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There are some pretty strange ideas floating around that Russia is obligated to help Syria/Iran in their decades-long squabbles with Israel, and that Putin is “betraying his people” by not doing so.

Well, last time I checked, Putin is President of Russians, not Syrians/Iranians. Indeed, the term “сирийские братушки” (“Syrian brothers”) has long been an ironic meme on Runet to denote the absurdity of such appeals. I don’t even disagree with the assertion that Putin betrayed his people. It’s just that it happened in 2014, not on any of the dozen occasions when he failed to wage a nuclear war with Israel to indulge some Westerners’ peculiar ideological fantasies about Russia as the antipode to the Zionist menace.

In any case, Putin never even reacted to the outright American murders of Russian mercenaries in Syria, so it would if anything be absurd – not to mention supremely insulting (to Russians) – if he was to do more for Iranian ones.

Alexander Mercouris spelled out why Russia has no rational incentives to take a side in Arab/Israeli squabbles back in 2017:

It is not just that the Western media can be relied up never to criticise any action Israel takes however wrong or outrageous it might be. The dismal truth is that none of the world’s major governments do so either. Not only does the US invariably support Israel whatever it does and however outrageous its actions might be, but the days when Israeli actions would come in for strong criticism from the governments of Russia and China are long gone.

The Russians and the Chinese have their hardheaded practical reasons for this change of stance. Since the Arabs are incapable of taking a united stand against Israel, there is little sense in them doing so. Besides the Russians were badly burnt during the period from roughly 1967 to 1985, when they took a strong stand against Israel only to be blamed by the Arabs for their own failures, and when they found that Arab Jihadis were far keener to fight them in Afghanistan than to fight the Israelis. Needless to say after that experience the Russians have no intention of sticking their necks out for the Arabs again.

And more recently:

When following the 1967 Six Days War the Russians did commit themselves wholeheartedly to one side in the Arab-Israeli conflict – backing the Arabs diplomatically, arming the Arabs intensively, sending a strong military force to defend Egypt in 1970 from Israeli air attacks, and breaking off diplomatic relations with Israel – the result for Moscow was a catastrophe.

The USSR’s large Jewish community became alienated, the USSR found that by making an enemy of Israel it had further poisoned its relations with the Western powers at precisely the time when it was seeking detente with them, and the USSR quickly discovered that its Arab ‘allies’ in whom it had invested so much were both ungrateful and treacherous, so that by 1980 the USSR’s entire position in the Middle East had completely collapsed.

The final straw came after the Soviet intervention in Afghanistan in 1979, when volunteers from across the Arab world rushed to fight the Russians in Afghanistan, in a way that they had never shown the slightest indication of wanting to do against Israel on behalf of the Palestinians.

Not surprisingly, the Russians have therefore since the mid-1980s been determined never to become directly involved in any part of the Arab-Israel conflict again.

Thus whilst Russia maintains good relations with the Arab states, and whilst Russia continues to voice support for the Palestinians, Russia has always striven to maintain good relations with Israel as well, and has forged significant economic links with Israel.

One additional point I would make it is that many of these fervent opponents of the AngloZionists were also some of the most active at propagating the meme about how intervening in the Ukraine in 2014 was an AngloZionist trap to draw Russia into WW3 and praising the 666D chess brilliance of the Minsk Accords, while shouting down its critics as hysterical panickers, if not outright sixth columnists.

So sorry to break it to them that Russia is not going to fight a war with Israel, or even cut economic ties, for the sake of the desert training arena. Actually not very sorry at all. The rise in oil prices is to be looked forwards to.

 
• Category: Foreign Policy • Tags: Israel, Russia, Syrian Civil War 
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  1. Jayce says:

    The absolute state of the alt-media these days:

    “Man, I sure do hate America, always involving themselves in these pointless drawn-out ME conflicts”
    “Also, I sure do hate Russia now, never involving themselves in these pointless drawn-out ME conflicts enough”

  2. Pretty cynical take imo. One doesn’t need to have any warm feelings towards Arabs or Muslims (I certainly don’t) to recognize that more chaos and destruction of state structures in the Mideast should be an undesirable outcome. It would be stupid for Russia to get dragged in a war with the US or Israel over the Mideast, but a war for regime change against Iran (which seems increasingly likely) can’t be in Russia’s interests either.

    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
    , @utu
  3. Watching the Saker writhe is vaguely amusing.

    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
  4. @German_reader

    That’s a very different scenario.

    When/if that is imminent (it can’t be done off the fly), I would support provisioning Iran with S-400s, Bastions, and a lot of Sunburn missiles.

    Perhaps it would also be feasible to give the Russian Air Force a good exercise over Iranian airspace.

    • Replies: @German_reader
  5. Of course Russia should fight/retaliate first and foremost when Russians are killed. And while I would personally love Russia to wipe out Israel, of course Russia is not obligated to fight them and it’s not in your interest to do so.

    HOWEVER, inviting Netanyahu to the parade is a bit much. It’s simply tasteless and something that Putin could have done without, and this would not have hurt Russia’s interests.

    Not to mention that when Israel bombs Syria, they hurt not only Syria, but Russia’s reputation as well. You don’t have formal obligation to defend them but they are your ally, you have two bases there and the Israelis bomb Syria in the most blatant and insolent manner. Again, yes – Russia’s reputation is already hurt much more by what it allows every day in the Donbass. But still, Israel’s unpunished constant aggression is something that hurts it further, too.

    • Agree: Felix Keverich
  6. @Anatoly Karlin

    Ok, I misunderstood then. I agree that by themselves Israel’s current attacks in Syria aren’t worth it for Russia to risk confrontation with the US and Israel. But they might well be the first steps towards an escalation of hostilities with Iran that ends in a regime change project. And in some way (not necessarily direct intervention) Russia would have to react to that.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    , @Sean
  7. Beckow says:

    So what. Precisely. Getting involved in other people’s fights is stupid and almost always backfires.

    To the Afghan experience, I would add the insane Arab-Moslem fanaticism in urging the West to destroy Yugoslavia, and the pathological Moslem hatred for Serbs. All it took is for some Western media types to throw out a few ‘Moslems are suffering‘ memes and the Arab street went hysterical.

    Time for a payback. What goes around, comes around. Let them fight their own fights. Oil at $80 would reshuffle the geo-politics a lot more than a few missiles in the Syrian desert. It was nicely symbolic that Putin and Netanyahu were joined by the Serbian President.

  8. @Daniel Chieh

    In fairness, The Saker is not one of the people yelling treason (though he is deeply disappointed).

    • Replies: @utu
  9. @Beckow

    and the Arab street went hysterical.

    Did it? I know Saudi-Arabia and Iran supported the Bosnians, but was this a popular issue in the Arab world?
    I always had the impression that the ones most sympathetic to the Bosnians were western multiculti types who regarded Bosnians as the new Jews or something of the sort and the Serbs as Nazis.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    , @Johnny Rico
  10. @Beckow

    Except in Syria it is Christians, crypto Christians (alawites) and normal (not-goatfucking, not particularly religious) sunnis fighting the same muslims who cheered the bombing of Serbia. And facing genocide if they fail. Which they will, if Israel follows on its threats and kills Assad, as much as I would like to believe that they can’t mossad the Assad.

    It’s not in Russia’s interest to risk war with Israel but the same is doubly more true for Israel, it’s definitely not in their interest to seek war with Russia. Russia hasn’t fired a shot against Israel, all the aggression is coming from one side, and if Russia simply supplies S-300 to the Syrian army the jewish psychopaths will bitch about it, but they have to be completely retarded to try and bomb it.

  11. There’s an old Social Matter article predicting the Russian aim would be to eternally play off the Jew, the Persian, and the Turk. While they’re engaged in a three way tug of war in the ME, Russia mediates between them and thus translates a weak hand into a strong one, since Russia gets to decide the ‘exception’ in the deadlock.

    I think that’s what the Kremlin’s aiming for, so Eurasianist boomers like the Saker who sees Russia as the Holy Orthodox Hammer which will nail the ‘Anglo-Zionist’ Empire is sadly mistaken.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    , @Anonymous
  12. neutral says:

    Putin is betraying his people not because of Iran or Syria, he is betraying his people by hosting Netanyahu in Russia.

    • Replies: @Lemurmaniac
  13. utu says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    Saker is dissimulating because he can’t face the magnitude of disappointment. That’s why her wrote his article ostensively about Skripals to redirect.

  14. @neutral

    Let’s face it; he’s a winded horse. Time for Karlin’s ‘dark Tsar’.

    • Replies: @Not Raul
  15. @German_reader

    I know Turks were enthusiastic about it, also plenty of Saudi Arabian and similar volunteers and especially money (Saudis built a lot of mosques in Bosnia since then, and I heard Bosnia was slowly moving in the Wahhabi direction), but I’m unsure of most Arab countries. Were Syrians enthusiastic about it?

  16. Kimppis says:

    Speaking of high oil prices, Russia’s federal budget is still based on an oil price of $40 (!), while Brent is almost at $80 per barrel and ruble is still weak. But the MSM told me that Russia was running out of “money”!?

  17. Bob007 says:

    Higher oil price is definitely a good thing for Russia.

  18. Talha says:
    @Beckow

    Let them fight their own fights.

    Amen to that. Write this in gold.

    Only add one corollary; don’t destroy relatively stable nations in the area for “muh Democray ‘n WMD”.

    Leave the Muslim world alone; don’t get involved in their fights. Hell, stop selling them weapons too. Way better for them if you do, they just use them to go bonkers on each other…like Yemen.

    Just stop. Urge politicians to stop getting involved in the ME, invading them, inviting them, selling them weapons. Just stop.

    Peace.

    Note: ‘Moslems are suffering‘ memes and the Arab street went hysterical.
    We didn’t need the MSM for that. I was alive at the time, the word was getting out of Sarajevo through Muslim outlets (we were circulating video tapes of what was going on, there were reliable Muslim non-profit orgs as well) – the West could have completely kept silent and it wouldn’t have mattered. Muslims responding by sending fighters from all over the world to help since their governments were incapable of doing anything (or unwilling). I actually keep up with daily feeds from a convert from the US who went and fought and ended up marrying a Bosnian sister.

  19. The current oil price is also quite good for America.

    High enough to be a major boon to producers (and their upstream suppliers, like me), but not high enough to cause major harm to consumers.

    Over $100 I would consider negative, but WTI is at $70 which is a Goldilocks price.

    Asphalt prices remain stubbornly high which is a real problem, particularly if Trump ever gets his infrastructure spending going (doubtful).

    Regarding the article itself, I don’t see the problem with Netanyahu in Moscow. Auschwitz was after all stopped by the Red Army, and many of Netanyahu’s constituents are the descendants of Great Patriotic War veterans. If Netanyahu’s grandfather hadn’t emigrated to Palestine in 1920, it’s quite likely the Germans would have killed him. Just about every Jew living in Poland in September 1939 was ultimately killed (by German Nazis…wouldn’t want to violate Poland’s new laws on the Holocaust).

    Israel occasionally bombs this and that thing in Syria, but that’s just what “serious” powers do these days. France, Britain, Iran, Russia, America, Turkey, etc. are all in on the act as well. Everyone agrees that you have to bomb…something…in Syria. What you bomb and why hardly seems to matter to anyone.

    As for the Faker’s fever dreams of Russia, of course the world’s undisputed military megapower and the axis around which the rest of the world revolves, decisively confronting the Anglo-Zionists…whatever. There’s a certain class of person whose primary worldview is simply hatred of America and Israel, as opposed to support of Russia (or whatever). The dwindling band of Western “anti-war activists” are generally like this as well. They oppose America’s wars, but not other people’s wars.

  20. Bibi went to Moscow and

    told lil’ Vlad

    “we have your Swiss bank account #’s”,

    and then he said,

    “now jump!”

    And lil’ Vlad asked,

    “how high?”

  21. Dmitry says:

    It is not just that the Western media can be relied up never to criticise any action Israel takes however wrong or outrageous it might be.

    Kind of a dumb comment (not from our venerable Karlin, but this guy he quotes).

    Most Western media has the bias towards anti-Israel reportage and also is obsessed with small stories in there that no-one would care about in another country – which is what creates a lot of obsession and anger, like on this website, from people who know nothing of the region, or even care particularly about Arab eudaimonia.

    It’s not on the same level as the Russophobia in the media, but has a kind of similar taste.

    When you are there (to live some months in Israel itself), you rapidly realize that not so much is actually happening there. It is quite a safe place overall. Even in terms of oppressed populations. Many Arabs are living richly there, living in large houses, and sitting outside in restaurant patios at expensive restaurants.

    Interesting situation of conflicts in a local level, that is useful for other countries probably if studied objectively, but not on any ‘world news’ levels.

    As for Israel’s actions. They are usually predictable, and even local politics has a similar predictable dynamic as America itself (liberal secular elite in opposition with more redneck population).

  22. utu says:
    @German_reader

    to recognize that more chaos and destruction of state structures in the Mideast should be an undesirable outcome

    Most observers and kibitzers on either side thought that Russia was trying to put the stop to the unfolding Yinon plan which was Israel driven but aided and abetted by the US and considered Russia’s action in Syria as a serious challenge to the American empire that was manifested by Israel’s impunity in the region. In a bigger picture this was about Russia’s attempt to restore the multipolar world.

    To say that Russia has “no rational incentives to take a side in Arab/Israeli squabbles” as AK says is both disingenuous and specious. It is not just about the identity of participants or even the real estate out there but about the imponderables of power which are credibility and trust. Just like America in words of Lavrov is not ‘agreement-worthy’ which she can easily afford because of her strength, Russia just demonstrated to the whole world, and Chinese are watching, she is not ‘alliance-worthy’ because of her weakness. Not only military weakness but doctrinal and ideological weakness of Russia’s spineless elites.

    Furthermore Russia demonstrated that its foreign policy is conducted w/o foresight and has an adventurist streak. Before going to Syria did they answer the question what would they do when Israel decides to put its foot down? Or did they have Martyanov there who convinced that that Israel ill be to intimidated by all these Russian Wunderwaffe missiles?

    Is it possible that Russia gained something from it, that there is a secret deal, that surrendering to Netanyahu instead to Trump is less hurtful and Russia will be now allowed to use the term ‘our Western partners’ not ironically? Anybody buys it?

    If Israel intensifies its actions during the World Cup we will definitively know that Russia is being still f. in the a. and the matter is unresolved, i..e. Russia did not capitulate yet. But if Israel gives Russia a breather to withdraw or scale down with some remnants of dignity then it will be a sure sign that Russia has capitulated.

    The situation is serious and still unclear in which AK’s smug cynical and oxymoronically triumphalist defeatism is sophomoric.

    • Agree: The Scalpel
  23. In any case, Putin never even reacted to the outright American murders of Russian mercenaries in Syria

    You refer to this from time to time but I wish you’d write a blog post detailing why you actually believe there have been a mass of Russian mercenaries(as in more than 30 in that incident) killed in Syria… because I don’t buy it.

    http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/american-fury-the-truth-about-the-russian-deaths-in-syria-a-1196074.html

    • Replies: @Bigly
    , @Anatoly Karlin
  24. Dmitry says:
    @German_reader

    What we know will happen (without need for speculation) is Trump is going to sanction Iran economically unilaterally, to contain the Iranian foreign policy (which they – Trump, Israel, and the Gulf Arab countries – see as expansionist).

    This could have some negative positions for Russia in the long-term, as Iran will eventually have less resources to buy purchases from Russia.

    In the medium-term, it could be positive, as Iran will be more restricted in countries it can purchase from, and more dependent on Russia.

    It could also lead to a rise in oil-price.

    From the political side, Putin was very happy with 2015 Iran deal, as thought it would be successful from arms containment point of view, and it also allows Iran to purchase weapons again from Russia.

    In the immediate picture, it will be EU who will lose economically, from the American sanctions on Iran. The negative impact on Russia, would be in an indirect way (and sometime after, if Iran starts to have less spending power).

  25. Dmitry says:
    @Lemurmaniac

    There’s an old Social Matter article predicting the Russian aim would be to eternally play off the Jew, the Persian, and the Turk. While they’re engaged in a three way tug of war in the ME, Russia mediates between them and thus translates a weak hand into a strong one, since Russia gets to decide the ‘exception’ in the deadlock.

    Yes although a cynical way to write it. They probably see it as ‘making friends with every different side’.

    The traditional way, since the times of the Russian empire, is to support build relations with both sides in local or tribal conflicts, and act as mediators. This is how the situation is still now in relation to Armenia and Azerbaijan.

    In the Israel and Iran situation, it is a maybe little more complicated due to the status of Israel as an outpost of Pindostan .

    However, it could be seen a lot of attempts from Putin to build warmer relations with both Iran and with Israel at the same time. So it’s obvious what the overall shape of policy is in their minds.

    The relations with Iran will also start to warm in the future (it is possibly that soon there could be visa-free travel with Iran). They are trying to persuade Israel to join (free-trade zone) in the customs union, and it will be interesting if they eventually attempt to persuade Iran to join a free-trade zone.

  26. @Dmitry

    Most Western media has the bias towards anti-Israel reportage

    Sorry, but that’s just a tiresome pro-Israel propaganda point. US mainstream media definitely has a pro-Israel bias. In Germany you’ve got the Springer media conglomerate which actually obliges employees in their contracts to report positively about Israel (!). In Britain outlets like the Daily Telegraph are also quite pro-Israel. I don’t know how it’s in France, Italy etc., but I doubt all media there is anti-Israel.
    Are some Western media anti-Israel? Sure. But I still think that Israel gets away with way more dubious stuff than any Western country would (one just has to compare how demonized Poland and Hungary are). Those complaints about hostile media are just another manifestation of the Israelis’ “the entire world is full of antisemites who are against us for no reason at all” complex. Not credible anymore.

    • Agree: Bigly
  27. Talha says:
    @German_reader

    Completely agree; they allow Israeli government officials and ambassadors free air time to ask their views on things and throw them softball questions. Nobody else gets away with that kind of nonsense. The idea that US media is anti-Israel is complete nonsense.

    Here is Slick Bibi:

    And Ambassador Happy Boy:

    Peace.

  28. @Dmitry

    Mercouris might be thinking of Anglo media, which indeed does not criticize Israel much. The situation on the Continent (besides Germany) is quite different, where Israel is increasingly associated with “racism”, “apartheid”, and other allegedly very evil things.

    Most Western media has the bias towards anti-Israel reportage and also is obsessed with small stories in there that no-one would care about in another country – which is what creates a lot of obsession and anger, like on this website, from people who know nothing of the region, or even care particularly about Arab eudaimonia.

    This is a very weird tendency which is quite common, and it’s not just the media. There are many people with zero skin in the game (neither Jewish, Arabalonian, Mohammedan, nor Nazi) who are absolutely obsessed with Israel and Palestine.

    There was a politics forum I used to frequent with many such characters. I remember in particular a Dutchman and an Australian who were both pathologically obsessed with Israel and discussed almost nothing else. They were fervent anti-Zionists, and they weren’t antisemites either (both, of course, were strongly opposed to racism). I accused the Australian of being a Mohammedan, and he was surprised at the accusation and couldn’t understand why it was made.

    When pressed, such people will simply claim they’re opposed to colonialism, imperialism, racism, apartheid, etc. and other allegedly really evil things. But if you ask them what they think about the oppression of the Polisarios, Acehnese, Tamils, or whatever they draw a complete blank.

    An amusing trolling strategy when drawn into such a discussion is to state that you support the restoration of Outremer–the only question being whether you support the Hapsburg or Bourbon claim to the Kingdom of Jerusalem (naturally, only a barbarian would support the Lignese Savoyard claim…). :)

    That said you should distinguish between Israel proper and the Occupied Territories. The situation in the Occupied Territories is much worse for the Arabalonians than it is in Israel proper.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  29. utu says:

    Are some Western media anti-Israel? Sure.

    Give me an example of one. Check this out.

    TOP 5 MOST EGREGIOUS ANTI-ISRAEL HEADLINES IN THE INTERNATIONAL MEDIA

    https://www.jpost.com/Arab-Israeli-Conflict/Top-5-most-egregious-anti-Israel-headlines-in-the-international-media-464351

    1. “Tel Aviv shooting: Three killed in attack in shopping center” (BBC)

    2. “3 Palestinians killed as daily violence grinds on.” (CBS)

    3. “4 Israelis, 2 Palestinians dead in Jerusalem” (CNN)

    4. “Palestinian shot dead after fatal stabbing in Jerusalem; 2 Israeli victims also killed” (Al Jazeera)

    5. “Jordan slams Israel after radical Jews visit Islamic holy site” (AFP)

    Are we dealing with normal people? Does Zionism and Judaism inevitable lead to psychosis?

    • Replies: @Talha
  30. Talha says:
    @utu

    That is insane. Wow!

    Peace.

    • Replies: @utu
    , @Gabriel M
  31. Bigly says:
    @blahbahblah

    You refer to this from time to time but I wish you’d write a blog post detailing why you actually believe there have been a mass of Russian mercenaries(as in more than 30 in that incident) killed in Syria… because I don’t buy it.

    http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/american-fury-the-truth-about-the-russian-deaths-in-syria-a-1196074.html

    This article should be circulated more widely.

    Hundreds of Russian mercs killed by the Americans is a demoralizing disinformation.

    On top of that Spiegel investigation, competent open source intel organizations based in Russia which were quick to start naming the victims have come up with less than 30 names of Russian citizens killed after a month of the event, corroborating Spiegel’s findings.

  32. Dmitry says:
    @German_reader

    Most of the stories published on Western newspaper websites I read (for example when there is a terrorist attack), are in fact written with anti-Israel bias.

    You do not know this, as you do not know about the subject. However, I read the original story, and then later the version which is published in BBC website or New York Times. There will usually be context removed or additional irrelevant content added to create a view of condemnation.

    In Russian language media (serious media), the situation is a lot better and more dispassionate, without this one-sided style of writing, but just reporting the facts. At the same time, they troll sometimes in the picture selection. It is curious when Russian language media has become more reliable than English language on some topics.

    The most unreliable one to read any story on Israel is New York Times, BBC.

    You can see the media corrections which Israeli NGOs are working on. Notice the corrections are only read by very few people, while original stories read by many

    http://www.camera.org/article/topic/media-corrections/

    The funniest story I read on Israe was claiming that Israel opens a river dam to flood Gaza Strip. When I first read it, I originally believed myself (for a few seconds). And was checking quickly if there is any river near Gaza (no river)

    https://www.timesofisrael.com/false-israel-drowns-gaza-claims-sweep-internet/

    • Replies: @German_reader
  33. @Dmitry

    Notice the corrections are only read by very few people

    I looked at the first page of that camera.org site…it contains corrections for such “outrageous” statements as implicitly referring to Tel Aviv instead of Jerusalem as Israel’s capital…lol.
    I don’t even dispute that some media reports have an anti-Israel bias. But most of Western media reporting? Definitely not. At the very least, the anti-Israel side is more than balanced by media pushing pro-Israel views.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    , @Thorfinnsson
  34. Dmitry says:
    @German_reader

    Tel Aviv isn’t really a capital (there is no government functions or capital functions in the city). However, it is acceptable to call it the capital of Israel (this is common since Soviet times). Not an important correction.

    But on the bottom you can press the page number buttons, and see endless corrections on every kind of topic that are made, for years, and some are on the most important part of the story.

    I notice myself when I read the stories, how much is removed from the original versions. That doesn’t say there is not media which goes in the other direction of too positive to Israel (Fox News). Even that is kind of weird and unhealthy (how obsessed with Israel, although for positive reasons).

    The reality in Israel is a lot less exciting (in most weeks – not this week!) – in both positive and negative directions – than the media coverage. . If the media has an honest perspective, it would be reporting on more interesting stories around the world in most weeks.

  35. @German_reader

    You probably read German media and Anglo media.

    There’s a much stronger anti-Israel angle in Swedish media as an example. I don’t speak French, but my father does and reports that French media is a lot harsher on Israel than our press is (perhaps French Basque can confirm).

    And Jerusalem is the capital of Israel–it’s factually incorrect to claim it’s not. It’s just not the “international recognized” capital because of the insane modern custom not to accept the Right of Conquest.

  36. Dmitry says:
    @Thorfinnsson

    There was a politics forum I used to frequent with many such characters. I remember in particular a Dutchman and an Australian who were both pathologically obsessed with Israel and discussed almost nothing else. They were fervent anti-Zionists, and they weren’t antisemites either (both, of course, were strongly opposed to racism). I accused the Australian of being a Mohammedan, and he was surprised at the accusation and couldn’t understand why it was made.

    When pressed, such people will simply claim they’re opposed to colonialism, imperialism, racism, apartheid, etc. and other allegedly really evil things. But if you ask them what they think about the oppression of the Polisarios, Acehnese, Tamils, or whatever they draw a complete blank.

    It is human nature. Especially for these people, it is a type of entertainment.

    Some or even many people living in safe, wealthy countries need a area where they become angry about something, and therefore excite themselves. At the moment, some political areas are ‘more safe’ or socially acceptable in media to be angry about, depending on the countries in which you live. In Western Europe media, probably most popular topics people are angry about are Russia, America and Israel. It’s not racism, except in deciding what is a ‘socially acceptable’ area to be angry. It’s not socially accepted to be angry about South Africa yet, or about Mexico or Sudan. (There may be some who will start to become angry at China soon?)

    If you remove current socially acceptable countries, they will replace it with another country. I would believe before the 1990s, South Africa was the most popular in the group of topics people were angry about. Although ‘angry’ is maybe not the correct word – it is more like an area for people to forget their problems, and entertain themselves and to feel morally better than others.

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
  37. @Thorfinnsson

    There’s a much stronger anti-Israel angle in Swedish media as an example

    No offense, but who cares what Swedes think? Sweden is more of a meme than a country anyway, and they also were strongly against South Africa in the old days, so at least they’re consistent in their self-righteousness regarding foreign conflicts that shouldn’t be of interest to them.
    You may be right about French media. I’m just critical in general about claims of anti-Israeli bias…in the cases where I can check it, I find such accusations to be often exaggerated. And tbh I just can’t stand most of the people in Western countries who are big defenders of Israel. They usually are dumb, unpleasant fanatics who present a ridiculously one-sided view of the conflict (“tiny little Israel which never did anything wrong, valiantly defending itself against a sea of unthinking hatred…and oh btw, Palestinians don’t exist, they are an invented people!”), just as bad as the worst pro-Palestinian activists. Often also totally pc and “antiracist” on other matters…e.g. one of the biggest friends of Israel I’ve exchanged views with was a stupid CDU cuck…actually a member of the German-Israeli society…back in 2015 he then went on how he needed to report people to police because they had made racist statements against “refugees” on the net…
    For me, complaints about supposed anti-Israel bias are just another manifestation of “antiracism” and attempts to maintain taboos in discourse. Therefore I reject them.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    , @utu
    , @Thorfinnsson
  38. Glossy says: • Website

    So what? It means Karlin is a Jew lover and a neocon cockroach. That’s what.

    • LOL: Anatoly Karlin
    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    , @Anonymous
  39. @Dmitry

    Agreed.

    People like feeling like they’re fighting on behalf of a righteous cause, probably particularly Westerners. And people like being engaged and entertained. I can recall some times when I was a younger man where I confronted people (correctly) about some moral/righteous issue (not distant nonsense like Israel, things that actually mattered) and pressed the matter beyond a sensible point because it felt good.

    The betrayal of South Africa was particularly appalling and a sore subject for me. I have a number of Afrikaner business associates and feel for them. I hope they find a way to take back their country. All of the white people who were activists against Apartheid deserve to be hanged. I’ll give Jeremy Corbyn a pass since he triggers many of my enemies.

    • Agree: byrresheim
  40. @Glossy

    You’re a complete, utter, total loser.

    And have no sense of objectivity.

    Get bent.

    • Replies: @Glossy
  41. songbird says:

    Sweden is more of a meme than a country anyway, and they also were strongly against South Africa in the old days, so at least they’re consistent in their self-righteousness regarding foreign conflicts

    I wonder how much of that is consistency, and how much of it is the growing Muslim population channeling Sweden’s natural leftism. I presume the natural, unadulterated Swedish feeling towards Jews would be guilt-ridden at having stayed neutral during the war, or at having so many blond and blue-eyed people. I don’t think that last is far fetched, as I recently read an article at a mainstream entertainment site by a Jewish writer which at one point lamented that there was a Swedish actor (blond and blue-eyed) in a TV show.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    , @Thorfinnsson
  42. Dmitry says:
    @German_reader

    Doesn’t seem to correspond to my observation in English. The anti-Israel bias is very strongly in the left or liberal media in the English (and Spanish) language. (And then the too pro-Israel bias is in Fox News).

    Maybe Germany is a reversal or paradox situation. (Actually these paradox and political reversal situation exists on other topics, across quite a lot of countries, so I can imagine this is an interesting case in Germany).

    Actually I would like to learn German in the future so maybe I can comment on this topic in a few years.

  43. utu says:
    @German_reader

    No offense, but who cares what Swedes think? Sweden is more of a meme than a country anyway, and they also were strongly against South Africa in the old days, so at least they’re consistent in their self-righteousness regarding foreign conflicts that shouldn’t be of interest to them.

    Wow, this comes from the man who did not like AK’s cynicism and Real Politik. I would give credit to Swedes for standing up for principles and for being consistent. Since Folke Bernadotte they showed they tried to be fair in Jewish-Arab conflict as a neutral country and their help they gave to Jews during and after WWII does not support claims of their anti-Jewish bias. Certainly they showed courage and consistence and did not cuck out even though their liberalism was used against them and they were flooded with Arab and Muslim immigrants. Was it expected that this would turn them away from supporting Palestinians and become Zionists cucks according with the enemy-of-my-enemy-is-my- friend mechanism? It does not look that it worked. But certainly Sweden is not what it was during the cold war and under Olof Palme government. Since then neoliberalism and Zionism expanded their grip on politics and people’s minds in many countries partly because we had only one Sweden.

    • Replies: @Talha
    , @German_reader
  44. Dmitry says:
    @songbird

    Jews would be guilt-ridden at having stayed neutral during the war, or at having so many blond and blue-eyed people. I don’t think that last is far fetched,

    Have you been to Israel? I know Israel very well in a personal level. I am always surprised how many blonde people are there if you go out for a night (and how many brown people there, and even how many black people in not small proportion). That’s why I laugh at people seeing Israel as a racial state – as both a criticism and a applaudation. For me it’s (the Jews) one of the more multi-racial nationalities, and even often racially completely unlike from each other people in the same groups, pretending to be all the same.

    I also read a lot about ‘ethnostate’ (as positive for Israel). It is the world’s least successful ‘ethnostate’. Walking five minutes in somewhere like Spain or Poland – you see a far more mono-racial and homogenous ‘ethnostate’. If you walk for five minutes in Israel, you see about ten different coloured people.

    Also in Israel the interracial (but not inter-religious) couples are more common in my view there, than countries I have seen. So it would be very upsetting for ethnostate people to see this. If you want to see brown guys with blonde girlfriends. And even light guys with black African girlfriends.

    I think more accurate description for Israel is even a semi secular, semi theocracy-state, than as ethnostate. The people are divided according to religious categorization. But externally it results in the completely mix. For example, Arab Jews (who are looking identical to Arab Muslims) are on the opposite side of a fence, and even seeing themselves as enemies, to the Arab Muslims (who are physically their siblings).

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    , @songbird
  45. Dmitry says:
    @Dmitry

    As footnote – to go offtopic

    The people are divided according to religious categorization. But externally it results in the completely mix. For example, Arab Jews (who are looking identical to Arab Muslims) are on the opposite side of a fence, and even seeing themselves as enemies, to the Arab Muslims (who are physically their siblings).

    There’s a song by an Arab Muslim (Palestinian) singer about this topic.

    He sings about the Mizrahi Israelis (Arab Jews) and calls them as ‘Arabs who hate themselves’, or Arabs who are scared to tell people they are Arabs (like homosexuals who are scared to tell people they are homosexuals). It is the most racist (to Arabs) demographic there.

  46. Talha says:
    @utu

    Since Folke Bernadotte

    Swedes like my mother in law are still pissed off that a bunch of Zionist yahoos had the gall to murder him after his role in helping vulnerable Jewish prisoners.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @byrresheim
  47. songbird says:
    @Dmitry

    Have you been to Israel?

    I’m not that well traveled. The article I was referring to was written by an American Jew. It was mostly an American site, with an international presence.

    If you’re curious: I’ve actually never known a blond Jew (unless you count half-Jews) though I have known Jews married to blonds. Growing up, I knew many Jews – I’m pretty sure they were all Ashkenazi or Ashkenazi mix Most were pretty indistinguishable from Northern Europeans – one girl had red hair and blue eyes, but one fellow was small and dark and had curly hair. I’m pretty sure another was some sort of mulatto.

    Boston area has a fair amount of Jews. Mostly pretty indistinguishable from NW Euros. The odd one might evoke a Southern Italian or Greek. They don’t speak with an accent, like NYC Jews typically seem to do.

    When I was in college I knew a girl from Israel. She had a very odd combination of features. Very pale skin – almost like some Irish. I was amazed that her parents (if they were both so pale) could withstand the Israeli sun. Her nose was very stereotypically Semitic though. Very large – not just large for a girl.

  48. Glossy says: • Website
    @Thorfinnsson

    You must be another Jew lover and neocon cockroach.

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
  49. utu says:
    @Talha

    What they would like is that instead of the headline stating e.g., “Two Palestinians killed” it should be stated that the two Palestinians had it coming, they were terrorist and so on. Otherwise they will call it “MOST EGREGIOUS ANTI-ISRAEL HEADLINES.” Certainly they want a total control but one may still hope there is an element of bad conscience involved. They want to look better than they are which is normal among humans after all and they still care about what we think and feel about them. Meaning, that it can be or it will be worse.

    There is an army of busybodies who keep exerting pressure on media through typical Jewish activism and many think tanks that coordinate their efforts and it is not surprising that they are succeeding. One may wonder how many calls, tweets and so on a media outlet gets after stating “Two Palestinians killed” instead of “Two Palestinian terrorists killed.” It is hard to resits the onslaught. The coverage of Israel Arab conflict is less and less free. I do not even remember any reporting that had even a small hint of outrage at Israel’s action. We also know that underreporting is their main tool when they really go beyond the pale like during the recent turkey shoot at the border. Then the alleged Ghouta gas attack took it off the news.

    • Agree: Talha
  50. Does Russia (and China) have reason to wish to avoid the destruction of Iran?
    I think yes.
    Is Bibi willing to stop at driving the Persians out of Syria?
    I think not.
    Should Putin go to war with Imperial Washington because he may be forced to do so to defend Russia in the future?
    Of course not.

    Turkey already has a foot in both camps. Germany is next. Peace threatens to break out on the Korean peninsula. The Zempire is in steep decline. Time is on the side of Russia, China and Iran.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  51. If I were Putin, I would do everything in my power to lead Americans and Israelis to attack Iran. It would likely weaken western alliance as Europeans would see it is Iraq War 2.0. Since Iran is far more capable than Iraqis ever were, it would close Strait of Hormuz and badly damage Saudi oil facilities. Subsequent rise in oil prices would bolster Russian economy and piss off oil-importing nations (i.e. west European and east Asian countries) killing two flies with one hit. If Americans were crazy enough to actually go for regime change and deploy ground troops, all the better. Literally, nothing better can happen for Russia than the U.S. getting bogged down in yet another pointless war in the Middle East. Hell, if Putin had allowed the Americans to take down Assad in 2012 and 2013, the West would be busy dealing with the ensuing chaos and his hand would be much freer in Ukraine in 2014…

    • Replies: @Mikhail
  52. Dmitry says:
    @WorkingClass

    Does Russia (and China) have reason to wish to avoid the destruction of Iran?

    Destruction of Iran, of course is bad for Russia economically – although neither very plausible.

    Unilateral American sanctions on Iran. This will not be a large problem in the short-term, as Iran may become more dependent on purchasing from Russia. In the longer term, if it reduces their spending power, then it could be negative overall.

    If unilateral American sanctions reduce sales or production of Iranian oil, this could lead to an increase in oil prices all things equal.

  53. @blahbahblah

    In my articles on the Wagner affair (just search site:unz.com/akarlin wagner) I rejected both initial Kremlin propaganda that there were no deaths and Western/(+hysterical Russian nationalist) propaganda there were hundreds of deaths.

    In fact, my estimates (a few dozen deaths) were in the same ballpark as the later serious investigations.

    • Replies: @Triptamine
    , @Anonymous
  54. @Anatoly Karlin

    From what was written by Strelkov and co., the majority of the dead in the Wagner affair were mercenaries from the DNR. I.e. ethnic Russians, but not Russian citizens.

  55. Mikhail says: • Website

    Although US born, Netanyahu doesn’t carry on like such US supporters of Israel as Nikki Haley.

    https://www.eurasiareview.com/19042018-confronting-russia-in-syria-analysis/

    Far from being monolithic, the UN is subject to biases. Going back to the Cold War period, it was commonplace to hear pro-Israeli supporters in the US complain of biased UN resolutions and UN departments which slanted against the Jewish state. This sentiment lingers on. In the post-Soviet new world order, one finds some predominating biases against Russia at the UN. A point that relates to Russia’s stance on investigating the recently alleged chemical attack in Syria. It has been said that history has a way of repeating itself.

    Iran, Serbia, Israel and most other countries voted in favor of a Russian proposed UN resolution denouncing the glorification of Nazism. Canada, Kiev regime controlled Ukraine and the US were the only countries voting against it. A number of lackeys abstained with some others not showing up.

    As noted back in 2015:

    https://www.strategic-culture.org/news/2015/10/09/answering-russia-critics-on-syria.html

    Far from jumping into Syria without a carefully thought out plan, the Russian government has covered its angles well. This preparedness has included the meeting between Putin and Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu in Russia, shortly before the Russian airstrikes. Putin has followed with an acknowledgement that as a regional Mideast power, Israel has legitimate concerns which shouldn’t be overlooked.

    Netanyahu doesn’t see Russia in the same negative light as the Syrian government and (to a greater extent) its Lebanese Shiite Hezbollah and Iranian allies. Hence, he likely sees the Kremlin as a relatively good influence on an imperfect situation – with an understanding of what might regretfully happen if Syria’s government were to suddenly fall. In contrast to Netanyahu meeting Putin, the pro-Israeli Republican US presidential candidate Carly Fiorina, says that she would avoid Putin altogether in the role of American president. That stance serves to increase the possibility for an unintended conflict between Washington and Moscow.

    • Replies: @for-the-record
  56. Mikhail says: • Website
    @Realist Altrighter

    If I were Putin, I would do everything in my power to lead Americans and Israelis to attack Iran. It would likely weaken western alliance as Europeans would see it is Iraq War 2.0. Since Iran is far more capable than Iraqis ever were, it would close Strait of Hormuz and badly damage Saudi oil facilities. Subsequent rise in oil prices would bolster Russian economy and piss off oil-importing nations (i.e. west European and east Asian countries) killing two flies with one hit. If Americans were crazy enough to actually go for regime change and deploy ground troops, all the better. Literally, nothing better can happen for Russia than the U.S. getting bogged down in yet another pointless war in the Middle East. Hell, if Putin had allowed the Americans to take down Assad in 2012 and 2013, the West would be busy dealing with the ensuing chaos and his hand would be much freer in Ukraine in 2014…

    Russia militarily intervened in Syria in 2015, with Ukraine spiraling out of control a year earlier.

    Putin saw what has transpired in Iraq and Libya. Syria involves terrorists who’ve Russia as a target. Rightly or wrongly, the Kremlin apparently feels strong enough to simultaneously deal with Ukraine and Syria.

    The first part of the above highlighted somewhat reminds me of the Machiavellian minded belief that Israel served Soviet interests in the Mideast, on the basis that the Arabs wanted an arms supplier to confront the Jewish state. Without Israel, there wouldn’t be as much a need for the USSR went that logic.

    The Arabs haven’t been able to succeed in that goal, in addition to Egypt (under Sadat) dumping the USSR. Israel is a reality that includes some common interests with Russia.

  57. Chuck says:

    Putin’s cucked. Like pretty much everyone else in the world.

    Including the leadership of the sand peoples…

  58. @utu

    Since Folke Bernadotte they showed they tried to be fair in Jewish-Arab conflict

    No point in that imo. As far as I’m concerned, both Israel and the Palestinians can go to hell. Yes, the Palestinians suffered a serious injustice, and yes, it’s understandable Jews want their own state after their history as a horribly persecuted minority. But in the end, I find both sides thoroughly immoral and unpleasant…both the Palestinians with their Islamism and terrorism and the Israelis with their demented, religion-infused nationalism and land-grabbing greed are appalling. And both the Palestinians’ and Israelis’ coethnics and coreligionists in the West are actively working against the interests of white Europeans. So screw both of them.

    • Agree: Hyperborean
    • Replies: @Talha
    , @Thorfinnsson
    , @Bliss
  59. @Mikhail

    Although US born, Netanyahu

    He was born in Tel Aviv.

    • Replies: @Mikhail
  60. Not a bad week for Netanyahu — first Trump renounces the Iran deal and then Putin changes his mind on the S-300 for Syria:

    After Netanyahu Visit, Russia ‘Not in Talks’ With Syria to Supply S-300 System

    Russia is not in talks with Syria about supplying the Assad regime with its S-300 advanced air defense system and does not think they are needed, Vladimir Kozhin, an aide to Russian President Vladimir Putin, was quoted as saying on Friday in the Russian newspaper Izvestiya. Kozhin oversees military assistance to other countries.

    The comments follow Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s visit to Moscow this week, who presented to Putin “Israel’s obligation and right to defend itself against Iranian aggression, from Syrian territory.”

    The Syrian army has for years sought to obtain the S-300 system to counter Israeli air superiority, and Israel has in turn lobbied the Kremlin to refrain from supplying them. Iran received its first S-300 batteries in 2016, nearly a decade after Tehran paid for it.

    https://www.haaretz.com/middle-east-news/syria/russia-not-in-talks-with-syria-to-supply-s-300-system-1.6076063

    • Replies: @German_reader
  61. @for-the-record

    I wonder what’s Putin’s reasoning behind this decision…does he want the Iranians to get out of Syria because he thinks that would help in avoiding a regional war?

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  62. @Thorfinnsson

    I don’t speak French, but my father does and reports that French media is a lot harsher on Israel than ours is.

    Bravo to your father. Also what he told you is true, which is quite surprising if one considers the almost total J control on French mainstream media. I don’t remember the exact breakout from the top of my head, but it’s eaay to find the numbers on the internet. Out of the 6 or 7 media conglomerates that totally dominate the mediascene here, at least half of then are owned by Js (Draghi, Niel, etc.) or Maranos (Dassault). On top of that, the deck of hosts on public radio (France Inter/France Info) sounds like it is radio Tel Aviv. And yet, despite that, the general tone is more often than not pro-Palestinians rather than pro-Israelis. It is I believe a legacy of the overall sovok sympathies of the French journalistic caste.

    However regarding the domestic narrative it is an entirely different story. If you listened to France Info regularly you would end up believing that some right wing takeover of the country was about to happen and that 6 million Js were going to be sent to Le Stuthof.

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
  63. LondonBob says:
    @German_reader

    The British media used to be relatively critical of Israel, well some left wing sections. These days there seems to be some sort of ban on any reporting on Palestine unless something major happens and they have to. Given the British history of Jewish terrorism and strong pro Palestinian position of people it is depressing only RT seems to reflect British public opinion.

  64. Brabantian says: • Website

    Anatoly Karlin & Andrei Raevsky ‘the Saker’ both miss something important in their excuses for Putin, as Putin lets Israelis kill Iranians & Syrians … the AK-Saker ‘logic’ of theoretical Russian national interest, collapses before simple human psychology

    Arabs and Iranians are dying for Russians, but Russians let Israelis kill the Arabs and Iranians right in front of their eyes … How is this the action of humans with any moral fibre?

    OK, so Russia is in Syria to protect the Gazprom interests, guard its Mediterranean base, impede jihadis from Chechnya or whatever

    But Syrians and Iranians are DYING as they help Russians – It is just not the action of a friend or ally for Russians to watch them be killed by Israelis right in front of Russian eyes … Given Russians have decided to be there, they are involved, period … you watch killings under your nose, you are implicated

    It is utterly disgusting for the Arabs and Iranians to see the collusion of Putin with Israel, even denying them the S-300 defence equipment … The Arab / Iranian street sees the sad deal … ‘Putin’s Rabbi’ Berel Lazar of Mossad’s Chabad advising him; Russian oligarchs describing Putin as having a Jewish mother and legally Jewish, ‘Vladimir Jewtin’; about 20% of the Israeli military Russian-speaking, many of them Russian Orthodox Christian, from the 1990s Israeli importation of ‘tough Russians’ who claimed a Jewish ancestor, to offset the increasingly soyboy Israeli youth

    Tho some see too, that Putin did not even go in to protect fellow Russians in Donbass, despite the Odessa massacre and the atrocities that followed … there is just not a lot of honour in Moscow

    Regarding Afghanistan etc – Arabs and Muslims and jihadis are, like most people, opportunistic, looking for avenues where some kind of power can be won or just exercised

    The Palestinian cause has wide Arab street sympathy, but given the collusive nature of governments surrounding Israel, it is not easy for Arabs to see a place to which to travel, and reliably exercise effective power in a ‘fight against Israel’

    On the other hand, Afghanistan or Islamic State seemed like places where power could be exercised, one could ‘go there and do something’ without being quickly rounded up … the jihad in those cases having big backing and a field of opportunity

    • Replies: @Mikhail
    , @Anatoly Karlin
  65. Mikhail says: • Website
    @for-the-record

    Correction noted, with the added aside that Netanyahu spent a good deal of his early life in the US – thus explaining his fluent American accented English. He’s US educated at the grade school and college levels.

  66. LondonBob says:

    I agree with the general idea but the S300 is a key element to tool up your proxies so they can do their own fighting. Israel is a largely hostile country that offers nothing to Russia so quite why they should have a key input in to Russian foreign policy decisions I don’t know. Continual Israeli bombing would undermine Russian efforts and prestige, to a certain extent. Stability of MENA should be a concern across Europe. Iran, Iraq, Syria and Lebanon represent very decent markets to open up to trade, weapons sales etc. Then there is the obvious fact that it is zionist voices driving the anti Russian narrative, why bend over?

    Anyway the Soviet Union was athiestic, bankrupt ideologically and economically entity that of the course the Arabs would not seek to be aligned with.

    Still Israel demonstrated they can’t really harm Syria, or reverse the direction of the war, even without the S300, the WC is in a few weeks, US midterms in the Autumn and the decison can be revisited or used as a threat.

  67. Not Raul says:
    @Lemurmaniac

    Who would be the dark tsar? Kiriyenko?

  68. @Brabantian

    Erm… Iranians and Syrians are not “dying for Russians”, they are all dying for their own interests.

    Syrians – To preserve the regime, reunify the country; Iran – To extend their reach to the Mediterranean, an age-long Persian goal; Russia – For cheap training and establishing a presence in the Levant.

    Can I just randomly point out that Iran has not even recognized Crimea as part of Russia.

    Who is fighting for Russians? The Donbass. Those people really were betrayed by Putin. There is nobody to betray in Syria.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    , @for-the-record
  69. I have to say the optics of Netanyahoo’s visit to Moscow was just embarrassing. Syria is not a “training ground”, it’s Russia’s ally (to the extent that Russia has any allies at all): we have all sorts of bilateral agreements, we invested a lot of money in Syria, Syria even recognised Crimea as a part of Russia.

    Attacks on allies should not be tolerated. At the very least we must impose sanctions on Israel: this economic relationship benefits the Jews far more than it benefits Russians.

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    , @Dmitry
  70. Talha says:
    @German_reader

    Well that’s just great. Why don’t you guys, since you caused the problem in the first place, solve the problem tomorrow and carve out a similar region from Saxony or Bavaria where this persecuted minority can go (since we had relatively good relations before you dumped a bunch of yours on us).

    Then you can have the pleasure of having a nuclear-armed ethno-state with a bunker mentality in your midst. And if the local Germans resist, you can get all indignant about it and call them terrorists and make up for it by giving this ethno-state even more nuclear-armed submarines. That’ll help you assuage the guilt you have for what happened IN EUROPE. Not only in Europe but you brought to occupied Muslim lands:

    http://m.dw.com/en/germany-to-compensate-algerian-jewish-holocaust-survivors/a-42458534

    Except where local authorities were strong enough to resist:

    http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-hurowitz-moroccan-king-mohammed-v-20170425-story.html

    And you can also deal with the zealot cowboys in the US backing them up in the U.N. every time you try to condemn them and helping them always keep a technological edge over European armies.

    Otherwise, you guys can put these opinions where the sun doesn’t shine.

  71. @Glossy

    Yeah dude, you totally nailed it.

  72. @songbird

    I can confirm that Swedes feel guilty about staying neutral during the war. I routinely argue with my family members about this, as to me it’s clear Sweden’s WW2 policy was wise and successful.

  73. @German_reader

    No offense, but who cares what Swedes think? Sweden is more of a meme than a country anyway, and they also were strongly against South Africa in the old days, so at least they’re consistent in their self-righteousness regarding foreign conflicts that shouldn’t be of interest to them.

    :(

    My poor urheimat…

  74. @Felix Keverich

    How do you suggest Russia retaliate against Israel?

    • Replies: @Felix Keverich
  75. @German_reader

    Do not forget that there are Palestinian Christians, who are effectively the same people as Jesus Christ.

    We should liberate them from the Jewish yoke and restore Outremer.

    • Replies: @German_reader
    , @Anonymous
  76. Off-topic

    I read in a previous thread that German_reader is physically ill and made poor life choices and is thus poor.

    He is of course under no obligation to satisfy my curiosity, but what went wrong? I say this with sympathy and understanding as it could’ve easily happened to me and very nearly did.

    Ron Unz should add private messages and other messageboard features in light of our growing camaraderie.

    AK: I agree, that would be a good approach, but I am not sure the software is up for that short of giving everyone their own accounts, which would be a major change.
    Given its sensitivity, if German_reader doesn’t wish to indulge this discussion and says so, I will remove this post.

    • Agree: reiner Tor
    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    , @German_reader
  77. @French Basque

    You will be delighted to know (I think) that my father moved to France and chose to learn French as part of his pseudo-retirement.

    I despise foreign languages and thus will never learn French, but I do admire French civilization–particularly the cuisine. I have learned how to make all of the complex French sauces for instance.

    • Replies: @French Basque
  78. A typo on my part in my response to you #62 above: please read Stuthof not Struthof. By the way, aside from the usual J fantasies, this camp was were many French patriots were assassinated by the Germans, most notably Général Aubert Frère). He was the head of the ORA, the clandestine military resistance organization that was operating under the cover of the Armée d’Armistice, authorized by the 1940 armistice convention. He was arrested in 1943 because, unlike Colonel de Gaulle, he always refused to flee to London and wanted to fight the fight in France. A truly heroic patriot. May he rest in peace.

    We should liberate them from the Jewish yoke and restore Outremer.

    I will certainly second that.

    http://www.lysardent.fr/2015/03/05/14-mars-messe-de-requiem-pour-baudouin-iv-de-jerusalem/

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
  79. @Thorfinnsson

    I’m in agreement with AK’s addition as well.

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
  80. Anonymous[196] • Disclaimer says:
    @Glossy

    So what? It means Karlin is a Jew lover and a neocon cockroach. That’s what.

    But didn’t this neocon cockroach support Zhirinovsky in the last election? Zhirinovsky, although Jewish, has views somewhere between The Saker and Israel Shamir last time I checked.

  81. @reiner Tor

    I haven’t seen you comment lately. I’m glad that the Magyar Miracle is BACK.

    With respect to Karlin’s disapprobation, one would simply have the option of registering.

    Registered members could send private messages and perhaps have a members-only forum.

  82. @Thorfinnsson

    You will be delighted to know (I think) that my father moved to France and chose to learn French as part of his pseudo-retirement.

    I certainly commend him for that. This is not an easy language to learn, especially for germanic languages native speakers.

    I despise foreign languages and thus will never learn French

    By the way basque is several orders of magnitude harder to learn, as there is absolutely not Indo-European handle to cling to. It had been lost in my family for at least 3 generations and was revived by my parents who put us in an ikastola for elementary school. By the way I think someone with your culture and analytical intelligence would have no problem at learning foreign languages and would probably even enjoy doing so, even if solely as an intellectual exercice. It is apparently very good as prophylaxis against Alzheimer’s and similar brain degenerative conditions.

    I have learned how to make all of the complex French sauces for instance.

    Now, that is a feat. I am completely incapable of that. This is one of the reasons why I married a Frantziako :)

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
  83. @Thorfinnsson

    I had the same idea in this thread a few months ago (comment 2)…surely a case of “great minds think alike”:

    https://www.unz.com/imercer/jews-must-never-forget-trump-for-remembering-our-unforgettable-jerusalem/

    Yes, the Palestinian Christians are pretty much the only ones one can unreservedly feel sorry for in this whole mess.

    • Replies: @songbird
  84. @French Basque

    I wonder about de Gaulle.

    I do not question his conduct during the war, which I consider exemplary (you perhaps disagree?).

    But abandoning Algeria? Or more particularly, abandoning the the Pied-Noirs. Strategically I understand the decision to abandon Algeria, but sure the French government could’ve done more for the Pied-Noirs.

    • Replies: @French Basque
  85. Anonymous[196] • Disclaimer says:
    @Thorfinnsson

    Do not forget that there are Palestinian Christians, who are effectively the same people as Jesus Christ.

    We should liberate them from the Jewish yoke and restore Outremer.

    Israelis, who are largely genetically European, need to go back to European ghettos. They are not continuous with the Jews of the Old Testament and the only real commonality is their denial of Christ.

  86. I had also seen German_reader’s clear indication of his situation in an earlier comment, and given the fact that I had not yet started to comment here at the time, I did not say anything then. But I also felt sorry to read that, especially because I am always interested in his comments.

    Whatever his situation might be I would like to extend my sympathy to him.

  87. Anonymous[196] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    In my articles on the Wagner affair (just search site:unz.com/akarlin wagner) I rejected both initial Kremlin propaganda that there were no deaths and Western/(+hysterical Russian nationalist) propaganda there were hundreds of deaths.

    In fact, my estimates (a few dozen deaths) were in the same ballpark as the later serious investigations.

    And what makes any retaliation for these dozen or so Russian deaths problematic is that I read that the U.S. military ran the location of the mercs through the Russian military liaison and the Russian military effectively signed off on it by saying Russia had no military assets where the group was located. To retaliate or raise a stink about it after the fact would make the Russian military look incompetent.

  88. @Anonymous

    With the only possible exception of Arab Js (Mizrahim). But they are weak in general and have relatively low IQs, so I think they may be able to find a modus vivandi with the other Arabs and stick around while the others are sent back where they belong.

    Although Madagascar was really a great idea, I think that France could contribute to the ME peace process by offering the Js a piece of land to relocate:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adélie_Land

    It is 20 times bigger than current-day Israhell and has a great coastline too.

  89. @French Basque

    Interesting that your parents revived the Basque language for your family. Do you have some kind of accent in Basque as a result?

    By the way I think someone with your culture and analytical intelligence would have no problem at learning foreign languages and would probably even enjoy doing so, even if solely as an intellectual exercice. It is apparently very good as prophylaxis against Alzheimer’s and similar brain degenerative conditions.

    You are not wrong, but I have to be me. I almost got fluent in Spanish and German, but realized I hate foreign languages. I am a dissident and a troll, and in my social class there is prestige in speaking foreign languages. As a result I firmly decided against speaking them, other than my ancestral Swedish.

    While there are many reasons to oppose immigration, the language issue is a significant one for me. It’s extremely irritating to be forced to talk to dubious foreigners who barely speak English.

    I might change my mind on Spanish (business purposes) and German (military history enthusiasm) in the future.

    Regarding the brain issue I am not concerned as I am in my 30s, though my maternal grandmother did get Alzheimer’s.

    Now, that is a feat. I am completely incapable of that. This is one of the reasons why I married a Frantziako :)

    What is a Frantziako?

    If you ever find yourself in the American Midwest I will cook dinner for you and your wife with a proper French sauce.

  90. @Anonymous

    They are half-European, and this is only the Ashkenazim.

    And no, Europe does not need them back.

  91. @Anonymous

    Israel doesn’t just have Ashkenazim. Israel also has a lot of Mizrahi Jews, should they also go to Europe – a place they have never lived?

    Besides this plan will cause a lot of problems down the line.

  92. @Thorfinnsson

    In the interest of full disclosure: my wife is of Pied-Noir descent. Her mother moved to France as a child in a hurry in July 1962, and her own parents (my wife’s grandparents) lost everything that had been patiently and laboriously built by 4 generations of hard-working people originating from Alsace and Sicily for the most part. My in-laws hate de Gaulle with a passion and I have been influenced by their thinking, especially after having heard all the horror stories of what happened during that infamous summer of 1962. Although I am trying to remain even-minded in this regard, it is hard to not objectively see that de Gaulle betrayed the Pied-Noirs, to whom he had made all sorts of promises before his 1958 come-back. Not to mention his complete abandonment of the locals who had been fighting on the side of France (the so-called Harkis), who were butchered in generally atrocious conditions, together with their families, by the FLN victors.

    What should have been done would have been to retain a part of Algérie — which is entirely a French creation anyway, including its name — for the Pied-Noirs. There was no way the FLN could have opposed it, having been entirely defeated militarily speaking. But de Gaulle, deluded as he was with his dreams of grandeur, thought that this free gift to the Arabs would make France well positioned to become the head of the non-aligned third way between the USA and the USSR. That turned out to be a complete mistake of course, as this did not buy us anything, as half a century after this massive concession, the official ideology of independent Algeria is still to blame the former French rule for all the current failures (and there are many).

    Regarding 1940, he became a puppet of the English and I don’t see this as being especially honorable. Giraud was a much more decent man, not to mention Darlan of course, but he was assassinated by the Gaullists. But in fact the worst part of the Gaullian legacy, in my view, is the so-called “Libération” of 1944 and the following “Épuration” that followed under his rule. This is the absolute, un-redeemable stain on this man’s legacy.

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    , @AP
  93. @Thorfinnsson

    I read in a previous thread that German_reader is physically ill and made poor life choices and is thus poor

    It’s not very interesting, just somewhat severe back issues which I probably should have had operated when I was younger. There’s certainly worse things, but it has definitely had an extremely negative impact on my life.
    Apart from that…well, let’s just say I did humanities at university…which was probably a very bad idea. The German university system can be pretty cruel. Also bureaucratic…a few years ago I had the chance to get a much better job, but it was denied to me based on some absurd bureaucratic rule (introduced by the Schröder government early in the millennium…amusingly enough, it’s supposed to HELP people like me)…which tells you what kind of shit country Germany is, given how other rules (like those against illegal immigration) somehow don’t get enforced. Anyway, the result is that for the past few years I’ve been stuck in low-paid work. I’m trying to rectify the situation, but given my numerous other issues it isn’t easy.
    I hope that’s enough to satisfy your curiosity…my personal life story is rather trivial…and not exactly relevant to the topic of this thread :-)

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
  94. @Talha

    Well sure, if the world were just, Jews would have gotten the Rhineland instead of Palestine for their state. But the world isn’t just, and tbh I don’t think Arabs and Muslims are completely innocent in this whole affair either since they did eventually expel their Jewish minorities. Now you may argue this wouldn’t have happened without Zionism and colonialism, and probably you’d be right…but frankly, I don’t regard that as relevant today. And given that your own idea of the perfect political order seems to be some kind of Islamic state where minorities don’t have equal political rights, you can save your moral indignation, because it’s exactly such views which will ensure that there’ll never be peace in the Mideast.

  95. @French Basque

    As you know, I do not speak French. So my competence on this is limited.

    That said I get the impression that the Anglo-Americans were generally frustrated with de Gaulle,

    I am also much younger than you are, so I did not live the events you describe.

    • Replies: @French Basque
  96. @German_reader

    Sorry to hear that, and thank you for answering.

    Your life story is of course not relevant to this thread, but as I’ve noted before we’re developing a brotherhood in this blog. Thus I am interested and care about you.

    • Agree: for-the-record
  97. Anonymous[108] • Disclaimer says:
    @Lemurmaniac

    There’s an old Social Matter article predicting the Russian aim would be to eternally play off the Jew, the Persian, and the Turk.

    Nothing of that seems to be currently working. Russia seems to be VERY cornered by Israel and its US goon, trying to keep eye contact while sliding towards the door marked “Emergency Exit: China” while Neo-Caliphate Turkey don’t care about anything and is ready to play hard for territory and Islamic supremacism but may buy a few weapons in the near future as white-knuckled Persians try to hold on for dear life.

  98. @Thorfinnsson

    How do you suggest Russia retaliate against Israel?

    Not inviting Netanyahoo would be a start. If you attack our friends and allies, you should not be treated as a guest of honor at our “sacred” annual ritual.

    Step two: ramp up anti-Israel propaganda on state TV. The Jews are highly sensitive to this stuff. For now domestic propaganda mostly ignores Israel, when they do report on Israel, they cover it positively.

    Ending direct wealth transfers to Israel. Under Putin’s initiative, Russia pays pensions to Soviet Jews, who emigrated to Israel – a bizarre arrangement for all sorts of reasons.

    Russia’s economic relationship with Israel in general is very one-sided and mostly serves as a conduit for Jews to extract wealth from Russia. The government should make it harder for the Israeli citizens to do business in Russia, ideally pressuring them to sell their businesses and get out. This is not a retaliation measure per se, just sound economic nationalism, because having Jewish businesses in Russia is bad for Russians.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    , @Anatoly Karlin
  99. @Thorfinnsson

    I am also much younger than you are, so I did not live the events you describe.

    My wife’s mother was born in 1948 so in fact, I was a bit incorrect in stating that she was a “child” during the summer of 1962. She was a teenager and remembers vividly what happened to them. They had friends who disappeared overnight, never to be found again.

    As you know, I do not speak French. So my competence on this is limited.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oran_massacre_of_1962

    If you are interested in these events, this wikipedia page is actually rather balanced, I find. It also explains why Colonel Bastien-Thiry tried to assassinate de Gaulle one year later (with a justification founded in St Thomas Aquinas and the notion of just tyrannicide).

    That said I get the impression that the Anglo-Americans were generally frustrated with de Gaulle,

    Especially the Americans I would say. They had favored Giraud instead (who unlike de Gaulle was a real general — and a five-star one) but the cunning de Gaulle managed to out-manoeuver them, with the complicity of Churchill.

    Interesting that your parents revived the Basque language for your family. Do you have some kind of accent in Basque as a result?

    Quite the contrary in fact, I speak Basque with a very heavy French accent. My children don’t have that accent however and are truly bi-lingual (as opposed to me, I cannot honestly claim that).

    What is a Frantziako?

    The Basque word to designate a non-Basque French person :) It is not derogatory by the way.

    If you ever find yourself in the American Midwest I will cook dinner for you and your wife with a proper French sauce.

    Thank you! I regularly travel to the USA for my work, but unfortunately this is almost always in the leftist Silicon Valley. I do not know much the Midwest except for Yellowstone National Park where I travelled in the mid-1990s just after my military service when I was in need of seeing wide open spaces and not seeing many people. I was not disappointed and enjoyed it a lot. By the way I am not anti-American at all, there are many aspects of traditional American civilization that I appreciate, such as the “courage, determination, and individualism” triptych. It is just too bad that your country, as mine, was taken over by the Js.

    • Replies: @for-the-record
  100. El Dato says:
    @Talha

    carve out a similar region from Saxony or Bavaria where this persecuted minority can go (since we had relatively good relations before you dumped a bunch of yours on us).

    I think it’s already occupied by Turks…

    • Replies: @Talha
  101. Mr. Hack says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    Who is fighting for Russians? The Donbass. Those people really were betrayed by Putin. There is nobody to betray in Syria.

    Without initial Russian inspiration (read: Putin’s knowledge and approval of) there would not have been a Donbas war. Outsiders (Russians, Chechens etc;) were initially flooded into the region to start this maniacal war. Having unnecessarily riled up the area against the Kyivan center, going on four years now, Putin has decided to just let the place rot in the aftermath of heavy fighting, keeping the embers of war smoldering with a much smaller life support than initially given. You cannot dispute that if the support for Russia had been nearly as high in Donbas as it was in the Crimea, there would be no war still going on today, and the Donbas would at least be some sort of ‘autonomous’ Russian protectorate. It was a poorly designed operation doomed for failure from the very start. Looks like this first test case of the Triune theory (in an area of mixed Russian/Ukrainian citizenry) has failed miserably!

    • Replies: @Mikhail
  102. @German_reader

    And given that your own idea of the perfect political order seems to be some kind of Islamic state where minorities don’t have equal political rights, you can save your moral indignation

    Seconded.

    I can’t tolerate the Moslem’s double standard any more, even when carefully concealed under Talha’s suave taqîya.

    I read your earlier message about your current situation and I assure you of my sympathy, and hope that your back condition will improve. I am sure you already know it, but regular, non-strenuous brisk walking typically brings better long-term outcomes than spine surgery. I have in my entourage the example of a person whose lumbar disk surgery did not go well at all, had to be operated twice more, and became almost entirely crippled. Albeit in her 60s already that person made quite a come-back with a combination of stretching, walking, and eating correctly.

    • Replies: @Talha
    , @German_reader
    , @AP
  103. Talha says:
    @German_reader

    We didn’t give Jews the keys to the castle but we had thriving communities where there was an understanding of hierarchy and responsibility. You guys are the ones that have this bi-polar approach; let’s let Jews into every nook and cranny of society and government…and then…oh crap, they’re taking over – let’s massacre and expel them!!!

    We aren’t perfect by any means and we are dealing with the situation as imperfect as it is, but Europeans preaching to us about the nonsense they created (and continue to exacerbate – you can stop selling them nuclear submarines any time) is ludicrous and deserves derision.

    Make no bones about it – you guys had a Jew problem – and you dumped it on us. And that kicked off our Jew problem. You don’t want to regard the history as relevant because the fault lies flat at your feet, you just want to preach at others about it.

    And that’s fine; that might work for other Europeans who also want to feel so smug and superior, but any Muslim who knows their history will regard it as utter nonsense.

  104. Make no bones about it – you guys had a Jew problem – and you dumped it on us. And that kicked off our Jew problem. You don’t want to regard the history as relevant because the fault lies flat at your feet, you just want to preach at others about it.

    Quite the opposite, the Js are a problem to us from their own decision:

    Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children.

    [Mt 23:25]

    We also have a major problem with the semitic heresy known as islam.

    Also your Peace signature should be considered for what it is: taqîya. It is truly irritating. You should stop putting it.

    • Replies: @Talha
  105. Talha says:
    @French Basque

    I can’t tolerate the Moslem’s double standard any more, even when carefully concealed under Talha’s suave taqîya.

    You can point out where I’ve ever done taqiyyah chief. I’ve never, ever stated that non-Muslim minorities have or should have the same enfranchisement as Muslims in Muslim lands. The highest levels of government and power are reserved naturally for Muslims in nations that explicitly state they are built upon the foundations of Islam in their constitutions and charters. You guys can feel free to revert to pre-secular norms and discriminate likewise against Muslims by declaring yourselves Christian states or just drop the pretense of secularism and explicitly just state you are a “not-Muslim” nation.

    Then you can stop the annoying virtue signaling because it’s getting old. Really old.

    Can’t have it both ways, which way you want to go?

  106. Talha says:
    @El Dato

    Cool, the Turks took in plenty of fleeing Jews during WW2, maybe they’ll give them a place if they eventually take over. :)

    Peace.

  107. AP says:
    @French Basque

    Very interesting; I agree with this. It always puzzled me why these people were betrayed.

    • Replies: @French Basque
  108. @French Basque

    Thanks for your good wishes, it is appreciated!

    Regarding Talha, I actually value his comments, and find him quite honest in expressing his world view (which I find rather disturbing for many reasons) so I wouldn’t accuse him of taqiyya. I’m a bit sorry my comment seems to have triggered him. It’s certainly true that the Palestinians in the 1940s suffered grievously as a result of developments for which they weren’t responsible. I still believe though that they aren’t without a certain responsibility for their current situation. Their adoption of nihilistic terrorist tactics and explicitly Islamist ideology make it hard to feel unqualified sympathy for them imo.
    Btw, interesting you mentioned you the Oran massacre. I learned about that incident a few years ago in a tv documentary about the Algerian war and was irritated that no one seems to know what exactly happened there and how many Europeans were killed (some estimates go in the hundreds or even thousands after all). It surprised me that there never seems to have been a conclusive investigation about this, but I guess that wasn’t opportune in France after 1962.

    • Replies: @Talha
    , @French Basque
  109. AP says:
    @French Basque

    I am sure you already know it, but regular, non-strenuous brisk walking typically brings better long-term outcomes than spine surgery.

    Correct. I too have some back pain; it went away after a week in Moscow where I was walking everywhere (20 km one day).

  110. Talha says:
    @French Basque

    Awww – does it annoy you that I choose to sign off with “peace” with the people I am engaging with in a civil discussion? Cool, I won’t use it with you.

  111. You guys can feel free to revert to pre-secular norms and discriminate likewise against Muslims by declaring yourselves Christian states or just drop the pretense of secularism and explicitly just state you are a “not-Muslim” nation.

    I for one am not a proponent of secularism. And yes I routinely say that I support a Moslem-free state. Without Jews either.

    Everything will be much better that way, for all parties involved. We can continue working on our plans to colonize Mars while you guys can return to being camel herders once all your oil is gone. For one thing de Gaulle was right, when he stated to Peyrefitte as a justification for dumping Algeria, that the islamic sphere had not produced anything of value in the last 1000 years.

  112. @Anatoly Karlin

    Can I just randomly point out that Iran has not even recognized Crimea as part of Russia.

    Their position has been the same as that of China — no formal recognition, but one of a relatively small number of countries (26) to vote against UN resolutions in 2016 and 2017 that called Russia an “occupying power”.

    Only 10 countries have formally recognised the annexation: Afghanistan, Bolivia, Cuba, Kyrgyzstan, Nicaragua, North Korea, Sudan, Syria, Venezuela, Zimbabwe.

  113. @Talha

    You don’t want to regard the history as relevant because the fault lies flat at your feet, you just want to preach at others about it.

    Well yes, but what’s your point? True, Europeans dumped their “Jewish problem” on Palestine, and without the genocide of Jews by Germans it probably wouldn’t have happened like that. On a normative level, it probably shouldn’t have happened like that, it certainly wasn’t just. But it did happen and Israel exists now. And if you think that Israel should be dissolved and its Jews leave for Europe or the US, that looks rather unlikely.

    • Replies: @Talha
  114. Talha says:
    @German_reader

    Their adoption of nihilistic terrorist tactics and explicitly Islamist ideology make it hard to feel unqualified sympathy for them imo.

    I completely agree here, and have always condemned actions that are not sanctioned by sacred law. As long as Palestinians (and other Muslims) continue to violate the precepts of their religion, any victory will be elusive and we will continue to be humiliated at the hands of others until we get the message and reform.

    That is not what upsets me; it’s this preachy attitude regarding the issue of Israel/Palestine that I see coming from Europeans that forget that we are essentially dealing with the fallout of their problem.

    I’m glad you are well-read enough to recognize where the problem originated from and it didn’t just magically drop out of the sky.

    • Replies: @German_reader
  115. Major premise  [Quran 2-191]:

    And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter… and fight them until fitnah is no more, and religion is for Allah

    Minor premise [Talha #166 regarding his alleged rejection of violence]:

    I completely agree here, and have always condemned actions that are not sanctioned by sacred law.

    Ergo:
    Talha is a practitioner of taqîya.

    Plus we know you guys. We’ve lived with you for generations.

    • Replies: @German_reader
    , @Talha
    , @Anon
  116. @Talha

    it’s this preachy attitude regarding the issue of Israel/Palestine that I see coming from Europeans that forget that we are essentially dealing with the fallout of their problem

    I’m not preaching, I merely stated my dislike for both parties in the Israel/Palestine conflict, and while there are of course plenty of decent individuals on both sides, by and large I stand by my opinion. In my view both sides have legitimate interests and grievances, but both sides have plenty of absolutely repellent nutters in their ranks for whom I feel zero sympathy. Obviously I would wish for a peaceful solution to the conflict, but I’m definitely not going to voice unconditional support for any side there. Simply not my fight.
    And I don’t think anyone who knows about the issues would deny that the conflict is a result of European colonialism (specifically British colonialism in this case) and European antisemitism (especially the German Nazi genocide of the Jews)…that’s a point even some left-wing Israelis make btw. But that’s mostly a historical issue now.

  117. @German_reader

    since they did eventually expel their Jewish minorities.

    I don’t think they were actually expelled from any country (although I may be wrong on this), although their lives were in many cases made very difficult.

    • Replies: @German_reader
    , @Talha
  118. @for-the-record

    I admit to not knowing the details, but at least in Iraq there were anti-Jewish riots iirc (starting in 1941 when there was an abortive pro-Axis coup).
    Nasser’s Egypt probably also wasn’t that pleasant, didn’t they also remove Greeks and other minorities from Alexandria?
    Obviously nothing comparable to what the Nazis and other European fascists did. But it does somewhat complicate the Palestine issue.

  119. songbird says:
    @Talha

    That is rich.

    But here’s the thing: Zionism existed before WW2, and Jews did not have any less of a persecution complex, or less of a desire to settle Israel. They were settling it when it was part of the Ottoman empire. They had the Turks wrapped around their little finger, even when they were massacring the Armenians and sharpening their knives in front of the Greeks.

    There’s also a lot of hypocrisy fundamental in your indignation. Those “occupied Muslim lands” were really Christian lands occupied by Muslims. Similarly, Europe is occupied by more Muslims than there are Jews in Israel. We also took in many of your Jews too who were fleeing the threat of death. Islam has a long history of persecuting other religions. It began with Muhammad who himself put Jews to the sword. Jews who were, of course, living in Arabia before Islam came into being, and I am pretty sure there are none there now. Maybe, Arabia should be settled with Jews to make up for that violent past.

    • Replies: @Talha
    , @Mikhail
  120. @French Basque

    So what’s your view of Mers-el-Kébir? My children did all their schooling in France, I don’t think they ever learned anything about it.

    • Replies: @French Basque
  121. songbird says:
    @German_reader

    Yes, the Palestinian Christians are pretty much the only ones one can unreservedly feel sorry for in this whole mess.

    Not to mention, the Lebanese Christians, who basically had their country permanently destabilized by the refugees.

    • Agree: German_reader
    • Replies: @Mikhail
  122. Talha says:
    @for-the-record

    This depends; mostly it was pressure but there were instances of expulsion as well.

    As I’ve stated; our idiot Arab nationalists played right into the hands of their idiot Jewish nationalists by treating centuries-old Jewish communities as fifth columnists in toto.

    Peace.

  123. @Talha

    The Zionist movement predates the rise of National Socialism and the Holocaust, the Jews were pretty determined in reconquering Palestine, whether they were or were not being oppressed in Europe.

    The Palestine-only faction won out and they rejected all other proposals for a Jewish state somewhere else. They wanted to recreate Israel long before Hitler burst on the scene.

    It would have taken longer and the formation of Israel would have occurred in a different manner.

    However, you would have had a Jew problem in the end regardless of whether Hitler had decided to exterminate European Jewry or not, since the Jews do not recognise or acknowledge limits to their aims and ambitions.

    Fervent Zionist dreams of recreating Israel began decades before. It is only by your disingenuous framing of the Shoah as the event that led to the creation of Israel that your resentment of Europeans makes sense.

    Perhaps if you spent more time fixing your own problems and actually forming an actual anti-Israeli front rather than having Saudi ministers paling around with Israelis you might actually accomplish something.

    I think it is darkly amusing that the Shia forces of Iran and Hezbollah are serious about taking out Israel yet some Sunni countries would rather focus on teaming up with Israel and engage in sectarian war with the aforementioned forces. Other countries, like Turkey, are just full of empty air and more interested in carrying out their own little projects.

    I don’t give one whit whether you wipe Israel from the map, I don’t care about your semitic feud, and I would rather avoid sticking our hands into that hornets’ nest.

    Nevertheless your kind has a history of complaining about the past to avoid taking concrete actions in the present. If you are serious about fixing your problem then why don’t take the kind of initiative the Jihadists took in Yugoslavia or Afghanistan?

    It would certainly be much more productive that talking about how much it is our fault that the Jews broke your fragile national blossoms.

    • Replies: @French Basque
    , @Talha
  124. @Hyperborean

    Nevertheless your kind has a history of complaining about the past to avoid taking concrete actions in the present.

    I could not have said it better. The official narrative of the independent (and failed) state of Algeria is a prime illustration thereof.

    Also your comment regarding the Shias reflects my thinking. Are you sure you are not me ? ;)

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
  125. @French Basque

    Talha #166 regarding his alleged rejection of violence

    I don’t think Talha has ever claimed to reject violence, he just wants it regulated (and thereby limited) by Islamic law. He doesn’t pretend to be a turn-the-other-cheek pacifist.
    Personally I find his comments quite interesting…and frequently disturbing since they indicate the yawning gulf between the world view of even a probably relatively moderate, if conservative, pious Muslim and the world view of most Westerners. It’s the kind of thing liberals should be forced to read imo, maybe it would help them understand that more Islam in western societies is likely to lead to potentially quite severe conflict, even if one recognizes that on a personal level many Muslims aren’t especially vicious people (Talha certainly doesn’t strike me as especially violence-prone from his internet persona).

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
  126. @French Basque

    ‘Are you sure you are not me?’

    Ah no, unfortunately. Despite my like for the country and culture, I am not French, though I would like to improve my subpar French speaking abilities.

  127. Talha says:
    @songbird

    All lands are occupied by someone in the past. Christians are likewise guilty of this:

    https://christianhistoryinstitute.org/magazine/article/interview-converting-by-the-sword

    Muslims were simply way better at it. And those populations converted over time to Islam themselves. And some of those Christians were quite happy we kicked out the Byzantines:
    “The persecution of the Syrian Church by the Byzantine Empire did not end until the appearance of Islam. Only through the campaigns of Islam in the first half of the 7th century was it possible to free the East from the Byzantines and the Persians. This happened with the help of the members of the Syrian Church; the original inhabitants of Syria of whom one part was of Aramaic origin who inhabited these areas for generations and another part was of Arabic origin. When the Arab Muslims marched into Syria they were welcomed by the Syrians who saw the new rulers as saviors who freed them from the yoke of the Byzantines because the Byzantines tried by force to assimilate them into the Byzantine Church.“

    http://syrianorthodoxchurch.org/2010/03/a-short-overview-of-the-common-history/

    You guys only pay attention to the Greek/Melkite side of the story.

    That’s what post-WW2 protocols are supposed to stop – conquest by force. Now if you want the lands back, you have the addresses – drop out of international treaties and come take them.

    The Prophet (pbuh) dealt with Jews in the manner that they deserved; if they were friendly, they were treated as friendly and if they were hostile and sided with the enemy they were exiled or had their men killed. Par for the course. So we have rules for how to deal with minorities based on how they behave. And – as Imam Mawardi (ra) and others have made clear, the violation of the dhimmi covenant by one party does not violate for others.

    I do not, nor have I ever condoned the massacres of various innocent Christian minorities during the time you mention. There is no sanction for the killing of innocents in the sacred law and the Turks that did so will have to answer before God for their crimes.

    If you want to compare records with treatment of Jews, Mark Cohen already wrote an extensive study of it:

    https://press.princeton.edu/titles/8761.html

    European better treatment of Jews is a relatively recent thing…and then they went postal on them.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @for-the-record
    , @Bliss
  128. @for-the-record

    So what’s your view of Mers-el-Kébir

    I think that from the point of view of the British Admiralty it was probably the strategically sound decision to make. Of course there was a risk involved in that it could have backfired and pushed many Frenchmen in the German camp (and it did to some limited extent). However at that point the Brits had already their de Gaulle puppet firmly under control and their bet proved to be correct as it did not backfire on them.

    No, the ones I am blaming are not the British, absolutely not. They wanted to ensure that squadron of the Royale would not join forces with the Kriegsmarine. The one however that I blame chiefly for having accepted that is primarily de Gaulle, together with the Frenchmen who afterwards remained oblivious to be fact that none of the 2 sides was our friend in that war. This is were we can see that colonel de Gaulle was a total POS when compared to, say, General Franco.

    My children did all their schooling in France, I don’t think they ever learned anything about it.

    Good for you. They must be well-educated then :)
    All joking aside I am not surprised that they never heard anything about M-el-K, especially if they went to public schools. It does not fit well with the official Gaullist mythology.

    • Replies: @for-the-record
  129. Talha says:
    @Hyperborean

    I have never stated that Muslims are guiltless in the problem. In fact there would never have been a Zionist problem if not for the disunity in the Muslim world; believing in the promises of the Brits and French. I fully believe this is a metaphysical result of us turning away from the guidance of the religion. We will continue to be humiliated by the Zionists until we fix our own problems.

    I just don’t appreciate the preachy attitude from Europeans and Westerners, especially since they aren’t helping the situation by literally taking out all of the rivals to Israel on their behalf.

    But I honestly expect nothing from non-Muslims to solve our issues, our Ummah has to deal with it.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
  130. @German_reader

    Some of the old (old to me at least) Muslims I have encountered in Europe can be quite decent, though of course they shouldn’t be here in large numbers.

    I think the problem is with the young ones who will form the coming generation who are either aggressive guys coming from the Middle East or Africa recently or the children who grew up in Europe who tend to form this toxic mixture of either hypocritical gangster Islam or rabid ultra-pozzed nominal Muslim SJWdom. I also sometimes see hardcore Salafists. They tend to be a minority but their visual appearance makes them stick out quite a bit.

  131. @Talha

    That is a fair point. I too dislike this ‘preachy attitude’ as you call it.

    I don’t see why we have to care so much about every single squabble in foreign lands. If it concerns us then it concerns us, if it doesn’t then there is no point getting so worked up about it.

    People in other countries generally don’t spend a lot of time taking sides about, say, African tribal conflicts even though these can be quite bloody – for good reason.

    However I think there is a strange lack among Sunnis to take on Israel, even though they hate her. Why aren’t Sunnis flocking to create Sunni versions of Hezbollah?

    Thousands of foreign Muslims were willing to take on the full might of the USSR in Afghanistan and become martyrs. Yet it seems mainly Shia who are confronting Israel. Even ISIS seemed to avoid Israel. Why is this?

    • Replies: @Talha
  132. @Talha

    If you want to compare records with treatment of Jews, Mark Cohen already wrote an extensive study of it.

    Thanks, I look forward to reading this.

  133. Talha says:
    @Hyperborean

    Why aren’t Sunnis flocking to create Sunni versions of Hezbollah?

    We have one, it’s called Hamas – it’s simply not as good.

    You have to realize what Hezbollah is; it is a South Lebanese Shiah militia with a defensive posture. They would get shredded by the IDF (like most other Muslim militias) if they went on the offensive. But if Israel comes into their territory, they will make the IDF pay dearly for every inch of land that they take.

    If Israel was to spill out of its borders and, say, march into the Sinai, then you would see thousands of Sunni volunteers going to help out.

    As I stated before; Muslims are not in a position, nor in a mood to go on any offensives (any more than the British, Spanish and French want to restore their former empires) – the international non-aggression protocols have been accepted by our major scholars and institutions as a positive framework. I actually don’t mind Israel so much within its current borders; my only beef is Gaza, WB and Jerusalem (which is what most Muslims have a problem with).

    Daesh avoids Israel because it’s on their side. Remember, Israel has a long history of playing Muslim sides against each other; the occupation of Lebanon is a great study on this subject. Which again comes back to the issue of Muslim disunity.

    toxic mixture of either hypocritical gangster Islam or rabid ultra-pozzed nominal Muslim SJWdom

    Excellent assessment! I too reject these paradigms and find them alarming and I’m doing what I can within my community to help make sure this doesn’t spread.

    Peace.

  134. Dmitry says:
    @German_reader

    The S-300 package to Syria costs $900 million, according to newspaper reports.

    Either Syria buys it (with Iranian funding) – which was discussed a few years ago, or it is given for free (which was discussed last week).

    The complex will likely be destroyed by Israel after it is given. If Syria had paid for it – this is no problem for the Kremlin. But if it was given for free, then the destruction of expensive free equipment will require a response from Russia (probably some economic sanction).

    In other words, giving it for free, is an increase in defense obligations, as well as a lot of money.

    If Syria (with Iranian backing) would pay for it, they would have been sold to Syria years ago.

    • Agree: melanf
    • Replies: @German_reader
  135. @French Basque

    They must be well-educated then :)

    Both got mention très bien. On more than one occasion we (parents) were told by their schools that they were progressing well despite their “handicap” (us, being non-native French speakers).

    I think you are perhaps being a bit overly charitable with respect to Perfidious Albion — French losses after all were more than half of those at Pearl Harbor. In particular, the option of sailing the fleet to a “safe” destination (French West Indies) was never fully explored.

    • Replies: @DFH
    , @French Basque
  136. Dmitry says:
    @Felix Keverich

    Attacks on allies should not be tolerated. At the very least we must impose sanctions on Israel: this economic relationship benefits the Jews far more than it benefits Russians.

    I think economic relationship with Israel is mainly

    1. Russia is number one or two seller of oil to Israel (along with Azerbaijan).

    2. Israel receives hundreds of thousands of tourists from Russia each year.

    3. Russia imports some agricultural products.

    Oil is substitutable (unlike gas which needs pipelines).

    While the tourism is more possible instrument of foreign policy (like what happened with Turkey).

  137. Talha says:
    @French Basque

    Look, you seem new here…so welcome.

    A little intro on my part; I’m a traditional Muslim, Sunni Orthodox following the Hanafi school (mostly Maturidi in theological precepts) and a student of the Naqshbandi Sufi Order.

    I’ve been studying Shariah for over a decade under qualified scholars of the Hanafi school. Some of the people I have taken classes with have learned under the top scholars of the Muslim world.

    If you have to look up the term “Hanafi”, you are trying to punch way, way above your level.

    Quoting random verses and hadith may get you somewhere with the ignorant or frat boys, but we know our verses, we know our religion. It has been expounded upon by scholars for centuries; men who devoted their entire lives to figuring it out. Let me be clear, neither you nor I (nor anyone here) is qualified to derive any ruling or precept from a verse of the Qur’an. If you think you are, that’s your problem, not ours.

    If your contention is that Muslims are commanded to kill non-Muslims everywhere we come across them; then this is juvenile nonsense. None of our scholars have ever stated this, nor have any serious non-Muslim academic researchers of Islam. If you want to read a fairly good book about the subject of jihad, then I suggest this one by Prof. Bonner:

    https://press.princeton.edu/titles/8280.html

    I would even recommend this one by Prof. Cook:

    https://www.ucpress.edu/book.php?isbn=9780520287327

    Both are by non-Muslims but look at the concept from an academic perspective.

    Up your game – do some serious research (please don’t waste my time with quotes from Zionist fanboy websites like JihadWatch) and then come back with what the scholars of our normative tradition say and we can have an intelligent conversation about Islamic doctrine.

    Otherwise, stick to saying I’m a taqiyyah Muzzie and hope other people here take you seriously.

    • Replies: @French Basque
    , @Bliss
  138. Dmitry says:
    @Felix Keverich

    Under Putin’s initiative, Russia pays pensions to Soviet Jews, who emigrated to Israel – a bizarre arrangement for all sorts of reasons.

    The fact Putin started to do this, must be another confusing thing for people like Saker who say Putin is anti-Israel.

    This said, it seems a minimum social pension – of around $80 a month.

    They are still giving the pension to people who did not accumulate enough pension points to get the pension if they were in Russia, and based on how many years they were in Israel.

  139. DFH says:
    @for-the-record

    I think you are perhaps being a bit overly charitable with respect to Perfidious Albion — French losses after all were more than half of those at Pearl Harbor. In particular, the option of sailing the fleet to a “safe” destination (French West Indies) was never fully explored.

    Obviously the British should have magnanimously allowed the risk of their enemies gaining one of the world’s largest fleet to use in their planned invasion instead.

    • Replies: @Anon
  140. @Dmitry

    The complex will likely be destroyed by Israel after it is given

    If it’s that easy to destroy, what would be the point in Syria getting it?
    I can see though why Russia just doesn’t want to give it away…$900 million (wow) isn’t exactly cheap.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    , @LondonBob
  141. Talha says:
    @German_reader

    Well yes, but what’s your point?

    Well, you actually made my point with the rest of your statement. Again – it was much more about the preachy attitude.

    And if you think that Israel should be dissolved and its Jews leave for Europe or the US

    So we can deal with the problem in a century or two after you guys go postal on them again? No thanks!

    No, we’ll clean up the mess. A lot of it has to do with the reformation of Muslim attitudes back to normative religious doctrine and removal of the nonsense that Arab nationalism brought with it. I personally don’t see Israel lasting that far into the future in its current form – maybe another century, maybe a little more (highly depends on US dominance on the world stage also). Jews will have to decide (along with Muslims of the area) – do we want to keep on this path or go back to how it was where Jews could settle and have communities across the Muslim world? Do Jews want their little bunker or do they want freedom of movement? They’ll have to stop encouraging the US to destroy all the ME around them and the Muslims will have to also show that Jews will have protection in the places they want to settle. This may be an easier sell for Middle Eastern Jews, but harder for the European Jews whose insane pipe-dream this whole thing was. Will it be the same as what they have currently in Europe? No – Europe is not the ME, but it can be peaceful and even pleasant.

    I don’t mind (and actually think it a good thing) Israel proper being absorbed into a wider economic-political cooperative (kind of like the EU) across the Middle East where they have a level of semi-autonomy in certain areas. We’ve done the millet thing before for centuries so this is nothing new for us, this would only be modified to come up to modern standards.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @German_reader
    , @songbird
  142. @Talha

    Again – it was much more about the preachy attitude.

    I’m not sure though where you see that preachy attitude, imo the Europeans at least have tried to some extent to be even-handed, recognizing a certain responsibility for Israel’s situation, given the background of European antisemitism, but also trying to support the Palestinians and building lots of infrastructure for them (which Israel unfortunately then destroyed to a large extent). If anything, the Europeans are usually accused of being preachy towards Israel.
    The US has of course become grotesquely one-sided in recent years.

    • Agree: utu
    • Replies: @Talha
  143. @Talha

    Some of the people I have taken classes with have learned under the top scholars of the Muslim world.

    Yeah. I am really impressed by the “scholars” of the muslim world, being mesmerized by their manifold contributions to advancement of humanity in many areas ranging from medicine to space exploration, chip design or renewable energies. Not to mention their amazing track record in terms of Nobel Prizes, Kyoto Prizes, or Fields Medals.

    Let me be clear, neither you nor I (nor anyone here) is qualified to derive any ruling or precept from a verse of the Qur’an.

    In all honesty, I don’t really care much about learning anything more than I already know, regarding this collection of idiotic texts written by (and for) low-IQ camel herders. It is sufficient to me to observe the net result for my country of the massive intake of Moslems over the past 4 decades, specifically, turning every area where they settle en masse invariably into repulsive shitholes. In all fairness, there are a couple of metrics for which muslim immigration always brings unqualified increases: rape and food poisoning.

    I do indeed deeply dislike your religion and the sub-civilization it has engendered. However I do not wish you any harm at a personal level. I would just want that we all agree to live separately and that you stop coming to our countries as a result of the dismal failures of yours.

    • Replies: @Talha
  144. Talha says:
    @French Basque

    Not to mention their amazing track record in terms of Nobel Prizes, Kyoto Prizes, or Fields Medals.

    Why would our ulema be trying to earn Nobel Prizes?! They study the religion. It’s like asking why hockey players don’t write dissertations in physics.

    I do indeed deeply dislike your religion and the sub-civilization it has engendered.

    Totally fine; we don’t care.

    I would just want that we all agree to live separately and that you stop coming to our countries as a result of the dismal failures of yours.

    I’m fine with this; can we at least get the West to meet us half way and stop destroying relatively stable countries – you don’t get tons of immigrants from Malaysia do you? That would help immensely. Or you can listen to this guy:

    • Replies: @French Basque
  145. Syria had not disguised it or camouflaged it.

    Hmm, sounds like the Syrians might not be very competent (who would have thought?).
    Thanks, that’s informative.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  146. Dmitry says:
    @German_reader

    Within the air defense network of a developed and well organized country, it would not be easy to destroy. If it is with the Germans, it would not be easy to destroy.

    The question I would have – is when you give it to a country which does not have technological, or necessarily tactical and organizational, equality? There might be a weak link in the chain. And equipment is only as strong as the weak link in the chain.

    We had this conversation two weeks ago with Reinor Tor. And already since that last discussion about this subject, it happened that the new Pantsir-S1 was destroyed for a Twitter video that was posted on the IDF Twitter account (a $15 million Twitter video).

    RT has commissioned articles to explain to the world that a vulnerable complex can be destroyed. According to the last sentence, Syria had not disguised it or camouflaged it.

    https://www.rt.com/news/426520-syria-israel-pantsir-russia/

    Whatever actually happened (whether Israel uses electronic warfare to disable it, or that the Syrian just leave it undefended and turned off, or it runs out of ammunition) – since the last discussion, my point of view seems now more likely than before.

  147. Talha says:
    @German_reader

    I wasn’t talking about general European attitudes, I was talking about the European attitude you reflected in your specific post.

    I agree that, in general, it is the cowboys in the US that are backing Israel to the hilt and that there would be a much better situation on the ground if it was just the Europeans involved.

    Peace.

  148. Dmitry says:
    @German_reader

    And in which case, an issue is whether they pay for the equipment or not.

    If they pay, then it’s still no problem for the Kremlin. Iran and Syria should buy as much equipment as they can from the rational view, and it is still positive even if the equipment is damaged in the battlefield.

    But if it is a free gift of the expensive equipment? Budgets of the actual army are going down this year, in which situation I don’t really see how giving for free equipment that is destroyed, remains anymore rational.

    From the international marketing perspective, it also looks incompetent (because you may be giving it to not the most competent operators).

    I’m just looking at the 3 week time-space.

    When three-weeks ago, the article was:

    https://sputniknews.com/military/201804171063644024-pantsir-top-facts/

    And three-weeks later, it was:

    https://www.rt.com/news/426520-syria-israel-pantsir-russia/

  149. songbird says:
    @Talha

    I don’t mind (and actually think it a good thing) Israel proper being absorbed into a wider economic-political cooperative (kind of like the EU) across the Middle East where they have a level of semi-autonomy in certain areas.

    Like everyone, I suppose, I don’t know how to solve the ME issue. Obviously, peace would involve some sort of cooperation or normalized trade. Of course, I am not an Israeli, but I think a reasonable minimum would be Jews keeping their own currency, or else some inflation-proof techno-currency taken completely out of the hands of government. Also, all charity being private – not governmental. Plus freedom of association and no affirmative action.

    A shared currency or redistribution on the EU model is absolutely an unworkable model, IMO. It is not working in the US or in the EU, and it is reasonable to think that it may one day lead to war in either location.

    Maybe what is needed in the ME is the ancient practice of exchanging hostages.

    • Replies: @Talha
  150. Mikhail says: • Website
    @Mr. Hack

    Without initial Russian inspiration (read: Putin’s knowledge and approval of) there would not have been a Donbas war. Outsiders (Russians, Chechens etc;) were initially flooded into the region to start this maniacal war. Having unnecessarily riled up the area against the Kyivan center, going on four years now, Putin has decided to just let the place rot in the aftermath of heavy fighting, keeping the embers of war smoldering with a much smaller life support than initially given. You cannot dispute that if the support for Russia had been nearly as high in Donbas as it was in the Crimea, there would be no war still going on today, and the Donbas would at least be some sort of ‘autonomous’ Russian protectorate. It was a poorly designed operation doomed for failure from the very start. Looks like this first test case of the Triune theory (in an area of mixed Russian/Ukrainian citizenry) has failed miserably!

    The situation in Donbass was the result of the way the coup in Kiev went off. Specifically:

    - overthrowing a democratically elected prez, who just signed an internationally brokered power sharing arrangement for the next 12 months or so
    - followed by the disproportionate number of nationalist anti-Russian Svoboda members to ministerial positions
    - anti-Russian actions like the blowing up of Kutuzov monument (a Svoboda desire) and a proposed move to further limit Russian language use.

    Like it or not, pro-Russian sentiment exists within the territory that comprised the Ukrainian SSR.

    There’s absolutely no evidence whatsoever to contradict that the majority of the Donbass rebels are indigenous to the territory of the former Ukrainian SSR. This includes the overall makeup of the Donbass leadership. BTW, it’s not like the Kiev regime hasn’t included some foreign support.

    During the American Revolution, the colonists opposed to Britain had the considerable help of the French as well as some other foreigners. In turn, the Brits employed Hessians and even sought the use of Cossacks. BTW, there were many colonists opposed to independence from Britain who fought on the British side.

    Concerning Donbass, whatever polling has been done, indicates a murkiness along the lines of not being gung ho on joining Russia, while not actively opposing such if it happened, along with opposing the Kiev regime. This very scenario has led some to second guess the Kremlin for not being as assertive as it arguably could’ve and should’ve been.

    People the world over prefer a winning attitude. If such is lacking, the enthusiasm is understandably lower.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    , @Mr. Hack
  151. Anon[198] • Disclaimer says:
    @French Basque

    The Prophet’s sayings have to be taken in context, and not even necessarily their original context (which is open to scholarly debate*), but the context in which they are taken by traditional Muslims. Otherwise you get a situation analogous to that described by Cardinal Newman:

    “I hold in my hand,” continued the speaker, “a book which I have obtained under very remarkable circumstances. It is not known to the British people, it is circulated only among the lawyers, merchants, and aristocracy, and its restrictive use is secured only by the most solemn oaths, the most fearful penalties, and the utmost vigilance of the police. … It is called ‘Blackstone’s Commentaries on the Laws of England,’ …

    “Now, I should say, gentlemen, that this book, while it is confined to certain classes, is of those classes, on the other hand, of judges, and lawyers, and privy councillors, and justices of the peace, and police magistrates, and clergy, and country gentlemen, the guide, and I may say, the gospel. I open the book, gentlemen, and what are the first words which meet my eyes? ‘The King can do no wrong.’ I beg you to attend, gentlemen, to this most significant assertion; one was accustomed to think that no child of man had the gift of impeccability; one had imagined that, simply speaking, impeccability was a divine attribute; but this British Bible, as I may call it, distinctly ascribes an absolute sinlessness to the King of Great Britain and Ireland. Observe, I am using no words of my own, I am still but quoting what meets my eyes in this remarkable document. The words run thus: ‘It is an axiom of the law of the land that the King himself can do no wrong.’ Was I wrong, then, in speaking of the atheistical maxims of John Bullism? But this is far from all: the writer goes on actually to ascribe to the Sovereign (I tremble while I pronounce the words) absolute perfection; for he speaks thus: ‘The law ascribes to the King in his political capacity ABSOLUTE PERFECTION; the King can do no wrong!’—(groans). One had thought that no human power could thus be described; but the British legislature, judicature, and jurisprudence, have had the unspeakable effrontery to impute to their crowned and sceptred idol, to their doll,”—here cries of “shame, shame,” from the same individual who had distinguished himself in an earlier part of the speech—”to this doll, this puppet whom they have dressed up with a lion and a unicorn, the attribute of ABSOLUTE PERFECTION!” Here the individual who had several times interrupted the speaker sprung up, in spite of the efforts of persons about him to keep him down, and cried out, as far as his words could be collected, “You cowardly liar, our dear good little Queen,” when he was immediately saluted with a cry of “Turn him out,” and soon made his exit from the meeting.

    I don’t think I disagree with you with respect to actual policy recommendations.

    *It is difficult for anyone other than an interested party to deny the enormous development of Islamic doctrine between the days of the Prophet and the days of the early Abbasid caliphate when a great deal of formalization seems to have been done.

  152. Mikhail says: • Website
    @songbird

    Before WW II, Zionism among Jews was nowhere near as popular as it became. Nazi actions greatly helped to popularize Zionism. Tacked onto that, was the highlighting of pre-WW II discriminatory actions against Jews.

    The Ottoman Turks treated the Jews well because at the time, they saw a talented group who didn’t have such threatening national aspirations when compared to some others.

    When Israel was created, the bias against Jews in Arab countries increased. There was also some Arab bias against Jews before Israel’s creation. This explains why Israeli Jews with roots to Arab countries, include some of the more hard line of elements.

    • Replies: @songbird
  153. Mikhail says: • Website
    @songbird

    Not to mention, the Lebanese Christians, who basically had their country permanently destabilized by the refugees.

    Not so simple, as Lebanese Christians fought among themselves in scenarios that included groups of Christians and Muslims fighting other groups of Christians and Muslims.

  154. Talha says:
    @songbird

    I don’t know what details would work, people smarter than me can figure it out when the time comes. I don’t think an exact copy of the EU model would work since the ME is not Europe. Nor do I want Jews in any positions over Muslim financial currency other than in in an advisory role (at most). Our views are way too divergent on the topic. Maybe a gold-backed, oil-backed or gold+oil-backed currency – I don’t know.

    Either way, I’d like this chapter to end on some kind of negotiated settlement and not a bloodbath. They way the Israelis are pushing for sanctions and war on Iran is simply making that ideal more and more elusive.

    Peace.

  155. Bliss says:
    @Talha

    we had relatively good relations before you dumped a bunch of yours on us

    Lol at this wannabe pretending to get all agitated. Who is this “we” and this “us”? Pakistan is a long ways from Palestine. Why don’t you ever show the same concern for your own neighborhood and your own people?

    The Arabs there are far better off than the Christians, Ahmadis, Sufis, Shias are in Pakistan. Why aren’t you getting agitated about that?

  156. Bliss says:
    @Talha

    I’m a traditional Muslim…….and a student of the Naqshbandi Sufi Order.

    A traditional muslim believes in the finality of the Quran and the Last Prophet (Mohammad). Joining a Sufi order is proof that you don’t. None of the Sufi orders were founded by Mohammad so how the hell can you call yourself a “traditional muslim”? You may fool most of the people here but you aren’t fooling the salafis. They know you for the heretics you are and they know what they are commanded to do to you when they have the power:

    If anyone leaves the religion, kill him (Mohammad, the Last Messenger of Allah)

  157. Bliss says:
    @Talha

    There is no sanction for the killing of innocents in the sacred law

    Mohammad himself killed numerous innocents. And your “sacred law” is based largely on his behavior. Explain that away.

    Btw, it is only fair to point out that Moses killed more innocents (including children) than Mohammad. At least Mohammad is not known to have killed babies and little children. For example in the wholesale beheadings of the males of the Jewish tribe of Banu Qurayza in Medina only the (innocent) boys who had begun to sprout pubic hair were killed in the bloodbath.

    • Replies: @Talha
  158. @German_reader

    Sounds pretty delusional.

    “More than one third of Iran’s population is minority groups, many of whom already seek independence,” the paper explains. “U.S. support for these independence movements, both overt and covert, could force the regime to focus attention on them and limit its ability to conduct other malign activities.”

    The only element of hope that I see, however remote, is that the US is giving Europe a real opportunity, and incentive, to effectively declare its independence.

    • Replies: @German_reader
  159. songbird says:
    @Mikhail

    Zionism was a snowball rolling down a hill, IMO. It was inevitable way before WW2.

    Nationalism always starts on the margins. In the 1916 Easter Rising in Dublin, most onlookers were confused by what was happening. Two years later, Sinn Fein won 3/4 of all seats in Ireland. By 1921, there was an Anglo-Irish Treaty.

    The American Revolution was only supported by a third of the population – and that is from sources who were for independence.

    Zionism was in the mainstream consciousness before WW2. GK Chesterton wrote an essay titled something like “On the Jewish Problem” or “On the Jewish Question.” Brandeis was also involved in the discussion of Zionism, even though he was an American Jew and trying to maintain an impartial facade.

    Many of the Jewish settlers did have national ambitions under the Turks. There were espionage rings created with the intent of getting the Allies to invade.

    • Replies: @LondonBob
    , @Mikhail
  160. @for-the-record

    The only element of hope that I see, however remote, is that the US is giving Europe a real opportunity, and incentive, to effectively declare its independence

    European politicians are too incompetent and unimaginative for something like that. Besides, they have serious flaws of their own (not least their open borders project which is going to tear the union apart or ruin Europe).
    I’m just stunned though at the level of delusion in Trump’s administration if the report I linked to is correct. These people have learned nothing at all from Iraq. “Just remove the evil regime in Tehran and everything will be wonderful in the region”…just like Saddam’s removal was supposed to usher in an era of freedom and democracy in the Mideast. And Bolton is apparently now regarded as a respectable expert (does this maniac even know any Mideastern languages? Probably not). Grotesque.

    • Replies: @for-the-record
  161. Bliss says:
    @German_reader

    land-grabbing greed

    That’s funny coming from an european. The world champions of land grabbing are the Russians, the Brits, the Iberians. All gentile euros.

    Have you ever looked at a map of Israel? It is tiny. At it’s neck it is only about ten miles across. To call the Israelis greedy for land is obscenely unfair.

    • Replies: @German_reader
  162. Talha says:
    @Bliss

    Who is this “we” and this “us”?
    And who are you that I should care that you are triggered every time I post?

    Mohammad himself killed numerous innocents.

    You just explained why he didn’t kill any innocents. Military-age males weren’t innocent in a tribal war. On top of that, men of Bani Qurayza (a small minority for sure) who did not violate the covenant were let go. If you feel otherwise, your opinion is noted and dismissed.

    The Muslims of Pakistan could be doing better, they need to get the extremism under control for sure.

    Thanks for telling me one more time why you think Sufis cannot be Orthodox Muslims; I support your right to believe you have a point.

    • Replies: @Bliss
  163. @German_reader

    I’m just stunned though at the level of delusion in Trump’s administration if the report I linked to is correct.

    Of course it is.

    Shortly after Trump was elected he held a meeting with Rep. Tulsi Gabbard, known among other things for sponsoring a resolution that would have required the US to stop supporting terrorism (!):

    https://www.congress.gov/bill/115th-congress/house-bill/608

    There seemed a real possibility that she would cross party lines and become Trump’s UN Ambassador (or even possibly Secretary of State). Unbelievably, it seemed that there might be some hope.

    But when Trump then proceeded to choose Nikki Haley, and when John Bolton’s name was then mentioned as a serious contender for Secretary of State, I knew it was all over, it was just a matter of time.

    These people have learned nothing at all from Iraq. “Just remove the evil regime in Tehran and everything will be wonderful in the region”

    I think you are a little bit naive here. They never seriously believed that peace and love would prosper in Mesopotamia, they simply wanted to destroy an unfriendly, independent government (cf. Libya, Syria). Iraq wasn’t a mistake, it was a success for those like Bolton. Similarly, the goal in Iran is not a Persian Renaissance, but destruction of what is perceived as a threat to US (and friendly) interests.

    The fact that Bolton — who first came to my attention in 2002 when he famously warned about Cuba’s biological warfare program — can be (and make no doubt about it, is) considered a serious voice on such matters is absolute proof that things are totally f***ed (excuse my Greek).

    https://www.nytimes.com/2002/05/07/world/washington-accuses-cuba-of-germ-warfare-research.html

    • Replies: @Jayce
    , @utu
  164. @AP

    Thank you. And the sad part is that most of my compatriots have a good opinion of the traitor that de Gaulle was.

    On the other hand, one of the core constituencies of the Front National is the Pied-Noirs and their descendants, and historically one of the very first.

    Another thing of interest regarding de Gaulle for you guys (or more likely your ancestors) who suffered under the communist yoke: he always played a very murky game with the commies. For example, exactly 50 years ago, as the “events” of May 1968 in Paris were beginning to get seriously out of hand, by the middle of the month, he was visiting Ceausescu in Romania and being all chummy with him.

    • Replies: @AP
  165. @for-the-record

    The mention très bien is indeed impressive, especially for children with this “handicap”! I am not surprised at all that you were told such things.

    What is also very interesting here is that your children, despite this “handicap”, were both able to get such grades.

    On the other hand, the co-religionnaries of Talha, despite the fact that most of them are now second or third-generation “French” (on paper of course), and despite the many hundreds of millions of € that have been dumped in remediation courses for them, despite also all the free passes and special treatments they get from the multi-culti types infesting all echelons of the Éducation Nationale, are still miserably failing academically and drag the country’s PISA scores lower every 3 years. No wonder the smartest amongst them become “scholars” of the Quran rather than of theoretical physics.

    • Replies: @Talha
  166. Anon[198] • Disclaimer says:
    @DFH

    National necessity– laughed at when Prussians claim it, solemnly accepted when Brits do.

    • Replies: @LondonBob
  167. @Talha

    Why would our ulema be trying to earn Nobel Prizes?! They study the religion. It’s like asking why hockey players don’t write dissertations in physics.

    Hockey players do not have, on average and by and large, the kind of IQ required to write a PhD dissertation in Physics.

    It is for the same reason that these ulemas “study” the religion — because they are too stupid to do anything else.

    Speaking of which, just before writing these lines, I learned minutes ago that one follower of your wonderful religion just stabbed 5 innocent passer-bys in Paris, killing one (maybe 2, it’s not clear yet), in the name of your pedophile-in-chief. But of course you are going to tell me that this sub-human piece of trash was not a real muslim, as opposed to you the “traditional” Sufi (which seems rather oxymoronic to me, as sufism is a late addition to the zoo of sects comprising your religion, but whatever).

    • Replies: @Talha
  168. Talha says:
    @French Basque

    On the other hand, the co-religionnaries of Talha, despite the fact that most of them are now second or third-generation “French”

    It’s fairly obvious we haven’t been sending you our best for a while, but why are you guys accepting them? I thought you guys were intelligent; what gives? You can complain about your multi-culti types just like I can complain about our extremists, but at least we’re inbred retards so it’s surprising that extremism isn’t more widespread…but what’s your excuse?

  169. @Bliss

    To call the Israelis greedy for land is obscenely unfair

    By historical standards that’s certainly true, but I think you understood what I meant. I just haven’t seen any convincing explanation how Israel’s ongoing settlements policy is going to end well…is Israel going to expel the Palestinians in those areas, grant them equal rights or permanently keep them in subordinate status? None of those options seem desirable to me.

    • Replies: @Bliss
  170. Bliss says:

    Netanyahu Was In Moscow. So What.

    So, was Putin in cahoots with Netanyahu and Trump in the synchronization of events this week, or was he set up to look like that?

    Trump announcing withdrawal from the Iran deal the day before Netanyahu stood as guest of honor at Russia’s big parade and Netanyahu massively attacking Iranian bases in Syria as soon as he returned to Israel sends a powerful message to Iran, doesn’t it?

  171. @German_reader

    Yes, and in fact the Oran massacre is only the tip of the iceberg.

    The father of friend, now deceased, was a young (commissioned) officer who served during the war in Algérie in a commando de chasse, those units who were instrumental in militarily defeating the FLN (again, we have to remember that de Gaulle gave independence to those would had actually been militarily defeated). A few years before he died I spent almost one afternoon speaking with this man about that war. He told me in particular of one occasion when they raided (too late alas) a village where a group of European civilian hostages had been brought by a group of fellaghas after having been abducted from a Pied-Noir settlement. I don’t event want to write here what he told me, that would be obscene, but suffice it to say that what he saw, especially what these animals had done to the women, was an absolute abomination. This rugged man, in his 70s at the time, and almost 50 years after the fact, was still visibly traumatized by what he saw. What surprises me the most is how he, and his fellow junior officers, managed to prevent their men from killing off the entire Arab village in retaliation. Placed in the same situation, I am certain that I would not have exercised such restraint.

    • Replies: @songbird
  172. Talha says:
    @French Basque

    It is for the same reason that these ulemas “study” the religion — because they are too stupid to do anything else.

    No – plenty of them are quite intelligent, they just decide to study the religion because it’s still something we consider important.

    When they decide to go into secular studies, they do just fine. This is one of my first teachers in Arabic; a credentialed Islamic scholar and doctor (who I recently attended a pre-Ramadan prep course with):
    “In 2006, he received degrees in both Shari’ah studies and Medicine. From 2007 to 2013, Shaykh Omar completed his medical residency in Anatomic and Clinical Pathology and fellowships in Hematopathology and Molecular Genetic Pathology at Washington University in St. Louis. During this time, he was also received formal authorization in the Islamic science of spiritual purification. Shaykh Omar is currently a staff physician at the Moffitt Cancer Center and an Assistant Professor of Oncological Sciences at the University of South Florida in Tampa where he resides.”

    http://pureway.org/shaykh-omar/

    But of course you are going to tell me that this sub-human piece of trash was not a real muslim

    No, he was a Muslim, but he was an extremist – you know you gotta kind of earn that label and passing out cookies and ice cream doesn’t do it. Extremists kill other Muslims with a passion, in far more numbers than non-Muslims, so why would they treat you guys nicely? Now if you think Islamic doctrine supports that, by all means – bring statements from our scholars or institutions that say killing innocents in Paris by going stab-happy is sanctioned by sacred law.

    which seems rather oxymoronic to me

    Sure but you have admitted you are fairly ignorant on the subject and don’t feel like studying it further. The fact that you would call Sufis a sect puts a further nail on that coffin. I mean it’s fine, call it and opine whatever – just don’t expect us to take it seriously.

    • Replies: @AaronB
    , @French Basque
  173. Jayce says:
    @for-the-record

    the goal in Iran is not a Persian Renaissance

    The US would never be able to accommodate any kind of Iranian nationalism because it’s so explicitly anti-Saudi, far more than the regime is. It is, however, the most viable and organic opposition to the mullahs, and where all the energy and real human capital is. That they’re even still taking about losers like MEK and minor ethnic separatists no one has ever heard of is some kind of bad joke.

    • Replies: @German_reader
  174. @Jayce

    The US would never be able to accommodate any kind of Iranian nationalism because it’s so explicitly anti-Saudi, far more than the regime is. It is, however, the most viable and organic opposition to the mullahs, and where all the energy and real human capital is.

    That sounds interesting, could you elaborate a bit on that?

  175. Mr. Hack says:
    @Mikhail

    There’s absolutely no evidence whatsoever to contradict that the majority of the Donbass rebels are indigenous to the territory of the former Ukrainian SSR. This includes the overall makeup of the Donbass leadership.

    I’m not sure how large the insurgent army was at its height, but Alexander Zakharchenko, the second self proclaimed preident of the DNR is on record stating:

    He said 3-4,000 Russians had joined the rebel ranks during the fighting and some had been killed. “Moreover, many soldiers are coming to us from Russia who prefer to spend their holidays not on the beach but shoulder-to-shoulder with their brothers, fighting for the freedom of Donbass,” he said.

    It’s also well known that many Chechens and Asians from the East and other soldiers of fortune were employed by the insurgents and helped swell their ranks.

    *Aleksander Borodai, the first ‘president of the DNR was a Russian.

    *Igor Girkin, a prominent commander was also a Russian.

    *Andrei Antyufeyev, a prominent politician within the DNR, also a Russian.

    *Igor Bezler, a commander, born in Crimea, held Russian citizenship.

    *Igor Gubarev, a self styled ‘governor’ certaainly has a Russian sounding name.

    Etc; etc;

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-27211501

  176. AaronB says:
    @Talha

    Europe is only capable of producing spiritually empty people like French Basque these days – all you have to do is smile and wait, Europe will fall into your hands like a ripe fruit. Or perhaps an overripe, rotten fruit.

    I was going to say you are probably chuckling inside, but I know you are not a malicious person, so you’re probably feeling more pity than anything else.

    I am willing to go out on a limb and guess that our good French Basque is over 50 years old – the hopeless generation of older Europeans, products of the nadir of European culture, that we must sadly write off. In a sad kind of way it’s amusing to hear them talk about “intelligence” and “technology”, bewildered that their countries are slipping away from them.

    As new generations of Europeans arise, and glimmers of spiritual health begin appearing, I am curious as to what direction they will take.

  177. Mr. Hack says:
    @Mikhail

    There’s absolutely no evidence whatsoever to contradict that the majority of the Donbass rebels are indigenous to the territory of the former Ukrainian SSR. This includes the overall makeup of the Donbass leadership.

    I’m not sure how large the insurgent army was at its height, but Alexander Zakharchenko, the second self proclaimed preident of the DNR is on record stating:

    He said 3-4,000 Russians had joined the rebel ranks during the fighting and some had been killed. “Moreover, many soldiers are coming to us from Russia who prefer to spend their holidays not on the beach but shoulder-to-shoulder with their brothers, fighting for the freedom of Donbass,” he said.

    It’s also well known that many Chechens and Asians from the East and other soldiers of fortune were employed by the insurgents and helped swell their ranks.

    *Aleksander Borodai, the first ‘president of the DNR was a Russian.

    *Igor Girkin, a prominent commander was also a Russian.

    *Andrei Antyufeyev, a prominent politician within the DNR, also a Russian.

    *Igor Bezler, a commander, born in Crimea, held Russian citizenship.

    *Igor Gubarev, a self styled ‘governor’ certainly has a Russian sounding name.

    Etc; etc;

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-27211501

    • Replies: @Mikhail
  178. Bliss says:
    @German_reader

    By historical standards that’s certainly true, but I think you understood what I meant.

    The euro land grab is not just historical, it is current. I am sure you must know that. For example, Russia is still occupying Siberia which is well over two thousand times the size of the West Bank.

    By recent historical standards the Jews haven’t behaved nearly as badly towards the Palestinians as you Germans have behaved towards Slavs, Gypsies, Jews, Africans. Or as Ukrainians behaved towards the Poles. Or as Arabs behaved towards Kurds. Or as Turks behaved towards Armenians. And so on…

    • Replies: @German_reader
    , @Dmitry
  179. songbird says:
    @French Basque

    I wonder how much press any of this sort of thing got in France at the time.

    I know I have certainly heard some very hair-raising tales, and it really surprises me that people fleeing for their lives were allowed to be followed in such numbers by the people who had made them flee for their lives.

    Amazing how many French support open borders today. I can only blame it on ignorance.

    • Replies: @French Basque
  180. I don’t know why you people are arguing with Talha or even consider him interesting and worth reading. I don’t mean this in a way to disparage Talha, who seems like a perfectly nice fellow and must have considerable patience to engage with the alt-right.

    Mohammedans are our enemies and what they believe is completely irrelevant. They need to be excluded from our lands, and one can further muse about destroying them completely. I personally entertain the fantasy that nuking Mecca will result in all Mohammedans simply slumping over, like the Zerg in StarCraft after you destroy the Overmind.

  181. @Talha

    It’s fairly obvious we haven’t been sending you our best for a while,

    The ones we got appear to be the smartest ones, at least from the limited studies that seem to indicate that second or third generation Arabs living here have slightly higher IQs than the national averages of their countries of origin. Not that it is still sufficient to make them anything else than a drag on the countries of destination, but still, that is to be acknowledged.

    but why are you guys accepting them? I thought you guys were intelligent; what gives?

    I for one am not accepting them, and in fact in the case of France (but also of all other European countries), opinion polls demonstrate a majority of the population saying that there are too many of them. Where there is a diversity of opinion is what “too many” means exactly, and what to do with those “too many”. In my case I think that “too many” means “all of them”, and regarding the solution I think something akin to Spain 1492 second edition is a good option. In addition I think the islamic religion should be entirely banned from here, and therefore the White converts would be given the choice to either apostasize publicly (but still be sent to the Kerguelen Archipelago ad perpetuam just to be safe) or to not recant their conversion and be sent to Adélie Land instead.

    You can complain about your multi-culti types just like I can complain about our extremists,

    Yes but at least our multi-culti types don’t wander around the streets of Algiers randomly stabbing people. Plus their are mostly boomers and dying off, the White youth here overwhelmingly supports the Front National or formations further to the Right, which is highly encouraging.

    but at least we’re inbred retards so it’s surprising that extremism isn’t more widespread…but what’s your excuse?

    You may be surprised but I am going to tell you that, in my opinion and based on my observation of the local muslim populace, the Salafi/extremist/terrorist ones appears to be made of the least stupid amongst them — at the very least, the less apathetic. The other ones just seem content to live off the welfare system and smoke the chicha in their filthy “kebab” outlets. Life is quite good around here for these losers.

    Sure but you have admitted you are fairly ignorant on the subject and don’t feel like studying it further.

    I amply study it indeed, but not by reading the dull islamic prose, but from a socio-ethnological angle: I just observe the life and works of the adherents to that religion. By the fruits you shall know the tree, you know? So I am just observing.

    On the other hand the buddhist yellow people who have settled around here, and there a quite a few of them, ten to be nice, industrious, respectful, their kids don’t sell drugs nor rape the local girls, are polite, etc. The difference in outcomes is self-evident. I don’t need to know sh!t about the theoretical foundations of buddhism to figure this out.

    • Replies: @Talha
  182. @AaronB

    guess that our good French Basque is over 50 years old

    Really not quite, fellow, not quite. You’re quite off the mark here. In addition I probably have several more children than you do and we are not “spiritually empty”.

    It is only that our religion is one that produces, you know, a civilized society, as opposed to shitholes like the ones that range all the way from Morocco to Pakistan.

    • Replies: @AaronB
    , @Jayce
  183. @Bliss

    For example, Russia is still occupying Siberia which is well over two thousand times the size of the West Bank.

    Are you expecting that Russia should give Siberia back to native groups or what is the relevance of this?

    By recent historical standards the Jews haven’t behaved nearly as badly towards the Palestinians as you Germans have behaved towards Slavs, Gypsies, Jews, Africans

    That’s true, but maybe you have noticed that afterwards Germany was quite a bit smaller than before.

    Or as Arabs behaved towards Kurds. Or as Turks behaved towards Armenians.

    One doesn’t really expect anything different from Arabs or Turks. The difference with Israel is that it’s presented as a Western-style democracy (the only one in the Mideast), deserving of Western support because of that, so standards are different.
    It’s of course true that by world historical standards, or indeed compared to many other regions even today, Israel’s misdeeds are pretty trivial, but I don’t think I’ve denied that. Netanyahu’s foreign policy machinations are probably quite dangerous though.

    • Replies: @Bliss
  184. Talha says:
    @AaronB

    I take no pleasure in the path of self-destruction many Europeans have decided to embark upon. I hope it is not too late to turn things around though. I do feel and hope, like you, that something better will emerge from the ashes. How it manifests itself is up for grabs.

    For now, people like myself are observing and learning from the mistakes of the West. They did not listen to the warnings of their elders…

    “Without a firm idea of what he lives for, man will not consent to live and will sooner destroy himself than remain on earth, even if there is bread all around him.” — Dostoevsky

    We will, inshaAllah, not make the same mistake.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @AaronB
  185. Dmitry says:
    @Bliss

    Russia is not ‘occupying Siberia’.

    About the tiny geographic size of Israel, I would agree. It is almost too small or too narrow sometimes to call a real country in some areas.

    I was driving all over Israel a couple of months ago – and I remember driving around the area near Hadera power station (we were looking for specific river where you can see turtles there), suddenly realizing the whole country is a narrow strip of fields from the sea to the West Bank.

    Also a lot of times you think ‘that’s nice hill over there’, and look on GPS on your phone and realize it is Arab lands in the West Bank.

    It actually feels like a ‘defying gravity’, that the country is defendable at all, especially when you pass through all the Arab towns inside these already small borders, and have so many Arabs everywhere on the streets.

    My view on Israel, even as a moderate politically, is that if they don’t become radically less liberal in the future, they will have trouble surviving.

  186. @songbird

    I wonder how much press any of this sort of thing got in France at the time.

    Almost none. The Gaullist regime had complete control over the radio and TV media (through ORTF), and most of the written press was controlled either by Gaullist conglomerates or was under socialist or communist control. The causes of this situation are to be found in the 1944-46 “Épuration”.

    it really surprises me that people fleeing for their lives were allowed to be followed in such numbers by the people who had made them flee for their lives.

    Indeed. At first it was said that those immigrants who started to flock along our shores immediately after Algeria became independent were going to be just “guest workers”. Until the Giscard administration in 1974 open the gates to “family regrouping”. The rest is history.

    Amazing how many French support open borders today. I can only blame it on ignorance.

    Ignorance, massive propaganda, virtue-signaling, it’s a mixed-bag of many causes. In addition we have to remember that we are since 1945 under the yoke of Jewish cabal.

    Not to be discounted also is the general cuckoldry of the Catholic hierarchy and of the older laity (Vatican-II reformist types, generally older people now). Traditionalist Catholicism on the other hand, albeit small in numbers, is the only one that produces religious vocations and large families — which are not exactly in favor of open borders.

    The youth is very promising however. I can see it in those of my kids and their friends who are old enough to engage in political movements. They do not even like the Front National which is too Jacobin and not respectful enough of local identities like ours. What appeals to the youth, especially of the regions with a strong local identity (Alsace, Savoie, Provence, Corsica, Nice, Basque Country) is Identitarian movements.

  187. AaronB says:
    @French Basque

    Ha ha ha, you don’t seem very civilized to me. All the beauty and glories of European civilization were created by people very different than you – you’re just living on rapidly disappearing inherited capital.

    Admit it, you’re over 50 :) And let me guess, you’re irreligious, and a materialist, and think the crowning glories of European civilization are a functioning subway system, indoor plumbing, and theoretical physics.

    If Europe continues to produce people like you, Talha’s compatriots will have rather an easy job of it.

    • Replies: @AP
    , @French Basque
  188. AP says:
    @AaronB

    You are not very good at figuring people out, are you?

  189. @AaronB

    As new generations of Europeans arise, and glimmers of spiritual health begin appearing, I am curious as to what direction they will take.

    Can you please point me to the glimmers of spiritual health that are beginning to arise among the new generation of Europeans (who to an increasing extent, of course, would not have been called European in the not-too-distant past)?

    Speaking of which, I am sure that everyone tonight has been riveted to their TV or smart phones watching that apotheosis of modern, and youthful, European civilization, Eurovision. Let me extend my sincerest congratulations to Greasy and Dmitry on the stunning victory of their favorite country. (“Pudeur” precludes me from asking Greasy if he would bang.)

  190. @Thorfinnsson

    I personally entertain the fantasy that nuking Mecca will result in all Mohammedans simply slumping over, like the Zerg in StarCraft after you destroy the Overmind.

    iirc the Overmind was only in the first game though, and afterwards the Zerg were even worse, so that analogy isn’t exactly encouraging. Probably better not to go for civilizational war against the entire world of Islam which could only end badly. Islamic immigration needs to be stopped completely though.

  191. AaronB says:
    @Talha

    I know you take no pleasure in it – and I appreciate that. It’s a testament to the spiritual superiority of your civilization, at the moment.

    If Europe finds itself again, then a Christian Europe can live respectfully and at peace with the Muslim world.

    I’ve sadly concluded that turning things around means waiting for the younger generation – the older generation cannot change its ways.

    You are wise to observe us and learn from our mistakes – do not exchange a meaningful life for theoretical physics. As you can see, you will end up losing both.

    • Replies: @German_reader
  192. Talha says:
    @Thorfinnsson

    Mohammedans are our enemies and what they believe is completely irrelevant. They need to be excluded from our lands, and

    This is fine – make it happen by coming up with a public forum to get the ball rolling. I came up with a game plan for you guys on previous threads:
    “If you feel strongly about this, I suggest getting with your congressmen/senators and proposing legislation to add amendments to the Constitution to make exceptions to the religion-neutral clauses to make exceptions for Islam and Muslims. A super-majority will likely be required. A good strategy would be to come up with a strong single-issue advocacy group. Once this initial step is accomplished, the doors will be open legally for; 1) stripping Muslims of citizenship, 2) excluding them from certain areas of influence, 3) consigning and forcing them into certain regions/areas/locales or 4) expelling them to Muslim lands (with or without compensation).

    Come up with a single-issue organization that votes as a bloc on only one thing; legal relocation of Muslims from the West – forget abortion, foreign policy, economic trade pacts, welfare, etc. Make every representative know they will be graded and publicly made known. I would suggest working with the NRA (the preeminent one-issue group) to get tips on how to proceed – you will likely have a good amount of overlap:

    https://www.nrapvf.org/grades/

    When I receive my official Federal notice in the mail that I am no longer considered a citizen and have a certain number of days to leave; I will start getting my finances in gear, sell my property, etc. because I am obligated by the sacred law to obey the legal canon of my host country.”

    one can further muse about destroying them completely.

    That’s fine too – yo come getcha some boy! Just don’t be a wuss about it and send others like a neocon pansy. Don’t be a coward and be willing to go there yourself. Maybe if your plan of expulsion works out, me and my sons will meet up with you on the beach.

  193. @Thorfinnsson

    At the personal level the guy might be a nice fellow indeed. This is why it is tempting to appeal to his character and intelligence, he might recant the disastrous ideology that is poisoning his mind.

    When looking at the problem posed to the existence of humanity by African demographics and islamic growth, the conflict between Russians and Ukrainians appears even more tragic. I sincerely hope these guys will find some sort of arrangement like we were able to find in Western Europe between formerly extremely inimical neighbors. We will not be too many Europeans to prevent the African hordes from eating everything nice we have ever produced, then eating us, and then eating each other until the final extinction of all forms of life on this planet.

  194. @AaronB

    Poor sap. In an earlier post I gave away the birthdate of my wife’s mother in the context of the exodus of the Pied-Noirs in 1962. Look it up. If you can subtract two integer numbers you might be able to get a decent estimate of my age. I also had an earlier discussion with Thorfinnson about Puritanism and Catholicism. So much for the atheist. You must be either of limited intellect, or of limited attention span.

  195. AaronB says:
    @for-the-record

    The glimmers are there, you just have to search for them. For instance, materialists like Steve Sailer and John Derbyshire instinctively capitulate to whatever group happens to be in power, like all good materialists. But it is heartening to see the growing chorus of younger whites who question the legitimacy of our rulers.

    Even Thorfinson, on this thread, is rather remarkably showing glimmers of concern for establishing a brotherhood, showing he understands the emptiness of individualism.

    You’re not over 50, are you Thorfinnson? Didn’t think so.

  196. AP says:
    @French Basque

    When I was a teenager I enjoyed reading Camus. I once went to a show in Detroit by the band the Cure, where they played a louder punk version of “Killing an Arab” in the most Arabic city in America, with the crowd singing along.

    I have thought about how great would it have been if there had remained a real piece of France in northern Africa – some mountains, some beaches, some desert- populated by civilized people. There was enough of a population to have made this a viable reality if they all moved to, say Oran and its surroundings. If they Harkis had joined the French in this enclave, do you think their grandchildren would have radicalized, or would they have remained loyal to France across generations?

    How it could have been utterly abandoned and destroyed is shocking.

  197. Talha says:
    @French Basque

    slightly higher IQs than the national averages of their countries of origin

    OK – what does average IQ have to do with it? Have you never heard of tails on a curve? Why didn’t you test for a minimum IQ before letting them in? This is a poor excuse, intelligent people wouldn’t hide behind this level of incompetence.

    In addition I think the islamic religion should be entirely banned from here, and therefore the White converts would be given the choice to either apostasize publicly (but still be sent to the Kerguelen Archipelago ad perpetuam just to be safe) or to not recant their conversion and be sent to Adélie Land instead.

    Totally support you turning France back into a Christian land and bringing apostasy and blasphemy laws. I’m pretty tired of the virtue signalling to be honest.

    Let’s make it happen folks!

    Salafi/extremist/terrorist ones appears to be made of the least stupid amongst them

    AaronB, you taking notes? More evidence that High-IQ might be dysgenic.

    Life is quite good around here for these losers.

    So you import low-IQ population and then support their laziness with a generous welfare system. More incompetence…this is not looking good for you, bro. These policies seem pretty…ahem…stupid – and I’m being generous here.

    I amply study it indeed, but not by reading the dull islamic prose, but from a socio-ethnological angle:

    Got it, when it comes to Islam – your authority is “muh feelz” discourse. Not surprising really.

    On the other hand the buddhist yellow people who have settled around here

    Buyer’s remorse…boy I bet you wish you could turn back the clock on and swap on that one eh? You guys were all up in IndoChina, you were up close and personal with them – so why didn’t you import a bunch of those guys? Again, seems fairly stupid to me.

    • Replies: @French Basque
  198. Bliss says:
    @Talha

    You just explained why he didn’t kill any innocents. .

    You obviously have no sense of ethics and morality, or justice, if you think that pubic hair is proof of guilt.

    men of Bani Qurayza (a small minority for sure) who did not violate the covenant were let go

    And just in the previous sentence this congenital liar wrote: “Military-age males weren’t innocent in a tribal war”. Have you no shame man?

    Explain how the pre-teen boys who just began sprouting pubes were guilty of violating the covenant?

    Btw, the covenant this scoundrel is talking about was one with a robber who attacked caravans stole the goods and killed or enslaved the merchants (released when ransomed).

    • Replies: @Talha
  199. @for-the-record

    I have nothing to do with secular Israel. Nothing.

    I have no quarrel with Europeans but a true Jewish state would not participate in such a competition. The young woman who won this competition sung some type of barbaric Moroccan song, not a Jewish song, as far as I know.

    The only positive thing about this is that is a huge fuck you to the Russophiles right after the Gaza massacres and bombing of Syria. Europeans just aren’t that into Palestine/Lebanon/Syria/Iran.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  200. @French Basque

    If you can subtract two integer numbers you might be able to get a decent estimate of my age

    This method wouldn’t work for your President, though.

    • Replies: @French Basque
  201. AaronB says:
    @French Basque

    So you’re not an atheist, and not over 50?

    The situation, then, is worse than I thought. Poor Europe.

    Well, I never did think it was the entirety of the younger generation.

    I continue to have faith that the newer generations of Europe will produce fewer people like you. Perhaps you are an anachronism.

    In the meantime, carry on.

  202. @AaronB

    If Europe finds itself again, then a Christian Europe can live respectfully and at peace with the Muslim world.

    There wasn’t that much peace or respect between Christendom and Islam for more than a 1000 years. I don’t think Urban II could be accused of materialism or atheism.
    It’s really strange how you think religion is some magical cure for everything. And then you don’t even tell us which religion.

    • Replies: @AaronB
  203. AaronB says:
    @German_reader

    That was in the youth of Islam, when it took hold of a fresh barbaric people, much like the fierce Germanic tribes. Religions grow up. The Turks, another fierce barbarian tribe, took up the mantle of violence from the Arabs. But there are no fierce barbarian tribes left.

    There may well be conflict again between a Christian Europe and the Muslim world, but there need not be.

    I don’t think religion is the magical cure for everything – I merely think it is indispensable. But life on this earth will never be perfect. Which is, incidentally, the first lesson of religion.

    I don’t think this is a strange position – but the most rational view one can take if one is willing to be truly rational, and not stop at the limited rationality of modern science.

    As for which religion – any. Except Judaism.

    • Replies: @Talha
  204. @French Basque

    what do you think of the Rafale fighter program?

    • Replies: @French Basque
  205. @Talha

    Look, of course these policies are stupid. That is exactly what I wrote. It was stupid to let these people in. Wee never brought them here… they came out of their own volition, and as a result of pathological altruism (a defect that seems to predominantly affect Europeans, I will readily agree with that), many Europeans did not seem to care much. For some time. Please note that all opinion polls indicate that this time has passed. It is only the oligarchic elite that has not noticed yet.

    Simply observing that in France, muslim inmates represent over 70% of the total, whereas as a fraction of the general population the muslim one is only in the 10-15% range depending on how you could them, is not exactly “much feelz”. These numbers are similar all across Europe. Muslim Somalis have turned Stockholm into the world’s rape capital.

    Aside from terrorists, your ilk mostly mostly produces drug dealers, rapists, welfare recipients, domestic abusers and violent criminals. In addition muslim women are so fat, ugly and generally disgraceful that their men find it necessary to hide them from public sight by means of cheap potato sacks covering them from head to toes.

    Regarding Indochina, your comment is a complete non sequitur.

    From your comment to Thorfinnson, it appears that you live in the US of A. How funny if that is the case. Please re-assure me that it is not the case — because if it is, your case is even more pathetic than I thought it was initially (assuming that you were posting from some wonderful islamic country).

    • Replies: @Talha
  206. Bliss says:
    @German_reader

    One doesn’t really expect anything different from Arabs or Turks.

    Give it a rest pal. You aren’t all that. The Arabs and Turks never behaved as badly as you Germans did.

    It’s of course true that by world historical standards, or indeed compared to many other regions even today, Israel’s misdeeds are pretty trivial

    Exactly.

    As for Siberia only God knows what the future holds. But it seems probable that it will eventually fall into China’s hands. Russia’s shrinkage is not over yet.

    • Replies: @German_reader
    , @AaronB
  207. @for-the-record

    Excellent point indeed :) In my case it does however because I find it badly distasteful to marry someone who is the age of your mother!

  208. Jayce says:
    @French Basque

    There’s a kind of dumbed down version of perennialism that seems unfortunately far too common in some parts of the dissident right. There are very fine distinctions to be made between tradition and plain backwardsness, between illiberal alternatives and totalitarianism. Not all old things are necessarily good just because they’re old, and certainly not all strands of religious thought were created equal. It’s a real false equivalency of the worst kind to assume that wanting Europeans to take Christianity more seriously must go hand-in-hand with developing a weird fetish for Islam.

    • Replies: @AaronB
    , @French Basque
  209. @Bliss

    The Arabs and Turks never behaved as badly as you Germans did.

    Blah. Turks certainly behaved horribly, just not as efficiently as Germans. They also got largely away with it and to this very day pretend they’re victims and never did anything wrong. So give it a rest “pal”, the amount of German-shaming I’m willing to take does have its limits.

    • Replies: @songbird
  210. AaronB says:
    @Jayce

    But it is also a false equivalency to think that loving your own religion means hating that of another. In fact, healthy self-love does not involve the need to denigrate others.

    The European past is one of swinging between extremes. Will that always be true?

    Islam right now is spiritually healthier than Europe. Focusing on Europe’s technological superiority is obtuse.

    • Replies: @Bliss
  211. Mikhail says: • Website
    @Mr. Hack

    No denying that there has been assistance from Russia and elsewhere for the Donbass rebels. However, it’s not as great as some suggest. From an at times snooty (phony, crony, baloney) and rather hypocritical (but in a number of instances) good source

    https://irrussianality.wordpress.com/2016/09/14/origins-of-the-war-in-donbass/

    I thoroughly recommend the latest podcast on Sean’s Russia Blog, in which Sean Guillory interviews Baylor University professor Serhiy Kudelia about the origins of the war in Donbass. You can listen to it here. For those of you who don’t have the spare time to listen to the whole thing, here are some key points.

    Many local officials helped the separatists in the early stages of the uprising, including helping to organize the referendums in Donetsk and Lugansk provinces in May 2014. In ‘the absence of the state’, which had collapsed following the change of power in Kiev, they were ‘hedging their bets’, but nobody was telling them what to do, Kudelia says. On the basis of research he conducted in Donbass, he comments that ‘There was clearly no hierarchical subordination to any elite actor at the very top. And a lot of the decisions that were taken by local officials were taken on their own.’
    ‘Strelkov was not an agent of the [Russian] state’, in Kudelia’s opinion. He and other Russians who came to Ukraine were ‘private individuals’ acting on their own initiative.
    The recently released tapes of Sergei Glazyev’s telephone conversations with anti-Maidan activists are ‘not very convincing’, in the sense of not proving that the anti-Maidan movement was being run by the Russian government. There is an ‘absence of a smoking gun in these tapes’. Glazyev is recorded speaking with activists in Odessa, Kharkov, and Zaporozhye, but not in Donbass. Furthermore, the conversations suggest that the activists were not in contact with any representatives of the Russian government in Ukraine. That in turn suggests that the anti-Maidan movement was not being controlled by members of the Russian intelligence services operating within Ukraine, as the Ukrainian government claimed.
    ‘A careless attitude of the Ukrainian government towards the use of indiscriminate force against the separatists … hardened grievances … and a sense of the illegitimacy of the Kiev government’, and so strengthened the rebellion.
    Kudelia argues that the war in Donbass meets the definition of a civil war. In August 2014, it became an ‘internationalized civil war’. But even after that it remained essentially about internal Ukrainian affairs.

    Towards the end of the interview, Kudelia remarks that a correct understanding of the origins of the war is essential to resolving it. If the Kiev government is right, and the war was primarily the result of Russian aggression, then the solution lies in pressuring Russia. If, however, the war was mainly a product of local grievances, then the solution must involve addressing those grievances. That in turn requires Kiev to take the rebels’ demands seriously and negotiate with them.

    Regular readers of this blog will not be surprised to learn that I found Kudelia’s analysis most convincing. I would have liked Guillory to ask him a few more questions concerning the role of Western states in the conflict. To what extent has the West’s focus on Russia encouraged the Ukrainian government’s misinterpretation of the war as being primarily caused by Russia rather than internal grievances? And to what extent, therefore, must the West share some of the blame for what has happened?

    Maybe not such an either-or situation (Russian inspired or legit regional gripe) as presented. Rather, a combo of two.

    Somewhat reminded of the Vietnam War. Some would say the VC were just puppets of North Vietnam. The reality was that the VC had considerable support within South Vietnam. Hence, the VC and North Vietnam were simultaneous realities.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  212. AaronB says:
    @Bliss

    Of course the Arabs and Turks behaved as badly as the Germans.

    And so did Jews. Gibbon records some particularly bloodthirsty massacres of Greek communities, unprovoked of course. There are many examples. And if the Old Testament is even partially historical, which it undoubtedly is, then the mind shudders.

    The Germans have the distinction of being more efficient, and perhaps, the best excuse.

    Not to mention, as George Santayana explains in his wonderful little book Egotism In German Philosophy, the Germans got their egotism from the Jews.

  213. Dmitry says:
    @for-the-record

    She is going to be the Israeli version of Serduchka.

    Well done for Israel – they (TV show that chose her), had a good understanding of target audience and that she had a good chance to win. And they executed the plan and completely troll Europe.

    Russia is spending a lot of money to win this every year and using the best singers, and often almost winning and failing at the last minute. Remember the fiasco with Sergey Lazarev (despite the government deleting all his porn videos off the internet), which allowed Ukraine to troll the subsequent year.

    -

    By the way, before saying Eurovision is just for the gays. Let us remember Dima Bilan!

  214. Russophile updates

    SyrianGirl: Since Syria saved Russia from blockade and starvation by giving them a naval base, Russia is now morally obligated to attack Israel. If Russia refuses to do so, it is Russia’s loss as Syria will have no choice but to kick Russia out of Syria. Israel will never dare attack Syria again after Syria shelled some empty fields in the Golan a couple of days ago.

    Elijah: Everything is going according to plan. Okay, yeah maybe Hezbollah and Iran aren’t going to attack Israel like I promised 5 times a week for past 2 years but the SAA remains unstoppable and Israel *might* cut it’s bombing of Syrian territory down to as little as every other day out of fear of the SAA which is now universally recognized as the strongest land army in human history. Netanyahu wants war because he is worried that he is about to be sent to prison. Iran and Hezbollah will not fight a war because they know it will help Bibi with his domestic problems.

    newly-anti-Putin-Russophiles: Putin is controlled by the Jews and is probably Jewish himself despite the fact that he is possibly the least Jewish looking guy ever. The only reason that Putin sold the s-300 to Iran was because Iran has already made a copy of the s-300 that is much more advanced than the Russian version (they are seriously saying this). It’s okay though because Russia is weak and the Resistance Axis doesn’t need Russia. Also, we never said anything about Israel anyway, the goal is to defeat ISIS and we are doing just that! Oh and the slow extermination of the Houthi’s in Yemen isn’t actually happening. Nothing to see here, move along.

    sticking-with-Putin-Russophiles: Putin has lured Netanyahu into a trap. Can’t you see that every time that Israel blows up an Iranian base and kills scores of Syrian/Iranian troops that it lulls Israel into complacency and while toughening up the Syrian and Iranian armies? Putin will shortly deploy a million Russian troops and 1000 aircraft in Syria and then personally lead a tank charge to conquer Israel.

    actual-Russians: You guys are willing to fight Zionism to the last Russian. We owe Syria nothing. Based on the videos that the IDF has released, the Syrians are too stupid to properly operate the equipment we’ve given them already so there is no point in giving them more advanced systems since they probably won’t even be able to figure out how to turn those systems on.

    I don’t like to kick people when they are down, but the Russophiles make it hard not to. They are just so much fun.

  215. @Greasy William

    Good question. I am not entirely unbiased here for two reasons: (1) I have served in the French military — although this was a few years before the Rafale was deployed and it was still in its test phase (2) because the Dassault plant where the wing panels are made is not far from where I live.

    Last time I checked (the numbers might have varied, not to order of magnitude), the all-inclusive hourly flight cost of a Rafale is 15k€, about the same as that of a Gripen, whereas it is about 20k€ for a F35. This means that from a purely economic perspective it was a good program.

    But there is of course more to the story; I think it is generally a good thing to retain the technological ability to produce our own fighters, even if it were more costly to do so. But it turns out that it isn’t even the case, as the Eurofighter development program has cost about thrice as much as that of the Rafale.

    As a general rule, Dassault does not seem to be overly concerned with producing stealth planes. I remember that back when I was in the military in the mid-90s, it was fanciful to criticize them for that and to compare (poorly) the Rafale design with that of the much stealthier American planes. In retrospect, it is now quite obvious that stealthiness does not matter so much as AA/AD systems have progressed much faster to the point of negating what originally seemed to be a decisive advantage.

    On the negative side, its engines certainly lacks the power of the Russian fighter engines. I would like to see our fighters have more powerful engines, but to be honest this is a long-lasting tradition to have under-powered fighter jets here, and the Rafale is certainly an improvement with respect to the 2000 for example.

    I believe that so far only 4 or 5 Rafales have been lost (all due to accidents) and considering the fact that this plane has been deployed for more than 15 years now and on all theaters around the globe, this is not a bad result indeed.

  216. @Jayce

    It’s a real false equivalency of the worst kind to assume that wanting Europeans to take Christianity more seriously must go hand-in-hand with developing a weird fetish for Islam.

    Are you sure you wanted to address that remark to me, and not to AaronB?

    Because I certainly agree with you, especially

    certainly not all strands of religious thought were created equal.

    which is exactly in the same vein as what I was telling Talha earlier.

  217. songbird says:
    @German_reader

    Bliss seems to have an odd obsession with Siberia.

    Here’s one for you, Bliss: do you know where blond hair came from? It actually came to Europe from an ancient population called Ancient North Eurasians who lived in Siberia. In fact, all Europeans have some ANE ancestors. Mal’ta Boy who was from this original ANE population was found near Lake Baikal – that is pretty far east.

    Of course, that group doesn’t exist any more – there was a lot of population turnover in Eurasia, but for some reason Bliss thinks Europeans should stay west of the Urals, and let the Mongolians or Chinese have the rest or something.

  218. But there is of course more to the story; I think it is generally a good thing to retain the technological ability to produce our own fighters, even if it were more costly to do so.

    I agree. I actually think that the US would benefit a lot if the UK, France, Germany, Japan and South Korea would be more independent. But of those countries, only France is 100% self sufficient in terms of modern arms.

    But it turns out that it isn’t even the case, as the Eurofighter development program has cost about thrice as much as that of the Rafale.

    The Eurofighter was always a retarded idea.

    As a general rule, Dassault does not seem to be overly concerned with producing stealth planes. I remember that back when I was in the military in the mid-90s, it was fanciful to criticize them for that and to compare (poorly) the Rafale design with that of the much stealthier American planes.

    ???

    The F-22 didn’t enter service until 2005 and the Rafale has a much lower RCS than the F-16.

    In retrospect, it is now quite obvious that stealthiness does not matter so much as AA/AD systems have progressed much faster to the point of negating what originally seemed to be a decisive advantage.

    Err…. I dunno about that. So far the F-22 and F-35 look phenomenal in exercises. We’ll have to see if it carries over into actual combat.

    But Macron and Merkel have already announced that they are pushing ahead on their own 5th gen design, so obviously France and Germany must believe in the importance of stealth.

    I think that France didn’t want to build a totally LO fighter back when they did the Rafale because the technology was just too bleeding edge and any program would have been susceptible to cost overruns and delays, which unlike the US, France could not afford.

  219. Bliss says:
    @AaronB

    But it is also a false equivalency to think that loving your own religion means hating that of another.

    You must be the most confused yet most pretentious person here. If you really believed the above (and if you really preferred Buddhism as you keep saying) then why the hell do you keep defending and promoting Islam which is the worst enemy Buddhism ever faced and which is the most hateful, intolerant, aggressive religion extant?

    • Replies: @AaronB
    , @Anon
  220. ???

    The F-22 didn’t enter service until 2005 and the Rafale has a much lower RCS than the F-16.

    Let me clarify this as the dates might not have been immediately obvious: I served in 1995/96, only 4 years after the first flight of the Rafale, which was still in test phase and would not be deployed before another half dozen years. I don’t know how old you are, but in those years I can tell you that there was absolute fascination amongst young technology-oriented people like me and my peers for the F117. You have to remember however that this was before the crash of one in Serbia and before the realization that its signature was in fact not that small for Thales radars in particular. As a result it was very fanciful to denigrate the Rafale design, as opposed to the smart, stealth American design of the F117 which would, in addition, be further improved in the upcoming F22 (due to be deployed initially more or less at the same time as the Rafale).

    So far the F-22 and F-35 look phenomenal in exercises. We’ll have to see if it carries over into actual combat.

    Indeed. On the other hand the Rafale has seen a lot of real action and amongst the multi-role fighters of its generation it is probably the one that has seen the most. Real combat is the only thing that matters. For example and in a related area, the FAMAS assault rifle gun was great on paper but proved to be very unreliable (at least for the non-retrofitted versions) in real conditions because of its susceptibility to jamming when dirty. In view and based on my experience with firearms, both in military and sports/civilian contexts, given the choice I would prefer to carry an AK74 over any other individual weapon with me. But of course the French bureaucrats made the wrong choice and bought that HK416 POS to replace the FAMAS.

  221. @Felix Keverich

    Look, I like you Felix, often I feel you’re my only ideological ally here, but I disagree with almost all of this.

    1. As you note Jews have major influence over the Western media. If you want Russia to take Iran’s place as the main enemy of the Jewish people, this is a good way to go about it. Unfortunately, it will also be accompanied by the dislocation of major NATO forces to the Baltics and the Ukraine far earlier than would otherwise be the case.

    2. Russia spends very little on pensions to emigre Jews. Abrogating this will set back rule of law and institute potentially very harmful precedents, which might very well rebound against Russians.

    3. Kristallnacht 2.0 combines the worst of both the above two points.

    • Replies: @Felix Keverich
  222. AaronB says:
    @Bliss

    Buddhists are pretty tolerant of other religions.

    I obviously don’t agree with your characterization of Islam. I think that honor goes to Judaism. But even Judaism has a good side and should be tolerated in its proper sphere.

    I also don’t have a static view of history or nations – the behavior of barbarian Arab or Turkish tribes one step removed from paganism is no more essential to core Islam than that of the Spanish in the Americas is to core Catholicism.

  223. Dmitry says:
    @Greasy William

    The young woman who won this competition sung some type of barbaric Moroccan song, not a Jewish song, as far as I know.

    I didn’t watch the show. But checking up about it now. Israel’s song was not Moroccan. The woman is like Serdyuchka.

    According to the televoting results, Israel won top votes scores in Ukraine, Georgia, Sweden, Russia.

    Well about Ukraine, it was predictable –

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  224. Dmitry says:
    @Dmitry

    Watching the Serduchka video at 2:41 – even for Eurovision, they had to disrespect Victory Day with this poppy shit.

  225. Mr. Hack says:
    @Mikhail

    So we go from:

    There’s absolutely no evidence whatsoever to contradict that the majority of the Donbass rebels are indigenous to the territory of the former Ukrainian SSR. This includes the overall makeup of the Donbass leadership.

    to:

    Maybe not such an either-or situation (Russian inspired or legit regional gripe) as presented. Rather, a combo of two.

    A little bit of progress. Read a little bit more:

    There is no doubt that Russian troops have fought and are fighting in Ukraine, contrary to Putin’s “not one Russian soldier” assertion. The civic organization, Cargo 200, publishes names, photos, addresses, and military records of 167 regular troops “killed” and 187 “MIA” and 305 mercenaries “killed” and 796 “MIA.” The artillery and tank warfare in Ukraine leaves behind unidentifiable body parts. Most of the MIAs, therefore, are really KIAs. The Cargo 200 figures are underestimates because families of fallen soldiers risk losing death benefits if they talk. Societies of Russian Mothers gather information from grieving families to arrive at casualty figures of up to 3,500 KIA. Young Russian soldiers in Ukraine routinely post pictures on vKontakte (a Russian version of Facebook) of themselves in Ukraine and identify their unit. A vKontake habitué going silent is a sign of yet another combat death. We will not have an authoritative figure on Russian soldier deaths in Ukraine as long as Putin keeps such casualties a state secret.

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/paulroderickgregory/2016/09/06/russian-combat-medals-put-lie-to-putins-claim-of-no-russian-troops-in-ukraine/#32850d413809

    • Replies: @Mikhail
  226. Anon[198] • Disclaimer says:
    @Bliss

    You must be the most confused yet most pretentious person here.

    But he’s entertaining and once in a while has real insights.

  227. Talha says:
    @Bliss

    pubic hair is proof of guilt.

    It isn’t – it’s proof of puberty and thus biological adulthood. The proof of innocence was when a handful of men came out of the besieged fortification and declared they denounced the breaking of the covenant; they were free to go. The details we have of the incident (including what you keep bringing up) aren’t of the most authentic nature, but that’s all we have to work with.

    Explain how the pre-teen boys who just began sprouting pubes were guilty of violating the covenant?

    Prove that they were pre-teen. All you have to go with is that, if they were confused about the adulthood, that’s how they confirmed it. Plenty of Muslims fought when they were 14 or 15 at the time; they were certainly present at Badr.

    Even at one of the BJJ dojos my son has attended, they let advanced 13 year olds train with and grapple with the adult class.

    with a robber who attacked caravans stole the goods and killed or enslaved the merchants (released when ransomed).

    No, he was the head of a state that waged economic warfare against the rival city. Cutting off ability for Makkah merchant caravans was the intelligent course of action. It’s what economic sanctions and blockades are about and an age old practice that was fairly common until recently:
    “The 13 Colonies, having declared their Independence, had only 31 ships comprising the Continental Navy. To add to this, they issued Letters of Marque to privately owned, armed merchant ships and Commissions for privateers, which were outfitted as warships to prey on enemy merchant ships.”

    http://www.usmm.org/revolution.html

    “A Letter of Marque authorized armed merchant ships to challenge any likely enemy vessel that crossed its path during the course of a commercial voyage. A Privateer Commission was issued to vessels, called privateers or cruisers, whose primary objective was to disrupt enemy shipping. The ideal target was an unarmed, or lightly armed, commercial ship.

    https://www.nps.gov/revwar/about_the_revolution/privateers.html

    You really haven’t done much in the way of reading about military history have you? Especially of Late Antiquity? Your arguments are basically more of post-modern “muh feelz” discourse from the type of people that shouldn’t be let anywhere near a command and control position in a serious conflict. Maybe you can also fault the Rashidun for not having their soldiers go through transgender sensitivity training.

    • Replies: @LondonBob
  228. Talha says:
    @French Basque

    they came out of their own volition

    Yeah – and you have no border controls? I mean, I’m sure some people want to come into my house to grab my stuff, which is why I lock the doors and windows. Again, poor excuse.

    pathological altruism (a defect that seems to predominantly affect Europeans

    Man – I really wish that was on display during WW2 – you guys could have seriously used some of that pathological altruism then – let me tell ya! Lot of pathology on display though.

    Aside from terrorists, your ilk mostly mostly produces drug dealers, rapists, welfare recipients, domestic abusers and violent criminals.

    Yeah man, when Muslims go off track from religion – they seem to go whole hog, don’t they? My suggestion is to deport these violators to places that will lock that crap down with some good old fashioned Shariah. Again, why are you guys coddling these folks – you know we would never accept non-Muslims behaving like this in our lands.

    their men find it necessary to hide them from public sight

    No – we don’t like other men staring at our women because we still have a sense of ghayrah (which you guys used to have – ie. we aren’t cucks). You could learn something from us. Why do like men staring at your females? Especially if they are attractive?
    “For his forthcoming book, ‘Tell Me What You Want: The Science of Sexual Desire and How It Can Help Improve Your Sex Life,’ Lehmiller surveyed thousands of Americans and found that 58% of men and about a third of women had fantasized about cuckolding.

    https://www.cnn.com/2018/01/25/health/cuckolding-sex-kerner/index.html

    If that is right, that’s a majority chief – you guys are in trouble.

    is a complete non sequitur.

    Why? If you needed cheap third world labor after WW2 – why didn’t you allow Buddhists from Vietnam to come in?

    it appears that you live in the US of A.

    I do – I didn’t really have a choice in the matter since I was 6 when my father moved us here. I ended up marrying a White convert. She seems to have some funny idea that she has a right to be here – women can be so silly. Anyway, I like living in the US – it’s a great place to be. I get along great with my neighbors, my boss has said he doesn’t know what he’d do without me and our mayor just sent me and my wife a letter recently asking us to extend our memberships on our city’s respective advisory boards. So, I’m living my life doing my part to make my little area of the US benefit just as I have benefited from her.

    Now, my wife and I have drafted plans for a few places in the Muslim world we would move to in case things get difficult in the US or I am formally stripped of citizenship and asked to leave. Egypt, Jordan and UAE (even Madinah) are all in the running. In fact, if I see my kids going off track from their religion, I will also consider moving. As of now, they are doing well; memorizing Qur’an coming with me to our weekly dhikr gatherings, have a respect and regard for our scholars, etc. so alhamdulillah.

    I have no problems moving back to the Muslim world; my teachers have already helped me prioritize material objectives well below the more important ones.

  229. inertial says:
    @German_reader

    But I still think that Israel gets away with way more dubious stuff than any Western country would (one just has to compare how demonized Poland and Hungary are)

    But Poland and Hungary are not demonized. Their current governments are. Incidentally, Netanyahu’s election and reelection back in the day cause an almost Trump level of butthurt among the New York Times types.

    As for getting away with stuff, in my opinion, among the white and relatively civilized places, Estonia and Latvia get away with far worse things than Israel. The Ukraine too, in recent years.

    • Replies: @utu
    , @German_reader
  230. Talha says:
    @AaronB

    There may well be conflict again between a Christian Europe and the Muslim world, but there need not be.

    Exactly. If cooler heads prevail, then we have good things to look forward to. I’m not talking about acceptance of mass immigration or silly perennialist camp-fires where we all agree that everyone is correct, but serious cooperation on things we can agree upon to push back materialist dogma and culture. I’ve seen extremely hopeful signs from the work that well-grounded traditional Muslim scholars are doing with the normative voices from Catholicism – that has been one of the most successful cooperative initiatives I have seen yet.

    I remember Dr. Robert P George, a man I respect deeply, tell Muslims straight; learn from us – for the sake of your children’s souls do not make the same mistakes we did in dealing with modernity and materialism.

    But life on this earth will never be perfect. Which is, incidentally, the first lesson of religion.

    Pure gold.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @AaronB
  231. Dan Hayes says:
    @Talha

    Talha,

    Usually your demeanor is less vituperative than displayed in this post. Perhaps that’s why you failed to incorporate your usual “Peace” postscript?

    But anyway I almost invariably find your postings very informative from a viewpoint I would not otherwise encounter.

    • Replies: @Talha
  232. Talha says:
    @Dan Hayes

    Hey Dan,

    The person I’m bantering with considers my “Peace” sign off to be evidence of taqiyyah so I’m avoiding its use with him.

    Vituperative, yes it would seem so – I am human. :)

    He did call our women fat and ugly…

    I thank you very much for taking the time to read my (often lengthy) posts.

    Peace.

    • Agree: Dan Hayes
  233. melanf says:
    @Talha

    No – we don’t like other men staring at our women because we still have a sense of ghayrah (which you guys used to have – ie. we aren’t cucks). You could learn something from us. Why do like men staring at your females? Especially if they are attractive?

    usually men if they have beautiful wife/girfriend like to show off (to another man) how beautiful they wife/girlfriend. This is not the trend of modern times – it was in the times of Herodotus (remember legend about king Candaules ) and before.

    • Replies: @DFH
  234. DFH says:
    @melanf

    This is not the trend of modern times – it was in the times of Herodotus (remember legend about king Candaules ) and before.

    It wasn’t then either, which is why she’s ashamed and demands that he kills Candaules.

    • Replies: @melanf
  235. melanf says:
    @DFH

    It wasn’t then either, which is why she’s ashamed and demands that he kills Candaules.

    Well, she wasn’t offended by what she was showing. She was offended that she was shown naked.

    Regardless Candaules and Gyges – beautiful girls like to be “shown” (and love to be admired by men). And men who have beautiful girlfriend, like to show the beauty of their girfriend to others. That’s human nature

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  236. LondonBob says:
    @German_reader

    It would presumably be an old system that was no longer needed as the Russian unit would have been given the S400. So cost could also be seen as zero.

  237. @Anatoly Karlin

    Hey, I’m a proud Russian nationalist, and while I would never call you “a Jew-loving neocon cockroach”, you do seem to be too soft on the Jewish Question:

    If you want Russia to take Iran’s place as the main enemy of the Jewish people, this is a good way to go about it.

    1. Russia is already there. You published charts showing US Russophobia is primarily a Jewish thing. A prominent Jewish pundit on Bloomberg news writes articles about how Russia is a “cancer”, a “termite”, eating away at the international community. When Trump cancelled Iran deal, the main argument I heard (from US pundits) why this is bad was that rising oil price helps Russia.

    2. There is no article in the Russian Constitution that says we must donate money to the Israelis. This was Putin’s dumb idea, and he can simply rescind it.

    Kristallnacht 2.0

    3. A classic strawman: there is a thousand ways that Russian bureaucracy can make your life unbearable, that stop short of an actual pogrom. I also find it funny how you didn’t even try to argue that Jewish businesses provide benefit to the community, do you agree with me on this point?

    • Replies: @Felix Keverich
  238. LondonBob says:
    @songbird

    That one third quote is bogus and relates to another issue, namely the French Revolution. The American War for Independence was successful because the vast majority supported it. New England almost uniformly, with a few places in the rest of the colonies having some loyalists.

    • Disagree: utu
    • Replies: @German_reader
    , @songbird
  239. LondonBob says:
    @Anon

    Perhaps you should wonder why that is the case, reputation matters.

  240. LondonBob says:
    @Talha

    Certainly a lot less bloodthirsty than is found in the OT, but then you have to judge by the time and place.

    • Replies: @Talha
  241. AaronB says:
    @Talha

    Right, the main thing is to overcome materialism. And Muslims can be highly useful in this fight.

    As you know, one of the reasons we are encouraged to hate Muslims is because you guys resist modernity.

    But I do not see why one cannot love ones own religion without hating another’s – and even seeing good in it.

    Just as you study us to avoid our mistakes, today, whites must study Muslims, Asians, and even Jews to find their way back to health. Just as whites taught technology to the rest of the world, they must now relearn spirituality from them.

    For instance, Hezbollah or Hamas has useful lessons about how to organize a strong community, and how charity and a financial net is an important element in this. It would be foolish to ignore such examples, and expecting whites to resist the establishment and lose their jobs, with no safety net backing them up, is unrealistic

    What is disturbing for me is to see white people fall into every trap set for them. Jews want whites and Muslims to fight, whites and blacks to fight – and whites fall right into the trap.

    I was once again with some Jewish friends last week, and they were saying how good it is that whites and Muslims are fighting in Europe.

    Whites seem only able to focus on proximate causes, not ultimate causes – Muslim rifraff causing problems in Europe, let’s attack Muslims. Don’t take a step back and see what are the larger forces at work. Same with blacks – blacks causing problems, attack them, don’t take a step back and see how Jews may be egging you on.

    The culprit of course is materialism. It makes you stupid. It trains you to focus on the immediate fact and ignore the larger picture or invisible connections. You deal only with the immediate, visible fact. In this way materialism literally makes you stupid.

  242. @Felix Keverich

    Concerning the JQ, check out this latest headline from the Jewish New York Times:

    What really bothers me is that ordinary Russians are completely unaware of how much the Jews hate them. Propaganda is needed to rectify this.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  243. Gabriel M says:
    @Talha

    Let’s review:

    1) ‘Three killed in shooting’ = not the worst way of spinning it perhaps, but obviously an attempt to downplay the nature and seriousness of the incident.

    2) “3 Palestinians killed as daily violence grinds on.” (CBS). Reporting Palestinians being killed in the process of attemting to murder Israelis’ as ’3 Palestinians killed’ sure seems biased to me.

    3) ““4 Israelis, 2 Palestinians dead in Jerusalem: Same. The 2 Palestinians were killed in the act of successfully murdering Israelis. Where else in the entire world are terrorist attacks reported in this way?

    4) “Palestinian shot dead after fatal stabbing in Jerusalem; 2 Israeli victims also killed” Kind of seems an odd way of reporting it.

    5) “Jordan slams Israel after radical Jews visit Islamic holy site” . Now this really is disgusting. Yes it’s an Islamic holy site. The 3rd holiest site. One can quibble about the fact that it is never mentioned once in the Koran and the basis of its holiness is the the obviously silly claim that Mohammed flew their on a f**king magic horse. But fine it’s your holy site. Well it’s also some other people’s holy site too. Their most holy site and before they visit they are searched by Israeli police for prayer articles (in contravention of Israeli law which mandates freedom of religion). They are prevented from bringing water lest they say a blessing before drinking it. They are harangued by mobs of Arabs with EU-bought camera equipment trying to goad them into actions they can video and they are surrounded by armed police who will arrest them if they do anything that looks like it might be praying.
    Meanwhile, after two Palestinians burst out of the Temple Mount and murdered two (not Jewish, Druze) Israeli policeman, the Israelis put up metal detectors to stop Arabs bringing weapons into their ‘holy site’ you throw a s**t fit. https://www.jpost.com/Israel-News/Politics-And-Diplomacy/Israel-removes-Temple-Mount-metal-detectors-that-enraged-the-Muslim-world-500663

    But it’s we wh0 have a psychosis. Muslim moderate indeed.

    • Replies: @Talha
  244. utu says:
    @for-the-record

    Iraq wasn’t a mistake, it was a success for those like Bolton.

    Exactly: The goal was to destroy functioning state and turn it into Hobbesian chaos where ethnic and sectarian factions can be sicced at each of the for ever.

    http://www.unz.com/article/tracing-the-rush-to-war/?highlight=tier#comment-2291549
    Causes of wars in ME:

    3rd tier: the ostensive cause – weapons of mass destruction, bringing democracy, saving women and children. etc. This you can read in the MSM.

    2nd tier: hidden causes for those who think that they are more savvy – pipelines, oil, banking, gold, MIC profits, etc.

    1st tier: the mother of all causes – implementation of the Yinon and PNAC plans for the future of Israel which in first stage is to destabilize and destroy functioning semi-secular Arab/Muslim states by turning them in Hobbesian chaos where sectarian and ethnic faction can be made to fight each other.

  245. utu says:
    @inertial

    Estonia and Latvia get away with far worse things than Israel.

    Wow.

  246. @inertial

    As for getting away with stuff, in my opinion, among the white and relatively civilized places, Estonia and Latvia get away with far worse things than Israel.

    Ahem, I can see how the Baltic states can be criticized for some of their policies regarding minority rights (language, education etc.), but come on, do the Baltic states just have snipers gun down Russian demonstrators like Israel recently did? How many Russians have been killed in the Baltic states since 1991? Really a bit of a silly comparison imo.
    You may have a better case regarding Ukraine with its shelling of the eastern territories which must have caused quite a few civilian casualties.

    • Replies: @Felix Keverich
    , @Dmitry
    , @Mikel
  247. @LondonBob

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expulsion_of_the_Loyalists

    According to that an estimated 500 000 settlers were loyalists, and 60 000 left for Canada after the revolution.
    I don’t have time to look for anything more substantial than Wikipedia, but everything I’ve read about the American revolution indicates that there was a very significant minority of loyalists. Also many who were initially undecided.

    • Replies: @DFH
  248. @Talha

    [Me to you:] it appears that you live in the US of A.

    I do – I didn’t really have a choice in the matter since I was 6 when my father moved us here.

    That’s it. You are a complete fraud Talha, face it, because as I understand it, you are no longer a child and nothing is preventing you from leaving the world center of jewish power and degenerate secularism. All the rest of what you are writing is entirely irrelevant at that point. The “traditional muslim” who enjoys the good life in the good’Ole US of A. If at least you were posting from one of your favorite muzzie shitholes I would continue talking with you. But at that point, that’s over, good American boy, I am done with you and feel sorry that I wasted so much of my time with a wanabee “scholar of islam” whose president is The Donald.

    Have a good day in the land of Hollywood and Walmart!

    • Replies: @Talha
  249. @German_reader

    Last time I checked Arabic is the official language in Israel. I think that’s what he meant.

    The Balts are waging an open war against the Russian culture, trying to create a monoethnic society. The only reason you don’t see violence in Latvia and Estonia is that unlike the Arabs, Russian minority has been extraordinary docile. The Balts have certainly done enough to warrant a campaign of terrorism against them.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
  250. Talha says:
    @LondonBob

    Indeed, context is important. That was the bloodiest episode in the Sirah; a few dozen to a few hundred (sources vary on details) captive adult prisoners were executed for siding with the enemy when the city of Madinah was under siege by a large confederation army under the Quraysh – that could not go unanswered and Bani Qurayzah effectively ceased to exist. Or Jewish tribes did nothing this egregious and were allowed to go into exile or surrender with terms of providing a yearly tribute.

    Executing adult male prisoners of war was fairly wide practice at the time. Charlemagne had 4500 recalcitrant heathens put to the sword at Verden for killing some of his officials. He went on to become Holy Roman Emperor and his statues are everywhere.

    Now we have rules not to do that and everyone should abide by them. However, judging the past by post WW2 protocols seems a silly policy.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @Talha
  251. @Felix Keverich

    The Balts have certainly done enough to warrant a campaign of terrorism against them.

    No.

    The Balts are waging an open war against the Russian culture, trying to create a monoethnic society.

    One can hardly blame them after getting a very large and mostly hostile Russian settler population. They could easily have gone home in 1991, or learned the language and gotten citizenship.

    By the way something similar (creating a monoethnic society) is attempted at times in places like Slovakia and Romania. I have yet to meet a Hungarian who explicitly says that it warrants a terrorist campaign against these countries.

    • Replies: @Felix Keverich
  252. Talha says:
    @French Basque

    nothing is preventing you from leaving the world center of jewish power and degenerate secularism

    Indeed, but who says we’re ones to run from a good challenge. My spiritual teachers have taught me; the only legitimate reason to be residing in a non-Muslim land is to spread the religion. Material happiness is not good enough due to the spiritual risks involved (as can be seen by the numbers of Muslims getting involved in the drinking, drugs, rapes, etc. that you point out).

    I’m here doing my part and I’m here until my teachers fold up shop and leave or advise me to.

    We’ve established a spiritual beachhead. My wife is a convert (and is two years away from her certification as a scholar in the Hanafi school – alhamdulillah), her sister is also a convert.

    So we’re going to do our thing and call to our way while people like you have fun distracting yourselves with your gadgets. Go through the legal means to kick us out (I literally outlined a game plan) or outbreed us. Do something; but for sure, don’t waste your time with me on the internet, because you’re working against the clock here.

    For the record; I’m not a scholar, I just learn under them.

    • Replies: @for-the-record
  253. Talha says:
    @Talha

    Should be “Other Jewish tribes…”

  254. Talha says:
    @Gabriel M

    When have I ever supported Palestinian attacks on random civilians, please point it out. By all means, call out the MSM to correct headlines as you see fit.

    Also get out of the West Bank and remove all your settlers while you’re at it. It’ll show us you are sincere in the matter of wanting an end to the violence.

    Peace.

  255. @reiner Tor

    The territory you’re talking about has been a part of Russian empire for 2 centuries. The states of Estonia and Latvia are fairly recent inventions, and a lot of Russians, including me as well, have difficulty taking them seriously. The Balts themselves have a tremendous amount of insecurity on top of huge inferiority complex, and I suspect this is where their campaign against the Russian language comes from. They cannot hope to compete against the superior Russian culture, so they are trying to suppress it.

    PS: I find it hillarious when you try to compare Hungary and Russia. It’s so cute.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    , @Thorfinnsson
  256. songbird says:
    @LondonBob

    The source, of course, is John Adams.

    I never realized there was a debate about what he was talking about. The third business is in school in textbooks. Of course, he was in France for a time, so it is possible he may have been commenting on the French Revolution. I always got the impression – independent of the quote – that there were a fair number of loyalists. Ben Franklin had a son that he treated infamously badly because he was a loyalist. Most of the population of the colonies had to be British.

  257. DFH says:
    @German_reader

    About 20% in total were loyalists, but they were only really in the majority in the counties immediately surrounding New York and perhaps some backwoods areas.

    • Replies: @German_reader
    , @AP
  258. @DFH

    I thought there were quite a few in the South as well, iirc British strategy in the later stages of the war concentrated on the southern colonies because it was thought there were many loyalists there.
    Obviously they lost out in the end though.

    • Replies: @Anon
    , @Thorfinnsson
  259. @Felix Keverich

    You didn’t address my point about Russian settlers, mostly from the 1960s to the 1980s.

    I find it hillarious when you try to compare Hungary and Russia. It’s so cute.

    You started by comparing Russians to Israeli Arabs.

    • Replies: @Felix Keverich
    , @Dmitry
  260. Dmitry says:
    @Felix Keverich

    New York Times is anti-Israel oriented newspaper in English, so I don’t see a good match to relations to Israel. They put Russia and Israel in a similar ‘bad’ category. The difference is that at least Israel has supporters to publicize on giant posters in New York.

    http://www.camera.org/nytimes

    -

    There is some asymmetry between Russia attitude to Israel, and Israel attitude to Russia.

    Public in Russia is a lot more friendly to Israel, than public in Israel is to Russia.

    http://newsru.co.il/israel/05jun2011/drug_vrag_104.html

    Although in the survey, Russia is one of the highest for ‘which country is necessary to strengthen relations’.

    http://newsru.co.il/info/bigpoll/drug_vrag.html

    -

    In Israel you can often see Russian flags on buildings and hanging out of peoples’ windows. I have photos of them on my phone from walking around. Also you see Ukraine and America flags people put on their balconies and cars. But not flags of other countries.

    Strangers in Israel are usually happy when they find you are Russian, and it is a place where Russia has prestige in some dimensions, unlike in the West. Especially the military. An brown old (native Israeli) woman in the pancake shop, told us when she was serving us – ‘Russia has the best soldiers’ (“hachayalim haky tovim” Hebrew)

    The place in Israel where you can get discrimination for the Russian passport, is at the passport control.

    So I would say there is a mixed situation with Russia and Israel.

    -
    As for American Jews. In my life, I don’t think I had a conversation ever with any American Jews outside the internet.

    But I talked on the facebook groups a little with Russian-speaking Americans (they seem mainly Jewish). My experience is they think Russia is still ‘total shithole’ and ‘prison camp’, that they have escaped. But apart from that they have no interest in Russia politics and don’t respond. It doesn’t seem a demographic that cares or is interested in Russia. They seem right-wing and kind of rednecks , exchangeable with people on the Sailer forum – they love Trump and (ironically) hate immigrants.

    The people inventing or believing Russia conspiracy theories are people who think Russia is some powerful country, with a competent government that has power over world events. It’s also possible they don’t believe Russia actually has this power, but it is politically useful to say it.

    • Replies: @for-the-record
    , @Mikhail
  261. Sean says:
    @German_reader

    If Russia wants lead a global energy order, siding with Iran against the de facto Sunni power block that includes the oil rich Gulf states would seem to be of dubious utility. Russia owes Iran nothin. and is is hurting the energy prices.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    , @LondonBob
  262. Dmitry says:
    @German_reader

    Ahem, I can see how the Baltic states can be criticized for some of their policies regarding minority rights (language, education etc.), but come on, do the Baltic states just have snipers gun down Russian demonstrators like Israel recently did? How many Russians have been killed in the Baltic states since 1991? Really a bit of a silly comparison imo.
    You may have a better case regarding Ukraine with its shelling of the eastern territories which must have caused quite a few civilian casualties.

    Comparing the situation of Russians in Lithuania and Latvia (well-behaved, following all laws, and peaceful people that would like to be ordinary citizens), to the population which is in a civil war, and was producing weekly suicide bombers who killed groups of teenagers outside discos for the political/religious conflict, and despite this enjoys full citizenship and language. Or as last month, the people who were inside a separate territory (given to them in 2005) and which is trying to cross over, as part of a war, over the side of the border. It seems to me a crazy comparison and indication of taking too seriously materials of the Unz website.

    • Replies: @for-the-record
  263. @Talha

    the only legitimate reason to be residing in a non-Muslim land is to spread the religion

    So have you been successful? How many people have you converted, apart from your wife? Or does “spreading the religion” seeming mean having lots of offspring?

    • Replies: @Talha
  264. Dmitry says:
    @Sean

    Sure Russia benefits from higher oil prices. But there is a problem in prices moving too rapidly upwards (which will also result in over-correction), in an unstable way.

    The desirable situation will be stable prices at a medium-high range, similar to now – not much higher. It may be seen that removing oil off the market is desirable to maintain this soon though, with things like US oil supply increasing. If production or exports from competitor countries like Iran were moderately reduced by sanctions, it could be a positive result in my opinion (but I am no expert on oil markets).

  265. Comparing the situation Russians in Lithuania and Latvia (good and peaceful citizens that would like to be ordinary citizens)

    You’re leaving out the historical context, which is the Soviet Union annexing the Baltic states in 1940, carrying out massive terror against the native population and intentionally using settlement of Russians as a means to keep any stirrings for independence suppressed. You may think that historical background shouldn’t matter, but obviously Balts disagree, and tbh given the sentiments displayed by Russian nationalists like Felix Keverich they’re probably right to do so.
    And it wasn’t me who compared Russians in the Baltic states with Palestinians, let alone Palestinian suicide bombers. But nor do I think the Baltic states can be said to be “worse than Israel”. I understand you think Israel is too liberal (and by the standards of its neighboorhood maybe it is), but still, Israel regularly reacts to Palestinian attacks with much bigger (some might say disproportionate) force. Just in the airstrikes on Gaza in 2014 they killed hundreds, if not thousands of Palestinian civilians. It’s absurd to claim anything what the Baltic states are doing is even remotely on the same level.

    • Agree: reiner Tor
  266. @Dmitry

    New York Times is anti-Israel oriented newspaper in English

    This may be your perception, but most people — other than Benjamin Netanyahu and the Simon Wiesenthal Center — have a markedly different view. Also keep in mind that the ownership and editorial policy has been controlled by the (essentially Jewish) Ochs-Sulzberger family since 1896.

    A 2003 study in The Harvard International Journal of Press/Politics concluded that The New York Times reporting was more favorable to Israelis than to Palestinians.[211] A 2002 study published in the journal Journalism examined Middle East coverage of the Second Intifada over a one-month period in the Times, Washington Post and Chicago Tribune. The study authors said that the Times was “the most slanted in a pro-Israeli direction” with a bias “reflected … in its use of headlines, photographs, graphics, sourcing practices and lead paragraphs.”[212]

  267. @Dmitry

    Or as last month, the people who were inside a separate territory (given to them in 2005) and which is trying to cross over, as part of a war, over the side of the border

    This wonderful territory that Gazans have been given which they are not allowed to leave, as they are essentially under a land, aerial and naval blockade. And in which more than 250 children in (largely) peaceful protests have been shot by Israelis with live ammunition since March.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  268. Dmitry says:
    @melanf

    Just to add to this comment.

    Of course, Islamic culture is not necessarily following human nature.

    Because religious restrictions are usually anti-natural, and very specific to time and place where they were invented, designed to achieve specific societal engineering. The idea that inventions specific to particular cultures, like the creation of Islamic culture by Mohammad, are in common with universal view – well it is evidence of people not attending history lessons at school.

    Islamic law is suitable for the structure of society in the time and place it was invented. Women were often taken from other tribes, or as a kind of property and as a result of war. Probably modesty was seen as a practical way of reducing conflict. In this context, it was probably a very clever idea.

    Other societies, with different kinds of organization and regulation – then the Islamic modesty law might not be logical at all.

    In Okinawa, in Japan, for thousands of years women dived topless for pearls. In this culture, it would be pretty crazy to tell women to wear hijab.

    • Agree: Johann Ricke
  269. @reiner Tor

    You didn’t address my point about Russian settlers, mostly from the 1960s to the 1980s.

    The Soviet Republics of Latvia and Estonia were parts of the Soviet Union, and “settling” there was not a crime. No immigration laws were broken by these Russians, and many of them were long-term residents at the time of the Soviet break-up, so it was unfair to expect them to “return home”. The Balts should be grateful for independence they didn’t have to fight for, and not try to recreate demographic balance that existed in 1939 – that’s just nuts.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
  270. @German_reader

    The charge leveled at the first Bush administration in 1991 was that the invasion of Iraq and the First Gulf War was all about oil and that the US didn’t give a shit about non-white/European people or even people. Which is largely true.

    To counter these feelings, the Bush administration towards the very end of its existence launched the invasion of Somalia to facilitate the UN’s mission of distributing aid to combat a famine which was largely over.

    The American public quickly lost interest in this foray until the Black Hawk Down incident put it back on the front page. These were the pre-internet days when any and all discussion took place on CNN or in the pages of the Nation, the New Republic, The New York Times, or Foreign Affairs.

    This was also the start of the Clinton years. Bill Clinton ran on a platform of partially promising to get involved in Bosnia to stop the Serbian genocide of Muslims.
    Troops-on-the actually became President he lost enthusiasm for getting involved in what appeared to be a very complicated situation and faced a lot of pressure to avoid getting involved in a quagmire. Air power had gained credibility from the First Gulf War. Troops-on-the-ground became problematic because of Somalia.

    It took a couple of years for the Clinton administration to do what it did in Bosnia.

  271. Dmitry says:
    @for-the-record

    This may be your perception, but most people — other than Benjamin Netanyahu and the Simon Wiesenthal Center — have a markedly different view.

    Then why do they have to issue a correction every couple of weeks. And always in the same direction?

    Also keep in mind that the ownership and editorial policy has been controlled by the (essentially Jewish) Ochs-Sulzberger family since 1896.

    But American Jews, and attitude to Israel, are not always matching or can be directly correlated (although there will be a general correlation with more pro-Israel attitudes).

    This is the case with yourself I believe. You said you are Jewish who follows Christianity.

    The owner of New York Times has the same origin as yourself.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Ochs_Sulzberger_Jr.#Early_life

    But you are saying they are not anti-Israel because of his national origin?

    So surely this rule applied to New York Times, also applies to yourself?

    My view of New York Times as having anti-Israel bias, is from matching original stories, to the way the story is re-written in New York Times.

    The way they write stories with Russia is similar.

    The newspaper has some countries they don’t like, it’s very easy to notice from the way the articles are written.

    They have other countries they love (especially Sweden I think is their favourite country now).

  272. @German_reader

    You’re leaving out the historical context, which is the Soviet Union annexing the Baltic states in 1940, carrying out massive terror against the native population and intentionally using settlement of Russians as a means to keep any stirrings for independence suppressed.

    This is laughable, Soviet Union was never as devious as that. If the goal was to end Baltic separatism, they would all be deported to Kazakhstan. Instead, USSR invested resources promoting local languages and culture…

    There was never any sign of separatism in the Baltic republics right until the moment USSR dissolved, at which point the natives suddenly discovered their pride, and began a campaign of revenge against their Russian minorities.

    • Replies: @German_reader
  273. @Felix Keverich

    If the goal was to end Baltic separatism, they would all be deported to Kazakhstan

    Well, in the 1940s a lot of Balts were deported. I admit I don’t know that much about policies in the last decades of the Soviet Union, but many Balts certainly felt there was a deliberate effort to swamp them in their own countries with Russian settlers loyal to the Soviet project.
    Anyway, I’m not that invested in the topic…just find it irritating how obsessed many Russian nationalists seem to be with the Baltic states. Can’t you focus your ire on more deserving targets like Chechens?

  274. Dmitry says:
    @reiner Tor

    You didn’t address my point about Russian settlers, mostly from the 1960s to the 1980s.

    They are not “settlers”. This was all the same country until April 1990 (Lithuania created) and August 1991 (Latvia created). I have to go out now, but would write some more later.

  275. This was all the same country until April 1990 (Lithuania) and August 1991 (Latvia).

    As a result of an annexation by the Soviet Union which was accompanied by massive terror aimed at national elites (and which was never recognized by the western powers). And of course the Russians who came there during the Soviet era can be considered as “settlers”, it’s the same process as with Chinese in Tibet or Xianjiang. Shouldn’t be that hard to understand.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  276. @Johnny Rico

    I know, I’ve just read Andrew Bacevich’s book about America’s Mideast wars (can be pirated on the useful lib.gen site AK linked to in his piracy post), which also deals with Somalia and the Balkan wars. Good book, I recommend it. Bit depressing though, given the picture of unending incompetence and delusion it paints.

    • Replies: @Johnny Rico
  277. LondonBob says:
    @Sean

    Iran and Iraq aren’t oil rich?

  278. Mikel says:
    @German_reader

    You may have a better case regarding Ukraine with its shelling of the eastern territories which must have caused quite a few civilian casualties.

    Yes, he does have a very good case with the Ukrainian example. Since 2014 Ukraine has killed more of its own civilians in Donbass than Israel has killed Palestinians in that same time period.

    The UN Office for Human Rights (OHCHR), hardly a pro-Russian source, estimated a couple of years ago that at least 2,400 civilians have died since the start of the conflict in Donbass and around 400 are unaccounted for and possibly killed. While the rebels have done their own share of indiscriminate shelling, most of these civilians were killed during the Ukrainian recovery of lost territory, which included actions normally typified as war crimes, such as aerial bombardment of civilian areas.

    One of the saddest aspects of these largely unreported atrocities is that it is very hard to imagine the Ukrainians doing this if Western support would have been clearly conditional on not shelling civilian areas. In other words, we (EU-US) hold a good part of the blame for these killings.

    In a way, the Ukrainians are lucky to be fighting Russians and pro-Russians because that is giving them a carte blanche that no other European nation would enjoy under similar circumstances. Compare our turning a blind eye to Ukrainian actions in Donbass with the (justified) outrage provoked by the Spanish police brutality during the Catalan referendum which nevertheless didn’t produce any serious injuries. Spaniards haven’t stopped talking about the need to improve their exterior image since then.

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    , @PP
    , @Mikhail
    , @AP
  279. @Johnny Rico

    Sorry, …

    …This was also the start of the Clinton years. Bill Clinton ran on a platform of partially promising to get involved in Bosnia to stop the Serbian genocide of Muslims.

    When Clinton actually became President he lost enthusiasm for getting involved in what appeared to be a very complicated situation and faced a lot of pressure to avoid getting involved in a quagmire. Vietnam came up a lot. Air power had gained credibility from the First Gulf War. Troops-on-the-ground became problematic because of Somalia.

    It took a couple of years for the Clinton administration to do what it did in Bosnia.

    I always had the impression that the ones most sympathetic to the Bosnians were western multiculti types who regarded Bosnians as the new Jews or something of the sort and the Serbs as Nazis.

    Yes and no. There was as much support for intervening in Bosnia from the Republican/Neocon right as from the Democrat/liberal/interventionist left. And as much opposition from either side as well.

    As far as the Arab “street” goes, that covers a lot of countries and a big area. I don’t remember it as being hysterical or even noticeable. I could be wrong. Historically, at least prior to 1995, the Arab street has had little power and influence on anything above a local level. It says what the Imams tell it to say and with the permission of the local dictator. And usually it is about Israel or the Great Satan.

    When the Great Satan and Israel support the Bosnian Muslims things become tricky. Peoples heads tend to explode thinking of the complications.

  280. @German_reader

    Outstanding book. All his others, as well.

    I highly recommend ‘Washington Rules.’

    I’ve met Bacevich a couple of times. Twice on public transportation around Boston. The guy should be President. He’d be my choice for Secretary of State.

  281. @Dmitry

    It depends what you mean by “anti Israel”.

    Anti Israel can mean a variety of things:

    1. Outright supporting the destruction of Israel
    2. The founding of Israel was morally illegitimate but that destroying it isn’t practical so instead advocating for a political solution that is favorable to the Arabs
    3. The founding of Israel, while not necessarily morally illegitimate per se, was not important enough to be worth all the trouble of the Israeli-Arab conflict; but that the clock can’t turned back so instead advocating for a political solution that is favorable to the Arabs
    4. The founding of Israel was morally necessary but that Israel from it’s inception has violated the legitimate rights of the Palestinians and that it is the violation of said Palestinian rights that continues to drive the conflict today

    All 4 groups would be considered as anti Israel by most pro Israel people. The NYT set and many establishment type American liberals are all category 4. Most Europeans are probably category 2 and 3 (my own mother is a category 3, by the way). Type 1s are mostly confined to the internet and fringe political parties (and the Arab-Islamic world, obviously).

    What frustrates pro Israel people about groups 2, 3 and 4 is that they seem to genuinely not understand that over 90% of the Palestinians really will never accept anything less than the complete destruction of Israel. They also don’t understand how hard it is to fight terrorism without killing and inconveniencing civilians and that the Palestinian terror groups deliberately try to ensure that the IDF kills more Palestinian civilians than it otherwise would.

    However, the 2014 Gaza war showed the IDF brass is losing control over it’s increasingly radicalized junior officer corps. 40% of IDF combat junior officers are religious and have rabbis who have taught them, in so many words, to kill as many Palestinian civilians as possible. On top of this, the IDF itself has seemed to realize that killing Palestinian civilians is the best deterrent available. So slowly the IDF is turning into the type of army that it has always been accused of being. We still have a long way to go, but we’ll get there eventually.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
  282. @Dmitry

    You said you are Jewish who follows Christianity.

    1. I am (ethnically) half Jewish, through my father, so I imagine that the Jews wouldn’t claim me.

    2. I certainly never said that I “follow Christianity”, as I was brought up non-religious and have yet to see the light (AaronB notwithstanding). You are perhaps confused by the fact that I have done some work for a Christian charitable organisation in the Holy Land.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  283. @Felix Keverich

    In the context of the propiska system no one could just move there. They were deliberately settled there by the Soviet government to dilute the Baltic ethnic majorities.

    Yes the Russians settled there didn’t break any laws, but neither did the tens of thousands of Estonians who were deported to penal colonies or the gulag. The “penalty” that these Russians received was that they had to live there as legal aliens (unless they learned Estonian, in which case they could apply for citizenship), enjoying slightly higher living standards than Russians in Russia.

    I’m unsure where you get your information about the lack of separatism among Balts, but I can assure you it’s wrong. The Forest Brothers guerrilla movement was strong for a long time despite the unsuitability of the terrain. (Before that, in the first days of Operation Barbarossa, a whole corps of the Red Army, organized from the former Baltic armies, deserted and joined the Germans en mass.) Then of course it was precisely here that the first openly separatist movements were formed after perestroika started. It would be surprising if it wasn’t the case, given their history.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propiska_in_the_Soviet_Union?wprov=sfti1

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forest_Brothers?wprov=sfti1

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singing_Revolution?wprov=sfti1

    The Balts should be grateful for independence they didn’t have to fight for,

    Yeah, grateful that the Russians were incompetent enough to let their empire disintegrate.

    If I were an anti-Russian propagandist, I’d just distribute your comments across Central Europe and the Baltic states.

    • Replies: @byrresheim
    , @Thorfinnsson
  284. Dmitry says:
    @for-the-record

    Ok sorry I may have confused the users – Greasy, AaronB and you all seem to have the same heritage. I know your views are very different of course.

    But your background is also almost identical as the owner of the New York Times, according to the Wikipedia biography of this man.

    At the same time, you say that the New York Times matches Israel because of this background.

    So according to this logic, you would also match Israel? But you do not and definitely New York Times does not (I read and appreciate this newspaper, but Israel is one of the countries they clearly do not like, and always have an angry words for). Your views on Israel seem similar as the New York Times view on Israel. That is also fine. But claiming that New York Times matches Israel (like Felix did) – it is as logical as claiming that you match Israel because of your background.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    , @Anon
  285. @Dmitry

    As far as I know, most NYT journalists covering Israel have sons who served in the IDF, despite being Americans. So at least the journalists seem to be identifying with Israel.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  286. Dmitry says:
    @German_reader

    Sure I do not deny that Latvia and Lithuania became separate countries, and had been separate in the past. And even, they deserve to be separate now.

    But the Russians in Latvia and Lithuania are not ‘settlers’. It was the same country. They lived there, not to ‘settle’ another country, but because it was the same country at the time.

    Currently, they are even friendly patriots of the respective countries (Latvia and Lithuania). They are in no threat or hostility to the countries. They want normal legal rights (including citizenship) and normal (EU obligated) promise of respect to native languages.

  287. @Greasy William

    I don’t care that much about Israel, but since Russian nationalists, despite Russia being the largest country in the world, seem incapable of just letting go such a small area as that of the Baltic states, I can hardly blame the expansionism of the Israelis with their tiny little country.

    • Replies: @Greasy William
  288. A quick search resulted in this:

    According to The Jewish Journal of Greater Los Angeles, in a September 2014 interview with the Israeli newspaper Haaretz, Brooks said that his oldest son serves in the Israel Defense Forces.[97]

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Brooks_(commentator)?wprov=sfti1

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  289. @Dmitry

    But the Russians in Latvia and Lithuania are not ‘settlers’. It was the same country. They lived there, not to ‘settle’ another country, but because it was the same country at the time.

    Man, you can’t possibly be that obtuse, can you? Both reiner tor and I have explained several times that a) the Baltic states were annexed by the Soviet Union in 1940, in a violent manner accompanied by mass terror which, apart from the German occupation, lasted pretty much until Stalin’s death, b) most Balts never wanted to be part of the Soviet Union, c) the Soviets deliberately changed the ethnic composition of the population there, to cement their role and suppress Baltic national sentiment. How is that hard to understand?
    Seriously, I generally like and appreciate your comments, but regarding groups/countries you like/identify with (Russia and Israel) you have a lot of blind spots.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  290. @Talha

    That murder is all you need to know about the Israeli right wing.

    The horror.

  291. David Brooks at least has a son who served in the IDF:

    https://www.haaretz.com/life/books/.premium-gaza-war-showed-my-son-was-right-to-join-idf-1.5315633

    I guess the New York Times might be biased against Netanyahu and other Israeli right-wingers…but do you imagine that this is different from how they’re reporting about Orban, the Polish government or right-wingers in Germany? I doubt it suffices to claim the NYT is “anti-Israel”.

    EDIT: Oops, reiner to beat me to it…sorry!

  292. @reiner Tor

    You don’t care about Israel even after all the discussions we’ve had on this board about it?

    I started off not caring about Russia at all, but after being here for years I’ve gotten increasingly interested in it. Although I will admit that my interests in Russia is almost exclusively in Russian economics and politics; I don’t have anything against Russian culture but I’m not interested in it either.

    Ok sorry I may have confused the users – Greasy, AaronB and you all seem to have the same heritage.

    I have a Jewish mother! I am part of the Jewish People. AaronB and for-the-record are goys.

    Nothing wrong with being a goy but don’t say that I have the same heritage as those two. We do not have the same heritage at all.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
  293. @Dmitry

    Moscow was also the same country, but people couldn’t just move there. There was the propiska system. The Russians were settled there deliberately by the Soviet government to dilute the ethnic majorities of these countries. Why should they accept it?

    I don’t know about Latvia, but in Estonia the only requirement for longtime residents to acquire citizenship was learning the language. Those Russians who were interested in it already got it.

  294. Dmitry says:
    @reiner Tor

    As far as I know, most NYT journalists covering Israel have sons who served in the IDF, despite being Americans. So at least the journalists seem to be identifying with Israel.

    Reliable sources please.

    This would be strange, considering the angry way the news articles are written on the topic, and the bias which is added to coverage of this topic (hostile or one-sided tone and words on Israel, not contained in neutral coverage of other newspapers).

    -
    Offtopic,
    Despite its different bias, I still find New York Times is the best newspaper to read (aside from the cookies issue) due its interesting vocabulary.

    • Replies: @for-the-record
  295. @reiner Tor

    The absolute lack of historical knowledge beyond their role as victims of the vile Nazis and victors in a war they fought on behalf of the British Empire and the US – even if Stalin made the very best out of a bad hand – among Russians is shocking.

    Where it gets annoying is when they start complaining about inexplicably not being loved by eastern Europeans, starting with russian-speaking Ukrainians, not to ending with Poles.

    Do not get me wrong: contrary to many others I think Russia played a more than beneficial and heroic role in Syria.

    Russia saved Christendom in Syria, at least for the time being.

    That is more than one could ask for, and I am sure there will be a reward for this deed, if heroic good deeds are to be rewarded at all. The moral bankruptcy of the West compared to Russia cannot be shown more clearly than in the West’s support for moderate cutthroats in Syria.

    Perhaps it is for the best that President Putin tries not to provoke the mad bullies in Syria. We do not know where those 2-400 Israeli H-Bombs really are.

  296. Dmitry says:
    @German_reader

    Man, you can’t possibly be that obtuse, can you? Both reiner tor and I have explained several times that a) the Baltic states were annexed by the Soviet Union in 1940, in a violent manner accompanied by mass terror which, apart from the German occupation, lasted pretty much until Stalin’s death, b) most Balts never wanted to be part of the Soviet Union, c) the Soviets deliberately changed the ethnic composition of the population there, to cement their role and suppress Baltic national sentiment. How is that hard to understand?
    Seriously, I generally like and appreciate your comments, but regarding groups/countries you like/identify with (Russia and Israel) you have a lot of blind spots.

    There’s no denial that they were separate countries at different stages in the past, and are separate now. And even that they deserve to be separate countries now (they do). But regardless of fair or not – they were not separate countries then, and neither internal migrants in different parts of the Soviet Union, to be called ‘settlers’.

    And neither now, when they are marching through the streets waving Latvian or Lithuanian flags, many willing to be patriots, and simply want a bilingual education for their children.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    , @Thorfinnsson
  297. @Greasy William

    I’m not obsessed about Israel. I don’t want it destroyed for a number of reasons, but I don’t care that much about its internal politics or similar issues. I wish they stopped their warmongering against Syria and Iran, and stopped bombing Syria, though the latter I find only of marginal interest so far, since it doesn’t matter to the outcome of the civil war or the Russia-America superpower balance.

    • Agree: German_reader
  298. Talha says:
    @for-the-record

    A man must know his place and not be delusional in letting his ego convince him otherwise. I said we have established a spiritual beachhead, not that I was “tip of the spear”. I’m more what you consider logistics and supply side; others do the heavy lifting on the spreading religion front. People like me help facilitate their work.

    As far as my teachers, yes; plenty have become Muslim at their hands and even more wayward Muslims have repented and reformed their lives under their guidance.

    Peace.

  299. Dmitry says:
    @reiner Tor

    The issue is not with the ‘intellectuals’ who are writing their opinions. Thomas Friedman or David Brookes .

    It’s with the news coverage, where they re-write a story to present their own bias and anger (at certain countries they have decided to place in the ‘bad’ category). This is where they ‘take down’ Israel (because I sometimes read the original story and then the re-write, which completely reverses the original story).

    To understand how it is achieved, see the funny emphasis in what Felix has posted above in the topic, of the Chechen terrorist as being Russian. This is how it works at the New York Times. It’s how NGOs are getting weekly corrections from them. But from e.g. TASS you would very unusually be able to get corrections.

  300. @Dmitry

    they are marching through the streets waving Latvian or Lithuanian flags, many willing to be patriots, and simply want a bilingual education for their children.

    In Lithuania they have citizenship, so it’s a question of internal political struggle like for Hungarians in Slovakia.

    In Latvia I think such patriotic people have already learned the language and applied for citizenship.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  301. @Dmitry

    Seriously, at least try to read up Bolshevik and Stalinist history.

    The coup in Ukraine, I am nearly convinced, not only succeeded because of Western manipulation, but also because of the complete lack of Russian awareness for the less than glorious episodes of their recent past.

    There is no need to imitate the present-day guilt-cult of Germans, certainly not, but there is no need to imitate 1950ies Western Germany, a country that had no embarrassing past at all, either.

    Above all, as you can see in Ukraine, Poland, the Baltic states: wanton ignorance of the past doesn’t really help, does it?

    • Replies: @German_reader
  302. @byrresheim

    but there is no need to imitate 1950ies Western Germany, a country that had no embarrassing past at all, either.

    Tangential to your point, but imo that’s not really true to the extent it’s often claimed, e.g. already in 1952 there was a reparations agreement with Israel:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reparations_Agreement_between_Israel_and_West_Germany

    I also know that my late mother (born in 1949) learned about the Nazi crimes already in school in the late 1950s/early 1960s, though admittedly that probably depended on individual teachers.

    • Replies: @PP
    , @reiner Tor
  303. PP says:
    @German_reader

    Do you think Germany could have won the war?

    • Replies: @German_reader
  304. @German_reader

    Even the Japanese have apologized multiple times.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_war_apology_statements_issued_by_Japan?wprov=sfti1

    Unfortunately I cannot find a similar comprehensive list of Russian apologies.

  305. Mikhail says: • Website
    @Mr. Hack

    No contradiction in what I expressed.

    “We” d0n’t know just how accurate that bit from Paul Roderiak Gregory is. Quite likely a matter of including some one time Russian army conscripts and other free lancers.

    There’s also the matter of Ukrainian army regulars going to the rebel side – something that Gregory isn’t as keen to delve into.

    Meantime, it seems pretty clear enough that the overwhelming majority of the Donbass rebels were born on the territory of the former Ukrainian, with another category having family links to that territory, as well as others with no such tie.

  306. Mikhail says: • Website
    @Dmitry

    The anti-Russian propaganda at The NYT is much greater than its criticism of Israel.

    Related:

    https://www.eurasiareview.com/09062016-enhanced-russia-bashing-at-the-new-york-times-analysis/

  307. Anon[198] • Disclaimer says:
    @Dmitry

    You are using the word “match” incorrectly; you should say something like “support” instead.

  308. Mikhail says: • Website
    @songbird

    We don’t know for sure if Israel would’ve occurred without Nazi actions that greatly popularized its creation.

    Just look at the number of displaced Jews after WW II.

    • Replies: @songbird
    , @reiner Tor
  309. Dmitry says:
    @reiner Tor

    Yes I was very confusing to wrap Lithuania into this thread. But problems in Latvia and Estonia are quite open. The record of Lithuania is not so bad at all.

    Anyway we discussed this whole topic a few weeks ago. Not sure there is so much we can add without personal discussion from people who live there.

    http://www.unz.com/akarlin/russians-in-20th-century-2/?highlight=estonia#comment-2298362

    • Replies: @for-the-record
  310. songbird says:
    @German_reader

    That is one history lesson that I wish a lot of idiotic people would internalize – Russia moved Russians into the Baltics in order to control the Baltics.

    I don’t say it to Russia-bash, or because they were the only people who ever did it – of course, there is a long list like that. But the Baltics is just one of the easiest examples to see and understand, partly because Russia is a big, powerful country, and some of the other historical examples seem very weak and therefore nonthreatening. Or they involve non-Europeans and therefore enter into an instant blindspot among SJWs.

    • Replies: @inertial
  311. @Dmitry

    Reliable sources please.

    Another New York Times’ reporter’s son is in the Israeli army

    Yet another reporter for the New York Times has a son in the Israeli Defense Forces. Isabel Kershner, a correspondent in the newspaper’s Jerusalem bureau, says that her son is in training in the army. This is the third time in recent years that a writer who covers the conflict for America’s leading newspaper has a son serving in an army that is regularly accused of human rights abuses. On each of those occasions, an outside publication has disclosed the army service . . .

    The Times has twice come under scrutiny in recent years when it was revealed that a writer’s son was in the IDF. In 2010 Electronic Intifada reported that the son of then-Jerusalem-bureau-chief Ethan Bronner, an American Jew, had entered the Israeli army. EI described Bronner’s son’s service as a conflict of interest the paper had failed to disclose per its own policy on reporters’ attachments . . .

    Then last summer, David Brooks, the conservative columnist for the Times, told Katie Couric that his son had joined the Israeli army during an interview at the Aspen Ideas Festival (video here at 52:00). Brooks is also an American Jew, but he spoke of himself in Haaretz‘s coverage of the matter as an Israeli parent . . .

    The children of Times Jerusalem bureau chief, Jodi Rudoren, are too young to go into the army, but Rudoren has stated that she first visited the country with a Zionist youth group and that she is “knowledgeable about the Jewish American or Jewish Israeli side of this beat.” She only seemed to enhance that resume when she said on Facebook that that Palestinians seem “ho-hum” about their relatives’ deaths or when she chatted with leading Israel lobbyist Abe Foxman about when “the Arabs” bought the Essex House in New York. And her husband made a cameo in an Israeli government film urging American Jews to immigrate to Israel.

    The Times has Jewish ownership, the Sulzberger family, which maintained a policy in the 1950s and 60s of only assigning non-Jewish reporters to Jerusalem lest the paper might appear to be exercising bias in favor of the Jewish state. That policy was reversed in the 1970s; and today some call that policy anti-Semitic. But the policy the Times replaced that one with seems to be fulfilling some of its early concerns.

    http://mondoweiss.net/2014/10/another-reporters-israeli/

    Sufficiently reliable?

    • Replies: @Mikhail
    , @Dmitry
  312. songbird says:
    @Mikhail

    We can only weakly speculate, of course, when it comes to such things, but I’m inclined to think it was a certainty after World War I, if not before. National ambitions were stoked by the creation of so many new countries. After that, I think technology had to advance somewhat, and the Jewish settler population had to increase beyond some threshold to make the actual creation of a state possible. WW2 undoubtedly accelerated the process. But I think the difference would only have been a decade or two at the most.

  313. @reiner Tor

    Unfortunately I cannot find a similar comprehensive list of Russian apologies.

    Russian or Soviet? Or would the Russian apology be for pre-1917, the Soviet for post-1917 (1940 in the case of the Baltics)?

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
  314. Mikhail says: • Website
    @for-the-record

    In reply to a piece that I submitted to The NYT years ago, one of its non-Jewish editors said that he was in quotes a “Slavic Orthodox Christian“, involved in pieces critical of Russia and Israel.

    I replied by saying that he was of a decaffeinated variant, adding that The NYT was far more critical of Russia than Israel. Maria Snegovaya comes to mind:

    https://www.strategic-culture.org/news/2017/10/11/slanting-against-russia-us-establishment-pastime.html

    http://www.eurasiareview.com/07112016-realists-on-russia-analysis/

    http://www.globalresearch.ca/twisted-history-against-russia-and-serbia/5390154

    Can’t always go by ethno-religious background. Wiki says that Ron Unz is of a Jewish background.

  315. @Dmitry

    The record of Lithuania is not so bad at all.

    Personal anecdote: I have a good Russian friend who grew up in Lithuania. When he got his Lithuanian passport he was forced to “Lithuanize” his name. His wife, who has more balls (so to speak), refused to change her name (or those of their children). He still goes by his Russian name, though it causes some confusion.

    • Replies: @Mikhail
    , @reiner Tor
  316. Mikhail says: • Website
    @for-the-record

    Was common between the two world wars and is evident in present day Latvia as well.

    In Lietuva, a name like Boyko can become Boykas. Bogomolov to Bogomolovas.

  317. Pavlo says:
    @reiner Tor

    There’s nothing to apologise for, and nothing to be gained by apologising since eastern europeans are primitives who interpret such behaviour as weakness.

    • LOL: Greasy William
    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    , @reiner Tor
  318. songbird says:
    @reiner Tor

    There is a rumor that Barack Obama wanted to apologize to Japan for the A-bomb, and Shinzo Abe told him it was a bad idea. If so, Abe was right.

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
  319. Aside from Anatoly, it seems like the Russian nationalists here don’t think very highly of their neighbors.

    I don’t think their attitudes are representative though. The Russians I have known in person aren’t racist against Eastern Euros (except Ukrainians).

  320. utu says:
    @reiner Tor

    As always there is a Jewish angle to everything:

    https://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Rampant-spread-of-Holocaust-distortion-545419
    In other words if Russia, which is legally the successor state to the Soviet Union, had followed Germany’s example in terms of acknowledgment of guilt, compensation, restitution and education for democracy, it’s quite possible we would not be facing the serious problem of Holocaust distortion in Eastern Europe today. Unfortunately, Russia did not do so, and the issue has reached worrying proportions throughout the region.

    Efrain Zuroff’s probably is a minority voice as Israel decided to embrace Russian narrative of the WWII which is symbolized by Red Army monument in Israel and recent Netanyahu presence during V-day in Moscow. It is possible that all what Putin is getting from Netanyahu is just a common historical policy.

  321. inertial says:
    @songbird

    That is one history lesson that I wish a lot of idiotic people would internalize – Russia moved Russians into the Baltics in order to control the Baltics.

    Russia moved Russians to Latvia and Estonia but not to Lithuania. Apparently that’s because Russia didn’t want to control Lithuania.

    …Speaking about history lessons internalized by idiotic people.

    • Replies: @songbird
  322. songbird says:
    @inertial

    Russians make up over 5% of the population of Lithuania. I wouldn’t call that nothing, and many of them were there originally for administrative purposes. But the Baltics is even extraneous to the example. Who inhabits Kaliningrad? Is it just ethnic Germans under the Russian flag? Obviously, not. They moved people there to control it politically.

    Don’t like Russia being the example? Okay – the English moved Scots into Northern Ireland to control it. And you know what? It’s still part of the UK. And it’s hard to find two peoples as closely related as the Catholics and Protestants in Northern Ireland.

    This silly modern day religion which has the mantra that people are completely interchangeable, and it is a sin to notice that they act as tribes needs to be demolished. There are people who think Sadiq Khan being mayor of London has no bearing at for the English – that he is English because he lives in England. And that is incredibly idiotic. People who don’t believe in borders are ignoring all of history. If that’s not idiocy, then I don’t know what is.

    • Replies: @utu
    , @inertial
  323. inertial says:
    @German_reader

    Sorry, but I am not impressed by the history lessons. We are comparing the Baltics to Israel, right? Well, Israeli nationalists consider Arabs to be illegal settlers who squat in the Jewish homeland. Just ask Greasy. (On the other hand, both Arabs and Baltic Russians consider themselves indigenes.)

    You are not buying into Israeli nationalist narrative but you are buying into the Baltic one. Which is one of the reasons the Balitcs can get away with so much more than Israel.

    As Felix mentioned, Baltic Russian population has been super docile. What if they are not? Have you thought about what would happen? Your friendly neocons have (an example.) Any kind of violent mass protests by the Russians will be declared, what else, “Putin’s provocation,” and crushed brutally. There will be zero condemnation or even coverage in the West. We have seen how it played out in the Ukraine. Except in the Baltic it will likely be the job of the NATO contingent, which is far too small to repel any real Russian invasion but perfect for cracking down on protests.

    • Replies: @German_reader
    , @LatW
  324. utu says:
    @songbird

    Russians make up over 5% of the population of Lithuania.

    It just happened that the other day I saw murder statistics for the Baltic states and Lithuanian was much lower than Latvian. Could it be related to the size of Russian population? In early 20 c. Slavic immigrants to the US had very low level of violence comparing to Italians and Irish. Why do Russia, Latvia and Estonia have such high murder rates comparing to Lithuania, Poland and other European countries?

    • Replies: @songbird
  325. Anon[198] • Disclaimer says:
    @German_reader

    Here in America the figures we were given in school were a little over 1/3 Patriot, a little under 1/3 Loyalist, and about 1/3 neutral.

    There were initially a fair number of Loyalists in the South but we were told that the British occupation caused public opinion to shift against them.

  326. songbird says:
    @utu

    An interesting question, but I am afraid I don’t really have any good insight into it.

    I wonder how much alcohol is/was involved in each case. For instance, do Russians drink more hard liquor (vodka vs. beer)? Maybe, this is something that increased in Soviet times because of supply issues, and has created a legacy. Somewhat muddling the issue is a lot of those Italians were probably Southern Europeans and seemingly more adapted to it, on a genetic level.

    On a tangent, I’ve wondered a lot about early ethnic gangs in the US. Of course, everyone knows about the Italians. But, of course, there were also Jewish and Irish gangs. I’ve wondered how all three compare to each other, and to more modern gangs in the US. I’ve never heard anyone try to make a scholarly comparison though.

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
  327. @Felix Keverich

    The Baltic states were ruled by the Baltic German nobility in the Russian Empire, who were given great autonomy. The Treaty of Nystad even allowed them the right of secession, which they in fact exercised in 1918.

    The ethnic Balts themselves were left unmolested by their German overlords provided they paid their feudal dues.

    The Baltic German nobility went on to play a very important role in the development of Russia, furnishing many important statesmen and military leaders. Right down to WWI when Rennenkampf got creamed by Hindenburg and Ludendorff

    Towards the end of the Empire Russia instituted its Russification policy, which understandably created resentment among both the Germans and Balts (not that I blame Russia for pursuing such a policy).

    The Balts are small and weak and thus not serious, but they’re clearly not Russian. This is a very different case from the Ukraine and Belarus, whose claims to not be Russian are very dubious indeed (especially Belarus, which would be like if Thuringia or whatever decided to pretend to be not German).

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  328. @German_reader

    Georgia in fact rejoined the British Empire during the Revolution.

    By the 1850s the Fire Eaters were preaching that the Revolution had been an error, though they were in for a rude awakening when they visited Britain during the Civil War and found the British to be completely pozzed (by 19th century standards) and fanatically opposed to slavery.

    The South continues to be the most Anglophilic part of America to this day.

  329. Mr. Hack says:
    @Thorfinnsson

    The Balts are small and weak and thus not serious, but they’re clearly not Russian. This is a very different case from the Ukraine and Belarus, whose claims to not be Russian are very dubious indeed (especially Belarus, which would be like if Thuringia or whatever decided to pretend to be not German).

    You clearly know a thing or two about German history and civilization, but it appears that you’re a couple of steps removed when writing about East Slavic civilization. You might find this research paper an eye openener:

    Eastern Slavs form two civilizations – Western-Ruthenian and Eurasian

    https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2048&context=ccr

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
  330. @Dmitry

    They have other countries they love (especially Sweden I think is their favourite country now).

    The American (and also in some European countries) “left” has long had an idiotic, slobbering love affair with the Nordic countries. Apparently the Nordic countries are paradises because they have lower gini coefficients (in income only–wealth inequality in Sweden is in fact equal to America) and “education” is “free”. Because nothing is more unimportant that CEOs only making ten times the wage of ordinary workers.

    Some people prefer Denmark to Sweden owing to the great alleged happiness in Denmark.

    Milton Friedman had a great rejoinder to equalicucks who worship Swedish social democracy.

    “In America, there is also no poverty among Swedes.”

    In fact we Swedish-Americans are about twice as prosperous as Swedes in Sweden. And we don’t have to pay a 25% VAT or a 56% top marginal income tax rate. And Moslems who try to rape or stab us get thirty year prison sentences. We also don’t get sent to prison for “hate”.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  331. @Mikel

    The Spanish police brutality during the Catalan referendum was fully justified. If anything they should’ve been more brutal.

    Catalan nationalism equivalent to Ukrainian nationalism. Gay fake petty nationalist FUCK YOU DAD bullshit loser nationalism. They want to be “independent” so they can become even gayer (quite difficult in Spain) and more degenerate. One of their talking points was even that an independent Catalonia could invite in more rapefugees.

    Spain and Russia are quite comparable here in that both lacked adequately sophisticated states in the 18th and 19th centuries and thus failed to extinguish these completely unnecessary pseudo-nationalities.

    • Replies: @AP
  332. @reiner Tor

    As a young intelligence officer my grandfather was tasked with providing intelligence to the Forest Brothers to help them in their struggle against the USSR.

  333. @Dmitry

    Put yourself in the shoes of Baltic peoples.

    Why would it be in their interests to grant full civil and political rights to ethnic Russians and undertake efforts to protect the Russian language?

    Obviously I also understand why Russians in the Baltics want these things.

    Point being Balts and Russians within Baltic countries have mutually opposed ethnic interests.

    One of the oddest things about humans is the inability of maybe 90-95% of people to understand things like this. Instead one’s own side is “right” and the other said is acting immorally or some other such nonsense like that.

    Of course AaronB would point out that’s just how we’re wired therefore we need religion so that we’re sure that pursuing our interests is in fact all part of God’s plan. And in fact I agree with AaronB, though I’m not wired that way.

  334. @Dmitry

    Bilingual education of an ethnic minority is necessarily opposed to the interests of the ethnic majority. The goal is to eliminate the identity of the ethnic minority. Something that America incidentally was once quite good at.

    Ron Unz started out his career in politics with this issue ffs.

    I mean perhaps we should return the Baltic Germans to the Baltic states and educate their children in German. I am sure the Balts would love that.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  335. @Pavlo

    “Never apologize. It’s a sign of weakness.” -John Wayne

    What has Germany’s apologies gotten it exactly?

    Apologizing to people who do not care about your best interests is weakness.

    Germany apologizing to France–maybe okay.

    Germany apologizing to the Jews–not okay.

    Think about your own life. Okay and even good to apologize to family and close friends if you have wronged them. But apologizing to random people? Yeah right, get bent losers.

  336. @songbird

    This would seem to vindicate the Tea Party talking point about Obama’s apology tour.

    What a loathsome creature.

    The nuking of Japan was the greatest triumph of American civilization. It’s been all downhill since then.

    Every year an amount of rainforest equivalent to the area of Japan is destroyed.

    Instead, Japan should be destroyed in a sea of atomic fire every year in a religious ritual to Make America Great Again.

  337. @songbird

    By the 1920s they in fact were all willing to cooperate, hence the association between Lucky Luciano and Meyer Lansky. The Italians came to predominate owing to their greater willingness to engage in violence, and being Mediterraneans they didn’t run into the problem of getting high on their own supply during Prohibition.

    Modern gangs in the US are deeply unimpressive compared to the Mafia during its glory days, circa 1921-1970.

  338. inertial says:
    @songbird

    That’s what I mean when I talk about swallowing the Balt nationalist narrative hook line and sinker – any number of ridiculous myths become gospel.

    The truth is that Soviet economic planners in their wisdom decided to make Estonia and Latvia into industrial powerhouses. So they sent Russian workers, engineers, managers in order to build ports, roads, railroads, pipelines, as well as various factories – cars, consumers electronics, and much more. The factories are gone now but the infrastructure is still there, for the most part. Estonians and Latvians are happily using it, while denigrating those who built it.

    By contrast, Lithuania was slated to remain mostly agricultural. I don’t know why, perhaps Moscow did not have a high opinion of Lithuanians. So few Russians were sent there. I think that at one point the majority of Lithuanian Russians were nuclear engineers at Ignalina Power Plant and their family members.

    • Agree: Dmitry
    • Replies: @reiner Tor
  339. Dmitry says:
    @for-the-record

    That website is not reliable. It’s the propaganda blog that is linked on this website. However, the anecdotes in could be true. But also irrelevant, as I can read the bias in New York Times for myself, in actual articles and what is removed from the original stories (which I also sometimes read).

    That’s why if all you read about the country was New York Times, you would develop a hostile attitude. (New York Times even worships and publishes articles of terrorists that murdered innocent people in Israel, and calls them ‘political prisoners’ – it’s bias level is on a different level to other media).

    But you missed – or refused to answer – my post though. Your national origin is the identical one as the owner of New York Times, as described in Wikipedia. You mentioned him as evidence of it as pro-Israel newspaper. Yet you yourself do not seem pro-Israel. (Actually your view reads the same as New York Times one). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Ochs_Sulzberger_Jr.#Early_life

    Which falls back to how the argument originally started with Felix. My argument with his claim, is the unreliability of matching national origins of people or newspapers in America to the nations themselves (particularly when they do not speak the language country of their ancestors). There is correlation in positive emotion in general (the American Jews are on average more pro-Israel). But this is correlation – not always clear correspondence on the individual level – many American Jews are like the New York Times owner, or yourself, or even in a way Greasy, and have the negative bias or lack of neutral reporting of Israel-Arab conflict.

    This is also the same in some cases of people of Russian origin in America. They can often be the most hostile and non-neutral people on discussing a subject, especially if they not speaking the language of their ancestor.

    Therefore I find it very difficult to match the argument originally.

    1. New York Times (which is the main anti-Israel newspaper in America), is anti-Russian. True.
    2. Owner of New York Times is half-Jew American (although with Christian identity). True.
    3. Israel is a country of Jews. True.

    Qed. Israel is anti-Russia?

    I stop being persuaded about half-way in number 1. Imagine how bad an intelligence officer’s information would be, if they use these methods to find attitudes inside a country.

  340. Dmitry says:
    @Thorfinnsson

    Perhaps, for some politicians, a goal is to eliminate the identity of Russians in these countries (perhaps). The goal of Russian-speakers, is not this – it is simply to allow their children to speak their language. Maybe you can say ‘who cares?’ Because, for example, immigrants’s children should not have bilingual education. But this goes back to the posts above – these people are not ‘immigrants’ or ‘settlers’. They are living in their home country, from the time when this was all the same country.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    , @Thorfinnsson
  341. @inertial

    I don’t know why

    The Lithuanian first secretary was becoming somewhat nationalistic after Moscow tried to force him to persecute his own Lithuanian comrades. He resisted the Russification of his country, unlike the first secretaries of the other two republics.

    During the later decades of Sniečkus’s rule national orientation was noticeable in his activities. First confrontation with Moscow happened in 1949-1950, when he had to defend his old communist friends from persecution, with whom he was together working in underground. Lithuania was the only republic of USSR where not only mass persecution of old communists did not happen and not even one communist of pre-Soviet times was accused and arrested. At around this time his policies started to gain a national character. This policy had the form of sabotaging some orders of Moscow, demanding some privileges for Lithuania, and others.[1]

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antanas_Snie%C4%8Dkus?wprov=sfti1

    Unfortunately Wikipedia is not very detailed, but I read about it somewhere else.

    Similar economic development patterns were noticeable for example in Ceausescu’s Romania, too, and Romanians, if asked, will not know anything about policies which somehow accidentally resulted in the swamping of ethnically Hungarian areas with Romanians. Of course only Hungarians noticed this side effect.

    It was either deliberate or at least the planners were not at all unhappy with that development.

  342. @Dmitry

    The annexation of this area was not internationally recognized, and the Baltic countries are within international law to consider them immigrants.

    These settlers and their descendants are the victims of communism, which settled them there. In any event they have rather shallow roots there, having arrived in the 1950s at the earliest.

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
  343. many American Jews are like the New York Times owner, or yourself, or even in a way Greasy

    I’m not anti Israel. I’m anti hypocrisy.

    I have never disputed that Jews in the Land of Israel have been on the receiving end of murderous Arab terrorism for the last 140 years. I have repeatedly called for such terrorism to brutally avenged. In this very thread I wrote that most people aren’t aware of just how difficult Israel’s situation is and how that causes them to misread Israeli actions vis-a-vis the Palestinians.

    I have merely stated that the Arab terrorist campaign needs to be put in a much larger context then simply “Arabs = evil”, something that even David Ben Gurion and Moshe Dayan recognized; and also that Israel has itself often been both aggressive and brutal when dealing with the Arabs; much more so than many of it’s partisans recognize.

    Your continuing attempts to paint me as being anti Israel are really just bizarre.

  344. @for-the-record

    When he got his Lithuanian passport he was forced to “Lithuanize” his name.

    The horror, the horror!

    Of course, routine for Hungarians in Slovakia, including my relatives there. That is, those who were not deported in 1946 for being disloyal to Czechoslovakia. (The irony is of course that Slovaks were disloyal, too.) Hungarians had a presence since the 10th century.

  345. Dmitry says:
    @Thorfinnsson

    I agree strongly. I do not think Swedish radical-liberal politics is a good role model (even if the Swedish nationality, outside of politics, can be very successful).

    The New York Times are in love with Sweden, but in a very sentimental appearing way.

    New York Times is also not very consistent. They often seem to love Islamic countries – and even holds holidays to Iran and Pakistan. But the conservative or Muslim ideology of the Middle East is not consistent with New York Times ideology for America (or their fake news about Russia on topics likes sexual minorities).

    In Russia, all they care about is sexual minorities. But with Iran there is no interest in sexual minorities.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/25/world/middleeast/iran-meet-our-man-in-tehran.html

    https://www.nytimes.com/times-journeys/travel/iran-tales-persia/

    It would be interesting if New York Times experts could create an atlas of countries they hate and countries they love. And also the reasoning of it.

    For some countries, like Japan, they love, even despite the contrast with all their immigration policies.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/13/world/asia/japan-african-university-president-sacko.html

    Whereas with Sweden, of course, their love is usually consistent with their radical politics.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/24/world/europe/sweden-gender-neutral-preschools.html

    And their love of Netherlands – in relation to belief in the climate change religion:

    https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/06/15/world/europe/climate-change-rotterdam.html

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    , @Thorfinnsson
  346. @for-the-record

    Well, I don’t really need apologies, but then they should drop the “we liberated you from the Nazis” shtick. Because then, who is this “we”?

  347. @Mikhail

    But there were many fewer Jews altogether. Without ww2, a relatively small percentage of Zionists among Jews could have resulted in a steady flow of immigrants. Hitler accelerated it probably (also by weakening the British Empire).

  348. @Pavlo

    Russia has nevertheless apologized occasionally.

    I don’t think a lot of apologies are needed, but then drop the official line about having liberated Estonia and Germany (lol) of fascism or something. That’s a stupid Soviet narrative anyway, and a retrospective one at that. The Soviets gave out medals “For The Capture of Budapest,” but then a few months later started to claim that they “liberated” it. Hungary was an Axis ally, and you don’t “liberate” an enemy. (Though for many Hungarians, and not only Jewish ones, it felt a little bit like liberation, after the increasing lawlessness of the German occupation and especially Arrow Cross rule.) But then even more stupidly they started claiming that they liberated Berlin, too. Even more stupidly, that’s not only the German Antifa position, but the official position of the German federal government, too.

    That’s basically almost as retarded as the worship of transsexuals. I hate this level of retard.

    Why can’t we just say that Russia fought a war of national survival and won it, gloriously capturing the enemy capital, Berlin? They also conquered a number of countries in the process. They did some bad things there, but they had a bad system which caused a lot of suffering to Russians themselves. Now they have a better system.

    • Replies: @Pavlo
  349. 1. I accept your point about Ochs-Sulzberger ethnicity.

    2. As I pointed out, others have “confirmed” the generally pro-Israeli bias of NYT foreign policy. But I will grant you that NYT is more “balanced” than Washington Post.

    3. Of course many don’t like Mondoweiss (“self-hating Jew” and all that) but that doesn’t make him unreliable.

    By the way, here is a very interesting article from Mondoweiss that I think you should read, concerning a new book by the (expatriate) Israeli historian Ilan Pappé:

    http://mondoweiss.net/2018/01/examining-myths-israel/

    You have no doubt read his previous books, since you are so well informed about Israel and its history.

    The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine

    The Biggest Prison on Earth: The History of the Israeli Occupation

    What did you think of them?

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  350. Pavlo says:
    @reiner Tor

    Russia has nevertheless apologized occasionally.

    Indeed, and it has been worse than ineffective. No amount of grovelling for Katyn stops Poland from naming streets after Chechen terrorists or claiming that faggot Kaczynski’s brother was killed by anything other than his own stupidity. I would say lesson learned, but Russians don’t really seem capable of absorbing this one.

    drop the official line about having liberated Estonia and Germany (lol) of fascism or something

    If Germany wasn’t liberated from fascism, then the war really was against the German people. And in that case the Russian government and the country in general would have to admit that the Krauts were and are hellspawn who should have perished in the inferno they created.

    A dopey bunch like the Russians will never admit that particular bit of the bleeding obvious. It’s not only politically but psychologically impossible.

  351. PP says:
    @Mikel

    the (justified) outrage provoked by the Spanish police brutality during the Catalan referendum which nevertheless didn’t produce any serious injuries.

    It is evident that the notion of “police brutality” is quite a relative one, depending on the historical and sociological context. In an area as generally faggot and degenerate as Spanish Catalonia, I guess that even a slap in the face will be considered a “brutality”. It did not use to be like this over there, where a couple of generations ago, Catalans were still a rough bunch, but this is what it is now. This is also why their independence movement was doomed to failed miserably as it did; what did they think they could achieve with gay leaders like Puigdemont? If they want to become independent against the will of Madrid (and of Brussels as it seems), they’ll have to behave more like Chechens (and even that was not quite enough) than like Barcelonian metrosexuals.

    Spaniards haven’t stopped talking about the need to improve their exterior image since then.

    Seriously — who’s giving a rat’s ass about Spain’s exterior image, other than beaches, nice weather, and cheap booze?

    • Replies: @Mikel
  352. @Mr. Hack

    So basically Russians are Orthodox Finno-Mongol Muslim Asiatic hybrid mongrels. I think the author managed to fit practically every Svidomite trope in there.

    It is amusing how universal this ‘Every neighbour to the east of me is Asiatic’ view is in Europe. If we applied this opinion to its widest extent, Europe would stop at the Rhin.

    Almost as amusing are these American and vassal-European maps that put Russia outside of Europe but include Turkey, that great defender of laïcité and enlightened gender roles and whatever makes you ‘European’ these days.

    Given how much Ukrainian nationalists emphasise how great the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth was and how much Ukrainians (and apparently, also Bielorussians) are like Poles, why don’t you just petition to have Warsaw annex you? I am not mocking you, I mean it seriously. I would respect Ukrainian nationalists a lot more if they simply admitted that they want to be Poles.

    • Replies: @PP
    , @Mr. Hack
    , @AP
  353. The author assumes that a Detente with West is possible, ‘in your dreams’. You can see how toxic is the atmosphere! What Russia is doing is suicidal, betraying every potential ally one after the other. It’s strange the kind of hold Israel have on Putin. Prior to the Georgian war who was arming Georgia for the offense – Israel. Most of the newly joined NATO members have serious military ties with Israel. But still action against Israel is unthinkable!

    • Replies: @PP
  354. PP says:
    @The Missing Equilibrium

    Most of the newly joined NATO members have serious military ties with Israel.

    This is true. However the elephant in the hallway here is the United States, for its demographics will relatively soon (estimates vary but this is already inevitable) turn the most pro-Israel constituency into a permanent minority. American Blacks hate Jews in general (cf. what happened to this poor Bernie schmuck), and Hispanics are in no love with them either. The United States are slated to be become gradually but inevitably less amicable to Israel as the boomer cuckservatives fade away. Democrat lawmakers are, if not switching sides, at least becoming progressively more sympathetic to the Palestinian side. Israeli leaders know this (Jews are the absolute masters at exploiting internal division amongst Gentiles as history amply demonstrates). In this regard, the Trump presidency — or, rather, the Kushner presidency, is more likely to be a last gasp of the Israel-firsters in DC than a long-lasting regaining of influence.

    It’s strange the kind of hold Israel have on Putin.

    Putin knows that the Israelis know the above.

  355. PP says:
    @Hyperborean

    I would respect Ukrainian nationalists a lot more if they simply admitted that they want to be Poles.

    For my vantage point, which arguably is not the best one as I cannot read any of thelanguages of the two conflicting sides, the main mystery regards the belief of Ukrainian nationalists that there could be something like a fully independent Ukraine. Even if Russia was too weak to do anything against it, it defies all rational observation of past events in that part of the world that the other neighbors would let it be anything else than, at best, a vassal state, akin to the lesser countries surrounding Germany.

    Now, it may be demonstrated — again, I don’t really know — that most of present-day Ukraine is closer to Poland, ethnically, religiously (that point is quite obvious), or culturally, than to Russia.

    On the religious front:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priestly_Society_of_Saint_Josaphat

    http://sspx.org/en/news-events/news/ukraine-celebrates-st-josaphat-martyr-unity-church-30427

    http://thetraditionalcatholicfaith.blogspot.fr/2010/10/priestly-society-of-saint-josaphat.html?m=1

  356. Mr. Hack says:
    @Hyperborean

    I would respect Ukrainian nationalists a lot more if they simply admitted that they want to be Poles.

    They want to be Poles so much that they ended up slaughtering a couple hundred thousand of them in Volyn in the 1930′s?..Do you begin to realize how silly your stuff sounds?…

    • Replies: @AP
    , @PP
    , @Hyperborean
  357. AP says:
    @DFH

    http://www.historycentral.com/Revolt/Americans/americansrev.html

    “The Americans of 1776 were not all patriots. In fact, according to John Adams’ estimates, about one third were patriots, one third loyalists, and one third were either neutral or indifferent. In New York and Georgia, more people joined the King’s army than the Continental Army, while New Englanders generally supported Washington’s efforts”

    British heavy-handedness may have created more Patriots over time since 1776, and the Patriots had massive French assistance.

  358. AP says:
    @Mr. Hack

    It was 60,000 – 100,000, in the 1940s, and it was not majority of Ukrainians but the OUN/UPA who did it.

  359. PP says:
    @Mr. Hack

    They want to be Poles so much that they ended up slaughtering a couple hundred thousand of them in Volyn in the 1930′s?

    The problem when using this sort of usage of third person plural pronouns is that it may appear syntactically correct (they/they), while it is semantically incorrect for those two subjects do not refer to the same group of people: whereas the former evidently refers to “the Ukrainian nationalists” (of today as this the group regarding which you were responding to Hyberborean’s original message), the latter obviously refers to another group of people who are all dead by now (“in the 1930′s”).

    In other words your sentence does not actually mean anything, from a logical standpoint, for it would indicate that those who committed such malevolent acts in the 1930s would be the same people as Hyperborean’s nationalist Ukrainians. You may want to consider re-phrasing it.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  360. @Mr. Hack

    Which makes it all more bizarre that a significant counterpoint of modern-day Ukrainian nationalists (at least here at UR) against Russia is that Ukrainians are a lot like Poles.

    To be honest the Moskali tropes I can understand but I don’t get this strange relationship you have with Poland.

    When arguing against Russia, your kind are full of praise for the Commonwealth and the kindred freedom-loving spirit of Ukrainians and other Central Europeans.

    However when Russia is taken out of the equation discussions between Poles and Ukrainians seem to devolve into how Ukrainians were persecuted by both Russia and Poland and how Poles should acknowledge their oppression of Ukrainians.

    • Replies: @AP
  361. AP says:
    @Hyperborean

    Given how much Ukrainian nationalists emphasise how great the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth

    Where did you get this idea? Ukrainian nationalists have about as much anti-Polish mythology about this as do Russian nationalists. I haven’t heard Ukrainian nationalists emphasize how great the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth was.

    and how much Ukrainians (and apparently, also Bielorussians) are like Poles,

    Belorussians are as heavily Russified as the ethnic Ukrainians of the Donbas.

    why don’t you just petition to have Warsaw annex you

    This would be like saying to Poles – if you want to join NATO/EU, why not petition Germany or USA to annex you? It’s silly.

    There are about as many Ukrainians in eastern Europe as there are Poles. Best option would be if the peoples of Central and Eastern Europe had their own alliance, free of both western self-hatred and “progressivism,” and Russian domination.

    I would respect Ukrainian nationalists a lot more if they simply admitted that they want to be Poles.

    Debunking silly Russian nationalist myths about Ukrainians being just like Russians by pointing out facts concerning Polish similarities is not the same as wanting to be Poles.

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
    , @Mikhail
  362. Well to be fair to other Ukrainian nationalists the ones I read mostly seems to be composed of Mr. Hack and AP so perhaps other Ukrainian nationalists are less schizophrenic.

    • Replies: @AP
  363. LondonBob says:
    @AP

    Adams was a Yankee, his section supported independence almost uniformly so it would be an odd observation. That article even contradicts itself.

    https://historynewsnetwork.org/article/5641

    Supplying Syria with the S300 makes more sense than attacking US troops because some mercenaries ignored the rules of the game and got involved on the wrong side of the Euphrates.

  364. AP says:
    @Hyperborean

    Which makes it all more bizarre that a significant counterpoint of modern-day Ukrainian nationalists (at least here at UR) against Russia is that Ukrainians are a lot like Poles.

    I’ve been making this argument and I am not a Ukrainian nationalist. I am simply a Ukrainian who knows facts about the place where my people are from.

    Ukrainians were persecuted by both Russia and Poland and how Poles should acknowledge their oppression of Ukrainians.

    This is how typical Ukrainian nationalists feel – Poland and Russia treated Ukraine like Germany and Russia treated Poland. Khmelnysty’s rebellion was a war of liberation against Polish nationalists (reality – it was largely a civil war between different Ukrainian factions), etc.

    However, because Poland no longer holds Ukrainian territory and has to pretensions to it, modern Ukrainian nationalists naturally consider Russia and not Poland to be an enemy currently. They see Poland as a model, and whitewash past Ukrainian nationalist crimes against Poles, as seen in this interview of a modern Ukrainian nationalist leader with a Polish journalist:

    http://euromaidanpress.com/2018/02/22/poland-journalist-talks-nationalism-with-ukraine-right-sector-leader/

  365. @AP

    From the Does Belarusian-Ukrainian Civilization Belong to the Western or the Latin Civilization? paper that Mr. Hack linked to:

    Belarusian and Ukrainian Slavs retained their identity and civilization in the Grand
    Duchy of Lithuania (GDL), which effectively united the Eastern Slavs in the 13th-15th
    centuries after the breakup of Kievan Rus. This kind of unifying role could not be
    performed by Muscovy for a good reason—at that time it was a vassal state of the
    Mongol Golden Horde. The GDL ceased “eurasiation” of a large part of the Slavs, the
    future Belarusians and Ukrainians.

    In the 15th – 17th centuries the GDL defended European values from Eurasian ones.
    Numerous wars provoked by Muscovy against the GDL under the guise of Orthodox
    population protection were not successful because people of the GDL defended various
    civilization values including religious tolerance

    .

    [T]he creation
    of the GDL, the principality which united a substantial part of Eastern Slavs, current
    Belarusians and Ukrainians, and saved them from the strong Eurasian influence.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    , @AP
  366. AP says:
    @Hyperborean

    I am not a Ukrainian nationalist, I am just a Ukrainian.

    In the twisted world of Russian nationalism all Ukrainians are Russians and any Ukrainian who does not consider himself to be one is a “nationalist.” Reality is different.

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
  367. @AP

    Would you prefer I call you a Ukrainian patriot instead? I am not trying insult you by calling you a nationalist. It is simply that everyone east of the Elbe seems like a nationalist to me. Perhaps it is a matter of definitions in that what you would call nationalist I would call a ultra nationalist?

    • Replies: @AP
  368. Mr. Hack says:

    Yeah, so?

    Also, you omit one of the more salient points within the paper:

    Considering the development of Belarusian-Ukrainian civilization in space and time, one can observe that it differs substantially (ethnically, religiously, mentally) from Eurasian civilization. The people of Belarusian-Ukrainian civilization have a number of attributes which point to their European nature including a multicenturies history; the presence of European civilizational processes and institutions (Renaissance, Reformation, Counter-Reformation, Uniate, enlightenment, Parliament, Seym, the Magdeburg rights); modern state-building processes; and integration into
    European life. K

  369. Mr. Hack says:
    @Hyperborean

    Yeah, so?

    Also, you omit one of the more salient points within the paper:

    Considering the development of Belarusian-Ukrainian civilization in space and time, one can observe that it differs substantially (ethnically, religiously, mentally) from Eurasian civilization. The people of Belarusian-Ukrainian civilization have a number of attributes which point to their European nature including a multicenturies history; the presence of European civilizational processes and institutions (Renaissance, Reformation, Counter-Reformation, Uniate, enlightenment, Parliament, Seym, the Magdeburg rights); modern state-building processes; and integration into European life.

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
  370. AP says:
    @Hyperborean

    Author of that article is not a Ukrainian nationalist but a Belarussian.

    Article is probably correct. Saying that Poland, Belarus and Ukraine belongs to the same “civilizational space” is not the same as saying they should be annexing one another or that they are the same. Sweden, Norway and Denmark belong to the same “civilizational space.” As do Spain and Portugal, and Hungary, Croatia, Austria, etc.

    • Agree: Mr. Hack
  371. @Dmitry

    The goal of Russian-speakers, is not this – it is simply to allow their children to speak their language. Maybe you can say ‘who cares?’ Because, for example, immigrants’s children should not have bilingual education. But this goes back to the posts above – these people are not ‘immigrants’ or ‘settlers’. They are living in their home country, from the time when this was all the same country.

    These things are true.

    They are also completely irrelevant to the Balts.

    Of course if the Balts were logical they would work on arrangements with the Russian Federation to peacefully and gradually repatriate the ethnic Russians who wish to remain Russian.

    But one thing I’ve noticed about Russophobic Eastern Europeans is that they are all irrationally anti-Russian and thus refuse to cooperate with Moscow even when doing so is logical.

    • Replies: @Johann Ricke
  372. Mr. Hack says:
    @PP

    You seem to have way too much time on your hands my friend. I’m writing these comments in the midst of getting prepared for my working day: breakfast, shower, making a salad for lunch are at the top of my priority list right now, not the fine points of English grammar.

  373. Since we are talking about Poland, it seems that the agitation against Poland is heating up:

    Poles fatally betrayed most of country’s Jews in hiding from Nazis, study claims

    http://www.timesofisrael.com/poles-helped-kill-most-of-countrys-jews-in-hiding-from-nazis-new-study-claims/?utm_referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fzen.yandex.com

    • Replies: @Mikhail
    , @DFH
  374. @reiner Tor

    International recognition of annexation is one of many manifestations of the poz. The true nature of international law is the right of conquest. One no more needs to “recognize” a territorial annexation than one must recognize the existence of an ocean. It simply is.

    But yes, Balts are victims of communism…along with everyone else East of the Elbe including Russians.

  375. AP says:
    @Hyperborean

    I posted this before:

    Would you prefer I call you a Ukrainian patriot instead

    Although I view nationalism as a lesser evil than other ideologies, such as Communism, I am opposed to nationalism, which is in essence a form of idolatry. I prefer prenationalist systems such as Austria-Hungary and with strong qualifications Rzeczpospolita, to the nationalist states that followed. Love of local cultures and traditions is not nationalism.

    My origins are in Ukraine, and I support all locals and their movements, be they decent nationalists (I am not a supporter of bloody mid-20th century Banderists), both Bohdan Khmelnytsky and his nemesis Jarema Wiszniowecki whom Ukrainian nationalists despise, Little Russian activists, Galician Muscophiles, all who have supported their people or defended and developed local culture in their own ways, regardless of their ideology.

    That would make me a patriot, not a nationalist.

    My wife is Russian, I have lived in Russia, I love Russian culture, Moscow is my favorite city in the world – these things would not be true of a Ukrainian nationalist.

  376. Mikhail says: • Website
    @AP

    Ukrainian nationalists have about as much anti-Polish mythology about this as do Russian nationalists.

    Your mythology reeks as noted here:

    http://www.unz.com/akarlin/no-victory/#comment-2328482

    A good primer for those not who’re so well versed with the issues at hand – includes some of those who think they’re relatively well versed.

  377. Mikhail says: • Website

    I prefer prenationalist systems such as Austria-Hungary and with strong qualifications Rzeczpospolita, to the nationalist states that followed. Love of local cultures and traditions is not nationalism.

    BS as Austria-Hungary promoted an anti-Russian premised Ukrianian nationalism that related to Russian Empire territory as opposed to what the Habsburgites occupied.

    Some like yourself sugar coat the Polish imperialism behind “Rzeczpospolita”

    My wife is Russian, I have lived in Russia, I love Russian culture, Moscow is my favorite city in the world – these things would not be true of a Ukrainian nationalist.

    Doesn’t cover your anti-Russian BS as broken down here:

    http://www.unz.com/akarlin/no-victory/#comment-2328482

    • Replies: @AP
  378. @Dmitry

    Non-white countries are not held to progressive standards by Western liberals. This is because in their religion non-whites are sacred talismans, and any negative thing they do is simply because of Western colonialism, imperialism, white supremacy, racism, etc.

    As an example the “homophobic” policies and views of many African governments have been blamed on American evangelical missionaries. No I am not joking.

    In general Western liberals are filled with pious praise for all non-whites, with the occasional exception of states the Dweeb State has decided must be destroyed (e.g. the Jew York Crimes beat the drums of war relentlessly for Iraq). They will break with the Dweeb State however if the country in question is considered suitably “progressive”. There’s long-standing praise of Communist Cuba for instance, because it instituted Free Healthcare™. And nothing is more important than Free Healthcare™, unlike in America where people are dying by the millions in the streets so evil insurance company executives can pocket trillions as they roast innocent black babies over open campfires and cackle.

    White people and countries are praised to the extent that they conform progressive religious dogma, hence the effusive praise of Sweden. White countries which do not conform are demonized. Witness the insane hostility to Russia over its refusal to worship homo-sexuals, and lately the endless attacks on the Visegrad 4 for daring to exist.

    American liberals also have an embarrassing love affair with a phony idea of Western Europe as being more sophisticated (maybe true in the distant past) and more liberal (where did these ideas come from) than America. Hence ever since Trump’s election you have absurd op-eds calling Angela Merkel the leader of the West.

    Japan occasionally comes in for criticism for its relative immigration restrictionism. Many concern trolling pieces have been produced this century claiming Japan “needs” immigrants. On occasion there are attacks on the BJP and Narendra Modi, since the Hindutva ideology reminds them of that Orange Hitler DRUMP who is surely done for this time…

    • Replies: @songbird
  379. AP says:
    @Mikhail

    Note to other readers:

    I have chosen not to interact with Mikhail because he is dumb, uneducated and boring.

    If someone else is curious about points he makes and wants to discuss them with me, I will respond.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    , @Mikhail
  380. Mikhail says: • Website
    @Hyperborean

    Nothing new, as there’ve been Jewish accounts of such in the decades since WW II.

    At the same time, it’s inaccurate to overly generalize in such a manner. Poles suffered as well with instances of Poles helping Jews. At play is a mixed bag situation.

    Can understand why Poland (at least a good portion of it) is offended by the term of Polish concentration camps, as opposed to saying Nazi run concentration camps in Poland.

    On a somewhat related note, much of Bulgaria has been offended by claims that it collaborated with Nazi Germany against Jews. In Bulgaria itself, Jews were shielded. Outside Bulgaria, that country’s armed forces were involved in the rounding up of Jews, who were then sent to Nazi run camps that didn’t involve Bulgarians.

  381. Mr. Hack says:
    @AP

    No takers? Ha, ha!! :-)

    • Replies: @Mikhail
  382. @Mr. Hack

    ‘Everybody to the east/south of me is asiatic/mohammedean’ is an old game. Why not exclude Iberia, Sicily or the Balkans? Maybe Europe should be restricted to the west of the Hajnal line? Or perhaps to be truly European a country needs to adhere to the social values of the European Union?

    In any case I dislike these liberal ‘linear processes’ arguments. Does this mean that Imperial or National Socialist Germany was not European because it did not follow a neat Anglo-Saxon liberal trajectory?

    What about the large number of Frenchmen who rejected the Liberal revolutionary values of Liberté, Égalité, Fraternité even a century after the Revolution?

    Why not just agree with the EU’s definition of not-European as everyone who does not agree with social ultra-liberalism and flooding the continent with millions of subaltern foreigners?

    In that case better to be asiatic Eurasians than to fight for a much-vaunted status as ‘Europeans’ only to lose one’s country.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    , @AP
  383. Mikhail says: • Website
    @AP

    Note to readers that AP carries on like an underhanded sleaze, who has the sovok attribute of issuing personal against very cogent points that debunk the BS which he repeatedly peddles.

    The intelligence which he suggests of himself is quite overrated.

    • Replies: @Mikhail
  384. Mikhail says: • Website
    @Mr. Hack

    To be expected from someone (you), who carries on like a boob sitting in the cheap seats.

    Ha, Ha!! :)

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  385. DFH says:
    @AP

    British heavy-handedness may have created more Patriots over time since 1776

    Almost certainly, New Jersey was very receptive to the Howes’ pardons before they let loose their army of German rapists and Germain had several coastal towns burnt down.

    • Replies: @Anon
  386. Mikhail says: • Website
    @Mikhail

    Should read as:

    Note to readers that AP carries on like an underhanded sleaze, who has the sovok attribute of issuing personal attacks against cogent points that debunk the BS which he repeatedly peddles.

    Will add that I make myself available to furher answer to my points – preferably in a respectful enough manner.

  387. DFH says:
    @Hyperborean

    And the Jews betrayed the countries Poles to the Soviets, yet you never hear that mentioned

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
  388. @AP

    “The Americans of 1776 were not all patriots. In fact, according to John Adams’ estimates, about one third were patriots, one third loyalists, and one third were either neutral or indifferent.

    As has been alluded to in earlier comments (and mentioned in the reference that you linked to), this statement by John Adams is not what it is generally purported to be, something that I learned only quite recently (and contradicting what I was taught in school). Here is a clearer presentation:

    This famous quote comes from a letter Adams wrote in 1815 to Massachusetts Senator James Lloyd, saying “I should say that full one third were averse to the revolution…. An opposite third… gave themselves up to an enthusiastic gratitude to France. The middle third,… always averse to war, were rather lukewarm both to England and France;….” Truth is, Adams was not addressing America’s rebellion – he was writing about American attitudes towards the French Revolution, when Americans grappled with either supporting France or maintaining commercial ties with Britain. The mistake appears to stem from historian Sydney George Fisher, who misinterpreted Adams’s meaning in his 1908 book, The Struggle for American Independence, Volume I. Others, reading the quote without the full context of Adams’s letter, have repeated the error ever since. In Fisher’s defense, it is easy to get the context of the passage wrong because it’s buried in the middle of a somewhat windy paragraph that jumps around with references to multiple topics, years, and other correspondence. And that paragraph is buried in the middle of a somewhat windy letter (at 2,105 words) which also jumps around with references to multiple topics, years, and other correspondence. Fisher may have missed the point because he got tired of looking for it.

    https://allthingsliberty.com/2013/02/john-adamss-rule-of-thirds/

    • Replies: @songbird
    , @AP
  389. Mr. Hack says:
    @Mikhail

    Still, I see no takers?…:-)

    Have your average comments per thread at your ‘blog’ increased to more than one?

    Maybe you should try some other topics rather than your hum drum Skoropadsky crap? :-)

    • Replies: @Mikhail
  390. @DFH

    Overall, there is a significant lack of knowledge and discussion of the Jewish over-representation in radical and revolutionary movements among Gentiles.

    Considering that even mainstream Jewish newspapers acknowledge it (although putting a positive spin on it) it really should be more known.

    MIDDLE ISRAEL: WAS KARL MARX A JEW? (Jerusalem Post)

    https://m.jpost.com/Opinion/Was-Karl-Marx-a-Jew-556140?utm_referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fzen.yandex.com

    In crying for the poor, the oppressed and the disenfranchised, Marx picked up from where the prophets left off, as thousands of other Jews would later do, disproportionately represented among Russian, Polish, Hungarian, Czech, and Romanian revolutionaries; the Spanish Civil War’s foreign volunteers; South Africa’s anti-apartheid strugglers; and America’s civil rights, antiwar, and feminist crusaders.

  391. Anon[198] • Disclaimer says:
    @DFH

    Banastre Tarleton’s Brits (and Americans) were far worse than the Hessians.

  392. songbird says:
    @for-the-record

    Adams was probably a pretty intelligent man. He just wasn’t a very good writer, IMO, though. Certainly not when compared to Ben Franklin, for instance.

  393. Mr. Hack says:
    @Hyperborean

    So what does all of this have to do with Ukraine and Belarus having very strong political and cultural ties to Europe?

  394. songbird says:
    @Thorfinnsson

    I think of the appeals to Japan to take in immigrants as being mostly economic (very foolish) in nature. Economists are mostly big planners, and they hate the idea of anyone having a different or smaller plan.

    Rumors of a Japanese death spiral are grossly premature, IMO. Japan is really showing the way forward with automation. If necessary, they will defend their country with bots. Meanwhile, I don’t believe that elderly Japanese will suck the blood from the last Japanese baby. People who think so have probably never seen a baby taken into an old-age home, and don’t understand the Eastern mindset. Even in the West it was customary for the elderly to chose to go without food in times of famine.

  395. @Thorfinnsson

    But one thing I’ve noticed about Russophobic Eastern Europeans is that they are all irrationally anti-Russian and thus refuse to cooperate with Moscow even when doing so is logical.

    When you’re neighbors with an acquisitive foreign power that has claims on your territory, and has overrun it once or twice, there’s no such thing as being irrationally xenophobic re that neighbor. Americans can be irrationally anti-Russian. The Balts and former Warsaw Pact states cannot be. They are anti-Russian because any serious cooperation provides a basis for future conquest and annexation. Germany’s neighbors get along with it because it was defanged after WWII. Russia was very clearly not defanged at the end of the Cold War.

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
  396. @Johann Ricke

    The former Soviet satellites (and SSRs) being wary and suspicious of Russia is logical and natural.

    What is not logical is coming up with cack-brained conspiracy theories about the villainous dark lord of the Kremlin personally ordering the assassination of Poland’s leadership.

    And as it turned out Germany was not defanged, as it is now once again threatening Mitteleuropa, this time with political and economic weapons. Incidentally a similar policy was pursued by the Weimar Republic under Stresemann, who said he could have no foreign policy at all if not for coal and IG Farben.

    I understand why the Balts do not want the permanent incorporation of Russian minorities in their countries. Logically, they should seek to work with Russia to resolve this issue. I’m not sure how this provides the basis for future conquest and annexation.

    And really, if Russia wants to conquer and annex the Baltic states then it will. They can’t be defended.

    Poland is a different matter and actually can be defended.

    And some countries in Eastern Europe do cooperate with Russia. Hungary and the Czech Republic for instance. I realize these countries do not actually border the Russian Federation, but they were both invaded by the Warsaw Pact.

    • Replies: @Johann Ricke
  397. Dmitry says:
    @for-the-record

    Hi thanks for the book recommendations – no I haven’t read the books though. To be honest, I have never read any history books on this topic so I won’t discuss the history or what happened 70 years ago. I’ll hold a general view that there is probably some injustices on both sides. (I do like reading history books, but more about the Ancient world).

    As for how I noticed that there was bias in New York Times and BBC. I’ve been studying Hebrew for over two years, and can more or less now read the reports in the original Hebrew language, before comparing it to reporting in New York Times. They use the same reports for most stories, but will remove context and details, and to pursue their own objective. I was noticing this originally in relation to the stories on the African illegal immigration (where for example, the whole Israeli point of view – or the endless crimes they of the illegal immigrants – mainly rapes -, were removed from all the articles, and used to attack the country for not being happy with the illegal immigration).

    In addition, I know a lot of the complexity in Israel, as I have friends there (permanent immigrants), still visit regularly and learn all kinds of things which you would never hear in New York Times in a thousand years.

    • Replies: @utu
  398. AP says:
    @for-the-record

    Thank you for the correction.

    My own impression was about 40% for, 30% against, the rest indifferent, with “for” increasing over time due to British policies. New York supported the British, and Georgia got more pro-British than pro-Patriot volunteers, but here were Loyalists scattered everywhere. Some town in Canada was founded by South Carolina loyalist veterans. Even New England, the most anti-British region, produced the “traitor” Benedict Arnold.

  399. AP says:
    @Hyperborean

    Culture goes deeper than ideology. A French communist is still a European, a Chinese one is not.

    • Replies: @PP
    , @utu
    , @Hyperborean
  400. PP says:
    @AP

    A French communist is still a European, a Chinese one is not.

    True. And both deserve to be sent to a forced labor camp.

    • Agree: AP
  401. @Thorfinnsson

    And really, if Russia wants to conquer and annex the Baltic states then it will. They can’t be defended.

    While they can’t be defended, they can certainly be reacquired. The Russian military is a pale shadow of its Soviet counterpart. During the Cold War, it was pretty much assumed that continental Europe would be partly overrun by the Warsaw Pact, including all of West Germany, and that Uncle Sam would hopefully get reinforcements across the English Channel before the Soviets reached the Atlantic.

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
  402. @Johann Ricke

    Reacquisition basically means NATO launching its own Barbarossa.

    What could go wrong?

    And yes, I realize on paper that NATO would win this conflict provided it did not go nuclear (how comforting).

    It was idiotic to ever incorporate the Baltics into NATO to begin with in light of their geography. Not only does Russia have overwhelming escalation dominance in the Baltics, but there’s only one major highway leading into the Baltics from Poland and they use the Russian broad rail gauge (maybe this changed?). And needless to say attempting to supply Baltic ports by sea is a suicide mission. And whatever their “European values” or whatever, their strategic value is marginal.

    Poland is a different story since its an extension of the North European Plain and well served by road, rail, and waterway connections to Germany and North Sea ports. If NATO wants to defend Germany then logically Poland should be in NATO.

    • Replies: @AP
    , @Matra
    , @Johann Ricke
  403. utu says:
    @AP

    If he/she comes from Christian family he/she is. A communist of Jewish origins is anti-Europeans. This is not about looks and phenotype.

    • Replies: @AP
  404. utu says:
    @Dmitry

    In addition, I know a lot of the complexity in Israel, as I have friends there (permanent immigrants), still visit regularly and learn all kinds of things which you would never hear in New York Times in a thousand years.

    Like whether Palestinians are more like cancer or like virus. This is the subtlety of Israeli kind that you won’t find in NYT. NYT covers up for Israel just as you are doing here.

  405. AP says:
    @Thorfinnsson

    Poland is a different story since its an extension of the North European Plain and well served by road, rail, and waterway connections to Germany and North Sea ports. If NATO wants to defend Germany then logically Poland should be in NATO

    And by further extension, a willing Ukraine.

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
  406. @AP

    Geographically, sure, though not quite the same as Poland. The Ukraine is much further away from Germany and secure ports. Road connections into the Ukraine are poorer, and the rail gauge is Russian. Major capital investments would be required.

    Politically it strikes me as an awful idea to incorporate the Ukraine into NATO. Panzer divisions in Kharkov? I’m already not very enthused about the alliance, as I don’t think it bolsters our security (quite the opposite).

    Then again the Russians apparently put up with NATO in the Baltics, so near to St. Petersburg. Granted, the Russian armed forces were in a much weaker state in 2004, and Russia at that time had good relations with Germany and France.

    The original idea was a neutral, denuclearized Ukraine. Seems like it worked fine until the Maidan.

    There’s also that matter that the Russians (or rather Soviets) were promised no NATO enlargement, though frankly Gorbachev was an idiot for not getting that on paper.

    • Replies: @AP
  407. AP says:
    @utu

    If he/she comes from Christian family he/she is.

    Correct.

    A communist of Jewish origins is anti-Europeans.

    This depends on the individual case. Someone going from the shtetl to Communism is not a European in the cultural sense. OTOH people like Heinrich Heine or his cousin Karl Marx, Ludwig Wittgenstein, Stefan Zweig and many similar cases ought to be classified as Europeans. I realize only Zweig was not a Christian on this list.

    This is not about looks and phenotype.

    Agreed, as the case of Chechens or many Hasids makes obvious.

    • Replies: @utu
  408. AP says:
    @Thorfinnsson

    Geographically, sure.

    Politically it strikes me as an awful idea to incorporate the Ukraine into NATO. Panzer divisions in Kharkov?

    More Ukrainians are happy about it than opposed to it. Why not extend the defensive line another 700 miles west when you have a willing host population? The Russians would be glad if NATO walked away from this easily-obtained advantage, but why would NATO deny itself this. As you wrote, Russians accepted NATO next to St. Petersburg, they will accept it in Crimea-less Ukraine.

    The original idea was a neutral, denuclearized Ukraine. Seems like it worked fine until the Maidan.

    Maidan was a revolt against an unpopular guy trying to become a dictator and trying to bind Ukraine to Russia. If neutral is impossible, Ukrainians prefer West to Russia, as Maidan (and endless polls) show. Especially now, that the most pro-Russian parts of Ukraine are no longer in Ukraine.

    Also, it seems that Ukraine is probably not large enough,, and not geographically isolated enough, to be a neutral zone by itself. Finland is on the periphery, Ukraine is right between two large blocs. It is large, but not large enough to exist all alone without being pulled into one of them.

    OTOH, an Intermarium containing Poland, Ukraine, the Baltics, Hungary, Slovakia, Czechia, etc. would be a viable neutral power between the West and Russia.

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
  409. Mikhail says: • Website
    @Mr. Hack

    A clear majority of my comments don’t bring up Skoropadsky, in addition to being more accurate than the crap you spew.
    ;)

  410. Matra says:
    @Thorfinnsson

    Not only does Russia have overwhelming escalation dominance in the Baltics, but there’s only one major highway leading into the Baltics from Poland and they use the Russian broad rail gauge (maybe this changed?)

    There’s now a standard gauge (ie. non-Russian) line between Kaunas and Bialystok, Poland. All the other lines in the three Baltic states go east to Russia. They are working on a standard gauge line between the three capitals – mostly paid for by the EU, which usually means Germany, the Netherlands, and UK. At present you have to go by bus or car if travelling between the three.

  411. Mikhail says: • Website

    Maidan was a revolt against an unpopular guy trying to become a dictator and trying to bind Ukraine to Russia. If neutral is impossible, Ukrainians prefer West to Russia, as Maidan (and endless polls) show. Especially now, that the most pro-Russian parts of Ukraine are no longer in Ukraine.

    More like it was a coup against a democratically elected leader, after he signed an internationally brokered power sharing arrangement.

    The polling done in the former Ukrainian SSR before the coup indicated an overall non-Ukrainian support for NATO membership, coupled with close results on preferring the EU or Russian involved Eurasian Customs Union.

    BTW, Yanukovych didn’t support Russia becoming a full fledged member of the latter, while seeking a better agreement for Ukraine with the EU.

    https://www.globalresearch.ca/twisted-history-against-russia-and-serbia/5390154

    Excerpt –

    Yanukovych’s ouster saw the following developments become either implemented, or enhanced from what they’d been:

    – disproportionate Rada ministerial appointments by the then acting Turchynov-Yatsenyuk regime in Kiev, to people associated with the pro-Bandera/anti-Russian leaning nationalist Svoboda organization

    – scrapping of a law safeguarding Russian and other minority language rights, only to be later put in a pending kind of limbo status

    – violent manner of the nationalist anti-Russian slanted Svoboda and Right Sector movements – some examples are clearly available on tape

    – a situation in Kiev and some other parts of Ukraine that became unfairly challenging to individuals with views running counter to the Turchynov-Yatsenyuk regime, in the lead up to the May 25 Ukrainian presidential election

    – replacing the pro-Russian utilized St. George’s ribbon, honoring the May 9th Victory Day, with an emblem having the black and red colors of the pro-Bandera movement

    – Svoboda advocated removal of a monument honoring Napoleonic era Russian General Mikhail Kutuzov.

    As a follow-up to the last point, the ancestors of modern day Ukrainians, whether in the Romanov or Habsburg empires, had mostly supported Russia against Napoleon.)

  412. utu says:
    @AP

    There is no question about Ludwig Wittgenstein. Ludwig Wittgenstein came from family that converted to Christianity. He himself had Christian spiritual awaking during WWI after reading Tolstoy’s Christian writings.

  413. Mikhail says: • Website

    Reminded of some saying that Putin isn’t assertive enough on the foreign policy front:

    https://www.yahoo.com/news/armenian-pm-tells-putin-wants-closer-military-ties-105113256.html

    The West didn’t appear as interventionist in Armenia unlike some other areas. In turn, Russia treated the change there as a domestic squabble not necessarily changing Armenian-Russian ties.

  414. utu says:

    OT: ‘Terrible massacre’: Israel kills 55, injures 2,771 Gaza protesters as US embassy opens in Jerusalem

    https://www.rt.com/news/426617-gaza-protests-embassy-jerusalem/

  415. @inertial

    We are comparing the Baltics to Israel, right?

    No, YOU are comparing the Baltic states to Israel. I don’t get the point of this comparison since the situations aren’t really comparable.
    And while the Baltic states certainly can be criticized for some aspects of their education and language policies (e.g. I don’t think Latvia should just close down Russian-language teaching), you still haven’t told me how the Baltic states “get away with more than Israel”.

    As Felix mentioned, Baltic Russian population has been super docile.

    Maybe because their situation actually isn’t that bad? Quite a few of them are now citizens and can travel freely in the EU, that’s worth something.

  416. @PP

    Probably not, but tbh I’ve never thought much about WW2 counterfactuals.

    • Replies: @PP
  417. @Thorfinnsson

    Reacquisition basically means NATO launching its own Barbarossa.

    Why would NATO want to conquer Russia? Reacquisition would mean no more and no less than evicting the Russians from the Baltics, much as Iraq was evicted from Kuwait. The only punitive measure I could see happening is the provision of serious weaponry to the Ukraine to help it reacquire the East and Crimea. To show Russia that it can’t use its nuclear forces as a shield for territorial expansion without triggering a serious reaction, any more than it was allowed to, during the Cold War.

  418. @AP

    More Ukrainians are happy about it than opposed to it. Why not extend the defensive line another 700 miles west when you have a willing host population? The Russians would be glad if NATO walked away from this easily-obtained advantage, but why would NATO deny itself this. As you wrote, Russians accepted NATO next to St. Petersburg, they will accept it in Crimea-less Ukraine.

    What Ukrainians think about this is irrelevant to existing NATO members and our interests. This isn’t a club anyone can just walk into, one must be invited by existing members.

    Expanding NATO into the Ukraine strikes me as provocative of Russia, and it creates an undesirable commitment to defend the Ukraine. Other than hothead Caucasoid blockheads the Ukraine strikes me as the most likely area for future conflict in the FSU.

    Hell, let’s say we add the Ukraine to NATO now. Will the Ukraine claim that Russian support for the Donets Basin separatists requires us to intervene under Article V? Thanks, but no thanks.

    You are correct that Russia accepted the incorporation of the Baltics into NATO in 2004, but things have changed since then. And I support the expulsion of the Baltics from NATO anyway since it’s a bad idea to have an alliance commitment to indefensible countries of low strategic value.

    Maidan was a revolt against an unpopular guy trying to become a dictator and trying to bind Ukraine to Russia. If neutral is impossible, Ukrainians prefer West to Russia, as Maidan (and endless polls) show. Especially now, that the most pro-Russian parts of Ukraine are no longer in Ukraine.

    I don’t really know or even care what it was about, other than that I am annoyed by my own government being involved in it. The Ukraine has been very, very badly governed for many years. Worse than any other post-Soviet state it seems. Hopefully that changes.

    Also, it seems that Ukraine is probably not large enough,, and not geographically isolated enough, to be a neutral zone by itself. Finland is on the periphery, Ukraine is right between two large blocs. It is large, but not large enough to exist all alone without being pulled into one of them.

    OTOH, an Intermarium containing Poland, Ukraine, the Baltics, Hungary, Slovakia, Czechia, etc. would be a viable neutral power between the West and Russia.

    An intermarium bloc would’ve been a good idea. Though it should still exclude the Baltics as indefensible, unless perhaps Sweden and Finland were also drawn in. Too bad the crackpot strategists of the Clinton and Bush regimes thought otherwise and decided to go bear-baiting.

    Alternatively one could’ve accepted Putin’s suggestion that Russia itself join NATO and be integrated into a common European economic space.

    That said a neutral Ukraine is useful simply in keeping NATO and Russian forces away from each other in an area where very serious battles are possible owing to the terrain being tank country.

    • Replies: @AP
    , @PP
    , @LatW
  419. Gaza killings: The names of people shot dead by Israeli forces on Monday

    Fifty-five people were killed by Israeli forces in the Gaza Strip on Monday as thousands of Palestinians demonstrated across the occupied territory to mark the 70th anniversary of the Nakba.

    As of Monday afternoon, the Gaza Ministry of Health released the names of 43 Palestinians killed:

    1. Ezz el-din Musa Mohamed Alsamaak, 14 years old

    2. Wisaal Fadl Ezzat Alsheikh Khalil, 15 years old

    3. Ahmed Adel Musa Alshaer, 16 years old

    4. Saeed Mohamed Abu Alkheir, 16 years old

    5. Ibrahim Ahmed Alzarqa, 18 years old

    6. Eman Ali Sadiq Alsheikh, 19 years old

    7. Zayid Mohamed Hasan Omar, 19 years old

    8. Motassem Fawzy Abu Louley, 20 years old

    9. Anas Hamdan Salim Qadeeh, 21 years old

    10. Mohamed Abd Alsalam Harz, 21 years old

    11. Yehia Ismail Rajab Aldaqoor, 22 years old

    12. Mustafa Mohamed Samir Mahmoud Almasry, 22 years old

    13. Ezz Eldeen Nahid Aloyutey, 23 years old

    14. Mahmoud Mustafa Ahmed Assaf, 23 years old

    15. Ahmed Fayez Harb Shahadah, 23 years old

    16. Ahmed Awad Allah, 24 years old

    17. Khalil Ismail Khalil Mansor, 25 years old

    18. Mohamed Ashraf Abu Sitta, 26 years old

    19. Bilal Ahmed Abu Diqah, 26 years old

    20. Ahmed Majed Qaasim Ata Allah, 27 years old

    21. Mahmoud Rabah Abu Maamar, 28 years old

    22.Musab Yousef Abu Leilah, 28 years old

    23. Ahmed Fawzy Altetr, 28 years old

    24. Mohamed Abdelrahman Meqdad, 28 years old

    25. Obaidah Salim Farhan, 30 years old

    26. Jihad Mufid Al-Farra, 30 years old

    27. Fadi Hassan Abu Salmi, 30 years old

    28. Motaz Bassam Kamil Al-Nunu, 31 years old

    29. Mohammed Riyad Abdulrahman Alamudi, 31 years old

    30. Jihad Mohammed Othman Mousa, 31 years old

    31. Shahir Mahmoud Mohammed Almadhoon, 32 years old

    32. Mousa Jabr Abdulsalam Abu Hasnayn, 35 years old

    33. Mohammed Mahmoud Abdulmoti Abdal’al, 39 years old

    34. Ahmed Mohammed Ibrahim Hamdan, 27 years old

    35. Ismail Khalil Ramadhan Aldaahuk, 30 years old

    36. Ahmed Mahmoud Mohammed Alrantisi, 27 years old

    37. Alaa Alnoor Ahmed Alkhatib, 28 years old

    38. Mahmoud Yahya Abdawahab Hussain, 24 years old

    39. Ahmed Abdullah Aladini, 30 years old

    40. Saadi Said Fahmi Abu Salah, 16 years old

    41. Ahmed Zahir Hamid Alshawa, 24 years old

    42. Mohammed Hani Hosni Alnajjar, 33 years old

    43. Fadl Mohamed Ata Habshy, 34 years old

    http://www.middleeasteye.net/news/gaza-names-palestinians-killed-israel-us-embassy-1239370023

    Meanwhile:

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    , @utu
  420. AP says:
    @Thorfinnsson

    Expanding NATO into the Ukraine strikes me as provocative of Russia, and it creates an undesirable commitment to defend the Ukraine. Other than hothead Caucasoid blockheads the Ukraine strikes me as the most likely area for future conflict in the FSU.

    Hell, let’s say we add the Ukraine to NATO now. Will the Ukraine claim that Russian support for the Donets Basin separatists requires us to intervene under Article V? Thanks, but no thanks.

    Any NATO expansion into Ukraine would be accompanied by rejection of further claims on Crimea and Donbas by Ukraine. For the sake of NATO membership and future security it implies, most Ukrainian nationalists would even go along with that. Situation would be messier if Ukraine took back Donbas, so I hope it doesn’t.

    Russia wouldn’t be happy, but it’s not going to go to war over Kiev or even Kharkiv.

    An intermarium bloc would’ve been a good idea. Though it should still exclude the Baltics as indefensible, unless perhaps Sweden and Finland were also drawn in. Too bad the crackpot strategists of the Clinton and Bush regimes thought otherwise and decided to go bear-baiting.

    Agreed.

    If EU starts to split, it is possible. Or if Ukraine one day joins EU, a diluted EU can include an Intermarium.

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    , @LatW
  421. Mikel says:
    @PP

    who’s giving a rat’s ass about Spain’s exterior image, other than beaches, nice weather, and cheap booze?

    Well, some people did get quite worked up with the Catalan thing last year. Whatever the case, Spain is failing to get the fugitive separatists extradited to Spain by its European partners. Belgium and Switzerland have explicitly stated that they won’t do it and the Germans are not showing any enthusiasm either.

    Compare all those travails with Ukrainians being rewarded with financial help, Schengen visa exemption and military assistance after all the civilian bloodletting in Donbass.

    • Replies: @PP
  422. PP says:
    @German_reader

    I know, it’s really quite a sterile exercise, because all that matters is what has happened, not what could have happened.

    But still… that is one of the historical questions that keeps piquing my interest. There are other ones, but this one is especially attractive I must say.

  423. PP says:
    @Mikel

    Whatever the case, Spain is failing to get the fugitive separatists extradited to Spain by its European partners.

    Methinks the Spanish executive branch is in reality quite happy that the Krauts did not extradite that phony, for that would create more problems to have to deal with him in Spain, as a result of the garrote having been discarded long ago. I am in truth convinced that the whole extradition/exile thing is just for show, most likely pre-arranged under the auspices of Brussels.

    Compare all those travails with Ukrainians being rewarded with financial help, Schengen visa exemption and military assistance after all the civilian bloodletting in Donbass.

    This is true, but again, that was pre-decided at the level of Brussels (read: Washington DC) who wanted to fuck Russia in the arse.

  424. @AP

    Settling the issues of Crimea and the Donets Basin would be worth the price of Ukrainian NATO membership to Russia I assume, though there would need to be some other guarantees. Certainly no American missile bases in the Ukraine for instance.

    Crimea gets recognized as part of Russia (perhaps with some form of compensation paid to Ukraine), and the Donets basin chooses either independence or incorporation into Russia.

    But as an American I would still be opposed to the Ukraine joining NATO. Maybe less opposed if we can get rid of the Dweeb State fags along with the Ostjuden who always think the Cossacks are coming.

  425. PP says:
    @Thorfinnsson

    The Ukraine has been very, very badly governed for many years. Worse than any other post-Soviet state it seems.

    Tajikistan has also done quite well in that regard. The local prez-for-life is a former roto-rooter operator or something like that. Which is already quite an achievement for a country populated by over 95% of islamics with an average IQ of 85.

  426. Dmitry says:
    @for-the-record

    When bombed in Syria – the Unz website, the Saker, the people on here – say it is wonderful. And when same demographic is shot charging each week the Gaza fence for the last month, Unz website will publish a lot of strange articles about the terrible massacre and how bad it is, and is some representation of the Anglo-Zionist Empire. (Ideological groups themselves – Hamas, Al Nusra, are literally branches of the same groups through the Muslim Brotherhood).

    Regardless of benefits or costs of these casualties, and of who is responsible, or whether it is fighting terrorism or is a terrible warcrime – I don’t understand when people or such media cannot be consistent on a basic level.

    • Replies: @German_reader
  427. utu says:
    @for-the-record

    Netanyahu is doing to Trump exactly what he did to Putin. He shows that Israel will do as it pleases and nothing will moderate its behavior. He will not postpone bombing Syria on account of V-day parade in Moscow or postpone massacring Palestinians on account of Ivanka visits and embassy opening. To the contrary he will double down and rub it in to show the world Israel is a mad dog as Moshe Dayan said.

    • Replies: @for-the-record
  428. @utu

    Did you watch the blessing by the American preacher? It made me want to puke

    • Replies: @utu
  429. @AP

    I agree but since the quoted part included:

    The presence of European civilizational processes and institutions (Renaissance, Reformation, Counter-Reformation, Uniate, enlightenment, Parliament, Seym, the Magdeburg rights)

    I assumed that the author was trying to include an ideological argument into the thesis, since the author mainly picks out liberal events. I disagree with these kinds of arguments.

    However I don’t think I ever stated that I don’t consider Ukrainians and Bielorussians to be European. I just think that ‘liberal historical processes’ is a bad argument to prove that.

    Mr. Hack stated that the paragraph he quoted contained ‘one of the more salient points’.

    Since the first part of the paragraph merely states that Bielorussians and Ukrainians are different civilisationally from ‘Eurasian’ Russians, which I already know he thinks, I could only believe that he was referring to the second part of the paragraph which I included above.

    • Replies: @AP
  430. utu says:
    @for-the-record

    I did not watch. Most of American preachers makes me want to puke regardless of what they are preaching.

  431. @Dmitry

    Well, you do have a certain point, Hamas is a pretty horrible organization, and the demands those Palestinian demonstrators make (“right of return”) are also quite unreasonable since they would lead to the destruction of Israel if they were accepted.
    But still, the context between Syria (actual risk of the government being overthrown by jihadis) and this Gaza demonstration is quite different…those demonstrations hardly pose any existential risk to Israel. I’m obviously no expert on crowd control, but can it really be claimed that Israel has to kill dozens of people? Couldn’t they at least try to use other, less lethal methods like tear gas or water cannons?
    It’s also a really dumb move by Israel imo, this will be seen as something like the Sharpeville massacre in South Africa and make Israel even more unpopular.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    , @Thorfinnsson
  432. I did not watch. Most of American preachers makes me want to puke regardless of what they are preaching.

    Have a look anyway (in the earlier post), this one is particularly emetic.

  433. LatW says:
    @inertial

    Except in the Baltic it will likely be the job of the NATO contingent

    Er, why should that be the job of the Canucks and Bohunks from NATO? Their job is to hang out at the base and get fed. Do burpees. And I mean that in a sincerely kind way. :)

    You do realize that the Baltic states have their own Security police, Military police, National guards, regular army? That’s plenty for to localize the type of a riot that you’re implying. Besides, most Russian speakers are real sweethearts who have busy lives, but maybe they’ll help us out, too.

    Btw, what do you think the National Guard in Russia is for?

  434. Dmitry says:
    @German_reader

    Gaza demonstration is quite different…those demonstrations hardly pose any existential risk to Israel. I’m obviously no expert on crowd control, but can it really be claimed that Israel has to kill dozens of people? Couldn’t they at least try to use other, less lethal methods like tear gas or water cannons?
    It’s also a really dumb move by Israel imo, this will be seen as something like the Sharpeville massacre in South Africa and make Israel even more unpopular.

    They are sent over to the world’s most militarized border as a kind of human shield tactic, by a military organization itself (Hamas).

    In my view first responsibility is with Hamas (and the guys itself getting shot), who are doing this as a careful plan each week, for over a month, to create martyrs, and with full knowledge of the situation (that even people thousands of kilometers away know).

    However, as for whether Israel has other option to defend the border, than using live firing, or if this is unnecessary – I am no expert and do not know if there was another way. Perhaps there are other ways to defend a border.

    But if Israel thinks there was another option, they would use it, as currently the weekly tactic is a great success for Hamas, and a great cost for Israel.

    Probably Hamas leaders are also eliminating some pressure on themselves each week by removing the kind of frustrated or suicidal young men demographic that could threaten their rule.

    As for moralists and the issue of the siege, and poor living standards in Gaza – I wonder why people who may justifiably be worried of this, do not focus equally on the Egypt border with Gaza (Rafah Crossing).

    • Replies: @German_reader
  435. LatW says:
    @AP

    Any NATO expansion into Ukraine would be accompanied by rejection of further claims on Crimea and Donbas by Ukraine. For the sake of NATO membership and future security it implies, most Ukrainian nationalists would even go along with that.

    That’s a pretty bold assertion. Esp., for someone who doesn’t and isn’t going to live there. Don’t get me wrong, AP, I don’t dislike NATO…. the NATO path might be one option (not ideal, ofc). And there’s no rush to join, either. But that’s a bold assertion. I may be subjective, but lately both nationalists and mainstream parties are discussing the language for what they’re going to call the new operation. The right language needs to be there to make the right decisions. I don’t have much time to watch, but I have not yet heard anyone in the mainstream, much less nationalist, parties talk about abandoning Donbas. There is even talk about “reintegrating the occupied territories”.

    • Replies: @AP
  436. LatW says:
    @Thorfinnsson

    An intermarium bloc would’ve been a good idea. Though it should still exclude the Baltics as indefensible, unless perhaps Sweden and Finland were also drawn in.

    The Intermarium is called Балто-чорноморський союз (the Baltic and Black sea Union) — the name by default says that the Baltics are an integral part of this north to south axis. But you don’t need to worry about it — it won’t be your call. Go have some “Me” time.

    Sweden even though on the Baltic is not an Intermarium country in spirit or history (even though Sweden probably per capita provided the most foreign legionnaires to Azov, except probably Russia and Belarus (or Georgia)). Sweden and Finland can be friendly neighbors but they won’t be part of the decision making group. Besides they have their own Nordic Council. In some ways Eastern Germany could even be closer than Scandinavia (although I like Scandinavia — but just to visit and not be allied to with all sorts of strings attached). Turkey, too, is quite interesting.

    By the way, the Lithuanian president was willing to discuss Intermarium in 1991, but the US and the Western partners rushed in with Partnership for Peace.

  437. @Dmitry

    In my view first responsibility is with Hamas (and the guys itself getting shot), who are doing this as a careful plan each week, for over a month, to create martyrs, and with full knowledge of the situation

    It may look like that to you, but a lot of people in Western countries will see Israeli soldiers gunning down unarmed protestors in cold blood.
    Even if one leaves aside questions of morality and proportionality of force, it’s very stupid behaviour by the Israelis. I really wonder how they imagine the future…they won’t have someone like Trump around forever. The most pro-Israel demographics in the US (white evangelicals) are shrinking, the democratic base is already very sceptical of Israel, and even many liberal Jews will get second thoughts after scenes such as this. I think eventually there will be serious repercussions for Israel.

    • Replies: @PP
    , @Dmitry
  438. Dmitry says:

    To return to Latvia.

    March in Riga (on May Day), against the proposed elimination of bilingual state schooling.

  439. PP says:
    @German_reader

    The most pro-Israel demographics in the US (white evangelicals) are shrinking, the democratic base is already very sceptical of Israel,

    Yep, I made that point earlier on AK’s site; demography is the ultima ratio regum.

    I think eventually there will be serious repercussions for Israel.

    As always. The Jewies always push their chutzpah one notch too far, until it backfires onto them. You Germans know this very well. But the Jewies never learn in this regard, it is their fundamental flaw.

    • Replies: @songbird
  440. Dmitry says:
    @German_reader

    It may look like that to you, but a lot of people in Western countries will see Israeli soldiers gunning down unarmed protestors in cold blood.
    Even if one leaves aside questions of morality and proportionality of force, it’s very stupid behaviour by the Israelis. I really wonder how they imagine the future…they won’t have someone like Trump around forever. The most pro-Israel demographics in the US (white evangelicals) are shrinking, the democratic base is already very sceptical of Israel, and even many liberal Jews will get second thoughts after scenes such as this. I think eventually there will be serious repercussions for Israel.

    It’s correct the last sentence, but it assumes there would be a different way to stop the men from crossing the fence.

    There might be one.

    But we can see this is not believed by Israel and by Hamas – otherwise Hamas would not keep sending the martyrs, and Israel would not keep getting into same trap each week. You must be correct, it is costing Israel a lot each week, until they can find a solution.

    But ‘tear gas’ drone they were using today obviously was not effective.

    -
    -
    -

    The border itself is one of the world’s most dangerous or militarized borders.

    Hamas has two ways to cross it – by tunnels, or by swimming around the side.

    When they crossed in the tunnels in 2014 – they filmed themselves killing 5 soldiers.

    When militants were able to swim around the side, Israel was bombing them on the beach with heavy weapons. It’s kind of surread how close this video must be filmed to the beach in Ashkelon (it must be within a couple of kilometers).

  441. @German_reader

    Israeli troops are not very disciplined. They are teenage conscripts, and Israel has no career NCOs other than technical sergeants.

    So this is about the best you can expect.

    The approach you’re thinking of would be something like what the British Army did in Ulster during the Troubles.

    That approach worked, but it also requires long-service professional soldiers. Something Israel only has in the officer corps and technical branches. Building such a force is expensive and takes quite some time as well.

    Israel’s army is in fact comparable to a small but well defended European country during the Cold War–intended to be small in peacetime but capable of mobilizing quickly and massively in the event of danger. The major change in response to the various intifadas and Hamas provocations was the increase in size of special forces, which have more in common with your GSG-9 than something like the Navy SEALs or Spetsnaz.

    If Israel were wise, which it is not, it would by hook or crook figure out how to incorporate Gaza into Egypt (and get its new Gulf Arab BFFs to pay for their integration into Egypt) and withdraw the from the West Bank. And admittedly the latter would be difficult to swallow domestically for many reasons.

    • Replies: @German_reader
  442. @Thorfinnsson

    If Israel were wise, which it is not, it would by hook or crook figure out how to incorporate Gaza into Egypt

    Question is if the Egyptians would take Gaza, the current military regime is hostile to the Muslim brothers after all and probably likes Hamas neatly contained in Gaza.
    Thanks for your comments about the Israeli army, that makes a lot of sense.

  443. AP says:
    @LatW

    Unfortunately many if not most Ukrainians want to retake these territories. It kind of makes sense – these are territories stolen from their state, after all, and there are people living within them who want to be liberated, although this % is probably small. But it would mean millions of pro-Russian voters, massive reconstruction of overall hostile territory, crime problems, etc.

    NATO and EU integration are not really on the table now. If they were, it might be a very different story. I don’t think many Ukrainian nationalists would be willing to sacrifice joining the Western club just to keep Donbas.

    • Replies: @LatW
  444. AP says:
    @Hyperborean

    I assumed that the author was trying to include an ideological argument into the thesis, since the author mainly picks out liberal events.

    I don’t know if Uniatism, Renaissance or Counter-Reformation were necessarily liberal.

    I just think that ‘liberal historical processes’ is a bad argument to prove that.

    Once can say, any historical processes. Ukraine and Belarus along with the rest of Europe experienced Renaissance, Reformation, Counter-Reformation, Uniate, enlightenment, Parliament, Seym, the Magdeburg rights. You can add that the elites from these places spent centuries going to Jesuit schools. Etc. etc. Russia skipped almost all of these things – it did not join Europe until the time of the Enlightenment. It should be added that the rest of the Orthodox world, in the Balkans, also skipped all these things too as they were living under the Turks. So Ukraine is very different from every other Orthodox country. Huntington was probably not aware of this.

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
  445. songbird says:
    @PP

    I don’t know how much demographics (beyond Muslims) really matters to Jews in the US. They’ve been pretty good at buying political influence and projecting it with Hollywood.
    Of course, all that is up to a point. The US won’t quite be the hegemonic power that it once once, if the average IQ drops below 90.

    • Replies: @PP
  446. Dmitry says:

    Well also I have no knowledge of crowd control – but looking at the video, I can guess how it gets out of control.

    There is a lot of smoke being created by burning of tires, which creates a kind of screen. And very large numbers of people are documented.

    I’m watching these videos below of the conflict on the Israel-Gaza border earlier today.

    Israel claim a video of Palestinians burning down the Kerem Shalom border crossing with Gaza. And then the retaliation.

    Israel claim a Palestinian bomb exploded on the fence .

    In this video at 0:19 some protesters seem to be receiving shots?

    At this video, at 1:29, they are trying to take apart the barbed wire of the fence

    From the Palestinian side – a lot of burning tires on the ground.

    • Replies: @PP
  447. PP says:
    @songbird

    Indeed. I am always amazed at how good they are at manipulating the stupid Gentiles.

    After the US will have become mostly non-White, we will have bigger problems than the Gaza bank to deal with unfortunately. Like mestizo control of the second largest nuclear arsenal. What could possibly go wrong?

  448. PP says:
    @Dmitry

    Thank your for the news report.

    Look, I am not sympathetic to the Jewies in my own country, for their role has been mostly corrosive and deleterious since they have been given equality of rights.

    However in the case of Israel, I must say that it is always pleasant to see the arabs have their filthy arses kicked pretty bad. The Jewies in that part of the world also have such a nice way to say F-you to the Eurofags that they must be commended for that.

    Regarding crowd control, I am impressed by how good they are at it: 50 dead and 2000 injured in the enemy crowd, 0 dead on their side, that is quite a tally.

    • Replies: @utu
    , @Dmitry
    , @Greasy William
  449. utu says:
    @PP

    Indeed. I am always amazed at how good they are at manipulating the stupid Gentiles.

    You were speaking about yourself apparently. They succeeded manipulating you into a nasty case of Islamophobia. Good job, Jews.

  450. Dmitry says:
    @PP

    Regarding crowd control, I don’t know why you are saying they have no knowledge at it. I mean, 50 dead and 2000 injured in the enemy crowd, 0 dead on their side — how better could it get?

    I don’t think there is any military value. Hamas/Gaza can probably produce endless numbers more of these protesters to replace with. They are ‘expendable’. It probably even benefits Hamas to lose some few dozen of these suicidal young men and to direct anger outwards. (Especially in a polygamous society, where you need more numbers of women than men for it to function.)

    At the same time, Israel is losing some diplomatic position and worldwide reputation, each time this event happens (which seems to be weekly, or sometimes more frequent).

    You can see who is winning in ‘cost-benefit’ ratio in this event, from the fact that one side continues repeating it.

    If Hamas did not believe they were benefiting, they would not continue repeating it every week (the first time they started it was in the end of March).

  451. @PP

    what country are you from?

  452. Mikhail says: • Website

    So Ukraine is very different from every other Orthodox country. Huntington was probably not aware of this.

    Another example of svido bullshit. The more honest of Westies acknowledge a Kiev regime controlled Ukraine having the worst aspects of Soviet reared folks going along with the worst aspects of capitalism, coupled with the disproportionate influence of primitive thinking nationalists.

    Dream all you want, post-Soviet Ukraine isn’t the ideal model for the former Communist states of Europe. In line with polls (not Poles) in Ukraine indicating a glum outlook. Once again, Polish rule was far from progressive.

  453. @AP

    Trouble is the “rest of Europe” didn’t experience these things.

    Scandinavia skipped both manorialism and the Renaissance.

    Spain skipped the Enlightenment.

    Jesuits were banned from France.

    There’s perhaps a certain kind of “core Europe” whose boundaries are the Elbe, the Danube, the Tiber, the Pyrenees, the North Sea, the Dannevirke, and the Baltic. England and later Scandinavia (to a lesser extent) were drawn into this core, and the Germans pushed its frontiers east.

    Once you got into slavic lands, including the papist slavs, it was always a different ball game.

    • Replies: @AP
  454. AP says:
    @Thorfinnsson

    Scandinavia skipped both manorialism and the Renaissance.

    Spain skipped the Enlightenment.

    Jesuits were banned from France.

    Spain skipping the Enlightenment just makes it an anachronistic European country. However Spain was also under the Moors for centuries so I think it is not quite European, at least less European than Poland. Jesuits weren’t banned form France until the 1760s. At any rate, European countries went through almost all of these things.

    Once you got into slavic lands, including the papist slavs, it was always a different ball game.

    Depends on which ones. Czechia, Slovakia, and Poland went through them all, as did Ukraine which was a frontier part of Poland. Ukrainians were making their own baroque architecture, they were studying in Latin, they took for granted western-feudal relationships between ruled and rulers, their cities enjoyed Magdeburg rights, etc. etc.

    OTOH, Russia skipped all of these Western phenomena, until the Enlightenment. The Balkans were isolated from these things even a century or so longer than were the Russians.

    • Agree: Mr. Hack
    • Replies: @AP
    , @Thorfinnsson
    , @Mikel
  455. AP says:
    @AP

    Spain skipping the Enlightenment just makes it an anachronistic European country. However Spain was also under the Moors for centuries so I think it is not quite European, at least less European than Poland. Jesuits weren’t banned form France until the 1760s. At any rate, European countries went through almost all of these things.

    A clarification: I mean “culturally Western European” in my comment above.

    • Replies: @Anon
  456. @AP

    East of the Elbe serfdom persisted unusually late. There was even refeudalization in Poland, Bohemia, and the Ukraine.

    Once you exited the German world another strange dynamic appeared. The absence of a native middle class. So instead Germans, Jews, Dutchmen, Swedes, Greeks, and Armenians were imported.

    In fact one can say that it seems like Eastern Europe even went “backwards” in time on two occasions.

    The first being the destruction of the Rus by the Mongols leading to the elimination of the East Slavic literate merchants and craftsmen who were apparently quite widespread by the standards of the time.

    The second being refeudalization.

    As for the trans-Danubian Balkanoid swine they should be deported to Anatolia where they belong. A blot on the map of Europe, and even worse infested with gypsies.

    • Replies: @AP
  457. Anon[198] • Disclaimer says:
    @AP

    Spain didn’t skip the Enlightenment though it did skip the Reformation.

  458. Mikel says:
    @AP

    Ukrainians were making their own baroque architecture, they were studying in Latin, they took for granted western-feudal relationships between ruled and rulers, their cities enjoyed Magdeburg rights, etc. etc.

    So why do you think Ukraine is the poorest country in Europe, apart from Moldova, and has the highest levels of corruption, according to Transparency International?

    My main problem with Ukrainian nationalism is their long history of brutality (I have relatives and friends in Poland), which I don’t think can be dissociated from the way the Donbass “ATO” is being conducted. But the constant blaming of “Moskalys” for Ukraine’s problems also sounds dodgdy to me.

    • Replies: @AP
    , @LatW
  459. Dmitry says:
    @utu

    My main friends in Israel are in a process of planning to leave Israel. Because they don’t like living in a country with Arabs, because of cost of housing, and because Israel is too much of a liberal ‘balagan’ (most popular word of Israelis). My friend came from some boring slums in Saratov, and has qualified as a medical doctor in one of Israel’s best hospitals, and is planning to emigrate with his wife to Canada. And he is quite liberal viewing guy. Yet for them, Israel is too liberal to minority groups.

    I have stranger or weirder tastes for countries than most people, and love the Middle East – but I would not put any long-term plans for Israel unless they would overcome the suicidal liberal (liberal extremist) faction, disable their Supreme Court, and can follow something like a Lieberman Plan.

    • Replies: @for-the-record
  460. AP says:
    @Mikel

    So why do you think Ukraine is the poorest country in Europe, apart from Moldova, and has the highest levels of corruption, according to Transparency International

    Soviets created poverty. Sovok elite ruled after independence.

    In 1890 Ukrainian Galicia was wealthier than Portugal, Russia, Greece, etc. and was about the same as Slovakia.

    My main problem with Ukrainian nationalism is their long history of brutality

    Largely nonsense.

    Brutality was extreme but brief – mid 1940s. And even that has a context. 60,000-100,000 Poles were murdered by Ukrainian nationalists. I think Americans may have incinerated a similar number of German or Japanese civilians in one bombing raid, but they are not condemned as Ukrainian nationalists are. Soviet killed more Polish civilians in the USSR in the 1930s. Etc.

    Here was Ukrainian nationalist “brutality” of 1918:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Ukrainian_People%27s_Republic#Policies_towards_national_minorities_and_inter-ethnic_relations

    which I don’t think can be dissociated from the way the Donbass “ATO” is being conducted.

    You mean way milder than the way Russia did things under similar circumstances?

    I have not forgotten that you have been dishonest about me, btw.

    • Replies: @Mikel
  461. Mikel says:
    @AP

    Soviets created poverty. Sovok elite ruled after independence.

    Same as Belarus, which has twice Ukraine’s per capita GDP. Looks like a partial explanation, at best. I will not compare Ukraine’s economic performance with Russia’s due to the latter’s natural resources.

    And “Sovoks” didn’t rule all the time, unless Yuschenko and Tymoshenko can be categorized as such, in which case I don’t see how Poroshenko and many of the current Maidan rulers could avoid the same epithet.

    More importantly, perhaps, Ukrainian rulers, Sovok-elite or not, have been democratically elected under OSCE-sanctioned conditions by the Ukrainian people itself.

    You mean way milder than the way Russia did things under similar circumstances?

    No, I did not meant milder than anyone else at all. I meant very inhumanely, actually. Regardless of how much worse any others may be.

    I have not forgotten that you have been dishonest about me, btw.

    No, I haven’t been dishonest about you. If I had, I would have no problem apologizing. In fact, not being aware of any, I do apologize for any undue pers0nal attack I may have directed at you.

    But I think that your real grievance with me is not liking what I sometimes write about your country. That is understandable, to some extent, but this is not the Kyiv Post. You’ll have to put up with my humble opinions and with much worse than that from some other people.

    • Replies: @Mikhail
    , @AP
  462. Mikhail says: • Website

    In 1890 Ukrainian Galicia was wealthier than Portugal, Russia, Greece, etc. and was about the same as Slovakia.

    So what. Smaller areas can have an easier time at such. You’re like some culturally insecure folks babbling on about their (as they see it) civilization being the center of advancement with great contributions – something Ukrainian Galicia has comparatively lacked.

  463. Mikhail says: • Website
    @Mikel

    He’s arguably the most anti-Russian of regular commenters at these threads, while professing differently.

    AP has a habit of ducking facts and fact based opinions that very much debunk the kind of anti-Russian BS that he has repeatedly peddled. See:

    http://www.unz.com/akarlin/no-victory/#comment-2328482

    • Replies: @Mikel
  464. Mikel says:
    @Mikhail

    He’s arguably the most anti-Russian of regular commenters at these threads, while professing differently.

    I would disagree with that. He’s capable of giving credit where credit is due but he also seems to have some very soft spots, of which he may not be entirely aware, as shown by his conflation of “dishonesty” with criticism.

    • Replies: @Mikhail
    , @AP
  465. AP says:
    @Mikel

    “Soviets created poverty. Sovok elite ruled after independence.”

    Same as Belarus, which has twice Ukraine’s per capita GDP.

    Belarus has a patriotic, native elite. Ukraine inherited a comprador elite. Yanukovich wasn’t even an ethnic Ukrainian.

    And “Sovoks” didn’t rule all the time, unless Yuschenko and Tymoshenko can be categorized as such, in which case I don’t see how Poroshenko and many of the current Maidan rulers could avoid the same epithet.

    Ukraine experienced its highest economic growth and had its highest post-Soviet per capita GDP under Yushchenko/Tymoshenko. But they were held back by their own squabbles and by the fact that ~30% of the country were Sovoks.

    The current government appears to be the least non-Ukrainian one. Unsurprisingly, we see massive improvement in the military, consistent economic growth in spite of the war and trade issues with the largest neighbor, and unambiguous turn westward which means a reorientation towards a more modern economy. Ethnic Ukrainian areas, rather than Soviet relics, are becoming the new center of gravity.

    All is not great, of course – corruption remains dismal, unfortunately.

    More importantly, perhaps, Ukrainian rulers, Sovok-elite or not, have been democratically elected under OSCE-sanctioned conditions by the Ukrainian people itself.

    Thank God a large proportion of the Sovoks now have their own state and no longer vote in Ukrainian elections. Their inclusion in Ukraine had a very deleterious effect on Ukrainian elections.

    No, I did not meant milder than anyone else at all. I meant very inhumanely, actually. Regardless of how much worse any others may be

    It was sarcasm.

    When Western European countries are confronted with armed terrorists, local and foreign, operating out of heavily populated areas within their borders, they can then be compared favorably or unfavorably with the behavior of the Ukrainian state.

    In the meantime, we can compare Ukraine to states that have had similar situations: Russia in Chechnya; Syria; Israel; Croatia; Yugoslavia. Ukraine has behaved the most humanely out of these states. It has not behaved perfectly but better than all examples; we do not know if western Europeans would have behaved as humanely.

    No, I haven’t been dishonest about you.

    Yes, you were.

    It is demonstrated here:

    https://www.unz.com/akarlin/no-solzhenitsyn-did-not-ask-the-us-to-nuke-the-ussr/#comment-2316946

    I had thought and expected better of you, and was disappointed.

    • Replies: @Mikel
  466. Mikhail says: • Website
    @Mikel

    Likewise with his use of “dumb”, which in reality is a cover for not being able to address particulars like these:

    http://www.unz.com/akarlin/no-victory/#comment-2328482

    Show me someone more anti-Russian among regular commenters. He has the suggestively bigoted culturally and humanely mindset that simplistically cherry picks to conform with his faulty biases.

    On par with the Kiev regime not wanting to see the World Cup televised in Russia, along with seeking to limit travel between Ukraine and Russia:

    https://www.fondsk.ru/news/2018/05/13/ukrainskij-nacizm-kak-forma-nenavisti-46127.html

    Indoctrination.

  467. Mikhail says: • Website
    @Mikel

    Excellent points which the likes of AP duck.

  468. AP says:
    @Thorfinnsson

    East of the Elbe serfdom persisted unusually late. There was even refeudalization in Poland, Bohemia, and the Ukraine.

    Once you exited the German world another strange dynamic appeared. The absence of a native middle class. So instead Germans, Jews, Dutchmen, Swedes, Greeks, and Armenians were imported.

    True. There were certainly differences, but these were still basically Western places, just Western places with many lords and peasants but few burghers. But the relationship between nobles and kings, town rights (even if towns were settled largely by non-”natives”), arts, architecture, schooling was typically western in Poland and Ukraine, unlike in Russia.

    Also there was not a complete absence of a native middle class. Towns were not fully Jewish, German or Armenian. Ethnic Ukrainians in Lviv had this organization, for example:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lviv_Dormition_Brotherhood

    I think the towns were about 30% Jewish and another 20% Armenian, German or whatever.

  469. LatW says:
    @Mikel

    So why do you think Ukraine is the poorest country in Europe, apart from Moldova

    There’s something intrinsically manipulative about this phrase “poorest country in Europe” whenever it is aimed at any former USSR country. Not a remark at you, Mikel, since very many people use it — it is inappropriate to use it. Former SSRs should only be compared to other former SSRs within the same geographic / cultural domain (except maybe we can compare with the Kazakhs, too). (Russia stands on its own due to its size and resources, although there are interesting, similar trends there, too). And what does Moldova have to prove to anyone anyway.

    Speaking of Belarus – yes, there are many things to like, but it is in some ways easier to rule with an iron fist. There is more order and discipline. It is much more difficult to govern a big, pluralistic country such as Ukraine (with many oligarchic and ethnic groupings), and a very open press on top of it, that criticizes, scrutinizes the government where it’s needed and where it’s not needed (hindering in fact). Belarus is a much smaller and more homogeneous population, it has a big friend.

    • Replies: @Mikel
  470. AP says:
    @Thorfinnsson

    Catalan nationalism equivalent to Ukrainian nationalism.

    Nonsense.

    Ukrainian language is more different from Russian than Catalan is from Spanish.
    Ukrainian nationalism is largely right-wing; Catalan nationalism is largely left-wing.
    Ukrainian nationalism aspires to right-wing Poland; Catalan nationalism wants to a Sweden or whatever on the Mediterranean.

    • Replies: @for-the-record
  471. AP says:
    @Mikel

    Yes, he does have a very good case with the Ukrainian example. Since 2014 Ukraine has killed more of its own civilians in Donbass than Israel has killed Palestinians in that same time period.

    Because Ukraine has chosen not to unilaterally surrender to forces occupying populated areas and engaged in large-scale military activities.

    But lets compare.

    Since 2014 there have been 2,800 civilians killed in Donbas (a small percentage of whom were killed by fire from Donbas rebels).

    Intifada of 2000-2005 had 2,700-3,100 Palestinian civilians killed. So higher.

    First Chechen war (Yeltsin) had 30,000-40,000 civilians killed (according to Russian state).
    Second Chechen War (Putin) had 25,000 killed.

    There are 1.4 million people in Chechnya vs. 6 million in Donbas.

    Croatia – 8,000 Croat civilians killed, 7,000 Serbs killed
    Bosnia – 30,000 Bosniak civilians killed, 4,100 Serb civilians killed, 2,500 Croat civilians killed

    Note that all of these places have far fewer people than does the Donbas’ 6 million population.

    So in both relative and absolute terms the Kiev government is far more humane than any other post-1990 government has been with respect to civilian casualties in difficult urban warfare.

    In a way, the Ukrainians are lucky to be fighting Russians and pro-Russians because that is giving them a carte blanche that no other European nation would enjoy under similar circumstances

    Remind me how many civilians were killed by Europeans and Americans in Iraq and Afghanistan, which weren’t even American or European territory?

    • Replies: @LatW
  472. AP says:
    @Mikel

    No, when you were dishonest you were dishonest. As I said, I was disappointed because you seem to be an honorable man and as such ought to be above such behavior.

    • Replies: @Mikel
  473. LatW says:
    @AP

    Unfortunately many if not most Ukrainians want to retake these territories.

    Any normal population would feel that way (although there are differing voices). As much as I hate to see more men die (not to even mention the civilians), the truth is that infrastructure can be rebuilt and more men can be born. But territory can not be easily regained. Those are just the hard facts of life. Impossible choice to make… And giving up those territories would create a constant threat of further incursion, into Kharkiv, into Mariupol.

    there are people living within them who want to be liberated, although this % is probably small.

    Even if small, they are still there, not everyone has fled. And they are writing, asking the sons for help. There are young women, future mothers who carry the Ukrainian genetic code. Children, elderly, Ukrainian speakers. When the fighters walked into some of the villages, they found abandoned libraries with books in Ukrainian. Another option would be to try to move those people out. I know some families moved to Zakarpathia and just walked into some of those old homes. It is heartbreaking and of course would not be a solution for everyone. It absolutely dismayed me when the Baltic governments decided not to prioritize Ukrainians as refugees back in 2014.

    But it would mean millions of pro-Russian voters, massive reconstruction of overall hostile territory, crime problems, etc.

    You are right – the problems would multiply tenfold. Millions of voters would be added. Either way, it is all very dramatic and challenging. The point I just wanted to make is the one above about giving up territory (no agitation, just sobering reality).

    NATO and EU integration are not really on the table now. If they were, it might be a very different story. I don’t think many Ukrainian nationalists would be willing to sacrifice joining the Western club just to keep Donbas.

    I haven’t yet heard anyone in, let’s say, Svoboda, or other nationalists say that they’d trade Donbas for NATO. It’s a bold (but intelligent assumption), though. The National Corps will of course never support that, but they are marginal (unless they could pull off a coup which is highly doubtful). Joking. :)

    There are many problems here. Even if NATO integration is not on the table, as you say (although my instincts say they’ll come, they always do!), the US is currently coming in by driving political demands first – in a way, that’s even worse! – why should Ukraine be listening to these demands (unless they benefit Ukraine itself)? Think of the absurdity of this – political instructions, limited assistance, and no guarantees of any kind! Ofc, there’s the IMF issue, but still – this is bigger than that. And frankly – it’s borderline unethical for the US to lecture Ukraine… I saw some program where the US sent a bunch of military women to a national guard camp in Ukraine and they did one of those inclusive diversity circles that they do everywhere in the EE. Then this overweight female “soldier” mentioned how impressed she was about the shape Ukrainians are in… duh (at first, it enraged me, but then it just made me really, really sad – maybe they meant well?). I don’t know, maybe she’s a good sniper… They’re running diversity circles 100kms from the frontline where young boys are dying! In 2014, they were even undernourished, lacking blankets, night vision, helmets… Turchinov was asking for help, it took forever for any help to arrive…

    Another problem, ofc, is the changing political and demographic landscape of the NATO countries. The Eastern Europeans will soon have nothing in common with the US, maybe even the UK – the potential pool of similar populations is shrinking (EE can’t be genuinely allied with either alt-right, far left, not even with the neocons in the long term (dangerous), the middle – the normal, politically measured populations seem to be shrinking). Something weird is brewing in the Democratic party: https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/congress/liberal-ideas-move-fringe-front-burner-democrats-n873516

    These are mainly domestic issues, but do you want Ukraine to be allied to a country that is led by another communist (the next one might be even worse than the previous one!)? The Ukrainians that I know are way more freedom loving than that!

    Either way, you’re right that the focus now needs to be on building up the economy and the strengthening of the military. And on charity.

  474. Mikel says:
    @AP

    Circumstances are never identical but Western European countries have indeed confronted armed terrorists, local and foreign, operating out of heavily populated areas within their borders. For example, the UK and Spain. Not even backward Spain under the late Franco regime resorted to indiscriminate shelling of separatists areas and leveling of residential buildings.

    All of the countries that you are choosing to compare Ukraine to (odd choices, given its claimed aspirations) have been internationally denounced, sanctioned and even forced to hand over their war criminals, like Croatia. Nothing of the like is envisioned for Ukraine. But we’ll see.

    I also think that it is pointless to compare body counts in the different scenarios that you present. It was not for lack of will that things didn’t get even more bloody for civilians. At some point after the initial hostilities Donbass was turned into a no-fly area for the Ukrainian Air Force so civilians were at least spared the horror of being bombed from the air. And shortly before the most populated areas of Donbass were about to be overrun by the Ukrainian army, the Kremlin stepped up its support for the rebels, forcing Ukraine to the Minsk-I cease fire.

    The killing of civilians in Donbass was mostly collateral to military operations and not as vicious as in Yugoslavia, I’ll give you that.

    • Replies: @AP
  475. LatW says:
    @AP

    Do you think there is any truth to the rumors that missiles were used from the Russian territory, such as the demonic Grad missiles?

    • Replies: @AP
  476. AP says:
    @Mikel

    Circumstances are never identical but Western European countries have indeed confronted armed terrorists, local and foreign, operating out of heavily populated areas within their borders. For example, the UK and Spain.

    Not thousands of them in control of large areas.

    Not even backward Spain under the late Franco regime resorted to indiscriminate shelling of separatists areas and leveling of residential buildings.

    Was late Franco regime confronted with separatists controlling densely populated urban areas and attacking Francoist forces from there?

    And shortly before the most populated areas of Donbass were about to be overrun by the Ukrainian army,

    Which would have ended the war and the bloodshed.

    the Kremlin stepped up its support for the rebels, forcing Ukraine to the Minsk-I cease fire.

    Preserving low-level constant bloodshed.

    All of the countries that you are choosing to compare Ukraine to (odd choices, given its claimed aspirations) have been internationally denounced, sanctioned and even forced to hand over their war criminals, like Croatia

    Neither Russia nor Israel were punished for internal actions. Croatia is in NATO/EU. Ukraine can one day hand over the people who didn’t warn civilians to avoid the Luhansk buildings being bombed.

    • Replies: @Anon
  477. AP says:
    @LatW

    I don’t know such things but I would not be surprised at all.

    Apparently the missile strikes from rebel-held territory that killed 30 or so civilians in Ukraine-controlled Mariupol were done by Russian troops (they weren’t targeting civilians, they missed their target) :

    http://www.kansascity.com/news/nation-world/world/article210790044.html

    Ironically one of the civilians killed was a pro-Russian activist in Mariupol.

    • Replies: @Mikhail
  478. Mikel says:
    @AP

    I am honestly unaware of when I was dishonest (forgive the redundancy). The link you have provided only shows to me that I got fed up after you accused me of lying and put an end to the conversation. You were also trying to lecture me on the usage of a word that I know since childhood. If your mother tongue, as I presume, is Slavic you’re most unlikely to be in a position to do that.

    I have been accused in the past of making left-handed remarks that irritate people. Knowing that certain things can get you triggered, I’ll try to avoid that. I value your contribution to the debates. But you know what I think about the events in Donbass and I’m not planning to self-censor me about that subject.

    • Replies: @Anon
    , @AP
  479. Anon[198] • Disclaimer says:
    @AP

    Was late Franco regime confronted with separatists controlling densely populated urban areas and attacking Francoist forces from there?

    Ukrosituation is more similar to the Val d’Aran invasion supported from France which was counteracted by prompt and heavy force. Of course the Red invasions and ongoing guerilla after the Second World War enjoyed much less support among the populace than pro-Russian Ukrainian separatists.

    Or the situation is somewhat similar to the Texan War of Independence, where Anglos->Russians and Mexicans->Ukrainians. But the languages and histories are too divergent in that scenario.

    • Replies: @AP
  480. Anon[198] • Disclaimer says:
    @Mikel

    Isn’t the internet wonderful; Spaniards (I think) and Ukrainians argue over insults dependent on the intricacies of English phrasing.

  481. Mikel says:
    @LatW

    Yes, let’s avoid terms with offensive connotations such as “poor”.

    But we are approaching the 30th anniversary of the dissolution of the USSR. Some former SSRs are already very far away from having the lowest per capita income in Europe. At some point having belonged to the Soviet Union (or having been one of its satellites, not sure which is worse) will have to cease to be an explanation for lack of progress. Perhaps much more relevant is what percentage of the population still maintains “Soviet” mentality and attitudes, I think.

    • Replies: @AP
  482. AP says:
    @Anon

    I imagine that if a locals joined by a bunch of Cuban communists took over a large Spanish city in, say, 1968, declaring a Communist state and proceeded to de-Catholicize and de-nationalize the place, Franco would be a lot bloodier than Poroshenko.

    • Replies: @Gerard2
  483. AP says:
    @Mikel

    The link you have provided only shows to me that I got fed up after you accused me of lying

    I wrote:

    “But referring to this as the Luhansk square bombing, as if the government was just targeting the square so it could kill civilians, is to repeat a lie”

    To which you responded:

    “Calling someone a liar”

    As I stated, “you repeated a lie. Which you did do. I did not call you a liar. You could have repeated the lie out of ignorance, after all. ”

    I suppose this is trivial but it speaks to integrity. I give you the benefit of the doubt and assume it’s something you picked up in some Russian news forum, not your own invention.

    You were also trying to lecture me on the usage of a word that I know since childhood.

    You spoke English since childhood?

    Similar words may have different nuances in different languages.

    If your mother tongue, as I presume, is Slavic you’re most unlikely to be in a position to do that.

    I was born in and grew up in an English-speaking country. On admission tests I scored in the under first percentile in English. I know this language. In English, massacre refers specifically to a deliberate mass murder. For example, what UPA did to Poles in western Ukraine is called the “Volynia massacre.” According to the facts, this was not the case at the Odessa Trade Union building. Neutral sources such as wikipedia do not refer to that as a massacre. Only Russian nationalist sources do that. And you too, for some reason.

    Here is a list of massacres for comparison purposes:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_events_named_massacres

    • Replies: @Mikel
    , @Mikhail
  484. AP says:
    @Mikel

    At some point having belonged to the Soviet Union (or having been one of its satellites, not sure which is worse) will have to cease to be an explanation for lack of progress.

    There has been some progress in Ukraine. It just hasn’t overcome the decline of the early 90s yet.

    (There has been improvement since 2015).

    Perhaps much more relevant is what percentage of the population still maintains “Soviet” mentality and attitudes, I think.

    Correct. Fortunately the most Soviet parts have left. In a sense Ukraine started in 2014. Since then – steady improvement after 2 years decline, despite war and trade disruption; some real reforms; massive military improvement as one would expect from a state that finally takes itself seriously. Corruption remains a problem and the break was not as clean or total as would be ideal, but it is still a real difference.

  485. Mikel says:
    @AP

    Based on many posts I have read from you on this website, I respect your judgement. So I am trying to understand your thought processes here but it’s proving to be quite a difficult challenge, honestly.

    referring to this as the Luhansk square bombing, as if the government was just targeting the square so it could kill civilians, is to repeat a lie

    I have no idea if the decision came from the Ukrainian government, some military official or just the pilot himself. But the fact is that they threw a missile against a civilian administration building being used by the parallel civilian administration set up by the rebels and located in a central Lugansk square frequented by civilians at the time of the bombing in the early morning hours.

    How anyone could expect such an action not to result in the carnage of civilians that ensued is beyond me.

    I am also unable to understand what on earth makes you take issue with my rather aseptic description of this action as “the Luhansk square bombing”. Regardless of how Russian news fora regarded this attack, which has nothing to do with my choice of English words to refer to it, saying that it is a lie shows that your general good judgment can sometimes get seriously blurred, given the circumstances.

    Similar words may have different nuances in different languages.

    Quite true. Being reasonably fluent in six languages, that was one of the crucial lessons I learnt a very long time ago.

    But in this particular case you are just assuming with no reasoned basis that the loan word massacre (derived from French, a language that I also speak) has a different usage in English and in my co-native Spanish. Not so, really. In both languages you can even use it to describe the defeat of a sports team at the hands of another. It’s also very easy to prove that you are factually wrong in your limited definition of the word in English. See fourth example in Merriam-Webster: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/massacre

    On May 2nd, 2014 two groups of people, including individuals armed with assault weapons, spent hours fighting with each other on the streets of Odessa in the practical absence of any police force, who were either convinced to stay idle or were unable to contain the mobs. Even if one accepts your version of events and considers the Trade Unions building fire purely accidental, with the incendiary cocktails thrown by both groups at each other around that building not having truly murderous intentions, the conclusion that this succession of events ended in a massacre of 48 people can hardly be described as a manipulation.

    And with all this I guess I have exhausted my willingness to continue discussing our respective choice of words regrading this argument and what they reveal or fail to reveal about our deeper intentions.

    • Replies: @AP
  486. Mikhail says: • Website
    @AP

    I was born in and grew up in an English-speaking country. On admission tests I scored in the under first percentile in English. I know this language. In English, massacre refers specifically to a deliberate mass murder. For example, what UPA did to Poles in western Ukraine is called the “Volynia massacre.” According to the facts, this was not the case at the Odessa Trade Union building. Neutral sources such as wikipedia do not refer to that as a massacre. Only Russian nationalist sources do that. And you too, for some reason.

    Because it was a massacre, as per the very definition of the word:

    https://www.google.com/search?source=hp&ei=5fr7WvaUK4fs5gLBzLO4Bg&q=webster%27s+definition+of+massacre&oq=definition+of+a+massacre&gs_l=psy-ab.1.1.0j0i22i10i30k1j0i22i30k1l3j0i22i10i30k1j0i22i30k1l4.990.5658.0.8069.24.24.0.0.0.0.83.1539.24.24.0..2..0…1.1.64.psy-ab..0.24.1536…46j0i131k1j0i46k1.0.BZ4ycgzG-So

    So much for your stated admission test results.

    • Replies: @AP
  487. Mikhail says: • Website
    @AP

    Forces fighting the Donbass rebels have blatantly committed acts of aggression against the civilian population, inclusive of hitting areas where there was no sign of a rebel presence.

    Kiev regime forces are responsible for far more civilian deaths than the Donbass rebels.

  488. Mikhail says: • Website

    Regarding the false comments made concerning the Ukrainian, Russian and Polish languages:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutual_intelligibility

    https://www.google.com/search?source=hp&ei=DP37WvzyMoXv5gLkuYqABg&q=polish+language+closest+to&oq=polish+language+closest+to&gs_l=psy-ab.13..0i22i30k1.2736.8909.0.10813.26.26.0.0.0.0.76.1549.26.26.0..2..0…1.1.64.psy-ab..0.25.1490…0j0i131k1j33i160k1j33i21k1.0.tV4INyCTj_g

  489. AP says:
    @Mikel

    So do you admit that I blamed your for repeating something, rather lying yourself?

    I am trying to understand your thought processes here but it’s proving to be quite a difficult challenge, honestly.

    Due to biases, perhaps?

    “referring to this as the Luhansk square bombing, as if the government was just targeting the square so it could kill civilians, is to repeat a lie”

    I have no idea if the decision came from the Ukrainian government, some military official or just the pilot himself. But the fact is that they threw a missile against a civilian administration building being used by the parallel civilian administration set up by the rebels and located in a central Lugansk square frequented by civilians

    So as you now admit they targeted the building (a government building controlled by separatists) and not adjacent the square (a civilian area). This is what news reports state.

    If the Capital building was taken over by the anti-government fighters (rebel soldiers were injured inside the building during the attack) and the government decided to bomb it, this would seem to be a legitimate act. The crime was in not warning the civilian population to stay far away from the building, not in bombing the rebel-controlled building.

    You did not call it the Luhansk government building bombing but the Luhansk square bombing. This implies that the target or focus of the attack was the square and not the building.

    When discussing sensitive matters precision is important.

    But in this particular case you are just assuming with no reasoned basis that the loan word massacre (derived from French, a language that I also speak) has a different usage in English and in my co-native Spanish. Not so, really. In both languages you can even use it to describe the defeat of a sports team at the hands of another.

    Correct, but that case would not apply here. It was not the defeat of a sports team. Nor was it a deliberate act of mass murder, the definitions of massacre according to the Oxford English dictionary.

    See fourth example in Merriam-Webster: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/massacre

    The fourth example, “an act of complete destruction,” would not be applicable in this case. You were referring to the people inside when you used the word massacre, not the building. The people were mostly saved. Nor were you referring to the total loss of an abstract idea (the “massacre of the Russian Idea in Odessa”). Instead, you incorrectly used the word massacre to refer to the deaths of the 42 people in the fire.

    So by no definition was this a “massacre” as you attempted to use it. This is why neutral sources don’t use that word.

    Again, when discussing sensitive topics, precision is important.

    On May 2nd, 2014 two groups of people, including individuals armed with assault weapons, spent hours fighting with each other on the streets of Odessa in the practical absence of any police force, who were either convinced to stay idle or were unable to contain the mobs.

    Correct.

    Even if one accepts your version of events and considers the Trade Unions building fire purely accidental, with the incendiary cocktails thrown by both groups at each other around that building not having truly murderous intentions

    This is the version from the UN report and the way it is summarized in the wikipedia entry.

    the conclusion that this succession of events ended in a massacre of 48 people can hardly be described as a manipulation.

    Massacre:

    Oxford English dictionary:

    * An indiscriminate and brutal slaughter of many people.

    ‘reports of massacres by government troops’

    * Deliberately and brutally kill (many people)

    ‘thousands were brutally massacred by soldiers’

    * the act or an instance of killing a number of usually helpless or unresisting human beings under circumstances of atrocity or cruelty witnessed the massacre of a boatload of refugees

    ::::::::::::

    None of those definitions apply in the case of the 42 people in the trade union building. Based on UN reports the building was not set on fire for the purpose of killing large numbers of people and the crowd outside was not in general focused on doing that – indeed, after the building caught fire the crowd (with a few exceptions) was mostly trying to rescue the people inside.

    Again, precision is important. You are making false accusations of deliberate murder against people.

    • Replies: @Mikel
  490. AP says:
    @Mikhail

    To repeat: you are too dumb, uneducated and boring for me to bother replying to your failed attempts at “arguments.”

    As you can see, I addressed each of Mikel’s posts. Mikel is neither dumb, nor uneducated, nor boring. You, on the other hand, are all of these things. I reply to him, but not to you. No matter how desperately and frequently you try to reply to my posts.

    Good day.

    • Replies: @Mikhail
  491. @Dmitry

    Yet for them, Israel is too liberal to minority groups.

    Not sure he’ll find Canada to be very different in that regard.

  492. @AP

    Ukrainian language is more different from Russian than Catalan is from Spanish.

    This I highly, highly doubt. In many respects Catalan is still closer to French to Spanish, and it certainly was in the “old” days (when it was largely the same as what is now called “Provencal”).

    While I respect your Slavic language skills, I very much doubt your Romance language ones!

    • Replies: @AP
    , @Dmitry
  493. Mikel says:
    @AP

    If you fire a missile with the apparent intention of hitting a building but the device explodes in the square underneath, with all fatalities caused in that square, there is nothing manipulative about referring to that episode as the bombing of the square rather than the bombing of the building. Likewise, I have no idea what the rebels were aiming at when they killed dozens of civilians at a Mariupol bus stop. Almost assuredly not that group of civilians. But that is what they actually hit so I would equally refer to that episode as the shelling of the Mariupol bus stop.

    The bloody Odessa clashes didn’t end up with an even higher amount of victims for lack of want among participants on both sides. It might be true that the fire that caused the majority of the dead was the consequence of a mix of recklessness, stupidity and brutality (unfortunately, I don’t think we’ll ever know the full details) but using the term massacre for the outcome of the whole set of events is again not an attempt to distort any known facts.

    And with this I have definitely exhausted my ability to continue discussing the topic of alternative word choices for these ghastly events.

    • Replies: @AP
  494. AP says:
    @Mikel

    Likewise, I have no idea what the rebels were aiming at when they killed dozens of civilians at a Mariupol bus stop. Almost assuredly not that group of civilians. But that is what they actually hit so I would equally refer to that episode as the shelling of the Mariupol bus stop.

    I appreciate that you are consistent, but I think that both labels are inaccurate because in each case they imply something (targeting of the square and the bus stop) that was not the case. Ukrainians who refer to the Mariupol bombing as the bus stop bombing are also being manipulative.

    The bloody Odessa clashes didn’t end up with an even higher amount of victims for lack of want among participants on both sides.

    Clearly the crowd outside was trying to save, and did save, many people in the burning building. If the intent was to kill large numbers if people large numbers of people would have been killed and massacre would indeed have been an accurate word.

    It might be true that the fire that caused the majority of the dead was the consequence of a mix of recklessness, stupidity and brutality (unfortunately, I don’t think we’ll ever know the full details)

    This is what the evidence shows.

    but using the term massacre for the outcome of the whole set of events is again not an attempt to distort any known facts.

    I cannot comment on the personal intent of each person using that word but the word is clearly inaccurate because massacre requires deliberate intent to kill large numbers of people. So, Volynia massacre for what UPA did in western Ukraine in the 1940s, Orlando massacre for the nightclub mass shooting, Mi Lai massacre for what some Americans did in Viet Nam. This fire was not a massacre according to the definitions of the term.

  495. AP says:
    @for-the-record

    Maybe, I admit I am far from being an expert on Romance languages.

    In terms of lexical distance (% of words that are the same in both languages), Catalan is much closer to Spanish than Ukrainian is to Russian:

    However there are also the issues of grammar and pronunciation, not covered in the chart. These may place Catalan a lot further from Spanish than vocabulary would suggest.

    Provencal itself appears to be closer to Spanish than it is to French, in terms of vocabulary.

    One of my relatives studied in Spain for a semester and visited Barcelona. They said that Catalan seemed to be closer to Spanish than Ukrainian is to Russian. But that’s just one person’s impression.

    • Replies: @for-the-record
    , @Dmitry
  496. Mikhail says: • Website
    @AP

    You carry-on like an ethno-religious chauvinist, who spews deceit, while regularly ducking facts and fact based opinions, refuting your BS.

    One of numerous samples:

    http://www.unz.com/akarlin/no-victory/#comment-2328482

    If anyone here is dumb, it’s you, with your put mildly suspect claims that Polish is closer to Ukrainian than Ukrainian is to Russian and likening the Russian-Ukrainian relationship to that of Britain and India.

    And yes, what happened at the aforementioned Odessa building qualifies as a “massacre”, as does the word “coup”, relative to the overthrow of Yanukovych. Your spin to the contrary has been most unconvincing. You omit the other aspects pertaining to the group which violently chased the victims of the Odessa building massacre.

    • Replies: @AP
  497. Mikhail says: • Website

    Concerning the matter of polls and Ukraine

    https://russian-faith.com/news/data-show-ukrainians-far-prefer-russian-over-nationalist-churches-n1019

    Ukrainian and Western media constantly publish statistical “evidence” about how Ukrainians are abandoning the Church loyal to Moscow in favor of the Church loyal to Kiev. They suggest that the Church loyal to Moscow functions as a dwindling, secretly pro-Russian, political actor that fewer and fewer Ukrainians are duped by.

    But do these polls accurately represent which church has the most followers? Facts from everyday life in Ukraine suggest otherwise. It is quite possible that in politically repressed Ukraine, people are answering pollsters one way, and doing something completely different on Sunday mornings.

    Something else might be at play, having to do with suspect polling in the form of inaccurate sampling and/or outright fudging. In the US, I’ve come across numerous Ukrainians expressing a different view from the kind preferred in US establishment media and think tank circles.

  498. @AP

    Well, here’s some common vocabulary, I’ll let you be the judge:

    English — Spanish — Catalan — Provencal — French

    eat — comer — menjar — manjar –manger

    table — mesa — taula — taula — table

    pretty/handsome — hermoso — bell — bèl — beau

    shoulder — hombro — espatlla — espatla — épaule

    boil — hervir — bullir — bolir — bouillir

    speak — hablar — parlar — parlar — parler

    cheese — queso — formatge — formatge — fromage

    In terms of overall vocabulary, the large part is of course etymologically shared (common Latin origin) for Spanish/Catalan/Provencal /French.

    • Replies: @AP
  499. AP says:
    @Mikhail

    To repeat: you are too dumb, uneducated and boring for me to bother replying to your failed attempts at “arguments.”

    You are even too dumb to get the hint that I am not interested in any dialogue with you, yet you attempt to start one repeatedly.

    Anyone wishing that I address something you wrote, feel free to reply, and I will address them. But not you.

    So far, no takers. Nobody bothers to repeat your questions or concerns. You are too boring for everyone else, too.

    • Replies: @Mikhail
  500. AP says:
    @for-the-record

    With respect to those words, Spanish certainly stands apart.

    I found this interesting discussion:

    https://www.quora.com/Does-Catalan-share-more-similar-linguistic-features-with-Spanish-or-French

    Consensus seems to be that it is somewhere in the middle.

    A table:

    Ukrainian and Russian have 62% of words in common. Ukrainian and Polish have 70% of words in common.

    Catalan and Spanish are a lot closer, but no numbers given.

    In terms of lexical distance (not grammar, or pronunciation) Ukrainian and Russian are comparable to Portuguese and French.

    • Replies: @Mikhail
    , @for-the-record
  501. Mikhail says: • Website

    No one is bothering to support your bogus contentions you charlatan. I’ve substantively refuted your fallacies.

    I don’t care if you don’t directly reply to me. I’m just setting the record straight concerning the BS you peddle. The real reason you don’t directly reply is because you’ve been soundly debunked. Once again noting:

    http://www.unz.com/akarlin/no-victory/#comment-2328482

    Feel free to babble on dumbo.

  502. Art Best says:

    The author Anatoly Karlin is LYING.

    1) Russia’s ally in Syria, the Iranians, are NOT Arabs like Anatoly Karlin says.

    2) Russia’s ally in Syria, the Assad administration are NOT Sunni Arabs like the Arabs who fought the Soviet forces in Afghanistan. Anatoly Karlin LIES by conflating Sunni and Shia Arabs who are enemies.

    3) Russia’s ally in Syria, the Lebanese Shia Hezbollah are NOT Sunni Arabs like the Arabs who fought the Soviet forces in Afghanistan. Anatoly Karlin LIES by conflating Sunni and Shia Arabs who are enemies.

    4) Israelis are immoral, ill-willed creatures who are internationally recognized as invaders who are oppressing an indigenous people known as the Palestinians. By supporting Israel through economic trade, and enabling Israel to attack his allies with impunity, Putin and the Russians are siding with evil. The same evil, namely the Jews (the Bolsheviks) who raped, tortured and killed over 20 million Russians! Therefore Putin and the Russians are not only evil as evinced through their alliance and cooperation with the Jews, but the Russians are also STUPID and SELF-DEFEATING for succoring their own butchers.

    Putin? Not so much. Putin and the Russian oligarchs are JEWS.

    Putin is a Jew. His mother’s surname was Shalomovitch, as mentioned in the first edition of Putin’s biography but later deleted from subsequent editions. Roman Abramovitch himself said that Putin could get Israeli citizenship as an ethnic Jew anytime he wanted: http://aanirfan.blogspot.com.tr/2018/02/trump-putin-kosher-nostra.html?m=1

    Some links relating Putin’s Jewish ancestry, both from the right and left sides of the political spectrum:

  503. Mikhail says: • Website
    @AP

    Ukrainian and Russian have 62% of words in common. Ukrainian and Polish have 70% of words in common.

    What you post as supporting evidence isn’t clearly indicated (as in specifically highlighted) to support such. One reasonably wonders how accurate that claim is given the preponderance stating differently:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutual_intelligibility

    https://www.google.com/search?source=hp&ei=DP37WvzyMoXv5gLkuYqABg&q=polish+language+closest+to&oq=polish+language+closest+to&gs_l=psy-ab.13..0i22i30k1.2736.8909.0.10813.26.26.0.0.0.0.76.1549.26.26.0..2..0…1.1.64.psy-ab..0.25.1490…0j0i131k1j33i160k1j33i21k1.0.tV4INyCTj_g

    The aforementioned 62% versus 70% having a margin of error of what?

    This comes closest to your contention:

    https://www.quora.com/Is-Ukrainian-closer-to-Russian-or-Polish

    Reminded of references noting that Rusyn has more Russian words than modern day Ukrainian – which brings into play the modern era standardized Ukrainian developed with Soviet support.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  504. Mikhail says: • Website

    Article suggesting that some in Kiev regime controlled Ukraine are pushing to positively exaggerate the Ukrainian nationalist Russian Civil War era standing, as a means to offset the negative aspects of the WW II period OUN/UPA:

    https://www.fondsk.ru/news/2018/05/12/ukraina-polkovniki-nastojaschie-ubilei-falshivye-46119.html

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  505. Mikhail says: • Website
    @AP

    Comment 508 answers your stupid, sorry ass reply.

  506. @AP

    Consensus seems to be that it is somewhere in the middle.

    Agree.

    The pattern with the vocabulary cited in the earlier post is not altogether random:

    Spain’s relatively early colonization and geographic remoteness had important implications for the development of Romance languages in the Iberian Peninsula. The Latin that arrived in the Iberian Peninsula was in many cases an “older” Latin than that used in areas added subsequently to the Roman Empire. This effect was magnified by the relative isolation of the Iberian Peninsula, which meant that innovations from Rome often took much longer to arrive or in many cases never did.

    Thus, in a number of cases, “early” Latin words (in some cases pre-Classical) form the base of Spanish and Portuguese vocabulary, while later ones are used in other Romance languages. In many of these cases, the word subsequently used by French and Italian represents a more “colorful” or “expressive” (Cicero would have said “vulgar” or “rustic”) term.

    Spanish Vocabulary: An Etymological Approach (a highly recommended resource!)

    So COMERE (to eat) was replaced by MANDUCARE (to chew), MENSA (table) was replaced by TABULA (plank), etc.

    Of course the original question is whether D(Spanish, Catalan) > D(Russian, Ukrainian), of which I still remain doubtful.

    As I mentioned before, I know a Ukrainian here (nonintellectual, apolitical), so that will be the next piece of evidence.

    • Replies: @AP
    , @Mikel
  507. AP says:
    @for-the-record

    Fascinating. The things one learns here.

    It would be interesting to hear what you hear from this person.

  508. Mr. Hack says:
    @Mikhail

    Reminded of references noting that Rusyn has more Russian words than modern day Ukrainian – which brings into play the modern era standardized Ukrainian developed with Soviet support.

    This is close to an Averkoism, and when I’m in doubt, I just assign it this status anyway…so, WTH are you trying to say here anyway??:

    1) the soviets developed the Ukrainian language so that it was different than ‘Rusyn’?

    2) Rusyns are closer to Russians than to Ukrainians because according to you, ‘ Rusyn has more Russian words than modern day Ukrainian’ (a totally preposterous and unproven point, or as AP would say, just plain stupid).

    BTW, which dialect are you referring to when you banter around the term ‘Rusyn’, anyway? There are at least six variants of this ‘language’? Some of them may be closer to Slovak or Croatian than they are to either Russian or Ukrainian? Six different ‘languages’ for a ‘nation’ of 10,000 people. :-)

    • Replies: @AP
    , @Mikhail
  509. Mr. Hack says:
    @Mikhail

    What exactly is your gripe Averko? Fighting the commies in Donbas is a bad thing? The clip even gives an honorable mention to your Ukrainian superman, Hetman Pavlo Skoropadsky:

    • Replies: @Mikhail
  510. AP says:
    @Mr. Hack

    He is so dumb and boring that other than me and you almost nobody bothers to respond to his nonsense. Because he desperately replies to my posts a lot I occasionally remind him that I’m not interesting in a dialogue with him, because he’s too dumb, uneducated and boring to be worthy of a dialogue. He’s so dumb that he needs to be reminded of this repeatedly.

    There are smart people who are often wrong, but it is interesting to engage or argue with them because of their intelligence. Arguing with Mikhail is like arguing with a dim 9 year old who claims he’s really really smart and tries to prove it. It’s why almost nobody bothers to reply to his posts or on his blog.

    I wonder if he’ll respond to this post with some of his typically dumb bragging :-)

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    , @Mikhail
  511. Mr. Hack says:
    @AP

    I’ve read his stuff for several years now. It always seems to bring a smile to my face, especially his ‘Averkoisms’. These are proclamations of his that are difficult to understand because firstly the grammar doesn’t quite hang together, and secondly whatever he blurts out is usually ridiculous, like in the above one where he states: ‘Rusyn has more Russian words than modern day Ukrainian’. Do you know what I mean – only Averko can come up with a true-blue ‘Averkoism’! :-)

    • Replies: @AP
    , @Mikhail
  512. Mikel says:
    @for-the-record

    But Latin was brought to the Iberian peninsula by Roman legionaries, not the most sophisticated speakers of the Latin language. Many of them were not even Roman or native Latin speakers. I’ve often read that the divergence of the different Romance languages from standard Latin was heavily influenced by the sort of language spoken by these legionaries, who would often become settlers in the conquered territories.

    • Replies: @for-the-record
  513. @Mikel

    Certainly that was a factor as well. But the point the reference above was making was that the original settlers brought an “older” vocabulary with them to Spain and Portugal and many newer innovations never made it there.

    The Spanish/Portuguese word comer is a good illustration of this. In Classical Latin “to eat” was EDERE **, but this was replaced in popular speech by COMEDERE (literally to eat together, or to eat up) which was brought to the Iberian Peninsula by the legionaries and became comer. Later in Rome COMEDERE was supplanted in popular speech by MANDUCARE which gave origin to the Italian/French/Provencal/Catalan words for “eat”.

    ** EDERE is cognate with Germanic eat as Indo-European D became Germanic T by Grimm’s Law. ED- also appears in Russian medved медведь (“bear”) literally an eater of “honey” (мед, cognate with English mead, fermented honey drink).

    • Replies: @AP
    , @AP
    , @Mikel
  514. AP says:
    @for-the-record

    Fascinating. And Russian еда (yeda – “food”). In Ukrainian the typical word for food is rather different – їжа (yeezha).

    As for bear – Russian word is medved – eater of honey. Ukrainian word is vedmid – which seems to be, viewer of honey.

    • Replies: @for-the-record
  515. Mikhail says: • Website
    @AP

    You’re quite dumb in not comprehending why I (as clearly stated) reply to the lies and half truths that you’ve stated.

    Actually, I’ve had said several extended back and forths with folks who’re intelligent, while not knowing the extent of the level of BS you spew.

    On of numerous examples:

    http://www.unz.com/akarlin/no-victory/#comment-2328482

    Babble on dumbo.

  516. AP says:
    @Mr. Hack

    I’ve read his stuff for several years now. It always seems to bring a smile to my face, especially his ‘Averkoisms’.

    You have a lot of patience. I tend to just skip it.

    If I happen to see a bunch of his responses to my posts I’ll remind him and others that I am ignoring him and if someone wants to take up one of his points with me, I will oblige.

    • Replies: @Mikhail
  517. Mikhail says: • Website
    @Mr. Hack

    Your grammar and intelligence is considerably lower. Your fellow svido at these threads makes the more outlandish statements under the guise of being some super intellect – which he clearly isn’t.

    He goes bananas when substantively challenged and debunked.

    FYI, Rusyns themselves and others have noted the linguistic point.

  518. AP says:
    @for-the-record

    Fascinating. And Russian еда (yeda – “food”). In Ukrainian the typical word for food is rather different – їжа (yeezha).

    As for bear – Russian word is medved – eater of honey. Ukrainian word is vedmid – which seems to be, viewer of honey.

    • Replies: @Mikhail
  519. Mikhail says: • Website
    @AP

    You “skip” when your BS has been debunked and you’ve no valid counter reply. So much for your faux ethical lecturing on proper manner.

    • Replies: @AP
  520. Mikhail says: • Website
    @Mr. Hack

    Another example of your not being able to comprehend clearly stated comments in perfectly understandable English – on subject matter of interest to you.

  521. Mikhail says: • Website
    @Mr. Hack

    This is close to an Averkoism, and when I’m in doubt, I just assign it this status anyway…so, WTH are you trying to say here anyway??:

    1) the soviets developed the Ukrainian language so that it was different than ‘Rusyn’?

    2) Rusyns are closer to Russians than to Ukrainians because according to you, ‘ Rusyn has more Russian words than modern day Ukrainian’ (a totally preposterous and unproven point, or as AP would say, just plain stupid).

    BTW, which dialect are you referring to when you banter around the term ‘Rusyn’, anyway? There are at least six variants of this ‘language’? Some of them may be closer to Slovak or Croatian than they are to either Russian or Ukrainian? Six different ‘languages’ for a ‘nation’ of 10,000 people. :-)

    You’re quite dim.

    - Ukrainian nationalists and the early Soviet idealists each had their reasoning for wanting to further encourage a separate Ukrainian identity – alphabet/language served as one form for achieving this.

    - Ukrainian nationalists and some others say the Rusyns are essentially Ukrainians who didn’t adopt having a Ukrainian identity.

    - The Rusyn language is unstructured when compared to modern day Ukrainian – reminding that the same was once evident regarding the linguistic situation with the ancestors of modern day Ukrainians

    - The link relates to the last two points directly above:

    https://www.quora.com/Is-Ukrainian-closer-to-Russian-or-Polish

    - The overall Rusyn population is significantly greater than the number you give

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    , @Mikel
  522. AP says:
    @Mikhail

    You “skip” when your BS has been debunked and you’ve no valid counter reply

    To clarify for any readers, my posting history shows I only tend to ignore comments by the dumb, uneducated and boring Mikhail. I rarely ignore anyone else. This apparently makes Mikhail very sad and angry, so he keeps replying to my posts. Refusing to get into an argument with a 9 year old or someone with the mind of a 9 year old does not mean one is wrong and the 9 year old is right; refusing to engage with Mikhail does not mean that Mikhail has debunked something.

    I will remind him and others of this on other comment sections if need be, but I am finished with him on this comment section.

    By all means he will continue trying to bite at my ankles. It is what he does best.

    • Replies: @Mikhail
  523. Mikhail says: • Website
    @AP

    Fascinating. And Russian еда (yeda – “food”). In Ukrainian the typical word for food is rather different – їжа (yeezha).

    As for bear – Russian word is medved – eater of honey. Ukrainian word is vedmid – which seems to be, viewer of honey.

    In Polish:

    - food is “jedzenie”
    - bear “niedźwiedź”

    In line with the commonly held view that Ukrainian is closer to Russian than Polish.

  524. Mikhail says: • Website
    @AP

    To clarify for readers, AP conveniently (for the benefit of his own convoluted views) is prone to skipping what he can’t successfully refute. AP’s ad hominem approach is indicative of a feeble mindedness on his part.

    The examples are clearly there.

    As noted by yours truly, I’m substantively replying (with facts and fact based opinions) to the BS he spews. No need for me to get mad as he erroneously states. He’s a poor mind reader. The situation is more like setting the record straight by debunking his rehashed BS.

  525. Mr. Hack says:
    @Mikhail

    Ukrainian nationalists and some others say the Rusyns are essentially Ukrainians who didn’t adopt having a Ukrainian identity.

    - The Rusyn language is unstructured when compared to modern day Ukrainian – reminding that the same was once evident regarding the linguistic situation with the ancestors of modern day Ukrainians

    WTH is Alexandre Kouyoumdjian? A guy who ‘really likes linguistics’ and you’re relying on his comments as an authoritative source? Besides, he doesn’t even touch on the topic of the closeness of the Rusyn dialects with any other language, so how you come to use him as an expert source to bolster your insane comment that:

    Rusyn has more Russian words than modern day Ukrainian

    is way beyond me? Truly, only somebody with the intelligence of a 9 year old would try a stunt like that!!! :-)

    • Replies: @Mikhail
  526. @AP

    Ukrainian word is vedmid – which seems to be, viewer of honey.

    Possibly, but I would wager that it was rather a metathesis of the Slavic medved, perhaps intentionally as a taboo deformation (characteristic in many languages for “bear” words). Do you have access to an etymological dictionary of the Ukrainian language?

    • Replies: @AP
  527. AP says:
    @for-the-record

    taboo deformation (characteristic in many languages for “bear” words)

    I had no idea this was a thing with bears.

    I see that Ukrainian is the only Slavic language that does this. Russian, Czech, Croatian, Polish all place the “med” (“nied” in the case of Polish) first:

  528. Probably owing to a hunters’ superstition whereby uttering the name of one’s quarry was forbidden for fear the animal might hear his name and make himself scarce, the bear’s name was taboo in the northern European branches and was replaced by circumlocutions like ‘the brown one’ (Germanic), ‘honey-eater’ (Slavic), ‘licker’ (of honey, Baltic; the inherited word may survive in a term meaning ‘bear’s den’), ‘honey-desirer’ or ‘good calf’ (Irish; the inherited word survives as the personal name Art).

    Indo-European Language and Culture: An Introduction

    • Replies: @AP
  529. AP says: