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There are some pretty strange ideas floating around that Russia is obligated to help Syria/Iran in their decades-long squabbles with Israel, and that Putin is “betraying his people” by not doing so.

Well, last time I checked, Putin is President of Russians, not Syrians/Iranians. Indeed, the term “сирийские братушки” (“Syrian brothers”) has long been an ironic meme on Runet to denote the absurdity of such appeals. I don’t even disagree with the assertion that Putin betrayed his people. It’s just that it happened in 2014, not on any of the dozen occasions when he failed to wage a nuclear war with Israel to indulge some Westerners’ peculiar ideological fantasies about Russia as the antipode to the Zionist menace.

In any case, Putin never even reacted to the outright American murders of Russian mercenaries in Syria, so it would if anything be absurd – not to mention supremely insulting (to Russians) – if he was to do more for Iranian ones.

Alexander Mercouris spelled out why Russia has no rational incentives to take a side in Arab/Israeli squabbles back in 2017:

It is not just that the Western media can be relied up never to criticise any action Israel takes however wrong or outrageous it might be. The dismal truth is that none of the world’s major governments do so either. Not only does the US invariably support Israel whatever it does and however outrageous its actions might be, but the days when Israeli actions would come in for strong criticism from the governments of Russia and China are long gone.

The Russians and the Chinese have their hardheaded practical reasons for this change of stance. Since the Arabs are incapable of taking a united stand against Israel, there is little sense in them doing so. Besides the Russians were badly burnt during the period from roughly 1967 to 1985, when they took a strong stand against Israel only to be blamed by the Arabs for their own failures, and when they found that Arab Jihadis were far keener to fight them in Afghanistan than to fight the Israelis. Needless to say after that experience the Russians have no intention of sticking their necks out for the Arabs again.

And more recently:

When following the 1967 Six Days War the Russians did commit themselves wholeheartedly to one side in the Arab-Israeli conflict – backing the Arabs diplomatically, arming the Arabs intensively, sending a strong military force to defend Egypt in 1970 from Israeli air attacks, and breaking off diplomatic relations with Israel – the result for Moscow was a catastrophe.

The USSR’s large Jewish community became alienated, the USSR found that by making an enemy of Israel it had further poisoned its relations with the Western powers at precisely the time when it was seeking detente with them, and the USSR quickly discovered that its Arab ‘allies’ in whom it had invested so much were both ungrateful and treacherous, so that by 1980 the USSR’s entire position in the Middle East had completely collapsed.

The final straw came after the Soviet intervention in Afghanistan in 1979, when volunteers from across the Arab world rushed to fight the Russians in Afghanistan, in a way that they had never shown the slightest indication of wanting to do against Israel on behalf of the Palestinians.

Not surprisingly, the Russians have therefore since the mid-1980s been determined never to become directly involved in any part of the Arab-Israel conflict again.

Thus whilst Russia maintains good relations with the Arab states, and whilst Russia continues to voice support for the Palestinians, Russia has always striven to maintain good relations with Israel as well, and has forged significant economic links with Israel.

One additional point I would make it is that many of these fervent opponents of the AngloZionists were also some of the most active at propagating the meme about how intervening in the Ukraine in 2014 was an AngloZionist trap to draw Russia into WW3 and praising the 666D chess brilliance of the Minsk Accords, while shouting down its critics as hysterical panickers, if not outright sixth columnists.

So sorry to break it to them that Russia is not going to fight a war with Israel, or even cut economic ties, for the sake of the desert training arena. Actually not very sorry at all. The rise in oil prices is to be looked forwards to.

 
• Category: Foreign Policy • Tags: Israel, Russia, Syrian Civil War 
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  1. Jayce says:

    The absolute state of the alt-media these days:

    “Man, I sure do hate America, always involving themselves in these pointless drawn-out ME conflicts”
    “Also, I sure do hate Russia now, never involving themselves in these pointless drawn-out ME conflicts enough”

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  2. Pretty cynical take imo. One doesn’t need to have any warm feelings towards Arabs or Muslims (I certainly don’t) to recognize that more chaos and destruction of state structures in the Mideast should be an undesirable outcome. It would be stupid for Russia to get dragged in a war with the US or Israel over the Mideast, but a war for regime change against Iran (which seems increasingly likely) can’t be in Russia’s interests either.

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    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
    That's a very different scenario.

    When/if that is imminent (it can't be done off the fly), I would support provisioning Iran with S-400s, Bastions, and a lot of Sunburn missiles.

    Perhaps it would also be feasible to give the Russian Air Force a good exercise over Iranian airspace.
    , @utu

    to recognize that more chaos and destruction of state structures in the Mideast should be an undesirable outcome
     
    Most observers and kibitzers on either side thought that Russia was trying to put the stop to the unfolding Yinon plan which was Israel driven but aided and abetted by the US and considered Russia's action in Syria as a serious challenge to the American empire that was manifested by Israel's impunity in the region. In a bigger picture this was about Russia's attempt to restore the multipolar world.

    To say that Russia has "no rational incentives to take a side in Arab/Israeli squabbles" as AK says is both disingenuous and specious. It is not just about the identity of participants or even the real estate out there but about the imponderables of power which are credibility and trust. Just like America in words of Lavrov is not 'agreement-worthy' which she can easily afford because of her strength, Russia just demonstrated to the whole world, and Chinese are watching, she is not 'alliance-worthy' because of her weakness. Not only military weakness but doctrinal and ideological weakness of Russia's spineless elites.

    Furthermore Russia demonstrated that its foreign policy is conducted w/o foresight and has an adventurist streak. Before going to Syria did they answer the question what would they do when Israel decides to put its foot down? Or did they have Martyanov there who convinced that that Israel ill be to intimidated by all these Russian Wunderwaffe missiles?

    Is it possible that Russia gained something from it, that there is a secret deal, that surrendering to Netanyahu instead to Trump is less hurtful and Russia will be now allowed to use the term 'our Western partners' not ironically? Anybody buys it?

    If Israel intensifies its actions during the World Cup we will definitively know that Russia is being still f. in the a. and the matter is unresolved, i..e. Russia did not capitulate yet. But if Israel gives Russia a breather to withdraw or scale down with some remnants of dignity then it will be a sure sign that Russia has capitulated.

    The situation is serious and still unclear in which AK's smug cynical and oxymoronically triumphalist defeatism is sophomoric.
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  3. Watching the Saker writhe is vaguely amusing.

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    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
    In fairness, The Saker is not one of the people yelling treason (though he is deeply disappointed).
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  4. @German_reader
    Pretty cynical take imo. One doesn't need to have any warm feelings towards Arabs or Muslims (I certainly don't) to recognize that more chaos and destruction of state structures in the Mideast should be an undesirable outcome. It would be stupid for Russia to get dragged in a war with the US or Israel over the Mideast, but a war for regime change against Iran (which seems increasingly likely) can't be in Russia's interests either.

    That’s a very different scenario.

    When/if that is imminent (it can’t be done off the fly), I would support provisioning Iran with S-400s, Bastions, and a lot of Sunburn missiles.

    Perhaps it would also be feasible to give the Russian Air Force a good exercise over Iranian airspace.

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    • Replies: @German_reader
    Ok, I misunderstood then. I agree that by themselves Israel's current attacks in Syria aren't worth it for Russia to risk confrontation with the US and Israel. But they might well be the first steps towards an escalation of hostilities with Iran that ends in a regime change project. And in some way (not necessarily direct intervention) Russia would have to react to that.
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  5. Of course Russia should fight/retaliate first and foremost when Russians are killed. And while I would personally love Russia to wipe out Israel, of course Russia is not obligated to fight them and it’s not in your interest to do so.

    HOWEVER, inviting Netanyahu to the parade is a bit much. It’s simply tasteless and something that Putin could have done without, and this would not have hurt Russia’s interests.

    Not to mention that when Israel bombs Syria, they hurt not only Syria, but Russia’s reputation as well. You don’t have formal obligation to defend them but they are your ally, you have two bases there and the Israelis bomb Syria in the most blatant and insolent manner. Again, yes – Russia’s reputation is already hurt much more by what it allows every day in the Donbass. But still, Israel’s unpunished constant aggression is something that hurts it further, too.

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    • Agree: Felix Keverich
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  6. @Anatoly Karlin
    That's a very different scenario.

    When/if that is imminent (it can't be done off the fly), I would support provisioning Iran with S-400s, Bastions, and a lot of Sunburn missiles.

    Perhaps it would also be feasible to give the Russian Air Force a good exercise over Iranian airspace.

    Ok, I misunderstood then. I agree that by themselves Israel’s current attacks in Syria aren’t worth it for Russia to risk confrontation with the US and Israel. But they might well be the first steps towards an escalation of hostilities with Iran that ends in a regime change project. And in some way (not necessarily direct intervention) Russia would have to react to that.

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    • Replies: @Dmitry
    What we know will happen (without need for speculation) is Trump is going to sanction Iran economically unilaterally, to contain the Iranian foreign policy (which they - Trump, Israel, and the Gulf Arab countries - see as expansionist).

    This could have some negative positions for Russia in the long-term, as Iran will eventually have less resources to buy purchases from Russia.

    In the medium-term, it could be positive, as Iran will be more restricted in countries it can purchase from, and more dependent on Russia.

    It could also lead to a rise in oil-price.

    From the political side, Putin was very happy with 2015 Iran deal, as thought it would be successful from arms containment point of view, and it also allows Iran to purchase weapons again from Russia.

    In the immediate picture, it will be EU who will lose economically, from the American sanctions on Iran. The negative impact on Russia, would be in an indirect way (and sometime after, if Iran starts to have less spending power).
    , @Sean
    If Russia wants lead a global energy order, siding with Iran against the de facto Sunni power block that includes the oil rich Gulf states would seem to be of dubious utility. Russia owes Iran nothin. and is is hurting the energy prices.
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  7. Beckow says:

    So what. Precisely. Getting involved in other people’s fights is stupid and almost always backfires.

    To the Afghan experience, I would add the insane Arab-Moslem fanaticism in urging the West to destroy Yugoslavia, and the pathological Moslem hatred for Serbs. All it took is for some Western media types to throw out a few ‘Moslems are suffering‘ memes and the Arab street went hysterical.

    Time for a payback. What goes around, comes around. Let them fight their own fights. Oil at $80 would reshuffle the geo-politics a lot more than a few missiles in the Syrian desert. It was nicely symbolic that Putin and Netanyahu were joined by the Serbian President.

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    • Replies: @German_reader

    and the Arab street went hysterical.
     
    Did it? I know Saudi-Arabia and Iran supported the Bosnians, but was this a popular issue in the Arab world?
    I always had the impression that the ones most sympathetic to the Bosnians were western multiculti types who regarded Bosnians as the new Jews or something of the sort and the Serbs as Nazis.
    , @Spisarevski
    Except in Syria it is Christians, crypto Christians (alawites) and normal (not-goatfucking, not particularly religious) sunnis fighting the same muslims who cheered the bombing of Serbia. And facing genocide if they fail. Which they will, if Israel follows on its threats and kills Assad, as much as I would like to believe that they can't mossad the Assad.

    It's not in Russia's interest to risk war with Israel but the same is doubly more true for Israel, it's definitely not in their interest to seek war with Russia. Russia hasn't fired a shot against Israel, all the aggression is coming from one side, and if Russia simply supplies S-300 to the Syrian army the jewish psychopaths will bitch about it, but they have to be completely retarded to try and bomb it.

    , @Talha

    Let them fight their own fights.
     
    Amen to that. Write this in gold.

    Only add one corollary; don't destroy relatively stable nations in the area for "muh Democray 'n WMD".

    Leave the Muslim world alone; don't get involved in their fights. Hell, stop selling them weapons too. Way better for them if you do, they just use them to go bonkers on each other...like Yemen.

    Just stop. Urge politicians to stop getting involved in the ME, invading them, inviting them, selling them weapons. Just stop.

    Peace.

    Note: ‘Moslems are suffering‘ memes and the Arab street went hysterical.
    We didn't need the MSM for that. I was alive at the time, the word was getting out of Sarajevo through Muslim outlets (we were circulating video tapes of what was going on, there were reliable Muslim non-profit orgs as well) - the West could have completely kept silent and it wouldn't have mattered. Muslims responding by sending fighters from all over the world to help since their governments were incapable of doing anything (or unwilling). I actually keep up with daily feeds from a convert from the US who went and fought and ended up marrying a Bosnian sister.
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  8. @Daniel Chieh
    Watching the Saker writhe is vaguely amusing.

    In fairness, The Saker is not one of the people yelling treason (though he is deeply disappointed).

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    • Replies: @utu
    Saker is dissimulating because he can't face the magnitude of disappointment. That's why her wrote his article ostensively about Skripals to redirect.
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  9. @Beckow
    So what. Precisely. Getting involved in other people's fights is stupid and almost always backfires.

    To the Afghan experience, I would add the insane Arab-Moslem fanaticism in urging the West to destroy Yugoslavia, and the pathological Moslem hatred for Serbs. All it took is for some Western media types to throw out a few 'Moslems are suffering' memes and the Arab street went hysterical.

    Time for a payback. What goes around, comes around. Let them fight their own fights. Oil at $80 would reshuffle the geo-politics a lot more than a few missiles in the Syrian desert. It was nicely symbolic that Putin and Netanyahu were joined by the Serbian President.

    and the Arab street went hysterical.

    Did it? I know Saudi-Arabia and Iran supported the Bosnians, but was this a popular issue in the Arab world?
    I always had the impression that the ones most sympathetic to the Bosnians were western multiculti types who regarded Bosnians as the new Jews or something of the sort and the Serbs as Nazis.

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    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    I know Turks were enthusiastic about it, also plenty of Saudi Arabian and similar volunteers and especially money (Saudis built a lot of mosques in Bosnia since then, and I heard Bosnia was slowly moving in the Wahhabi direction), but I'm unsure of most Arab countries. Were Syrians enthusiastic about it?
    , @Johnny Rico
    The charge leveled at the first Bush administration in 1991 was that the invasion of Iraq and the First Gulf War was all about oil and that the US didn't give a shit about non-white/European people or even people. Which is largely true.

    To counter these feelings, the Bush administration towards the very end of its existence launched the invasion of Somalia to facilitate the UN's mission of distributing aid to combat a famine which was largely over.

    The American public quickly lost interest in this foray until the Black Hawk Down incident put it back on the front page. These were the pre-internet days when any and all discussion took place on CNN or in the pages of the Nation, the New Republic, The New York Times, or Foreign Affairs.

    This was also the start of the Clinton years. Bill Clinton ran on a platform of partially promising to get involved in Bosnia to stop the Serbian genocide of Muslims.
    Troops-on-the actually became President he lost enthusiasm for getting involved in what appeared to be a very complicated situation and faced a lot of pressure to avoid getting involved in a quagmire. Air power had gained credibility from the First Gulf War. Troops-on-the-ground became problematic because of Somalia.

    It took a couple of years for the Clinton administration to do what it did in Bosnia.
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  10. @Beckow
    So what. Precisely. Getting involved in other people's fights is stupid and almost always backfires.

    To the Afghan experience, I would add the insane Arab-Moslem fanaticism in urging the West to destroy Yugoslavia, and the pathological Moslem hatred for Serbs. All it took is for some Western media types to throw out a few 'Moslems are suffering' memes and the Arab street went hysterical.

    Time for a payback. What goes around, comes around. Let them fight their own fights. Oil at $80 would reshuffle the geo-politics a lot more than a few missiles in the Syrian desert. It was nicely symbolic that Putin and Netanyahu were joined by the Serbian President.

    Except in Syria it is Christians, crypto Christians (alawites) and normal (not-goatfucking, not particularly religious) sunnis fighting the same muslims who cheered the bombing of Serbia. And facing genocide if they fail. Which they will, if Israel follows on its threats and kills Assad, as much as I would like to believe that they can’t mossad the Assad.

    It’s not in Russia’s interest to risk war with Israel but the same is doubly more true for Israel, it’s definitely not in their interest to seek war with Russia. Russia hasn’t fired a shot against Israel, all the aggression is coming from one side, and if Russia simply supplies S-300 to the Syrian army the jewish psychopaths will bitch about it, but they have to be completely retarded to try and bomb it.

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  11. There’s an old Social Matter article predicting the Russian aim would be to eternally play off the Jew, the Persian, and the Turk. While they’re engaged in a three way tug of war in the ME, Russia mediates between them and thus translates a weak hand into a strong one, since Russia gets to decide the ‘exception’ in the deadlock.

    I think that’s what the Kremlin’s aiming for, so Eurasianist boomers like the Saker who sees Russia as the Holy Orthodox Hammer which will nail the ‘Anglo-Zionist’ Empire is sadly mistaken.

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    • Replies: @Dmitry

    There’s an old Social Matter article predicting the Russian aim would be to eternally play off the Jew, the Persian, and the Turk. While they’re engaged in a three way tug of war in the ME, Russia mediates between them and thus translates a weak hand into a strong one, since Russia gets to decide the ‘exception’ in the deadlock.
     
    Yes although a cynical way to write it. They probably see it as 'making friends with every different side'.

    The traditional way, since the times of the Russian empire, is to support build relations with both sides in local or tribal conflicts, and act as mediators. This is how the situation is still now in relation to Armenia and Azerbaijan.

    In the Israel and Iran situation, it is a maybe little more complicated due to the status of Israel as an outpost of Pindostan .

    However, it could be seen a lot of attempts from Putin to build warmer relations with both Iran and with Israel at the same time. So it's obvious what the overall shape of policy is in their minds.

    The relations with Iran will also start to warm in the future (it is possibly that soon there could be visa-free travel with Iran). They are trying to persuade Israel to join (free-trade zone) in the customs union, and it will be interesting if they eventually attempt to persuade Iran to join a free-trade zone.

    , @Anonymous

    There’s an old Social Matter article predicting the Russian aim would be to eternally play off the Jew, the Persian, and the Turk.
     
    Nothing of that seems to be currently working. Russia seems to be VERY cornered by Israel and its US goon, trying to keep eye contact while sliding towards the door marked "Emergency Exit: China" while Neo-Caliphate Turkey don't care about anything and is ready to play hard for territory and Islamic supremacism but may buy a few weapons in the near future as white-knuckled Persians try to hold on for dear life.
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  12. neutral says:

    Putin is betraying his people not because of Iran or Syria, he is betraying his people by hosting Netanyahu in Russia.

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    • Replies: @Lemurmaniac
    Let's face it; he's a winded horse. Time for Karlin's 'dark Tsar'.
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  13. utu says:
    @Anatoly Karlin
    In fairness, The Saker is not one of the people yelling treason (though he is deeply disappointed).

    Saker is dissimulating because he can’t face the magnitude of disappointment. That’s why her wrote his article ostensively about Skripals to redirect.

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  14. @neutral
    Putin is betraying his people not because of Iran or Syria, he is betraying his people by hosting Netanyahu in Russia.

    Let’s face it; he’s a winded horse. Time for Karlin’s ‘dark Tsar’.

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    • Replies: @Not Raul
    Who would be the dark tsar? Kiriyenko?
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  15. @German_reader

    and the Arab street went hysterical.
     
    Did it? I know Saudi-Arabia and Iran supported the Bosnians, but was this a popular issue in the Arab world?
    I always had the impression that the ones most sympathetic to the Bosnians were western multiculti types who regarded Bosnians as the new Jews or something of the sort and the Serbs as Nazis.

    I know Turks were enthusiastic about it, also plenty of Saudi Arabian and similar volunteers and especially money (Saudis built a lot of mosques in Bosnia since then, and I heard Bosnia was slowly moving in the Wahhabi direction), but I’m unsure of most Arab countries. Were Syrians enthusiastic about it?

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  16. Kimppis says:

    Speaking of high oil prices, Russia’s federal budget is still based on an oil price of $40 (!), while Brent is almost at $80 per barrel and ruble is still weak. But the MSM told me that Russia was running out of “money”!?

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  17. Bob007 says:

    Higher oil price is definitely a good thing for Russia.

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  18. Talha says:
    @Beckow
    So what. Precisely. Getting involved in other people's fights is stupid and almost always backfires.

    To the Afghan experience, I would add the insane Arab-Moslem fanaticism in urging the West to destroy Yugoslavia, and the pathological Moslem hatred for Serbs. All it took is for some Western media types to throw out a few 'Moslems are suffering' memes and the Arab street went hysterical.

    Time for a payback. What goes around, comes around. Let them fight their own fights. Oil at $80 would reshuffle the geo-politics a lot more than a few missiles in the Syrian desert. It was nicely symbolic that Putin and Netanyahu were joined by the Serbian President.

    Let them fight their own fights.

    Amen to that. Write this in gold.

    Only add one corollary; don’t destroy relatively stable nations in the area for “muh Democray ‘n WMD”.

    Leave the Muslim world alone; don’t get involved in their fights. Hell, stop selling them weapons too. Way better for them if you do, they just use them to go bonkers on each other…like Yemen.

    Just stop. Urge politicians to stop getting involved in the ME, invading them, inviting them, selling them weapons. Just stop.

    Peace.

    Note: ‘Moslems are suffering‘ memes and the Arab street went hysterical.
    We didn’t need the MSM for that. I was alive at the time, the word was getting out of Sarajevo through Muslim outlets (we were circulating video tapes of what was going on, there were reliable Muslim non-profit orgs as well) – the West could have completely kept silent and it wouldn’t have mattered. Muslims responding by sending fighters from all over the world to help since their governments were incapable of doing anything (or unwilling). I actually keep up with daily feeds from a convert from the US who went and fought and ended up marrying a Bosnian sister.

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  19. The current oil price is also quite good for America.

    High enough to be a major boon to producers (and their upstream suppliers, like me), but not high enough to cause major harm to consumers.

    Over $100 I would consider negative, but WTI is at $70 which is a Goldilocks price.

    Asphalt prices remain stubbornly high which is a real problem, particularly if Trump ever gets his infrastructure spending going (doubtful).

    Regarding the article itself, I don’t see the problem with Netanyahu in Moscow. Auschwitz was after all stopped by the Red Army, and many of Netanyahu’s constituents are the descendants of Great Patriotic War veterans. If Netanyahu’s grandfather hadn’t emigrated to Palestine in 1920, it’s quite likely the Germans would have killed him. Just about every Jew living in Poland in September 1939 was ultimately killed (by German Nazis…wouldn’t want to violate Poland’s new laws on the Holocaust).

    Israel occasionally bombs this and that thing in Syria, but that’s just what “serious” powers do these days. France, Britain, Iran, Russia, America, Turkey, etc. are all in on the act as well. Everyone agrees that you have to bomb…something…in Syria. What you bomb and why hardly seems to matter to anyone.

    As for the Faker’s fever dreams of Russia, of course the world’s undisputed military megapower and the axis around which the rest of the world revolves, decisively confronting the Anglo-Zionists…whatever. There’s a certain class of person whose primary worldview is simply hatred of America and Israel, as opposed to support of Russia (or whatever). The dwindling band of Western “anti-war activists” are generally like this as well. They oppose America’s wars, but not other people’s wars.

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  20. Bibi went to Moscow and

    told lil’ Vlad

    “we have your Swiss bank account #’s”,

    and then he said,

    “now jump!”

    And lil’ Vlad asked,

    “how high?”

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  21. Dmitry says:

    It is not just that the Western media can be relied up never to criticise any action Israel takes however wrong or outrageous it might be.

    Kind of a dumb comment (not from our venerable Karlin, but this guy he quotes).

    Most Western media has the bias towards anti-Israel reportage and also is obsessed with small stories in there that no-one would care about in another country – which is what creates a lot of obsession and anger, like on this website, from people who know nothing of the region, or even care particularly about Arab eudaimonia.

    It’s not on the same level as the Russophobia in the media, but has a kind of similar taste.

    When you are there (to live some months in Israel itself), you rapidly realize that not so much is actually happening there. It is quite a safe place overall. Even in terms of oppressed populations. Many Arabs are living richly there, living in large houses, and sitting outside in restaurant patios at expensive restaurants.

    Interesting situation of conflicts in a local level, that is useful for other countries probably if studied objectively, but not on any ‘world news’ levels.

    As for Israel’s actions. They are usually predictable, and even local politics has a similar predictable dynamic as America itself (liberal secular elite in opposition with more redneck population).

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    • Replies: @German_reader

    Most Western media has the bias towards anti-Israel reportage
     
    Sorry, but that's just a tiresome pro-Israel propaganda point. US mainstream media definitely has a pro-Israel bias. In Germany you've got the Springer media conglomerate which actually obliges employees in their contracts to report positively about Israel (!). In Britain outlets like the Daily Telegraph are also quite pro-Israel. I don't know how it's in France, Italy etc., but I doubt all media there is anti-Israel.
    Are some Western media anti-Israel? Sure. But I still think that Israel gets away with way more dubious stuff than any Western country would (one just has to compare how demonized Poland and Hungary are). Those complaints about hostile media are just another manifestation of the Israelis' "the entire world is full of antisemites who are against us for no reason at all" complex. Not credible anymore.
    , @Thorfinnsson
    Mercouris might be thinking of Anglo media, which indeed does not criticize Israel much. The situation on the Continent (besides Germany) is quite different, where Israel is increasingly associated with "racism", "apartheid", and other allegedly very evil things.

    Most Western media has the bias towards anti-Israel reportage and also is obsessed with small stories in there that no-one would care about in another country – which is what creates a lot of obsession and anger, like on this website, from people who know nothing of the region, or even care particularly about Arab eudaimonia.
     

    This is a very weird tendency which is quite common, and it's not just the media. There are many people with zero skin in the game (neither Jewish, Arabalonian, Mohammedan, nor Nazi) who are absolutely obsessed with Israel and Palestine.

    There was a politics forum I used to frequent with many such characters. I remember in particular a Dutchman and an Australian who were both pathologically obsessed with Israel and discussed almost nothing else. They were fervent anti-Zionists, and they weren't antisemites either (both, of course, were strongly opposed to racism). I accused the Australian of being a Mohammedan, and he was surprised at the accusation and couldn't understand why it was made.

    When pressed, such people will simply claim they're opposed to colonialism, imperialism, racism, apartheid, etc. and other allegedly really evil things. But if you ask them what they think about the oppression of the Polisarios, Acehnese, Tamils, or whatever they draw a complete blank.

    An amusing trolling strategy when drawn into such a discussion is to state that you support the restoration of Outremer--the only question being whether you support the Hapsburg or Bourbon claim to the Kingdom of Jerusalem (naturally, only a barbarian would support the Lignese Savoyard claim...). :)

    That said you should distinguish between Israel proper and the Occupied Territories. The situation in the Occupied Territories is much worse for the Arabalonians than it is in Israel proper.

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  22. utu says:
    @German_reader
    Pretty cynical take imo. One doesn't need to have any warm feelings towards Arabs or Muslims (I certainly don't) to recognize that more chaos and destruction of state structures in the Mideast should be an undesirable outcome. It would be stupid for Russia to get dragged in a war with the US or Israel over the Mideast, but a war for regime change against Iran (which seems increasingly likely) can't be in Russia's interests either.

    to recognize that more chaos and destruction of state structures in the Mideast should be an undesirable outcome

    Most observers and kibitzers on either side thought that Russia was trying to put the stop to the unfolding Yinon plan which was Israel driven but aided and abetted by the US and considered Russia’s action in Syria as a serious challenge to the American empire that was manifested by Israel’s impunity in the region. In a bigger picture this was about Russia’s attempt to restore the multipolar world.

    To say that Russia has “no rational incentives to take a side in Arab/Israeli squabbles” as AK says is both disingenuous and specious. It is not just about the identity of participants or even the real estate out there but about the imponderables of power which are credibility and trust. Just like America in words of Lavrov is not ‘agreement-worthy’ which she can easily afford because of her strength, Russia just demonstrated to the whole world, and Chinese are watching, she is not ‘alliance-worthy’ because of her weakness. Not only military weakness but doctrinal and ideological weakness of Russia’s spineless elites.

    Furthermore Russia demonstrated that its foreign policy is conducted w/o foresight and has an adventurist streak. Before going to Syria did they answer the question what would they do when Israel decides to put its foot down? Or did they have Martyanov there who convinced that that Israel ill be to intimidated by all these Russian Wunderwaffe missiles?

    Is it possible that Russia gained something from it, that there is a secret deal, that surrendering to Netanyahu instead to Trump is less hurtful and Russia will be now allowed to use the term ‘our Western partners’ not ironically? Anybody buys it?

    If Israel intensifies its actions during the World Cup we will definitively know that Russia is being still f. in the a. and the matter is unresolved, i..e. Russia did not capitulate yet. But if Israel gives Russia a breather to withdraw or scale down with some remnants of dignity then it will be a sure sign that Russia has capitulated.

    The situation is serious and still unclear in which AK’s smug cynical and oxymoronically triumphalist defeatism is sophomoric.

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    • Agree: The Scalpel
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  23. In any case, Putin never even reacted to the outright American murders of Russian mercenaries in Syria

    You refer to this from time to time but I wish you’d write a blog post detailing why you actually believe there have been a mass of Russian mercenaries(as in more than 30 in that incident) killed in Syria… because I don’t buy it.

    http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/american-fury-the-truth-about-the-russian-deaths-in-syria-a-1196074.html

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    • Replies: @Bigly

    You refer to this from time to time but I wish you’d write a blog post detailing why you actually believe there have been a mass of Russian mercenaries(as in more than 30 in that incident) killed in Syria… because I don’t buy it.

    http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/american-fury-the-truth-about-the-russian-deaths-in-syria-a-1196074.html
     

    This article should be circulated more widely.

    Hundreds of Russian mercs killed by the Americans is a demoralizing disinformation.

    On top of that Spiegel investigation, competent open source intel organizations based in Russia which were quick to start naming the victims have come up with less than 30 names of Russian citizens killed after a month of the event, corroborating Spiegel's findings.

    , @Anatoly Karlin
    In my articles on the Wagner affair (just search site:unz.com/akarlin wagner) I rejected both initial Kremlin propaganda that there were no deaths and Western/(+hysterical Russian nationalist) propaganda there were hundreds of deaths.

    In fact, my estimates (a few dozen deaths) were in the same ballpark as the later serious investigations.
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  24. Dmitry says:
    @German_reader
    Ok, I misunderstood then. I agree that by themselves Israel's current attacks in Syria aren't worth it for Russia to risk confrontation with the US and Israel. But they might well be the first steps towards an escalation of hostilities with Iran that ends in a regime change project. And in some way (not necessarily direct intervention) Russia would have to react to that.

    What we know will happen (without need for speculation) is Trump is going to sanction Iran economically unilaterally, to contain the Iranian foreign policy (which they – Trump, Israel, and the Gulf Arab countries – see as expansionist).

    This could have some negative positions for Russia in the long-term, as Iran will eventually have less resources to buy purchases from Russia.

    In the medium-term, it could be positive, as Iran will be more restricted in countries it can purchase from, and more dependent on Russia.

    It could also lead to a rise in oil-price.

    From the political side, Putin was very happy with 2015 Iran deal, as thought it would be successful from arms containment point of view, and it also allows Iran to purchase weapons again from Russia.

    In the immediate picture, it will be EU who will lose economically, from the American sanctions on Iran. The negative impact on Russia, would be in an indirect way (and sometime after, if Iran starts to have less spending power).

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  25. Dmitry says:
    @Lemurmaniac
    There's an old Social Matter article predicting the Russian aim would be to eternally play off the Jew, the Persian, and the Turk. While they're engaged in a three way tug of war in the ME, Russia mediates between them and thus translates a weak hand into a strong one, since Russia gets to decide the 'exception' in the deadlock.

    I think that's what the Kremlin's aiming for, so Eurasianist boomers like the Saker who sees Russia as the Holy Orthodox Hammer which will nail the 'Anglo-Zionist' Empire is sadly mistaken.

    There’s an old Social Matter article predicting the Russian aim would be to eternally play off the Jew, the Persian, and the Turk. While they’re engaged in a three way tug of war in the ME, Russia mediates between them and thus translates a weak hand into a strong one, since Russia gets to decide the ‘exception’ in the deadlock.

    Yes although a cynical way to write it. They probably see it as ‘making friends with every different side’.

    The traditional way, since the times of the Russian empire, is to support build relations with both sides in local or tribal conflicts, and act as mediators. This is how the situation is still now in relation to Armenia and Azerbaijan.

    In the Israel and Iran situation, it is a maybe little more complicated due to the status of Israel as an outpost of Pindostan .

    However, it could be seen a lot of attempts from Putin to build warmer relations with both Iran and with Israel at the same time. So it’s obvious what the overall shape of policy is in their minds.

    The relations with Iran will also start to warm in the future (it is possibly that soon there could be visa-free travel with Iran). They are trying to persuade Israel to join (free-trade zone) in the customs union, and it will be interesting if they eventually attempt to persuade Iran to join a free-trade zone.

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  26. @Dmitry

    It is not just that the Western media can be relied up never to criticise any action Israel takes however wrong or outrageous it might be.
     
    Kind of a dumb comment (not from our venerable Karlin, but this guy he quotes).

    Most Western media has the bias towards anti-Israel reportage and also is obsessed with small stories in there that no-one would care about in another country - which is what creates a lot of obsession and anger, like on this website, from people who know nothing of the region, or even care particularly about Arab eudaimonia.

    It's not on the same level as the Russophobia in the media, but has a kind of similar taste.

    When you are there (to live some months in Israel itself), you rapidly realize that not so much is actually happening there. It is quite a safe place overall. Even in terms of oppressed populations. Many Arabs are living richly there, living in large houses, and sitting outside in restaurant patios at expensive restaurants.

    Interesting situation of conflicts in a local level, that is useful for other countries probably if studied objectively, but not on any 'world news' levels.

    As for Israel's actions. They are usually predictable, and even local politics has a similar predictable dynamic as America itself (liberal secular elite in opposition with more redneck population).

    Most Western media has the bias towards anti-Israel reportage

    Sorry, but that’s just a tiresome pro-Israel propaganda point. US mainstream media definitely has a pro-Israel bias. In Germany you’ve got the Springer media conglomerate which actually obliges employees in their contracts to report positively about Israel (!). In Britain outlets like the Daily Telegraph are also quite pro-Israel. I don’t know how it’s in France, Italy etc., but I doubt all media there is anti-Israel.
    Are some Western media anti-Israel? Sure. But I still think that Israel gets away with way more dubious stuff than any Western country would (one just has to compare how demonized Poland and Hungary are). Those complaints about hostile media are just another manifestation of the Israelis’ “the entire world is full of antisemites who are against us for no reason at all” complex. Not credible anymore.

    Read More
    • Agree: Bigly
    • Replies: @Talha
    Completely agree; they allow Israeli government officials and ambassadors free air time to ask their views on things and throw them softball questions. Nobody else gets away with that kind of nonsense. The idea that US media is anti-Israel is complete nonsense.

    Here is Slick Bibi:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MUT4fjmYIwI

    And Ambassador Happy Boy:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zX5d-fJLvb0

    Peace.
    , @Dmitry
    Most of the stories published on Western newspaper websites I read (for example when there is a terrorist attack), are in fact written with anti-Israel bias.

    You do not know this, as you do not know about the subject. However, I read the original story, and then later the version which is published in BBC website or New York Times. There will usually be context removed or additional irrelevant content added to create a view of condemnation.

    In Russian language media (serious media), the situation is a lot better and more dispassionate, without this one-sided style of writing, but just reporting the facts. At the same time, they troll sometimes in the picture selection. It is curious when Russian language media has become more reliable than English language on some topics.

    The most unreliable one to read any story on Israel is New York Times, BBC.

    You can see the media corrections which Israeli NGOs are working on. Notice the corrections are only read by very few people, while original stories read by many
    http://www.camera.org/article/topic/media-corrections/

    The funniest story I read on Israe was claiming that Israel opens a river dam to flood Gaza Strip. When I first read it, I originally believed myself (for a few seconds). And was checking quickly if there is any river near Gaza (no river)

    https://www.timesofisrael.com/false-israel-drowns-gaza-claims-sweep-internet/
    , @LondonBob
    The British media used to be relatively critical of Israel, well some left wing sections. These days there seems to be some sort of ban on any reporting on Palestine unless something major happens and they have to. Given the British history of Jewish terrorism and strong pro Palestinian position of people it is depressing only RT seems to reflect British public opinion.
    , @inertial

    But I still think that Israel gets away with way more dubious stuff than any Western country would (one just has to compare how demonized Poland and Hungary are)
     
    But Poland and Hungary are not demonized. Their current governments are. Incidentally, Netanyahu's election and reelection back in the day cause an almost Trump level of butthurt among the New York Times types.

    As for getting away with stuff, in my opinion, among the white and relatively civilized places, Estonia and Latvia get away with far worse things than Israel. The Ukraine too, in recent years.
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  27. Talha says:
    @German_reader

    Most Western media has the bias towards anti-Israel reportage
     
    Sorry, but that's just a tiresome pro-Israel propaganda point. US mainstream media definitely has a pro-Israel bias. In Germany you've got the Springer media conglomerate which actually obliges employees in their contracts to report positively about Israel (!). In Britain outlets like the Daily Telegraph are also quite pro-Israel. I don't know how it's in France, Italy etc., but I doubt all media there is anti-Israel.
    Are some Western media anti-Israel? Sure. But I still think that Israel gets away with way more dubious stuff than any Western country would (one just has to compare how demonized Poland and Hungary are). Those complaints about hostile media are just another manifestation of the Israelis' "the entire world is full of antisemites who are against us for no reason at all" complex. Not credible anymore.

    Completely agree; they allow Israeli government officials and ambassadors free air time to ask their views on things and throw them softball questions. Nobody else gets away with that kind of nonsense. The idea that US media is anti-Israel is complete nonsense.

    Here is Slick Bibi:

    And Ambassador Happy Boy:

    Peace.

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  28. @Dmitry

    It is not just that the Western media can be relied up never to criticise any action Israel takes however wrong or outrageous it might be.
     
    Kind of a dumb comment (not from our venerable Karlin, but this guy he quotes).

    Most Western media has the bias towards anti-Israel reportage and also is obsessed with small stories in there that no-one would care about in another country - which is what creates a lot of obsession and anger, like on this website, from people who know nothing of the region, or even care particularly about Arab eudaimonia.

    It's not on the same level as the Russophobia in the media, but has a kind of similar taste.

    When you are there (to live some months in Israel itself), you rapidly realize that not so much is actually happening there. It is quite a safe place overall. Even in terms of oppressed populations. Many Arabs are living richly there, living in large houses, and sitting outside in restaurant patios at expensive restaurants.

    Interesting situation of conflicts in a local level, that is useful for other countries probably if studied objectively, but not on any 'world news' levels.

    As for Israel's actions. They are usually predictable, and even local politics has a similar predictable dynamic as America itself (liberal secular elite in opposition with more redneck population).

    Mercouris might be thinking of Anglo media, which indeed does not criticize Israel much. The situation on the Continent (besides Germany) is quite different, where Israel is increasingly associated with “racism”, “apartheid”, and other allegedly very evil things.

    Most Western media has the bias towards anti-Israel reportage and also is obsessed with small stories in there that no-one would care about in another country – which is what creates a lot of obsession and anger, like on this website, from people who know nothing of the region, or even care particularly about Arab eudaimonia.

    This is a very weird tendency which is quite common, and it’s not just the media. There are many people with zero skin in the game (neither Jewish, Arabalonian, Mohammedan, nor Nazi) who are absolutely obsessed with Israel and Palestine.

    There was a politics forum I used to frequent with many such characters. I remember in particular a Dutchman and an Australian who were both pathologically obsessed with Israel and discussed almost nothing else. They were fervent anti-Zionists, and they weren’t antisemites either (both, of course, were strongly opposed to racism). I accused the Australian of being a Mohammedan, and he was surprised at the accusation and couldn’t understand why it was made.

    When pressed, such people will simply claim they’re opposed to colonialism, imperialism, racism, apartheid, etc. and other allegedly really evil things. But if you ask them what they think about the oppression of the Polisarios, Acehnese, Tamils, or whatever they draw a complete blank.

    An amusing trolling strategy when drawn into such a discussion is to state that you support the restoration of Outremer–the only question being whether you support the Hapsburg or Bourbon claim to the Kingdom of Jerusalem (naturally, only a barbarian would support the Lignese Savoyard claim…). :)

    That said you should distinguish between Israel proper and the Occupied Territories. The situation in the Occupied Territories is much worse for the Arabalonians than it is in Israel proper.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Dmitry

    There was a politics forum I used to frequent with many such characters. I remember in particular a Dutchman and an Australian who were both pathologically obsessed with Israel and discussed almost nothing else. They were fervent anti-Zionists, and they weren’t antisemites either (both, of course, were strongly opposed to racism). I accused the Australian of being a Mohammedan, and he was surprised at the accusation and couldn’t understand why it was made.

    When pressed, such people will simply claim they’re opposed to colonialism, imperialism, racism, apartheid, etc. and other allegedly really evil things. But if you ask them what they think about the oppression of the Polisarios, Acehnese, Tamils, or whatever they draw a complete blank.
     
    It is human nature. Especially for these people, it is a type of entertainment.

    Some or even many people living in safe, wealthy countries need a area where they become angry about something, and therefore excite themselves. At the moment, some political areas are 'more safe' or socially acceptable in media to be angry about, depending on the countries in which you live. In Western Europe media, probably most popular topics people are angry about are Russia, America and Israel. It's not racism, except in deciding what is a 'socially acceptable' area to be angry. It's not socially accepted to be angry about South Africa yet, or about Mexico or Sudan. (There may be some who will start to become angry at China soon?)

    If you remove current socially acceptable countries, they will replace it with another country. I would believe before the 1990s, South Africa was the most popular in the group of topics people were angry about. Although 'angry' is maybe not the correct word - it is more like an area for people to forget their problems, and entertain themselves and to feel morally better than others.
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  29. utu says:

    Are some Western media anti-Israel? Sure.

    Give me an example of one. Check this out.

    TOP 5 MOST EGREGIOUS ANTI-ISRAEL HEADLINES IN THE INTERNATIONAL MEDIA

    https://www.jpost.com/Arab-Israeli-Conflict/Top-5-most-egregious-anti-Israel-headlines-in-the-international-media-464351

    1. “Tel Aviv shooting: Three killed in attack in shopping center” (BBC)

    2. “3 Palestinians killed as daily violence grinds on.” (CBS)

    3. “4 Israelis, 2 Palestinians dead in Jerusalem” (CNN)

    4. “Palestinian shot dead after fatal stabbing in Jerusalem; 2 Israeli victims also killed” (Al Jazeera)

    5. “Jordan slams Israel after radical Jews visit Islamic holy site” (AFP)

    Are we dealing with normal people? Does Zionism and Judaism inevitable lead to psychosis?

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    • Replies: @Talha
    That is insane. Wow!

    Peace.
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  30. Talha says:
    @utu

    Are some Western media anti-Israel? Sure.
     
    Give me an example of one. Check this out.

    TOP 5 MOST EGREGIOUS ANTI-ISRAEL HEADLINES IN THE INTERNATIONAL MEDIA
    https://www.jpost.com/Arab-Israeli-Conflict/Top-5-most-egregious-anti-Israel-headlines-in-the-international-media-464351

    1. "Tel Aviv shooting: Three killed in attack in shopping center" (BBC)

    2. “3 Palestinians killed as daily violence grinds on.” (CBS)

    3. “4 Israelis, 2 Palestinians dead in Jerusalem" (CNN)

    4. "Palestinian shot dead after fatal stabbing in Jerusalem; 2 Israeli victims also killed" (Al Jazeera)

    5. "Jordan slams Israel after radical Jews visit Islamic holy site" (AFP)
     
    Are we dealing with normal people? Does Zionism and Judaism inevitable lead to psychosis?

    That is insane. Wow!

    Peace.

    Read More
    • Replies: @utu
    What they would like is that instead of the headline stating e.g., "Two Palestinians killed" it should be stated that the two Palestinians had it coming, they were terrorist and so on. Otherwise they will call it "MOST EGREGIOUS ANTI-ISRAEL HEADLINES." Certainly they want a total control but one may still hope there is an element of bad conscience involved. They want to look better than they are which is normal among humans after all and they still care about what we think and feel about them. Meaning, that it can be or it will be worse.

    There is an army of busybodies who keep exerting pressure on media through typical Jewish activism and many think tanks that coordinate their efforts and it is not surprising that they are succeeding. One may wonder how many calls, tweets and so on a media outlet gets after stating "Two Palestinians killed" instead of "Two Palestinian terrorists killed." It is hard to resits the onslaught. The coverage of Israel Arab conflict is less and less free. I do not even remember any reporting that had even a small hint of outrage at Israel's action. We also know that underreporting is their main tool when they really go beyond the pale like during the recent turkey shoot at the border. Then the alleged Ghouta gas attack took it off the news.
    , @Gabriel M
    Let's review:

    1) 'Three killed in shooting' = not the worst way of spinning it perhaps, but obviously an attempt to downplay the nature and seriousness of the incident.

    2) “3 Palestinians killed as daily violence grinds on.” (CBS). Reporting Palestinians being killed in the process of attemting to murder Israelis' as '3 Palestinians killed' sure seems biased to me.

    3) "“4 Israelis, 2 Palestinians dead in Jerusalem: Same. The 2 Palestinians were killed in the act of successfully murdering Israelis. Where else in the entire world are terrorist attacks reported in this way?

    4) “Palestinian shot dead after fatal stabbing in Jerusalem; 2 Israeli victims also killed” Kind of seems an odd way of reporting it.

    5) “Jordan slams Israel after radical Jews visit Islamic holy site” . Now this really is disgusting. Yes it's an Islamic holy site. The 3rd holiest site. One can quibble about the fact that it is never mentioned once in the Koran and the basis of its holiness is the the obviously silly claim that Mohammed flew their on a f**king magic horse. But fine it's your holy site. Well it's also some other people's holy site too. Their most holy site and before they visit they are searched by Israeli police for prayer articles (in contravention of Israeli law which mandates freedom of religion). They are prevented from bringing water lest they say a blessing before drinking it. They are harangued by mobs of Arabs with EU-bought camera equipment trying to goad them into actions they can video and they are surrounded by armed police who will arrest them if they do anything that looks like it might be praying.
    Meanwhile, after two Palestinians burst out of the Temple Mount and murdered two (not Jewish, Druze) Israeli policeman, the Israelis put up metal detectors to stop Arabs bringing weapons into their 'holy site' you throw a s**t fit. https://www.jpost.com/Israel-News/Politics-And-Diplomacy/Israel-removes-Temple-Mount-metal-detectors-that-enraged-the-Muslim-world-500663

    But it's we wh0 have a psychosis. Muslim moderate indeed.
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  31. Bigly says:
    @blahbahblah

    In any case, Putin never even reacted to the outright American murders of Russian mercenaries in Syria
     
    You refer to this from time to time but I wish you'd write a blog post detailing why you actually believe there have been a mass of Russian mercenaries(as in more than 30 in that incident) killed in Syria... because I don't buy it.

    http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/american-fury-the-truth-about-the-russian-deaths-in-syria-a-1196074.html

    You refer to this from time to time but I wish you’d write a blog post detailing why you actually believe there have been a mass of Russian mercenaries(as in more than 30 in that incident) killed in Syria… because I don’t buy it.

    http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/american-fury-the-truth-about-the-russian-deaths-in-syria-a-1196074.html

    This article should be circulated more widely.

    Hundreds of Russian mercs killed by the Americans is a demoralizing disinformation.

    On top of that Spiegel investigation, competent open source intel organizations based in Russia which were quick to start naming the victims have come up with less than 30 names of Russian citizens killed after a month of the event, corroborating Spiegel’s findings.

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  32. Dmitry says:
    @German_reader

    Most Western media has the bias towards anti-Israel reportage
     
    Sorry, but that's just a tiresome pro-Israel propaganda point. US mainstream media definitely has a pro-Israel bias. In Germany you've got the Springer media conglomerate which actually obliges employees in their contracts to report positively about Israel (!). In Britain outlets like the Daily Telegraph are also quite pro-Israel. I don't know how it's in France, Italy etc., but I doubt all media there is anti-Israel.
    Are some Western media anti-Israel? Sure. But I still think that Israel gets away with way more dubious stuff than any Western country would (one just has to compare how demonized Poland and Hungary are). Those complaints about hostile media are just another manifestation of the Israelis' "the entire world is full of antisemites who are against us for no reason at all" complex. Not credible anymore.

    Most of the stories published on Western newspaper websites I read (for example when there is a terrorist attack), are in fact written with anti-Israel bias.

    You do not know this, as you do not know about the subject. However, I read the original story, and then later the version which is published in BBC website or New York Times. There will usually be context removed or additional irrelevant content added to create a view of condemnation.

    In Russian language media (serious media), the situation is a lot better and more dispassionate, without this one-sided style of writing, but just reporting the facts. At the same time, they troll sometimes in the picture selection. It is curious when Russian language media has become more reliable than English language on some topics.

    The most unreliable one to read any story on Israel is New York Times, BBC.

    You can see the media corrections which Israeli NGOs are working on. Notice the corrections are only read by very few people, while original stories read by many

    http://www.camera.org/article/topic/media-corrections/

    The funniest story I read on Israe was claiming that Israel opens a river dam to flood Gaza Strip. When I first read it, I originally believed myself (for a few seconds). And was checking quickly if there is any river near Gaza (no river)

    https://www.timesofisrael.com/false-israel-drowns-gaza-claims-sweep-internet/

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    • Replies: @German_reader

    Notice the corrections are only read by very few people
     
    I looked at the first page of that camera.org site...it contains corrections for such "outrageous" statements as implicitly referring to Tel Aviv instead of Jerusalem as Israel's capital...lol.
    I don't even dispute that some media reports have an anti-Israel bias. But most of Western media reporting? Definitely not. At the very least, the anti-Israel side is more than balanced by media pushing pro-Israel views.
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  33. @Dmitry
    Most of the stories published on Western newspaper websites I read (for example when there is a terrorist attack), are in fact written with anti-Israel bias.

    You do not know this, as you do not know about the subject. However, I read the original story, and then later the version which is published in BBC website or New York Times. There will usually be context removed or additional irrelevant content added to create a view of condemnation.

    In Russian language media (serious media), the situation is a lot better and more dispassionate, without this one-sided style of writing, but just reporting the facts. At the same time, they troll sometimes in the picture selection. It is curious when Russian language media has become more reliable than English language on some topics.

    The most unreliable one to read any story on Israel is New York Times, BBC.

    You can see the media corrections which Israeli NGOs are working on. Notice the corrections are only read by very few people, while original stories read by many
    http://www.camera.org/article/topic/media-corrections/

    The funniest story I read on Israe was claiming that Israel opens a river dam to flood Gaza Strip. When I first read it, I originally believed myself (for a few seconds). And was checking quickly if there is any river near Gaza (no river)

    https://www.timesofisrael.com/false-israel-drowns-gaza-claims-sweep-internet/

    Notice the corrections are only read by very few people

    I looked at the first page of that camera.org site…it contains corrections for such “outrageous” statements as implicitly referring to Tel Aviv instead of Jerusalem as Israel’s capital…lol.
    I don’t even dispute that some media reports have an anti-Israel bias. But most of Western media reporting? Definitely not. At the very least, the anti-Israel side is more than balanced by media pushing pro-Israel views.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Dmitry
    Tel Aviv isn't really a capital (there is no government functions or capital functions in the city). However, it is acceptable to call it the capital of Israel (this is common since Soviet times). Not an important correction.

    But on the bottom you can press the page number buttons, and see endless corrections on every kind of topic that are made, for years, and some are on the most important part of the story.

    I notice myself when I read the stories, how much is removed from the original versions. That doesn’t say there is not media which goes in the other direction of too positive to Israel (Fox News). Even that is kind of weird and unhealthy (how obsessed with Israel, although for positive reasons).

    The reality in Israel is a lot less exciting (in most weeks - not this week!) – in both positive and negative directions – than the media coverage. . If the media has an honest perspective, it would be reporting on more interesting stories around the world in most weeks.
    , @Thorfinnsson
    You probably read German media and Anglo media.

    There's a much stronger anti-Israel angle in Swedish media as an example. I don't speak French, but my father does and reports that French media is a lot harsher on Israel than our press is (perhaps French Basque can confirm).

    And Jerusalem is the capital of Israel--it's factually incorrect to claim it's not. It's just not the "international recognized" capital because of the insane modern custom not to accept the Right of Conquest.
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  34. Dmitry says:
    @German_reader

    Notice the corrections are only read by very few people
     
    I looked at the first page of that camera.org site...it contains corrections for such "outrageous" statements as implicitly referring to Tel Aviv instead of Jerusalem as Israel's capital...lol.
    I don't even dispute that some media reports have an anti-Israel bias. But most of Western media reporting? Definitely not. At the very least, the anti-Israel side is more than balanced by media pushing pro-Israel views.

    Tel Aviv isn’t really a capital (there is no government functions or capital functions in the city). However, it is acceptable to call it the capital of Israel (this is common since Soviet times). Not an important correction.

    But on the bottom you can press the page number buttons, and see endless corrections on every kind of topic that are made, for years, and some are on the most important part of the story.

    I notice myself when I read the stories, how much is removed from the original versions. That doesn’t say there is not media which goes in the other direction of too positive to Israel (Fox News). Even that is kind of weird and unhealthy (how obsessed with Israel, although for positive reasons).

    The reality in Israel is a lot less exciting (in most weeks – not this week!) – in both positive and negative directions – than the media coverage. . If the media has an honest perspective, it would be reporting on more interesting stories around the world in most weeks.

    Read More
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  35. @German_reader

    Notice the corrections are only read by very few people
     
    I looked at the first page of that camera.org site...it contains corrections for such "outrageous" statements as implicitly referring to Tel Aviv instead of Jerusalem as Israel's capital...lol.
    I don't even dispute that some media reports have an anti-Israel bias. But most of Western media reporting? Definitely not. At the very least, the anti-Israel side is more than balanced by media pushing pro-Israel views.

    You probably read German media and Anglo media.

    There’s a much stronger anti-Israel angle in Swedish media as an example. I don’t speak French, but my father does and reports that French media is a lot harsher on Israel than our press is (perhaps French Basque can confirm).

    And Jerusalem is the capital of Israel–it’s factually incorrect to claim it’s not. It’s just not the “international recognized” capital because of the insane modern custom not to accept the Right of Conquest.

    Read More
    • Replies: @German_reader

    There’s a much stronger anti-Israel angle in Swedish media as an example
     
    No offense, but who cares what Swedes think? Sweden is more of a meme than a country anyway, and they also were strongly against South Africa in the old days, so at least they're consistent in their self-righteousness regarding foreign conflicts that shouldn't be of interest to them.
    You may be right about French media. I'm just critical in general about claims of anti-Israeli bias...in the cases where I can check it, I find such accusations to be often exaggerated. And tbh I just can't stand most of the people in Western countries who are big defenders of Israel. They usually are dumb, unpleasant fanatics who present a ridiculously one-sided view of the conflict ("tiny little Israel which never did anything wrong, valiantly defending itself against a sea of unthinking hatred...and oh btw, Palestinians don't exist, they are an invented people!"), just as bad as the worst pro-Palestinian activists. Often also totally pc and "antiracist" on other matters...e.g. one of the biggest friends of Israel I've exchanged views with was a stupid CDU cuck...actually a member of the German-Israeli society...back in 2015 he then went on how he needed to report people to police because they had made racist statements against "refugees" on the net...
    For me, complaints about supposed anti-Israel bias are just another manifestation of "antiracism" and attempts to maintain taboos in discourse. Therefore I reject them.
    , @French Basque

    I don’t speak French, but my father does and reports that French media is a lot harsher on Israel than ours is.
     
    Bravo to your father. Also what he told you is true, which is quite surprising if one considers the almost total J control on French mainstream media. I don’t remember the exact breakout from the top of my head, but it’s eaay to find the numbers on the internet. Out of the 6 or 7 media conglomerates that totally dominate the mediascene here, at least half of then are owned by Js (Draghi, Niel, etc.) or Maranos (Dassault). On top of that, the deck of hosts on public radio (France Inter/France Info) sounds like it is radio Tel Aviv. And yet, despite that, the general tone is more often than not pro-Palestinians rather than pro-Israelis. It is I believe a legacy of the overall sovok sympathies of the French journalistic caste.

    However regarding the domestic narrative it is an entirely different story. If you listened to France Info regularly you would end up believing that some right wing takeover of the country was about to happen and that 6 million Js were going to be sent to Le Stuthof.
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  36. Dmitry says:
    @Thorfinnsson
    Mercouris might be thinking of Anglo media, which indeed does not criticize Israel much. The situation on the Continent (besides Germany) is quite different, where Israel is increasingly associated with "racism", "apartheid", and other allegedly very evil things.

    Most Western media has the bias towards anti-Israel reportage and also is obsessed with small stories in there that no-one would care about in another country – which is what creates a lot of obsession and anger, like on this website, from people who know nothing of the region, or even care particularly about Arab eudaimonia.
     

    This is a very weird tendency which is quite common, and it's not just the media. There are many people with zero skin in the game (neither Jewish, Arabalonian, Mohammedan, nor Nazi) who are absolutely obsessed with Israel and Palestine.

    There was a politics forum I used to frequent with many such characters. I remember in particular a Dutchman and an Australian who were both pathologically obsessed with Israel and discussed almost nothing else. They were fervent anti-Zionists, and they weren't antisemites either (both, of course, were strongly opposed to racism). I accused the Australian of being a Mohammedan, and he was surprised at the accusation and couldn't understand why it was made.

    When pressed, such people will simply claim they're opposed to colonialism, imperialism, racism, apartheid, etc. and other allegedly really evil things. But if you ask them what they think about the oppression of the Polisarios, Acehnese, Tamils, or whatever they draw a complete blank.

    An amusing trolling strategy when drawn into such a discussion is to state that you support the restoration of Outremer--the only question being whether you support the Hapsburg or Bourbon claim to the Kingdom of Jerusalem (naturally, only a barbarian would support the Lignese Savoyard claim...). :)

    That said you should distinguish between Israel proper and the Occupied Territories. The situation in the Occupied Territories is much worse for the Arabalonians than it is in Israel proper.

    There was a politics forum I used to frequent with many such characters. I remember in particular a Dutchman and an Australian who were both pathologically obsessed with Israel and discussed almost nothing else. They were fervent anti-Zionists, and they weren’t antisemites either (both, of course, were strongly opposed to racism). I accused the Australian of being a Mohammedan, and he was surprised at the accusation and couldn’t understand why it was made.

    When pressed, such people will simply claim they’re opposed to colonialism, imperialism, racism, apartheid, etc. and other allegedly really evil things. But if you ask them what they think about the oppression of the Polisarios, Acehnese, Tamils, or whatever they draw a complete blank.

    It is human nature. Especially for these people, it is a type of entertainment.

    Some or even many people living in safe, wealthy countries need a area where they become angry about something, and therefore excite themselves. At the moment, some political areas are ‘more safe’ or socially acceptable in media to be angry about, depending on the countries in which you live. In Western Europe media, probably most popular topics people are angry about are Russia, America and Israel. It’s not racism, except in deciding what is a ‘socially acceptable’ area to be angry. It’s not socially accepted to be angry about South Africa yet, or about Mexico or Sudan. (There may be some who will start to become angry at China soon?)

    If you remove current socially acceptable countries, they will replace it with another country. I would believe before the 1990s, South Africa was the most popular in the group of topics people were angry about. Although ‘angry’ is maybe not the correct word – it is more like an area for people to forget their problems, and entertain themselves and to feel morally better than others.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    Agreed.

    People like feeling like they're fighting on behalf of a righteous cause, probably particularly Westerners. And people like being engaged and entertained. I can recall some times when I was a younger man where I confronted people (correctly) about some moral/righteous issue (not distant nonsense like Israel, things that actually mattered) and pressed the matter beyond a sensible point because it felt good.

    The betrayal of South Africa was particularly appalling and a sore subject for me. I have a number of Afrikaner business associates and feel for them. I hope they find a way to take back their country. All of the white people who were activists against Apartheid deserve to be hanged. I'll give Jeremy Corbyn a pass since he triggers many of my enemies.
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  37. @Thorfinnsson
    You probably read German media and Anglo media.

    There's a much stronger anti-Israel angle in Swedish media as an example. I don't speak French, but my father does and reports that French media is a lot harsher on Israel than our press is (perhaps French Basque can confirm).

    And Jerusalem is the capital of Israel--it's factually incorrect to claim it's not. It's just not the "international recognized" capital because of the insane modern custom not to accept the Right of Conquest.

    There’s a much stronger anti-Israel angle in Swedish media as an example

    No offense, but who cares what Swedes think? Sweden is more of a meme than a country anyway, and they also were strongly against South Africa in the old days, so at least they’re consistent in their self-righteousness regarding foreign conflicts that shouldn’t be of interest to them.
    You may be right about French media. I’m just critical in general about claims of anti-Israeli bias…in the cases where I can check it, I find such accusations to be often exaggerated. And tbh I just can’t stand most of the people in Western countries who are big defenders of Israel. They usually are dumb, unpleasant fanatics who present a ridiculously one-sided view of the conflict (“tiny little Israel which never did anything wrong, valiantly defending itself against a sea of unthinking hatred…and oh btw, Palestinians don’t exist, they are an invented people!”), just as bad as the worst pro-Palestinian activists. Often also totally pc and “antiracist” on other matters…e.g. one of the biggest friends of Israel I’ve exchanged views with was a stupid CDU cuck…actually a member of the German-Israeli society…back in 2015 he then went on how he needed to report people to police because they had made racist statements against “refugees” on the net…
    For me, complaints about supposed anti-Israel bias are just another manifestation of “antiracism” and attempts to maintain taboos in discourse. Therefore I reject them.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Dmitry
    Doesn't seem to correspond to my observation in English. The anti-Israel bias is very strongly in the left or liberal media in the English (and Spanish) language. (And then the too pro-Israel bias is in Fox News).

    Maybe Germany is a reversal or paradox situation. (Actually these paradox and political reversal situation exists on other topics, across quite a lot of countries, so I can imagine this is an interesting case in Germany).

    Actually I would like to learn German in the future so maybe I can comment on this topic in a few years.
    , @utu

    No offense, but who cares what Swedes think? Sweden is more of a meme than a country anyway, and they also were strongly against South Africa in the old days, so at least they’re consistent in their self-righteousness regarding foreign conflicts that shouldn’t be of interest to them.
     
    Wow, this comes from the man who did not like AK's cynicism and Real Politik. I would give credit to Swedes for standing up for principles and for being consistent. Since Folke Bernadotte they showed they tried to be fair in Jewish-Arab conflict as a neutral country and their help they gave to Jews during and after WWII does not support claims of their anti-Jewish bias. Certainly they showed courage and consistence and did not cuck out even though their liberalism was used against them and they were flooded with Arab and Muslim immigrants. Was it expected that this would turn them away from supporting Palestinians and become Zionists cucks according with the enemy-of-my-enemy-is-my- friend mechanism? It does not look that it worked. But certainly Sweden is not what it was during the cold war and under Olof Palme government. Since then neoliberalism and Zionism expanded their grip on politics and people's minds in many countries partly because we had only one Sweden.
    , @Thorfinnsson

    No offense, but who cares what Swedes think? Sweden is more of a meme than a country anyway, and they also were strongly against South Africa in the old days, so at least they’re consistent in their self-righteousness regarding foreign conflicts that shouldn’t be of interest to them.
     
    :(

    My poor urheimat...
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  38. Glossy says: • Website

    So what? It means Karlin is a Jew lover and a neocon cockroach. That’s what.

    Read More
    • LOL: Anatoly Karlin
    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    You're a complete, utter, total loser.

    And have no sense of objectivity.

    Get bent.
    , @Anonymous

    So what? It means Karlin is a Jew lover and a neocon cockroach. That’s what.
     
    But didn’t this neocon cockroach support Zhirinovsky in the last election? Zhirinovsky, although Jewish, has views somewhere between The Saker and Israel Shamir last time I checked.
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  39. @Dmitry

    There was a politics forum I used to frequent with many such characters. I remember in particular a Dutchman and an Australian who were both pathologically obsessed with Israel and discussed almost nothing else. They were fervent anti-Zionists, and they weren’t antisemites either (both, of course, were strongly opposed to racism). I accused the Australian of being a Mohammedan, and he was surprised at the accusation and couldn’t understand why it was made.

    When pressed, such people will simply claim they’re opposed to colonialism, imperialism, racism, apartheid, etc. and other allegedly really evil things. But if you ask them what they think about the oppression of the Polisarios, Acehnese, Tamils, or whatever they draw a complete blank.
     
    It is human nature. Especially for these people, it is a type of entertainment.

    Some or even many people living in safe, wealthy countries need a area where they become angry about something, and therefore excite themselves. At the moment, some political areas are 'more safe' or socially acceptable in media to be angry about, depending on the countries in which you live. In Western Europe media, probably most popular topics people are angry about are Russia, America and Israel. It's not racism, except in deciding what is a 'socially acceptable' area to be angry. It's not socially accepted to be angry about South Africa yet, or about Mexico or Sudan. (There may be some who will start to become angry at China soon?)

    If you remove current socially acceptable countries, they will replace it with another country. I would believe before the 1990s, South Africa was the most popular in the group of topics people were angry about. Although 'angry' is maybe not the correct word - it is more like an area for people to forget their problems, and entertain themselves and to feel morally better than others.

    Agreed.

    People like feeling like they’re fighting on behalf of a righteous cause, probably particularly Westerners. And people like being engaged and entertained. I can recall some times when I was a younger man where I confronted people (correctly) about some moral/righteous issue (not distant nonsense like Israel, things that actually mattered) and pressed the matter beyond a sensible point because it felt good.

    The betrayal of South Africa was particularly appalling and a sore subject for me. I have a number of Afrikaner business associates and feel for them. I hope they find a way to take back their country. All of the white people who were activists against Apartheid deserve to be hanged. I’ll give Jeremy Corbyn a pass since he triggers many of my enemies.

    Read More
    • Agree: byrresheim
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  40. @Glossy
    So what? It means Karlin is a Jew lover and a neocon cockroach. That's what.

    You’re a complete, utter, total loser.

    And have no sense of objectivity.

    Get bent.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Glossy
    You must be another Jew lover and neocon cockroach.
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  41. songbird says:

    Sweden is more of a meme than a country anyway, and they also were strongly against South Africa in the old days, so at least they’re consistent in their self-righteousness regarding foreign conflicts

    I wonder how much of that is consistency, and how much of it is the growing Muslim population channeling Sweden’s natural leftism. I presume the natural, unadulterated Swedish feeling towards Jews would be guilt-ridden at having stayed neutral during the war, or at having so many blond and blue-eyed people. I don’t think that last is far fetched, as I recently read an article at a mainstream entertainment site by a Jewish writer which at one point lamented that there was a Swedish actor (blond and blue-eyed) in a TV show.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Dmitry

    Jews would be guilt-ridden at having stayed neutral during the war, or at having so many blond and blue-eyed people. I don’t think that last is far fetched,
     
    Have you been to Israel? I know Israel very well in a personal level. I am always surprised how many blonde people are there if you go out for a night (and how many brown people there, and even how many black people in not small proportion). That's why I laugh at people seeing Israel as a racial state - as both a criticism and a applaudation. For me it's (the Jews) one of the more multi-racial nationalities, and even often racially completely unlike from each other people in the same groups, pretending to be all the same.

    I also read a lot about 'ethnostate' (as positive for Israel). It is the world's least successful 'ethnostate'. Walking five minutes in somewhere like Spain or Poland - you see a far more mono-racial and homogenous 'ethnostate'. If you walk for five minutes in Israel, you see about ten different coloured people.

    Also in Israel the interracial (but not inter-religious) couples are more common in my view there, than countries I have seen. So it would be very upsetting for ethnostate people to see this. If you want to see brown guys with blonde girlfriends. And even light guys with black African girlfriends.

    I think more accurate description for Israel is even a semi secular, semi theocracy-state, than as ethnostate. The people are divided according to religious categorization. But externally it results in the completely mix. For example, Arab Jews (who are looking identical to Arab Muslims) are on the opposite side of a fence, and even seeing themselves as enemies, to the Arab Muslims (who are physically their siblings).
    , @Thorfinnsson
    I can confirm that Swedes feel guilty about staying neutral during the war. I routinely argue with my family members about this, as to me it's clear Sweden's WW2 policy was wise and successful.
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  42. Dmitry says:
    @German_reader

    There’s a much stronger anti-Israel angle in Swedish media as an example
     
    No offense, but who cares what Swedes think? Sweden is more of a meme than a country anyway, and they also were strongly against South Africa in the old days, so at least they're consistent in their self-righteousness regarding foreign conflicts that shouldn't be of interest to them.
    You may be right about French media. I'm just critical in general about claims of anti-Israeli bias...in the cases where I can check it, I find such accusations to be often exaggerated. And tbh I just can't stand most of the people in Western countries who are big defenders of Israel. They usually are dumb, unpleasant fanatics who present a ridiculously one-sided view of the conflict ("tiny little Israel which never did anything wrong, valiantly defending itself against a sea of unthinking hatred...and oh btw, Palestinians don't exist, they are an invented people!"), just as bad as the worst pro-Palestinian activists. Often also totally pc and "antiracist" on other matters...e.g. one of the biggest friends of Israel I've exchanged views with was a stupid CDU cuck...actually a member of the German-Israeli society...back in 2015 he then went on how he needed to report people to police because they had made racist statements against "refugees" on the net...
    For me, complaints about supposed anti-Israel bias are just another manifestation of "antiracism" and attempts to maintain taboos in discourse. Therefore I reject them.

    Doesn’t seem to correspond to my observation in English. The anti-Israel bias is very strongly in the left or liberal media in the English (and Spanish) language. (And then the too pro-Israel bias is in Fox News).

    Maybe Germany is a reversal or paradox situation. (Actually these paradox and political reversal situation exists on other topics, across quite a lot of countries, so I can imagine this is an interesting case in Germany).

    Actually I would like to learn German in the future so maybe I can comment on this topic in a few years.

    Read More
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  43. utu says:
    @German_reader

    There’s a much stronger anti-Israel angle in Swedish media as an example
     
    No offense, but who cares what Swedes think? Sweden is more of a meme than a country anyway, and they also were strongly against South Africa in the old days, so at least they're consistent in their self-righteousness regarding foreign conflicts that shouldn't be of interest to them.
    You may be right about French media. I'm just critical in general about claims of anti-Israeli bias...in the cases where I can check it, I find such accusations to be often exaggerated. And tbh I just can't stand most of the people in Western countries who are big defenders of Israel. They usually are dumb, unpleasant fanatics who present a ridiculously one-sided view of the conflict ("tiny little Israel which never did anything wrong, valiantly defending itself against a sea of unthinking hatred...and oh btw, Palestinians don't exist, they are an invented people!"), just as bad as the worst pro-Palestinian activists. Often also totally pc and "antiracist" on other matters...e.g. one of the biggest friends of Israel I've exchanged views with was a stupid CDU cuck...actually a member of the German-Israeli society...back in 2015 he then went on how he needed to report people to police because they had made racist statements against "refugees" on the net...
    For me, complaints about supposed anti-Israel bias are just another manifestation of "antiracism" and attempts to maintain taboos in discourse. Therefore I reject them.

    No offense, but who cares what Swedes think? Sweden is more of a meme than a country anyway, and they also were strongly against South Africa in the old days, so at least they’re consistent in their self-righteousness regarding foreign conflicts that shouldn’t be of interest to them.

    Wow, this comes from the man who did not like AK’s cynicism and Real Politik. I would give credit to Swedes for standing up for principles and for being consistent. Since Folke Bernadotte they showed they tried to be fair in Jewish-Arab conflict as a neutral country and their help they gave to Jews during and after WWII does not support claims of their anti-Jewish bias. Certainly they showed courage and consistence and did not cuck out even though their liberalism was used against them and they were flooded with Arab and Muslim immigrants. Was it expected that this would turn them away from supporting Palestinians and become Zionists cucks according with the enemy-of-my-enemy-is-my- friend mechanism? It does not look that it worked. But certainly Sweden is not what it was during the cold war and under Olof Palme government. Since then neoliberalism and Zionism expanded their grip on politics and people’s minds in many countries partly because we had only one Sweden.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha

    Since Folke Bernadotte
     
    Swedes like my mother in law are still pissed off that a bunch of Zionist yahoos had the gall to murder him after his role in helping vulnerable Jewish prisoners.

    Peace.
    , @German_reader

    Since Folke Bernadotte they showed they tried to be fair in Jewish-Arab conflict
     
    No point in that imo. As far as I'm concerned, both Israel and the Palestinians can go to hell. Yes, the Palestinians suffered a serious injustice, and yes, it's understandable Jews want their own state after their history as a horribly persecuted minority. But in the end, I find both sides thoroughly immoral and unpleasant...both the Palestinians with their Islamism and terrorism and the Israelis with their demented, religion-infused nationalism and land-grabbing greed are appalling. And both the Palestinians' and Israelis' coethnics and coreligionists in the West are actively working against the interests of white Europeans. So screw both of them.
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  44. Dmitry says:
    @songbird

    Sweden is more of a meme than a country anyway, and they also were strongly against South Africa in the old days, so at least they’re consistent in their self-righteousness regarding foreign conflicts
     
    I wonder how much of that is consistency, and how much of it is the growing Muslim population channeling Sweden's natural leftism. I presume the natural, unadulterated Swedish feeling towards Jews would be guilt-ridden at having stayed neutral during the war, or at having so many blond and blue-eyed people. I don't think that last is far fetched, as I recently read an article at a mainstream entertainment site by a Jewish writer which at one point lamented that there was a Swedish actor (blond and blue-eyed) in a TV show.

    Jews would be guilt-ridden at having stayed neutral during the war, or at having so many blond and blue-eyed people. I don’t think that last is far fetched,

    Have you been to Israel? I know Israel very well in a personal level. I am always surprised how many blonde people are there if you go out for a night (and how many brown people there, and even how many black people in not small proportion). That’s why I laugh at people seeing Israel as a racial state – as both a criticism and a applaudation. For me it’s (the Jews) one of the more multi-racial nationalities, and even often racially completely unlike from each other people in the same groups, pretending to be all the same.

    I also read a lot about ‘ethnostate’ (as positive for Israel). It is the world’s least successful ‘ethnostate’. Walking five minutes in somewhere like Spain or Poland – you see a far more mono-racial and homogenous ‘ethnostate’. If you walk for five minutes in Israel, you see about ten different coloured people.

    Also in Israel the interracial (but not inter-religious) couples are more common in my view there, than countries I have seen. So it would be very upsetting for ethnostate people to see this. If you want to see brown guys with blonde girlfriends. And even light guys with black African girlfriends.

    I think more accurate description for Israel is even a semi secular, semi theocracy-state, than as ethnostate. The people are divided according to religious categorization. But externally it results in the completely mix. For example, Arab Jews (who are looking identical to Arab Muslims) are on the opposite side of a fence, and even seeing themselves as enemies, to the Arab Muslims (who are physically their siblings).

    Read More
    • Replies: @Dmitry
    As footnote - to go offtopic

    The people are divided according to religious categorization. But externally it results in the completely mix. For example, Arab Jews (who are looking identical to Arab Muslims) are on the opposite side of a fence, and even seeing themselves as enemies, to the Arab Muslims (who are physically their siblings).

     

    There's a song by an Arab Muslim (Palestinian) singer about this topic.

    He sings about the Mizrahi Israelis (Arab Jews) and calls them as 'Arabs who hate themselves', or Arabs who are scared to tell people they are Arabs (like homosexuals who are scared to tell people they are homosexuals). It is the most racist (to Arabs) demographic there.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6v0IWkYMX3s
    , @songbird

    Have you been to Israel?
     
    I'm not that well traveled. The article I was referring to was written by an American Jew. It was mostly an American site, with an international presence.

    If you're curious: I've actually never known a blond Jew (unless you count half-Jews) though I have known Jews married to blonds. Growing up, I knew many Jews - I'm pretty sure they were all Ashkenazi or Ashkenazi mix Most were pretty indistinguishable from Northern Europeans - one girl had red hair and blue eyes, but one fellow was small and dark and had curly hair. I'm pretty sure another was some sort of mulatto.

    Boston area has a fair amount of Jews. Mostly pretty indistinguishable from NW Euros. The odd one might evoke a Southern Italian or Greek. They don't speak with an accent, like NYC Jews typically seem to do.

    When I was in college I knew a girl from Israel. She had a very odd combination of features. Very pale skin - almost like some Irish. I was amazed that her parents (if they were both so pale) could withstand the Israeli sun. Her nose was very stereotypically Semitic though. Very large - not just large for a girl.
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  45. Dmitry says:
    @Dmitry

    Jews would be guilt-ridden at having stayed neutral during the war, or at having so many blond and blue-eyed people. I don’t think that last is far fetched,
     
    Have you been to Israel? I know Israel very well in a personal level. I am always surprised how many blonde people are there if you go out for a night (and how many brown people there, and even how many black people in not small proportion). That's why I laugh at people seeing Israel as a racial state - as both a criticism and a applaudation. For me it's (the Jews) one of the more multi-racial nationalities, and even often racially completely unlike from each other people in the same groups, pretending to be all the same.

    I also read a lot about 'ethnostate' (as positive for Israel). It is the world's least successful 'ethnostate'. Walking five minutes in somewhere like Spain or Poland - you see a far more mono-racial and homogenous 'ethnostate'. If you walk for five minutes in Israel, you see about ten different coloured people.

    Also in Israel the interracial (but not inter-religious) couples are more common in my view there, than countries I have seen. So it would be very upsetting for ethnostate people to see this. If you want to see brown guys with blonde girlfriends. And even light guys with black African girlfriends.

    I think more accurate description for Israel is even a semi secular, semi theocracy-state, than as ethnostate. The people are divided according to religious categorization. But externally it results in the completely mix. For example, Arab Jews (who are looking identical to Arab Muslims) are on the opposite side of a fence, and even seeing themselves as enemies, to the Arab Muslims (who are physically their siblings).

    As footnote – to go offtopic

    The people are divided according to religious categorization. But externally it results in the completely mix. For example, Arab Jews (who are looking identical to Arab Muslims) are on the opposite side of a fence, and even seeing themselves as enemies, to the Arab Muslims (who are physically their siblings).

    There’s a song by an Arab Muslim (Palestinian) singer about this topic.

    He sings about the Mizrahi Israelis (Arab Jews) and calls them as ‘Arabs who hate themselves’, or Arabs who are scared to tell people they are Arabs (like homosexuals who are scared to tell people they are homosexuals). It is the most racist (to Arabs) demographic there.

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  46. Talha says:
    @utu

    No offense, but who cares what Swedes think? Sweden is more of a meme than a country anyway, and they also were strongly against South Africa in the old days, so at least they’re consistent in their self-righteousness regarding foreign conflicts that shouldn’t be of interest to them.
     
    Wow, this comes from the man who did not like AK's cynicism and Real Politik. I would give credit to Swedes for standing up for principles and for being consistent. Since Folke Bernadotte they showed they tried to be fair in Jewish-Arab conflict as a neutral country and their help they gave to Jews during and after WWII does not support claims of their anti-Jewish bias. Certainly they showed courage and consistence and did not cuck out even though their liberalism was used against them and they were flooded with Arab and Muslim immigrants. Was it expected that this would turn them away from supporting Palestinians and become Zionists cucks according with the enemy-of-my-enemy-is-my- friend mechanism? It does not look that it worked. But certainly Sweden is not what it was during the cold war and under Olof Palme government. Since then neoliberalism and Zionism expanded their grip on politics and people's minds in many countries partly because we had only one Sweden.

    Since Folke Bernadotte

    Swedes like my mother in law are still pissed off that a bunch of Zionist yahoos had the gall to murder him after his role in helping vulnerable Jewish prisoners.

    Peace.

    Read More
    • Replies: @byrresheim
    That murder is all you need to know about the Israeli right wing.

    The horror.
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  47. songbird says:
    @Dmitry

    Jews would be guilt-ridden at having stayed neutral during the war, or at having so many blond and blue-eyed people. I don’t think that last is far fetched,
     
    Have you been to Israel? I know Israel very well in a personal level. I am always surprised how many blonde people are there if you go out for a night (and how many brown people there, and even how many black people in not small proportion). That's why I laugh at people seeing Israel as a racial state - as both a criticism and a applaudation. For me it's (the Jews) one of the more multi-racial nationalities, and even often racially completely unlike from each other people in the same groups, pretending to be all the same.

    I also read a lot about 'ethnostate' (as positive for Israel). It is the world's least successful 'ethnostate'. Walking five minutes in somewhere like Spain or Poland - you see a far more mono-racial and homogenous 'ethnostate'. If you walk for five minutes in Israel, you see about ten different coloured people.

    Also in Israel the interracial (but not inter-religious) couples are more common in my view there, than countries I have seen. So it would be very upsetting for ethnostate people to see this. If you want to see brown guys with blonde girlfriends. And even light guys with black African girlfriends.

    I think more accurate description for Israel is even a semi secular, semi theocracy-state, than as ethnostate. The people are divided according to religious categorization. But externally it results in the completely mix. For example, Arab Jews (who are looking identical to Arab Muslims) are on the opposite side of a fence, and even seeing themselves as enemies, to the Arab Muslims (who are physically their siblings).

    Have you been to Israel?

    I’m not that well traveled. The article I was referring to was written by an American Jew. It was mostly an American site, with an international presence.

    If you’re curious: I’ve actually never known a blond Jew (unless you count half-Jews) though I have known Jews married to blonds. Growing up, I knew many Jews – I’m pretty sure they were all Ashkenazi or Ashkenazi mix Most were pretty indistinguishable from Northern Europeans – one girl had red hair and blue eyes, but one fellow was small and dark and had curly hair. I’m pretty sure another was some sort of mulatto.

    Boston area has a fair amount of Jews. Mostly pretty indistinguishable from NW Euros. The odd one might evoke a Southern Italian or Greek. They don’t speak with an accent, like NYC Jews typically seem to do.

    When I was in college I knew a girl from Israel. She had a very odd combination of features. Very pale skin – almost like some Irish. I was amazed that her parents (if they were both so pale) could withstand the Israeli sun. Her nose was very stereotypically Semitic though. Very large – not just large for a girl.

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  48. Glossy says: • Website
    @Thorfinnsson
    You're a complete, utter, total loser.

    And have no sense of objectivity.

    Get bent.

    You must be another Jew lover and neocon cockroach.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    Yeah dude, you totally nailed it.
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  49. utu says:
    @Talha
    That is insane. Wow!

    Peace.

    What they would like is that instead of the headline stating e.g., “Two Palestinians killed” it should be stated that the two Palestinians had it coming, they were terrorist and so on. Otherwise they will call it “MOST EGREGIOUS ANTI-ISRAEL HEADLINES.” Certainly they want a total control but one may still hope there is an element of bad conscience involved. They want to look better than they are which is normal among humans after all and they still care about what we think and feel about them. Meaning, that it can be or it will be worse.

    There is an army of busybodies who keep exerting pressure on media through typical Jewish activism and many think tanks that coordinate their efforts and it is not surprising that they are succeeding. One may wonder how many calls, tweets and so on a media outlet gets after stating “Two Palestinians killed” instead of “Two Palestinian terrorists killed.” It is hard to resits the onslaught. The coverage of Israel Arab conflict is less and less free. I do not even remember any reporting that had even a small hint of outrage at Israel’s action. We also know that underreporting is their main tool when they really go beyond the pale like during the recent turkey shoot at the border. Then the alleged Ghouta gas attack took it off the news.

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    • Agree: Talha
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  50. Does Russia (and China) have reason to wish to avoid the destruction of Iran?
    I think yes.
    Is Bibi willing to stop at driving the Persians out of Syria?
    I think not.
    Should Putin go to war with Imperial Washington because he may be forced to do so to defend Russia in the future?
    Of course not.

    Turkey already has a foot in both camps. Germany is next. Peace threatens to break out on the Korean peninsula. The Zempire is in steep decline. Time is on the side of Russia, China and Iran.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Dmitry

    Does Russia (and China) have reason to wish to avoid the destruction of Iran?

     

    Destruction of Iran, of course is bad for Russia economically - although neither very plausible.

    Unilateral American sanctions on Iran. This will not be a large problem in the short-term, as Iran may become more dependent on purchasing from Russia. In the longer term, if it reduces their spending power, then it could be negative overall.

    If unilateral American sanctions reduce sales or production of Iranian oil, this could lead to an increase in oil prices all things equal.

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  51. If I were Putin, I would do everything in my power to lead Americans and Israelis to attack Iran. It would likely weaken western alliance as Europeans would see it is Iraq War 2.0. Since Iran is far more capable than Iraqis ever were, it would close Strait of Hormuz and badly damage Saudi oil facilities. Subsequent rise in oil prices would bolster Russian economy and piss off oil-importing nations (i.e. west European and east Asian countries) killing two flies with one hit. If Americans were crazy enough to actually go for regime change and deploy ground troops, all the better. Literally, nothing better can happen for Russia than the U.S. getting bogged down in yet another pointless war in the Middle East. Hell, if Putin had allowed the Americans to take down Assad in 2012 and 2013, the West would be busy dealing with the ensuing chaos and his hand would be much freer in Ukraine in 2014…

    Read More
    • Replies: @Mikhail

    If I were Putin, I would do everything in my power to lead Americans and Israelis to attack Iran. It would likely weaken western alliance as Europeans would see it is Iraq War 2.0. Since Iran is far more capable than Iraqis ever were, it would close Strait of Hormuz and badly damage Saudi oil facilities. Subsequent rise in oil prices would bolster Russian economy and piss off oil-importing nations (i.e. west European and east Asian countries) killing two flies with one hit. If Americans were crazy enough to actually go for regime change and deploy ground troops, all the better. Literally, nothing better can happen for Russia than the U.S. getting bogged down in yet another pointless war in the Middle East. Hell, if Putin had allowed the Americans to take down Assad in 2012 and 2013, the West would be busy dealing with the ensuing chaos and his hand would be much freer in Ukraine in 2014…
     
    Russia militarily intervened in Syria in 2015, with Ukraine spiraling out of control a year earlier.

    Putin saw what has transpired in Iraq and Libya. Syria involves terrorists who've Russia as a target. Rightly or wrongly, the Kremlin apparently feels strong enough to simultaneously deal with Ukraine and Syria.

    The first part of the above highlighted somewhat reminds me of the Machiavellian minded belief that Israel served Soviet interests in the Mideast, on the basis that the Arabs wanted an arms supplier to confront the Jewish state. Without Israel, there wouldn't be as much a need for the USSR went that logic.

    The Arabs haven't been able to succeed in that goal, in addition to Egypt (under Sadat) dumping the USSR. Israel is a reality that includes some common interests with Russia.
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  52. Dmitry says:
    @WorkingClass
    Does Russia (and China) have reason to wish to avoid the destruction of Iran?
    I think yes.
    Is Bibi willing to stop at driving the Persians out of Syria?
    I think not.
    Should Putin go to war with Imperial Washington because he may be forced to do so to defend Russia in the future?
    Of course not.

    Turkey already has a foot in both camps. Germany is next. Peace threatens to break out on the Korean peninsula. The Zempire is in steep decline. Time is on the side of Russia, China and Iran.

    Does Russia (and China) have reason to wish to avoid the destruction of Iran?

    Destruction of Iran, of course is bad for Russia economically – although neither very plausible.

    Unilateral American sanctions on Iran. This will not be a large problem in the short-term, as Iran may become more dependent on purchasing from Russia. In the longer term, if it reduces their spending power, then it could be negative overall.

    If unilateral American sanctions reduce sales or production of Iranian oil, this could lead to an increase in oil prices all things equal.

    Read More
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  53. @blahbahblah

    In any case, Putin never even reacted to the outright American murders of Russian mercenaries in Syria
     
    You refer to this from time to time but I wish you'd write a blog post detailing why you actually believe there have been a mass of Russian mercenaries(as in more than 30 in that incident) killed in Syria... because I don't buy it.

    http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/american-fury-the-truth-about-the-russian-deaths-in-syria-a-1196074.html

    In my articles on the Wagner affair (just search site:unz.com/akarlin wagner) I rejected both initial Kremlin propaganda that there were no deaths and Western/(+hysterical Russian nationalist) propaganda there were hundreds of deaths.

    In fact, my estimates (a few dozen deaths) were in the same ballpark as the later serious investigations.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Triptamine
    From what was written by Strelkov and co., the majority of the dead in the Wagner affair were mercenaries from the DNR. I.e. ethnic Russians, but not Russian citizens.
    , @Anonymous

    In my articles on the Wagner affair (just search site:unz.com/akarlin wagner) I rejected both initial Kremlin propaganda that there were no deaths and Western/(+hysterical Russian nationalist) propaganda there were hundreds of deaths.

    In fact, my estimates (a few dozen deaths) were in the same ballpark as the later serious investigations.
     

    And what makes any retaliation for these dozen or so Russian deaths problematic is that I read that the U.S. military ran the location of the mercs through the Russian military liaison and the Russian military effectively signed off on it by saying Russia had no military assets where the group was located. To retaliate or raise a stink about it after the fact would make the Russian military look incompetent.
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  54. @Anatoly Karlin
    In my articles on the Wagner affair (just search site:unz.com/akarlin wagner) I rejected both initial Kremlin propaganda that there were no deaths and Western/(+hysterical Russian nationalist) propaganda there were hundreds of deaths.

    In fact, my estimates (a few dozen deaths) were in the same ballpark as the later serious investigations.

    From what was written by Strelkov and co., the majority of the dead in the Wagner affair were mercenaries from the DNR. I.e. ethnic Russians, but not Russian citizens.

    Read More
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  55. Mikhail says: • Website

    Although US born, Netanyahu doesn’t carry on like such US supporters of Israel as Nikki Haley.

    https://www.eurasiareview.com/19042018-confronting-russia-in-syria-analysis/

    Far from being monolithic, the UN is subject to biases. Going back to the Cold War period, it was commonplace to hear pro-Israeli supporters in the US complain of biased UN resolutions and UN departments which slanted against the Jewish state. This sentiment lingers on. In the post-Soviet new world order, one finds some predominating biases against Russia at the UN. A point that relates to Russia’s stance on investigating the recently alleged chemical attack in Syria. It has been said that history has a way of repeating itself.

    Iran, Serbia, Israel and most other countries voted in favor of a Russian proposed UN resolution denouncing the glorification of Nazism. Canada, Kiev regime controlled Ukraine and the US were the only countries voting against it. A number of lackeys abstained with some others not showing up.

    As noted back in 2015:

    https://www.strategic-culture.org/news/2015/10/09/answering-russia-critics-on-syria.html

    Far from jumping into Syria without a carefully thought out plan, the Russian government has covered its angles well. This preparedness has included the meeting between Putin and Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu in Russia, shortly before the Russian airstrikes. Putin has followed with an acknowledgement that as a regional Mideast power, Israel has legitimate concerns which shouldn’t be overlooked.

    Netanyahu doesn’t see Russia in the same negative light as the Syrian government and (to a greater extent) its Lebanese Shiite Hezbollah and Iranian allies. Hence, he likely sees the Kremlin as a relatively good influence on an imperfect situation – with an understanding of what might regretfully happen if Syria’s government were to suddenly fall. In contrast to Netanyahu meeting Putin, the pro-Israeli Republican US presidential candidate Carly Fiorina, says that she would avoid Putin altogether in the role of American president. That stance serves to increase the possibility for an unintended conflict between Washington and Moscow.

    Read More
    • Replies: @for-the-record
    Although US born, Netanyahu

    He was born in Tel Aviv.
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  56. Mikhail says: • Website
    @Realist Altrighter
    If I were Putin, I would do everything in my power to lead Americans and Israelis to attack Iran. It would likely weaken western alliance as Europeans would see it is Iraq War 2.0. Since Iran is far more capable than Iraqis ever were, it would close Strait of Hormuz and badly damage Saudi oil facilities. Subsequent rise in oil prices would bolster Russian economy and piss off oil-importing nations (i.e. west European and east Asian countries) killing two flies with one hit. If Americans were crazy enough to actually go for regime change and deploy ground troops, all the better. Literally, nothing better can happen for Russia than the U.S. getting bogged down in yet another pointless war in the Middle East. Hell, if Putin had allowed the Americans to take down Assad in 2012 and 2013, the West would be busy dealing with the ensuing chaos and his hand would be much freer in Ukraine in 2014...

    If I were Putin, I would do everything in my power to lead Americans and Israelis to attack Iran. It would likely weaken western alliance as Europeans would see it is Iraq War 2.0. Since Iran is far more capable than Iraqis ever were, it would close Strait of Hormuz and badly damage Saudi oil facilities. Subsequent rise in oil prices would bolster Russian economy and piss off oil-importing nations (i.e. west European and east Asian countries) killing two flies with one hit. If Americans were crazy enough to actually go for regime change and deploy ground troops, all the better. Literally, nothing better can happen for Russia than the U.S. getting bogged down in yet another pointless war in the Middle East. Hell, if Putin had allowed the Americans to take down Assad in 2012 and 2013, the West would be busy dealing with the ensuing chaos and his hand would be much freer in Ukraine in 2014…

    Russia militarily intervened in Syria in 2015, with Ukraine spiraling out of control a year earlier.

    Putin saw what has transpired in Iraq and Libya. Syria involves terrorists who’ve Russia as a target. Rightly or wrongly, the Kremlin apparently feels strong enough to simultaneously deal with Ukraine and Syria.

    The first part of the above highlighted somewhat reminds me of the Machiavellian minded belief that Israel served Soviet interests in the Mideast, on the basis that the Arabs wanted an arms supplier to confront the Jewish state. Without Israel, there wouldn’t be as much a need for the USSR went that logic.

    The Arabs haven’t been able to succeed in that goal, in addition to Egypt (under Sadat) dumping the USSR. Israel is a reality that includes some common interests with Russia.

    Read More
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  57. Chuck says:

    Putin’s cucked. Like pretty much everyone else in the world.

    Including the leadership of the sand peoples…

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  58. @utu

    No offense, but who cares what Swedes think? Sweden is more of a meme than a country anyway, and they also were strongly against South Africa in the old days, so at least they’re consistent in their self-righteousness regarding foreign conflicts that shouldn’t be of interest to them.
     
    Wow, this comes from the man who did not like AK's cynicism and Real Politik. I would give credit to Swedes for standing up for principles and for being consistent. Since Folke Bernadotte they showed they tried to be fair in Jewish-Arab conflict as a neutral country and their help they gave to Jews during and after WWII does not support claims of their anti-Jewish bias. Certainly they showed courage and consistence and did not cuck out even though their liberalism was used against them and they were flooded with Arab and Muslim immigrants. Was it expected that this would turn them away from supporting Palestinians and become Zionists cucks according with the enemy-of-my-enemy-is-my- friend mechanism? It does not look that it worked. But certainly Sweden is not what it was during the cold war and under Olof Palme government. Since then neoliberalism and Zionism expanded their grip on politics and people's minds in many countries partly because we had only one Sweden.

    Since Folke Bernadotte they showed they tried to be fair in Jewish-Arab conflict

    No point in that imo. As far as I’m concerned, both Israel and the Palestinians can go to hell. Yes, the Palestinians suffered a serious injustice, and yes, it’s understandable Jews want their own state after their history as a horribly persecuted minority. But in the end, I find both sides thoroughly immoral and unpleasant…both the Palestinians with their Islamism and terrorism and the Israelis with their demented, religion-infused nationalism and land-grabbing greed are appalling. And both the Palestinians’ and Israelis’ coethnics and coreligionists in the West are actively working against the interests of white Europeans. So screw both of them.

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    • Agree: Hyperborean
    • Replies: @Talha
    Well that’s just great. Why don’t you guys, since you caused the problem in the first place, solve the problem tomorrow and carve out a similar region from Saxony or Bavaria where this persecuted minority can go (since we had relatively good relations before you dumped a bunch of yours on us).

    Then you can have the pleasure of having a nuclear-armed ethno-state with a bunker mentality in your midst. And if the local Germans resist, you can get all indignant about it and call them terrorists and make up for it by giving this ethno-state even more nuclear-armed submarines. That’ll help you assuage the guilt you have for what happened IN EUROPE. Not only in Europe but you brought to occupied Muslim lands:
    http://m.dw.com/en/germany-to-compensate-algerian-jewish-holocaust-survivors/a-42458534

    Except where local authorities were strong enough to resist:
    http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-hurowitz-moroccan-king-mohammed-v-20170425-story.html

    And you can also deal with the zealot cowboys in the US backing them up in the U.N. every time you try to condemn them and helping them always keep a technological edge over European armies.

    Otherwise, you guys can put these opinions where the sun doesn’t shine.
    , @Thorfinnsson
    Do not forget that there are Palestinian Christians, who are effectively the same people as Jesus Christ.

    We should liberate them from the Jewish yoke and restore Outremer.
    , @Bliss

    land-grabbing greed
     
    That’s funny coming from an european. The world champions of land grabbing are the Russians, the Brits, the Iberians. All gentile euros.

    Have you ever looked at a map of Israel? It is tiny. At it’s neck it is only about ten miles across. To call the Israelis greedy for land is obscenely unfair.
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  59. @Mikhail
    Although US born, Netanyahu doesn't carry on like such US supporters of Israel as Nikki Haley.

    https://www.eurasiareview.com/19042018-confronting-russia-in-syria-analysis/

    Far from being monolithic, the UN is subject to biases. Going back to the Cold War period, it was commonplace to hear pro-Israeli supporters in the US complain of biased UN resolutions and UN departments which slanted against the Jewish state. This sentiment lingers on. In the post-Soviet new world order, one finds some predominating biases against Russia at the UN. A point that relates to Russia’s stance on investigating the recently alleged chemical attack in Syria. It has been said that history has a way of repeating itself.
     
    Iran, Serbia, Israel and most other countries voted in favor of a Russian proposed UN resolution denouncing the glorification of Nazism. Canada, Kiev regime controlled Ukraine and the US were the only countries voting against it. A number of lackeys abstained with some others not showing up.

    As noted back in 2015:

    https://www.strategic-culture.org/news/2015/10/09/answering-russia-critics-on-syria.html

    Far from jumping into Syria without a carefully thought out plan, the Russian government has covered its angles well. This preparedness has included the meeting between Putin and Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu in Russia, shortly before the Russian airstrikes. Putin has followed with an acknowledgement that as a regional Mideast power, Israel has legitimate concerns which shouldn't be overlooked.

    Netanyahu doesn't see Russia in the same negative light as the Syrian government and (to a greater extent) its Lebanese Shiite Hezbollah and Iranian allies. Hence, he likely sees the Kremlin as a relatively good influence on an imperfect situation – with an understanding of what might regretfully happen if Syria's government were to suddenly fall. In contrast to Netanyahu meeting Putin, the pro-Israeli Republican US presidential candidate Carly Fiorina, says that she would avoid Putin altogether in the role of American president. That stance serves to increase the possibility for an unintended conflict between Washington and Moscow.
     

    Although US born, Netanyahu

    He was born in Tel Aviv.

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    • Replies: @Mikhail
    Correction noted, with the added aside that Netanyahu spent a good deal of his early life in the US - thus explaining his fluent American accented English. He's US educated at the grade school and college levels.
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  60. Not a bad week for Netanyahu — first Trump renounces the Iran deal and then Putin changes his mind on the S-300 for Syria:

    After Netanyahu Visit, Russia ‘Not in Talks’ With Syria to Supply S-300 System

    Russia is not in talks with Syria about supplying the Assad regime with its S-300 advanced air defense system and does not think they are needed, Vladimir Kozhin, an aide to Russian President Vladimir Putin, was quoted as saying on Friday in the Russian newspaper Izvestiya. Kozhin oversees military assistance to other countries.

    The comments follow Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s visit to Moscow this week, who presented to Putin “Israel’s obligation and right to defend itself against Iranian aggression, from Syrian territory.”

    The Syrian army has for years sought to obtain the S-300 system to counter Israeli air superiority, and Israel has in turn lobbied the Kremlin to refrain from supplying them. Iran received its first S-300 batteries in 2016, nearly a decade after Tehran paid for it.

    https://www.haaretz.com/middle-east-news/syria/russia-not-in-talks-with-syria-to-supply-s-300-system-1.6076063

    Read More
    • Replies: @German_reader
    I wonder what's Putin's reasoning behind this decision...does he want the Iranians to get out of Syria because he thinks that would help in avoiding a regional war?
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  61. @for-the-record
    Not a bad week for Netanyahu -- first Trump renounces the Iran deal and then Putin changes his mind on the S-300 for Syria:

    After Netanyahu Visit, Russia 'Not in Talks' With Syria to Supply S-300 System

    Russia is not in talks with Syria about supplying the Assad regime with its S-300 advanced air defense system and does not think they are needed, Vladimir Kozhin, an aide to Russian President Vladimir Putin, was quoted as saying on Friday in the Russian newspaper Izvestiya. Kozhin oversees military assistance to other countries.

    The comments follow Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's visit to Moscow this week, who presented to Putin "Israel's obligation and right to defend itself against Iranian aggression, from Syrian territory."

    The Syrian army has for years sought to obtain the S-300 system to counter Israeli air superiority, and Israel has in turn lobbied the Kremlin to refrain from supplying them. Iran received its first S-300 batteries in 2016, nearly a decade after Tehran paid for it.

    https://www.haaretz.com/middle-east-news/syria/russia-not-in-talks-with-syria-to-supply-s-300-system-1.6076063
     

    I wonder what’s Putin’s reasoning behind this decision…does he want the Iranians to get out of Syria because he thinks that would help in avoiding a regional war?

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    • Replies: @Dmitry
    The S-300 package to Syria costs $900 million, according to newspaper reports.

    Either Syria buys it (with Iranian funding) - which was discussed a few years ago, or it is given for free (which was discussed last week).

    The complex will likely be destroyed by Israel after it is given. If Syria had paid for it - this is no problem for the Kremlin. But if it was given for free, then the destruction of expensive free equipment will require a response from Russia (probably some economic sanction).

    In other words, giving it for free, is an increase in defense obligations, as well as a lot of money.

    If Syria (with Iranian backing) would pay for it, they would have been sold to Syria years ago.

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  62. @Thorfinnsson
    You probably read German media and Anglo media.

    There's a much stronger anti-Israel angle in Swedish media as an example. I don't speak French, but my father does and reports that French media is a lot harsher on Israel than our press is (perhaps French Basque can confirm).

    And Jerusalem is the capital of Israel--it's factually incorrect to claim it's not. It's just not the "international recognized" capital because of the insane modern custom not to accept the Right of Conquest.

    I don’t speak French, but my father does and reports that French media is a lot harsher on Israel than ours is.

    Bravo to your father. Also what he told you is true, which is quite surprising if one considers the almost total J control on French mainstream media. I don’t remember the exact breakout from the top of my head, but it’s eaay to find the numbers on the internet. Out of the 6 or 7 media conglomerates that totally dominate the mediascene here, at least half of then are owned by Js (Draghi, Niel, etc.) or Maranos (Dassault). On top of that, the deck of hosts on public radio (France Inter/France Info) sounds like it is radio Tel Aviv. And yet, despite that, the general tone is more often than not pro-Palestinians rather than pro-Israelis. It is I believe a legacy of the overall sovok sympathies of the French journalistic caste.

    However regarding the domestic narrative it is an entirely different story. If you listened to France Info regularly you would end up believing that some right wing takeover of the country was about to happen and that 6 million Js were going to be sent to Le Stuthof.

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    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    You will be delighted to know (I think) that my father moved to France and chose to learn French as part of his pseudo-retirement.

    I despise foreign languages and thus will never learn French, but I do admire French civilization--particularly the cuisine. I have learned how to make all of the complex French sauces for instance.
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  63. LondonBob says:
    @German_reader

    Most Western media has the bias towards anti-Israel reportage
     
    Sorry, but that's just a tiresome pro-Israel propaganda point. US mainstream media definitely has a pro-Israel bias. In Germany you've got the Springer media conglomerate which actually obliges employees in their contracts to report positively about Israel (!). In Britain outlets like the Daily Telegraph are also quite pro-Israel. I don't know how it's in France, Italy etc., but I doubt all media there is anti-Israel.
    Are some Western media anti-Israel? Sure. But I still think that Israel gets away with way more dubious stuff than any Western country would (one just has to compare how demonized Poland and Hungary are). Those complaints about hostile media are just another manifestation of the Israelis' "the entire world is full of antisemites who are against us for no reason at all" complex. Not credible anymore.

    The British media used to be relatively critical of Israel, well some left wing sections. These days there seems to be some sort of ban on any reporting on Palestine unless something major happens and they have to. Given the British history of Jewish terrorism and strong pro Palestinian position of people it is depressing only RT seems to reflect British public opinion.

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  64. Brabantian says: • Website

    Anatoly Karlin & Andrei Raevsky ‘the Saker’ both miss something important in their excuses for Putin, as Putin lets Israelis kill Iranians & Syrians … the AK-Saker ‘logic’ of theoretical Russian national interest, collapses before simple human psychology

    Arabs and Iranians are dying for Russians, but Russians let Israelis kill the Arabs and Iranians right in front of their eyes … How is this the action of humans with any moral fibre?

    OK, so Russia is in Syria to protect the Gazprom interests, guard its Mediterranean base, impede jihadis from Chechnya or whatever

    But Syrians and Iranians are DYING as they help Russians – It is just not the action of a friend or ally for Russians to watch them be killed by Israelis right in front of Russian eyes … Given Russians have decided to be there, they are involved, period … you watch killings under your nose, you are implicated

    It is utterly disgusting for the Arabs and Iranians to see the collusion of Putin with Israel, even denying them the S-300 defence equipment … The Arab / Iranian street sees the sad deal … ‘Putin’s Rabbi’ Berel Lazar of Mossad’s Chabad advising him; Russian oligarchs describing Putin as having a Jewish mother and legally Jewish, ‘Vladimir Jewtin’; about 20% of the Israeli military Russian-speaking, many of them Russian Orthodox Christian, from the 1990s Israeli importation of ‘tough Russians’ who claimed a Jewish ancestor, to offset the increasingly soyboy Israeli youth

    Tho some see too, that Putin did not even go in to protect fellow Russians in Donbass, despite the Odessa massacre and the atrocities that followed … there is just not a lot of honour in Moscow

    Regarding Afghanistan etc – Arabs and Muslims and jihadis are, like most people, opportunistic, looking for avenues where some kind of power can be won or just exercised

    The Palestinian cause has wide Arab street sympathy, but given the collusive nature of governments surrounding Israel, it is not easy for Arabs to see a place to which to travel, and reliably exercise effective power in a ‘fight against Israel’

    On the other hand, Afghanistan or Islamic State seemed like places where power could be exercised, one could ‘go there and do something’ without being quickly rounded up … the jihad in those cases having big backing and a field of opportunity

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    • Replies: @Mikhail
    If not already read:

    https://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/blogs/srdja-trifkovic/putins-collapsing-credibility-updated/
    , @Anatoly Karlin
    Erm… Iranians and Syrians are not “dying for Russians”, they are all dying for their own interests.

    Syrians – To preserve the regime, reunify the country; Iran – To extend their reach to the Mediterranean, an age-long Persian goal; Russia – For cheap training and establishing a presence in the Levant.

    Can I just randomly point out that Iran has not even recognized Crimea as part of Russia.

    Who is fighting for Russians? The Donbass. Those people really were betrayed by Putin. There is nobody to betray in Syria.
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  65. Mikhail says: • Website
    @for-the-record
    Although US born, Netanyahu

    He was born in Tel Aviv.

    Correction noted, with the added aside that Netanyahu spent a good deal of his early life in the US – thus explaining his fluent American accented English. He’s US educated at the grade school and college levels.

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  66. Mikhail says: • Website
    @Brabantian
    Anatoly Karlin & Andrei Raevsky 'the Saker' both miss something important in their excuses for Putin, as Putin lets Israelis kill Iranians & Syrians ... the AK-Saker 'logic' of theoretical Russian national interest, collapses before simple human psychology

    Arabs and Iranians are dying for Russians, but Russians let Israelis kill the Arabs and Iranians right in front of their eyes ... How is this the action of humans with any moral fibre?

    OK, so Russia is in Syria to protect the Gazprom interests, guard its Mediterranean base, impede jihadis from Chechnya or whatever

    But Syrians and Iranians are DYING as they help Russians - It is just not the action of a friend or ally for Russians to watch them be killed by Israelis right in front of Russian eyes ... Given Russians have decided to be there, they are involved, period ... you watch killings under your nose, you are implicated

    It is utterly disgusting for the Arabs and Iranians to see the collusion of Putin with Israel, even denying them the S-300 defence equipment ... The Arab / Iranian street sees the sad deal ... 'Putin's Rabbi' Berel Lazar of Mossad's Chabad advising him; Russian oligarchs describing Putin as having a Jewish mother and legally Jewish, 'Vladimir Jewtin'; about 20% of the Israeli military Russian-speaking, many of them Russian Orthodox Christian, from the 1990s Israeli importation of 'tough Russians' who claimed a Jewish ancestor, to offset the increasingly soyboy Israeli youth

    Tho some see too, that Putin did not even go in to protect fellow Russians in Donbass, despite the Odessa massacre and the atrocities that followed ... there is just not a lot of honour in Moscow

    Regarding Afghanistan etc - Arabs and Muslims and jihadis are, like most people, opportunistic, looking for avenues where some kind of power can be won or just exercised

    The Palestinian cause has wide Arab street sympathy, but given the collusive nature of governments surrounding Israel, it is not easy for Arabs to see a place to which to travel, and reliably exercise effective power in a 'fight against Israel'

    On the other hand, Afghanistan or Islamic State seemed like places where power could be exercised, one could 'go there and do something' without being quickly rounded up ... the jihad in those cases having big backing and a field of opportunity
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  67. LondonBob says:

    I agree with the general idea but the S300 is a key element to tool up your proxies so they can do their own fighting. Israel is a largely hostile country that offers nothing to Russia so quite why they should have a key input in to Russian foreign policy decisions I don’t know. Continual Israeli bombing would undermine Russian efforts and prestige, to a certain extent. Stability of MENA should be a concern across Europe. Iran, Iraq, Syria and Lebanon represent very decent markets to open up to trade, weapons sales etc. Then there is the obvious fact that it is zionist voices driving the anti Russian narrative, why bend over?

    Anyway the Soviet Union was athiestic, bankrupt ideologically and economically entity that of the course the Arabs would not seek to be aligned with.

    Still Israel demonstrated they can’t really harm Syria, or reverse the direction of the war, even without the S300, the WC is in a few weeks, US midterms in the Autumn and the decison can be revisited or used as a threat.

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  68. Not Raul says:
    @Lemurmaniac
    Let's face it; he's a winded horse. Time for Karlin's 'dark Tsar'.

    Who would be the dark tsar? Kiriyenko?

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  69. @Brabantian
    Anatoly Karlin & Andrei Raevsky 'the Saker' both miss something important in their excuses for Putin, as Putin lets Israelis kill Iranians & Syrians ... the AK-Saker 'logic' of theoretical Russian national interest, collapses before simple human psychology

    Arabs and Iranians are dying for Russians, but Russians let Israelis kill the Arabs and Iranians right in front of their eyes ... How is this the action of humans with any moral fibre?

    OK, so Russia is in Syria to protect the Gazprom interests, guard its Mediterranean base, impede jihadis from Chechnya or whatever

    But Syrians and Iranians are DYING as they help Russians - It is just not the action of a friend or ally for Russians to watch them be killed by Israelis right in front of Russian eyes ... Given Russians have decided to be there, they are involved, period ... you watch killings under your nose, you are implicated

    It is utterly disgusting for the Arabs and Iranians to see the collusion of Putin with Israel, even denying them the S-300 defence equipment ... The Arab / Iranian street sees the sad deal ... 'Putin's Rabbi' Berel Lazar of Mossad's Chabad advising him; Russian oligarchs describing Putin as having a Jewish mother and legally Jewish, 'Vladimir Jewtin'; about 20% of the Israeli military Russian-speaking, many of them Russian Orthodox Christian, from the 1990s Israeli importation of 'tough Russians' who claimed a Jewish ancestor, to offset the increasingly soyboy Israeli youth

    Tho some see too, that Putin did not even go in to protect fellow Russians in Donbass, despite the Odessa massacre and the atrocities that followed ... there is just not a lot of honour in Moscow

    Regarding Afghanistan etc - Arabs and Muslims and jihadis are, like most people, opportunistic, looking for avenues where some kind of power can be won or just exercised

    The Palestinian cause has wide Arab street sympathy, but given the collusive nature of governments surrounding Israel, it is not easy for Arabs to see a place to which to travel, and reliably exercise effective power in a 'fight against Israel'

    On the other hand, Afghanistan or Islamic State seemed like places where power could be exercised, one could 'go there and do something' without being quickly rounded up ... the jihad in those cases having big backing and a field of opportunity

    Erm… Iranians and Syrians are not “dying for Russians”, they are all dying for their own interests.

    Syrians – To preserve the regime, reunify the country; Iran – To extend their reach to the Mediterranean, an age-long Persian goal; Russia – For cheap training and establishing a presence in the Levant.

    Can I just randomly point out that Iran has not even recognized Crimea as part of Russia.

    Who is fighting for Russians? The Donbass. Those people really were betrayed by Putin. There is nobody to betray in Syria.

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    • Replies: @Mr. Hack

    Who is fighting for Russians? The Donbass. Those people really were betrayed by Putin. There is nobody to betray in Syria.
     
    Without initial Russian inspiration (read: Putin's knowledge and approval of) there would not have been a Donbas war. Outsiders (Russians, Chechens etc;) were initially flooded into the region to start this maniacal war. Having unnecessarily riled up the area against the Kyivan center, going on four years now, Putin has decided to just let the place rot in the aftermath of heavy fighting, keeping the embers of war smoldering with a much smaller life support than initially given. You cannot dispute that if the support for Russia had been nearly as high in Donbas as it was in the Crimea, there would be no war still going on today, and the Donbas would at least be some sort of 'autonomous' Russian protectorate. It was a poorly designed operation doomed for failure from the very start. Looks like this first test case of the Triune theory (in an area of mixed Russian/Ukrainian citizenry) has failed miserably!
    , @for-the-record
    Can I just randomly point out that Iran has not even recognized Crimea as part of Russia.

    Their position has been the same as that of China -- no formal recognition, but one of a relatively small number of countries (26) to vote against UN resolutions in 2016 and 2017 that called Russia an "occupying power".

    Only 10 countries have formally recognised the annexation: Afghanistan, Bolivia, Cuba, Kyrgyzstan, Nicaragua, North Korea, Sudan, Syria, Venezuela, Zimbabwe.
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  70. I have to say the optics of Netanyahoo’s visit to Moscow was just embarrassing. Syria is not a “training ground”, it’s Russia’s ally (to the extent that Russia has any allies at all): we have all sorts of bilateral agreements, we invested a lot of money in Syria, Syria even recognised Crimea as a part of Russia.

    Attacks on allies should not be tolerated. At the very least we must impose sanctions on Israel: this economic relationship benefits the Jews far more than it benefits Russians.

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    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    How do you suggest Russia retaliate against Israel?
    , @Dmitry

    Attacks on allies should not be tolerated. At the very least we must impose sanctions on Israel: this economic relationship benefits the Jews far more than it benefits Russians.

     

    I think economic relationship with Israel is mainly

    1. Russia is number one or two seller of oil to Israel (along with Azerbaijan).

    2. Israel receives hundreds of thousands of tourists from Russia each year.

    3. Russia imports some agricultural products.

    Oil is substitutable (unlike gas which needs pipelines).

    While the tourism is more possible instrument of foreign policy (like what happened with Turkey).
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  71. Talha says:
    @German_reader

    Since Folke Bernadotte they showed they tried to be fair in Jewish-Arab conflict
     
    No point in that imo. As far as I'm concerned, both Israel and the Palestinians can go to hell. Yes, the Palestinians suffered a serious injustice, and yes, it's understandable Jews want their own state after their history as a horribly persecuted minority. But in the end, I find both sides thoroughly immoral and unpleasant...both the Palestinians with their Islamism and terrorism and the Israelis with their demented, religion-infused nationalism and land-grabbing greed are appalling. And both the Palestinians' and Israelis' coethnics and coreligionists in the West are actively working against the interests of white Europeans. So screw both of them.

    Well that’s just great. Why don’t you guys, since you caused the problem in the first place, solve the problem tomorrow and carve out a similar region from Saxony or Bavaria where this persecuted minority can go (since we had relatively good relations before you dumped a bunch of yours on us).

    Then you can have the pleasure of having a nuclear-armed ethno-state with a bunker mentality in your midst. And if the local Germans resist, you can get all indignant about it and call them terrorists and make up for it by giving this ethno-state even more nuclear-armed submarines. That’ll help you assuage the guilt you have for what happened IN EUROPE. Not only in Europe but you brought to occupied Muslim lands:

    http://m.dw.com/en/germany-to-compensate-algerian-jewish-holocaust-survivors/a-42458534

    Except where local authorities were strong enough to resist:

    http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-hurowitz-moroccan-king-mohammed-v-20170425-story.html

    And you can also deal with the zealot cowboys in the US backing them up in the U.N. every time you try to condemn them and helping them always keep a technological edge over European armies.

    Otherwise, you guys can put these opinions where the sun doesn’t shine.

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    • Replies: @Anon, @German_reader
    Well sure, if the world were just, Jews would have gotten the Rhineland instead of Palestine for their state. But the world isn't just, and tbh I don't think Arabs and Muslims are completely innocent in this whole affair either since they did eventually expel their Jewish minorities. Now you may argue this wouldn't have happened without Zionism and colonialism, and probably you'd be right...but frankly, I don't regard that as relevant today. And given that your own idea of the perfect political order seems to be some kind of Islamic state where minorities don't have equal political rights, you can save your moral indignation, because it's exactly such views which will ensure that there'll never be peace in the Mideast.
    , @El Dato

    carve out a similar region from Saxony or Bavaria where this persecuted minority can go (since we had relatively good relations before you dumped a bunch of yours on us).
     
    I think it's already occupied by Turks...
    , @songbird
    That is rich.

    But here's the thing: Zionism existed before WW2, and Jews did not have any less of a persecution complex, or less of a desire to settle Israel. They were settling it when it was part of the Ottoman empire. They had the Turks wrapped around their little finger, even when they were massacring the Armenians and sharpening their knives in front of the Greeks.

    There's also a lot of hypocrisy fundamental in your indignation. Those "occupied Muslim lands" were really Christian lands occupied by Muslims. Similarly, Europe is occupied by more Muslims than there are Jews in Israel. We also took in many of your Jews too who were fleeing the threat of death. Islam has a long history of persecuting other religions. It began with Muhammad who himself put Jews to the sword. Jews who were, of course, living in Arabia before Islam came into being, and I am pretty sure there are none there now. Maybe, Arabia should be settled with Jews to make up for that violent past.
    , @Bliss

    we had relatively good relations before you dumped a bunch of yours on us
     
    Lol at this wannabe pretending to get all agitated. Who is this “we” and this “us”? Pakistan is a long ways from Palestine. Why don’t you ever show the same concern for your own neighborhood and your own people?

    The Arabs there are far better off than the Christians, Ahmadis, Sufis, Shias are in Pakistan. Why aren’t you getting agitated about that?
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  72. @Glossy
    You must be another Jew lover and neocon cockroach.

    Yeah dude, you totally nailed it.

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  73. @songbird

    Sweden is more of a meme than a country anyway, and they also were strongly against South Africa in the old days, so at least they’re consistent in their self-righteousness regarding foreign conflicts
     
    I wonder how much of that is consistency, and how much of it is the growing Muslim population channeling Sweden's natural leftism. I presume the natural, unadulterated Swedish feeling towards Jews would be guilt-ridden at having stayed neutral during the war, or at having so many blond and blue-eyed people. I don't think that last is far fetched, as I recently read an article at a mainstream entertainment site by a Jewish writer which at one point lamented that there was a Swedish actor (blond and blue-eyed) in a TV show.

    I can confirm that Swedes feel guilty about staying neutral during the war. I routinely argue with my family members about this, as to me it’s clear Sweden’s WW2 policy was wise and successful.

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  74. @German_reader

    There’s a much stronger anti-Israel angle in Swedish media as an example
     
    No offense, but who cares what Swedes think? Sweden is more of a meme than a country anyway, and they also were strongly against South Africa in the old days, so at least they're consistent in their self-righteousness regarding foreign conflicts that shouldn't be of interest to them.
    You may be right about French media. I'm just critical in general about claims of anti-Israeli bias...in the cases where I can check it, I find such accusations to be often exaggerated. And tbh I just can't stand most of the people in Western countries who are big defenders of Israel. They usually are dumb, unpleasant fanatics who present a ridiculously one-sided view of the conflict ("tiny little Israel which never did anything wrong, valiantly defending itself against a sea of unthinking hatred...and oh btw, Palestinians don't exist, they are an invented people!"), just as bad as the worst pro-Palestinian activists. Often also totally pc and "antiracist" on other matters...e.g. one of the biggest friends of Israel I've exchanged views with was a stupid CDU cuck...actually a member of the German-Israeli society...back in 2015 he then went on how he needed to report people to police because they had made racist statements against "refugees" on the net...
    For me, complaints about supposed anti-Israel bias are just another manifestation of "antiracism" and attempts to maintain taboos in discourse. Therefore I reject them.

    No offense, but who cares what Swedes think? Sweden is more of a meme than a country anyway, and they also were strongly against South Africa in the old days, so at least they’re consistent in their self-righteousness regarding foreign conflicts that shouldn’t be of interest to them.

    :(

    My poor urheimat…

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  75. @Felix Keverich
    I have to say the optics of Netanyahoo's visit to Moscow was just embarrassing. Syria is not a "training ground", it's Russia's ally (to the extent that Russia has any allies at all): we have all sorts of bilateral agreements, we invested a lot of money in Syria, Syria even recognised Crimea as a part of Russia.

    Attacks on allies should not be tolerated. At the very least we must impose sanctions on Israel: this economic relationship benefits the Jews far more than it benefits Russians.

    How do you suggest Russia retaliate against Israel?

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    • Replies: @Felix Keverich

    How do you suggest Russia retaliate against Israel?
     
    Not inviting Netanyahoo would be a start. If you attack our friends and allies, you should not be treated as a guest of honor at our "sacred" annual ritual.

    Step two: ramp up anti-Israel propaganda on state TV. The Jews are highly sensitive to this stuff. For now domestic propaganda mostly ignores Israel, when they do report on Israel, they cover it positively.

    Ending direct wealth transfers to Israel. Under Putin's initiative, Russia pays pensions to Soviet Jews, who emigrated to Israel - a bizarre arrangement for all sorts of reasons.

    Russia's economic relationship with Israel in general is very one-sided and mostly serves as a conduit for Jews to extract wealth from Russia. The government should make it harder for the Israeli citizens to do business in Russia, ideally pressuring them to sell their businesses and get out. This is not a retaliation measure per se, just sound economic nationalism, because having Jewish businesses in Russia is bad for Russians.
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  76. @German_reader

    Since Folke Bernadotte they showed they tried to be fair in Jewish-Arab conflict
     
    No point in that imo. As far as I'm concerned, both Israel and the Palestinians can go to hell. Yes, the Palestinians suffered a serious injustice, and yes, it's understandable Jews want their own state after their history as a horribly persecuted minority. But in the end, I find both sides thoroughly immoral and unpleasant...both the Palestinians with their Islamism and terrorism and the Israelis with their demented, religion-infused nationalism and land-grabbing greed are appalling. And both the Palestinians' and Israelis' coethnics and coreligionists in the West are actively working against the interests of white Europeans. So screw both of them.

    Do not forget that there are Palestinian Christians, who are effectively the same people as Jesus Christ.

    We should liberate them from the Jewish yoke and restore Outremer.

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    • Replies: @German_reader
    I had the same idea in this thread a few months ago (comment 2)...surely a case of "great minds think alike":
    https://www.unz.com/imercer/jews-must-never-forget-trump-for-remembering-our-unforgettable-jerusalem/
    Yes, the Palestinian Christians are pretty much the only ones one can unreservedly feel sorry for in this whole mess.
    , @Anonymous

    Do not forget that there are Palestinian Christians, who are effectively the same people as Jesus Christ.

    We should liberate them from the Jewish yoke and restore Outremer.
     
    Israelis, who are largely genetically European, need to go back to European ghettos. They are not continuous with the Jews of the Old Testament and the only real commonality is their denial of Christ.
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  77. Off-topic

    I read in a previous thread that German_reader is physically ill and made poor life choices and is thus poor.

    He is of course under no obligation to satisfy my curiosity, but what went wrong? I say this with sympathy and understanding as it could’ve easily happened to me and very nearly did.

    Ron Unz should add private messages and other messageboard features in light of our growing camaraderie.

    AK: I agree, that would be a good approach, but I am not sure the software is up for that short of giving everyone their own accounts, which would be a major change.
    Given its sensitivity, if German_reader doesn’t wish to indulge this discussion and says so, I will remove this post.

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    • Agree: reiner Tor
    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    I’m in agreement with AK’s addition as well.
    , @German_reader

    I read in a previous thread that German_reader is physically ill and made poor life choices and is thus poor
     
    It's not very interesting, just somewhat severe back issues which I probably should have had operated when I was younger. There's certainly worse things, but it has definitely had an extremely negative impact on my life.
    Apart from that...well, let's just say I did humanities at university...which was probably a very bad idea. The German university system can be pretty cruel. Also bureaucratic...a few years ago I had the chance to get a much better job, but it was denied to me based on some absurd bureaucratic rule (introduced by the Schröder government early in the millennium...amusingly enough, it's supposed to HELP people like me)...which tells you what kind of shit country Germany is, given how other rules (like those against illegal immigration) somehow don't get enforced. Anyway, the result is that for the past few years I've been stuck in low-paid work. I'm trying to rectify the situation, but given my numerous other issues it isn't easy.
    I hope that's enough to satisfy your curiosity...my personal life story is rather trivial...and not exactly relevant to the topic of this thread :-)
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  78. @French Basque

    I don’t speak French, but my father does and reports that French media is a lot harsher on Israel than ours is.
     
    Bravo to your father. Also what he told you is true, which is quite surprising if one considers the almost total J control on French mainstream media. I don’t remember the exact breakout from the top of my head, but it’s eaay to find the numbers on the internet. Out of the 6 or 7 media conglomerates that totally dominate the mediascene here, at least half of then are owned by Js (Draghi, Niel, etc.) or Maranos (Dassault). On top of that, the deck of hosts on public radio (France Inter/France Info) sounds like it is radio Tel Aviv. And yet, despite that, the general tone is more often than not pro-Palestinians rather than pro-Israelis. It is I believe a legacy of the overall sovok sympathies of the French journalistic caste.

    However regarding the domestic narrative it is an entirely different story. If you listened to France Info regularly you would end up believing that some right wing takeover of the country was about to happen and that 6 million Js were going to be sent to Le Stuthof.

    You will be delighted to know (I think) that my father moved to France and chose to learn French as part of his pseudo-retirement.

    I despise foreign languages and thus will never learn French, but I do admire French civilization–particularly the cuisine. I have learned how to make all of the complex French sauces for instance.

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    • Replies: @French Basque

    You will be delighted to know (I think) that my father moved to France and chose to learn French as part of his pseudo-retirement.
     
    I certainly commend him for that. This is not an easy language to learn, especially for germanic languages native speakers.

    I despise foreign languages and thus will never learn French
     
    By the way basque is several orders of magnitude harder to learn, as there is absolutely not Indo-European handle to cling to. It had been lost in my family for at least 3 generations and was revived by my parents who put us in an ikastola for elementary school. By the way I think someone with your culture and analytical intelligence would have no problem at learning foreign languages and would probably even enjoy doing so, even if solely as an intellectual exercice. It is apparently very good as prophylaxis against Alzheimer's and similar brain degenerative conditions.

    I have learned how to make all of the complex French sauces for instance.
     
    Now, that is a feat. I am completely incapable of that. This is one of the reasons why I married a Frantziako :)
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  79. Anon[198] • Disclaimer says:
    @Talha
    Well that’s just great. Why don’t you guys, since you caused the problem in the first place, solve the problem tomorrow and carve out a similar region from Saxony or Bavaria where this persecuted minority can go (since we had relatively good relations before you dumped a bunch of yours on us).

    Then you can have the pleasure of having a nuclear-armed ethno-state with a bunker mentality in your midst. And if the local Germans resist, you can get all indignant about it and call them terrorists and make up for it by giving this ethno-state even more nuclear-armed submarines. That’ll help you assuage the guilt you have for what happened IN EUROPE. Not only in Europe but you brought to occupied Muslim lands:
    http://m.dw.com/en/germany-to-compensate-algerian-jewish-holocaust-survivors/a-42458534

    Except where local authorities were strong enough to resist:
    http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-hurowitz-moroccan-king-mohammed-v-20170425-story.html

    And you can also deal with the zealot cowboys in the US backing them up in the U.N. every time you try to condemn them and helping them always keep a technological edge over European armies.

    Otherwise, you guys can put these opinions where the sun doesn’t shine.
    Read More
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  80. A typo on my part in my response to you #62 above: please read Stuthof not Struthof. By the way, aside from the usual J fantasies, this camp was were many French patriots were assassinated by the Germans, most notably Général Aubert Frère). He was the head of the ORA, the clandestine military resistance organization that was operating under the cover of the Armée d’Armistice, authorized by the 1940 armistice convention. He was arrested in 1943 because, unlike Colonel de Gaulle, he always refused to flee to London and wanted to fight the fight in France. A truly heroic patriot. May he rest in peace.

    We should liberate them from the Jewish yoke and restore Outremer.

    I will certainly second that.

    http://www.lysardent.fr/2015/03/05/14-mars-messe-de-requiem-pour-baudouin-iv-de-jerusalem/

    Read More
    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    I wonder about de Gaulle.

    I do not question his conduct during the war, which I consider exemplary (you perhaps disagree?).

    But abandoning Algeria? Or more particularly, abandoning the the Pied-Noirs. Strategically I understand the decision to abandon Algeria, but sure the French government could've done more for the Pied-Noirs.
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  81. @Thorfinnsson
    Off-topic

    I read in a previous thread that German_reader is physically ill and made poor life choices and is thus poor.

    He is of course under no obligation to satisfy my curiosity, but what went wrong? I say this with sympathy and understanding as it could've easily happened to me and very nearly did.

    Ron Unz should add private messages and other messageboard features in light of our growing camaraderie.

    AK: I agree, that would be a good approach, but I am not sure the software is up for that short of giving everyone their own accounts, which would be a major change.
    Given its sensitivity, if German_reader doesn't wish to indulge this discussion and says so, I will remove this post.

    I’m in agreement with AK’s addition as well.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    I haven't seen you comment lately. I'm glad that the Magyar Miracle is BACK.

    With respect to Karlin's disapprobation, one would simply have the option of registering.

    Registered members could send private messages and perhaps have a members-only forum.
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  82. Anonymous[196] • Disclaimer says:
    @Glossy
    So what? It means Karlin is a Jew lover and a neocon cockroach. That's what.

    So what? It means Karlin is a Jew lover and a neocon cockroach. That’s what.

    But didn’t this neocon cockroach support Zhirinovsky in the last election? Zhirinovsky, although Jewish, has views somewhere between The Saker and Israel Shamir last time I checked.

    Read More
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  83. @reiner Tor
    I’m in agreement with AK’s addition as well.

    I haven’t seen you comment lately. I’m glad that the Magyar Miracle is BACK.

    With respect to Karlin’s disapprobation, one would simply have the option of registering.

    Registered members could send private messages and perhaps have a members-only forum.

    Read More
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  84. @Thorfinnsson
    You will be delighted to know (I think) that my father moved to France and chose to learn French as part of his pseudo-retirement.

    I despise foreign languages and thus will never learn French, but I do admire French civilization--particularly the cuisine. I have learned how to make all of the complex French sauces for instance.

    You will be delighted to know (I think) that my father moved to France and chose to learn French as part of his pseudo-retirement.

    I certainly commend him for that. This is not an easy language to learn, especially for germanic languages native speakers.

    I despise foreign languages and thus will never learn French

    By the way basque is several orders of magnitude harder to learn, as there is absolutely not Indo-European handle to cling to. It had been lost in my family for at least 3 generations and was revived by my parents who put us in an ikastola for elementary school. By the way I think someone with your culture and analytical intelligence would have no problem at learning foreign languages and would probably even enjoy doing so, even if solely as an intellectual exercice. It is apparently very good as prophylaxis against Alzheimer’s and similar brain degenerative conditions.

    I have learned how to make all of the complex French sauces for instance.

    Now, that is a feat. I am completely incapable of that. This is one of the reasons why I married a Frantziako :)

    Read More
    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    Interesting that your parents revived the Basque language for your family. Do you have some kind of accent in Basque as a result?

    By the way I think someone with your culture and analytical intelligence would have no problem at learning foreign languages and would probably even enjoy doing so, even if solely as an intellectual exercice. It is apparently very good as prophylaxis against Alzheimer’s and similar brain degenerative conditions.
     
    You are not wrong, but I have to be me. I almost got fluent in Spanish and German, but realized I hate foreign languages. I am a dissident and a troll, and in my social class there is prestige in speaking foreign languages. As a result I firmly decided against speaking them, other than my ancestral Swedish.

    While there are many reasons to oppose immigration, the language issue is a significant one for me. It's extremely irritating to be forced to talk to dubious foreigners who barely speak English.

    I might change my mind on Spanish (business purposes) and German (military history enthusiasm) in the future.

    Regarding the brain issue I am not concerned as I am in my 30s, though my maternal grandmother did get Alzheimer's.

    Now, that is a feat. I am completely incapable of that. This is one of the reasons why I married a Frantziako :)
     
    What is a Frantziako?

    If you ever find yourself in the American Midwest I will cook dinner for you and your wife with a proper French sauce.
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  85. @Thorfinnsson
    Do not forget that there are Palestinian Christians, who are effectively the same people as Jesus Christ.

    We should liberate them from the Jewish yoke and restore Outremer.

    I had the same idea in this thread a few months ago (comment 2)…surely a case of “great minds think alike”:

    https://www.unz.com/imercer/jews-must-never-forget-trump-for-remembering-our-unforgettable-jerusalem/

    Yes, the Palestinian Christians are pretty much the only ones one can unreservedly feel sorry for in this whole mess.

    Read More
    • Replies: @songbird

    Yes, the Palestinian Christians are pretty much the only ones one can unreservedly feel sorry for in this whole mess.
     
    Not to mention, the Lebanese Christians, who basically had their country permanently destabilized by the refugees.
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  86. @French Basque
    A typo on my part in my response to you #62 above: please read Stuthof not Struthof. By the way, aside from the usual J fantasies, this camp was were many French patriots were assassinated by the Germans, most notably Général Aubert Frère). He was the head of the ORA, the clandestine military resistance organization that was operating under the cover of the Armée d'Armistice, authorized by the 1940 armistice convention. He was arrested in 1943 because, unlike Colonel de Gaulle, he always refused to flee to London and wanted to fight the fight in France. A truly heroic patriot. May he rest in peace.

    We should liberate them from the Jewish yoke and restore Outremer.
     
    I will certainly second that.
    http://www.lysardent.fr/2015/03/05/14-mars-messe-de-requiem-pour-baudouin-iv-de-jerusalem/

    I wonder about de Gaulle.

    I do not question his conduct during the war, which I consider exemplary (you perhaps disagree?).

    But abandoning Algeria? Or more particularly, abandoning the the Pied-Noirs. Strategically I understand the decision to abandon Algeria, but sure the French government could’ve done more for the Pied-Noirs.

    Read More
    • Replies: @French Basque
    In the interest of full disclosure: my wife is of Pied-Noir descent. Her mother moved to France as a child in a hurry in July 1962, and her own parents (my wife's grandparents) lost everything that had been patiently and laboriously built by 4 generations of hard-working people originating from Alsace and Sicily for the most part. My in-laws hate de Gaulle with a passion and I have been influenced by their thinking, especially after having heard all the horror stories of what happened during that infamous summer of 1962. Although I am trying to remain even-minded in this regard, it is hard to not objectively see that de Gaulle betrayed the Pied-Noirs, to whom he had made all sorts of promises before his 1958 come-back. Not to mention his complete abandonment of the locals who had been fighting on the side of France (the so-called Harkis), who were butchered in generally atrocious conditions, together with their families, by the FLN victors.

    What should have been done would have been to retain a part of Algérie -- which is entirely a French creation anyway, including its name -- for the Pied-Noirs. There was no way the FLN could have opposed it, having been entirely defeated militarily speaking. But de Gaulle, deluded as he was with his dreams of grandeur, thought that this free gift to the Arabs would make France well positioned to become the head of the non-aligned third way between the USA and the USSR. That turned out to be a complete mistake of course, as this did not buy us anything, as half a century after this massive concession, the official ideology of independent Algeria is still to blame the former French rule for all the current failures (and there are many).

    Regarding 1940, he became a puppet of the English and I don't see this as being especially honorable. Giraud was a much more decent man, not to mention Darlan of course, but he was assassinated by the Gaullists. But in fact the worst part of the Gaullian legacy, in my view, is the so-called "Libération" of 1944 and the following "Épuration" that followed under his rule. This is the absolute, un-redeemable stain on this man's legacy.

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  87. Anonymous[196] • Disclaimer says:
    @Thorfinnsson
    Do not forget that there are Palestinian Christians, who are effectively the same people as Jesus Christ.

    We should liberate them from the Jewish yoke and restore Outremer.

    Do not forget that there are Palestinian Christians, who are effectively the same people as Jesus Christ.

    We should liberate them from the Jewish yoke and restore Outremer.

    Israelis, who are largely genetically European, need to go back to European ghettos. They are not continuous with the Jews of the Old Testament and the only real commonality is their denial of Christ.

    Read More
    • Replies: @French Basque
    With the only possible exception of Arab Js (Mizrahim). But they are weak in general and have relatively low IQs, so I think they may be able to find a modus vivandi with the other Arabs and stick around while the others are sent back where they belong.

    Although Madagascar was really a great idea, I think that France could contribute to the ME peace process by offering the Js a piece of land to relocate:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adélie_Land
    It is 20 times bigger than current-day Israhell and has a great coastline too.
    , @Thorfinnsson
    They are half-European, and this is only the Ashkenazim.

    And no, Europe does not need them back.
    , @Hyperborean
    Israel doesn't just have Ashkenazim. Israel also has a lot of Mizrahi Jews, should they also go to Europe - a place they have never lived?

    Besides this plan will cause a lot of problems down the line.

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  88. I had also seen German_reader’s clear indication of his situation in an earlier comment, and given the fact that I had not yet started to comment here at the time, I did not say anything then. But I also felt sorry to read that, especially because I am always interested in his comments.

    Whatever his situation might be I would like to extend my sympathy to him.

    Read More
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  89. Anonymous[196] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anatoly Karlin
    In my articles on the Wagner affair (just search site:unz.com/akarlin wagner) I rejected both initial Kremlin propaganda that there were no deaths and Western/(+hysterical Russian nationalist) propaganda there were hundreds of deaths.

    In fact, my estimates (a few dozen deaths) were in the same ballpark as the later serious investigations.

    In my articles on the Wagner affair (just search site:unz.com/akarlin wagner) I rejected both initial Kremlin propaganda that there were no deaths and Western/(+hysterical Russian nationalist) propaganda there were hundreds of deaths.

    In fact, my estimates (a few dozen deaths) were in the same ballpark as the later serious investigations.

    And what makes any retaliation for these dozen or so Russian deaths problematic is that I read that the U.S. military ran the location of the mercs through the Russian military liaison and the Russian military effectively signed off on it by saying Russia had no military assets where the group was located. To retaliate or raise a stink about it after the fact would make the Russian military look incompetent.

    Read More
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  90. @Anonymous

    Do not forget that there are Palestinian Christians, who are effectively the same people as Jesus Christ.

    We should liberate them from the Jewish yoke and restore Outremer.
     
    Israelis, who are largely genetically European, need to go back to European ghettos. They are not continuous with the Jews of the Old Testament and the only real commonality is their denial of Christ.

    With the only possible exception of Arab Js (Mizrahim). But they are weak in general and have relatively low IQs, so I think they may be able to find a modus vivandi with the other Arabs and stick around while the others are sent back where they belong.

    Although Madagascar was really a great idea, I think that France could contribute to the ME peace process by offering the Js a piece of land to relocate:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adélie_Land

    It is 20 times bigger than current-day Israhell and has a great coastline too.

    Read More
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  91. @French Basque

    You will be delighted to know (I think) that my father moved to France and chose to learn French as part of his pseudo-retirement.
     
    I certainly commend him for that. This is not an easy language to learn, especially for germanic languages native speakers.

    I despise foreign languages and thus will never learn French
     
    By the way basque is several orders of magnitude harder to learn, as there is absolutely not Indo-European handle to cling to. It had been lost in my family for at least 3 generations and was revived by my parents who put us in an ikastola for elementary school. By the way I think someone with your culture and analytical intelligence would have no problem at learning foreign languages and would probably even enjoy doing so, even if solely as an intellectual exercice. It is apparently very good as prophylaxis against Alzheimer's and similar brain degenerative conditions.

    I have learned how to make all of the complex French sauces for instance.
     
    Now, that is a feat. I am completely incapable of that. This is one of the reasons why I married a Frantziako :)

    Interesting that your parents revived the Basque language for your family. Do you have some kind of accent in Basque as a result?

    By the way I think someone with your culture and analytical intelligence would have no problem at learning foreign languages and would probably even enjoy doing so, even if solely as an intellectual exercice. It is apparently very good as prophylaxis against Alzheimer’s and similar brain degenerative conditions.

    You are not wrong, but I have to be me. I almost got fluent in Spanish and German, but realized I hate foreign languages. I am a dissident and a troll, and in my social class there is prestige in speaking foreign languages. As a result I firmly decided against speaking them, other than my ancestral Swedish.

    While there are many reasons to oppose immigration, the language issue is a significant one for me. It’s extremely irritating to be forced to talk to dubious foreigners who barely speak English.

    I might change my mind on Spanish (business purposes) and German (military history enthusiasm) in the future.

    Regarding the brain issue I am not concerned as I am in my 30s, though my maternal grandmother did get Alzheimer’s.

    Now, that is a feat. I am completely incapable of that. This is one of the reasons why I married a Frantziako :)

    What is a Frantziako?

    If you ever find yourself in the American Midwest I will cook dinner for you and your wife with a proper French sauce.

    Read More
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  92. @Anonymous

    Do not forget that there are Palestinian Christians, who are effectively the same people as Jesus Christ.

    We should liberate them from the Jewish yoke and restore Outremer.
     
    Israelis, who are largely genetically European, need to go back to European ghettos. They are not continuous with the Jews of the Old Testament and the only real commonality is their denial of Christ.

    They are half-European, and this is only the Ashkenazim.

    And no, Europe does not need them back.

    Read More
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  93. @Anonymous

    Do not forget that there are Palestinian Christians, who are effectively the same people as Jesus Christ.

    We should liberate them from the Jewish yoke and restore Outremer.
     
    Israelis, who are largely genetically European, need to go back to European ghettos. They are not continuous with the Jews of the Old Testament and the only real commonality is their denial of Christ.

    Israel doesn’t just have Ashkenazim. Israel also has a lot of Mizrahi Jews, should they also go to Europe – a place they have never lived?

    Besides this plan will cause a lot of problems down the line.

    Read More
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  94. @Thorfinnsson
    I wonder about de Gaulle.

    I do not question his conduct during the war, which I consider exemplary (you perhaps disagree?).

    But abandoning Algeria? Or more particularly, abandoning the the Pied-Noirs. Strategically I understand the decision to abandon Algeria, but sure the French government could've done more for the Pied-Noirs.

    In the interest of full disclosure: my wife is of Pied-Noir descent. Her mother moved to France as a child in a hurry in July 1962, and her own parents (my wife’s grandparents) lost everything that had been patiently and laboriously built by 4 generations of hard-working people originating from Alsace and Sicily for the most part. My in-laws hate de Gaulle with a passion and I have been influenced by their thinking, especially after having heard all the horror stories of what happened during that infamous summer of 1962. Although I am trying to remain even-minded in this regard, it is hard to not objectively see that de Gaulle betrayed the Pied-Noirs, to whom he had made all sorts of promises before his 1958 come-back. Not to mention his complete abandonment of the locals who had been fighting on the side of France (the so-called Harkis), who were butchered in generally atrocious conditions, together with their families, by the FLN victors.

    What should have been done would have been to retain a part of Algérie — which is entirely a French creation anyway, including its name — for the Pied-Noirs. There was no way the FLN could have opposed it, having been entirely defeated militarily speaking. But de Gaulle, deluded as he was with his dreams of grandeur, thought that this free gift to the Arabs would make France well positioned to become the head of the non-aligned third way between the USA and the USSR. That turned out to be a complete mistake of course, as this did not buy us anything, as half a century after this massive concession, the official ideology of independent Algeria is still to blame the former French rule for all the current failures (and there are many).

    Regarding 1940, he became a puppet of the English and I don’t see this as being especially honorable. Giraud was a much more decent man, not to mention Darlan of course, but he was assassinated by the Gaullists. But in fact the worst part of the Gaullian legacy, in my view, is the so-called “Libération” of 1944 and the following “Épuration” that followed under his rule. This is the absolute, un-redeemable stain on this man’s legacy.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    As you know, I do not speak French. So my competence on this is limited.

    That said I get the impression that the Anglo-Americans were generally frustrated with de Gaulle,

    I am also much younger than you are, so I did not live the events you describe.
    , @AP
    Very interesting; I agree with this. It always puzzled me why these people were betrayed.
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  95. @Thorfinnsson
    Off-topic

    I read in a previous thread that German_reader is physically ill and made poor life choices and is thus poor.

    He is of course under no obligation to satisfy my curiosity, but what went wrong? I say this with sympathy and understanding as it could've easily happened to me and very nearly did.

    Ron Unz should add private messages and other messageboard features in light of our growing camaraderie.

    AK: I agree, that would be a good approach, but I am not sure the software is up for that short of giving everyone their own accounts, which would be a major change.
    Given its sensitivity, if German_reader doesn't wish to indulge this discussion and says so, I will remove this post.

    I read in a previous thread that German_reader is physically ill and made poor life choices and is thus poor

    It’s not very interesting, just somewhat severe back issues which I probably should have had operated when I was younger. There’s certainly worse things, but it has definitely had an extremely negative impact on my life.
    Apart from that…well, let’s just say I did humanities at university…which was probably a very bad idea. The German university system can be pretty cruel. Also bureaucratic…a few years ago I had the chance to get a much better job, but it was denied to me based on some absurd bureaucratic rule (introduced by the Schröder government early in the millennium…amusingly enough, it’s supposed to HELP people like me)…which tells you what kind of shit country Germany is, given how other rules (like those against illegal immigration) somehow don’t get enforced. Anyway, the result is that for the past few years I’ve been stuck in low-paid work. I’m trying to rectify the situation, but given my numerous other issues it isn’t easy.
    I hope that’s enough to satisfy your curiosity…my personal life story is rather trivial…and not exactly relevant to the topic of this thread :-)

    Read More
    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    Sorry to hear that, and thank you for answering.

    Your life story is of course not relevant to this thread, but as I've noted before we're developing a brotherhood in this blog. Thus I am interested and care about you.
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  96. @Talha
    Well that’s just great. Why don’t you guys, since you caused the problem in the first place, solve the problem tomorrow and carve out a similar region from Saxony or Bavaria where this persecuted minority can go (since we had relatively good relations before you dumped a bunch of yours on us).

    Then you can have the pleasure of having a nuclear-armed ethno-state with a bunker mentality in your midst. And if the local Germans resist, you can get all indignant about it and call them terrorists and make up for it by giving this ethno-state even more nuclear-armed submarines. That’ll help you assuage the guilt you have for what happened IN EUROPE. Not only in Europe but you brought to occupied Muslim lands:
    http://m.dw.com/en/germany-to-compensate-algerian-jewish-holocaust-survivors/a-42458534

    Except where local authorities were strong enough to resist:
    http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-hurowitz-moroccan-king-mohammed-v-20170425-story.html

    And you can also deal with the zealot cowboys in the US backing them up in the U.N. every time you try to condemn them and helping them always keep a technological edge over European armies.

    Otherwise, you guys can put these opinions where the sun doesn’t shine.

    Well sure, if the world were just, Jews would have gotten the Rhineland instead of Palestine for their state. But the world isn’t just, and tbh I don’t think Arabs and Muslims are completely innocent in this whole affair either since they did eventually expel their Jewish minorities. Now you may argue this wouldn’t have happened without Zionism and colonialism, and probably you’d be right…but frankly, I don’t regard that as relevant today. And given that your own idea of the perfect political order seems to be some kind of Islamic state where minorities don’t have equal political rights, you can save your moral indignation, because it’s exactly such views which will ensure that there’ll never be peace in the Mideast.

    Read More
    • Replies: @French Basque

    And given that your own idea of the perfect political order seems to be some kind of Islamic state where minorities don’t have equal political rights, you can save your moral indignation
     
    Seconded.

    I can't tolerate the Moslem's double standard any more, even when carefully concealed under Talha's suave taqîya.

    I read your earlier message about your current situation and I assure you of my sympathy, and hope that your back condition will improve. I am sure you already know it, but regular, non-strenuous brisk walking typically brings better long-term outcomes than spine surgery. I have in my entourage the example of a person whose lumbar disk surgery did not go well at all, had to be operated twice more, and became almost entirely crippled. Albeit in her 60s already that person made quite a come-back with a combination of stretching, walking, and eating correctly.
    , @Talha
    We didn’t give Jews the keys to the castle but we had thriving communities where there was an understanding of hierarchy and responsibility. You guys are the ones that have this bi-polar approach; let’s let Jews into every nook and cranny of society and government...and then...oh crap, they’re taking over - let’s massacre and expel them!!!

    We aren’t perfect by any means and we are dealing with the situation as imperfect as it is, but Europeans preaching to us about the nonsense they created (and continue to exacerbate - you can stop selling them nuclear submarines any time) is ludicrous and deserves derision.

    Make no bones about it - you guys had a Jew problem - and you dumped it on us. And that kicked off our Jew problem. You don’t want to regard the history as relevant because the fault lies flat at your feet, you just want to preach at others about it.

    And that’s fine; that might work for other Europeans who also want to feel so smug and superior, but any Muslim who knows their history will regard it as utter nonsense.
    , @for-the-record
    since they did eventually expel their Jewish minorities.

    I don't think they were actually expelled from any country (although I may be wrong on this), although their lives were in many cases made very difficult.
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  97. @French Basque
    In the interest of full disclosure: my wife is of Pied-Noir descent. Her mother moved to France as a child in a hurry in July 1962, and her own parents (my wife's grandparents) lost everything that had been patiently and laboriously built by 4 generations of hard-working people originating from Alsace and Sicily for the most part. My in-laws hate de Gaulle with a passion and I have been influenced by their thinking, especially after having heard all the horror stories of what happened during that infamous summer of 1962. Although I am trying to remain even-minded in this regard, it is hard to not objectively see that de Gaulle betrayed the Pied-Noirs, to whom he had made all sorts of promises before his 1958 come-back. Not to mention his complete abandonment of the locals who had been fighting on the side of France (the so-called Harkis), who were butchered in generally atrocious conditions, together with their families, by the FLN victors.

    What should have been done would have been to retain a part of Algérie -- which is entirely a French creation anyway, including its name -- for the Pied-Noirs. There was no way the FLN could have opposed it, having been entirely defeated militarily speaking. But de Gaulle, deluded as he was with his dreams of grandeur, thought that this free gift to the Arabs would make France well positioned to become the head of the non-aligned third way between the USA and the USSR. That turned out to be a complete mistake of course, as this did not buy us anything, as half a century after this massive concession, the official ideology of independent Algeria is still to blame the former French rule for all the current failures (and there are many).

    Regarding 1940, he became a puppet of the English and I don't see this as being especially honorable. Giraud was a much more decent man, not to mention Darlan of course, but he was assassinated by the Gaullists. But in fact the worst part of the Gaullian legacy, in my view, is the so-called "Libération" of 1944 and the following "Épuration" that followed under his rule. This is the absolute, un-redeemable stain on this man's legacy.

    As you know, I do not speak French. So my competence on this is limited.

    That said I get the impression that the Anglo-Americans were generally frustrated with de Gaulle,

    I am also much younger than you are, so I did not live the events you describe.

    Read More
    • Replies: @French Basque

    I am also much younger than you are, so I did not live the events you describe.
     
    My wife's mother was born in 1948 so in fact, I was a bit incorrect in stating that she was a "child" during the summer of 1962. She was a teenager and remembers vividly what happened to them. They had friends who disappeared overnight, never to be found again.

    As you know, I do not speak French. So my competence on this is limited.
     
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oran_massacre_of_1962
    If you are interested in these events, this wikipedia page is actually rather balanced, I find. It also explains why Colonel Bastien-Thiry tried to assassinate de Gaulle one year later (with a justification founded in St Thomas Aquinas and the notion of just tyrannicide).

    That said I get the impression that the Anglo-Americans were generally frustrated with de Gaulle,
     
    Especially the Americans I would say. They had favored Giraud instead (who unlike de Gaulle was a real general -- and a five-star one) but the cunning de Gaulle managed to out-manoeuver them, with the complicity of Churchill.

    Interesting that your parents revived the Basque language for your family. Do you have some kind of accent in Basque as a result?
     
    Quite the contrary in fact, I speak Basque with a very heavy French accent. My children don't have that accent however and are truly bi-lingual (as opposed to me, I cannot honestly claim that).

    What is a Frantziako?
     
    The Basque word to designate a non-Basque French person :) It is not derogatory by the way.

    If you ever find yourself in the American Midwest I will cook dinner for you and your wife with a proper French sauce.
     
    Thank you! I regularly travel to the USA for my work, but unfortunately this is almost always in the leftist Silicon Valley. I do not know much the Midwest except for Yellowstone National Park where I travelled in the mid-1990s just after my military service when I was in need of seeing wide open spaces and not seeing many people. I was not disappointed and enjoyed it a lot. By the way I am not anti-American at all, there are many aspects of traditional American civilization that I appreciate, such as the "courage, determination, and individualism" triptych. It is just too bad that your country, as mine, was taken over by the Js.
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  98. @German_reader

    I read in a previous thread that German_reader is physically ill and made poor life choices and is thus poor
     
    It's not very interesting, just somewhat severe back issues which I probably should have had operated when I was younger. There's certainly worse things, but it has definitely had an extremely negative impact on my life.
    Apart from that...well, let's just say I did humanities at university...which was probably a very bad idea. The German university system can be pretty cruel. Also bureaucratic...a few years ago I had the chance to get a much better job, but it was denied to me based on some absurd bureaucratic rule (introduced by the Schröder government early in the millennium...amusingly enough, it's supposed to HELP people like me)...which tells you what kind of shit country Germany is, given how other rules (like those against illegal immigration) somehow don't get enforced. Anyway, the result is that for the past few years I've been stuck in low-paid work. I'm trying to rectify the situation, but given my numerous other issues it isn't easy.
    I hope that's enough to satisfy your curiosity...my personal life story is rather trivial...and not exactly relevant to the topic of this thread :-)

    Sorry to hear that, and thank you for answering.

    Your life story is of course not relevant to this thread, but as I’ve noted before we’re developing a brotherhood in this blog. Thus I am interested and care about you.

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    • Agree: for-the-record
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  99. Anonymous[108] • Disclaimer says:
    @Lemurmaniac
    There's an old Social Matter article predicting the Russian aim would be to eternally play off the Jew, the Persian, and the Turk. While they're engaged in a three way tug of war in the ME, Russia mediates between them and thus translates a weak hand into a strong one, since Russia gets to decide the 'exception' in the deadlock.

    I think that's what the Kremlin's aiming for, so Eurasianist boomers like the Saker who sees Russia as the Holy Orthodox Hammer which will nail the 'Anglo-Zionist' Empire is sadly mistaken.

    There’s an old Social Matter article predicting the Russian aim would be to eternally play off the Jew, the Persian, and the Turk.

    Nothing of that seems to be currently working. Russia seems to be VERY cornered by Israel and its US goon, trying to keep eye contact while sliding towards the door marked “Emergency Exit: China” while Neo-Caliphate Turkey don’t care about anything and is ready to play hard for territory and Islamic supremacism but may buy a few weapons in the near future as white-knuckled Persians try to hold on for dear life.

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  100. @Thorfinnsson
    How do you suggest Russia retaliate against Israel?

    How do you suggest Russia retaliate against Israel?

    Not inviting Netanyahoo would be a start. If you attack our friends and allies, you should not be treated as a guest of honor at our “sacred” annual ritual.

    Step two: ramp up anti-Israel propaganda on state TV. The Jews are highly sensitive to this stuff. For now domestic propaganda mostly ignores Israel, when they do report on Israel, they cover it positively.

    Ending direct wealth transfers to Israel. Under Putin’s initiative, Russia pays pensions to Soviet Jews, who emigrated to Israel – a bizarre arrangement for all sorts of reasons.

    Russia’s economic relationship with Israel in general is very one-sided and mostly serves as a conduit for Jews to extract wealth from Russia. The government should make it harder for the Israeli citizens to do business in Russia, ideally pressuring them to sell their businesses and get out. This is not a retaliation measure per se, just sound economic nationalism, because having Jewish businesses in Russia is bad for Russians.

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    • Replies: @Dmitry

    Under Putin’s initiative, Russia pays pensions to Soviet Jews, who emigrated to Israel – a bizarre arrangement for all sorts of reasons.
     
    The fact Putin started to do this, must be another confusing thing for people like Saker who say Putin is anti-Israel.

    This said, it seems a minimum social pension - of around $80 a month.

    They are still giving the pension to people who did not accumulate enough pension points to get the pension if they were in Russia, and based on how many years they were in Israel.
    , @Anatoly Karlin
    Look, I like you Felix, often I feel you're my only ideological ally here, but I disagree with almost all of this.

    1. As you note Jews have major influence over the Western media. If you want Russia to take Iran's place as the main enemy of the Jewish people, this is a good way to go about it. Unfortunately, it will also be accompanied by the dislocation of major NATO forces to the Baltics and the Ukraine far earlier than would otherwise be the case.

    2. Russia spends very little on pensions to emigre Jews. Abrogating this will set back rule of law and institute potentially very harmful precedents, which might very well rebound against Russians.

    3. Kristallnacht 2.0 combines the worst of both the above two points.
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  101. @Thorfinnsson
    As you know, I do not speak French. So my competence on this is limited.

    That said I get the impression that the Anglo-Americans were generally frustrated with de Gaulle,

    I am also much younger than you are, so I did not live the events you describe.

    I am also much younger than you are, so I did not live the events you describe.

    My wife’s mother was born in 1948 so in fact, I was a bit incorrect in stating that she was a “child” during the summer of 1962. She was a teenager and remembers vividly what happened to them. They had friends who disappeared overnight, never to be found again.

    As you know, I do not speak French. So my competence on this is limited.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oran_massacre_of_1962

    If you are interested in these events, this wikipedia page is actually rather balanced, I find. It also explains why Colonel Bastien-Thiry tried to assassinate de Gaulle one year later (with a justification founded in St Thomas Aquinas and the notion of just tyrannicide).

    That said I get the impression that the Anglo-Americans were generally frustrated with de Gaulle,

    Especially the Americans I would say. They had favored Giraud instead (who unlike de Gaulle was a real general — and a five-star one) but the cunning de Gaulle managed to out-manoeuver them, with the complicity of Churchill.

    Interesting that your parents revived the Basque language for your family. Do you have some kind of accent in Basque as a result?

    Quite the contrary in fact, I speak Basque with a very heavy French accent. My children don’t have that accent however and are truly bi-lingual (as opposed to me, I cannot honestly claim that).

    What is a Frantziako?

    The Basque word to designate a non-Basque French person :) It is not derogatory by the way.

    If you ever find yourself in the American Midwest I will cook dinner for you and your wife with a proper French sauce.

    Thank you! I regularly travel to the USA for my work, but unfortunately this is almost always in the leftist Silicon Valley. I do not know much the Midwest except for Yellowstone National Park where I travelled in the mid-1990s just after my military service when I was in need of seeing wide open spaces and not seeing many people. I was not disappointed and enjoyed it a lot. By the way I am not anti-American at all, there are many aspects of traditional American civilization that I appreciate, such as the “courage, determination, and individualism” triptych. It is just too bad that your country, as mine, was taken over by the Js.

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    • Replies: @for-the-record
    So what's your view of Mers-el-Kébir? My children did all their schooling in France, I don't think they ever learned anything about it.
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  102. El Dato says:
    @Talha
    Well that’s just great. Why don’t you guys, since you caused the problem in the first place, solve the problem tomorrow and carve out a similar region from Saxony or Bavaria where this persecuted minority can go (since we had relatively good relations before you dumped a bunch of yours on us).

    Then you can have the pleasure of having a nuclear-armed ethno-state with a bunker mentality in your midst. And if the local Germans resist, you can get all indignant about it and call them terrorists and make up for it by giving this ethno-state even more nuclear-armed submarines. That’ll help you assuage the guilt you have for what happened IN EUROPE. Not only in Europe but you brought to occupied Muslim lands:
    http://m.dw.com/en/germany-to-compensate-algerian-jewish-holocaust-survivors/a-42458534

    Except where local authorities were strong enough to resist:
    http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-hurowitz-moroccan-king-mohammed-v-20170425-story.html

    And you can also deal with the zealot cowboys in the US backing them up in the U.N. every time you try to condemn them and helping them always keep a technological edge over European armies.

    Otherwise, you guys can put these opinions where the sun doesn’t shine.

    carve out a similar region from Saxony or Bavaria where this persecuted minority can go (since we had relatively good relations before you dumped a bunch of yours on us).

    I think it’s already occupied by Turks…

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    • Replies: @Talha
    Cool, the Turks took in plenty of fleeing Jews during WW2, maybe they’ll give them a place if they eventually take over. :)

    Peace.
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  103. Mr. Hack says:
    @Anatoly Karlin
    Erm… Iranians and Syrians are not “dying for Russians”, they are all dying for their own interests.

    Syrians – To preserve the regime, reunify the country; Iran – To extend their reach to the Mediterranean, an age-long Persian goal; Russia – For cheap training and establishing a presence in the Levant.

    Can I just randomly point out that Iran has not even recognized Crimea as part of Russia.

    Who is fighting for Russians? The Donbass. Those people really were betrayed by Putin. There is nobody to betray in Syria.

    Who is fighting for Russians? The Donbass. Those people really were betrayed by Putin. There is nobody to betray in Syria.

    Without initial Russian inspiration (read: Putin’s knowledge and approval of) there would not have been a Donbas war. Outsiders (Russians, Chechens etc;) were initially flooded into the region to start this maniacal war. Having unnecessarily riled up the area against the Kyivan center, going on four years now, Putin has decided to just let the place rot in the aftermath of heavy fighting, keeping the embers of war smoldering with a much smaller life support than initially given. You cannot dispute that if the support for Russia had been nearly as high in Donbas as it was in the Crimea, there would be no war still going on today, and the Donbas would at least be some sort of ‘autonomous’ Russian protectorate. It was a poorly designed operation doomed for failure from the very start. Looks like this first test case of the Triune theory (in an area of mixed Russian/Ukrainian citizenry) has failed miserably!

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    • Replies: @Mikhail

    Without initial Russian inspiration (read: Putin’s knowledge and approval of) there would not have been a Donbas war. Outsiders (Russians, Chechens etc;) were initially flooded into the region to start this maniacal war. Having unnecessarily riled up the area against the Kyivan center, going on four years now, Putin has decided to just let the place rot in the aftermath of heavy fighting, keeping the embers of war smoldering with a much smaller life support than initially given. You cannot dispute that if the support for Russia had been nearly as high in Donbas as it was in the Crimea, there would be no war still going on today, and the Donbas would at least be some sort of ‘autonomous’ Russian protectorate. It was a poorly designed operation doomed for failure from the very start. Looks like this first test case of the Triune theory (in an area of mixed Russian/Ukrainian citizenry) has failed miserably!
     
    The situation in Donbass was the result of the way the coup in Kiev went off. Specifically:

    - overthrowing a democratically elected prez, who just signed an internationally brokered power sharing arrangement for the next 12 months or so
    - followed by the disproportionate number of nationalist anti-Russian Svoboda members to ministerial positions
    - anti-Russian actions like the blowing up of Kutuzov monument (a Svoboda desire) and a proposed move to further limit Russian language use.

    Like it or not, pro-Russian sentiment exists within the territory that comprised the Ukrainian SSR.

    There's absolutely no evidence whatsoever to contradict that the majority of the Donbass rebels are indigenous to the territory of the former Ukrainian SSR. This includes the overall makeup of the Donbass leadership. BTW, it's not like the Kiev regime hasn't included some foreign support.

    During the American Revolution, the colonists opposed to Britain had the considerable help of the French as well as some other foreigners. In turn, the Brits employed Hessians and even sought the use of Cossacks. BTW, there were many colonists opposed to independence from Britain who fought on the British side.

    Concerning Donbass, whatever polling has been done, indicates a murkiness along the lines of not being gung ho on joining Russia, while not actively opposing such if it happened, along with opposing the Kiev regime. This very scenario has led some to second guess the Kremlin for not being as assertive as it arguably could've and should've been.

    People the world over prefer a winning attitude. If such is lacking, the enthusiasm is understandably lower.
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  104. @German_reader
    Well sure, if the world were just, Jews would have gotten the Rhineland instead of Palestine for their state. But the world isn't just, and tbh I don't think Arabs and Muslims are completely innocent in this whole affair either since they did eventually expel their Jewish minorities. Now you may argue this wouldn't have happened without Zionism and colonialism, and probably you'd be right...but frankly, I don't regard that as relevant today. And given that your own idea of the perfect political order seems to be some kind of Islamic state where minorities don't have equal political rights, you can save your moral indignation, because it's exactly such views which will ensure that there'll never be peace in the Mideast.

    And given that your own idea of the perfect political order seems to be some kind of Islamic state where minorities don’t have equal political rights, you can save your moral indignation

    Seconded.

    I can’t tolerate the Moslem’s double standard any more, even when carefully concealed under Talha’s suave taqîya.

    I read your earlier message about your current situation and I assure you of my sympathy, and hope that your back condition will improve. I am sure you already know it, but regular, non-strenuous brisk walking typically brings better long-term outcomes than spine surgery. I have in my entourage the example of a person whose lumbar disk surgery did not go well at all, had to be operated twice more, and became almost entirely crippled. Albeit in her 60s already that person made quite a come-back with a combination of stretching, walking, and eating correctly.

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    • Replies: @Talha

    I can’t tolerate the Moslem’s double standard any more, even when carefully concealed under Talha’s suave taqîya.
     
    You can point out where I’ve ever done taqiyyah chief. I’ve never, ever stated that non-Muslim minorities have or should have the same enfranchisement as Muslims in Muslim lands. The highest levels of government and power are reserved naturally for Muslims in nations that explicitly state they are built upon the foundations of Islam in their constitutions and charters. You guys can feel free to revert to pre-secular norms and discriminate likewise against Muslims by declaring yourselves Christian states or just drop the pretense of secularism and explicitly just state you are a “not-Muslim” nation.

    Then you can stop the annoying virtue signaling because it’s getting old. Really old.

    Can’t have it both ways, which way you want to go?

    , @German_reader
    Thanks for your good wishes, it is appreciated!

    Regarding Talha, I actually value his comments, and find him quite honest in expressing his world view (which I find rather disturbing for many reasons) so I wouldn't accuse him of taqiyya. I'm a bit sorry my comment seems to have triggered him. It's certainly true that the Palestinians in the 1940s suffered grievously as a result of developments for which they weren't responsible. I still believe though that they aren't without a certain responsibility for their current situation. Their adoption of nihilistic terrorist tactics and explicitly Islamist ideology make it hard to feel unqualified sympathy for them imo.
    Btw, interesting you mentioned you the Oran massacre. I learned about that incident a few years ago in a tv documentary about the Algerian war and was irritated that no one seems to know what exactly happened there and how many Europeans were killed (some estimates go in the hundreds or even thousands after all). It surprised me that there never seems to have been a conclusive investigation about this, but I guess that wasn't opportune in France after 1962.
    , @AP

    I am sure you already know it, but regular, non-strenuous brisk walking typically brings better long-term outcomes than spine surgery.
     
    Correct. I too have some back pain; it went away after a week in Moscow where I was walking everywhere (20 km one day).
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  105. Talha says:
    @German_reader
    Well sure, if the world were just, Jews would have gotten the Rhineland instead of Palestine for their state. But the world isn't just, and tbh I don't think Arabs and Muslims are completely innocent in this whole affair either since they did eventually expel their Jewish minorities. Now you may argue this wouldn't have happened without Zionism and colonialism, and probably you'd be right...but frankly, I don't regard that as relevant today. And given that your own idea of the perfect political order seems to be some kind of Islamic state where minorities don't have equal political rights, you can save your moral indignation, because it's exactly such views which will ensure that there'll never be peace in the Mideast.

    We didn’t give Jews the keys to the castle but we had thriving communities where there was an understanding of hierarchy and responsibility. You guys are the ones that have this bi-polar approach; let’s let Jews into every nook and cranny of society and government…and then…oh crap, they’re taking over – let’s massacre and expel them!!!

    We aren’t perfect by any means and we are dealing with the situation as imperfect as it is, but Europeans preaching to us about the nonsense they created (and continue to exacerbate – you can stop selling them nuclear submarines any time) is ludicrous and deserves derision.

    Make no bones about it – you guys had a Jew problem – and you dumped it on us. And that kicked off our Jew problem. You don’t want to regard the history as relevant because the fault lies flat at your feet, you just want to preach at others about it.

    And that’s fine; that might work for other Europeans who also want to feel so smug and superior, but any Muslim who knows their history will regard it as utter nonsense.

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    • Replies: @German_reader

    You don’t want to regard the history as relevant because the fault lies flat at your feet, you just want to preach at others about it.
     
    Well yes, but what's your point? True, Europeans dumped their "Jewish problem" on Palestine, and without the genocide of Jews by Germans it probably wouldn't have happened like that. On a normative level, it probably shouldn't have happened like that, it certainly wasn't just. But it did happen and Israel exists now. And if you think that Israel should be dissolved and its Jews leave for Europe or the US, that looks rather unlikely.
    , @Hyperborean
    The Zionist movement predates the rise of National Socialism and the Holocaust, the Jews were pretty determined in reconquering Palestine, whether they were or were not being oppressed in Europe.

    The Palestine-only faction won out and they rejected all other proposals for a Jewish state somewhere else. They wanted to recreate Israel long before Hitler burst on the scene.

    It would have taken longer and the formation of Israel would have occurred in a different manner.

    However, you would have had a Jew problem in the end regardless of whether Hitler had decided to exterminate European Jewry or not, since the Jews do not recognise or acknowledge limits to their aims and ambitions.

    Fervent Zionist dreams of recreating Israel began decades before. It is only by your disingenuous framing of the Shoah as the event that led to the creation of Israel that your resentment of Europeans makes sense.

    Perhaps if you spent more time fixing your own problems and actually forming an actual anti-Israeli front rather than having Saudi ministers paling around with Israelis you might actually accomplish something.

    I think it is darkly amusing that the Shia forces of Iran and Hezbollah are serious about taking out Israel yet some Sunni countries would rather focus on teaming up with Israel and engage in sectarian war with the aforementioned forces. Other countries, like Turkey, are just full of empty air and more interested in carrying out their own little projects.

    I don't give one whit whether you wipe Israel from the map, I don't care about your semitic feud, and I would rather avoid sticking our hands into that hornets' nest.

    Nevertheless your kind has a history of complaining about the past to avoid taking concrete actions in the present. If you are serious about fixing your problem then why don't take the kind of initiative the Jihadists took in Yugoslavia or Afghanistan?

    It would certainly be much more productive that talking about how much it is our fault that the Jews broke your fragile national blossoms.

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  106. Make no bones about it – you guys had a Jew problem – and you dumped it on us. And that kicked off our Jew problem. You don’t want to regard the history as relevant because the fault lies flat at your feet, you just want to preach at others about it.

    Quite the opposite, the Js are a problem to us from their own decision:

    Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children.

    [Mt 23:25]

    We also have a major problem with the semitic heresy known as islam.

    Also your Peace signature should be considered for what it is: taqîya. It is truly irritating. You should stop putting it.

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    • Replies: @Talha
    Awww - does it annoy you that I choose to sign off with “peace” with the people I am engaging with in a civil discussion? Cool, I won’t use it with you.
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  107. Talha says:
    @French Basque

    And given that your own idea of the perfect political order seems to be some kind of Islamic state where minorities don’t have equal political rights, you can save your moral indignation
     
    Seconded.

    I can't tolerate the Moslem's double standard any more, even when carefully concealed under Talha's suave taqîya.

    I read your earlier message about your current situation and I assure you of my sympathy, and hope that your back condition will improve. I am sure you already know it, but regular, non-strenuous brisk walking typically brings better long-term outcomes than spine surgery. I have in my entourage the example of a person whose lumbar disk surgery did not go well at all, had to be operated twice more, and became almost entirely crippled. Albeit in her 60s already that person made quite a come-back with a combination of stretching, walking, and eating correctly.

    I can’t tolerate the Moslem’s double standard any more, even when carefully concealed under Talha’s suave taqîya.

    You can point out where I’ve ever done taqiyyah chief. I’ve never, ever stated that non-Muslim minorities have or should have the same enfranchisement as Muslims in Muslim lands. The highest levels of government and power are reserved naturally for Muslims in nations that explicitly state they are built upon the foundations of Islam in their constitutions and charters. You guys can feel free to revert to pre-secular norms and discriminate likewise against Muslims by declaring yourselves Christian states or just drop the pretense of secularism and explicitly just state you are a “not-Muslim” nation.

    Then you can stop the annoying virtue signaling because it’s getting old. Really old.

    Can’t have it both ways, which way you want to go?

    Read More
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  108. Talha says:
    @El Dato

    carve out a similar region from Saxony or Bavaria where this persecuted minority can go (since we had relatively good relations before you dumped a bunch of yours on us).
     
    I think it's already occupied by Turks...

    Cool, the Turks took in plenty of fleeing Jews during WW2, maybe they’ll give them a place if they eventually take over. :)

    Peace.

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  109. AP says:
    @French Basque
    In the interest of full disclosure: my wife is of Pied-Noir descent. Her mother moved to France as a child in a hurry in July 1962, and her own parents (my wife's grandparents) lost everything that had been patiently and laboriously built by 4 generations of hard-working people originating from Alsace and Sicily for the most part. My in-laws hate de Gaulle with a passion and I have been influenced by their thinking, especially after having heard all the horror stories of what happened during that infamous summer of 1962. Although I am trying to remain even-minded in this regard, it is hard to not objectively see that de Gaulle betrayed the Pied-Noirs, to whom he had made all sorts of promises before his 1958 come-back. Not to mention his complete abandonment of the locals who had been fighting on the side of France (the so-called Harkis), who were butchered in generally atrocious conditions, together with their families, by the FLN victors.

    What should have been done would have been to retain a part of Algérie -- which is entirely a French creation anyway, including its name -- for the Pied-Noirs. There was no way the FLN could have opposed it, having been entirely defeated militarily speaking. But de Gaulle, deluded as he was with his dreams of grandeur, thought that this free gift to the Arabs would make France well positioned to become the head of the non-aligned third way between the USA and the USSR. That turned out to be a complete mistake of course, as this did not buy us anything, as half a century after this massive concession, the official ideology of independent Algeria is still to blame the former French rule for all the current failures (and there are many).

    Regarding 1940, he became a puppet of the English and I don't see this as being especially honorable. Giraud was a much more decent man, not to mention Darlan of course, but he was assassinated by the Gaullists. But in fact the worst part of the Gaullian legacy, in my view, is the so-called "Libération" of 1944 and the following "Épuration" that followed under his rule. This is the absolute, un-redeemable stain on this man's legacy.

    Very interesting; I agree with this. It always puzzled me why these people were betrayed.

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    • Replies: @French Basque
    Thank you. And the sad part is that most of my compatriots have a good opinion of the traitor that de Gaulle was.

    On the other hand, one of the core constituencies of the Front National is the Pied-Noirs and their descendants, and historically one of the very first.

    Another thing of interest regarding de Gaulle for you guys (or more likely your ancestors) who suffered under the communist yoke: he always played a very murky game with the commies. For example, exactly 50 years ago, as the "events" of May 1968 in Paris were beginning to get seriously out of hand, by the middle of the month, he was visiting Ceausescu in Romania and being all chummy with him.
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  110. @French Basque

    And given that your own idea of the perfect political order seems to be some kind of Islamic state where minorities don’t have equal political rights, you can save your moral indignation
     
    Seconded.

    I can't tolerate the Moslem's double standard any more, even when carefully concealed under Talha's suave taqîya.

    I read your earlier message about your current situation and I assure you of my sympathy, and hope that your back condition will improve. I am sure you already know it, but regular, non-strenuous brisk walking typically brings better long-term outcomes than spine surgery. I have in my entourage the example of a person whose lumbar disk surgery did not go well at all, had to be operated twice more, and became almost entirely crippled. Albeit in her 60s already that person made quite a come-back with a combination of stretching, walking, and eating correctly.

    Thanks for your good wishes, it is appreciated!

    Regarding Talha, I actually value his comments, and find him quite honest in expressing his world view (which I find rather disturbing for many reasons) so I wouldn’t accuse him of taqiyya. I’m a bit sorry my comment seems to have triggered him. It’s certainly true that the Palestinians in the 1940s suffered grievously as a result of developments for which they weren’t responsible. I still believe though that they aren’t without a certain responsibility for their current situation. Their adoption of nihilistic terrorist tactics and explicitly Islamist ideology make it hard to feel unqualified sympathy for them imo.
    Btw, interesting you mentioned you the Oran massacre. I learned about that incident a few years ago in a tv documentary about the Algerian war and was irritated that no one seems to know what exactly happened there and how many Europeans were killed (some estimates go in the hundreds or even thousands after all). It surprised me that there never seems to have been a conclusive investigation about this, but I guess that wasn’t opportune in France after 1962.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha

    Their adoption of nihilistic terrorist tactics and explicitly Islamist ideology make it hard to feel unqualified sympathy for them imo.
     
    I completely agree here, and have always condemned actions that are not sanctioned by sacred law. As long as Palestinians (and other Muslims) continue to violate the precepts of their religion, any victory will be elusive and we will continue to be humiliated at the hands of others until we get the message and reform.

    That is not what upsets me; it’s this preachy attitude regarding the issue of Israel/Palestine that I see coming from Europeans that forget that we are essentially dealing with the fallout of their problem.

    I’m glad you are well-read enough to recognize where the problem originated from and it didn’t just magically drop out of the sky.
    , @French Basque
    Yes, and in fact the Oran massacre is only the tip of the iceberg.

    The father of friend, now deceased, was a young (commissioned) officer who served during the war in Algérie in a commando de chasse, those units who were instrumental in militarily defeating the FLN (again, we have to remember that de Gaulle gave independence to those would had actually been militarily defeated). A few years before he died I spent almost one afternoon speaking with this man about that war. He told me in particular of one occasion when they raided (too late alas) a village where a group of European civilian hostages had been brought by a group of fellaghas after having been abducted from a Pied-Noir settlement. I don't event want to write here what he told me, that would be obscene, but suffice it to say that what he saw, especially what these animals had done to the women, was an absolute abomination. This rugged man, in his 70s at the time, and almost 50 years after the fact, was still visibly traumatized by what he saw. What surprises me the most is how he, and his fellow junior officers, managed to prevent their men from killing off the entire Arab village in retaliation. Placed in the same situation, I am certain that I would not have exercised such restraint.

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  111. AP says:
    @French Basque

    And given that your own idea of the perfect political order seems to be some kind of Islamic state where minorities don’t have equal political rights, you can save your moral indignation
     
    Seconded.

    I can't tolerate the Moslem's double standard any more, even when carefully concealed under Talha's suave taqîya.

    I read your earlier message about your current situation and I assure you of my sympathy, and hope that your back condition will improve. I am sure you already know it, but regular, non-strenuous brisk walking typically brings better long-term outcomes than spine surgery. I have in my entourage the example of a person whose lumbar disk surgery did not go well at all, had to be operated twice more, and became almost entirely crippled. Albeit in her 60s already that person made quite a come-back with a combination of stretching, walking, and eating correctly.

    I am sure you already know it, but regular, non-strenuous brisk walking typically brings better long-term outcomes than spine surgery.

    Correct. I too have some back pain; it went away after a week in Moscow where I was walking everywhere (20 km one day).

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  112. Talha says:
    @French Basque

    Make no bones about it – you guys had a Jew problem – and you dumped it on us. And that kicked off our Jew problem. You don’t want to regard the history as relevant because the fault lies flat at your feet, you just want to preach at others about it.
     
    Quite the opposite, the Js are a problem to us from their own decision:

    Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children.
     

    [Mt 23:25]

    We also have a major problem with the semitic heresy known as islam.

    Also your Peace signature should be considered for what it is: taqîya. It is truly irritating. You should stop putting it.

    Awww – does it annoy you that I choose to sign off with “peace” with the people I am engaging with in a civil discussion? Cool, I won’t use it with you.

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  113. You guys can feel free to revert to pre-secular norms and discriminate likewise against Muslims by declaring yourselves Christian states or just drop the pretense of secularism and explicitly just state you are a “not-Muslim” nation.

    I for one am not a proponent of secularism. And yes I routinely say that I support a Moslem-free state. Without Jews either.

    Everything will be much better that way, for all parties involved. We can continue working on our plans to colonize Mars while you guys can return to being camel herders once all your oil is gone. For one thing de Gaulle was right, when he stated to Peyrefitte as a justification for dumping Algeria, that the islamic sphere had not produced anything of value in the last 1000 years.

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  114. @Anatoly Karlin
    Erm… Iranians and Syrians are not “dying for Russians”, they are all dying for their own interests.

    Syrians – To preserve the regime, reunify the country; Iran – To extend their reach to the Mediterranean, an age-long Persian goal; Russia – For cheap training and establishing a presence in the Levant.

    Can I just randomly point out that Iran has not even recognized Crimea as part of Russia.

    Who is fighting for Russians? The Donbass. Those people really were betrayed by Putin. There is nobody to betray in Syria.

    Can I just randomly point out that Iran has not even recognized Crimea as part of Russia.

    Their position has been the same as that of China — no formal recognition, but one of a relatively small number of countries (26) to vote against UN resolutions in 2016 and 2017 that called Russia an “occupying power”.

    Only 10 countries have formally recognised the annexation: Afghanistan, Bolivia, Cuba, Kyrgyzstan, Nicaragua, North Korea, Sudan, Syria, Venezuela, Zimbabwe.

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  115. @Talha
    We didn’t give Jews the keys to the castle but we had thriving communities where there was an understanding of hierarchy and responsibility. You guys are the ones that have this bi-polar approach; let’s let Jews into every nook and cranny of society and government...and then...oh crap, they’re taking over - let’s massacre and expel them!!!

    We aren’t perfect by any means and we are dealing with the situation as imperfect as it is, but Europeans preaching to us about the nonsense they created (and continue to exacerbate - you can stop selling them nuclear submarines any time) is ludicrous and deserves derision.

    Make no bones about it - you guys had a Jew problem - and you dumped it on us. And that kicked off our Jew problem. You don’t want to regard the history as relevant because the fault lies flat at your feet, you just want to preach at others about it.

    And that’s fine; that might work for other Europeans who also want to feel so smug and superior, but any Muslim who knows their history will regard it as utter nonsense.

    You don’t want to regard the history as relevant because the fault lies flat at your feet, you just want to preach at others about it.

    Well yes, but what’s your point? True, Europeans dumped their “Jewish problem” on Palestine, and without the genocide of Jews by Germans it probably wouldn’t have happened like that. On a normative level, it probably shouldn’t have happened like that, it certainly wasn’t just. But it did happen and Israel exists now. And if you think that Israel should be dissolved and its Jews leave for Europe or the US, that looks rather unlikely.

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    • Replies: @Talha

    Well yes, but what’s your point?
     
    Well, you actually made my point with the rest of your statement. Again - it was much more about the preachy attitude.

    And if you think that Israel should be dissolved and its Jews leave for Europe or the US
     
    So we can deal with the problem in a century or two after you guys go postal on them again? No thanks!

    No, we'll clean up the mess. A lot of it has to do with the reformation of Muslim attitudes back to normative religious doctrine and removal of the nonsense that Arab nationalism brought with it. I personally don't see Israel lasting that far into the future in its current form - maybe another century, maybe a little more (highly depends on US dominance on the world stage also). Jews will have to decide (along with Muslims of the area) - do we want to keep on this path or go back to how it was where Jews could settle and have communities across the Muslim world? Do Jews want their little bunker or do they want freedom of movement? They'll have to stop encouraging the US to destroy all the ME around them and the Muslims will have to also show that Jews will have protection in the places they want to settle. This may be an easier sell for Middle Eastern Jews, but harder for the European Jews whose insane pipe-dream this whole thing was. Will it be the same as what they have currently in Europe? No - Europe is not the ME, but it can be peaceful and even pleasant.

    I don't mind (and actually think it a good thing) Israel proper being absorbed into a wider economic-political cooperative (kind of like the EU) across the Middle East where they have a level of semi-autonomy in certain areas. We've done the millet thing before for centuries so this is nothing new for us, this would only be modified to come up to modern standards.

    Peace.

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  116. Talha says:
    @German_reader
    Thanks for your good wishes, it is appreciated!

    Regarding Talha, I actually value his comments, and find him quite honest in expressing his world view (which I find rather disturbing for many reasons) so I wouldn't accuse him of taqiyya. I'm a bit sorry my comment seems to have triggered him. It's certainly true that the Palestinians in the 1940s suffered grievously as a result of developments for which they weren't responsible. I still believe though that they aren't without a certain responsibility for their current situation. Their adoption of nihilistic terrorist tactics and explicitly Islamist ideology make it hard to feel unqualified sympathy for them imo.
    Btw, interesting you mentioned you the Oran massacre. I learned about that incident a few years ago in a tv documentary about the Algerian war and was irritated that no one seems to know what exactly happened there and how many Europeans were killed (some estimates go in the hundreds or even thousands after all). It surprised me that there never seems to have been a conclusive investigation about this, but I guess that wasn't opportune in France after 1962.

    Their adoption of nihilistic terrorist tactics and explicitly Islamist ideology make it hard to feel unqualified sympathy for them imo.

    I completely agree here, and have always condemned actions that are not sanctioned by sacred law. As long as Palestinians (and other Muslims) continue to violate the precepts of their religion, any victory will be elusive and we will continue to be humiliated at the hands of others until we get the message and reform.

    That is not what upsets me; it’s this preachy attitude regarding the issue of Israel/Palestine that I see coming from Europeans that forget that we are essentially dealing with the fallout of their problem.

    I’m glad you are well-read enough to recognize where the problem originated from and it didn’t just magically drop out of the sky.

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    • Replies: @German_reader

    it’s this preachy attitude regarding the issue of Israel/Palestine that I see coming from Europeans that forget that we are essentially dealing with the fallout of their problem
     
    I'm not preaching, I merely stated my dislike for both parties in the Israel/Palestine conflict, and while there are of course plenty of decent individuals on both sides, by and large I stand by my opinion. In my view both sides have legitimate interests and grievances, but both sides have plenty of absolutely repellent nutters in their ranks for whom I feel zero sympathy. Obviously I would wish for a peaceful solution to the conflict, but I'm definitely not going to voice unconditional support for any side there. Simply not my fight.
    And I don't think anyone who knows about the issues would deny that the conflict is a result of European colonialism (specifically British colonialism in this case) and European antisemitism (especially the German Nazi genocide of the Jews)...that's a point even some left-wing Israelis make btw. But that's mostly a historical issue now.
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  117. Major premise  [Quran 2-191]:

    And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter… and fight them until fitnah is no more, and religion is for Allah

    Minor premise [Talha #166 regarding his alleged rejection of violence]:

    I completely agree here, and have always condemned actions that are not sanctioned by sacred law.

    Ergo:
    Talha is a practitioner of taqîya.

    Plus we know you guys. We’ve lived with you for generations.

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    • Replies: @German_reader

    Talha #166 regarding his alleged rejection of violence
     
    I don't think Talha has ever claimed to reject violence, he just wants it regulated (and thereby limited) by Islamic law. He doesn't pretend to be a turn-the-other-cheek pacifist.
    Personally I find his comments quite interesting...and frequently disturbing since they indicate the yawning gulf between the world view of even a probably relatively moderate, if conservative, pious Muslim and the world view of most Westerners. It's the kind of thing liberals should be forced to read imo, maybe it would help them understand that more Islam in western societies is likely to lead to potentially quite severe conflict, even if one recognizes that on a personal level many Muslims aren't especially vicious people (Talha certainly doesn't strike me as especially violence-prone from his internet persona).
    , @Talha
    Look, you seem new here...so welcome.

    A little intro on my part; I'm a traditional Muslim, Sunni Orthodox following the Hanafi school (mostly Maturidi in theological precepts) and a student of the Naqshbandi Sufi Order.

    I've been studying Shariah for over a decade under qualified scholars of the Hanafi school. Some of the people I have taken classes with have learned under the top scholars of the Muslim world.

    If you have to look up the term "Hanafi", you are trying to punch way, way above your level.

    Quoting random verses and hadith may get you somewhere with the ignorant or frat boys, but we know our verses, we know our religion. It has been expounded upon by scholars for centuries; men who devoted their entire lives to figuring it out. Let me be clear, neither you nor I (nor anyone here) is qualified to derive any ruling or precept from a verse of the Qur'an. If you think you are, that's your problem, not ours.

    If your contention is that Muslims are commanded to kill non-Muslims everywhere we come across them; then this is juvenile nonsense. None of our scholars have ever stated this, nor have any serious non-Muslim academic researchers of Islam. If you want to read a fairly good book about the subject of jihad, then I suggest this one by Prof. Bonner:
    https://press.princeton.edu/titles/8280.html

    I would even recommend this one by Prof. Cook:
    https://www.ucpress.edu/book.php?isbn=9780520287327

    Both are by non-Muslims but look at the concept from an academic perspective.

    Up your game - do some serious research (please don't waste my time with quotes from Zionist fanboy websites like JihadWatch) and then come back with what the scholars of our normative tradition say and we can have an intelligent conversation about Islamic doctrine.

    Otherwise, stick to saying I'm a taqiyyah Muzzie and hope other people here take you seriously.
    , @Anon
    The Prophet's sayings have to be taken in context, and not even necessarily their original context (which is open to scholarly debate*), but the context in which they are taken by traditional Muslims. Otherwise you get a situation analogous to that described by Cardinal Newman:

    "I hold in my hand," continued the speaker, "a book which I have obtained under very remarkable circumstances. It is not known to the British people, it is circulated only among the lawyers, merchants, and aristocracy, and its restrictive use is secured only by the most solemn oaths, the most fearful penalties, and the utmost vigilance of the police. ... It is called 'Blackstone's Commentaries on the Laws of England,' ...

    "Now, I should say, gentlemen, that this book, while it is confined to certain classes, is of those classes, on the other hand, of judges, and lawyers, and privy councillors, and justices of the peace, and police magistrates, and clergy, and country gentlemen, the guide, and I may say, the gospel. I open the book, gentlemen, and what are the first words which meet my eyes? 'The King can do no wrong.' I beg you to attend, gentlemen, to this most significant assertion; one was accustomed to think that no child of man had the gift of impeccability; one had imagined that, simply speaking, impeccability was a divine attribute; but this British Bible, as I may call it, distinctly ascribes an absolute sinlessness to the King of Great Britain and Ireland. Observe, I am using no words of my own, I am still but quoting what meets my eyes in this remarkable document. The words run thus: 'It is an axiom of the law of the land that the King himself can do no wrong.' Was I wrong, then, in speaking of the atheistical maxims of John Bullism? But this is far from all: the writer goes on actually to ascribe to the Sovereign (I tremble while I pronounce the words) absolute perfection; for he speaks thus: 'The law ascribes to the King in his political capacity ABSOLUTE PERFECTION; the King can do no wrong!'—(groans). One had thought that no human power could thus be described; but the British legislature, judicature, and jurisprudence, have had the unspeakable effrontery to impute to their crowned and sceptred idol, to their doll,"—here cries of "shame, shame," from the same individual who had distinguished himself in an earlier part of the speech—"to this doll, this puppet whom they have dressed up with a lion and a unicorn, the attribute of ABSOLUTE PERFECTION!" Here the individual who had several times interrupted the speaker sprung up, in spite of the efforts of persons about him to keep him down, and cried out, as far as his words could be collected, "You cowardly liar, our dear good little Queen," when he was immediately saluted with a cry of "Turn him out," and soon made his exit from the meeting.
     
    I don't think I disagree with you with respect to actual policy recommendations.

    *It is difficult for anyone other than an interested party to deny the enormous development of Islamic doctrine between the days of the Prophet and the days of the early Abbasid caliphate when a great deal of formalization seems to have been done.
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  118. @Talha

    Their adoption of nihilistic terrorist tactics and explicitly Islamist ideology make it hard to feel unqualified sympathy for them imo.
     
    I completely agree here, and have always condemned actions that are not sanctioned by sacred law. As long as Palestinians (and other Muslims) continue to violate the precepts of their religion, any victory will be elusive and we will continue to be humiliated at the hands of others until we get the message and reform.

    That is not what upsets me; it’s this preachy attitude regarding the issue of Israel/Palestine that I see coming from Europeans that forget that we are essentially dealing with the fallout of their problem.

    I’m glad you are well-read enough to recognize where the problem originated from and it didn’t just magically drop out of the sky.

    it’s this preachy attitude regarding the issue of Israel/Palestine that I see coming from Europeans that forget that we are essentially dealing with the fallout of their problem

    I’m not preaching, I merely stated my dislike for both parties in the Israel/Palestine conflict, and while there are of course plenty of decent individuals on both sides, by and large I stand by my opinion. In my view both sides have legitimate interests and grievances, but both sides have plenty of absolutely repellent nutters in their ranks for whom I feel zero sympathy. Obviously I would wish for a peaceful solution to the conflict, but I’m definitely not going to voice unconditional support for any side there. Simply not my fight.
    And I don’t think anyone who knows about the issues would deny that the conflict is a result of European colonialism (specifically British colonialism in this case) and European antisemitism (especially the German Nazi genocide of the Jews)…that’s a point even some left-wing Israelis make btw. But that’s mostly a historical issue now.

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  119. @German_reader
    Well sure, if the world were just, Jews would have gotten the Rhineland instead of Palestine for their state. But the world isn't just, and tbh I don't think Arabs and Muslims are completely innocent in this whole affair either since they did eventually expel their Jewish minorities. Now you may argue this wouldn't have happened without Zionism and colonialism, and probably you'd be right...but frankly, I don't regard that as relevant today. And given that your own idea of the perfect political order seems to be some kind of Islamic state where minorities don't have equal political rights, you can save your moral indignation, because it's exactly such views which will ensure that there'll never be peace in the Mideast.

    since they did eventually expel their Jewish minorities.

    I don’t think they were actually expelled from any country (although I may be wrong on this), although their lives were in many cases made very difficult.

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    • Replies: @German_reader
    I admit to not knowing the details, but at least in Iraq there were anti-Jewish riots iirc (starting in 1941 when there was an abortive pro-Axis coup).
    Nasser's Egypt probably also wasn't that pleasant, didn't they also remove Greeks and other minorities from Alexandria?
    Obviously nothing comparable to what the Nazis and other European fascists did. But it does somewhat complicate the Palestine issue.
    , @Talha
    This depends; mostly it was pressure but there were instances of expulsion as well.

    As I’ve stated; our idiot Arab nationalists played right into the hands of their idiot Jewish nationalists by treating centuries-old Jewish communities as fifth columnists in toto.

    Peace.
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  120. @for-the-record
    since they did eventually expel their Jewish minorities.

    I don't think they were actually expelled from any country (although I may be wrong on this), although their lives were in many cases made very difficult.

    I admit to not knowing the details, but at least in Iraq there were anti-Jewish riots iirc (starting in 1941 when there was an abortive pro-Axis coup).
    Nasser’s Egypt probably also wasn’t that pleasant, didn’t they also remove Greeks and other minorities from Alexandria?
    Obviously nothing comparable to what the Nazis and other European fascists did. But it does somewhat complicate the Palestine issue.

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  121. songbird says:
    @Talha
    Well that’s just great. Why don’t you guys, since you caused the problem in the first place, solve the problem tomorrow and carve out a similar region from Saxony or Bavaria where this persecuted minority can go (since we had relatively good relations before you dumped a bunch of yours on us).

    Then you can have the pleasure of having a nuclear-armed ethno-state with a bunker mentality in your midst. And if the local Germans resist, you can get all indignant about it and call them terrorists and make up for it by giving this ethno-state even more nuclear-armed submarines. That’ll help you assuage the guilt you have for what happened IN EUROPE. Not only in Europe but you brought to occupied Muslim lands:
    http://m.dw.com/en/germany-to-compensate-algerian-jewish-holocaust-survivors/a-42458534

    Except where local authorities were strong enough to resist:
    http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-hurowitz-moroccan-king-mohammed-v-20170425-story.html

    And you can also deal with the zealot cowboys in the US backing them up in the U.N. every time you try to condemn them and helping them always keep a technological edge over European armies.

    Otherwise, you guys can put these opinions where the sun doesn’t shine.

    That is rich.

    But here’s the thing: Zionism existed before WW2, and Jews did not have any less of a persecution complex, or less of a desire to settle Israel. They were settling it when it was part of the Ottoman empire. They had the Turks wrapped around their little finger, even when they were massacring the Armenians and sharpening their knives in front of the Greeks.

    There’s also a lot of hypocrisy fundamental in your indignation. Those “occupied Muslim lands” were really Christian lands occupied by Muslims. Similarly, Europe is occupied by more Muslims than there are Jews in Israel. We also took in many of your Jews too who were fleeing the threat of death. Islam has a long history of persecuting other religions. It began with Muhammad who himself put Jews to the sword. Jews who were, of course, living in Arabia before Islam came into being, and I am pretty sure there are none there now. Maybe, Arabia should be settled with Jews to make up for that violent past.

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    • Replies: @Talha
    All lands are occupied by someone in the past. Christians are likewise guilty of this:
    https://christianhistoryinstitute.org/magazine/article/interview-converting-by-the-sword

    Muslims were simply way better at it. And those populations converted over time to Islam themselves. And some of those Christians were quite happy we kicked out the Byzantines:
    “The persecution of the Syrian Church by the Byzantine Empire did not end until the appearance of Islam. Only through the campaigns of Islam in the first half of the 7th century was it possible to free the East from the Byzantines and the Persians. This happened with the help of the members of the Syrian Church; the original inhabitants of Syria of whom one part was of Aramaic origin who inhabited these areas for generations and another part was of Arabic origin. When the Arab Muslims marched into Syria they were welcomed by the Syrians who saw the new rulers as saviors who freed them from the yoke of the Byzantines because the Byzantines tried by force to assimilate them into the Byzantine Church.“
    http://syrianorthodoxchurch.org/2010/03/a-short-overview-of-the-common-history/

    You guys only pay attention to the Greek/Melkite side of the story.

    That’s what post-WW2 protocols are supposed to stop - conquest by force. Now if you want the lands back, you have the addresses - drop out of international treaties and come take them.

    The Prophet (pbuh) dealt with Jews in the manner that they deserved; if they were friendly, they were treated as friendly and if they were hostile and sided with the enemy they were exiled or had their men killed. Par for the course. So we have rules for how to deal with minorities based on how they behave. And - as Imam Mawardi (ra) and others have made clear, the violation of the dhimmi covenant by one party does not violate for others.

    I do not, nor have I ever condoned the massacres of various innocent Christian minorities during the time you mention. There is no sanction for the killing of innocents in the sacred law and the Turks that did so will have to answer before God for their crimes.

    If you want to compare records with treatment of Jews, Mark Cohen already wrote an extensive study of it:
    https://press.princeton.edu/titles/8761.html

    European better treatment of Jews is a relatively recent thing...and then they went postal on them.

    Peace.
    , @Mikhail
    Before WW II, Zionism among Jews was nowhere near as popular as it became. Nazi actions greatly helped to popularize Zionism. Tacked onto that, was the highlighting of pre-WW II discriminatory actions against Jews.

    The Ottoman Turks treated the Jews well because at the time, they saw a talented group who didn't have such threatening national aspirations when compared to some others.

    When Israel was created, the bias against Jews in Arab countries increased. There was also some Arab bias against Jews before Israel's creation. This explains why Israeli Jews with roots to Arab countries, include some of the more hard line of elements.
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  122. @French Basque

    I am also much younger than you are, so I did not live the events you describe.
     
    My wife's mother was born in 1948 so in fact, I was a bit incorrect in stating that she was a "child" during the summer of 1962. She was a teenager and remembers vividly what happened to them. They had friends who disappeared overnight, never to be found again.

    As you know, I do not speak French. So my competence on this is limited.
     
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oran_massacre_of_1962
    If you are interested in these events, this wikipedia page is actually rather balanced, I find. It also explains why Colonel Bastien-Thiry tried to assassinate de Gaulle one year later (with a justification founded in St Thomas Aquinas and the notion of just tyrannicide).

    That said I get the impression that the Anglo-Americans were generally frustrated with de Gaulle,
     
    Especially the Americans I would say. They had favored Giraud instead (who unlike de Gaulle was a real general -- and a five-star one) but the cunning de Gaulle managed to out-manoeuver them, with the complicity of Churchill.

    Interesting that your parents revived the Basque language for your family. Do you have some kind of accent in Basque as a result?
     
    Quite the contrary in fact, I speak Basque with a very heavy French accent. My children don't have that accent however and are truly bi-lingual (as opposed to me, I cannot honestly claim that).

    What is a Frantziako?
     
    The Basque word to designate a non-Basque French person :) It is not derogatory by the way.

    If you ever find yourself in the American Midwest I will cook dinner for you and your wife with a proper French sauce.
     
    Thank you! I regularly travel to the USA for my work, but unfortunately this is almost always in the leftist Silicon Valley. I do not know much the Midwest except for Yellowstone National Park where I travelled in the mid-1990s just after my military service when I was in need of seeing wide open spaces and not seeing many people. I was not disappointed and enjoyed it a lot. By the way I am not anti-American at all, there are many aspects of traditional American civilization that I appreciate, such as the "courage, determination, and individualism" triptych. It is just too bad that your country, as mine, was taken over by the Js.

    So what’s your view of Mers-el-Kébir? My children did all their schooling in France, I don’t think they ever learned anything about it.

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    So what’s your view of Mers-el-Kébir
     
    I think that from the point of view of the British Admiralty it was probably the strategically sound decision to make. Of course there was a risk involved in that it could have backfired and pushed many Frenchmen in the German camp (and it did to some limited extent). However at that point the Brits had already their de Gaulle puppet firmly under control and their bet proved to be correct as it did not backfire on them.

    No, the ones I am blaming are not the British, absolutely not. They wanted to ensure that squadron of the Royale would not join forces with the Kriegsmarine. The one however that I blame chiefly for having accepted that is primarily de Gaulle, together with the Frenchmen who afterwards remained oblivious to be fact that none of the 2 sides was our friend in that war. This is were we can see that colonel de Gaulle was a total POS when compared to, say, General Franco.


    My children did all their schooling in France, I don’t think they ever learned anything about it.
     
    Good for you. They must be well-educated then :)
    All joking aside I am not surprised that they never heard anything about M-el-K, especially if they went to public schools. It does not fit well with the official Gaullist mythology.
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  123. songbird says:
    @German_reader
    I had the same idea in this thread a few months ago (comment 2)...surely a case of "great minds think alike":
    https://www.unz.com/imercer/jews-must-never-forget-trump-for-remembering-our-unforgettable-jerusalem/
    Yes, the Palestinian Christians are pretty much the only ones one can unreservedly feel sorry for in this whole mess.

    Yes, the Palestinian Christians are pretty much the only ones one can unreservedly feel sorry for in this whole mess.

    Not to mention, the Lebanese Christians, who basically had their country permanently destabilized by the refugees.

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    • Agree: German_reader
    • Replies: @Mikhail

    Not to mention, the Lebanese Christians, who basically had their country permanently destabilized by the refugees.
     
    Not so simple, as Lebanese Christians fought among themselves in scenarios that included groups of Christians and Muslims fighting other groups of Christians and Muslims.
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  124. Talha says:
    @for-the-record
    since they did eventually expel their Jewish minorities.

    I don't think they were actually expelled from any country (although I may be wrong on this), although their lives were in many cases made very difficult.

    This depends; mostly it was pressure but there were instances of expulsion as well.

    As I’ve stated; our idiot Arab nationalists played right into the hands of their idiot Jewish nationalists by treating centuries-old Jewish communities as fifth columnists in toto.

    Peace.

    Read More
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  125. @Talha
    We didn’t give Jews the keys to the castle but we had thriving communities where there was an understanding of hierarchy and responsibility. You guys are the ones that have this bi-polar approach; let’s let Jews into every nook and cranny of society and government...and then...oh crap, they’re taking over - let’s massacre and expel them!!!

    We aren’t perfect by any means and we are dealing with the situation as imperfect as it is, but Europeans preaching to us about the nonsense they created (and continue to exacerbate - you can stop selling them nuclear submarines any time) is ludicrous and deserves derision.

    Make no bones about it - you guys had a Jew problem - and you dumped it on us. And that kicked off our Jew problem. You don’t want to regard the history as relevant because the fault lies flat at your feet, you just want to preach at others about it.

    And that’s fine; that might work for other Europeans who also want to feel so smug and superior, but any Muslim who knows their history will regard it as utter nonsense.

    The Zionist movement predates the rise of National Socialism and the Holocaust, the Jews were pretty determined in reconquering Palestine, whether they were or were not being oppressed in Europe.

    The Palestine-only faction won out and they rejected all other proposals for a Jewish state somewhere else. They wanted to recreate Israel long before Hitler burst on the scene.

    It would have taken longer and the formation of Israel would have occurred in a different manner.

    However, you would have had a Jew problem in the end regardless of whether Hitler had decided to exterminate European Jewry or not, since the Jews do not recognise or acknowledge limits to their aims and ambitions.

    Fervent Zionist dreams of recreating Israel began decades before. It is only by your disingenuous framing of the Shoah as the event that led to the creation of Israel that your resentment of Europeans makes sense.

    Perhaps if you spent more time fixing your own problems and actually forming an actual anti-Israeli front rather than having Saudi ministers paling around with Israelis you might actually accomplish something.

    I think it is darkly amusing that the Shia forces of Iran and Hezbollah are serious about taking out Israel yet some Sunni countries would rather focus on teaming up with Israel and engage in sectarian war with the aforementioned forces. Other countries, like Turkey, are just full of empty air and more interested in carrying out their own little projects.

    I don’t give one whit whether you wipe Israel from the map, I don’t care about your semitic feud, and I would rather avoid sticking our hands into that hornets’ nest.

    Nevertheless your kind has a history of complaining about the past to avoid taking concrete actions in the present. If you are serious about fixing your problem then why don’t take the kind of initiative the Jihadists took in Yugoslavia or Afghanistan?

    It would certainly be much more productive that talking about how much it is our fault that the Jews broke your fragile national blossoms.

    Read More
    • Replies: @French Basque

    Nevertheless your kind has a history of complaining about the past to avoid taking concrete actions in the present.
     
    I could not have said it better. The official narrative of the independent (and failed) state of Algeria is a prime illustration thereof.

    Also your comment regarding the Shias reflects my thinking. Are you sure you are not me ? ;)
    , @Talha
    I have never stated that Muslims are guiltless in the problem. In fact there would never have been a Zionist problem if not for the disunity in the Muslim world; believing in the promises of the Brits and French. I fully believe this is a metaphysical result of us turning away from the guidance of the religion. We will continue to be humiliated by the Zionists until we fix our own problems.

    I just don’t appreciate the preachy attitude from Europeans and Westerners, especially since they aren’t helping the situation by literally taking out all of the rivals to Israel on their behalf.

    But I honestly expect nothing from non-Muslims to solve our issues, our Ummah has to deal with it.

    Peace.
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  126. @Hyperborean
    The Zionist movement predates the rise of National Socialism and the Holocaust, the Jews were pretty determined in reconquering Palestine, whether they were or were not being oppressed in Europe.

    The Palestine-only faction won out and they rejected all other proposals for a Jewish state somewhere else. They wanted to recreate Israel long before Hitler burst on the scene.

    It would have taken longer and the formation of Israel would have occurred in a different manner.

    However, you would have had a Jew problem in the end regardless of whether Hitler had decided to exterminate European Jewry or not, since the Jews do not recognise or acknowledge limits to their aims and ambitions.

    Fervent Zionist dreams of recreating Israel began decades before. It is only by your disingenuous framing of the Shoah as the event that led to the creation of Israel that your resentment of Europeans makes sense.

    Perhaps if you spent more time fixing your own problems and actually forming an actual anti-Israeli front rather than having Saudi ministers paling around with Israelis you might actually accomplish something.

    I think it is darkly amusing that the Shia forces of Iran and Hezbollah are serious about taking out Israel yet some Sunni countries would rather focus on teaming up with Israel and engage in sectarian war with the aforementioned forces. Other countries, like Turkey, are just full of empty air and more interested in carrying out their own little projects.

    I don't give one whit whether you wipe Israel from the map, I don't care about your semitic feud, and I would rather avoid sticking our hands into that hornets' nest.

    Nevertheless your kind has a history of complaining about the past to avoid taking concrete actions in the present. If you are serious about fixing your problem then why don't take the kind of initiative the Jihadists took in Yugoslavia or Afghanistan?

    It would certainly be much more productive that talking about how much it is our fault that the Jews broke your fragile national blossoms.

    Nevertheless your kind has a history of complaining about the past to avoid taking concrete actions in the present.

    I could not have said it better. The official narrative of the independent (and failed) state of Algeria is a prime illustration thereof.

    Also your comment regarding the Shias reflects my thinking. Are you sure you are not me ? ;)

    Read More
    • Replies: @Hyperborean
    'Are you sure you are not me?'

    Ah no, unfortunately. Despite my like for the country and culture, I am not French, though I would like to improve my subpar French speaking abilities.

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  127. @French Basque
    Major premise  [Quran 2-191]:

    And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter... and fight them until fitnah is no more, and religion is for Allah
     

    Minor premise [Talha #166 regarding his alleged rejection of violence]:


    I completely agree here, and have always condemned actions that are not sanctioned by sacred law.

     

    Ergo:
    Talha is a practitioner of taqîya.

    Plus we know you guys. We've lived with you for generations.

    Talha #166 regarding his alleged rejection of violence

    I don’t think Talha has ever claimed to reject violence, he just wants it regulated (and thereby limited) by Islamic law. He doesn’t pretend to be a turn-the-other-cheek pacifist.
    Personally I find his comments quite interesting…and frequently disturbing since they indicate the yawning gulf between the world view of even a probably relatively moderate, if conservative, pious Muslim and the world view of most Westerners. It’s the kind of thing liberals should be forced to read imo, maybe it would help them understand that more Islam in western societies is likely to lead to potentially quite severe conflict, even if one recognizes that on a personal level many Muslims aren’t especially vicious people (Talha certainly doesn’t strike me as especially violence-prone from his internet persona).

    Read More
    • Replies: @Hyperborean
    Some of the old (old to me at least) Muslims I have encountered in Europe can be quite decent, though of course they shouldn't be here in large numbers.

    I think the problem is with the young ones who will form the coming generation who are either aggressive guys coming from the Middle East or Africa recently or the children who grew up in Europe who tend to form this toxic mixture of either hypocritical gangster Islam or rabid ultra-pozzed nominal Muslim SJWdom. I also sometimes see hardcore Salafists. They tend to be a minority but their visual appearance makes them stick out quite a bit.
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  128. @French Basque

    Nevertheless your kind has a history of complaining about the past to avoid taking concrete actions in the present.
     
    I could not have said it better. The official narrative of the independent (and failed) state of Algeria is a prime illustration thereof.

    Also your comment regarding the Shias reflects my thinking. Are you sure you are not me ? ;)

    ‘Are you sure you are not me?’

    Ah no, unfortunately. Despite my like for the country and culture, I am not French, though I would like to improve my subpar French speaking abilities.

    Read More
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  129. Talha says:
    @songbird
    That is rich.

    But here's the thing: Zionism existed before WW2, and Jews did not have any less of a persecution complex, or less of a desire to settle Israel. They were settling it when it was part of the Ottoman empire. They had the Turks wrapped around their little finger, even when they were massacring the Armenians and sharpening their knives in front of the Greeks.

    There's also a lot of hypocrisy fundamental in your indignation. Those "occupied Muslim lands" were really Christian lands occupied by Muslims. Similarly, Europe is occupied by more Muslims than there are Jews in Israel. We also took in many of your Jews too who were fleeing the threat of death. Islam has a long history of persecuting other religions. It began with Muhammad who himself put Jews to the sword. Jews who were, of course, living in Arabia before Islam came into being, and I am pretty sure there are none there now. Maybe, Arabia should be settled with Jews to make up for that violent past.

    All lands are occupied by someone in the past. Christians are likewise guilty of this:

    https://christianhistoryinstitute.org/magazine/article/interview-converting-by-the-sword

    Muslims were simply way better at it. And those populations converted over time to Islam themselves. And some of those Christians were quite happy we kicked out the Byzantines:
    “The persecution of the Syrian Church by the Byzantine Empire did not end until the appearance of Islam. Only through the campaigns of Islam in the first half of the 7th century was it possible to free the East from the Byzantines and the Persians. This happened with the help of the members of the Syrian Church; the original inhabitants of Syria of whom one part was of Aramaic origin who inhabited these areas for generations and another part was of Arabic origin. When the Arab Muslims marched into Syria they were welcomed by the Syrians who saw the new rulers as saviors who freed them from the yoke of the Byzantines because the Byzantines tried by force to assimilate them into the Byzantine Church.“

    http://syrianorthodoxchurch.org/2010/03/a-short-overview-of-the-common-history/

    You guys only pay attention to the Greek/Melkite side of the story.

    That’s what post-WW2 protocols are supposed to stop – conquest by force. Now if you want the lands back, you have the addresses – drop out of international treaties and come take them.

    The Prophet (pbuh) dealt with Jews in the manner that they deserved; if they were friendly, they were treated as friendly and if they were hostile and sided with the enemy they were exiled or had their men killed. Par for the course. So we have rules for how to deal with minorities based on how they behave. And – as Imam Mawardi (ra) and others have made clear, the violation of the dhimmi covenant by one party does not violate for others.

    I do not, nor have I ever condoned the massacres of various innocent Christian minorities during the time you mention. There is no sanction for the killing of innocents in the sacred law and the Turks that did so will have to answer before God for their crimes.

    If you want to compare records with treatment of Jews, Mark Cohen already wrote an extensive study of it:

    https://press.princeton.edu/titles/8761.html

    European better treatment of Jews is a relatively recent thing…and then they went postal on them.

    Peace.

    Read More
    • Replies: @for-the-record
    If you want to compare records with treatment of Jews, Mark Cohen already wrote an extensive study of it.

    Thanks, I look forward to reading this.
    , @Bliss

    There is no sanction for the killing of innocents in the sacred law
     
    Mohammad himself killed numerous innocents. And your “sacred law” is based largely on his behavior. Explain that away.

    Btw, it is only fair to point out that Moses killed more innocents (including children) than Mohammad. At least Mohammad is not known to have killed babies and little children. For example in the wholesale beheadings of the males of the Jewish tribe of Banu Qurayza in Medina only the (innocent) boys who had begun to sprout pubic hair were killed in the bloodbath.
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  130. @for-the-record
    So what's your view of Mers-el-Kébir? My children did all their schooling in France, I don't think they ever learned anything about it.

    So what’s your view of Mers-el-Kébir

    I think that from the point of view of the British Admiralty it was probably the strategically sound decision to make. Of course there was a risk involved in that it could have backfired and pushed many Frenchmen in the German camp (and it did to some limited extent). However at that point the Brits had already their de Gaulle puppet firmly under control and their bet proved to be correct as it did not backfire on them.

    No, the ones I am blaming are not the British, absolutely not. They wanted to ensure that squadron of the Royale would not join forces with the Kriegsmarine. The one however that I blame chiefly for having accepted that is primarily de Gaulle, together with the Frenchmen who afterwards remained oblivious to be fact that none of the 2 sides was our friend in that war. This is were we can see that colonel de Gaulle was a total POS when compared to, say, General Franco.

    My children did all their schooling in France, I don’t think they ever learned anything about it.

    Good for you. They must be well-educated then :)
    All joking aside I am not surprised that they never heard anything about M-el-K, especially if they went to public schools. It does not fit well with the official Gaullist mythology.

    Read More
    • Replies: @for-the-record
    They must be well-educated then :)

    Both got mention très bien. On more than one occasion we (parents) were told by their schools that they were progressing well despite their "handicap" (us, being non-native French speakers).

    I think you are perhaps being a bit overly charitable with respect to Perfidious Albion -- French losses after all were more than half of those at Pearl Harbor. In particular, the option of sailing the fleet to a "safe" destination (French West Indies) was never fully explored.
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  131. Talha says:
    @Hyperborean
    The Zionist movement predates the rise of National Socialism and the Holocaust, the Jews were pretty determined in reconquering Palestine, whether they were or were not being oppressed in Europe.

    The Palestine-only faction won out and they rejected all other proposals for a Jewish state somewhere else. They wanted to recreate Israel long before Hitler burst on the scene.

    It would have taken longer and the formation of Israel would have occurred in a different manner.

    However, you would have had a Jew problem in the end regardless of whether Hitler had decided to exterminate European Jewry or not, since the Jews do not recognise or acknowledge limits to their aims and ambitions.

    Fervent Zionist dreams of recreating Israel began decades before. It is only by your disingenuous framing of the Shoah as the event that led to the creation of Israel that your resentment of Europeans makes sense.

    Perhaps if you spent more time fixing your own problems and actually forming an actual anti-Israeli front rather than having Saudi ministers paling around with Israelis you might actually accomplish something.

    I think it is darkly amusing that the Shia forces of Iran and Hezbollah are serious about taking out Israel yet some Sunni countries would rather focus on teaming up with Israel and engage in sectarian war with the aforementioned forces. Other countries, like Turkey, are just full of empty air and more interested in carrying out their own little projects.

    I don't give one whit whether you wipe Israel from the map, I don't care about your semitic feud, and I would rather avoid sticking our hands into that hornets' nest.

    Nevertheless your kind has a history of complaining about the past to avoid taking concrete actions in the present. If you are serious about fixing your problem then why don't take the kind of initiative the Jihadists took in Yugoslavia or Afghanistan?

    It would certainly be much more productive that talking about how much it is our fault that the Jews broke your fragile national blossoms.

    I have never stated that Muslims are guiltless in the problem. In fact there would never have been a Zionist problem if not for the disunity in the Muslim world; believing in the promises of the Brits and French. I fully believe this is a metaphysical result of us turning away from the guidance of the religion. We will continue to be humiliated by the Zionists until we fix our own problems.

    I just don’t appreciate the preachy attitude from Europeans and Westerners, especially since they aren’t helping the situation by literally taking out all of the rivals to Israel on their behalf.

    But I honestly expect nothing from non-Muslims to solve our issues, our Ummah has to deal with it.

    Peace.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Hyperborean
    That is a fair point. I too dislike this 'preachy attitude' as you call it.

    I don't see why we have to care so much about every single squabble in foreign lands. If it concerns us then it concerns us, if it doesn't then there is no point getting so worked up about it.

    People in other countries generally don't spend a lot of time taking sides about, say, African tribal conflicts even though these can be quite bloody - for good reason.

    However I think there is a strange lack among Sunnis to take on Israel, even though they hate her. Why aren't Sunnis flocking to create Sunni versions of Hezbollah?

    Thousands of foreign Muslims were willing to take on the full might of the USSR in Afghanistan and become martyrs. Yet it seems mainly Shia who are confronting Israel. Even ISIS seemed to avoid Israel. Why is this?
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  132. @German_reader

    Talha #166 regarding his alleged rejection of violence
     
    I don't think Talha has ever claimed to reject violence, he just wants it regulated (and thereby limited) by Islamic law. He doesn't pretend to be a turn-the-other-cheek pacifist.
    Personally I find his comments quite interesting...and frequently disturbing since they indicate the yawning gulf between the world view of even a probably relatively moderate, if conservative, pious Muslim and the world view of most Westerners. It's the kind of thing liberals should be forced to read imo, maybe it would help them understand that more Islam in western societies is likely to lead to potentially quite severe conflict, even if one recognizes that on a personal level many Muslims aren't especially vicious people (Talha certainly doesn't strike me as especially violence-prone from his internet persona).

    Some of the old (old to me at least) Muslims I have encountered in Europe can be quite decent, though of course they shouldn’t be here in large numbers.

    I think the problem is with the young ones who will form the coming generation who are either aggressive guys coming from the Middle East or Africa recently or the children who grew up in Europe who tend to form this toxic mixture of either hypocritical gangster Islam or rabid ultra-pozzed nominal Muslim SJWdom. I also sometimes see hardcore Salafists. They tend to be a minority but their visual appearance makes them stick out quite a bit.

    Read More
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  133. @Talha
    I have never stated that Muslims are guiltless in the problem. In fact there would never have been a Zionist problem if not for the disunity in the Muslim world; believing in the promises of the Brits and French. I fully believe this is a metaphysical result of us turning away from the guidance of the religion. We will continue to be humiliated by the Zionists until we fix our own problems.

    I just don’t appreciate the preachy attitude from Europeans and Westerners, especially since they aren’t helping the situation by literally taking out all of the rivals to Israel on their behalf.

    But I honestly expect nothing from non-Muslims to solve our issues, our Ummah has to deal with it.

    Peace.

    That is a fair point. I too dislike this ‘preachy attitude’ as you call it.

    I don’t see why we have to care so much about every single squabble in foreign lands. If it concerns us then it concerns us, if it doesn’t then there is no point getting so worked up about it.

    People in other countries generally don’t spend a lot of time taking sides about, say, African tribal conflicts even though these can be quite bloody – for good reason.

    However I think there is a strange lack among Sunnis to take on Israel, even though they hate her. Why aren’t Sunnis flocking to create Sunni versions of Hezbollah?

    Thousands of foreign Muslims were willing to take on the full might of the USSR in Afghanistan and become martyrs. Yet it seems mainly Shia who are confronting Israel. Even ISIS seemed to avoid Israel. Why is this?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha

    Why aren’t Sunnis flocking to create Sunni versions of Hezbollah?
     
    We have one, it's called Hamas - it's simply not as good.

    You have to realize what Hezbollah is; it is a South Lebanese Shiah militia with a defensive posture. They would get shredded by the IDF (like most other Muslim militias) if they went on the offensive. But if Israel comes into their territory, they will make the IDF pay dearly for every inch of land that they take.

    If Israel was to spill out of its borders and, say, march into the Sinai, then you would see thousands of Sunni volunteers going to help out.

    As I stated before; Muslims are not in a position, nor in a mood to go on any offensives (any more than the British, Spanish and French want to restore their former empires) - the international non-aggression protocols have been accepted by our major scholars and institutions as a positive framework. I actually don't mind Israel so much within its current borders; my only beef is Gaza, WB and Jerusalem (which is what most Muslims have a problem with).

    Daesh avoids Israel because it's on their side. Remember, Israel has a long history of playing Muslim sides against each other; the occupation of Lebanon is a great study on this subject. Which again comes back to the issue of Muslim disunity.


    toxic mixture of either hypocritical gangster Islam or rabid ultra-pozzed nominal Muslim SJWdom
     
    Excellent assessment! I too reject these paradigms and find them alarming and I'm doing what I can within my community to help make sure this doesn't spread.

    Peace.

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  134. @Talha
    All lands are occupied by someone in the past. Christians are likewise guilty of this:
    https://christianhistoryinstitute.org/magazine/article/interview-converting-by-the-sword

    Muslims were simply way better at it. And those populations converted over time to Islam themselves. And some of those Christians were quite happy we kicked out the Byzantines:
    “The persecution of the Syrian Church by the Byzantine Empire did not end until the appearance of Islam. Only through the campaigns of Islam in the first half of the 7th century was it possible to free the East from the Byzantines and the Persians. This happened with the help of the members of the Syrian Church; the original inhabitants of Syria of whom one part was of Aramaic origin who inhabited these areas for generations and another part was of Arabic origin. When the Arab Muslims marched into Syria they were welcomed by the Syrians who saw the new rulers as saviors who freed them from the yoke of the Byzantines because the Byzantines tried by force to assimilate them into the Byzantine Church.“
    http://syrianorthodoxchurch.org/2010/03/a-short-overview-of-the-common-history/

    You guys only pay attention to the Greek/Melkite side of the story.

    That’s what post-WW2 protocols are supposed to stop - conquest by force. Now if you want the lands back, you have the addresses - drop out of international treaties and come take them.

    The Prophet (pbuh) dealt with Jews in the manner that they deserved; if they were friendly, they were treated as friendly and if they were hostile and sided with the enemy they were exiled or had their men killed. Par for the course. So we have rules for how to deal with minorities based on how they behave. And - as Imam Mawardi (ra) and others have made clear, the violation of the dhimmi covenant by one party does not violate for others.

    I do not, nor have I ever condoned the massacres of various innocent Christian minorities during the time you mention. There is no sanction for the killing of innocents in the sacred law and the Turks that did so will have to answer before God for their crimes.

    If you want to compare records with treatment of Jews, Mark Cohen already wrote an extensive study of it:
    https://press.princeton.edu/titles/8761.html

    European better treatment of Jews is a relatively recent thing...and then they went postal on them.

    Peace.

    If you want to compare records with treatment of Jews, Mark Cohen already wrote an extensive study of it.

    Thanks, I look forward to reading this.

    Read More
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  135. Talha says:
    @Hyperborean
    That is a fair point. I too dislike this 'preachy attitude' as you call it.

    I don't see why we have to care so much about every single squabble in foreign lands. If it concerns us then it concerns us, if it doesn't then there is no point getting so worked up about it.

    People in other countries generally don't spend a lot of time taking sides about, say, African tribal conflicts even though these can be quite bloody - for good reason.

    However I think there is a strange lack among Sunnis to take on Israel, even though they hate her. Why aren't Sunnis flocking to create Sunni versions of Hezbollah?

    Thousands of foreign Muslims were willing to take on the full might of the USSR in Afghanistan and become martyrs. Yet it seems mainly Shia who are confronting Israel. Even ISIS seemed to avoid Israel. Why is this?

    Why aren’t Sunnis flocking to create Sunni versions of Hezbollah?

    We have one, it’s called Hamas – it’s simply not as good.

    You have to realize what Hezbollah is; it is a South Lebanese Shiah militia with a defensive posture. They would get shredded by the IDF (like most other Muslim militias) if they went on the offensive. But if Israel comes into their territory, they will make the IDF pay dearly for every inch of land that they take.

    If Israel was to spill out of its borders and, say, march into the Sinai, then you would see thousands of Sunni volunteers going to help out.

    As I stated before; Muslims are not in a position, nor in a mood to go on any offensives (any more than the British, Spanish and French want to restore their former empires) – the international non-aggression protocols have been accepted by our major scholars and institutions as a positive framework. I actually don’t mind Israel so much within its current borders; my only beef is Gaza, WB and Jerusalem (which is what most Muslims have a problem with).

    Daesh avoids Israel because it’s on their side. Remember, Israel has a long history of playing Muslim sides against each other; the occupation of Lebanon is a great study on this subject. Which again comes back to the issue of Muslim disunity.

    toxic mixture of either hypocritical gangster Islam or rabid ultra-pozzed nominal Muslim SJWdom

    Excellent assessment! I too reject these paradigms and find them alarming and I’m doing what I can within my community to help make sure this doesn’t spread.

    Peace.

    Read More
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  136. Dmitry says:
    @German_reader
    I wonder what's Putin's reasoning behind this decision...does he want the Iranians to get out of Syria because he thinks that would help in avoiding a regional war?

    The S-300 package to Syria costs $900 million, according to newspaper reports.

    Either Syria buys it (with Iranian funding) – which was discussed a few years ago, or it is given for free (which was discussed last week).

    The complex will likely be destroyed by Israel after it is given. If Syria had paid for it – this is no problem for the Kremlin. But if it was given for free, then the destruction of expensive free equipment will require a response from Russia (probably some economic sanction).

    In other words, giving it for free, is an increase in defense obligations, as well as a lot of money.

    If Syria (with Iranian backing) would pay for it, they would have been sold to Syria years ago.

    Read More
    • Agree: melanf
    • Replies: @German_reader

    The complex will likely be destroyed by Israel after it is given
     
    If it's that easy to destroy, what would be the point in Syria getting it?
    I can see though why Russia just doesn't want to give it away...$900 million (wow) isn't exactly cheap.
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  137. @French Basque

    So what’s your view of Mers-el-Kébir
     
    I think that from the point of view of the British Admiralty it was probably the strategically sound decision to make. Of course there was a risk involved in that it could have backfired and pushed many Frenchmen in the German camp (and it did to some limited extent). However at that point the Brits had already their de Gaulle puppet firmly under control and their bet proved to be correct as it did not backfire on them.

    No, the ones I am blaming are not the British, absolutely not. They wanted to ensure that squadron of the Royale would not join forces with the Kriegsmarine. The one however that I blame chiefly for having accepted that is primarily de Gaulle, together with the Frenchmen who afterwards remained oblivious to be fact that none of the 2 sides was our friend in that war. This is were we can see that colonel de Gaulle was a total POS when compared to, say, General Franco.


    My children did all their schooling in France, I don’t think they ever learned anything about it.
     
    Good for you. They must be well-educated then :)
    All joking aside I am not surprised that they never heard anything about M-el-K, especially if they went to public schools. It does not fit well with the official Gaullist mythology.

    They must be well-educated then :)

    Both got mention très bien. On more than one occasion we (parents) were told by their schools that they were progressing well despite their “handicap” (us, being non-native French speakers).

    I think you are perhaps being a bit overly charitable with respect to Perfidious Albion — French losses after all were more than half of those at Pearl Harbor. In particular, the option of sailing the fleet to a “safe” destination (French West Indies) was never fully explored.

    Read More
    • Replies: @DFH

    I think you are perhaps being a bit overly charitable with respect to Perfidious Albion — French losses after all were more than half of those at Pearl Harbor. In particular, the option of sailing the fleet to a “safe” destination (French West Indies) was never fully explored.
     
    Obviously the British should have magnanimously allowed the risk of their enemies gaining one of the world's largest fleet to use in their planned invasion instead.
    , @French Basque
    The mention très bien is indeed impressive, especially for children with this "handicap"! I am not surprised at all that you were told such things.

    What is also very interesting here is that your children, despite this "handicap", were both able to get such grades.

    On the other hand, the co-religionnaries of Talha, despite the fact that most of them are now second or third-generation "French" (on paper of course), and despite the many hundreds of millions of € that have been dumped in remediation courses for them, despite also all the free passes and special treatments they get from the multi-culti types infesting all echelons of the Éducation Nationale, are still miserably failing academically and drag the country's PISA scores lower every 3 years. No wonder the smartest amongst them become "scholars" of the Quran rather than of theoretical physics.
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  138. Dmitry says:
    @Felix Keverich
    I have to say the optics of Netanyahoo's visit to Moscow was just embarrassing. Syria is not a "training ground", it's Russia's ally (to the extent that Russia has any allies at all): we have all sorts of bilateral agreements, we invested a lot of money in Syria, Syria even recognised Crimea as a part of Russia.

    Attacks on allies should not be tolerated. At the very least we must impose sanctions on Israel: this economic relationship benefits the Jews far more than it benefits Russians.

    Attacks on allies should not be tolerated. At the very least we must impose sanctions on Israel: this economic relationship benefits the Jews far more than it benefits Russians.

    I think economic relationship with Israel is mainly

    1. Russia is number one or two seller of oil to Israel (along with Azerbaijan).

    2. Israel receives hundreds of thousands of tourists from Russia each year.

    3. Russia imports some agricultural products.

    Oil is substitutable (unlike gas which needs pipelines).

    While the tourism is more possible instrument of foreign policy (like what happened with Turkey).

    Read More
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  139. Talha says:
    @French Basque
    Major premise  [Quran 2-191]:

    And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter... and fight them until fitnah is no more, and religion is for Allah
     

    Minor premise [Talha #166 regarding his alleged rejection of violence]:


    I completely agree here, and have always condemned actions that are not sanctioned by sacred law.

     

    Ergo:
    Talha is a practitioner of taqîya.

    Plus we know you guys. We've lived with you for generations.

    Look, you seem new here…so welcome.

    A little intro on my part; I’m a traditional Muslim, Sunni Orthodox following the Hanafi school (mostly Maturidi in theological precepts) and a student of the Naqshbandi Sufi Order.

    I’ve been studying Shariah for over a decade under qualified scholars of the Hanafi school. Some of the people I have taken classes with have learned under the top scholars of the Muslim world.

    If you have to look up the term “Hanafi”, you are trying to punch way, way above your level.

    Quoting random verses and hadith may get you somewhere with the ignorant or frat boys, but we know our verses, we know our religion. It has been expounded upon by scholars for centuries; men who devoted their entire lives to figuring it out. Let me be clear, neither you nor I (nor anyone here) is qualified to derive any ruling or precept from a verse of the Qur’an. If you think you are, that’s your problem, not ours.

    If your contention is that Muslims are commanded to kill non-Muslims everywhere we come across them; then this is juvenile nonsense. None of our scholars have ever stated this, nor have any serious non-Muslim academic researchers of Islam. If you want to read a fairly good book about the subject of jihad, then I suggest this one by Prof. Bonner:

    https://press.princeton.edu/titles/8280.html

    I would even recommend this one by Prof. Cook:

    https://www.ucpress.edu/book.php?isbn=9780520287327

    Both are by non-Muslims but look at the concept from an academic perspective.

    Up your game – do some serious research (please don’t waste my time with quotes from Zionist fanboy websites like JihadWatch) and then come back with what the scholars of our normative tradition say and we can have an intelligent conversation about Islamic doctrine.

    Otherwise, stick to saying I’m a taqiyyah Muzzie and hope other people here take you seriously.

    Read More
    • Replies: @French Basque

    Some of the people I have taken classes with have learned under the top scholars of the Muslim world.
     
    Yeah. I am really impressed by the "scholars" of the muslim world, being mesmerized by their manifold contributions to advancement of humanity in many areas ranging from medicine to space exploration, chip design or renewable energies. Not to mention their amazing track record in terms of Nobel Prizes, Kyoto Prizes, or Fields Medals.

    Let me be clear, neither you nor I (nor anyone here) is qualified to derive any ruling or precept from a verse of the Qur’an.
     
    In all honesty, I don't really care much about learning anything more than I already know, regarding this collection of idiotic texts written by (and for) low-IQ camel herders. It is sufficient to me to observe the net result for my country of the massive intake of Moslems over the past 4 decades, specifically, turning every area where they settle en masse invariably into repulsive shitholes. In all fairness, there are a couple of metrics for which muslim immigration always brings unqualified increases: rape and food poisoning.

    I do indeed deeply dislike your religion and the sub-civilization it has engendered. However I do not wish you any harm at a personal level. I would just want that we all agree to live separately and that you stop coming to our countries as a result of the dismal failures of yours.

    , @Bliss

    I’m a traditional Muslim.......and a student of the Naqshbandi Sufi Order.
     
    A traditional muslim believes in the finality of the Quran and the Last Prophet (Mohammad). Joining a Sufi order is proof that you don’t. None of the Sufi orders were founded by Mohammad so how the hell can you call yourself a “traditional muslim”? You may fool most of the people here but you aren’t fooling the salafis. They know you for the heretics you are and they know what they are commanded to do to you when they have the power:

    If anyone leaves the religion, kill him (Mohammad, the Last Messenger of Allah)
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  140. Dmitry says:
    @Felix Keverich

    How do you suggest Russia retaliate against Israel?
     
    Not inviting Netanyahoo would be a start. If you attack our friends and allies, you should not be treated as a guest of honor at our "sacred" annual ritual.

    Step two: ramp up anti-Israel propaganda on state TV. The Jews are highly sensitive to this stuff. For now domestic propaganda mostly ignores Israel, when they do report on Israel, they cover it positively.

    Ending direct wealth transfers to Israel. Under Putin's initiative, Russia pays pensions to Soviet Jews, who emigrated to Israel - a bizarre arrangement for all sorts of reasons.

    Russia's economic relationship with Israel in general is very one-sided and mostly serves as a conduit for Jews to extract wealth from Russia. The government should make it harder for the Israeli citizens to do business in Russia, ideally pressuring them to sell their businesses and get out. This is not a retaliation measure per se, just sound economic nationalism, because having Jewish businesses in Russia is bad for Russians.

    Under Putin’s initiative, Russia pays pensions to Soviet Jews, who emigrated to Israel – a bizarre arrangement for all sorts of reasons.

    The fact Putin started to do this, must be another confusing thing for people like Saker who say Putin is anti-Israel.

    This said, it seems a minimum social pension – of around $80 a month.

    They are still giving the pension to people who did not accumulate enough pension points to get the pension if they were in Russia, and based on how many years they were in Israel.

    Read More
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  141. DFH says:
    @for-the-record
    They must be well-educated then :)

    Both got mention très bien. On more than one occasion we (parents) were told by their schools that they were progressing well despite their "handicap" (us, being non-native French speakers).

    I think you are perhaps being a bit overly charitable with respect to Perfidious Albion -- French losses after all were more than half of those at Pearl Harbor. In particular, the option of sailing the fleet to a "safe" destination (French West Indies) was never fully explored.

    I think you are perhaps being a bit overly charitable with respect to Perfidious Albion — French losses after all were more than half of those at Pearl Harbor. In particular, the option of sailing the fleet to a “safe” destination (French West Indies) was never fully explored.

    Obviously the British should have magnanimously allowed the risk of their enemies gaining one of the world’s largest fleet to use in their planned invasion instead.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anon
    National necessity-- laughed at when Prussians claim it, solemnly accepted when Brits do.
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  142. @Dmitry
    The S-300 package to Syria costs $900 million, according to newspaper reports.

    Either Syria buys it (with Iranian funding) - which was discussed a few years ago, or it is given for free (which was discussed last week).

    The complex will likely be destroyed by Israel after it is given. If Syria had paid for it - this is no problem for the Kremlin. But if it was given for free, then the destruction of expensive free equipment will require a response from Russia (probably some economic sanction).

    In other words, giving it for free, is an increase in defense obligations, as well as a lot of money.

    If Syria (with Iranian backing) would pay for it, they would have been sold to Syria years ago.

    The complex will likely be destroyed by Israel after it is given

    If it’s that easy to destroy, what would be the point in Syria getting it?
    I can see though why Russia just doesn’t want to give it away…$900 million (wow) isn’t exactly cheap.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Dmitry
    Within the air defense network of a developed and well organized country, it would not be easy to destroy. If it is with the Germans, it would not be easy to destroy.

    The question I would have - is when you give it to a country which does not have technological, or necessarily tactical and organizational, equality? There might be a weak link in the chain. And equipment is only as strong as the weak link in the chain.

    We had this conversation two weeks ago with Reinor Tor. And already since that last discussion about this subject, it happened that the new Pantsir-S1 was destroyed for a Twitter video that was posted on the IDF Twitter account (a $15 million Twitter video).

    RT has commissioned articles to explain to the world that a vulnerable complex can be destroyed. According to the last sentence, Syria had not disguised it or camouflaged it.

    https://www.rt.com/news/426520-syria-israel-pantsir-russia/

    Whatever actually happened (whether Israel uses electronic warfare to disable it, or that the Syrian just leave it undefended and turned off, or it runs out of ammunition) - since the last discussion, my point of view seems now more likely than before.
    , @LondonBob
    It would presumably be an old system that was no longer needed as the Russian unit would have been given the S400. So cost could also be seen as zero.
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  143. Talha says:
    @German_reader

    You don’t want to regard the history as relevant because the fault lies flat at your feet, you just want to preach at others about it.
     
    Well yes, but what's your point? True, Europeans dumped their "Jewish problem" on Palestine, and without the genocide of Jews by Germans it probably wouldn't have happened like that. On a normative level, it probably shouldn't have happened like that, it certainly wasn't just. But it did happen and Israel exists now. And if you think that Israel should be dissolved and its Jews leave for Europe or the US, that looks rather unlikely.

    Well yes, but what’s your point?

    Well, you actually made my point with the rest of your statement. Again – it was much more about the preachy attitude.

    And if you think that Israel should be dissolved and its Jews leave for Europe or the US

    So we can deal with the problem in a century or two after you guys go postal on them again? No thanks!

    No, we’ll clean up the mess. A lot of it has to do with the reformation of Muslim attitudes back to normative religious doctrine and removal of the nonsense that Arab nationalism brought with it. I personally don’t see Israel lasting that far into the future in its current form – maybe another century, maybe a little more (highly depends on US dominance on the world stage also). Jews will have to decide (along with Muslims of the area) – do we want to keep on this path or go back to how it was where Jews could settle and have communities across the Muslim world? Do Jews want their little bunker or do they want freedom of movement? They’ll have to stop encouraging the US to destroy all the ME around them and the Muslims will have to also show that Jews will have protection in the places they want to settle. This may be an easier sell for Middle Eastern Jews, but harder for the European Jews whose insane pipe-dream this whole thing was. Will it be the same as what they have currently in Europe? No – Europe is not the ME, but it can be peaceful and even pleasant.

    I don’t mind (and actually think it a good thing) Israel proper being absorbed into a wider economic-political cooperative (kind of like the EU) across the Middle East where they have a level of semi-autonomy in certain areas. We’ve done the millet thing before for centuries so this is nothing new for us, this would only be modified to come up to modern standards.

    Peace.

    Read More
    • Replies: @German_reader

    Again – it was much more about the preachy attitude.
     
    I'm not sure though where you see that preachy attitude, imo the Europeans at least have tried to some extent to be even-handed, recognizing a certain responsibility for Israel's situation, given the background of European antisemitism, but also trying to support the Palestinians and building lots of infrastructure for them (which Israel unfortunately then destroyed to a large extent). If anything, the Europeans are usually accused of being preachy towards Israel.
    The US has of course become grotesquely one-sided in recent years.
    , @songbird

    I don’t mind (and actually think it a good thing) Israel proper being absorbed into a wider economic-political cooperative (kind of like the EU) across the Middle East where they have a level of semi-autonomy in certain areas.
     
    Like everyone, I suppose, I don't know how to solve the ME issue. Obviously, peace would involve some sort of cooperation or normalized trade. Of course, I am not an Israeli, but I think a reasonable minimum would be Jews keeping their own currency, or else some inflation-proof techno-currency taken completely out of the hands of government. Also, all charity being private - not governmental. Plus freedom of association and no affirmative action.

    A shared currency or redistribution on the EU model is absolutely an unworkable model, IMO. It is not working in the US or in the EU, and it is reasonable to think that it may one day lead to war in either location.

    Maybe what is needed in the ME is the ancient practice of exchanging hostages.
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  144. @Talha

    Well yes, but what’s your point?
     
    Well, you actually made my point with the rest of your statement. Again - it was much more about the preachy attitude.

    And if you think that Israel should be dissolved and its Jews leave for Europe or the US
     
    So we can deal with the problem in a century or two after you guys go postal on them again? No thanks!

    No, we'll clean up the mess. A lot of it has to do with the reformation of Muslim attitudes back to normative religious doctrine and removal of the nonsense that Arab nationalism brought with it. I personally don't see Israel lasting that far into the future in its current form - maybe another century, maybe a little more (highly depends on US dominance on the world stage also). Jews will have to decide (along with Muslims of the area) - do we want to keep on this path or go back to how it was where Jews could settle and have communities across the Muslim world? Do Jews want their little bunker or do they want freedom of movement? They'll have to stop encouraging the US to destroy all the ME around them and the Muslims will have to also show that Jews will have protection in the places they want to settle. This may be an easier sell for Middle Eastern Jews, but harder for the European Jews whose insane pipe-dream this whole thing was. Will it be the same as what they have currently in Europe? No - Europe is not the ME, but it can be peaceful and even pleasant.

    I don't mind (and actually think it a good thing) Israel proper being absorbed into a wider economic-political cooperative (kind of like the EU) across the Middle East where they have a level of semi-autonomy in certain areas. We've done the millet thing before for centuries so this is nothing new for us, this would only be modified to come up to modern standards.

    Peace.

    Again – it was much more about the preachy attitude.

    I’m not sure though where you see that preachy attitude, imo the Europeans at least have tried to some extent to be even-handed, recognizing a certain responsibility for Israel’s situation, given the background of European antisemitism, but also trying to support the Palestinians and building lots of infrastructure for them (which Israel unfortunately then destroyed to a large extent). If anything, the Europeans are usually accused of being preachy towards Israel.
    The US has of course become grotesquely one-sided in recent years.

    Read More
    • Agree: utu
    • Replies: @Talha
    I wasn’t talking about general European attitudes, I was talking about the European attitude you reflected in your specific post.

    I agree that, in general, it is the cowboys in the US that are backing Israel to the hilt and that there would be a much better situation on the ground if it was just the Europeans involved.

    Peace.
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  145. @Talha
    Look, you seem new here...so welcome.

    A little intro on my part; I'm a traditional Muslim, Sunni Orthodox following the Hanafi school (mostly Maturidi in theological precepts) and a student of the Naqshbandi Sufi Order.

    I've been studying Shariah for over a decade under qualified scholars of the Hanafi school. Some of the people I have taken classes with have learned under the top scholars of the Muslim world.

    If you have to look up the term "Hanafi", you are trying to punch way, way above your level.

    Quoting random verses and hadith may get you somewhere with the ignorant or frat boys, but we know our verses, we know our religion. It has been expounded upon by scholars for centuries; men who devoted their entire lives to figuring it out. Let me be clear, neither you nor I (nor anyone here) is qualified to derive any ruling or precept from a verse of the Qur'an. If you think you are, that's your problem, not ours.

    If your contention is that Muslims are commanded to kill non-Muslims everywhere we come across them; then this is juvenile nonsense. None of our scholars have ever stated this, nor have any serious non-Muslim academic researchers of Islam. If you want to read a fairly good book about the subject of jihad, then I suggest this one by Prof. Bonner:
    https://press.princeton.edu/titles/8280.html

    I would even recommend this one by Prof. Cook:
    https://www.ucpress.edu/book.php?isbn=9780520287327

    Both are by non-Muslims but look at the concept from an academic perspective.

    Up your game - do some serious research (please don't waste my time with quotes from Zionist fanboy websites like JihadWatch) and then come back with what the scholars of our normative tradition say and we can have an intelligent conversation about Islamic doctrine.

    Otherwise, stick to saying I'm a taqiyyah Muzzie and hope other people here take you seriously.

    Some of the people I have taken classes with have learned under the top scholars of the Muslim world.

    Yeah. I am really impressed by the “scholars” of the muslim world, being mesmerized by their manifold contributions to advancement of humanity in many areas ranging from medicine to space exploration, chip design or renewable energies. Not to mention their amazing track record in terms of Nobel Prizes, Kyoto Prizes, or Fields Medals.

    Let me be clear, neither you nor I (nor anyone here) is qualified to derive any ruling or precept from a verse of the Qur’an.

    In all honesty, I don’t really care much about learning anything more than I already know, regarding this collection of idiotic texts written by (and for) low-IQ camel herders. It is sufficient to me to observe the net result for my country of the massive intake of Moslems over the past 4 decades, specifically, turning every area where they settle en masse invariably into repulsive shitholes. In all fairness, there are a couple of metrics for which muslim immigration always brings unqualified increases: rape and food poisoning.

    I do indeed deeply dislike your religion and the sub-civilization it has engendered. However I do not wish you any harm at a personal level. I would just want that we all agree to live separately and that you stop coming to our countries as a result of the dismal failures of yours.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha

    Not to mention their amazing track record in terms of Nobel Prizes, Kyoto Prizes, or Fields Medals.
     
    Why would our ulema be trying to earn Nobel Prizes?! They study the religion. It’s like asking why hockey players don’t write dissertations in physics.

    I do indeed deeply dislike your religion and the sub-civilization it has engendered.
     
    Totally fine; we don’t care.

    I would just want that we all agree to live separately and that you stop coming to our countries as a result of the dismal failures of yours.
     
    I’m fine with this; can we at least get the West to meet us half way and stop destroying relatively stable countries - you don’t get tons of immigrants from Malaysia do you? That would help immensely. Or you can listen to this guy:
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NJWRw8bRwt4
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  146. Talha says:
    @French Basque

    Some of the people I have taken classes with have learned under the top scholars of the Muslim world.
     
    Yeah. I am really impressed by the "scholars" of the muslim world, being mesmerized by their manifold contributions to advancement of humanity in many areas ranging from medicine to space exploration, chip design or renewable energies. Not to mention their amazing track record in terms of Nobel Prizes, Kyoto Prizes, or Fields Medals.

    Let me be clear, neither you nor I (nor anyone here) is qualified to derive any ruling or precept from a verse of the Qur’an.
     
    In all honesty, I don't really care much about learning anything more than I already know, regarding this collection of idiotic texts written by (and for) low-IQ camel herders. It is sufficient to me to observe the net result for my country of the massive intake of Moslems over the past 4 decades, specifically, turning every area where they settle en masse invariably into repulsive shitholes. In all fairness, there are a couple of metrics for which muslim immigration always brings unqualified increases: rape and food poisoning.

    I do indeed deeply dislike your religion and the sub-civilization it has engendered. However I do not wish you any harm at a personal level. I would just want that we all agree to live separately and that you stop coming to our countries as a result of the dismal failures of yours.

    Not to mention their amazing track record in terms of Nobel Prizes, Kyoto Prizes, or Fields Medals.

    Why would our ulema be trying to earn Nobel Prizes?! They study the religion. It’s like asking why hockey players don’t write dissertations in physics.

    I do indeed deeply dislike your religion and the sub-civilization it has engendered.

    Totally fine; we don’t care.

    I would just want that we all agree to live separately and that you stop coming to our countries as a result of the dismal failures of yours.

    I’m fine with this; can we at least get the West to meet us half way and stop destroying relatively stable countries – you don’t get tons of immigrants from Malaysia do you? That would help immensely. Or you can listen to this guy:

    Read More
    • Replies: @French Basque

    Why would our ulema be trying to earn Nobel Prizes?! They study the religion. It’s like asking why hockey players don’t write dissertations in physics.
     
    Hockey players do not have, on average and by and large, the kind of IQ required to write a PhD dissertation in Physics.

    It is for the same reason that these ulemas "study" the religion -- because they are too stupid to do anything else.

    Speaking of which, just before writing these lines, I learned minutes ago that one follower of your wonderful religion just stabbed 5 innocent passer-bys in Paris, killing one (maybe 2, it's not clear yet), in the name of your pedophile-in-chief. But of course you are going to tell me that this sub-human piece of trash was not a real muslim, as opposed to you the "traditional" Sufi (which seems rather oxymoronic to me, as sufism is a late addition to the zoo of sects comprising your religion, but whatever).
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  147. Syria had not disguised it or camouflaged it.

    Hmm, sounds like the Syrians might not be very competent (who would have thought?).
    Thanks, that’s informative.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Dmitry
    And in which case, an issue is whether they pay for the equipment or not.

    If they pay, then it's still no problem for the Kremlin. Iran and Syria should buy as much equipment as they can from the rational view, and it is still positive even if the equipment is damaged in the battlefield.

    But if it is a free gift of the expensive equipment? Budgets of the actual army are going down this year, in which situation I don't really see how giving for free equipment that is destroyed, remains anymore rational.

    From the international marketing perspective, it also looks incompetent (because you may be giving it to not the most competent operators).

    I'm just looking at the 3 week time-space.

    When three-weeks ago, the article was:

    https://sputniknews.com/military/201804171063644024-pantsir-top-facts/

    And three-weeks later, it was:

    https://www.rt.com/news/426520-syria-israel-pantsir-russia/
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  148. Dmitry says:
    @German_reader

    The complex will likely be destroyed by Israel after it is given
     
    If it's that easy to destroy, what would be the point in Syria getting it?
    I can see though why Russia just doesn't want to give it away...$900 million (wow) isn't exactly cheap.

    Within the air defense network of a developed and well organized country, it would not be easy to destroy. If it is with the Germans, it would not be easy to destroy.

    The question I would have – is when you give it to a country which does not have technological, or necessarily tactical and organizational, equality? There might be a weak link in the chain. And equipment is only as strong as the weak link in the chain.

    We had this conversation two weeks ago with Reinor Tor. And already since that last discussion about this subject, it happened that the new Pantsir-S1 was destroyed for a Twitter video that was posted on the IDF Twitter account (a $15 million Twitter video).

    RT has commissioned articles to explain to the world that a vulnerable complex can be destroyed. According to the last sentence, Syria had not disguised it or camouflaged it.

    https://www.rt.com/news/426520-syria-israel-pantsir-russia/

    Whatever actually happened (whether Israel uses electronic warfare to disable it, or that the Syrian just leave it undefended and turned off, or it runs out of ammunition) – since the last discussion, my point of view seems now more likely than before.

    Read More
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  149. Talha says:
    @German_reader

    Again – it was much more about the preachy attitude.
     
    I'm not sure though where you see that preachy attitude, imo the Europeans at least have tried to some extent to be even-handed, recognizing a certain responsibility for Israel's situation, given the background of European antisemitism, but also trying to support the Palestinians and building lots of infrastructure for them (which Israel unfortunately then destroyed to a large extent). If anything, the Europeans are usually accused of being preachy towards Israel.
    The US has of course become grotesquely one-sided in recent years.

    I wasn’t talking about general European attitudes, I was talking about the European attitude you reflected in your specific post.

    I agree that, in general, it is the cowboys in the US that are backing Israel to the hilt and that there would be a much better situation on the ground if it was just the Europeans involved.

    Peace.

    Read More
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  150. Dmitry says:
    @German_reader

    Syria had not disguised it or camouflaged it.
     
    Hmm, sounds like the Syrians might not be very competent (who would have thought?).
    Thanks, that's informative.

    And in which case, an issue is whether they pay for the equipment or not.

    If they pay, then it’s still no problem for the Kremlin. Iran and Syria should buy as much equipment as they can from the rational view, and it is still positive even if the equipment is damaged in the battlefield.

    But if it is a free gift of the expensive equipment? Budgets of the actual army are going down this year, in which situation I don’t really see how giving for free equipment that is destroyed, remains anymore rational.

    From the international marketing perspective, it also looks incompetent (because you may be giving it to not the most competent operators).

    I’m just looking at the 3 week time-space.

    When three-weeks ago, the article was:

    https://sputniknews.com/military/201804171063644024-pantsir-top-facts/

    And three-weeks later, it was:

    https://www.rt.com/news/426520-syria-israel-pantsir-russia/

    Read More
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  151. songbird says:
    @Talha

    Well yes, but what’s your point?
     
    Well, you actually made my point with the rest of your statement. Again - it was much more about the preachy attitude.

    And if you think that Israel should be dissolved and its Jews leave for Europe or the US
     
    So we can deal with the problem in a century or two after you guys go postal on them again? No thanks!

    No, we'll clean up the mess. A lot of it has to do with the reformation of Muslim attitudes back to normative religious doctrine and removal of the nonsense that Arab nationalism brought with it. I personally don't see Israel lasting that far into the future in its current form - maybe another century, maybe a little more (highly depends on US dominance on the world stage also). Jews will have to decide (along with Muslims of the area) - do we want to keep on this path or go back to how it was where Jews could settle and have communities across the Muslim world? Do Jews want their little bunker or do they want freedom of movement? They'll have to stop encouraging the US to destroy all the ME around them and the Muslims will have to also show that Jews will have protection in the places they want to settle. This may be an easier sell for Middle Eastern Jews, but harder for the European Jews whose insane pipe-dream this whole thing was. Will it be the same as what they have currently in Europe? No - Europe is not the ME, but it can be peaceful and even pleasant.

    I don't mind (and actually think it a good thing) Israel proper being absorbed into a wider economic-political cooperative (kind of like the EU) across the Middle East where they have a level of semi-autonomy in certain areas. We've done the millet thing before for centuries so this is nothing new for us, this would only be modified to come up to modern standards.

    Peace.

    I don’t mind (and actually think it a good thing) Israel proper being absorbed into a wider economic-political cooperative (kind of like the EU) across the Middle East where they have a level of semi-autonomy in certain areas.

    Like everyone, I suppose, I don’t know how to solve the ME issue. Obviously, peace would involve some sort of cooperation or normalized trade. Of course, I am not an Israeli, but I think a reasonable minimum would be Jews keeping their own currency, or else some inflation-proof techno-currency taken completely out of the hands of government. Also, all charity being private – not governmental. Plus freedom of association and no affirmative action.

    A shared currency or redistribution on the EU model is absolutely an unworkable model, IMO. It is not working in the US or in the EU, and it is reasonable to think that it may one day lead to war in either location.

    Maybe what is needed in the ME is the ancient practice of exchanging hostages.

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    • Replies: @Talha
    I don’t know what details would work, people smarter than me can figure it out when the time comes. I don’t think an exact copy of the EU model would work since the ME is not Europe. Nor do I want Jews in any positions over Muslim financial currency other than in in an advisory role (at most). Our views are way too divergent on the topic. Maybe a gold-backed, oil-backed or gold+oil-backed currency - I don’t know.

    Either way, I’d like this chapter to end on some kind of negotiated settlement and not a bloodbath. They way the Israelis are pushing for sanctions and war on Iran is simply making that ideal more and more elusive.

    Peace.
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  152. Mikhail says: • Website
    @Mr. Hack

    Who is fighting for Russians? The Donbass. Those people really were betrayed by Putin. There is nobody to betray in Syria.
     
    Without initial Russian inspiration (read: Putin's knowledge and approval of) there would not have been a Donbas war. Outsiders (Russians, Chechens etc;) were initially flooded into the region to start this maniacal war. Having unnecessarily riled up the area against the Kyivan center, going on four years now, Putin has decided to just let the place rot in the aftermath of heavy fighting, keeping the embers of war smoldering with a much smaller life support than initially given. You cannot dispute that if the support for Russia had been nearly as high in Donbas as it was in the Crimea, there would be no war still going on today, and the Donbas would at least be some sort of 'autonomous' Russian protectorate. It was a poorly designed operation doomed for failure from the very start. Looks like this first test case of the Triune theory (in an area of mixed Russian/Ukrainian citizenry) has failed miserably!

    Without initial Russian inspiration (read: Putin’s knowledge and approval of) there would not have been a Donbas war. Outsiders (Russians, Chechens etc;) were initially flooded into the region to start this maniacal war. Having unnecessarily riled up the area against the Kyivan center, going on four years now, Putin has decided to just let the place rot in the aftermath of heavy fighting, keeping the embers of war smoldering with a much smaller life support than initially given. You cannot dispute that if the support for Russia had been nearly as high in Donbas as it was in the Crimea, there would be no war still going on today, and the Donbas would at least be some sort of ‘autonomous’ Russian protectorate. It was a poorly designed operation doomed for failure from the very start. Looks like this first test case of the Triune theory (in an area of mixed Russian/Ukrainian citizenry) has failed miserably!

    The situation in Donbass was the result of the way the coup in Kiev went off. Specifically:

    - overthrowing a democratically elected prez, who just signed an internationally brokered power sharing arrangement for the next 12 months or so
    - followed by the disproportionate number of nationalist anti-Russian Svoboda members to ministerial positions
    - anti-Russian actions like the blowing up of Kutuzov monument (a Svoboda desire) and a proposed move to further limit Russian language use.

    Like it or not, pro-Russian sentiment exists within the territory that comprised the Ukrainian SSR.

    There’s absolutely no evidence whatsoever to contradict that the majority of the Donbass rebels are indigenous to the territory of the former Ukrainian SSR. This includes the overall makeup of the Donbass leadership. BTW, it’s not like the Kiev regime hasn’t included some foreign support.

    During the American Revolution, the colonists opposed to Britain had the considerable help of the French as well as some other foreigners. In turn, the Brits employed Hessians and even sought the use of Cossacks. BTW, there were many colonists opposed to independence from Britain who fought on the British side.

    Concerning Donbass, whatever polling has been done, indicates a murkiness along the lines of not being gung ho on joining Russia, while not actively opposing such if it happened, along with opposing the Kiev regime. This very scenario has led some to second guess the Kremlin for not being as assertive as it arguably could’ve and should’ve been.

    People the world over prefer a winning attitude. If such is lacking, the enthusiasm is understandably lower.

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    • Replies: @Mr. Hack

    There’s absolutely no evidence whatsoever to contradict that the majority of the Donbass rebels are indigenous to the territory of the former Ukrainian SSR. This includes the overall makeup of the Donbass leadership.
     
    I'm not sure how large the insurgent army was at its height, but Alexander Zakharchenko, the second self proclaimed preident of the DNR is on record stating:

    He said 3-4,000 Russians had joined the rebel ranks during the fighting and some had been killed. "Moreover, many soldiers are coming to us from Russia who prefer to spend their holidays not on the beach but shoulder-to-shoulder with their brothers, fighting for the freedom of Donbass," he said.
     
    It's also well known that many Chechens and Asians from the East and other soldiers of fortune were employed by the insurgents and helped swell their ranks.

    *Aleksander Borodai, the first 'president of the DNR was a Russian.

    *Igor Girkin, a prominent commander was also a Russian.

    *Andrei Antyufeyev, a prominent politician within the DNR, also a Russian.

    *Igor Bezler, a commander, born in Crimea, held Russian citizenship.

    *Igor Gubarev, a self styled 'governor' certaainly has a Russian sounding name.

    Etc; etc;

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-27211501
    , @Mr. Hack

    There’s absolutely no evidence whatsoever to contradict that the majority of the Donbass rebels are indigenous to the territory of the former Ukrainian SSR. This includes the overall makeup of the Donbass leadership.
     
    I'm not sure how large the insurgent army was at its height, but Alexander Zakharchenko, the second self proclaimed preident of the DNR is on record stating:

    He said 3-4,000 Russians had joined the rebel ranks during the fighting and some had been killed. "Moreover, many soldiers are coming to us from Russia who prefer to spend their holidays not on the beach but shoulder-to-shoulder with their brothers, fighting for the freedom of Donbass," he said.
     
    It's also well known that many Chechens and Asians from the East and other soldiers of fortune were employed by the insurgents and helped swell their ranks.

    *Aleksander Borodai, the first 'president of the DNR was a Russian.

    *Igor Girkin, a prominent commander was also a Russian.

    *Andrei Antyufeyev, a prominent politician within the DNR, also a Russian.

    *Igor Bezler, a commander, born in Crimea, held Russian citizenship.

    *Igor Gubarev, a self styled 'governor' certainly has a Russian sounding name.

    Etc; etc;

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-27211501
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  153. Anon[198] • Disclaimer says:
    @French Basque
    Major premise  [Quran 2-191]:

    And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter... and fight them until fitnah is no more, and religion is for Allah
     

    Minor premise [Talha #166 regarding his alleged rejection of violence]:


    I completely agree here, and have always condemned actions that are not sanctioned by sacred law.

     

    Ergo:
    Talha is a practitioner of taqîya.

    Plus we know you guys. We've lived with you for generations.

    The Prophet’s sayings have to be taken in context, and not even necessarily their original context (which is open to scholarly debate*), but the context in which they are taken by traditional Muslims. Otherwise you get a situation analogous to that described by Cardinal Newman:

    “I hold in my hand,” continued the speaker, “a book which I have obtained under very remarkable circumstances. It is not known to the British people, it is circulated only among the lawyers, merchants, and aristocracy, and its restrictive use is secured only by the most solemn oaths, the most fearful penalties, and the utmost vigilance of the police. … It is called ‘Blackstone’s Commentaries on the Laws of England,’ …

    “Now, I should say, gentlemen, that this book, while it is confined to certain classes, is of those classes, on the other hand, of judges, and lawyers, and privy councillors, and justices of the peace, and police magistrates, and clergy, and country gentlemen, the guide, and I may say, the gospel. I open the book, gentlemen, and what are the first words which meet my eyes? ‘The King can do no wrong.’ I beg you to attend, gentlemen, to this most significant assertion; one was accustomed to think that no child of man had the gift of impeccability; one had imagined that, simply speaking, impeccability was a divine attribute; but this British Bible, as I may call it, distinctly ascribes an absolute sinlessness to the King of Great Britain and Ireland. Observe, I am using no words of my own, I am still but quoting what meets my eyes in this remarkable document. The words run thus: ‘It is an axiom of the law of the land that the King himself can do no wrong.’ Was I wrong, then, in speaking of the atheistical maxims of John Bullism? But this is far from all: the writer goes on actually to ascribe to the Sovereign (I tremble while I pronounce the words) absolute perfection; for he speaks thus: ‘The law ascribes to the King in his political capacity ABSOLUTE PERFECTION; the King can do no wrong!’—(groans). One had thought that no human power could thus be described; but the British legislature, judicature, and jurisprudence, have had the unspeakable effrontery to impute to their crowned and sceptred idol, to their doll,”—here cries of “shame, shame,” from the same individual who had distinguished himself in an earlier part of the speech—”to this doll, this puppet whom they have dressed up with a lion and a unicorn, the attribute of ABSOLUTE PERFECTION!” Here the individual who had several times interrupted the speaker sprung up, in spite of the efforts of persons about him to keep him down, and cried out, as far as his words could be collected, “You cowardly liar, our dear good little Queen,” when he was immediately saluted with a cry of “Turn him out,” and soon made his exit from the meeting.

    I don’t think I disagree with you with respect to actual policy recommendations.

    *It is difficult for anyone other than an interested party to deny the enormous development of Islamic doctrine between the days of the Prophet and the days of the early Abbasid caliphate when a great deal of formalization seems to have been done.

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  154. Mikhail says: • Website
    @songbird
    That is rich.

    But here's the thing: Zionism existed before WW2, and Jews did not have any less of a persecution complex, or less of a desire to settle Israel. They were settling it when it was part of the Ottoman empire. They had the Turks wrapped around their little finger, even when they were massacring the Armenians and sharpening their knives in front of the Greeks.

    There's also a lot of hypocrisy fundamental in your indignation. Those "occupied Muslim lands" were really Christian lands occupied by Muslims. Similarly, Europe is occupied by more Muslims than there are Jews in Israel. We also took in many of your Jews too who were fleeing the threat of death. Islam has a long history of persecuting other religions. It began with Muhammad who himself put Jews to the sword. Jews who were, of course, living in Arabia before Islam came into being, and I am pretty sure there are none there now. Maybe, Arabia should be settled with Jews to make up for that violent past.

    Before WW II, Zionism among Jews was nowhere near as popular as it became. Nazi actions greatly helped to popularize Zionism. Tacked onto that, was the highlighting of pre-WW II discriminatory actions against Jews.

    The Ottoman Turks treated the Jews well because at the time, they saw a talented group who didn’t have such threatening national aspirations when compared to some others.

    When Israel was created, the bias against Jews in Arab countries increased. There was also some Arab bias against Jews before Israel’s creation. This explains why Israeli Jews with roots to Arab countries, include some of the more hard line of elements.

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    • Replies: @songbird
    Zionism was a snowball rolling down a hill, IMO. It was inevitable way before WW2.

    Nationalism always starts on the margins. In the 1916 Easter Rising in Dublin, most onlookers were confused by what was happening. Two years later, Sinn Fein won 3/4 of all seats in Ireland. By 1921, there was an Anglo-Irish Treaty.

    The American Revolution was only supported by a third of the population - and that is from sources who were for independence.

    Zionism was in the mainstream consciousness before WW2. GK Chesterton wrote an essay titled something like "On the Jewish Problem" or "On the Jewish Question." Brandeis was also involved in the discussion of Zionism, even though he was an American Jew and trying to maintain an impartial facade.

    Many of the Jewish settlers did have national ambitions under the Turks. There were espionage rings created with the intent of getting the Allies to invade.
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  155. Mikhail says: • Website
    @songbird

    Yes, the Palestinian Christians are pretty much the only ones one can unreservedly feel sorry for in this whole mess.
     
    Not to mention, the Lebanese Christians, who basically had their country permanently destabilized by the refugees.

    Not to mention, the Lebanese Christians, who basically had their country permanently destabilized by the refugees.

    Not so simple, as Lebanese Christians fought among themselves in scenarios that included groups of Christians and Muslims fighting other groups of Christians and Muslims.

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  156. Talha says:
    @songbird

    I don’t mind (and actually think it a good thing) Israel proper being absorbed into a wider economic-political cooperative (kind of like the EU) across the Middle East where they have a level of semi-autonomy in certain areas.
     
    Like everyone, I suppose, I don't know how to solve the ME issue. Obviously, peace would involve some sort of cooperation or normalized trade. Of course, I am not an Israeli, but I think a reasonable minimum would be Jews keeping their own currency, or else some inflation-proof techno-currency taken completely out of the hands of government. Also, all charity being private - not governmental. Plus freedom of association and no affirmative action.

    A shared currency or redistribution on the EU model is absolutely an unworkable model, IMO. It is not working in the US or in the EU, and it is reasonable to think that it may one day lead to war in either location.

    Maybe what is needed in the ME is the ancient practice of exchanging hostages.

    I don’t know what details would work, people smarter than me can figure it out when the time comes. I don’t think an exact copy of the EU model would work since the ME is not Europe. Nor do I want Jews in any positions over Muslim financial currency other than in in an advisory role (at most). Our views are way too divergent on the topic. Maybe a gold-backed, oil-backed or gold+oil-backed currency – I don’t know.

    Either way, I’d like this chapter to end on some kind of negotiated settlement and not a bloodbath. They way the Israelis are pushing for sanctions and war on Iran is simply making that ideal more and more elusive.

    Peace.

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  157. Bliss says:
    @Talha
    Well that’s just great. Why don’t you guys, since you caused the problem in the first place, solve the problem tomorrow and carve out a similar region from Saxony or Bavaria where this persecuted minority can go (since we had relatively good relations before you dumped a bunch of yours on us).

    Then you can have the pleasure of having a nuclear-armed ethno-state with a bunker mentality in your midst. And if the local Germans resist, you can get all indignant about it and call them terrorists and make up for it by giving this ethno-state even more nuclear-armed submarines. That’ll help you assuage the guilt you have for what happened IN EUROPE. Not only in Europe but you brought to occupied Muslim lands:
    http://m.dw.com/en/germany-to-compensate-algerian-jewish-holocaust-survivors/a-42458534

    Except where local authorities were strong enough to resist:
    http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-hurowitz-moroccan-king-mohammed-v-20170425-story.html

    And you can also deal with the zealot cowboys in the US backing them up in the U.N. every time you try to condemn them and helping them always keep a technological edge over European armies.

    Otherwise, you guys can put these opinions where the sun doesn’t shine.

    we had relatively good relations before you dumped a bunch of yours on us

    Lol at this wannabe pretending to get all agitated. Who is this “we” and this “us”? Pakistan is a long ways from Palestine. Why don’t you ever show the same concern for your own neighborhood and your own people?

    The Arabs there are far better off than the Christians, Ahmadis, Sufis, Shias are in Pakistan. Why aren’t you getting agitated about that?

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  158. Bliss says:
    @Talha
    Look, you seem new here...so welcome.

    A little intro on my part; I'm a traditional Muslim, Sunni Orthodox following the Hanafi school (mostly Maturidi in theological precepts) and a student of the Naqshbandi Sufi Order.

    I've been studying Shariah for over a decade under qualified scholars of the Hanafi school. Some of the people I have taken classes with have learned under the top scholars of the Muslim world.

    If you have to look up the term "Hanafi", you are trying to punch way, way above your level.

    Quoting random verses and hadith may get you somewhere with the ignorant or frat boys, but we know our verses, we know our religion. It has been expounded upon by scholars for centuries; men who devoted their entire lives to figuring it out. Let me be clear, neither you nor I (nor anyone here) is qualified to derive any ruling or precept from a verse of the Qur'an. If you think you are, that's your problem, not ours.

    If your contention is that Muslims are commanded to kill non-Muslims everywhere we come across them; then this is juvenile nonsense. None of our scholars have ever stated this, nor have any serious non-Muslim academic researchers of Islam. If you want to read a fairly good book about the subject of jihad, then I suggest this one by Prof. Bonner:
    https://press.princeton.edu/titles/8280.html

    I would even recommend this one by Prof. Cook:
    https://www.ucpress.edu/book.php?isbn=9780520287327

    Both are by non-Muslims but look at the concept from an academic perspective.

    Up your game - do some serious research (please don't waste my time with quotes from Zionist fanboy websites like JihadWatch) and then come back with what the scholars of our normative tradition say and we can have an intelligent conversation about Islamic doctrine.

    Otherwise, stick to saying I'm a taqiyyah Muzzie and hope other people here take you seriously.

    I’m a traditional Muslim…….and a student of the Naqshbandi Sufi Order.

    A traditional muslim believes in the finality of the Quran and the Last Prophet (Mohammad). Joining a Sufi order is proof that you don’t. None of the Sufi orders were founded by Mohammad so how the hell can you call yourself a “traditional muslim”? You may fool most of the people here but you aren’t fooling the salafis. They know you for the heretics you are and they know what they are commanded to do to you when they have the power:

    If anyone leaves the religion, kill him (Mohammad, the Last Messenger of Allah)

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  159. Read More
    • Replies: @for-the-record
    Sounds pretty delusional.

    "More than one third of Iran's population is minority groups, many of whom already seek independence," the paper explains. "U.S. support for these independence movements, both overt and covert, could force the regime to focus attention on them and limit its ability to conduct other malign activities."
     
    The only element of hope that I see, however remote, is that the US is giving Europe a real opportunity, and incentive, to effectively declare its independence.
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  160. Bliss says:
    @Talha
    All lands are occupied by someone in the past. Christians are likewise guilty of this:
    https://christianhistoryinstitute.org/magazine/article/interview-converting-by-the-sword

    Muslims were simply way better at it. And those populations converted over time to Islam themselves. And some of those Christians were quite happy we kicked out the Byzantines:
    “The persecution of the Syrian Church by the Byzantine Empire did not end until the appearance of Islam. Only through the campaigns of Islam in the first half of the 7th century was it possible to free the East from the Byzantines and the Persians. This happened with the help of the members of the Syrian Church; the original inhabitants of Syria of whom one part was of Aramaic origin who inhabited these areas for generations and another part was of Arabic origin. When the Arab Muslims marched into Syria they were welcomed by the Syrians who saw the new rulers as saviors who freed them from the yoke of the Byzantines because the Byzantines tried by force to assimilate them into the Byzantine Church.“
    http://syrianorthodoxchurch.org/2010/03/a-short-overview-of-the-common-history/

    You guys only pay attention to the Greek/Melkite side of the story.

    That’s what post-WW2 protocols are supposed to stop - conquest by force. Now if you want the lands back, you have the addresses - drop out of international treaties and come take them.

    The Prophet (pbuh) dealt with Jews in the manner that they deserved; if they were friendly, they were treated as friendly and if they were hostile and sided with the enemy they were exiled or had their men killed. Par for the course. So we have rules for how to deal with minorities based on how they behave. And - as Imam Mawardi (ra) and others have made clear, the violation of the dhimmi covenant by one party does not violate for others.

    I do not, nor have I ever condoned the massacres of various innocent Christian minorities during the time you mention. There is no sanction for the killing of innocents in the sacred law and the Turks that did so will have to answer before God for their crimes.

    If you want to compare records with treatment of Jews, Mark Cohen already wrote an extensive study of it:
    https://press.princeton.edu/titles/8761.html

    European better treatment of Jews is a relatively recent thing...and then they went postal on them.

    Peace.

    There is no sanction for the killing of innocents in the sacred law

    Mohammad himself killed numerous innocents. And your “sacred law” is based largely on his behavior. Explain that away.

    Btw, it is only fair to point out that Moses killed more innocents (including children) than Mohammad. At least Mohammad is not known to have killed babies and little children. For example in the wholesale beheadings of the males of the Jewish tribe of Banu Qurayza in Medina only the (innocent) boys who had begun to sprout pubic hair were killed in the bloodbath.

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    • Replies: @Talha
    Who is this “we” and this “us”?
    And who are you that I should care that you are triggered every time I post?

    Mohammad himself killed numerous innocents.
     
    You just explained why he didn’t kill any innocents. Military-age males weren’t innocent in a tribal war. On top of that, men of Bani Qurayza (a small minority for sure) who did not violate the covenant were let go. If you feel otherwise, your opinion is noted and dismissed.

    The Muslims of Pakistan could be doing better, they need to get the extremism under control for sure.

    Thanks for telling me one more time why you think Sufis cannot be Orthodox Muslims; I support your right to believe you have a point.

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  161. @German_reader
    http://freebeacon.com/national-security/white-house-examining-plan-spark-regime-change-iran/

    Sounds pretty delusional.

    Sounds pretty delusional.

    “More than one third of Iran’s population is minority groups, many of whom already seek independence,” the paper explains. “U.S. support for these independence movements, both overt and covert, could force the regime to focus attention on them and limit its ability to conduct other malign activities.”

    The only element of hope that I see, however remote, is that the US is giving Europe a real opportunity, and incentive, to effectively declare its independence.

    Read More
    • Replies: @German_reader

    The only element of hope that I see, however remote, is that the US is giving Europe a real opportunity, and incentive, to effectively declare its independence
     
    European politicians are too incompetent and unimaginative for something like that. Besides, they have serious flaws of their own (not least their open borders project which is going to tear the union apart or ruin Europe).
    I'm just stunned though at the level of delusion in Trump's administration if the report I linked to is correct. These people have learned nothing at all from Iraq. "Just remove the evil regime in Tehran and everything will be wonderful in the region"...just like Saddam's removal was supposed to usher in an era of freedom and democracy in the Mideast. And Bolton is apparently now regarded as a respectable expert (does this maniac even know any Mideastern languages? Probably not). Grotesque.
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  162. songbird says:
    @Mikhail
    Before WW II, Zionism among Jews was nowhere near as popular as it became. Nazi actions greatly helped to popularize Zionism. Tacked onto that, was the highlighting of pre-WW II discriminatory actions against Jews.

    The Ottoman Turks treated the Jews well because at the time, they saw a talented group who didn't have such threatening national aspirations when compared to some others.

    When Israel was created, the bias against Jews in Arab countries increased. There was also some Arab bias against Jews before Israel's creation. This explains why Israeli Jews with roots to Arab countries, include some of the more hard line of elements.

    Zionism was a snowball rolling down a hill, IMO. It was inevitable way before WW2.

    Nationalism always starts on the margins. In the 1916 Easter Rising in Dublin, most onlookers were confused by what was happening. Two years later, Sinn Fein won 3/4 of all seats in Ireland. By 1921, there was an Anglo-Irish Treaty.

    The American Revolution was only supported by a third of the population – and that is from sources who were for independence.

    Zionism was in the mainstream consciousness before WW2. GK Chesterton wrote an essay titled something like “On the Jewish Problem” or “On the Jewish Question.” Brandeis was also involved in the discussion of Zionism, even though he was an American Jew and trying to maintain an impartial facade.

    Many of the Jewish settlers did have national ambitions under the Turks. There were espionage rings created with the intent of getting the Allies to invade.

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    • Replies: @LondonBob
    That one third quote is bogus and relates to another issue, namely the French Revolution. The American War for Independence was successful because the vast majority supported it. New England almost uniformly, with a few places in the rest of the colonies having some loyalists.
    , @Mikhail
    We don't know for sure if Israel would've occurred without Nazi actions that greatly popularized its creation.

    Just look at the number of displaced Jews after WW II.
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  163. @for-the-record
    Sounds pretty delusional.

    "More than one third of Iran's population is minority groups, many of whom already seek independence," the paper explains. "U.S. support for these independence movements, both overt and covert, could force the regime to focus attention on them and limit its ability to conduct other malign activities."
     
    The only element of hope that I see, however remote, is that the US is giving Europe a real opportunity, and incentive, to effectively declare its independence.

    The only element of hope that I see, however remote, is that the US is giving Europe a real opportunity, and incentive, to effectively declare its independence

    European politicians are too incompetent and unimaginative for something like that. Besides, they have serious flaws of their own (not least their open borders project which is going to tear the union apart or ruin Europe).
    I’m just stunned though at the level of delusion in Trump’s administration if the report I linked to is correct. These people have learned nothing at all from Iraq. “Just remove the evil regime in Tehran and everything will be wonderful in the region”…just like Saddam’s removal was supposed to usher in an era of freedom and democracy in the Mideast. And Bolton is apparently now regarded as a respectable expert (does this maniac even know any Mideastern languages? Probably not). Grotesque.

    Read More
    • Replies: @for-the-record
    I’m just stunned though at the level of delusion in Trump’s administration if the report I linked to is correct.

    Of course it is.

    Shortly after Trump was elected he held a meeting with Rep. Tulsi Gabbard, known among other things for sponsoring a resolution that would have required the US to stop supporting terrorism (!):

    https://www.congress.gov/bill/115th-congress/house-bill/608

    There seemed a real possibility that she would cross party lines and become Trump's UN Ambassador (or even possibly Secretary of State). Unbelievably, it seemed that there might be some hope.

    But when Trump then proceeded to choose Nikki Haley, and when John Bolton's name was then mentioned as a serious contender for Secretary of State, I knew it was all over, it was just a matter of time.

    These people have learned nothing at all from Iraq. “Just remove the evil regime in Tehran and everything will be wonderful in the region”

    I think you are a little bit naive here. They never seriously believed that peace and love would prosper in Mesopotamia, they simply wanted to destroy an unfriendly, independent government (cf. Libya, Syria). Iraq wasn't a mistake, it was a success for those like Bolton. Similarly, the goal in Iran is not a Persian Renaissance, but destruction of what is perceived as a threat to US (and friendly) interests.

    The fact that Bolton -- who first came to my attention in 2002 when he famously warned about Cuba's biological warfare program -- can be (and make no doubt about it, is) considered a serious voice on such matters is absolute proof that things are totally f***ed (excuse my Greek).

    https://www.nytimes.com/2002/05/07/world/washington-accuses-cuba-of-germ-warfare-research.html
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  164. Bliss says:
    @German_reader

    Since Folke Bernadotte they showed they tried to be fair in Jewish-Arab conflict
     
    No point in that imo. As far as I'm concerned, both Israel and the Palestinians can go to hell. Yes, the Palestinians suffered a serious injustice, and yes, it's understandable Jews want their own state after their history as a horribly persecuted minority. But in the end, I find both sides thoroughly immoral and unpleasant...both the Palestinians with their Islamism and terrorism and the Israelis with their demented, religion-infused nationalism and land-grabbing greed are appalling. And both the Palestinians' and Israelis' coethnics and coreligionists in the West are actively working against the interests of white Europeans. So screw both of them.

    land-grabbing greed

    That’s funny coming from an european. The world champions of land grabbing are the Russians, the Brits, the Iberians. All gentile euros.

    Have you ever looked at a map of Israel? It is tiny. At it’s neck it is only about ten miles across. To call the Israelis greedy for land is obscenely unfair.

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    • Replies: @German_reader

    To call the Israelis greedy for land is obscenely unfair
     
    By historical standards that's certainly true, but I think you understood what I meant. I just haven't seen any convincing explanation how Israel's ongoing settlements policy is going to end well...is Israel going to expel the Palestinians in those areas, grant them equal rights or permanently keep them in subordinate status? None of those options seem desirable to me.
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  165. Talha says:
    @Bliss

    There is no sanction for the killing of innocents in the sacred law
     
    Mohammad himself killed numerous innocents. And your “sacred law” is based largely on his behavior. Explain that away.

    Btw, it is only fair to point out that Moses killed more innocents (including children) than Mohammad. At least Mohammad is not known to have killed babies and little children. For example in the wholesale beheadings of the males of the Jewish tribe of Banu Qurayza in Medina only the (innocent) boys who had begun to sprout pubic hair were killed in the bloodbath.

    Who is this “we” and this “us”?
    And who are you that I should care that you are triggered every time I post?

    Mohammad himself killed numerous innocents.

    You just explained why he didn’t kill any innocents. Military-age males weren’t innocent in a tribal war. On top of that, men of Bani Qurayza (a small minority for sure) who did not violate the covenant were let go. If you feel otherwise, your opinion is noted and dismissed.

    The Muslims of Pakistan could be doing better, they need to get the extremism under control for sure.

    Thanks for telling me one more time why you think Sufis cannot be Orthodox Muslims; I support your right to believe you have a point.

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    • Replies: @Bliss

    You just explained why he didn’t kill any innocents. .
     
    You obviously have no sense of ethics and morality, or justice, if you think that pubic hair is proof of guilt.

    men of Bani Qurayza (a small minority for sure) who did not violate the covenant were let go
     
    And just in the previous sentence this congenital liar wrote: “Military-age males weren’t innocent in a tribal war”. Have you no shame man?

    Explain how the pre-teen boys who just began sprouting pubes were guilty of violating the covenant?

    Btw, the covenant this scoundrel is talking about was one with a robber who attacked caravans stole the goods and killed or enslaved the merchants (released when ransomed).
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  166. @German_reader

    The only element of hope that I see, however remote, is that the US is giving Europe a real opportunity, and incentive, to effectively declare its independence
     
    European politicians are too incompetent and unimaginative for something like that. Besides, they have serious flaws of their own (not least their open borders project which is going to tear the union apart or ruin Europe).
    I'm just stunned though at the level of delusion in Trump's administration if the report I linked to is correct. These people have learned nothing at all from Iraq. "Just remove the evil regime in Tehran and everything will be wonderful in the region"...just like Saddam's removal was supposed to usher in an era of freedom and democracy in the Mideast. And Bolton is apparently now regarded as a respectable expert (does this maniac even know any Mideastern languages? Probably not). Grotesque.

    I’m just stunned though at the level of delusion in Trump’s administration if the report I linked to is correct.

    Of course it is.

    Shortly after Trump was elected he held a meeting with Rep. Tulsi Gabbard, known among other things for sponsoring a resolution that would have required the US to stop supporting terrorism (!):

    https://www.congress.gov/bill/115th-congress/house-bill/608

    There seemed a real possibility that she would cross party lines and become Trump’s UN Ambassador (or even possibly Secretary of State). Unbelievably, it seemed that there might be some hope.

    But when Trump then proceeded to choose Nikki Haley, and when John Bolton’s name was then mentioned as a serious contender for Secretary of State, I knew it was all over, it was just a matter of time.

    These people have learned nothing at all from Iraq. “Just remove the evil regime in Tehran and everything will be wonderful in the region”

    I think you are a little bit naive here. They never seriously believed that peace and love would prosper in Mesopotamia, they simply wanted to destroy an unfriendly, independent government (cf. Libya, Syria). Iraq wasn’t a mistake, it was a success for those like Bolton. Similarly, the goal in Iran is not a Persian Renaissance, but destruction of what is perceived as a threat to US (and friendly) interests.

    The fact that Bolton — who first came to my attention in 2002 when he famously warned about Cuba’s biological warfare program — can be (and make no doubt about it, is) considered a serious voice on such matters is absolute proof that things are totally f***ed (excuse my Greek).

    https://www.nytimes.com/2002/05/07/world/washington-accuses-cuba-of-germ-warfare-research.html

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    • Replies: @Jayce
    the goal in Iran is not a Persian Renaissance

    The US would never be able to accommodate any kind of Iranian nationalism because it's so explicitly anti-Saudi, far more than the regime is. It is, however, the most viable and organic opposition to the mullahs, and where all the energy and real human capital is. That they're even still taking about losers like MEK and minor ethnic separatists no one has ever heard of is some kind of bad joke.
    , @utu

    Iraq wasn’t a mistake, it was a success for those like Bolton.
     
    Exactly: The goal was to destroy functioning state and turn it into Hobbesian chaos where ethnic and sectarian factions can be sicced at each of the for ever.

    http://www.unz.com/article/tracing-the-rush-to-war/?highlight=tier#comment-2291549
    Causes of wars in ME:

    3rd tier: the ostensive cause – weapons of mass destruction, bringing democracy, saving women and children. etc. This you can read in the MSM.

    2nd tier: hidden causes for those who think that they are more savvy – pipelines, oil, banking, gold, MIC profits, etc.

    1st tier: the mother of all causes – implementation of the Yinon and PNAC plans for the future of Israel which in first stage is to destabilize and destroy functioning semi-secular Arab/Muslim states by turning them in Hobbesian chaos where sectarian and ethnic faction can be made to fight each other.
     

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  167. @AP
    Very interesting; I agree with this. It always puzzled me why these people were betrayed.

    Thank you. And the sad part is that most of my compatriots have a good opinion of the traitor that de Gaulle was.

    On the other hand, one of the core constituencies of the Front National is the Pied-Noirs and their descendants, and historically one of the very first.

    Another thing of interest regarding de Gaulle for you guys (or more likely your ancestors) who suffered under the communist yoke: he always played a very murky game with the commies. For example, exactly 50 years ago, as the “events” of May 1968 in Paris were beginning to get seriously out of hand, by the middle of the month, he was visiting Ceausescu in Romania and being all chummy with him.

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    • Replies: @AP
    When I was a teenager I enjoyed reading Camus. I once went to a show in Detroit by the band the Cure, where they played a louder punk version of "Killing an Arab" in the most Arabic city in America, with the crowd singing along.

    I have thought about how great would it have been if there had remained a real piece of France in northern Africa - some mountains, some beaches, some desert- populated by civilized people. There was enough of a population to have made this a viable reality if they all moved to, say Oran and its surroundings. If they Harkis had joined the French in this enclave, do you think their grandchildren would have radicalized, or would they have remained loyal to France across generations?

    How it could have been utterly abandoned and destroyed is shocking.

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  168. @for-the-record
    They must be well-educated then :)

    Both got mention très bien. On more than one occasion we (parents) were told by their schools that they were progressing well despite their "handicap" (us, being non-native French speakers).

    I think you are perhaps being a bit overly charitable with respect to Perfidious Albion -- French losses after all were more than half of those at Pearl Harbor. In particular, the option of sailing the fleet to a "safe" destination (French West Indies) was never fully explored.

    The mention très bien is indeed impressive, especially for children with this “handicap”! I am not surprised at all that you were told such things.

    What is also very interesting here is that your children, despite this “handicap”, were both able to get such grades.

    On the other hand, the co-religionnaries of Talha, despite the fact that most of them are now second or third-generation “French” (on paper of course), and despite the many hundreds of millions of € that have been dumped in remediation courses for them, despite also all the free passes and special treatments they get from the multi-culti types infesting all echelons of the Éducation Nationale, are still miserably failing academically and drag the country’s PISA scores lower every 3 years. No wonder the smartest amongst them become “scholars” of the Quran rather than of theoretical physics.

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    • Replies: @Talha

    On the other hand, the co-religionnaries of Talha, despite the fact that most of them are now second or third-generation “French”
     
    It’s fairly obvious we haven’t been sending you our best for a while, but why are you guys accepting them? I thought you guys were intelligent; what gives? You can complain about your multi-culti types just like I can complain about our extremists, but at least we’re inbred retards so it’s surprising that extremism isn’t more widespread...but what’s your excuse?
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  169. Anon[198] • Disclaimer says:
    @DFH

    I think you are perhaps being a bit overly charitable with respect to Perfidious Albion — French losses after all were more than half of those at Pearl Harbor. In particular, the option of sailing the fleet to a “safe” destination (French West Indies) was never fully explored.
     
    Obviously the British should have magnanimously allowed the risk of their enemies gaining one of the world's largest fleet to use in their planned invasion instead.

    National necessity– laughed at when Prussians claim it, solemnly accepted when Brits do.

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    • Replies: @LondonBob
    Perhaps you should wonder why that is the case, reputation matters.
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  170. @Talha

    Not to mention their amazing track record in terms of Nobel Prizes, Kyoto Prizes, or Fields Medals.
     
    Why would our ulema be trying to earn Nobel Prizes?! They study the religion. It’s like asking why hockey players don’t write dissertations in physics.

    I do indeed deeply dislike your religion and the sub-civilization it has engendered.
     
    Totally fine; we don’t care.

    I would just want that we all agree to live separately and that you stop coming to our countries as a result of the dismal failures of yours.
     
    I’m fine with this; can we at least get the West to meet us half way and stop destroying relatively stable countries - you don’t get tons of immigrants from Malaysia do you? That would help immensely. Or you can listen to this guy:
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NJWRw8bRwt4

    Why would our ulema be trying to earn Nobel Prizes?! They study the religion. It’s like asking why hockey players don’t write dissertations in physics.

    Hockey players do not have, on average and by and large, the kind of IQ required to write a PhD dissertation in Physics.

    It is for the same reason that these ulemas “study” the religion — because they are too stupid to do anything else.

    Speaking of which, just before writing these lines, I learned minutes ago that one follower of your wonderful religion just stabbed 5 innocent passer-bys in Paris, killing one (maybe 2, it’s not clear yet), in the name of your pedophile-in-chief. But of course you are going to tell me that this sub-human piece of trash was not a real muslim, as opposed to you the “traditional” Sufi (which seems rather oxymoronic to me, as sufism is a late addition to the zoo of sects comprising your religion, but whatever).

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    • Replies: @Talha

    It is for the same reason that these ulemas “study” the religion — because they are too stupid to do anything else.
     
    No - plenty of them are quite intelligent, they just decide to study the religion because it’s still something we consider important.

    When they decide to go into secular studies, they do just fine. This is one of my first teachers in Arabic; a credentialed Islamic scholar and doctor (who I recently attended a pre-Ramadan prep course with):
    “In 2006, he received degrees in both Shari’ah studies and Medicine. From 2007 to 2013, Shaykh Omar completed his medical residency in Anatomic and Clinical Pathology and fellowships in Hematopathology and Molecular Genetic Pathology at Washington University in St. Louis. During this time, he was also received formal authorization in the Islamic science of spiritual purification. Shaykh Omar is currently a staff physician at the Moffitt Cancer Center and an Assistant Professor of Oncological Sciences at the University of South Florida in Tampa where he resides.”
    http://pureway.org/shaykh-omar/


    But of course you are going to tell me that this sub-human piece of trash was not a real muslim
     
    No, he was a Muslim, but he was an extremist - you know you gotta kind of earn that label and passing out cookies and ice cream doesn’t do it. Extremists kill other Muslims with a passion, in far more numbers than non-Muslims, so why would they treat you guys nicely? Now if you think Islamic doctrine supports that, by all means - bring statements from our scholars or institutions that say killing innocents in Paris by going stab-happy is sanctioned by sacred law.

    which seems rather oxymoronic to me
     
    Sure but you have admitted you are fairly ignorant on the subject and don’t feel like studying it further. The fact that you would call Sufis a sect puts a further nail on that coffin. I mean it’s fine, call it and opine whatever - just don’t expect us to take it seriously.
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  171. Talha says:
    @French Basque
    The mention très bien is indeed impressive, especially for children with this "handicap"! I am not surprised at all that you were told such things.

    What is also very interesting here is that your children, despite this "handicap", were both able to get such grades.

    On the other hand, the co-religionnaries of Talha, despite the fact that most of them are now second or third-generation "French" (on paper of course), and despite the many hundreds of millions of € that have been dumped in remediation courses for them, despite also all the free passes and special treatments they get from the multi-culti types infesting all echelons of the Éducation Nationale, are still miserably failing academically and drag the country's PISA scores lower every 3 years. No wonder the smartest amongst them become "scholars" of the Quran rather than of theoretical physics.

    On the other hand, the co-religionnaries of Talha, despite the fact that most of them are now second or third-generation “French”

    It’s fairly obvious we haven’t been sending you our best for a while, but why are you guys accepting them? I thought you guys were intelligent; what gives? You can complain about your multi-culti types just like I can complain about our extremists, but at least we’re inbred retards so it’s surprising that extremism isn’t more widespread…but what’s your excuse?

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  172. @Bliss

    land-grabbing greed
     
    That’s funny coming from an european. The world champions of land grabbing are the Russians, the Brits, the Iberians. All gentile euros.

    Have you ever looked at a map of Israel? It is tiny. At it’s neck it is only about ten miles across. To call the Israelis greedy for land is obscenely unfair.

    To call the Israelis greedy for land is obscenely unfair

    By historical standards that’s certainly true, but I think you understood what I meant. I just haven’t seen any convincing explanation how Israel’s ongoing settlements policy is going to end well…is Israel going to expel the Palestinians in those areas, grant them equal rights or permanently keep them in subordinate status? None of those options seem desirable to me.

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    • Replies: @Bliss

    By historical standards that’s certainly true, but I think you understood what I meant.
     
    The euro land grab is not just historical, it is current. I am sure you must know that. For example, Russia is still occupying Siberia which is well over two thousand times the size of the West Bank.

    By recent historical standards the Jews haven’t behaved nearly as badly towards the Palestinians as you Germans have behaved towards Slavs, Gypsies, Jews, Africans. Or as Ukrainians behaved towards the Poles. Or as Arabs behaved towards Kurds. Or as Turks behaved towards Armenians. And so on...
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  173. Bliss says:

    Netanyahu Was In Moscow. So What.

    So, was Putin in cahoots with Netanyahu and Trump in the synchronization of events this week, or was he set up to look like that?

    Trump announcing withdrawal from the Iran deal the day before Netanyahu stood as guest of honor at Russia’s big parade and Netanyahu massively attacking Iranian bases in Syria as soon as he returned to Israel sends a powerful message to Iran, doesn’t it?

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  174. @German_reader
    Thanks for your good wishes, it is appreciated!

    Regarding Talha, I actually value his comments, and find him quite honest in expressing his world view (which I find rather disturbing for many reasons) so I wouldn't accuse him of taqiyya. I'm a bit sorry my comment seems to have triggered him. It's certainly true that the Palestinians in the 1940s suffered grievously as a result of developments for which they weren't responsible. I still believe though that they aren't without a certain responsibility for their current situation. Their adoption of nihilistic terrorist tactics and explicitly Islamist ideology make it hard to feel unqualified sympathy for them imo.
    Btw, interesting you mentioned you the Oran massacre. I learned about that incident a few years ago in a tv documentary about the Algerian war and was irritated that no one seems to know what exactly happened there and how many Europeans were killed (some estimates go in the hundreds or even thousands after all). It surprised me that there never seems to have been a conclusive investigation about this, but I guess that wasn't opportune in France after 1962.

    Yes, and in fact the Oran massacre is only the tip of the iceberg.

    The father of friend, now deceased, was a young (commissioned) officer who served during the war in Algérie in a commando de chasse, those units who were instrumental in militarily defeating the FLN (again, we have to remember that de Gaulle gave independence to those would had actually been militarily defeated). A few years before he died I spent almost one afternoon speaking with this man about that war. He told me in particular of one occasion when they raided (too late alas) a village where a group of European civilian hostages had been brought by a group of fellaghas after having been abducted from a Pied-Noir settlement. I don’t event want to write here what he told me, that would be obscene, but suffice it to say that what he saw, especially what these animals had done to the women, was an absolute abomination. This rugged man, in his 70s at the time, and almost 50 years after the fact, was still visibly traumatized by what he saw. What surprises me the most is how he, and his fellow junior officers, managed to prevent their men from killing off the entire Arab village in retaliation. Placed in the same situation, I am certain that I would not have exercised such restraint.

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    • Replies: @songbird
    I wonder how much press any of this sort of thing got in France at the time.

    I know I have certainly heard some very hair-raising tales, and it really surprises me that people fleeing for their lives were allowed to be followed in such numbers by the people who had made them flee for their lives.

    Amazing how many French support open borders today. I can only blame it on ignorance.
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  175. Talha says:
    @French Basque

    Why would our ulema be trying to earn Nobel Prizes?! They study the religion. It’s like asking why hockey players don’t write dissertations in physics.
     
    Hockey players do not have, on average and by and large, the kind of IQ required to write a PhD dissertation in Physics.

    It is for the same reason that these ulemas "study" the religion -- because they are too stupid to do anything else.

    Speaking of which, just before writing these lines, I learned minutes ago that one follower of your wonderful religion just stabbed 5 innocent passer-bys in Paris, killing one (maybe 2, it's not clear yet), in the name of your pedophile-in-chief. But of course you are going to tell me that this sub-human piece of trash was not a real muslim, as opposed to you the "traditional" Sufi (which seems rather oxymoronic to me, as sufism is a late addition to the zoo of sects comprising your religion, but whatever).

    It is for the same reason that these ulemas “study” the religion — because they are too stupid to do anything else.

    No – plenty of them are quite intelligent, they just decide to study the religion because it’s still something we consider important.

    When they decide to go into secular studies, they do just fine. This is one of my first teachers in Arabic; a credentialed Islamic scholar and doctor (who I recently attended a pre-Ramadan prep course with):
    “In 2006, he received degrees in both Shari’ah studies and Medicine. From 2007 to 2013, Shaykh Omar completed his medical residency in Anatomic and Clinical Pathology and fellowships in Hematopathology and Molecular Genetic Pathology at Washington University in St. Louis. During this time, he was also received formal authorization in the Islamic science of spiritual purification. Shaykh Omar is currently a staff physician at the Moffitt Cancer Center and an Assistant Professor of Oncological Sciences at the University of South Florida in Tampa where he resides.”

    http://pureway.org/shaykh-omar/

    But of course you are going to tell me that this sub-human piece of trash was not a real muslim

    No, he was a Muslim, but he was an extremist – you know you gotta kind of earn that label and passing out cookies and ice cream doesn’t do it. Extremists kill other Muslims with a passion, in far more numbers than non-Muslims, so why would they treat you guys nicely? Now if you think Islamic doctrine supports that, by all means – bring statements from our scholars or institutions that say killing innocents in Paris by going stab-happy is sanctioned by sacred law.

    which seems rather oxymoronic to me

    Sure but you have admitted you are fairly ignorant on the subject and don’t feel like studying it further. The fact that you would call Sufis a sect puts a further nail on that coffin. I mean it’s fine, call it and opine whatever – just don’t expect us to take it seriously.

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    • Replies: @AaronB
    Europe is only capable of producing spiritually empty people like French Basque these days - all you have to do is smile and wait, Europe will fall into your hands like a ripe fruit. Or perhaps an overripe, rotten fruit.

    I was going to say you are probably chuckling inside, but I know you are not a malicious person, so you're probably feeling more pity than anything else.

    I am willing to go out on a limb and guess that our good French Basque is over 50 years old - the hopeless generation of older Europeans, products of the nadir of European culture, that we must sadly write off. In a sad kind of way it's amusing to hear them talk about "intelligence" and "technology", bewildered that their countries are slipping away from them.

    As new generations of Europeans arise, and glimmers of spiritual health begin appearing, I am curious as to what direction they will take.
    , @French Basque

    It’s fairly obvious we haven’t been sending you our best for a while,
     
    The ones we got appear to be the smartest ones, at least from the limited studies that seem to indicate that second or third generation Arabs living here have slightly higher IQs than the national averages of their countries of origin. Not that it is still sufficient to make them anything else than a drag on the countries of destination, but still, that is to be acknowledged.

    but why are you guys accepting them? I thought you guys were intelligent; what gives?
     
    I for one am not accepting them, and in fact in the case of France (but also of all other European countries), opinion polls demonstrate a majority of the population saying that there are too many of them. Where there is a diversity of opinion is what "too many" means exactly, and what to do with those "too many". In my case I think that "too many" means "all of them", and regarding the solution I think something akin to Spain 1492 second edition is a good option. In addition I think the islamic religion should be entirely banned from here, and therefore the White converts would be given the choice to either apostasize publicly (but still be sent to the Kerguelen Archipelago ad perpetuam just to be safe) or to not recant their conversion and be sent to Adélie Land instead.

    You can complain about your multi-culti types just like I can complain about our extremists,
     
    Yes but at least our multi-culti types don't wander around the streets of Algiers randomly stabbing people. Plus their are mostly boomers and dying off, the White youth here overwhelmingly supports the Front National or formations further to the Right, which is highly encouraging.

    but at least we’re inbred retards so it’s surprising that extremism isn’t more widespread…but what’s your excuse?
     
    You may be surprised but I am going to tell you that, in my opinion and based on my observation of the local muslim populace, the Salafi/extremist/terrorist ones appears to be made of the least stupid amongst them -- at the very least, the less apathetic. The other ones just seem content to live off the welfare system and smoke the chicha in their filthy "kebab" outlets. Life is quite good around here for these losers.

    Sure but you have admitted you are fairly ignorant on the subject and don’t feel like studying it further.
     
    I amply study it indeed, but not by reading the dull islamic prose, but from a socio-ethnological angle: I just observe the life and works of the adherents to that religion. By the fruits you shall know the tree, you know? So I am just observing.

    On the other hand the buddhist yellow people who have settled around here, and there a quite a few of them, ten to be nice, industrious, respectful, their kids don't sell drugs nor rape the local girls, are polite, etc. The difference in outcomes is self-evident. I don't need to know sh!t about the theoretical foundations of buddhism to figure this out.
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  176. Jayce says:
    @for-the-record
    I’m just stunned though at the level of delusion in Trump’s administration if the report I linked to is correct.

    Of course it is.

    Shortly after Trump was elected he held a meeting with Rep. Tulsi Gabbard, known among other things for sponsoring a resolution that would have required the US to stop supporting terrorism (!):

    https://www.congress.gov/bill/115th-congress/house-bill/608

    There seemed a real possibility that she would cross party lines and become Trump's UN Ambassador (or even possibly Secretary of State). Unbelievably, it seemed that there might be some hope.

    But when Trump then proceeded to choose Nikki Haley, and when John Bolton's name was then mentioned as a serious contender for Secretary of State, I knew it was all over, it was just a matter of time.

    These people have learned nothing at all from Iraq. “Just remove the evil regime in Tehran and everything will be wonderful in the region”

    I think you are a little bit naive here. They never seriously believed that peace and love would prosper in Mesopotamia, they simply wanted to destroy an unfriendly, independent government (cf. Libya, Syria). Iraq wasn't a mistake, it was a success for those like Bolton. Similarly, the goal in Iran is not a Persian Renaissance, but destruction of what is perceived as a threat to US (and friendly) interests.

    The fact that Bolton -- who first came to my attention in 2002 when he famously warned about Cuba's biological warfare program -- can be (and make no doubt about it, is) considered a serious voice on such matters is absolute proof that things are totally f***ed (excuse my Greek).

    https://www.nytimes.com/2002/05/07/world/washington-accuses-cuba-of-germ-warfare-research.html

    the goal in Iran is not a Persian Renaissance

    The US would never be able to accommodate any kind of Iranian nationalism because it’s so explicitly anti-Saudi, far more than the regime is. It is, however, the most viable and organic opposition to the mullahs, and where all the energy and real human capital is. That they’re even still taking about losers like MEK and minor ethnic separatists no one has ever heard of is some kind of bad joke.

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    • Replies: @German_reader

    The US would never be able to accommodate any kind of Iranian nationalism because it’s so explicitly anti-Saudi, far more than the regime is. It is, however, the most viable and organic opposition to the mullahs, and where all the energy and real human capital is.
     
    That sounds interesting, could you elaborate a bit on that?
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  177. @Jayce
    the goal in Iran is not a Persian Renaissance

    The US would never be able to accommodate any kind of Iranian nationalism because it's so explicitly anti-Saudi, far more than the regime is. It is, however, the most viable and organic opposition to the mullahs, and where all the energy and real human capital is. That they're even still taking about losers like MEK and minor ethnic separatists no one has ever heard of is some kind of bad joke.

    The US would never be able to accommodate any kind of Iranian nationalism because it’s so explicitly anti-Saudi, far more than the regime is. It is, however, the most viable and organic opposition to the mullahs, and where all the energy and real human capital is.

    That sounds interesting, could you elaborate a bit on that?

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  178. Mr. Hack says:
    @Mikhail

    Without initial Russian inspiration (read: Putin’s knowledge and approval of) there would not have been a Donbas war. Outsiders (Russians, Chechens etc;) were initially flooded into the region to start this maniacal war. Having unnecessarily riled up the area against the Kyivan center, going on four years now, Putin has decided to just let the place rot in the aftermath of heavy fighting, keeping the embers of war smoldering with a much smaller life support than initially given. You cannot dispute that if the support for Russia had been nearly as high in Donbas as it was in the Crimea, there would be no war still going on today, and the Donbas would at least be some sort of ‘autonomous’ Russian protectorate. It was a poorly designed operation doomed for failure from the very start. Looks like this first test case of the Triune theory (in an area of mixed Russian/Ukrainian citizenry) has failed miserably!
     
    The situation in Donbass was the result of the way the coup in Kiev went off. Specifically:

    - overthrowing a democratically elected prez, who just signed an internationally brokered power sharing arrangement for the next 12 months or so
    - followed by the disproportionate number of nationalist anti-Russian Svoboda members to ministerial positions
    - anti-Russian actions like the blowing up of Kutuzov monument (a Svoboda desire) and a proposed move to further limit Russian language use.

    Like it or not, pro-Russian sentiment exists within the territory that comprised the Ukrainian SSR.

    There's absolutely no evidence whatsoever to contradict that the majority of the Donbass rebels are indigenous to the territory of the former Ukrainian SSR. This includes the overall makeup of the Donbass leadership. BTW, it's not like the Kiev regime hasn't included some foreign support.

    During the American Revolution, the colonists opposed to Britain had the considerable help of the French as well as some other foreigners. In turn, the Brits employed Hessians and even sought the use of Cossacks. BTW, there were many colonists opposed to independence from Britain who fought on the British side.

    Concerning Donbass, whatever polling has been done, indicates a murkiness along the lines of not being gung ho on joining Russia, while not actively opposing such if it happened, along with opposing the Kiev regime. This very scenario has led some to second guess the Kremlin for not being as assertive as it arguably could've and should've been.

    People the world over prefer a winning attitude. If such is lacking, the enthusiasm is understandably lower.

    There’s absolutely no evidence whatsoever to contradict that the majority of the Donbass rebels are indigenous to the territory of the former Ukrainian SSR. This includes the overall makeup of the Donbass leadership.

    I’m not sure how large the insurgent army was at its height, but Alexander Zakharchenko, the second self proclaimed preident of the DNR is on record stating:

    He said 3-4,000 Russians had joined the rebel ranks during the fighting and some had been killed. “Moreover, many soldiers are coming to us from Russia who prefer to spend their holidays not on the beach but shoulder-to-shoulder with their brothers, fighting for the freedom of Donbass,” he said.

    It’s also well known that many Chechens and Asians from the East and other soldiers of fortune were employed by the insurgents and helped swell their ranks.

    *Aleksander Borodai, the first ‘president of the DNR was a Russian.

    *Igor Girkin, a prominent commander was also a Russian.

    *Andrei Antyufeyev, a prominent politician within the DNR, also a Russian.

    *Igor Bezler, a commander, born in Crimea, held Russian citizenship.

    *Igor Gubarev, a self styled ‘governor’ certaainly has a Russian sounding name.

    Etc; etc;

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-27211501

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  179. AaronB says:
    @Talha

    It is for the same reason that these ulemas “study” the religion — because they are too stupid to do anything else.
     
    No - plenty of them are quite intelligent, they just decide to study the religion because it’s still something we consider important.

    When they decide to go into secular studies, they do just fine. This is one of my first teachers in Arabic; a credentialed Islamic scholar and doctor (who I recently attended a pre-Ramadan prep course with):
    “In 2006, he received degrees in both Shari’ah studies and Medicine. From 2007 to 2013, Shaykh Omar completed his medical residency in Anatomic and Clinical Pathology and fellowships in Hematopathology and Molecular Genetic Pathology at Washington University in St. Louis. During this time, he was also received formal authorization in the Islamic science of spiritual purification. Shaykh Omar is currently a staff physician at the Moffitt Cancer Center and an Assistant Professor of Oncological Sciences at the University of South Florida in Tampa where he resides.”
    http://pureway.org/shaykh-omar/


    But of course you are going to tell me that this sub-human piece of trash was not a real muslim
     
    No, he was a Muslim, but he was an extremist - you know you gotta kind of earn that label and passing out cookies and ice cream doesn’t do it. Extremists kill other Muslims with a passion, in far more numbers than non-Muslims, so why would they treat you guys nicely? Now if you think Islamic doctrine supports that, by all means - bring statements from our scholars or institutions that say killing innocents in Paris by going stab-happy is sanctioned by sacred law.

    which seems rather oxymoronic to me
     
    Sure but you have admitted you are fairly ignorant on the subject and don’t feel like studying it further. The fact that you would call Sufis a sect puts a further nail on that coffin. I mean it’s fine, call it and opine whatever - just don’t expect us to take it seriously.

    Europe is only capable of producing spiritually empty people like French Basque these days – all you have to do is smile and wait, Europe will fall into your hands like a ripe fruit. Or perhaps an overripe, rotten fruit.

    I was going to say you are probably chuckling inside, but I know you are not a malicious person, so you’re probably feeling more pity than anything else.

    I am willing to go out on a limb and guess that our good French Basque is over 50 years old – the hopeless generation of older Europeans, products of the nadir of European culture, that we must sadly write off. In a sad kind of way it’s amusing to hear them talk about “intelligence” and “technology”, bewildered that their countries are slipping away from them.

    As new generations of Europeans arise, and glimmers of spiritual health begin appearing, I am curious as to what direction they will take.

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    • Replies: @French Basque

    guess that our good French Basque is over 50 years old
     
    Really not quite, fellow, not quite. You're quite off the mark here. In addition I probably have several more children than you do and we are not "spiritually empty".

    It is only that our religion is one that produces, you know, a civilized society, as opposed to shitholes like the ones that range all the way from Morocco to Pakistan.
    , @Talha
    I take no pleasure in the path of self-destruction many Europeans have decided to embark upon. I hope it is not too late to turn things around though. I do feel and hope, like you, that something better will emerge from the ashes. How it manifests itself is up for grabs.

    For now, people like myself are observing and learning from the mistakes of the West. They did not listen to the warnings of their elders...

    “Without a firm idea of what he lives for, man will not consent to live and will sooner destroy himself than remain on earth, even if there is bread all around him.” — Dostoevsky

    We will, inshaAllah, not make the same mistake.

    Peace.
    , @for-the-record
    As new generations of Europeans arise, and glimmers of spiritual health begin appearing, I am curious as to what direction they will take.

    Can you please point me to the glimmers of spiritual health that are beginning to arise among the new generation of Europeans (who to an increasing extent, of course, would not have been called European in the not-too-distant past)?

    Speaking of which, I am sure that everyone tonight has been riveted to their TV or smart phones watching that apotheosis of modern, and youthful, European civilization, Eurovision. Let me extend my sincerest congratulations to Greasy and Dmitry on the stunning victory of their favorite country. ("Pudeur" precludes me from asking Greasy if he would bang.)

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=6&v=84LBjXaeKk4
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  180. Mr. Hack says:
    @Mikhail

    Without initial Russian inspiration (read: Putin’s knowledge and approval of) there would not have been a Donbas war. Outsiders (Russians, Chechens etc;) were initially flooded into the region to start this maniacal war. Having unnecessarily riled up the area against the Kyivan center, going on four years now, Putin has decided to just let the place rot in the aftermath of heavy fighting, keeping the embers of war smoldering with a much smaller life support than initially given. You cannot dispute that if the support for Russia had been nearly as high in Donbas as it was in the Crimea, there would be no war still going on today, and the Donbas would at least be some sort of ‘autonomous’ Russian protectorate. It was a poorly designed operation doomed for failure from the very start. Looks like this first test case of the Triune theory (in an area of mixed Russian/Ukrainian citizenry) has failed miserably!
     
    The situation in Donbass was the result of the way the coup in Kiev went off. Specifically:

    - overthrowing a democratically elected prez, who just signed an internationally brokered power sharing arrangement for the next 12 months or so
    - followed by the disproportionate number of nationalist anti-Russian Svoboda members to ministerial positions
    - anti-Russian actions like the blowing up of Kutuzov monument (a Svoboda desire) and a proposed move to further limit Russian language use.

    Like it or not, pro-Russian sentiment exists within the territory that comprised the Ukrainian SSR.

    There's absolutely no evidence whatsoever to contradict that the majority of the Donbass rebels are indigenous to the territory of the former Ukrainian SSR. This includes the overall makeup of the Donbass leadership. BTW, it's not like the Kiev regime hasn't included some foreign support.

    During the American Revolution, the colonists opposed to Britain had the considerable help of the French as well as some other foreigners. In turn, the Brits employed Hessians and even sought the use of Cossacks. BTW, there were many colonists opposed to independence from Britain who fought on the British side.

    Concerning Donbass, whatever polling has been done, indicates a murkiness along the lines of not being gung ho on joining Russia, while not actively opposing such if it happened, along with opposing the Kiev regime. This very scenario has led some to second guess the Kremlin for not being as assertive as it arguably could've and should've been.

    People the world over prefer a winning attitude. If such is lacking, the enthusiasm is understandably lower.

    There’s absolutely no evidence whatsoever to contradict that the majority of the Donbass rebels are indigenous to the territory of the former Ukrainian SSR. This includes the overall makeup of the Donbass leadership.

    I’m not sure how large the insurgent army was at its height, but Alexander Zakharchenko, the second self proclaimed preident of the DNR is on record stating:

    He said 3-4,000 Russians had joined the rebel ranks during the fighting and some had been killed. “Moreover, many soldiers are coming to us from Russia who prefer to spend their holidays not on the beach but shoulder-to-shoulder with their brothers, fighting for the freedom of Donbass,” he said.

    It’s also well known that many Chechens and Asians from the East and other soldiers of fortune were employed by the insurgents and helped swell their ranks.

    *Aleksander Borodai, the first ‘president of the DNR was a Russian.

    *Igor Girkin, a prominent commander was also a Russian.

    *Andrei Antyufeyev, a prominent politician within the DNR, also a Russian.

    *Igor Bezler, a commander, born in Crimea, held Russian citizenship.

    *Igor Gubarev, a self styled ‘governor’ certainly has a Russian sounding name.

    Etc; etc;

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-27211501

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    No denying that there has been assistance from Russia and elsewhere for the Donbass rebels. However, it's not as great as some suggest. From an at times snooty (phony, crony, baloney) and rather hypocritical (but in a number of instances) good source

    https://irrussianality.wordpress.com/2016/09/14/origins-of-the-war-in-donbass/


    I thoroughly recommend the latest podcast on Sean’s Russia Blog, in which Sean Guillory interviews Baylor University professor Serhiy Kudelia about the origins of the war in Donbass. You can listen to it here. For those of you who don’t have the spare time to listen to the whole thing, here are some key points.

    Many local officials helped the separatists in the early stages of the uprising, including helping to organize the referendums in Donetsk and Lugansk provinces in May 2014. In ‘the absence of the state’, which had collapsed following the change of power in Kiev, they were ‘hedging their bets’, but nobody was telling them what to do, Kudelia says. On the basis of research he conducted in Donbass, he comments that ‘There was clearly no hierarchical subordination to any elite actor at the very top. And a lot of the decisions that were taken by local officials were taken on their own.’
    ‘Strelkov was not an agent of the [Russian] state’, in Kudelia’s opinion. He and other Russians who came to Ukraine were ‘private individuals’ acting on their own initiative.
    The recently released tapes of Sergei Glazyev’s telephone conversations with anti-Maidan activists are ‘not very convincing’, in the sense of not proving that the anti-Maidan movement was being run by the Russian government. There is an ‘absence of a smoking gun in these tapes’. Glazyev is recorded speaking with activists in Odessa, Kharkov, and Zaporozhye, but not in Donbass. Furthermore, the conversations suggest that the activists were not in contact with any representatives of the Russian government in Ukraine. That in turn suggests that the anti-Maidan movement was not being controlled by members of the Russian intelligence services operating within Ukraine, as the Ukrainian government claimed.
    ‘A careless attitude of the Ukrainian government towards the use of indiscriminate force against the separatists … hardened grievances … and a sense of the illegitimacy of the Kiev government’, and so strengthened the rebellion.
    Kudelia argues that the war in Donbass meets the definition of a civil war. In August 2014, it became an ‘internationalized civil war’. But even after that it remained essentially about internal Ukrainian affairs.

    Towards the end of the interview, Kudelia remarks that a correct understanding of the origins of the war is essential to resolving it. If the Kiev government is right, and the war was primarily the result of Russian aggression, then the solution lies in pressuring Russia. If, however, the war was mainly a product of local grievances, then the solution must involve addressing those grievances. That in turn requires Kiev to take the rebels’ demands seriously and negotiate with them.

    Regular readers of this blog will not be surprised to learn that I found Kudelia’s analysis most convincing. I would have liked Guillory to ask him a few more questions concerning the role of Western states in the conflict. To what extent has the West’s focus on Russia encouraged the Ukrainian government’s misinterpretation of the war as being primarily caused by Russia rather than internal grievances? And to what extent, therefore, must the West share some of the blame for what has happened?
     

    Maybe not such an either-or situation (Russian inspired or legit regional gripe) as presented. Rather, a combo of two.

    Somewhat reminded of the Vietnam War. Some would say the VC were just puppets of North Vietnam. The reality was that the VC had considerable support within South Vietnam. Hence, the VC and North Vietnam were simultaneous realities.

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  181. Bliss says:
    @German_reader

    To call the Israelis greedy for land is obscenely unfair
     
    By historical standards that's certainly true, but I think you understood what I meant. I just haven't seen any convincing explanation how Israel's ongoing settlements policy is going to end well...is Israel going to expel the Palestinians in those areas, grant them equal rights or permanently keep them in subordinate status? None of those options seem desirable to me.

    By historical standards that’s certainly true, but I think you understood what I meant.

    The euro land grab is not just historical, it is current. I am sure you must know that. For example, Russia is still occupying Siberia which is well over two thousand times the size of the West Bank.

    By recent historical standards the Jews haven’t behaved nearly as badly towards the Palestinians as you Germans have behaved towards Slavs, Gypsies, Jews, Africans. Or as Ukrainians behaved towards the Poles. Or as Arabs behaved towards Kurds. Or as Turks behaved towards Armenians. And so on…

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    • Replies: @German_reader

    For example, Russia is still occupying Siberia which is well over two thousand times the size of the West Bank.
     
    Are you expecting that Russia should give Siberia back to native groups or what is the relevance of this?

    By recent historical standards the Jews haven’t behaved nearly as badly towards the Palestinians as you Germans have behaved towards Slavs, Gypsies, Jews, Africans
     
    That's true, but maybe you have noticed that afterwards Germany was quite a bit smaller than before.

    Or as Arabs behaved towards Kurds. Or as Turks behaved towards Armenians.
     
    One doesn't really expect anything different from Arabs or Turks. The difference with Israel is that it's presented as a Western-style democracy (the only one in the Mideast), deserving of Western support because of that, so standards are different.
    It's of course true that by world historical standards, or indeed compared to many other regions even today, Israel's misdeeds are pretty trivial, but I don't think I've denied that. Netanyahu's foreign policy machinations are probably quite dangerous though.
    , @Dmitry
    Russia is not 'occupying Siberia'.

    About the tiny geographic size of Israel, I would agree. It is almost too small or too narrow sometimes to call a real country in some areas.

    I was driving all over Israel a couple of months ago - and I remember driving around the area near Hadera power station (we were looking for specific river where you can see turtles there), suddenly realizing the whole country is a narrow strip of fields from the sea to the West Bank.

    Also a lot of times you think 'that's nice hill over there', and look on GPS on your phone and realize it is Arab lands in the West Bank.

    It actually feels like a 'defying gravity', that the country is defendable at all, especially when you pass through all the Arab towns inside these already small borders, and have so many Arabs everywhere on the streets.

    My view on Israel, even as a moderate politically, is that if they don't become radically less liberal in the future, they will have trouble surviving.

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  182. songbird says:
    @French Basque
    Yes, and in fact the Oran massacre is only the tip of the iceberg.

    The father of friend, now deceased, was a young (commissioned) officer who served during the war in Algérie in a commando de chasse, those units who were instrumental in militarily defeating the FLN (again, we have to remember that de Gaulle gave independence to those would had actually been militarily defeated). A few years before he died I spent almost one afternoon speaking with this man about that war. He told me in particular of one occasion when they raided (too late alas) a village where a group of European civilian hostages had been brought by a group of fellaghas after having been abducted from a Pied-Noir settlement. I don't event want to write here what he told me, that would be obscene, but suffice it to say that what he saw, especially what these animals had done to the women, was an absolute abomination. This rugged man, in his 70s at the time, and almost 50 years after the fact, was still visibly traumatized by what he saw. What surprises me the most is how he, and his fellow junior officers, managed to prevent their men from killing off the entire Arab village in retaliation. Placed in the same situation, I am certain that I would not have exercised such restraint.

    I wonder how much press any of this sort of thing got in France at the time.

    I know I have certainly heard some very hair-raising tales, and it really surprises me that people fleeing for their lives were allowed to be followed in such numbers by the people who had made them flee for their lives.

    Amazing how many French support open borders today. I can only blame it on ignorance.

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    • Replies: @French Basque

    I wonder how much press any of this sort of thing got in France at the time.
     
    Almost none. The Gaullist regime had complete control over the radio and TV media (through ORTF), and most of the written press was controlled either by Gaullist conglomerates or was under socialist or communist control. The causes of this situation are to be found in the 1944-46 "Épuration".

    it really surprises me that people fleeing for their lives were allowed to be followed in such numbers by the people who had made them flee for their lives.
     
    Indeed. At first it was said that those immigrants who started to flock along our shores immediately after Algeria became independent were going to be just "guest workers". Until the Giscard administration in 1974 open the gates to "family regrouping". The rest is history.

    Amazing how many French support open borders today. I can only blame it on ignorance.
     
    Ignorance, massive propaganda, virtue-signaling, it's a mixed-bag of many causes. In addition we have to remember that we are since 1945 under the yoke of Jewish cabal.

    Not to be discounted also is the general cuckoldry of the Catholic hierarchy and of the older laity (Vatican-II reformist types, generally older people now). Traditionalist Catholicism on the other hand, albeit small in numbers, is the only one that produces religious vocations and large families -- which are not exactly in favor of open borders.

    The youth is very promising however. I can see it in those of my kids and their friends who are old enough to engage in political movements. They do not even like the Front National which is too Jacobin and not respectful enough of local identities like ours. What appeals to the youth, especially of the regions with a strong local identity (Alsace, Savoie, Provence, Corsica, Nice, Basque Country) is Identitarian movements.
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  183. I don’t know why you people are arguing with Talha or even consider him interesting and worth reading. I don’t mean this in a way to disparage Talha, who seems like a perfectly nice fellow and must have considerable patience to engage with the alt-right.

    Mohammedans are our enemies and what they believe is completely irrelevant. They need to be excluded from our lands, and one can further muse about destroying them completely. I personally entertain the fantasy that nuking Mecca will result in all Mohammedans simply slumping over, like the Zerg in StarCraft after you destroy the Overmind.

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    • Replies: @German_reader

    I personally entertain the fantasy that nuking Mecca will result in all Mohammedans simply slumping over, like the Zerg in StarCraft after you destroy the Overmind.
     
    iirc the Overmind was only in the first game though, and afterwards the Zerg were even worse, so that analogy isn't exactly encouraging. Probably better not to go for civilizational war against the entire world of Islam which could only end badly. Islamic immigration needs to be stopped completely though.
    , @Talha

    Mohammedans are our enemies and what they believe is completely irrelevant. They need to be excluded from our lands, and
     
    This is fine - make it happen by coming up with a public forum to get the ball rolling. I came up with a game plan for you guys on previous threads:
    "If you feel strongly about this, I suggest getting with your congressmen/senators and proposing legislation to add amendments to the Constitution to make exceptions to the religion-neutral clauses to make exceptions for Islam and Muslims. A super-majority will likely be required. A good strategy would be to come up with a strong single-issue advocacy group. Once this initial step is accomplished, the doors will be open legally for; 1) stripping Muslims of citizenship, 2) excluding them from certain areas of influence, 3) consigning and forcing them into certain regions/areas/locales or 4) expelling them to Muslim lands (with or without compensation).

    Come up with a single-issue organization that votes as a bloc on only one thing; legal relocation of Muslims from the West – forget abortion, foreign policy, economic trade pacts, welfare, etc. Make every representative know they will be graded and publicly made known. I would suggest working with the NRA (the preeminent one-issue group) to get tips on how to proceed – you will likely have a good amount of overlap:

    https://www.nrapvf.org/grades/

    When I receive my official Federal notice in the mail that I am no longer considered a citizen and have a certain number of days to leave; I will start getting my finances in gear, sell my property, etc. because I am obligated by the sacred law to obey the legal canon of my host country."


    one can further muse about destroying them completely.
     
    That's fine too - yo come getcha some boy! Just don't be a wuss about it and send others like a neocon pansy. Don't be a coward and be willing to go there yourself. Maybe if your plan of expulsion works out, me and my sons will meet up with you on the beach.
    , @French Basque
    At the personal level the guy might be a nice fellow indeed. This is why it is tempting to appeal to his character and intelligence, he might recant the disastrous ideology that is poisoning his mind.

    When looking at the problem posed to the existence of humanity by African demographics and islamic growth, the conflict between Russians and Ukrainians appears even more tragic. I sincerely hope these guys will find some sort of arrangement like we were able to find in Western Europe between formerly extremely inimical neighbors. We will not be too many Europeans to prevent the African hordes from eating everything nice we have ever produced, then eating us, and then eating each other until the final extinction of all forms of life on this planet.
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  184. @Talha

    It is for the same reason that these ulemas “study” the religion — because they are too stupid to do anything else.
     
    No - plenty of them are quite intelligent, they just decide to study the religion because it’s still something we consider important.

    When they decide to go into secular studies, they do just fine. This is one of my first teachers in Arabic; a credentialed Islamic scholar and doctor (who I recently attended a pre-Ramadan prep course with):
    “In 2006, he received degrees in both Shari’ah studies and Medicine. From 2007 to 2013, Shaykh Omar completed his medical residency in Anatomic and Clinical Pathology and fellowships in Hematopathology and Molecular Genetic Pathology at Washington University in St. Louis. During this time, he was also received formal authorization in the Islamic science of spiritual purification. Shaykh Omar is currently a staff physician at the Moffitt Cancer Center and an Assistant Professor of Oncological Sciences at the University of South Florida in Tampa where he resides.”
    http://pureway.org/shaykh-omar/


    But of course you are going to tell me that this sub-human piece of trash was not a real muslim
     
    No, he was a Muslim, but he was an extremist - you know you gotta kind of earn that label and passing out cookies and ice cream doesn’t do it. Extremists kill other Muslims with a passion, in far more numbers than non-Muslims, so why would they treat you guys nicely? Now if you think Islamic doctrine supports that, by all means - bring statements from our scholars or institutions that say killing innocents in Paris by going stab-happy is sanctioned by sacred law.

    which seems rather oxymoronic to me
     
    Sure but you have admitted you are fairly ignorant on the subject and don’t feel like studying it further. The fact that you would call Sufis a sect puts a further nail on that coffin. I mean it’s fine, call it and opine whatever - just don’t expect us to take it seriously.

    It’s fairly obvious we haven’t been sending you our best for a while,

    The ones we got appear to be the smartest ones, at least from the limited studies that seem to indicate that second or third generation Arabs living here have slightly higher IQs than the national averages of their countries of origin. Not that it is still sufficient to make them anything else than a drag on the countries of destination, but still, that is to be acknowledged.

    but why are you guys accepting them? I thought you guys were intelligent; what gives?

    I for one am not accepting them, and in fact in the case of France (but also of all other European countries), opinion polls demonstrate a majority of the population saying that there are too many of them. Where there is a diversity of opinion is what “too many” means exactly, and what to do with those “too many”. In my case I think that “too many” means “all of them”, and regarding the solution I think something akin to Spain 1492 second edition is a good option. In addition I think the islamic religion should be entirely banned from here, and therefore the White converts would be given the choice to either apostasize publicly (but still be sent to the Kerguelen Archipelago ad perpetuam just to be safe) or to not recant their conversion and be sent to Adélie Land instead.

    You can complain about your multi-culti types just like I can complain about our extremists,

    Yes but at least our multi-culti types don’t wander around the streets of Algiers randomly stabbing people. Plus their are mostly boomers and dying off, the White youth here overwhelmingly supports the Front National or formations further to the Right, which is highly encouraging.

    but at least we’re inbred retards so it’s surprising that extremism isn’t more widespread…but what’s your excuse?

    You may be surprised but I am going to tell you that, in my opinion and based on my observation of the local muslim populace, the Salafi/extremist/terrorist ones appears to be made of the least stupid amongst them — at the very least, the less apathetic. The other ones just seem content to live off the welfare system and smoke the chicha in their filthy “kebab” outlets. Life is quite good around here for these losers.

    Sure but you have admitted you are fairly ignorant on the subject and don’t feel like studying it further.

    I amply study it indeed, but not by reading the dull islamic prose, but from a socio-ethnological angle: I just observe the life and works of the adherents to that religion. By the fruits you shall know the tree, you know? So I am just observing.

    On the other hand the buddhist yellow people who have settled around here, and there a quite a few of them, ten to be nice, industrious, respectful, their kids don’t sell drugs nor rape the local girls, are polite, etc. The difference in outcomes is self-evident. I don’t need to know sh!t about the theoretical foundations of buddhism to figure this out.

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    slightly higher IQs than the national averages of their countries of origin
     
    OK - what does average IQ have to do with it? Have you never heard of tails on a curve? Why didn't you test for a minimum IQ before letting them in? This is a poor excuse, intelligent people wouldn't hide behind this level of incompetence.

    In addition I think the islamic religion should be entirely banned from here, and therefore the White converts would be given the choice to either apostasize publicly (but still be sent to the Kerguelen Archipelago ad perpetuam just to be safe) or to not recant their conversion and be sent to Adélie Land instead.
     
    Totally support you turning France back into a Christian land and bringing apostasy and blasphemy laws. I'm pretty tired of the virtue signalling to be honest.

    Let's make it happen folks!


    Salafi/extremist/terrorist ones appears to be made of the least stupid amongst them
     
    AaronB, you taking notes? More evidence that High-IQ might be dysgenic.

    Life is quite good around here for these losers.
     
    So you import low-IQ population and then support their laziness with a generous welfare system. More incompetence...this is not looking good for you, bro. These policies seem pretty...ahem...stupid - and I'm being generous here.

    I amply study it indeed, but not by reading the dull islamic prose, but from a socio-ethnological angle:
     
    Got it, when it comes to Islam - your authority is "muh feelz" discourse. Not surprising really.

    On the other hand the buddhist yellow people who have settled around here
     
    Buyer's remorse...boy I bet you wish you could turn back the clock on and swap on that one eh? You guys were all up in IndoChina, you were up close and personal with them - so why didn't you import a bunch of those guys? Again, seems fairly stupid to me.
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  185. @AaronB
    Europe is only capable of producing spiritually empty people like French Basque these days - all you have to do is smile and wait, Europe will fall into your hands like a ripe fruit. Or perhaps an overripe, rotten fruit.

    I was going to say you are probably chuckling inside, but I know you are not a malicious person, so you're probably feeling more pity than anything else.

    I am willing to go out on a limb and guess that our good French Basque is over 50 years old - the hopeless generation of older Europeans, products of the nadir of European culture, that we must sadly write off. In a sad kind of way it's amusing to hear them talk about "intelligence" and "technology", bewildered that their countries are slipping away from them.

    As new generations of Europeans arise, and glimmers of spiritual health begin appearing, I am curious as to what direction they will take.

    guess that our good French Basque is over 50 years old

    Really not quite, fellow, not quite. You’re quite off the mark here. In addition I probably have several more children than you do and we are not “spiritually empty”.

    It is only that our religion is one that produces, you know, a civilized society, as opposed to shitholes like the ones that range all the way from Morocco to Pakistan.

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    • Replies: @AaronB
    Ha ha ha, you don't seem very civilized to me. All the beauty and glories of European civilization were created by people very different than you - you're just living on rapidly disappearing inherited capital.

    Admit it, you're over 50 :) And let me guess, you're irreligious, and a materialist, and think the crowning glories of European civilization are a functioning subway system, indoor plumbing, and theoretical physics.

    If Europe continues to produce people like you, Talha's compatriots will have rather an easy job of it.
    , @Jayce
    There's a kind of dumbed down version of perennialism that seems unfortunately far too common in some parts of the dissident right. There are very fine distinctions to be made between tradition and plain backwardsness, between illiberal alternatives and totalitarianism. Not all old things are necessarily good just because they're old, and certainly not all strands of religious thought were created equal. It's a real false equivalency of the worst kind to assume that wanting Europeans to take Christianity more seriously must go hand-in-hand with developing a weird fetish for Islam.
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  186. @Bliss

    By historical standards that’s certainly true, but I think you understood what I meant.
     
    The euro land grab is not just historical, it is current. I am sure you must know that. For example, Russia is still occupying Siberia which is well over two thousand times the size of the West Bank.

    By recent historical standards the Jews haven’t behaved nearly as badly towards the Palestinians as you Germans have behaved towards Slavs, Gypsies, Jews, Africans. Or as Ukrainians behaved towards the Poles. Or as Arabs behaved towards Kurds. Or as Turks behaved towards Armenians. And so on...

    For example, Russia is still occupying Siberia which is well over two thousand times the size of the West Bank.

    Are you expecting that Russia should give Siberia back to native groups or what is the relevance of this?

    By recent historical standards the Jews haven’t behaved nearly as badly towards the Palestinians as you Germans have behaved towards Slavs, Gypsies, Jews, Africans

    That’s true, but maybe you have noticed that afterwards Germany was quite a bit smaller than before.

    Or as Arabs behaved towards Kurds. Or as Turks behaved towards Armenians.

    One doesn’t really expect anything different from Arabs or Turks. The difference with Israel is that it’s presented as a Western-style democracy (the only one in the Mideast), deserving of Western support because of that, so standards are different.
    It’s of course true that by world historical standards, or indeed compared to many other regions even today, Israel’s misdeeds are pretty trivial, but I don’t think I’ve denied that. Netanyahu’s foreign policy machinations are probably quite dangerous though.

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    • Replies: @Bliss

    One doesn’t really expect anything different from Arabs or Turks.
     
    Give it a rest pal. You aren’t all that. The Arabs and Turks never behaved as badly as you Germans did.

    It’s of course true that by world historical standards, or indeed compared to many other regions even today, Israel’s misdeeds are pretty trivial
     
    Exactly.

    As for Siberia only God knows what the future holds. But it seems probable that it will eventually fall into China’s hands. Russia’s shrinkage is not over yet.
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  187. Talha says:
    @AaronB
    Europe is only capable of producing spiritually empty people like French Basque these days - all you have to do is smile and wait, Europe will fall into your hands like a ripe fruit. Or perhaps an overripe, rotten fruit.

    I was going to say you are probably chuckling inside, but I know you are not a malicious person, so you're probably feeling more pity than anything else.

    I am willing to go out on a limb and guess that our good French Basque is over 50 years old - the hopeless generation of older Europeans, products of the nadir of European culture, that we must sadly write off. In a sad kind of way it's amusing to hear them talk about "intelligence" and "technology", bewildered that their countries are slipping away from them.

    As new generations of Europeans arise, and glimmers of spiritual health begin appearing, I am curious as to what direction they will take.

    I take no pleasure in the path of self-destruction many Europeans have decided to embark upon. I hope it is not too late to turn things around though. I do feel and hope, like you, that something better will emerge from the ashes. How it manifests itself is up for grabs.

    For now, people like myself are observing and learning from the mistakes of the West. They did not listen to the warnings of their elders…

    “Without a firm idea of what he lives for, man will not consent to live and will sooner destroy himself than remain on earth, even if there is bread all around him.” — Dostoevsky

    We will, inshaAllah, not make the same mistake.

    Peace.

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    • Replies: @AaronB
    I know you take no pleasure in it - and I appreciate that. It's a testament to the spiritual superiority of your civilization, at the moment.

    If Europe finds itself again, then a Christian Europe can live respectfully and at peace with the Muslim world.

    I've sadly concluded that turning things around means waiting for the younger generation - the older generation cannot change its ways.

    You are wise to observe us and learn from our mistakes - do not exchange a meaningful life for theoretical physics. As you can see, you will end up losing both.
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  188. Dmitry says:
    @Bliss

    By historical standards that’s certainly true, but I think you understood what I meant.
     
    The euro land grab is not just historical, it is current. I am sure you must know that. For example, Russia is still occupying Siberia which is well over two thousand times the size of the West Bank.

    By recent historical standards the Jews haven’t behaved nearly as badly towards the Palestinians as you Germans have behaved towards Slavs, Gypsies, Jews, Africans. Or as Ukrainians behaved towards the Poles. Or as Arabs behaved towards Kurds. Or as Turks behaved towards Armenians. And so on...

    Russia is not ‘occupying Siberia’.

    About the tiny geographic size of Israel, I would agree. It is almost too small or too narrow sometimes to call a real country in some areas.

    I was driving all over Israel a couple of months ago – and I remember driving around the area near Hadera power station (we were looking for specific river where you can see turtles there), suddenly realizing the whole country is a narrow strip of fields from the sea to the West Bank.

    Also a lot of times you think ‘that’s nice hill over there’, and look on GPS on your phone and realize it is Arab lands in the West Bank.

    It actually feels like a ‘defying gravity’, that the country is defendable at all, especially when you pass through all the Arab towns inside these already small borders, and have so many Arabs everywhere on the streets.

    My view on Israel, even as a moderate politically, is that if they don’t become radically less liberal in the future, they will have trouble surviving.

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  189. @songbird
    I wonder how much press any of this sort of thing got in France at the time.

    I know I have certainly heard some very hair-raising tales, and it really surprises me that people fleeing for their lives were allowed to be followed in such numbers by the people who had made them flee for their lives.

    Amazing how many French support open borders today. I can only blame it on ignorance.

    I wonder how much press any of this sort of thing got in France at the time.

    Almost none. The Gaullist regime had complete control over the radio and TV media (through ORTF), and most of the written press was controlled either by Gaullist conglomerates or was under socialist or communist control. The causes of this situation are to be found in the 1944-46 “Épuration”.

    it really surprises me that people fleeing for their lives were allowed to be followed in such numbers by the people who had made them flee for their lives.

    Indeed. At first it was said that those immigrants who started to flock along our shores immediately after Algeria became independent were going to be just “guest workers”. Until the Giscard administration in 1974 open the gates to “family regrouping”. The rest is history.

    Amazing how many French support open borders today. I can only blame it on ignorance.

    Ignorance, massive propaganda, virtue-signaling, it’s a mixed-bag of many causes. In addition we have to remember that we are since 1945 under the yoke of Jewish cabal.

    Not to be discounted also is the general cuckoldry of the Catholic hierarchy and of the older laity (Vatican-II reformist types, generally older people now). Traditionalist Catholicism on the other hand, albeit small in numbers, is the only one that produces religious vocations and large families — which are not exactly in favor of open borders.

    The youth is very promising however. I can see it in those of my kids and their friends who are old enough to engage in political movements. They do not even like the Front National which is too Jacobin and not respectful enough of local identities like ours. What appeals to the youth, especially of the regions with a strong local identity (Alsace, Savoie, Provence, Corsica, Nice, Basque Country) is Identitarian movements.

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  190. AaronB says:
    @French Basque

    guess that our good French Basque is over 50 years old
     
    Really not quite, fellow, not quite. You're quite off the mark here. In addition I probably have several more children than you do and we are not "spiritually empty".

    It is only that our religion is one that produces, you know, a civilized society, as opposed to shitholes like the ones that range all the way from Morocco to Pakistan.

    Ha ha ha, you don’t seem very civilized to me. All the beauty and glories of European civilization were created by people very different than you – you’re just living on rapidly disappearing inherited capital.

    Admit it, you’re over 50 :) And let me guess, you’re irreligious, and a materialist, and think the crowning glories of European civilization are a functioning subway system, indoor plumbing, and theoretical physics.

    If Europe continues to produce people like you, Talha’s compatriots will have rather an easy job of it.

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    • Replies: @AP
    You are not very good at figuring people out, are you?
    , @French Basque
    Poor sap. In an earlier post I gave away the birthdate of my wife's mother in the context of the exodus of the Pied-Noirs in 1962. Look it up. If you can subtract two integer numbers you might be able to get a decent estimate of my age. I also had an earlier discussion with Thorfinnson about Puritanism and Catholicism. So much for the atheist. You must be either of limited intellect, or of limited attention span.
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  191. AP says:
    @AaronB
    Ha ha ha, you don't seem very civilized to me. All the beauty and glories of European civilization were created by people very different than you - you're just living on rapidly disappearing inherited capital.

    Admit it, you're over 50 :) And let me guess, you're irreligious, and a materialist, and think the crowning glories of European civilization are a functioning subway system, indoor plumbing, and theoretical physics.

    If Europe continues to produce people like you, Talha's compatriots will have rather an easy job of it.

    You are not very good at figuring people out, are you?

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  192. @AaronB
    Europe is only capable of producing spiritually empty people like French Basque these days - all you have to do is smile and wait, Europe will fall into your hands like a ripe fruit. Or perhaps an overripe, rotten fruit.

    I was going to say you are probably chuckling inside, but I know you are not a malicious person, so you're probably feeling more pity than anything else.

    I am willing to go out on a limb and guess that our good French Basque is over 50 years old - the hopeless generation of older Europeans, products of the nadir of European culture, that we must sadly write off. In a sad kind of way it's amusing to hear them talk about "intelligence" and "technology", bewildered that their countries are slipping away from them.

    As new generations of Europeans arise, and glimmers of spiritual health begin appearing, I am curious as to what direction they will take.

    As new generations of Europeans arise, and glimmers of spiritual health begin appearing, I am curious as to what direction they will take.

    Can you please point me to the glimmers of spiritual health that are beginning to arise among the new generation of Europeans (who to an increasing extent, of course, would not have been called European in the not-too-distant past)?

    Speaking of which, I am sure that everyone tonight has been riveted to their TV or smart phones watching that apotheosis of modern, and youthful, European civilization, Eurovision. Let me extend my sincerest congratulations to Greasy and Dmitry on the stunning victory of their favorite country. (“Pudeur” precludes me from asking Greasy if he would bang.)

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    • Replies: @AaronB
    The glimmers are there, you just have to search for them. For instance, materialists like Steve Sailer and John Derbyshire instinctively capitulate to whatever group happens to be in power, like all good materialists. But it is heartening to see the growing chorus of younger whites who question the legitimacy of our rulers.

    Even Thorfinson, on this thread, is rather remarkably showing glimmers of concern for establishing a brotherhood, showing he understands the emptiness of individualism.

    You're not over 50, are you Thorfinnson? Didn't think so.
    , @Greasy William
    I have nothing to do with secular Israel. Nothing.

    I have no quarrel with Europeans but a true Jewish state would not participate in such a competition. The young woman who won this competition sung some type of barbaric Moroccan song, not a Jewish song, as far as I know.

    The only positive thing about this is that is a huge fuck you to the Russophiles right after the Gaza massacres and bombing of Syria. Europeans just aren't that into Palestine/Lebanon/Syria/Iran.
    , @Dmitry
    She is going to be the Israeli version of Serduchka.

    Well done for Israel - they (TV show that chose her), had a good understanding of target audience and that she had a good chance to win. And they executed the plan and completely troll Europe.

    Russia is spending a lot of money to win this every year and using the best singers, and often almost winning and failing at the last minute. Remember the fiasco with Sergey Lazarev (despite the government deleting all his porn videos off the internet), which allowed Ukraine to troll the subsequent year.



    -

    By the way, before saying Eurovision is just for the gays. Let us remember Dima Bilan!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_LrXZbOAWQ
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  193. @Thorfinnsson
    I don't know why you people are arguing with Talha or even consider him interesting and worth reading. I don't mean this in a way to disparage Talha, who seems like a perfectly nice fellow and must have considerable patience to engage with the alt-right.

    Mohammedans are our enemies and what they believe is completely irrelevant. They need to be excluded from our lands, and one can further muse about destroying them completely. I personally entertain the fantasy that nuking Mecca will result in all Mohammedans simply slumping over, like the Zerg in StarCraft after you destroy the Overmind.

    I personally entertain the fantasy that nuking Mecca will result in all Mohammedans simply slumping over, like the Zerg in StarCraft after you destroy the Overmind.

    iirc the Overmind was only in the first game though, and afterwards the Zerg were even worse, so that analogy isn’t exactly encouraging. Probably better not to go for civilizational war against the entire world of Islam which could only end badly. Islamic immigration needs to be stopped completely though.

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  194. AaronB says:
    @Talha
    I take no pleasure in the path of self-destruction many Europeans have decided to embark upon. I hope it is not too late to turn things around though. I do feel and hope, like you, that something better will emerge from the ashes. How it manifests itself is up for grabs.

    For now, people like myself are observing and learning from the mistakes of the West. They did not listen to the warnings of their elders...

    “Without a firm idea of what he lives for, man will not consent to live and will sooner destroy himself than remain on earth, even if there is bread all around him.” — Dostoevsky

    We will, inshaAllah, not make the same mistake.

    Peace.

    I know you take no pleasure in it – and I appreciate that. It’s a testament to the spiritual superiority of your civilization, at the moment.

    If Europe finds itself again, then a Christian Europe can live respectfully and at peace with the Muslim world.

    I’ve sadly concluded that turning things around means waiting for the younger generation – the older generation cannot change its ways.

    You are wise to observe us and learn from our mistakes – do not exchange a meaningful life for theoretical physics. As you can see, you will end up losing both.

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    • Replies: @German_reader

    If Europe finds itself again, then a Christian Europe can live respectfully and at peace with the Muslim world.
     
    There wasn't that much peace or respect between Christendom and Islam for more than a 1000 years. I don't think Urban II could be accused of materialism or atheism.
    It's really strange how you think religion is some magical cure for everything. And then you don't even tell us which religion.
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  195. Talha says:
    @Thorfinnsson
    I don't know why you people are arguing with Talha or even consider him interesting and worth reading. I don't mean this in a way to disparage Talha, who seems like a perfectly nice fellow and must have considerable patience to engage with the alt-right.

    Mohammedans are our enemies and what they believe is completely irrelevant. They need to be excluded from our lands, and one can further muse about destroying them completely. I personally entertain the fantasy that nuking Mecca will result in all Mohammedans simply slumping over, like the Zerg in StarCraft after you destroy the Overmind.

    Mohammedans are our enemies and what they believe is completely irrelevant. They need to be excluded from our lands, and

    This is fine – make it happen by coming up with a public forum to get the ball rolling. I came up with a game plan for you guys on previous threads:
    “If you feel strongly about this, I suggest getting with your congressmen/senators and proposing legislation to add amendments to the Constitution to make exceptions to the religion-neutral clauses to make exceptions for Islam and Muslims. A super-majority will likely be required. A good strategy would be to come up with a strong single-issue advocacy group. Once this initial step is accomplished, the doors will be open legally for; 1) stripping Muslims of citizenship, 2) excluding them from certain areas of influence, 3) consigning and forcing them into certain regions/areas/locales or 4) expelling them to Muslim lands (with or without compensation).

    Come up with a single-issue organization that votes as a bloc on only one thing; legal relocation of Muslims from the West – forget abortion, foreign policy, economic trade pacts, welfare, etc. Make every representative know they will be graded and publicly made known. I would suggest working with the NRA (the preeminent one-issue group) to get tips on how to proceed – you will likely have a good amount of overlap:

    https://www.nrapvf.org/grades/

    When I receive my official Federal notice in the mail that I am no longer considered a citizen and have a certain number of days to leave; I will start getting my finances in gear, sell my property, etc. because I am obligated by the sacred law to obey the legal canon of my host country.”

    one can further muse about destroying them completely.

    That’s fine too – yo come getcha some boy! Just don’t be a wuss about it and send others like a neocon pansy. Don’t be a coward and be willing to go there yourself. Maybe if your plan of expulsion works out, me and my sons will meet up with you on the beach.

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  196. @Thorfinnsson
    I don't know why you people are arguing with Talha or even consider him interesting and worth reading. I don't mean this in a way to disparage Talha, who seems like a perfectly nice fellow and must have considerable patience to engage with the alt-right.

    Mohammedans are our enemies and what they believe is completely irrelevant. They need to be excluded from our lands, and one can further muse about destroying them completely. I personally entertain the fantasy that nuking Mecca will result in all Mohammedans simply slumping over, like the Zerg in StarCraft after you destroy the Overmind.

    At the personal level the guy might be a nice fellow indeed. This is why it is tempting to appeal to his character and intelligence, he might recant the disastrous ideology that is poisoning his mind.

    When looking at the problem posed to the existence of humanity by African demographics and islamic growth, the conflict between Russians and Ukrainians appears even more tragic. I sincerely hope these guys will find some sort of arrangement like we were able to find in Western Europe between formerly extremely inimical neighbors. We will not be too many Europeans to prevent the African hordes from eating everything nice we have ever produced, then eating us, and then eating each other until the final extinction of all forms of life on this planet.

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  197. @AaronB
    Ha ha ha, you don't seem very civilized to me. All the beauty and glories of European civilization were created by people very different than you - you're just living on rapidly disappearing inherited capital.

    Admit it, you're over 50 :) And let me guess, you're irreligious, and a materialist, and think the crowning glories of European civilization are a functioning subway system, indoor plumbing, and theoretical physics.

    If Europe continues to produce people like you, Talha's compatriots will have rather an easy job of it.

    Poor sap. In an earlier post I gave away the birthdate of my wife’s mother in the context of the exodus of the Pied-Noirs in 1962. Look it up. If you can subtract two integer numbers you might be able to get a decent estimate of my age. I also had an earlier discussion with Thorfinnson about Puritanism and Catholicism. So much for the atheist. You must be either of limited intellect, or of limited attention span.

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    • Replies: @for-the-record
    If you can subtract two integer numbers you might be able to get a decent estimate of my age

    This method wouldn't work for your President, though.
    , @AaronB
    So you're not an atheist, and not over 50?

    The situation, then, is worse than I thought. Poor Europe.

    Well, I never did think it was the entirety of the younger generation.

    I continue to have faith that the newer generations of Europe will produce fewer people like you. Perhaps you are an anachronism.

    In the meantime, carry on.
    , @Greasy William
    what do you think of the Rafale fighter program?
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  198. AaronB says:
    @for-the-record
    As new generations of Europeans arise, and glimmers of spiritual health begin appearing, I am curious as to what direction they will take.

    Can you please point me to the glimmers of spiritual health that are beginning to arise among the new generation of Europeans (who to an increasing extent, of course, would not have been called European in the not-too-distant past)?

    Speaking of which, I am sure that everyone tonight has been riveted to their TV or smart phones watching that apotheosis of modern, and youthful, European civilization, Eurovision. Let me extend my sincerest congratulations to Greasy and Dmitry on the stunning victory of their favorite country. ("Pudeur" precludes me from asking Greasy if he would bang.)

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=6&v=84LBjXaeKk4

    The glimmers are there, you just have to search for them. For instance, materialists like Steve Sailer and John Derbyshire instinctively capitulate to whatever group happens to be in power, like all good materialists. But it is heartening to see the growing chorus of younger whites who question the legitimacy of our rulers.

    Even Thorfinson, on this thread, is rather remarkably showing glimmers of concern for establishing a brotherhood, showing he understands the emptiness of individualism.

    You’re not over 50, are you Thorfinnson? Didn’t think so.

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  199. AP says:
    @French Basque
    Thank you. And the sad part is that most of my compatriots have a good opinion of the traitor that de Gaulle was.

    On the other hand, one of the core constituencies of the Front National is the Pied-Noirs and their descendants, and historically one of the very first.

    Another thing of interest regarding de Gaulle for you guys (or more likely your ancestors) who suffered under the communist yoke: he always played a very murky game with the commies. For example, exactly 50 years ago, as the "events" of May 1968 in Paris were beginning to get seriously out of hand, by the middle of the month, he was visiting Ceausescu in Romania and being all chummy with him.

    When I was a teenager I enjoyed reading Camus. I once went to a show in Detroit by the band the Cure, where they played a louder punk version of “Killing an Arab” in the most Arabic city in America, with the crowd singing along.

    I have thought about how great would it have been if there had remained a real piece of France in northern Africa – some mountains, some beaches, some desert- populated by civilized people. There was enough of a population to have made this a viable reality if they all moved to, say Oran and its surroundings. If they Harkis had joined the French in this enclave, do you think their grandchildren would have radicalized, or would they have remained loyal to France across generations?

    How it could have been utterly abandoned and destroyed is shocking.

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  200. Talha says:
    @French Basque

    It’s fairly obvious we haven’t been sending you our best for a while,
     
    The ones we got appear to be the smartest ones, at least from the limited studies that seem to indicate that second or third generation Arabs living here have slightly higher IQs than the national averages of their countries of origin. Not that it is still sufficient to make them anything else than a drag on the countries of destination, but still, that is to be acknowledged.

    but why are you guys accepting them? I thought you guys were intelligent; what gives?
     
    I for one am not accepting them, and in fact in the case of France (but also of all other European countries), opinion polls demonstrate a majority of the population saying that there are too many of them. Where there is a diversity of opinion is what "too many" means exactly, and what to do with those "too many". In my case I think that "too many" means "all of them", and regarding the solution I think something akin to Spain 1492 second edition is a good option. In addition I think the islamic religion should be entirely banned from here, and therefore the White converts would be given the choice to either apostasize publicly (but still be sent to the Kerguelen Archipelago ad perpetuam just to be safe) or to not recant their conversion and be sent to Adélie Land instead.

    You can complain about your multi-culti types just like I can complain about our extremists,
     
    Yes but at least our multi-culti types don't wander around the streets of Algiers randomly stabbing people. Plus their are mostly boomers and dying off, the White youth here overwhelmingly supports the Front National or formations further to the Right, which is highly encouraging.

    but at least we’re inbred retards so it’s surprising that extremism isn’t more widespread…but what’s your excuse?
     
    You may be surprised but I am going to tell you that, in my opinion and based on my observation of the local muslim populace, the Salafi/extremist/terrorist ones appears to be made of the least stupid amongst them -- at the very least, the less apathetic. The other ones just seem content to live off the welfare system and smoke the chicha in their filthy "kebab" outlets. Life is quite good around here for these losers.

    Sure but you have admitted you are fairly ignorant on the subject and don’t feel like studying it further.
     
    I amply study it indeed, but not by reading the dull islamic prose, but from a socio-ethnological angle: I just observe the life and works of the adherents to that religion. By the fruits you shall know the tree, you know? So I am just observing.

    On the other hand the buddhist yellow people who have settled around here, and there a quite a few of them, ten to be nice, industrious, respectful, their kids don't sell drugs nor rape the local girls, are polite, etc. The difference in outcomes is self-evident. I don't need to know sh!t about the theoretical foundations of buddhism to figure this out.

    slightly higher IQs than the national averages of their countries of origin

    OK – what does average IQ have to do with it? Have you never heard of tails on a curve? Why didn’t you test for a minimum IQ before letting them in? This is a poor excuse, intelligent people wouldn’t hide behind this level of incompetence.

    In addition I think the islamic religion should be entirely banned from here, and therefore the White converts would be given the choice to either apostasize publicly (but still be sent to the Kerguelen Archipelago ad perpetuam just to be safe) or to not recant their conversion and be sent to Adélie Land instead.

    Totally support you turning France back into a Christian land and bringing apostasy and blasphemy laws. I’m pretty tired of the virtue signalling to be honest.

    Let’s make it happen folks!

    Salafi/extremist/terrorist ones appears to be made of the least stupid amongst them

    AaronB, you taking notes? More evidence that High-IQ might be dysgenic.

    Life is quite good around here for these losers.

    So you import low-IQ population and then support their laziness with a generous welfare system. More incompetence…this is not looking good for you, bro. These policies seem pretty…ahem…stupid – and I’m being generous here.

    I amply study it indeed, but not by reading the dull islamic prose, but from a socio-ethnological angle:

    Got it, when it comes to Islam – your authority is “muh feelz” discourse. Not surprising really.

    On the other hand the buddhist yellow people who have settled around here

    Buyer’s remorse…boy I bet you wish you could turn back the clock on and swap on that one eh? You guys were all up in IndoChina, you were up close and personal with them – so why didn’t you import a bunch of those guys? Again, seems fairly stupid to me.

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    • Replies: @French Basque
    Look, of course these policies are stupid. That is exactly what I wrote. It was stupid to let these people in. Wee never brought them here... they came out of their own volition, and as a result of pathological altruism (a defect that seems to predominantly affect Europeans, I will readily agree with that), many Europeans did not seem to care much. For some time. Please note that all opinion polls indicate that this time has passed. It is only the oligarchic elite that has not noticed yet.

    Simply observing that in France, muslim inmates represent over 70% of the total, whereas as a fraction of the general population the muslim one is only in the 10-15% range depending on how you could them, is not exactly "much feelz". These numbers are similar all across Europe. Muslim Somalis have turned Stockholm into the world's rape capital.

    Aside from terrorists, your ilk mostly mostly produces drug dealers, rapists, welfare recipients, domestic abusers and violent criminals. In addition muslim women are so fat, ugly and generally disgraceful that their men find it necessary to hide them from public sight by means of cheap potato sacks covering them from head to toes.

    Regarding Indochina, your comment is a complete non sequitur.

    From your comment to Thorfinnson, it appears that you live in the US of A. How funny if that is the case. Please re-assure me that it is not the case -- because if it is, your case is even more pathetic than I thought it was initially (assuming that you were posting from some wonderful islamic country).
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  201. Bliss says:
    @Talha
    Who is this “we” and this “us”?
    And who are you that I should care that you are triggered every time I post?

    Mohammad himself killed numerous innocents.
     
    You just explained why he didn’t kill any innocents. Military-age males weren’t innocent in a tribal war. On top of that, men of Bani Qurayza (a small minority for sure) who did not violate the covenant were let go. If you feel otherwise, your opinion is noted and dismissed.

    The Muslims of Pakistan could be doing better, they need to get the extremism under control for sure.

    Thanks for telling me one more time why you think Sufis cannot be Orthodox Muslims; I support your right to believe you have a point.

    You just explained why he didn’t kill any innocents. .

    You obviously have no sense of ethics and morality, or justice, if you think that pubic hair is proof of guilt.

    men of Bani Qurayza (a small minority for sure) who did not violate the covenant were let go

    And just in the previous sentence this congenital liar wrote: “Military-age males weren’t innocent in a tribal war”. Have you no shame man?

    Explain how the pre-teen boys who just began sprouting pubes were guilty of violating the covenant?

    Btw, the covenant this scoundrel is talking about was one with a robber who attacked caravans stole the goods and killed or enslaved the merchants (released when ransomed).

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    • Replies: @Talha

    pubic hair is proof of guilt.
     
    It isn't - it's proof of puberty and thus biological adulthood. The proof of innocence was when a handful of men came out of the besieged fortification and declared they denounced the breaking of the covenant; they were free to go. The details we have of the incident (including what you keep bringing up) aren't of the most authentic nature, but that's all we have to work with.

    Explain how the pre-teen boys who just began sprouting pubes were guilty of violating the covenant?
     
    Prove that they were pre-teen. All you have to go with is that, if they were confused about the adulthood, that's how they confirmed it. Plenty of Muslims fought when they were 14 or 15 at the time; they were certainly present at Badr.

    Even at one of the BJJ dojos my son has attended, they let advanced 13 year olds train with and grapple with the adult class.


    with a robber who attacked caravans stole the goods and killed or enslaved the merchants (released when ransomed).
     
    No, he was the head of a state that waged economic warfare against the rival city. Cutting off ability for Makkah merchant caravans was the intelligent course of action. It's what economic sanctions and blockades are about and an age old practice that was fairly common until recently:
    "The 13 Colonies, having declared their Independence, had only 31 ships comprising the Continental Navy. To add to this, they issued Letters of Marque to privately owned, armed merchant ships and Commissions for privateers, which were outfitted as warships to prey on enemy merchant ships."
    http://www.usmm.org/revolution.html

    "A Letter of Marque authorized armed merchant ships to challenge any likely enemy vessel that crossed its path during the course of a commercial voyage. A Privateer Commission was issued to vessels, called privateers or cruisers, whose primary objective was to disrupt enemy shipping. The ideal target was an unarmed, or lightly armed, commercial ship."
    https://www.nps.gov/revwar/about_the_revolution/privateers.html

    You really haven't done much in the way of reading about military history have you? Especially of Late Antiquity? Your arguments are basically more of post-modern "muh feelz" discourse from the type of people that shouldn't be let anywhere near a command and control position in a serious conflict. Maybe you can also fault the Rashidun for not having their soldiers go through transgender sensitivity training.

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  202. @for-the-record
    As new generations of Europeans arise, and glimmers of spiritual health begin appearing, I am curious as to what direction they will take.

    Can you please point me to the glimmers of spiritual health that are beginning to arise among the new generation of Europeans (who to an increasing extent, of course, would not have been called European in the not-too-distant past)?

    Speaking of which, I am sure that everyone tonight has been riveted to their TV or smart phones watching that apotheosis of modern, and youthful, European civilization, Eurovision. Let me extend my sincerest congratulations to Greasy and Dmitry on the stunning victory of their favorite country. ("Pudeur" precludes me from asking Greasy if he would bang.)

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=6&v=84LBjXaeKk4

    I have nothing to do with secular Israel. Nothing.

    I have no quarrel with Europeans but a true Jewish state would not participate in such a competition. The young woman who won this competition sung some type of barbaric Moroccan song, not a Jewish song, as far as I know.

    The only positive thing about this is that is a huge fuck you to the Russophiles right after the Gaza massacres and bombing of Syria. Europeans just aren’t that into Palestine/Lebanon/Syria/Iran.

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    • Replies: @Dmitry

    The young woman who won this competition sung some type of barbaric Moroccan song, not a Jewish song, as far as I know.

     

    I didn't watch the show. But checking up about it now. Israel's song was not Moroccan. The woman is like Serdyuchka.

    According to the televoting results, Israel won top votes scores in Ukraine, Georgia, Sweden, Russia.

    Well about Ukraine, it was predictable -

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x8M-nvLsqZQ
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  203. @French Basque
    Poor sap. In an earlier post I gave away the birthdate of my wife's mother in the context of the exodus of the Pied-Noirs in 1962. Look it up. If you can subtract two integer numbers you might be able to get a decent estimate of my age. I also had an earlier discussion with Thorfinnson about Puritanism and Catholicism. So much for the atheist. You must be either of limited intellect, or of limited attention span.

    If you can subtract two integer numbers you might be able to get a decent estimate of my age

    This method wouldn’t work for your President, though.

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    • Replies: @French Basque
    Excellent point indeed :) In my case it does however because I find it badly distasteful to marry someone who is the age of your mother!
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  204. AaronB says:
    @French Basque
    Poor sap. In an earlier post I gave away the birthdate of my wife's mother in the context of the exodus of the Pied-Noirs in 1962. Look it up. If you can subtract two integer numbers you might be able to get a decent estimate of my age. I also had an earlier discussion with Thorfinnson about Puritanism and Catholicism. So much for the atheist. You must be either of limited intellect, or of limited attention span.

    So you’re not an atheist, and not over 50?

    The situation, then, is worse than I thought. Poor Europe.

    Well, I never did think it was the entirety of the younger generation.

    I continue to have faith that the newer generations of Europe will produce fewer people like you. Perhaps you are an anachronism.

    In the meantime, carry on.

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  205. @AaronB
    I know you take no pleasure in it - and I appreciate that. It's a testament to the spiritual superiority of your civilization, at the moment.

    If Europe finds itself again, then a Christian Europe can live respectfully and at peace with the Muslim world.

    I've sadly concluded that turning things around means waiting for the younger generation - the older generation cannot change its ways.

    You are wise to observe us and learn from our mistakes - do not exchange a meaningful life for theoretical physics. As you can see, you will end up losing both.

    If Europe finds itself again, then a Christian Europe can live respectfully and at peace with the Muslim world.

    There wasn’t that much peace or respect between Christendom and Islam for more than a 1000 years. I don’t think Urban II could be accused of materialism or atheism.
    It’s really strange how you think religion is some magical cure for everything. And then you don’t even tell us which religion.

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    • Replies: @AaronB
    That was in the youth of Islam, when it took hold of a fresh barbaric people, much like the fierce Germanic tribes. Religions grow up. The Turks, another fierce barbarian tribe, took up the mantle of violence from the Arabs. But there are no fierce barbarian tribes left.

    There may well be conflict again between a Christian Europe and the Muslim world, but there need not be.

    I don't think religion is the magical cure for everything - I merely think it is indispensable. But life on this earth will never be perfect. Which is, incidentally, the first lesson of religion.

    I don't think this is a strange position - but the most rational view one can take if one is willing to be truly rational, and not stop at the limited rationality of modern science.

    As for which religion - any. Except Judaism.
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  206. AaronB says:
    @German_reader

    If Europe finds itself again, then a Christian Europe can live respectfully and at peace with the Muslim world.
     
    There wasn't that much peace or respect between Christendom and Islam for more than a 1000 years. I don't think Urban II could be accused of materialism or atheism.
    It's really strange how you think religion is some magical cure for everything. And then you don't even tell us which religion.

    That was in the youth of Islam, when it took hold of a fresh barbaric people, much like the fierce Germanic tribes. Religions grow up. The Turks, another fierce barbarian tribe, took up the mantle of violence from the Arabs. But there are no fierce barbarian tribes left.

    There may well be conflict again between a Christian Europe and the Muslim world, but there need not be.

    I don’t think religion is the magical cure for everything – I merely think it is indispensable. But life on this earth will never be perfect. Which is, incidentally, the first lesson of religion.

    I don’t think this is a strange position – but the most rational view one can take if one is willing to be truly rational, and not stop at the limited rationality of modern science.

    As for which religion – any. Except Judaism.

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    • Replies: @Talha

    There may well be conflict again between a Christian Europe and the Muslim world, but there need not be.
     
    Exactly. If cooler heads prevail, then we have good things to look forward to. I'm not talking about acceptance of mass immigration or silly perennialist camp-fires where we all agree that everyone is correct, but serious cooperation on things we can agree upon to push back materialist dogma and culture. I've seen extremely hopeful signs from the work that well-grounded traditional Muslim scholars are doing with the normative voices from Catholicism - that has been one of the most successful cooperative initiatives I have seen yet.

    I remember Dr. Robert P George, a man I respect deeply, tell Muslims straight; learn from us - for the sake of your children's souls do not make the same mistakes we did in dealing with modernity and materialism.


    But life on this earth will never be perfect. Which is, incidentally, the first lesson of religion.
     
    Pure gold.

    Peace.

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  207. @French Basque
    Poor sap. In an earlier post I gave away the birthdate of my wife's mother in the context of the exodus of the Pied-Noirs in 1962. Look it up. If you can subtract two integer numbers you might be able to get a decent estimate of my age. I also had an earlier discussion with Thorfinnson about Puritanism and Catholicism. So much for the atheist. You must be either of limited intellect, or of limited attention span.

    what do you think of the Rafale fighter program?

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    • Replies: @French Basque
    Good question. I am not entirely unbiased here for two reasons: (1) I have served in the French military -- although this was a few years before the Rafale was deployed and it was still in its test phase (2) because the Dassault plant where the wing panels are made is not far from where I live.

    Last time I checked (the numbers might have varied, not to order of magnitude), the all-inclusive hourly flight cost of a Rafale is 15k€, about the same as that of a Gripen, whereas it is about 20k€ for a F35. This means that from a purely economic perspective it was a good program.

    But there is of course more to the story; I think it is generally a good thing to retain the technological ability to produce our own fighters, even if it were more costly to do so. But it turns out that it isn't even the case, as the Eurofighter development program has cost about thrice as much as that of the Rafale.

    As a general rule, Dassault does not seem to be overly concerned with producing stealth planes. I remember that back when I was in the military in the mid-90s, it was fanciful to criticize them for that and to compare (poorly) the Rafale design with that of the much stealthier American planes. In retrospect, it is now quite obvious that stealthiness does not matter so much as AA/AD systems have progressed much faster to the point of negating what originally seemed to be a decisive advantage.

    On the negative side, its engines certainly lacks the power of the Russian fighter engines. I would like to see our fighters have more powerful engines, but to be honest this is a long-lasting tradition to have under-powered fighter jets here, and the Rafale is certainly an improvement with respect to the 2000 for example.

    I believe that so far only 4 or 5 Rafales have been lost (all due to accidents) and considering the fact that this plane has been deployed for more than 15 years now and on all theaters around the globe, this is not a bad result indeed.
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  208. @Talha

    slightly higher IQs than the national averages of their countries of origin
     
    OK - what does average IQ have to do with it? Have you never heard of tails on a curve? Why didn't you test for a minimum IQ before letting them in? This is a poor excuse, intelligent people wouldn't hide behind this level of incompetence.

    In addition I think the islamic religion should be entirely banned from here, and therefore the White converts would be given the choice to either apostasize publicly (but still be sent to the Kerguelen Archipelago ad perpetuam just to be safe) or to not recant their conversion and be sent to Adélie Land instead.
     
    Totally support you turning France back into a Christian land and bringing apostasy and blasphemy laws. I'm pretty tired of the virtue signalling to be honest.

    Let's make it happen folks!


    Salafi/extremist/terrorist ones appears to be made of the least stupid amongst them
     
    AaronB, you taking notes? More evidence that High-IQ might be dysgenic.

    Life is quite good around here for these losers.
     
    So you import low-IQ population and then support their laziness with a generous welfare system. More incompetence...this is not looking good for you, bro. These policies seem pretty...ahem...stupid - and I'm being generous here.

    I amply study it indeed, but not by reading the dull islamic prose, but from a socio-ethnological angle:
     
    Got it, when it comes to Islam - your authority is "muh feelz" discourse. Not surprising really.

    On the other hand the buddhist yellow people who have settled around here
     
    Buyer's remorse...boy I bet you wish you could turn back the clock on and swap on that one eh? You guys were all up in IndoChina, you were up close and personal with them - so why didn't you import a bunch of those guys? Again, seems fairly stupid to me.

    Look, of course these policies are stupid. That is exactly what I wrote. It was stupid to let these people in. Wee never brought them here… they came out of their own volition, and as a result of pathological altruism (a defect that seems to predominantly affect Europeans, I will readily agree with that), many Europeans did not seem to care much. For some time. Please note that all opinion polls indicate that this time has passed. It is only the oligarchic elite that has not noticed yet.

    Simply observing that in France, muslim inmates represent over 70% of the total, whereas as a fraction of the general population the muslim one is only in the 10-15% range depending on how you could them, is not exactly “much feelz”. These numbers are similar all across Europe. Muslim Somalis have turned Stockholm into the world’s rape capital.

    Aside from terrorists, your ilk mostly mostly produces drug dealers, rapists, welfare recipients, domestic abusers and violent criminals. In addition muslim women are so fat, ugly and generally disgraceful that their men find it necessary to hide them from public sight by means of cheap potato sacks covering them from head to toes.

    Regarding Indochina, your comment is a complete non sequitur.

    From your comment to Thorfinnson, it appears that you live in the US of A. How funny if that is the case. Please re-assure me that it is not the case — because if it is, your case is even more pathetic than I thought it was initially (assuming that you were posting from some wonderful islamic country).

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    • Replies: @Talha

    they came out of their own volition
     
    Yeah - and you have no border controls? I mean, I'm sure some people want to come into my house to grab my stuff, which is why I lock the doors and windows. Again, poor excuse.

    pathological altruism (a defect that seems to predominantly affect Europeans
     
    Man - I really wish that was on display during WW2 - you guys could have seriously used some of that pathological altruism then - let me tell ya! Lot of pathology on display though.

    Aside from terrorists, your ilk mostly mostly produces drug dealers, rapists, welfare recipients, domestic abusers and violent criminals.
     
    Yeah man, when Muslims go off track from religion - they seem to go whole hog, don't they? My suggestion is to deport these violators to places that will lock that crap down with some good old fashioned Shariah. Again, why are you guys coddling these folks - you know we would never accept non-Muslims behaving like this in our lands.

    their men find it necessary to hide them from public sight
     
    No - we don't like other men staring at our women because we still have a sense of ghayrah (which you guys used to have - ie. we aren't cucks). You could learn something from us. Why do like men staring at your females? Especially if they are attractive?
    "For his forthcoming book, 'Tell Me What You Want: The Science of Sexual Desire and How It Can Help Improve Your Sex Life,' Lehmiller surveyed thousands of Americans and found that 58% of men and about a third of women had fantasized about cuckolding."
    https://www.cnn.com/2018/01/25/health/cuckolding-sex-kerner/index.html

    If that is right, that's a majority chief - you guys are in trouble.


    is a complete non sequitur.
     
    Why? If you needed cheap third world labor after WW2 - why didn't you allow Buddhists from Vietnam to come in?

    it appears that you live in the US of A.
     
    I do - I didn't really have a choice in the matter since I was 6 when my father moved us here. I ended up marrying a White convert. She seems to have some funny idea that she has a right to be here - women can be so silly. Anyway, I like living in the US - it's a great place to be. I get along great with my neighbors, my boss has said he doesn't know what he'd do without me and our mayor just sent me and my wife a letter recently asking us to extend our memberships on our city's respective advisory boards. So, I'm living my life doing my part to make my little area of the US benefit just as I have benefited from her.

    Now, my wife and I have drafted plans for a few places in the Muslim world we would move to in case things get difficult in the US or I am formally stripped of citizenship and asked to leave. Egypt, Jordan and UAE (even Madinah) are all in the running. In fact, if I see my kids going off track from their religion, I will also consider moving. As of now, they are doing well; memorizing Qur'an coming with me to our weekly dhikr gatherings, have a respect and regard for our scholars, etc. so alhamdulillah.

    I have no problems moving back to the Muslim world; my teachers have already helped me prioritize material objectives well below the more important ones.

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  209. Bliss says:
    @German_reader

    For example, Russia is still occupying Siberia which is well over two thousand times the size of the West Bank.
     
    Are you expecting that Russia should give Siberia back to native groups or what is the relevance of this?

    By recent historical standards the Jews haven’t behaved nearly as badly towards the Palestinians as you Germans have behaved towards Slavs, Gypsies, Jews, Africans
     
    That's true, but maybe you have noticed that afterwards Germany was quite a bit smaller than before.

    Or as Arabs behaved towards Kurds. Or as Turks behaved towards Armenians.
     
    One doesn't really expect anything different from Arabs or Turks. The difference with Israel is that it's presented as a Western-style democracy (the only one in the Mideast), deserving of Western support because of that, so standards are different.
    It's of course true that by world historical standards, or indeed compared to many other regions even today, Israel's misdeeds are pretty trivial, but I don't think I've denied that. Netanyahu's foreign policy machinations are probably quite dangerous though.

    One doesn’t really expect anything different from Arabs or Turks.

    Give it a rest pal. You aren’t all that. The Arabs and Turks never behaved as badly as you Germans did.

    It’s of course true that by world historical standards, or indeed compared to many other regions even today, Israel’s misdeeds are pretty trivial

    Exactly.

    As for Siberia only God knows what the future holds. But it seems probable that it will eventually fall into China’s hands. Russia’s shrinkage is not over yet.

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    • Replies: @German_reader

    The Arabs and Turks never behaved as badly as you Germans did.
     
    Blah. Turks certainly behaved horribly, just not as efficiently as Germans. They also got largely away with it and to this very day pretend they're victims and never did anything wrong. So give it a rest "pal", the amount of German-shaming I'm willing to take does have its limits.
    , @AaronB
    Of course the Arabs and Turks behaved as badly as the Germans.

    And so did Jews. Gibbon records some particularly bloodthirsty massacres of Greek communities, unprovoked of course. There are many examples. And if the Old Testament is even partially historical, which it undoubtedly is, then the mind shudders.

    The Germans have the distinction of being more efficient, and perhaps, the best excuse.

    Not to mention, as George Santayana explains in his wonderful little book Egotism In German Philosophy, the Germans got their egotism from the Jews.
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  210. @for-the-record
    If you can subtract two integer numbers you might be able to get a decent estimate of my age

    This method wouldn't work for your President, though.

    Excellent point indeed :) In my case it does however because I find it badly distasteful to marry someone who is the age of your mother!

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  211. Jayce says:
    @French Basque

    guess that our good French Basque is over 50 years old
     
    Really not quite, fellow, not quite. You're quite off the mark here. In addition I probably have several more children than you do and we are not "spiritually empty".

    It is only that our religion is one that produces, you know, a civilized society, as opposed to shitholes like the ones that range all the way from Morocco to Pakistan.

    There’s a kind of dumbed down version of perennialism that seems unfortunately far too common in some parts of the dissident right. There are very fine distinctions to be made between tradition and plain backwardsness, between illiberal alternatives and totalitarianism. Not all old things are necessarily good just because they’re old, and certainly not all strands of religious thought were created equal. It’s a real false equivalency of the worst kind to assume that wanting Europeans to take Christianity more seriously must go hand-in-hand with developing a weird fetish for Islam.

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    • Replies: @AaronB
    But it is also a false equivalency to think that loving your own religion means hating that of another. In fact, healthy self-love does not involve the need to denigrate others.

    The European past is one of swinging between extremes. Will that always be true?

    Islam right now is spiritually healthier than Europe. Focusing on Europe's technological superiority is obtuse.
    , @French Basque

    It’s a real false equivalency of the worst kind to assume that wanting Europeans to take Christianity more seriously must go hand-in-hand with developing a weird fetish for Islam.
     
    Are you sure you wanted to address that remark to me, and not to AaronB?

    Because I certainly agree with you, especially

    certainly not all strands of religious thought were created equal.
     
    which is exactly in the same vein as what I was telling Talha earlier.
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  212. @Bliss

    One doesn’t really expect anything different from Arabs or Turks.
     
    Give it a rest pal. You aren’t all that. The Arabs and Turks never behaved as badly as you Germans did.

    It’s of course true that by world historical standards, or indeed compared to many other regions even today, Israel’s misdeeds are pretty trivial
     
    Exactly.

    As for Siberia only God knows what the future holds. But it seems probable that it will eventually fall into China’s hands. Russia’s shrinkage is not over yet.

    The Arabs and Turks never behaved as badly as you Germans did.

    Blah. Turks certainly behaved horribly, just not as efficiently as Germans. They also got largely away with it and to this very day pretend they’re victims and never did anything wrong. So give it a rest “pal”, the amount of German-shaming I’m willing to take does have its limits.

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    • Replies: @songbird
    Bliss seems to have an odd obsession with Siberia.

    Here's one for you, Bliss: do you know where blond hair came from? It actually came to Europe from an ancient population called Ancient North Eurasians who lived in Siberia. In fact, all Europeans have some ANE ancestors. Mal'ta Boy who was from this original ANE population was found near Lake Baikal - that is pretty far east.

    Of course, that group doesn't exist any more - there was a lot of population turnover in Eurasia, but for some reason Bliss thinks Europeans should stay west of the Urals, and let the Mongolians or Chinese have the rest or something.

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  213. AaronB says:
    @Jayce
    There's a kind of dumbed down version of perennialism that seems unfortunately far too common in some parts of the dissident right. There are very fine distinctions to be made between tradition and plain backwardsness, between illiberal alternatives and totalitarianism. Not all old things are necessarily good just because they're old, and certainly not all strands of religious thought were created equal. It's a real false equivalency of the worst kind to assume that wanting Europeans to take Christianity more seriously must go hand-in-hand with developing a weird fetish for Islam.

    But it is also a false equivalency to think that loving your own religion means hating that of another. In fact, healthy self-love does not involve the need to denigrate others.

    The European past is one of swinging between extremes. Will that always be true?

    Islam right now is spiritually healthier than Europe. Focusing on Europe’s technological superiority is obtuse.

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    • Replies: @Bliss

    But it is also a false equivalency to think that loving your own religion means hating that of another.
     
    You must be the most confused yet most pretentious person here. If you really believed the above (and if you really preferred Buddhism as you keep saying) then why the hell do you keep defending and promoting Islam which is the worst enemy Buddhism ever faced and which is the most hateful, intolerant, aggressive religion extant?
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  214. Mikhail says: • Website
    @Mr. Hack

    There’s absolutely no evidence whatsoever to contradict that the majority of the Donbass rebels are indigenous to the territory of the former Ukrainian SSR. This includes the overall makeup of the Donbass leadership.
     
    I'm not sure how large the insurgent army was at its height, but Alexander Zakharchenko, the second self proclaimed preident of the DNR is on record stating:

    He said 3-4,000 Russians had joined the rebel ranks during the fighting and some had been killed. "Moreover, many soldiers are coming to us from Russia who prefer to spend their holidays not on the beach but shoulder-to-shoulder with their brothers, fighting for the freedom of Donbass," he said.
     
    It's also well known that many Chechens and Asians from the East and other soldiers of fortune were employed by the insurgents and helped swell their ranks.

    *Aleksander Borodai, the first 'president of the DNR was a Russian.

    *Igor Girkin, a prominent commander was also a Russian.

    *Andrei Antyufeyev, a prominent politician within the DNR, also a Russian.

    *Igor Bezler, a commander, born in Crimea, held Russian citizenship.

    *Igor Gubarev, a self styled 'governor' certainly has a Russian sounding name.

    Etc; etc;

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-27211501

    No denying that there has been assistance from Russia and elsewhere for the Donbass rebels. However, it’s not as great as some suggest. From an at times snooty (phony, crony, baloney) and rather hypocritical (but in a number of instances) good source

    https://irrussianality.wordpress.com/2016/09/14/origins-of-the-war-in-donbass/

    I thoroughly recommend the latest podcast on Sean’s Russia Blog, in which Sean Guillory interviews Baylor University professor Serhiy Kudelia about the origins of the war in Donbass. You can listen to it here. For those of you who don’t have the spare time to listen to the whole thing, here are some key points.

    Many local officials helped the separatists in the early stages of the uprising, including helping to organize the referendums in Donetsk and Lugansk provinces in May 2014. In ‘the absence of the state’, which had collapsed following the change of power in Kiev, they were ‘hedging their bets’, but nobody was telling them what to do, Kudelia says. On the basis of research he conducted in Donbass, he comments that ‘There was clearly no hierarchical subordination to any elite actor at the very top. And a lot of the decisions that were taken by local officials were taken on their own.’
    ‘Strelkov was not an agent of the [Russian] state’, in Kudelia’s opinion. He and other Russians who came to Ukraine were ‘private individuals’ acting on their own initiative.
    The recently released tapes of Sergei Glazyev’s telephone conversations with anti-Maidan activists are ‘not very convincing’, in the sense of not proving that the anti-Maidan movement was being run by the Russian government. There is an ‘absence of a smoking gun in these tapes’. Glazyev is recorded speaking with activists in Odessa, Kharkov, and Zaporozhye, but not in Donbass. Furthermore, the conversations suggest that the activists were not in contact with any representatives of the Russian government in Ukraine. That in turn suggests that the anti-Maidan movement was not being controlled by members of the Russian intelligence services operating within Ukraine, as the Ukrainian government claimed.
    ‘A careless attitude of the Ukrainian government towards the use of indiscriminate force against the separatists … hardened grievances … and a sense of the illegitimacy of the Kiev government’, and so strengthened the rebellion.
    Kudelia argues that the war in Donbass meets the definition of a civil war. In August 2014, it became an ‘internationalized civil war’. But even after that it remained essentially about internal Ukrainian affairs.

    Towards the end of the interview, Kudelia remarks that a correct understanding of the origins of the war is essential to resolving it. If the Kiev government is right, and the war was primarily the result of Russian aggression, then the solution lies in pressuring Russia. If, however, the war was mainly a product of local grievances, then the solution must involve addressing those grievances. That in turn requires Kiev to take the rebels’ demands seriously and negotiate with them.

    Regular readers of this blog will not be surprised to learn that I found Kudelia’s analysis most convincing. I would have liked Guillory to ask him a few more questions concerning the role of Western states in the conflict. To what extent has the West’s focus on Russia encouraged the Ukrainian government’s misinterpretation of the war as being primarily caused by Russia rather than internal grievances? And to what extent, therefore, must the West share some of the blame for what has happened?

    Maybe not such an either-or situation (Russian inspired or legit regional gripe) as presented. Rather, a combo of two.

    Somewhat reminded of the Vietnam War. Some would say the VC were just puppets of North Vietnam. The reality was that the VC had considerable support within South Vietnam. Hence, the VC and North Vietnam were simultaneous realities.

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    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    So we go from:

    There’s absolutely no evidence whatsoever to contradict that the majority of the Donbass rebels are indigenous to the territory of the former Ukrainian SSR. This includes the overall makeup of the Donbass leadership.
     
    to:

    Maybe not such an either-or situation (Russian inspired or legit regional gripe) as presented. Rather, a combo of two.
     
    A little bit of progress. Read a little bit more:

    There is no doubt that Russian troops have fought and are fighting in Ukraine, contrary to Putin’s “not one Russian soldier” assertion. The civic organization, Cargo 200, publishes names, photos, addresses, and military records of 167 regular troops “killed” and 187 “MIA” and 305 mercenaries “killed” and 796 “MIA.” The artillery and tank warfare in Ukraine leaves behind unidentifiable body parts. Most of the MIAs, therefore, are really KIAs. The Cargo 200 figures are underestimates because families of fallen soldiers risk losing death benefits if they talk. Societies of Russian Mothers gather information from grieving families to arrive at casualty figures of up to 3,500 KIA. Young Russian soldiers in Ukraine routinely post pictures on vKontakte (a Russian version of Facebook) of themselves in Ukraine and identify their unit. A vKontake habitué going silent is a sign of yet another combat death. We will not have an authoritative figure on Russian soldier deaths in Ukraine as long as Putin keeps such casualties a state secret.
     
    https://www.forbes.com/sites/paulroderickgregory/2016/09/06/russian-combat-medals-put-lie-to-putins-claim-of-no-russian-troops-in-ukraine/#32850d413809
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  215. AaronB says:
    @Bliss

    One doesn’t really expect anything different from Arabs or Turks.
     
    Give it a rest pal. You aren’t all that. The Arabs and Turks never behaved as badly as you Germans did.

    It’s of course true that by world historical standards, or indeed compared to many other regions even today, Israel’s misdeeds are pretty trivial
     
    Exactly.

    As for Siberia only God knows what the future holds. But it seems probable that it will eventually fall into China’s hands. Russia’s shrinkage is not over yet.

    Of course the Arabs and Turks behaved as badly as the Germans.

    And so did Jews. Gibbon records some particularly bloodthirsty massacres of Greek communities, unprovoked of course. There are many examples. And if the Old Testament is even partially historical, which it undoubtedly is, then the mind shudders.

    The Germans have the distinction of being more efficient, and perhaps, the best excuse.

    Not to mention, as George Santayana explains in his wonderful little book Egotism In German Philosophy, the Germans got their egotism from the Jews.

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  216. Dmitry says:
    @for-the-record
    As new generations of Europeans arise, and glimmers of spiritual health begin appearing, I am curious as to what direction they will take.

    Can you please point me to the glimmers of spiritual health that are beginning to arise among the new generation of Europeans (who to an increasing extent, of course, would not have been called European in the not-too-distant past)?

    Speaking of which, I am sure that everyone tonight has been riveted to their TV or smart phones watching that apotheosis of modern, and youthful, European civilization, Eurovision. Let me extend my sincerest congratulations to Greasy and Dmitry on the stunning victory of their favorite country. ("Pudeur" precludes me from asking Greasy if he would bang.)

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=6&v=84LBjXaeKk4

    She is going to be the Israeli version of Serduchka.

    Well done for Israel – they (TV show that chose her), had a good understanding of target audience and that she had a good chance to win. And they executed the plan and completely troll Europe.

    Russia is spending a lot of money to win this every year and using the best singers, and often almost winning and failing at the last minute. Remember the fiasco with Sergey Lazarev (despite the government deleting all his porn videos off the internet), which allowed Ukraine to troll the subsequent year.

    -

    By the way, before saying Eurovision is just for the gays. Let us remember Dima Bilan!

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  217. Russophile updates

    SyrianGirl: Since Syria saved Russia from blockade and starvation by giving them a naval base, Russia is now morally obligated to attack Israel. If Russia refuses to do so, it is Russia’s loss as Syria will have no choice but to kick Russia out of Syria. Israel will never dare attack Syria again after Syria shelled some empty fields in the Golan a couple of days ago.

    Elijah: Everything is going according to plan. Okay, yeah maybe Hezbollah and Iran aren’t going to attack Israel like I promised 5 times a week for past 2 years but the SAA remains unstoppable and Israel *might* cut it’s bombing of Syrian territory down to as little as every other day out of fear of the SAA which is now universally recognized as the strongest land army in human history. Netanyahu wants war because he is worried that he is about to be sent to prison. Iran and Hezbollah will not fight a war because they know it will help Bibi with his domestic problems.

    newly-anti-Putin-Russophiles: Putin is controlled by the Jews and is probably Jewish himself despite the fact that he is possibly the least Jewish looking guy ever. The only reason that Putin sold the s-300 to Iran was because Iran has already made a copy of the s-300 that is much more advanced than the Russian version (they are seriously saying this). It’s okay though because Russia is weak and the Resistance Axis doesn’t need Russia. Also, we never said anything about Israel anyway, the goal is to defeat ISIS and we are doing just that! Oh and the slow extermination of the Houthi’s in Yemen isn’t actually happening. Nothing to see here, move along.

    sticking-with-Putin-Russophiles: Putin has lured Netanyahu into a trap. Can’t you see that every time that Israel blows up an Iranian base and kills scores of Syrian/Iranian troops that it lulls Israel into complacency and while toughening up the Syrian and Iranian armies? Putin will shortly deploy a million Russian troops and 1000 aircraft in Syria and then personally lead a tank charge to conquer Israel.

    actual-Russians: You guys are willing to fight Zionism to the last Russian. We owe Syria nothing. Based on the videos that the IDF has released, the Syrians are too stupid to properly operate the equipment we’ve given them already so there is no point in giving them more advanced systems since they probably won’t even be able to figure out how to turn those systems on.

    I don’t like to kick people when they are down, but the Russophiles make it hard not to. They are just so much fun.

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  218. @Greasy William
    what do you think of the Rafale fighter program?

    Good question. I am not entirely unbiased here for two reasons: (1) I have served in the French military — although this was a few years before the Rafale was deployed and it was still in its test phase (2) because the Dassault plant where the wing panels are made is not far from where I live.

    Last time I checked (the numbers might have varied, not to order of magnitude), the all-inclusive hourly flight cost of a Rafale is 15k€, about the same as that of a Gripen, whereas it is about 20k€ for a F35. This means that from a purely economic perspective it was a good program.

    But there is of course more to the story; I think it is generally a good thing to retain the technological ability to produce our own fighters, even if it were more costly to do so. But it turns out that it isn’t even the case, as the Eurofighter development program has cost about thrice as much as that of the Rafale.

    As a general rule, Dassault does not seem to be overly concerned with producing stealth planes. I remember that back when I was in the military in the mid-90s, it was fanciful to criticize them for that and to compare (poorly) the Rafale design with that of the much stealthier American planes. In retrospect, it is now quite obvious that stealthiness does not matter so much as AA/AD systems have progressed much faster to the point of negating what originally seemed to be a decisive advantage.

    On the negative side, its engines certainly lacks the power of the Russian fighter engines. I would like to see our fighters have more powerful engines, but to be honest this is a long-lasting tradition to have under-powered fighter jets here, and the Rafale is certainly an improvement with respect to the 2000 for example.

    I believe that so far only 4 or 5 Rafales have been lost (all due to accidents) and considering the fact that this plane has been deployed for more than 15 years now and on all theaters around the globe, this is not a bad result indeed.

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  219. @Jayce
    There's a kind of dumbed down version of perennialism that seems unfortunately far too common in some parts of the dissident right. There are very fine distinctions to be made between tradition and plain backwardsness, between illiberal alternatives and totalitarianism. Not all old things are necessarily good just because they're old, and certainly not all strands of religious thought were created equal. It's a real false equivalency of the worst kind to assume that wanting Europeans to take Christianity more seriously must go hand-in-hand with developing a weird fetish for Islam.

    It’s a real false equivalency of the worst kind to assume that wanting Europeans to take Christianity more seriously must go hand-in-hand with developing a weird fetish for Islam.

    Are you sure you wanted to address that remark to me, and not to AaronB?

    Because I certainly agree with you, especially

    certainly not all strands of religious thought were created equal.

    which is exactly in the same vein as what I was telling Talha earlier.

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  220. songbird says:
    @German_reader

    The Arabs and Turks never behaved as badly as you Germans did.
     
    Blah. Turks certainly behaved horribly, just not as efficiently as Germans. They also got largely away with it and to this very day pretend they're victims and never did anything wrong. So give it a rest "pal", the amount of German-shaming I'm willing to take does have its limits.

    Bliss seems to have an odd obsession with Siberia.

    Here’s one for you, Bliss: do you know where blond hair came from? It actually came to Europe from an ancient population called Ancient North Eurasians who lived in Siberia. In fact, all Europeans have some ANE ancestors. Mal’ta Boy who was from this original ANE population was found near Lake Baikal – that is pretty far east.

    Of course, that group doesn’t exist any more – there was a lot of population turnover in Eurasia, but for some reason Bliss thinks Europeans should stay west of the Urals, and let the Mongolians or Chinese have the rest or something.

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  221. But there is of course more to the story; I think it is generally a good thing to retain the technological ability to produce our own fighters, even if it were more costly to do so.

    I agree. I actually think that the US would benefit a lot if the UK, France, Germany, Japan and South Korea would be more independent. But of those countries, only France is 100% self sufficient in terms of modern arms.

    But it turns out that it isn’t even the case, as the Eurofighter development program has cost about thrice as much as that of the Rafale.

    The Eurofighter was always a retarded idea.

    As a general rule, Dassault does not seem to be overly concerned with producing stealth planes. I remember that back when I was in the military in the mid-90s, it was fanciful to criticize them for that and to compare (poorly) the Rafale design with that of the much stealthier American planes.

    ???

    The F-22 didn’t enter service until 2005 and the Rafale has a much lower RCS than the F-16.

    In retrospect, it is now quite obvious that stealthiness does not matter so much as AA/AD systems have progressed much faster to the point of negating what originally seemed to be a decisive advantage.

    Err…. I dunno about that. So far the F-22 and F-35 look phenomenal in exercises. We’ll have to see if it carries over into actual combat.

    But Macron and Merkel have already announced that they are pushing ahead on their own 5th gen design, so obviously France and Germany must believe in the importance of stealth.

    I think that France didn’t want to build a totally LO fighter back when they did the Rafale because the technology was just too bleeding edge and any program would have been susceptible to cost overruns and delays, which unlike the US, France could not afford.

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  222. Bliss says:
    @AaronB
    But it is also a false equivalency to think that loving your own religion means hating that of another. In fact, healthy self-love does not involve the need to denigrate others.

    The European past is one of swinging between extremes. Will that always be true?

    Islam right now is spiritually healthier than Europe. Focusing on Europe's technological superiority is obtuse.

    But it is also a false equivalency to think that loving your own religion means hating that of another.

    You must be the most confused yet most pretentious person here. If you really believed the above (and if you really preferred Buddhism as you keep saying) then why the hell do you keep defending and promoting Islam which is the worst enemy Buddhism ever faced and which is the most hateful, intolerant, aggressive religion extant?

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    • Replies: @AaronB
    Buddhists are pretty tolerant of other religions.

    I obviously don't agree with your characterization of Islam. I think that honor goes to Judaism. But even Judaism has a good side and should be tolerated in its proper sphere.

    I also don't have a static view of history or nations - the behavior of barbarian Arab or Turkish tribes one step removed from paganism is no more essential to core Islam than that of the Spanish in the Americas is to core Catholicism.
    , @Anon

    You must be the most confused yet most pretentious person here.
     
    But he's entertaining and once in a while has real insights.
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  223. ???

    The F-22 didn’t enter service until 2005 and the Rafale has a much lower RCS than the F-16.

    Let me clarify this as the dates might not have been immediately obvious: I served in 1995/96, only 4 years after the first flight of the Rafale, which was still in test phase and would not be deployed before another half dozen years. I don’t know how old you are, but in those years I can tell you that there was absolute fascination amongst young technology-oriented people like me and my peers for the F117. You have to remember however that this was before the crash of one in Serbia and before the realization that its signature was in fact not that small for Thales radars in particular. As a result it was very fanciful to denigrate the Rafale design, as opposed to the smart, stealth American design of the F117 which would, in addition, be further improved in the upcoming F22 (due to be deployed initially more or less at the same time as the Rafale).

    So far the F-22 and F-35 look phenomenal in exercises. We’ll have to see if it carries over into actual combat.

    Indeed. On the other hand the Rafale has seen a lot of real action and amongst the multi-role fighters of its generation it is probably the one that has seen the most. Real combat is the only thing that matters. For example and in a related area, the FAMAS assault rifle gun was great on paper but proved to be very unreliable (at least for the non-retrofitted versions) in real conditions because of its susceptibility to jamming when dirty. In view and based on my experience with firearms, both in military and sports/civilian contexts, given the choice I would prefer to carry an AK74 over any other individual weapon with me. But of course the French bureaucrats made the wrong choice and bought that HK416 POS to replace the FAMAS.

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  224. @Felix Keverich

    How do you suggest Russia retaliate against Israel?
     
    Not inviting Netanyahoo would be a start. If you attack our friends and allies, you should not be treated as a guest of honor at our "sacred" annual ritual.

    Step two: ramp up anti-Israel propaganda on state TV. The Jews are highly sensitive to this stuff. For now domestic propaganda mostly ignores Israel, when they do report on Israel, they cover it positively.

    Ending direct wealth transfers to Israel. Under Putin's initiative, Russia pays pensions to Soviet Jews, who emigrated to Israel - a bizarre arrangement for all sorts of reasons.

    Russia's economic relationship with Israel in general is very one-sided and mostly serves as a conduit for Jews to extract wealth from Russia. The government should make it harder for the Israeli citizens to do business in Russia, ideally pressuring them to sell their businesses and get out. This is not a retaliation measure per se, just sound economic nationalism, because having Jewish businesses in Russia is bad for Russians.

    Look, I like you Felix, often I feel you’re my only ideological ally here, but I disagree with almost all of this.

    1. As you note Jews have major influence over the Western media. If you want Russia to take Iran’s place as the main enemy of the Jewish people, this is a good way to go about it. Unfortunately, it will also be accompanied by the dislocation of major NATO forces to the Baltics and the Ukraine far earlier than would otherwise be the case.

    2. Russia spends very little on pensions to emigre Jews. Abrogating this will set back rule of law and institute potentially very harmful precedents, which might very well rebound against Russians.

    3. Kristallnacht 2.0 combines the worst of both the above two points.

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    • Replies: @Felix Keverich
    Hey, I'm a proud Russian nationalist, and while I would never call you "a Jew-loving neocon cockroach", you do seem to be too soft on the Jewish Question:

    If you want Russia to take Iran’s place as the main enemy of the Jewish people, this is a good way to go about it.
     
    1. Russia is already there. You published charts showing US Russophobia is primarily a Jewish thing. A prominent Jewish pundit on Bloomberg news writes articles about how Russia is a "cancer", a "termite", eating away at the international community. When Trump cancelled Iran deal, the main argument I heard (from US pundits) why this is bad was that rising oil price helps Russia.

    2. There is no article in the Russian Constitution that says we must donate money to the Israelis. This was Putin's dumb idea, and he can simply rescind it.


    Kristallnacht 2.0
     
    3. A classic strawman: there is a thousand ways that Russian bureaucracy can make your life unbearable, that stop short of an actual pogrom. I also find it funny how you didn't even try to argue that Jewish businesses provide benefit to the community, do you agree with me on this point?
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  225. AaronB says:
    @Bliss

    But it is also a false equivalency to think that loving your own religion means hating that of another.
     
    You must be the most confused yet most pretentious person here. If you really believed the above (and if you really preferred Buddhism as you keep saying) then why the hell do you keep defending and promoting Islam which is the worst enemy Buddhism ever faced and which is the most hateful, intolerant, aggressive religion extant?

    Buddhists are pretty tolerant of other religions.

    I obviously don’t agree with your characterization of Islam. I think that honor goes to Judaism. But even Judaism has a good side and should be tolerated in its proper sphere.

    I also don’t have a static view of history or nations – the behavior of barbarian Arab or Turkish tribes one step removed from paganism is no more essential to core Islam than that of the Spanish in the Americas is to core Catholicism.

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  226. Dmitry says:
    @Greasy William
    I have nothing to do with secular Israel. Nothing.

    I have no quarrel with Europeans but a true Jewish state would not participate in such a competition. The young woman who won this competition sung some type of barbaric Moroccan song, not a Jewish song, as far as I know.

    The only positive thing about this is that is a huge fuck you to the Russophiles right after the Gaza massacres and bombing of Syria. Europeans just aren't that into Palestine/Lebanon/Syria/Iran.

    The young woman who won this competition sung some type of barbaric Moroccan song, not a Jewish song, as far as I know.

    I didn’t watch the show. But checking up about it now. Israel’s song was not Moroccan. The woman is like Serdyuchka.

    According to the televoting results, Israel won top votes scores in Ukraine, Georgia, Sweden, Russia.

    Well about Ukraine, it was predictable –

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    • Replies: @Dmitry
    Watching the Serduchka video at 2:41 - even for Eurovision, they had to disrespect Victory Day with this poppy shit.
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  227. Dmitry says:
    @Dmitry

    The young woman who won this competition sung some type of barbaric Moroccan song, not a Jewish song, as far as I know.

     

    I didn't watch the show. But checking up about it now. Israel's song was not Moroccan. The woman is like Serdyuchka.

    According to the televoting results, Israel won top votes scores in Ukraine, Georgia, Sweden, Russia.

    Well about Ukraine, it was predictable -

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x8M-nvLsqZQ

    Watching the Serduchka video at 2:41 – even for Eurovision, they had to disrespect Victory Day with this poppy shit.

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  228. Mr. Hack says:
    @Mikhail
    No denying that there has been assistance from Russia and elsewhere for the Donbass rebels. However, it's not as great as some suggest. From an at times snooty (phony, crony, baloney) and rather hypocritical (but in a number of instances) good source

    https://irrussianality.wordpress.com/2016/09/14/origins-of-the-war-in-donbass/


    I thoroughly recommend the latest podcast on Sean’s Russia Blog, in which Sean Guillory interviews Baylor University professor Serhiy Kudelia about the origins of the war in Donbass. You can listen to it here. For those of you who don’t have the spare time to listen to the whole thing, here are some key points.

    Many local officials helped the separatists in the early stages of the uprising, including helping to organize the referendums in Donetsk and Lugansk provinces in May 2014. In ‘the absence of the state’, which had collapsed following the change of power in Kiev, they were ‘hedging their bets’, but nobody was telling them what to do, Kudelia says. On the basis of research he conducted in Donbass, he comments that ‘There was clearly no hierarchical subordination to any elite actor at the very top. And a lot of the decisions that were taken by local officials were taken on their own.’
    ‘Strelkov was not an agent of the [Russian] state’, in Kudelia’s opinion. He and other Russians who came to Ukraine were ‘private individuals’ acting on their own initiative.
    The recently released tapes of Sergei Glazyev’s telephone conversations with anti-Maidan activists are ‘not very convincing’, in the sense of not proving that the anti-Maidan movement was being run by the Russian government. There is an ‘absence of a smoking gun in these tapes’. Glazyev is recorded speaking with activists in Odessa, Kharkov, and Zaporozhye, but not in Donbass. Furthermore, the conversations suggest that the activists were not in contact with any representatives of the Russian government in Ukraine. That in turn suggests that the anti-Maidan movement was not being controlled by members of the Russian intelligence services operating within Ukraine, as the Ukrainian government claimed.
    ‘A careless attitude of the Ukrainian government towards the use of indiscriminate force against the separatists … hardened grievances … and a sense of the illegitimacy of the Kiev government’, and so strengthened the rebellion.
    Kudelia argues that the war in Donbass meets the definition of a civil war. In August 2014, it became an ‘internationalized civil war’. But even after that it remained essentially about internal Ukrainian affairs.

    Towards the end of the interview, Kudelia remarks that a correct understanding of the origins of the war is essential to resolving it. If the Kiev government is right, and the war was primarily the result of Russian aggression, then the solution lies in pressuring Russia. If, however, the war was mainly a product of local grievances, then the solution must involve addressing those grievances. That in turn requires Kiev to take the rebels’ demands seriously and negotiate with them.

    Regular readers of this blog will not be surprised to learn that I found Kudelia’s analysis most convincing. I would have liked Guillory to ask him a few more questions concerning the role of Western states in the conflict. To what extent has the West’s focus on Russia encouraged the Ukrainian government’s misinterpretation of the war as being primarily caused by Russia rather than internal grievances? And to what extent, therefore, must the West share some of the blame for what has happened?
     

    Maybe not such an either-or situation (Russian inspired or legit regional gripe) as presented. Rather, a combo of two.

    Somewhat reminded of the Vietnam War. Some would say the VC were just puppets of North Vietnam. The reality was that the VC had considerable support within South Vietnam. Hence, the VC and North Vietnam were simultaneous realities.

    So we go from:

    There’s absolutely no evidence whatsoever to contradict that the majority of the Donbass rebels are indigenous to the territory of the former Ukrainian SSR. This includes the overall makeup of the Donbass leadership.

    to:

    Maybe not such an either-or situation (Russian inspired or legit regional gripe) as presented. Rather, a combo of two.

    A little bit of progress. Read a little bit more:

    There is no doubt that Russian troops have fought and are fighting in Ukraine, contrary to Putin’s “not one Russian soldier” assertion. The civic organization, Cargo 200, publishes names, photos, addresses, and military records of 167 regular troops “killed” and 187 “MIA” and 305 mercenaries “killed” and 796 “MIA.” The artillery and tank warfare in Ukraine leaves behind unidentifiable body parts. Most of the MIAs, therefore, are really KIAs. The Cargo 200 figures are underestimates because families of fallen soldiers risk losing death benefits if they talk. Societies of Russian Mothers gather information from grieving families to arrive at casualty figures of up to 3,500 KIA. Young Russian soldiers in Ukraine routinely post pictures on vKontakte (a Russian version of Facebook) of themselves in Ukraine and identify their unit. A vKontake habitué going silent is a sign of yet another combat death. We will not have an authoritative figure on Russian soldier deaths in Ukraine as long as Putin keeps such casualties a state secret.

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/paulroderickgregory/2016/09/06/russian-combat-medals-put-lie-to-putins-claim-of-no-russian-troops-in-ukraine/#32850d413809

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