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Marine Le Pen got just 4.0% of the vote in the 11th arrondissement of Paris in the first round of the French Presidential elections.

Emmanuel Macron, who said that terrorism will be part of our daily lives for years to come (echoing London Mayor Sadiq Khan’s sentiment that this is just “part and parcel of” life in a major city), got a stunning 34.8%.

It is an elite central district, where the average house costs about 10,000 Euros per square meter, and hosts relatively few Arab-African immigrants.

It also hosts the Bataclan theater, the site of the worst terrorist attack in Western Europe in the past decade.

And Le Pen here got 1% point lower than the 5.0% she got in Paris as a whole, and the 4.9% she got in the previous Presidential election in 2012.

It’s time to take the #blackpill on France. Le Pen isn’t going to win, or even come close.

Not unless there’s a dirty nuke attack in the center of Paris, and as per above, I’m not even sure that would do the trick!

There was a hope, one which I subscribed to, that the polls were understating her support, due to the Front National’s lack of respectability and the hostile media climate. We saw it with Brexit. We saw it with Trump. But France refused to complete the trifecta.

The French pollsters, apparently, were better than their Anglo-Saxon counterparts (or luckier), and if anything, somewhat overestimated Le Pen’s popularity.

Overall first round election results:

Liste des candidats Voix % Inscrits % Exprimés
M. Emmanuel MACRON 8 657 326 18,19 24,01
Mme Marine LE PEN 7 679 493 16,14 21,30
M. François FILLON 7 213 797 15,16 20,01
M. Jean-Luc MÉLENCHON 7 060 885 14,84 19,58
M. Benoît HAMON 2 291 565 4,82 6,36
M. Nicolas DUPONT-AIGNAN 1 695 186 3,56 4,70
M. Jean LASSALLE 435 365 0,91 1,21
M. Philippe POUTOU 394 582 0,83 1,09
M. François ASSELINEAU 332 588 0,70 0,92
Mme Nathalie ARTHAUD 232 428 0,49 0,64
M. Jacques CHEMINADE 65 598 0,14 0,18

Her final result of 21.3% was considerably below the ~24% average of the nearly one hundred polls one month prior to the election.

As such, we cannot hope for the polls to be cardinally wrong, and there are looking very, very bad for /ourgal/.

Direct polls of her performanc e against Macron show a consistent lead for him of 20% points.

france-elections-2017-2-opinion-poll

Likewise, simple arithmetic models of second-choice preferences applied to the electorates of the knocked out candidates also suggest that she will lose by at least 20% points.

france-election-2017-2-voting-intentions-2Even most of Fillon’s voters will go with Macron, especially after his endorsemenet of the Establishment candidate. Melenchon refused to endorse either, but the polls suggest his voters will overwhelmingly go with Macron as well.

There’s no much hope from other quarters, either. Dupont-Aignan is a solid Gaullist, but even his base are split on Le Pen. Most of the rest are Communists and anarchists of various hues who are going to vote for Macron the Outsider.

Turnout was already high, at 78%, and cannot be increased much further.

france-election-2017-2-voting-intentions-1

My back of the envelope – well, jotted down on Excel – calculations suggest that if the electorate voters as in the first chart above and the rest splits 50/50 between Macron and Le Pen – the latter, an assumption highly favorable to Le Pen – Macron will still win by 63% to 37%.

This ENEF poll (via Philippe Lemoine, see chart right) confirms the dismal outlook for Le Pen.

This is due to the fundamental differences between the French and American political systems.

If the US was a multiparty democracy, then somebody like Trump representing the nationalist part of the political spectrum would also have gotten 25% of the vote, with the constitunet elements of the Republican party splintering between religious conservatives like Cruz (Fillon) and financiers (Jeb!/Rubio), and with Hillary Clinton proceeding to wreck him in the runoffs. It was ironically by dint of its electoral system, long considered by observers as being very much resistant to populists from one extreme of the political spectrum or another, that someone like Trump could come to power by dint of Republican party loyalty. (Of course, Trump’s subsequent moderation/neoconization – cross out as per your own ideological preferences – might yet prove that said observers were right after all).

macdonald-german-political-interference In France, it is basically Gallic Jeb! – successfully portrayed by the “free and impartial Western press” as an outsider, despite him having served as a Minister in Hollande’s government, worked at a Rothschild bank, and attended Bilderberger conferences – with the support of both Hillary Clinton, Cruz, many of Bernie’s voters (if not the man himself), and the entirety of the international globalist cabal against the true political outsider, Le Pen.

As regardless the future of nationalism in France, and indeed of the French nation, I suppose the only realistic way forwards is to focus on widening the Front National’s reach so as to prepare the way for a more effective challenge in 2022. For the first time, nationalist forces are now outright winning many regions, and ironically, the Bilderbergers’ anointment of Macron as their representative in France has redefined the political struggle to be more in line with Marine Le Pen’s own formulation: “There is no left or right, only nationalists and globalists.

Though in net terms, this is still a disaster. Especially jarring is the apparent obliviousness of both the affluent, well-educated French elites in places like Paris, and the as yet non-enriched majority French areas in places like Britanny, that overwhelmingly vote against Le Pen and their own demographic dispossession.

As always, the race is between uncuckening and demographics; between White-World Supremacy Conservation…

marion-le-pen

… and the Rising Tide of Color.

vibrant-diversity-paris

France might only have a couple more electoral cycles to start reversing things before its submersion into Sub-Saharan Africa becomes irreversible.

 
• Category: Ideology • Tags: European Right, France, Nationalism 
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  1. reiner Tor says: • Website

    We saw it with Brexit. We saw it with Brexit.

    In the second sentence I guess you meant Trump.

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  2. Anon says: • Disclaimer

    “France might only have a couple more electoral cycles to start reversing things before its submersion into Sub-Saharan Africa becomes irreversible.”

    If the under-5 population is 1/3+ or maybe even 40% non-white in France I think with increasing mixing every generation, most people will be biracial or partially mixed in the distant future.

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  3. Anon says: • Disclaimer

    Viva la Françafrique-in-Europe.

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  4. Glossy says: • Website

    I wonder how much of the result in Brittany was Breton, anti-French nationalism. It must exist, I just don’t know how strong it is.

    If she gets 40% nationally, I think that will be an all-time high for FN. So the global populust-nationalist trend continues.

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    • Agree: Randal
    • Replies: @Glossy
    By the way, I saw a SiP article that praised Macron, a former investment banker, for taking away vacation days and the like from people who do useful work in France. He pushed through some kind of a libertardializing economic package while in government some years ago.
    , @Anatoly Karlin
    Here it is: https://sputnikipogrom.com/politics/70380/election-presidentielle/

    That was a very sad affair.

    We are actually planning to dissect it on the next ROGPR podcast.

    France is far more anti-capitalist than the US, and considerably more so even than Russia (according to opinion polls). If the FN moves right, she will simply lose the white proles who have defected en masse from the Socialists to the FN.

    In any case the race/nationality issue in France is now at least 10x more important than any economic considerations, so it is especially maladaptive for a nationalist resource to make that a focal point of their critique.
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  5. Glossy says: • Website
    @Glossy
    I wonder how much of the result in Brittany was Breton, anti-French nationalism. It must exist, I just don't know how strong it is.

    If she gets 40% nationally, I think that will be an all-time high for FN. So the global populust-nationalist trend continues.

    By the way, I saw a SiP article that praised Macron, a former investment banker, for taking away vacation days and the like from people who do useful work in France. He pushed through some kind of a libertardializing economic package while in government some years ago.

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    • Replies: @Bill
    It's maddening. The guy comes right out and says "I'm going to screw you to the wall," and still he will win.
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  6. Altai says:

    It may not be quite that bad. She’ll probably still lose, but Patrick Le Brun suggested that the sudden rise of Melenchon had come at greater cost to Le Pen than pollsters realised. With him out of the second round and Macron being Macron, they can be expected to vote for her if anyone.

    It would fit into the narrative of the pollsters and media constantly underestimating the appeal of anti-immigration parties to the working class. (Presumably because this defies the world view of the mostly upper middle class people who work for them) Most of the time underestimating the losses to traditional centre-left parties to anti-immigration parties. This time an anti-establishment old-school socialist came through and they underestimated how many of Le Pens voters preferred him.

    Either way I can think of no finer way to usher in the end of the current French Republic than with a Hollow Man like Macron. Death by post-modern ennui, it’s what the whole post-war era has been leading up to for France.

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  7. I fear that by 2022, the demographics will be stacked against French nationalists. If they can’t wake up after the Bataclan, then they can’t wake up full stop. Au revoir, France.

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    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    Given that Germany seems hopeless (I mean, the only question is whether an even bigger leftwing cuck can replace Merkel or not), and the UK is not that far behind, not to speak of Sweden, it would rather seem au revoir, Europe.
    , @Andrei Martyanov

    I fear that by 2022, the demographics will be stacked against French nationalists.
     
    I would say that tactical and operational realities on the ground are already stacked against them. France simply doesn't have a pool of people who would be able to take weapons to stand their ground. I constantly refer (for comparison reasons) to Russia's events in Kondopoga and Sagra, many may not remember but real "taming" (or "conversion") of Ramzan Kadyrov happened namely then. I can only express my condolences to (real) French people and assume that Elena Chudinova's prophecy about Lefebvrists blowing the Mosque Of Notre Dame De Paris in the last act of defiance may not even come into reality.
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  8. There was a hope, one which I subscribed to, that the polls were overstating her support,

    Should be “understating” here, I think.

    “I suppose the only realistic way forwards is to focus on widening the Front National’s reach “

    But how is that to be done?
    The French commenter Lemoine suggested in one of Sailer’s comment threads that Le Pen was gravely hurt by her anti-EU and anti-Euro stance (didn’t she even state she wanted a referendum on the Euro – and would resign if she lost??? That seems like a high-risk strategy for no obvious benefit to me). Would be interesting if there are any surveys supporting that view.

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    • Replies: @for-the-record
    Le Pen's stand on the EU and the Euro must be true conviction, because it is certainly turning away a number of "middle of the road" voters who are sympathetic to the anti-globalist, French-nationalist position. A more nuanced position -- re-orienting the EU towards its original sense of a customs union without political centralization, and loosening German control over the Euro -- would certainly bring her considerably more support, without damaging her base.

    Here is a 12-second video of Macron that in a fairer campaign should be his downfall:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dlHDccvIq9o
     
    "There is no culture in France, there is a culture in France, it is diverse, it is multiple"
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  9. reiner Tor says: • Website
    @Dreadnought
    I fear that by 2022, the demographics will be stacked against French nationalists. If they can't wake up after the Bataclan, then they can't wake up full stop. Au revoir, France.

    Given that Germany seems hopeless (I mean, the only question is whether an even bigger leftwing cuck can replace Merkel or not), and the UK is not that far behind, not to speak of Sweden, it would rather seem au revoir, Europe.

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    • Replies: @German_reader
    Yeah, it's depressing, I can't understand how people can be that stupid. In a way their demise would be just evolution in action, problem just is they're taking the rest of us with them into the abyss.
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  10. @Dreadnought
    I fear that by 2022, the demographics will be stacked against French nationalists. If they can't wake up after the Bataclan, then they can't wake up full stop. Au revoir, France.

    I fear that by 2022, the demographics will be stacked against French nationalists.

    I would say that tactical and operational realities on the ground are already stacked against them. France simply doesn’t have a pool of people who would be able to take weapons to stand their ground. I constantly refer (for comparison reasons) to Russia’s events in Kondopoga and Sagra, many may not remember but real “taming” (or “conversion”) of Ramzan Kadyrov happened namely then. I can only express my condolences to (real) French people and assume that Elena Chudinova’s prophecy about Lefebvrists blowing the Mosque Of Notre Dame De Paris in the last act of defiance may not even come into reality.

    Read More
    • Replies: @ussr andy

    France simply doesn’t have a pool of people who would be able to take weapons to stand their ground
     
    they all have day jobs, families, mortgages, in short, too much to lose. There are people for whom being out of work is a huge deal and those for whom a stint in prison is no big disruption to their life (incl. social life.) Naturally, the second type are at an advantage when the state defaults on its duty to protect citizens.

    I constantly refer (for comparison reasons) to Russia’s events in Kondopoga and Sagra,

     

    Kondopoga is a monotown ("a city/town whose economy is dominated by a single industry or company") and a problem region though. The thing there was desperate and non-systemic (politically helpless) as far as these things go.

    I don't know where I'm going with this. Must it get much worse till it gets better?

    , @Dan Hayes
    Andrei Martyanov,

    Elena Chudinova's "The Mosque of Notre Dame De Paris" is a very riveting dystopian work although I'm afraid it hasn't got the attention is deserves.
    , @AP

    I constantly refer (for comparison reasons) to Russia’s events in Kondopoga and Sagra, many may not remember but real “taming” (or “conversion”) of Ramzan Kadyrov happened namely then.
     
    These incidents likely reflect state helplessness as much as they do Russian vitality. Chechens have a reputation of being able to do things to Russians with impunity, so desperate ethnic Russians took things in their own hands because the state refused to help them, the police would let them go.

    In contrast, the state does go after such people in most Western countries. Who fills up western prisons? So there is little need of vigilantism.
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  11. @reiner Tor
    Given that Germany seems hopeless (I mean, the only question is whether an even bigger leftwing cuck can replace Merkel or not), and the UK is not that far behind, not to speak of Sweden, it would rather seem au revoir, Europe.

    Yeah, it’s depressing, I can’t understand how people can be that stupid. In a way their demise would be just evolution in action, problem just is they’re taking the rest of us with them into the abyss.

    Read More
    • Agree: reiner Tor
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  12. anon says: • Disclaimer

    40% voting for Le Pen would be huge

    Macron looks unstable to me – reasonable chance he’ll implode

    Read More
    • Replies: @derrick_s
    anon said "...Macron looks unstable to me..." Indeed, he screws up his face and screams in an unseemly, and unmanly manner. I'm hoping he may pee himself live on TV at a large rally in front of his Mum, Brigitte. This might stop the Parisian sophisticates voting for him.

    Seriously though, looking at the very real death wish that we can see in action in UK and French white populations I am rapidly coming to the conclusion that (white) people who want to preserve their race need to move NOW. There are still large numbers of whites who could just about afford to voluntarily relocate to a place which we could in time take over and run, the European ethnostate. Some nationalists have already identified Hungary as the place where we would be most likely to thrive. If people don't start to move NOW I really think it may be too late.
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  13. @German_reader

    There was a hope, one which I subscribed to, that the polls were overstating her support,
     
    Should be "understating" here, I think.

    "I suppose the only realistic way forwards is to focus on widening the Front National’s reach "
     
    But how is that to be done?
    The French commenter Lemoine suggested in one of Sailer's comment threads that Le Pen was gravely hurt by her anti-EU and anti-Euro stance (didn't she even state she wanted a referendum on the Euro - and would resign if she lost??? That seems like a high-risk strategy for no obvious benefit to me). Would be interesting if there are any surveys supporting that view.

    Le Pen’s stand on the EU and the Euro must be true conviction, because it is certainly turning away a number of “middle of the road” voters who are sympathetic to the anti-globalist, French-nationalist position. A more nuanced position — re-orienting the EU towards its original sense of a customs union without political centralization, and loosening German control over the Euro — would certainly bring her considerably more support, without damaging her base.

    Here is a 12-second video of Macron that in a fairer campaign should be his downfall:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dlHDccvIq9o

    “There is no culture in France, there is a culture in France, it is diverse, it is multiple”

    Read More
    • Replies: @German_reader
    He's also in favour of discrimination positive (which I suppose means something like affirmative action in the US) and wants to make naturalization easier. Truly dreadful.
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  14. Btw news from Austria:

    http://diepresse.com/home/innenpolitik/5207179/Wir-werden-alle-Frauen-bitten-muessen-ein-Kopftuch-zu-tragen-aus?xtor=CS1-15-[Economistn

    President van der Bellen has stated in an interview that Islamophobia is rampant in Austria…and that the day might come when ALL women would have to be asked to wear a headscarf, out of solidarity with Muslim women doing so for religious reasons.
    Remember, Van der Bellen was sold during the election as a nice bourgeois moderate (whereas Norbert Hofer supposedly was some kind of Hitler reincarnation).
    If people don’t get it by now, will they ever understand?

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    • Replies: @Andrei Martyanov

    If people don’t get it by now, will they ever understand?
     
    No. Inertia and wishful thinking that things will somehow work out is huge in any society. I remember people still trying to live their normal lives (even partying) when there was shooting outside, the city was split in special zones, block posts everywhere--it is human nature. Now multiply this nature by coefficient from 1 through 10-15 for Europeans and there you go.
    , @Hector_St_Clare
    German Reader,

    This sounds utterly horrible. I was so miserable when Hofer lost the second election and by a reasonable margin (the polls had placed him ahead, and he probably legitimately won the first time).

    Europe is going to have to purge itself of islam some day if it wants to save itself. Or at the very least, individual countries are going to have to purge themselves, either as a whole or via some kind of partition. (For that matter, Russia really ought to partition off the North Caucasus). The longer they wait, the bloodier it's going to be.

    Van der Bellen does sound like a slimy, sleazy little freak. I hope that most Austrian women laugh him off if he ever asks them to wear a headscarf, and respond by removing him at the next election, if not sooner. Allow the headscarf and sooner or later it will become semi-compulsory. My fear is that a lot of them would actually think it's a good idea. For a certain sort of american SJW, it's always Selma in 1963, and I think a lot of Europeans probably interpret all history through the lens of the Holocaust.

    The only hope I have here is this: Europe has been saved by foreign invasions before. Everything seemed lost when the Moors had advanced to the middle of France, when the Turks were besieging Vienna, and when the Mongols were on the Hungarian frontier. Europe outlasted its enemies then- I'd credit that to some kind of divine intervention myself, but maybe you don't- and my hope is that she will do so again.

    And also, let's put this in context. The FPO went from a fringe party to nearly winning an election. We are making progress. Last year wasn't the year, but by 2022, who knows what would happen? Same with the National Front. The loathsome Van der Bellen is right about one thing: "Islamophobia" (which I'd call, rational and healthy suspicion of Islam) is on the rise in Austria from an already reasonably high level, and most Austrian Muslims, as I've pointed out in the past, say that Islamophobia is intense enough that they would leave if financially compensated. Austria may yet solve its problems through peaceful measures.
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  15. @for-the-record
    Le Pen's stand on the EU and the Euro must be true conviction, because it is certainly turning away a number of "middle of the road" voters who are sympathetic to the anti-globalist, French-nationalist position. A more nuanced position -- re-orienting the EU towards its original sense of a customs union without political centralization, and loosening German control over the Euro -- would certainly bring her considerably more support, without damaging her base.

    Here is a 12-second video of Macron that in a fairer campaign should be his downfall:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dlHDccvIq9o
     
    "There is no culture in France, there is a culture in France, it is diverse, it is multiple"

    He’s also in favour of discrimination positive (which I suppose means something like affirmative action in the US) and wants to make naturalization easier. Truly dreadful.

    Read More
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  16. Thanks for the h/t. If anyone is interested, I wrote another blog post in English about this, in which I say very similar things. The National Front won’t be able to win until it softens its leftist stance on the economy. Of course, it shouldn’t adopt a laissez-faire platform, but it’s currently too far to the left on the economy, which makes it difficult to gain support among right-wing voters, which is where its real potential is. In particular, it should stop saying that it wants France to leave the euro, which turns off a lot of people.

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    • Replies: @German_reader
    Very interesting, thank you. So that seems to confirm that FN has major problems among people with university education and/or higher income. Hard to see how this can be overcome unless the general intellectual climate becomes more favorable towards nationalism.
    , @anon
    You sound like a French version of GOPe.

    FN don't need to soften on the economy because neoliberal economics doesn't work - for obvious reasons - so the economy will continue to degrade.
    , @Greasy William
    Excellent analysis, thank you.

    But we are being too hard on ourselves here: Unlike Brexit or Trump FN never had a chance to actually win. The key is to double her old man's result from 15 years ago. 15 years from now, her niece can win.
    , @anon
    https://www.ft.com/content/935a7d98-12e2-11e7-80f4-13e067d5072c

    I think she will find a way beyond this roadblock.

    Instead of being about leaving the EU/Euro .... I think she needs to come up with a French idiom for 'building the wall' and make it about borders. And argue the willingness to leave the EU/Euro if this core demand can't be met within the EU/Euro.

    Or something like that.

    Frankly, I don't get why the elite is so enamored with this obviously unpopular idea. Their intelligent response to nationalism would be to start enforcing current rules without announcing it. With some minor changes.
    , @anonn
    Would she even have gotten to the second round without populist (or "far left") economics? If she had come out and said, you know, maybe we need to increase the work week, fire a bunch of workers, and cut taxes for the wealthy, her coalition would have been hamstrung from the start. The numbers I saw showed that at least around a tenth of her voters classified themselves as far left. Without populist economics, the second round would have been Melenchon v. the banker parasite. Melenchon, not Le Pen, would get the boost that she's going to get after the entire apparatus of the state and capital gang up to deny her.

    The future in France, as in the US, is a coalition of the right and the left against the elites.
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  17. @German_reader
    Btw news from Austria:
    http://diepresse.com/home/innenpolitik/5207179/Wir-werden-alle-Frauen-bitten-muessen-ein-Kopftuch-zu-tragen-aus?xtor=CS1-15-[Economistn

    President van der Bellen has stated in an interview that Islamophobia is rampant in Austria...and that the day might come when ALL women would have to be asked to wear a headscarf, out of solidarity with Muslim women doing so for religious reasons.
    Remember, Van der Bellen was sold during the election as a nice bourgeois moderate (whereas Norbert Hofer supposedly was some kind of Hitler reincarnation).
    If people don't get it by now, will they ever understand?

    If people don’t get it by now, will they ever understand?

    No. Inertia and wishful thinking that things will somehow work out is huge in any society. I remember people still trying to live their normal lives (even partying) when there was shooting outside, the city was split in special zones, block posts everywhere–it is human nature. Now multiply this nature by coefficient from 1 through 10-15 for Europeans and there you go.

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    • Replies: @German_reader
    You're referring to your experiences in Central Asia (or the Caucasus?) after the dissolution of the Soviet Union?
    Not encouraging, if anything the population in Western Europe is much softer nowadays than people in the Soviet Union ever were (and I don't say this doesn't include me, I'm just aware of the fact)...the capability for collective action is very low.
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  18. @Philippe Lemoine
    Thanks for the h/t. If anyone is interested, I wrote another blog post in English about this, in which I say very similar things. The National Front won't be able to win until it softens its leftist stance on the economy. Of course, it shouldn't adopt a laissez-faire platform, but it's currently too far to the left on the economy, which makes it difficult to gain support among right-wing voters, which is where its real potential is. In particular, it should stop saying that it wants France to leave the euro, which turns off a lot of people.

    Very interesting, thank you. So that seems to confirm that FN has major problems among people with university education and/or higher income. Hard to see how this can be overcome unless the general intellectual climate becomes more favorable towards nationalism.

    Read More
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  19. @Andrei Martyanov

    If people don’t get it by now, will they ever understand?
     
    No. Inertia and wishful thinking that things will somehow work out is huge in any society. I remember people still trying to live their normal lives (even partying) when there was shooting outside, the city was split in special zones, block posts everywhere--it is human nature. Now multiply this nature by coefficient from 1 through 10-15 for Europeans and there you go.

    You’re referring to your experiences in Central Asia (or the Caucasus?) after the dissolution of the Soviet Union?
    Not encouraging, if anything the population in Western Europe is much softer nowadays than people in the Soviet Union ever were (and I don’t say this doesn’t include me, I’m just aware of the fact)…the capability for collective action is very low.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Andrei Martyanov
    Yes, Caucasus. But you confirmed my point--Europeans are simply not even in the same universe when it comes to comparison with Soviet people. Do not forget that even today Russian Armed Forces retain a significant portion of ground troops staffed with enlisted personnel who really gets the real school of life. Actually, observing today a truly stunning reversal in attitudes towards serving in armed forces among young people I literally have to pinch myself. The inverse corruption has started, if in the past (say in 2000s) people would pay to military commissars to not enlist their kids, an opposite today is true--there were cases when young people offered bribes to get enlisted in units such as paratroopers or border guards. A truly stunning reversal. It is also a very healthy sign.
    , @reiner Tor
    I'm still reading Frank Dikötter's trilogy on Mao's China, the Great Leap Forward is perhaps the most frightening part.

    The dictator declared that China will reach the industrial production of the UK (then still considered a major industrial power) in 15 years. With sycophants the required time is soon reduced to perhaps a few years. Mao wants to avoid the famine of Stalin, so decides to triple agricultural production, too. (A mere doubling wouldn't be ambitious enough, I guess.)

    Now, the whole country is made into a huge forced labor camp. The people are made to work on huge irrigation projects: many die. (The projects would later turn out to be totally useless.) To increase agricultural production, new methods are devised: close cropping (the farmers know it's going to be harmful, but nobody dares say a word), fertilizer use (they demolish mud huts for fertilizer, the people are forced out of their homes), nobody thinks about how the harvest will turn out a year later when they run out of mud huts... (The harvest would turn out disastrous already in the first year, the new methods are actually harmful, the people forced to work on irrigation projects work less on the fields, a lot of land is left to fallow.)

    They start increasing the magical number of steel production in rural village furnaces by melting all available agricultural tools (and some buildings are demolished or at least rid of their doors or windows for the metal parts found there), the steel produced is (predictably) so poor quality that it's useless, scrap.

    The foreign currency is used to import industrial equipment in very large quantities: the country goes bankrupt (within two years they cannot pay for their obligations), but the imported equipment is poorly handled, often is left on construction sites to rust in the rain.

    After a year famine starts, while the country is already experiencing difficulties paying for its imports. The top leaders sit together at a conference to discuss how to divide the record harvest and what to do with the record steel production (neither of which went through the formality of actually existing). They are congratulating each other on the record harvests and the record industrial production. (Everybody was reporting bogus inflated numbers to get approval.) Then the unexpected happens: a high ranking official, the defense minister tells the others that the emperor has no clothes: there is famine, industrial production is actually dropping, housing stock etc. are getting destroyed, it's all madness.

    The defense minister is quickly demoted, forced to apologize, and then the leadership doubles down on the Great Leap Forward. Two years later the economy's collapse reached such dimensions that the leadership is forced to readjust. They blame natural disasters. (There were some, caused by the already mentioned irrigation projects...) By that time, approximately 40% of the housing stock is destroyed, perhaps 5-10% of the population dies of famine (or of being worked to death, being killed, etc.), countless agricultural tools etc. are destroyed. In the end it shakes even Mao's personal power.

    All this on a project that anybody with half a brain could have seen could only end in disaster.

    I'm betting on our elites continuing to congratulate themselves on the wonderful results of multiculturalism until the very end.
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  20. The author is aligned on the Media which were very successful in having Macron winning the first round. Fillon and Juppe calling to vote for Macron on May 7 has been a shock to many people. It shows the collusion between what used to be the right and the left, both acting as surrogates of the New World Order. In doing so they commited suicide.
    A new left is borned with Melanchon and Marine Le Pen. The first one represents the Free-mason left: this elite which pretends to have the knowledge to lead the people which is not supposed to be adult. They consider the people as the Jews see the Goyim: talking animals. For them all the people are equal as they are “untermensch”.
    Marine Le Pen is working for the French people and she sees her as one of them. She is not part of an elite above the people. She wants to give them back some pride in participating in the development of the country. She wants to get rid of the international finance yoke.
    I still hope that she will win on May 7, for Macron’s Victory will means the Triumph of the corrupt media and the dirty international money over what makes the difference between the Humanity and the animals: the lack of a soul.

    Read More
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  21. @German_reader
    You're referring to your experiences in Central Asia (or the Caucasus?) after the dissolution of the Soviet Union?
    Not encouraging, if anything the population in Western Europe is much softer nowadays than people in the Soviet Union ever were (and I don't say this doesn't include me, I'm just aware of the fact)...the capability for collective action is very low.

    Yes, Caucasus. But you confirmed my point–Europeans are simply not even in the same universe when it comes to comparison with Soviet people. Do not forget that even today Russian Armed Forces retain a significant portion of ground troops staffed with enlisted personnel who really gets the real school of life. Actually, observing today a truly stunning reversal in attitudes towards serving in armed forces among young people I literally have to pinch myself. The inverse corruption has started, if in the past (say in 2000s) people would pay to military commissars to not enlist their kids, an opposite today is true–there were cases when young people offered bribes to get enlisted in units such as paratroopers or border guards. A truly stunning reversal. It is also a very healthy sign.

    Read More
    • Replies: @German_reader
    If I understand correctly Russia has also reintroduced some sort of paramilitary training in the school system. Now I'm very much a civilian myself and not into flag-waving patriotism, but I have to admit in some ways this is probably quite a good idea...certainly far preferable to the absolute helplessness among most of the population in Western Europe.
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  22. @Andrei Martyanov
    Yes, Caucasus. But you confirmed my point--Europeans are simply not even in the same universe when it comes to comparison with Soviet people. Do not forget that even today Russian Armed Forces retain a significant portion of ground troops staffed with enlisted personnel who really gets the real school of life. Actually, observing today a truly stunning reversal in attitudes towards serving in armed forces among young people I literally have to pinch myself. The inverse corruption has started, if in the past (say in 2000s) people would pay to military commissars to not enlist their kids, an opposite today is true--there were cases when young people offered bribes to get enlisted in units such as paratroopers or border guards. A truly stunning reversal. It is also a very healthy sign.

    If I understand correctly Russia has also reintroduced some sort of paramilitary training in the school system. Now I’m very much a civilian myself and not into flag-waving patriotism, but I have to admit in some ways this is probably quite a good idea…certainly far preferable to the absolute helplessness among most of the population in Western Europe.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anon
    Yes, of course, it's a very good idea. Don't you have scouting and that general sort of thing in Germany?
    , @Andrei Martyanov

    If I understand correctly Russia has also reintroduced some sort of paramilitary training in the school system
     
    Yes. It used to be called NVP (Nachalnaya Voennaya Podgotovka--Initial (Introductory) Military Training). Many schools (students of 9-10th grades) used to field trip to nearest military ranges and shoot AKMs, live munitions, learned basic tactics on squad and platoon levels etc. Girls also had their basic field medicine training. Today it is called something else, but pretty much same vector--boys must know what real weapon is, they must be able to handle AK-74s or AK-100, know how to throw RGD-5 etc. Reintroduction of Yanarmia (Youth Army) is also a great idea. Military games for younger students are also back (it used to be called Zarnitsa), I am not sure how they are called today. But the idea is very simple behind all that--a man goes to battlefield to fight for his woman, who, in her turn, needs to know how to treat her wounded man. So not PC and not-tolerant.
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  23. Aly says:

    Only Fillon had a chance against Macron. He would be ok, but unfortunately he came third. It would be better if Le Pen voters voted for Fillon. Also FN shoud try to keep the voters for parlamentary elections, and maybe make inroads into Assembly, but where they have no chance they should support Republicans. Also they should reconsider their hate of euro and the EU. Instead of fighting against the euro and scaring people with that talk, they should focus all energy on immigration, that’s the real problem.

    Read More
    • Replies: @anon

    Also they should reconsider their hate of euro and the EU. Instead of fighting against the euro and scaring people with that talk, they should focus all energy on immigration, that’s the real problem.
     
    The EU wants mass immigration to undermine national identities.

    The FN needs to link the two issues - the EU wants open borders for divide an rule.
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  24. Anon says: • Disclaimer
    @German_reader
    If I understand correctly Russia has also reintroduced some sort of paramilitary training in the school system. Now I'm very much a civilian myself and not into flag-waving patriotism, but I have to admit in some ways this is probably quite a good idea...certainly far preferable to the absolute helplessness among most of the population in Western Europe.

    Yes, of course, it’s a very good idea. Don’t you have scouting and that general sort of thing in Germany?

    Read More
    • Replies: @German_reader
    No, I don't think scouting is really a thing in Germany. And paramilitary education in the school system wouldn't have a chance of being introduced given Germany's general mental state (I think the GDR did have it though, but then they were more "German" than West Germany anyway). Probably better anyway, given how "diverse" Germany's young are, it might turn out to be just weapons training for future Islamists.
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  25. @German_reader
    If I understand correctly Russia has also reintroduced some sort of paramilitary training in the school system. Now I'm very much a civilian myself and not into flag-waving patriotism, but I have to admit in some ways this is probably quite a good idea...certainly far preferable to the absolute helplessness among most of the population in Western Europe.

    If I understand correctly Russia has also reintroduced some sort of paramilitary training in the school system

    Yes. It used to be called NVP (Nachalnaya Voennaya Podgotovka–Initial (Introductory) Military Training). Many schools (students of 9-10th grades) used to field trip to nearest military ranges and shoot AKMs, live munitions, learned basic tactics on squad and platoon levels etc. Girls also had their basic field medicine training. Today it is called something else, but pretty much same vector–boys must know what real weapon is, they must be able to handle AK-74s or AK-100, know how to throw RGD-5 etc. Reintroduction of Yanarmia (Youth Army) is also a great idea. Military games for younger students are also back (it used to be called Zarnitsa), I am not sure how they are called today. But the idea is very simple behind all that–a man goes to battlefield to fight for his woman, who, in her turn, needs to know how to treat her wounded man. So not PC and not-tolerant.

    Read More
    • Agree: Sergey Krieger
    • Replies: @German_reader
    Interesting, thanks for the answer.
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  26. reiner Tor says: • Website
    @German_reader
    You're referring to your experiences in Central Asia (or the Caucasus?) after the dissolution of the Soviet Union?
    Not encouraging, if anything the population in Western Europe is much softer nowadays than people in the Soviet Union ever were (and I don't say this doesn't include me, I'm just aware of the fact)...the capability for collective action is very low.

    I’m still reading Frank Dikötter’s trilogy on Mao’s China, the Great Leap Forward is perhaps the most frightening part.

    The dictator declared that China will reach the industrial production of the UK (then still considered a major industrial power) in 15 years. With sycophants the required time is soon reduced to perhaps a few years. Mao wants to avoid the famine of Stalin, so decides to triple agricultural production, too. (A mere doubling wouldn’t be ambitious enough, I guess.)

    Now, the whole country is made into a huge forced labor camp. The people are made to work on huge irrigation projects: many die. (The projects would later turn out to be totally useless.) To increase agricultural production, new methods are devised: close cropping (the farmers know it’s going to be harmful, but nobody dares say a word), fertilizer use (they demolish mud huts for fertilizer, the people are forced out of their homes), nobody thinks about how the harvest will turn out a year later when they run out of mud huts… (The harvest would turn out disastrous already in the first year, the new methods are actually harmful, the people forced to work on irrigation projects work less on the fields, a lot of land is left to fallow.)

    They start increasing the magical number of steel production in rural village furnaces by melting all available agricultural tools (and some buildings are demolished or at least rid of their doors or windows for the metal parts found there), the steel produced is (predictably) so poor quality that it’s useless, scrap.

    The foreign currency is used to import industrial equipment in very large quantities: the country goes bankrupt (within two years they cannot pay for their obligations), but the imported equipment is poorly handled, often is left on construction sites to rust in the rain.

    After a year famine starts, while the country is already experiencing difficulties paying for its imports. The top leaders sit together at a conference to discuss how to divide the record harvest and what to do with the record steel production (neither of which went through the formality of actually existing). They are congratulating each other on the record harvests and the record industrial production. (Everybody was reporting bogus inflated numbers to get approval.) Then the unexpected happens: a high ranking official, the defense minister tells the others that the emperor has no clothes: there is famine, industrial production is actually dropping, housing stock etc. are getting destroyed, it’s all madness.

    The defense minister is quickly demoted, forced to apologize, and then the leadership doubles down on the Great Leap Forward. Two years later the economy’s collapse reached such dimensions that the leadership is forced to readjust. They blame natural disasters. (There were some, caused by the already mentioned irrigation projects…) By that time, approximately 40% of the housing stock is destroyed, perhaps 5-10% of the population dies of famine (or of being worked to death, being killed, etc.), countless agricultural tools etc. are destroyed. In the end it shakes even Mao’s personal power.

    All this on a project that anybody with half a brain could have seen could only end in disaster.

    I’m betting on our elites continuing to congratulate themselves on the wonderful results of multiculturalism until the very end.

    Read More
    • Replies: @German_reader

    "I’m betting on our elites continuing to congratulate themselves on the wonderful results of multiculturalism until the very end."
     
    That's not surprising though, after all they and their predecessors are responsible for the disastrous policies that led to the present situation. I just don't get though how many supposedly educated people can't see that this will in all likelihood end pretty badly. Karlin has written in the past - and commenter Philippe Lemoine has confirmed it - that FN does pretty badly among university-educated people, and I guess the same is true for most even vaguely nationalist parties in Europe. I really don't understand that given events of the last 15 years or so.
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  27. @Anon
    Yes, of course, it's a very good idea. Don't you have scouting and that general sort of thing in Germany?

    No, I don’t think scouting is really a thing in Germany. And paramilitary education in the school system wouldn’t have a chance of being introduced given Germany’s general mental state (I think the GDR did have it though, but then they were more “German” than West Germany anyway). Probably better anyway, given how “diverse” Germany’s young are, it might turn out to be just weapons training for future Islamists.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Glossy
    "I think the GDR did have it though, but then they were more “German” than West Germany anyway)."

    I'm curious, in what ways was DDR more German? It doesn't surprise me that it was, but I don't know the details. Of course I know that there were no immigrants, but there must have been more to it.
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  28. @reiner Tor
    I'm still reading Frank Dikötter's trilogy on Mao's China, the Great Leap Forward is perhaps the most frightening part.

    The dictator declared that China will reach the industrial production of the UK (then still considered a major industrial power) in 15 years. With sycophants the required time is soon reduced to perhaps a few years. Mao wants to avoid the famine of Stalin, so decides to triple agricultural production, too. (A mere doubling wouldn't be ambitious enough, I guess.)

    Now, the whole country is made into a huge forced labor camp. The people are made to work on huge irrigation projects: many die. (The projects would later turn out to be totally useless.) To increase agricultural production, new methods are devised: close cropping (the farmers know it's going to be harmful, but nobody dares say a word), fertilizer use (they demolish mud huts for fertilizer, the people are forced out of their homes), nobody thinks about how the harvest will turn out a year later when they run out of mud huts... (The harvest would turn out disastrous already in the first year, the new methods are actually harmful, the people forced to work on irrigation projects work less on the fields, a lot of land is left to fallow.)

    They start increasing the magical number of steel production in rural village furnaces by melting all available agricultural tools (and some buildings are demolished or at least rid of their doors or windows for the metal parts found there), the steel produced is (predictably) so poor quality that it's useless, scrap.

    The foreign currency is used to import industrial equipment in very large quantities: the country goes bankrupt (within two years they cannot pay for their obligations), but the imported equipment is poorly handled, often is left on construction sites to rust in the rain.

    After a year famine starts, while the country is already experiencing difficulties paying for its imports. The top leaders sit together at a conference to discuss how to divide the record harvest and what to do with the record steel production (neither of which went through the formality of actually existing). They are congratulating each other on the record harvests and the record industrial production. (Everybody was reporting bogus inflated numbers to get approval.) Then the unexpected happens: a high ranking official, the defense minister tells the others that the emperor has no clothes: there is famine, industrial production is actually dropping, housing stock etc. are getting destroyed, it's all madness.

    The defense minister is quickly demoted, forced to apologize, and then the leadership doubles down on the Great Leap Forward. Two years later the economy's collapse reached such dimensions that the leadership is forced to readjust. They blame natural disasters. (There were some, caused by the already mentioned irrigation projects...) By that time, approximately 40% of the housing stock is destroyed, perhaps 5-10% of the population dies of famine (or of being worked to death, being killed, etc.), countless agricultural tools etc. are destroyed. In the end it shakes even Mao's personal power.

    All this on a project that anybody with half a brain could have seen could only end in disaster.

    I'm betting on our elites continuing to congratulate themselves on the wonderful results of multiculturalism until the very end.

    “I’m betting on our elites continuing to congratulate themselves on the wonderful results of multiculturalism until the very end.”

    That’s not surprising though, after all they and their predecessors are responsible for the disastrous policies that led to the present situation. I just don’t get though how many supposedly educated people can’t see that this will in all likelihood end pretty badly. Karlin has written in the past – and commenter Philippe Lemoine has confirmed it – that FN does pretty badly among university-educated people, and I guess the same is true for most even vaguely nationalist parties in Europe. I really don’t understand that given events of the last 15 years or so.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
    (1) University educated people live with other university educated people - other whites, as well as the cream of the immigrant crop.

    This trend is actually intensifying due to the increasing cognitive stratification that Charles Murray has written about.

    (2) Sailer has also written a lot on the class war element of pro-immigration/minority virtue signalling.
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  29. @Andrei Martyanov

    If I understand correctly Russia has also reintroduced some sort of paramilitary training in the school system
     
    Yes. It used to be called NVP (Nachalnaya Voennaya Podgotovka--Initial (Introductory) Military Training). Many schools (students of 9-10th grades) used to field trip to nearest military ranges and shoot AKMs, live munitions, learned basic tactics on squad and platoon levels etc. Girls also had their basic field medicine training. Today it is called something else, but pretty much same vector--boys must know what real weapon is, they must be able to handle AK-74s or AK-100, know how to throw RGD-5 etc. Reintroduction of Yanarmia (Youth Army) is also a great idea. Military games for younger students are also back (it used to be called Zarnitsa), I am not sure how they are called today. But the idea is very simple behind all that--a man goes to battlefield to fight for his woman, who, in her turn, needs to know how to treat her wounded man. So not PC and not-tolerant.

    Interesting, thanks for the answer.

    Read More
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  30. Glossy says: • Website
    @German_reader
    No, I don't think scouting is really a thing in Germany. And paramilitary education in the school system wouldn't have a chance of being introduced given Germany's general mental state (I think the GDR did have it though, but then they were more "German" than West Germany anyway). Probably better anyway, given how "diverse" Germany's young are, it might turn out to be just weapons training for future Islamists.

    “I think the GDR did have it though, but then they were more “German” than West Germany anyway).”

    I’m curious, in what ways was DDR more German? It doesn’t surprise me that it was, but I don’t know the details. Of course I know that there were no immigrants, but there must have been more to it.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Glossy
    There must have been fewer Hollywood movies and less American music, so more of the entertainment would have been German.

    All Soviet people of my generation remember an insanely entertaining East German TV show for kids. It was a team competition with a big race at the end of each episode.
    , @German_reader
    I'd say it arguably was more German in its general character, both for good and ill...of course it was pretty authoritarian and preserved the traditional Untertanengeist (but then West Germans are pretty spineless too, they just don't know it). But curiously it seems to have preserved more of a sense of German nationhood than the west. You could see this in details like GDR military uniforms which were recognizably in line with German military traditions whereas West German forces adopted really crappy-looking American-style uniforms (and East German propagandists were aware of that fact and made use of it). I don't really fully understand the details myself (I'm not from East Germany, so my insight is limited)...of course there was a lot of official "antifascism" in the East as well (and someone like Merkel may be seen as a product of that), but on the whole it seems to have led to rather different results than in the West.
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  31. Glossy says: • Website
    @Glossy
    "I think the GDR did have it though, but then they were more “German” than West Germany anyway)."

    I'm curious, in what ways was DDR more German? It doesn't surprise me that it was, but I don't know the details. Of course I know that there were no immigrants, but there must have been more to it.

    There must have been fewer Hollywood movies and less American music, so more of the entertainment would have been German.

    All Soviet people of my generation remember an insanely entertaining East German TV show for kids. It was a team competition with a big race at the end of each episode.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Andrei Martyanov

    All Soviet people of my generation remember an insanely entertaining East German TV show for kids. It was a team competition with a big race at the end of each episode.
     
    Excellent show: Do as we do, Do with us, Do better than us (Mach mit, machs nach, machs besser...)

    https://youtu.be/UlBNz4QYpZ0

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  32. @Glossy
    "I think the GDR did have it though, but then they were more “German” than West Germany anyway)."

    I'm curious, in what ways was DDR more German? It doesn't surprise me that it was, but I don't know the details. Of course I know that there were no immigrants, but there must have been more to it.

    I’d say it arguably was more German in its general character, both for good and ill…of course it was pretty authoritarian and preserved the traditional Untertanengeist (but then West Germans are pretty spineless too, they just don’t know it). But curiously it seems to have preserved more of a sense of German nationhood than the west. You could see this in details like GDR military uniforms which were recognizably in line with German military traditions whereas West German forces adopted really crappy-looking American-style uniforms (and East German propagandists were aware of that fact and made use of it). I don’t really fully understand the details myself (I’m not from East Germany, so my insight is limited)…of course there was a lot of official “antifascism” in the East as well (and someone like Merkel may be seen as a product of that), but on the whole it seems to have led to rather different results than in the West.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anon

    But curiously it seems to have preserved more of a sense of German nationhood than the west.
     
    It is quite telling that the first leader of the FRG/BRD was not a German patriot (Kurt Schumacher), but a Rhenish separatist who wanted that the Saarland does not rejoin Germany (Konrad Adenauer).
    , @Glossy
    Thank you. That was interesting.
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  33. Anon says: • Disclaimer

    I’m curious, in what ways was DDR more German?

    It was the German Democratic Republic, not the Federal Republic of Germany.
    There was not just a population in Germany*, the population was German.

    *According to Merkel, her people are everyone who lives in Germany which is unconstitutional.

    Read More
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  34. @Glossy
    There must have been fewer Hollywood movies and less American music, so more of the entertainment would have been German.

    All Soviet people of my generation remember an insanely entertaining East German TV show for kids. It was a team competition with a big race at the end of each episode.

    All Soviet people of my generation remember an insanely entertaining East German TV show for kids. It was a team competition with a big race at the end of each episode.

    Excellent show: Do as we do, Do with us, Do better than us (Mach mit, machs nach, machs besser…)

    Read More
    • Replies: @Andrei Martyanov
    Del
    , @Glossy
    It's really hard to overstate how much fun that show was.

    Other East German stuff that we saw: toy train sets. Very well done. I had an incredible East German constuctor set. Lots of gleaming steel planks of every shape that you put together with screws.

    Whenever I hear people say that East German-made stuff was of low quality, I attribute it to Western propaganda. The stuff *I* saw was top-notch.
    , @Sergey Krieger
    Yes,yes,yes. I watched it regularly too.
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  35. Anon says: • Disclaimer
    @German_reader
    I'd say it arguably was more German in its general character, both for good and ill...of course it was pretty authoritarian and preserved the traditional Untertanengeist (but then West Germans are pretty spineless too, they just don't know it). But curiously it seems to have preserved more of a sense of German nationhood than the west. You could see this in details like GDR military uniforms which were recognizably in line with German military traditions whereas West German forces adopted really crappy-looking American-style uniforms (and East German propagandists were aware of that fact and made use of it). I don't really fully understand the details myself (I'm not from East Germany, so my insight is limited)...of course there was a lot of official "antifascism" in the East as well (and someone like Merkel may be seen as a product of that), but on the whole it seems to have led to rather different results than in the West.

    But curiously it seems to have preserved more of a sense of German nationhood than the west.

    It is quite telling that the first leader of the FRG/BRD was not a German patriot (Kurt Schumacher), but a Rhenish separatist who wanted that the Saarland does not rejoin Germany (Konrad Adenauer).

    Read More
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  36. Glossy says: • Website
    @German_reader
    I'd say it arguably was more German in its general character, both for good and ill...of course it was pretty authoritarian and preserved the traditional Untertanengeist (but then West Germans are pretty spineless too, they just don't know it). But curiously it seems to have preserved more of a sense of German nationhood than the west. You could see this in details like GDR military uniforms which were recognizably in line with German military traditions whereas West German forces adopted really crappy-looking American-style uniforms (and East German propagandists were aware of that fact and made use of it). I don't really fully understand the details myself (I'm not from East Germany, so my insight is limited)...of course there was a lot of official "antifascism" in the East as well (and someone like Merkel may be seen as a product of that), but on the whole it seems to have led to rather different results than in the West.

    Thank you. That was interesting.

    Read More
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  37. @Andrei Martyanov

    All Soviet people of my generation remember an insanely entertaining East German TV show for kids. It was a team competition with a big race at the end of each episode.
     
    Excellent show: Do as we do, Do with us, Do better than us (Mach mit, machs nach, machs besser...)

    https://youtu.be/UlBNz4QYpZ0

    Del

    Read More
    • Replies: @Glossy
    This happens to me when I edit a comment after I post it. Seems to be a feature of Unz software. The comments reappear after a few minutes.
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  38. Glossy says: • Website
    @Andrei Martyanov
    Del

    This happens to me when I edit a comment after I post it. Seems to be a feature of Unz software. The comments reappear after a few minutes.

    Read More
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  39. Randal says:

    A Le Pen win was always known to be a fantastically long shot (my understanding, though not base upon any inside knowledge, was that the FN long term planning aimed at having their best shot at a Marine presidency in 2022). The knowledge that even getting through to the second round is no use when both sides then gang up on you is nothing new.

    The excitement over the possibility this time was always largely based upon overblown comparisons to Brexit and Trump, which were always questionable.

    That said, I think this piece is unduly negative. There is still an outside chance of a Le Pen win this time, though certainly not based upon the current electoral arithmetic. The chance is based upon the fact that there is a fortnight to campaign in, and Macron is anything but a solid and proven candidate. If MLP and the FN can successfully campaign against him as an insider, then the electoral arithmetic could chance very substantially, especially if he blunders in his response (which is entirely possible).

    Voters, whatever they say now, must be much more up for grabs in this campaign than they ever would be in an ordinary campaign between established parties and politicians.

    Regardless, the fact remains that even if MLP loses as expected, this election has already demonstrated another example of the general climb in support for parties of national survival and the likelihood is that gain will be reinforced by the second round vote. It’s another battle in the war, not the final decision on anything.

    Read More
    • Agree: Glossy
    • Replies: @Anon
    Among the incalculables: will there be a Marine-Marion split analogous to the Marine-JM split?

    (I doubt it, but who knows?)

    You're right that Marine had no chance, essentially, ever, so there's no reason to be disappointed.

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  40. Glossy says: • Website
    @Andrei Martyanov

    All Soviet people of my generation remember an insanely entertaining East German TV show for kids. It was a team competition with a big race at the end of each episode.
     
    Excellent show: Do as we do, Do with us, Do better than us (Mach mit, machs nach, machs besser...)

    https://youtu.be/UlBNz4QYpZ0

    It’s really hard to overstate how much fun that show was.

    Other East German stuff that we saw: toy train sets. Very well done. I had an incredible East German constuctor set. Lots of gleaming steel planks of every shape that you put together with screws.

    Whenever I hear people say that East German-made stuff was of low quality, I attribute it to Western propaganda. The stuff *I* saw was top-notch.

    Read More
    • Agree: Andrei Martyanov
    • Replies: @Andrei Martyanov

    Other East German stuff that we saw: toy train sets. Very well done. I had an incredible East German constuctor set. Lots of gleaming steel planks of every shape that you put together with screws.
     
    There were excellent equivalents of LEGOs, actually, but toys aside, GDR's made X-ray and other hi-tech diagnostic medical equipment was great. All Soviet schools' annual fluorography was done on East German-made trucks stuffed with X-ray diagnostic equipment, as one example among many. Sadly, GDR is remembered for Trabants only.
    , @reiner Tor
    We had a Wartburg car. It was horrible, but very reliable. My father used to say that compared to the Dacia (a Romanian make based on a Renault model) that the Dacia was a great car produced in very bad quality, whereas the Wartburg was a shitty car produced in great quality.

    The two-stroke engines (besides the Wartburgs, a lot of Trabants also on our streets) poisoned us in our childhood. The East German engineers wanted to improve them, but the party prohibited it, because production couldn't keep pace with the demand (in the Eastern Bloc), so they just kept producing a heavily obsolete car (albeit in excellent quality).
    , @Sergey Krieger
    Regarding German train toy sets. I had two. Excellent quality. Bought my son China made. Complete garbage
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  41. Anon says: • Disclaimer
    @Randal
    A Le Pen win was always known to be a fantastically long shot (my understanding, though not base upon any inside knowledge, was that the FN long term planning aimed at having their best shot at a Marine presidency in 2022). The knowledge that even getting through to the second round is no use when both sides then gang up on you is nothing new.

    The excitement over the possibility this time was always largely based upon overblown comparisons to Brexit and Trump, which were always questionable.

    That said, I think this piece is unduly negative. There is still an outside chance of a Le Pen win this time, though certainly not based upon the current electoral arithmetic. The chance is based upon the fact that there is a fortnight to campaign in, and Macron is anything but a solid and proven candidate. If MLP and the FN can successfully campaign against him as an insider, then the electoral arithmetic could chance very substantially, especially if he blunders in his response (which is entirely possible).

    Voters, whatever they say now, must be much more up for grabs in this campaign than they ever would be in an ordinary campaign between established parties and politicians.

    Regardless, the fact remains that even if MLP loses as expected, this election has already demonstrated another example of the general climb in support for parties of national survival and the likelihood is that gain will be reinforced by the second round vote. It's another battle in the war, not the final decision on anything.

    Among the incalculables: will there be a Marine-Marion split analogous to the Marine-JM split?

    (I doubt it, but who knows?)

    You’re right that Marine had no chance, essentially, ever, so there’s no reason to be disappointed.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Randal
    Here's the kind of story that has the potential to really damage Macron, because it hits him right where it hurts - in his "Socialist" hypocrisy and artificiality:

    France election: Macron heckled by pro-Le Pen workers

    "As Emmanuel Macron was holding talks at the local chamber of commerce, the National Front leader made an unannounced visit to the picket line at the Whirlpool factory where she was greeted with enthusiasm by many of the striking workers.

    She told reporters there that Mr Macron's decision to meet union officials in the comfortable surroundings of an office - rather than come to the factory gates as she had - was a sign of someone who deep down was contemptuous of working people's lives. "

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  42. @Glossy
    It's really hard to overstate how much fun that show was.

    Other East German stuff that we saw: toy train sets. Very well done. I had an incredible East German constuctor set. Lots of gleaming steel planks of every shape that you put together with screws.

    Whenever I hear people say that East German-made stuff was of low quality, I attribute it to Western propaganda. The stuff *I* saw was top-notch.

    Other East German stuff that we saw: toy train sets. Very well done. I had an incredible East German constuctor set. Lots of gleaming steel planks of every shape that you put together with screws.

    There were excellent equivalents of LEGOs, actually, but toys aside, GDR’s made X-ray and other hi-tech diagnostic medical equipment was great. All Soviet schools’ annual fluorography was done on East German-made trucks stuffed with X-ray diagnostic equipment, as one example among many. Sadly, GDR is remembered for Trabants only.

    Read More
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  43. Bill says:
    @Glossy
    By the way, I saw a SiP article that praised Macron, a former investment banker, for taking away vacation days and the like from people who do useful work in France. He pushed through some kind of a libertardializing economic package while in government some years ago.

    It’s maddening. The guy comes right out and says “I’m going to screw you to the wall,” and still he will win.

    Read More
    • Agree: reiner Tor
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  44. reiner Tor says: • Website
    @Glossy
    It's really hard to overstate how much fun that show was.

    Other East German stuff that we saw: toy train sets. Very well done. I had an incredible East German constuctor set. Lots of gleaming steel planks of every shape that you put together with screws.

    Whenever I hear people say that East German-made stuff was of low quality, I attribute it to Western propaganda. The stuff *I* saw was top-notch.

    We had a Wartburg car. It was horrible, but very reliable. My father used to say that compared to the Dacia (a Romanian make based on a Renault model) that the Dacia was a great car produced in very bad quality, whereas the Wartburg was a shitty car produced in great quality.

    The two-stroke engines (besides the Wartburgs, a lot of Trabants also on our streets) poisoned us in our childhood. The East German engineers wanted to improve them, but the party prohibited it, because production couldn’t keep pace with the demand (in the Eastern Bloc), so they just kept producing a heavily obsolete car (albeit in excellent quality).

    Read More
    • Replies: @Glossy
    Pretty much all the cars you saw in the USSR were Soviet-made. We didn't own one, but I think there's a consensus that they weren't as good as Western or Japanese ones.

    However, the subways - not just in Moscow, but in every large Soviet city - were better than anything that exists in the West. Not just looks-wise. The trains ran on time and very often, the stations was super-clean. No stoppages.

    By the way, in the 1980s about half of all the buses on Soviet roads were Hungarian Ikaruses. I've never heard any complaints about them.
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  45. anon says: • Disclaimer
    @Philippe Lemoine
    Thanks for the h/t. If anyone is interested, I wrote another blog post in English about this, in which I say very similar things. The National Front won't be able to win until it softens its leftist stance on the economy. Of course, it shouldn't adopt a laissez-faire platform, but it's currently too far to the left on the economy, which makes it difficult to gain support among right-wing voters, which is where its real potential is. In particular, it should stop saying that it wants France to leave the euro, which turns off a lot of people.

    You sound like a French version of GOPe.

    FN don’t need to soften on the economy because neoliberal economics doesn’t work – for obvious reasons – so the economy will continue to degrade.

    Read More
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  46. At this point, I’m about to start rooting for the muzzies. Clearly France doesn’t want to live.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    Hey Daniel,

    Ethnic French can be Muzzies.
    "Conversions to marry have long been common enough in France, but a growing number of young people are now seen as converting to be better socially integrated in neighborhoods where Islam is dominant...In some predominantly Muslim areas, even non-Muslims observe Ramadan, the Muslim holy month that requires fasting during the day, because they like 'the group effect, the festive side of it'..."
    http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/04/world/europe/rise-of-islamic-converts-challenges-france.html

    It may be a new paradigm, but it'll be interesting seeing the French demanding a seat at the OIC.

    Peace.
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  47. anon says: • Disclaimer
    @Aly
    Only Fillon had a chance against Macron. He would be ok, but unfortunately he came third. It would be better if Le Pen voters voted for Fillon. Also FN shoud try to keep the voters for parlamentary elections, and maybe make inroads into Assembly, but where they have no chance they should support Republicans. Also they should reconsider their hate of euro and the EU. Instead of fighting against the euro and scaring people with that talk, they should focus all energy on immigration, that's the real problem.

    Also they should reconsider their hate of euro and the EU. Instead of fighting against the euro and scaring people with that talk, they should focus all energy on immigration, that’s the real problem.

    The EU wants mass immigration to undermine national identities.

    The FN needs to link the two issues – the EU wants open borders for divide an rule.

    Read More
    • Replies: @German_reader
    That's certainly true to some extent (and I'm not in favour of the EU as it is now), but France didn't acquire all those Muslims and Africans because she was told to do so by Brussels (same for Britain and its Pakistanis). And I think a lot of people are repelled by anti-EU talk, because they fear an end of the EU might lead to a return of the intra-European conflict of the 1914-45 era. That may be irrational and misguided, but one has to take it into account.
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  48. @anon

    Also they should reconsider their hate of euro and the EU. Instead of fighting against the euro and scaring people with that talk, they should focus all energy on immigration, that’s the real problem.
     
    The EU wants mass immigration to undermine national identities.

    The FN needs to link the two issues - the EU wants open borders for divide an rule.

    That’s certainly true to some extent (and I’m not in favour of the EU as it is now), but France didn’t acquire all those Muslims and Africans because she was told to do so by Brussels (same for Britain and its Pakistanis). And I think a lot of people are repelled by anti-EU talk, because they fear an end of the EU might lead to a return of the intra-European conflict of the 1914-45 era. That may be irrational and misguided, but one has to take it into account.

    Read More
    • Replies: @anon

    but France didn’t acquire all those Muslims and Africans because she was told to do so by Brussels
     
    true but the EU of today wants open borders to destroy national identity for divide and rule

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-18519395

    they fear an end of the EU might lead to a return of the intra-European conflict of the 1914-45 era
     
    fair enough - the above point would have to outweigh that, at least partially
    , @Randal

    And I think a lot of people are repelled by anti-EU talk, because they fear an end of the EU might lead to a return of the intra-European conflict of the 1914-45 era. That may be irrational and misguided, but one has to take it into account.
     
    That might well be true and there's plenty of polling evidence for it, at least so far as outright "leave the EU" policy options are concerned, but consider this (counting all the main parties' first round votes):

    2012

    Pro-EU
    Socialist Party 10.3m
    UMP 9.8m
    Democratic Movement 3.3m
    23.4m

    Anti-Euro/EU
    FN 6.4m
    Left Front 4m
    10.4m


    2017

    Pro-EU
    En Marche 8.7m
    Republicans 7.2m
    Socialist 2.3m
    18.2m

    Anti-Euro/EU
    FN 7.7m
    France insoumise 7.1m
    Debout la France 1.7m
    16.5m

    The future belongs to national sovereignty!

    It remains just to decide whether France will ultimately go with the "far right" anti-EU option, the party of national survival, or the "far left" anti-EU option which believes in escaping submergence into the pro-big business/finance aspects at least of the EU superstate only to commit national suicide anyway by mass immigration.

    [Cue rapid small print readout - past trends cannot necessarily be extrapolated into future ones, etc etc]
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  49. Glossy says: • Website
    @reiner Tor
    We had a Wartburg car. It was horrible, but very reliable. My father used to say that compared to the Dacia (a Romanian make based on a Renault model) that the Dacia was a great car produced in very bad quality, whereas the Wartburg was a shitty car produced in great quality.

    The two-stroke engines (besides the Wartburgs, a lot of Trabants also on our streets) poisoned us in our childhood. The East German engineers wanted to improve them, but the party prohibited it, because production couldn't keep pace with the demand (in the Eastern Bloc), so they just kept producing a heavily obsolete car (albeit in excellent quality).

    Pretty much all the cars you saw in the USSR were Soviet-made. We didn’t own one, but I think there’s a consensus that they weren’t as good as Western or Japanese ones.

    However, the subways – not just in Moscow, but in every large Soviet city – were better than anything that exists in the West. Not just looks-wise. The trains ran on time and very often, the stations was super-clean. No stoppages.

    By the way, in the 1980s about half of all the buses on Soviet roads were Hungarian Ikaruses. I’ve never heard any complaints about them.

    Read More
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  50. Randal says:
    @Anon
    Among the incalculables: will there be a Marine-Marion split analogous to the Marine-JM split?

    (I doubt it, but who knows?)

    You're right that Marine had no chance, essentially, ever, so there's no reason to be disappointed.

    Here’s the kind of story that has the potential to really damage Macron, because it hits him right where it hurts – in his “Socialist” hypocrisy and artificiality:

    France election: Macron heckled by pro-Le Pen workers

    As Emmanuel Macron was holding talks at the local chamber of commerce, the National Front leader made an unannounced visit to the picket line at the Whirlpool factory where she was greeted with enthusiasm by many of the striking workers.

    She told reporters there that Mr Macron’s decision to meet union officials in the comfortable surroundings of an office – rather than come to the factory gates as she had – was a sign of someone who deep down was contemptuous of working people’s lives.

    Read More
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  51. anon says: • Disclaimer
    @German_reader
    That's certainly true to some extent (and I'm not in favour of the EU as it is now), but France didn't acquire all those Muslims and Africans because she was told to do so by Brussels (same for Britain and its Pakistanis). And I think a lot of people are repelled by anti-EU talk, because they fear an end of the EU might lead to a return of the intra-European conflict of the 1914-45 era. That may be irrational and misguided, but one has to take it into account.

    but France didn’t acquire all those Muslims and Africans because she was told to do so by Brussels

    true but the EU of today wants open borders to destroy national identity for divide and rule

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-18519395

    they fear an end of the EU might lead to a return of the intra-European conflict of the 1914-45 era

    fair enough – the above point would have to outweigh that, at least partially

    Read More
    • Replies: @German_reader
    Well yes, as I stated I'm definitely not in favour of the EU as it is now, its entire anti-national ethos is totally wrong. But still, Le Pen's stance might come across as purely destructive to many who are in favour of some sort of cooperation between European countries (and memories of the world wars definitely play a role here imo, even if they are exploited for scare tactics by EU proponents). To me it also seems a bit like she wants to dodge the issue of Islam and immigration with its inevitable accusations of racism...attacking Brussels bureaucrats, German hegemony etc. is much safer than any honest discussion about France's demographic transformation. I have my doubts whether such a strategy can work...but admittedly my knowledge about the political situation in France is limited.
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  52. @anon

    but France didn’t acquire all those Muslims and Africans because she was told to do so by Brussels
     
    true but the EU of today wants open borders to destroy national identity for divide and rule

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-18519395

    they fear an end of the EU might lead to a return of the intra-European conflict of the 1914-45 era
     
    fair enough - the above point would have to outweigh that, at least partially

    Well yes, as I stated I’m definitely not in favour of the EU as it is now, its entire anti-national ethos is totally wrong. But still, Le Pen’s stance might come across as purely destructive to many who are in favour of some sort of cooperation between European countries (and memories of the world wars definitely play a role here imo, even if they are exploited for scare tactics by EU proponents). To me it also seems a bit like she wants to dodge the issue of Islam and immigration with its inevitable accusations of racism…attacking Brussels bureaucrats, German hegemony etc. is much safer than any honest discussion about France’s demographic transformation. I have my doubts whether such a strategy can work…but admittedly my knowledge about the political situation in France is limited.

    Read More
    • Replies: @for-the-record
    Fillon had an (apparently) rather strong position on immigration:

    https://www.fillon2017.fr/projet/immigration/
     
    He was also "pro" Russian and less "extreme" economically than Le Pen who proposes reducing the retirement age to 60 and maintaining the 35-hour work week.

    Prior to his "arranged" implosion, Fillon was the overwhelming favorite to win the election, which is presumably why the decision to implode him was taken. Le Pen never had a chance and, I am convinced, will never have a chance. For better or worse the FN is simply too "toxic" among "educated" French. This I know first hand, as I have 2 sons who were educated in France and for all intents and purposes are French (one even has a French passport).
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  53. Talha says:
    @Daniel Chieh
    At this point, I'm about to start rooting for the muzzies. Clearly France doesn't want to live.

    Hey Daniel,

    Ethnic French can be Muzzies.
    “Conversions to marry have long been common enough in France, but a growing number of young people are now seen as converting to be better socially integrated in neighborhoods where Islam is dominant…In some predominantly Muslim areas, even non-Muslims observe Ramadan, the Muslim holy month that requires fasting during the day, because they like ‘the group effect, the festive side of it’…”

    http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/04/world/europe/rise-of-islamic-converts-challenges-france.html

    It may be a new paradigm, but it’ll be interesting seeing the French demanding a seat at the OIC.

    Peace.

    Read More
    • Replies: @German_reader

    "Conversions to marry have long been common enough in France, but a growing number of young people are now seen as converting to be better socially integrated in neighborhoods where Islam is dominant"
     
    Honestly, that sounds like a defeated people submitting to its new masters.
    I don't wish ill on Muslims, but an islamicized France wouldn't be France anymore, but something totally different.
    , @Anon

    It may be a new paradigm, but it’ll be interesting seeing the French demanding a seat at the OIC.
     
    Macron should ask for observer status.
    , @anon

    but a growing number of young people are now seen as converting to be better socially integrated in neighborhoods where Islam is dominant
     
    yes. i knew an early teens white brother and sister who were the last white kids in their neighborhood and the girl converted because of the constant bullying and threats.
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  54. @Talha
    Hey Daniel,

    Ethnic French can be Muzzies.
    "Conversions to marry have long been common enough in France, but a growing number of young people are now seen as converting to be better socially integrated in neighborhoods where Islam is dominant...In some predominantly Muslim areas, even non-Muslims observe Ramadan, the Muslim holy month that requires fasting during the day, because they like 'the group effect, the festive side of it'..."
    http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/04/world/europe/rise-of-islamic-converts-challenges-france.html

    It may be a new paradigm, but it'll be interesting seeing the French demanding a seat at the OIC.

    Peace.

    “Conversions to marry have long been common enough in France, but a growing number of young people are now seen as converting to be better socially integrated in neighborhoods where Islam is dominant

    Honestly, that sounds like a defeated people submitting to its new masters.
    I don’t wish ill on Muslims, but an islamicized France wouldn’t be France anymore, but something totally different.

    Read More
    • Agree: Randal, Andrei Martyanov
    • Replies: @Talha
    Hey G_R,

    It's a back and forth. None of the Muslims in the Western countries are exactly like the same as from their origin countries either. Within my own children, within the next generation or so, Urdu will likely be gone. Much of their norms are also Western and anyone can tell that they are foreign when they take trips to visit Muslim countries.

    but an islamicized France wouldn’t be France anymore, but something totally different
     
    Correct - for one thing they'd probably be having babies again and it would likely ward off the White French demographic decline, there'd be a return to more patriarchal norms, etc.

    Peace.
    , @Greasy William

    but an islamicized France wouldn’t be France anymore, but something totally different.
     
    How do you propose we get rid of the Feminists and the gays without Islam?

    I'm against mass immigration, but we still need an alternative.
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  55. Randal says:
    @German_reader
    That's certainly true to some extent (and I'm not in favour of the EU as it is now), but France didn't acquire all those Muslims and Africans because she was told to do so by Brussels (same for Britain and its Pakistanis). And I think a lot of people are repelled by anti-EU talk, because they fear an end of the EU might lead to a return of the intra-European conflict of the 1914-45 era. That may be irrational and misguided, but one has to take it into account.

    And I think a lot of people are repelled by anti-EU talk, because they fear an end of the EU might lead to a return of the intra-European conflict of the 1914-45 era. That may be irrational and misguided, but one has to take it into account.

    That might well be true and there’s plenty of polling evidence for it, at least so far as outright “leave the EU” policy options are concerned, but consider this (counting all the main parties’ first round votes):

    2012

    Pro-EU
    Socialist Party 10.3m
    UMP 9.8m
    Democratic Movement 3.3m
    23.4m

    Anti-Euro/EU
    FN 6.4m
    Left Front 4m
    10.4m

    2017

    Pro-EU
    En Marche 8.7m
    Republicans 7.2m
    Socialist 2.3m
    18.2m

    Anti-Euro/EU
    FN 7.7m
    France insoumise 7.1m
    Debout la France 1.7m
    16.5m

    The future belongs to national sovereignty!

    It remains just to decide whether France will ultimately go with the “far right” anti-EU option, the party of national survival, or the “far left” anti-EU option which believes in escaping submergence into the pro-big business/finance aspects at least of the EU superstate only to commit national suicide anyway by mass immigration.

    [Cue rapid small print readout - past trends cannot necessarily be extrapolated into future ones, etc etc]

    Read More
    • Replies: @German_reader
    You're right, I didn't take into account how anti-EU Melenchon's party is...have to say I find this somewhat confusing. If there's that much anti-EU sentiment in France, just what is helding Le Pen back? Is it really just accusations that she stands for racism, the tradition of Vichy etc.?
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  56. neutral says:

    Not unless there’s a dirty nuke attack in the center of Paris, and as per above, I’m not even sure that would do the trick!

    I honestly don’t think these people would change their mind if a hot nuke went off in Paris, those that manage to survive would still not change their minds. And I am completely sincere in this opinion, this is not sarcasm or snark, I believe nothing can change their minds.

    Read More
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  57. @Randal

    And I think a lot of people are repelled by anti-EU talk, because they fear an end of the EU might lead to a return of the intra-European conflict of the 1914-45 era. That may be irrational and misguided, but one has to take it into account.
     
    That might well be true and there's plenty of polling evidence for it, at least so far as outright "leave the EU" policy options are concerned, but consider this (counting all the main parties' first round votes):

    2012

    Pro-EU
    Socialist Party 10.3m
    UMP 9.8m
    Democratic Movement 3.3m
    23.4m

    Anti-Euro/EU
    FN 6.4m
    Left Front 4m
    10.4m


    2017

    Pro-EU
    En Marche 8.7m
    Republicans 7.2m
    Socialist 2.3m
    18.2m

    Anti-Euro/EU
    FN 7.7m
    France insoumise 7.1m
    Debout la France 1.7m
    16.5m

    The future belongs to national sovereignty!

    It remains just to decide whether France will ultimately go with the "far right" anti-EU option, the party of national survival, or the "far left" anti-EU option which believes in escaping submergence into the pro-big business/finance aspects at least of the EU superstate only to commit national suicide anyway by mass immigration.

    [Cue rapid small print readout - past trends cannot necessarily be extrapolated into future ones, etc etc]

    You’re right, I didn’t take into account how anti-EU Melenchon’s party is…have to say I find this somewhat confusing. If there’s that much anti-EU sentiment in France, just what is helding Le Pen back? Is it really just accusations that she stands for racism, the tradition of Vichy etc.?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Randal

    Is it really just accusations that she stands for racism, the tradition of Vichy etc.?
     
    That certainly seems to be the reason for most of the left anti-EU types who simply refuse ever to consider voting FN (more perhaps amongst the over-70s where the FN is noticeably under-represented) even when faced with the alternative being a more or less admitted big business shill like Macron. Though the point made by several people here is plausible, that anti-EU feeling does not necessarily always go as far as actually wanting to leave the EU, so maybe the FN is just over-egging the pudding on this, for many.

    Also of course there are the more general effects of the massive media bias against nationalist parties that is common to all US sphere states.

    By the way, apropos of your comment above about the EU having an anti-national ethos, this story reminded me of the way laws in the US are being selectively interpreted by activist judges to block executive actions that are fundamental to national sovereignty (immigration restrictions in the US, the control of subversive foreign organisations in Hungary). This is a problem of a fanatically anti-nationalist and ruthlessly dishonest trans-national elite ideology, as much as it is of the EU in particular.

    Orbán on offensive after EU takes legal action over Soros university
    , @anon
    i think the simple explanation is
    - the trad Left are economically Left and socially Left
    - the trad Right are economically Right and socially Right
    - the globalist uniparty are economically Right and socially Left
    - nationalist parties tend to become economically Left (ish) and socially Right

    so nationalist and globalist are irreconcilable opposites but to get the others nationalists need to
    - persuade the Left on social issues
    - persuade the Right on economic issues
    both of these are difficult but not impossible

    apart from persuasion in those areas if people on the trad Right and trad Left feel the situation is dangerous enough they'll trade security for only getting half of what they want

    , @Anatoly Karlin
    Worth noting that France has become one of the more Euro-skeptical countries in the past few years.

    http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2016/06/24/12/359EAB3D00000578-3657965-image-a-61_1466768246214.jpg

    As with economics, I doubt Le Pen's stance on the EU is hurting her that much, considering her electorate.
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  58. Talha says:
    @German_reader

    "Conversions to marry have long been common enough in France, but a growing number of young people are now seen as converting to be better socially integrated in neighborhoods where Islam is dominant"
     
    Honestly, that sounds like a defeated people submitting to its new masters.
    I don't wish ill on Muslims, but an islamicized France wouldn't be France anymore, but something totally different.

    Hey G_R,

    It’s a back and forth. None of the Muslims in the Western countries are exactly like the same as from their origin countries either. Within my own children, within the next generation or so, Urdu will likely be gone. Much of their norms are also Western and anyone can tell that they are foreign when they take trips to visit Muslim countries.

    but an islamicized France wouldn’t be France anymore, but something totally different

    Correct – for one thing they’d probably be having babies again and it would likely ward off the White French demographic decline, there’d be a return to more patriarchal norms, etc.

    Peace.

    Read More
    • Replies: @German_reader

    Correct – for one thing they’d probably be having babies again and it would likely ward off the White French demographic decline, there’d be a return to more patriarchal norms, etc.
     
    Race is important to me, but it's not everything. I think if Europe became Islamic, even if it stayed majority white, I'd rather flee to Brazil. If Europeans embraced Islam, they wouldn't be my people anymore, and I'd rather live among foreigners of another racial background, but who have some connection to what Europe once was.
    Honestly, the segment you cited makes it pretty clear imo that many of those converts don't convert because of inner conviction, but because they want to fit in with the demographically dominant Muslims...it's a matter of conforming to social pressure by a dominant group. And given what I know of the behaviour of a non-trivial part of Muslim immigrants in Europe, this process is certainly greatly aided by all manner of harassment ("Hey you slut, how dare you walk in your immodest dress in our street! That's haram!").
    I don't blame you though that you view the spread of Islam positively. You're a devout Muslim and cannot but see conversions to Islam as part of God's plan for mankind. It's equally clear however that a secular nationalist like me can only view this development with horror (as presumably would most Christians, and probably even many non-Muslim immigrants who had somewhat unpleasant experiences with Islam in the old country). On that question there just isn't any common ground between us and can't be.
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  59. @Talha
    Hey G_R,

    It's a back and forth. None of the Muslims in the Western countries are exactly like the same as from their origin countries either. Within my own children, within the next generation or so, Urdu will likely be gone. Much of their norms are also Western and anyone can tell that they are foreign when they take trips to visit Muslim countries.

    but an islamicized France wouldn’t be France anymore, but something totally different
     
    Correct - for one thing they'd probably be having babies again and it would likely ward off the White French demographic decline, there'd be a return to more patriarchal norms, etc.

    Peace.

    Correct – for one thing they’d probably be having babies again and it would likely ward off the White French demographic decline, there’d be a return to more patriarchal norms, etc.

    Race is important to me, but it’s not everything. I think if Europe became Islamic, even if it stayed majority white, I’d rather flee to Brazil. If Europeans embraced Islam, they wouldn’t be my people anymore, and I’d rather live among foreigners of another racial background, but who have some connection to what Europe once was.
    Honestly, the segment you cited makes it pretty clear imo that many of those converts don’t convert because of inner conviction, but because they want to fit in with the demographically dominant Muslims…it’s a matter of conforming to social pressure by a dominant group. And given what I know of the behaviour of a non-trivial part of Muslim immigrants in Europe, this process is certainly greatly aided by all manner of harassment (“Hey you slut, how dare you walk in your immodest dress in our street! That’s haram!”).
    I don’t blame you though that you view the spread of Islam positively. You’re a devout Muslim and cannot but see conversions to Islam as part of God’s plan for mankind. It’s equally clear however that a secular nationalist like me can only view this development with horror (as presumably would most Christians, and probably even many non-Muslim immigrants who had somewhat unpleasant experiences with Islam in the old country). On that question there just isn’t any common ground between us and can’t be.

    Read More
    • Agree: BenKenobi
    • Replies: @Talha
    Hey G_R,

    many of those converts don’t convert because of inner conviction
     
    Historically, some convert due to conviction, some for social or economic reasons, some to fit in, some because they want to get with that honey from the Maghreb - human beings are rarely predictable or black and white. If I remember correctly, the Golden Horde became Muslim simply because their chieftains did and that's what you did if you were a Mongol and your chief asked it of you.

    From the materialist framework - conviction presupposes a 'ghost in the machine' which doesn't exist. Faith (sincere or insincere) is an illusion - the entire matter boils down to adaptation strategy and survival instinct - the same as when Europe went Christian or post-Christian.

    I definitely share your concern about the bad manners that many Muslims show in Western countries - that is not the right way to be.

    I can see your apprehension about a growing Muslim presence. I shudder thinking about a society or planet devoid of faith so I can empathize with what you may be feeling. I think that is simply natural since each side's vision of society is different. As I've said before, I think healthy distance between people holding divergent views is a good thing - good fences make good neighbors. I'm personally a fan of the enclave/millet model.

    Peace.
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  60. Randal says:
    @German_reader
    You're right, I didn't take into account how anti-EU Melenchon's party is...have to say I find this somewhat confusing. If there's that much anti-EU sentiment in France, just what is helding Le Pen back? Is it really just accusations that she stands for racism, the tradition of Vichy etc.?

    Is it really just accusations that she stands for racism, the tradition of Vichy etc.?

    That certainly seems to be the reason for most of the left anti-EU types who simply refuse ever to consider voting FN (more perhaps amongst the over-70s where the FN is noticeably under-represented) even when faced with the alternative being a more or less admitted big business shill like Macron. Though the point made by several people here is plausible, that anti-EU feeling does not necessarily always go as far as actually wanting to leave the EU, so maybe the FN is just over-egging the pudding on this, for many.

    Also of course there are the more general effects of the massive media bias against nationalist parties that is common to all US sphere states.

    By the way, apropos of your comment above about the EU having an anti-national ethos, this story reminded me of the way laws in the US are being selectively interpreted by activist judges to block executive actions that are fundamental to national sovereignty (immigration restrictions in the US, the control of subversive foreign organisations in Hungary). This is a problem of a fanatically anti-nationalist and ruthlessly dishonest trans-national elite ideology, as much as it is of the EU in particular.

    Orbán on offensive after EU takes legal action over Soros university

    Read More
    • Replies: @German_reader
    I think at this stage it's clear it's just about power and one can forget about any notions of rule of law, democratic accountability, fair play etc. It's quite scary how openly ruthless the establishment has become...here in Germany violent "antifascists" regularly attack property and persons of AfD politicians (and hardly ever get caught or prosecuted for it). Not a word of condemnation of this by mainstream politicians, instead they're organizing demonstrations against the AfD. And of course Marine Le Pen is also constrained in many ways in her actions. The threat of prosecution under France's draconian hate speech laws is very real after all.
    , @reiner Tor
    The problem is a lot of formerly (or even now) pro-Fidesz respectable conservative types are cucking on this issue in Hungary.

    CEU was of course probably the best university in the humanities and social sciences in Hungary, even though it had the only gender studies department on any university, there was a lot of genuine scholarly work going on. For example their medieval studies department is very good. They also operated a great university library together with the biggest state university, where they provided most of the money. Soros knew that the best way to create an ideological university is to create a genuinely good university and then add queergendered holocaust studies etc. courses to it. The best propaganda always gives you something else (for example good entertainment, or in this case genuine scholarship) as bait to make you take the propaganda, too.

    Their economics department is considered very good, for example, but of course it employed an economist who, together with a sociologist also working there, produced a working paper which "proved" that accepting hundreds of thousands of refugees would be a huge economic boon for the country.

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  61. Anon says: • Disclaimer
    @Talha
    Hey Daniel,

    Ethnic French can be Muzzies.
    "Conversions to marry have long been common enough in France, but a growing number of young people are now seen as converting to be better socially integrated in neighborhoods where Islam is dominant...In some predominantly Muslim areas, even non-Muslims observe Ramadan, the Muslim holy month that requires fasting during the day, because they like 'the group effect, the festive side of it'..."
    http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/04/world/europe/rise-of-islamic-converts-challenges-france.html

    It may be a new paradigm, but it'll be interesting seeing the French demanding a seat at the OIC.

    Peace.

    It may be a new paradigm, but it’ll be interesting seeing the French demanding a seat at the OIC.

    Macron should ask for observer status.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    At this point? Sure - I mean Thailand has that status! If population reaches close to 50%, they should demand a table. And show a little bit of Teutonic gumption, as for a seat near the head of the table.

    Peace.
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  62. @Randal

    Is it really just accusations that she stands for racism, the tradition of Vichy etc.?
     
    That certainly seems to be the reason for most of the left anti-EU types who simply refuse ever to consider voting FN (more perhaps amongst the over-70s where the FN is noticeably under-represented) even when faced with the alternative being a more or less admitted big business shill like Macron. Though the point made by several people here is plausible, that anti-EU feeling does not necessarily always go as far as actually wanting to leave the EU, so maybe the FN is just over-egging the pudding on this, for many.

    Also of course there are the more general effects of the massive media bias against nationalist parties that is common to all US sphere states.

    By the way, apropos of your comment above about the EU having an anti-national ethos, this story reminded me of the way laws in the US are being selectively interpreted by activist judges to block executive actions that are fundamental to national sovereignty (immigration restrictions in the US, the control of subversive foreign organisations in Hungary). This is a problem of a fanatically anti-nationalist and ruthlessly dishonest trans-national elite ideology, as much as it is of the EU in particular.

    Orbán on offensive after EU takes legal action over Soros university

    I think at this stage it’s clear it’s just about power and one can forget about any notions of rule of law, democratic accountability, fair play etc. It’s quite scary how openly ruthless the establishment has become…here in Germany violent “antifascists” regularly attack property and persons of AfD politicians (and hardly ever get caught or prosecuted for it). Not a word of condemnation of this by mainstream politicians, instead they’re organizing demonstrations against the AfD. And of course Marine Le Pen is also constrained in many ways in her actions. The threat of prosecution under France’s draconian hate speech laws is very real after all.

    Read More
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  63. anon says: • Disclaimer
    @Talha
    Hey Daniel,

    Ethnic French can be Muzzies.
    "Conversions to marry have long been common enough in France, but a growing number of young people are now seen as converting to be better socially integrated in neighborhoods where Islam is dominant...In some predominantly Muslim areas, even non-Muslims observe Ramadan, the Muslim holy month that requires fasting during the day, because they like 'the group effect, the festive side of it'..."
    http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/04/world/europe/rise-of-islamic-converts-challenges-france.html

    It may be a new paradigm, but it'll be interesting seeing the French demanding a seat at the OIC.

    Peace.

    but a growing number of young people are now seen as converting to be better socially integrated in neighborhoods where Islam is dominant

    yes. i knew an early teens white brother and sister who were the last white kids in their neighborhood and the girl converted because of the constant bullying and threats.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    Did the bullying stop?
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  64. anon says: • Disclaimer
    @German_reader
    You're right, I didn't take into account how anti-EU Melenchon's party is...have to say I find this somewhat confusing. If there's that much anti-EU sentiment in France, just what is helding Le Pen back? Is it really just accusations that she stands for racism, the tradition of Vichy etc.?

    i think the simple explanation is
    - the trad Left are economically Left and socially Left
    - the trad Right are economically Right and socially Right
    - the globalist uniparty are economically Right and socially Left
    - nationalist parties tend to become economically Left (ish) and socially Right

    so nationalist and globalist are irreconcilable opposites but to get the others nationalists need to
    - persuade the Left on social issues
    - persuade the Right on economic issues
    both of these are difficult but not impossible

    apart from persuasion in those areas if people on the trad Right and trad Left feel the situation is dangerous enough they’ll trade security for only getting half of what they want

    Read More
    • Replies: @German_reader
    Good analysis. I'm not sure however how much of a traditional Left still actually exists in Western Europe. And their views on social issues are pretty much contradictory in my opinion...once the Left after all did stand for secularism, women's rights etc. Hard to see how their current enthusiasm for Islam (which nowadays seems to be the standard among most socialists) can be reconciled with this.
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  65. anon says: • Disclaimer

    I think all the points people have made about the likelihood of Marine doing very well are all valid and it may just be wishful thinking on my part but to my eye Macron just reeks of mental instability so i don’t think it’s 100% certain.

    Read More
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  66. ussr andy says:
    @Andrei Martyanov

    I fear that by 2022, the demographics will be stacked against French nationalists.
     
    I would say that tactical and operational realities on the ground are already stacked against them. France simply doesn't have a pool of people who would be able to take weapons to stand their ground. I constantly refer (for comparison reasons) to Russia's events in Kondopoga and Sagra, many may not remember but real "taming" (or "conversion") of Ramzan Kadyrov happened namely then. I can only express my condolences to (real) French people and assume that Elena Chudinova's prophecy about Lefebvrists blowing the Mosque Of Notre Dame De Paris in the last act of defiance may not even come into reality.

    France simply doesn’t have a pool of people who would be able to take weapons to stand their ground

    they all have day jobs, families, mortgages, in short, too much to lose. There are people for whom being out of work is a huge deal and those for whom a stint in prison is no big disruption to their life (incl. social life.) Naturally, the second type are at an advantage when the state defaults on its duty to protect citizens.

    I constantly refer (for comparison reasons) to Russia’s events in Kondopoga and Sagra,

    Kondopoga is a monotown (“a city/town whose economy is dominated by a single industry or company”) and a problem region though. The thing there was desperate and non-systemic (politically helpless) as far as these things go.

    I don’t know where I’m going with this. Must it get much worse till it gets better?

    Read More
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  67. Dan Hayes says:
    @Andrei Martyanov

    I fear that by 2022, the demographics will be stacked against French nationalists.
     
    I would say that tactical and operational realities on the ground are already stacked against them. France simply doesn't have a pool of people who would be able to take weapons to stand their ground. I constantly refer (for comparison reasons) to Russia's events in Kondopoga and Sagra, many may not remember but real "taming" (or "conversion") of Ramzan Kadyrov happened namely then. I can only express my condolences to (real) French people and assume that Elena Chudinova's prophecy about Lefebvrists blowing the Mosque Of Notre Dame De Paris in the last act of defiance may not even come into reality.

    Andrei Martyanov,

    Elena Chudinova’s “The Mosque of Notre Dame De Paris” is a very riveting dystopian work although I’m afraid it hasn’t got the attention is deserves.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Andrei Martyanov

    Elena Chudinova’s “The Mosque of Notre Dame De Paris” is a very riveting dystopian work although I’m afraid it hasn’t got the attention is deserves.
     
    Western "intellectuals" prefer Houellebecq's derivative, plus Chudinova is too "violent" and tactically and operationally realistic about what is already beginning to happen in Europe. Nah, ideas of some pseudo-intellectual French cuck in justifying betrayal of his own culture, evidently, are more interesting for them. While Europe "intellectually debates" Houellebecq's book, they forgot that they better start learning how to shoot, organize patrols, block posts etc. Daria Aslamova (a famous Russian reporter) recently made a huge expose on this:

    https://www.thelocal.fr/20161104/french-look-to-arm-themselves-after-attacks

    She stayed with older French couple near Calais, those people are basically ready to die in their house (and shop) and bought Mosin's gun, but those people are not majority: Europe today is basically a concentration of urban metrosexual wussies who tremble at the idea of having a gun.
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  68. @Philippe Lemoine
    Thanks for the h/t. If anyone is interested, I wrote another blog post in English about this, in which I say very similar things. The National Front won't be able to win until it softens its leftist stance on the economy. Of course, it shouldn't adopt a laissez-faire platform, but it's currently too far to the left on the economy, which makes it difficult to gain support among right-wing voters, which is where its real potential is. In particular, it should stop saying that it wants France to leave the euro, which turns off a lot of people.

    Excellent analysis, thank you.

    But we are being too hard on ourselves here: Unlike Brexit or Trump FN never had a chance to actually win. The key is to double her old man’s result from 15 years ago. 15 years from now, her niece can win.

    Read More
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  69. Talha says:
    @anon

    but a growing number of young people are now seen as converting to be better socially integrated in neighborhoods where Islam is dominant
     
    yes. i knew an early teens white brother and sister who were the last white kids in their neighborhood and the girl converted because of the constant bullying and threats.

    Did the bullying stop?

    Read More
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  70. Talha says:
    @Anon

    It may be a new paradigm, but it’ll be interesting seeing the French demanding a seat at the OIC.
     
    Macron should ask for observer status.

    At this point? Sure – I mean Thailand has that status! If population reaches close to 50%, they should demand a table. And show a little bit of Teutonic gumption, as for a seat near the head of the table.

    Peace.

    Read More
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  71. Talha says:
    @German_reader

    Correct – for one thing they’d probably be having babies again and it would likely ward off the White French demographic decline, there’d be a return to more patriarchal norms, etc.
     
    Race is important to me, but it's not everything. I think if Europe became Islamic, even if it stayed majority white, I'd rather flee to Brazil. If Europeans embraced Islam, they wouldn't be my people anymore, and I'd rather live among foreigners of another racial background, but who have some connection to what Europe once was.
    Honestly, the segment you cited makes it pretty clear imo that many of those converts don't convert because of inner conviction, but because they want to fit in with the demographically dominant Muslims...it's a matter of conforming to social pressure by a dominant group. And given what I know of the behaviour of a non-trivial part of Muslim immigrants in Europe, this process is certainly greatly aided by all manner of harassment ("Hey you slut, how dare you walk in your immodest dress in our street! That's haram!").
    I don't blame you though that you view the spread of Islam positively. You're a devout Muslim and cannot but see conversions to Islam as part of God's plan for mankind. It's equally clear however that a secular nationalist like me can only view this development with horror (as presumably would most Christians, and probably even many non-Muslim immigrants who had somewhat unpleasant experiences with Islam in the old country). On that question there just isn't any common ground between us and can't be.

    Hey G_R,

    many of those converts don’t convert because of inner conviction

    Historically, some convert due to conviction, some for social or economic reasons, some to fit in, some because they want to get with that honey from the Maghreb – human beings are rarely predictable or black and white. If I remember correctly, the Golden Horde became Muslim simply because their chieftains did and that’s what you did if you were a Mongol and your chief asked it of you.

    From the materialist framework – conviction presupposes a ‘ghost in the machine’ which doesn’t exist. Faith (sincere or insincere) is an illusion – the entire matter boils down to adaptation strategy and survival instinct – the same as when Europe went Christian or post-Christian.

    I definitely share your concern about the bad manners that many Muslims show in Western countries – that is not the right way to be.

    I can see your apprehension about a growing Muslim presence. I shudder thinking about a society or planet devoid of faith so I can empathize with what you may be feeling. I think that is simply natural since each side’s vision of society is different. As I’ve said before, I think healthy distance between people holding divergent views is a good thing – good fences make good neighbors. I’m personally a fan of the enclave/millet model.

    Peace.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Hector_St_Clare
    Talha,

    I'm not materialist (I'm Christian of a heterodox sort) and neither are you, so I'm not sure why either you or I would find a 'materialist viewpoint' convincing. Why are you even making that argument then? Conversion out of genuine faith is entirely different than conversion for social reasons.

    Like German Reader, I think conversion of Europeans en masse would be a horrible prospect, both because I think Islam is false at the level of theology, and because I disagree with the kind of social and cultural values that it promotes, specifically stuff like you mention (larger families, more patriarchal norms, etc.). I actively don't want a Muslim society or a Muslim world and it makes me shudder to exactly the same degree that a society without faith makes you shudder. My hope is that the sexual revolution eventually makes enough headway in Muslim societies- as it has in Latin America, Asia, and the developed world- to result in the consequent drop in Muslim fertility.

    I care about Europe maintaining both its ethno-racial and its religious identities: they're both important to me. I don't want a Europe where blonde hair and blue eyes have become rare curiosities, even if everyone was Christian or agnostic, but I also don't want an Europe full of blue eyed Muslims.

    "Healthy distance between people holding divergent views" is certainly a very good thing, but surely you realize that mass migration, as currently constituted, is destructive of exactly that vision? You could maybe get there by partitioning European borders so that you have self contained Muslim nations within Europe. I would be certainly open to something like that: it would be more humane to French Muslims to let them keep part of 'their' country rather than send them back to Algeria. But the most meaningful, enforceable and significant kind of community today is the national community, so if you want a world of distinct and divergent visions of society, they really need to coincide with national boundaries.
    , @German_reader

    I shudder thinking about a society or planet devoid of faith so I can empathize with what you may be feeling.
     
    I don't think you need to worry about that. I'm not religious now, but even I had some vague belief in God when I was younger. Atheism isn't a very comforting world view when you think about it, and most people will probably always rather seek meaning in some form of religious faith.
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  72. reiner Tor says: • Website
    @Randal

    Is it really just accusations that she stands for racism, the tradition of Vichy etc.?
     
    That certainly seems to be the reason for most of the left anti-EU types who simply refuse ever to consider voting FN (more perhaps amongst the over-70s where the FN is noticeably under-represented) even when faced with the alternative being a more or less admitted big business shill like Macron. Though the point made by several people here is plausible, that anti-EU feeling does not necessarily always go as far as actually wanting to leave the EU, so maybe the FN is just over-egging the pudding on this, for many.

    Also of course there are the more general effects of the massive media bias against nationalist parties that is common to all US sphere states.

    By the way, apropos of your comment above about the EU having an anti-national ethos, this story reminded me of the way laws in the US are being selectively interpreted by activist judges to block executive actions that are fundamental to national sovereignty (immigration restrictions in the US, the control of subversive foreign organisations in Hungary). This is a problem of a fanatically anti-nationalist and ruthlessly dishonest trans-national elite ideology, as much as it is of the EU in particular.

    Orbán on offensive after EU takes legal action over Soros university

    The problem is a lot of formerly (or even now) pro-Fidesz respectable conservative types are cucking on this issue in Hungary.

    CEU was of course probably the best university in the humanities and social sciences in Hungary, even though it had the only gender studies department on any university, there was a lot of genuine scholarly work going on. For example their medieval studies department is very good. They also operated a great university library together with the biggest state university, where they provided most of the money. Soros knew that the best way to create an ideological university is to create a genuinely good university and then add queergendered holocaust studies etc. courses to it. The best propaganda always gives you something else (for example good entertainment, or in this case genuine scholarship) as bait to make you take the propaganda, too.

    Their economics department is considered very good, for example, but of course it employed an economist who, together with a sociologist also working there, produced a working paper which “proved” that accepting hundreds of thousands of refugees would be a huge economic boon for the country.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Verymuchalive
    Hungary really needed strict rules governing the formation of private universities, like we have in Britain. There are 5 private universities, largely based near London, dealing in vocational subjects and catering largely for foreign students. With the exception of the University of Buckingham, none has a high profile.
    Prevention is better than cure, especially when dealing with a parasite like Soros.
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  73. @German_reader
    Well yes, as I stated I'm definitely not in favour of the EU as it is now, its entire anti-national ethos is totally wrong. But still, Le Pen's stance might come across as purely destructive to many who are in favour of some sort of cooperation between European countries (and memories of the world wars definitely play a role here imo, even if they are exploited for scare tactics by EU proponents). To me it also seems a bit like she wants to dodge the issue of Islam and immigration with its inevitable accusations of racism...attacking Brussels bureaucrats, German hegemony etc. is much safer than any honest discussion about France's demographic transformation. I have my doubts whether such a strategy can work...but admittedly my knowledge about the political situation in France is limited.

    Fillon had an (apparently) rather strong position on immigration:

    https://www.fillon2017.fr/projet/immigration/

    He was also “pro” Russian and less “extreme” economically than Le Pen who proposes reducing the retirement age to 60 and maintaining the 35-hour work week.

    Prior to his “arranged” implosion, Fillon was the overwhelming favorite to win the election, which is presumably why the decision to implode him was taken. Le Pen never had a chance and, I am convinced, will never have a chance. For better or worse the FN is simply too “toxic” among “educated” French. This I know first hand, as I have 2 sons who were educated in France and for all intents and purposes are French (one even has a French passport).

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    • Replies: @German_reader
    That seems reasonable. From what I've read the way Fillon's little scandal (probably no worse than what most French politicians do) was brought to light and investigated was very dubious, with obvious interference from the Élysée and some special court that normally wouldn't have investigated the case.
    And maybe you're right and FN just is too toxic even for many patriotic French. Maybe non-French don't understand all the historical baggage that's playing a role here (it suppose it's growing less important now, but as I understand it Vichy, and later the Algerian war, left some lasting divisions in French society).
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  74. anon says: • Disclaimer
    @Philippe Lemoine
    Thanks for the h/t. If anyone is interested, I wrote another blog post in English about this, in which I say very similar things. The National Front won't be able to win until it softens its leftist stance on the economy. Of course, it shouldn't adopt a laissez-faire platform, but it's currently too far to the left on the economy, which makes it difficult to gain support among right-wing voters, which is where its real potential is. In particular, it should stop saying that it wants France to leave the euro, which turns off a lot of people.

    https://www.ft.com/content/935a7d98-12e2-11e7-80f4-13e067d5072c

    I think she will find a way beyond this roadblock.

    Instead of being about leaving the EU/Euro …. I think she needs to come up with a French idiom for ‘building the wall’ and make it about borders. And argue the willingness to leave the EU/Euro if this core demand can’t be met within the EU/Euro.

    Or something like that.

    Frankly, I don’t get why the elite is so enamored with this obviously unpopular idea. Their intelligent response to nationalism would be to start enforcing current rules without announcing it. With some minor changes.

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  75. @Glossy
    I wonder how much of the result in Brittany was Breton, anti-French nationalism. It must exist, I just don't know how strong it is.

    If she gets 40% nationally, I think that will be an all-time high for FN. So the global populust-nationalist trend continues.

    Here it is: https://sputnikipogrom.com/politics/70380/election-presidentielle/

    That was a very sad affair.

    We are actually planning to dissect it on the next ROGPR podcast.

    France is far more anti-capitalist than the US, and considerably more so even than Russia (according to opinion polls). If the FN moves right, she will simply lose the white proles who have defected en masse from the Socialists to the FN.

    In any case the race/nationality issue in France is now at least 10x more important than any economic considerations, so it is especially maladaptive for a nationalist resource to make that a focal point of their critique.

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    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    Decreasing the pension age seems dumb to me, though. Perhaps it could be lowered for some backbreaking blue collar occupations, while simultaneously increased for white collar types. I'm sure it's possible to do office work well into ones sixties (perhaps even over 70, though I think much less intensity), but backbreaking blue collar work might become impossible already at age 60.
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  76. @German_reader

    "I’m betting on our elites continuing to congratulate themselves on the wonderful results of multiculturalism until the very end."
     
    That's not surprising though, after all they and their predecessors are responsible for the disastrous policies that led to the present situation. I just don't get though how many supposedly educated people can't see that this will in all likelihood end pretty badly. Karlin has written in the past - and commenter Philippe Lemoine has confirmed it - that FN does pretty badly among university-educated people, and I guess the same is true for most even vaguely nationalist parties in Europe. I really don't understand that given events of the last 15 years or so.

    (1) University educated people live with other university educated people – other whites, as well as the cream of the immigrant crop.

    This trend is actually intensifying due to the increasing cognitive stratification that Charles Murray has written about.

    (2) Sailer has also written a lot on the class war element of pro-immigration/minority virtue signalling.

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    • Replies: @German_reader
    That's certainly true, I just wonder how supposedly educated people with high IQs can be that ignorant...it's not like those issues haven't been discussed to some extent even in mainstream media. It was quite revealing here in Germany a few years ago when Thilo Sarrazin published his book which among other issues dealt with hereditary factors for intelligence. Now Sarrazin probably could be criticised for many details or even for his general tone, but it was quite astonishing (in a bad way) how many supposedly smart people had really weird ideas of the sort "NO hereditary factors at all for intelligence". There's just a whole nexus of unexamined ideas that are just taken for granted and defended with the utmost vehemence (if you dissent, you'll get excommunicated immediately). It's pretty hard to act against such extreme conformism.
    , @unpc downunder
    When people with similar political views only socialise with people like themselves, they tend to reinforce each other views. Hence a political moderate who lives around lots of left-liberals will tend to become more liberal, while a moderate left-liberal who is surrounded by lots of left-wing people will move further to the left.

    What's happened over the last century of urbanisation is that many whites with liberal inclinations have moved to large cities where they have turned into staunch liberals and leftists. A hundred years ago most of them would have lived in smaller towns and cities where they would have had to socialise with a lot of people with more conservative political views.

    It also needs pointing out that there are now very few poor white people in large cities, Hence, liberal urban whites only see relatively wealthy whites and economically struggling minorities. This is one of the reasons why they tend to take the side of non-whites on immigration and law and order matters. In the geographic space they inhibit, only non-whites struggle economically.

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  77. reiner Tor says: • Website
    @Anatoly Karlin
    Here it is: https://sputnikipogrom.com/politics/70380/election-presidentielle/

    That was a very sad affair.

    We are actually planning to dissect it on the next ROGPR podcast.

    France is far more anti-capitalist than the US, and considerably more so even than Russia (according to opinion polls). If the FN moves right, she will simply lose the white proles who have defected en masse from the Socialists to the FN.

    In any case the race/nationality issue in France is now at least 10x more important than any economic considerations, so it is especially maladaptive for a nationalist resource to make that a focal point of their critique.

    Decreasing the pension age seems dumb to me, though. Perhaps it could be lowered for some backbreaking blue collar occupations, while simultaneously increased for white collar types. I’m sure it’s possible to do office work well into ones sixties (perhaps even over 70, though I think much less intensity), but backbreaking blue collar work might become impossible already at age 60.

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  78. @German_reader
    You're right, I didn't take into account how anti-EU Melenchon's party is...have to say I find this somewhat confusing. If there's that much anti-EU sentiment in France, just what is helding Le Pen back? Is it really just accusations that she stands for racism, the tradition of Vichy etc.?

    Worth noting that France has become one of the more Euro-skeptical countries in the past few years.

    As with economics, I doubt Le Pen’s stance on the EU is hurting her that much, considering her electorate.

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  79. @reiner Tor
    The problem is a lot of formerly (or even now) pro-Fidesz respectable conservative types are cucking on this issue in Hungary.

    CEU was of course probably the best university in the humanities and social sciences in Hungary, even though it had the only gender studies department on any university, there was a lot of genuine scholarly work going on. For example their medieval studies department is very good. They also operated a great university library together with the biggest state university, where they provided most of the money. Soros knew that the best way to create an ideological university is to create a genuinely good university and then add queergendered holocaust studies etc. courses to it. The best propaganda always gives you something else (for example good entertainment, or in this case genuine scholarship) as bait to make you take the propaganda, too.

    Their economics department is considered very good, for example, but of course it employed an economist who, together with a sociologist also working there, produced a working paper which "proved" that accepting hundreds of thousands of refugees would be a huge economic boon for the country.

    Hungary really needed strict rules governing the formation of private universities, like we have in Britain. There are 5 private universities, largely based near London, dealing in vocational subjects and catering largely for foreign students. With the exception of the University of Buckingham, none has a high profile.
    Prevention is better than cure, especially when dealing with a parasite like Soros.

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  80. AP says:
    @Andrei Martyanov

    I fear that by 2022, the demographics will be stacked against French nationalists.
     
    I would say that tactical and operational realities on the ground are already stacked against them. France simply doesn't have a pool of people who would be able to take weapons to stand their ground. I constantly refer (for comparison reasons) to Russia's events in Kondopoga and Sagra, many may not remember but real "taming" (or "conversion") of Ramzan Kadyrov happened namely then. I can only express my condolences to (real) French people and assume that Elena Chudinova's prophecy about Lefebvrists blowing the Mosque Of Notre Dame De Paris in the last act of defiance may not even come into reality.

    I constantly refer (for comparison reasons) to Russia’s events in Kondopoga and Sagra, many may not remember but real “taming” (or “conversion”) of Ramzan Kadyrov happened namely then.

    These incidents likely reflect state helplessness as much as they do Russian vitality. Chechens have a reputation of being able to do things to Russians with impunity, so desperate ethnic Russians took things in their own hands because the state refused to help them, the police would let them go.

    In contrast, the state does go after such people in most Western countries. Who fills up western prisons? So there is little need of vigilantism.

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    • Replies: @German_reader

    "In contrast, the state does go after such people in most Western countries."
     
    That's not necessarily true anymore. Hardly anybody has been tried, let alone convicted for the 2015/16 sex assaults in Cologne (and there must have been at least dozens, if not hundreds of perpetrators). Or look at how "grooming" by Pakistani gangs has been covered up in Britain...certainly many of the perpetrators there felt above the law for a long time (and may still do so, although there have been some trials by now).
    And at least here in Germany, punishments for violent assault are also often quite low, especially for juveniles (which often includes people until their early 20s). You can kick or beat someone to death for some absurd reason and expect to spend at most a few years in prison...and those from certain violent-prone backgrounds act accordingly.
    I take no position on how good/bad things are in Russia (I just don't know), but your view of much of Western Europe might be too positive nowadays.
    , @Anatoly Karlin
    I wish there were ethnic statistics on this, though as in France, the Russian state is in no hurry to release them.

    Still, the fact that there is now talk of a "civil war" between the vory (mostly Georgians, Russians, other non-Islamic minorities) and the djamaats (Muslim minorities, esp. North Caucasus) in Russia's prisons does at least indicate that many of them are going to jail rather than getting off scot-free.
    , @Andrei Martyanov

    These incidents likely reflect state helplessness as much as they do Russian vitality.
     
    Yeah, like the Russian Union of Veterans openly inviting Kadyrov and his people to Kondopoga--sounds really "helpless" to me. As per Sagra--I don't know, shooting a bunch of a-holes and making them run. Maybe we are talking about some other events. no? Let's not invent things which were not there, including whole "Caucasus" diaspora simply disappearing from localities I mentioned. It is also remarkable how all those Caucasus "warriors" disappear from the streets on occasions of Paratrooper Day, Border Guards Day, Navy Day celebrations.

    As per state--it depends greatly on particular locations. In the end, the guy who killed and wounded a bunch of Gypsy thugs recently got acquitted completely by the court. In the end, the existence of real ethnic mafias in, say, Moscow was a result of Luzhkov's rather "liberal" attitudes to them, the same goes to a number of other locations. Russian state only recently began to regain some departure from 1990s and it will take some time before it becomes more or less effective. Events on Manezhnaya (as an example) were allowed to happen and guess what? After that inter-ethnic relations improved. So, yes, vitality is there.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/dec/13/two-dead-football-racist-riot-moscow
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  81. @AP

    I constantly refer (for comparison reasons) to Russia’s events in Kondopoga and Sagra, many may not remember but real “taming” (or “conversion”) of Ramzan Kadyrov happened namely then.
     
    These incidents likely reflect state helplessness as much as they do Russian vitality. Chechens have a reputation of being able to do things to Russians with impunity, so desperate ethnic Russians took things in their own hands because the state refused to help them, the police would let them go.

    In contrast, the state does go after such people in most Western countries. Who fills up western prisons? So there is little need of vigilantism.

    “In contrast, the state does go after such people in most Western countries.”

    That’s not necessarily true anymore. Hardly anybody has been tried, let alone convicted for the 2015/16 sex assaults in Cologne (and there must have been at least dozens, if not hundreds of perpetrators). Or look at how “grooming” by Pakistani gangs has been covered up in Britain…certainly many of the perpetrators there felt above the law for a long time (and may still do so, although there have been some trials by now).
    And at least here in Germany, punishments for violent assault are also often quite low, especially for juveniles (which often includes people until their early 20s). You can kick or beat someone to death for some absurd reason and expect to spend at most a few years in prison…and those from certain violent-prone backgrounds act accordingly.
    I take no position on how good/bad things are in Russia (I just don’t know), but your view of much of Western Europe might be too positive nowadays.

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    • Replies: @Hector_St_Clare
    Not sure why so many people are unaware of this, but in the UK, south Asians are *eleven to twelve times more likely* to commit statutory rape than white English people.

    And as for Austria, did you hear about that migrant who raped a ten year old boy, and then managed to get a retrial by pleading that he didn't speak German, so he didn't know what "no" meant?

    Cultural liberalism in Europe right now really is a national suicide ideology. My hope is that in the last analysis, most people aren't convinced liberals.
    , @AP
    Admittedly - I was thinking more of the USA, where incarceration rates closely match crime and certain groups do not "get away with" crimes that much.
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  82. @German_reader
    Btw news from Austria:
    http://diepresse.com/home/innenpolitik/5207179/Wir-werden-alle-Frauen-bitten-muessen-ein-Kopftuch-zu-tragen-aus?xtor=CS1-15-[Economistn

    President van der Bellen has stated in an interview that Islamophobia is rampant in Austria...and that the day might come when ALL women would have to be asked to wear a headscarf, out of solidarity with Muslim women doing so for religious reasons.
    Remember, Van der Bellen was sold during the election as a nice bourgeois moderate (whereas Norbert Hofer supposedly was some kind of Hitler reincarnation).
    If people don't get it by now, will they ever understand?

    German Reader,

    This sounds utterly horrible. I was so miserable when Hofer lost the second election and by a reasonable margin (the polls had placed him ahead, and he probably legitimately won the first time).

    Europe is going to have to purge itself of islam some day if it wants to save itself. Or at the very least, individual countries are going to have to purge themselves, either as a whole or via some kind of partition. (For that matter, Russia really ought to partition off the North Caucasus). The longer they wait, the bloodier it’s going to be.

    Van der Bellen does sound like a slimy, sleazy little freak. I hope that most Austrian women laugh him off if he ever asks them to wear a headscarf, and respond by removing him at the next election, if not sooner. Allow the headscarf and sooner or later it will become semi-compulsory. My fear is that a lot of them would actually think it’s a good idea. For a certain sort of american SJW, it’s always Selma in 1963, and I think a lot of Europeans probably interpret all history through the lens of the Holocaust.

    The only hope I have here is this: Europe has been saved by foreign invasions before. Everything seemed lost when the Moors had advanced to the middle of France, when the Turks were besieging Vienna, and when the Mongols were on the Hungarian frontier. Europe outlasted its enemies then- I’d credit that to some kind of divine intervention myself, but maybe you don’t- and my hope is that she will do so again.

    And also, let’s put this in context. The FPO went from a fringe party to nearly winning an election. We are making progress. Last year wasn’t the year, but by 2022, who knows what would happen? Same with the National Front. The loathsome Van der Bellen is right about one thing: “Islamophobia” (which I’d call, rational and healthy suspicion of Islam) is on the rise in Austria from an already reasonably high level, and most Austrian Muslims, as I’ve pointed out in the past, say that Islamophobia is intense enough that they would leave if financially compensated. Austria may yet solve its problems through peaceful measures.

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    • Replies: @German_reader

    "Van der Bellen does sound like a slimy, sleazy little freak. I hope that most Austrian women laugh him off if he ever asks them to wear a headscarf, and respond by removing him at the next election, if not sooner. Allow the headscarf and sooner or later it will become semi-compulsory."
     
    Well, there isn't a general ban for headscarves in Germany or Austria...it's not even like in France which, if I understand correctly, bans it for Muslim pupils in state schools (that isn't the case in Germany, and consequently you can see fairly young girls in their early teens or even younger wearing one - and I doubt this is always a result of totally free choice). But of course that's not enough for Islamic activists and you get court cases in which headscarf-wearing Muslim women lay claim to their "right" to wear their Islamic garb as teachers in state schools or as clerks in lawcourts etc., that is as representatives of the state. And they're supported in this by many socialists and even some conservatives who frame this as a human rights and religious liberty issue.
    Van der Bellen is just a typical Green...but if I understand correctly he was sold to voters as some bourgeois moderate, patriotic (but not nationalist!) and not radical at all...we have a similar figure here in Germany, Winfried Kretschmann who's leading the Green-Christian Democrat government in Baden-Württemberg and is portrayed by media as some kindly grandfather figure who loves hiking and is deeply attached to his native region (and regularly prays for Angela Merkel's wellbeing...). Personally I think it's transparent nonsense, but at lot of people seem to fall for it (just like Macron is some young, dynamic "outsider"...).
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  83. @German_reader

    "In contrast, the state does go after such people in most Western countries."
     
    That's not necessarily true anymore. Hardly anybody has been tried, let alone convicted for the 2015/16 sex assaults in Cologne (and there must have been at least dozens, if not hundreds of perpetrators). Or look at how "grooming" by Pakistani gangs has been covered up in Britain...certainly many of the perpetrators there felt above the law for a long time (and may still do so, although there have been some trials by now).
    And at least here in Germany, punishments for violent assault are also often quite low, especially for juveniles (which often includes people until their early 20s). You can kick or beat someone to death for some absurd reason and expect to spend at most a few years in prison...and those from certain violent-prone backgrounds act accordingly.
    I take no position on how good/bad things are in Russia (I just don't know), but your view of much of Western Europe might be too positive nowadays.

    Not sure why so many people are unaware of this, but in the UK, south Asians are *eleven to twelve times more likely* to commit statutory rape than white English people.

    And as for Austria, did you hear about that migrant who raped a ten year old boy, and then managed to get a retrial by pleading that he didn’t speak German, so he didn’t know what “no” meant?

    Cultural liberalism in Europe right now really is a national suicide ideology. My hope is that in the last analysis, most people aren’t convinced liberals.

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    • Replies: @German_reader
    I think I read about that case in Austria, but frankly, by now there have been so many cases of extreme crimes (like "Pensioner murdered by Pakistani asylum seeker in her own home - prosecutors claim he wanted to kill an infidel", "Teen stabbed to death in Hamburg - IS claims responsibility", "Somali asylum seeker rapes two men in care center and kills pensioner", "African men gang-rape nurse in Hamburg" - just a selection of a few cases I can remember, and NOT ONE of them made national news in Germany, it's all kept to local newspapers) committed by recent immigrants, that isn't even remarkable at all anymore. Even the official crime statistics for 2016 show violent crime, including sexual assaults, is on the rise in Germany, with "refugees" being massively overrepresented among the perpetrators...but apparently one just has to accept that.
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  84. @Anatoly Karlin
    (1) University educated people live with other university educated people - other whites, as well as the cream of the immigrant crop.

    This trend is actually intensifying due to the increasing cognitive stratification that Charles Murray has written about.

    (2) Sailer has also written a lot on the class war element of pro-immigration/minority virtue signalling.

    That’s certainly true, I just wonder how supposedly educated people with high IQs can be that ignorant…it’s not like those issues haven’t been discussed to some extent even in mainstream media. It was quite revealing here in Germany a few years ago when Thilo Sarrazin published his book which among other issues dealt with hereditary factors for intelligence. Now Sarrazin probably could be criticised for many details or even for his general tone, but it was quite astonishing (in a bad way) how many supposedly smart people had really weird ideas of the sort “NO hereditary factors at all for intelligence”. There’s just a whole nexus of unexamined ideas that are just taken for granted and defended with the utmost vehemence (if you dissent, you’ll get excommunicated immediately). It’s pretty hard to act against such extreme conformism.

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  85. @AP

    I constantly refer (for comparison reasons) to Russia’s events in Kondopoga and Sagra, many may not remember but real “taming” (or “conversion”) of Ramzan Kadyrov happened namely then.
     
    These incidents likely reflect state helplessness as much as they do Russian vitality. Chechens have a reputation of being able to do things to Russians with impunity, so desperate ethnic Russians took things in their own hands because the state refused to help them, the police would let them go.

    In contrast, the state does go after such people in most Western countries. Who fills up western prisons? So there is little need of vigilantism.

    I wish there were ethnic statistics on this, though as in France, the Russian state is in no hurry to release them.

    Still, the fact that there is now talk of a “civil war” between the vory (mostly Georgians, Russians, other non-Islamic minorities) and the djamaats (Muslim minorities, esp. North Caucasus) in Russia’s prisons does at least indicate that many of them are going to jail rather than getting off scot-free.

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    • Replies: @AP
    I suspect that things have improved since I was last in Russia, in 2013. At that time, everyone was complaining that the state did nothing about Chechen criminals (or worse, punished ethnic Russians who dared to fight back). An anecdote includes, for example, bikers following a police vehicle and escorting an arrested criminal all the way to the police station for fear of the police just letting him go once they are out of sight...

    Kontopoga occurred in 2006. The whole incident captures Rusisan state helplessness:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_ethnic_tensions_in_Kondopoga

    A group of Russian men were eating at the Azeri-owned restaurant, when allegedly, they noticed that the expensive, premium brand vodka bottle the waiter was pouring their drinks from was actually filled with a cheap, low quality spirit. An argument and brief scuffle ensued. The ethnic Russians then left the bar. The barman then called a 'rescue team' of 15 Chechens. This team of hired 'protectors' actually arrived an hour after the Russians involved in the initial fracas had exited, but on arrival, randomly attacked ethnic Russian diners in the restaurant, who hadn't been involved in the original vodka dispute. Armed with baseball bats and knives, they set on the clientele shouting 'allahu akbar!', and in a brutal melee, 2 Russians were killed, 8 seriously injured and 15 mutilated, the injuries ranging from cuts to gouged out eyes. Despite the fact that 3 police vehicles were in the direct vicinity of the restaurant, the police did not intervene. This has led to allegations that the police were being paid off by the Chechen gang.

    Sergey Katanandov, the head of Karelia Republic, told "Izvestia" on September 6 about a gang of Chechens who drove around the town in a Mercedes without number plates 'terrorising locals'. He also related an incident where a Chechen gang beat a local policeman. An ensuing lawsuit by the policeman was dropped, Katanandov hinting that he had been 'paid off' by the gang - others believe fear of reprisals may have been his motivation.[3] It said to be an open secret in Russia that many businesses often operate under the protection of kryshas ("roofs") - that provide protection via the FSB and other state bodies. In Kondopoga, many believe such 'immunity from prosecution' was visibly flaunted by the Chechen gang and the businesses under their protection.
     
    So - Chechens behaved with impunity, terrorizing ethnic Russians while the state did nothing, so locals are forced to respond with vigilantism.
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  86. @AP

    I constantly refer (for comparison reasons) to Russia’s events in Kondopoga and Sagra, many may not remember but real “taming” (or “conversion”) of Ramzan Kadyrov happened namely then.
     
    These incidents likely reflect state helplessness as much as they do Russian vitality. Chechens have a reputation of being able to do things to Russians with impunity, so desperate ethnic Russians took things in their own hands because the state refused to help them, the police would let them go.

    In contrast, the state does go after such people in most Western countries. Who fills up western prisons? So there is little need of vigilantism.

    These incidents likely reflect state helplessness as much as they do Russian vitality.

    Yeah, like the Russian Union of Veterans openly inviting Kadyrov and his people to Kondopoga–sounds really “helpless” to me. As per Sagra–I don’t know, shooting a bunch of a-holes and making them run. Maybe we are talking about some other events. no? Let’s not invent things which were not there, including whole “Caucasus” diaspora simply disappearing from localities I mentioned. It is also remarkable how all those Caucasus “warriors” disappear from the streets on occasions of Paratrooper Day, Border Guards Day, Navy Day celebrations.

    As per state–it depends greatly on particular locations. In the end, the guy who killed and wounded a bunch of Gypsy thugs recently got acquitted completely by the court. In the end, the existence of real ethnic mafias in, say, Moscow was a result of Luzhkov’s rather “liberal” attitudes to them, the same goes to a number of other locations. Russian state only recently began to regain some departure from 1990s and it will take some time before it becomes more or less effective. Events on Manezhnaya (as an example) were allowed to happen and guess what? After that inter-ethnic relations improved. So, yes, vitality is there.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/dec/13/two-dead-football-racist-riot-moscow

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    • Replies: @AP

    Yeah, like the Russian Union of Veterans openly inviting Kadyrov and his people to Kondopoga–sounds really “helpless” to me.
     
    See my other post. Kontopoga highlights Russian state helplessness and Russian vigilantism.

    .It is also remarkable how all those Caucasus “warriors” disappear from the streets on occasions of Paratrooper Day, Border Guards Day, Navy Day celebrations.
     
    And I suspect not many Muslim fanatics show at Pegida or National Front rallies.

    Russian state only recently began to regain some departure from 1990s
     
    This is, of course, a good thing, but the 1990s ended 17 years ago. Why so slow?
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  87. @Talha
    Hey G_R,

    many of those converts don’t convert because of inner conviction
     
    Historically, some convert due to conviction, some for social or economic reasons, some to fit in, some because they want to get with that honey from the Maghreb - human beings are rarely predictable or black and white. If I remember correctly, the Golden Horde became Muslim simply because their chieftains did and that's what you did if you were a Mongol and your chief asked it of you.

    From the materialist framework - conviction presupposes a 'ghost in the machine' which doesn't exist. Faith (sincere or insincere) is an illusion - the entire matter boils down to adaptation strategy and survival instinct - the same as when Europe went Christian or post-Christian.

    I definitely share your concern about the bad manners that many Muslims show in Western countries - that is not the right way to be.

    I can see your apprehension about a growing Muslim presence. I shudder thinking about a society or planet devoid of faith so I can empathize with what you may be feeling. I think that is simply natural since each side's vision of society is different. As I've said before, I think healthy distance between people holding divergent views is a good thing - good fences make good neighbors. I'm personally a fan of the enclave/millet model.

    Peace.

    Talha,

    I’m not materialist (I’m Christian of a heterodox sort) and neither are you, so I’m not sure why either you or I would find a ‘materialist viewpoint’ convincing. Why are you even making that argument then? Conversion out of genuine faith is entirely different than conversion for social reasons.

    Like German Reader, I think conversion of Europeans en masse would be a horrible prospect, both because I think Islam is false at the level of theology, and because I disagree with the kind of social and cultural values that it promotes, specifically stuff like you mention (larger families, more patriarchal norms, etc.). I actively don’t want a Muslim society or a Muslim world and it makes me shudder to exactly the same degree that a society without faith makes you shudder. My hope is that the sexual revolution eventually makes enough headway in Muslim societies- as it has in Latin America, Asia, and the developed world- to result in the consequent drop in Muslim fertility.

    I care about Europe maintaining both its ethno-racial and its religious identities: they’re both important to me. I don’t want a Europe where blonde hair and blue eyes have become rare curiosities, even if everyone was Christian or agnostic, but I also don’t want an Europe full of blue eyed Muslims.

    “Healthy distance between people holding divergent views” is certainly a very good thing, but surely you realize that mass migration, as currently constituted, is destructive of exactly that vision? You could maybe get there by partitioning European borders so that you have self contained Muslim nations within Europe. I would be certainly open to something like that: it would be more humane to French Muslims to let them keep part of ‘their’ country rather than send them back to Algeria. But the most meaningful, enforceable and significant kind of community today is the national community, so if you want a world of distinct and divergent visions of society, they really need to coincide with national boundaries.

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    • Replies: @Andrei Martyanov

    You could maybe get there by partitioning European borders so that you have self contained Muslim nations within Europe
     
    It is a common knowledge today that Marseilles is basically not a French city anymore. It is not going to be regained.
    , @Daniel Chieh
    Well, if Christians can't seem to maintain norms that allow them to survive, and indeed can't seem to elect someone to allow them to survive, then its perhaps nature taking its course. I don't like this at all - but I'm getting really pessimistic these days.

    I suppose an Islamic world is better than an atheist world. I'll rather live without a hand than without a leg, you?
    , @Talha
    Hey Hector,

    Why are you even making that argument then?
     
    For the benefit of others. I find when I am conversing with materialists, they often reference something outside their framework. I'm simply saying (not that I believe it) that from a materialist standpoint, this is simply survival of the fittest working itself out - details about conviction being a spiritual issue which has no place at the table.

    My hope is that the sexual revolution eventually makes enough headway in Muslim societies
     
    I would say this is not likely - the religion places a great deal of emphasis on modesty and public sexual norms - it is built into the framework at an immutable level. The regions in the Muslim world where this did take root (for instance, a traveler once reported the ubiquity of pornography in parts of Turkey in the 90's) and the base level of the population; they are also in demographic decline. Drinking the post-modern koolaid has the same effect on all people. They are simply being replaced by the more religious and prolific population:
    http://www.unz.com/jderbyshire/demography-vs-peak-reason-in-turkey-and-the-west/

    There is a serious problem in the West if this is the road at the end of the sexual revolution:
    http://www.rooshv.com/the-documentary-hot-girls-wanted-shows-the-destructiveness-of-porn

    I care about Europe maintaining both its ethno-racial and its religious identities
     
    I believe the two are intertwined; a Europe (or any people) that wish to maintain its ethno-racial identity will be able to do so with a religious and spiritual framework. Question: do you see a revival of traditional Christianity in the future? One that will restore healthy families that have replacement-level children? If not, the writing is on the wall. In my local community, the Bosnians are some of the most healthy and prolific families (blond hair, green/blue eyes abound). I don't know, maybe the Orthodox church will sweep up followers in the West as the Latins empty their pews.

    surely you realize that mass migration
     
    I'm not a proponent of mass immigration. The Muslim countries would never accept mass immigration that would destabilize them - I see no need for the same to be asked of Europe. In fact, most Europeans probably don't want mass migration of other Europeans; I doubt the French would think it's a great thing if millions of Irish or Austrians or Greeks settled into their country.

    You could maybe get there by partitioning European borders so that you have self contained Muslim nations within Europe.
     
    This is basically the millet system of the Ottomans (inherited and modified from earlier rulers) and this was even done by the Hapsburgs when they inherited Muslim lands as the Ottomans vacated. They were able to find a workable solution where tension was relieved to the point where they even provided elite soldiers for the empire (just as many of them had served courageously under the Ottomans):
    “The Bosniaks, who were seen as an elite group within the k.u.k. Army and who – with their strange uniform and fez headgear – attracted much attention from the various formations of the Austro-Hungarian Army, are the focus of the book....Feared by their enemies, respected by their comrades for their fighting spirit, the Bosnian-Herzegovinian troops were a reliable component of the Austro-Hungarian Army until the end of the First World War.”

    https://www.militaria.at/Book.aspx?book=9009000&Language=en

    Hapsburgs were also wise to adapt a millet-like system for their Bosnians to make things run smoothly:
    “As for legal jurisdiction, allowance was made for the specific situation. As citizens of the Habsburg Monarchy, Bosnian Muslims were subject to Austro-Hungarian civil law, but questions of family and inheritance law were left to the sharia. The Muslim legal scholars were not only appointed and paid by the Austro-Hungarian administration but also constrained to cooperate with the civil jurisdiction, also in terms of court procedure.”

    http://ww1.habsburger.net/en/chapters/sharia-under-double-eagle-austria-hungary-and-bosnian-muslims

    I don't think France would need to separate out parts as different countries, but could have parts as a semi-autonomous regions that have local jurisdiction and report to the federal government with an explicit agreement that any terrorism coming out of those areas will not be tolerated else the local authorities would be replaced. Trust me, local Muslim governments would take care of the problem with fairly harsh measures if the federal government would look the other way as to how they did it. We have similar frameworks with Native American tribes in the US and Russia has done a reasonably decent job with its Muslim areas.

    Peace.
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  88. @for-the-record
    Fillon had an (apparently) rather strong position on immigration:

    https://www.fillon2017.fr/projet/immigration/
     
    He was also "pro" Russian and less "extreme" economically than Le Pen who proposes reducing the retirement age to 60 and maintaining the 35-hour work week.

    Prior to his "arranged" implosion, Fillon was the overwhelming favorite to win the election, which is presumably why the decision to implode him was taken. Le Pen never had a chance and, I am convinced, will never have a chance. For better or worse the FN is simply too "toxic" among "educated" French. This I know first hand, as I have 2 sons who were educated in France and for all intents and purposes are French (one even has a French passport).

    That seems reasonable. From what I’ve read the way Fillon’s little scandal (probably no worse than what most French politicians do) was brought to light and investigated was very dubious, with obvious interference from the Élysée and some special court that normally wouldn’t have investigated the case.
    And maybe you’re right and FN just is too toxic even for many patriotic French. Maybe non-French don’t understand all the historical baggage that’s playing a role here (it suppose it’s growing less important now, but as I understand it Vichy, and later the Algerian war, left some lasting divisions in French society).

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  89. @Talha
    Hey G_R,

    many of those converts don’t convert because of inner conviction
     
    Historically, some convert due to conviction, some for social or economic reasons, some to fit in, some because they want to get with that honey from the Maghreb - human beings are rarely predictable or black and white. If I remember correctly, the Golden Horde became Muslim simply because their chieftains did and that's what you did if you were a Mongol and your chief asked it of you.

    From the materialist framework - conviction presupposes a 'ghost in the machine' which doesn't exist. Faith (sincere or insincere) is an illusion - the entire matter boils down to adaptation strategy and survival instinct - the same as when Europe went Christian or post-Christian.

    I definitely share your concern about the bad manners that many Muslims show in Western countries - that is not the right way to be.

    I can see your apprehension about a growing Muslim presence. I shudder thinking about a society or planet devoid of faith so I can empathize with what you may be feeling. I think that is simply natural since each side's vision of society is different. As I've said before, I think healthy distance between people holding divergent views is a good thing - good fences make good neighbors. I'm personally a fan of the enclave/millet model.

    Peace.

    I shudder thinking about a society or planet devoid of faith so I can empathize with what you may be feeling.

    I don’t think you need to worry about that. I’m not religious now, but even I had some vague belief in God when I was younger. Atheism isn’t a very comforting world view when you think about it, and most people will probably always rather seek meaning in some form of religious faith.

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    • Agree: reiner Tor
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  90. @anon
    i think the simple explanation is
    - the trad Left are economically Left and socially Left
    - the trad Right are economically Right and socially Right
    - the globalist uniparty are economically Right and socially Left
    - nationalist parties tend to become economically Left (ish) and socially Right

    so nationalist and globalist are irreconcilable opposites but to get the others nationalists need to
    - persuade the Left on social issues
    - persuade the Right on economic issues
    both of these are difficult but not impossible

    apart from persuasion in those areas if people on the trad Right and trad Left feel the situation is dangerous enough they'll trade security for only getting half of what they want

    Good analysis. I’m not sure however how much of a traditional Left still actually exists in Western Europe. And their views on social issues are pretty much contradictory in my opinion…once the Left after all did stand for secularism, women’s rights etc. Hard to see how their current enthusiasm for Islam (which nowadays seems to be the standard among most socialists) can be reconciled with this.

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    • Replies: @anon

    I’m not sure however how much of a traditional Left still actually exists in Western Europe
     
    yes, the Left now is SJWs and immigrants hence the poor showing of the Socialist parties except in specific areas. however i don't think the ex trad Left voters have fully made the transition to nationalist yet so there's room for improvement there imo

    that plus GOPe type voters getting scared enough about the future to vote for security first
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  91. @Dan Hayes
    Andrei Martyanov,

    Elena Chudinova's "The Mosque of Notre Dame De Paris" is a very riveting dystopian work although I'm afraid it hasn't got the attention is deserves.

    Elena Chudinova’s “The Mosque of Notre Dame De Paris” is a very riveting dystopian work although I’m afraid it hasn’t got the attention is deserves.

    Western “intellectuals” prefer Houellebecq’s derivative, plus Chudinova is too “violent” and tactically and operationally realistic about what is already beginning to happen in Europe. Nah, ideas of some pseudo-intellectual French cuck in justifying betrayal of his own culture, evidently, are more interesting for them. While Europe “intellectually debates” Houellebecq’s book, they forgot that they better start learning how to shoot, organize patrols, block posts etc. Daria Aslamova (a famous Russian reporter) recently made a huge expose on this:

    https://www.thelocal.fr/20161104/french-look-to-arm-themselves-after-attacks

    She stayed with older French couple near Calais, those people are basically ready to die in their house (and shop) and bought Mosin’s gun, but those people are not majority: Europe today is basically a concentration of urban metrosexual wussies who tremble at the idea of having a gun.

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  92. ussr andy says:

    anyone noticed how r/jokes is full of “page 2 of google search results” jokes? (what’s the best place to hide a dead body etc.)
    It used to be funny (there was an xkcd about it) but after the “fake news” hysteria I can’t help but think this could be the long arm of the State Dept. Makes Zuckerberg’s and what’s-the-google-guy’s-name job so much easier if people just don’t look. Seriously, I’m this paranoid right now.

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  93. AP says:
    @German_reader

    "In contrast, the state does go after such people in most Western countries."
     
    That's not necessarily true anymore. Hardly anybody has been tried, let alone convicted for the 2015/16 sex assaults in Cologne (and there must have been at least dozens, if not hundreds of perpetrators). Or look at how "grooming" by Pakistani gangs has been covered up in Britain...certainly many of the perpetrators there felt above the law for a long time (and may still do so, although there have been some trials by now).
    And at least here in Germany, punishments for violent assault are also often quite low, especially for juveniles (which often includes people until their early 20s). You can kick or beat someone to death for some absurd reason and expect to spend at most a few years in prison...and those from certain violent-prone backgrounds act accordingly.
    I take no position on how good/bad things are in Russia (I just don't know), but your view of much of Western Europe might be too positive nowadays.

    Admittedly – I was thinking more of the USA, where incarceration rates closely match crime and certain groups do not “get away with” crimes that much.

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  94. @Hector_St_Clare
    Talha,

    I'm not materialist (I'm Christian of a heterodox sort) and neither are you, so I'm not sure why either you or I would find a 'materialist viewpoint' convincing. Why are you even making that argument then? Conversion out of genuine faith is entirely different than conversion for social reasons.

    Like German Reader, I think conversion of Europeans en masse would be a horrible prospect, both because I think Islam is false at the level of theology, and because I disagree with the kind of social and cultural values that it promotes, specifically stuff like you mention (larger families, more patriarchal norms, etc.). I actively don't want a Muslim society or a Muslim world and it makes me shudder to exactly the same degree that a society without faith makes you shudder. My hope is that the sexual revolution eventually makes enough headway in Muslim societies- as it has in Latin America, Asia, and the developed world- to result in the consequent drop in Muslim fertility.

    I care about Europe maintaining both its ethno-racial and its religious identities: they're both important to me. I don't want a Europe where blonde hair and blue eyes have become rare curiosities, even if everyone was Christian or agnostic, but I also don't want an Europe full of blue eyed Muslims.

    "Healthy distance between people holding divergent views" is certainly a very good thing, but surely you realize that mass migration, as currently constituted, is destructive of exactly that vision? You could maybe get there by partitioning European borders so that you have self contained Muslim nations within Europe. I would be certainly open to something like that: it would be more humane to French Muslims to let them keep part of 'their' country rather than send them back to Algeria. But the most meaningful, enforceable and significant kind of community today is the national community, so if you want a world of distinct and divergent visions of society, they really need to coincide with national boundaries.

    You could maybe get there by partitioning European borders so that you have self contained Muslim nations within Europe

    It is a common knowledge today that Marseilles is basically not a French city anymore. It is not going to be regained.

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    • Replies: @Anon
    Can Marseilles be reclaimed as an European city?
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  95. AP says:
    @Anatoly Karlin
    I wish there were ethnic statistics on this, though as in France, the Russian state is in no hurry to release them.

    Still, the fact that there is now talk of a "civil war" between the vory (mostly Georgians, Russians, other non-Islamic minorities) and the djamaats (Muslim minorities, esp. North Caucasus) in Russia's prisons does at least indicate that many of them are going to jail rather than getting off scot-free.

    I suspect that things have improved since I was last in Russia, in 2013. At that time, everyone was complaining that the state did nothing about Chechen criminals (or worse, punished ethnic Russians who dared to fight back). An anecdote includes, for example, bikers following a police vehicle and escorting an arrested criminal all the way to the police station for fear of the police just letting him go once they are out of sight…

    Kontopoga occurred in 2006. The whole incident captures Rusisan state helplessness:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_ethnic_tensions_in_Kondopoga

    A group of Russian men were eating at the Azeri-owned restaurant, when allegedly, they noticed that the expensive, premium brand vodka bottle the waiter was pouring their drinks from was actually filled with a cheap, low quality spirit. An argument and brief scuffle ensued. The ethnic Russians then left the bar. The barman then called a ‘rescue team’ of 15 Chechens. This team of hired ‘protectors’ actually arrived an hour after the Russians involved in the initial fracas had exited, but on arrival, randomly attacked ethnic Russian diners in the restaurant, who hadn’t been involved in the original vodka dispute. Armed with baseball bats and knives, they set on the clientele shouting ‘allahu akbar!’, and in a brutal melee, 2 Russians were killed, 8 seriously injured and 15 mutilated, the injuries ranging from cuts to gouged out eyes. Despite the fact that 3 police vehicles were in the direct vicinity of the restaurant, the police did not intervene. This has led to allegations that the police were being paid off by the Chechen gang.

    Sergey Katanandov, the head of Karelia Republic, told “Izvestia” on September 6 about a gang of Chechens who drove around the town in a Mercedes without number plates ‘terrorising locals’. He also related an incident where a Chechen gang beat a local policeman. An ensuing lawsuit by the policeman was dropped, Katanandov hinting that he had been ‘paid off’ by the gang – others believe fear of reprisals may have been his motivation.[3] It said to be an open secret in Russia that many businesses often operate under the protection of kryshas (“roofs”) – that provide protection via the FSB and other state bodies. In Kondopoga, many believe such ‘immunity from prosecution’ was visibly flaunted by the Chechen gang and the businesses under their protection.

    So – Chechens behaved with impunity, terrorizing ethnic Russians while the state did nothing, so locals are forced to respond with vigilantism.

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    • Replies: @Andrei Martyanov

    so locals are forced to respond with vigilantism.
     
    But that is the whole point of this exchange. State may or may not be functional, but people still do organize. Today it is even more so. Compare this to Europe, where men (such as in Holland) wear skirts to "support" their women.
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  96. @Hector_St_Clare
    German Reader,

    This sounds utterly horrible. I was so miserable when Hofer lost the second election and by a reasonable margin (the polls had placed him ahead, and he probably legitimately won the first time).

    Europe is going to have to purge itself of islam some day if it wants to save itself. Or at the very least, individual countries are going to have to purge themselves, either as a whole or via some kind of partition. (For that matter, Russia really ought to partition off the North Caucasus). The longer they wait, the bloodier it's going to be.

    Van der Bellen does sound like a slimy, sleazy little freak. I hope that most Austrian women laugh him off if he ever asks them to wear a headscarf, and respond by removing him at the next election, if not sooner. Allow the headscarf and sooner or later it will become semi-compulsory. My fear is that a lot of them would actually think it's a good idea. For a certain sort of american SJW, it's always Selma in 1963, and I think a lot of Europeans probably interpret all history through the lens of the Holocaust.

    The only hope I have here is this: Europe has been saved by foreign invasions before. Everything seemed lost when the Moors had advanced to the middle of France, when the Turks were besieging Vienna, and when the Mongols were on the Hungarian frontier. Europe outlasted its enemies then- I'd credit that to some kind of divine intervention myself, but maybe you don't- and my hope is that she will do so again.

    And also, let's put this in context. The FPO went from a fringe party to nearly winning an election. We are making progress. Last year wasn't the year, but by 2022, who knows what would happen? Same with the National Front. The loathsome Van der Bellen is right about one thing: "Islamophobia" (which I'd call, rational and healthy suspicion of Islam) is on the rise in Austria from an already reasonably high level, and most Austrian Muslims, as I've pointed out in the past, say that Islamophobia is intense enough that they would leave if financially compensated. Austria may yet solve its problems through peaceful measures.

    “Van der Bellen does sound like a slimy, sleazy little freak. I hope that most Austrian women laugh him off if he ever asks them to wear a headscarf, and respond by removing him at the next election, if not sooner. Allow the headscarf and sooner or later it will become semi-compulsory.”

    Well, there isn’t a general ban for headscarves in Germany or Austria…it’s not even like in France which, if I understand correctly, bans it for Muslim pupils in state schools (that isn’t the case in Germany, and consequently you can see fairly young girls in their early teens or even younger wearing one – and I doubt this is always a result of totally free choice). But of course that’s not enough for Islamic activists and you get court cases in which headscarf-wearing Muslim women lay claim to their “right” to wear their Islamic garb as teachers in state schools or as clerks in lawcourts etc., that is as representatives of the state. And they’re supported in this by many socialists and even some conservatives who frame this as a human rights and religious liberty issue.
    Van der Bellen is just a typical Green…but if I understand correctly he was sold to voters as some bourgeois moderate, patriotic (but not nationalist!) and not radical at all…we have a similar figure here in Germany, Winfried Kretschmann who’s leading the Green-Christian Democrat government in Baden-Württemberg and is portrayed by media as some kindly grandfather figure who loves hiking and is deeply attached to his native region (and regularly prays for Angela Merkel’s wellbeing…). Personally I think it’s transparent nonsense, but at lot of people seem to fall for it (just like Macron is some young, dynamic “outsider”…).

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    • Replies: @Talha
    Hey G_R,

    who frame this as a human rights and religious liberty issue
     
    I guess German courts will ultimately decide, but isn't it a religious rights issue? I mean if a Islamist government took over Egypt (which may be possible within the next decade or so) - should the Coptic female public school teachers be forced to wear a headscarf or ousted since now they do not represent an "Islamic" government? Why or why not?

    And if the idea is that, it's not German enough to represent the state; well, there are plenty of historic German styles to choose from:
    http://www.costumegallery.com/part3.htm

    Peace.
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  97. AP says:
    @Andrei Martyanov

    These incidents likely reflect state helplessness as much as they do Russian vitality.
     
    Yeah, like the Russian Union of Veterans openly inviting Kadyrov and his people to Kondopoga--sounds really "helpless" to me. As per Sagra--I don't know, shooting a bunch of a-holes and making them run. Maybe we are talking about some other events. no? Let's not invent things which were not there, including whole "Caucasus" diaspora simply disappearing from localities I mentioned. It is also remarkable how all those Caucasus "warriors" disappear from the streets on occasions of Paratrooper Day, Border Guards Day, Navy Day celebrations.

    As per state--it depends greatly on particular locations. In the end, the guy who killed and wounded a bunch of Gypsy thugs recently got acquitted completely by the court. In the end, the existence of real ethnic mafias in, say, Moscow was a result of Luzhkov's rather "liberal" attitudes to them, the same goes to a number of other locations. Russian state only recently began to regain some departure from 1990s and it will take some time before it becomes more or less effective. Events on Manezhnaya (as an example) were allowed to happen and guess what? After that inter-ethnic relations improved. So, yes, vitality is there.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/dec/13/two-dead-football-racist-riot-moscow

    Yeah, like the Russian Union of Veterans openly inviting Kadyrov and his people to Kondopoga–sounds really “helpless” to me.

    See my other post. Kontopoga highlights Russian state helplessness and Russian vigilantism.

    .It is also remarkable how all those Caucasus “warriors” disappear from the streets on occasions of Paratrooper Day, Border Guards Day, Navy Day celebrations.

    And I suspect not many Muslim fanatics show at Pegida or National Front rallies.

    Russian state only recently began to regain some departure from 1990s

    This is, of course, a good thing, but the 1990s ended 17 years ago. Why so slow?

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    • Replies: @Andrei Martyanov

    This is, of course, a good thing, but the 1990s ended 17 years ago. Why so slow?
     
    Realistically, 1990s ended not in 2000, a pronounced break with 1990s "setup" started to manifest itself only around 2007-08. So no, not 17 years, maybe 10 max. Yes, the going could have been faster but this is the topic for separate discussion.

    Kontopoga highlights Russian state helplessness and Russian vigilantism.
     
    As I said earlier, what you call vigilantism is one of the signs of the ability of people to self-organize--a crucial metric when one begins to assess a national will for survival.
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  98. @AP
    I suspect that things have improved since I was last in Russia, in 2013. At that time, everyone was complaining that the state did nothing about Chechen criminals (or worse, punished ethnic Russians who dared to fight back). An anecdote includes, for example, bikers following a police vehicle and escorting an arrested criminal all the way to the police station for fear of the police just letting him go once they are out of sight...

    Kontopoga occurred in 2006. The whole incident captures Rusisan state helplessness:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_ethnic_tensions_in_Kondopoga

    A group of Russian men were eating at the Azeri-owned restaurant, when allegedly, they noticed that the expensive, premium brand vodka bottle the waiter was pouring their drinks from was actually filled with a cheap, low quality spirit. An argument and brief scuffle ensued. The ethnic Russians then left the bar. The barman then called a 'rescue team' of 15 Chechens. This team of hired 'protectors' actually arrived an hour after the Russians involved in the initial fracas had exited, but on arrival, randomly attacked ethnic Russian diners in the restaurant, who hadn't been involved in the original vodka dispute. Armed with baseball bats and knives, they set on the clientele shouting 'allahu akbar!', and in a brutal melee, 2 Russians were killed, 8 seriously injured and 15 mutilated, the injuries ranging from cuts to gouged out eyes. Despite the fact that 3 police vehicles were in the direct vicinity of the restaurant, the police did not intervene. This has led to allegations that the police were being paid off by the Chechen gang.

    Sergey Katanandov, the head of Karelia Republic, told "Izvestia" on September 6 about a gang of Chechens who drove around the town in a Mercedes without number plates 'terrorising locals'. He also related an incident where a Chechen gang beat a local policeman. An ensuing lawsuit by the policeman was dropped, Katanandov hinting that he had been 'paid off' by the gang - others believe fear of reprisals may have been his motivation.[3] It said to be an open secret in Russia that many businesses often operate under the protection of kryshas ("roofs") - that provide protection via the FSB and other state bodies. In Kondopoga, many believe such 'immunity from prosecution' was visibly flaunted by the Chechen gang and the businesses under their protection.
     
    So - Chechens behaved with impunity, terrorizing ethnic Russians while the state did nothing, so locals are forced to respond with vigilantism.

    so locals are forced to respond with vigilantism.

    But that is the whole point of this exchange. State may or may not be functional, but people still do organize. Today it is even more so. Compare this to Europe, where men (such as in Holland) wear skirts to “support” their women.

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    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    I've often felt that chaos favors conservative attitudes, when self-rising organization tends to lean toward natural and traditional methodology. Most people would be conservative if electricity stopped working, for example.

    Men are still men there, whereas men in the rest of the West seem to have become sperm-bearing women.

    But in that case, I suppose those men deserve to cease to be. Despite what the popular consensus says, violence IS a meaningful method of change. And it should be utilized when necessary. And those who would deny themselves such methodology should be with the dodos.

    , @AP

    But that is the whole point of this exchange. State may or may not be functional, but people still do organize
     
    My point was that because the Russian state failed to do its job (indeed, it had been shielding the criminals) people were forced to act out on their own. The acting out was not necessarily simply a function of vitality, but of government negligence. There seem to be fewer mass Russian vigilante actions nowadays. Have Russians gotten "soft," or is the Russian government finally doing its job now?

    In the West (at least the USA) the people rightfully expect the government to deal with the criminals, and it does (check incarceration rates). So they generally don't have to act out on their own.
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  99. @Hector_St_Clare
    Not sure why so many people are unaware of this, but in the UK, south Asians are *eleven to twelve times more likely* to commit statutory rape than white English people.

    And as for Austria, did you hear about that migrant who raped a ten year old boy, and then managed to get a retrial by pleading that he didn't speak German, so he didn't know what "no" meant?

    Cultural liberalism in Europe right now really is a national suicide ideology. My hope is that in the last analysis, most people aren't convinced liberals.

    I think I read about that case in Austria, but frankly, by now there have been so many cases of extreme crimes (like “Pensioner murdered by Pakistani asylum seeker in her own home – prosecutors claim he wanted to kill an infidel”, “Teen stabbed to death in Hamburg – IS claims responsibility”, “Somali asylum seeker rapes two men in care center and kills pensioner”, “African men gang-rape nurse in Hamburg” – just a selection of a few cases I can remember, and NOT ONE of them made national news in Germany, it’s all kept to local newspapers) committed by recent immigrants, that isn’t even remarkable at all anymore. Even the official crime statistics for 2016 show violent crime, including sexual assaults, is on the rise in Germany, with “refugees” being massively overrepresented among the perpetrators…but apparently one just has to accept that.

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  100. @AP

    Yeah, like the Russian Union of Veterans openly inviting Kadyrov and his people to Kondopoga–sounds really “helpless” to me.
     
    See my other post. Kontopoga highlights Russian state helplessness and Russian vigilantism.

    .It is also remarkable how all those Caucasus “warriors” disappear from the streets on occasions of Paratrooper Day, Border Guards Day, Navy Day celebrations.
     
    And I suspect not many Muslim fanatics show at Pegida or National Front rallies.

    Russian state only recently began to regain some departure from 1990s
     
    This is, of course, a good thing, but the 1990s ended 17 years ago. Why so slow?

    This is, of course, a good thing, but the 1990s ended 17 years ago. Why so slow?

    Realistically, 1990s ended not in 2000, a pronounced break with 1990s “setup” started to manifest itself only around 2007-08. So no, not 17 years, maybe 10 max. Yes, the going could have been faster but this is the topic for separate discussion.

    Kontopoga highlights Russian state helplessness and Russian vigilantism.

    As I said earlier, what you call vigilantism is one of the signs of the ability of people to self-organize–a crucial metric when one begins to assess a national will for survival.

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    • Replies: @AP

    "Kontopoga highlights Russian state helplessness and Russian vigilantism."

    As I said earlier, what you call vigilantism is one of the signs of the ability of people to self-organize–a crucial metric when one begins to assess a national will for survival.
     
    I agree. My point is that in countries, unlike Russia until recently, where the state actually catches and punishes criminals, there is less need for self-organization. In such countries the people let the police and the courts do their job, which they do. Such circumstances don't simply a lack of vitality, they simply reflect a functioning state.
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  101. @Andrei Martyanov

    All Soviet people of my generation remember an insanely entertaining East German TV show for kids. It was a team competition with a big race at the end of each episode.
     
    Excellent show: Do as we do, Do with us, Do better than us (Mach mit, machs nach, machs besser...)

    https://youtu.be/UlBNz4QYpZ0

    Yes,yes,yes. I watched it regularly too.

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  102. Anon says: • Disclaimer
    @Andrei Martyanov

    You could maybe get there by partitioning European borders so that you have self contained Muslim nations within Europe
     
    It is a common knowledge today that Marseilles is basically not a French city anymore. It is not going to be regained.

    Can Marseilles be reclaimed as an European city?

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    • Replies: @Andrei Martyanov

    Can Marseilles be reclaimed as an European city?
     
    Not in the current political and ideological setup in France.
    , @Hector_St_Clare
    Anon:

    Probably not. But really in the last analysis, who cares? It's better to have half a country that's still *French*, than a whole country which really isn't.
    , @anon
    of coursh
    , @Anon
    If Valencia, Granada, and Malaga could, why not?
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  103. @Anon
    Can Marseilles be reclaimed as an European city?

    Can Marseilles be reclaimed as an European city?

    Not in the current political and ideological setup in France.

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  104. @Glossy
    It's really hard to overstate how much fun that show was.

    Other East German stuff that we saw: toy train sets. Very well done. I had an incredible East German constuctor set. Lots of gleaming steel planks of every shape that you put together with screws.

    Whenever I hear people say that East German-made stuff was of low quality, I attribute it to Western propaganda. The stuff *I* saw was top-notch.

    Regarding German train toy sets. I had two. Excellent quality. Bought my son China made. Complete garbage

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  105. @Hector_St_Clare
    Talha,

    I'm not materialist (I'm Christian of a heterodox sort) and neither are you, so I'm not sure why either you or I would find a 'materialist viewpoint' convincing. Why are you even making that argument then? Conversion out of genuine faith is entirely different than conversion for social reasons.

    Like German Reader, I think conversion of Europeans en masse would be a horrible prospect, both because I think Islam is false at the level of theology, and because I disagree with the kind of social and cultural values that it promotes, specifically stuff like you mention (larger families, more patriarchal norms, etc.). I actively don't want a Muslim society or a Muslim world and it makes me shudder to exactly the same degree that a society without faith makes you shudder. My hope is that the sexual revolution eventually makes enough headway in Muslim societies- as it has in Latin America, Asia, and the developed world- to result in the consequent drop in Muslim fertility.

    I care about Europe maintaining both its ethno-racial and its religious identities: they're both important to me. I don't want a Europe where blonde hair and blue eyes have become rare curiosities, even if everyone was Christian or agnostic, but I also don't want an Europe full of blue eyed Muslims.

    "Healthy distance between people holding divergent views" is certainly a very good thing, but surely you realize that mass migration, as currently constituted, is destructive of exactly that vision? You could maybe get there by partitioning European borders so that you have self contained Muslim nations within Europe. I would be certainly open to something like that: it would be more humane to French Muslims to let them keep part of 'their' country rather than send them back to Algeria. But the most meaningful, enforceable and significant kind of community today is the national community, so if you want a world of distinct and divergent visions of society, they really need to coincide with national boundaries.

    Well, if Christians can’t seem to maintain norms that allow them to survive, and indeed can’t seem to elect someone to allow them to survive, then its perhaps nature taking its course. I don’t like this at all – but I’m getting really pessimistic these days.

    I suppose an Islamic world is better than an atheist world. I’ll rather live without a hand than without a leg, you?

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  106. @Anon
    Can Marseilles be reclaimed as an European city?

    Anon:

    Probably not. But really in the last analysis, who cares? It’s better to have half a country that’s still *French*, than a whole country which really isn’t.

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  107. Talha says:
    @Hector_St_Clare
    Talha,

    I'm not materialist (I'm Christian of a heterodox sort) and neither are you, so I'm not sure why either you or I would find a 'materialist viewpoint' convincing. Why are you even making that argument then? Conversion out of genuine faith is entirely different than conversion for social reasons.

    Like German Reader, I think conversion of Europeans en masse would be a horrible prospect, both because I think Islam is false at the level of theology, and because I disagree with the kind of social and cultural values that it promotes, specifically stuff like you mention (larger families, more patriarchal norms, etc.). I actively don't want a Muslim society or a Muslim world and it makes me shudder to exactly the same degree that a society without faith makes you shudder. My hope is that the sexual revolution eventually makes enough headway in Muslim societies- as it has in Latin America, Asia, and the developed world- to result in the consequent drop in Muslim fertility.

    I care about Europe maintaining both its ethno-racial and its religious identities: they're both important to me. I don't want a Europe where blonde hair and blue eyes have become rare curiosities, even if everyone was Christian or agnostic, but I also don't want an Europe full of blue eyed Muslims.

    "Healthy distance between people holding divergent views" is certainly a very good thing, but surely you realize that mass migration, as currently constituted, is destructive of exactly that vision? You could maybe get there by partitioning European borders so that you have self contained Muslim nations within Europe. I would be certainly open to something like that: it would be more humane to French Muslims to let them keep part of 'their' country rather than send them back to Algeria. But the most meaningful, enforceable and significant kind of community today is the national community, so if you want a world of distinct and divergent visions of society, they really need to coincide with national boundaries.

    Hey Hector,

    Why are you even making that argument then?

    For the benefit of others. I find when I am conversing with materialists, they often reference something outside their framework. I’m simply saying (not that I believe it) that from a materialist standpoint, this is simply survival of the fittest working itself out – details about conviction being a spiritual issue which has no place at the table.

    My hope is that the sexual revolution eventually makes enough headway in Muslim societies

    I would say this is not likely – the religion places a great deal of emphasis on modesty and public sexual norms – it is built into the framework at an immutable level. The regions in the Muslim world where this did take root (for instance, a traveler once reported the ubiquity of pornography in parts of Turkey in the 90′s) and the base level of the population; they are also in demographic decline. Drinking the post-modern koolaid has the same effect on all people. They are simply being replaced by the more religious and prolific population:

    http://www.unz.com/jderbyshire/demography-vs-peak-reason-in-turkey-and-the-west/

    There is a serious problem in the West if this is the road at the end of the sexual revolution:

    http://www.rooshv.com/the-documentary-hot-girls-wanted-shows-the-destructiveness-of-porn

    I care about Europe maintaining both its ethno-racial and its religious identities

    I believe the two are intertwined; a Europe (or any people) that wish to maintain its ethno-racial identity will be able to do so with a religious and spiritual framework. Question: do you see a revival of traditional Christianity in the future? One that will restore healthy families that have replacement-level children? If not, the writing is on the wall. In my local community, the Bosnians are some of the most healthy and prolific families (blond hair, green/blue eyes abound). I don’t know, maybe the Orthodox church will sweep up followers in the West as the Latins empty their pews.

    surely you realize that mass migration

    I’m not a proponent of mass immigration. The Muslim countries would never accept mass immigration that would destabilize them – I see no need for the same to be asked of Europe. In fact, most Europeans probably don’t want mass migration of other Europeans; I doubt the French would think it’s a great thing if millions of Irish or Austrians or Greeks settled into their country.

    You could maybe get there by partitioning European borders so that you have self contained Muslim nations within Europe.

    This is basically the millet system of the Ottomans (inherited and modified from earlier rulers) and this was even done by the Hapsburgs when they inherited Muslim lands as the Ottomans vacated. They were able to find a workable solution where tension was relieved to the point where they even provided elite soldiers for the empire (just as many of them had served courageously under the Ottomans):
    “The Bosniaks, who were seen as an elite group within the k.u.k. Army and who – with their strange uniform and fez headgear – attracted much attention from the various formations of the Austro-Hungarian Army, are the focus of the book….Feared by their enemies, respected by their comrades for their fighting spirit, the Bosnian-Herzegovinian troops were a reliable component of the Austro-Hungarian Army until the end of the First World War.”

    https://www.militaria.at/Book.aspx?book=9009000&Language=en

    Hapsburgs were also wise to adapt a millet-like system for their Bosnians to make things run smoothly:
    “As for legal jurisdiction, allowance was made for the specific situation. As citizens of the Habsburg Monarchy, Bosnian Muslims were subject to Austro-Hungarian civil law, but questions of family and inheritance law were left to the sharia. The Muslim legal scholars were not only appointed and paid by the Austro-Hungarian administration but also constrained to cooperate with the civil jurisdiction, also in terms of court procedure.”

    http://ww1.habsburger.net/en/chapters/sharia-under-double-eagle-austria-hungary-and-bosnian-muslims

    I don’t think France would need to separate out parts as different countries, but could have parts as a semi-autonomous regions that have local jurisdiction and report to the federal government with an explicit agreement that any terrorism coming out of those areas will not be tolerated else the local authorities would be replaced. Trust me, local Muslim governments would take care of the problem with fairly harsh measures if the federal government would look the other way as to how they did it. We have similar frameworks with Native American tribes in the US and Russia has done a reasonably decent job with its Muslim areas.

    Peace.

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    • Replies: @Hector_St_Clare
    I would say this is not likely – the religion places a great deal of emphasis on modesty and public sexual norms – it is built into the framework at an immutable level.

    Well, we used to think high fertility was built into Catholicism at an immutable level too, but then the sexual revolution conquered Quebec and Latin America. Latin America is heading towards below replacement fertility right now, and Asia has already gotten there. Some Muslim societies have already achieved below replacement fertility (Iran and Lebanon) so I don't think it's out of the question that the rest of the Muslim world will get there too.

    For clarity, the specific aspect of the sexual revolution I'm interested in here is the drop in fertility rates that's associated with thinking about sex as primarily recreational rather than procreational. I don't know (or really care that much) if Muslims become more accepting of premaritial sex, extramarital sex, prostitution or so forth, but I do care very much about fertility dropping in the Muslim and African worlds. I think the world is overpopulated as it is, and that the problem (which is now essentially an African and to some extent South Asian one) is just getting worse from here.

    There is a serious problem in the West if this is the road at the end of the sexual revolution:

    I mean, it's Roosh after all, who has to state it minimally an exteremely unhealthy view of women. More seriously, while I don't particularly approve of pornography, I think the increased sexual openness of women in the Christian or post-Christian worlds is a very good thing. I'm more or less on the free-love, sex-positive side of things (which is yet another area where I strongly disagree with Islam). You claim that increased sexual openness is a problem, but I think this is only going to be convincing to someone who already shares your premises.

    Question: do you see a revival of traditional Christianity in the future? One that will restore healthy families that have replacement-level children? If not, the writing is on the wall. In my local community, the Bosnians are some of the most healthy and prolific families (blond hair, green/blue eyes abound).

    I think there may well be a revival of Christianity in some form, but it will not be "traditional" at least as far as high fertility goes. I see this as a good thing, not a bad thing. As a biologist I'm quite aware that the world is arguably already overpopulated, so I don't see why you want a world or a society that/s more focused on procreation and family. I would much prefer a world with 2 or 3 billion people to the 7 billion we have today, much less the 11 billion expected if African fertility continues on its current trajectory. I think fertility rates in much of Europe are a bit too low- I'd prefer to see TFRs of around 1.6 or 1.7 rather than 1.3- but the bigger problem is that African and Muslim fertility is too high, and we need to combat that with increased contraceptive availability and efforts to convince people of the merits of smaller numbers of children.

    That's nice to hear that your Bosnian neighbors are replicating a beautiful Bosnian phenotype, but statistically Bosnia has one of the lowest fertility rates in the world (1.2) and it's one of only a few countries where Muslim fertility is as low as CHristian.
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  108. anonn says:
    @Philippe Lemoine
    Thanks for the h/t. If anyone is interested, I wrote another blog post in English about this, in which I say very similar things. The National Front won't be able to win until it softens its leftist stance on the economy. Of course, it shouldn't adopt a laissez-faire platform, but it's currently too far to the left on the economy, which makes it difficult to gain support among right-wing voters, which is where its real potential is. In particular, it should stop saying that it wants France to leave the euro, which turns off a lot of people.

    Would she even have gotten to the second round without populist (or “far left”) economics? If she had come out and said, you know, maybe we need to increase the work week, fire a bunch of workers, and cut taxes for the wealthy, her coalition would have been hamstrung from the start. The numbers I saw showed that at least around a tenth of her voters classified themselves as far left. Without populist economics, the second round would have been Melenchon v. the banker parasite. Melenchon, not Le Pen, would get the boost that she’s going to get after the entire apparatus of the state and capital gang up to deny her.

    The future in France, as in the US, is a coalition of the right and the left against the elites.

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  109. Talha says:
    @German_reader

    "Van der Bellen does sound like a slimy, sleazy little freak. I hope that most Austrian women laugh him off if he ever asks them to wear a headscarf, and respond by removing him at the next election, if not sooner. Allow the headscarf and sooner or later it will become semi-compulsory."
     
    Well, there isn't a general ban for headscarves in Germany or Austria...it's not even like in France which, if I understand correctly, bans it for Muslim pupils in state schools (that isn't the case in Germany, and consequently you can see fairly young girls in their early teens or even younger wearing one - and I doubt this is always a result of totally free choice). But of course that's not enough for Islamic activists and you get court cases in which headscarf-wearing Muslim women lay claim to their "right" to wear their Islamic garb as teachers in state schools or as clerks in lawcourts etc., that is as representatives of the state. And they're supported in this by many socialists and even some conservatives who frame this as a human rights and religious liberty issue.
    Van der Bellen is just a typical Green...but if I understand correctly he was sold to voters as some bourgeois moderate, patriotic (but not nationalist!) and not radical at all...we have a similar figure here in Germany, Winfried Kretschmann who's leading the Green-Christian Democrat government in Baden-Württemberg and is portrayed by media as some kindly grandfather figure who loves hiking and is deeply attached to his native region (and regularly prays for Angela Merkel's wellbeing...). Personally I think it's transparent nonsense, but at lot of people seem to fall for it (just like Macron is some young, dynamic "outsider"...).

    Hey G_R,

    who frame this as a human rights and religious liberty issue

    I guess German courts will ultimately decide, but isn’t it a religious rights issue? I mean if a Islamist government took over Egypt (which may be possible within the next decade or so) – should the Coptic female public school teachers be forced to wear a headscarf or ousted since now they do not represent an “Islamic” government? Why or why not?

    And if the idea is that, it’s not German enough to represent the state; well, there are plenty of historic German styles to choose from:

    http://www.costumegallery.com/part3.htm

    Peace.

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    • Replies: @Randal
    The trouble is it is too simplistic to frame it as a purely religious freedom matter. If it were just that then I would be wholeheartedly and enthusiastically on the side of headscarf wearing for those who choose to (or whose families choose for them in the case of minors).

    But it isn't just that, because muslims in western European countries are not longstanding parts of the national scene like Copts in Egypt. They are overwhelmingly recent (the past 2-3 generations) immigrants, and ongoing immigrants, and converts as a result of recent immigration and the presence it has created, and they are in the process of changing the target country forever.

    Defence against that process is in itself arguably a legitimate reason to make things more difficult for muslims in the target countries, including by headscarf bans.

    It isn't ideal. I'd far prefer to have a complete ban on immigration, bar a few individuals admitted on merit, and be able to extend full liberties again to all groups. But I do not live in that world, as my grandparents did.
    , @German_reader
    No, I don't think it's a religious rights issue, imo people who represent the state shouldn't advocate for a certain religious or political world view through their dress or other signs (e.g. I'd also include conspicuous crosses on necklaces and similar things in this), and that includes teachers in public schools. Arguably it could be different in Muslim faith schools (not that I think those, or any other faith schools, are necessarily a good idea since they're contributing to segregation). I know many people will think this unfair and even many Christians and conservatives will disagree with me about this, but frankly, if someone takes his/her religion that seriously that he/she's unwilling for some compromise, he/she just can't have everything. Teaching children isn't a human right and no one said following God's commandments (if you believe in them) should be easy.
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  110. anon says: • Disclaimer
    @German_reader
    Good analysis. I'm not sure however how much of a traditional Left still actually exists in Western Europe. And their views on social issues are pretty much contradictory in my opinion...once the Left after all did stand for secularism, women's rights etc. Hard to see how their current enthusiasm for Islam (which nowadays seems to be the standard among most socialists) can be reconciled with this.

    I’m not sure however how much of a traditional Left still actually exists in Western Europe

    yes, the Left now is SJWs and immigrants hence the poor showing of the Socialist parties except in specific areas. however i don’t think the ex trad Left voters have fully made the transition to nationalist yet so there’s room for improvement there imo

    that plus GOPe type voters getting scared enough about the future to vote for security first

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  111. anon says: • Disclaimer
    @Anon
    Can Marseilles be reclaimed as an European city?

    of coursh

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  112. Randal says:
    @Talha
    Hey G_R,

    who frame this as a human rights and religious liberty issue
     
    I guess German courts will ultimately decide, but isn't it a religious rights issue? I mean if a Islamist government took over Egypt (which may be possible within the next decade or so) - should the Coptic female public school teachers be forced to wear a headscarf or ousted since now they do not represent an "Islamic" government? Why or why not?

    And if the idea is that, it's not German enough to represent the state; well, there are plenty of historic German styles to choose from:
    http://www.costumegallery.com/part3.htm

    Peace.

    The trouble is it is too simplistic to frame it as a purely religious freedom matter. If it were just that then I would be wholeheartedly and enthusiastically on the side of headscarf wearing for those who choose to (or whose families choose for them in the case of minors).

    But it isn’t just that, because muslims in western European countries are not longstanding parts of the national scene like Copts in Egypt. They are overwhelmingly recent (the past 2-3 generations) immigrants, and ongoing immigrants, and converts as a result of recent immigration and the presence it has created, and they are in the process of changing the target country forever.

    Defence against that process is in itself arguably a legitimate reason to make things more difficult for muslims in the target countries, including by headscarf bans.

    It isn’t ideal. I’d far prefer to have a complete ban on immigration, bar a few individuals admitted on merit, and be able to extend full liberties again to all groups. But I do not live in that world, as my grandparents did.

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    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    I'm strongly opposed to blanket headscarf bans, including niqab or burqa bans. I think seeing all those niqabs and burqas is a great redpill for the normie masses.

    But it's probably a good idea to make it difficult for Muslims (especially strongly committed Muslims) to join the government, military, or educate our children.
    , @Talha
    Hey Randal,

    I realize this is a complicated issue. And what of Germany's growing convert population - are they to be considered a foreign import?
    "The number of Germans who have converted to Islam has increased fourfold within one year -- despite the negative perception of Islam among the general public."
    http://www.spiegel.de/international/spiegel/muslim-converts-in-germany-angst-ridden-germans-look-for-answers-and-find-them-in-the-koran-a-460364.html

    http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10404.html

    Defence against that process is in itself arguably a legitimate reason...
     
    Look, I understand where you are coming from. There is great wisdom in how Islam did not grant full enfranchisement to non-Muslim citizens or that we have current constitutional rules in Muslim countries that make it clear the official state religion is Islam and the leader has to be a Muslim.

    Like I've said before, Europe is in a bind - basically a judo hold on itself that only it can release. It wants to be egalitarian to a fault and lecture to the Muslim world over it, but then it has to deal with the demographic reality of its declining population and a growing minority that is confident in its faith (something Europe didn't think was important anymore). Is the future going to be a Muslim citizenry that is second-class, does not have voting rights, etc.? It wouldn't surprise me.

    in the process of changing the target country forever
     
    The Germany of today would shock the Germany of by gone centuries. Human institutions are hardly ever static - history rides on.

    Peace.
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  113. reiner Tor says: • Website
    @Randal
    The trouble is it is too simplistic to frame it as a purely religious freedom matter. If it were just that then I would be wholeheartedly and enthusiastically on the side of headscarf wearing for those who choose to (or whose families choose for them in the case of minors).

    But it isn't just that, because muslims in western European countries are not longstanding parts of the national scene like Copts in Egypt. They are overwhelmingly recent (the past 2-3 generations) immigrants, and ongoing immigrants, and converts as a result of recent immigration and the presence it has created, and they are in the process of changing the target country forever.

    Defence against that process is in itself arguably a legitimate reason to make things more difficult for muslims in the target countries, including by headscarf bans.

    It isn't ideal. I'd far prefer to have a complete ban on immigration, bar a few individuals admitted on merit, and be able to extend full liberties again to all groups. But I do not live in that world, as my grandparents did.

    I’m strongly opposed to blanket headscarf bans, including niqab or burqa bans. I think seeing all those niqabs and burqas is a great redpill for the normie masses.

    But it’s probably a good idea to make it difficult for Muslims (especially strongly committed Muslims) to join the government, military, or educate our children.

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    • Replies: @German_reader
    I agree with that...here in Germany "conservatives" regularly bring up the topic of a general burqa ban. In my opinion that's just for show, to pretend that they're doing something while in fact everything continues as before. And such a ban would be meaningless anyway (it wouldn't strip people with Islamist sympathies of voting rights, or take away welfare benefits from them), and probably wouldn't be enforced (can you imagine Muslim women would be sent to prison for wearing dress like that? I can't, there would be a huge outcry, it would generate lots of sympathy for those affected - who might even intentionally provoke punishment -, and in the end authorities would just give up). It would solve absolutely nothing.
    No, the real issue is to keep people with potentially hostile intentions away from positions of power.
    , @Randal

    I think seeing all those niqabs and burqas is a great redpill for the normie masses.
     
    That is a strong argument, admittedly.
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  114. Talha says:
    @Randal
    The trouble is it is too simplistic to frame it as a purely religious freedom matter. If it were just that then I would be wholeheartedly and enthusiastically on the side of headscarf wearing for those who choose to (or whose families choose for them in the case of minors).

    But it isn't just that, because muslims in western European countries are not longstanding parts of the national scene like Copts in Egypt. They are overwhelmingly recent (the past 2-3 generations) immigrants, and ongoing immigrants, and converts as a result of recent immigration and the presence it has created, and they are in the process of changing the target country forever.

    Defence against that process is in itself arguably a legitimate reason to make things more difficult for muslims in the target countries, including by headscarf bans.

    It isn't ideal. I'd far prefer to have a complete ban on immigration, bar a few individuals admitted on merit, and be able to extend full liberties again to all groups. But I do not live in that world, as my grandparents did.

    Hey Randal,

    I realize this is a complicated issue. And what of Germany’s growing convert population – are they to be considered a foreign import?
    “The number of Germans who have converted to Islam has increased fourfold within one year — despite the negative perception of Islam among the general public.”

    http://www.spiegel.de/international/spiegel/muslim-converts-in-germany-angst-ridden-germans-look-for-answers-and-find-them-in-the-koran-a-460364.html

    http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10404.html

    Defence against that process is in itself arguably a legitimate reason…

    Look, I understand where you are coming from. There is great wisdom in how Islam did not grant full enfranchisement to non-Muslim citizens or that we have current constitutional rules in Muslim countries that make it clear the official state religion is Islam and the leader has to be a Muslim.

    Like I’ve said before, Europe is in a bind – basically a judo hold on itself that only it can release. It wants to be egalitarian to a fault and lecture to the Muslim world over it, but then it has to deal with the demographic reality of its declining population and a growing minority that is confident in its faith (something Europe didn’t think was important anymore). Is the future going to be a Muslim citizenry that is second-class, does not have voting rights, etc.? It wouldn’t surprise me.

    in the process of changing the target country forever

    The Germany of today would shock the Germany of by gone centuries. Human institutions are hardly ever static – history rides on.

    Peace.

    Read More
    • Replies: @iffen
    “The number of Germans who have converted to Islam has increased fourfold within one year

    Nordic princesses for everyone!
    , @Randal

    And what of Germany’s growing convert population – are they to be considered a foreign import?
     
    Another consequence of the evil policy of mass immigration.

    Like I’ve said before, Europe is in a bind – basically a judo hold on itself that only it can release. It wants to be egalitarian to a fault and lecture to the Muslim world over it, but then it has to deal with the demographic reality of its declining population and a growing minority that is confident in its faith (something Europe didn’t think was important anymore). Is the future going to be a Muslim citizenry that is second-class, does not have voting rights, etc.? It wouldn’t surprise me.
     
    Indeed, there are no plausible good outcomes. To coin a phrase, rivers of blood will likely be shed thanks to the crime committed by the mass immigration advocates and enablers. This is one of those cases where hatred is imo justified. I never hate people for membership of a group, even if the group is an enemy of my group. The only justification for hating someone is something harmful they individually have done. For instance, I do hate Blair and Cameron for the wars of aggression they have gratuitously implicated my country in (though whether that hatred is good for me or for anything is admittedly questionable).

    As for demographic decline, that's not even a particularly bad thing in itself, provided it is not allowed to trigger inflows of foreigners. It causes economic issue that need to be managed, but so does population growth.

    The Germany of today would shock the Germany of by gone centuries. Human institutions are hardly ever static – history rides on.
     
    The fact of impermanence is no excuse for harmful actions.
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  115. @Talha
    Hey Hector,

    Why are you even making that argument then?
     
    For the benefit of others. I find when I am conversing with materialists, they often reference something outside their framework. I'm simply saying (not that I believe it) that from a materialist standpoint, this is simply survival of the fittest working itself out - details about conviction being a spiritual issue which has no place at the table.

    My hope is that the sexual revolution eventually makes enough headway in Muslim societies
     
    I would say this is not likely - the religion places a great deal of emphasis on modesty and public sexual norms - it is built into the framework at an immutable level. The regions in the Muslim world where this did take root (for instance, a traveler once reported the ubiquity of pornography in parts of Turkey in the 90's) and the base level of the population; they are also in demographic decline. Drinking the post-modern koolaid has the same effect on all people. They are simply being replaced by the more religious and prolific population:
    http://www.unz.com/jderbyshire/demography-vs-peak-reason-in-turkey-and-the-west/

    There is a serious problem in the West if this is the road at the end of the sexual revolution:
    http://www.rooshv.com/the-documentary-hot-girls-wanted-shows-the-destructiveness-of-porn

    I care about Europe maintaining both its ethno-racial and its religious identities
     
    I believe the two are intertwined; a Europe (or any people) that wish to maintain its ethno-racial identity will be able to do so with a religious and spiritual framework. Question: do you see a revival of traditional Christianity in the future? One that will restore healthy families that have replacement-level children? If not, the writing is on the wall. In my local community, the Bosnians are some of the most healthy and prolific families (blond hair, green/blue eyes abound). I don't know, maybe the Orthodox church will sweep up followers in the West as the Latins empty their pews.

    surely you realize that mass migration
     
    I'm not a proponent of mass immigration. The Muslim countries would never accept mass immigration that would destabilize them - I see no need for the same to be asked of Europe. In fact, most Europeans probably don't want mass migration of other Europeans; I doubt the French would think it's a great thing if millions of Irish or Austrians or Greeks settled into their country.

    You could maybe get there by partitioning European borders so that you have self contained Muslim nations within Europe.
     
    This is basically the millet system of the Ottomans (inherited and modified from earlier rulers) and this was even done by the Hapsburgs when they inherited Muslim lands as the Ottomans vacated. They were able to find a workable solution where tension was relieved to the point where they even provided elite soldiers for the empire (just as many of them had served courageously under the Ottomans):
    “The Bosniaks, who were seen as an elite group within the k.u.k. Army and who – with their strange uniform and fez headgear – attracted much attention from the various formations of the Austro-Hungarian Army, are the focus of the book....Feared by their enemies, respected by their comrades for their fighting spirit, the Bosnian-Herzegovinian troops were a reliable component of the Austro-Hungarian Army until the end of the First World War.”

    https://www.militaria.at/Book.aspx?book=9009000&Language=en

    Hapsburgs were also wise to adapt a millet-like system for their Bosnians to make things run smoothly:
    “As for legal jurisdiction, allowance was made for the specific situation. As citizens of the Habsburg Monarchy, Bosnian Muslims were subject to Austro-Hungarian civil law, but questions of family and inheritance law were left to the sharia. The Muslim legal scholars were not only appointed and paid by the Austro-Hungarian administration but also constrained to cooperate with the civil jurisdiction, also in terms of court procedure.”

    http://ww1.habsburger.net/en/chapters/sharia-under-double-eagle-austria-hungary-and-bosnian-muslims

    I don't think France would need to separate out parts as different countries, but could have parts as a semi-autonomous regions that have local jurisdiction and report to the federal government with an explicit agreement that any terrorism coming out of those areas will not be tolerated else the local authorities would be replaced. Trust me, local Muslim governments would take care of the problem with fairly harsh measures if the federal government would look the other way as to how they did it. We have similar frameworks with Native American tribes in the US and Russia has done a reasonably decent job with its Muslim areas.

    Peace.

    I would say this is not likely – the religion places a great deal of emphasis on modesty and public sexual norms – it is built into the framework at an immutable level.

    Well, we used to think high fertility was built into Catholicism at an immutable level too, but then the sexual revolution conquered Quebec and Latin America. Latin America is heading towards below replacement fertility right now, and Asia has already gotten there. Some Muslim societies have already achieved below replacement fertility (Iran and Lebanon) so I don’t think it’s out of the question that the rest of the Muslim world will get there too.

    For clarity, the specific aspect of the sexual revolution I’m interested in here is the drop in fertility rates that’s associated with thinking about sex as primarily recreational rather than procreational. I don’t know (or really care that much) if Muslims become more accepting of premaritial sex, extramarital sex, prostitution or so forth, but I do care very much about fertility dropping in the Muslim and African worlds. I think the world is overpopulated as it is, and that the problem (which is now essentially an African and to some extent South Asian one) is just getting worse from here.

    There is a serious problem in the West if this is the road at the end of the sexual revolution:

    I mean, it’s Roosh after all, who has to state it minimally an exteremely unhealthy view of women. More seriously, while I don’t particularly approve of pornography, I think the increased sexual openness of women in the Christian or post-Christian worlds is a very good thing. I’m more or less on the free-love, sex-positive side of things (which is yet another area where I strongly disagree with Islam). You claim that increased sexual openness is a problem, but I think this is only going to be convincing to someone who already shares your premises.

    Question: do you see a revival of traditional Christianity in the future? One that will restore healthy families that have replacement-level children? If not, the writing is on the wall. In my local community, the Bosnians are some of the most healthy and prolific families (blond hair, green/blue eyes abound).

    I think there may well be a revival of Christianity in some form, but it will not be “traditional” at least as far as high fertility goes. I see this as a good thing, not a bad thing. As a biologist I’m quite aware that the world is arguably already overpopulated, so I don’t see why you want a world or a society that/s more focused on procreation and family. I would much prefer a world with 2 or 3 billion people to the 7 billion we have today, much less the 11 billion expected if African fertility continues on its current trajectory. I think fertility rates in much of Europe are a bit too low- I’d prefer to see TFRs of around 1.6 or 1.7 rather than 1.3- but the bigger problem is that African and Muslim fertility is too high, and we need to combat that with increased contraceptive availability and efforts to convince people of the merits of smaller numbers of children.

    That’s nice to hear that your Bosnian neighbors are replicating a beautiful Bosnian phenotype, but statistically Bosnia has one of the lowest fertility rates in the world (1.2) and it’s one of only a few countries where Muslim fertility is as low as CHristian.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    Hey Hector,

    Nice to hear you are a biologist.

    I don’t think it’s out of the question that the rest of the Muslim world will get there too.
     
    I don't think so either - it's basically a thinning of the herd by self-inflicted choices.

    I do care very much about fertility dropping in the Muslim and African worlds
     
    I have no problem with the world's population decreasing though I think the world could easily support five times our current population - it all just depends on the level of resource depletion. I'm sure you know that an urban dweller of Paris likely consumes energy at the rate of probably half or more of a small village in the Sahel area of Mauritania.

    You claim that increased sexual openness is a problem, but I think this is only going to be convincing to someone who already shares your premises.
     
    It doesn't have to convince anybody - the sexually open societies that lead to a decline in the family are writing the proof. For instance, a growing homosexual population in any people leads to genetic dead-ends. And that's all fine if people don't think dropping fertility rates are bad - in fact, sexual promiscuity is a good thing to promote in that instance if that is your goal - hell, if I was the Earth and wanted to get rid of the biggest resource drains, I'd do exactly that:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_energy_consumption_per_capita

    The only question is, can you pull the populations out of the nosedive once you've started. My guess? Yes, but the populations that arise out of the process will not have congruent values as the once being selected out.

    it’s one of only a few countries where Muslim fertility is as low as CHristian.
     
    Yup - again, the ones that I'm around are religious/traditional families that attend weekly spiritual gatherings with other families. The post-modern Bosnians are in the process of eliminating themselves - they will be replaced by the religious folk that look like them.

    Like I have said, if you want to preserve the ethnic/racial aspect - then you cannot diverge enormously from the paradigms that preserved it for centuries and centuries and an integral part of that was traditional religion. As Toynbee stated; man's nature abhors a spiritual vacuum.

    Peace.
    , @Talha
    And yes, I agree Roosh has an unhealthy (possibly bi-polar) view of women. For instance, his claim to fame is teaching men how to get into womens' pants, but then he complains about degeneracy in women. However, that blog post had a lot of excellent points in how ubiquitous pornography and decadence has become.

    Peace.
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  116. @Andrei Martyanov

    so locals are forced to respond with vigilantism.
     
    But that is the whole point of this exchange. State may or may not be functional, but people still do organize. Today it is even more so. Compare this to Europe, where men (such as in Holland) wear skirts to "support" their women.

    I’ve often felt that chaos favors conservative attitudes, when self-rising organization tends to lean toward natural and traditional methodology. Most people would be conservative if electricity stopped working, for example.

    Men are still men there, whereas men in the rest of the West seem to have become sperm-bearing women.

    But in that case, I suppose those men deserve to cease to be. Despite what the popular consensus says, violence IS a meaningful method of change. And it should be utilized when necessary. And those who would deny themselves such methodology should be with the dodos.

    Read More
    • Agree: Andrei Martyanov
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  117. iffen says:
    @Talha
    Hey Randal,

    I realize this is a complicated issue. And what of Germany's growing convert population - are they to be considered a foreign import?
    "The number of Germans who have converted to Islam has increased fourfold within one year -- despite the negative perception of Islam among the general public."
    http://www.spiegel.de/international/spiegel/muslim-converts-in-germany-angst-ridden-germans-look-for-answers-and-find-them-in-the-koran-a-460364.html

    http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10404.html

    Defence against that process is in itself arguably a legitimate reason...
     
    Look, I understand where you are coming from. There is great wisdom in how Islam did not grant full enfranchisement to non-Muslim citizens or that we have current constitutional rules in Muslim countries that make it clear the official state religion is Islam and the leader has to be a Muslim.

    Like I've said before, Europe is in a bind - basically a judo hold on itself that only it can release. It wants to be egalitarian to a fault and lecture to the Muslim world over it, but then it has to deal with the demographic reality of its declining population and a growing minority that is confident in its faith (something Europe didn't think was important anymore). Is the future going to be a Muslim citizenry that is second-class, does not have voting rights, etc.? It wouldn't surprise me.

    in the process of changing the target country forever
     
    The Germany of today would shock the Germany of by gone centuries. Human institutions are hardly ever static - history rides on.

    Peace.

    “The number of Germans who have converted to Islam has increased fourfold within one year

    Nordic princesses for everyone!

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    Hey iffen,

    And good, solid, traditional Nordic princes should keep them as mates.

    Peace.
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  118. AP says:
    @Andrei Martyanov

    so locals are forced to respond with vigilantism.
     
    But that is the whole point of this exchange. State may or may not be functional, but people still do organize. Today it is even more so. Compare this to Europe, where men (such as in Holland) wear skirts to "support" their women.

    But that is the whole point of this exchange. State may or may not be functional, but people still do organize

    My point was that because the Russian state failed to do its job (indeed, it had been shielding the criminals) people were forced to act out on their own. The acting out was not necessarily simply a function of vitality, but of government negligence. There seem to be fewer mass Russian vigilante actions nowadays. Have Russians gotten “soft,” or is the Russian government finally doing its job now?

    In the West (at least the USA) the people rightfully expect the government to deal with the criminals, and it does (check incarceration rates). So they generally don’t have to act out on their own.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Gigi

    "In the West (at least the USA) the people rightfully expect the government to deal with the criminals, and it does (check incarceration rates). So they generally don’t have to act out on their own."
     
    I do not know the situation in USA, but in France, Italy and in general in southern Europe (which I know well) the situation is degrading fast.
    , @Daniel Chieh
    My experience with Russians is that they remain suitably violent and sexually dimorphic in personality in ways that the West aren't. This is just ancedotal, but when I went to a banya with Russian friends, the men regularly mocked me and each other for being pussies for not inflicting more pain upon ourselves and my friends' wives regularly made declarations such as "Russian women do this..." or "Russian women do that..." that you don't see in the West at all anymore. Women seem to put in more effect to be, or even fake femininity such that there's an opposite dynamic to what I usually see, where men try to be sensitive and women try to prove they are tough.

    That said, it does seem like progressive ideology is making inroads with young, who want to be "rich like American" but perhaps the picture is better than I think. I do hope that not all humans become domesticated animals. The Russians I know are after all, the typical "want to be American" types who take some degree of pride on putting down their own people.

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  119. AP says:
    @Andrei Martyanov

    This is, of course, a good thing, but the 1990s ended 17 years ago. Why so slow?
     
    Realistically, 1990s ended not in 2000, a pronounced break with 1990s "setup" started to manifest itself only around 2007-08. So no, not 17 years, maybe 10 max. Yes, the going could have been faster but this is the topic for separate discussion.

    Kontopoga highlights Russian state helplessness and Russian vigilantism.
     
    As I said earlier, what you call vigilantism is one of the signs of the ability of people to self-organize--a crucial metric when one begins to assess a national will for survival.

    “Kontopoga highlights Russian state helplessness and Russian vigilantism.”

    As I said earlier, what you call vigilantism is one of the signs of the ability of people to self-organize–a crucial metric when one begins to assess a national will for survival.

    I agree. My point is that in countries, unlike Russia until recently, where the state actually catches and punishes criminals, there is less need for self-organization. In such countries the people let the police and the courts do their job, which they do. Such circumstances don’t simply a lack of vitality, they simply reflect a functioning state.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    They can also reflect the atrophy of individual will, though. If a muscle is never used, it can also decline and ultimately cease to be.
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  120. Talha says:
    @Hector_St_Clare
    I would say this is not likely – the religion places a great deal of emphasis on modesty and public sexual norms – it is built into the framework at an immutable level.

    Well, we used to think high fertility was built into Catholicism at an immutable level too, but then the sexual revolution conquered Quebec and Latin America. Latin America is heading towards below replacement fertility right now, and Asia has already gotten there. Some Muslim societies have already achieved below replacement fertility (Iran and Lebanon) so I don't think it's out of the question that the rest of the Muslim world will get there too.

    For clarity, the specific aspect of the sexual revolution I'm interested in here is the drop in fertility rates that's associated with thinking about sex as primarily recreational rather than procreational. I don't know (or really care that much) if Muslims become more accepting of premaritial sex, extramarital sex, prostitution or so forth, but I do care very much about fertility dropping in the Muslim and African worlds. I think the world is overpopulated as it is, and that the problem (which is now essentially an African and to some extent South Asian one) is just getting worse from here.

    There is a serious problem in the West if this is the road at the end of the sexual revolution:

    I mean, it's Roosh after all, who has to state it minimally an exteremely unhealthy view of women. More seriously, while I don't particularly approve of pornography, I think the increased sexual openness of women in the Christian or post-Christian worlds is a very good thing. I'm more or less on the free-love, sex-positive side of things (which is yet another area where I strongly disagree with Islam). You claim that increased sexual openness is a problem, but I think this is only going to be convincing to someone who already shares your premises.

    Question: do you see a revival of traditional Christianity in the future? One that will restore healthy families that have replacement-level children? If not, the writing is on the wall. In my local community, the Bosnians are some of the most healthy and prolific families (blond hair, green/blue eyes abound).

    I think there may well be a revival of Christianity in some form, but it will not be "traditional" at least as far as high fertility goes. I see this as a good thing, not a bad thing. As a biologist I'm quite aware that the world is arguably already overpopulated, so I don't see why you want a world or a society that/s more focused on procreation and family. I would much prefer a world with 2 or 3 billion people to the 7 billion we have today, much less the 11 billion expected if African fertility continues on its current trajectory. I think fertility rates in much of Europe are a bit too low- I'd prefer to see TFRs of around 1.6 or 1.7 rather than 1.3- but the bigger problem is that African and Muslim fertility is too high, and we need to combat that with increased contraceptive availability and efforts to convince people of the merits of smaller numbers of children.

    That's nice to hear that your Bosnian neighbors are replicating a beautiful Bosnian phenotype, but statistically Bosnia has one of the lowest fertility rates in the world (1.2) and it's one of only a few countries where Muslim fertility is as low as CHristian.

    Hey Hector,

    Nice to hear you are a biologist.

    I don’t think it’s out of the question that the rest of the Muslim world will get there too.

    I don’t think so either – it’s basically a thinning of the herd by self-inflicted choices.

    I do care very much about fertility dropping in the Muslim and African worlds

    I have no problem with the world’s population decreasing though I think the world could easily support five times our current population – it all just depends on the level of resource depletion. I’m sure you know that an urban dweller of Paris likely consumes energy at the rate of probably half or more of a small village in the Sahel area of Mauritania.

    You claim that increased sexual openness is a problem, but I think this is only going to be convincing to someone who already shares your premises.

    It doesn’t have to convince anybody – the sexually open societies that lead to a decline in the family are writing the proof. For instance, a growing homosexual population in any people leads to genetic dead-ends. And that’s all fine if people don’t think dropping fertility rates are bad – in fact, sexual promiscuity is a good thing to promote in that instance if that is your goal – hell, if I was the Earth and wanted to get rid of the biggest resource drains, I’d do exactly that:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_energy_consumption_per_capita

    The only question is, can you pull the populations out of the nosedive once you’ve started. My guess? Yes, but the populations that arise out of the process will not have congruent values as the once being selected out.

    it’s one of only a few countries where Muslim fertility is as low as CHristian.

    Yup – again, the ones that I’m around are religious/traditional families that attend weekly spiritual gatherings with other families. The post-modern Bosnians are in the process of eliminating themselves – they will be replaced by the religious folk that look like them.

    Like I have said, if you want to preserve the ethnic/racial aspect – then you cannot diverge enormously from the paradigms that preserved it for centuries and centuries and an integral part of that was traditional religion. As Toynbee stated; man’s nature abhors a spiritual vacuum.

    Peace.

    Read More
    • Agree: reiner Tor
    • Replies: @German_reader

    "For instance, a growing homosexual population in any people leads to genetic dead-ends."
     
    Is there any evidence that this is even possible...I mean that the percentage of homosexuals drastically increases? Now I guess it might be possible that some environmental factors might increase the incidence of homosexuality (maybe certain chemicals, material in plastics etc...but as far as I know we don't really know what causes homosexuality, but it probably must be something during fetal development or early childhood at the latest). But I seriously doubt it's possible people just decide to become homosexuals because it's somehow regarded as cool nowadays.
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  121. Talha says:
    @iffen
    “The number of Germans who have converted to Islam has increased fourfold within one year

    Nordic princesses for everyone!

    Hey iffen,

    And good, solid, traditional Nordic princes should keep them as mates.

    Peace.

    Read More
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  122. Talha says:
    @Hector_St_Clare
    I would say this is not likely – the religion places a great deal of emphasis on modesty and public sexual norms – it is built into the framework at an immutable level.

    Well, we used to think high fertility was built into Catholicism at an immutable level too, but then the sexual revolution conquered Quebec and Latin America. Latin America is heading towards below replacement fertility right now, and Asia has already gotten there. Some Muslim societies have already achieved below replacement fertility (Iran and Lebanon) so I don't think it's out of the question that the rest of the Muslim world will get there too.

    For clarity, the specific aspect of the sexual revolution I'm interested in here is the drop in fertility rates that's associated with thinking about sex as primarily recreational rather than procreational. I don't know (or really care that much) if Muslims become more accepting of premaritial sex, extramarital sex, prostitution or so forth, but I do care very much about fertility dropping in the Muslim and African worlds. I think the world is overpopulated as it is, and that the problem (which is now essentially an African and to some extent South Asian one) is just getting worse from here.

    There is a serious problem in the West if this is the road at the end of the sexual revolution:

    I mean, it's Roosh after all, who has to state it minimally an exteremely unhealthy view of women. More seriously, while I don't particularly approve of pornography, I think the increased sexual openness of women in the Christian or post-Christian worlds is a very good thing. I'm more or less on the free-love, sex-positive side of things (which is yet another area where I strongly disagree with Islam). You claim that increased sexual openness is a problem, but I think this is only going to be convincing to someone who already shares your premises.

    Question: do you see a revival of traditional Christianity in the future? One that will restore healthy families that have replacement-level children? If not, the writing is on the wall. In my local community, the Bosnians are some of the most healthy and prolific families (blond hair, green/blue eyes abound).

    I think there may well be a revival of Christianity in some form, but it will not be "traditional" at least as far as high fertility goes. I see this as a good thing, not a bad thing. As a biologist I'm quite aware that the world is arguably already overpopulated, so I don't see why you want a world or a society that/s more focused on procreation and family. I would much prefer a world with 2 or 3 billion people to the 7 billion we have today, much less the 11 billion expected if African fertility continues on its current trajectory. I think fertility rates in much of Europe are a bit too low- I'd prefer to see TFRs of around 1.6 or 1.7 rather than 1.3- but the bigger problem is that African and Muslim fertility is too high, and we need to combat that with increased contraceptive availability and efforts to convince people of the merits of smaller numbers of children.

    That's nice to hear that your Bosnian neighbors are replicating a beautiful Bosnian phenotype, but statistically Bosnia has one of the lowest fertility rates in the world (1.2) and it's one of only a few countries where Muslim fertility is as low as CHristian.

    And yes, I agree Roosh has an unhealthy (possibly bi-polar) view of women. For instance, his claim to fame is teaching men how to get into womens’ pants, but then he complains about degeneracy in women. However, that blog post had a lot of excellent points in how ubiquitous pornography and decadence has become.

    Peace.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Sean
    According to writer Robert Greene, in places like LA those pick up tactics have been so well used that almost all the women can immediately realise what a man is up to. And Roosh is Middle Eastern, what worked for him probably had something to do with that. he probably has had a net deleterious effect on the effectiveness of men's courting skills and he certainly damaged women's trust that men were genuine.

    As for France , the commentator Eric Zemmour, noted the white proletariat's helplessness before the “ostentatious virility of their black and Arab competitors seducing numerous young white women.”.

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  123. @AP

    "Kontopoga highlights Russian state helplessness and Russian vigilantism."

    As I said earlier, what you call vigilantism is one of the signs of the ability of people to self-organize–a crucial metric when one begins to assess a national will for survival.
     
    I agree. My point is that in countries, unlike Russia until recently, where the state actually catches and punishes criminals, there is less need for self-organization. In such countries the people let the police and the courts do their job, which they do. Such circumstances don't simply a lack of vitality, they simply reflect a functioning state.

    They can also reflect the atrophy of individual will, though. If a muscle is never used, it can also decline and ultimately cease to be.

    Read More
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  124. Gigi says:
    @AP

    But that is the whole point of this exchange. State may or may not be functional, but people still do organize
     
    My point was that because the Russian state failed to do its job (indeed, it had been shielding the criminals) people were forced to act out on their own. The acting out was not necessarily simply a function of vitality, but of government negligence. There seem to be fewer mass Russian vigilante actions nowadays. Have Russians gotten "soft," or is the Russian government finally doing its job now?

    In the West (at least the USA) the people rightfully expect the government to deal with the criminals, and it does (check incarceration rates). So they generally don't have to act out on their own.

    “In the West (at least the USA) the people rightfully expect the government to deal with the criminals, and it does (check incarceration rates). So they generally don’t have to act out on their own.”

    I do not know the situation in USA, but in France, Italy and in general in southern Europe (which I know well) the situation is degrading fast.

    Read More
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  125. @AP

    But that is the whole point of this exchange. State may or may not be functional, but people still do organize
     
    My point was that because the Russian state failed to do its job (indeed, it had been shielding the criminals) people were forced to act out on their own. The acting out was not necessarily simply a function of vitality, but of government negligence. There seem to be fewer mass Russian vigilante actions nowadays. Have Russians gotten "soft," or is the Russian government finally doing its job now?

    In the West (at least the USA) the people rightfully expect the government to deal with the criminals, and it does (check incarceration rates). So they generally don't have to act out on their own.

    My experience with Russians is that they remain suitably violent and sexually dimorphic in personality in ways that the West aren’t. This is just ancedotal, but when I went to a banya with Russian friends, the men regularly mocked me and each other for being pussies for not inflicting more pain upon ourselves and my friends’ wives regularly made declarations such as “Russian women do this…” or “Russian women do that…” that you don’t see in the West at all anymore. Women seem to put in more effect to be, or even fake femininity such that there’s an opposite dynamic to what I usually see, where men try to be sensitive and women try to prove they are tough.

    That said, it does seem like progressive ideology is making inroads with young, who want to be “rich like American” but perhaps the picture is better than I think. I do hope that not all humans become domesticated animals. The Russians I know are after all, the typical “want to be American” types who take some degree of pride on putting down their own people.

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  126. @Talha
    Hey G_R,

    who frame this as a human rights and religious liberty issue
     
    I guess German courts will ultimately decide, but isn't it a religious rights issue? I mean if a Islamist government took over Egypt (which may be possible within the next decade or so) - should the Coptic female public school teachers be forced to wear a headscarf or ousted since now they do not represent an "Islamic" government? Why or why not?

    And if the idea is that, it's not German enough to represent the state; well, there are plenty of historic German styles to choose from:
    http://www.costumegallery.com/part3.htm

    Peace.

    No, I don’t think it’s a religious rights issue, imo people who represent the state shouldn’t advocate for a certain religious or political world view through their dress or other signs (e.g. I’d also include conspicuous crosses on necklaces and similar things in this), and that includes teachers in public schools. Arguably it could be different in Muslim faith schools (not that I think those, or any other faith schools, are necessarily a good idea since they’re contributing to segregation). I know many people will think this unfair and even many Christians and conservatives will disagree with me about this, but frankly, if someone takes his/her religion that seriously that he/she’s unwilling for some compromise, he/she just can’t have everything. Teaching children isn’t a human right and no one said following God’s commandments (if you believe in them) should be easy.

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    • Replies: @Talha
    Hey G_R,

    I’d also include conspicuous crosses on necklaces and similar things in this
     
    I may not agree, but at least you are consistent in your application.

    he/she just can’t have everything. Teaching children isn’t a human right and no one said following God’s commandments (if you believe in them) should be easy.
     
    Agreed - I'm a bit tired of snowflake Muslims actually - again this is part of post-modern entitlement attitudes. I feel like telling them; man up guys, this kind of stuff is supposed to happen - you think paradise is free? Own it - and sweat a little for it - the struggle is part of one's spiritual journey:
    "Do men think that they will be left to say, 'We believe' and they will not be tried? And indeed We tried those before them, thus Allah will certainly know those who are true and He will certainly know those who are false." (29:2-3)

    "And We will surely test you with something of fear and hunger and a loss of wealth and lives and fruits, but give good tidings to the patient; who, when misfortune strikes them, say, 'Indeed we belong to Allah, and indeed to Him we will return.'" (2:155-156)

    Peace.
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  127. Sean says:

    Marine LePen’s party only has 2 MPs so anyone who thought she stood a chance of becoming president was cracked.

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  128. @Talha
    Hey Hector,

    Nice to hear you are a biologist.

    I don’t think it’s out of the question that the rest of the Muslim world will get there too.
     
    I don't think so either - it's basically a thinning of the herd by self-inflicted choices.

    I do care very much about fertility dropping in the Muslim and African worlds
     
    I have no problem with the world's population decreasing though I think the world could easily support five times our current population - it all just depends on the level of resource depletion. I'm sure you know that an urban dweller of Paris likely consumes energy at the rate of probably half or more of a small village in the Sahel area of Mauritania.

    You claim that increased sexual openness is a problem, but I think this is only going to be convincing to someone who already shares your premises.
     
    It doesn't have to convince anybody - the sexually open societies that lead to a decline in the family are writing the proof. For instance, a growing homosexual population in any people leads to genetic dead-ends. And that's all fine if people don't think dropping fertility rates are bad - in fact, sexual promiscuity is a good thing to promote in that instance if that is your goal - hell, if I was the Earth and wanted to get rid of the biggest resource drains, I'd do exactly that:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_energy_consumption_per_capita

    The only question is, can you pull the populations out of the nosedive once you've started. My guess? Yes, but the populations that arise out of the process will not have congruent values as the once being selected out.

    it’s one of only a few countries where Muslim fertility is as low as CHristian.
     
    Yup - again, the ones that I'm around are religious/traditional families that attend weekly spiritual gatherings with other families. The post-modern Bosnians are in the process of eliminating themselves - they will be replaced by the religious folk that look like them.

    Like I have said, if you want to preserve the ethnic/racial aspect - then you cannot diverge enormously from the paradigms that preserved it for centuries and centuries and an integral part of that was traditional religion. As Toynbee stated; man's nature abhors a spiritual vacuum.

    Peace.

    “For instance, a growing homosexual population in any people leads to genetic dead-ends.”

    Is there any evidence that this is even possible…I mean that the percentage of homosexuals drastically increases? Now I guess it might be possible that some environmental factors might increase the incidence of homosexuality (maybe certain chemicals, material in plastics etc…but as far as I know we don’t really know what causes homosexuality, but it probably must be something during fetal development or early childhood at the latest). But I seriously doubt it’s possible people just decide to become homosexuals because it’s somehow regarded as cool nowadays.

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    • Replies: @Talha
    Hey G_R,

    Certainly - lots of societies dabbled in homosexuality whether the person had an innate proclivity towards it or not. The Greeks were into it, it even shows up among the samurai:
    "The people of the West are not aware that there once existed in Japan a cultural tradition of homosexuality comparable to that of ancient Greece. During a period of time in which the traditional civilization of Japan reached its perfection, the homosexual love was considered a passion more noble and more gracious than heterosexuality. Over time, this tradition of homosexuality would quickly become discouraged, and eventually it was kept so hidden as it was thought to have disapeared altogether."
    http://www.stthomasu.ca/~parkhill/cj01/irepam.htm

    The Turks were often into it and it shows up in parts of Afghanistan. When you open it up publicly, some people will gravitate towards it while in another context they wouldn't. Human beings are hardly black and white on a sexual spectrum - most are probably solid heterosexuals, but I think plenty would dabble in homosexuality/bisexuality if the right partner/opportunity arises especially if the culture deems it appropriate.

    A society could possibly manage with it as long as the person was also carrying out traditional family roles, but in our post-modern society, we have given homosexual marriage a legal sanction - something I don't believe any prior people did. In an era when heterosexuals themselves aren't having many kids, this just exacerbates the issue.

    Peace.
    , @Randal

    Is there any evidence that this is even possible…I mean that the percentage of homosexuals drastically increases?
     
    I see homosexuality as purely a behavioural issue, and it seems to me there can be no question that the numbers of homosexuals - meaning people who will engage in homosexual acts - changes according to environmental (and especially social) cues.

    The notorious prevalence of homosexual behaviour in coerced male only environments - boarding schools, prisons, naval ships (back when the crews were press-ganged and not self-selecting volunteers) renders that beyond reasonable doubt to my mind.

    The male sex drive is notoriously indiscriminate, notoriously confused with behavioural dominance/submission issues, and also notoriously variable according to activity. It's also likely in part a matter of learned responses.
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  129. Sean says:
    @Talha
    And yes, I agree Roosh has an unhealthy (possibly bi-polar) view of women. For instance, his claim to fame is teaching men how to get into womens' pants, but then he complains about degeneracy in women. However, that blog post had a lot of excellent points in how ubiquitous pornography and decadence has become.

    Peace.

    According to writer Robert Greene, in places like LA those pick up tactics have been so well used that almost all the women can immediately realise what a man is up to. And Roosh is Middle Eastern, what worked for him probably had something to do with that. he probably has had a net deleterious effect on the effectiveness of men’s courting skills and he certainly damaged women’s trust that men were genuine.

    As for France , the commentator Eric Zemmour, noted the white proletariat’s helplessness before the “ostentatious virility of their black and Arab competitors seducing numerous young white women.”.

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    • Replies: @Talha
    Hey Sean,

    Blacks and Arabs (if Muslim) have no business seducing, let alone ogling, any women. They should keep that behavior under serious check. That would never be tolerated by Muslim fathers.

    I'm pretty sick and tired of these ethnic Muslims acting in such predatory behavior that is completely unsanctioned by Islam and then the religion getting blamed for it. I would never let my daughter anywhere close to these club-frequenting, alcohol drinking, etc. losers.

    Peace.
    , @Anon
    I don't know how much effect "Roosh" and "game" have had; from what I've heard they don't seem much more than standard bar-pickup posturing, to be practiced in a milieu in which degeneracy is expected of all sides. I can't imagine that he personally can have had much effect in damaging trust in that environment.
    , @reiner Tor

    ostentatious virility of their black and Arab competitors seducing numerous young white women
     
    They are dominant, so it's to be expected.
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  130. @reiner Tor
    I'm strongly opposed to blanket headscarf bans, including niqab or burqa bans. I think seeing all those niqabs and burqas is a great redpill for the normie masses.

    But it's probably a good idea to make it difficult for Muslims (especially strongly committed Muslims) to join the government, military, or educate our children.

    I agree with that…here in Germany “conservatives” regularly bring up the topic of a general burqa ban. In my opinion that’s just for show, to pretend that they’re doing something while in fact everything continues as before. And such a ban would be meaningless anyway (it wouldn’t strip people with Islamist sympathies of voting rights, or take away welfare benefits from them), and probably wouldn’t be enforced (can you imagine Muslim women would be sent to prison for wearing dress like that? I can’t, there would be a huge outcry, it would generate lots of sympathy for those affected – who might even intentionally provoke punishment -, and in the end authorities would just give up). It would solve absolutely nothing.
    No, the real issue is to keep people with potentially hostile intentions away from positions of power.

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  131. Talha says:
    @German_reader

    "For instance, a growing homosexual population in any people leads to genetic dead-ends."
     
    Is there any evidence that this is even possible...I mean that the percentage of homosexuals drastically increases? Now I guess it might be possible that some environmental factors might increase the incidence of homosexuality (maybe certain chemicals, material in plastics etc...but as far as I know we don't really know what causes homosexuality, but it probably must be something during fetal development or early childhood at the latest). But I seriously doubt it's possible people just decide to become homosexuals because it's somehow regarded as cool nowadays.

    Hey G_R,

    Certainly – lots of societies dabbled in homosexuality whether the person had an innate proclivity towards it or not. The Greeks were into it, it even shows up among the samurai:
    “The people of the West are not aware that there once existed in Japan a cultural tradition of homosexuality comparable to that of ancient Greece. During a period of time in which the traditional civilization of Japan reached its perfection, the homosexual love was considered a passion more noble and more gracious than heterosexuality. Over time, this tradition of homosexuality would quickly become discouraged, and eventually it was kept so hidden as it was thought to have disapeared altogether.”

    http://www.stthomasu.ca/~parkhill/cj01/irepam.htm

    The Turks were often into it and it shows up in parts of Afghanistan. When you open it up publicly, some people will gravitate towards it while in another context they wouldn’t. Human beings are hardly black and white on a sexual spectrum – most are probably solid heterosexuals, but I think plenty would dabble in homosexuality/bisexuality if the right partner/opportunity arises especially if the culture deems it appropriate.

    A society could possibly manage with it as long as the person was also carrying out traditional family roles, but in our post-modern society, we have given homosexual marriage a legal sanction – something I don’t believe any prior people did. In an era when heterosexuals themselves aren’t having many kids, this just exacerbates the issue.

    Peace.

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  132. Talha says:
    @Sean
    According to writer Robert Greene, in places like LA those pick up tactics have been so well used that almost all the women can immediately realise what a man is up to. And Roosh is Middle Eastern, what worked for him probably had something to do with that. he probably has had a net deleterious effect on the effectiveness of men's courting skills and he certainly damaged women's trust that men were genuine.

    As for France , the commentator Eric Zemmour, noted the white proletariat's helplessness before the “ostentatious virility of their black and Arab competitors seducing numerous young white women.”.

    Hey Sean,

    Blacks and Arabs (if Muslim) have no business seducing, let alone ogling, any women. They should keep that behavior under serious check. That would never be tolerated by Muslim fathers.

    I’m pretty sick and tired of these ethnic Muslims acting in such predatory behavior that is completely unsanctioned by Islam and then the religion getting blamed for it. I would never let my daughter anywhere close to these club-frequenting, alcohol drinking, etc. losers.

    Peace.

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  133. Randal says:
    @reiner Tor
    I'm strongly opposed to blanket headscarf bans, including niqab or burqa bans. I think seeing all those niqabs and burqas is a great redpill for the normie masses.

    But it's probably a good idea to make it difficult for Muslims (especially strongly committed Muslims) to join the government, military, or educate our children.

    I think seeing all those niqabs and burqas is a great redpill for the normie masses.

    That is a strong argument, admittedly.

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  134. Randal says:
    @Talha
    Hey Randal,

    I realize this is a complicated issue. And what of Germany's growing convert population - are they to be considered a foreign import?
    "The number of Germans who have converted to Islam has increased fourfold within one year -- despite the negative perception of Islam among the general public."
    http://www.spiegel.de/international/spiegel/muslim-converts-in-germany-angst-ridden-germans-look-for-answers-and-find-them-in-the-koran-a-460364.html

    http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10404.html

    Defence against that process is in itself arguably a legitimate reason...
     
    Look, I understand where you are coming from. There is great wisdom in how Islam did not grant full enfranchisement to non-Muslim citizens or that we have current constitutional rules in Muslim countries that make it clear the official state religion is Islam and the leader has to be a Muslim.

    Like I've said before, Europe is in a bind - basically a judo hold on itself that only it can release. It wants to be egalitarian to a fault and lecture to the Muslim world over it, but then it has to deal with the demographic reality of its declining population and a growing minority that is confident in its faith (something Europe didn't think was important anymore). Is the future going to be a Muslim citizenry that is second-class, does not have voting rights, etc.? It wouldn't surprise me.

    in the process of changing the target country forever
     
    The Germany of today would shock the Germany of by gone centuries. Human institutions are hardly ever static - history rides on.

    Peace.

    And what of Germany’s growing convert population – are they to be considered a foreign import?

    Another consequence of the evil policy of mass immigration.

    Like I’ve said before, Europe is in a bind – basically a judo hold on itself that only it can release. It wants to be egalitarian to a fault and lecture to the Muslim world over it, but then it has to deal with the demographic reality of its declining population and a growing minority that is confident in its faith (something Europe didn’t think was important anymore). Is the future going to be a Muslim citizenry that is second-class, does not have voting rights, etc.? It wouldn’t surprise me.

    Indeed, there are no plausible good outcomes. To coin a phrase, rivers of blood will likely be shed thanks to the crime committed by the mass immigration advocates and enablers. This is one of those cases where hatred is imo justified. I never hate people for membership of a group, even if the group is an enemy of my group. The only justification for hating someone is something harmful they individually have done. For instance, I do hate Blair and Cameron for the wars of aggression they have gratuitously implicated my country in (though whether that hatred is good for me or for anything is admittedly questionable).

    As for demographic decline, that’s not even a particularly bad thing in itself, provided it is not allowed to trigger inflows of foreigners. It causes economic issue that need to be managed, but so does population growth.

    The Germany of today would shock the Germany of by gone centuries. Human institutions are hardly ever static – history rides on.

    The fact of impermanence is no excuse for harmful actions.

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    • Agree: reiner Tor
    • Replies: @reiner Tor

    The only justification for hating someone is something harmful they individually have done.
     
    I also hate people less who are just doing what they are ethnically predisposed to do. I hate black criminals less than white criminals, for example. The bulk of the responsibility for black or Muslim crimes lies with their white enablers. I feel similarly about Jewish neocons vs. gentile neocons: the latter are more culpable. Jews arguing for Israel as a Jewish state but European countries as multicultural countries vs. gentiles arguing for the same: ditto. (Sorry, Iffen, I'm sure you're a nice guy.) Though smarter people are more responsible than dumber ones, so I normally give Jews less slack for being neocons than blacks for being dumb criminals.
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  135. Randal says:
    @German_reader

    "For instance, a growing homosexual population in any people leads to genetic dead-ends."
     
    Is there any evidence that this is even possible...I mean that the percentage of homosexuals drastically increases? Now I guess it might be possible that some environmental factors might increase the incidence of homosexuality (maybe certain chemicals, material in plastics etc...but as far as I know we don't really know what causes homosexuality, but it probably must be something during fetal development or early childhood at the latest). But I seriously doubt it's possible people just decide to become homosexuals because it's somehow regarded as cool nowadays.

    Is there any evidence that this is even possible…I mean that the percentage of homosexuals drastically increases?

    I see homosexuality as purely a behavioural issue, and it seems to me there can be no question that the numbers of homosexuals – meaning people who will engage in homosexual acts – changes according to environmental (and especially social) cues.

    The notorious prevalence of homosexual behaviour in coerced male only environments – boarding schools, prisons, naval ships (back when the crews were press-ganged and not self-selecting volunteers) renders that beyond reasonable doubt to my mind.

    The male sex drive is notoriously indiscriminate, notoriously confused with behavioural dominance/submission issues, and also notoriously variable according to activity. It’s also likely in part a matter of learned responses.

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    • Replies: @German_reader

    The notorious prevalence of homosexual behaviour in coerced male only environments
     
    But that's in environments where people don't have any other option. Is there any evidence that people who have engaged in homosexual acts in prison, continue to do so after their release? I'd expect that many revert to purely heterosexual behaviour, but I don't know if there are any studies about this.
    I probably shouldn't have asked though, it's not a topic I care that much about. It's also a subject where research is probably quite constrained under present conditions.
    , @Anon
    I agree, and I'd also add that sexual perversion in general seems to be a characteristic of decaying societies; twentieth-century England for example, ancient Rome (I seem to recall some authors charged part of the decline to the rise of this sort of thing; I myself am inclined to reverse the relationship), late modern (especially 19th-century) Islam, etc.
    , @reiner Tor
    Homosexuality is a question of preference - I cannot imagine a heterosexual guy preferring to have sex with guys unless he had absolutely no other chance. Actually, even if I was dominant in a prison I'd very much prefer masturbation over sex with another guy. I really find the idea of sex with guys repulsive.

    The very existence of homosexual porn proves that there are guys who at least occasionally prefer sex with other guys. Greg Cochran wrote how bisexuality is actually rare.

    Greg Cochran's explanation is the Gay Germ Theory, that some kind of bug (a virus, bacterium, or some other such thing) causes it. It could be a very common illness that somehow in a small percentage of its victims causes destruction in some part of the brain responsible for sexual preference. (Much like how polio cripples a very small percentage of those infected, with the vast majority either showing no symptoms or recovering after a serious illness.)

    The Gay Germ Theory's weakness is how to explain the Samurai and the Spartans. Though it's possible that somehow those populations got heavily infected and then cultural pressure forced those not infected to actually engage in homosexual acts. Another possibility is that neither the Spartans nor the Samurai were gay as we understand it - they didn't really prefer having sex with other guys, but their culture did. In any event, they did have sex with their wives, too, so weren't exclusively homosexual.
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  136. derrick_s says:
    @anon
    40% voting for Le Pen would be huge

    Macron looks unstable to me - reasonable chance he'll implode

    anon said “…Macron looks unstable to me…” Indeed, he screws up his face and screams in an unseemly, and unmanly manner. I’m hoping he may pee himself live on TV at a large rally in front of his Mum, Brigitte. This might stop the Parisian sophisticates voting for him.

    Seriously though, looking at the very real death wish that we can see in action in UK and French white populations I am rapidly coming to the conclusion that (white) people who want to preserve their race need to move NOW. There are still large numbers of whites who could just about afford to voluntarily relocate to a place which we could in time take over and run, the European ethnostate. Some nationalists have already identified Hungary as the place where we would be most likely to thrive. If people don’t start to move NOW I really think it may be too late.

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    • Replies: @Hector_St_Clare
    I like the idea of people moving to places where they can live with like minded people (and in this case of like ethnicity), and would greatly encourage people who want to live surrounded by blue-eyed blonde-haired people to consider moving to Eastern Europe. I have considered doing so myself, although I'm not white, and though in my case I'd be looking for a country distrustful of capitalism as well as one distrustful of mass migration and cultural liberalism. (Maybe Belarus?)

    If you have news about people moving en masse to Hungary for ethnic identity reasons, can you link to it? I'd love to hear more.

    That being said I'd advise you against thinking of Hungary as the *one* country to move to. It's a relatively small country which can't accommodate that many people, and basically all of Eastern and much of Central Europe would serve the purpose as well. Public opinion in essentially all Eastern Europe is strongly ethnocentric (the World Values Survey data is informative here, as are the policies on the migrant crisis followed by countries like Poland, Slovakia etc.). Also, there is no such thing as 'white' ethnicity, there are lots of different European ethnic groups (albeit they share some physical traits in common), so you'd need a more specific locus of identity than just considering yourself white. The ethnic nationalist party in Hungary doesn't even consider Hungarians to be part of the same racial group as Europeans (they see themselves as racially 'Turanian').

    That being said, Hungary seems like a nice country to live in. A family friend (he's Indian, not white) lived there for a few years in the 1960s, became fluent in Hungarian and developed some deep friendships with his hosts; he went back several times including while the Cold War was going on, and still keeps in touch with people he knew.
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  137. @Randal

    Is there any evidence that this is even possible…I mean that the percentage of homosexuals drastically increases?
     
    I see homosexuality as purely a behavioural issue, and it seems to me there can be no question that the numbers of homosexuals - meaning people who will engage in homosexual acts - changes according to environmental (and especially social) cues.

    The notorious prevalence of homosexual behaviour in coerced male only environments - boarding schools, prisons, naval ships (back when the crews were press-ganged and not self-selecting volunteers) renders that beyond reasonable doubt to my mind.

    The male sex drive is notoriously indiscriminate, notoriously confused with behavioural dominance/submission issues, and also notoriously variable according to activity. It's also likely in part a matter of learned responses.

    The notorious prevalence of homosexual behaviour in coerced male only environments

    But that’s in environments where people don’t have any other option. Is there any evidence that people who have engaged in homosexual acts in prison, continue to do so after their release? I’d expect that many revert to purely heterosexual behaviour, but I don’t know if there are any studies about this.
    I probably shouldn’t have asked though, it’s not a topic I care that much about. It’s also a subject where research is probably quite constrained under present conditions.

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  138. @German_reader

    "Conversions to marry have long been common enough in France, but a growing number of young people are now seen as converting to be better socially integrated in neighborhoods where Islam is dominant"
     
    Honestly, that sounds like a defeated people submitting to its new masters.
    I don't wish ill on Muslims, but an islamicized France wouldn't be France anymore, but something totally different.

    but an islamicized France wouldn’t be France anymore, but something totally different.

    How do you propose we get rid of the Feminists and the gays without Islam?

    I’m against mass immigration, but we still need an alternative.

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    • Replies: @German_reader

    How do you propose we get rid of the Feminists and the gays without Islam?

    I’m against mass immigration, but we still need an alternative.
     
    Maybe we can ask Kim-Jong-Un about it?
    , @anon

    How do you propose we get rid of the Feminists and the gays without Islam?
     
    substituting "reduce the negative influence of" for "get rid of"

    genetics - the excessive influence of both is the result of the culture being poisoned by the Boassian bank slate nonsense
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  139. Anon says: • Disclaimer
    @Anon
    Can Marseilles be reclaimed as an European city?

    If Valencia, Granada, and Malaga could, why not?

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  140. Anon says: • Disclaimer
    @Randal

    Is there any evidence that this is even possible…I mean that the percentage of homosexuals drastically increases?
     
    I see homosexuality as purely a behavioural issue, and it seems to me there can be no question that the numbers of homosexuals - meaning people who will engage in homosexual acts - changes according to environmental (and especially social) cues.

    The notorious prevalence of homosexual behaviour in coerced male only environments - boarding schools, prisons, naval ships (back when the crews were press-ganged and not self-selecting volunteers) renders that beyond reasonable doubt to my mind.

    The male sex drive is notoriously indiscriminate, notoriously confused with behavioural dominance/submission issues, and also notoriously variable according to activity. It's also likely in part a matter of learned responses.

    I agree, and I’d also add that sexual perversion in general seems to be a characteristic of decaying societies; twentieth-century England for example, ancient Rome (I seem to recall some authors charged part of the decline to the rise of this sort of thing; I myself am inclined to reverse the relationship), late modern (especially 19th-century) Islam, etc.

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    • Replies: @anon

    I’d also add that sexual perversion in general seems to be a characteristic of decaying societies
     
    there's a theory that one cause of homosexuality is some kind of bug or STD - if so then socially conservative societies e.g. the West before the 1960s or early Rome, prevented the spread of that bug but if a society becomes more libertine so the bug spreads faster creating a vicious cycle
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  141. Anon says: • Disclaimer
    @Sean
    According to writer Robert Greene, in places like LA those pick up tactics have been so well used that almost all the women can immediately realise what a man is up to. And Roosh is Middle Eastern, what worked for him probably had something to do with that. he probably has had a net deleterious effect on the effectiveness of men's courting skills and he certainly damaged women's trust that men were genuine.

    As for France , the commentator Eric Zemmour, noted the white proletariat's helplessness before the “ostentatious virility of their black and Arab competitors seducing numerous young white women.”.

    I don’t know how much effect “Roosh” and “game” have had; from what I’ve heard they don’t seem much more than standard bar-pickup posturing, to be practiced in a milieu in which degeneracy is expected of all sides. I can’t imagine that he personally can have had much effect in damaging trust in that environment.

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  142. Anon says: • Disclaimer

    I’m posting up a storm here, so I apologize, but: Mme. (?) Le Pen has the same level of support (5 %) among Parisians and among Muslims?

    I wonder about her support among Mulsim Parisians.

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  143. @Greasy William

    but an islamicized France wouldn’t be France anymore, but something totally different.
     
    How do you propose we get rid of the Feminists and the gays without Islam?

    I'm against mass immigration, but we still need an alternative.

    How do you propose we get rid of the Feminists and the gays without Islam?

    I’m against mass immigration, but we still need an alternative.

    Maybe we can ask Kim-Jong-Un about it?

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  144. The problem for Le Pen is that it tends to be older, conservative French people who are most keen to stay in the EU. As is the case everywhere in the West, urban middle class whites are allergic to nationalism, which only leaves working class whites who will vote for her nationalist, anti-EU policies.

    Difficult to get around this. If she backs off from her anti-EU focus, she may attract some traditional centre-right voters, but if France stays in the EU it will be very hard to revive the economy and put in place tough immigration policies.

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    • Replies: @anon

    As is the case everywhere in the West, urban middle class whites are allergic to nationalism, which only leaves working class whites who will vote for her nationalist, anti-EU policies.
     
    They wouldn't be if they knew the truth about how the banlieues were cleansed because they'd be terrified for their own children's future.

    The reason they don't know is the media lying - people who live or used to live close to the immigrant youth gangs know the media is lying but the upper middle class people who believe the media don't know what's happening. Getting around the media's wall of lies is the key - although that's a lot easier said than done.

    The current "fake news" charade coming from the MSM is because the media knows this.
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  145. @Anatoly Karlin
    (1) University educated people live with other university educated people - other whites, as well as the cream of the immigrant crop.

    This trend is actually intensifying due to the increasing cognitive stratification that Charles Murray has written about.

    (2) Sailer has also written a lot on the class war element of pro-immigration/minority virtue signalling.

    When people with similar political views only socialise with people like themselves, they tend to reinforce each other views. Hence a political moderate who lives around lots of left-liberals will tend to become more liberal, while a moderate left-liberal who is surrounded by lots of left-wing people will move further to the left.

    What’s happened over the last century of urbanisation is that many whites with liberal inclinations have moved to large cities where they have turned into staunch liberals and leftists. A hundred years ago most of them would have lived in smaller towns and cities where they would have had to socialise with a lot of people with more conservative political views.

    It also needs pointing out that there are now very few poor white people in large cities, Hence, liberal urban whites only see relatively wealthy whites and economically struggling minorities. This is one of the reasons why they tend to take the side of non-whites on immigration and law and order matters. In the geographic space they inhibit, only non-whites struggle economically.

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    • Replies: @German_reader
    "Hence, liberal urban whites only see relatively wealthy whites and economically struggling minorities. "

    I don't think that's true in Europe. Britain has a large urban, white underclass. Things aren't quite as extreme in Germany, but you'd have to be blind not to see there are plenty of white proles around in urban settings. And where I live (and it's not some slum area), you regularly can see native, German pensioners looking through trash cans for recyclable plastic bottles (Germany has a system where you get money for bringing recyclabe bottles to collecting centres).
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  146. reiner Tor says: • Website
    @Sean
    According to writer Robert Greene, in places like LA those pick up tactics have been so well used that almost all the women can immediately realise what a man is up to. And Roosh is Middle Eastern, what worked for him probably had something to do with that. he probably has had a net deleterious effect on the effectiveness of men's courting skills and he certainly damaged women's trust that men were genuine.

    As for France , the commentator Eric Zemmour, noted the white proletariat's helplessness before the “ostentatious virility of their black and Arab competitors seducing numerous young white women.”.

    ostentatious virility of their black and Arab competitors seducing numerous young white women

    They are dominant, so it’s to be expected.

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    • Replies: @Sean
    IMO white men seem less relaxed about approaching women and just less ardent, although they are more faithful once in a relationship. I suppose that is a result of monogamy in which men traditionally had less hard work to do getting a girl and could stop when they got one. Black men are are adapted to getting girl after girl after girl . I don't know if it is properly called dominance. I suppose in places where blacks have the numbers or cases where they are bigger and stronger their physical threat dominance does drive white boys away from spare girls, but there are other ways blacks win out. I know of a a slightly chubby working class 21 year old girl , good looking (she turned heads in the street) and tall, who got well and truly seduced by an African after a few years away at university. She was mixing with an affluent upper middle class almost entirely white (the odd south Asian) crowd, and then had her first serious relationship with a young black man. She didn't talk to me about her love life obviously, but I heard from women she had confided in that that she found the posh white uni boys she went on dates with to be arrogant, which I suppose meant they acted like she wasn't all that sexy to them. The young black man who she fell for was described ( I avoided seeing them together) as slender and boyish average height and very, very dark skinned . He was well spoken through having been to a expensive private school, though he only worked in a bar.

    So blacks, from what can gather from this one case I know a bit about , hit the jackpot through making young women feel desirable. The girl had got a very striking hairstyle before this happened , bleached an with long extensions. A big blonde mane like that bespeaks seeking attention, and while the black boy was obviously not repulsive to her, I think he won her over by giving her the feeling she was the sexiest girl in the world . She was left distraught when he finished with her (later he, likely realising girls like that didn't grow on trees, tried to get her back but got nowhere) Blacks' testosterone makes than fight each other a lot, but they are also noticeably outgoing , joyous and of course more sexually driven. Every woman wants to be thought beautiful and desirable, and blacks are there for women unsatisfied by the attention they are getting. Testosterone-mediated driven-ness, extroversion and enjoyment of showing females a good time explains black success with white girls I think. There is polygyny in Africa and women choose in poligyny.

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  147. reiner Tor says: • Website
    @Randal

    And what of Germany’s growing convert population – are they to be considered a foreign import?
     
    Another consequence of the evil policy of mass immigration.

    Like I’ve said before, Europe is in a bind – basically a judo hold on itself that only it can release. It wants to be egalitarian to a fault and lecture to the Muslim world over it, but then it has to deal with the demographic reality of its declining population and a growing minority that is confident in its faith (something Europe didn’t think was important anymore). Is the future going to be a Muslim citizenry that is second-class, does not have voting rights, etc.? It wouldn’t surprise me.
     
    Indeed, there are no plausible good outcomes. To coin a phrase, rivers of blood will likely be shed thanks to the crime committed by the mass immigration advocates and enablers. This is one of those cases where hatred is imo justified. I never hate people for membership of a group, even if the group is an enemy of my group. The only justification for hating someone is something harmful they individually have done. For instance, I do hate Blair and Cameron for the wars of aggression they have gratuitously implicated my country in (though whether that hatred is good for me or for anything is admittedly questionable).

    As for demographic decline, that's not even a particularly bad thing in itself, provided it is not allowed to trigger inflows of foreigners. It causes economic issue that need to be managed, but so does population growth.

    The Germany of today would shock the Germany of by gone centuries. Human institutions are hardly ever static – history rides on.
     
    The fact of impermanence is no excuse for harmful actions.

    The only justification for hating someone is something harmful they individually have done.

    I also hate people less who are just doing what they are ethnically predisposed to do. I hate black criminals less than white criminals, for example. The bulk of the responsibility for black or Muslim crimes lies with their white enablers. I feel similarly about Jewish neocons vs. gentile neocons: the latter are more culpable. Jews arguing for Israel as a Jewish state but European countries as multicultural countries vs. gentiles arguing for the same: ditto. (Sorry, Iffen, I’m sure you’re a nice guy.) Though smarter people are more responsible than dumber ones, so I normally give Jews less slack for being neocons than blacks for being dumb criminals.

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    • Replies: @iffen
    (Sorry, Iffen, I’m sure you’re a nice guy.)

    Thanks, this depends upon one's definition of nice. I know from past exchanges that defining the terms that we use is not high on your to do list. :)

    I take note that you are consistent in your application of group identity rather than individualism. I like consistency and strive for it myself.

    You misrepresent my views. I am not opposed to ethnic nationalism per se. I make no prescriptions for countries other than the US. I do offer opinions on other countries as to whether they have ethnic or civic nationalism and which I think is more appropriate for that country based mostly on their history but also current conditions and the prospect of changing conditions in the future.

    Did you note the speech where Le Pen said that halal slaughter should be banned?
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  148. iffen says:
    @reiner Tor

    The only justification for hating someone is something harmful they individually have done.
     
    I also hate people less who are just doing what they are ethnically predisposed to do. I hate black criminals less than white criminals, for example. The bulk of the responsibility for black or Muslim crimes lies with their white enablers. I feel similarly about Jewish neocons vs. gentile neocons: the latter are more culpable. Jews arguing for Israel as a Jewish state but European countries as multicultural countries vs. gentiles arguing for the same: ditto. (Sorry, Iffen, I'm sure you're a nice guy.) Though smarter people are more responsible than dumber ones, so I normally give Jews less slack for being neocons than blacks for being dumb criminals.

    (Sorry, Iffen, I’m sure you’re a nice guy.)

    Thanks, this depends upon one’s definition of nice. I know from past exchanges that defining the terms that we use is not high on your to do list. :)

    I take note that you are consistent in your application of group identity rather than individualism. I like consistency and strive for it myself.

    You misrepresent my views. I am not opposed to ethnic nationalism per se. I make no prescriptions for countries other than the US. I do offer opinions on other countries as to whether they have ethnic or civic nationalism and which I think is more appropriate for that country based mostly on their history but also current conditions and the prospect of changing conditions in the future.

    Did you note the speech where Le Pen said that halal slaughter should be banned?

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    • Replies: @Talha
    Hey iffen,

    Le Pen said that halal slaughter should be banned
     
    The litmus test is if she says the same thing for Kosher slaughter - otherwise it's just posturing. If that does happen - it'll just boost sales for imported meat from New Zealand and Australia honestly.

    Peace.
    , @Hector_St_Clare
    You misrepresent my views. I am not opposed to ethnic nationalism per se. I make no prescriptions for countries other than the US. I do offer opinions on other countries as to whether they have ethnic or civic nationalism and which I think is more appropriate for that country based mostly on their history but also current conditions and the prospect of changing conditions in the future.

    BTW I entirely second this.
    , @reiner Tor
    I judge individuals as individuals, but group membership is often a very strong mitigating circumstance. Except whites, who I expect to have full agency and so have no such mitigating circumstance. In other words, I hold whites more morally culpable, while I reckon that others have less agency which partially absolves them of their crimes, at least in a moral sense. This makes me a little bit like leftists - not a surprise, since I used to be one.

    Where I differ from leftists is that I think nonwhites should also be punished as if they were whites, exactly because of their predisposition to commit more crimes, or else we are encouraging them to be more criminal. (Actually, theoretically they should be punished more to counteract their predispositions. But I'd find such practice repulsive.)

    I gave up leftism when I realized it was unsustainable, but it didn't make me less understanding to nonwhites, I still don't consider them much morally responsible. Low-class Pakistani guys gang-rape white women because that's just what they do. It's like lions will eat people if you let them loose in a big city. The responsibility is not with the lions or with Talha's dumber and embarrassing ethnic/religious brothers but with the whites who let them loose in our cities.

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  149. Talha says:
    @German_reader
    No, I don't think it's a religious rights issue, imo people who represent the state shouldn't advocate for a certain religious or political world view through their dress or other signs (e.g. I'd also include conspicuous crosses on necklaces and similar things in this), and that includes teachers in public schools. Arguably it could be different in Muslim faith schools (not that I think those, or any other faith schools, are necessarily a good idea since they're contributing to segregation). I know many people will think this unfair and even many Christians and conservatives will disagree with me about this, but frankly, if someone takes his/her religion that seriously that he/she's unwilling for some compromise, he/she just can't have everything. Teaching children isn't a human right and no one said following God's commandments (if you believe in them) should be easy.

    Hey G_R,

    I’d also include conspicuous crosses on necklaces and similar things in this

    I may not agree, but at least you are consistent in your application.

    he/she just can’t have everything. Teaching children isn’t a human right and no one said following God’s commandments (if you believe in them) should be easy.

    Agreed – I’m a bit tired of snowflake Muslims actually – again this is part of post-modern entitlement attitudes. I feel like telling them; man up guys, this kind of stuff is supposed to happen – you think paradise is free? Own it – and sweat a little for it – the struggle is part of one’s spiritual journey:
    “Do men think that they will be left to say, ‘We believe’ and they will not be tried? And indeed We tried those before them, thus Allah will certainly know those who are true and He will certainly know those who are false.” (29:2-3)

    “And We will surely test you with something of fear and hunger and a loss of wealth and lives and fruits, but give good tidings to the patient; who, when misfortune strikes them, say, ‘Indeed we belong to Allah, and indeed to Him we will return.’” (2:155-156)

    Peace.

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  150. Talha says:
    @iffen
    (Sorry, Iffen, I’m sure you’re a nice guy.)

    Thanks, this depends upon one's definition of nice. I know from past exchanges that defining the terms that we use is not high on your to do list. :)

    I take note that you are consistent in your application of group identity rather than individualism. I like consistency and strive for it myself.

    You misrepresent my views. I am not opposed to ethnic nationalism per se. I make no prescriptions for countries other than the US. I do offer opinions on other countries as to whether they have ethnic or civic nationalism and which I think is more appropriate for that country based mostly on their history but also current conditions and the prospect of changing conditions in the future.

    Did you note the speech where Le Pen said that halal slaughter should be banned?

    Hey iffen,

    Le Pen said that halal slaughter should be banned

    The litmus test is if she says the same thing for Kosher slaughter – otherwise it’s just posturing. If that does happen – it’ll just boost sales for imported meat from New Zealand and Australia honestly.

    Peace.

    Read More
    • Replies: @iffen

    (JTA) – Marine Le Pen, the far-right candidate in the French presidential elections, said she would ban halal slaughter of animals if she is elected, along with any other method of ritual slaughter without stunning.

    Le Pen, who finished second with 21.5 percent of the vote in the first round of the elections Sunday, made the statement Tuesday on halal slaughter during a campaign visit at a meat market near Paris. She did not mention shechitah, the kosher slaughter of animals, but did say she wanted to outlaw any slaughter of animals without stunning.

    “Slaughter without stunning, I’m sorry, it should have special labels,” Le Pen said. “Furthermore, I think that slaughter without stunning should be prohibited.”
     
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  151. anon says: • Disclaimer
    @Greasy William

    but an islamicized France wouldn’t be France anymore, but something totally different.
     
    How do you propose we get rid of the Feminists and the gays without Islam?

    I'm against mass immigration, but we still need an alternative.

    How do you propose we get rid of the Feminists and the gays without Islam?

    substituting “reduce the negative influence of” for “get rid of”

    genetics – the excessive influence of both is the result of the culture being poisoned by the Boassian bank slate nonsense

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  152. anon says: • Disclaimer
    @Anon
    I agree, and I'd also add that sexual perversion in general seems to be a characteristic of decaying societies; twentieth-century England for example, ancient Rome (I seem to recall some authors charged part of the decline to the rise of this sort of thing; I myself am inclined to reverse the relationship), late modern (especially 19th-century) Islam, etc.

    I’d also add that sexual perversion in general seems to be a characteristic of decaying societies

    there’s a theory that one cause of homosexuality is some kind of bug or STD – if so then socially conservative societies e.g. the West before the 1960s or early Rome, prevented the spread of that bug but if a society becomes more libertine so the bug spreads faster creating a vicious cycle

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  153. @derrick_s
    anon said "...Macron looks unstable to me..." Indeed, he screws up his face and screams in an unseemly, and unmanly manner. I'm hoping he may pee himself live on TV at a large rally in front of his Mum, Brigitte. This might stop the Parisian sophisticates voting for him.

    Seriously though, looking at the very real death wish that we can see in action in UK and French white populations I am rapidly coming to the conclusion that (white) people who want to preserve their race need to move NOW. There are still large numbers of whites who could just about afford to voluntarily relocate to a place which we could in time take over and run, the European ethnostate. Some nationalists have already identified Hungary as the place where we would be most likely to thrive. If people don't start to move NOW I really think it may be too late.

    I like the idea of people moving to places where they can live with like minded people (and in this case of like ethnicity), and would greatly encourage people who want to live surrounded by blue-eyed blonde-haired people to consider moving to Eastern Europe. I have considered doing so myself, although I’m not white, and though in my case I’d be looking for a country distrustful of capitalism as well as one distrustful of mass migration and cultural liberalism. (Maybe Belarus?)

    If you have news about people moving en masse to Hungary for ethnic identity reasons, can you link to it? I’d love to hear more.

    That being said I’d advise you against thinking of Hungary as the *one* country to move to. It’s a relatively small country which can’t accommodate that many people, and basically all of Eastern and much of Central Europe would serve the purpose as well. Public opinion in essentially all Eastern Europe is strongly ethnocentric (the World Values Survey data is informative here, as are the policies on the migrant crisis followed by countries like Poland, Slovakia etc.). Also, there is no such thing as ‘white’ ethnicity, there are lots of different European ethnic groups (albeit they share some physical traits in common), so you’d need a more specific locus of identity than just considering yourself white. The ethnic nationalist party in Hungary doesn’t even consider Hungarians to be part of the same racial group as Europeans (they see themselves as racially ‘Turanian’).

    That being said, Hungary seems like a nice country to live in. A family friend (he’s Indian, not white) lived there for a few years in the 1960s, became fluent in Hungarian and developed some deep friendships with his hosts; he went back several times including while the Cold War was going on, and still keeps in touch with people he knew.

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    • Replies: @derrick_s
    Griffin and some friends and comrades are moving/have moved to Hungary - - -
    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/nick-griffin-bnp-emigrate-hungary-next-six-months-british-national-party-a7638131.html

    I use "white" as shorthand for European Identitarian. I know about Jobbik and the Turanian movement in Hungary. They are sympathetic to Europeans and it is believed that once the real collapse begins in western Europe they would accept white refugees who were willing to assimilate. The Hungarians aren't particularly blond-haired and blue-eyed, but neither am I. The racially aware don't see themselves as being Indo-European since their language is part of the Finno-Ugric group, however, I believe I'd be welcomed there BEFORE you and your Indian mate, since you say neither of you is "white", and I am.

    I hope you and your Indian mate find somewhere nice to retire to. I hope it isn't anywhere in Europe. No offence.
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  154. @iffen
    (Sorry, Iffen, I’m sure you’re a nice guy.)

    Thanks, this depends upon one's definition of nice. I know from past exchanges that defining the terms that we use is not high on your to do list. :)

    I take note that you are consistent in your application of group identity rather than individualism. I like consistency and strive for it myself.

    You misrepresent my views. I am not opposed to ethnic nationalism per se. I make no prescriptions for countries other than the US. I do offer opinions on other countries as to whether they have ethnic or civic nationalism and which I think is more appropriate for that country based mostly on their history but also current conditions and the prospect of changing conditions in the future.

    Did you note the speech where Le Pen said that halal slaughter should be banned?

    You misrepresent my views. I am not opposed to ethnic nationalism per se. I make no prescriptions for countries other than the US. I do offer opinions on other countries as to whether they have ethnic or civic nationalism and which I think is more appropriate for that country based mostly on their history but also current conditions and the prospect of changing conditions in the future.

    BTW I entirely second this.

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  155. anon says: • Disclaimer
    @unpc downunder
    The problem for Le Pen is that it tends to be older, conservative French people who are most keen to stay in the EU. As is the case everywhere in the West, urban middle class whites are allergic to nationalism, which only leaves working class whites who will vote for her nationalist, anti-EU policies.

    Difficult to get around this. If she backs off from her anti-EU focus, she may attract some traditional centre-right voters, but if France stays in the EU it will be very hard to revive the economy and put in place tough immigration policies.

    As is the case everywhere in the West, urban middle class whites are allergic to nationalism, which only leaves working class whites who will vote for her nationalist, anti-EU policies.

    They wouldn’t be if they knew the truth about how the banlieues were cleansed because they’d be terrified for their own children’s future.

    The reason they don’t know is the media lying – people who live or used to live close to the immigrant youth gangs know the media is lying but the upper middle class people who believe the media don’t know what’s happening. Getting around the media’s wall of lies is the key – although that’s a lot easier said than done.

    The current “fake news” charade coming from the MSM is because the media knows this.

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  156. iffen says:
    @Talha
    Hey iffen,

    Le Pen said that halal slaughter should be banned
     
    The litmus test is if she says the same thing for Kosher slaughter - otherwise it's just posturing. If that does happen - it'll just boost sales for imported meat from New Zealand and Australia honestly.

    Peace.

    (JTA) – Marine Le Pen, the far-right candidate in the French presidential elections, said she would ban halal slaughter of animals if she is elected, along with any other method of ritual slaughter without stunning.

    Le Pen, who finished second with 21.5 percent of the vote in the first round of the elections Sunday, made the statement Tuesday on halal slaughter during a campaign visit at a meat market near Paris. She did not mention shechitah, the kosher slaughter of animals, but did say she wanted to outlaw any slaughter of animals without stunning.

    “Slaughter without stunning, I’m sorry, it should have special labels,” Le Pen said. “Furthermore, I think that slaughter without stunning should be prohibited.”

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    Kudos for consistency!

    The weird thing is, the reasons why Muslim scholars are prohibiting stunning is because it has been determined to add extra pain to the animal during the process.
    "There are numerous types of stunning including the pneumatic stunner which delivers a blow to the head of the animal, captive bolt pistol which shatters the brain of the animal, electric water trough which delivers a electric shock to poultry, and electric brain stunner for sheep...The common factor in all these methods of stunning is causing extra pain to the animal above and beyond the pain experienced during the slaughter itself. For this reason, many scholars have declared that the act of stunning is extremely disliked and close to being impermissible...Stunning is a unacceptable action and the person who stuns will sinful for causing extra pain to the animal. However, the impermissibility of the act of stunning does not influence the lawfulness of the animal which was stunned and does NOT necessarily mean that all stunned animals are also unlawful to consume."
    http://halaladvocates.net/site/our-issues/stunning-animals/

    So I don't get what the push is for (it seems it's to avoid the animal thrashing about when being slaughtered) - but I'm not an expert on this field.

    Peace.
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  157. Talha says:
    @iffen

    (JTA) – Marine Le Pen, the far-right candidate in the French presidential elections, said she would ban halal slaughter of animals if she is elected, along with any other method of ritual slaughter without stunning.

    Le Pen, who finished second with 21.5 percent of the vote in the first round of the elections Sunday, made the statement Tuesday on halal slaughter during a campaign visit at a meat market near Paris. She did not mention shechitah, the kosher slaughter of animals, but did say she wanted to outlaw any slaughter of animals without stunning.

    “Slaughter without stunning, I’m sorry, it should have special labels,” Le Pen said. “Furthermore, I think that slaughter without stunning should be prohibited.”
     

    Kudos for consistency!

    The weird thing is, the reasons why Muslim scholars are prohibiting stunning is because it has been determined to add extra pain to the animal during the process.
    “There are numerous types of stunning including the pneumatic stunner which delivers a blow to the head of the animal, captive bolt pistol which shatters the brain of the animal, electric water trough which delivers a electric shock to poultry, and electric brain stunner for sheep…The common factor in all these methods of stunning is causing extra pain to the animal above and beyond the pain experienced during the slaughter itself. For this reason, many scholars have declared that the act of stunning is extremely disliked and close to being impermissible…Stunning is a unacceptable action and the person who stuns will sinful for causing extra pain to the animal. However, the impermissibility of the act of stunning does not influence the lawfulness of the animal which was stunned and does NOT necessarily mean that all stunned animals are also unlawful to consume.”

    http://halaladvocates.net/site/our-issues/stunning-animals/

    So I don’t get what the push is for (it seems it’s to avoid the animal thrashing about when being slaughtered) – but I’m not an expert on this field.

    Peace.

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    • Replies: @iffen
    I am not knowledgeable enough to know if she bases her objection on the pain to the animal angle or acculturation or both. We would have to inquire into her intent and motivation and I get into trouble in the comment section when I do that so I will leave it alone.
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  158. Sean says:
    @reiner Tor

    ostentatious virility of their black and Arab competitors seducing numerous young white women
     
    They are dominant, so it's to be expected.

    IMO white men seem less relaxed about approaching women and just less ardent, although they are more faithful once in a relationship. I suppose that is a result of monogamy in which men traditionally had less hard work to do getting a girl and could stop when they got one. Black men are are adapted to getting girl after girl after girl . I don’t know if it is properly called dominance. I suppose in places where blacks have the numbers or cases where they are bigger and stronger their physical threat dominance does drive white boys away from spare girls, but there are other ways blacks win out. I know of a a slightly chubby working class 21 year old girl , good looking (she turned heads in the street) and tall, who got well and truly seduced by an African after a few years away at university. She was mixing with an affluent upper middle class almost entirely white (the odd south Asian) crowd, and then had her first serious relationship with a young black man. She didn’t talk to me about her love life obviously, but I heard from women she had confided in that that she found the posh white uni boys she went on dates with to be arrogant, which I suppose meant they acted like she wasn’t all that sexy to them. The young black man who she fell for was described ( I avoided seeing them together) as slender and boyish average height and very, very dark skinned . He was well spoken through having been to a expensive private school, though he only worked in a bar.

    So blacks, from what can gather from this one case I know a bit about , hit the jackpot through making young women feel desirable. The girl had got a very striking hairstyle before this happened , bleached an with long extensions. A big blonde mane like that bespeaks seeking attention, and while the black boy was obviously not repulsive to her, I think he won her over by giving her the feeling she was the sexiest girl in the world . She was left distraught when he finished with her (later he, likely realising girls like that didn’t grow on trees, tried to get her back but got nowhere) Blacks’ testosterone makes than fight each other a lot, but they are also noticeably outgoing , joyous and of course more sexually driven. Every woman wants to be thought beautiful and desirable, and blacks are there for women unsatisfied by the attention they are getting. Testosterone-mediated driven-ness, extroversion and enjoyment of showing females a good time explains black success with white girls I think. There is polygyny in Africa and women choose in poligyny.

    Read More
    • Replies: @reiner Tor

    IMO white men seem less relaxed about approaching women and just less ardent
     
    Might be true in comparison with blacks. Untrue in comparison with most Muslims. The reason they are often attractive is because they are socially dominant: they have brothers and cousins coming to their aid, and so have little fear of a fistfight, which lets them act dominantly in interactions with white guys. They also fear prison less, which makes them ever more fearsome. This is what makes them attractive to white women - women dig socially dominant guys.
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  159. iffen says:
    @Talha
    Kudos for consistency!

    The weird thing is, the reasons why Muslim scholars are prohibiting stunning is because it has been determined to add extra pain to the animal during the process.
    "There are numerous types of stunning including the pneumatic stunner which delivers a blow to the head of the animal, captive bolt pistol which shatters the brain of the animal, electric water trough which delivers a electric shock to poultry, and electric brain stunner for sheep...The common factor in all these methods of stunning is causing extra pain to the animal above and beyond the pain experienced during the slaughter itself. For this reason, many scholars have declared that the act of stunning is extremely disliked and close to being impermissible...Stunning is a unacceptable action and the person who stuns will sinful for causing extra pain to the animal. However, the impermissibility of the act of stunning does not influence the lawfulness of the animal which was stunned and does NOT necessarily mean that all stunned animals are also unlawful to consume."
    http://halaladvocates.net/site/our-issues/stunning-animals/

    So I don't get what the push is for (it seems it's to avoid the animal thrashing about when being slaughtered) - but I'm not an expert on this field.

    Peace.

    I am not knowledgeable enough to know if she bases her objection on the pain to the animal angle or acculturation or both. We would have to inquire into her intent and motivation and I get into trouble in the comment section when I do that so I will leave it alone.

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  160. @unpc downunder
    When people with similar political views only socialise with people like themselves, they tend to reinforce each other views. Hence a political moderate who lives around lots of left-liberals will tend to become more liberal, while a moderate left-liberal who is surrounded by lots of left-wing people will move further to the left.

    What's happened over the last century of urbanisation is that many whites with liberal inclinations have moved to large cities where they have turned into staunch liberals and leftists. A hundred years ago most of them would have lived in smaller towns and cities where they would have had to socialise with a lot of people with more conservative political views.

    It also needs pointing out that there are now very few poor white people in large cities, Hence, liberal urban whites only see relatively wealthy whites and economically struggling minorities. This is one of the reasons why they tend to take the side of non-whites on immigration and law and order matters. In the geographic space they inhibit, only non-whites struggle economically.

    “Hence, liberal urban whites only see relatively wealthy whites and economically struggling minorities. ”

    I don’t think that’s true in Europe. Britain has a large urban, white underclass. Things aren’t quite as extreme in Germany, but you’d have to be blind not to see there are plenty of white proles around in urban settings. And where I live (and it’s not some slum area), you regularly can see native, German pensioners looking through trash cans for recyclable plastic bottles (Germany has a system where you get money for bringing recyclabe bottles to collecting centres).

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  161. Anon says: • Disclaimer

    Breaking News:
    Nicolas Dupont-Aignan (1,7 million votes in the first round) endorsed MLP.

    Read More
    • Replies: @for-the-record

    Breaking News:
    Nicolas Dupont-Aignan (1,7 million votes in the first round) endorsed MLP.
     
    I was watching this live, on the 8 pm news on France 2, and the reaction of the anchor (Laurent Delahousse) was one to behold, essentially accusing him of "treason" to the principles of France.

    The other interesting item on the news tonight was the extraordinary treatment of Orban at the European Parliament (yesterday actually) in a speech by Guy Verhofstadt, former Belgian PM and currently the EU's chief Brexit negotiator. Here is a video of it:


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVbHGcAGVbU
     
    A better example of the conflict between national rights and supra-national domination would be difficult to find.
    , @Anatoly Karlin
    Good to hear.

    I've always liked Dupont-Aignan, it is a pity that the person who is probably closest to Gaullism scores so low in the polls.
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  162. reiner Tor says: • Website
    @Sean
    IMO white men seem less relaxed about approaching women and just less ardent, although they are more faithful once in a relationship. I suppose that is a result of monogamy in which men traditionally had less hard work to do getting a girl and could stop when they got one. Black men are are adapted to getting girl after girl after girl . I don't know if it is properly called dominance. I suppose in places where blacks have the numbers or cases where they are bigger and stronger their physical threat dominance does drive white boys away from spare girls, but there are other ways blacks win out. I know of a a slightly chubby working class 21 year old girl , good looking (she turned heads in the street) and tall, who got well and truly seduced by an African after a few years away at university. She was mixing with an affluent upper middle class almost entirely white (the odd south Asian) crowd, and then had her first serious relationship with a young black man. She didn't talk to me about her love life obviously, but I heard from women she had confided in that that she found the posh white uni boys she went on dates with to be arrogant, which I suppose meant they acted like she wasn't all that sexy to them. The young black man who she fell for was described ( I avoided seeing them together) as slender and boyish average height and very, very dark skinned . He was well spoken through having been to a expensive private school, though he only worked in a bar.

    So blacks, from what can gather from this one case I know a bit about , hit the jackpot through making young women feel desirable. The girl had got a very striking hairstyle before this happened , bleached an with long extensions. A big blonde mane like that bespeaks seeking attention, and while the black boy was obviously not repulsive to her, I think he won her over by giving her the feeling she was the sexiest girl in the world . She was left distraught when he finished with her (later he, likely realising girls like that didn't grow on trees, tried to get her back but got nowhere) Blacks' testosterone makes than fight each other a lot, but they are also noticeably outgoing , joyous and of course more sexually driven. Every woman wants to be thought beautiful and desirable, and blacks are there for women unsatisfied by the attention they are getting. Testosterone-mediated driven-ness, extroversion and enjoyment of showing females a good time explains black success with white girls I think. There is polygyny in Africa and women choose in poligyny.

    IMO white men seem less relaxed about approaching women and just less ardent

    Might be true in comparison with blacks. Untrue in comparison with most Muslims. The reason they are often attractive is because they are socially dominant: they have brothers and cousins coming to their aid, and so have little fear of a fistfight, which lets them act dominantly in interactions with white guys. They also fear prison less, which makes them ever more fearsome. This is what makes them attractive to white women – women dig socially dominant guys.

    Read More
    • Replies: @anon

    The reason they are often attractive is because they are socially dominant
     
    They target girls of 12 and 13 because they're not attractive.

    It only happens because the agencies that would normally stop adults chasing 12 and 13 year old girls turn a blind eye because of their skin color.
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  163. reiner Tor says: • Website
    @iffen
    (Sorry, Iffen, I’m sure you’re a nice guy.)

    Thanks, this depends upon one's definition of nice. I know from past exchanges that defining the terms that we use is not high on your to do list. :)

    I take note that you are consistent in your application of group identity rather than individualism. I like consistency and strive for it myself.

    You misrepresent my views. I am not opposed to ethnic nationalism per se. I make no prescriptions for countries other than the US. I do offer opinions on other countries as to whether they have ethnic or civic nationalism and which I think is more appropriate for that country based mostly on their history but also current conditions and the prospect of changing conditions in the future.

    Did you note the speech where Le Pen said that halal slaughter should be banned?

    I judge individuals as individuals, but group membership is often a very strong mitigating circumstance. Except whites, who I expect to have full agency and so have no such mitigating circumstance. In other words, I hold whites more morally culpable, while I reckon that others have less agency which partially absolves them of their crimes, at least in a moral sense. This makes me a little bit like leftists – not a surprise, since I used to be one.

    Where I differ from leftists is that I think nonwhites should also be punished as if they were whites, exactly because of their predisposition to commit more crimes, or else we are encouraging them to be more criminal. (Actually, theoretically they should be punished more to counteract their predispositions. But I’d find such practice repulsive.)

    I gave up leftism when I realized it was unsustainable, but it didn’t make me less understanding to nonwhites, I still don’t consider them much morally responsible. Low-class Pakistani guys gang-rape white women because that’s just what they do. It’s like lions will eat people if you let them loose in a big city. The responsibility is not with the lions or with Talha’s dumber and embarrassing ethnic/religious brothers but with the whites who let them loose in our cities.

    Read More
    • Replies: @iffen
    very strong mitigating circumstance

    It might just be me, but I don't think this describes what you have written in the rest of your comment; more like nearly insurmountable would be more accurate.

    I lean to the left. Within the last few years I have had my Blank Slate and my Natural Rights knocked out from under me so the foundation has been destroyed. I am still trying to piece together a rational politics. It is quite clear to me (and others, of course) that Houston has a problem.

    , @Talha
    Hey rT,

    Talha’s dumber and embarrassing ethnic/religious brothers
     
    LOL! It's funny, but I hold Muslims far more morally culpable than anybody else precisely because we have a well-defined moral and ethical framework that does not allow for certain behaviors and these guys know it, but do it anyway.

    Peace.
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  164. reiner Tor says: • Website
    @Randal

    Is there any evidence that this is even possible…I mean that the percentage of homosexuals drastically increases?
     
    I see homosexuality as purely a behavioural issue, and it seems to me there can be no question that the numbers of homosexuals - meaning people who will engage in homosexual acts - changes according to environmental (and especially social) cues.

    The notorious prevalence of homosexual behaviour in coerced male only environments - boarding schools, prisons, naval ships (back when the crews were press-ganged and not self-selecting volunteers) renders that beyond reasonable doubt to my mind.

    The male sex drive is notoriously indiscriminate, notoriously confused with behavioural dominance/submission issues, and also notoriously variable according to activity. It's also likely in part a matter of learned responses.

    Homosexuality is a question of preference – I cannot imagine a heterosexual guy preferring to have sex with guys unless he had absolutely no other chance. Actually, even if I was dominant in a prison I’d very much prefer masturbation over sex with another guy. I really find the idea of sex with guys repulsive.

    The very existence of homosexual porn proves that there are guys who at least occasionally prefer sex with other guys. Greg Cochran wrote how bisexuality is actually rare.

    Greg Cochran’s explanation is the Gay Germ Theory, that some kind of bug (a virus, bacterium, or some other such thing) causes it. It could be a very common illness that somehow in a small percentage of its victims causes destruction in some part of the brain responsible for sexual preference. (Much like how polio cripples a very small percentage of those infected, with the vast majority either showing no symptoms or recovering after a serious illness.)

    The Gay Germ Theory’s weakness is how to explain the Samurai and the Spartans. Though it’s possible that somehow those populations got heavily infected and then cultural pressure forced those not infected to actually engage in homosexual acts. Another possibility is that neither the Spartans nor the Samurai were gay as we understand it – they didn’t really prefer having sex with other guys, but their culture did. In any event, they did have sex with their wives, too, so weren’t exclusively homosexual.

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  165. iffen says:
    @reiner Tor
    I judge individuals as individuals, but group membership is often a very strong mitigating circumstance. Except whites, who I expect to have full agency and so have no such mitigating circumstance. In other words, I hold whites more morally culpable, while I reckon that others have less agency which partially absolves them of their crimes, at least in a moral sense. This makes me a little bit like leftists - not a surprise, since I used to be one.

    Where I differ from leftists is that I think nonwhites should also be punished as if they were whites, exactly because of their predisposition to commit more crimes, or else we are encouraging them to be more criminal. (Actually, theoretically they should be punished more to counteract their predispositions. But I'd find such practice repulsive.)

    I gave up leftism when I realized it was unsustainable, but it didn't make me less understanding to nonwhites, I still don't consider them much morally responsible. Low-class Pakistani guys gang-rape white women because that's just what they do. It's like lions will eat people if you let them loose in a big city. The responsibility is not with the lions or with Talha's dumber and embarrassing ethnic/religious brothers but with the whites who let them loose in our cities.

    very strong mitigating circumstance

    It might just be me, but I don’t think this describes what you have written in the rest of your comment; more like nearly insurmountable would be more accurate.

    I lean to the left. Within the last few years I have had my Blank Slate and my Natural Rights knocked out from under me so the foundation has been destroyed. I am still trying to piece together a rational politics. It is quite clear to me (and others, of course) that Houston has a problem.

    Read More
    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    It's never really insurmountable on an individual level. People are not lions, it was a hyperbole. Those dumb gang-raping Muslims are people, too, and they surely know on some level (on many levels) that what they do is wrong, both morally and legally. But as a group, because of their lower average IQs, possibly higher sexually predatorial tendencies, etc., it's inevitable that statistically many more of them will commit such crimes than from a similar number of whites.
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  166. Another possibility is that neither the Spartans nor the Samurai were gay as we understand it

    I don’t know about Samurai, but if I understand correctly ancient Greek homosexuality was very different from homosexuality in Western countries today. It was mostly about a youth being “mentored” (or you could say, abused) by an older man. This was a phase however, the youth was eventually expected to marry a woman and procreate with her, for the good of his polis and the continuation of his lineage. Apart from the older man-youth type of relationships homosexuality was often regarded as shameful, especially if the passive partner was being anally penetrated (instead they did https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intercrural_sex ) which was seen as unmanly.
    Anyway, personally I don’t see any grave danger of homosexuality spreading. I may be in the minority here, but I don’t think a modern nationalist movement should focus on anti-feminism or anti-homosexuality, despite the excesses of some feminists and the LBGT movement. In my opinion, this would only alienate many potential supporters for little appreciable gain.

    Read More
    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    Cultural Marxism is shorting our civilization. Whatever is or seems harmful, they support it.

    I don't know if "gay marriage" is harmful per se or not. It surely opens the door to a number of other things (like, polygamy), which I would think are definitely harmful.

    With feminism, it is easy to see that it's harmful. For example, feminism strives to emasculate men, but only white men. It is harmful, definitely. Then, their important goals (like having 50% or at least 40% female MPs, female government ministers, etc.) can only be reached by affirmative action (which, by the way, also opens the door to other kinds of affirmative action), such affirmative action appointees will then make stupid decisions (or at least won't question others' stupid decisions - see what Steve Sailer wrote of how Colin Powell and Condi Rice weren't really helpful in Iraq etc.), because affirmative action appointees don't do good things.

    It's also only against white men, rarely against other men, like how a Swedish woman didn't want to press charges against the Iraqi who raped her because he might be sent back to Iraq etc. Feminism is cancer.

    But my most important reason to oppose feminism is that it insults my intelligence. It's so very very dumb, like Maoism or holocaust denial or reptilian or 911 truther conspiracy theories or something.
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  167. reiner Tor says: • Website
    @iffen
    very strong mitigating circumstance

    It might just be me, but I don't think this describes what you have written in the rest of your comment; more like nearly insurmountable would be more accurate.

    I lean to the left. Within the last few years I have had my Blank Slate and my Natural Rights knocked out from under me so the foundation has been destroyed. I am still trying to piece together a rational politics. It is quite clear to me (and others, of course) that Houston has a problem.

    It’s never really insurmountable on an individual level. People are not lions, it was a hyperbole. Those dumb gang-raping Muslims are people, too, and they surely know on some level (on many levels) that what they do is wrong, both morally and legally. But as a group, because of their lower average IQs, possibly higher sexually predatorial tendencies, etc., it’s inevitable that statistically many more of them will commit such crimes than from a similar number of whites.

    Read More
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  168. Talha says:
    @reiner Tor
    I judge individuals as individuals, but group membership is often a very strong mitigating circumstance. Except whites, who I expect to have full agency and so have no such mitigating circumstance. In other words, I hold whites more morally culpable, while I reckon that others have less agency which partially absolves them of their crimes, at least in a moral sense. This makes me a little bit like leftists - not a surprise, since I used to be one.

    Where I differ from leftists is that I think nonwhites should also be punished as if they were whites, exactly because of their predisposition to commit more crimes, or else we are encouraging them to be more criminal. (Actually, theoretically they should be punished more to counteract their predispositions. But I'd find such practice repulsive.)

    I gave up leftism when I realized it was unsustainable, but it didn't make me less understanding to nonwhites, I still don't consider them much morally responsible. Low-class Pakistani guys gang-rape white women because that's just what they do. It's like lions will eat people if you let them loose in a big city. The responsibility is not with the lions or with Talha's dumber and embarrassing ethnic/religious brothers but with the whites who let them loose in our cities.

    Hey rT,

    Talha’s dumber and embarrassing ethnic/religious brothers

    LOL! It’s funny, but I hold Muslims far more morally culpable than anybody else precisely because we have a well-defined moral and ethical framework that does not allow for certain behaviors and these guys know it, but do it anyway.

    Peace.

    Read More
    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    Talha,

    Yes, that's what I'd have expected of you based on your previous writings. In any event I think it's best if you hold members of your ingroup to the highest ethical standards.

    سلام عليكم

    (I wrote it without help from Google, I hope it's good. I have Arabic script on my computer, but my Arabic typing skills consist of trial and error - basically I try half the keyboard before finding the one letter I need.)

    , @anon

    we have a well-defined moral and ethical framework that does not allow for certain behaviors and these guys know it
     
    Not true.

    You have a well-defined moral and ethical framework which explicitly condones that behavior against non-muslims - with the proviso that behavior is condoned in the context of a legitimate jihad.

    So who is to say when a jihad is legitmate - their local Saudi funded preacher maybe?
    , @Hector_St_Clare
    Talha,

    I mean, you do realize that the rest of us have well defined moral and ethical frameworks as well, which also rule out sexually assaulting fifteen year old girls, right?

    For what it's worth, I'm also especially outraged by the South Asian rape gangs in England, not because I share a religion with them but because I'm also racially South Asian, and so their bad behavior is something I feel implicated in at least to a small degree.
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  169. @Anon
    Breaking News:
    Nicolas Dupont-Aignan (1,7 million votes in the first round) endorsed MLP.

    Breaking News:
    Nicolas Dupont-Aignan (1,7 million votes in the first round) endorsed MLP.

    I was watching this live, on the 8 pm news on France 2, and the reaction of the anchor (Laurent Delahousse) was one to behold, essentially accusing him of “treason” to the principles of France.

    The other interesting item on the news tonight was the extraordinary treatment of Orban at the European Parliament (yesterday actually) in a speech by Guy Verhofstadt, former Belgian PM and currently the EU’s chief Brexit negotiator. Here is a video of it:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVbHGcAGVbU

    A better example of the conflict between national rights and supra-national domination would be difficult to find.

    Read More
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  170. reiner Tor says: • Website
    @German_reader

    Another possibility is that neither the Spartans nor the Samurai were gay as we understand it
     
    I don't know about Samurai, but if I understand correctly ancient Greek homosexuality was very different from homosexuality in Western countries today. It was mostly about a youth being "mentored" (or you could say, abused) by an older man. This was a phase however, the youth was eventually expected to marry a woman and procreate with her, for the good of his polis and the continuation of his lineage. Apart from the older man-youth type of relationships homosexuality was often regarded as shameful, especially if the passive partner was being anally penetrated (instead they did https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intercrural_sex ) which was seen as unmanly.
    Anyway, personally I don't see any grave danger of homosexuality spreading. I may be in the minority here, but I don't think a modern nationalist movement should focus on anti-feminism or anti-homosexuality, despite the excesses of some feminists and the LBGT movement. In my opinion, this would only alienate many potential supporters for little appreciable gain.

    Cultural Marxism is shorting our civilization. Whatever is or seems harmful, they support it.

    I don’t know if “gay marriage” is harmful per se or not. It surely opens the door to a number of other things (like, polygamy), which I would think are definitely harmful.

    With feminism, it is easy to see that it’s harmful. For example, feminism strives to emasculate men, but only white men. It is harmful, definitely. Then, their important goals (like having 50% or at least 40% female MPs, female government ministers, etc.) can only be reached by affirmative action (which, by the way, also opens the door to other kinds of affirmative action), such affirmative action appointees will then make stupid decisions (or at least won’t question others’ stupid decisions – see what Steve Sailer wrote of how Colin Powell and Condi Rice weren’t really helpful in Iraq etc.), because affirmative action appointees don’t do good things.

    It’s also only against white men, rarely against other men, like how a Swedish woman didn’t want to press charges against the Iraqi who raped her because he might be sent back to Iraq etc. Feminism is cancer.

    But my most important reason to oppose feminism is that it insults my intelligence. It’s so very very dumb, like Maoism or holocaust denial or reptilian or 911 truther conspiracy theories or something.

    Read More
    • Replies: @German_reader

    "Then, their important goals (like having 50% or at least 40% female MPs, female government ministers, etc.) can only be reached by affirmative action (which, by the way, also opens the door to other kinds of affirmative action)"
     
    Well, I'm definitely against that kind of feminism.
    I do think though there's a real danger to just falling automatically into reactionary positions of the sort "Women's place is in the kitchen, they should give birth to as many children as possible and be subordinate to their husbands" or "Homosexuals should be shamed back into the closet". I do believe you're going to repel a lot of people with such positions. And who finds such positions appealing? Mostly reactionary religious types. Often the same kind of people who dream of some sort of alliance with Muslims to promote religious values and are rather positive on mass immigration (though admittedly in Europe at least there are now a lot of pro-homosexual Christians as well)...because you know, Muslims and Africans are such wonderful family people with great values, our common Abrahamic heritage, blablabla. I regard these people as my enemies and think pandering to their sensibilities is useless...they'll never come around to my view of things on the really important issues anyway.
    And there's at least some potential to actually use pro-women and even pro-homosexual arguments for immigration restriction. Point out that many immigrants come from countries where rape culture actually exists, and list the many, many cases that show they don't change their attitude towards women in Europe (you can even bring in some white identity politics by pointing out that women have always been treated much better in Europe than in most other parts of the world, or how un-European practices like polygamy are). Point out how reactionary Islam is and how ridiculous those claims of the headscarf standing for female empowerment actually are. Point out who actually assaults homosexual men (the organized LBGT movement is totally subversive of course, but a non-trivial member of homosexuals is well aware that certain immigrants are a threat to their physical safety, and it's not like homosexuals can't be nationalists...just think of Ernst Röhm :-) ).
    Of course you'll never get through to committed "progressives" with that kind of argument, but you might reach a lot of people who have doubts.
    , @Anon
    "Gay marriage" is harmful because it continues the undermining of the family as the foundation of civilization which has been a long and ongoing effort. I don't see it as that potent in itself, rather significant only as a mile-post in the long march into the night.

    Again, "gay marriage" is a measure, not an ideology, and so can do only limited damage, unlike feminism which, being an ideology, has many more such measures up its sleeve.
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  171. reiner Tor says: • Website
    @Talha
    Hey rT,

    Talha’s dumber and embarrassing ethnic/religious brothers
     
    LOL! It's funny, but I hold Muslims far more morally culpable than anybody else precisely because we have a well-defined moral and ethical framework that does not allow for certain behaviors and these guys know it, but do it anyway.

    Peace.

    Talha,

    Yes, that’s what I’d have expected of you based on your previous writings. In any event I think it’s best if you hold members of your ingroup to the highest ethical standards.

    سلام عليكم

    (I wrote it without help from Google, I hope it’s good. I have Arabic script on my computer, but my Arabic typing skills consist of trial and error – basically I try half the keyboard before finding the one letter I need.)

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    Hey rT,

    Wa alaikum (right back at you) - that was pretty good man! I honestly want places like the UK to deal with these guys with fists and not kid gloves in court. Do it the way these guys would be treated if they were non-Muslims trying to pull this crap in Muslim countries - there should be a zero tolerance for this behavior; ship them overseas if you want. Put the fear of God in them because they apparently haven't learned it on their own through the religion.

    Plus- as I pointed out in another post, these kind of guys are the most likely to go ballistic if they get into extremist circles:
    "Most of the new radicals are deeply immersed in youth culture: they go to nightclubs, pick up girls, smoke and drink. Nearly 50% of the jihadis in France, according to my database, have a history of petty crime – mainly drug dealing, but also acts of violence and, less frequently, armed robbery. A similar figure is found in Germany and the United States – including a surprising number of arrests for drunk driving. Their dress habits also conform to those of today’s youth: brands, baseball caps, hoods, in other words streetwear, and not even of the Islamic variety."
    https://www.theguardian.com/news/2017/apr/13/who-are-the-new-jihadis

    Peace.
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  172. @reiner Tor
    Cultural Marxism is shorting our civilization. Whatever is or seems harmful, they support it.

    I don't know if "gay marriage" is harmful per se or not. It surely opens the door to a number of other things (like, polygamy), which I would think are definitely harmful.

    With feminism, it is easy to see that it's harmful. For example, feminism strives to emasculate men, but only white men. It is harmful, definitely. Then, their important goals (like having 50% or at least 40% female MPs, female government ministers, etc.) can only be reached by affirmative action (which, by the way, also opens the door to other kinds of affirmative action), such affirmative action appointees will then make stupid decisions (or at least won't question others' stupid decisions - see what Steve Sailer wrote of how Colin Powell and Condi Rice weren't really helpful in Iraq etc.), because affirmative action appointees don't do good things.

    It's also only against white men, rarely against other men, like how a Swedish woman didn't want to press charges against the Iraqi who raped her because he might be sent back to Iraq etc. Feminism is cancer.

    But my most important reason to oppose feminism is that it insults my intelligence. It's so very very dumb, like Maoism or holocaust denial or reptilian or 911 truther conspiracy theories or something.

    “Then, their important goals (like having 50% or at least 40% female MPs, female government ministers, etc.) can only be reached by affirmative action (which, by the way, also opens the door to other kinds of affirmative action)”

    Well, I’m definitely against that kind of feminism.
    I do think though there’s a real danger to just falling automatically into reactionary positions of the sort “Women’s place is in the kitchen, they should give birth to as many children as possible and be subordinate to their husbands” or “Homosexuals should be shamed back into the closet”. I do believe you’re going to repel a lot of people with such positions. And who finds such positions appealing? Mostly reactionary religious types. Often the same kind of people who dream of some sort of alliance with Muslims to promote religious values and are rather positive on mass immigration (though admittedly in Europe at least there are now a lot of pro-homosexual Christians as well)…because you know, Muslims and Africans are such wonderful family people with great values, our common Abrahamic heritage, blablabla. I regard these people as my enemies and think pandering to their sensibilities is useless…they’ll never come around to my view of things on the really important issues anyway.
    And there’s at least some potential to actually use pro-women and even pro-homosexual arguments for immigration restriction. Point out that many immigrants come from countries where rape culture actually exists, and list the many, many cases that show they don’t change their attitude towards women in Europe (you can even bring in some white identity politics by pointing out that women have always been treated much better in Europe than in most other parts of the world, or how un-European practices like polygamy are). Point out how reactionary Islam is and how ridiculous those claims of the headscarf standing for female empowerment actually are. Point out who actually assaults homosexual men (the organized LBGT movement is totally subversive of course, but a non-trivial member of homosexuals is well aware that certain immigrants are a threat to their physical safety, and it’s not like homosexuals can’t be nationalists…just think of Ernst Röhm :-) ).
    Of course you’ll never get through to committed “progressives” with that kind of argument, but you might reach a lot of people who have doubts.

    Read More
    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    I agree with most of your points, though I don't think pointing out how women were better treated or considered more equal in Europe is somehow feminist. Though it's just a question of wording, anyway. If you call this "feminist light", then yes, I'm all for this kind of "feminist light" positions, though not only for political expediency but because I genuinely don't believe women should be oppressed like in Saudi Arabia.

    And yes, homosexuality is not really my focus at all. I don't care what they do.
    , @iffen
    just think of Ernst Röhm

    I don't think I would bring him up, people might want to know what happened to him.
    , @Anatoly Karlin

    and it’s not like homosexuals can’t be nationalists…just think of Ernst Röhm
     
    Also author of the best statement of political principles ever:

    Since I am an immature and wicked man, war and unrest appeal to me more than good bourgeois order. Brutality is respected, the people need wholesome fear. They want to fear someone. They want someone to frighten them and make them shudderingly submissive.
     
    PS. Fun fact. Russia's most famous gay rights activist Nikolay Alexeyev has steadily become a nationalist over the years to the extent that he is now palling round with the LDPR in between sending complaints the ECHR. This has resulted in him getting blacklisted from the globalist LGBT rights/promotion clique.
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  173. Anon says: • Disclaimer
    @reiner Tor
    Cultural Marxism is shorting our civilization. Whatever is or seems harmful, they support it.

    I don't know if "gay marriage" is harmful per se or not. It surely opens the door to a number of other things (like, polygamy), which I would think are definitely harmful.

    With feminism, it is easy to see that it's harmful. For example, feminism strives to emasculate men, but only white men. It is harmful, definitely. Then, their important goals (like having 50% or at least 40% female MPs, female government ministers, etc.) can only be reached by affirmative action (which, by the way, also opens the door to other kinds of affirmative action), such affirmative action appointees will then make stupid decisions (or at least won't question others' stupid decisions - see what Steve Sailer wrote of how Colin Powell and Condi Rice weren't really helpful in Iraq etc.), because affirmative action appointees don't do good things.

    It's also only against white men, rarely against other men, like how a Swedish woman didn't want to press charges against the Iraqi who raped her because he might be sent back to Iraq etc. Feminism is cancer.

    But my most important reason to oppose feminism is that it insults my intelligence. It's so very very dumb, like Maoism or holocaust denial or reptilian or 911 truther conspiracy theories or something.

    “Gay marriage” is harmful because it continues the undermining of the family as the foundation of civilization which has been a long and ongoing effort. I don’t see it as that potent in itself, rather significant only as a mile-post in the long march into the night.

    Again, “gay marriage” is a measure, not an ideology, and so can do only limited damage, unlike feminism which, being an ideology, has many more such measures up its sleeve.

    Read More
    • Agree: reiner Tor
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  174. anon says: • Disclaimer
    @Talha
    Hey rT,

    Talha’s dumber and embarrassing ethnic/religious brothers
     
    LOL! It's funny, but I hold Muslims far more morally culpable than anybody else precisely because we have a well-defined moral and ethical framework that does not allow for certain behaviors and these guys know it, but do it anyway.

    Peace.

    we have a well-defined moral and ethical framework that does not allow for certain behaviors and these guys know it

    Not true.

    You have a well-defined moral and ethical framework which explicitly condones that behavior against non-muslims – with the proviso that behavior is condoned in the context of a legitimate jihad.

    So who is to say when a jihad is legitmate – their local Saudi funded preacher maybe?

    Read More
    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    I think Talha is a member of an Islamic school which has a much more restrictive interpretation than you do, but I don't mind if you as an Islamic scholar try to convince him that his interpretation is wrong and yours is correct. In any event, I have little opinion on the question, and I'm just heavily opposed to the presence of huge Muslim masses in our lands, who are bound to cause problems to us and to themselves.
    , @Talha
    Hola Senor,

    explicitly condones that behavior against non-muslims
     
    Nonsense - show me what qualified Muslims scholars have approved of roving gangs of Pakistanis (or others) that groom and drug and rape young girls in non-Muslim countries. Don't give me your interpretation of our texts because that counts for zero since nobody in the Muslim world in history has ever cared about a non-Muslim opinion on a juridical matter. You have made a claim, pony up the evidence.

    So who is to say when a jihad is legitmate
     
    The qualified scholars capable of making that decision. Like they did when Afghanistan was invaded by USSR and Iraq was invaded by USA. Certainly, ethnic gangs of Pakistanis that frequent bars/clubs and drink and do drugs and fornicate with women are unqualified to present a legitimate opinion on the matter.

    preacher
     
    LOL! You think our framework is that simple?? Here have a read a short introductory article as to how proper fatwas are considered for soundness in just the Maliki school:
    https://bewley.virtualave.net/fatwa.html

    This is the book I was studying with my teachers in the school I follow before our teachers had mercy on us and let us move to a different text because of how complex it was:
    https://kitaabun.com/shopping3/product_info.php?products_id=3057

    Here is a qualified mufti who (will also be visiting our area in Chicago next weekend - very exited to see him again since he taught us a course on Marriage and Divorce 7 years ago) makes it clear that Muslims are to obey the law of the land in non-Muslim countries as part of our social contract:
    "In Dar al-Aman (such as many non-Muslim countries in the west), many of the injunctions and rulings are very similar to Muslim lands (dar al-Islam), thus the command of following the laws of the land would also apply in these non-Muslim lands. (See: Radd al-Muhtar)"
    http://www.daruliftaa.com/node/5852

    Peace.
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  175. reiner Tor says: • Website
    @German_reader

    "Then, their important goals (like having 50% or at least 40% female MPs, female government ministers, etc.) can only be reached by affirmative action (which, by the way, also opens the door to other kinds of affirmative action)"
     
    Well, I'm definitely against that kind of feminism.
    I do think though there's a real danger to just falling automatically into reactionary positions of the sort "Women's place is in the kitchen, they should give birth to as many children as possible and be subordinate to their husbands" or "Homosexuals should be shamed back into the closet". I do believe you're going to repel a lot of people with such positions. And who finds such positions appealing? Mostly reactionary religious types. Often the same kind of people who dream of some sort of alliance with Muslims to promote religious values and are rather positive on mass immigration (though admittedly in Europe at least there are now a lot of pro-homosexual Christians as well)...because you know, Muslims and Africans are such wonderful family people with great values, our common Abrahamic heritage, blablabla. I regard these people as my enemies and think pandering to their sensibilities is useless...they'll never come around to my view of things on the really important issues anyway.
    And there's at least some potential to actually use pro-women and even pro-homosexual arguments for immigration restriction. Point out that many immigrants come from countries where rape culture actually exists, and list the many, many cases that show they don't change their attitude towards women in Europe (you can even bring in some white identity politics by pointing out that women have always been treated much better in Europe than in most other parts of the world, or how un-European practices like polygamy are). Point out how reactionary Islam is and how ridiculous those claims of the headscarf standing for female empowerment actually are. Point out who actually assaults homosexual men (the organized LBGT movement is totally subversive of course, but a non-trivial member of homosexuals is well aware that certain immigrants are a threat to their physical safety, and it's not like homosexuals can't be nationalists...just think of Ernst Röhm :-) ).
    Of course you'll never get through to committed "progressives" with that kind of argument, but you might reach a lot of people who have doubts.

    I agree with most of your points, though I don’t think pointing out how women were better treated or considered more equal in Europe is somehow feminist. Though it’s just a question of wording, anyway. If you call this “feminist light”, then yes, I’m all for this kind of “feminist light” positions, though not only for political expediency but because I genuinely don’t believe women should be oppressed like in Saudi Arabia.

    And yes, homosexuality is not really my focus at all. I don’t care what they do.

    Read More
    • Replies: @German_reader

    I’m all for this kind of “feminist light” positions, though not only for political expediency but because I genuinely don’t believe women should be oppressed like in Saudi Arabia.
     
    So do I, of course.
    (I really need to remember to activate this "agree" button...I think I've never used it until now).
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  176. anon says: • Disclaimer
    @reiner Tor

    IMO white men seem less relaxed about approaching women and just less ardent
     
    Might be true in comparison with blacks. Untrue in comparison with most Muslims. The reason they are often attractive is because they are socially dominant: they have brothers and cousins coming to their aid, and so have little fear of a fistfight, which lets them act dominantly in interactions with white guys. They also fear prison less, which makes them ever more fearsome. This is what makes them attractive to white women - women dig socially dominant guys.

    The reason they are often attractive is because they are socially dominant

    They target girls of 12 and 13 because they’re not attractive.

    It only happens because the agencies that would normally stop adults chasing 12 and 13 year old girls turn a blind eye because of their skin color.

    Read More
    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    Occasionally they are attractive, a few such cases are mentioned here.
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  177. reiner Tor says: • Website
    @anon

    we have a well-defined moral and ethical framework that does not allow for certain behaviors and these guys know it
     
    Not true.

    You have a well-defined moral and ethical framework which explicitly condones that behavior against non-muslims - with the proviso that behavior is condoned in the context of a legitimate jihad.

    So who is to say when a jihad is legitmate - their local Saudi funded preacher maybe?

    I think Talha is a member of an Islamic school which has a much more restrictive interpretation than you do, but I don’t mind if you as an Islamic scholar try to convince him that his interpretation is wrong and yours is correct. In any event, I have little opinion on the question, and I’m just heavily opposed to the presence of huge Muslim masses in our lands, who are bound to cause problems to us and to themselves.

    Read More
    • Replies: @anon
    he's lying

    the Koran explicitly condones those behaviors be used against non-Muslims under certain conditions

    once you know he's lying you know he's acting in bad faith - which is useful info
    , @Talha
    Hey rT,

    member of an Islamic school which has a much more restrictive interpretation than you do
     
    Bro, not a single school condones this behavior - guaranteed. That non-Muslims think we are permitted to do this is irrelevant. Let's see if he comes back with evidence.

    Watch - if he responds, he's going to come back with Qur'anic verses and hadith showing that he thinks it's allowed. They always do. It just shows me how dangerous of a Muslim this guy would be if he converted in his present state of understanding.

    Peace.
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  178. reiner Tor says: • Website
    @anon

    The reason they are often attractive is because they are socially dominant
     
    They target girls of 12 and 13 because they're not attractive.

    It only happens because the agencies that would normally stop adults chasing 12 and 13 year old girls turn a blind eye because of their skin color.

    Occasionally they are attractive, a few such cases are mentioned here.

    Read More
    • Replies: @German_reader
    Maybe, but have you ever looked at the pictures of defendants in "grooming" cases which you can see in the Daily Mail? I don't think it's an exaggeration that you can see the consequences of generations of cousin marriage and inbreeding in their faces.
    , @anon
    if occasionally then it's not the main reason

    http://i1.mirror.co.uk/incoming/article2947614.ece/ALTERNATES/s615/Grooming-Gang.jpg
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  179. @reiner Tor
    I agree with most of your points, though I don't think pointing out how women were better treated or considered more equal in Europe is somehow feminist. Though it's just a question of wording, anyway. If you call this "feminist light", then yes, I'm all for this kind of "feminist light" positions, though not only for political expediency but because I genuinely don't believe women should be oppressed like in Saudi Arabia.

    And yes, homosexuality is not really my focus at all. I don't care what they do.

    I’m all for this kind of “feminist light” positions, though not only for political expediency but because I genuinely don’t believe women should be oppressed like in Saudi Arabia.

    So do I, of course.
    (I really need to remember to activate this “agree” button…I think I’ve never used it until now).

    Read More
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  180. @reiner Tor
    Occasionally they are attractive, a few such cases are mentioned here.

    Maybe, but have you ever looked at the pictures of defendants in “grooming” cases which you can see in the Daily Mail? I don’t think it’s an exaggeration that you can see the consequences of generations of cousin marriage and inbreeding in their faces.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Hector_St_Clare
    Amusingly, my own ethnic group (I'm Tamil mostly, with a bit of Anglo-Scots admixture) is very highly inbred too. In rural Tamil Nadu during the 1960s, the median degree of relatedness among spouses was equivalent to third cousins. Strangely enough it hasn't stopped TN from being one of the most, uh, civilized states in India (for lack of a better word).
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  181. anon says: • Disclaimer
    @reiner Tor
    I think Talha is a member of an Islamic school which has a much more restrictive interpretation than you do, but I don't mind if you as an Islamic scholar try to convince him that his interpretation is wrong and yours is correct. In any event, I have little opinion on the question, and I'm just heavily opposed to the presence of huge Muslim masses in our lands, who are bound to cause problems to us and to themselves.

    he’s lying

    the Koran explicitly condones those behaviors be used against non-Muslims under certain conditions

    once you know he’s lying you know he’s acting in bad faith – which is useful info

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    Oh noooo! The taqiyya card! Like I never expected that one - again! LOL!

    Try harder man, don't be lazy. Find me a fatwa from a qualified mufti - c'mon - it's got to be out there if it's that clear.

    Peace.
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  182. anon says: • Disclaimer
    @reiner Tor
    Occasionally they are attractive, a few such cases are mentioned here.

    if occasionally then it’s not the main reason

    Read More
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  183. Talha says:
    @anon

    we have a well-defined moral and ethical framework that does not allow for certain behaviors and these guys know it
     
    Not true.

    You have a well-defined moral and ethical framework which explicitly condones that behavior against non-muslims - with the proviso that behavior is condoned in the context of a legitimate jihad.

    So who is to say when a jihad is legitmate - their local Saudi funded preacher maybe?

    Hola Senor,

    explicitly condones that behavior against non-muslims

    Nonsense – show me what qualified Muslims scholars have approved of roving gangs of Pakistanis (or others) that groom and drug and rape young girls in non-Muslim countries. Don’t give me your interpretation of our texts because that counts for zero since nobody in the Muslim world in history has ever cared about a non-Muslim opinion on a juridical matter. You have made a claim, pony up the evidence.

    So who is to say when a jihad is legitmate

    The qualified scholars capable of making that decision. Like they did when Afghanistan was invaded by USSR and Iraq was invaded by USA. Certainly, ethnic gangs of Pakistanis that frequent bars/clubs and drink and do drugs and fornicate with women are unqualified to present a legitimate opinion on the matter.

    preacher

    LOL! You think our framework is that simple?? Here have a read a short introductory article as to how proper fatwas are considered for soundness in just the Maliki school:

    https://bewley.virtualave.net/fatwa.html

    This is the book I was studying with my teachers in the school I follow before our teachers had mercy on us and let us move to a different text because of how complex it was:

    https://kitaabun.com/shopping3/product_info.php?products_id=3057

    Here is a qualified mufti who (will also be visiting our area in Chicago next weekend – very exited to see him again since he taught us a course on Marriage and Divorce 7 years ago) makes it clear that Muslims are to obey the law of the land in non-Muslim countries as part of our social contract:
    “In Dar al-Aman (such as many non-Muslim countries in the west), many of the injunctions and rulings are very similar to Muslim lands (dar al-Islam), thus the command of following the laws of the land would also apply in these non-Muslim lands. (See: Radd al-Muhtar)”

    http://www.daruliftaa.com/node/5852

    Peace.

    Read More
    • Replies: @anon

    show me what qualified Muslims scholars
     
    you just proved my point
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  184. Talha says:
    @anon
    he's lying

    the Koran explicitly condones those behaviors be used against non-Muslims under certain conditions

    once you know he's lying you know he's acting in bad faith - which is useful info

    Oh noooo! The taqiyya card! Like I never expected that one – again! LOL!

    Try harder man, don’t be lazy. Find me a fatwa from a qualified mufti – c’mon – it’s got to be out there if it’s that clear.

    Peace.

    Read More
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  185. Talha says:
    @reiner Tor
    I think Talha is a member of an Islamic school which has a much more restrictive interpretation than you do, but I don't mind if you as an Islamic scholar try to convince him that his interpretation is wrong and yours is correct. In any event, I have little opinion on the question, and I'm just heavily opposed to the presence of huge Muslim masses in our lands, who are bound to cause problems to us and to themselves.

    Hey rT,

    member of an Islamic school which has a much more restrictive interpretation than you do

    Bro, not a single school condones this behavior – guaranteed. That non-Muslims think we are permitted to do this is irrelevant. Let’s see if he comes back with evidence.

    Watch – if he responds, he’s going to come back with Qur’anic verses and hadith showing that he thinks it’s allowed. They always do. It just shows me how dangerous of a Muslim this guy would be if he converted in his present state of understanding.

    Peace.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anon
    Do you get any converts like this, or people who claim to want to convert and think like this?

    What do you do in that scenario?

    RB (different anon)
    , @Hector_St_Clare
    Talha,

    I know very little about Islam, but I will say that watching atheists proof-text in the context of Christianity is usually alternately depressing and hilarious, because they very often have so little understanding of what the texts mean or of how Christians read their own scriptures and traditions. I wouldn't be surprised if the people opining on what Islam says about taqiya, rape, etc. are just about equally ignorant.
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  186. @Talha
    Hey rT,

    Talha’s dumber and embarrassing ethnic/religious brothers
     
    LOL! It's funny, but I hold Muslims far more morally culpable than anybody else precisely because we have a well-defined moral and ethical framework that does not allow for certain behaviors and these guys know it, but do it anyway.

    Peace.

    Talha,

    I mean, you do realize that the rest of us have well defined moral and ethical frameworks as well, which also rule out sexually assaulting fifteen year old girls, right?

    For what it’s worth, I’m also especially outraged by the South Asian rape gangs in England, not because I share a religion with them but because I’m also racially South Asian, and so their bad behavior is something I feel implicated in at least to a small degree.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    Hey Hector,

    I mean, you do realize that the rest of us have well defined moral and ethical frameworks as well
     
    Sure, but ours is very specific about this kind of sexual predation. Honestly, it is haram to even look at (let alone touch) any woman that is not your wife with lust - period. There is no school of law that disagrees on that point.

    Again, it pisses me off because these guys are into so much haram and only have a tangential relationship with Islam and then the religion gets blamed for this. These guys have no idea that their selfishness is going to bring down lightning and thunder on thousands of Muslims in the West because Europeans will get completely fed up if this kind of behavior continues.

    Peace.
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  187. Anon says: • Disclaimer
    @Talha
    Hey rT,

    member of an Islamic school which has a much more restrictive interpretation than you do
     
    Bro, not a single school condones this behavior - guaranteed. That non-Muslims think we are permitted to do this is irrelevant. Let's see if he comes back with evidence.

    Watch - if he responds, he's going to come back with Qur'anic verses and hadith showing that he thinks it's allowed. They always do. It just shows me how dangerous of a Muslim this guy would be if he converted in his present state of understanding.

    Peace.

    Do you get any converts like this, or people who claim to want to convert and think like this?

    What do you do in that scenario?

    RB (different anon)

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    Hey Anon (RB),

    Unfortunately, if he is a convert - he needs to be sat down and have a serious talking to because he is a security threat right now - stat - and I do not mean that as hyperbole. Converts that have this mentality are disproportionately represented in extremist-jihadi circles.

    What do you do in that scenario?
     
    I would point him to a scholar that would have to talk sense to him. If I knew he was going to make these views actionable - I would call the authorities. I have three sons - I am bringing them up under the wing of traditional Muslim scholars (and Sufi dhikr circles) so that someone else doesn't feed them a nonsense version of Islam (note also that most of the extremists are very ignorant about Islamic practice). I have had a talk with my wife and we both agreed that if we see signs of extremism in any of them and it looks like they will do something harmful to themselves and others - then I am calling the authorities on them. It is much better that they spend some time in jail for something they may have potentially done than destroy a bunch of lives and face the consequences on the Day of Judgement for murder and mayhem.

    Peace.
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  188. @Talha
    Hey rT,

    member of an Islamic school which has a much more restrictive interpretation than you do
     
    Bro, not a single school condones this behavior - guaranteed. That non-Muslims think we are permitted to do this is irrelevant. Let's see if he comes back with evidence.

    Watch - if he responds, he's going to come back with Qur'anic verses and hadith showing that he thinks it's allowed. They always do. It just shows me how dangerous of a Muslim this guy would be if he converted in his present state of understanding.

    Peace.

    Talha,

    I know very little about Islam, but I will say that watching atheists proof-text in the context of Christianity is usually alternately depressing and hilarious, because they very often have so little understanding of what the texts mean or of how Christians read their own scriptures and traditions. I wouldn’t be surprised if the people opining on what Islam says about taqiya, rape, etc. are just about equally ignorant.

    Read More
    • Replies: @German_reader
    If I understand correctly, the taqqiva thing is actually a Shia concept, developed when Shia were persecuted by Sunni...according to that it's ok to leave your religious identity ambiguous or even lie (?) about it to avoid persecution (and there seem to be a lot of strange sects in the Near East who don't make it clear to outsiders what exactly they are, as a survival mechanism).
    So that at least is probably somewhat of a myth in the form it's used by critics of Islam.
    That being said, I feel there are many legitimiate reasons for criticising Islam (and Christianity as well), even though many atheists may indeed be pretty ignorant.
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  189. Talha says:
    @reiner Tor
    Talha,

    Yes, that's what I'd have expected of you based on your previous writings. In any event I think it's best if you hold members of your ingroup to the highest ethical standards.

    سلام عليكم

    (I wrote it without help from Google, I hope it's good. I have Arabic script on my computer, but my Arabic typing skills consist of trial and error - basically I try half the keyboard before finding the one letter I need.)

    Hey rT,

    Wa alaikum (right back at you) – that was pretty good man! I honestly want places like the UK to deal with these guys with fists and not kid gloves in court. Do it the way these guys would be treated if they were non-Muslims trying to pull this crap in Muslim countries – there should be a zero tolerance for this behavior; ship them overseas if you want. Put the fear of God in them because they apparently haven’t learned it on their own through the religion.

    Plus- as I pointed out in another post, these kind of guys are the most likely to go ballistic if they get into extremist circles:
    “Most of the new radicals are deeply immersed in youth culture: they go to nightclubs, pick up girls, smoke and drink. Nearly 50% of the jihadis in France, according to my database, have a history of petty crime – mainly drug dealing, but also acts of violence and, less frequently, armed robbery. A similar figure is found in Germany and the United States – including a surprising number of arrests for drunk driving. Their dress habits also conform to those of today’s youth: brands, baseball caps, hoods, in other words streetwear, and not even of the Islamic variety.”

    https://www.theguardian.com/news/2017/apr/13/who-are-the-new-jihadis

    Peace.

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  190. Talha says:
    @Hector_St_Clare
    Talha,

    I mean, you do realize that the rest of us have well defined moral and ethical frameworks as well, which also rule out sexually assaulting fifteen year old girls, right?

    For what it's worth, I'm also especially outraged by the South Asian rape gangs in England, not because I share a religion with them but because I'm also racially South Asian, and so their bad behavior is something I feel implicated in at least to a small degree.

    Hey Hector,

    I mean, you do realize that the rest of us have well defined moral and ethical frameworks as well

    Sure, but ours is very specific about this kind of sexual predation. Honestly, it is haram to even look at (let alone touch) any woman that is not your wife with lust – period. There is no school of law that disagrees on that point.

    Again, it pisses me off because these guys are into so much haram and only have a tangential relationship with Islam and then the religion gets blamed for this. These guys have no idea that their selfishness is going to bring down lightning and thunder on thousands of Muslims in the West because Europeans will get completely fed up if this kind of behavior continues.

    Peace.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anon

    Sure, but ours is very specific
     
    Sure, so's everyone else's, except a few Spanish anarchists:


    They passed a resolution that if anyone, male or female, chanced to rouse the sexual feelings of another, it amounted to a gross and palpable interference with the freedom and happiness of that other ... They therefore carried with acclamation the proposition that such persons, if they refused to alleviate the suffering they had imposed on another by rousing sexual feeling, must be exiled from the town or village where they resided for a period long enough for all fires to be quenched.
     
    (J. Langdon-Davies, describing a CNT meeting in Zaragoza, referenced in Arnold Lunn, Spanish Rehearsal, p. 155)

    RB
    , @anon

    Sure, but ours is very specific about this kind of sexual predation.
     
    You're lying - rape is acceptable in a legitimate jihad, "what you take with the right arm."

    That's how you lie without technically lying - the caveat is a legitimate jihad needs to be called by a legitimate authority hence you can say Islam doesn't condone what Isis does e.g. take Yazidis as slaves - but it does. The difference is most muslims don't accept Isis as a legitimate authority.

    Honestly, it is haram to even look at (let alone touch) any woman that is not your wife with lust – period.
     
    The Koran has specific rules about not having sex with slave girls after you've beaten them too hard.
    , @Hector_St_Clare
    Talha,

    I don't actually think the rape problem among British Pakistanis is a religious thing, per se. It's a cultural thing. Hindus from northern India have horrific rape problems too. Ask any Indian woman whether they feel secure in Delhi, and be prepared to hear some horror stories.
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  191. Anon says: • Disclaimer

    Parisian men are mostly cuckois.

    Parisian women are mostly junglois feverois.

    Read More
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  192. Talha says:
    @Anon
    Do you get any converts like this, or people who claim to want to convert and think like this?

    What do you do in that scenario?

    RB (different anon)

    Hey Anon (RB),

    Unfortunately, if he is a convert – he needs to be sat down and have a serious talking to because he is a security threat right now – stat – and I do not mean that as hyperbole. Converts that have this mentality are disproportionately represented in extremist-jihadi circles.

    What do you do in that scenario?

    I would point him to a scholar that would have to talk sense to him. If I knew he was going to make these views actionable – I would call the authorities. I have three sons – I am bringing them up under the wing of traditional Muslim scholars (and Sufi dhikr circles) so that someone else doesn’t feed them a nonsense version of Islam (note also that most of the extremists are very ignorant about Islamic practice). I have had a talk with my wife and we both agreed that if we see signs of extremism in any of them and it looks like they will do something harmful to themselves and others – then I am calling the authorities on them. It is much better that they spend some time in jail for something they may have potentially done than destroy a bunch of lives and face the consequences on the Day of Judgement for murder and mayhem.

    Peace.

    Read More
    • Replies: @JL
    So, you live in Chicago and feel the need to develop contingency plans in the event your children show signs of religious extremism? Coming from you, that's pretty revealing. And frightening.
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  193. anon says: • Disclaimer
    @Talha
    Hola Senor,

    explicitly condones that behavior against non-muslims
     
    Nonsense - show me what qualified Muslims scholars have approved of roving gangs of Pakistanis (or others) that groom and drug and rape young girls in non-Muslim countries. Don't give me your interpretation of our texts because that counts for zero since nobody in the Muslim world in history has ever cared about a non-Muslim opinion on a juridical matter. You have made a claim, pony up the evidence.

    So who is to say when a jihad is legitmate
     
    The qualified scholars capable of making that decision. Like they did when Afghanistan was invaded by USSR and Iraq was invaded by USA. Certainly, ethnic gangs of Pakistanis that frequent bars/clubs and drink and do drugs and fornicate with women are unqualified to present a legitimate opinion on the matter.

    preacher
     
    LOL! You think our framework is that simple?? Here have a read a short introductory article as to how proper fatwas are considered for soundness in just the Maliki school:
    https://bewley.virtualave.net/fatwa.html

    This is the book I was studying with my teachers in the school I follow before our teachers had mercy on us and let us move to a different text because of how complex it was:
    https://kitaabun.com/shopping3/product_info.php?products_id=3057

    Here is a qualified mufti who (will also be visiting our area in Chicago next weekend - very exited to see him again since he taught us a course on Marriage and Divorce 7 years ago) makes it clear that Muslims are to obey the law of the land in non-Muslim countries as part of our social contract:
    "In Dar al-Aman (such as many non-Muslim countries in the west), many of the injunctions and rulings are very similar to Muslim lands (dar al-Islam), thus the command of following the laws of the land would also apply in these non-Muslim lands. (See: Radd al-Muhtar)"
    http://www.daruliftaa.com/node/5852

    Peace.

    show me what qualified Muslims scholars

    you just proved my point

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    Oh no!!! Ignorant Muslims have ignorant interpretations of the religion - and then they are doing crazy things!!! I never knew - I'm just going to have to apostate now because you've just knocked out the foundations of 1400 years of scholarship from under my feet.

    I should consider myself taught!

    Peace.
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  194. Anon says: • Disclaimer
    @Talha
    Hey Hector,

    I mean, you do realize that the rest of us have well defined moral and ethical frameworks as well
     
    Sure, but ours is very specific about this kind of sexual predation. Honestly, it is haram to even look at (let alone touch) any woman that is not your wife with lust - period. There is no school of law that disagrees on that point.

    Again, it pisses me off because these guys are into so much haram and only have a tangential relationship with Islam and then the religion gets blamed for this. These guys have no idea that their selfishness is going to bring down lightning and thunder on thousands of Muslims in the West because Europeans will get completely fed up if this kind of behavior continues.

    Peace.

    Sure, but ours is very specific

    Sure, so’s everyone else’s, except a few Spanish anarchists:

    They passed a resolution that if anyone, male or female, chanced to rouse the sexual feelings of another, it amounted to a gross and palpable interference with the freedom and happiness of that other … They therefore carried with acclamation the proposition that such persons, if they refused to alleviate the suffering they had imposed on another by rousing sexual feeling, must be exiled from the town or village where they resided for a period long enough for all fires to be quenched.

    (J. Langdon-Davies, describing a CNT meeting in Zaragoza, referenced in Arnold Lunn, Spanish Rehearsal, p. 155)

    RB

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  195. iffen says:
    @German_reader

    "Then, their important goals (like having 50% or at least 40% female MPs, female government ministers, etc.) can only be reached by affirmative action (which, by the way, also opens the door to other kinds of affirmative action)"
     
    Well, I'm definitely against that kind of feminism.
    I do think though there's a real danger to just falling automatically into reactionary positions of the sort "Women's place is in the kitchen, they should give birth to as many children as possible and be subordinate to their husbands" or "Homosexuals should be shamed back into the closet". I do believe you're going to repel a lot of people with such positions. And who finds such positions appealing? Mostly reactionary religious types. Often the same kind of people who dream of some sort of alliance with Muslims to promote religious values and are rather positive on mass immigration (though admittedly in Europe at least there are now a lot of pro-homosexual Christians as well)...because you know, Muslims and Africans are such wonderful family people with great values, our common Abrahamic heritage, blablabla. I regard these people as my enemies and think pandering to their sensibilities is useless...they'll never come around to my view of things on the really important issues anyway.
    And there's at least some potential to actually use pro-women and even pro-homosexual arguments for immigration restriction. Point out that many immigrants come from countries where rape culture actually exists, and list the many, many cases that show they don't change their attitude towards women in Europe (you can even bring in some white identity politics by pointing out that women have always been treated much better in Europe than in most other parts of the world, or how un-European practices like polygamy are). Point out how reactionary Islam is and how ridiculous those claims of the headscarf standing for female empowerment actually are. Point out who actually assaults homosexual men (the organized LBGT movement is totally subversive of course, but a non-trivial member of homosexuals is well aware that certain immigrants are a threat to their physical safety, and it's not like homosexuals can't be nationalists...just think of Ernst Röhm :-) ).
    Of course you'll never get through to committed "progressives" with that kind of argument, but you might reach a lot of people who have doubts.

    just think of Ernst Röhm

    I don’t think I would bring him up, people might want to know what happened to him.

    Read More
    • Replies: @German_reader
    Well, he was a victim of homophobia of course...maybe the LGBT movement should commemorate him as one of their martyrs?
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  196. anon says: • Disclaimer
    @Talha
    Hey Hector,

    I mean, you do realize that the rest of us have well defined moral and ethical frameworks as well
     
    Sure, but ours is very specific about this kind of sexual predation. Honestly, it is haram to even look at (let alone touch) any woman that is not your wife with lust - period. There is no school of law that disagrees on that point.

    Again, it pisses me off because these guys are into so much haram and only have a tangential relationship with Islam and then the religion gets blamed for this. These guys have no idea that their selfishness is going to bring down lightning and thunder on thousands of Muslims in the West because Europeans will get completely fed up if this kind of behavior continues.

    Peace.

    Sure, but ours is very specific about this kind of sexual predation.

    You’re lying – rape is acceptable in a legitimate jihad, “what you take with the right arm.”

    That’s how you lie without technically lying – the caveat is a legitimate jihad needs to be called by a legitimate authority hence you can say Islam doesn’t condone what Isis does e.g. take Yazidis as slaves – but it does. The difference is most muslims don’t accept Isis as a legitimate authority.

    Honestly, it is haram to even look at (let alone touch) any woman that is not your wife with lust – period.

    The Koran has specific rules about not having sex with slave girls after you’ve beaten them too hard.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    C'mon bro - try harder - what in "qualified Muslims scholars" does not compute to you.

    rape is acceptable in a legitimate jihad
     
    1) Find me an opinion from our qualified scholarship that states this is the case.
    2) Find me an opinion from our qualified scholarship that states Muslims in the West can go jihadi in the countries in which they reside.

    I'm right here waiting for citations to fatwas.

    Ho dang! Shafi'i school in the house:
    http://www.livingislam.org/maa/dcmm_e.html

    Peace.
    , @Hector_St_Clare
    Islam sanctions sex with slaves, correct. No one denies this. The victims in Rotherham were legally free women (or children really) so what does that have to do with anything?
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  197. Talha says:
    @anon

    Sure, but ours is very specific about this kind of sexual predation.
     
    You're lying - rape is acceptable in a legitimate jihad, "what you take with the right arm."

    That's how you lie without technically lying - the caveat is a legitimate jihad needs to be called by a legitimate authority hence you can say Islam doesn't condone what Isis does e.g. take Yazidis as slaves - but it does. The difference is most muslims don't accept Isis as a legitimate authority.

    Honestly, it is haram to even look at (let alone touch) any woman that is not your wife with lust – period.
     
    The Koran has specific rules about not having sex with slave girls after you've beaten them too hard.

    C’mon bro – try harder – what in “qualified Muslims scholars” does not compute to you.

    rape is acceptable in a legitimate jihad

    1) Find me an opinion from our qualified scholarship that states this is the case.
    2) Find me an opinion from our qualified scholarship that states Muslims in the West can go jihadi in the countries in which they reside.

    I’m right here waiting for citations to fatwas.

    Ho dang! Shafi’i school in the house:

    http://www.livingislam.org/maa/dcmm_e.html

    Peace.

    Read More
    • Replies: @anon
    are you denying there's a rule about not having sex with slave girls if you've beaten them too hard?
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  198. Talha says:
    @anon

    show me what qualified Muslims scholars
     
    you just proved my point

    Oh no!!! Ignorant Muslims have ignorant interpretations of the religion – and then they are doing crazy things!!! I never knew – I’m just going to have to apostate now because you’ve just knocked out the foundations of 1400 years of scholarship from under my feet.

    I should consider myself taught!

    Peace.

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  199. anon says: • Disclaimer
    @Talha
    C'mon bro - try harder - what in "qualified Muslims scholars" does not compute to you.

    rape is acceptable in a legitimate jihad
     
    1) Find me an opinion from our qualified scholarship that states this is the case.
    2) Find me an opinion from our qualified scholarship that states Muslims in the West can go jihadi in the countries in which they reside.

    I'm right here waiting for citations to fatwas.

    Ho dang! Shafi'i school in the house:
    http://www.livingislam.org/maa/dcmm_e.html

    Peace.

    are you denying there’s a rule about not having sex with slave girls if you’ve beaten them too hard?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    I've never come across something that confusing. I need a citation from a proper qualified Muslim authority - what don't you understand about this?

    For all I know -you are referencing something from a non-existent school (like that of Imams Tabari [ra] or Dhahiri [ra]) which died out centuries ago. Or you're making it up. The burden of proof is on you - I can't say prove to me that your mom's not a whore. I am obligated to provide the evidence in an accusation. And your word is not qualified because - frankly - you are a non-Muslim and your opinion on any religious matters is completely irrelevant - this is our religion, we come up with the parameters. If you don't like it, invent your own.

    Peace.
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  200. iffen says:

    There’s a lot to consider in these sex grooming cases.

    I think that we should ask ourselves whether or not most of these girls were not failed by their society.

    Read More
    • Replies: @anon
    of course - the people whose job it was to prevent packs of adult men preying on 12 and 13 year old girls turned a blind eye because of the predators' skin color and religion
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  201. @iffen
    just think of Ernst Röhm

    I don't think I would bring him up, people might want to know what happened to him.

    Well, he was a victim of homophobia of course…maybe the LGBT movement should commemorate him as one of their martyrs?

    Read More
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  202. anon says: • Disclaimer
    @iffen
    There's a lot to consider in these sex grooming cases.

    I think that we should ask ourselves whether or not most of these girls were not failed by their society.

    of course – the people whose job it was to prevent packs of adult men preying on 12 and 13 year old girls turned a blind eye because of the predators’ skin color and religion

    Read More
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  203. Talha says:
    @anon
    are you denying there's a rule about not having sex with slave girls if you've beaten them too hard?

    I’ve never come across something that confusing. I need a citation from a proper qualified Muslim authority – what don’t you understand about this?

    For all I know -you are referencing something from a non-existent school (like that of Imams Tabari [ra] or Dhahiri [ra]) which died out centuries ago. Or you’re making it up. The burden of proof is on you – I can’t say prove to me that your mom’s not a whore. I am obligated to provide the evidence in an accusation. And your word is not qualified because – frankly – you are a non-Muslim and your opinion on any religious matters is completely irrelevant – this is our religion, we come up with the parameters. If you don’t like it, invent your own.

    Peace.

    Read More
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  204. @Hector_St_Clare
    Talha,

    I know very little about Islam, but I will say that watching atheists proof-text in the context of Christianity is usually alternately depressing and hilarious, because they very often have so little understanding of what the texts mean or of how Christians read their own scriptures and traditions. I wouldn't be surprised if the people opining on what Islam says about taqiya, rape, etc. are just about equally ignorant.

    If I understand correctly, the taqqiva thing is actually a Shia concept, developed when Shia were persecuted by Sunni…according to that it’s ok to leave your religious identity ambiguous or even lie (?) about it to avoid persecution (and there seem to be a lot of strange sects in the Near East who don’t make it clear to outsiders what exactly they are, as a survival mechanism).
    So that at least is probably somewhat of a myth in the form it’s used by critics of Islam.
    That being said, I feel there are many legitimiate reasons for criticising Islam (and Christianity as well), even though many atheists may indeed be pretty ignorant.

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  205. @Anon
    Breaking News:
    Nicolas Dupont-Aignan (1,7 million votes in the first round) endorsed MLP.

    Good to hear.

    I’ve always liked Dupont-Aignan, it is a pity that the person who is probably closest to Gaullism scores so low in the polls.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Hector_St_Clare
    Anatoly,

    I figured my politics would assign me either Le Pen or one of the communists, when I took that online poll, but it assigned me Dupont-Aignan.

    Perhaps this is because I'm not really as cool as all that with Melenchon's brand of socialism. I like his ideas about confiscatory taxation a hell of a lot, but I'm distinctly turned off by the French 35-hour workweek and by his interest in reducing working hours even further. My own brand of economic leftism inclines to a world with more Alexey Stakhanovs and fewer Pajama Boys.
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  206. @German_reader

    "Then, their important goals (like having 50% or at least 40% female MPs, female government ministers, etc.) can only be reached by affirmative action (which, by the way, also opens the door to other kinds of affirmative action)"
     
    Well, I'm definitely against that kind of feminism.
    I do think though there's a real danger to just falling automatically into reactionary positions of the sort "Women's place is in the kitchen, they should give birth to as many children as possible and be subordinate to their husbands" or "Homosexuals should be shamed back into the closet". I do believe you're going to repel a lot of people with such positions. And who finds such positions appealing? Mostly reactionary religious types. Often the same kind of people who dream of some sort of alliance with Muslims to promote religious values and are rather positive on mass immigration (though admittedly in Europe at least there are now a lot of pro-homosexual Christians as well)...because you know, Muslims and Africans are such wonderful family people with great values, our common Abrahamic heritage, blablabla. I regard these people as my enemies and think pandering to their sensibilities is useless...they'll never come around to my view of things on the really important issues anyway.
    And there's at least some potential to actually use pro-women and even pro-homosexual arguments for immigration restriction. Point out that many immigrants come from countries where rape culture actually exists, and list the many, many cases that show they don't change their attitude towards women in Europe (you can even bring in some white identity politics by pointing out that women have always been treated much better in Europe than in most other parts of the world, or how un-European practices like polygamy are). Point out how reactionary Islam is and how ridiculous those claims of the headscarf standing for female empowerment actually are. Point out who actually assaults homosexual men (the organized LBGT movement is totally subversive of course, but a non-trivial member of homosexuals is well aware that certain immigrants are a threat to their physical safety, and it's not like homosexuals can't be nationalists...just think of Ernst Röhm :-) ).
    Of course you'll never get through to committed "progressives" with that kind of argument, but you might reach a lot of people who have doubts.

    and it’s not like homosexuals can’t be nationalists…just think of Ernst Röhm

    Also author of the best statement of political principles ever:

    Since I am an immature and wicked man, war and unrest appeal to me more than good bourgeois order. Brutality is respected, the people need wholesome fear. They want to fear someone. They want someone to frighten them and make them shudderingly submissive.

    PS. Fun fact. Russia’s most famous gay rights activist Nikolay Alexeyev has steadily become a nationalist over the years to the extent that he is now palling round with the LDPR in between sending complaints the ECHR. This has resulted in him getting blacklisted from the globalist LGBT rights/promotion clique.

    Read More
    • Replies: @German_reader

    They want someone to frighten them and make them shudderingly submissive.
     
    Yes, I guess he really was into dominance :-)
    I hope it's clear I was writing in jest, I'm not an admirer of Röhm and his cult of violent streetfighting (though he's admittedly a very interesting figure).
    As for what the people want, that's a mystery to me...seems like many are just fine with the way things are going.
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  207. @Talha
    Hey Hector,

    I mean, you do realize that the rest of us have well defined moral and ethical frameworks as well
     
    Sure, but ours is very specific about this kind of sexual predation. Honestly, it is haram to even look at (let alone touch) any woman that is not your wife with lust - period. There is no school of law that disagrees on that point.

    Again, it pisses me off because these guys are into so much haram and only have a tangential relationship with Islam and then the religion gets blamed for this. These guys have no idea that their selfishness is going to bring down lightning and thunder on thousands of Muslims in the West because Europeans will get completely fed up if this kind of behavior continues.

    Peace.

    Talha,

    I don’t actually think the rape problem among British Pakistanis is a religious thing, per se. It’s a cultural thing. Hindus from northern India have horrific rape problems too. Ask any Indian woman whether they feel secure in Delhi, and be prepared to hear some horror stories.

    Read More
    • Replies: @German_reader
    That's probably true, and clearly the perpetrators in Rotherham and similar cases weren't religious scholars, but mostly fairly ignorant people. However that doesn't mean there isn't a religious dimension to this imo. A lot of Muslims may not really know what's in the Koran (if I understand correctly, most can't even read, let alone really understand it), but they do have a feeling that they're superior compared to non-Muslims. Religion becomes a main element of their group identity and legitimizes antagonistic behaviour towards outsiders (e.g. even 20 years ago my father was called a kafir by Pakistani youths in Northern England). If you live with such a sharp mental division between believers and non-believers (the latter being regarded as morally worthless, and destined to hell anyway), it may make committing acts like those in Rotherham at least psychologically easier.
    , @Talha
    Hey Hector,

    Good point - I do remember reading (not too long ago) that women in India were protesting this en masse and asking for laws to be updated. That is truly a shame. I guess people like you and me have an obligation to help turn that franchise around. Though you guys are so far south you only have a tangential relationship with Northern India.

    I tell you man, India is more like Europe than a singular nation - sometimes I wonder how it keeps from falling apart (other than the normal military coercion). I have a co-worker from the Malabar area of Kerala - he speaks about the rest of India as if it's a different country altogether.

    Peace.
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  208. @Anatoly Karlin
    Good to hear.

    I've always liked Dupont-Aignan, it is a pity that the person who is probably closest to Gaullism scores so low in the polls.

    Anatoly,

    I figured my politics would assign me either Le Pen or one of the communists, when I took that online poll, but it assigned me Dupont-Aignan.

    Perhaps this is because I’m not really as cool as all that with Melenchon’s brand of socialism. I like his ideas about confiscatory taxation a hell of a lot, but I’m distinctly turned off by the French 35-hour workweek and by his interest in reducing working hours even further. My own brand of economic leftism inclines to a world with more Alexey Stakhanovs and fewer Pajama Boys.

    Read More
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  209. @anon

    Sure, but ours is very specific about this kind of sexual predation.
     
    You're lying - rape is acceptable in a legitimate jihad, "what you take with the right arm."

    That's how you lie without technically lying - the caveat is a legitimate jihad needs to be called by a legitimate authority hence you can say Islam doesn't condone what Isis does e.g. take Yazidis as slaves - but it does. The difference is most muslims don't accept Isis as a legitimate authority.

    Honestly, it is haram to even look at (let alone touch) any woman that is not your wife with lust – period.
     
    The Koran has specific rules about not having sex with slave girls after you've beaten them too hard.

    Islam sanctions sex with slaves, correct. No one denies this. The victims in Rotherham were legally free women (or children really) so what does that have to do with anything?

    Read More
    • Replies: @anon

    Honestly, it is haram to even look at (let alone touch) any woman that is not your wife with lust – period.
     
    Just pointing out Talha lies about Islam.
    , @iffen
    so what does that have to do with anything?

    I means Islam needs to stop sanctioning slavery and sex with slaves.
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  210. @Anatoly Karlin

    and it’s not like homosexuals can’t be nationalists…just think of Ernst Röhm
     
    Also author of the best statement of political principles ever:

    Since I am an immature and wicked man, war and unrest appeal to me more than good bourgeois order. Brutality is respected, the people need wholesome fear. They want to fear someone. They want someone to frighten them and make them shudderingly submissive.
     
    PS. Fun fact. Russia's most famous gay rights activist Nikolay Alexeyev has steadily become a nationalist over the years to the extent that he is now palling round with the LDPR in between sending complaints the ECHR. This has resulted in him getting blacklisted from the globalist LGBT rights/promotion clique.

    They want someone to frighten them and make them shudderingly submissive.

    Yes, I guess he really was into dominance :-)
    I hope it’s clear I was writing in jest, I’m not an admirer of Röhm and his cult of violent streetfighting (though he’s admittedly a very interesting figure).
    As for what the people want, that’s a mystery to me…seems like many are just fine with the way things are going.

    Read More
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  211. @German_reader
    Maybe, but have you ever looked at the pictures of defendants in "grooming" cases which you can see in the Daily Mail? I don't think it's an exaggeration that you can see the consequences of generations of cousin marriage and inbreeding in their faces.

    Amusingly, my own ethnic group (I’m Tamil mostly, with a bit of Anglo-Scots admixture) is very highly inbred too. In rural Tamil Nadu during the 1960s, the median degree of relatedness among spouses was equivalent to third cousins. Strangely enough it hasn’t stopped TN from being one of the most, uh, civilized states in India (for lack of a better word).

    Read More
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  212. @Hector_St_Clare
    Talha,

    I don't actually think the rape problem among British Pakistanis is a religious thing, per se. It's a cultural thing. Hindus from northern India have horrific rape problems too. Ask any Indian woman whether they feel secure in Delhi, and be prepared to hear some horror stories.

    That’s probably true, and clearly the perpetrators in Rotherham and similar cases weren’t religious scholars, but mostly fairly ignorant people. However that doesn’t mean there isn’t a religious dimension to this imo. A lot of Muslims may not really know what’s in the Koran (if I understand correctly, most can’t even read, let alone really understand it), but they do have a feeling that they’re superior compared to non-Muslims. Religion becomes a main element of their group identity and legitimizes antagonistic behaviour towards outsiders (e.g. even 20 years ago my father was called a kafir by Pakistani youths in Northern England). If you live with such a sharp mental division between believers and non-believers (the latter being regarded as morally worthless, and destined to hell anyway), it may make committing acts like those in Rotherham at least psychologically easier.

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  213. anon says: • Disclaimer
    @Hector_St_Clare
    Islam sanctions sex with slaves, correct. No one denies this. The victims in Rotherham were legally free women (or children really) so what does that have to do with anything?

    Honestly, it is haram to even look at (let alone touch) any woman that is not your wife with lust – period.

    Just pointing out Talha lies about Islam.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    "Allama Ibn Abidin writes in his Radd al-Muhtar:
    'If one fears Fitna or lust, then it will be Haram for him to look at the face of a woman. This was in the early days. However, in our times (Ibn Abidin’s), one is not allowed to look at the face of a non-Mahram* woman, not because it’s part of the Awra**, rather due to Fitna.' (Radd al-Muhtar)"
    http://www.daruliftaa.com/node/5725

    Again from Mufti Ibn Adam (may God grant him a long life) referencing the Radd al-Muhtar which is the book one has to master to become a mufti in the Hanafi school around the world.
    http://kitaabun.com/shopping3/product_info.php?products_id=5536

    No other school needs to be referenced because it is well known the Hanafi school is the most permissive on this issue.

    Peace.

    *one not related by blood or marriage
    **nudity

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  214. Talha says:
    @anon

    Honestly, it is haram to even look at (let alone touch) any woman that is not your wife with lust – period.
     
    Just pointing out Talha lies about Islam.

    “Allama Ibn Abidin writes in his Radd al-Muhtar:
    ‘If one fears Fitna or lust, then it will be Haram for him to look at the face of a woman. This was in the early days. However, in our times (Ibn Abidin’s), one is not allowed to look at the face of a non-Mahram* woman, not because it’s part of the Awra**, rather due to Fitna.’ (Radd al-Muhtar)”

    http://www.daruliftaa.com/node/5725

    Again from Mufti Ibn Adam (may God grant him a long life) referencing the Radd al-Muhtar which is the book one has to master to become a mufti in the Hanafi school around the world.

    http://kitaabun.com/shopping3/product_info.php?products_id=5536

    No other school needs to be referenced because it is well known the Hanafi school is the most permissive on this issue.

    Peace.

    *one not related by blood or marriage
    **nudity

    Read More
    • Replies: @Greasy William
    Talha: If Muslims aren't even allowed to *look* at women that aren't their wives, then I know a lot of really bad Muslims.

    I didn't realize that Islam had such strict sexual mores, I had thought Islam was relatively laid back on that front.
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  215. Talha says:
    @Hector_St_Clare
    Talha,

    I don't actually think the rape problem among British Pakistanis is a religious thing, per se. It's a cultural thing. Hindus from northern India have horrific rape problems too. Ask any Indian woman whether they feel secure in Delhi, and be prepared to hear some horror stories.

    Hey Hector,

    Good point – I do remember reading (not too long ago) that women in India were protesting this en masse and asking for laws to be updated. That is truly a shame. I guess people like you and me have an obligation to help turn that franchise around. Though you guys are so far south you only have a tangential relationship with Northern India.

    I tell you man, India is more like Europe than a singular nation – sometimes I wonder how it keeps from falling apart (other than the normal military coercion). I have a co-worker from the Malabar area of Kerala – he speaks about the rest of India as if it’s a different country altogether.

    Peace.

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  216. Not Raul says:

    Let’s say Le Pen wins 37% (Karlin’s estimate). That’s still double what her father won in 2002.

    She should do even better in five years, unless the French economy booms like it hasn’t in decades, and there’s a huge reduction in crime and terrorism.

    Read More
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  217. @Talha
    "Allama Ibn Abidin writes in his Radd al-Muhtar:
    'If one fears Fitna or lust, then it will be Haram for him to look at the face of a woman. This was in the early days. However, in our times (Ibn Abidin’s), one is not allowed to look at the face of a non-Mahram* woman, not because it’s part of the Awra**, rather due to Fitna.' (Radd al-Muhtar)"
    http://www.daruliftaa.com/node/5725

    Again from Mufti Ibn Adam (may God grant him a long life) referencing the Radd al-Muhtar which is the book one has to master to become a mufti in the Hanafi school around the world.
    http://kitaabun.com/shopping3/product_info.php?products_id=5536

    No other school needs to be referenced because it is well known the Hanafi school is the most permissive on this issue.

    Peace.

    *one not related by blood or marriage
    **nudity

    Talha: If Muslims aren’t even allowed to *look* at women that aren’t their wives, then I know a lot of really bad Muslims.

    I didn’t realize that Islam had such strict sexual mores, I had thought Islam was relatively laid back on that front.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    Hey Greasy,

    Not with lust. But with our wives - oh yeah - game is on bro! Bada bing bada boom!

    "When I get that feeling, I need..."

    As my teachers (and really any of the paths of spiritual rectification in our tradition) will tell you; the easiest way to corrupt the heart is through the sins of the eyes. This is tazkiya 101.

    And yes - most don't keep to this rule, but it doesn't change just because we live in the age of smut - which, by the way Jews had way too much influence on - you gotta keep your boys in check bro! If one slips, one should ask for forgiveness - I mean it's not like one is automatically condemned to hell or something; we're weak and the Master knows it. In fact He made it clear that he made women the biggest weakness of men:
    "Beautified for men is the love of things they covet; women, children, heaps of gold and silver, fine branded horses, cattle and well-tilled land. This is the pleasure of the present world's life; but Allah, with Him is the most excellent abode." (3:14)

    Also - a man who keeps his eyes only to his wife will be blessed to go to bed with the most beautiful woman in the world every night.

    Are you telling me Orthodox Jews say it's ok to gaze at the opposite sex with lust?

    I know what the Christians say that (our mutual master) the Son of Mary (pbuh) said - whether they take it seriously or not:
    "27 You have heard that it was said, ‘Do not commit adultery.’ 28 But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to desire her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 If your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away! It is better to lose one of your members than to have your whole body thrown into hell."
    (Matthew 5:27-29)

    Peace.
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  218. Talha says:
    @Greasy William
    Talha: If Muslims aren't even allowed to *look* at women that aren't their wives, then I know a lot of really bad Muslims.

    I didn't realize that Islam had such strict sexual mores, I had thought Islam was relatively laid back on that front.

    Hey Greasy,

    Not with lust. But with our wives – oh yeah – game is on bro! Bada bing bada boom!

    “When I get that feeling, I need…”

    As my teachers (and really any of the paths of spiritual rectification in our tradition) will tell you; the easiest way to corrupt the heart is through the sins of the eyes. This is tazkiya 101.

    And yes – most don’t keep to this rule, but it doesn’t change just because we live in the age of smut – which, by the way Jews had way too much influence on – you gotta keep your boys in check bro! If one slips, one should ask for forgiveness – I mean it’s not like one is automatically condemned to hell or something; we’re weak and the Master knows it. In fact He made it clear that he made women the biggest weakness of men:
    “Beautified for men is the love of things they covet; women, children, heaps of gold and silver, fine branded horses, cattle and well-tilled land. This is the pleasure of the present world’s life; but Allah, with Him is the most excellent abode.” (3:14)

    Also – a man who keeps his eyes only to his wife will be blessed to go to bed with the most beautiful woman in the world every night.

    Are you telling me Orthodox Jews say it’s ok to gaze at the opposite sex with lust?

    I know what the Christians say that (our mutual master) the Son of Mary (pbuh) said – whether they take it seriously or not:
    “27 You have heard that it was said, ‘Do not commit adultery.’ 28 But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to desire her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 If your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away! It is better to lose one of your members than to have your whole body thrown into hell.”
    (Matthew 5:27-29)

    Peace.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Hector_St_Clare
    I know what the Christians say that (our mutual master) the Son of Mary (pbuh) said – whether they take it seriously or not:
    “27 You have heard that it was said, ‘Do not commit adultery.’ 28 But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to desire her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 If your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away! It is better to lose one of your members than to have your whole body thrown into hell.”
    (Matthew 5:27-29)


    There's certainly no denying that He said this, but I think a great many Christians today would hold that this (and many other aspects of the Jewish law) aren't binding on us any more, or that it only refers to some women (e.g. those whom it's illicit to desire, those who didn't consent to be looked at, etc..).

    I certainly admire the strength of your convictions, I just don't happen to share them.
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  219. JL says:
    @Talha
    Hey Anon (RB),

    Unfortunately, if he is a convert - he needs to be sat down and have a serious talking to because he is a security threat right now - stat - and I do not mean that as hyperbole. Converts that have this mentality are disproportionately represented in extremist-jihadi circles.

    What do you do in that scenario?
     
    I would point him to a scholar that would have to talk sense to him. If I knew he was going to make these views actionable - I would call the authorities. I have three sons - I am bringing them up under the wing of traditional Muslim scholars (and Sufi dhikr circles) so that someone else doesn't feed them a nonsense version of Islam (note also that most of the extremists are very ignorant about Islamic practice). I have had a talk with my wife and we both agreed that if we see signs of extremism in any of them and it looks like they will do something harmful to themselves and others - then I am calling the authorities on them. It is much better that they spend some time in jail for something they may have potentially done than destroy a bunch of lives and face the consequences on the Day of Judgement for murder and mayhem.

    Peace.

    So, you live in Chicago and feel the need to develop contingency plans in the event your children show signs of religious extremism? Coming from you, that’s pretty revealing. And frightening.

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  220. Are you telling me Orthodox Jews say it’s ok to gaze at the opposite sex with lust?

    No but I’m a pretty terrible Jew.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    Hey Greasy,

    The Abrahamic faiths have some divergences, but there are some principles that are form a common thread.

    I’m a pretty terrible Jew
     
    Well, the first step to rectification is recognition. You guys have a tradition of repentance, right?
    "God the Almighty said: 'O son of Adam, so long as you call upon Me and ask of Me, I shall forgive you for what you have done, and I shall not mind. O son of Adam, were your sins to reach the clouds of the sky and were you then to ask forgiveness of Me, I would forgive you. O son of Adam, were you to come to Me with sins nearly as great as the earth and were you then to face Me, ascribing no partner to Me, I would bring you forgiveness nearly as great as it.'" - reported in Tirmidhi

    You're nowhere close to these guys:
    "A story little told is that of Jews in Hollywood’s seedier cousin, the adult film industry. Perhaps we’d prefer to pretend that the ‘triple-exthnics’ didn’t exist, but there’s no getting away from the fact that secular Jews have played (and still continue to play) a disproportionate role throughout the adult film industry in America. Jewish involvement in pornography has a long history in the United States, as Jews have helped to transform a fringe subculture into what has become a primary constituent of Americana. These are the ‘true blue Jews’."
    http://www.jewishquarterly.org/issuearchive/articled325.html?articleid=38

    Peace.
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  221. @Talha
    Hey Greasy,

    Not with lust. But with our wives - oh yeah - game is on bro! Bada bing bada boom!

    "When I get that feeling, I need..."

    As my teachers (and really any of the paths of spiritual rectification in our tradition) will tell you; the easiest way to corrupt the heart is through the sins of the eyes. This is tazkiya 101.

    And yes - most don't keep to this rule, but it doesn't change just because we live in the age of smut - which, by the way Jews had way too much influence on - you gotta keep your boys in check bro! If one slips, one should ask for forgiveness - I mean it's not like one is automatically condemned to hell or something; we're weak and the Master knows it. In fact He made it clear that he made women the biggest weakness of men:
    "Beautified for men is the love of things they covet; women, children, heaps of gold and silver, fine branded horses, cattle and well-tilled land. This is the pleasure of the present world's life; but Allah, with Him is the most excellent abode." (3:14)

    Also - a man who keeps his eyes only to his wife will be blessed to go to bed with the most beautiful woman in the world every night.

    Are you telling me Orthodox Jews say it's ok to gaze at the opposite sex with lust?

    I know what the Christians say that (our mutual master) the Son of Mary (pbuh) said - whether they take it seriously or not:
    "27 You have heard that it was said, ‘Do not commit adultery.’ 28 But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to desire her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 If your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away! It is better to lose one of your members than to have your whole body thrown into hell."
    (Matthew 5:27-29)

    Peace.

    I know what the Christians say that (our mutual master) the Son of Mary (pbuh) said – whether they take it seriously or not:
    “27 You have heard that it was said, ‘Do not commit adultery.’ 28 But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to desire her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 If your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away! It is better to lose one of your members than to have your whole body thrown into hell.”
    (Matthew 5:27-29)

    There’s certainly no denying that He said this, but I think a great many Christians today would hold that this (and many other aspects of the Jewish law) aren’t binding on us any more, or that it only refers to some women (e.g. those whom it’s illicit to desire, those who didn’t consent to be looked at, etc..).

    I certainly admire the strength of your convictions, I just don’t happen to share them.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    Hey Hecctor,

    No problem - it's not my religion so I will not comment on what I believe is correct interpretation or not. That is up to the Christian scholars themselves. What I do know is that medieval Christians placed a great emphasis on modesty and public decency. Women often wore clothing that would be hardly distinguished from Muslim dress (head covered, loose and flowing) other than from a cultural perspective:
    https://www.google.com/search?q=medieval+european+dress&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjktsqn_snTAhULHGMKHeD3CXUQsAQIMg&biw=1536&bih=760

    This was normative for centuries. It is fairly recent that Christian women started dressing the way they did. What is funny is that when Christians came across other people in the time of the Age of Exploration was that a mark of the people they considered uncivilized in the world was lack of proper dress.

    If one removes emphasis of modesty in the public sphere, then one has to deal with the societal consequences.

    Peace.
    , @iffen
    Where do you live?

    Are you a hermit?

    How could you have missed all of these one-eyed Christians running around?
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  222. anon says: • Disclaimer

    The key point isn’t that Islam is bad. Everything condoned in the Koran e.g. the rape and killing of infidels during jihad, was considered completely normal at the time and everyone did it. If anything the restrictions – like not having sex with a slave after you’ve beaten her to the point of drawing blood – were probably *improvements* on existing behavior.

    The key point is the lying about what is in it.

    It’s not strange that Tokyo Rose lies about Islam – he’s engaged in stealth warfare – it’s the *entire* political-media class lying about Islam since 9/11 – that’s the kicker.

    I was liberal-ish before 9/11 and it wasn’t studying the koran etc afterwards that gradually turned me alt-right but the *entire* political-media class blatantly lying about what was in it.

    And getting back to the original point – Saudi has been funding jihadist preachers in jihadist mosques all over the world for 30+ years. So it doesn’t matter what some scholar in Egypt says -
    what matters is what have those individual Saudi-funded preachers in their local mosques been preaching to the men involved in the Muslim rape gangs

    http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/nation/muslim-leader-blames-women-for-sex-attacks/news-story/d8b6a183c6a976752cb07be532543afd

    Read More
    • Replies: @German_reader

    "Everything condoned in the Koran e.g. the rape and killing of infidels during jihad, was considered completely normal at the time and everyone did it. If anything the restrictions – like not having sex with a slave after you’ve beaten her to the point of drawing blood – were probably *improvements* on existing behavior."
     
    I don't think that's actually correct. I dislike much about Christianity, and of course the Church fathers accepted that slavery existed in their time, but I don't think you'll find anything in their writings that suggests it's permissible for a master to use a slave's body for sex. They certainly knew that such things happened in their time, but if they mentioned it, they were strongly against it.
    For much of the 7th century Near East Islam was a clear moral regression.
    , @Anon
    "The key point isn’t that Islam is bad. Everything condoned in the Koran e.g. the rape and killing of infidels during jihad, was considered completely normal at the time and everyone did it."

    Here's the problem with Islam.

    It combined tribalism with universalism.

    Judaism is a tribal religion. It applies to Jews, so if some of its laws and customs seem weird, it's a Jewish thing, so Jews can keep that stuff among themselves. It works as tribalism.

    Christianity is a universal religion. It is about credo than ethno. Thus, it emphasizes ideas and values. As for what to eat, how to dress, and nitty gritty cultural details, it say little or nothing. It's about what one believes in the heart. It works as universalism.

    Problem with Islam is it's both tribal and universal. If Jesus and others divorced the new universal Faith from the particularism of Jewish tribal laws and customs, Muhammad wedded all the Arabic customs(and some of Jewish laws) to a universal faith.
    To be a Christian, you don't have to eat, dress, or live like a member of the ancient tribe. But to be a Muslim, a lot of old customs have to be maintained.
    If Muhammad had developed Islam as a tribal religion for Arabs only --- a covenant between God and Arab folks --- , Islam would have made more sense. But as a universal religion, it says infidels must not only accept Allah as the one and only God but eat, dress, and live like Medieval Arabs.

    There is another problem with Islam vis-a-vis Judaism.
    It's true that God has many faces in the Old Testament. Sometimes, He can be cruel and ruthless and smite entire folks and tell Jews to whup the Canaanites and etc.
    But the Old Testament God is a Deity in development. He is always growing and changing and evolving. So, the nature of God in one part of the Bible is different from another part of the Bible. There is no Final truth about God. There are only fragments of God's manifestation through prophets, kings, and other folks.
    So, even though God tells Jews to do ruthless stuff in one part of the Old Testament, it doesn't mean He means that way to be the Only Way for all times and places. God has what might be called 'bad hair days'.
    Also, the fact that there are several Gospels in the New Testament with varying accounts suggest a Rashomon-ish need to interpret and reinterpret.

    In contrast, Muhammad is billed as the final and last Great Prophet. He is said to have corrected all the mistakes and fixed all the bugs in the Old and New Testaments. So, the stuff in the Koran are for all times and all places. It's not a case of Allah with 'bad hair day' acting especially cruel or ruthless on occasion. The Koran is The Truth for all times.

    In the Old Testament, the cruelty of God and Jews is historical. There are times when there is a need for Hiroshima-like ruthlessness. But there are times when God urges another way and tact for the Jews. Times change, and rules change.

    In contrast, the truth in the Koran is supposed to be timeless and eternal, for every moment of every year of every century. Thus, Allah becomes more one-dimensional than the God of Old Testament.

    A cynic might say Islam is Judaism-Christianity for dummies.

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  223. anon says: • Disclaimer

    The other key element of Islam which the political-media class won’t report which explains what is happening is the Muslim belief that you go to heaven if you die during jihad.

    This is the reason why so many jihadists come from a petty crime background and also why getting themselves killed in the process of massacring some non-Muslims is a key element – dying in the process of killing non-muslims is their path to redemption.

    (This is also why you get so many petty criminals from non-Muslim backgrounds converting in prison and engaging in jihadist attacks afterwards.)

    The media’s lies make no sense. If you know the truth it all makes perfect sense.

    Read More
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  224. Talha says:
    @Greasy William

    Are you telling me Orthodox Jews say it’s ok to gaze at the opposite sex with lust?
     
    No but I'm a pretty terrible Jew.

    Hey Greasy,

    The Abrahamic faiths have some divergences, but there are some principles that are form a common thread.

    I’m a pretty terrible Jew

    Well, the first step to rectification is recognition. You guys have a tradition of repentance, right?
    “God the Almighty said: ‘O son of Adam, so long as you call upon Me and ask of Me, I shall forgive you for what you have done, and I shall not mind. O son of Adam, were your sins to reach the clouds of the sky and were you then to ask forgiveness of Me, I would forgive you. O son of Adam, were you to come to Me with sins nearly as great as the earth and were you then to face Me, ascribing no partner to Me, I would bring you forgiveness nearly as great as it.’” – reported in Tirmidhi

    You’re nowhere close to these guys:
    “A story little told is that of Jews in Hollywood’s seedier cousin, the adult film industry. Perhaps we’d prefer to pretend that the ‘triple-exthnics’ didn’t exist, but there’s no getting away from the fact that secular Jews have played (and still continue to play) a disproportionate role throughout the adult film industry in America. Jewish involvement in pornography has a long history in the United States, as Jews have helped to transform a fringe subculture into what has become a primary constituent of Americana. These are the ‘true blue Jews’.”

    http://www.jewishquarterly.org/issuearchive/articled325.html?articleid=38

    Peace.

    Read More
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  225. @anon
    The key point isn't that Islam is bad. Everything condoned in the Koran e.g. the rape and killing of infidels during jihad, was considered completely normal at the time and everyone did it. If anything the restrictions - like not having sex with a slave after you've beaten her to the point of drawing blood - were probably *improvements* on existing behavior.

    The key point is the lying about what is in it.

    It's not strange that Tokyo Rose lies about Islam - he's engaged in stealth warfare - it's the *entire* political-media class lying about Islam since 9/11 - that's the kicker.

    I was liberal-ish before 9/11 and it wasn't studying the koran etc afterwards that gradually turned me alt-right but the *entire* political-media class blatantly lying about what was in it.

    And getting back to the original point - Saudi has been funding jihadist preachers in jihadist mosques all over the world for 30+ years. So it doesn't matter what some scholar in Egypt says -
    what matters is what have those individual Saudi-funded preachers in their local mosques been preaching to the men involved in the Muslim rape gangs

    http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/nation/muslim-leader-blames-women-for-sex-attacks/news-story/d8b6a183c6a976752cb07be532543afd

    “Everything condoned in the Koran e.g. the rape and killing of infidels during jihad, was considered completely normal at the time and everyone did it. If anything the restrictions – like not having sex with a slave after you’ve beaten her to the point of drawing blood – were probably *improvements* on existing behavior.”

    I don’t think that’s actually correct. I dislike much about Christianity, and of course the Church fathers accepted that slavery existed in their time, but I don’t think you’ll find anything in their writings that suggests it’s permissible for a master to use a slave’s body for sex. They certainly knew that such things happened in their time, but if they mentioned it, they were strongly against it.
    For much of the 7th century Near East Islam was a clear moral regression.

    Read More
    • Replies: @anon
    You're right; I wasn't clear. I meant the behavior was normal behavior for armies or tribal desert raiders at the time. To a large extent Islam promoted specific *improvements* on behavior that was normal at the time. It's just 14 centuries later those restrictions on 7th century behavior can be used to condone 7th century behavior.
    , @Talha
    Hey G_R,

    My wife being Swedish, I'm a history buff when it comes to their history. They happened to have been a very heavy slave society in their origins and Christianity eventually got rid of that. However, it is fairly clear that concubinage with slaves was recognized in law by the Church for those people. The only thing the Chruch really had a problem with (as it has always had) is if a man tried to combine a normal marriage along with a concubine on the side - that was seen as form of polygamy (and apparently fined at half the rate of normal polygamy):
    "As in all slaveholding societies male slaveholders had sexual access to their slaves, and often purchased women alone for that purpose...From a very early period the Church treated the concubine, sensu strictu, as a wife without benefit of legal marriage. That understanding of course excluded concubinage as a form of plural marriage; such a relationship could exist only where there was a possibility of Christian marriage."
    http://historyonline.chadwyck.co.uk/getImage?productsuffix=_studyunits&action=printview&in=gif&out=pdf&src=/pci/a263-1990-062-02-000001/conv/a263-1990-062-02-000001.pdf&IE=.pdf

    I believe this was practice among the Merovingian Franks (though you can look it up for confirmation) and Charles Martel had a concubine.

    Peace.
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  226. Talha says:
    @Hector_St_Clare
    I know what the Christians say that (our mutual master) the Son of Mary (pbuh) said – whether they take it seriously or not:
    “27 You have heard that it was said, ‘Do not commit adultery.’ 28 But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to desire her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 If your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away! It is better to lose one of your members than to have your whole body thrown into hell.”
    (Matthew 5:27-29)


    There's certainly no denying that He said this, but I think a great many Christians today would hold that this (and many other aspects of the Jewish law) aren't binding on us any more, or that it only refers to some women (e.g. those whom it's illicit to desire, those who didn't consent to be looked at, etc..).

    I certainly admire the strength of your convictions, I just don't happen to share them.

    Hey Hecctor,

    No problem – it’s not my religion so I will not comment on what I believe is correct interpretation or not. That is up to the Christian scholars themselves. What I do know is that medieval Christians placed a great emphasis on modesty and public decency. Women often wore clothing that would be hardly distinguished from Muslim dress (head covered, loose and flowing) other than from a cultural perspective:

    https://www.google.com/search?q=medieval+european+dress&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjktsqn_snTAhULHGMKHeD3CXUQsAQIMg&biw=1536&bih=760

    This was normative for centuries. It is fairly recent that Christian women started dressing the way they did. What is funny is that when Christians came across other people in the time of the Age of Exploration was that a mark of the people they considered uncivilized in the world was lack of proper dress.

    If one removes emphasis of modesty in the public sphere, then one has to deal with the societal consequences.

    Peace.

    Read More
    • Replies: @German_reader

    If one removes emphasis of modesty in the public sphere, then one has to deal with the societal consequences.
     
    And what exactly would those be? I hope you don't want to tell us that women dressing "immodestly" leads to more rapes or something of the sort.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  227. @Talha
    Hey Hecctor,

    No problem - it's not my religion so I will not comment on what I believe is correct interpretation or not. That is up to the Christian scholars themselves. What I do know is that medieval Christians placed a great emphasis on modesty and public decency. Women often wore clothing that would be hardly distinguished from Muslim dress (head covered, loose and flowing) other than from a cultural perspective:
    https://www.google.com/search?q=medieval+european+dress&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjktsqn_snTAhULHGMKHeD3CXUQsAQIMg&biw=1536&bih=760

    This was normative for centuries. It is fairly recent that Christian women started dressing the way they did. What is funny is that when Christians came across other people in the time of the Age of Exploration was that a mark of the people they considered uncivilized in the world was lack of proper dress.

    If one removes emphasis of modesty in the public sphere, then one has to deal with the societal consequences.

    Peace.

    If one removes emphasis of modesty in the public sphere, then one has to deal with the societal consequences.

    And what exactly would those be? I hope you don’t want to tell us that women dressing “immodestly” leads to more rapes or something of the sort.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    Hey G_R,

    I hope you don’t want to tell us that women dressing “immodestly” leads to more rapes or something of the sort.
     
    Of course it does - this a cause and effect relationship. It's not right for men to do that, but the fact is that some criminal elements will be catalyzed by it.

    One can also wear wads of money and lots of jewelry openly while walking through a seedy part of downtown. That doesn't justify them getting mugged or robbed - but the causal relationship is clear and logical to anybody.

    You don't have to watch out for those that obey the law - criminals don't and one attracts their attention to their own detriment.

    Peace.
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  228. anon says: • Disclaimer
    @German_reader

    "Everything condoned in the Koran e.g. the rape and killing of infidels during jihad, was considered completely normal at the time and everyone did it. If anything the restrictions – like not having sex with a slave after you’ve beaten her to the point of drawing blood – were probably *improvements* on existing behavior."
     
    I don't think that's actually correct. I dislike much about Christianity, and of course the Church fathers accepted that slavery existed in their time, but I don't think you'll find anything in their writings that suggests it's permissible for a master to use a slave's body for sex. They certainly knew that such things happened in their time, but if they mentioned it, they were strongly against it.
    For much of the 7th century Near East Islam was a clear moral regression.

    You’re right; I wasn’t clear. I meant the behavior was normal behavior for armies or tribal desert raiders at the time. To a large extent Islam promoted specific *improvements* on behavior that was normal at the time. It’s just 14 centuries later those restrictions on 7th century behavior can be used to condone 7th century behavior.

    Read More
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  229. Talha says:
    @German_reader

    "Everything condoned in the Koran e.g. the rape and killing of infidels during jihad, was considered completely normal at the time and everyone did it. If anything the restrictions – like not having sex with a slave after you’ve beaten her to the point of drawing blood – were probably *improvements* on existing behavior."
     
    I don't think that's actually correct. I dislike much about Christianity, and of course the Church fathers accepted that slavery existed in their time, but I don't think you'll find anything in their writings that suggests it's permissible for a master to use a slave's body for sex. They certainly knew that such things happened in their time, but if they mentioned it, they were strongly against it.
    For much of the 7th century Near East Islam was a clear moral regression.

    Hey G_R,

    My wife being Swedish, I’m a history buff when it comes to their history. They happened to have been a very heavy slave society in their origins and Christianity eventually got rid of that. However, it is fairly clear that concubinage with slaves was recognized in law by the Church for those people. The only thing the Chruch really had a problem with (as it has always had) is if a man tried to combine a normal marriage along with a concubine on the side – that was seen as form of polygamy (and apparently fined at half the rate of normal polygamy):
    “As in all slaveholding societies male slaveholders had sexual access to their slaves, and often purchased women alone for that purpose…From a very early period the Church treated the concubine, sensu strictu, as a wife without benefit of legal marriage. That understanding of course excluded concubinage as a form of plural marriage; such a relationship could exist only where there was a possibility of Christian marriage.”

    http://historyonline.chadwyck.co.uk/getImage?productsuffix=_studyunits&action=printview&in=gif&out=pdf&src=/pci/a263-1990-062-02-000001/conv/a263-1990-062-02-000001.pdf&IE=.pdf

    I believe this was practice among the Merovingian Franks (though you can look it up for confirmation) and Charles Martel had a concubine.

    Peace.

    Read More
    • Replies: @German_reader

    “As in all slaveholding societies male slaveholders had sexual access to their slaves, and often purchased women alone for that purpose…
     
    That statement refers more or less to pagan times in Scandinavia. I've yet to read the entire article (and it may well be that for some time the Church afforded a degree of toleration to existing practices), but it seems pretty clear that with increasing Christianization such practices were more and more regarded as illegitimate.
    , @German_reader

    As in all slaveholding societies male slaveholders had sexual access to their slaves, and often purchased women alone for that purpose…From a very early period the Church treated the concubine, sensu strictu, as a wife without benefit of legal marriage. That understanding of course excluded concubinage as a form of plural marriage; such a relationship could exist only where there was a possibility of Christian marriage.”
     
    There isn't really a logical connection between those two sentences (on p.1 and p.3 of the document). In fact the context of the 2nd sentence makes it clear that the Church regarded concubinage as "a monogamous and quasi-marital relationship in which a couple live together and often are faithful to each other" (p.2).
    That's very different from the question of whether a master can have sex with (a potentially unlimited number of) slaves.
    , @German_reader

    I believe this was practice among the Merovingian Franks (though you can look it up for confirmation) and Charles Martel had a concubine.
     
    It's true that semi-civilized warlords like Charles Martel (or his grandson Charlemagne) had sexual relations with several women who bore them children. However I've never seen anything to indicate that those women were slaves.
    And in any case, during the later Middle ages the Church strictly enforced monogamy even on the most powerful members of the laity. This is very different from the Islamic position.
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  230. Talha says:
    @German_reader

    If one removes emphasis of modesty in the public sphere, then one has to deal with the societal consequences.
     
    And what exactly would those be? I hope you don't want to tell us that women dressing "immodestly" leads to more rapes or something of the sort.

    Hey G_R,

    I hope you don’t want to tell us that women dressing “immodestly” leads to more rapes or something of the sort.

    Of course it does – this a cause and effect relationship. It’s not right for men to do that, but the fact is that some criminal elements will be catalyzed by it.

    One can also wear wads of money and lots of jewelry openly while walking through a seedy part of downtown. That doesn’t justify them getting mugged or robbed – but the causal relationship is clear and logical to anybody.

    You don’t have to watch out for those that obey the law – criminals don’t and one attracts their attention to their own detriment.

    Peace.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Hector_St_Clare
    I don't think there is a causative relationship at all. Rape rates in America at least have declined over time, even while women dress more 'provocatively'. Society has also gotten more stringent in our definition of rape- we now recognize that a man can rape his wife, for example. I also think that if you looked at police blotter records, you'd find that there isn't a strong correlation with what a rape victim was wearing the night of the attack. Most rapes are crimes of opportunity, and criminals choose their victims based on who seems the easiest to rape, not who looks the 'hottest'.

    In any case, you can turn that around and say, "if women choose to wear headscarves, it's inevitable that men are going to yell anti-Islamic insults and treat them badly." I don't think that's right either, and I don't think we should simply accept it and say "don't wear the head scarf then."

    You are correct that head covering and emphasis on female modesty were features of (most of) medieval Christendom as well. (One should hesitate to make generalizations about what Christians believed or practiced: we don't have an equivalent of the Jewish or Muslim 'law', there has been a certain element of antinomianism in Christinaity from the beginning as one would expect of a religion whose central claim is that Christ's death set us free from the law, and even the Bible is not taken as an uncreated authority in quite the sense that the Vedas, the Quran or the Torah are by Hindus, Muslims and Jews.) I think medieval Christendom was wrong about that, as they were about many other things. I think we were correct to grow out of that phase, and I would be very unhappy if someday Christians start re-adopting the older Christian codes about modesty, sexual ethics, etc.. in order to fit in with their Muslim neighbors.

    My own Christian faith is of a very heterodox, Gnostic-influenced variety, and I'm at least halfway convinced that the gnostics were right in their rejection of strict monotheism, the created world, and the Jewish moral law. I've moved in that direction more and more over the last few years, partly as a reaction to Islam. You are quite right to point out that there are a lot of theological and moral elements that orthodox Christianity and Islam share in common. My response is that this is a good reason for Christians to question and be more critical of their own tradition.
    , @German_reader

    Of course it does – this a cause and effect relationship. It’s not right for men to do that, but the fact is that some criminal elements will be catalyzed by it.
     
    I can't say I have much sympathy for that view, sorry. Probably most Westerners today don't. That difference in basic views of social relations is a prime reason why Islamic immigration to the West needs to end. Such incompatible views can only lead to conflict and civil strife.
    , @Expletive Deleted
    7th century Christian England unlike 7th-century Arabia shocker! Latest.
    After conversion

    It is told that there was then such perfect peace in Britain, wheresoever the dominion of King Edwin extended, that, as is still proverbially said, a woman with her new-born babe might walk throughout the island, from sea to sea, without receiving any harm. - Bede
     
    You could wear a diamond tiara, and a ballgown made of twenties through my town at night, and at worst you'd likely end up rather bedraggled, due to the eternal rains.
    Things seem to be different, where Diversity obtains.
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  231. @Talha
    Hey G_R,

    My wife being Swedish, I'm a history buff when it comes to their history. They happened to have been a very heavy slave society in their origins and Christianity eventually got rid of that. However, it is fairly clear that concubinage with slaves was recognized in law by the Church for those people. The only thing the Chruch really had a problem with (as it has always had) is if a man tried to combine a normal marriage along with a concubine on the side - that was seen as form of polygamy (and apparently fined at half the rate of normal polygamy):
    "As in all slaveholding societies male slaveholders had sexual access to their slaves, and often purchased women alone for that purpose...From a very early period the Church treated the concubine, sensu strictu, as a wife without benefit of legal marriage. That understanding of course excluded concubinage as a form of plural marriage; such a relationship could exist only where there was a possibility of Christian marriage."
    http://historyonline.chadwyck.co.uk/getImage?productsuffix=_studyunits&action=printview&in=gif&out=pdf&src=/pci/a263-1990-062-02-000001/conv/a263-1990-062-02-000001.pdf&IE=.pdf

    I believe this was practice among the Merovingian Franks (though you can look it up for confirmation) and Charles Martel had a concubine.

    Peace.

    “As in all slaveholding societies male slaveholders had sexual access to their slaves, and often purchased women alone for that purpose…

    That statement refers more or less to pagan times in Scandinavia. I’ve yet to read the entire article (and it may well be that for some time the Church afforded a degree of toleration to existing practices), but it seems pretty clear that with increasing Christianization such practices were more and more regarded as illegitimate.

    Read More
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  232. @Talha
    Hey G_R,

    I hope you don’t want to tell us that women dressing “immodestly” leads to more rapes or something of the sort.
     
    Of course it does - this a cause and effect relationship. It's not right for men to do that, but the fact is that some criminal elements will be catalyzed by it.

    One can also wear wads of money and lots of jewelry openly while walking through a seedy part of downtown. That doesn't justify them getting mugged or robbed - but the causal relationship is clear and logical to anybody.

    You don't have to watch out for those that obey the law - criminals don't and one attracts their attention to their own detriment.

    Peace.

    I don’t think there is a causative relationship at all. Rape rates in America at least have declined over time, even while women dress more ‘provocatively’. Society has also gotten more stringent in our definition of rape- we now recognize that a man can rape his wife, for example. I also think that if you looked at police blotter records, you’d find that there isn’t a strong correlation with what a rape victim was wearing the night of the attack. Most rapes are crimes of opportunity, and criminals choose their victims based on who seems the easiest to rape, not who looks the ‘hottest’.

    In any case, you can turn that around and say, “if women choose to wear headscarves, it’s inevitable that men are going to yell anti-Islamic insults and treat them badly.” I don’t think that’s right either, and I don’t think we should simply accept it and say “don’t wear the head scarf then.”

    You are correct that head covering and emphasis on female modesty were features of (most of) medieval Christendom as well. (One should hesitate to make generalizations about what Christians believed or practiced: we don’t have an equivalent of the Jewish or Muslim ‘law’, there has been a certain element of antinomianism in Christinaity from the beginning as one would expect of a religion whose central claim is that Christ’s death set us free from the law, and even the Bible is not taken as an uncreated authority in quite the sense that the Vedas, the Quran or the Torah are by Hindus, Muslims and Jews.) I think medieval Christendom was wrong about that, as they were about many other things. I think we were correct to grow out of that phase, and I would be very unhappy if someday Christians start re-adopting the older Christian codes about modesty, sexual ethics, etc.. in order to fit in with their Muslim neighbors.

    My own Christian faith is of a very heterodox, Gnostic-influenced variety, and I’m at least halfway convinced that the gnostics were right in their rejection of strict monotheism, the created world, and the Jewish moral law. I’ve moved in that direction more and more over the last few years, partly as a reaction to Islam. You are quite right to point out that there are a lot of theological and moral elements that orthodox Christianity and Islam share in common. My response is that this is a good reason for Christians to question and be more critical of their own tradition.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anon

    You are quite right to point out that there are a lot of theological and moral elements that orthodox Christianity and Islam share in common. My response is that this is a good reason for Christians to question and be more critical of their own tradition.My response is that this is a good reason for Christians to question and be more critical of their own tradition.
     
    Why? Assuming Christianity to be true, the things that Christianity and Islam share are the truths of Christianity that were too blindingly obvious for Mohammed to deny, given that he certainly had at least a vague understanding of the Christianity of his day.

    Consider that Christianity also shares a great deal with Stoicism and Neoplatonism, that Aristotelianism is compatible enough with Christianity to be the basis of the greatest system of Christian philosophy ever produced, and that the Jesuits did a fair job of doing the same with Confucianism!

    , @Talha
    Hey Hector,

    Most rapes are crimes of opportunity, and criminals choose their victims based on who seems the easiest to rape, not who looks the ‘hottest’.
     
    100% agree. The question is, given the same environmental opportunity, would it be more or less likely for the criminal to attack the woman based on if she is dressed modestly or has everything hanging out. The same thing with the robbing scenario that I mentioned; a man is vulnerable walking through a tough, isolated part of downtown - is he less likely to be robbed if he is counting his money in full view or less. You tell me.

    In any case, you can turn that around and say
     
    That's not the argument from the Muslim side though, Muslims obviously wear it as a religious mandate. I was talking about why Europe may want to introduce modesty back into society for its benefits.

    Look, there are entire aboriginal societies were women walk around wearing nothing but some beads or some straw skirts, etc. and I'm sure they don't get raped left and right. There are a whole lot of factors that are involved in this subject - partially cultural, as you mentioned.

    there are a lot of theological and moral elements that orthodox Christianity and Islam share in common
     
    I get along quite well with traditional Christians in many viewpoints - we see eye to eye on a lot of things. Generally, the divergence happens once ME politics is brought up or Israel - topics I try to avoid with them.

    Peace.
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  233. @Talha
    Hey G_R,

    I hope you don’t want to tell us that women dressing “immodestly” leads to more rapes or something of the sort.
     
    Of course it does - this a cause and effect relationship. It's not right for men to do that, but the fact is that some criminal elements will be catalyzed by it.

    One can also wear wads of money and lots of jewelry openly while walking through a seedy part of downtown. That doesn't justify them getting mugged or robbed - but the causal relationship is clear and logical to anybody.

    You don't have to watch out for those that obey the law - criminals don't and one attracts their attention to their own detriment.

    Peace.

    Of course it does – this a cause and effect relationship. It’s not right for men to do that, but the fact is that some criminal elements will be catalyzed by it.

    I can’t say I have much sympathy for that view, sorry. Probably most Westerners today don’t. That difference in basic views of social relations is a prime reason why Islamic immigration to the West needs to end. Such incompatible views can only lead to conflict and civil strife.

    Read More
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  234. @Talha
    Hey G_R,

    My wife being Swedish, I'm a history buff when it comes to their history. They happened to have been a very heavy slave society in their origins and Christianity eventually got rid of that. However, it is fairly clear that concubinage with slaves was recognized in law by the Church for those people. The only thing the Chruch really had a problem with (as it has always had) is if a man tried to combine a normal marriage along with a concubine on the side - that was seen as form of polygamy (and apparently fined at half the rate of normal polygamy):
    "As in all slaveholding societies male slaveholders had sexual access to their slaves, and often purchased women alone for that purpose...From a very early period the Church treated the concubine, sensu strictu, as a wife without benefit of legal marriage. That understanding of course excluded concubinage as a form of plural marriage; such a relationship could exist only where there was a possibility of Christian marriage."
    http://historyonline.chadwyck.co.uk/getImage?productsuffix=_studyunits&action=printview&in=gif&out=pdf&src=/pci/a263-1990-062-02-000001/conv/a263-1990-062-02-000001.pdf&IE=.pdf

    I believe this was practice among the Merovingian Franks (though you can look it up for confirmation) and Charles Martel had a concubine.

    Peace.

    As in all slaveholding societies male slaveholders had sexual access to their slaves, and often purchased women alone for that purpose…From a very early period the Church treated the concubine, sensu strictu, as a wife without benefit of legal marriage. That understanding of course excluded concubinage as a form of plural marriage; such a relationship could exist only where there was a possibility of Christian marriage.”

    There isn’t really a logical connection between those two sentences (on p.1 and p.3 of the document). In fact the context of the 2nd sentence makes it clear that the Church regarded concubinage as “a monogamous and quasi-marital relationship in which a couple live together and often are faithful to each other” (p.2).
    That’s very different from the question of whether a master can have sex with (a potentially unlimited number of) slaves.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    Hey G_R,

    That’s very different from the question of whether a master can have sex with (a potentially unlimited number of) slaves.
     
    100% correct - but that was not the question at hand. The question was did the church recognize the legitimacy of concubinage with slaves and it certainly did in certain contexts and limitations - for instance monogamy had to be observed. In Islam, limited polygamy has always been allowed and there is no limit to the number of concubines - this is well documented. Of course, only the elite could reasonably afford such luxuries.

    The way we view it (others can disagree), Islam is a universal religion that allows flexibility for various times and places. In polygamous societies, it has rules. In monogamous societies it has rules. In slave holding societies it has rules. In all-free societies it has rules. In tribal societies, in non-tribal societies, etc.

    Europeans left polygamy and tribalism a long time ago - they tend not to understand the relationship between tribal societies and polygamy (which is really the same thing between having one concubine or many). And the fact that the majority of the world's cultures are occasionally or frequently polygamous (strictly monogamous cultures are around 15%) section ’9: Marital Composition’:
    http://eclectic.ss.uci.edu/~drwhite/worldcul/Codebook4EthnoAtlas.pdf

    Why should a universal religion cater to the tastes of the minority?

    Peace.
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  235. Anon says: • Disclaimer
    @Hector_St_Clare
    I don't think there is a causative relationship at all. Rape rates in America at least have declined over time, even while women dress more 'provocatively'. Society has also gotten more stringent in our definition of rape- we now recognize that a man can rape his wife, for example. I also think that if you looked at police blotter records, you'd find that there isn't a strong correlation with what a rape victim was wearing the night of the attack. Most rapes are crimes of opportunity, and criminals choose their victims based on who seems the easiest to rape, not who looks the 'hottest'.

    In any case, you can turn that around and say, "if women choose to wear headscarves, it's inevitable that men are going to yell anti-Islamic insults and treat them badly." I don't think that's right either, and I don't think we should simply accept it and say "don't wear the head scarf then."

    You are correct that head covering and emphasis on female modesty were features of (most of) medieval Christendom as well. (One should hesitate to make generalizations about what Christians believed or practiced: we don't have an equivalent of the Jewish or Muslim 'law', there has been a certain element of antinomianism in Christinaity from the beginning as one would expect of a religion whose central claim is that Christ's death set us free from the law, and even the Bible is not taken as an uncreated authority in quite the sense that the Vedas, the Quran or the Torah are by Hindus, Muslims and Jews.) I think medieval Christendom was wrong about that, as they were about many other things. I think we were correct to grow out of that phase, and I would be very unhappy if someday Christians start re-adopting the older Christian codes about modesty, sexual ethics, etc.. in order to fit in with their Muslim neighbors.

    My own Christian faith is of a very heterodox, Gnostic-influenced variety, and I'm at least halfway convinced that the gnostics were right in their rejection of strict monotheism, the created world, and the Jewish moral law. I've moved in that direction more and more over the last few years, partly as a reaction to Islam. You are quite right to point out that there are a lot of theological and moral elements that orthodox Christianity and Islam share in common. My response is that this is a good reason for Christians to question and be more critical of their own tradition.

    You are quite right to point out that there are a lot of theological and moral elements that orthodox Christianity and Islam share in common. My response is that this is a good reason for Christians to question and be more critical of their own tradition.My response is that this is a good reason for Christians to question and be more critical of their own tradition.

    Why? Assuming Christianity to be true, the things that Christianity and Islam share are the truths of Christianity that were too blindingly obvious for Mohammed to deny, given that he certainly had at least a vague understanding of the Christianity of his day.

    Consider that Christianity also shares a great deal with Stoicism and Neoplatonism, that Aristotelianism is compatible enough with Christianity to be the basis of the greatest system of Christian philosophy ever produced, and that the Jesuits did a fair job of doing the same with Confucianism!

    Read More
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  236. @Talha
    Hey G_R,

    My wife being Swedish, I'm a history buff when it comes to their history. They happened to have been a very heavy slave society in their origins and Christianity eventually got rid of that. However, it is fairly clear that concubinage with slaves was recognized in law by the Church for those people. The only thing the Chruch really had a problem with (as it has always had) is if a man tried to combine a normal marriage along with a concubine on the side - that was seen as form of polygamy (and apparently fined at half the rate of normal polygamy):
    "As in all slaveholding societies male slaveholders had sexual access to their slaves, and often purchased women alone for that purpose...From a very early period the Church treated the concubine, sensu strictu, as a wife without benefit of legal marriage. That understanding of course excluded concubinage as a form of plural marriage; such a relationship could exist only where there was a possibility of Christian marriage."
    http://historyonline.chadwyck.co.uk/getImage?productsuffix=_studyunits&action=printview&in=gif&out=pdf&src=/pci/a263-1990-062-02-000001/conv/a263-1990-062-02-000001.pdf&IE=.pdf

    I believe this was practice among the Merovingian Franks (though you can look it up for confirmation) and Charles Martel had a concubine.

    Peace.

    I believe this was practice among the Merovingian Franks (though you can look it up for confirmation) and Charles Martel had a concubine.

    It’s true that semi-civilized warlords like Charles Martel (or his grandson Charlemagne) had sexual relations with several women who bore them children. However I’ve never seen anything to indicate that those women were slaves.
    And in any case, during the later Middle ages the Church strictly enforced monogamy even on the most powerful members of the laity. This is very different from the Islamic position.

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  237. Anon says: • Disclaimer
    @anon
    The key point isn't that Islam is bad. Everything condoned in the Koran e.g. the rape and killing of infidels during jihad, was considered completely normal at the time and everyone did it. If anything the restrictions - like not having sex with a slave after you've beaten her to the point of drawing blood - were probably *improvements* on existing behavior.

    The key point is the lying about what is in it.

    It's not strange that Tokyo Rose lies about Islam - he's engaged in stealth warfare - it's the *entire* political-media class lying about Islam since 9/11 - that's the kicker.

    I was liberal-ish before 9/11 and it wasn't studying the koran etc afterwards that gradually turned me alt-right but the *entire* political-media class blatantly lying about what was in it.

    And getting back to the original point - Saudi has been funding jihadist preachers in jihadist mosques all over the world for 30+ years. So it doesn't matter what some scholar in Egypt says -
    what matters is what have those individual Saudi-funded preachers in their local mosques been preaching to the men involved in the Muslim rape gangs

    http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/nation/muslim-leader-blames-women-for-sex-attacks/news-story/d8b6a183c6a976752cb07be532543afd

    “The key point isn’t that Islam is bad. Everything condoned in the Koran e.g. the rape and killing of infidels during jihad, was considered completely normal at the time and everyone did it.”

    Here’s the problem with Islam.

    It combined tribalism with universalism.

    Judaism is a tribal religion. It applies to Jews, so if some of its laws and customs seem weird, it’s a Jewish thing, so Jews can keep that stuff among themselves. It works as tribalism.

    Christianity is a universal religion. It is about credo than ethno. Thus, it emphasizes ideas and values. As for what to eat, how to dress, and nitty gritty cultural details, it say little or nothing. It’s about what one believes in the heart. It works as universalism.

    Problem with Islam is it’s both tribal and universal. If Jesus and others divorced the new universal Faith from the particularism of Jewish tribal laws and customs, Muhammad wedded all the Arabic customs(and some of Jewish laws) to a universal faith.
    To be a Christian, you don’t have to eat, dress, or live like a member of the ancient tribe. But to be a Muslim, a lot of old customs have to be maintained.
    If Muhammad had developed Islam as a tribal religion for Arabs only — a covenant between God and Arab folks — , Islam would have made more sense. But as a universal religion, it says infidels must not only accept Allah as the one and only God but eat, dress, and live like Medieval Arabs.

    There is another problem with Islam vis-a-vis Judaism.
    It’s true that God has many faces in the Old Testament. Sometimes, He can be cruel and ruthless and smite entire folks and tell Jews to whup the Canaanites and etc.
    But the Old Testament God is a Deity in development. He is always growing and changing and evolving. So, the nature of God in one part of the Bible is different from another part of the Bible. There is no Final truth about God. There are only fragments of God’s manifestation through prophets, kings, and other folks.
    So, even though God tells Jews to do ruthless stuff in one part of the Old Testament, it doesn’t mean He means that way to be the Only Way for all times and places. God has what might be called ‘bad hair days’.
    Also, the fact that there are several Gospels in the New Testament with varying accounts suggest a Rashomon-ish need to interpret and reinterpret.

    In contrast, Muhammad is billed as the final and last Great Prophet. He is said to have corrected all the mistakes and fixed all the bugs in the Old and New Testaments. So, the stuff in the Koran are for all times and all places. It’s not a case of Allah with ‘bad hair day’ acting especially cruel or ruthless on occasion. The Koran is The Truth for all times.

    In the Old Testament, the cruelty of God and Jews is historical. There are times when there is a need for Hiroshima-like ruthlessness. But there are times when God urges another way and tact for the Jews. Times change, and rules change.

    In contrast, the truth in the Koran is supposed to be timeless and eternal, for every moment of every year of every century. Thus, Allah becomes more one-dimensional than the God of Old Testament.

    A cynic might say Islam is Judaism-Christianity for dummies.

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    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    What you wrote is my impression based on what little I know of the Quran and Islam in general, but I don't rush to judgment so readily.

    You know, I used to be a fierce anti-Christian New Atheist crusader on internet forums, arguing about how the Bible was stupid, inconsistent, etc., and of course I deeply regret it. I'm still not a believer, but I think taking other people's beliefs without giving them anything in exchange is evil, and perhaps not even a small evil.

    In any event, it also dawned on me that probably the Bible is not nearly as stupid, deranged, inconsistent, etc. as I was arguing, and the ambiguities that are left there are (as you write) actually positive things. In any event, because once in my life I formed judgment on some sacred texts of a religion based on unsympathetic interpretations of passages taken out of context, and I regret it, so now I'm reluctant to form judgement on Islam the religion (or its potential, as opposed to how it's practiced or how the majority or large plurality of its adherents interpret it in general, which is r