warning from the FBI about an imminent attack, but chose to ignore it). Investigation of the latter would have turned up evidence (if there was any) of it being an "inside job", but by claiming something for which there was no evidence at all, conspiracy theorists discredited the whole idea of an investigation. (OK, not that there was much push for it in establishment circles, but still.)

    And they do crowd out sane opposition points of view. For example I participated in 911 debates several years ago, and I could easily find a large number of photos of WTC7 right before its collapse which showed how badly damaged it was. A few months ago I tried to google the same photos (OK, I didn't try too hard, just maybe one minute), and all I came up was conspiracy theorist websites showing the building from another angle, purported to show that the building could only have been demolished. (I was searching for a Facebook comment, and after not finding the picture, I decided not to make that comment at all. I'm anyway reluctant to make comments on Facebook under my real name.)

    I actually think the 911 conspiracy theorists are actively promoted by Google (although the slow crowding out of sane sources for pictures with conspiracy theorist websites might have natural reasons, I dunno). At the very least, they aren't suppressed, while we know Google actively manages its search results wherever it deems it politically important (like "American inventors" being all black etc.), so it's curious it finds nothing wrong with 911 conspiracy theories. Obviously those theories don't harm TPTB at all, and might actually be quite useful to them.

    Basically by claiming the most improbable conspiracies, conspiracy theorists discredit any opposition to the disastrous policies

    Yes, excactly, those outlandish (and unlikely) theories are a gift to the establishment because they make it easier to paint their opponents as deranged loons. In Germany the mainstream media used similar tactics in regard to the “refugee” invasion…they took bizarre and manifestly false rumours about “refugees” from social media networks (e.g. “refugees” catch dogs and horses to slaughter them), gave them much attention and ridiculed them…all the while ignoring the many cases of extremely violent crimes (rape, gang rape etc.) committed by “refugees”.

    Read More
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  118. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @Greasy William
    China's economic boom is based on the government literally forcing private banks to write loans that can never be paid back. Simple math says that such a model has to fail eventually. Massive private sector debt always leads to crisis, it did in the case of Japan, the US and Europe and will eventually in China as well. The differences are that China will hit the crisis point with their private debt at around 300 to 400 percent of GDP as opposed to 225% in the case of Japan or 180% in the case of the USA and that China will be much less able to deal with a massive economic crisis than Japan, the US and Europe were.

    China can probably keep it going for another 20 years, maybe 30. But look out below after that.

    Productivity gains in China are still robust. So forced loans go towards building roads and real estate that are used well, not ghost cities despite media portrayal.

    Read More
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  119. utu says:
    @reiner Tor
    I think it's generally a good policy not to get too conspiratorial in this. As you wrote, there is ample evidence for occasional direct support of jihadis, and of a policy of providing indirect support for all but the most fanatical among them (basically for all but ISIS). It's not totally impossible that there is a more direct link between the Israelis and ISIS, but to be honest, it's not very likely, and even if true, there's precious little evidence of this. What is sure is that ISIS doesn't want to incur the wrath of the Israelis and their backers - they probably know that once it happens, they're done.

    Basically by claiming the most improbable conspiracies, conspiracy theorists discredit any opposition to the disastrous policies. In the case of 911, conspiracy theories have made it difficult to talk about failures of immigration policies, blowbacks for support of Israel, blowbacks for wars started in the Middle East, or negligence on the part of the Bush administration (Dubya received a warning from the FBI about an imminent attack, but chose to ignore it). Investigation of the latter would have turned up evidence (if there was any) of it being an "inside job", but by claiming something for which there was no evidence at all, conspiracy theorists discredited the whole idea of an investigation. (OK, not that there was much push for it in establishment circles, but still.)

    And they do crowd out sane opposition points of view. For example I participated in 911 debates several years ago, and I could easily find a large number of photos of WTC7 right before its collapse which showed how badly damaged it was. A few months ago I tried to google the same photos (OK, I didn't try too hard, just maybe one minute), and all I came up was conspiracy theorist websites showing the building from another angle, purported to show that the building could only have been demolished. (I was searching for a Facebook comment, and after not finding the picture, I decided not to make that comment at all. I'm anyway reluctant to make comments on Facebook under my real name.)

    I actually think the 911 conspiracy theorists are actively promoted by Google (although the slow crowding out of sane sources for pictures with conspiracy theorist websites might have natural reasons, I dunno). At the very least, they aren't suppressed, while we know Google actively manages its search results wherever it deems it politically important (like "American inventors" being all black etc.), so it's curious it finds nothing wrong with 911 conspiracy theories. Obviously those theories don't harm TPTB at all, and might actually be quite useful to them.

    improbable conspiracies

    Claiming that various intelligence agencies including US, UK and Israel in particular are behind support (on all levels, including conception and creation) of radical Muslim organizations and associated terrorists groups is an improbable conspiracy is the indication of a bad faith or a compromise of mental faculties. There is plenty of indirect as well as some direct evidence that this conspiracy is slam dunk true. One cannot make the sense of the reality of the Middle East since WWII w/o taking this conspiracy into account. This is a conspiracy because many people, agents of state, organizations are involve on different levels of different governments including quasi and pseudo rogue groups created for the sake of deniability. This is a conspiracy because it is kept secret and all possible efforts are made to prevent leaking information to the media.

    Read More
    • Replies: @reiner Tor

    Claiming that various intelligence agencies including US, UK and Israel in particular are behind support (on all levels, including conception and creation) of radical Muslim organizations and associated terrorists groups is an improbable conspiracy
     
    There's no evidence of the words I highlighted in bold italics, and it's dishonest of you to conflate the support some of these organizations receive* with being founded by and mere marionettes of the Western and/or Israeli intelligence services.

    Essentially you have to posit that Muslims are not humans and have no agency of their own, or even if they do, they must be incapable of organizing any extremist organization of their own volition.

    *Not all of them. At least one of them, ISIS, is the target of a bombing campaign, which the previous administration started voluntarily, under no obligation, and which the present administration continued.

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  120. reiner Tor says: • Website
    @utu
    improbable conspiracies

    Claiming that various intelligence agencies including US, UK and Israel in particular are behind support (on all levels, including conception and creation) of radical Muslim organizations and associated terrorists groups is an improbable conspiracy is the indication of a bad faith or a compromise of mental faculties. There is plenty of indirect as well as some direct evidence that this conspiracy is slam dunk true. One cannot make the sense of the reality of the Middle East since WWII w/o taking this conspiracy into account. This is a conspiracy because many people, agents of state, organizations are involve on different levels of different governments including quasi and pseudo rogue groups created for the sake of deniability. This is a conspiracy because it is kept secret and all possible efforts are made to prevent leaking information to the media.

    Claiming that various intelligence agencies including US, UK and Israel in particular are behind support (on all levels, including conception and creation) of radical Muslim organizations and associated terrorists groups is an improbable conspiracy

    There’s no evidence of the words I highlighted in bold italics, and it’s dishonest of you to conflate the support some of these organizations receive* with being founded by and mere marionettes of the Western and/or Israeli intelligence services.

    Essentially you have to posit that Muslims are not humans and have no agency of their own, or even if they do, they must be incapable of organizing any extremist organization of their own volition.

    *Not all of them. At least one of them, ISIS, is the target of a bombing campaign, which the previous administration started voluntarily, under no obligation, and which the present administration continued.

    Read More
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  121. utu says:

    Muslims are not humans and have no agency of their own

    Do you see Muslim’s humanity only through their evil acts?

    This is very disingenuous argument of yours.

    You can’t determine wether somebody possesses agency or not by looking whether he/she is doing A or not-A. Most Muslims’ actual agency is exhibited in their daily lives in which they want have nothing to do with the organizations that act against general Muslim interests. If in your extended family nobody is a criminal and nobody in prison by your own logic you should question whether your family possess and agency. Are they human at all? Still if somebody got in trouble what his mother would ask first? Whose influence did he get under? Bad company? Some Muslims also fall under the influence of bad company. Capital C company.

    ISIS, is the target of a bombing campaign

    Really?

    When the 2013 attempt to impose the no fly zone over Syria after the alleged gas attack in Summer 2013 failed (because Obama/Putin…) the grand project to overthrow Assad stalled. Several months later in winter 2013/2014 the new product was rolled out and was presented to the world wide audience via MSM by showing mind boggling atrocities of brand new organization with shifting name from IS, ISIL, ISIS to Daesh to keep Syria on the from burner. Few month later in the Spring 2015 a coalition was created to bomb this evil organization including the Syrian territory. But the vilification of this monster did not bring the desired no-fly zone over Syria. A no fly zone worked so well in Libya but somehow it could not be imposed in Syria. The coalition had no UN mandate and most European countries (including UK) did not want to participate. The bombing of the actual ISIS targets was rather anemic if at all and Assad forces could be bombed only “by mistake,” which is not very effective way to change a regime. Assad was holding on and bombing ISIS was detrimental to the objective of overthrowing him. After all weapons were flowing via ISIS territory to Al Nusra and “moderate” fighters from Jordan were providing weapons to ISIS. The next attempt to finally finish Syria off was the creation of the refugee crisis and the refugee invasion on Europe. However, it was defused by Merkel and nothing came out of it and few weeks later Putin moved to Syrian in September 2015. The repeat of Libya scenario did not work. Though ISIS is still very useful. They give an excellent pretext to put troops on the ground in Syria. Special forces at first. Pretty much everybody special forces are there. But as long as there are Russians there there will be no-fly zone akin to the ones down over Libya.

    Read More
    • Replies: @reiner Tor

    If in your extended family nobody is a criminal and nobody in prison by your own logic you should question whether your family possess and agency. Are they human at all?
     
    No, the correct analogy is if already my extended family is known for its infatuation with and heroization of criminal lifestyles, and if many members of the family are already in prison for multiple violent felonies including gang membership and murder, but you'd still claim that my family is peaceful, and there's no chance that my family members formed a gang, and you'd insist it's all a big police conspiracy where the police is using some of my family members as marionettes to get a bigger budget or to target some of my neighbors, but in reality my family is not prone to criminality at all.

    In any event, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

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  122. reiner Tor says: • Website
    @utu
    Muslims are not humans and have no agency of their own

    Do you see Muslim's humanity only through their evil acts?

    This is very disingenuous argument of yours.

    You can't determine wether somebody possesses agency or not by looking whether he/she is doing A or not-A. Most Muslims' actual agency is exhibited in their daily lives in which they want have nothing to do with the organizations that act against general Muslim interests. If in your extended family nobody is a criminal and nobody in prison by your own logic you should question whether your family possess and agency. Are they human at all? Still if somebody got in trouble what his mother would ask first? Whose influence did he get under? Bad company? Some Muslims also fall under the influence of bad company. Capital C company.



    ISIS, is the target of a bombing campaign

    Really?

    When the 2013 attempt to impose the no fly zone over Syria after the alleged gas attack in Summer 2013 failed (because Obama/Putin...) the grand project to overthrow Assad stalled. Several months later in winter 2013/2014 the new product was rolled out and was presented to the world wide audience via MSM by showing mind boggling atrocities of brand new organization with shifting name from IS, ISIL, ISIS to Daesh to keep Syria on the from burner. Few month later in the Spring 2015 a coalition was created to bomb this evil organization including the Syrian territory. But the vilification of this monster did not bring the desired no-fly zone over Syria. A no fly zone worked so well in Libya but somehow it could not be imposed in Syria. The coalition had no UN mandate and most European countries (including UK) did not want to participate. The bombing of the actual ISIS targets was rather anemic if at all and Assad forces could be bombed only "by mistake," which is not very effective way to change a regime. Assad was holding on and bombing ISIS was detrimental to the objective of overthrowing him. After all weapons were flowing via ISIS territory to Al Nusra and "moderate" fighters from Jordan were providing weapons to ISIS. The next attempt to finally finish Syria off was the creation of the refugee crisis and the refugee invasion on Europe. However, it was defused by Merkel and nothing came out of it and few weeks later Putin moved to Syrian in September 2015. The repeat of Libya scenario did not work. Though ISIS is still very useful. They give an excellent pretext to put troops on the ground in Syria. Special forces at first. Pretty much everybody special forces are there. But as long as there are Russians there there will be no-fly zone akin to the ones down over Libya.

    If in your extended family nobody is a criminal and nobody in prison by your own logic you should question whether your family possess and agency. Are they human at all?

    No, the correct analogy is if already my extended family is known for its infatuation with and heroization of criminal lifestyles, and if many members of the family are already in prison for multiple violent felonies including gang membership and murder, but you’d still claim that my family is peaceful, and there’s no chance that my family members formed a gang, and you’d insist it’s all a big police conspiracy where the police is using some of my family members as marionettes to get a bigger budget or to target some of my neighbors, but in reality my family is not prone to criminality at all.

    In any event, we’ll just have to agree to disagree.

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    • Agree: German_reader
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  123. Talha says:
    @iffen
    – but have you heard of anyone losing their jobs over this?

    No, not currently, but don't you remember the wholesale clean-out of the intelligence community after no WMDs were found in Iraq?

    Dang – looks like Egypt actually might be making people accountable for security lapses related to terrorism:
    “Egypt removed the security chief of a province south of Cairo where Islamic State militants last week killed 29 Christians traveling to a remote monastery in the desert, an acknowledgment of the lapses by authorities in dealing with the attack.”

    http://www.foxnews.com/world/2017/05/30/egypt-sacks-local-security-chief-after-attack-on-christians.html

    Peace.

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