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Recently released PEW opinion poll: A majority of Europeans favor taking in refugees, but most disapprove of EU’s handling of the issue

poll-europe-immigration

What strikes me is how close the correlation is. Above a “safe point” of 70% pro-refugee sentiment, everyone is a globalist. Below a “critical point” of 60% pro-refugee sentiment, everyone is some sort of nationalist-populist.

* In Europe, all the usual suspects – Sweden Yes and his pals – are highly pro-refugee. In the safely globalist group, only the UK marginally surprised anyone with a “populist” result in the form of Brexit.

Greece’s relatively high pro-refugee sentiment is rather surprising to me, since I have heard that refugees have made a real mess of Athens. But I suppose it explains why there’s no strong far right movement in Greece. (Golden Dawn are electorally unfeasible Neo-Nazis; if they haven’t managed to make hay out of a decade’s worth of recession, they’re not going to achieve anything).

Visegrad is stronk, though Hungary is a lot more based than Poland (we know that). Italy under Caesar Salvini has just joined this august group. I wonder what the figures for Austria would be.

* USA is in the intermediate zone, which – apart from the incompetence of its promulgators – explains why Trumpism has had an extremely hard time getting anything done after its narrow electoral victory in 2016.

And it also explains why Trumpism seems so extremely fragile. I am now rather pessimistic about its prospects after 2020, if not after a couple of months.

* Everyone less pro-refugee than the US is run by some kind of national-populist. This of course includes NAC-ruled South Africa, which pursue nationalist (or rather racialist) goals under the cover of SJW rhetoric beloved of by Western IYIs.

Israel is now what we might call a “national state.”

Russia isn’t quite as based as Hungary, but is more based than Poland. Consequently, it is firmly in the Visegrad grouping so far as domestic sentiment goes. This is confirmed by many other polls:

I hate to keep piling on him, but Polish Perspective really was wrong when he claimed that Russians were much more cucked on immigration than Poland. It’s sooner the opposite. Though Poland is nonetheless very based by Western standards, if not Visegrad ones.

This also provides further support for my theory that post-Putinism will not see single digit approval liberals or ageing sovoks coming to power, but populist nationalists of the kind who already rule the roost in Hungary, Poland, and Israel.

In other words, Russia will likely be getting more of the “national” Putin (standing up for Russian national interests) and less of the “sovok” Putin (Article 282, huge labor flows from Central Asia).

 
• Category: Ideology • Tags: Eastern Europe, Immigration, Opinion Poll, Russia 
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  1. I hate to keep piling on him, but Polish Perspective really was wrong when he claimed that Russians were much more cucked on immigration than Poland.

    Polish Perspective has bigger problems right now: https://www.cnbc.com/2018/09/27/tesla-falls-4percent-on-report-elon-musk-sued-by-sec.html

    :D

    • Replies: @songbird
  2. Tyrion 2 says:

    My hope is that the rate at which Hungary transformed is evidence that most of the SJW stuff is just falsified preferences and that, once punctured, it vanishes.

    Trump’s problem is that the US media is exceptionally biased so he can’t puncture the falsified preferences without totally discrediting the media. Our Trump moment (Brexit) ended with half of our newspapers for and half against. That is radically different than just the 2 out of the too hundred US newspapers that endorsed Trump.

  3. songbird says:
    @Thorfinnsson

    Sounds like he is weaving pot into his lies.

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
  4. @songbird

    The pot thing was a result of Azelia Banks leaking text messages with “Grimes” and thus would appear to be true.

    Though most of Banks’ ranting just sounded like she was upset she didn’t get the D.

    And to be fair to Polish Perspective not only is there no guarantee Musk loses this, but for that matter in theory Tesla could succeed without him (I say in theory because they’re doomed period for reasons mostly unrelated to this lawsuit).

  5. Mr. XYZ says:

    If a Russian nationalist eventually replaces Putin, could we see the Eurasian Economic Union being scrapped? If so, could Russia begin the process of joining the European Union in such a scenario (assuming that Ukraine will already be making serious advances towards EU membership by that point in time, that is)?

    • Replies: @anonymous coward
    , @Dmitry
  6. CBOS, the premier Polish public polling institute, has been running polls on refugee acceptance. They historically used to ask in general about refugees but changed this practice in the last few years. This is because since 2014, there have been some applicants from Ukraine. We’re talking about very low amounts here but Poland also gets very low amounts of overall applications, too. This muddies the waters.

    Furthermore, if you look at those who we do accept, most of them tend to come from Russia(not chechens, who have a near-100% rejection rate), Kazakhstan(returning Poles in many instances), whereas in Western Europe it is almost always arabs and africans who get accepted. It’s true that the word “refugee” has been sullied in recent years in Poland, but for us it has mixed connotations. That’s why CBOS specifically asks about MENA/Africa and when they do, the result is extremely negative and increasingly so.

    In contrast, when you ask about refugees in Western Europe, it is basically a euphemism for Arabs or Africans without any real exceptions. Not so in Poland. I’ve explained this before, AK. This should not be news to you.

    Poland will not take refugees. A much bigger problem will be work-related migration:

    There are talks of doing the same with Indian and Nepalese workers.

    On a related note, one thing that was curious to me was Japan’s bizarrely high acceptance in the Pew poll. They took like 50 refugees a year ago or so but since then have taken (almost) none. That in of itself makes me kind of skeptical about how the poll is conducted, though Pew is a respected institution. Puzzling.

    P.S.

    Russian births are now at a 10 year low. So much for the fertility miracle. The crude birth rate (10.9) is only slightly higher than Poland’s.

    Tesla

    Remember that your original call was about Tesla going bankrupt, Thor. If Tesla is still standing next year, the timeframe for my bet with you, then you have lost. No amount of sidetracks can obfuscate that ;)

  7. Poland will not take refugees. A much bigger problem will be work-related migration:

    Isn’t this bizarre? Why not focus on luring Poles back working in Western Europe?

    • Replies: @AP
  8. AP says:
    @Hyperborean

    Poles can’t offer them western European salaries. But Polish salaries are great for Ukrainians, or Filipinos.

    Filipinos are much better for Poland than Arabs, Africans, gypsies, etc. Fairly safe, devoutly Roman Catholic, hardworking, pleasant attitude.

  9. @AP

    But this will still damage the cultural and social cohesion of Poland. Filipinos are still at the end of the day, a brown third world people, looked down upon all over Asia.

    Is Poland larping as Hong Kong now, with the importation of Filipinos, Nepalis, and Indians?

    That’s the exact same combination of foreign labor that Hong Kong has, with the former working largely as maids, and the latter 2 as construction workers, deliveroo drivers (completely and utterly dominated by Indians/Nepalis), and airport ramp luggage handlers. The Indians are disproportionately responsible for petty crimes, rapes, and especially public fighting than the local Chinese. A few years back they even stabbed each other to death in a metro station during morning rush hour. The most dangerous areas of Hong Kong are without a doubt the ones with the highest concentration of Indians.

    If Poland REALLY needs foreign labor, might as well keep on recruiting from Ukraine, Belarus, Russia, Serbia, and even Polish-Brazilians from Parana.

    And even then I doubt it; not everybody wants to uproot from their homes and move to third world shithole black/brown areas of London, which is where most Poles end up anyways in the UK.

    • Replies: @AP
  10. Beckow says:
    @AP

    …Poles can’t offer them western European salaries

    Raise the salaries. There is never a shortage of labor, it is always only an unwillingness to pay market rates. If there are not enough Poles at current salaries, they need to raise them. Importing Third World desperados locks in lower salaries and creates huge social issues and costs.

    I don’t understand how otherwise rational people refuse to accept that there is such a thing as a market for labor, and that supply-demand works in it the same way as in all other markets. And for those ‘businessmen’ who say that they cannot afford it: well, nobody owes you a business. If you cannot survive in business paying market salaries, maybe you shouldn’t be in business.

    • Agree: szopen, dfordoom
  11. Only half is decidedly too high.

    On the other side not long ago my first association with a word “refugee” was Poles leaving country during eighties’ Martial Law (that was haemorrhage worse that today migration).

    “Refugee crisis” was three years ago. Its hard for a nation to change associations made by this kind of generational experience. Younger people have it easier. I wonder how this poll would look when presented in age groups.

  12. neutral says:
    @AP

    No, they are non whites, they do not belong. This cucky “they are Catholics” is the fastest way to national suicide besides what Merkel did.

  13. LondonBob says:
    @Polish Perspective

    Japs can answer in the affirmative, and make themselves feel good, safe in the knowledge their answer will have no impact.

  14. LondonBob says:

    America will go bankrupt and there will be a brutal civil war leading to 15th century style Spanish expulsions.

  15. @Mr. XYZ

    If a Russian nationalist eventually replaces Putin, could we see the Eurasian Economic Union being scrapped? If so, could Russia begin the process of joining the European Union in such a scenario

    No. It has been Russia’s national policy (manifest destiny, lel) to expand into Asia for centuries. Anybody who would destroy centuries of tradition for table scraps from eurogays is not a Russian nationalist.

  16. @anonymous coward

    Russia was expanding into Asia when it had demographic momentum and (relative) technological dominance on its side.

    Neither of which applies today.

  17. when it had demographic momentum and (relative) technological dominance on its side

    Really? LMAO.

    When exactly was it when we had ‘demographic momentum’? And what was this ‘technological dominance’, exactly?

    Please don’t think in memes, they rot your brain.

    P.S. In reality, the largest expansion was in the 17th century, when Russia was literally at the lowest point in its existence.

  18. Pericles says:

    In Sweden YES, 81% are apparently in favor of more refugees, yet the pro-refugee parties slammed the borders shut (with the Minister of Finance adding “go somewhere else”) and nobody has complained very vocally about it since then.

    (Don’t be too elated, they are still arriving through other channels. But the popular support seems lacking.)

  19. Why looking at Western European countries, shouldn’t we subtract a certain percentage of non-whites to calculate ethnic European opinion?

  20. @Polish Perspective

    Russian births are now at a 10 year low. So much for the fertility miracle. The crude birth rate (10.9) is only slightly higher than Poland’s.

    Expected given the “echo” from the 90s – Karlin covered this. Crude birthrate will go up as the year draws to a close. TFR is still above Poland though, and your country is experiencing temporary jump due to PiS pro-natalist policies. BTW, I’d like you to answer this question:

    Are these kids included into Polish statistics?

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6092337/Births-percentage-foreign-women-reaches-record-high-Polish-Pakistani-parents-topping-list.html

  21. I hate to keep piling on him, but Polish Perspective really was wrong when he claimed that Russians were much more cucked on immigration than Poland. It’s sooner the opposite. Though Poland is nonetheless very based by Western standards, if not Visegrad ones.

    This poll also lends support to my idea back in that old thread that liberalizing views on social matters is a leading indicator of #RefugeesWelcome sentiments.

    You seem to argue that the Polish are now better informed about homosexuality, and therefore less sceptical, and that this change in attitudes cannot be solely attributed to ideological pressure from above, for if it were, we should expect to see similar changes in attitudes toward immigration.

    This is not a bad argument, but it leaves out the logic of creeping liberalism. The typical run liberalism has had in western Europe since universal suffrage is feminism -> LGBT rights -> multiculturalism, the logic being that conservative nuclear families are a major obstacle to mass-immigration and that feminism and LGBT rights slowly erode this element. Another argument against it is that we know that political campaigns pushed from above are sometimes very effective. I seem to recall, for instance, that anti-abortion/pro-life attitudes in the US rose steeply in the early 1990s as a direct result of conservative campaigns to sway public opinion, and what’s more, they rose not only with conservatives but also with liberals.

    http://www.unz.com/akarlin/poland-will-legalize-gay-marriage-within-10-years/

    I do think you can have one without the other, as Polish Perspective argues, but not when you are as deeply tied to the Western socioliberal order as Poland is. There is simply too much multiculti promotion, at all levels of society, for things to trend any other way.

    My glum prediction, then, is that Polish pro-refugee sentiments will go on rising for years to come, possibly followed by more liberal immigration policies. This is not a foregone conclusion, but Poles should not be cavalier about these things.

    • Replies: @Talha
    , @Nznz
    , @Nznz
  22. @anonymous coward

    My knowledge of the Asian expansion part of Russian history is limited to a few articles I read about it in SiP, but are you denying that Russians were much more advanced than the primitive tribes that sparsely populated Siberia? That was also the reason many of them joined the empire voluntarily.

    • Replies: @anonymous coward
  23. @anonymous coward

    Person with no inkling of demographic history (or much else really) tells me not to think in memes.

    With perhaps a brief interlude during a part of Peter the Great’s reign, Russia’s population has been expanding nonstop from the Time of Troubles to 1917. In particular, by its last couple of decades, it was at the early stages of the demographic transition, in which death rates fall but birth rates remain high. Meanwhile, the Central Asian populations were expanding much more slowly, with deaths much closer to births, and falling as a percentage of the Russian one. Today the situation is the precise converse of that, with Russian birth rates and death rates approximately matched, while Central Asian birth rates remain far above death rates. There are today approximately 50% as many Central Asians as Russians, which transitions to parity amongst the younger generation. In contrast, the population of Turkestan only constituted 10% relative to the population living in the borders of the present-day RF in 1897.

    The point about technology is so trivial one barely needs to mention it. But suffice to say that expanding into Manchuria today is nothing but a Duginist fantasy (another person with zero grasp of reality).

  24. @anonymous coward

    Manifest Destiny is an apt comparison. Defeating militarily weaker enemies and gaining vast terra nullius for lebensraum for growing population was a good idea for both Russia and America. However, a modern equivalent would not be a good idea.

    • Replies: @anonymous coward
  25. @Spisarevski

    are you denying that Russians were much more advanced than the primitive tribes that sparsely populated Siberia?

    I am. This isn’t some sort of fringe view, anybody who knows anything about Russian history is aware of this.

    Russia’s conquest of Siberia was done with these:

    Hardly high-tech, by any measure.

    Russia won because we were more motivated and more intelligent, simple as that.

    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
  26. @Anatoly Karlin

    Nobody said anything about Central Asia except you, for some inexplicable reason. What does Central Asia have to do with anything? Might as well mention India and boots, while you’re at it.

    Then you skip to Manchuria for another inexplicable reason.

    You are an American, so clueless on Russian history and Russian reality…

  27. @Hyperborean

    No, not apt. Russia never had a lack of living space, least of all in the 17th century, following plagues, starvation and depopulation.

    Russia lost up to a third of her population during the Time of Troubles, and then conquered Siberia just a generation or two right after.

  28. utu says:
    @AP

    Opening up to immigration for one group leads to opening up to immigration for anybody. Letting Ukrainians in was a mistake. Letting in Filipinos is the next step.

  29. AP says:
    @AquariusAnon

    I agree, and I don’t support the process. I just point out that it is much less bad than what is happening elsewhere.

  30. Mr. Hack says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    Don’t be so tough on Dugin. Perhaps his real appeal to intellectuals is his realistic vision of a Triune nation? :-)

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
  31. notanon says:

    Nationalism vs. #RefugeesWelcome

    that’s how the media will spin it but imo the reality is

    “genuine refugees” vs “those people”

    a follow up question that would tease this out might be something like

    “what percentage of current refugees into the EU (or US) are genuine refugees?”

    also implicitly”genuine refugees” shows how “not being mean” is at the core of this – hence media manipulation focuses on that aspect.

    #

    there’s an irony here in that the sort of people in the media who are trying to engineer white extinction e.g. Julia Joffe, although they justify it to themselves on the basis of the moral evil of white people they use a tactic – morality based manipulation – which belies their own self-justification – if they genuinely believed their “white debils be innately evil” meme they wouldn’t bother using moral manipulation.

    the real motivation being pure malice and ethnic hatred.

  32. notanon says:
    @anonymous coward

    90% average IQ 100 population (if iodine)
    10% average IQ 90 population

    !=

    60% average IQ 100 population (if iodine)
    40% average IQ 90 population

  33. notanon says:

    Dugin = camouflaged multicult

    • Agree: ussr andy
  34. Filipinos are fairly docile and harmless. Very nice people, almost the ideal guest workers. You never hear complaints about Filipinos. They’re also too dim to compete for high status positions, but not dumb (or aggressive) enough to cause social problems.

    The real problem will be that some Polish men will choose Filipino wives as Polish women continue to “modernize”. Filipina women are little brown fucking machines who love white men, and unlike Thai women rampant sex tourism hasn’t jaded them yet (there is sex tourism in the Philippines, but on a much lower level). Field reports from the Philippines indicate that Filipino women literally want to be knocked up by white men in general. Polish women are very busty and still thin, but there will be defections and sooner than anyone expects.

    I haven’t seen any evidence that female interracial sexual market competition causes white women to improve either (many men will start lifting weights in the face of swarthy lotharios). It seems to actually have the opposite effect on them–they get even angrier, more careerist, more feminist, and eat more food.

    Some more friction than in America can be expected owing to the language barrier as well. Most Filipinos speak English, whereas probably none speak Polish outside of the Filipino Embassy in Warsaw.

    • Replies: @Swedish Family
    , @LatW
  35. In Sweden YES, 81% are apparently in favor of more refugees, yet the pro-refugee parties slammed the borders shut (with the Minister of Finance adding “go somewhere else”) and nobody has complained very vocally about it since then.

    (Don’t be too elated, they are still arriving through other channels. But the popular support seems lacking.)

    In the SOM Institute survey of 2017 (the most widely quoted survey on Swedish attitudes to immigration), 53 percent of respondents supported the idea that Sweden should accept fewer refugees while 23 percent did not. Indeed, ever since 1990, opposition to higher immigration levels has been stronger than support for it.

    • Replies: @Beckow
  36. @Thorfinnsson

    Polish women are very busty and still thin, but there will be defections and sooner than anyone expects.

    Not any longer, sadly, although they are not quite yet at Western levels of flab.

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
  37. @Mr. Hack

    Russian nationalists (or rather East Slavic imperialists?) would do well to drop the “triune” label since it implicitly concedes the existence of independent Belorussian and Ukrainian nations.

    Just call them all Russians and compare it to regional differences in other European countries.

    Great Russians = Prussians
    Ukrainians = Austrians & Bavarians
    Belorussians = Rhinelanders and “Saxons”

  38. @Swedish Family

    Sorry to hear the bad news. This will only accelerate the rate of defection.

    I don’t understand why Poland needs guest workers from Asia when the Ukraine is next door. For that matter while living standards in Belarus are far better than the Ukraine, no doubt some might be interested in the far higher nominal wages in Poland.

    And while no nation should ever admit Balkanoid swine past its frontiers, Serbia is considerably poorer than Poland.

    Which makes the proposal quite suspicious.

    • Replies: @Nznz
  39. Beckow says:
    @Swedish Family

    That blip upwards in 2015 is worrisome, I guess the media propaganda worked on Swedes. At least temporarily.

    These surveys are flawed because the terms are badly defined and emotionally loaded. A small tweak in how the question is asked changes a large percentage of answers.

    There are also groups that should not be asked for their view: elderly or unmarried with no kids, and the immigrants themselves (10-20% in Sweden?). This is an existential issue to decide for nation’s core: married people with kids who have a stake in the future. The modern mania for ‘equality‘ is illogical and undemocratic. Why should the personal beneficiaries (migrants themselves) or people lamely living out their lives at society’s expense be consulted?

    • Replies: @Swedish Family
  40. Mr. Hack says:
    @Thorfinnsson

    Your analogy is quite inept. Unlike the Austrians and Bavarians, the Ukrainians have a separate language from Russian, not a dialect. Also, I don’t see any realistic submerging of Austria within a larger Germany anytime into the future. Ukraine has had strong separatist tendencies since at least the early 18th century and is more anti-Russian today than it ever has been. Wishful thinking of a few delusionals is no substitute for realism. The soviets tried to totally russify Ukraine for over 6o years wit a freehand and immense pressure, and it didn’t work for them and it certainly wont work today with an independent Ukrainian state. It’s totally unrealistic.

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
  41. Dmitry says:
    @Mr. XYZ

    Russia joining the EU was the plan of Mikhail Prokhorov.

    While you remain poorer than the EU average, it’s a free money transfer union to you (as well as emigration vacuum away from you). For now, for Russia, the benefits could even outweigh costs (although with size of Russian economy, probably destroying the EU budget).

    Costs and benefit ratio to a significant extent dependent on whether you are above or below their average income. You would have much more incentive to exit EU, when you reach above average income level – Ireland has been already in that position for some years, but the position of being inside the trading bloc is far too important for them ever to leave.

  42. @anonymous coward

    Obviously Russia’s massive demographic advantage over Siberian tribes and access to gunpowder weapons played no role.

    Then you skip to Manchuria for another inexplicable reason.

    You mentioned expansion into Asia. China is part of Asia.

    • Replies: @anonymous coward
  43. Talha says:
    @Swedish Family

    There is simply too much multiculti promotion, at all levels of society, for things to trend any other way.

    I tend to agree here. I remember seeing some Polish nationalists speaking about their opposition to immigrants from Muslim countries and it was basically all Left-liberal talking points; they don’t like gays, they have their women cover up, etc. Go back a few centuries and interview some Polish guy and he’d be saying; yeah sure we’re down with all that, but they’re heathens that don’t accept our lord and savior.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @songbird
  44. songbird says:
    @Talha

    There’s thought to be a class of diseases which hack an organism’s brain to spread themselves. Rabies, T. gondii… Some people believe that gayness is a disease on an even higher level – one that hacks society’s brain, or politics, to spread itself.

    Maybe, it sounds too fringe, but it seems darned hard to explain otherwise – the influence of homosexuals on politics is really incredible.

    • Replies: @Talha
    , @notanon
  45. @Thorfinnsson

    The Ukrainian – though he doesn’t identify as such – Russian nationalist Alexander Chalenko suggests calling them South Russians (южнорусские).

    This avoids the Ukrainian label, avoids insulting them with the Little Russian label (despite its inoffensive semantic origins), while firmly identifying them with the Russian label.

    I suspect that part (though not all) of the reason that almost all Belorussians consider themselves Russians – apart from a few crazy zmagars who consider themselves the descendants of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth – is because it’s right there in their name.

    • Replies: @AP
  46. AP says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    I suspect that part (though not all) of the reason that almost all Belorussians consider themselves Russians – apart from a few crazy zmagars who consider themselves the descendants of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth – is because it’s right there in their name.

    It’s not that they consider themselves to be Russians, but rather that they view Belarussian ethnicity as a quasi-Russian one.

    Part of it is the name, but mostly its because:

    1. The country was utterly demographically destroyed during World War II – as % of population more than any other. It was then rebuilt in the Sovok image. While Sovok was not Russian, it was Russian-speaking and a bridge to this quasi-Russian national self-identity. Rather like Sovok ethnic Ukrainians in the Donbas.

    2. Belarus’ “Lviv” was Vilnius (base of Belarussian nationalists-activists) , and it was lost to them.

    3. Even Vilnius was no Lviv, because the region hadn’t been subject to the Hapsburgs and the Belarussians there hadn’t achieved universal literacy among schoolchildren in a Belarussian nationalist environment, as had occurred with Ukrainians in Hapsburg-ruled Galicia.

    4. Less history of conflict with Russia (no Belarussian Mazepa, Vyhovsky, etc.)

    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
  47. @Mr. Hack

    My post was not taxonomic.

    Just branding.

    “Triune nation” concedes the existence of separate East Slavic nationalities, which Russian nationalists oppose.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  48. @Polish Perspective

    Thanks for the data.

    Just to confirm I do consider Poland to be based. But all things are relative, and in these surveys, Poland does tend to be reliably less based than Hungary, and often Czechia (apart from social matters ofc).

    I doubt the meaning of refugees will differ cardinally between the V4 countries?

    It’s true that the word “refugee” has been sullied in recent years in Poland, but for us it has mixed connotations. That’s why CBOS specifically asks about MENA/Africa and when they do, the result is extremely negative and increasingly so.

    From the data it seems that about 25%-30% of Poles are usually open to taking in MENA/African refugees. Though as you mentioned the youth are more based, and society seems to be getting more based as well in recent months, which are good things. See, I do read you.

    Still, I very much doubt that more than 30% of Russians would be open to taking in MENA/African refugees, in fact based on the lack of enthusiasm for refugees in general, I’d guess closer to 15%. (In principle, I too would be completely open to taking in refugees “fleeing violence and war” in the Ukraine – and such a view is hardly atypical. So as you can see, Russia’s numbers in this particular poll would also be distorted upwards for non-cucked reasons).

    This is in response to your original assertion in that thread that Russians’ high support for “diversity” meant that we are cucked on multiculturalism (making their “based” positions on homos and so forth meaningless).

    But other people in that thread argued that it was “diversity” which meant different things in Poland vs. Russia (in Russia, equivalent to West European multiculturalism; in Russia, equivalent to the default state of affairs in Russia), and all these polls I’ve cited cited and highlighted have demonstrated that they were correct.

    • Replies: @szopen
  49. @Thorfinnsson

    Russian nationalists (or rather East Slavic imperialists?) would do well to drop the “triune” label since it implicitly concedes the existence of independent Belorussian and Ukrainian nations.

    Just call them all Russians and compare it to regional differences in other European countries.

    Great Russians = Prussians
    Ukrainians = Austrians & Bavarians
    Belorussians = Rhinelanders and “Saxons”

    This is a good idea that aligns well with how Putin already address Belarusans and Ukrainians. The general principle is that you make the Russian tent the biggest in the land (for Eastern Slavs) while forcing Belarusans and Ukrainians to minimize theirs; or put another way, your identity should be made maximally inclusive while that of your challengers should be made, by crook or hook, maximally exclusive. How this works in practice is that you provoke radicalization and purification spirals in your challengers’ ranks, while keeping a strong lid on these same tendencies in your own. This way, you will soon look the adult in the room and have the silent majority on your side.

    • Replies: @Joach
  50. @AP

    1. The country was utterly demographically destroyed during World War II – as % of population more than any other.

    Not sure this has anything to do with it, unless the demographic devastation was highly differentiated by region. But if anything I suspect it was worse in the more Russian east.

    The roots of Russian identity in White Russia are also deeper in the Ukraine. There was actual discontent in the 1920s amongst Belorussians when the Bolsheviks insisted they start schooling in Belorussian, correctly viewing it as a useless peasant language.

    1. Когда впервые здесь насильно, т. е. без всякого плебисцита, стали вводить в школы, в учреждения белорусский язык, то население отнеслось к этой реформе настолько отрицательно, что в деревнях стали раздаваться такие голоса:

    - Сначала к нам пришли немцы, потом поляки, а теперь идут на нас… белорусы…

    Т. е. население стало считать белорусизаторов своими… врагами.

    I will admit that that’s exceedingly hard to imagine happening in the Ukrainian territories.

  51. @Beckow

    That blip upwards in 2015 is worrisome, I guess the media propaganda worked on Swedes. At least temporarily.

    These surveys are flawed because the terms are badly defined and emotionally loaded. A small tweak in how the question is asked changes a large percentage of answers.

    There are also groups that should not be asked for their view: elderly or unmarried with no kids, and the immigrants themselves (10-20% in Sweden?). This is an existential issue to decide for nation’s core: married people with kids who have a stake in the future. The modern mania for ‘equality‘ is illogical and undemocratic. Why should the personal beneficiaries (migrants themselves) or people lamely living out their lives at society’s expense be consulted?

    All good points. But the present figure of 53 % (for 2017 — the results for 2018 will be released only in spring 2019) lines up pretty well with the results in the election three weeks ago if we account for the percentage of voters in each party who are open to their party collaborating with the Sweden Democrats (1/10th of Centern voters, 1/5th of Liberalerna voters, and so on).

    The figure would be even higher if we looked only at ethnic Swedes, of course, and higher still if we looked only at ethnic Swedish men. My rough estimate is that a good three quarters of ethnic Swedish men now support more or less reduced immigration. So that’s not nothing.

    • Replies: @szopen
  52. @Anatoly Karlin

    Obviously Russia’s massive demographic advantage over Siberian tribes and access to gunpowder weapons played no role.

    No need for sarcasm. These factors unironically didn’t play a role, since Siberia was colonized by loners who used iron-age technology. (Think fur trappers.)

    They won because they were tougher, stronger and smarter than the bugman natives.

    If you’re going to stick around in Russia, you’ll need to learn you some Russian history. It’s a hugely fascinating topic that was suppressed by the USSR.

    (Start with reading some of Alexey Ivanov’s fiction, he’s awesome.)

    • Replies: @notanon
  53. Talha says:
    @songbird

    For us, this is kind of inevitable since there is a kind of general breakdown of society that will occur as the world transitions into end game. There are hadith which talk about the spread of homosexuality as the harbinger of The Hour. There was a Catholic historian I respect (to me, many of the Catholic intellectuals saw what was coming), Christopher Dawson, who stated:
    “A society which has lost its religion becomes sooner or later a society which has lost its culture.”

    If I was to put aside religious interpretation and look at the Earth from a kind of self-contained equilibrium perspective it seems that homosexuality rates are correlating highly with advanced societies. From the perspective of a ball spinning through space, one hominid is essentially the same as another – though if you look at energy per capita consumption, some hominids are 25 or more times the burden of others (compare some guy in a high rise in New York to a Kenyan hunter-gatherer). In that sense, infecting the heavy-load hominids with things like homosexuality or atheism or feminism or whatever to cull their numbers certainly makes sense to bring things back to equilibrium. Just thinking out of the box…

    Peace.

  54. szopen says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    The problem as I see it is not that people are opposed NOT ENOUGH to the refugees from MENA. The problem is that when they say they are opposed, they feel they need to justify their position by platitudes “they are not real refugees”, “they won’t respect our values” and so on. The basic position should be “we don’t want them and we don’t have to explain why”. As soon as we state explaining there is a door for shaming tactics etc.

    • Agree: utu
    • Replies: @Beckow
  55. szopen says:
    @Swedish Family

    The figure would be even higher if we looked only at ethnic Swedes, of course, and higher still if we looked only at ethnic Swedish men.

    It’s not nothing, but it’s still too small, too late. Stopping immigration NOW will only delay the inevitable (or make it less visible and therefore, more palatable to the frogs being boiled slowly).

    The real question is how many of them would support the deportations.

  56. Mr. Hack says:
    @Thorfinnsson

    You should be directing your line of thought to Karlin who is a Russian nationalist who upholds the Triune theory (at least I think he does?). I think that it’s ludicrous to think that a Ukrainian should admit he’s a Russian whether or not it’s presented under a Triune umbrella or not. They’re two separate nationalities!

  57. notanon says:
    @songbird

    Maybe, it sounds too fringe, but it seems darned hard to explain otherwise

    in a lot of old history books like Gibbon’s decline and fall of Rome the idea that all these ancient empires contracted some kind of “decadence” was pretty much the standard theory. back when i was a good little sjw i used to think it was a silly prejudice but now i wonder.

    it doesn’t have to be homosexuality per se but a correlation i.e. imperialism opens a people up to distant pathogens they have no resistance to which mess them up in various ways.

    if correct then China’s recent exposure to parts of the world they avoided in the past will lead to an epidemic of paraphilia.

    • Replies: @songbird
  58. notanon says:
    @anonymous coward

    100 tough trappers win a fight with a 100 natives
    ->
    50/50 final mix

    100 tough trappers win a fight with 100 natives
    +
    1000 new settlers who move in after it’s safe
    ->
    11:1 final mix

  59. Beckow says:
    @szopen

    …when they say they are opposed, they feel they need to justify their position by platitudes “they are not real refugees”, “they won’t respect our values”…

    That’s the key issue. Once you get into a discussion you are already negotiating and you lose. The idea that old, national societies in Europe must open themselves to mass migration from the Third World is preposterous. Imagine arguing that a few generations back, or suggesting that Tunisia, Uganda or Kashmir ‘must’ open to mass migration.

  60. To what extent does this survey question accurately and precisely describe voters’ desires in terms of immigration policy?

    I ask because I notice that, for instance, US and Japanese respondents have quite similar (~30% oppose, ~66% support) margins. Yet obviously the US government has much more expansive refugee immigration programs than the Japanese government, and President Trump’s proposed curtailing of some of these programs is viewed as representing a relatively far right position within mainstream US politics. Whereas not having such programs would seem to be relatively uncontroversial in Japanese politics.

    I do think that this data is useful, though, in casting doubt on the frequent and often unsourced assertions of ethnic nationalists that a vast super-majority of citizens support hard-line immigration restriction, and that it’s only perfidious elites who favor/don’t oppose immigration. Certainly, a larger fraction of ordinary citizens views immigration restriction as desirable compared to the discourse of financial/cultural/political elites, but in most non-Eastern European white countries they’re still a minority of voters. (For better or for worse.)

    • Replies: @dfordoom
  61. songbird says:
    @notanon

    Some people think that, if you dug up the skeletons, and managed to sequence the DNA, you’d see a measurable dysgenic trend leading up to the collapse.

    The Roman Empire is so fascinating because it lasted for a good deal of time, unlike, say, the Mongol Empire. It was something that had some level of structural stability that existed for hundreds of years and then almost utterly collapsed.

    It’s such an interesting mystery. If the rot was cultural, then how was it transmitted? Was literacy really that high? Or didn’t it matter? Was it bread and circuses, the welfare state, or was it enough that the elites were corrupt?

    I like to blame technology as weaponizing some of these SWJ instincts that would be relatively harmless otherwise, but technology was relatively stagnant in the Roman era, so maybe that’s not the answer at all.

    Probably the most important historical mystery.

  62. LatW says:
    @Thorfinnsson

    Field reports from the Philippines indicate that Filipino women literally want to be knocked up by white men in general. Polish women are very busty and still thin, but there will be defections and sooner than anyone expects.

    They are no competition for us. Our men (Polish, Baltic, Ukrainian, Northern Russian) strongly prefer tall, fair looking women. They are used to their women’s personalities. The defections you talk about (in the West) are mostly by women who do not choose to date the kind of men (yes, even young ones) who go for Asian women. That said, yes, Filipinos are hard working and I generally respect them, but they already have a home and it is not the Intermarium. If some men choose Asian, they should go to Asia. I understand that love is love but we shouldn’t have to pay for these couples and, even more so, in the future, them having kids would reduce the dating options for the children of the core Intermarium populations (the way it is already happening in the US).

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
  63. LatW says:

    There will be two fights in the EE when it comes to human resources (and they will both be savage but that’s ok as long as we can have at least some success). The first should be against the international (and local) immigration lobby – we will have to differentiate (and argue very clearly and convincingly) about which industries should exist and which should be limited or re-organized in a certain way (of course, businesses should be given some time to adjust to this new reality of more expensive labor). For instance, in this latest debate in Poland (and it’s amazing how all it takes is a few years of decent growth and you need to import Indians!) – one of the anti-immigration activists rightfully asked whether “we really need all those UberEats services”. We should ask – who will own this business and where will the profits go? How much will they pay in taxes over a certain period of time? Have they done everything to hire locals and to make it more attractive to them (good insurance, other perks, etc)? What is the plan for growing salaries? How essential are these services? What’s the corporate responsibility angle? The last thing we need is foreign owned companies pressuring our governments to liberalize immigration policies and alter our population so that they can have access to cheap labor, make money and then expatriate the profits – now, that’s not going to fly and we need to speak clearly and directly about that straight off the bat. First, to our own populations in order to get their full support and then in meetings with foreign investors’ councils. International companies must understand that they are not entitled to our population and that what they had thus far was a luxury – of course, it is nice to have a workforce where young, multi-lingual, diligent and tidy people are willing to work for 500eu endlessly! Yes, we all love to be served by a very young, attractive person, but in countries such as Germany and France there are actually old people working as servers at restaurants and it works fine, they get tips, etc. On the US West coast you’ll get served by a dude with a large, visible leg tattoo who will expect a 15% tip from you. The companies also need to understand that immigrants age, and that if they want to maintain a high quality work force, let’s say, 20 years from now (when many of these companies will still have presence in the EE market), then they need to nurture that workforce, invest in it and invest in that higher quality population in general.

    The growth should slow down in the coming years (how long can this optimism last – there might even be a recession at some point soon) and it will hopefully ease the situation (but the problem won’t go away, of course).

    The second battle will be for attracting quality resources and here the EE countries need to become much more aggressive first of all in repatriating their people from the UK, Ireland, etc. We need to establish special offices that would use the latest recruitment practices to source potential labor from the diaspora (there are repatriation programs that provide assistance but we need to go even further and do the whole recruitment cycle and actual placements for companies, government institutions, etc). Up to 30% want to return (among them families with children). We need to actively identify and recruit them – yes, it might be expensive but it is much better than taking in Asians. There is simply no comparison!

    We need to control the narrative (as mentioned above by Beckow et al) and we need to cultivate our own populations instead of constantly looking for the next best country to source from. Yes, Belorussians and Ukrainians are great to have but by taking them in we’re actually hurting their countries (some Belorussian nationalists are actually getting quite apprehensive looking at all this immigration of Ukrainians to Poland because they’re afraid that this could happen to Belorussians, too, and in fact has already been happening to some extent). They’re great for highly skilled labor though.

    Another idea – why would Poland pay $2B to Americans to set up a military base, when this money could go to pay their own men? Invest in your own men, raise the officers’ salaries, raise the status of soldiers and the national guard, this will make them more attractive for marriage and eventually that could even raise the birthrate.

    For Russian (and Polish) speakers, here is a video from an immigration debate at the Jagiellonian Club (posted by Tomasz Maciejczuk):

    The nationalist leaning guy is saying that is important to keep Poland at least 96% Polish (as it is now) and very rightfully calls for a potential referendum on whether the Poles would accept the multicultural voting patterns that would inevitably arise from increased numbers of immigrants. The other (pro-capital) dude is saying that there are 20K Vietnamese in Warsaw and because they work and behave themselves, people mostly don’t mind (it’s funny, he says that people don’t even mind migrants who wear a “turban”, lol, as long as they work, the “turban” being a big deal here). To which the protectionist guy answers that this isn’t about race but about culture and the potential changes to the culture. It’s funny how the pro-business guy says that at his restaurant there are 3 Ukrainians out of 11 employees and the young Ukrainian woman that works for him is apparently “already Polonized”, and the other guy answers, well, yea, because there are only 3! And then suggests he go to Wroclaw which is now partly Ukrainianized. LOL. Oh, gosh, these Slavs! They even assimilate each other so quickly. :)

    • Replies: @Mitleser
    , @Thorfinnsson
  64. dfordoom says: • Website
    @anonymous coward

    No. It has been Russia’s national policy (manifest destiny, lel) to expand into Asia for centuries. Anybody who would destroy centuries of tradition for table scraps from eurogays is not a Russian nationalist.

    Agreed.

  65. dfordoom says: • Website
    @Stolen Valor Detective

    To what extent does this survey question accurately and precisely describe voters’ desires in terms of immigration policy?

    When you’re talking about public opinion it’s always a good idea to remember that 90% of the public don’t actually have an opinion. They simply conform to what seems to be the popular view based on what they see on TV or on social media. If that popular view seems to change then “public opinion” will change.

    Very few people are prepared to hold an opinion if they are convinced that such opinion is unpopular. Most people for example are disgusted by homosexuality but they conform to what appears to be the popular line that homosexuality is awesome.

    The purpose of public opinion polls is not to measure public opinion but to create public opinion.

    • Replies: @LondonBob
  66. LondonBob says:
    @dfordoom

    Hungary’s results highlight the importance of the powers that be in influencing public opinion, or at least what can be expressed publicly.

  67. Mitleser says:
    @LatW

    Another idea – why would Poland pay $2B to Americans to set up a military base, when this money could go to pay their own men? Invest in your own men, raise the officers’ salaries, raise the status of soldiers and the national guard, this will make them more attractive for marriage and eventually that could even raise the birthrate.

    Because the latter cannot be used for lobbying in America and tie the American establishment to Poland.

  68. Nznz says: • Website
    @Swedish Family

    Are you people really sure that banning gay pride parades and keeping LBGTs in the closet, with violence if necessary, is a hill that the alright wants to die on?

  69. Nznz says: • Website
    @Swedish Family

    Are you people really sure that banning gay pride parades and keeping LBGTs in the closet, with violence if necessary, is a hill that the alright wants to die on?

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
  70. Nznz says: • Website
    @Thorfinnsson

    What about Macedonians and Greeks?

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
  71. @Nznz

    Are you people really sure that banning gay pride parades and keeping LBGTs in the closet, with violence if necessary, is a hill that the alright wants to die on?

    Few are going to die on that hill, if for nothing else, because most won’t even consider it a hill.

  72. @LatW

    There will be competition. American men started importing Asian wives almost immediately after the beginning of the permanent military presence in Asia, which was before American women developed their legendary reputation for obesity.

    I am not insulting Eastern European women, who have a deservedly good reputation globally.

    But when there’s competition in the market, any market, some people choose what other sellers are offering. And if Swedish Family and some others are right, it appears the market power of Eastern European women is now in decline.

    It works the other way as well of course, and no doubt you could furnish me with examples of deficient men and cite various reasons.

    I agree that men who choose Asians should go to Asia, because they’re no longer our men are they? Likewise women who choose…whatever…should emigrate to whatever.

    Personally I think that these market options should be prohibited by the state. A country should have a population policy just as it has economic and foreign policies.

    • Replies: @LatW
  73. @Nznz

    I don’t know anything about the “Macedonian” diaspora.

    The Greek diaspora is good, and in any case Greeks deserve a legacy exemption.

  74. LatW says:
    @Thorfinnsson

    permanent military presence in Asia

    The military is not the best example – while soldiers are attractive, it is a very specific profession and their relationships are not that stable. If we look at “normal” people – white American women in general don’t have major problems finding a mate. Even with all the issues, the women who want to marry, eventually do (mostly for love, it seems), or are in LTRs. Even re-marry in many cases. A lot of Asians have arrived in the big cities, so there might be some issues there, but it seems that white guys still prefer white women. This might be even more prevalent in smaller towns (where white people tend to be more attractive). The ones with Filipino wives are typically older guys.

    So where is the problem – that some nerdy data scientist in San Francisco dates an ambitious Asian female doctor? White women still have options. Same thing with Nordics. Even though there are immigrants, most Nordics date other Nordics. Men in places like Svalbard import Thai women because there are no women there at all. Btw, many Swedish men are even skeptical about having Slavic wives.

    it appears the market power of Eastern European women is now in decline.

    The value of marriage age EE women is actually rising as we speak, at least in their home countries. It’s sheer numbers – the male shortage is over since men have started taking care of themselves. Also, the 1990s demographic collapse is already having an effect – let’s take a relatively large EE country, where in 1987 300K girls were born (and roughly the same number of boys), but in 1997 – only 200K. In some E.Slavic countries it may be even more dramatic. There is now a much, much smaller number of women approaching marital age, and a larger number of men (in all age groups combined in fact, 21-45 or so) who will compete for them (even if many people are paired up, this dynamic will prevail in the singles market). The dating market has already changed significantly from how it was just 10 years ago (that’s what men themselves admit on internet forums – that it used to be much easier). The marriage rates are slowly rising, I imagine, at least partly due to these pressures on men to “seal the deal”.

    Re: attractiveness levels, there is still a long way to go before it becomes like in the West. You gotta understand that the lifestyles and beauty standards are still quite different. And as I mentioned above, men will still do the women that are available. Will some men choose Asian women, sure. But for most men it’s a big step to take. Most simply will not be that attracted (especially for having kids). We’re talking about some of the tallest populations in the world, and men who prefer elongated oval faces with dainty European features. For many of our men, these Filipino women would literally be half their height. (Btw, it’s really unfair to the Filipino men to put them in this environment).

    EE women will not lack suitors (not that they ever did), there are many options (although EE women should be protected much more and married off to local men early (or in LTRs) – this is what most of them want anyway). No, the competition comes only from the neighboring states and in some extremely rare cases now from some Western countries (our athletes are pretty attractive and they travel a lot). But in general, most people still date their own. And in the case of Poland, I suspect that most of these foreign migrants are young males.

    Anyway, needless to say, this is all quite sad. My biggest issue though is not so much the dating options for women right now, but the dating options for the future generations – as more people mix, the children of European parents who want to date within their heritage will see their options shrinking.

    Personally I think that these market options should be prohibited by the state. A country should have a population policy just as it has economic and foreign policies.

    Absolutely agree – a no brainer. To let it go unmanaged is madness. The problem is that even if political narratives and policies could be manipulated, people desire personal freedom above all. Ideally some kind of a functional and homogenous society should be achieved where default, healthy dating options should be maintained but there is still some internal freedom, with no negative outside influences. Don’t know if that’s possible.

  75. Filipino wives

    Buyer beware!

    I don’t see my neighbor Frank much, even though he lives right across the street. He’s a bit reclusive… or whatever you call someone who keeps all the windows in his house papered over with aluminum foil. But I hear (through my kindly neighbor, who’s really in the loop on our cul-de-sac) that he was so set on marrying a virgin that he sent for one by mail, all the way from the Philippines. Unfortunately, after several years of marital bliss, she high-tailed it back to Manila. He still sends her money, though, so he must remember her fondly.

    Fresh, tender cherry blossoms… or iron butterflies?

    In my line of work, I get to meet quite a few of these odd couples. A few years ago, a middle-aged Boeing machinist with a pronounced limp and one crusty eye swaggered into the office, towing a tiny, limpid Vietnamese girl who looked barely pubescent. “She needs to learn her some English,” he growled. “I warn you, though, she’s a real beginner. She no speak English good,” he bellowed the last pidgin sentence into her ear.

    I began to assess her proficiency by asking her name. She looked at me, mute and apparently bewildered, although, as is often the case, her control of the language increased exponentially once Big Daddy was banished from the room.

    It didn’t surprise me that she turned out to be a stellar student and is now enrolled in college studying to be an RN. In another year she will graduate and be ready to dump the lame-ass who brought her here and subsidized her education. Sure, his heart will be broken at first, but then hoo boy! will he be pissed off! Especially since Washington is a community property state.

    http://rooshnme.blogspot.com/2014/07/foreign-brides.html

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
  76. @Toronto Russian

    I can understand it if they are in the same country and in the same social circles, but I find men who search for foreign wives from the other half of the world to be peculiar.

  77. Joach says:
    @Swedish Family

    I agree with Karlin that the South Russian label for Ukrainians sounds better (no demeaning) than “Little” Russians, and that Belorussians having Rus in their ethnicity and country name makes it logical for them to feel Russian, and the Russian language is almost universal in Belarus.

    On the issue of language, a solid majority of Ukrainians speak Russian, even in Central Ukraine where the dialect may differ a little, communication is not an issue. Kiev, Kharkiv and Odessa are Russian-speaking cities, as is Eastern and Southern Ukraine.

    The problem with helping your enemies become maximally exclusive is that if it works — as opposed to undermining them — you’re toast. It can help in two ways, but it’s still a gamble: in elections, where your side gains strength and can stall the plans of your enemies or advance your interests, or in the event of an invasion where people stay neutral or aid you, as opposed to being hostile.

    In the event of a Russian invasion of Ukraine, which I admit is not going to happen anytime soon (bar a conflict in the Azov Sea), would have to stop before Galicia, which will become an useful region to deport troublemakers. I’m skeptical that Ukrainians would rise up against Russian rule outside of Galicia.

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