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So Russiagate 2017 ends in Muellergate 2019.

As was pretty clear at the start – as people such as Glenn Greenwald, Aaron Mate, Robert Parry, and Alexander Mercouris have been writing all these years. Manafort, its most prominent casualty, had worked to draw the Ukraine in the West’s orbit (hilariously, he kind of belatedly succeeded). All indictments have been based on criminal issues such as tax evasion, not collusion with Russia.

Still, this conspiracy theory’s instigators reached their goals.

There has been no reset in US-Russia relations; instead, they have reached unprecedented levels of mutual antipathy. Americans, especially Democrats, hate Russia more than ever. It appears that a Cold War II is locked in for at least the next decade.

The US will face the Chinese challenge to its hegemony from 2025 with Russia as a party that is decidedly friendly to China. This, perhaps, won’t quite be ideal for Russia either; US economic sabotage will hurt its growth prospects, and will make it more dependent on China than it would have been otherwise. Still, I suspect that Kissinger would agree that it is ultimately the US that got the short end of the stick.

 
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  1. Could someone update me what the report contained?

    I wanted to read up on it, but then it disappeared from my Facebook wall without ever really appearing there, so I believe it was a nothingburger. Maybe tomorrow I’ll spend some time reading some articles (or a Steve Sailer comment thread) about it.

    • Replies: @Hail
  2. anon[330] • Disclaimer says:

    China gained most. There has been a pretend war with Russia while China rapidly overtakes US as the biggest Economy, and increasingly (5G and more) the most sophisticated technology.

    The Russia phobia has been such good news for China, that surely it has to be investigated.

    But come the big US China trade wars there was never any doubt where Russia would be. The US uses them as a “look what sanctions might do to you” warning to other states (hence the rather silly bragging about how they are bringing Russia (and Venezuela and Iran) down.

    • Replies: @Endgame Napoleon
    , @neutral
  3. Trump and/or Kushner must have something to hide.

    The threat of an open-ended investigation successfully coerced Trump into abandoning the America First platform on which he was elected, and instead enacting the same old stale invade-the-world/invite-the-world policies that Jeb or Hillary would have enacted.

    It is plausible to imagine Trump and/or Kushner being guilty of almost any high crime or misdemeanor whatsoever, other than colluding with Russia.

    • Replies: @Hail
    , @El Dato
  4. anon[417] • Disclaimer says:

    I think it could be much worse than that. By 2025, the Europeans could be warming up to the Russians as well if the democrats go off the rails with anti-European hate; at some point, Europeans are going to take notice and stop thinking it’s merely “anti-white/conservative” rhetoric and notice that it’s directed at them: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/aug/25/new-york-christopher-columbus-statue-de-blasio This could mean the US is possibly completely isolated outside of resource-poor countries like Japan and tin pot dictatorships in the Middle East and maybe Canada and some other weak vassals in South America. I think we are witnessing the self-destruction of an empire. Is anyone going to step in and put a stop it or will entropy win out in the end?

    • Replies: @Beckow
  5. @anon

    China has about 7% GDP growth for 4 reasons:

    1) millions of offshored manufacturing jobs, including over 6 million offshored from the USA just between 2000 — 2010;

    2) lots of hijacked tech secrets and counterfeiting of American-designed products that are sold into its massive internal market of over 1 billion humans;

    3) a wide open gate to the American & European markets as the dominate exporter, like the US was to war-torn Europe after WWII;

    4) an infrastructure stimulus that is FDR-on-steroids or at least equivalent to the Green New Deal, in which they have built barren ghost town after barren ghost town, even building a full-scale, uninhabited replica of Manhattan, all to keep their underemployed males from rioting.

    During the Chinese economic buildup—which coincides with the 40-year wage decline for the bottom 80% and the dismantling of the American middle class—were all of the other global citizens and the many American-in-name-only corporations in China paying more taxes than Manafort, prey tell?

    America’s $21 trillion national debt says no, they weren’t, including companies like the zombie GE that paid zero taxes in some years, but still could not balance their books.

    The people who offshored, outsourced and displaced the American middle class with mass-scale, welfare-aided, wage-undercutting Third World immigrant labor are so very much more patriotic than Manafort. They have really strengthened the USA, rather than fattening their own pocket books.

    Before FDR’s China-grade infrastructure stimulus, America had negative GDP, and between the New Deal’s inception and WWII, GDP grew to over 9%, staying there the whole time except during one pre-war year, in which it dipped down.

    After the war, we were the great manufacturer, with a market to dominate in war-ravaged Europe.

    If American elites had not ransacked the US Treasury over the last few decades, leaving the USA $21 trillion in debt, we might have been able to ramp up US GDP in a way that would generate enough jobs for the 95 million out-of-the-laborforce citizens between the ages of 16 and 65, plus better jobs for half of the so-called “employed” persons in this country who only work part-time.

    That would bring in more income tax money to make up for some of the money that global elites do not pay, preferring to spend their unprecedented, concentrated-cubed riches on global enterprise that provides jobs abroad, beefing up the tax revenue of foreign nations.

    It would also shore up the SS trust fund, which is no longer running surpluses. Illegal aliens with prolifically womb-productive wives and girlfriends, pumping out US-born kids and working on the cheap for the rich, need to stay below the earned-income limits for the multiple monthly welfare programs that cover their major household bills, enabling them to work for low pay. So, they present only traceable income to caseworkers, while still cashing those refundable child tax credits up to $6,431 that additionally reward them for sex, reproduction and part-time, under-the-table work.

    One problem: Even if the US had the money for an infrastructure-renewal stimulus, most of the jobs would go to noncitizens, with elites pocketing the labor cost savings from employing welfare-eligible foreign nationals with stimulus money from .Gov.

    Another problem: The USA is $21 trillion in debt after decades of financial chicanery—far beyond Paul Manafort’s part, albeit due to his spending patterns he is a colorful scapegoat. They always are, the scapegoats. That way, attention is detracted from the activites of the other, many global elites and all of their global wheeler-dealing at the expense of the US middle class.

    Some say that China—in all of their 5-G super-surveilling glory—is even deeper in debt, with even less oversight outside of the mercantilist boundaries of its state-owned bank. Its shadow-banking industry has supposedly financed a lot of that construction-stimulus frenzy without backing up the loans with collateral.

    • Replies: @ThreeCranes
  6. Hail says: • Website
    @reiner Tor

    It has not been ‘released’ yet. It’s unclear when it will be. Also unclear: When a full form of the report is released, what % will be censored because reasons.

    As of “Announcement +30 hours” (i.e., as of this comment), conflicting information is bouncing around the U.S. media on when it will be released. Some say a summary is imminent. The full report may not be released for a while.

  7. Hail says: • Website
    @John Gruskos

    Kushner being guilty of almost any high crime or misdemeanor

    Please, Dear God, let it be so.

    #ImpeachKushner

    • Replies: @John Gruskos
  8. Anonymous[151] • Disclaimer says:
    @Hail

    We don’t know exactly what it contains but from what I understand the critical part is what it doesn’t contain, namely recommendations for any further indictments. There is no “smoking gun” evidence of collusion so Mueller is not recommending any further prosecutions. My guess it will probably contain a lot of evidence of sleazy dealings on the part of Trump and his associates that don’t really qualify as “criminal.” Certainly no “Putin has a tape of prostitutes peeing on Trump and is using it to blackmail him” (what a deranged fantasy that sounds when you write it out, and yet so many Dems believed and probably still believe it!)

    Of course there are still plenty of other Congressional subcommittees and state prosecutors investigating Trump for “misusing inauguration funds” and other picayune crap. The Democrats have weaponized the judicial system to an absurd degree; they will regret it when a Dem takes office and Republicans return the favor (especially if that Dem is a cartoonishly shady operator like Kamala Harris).

    I’m more sanguine about the possibility of improved Russian-US relations, but I agree with AK: a tacky reality TV star defeated the embodiment of trite neoliberal feminism, and based on this to create a major geopolitical disturbance because the election result is offensive to your bourgeois sensibilities…this is like the antithesis of realpolitik. Dreampolitik?

    • Replies: @Pericles
  9. “Still, this conspiracy theory’s instigators reached their goals.”

    their goal was to derail trump, and they succeeded.

    his presidency was undermined from day 1 and the entire first 2 years were largely wasted on the russia hoax. furthermore, the left successfully attacked his campaign people, in several instances, outrageously, flagrantly illegal abuses of power, the kind of thing that is civil war stuff. breaking into offices, pre-dawn raids, centuries of established US law – ignored in naked openly political attack after attack.

    more importantly, any time time trump was about to have a political success, traitor mueller and his allies would publicly arrest or indict one of trump’s campaign people. it was done over and over, deliberately timed, and on purpose, with extensive collusion from the leftist media. when they knew something was coming up on trump’s schedule and he was about to have a success, or, he was out of the country, they would spring another attack. it was used over and over to halt trump’s political momentum.

    the message was sent – if you’re thinking about helping trump, don’t. if you’re thinking of working on the trump 2020 campaign – don’t. if you think this is america anymore, don’t. the entire US government is completely captured by the left, now watch us ignore every law in the book, while we punish republicans for the laws we actually broke.

    the left expected this wonderful process to go on the entire 4 years, all the way to the 2020 election. and it would have, if trump had not fired jeff sessions. mueller would still be investigating trump in october 2020 if it was up to the left.

    jeff sessions was the worst attorney general is history. and that’s saying something, considering some of the ones the democrats have had. he crippled trump immediately and did absolutely nothing while trumps enemies, america’s enemies really, ran wild for years. as soon as barr came in, the traitor’s wild run ended. also, it wasn’t a coincidence at all that almost every single person attacking trump was one of (them).

    • Agree: utu
  10. Priss Factor [AKA "Asagirian"] says: • Website

    This, perhaps, won’t quite be ideal for Russia either; US economic sabotage will hurt its growth prospects, and will make it more dependent on China than it would have been otherwise.

    Russians really need to get their act together. With all that land and resources, Russia alone can become a superpower. Russians are uniquely blessed due to geography but they keep falling short.

    What’s wrong with Russians?

  11. agree with anatoly. this hurt US-russia relations. unsure of the long term implications though, if any.

    leftists are airheaded, trend following robots with the memory of a gold fish. after finding that the russia thing just has no traction, they could quickly move on to the next total bullshit lie about blormf/republicans and stick with that one for years. it’s not for certain at all that the left will stomp around for a decade screaming about russia and maintain some burning grudge against them. that’s more of a neocon thing.

    mainstream leftists could lose interest in this russia angle rapidly now that it has little purchase. the left leadership makes up total bullshit lies pretty easily, and spread them rapidly, so we’ll watch for that. maybe “Blormf is a white nationalist! Prove he’s not!” will be the next tactic.

  12. “The threat of an open-ended investigation”

    the most wildly unamerican, flagrantly unconstitutional thing possible. third world banana republic shithole territory. use the entire government’s resources on a unlimited, untimed, open ended proctological examination of your political enemies.

    give any second rate democrat lawyer such power and they could make sure half the posters on unz.com get locked away in jail for years. do we think anybody here is totally safe from a politically hostile, extremely motivated, legally unrestrained prosecutor with collaborator judges and district attorneys everywhere?

    there couldn’t be a bigger pile of bullshit in the world than such a thing as an open ended investigation. again, not a coincidence at all that it was instigated by the left and largely driven by (them).

    • Agree: Guillaume Durocher
    • Replies: @The Anti-Gnostic
  13. Hillary should be condemned to a cell with nothing but a big red Reset button. She can contemplate that while she serves out her term.

  14. @Priss Factor

    People have been asking that for 300 years. Really about the only thing they’re good at is winning wars. DC should take note.

    • Replies: @El Dato
  15. Mr. Hack says:

    What’s wrong with Russians?

    For one thing, they’ve been incredibly adept at backing the wrong leadership within Ukraine. Putin had invested a lot of his own credibility in backing the thuggish Yanukovych twice during Ukrainian elections. What did he get in return? A Yanukovych who showed his gratitude to his benefactor by pursuing a pro EU course instead of backing Putin’s growing Eurasian Union economic and political projections. Yanukovych had failed miserably in bringing Ukraine into the Russian world configuration ultimately subjecting Russia to become the world’s pariah, and then Putler decides to give Yanukovych a safe haven after he got his sorry as run out of town? I guess he expected to somehow keep Yanukovych under wraps, in case he could ever be brought out of mothballs for a second resurrection. LOL with that Putler! 🙂

    • Replies: @Anon
  16. @Hail

    It has not been ‘released’ yet. It’s unclear when it will be.

    But you can already reserve your copy on Amazon, with an introduction by Alan Dershowitz, for a reduced price of $9.20 (list price $12.99).

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
  17. @for-the-record

    But you can already reserve your copy on Amazon, with an introduction by Alan Dershowitz, for a reduced price of $9.20 (list price $12.99).

    Isn’t information released to the public supposed to be gratis?

  18. @Hyperborean

    A pdf from the DoJ website presumably will be made publicly available.

    But almost thousand pages makes hard read from a computer screen, and as an IRL object, it will be an impressive tome.

    I think the sales expectations just dropped a lot.

  19. Mitleser says:
    @Priss Factor

    uniquely blessed due to geography

    Like Mexico is blessed due to being right next to the USA.

    Read https://www.unz.com/akarlin/reconsidering-parshev/

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  20. El Dato says:
    @John Gruskos

    Everybody has something to hide.

    And Trump is a very smooth operator, he must have had extensive dealings with the mob, jewish or otherwise.

    (OT: Trump being owed 4 million casino money in 1992 by a Japanese gambler who Yakuza hacked to death in his kitchen (the gambler’s, not Trump’s): https://www.nytimes.com/1992/01/12/us/a-top-gambler-is-killed-owing-casinos-millions.html )

    From the NYT today: Will the Mueller Report Be Made Public? 17 Answers to What May Come Next

    Why does this really matter? If Trump’s base and the Republican Party stick with him through thick and thin (as they have on the majority of issues in the first two years of Trump’s presidency), then how important really is this report?
    Emma Strenski, Indianapolis

    We still don’t know what’s in the report. In terms of electoral politics, you’re right — it might not fundamentally change the partisan divide over Mr. Trump. His supporters have shown a willingness to stay with him in the face of allegations and behavior that might have doomed a more traditional politician.

    But you could argue that this report has an importance that goes well beyond partisan politics, reflecting an investigation that yielded substantial results — not least in establishing the degree of Russian interference in the 2016 election. Don’t forget that half a dozen Trump aides have been indicted or convicted.

    Regardless of Mr. Mueller’s conclusions, Democrats in the House are pressing ahead on issues such as whether Mr. Trump obstructed justice after becoming president. The Democrats say Mr. Barr needs to make as much of Mr. Mueller’s findings public as soon as possible because the American people deserve an accounting of what went on.

    — Michael S. Schmidt

    As ususal the NYT is being a substantial whore. What WAS the degree of Russian interference in the 2016 election really? Was it an epsilon + Richard Pinedo? I’m still not convinced about that DNC hack, that stuff reeks like a constructed narrative does.

  21. El Dato says:
    @Hyperborean

    Dead trees cost.

    > with an introduction by Alan Dershowitz

    Why! Isn’t that to be supposed to be “nonpartisan” and other worthless adjectives?

  22. El Dato says:
    @Sin City Milla

    They also have better launch-to-LEO capabilities than the USA, at least currently until NASA gets its act together regarding the entirely ridiculous Senator Lunch System, ca 2030.

    OTOH, past LEO, things suck badly. Russia can’t into space robots.

  23. Anon[422] • Disclaimer says:
    @Mr. Hack

    Putin had invested a lot of his own credibility in backing the thuggish Yanukovych twice during Ukrainian elections.

    What exactly did Russia do in way of backing Yanukovych? Yanukovych’s biggest backers were certain elements in the Ukrainian oligarchy, not Russia.

    Also, who should Russia support in Ukraine? Yushchenko? It is questionable whether Russians should even bother with the so called pro-Russian forces in Ukraine. The recent visit of Boyko to Moscow was in my opinion a complete waste of time.

    A Yanukovych who showed his gratitude to his benefactor by pursuing a pro EU course instead of backing Putin’s growing Eurasian Union economic and political projections. Yanukovych had failed miserably in bringing Ukraine into the Russian world configuration ultimately subjecting Russia to become the world’s pariah, and then Putler decides to give Yanukovych a safe haven after he got his sorry as run out of town?

    I think Putin views Ukraine’s choice of geopolitical alignment as a purely Ukrainian choice that he has very little influence over.

    Perhaps Yanukovych knows a lot. And he is not the only fugitive post-Soviet leader residing in Russia. Askar Akayev of Kyrgyzstan is another, and I’m sure there are many other lower level types.

    And finally, Russia is so much a world’s pariah that pipelines are being built into Europe bypassing Ukraine.

  24. @Mitleser

    Mexicans say that Mexico is too far from God and too close to the US.

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    , @Hibernian
  25. neutral says:
    @anon

    China gained most.

    I think Russia gained the most, the more it distances itself from the USA the better. By not entangling itself with anti white American ideology this can only be good in the long term. Even for those that only think GDP matters, the US economy is facing deadly debt and is increasingly run by idiots, not linking with the US economy is also good for a system that just cannot sustain itself anymore.

  26. Beckow says:
    @anon

    …By 2025, the Europeans could be warming up to the Russians as well if the democrats go off the rails with anti-European hate; at some point, Europeans are going to take notice

    That’s what I think too. US elite political spectrum, Democrats and never-Trumpers, is leading Washington into an isolation. A powerful, but remote empire like US can only dominate Europe if they are genuinely seen as one of them, as being ‘European‘. US is too advanced on its descent into Third Wordization, a weird combination of Latin America (its poorer parts), Africa, India, Middle East and Hong-Kong like Asian enclaves. The European part is listless, disappearing, and torn between half-hearted resistance and selling out. I can’t see Europe deferring to a combination of Mexico-Mumbai and Nigeria with some residual Euro-like weaklings doing the paperwork.

    Europe is also ceasing to be fully European, but it is 25-50 years behind US. That’s a very long gap and the recent attempts to accelerate it and de-Europenise Europe faster have backfired. This is heading for a civilization estrangement: how are still largely white Europeans going to obey what is fast becoming an explicitly anti-European power? They might not clash, but the alienation is coming.

    • Replies: @AP
  27. @Priss Factor

    With all that land and resources, Russia alone can become a superpower.

    Whatever for?

  28. anon[364] • Disclaimer says:

    “China has about 7% GDP growth for 4 reasons”

    1) Huge population

    2) Smart, group-oriented population

    3) Adequate natural resources, including arable land

    4) Superior government

    5) Economy of scale

    6) Started from a lower point of development

    7) Reasonable climate

    8) Ethnic homogeneity, relatively speaking

    9) Lack of religion

  29. Pericles says:
    @Anonymous

    “Putin has a tape of prostitutes peeing on Trump and is using it to blackmail him” (what a deranged fantasy that sounds when you write it out

    It was even a bit stranger than that, the hookers were said to have peed on a bed that Obama had slept in while in Moscow.

    And … Hillary, Obama and Comey and everyone went along with this. Good enough for government work? Or just one of those things in their world?

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
  30. @AnonFromTN

    They’re completely right.

    Mexicans are Godless burrito-heads actively pumping Latino poison into the nation’s arteries.

  31. @Pericles

    The dossier also noted that Trump boasted of the size of his shits and named his turds after Obama on account of fecal matter’s color.

    He was also reported to have yelled, “I hate black people!” while defecating.

    • Replies: @Beckow
  32. @Hail

    Kushner’s father was prosecuted by then US attorney Chris Christie as part of Operation Bid Rig, and spent time in federal prison after being convicted of various white collar crimes.

    Jared insists his father did nothing wrong.

    The culprit behind the Bridge-Gate scandal was a Kushner crony, and there may be reason to suspect the purpose was payback against Christie.

  33. @prime noticer

    Correct. It’s not prosecutors finding the law and getting their man. They get their man and then go find the (opaque, rococo) law. It is the very opposite of the “rule of law.”

    • Replies: @Beckow
    , @Corvinus
  34. Beckow says:
    @The Anti-Gnostic

    …They get their man and then go find the law. It is the very opposite of the “rule of law.”

    Exactly. The difference between a law-based society and an authoritarian one is that law enforcement only investigates a crime, and never a person. It is very simple and unchangeable: if an investigator starts an investigation into a person – with no idea what crime was actually committed – they are not following the law. They might as well bring back the inquisition.

    In Trump collusion case, even the most generous view never identified what was the ‘crime’ that was being investigated. Paranoid fantasies of what ‘could be’ cannot be a basis to start investigating everyone in sight and then charging them with process ‘crimes’ (like lying, obstruction, etc…). What does ‘collusion’ mean? What was the crime here? Somebody was pretending that they were not who they were on Facebook and slammed Hillary? Since when is that a ‘crime‘?

  35. Just look at this lunacy.

    And they have the nerve to call others “conspiracy theorists” …

    (From New York Magazine. h/t to https://twitter.com/mr_scientism)

    • LOL: Anatoly Karlin
    • Replies: @Beckow
    , @neutral
  36. BREAKING, and will be updated: Mueller report did not find Trump campaign or associates conspired with Russia, says AG's summary. https://t.co/0OsUcPQZev— St. Louis Post-Dispatch (@stltoday) March 24, 2019

    • Replies: @for-the-record
  37. Beckow says:
    @Thorfinnsson

    …The dossier also noted that Trump boasted of the size of his shits and named his turds after Obama on account of fecal matter’s color.

    That I believe. Although, what does it really mean to ‘name one’s turds‘? It sounds like a Southpark episode. The idea most likely originated there.

    The whole Trump dossier story is a lot worse and more end-of-an-era nonsense than even we can suspect. The Washington rulers just do whatever hell they feel like, and given the verbal acuity of subservient media, they can do it. No consequences, they own the words, the narrative.

    This will be one of those Pope scre.ed nuns on St Peter’s altar, put his ‘nephews‘ in charge, and than sent monks to collect money for ‘indulgences’ to Germany. What the f..k, why not? It is hard to believe the brazen absurdity in retrospect, yet it actually happened in the early 16th century. These ‘state-is-us‘ bastards never understand their own limits. They do it, because they can.

    • Replies: @Pericles
  38. @for-the-record

    Was there collusion?

    Based on these activities, the Special Counsel brought criminal charges against a number of Russian military officers for conspiring to hack into computers in the United States for purposes of influencing the election. But as noted above, the Special Counsel did not find that the Trump campaign, or anyone associated with it, conspired or coordinated with the Russian government in these efforts, despite multiple offers from Russian-affiliated individuals to assist the Trump campaign.

    Was their obstruction of justice?

    I have concluded that the evidence developed during the Special Counsel’s investigation is not sufficient to establish that the President committed an obstruction-of-justice offense. Our determination was made without regard to, and is not based on, the constitutional considerations that surround the indictment and criminal prosecution of a sitting president.

    Couldn’t be much more clear, could it? Will be interesting to see how the media twists these conclusions.

  39. Beckow says:
    @Swedish Family

    Lunatics on the loose.

    I have heard that Anastasia, ‘model-escort’ is possibly dating Carter Page. Or she could be: they live on the same planet, within age limits, man-woman (not necessary, but suspicious). And Trump.

    How do these people live with themselves? This is like claiming that one had a dinner with Sasquatch…

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  40. Tweet of the day:

  41. Anonymous[151] • Disclaimer says:

    Ioffe weighs in with a surprisingly balanced take:

  42. Anonymous[151] • Disclaimer says:
    @Beckow

    American journalism today has more in common with stand up comedy than with Orwell and Zola; as a journalist your job is to determine what your audience wants to hear and you develop a schtick that will gratify them. If you are a neocon you compose charts like the above; if you are an ultra-feminist like Jessica Valenti you write about how men suck; if you are black you write about white privilege. And that’s all you do. You don’t go off brand. And you certainly don’t go for nuance, which supports my theory that most American journalism today is re-tweeted far more often than it’s actually read.

  43. “While this report does not conclude that the president committed a crime, it also does not exonerate him,” Mueller said, according to the attorney general.

    So, the crime wasn’t proven, but neither was innocence: and even if he’s not guilty until proven innocent, he’s certainly suspicious until proven innocent.

    • Replies: @Mitleser
  44. Mitleser says:
    @reiner Tor

    The smell of political “justice”, refusing to accept innocence because it is not politically convenient.

  45. LondonBob says:
    @Hail

    The full report will never be released, Barr is a straight shooter.

  46. LondonBob says:
    @Priss Factor

    Russia doesn’t have the population to be a superpower, on a level with Japan.

    • Replies: @Beckow
    , @Anonymous
    , @Mr. XYZ
  47. AP says:
    @Beckow

    US can only dominate Europe if they are genuinely seen as one of them, as being ‘European‘.

    US democrats are very much like Merkel-style Europeans.

    The European part is listless, disappearing,

    It has a higher TFR than most European countries.

    US is too advanced on its descent into Third Wordization

    US still enjoys higher per capita GDP PPP than most European countries and all large European countries. Even African-Americans have a per capita GDP PPP that is higher than that of Portugal:

    https://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2014/sep/02/larry-elder/larry-elder-if-black-america-were-country-itd-be-1/

    • Replies: @Beckow
    , @neutral
    , @Mr. XYZ
  48. Beckow says:
    @LondonBob

    Russia doesn’t have the population to be a superpower

    How many people does it require to be a great power? 100 million? 200? 300?

    In my estimate, the number of people is irrelevant. If a country has enough people to perform all basic functions, enough for its military, what is the point of having a lot more. Nigeria or Indonesia will have 200 million soon, will they ever be superpowers? Numbers of people don’t matter, quality of land, resources and the level of civilization are what determines who is a great power.

  49. Hibernian says:
    @AnonFromTN

    The US is too far from God and too close to Mexico.

  50. Beckow says:
    @AP

    …US democrats are very much like Merkel-style Europeans.

    No, they are not. On social policies Democrats are a lot more ‘progressive’ than Merkel and her CDU, it is not even close – check out the actual German policies. On foreign policy, Merkel is a reluctant follower while Democrats are full-blown interventionists looking for a war behind every corner. But the main difference is the already established existence of the German social state: medical care, education, infrastructure, etc… Germany has it, US doesn’t. Merkel accepts the social state, Democrats are twisting incoherently wanting it and also pretending that all else in US could stay the same.

    TFR matters a lot more when you are already de facto a minority; over 50% of children born in US today are non-white, non-European. I am not aware of a single European country where that is the case yet.

    US still enjoys higher per capita GDP PPP than most European countries

    In what way? They get to drive more, own more junk, or eat more garbage? In real living standards, the bottom 50% people in US don’t come anywhere close to what the lower 50% in Europe has: medical care, vacations, education, pensions, etc… Yeah, Americans like to pretend that all is well and that they live ‘better than anyone else’, but the reality is that simply not true for the bottom half in America.

    But you won’t understand it anyway, so I am wasting my time.

    • Replies: @AP
  51. @Hibernian

    That’s the other side of the same coin.

  52. Mitleser says:
    @Beckow

    Number of people matters a lot.
    That is one of the main reasons why America is a superpower, but Britain and France are not.

    Even people in the 18th century knew that this is going to be one of the reasons why America will surpass them.

    • Replies: @Beckow
  53. AP says:
    @Beckow

    On foreign policy, Merkel is a reluctant follower while Democrats are full-blown interventionists looking for a war behind every corner.

    Obama did Libya but that was fairly minor and Europeans were involved.

    TFR matters a lot more when you are already de facto a minority; over 50% of children born in US today are non-white, non-European.

    Close, but not yet. About 50% of children are non-Hispanic whites. But some % of Hispanics are whites (many Cubans, for example) so it is not quite 50% yet.

    In what way? They get to drive more, own more junk, or eat more garbage? In real living standards, the bottom 50% people in US don’t come anywhere close to what the lower 50% in Europe has: medical care, vacations, education, pensions, etc…

    LOL. I’ve lived in Western Europe but I suspect you’ve never lived in the USA.

    Your cluelessness was revealed when you said something stupid about the American educational system, even though results in international standardized tests show that it is superior to that of all European counties other than Finland for European kids:

    http://www.unz.com/isteve/new-pisa-test-results/

    In Europe, thanks to generous support, the bottom 20% live much better than do the bottom 20% in the USA. It’s about even for the next 20%. After that Europe loses. Compare European vs. American salaries for engineers, physicians, etc. It is funny.

    I suspect that everyone posting here is at least in the top 50%. They would all do better in the USA.

    Salary by education level in USA:

    https://smartasset.com/retirement/the-average-salary-by-education-level

    Median American who didn’t even finish high school makes $2,000 per month. That’s twice that of the total average for Slovakia.

  54. Hail says: • Website

    Now that MuellerGate is over, can we get to the bottom of this pesky question:

    Why does he say it “Muh-ler” instead of the universal “Myew-ler“?

    • Replies: @Old Palo Altan
  55. Anonymous[388] • Disclaimer says:
    @LondonBob

    As a fourth-generation American I cannot see the U.S. in 2030 being in any way continuous with the America I grew up in— when it was 86% white European with a strong and large middle class. I think the current strength of the U.S. is still largely based on America’s recent past. IMO the effect of rapid demographic changes over the past ~10-15 years well be startlingly evident over the next ~10-15 years. But even here the demographic changes are increasing at an increasing rate. The only question for me is when will the country begin to inexorably break down.

    • Replies: @neutral
  56. WOW this changes everything, the lying media faces its greatest credibility crisis, it’s absolutely stunning they went on and on 24/7 x 365 with the meme that Trump was Putin’s puppet, something so bizzare and incredible like an alien abduction story, yet they normalized it by megaphoning it and now it has completely collapsed. Trump’s going to win in 2020.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
  57. @Beckow

    Numbers of people don’t matter, quality of land, resources and the level of civilization are what determines who is a great power.

    Numbers obviously do matter, but they are a necessary, not sufficient condition.

  58. neutral says:
    @Swedish Family

    Now do a similar comparison to Israels influence on America, it’s a much simpler diagram, it’s just a bunch of jew billionaires giving money to nearly every US politician. This is not even a secret yet this is called the ultimate conspiracy theory, on wikipedia they even have “jewish control of Hollywood” in the list of conspiracy theories, again this is an absolute fact that cannot be disputed.

    • Agree: reiner Tor
    • Replies: @DFH
    , @Hyperborean
  59. @Grahamsno(G64)

    Their next point is that lack of proof of guilt is no proof of innocence.

  60. neutral says:
    @Anonymous

    The only question for me is when will the country begin to inexorably break down.

    Don’t know, as a white nationalist I support the end of the USA ASAP. The demographic doom is irreversible, but like you said the latent power will linger for few more decades which means more global anti white actions from likes of president Harris or Castro, so I support maximum accelerationism.

  61. DFH says:
    @neutral

    The American Congress even confirmed recently that Leo Frank was innocent and was the victim of an anti-semitic pogrom, even though there is no reason to believe either of those things.

    The assumption is always that Jews are innocent (cf. blood libels)

  62. neutral says:
    @AP

    Even African-Americans have a per capita GDP PPP that is higher than that of Portugal

    Blacks in America in no way are more intelligent, productive, have the potential to succeed, are law abiding, etc. than any European national. Their money comes from by far the biggest transfer wealth in history, that is from white people to the lowest race on the planet. What do you think will happen once there are not enough people to coddle this special needs level race?

  63. @neutral

    This is not even a secret yet this is called the ultimate conspiracy theory, on wikipedia they even have “jewish control of Hollywood” in the list of conspiracy theories, again this is an absolute fact that cannot be disputed.

    This is funny:

    “That’s a very dangerous phrase, ‘Jews control Hollywood.’ What is true is that there are a lot of Jews in Hollywood,” he said. Instead of “control,” Foxman would prefer people say that many executives in the industry “happen to be Jewish,” as in “all eight major film studios are run by men who happen to be Jewish.”

    But Foxman said he is proud of the accomplishments of American Jews. “I think Jews are disproportionately represented in the creative industry. They’re disproportionate as lawyers and probably medicine here as well,” he said. He argues that this does not mean that Jews make pro-Jewish movies any more than they do pro-Jewish surgery. Though other countries, I’ve noticed, aren’t so big on circumcision.

    I appreciate Foxman’s concerns. And maybe my life spent in a New Jersey-New York/Bay Area-L.A. pro-Semitic cocoon has left me naive. But I don’t care if Americans think we’re running the news media, Hollywood, Wall Street or the government. I just care that we get to keep running them.

    Who runs Hollywood? C’mon by Joel Stein
    https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-2008-dec-19-oe-stein19-story.html

    No country in history has contributed more to the world in proportion to its population and its time as a nation than the state of the Jewish people. Should Jews be blamed for Israel’s success? It is true that Jews are represented in large numbers in various professions such as academic, finance and the media. That is not because they are given preferential treatment. It is because they have proved to be successful at these enterprises. Should they be blamed for that?

    […]

    The other lie that follows from “The Jews control the world” is that individual Jews who happen to have succeeded and are in positions of authority, always work together on behalf of Jewish control of the world. The reality is quite different. Consider, for example, the alleged Jewish control of the media. It is true that Jewish families have ownership interests in The New York Times and other newspapers. But those newspapers don’t promote Jewish “control” of the world. Indeed, they are often at odds with Jewish public opinion. The same is true of Wall Street, Hollywood and academia, where individual Jews hold diverse opinions on issues of Jewish concern. But to the antisemite, all Jews are the same and their goal – to control the world – is identical.

    https://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Do-the-Jews-control-the-world-539880

    Always just a coincidence.

    • Replies: @neutral
  64. neutral says:
    @Hyperborean

    Yes, this Hollywood “jews don’t run Hollywood because they don’t make pro jew movies” narrative is the strange attempt to convince people who have the ability to notice things that people in charge don’t run things, just typical jew audacity in insulting peoples intelligence. The fact that miscegenation propaganda, anti fertility propaganda and all the other anti white propaganda cannot be discussed in polite society is well known by the jew, they don’t have to make explicit pro jew movies (but also do that) as elimination of whites is very much what is good for the jew.

  65. Beckow says:
    @AP

    As I said, you wouldn’t understand.

    You basically agreed that the bottom 40% in Europe live better, I think it is more, but the precise level depends on a lot of variables. In most cases, in richer European countries it is a lot higher then 50%. Engineers, physicians are not in the bottom 50% or mostly even in bottom 75%, do the numbers.

    You have the foolish tendency to only see what you want to see:
    I give you an actual example: a lowly manufacturing worker in Slovakia makes 1.1-1.4k Euros/month and supports a family of 4. He has 5 weeks of vacations, a house that he owns with no mortgage, medical care and free education for the whole family, pension, pays a tax rate of 15-19%, has 2 cars, vacations in Italy and skis in the mountains. When his kids go to university, it is free. He works on average 36 hrs a week and his job is safe, with union and state protection. It is not great, but it beats most people in similar position in US. And similar lower 50% person in Germany, Austria (even France) has it 2 times better.

    Your problem is that you don’t assign realistic value to social benefits: universal medical care, free education through university, pensions, vacations, much cheaper subsidised housing without mortgage slavery. They hardly show up in PPP comparisons. In reality for most people – definitely the bottom 50%, but recently moving up among younger Americans to higher levels – those benefits are worth 50% of one’s lifetime income.

    Americans get more in cash, partially because dollar is still over-valued thanks to mostly US generated insecurity in the rest of the world. But Americans have to pay for everything from that cash. As their social expenses exploded in the last 20 years it is no longer such a great deal. It is still better for single, young, mostly men because they have fewer social expenses while in their 20’s to 50’s. But for normal families – with incomes under the top 10-25% – it is becoming worse than in Europe. Individual taxes in US are now comparable to US – shocking, but true. And in US you get nothing for the taxes you pay, in Europe you get a lot. US spends its tax revenue on military, wars, on the Washington ruling class, and on charity for its dissatisfied minorities and exploding population of freeloaders migrating there from the Third World.

    I wonder if you with your high-scoring education can ever understand the realities I described above. It is a test of common sense, try it with an open mind…

    • Replies: @AP
    , @AP
  66. Pericles says:
    @Beckow

    Here’s a pretty good article on the affair, mainly on the media side.

    https://taibbi.substack.com/p/russiagate-is-wmd-times-a-million

    • Replies: @Beckow
    , @reiner Tor
  67. Pericles says:
    @Beckow

    Nigeria or Indonesia will have 200 million soon, will they ever be superpowers?

    Nigerians are a mere 196 million but Indonesia has 268 million already. At this point I think our host AKs article on how many of those get various IQ questions right is a good read.

  68. Beckow says:
    @Mitleser

    I said:

    If a country has enough people to perform all basic functions, enough for its military, what is the point of having a lot more?

    Anything above 100 million doesn’t make much difference in the super-power league. I obviously didn’t mean Iceland :)…

    Britain and France are no longer super-powers (using today’s terminology) because they have too few resources, small landmass, and because they were pushed out of their other territorial holdings. If Britain would fully control Canada as its fully integrated home territory, they could easily be a superpower. The damn Quebecois have prevented it…

  69. Beckow says:
    @Pericles

    Great article, thanks for the link. It will never appear in MSM, so it almost doesn’t matter. When Gods want to destroy someone, they first make them proud, full of hubris, and mad…

  70. • LOL: reiner Tor
  71. anon[284] • Disclaimer says:

    “US democrats are very much like Merkel-style Europeans.”

    As another poster pointed out, they are nothing alike. They are additionally dissimilar in that US democrats are increasingly composed of divisive non-Europeans indoctrinated into a “hate whitey” ideology. The leadership of the US democrat party is all very old at this point – approaching 80 – and will be replaced with a different demographic within a single generation. The up-and-coming younger democrats like Omar and Cortes are clearly the party’s future at this point; the same can’t be said of “Merkel-style Europeans” who will remain economically moderate, and importantly, actually European during that time period.

    That’s a trend that will continue into the future for the democrats, which was the point of the original comment. Anyone who says otherwise either does not live in the United States or hasn’t been paying attention. The democrat leadership has had to pull out all the stops in recent months to keep from being taken over by non-European radicals: their House Majority Leader has publicly denounced Nancy Pelosi for not reigning in out-of-control socialists and there are near-monthly public denunciations from the House against some perceived slight against some non-white demographic.

    “It has a higher TFR than most European countries.”

    Below replacement and falling. Suicide and drug usage are also reaching epidemic proportions among that demographic as well. The future looks poor for US whites. Additionally, there are more than twice as many European whites as American-European whites in Europe, despite the difference in fertility, so Europe will be fine for a while. Not so for the US white demographic that is quickly being displaced.

    “US still enjoys higher per capita GDP PPP than most European countries and all large European countries. Even African-Americans have a per capita GDP PPP that is higher than that of Portugal.”

    **Still** being the operative word. There’s a lot of room to fall there – that with a rising China, soaring debt and unfunded liabilities, and the inevitable end of the US dollar as the world’s reserve currency. And as the other poster pointed out, there is no comparison between Western European poor and American poor; one group has affordable healthcare, paid vacation time, and myriad other social programs. The US wants to humiliate its poor (and working poor) by giving them drug tests in exchange for food boxes.

    “Close, but not yet. About 50% of children are non-Hispanic whites. But some % of Hispanics are whites (many Cubans, for example) so it is not quite 50% yet.”

    Not true. That figure derives from births to “white mothers”. When interracial marriages are taken into account, non-white births exceed white births, especially in the under 30 demographic; in fact, white deaths exceed white births in nearly a dozen US states now with no sign of reversal. Frankly, you’re splitting hairs with all of these objections. Even if you were right, you’d only be temporarily right. Within just a decade, you’ll be unquestionably wrong on every front.

    “Your cluelessness was revealed…US education”

    Changing the subject.

    “After that Europe loses. Compare European vs. American salaries for engineers, physicians, etc. It is funny.”

    1. That has nothing to do with the original comment and is a deflection on your part – quite an ignorant deflection as it changes noting noted in the comment.
    2. That is an unfair, incorrect comparison as it does not account for out-of-pocket expenses such as health care and education.
    3. So, what? A few professions in the US do well (but not greatly better when properly measured against their European counterparts) but everyone else does worse or the same?

    “Median American who didn’t even finish high school makes $2,000 per month. That’s twice that of the total average for Slovakia.”

    1. Another unfair, incorrect comparison on your part. You purposely chose a poor East European country for comparison instead of countries like the UK, France, and Germany.
    2. From above: “That is an unfair, incorrect comparison as it does not account for out-of-pocket expenses such as health care and education.”

    “Even African-Americans have a per capita GDP PPP that is higher than that of Portugal.”

    The black American demographic is heavily subsidized by the US government through federal jobs programs – disproportionately occupied by blacks. When the government is subtracted from the equation, that demographic is quite poor: https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2010/03/study-finds-median-wealth-for-single-black-women-at-5/37395/

    When the US dollar is no longer the world’s reserve currency and the country can no longer finance its massive and growing debts, there could be trouble there, especially if a severe global recession hits at about the same time (possible as China, Japan, and the US are all heavily indebted).

    • Replies: @AP
  72. AP says:
    @Beckow

    You basically agreed that the bottom 40% in Europe live better

    I wrote that the bottom 20% live better in Europe, the next 20% live about the same.

    If you aspire never to finish secondary school and to work as a laborer, a cashier at some cheap store, or not work at all, then Europe is clearly a much better place to be than is America.

    If you work in a somewhat higher level position, with a high school education and some addtional training, than the two are comparable.

    Otherwise you are better off in the USA. If you have a university education you are much better off in the USA.

    Engineers, physicians are not in the bottom 50% or mostly even in bottom 75%, do the numbers.

    LOL, again you accused me of not understanding when it is you who do not understand. I didn’t claim they were.

    Your problem is that you don’t assign realistic value to social benefits: universal medical care, free education through university, pensions, vacations, much cheaper subsidised housing without mortgage slavery.

    In America, employed people get insurance and pensions through their employer, while 2 weeks is the legal minimum vacation most people have at least 3 (yes, still inferior to Europe), mortgage enables someone to live in a larger and better place while working and to own it by the time he retires, rather than wait 20 years to get it. In Europe free education depends on entrance examinations, in America anyone can go to univeristy and pay. But those who do well academically get scholarships and pay much less.

    Individual taxes in US are now comparable to US

    LOL, in the USA someone making six figures pays 24% federal and ~5% state tax (depending on state, some pay 0%). After various deductions (kids, mortgage interest, work-related expenses) the total tax is under 20%.

    In Germany such a person would be paying 42% tax. Even people making much less than that would be paying 42% tax in Germany – the cutoff is only 54,000 Euros. And averages wages in Germany are lower. And sales taxes on products are also much higher. An Audi costs much more in Germany than in the USA.

    The one advantage Europeans have is longer vacations. But for that they are poorer.

    a lowly manufacturing worker in Slovakia makes 1.1-1.4k Euros/month

    You are just confirming what I wrote – that Europe is better for the bottom 20%.

    If you are uneducated and only capable of working in the lowest manufuring job you are better off in Europe, because everyone else subsidizes you. Europe is better for the bottom 20%.

    A funny thing though – an American auto worker in Detroit can make 100k in dollars a year if he does overtime, which most want to do. He will have a large house, a boat, snowmobiles, a truck that costs 60k or more, cars for himself and for any kids over 16. University tuition is unnecessary. Health insurance is paid by Ford or whoever.

    • Replies: @Beckow
  73. Beckow says:
    @AP

    …In Europe free education depends on entrance examinations, in America anyone can go to univeristy

    I think that tells us all we need to know about your education.

    There are 30 plus million plus with no medical insurance in US. People on average work a lot more and get a lot less vacation time – they don’t live, they work. Most educated younger people have fairly substantial school loans. Over 50% of recent college graduates work in jobs not requiring college degrees – that is the official number. Your dreamy Detroit ‘worker‘ is a thing of the past, younger Americans don’t have those opportunities. Most metropolitan areas are more than 50% non-white, often 75-80%. Crime is incomparably higher.

    The combination of ignorance and hubris prevents most poorer Americans from being able to accept this. Many prefer to pretend and boast, and frankly lie, about how they live. We can argue where the exact break point is 25-50-75% – it is a dynamic number depending on region, age, etc.. Anyone who has travelled around US will confirm that roughly the bottom 50% live worse than their counterparts in Europe. The top lives better, but it is not always based on education or work. Often it is based on where they live. You are incapable of seeing this, as one would predict based on the educational morass that US schools have become when it comes to understanding the world.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    , @AP
  74. Dmitry says:
    @Beckow

    I know personally someone who works in America.

    To summarize what I have heard of life in America.

    He has constantly increasing salary and comfortable working conditions (without even so much stress or extra work). Salary was high, and then increased, and when he talked about leaving it increased even more in an unplanned way. His working conditions, company behaviour and bosses, are very civilized.

    His healthcare was very expensive, but part of the service is paid the company itself. This healthcare includes all kinds of tests, so on the internet he can view the level of every vitamin and minerals in his blood (it’s luxury healthcare, not a normal healthcare).

    On the other hand, apparently social life is not so friendly, and he is friends with only other foreign people there, not native Americans.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  75. Anonymous[151] • Disclaimer says:
    @Dmitry

    For a high-skill worker that sounds typical. That is a small slice of the overall population.

    Regarding AP’s points, pensions for non-government employees are largely a thing of the past. At best your employer might make some contributions on your behalf to a tax-deferred retirement savings account; otherwise you’re on your own to save up what you need beyond social security. Healthcare offerings by employers likewise can vary wildly; even a white-collar employee with “good” coverage through his employer may end up paying thousands of additional dollars for routine tests (e.g., MRI) or an emergency room visit. Subsidies for higher education are sporadic, and the average American doctor or lawyer will probably accrue six figures of educational debt unless he has wealthy parents who pay the bills for him.

    We can talk all day about PPP but it’s a crude measure; there are many “cheap” places to live in America but imo the average European would find them unlivable. Also wages are generally low in these areas. So if you live in one of the areas with high wages your cost of living will increase significantly as well. You will still probably be better off in some sense than your counterpart in Munich or Stockholm, but you may find your quality of life worse due to poor urban design, lack of public transportation, lack of social cohesion etc. Having a 3 Series, an iPhone and a pair of Nikes may or may not make up for that (I suspect for a lot of younger people it would make up for it).

    Overall America is a very uneven place: when Americans say that different states are like different countries they are being ridiculous, but it is also true that the discrepancies in lifestyle between different regions, ages and ethnic groups in America is vast compared to a typical European country. Much, much easier to speak of the average Swede or German than of the “average” American.

    But for anybody considering moving to America, more than concerns over healthcare and university tuition (because many European countries are having their own issues with this), I would ask him to think about the culture. Spend a few months reading the New Yorker or New York Times or Atlantic, with the understanding that the mindset evidenced in these publications will to a greater or lesser degree dictate government and judicial policy for the next few decades. Do you want to live in a country where whining about the “unbearable whiteness” of the Oscars is considered a respectable, nuanced and educated opinion? Where putting a male child on hormone blockers to suppress puberty, followed up with a castration on his 18th birthday, is considered gripping entertainment suitable for mass viewing on TV? Where the “intelligentsia” loses its collective mind because a kid in a “Make America Great Again” hat smiled and stared at an old Indian man beating a drum in his face?

    That is the world we live in as Americans; you won’t get much exposure to it if you are down with the proles, but if you want to be part of the same world as Dmitry’s friend it will be in the background of your life, and if you are phenotypically “white” and male it will be a low-level threat to you. Which is another thing to remember about America: we have virtually no workers’ rights, and bosses can and will fire employees for trivial offenses against political correctness. Read this piece in Quillette about the idea of a worker’s bill of rights

    https://quillette.com/2019/03/21/towards-a-workers-bill-of-rights/

    and remember that this is an aspirational thing that has 0 chance of ever becoming reality.

    For me personally as an American, given the choice I would rather be a citizen of the EU. I don’t like the state of this country and the direction in which things are heading fills me with dread.

    • Replies: @AP
    , @Dmitry
  76. AP says:
    @Anonymous

    For a high-skill worker that sounds typical. That is a small slice of the overall population.

    Now, it’s fairly typical, in healthcare also.

    At best your employer might make some contributions on your behalf to a tax-deferred retirement savings account;

    Typically the employer matches up to 5% of salary.

    he average American doctor or lawyer will probably accrue six figures of educational debt unless he has wealthy parents who pay the bills for him.

    Physician graduates with 200k in debt, but makes 200k per year. He can keep 100k per year the first two years and pay off all his debt.

    What is the average salary of a physician in Europe? LOL.

    Do you want to live in a country where whining about the “unbearable whiteness” of the Oscars is considered a respectable, nuanced and educated opinion? Where putting a male child on hormone blockers to suppress puberty, followed up with a castration on his 18th birthday, is considered gripping entertainment suitable for mass viewing on TV? Where the “intelligentsia” loses its collective mind because a kid in a “Make America Great Again” hat smiled and stared at an old Indian man beating a drum in his face?

    This stuff is all worse in Western Europe, haven’t you seen the funny news from Sweden?

    • Replies: @Beckow
  77. Anonny says:

    America is full of fat chicks
    EU is not

    This ends the debate

    • LOL: Denis
  78. Anonymous[151] • Disclaimer says:

    Also re: healthcare, if you go through Ioffe’s Twitter feed she has made mention several times in the past of buying health insurance through Obamacare. So that is an Ivy League educated woman, in her late 30s, working for major news outlets who does not get health coverage through her employer. So it is not just proles who are affected by this stuff either.

  79. Beckow says:
    @AP

    …Physician graduates with 200k in debt, but makes 200k per year. He can keep 100k per year the first two years and pay off all his debt.

    Wow, this neatly summarizes your inability to think. First, there are taxes: if you make $200k, you probably end up with $120-140k – no way you can pay $100k in debt per year. Second, debt earns interest, at 5%, the debt goes up $10k a year. Most physicians are hired at $120-150k (look it up) and the average debt they have is $230k. Redo your numbers and you will see that it is not that rosy. And doctors are literally the best of profession in US, with safest jobs and highest incomes.

    For most regular non-physician Americans the numbers are worse: they can’t afford to take time off from work, they are the most indebted group on earth outside of peasants in India, they have the lowest overall security in the Western world, work is everything and yet American workers have the least rights in the advanced world. It is not the system that makes America great, it is the incredible resource wealth – and that is being squandered. Once the next 10 million Third Worlders come – in 7 to 10 years – the gig will slowly be up. There is now way back after a certain demographic point.

    You are a cheerleader. What are you cheering for? Is it out of ignorance or desperation? In America, one finds both types of cheerleading.

    • Replies: @AP
  80. AP says:
    @Beckow

    Wow, this neatly summarizes your inability to think. First, there are taxes: if you make $200k, you probably end up with $120-140k – no way you can pay $100k in debt per year.

    Okay, you will pay off the debts in 3 years rather than two.

    BTW a lot of physicians have parents for physicians, who pay their kids’ tuition so they graduate without debt.

    Second, debt earns interest, at 5%, the debt goes up $10k a year.

    Depending on the loan, no interest for the first 6 months after graduation.

    Most physicians are hired at $120-150k (look it up) and the average debt they have is $230k.

    Utter nonsense. Average starting salary is at least 200k. The lowest paid specialties such as psychiatry or family medicine will start at around 150k.

    Figures from 2012:

    https://careertrend.com/starting-salary-doctors-right-out-residency-35655.html

    And doctors are literally the best of profession in US, with safest jobs and highest incomes.

    They also graduate with the most debt.

    You really are clueless about the USA.

  81. AP says:
    @Beckow

    There are 30 plus million plus with no medical insurance in US.

    Under 10% of the population. And they don’t get turned away from hospitals.

    People on average work a lot more and get a lot less vacation time

    The only thing you’ve written that isn’t wrong.

    . Your dreamy Detroit ‘worker‘ is a thing of the past,

    No, it’s still typical over there.

    Most metropolitan areas are more than 50% non-white, often 75-80%

    50% yes (New York and Chicago are at this level). “Often 75% to 80% is false.” You are exaggerating again.

    Anyone who has travelled around US will confirm that roughly the bottom 50% live worse than their counterparts in Europe.

    LOL.

    You are incapable of seeing this, as one would predict based on the educational morass

    You keep making such claims, but reality is that white American secondary school students perform better than do European students on internationals standardized tests, and American universities remain the top ranked in the world. While Europe’s poor Muslims live much better than do America’s poor Latinos and Blacks, thanks to European high tax rates, from a strictly material level Europeans in the USA live much better than do their counterparts in Europe. Just as their schools are better. The advantages Europe has are longer vacations and more beautiful urban landscapes (built long ago).

    • Replies: @Gerard2
    , @Mr. XYZ
  82. @Endgame Napoleon

    Whew, good comment.

    I was watching one of those theoretical physics videos delivered at the Royal Institution in England the other day. The speaker noted that the CERN Large Hadron Collider had located the Higgs Boson but problems concerning quantum fields, gravity and matter remain unresolved. The solution was to be sought with a new, more powerful machine, 10 x stronger. However, such a machine would cost 10 billion dollars and the only country in the world that could pony up that kind of dough would be China. China, he said, would be happy to host the world’s most intelligent physicists and engineers in a city north of Beijing. It would be a twenty year project.

    What happened to America’s lead in theoretical physics? Why can’t we even keep pace any more? We can’t afford a state of the art particle accelerator? 10 billion measly bucks? What’s an aircraft carrier cost? (answer, 27 billion) How much do Corvinus’ extended family draw down the reservoir?

    We’re screwed.

    go to 56 minutes, 10 seconds.

  83. AP says:
    @anon

    Anyone who says otherwise either does not live in the United States or hasn’t been paying attention.

    Biden and Bernie are leading in the polls. There is a lot of hype but it hasn’t yet translated into mass support.

    “It has a higher TFR than most European countries.”

    Below replacement and falling.

    African-American fertility is now below replacement rate and falling faster than that of whites (though it is still slightly higher). Latino is barely above fertility, and dropping also. USA will probably stabilize at around 40% non-Hispanic white, 10% Asian, 35% Latino, 15% black.

    This is not as bad as much of Western Europe, becoming 30% Muslim plus 10% or so African.

    And as the other poster pointed out, there is no comparison between Western European poor and American poor; one group has affordable healthcare, paid vacation time, and myriad other social programs.

    Yes, Europe is better for people who haven’t gotten past high school and haven’t learned any trades. Career grocery baggers or weed-smoking video game players. Not for anyone else.

    “Your cluelessness was revealed…US education”

    Changing the subject.

    Context: I had discussed this with him in the past.

    “Close, but not yet. About 50% of children are non-Hispanic whites. But some % of Hispanics are whites (many Cubans, for example) so it is not quite 50% yet.”

    Not true. That figure derives from births to “white mothers”. When interracial marriages are taken into account, non-white births exceed white births,

    Fair point. OTOH most interracial marriages with whites are with rather white Latinos, or Asians.

    That is an unfair, incorrect comparison as it does not account for out-of-pocket expenses such as health care and education.

    Okay, let’s look at a pharmacist, a five year degree. Average American salary: $125,000 per year.
    Tax rate: 24% federal. Many states have 0% income tax but let’s assume 6% which is high. So after taxes he is making $87,500 per year. Health insurance will be, let’s say, about $300 per month for a family plan. So minus $3,600 for the year and take home pay of $83,900.

    Average German salary: Half that, $60,000. Taxed at 42%. So after taxes, he is bringing home $34,800.

    So after taxes and health insurance, the American pharmacist brings home about $49,100 more every year than does his German colleague. In 3 years of excess income over the German, he can buy himself a nice lakehouse with cash if he wants to. Over 40 years (retiring around age 65) that is $1,964,000. A sucker will think that saving tuition for college or not having to pay for an MRI is worth it.

    And this is without taking into account much higher taxes in Germany on everything.

    It’s the same story with physicians, even more so.

    Engineers. Average salary with only a bachelor’s degree in the USA is $83,000. Again, taxed at 24% federal, plus 6% in a higher-tax state. So after taxes and health insurance $54,500.

    In Germany a bachelor’s salary in engineering is $62,000, taxed at 42% so $36,000. Closer, but still far – every year, making $18,500 less.

    We can go downscale. Average American nurse makes $67,400 per year. Tax rate 22%. In Germany it is only $31,700 but taxed at only 14%. Still over $20,000 difference in annual money coming home after taxes and health insurance.

    Or skilled trade. Average plumber in the USA makes $57,000 (this seems low to me). In Germany – $32,000. Etc. etc.

    You will bring up pensions. Typically it’s another 5% placed in a retirement account in the USA, matched by the employer at equal or half. It doesn’t change the annual income much. Germany also makes one pay a social security contribution on top of an income tax.

    Edit: I forgot about deductions and basic allowance, but don’t have time to calculate them. It doesn’t change the overall picture by much.

    The bottom line is that if you have a bachelor’s degree or higher, or a skilled trade you are clearly better off in the USA.

    But if you are a maid who cleans hotel rooms – Germany is better. $20,200 per year wage in Germany, $24,000 wage in USA. Germany’s benefits make up for the small $4,000 income difference.

    Germany is also better if you don’t work at all and live off taxpayers.

    “Median American who didn’t even finish high school makes $2,000 per month. That’s twice that of the total average for Slovakia.”

    1. Another unfair, incorrect comparison on your part. You purposely chose a poor East European country for comparison instead of countries like the UK, France, and Germany.

    I responded to a Slovak who had just mentioned Slovak salaries.

    • Replies: @neutral
    , @Mr. XYZ
  84. @Hail

    Who? Mueller himself?

    Such a pronunciation is in fact closer to how it would be pronounced in Germany. “Myewl-er” is the way people who have never heard a German use an umlaut think it should be used.
    Cardinal Müller, one of the few Catholics still left in the Sacred College, pronounces his own name rather like “Muh-ler”.

    Also in German the accent is on the first syllable, so the general effect is much more clipped and, well, German that way.

    • Replies: @Hail
  85. Hail says: • Website
    @Old Palo Altan

    I am not sure I agree with your point that this “Muh-ler” pronunciation is closer to the German umlaut sound than “Myew-ler,” but even saying it is, and saying for that or any other reason this man wants it to be “Muh-ler,” he or his father or grandfather should have dropped the ‘E’ and spared the rest of us all this trouble.

    It is like a “Johnson” demanding to be called “John-sown.” (Or perhaps in line with your argument on origin-language pronunciation, a multigenerational American ‘Jansen’ demanding to be called ‘Yan-sen’.)

  86. @Priss Factor

    Russians are uniquely blessed due to geography but they keep falling short.

    What’s wrong with Russians?

    Nothing wrong, but their culture is simply not too propulsive for ultra-modern capitalism.

    They are not highly efficient, egocentric & “mechanized” Teutons.

    Also, they are not zombie-like east Asians.

    Russians are more like a war-like type of Italians, with more drama than melodrama.

    • Agree: AP
  87. @AP

    “In Europe, thanks to generous support, the bottom 20% live much better than do the bottom 20% in the USA. It’s about even for the next 20%. After that Europe loses. Compare European vs. American salaries for engineers, physicians, etc. It is funny.”
    I have literally heard a politican brag about this.

    • Replies: @AP
  88. neutral says:
    @AP

    OTOH most interracial marriages with whites are with rather white Latinos, or Asians.

    How on earth does this make this better? It’s just spawning more non whites. As for the white latinos, this is a very dubious category, I have seen my fair share of Aztec types that are described as white by official mugshots.

    • Replies: @AP
    , @DFH
  89. AP says:
    @Beckow

    Oh, I let another of your exaggerations slide. This is what you wrote:

    I give you an actual example: a lowly manufacturing worker in Slovakia makes 1.1-1.4k Euros/month and supports a family of 4.

    Average wage in Slovakia (not of lowly workers, but overall average wage) is around $1000 Eureos per month:

    https://spectator.sme.sk/c/20771210/average-wage-is-expected-to-increase-to-above-1000-in-2018.html

    An auto worker can make $1400 Euros a month in Slovakia, but this is 47% above the average wage in his region so it is not a “lowly” job but an exceptionally well-paid one:

    https://spectator.sme.sk/c/20499780/kia-our-goal-is-to-be-a-responsible-member-of-the-community.html

    Do you know how much an auto worker makes in the USA?

    Hourly wages at a GM plant in Tennessee are over $60,000 per year:

    https://www.commercialappeal.com/story/money/cars/2019/02/06/general-motors-gm-profit-sharing-checks-uaw-workers-spring-hill/2787550002/

    Plus profit-sharing checks. At GM this was $10,000 last year, down from $11,000 the year before:

    https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2019/02/06/gm-profit-sharing-2018-earnings/2787923002/

    (funny thing – your fellow exaggerator/liar Anon in TN insisted there was no American auto plant in that state)

    Plus overtime, if available. Some are getting over 100k per year, with only their high school education.

    So you think a Slovak auto worker comes even close to an American one in terms of material lifestyle? LOL. American auto workers are the ones driving $60,000 trucks, owning boats or RVs, etc.

  90. AP says:
    @neutral

    As for the white latinos, this is a very dubious category, I have seen my fair share of Aztec types that are described as white by official mugshots.

    The average Puerto Rican is about 65% European, 20% African and 12% Indian but this varies:

    https://blog.nationalgeographic.org/2014/07/25/genographic-project-dna-results-reveals-details-of-puerto-rican-history/

    The average Mexican in the USA is about 40% European. This also varies.

    So the product of the relationship between an “average” Puerto Rican and a European will be 82% European, 10% African, 6% Native. The product of the relationship between an “average” Mexican and a European will be 70% European, 30% Native.

    However, if you notice, the white people who intermarry tend to do so with Latinos on the more European side of the spectrum, probably 80% of more, which would produce 90% European kids who will naturally label themselves Hispanic for purposes of employment, scholarship advantages etc. yet basically just be Europeans (conversely, African Americans intermarry with Latinos who look more African).

    The actress who played April on Parks and Rec is half Puerto Rican:

    You would not think twice if she said she were Italian or from Spain. She actually looks Bulgarian.

    Here is a half-Mexican, half Dutch girl:

    Looks kind of Russian.

    ::::::::::::::::::::::::

    Anyways, much better to be in a country that ends up being 40% Latino than one that ends up being 30% Muslim.

    • Replies: @neutral
    , @Mr. XYZ
  91. DFH says:
    @neutral

    In some ways it is worst because white men who marry Asians are probably more intelligent and so on, compared with the sort of person who marries blacks or Latinos.

  92. neutral says:
    @AP

    65% European is too low, and 20% African is way too high to ever accept as white. As for that example, this is like using Scarlet Johansen and saying this is how jews look like. This definition of who is white is like the Brazilian definition, it’s too tolerant.

    • Replies: @AP
    , @songbird
  93. AP says:
    @neutral

    65% European is too low, and 20% African is way too high to ever accept as white.

    Maybe, but the kids of such a person with a white would be a white by any normal person’s definition. I was responding to a commenter who said that although about 50% of US births were to white women some of these did not have white fathers. Most interracial children with whites are with Asians and with Latinos.

    As for that example, this is like using Scarlet Johansen and saying this is how jews look like

    She is half Jewish and half Scandinavian (father was Danish and Swedish) and that is what one would expect such a person to look like.

    • Replies: @neutral
  94. I have decided to wade into the debate between AP and Beckow because I am an expert on this topic.

    First, and I realize that it was Beckow who introduced it, but the comparison with Slovakia should be rejected. Slovakia has not yet converged with the technological frontier.

    The comparison should be to the developed economies of Western Europe. For my purposes I will use the United Kingdom, France, Germany, and Sweden for this. I’ve included Sweden despite its small size because it is more prosperous than these countries, very “European” in its style of government, and its success isn’t distorted by oil & gas like Norway (which is as oil dependent as Russia).

    That said Norway is more prosperous than America. Other European countries more prosperous than America are Luxembourg, Ireland (dubious), Switzerland, and San Marino.

    First the big indictators:

    GDP PPP Per Capita, 2017 (IMF data)

    USA: $59,495
    Sweden: $51,264
    Germany: $50,206
    UK: $43,620
    France: $43,550

    GDP PPP Per Hour Worked, 2013

    USA: $67.32
    France: $59.24
    Germany: $57.36
    Sweden: $55.28
    UK: $51.38

    Unemployment Rate (national data)

    Germany: 3.3% (Oct 2018)
    USA: 4% (Jan 2019)
    Sweden: 6.3% (Oct 2018)
    France: 8.9% (Oct 2018)
    UK: 3.9% (Jan 2019)

    Employment Rate, 2018 (OECD data)

    Sweden: 77.5%
    Germany: 76%
    UK: 74.5%
    USA: 71%
    France: 65.3%

    Average Annual Wages PPP, 2017 (OECD data)

    USA: $60,558
    Germany: $47,585
    France: $43,755
    UK: $43,732
    Sweden: $42,393

    Average Work Year in Hours, 2017 (OECD data)

    USA: 1,780
    France: 1,514
    UK: 1,514
    Sweden: 1,453
    Germany: 1,356

    Gini Coefficient After Taxes and Transfers, 2016 (OECD data)

    Sweden: 0.28
    France: 0.29
    Germany: 0.29
    UK: 0.35
    USA: 0.39

    Mean Wealth Per Capita, 2018 (Credit Suisse)

    USA: $403,974
    France: $280,580
    UK: $279,048
    Sweden: $249,765
    Germany: $214,893

    Median Wealth Per Capita, 2018 (Credit Suisse)

    France: $106,827
    UK: $97,169
    US: $61,667
    Sweden: $39,909
    Germany: $35,169

    NOTE ON THE LOW GERMAN FIGURES:

    Home ownership rates in Germany are much lower than in the other countries owing to public policy decisions. Germany does not favor or encourage home ownership, and for most people their largest single asset is their house. Public policy in Germany offers many protections to renters without discouraging the supply of new housing. Average housing prices in Germany have been roughly the same in real terms since the 1970s. Thus, oddly, Germany’s low level of wealth per adult can be considered a public policy success.

    Conclusions

    The data presented here show a basic outline. The US has both higher productivity and works more than European economies do. Income is less equally distributed, though the distinction here is more between Anglo-Saxon economies and Continental ones. Americans are also much richer, though wealth like income is unequally distributed so the typical American is not wealthy. Sweden, amusingly, is both the world’s most equal (income) and unequal (wealth) country.

    Other than the laggard France, European economies have in this century successfully reform their labor markets. Thus America no longer has any particular advantage in employment. The winner here is Germany, which speaks to the success of the Harz reforms and the Eurozone (for Germany anyway…).

    A finer grained analysis would require looking at income and wealth by quintile and take into consideration healthcare, pensions, education, housing, commuting, taxes, etc. This is harder to do. I’ll post about how these things are handled in America (since I live here) later. I have less expertise on this with Europe but will provide some information.

    • Replies: @Beckow
    , @AP
  95. songbird says:
    @AP

    Recently, I heard an ethnic Cuban posit a theory as to why there weren’t many blacks in the first wave of Cubans that came to the US. He explained it as a fringe benefit of the communist rhetoric of the Castro regime which repeatedly denounced the US as being racist.

    I don’t believe his theory is correct. Obviously, there were cognitive barriers to leaving – just look at Nigerian immigration. And today, many Africans would denounce the US as racist, while stampeding their fellows to death to get a visa. Not to mention, the fact that thousands of Haitians were massacred by Trujillo and that doesn’t stop Haitians from infiltrating the DR.

    • Replies: @Authenticjazzman
  96. neutral says:
    @AP

    would be a white by any normal person’s definition

    Normal people call them hispanic/latino and not white, they do this because they know they are not white. If it’s good enough for normies, then it is more than good enough for me to call them non white. Also, we haven’t even discussed jews, Arabs, and other MENA types that are also seen as white in America.

    The fact is that America is both a non white AND anti white, its wealth is increasingly built up on endless debt and the assumption that the rest of the world will continue to fund it’s dollar hegemony, I don’t see this happening.

  97. I don’t see any change in the continuing conviction that “Russia meddled in our election”.

    So, the delusion continues unabated.

    • Agree: for-the-record
  98. Beckow says:
    @Thorfinnsson

    Thank for summarizing this. My point was about the bottom 50% – any reasonable observer would say that day-to-day life for them is better in Europe, and that mostly includes the Visegrad countries.

    AP keeps calling the lower 50% ‘high school dropouts‘, that is simply not true. He is also wrong about the details: family medical insurance in US is not $300/month – more like $1,100-1,500/month, most large cities are non-white: Detroit 90%, LA 75%, Chicago 55%, etc… I kind of gave on him – he lacks critical thinking.

    Slovakia has not yet converged with the technological frontier.

    I am not sure what the frontier means to you, but whatever. I have visited Sweden many times, and it is a lovely country, but I would not commit to it in the long-run. It is no longer European, and the trends are bad, possibly irreversible. Germany is slightly better, but France, Uk?

    Incomes and wealth over time follow civilization and culture, the Western Europe has abandoned it, and its eventual impoverishment is inevitable. A brick house in Slovakia today cost a fraction of what it costs in Sweden or UK, most wealth is based on real estate – which way do you think the real estate prices will move in the future? We got screwed in the east by our ‘neo-liberal’ leaders in the late 90’s who agreed to exchange our currency at a very discounted rate. Over time it has been going back to the more natural ratios, by 2030-40 we will be there and the numbers – that are largely based on the exchange rates – will adjust.

    Brussels statistics show Prague and Bratislava among the 10 top EU GNP/per capita generating regions (in $50-60k per capita range). Salaries don’t reflect it yet, but incomes are going up by 6-10% annually, it will take a few more years.

    I am reluctant to mention this: it attracts more Western losers looking for a ‘cheap eastern place’, and we really don’t need them. Keep your false images and play with numbers without understanding how the numbers are derived and the long-term trends. If any rational European today claims that London or Brussels are better than Prague, he is deluded. And it is better that way. Keep your ideologically derived ‘frontier’, your Pakis and Somalis, your crime and high rents.

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
  99. @Beckow

    Thank for summarizing this. My point was about the bottom 50% – any reasonable observer would say that day-to-day life for them is better in Europe, and that mostly includes the Visegrad countries.

    AP keeps calling the lower 50% ‘high school dropouts‘, that is simply not true. He is also wrong about the details: family medical insurance in US is not $300/month – more like $1,100-1,500/month, most large cities are non-white: Detroit 90%, LA 75%, Chicago 55%, etc… I kind of gave on him – he lacks critical thinking.

    I’m not sure if it’s “bottom 50%”, but it’s certainly true at some bottom threshold. AP claims bottom 20%. The non-college labor market is bifurcated between those with no particular skills or credentials and the skilled blue collar workforce.

    The unskilled blue collar workforce in America is definitely worse off than its equivalent in Europe.

    The skilled blue collar workforce I’m not so sure. Nurses, “first responders” (police, firemen, paramedics), welders, machinists, tradesmen, unionized workers, enlisted military personnel, etc. are quite well off here.

    Medical insurance is quite simply all over the map in America. Most of the poor in America are covered by Medicaid, and all of the elderly by Medicare. Those not covered by some sort of government program mostly have health insurance through their employers. Employer-provided health insurance usually requires the employee to pay 50% (deducted from his paycheck). How much this costs and what is covered varies in the extreme.

    In general it’s fair to say that Americans are much less satisfied than Europeans (and Canadians and Australians) with their health coverage. Cost is one reason, but in my experience the main reason is the administrative burden it imposes on people. Americans must figure out which doctors and facilities their insurance will pay for, which procedures will be paid for, and what percentage they must pay themselves. All of this is confusing and taxing. Elderly Americans all state how wonderful it is to have Medicare.

    Most US cities are majority non-white but not necessarily the larger metropolitan areas. Non-whites aren’t all identical either. Living near Mexicans, for instance, is harmless. And America also has quite a lot of high-ability non-whites (orientals, brahmins, etc.) unlike Europe. Blacks conveniently tend to be highly segregated.

    Big problems with life in America compared to Europe in my view would be:

    • Commuting
    • Medical insurance
    • Higher education costs
    • Cognitive oppression and exploitation

    I don’t include pensions because this is an overstated problem. There is in fact a compulsory state pension program (Social Security), and most private employers offer a good supplementary pension option. If no supplementary pension is offered, America has by far the world’s best options for investment.

    That’s not to say there’s no problem–most people lack the discipline to save properly. The supplementary pension options ought to be made universal, compulsory, and simpler to navigate/understand. Regulation is also needed to eliminate high-cost pension providers. But those who fail to save properly still get Social Security and remain eligible for various anti-poverty programs.

    Housing is not a problem outside of the Bay Area and perhaps DC. Even in New York the idea that housing is a problem is Fake News. It’s only a problem if you insist on living in Manhattan or Brooklyn.

    • Replies: @Beckow
  100. songbird says:
    @neutral

    Puerto Ricans are possibly the worst Hispanics in existence. The hairiest tales of inner city violence were often Puerto Ricans, not blacks. I’d blame it on them not having much self-awareness about their black blood and believing wrongly that they are Americans, so feeling more entitled.

    AOC is Puerto Rican. Her behavior summarizes their general politics.

    A small percentage are white, and not bad as things go. I knew a blonde once, but the rest I would deport to Africa, along with any Haitians. I don’t like Dominicans, but I wouldn’t wish Africa on them. Hispaniola would be turned into an island for mulattoes under my plan.

  101. Dmitry says:
    @Anonymous

    rather be a citizen of the EU.

    I agree, for some North-West EU countries, this can be sensible.

    Depending on your job, there can be higher quality of life in some North-West EU countries than America. (Although there is not that many jobs with salaries as high as in America, even in the better parts of the EU).

    state of this country and the direction in which things are heading fills me with dread.

    But in the EU, is politics so much better?

    Where the “intelligentsia” loses its collective mind because a kid in a “Make America Great Again” hat smiled and stared at an old Indian man beating a drum in his face?

    This kind of massive hysteria is spreading everywhere though, although sure, it will be in a different forms.

    . Spend a few months reading the New Yorker or New York Times or Atlantic

    For, emotional health, it’s definitely better to avoid reading too much about politics of a country in which you are a gastarbeiter… .

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  102. Anonymous[151] • Disclaimer says:
    @Dmitry

    I agree that the question of US vs. Europe–with regards to political freedom and freedom of expression–is really one of relative “badness,” not just good vs. bad. It’s certainly true that in the US our First Amendment is quite broad in scope; but it’s also true that private organizations (corporations, private universities) have a lot of power here compared to most countries, and that they often exercise that power in heavy handed and capricious ways.

    https://www.dukechronicle.com/article/2018/08/ciaran-mckenna-case-final-duke-sexual-assault-lawsuit

    https://www.dukechronicle.com/article/2018/06/lewis-mcleod-gets-degree-after-nearly-four-year-student-conduct-lawsuit-against-the-university

    Two foreign students in a prestigious American uni, both accused of sexual misconduct, both found guilty by campus kangaroo courts (NOT courts of law) and had their studies interrupted as a result, both ultimately exonerated by the legal system but only after a lengthy and financially and emotionally draining process.

    And unfortunately the legal system is increasingly playing these politicized games, both in its decisions regarding whom to prosecute (e.g. Maria Butina) and whom not to prosecute (e.g. Jussie Smollett). Steve Sailer’s “Great White Defendant” is the goal to which every good-thinking state’s attorney and university investigator now aspires.

    Certainly there is a lot of this in some other countries (UK especially, as well as Sweden), but I don’t think it is quite to our level; at the very least, we can say that their legal systems are not nearly as draconian as ours in the US, so even the hypothetical penalties one can face are not so severe. In any case when I said EU I was thinking less of the UK and more Austria or Denmark or some place like that.

    Of course the absolute number and percentage of people who are unjustly fired/expelled/imprisoned for crimes against political correctness is small, but I wouldn’t say that it’s a trivial number either. And all this has a chilling effect, imo, on people overall; it creates an atmosphere of pervasive distrust and suspicion amongst ordinary bourgeois people, because you never know who is going to report you for what, or what the repercussions may be. I think that contributes a lot to the atmosphere your friend perceives here (imo it is a new thing where foreigners consider America a cold and unfriendly place).

  103. Beckow says:
    @Thorfinnsson

    – Commuting
    • Medical insurance
    • Higher education costs
    • Cognitive oppression and exploitation

    That goes back to my original point: comparing societies based on PPP GNP/capita is incomplete. Today social elements – like medical care, education, good infrastructure – account for a much higher share of ‘good life‘ than in the past. They are not easily measured – too many variables, too much depends on one’s personal situation.

    The ‘qualified blue collar’ workers – nurses, firemen, plumbers, union workers – live well everywhere. They are generally not a part of the bottom 50%. Younger people are impacted by the recent trends more than the general population: and the trend in US is for even less social safety net, more complicated and expensive medical care, more expensive – and often useless – education, etc… Then there is the inescapable reality that America simply will not be a First World Western country within our lifetimes – white Latinas, brahmins, etc… are marginal details. The overall demographic story is for America to become more like Latin America, but with a very substantial African population, and large Asian enclaves, e.g. the unlimited South Asians moving in. To pretend otherwise is foolish: it might be bad or good, but it is happening.

    I appreciate your nuanced view. I would suggest that we use the same kind of nuance when we look at other issues, other countries. Unfortunately, for most Americans, the nuance stops at ocean edge. Suddenly they become hyper-sensitive, start prevaricating freely, and are obsessed with not being seen as ‘losing’. Must be the ‘exceptionalism’.

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    , @AP
  104. Another high crime or misdemeanor, it would appear.

    Trump entertains Russian hockey player and Putin ally in the White House

    It has only been a few short days since Attorney General Bill Barr released his summary of the special counsel’s report about Russia interference into the 2016 election, and President Donald Trump is already entertaining “prominent” Russians at the White House.

    The Washington Capitals were honored at the White House for winning the 2018 Stanley Cup Championship. While some members of the team declined the visit due to values, some members still attended such as Alex Ovechkin.

    “Alex Ovechkin, the team’s Russian captain, and the National Hockey League’s most valuable player, who is also a vocal admirer and personal friend of President Vladimir V. Putin of Russia,” a report from The Washington Post said.

    https://www.rawstory.com/2019/03/trump-entertain-russian-hockey-players-in-the-white-house/

  105. @Beckow

    Medical care, education, and good infrastructure can all be measured. They are in fact incorporated into GDP PPP statistics. No doubt there are measurement problems. A longer commute, for instance, increases GDP. It’s not actually work so it doesn’t count as reduced productivity, though it should.

    Actually with respect to the first two they’re overemphasized in my view. I for instance do not consume medical care or education, nor do I intend to.

    I brought up qualified blue collar workers because of AP’s emphasis on “education”.

    Speaking of percentages, no, obviously people making above average incomes are not in the bottom 50% by definition. They’re still worth bringing up as they demonstrate the possibility of upward mobility and good living standards for those with double digit IQs.

    There is a possibility (reality is too far) that the USA will cease to be a first world country in the future. That said this does not mean that first world conditions would disappear from first world populations within the United States. In Latin America for instance living standards are generally high for the whites.

    Americans are generally insular and unaware of conditions in foreign countries. That said Europeans often have silly views about America (we’re apparently dying in the streets from constantly being shot, and naturally these gunshot wounds are not treated since there’s no healthcare) and are constantly bringing up so-called “social” matters which are either not that bad or outright irrelevant.

    • Replies: @Beckow
  106. @songbird

    ” I don’t believe his theory is correct”

    Well you are obviously unaware of the incessant rantings of all, I mean of all European media regarding their perceived American “Racism”.
    Germany, the epicenter of human psychosis and dysfunction, in particular, is simply obcessed with what they see as “systematic” American racism, and they rant on and on about the tragedy suffered by the native Americans at the hands of the European invaders meaning : Germans.
    Their Lügenpresse offers daily articles regarding the plight of black Americans at the hands of the odious Republicans, and the racist history of the Democrats, KKK, etc, is purposely swept under the rug and in order to uphold the negative image of the hated Republicans. I could go on for hours with this theme.

    Authenticjazzman “Mensa” qualified since 1973, airborne trained uS Army vet, and pro jazz artist.

  107. Russiagate believers are like those people who are into body snatchers, flat-earth, haunted houses, ….

    You just can’t reason with them.

    • Replies: @neutral
  108. neutral says:
    @Bardon Kaldian

    The difference is that these believers command the economy, have the power to destroy the lives of millions, run the mass media, create laws and whole bunch of other levers of power.

    • Replies: @Bardon Kaldian
  109. @neutral

    They are not believers; they are manipulators with these believers.

    • Replies: @neutral
  110. Beckow says:
    @Thorfinnsson

    …Medical care, education, and good infrastructure can all be measured.

    The value that each individual assigns to them not so much. I might not value a ‘$200k Ivey education’ at $200k, or even $50k. Others might pay half million just to be allowed to pay the additional $200k. GDP even with PPP makes no such distinctions, more monetised activity, the better.

    I don’t have silly stereotypes about US I know the country quite well. It is a mixed bag, as are most countries.

    first world conditions would disappear from first world populations within the United States

    I think when your society is basically a Third World, having so called ‘first world’ living standards is not worth much. They already have that in most Third World countries, even the worst sh.tholes have some elites living like in the first world. It is not a society, culture or surroundings that some of us enjoy. But to each his own. Just remember that eventually, after a few generations there is a regression to the mean – for those of us who think about our posterity that is an issue. That mestizo son-in-law will be quite real, and it only starts there… It is called a devolution.

  111. @Hibernian

    Ain’t no God in Mexico
    Ain’t no comfort in the can
    When you’re down in Matamoras gettin’ busted by the man
    If I’d never felt the sunshine, Hell, I would not cuss your rain
    If my feet could fit a railroad track, I guess I’d a been a train

  112. Mikhail says: • Website

    Excellent Russiagate Discussion

    Re: https://therealnews.com/stories/democrats-russophobia-hid-trumps-real-crimes

    At about the 13 minute mark, Paul Jay makes a cogent point on the Mueller Report, reinforcing the negative BS about Russian meddling in the 2016 US presidential election. Jeff Cohen’s negative comments about the Russian government make for a good follow-up. As I’ve previously noted:

    What the Russia bashing Intel and cyber security folks have yet to successfully refute –

    The DNC server at issue was never turned over for a review and is likely now in pieces to be never reviewed.

    The DNC’s cyber security firm CrowdStrike, is linked with the anti-Russian leaning Atlantic Council. CrowdStrike stated a medium confidence claim that Fancy Bear is run by Russian military intelligence is suspect. Fancy Bear has included misspelled Cyrillic words, indicating a non-fluent Russian speaker involvement.

    On the one hand, we’re told that Russia has sophisticated cyber security means. On the other, we’re told that their hack on the DNC was primitively done. There’s also the ability of some to successfully present a given source of sending something out that wasn’t actually done by the aforementioned source.

    “Russia” as such isn’t monolithic. As is true with the US and other countries, Russia has folks who do things in cyber without the knowledge and/or approval of the Kremlin.

    Some of the presented so-called evidence of Russian meddling indicates instances like a venue that attempts to reach out to a broad spectrum for the likely purpose of getting more internet hits and better placement for potential advertising sales. This is done by carrying material that can be reasonably deemed as pro and anti-Trump, as well as pro and anti-Clinton.

    In any event, the so-called FaceBook evidence of Russian meddling (whether government and/or non-government involved) had no substantive impact on the outcome of the 2016 US presidential election.

    Meantime, when compared to Russia, the US has the greater record of meddling in the internal affairs of other countries.

    Related articles that address the subject at hand:

    https://consortiumnews.com/2019/01/07/a-look-back-at-clappers-jan-2017-assessment-on-russia-gate/

    https://www.strategic-culture.org/news/2018/02/21/overhyping-us-russian-differences.html

    https://www.eurasiareview.com/20012017-russia-isnt-a-threat-to-the-us-analysis/

  113. AP says:
    @Thorfinnsson

    Thank you, I was hoping you would weigh in.

    About American figures – keep in mind that they vary by race. European Americans do much better across the board than the national figures, making European Americans even wealthier than Europeans, than the overall data indicate.

    While there are now non-European underclasses in Europe too, they are still fewer than Latinos + Blacks in the USA.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  114. AP says:
    @Beckow

    The ‘qualified blue collar’ workers – nurses, firemen, plumbers, union workers – live well everywhere. They are generally not a part of the bottom 50%.

    An average plumber in the USA has a wage of $57,000 which is just shy of the average American wage of $60,000 and thus (barely) in the bottom 50%.

    Average German plumber makes only $32,000 or so.

    • Replies: @Mr. XYZ
  115. Dmitry says:
    @AP

    I think you’re right about salary differences, and probably these differences are even to a larger extent than you say. For example, even workers in Walmart, seem rich by international standards. You might be underestimating about salary differences..

    Moreover, what is interesting for those of us who are not Americans, are skilled jobs in Palo Alto, which can give you a visa (it’s not like we even could receive a visa to work in Walmart if we wanted to).

    The economic problem for people in America, is the very high cost of education and healthcare. (Although this is also in some other countries – for example, if you live in London, it is said that you should place your children in expensive schools.)

    At the same time, obviously Beckow’s general intuition, will be right. In a lot of other ways, the standard of living can be higher in Western-EU (Slovakia not in the West, but I guess they’ll converging to Austria quite fast now).

    I am just a gastarbeiter to Western Europe. But I live in a beautiful area, where I can walk to work, and where there is a quite high atmosphere of civilization – I don’t believe something as nice exists in many parts of America.

    • Replies: @AP
  116. Gerard2 says:
    @AP

    but reality is that white American secondary school students perform better than do European students on internationals standardized tests,

    Absolutely zero data to back up this fantasist horseshit

    and American universities remain the top ranked in the world

    LOL you dumb maggot. American universities are the richest in the world , which means more money for research….which is what the “best ” university measurement is you idiot. The ranking isn’t in anyway a reflection of the level of teaching or pupil standard….and is entirely reliant on having enough money to take on the best academics around the world to take on research projects( which of course aren’t American you idiot)

    They have been doing this since the days of begging Dvorzhak to come across the Atlantic Ocean (unfortunately due to their pathetic non achievements, Poles have been in zero academic demand in the US in the last century…except jewish ones)

    What’s more, although not a non-entity in each of the academic Olympiads like Ukraine… the US performances are still not great, and when they are doing well……..EVERY name on the list is Oriental in origin on the team

  117. melanf says:
    @Priss Factor

    Russians are uniquely blessed due to geography

    This is definitely not true, rather the opposite is true. Here all described (in simplified form) http://www.unz.com/akarlin/reconsidering-parshev/
    Here is a map of agricultural land

    Russia is a kind of unloved stepson of geography .

    • Replies: @melanf
    , @Beckow
  118. melanf says:
    @melanf

    Also, note that the best Lands of Russia were conquered relatively recently. “Historical” Russia-is a place with a unique combination of negative factors for the development of civilization. If we imagine an analogy – let’s say that the Greenland Vikings did not become extinct, but subjugating the Eskimos, and conquered in the 16-18 centuries Northern Canada and Alaska. At the same time, more southern American lands are already inhabited by immigrants from East Asia who (using demographic and technical superiority) periodically organize destructive invasions to Viking lands. And the sea is dominated by North African pirates who every year attack the land of the Vikings in order to capture slaves.

  119. Mr. XYZ says:
    @AP

    Just as their schools are better.

    That’s almost exclusively due to the students, no? I mean, take a bunch of smart Ashkenazi Jews and put all of them in a ghetto school while putting ghetto Blacks into a school in a wealthy suburb is going to cause the ghetto school’s performance to go way up while the other school’s performance would go way down.

    It really does appear to be largely about the students themselves rather than the schools.

    • Agree: LondonBob
  120. Mr. XYZ says:
    @AP

    Anyways, much better to be in a country that ends up being 40% Latino than one that ends up being 30% Muslim.

    I don’t see the US ending up at 40% Latino. Still, I would agree with you–unless one got the cream of the crop in regards to Muslims.

    I honestly do wonder how much of the high crime rate in Latin America is genetic and how much is due to environmental factors. I mean, countries such as El Salvador are violent as hell, but US Latinos are relatively peaceful. Russians were also an extremely violent bunch 15 years ago, but much less so right now–which shows the potential for environmental changes in certain populations in regards to this.

    Also, in regards to Mexicans, if a 40% White Mexican marries a 99% White American, their children are going to be around 70% White, but the 30% Native American ancestry could cause them to lose several IQ points or so relative to what they would have if they were 99% White. Thus, mass intermarriage between Mexicans and overwhelmingly White Americans might not be a good idea since it could cause the amount of smart fractions in the US to significantly decrease (at least outside of the Asian-American population).

    BTW, I really do think that it’s terrible when a 75+% White person self-identifies as a minority for the purpose of benefiting from affirmative action. It’s what I call milking the system.

    • Replies: @songbird
    , @AP
    , @AP
  121. Mr. XYZ says:
    @AP

    The US certainly has a higher per capita GDP than would be expected based on its average IQ. Is this due to the smart fractions in the US, or due to something else?

  122. Mr. XYZ says:
    @AP

    African-American fertility is now below replacement rate and falling faster than that of whites (though it is still slightly higher). Latino is barely above fertility, and dropping also. USA will probably stabilize at around 40% non-Hispanic white, 10% Asian, 35% Latino, 15% black.

    This is not as bad as much of Western Europe, becoming 30% Muslim plus 10% or so African.

    35% Hispanic is too high, IMHO. Peaking at 25-30% Hispanic is more realistic–possibly with some decline afterwards (in terms of % of the total population).

    I do think that the Asian percentage in the US could go significantly beyond 10%. Something like 15-20% Asian is doable over the long(er)-run due to the fact that there are a lot of smart Asians out there. If the US will ever implement a merit-based immigration system, Asians should heavily benefit from this–especially East Asians, Vietnamese, and high-caste Indians.

    Africa is the real wildcard here. It’s going to experience a population explosion but its population is likely going to be of a lesser quality than East Asians, Vietnamese, or even most Indians. Of course, even if only 10% of Africans are going to have an IQ in the triple-digits (100+), this would still be 400 million people or so by 2100–though there could very well be some regression towards the mean for their children. Anyway, my point is that in spite of its likely low average IQ ceiling, Africa is nevertheless going to have a significant number of relatively high-quality people by the end of the 21st century who could emigrate elsewhere. Of course, a lot of the less smart Africans could also emigrate due to their hopes of establishing a better life elsewhere. Indeed, I think that your 10% African peak figure for Europe is probably too low.

    • Replies: @songbird
  123. Mr. XYZ says:
    @AP

    You would also need to take cost of living into account, no? I seem to recall that US PPP GDP per capita was around $60,000 whereas the equivalent figure for Germany was around $50,000. Thus, per capita, Germany is at around 83% of the US’s level. German plumbers, on the other hand, only make 56% of what US plumbers make.

  124. Mr. XYZ says:
    @Beckow

    Numbers of people don’t matter, quality of land, resources and the level of civilization are what determines who is a great power.

    You forgot to mention quality of people. After all, average IQ matters–a lot!

  125. Mr. XYZ says:
    @LondonBob

    Smart Russians can have much more babies. If they will do that for a sufficiently long time period, things are gradually going to look much, much brighter for Russia.

  126. neutral says:
    @Bardon Kaldian

    They really are true believers, this is a good recent article on these paranoid people.
    https://www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/power-of-the-paranoid-center-russiagate/

  127. Mikhail says: • Website

    Just Aired Russiagate Shows, Which Relate to Why CNN & MSNBC Suck

    Excellent discussion with Doug Wead, William Binney, and Alan Dershowitz:

    https://www.rt.com/shows/crosstalk/454846-mueller-report-criminal-fbi/

    Respectful issue taken with Dershowitz’s characterization of John Brennan as a nice guy. Regarding Brennan:

    https://www.strategic-culture.org/news/2017/01/11/misreading-trump-putin-and-us-russian-relations.html

    In addition to the venomous anti-Russian propaganda noted in the above SCF article, Brennan has accused Trump of being treasonous.

    Dershowitz appeared on another recent RT show:

    https://www.rt.com/shows/worlds-apart-oksana-boyko/451658-law-justice-peru-us/

    Note the respectful half hour one on one format between host and guest – something very much lacking elsewhere. RT regularly has such shows, which include neocon/neolib leaning critics of Russia. From a few years ago, a fair and balanced overview of RT:

    https://www.eurasiareview.com/29122014-with-room-for-improvement-rt-gives-time-to-diverse-views-analysis/

    ————————

    Re: https://audioboom.com/posts/7213687-tales-of-the-new-cold-war-1-of-2-the-russiagate-damage-comes-home-to-america-stephen-f-cohen &
    https://audioboom.com/posts/7213686-tales-of-the-new-cold-war-2-of-2-the-russiagate-damage-comes-home-to-america-stephen-f-cohen

    Some good points made on this show – one of them not being the repeated inaccuracy, which simplistically rehashes the image of a foreign intervention against the Reds during the Russian Civil War, when the actual reality was quite a bit more nuanced, for reasons that have been previously detailed (by yours truly) and completely ignored by John Batchelor and Stephen Cohen.

  128. AP says:
    @Dmitry

    But I live in a beautiful area, where I can walk to work, and where there is a quite high atmosphere of civilization – I don’t believe something as nice exists in many parts of America.

    Sure, but this is about history, not economics. Europeans built a beautiful place over the centuries and they live in that place. Whatever Europe built in the last 100 years is not prettier than what Americans did. Chicago’s 19th and early 20th century boulevards are not uglier than European ones from those times, but can’t compare to medieval cities.

  129. Corvinus says:
    @The Anti-Gnostic

    “Correct. It’s not prosecutors finding the law and getting their man. They get their man and then go find the (opaque, rococo) law. It is the very opposite of the “rule of law.””

    My challenge to you, as an ambulance chaser, is to disprove this legal analysis.

    Barr concluded that Mueller:

    1. did not have enough proof of obstruction to convict.

    2. did not find enough proof of conspiracy to convict, but does not offer judgement on the proof of obstruction he found.

    PROOF is defined as any evidence that tends to make your position on a matter in a dispute more likely. INDICTMENTS require a certain amount of PROOF on whether a defendant is guilty or innocent. The level of PROOF required for a prosecutor to get an INDICTMENT of a defendant–the amount of evidence on the question whether a suspect is guilty that a prosecutor must have to move a case into the criminal justice system–is set at the level of PROBABLE CAUSE.

    When a prosecutor says “I do not have enough proof to bring an indictment”, it means there is “insufficient proof” on a matter of dispute–the suspect’s guilt–to reach the “probable cause” standard of proof required for indictment. Trump’s defenders say there is “no evidence/no proof” of collusion. Except there was PROOF. Mueller has tons of it in his report after nearly two years of investigating. Mueller MET the PROBABLE CAUSE standard.

    The issue is that Mueller needed to have PROOF at a much higher level than PROBABLE CAUSE to secure a conviction. To secure a CONVICTION means a prosecutor must have PROOF that is BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT–a term meaning a decision by a judge or jury that a given defendant is in fact guilty.

    Under the ethical guidelines governing Mueller’s work, he is not supposed to seek an INDICTMENT of a defendant unless and until he believed he had enough PROOF to secure a CONVICTION as well. He had enough PROOF at the PROBABLE CAUSE level to get an INDICTMENT–it is detailed in his report–but he believes a jury will not CONVICT the defendant because there is not PROOF BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT.

    There are two standards here–the media is mixing up the terms really badly.

    Mueller could proceed with the case–he could INDICT the defendant since there is enough PROOF, but he chose not to because he cannot CONVICT him. Why? The standard for BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT is that the PROOF must be at a 90% level to secure a CONVICTION. Mueller in his report provided the percentages of his PROOF. PROBABLE CAUSE is 25% of PROOF that someone committed a crime, while BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT is 90%.

    You need to distinguish EVIDENCE and PROOF. In short, PROOF is a *type* of EVIDENCE. When Trump defenders say “no EVIDENCE” what they actually mean is “no PROOF”—though they are ridiculously misstating their case in both instances. Mueller had PROOF of conspiracy enough to INDICT (at the level of PROBABLE CAUSE). But he did not have the PROOF that was BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT (necessary for a CONVICTION). Remember, Mueller was conducting a narrow scope of the overall collusion question (which there are almost two dozen ongoing investigations on this and other matters)–whether Trump was engaged in a “conspiracy” with two Russian entities, the IRA or the GRU.

    Since one can collude through obstruction of justice, and because Mueller did say he found PROOF of that crime, we know he found PROOF of COLLUSION…just not enough to secure a CONVICTION. Moreover, Congress does NOT require PROOF that is BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT to deem someone a national security threat. That is up to each member of Congress.

    Mueller performed honorably. More than likely, he farmed out several cases to other jurisdictions because it was not under his purview to delver further into those matters. But he did find PROOF in several other areas during the course of his investigation that has resulted in other jurisdictions looking into Trump and his associated.

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    , @neutral
    , @Beckow
  130. @Corvinus

    just want you to know i didn’t read your post

    the first bad sign was your user name (oh man it’s corvinus again…)

    then i saw the failures to use the blockquote tag (moron) and lots of unnecessary use of caps lock

    decided to scroll right past it without reading

    (note to everyone else: i did read most of your posts)

    • Agree: reiner Tor
  131. songbird says:
    @Mr. XYZ

    There’s a lot to be worried about though. The jury system is bad enough using average whites, I doubt it will work with Mexicans. The last time I had jury duty, only whites showed up, but the courthouse was nearly absolutely filled with Hispanics – I assume family members of some criminal and/or victim of the criminal.

    • Replies: @Mr. XYZ
  132. Beckow says:
    @melanf

    …Russia is a kind of unloved stepson of geography

    Geography loves us all :). I disagree about your point, nice map, though. The amount of usable land Russia has – due to its size – is a multiple of combined lands of all large European countries. What matters is the ratio of people to usable land – in that Russia is at the top among countries with large populations (over 50 million or so).

    Russia also has about 1/4 of world’s supply of fresh water, and receives sufficient rain. That is a crucial resource as we go into the future.

    Your analogy with Eskimos-Vikings in N America is intriguing. But it is precisely because of its relative sparseness and unsuitability for mass farming, that most of Russia was kept as a reserve for mankind. If it was more obviously farmable, the space would had been densely populated long time ago – probably by east Asians.

    In pre-historic data, Russia had a dense pattern of activity and settlement – it was big it would be hard not to. As our ancestors settled on more intensive lifestyles like farming, cities, trade – human settlements concentrated further south.

    Geography is not just farming. The mineral, energy, forest, fishing and other resources are also a key for future development. Any way one looks at it, either an external power(s) take over the Russian geographic space, or Russia cannot fail to prosper in the future. All those Western morons didn’t march east out of boredom. They went there repeatedly because that’s where the ‘stuff’ is. They are getting ready again.

    As an ugly frog going by a made-up name ‘Allbright’, once said: ‘it is unfair to mankind that Russians have all these resources‘. There you go, from the frog’s mouth herself.

    • Replies: @melanf
  133. neutral says:
    @Corvinus

    You’re an idiot, this “investigation” was utter horseshit. If you want to speak collusion how about you speak about the billions that go to Israel and all the other favours that comes it way.

    • Replies: @Corvinus
  134. Beckow says:
    @Corvinus

    You display a classical case of verbal nihilism, or you are simply too confused to tell a day from night.

    If there is no crime, there can be no ‘obstruction’ of the investigation of that crime. That is a prima facie principle in all legal systems – US is edging away from that rule, a big mistake because then absolutely anything can be found to be an ‘obstruction’. Denying one’s guilt, or simply being silent could be construed as ‘obstruction’. It is nonsense and doesn’t belong in a fair legal system. One has no obligation to collaborate in an ‘investigation’ of self – there is a 5th amendment.

    You blabber about ‘collusion’ is even more crazy. What would a ‘collusion’ be? Is talking to any foreigner during an election – if that foreigner’s country has a preference in that election – a ‘conspiracy’ now in US? Are you mad? If I go to Germany and tell someone in CDU that I don’t care for Merkel and will publish stuff on ‘social networks’ stating so, are we ‘colluding’? This is Stalinism by back door.

    Social media like Facebook are explicitly global tools, to regulate what others say about US elections is a form of madness. You don’t see how absolutely ridiculous all of this looks like to any normal person looking at the accusations. If those things are now ‘illegal’ in US, then it is simply not a free country. And that would be a sad conclusion.

    Mueller danced around a bit, but at the end basically said that there is not much there. He saved America’s face – if he had declared that meeting a ‘Russian’ is a conspiracy, the laughter around the world would not stop. Be glad that a modicum of sanity prevailed, with some stupid face-saving verbiage about ‘interference’, blabla. If Washingtonians really believe this stuff, they will become a joke. Free speech, anybody in US left who understands that concept?

    • Replies: @Corvinus
  135. Interesting question. When did Mueller realize there was no case? He must’ve known that prior to last Friday. This article makes a good case that he likely knew one and a half years ago. Which must’ve had an effect on the midterms.

    https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2019-03-27/how-long-did-mueller-know-there-was-no-trump-russia-collusion

    • Replies: @Beckow
  136. Beckow says:
    @reiner Tor

    …When did Mueller realize there was no case?

    That depends entirely on his IQ. If Mueller has the critical thinking ability (IQ roughly at least 110-115), he knew it almost from the beginning – once it was clear that Trump was not paid by Russia to run for president. On the other hand, if he doesn’t possess the ability to think critically he is probably still confused.

  137. songbird says:
    @Mr. XYZ

    The US Census Bureau made various projections for 2060:

    Hispanics 119 million, 28.3% of the population.
    Blacks 62 million, 14.7%
    Asians 34 million, 8.2%
    Whites 43% (broad category in the census)

    Of course, those are the official stats, so they are are no doubt lowballing the numbers of nonwhites, not to mention the average white will be very old. They seem to really be lowballing the growth of blacks, considering the outward pressure developing in Africa. I think there will be a lot of Indians, for sure. But I will even say they are lowballing Hispanics.

    None of these projections take into account ideology, and the Dems are close to a lock on politics.

    • Replies: @Beckow
    , @Mr. XYZ
  138. Beckow says:
    @songbird

    …In 2060 Whites 43% (broad category in the census)

    One has to assume that the 1-2 million migrants coming to US each year are 80-90% non-white. If Whites are 43% overall, among young people it could be 30-35%. Also the White category is too broad.

    What we see is an official acknowledgment that US will not be a European culture or civilization. That is a dramatic change and it impacts all foreign policy areas. How is Europe – by 2060 still presumably white majority, although who knows – going to obey a non-European superpower. Why not China then?

    If history is a guide, non-European civilisation will lag behind in day-to-day technology, society order, and the basic due diligence required to run a modern advanced society (east Asia being an exception). I am aware of the optimistic multi-cultural view that it is all going to be even better, bit it is an untested proposition – and walking around London ethnic enclaves or Paris train stations, I don’t share that optimism.

    As so often before, a more advanced culture is giving its space to a less advanced one. This time, bizarrely without a fight and with enthusiasm that borders on insanity. Who Gods want to destroy, they first make them mad.

    • Replies: @songbird
    , @AP
  139. songbird says:
    @Beckow

    I think the picture may even be grimmer: according to Peter Frost, the Chinese TFR of 1.6 is an over-estimate, and they may soon be importing tens of millions of Africans and SE Asians. (I think Vietnamese would not be disastrous, but there is not enough of them.) One can have an honest street conversation about race in China, but the Chinese government is too invested in Africa and the third world for it to be honest, or to allow open discussion of this problem on the internet.

    The majority of ticket sales for most blockbusters in the US may already be nonwhite. IMO, Hollywood needs to be abandoned. We need a European alternative built around culture, positive family values, and natalism.

    I’m an optimist, in the sense that, I believe if the willpower were there (this would require some racism), these problems would be solvable. Nonwhites could be bribed to have less children or to remigrate. I could think of a thousand ways. Before, I mentioned turning off the heat, but you could perhaps turn it down to slightly above freeing and that would be enough. Quite easy with smart thermostats.

    My African package would be a lumpsum for the youth. Plus free internet, free black netflix, and free video games patched so that everyone is black. All of these things would be banned for blacks in Europe. They could not see a black person on TV or in a movie, except that it would be propaganda talking about how great Africa is, and what a great decision it is to move there. Cost entirely paid for by cuts to welfare.

    An interesting curveball is the development of male contraceptives. If they were, for instance, given free to blacks, I think it would totally collapse their fertility. Standard problem was that black women want to be loved by their children, since their men perpetually abandon them, so are willing to be single mothers, as Flynn realized. Probably not as true for the men.

  140. Mr. XYZ says:
    @songbird

    I think that the Asian % in these projections might be too low–especially if the US will shift to a more merit-based immigration system by that point in time. Asians should strongly benefit from such a move due to the high average IQ of various large Asian groups.

  141. Mr. XYZ says:
    @songbird

    Are you saying that Hispanics’ low average IQ makes most of them bad jurors? If so, then it must be even worse for Blacks, correct?

    • Replies: @songbird
  142. songbird says:
    @Mr. XYZ

    Essentially correct, though there are additive factors based on group identidy, both among the jury members as well as outside demographic factors that lead into politics in the courts and among the police.

    That blacks are a big problem on juries, I think was highlighted by the OJ Simpson case. Tom Wolfe did a pretty good summary of it in “Bonfire of the Vanities.” Essentially, lawyers look for black districts because it makes litigating easier. Blacks feel they are sticking it to the man, if they support a litigator seeking a large sum, even if the case is poor.

    Another major problem is lawfare. Nonwhites suing whites for discrimination. Jury composition matters there because of tribalism. And that is a massive economic cost since it facilitates the general program of wealth transfer through affirmative action and other means.

  143. AP says:
    @Mr. XYZ

    I honestly do wonder how much of the high crime rate in Latin America is genetic and how much is due to environmental factors.

    Good question. Uruguay is almost fully European, yet its homicide rate is 0f 7.69 is higher than that of the USA and a lot higher than in Spain or Italy, which provided settlers to Uruguay.

    BTW, I really do think that it’s terrible when a 75+% White person self-identifies as a minority for the purpose of benefiting from affirmative action. It’s what I call milking the system.

    I know an Argentine doctor of pure European descent (half Lithuanian, half Italian) who milked his “Latino” heritage for all it as worth in the USA. I don’t fault him for this, he admitted it was absurd and ridiculous, the people supporting such policies are to blame.

    • Replies: @DFH
  144. AP says:
    @Beckow

    What we see is an official acknowledgment that US will not be a European culture or civilization.

    Latinos are on average of half European descent, speak a European language and follow a European religion. Some % of them (at least half of Cubans, for example) are simply whites. I suspect you have never visited Latin America. A country that is 40% white “Anglo” and 35% Latino is a European culture or civilization.

    Western Europe is predicted to be 30% Muslim. This is much worse than America’s fate.

    • Replies: @DFH
    , @Beckow
    , @Gerard2
  145. AP says:
    @Mr. XYZ

    f a 40% White Mexican marries a 99% White American, their children are going to be around 70% White, but the 30% Native American ancestry could cause them to lose several IQ points or so relative to what they would have if they were 99% White.

    According to Jensen, Native AMericans and Mestizos have lower IQs than do whites, but the specific nature of their lower IQ scores follows the pattern of uneducated white groups (such as the Irish 100 years ago) and is different from the way low black IQ scores are lower. Jensen was suggesting it likely wasn’t genetic. Which makes sense, given that Natives are basically a mix of proto-Europeans and proto-Asians and Mexican Mestizos are a mix of Natives and Spaniards.

  146. DFH says:
    @AP

    Uruguay is almost fully European

    Incorrect

    .Our genetic admixture estimate showed evidence that the main genetic contribution comes from Europe with a small Amerindian and a minor African contribution with the admixture proportions: 84.1%, 10.4%, and 5.6% respectively

    https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/09723757.2005.11885929

    • Replies: @AP
  147. DFH says:
    @AP

    Latinos are on average of half European descent, speak a European language and follow a European religion.

    So Obama was a European?

    • Replies: @AP
  148. Beckow says:
    @AP

    I will give you Western Europe, no argument there, I think they are doomed, they have no cojones. (Although, what % white are Middle Easterners? Have you ever met a Turk or a Lebanese? or look at Assad and his wife, we can play this game until the last white European in London moves out, or is knifed.)

    I have been to Latin America and it is not what you describe; it is a Third World with some benefits. As DFH pointed out: your half would also make Obama a ‘white’. Latin America is a melange of races, some places more, others less, it is not Europe and never will be. The ones migrating to US are mostly from the lower classes and from available data, 80% mestizos. Cubans are a small group among them.

    35% Latino in US would effectively add 5-10 % points to the White category, but the overall shares wouldn’t change by much. At most, it would delay the de-Europeanization of America by 5-10 years. But you know where you are going.

    • Replies: @AP
  149. AP says:
    @DFH

    He is certainly more European than he is African. By descent he is as European as he is African (though his father was absentee), but his language is European and he was mostly raised by his European grandparents. He plays being “black” but it is mostly pretense.

    • Replies: @Beckow
  150. AP says:
    @DFH

    I stand corrected.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  151. Beckow says:
    @AP

    …Obama plays being “black” but it is mostly pretense.

    Quite a pretense, on a global level. Under neutral circumstances, Obama might be an all-right whitish guy with some ethnic background. But in the highly racially politicised US society, where spoils are divided based on one’s color, Obama went to the other extreme and has made a pretty good living doing it. (Although the big African woman that he paired up with must be quite a chore. Maybe that’s why he started all those sneaky wars, so he can pretend to be busy at night.)

    It is the combination of racial politics with quotas and the massive new migrant populations that makes the US situation so untenable – if it was a normal, neutral society it would matter a lot less.

  152. AP says:
    @Beckow

    Although, what % white are Middle Easterners? Have you ever met a Turk or a Lebanese? or look at Assad and his wife, we can play this game until the last white European in London moves out, or is knifed

    Mestizos are better than white Chechens.

    I have been to Latin America and it is not what you describe; it is a Third World with some benefits

    Depends where. Argentina and Uruguay are basically like Eastern European countries.

    Most Latinos in the USA are Mexican (63% of them are), with Puerto Ricans in second place (9.5 million), Salvadorans and Cubans are almost tied for third (3.8% and 3.7%, respectively):

    Mexico has almost the same GDP PPP as Belarus:

    https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.PP.CD?end=2013&locations=PR-MX-BY&start=1990&view=chart

    (though of course income is distributed far more unevenly and it has poverty, and wealth, unknown in Belarus)

    Puerto Rico is poor by American standards but richer than your Slovakia:

    https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.CD?locations=PR-SK-US&mod=article_inline

    https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.PP.CD?end=2013&locations=PR-US-SK&start=1990&view=chart

    If Slovakia, Poland, Belarus were next to the USA there would be a lot of immigration from those countries.

    • Replies: @Beckow
  153. Beckow says:
    @AP

    If my pickaxe could shoot I would have won that last war. But it can’t, and our Visegrad countries are not located south of the US border. So much for your ‘if‘. We are not moving, too hot there, and the women are too short (although I hear they are good at math).

    I have been to Argentina and it is not even close to the Visegrad countries. Let’s see: Buenos Aires, an airy sh.thole with minimal infrastructure, poor peons begging everywhere, collapsing currency (again), fire ants crawling up one’s a.s, crime through the roof, and living standards for most people somewhere around Romania. Is that what you meant, or maybe you meant the rising economic giant in the east: Ukraine (actually only Lviv), right? I knew a girl from Chile once, probably not safe to visit the country, but I hear Chile is the best in Latin America. One out of 23 countries?

    If you can find a single Slovak or Czech who will emigrate to Puerto Rico for its higher ‘living standard’, please let us know. But dream on if that assuages your sense of inferiority about having the ‘white’ mestizos crawling everywhere.

    You also always pivot away when you lose an argument: I specifically listed Lebanese and Turks, you went for the Chechens. Why do you that? It is dishonest. Who is mas blanco? A Turk or an average Mexican mestizo? And does it really matter?

    • Replies: @AP
  154. Gerard2 says:
    @AP

    Latinos are on average of half European descent, speak a European language and follow a European religion. Some % of them (at least half of Cubans, for example) are simply whites. I suspect you have never visited Latin America. A country that is 40% white “Anglo” and 35% Latino is a European culture or civilization.

    This is taking dumb scumbag thinking into a form of performance art you cretin.

    Americans and Australians and white-British /European South Africans are very similar in humour, mentality , approach to outdoor activity, business and so on……..they are all extremely different to Brits though (mother country)
    Incidentally, Canadians, New Zealanders and white Zimbabweans all conversely seem to have the same relation to their larger brother countries and similar mentalities …..but are all still extremely different to Brits

    Multiply these considerably differences by 1000 and we then have the differences of the most ‘European” Latino’s to their European ancestors you idiot…and the absurdity of comparing it to Muslims in Europe.

    Western Europe is predicted to be 30% Muslim. This is much worse than America’s fate

    Europe has had major areas under Muslim rule for extended periods of time (centuries) but still managed to force it’s way out of it you dumb prick..in that time it has still managed to continue with major scientific, engineering, artistic, medical and architectural achievement that also utilised what was enlightened from the Muslim side of things.

    American on the contrary has proven that , without the constant top-up /influx or highly talented Europeans and Asians …it’s population turns into brains of cabbage and lazy obese blowhards and societal collapse. It’s why so many of the successful Americans have tended to be no further than second generation out from a European or Asian immigrant – further generations of Americanisation and Hispanics…..and they become total idiots

    Europe under war… immense medical/engineering and scientific breakthroughs stemming from war ( not to mention literature)…..what were America’s ‘achievements’ during the time of it’s civil war? Yep, that’s right- nothing. Childrens/graduates textbooks in science , engineering and arts are , if not empty, then relatively scarce of Americans….even though Pindostan has had wealth and been war-free for the large majority of time since 1776 you idiot

    Anyway with a POS nutjob as yourself it would be best to keep away from issues of immigration…at least the Baltics with their Nazi scumbag escapees to America after WW2 sent back mildly competent people after the end of the USSR. Banderatard sadist scumbags….like the lowlifes who would have produced yourself produced the dumbest, lowest earning, discredited freaks in America..sent afew of them back to Ukraine…….and they have caused disaster after disaster there.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  155. AP says:
    @Beckow

    I have been to Argentina and it is not even close to the Visegrad countries.

    I wrote “Argentina and Uruguay are basically like Eastern European countries” not specifically Visegrad countries.

    You also always pivot away when you lose an argument: I specifically listed “Eastern European”, you went for Visegrad.

    Argentina’s GDP PPP is about the same as that of Bulgaria, higher than in Belarus, and where Poland was in 2009 and Slovakia was in 2006:

    https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.PP.CD?locations=AR-BG-BY-PL-SK

    Buenos Aires, an airy sh.thole with minimal infrastructure, poor peons begging everywhere, collapsing currency (again), fire ants crawling up one’s a.s, crime through the roof,

    Homicide rate in Buenos Aires is 4.98:

    https://www.thebubble.com/murder-rate-buenos-aires-argentina-2018/

    It is between Riga and Talinn.

    Like southern Italy (the source of much of B.A.’s population), there are pickpockets and purse-snatchers on mopeds.

    If you can find a single Slovak or Czech who will emigrate to Puerto Rico for its higher ‘living standard’, please let us know

    Why would they when they can go to Germany or France? Or the US mainland? Puerto Rico may have a higher GDP per capita PPP than Slovakia but Slovakia is closer to much richer places than Puerto Rico.

    You also always pivot away when you lose an argument

    I’ve never lost an argument against you. But when you discuss pivots you are projecting again (see above).

    Tell me again how Yanukovich won the election in Transcarpathia in 2010, or how it takes hours to drive from Kosice to the Ukrainian border, or how Ukraine is collapsing 🙂

    I specifically listed Lebanese and Turks, you went for the Chechens.

    Because they are even whiter, and even less desirable. Mestizos are better than Muslims, although I can clarify and state that totally secular Muslims like many Turks are better.

    But of course the Muslims who are flooding Europe are not Turks or Lebanese. They are Algerians, Syrians, Afghanis, etc. So that was your pivot (as you confessed, a dishonest one).

    • Replies: @Gerard2
  156. Gerard2 says:
    @AP

    Tell me again how Yanukovich won the election in Transcarpathia in 2010

    except that he won by about 8% in the first round there you idiot ( without state apparatus working for him),probably won the second rounds as well, Party of regions comfortably won Parliamentary elections there. As befits the twat you are the “repeat a lie(spamtroll) enough times so it becomes fact”

    or how it takes hours to drive from Kosice to the Ukrainian border, or how Ukraine is collapsing

    Those are all established facts you maggot. That journey simply doesn’t take place. I know it from years of driving there and what practically every Ukrainian agrees…..Ukraine is wildly accepted as a hellhole for roads and driving. You don’t know because you’re a lowlife freak with no knowledge/experience of the place and can carry on making-up time-wasting horseshit. I go on experience…you just make up laughably retarded insecure nonsense in the face of another defeat.
    Incidentally, without even bothering in experience I think it’s something like 133rd out of 137 in terms of road standard for the entire world you idiot! 133rd! That is pretty much white Afrika.

    But of course these very facts is precisely why a lowlife imbecile as yourself in on here 22 hours a day

    Why would they when they can go to Germany or France?

    Hahaha …the main point being that since the end of Communism -successful, prosperous, wonderful countries like Hungary, Slovakia and the Czech Republic had kept their population numbers the SAME….indicative of their content in the high quality lifestyle, culture, infrastructure, family and so on. They have large respect but no great desire to go to Germany, France and are non-existent in the UK and the US.

    All this is markedly different to failure, idiot-lead , kamikaze countries like Poland, which, of course, has parasited and had vast swarms of it’s population leave for the UK and Germany, some of them to France( although for most cases it’s just a lot of them pretending to be French for some insecure idiot reasoning)….and the Poles have nowhere near the same standard of living, cultural success, wealth/prosperity of Hungarians, Slovakia/Czech

    • Replies: @AP
  157. melanf says:
    @Beckow

    I disagree about your point, nice map, though. The amount of usable land Russia has – due to its size – is a multiple of combined lands of all large European countries.

    Although these lands have large areas, most of these lands have very low productivity. Here

    may 2017 in St. Petersburg. Such a cold and unpredictable climate is almost everywhere in European Russia.

    Тhe historical lands of Russia have an extremely cold and unpredictable climate, extremely low soil fertility, a complete lack of minerals, the monotony of the landscape (which hindered the development of trade). The territory of historical Russia was almost completely landlocked, and (because of the neighborhood with the steppe) is doomed to constant destructive invasion of the nomads.
    This combination of negative factors was unique – such adverse conditions is absent in any other place in the world where exist an agricultural civilization.

    Of course territorial expansion and technological progress leveled these factors, but leveled only partially.

    • Agree: Adam
  158. AP says:
    @Gerard2

    Tell me again how Yanukovich won the election in Transcarpathia in 2010

    except that he won by about 8% in the first round there

    1. “First round” isn’t the election.
    2. In the first round there as no “8%”. There were three significant pro-Russian candidates and five pro-Western ones. The five anti-Russian ones together beat the three pro-Russian ones together. Because there were fewer candidates splitting the pro-Russian votes Yanukovich with 30% got a 3% more votes than Tymoshenko with 26%. But Yanukovich + Tyhypko + Communist got 41% while Tymoshenko + Yatseniuk + Yushchenko + Svoboda + Hrytsenko got 47%. In the second round Tymoshenko beat Yanukovich 52% to 42% (I was wrong when I wrote it was only 6% difference), winning the province:

    https://uk.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%92%D0%B8%D0%B1%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%B8_%D0%9F%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%B7%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BD%D1%82%D0%B0_%D0%A3%D0%BA%D1%80%D0%B0%D1%97%D0%BD%D0%B8_2010#%D0%A0%D0%B5%D0%B7%D1%83%D0%BB%D1%8C%D1%82%D0%B0%D1%82%D0%B8_%D0%BF%D0%B5%D1%80%D1%88%D0%BE%D0%B3%D0%BE_%D1%82%D1%83%D1%80%D1%83

    But Beckow claimed Yanukovich won Transcarpathia in 2010 🙂

    That summarizes his “expertise” on Ukraine.

  159. Corvinus says:
    @Thorfinnsson

    “just want you to know i didn’t read your post”

    Meaning you did read the post and you lack the intellectual chops to substantively comment on it.

    “then i saw the failures to use the blockquote tag (moron) and lots of unnecessary use of caps lock”

    The purpose was to illustrate the differences in legal terms. Do you require a picture book?

  160. Corvinus says:
    @neutral

    “You’re an idiot, this “investigation” was utter horseshit. If you want to speak collusion how about you speak about the billions that go to Israel and all the other favours that comes it way.”

    Rather than get all emotional like a little girl, address in a meaningful way the substance of my post. Are you able in engage in discourse, or are you going to let your foul mouthedness get the best of you yet again?

  161. Corvinus says:
    @Beckow

    “You display a classical case of verbal nihilism, or you are simply too confused to tell a day from night.”

    Do you also need a picture book?

    “If there is no crime, there can be no ‘obstruction’ of the investigation of that crime.”

    Mueller was investigating if a specific crime took place. There was significant evidence that a crime took place, but stopped short of an indictment because the evidence did not rise up to the level required for a conviction beyond a reasonable doubt. As a result of the investigation, other crimes were unearthed, which has resulted in nearly 2 dozen other legal inquiries. Furthermore, even Barr said Trump was not exonerated on obstruction.

    “That is a prima facie principle in all legal systems…”

    It is evident from the public record there is prima facie evidence of conspiracies by Trump and/or his inner circle. The fact that his acts and statements were done in public does not prevent them being criminal conspiracies. Nor is it necessary in the law of criminal conspiracy to prove that all participants knew all the details of the conspiracy, or that they knew all the other participants. Nor is it even necessary that the conspiracy be implemented. Participation in an illegal agreement is enough by itself to constitute a crime.

    “What would a ‘collusion’ be? Is talking to any foreigner during an election – if that foreigner’s country has a preference in that election – a ‘conspiracy’ now in US? Are you mad?”

    Thanks for the straw man.

    “Social media like Facebook are explicitly global tools, to regulate what others say about US elections is a form of madness. You don’t see how absolutely ridiculous all of this looks like to any normal person looking at the accusations. If those things are now ‘illegal’ in US”

    LOL, again, another strawman. The Three Little Pigs thank you.

    Remember in high school when you sent a friend over to the guy you liked to get a sense of whether he would go out with you if you asked? The friend could claim he was asking out of his own curiosity, to save you from embarrassment if the guy was uninterested. You could claim you never asked your friend to talk to the guy. The guy might guess you sent your friend, but he might not be able to prove it. That is plausible deniability. Your friend was acting as a “cutout” — to hide your involvement — with a cover story, that he was asking for his own curiosity.

    In an intelligence operation, plausible deniability is more sophisticated. Intelligence officers use individuals or businesses that are not part of the government but are, at arm’s length, working on behalf of the government as cutouts, and they can develop much more complex cover stories by using witting and unwitting foreign agents and front companies. Mueller’s investigation centered on this relationship. Given the fact that there have been a number of Trump associates who were indicted and/or were found guilty, there is enough evidence to suggest, but not yet definitively prove, that several crimes have been committed that are being duly investigated.

    Again, do you need a picture book?

    • Replies: @Beckow
  162. Beckow says:
    @Corvinus

    Again, do you need a picture book?

    Yeah, send a picture book. You seem to spend a lot of time with pictures and it is good for you, people with paranoid tendencies benefit when looking at pictures.

    Your arguments are evasive:

    – You don’t address the fact that without a crime there can be no ‘obstruction’. Period. There is no such thing is ‘partially guilty’, if there is not enough evidence, that means there is no crime. If there is, then there is a crime. It is a binary: your silly posturing about ‘doesn’t rise to the level…’ – is just another way of saying that there is no evidence that a crime was committed.

    By your convoluted logic, one could say that Tony Blair is a pedophile. Was he convicted? No, because there is at this point insufficient evidence, but we know that he is a pedophile. Would that be normal in any legal system?

    – You claim that my Facebook examples are a ‘straw man‘. Why? I have followed the story carefully and the only actual charges were for posts by the Russian trolls on Facebook. The argument was that they improperly interfered with the US election and that the trolls hid behind false identities. That is a joke and I explained above why. If you disagree, tell us why. Why would opinions by anyone be a crime? What kind of a legal system would criminalise ‘insults’ as interference? Can others do it next time some American calls Maduro a ‘thug’ – and pretends on Facebook that his name is ‘Sanchez‘?

    Was there anything else that has been specifically charged? The email hack has been discussed a lot, but no actual proof or a specific charge was made because there was insufficient evidence. If the all seeing US intelligence has no evidence, I am rather doubtful of the accusations. In any case, they have not been made, so there is no ‘crime’ to discuss there.

    This is done and it has been a fiasco for US. To any outside observer it looks like an overload of paranoia and some real stupidity. None of the media accusations have been proven. If you feel that we are wrong, tell us why – but don’t quote yourself and some ‘agency’, quote specific facts, something that has been proven that it happened. Then tell us why is it illegal. All else are just words that you use to medicate your embarrassment.

    • Replies: @Corvinus
  163. Dmitry says:
    @AP

    Travel around Spain, look at the people in the average supermarket there. Even in Northern Spain, the moment you walk into the cafe, before you try to say a word to them, they will usually know you are a foreigner (if you are from another European nationality) from your appearance.

    A significant proportion of Spanish people look European, like French people. But Spanish people also include perhaps a third Arab, or even one half Arab, looking, quite brown people, more or less depending on the region of Spain.

    Spanish people are the most common population who moved to Latin America, so it’s not surprised many Latin American people of Spanish descent also have quite an Arab, sometimes more than American Indian, appearance.

    All that said, I wonder about the relevance of these discussions. 1/3- 1/2 brown Spanish people, live much better than most white people in e.g. Krasnoyarsk.

    Spanish cities and their populations’ behaviour, are often a lot more civilized, than most cities in countries with people who have a lot less melanin.

  164. Dmitry says:
    @Gerard2

    There is a lot of cultural connection across a “Spanish world”. (This is less, but still a bit similar, to the cultural connection of all the Russian world).

    In Spain itself, they have millions of Latin American immigrants, and you can buy Yerba Mate or the salty Colombian cheese, in any other shop (even the Chinese shops there).

    And in Latin America, lots of Spanish people are constantly going there, often to work as educated specialists.

    Spanish engineering companies, for example, win contracts for building much of the infrastructure in Latin America. I know Spanish colleagues and they all seem to have visited Latin American countries (for tourism at least).

    Spanish newspapers are all reporting about Latin America, much more than anglosaxon or Russian media.

    Spanish people will know far more about the disaster of Venezuela, than in Russian media – for example – where journalists seem a bit ignorant about what a shithole Venezuela has become from socialism.

    There are also some cultural similar trends. For example, the main story in Spain is about “machismo violence” (men killing their wives). And then this is also one of the main stories of Latin American countries like Argentina.

    Obviously differences are also quite huge. Just compare the murder rates between almost all Latin American countries, and Spain.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  165. Dmitry says:
    @Dmitry

    Obviously differences are also quite huge. Just compare the murder rates between almost all Latin American countries, and Spain.

    But political culture was not that different, until recently – Franco is more typical of a Latin American dictator, than equivalent dictators in Europe.

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
  166. Corvinus says:
    @Beckow

    “Yeah, send a picture book. You seem to spend a lot of time with pictures and it is good for you, people with paranoid tendencies benefit when looking at pictures.”

    That would be you who either willfully ignores what the law says or are that dense.

    “You don’t address the fact that without a crime there can be no ‘obstruction’. Period.”

    I did address in a substantial manner. Whether you want to ignore the points made is on you. Again, Barr made a summary of the report and concluded that Trump was not exonerated. However, that summary is not the actual report. We need to see the exact details to see how and why that decision was made.

    “It is a binary: your silly posturing about ‘doesn’t rise to the level…’ – is just another way of saying that there is no evidence that a crime was committed.”

    No, it is not binary. There are different standards in different circumstances. For example, in criminal cases, the burden of proving the defendant’s guilt is on the prosecution, and they must establish that fact beyond a reasonable doubt. In civil cases, the plaintiff has the burden of proving his case by a preponderance of the evidence. A “preponderance of the evidence” and “beyond a reasonable doubt” are different standards, requiring different amounts of proof. There are different standards in different circumstances. Depending on the jurisdiction and type of action, the legal standard to satisfy the burden of proof in litigation may include, but is not limited to:

    beyond a reasonable doubt
    clear and convincing evidence
    preponderance of the evidence
    probable cause
    reasonable belief
    reasonable indications
    reasonable suspicion
    some credible evidence
    some evidence
    substantial evidence

    “By your convoluted logic, one could say that Tony Blair is a pedophile. Was he convicted? No, because there is at this point insufficient evidence, but we know that he is a pedophile. Would that be normal in any legal system?”

    You really enjoy strawmen. Prosecutors go into a case having to meet various standards. First, the evidence would have to show that Blair can be indicated for that crime. Then, the prosecutor has to weigh in is there enough evidence to convict. One can SPECULATE that he is pedophile, but there has to be evidence beyond a reasonable doubt to convict.

    “Why? I have followed the story carefully and the only actual charges were for posts by the Russian trolls on Facebook.”

    Clearly you did not follow the story carefully, as the crux of the argument was based on the alleged hacking of DNC headquarters and Hillary Clinton’s emails. Mueller was not investigating “insults”, he was investigating, as are almost 2 dozen other jurisdictions, instances of significant disruption to our election system as well as a host of other crimes.

    “If the all seeing US intelligence has no evidence, I am rather doubtful of the accusations. In any case, they have not been made, so there is no ‘crime’ to discuss there.”

    Not “no evidence”, they have enough evidence to suggest crimes were committed, but not enough to convict beyond a reasonable doubt. So let Congress and the American people view the Mueller Report. We citizens have the liberty to view the findings. Would you not agree?

    “This is done”

    Far from it, friend. Several close associates of Trump have been indicted and/or will be serving jail time. Something is amiss. Remember, it took two and a half years for Watergate to unfold. Complex cases such as this one will have their “ups” and “downs”.

    • Replies: @Beckow
  167. @Thorfinnsson

    Thanks for not reading it so I don’t have to either.

    • Agree: reiner Tor
  168. Beckow says:
    @Corvinus

    You doubled-down on the stupidity and desperation. You don’t seem to comprehend how autocratic, arbitrary and anti-democratic the whole mess looks to outside observers. There was no crime! You still could not name a single crime – alleged after 2 years is very weak, so is ‘reasonable suspicion’.

    What was the crime you are alleging? Can you specifically describe it: who, what, when? and is there any evidence after 2 years that it happened?

    This is not a ‘civil case’ so you preponderance of evidence is a distraction, it doesn’t apply. This is a criminal case – you have to show evidence beyond reasonable doubt. I am not sure what all the other gradations you list all about: when would they apply? In what court is ‘reasonable suspicion’ an actionable thing? And please, media or politicians can and will do whatever they want – that has no legal bearing on anything. If you want the report voted on by Congress, that is a political act – actually a form of political persecution – but why not? Do it, do anti-Trump people have the votes?

    Many look at Blair an see a pedophile. It is a reasonable suspicion. There have been a few articles in the British media ‘speculating’ on it. So is he done? Can we just call Tony Blair a pedophile? Or do we have to prove it? can we say that there is ‘some evidence’, and then simply call him a pedophile?

    You talk about the hack of Dem party: it has not been charged. There was talk about it, suspicions, but no charges. Why? If after 2 years of the best technological investigation in the world, by people with unlimited access, and they cannot charge anyone with it, then maybe it didn’t happen that way.

    Trump’s associates were indicted for process violations during the investigations. Or some old tax violations. In normal countries people don’t get charged with not cooperating with investigations into themselves – that is simply bizarre, and very authoritarian, Stalin would love it.

    But what single crime was committed that Trump is responsible for? And if you cannot come up with one, just shut up and don’t embarrass yourself (or the country). You seem to have lost basic standards and that is sad.

    • Agree: Adam
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    , @Corvinus
  169. Anonymous[151] • Disclaimer says:
    @Beckow

    Nobody is going to produce detailed evidence that would directly or indirectly reveal intelligence practices for the sake of a trial that is never going to happen for a bunch of people who are never going to be extradited. We “know” that Russia was behind the hacks in the same way we “know” the US and Israeli governments were behind StuxNet: sophisticated attacks that advance fairly narrow government interests are usually the work of state actors. It would certainly be of a piece with Putin’s posture towards the West in general, America in particular and Hillary Clinton above all. Maybe there is some cabal of pro-Trump, anti-NATO hackers out there working day and night without pay to discredit the enemies of Vladimir Putin, but on the balance of probabilities it seems unlikely.

    Now leaking a campaign manager’s emails is hardly an act of war and is not a reason to risk a nuclear exchange; at worst one would quietly order some kind of retaliatory in-kind attack, just to prove one’s capabilities. The US media are making a mountain out of a mole hill because of their deranged hatred of both Putin and Trump. But the position of many in this comments section (not necessarily you)–that Putin would never stoop to such a thing–is equally absurd.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    , @Beckow
  170. @Anonymous

    We’re talking about some Hillary Clinton and Podesta level cyber security here, it was certainly easier to crack than a military establishment. It’s also unproven that it was done over the internet, it could easily be just a normal leak by an intern, but it certainly didn’t necessarily require some super government level capabilities. Unlike the Stuxnet case, there’s not even a case that leaking it was some particular Russian interest. These were only moderately damaging emails, while leaking them immediately drew the attention to Russia. Finally, Wikileaks denied the allegations. They have a better track record than the US Intelligence Community.

    But yes, theoretically it could certainly have been Russia. It’s certainly not above them.

    • Agree: Beckow
    • Replies: @for-the-record
  171. @Dmitry

    But political culture was not that different, until recently – Franco is more typical of a Latin American dictator, than equivalent dictators in Europe.

    I think Franco was rather similar to Mediterranean dictators from Portugal, Italy, Greece.

  172. Corvinus says:
    @Beckow

    “You doubled-down on the stupidity and desperation.”

    “You don’t seem to comprehend how autocratic, arbitrary and anti-democratic the whole mess looks
    to outside observers.”

    That would be a mischaracterization on your part. The investigation is part and parcel to the rule of law.

    “There was no crime! You still could not name a single crime – alleged after 2 years is very weak, so is ‘reasonable suspicion’.”

    You mean a lack of evidence for there to be an indictment. The evidence exists. Let’s see it.

    “What was the crime you are alleging? Can you specifically describe it: who, what, when? and is there any evidence after 2 years that it happened?”

    The evidence is in the report, as well as nearly two dozen ongoing investigations.

    “This is not a ‘civil case’ so you preponderance of evidence is a distraction, it doesn’t apply.”

    Another strawman on your part, as I never made directly or indirectly that claim.

    “This is a criminal case – you have to show evidence beyond reasonable doubt. I am not sure what all the other gradations you list all about: when would they apply?”

    As one goes up this “ladder”, the evidence is stronger. Why wouldn’t we want to see the evidence?

    “If you want the report voted on by Congress, that is a political act – actually a form of political persecution”

    Actually, it is a legal act. he president can simply order the report to be released, or the Attorney General can release it. Congress can go through the courts to demand that they view the report. Why shouldn’t citizens be able to see what is inside, considering that Barr gave a four page summary of a document that is hundreds of pages and is meticulous.

    “There was talk about it, suspicions, but no charges. Why? If after 2 years of the best technological investigation in the world, by people with unlimited access, and they cannot charge anyone with it, then maybe it didn’t happen that way.”

    Again, the report will provide us insight as to why Mueller, who was focusing on a narrow scope, i.e. one particular aspect of collusion, felt the evidence did not reach the level to indict. But if the evidence is at 70 or 80% on that gradation scale, that is damning against Trump.

    “Trump’s associates were indicted for process violations during the investigations. Or some old tax violations.”

    No, they were charged with forms of collusion.

    “In normal countries people don’t get charged with not cooperating with investigations into themselves – that is simply bizarre, and very authoritarian, Stalin would love it.”

    Actually, it is part of our legal system. It is routine, nor other than normal or bizarre or authoritarian.

    • Replies: @Beckow
  173. Beckow says:
    @Corvinus

    You failed to respond.

    I asked: what, when, who about the alleged crime and you said nothing. Suggesting that it is in the ‘report’ is evasive. If it was, and AG summary didn’t mention it, don’t you think that Mueller (or his team) would say something by now? You are grasping at straws.

    You got nothing, you should admit it and move on.

    Actually, it is part of our legal system. It is routine

    If compulsory self-incrimination is part of US legal system now, that would be a real issue. I don’t think it is, you are looking for ‘obstruction’ anytime someone doesn’t salute and doesn’t do what the ‘system’ demands. Again a huge over–reach. That’s why you lost this one, the accusations were not grounded in reality.

    • Replies: @Corvinus
  174. Beckow says:
    @Anonymous

    I get your points. But the main issue is the extent to which this has been escalated and exaggerated, pretending that something like this – hacking – has never happened before, or that top leaders from other countries have nothing better to do than to personally order hacking of some Washington loser. That escalation has turned a hum-drum low level routine pissing match into a crisis among nuclear superpowers. That cannot be good for anybody. Or is it?

    The reason I push back on the specifics is that it helps to establish what is really going on. The alleged hacks happened, and there are multiple explanations on by whom or how. To slide over that complexity and say ‘Putin hacked DNC‘ – as the story now goes by almost everybody, including people on Trump’s side – is not strictly speaking correct. It could have happened, or something else could have happened. Until someone produces some evidence it is all a speculation. One may almost say that all this is just ‘conspiracy theories’, some better, some worse, but nothing actionable.

  175. Corvinus says:
    @Beckow

    “I asked: what, when, who about the alleged crime and you said nothing. Suggesting that it is in the ‘report’ is evasive.”

    Not at all evasive. Over 400 detailed pages is important here for insight and context. If 90% or more proof of conspiracy—a narrow vein of collusion that excludes many criminal collusive acts currently being investigated—is what is required to convict someone (and under Department of Justice Regulations to indict them in the first instance), what percent proof establishes them as a national security threat? Besides, Trump not facing an indictment for conspiracy and obstruction does NOT end the NYAG, MDAG, NJAG, NDCA, NYCDA, or other active state-level criminal probes.

    Here is solid review for you to help you learn more about an extremely complex case.

    https://www.newsandguts.com/trump-russia/

    • Replies: @Anon
  176. @reiner Tor

    It’s also unproven that it was done over the internet, it could easily be just a normal leak by an intern, but it certainly didn’t necessarily require some super government level capabilities.

    WHY THE DNC WAS NOT HACKED BY THE RUSSIANS

    By

    William Binney, former Technical Director NSA

    Larry Johnson, former State CT and CIA

    The FBI, CIA and NSA claim that the DNC emails published by WIKILEAKS on July 22, 2016 were obtained via a Russian hack, but more than three years after the alleged “hack” no forensic evidence has been produced to support that claim. In fact, the available forensic evidence contradicts the official account that blames the leak of the DNC emails on a Russian internet “intrusion”. The existing evidence supports an alternative explanation–the files taken from the DNC between 23 and 25 May 2016 and were copied onto a file storage device, such as a thumb drive.

    If the Russians actually had conducted an internet based hack of the DNC computer network then the evidence of such an attack would have been collected and stored by the National Security Agency. The technical systems to accomplish this task have been in place since 2002. The NSA had an opportunity to make it clear that there was irrefutable proof of Russian meddling . . .

    If those emails had been hijacked over the internet then NSA also would have been able to track the electronic path they traveled over the internet. This kind of data would allow the NSA to declare without reservation or caveat that the Russians were guilty. The NSA could admit to such a fact in an unclassified assessment without compromising sources and methods. . .

    Notwithstanding the DOJ press release, an examination of the Wikileaks DNC files do not support the claim that the emails were obtained via spearphising. Instead, the evidence clearly shows that the emails posted on the Wikileaks site were copied onto an electronic media, such as a CD-ROM or thumbdrive before they were posted at Wikileaks. The emails posted on Wikileaks were saved using the File Allocation Table (aka FAT) computer file system architecture. . .

    The final curiosity is that the DNC never provided the FBI access to its servers in order for qualified FBI technicians to conduct a thorough forensic examination. If this had been a genuine internet hack, it would be very easy for the NSA to identify when the information was taken and the route it moved after being hacked from the server. The NSA had the technical collection systems in place to enable analysts to know the date and time of the messages. But that has not been done.

    Taken together, these disparate data points combine to paint a picture that exonerates alleged Russian hackers and implicates persons within our law enforcement and intelligence community taking part in a campaign of misinformation, deceit and incompetence. It is not a pretty picture.

    https://turcopolier.typepad.com/sic_semper_tyrannis/2019/02/why-the-dnc-was-not-hacked-by-the-russians.html

  177. Anon[178] • Disclaimer says:
    @Corvinus

    Not at all evasive. Over 400 detailed pages is important here for insight and context.

    Only to those with the clearances to evaluate and make the pertinent decisions. And who aren’t demonstrated partisan zealots who have been more than willing to mortgage this nation’s social fabric to pursue a conspiracy theory. One that gave them their only chance at de facto reversing the election of a candidate for which they went to unprecedented measures to defeat through their agents in both the press and the NatSec State.

    So, no, we won’t be listening to any of the partisan NatSec people who sullied their positions in the Federal government to sign a public letter against Trump the candidate.

    Political currency is important. Right now your contingent has none.

    what percent proof establishes them as a national security threat?

    See above. Perhaps the NatSec State should have thought about that before they chose to abuse their office for their partisan politics and sign a public letter against Trump the candidate. Like you, they have no political capital. They should have valued it more when they had it.

    Besides, Trump not facing an indictment for conspiracy and obstruction does NOT end the NYAG, MDAG, NJAG, NDCA, NYCDA, or other active state-level criminal probes.

    It will, effectively if not politically and in the public eye. These probes are nothing without the political currency that your contingent now entirely lacks. There is no hope of pressing any of them.

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