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pray-for-israel

The Knesset has just formally passed a Basic Law stipulating that Israel is “the historical homeland of the Jewish people and they have an exclusive right to national self-determination in it.”

Jerusalem is furthermore defined as the “complete and untied… capital of Israel.”

Power summary:

  • Jews constitute 75% of the Israeli population, but they have no complexes about proclaiming their country a Jewish state. As Richard Spencer might approvingly say, the Jews in Israel have “become what they are.”
  • Russians constitute 81% of the Russian population, or 83% including Belorussians and Ukrainians, but the slogan “Russia for Russians” is considered to be extremist by the government and the (((liberal intelligentsia))) of Kats, Shats, and Albats (who all seems to be rather silent on the new Israeli laws; one ever so wonders why).

Even so, handshakeworthy opinion in the West proclaims Putler, not Netanyahu, to be the “godfather of extreme nationalism“.

And it is Russians who are the racists and bigots for not having any blacks on their football team – not Israeli Jews, half of whose schoolchildren say that Arabs shouldn’t have the right to vote.

Not that there’s anything wrong with any of that that, mind you.

As everyone knows, I am one of the biggest philo-Semites on the Internet, and thus I have always urged people to learn calm, moderate nationalism from the Jews.

Imitation being the sincerest form of flattery, here is what Russians would have to do to pay homage to Zionism, as is the sacred duty of every goyim:

  • Sweep away the fake and gay post-sovok construct known as the Russian Federation, including its even faker and gayer ethnic minority autonomies;
  • Proclaim Russia as a Russian State;
  • Proclaim Kiev as the “complete and untied… capital of Russia”;
  • Fund Museums of the Russian Genocide throughout Russia and abroad to make sure everyone thinks of Russians as the victims.
  • Criminalize interfaith marriages.

I don’t see how anybody could have any issues with this whatsoever. If anything, failing to do any of this will be anti-Semitic, and we certainly can’t have that.

Obviously, American and European nationalists must advance with similar considerations.

 
• Category: Humor • Tags: Israel, Jews, Nationalism, Russia 
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  1. Criminalize interfaith marriages

    As far as I know, they don’t do that in Israel, they just don’t have civil marriage and leave it to religious communities; but iirc they do recognize interfaith marriages contracted abroad (e.g. Cyprus).
    Anyway, I admit when I read about that law, my first reaction was “Nice, I’d like something like that as well”.
    Will be interesting to see how this will affect Israel’s image in the next few years.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    , @Dave Pinsen
  2. fnn says:

    Interesting stuff about the complications of the concept of “nationality” in Israel:

    https://mondoweiss.net/2016/03/israelis-dont-exist/

    In Israeli ID cards, there is no Israeli nationality (LEOM in Hebrew) – only Israeli citizenship (EZRAHUT in Hebrew). Within the Israeli internal registry there exist about 130 different “nationalities” that the Israeli state recognises. Whilst in the new biometric ID (see photo above) Israel omits specifying “citizenship” or “nationality”, it has mentioned “nationality” on older ones (see photo below) or later written “Citizenship-Israeli” and added an additional backslip where “nationality” and “religion” are mentioned. Whilst an “Arab” for example will be listed under “religion” as a Christian, or a Muslim etc., Jews will have BOTH their nationality and religion listed as “Jews” by default. The Jewish aspect is thus considered by the state as an absolutist national-religious unity, by default. Whatever the State chooses to specify or omit as items on the front or the back of the cards, for any sort of national convenience, it has its own internal registry which specifies these mentioned items.

    There are those who have tried to attain recognition of their nationality as “Israeli”, but those who have tried receive the standard answer from the Ministry of the Interior, that “it was decided not to recognize an Israeli nationality”.
    Now this is very irregular, and would look really bad abroad. I mean, doesn’t it?

    So in order to conceal this irregularity, Israel pretends to be normal – here’s how it’s done:

    I have an Israeli passport. I just looked it up, to be sure:

    In the English section titled “Nationality” it says in English “Israeli”. Oh but wait a minute; didn’t the Ministry of the Interior explicitly say that it doesn’t recognize such a thing? So what is written in Hebrew on my passport, in the corresponding section? In Hebrew, it says “Citizenship – Israeli.” So it translates “Nationality” to the Hebrew term for “Citizenship.” That way it doesn’t imply that there is an Israeli Nationality in the Hebrew terminology. But it does do so in the English version.

    Marnie March 26, 2016, 2:35 am
    “So it has two sets of definitions: one inside Israel, one abroad. Let’s call a spade a spade: the State of Israel lies about its definitions and misrepresents them internationally.”

    I don’t have an israeli passport. My ID card shows my place of birth – united states – has ******** for nationality. Inside israel I have no nationality. I don’t know what it would say on my israeli passport under “citizenship” if I had one. This is the internal israeli method of separating the Jew by birth from a convert so any time I have to present my ID card, I have no identity. I was so self-conscious about this difference for a long time but was told many years ago that converts and Russian Jews have asterisks under nationality – which confirms my understanding that converts in israel are seen as fakes, as are Russian Jews. Fine by me.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  3. utu says:

    calm, moderate nationalism from the Jews

    You are joking. It seems to be calm and moderate only because nobody can talk about it.

    • Agree: Yevardian
  4. Dmitry says:

    It would be cool if Israel would move to a moderate-right orientation. In my opinion, the elite are more suicidally liberal than in Russia, and situation in Israel is kind of precarious compared any other countries (whether it survives or not). But this law names Jews as the titular nationality is only a symbolic one. For now, Israel is still acting as a liberal (Obama style liberal) dictatorship, because it is controlled by Supreme Court judges who have ultimate authority in allowing laws (i.e. preventing them deporting Sudanese, etc).

    A future law which could change the situation in Israel, would be what they call the “override law”, which would allow the parliament to override the Supreme Court. However, they cannot pass this law this year because of the current coalition (one party does not allow it).

    Controversy about the override proposal was happening in April.

    https://www.jpost.com/Opinion/THINK-ABOUT-IT-Governability-democracy-and-the-override-clause-553039

    Also some conflicts with the EU in relation to this I have been reading about.

    https://en.mida.org.il/2018/07/02/attack-the-right-the-eu-is-fighting-israels-government-through-israeli-ngos/

    -

    I can’t see benefit for Israel of this law making Jews the titular nationality, except perhaps in one area – negotiations with Palestinian Authority. Usually they always say “Abbas has to recognize Israel is a Jewish state.” Now surely they don’t need Abbas to recognize is a Jewish state, since it’s unilaterally declared, so that any negotiation Abbas makes with Israel will already presume this.

    • Replies: @Yevardian
  5. Dmitry says:
    @fnn

    It’s not described directly on the card anymore (as in Russia, you don’t have it on the passport since the 1990s).

    There’s debate about whether nationality is determined from the numbers on the card.

    In the past, they also used calendar (Hebrew or Gregorian) to determine nationality.

    Here comparing the new cards, with the old ones.

  6. Dmitry says:
    @German_reader

    In Israel, about 100 women a year convert to Islam, in order to marry Arab partners.

    The interfaith thing is going in the wrong direction for Israel (Israel would want the Arabs to convert to Judaism, but it only goes in the other direction for them in Israel).

    (Mass conversion of Arabs to Judaism would solve a lot of their problems).

    If Israel banned conversion to Islam, they would be successful (but this would not happen there with their current attitude and culture – the elite attitude is more like Putin’s multireligious toleration).

    There’s also the case of the guy from Belarus who converted to Islam, and joined ISIS.

    https://www.timesofisrael.com/jewish-convert-to-islam-jailed-over-plan-to-join-is/

  7. Anonymous[276] • Disclaimer says:

    Russians constitute 81% of the Russian population, or 83% including Belorussians and Ukrainians, but the slogan “Russia for Russians” is considered to be extremist by the government and the (((liberal intelligentsia))) of Kats, Shats, and Albats (who all seems to be rather silent on the new Israeli laws; one ever so wonders why).

    Does this have anything to do with Russian Russia i.e. European Russia being bounded by the Urals in the east and the Caucasus to the south? The Russian state controls a much larger territory that goes beyond the Urals, and Russians don’t pretend or believe that Russians originated from beyond European Russia. Whereas Jews do seem to believe or pretend that Jews today originated in Israeli territory.

    • Replies: @melanf
  8. Anon[108] • Disclaimer says:

    It would be extremely difficult for Americans to do the “Museum of Holocaust” thing. I mean, they are trying to pull such crap in Boston, where tax evasion is depicted as “fight for freedom”, but even that joke of a war kept busy only a handful of people, even at its peak. And past that, they have been doing all the killing, or at least oil the wheels for others to do it. USS Maine, Pearl Harbor, 9/11 – only jokes with limited impact, essentially encouraged by US leaders in order to feed their insatiable thirst for war.

  9. utu says:

    Museums of the Russian Genocide and Slavery. There would be no meaning to Slavery w/o Slavs. Afro-Americans you can eat your heart out.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  10. Yevardian says:
    @Dmitry

    Liberals a barely more popular in Israel than in Russia, are they not?
    People like Ilan Pappe and Amira Hass aren’t exactly representative. Even some of the harsher critics of Israeli policy like Benny Morris, Efraim Karsh or the late Israel Shahak were hardly bleeding hearts either.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  11. Dmitry says:
    @utu

    It would be better “Museum of Russian history, language and culture” – and just including about historical mistreatment as one aspect of the presentation. It would be more important to introduce about language and culture.

    Also when you are abroad, you don’t want to be seen (your nationality) as a victim, but as a cultured people with an important language.

    Focusing on being a victim, creates negative image of yourself (according to Just World Hypothesis).

    If I was funding this (if I was an oligarch), I would focus on language teaching, and positive high cultural contributions, and even history only as a way for people to access the positive cultural aspects.

    However, Russia is a huge country – 146 million people. What foreigners think is less important – it’s more important what citizens of Russia think. And building more museums in Russia, also attracts tourism, whereas building them abroad – attracts tourism abroad.

    If we look at Japan. They have developed a very positive image even abroad in recent years, simply through the success of their popular culture. And to a lesser extent, Korea is doing this as well.

    Japan does not build museums of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Although Japan is highly patriotic and local people understand their historical mistreatment during the Second World War (and they have museums in Hiroshima and Nagasaki about the American bombing). They make positive animes and computer games, and all the youth around the world (including in America) are falling in love with these.

    • Replies: @utu
  12. Dmitry says:
    @Yevardian

    I talk every week with friends in Israel. Most people are very right-wing, and they are a kind of clever version of rednecks and peasants (cultural knowledge in Israel is really limited with normal people there).

    The elites though, and particular in the media and legal areas (the latter controls the Supreme Court), are very liberal and virtue-signalling.

    If this Supreme Court override law is ever passed, then it will change a lot, and become a center-right acting country (as their laws will pass against illegal immigrants and NGOs, etc).

    The situation in the media is a little better (more balanced – with both liberal and conservative views) than Western Europe.

    I’m trying to learn Hebrew this year, and I watch their new state television (Kan – “here”). They have a mix of views – maybe 70% liberal, and 30% are right-wing.

    Their main one is a liberal women presenter (name is written like this לוסי איוב) who is half Arab and half Jewish. But her views are more like neoliberal than like “Obama liberal”. She’s very feminist and wants interfaith marriage between Arabs and Jews. At the same time, she is supporting civic liberties (legalizing drugs and prostitution), and her views patriotic ones.

  13. utu says:
    @Dmitry

    I was alluding to etymological link between slave and Slav. Ae we know Jews and Blacks find the fact of being once a victim very empowering and useful in their struggle with their victimizers. Slavic people on the other hand are ashamed of the fact that once they provided many slaves. For instance ALEXEY TIMOFEYCHEV writes:

    https://www.rbth.com/arts/history/2017/07/17/myths-of-russian-history-does-the-word-slavs-derive-from-the-word-slave_804967
    While western researchers carelessly tend to equate the word “Slavs” and “slaves,“ modern Russian linguistic scholars and historians are finding new information and historical facts that challenge such long-held claims.

    Historians, such as the famous Soviet and Russian researcher Igor Froyanov, emphasized that many slaves were taken by the Slavs. As shown in sources mentioned by the historian, the slaves of this era in this part of the world were mainly Greek.

    Greek writers depicted the Slavs as those “who cannot be forced into slavery or subjugated in their own country.” Hence, it might be hard to imagine how the word “Slav” originated from “slaves.”

    What do we see here? (1) a hang-up and ego – we were rather slave owners not slaves, we couldn’t possibly be slaves and (2) lack of imagination that in the current world having a history of being slaves has a tangible market value. For instance you can tell all Africans to bug off with their whining about slavery because you yourself were slaves once and you can also make some clams with respect to Jews who dominated slavery business in medieval Europe. See Radhanite: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radhanite

    Furthermore playing the slavery card should be used in making claims to Crimea which in pre-Russia time was a center of slavers getting Slavic and Balto-Slavic and Finnish slaves and it was Russia that destroyed it by bringing Christianity and civilization to Crimea. You could get some PR mileage form it.

    But Russian propaganda is stupid and unimaginative as exemplified by this ALEXEY TIMOFEYCHEV guy: we were big and strong and we wuz kangz. This stupid pride so unimaginably stupid that it even does not qualify to be a mortal sin.

  14. Talha says:

    Criminalize interfaith marriages

    Finally you guys are catching on.

    Question though; will it be across the board, like Orthodox can’t marry atheists, Buddhists can’t marry Jews, (also, does Protestant + Orthodox count?), etc. Or is this really just to keep your women from marrying Muslims, but just couched in more universal terms?

    I mean I don’t take any offense since we try to legally keep non-Muslim men away from our women, but just curious…

    Peace.

    • Replies: @The Big Red Scary
    , @A.A.
  15. @Talha

    “Protestant + Orthodox count”

    No. To get married in the Orthodox Church, you have to be Orthodox. In Russia, most people get married at the ЗАГС (like justice of the peace), and there I guess you can marry any human of the opposite sex who is not your sibling or cousin. Nominally Orthodox people (baptized and wears a cross, comes briefly to church a few times a year) usually go to the ЗАГС, though they could be persuaded to get married in church, probably. But I don’t think the percentage of nominally Orthodox people is sufficient to justify abolishing the ЗАГС.

    Lately, I’ve been thinking about the dynamics of divorce in society. Back in the day, if my neighbors got divorced, I would probably have cold relations with them afterward. Nowadays, I have many Russian friends who have happy, stable second marriages. Usually they were impulsive in their youth, had kids young with someone unsuitable who ran off, and have made better decisions the second time around. So it seems to me that to get from where we are to where we want to be, we need much stronger social disapprobation of divorce, while still cutting some slack to people who have a chance to start over. We also need strong disapprobation of adultery and wife-beating. Perhaps we should bring tar and feather. Does anyone know what was the old Russian analogue?

    We also need to promote a more reasonable, less fairytaleish ideal of marriage, so that people are more likely to get it right the first time. In particular, we need more open discussion about how to make good choices of a mate, not just within families, but as communities. Making a good choice includes looking not just at apparent personal traits of the potential mate, but also at those of siblings, parents, and grandparents. (Of course, you need to apply some kind of discount the further you move along the family tree, but I haven’t thought through a formula. Just proportional to the degree of genetic similarity?)

    I take a quite gentle touch with influencing the decisions of children, and I haven’t had to deal with such momentous decisions yet, but I am thinking about it for the future. My four criteria for a good mate are that they be Orthodox, intelligent, kind, and healthy. (I once met an Igbo satisfying these criteria, so if my daughter were to marry one like him, I could really get y’all riled up.)

    Has anyone else had experience talking to their children about marriage?

    • Replies: @Talha
    , @melanf
  16. @utu

    I was alluding to etymological link between slave and Slav.

    The etymology is widely accepted, but suspect from a scientific linguistic point of view. Hard to explain how ‘slovene’ became ‘sclavos’, too many irregular sound changes.

    More info here: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/sclavus#Latin

  17. melanf says:
    @Anonymous

    Does this have anything to do with Russian Russia i.e. European Russia being bounded by the Urals in the east and the Caucasus to the south?

    Another reason – the Tatars, Yakuts, etc. have a good relationship with Russians. But Jews and Arabs have such hatred that there is nothing to lose. If (hypothetically) Jews and Arabs treated each other as Russians and Tatars, the official slogans of Israel would be different.

    • Replies: @Talha
  18. Talha says:
    @The Big Red Scary

    To get married in the Orthodox Church, you have to be Orthodox.

    I remember reading that when I looked it up a while back. It seems that certain churches make exceptions for Roman Catholics, but are pretty hostile to intermarriage with generic Christians.

    we need much stronger social disapprobation of divorce, while still cutting some slack to people who have a chance to start over. We also need strong disapprobation of adultery and wife-beating…We also need to promote a more reasonable, less fairytaleish ideal of marriage, so that people are more likely to get it right the first time.

    You are batting them out the park. This is great advice. In essence, you are asking for a return to a healthy mode of patriarchy where the father and family are involved in the decision process for marriage.

    I once met an Igbo satisfying these criteria

    It seems very natural for people to prefer that one’s kids marry within people of their cultural background due to compatibility reasons, but if all you find are foolish, violent Russians then it would be a failure on your part as a father to hand your daughter over to one of them. Maybe look for a Ukrainian (you know to rile up people ;) ).

    Has anyone else had experience talking to their children about marriage?

    I’ve talked to my daughter about expectations for a while now – it’s nice to be on the same page on the main issues. One thing I realize though are girls seem to be unrealistic and naive about a lot of things. They definitely need a coach to help guide them away from troublesome guys. My boys are excited about getting a brother-in-law and want a say in the matter (funny guys).

    I’ve talked to my boys a little about it (they are younger) – plenty of young girls in our local community to pick from. Though I have my eye on two daughters from the same family that I know from Southern California (their father and I went to UCLA together) for my boys. Once my boys get older and start work, I’m going to make a call to their father to see if their family is interested. If not, there are other families I have arranged in my mind in order of priority. This is also assuming they don’t meet some good girl in university or whatever. Of course, my niece is also available, but we aren’t keen on the cousin thing.

    It’s always good to have early talks with your kids about this stuff – one of the best things you can do for your kids as a father is to help them find a good spouse.

    Peace.

  19. Talha says:
    @melanf

    If (hypothetically) Jews and Arabs treated each other as Russians and Tatars

    The level of animosity is anomalous – Jewish and Arab ethno-nationalism are fairly recently imported ideologies in the ME. It was not like this about a century ago; there were many sizable indigenous Jewish communities across the Muslim world.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @Duke of Qin
  20. dfordoom says: • Website
    @Talha

    In essence, you are asking for a return to a healthy mode of patriarchy where the father and family are involved in the decision process for marriage.

    That’s certainly what is needed.

    That was the thing about patriarchy. It worked. Men benefited from it, and women benefited from it. And society benefited from it. When did we in the West decide that everything that worked well should be scrapped?

    • Replies: @Talha
    , @Rosie
  21. melanf says:
    @The Big Red Scary

    To get married in the Orthodox Church, you have to be Orthodox.

    Since the 18th century it is possible to marry any non-Orthodox Christian

    • Replies: @The Big Red Scary
  22. A.A. says:
    @Talha

    >Or is this really just to keep your women from marrying Muslims, but just couched in more universal terms?

    Preventing Russian women from marrying Tatars and Bashkirs would be like shooting yourself in the foot. Children of these unions tend to choose the ethnic identity of their Russian mothers and religion follows ethnicity in such cases. If anything, this is a net profit for Orthodox Christians. What’s not to like?

    • Replies: @Felix Keverich
    , @Talha
  23. @utu

    Regarding the slave trade in Slavs, there was a very interesting, albeit politically incorrect, book on this (in French) a few years ago that more or less disappeared down the memory hole: La traite des Slaves du VIIIe au XVIIIe siècle by Alexandre Skirda, a French historian of Russian/Ukrainian origin.

    From a review:

    Notre auteur distingue nettement deux traites des Slaves : la traite occidentale, qui s’exerça en Europe centrale, et la traite orientale, qui sévit de la Pologne à l’Oural. La première ne dura que 300 ans, du VIIIe au XIe siècle ; la seconde, qui débuta également au VIIIe siècle, dura quelque mille ans. Elles impliquèrent l’une et l’autre des peuples variés, qu’il s’agisse des victimes, les divers locuteurs de langues slaves répandus de la Bohême à l’Ukraine, de la Pologne aux Balkans, ou qu’il s’agisse, côté prédateurs, de nomades turco-mongols venus des steppes de l’Asie centrale, les Polovtses, les Khazars et surtout les Tatars, auxquels il faut ajouter les Francs et les Juifs rhadhânites (3) des Etats carolingiens, les Varègues de Scandinavie, les Génois et les Vénitiens, enfin les Turcs ottomans, lesquels prirent part à ce crime contre l’humanité à diverses époques historiques . . .

    Le bilan humain de cette traite millénaire est fort difficile à quantifier, faute de documents, surtout pour les périodes lointaines. Entre le VIIIe et le XIIe siècle, Mr Skirda estime le nombre de victimes à plusieurs centaines de milliers d’êtres humains, auxquels il faut ajouter un million de prisonniers réduits à la servitude, s’ajoutant au million de tués du fait de la conquête mongole. L’Encyclopédie ukrainienne de 2002 a évalué à 2 M / 2,5 M le nombre d’esclaves prélevés par les Tatars sur l’Ukraine, la Biélorussie et la Moscovie entre 1482 et 1760, chiffre considérable si l’on tient compte de ce que la population de ces régions entre ces dates peut être estimée à 5 ou 6 M d’habitants.

    https://fr.novopress.info/140411/la-traite-des-slaves-lesclavage-des-blancs-du-viiie-au-xviiie-siecle-dalexandre-skirda/

    Translation of the parts in bold:

    The author clearly distinguishes between two Slav(e) trades: the Western trade in Central Europe, and the Eastern trade which ravaged the area from Poland to the Urals. The first lasted only 300 years, from the 8th to the 11th centuries; the second, which also began in the 8th century, lasted for a thousand years.

    The 2002 Ukrainian Encyclopedia estimates at 2- 2.5 million the number of slaves taken by the Tatars in Ukraine, Belorussia and Moscovy between 1482 and 1760, a [very] considerable number taking into account that the population of these regions between these dates can be estimated at 5 or 6 million inhabitants.

    • Replies: @utu
  24. @A.A.

    Miscegenation with racially inferior people? While Tatars are not the same as niggers, and the offspring is able to assimilate, this still degrades the gene pool. There are better ways to control the Muslim population. I would send to Finland as refugees.

    • Replies: @Jaakko Raipala
  25. Talha says:
    @A.A.

    Totally makes sense from the Orthodox perspective. The situation you outline, regarding progeny, also explains why the ulema are very, very adamant about it being prohibitively disliked for Muslim men to marry Jewish or Christian women (though it is generally permissible) outside the lands of Islam.

    Peace.

  26. Talha says:
    @dfordoom

    It worked.

    Indeed – and frankly, men take to it naturally, like fish to water. I saw this in my own experience.

    Since my wife was a convert, her parents didn’t really expect to be involved in whatever she was up to as far as finding a mate; apparently, the extent of their advice to her before she left for university was simply “use protection”. Her older sister had hooked up with a man she met in university – a marriage that eventually ended up in disaster.

    So my wife’s father was not expecting to be meeting with me as basically the *first* step in the process. But, I saw that once it was clear that he was going to be allowed the space to be able to function as a father, that his opinion was going to seriously be taken into consideration and that his daughter was down with it – he asked me all the right questions to make sure his daughter wasn’t getting herself into a mess. Now that I think back on it, I’m a bit amazed at how her mother naturally also let the father take the reigns.

    It’s a very natural and innate thing, I think you actually have to have it programmed out of you.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @iffen
    , @Rosie
  27. @Felix Keverich

    I would love to fill our refugee quota with Tatars instead of Africans and Arabs.

    Especially if it’s Volga Tatars. Crimean Tatars often look suspiciously brown and they might have Greek admixture but the others seem to look like good Eastern Europeans and Mongoloids.

    • LOL: Felix Keverich
    • Replies: @The Big Red Scary
  28. utu says:
    @for-the-record

    albeit politically incorrect

    Why is it incorrect? Because of ethnic identity of slavers? Jews?

    Blonde cargoes: Finnish children in the slave markets of medieval Crimea

    https://mikedashhistory.com/2015/01/15/blonde-cargoes-finnish-children-in-the-slave-markets-of-medieval-crimea/

    SLAVE TRADE IN THE EARLY MODERN CRIMEA FROM THE PERSPECTIVE OF CHRISTIAN,MUSLIM, AND JEWISH SOURCES, MIKHAIL KIZILOV

    http://www.academia.edu/2971600/Slave_Trade_in_the_Early_Modern_Crimea_From_the_Perspective_of_Christian_Muslim_and_Jewish_Sources

    Slaves, Money Lenders, and Prisoner Guards: The Jews and the Trade in Slaves and Captives in the Crimean Khanate, Mikhail Kizilov

    https://books.google.com/books/about/Slaves_Money_Lenders_and_Prisoner_Guards.html?id=4r6vnQEACAAJ

    Crimean–Nogai raids into East Slavic lands

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean–Nogai_raids_into_East_Slavic_lands

    My point was that Russia’s PR narrative should play the importance of Russia conquering Crimea in 18 century because of it being the center of international slavery run by Muslim and Jewish gangs. Tartars were just subcontracted to perform the raids and bring the slaves though sometimes they had insiders in Russia and Poland who helped them find their victims. Russia should play the role as being the civilizing force.

    • Replies: @for-the-record
    , @melanf
  29. @utu

    Why is it incorrect? Because of ethnic identity of slavers? Jews?

    Also, and perhaps of more importance in multicultural France, the role of Islam. As summarized in the same review:

    Les responsabilités de l’islam, « civilisation esclavagiste par excellence » (F. Braudel)

    My point was that Russia’s PR narrative should play the importance of Russia conquering Crimea in 18 century because of it being the center of international slavery run by Muslim and Jewish gangs . . . Russia should play the role as being the civilizing force.

    AbsoIutely, I agree with you, but that doesn’t change the fact that in this day and age it is “politically incorrect”.

  30. A good example of how US domestic politics works: 3 days ago the “rising Democratic star” Ocasio-Cortez described Israel as an occupation force.

    Within 24 hours none other than Joe Lieberman pens an op-ed urging Democratic voters in her district to vote third party in the general election. I didn’t even realise this Lieberman dude was still alive, but somehow his opinion is top news:

    https://www.google.com/search?q=lieberman+vs+Ocasio-Cortez

  31. melanf says:
    @utu

    My point was that Russia’s PR narrative should play the importance of Russia conquering Crimea in 18 century because of it being the center of international slavery run by Muslim and Jewish gangs.

    So this is really a historical narrative in Russia. The specific role of the Crimean khanate is well remembered in Russia.

  32. Dmitry says:
    @utu

    Internally, it is useful to be a victim (nationalities which are victims, or perceive themself as victims, are becoming much more patriotic than those which don’t).

    But externally (and Karlin is talking about museums for foreigners I think), it is not useful to be a victim. This is because of Just World Hypothesis (if something bad happens to you, people will think you must be responsible in some way).

    People always blame those who are mistreated, as being responsible for mistreatments.

    With foreigners, it should be promotion of Russian language, literature and music, not of being a victim (it’s not cool when you are abroad, that people think your nationality is a victim).

    In Israel, they focus on being a victim internally. They have school trips, partly funded from the federal budget, where they send children to death camps (concentration camps) of Poland, and scare the children a lot and make them cry, even become traumatized. Most of the children are not descendants of European Jews, so the trips are building patriotism and inter-ethnic solidarity amongst different Jewish groups in Israel (which have racial tensions between them historically).

    In Russia, there is also a lot of focus now in school, on tragic events of the past, and of overcoming them. And the Immortal Regiment thing is growing every year.

    But externally this is not a good idea. The external policy should aim simply viewed to be a normal, increasingly developed European country, which is the reality, regardless of not having the untragic history of England, America, or Sweden.

    Focus of building museums (if they are created abroad), should be promotion of Russian language, and cultural contributions.

    This is also following a “win-win” model, as it helps foreigners, instead of annoying them.

    Currently, Russia Today (with $500 million a year from the budget), is simply annoying Westerners, creating negative attitudes. The same budget funded for museums of culture, or of many centers the Russian language, would help Westerners and improve the diplomatic atmosphere.

    • Agree: melanf
    • Disagree: utu, reiner Tor
  33. Mitleser says:

    In Russia, there is also a lot of focus now in school, on tragic events of the past, and of overcoming them. And the Immortal Regiment thing is growing every year.

    But externally this is not a good idea.

    ???

  34. @Talha

    marry within people of their cultural background due to compatibility reasons,

    I of course agree, and recognize that some cultures are more compatible than others. Besides, if my daughter actually married an Igbo, POTUS Thorfinnsson would revoke her US citizenship. :)

    if all you find are foolish, violent Russians

    No, of course not. But it seems to me that Russian men follow a fat-tail distribution.

    Maybe look for a Ukrainian

    Actually, my daughter is one half khokhlyushka to begin with!

    return to a healthy mode of patriarchy where the father and family are involved in the decision process for marriage.

    To make it work, it takes more than a family, but a whole community with strong social norms. As I said above, you also need ways to make the patriarch stay in line. I”m really curious how Russians handled that before the revolution. Tar and feather was an English peasant practice.

    • Replies: @Talha
    , @Toronto Russian
  35. @Jaakko Raipala

    Yeah, the Russian state should be helping Volga Tatars emigrate to Europe. They’ll be a natural Russia-friendly ruling class once Europe is majority Muslim.

    • LOL: Talha
  36. @melanf

    I stand corrected.

    Having done some more reading, it seems that at least some Patriarchates allow someone whose had a Trinitarian baptism to marry an Orthodox person in the Orthodox Church, so long as they agree to raise the children as Orthodox. And there is one famous example of such a marriage, with a later conversion: Grand Duchess Elizabeth Feodorovna.

    However, even in the decadent West, I don’t know a single priest who would perform such a marriage without explicit permission from the Bishop, and I’ve personally only seen examples of conversions followed by marriages.

  37. @Dmitry

    But externally (and Karlin is talking about museums for foreigners I think), it is not useful to be a victim.

    It’s much worse to be seen as a nation of perpetrators (and to accept that judgement), it leads to endless ritual self-denunciations and opens you up to all manner of blackmail and external aggression which you can’t resist because you’ve unilaterally disarmed yourself. AK’s views are much too extreme and one-sided imo, but he isn’t wrong that the historical suffering of Russians is in some ways a useful resource.

  38. Talha says:
    @The Big Red Scary

    POTUS Thorfinnsson would revoke her US citizenship.

    He doesn’t legally have that power. He’d have to settle for droning her and her kids.

    To make it work, it takes more than a family, but a whole community with strong social norms.

    Totally agree.

    you also need ways to make the patriarch stay in line

    Absolutely. The vast majority of fathers and daughters (that already have a healthy relationship) will see eye to eye or at least work on producing a healthy compromise on the subject of marriage.

    But there are always exceptions to the rule and the legal system needs to be able to provide protection against a father abusing his authority without also becoming too meddlesome in the affairs and dynamics of a family.

    Good luck with your daughter, I hope she finds a very suitable spouse that will love and cherish her and her children.

    Peace.

  39. @Talha

    Good luck with your daughter, I hope she finds a very suitable spouse that will love and cherish her and her children.

    Thank you. I hope the same for yours. With my daughter, it is still early to be talking to her about it much, but not too early to be thinking about it.

  40. @Talha

    He doesn’t legally have that power.

    You have to make the law first and apply it afterwards. She wasn’t born in the US, so it would be really easy to make a law that would get her on a technicality, or at least force her to make hard choices.

    He’d have to settle for droning her and her kids.

    He has the *power* but not, arguably, the legal *authority*. Has SCOTUS ruled on extra-judicial, extra-territorial executions of US citizens?

    • Replies: @for-the-record
  41. @The Big Red Scary

    As I said above, you also need ways to make the patriarch stay in line. I”m really curious how Russians handled that before the revolution.

    In no way really. It was a usual thing that a patriarch sexually abused the wives of his sons and no one did anything about it, such was his power and the custom.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snokhachestvo

    Father-in-law, by Vladimir Makovskiy

  42. Dave Pinsen says: • Website
    @German_reader

    I thought the issue wasn’t interfaith marriages per se, but marriages with Palestinians, after a Palestinian who married an Israeli used his access to Israel to commit a terrorist attack. IIRC.

    • Replies: @German_reader
  43. @Dave Pinsen

    You’re right, apparently Palestinians from the occupied territories who marry an Israeli are barred from acquiring Israeli citizenship and living in Israel:

    https://www.tabletmag.com/scroll/191711/knesset-extends-law-forbidding-palestinians-married-to-israelis-from-living-in-jewish-state

    I wouldn’t call that criminalizing interfaith marriages though.

  44. iffen says:
    @Talha

    It’s a very natural and innate thing

    Don’t sell yourself short, Talha, it was all dependent on your charm.

    • Replies: @Talha
  45. @Dmitry

    This is because of Just World Hypothesis (if something bad happens to you, people will think you must be responsible in some way).

    In some old Japanese texts there is the idea that the virtue of the Japanese race has protected the Japanese people – most strikingly in the divine winds which crushed the Mongol invasion fleet twice and preserved Japanese independence, but also existing as a undertone in other events.

    • Replies: @AaronB
    , @reiner Tor
  46. Talha says:
    @iffen

    LOL! Well, I can say I have a great relationship with my in-laws (alhamdulillah), who I just called to say farewell to a couple of days ago; they’re off to their annual 6-weeks vacation in Sweden. Very kick-back people, very easy to get along with. I tend not to discuss too much politics with them though, they are fairly liberal (even with now two hijab-wearing daughters).

    I’ll ask them about the immigration issues and what not when they return and report back.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
  47. @Talha

    I’ll ask them about the immigration issues and what not when they return and report back.

    What region are they visiting? Some regions are relatively fine, others are a disaster.

    • Replies: @Talha
  48. Talha says:
    @Hyperborean

    They own a little flat near a beautiful lake in a town called Ulricehamn. It’s about an hour due East of Gottenburg. It was a quaint little town when I visited back in early 2000′s – no idea if it has immigration or what now. It might even have immigrants, but just enough of them to add a bit of flavor to the town without the headaches. I don’t know, I’ll ask them this time around.

    Peace.

  49. Rosie says:
    @dfordoom

    That was the thing about patriarchy. It worked. Men benefited from it, and women benefited from it. And society benefited from it. When did we in the West decide that everything that worked well should be scrapped?

    The question is not whether it worked. Obviously, it caused a great deal of misery, even if it did “work” in some sense. The question is whether or not it is necessary. As long as Amish girls keep marrying young men of their own choosing and having families large enough to double the population every twenty years, there is no good reason to consider nor broach the idea of forcing women into marriages they do not want. Remember, the fact that something past was better than what replaced it doesn’t mean a third way wouldn’t be better still.

    BTW I think it’s great that Israel is opening up some space for ethnonationalism in polite society.

    • Replies: @Talha
    , @The Big Red Scary
  50. @The Big Red Scary

    She wasn’t born in the US, so it would be really easy to make a law that would get her on a technicality

    If she marries an “alien”, her children won’t have US citizenship unless she has lived in the US for at least 5 years (and at least 2 years after age 14).

    • Replies: @The Big Red Scary
  51. Rosie says:
    @Talha

    Now that I think back on it, I’m a bit amazed at how her mother naturally also let the father take the reigns.

    That was just for show. ;)

    • LOL: Talha
    • Replies: @Talha
  52. AaronB says:
    @Hyperborean

    Its also the notion of karma.

    And the idea underlying the historical bits of the Old Testament.

    The only caveat is, what is truly misfortune.

  53. Talha says:
    @Rosie

    Smart women let their men play the role, but they know how to make sure they are heard as well.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @The Big Red Scary
  54. Talha says:
    @Rosie

    The term I used that kickstarted this subtopic was “healthy mode of patriarchy”. The assumption is that it needs to be devoid of abuse of power and extremes that would naturally cause another revolt against it. It is an acknowledgment that not every manifestation of patriarchy was positive, just like marriage can be an abused institution but it’s probably the best shot we have.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @Rosie
  55. Before you “alt right” tards complain about Israel being an Ethno State for Jews well. It kinda of is but if you convert to Judaism even those fake “reform” and “conservative” denomination you are considered a Jew under Israeli law and are covered under the right of return law. Yes that is hardcore ethno nationalism there. I know how about two million alt righters “convert” to Judaism then move to Israel take over the government and turn it into a white ethno state?

    • Troll: German_reader
  56. @for-the-record

    Yes, I’m familiar with the rules. Had to show my report card from kindergarten as part of the ritual of acquiring US citizenship for her. She was born stateless, so we had to do something. Anyway, I don’t really care whether my grandchildren are US citizens.

  57. @Talha

    In Chinatown in some large western city where I once lived, I remarked to a Chinese friend that I had often noticed elderly couples out for a walk with the man some steps ahead and the woman following behind him. The Chinese friend pointed out that although he may walk ahead, she is constantly critiquing every step he makes.

    • LOL: Talha
  58. @Rosie

    there is no good reason to consider nor broach the idea of forcing women into marriages they do not want.

    I don’t know what other people had in mind, but it was I who broached the topic– not of forcing your children into marriages that they don’t want, but rather of establishing social norms that would help your children make good choices. Ultimately, I try to cultivate a good relationship with my children, so that they can talk to me about their decisions, and so that I can trust that they will make mostly good ones.

    As for matriarchy and patriarchy, men and women have their comparative advantages. I defer to my wife on many matters, either because she’s right where I am wrong, or because I don’t feel it’s worth conflict. There are, however, some issues on which I stand my ground and put up a respectful fight, and though my wife can be quite upset about it in the moment, she has always come around in the end, which I take as a sign that I am choosing my battles well.

    • Replies: @Rosie
  59. Rosie says:
    @Talha

    I hear you. Forgive ny sloppy reading. I’ve been busy battling heathens over on Reed’s thread.

    • Replies: @The Big Red Scary
    , @Talha
  60. Rosie says:
    @The Big Red Scary

    There are, however, some issues on which I stand my ground and put up a respectful fight, and though my wife can be quite upset about it in the moment, she has always come around in the end, which I take as a sign that I am choosing my battles well.

    Yes, indeed. That has also been my experience. I haven’t always come to agree with my husband, but at a minimum, I have always understood him, which is good enough.

  61. @Dmitry

    Jews play victims externally, too.

    It’s interesting that you never even heard of all visiting dignitaries being led to Yad Vashem as a ritual. I take it as evidence that you’ve never been to Israel. :-)

    Jews also ceaselessly lobby for ever more Holocaust Museums and memorials everywhere.

  62. @Hyperborean

    But how much truth is there to this Just World Hypothesis? I’ve only seen it in explanations for anti-Semitism, but then the Jewish practice of advertising their persecution makes little sense.

    I think most people usually identify with the victims.

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
    , @iffen
    , @Dmitry
  63. @reiner Tor

    I am not sure. I think it helps much more to be considered a victim nowadays than it did in the past.

    But one can see with anti-Jewish websites and comments on the internet that listing the many expulsions Jews went through resonates a great deal with the readers, even without listing why they were expelled.

    It is interesting that despite the plethora of lost battles, last stands and national defeats, other people don’t really care about insignificant nationalities’ suffering.

    I think for people to empathise with their suffering they must be considered important in some way.

    While real or alleged mistreatment of Jews is assumed to be relevant even to populations that have very little interaction or knowledge of Jews, there is not the same focus on say, Gypsies.

    • Replies: @Jaakko Raipala
  64. iffen says:
    @reiner Tor

    I think most people usually identify with the victims.

    If this is true then the crucial decision is deciding who is a victim.

  65. @Rosie

    Hi Rosie.

    After this comment of yours, I spent some of my morning reading Fred Reed’s piece, and some of the comments. False dichotomies fly thick and fast, both above and below the fold. Your comments were reasonable, but I would encourage you to always keep separate in your mind the question of the origin of life and the question of the history of life after its origination.

    Having grown up “evangelical” in the US, and having converted as an adult to Orthodoxy, the most slowly evolving form of Christianity, I was pre-disposed to anti-Darwinian skepticism. But around the time my daughter was born, I became very interested in biology and the history of life and made a good faith effort to look at the evidence for the “origin of species”, which I now find to be very persuasive. I would also note that my arrival at a new appreciation for the history of life coincided with one of the more fruitful periods in my faith.

    If you are interested in a fairly up-to-date account of evolutionary theory, which takes into account gene expression and embryonic development, written not by your typical angry atheist but by someone empathetic to faith, I recommend Endless Forms Most Beautiful by Sean Carroll.

    • Replies: @Rosie
    , @Mr. Hack
  66. Rosie says:
    @The Big Red Scary

    Why thank you for that recommendation. I may well take a look at it. I very much agree with you that the question of the origin of life is different from the question of the history of life. I don’t particularly disagree with the idea of evolution by natural selection. The problem is that something needs to exist before it can be selected for.

    • Replies: @for-the-record
  67. @Rosie

    The problem is that something needs to exist before it can be selected for.

    For what it’s worth (not much I imagine) the “theory of evolution” can be divided into 3 distinct elements:

    (1) origin of life (out of primordial soup), which for some miraculous, unexplained reason happened exactly 1 time

    (2) arrival of the fittest (i.e., how favorable mutations produce wonderful changes and entirely new species)

    (3) survival of the fittest (natural selection, e.g., white moths become black during the industrial revolution)

    For anyone with a strong feel for mathematics, the last (which most people seem to identify with “evolution”) is entirely trivial; the first two, on the other hand, are highly problematic.

    Pasteur, after all, is heralded for having refuted the “traditional” theory of spontaneous generation, but it seems that in the primordial soup normal rules don’t apply.

    • Agree: utu, Talha
  68. @Hyperborean

    Our politicians and media “empathize” with Jewish suffering because they’re paid to do so. If the Germans had won the war and successfully destroyed Jews as a wealthy class in Europe, we wouldn’t be hearing much about Jewish suffering and few people would “empathize” with it. Lots of leftist activists push for similar narratives with gypsies but it only succeeds when it can latch onto Holocaust industry which has actual money behind it.

    Victimhood narratives currently work for those groups that are either well represented among American elites or who are found useful by American elites for either purposes of domestic policy (eg purchasing the votes of blacks for the Democrats) or foreign policy (eg using Ukrainians against Russia). As long as there’s no powerful faction in US politics that wants to ally with Russia, Russian victim narratives will be ignored.

    Sometimes victimhood narratives work by historical accident, eg. Finland managed to lobby for all sorts of things from the USSR by using the personality cult of Lenin since he had written about how Russia is oppressing Finland with policy X and Finns must be given Y as a compensation for oppression. Lower level Soviet officials would be terrified of contradicting Lenin. But today Lenin’s narratives don’t have any effect on Russian officials so Finland has stopped repeating them…

  69. Mr. Hack says: • Website
    @The Big Red Scary

    I too have been following Fred Reed’s latest piece here, and was wondering whether you’re aware of a recent study that casts some serious aspersion on Darwin’s theory of evolution:

    In a massive genetic study, senior research associate at the Program for the Human Environment at Rockefeller University Mark Stoeckle and University of Basel geneticist David Thaler discovered that virtually 90 percent of all animals on Earth appeared at right around the same time.

    More specifically, they found out that 9 out of 10 animal species on the planet came to being at the same time as humans did some 100,000 to 200,000 years ago.

    If 90% of creatures all originated at roughly the same moment in history, there simply isn’t time for amphibians to slowly become reptiles, then birds, and then mammals. And notice the evidence demonstrates that these animals are coming into existence at the same time as man. None of this remotely fits the Darwinian model. Meaning, the assumptions upon which all of modern biology have been constructed are faulty. Down goes Darwin.

    https://www.themaven.net/theresurgent/contributors/so-apparently-darwin-was-wrong-really-really-wrong-6V-HdjsskUeoBJcvPxOTGg/

    • Replies: @The Big Red Scary
  70. @Mr. Hack

    I saw your comment over there, and did some reading about the study in question. Here is a pop-sci article with quotes from the authors themselves:

    https://phys.org/news/2018-05-gene-survey-reveals-facets-evolution.html

    If 90% of creatures all originated at roughly the same moment in history, there simply isn’t time for amphibians to slowly become reptiles, then birds, and then mammals.

    This misconstrues what the study says. The claim is not that %90 of species that *have ever lived* originated in the last 200,000 years, but that %90 of the species *living now* originated in the last 200,000 years. In fact, it is estimated that 99% of all species have gone extinct:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extinction

    The study is interesting and surprising, but does not lend itself to the conclusions that some people want to make.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  71. Dmitry says:
    @reiner Tor

    Compare how you react to an smelly homeless guy – and even if you are told that the reason is that he was victim of bad family, or physical violence or sexual abuse when he was younger (i.e. something outside his control).

    Now compare how you react to a happy uncle with a beautiful wife.

    Compare how we all react to Ukraine (I have nothing against Ukraine, but I’m talking about the general attitude everywhere to it – just anger and contempt), and how we react to Scandinavia by comparison.

    Yet Ukraine – in a wheel of fortune, is mainly a victim of historical events, and Scandinavia mainly benefitted by historical events.

    Now look at who people want to identify with. Do people read interviews or enjoy watching invited to talk shows George Clooney, or do they prefer to watch on talkshows – longrun victims of radiation effects of the Chernobyl accident (only from a sinister curiosity do they want to know about the latter).

    Do people like identifying with, and become interested in the life of Clooney, or of victims of Chernobyl accident?

    Likewise on a national level. What are the components of Rusophobia (which in the strongest example was believed by Nazis): that Russians are stupid biomass, passive victims, who were raped by Mongolian Golden Horde.

    This Western Rusophobia today: that it is a poor country, that everyone is alcoholic, that they are victims, and therefore resentful, and with attitudes symptomatic of bad fortune: anger and resentment.

    The additional component (which creates Russia derangement syndrome and cognitive dissonance), that Russia is also somehow powerful (and controlling world events).

    -

    The reason Jesus is a revolutionary teacher in the Ancient World, is because he wants people to identify with losers. This is a very counter-natural position, and you can also see these ideas earlier being tested in Plato’s dialogues. Interlocutors in Plato regard these kind of views (when tested by Socrates) as bizarre, which they are – as they are against our first instincts (which are “strong and fortunate = good”, and “weak and unfortunate = bad”).

  72. Mr. Hack says:
    @Dmitry

    Compare how we all react to Ukraine (I have nothing against Ukraine, but I’m talking about the general attitude everywhere to it – just anger and contempt), and how we react to Scandinavia by comparison.

    There you go again Dmitry, trying to substitute your own preconceived notions with those of ‘everywhere‘? Kind of like your recent gaffe about how well treated Ukrainians are in Russia. :-) You really should be more careful blurting things out that don’t quite measure up under any sort of scrutiny! At least in New York city, I think that Ukrainians are favorably looked upon as a vital part of the city’s mosaic.

    http://www.ukrainianmuseum.org/

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
    , @Dmitry
  73. Mr. Hack says:
    @Dmitry

    The reason Jesus is a revolutionary teacher in the Ancient World, is because he wants people to identify with losers.

    Another one of your profound oddities? Christ came into the world to try and save every person, including what in your eyes must be ‘losers’. He preached to the high and low, kings, generals, governors, tax collectors, physicians, priests, scholars, carpenters, fisherman, herders, traders, widows, children, prostitutes, thieves, everyone. His message was to proclaim the ‘Kingdom of Heaven’ to all that would listen to him. Apparently, you haven’t, yet?

  74. @Dmitry

    Compare how we all react to Ukraine

    Most people in the west don’t care about Ukraine either way and know very little about it.
    To the degree Ukraine is resented by people in the west it’s because of the somewhat questionable elements of Ukrainian nationalism, especially its association with WW2 collaboration with the Germans and antisemitism. This is somewhat counter-balanced however by the perception that Ukrainians have historically been oppressed by great Russian imperialism and suffered horrendously under communism…and that victim status does help Ukraine in the battle for international opinion.

    that Russians are stupid biomass, passive victims, who were raped by Mongolian Golden Horde.

    No, the anti-Russian narrative is that Russians are dangerous, expansionistic and a threat to Europe. Nothing to do with passive victimhood.
    Maybe it’s your enthusiasm for neoliberalism, but most people even in the post-Christian West don’t just despise others out of sheer contempt for the weak.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    , @for-the-record
  75. Mr. Hack says:
    @The Big Red Scary

    So, it appears that less than 1% of all species that have ever roamed the earth, are still visible to the modern eye. And these all came into being about 200,000 years ago, including man. Very interesting.

    • Replies: @The Big Red Scary
  76. @Mr. Hack

    In 2005 the Museum moved into a new, state-of-the-art facility in the heart of Manhattan’s vibrant East Village. The building was designed by Ukrainian American architect George Sawicki of Sawicki Tarella Architecture + Design in New York City. It was funded by scores of generous donations made principally by the Ukrainian American community.

    2017/18 Board of Trustees of The Ukrainian Museum

    Executive Board

    Chryzanta Hentisz, Esq., President, 2017‒
    Marianna Zajac, Vice-President
    Adrian Hewryk, Vice-President
    Zoriana Haftkowycz, Treasurer
    Lilya Kalat, Secretary
    Motria Kuzycz, Esq., Member-at-Large
    Alla Leshko, Member-at-Large
    Bohdan Sawycky, Member-at-Large
    Roma Shuhan, Member-at-Large

    Trustees

    Christine Andrushkiw
    Mark Bach
    Christine Bonacorsa
    Lida Chaplynsky
    Andrei Harasymiak, Esq.
    Sophia Hewryk
    Roman Hrab
    Iryna Kurowyckyj
    Maryanna Marsch-Hoydysh
    Rostislav Milanytch
    Olena Paslawsky
    Natalie Pawlenko
    Natalia Sonevytsky
    Olga Stawnychy
    Oksana Trytjak
    Olha Yarema-Wynar

    By Ukrainians, for Ukrainians.
    While it doesn’t prove that Ukrainians are looked down upon, I don’t think it proves the opposite either.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  77. Dmitry says:
    @Mr. Hack

    I am someone aware of instincts emerging from what now is called “Just World Hypothesis” – which is a fallacy, as fate and history does not create results that match in a simple way to moral concepts of justice. But this instinct exists – and you will find it in yourself, and you cannot expect people will be unaffected by first instincts .

    Ukraine Museum in America, as you can see, is wisely not “Museum of genocides and misfortunes” – but focusing on embroidery and positive things.

    -

    This is one of the main debates in the Ancient World. And the hypothesis of heaven and hell (as well as karma), is emerging as a way to try to maintain first instinct belief in Just World, when this latter was being falsified by observations of more thoughtful people of that era.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  78. Mr. Hack says:
    @Hyperborean

    So where’s your analytical proof that Ukrainians are generally looked down upon within the Western world? A few angry comments made by commentators at a few blogs? Nobody, certainly not me, has proclaimed that the Ukrainian nation is blemish free.

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
  79. @Mr. Hack

    still visible to the modern eye.

    Have you ever been in the Moscow Metro?

    http://www.paleometro.ru/

    Must be a communist plot.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  80. Mr. Hack says:
    @Dmitry

    Ukraine Museum in America, as you can see, is wisely not “Museum of genocides and misfortunes” – but focusing on embroidery and positive things.

    If that’s the kind of thing that you’re searching for, perhaps you should visit the History of National museum «Holodomor victims’ Memorial» in Kyiv

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  81. Mr. Hack says:
    @The Big Red Scary

    No I haven’t. Not quite sure what your point is?

    • Replies: @The Big Red Scary
  82. @Mr. Hack

    Maybe, I phrased it a bit poorly, I didn’t mean to state that Ukrainians are looked down in the West (except perhaps in a generic East European way).

    Rather that a museum run and funded mainly by Ukrainians doesn’t really match your claim that ”Ukrainians are favorably looked upon as a vital part of the city’s mosaic”.

    It seems more like they are treated with indifference. Although perhaps you know of monuments to Ukrainian culture that are funded by non-Slavs?

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  83. Dmitry says:
    @German_reader

    post-Christian West don’t just despise others out of sheer contempt for the weak.

    In a fragile way, which rebels against first instincts, and creates all kinds of sensations of cognitive dissonance.

    (And which the regime ruling your grandparents or great-grandparents generation had exploited a total reversal of a Christian attitude).

    -

    It’s one reason, watching interviews of Trump, gives a sensation of seeing a primitive of an earlier era (like a interlocutor in a dialogue of Plato).

    When questioned about his virtue, Trump will change to boast about his wealth and success (as if this is evidence of virtue).

    For educated people, this gives an impression of a very primitive person (but at the same time we understand the instincts he is trying to speak to).

    -

    In relation to the topic of the Karlin topic (Israel). It can be noted that Israelphilia in America (including among Jews of America), became mainly after their victory in the war of 1967.

    In an unspoken and politically incorrect way, this also occurred in the Soviet Union. Considering his generation, Putin reflects this view (his positive comments about Israel are usually related to, actually incorrect, view of their strength and success).

    • Replies: @German_reader
  84. Dmitry says:
    @Mr. Hack

    Because it is internally. If build in America, “Museum of tragedies and misfortunes”, this would not be a good diplomatic policy.

    -

    Jews only focusing on misfortune and persecution, externally, – in some instinctual way, it contributes to Judeophobia (through Just World Hypothesis psychology).

    But Israel taking its own Jewish children (partly funded from the federal budget), to visit German death camps in Poland – it contributes to inter-ethnic solidarity and patriotism (among the majority of Israeli Jews).

    -

    Implications for fighting Rusophobia are quite clear. The external policy should focus on positive achievements, while the internal policy can include historical misfortunes.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  85. @Dmitry

    And which the regime ruling your grandparents or great-grandparents generation had exploited a total reversal of a Christian attitude

    The Nazis always presented their violence as legitimate self-defense.

    In relation to the topic of the Karlin topic (Israel). It can be noted that Israelphilia in America (including among Jews of America), became mainly after their victory in the war of 1967.

    There may be an element of truth to that, but Israel’s international image was much better in the first few decades of its existence when it was seen as the underdog in its fight against the Arab states and as a refuge for Holocaust survivors. That perception began to dwindle with Israel’s occupation and settlement of yet more Palestinian land and its 1982 invasion of Lebanon which showed that it had now obviously gained the upper hand in its conflict with the Arabs. But Israel certainly would very much like the older view to become dominant once again; that’s why pro-Israel activists in Western countries try to keep memory of the Holocaust alive and make so much of the alleged Iranian threat.
    When you’re supposedly a weak victim, much is forgiven that would otherwise bring scrutiny and criticism.

    • Agree: utu
  86. Mr. Hack says:
    @Hyperborean

    Although perhaps you know of monuments to Ukrainian culture that are funded by non-Slavs?

    Your criteria is unrealistic. I think that you’d be hard pressed to find say any monuments dedicated to the memory of Beethoven that didn’t have significant support and input from the German community? Yet, Germany, which was responsible for so much destruction and mayhem during WWII, I wouldn’t say is particularly looked down upon in the West today. Neither is Ukraine.

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
  87. Mr. Hack says:

    I for one appreciated museums dedicated to both cultural legacies as well as ones that express more of a somber historical message. But if “Museum of tragedies and misfortunes” is your bag, skip the museum in New York and head straight to the one in Kyiv.

  88. @German_reader

    Most people in the west don’t care about Ukraine either way and know very little about it.

    In my generation people assumed that Ukrainians were identical to Russians (& Belorussians). After all, Ukraine was the “breadbasket of Russia“.

  89. Talha says:
    @Rosie

    Battling heathens eh? It’s funny, I’ve noticed that on the subject of evolution*, people can look at the exact same evidence and come to completely different conclusions. Not surprising though, if one comes from a believing or disbelieving background, often the evidence buttresses one’s own bias. Just depends on how one is willing to interpret it.

    Of course, if one believes, then there really is no need to stick to a strictly naturalistic interpretation for everything.

    Peace.

    *Which subsumes many different theoretical ideas (as for-the-record) pointed out; some that flow quite naturally and some that require a stretch of the imagination.

  90. @Mr. Hack

    My point is that the remains of many of these extinct species are indeed still visible to the modern eye. If you can’t go to the Moscow Metro, go to your nearest natural history museum.

    Most extant animal phyla appeared during the “Cambrian explosion”, about 500 million years old. Thus the 200,000 year period during which there have been anatomically modern humans accounts for .0004 percent of the history of what we would recognize as “animals”. To say the same thing backwards, .9996 percent of the history of complex life on this planet occurred before the appearance of modern humans. This is very hard, if not impossible, to truly appreciate.

    Nonetheless, it is of course very interesting that the study we are discussing found that the mitochondrial lines of 90% of extant species are very young, and one would of course like to understand why. I haven’t read the original study yet, and no doubt there are people around here who are better able to make sense of it than I am.

    • Agree: Mr. Hack
  91. Dmitry says:
    @Dmitry

    Implications for fighting Rusophobia are quite clear. The external policy should focus on positive achievements,

    The best example so far was the alphabet in the opening ceremony of Sochi 2014.*

    Role-model for future museums abroad would be following this concept – an integration of language teaching and immersion of visitors in culture.

    The museums itself could become a center of language teaching, offering free language classes, as well as public lectures inviting famous experts from different fields – art history, musicology and literature.

    In addition, with a concert hall for classical music, and which can also be used for visiting bands (to attract local hipsters).

    This will also attract a kind of segment of the population who are desirable (attractive middle and upper class people, and romantic young women) and not attracting undesirable segments.

    Currently there exist Russian cultural centers in a few places – but these (if you visit) are small houses, sometimes shabby, and too associated with the embassy, and only visited by citizens living abroad.

    Such museums could only be effective, if they are large and impressive buildings, reflecting some emotion of grandeur.

    Oligarchs could be asked to pay for this- (Abramovich has expended $3 billion on Chelsea, which same money could have build a few of these museums).

    Probably the best place to build them – London, Tokyo and Beijing (America would probably arrest all the museum staff).

    -

    *

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  92. Mitleser says:

    Probably the best place to build them – London, Tokyo and Beijing (America would probably arrest all the museum staff).

    Not in any European city?

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    , @German_reader
  93. Dmitry says:
    @Mitleser

    What city do you think?

    London is visited by almost everyone in Europe, and people go to visit museums which teach about world culture (British museum and Victoria & Albert museum is almost all non-British things inside).

    Also in London – a lot of Russian people who would love it, and want to work there, or support it.

    Maybe in Barcelona? (It has a lot of tourists, but not really such a museum city).

    And places like Rome would be too incompatible (you go to see Italian culture there).

    Berlin would not be a good idea (because of the war and aftermath).

    -

    Museum itself could use interactive exhibits (which can be very good nowadays).

    • Replies: @Mitleser
  94. Mr. Hack says:
    @Dmitry

    If you ever visit the New World, check out the excellent Russian Museum of Art in Minneapolis, MN. I’ve been there several times and have been quite impressed. Two exhibits that I saw there were particularly outstanding: 1) dedicated to Russian philately and 2) one exhibit of Russian iconography of Yaroslavl. (they even occasionally exhibit works of Ukrainian artists). Their permanent collection, mostly comprised of Soviet Realism works, will warm the heart of most any sovok…

  95. Stan says:

    Israel has legalized the de facto third class status of its Arab Christian and Arab Muslim population. One cannot wait to hear the response of the ADL, AJC and other self style jewish civil rights organizations in the US to the discrimination and marginalization by Israel of its Arab Mualim and Arab Christian population.

  96. Mitleser says:
    @Dmitry

    What about Wien or Prag?

    Berlin would not be a good idea (because of the war and occupation).

    Lots of museums plus authentic Russian history via the Soviet war memorial and the Russian exiles like Ivan Ilyin who used to live in Berlin.

  97. @Mitleser

    Europe doesn’t matter.
    I agree though that Berlin might be suitable for something like this.

  98. @Talha

    Jewish and Arab tribal nationalism (fuck the goyim/khuffar) are not recent import ideologies at all, but ancient and abiding ideologies core to shitty semitic peoples and their endogamous mating patterns. Of course the communities could co-exist with one another for a long time, just as the various jati communities across South Asia have, but that was predicated on clear social boundaries and barriers between communities with segregated social lives. What the 20th century “modernity” brought to the Middle East wasn’t the spark of race war, but rather the destruction of traditional socio-economic boundaries that kept communities in their place leading to more contact and more competition.

    • Replies: @Talha
  99. @Mr. Hack

    I don’t know how it is in America, but in Western Europe the museums which have a world-wide focus will have exhibitions and artefacts from France, Italy, Greece, China, Japan etc.

    But nothing or only very little from countries like Poland, the Ukraine, Russia, Rumania or Bulgaria.

    Perhaps in America Ukrainians are just considered generic whites, but in Western Europe people look down on Eastern Europeans.

    Yet, Germany, which was responsible for so much destruction and mayhem during WWII, I wouldn’t say is particularly looked down upon in the West today.

    To the extent that Germany is looked up to today, it is because it was the advanced Bundesrepublik, which had gained admiration in the post-war era, which brought upon reunification rather than the DDR.

    If it had been the DDR which survived instead and altered West Germany to the East German system, stereotypes of Ossis would probably have been far stronger in Western neighbour countries.

    • Replies: @German_reader
  100. Mr. Hack says:
    @Mr. Hack

    In fact, Dmitry, if your tastes are so inclined you may curently catch Leon Hushcha’s works at the Museum of Russian Art on exhibit thru September 1. Leon is a well known personality in the Ukrainian community in the Twin Cities area, as the Hushcha clan is well represented throughout the community as well. Leon’s artwork is quite modern and sought after by the larger art community outside of the ‘ghetto’ too. His current schtick is more abtract then it once was, sort of ala Jackson Pollock:

  101. @Mr. Hack

    Interesting. I used to spend a fair amount of time in Minneapolis, and have Russian and Ukrainian connections in the Twin Cities. But I don’t think this museum was open last time I was there. I do however remember an exhibit at the Minneapolis Institute of Art of what I think must have been
    paintings of Ilya Glazunov, although I didn’t know him at the time.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  102. @Hyperborean

    To the extent that Germany is looked up to today

    I don’t believe there’s really much genuine admiration or sympathy for Germany, rather massive resentment which will turn into schadenfreude once the country’s increasing dysfunction becomes more obvious internationally. Some of that is due to Germany’s economic dominance and the Euro crisis, but imo it’s still true that Germany is mostly seen through the lens of the world wars and the Nazi era, certainly in the English-speaking world.
    Regarding Ukraine, most people in Western countries just don’t know very much…I remember when I talked a few years ago with an acquaintance about Russia and Putin and she made a casual remark where she confused Ukraine with Uzbekistan… Mr Hack will certainly find it immensely irritating, but most Westerners probably regard Ukrainians as some kind of Russians.

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
  103. Mr. Hack says:
    @The Big Red Scary

    The museum has been around since 2002 (yes, time flies when you’re having fun). I’ve been there 3-4 times now. They have a great gift shop too. Here’s their website info:

    https://tmora.org/about/

  104. @German_reader

    I don’t believe there’s really much genuine admiration or sympathy for Germany

    Overall, I would say this is true. But those who do say positive things about Germany, at least in my experience, will tend to mention industrial or economic-related achievements – luxury cars, washing machines, German organisation skills, savers culture etc – which became associated with Germany during the Wirtschaftswunder.*

    Although as German internal decline continues this inherited reputation will probably eventually fade and only become a faint memory in elderly grandparents and museum exhibitions – just like the British ‘workshop of the world’.

    *Interestingly, while I have heard some Liberals praise Merkel for her disasterous migration policy, German media propaganda about the alleged usefulness of the migrants has also caused some of them to just see it as Germans being their usual crafty self rather than Germans kindly ‘opening their hearts’.

  105. cassandra says:

    The opening paragraph has a terrifying resonance:

    The Reichstag [Knesset] has just formally passed a Basic Law stipulating that the German Reich [Israel] is “the historical homeland of the German [Jewish] people and they have an exclusive right to national self-determination in it.”

    What is the solution for those in the population who are not German [Jewish]?
    Has no one noticed where ideas like these can, and have, taken us?

  106. Talha says:
    @Duke of Qin

    What does Arab nationalism have to do with Islamic in/out grouping? If anything, modern Arab ethno-nationalism allowed massive mobility to non-Muslim Arabs – you can see how many of them were disproportionately represented in organizations like the Baath Party at the highest levels.

    Arabs have always been tribal, it’s kind of one of their calling cards. It is something that can be powerful and a massive disadvantage, depending on the situation.

    Besides, how can we take criticisms on this front seriously from someone of your background and bent? The Chinese are the largest ethno-linguistic insular people on the face of the planet. And even that hasn’t stopped them from record-setting bloodfests among themselves:

    https://www.warhistoryonline.com/ancient-history/4-reasons-rome-fell-ever-fall-b.html

    Given the diversity (ethnic and religious) of the peoples of the Middle East, it is actually surprising they have not had a bloodier history than they actually do.

    that was predicated on clear social boundaries and barriers between communities with segregated social lives.

    It’s usually termed; good fences make good neighbors. And it worked fairly well – the Ottoman Dynasty did not set the world record for longest single family dynastic succession for nothing.

    but rather the destruction of traditional socio-economic boundaries that kept communities in their place leading to more contact and more competition.

    That too.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @Talha
  107. Armanen says:

    Ethno-state for me, vibrant diversity for thee, goyim! Typical jew chutzpah at work.

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