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Audacious Epigone has a blog post on the percentage of GSS respondents by religion who would have an abortion if it emerged their child has a genetic defect.

The term is used accurately in this context. The question reads “Suppose a test shows the baby has a serious genetic defect. Would you (yourself want to/want your partner to) have an abortion if a test shows the baby has a serious genetic defect?”

anepigone-abortion-if-genetic-defect

Let’s see what the results would be by race.

gss-eugenics-by-race

Very true to stereotype.

Here are the results by country of family origin:

gss-eugenics-by-national-origin

The Chinese are going to go for it (non-Chinese/Japanese Asian-Americans are more ambivalent, split 50/50).

The Hispanics won’t.

“Russia” respondents here are predominantly Jewish (55% say they were outright raised in a Jewish household). Ethnic Russian-Americans will likely be somewhere transitional between average whites and the Jews/Chinese.

It’s reasonable to posit that openness to genetic tinkering is described by a bell curve. Since genetically augmenting your offspring to be more intelligent is far more controversial than merely sparing him from a life of suffering by having an abortion, this would imply that only the tails would be interested in it. And not only are the Jews and American Asians more intelligent in the first place, but their openess to genetic augmentation tails are far, far fatter than those of whites, Latinos, or Blacks.

menaquinone4′s autistic Jewasian elite ruling over mulatto gamer underclass clicking sponsored content all day – here we come!

PS. That said, Timofey Pnin notes that Down abortion rate in the US is around 67% (article), so revealed preferences might not match stated ones.

PPS. Audacious Epigone comments: “It looks like higher fertility = less likely to say they’d abort a defective fetus.” That seems right.

gss-eugenics-by-ideal-fertility

 
• Category: Race/Ethnicity • Tags: Eugenics, Genetic Engineering 
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  1. Remember the difference between disorder and disease. Disease is mostly degenerative. disorder is not, sometimes can become degenerative. And some disorders are more near to the disease condition than the condition itself. I define condition less as a intrinsic disorder and more as a extrinsic disorder or that was caused by extrinsic circumstances. Concept of condition at least for me give the idea of temporary situation.

    The use of the label “autistic” here look incongruent start the idea most non autistic people is likely to abort the fetus if they discover his son will born with this condition.

    Asperger or even high functioning asperger look more precise than autistic because this group is a manifestation of well self adapted autism because they share much more autistic advantage than costs and mingled with more stable general organic structure than usually many or most autistics tend to display.

    The first time I read it I think intuitively: “man, this orientals are evil”. But it’s seems more complex than my first view. It’s a sign of great empathy give the child the unique chance to have a life whatever the quality she/he had. In the end: “worst seems better than nothing”. In other hand abort possible humans who will born with SERIOUS disease also seems very empathetic. Reminde me the cultural differences between east and west when in the west people generally (or not) when have visitors in your house tend not to think about their preferences: Food, namely. They give the freedom to the visitor or whatever the person (a son) to choice what they want. Oriental authoritarianism: In the east, on avg (??), people think about the preferences of visitors or whatever person (son for example) before reducing their freedom to choice. Both are different empathetic approaches but the oriental way seems more authoritarian occidental way.

    What amaze is how dumb Jews has been since a long time because they, seems, just now start to note their genetic problems and to reduce it via selective procedures. Maybe the orthodox Jews are less prone to abortion because their religion, maybe not…

    When you talk about “autistic” you mean “Asian” too?? Based on quite biased and popular derogative and post modern label: “autistic” (when autistic mean emotional idiot), east Asians, Jews and Indians look disproportionately “autistics” because their overwhelm disposition to abort. So called “oriental Darwinian brutality”. Over populated regions tend to reduce empathy??

    And elites always look more sociopath than autistic. It’s unfair and precise call them autistic. Maybe elites like to give the idea that they are more “autistic”?? Smart and naive?? But they overwhelming sociopaths, the neurotypical psychopaths. I don’t know if Jewish elites are more or less sociopaths than Anglo-Saxon ones.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
    It's actually purely a riff on a famous meme.

    http://www.unzcloud.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/menaquinone4-zucks-vision.jpg
    , @Daniel Chieh

    The first time I read it I think intuitively: “man, this orientals are evil”. But it’s seems more complex than my first view. It’s a sign of great empathy give the child the unique chance to have a life whatever the quality she/he had.

     

    Its a different form of sensibility.

    We simply don't credit individual life with that much value, people are extensions of their family. If you could choose your hand, would you choose a crippled one, or grow one that was unbroken? We are a culture that expects criminals and other societal failures to self-terminate, and where honor suicide is often celebrated.

    Confucianism, for example, would focus heavily on familial continuation and not on the individual. If, say, a mentally deficient boy was born and he dragged down his entire family and led to their destruction, that is a sin far greater than if he was left to die. With the tradition of fenjia, where the family was expected to evenly divide their inheritance among their sons(rather than to the firstborn), every single boy was expected had to outperform just to maintain their previous social status. This Clark-Unz eugenic effect was brutal for the individual, but led to significant improvements to the population.

    Even Mao's descendant, who despite the reasonable amount of ancestor worship that Mao Zedong gets, isn't immune from this. Mao's grandson is clearly at least mildly mentally regressed(he obviously has difficulty with higher level thought), and he regularly gets requests from the Chinese community to just kill himself.

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  2. @Santoculto
    Remember the difference between disorder and disease. Disease is mostly degenerative. disorder is not, sometimes can become degenerative. And some disorders are more near to the disease condition than the condition itself. I define condition less as a intrinsic disorder and more as a extrinsic disorder or that was caused by extrinsic circumstances. Concept of condition at least for me give the idea of temporary situation.

    The use of the label "autistic" here look incongruent start the idea most non autistic people is likely to abort the fetus if they discover his son will born with this condition.

    Asperger or even high functioning asperger look more precise than autistic because this group is a manifestation of well self adapted autism because they share much more autistic advantage than costs and mingled with more stable general organic structure than usually many or most autistics tend to display.

    The first time I read it I think intuitively: "man, this orientals are evil". But it's seems more complex than my first view. It's a sign of great empathy give the child the unique chance to have a life whatever the quality she/he had. In the end: "worst seems better than nothing". In other hand abort possible humans who will born with SERIOUS disease also seems very empathetic. Reminde me the cultural differences between east and west when in the west people generally (or not) when have visitors in your house tend not to think about their preferences: Food, namely. They give the freedom to the visitor or whatever the person (a son) to choice what they want. Oriental authoritarianism: In the east, on avg (??), people think about the preferences of visitors or whatever person (son for example) before reducing their freedom to choice. Both are different empathetic approaches but the oriental way seems more authoritarian occidental way.

    What amaze is how dumb Jews has been since a long time because they, seems, just now start to note their genetic problems and to reduce it via selective procedures. Maybe the orthodox Jews are less prone to abortion because their religion, maybe not...

    When you talk about "autistic" you mean "Asian" too?? Based on quite biased and popular derogative and post modern label: "autistic" (when autistic mean emotional idiot), east Asians, Jews and Indians look disproportionately "autistics" because their overwhelm disposition to abort. So called "oriental Darwinian brutality". Over populated regions tend to reduce empathy??

    And elites always look more sociopath than autistic. It’s unfair and precise call them autistic. Maybe elites like to give the idea that they are more “autistic”?? Smart and naive?? But they overwhelming sociopaths, the neurotypical psychopaths. I don’t know if Jewish elites are more or less sociopaths than Anglo-Saxon ones.

    It’s actually purely a riff on a famous meme.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Santoculto
    Yes, what i said most of this people are not diagnosed as autistic but they can be treated as ''high functioning asperger'' in some extent, what classical or original nerds tend to be.
  3. But I strongly believe that without Jewish Gramscism in the west people will be more similar to the orientals, I don’t believe a complete convergence but less contrasting.

    Read More
  4. neutral says:

    The old testament is a howto guide on ethnic cleansing, eugenics and proclaiming oneself the master race, so this is hardly surprising.

    I also have to add that things like the afterlife or spiritual enlightenment are not featured in the old testament, its not a very spiritual religious text.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Boris N

    The old testament is a howto guide on ethnic cleansing, eugenics and proclaiming oneself the master race, so this is hardly surprising.
     
    But your idea does not explain why Christians who consider the Old Testament sacrosanct as well do not act like Jews. Has the New Testament nullified the Old Testament's Jewish mentality? I doubt that. More likely modern Judaism is a made-up religion created during the last half of the 1st millennium AD. So it's hardly anything about the Bible.

    However, considering that Protestants respect and follow the Old Testament more than other Christians, there might be some Old Testament patterns while America was being created. American exceptionalism is something of the Old Testament's Israelites's exceptionalism.
  5. @Anatoly Karlin
    It's actually purely a riff on a famous meme.

    http://www.unzcloud.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/menaquinone4-zucks-vision.jpg

    Yes, what i said most of this people are not diagnosed as autistic but they can be treated as ”high functioning asperger” in some extent, what classical or original nerds tend to be.

    Read More
  6. Other problem with your analysis is that even today we can conclude superficially that east asians and jews are smarter than whites, via convergent thinking or IQ, we can bear in mind that:

    - ”East asians” are the smartest of their macro-race: japaneses, chineses, koreans and in less extent vietnamites… but ”whites” are ”every european people, from Portugal to the Sweden”. This reduce the general avg intelligence of ”whites”. But in my opinion the correct comparison must be: general east asians (from japaneses to the indonesians) and general whites (what’s is usually used). You are comparing all versus the best. Sat, Pisa, etc at least in US proved, by now, that this differences between east asians and whites are less than ”we imagine”;

    - Dysgenic trends is older in Europe than in East Asia, so we can’t say by now with full-confidence that whites since a long time have a avg IQ 100. I think midle scenario between Charltonian hypothesis (victorians were much more clever than post modern british) and the non-dysgenic scenario (victorians were less smarter than post modern british);

    - Creativity levels of east asians seems lower than europeans and only this factor make all differences. Less to the japaneses, but i really don’t know how less creative japaneses are if compared with european”s”. Maybe japaneses are, ”on avg”, more creative than 70% of european people’s;

    - Correlation between g and verbal IQ among ashkenazis is quite lower, ~0,30, in contrast with 0,70 among ”gentiles” (mostly westerners*), what it’s mean* ”30%” of ashkenazis have the same general and verbal IQ but ”70%” no have* and the otherwise for [white] gentiles*

    So if the correlation between g or general intelligence and verbal ”intelligence” is so lower among jews why we treat them as if they were very correlative*

    So ”general intelligence” of ashkenazis will not be ”110” because it reflects their verbal IQ…

    Read More
    • Replies: @Stephen R. Diamond

    So if the correlation between g or general intelligence and verbal ”intelligence” is so lower among jews why we treat them as if they were very correlative*
     
    Because, if this is a fact, it isn't well known. Do you have a source?
    , @myb6
    If you group east asians with southeast asians, consistency requires you to group Europeans with other Caucasoids (North Africa, Near East, South Asia). I haven't run the numbers, but given the population sizes this might even enlarge the IQ gap.

    Woodley is continuously adding to his case about European dysgenics, and a parallel phenomenon would affect East Asia much more recently (given the later demographic transition), so no disagreement on this point.

    East Asian creativity < European creativity is a common trope, and life experience is prima facie support. But AFAIK we're not clear on the relative weight of social pressure for conformity, lower risk tolerance, lower extraversion, or an isolated creativity factor. Hold off on running with this idea too far until the evidence is better.

    g is not Performance IQ. Your source below, in response to Stephen Diamond, does not state, nor suggest, what you claimed. Take a look at any number of IQ subtest correlations with g. It's even on the wiki for g. If anything the visuo-spatial tasks are the weakest correlates for g.

    Out of four claims, two are quite wrong and one is rather unsupported.
  7. inertial says:

    The comparison of Jews/Asian to “Whites” is misleading. You have to separate whites into the WEIRD coastal set and flyover religious set. This is where the real divide lies. The discrepancy you see in this chart is driven by the fact that more Jews and Asians belong to the former category.

    Did this occur to Audacious Epigone? I am sure it did.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Audacious Epigone
    It did occur to me, but the GSS only breaks down by US census region, of which there are nine. The closest we could get to your dichotomy is New England and the Pacific Coast on one side and the other seven regions on the other
  8. It looks like higher fertility = less likely to say they’d abort a defective fetus.

    I’d abort if the question was posed to me.

    But there’s no way around the observation, that pokes its head out here, that the future belongs to those who show up.

    Read More
  9. @inertial
    The comparison of Jews/Asian to "Whites" is misleading. You have to separate whites into the WEIRD coastal set and flyover religious set. This is where the real divide lies. The discrepancy you see in this chart is driven by the fact that more Jews and Asians belong to the former category.

    Did this occur to Audacious Epigone? I am sure it did.

    It did occur to me, but the GSS only breaks down by US census region, of which there are nine. The closest we could get to your dichotomy is New England and the Pacific Coast on one side and the other seven regions on the other

    Read More
  10. AaronB says:

    Hmmm, I wonder though.

    How will this new experiment in eugenics end up? Oh, I’m sure it won’t have any unintended or unforeseen consequences. No, none at all. We will no doubt be able to perfectly foresee all the consequences and completely control the entire process.

    And of course, selecting for some traits can’t possible carry any costs or sacrifices – the world is such that we can always have the best of everything without sacrifice, right? There are no irreconcilable choices built into the world, as far as I can see.

    I’d love to be around in a few hundred years and see the weirdness of thew new Jewasian group – I bet they’re gonna breed themselves into a grotesque and intensely weird “race” suffering from all sorts of cognitive handicaps and psychological distortions while remaining superficially intelligent – and far from forming any kind of elite, they will be a sort of eunuch niche group that performs certain specialized services for the ruling elite, which will come from the more normal and healthy strata of society.

    Already its becoming clear that “rule by mandarins”, the system we’ve had for the past 100 or so years, is untenable and disastrous in the long run. Naturally, this mandarin class will wish to intensify its distinctive traits in any breeding program, blind to their cognitive and psychological limitations, thus rendering itself even more marginal and unfit to rule.

    Of course, believing as I do in unseen forces that impinge on the human realm and that the universe is ordered by a fundamental teleology, I think any such experiment won’t get very far before unraveling in unforeseen Tower of Babel ways, we humans being what we are.

    But – good luck, mandarins.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    I don't think its "rule by mandarin" - there's no indication that they particularly want to rule or even to have children at all, so any evidence of a troublesome progeny will lean toward abortion for many of them. I'll just its a consequence of hyperindividualization.

    Incidentally, I am an actual descendant of mandarins and my family was the ancestral landowners of much of what is now Pudong, Shanghai, China. Its been a point of both humor, and tragedy for me because its familial lore that we have left treasures hidden in our graves, and that if it was absolutely necessary, where to search for them. Well, the moderns have built a grotesquely huge airport over where our graves would be now, and probably dug up anything of value, where it sits in the coffers of some Party functionary. Hooray.

    At any rate, technically, that is what the mandarins were to be: a niche group that served the interests of the common weal and societal harmony. They formed a de facto aristocracy, but essentially sacrificed a good portion of their lives to become part of the bureaucracy that ran China.

    These days, I think our new elite has largely forgotten any notion of a concept of service. Noblesse oblige seems largely lost as an idea. Its frustrating. I do hope that the world gets a bit less crass, as you seem to hope and expect as well.
  11. Boris N says:

    Finally we now have an estimate how many Jews are among Russian-Americans (55%). I wonder how many would be Russian-mimicking Soviets, like Georgians, Armenians, Moldavians and others, who are all “Russians” if asked. I might have been not that wrong when I said that only 25%-30% of Russian-Americans are actually ethnic Russians.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
    I agree. I have long assessed Jews at about 70% of identified Russian-Americans.
    , @Daniel Chieh
    The self-selected Russian immigrant community that I'm familiar with in the US, incidentally, are neither ethnically Jewish nor underperforming - quite a few with graduate degrees and the like, so to me, it calls into question about your claim that a Russian-majority community would necessarily lead to bad infrastructure, etc. At least, not the self-selected one I know.

    That said, the majority of them are odd from a Western perspective to me since they seem to hold seemingly incompatible values: they appear to have an intense hate of Jews, up and including a close friend who confided that he would consider suicide if he found out he was born Jewish, but otherwise he appeared to seek to almost slavishly wish to be "Western" somehow, taking on significant levels of debt in order to have nice cars and keep up appearances, casually blamming on others Russians and almost forcing his wife to work so to be "modern."

    There's another one, admittedly, who is also brilliant but pretty alcoholic and genuinely violent. Despite his regular abuse of vodka(close to daily), he still seems to write brilliant software code - one can only wonder how much more he could do if he didn't go mildly insane on such a regular basis.

  12. Boris N says:
    @neutral
    The old testament is a howto guide on ethnic cleansing, eugenics and proclaiming oneself the master race, so this is hardly surprising.

    I also have to add that things like the afterlife or spiritual enlightenment are not featured in the old testament, its not a very spiritual religious text.

    The old testament is a howto guide on ethnic cleansing, eugenics and proclaiming oneself the master race, so this is hardly surprising.

    But your idea does not explain why Christians who consider the Old Testament sacrosanct as well do not act like Jews. Has the New Testament nullified the Old Testament’s Jewish mentality? I doubt that. More likely modern Judaism is a made-up religion created during the last half of the 1st millennium AD. So it’s hardly anything about the Bible.

    However, considering that Protestants respect and follow the Old Testament more than other Christians, there might be some Old Testament patterns while America was being created. American exceptionalism is something of the Old Testament’s Israelites’s exceptionalism.

    Read More
    • Replies: @notanon
    The golden rule applied to a homogenous, endogamous population mimics kin selection and makes perfect sense. It's moral within the group and very practical.

    Universalizing the golden rule may be morally better - if you're from one of the populations who've been adapted to believe that - but practically it makes no sense unless everyone is like it at which point it's practically better - and therefore morally better as well - practically speaking.

    (Also if you're a particularist group surrounded by universalists - you win.)

    To the extent Christianity worked culturally over the last 2000 years then it would be a kind of time travel evolution where you create cultural selection that uses sanctions to make people behave in a way they are not adapted to behave so over generations they gradually evolve in that culturally determined direction - which would be slow but eventually better if/when they arrived.

    So Protestant groups moving back towards a more endogamous group version of the golden rule makes practical sense but if they'd already had centuries of universalizing selection it was too late.

    Interesting stuff.
    , @LondonBob
    True Rabbinical Judaism is about the Talmud, Jesus pointed this out in the New Testament when he criticised the Pharisees (Rabbis in today's language) for inventing things, the oral law. Rabbinical Judaism has absolutely nothing to do with the bible or Christianity.
  13. @Boris N
    Finally we now have an estimate how many Jews are among Russian-Americans (55%). I wonder how many would be Russian-mimicking Soviets, like Georgians, Armenians, Moldavians and others, who are all "Russians" if asked. I might have been not that wrong when I said that only 25%-30% of Russian-Americans are actually ethnic Russians.

    I agree. I have long assessed Jews at about 70% of identified Russian-Americans.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Pachyderm Pachyderma
    Hey AK, I think you have a typo in your very informative Russian-American article... I think you meant DINGY bars not DINGHY bars.
    , @Bill P
    Not where I live. They're almost all ethnic Russians up here in NW Washington.

    It's a bit odd to be driving out in the middle of nowhere and then suddenly in some little store or gas station deep in the woods people are speaking Russian to each other, but that's how it is here.
  14. notanon says:
    @Boris N

    The old testament is a howto guide on ethnic cleansing, eugenics and proclaiming oneself the master race, so this is hardly surprising.
     
    But your idea does not explain why Christians who consider the Old Testament sacrosanct as well do not act like Jews. Has the New Testament nullified the Old Testament's Jewish mentality? I doubt that. More likely modern Judaism is a made-up religion created during the last half of the 1st millennium AD. So it's hardly anything about the Bible.

    However, considering that Protestants respect and follow the Old Testament more than other Christians, there might be some Old Testament patterns while America was being created. American exceptionalism is something of the Old Testament's Israelites's exceptionalism.

    The golden rule applied to a homogenous, endogamous population mimics kin selection and makes perfect sense. It’s moral within the group and very practical.

    Universalizing the golden rule may be morally better – if you’re from one of the populations who’ve been adapted to believe that – but practically it makes no sense unless everyone is like it at which point it’s practically better – and therefore morally better as well – practically speaking.

    (Also if you’re a particularist group surrounded by universalists – you win.)

    To the extent Christianity worked culturally over the last 2000 years then it would be a kind of time travel evolution where you create cultural selection that uses sanctions to make people behave in a way they are not adapted to behave so over generations they gradually evolve in that culturally determined direction – which would be slow but eventually better if/when they arrived.

    So Protestant groups moving back towards a more endogamous group version of the golden rule makes practical sense but if they’d already had centuries of universalizing selection it was too late.

    Interesting stuff.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonne
    The golden rule doesn't mimic kin selection. Furthermore, the kinship coefficients fall drastically beyond very close relatives, regardless of how homogeneous or endogamous a population is.
  15. A better analysis would be to compare responses ‘if serious genetic defect’ to ‘if woman just wanted an abortion’.

    Read More
  16. De Gaulle says:

    Abortion family manipulation is bad for humanity.
    If mortal danger to mother or child that may be excusable.
    If vanity then never excusable.
    Such acts degrade humans.

    Read More
  17. @Anatoly Karlin
    I agree. I have long assessed Jews at about 70% of identified Russian-Americans.

    Hey AK, I think you have a typo in your very informative Russian-American article… I think you meant DINGY bars not DINGHY bars.

    Read More
  18. Bill P says:
    @Anatoly Karlin
    I agree. I have long assessed Jews at about 70% of identified Russian-Americans.

    Not where I live. They’re almost all ethnic Russians up here in NW Washington.

    It’s a bit odd to be driving out in the middle of nowhere and then suddenly in some little store or gas station deep in the woods people are speaking Russian to each other, but that’s how it is here.

    Read More
  19. @Santoculto
    Other problem with your analysis is that even today we can conclude superficially that east asians and jews are smarter than whites, via convergent thinking or IQ, we can bear in mind that:

    - ''East asians'' are the smartest of their macro-race: japaneses, chineses, koreans and in less extent vietnamites... but ''whites'' are ''every european people, from Portugal to the Sweden''. This reduce the general avg intelligence of ''whites''. But in my opinion the correct comparison must be: general east asians (from japaneses to the indonesians) and general whites (what's is usually used). You are comparing all versus the best. Sat, Pisa, etc at least in US proved, by now, that this differences between east asians and whites are less than ''we imagine'';

    - Dysgenic trends is older in Europe than in East Asia, so we can't say by now with full-confidence that whites since a long time have a avg IQ 100. I think midle scenario between Charltonian hypothesis (victorians were much more clever than post modern british) and the non-dysgenic scenario (victorians were less smarter than post modern british);

    - Creativity levels of east asians seems lower than europeans and only this factor make all differences. Less to the japaneses, but i really don't know how less creative japaneses are if compared with european''s''. Maybe japaneses are, ''on avg'', more creative than 70% of european people's;

    - Correlation between g and verbal IQ among ashkenazis is quite lower, ~0,30, in contrast with 0,70 among ''gentiles'' (mostly westerners*), what it's mean* ''30%'' of ashkenazis have the same general and verbal IQ but ''70%'' no have* and the otherwise for [white] gentiles*

    So if the correlation between g or general intelligence and verbal ''intelligence'' is so lower among jews why we treat them as if they were very correlative*

    So ''general intelligence'' of ashkenazis will not be ''110'' because it reflects their verbal IQ...

    So if the correlation between g or general intelligence and verbal ”intelligence” is so lower among jews why we treat them as if they were very correlative*

    Because, if this is a fact, it isn’t well known. Do you have a source?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Santoculto
    http://www.neoeugenics.net/IQgenes.htm

    http://www.thephora.net/forum/showthread.php?t=16441

    There is good evidence that Jewish children's Verbal IQ is considerably higher than their Performance IQ. Brown (1944) found several sub-test differences compatible with the hypothesis that Jewish children are higher on verbal abilities, while Scandinavian children are higher on visuo-spatial abilities. Lesser, Fifer, and Clark (1965) found large differences favoring Jewish children over Chinese-American children on verbal ability, but insignificant differences in favor of Chinese-American children on visuo-spatial abilities. And Backman (1972) found that Jewish subjects were significantly higher than non-Jewish Caucasians on a measure of verbal knowledge but were significantly lower on visuo-spatial reasoning.
    Large verbal/performance IQ differences have been found within Jewish populations. Levinson (1958) studied a representative sample of yeshiva students and found an average Verbal IQ of 125.6, an average Performance IQ of 105.3, and an average Full Scale IQ of 117.86, although he suggests that there may have been a ceiling effect for some students on the verbal portion. Whereas in the general population there was a correlation of 0.77 between Verbal and Performance IQs, among Jewish children it was only 0.31. Finally, Levinson (1960b) found that a sample of Jewish boys (age 10-13) with an average Verbal IQ of 117 had a Performance IQ of 98, while Irish and Italian samples matched for Full Scale IQ had Verbal/Performance differences of only approximately 5 points (approximately 110-105). Levinson (1959) provides evidence that the Verbal/Performance difference for Jewish children increases from pre-school to young adulthood. When children were matched on the basis of full-scale Wechsler IQ, pre-school children showed a small (3-point) difference between Performance and Verbal IQ, while elementary school-age and college student subjects showed a difference of approximately 20 points.
    Taken together, the data suggest a mean IQ in the 117 range for Ashkenazi Jewish children, with a Verbal IQ in the range of 125 and a Performance IQ in the average range. These results, if correct, would indicate a difference of almost two standard deviations from the Caucasian mean in Verbal IQ exactly the type of intellectual ability that has been the focus of Jewish education and eugenic practices. While precise numerical estimates remain somewhat doubtful, there can be no doubt about the general superiority of the Ashkenazi Jewish children on measures of verbal intelligence (see also Patai & Patai 1989, 149).

  20. Anonne says:
    @notanon
    The golden rule applied to a homogenous, endogamous population mimics kin selection and makes perfect sense. It's moral within the group and very practical.

    Universalizing the golden rule may be morally better - if you're from one of the populations who've been adapted to believe that - but practically it makes no sense unless everyone is like it at which point it's practically better - and therefore morally better as well - practically speaking.

    (Also if you're a particularist group surrounded by universalists - you win.)

    To the extent Christianity worked culturally over the last 2000 years then it would be a kind of time travel evolution where you create cultural selection that uses sanctions to make people behave in a way they are not adapted to behave so over generations they gradually evolve in that culturally determined direction - which would be slow but eventually better if/when they arrived.

    So Protestant groups moving back towards a more endogamous group version of the golden rule makes practical sense but if they'd already had centuries of universalizing selection it was too late.

    Interesting stuff.

    The golden rule doesn’t mimic kin selection. Furthermore, the kinship coefficients fall drastically beyond very close relatives, regardless of how homogeneous or endogamous a population is.

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    • Replies: @notanon
    if you believed that you wouldn't have felt the need to write the second part
  21. @Stephen R. Diamond

    So if the correlation between g or general intelligence and verbal ”intelligence” is so lower among jews why we treat them as if they were very correlative*
     
    Because, if this is a fact, it isn't well known. Do you have a source?

    http://www.neoeugenics.net/IQgenes.htm

    http://www.thephora.net/forum/showthread.php?t=16441

    There is good evidence that Jewish children’s Verbal IQ is considerably higher than their Performance IQ. Brown (1944) found several sub-test differences compatible with the hypothesis that Jewish children are higher on verbal abilities, while Scandinavian children are higher on visuo-spatial abilities. Lesser, Fifer, and Clark (1965) found large differences favoring Jewish children over Chinese-American children on verbal ability, but insignificant differences in favor of Chinese-American children on visuo-spatial abilities. And Backman (1972) found that Jewish subjects were significantly higher than non-Jewish Caucasians on a measure of verbal knowledge but were significantly lower on visuo-spatial reasoning.
    Large verbal/performance IQ differences have been found within Jewish populations. Levinson (1958) studied a representative sample of yeshiva students and found an average Verbal IQ of 125.6, an average Performance IQ of 105.3, and an average Full Scale IQ of 117.86, although he suggests that there may have been a ceiling effect for some students on the verbal portion. Whereas in the general population there was a correlation of 0.77 between Verbal and Performance IQs, among Jewish children it was only 0.31. Finally, Levinson (1960b) found that a sample of Jewish boys (age 10-13) with an average Verbal IQ of 117 had a Performance IQ of 98, while Irish and Italian samples matched for Full Scale IQ had Verbal/Performance differences of only approximately 5 points (approximately 110-105). Levinson (1959) provides evidence that the Verbal/Performance difference for Jewish children increases from pre-school to young adulthood. When children were matched on the basis of full-scale Wechsler IQ, pre-school children showed a small (3-point) difference between Performance and Verbal IQ, while elementary school-age and college student subjects showed a difference of approximately 20 points.
    Taken together, the data suggest a mean IQ in the 117 range for Ashkenazi Jewish children, with a Verbal IQ in the range of 125 and a Performance IQ in the average range. These results, if correct, would indicate a difference of almost two standard deviations from the Caucasian mean in Verbal IQ exactly the type of intellectual ability that has been the focus of Jewish education and eugenic practices. While precise numerical estimates remain somewhat doubtful, there can be no doubt about the general superiority of the Ashkenazi Jewish children on measures of verbal intelligence (see also Patai & Patai 1989, 149).

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  22. @Santoculto
    Remember the difference between disorder and disease. Disease is mostly degenerative. disorder is not, sometimes can become degenerative. And some disorders are more near to the disease condition than the condition itself. I define condition less as a intrinsic disorder and more as a extrinsic disorder or that was caused by extrinsic circumstances. Concept of condition at least for me give the idea of temporary situation.

    The use of the label "autistic" here look incongruent start the idea most non autistic people is likely to abort the fetus if they discover his son will born with this condition.

    Asperger or even high functioning asperger look more precise than autistic because this group is a manifestation of well self adapted autism because they share much more autistic advantage than costs and mingled with more stable general organic structure than usually many or most autistics tend to display.

    The first time I read it I think intuitively: "man, this orientals are evil". But it's seems more complex than my first view. It's a sign of great empathy give the child the unique chance to have a life whatever the quality she/he had. In the end: "worst seems better than nothing". In other hand abort possible humans who will born with SERIOUS disease also seems very empathetic. Reminde me the cultural differences between east and west when in the west people generally (or not) when have visitors in your house tend not to think about their preferences: Food, namely. They give the freedom to the visitor or whatever the person (a son) to choice what they want. Oriental authoritarianism: In the east, on avg (??), people think about the preferences of visitors or whatever person (son for example) before reducing their freedom to choice. Both are different empathetic approaches but the oriental way seems more authoritarian occidental way.

    What amaze is how dumb Jews has been since a long time because they, seems, just now start to note their genetic problems and to reduce it via selective procedures. Maybe the orthodox Jews are less prone to abortion because their religion, maybe not...

    When you talk about "autistic" you mean "Asian" too?? Based on quite biased and popular derogative and post modern label: "autistic" (when autistic mean emotional idiot), east Asians, Jews and Indians look disproportionately "autistics" because their overwhelm disposition to abort. So called "oriental Darwinian brutality". Over populated regions tend to reduce empathy??

    And elites always look more sociopath than autistic. It’s unfair and precise call them autistic. Maybe elites like to give the idea that they are more “autistic”?? Smart and naive?? But they overwhelming sociopaths, the neurotypical psychopaths. I don’t know if Jewish elites are more or less sociopaths than Anglo-Saxon ones.

    The first time I read it I think intuitively: “man, this orientals are evil”. But it’s seems more complex than my first view. It’s a sign of great empathy give the child the unique chance to have a life whatever the quality she/he had.

    Its a different form of sensibility.

    We simply don’t credit individual life with that much value, people are extensions of their family. If you could choose your hand, would you choose a crippled one, or grow one that was unbroken? We are a culture that expects criminals and other societal failures to self-terminate, and where honor suicide is often celebrated.

    Confucianism, for example, would focus heavily on familial continuation and not on the individual. If, say, a mentally deficient boy was born and he dragged down his entire family and led to their destruction, that is a sin far greater than if he was left to die. With the tradition of fenjia, where the family was expected to evenly divide their inheritance among their sons(rather than to the firstborn), every single boy was expected had to outperform just to maintain their previous social status. This Clark-Unz eugenic effect was brutal for the individual, but led to significant improvements to the population.

    Even Mao’s descendant, who despite the reasonable amount of ancestor worship that Mao Zedong gets, isn’t immune from this. Mao’s grandson is clearly at least mildly mentally regressed(he obviously has difficulty with higher level thought), and he regularly gets requests from the Chinese community to just kill himself.

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    • Replies: @Santoculto
    ;)


    This may explain why you have less creatives. Many of this "socially failures" can be very creative if not some of them be the great gems. Terrible enfant!! When we read bibliography of greatest geniuses of all kinds we find a disproportionate rate of social and emotional problems, higher than we see among general population, specially among artistic geniuses but also higher among scientific ones.
  23. @Boris N
    Finally we now have an estimate how many Jews are among Russian-Americans (55%). I wonder how many would be Russian-mimicking Soviets, like Georgians, Armenians, Moldavians and others, who are all "Russians" if asked. I might have been not that wrong when I said that only 25%-30% of Russian-Americans are actually ethnic Russians.

    The self-selected Russian immigrant community that I’m familiar with in the US, incidentally, are neither ethnically Jewish nor underperforming – quite a few with graduate degrees and the like, so to me, it calls into question about your claim that a Russian-majority community would necessarily lead to bad infrastructure, etc. At least, not the self-selected one I know.

    That said, the majority of them are odd from a Western perspective to me since they seem to hold seemingly incompatible values: they appear to have an intense hate of Jews, up and including a close friend who confided that he would consider suicide if he found out he was born Jewish, but otherwise he appeared to seek to almost slavishly wish to be “Western” somehow, taking on significant levels of debt in order to have nice cars and keep up appearances, casually blamming on others Russians and almost forcing his wife to work so to be “modern.”

    There’s another one, admittedly, who is also brilliant but pretty alcoholic and genuinely violent. Despite his regular abuse of vodka(close to daily), he still seems to write brilliant software code – one can only wonder how much more he could do if he didn’t go mildly insane on such a regular basis.

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  24. @AaronB
    Hmmm, I wonder though.

    How will this new experiment in eugenics end up? Oh, I'm sure it won't have any unintended or unforeseen consequences. No, none at all. We will no doubt be able to perfectly foresee all the consequences and completely control the entire process.

    And of course, selecting for some traits can't possible carry any costs or sacrifices - the world is such that we can always have the best of everything without sacrifice, right? There are no irreconcilable choices built into the world, as far as I can see.

    I'd love to be around in a few hundred years and see the weirdness of thew new Jewasian group - I bet they're gonna breed themselves into a grotesque and intensely weird "race" suffering from all sorts of cognitive handicaps and psychological distortions while remaining superficially intelligent - and far from forming any kind of elite, they will be a sort of eunuch niche group that performs certain specialized services for the ruling elite, which will come from the more normal and healthy strata of society.

    Already its becoming clear that "rule by mandarins", the system we've had for the past 100 or so years, is untenable and disastrous in the long run. Naturally, this mandarin class will wish to intensify its distinctive traits in any breeding program, blind to their cognitive and psychological limitations, thus rendering itself even more marginal and unfit to rule.

    Of course, believing as I do in unseen forces that impinge on the human realm and that the universe is ordered by a fundamental teleology, I think any such experiment won't get very far before unraveling in unforeseen Tower of Babel ways, we humans being what we are.

    But - good luck, mandarins.

    I don’t think its “rule by mandarin” – there’s no indication that they particularly want to rule or even to have children at all, so any evidence of a troublesome progeny will lean toward abortion for many of them. I’ll just its a consequence of hyperindividualization.

    Incidentally, I am an actual descendant of mandarins and my family was the ancestral landowners of much of what is now Pudong, Shanghai, China. Its been a point of both humor, and tragedy for me because its familial lore that we have left treasures hidden in our graves, and that if it was absolutely necessary, where to search for them. Well, the moderns have built a grotesquely huge airport over where our graves would be now, and probably dug up anything of value, where it sits in the coffers of some Party functionary. Hooray.

    At any rate, technically, that is what the mandarins were to be: a niche group that served the interests of the common weal and societal harmony. They formed a de facto aristocracy, but essentially sacrificed a good portion of their lives to become part of the bureaucracy that ran China.

    These days, I think our new elite has largely forgotten any notion of a concept of service. Noblesse oblige seems largely lost as an idea. Its frustrating. I do hope that the world gets a bit less crass, as you seem to hope and expect as well.

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  25. myb6 says:
    @Santoculto
    Other problem with your analysis is that even today we can conclude superficially that east asians and jews are smarter than whites, via convergent thinking or IQ, we can bear in mind that:

    - ''East asians'' are the smartest of their macro-race: japaneses, chineses, koreans and in less extent vietnamites... but ''whites'' are ''every european people, from Portugal to the Sweden''. This reduce the general avg intelligence of ''whites''. But in my opinion the correct comparison must be: general east asians (from japaneses to the indonesians) and general whites (what's is usually used). You are comparing all versus the best. Sat, Pisa, etc at least in US proved, by now, that this differences between east asians and whites are less than ''we imagine'';

    - Dysgenic trends is older in Europe than in East Asia, so we can't say by now with full-confidence that whites since a long time have a avg IQ 100. I think midle scenario between Charltonian hypothesis (victorians were much more clever than post modern british) and the non-dysgenic scenario (victorians were less smarter than post modern british);

    - Creativity levels of east asians seems lower than europeans and only this factor make all differences. Less to the japaneses, but i really don't know how less creative japaneses are if compared with european''s''. Maybe japaneses are, ''on avg'', more creative than 70% of european people's;

    - Correlation between g and verbal IQ among ashkenazis is quite lower, ~0,30, in contrast with 0,70 among ''gentiles'' (mostly westerners*), what it's mean* ''30%'' of ashkenazis have the same general and verbal IQ but ''70%'' no have* and the otherwise for [white] gentiles*

    So if the correlation between g or general intelligence and verbal ''intelligence'' is so lower among jews why we treat them as if they were very correlative*

    So ''general intelligence'' of ashkenazis will not be ''110'' because it reflects their verbal IQ...

    If you group east asians with southeast asians, consistency requires you to group Europeans with other Caucasoids (North Africa, Near East, South Asia). I haven’t run the numbers, but given the population sizes this might even enlarge the IQ gap.

    Woodley is continuously adding to his case about European dysgenics, and a parallel phenomenon would affect East Asia much more recently (given the later demographic transition), so no disagreement on this point.

    East Asian creativity < European creativity is a common trope, and life experience is prima facie support. But AFAIK we're not clear on the relative weight of social pressure for conformity, lower risk tolerance, lower extraversion, or an isolated creativity factor. Hold off on running with this idea too far until the evidence is better.

    g is not Performance IQ. Your source below, in response to Stephen Diamond, does not state, nor suggest, what you claimed. Take a look at any number of IQ subtest correlations with g. It's even on the wiki for g. If anything the visuo-spatial tasks are the weakest correlates for g.

    Out of four claims, two are quite wrong and one is rather unsupported.

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    • Replies: @Santoculto
    Cultural conformity is no more a problem for east Asians in diaspora namely Chineses and Koreans. Japan have become more and more occidentalized and less traditional and we are seeing a increase of creative expressions but I don't know if with the same variety or diversity we usually see in the west. Same thing for chineses?? We have Taiwan, Hong Kong, Singapore and the rest of Chinese diaspora to conclude that by now chineses or at least the successful chineses don't seems very creative, superficially concluding.

    Seems everything is correlated with creativity can be predicted via openness to experience. Divergent thinking tests also seems reasonably good to predict creative achievements. East Asians seems less engaged in a variety of activities that correlates with creativity even I don't dispute their on avg higher cognitive intelligence.

    Even G and IQ performance are not the same thing and I agree, IQ performance is nearest to the G because its broader nature. So I don't think I'm completely wrong in my (this) specific statement if G/general intelligence is a structural ideal of intelligence and if IQ performance also reflect this generality.

    The ideal of G is: Symmetry of cognitive skills. But the reality is: Based on psychometric perspective perfect symmetry seems rare to be found.

    In this case I'm not talking about visuo spatial IQ versus general IQ or g (??) but verbal versus general IQ and seems ashkenazis have on disproportionate avg great discrepancy between this two aspects of intelligence.

    When people compare whites versus east Asians versus Jews they tend to use correctly all whites, but the "best" of east Asians and the Jews. And we still have the problem about Jewish IQ because "people" tend to use verbal Jewish IQ to compare. I think any idiosyncrasy must be showed but when we will compare group with group we need be more fair.

    East Asians no have a very mixed but still mongolid group just like MENA is to Caucasoid. Maybe southern east Asians are analogous to the MENA group, racial and genetically speaking, so the problem here would be unsolvable because the intermediary groups (northern-central--eastern Europeans ----- southern Europeans ---- MENA) of east Asians (Vietnameses) are less common or well grouped in the same nationalities. This make my purpose more difficult to be reached.

    The correlation between general IQ and specific IQ such a visual spatial seems relative. We can have a people where their strength is in visuo spatial so their G will be more placed there than with verbal.

  26. @myb6
    If you group east asians with southeast asians, consistency requires you to group Europeans with other Caucasoids (North Africa, Near East, South Asia). I haven't run the numbers, but given the population sizes this might even enlarge the IQ gap.

    Woodley is continuously adding to his case about European dysgenics, and a parallel phenomenon would affect East Asia much more recently (given the later demographic transition), so no disagreement on this point.

    East Asian creativity < European creativity is a common trope, and life experience is prima facie support. But AFAIK we're not clear on the relative weight of social pressure for conformity, lower risk tolerance, lower extraversion, or an isolated creativity factor. Hold off on running with this idea too far until the evidence is better.

    g is not Performance IQ. Your source below, in response to Stephen Diamond, does not state, nor suggest, what you claimed. Take a look at any number of IQ subtest correlations with g. It's even on the wiki for g. If anything the visuo-spatial tasks are the weakest correlates for g.

    Out of four claims, two are quite wrong and one is rather unsupported.

    Cultural conformity is no more a problem for east Asians in diaspora namely Chineses and Koreans. Japan have become more and more occidentalized and less traditional and we are seeing a increase of creative expressions but I don’t know if with the same variety or diversity we usually see in the west. Same thing for chineses?? We have Taiwan, Hong Kong, Singapore and the rest of Chinese diaspora to conclude that by now chineses or at least the successful chineses don’t seems very creative, superficially concluding.

    Seems everything is correlated with creativity can be predicted via openness to experience. Divergent thinking tests also seems reasonably good to predict creative achievements. East Asians seems less engaged in a variety of activities that correlates with creativity even I don’t dispute their on avg higher cognitive intelligence.

    Even G and IQ performance are not the same thing and I agree, IQ performance is nearest to the G because its broader nature. So I don’t think I’m completely wrong in my (this) specific statement if G/general intelligence is a structural ideal of intelligence and if IQ performance also reflect this generality.

    The ideal of G is: Symmetry of cognitive skills. But the reality is: Based on psychometric perspective perfect symmetry seems rare to be found.

    In this case I’m not talking about visuo spatial IQ versus general IQ or g (??) but verbal versus general IQ and seems ashkenazis have on disproportionate avg great discrepancy between this two aspects of intelligence.

    When people compare whites versus east Asians versus Jews they tend to use correctly all whites, but the “best” of east Asians and the Jews. And we still have the problem about Jewish IQ because “people” tend to use verbal Jewish IQ to compare. I think any idiosyncrasy must be showed but when we will compare group with group we need be more fair.

    East Asians no have a very mixed but still mongolid group just like MENA is to Caucasoid. Maybe southern east Asians are analogous to the MENA group, racial and genetically speaking, so the problem here would be unsolvable because the intermediary groups (northern-central–eastern Europeans —– southern Europeans —- MENA) of east Asians (Vietnameses) are less common or well grouped in the same nationalities. This make my purpose more difficult to be reached.

    The correlation between general IQ and specific IQ such a visual spatial seems relative. We can have a people where their strength is in visuo spatial so their G will be more placed there than with verbal.

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    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh

    Japan have become more and more occidentalized and less traditional and we are seeing a increase of creative expressions but I don’t know if with the same variety or diversity we usually see in the west
     
    This seems like wild and inaccurate speculation for anyone who has been in Japan. Japan took some good ideas from the West, but I would say that its culture - complete with verbal rituals and status markers in language that go well beyond the Chinese - is no more Westernized than British and French culture was Easternized because they adopted exams for public servants after Chinese inspiration.

    Japan is most likely more creative insofar as it maintains indigenous elements in its expression.

    Your argument would be better served by South Korea, which creates a lot of media but is not much of a cultural innovator and is indeed getting heavily Westernized. Insofar as China goes, its an entirely separate and complex shishkabob, with all of the censorship and soulless worship of money, but there's evidence that there's a creative industries that's rising as well.

    Insofar as creativity in technology goes, Facebook, etc. have been taking ideas from the Chinese web giants such as QQ, so there's certainly evidence that when it comes to some forms of creativity, the Chinese are not perhaps hopeless.
  27. Mongoloid no have a “southern European” analogous-groups in similar demographic numbers to compare with Europeans-caucasoid.

    My essential tip here is: “east Asians are smarter on avg than whites”, but if you compare for example Germans with Japaneses this general differences if not disappear will show a German advantage and even with older and bigger dysgenic trends among them than among the Japaneses.

    Of course I’m not talking about rationality nor wisdom, no human group have already reached specially the late.

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    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh

    Mongoloid no have a “southern European” analogous-groups in similar demographic numbers to compare with Europeans-caucasoid.
     
    What are Filipinos, Indonesians and Malaysians?

    When people compare whites versus east Asians versus Jews they tend to use correctly all whites, but the “best” of east Asians and the Jews.

     

    PISA Chinese scores include all groups, including the non-cognitive elite. There are indeed studies on IQ tests on rural Chinese, and they continue to find a limited but consistent IQ advantage.

    Comparisons of worldwide population do not merely use the "best", which is often defined by self-selected immigrant minority populations. That can be true of analysis of post-migration minorities, but not of population studies.

    Its probable that the East Asians largely have less openness to experience, correct. This can be overstated, though, as Japan can be an example of. Beyond that, Dr. James Thompson has pretty extensively indicated that G does indeed correlate well with a number of other positive performance factors.

    Your thesis is that northern whites would have higher or equal IQ than all other tested groups. I find this dubious.

  28. I saw quickly in the Wikipedia, again.

    G also know as general intelligence.

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  29. Maybe a precocious impression but the possible greater variety and intensity of personality traits and cognitive profiles may explain quasi-conclusive higher creative skills among Europeans and namely among areas of intra-racial frictions.

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  30. @Santoculto
    Mongoloid no have a "southern European" analogous-groups in similar demographic numbers to compare with Europeans-caucasoid.

    My essential tip here is: "east Asians are smarter on avg than whites", but if you compare for example Germans with Japaneses this general differences if not disappear will show a German advantage and even with older and bigger dysgenic trends among them than among the Japaneses.

    Of course I'm not talking about rationality nor wisdom, no human group have already reached specially the late.

    Mongoloid no have a “southern European” analogous-groups in similar demographic numbers to compare with Europeans-caucasoid.

    What are Filipinos, Indonesians and Malaysians?

    When people compare whites versus east Asians versus Jews they tend to use correctly all whites, but the “best” of east Asians and the Jews.

    PISA Chinese scores include all groups, including the non-cognitive elite. There are indeed studies on IQ tests on rural Chinese, and they continue to find a limited but consistent IQ advantage.

    Comparisons of worldwide population do not merely use the “best”, which is often defined by self-selected immigrant minority populations. That can be true of analysis of post-migration minorities, but not of population studies.

    Its probable that the East Asians largely have less openness to experience, correct. This can be overstated, though, as Japan can be an example of. Beyond that, Dr. James Thompson has pretty extensively indicated that G does indeed correlate well with a number of other positive performance factors.

    Your thesis is that northern whites would have higher or equal IQ than all other tested groups. I find this dubious.

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    • Replies: @Santoculto
    About Filipinos et all re-read my comment if you want.

    IQ is not the total landscape of this big picture, again again and again.

    Solve your ethnocentric bias, seems too strong. I do no want debate with your propaganda.

    Ok. You find it dubious. Now argue.

    I don't say all northern Europeans, specially Germans but, Europeans seems have a still large and very brilliant CREATIVE CLASSES. All human populations have their socio cognitive classes: Stabilizers of all levels, creatives, sentinels, etc.

    Most of European "achievements" has been done in some countries, Germany, France, Italy, Great Britain, Netherlands and Germanic countries like Austria. We also know higher per capita achievements in Nordic countries as well delayed achievements in Russia (explosion of literature and arts in general namely in XIX and technological advancements during sovietic period).

    I already argue that is there are different classes of gifted people. Search for high achiever, brilliant and creative gifted in the net to take note. My thesis is that among east Asians there is a disproportionate rate of high achievers than brilliant and creative gifted ones while among Europeans namely the smartest peoples we have more the other two, even in both macro races as well in any other, high achievers preponderates anyway.

    People who break rules, who live based on their individuality and or personality, usually have vivid personalities, are daydreamers, eccentric or look like that, adventurous, curious, independent thinkers, emotionally turmoiled.

    If there are many people like that among yours ok.

    Even creativity is important is not everything.

  31. @Santoculto
    Cultural conformity is no more a problem for east Asians in diaspora namely Chineses and Koreans. Japan have become more and more occidentalized and less traditional and we are seeing a increase of creative expressions but I don't know if with the same variety or diversity we usually see in the west. Same thing for chineses?? We have Taiwan, Hong Kong, Singapore and the rest of Chinese diaspora to conclude that by now chineses or at least the successful chineses don't seems very creative, superficially concluding.

    Seems everything is correlated with creativity can be predicted via openness to experience. Divergent thinking tests also seems reasonably good to predict creative achievements. East Asians seems less engaged in a variety of activities that correlates with creativity even I don't dispute their on avg higher cognitive intelligence.

    Even G and IQ performance are not the same thing and I agree, IQ performance is nearest to the G because its broader nature. So I don't think I'm completely wrong in my (this) specific statement if G/general intelligence is a structural ideal of intelligence and if IQ performance also reflect this generality.

    The ideal of G is: Symmetry of cognitive skills. But the reality is: Based on psychometric perspective perfect symmetry seems rare to be found.

    In this case I'm not talking about visuo spatial IQ versus general IQ or g (??) but verbal versus general IQ and seems ashkenazis have on disproportionate avg great discrepancy between this two aspects of intelligence.

    When people compare whites versus east Asians versus Jews they tend to use correctly all whites, but the "best" of east Asians and the Jews. And we still have the problem about Jewish IQ because "people" tend to use verbal Jewish IQ to compare. I think any idiosyncrasy must be showed but when we will compare group with group we need be more fair.

    East Asians no have a very mixed but still mongolid group just like MENA is to Caucasoid. Maybe southern east Asians are analogous to the MENA group, racial and genetically speaking, so the problem here would be unsolvable because the intermediary groups (northern-central--eastern Europeans ----- southern Europeans ---- MENA) of east Asians (Vietnameses) are less common or well grouped in the same nationalities. This make my purpose more difficult to be reached.

    The correlation between general IQ and specific IQ such a visual spatial seems relative. We can have a people where their strength is in visuo spatial so their G will be more placed there than with verbal.

    Japan have become more and more occidentalized and less traditional and we are seeing a increase of creative expressions but I don’t know if with the same variety or diversity we usually see in the west

    This seems like wild and inaccurate speculation for anyone who has been in Japan. Japan took some good ideas from the West, but I would say that its culture – complete with verbal rituals and status markers in language that go well beyond the Chinese – is no more Westernized than British and French culture was Easternized because they adopted exams for public servants after Chinese inspiration.

    Japan is most likely more creative insofar as it maintains indigenous elements in its expression.

    Your argument would be better served by South Korea, which creates a lot of media but is not much of a cultural innovator and is indeed getting heavily Westernized. Insofar as China goes, its an entirely separate and complex shishkabob, with all of the censorship and soulless worship of money, but there’s evidence that there’s a creative industries that’s rising as well.

    Insofar as creativity in technology goes, Facebook, etc. have been taking ideas from the Chinese web giants such as QQ, so there’s certainly evidence that when it comes to some forms of creativity, the Chinese are not perhaps hopeless.

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    • Replies: @Santoculto
    Most of your comment seems just a way to try to invalidate my comment. I'm trying to see where I said anything inaccurate and wild.

    You're in the wrong place, in your heart. Everything you say about your people is possibly wrongly biased. Try to do some self reflection to contain your ethnocentric instincts in the next.

    I'm Brazilian and I accept well that "my" people is not the smarter or "at least" in the same levels than other groups. Often "we" can't have everything do you can deal with it??

    You want your people be perceived as the smarter via IQ and even more creative?? All evidences go to the opposite direction.

    I don't said japaneses today IS western par excellence but long term, since when they were no culturally westernized, "total" niponic in their culture. But I don't understand why I have repeat my and easily understood statement again. Do you interpret me wrong?? Or over interpret my words?

    I said: Japaneses are become more and more westernized. It's true.

    But you understand: Japaneses become just like Americans.

    Even the very modern/western idea of cultural urban tribes young japaneses have adopted. What's up?

    Your comments about China and chineses seems mostly propaganda and not correct/neutral observations. Solve your ethnocentric bias firstly before to debate about this stuff. You take it at personal way.
  32. @Daniel Chieh

    Japan have become more and more occidentalized and less traditional and we are seeing a increase of creative expressions but I don’t know if with the same variety or diversity we usually see in the west
     
    This seems like wild and inaccurate speculation for anyone who has been in Japan. Japan took some good ideas from the West, but I would say that its culture - complete with verbal rituals and status markers in language that go well beyond the Chinese - is no more Westernized than British and French culture was Easternized because they adopted exams for public servants after Chinese inspiration.

    Japan is most likely more creative insofar as it maintains indigenous elements in its expression.

    Your argument would be better served by South Korea, which creates a lot of media but is not much of a cultural innovator and is indeed getting heavily Westernized. Insofar as China goes, its an entirely separate and complex shishkabob, with all of the censorship and soulless worship of money, but there's evidence that there's a creative industries that's rising as well.

    Insofar as creativity in technology goes, Facebook, etc. have been taking ideas from the Chinese web giants such as QQ, so there's certainly evidence that when it comes to some forms of creativity, the Chinese are not perhaps hopeless.

    Most of your comment seems just a way to try to invalidate my comment. I’m trying to see where I said anything inaccurate and wild.

    You’re in the wrong place, in your heart. Everything you say about your people is possibly wrongly biased. Try to do some self reflection to contain your ethnocentric instincts in the next.

    I’m Brazilian and I accept well that “my” people is not the smarter or “at least” in the same levels than other groups. Often “we” can’t have everything do you can deal with it??

    You want your people be perceived as the smarter via IQ and even more creative?? All evidences go to the opposite direction.

    I don’t said japaneses today IS western par excellence but long term, since when they were no culturally westernized, “total” niponic in their culture. But I don’t understand why I have repeat my and easily understood statement again. Do you interpret me wrong?? Or over interpret my words?

    I said: Japaneses are become more and more westernized. It’s true.

    But you understand: Japaneses become just like Americans.

    Even the very modern/western idea of cultural urban tribes young japaneses have adopted. What’s up?

    Your comments about China and chineses seems mostly propaganda and not correct/neutral observations. Solve your ethnocentric bias firstly before to debate about this stuff. You take it at personal way.

    Read More
  33. @Daniel Chieh

    Mongoloid no have a “southern European” analogous-groups in similar demographic numbers to compare with Europeans-caucasoid.
     
    What are Filipinos, Indonesians and Malaysians?

    When people compare whites versus east Asians versus Jews they tend to use correctly all whites, but the “best” of east Asians and the Jews.

     

    PISA Chinese scores include all groups, including the non-cognitive elite. There are indeed studies on IQ tests on rural Chinese, and they continue to find a limited but consistent IQ advantage.

    Comparisons of worldwide population do not merely use the "best", which is often defined by self-selected immigrant minority populations. That can be true of analysis of post-migration minorities, but not of population studies.

    Its probable that the East Asians largely have less openness to experience, correct. This can be overstated, though, as Japan can be an example of. Beyond that, Dr. James Thompson has pretty extensively indicated that G does indeed correlate well with a number of other positive performance factors.

    Your thesis is that northern whites would have higher or equal IQ than all other tested groups. I find this dubious.

    About Filipinos et all re-read my comment if you want.

    IQ is not the total landscape of this big picture, again again and again.

    Solve your ethnocentric bias, seems too strong. I do no want debate with your propaganda.

    Ok. You find it dubious. Now argue.

    I don’t say all northern Europeans, specially Germans but, Europeans seems have a still large and very brilliant CREATIVE CLASSES. All human populations have their socio cognitive classes: Stabilizers of all levels, creatives, sentinels, etc.

    Most of European “achievements” has been done in some countries, Germany, France, Italy, Great Britain, Netherlands and Germanic countries like Austria. We also know higher per capita achievements in Nordic countries as well delayed achievements in Russia (explosion of literature and arts in general namely in XIX and technological advancements during sovietic period).

    I already argue that is there are different classes of gifted people. Search for high achiever, brilliant and creative gifted in the net to take note. My thesis is that among east Asians there is a disproportionate rate of high achievers than brilliant and creative gifted ones while among Europeans namely the smartest peoples we have more the other two, even in both macro races as well in any other, high achievers preponderates anyway.

    People who break rules, who live based on their individuality and or personality, usually have vivid personalities, are daydreamers, eccentric or look like that, adventurous, curious, independent thinkers, emotionally turmoiled.

    If there are many people like that among yours ok.

    Even creativity is important is not everything.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    Apparently, we should just speculate from personal opinion with no regard for argument.

    Let me go over this again.

    You’re in the wrong place, in your heart. Everything you say about your people is possibly wrongly biased.

    Ad hominem, also false. I've written here before of the Asian creativity deficit. In the post before, I've written that I believe(and it has been studied) that Asians have less openness to experience.

    Also, not "my people."

    You want your people be perceived as the smarter via IQ and even more creative?? All evidences go to the opposite direction.

    I don't actually really care that much about the entire "smarter." A world full of Zuckenbergs would not be much of a world. But the evidence is that East Asians do have higher IQ, insofar as it is tested. That's all. Nothing less, nothing more.

    I have never said that we are overall, more creative. "Not entirely hopeless" equals "superior," apparently.

    Even the very modern/western idea of cultural urban tribes young japaneses have adopted. What’s up?

    I do not even begin to grok what this is supposed to mean. Tribalism has been with us since one chimpanzee gang attacked another chimpanzee gang - this not Western. Again, I disagree that Japan has necessarily Westernized that much, and reference the persistent of traditional norms, speech customs, rituals, and animistic religion that is even more "traditional" than most of East Asia.

    My experience is that Japan has modernized more than she necessarily Westernized.

    Again, I hold South Korea as a contrasting example that has indeed adopted many Western norms and I believe that Japan is the more creative of the two, insofar as developing original and unique content. This is my objection to the notion that Westernization necessarily promotes creativity.

    My "ethnocentric" bias is that I am neither Korean nor Japanese.

    Your comments about China and chineses seems mostly propaganda and not correct/neutral observations. Solve your ethnocentric bias firstly before to debate about this stuff. You take it at personal way.

    I don't. You're projecting. Flatly rejecting anything that disagrees with your worldview as "incorrect/propaganda" in spite of actual research and observations is fatuous and ruins the entire point of dialogue. I've never ever said that the Chinese are the most creative, I've merely noted that I think that there's yet potential from what I've seen, and that we might not be entirely hopeless.

    Examples of this famous Chinese propaganda, from a well known propaganda site:

    http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20170309-why-chinas-internet-reveals-where-were-headed-ourselves

    Even so, I've never objected to Murray's study that Europe has been responsible for the vast majority of inventions.

    People who break rules, who live based on their individuality and or personality, usually have vivid personalities, are daydreamers, eccentric or look like that, adventurous, curious, independent thinkers, emotionally turmoiled.

    My contempt for individuality is well known. I am, however, never claimed that it has no relation to creativity. That said, Brazil is not a shining example of effectiveness in any shape or form.

  34. I agree that macro environmental factors may have inhibited the full creative potential of most east Asian people but I don’t believe this creative ceiling of them will be greater than euros. Bear in mind that highly creative people are such a rare bird even among people’s who seems have more of them.

    I have other thesis that greater concentration capacity, psychological trait or great capacity to filter “irrelevant” information make east Asian as well cognitively smarter people on general, whatever race, smarter/ great capacity to focus but less creative. Creative geniuses usually have both, higher capacity to produce novel associations and to focus/ to become concentrated in certain tasks.

    I can be wrong about east Asian creativity if it were proved via perfect and bigger designed study specially in numerous diaspora. But I doubt.

    For artistic and ideological freedom countries like China really look bad but Chinese government have invested in education as well searched and selected gifted youngsters of all country exactly to disrupt innovations… The time will say for us if this big effort Chinese government seems is doing will have expected fruits.

    Read More
  35. @Santoculto
    About Filipinos et all re-read my comment if you want.

    IQ is not the total landscape of this big picture, again again and again.

    Solve your ethnocentric bias, seems too strong. I do no want debate with your propaganda.

    Ok. You find it dubious. Now argue.

    I don't say all northern Europeans, specially Germans but, Europeans seems have a still large and very brilliant CREATIVE CLASSES. All human populations have their socio cognitive classes: Stabilizers of all levels, creatives, sentinels, etc.

    Most of European "achievements" has been done in some countries, Germany, France, Italy, Great Britain, Netherlands and Germanic countries like Austria. We also know higher per capita achievements in Nordic countries as well delayed achievements in Russia (explosion of literature and arts in general namely in XIX and technological advancements during sovietic period).

    I already argue that is there are different classes of gifted people. Search for high achiever, brilliant and creative gifted in the net to take note. My thesis is that among east Asians there is a disproportionate rate of high achievers than brilliant and creative gifted ones while among Europeans namely the smartest peoples we have more the other two, even in both macro races as well in any other, high achievers preponderates anyway.

    People who break rules, who live based on their individuality and or personality, usually have vivid personalities, are daydreamers, eccentric or look like that, adventurous, curious, independent thinkers, emotionally turmoiled.

    If there are many people like that among yours ok.

    Even creativity is important is not everything.

    Apparently, we should just speculate from personal opinion with no regard for argument.

    Let me go over this again.

    You’re in the wrong place, in your heart. Everything you say about your people is possibly wrongly biased.

    Ad hominem, also false. I’ve written here before of the Asian creativity deficit. In the post before, I’ve written that I believe(and it has been studied) that Asians have less openness to experience.

    Also, not “my people.”

    You want your people be perceived as the smarter via IQ and even more creative?? All evidences go to the opposite direction.

    I don’t actually really care that much about the entire “smarter.” A world full of Zuckenbergs would not be much of a world. But the evidence is that East Asians do have higher IQ, insofar as it is tested. That’s all. Nothing less, nothing more.

    I have never said that we are overall, more creative. “Not entirely hopeless” equals “superior,” apparently.

    Even the very modern/western idea of cultural urban tribes young japaneses have adopted. What’s up?

    I do not even begin to grok what this is supposed to mean. Tribalism has been with us since one chimpanzee gang attacked another chimpanzee gang – this not Western. Again, I disagree that Japan has necessarily Westernized that much, and reference the persistent of traditional norms, speech customs, rituals, and animistic religion that is even more “traditional” than most of East Asia.

    My experience is that Japan has modernized more than she necessarily Westernized.

    Again, I hold South Korea as a contrasting example that has indeed adopted many Western norms and I believe that Japan is the more creative of the two, insofar as developing original and unique content. This is my objection to the notion that Westernization necessarily promotes creativity.

    My “ethnocentric” bias is that I am neither Korean nor Japanese.

    Your comments about China and chineses seems mostly propaganda and not correct/neutral observations. Solve your ethnocentric bias firstly before to debate about this stuff. You take it at personal way.

    I don’t. You’re projecting. Flatly rejecting anything that disagrees with your worldview as “incorrect/propaganda” in spite of actual research and observations is fatuous and ruins the entire point of dialogue. I’ve never ever said that the Chinese are the most creative, I’ve merely noted that I think that there’s yet potential from what I’ve seen, and that we might not be entirely hopeless.

    Examples of this famous Chinese propaganda, from a well known propaganda site:

    http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20170309-why-chinas-internet-reveals-where-were-headed-ourselves

    Even so, I’ve never objected to Murray’s study that Europe has been responsible for the vast majority of inventions.

    People who break rules, who live based on their individuality and or personality, usually have vivid personalities, are daydreamers, eccentric or look like that, adventurous, curious, independent thinkers, emotionally turmoiled.

    My contempt for individuality is well known. I am, however, never claimed that it has no relation to creativity. That said, Brazil is not a shining example of effectiveness in any shape or form.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Santoculto

    I don’t actually really care that much about the entire “smarter.” A world full of Zuckenbergs would not be much of a world. But the evidence is that East Asians do have higher IQ, insofar as it is tested. That’s all. Nothing less, nothing more.
     
    I agree about Juckerburgers.


    So explain me why finnish children and teens to do so good in PISA face to face with east asians**

    IQ tests measure ''convergent thinking'', little to do with creativity.

    Convergent thinking is needed for creativity because it's needed a basis to start something but also to diverge from...

    Divergent thinking, one of the important traits that correlates if not define creativity seems more efficient to ''measure'' it, even ''divergent thinking tests'' are not so popular than IQ tests.


    Do you know most of scores in northern Europe are under-inflated because non-native element proportion* this problem don't exist in east asian countries at least by now.


    People even can't compare modern Brazil with other countries because here the dysgenic trends are bigger. I believe before massive industrialization, rural exhodus and disorganized increase of urban areas and consequently the population size, Brazil had a higher avg IQ, above 90.

    Its probable that the East Asians largely have less openness to experience, correct. This can be overstated, though, as Japan can be an example of. Beyond that, Dr. James Thompson has pretty extensively indicated that G does indeed correlate well with a number of other positive performance factors.
     
    I admit the first responses to you i did using ''smart''phone, and i read ''improbable'' instead ''probable''.

    I commit a mistake. Sorry!!

    I'm tired with ethnocentric people who are always trying to ''rationalize'' everything slightly negative about their people's.

    Your thesis is that northern whites would have higher or equal IQ than all other tested groups. I find this dubious.
     
    Explain why.
    , @Santoculto

    My contempt for individuality is well known. I am, however, never claimed that it has no relation to creativity. That said, Brazil is not a shining example of effectiveness in any shape or form.
     
    I agree absolutely but i think China is either a greater example of that.

    Do you agree*
  36. @Daniel Chieh

    The first time I read it I think intuitively: “man, this orientals are evil”. But it’s seems more complex than my first view. It’s a sign of great empathy give the child the unique chance to have a life whatever the quality she/he had.

     

    Its a different form of sensibility.

    We simply don't credit individual life with that much value, people are extensions of their family. If you could choose your hand, would you choose a crippled one, or grow one that was unbroken? We are a culture that expects criminals and other societal failures to self-terminate, and where honor suicide is often celebrated.

    Confucianism, for example, would focus heavily on familial continuation and not on the individual. If, say, a mentally deficient boy was born and he dragged down his entire family and led to their destruction, that is a sin far greater than if he was left to die. With the tradition of fenjia, where the family was expected to evenly divide their inheritance among their sons(rather than to the firstborn), every single boy was expected had to outperform just to maintain their previous social status. This Clark-Unz eugenic effect was brutal for the individual, but led to significant improvements to the population.

    Even Mao's descendant, who despite the reasonable amount of ancestor worship that Mao Zedong gets, isn't immune from this. Mao's grandson is clearly at least mildly mentally regressed(he obviously has difficulty with higher level thought), and he regularly gets requests from the Chinese community to just kill himself.

    ;)

    This may explain why you have less creatives. Many of this “socially failures” can be very creative if not some of them be the great gems. Terrible enfant!! When we read bibliography of greatest geniuses of all kinds we find a disproportionate rate of social and emotional problems, higher than we see among general population, specially among artistic geniuses but also higher among scientific ones.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    And in other astounding discoveries made today, East Asia is not an individualistic society.

    The link between high intelligence and mental illness is often celebrated, but a metastudy has found that there isn't much link. If anything, its a bit opposite: individuals with high intelligence are more capable of compensating for mental illnesses and are able to maintain higher levels of function in spite of their other issues.

    I was not aware, though, that Isaac Newton was a criminal. And most Noble Prize winners are not exactly known for their mental issues.

    , @Santoculto
    Other thing is that many of this noble winners.... are not/ weren't really geniuses, namely in economy departments, ;)

    And many great people don't receive Nobel prizes, so....
  37. @Santoculto
    ;)


    This may explain why you have less creatives. Many of this "socially failures" can be very creative if not some of them be the great gems. Terrible enfant!! When we read bibliography of greatest geniuses of all kinds we find a disproportionate rate of social and emotional problems, higher than we see among general population, specially among artistic geniuses but also higher among scientific ones.

    And in other astounding discoveries made today, East Asia is not an individualistic society.

    The link between high intelligence and mental illness is often celebrated, but a metastudy has found that there isn’t much link. If anything, its a bit opposite: individuals with high intelligence are more capable of compensating for mental illnesses and are able to maintain higher levels of function in spite of their other issues.

    I was not aware, though, that Isaac Newton was a criminal. And most Noble Prize winners are not exactly known for their mental issues.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Santoculto

    And in other astounding discoveries made today, East Asia is not an individualistic society.
     
    You are right about it*

    Individualism is other complex psychological construct that need context as well more than one facet that interacts with this contexts.

    In terms of ''care only about kin-related people, namely direct family'' [and don't care about other people] i really don't see any great difference between western and eastern. The only difference is that north-western value individual independence to repeat the same individualistic approach.


    I was not aware, though, that Isaac Newton was a criminal. And most Noble Prize winners are not exactly known for their mental issues.
     
    He commited some crime*

    Great intelligence + creativity often result in ''mental illnesses'', namely in arts departments. Of course there are such ''sane'' people but this doesn't mean the correlation between higher intelligence, but specially higher creativity and ''mental illness'' is a myth. Myth is a very different thing. And you're saying about Nobel winners as they were only ones with recognized achievements as well without biographic sources to prove it.

    Relationship between creativity and relatives with mental disorders is quite common.

    https://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/201603/the-prodigys-brother

    It's not necessary born ''mentally ill'' but born within a family with familial historic of this intense expressions.


    http://www.bakadesuyo.com/2012/07/are-creative-people-more-likely-to-be-crazy/

    http://www.medicaldaily.com/scientists-find-truth-mad-scientist-stereotype-there-link-between-genius-and-insanity-240684

    http://www.medicaldaily.com/why-smarter-people-are-more-likely-be-mentally-ill-270039

    Do you really read or follow this type of research*

    I though you must need self-actualize, ;)

  38. @Daniel Chieh
    Apparently, we should just speculate from personal opinion with no regard for argument.

    Let me go over this again.

    You’re in the wrong place, in your heart. Everything you say about your people is possibly wrongly biased.

    Ad hominem, also false. I've written here before of the Asian creativity deficit. In the post before, I've written that I believe(and it has been studied) that Asians have less openness to experience.

    Also, not "my people."

    You want your people be perceived as the smarter via IQ and even more creative?? All evidences go to the opposite direction.

    I don't actually really care that much about the entire "smarter." A world full of Zuckenbergs would not be much of a world. But the evidence is that East Asians do have higher IQ, insofar as it is tested. That's all. Nothing less, nothing more.

    I have never said that we are overall, more creative. "Not entirely hopeless" equals "superior," apparently.

    Even the very modern/western idea of cultural urban tribes young japaneses have adopted. What’s up?

    I do not even begin to grok what this is supposed to mean. Tribalism has been with us since one chimpanzee gang attacked another chimpanzee gang - this not Western. Again, I disagree that Japan has necessarily Westernized that much, and reference the persistent of traditional norms, speech customs, rituals, and animistic religion that is even more "traditional" than most of East Asia.

    My experience is that Japan has modernized more than she necessarily Westernized.

    Again, I hold South Korea as a contrasting example that has indeed adopted many Western norms and I believe that Japan is the more creative of the two, insofar as developing original and unique content. This is my objection to the notion that Westernization necessarily promotes creativity.

    My "ethnocentric" bias is that I am neither Korean nor Japanese.

    Your comments about China and chineses seems mostly propaganda and not correct/neutral observations. Solve your ethnocentric bias firstly before to debate about this stuff. You take it at personal way.

    I don't. You're projecting. Flatly rejecting anything that disagrees with your worldview as "incorrect/propaganda" in spite of actual research and observations is fatuous and ruins the entire point of dialogue. I've never ever said that the Chinese are the most creative, I've merely noted that I think that there's yet potential from what I've seen, and that we might not be entirely hopeless.

    Examples of this famous Chinese propaganda, from a well known propaganda site:

    http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20170309-why-chinas-internet-reveals-where-were-headed-ourselves

    Even so, I've never objected to Murray's study that Europe has been responsible for the vast majority of inventions.

    People who break rules, who live based on their individuality and or personality, usually have vivid personalities, are daydreamers, eccentric or look like that, adventurous, curious, independent thinkers, emotionally turmoiled.

    My contempt for individuality is well known. I am, however, never claimed that it has no relation to creativity. That said, Brazil is not a shining example of effectiveness in any shape or form.

    I don’t actually really care that much about the entire “smarter.” A world full of Zuckenbergs would not be much of a world. But the evidence is that East Asians do have higher IQ, insofar as it is tested. That’s all. Nothing less, nothing more.

    I agree about Juckerburgers.

    So explain me why finnish children and teens to do so good in PISA face to face with east asians**

    IQ tests measure ”convergent thinking”, little to do with creativity.

    Convergent thinking is needed for creativity because it’s needed a basis to start something but also to diverge from…

    Divergent thinking, one of the important traits that correlates if not define creativity seems more efficient to ”measure” it, even ”divergent thinking tests” are not so popular than IQ tests.

    Do you know most of scores in northern Europe are under-inflated because non-native element proportion* this problem don’t exist in east asian countries at least by now.

    People even can’t compare modern Brazil with other countries because here the dysgenic trends are bigger. I believe before massive industrialization, rural exhodus and disorganized increase of urban areas and consequently the population size, Brazil had a higher avg IQ, above 90.

    Its probable that the East Asians largely have less openness to experience, correct. This can be overstated, though, as Japan can be an example of. Beyond that, Dr. James Thompson has pretty extensively indicated that G does indeed correlate well with a number of other positive performance factors.

    I admit the first responses to you i did using ”smart”phone, and i read ”improbable” instead ”probable”.

    I commit a mistake. Sorry!!

    I’m tired with ethnocentric people who are always trying to ”rationalize” everything slightly negative about their people’s.

    Your thesis is that northern whites would have higher or equal IQ than all other tested groups. I find this dubious.

    Explain why.

    Read More
  39. @Daniel Chieh
    And in other astounding discoveries made today, East Asia is not an individualistic society.

    The link between high intelligence and mental illness is often celebrated, but a metastudy has found that there isn't much link. If anything, its a bit opposite: individuals with high intelligence are more capable of compensating for mental illnesses and are able to maintain higher levels of function in spite of their other issues.

    I was not aware, though, that Isaac Newton was a criminal. And most Noble Prize winners are not exactly known for their mental issues.

    And in other astounding discoveries made today, East Asia is not an individualistic society.

    You are right about it*

    Individualism is other complex psychological construct that need context as well more than one facet that interacts with this contexts.

    In terms of ”care only about kin-related people, namely direct family” [and don't care about other people] i really don’t see any great difference between western and eastern. The only difference is that north-western value individual independence to repeat the same individualistic approach.

    I was not aware, though, that Isaac Newton was a criminal. And most Noble Prize winners are not exactly known for their mental issues.

    He commited some crime*

    Great intelligence + creativity often result in ”mental illnesses”, namely in arts departments. Of course there are such ”sane” people but this doesn’t mean the correlation between higher intelligence, but specially higher creativity and ”mental illness” is a myth. Myth is a very different thing. And you’re saying about Nobel winners as they were only ones with recognized achievements as well without biographic sources to prove it.

    Relationship between creativity and relatives with mental disorders is quite common.

    https://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/201603/the-prodigys-brother

    It’s not necessary born ”mentally ill” but born within a family with familial historic of this intense expressions.

    http://www.bakadesuyo.com/2012/07/are-creative-people-more-likely-to-be-crazy/

    http://www.medicaldaily.com/scientists-find-truth-mad-scientist-stereotype-there-link-between-genius-and-insanity-240684

    http://www.medicaldaily.com/why-smarter-people-are-more-likely-be-mentally-ill-270039

    Do you really read or follow this type of research*

    I though you must need self-actualize, ;)

    Read More
    • Replies: @Santoculto
    https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/beautiful-minds/the-creative-gifts-of-adhd/

    I found it too.

    You look for that man or woman who receive a Nobel Prize

    - don't look ''weird''


    ok, s/he's not crazy... any slight sign of mental disorder there...


    Darwin:

    -ok, he was ''normal''...

    ....

    Do you are basing in your [superficial] personal impressions or what*
  40. @Santoculto
    ;)


    This may explain why you have less creatives. Many of this "socially failures" can be very creative if not some of them be the great gems. Terrible enfant!! When we read bibliography of greatest geniuses of all kinds we find a disproportionate rate of social and emotional problems, higher than we see among general population, specially among artistic geniuses but also higher among scientific ones.

    Other thing is that many of this noble winners…. are not/ weren’t really geniuses, namely in economy departments, ;)

    And many great people don’t receive Nobel prizes, so….

    Read More
  41. @Daniel Chieh
    Apparently, we should just speculate from personal opinion with no regard for argument.

    Let me go over this again.

    You’re in the wrong place, in your heart. Everything you say about your people is possibly wrongly biased.

    Ad hominem, also false. I've written here before of the Asian creativity deficit. In the post before, I've written that I believe(and it has been studied) that Asians have less openness to experience.

    Also, not "my people."

    You want your people be perceived as the smarter via IQ and even more creative?? All evidences go to the opposite direction.

    I don't actually really care that much about the entire "smarter." A world full of Zuckenbergs would not be much of a world. But the evidence is that East Asians do have higher IQ, insofar as it is tested. That's all. Nothing less, nothing more.

    I have never said that we are overall, more creative. "Not entirely hopeless" equals "superior," apparently.

    Even the very modern/western idea of cultural urban tribes young japaneses have adopted. What’s up?

    I do not even begin to grok what this is supposed to mean. Tribalism has been with us since one chimpanzee gang attacked another chimpanzee gang - this not Western. Again, I disagree that Japan has necessarily Westernized that much, and reference the persistent of traditional norms, speech customs, rituals, and animistic religion that is even more "traditional" than most of East Asia.

    My experience is that Japan has modernized more than she necessarily Westernized.

    Again, I hold South Korea as a contrasting example that has indeed adopted many Western norms and I believe that Japan is the more creative of the two, insofar as developing original and unique content. This is my objection to the notion that Westernization necessarily promotes creativity.

    My "ethnocentric" bias is that I am neither Korean nor Japanese.

    Your comments about China and chineses seems mostly propaganda and not correct/neutral observations. Solve your ethnocentric bias firstly before to debate about this stuff. You take it at personal way.

    I don't. You're projecting. Flatly rejecting anything that disagrees with your worldview as "incorrect/propaganda" in spite of actual research and observations is fatuous and ruins the entire point of dialogue. I've never ever said that the Chinese are the most creative, I've merely noted that I think that there's yet potential from what I've seen, and that we might not be entirely hopeless.

    Examples of this famous Chinese propaganda, from a well known propaganda site:

    http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20170309-why-chinas-internet-reveals-where-were-headed-ourselves

    Even so, I've never objected to Murray's study that Europe has been responsible for the vast majority of inventions.

    People who break rules, who live based on their individuality and or personality, usually have vivid personalities, are daydreamers, eccentric or look like that, adventurous, curious, independent thinkers, emotionally turmoiled.

    My contempt for individuality is well known. I am, however, never claimed that it has no relation to creativity. That said, Brazil is not a shining example of effectiveness in any shape or form.

    My contempt for individuality is well known. I am, however, never claimed that it has no relation to creativity. That said, Brazil is not a shining example of effectiveness in any shape or form.

    I agree absolutely but i think China is either a greater example of that.

    Do you agree*

    Read More
    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh

    I agree absolutely but i think China is either a greater example of that.
     
    I'll say that most people would agree that China is significantly more functional as a nation compared to Brazil. In fact, this seems so obvious that I'm not even sure where to begin if you disagree with that - I mean, with the entire 24 times higher homicide rate, second largest consumer of hard drugs versus while China doesn't even reach US levels despite four times the population, and growth of barely 1.7% compared to let's conservatively say, 5%.

    I mean, China has problems, but she's obviously getting her act together in many ways.

    So explain me why finnish children and teens to do so good in PISA face to face with east asians**
     

    Finland is not known for either creativity or individualism; I regularly visit there, in fact. And Finland has not managed to maintain its PISA score recently at all.

    Explain why.
     
    Lack of Clark-Unz selection. Furthermore, such success would have been obvious even from the back of envelope comparison; stereotypes exist for a reason. East Asians outperform on standardized tests, overall educational attainment and income, especially in countries they are immigrants to. This is also seen with Jewish attainment, so the casual observation coincides with the scientific metric.

    Psychology Today is infamous for fluff and unscientific papers. Its basically an online tabloid. There's also a piece there that talks about how more masturbation is better for you, and how masculinity needs to be redefined. Its a tabloid.

    Beyond that, I really find talking about creativity to be futile since its largely not something that can be testable. Its definitely in the woo-woo social science arena which also has given us 50 genders, post-structuralism and other nonsense.

    I'm absolutely fine with Charles Murray's work which finds that almost all accomplishment has come from Europe; its sensible, well documented, and indeed indicates effective European creativity. Extending that whimsically to "individualism", "embrace mental illness" and "IQ is not real" is pointless, especially the way you're doing it, without any sources and basically favoring your opinions as evidence.

    I mean, by the time that we've gotten to:


    And many great people don’t receive Nobel prizes, so….

    Other thing is that many of this noble winners…. are not/ weren’t really geniuses, namely in economy departments, ;)

     

    We might as well be talking about how black women were Hidden Figures essential to the moon landing and pervasive invisible systemtic discrimination hides all of the "truly great." There's no conversation if we can't even settle on common parameters such as "Noble Prize winners in science exhibit innovative contributions to humanity."
  42. @Santoculto

    My contempt for individuality is well known. I am, however, never claimed that it has no relation to creativity. That said, Brazil is not a shining example of effectiveness in any shape or form.
     
    I agree absolutely but i think China is either a greater example of that.

    Do you agree*

    I agree absolutely but i think China is either a greater example of that.

    I’ll say that most people would agree that China is significantly more functional as a nation compared to Brazil. In fact, this seems so obvious that I’m not even sure where to begin if you disagree with that – I mean, with the entire 24 times higher homicide rate, second largest consumer of hard drugs versus while China doesn’t even reach US levels despite four times the population, and growth of barely 1.7% compared to let’s conservatively say, 5%.

    I mean, China has problems, but she’s obviously getting her act together in many ways.

    So explain me why finnish children and teens to do so good in PISA face to face with east asians**

    Finland is not known for either creativity or individualism; I regularly visit there, in fact. And Finland has not managed to maintain its PISA score recently at all.

    Explain why.

    Lack of Clark-Unz selection. Furthermore, such success would have been obvious even from the back of envelope comparison; stereotypes exist for a reason. East Asians outperform on standardized tests, overall educational attainment and income, especially in countries they are immigrants to. This is also seen with Jewish attainment, so the casual observation coincides with the scientific metric.

    Psychology Today is infamous for fluff and unscientific papers. Its basically an online tabloid. There’s also a piece there that talks about how more masturbation is better for you, and how masculinity needs to be redefined. Its a tabloid.

    Beyond that, I really find talking about creativity to be futile since its largely not something that can be testable. Its definitely in the woo-woo social science arena which also has given us 50 genders, post-structuralism and other nonsense.

    I’m absolutely fine with Charles Murray’s work which finds that almost all accomplishment has come from Europe; its sensible, well documented, and indeed indicates effective European creativity. Extending that whimsically to “individualism”, “embrace mental illness” and “IQ is not real” is pointless, especially the way you’re doing it, without any sources and basically favoring your opinions as evidence.

    I mean, by the time that we’ve gotten to:

    And many great people don’t receive Nobel prizes, so….

    Other thing is that many of this noble winners…. are not/ weren’t really geniuses, namely in economy departments, ;)

    We might as well be talking about how black women were Hidden Figures essential to the moon landing and pervasive invisible systemtic discrimination hides all of the “truly great.” There’s no conversation if we can’t even settle on common parameters such as “Noble Prize winners in science exhibit innovative contributions to humanity.”

    Read More
    • Replies: @Santoculto
    I don't know if I want refute this comment specially in the part you criticize psychological today and I agree that this magazine is a hetero geneous bunch of... Great, avg and yes, horrible articles. But I will not condemn all psychological today, period.

    What amaze me at negative way about your response is that seems you don't read any of my links...to give this poor judgment...

    "Psychological today", seems there is only one article of this magazine I linked, usually take scientific research of all psychological kinds and in this case the study is not at sociological one, so


    I will give to you a opportunity to redeem yourself because it was a very poor response. I'm sorry for you. The termanian version of what giftedness is and how gifted people usually are seems so rooted that you instantaneously deny any counter-evidence. Why??
    , @Santoculto
    I don't understand your last response, about Noble prize, maybe you misunderstood me.

    Jews and east Asians who are not individualistic as northwestern Europeans tend to practice ethnic nepotism. Many east Asians in the diaspora and in the motherland cheat this tests. I hope it's not huge enough to have a bigger impact. Apples and oranges.

    In the same conditions, without white ethnosadomasochism, without affirmative action, without self selection, with everyone individualistic east Asians and Jews included we really will can compare apples with apples.

    I have a mental ill uncle and I'm against embrace mental disorder such pathological liar or psychosis he have. It's not that white or black thinking. Embrace or not disorders. It's always about analyze correctly to give correct judgments and deny the etiological relation between creativity and broader spectrum of psychological and cognitive profiles mental disorders included it's just dumb. I also and again think your denial about it talk more about you than about this matter.
    , @Santoculto
    Yes and Finland score higher than Chinese and Koreans, why??

    About individualism Finland is far to be similar to China in terms of collectivism.

    Finnish children and teens study less time than their east Asian counterparts but they score the same. Same for white Americans...
    , @Santoculto
    Significantly "functional" than Brazil seems quite right but China still is in the middle of standard living and qualify of life. China have a first world economy size but it's a "emergent variant" of third world nations.

    Your criticize of masturbation maybe is good for you article show by now you dislike or tend to reprove quickly this kind of divergent thinking,

  43. @Santoculto

    And in other astounding discoveries made today, East Asia is not an individualistic society.
     
    You are right about it*

    Individualism is other complex psychological construct that need context as well more than one facet that interacts with this contexts.

    In terms of ''care only about kin-related people, namely direct family'' [and don't care about other people] i really don't see any great difference between western and eastern. The only difference is that north-western value individual independence to repeat the same individualistic approach.


    I was not aware, though, that Isaac Newton was a criminal. And most Noble Prize winners are not exactly known for their mental issues.
     
    He commited some crime*

    Great intelligence + creativity often result in ''mental illnesses'', namely in arts departments. Of course there are such ''sane'' people but this doesn't mean the correlation between higher intelligence, but specially higher creativity and ''mental illness'' is a myth. Myth is a very different thing. And you're saying about Nobel winners as they were only ones with recognized achievements as well without biographic sources to prove it.

    Relationship between creativity and relatives with mental disorders is quite common.

    https://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/201603/the-prodigys-brother

    It's not necessary born ''mentally ill'' but born within a family with familial historic of this intense expressions.


    http://www.bakadesuyo.com/2012/07/are-creative-people-more-likely-to-be-crazy/

    http://www.medicaldaily.com/scientists-find-truth-mad-scientist-stereotype-there-link-between-genius-and-insanity-240684

    http://www.medicaldaily.com/why-smarter-people-are-more-likely-be-mentally-ill-270039

    Do you really read or follow this type of research*

    I though you must need self-actualize, ;)

    https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/beautiful-minds/the-creative-gifts-of-adhd/

    I found it too.

    You look for that man or woman who receive a Nobel Prize

    - don’t look ”weird”

    ok, s/he’s not crazy… any slight sign of mental disorder there…

    Darwin:

    -ok, he was ”normal”…

    ….

    Do you are basing in your [superficial] personal impressions or what*

    Read More
  44. @Daniel Chieh

    I agree absolutely but i think China is either a greater example of that.
     
    I'll say that most people would agree that China is significantly more functional as a nation compared to Brazil. In fact, this seems so obvious that I'm not even sure where to begin if you disagree with that - I mean, with the entire 24 times higher homicide rate, second largest consumer of hard drugs versus while China doesn't even reach US levels despite four times the population, and growth of barely 1.7% compared to let's conservatively say, 5%.

    I mean, China has problems, but she's obviously getting her act together in many ways.

    So explain me why finnish children and teens to do so good in PISA face to face with east asians**
     

    Finland is not known for either creativity or individualism; I regularly visit there, in fact. And Finland has not managed to maintain its PISA score recently at all.

    Explain why.
     
    Lack of Clark-Unz selection. Furthermore, such success would have been obvious even from the back of envelope comparison; stereotypes exist for a reason. East Asians outperform on standardized tests, overall educational attainment and income, especially in countries they are immigrants to. This is also seen with Jewish attainment, so the casual observation coincides with the scientific metric.

    Psychology Today is infamous for fluff and unscientific papers. Its basically an online tabloid. There's also a piece there that talks about how more masturbation is better for you, and how masculinity needs to be redefined. Its a tabloid.

    Beyond that, I really find talking about creativity to be futile since its largely not something that can be testable. Its definitely in the woo-woo social science arena which also has given us 50 genders, post-structuralism and other nonsense.

    I'm absolutely fine with Charles Murray's work which finds that almost all accomplishment has come from Europe; its sensible, well documented, and indeed indicates effective European creativity. Extending that whimsically to "individualism", "embrace mental illness" and "IQ is not real" is pointless, especially the way you're doing it, without any sources and basically favoring your opinions as evidence.

    I mean, by the time that we've gotten to:


    And many great people don’t receive Nobel prizes, so….

    Other thing is that many of this noble winners…. are not/ weren’t really geniuses, namely in economy departments, ;)

     

    We might as well be talking about how black women were Hidden Figures essential to the moon landing and pervasive invisible systemtic discrimination hides all of the "truly great." There's no conversation if we can't even settle on common parameters such as "Noble Prize winners in science exhibit innovative contributions to humanity."

    I don’t know if I want refute this comment specially in the part you criticize psychological today and I agree that this magazine is a hetero geneous bunch of… Great, avg and yes, horrible articles. But I will not condemn all psychological today, period.

    What amaze me at negative way about your response is that seems you don’t read any of my links…to give this poor judgment…

    “Psychological today”, seems there is only one article of this magazine I linked, usually take scientific research of all psychological kinds and in this case the study is not at sociological one, so

    I will give to you a opportunity to redeem yourself because it was a very poor response. I’m sorry for you. The termanian version of what giftedness is and how gifted people usually are seems so rooted that you instantaneously deny any counter-evidence. Why??

    Read More
  45. @Daniel Chieh

    I agree absolutely but i think China is either a greater example of that.
     
    I'll say that most people would agree that China is significantly more functional as a nation compared to Brazil. In fact, this seems so obvious that I'm not even sure where to begin if you disagree with that - I mean, with the entire 24 times higher homicide rate, second largest consumer of hard drugs versus while China doesn't even reach US levels despite four times the population, and growth of barely 1.7% compared to let's conservatively say, 5%.

    I mean, China has problems, but she's obviously getting her act together in many ways.

    So explain me why finnish children and teens to do so good in PISA face to face with east asians**
     

    Finland is not known for either creativity or individualism; I regularly visit there, in fact. And Finland has not managed to maintain its PISA score recently at all.

    Explain why.
     
    Lack of Clark-Unz selection. Furthermore, such success would have been obvious even from the back of envelope comparison; stereotypes exist for a reason. East Asians outperform on standardized tests, overall educational attainment and income, especially in countries they are immigrants to. This is also seen with Jewish attainment, so the casual observation coincides with the scientific metric.

    Psychology Today is infamous for fluff and unscientific papers. Its basically an online tabloid. There's also a piece there that talks about how more masturbation is better for you, and how masculinity needs to be redefined. Its a tabloid.

    Beyond that, I really find talking about creativity to be futile since its largely not something that can be testable. Its definitely in the woo-woo social science arena which also has given us 50 genders, post-structuralism and other nonsense.

    I'm absolutely fine with Charles Murray's work which finds that almost all accomplishment has come from Europe; its sensible, well documented, and indeed indicates effective European creativity. Extending that whimsically to "individualism", "embrace mental illness" and "IQ is not real" is pointless, especially the way you're doing it, without any sources and basically favoring your opinions as evidence.

    I mean, by the time that we've gotten to:


    And many great people don’t receive Nobel prizes, so….

    Other thing is that many of this noble winners…. are not/ weren’t really geniuses, namely in economy departments, ;)

     

    We might as well be talking about how black women were Hidden Figures essential to the moon landing and pervasive invisible systemtic discrimination hides all of the "truly great." There's no conversation if we can't even settle on common parameters such as "Noble Prize winners in science exhibit innovative contributions to humanity."

    I don’t understand your last response, about Noble prize, maybe you misunderstood me.

    Jews and east Asians who are not individualistic as northwestern Europeans tend to practice ethnic nepotism. Many east Asians in the diaspora and in the motherland cheat this tests. I hope it’s not huge enough to have a bigger impact. Apples and oranges.

    In the same conditions, without white ethnosadomasochism, without affirmative action, without self selection, with everyone individualistic east Asians and Jews included we really will can compare apples with apples.

    I have a mental ill uncle and I’m against embrace mental disorder such pathological liar or psychosis he have. It’s not that white or black thinking. Embrace or not disorders. It’s always about analyze correctly to give correct judgments and deny the etiological relation between creativity and broader spectrum of psychological and cognitive profiles mental disorders included it’s just dumb. I also and again think your denial about it talk more about you than about this matter.

    Read More
  46. @Daniel Chieh

    I agree absolutely but i think China is either a greater example of that.
     
    I'll say that most people would agree that China is significantly more functional as a nation compared to Brazil. In fact, this seems so obvious that I'm not even sure where to begin if you disagree with that - I mean, with the entire 24 times higher homicide rate, second largest consumer of hard drugs versus while China doesn't even reach US levels despite four times the population, and growth of barely 1.7% compared to let's conservatively say, 5%.

    I mean, China has problems, but she's obviously getting her act together in many ways.

    So explain me why finnish children and teens to do so good in PISA face to face with east asians**
     

    Finland is not known for either creativity or individualism; I regularly visit there, in fact. And Finland has not managed to maintain its PISA score recently at all.

    Explain why.
     
    Lack of Clark-Unz selection. Furthermore, such success would have been obvious even from the back of envelope comparison; stereotypes exist for a reason. East Asians outperform on standardized tests, overall educational attainment and income, especially in countries they are immigrants to. This is also seen with Jewish attainment, so the casual observation coincides with the scientific metric.

    Psychology Today is infamous for fluff and unscientific papers. Its basically an online tabloid. There's also a piece there that talks about how more masturbation is better for you, and how masculinity needs to be redefined. Its a tabloid.

    Beyond that, I really find talking about creativity to be futile since its largely not something that can be testable. Its definitely in the woo-woo social science arena which also has given us 50 genders, post-structuralism and other nonsense.

    I'm absolutely fine with Charles Murray's work which finds that almost all accomplishment has come from Europe; its sensible, well documented, and indeed indicates effective European creativity. Extending that whimsically to "individualism", "embrace mental illness" and "IQ is not real" is pointless, especially the way you're doing it, without any sources and basically favoring your opinions as evidence.

    I mean, by the time that we've gotten to:


    And many great people don’t receive Nobel prizes, so….

    Other thing is that many of this noble winners…. are not/ weren’t really geniuses, namely in economy departments, ;)

     

    We might as well be talking about how black women were Hidden Figures essential to the moon landing and pervasive invisible systemtic discrimination hides all of the "truly great." There's no conversation if we can't even settle on common parameters such as "Noble Prize winners in science exhibit innovative contributions to humanity."

    Yes and Finland score higher than Chinese and Koreans, why??

    About individualism Finland is far to be similar to China in terms of collectivism.

    Finnish children and teens study less time than their east Asian counterparts but they score the same. Same for white Americans…

    Read More
    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh

    Yes and Finland score higher than Chinese and Koreans, why??


     

    Because Finland did not, at least not in math.

    2015 MATH

    ..
    4 Taiwan
    5 Japan
    6 China
    7 South Korea
    ..
    13 Finland


    Finland has an EXTREMELY scholastic environment. A friend of mine is thinking of taking the degree program to be a waitress, for example. There's a reason why it scores so well.

    Finland's education system also emphasizes physics above all others, which likely lifted their science scores, but still behind Japan's and Singapore's. Not to mention, 2015 may have been an anomaly, as in the last PISA, 2012, China took the #1 spot.

    But you know, perhaps the Finnish have higher IQs. Such things can be tested for and I'm not opposed to testing for it. I'm opposed to whimsical theorizing with no effort to actually put out anything falsifiable.

    Beyond that, I have a feeling that you have neither been to Finland, nor actually know any Finnish. Seriously, creativity, individuality? Its a country of a highly cohesive people who are known for their love of nature, intensely isolated natures, and one of the highest suicide rates in a developed country.

    Many east Asians in the diaspora and in the motherland cheat this tests.
     

    Yes, and somehow, we also cheat our way into degree programs, higher income jobs, and overall technical ability. At some point, responding to you doesn't seem worth it anymore.
  47. @Daniel Chieh

    I agree absolutely but i think China is either a greater example of that.
     
    I'll say that most people would agree that China is significantly more functional as a nation compared to Brazil. In fact, this seems so obvious that I'm not even sure where to begin if you disagree with that - I mean, with the entire 24 times higher homicide rate, second largest consumer of hard drugs versus while China doesn't even reach US levels despite four times the population, and growth of barely 1.7% compared to let's conservatively say, 5%.

    I mean, China has problems, but she's obviously getting her act together in many ways.

    So explain me why finnish children and teens to do so good in PISA face to face with east asians**
     

    Finland is not known for either creativity or individualism; I regularly visit there, in fact. And Finland has not managed to maintain its PISA score recently at all.

    Explain why.
     
    Lack of Clark-Unz selection. Furthermore, such success would have been obvious even from the back of envelope comparison; stereotypes exist for a reason. East Asians outperform on standardized tests, overall educational attainment and income, especially in countries they are immigrants to. This is also seen with Jewish attainment, so the casual observation coincides with the scientific metric.

    Psychology Today is infamous for fluff and unscientific papers. Its basically an online tabloid. There's also a piece there that talks about how more masturbation is better for you, and how masculinity needs to be redefined. Its a tabloid.

    Beyond that, I really find talking about creativity to be futile since its largely not something that can be testable. Its definitely in the woo-woo social science arena which also has given us 50 genders, post-structuralism and other nonsense.

    I'm absolutely fine with Charles Murray's work which finds that almost all accomplishment has come from Europe; its sensible, well documented, and indeed indicates effective European creativity. Extending that whimsically to "individualism", "embrace mental illness" and "IQ is not real" is pointless, especially the way you're doing it, without any sources and basically favoring your opinions as evidence.

    I mean, by the time that we've gotten to:


    And many great people don’t receive Nobel prizes, so….

    Other thing is that many of this noble winners…. are not/ weren’t really geniuses, namely in economy departments, ;)

     

    We might as well be talking about how black women were Hidden Figures essential to the moon landing and pervasive invisible systemtic discrimination hides all of the "truly great." There's no conversation if we can't even settle on common parameters such as "Noble Prize winners in science exhibit innovative contributions to humanity."

    Significantly “functional” than Brazil seems quite right but China still is in the middle of standard living and qualify of life. China have a first world economy size but it’s a “emergent variant” of third world nations.

    Your criticize of masturbation maybe is good for you article show by now you dislike or tend to reprove quickly this kind of divergent thinking,

    Read More
  48. @Santoculto
    Yes and Finland score higher than Chinese and Koreans, why??

    About individualism Finland is far to be similar to China in terms of collectivism.

    Finnish children and teens study less time than their east Asian counterparts but they score the same. Same for white Americans...

    Yes and Finland score higher than Chinese and Koreans, why??

    Because Finland did not, at least not in math.

    2015 MATH

    ..
    4 Taiwan
    5 Japan
    6 China
    7 South Korea
    ..
    13 Finland

    Finland has an EXTREMELY scholastic environment. A friend of mine is thinking of taking the degree program to be a waitress, for example. There’s a reason why it scores so well.

    Finland’s education system also emphasizes physics above all others, which likely lifted their science scores, but still behind Japan’s and Singapore’s. Not to mention, 2015 may have been an anomaly, as in the last PISA, 2012, China took the #1 spot.

    But you know, perhaps the Finnish have higher IQs. Such things can be tested for and I’m not opposed to testing for it. I’m opposed to whimsical theorizing with no effort to actually put out anything falsifiable.

    Beyond that, I have a feeling that you have neither been to Finland, nor actually know any Finnish. Seriously, creativity, individuality? Its a country of a highly cohesive people who are known for their love of nature, intensely isolated natures, and one of the highest suicide rates in a developed country.

    Many east Asians in the diaspora and in the motherland cheat this tests.

    Yes, and somehow, we also cheat our way into degree programs, higher income jobs, and overall technical ability. At some point, responding to you doesn’t seem worth it anymore.

    Read More
    • Agree: Dan Hayes
    • Replies: @Santoculto
    Really??

    I watch a documentary showing the opposite of "intense educational program" you are saying here. That Finnish youngsters are NORMAL people who have a normal life and "study" at normal levels, on avg. What possibly helps a lot Finnish to do well in school is their trends to introversion/capacity to focus and emotional stability.

    As well happen in Sweden, Norway, Denmark and Iceland, scholastic environment is NORMAL, without stupid parents who push too much their pupils, and without youngsters who study too much forced by their insane parents, whimsical thinking that there is super difference in study above the good sense and not, specially if you already have intrinsic facilities. Old school learning, what chineses seems have practiced since a long long time doesn't work because it is based exactly on pretend to be factual thinking that everyone must need be exposed hardly to learn something while intrinsic motivation and cognitive nature of people already answer at least half of it. And in the end after expensive waste of time many if not most young people will learn OR memorize informations instead really learn, to know firstly if these informations are right and you need lateral thinking or one of the facets of creativity as well wisdom to analyze, criticize and judge better as well intellectual independence, something I thought it's difficult to find among your precious people.


    Humanities is so important, the basis of societal knowledge, that was dragged by Jewish mafia since the 60's to disturb the already disturbed western society. Little effort to attack engineering because the first is about the mind and hearts of people. But i think east Asians tend to look down to the humanities... Just like: Confucianism is extremely important for us...but humanities not".... What??

    Finland value teacher profession even this classe no have the highest payment, they have a lot of social benefits and social prestige.

    I thought Finland do well in Pisa since the first tests. You can't explain why white Americans do well very near to east Asian imported students and taking into account "whites" are a bunch of different people even MENA has been labeled as white in US.

    "Cohesive society" you want to say "lower social inequality", what your PRECIOUS China no have??

    I don't need been in China to know this country is a giant piece of ... I need?? I don't think so. Do you already go to Brazil?? Or not?

    Yes, higher IQ but little creativity as certain people in the extreme east...

    I don't think you are aware that you're not so protected from magical thinking as you think...

    Well I think the difference between the top and the 13 place is not so high that you are saying...
  49. notanon says:
    @Anonne
    The golden rule doesn't mimic kin selection. Furthermore, the kinship coefficients fall drastically beyond very close relatives, regardless of how homogeneous or endogamous a population is.

    if you believed that you wouldn’t have felt the need to write the second part

    Read More
  50. @Daniel Chieh

    Yes and Finland score higher than Chinese and Koreans, why??


     

    Because Finland did not, at least not in math.

    2015 MATH

    ..
    4 Taiwan
    5 Japan
    6 China
    7 South Korea
    ..
    13 Finland


    Finland has an EXTREMELY scholastic environment. A friend of mine is thinking of taking the degree program to be a waitress, for example. There's a reason why it scores so well.

    Finland's education system also emphasizes physics above all others, which likely lifted their science scores, but still behind Japan's and Singapore's. Not to mention, 2015 may have been an anomaly, as in the last PISA, 2012, China took the #1 spot.

    But you know, perhaps the Finnish have higher IQs. Such things can be tested for and I'm not opposed to testing for it. I'm opposed to whimsical theorizing with no effort to actually put out anything falsifiable.

    Beyond that, I have a feeling that you have neither been to Finland, nor actually know any Finnish. Seriously, creativity, individuality? Its a country of a highly cohesive people who are known for their love of nature, intensely isolated natures, and one of the highest suicide rates in a developed country.

    Many east Asians in the diaspora and in the motherland cheat this tests.
     

    Yes, and somehow, we also cheat our way into degree programs, higher income jobs, and overall technical ability. At some point, responding to you doesn't seem worth it anymore.

    Really??

    I watch a documentary showing the opposite of “intense educational program” you are saying here. That Finnish youngsters are NORMAL people who have a normal life and “study” at normal levels, on avg. What possibly helps a lot Finnish to do well in school is their trends to introversion/capacity to focus and emotional stability.

    As well happen in Sweden, Norway, Denmark and Iceland, scholastic environment is NORMAL, without stupid parents who push too much their pupils, and without youngsters who study too much forced by their insane parents, whimsical thinking that there is super difference in study above the good sense and not, specially if you already have intrinsic facilities. Old school learning, what chineses seems have practiced since a long long time doesn’t work because it is based exactly on pretend to be factual thinking that everyone must need be exposed hardly to learn something while intrinsic motivation and cognitive nature of people already answer at least half of it. And in the end after expensive waste of time many if not most young people will learn OR memorize informations instead really learn, to know firstly if these informations are right and you need lateral thinking or one of the facets of creativity as well wisdom to analyze, criticize and judge better as well intellectual independence, something I thought it’s difficult to find among your precious people.

    Humanities is so important, the basis of societal knowledge, that was dragged by Jewish mafia since the 60′s to disturb the already disturbed western society. Little effort to attack engineering because the first is about the mind and hearts of people. But i think east Asians tend to look down to the humanities… Just like: Confucianism is extremely important for us…but humanities not”…. What??

    Finland value teacher profession even this classe no have the highest payment, they have a lot of social benefits and social prestige.

    I thought Finland do well in Pisa since the first tests. You can’t explain why white Americans do well very near to east Asian imported students and taking into account “whites” are a bunch of different people even MENA has been labeled as white in US.

    “Cohesive society” you want to say “lower social inequality”, what your PRECIOUS China no have??

    I don’t need been in China to know this country is a giant piece of … I need?? I don’t think so. Do you already go to Brazil?? Or not?

    Yes, higher IQ but little creativity as certain people in the extreme east…

    I don’t think you are aware that you’re not so protected from magical thinking as you think…

    Well I think the difference between the top and the 13 place is not so high that you are saying…

    Read More
  51. The idea that Finland is collective as China is absurd. You are ok?? Finland is less individualistic than for example anglosphere, which are open to not so open people as you seems to be… But nothing so eastern authoritarianism, ;)

    Read More
  52. LondonBob says:
    @Boris N

    The old testament is a howto guide on ethnic cleansing, eugenics and proclaiming oneself the master race, so this is hardly surprising.
     
    But your idea does not explain why Christians who consider the Old Testament sacrosanct as well do not act like Jews. Has the New Testament nullified the Old Testament's Jewish mentality? I doubt that. More likely modern Judaism is a made-up religion created during the last half of the 1st millennium AD. So it's hardly anything about the Bible.

    However, considering that Protestants respect and follow the Old Testament more than other Christians, there might be some Old Testament patterns while America was being created. American exceptionalism is something of the Old Testament's Israelites's exceptionalism.

    True Rabbinical Judaism is about the Talmud, Jesus pointed this out in the New Testament when he criticised the Pharisees (Rabbis in today’s language) for inventing things, the oral law. Rabbinical Judaism has absolutely nothing to do with the bible or Christianity.

    Read More
  53. anon says:

    Have you ever watched British reality TV with criminals? There’s no recidivist who wouldn’t speak strongly, during his few hours outside, about his will to “walk on the straight and narrow”. You’d think that they are a parody of the sitcom Porridge, rather than the other way around. Apparently prison psychologists in the west think that they can talk crims into an honest life. In the places where these ridiculous has been implemented as state policy, prisoners are rewarded with early release for talking to shrinks and repeating whatever the shrinks want to hear. (There’s also this BS about people’s beliefs being swayed by merely stating something, which might be true about Ivy undergrads discussing the virtues of water polo with a psych research assistant, but not when it comes to deep, defining beliefs.)

    All in all, British crims have massive incentives to say bs about how they’ll never do it again, even though, since the eighties it’s been known that crims say these things only to please the shrink. In the same vein, when an Indian says he’ll not force his wife get an abortion for Down, you must understand it’s all a charade for the entertainment of the interviewer. You must recall the reality: back home, they abort ~10% of their fetuses for being girls. I am pretty sure Indian middle classes have one of the lowest prevalence of Down, with or without this poll. Any Indian who says they wouldn’t do it is just trying to please the Westerners who have been bullying them for long to give up on their “eugenics”. He might sincerely believe he wouldn’t do it… except that, when the time comes, he’ll do it.

    Don’t take these polls to seriously. They are not testing the ability of terminating pregnancies, as much as the ability and / or desire to please the interviewer.

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