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Meanwhile Jaakko Raipala comments about political developments in Finland:

***

You figured it out. The Finns party has been recovering from the party collapsing and splitting into two. They betrayed all their promises on immigration during the Merkel migrant crisis, the party rebelled against its sellout leaders and Halla-aho was chosen as the new party chairman.

All the old leaders of the Finns party quit in 2017 to protest the evil racist Halla-aho and started a new cuckservative party called Sininen Tulevaisuus (Blue Reform). This is the first election for the two parties and the sellout Blue Reform was wiped out to zero seats. The Finns party recovered its old vote so now we have one debate settled in this country – there is absolutely no voter base for virtue signaling over how opposition to immigration must be done with “clean”, “palatable” arguments that don’t use real ethnic crime statistics or race and IQ charts like Halla-aho does.

PS. … while Halla-aho is extremely based and redpilled, he wouldn’t be very popular on this blog as he is super Ukrainophile and pro-NATO. He’s a PhD level expert on East Slavic languages and he is the only Finn I’ve ever met that’s fluent in Ukrainian. He used to live in Kiev.

***

Well, as we just saw in my country, the HBD blogger turned politician who has been universally vilified in the media as the leading evil Nazi racist bigot white supremacist for two decades is now the most popular politician in Finnish history. Cucks who thought they should please the media more than their voters have been wiped out.

Just keep going. All the potential voters hate the media. The recipe for success is very simple:

1. Don’t be a Nazi. Really, just don’t be. It was a stupid ideology.
2. Watch as the media calls you a Nazi anyway
3. Harvest public sympathies from people who are tired of being called Nazis when they’re not

It worked very well for Trump, though of course Trump had the advantage that he was already a famous man so baseless Nazi accusations worked massively in his favor.

***

What are you talking about? 17.5 % is a strong result in these elections. The largest party are the Social Democrats with 17.7 % of the vote and the second largest is the Finns party with 17.5 % of the vote.

https://www.iltalehti.fi/eduskuntavaalit-2019/tulospalvelu#/

SDP = Social Democrats, PS = Finns party, KOK = cuckservative, KESK = cuckcentrist, VIHR = Greens, VAS = “former” communists, RKP = ethnic Swedes, KD = tiny Christian party

By personal vote totals, the biggest winner is Jussi Halla-aho with 30527 votes in his district – the highest parliamentary vote total in Finnish history for any candidate. This is the HBD blogger turned politician that I mentioned. (This comparison is not entirely fair of course since some districts have less population. They do try to equalize them but it’s impossible with the north that has no people.)

In Finland, you vote for a person and the total of personal votes gets calculated for the party. Seats are given to the parties based on that total and then personal vote totals within the party decide who goes in. Halla-aho is pulling the Finns party behind him as they sadly have no other stars.

This entire election was effectively a test of whether race realism, HBD blog posts and “hate speech” convictions are political disqualifiers for voters as Halla-aho has all that. Since he became the new leader of the Finns party after the party split in two, the strategy of all the other parties was reminding voters about how racist and evil Halla-aho is and how much more acceptable the other party that split off from the Finns is. This has been a total failure as the story of the election is that the Finns gathered back their vote share that had collapsed due to the party fracture and the other split off party was utterly destroyed down to zero seats.

Of course, the other parties will likely isolate the Finns and they won’t get into the government but this is a conclusive result that open race realism, “hate speech” convictions and blunt real talk is no vote loser at all for a nationalist party.

***

I should also add that Halla-aho scored the highest personal vote total in the election district of Helsinki, the purely urban district. Helsinki is the shitlib center of Finland, yet the most popular politician in Helsinki is a nationalist and a general believer in the exact opposite things of the urban SJW.

The second most popular candidate in Helsinki is the leader of the “former” communist, now multiculti LBGT “Left” party (and an ethnic Swede, fucking Swedes behind multiculturalism as usual). What we’re seeing is a new political alignment in the capital around a multiculti-SJW pole and a race realist, immigration focused nationalism pole. The youth is especially polarized so it will grow even more strict in the future.

The Finns party was built on the ruins of a party called the Finnish Rural Party. They used to score 0 % in Helsinki until immigration became an issue and people like Halla-aho showed up with their HBDish talking points.

 
• Category: Ideology • Tags: Finland, Human Biodiversity, Politics 
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  1. [MORE]

    HBD IN MOON LANDINGS: ISRAELI MOON ATTEMPT CRASHES, BUT CHINESE SURVIVED?

    Talking about HBD, I am surprised that this big news is not being discussed much.

    The Judaists claim that “we are all the same”, call race a social construct, support BLM, but then claim THEY are the smartest people on earth.

    Their Jewish media constantly pumps HBD King, Einstein, as being the smartest man on earth, even though he was a plagiarist.

    Jordan Peterson, an HBD expert, says Judaists are super rich not because they are super crooked, but because they are super smart, compared to super stupid whites.

    But the stupid whites allegedly sent a MAN on the moon, in the 60’s (wink, wink) , and the Chinese sent a rover to the moon in 2019, that sent photos for a few hours and then has not been heard from, but the Israeli beresheet crashed, and did not even land on the moon, despite probably being built with technology stolen from the Americans.

    https://www.space.com/beresheet-moon-crash-engine-glitch.html

    • Replies: @El Dato

    Their Jewish media constantly pumps HBD King, Einstein, as being the smartest man on earth, even though he was a plagiarist.
     
    Lolno. Bet you don't even understand Riemannian Geometry.


    but the Israeli beresheet crashed, and did not even land on the moon, despite probably being built with technology stolen from the Americans.
     
    Uh, "stolen american" technology. Is everyone a plagiarist in your fantasy world?

    Top Hint: In 2019, you can get to the Moon with stuff you can buy in any industrialized town.

    I heard reason for Beresheet crashing was lack of Quality Assurance foremost. They were in a hurry to assemble the thing because the launcher was going up and some modules were tardy in delivery. Result: mission failure.

    Anyway, who cares. It's a hobby. Israel should make up its mind whether it's a "private enterprise" mission or an "Israeli" mission in any case. Can't have it both way.
    , @Anonymous

    But the stupid whites allegedly sent a MAN on the moon, in the 60’s (wink, wink) , and the Chinese sent a rover to the moon in 2019, that sent photos for a few hours and then has not been heard from, but the Israeli beresheet crashed, and did not even land on the moon, despite probably being built with technology stolen from the Americans.
     
    One difference is that there are <10 million Israelis, whereas there are over a billion Chinamen and over 300 million Americans.

    A Jewish state of hundreds of millions, let alone over a billion, people would probably be...formidable, to say the least.
    , @EastKekistani

    But the stupid whites allegedly sent a MAN on the moon, in the 60’s (wink, wink) , and the Chinese sent a rover to the moon in 2019, that sent photos for a few hours and then has not been heard from, but the Israeli beresheet crashed, and did not even land on the moon, despite probably being built with technology stolen from the Americans.
     
    https://www.newsnation.in/science-news/yutu-2-rover-travels-over-170-meters-on-moon-all-you-need-to-know-change-4-mission-china-article-220206.html

    Yutu-2 is still alive as far as I know.

    As for Beresheet this is just one case. I will change my view if future Israeli attempts mostly fail.
    , @Yevardian
    Can you ban rational's incoherent rantings from this blog? He's far worse than gerard2 could ever be.
  2. Just because weird, arcane and anti-social argumentation works on a percentage of Finns does not mean it will work on other humans.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Finns in general have a reputation for being autistic. I don't know if it's true or not, but that's the stereotype. So what works in Finland might not translate elsewhere.
    , @notanon
    correct but...

    herd animals

    when it happens it will be overnight.
    , @Anonymous
    My impression of the country is admittedly largely based on 4chan, but I'd have to agree: Finland is an unusual country and not really representative of much. High IQ, geographic isolation from the rest of Europe and a unique language (yes I'm aware that Finns also speak excellent English, I know them from 4chan remember) are probably all contributing factors.

    Other posters have made this point, but simplified notions of HBD are already widespread and used frequently by individuals in their day to day lives. In countries that are still relatively homogeneous (like Finland) you can probably use a toned-down version of these ideas as the basis of a political platform. But in America I think the implications are too broad and ugly and tragic for such ideas to ever truly go mainstream. Yes I've heard the analogies with height, but imo height is a trivial characteristic as compared to cognitive ability. In a multicultural society you can't officially acknowledge a group of people--who have class consciousness by the way--as a permanent underclass, which is what HBD does. To the contrary, a certain level of enforced politeness is probably required.
  3. They don’t call it Finlandisation for nothing.

    • Replies: @Che Guava
    Finlandiistanisation would be more correct.
  4. Well, tweets are of limited size. She could’ve meant the real west, inner hajnal’s line world, where her prophecy so far looks to have strength. Finnish are on the outskirts and they are more tribal, similar in this regard as other outskirts in direction (if not in power) of their divergence from the inner hajnal’s line world, such as the scotts, the irish, southern italians etc.

  5. HBD is like the cream rising to the top. It’s only a matter of time before the apparent becomes blatantly obvious. China, Japan, Korea still run smooth, while Western Countries are dysfunctional. There is constant lecturing about low birth-rates, yet Japan has the same issues and doesn’t use mass immigration. I’m glad the HBD people are making gains. It’s about time the obvious be talked about in an open dialogue.

    • Replies: @dfordoom

    China, Japan, Korea still run smooth, while Western Countries are dysfunctional. There is constant lecturing about low birth-rates, yet Japan has the same issues and doesn’t use mass immigration.
     
    Fertility rates in East Asia are even lower than in the West. These high-IQ societies are committing suicide even faster than European countries.

    Maybe high IQ is dysfunctional and culturally destructive?
  6. Every knows the Finns are an odd outlier group. Maybe they’re uniquely susceptible to HBD arguments.

  7. It’s funny how she argues about which intellectual interests make you cool and which make you a nerd like she’s still in school.

    • Agree: Mark G.
    • Replies: @Oleaginous Outrager
    And it's all true because she said so.
  8. This is covered in more depth by Harri Honkanen in VDARE.com, for those interested.

    https://vdare.com/articles/stunning-election-surge-by-immigration-patriot-finns-party

    The catalyst for a lot of this is Junes Lokka, an independent nationalist councillor, who helped expose the Oulu Muslim grooming scandal. Sadly, the Finns Party turned him down as a candidate. Honkanen claims that the Finns Party found him too extreme. However, his Wikipedia entry indicates a drug issue as well

    https://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Junes_Lokka

    • Replies: @Jaakko Raipala
    Junes Lokka is an unusual character. He is half-Moroccan, born in Morocco and his native language is French. He is too dark to pass as an ethnic Finn by looks but he is still a fervent Finnish nationalist. His background and swarthy looks of course don't protect him from being branded a "nazi" by leftists.

    He has done a lot of good work but he has some, eh, issues relating to his background which make him occasionally unhinged. I assume the Finnish last name and him moving to Finland as a kid means that the Finnish mom left Morocco and broke ties with the father but that's just my guess, I don't know him.

  9. Anonymous[375] • Disclaimer says:
    @Cagey Beast
    Just because weird, arcane and anti-social argumentation works on a percentage of Finns does not mean it will work on other humans.

    Finns in general have a reputation for being autistic. I don’t know if it’s true or not, but that’s the stereotype. So what works in Finland might not translate elsewhere.

    • Replies: @Reezy
    Finland gave the world Linus Torvalds, without whom over half (conservatively) of the world's server architectures would not be functioning as efficiently as they are.

    So praise Allah for the autistic Finns!

  10. @Rational


    HBD IN MOON LANDINGS: ISRAELI MOON ATTEMPT CRASHES, BUT CHINESE SURVIVED?

    Talking about HBD, I am surprised that this big news is not being discussed much.

    The Judaists claim that “we are all the same”, call race a social construct, support BLM, but then claim THEY are the smartest people on earth.

    Their Jewish media constantly pumps HBD King, Einstein, as being the smartest man on earth, even though he was a plagiarist.

    Jordan Peterson, an HBD expert, says Judaists are super rich not because they are super crooked, but because they are super smart, compared to super stupid whites.

    But the stupid whites allegedly sent a MAN on the moon, in the 60’s (wink, wink) , and the Chinese sent a rover to the moon in 2019, that sent photos for a few hours and then has not been heard from, but the Israeli beresheet crashed, and did not even land on the moon, despite probably being built with technology stolen from the Americans.

    https://www.space.com/beresheet-moon-crash-engine-glitch.html

    Their Jewish media constantly pumps HBD King, Einstein, as being the smartest man on earth, even though he was a plagiarist.

    Lolno. Bet you don’t even understand Riemannian Geometry.

    but the Israeli beresheet crashed, and did not even land on the moon, despite probably being built with technology stolen from the Americans.

    Uh, “stolen american” technology. Is everyone a plagiarist in your fantasy world?

    Top Hint: In 2019, you can get to the Moon with stuff you can buy in any industrialized town.

    I heard reason for Beresheet crashing was lack of Quality Assurance foremost. They were in a hurry to assemble the thing because the launcher was going up and some modules were tardy in delivery. Result: mission failure.

    Anyway, who cares. It’s a hobby. Israel should make up its mind whether it’s a “private enterprise” mission or an “Israeli” mission in any case. Can’t have it both way.

    • Replies: @WHAT
    I`d very much like to see you buying rocket engines in some mall!
    , @jbwilson24
    "Lolno. Bet you don’t even understand Riemannian Geometry."

    Oooh, an argument ad hominem. We've got a Mensa member here.

    "Uh, “stolen american” technology. "

    Israel steals a crapload of American technology, dummy. They also attack US warships and share military secrets with China.
    , @ThreeCranes
    "Bet you don’t even understand Riemannian Geometry"

    I believe you just made Rational's point.
  11. So, what actually *is* the recipe for winning culture and civilization wars?

    Iron cutlery, horse-mounted mongolian hordes and factories pumping out T-34s?

    • Replies: @notanon

    So, what actually *is* the recipe for winning culture and civilization wars?
     
    two recipes

    1) media control

    2) the truth
    , @Daniel Chieh
    At this moment, probably the ability of a civilization to continually create children of at least middling quality in intelligence.
  12. To study the violent crime statistics of different races, don’t you need accurate information and a universal definition of what race is? In studies used to allocate scholarship money for Black, Hispanic and other minority applicants, universities likely supply researchers with the number of minority applicants in all groups v/s the number of white applicants.

    In violent crime statistics, where a minority group is possibly not benefited by separate skin-pigmentation categories, whites, Hispanics and other minorities are grouped together under the white label, with Blacks and whites constitute the only separate categories if it helps get a good outcome for Hispanics or other minorities.

  13. You can’t have it both ways. On the one hand they argue that everyone is just living in their moms basement. On the other hand they are censoring everyone online, sending police after everyone who is pro white, passing ever more draconian laws and are now calling white nationalists worse than Al Qaeda. So which of the two is it?

  14. @Verymuchalive
    This is covered in more depth by Harri Honkanen in VDARE.com, for those interested.

    https://vdare.com/articles/stunning-election-surge-by-immigration-patriot-finns-party

    The catalyst for a lot of this is Junes Lokka, an independent nationalist councillor, who helped expose the Oulu Muslim grooming scandal. Sadly, the Finns Party turned him down as a candidate. Honkanen claims that the Finns Party found him too extreme. However, his Wikipedia entry indicates a drug issue as well



    https://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Junes_Lokka

    Junes Lokka is an unusual character. He is half-Moroccan, born in Morocco and his native language is French. He is too dark to pass as an ethnic Finn by looks but he is still a fervent Finnish nationalist. His background and swarthy looks of course don’t protect him from being branded a “nazi” by leftists.

    He has done a lot of good work but he has some, eh, issues relating to his background which make him occasionally unhinged. I assume the Finnish last name and him moving to Finland as a kid means that the Finnish mom left Morocco and broke ties with the father but that’s just my guess, I don’t know him.

  15. @Cagey Beast
    Just because weird, arcane and anti-social argumentation works on a percentage of Finns does not mean it will work on other humans.

    correct but…

    herd animals

    when it happens it will be overnight.

  16. @El Dato
    So, what actually *is* the recipe for winning culture and civilization wars?

    Iron cutlery, horse-mounted mongolian hordes and factories pumping out T-34s?

    So, what actually *is* the recipe for winning culture and civilization wars?

    two recipes

    1) media control

    2) the truth

  17. Why appeal to HBD in politics? It is much more reasonable to argue anti-immigration policy by the fact of the formation of non-integrated diasporas, social parasitism, crime, etc., etc. (without entering into discussions about the role of heredity and non-hereditary factors). The social base of the “Alt-right” rednecks, IQ cultism it absolutely not attractive.

    • Replies: @German_reader

    It is much more reasonable to argue anti-immigration policy by the fact of the formation of non-integrated diasporas, social parasitism, crime
     
    In Western European discourse those issues are usually attributed to native society not being inclusive enough ("racism", "xenophobia" etc.), to discrimination against and economic marginalization of immigrants etc.
    Or you could get endless debates about "values"...which only leads to futile attempts at re-educating Muslims into being feminists and pro-homo, but ending mass immigration still isn't being considered (because it would be against our "values" or whatever).
    The attraction of HBD would be to break up that framing in the harshest way possible and to state unequivocally "It isn't our responsibility that these people are the way they are, and no, we can't fix them, the only option is to keep them out, otherwise they'll ruin our societies".
    I'm not saying it will work, and personally I wouldn't rely on HBD too much (tbh much of what passes under that name seems dubious to me anyway)...but the approaches often recommended by commenters here like "Let's talk about economics! Enter into alliances with conservative immigrants!" are certain to be dead-ends imo.
    , @notanon
    different strokes
    - push hbd to spergs
    - push populism to rednecks

    people are lazy and so they defer to "experts"

    spergs may be few in number but they're gonna be our alternative experts.
  18. HBD is perhaps less interesting for some after getting over the incredible shock that one has been lied to about an essential topic, but there’s no escaping the conclusions. HBD means that current immigration and education policy is badly misconfigured. There’s no way to brush the findings aside.

    • Replies: @DFH

    HBD means that current immigration and education policy is badly misconfigured
     
    It applies within races as well yet is still lied about; like the misguided attempts to equalise working class and private/state school admissions into Oxford and Cambridge.

    Even before I was redpilled on race that always amazed me because it is so obviously wrong to anyone who knows about basic heredity.

    , @notanon
    yeah one of the most important angles of HBD (that isn't pushed enough imo) is simply the "they lied to you" angle (same with the economics debate) - destroying trust in the current priesthood is key.
  19. If you go back a century or even a bit before that, intellectuals in the Anglosphere were keenly interested in evolution, almost treating it like a cult. It influenced not only traditional scientific disciplines but also fields like ethical philosophy. Furthermore the eugenics movement actually had some political success in some U.S. states, Sweden, Switzerland, and some other places. Nina Kouprianova’s claim is wrong because it lacks historical perspective.

    Her line about people in their “teens and early twenties” makes it worth making another historical comparison. It shouldn’t be forgotten that utopian leftist ideas like Marxism have traditionally been dismissed as adolescent fantasies, but they cannot be said to have never won any cultural or civilizational wars.

    • Replies: @EldnahYm
    I couldn't edit in time. But I want to note that a century ago physical anthropology was a subject with some hobbyist support from the public and very much was the HBD subject of its era. I earlier mentioned fields like science and philosophy, but anyone who has read Robert E. Howard much knows this material made its way into literature as well.

    The enemy of hereditarianism of the time, Boas, used the same "nerdy" methods like analyzing skull shapes as part of (fraudulent) studies for the United States Immigration Commission. These results were later used to argue for immigration reform. So these nerdy ideas that only teens and early twenties should care about actually matter a great deal.

  20. @EldnahYm
    If you go back a century or even a bit before that, intellectuals in the Anglosphere were keenly interested in evolution, almost treating it like a cult. It influenced not only traditional scientific disciplines but also fields like ethical philosophy. Furthermore the eugenics movement actually had some political success in some U.S. states, Sweden, Switzerland, and some other places. Nina Kouprianova's claim is wrong because it lacks historical perspective.

    Her line about people in their "teens and early twenties" makes it worth making another historical comparison. It shouldn't be forgotten that utopian leftist ideas like Marxism have traditionally been dismissed as adolescent fantasies, but they cannot be said to have never won any cultural or civilizational wars.

    I couldn’t edit in time. But I want to note that a century ago physical anthropology was a subject with some hobbyist support from the public and very much was the HBD subject of its era. I earlier mentioned fields like science and philosophy, but anyone who has read Robert E. Howard much knows this material made its way into literature as well.

    The enemy of hereditarianism of the time, Boas, used the same “nerdy” methods like analyzing skull shapes as part of (fraudulent) studies for the United States Immigration Commission. These results were later used to argue for immigration reform. So these nerdy ideas that only teens and early twenties should care about actually matter a great deal.

  21. Anonymous[151] • Disclaimer says:
    @Cagey Beast
    Just because weird, arcane and anti-social argumentation works on a percentage of Finns does not mean it will work on other humans.

    My impression of the country is admittedly largely based on 4chan, but I’d have to agree: Finland is an unusual country and not really representative of much. High IQ, geographic isolation from the rest of Europe and a unique language (yes I’m aware that Finns also speak excellent English, I know them from 4chan remember) are probably all contributing factors.

    Other posters have made this point, but simplified notions of HBD are already widespread and used frequently by individuals in their day to day lives. In countries that are still relatively homogeneous (like Finland) you can probably use a toned-down version of these ideas as the basis of a political platform. But in America I think the implications are too broad and ugly and tragic for such ideas to ever truly go mainstream. Yes I’ve heard the analogies with height, but imo height is a trivial characteristic as compared to cognitive ability. In a multicultural society you can’t officially acknowledge a group of people–who have class consciousness by the way–as a permanent underclass, which is what HBD does. To the contrary, a certain level of enforced politeness is probably required.

    • Replies: @Boswald Bollocksworth
    HBD is unlikely to ever go mainstream in America, tho I could see it becoming widely known and more or less included in certain quantitative academic disciplines. For example, Garret Jones hasn’t been burned at the stake yet, just replace “IQ” with “ability” the way population geneticists say “population” instead of “race”.

    I’ve explained HBD to family in America, had them accept it, shocked, but accept it. Then a few months later they’ve totally forgotten about it and are wondering why the local schools, filled with Somalis, are so bad. The conditioning infrastructure works.
    , @notanon

    In a multicultural society you can’t officially acknowledge a group of people–who have class consciousness by the way–as a permanent underclass, which is what HBD does.
     
    you can maybe squeeze round that by pointing out HBD (eugenics) is the only way to lift up populations who are currently doomed to being a permanent underclass.
    , @Daniel Chieh
    Finnish are a little unusual but I didn't find them to be aliens or anything. My experience though was that even their liberals often had what we'd consider as nationalistic inclinations: e.g. being very pro-Sami, but anti-Islamic.
  22. @melanf
    Why appeal to HBD in politics? It is much more reasonable to argue anti-immigration policy by the fact of the formation of non-integrated diasporas, social parasitism, crime, etc., etc. (without entering into discussions about the role of heredity and non-hereditary factors). The social base of the "Alt-right" rednecks, IQ cultism it absolutely not attractive.

    It is much more reasonable to argue anti-immigration policy by the fact of the formation of non-integrated diasporas, social parasitism, crime

    In Western European discourse those issues are usually attributed to native society not being inclusive enough (“racism”, “xenophobia” etc.), to discrimination against and economic marginalization of immigrants etc.
    Or you could get endless debates about “values”…which only leads to futile attempts at re-educating Muslims into being feminists and pro-homo, but ending mass immigration still isn’t being considered (because it would be against our “values” or whatever).
    The attraction of HBD would be to break up that framing in the harshest way possible and to state unequivocally “It isn’t our responsibility that these people are the way they are, and no, we can’t fix them, the only option is to keep them out, otherwise they’ll ruin our societies”.
    I’m not saying it will work, and personally I wouldn’t rely on HBD too much (tbh much of what passes under that name seems dubious to me anyway)…but the approaches often recommended by commenters here like “Let’s talk about economics! Enter into alliances with conservative immigrants!” are certain to be dead-ends imo.

    • Agree: Hyperborean, reiner Tor, WHAT
  23. @Boswald Bollocksworth
    HBD is perhaps less interesting for some after getting over the incredible shock that one has been lied to about an essential topic, but there’s no escaping the conclusions. HBD means that current immigration and education policy is badly misconfigured. There’s no way to brush the findings aside.

    HBD means that current immigration and education policy is badly misconfigured

    It applies within races as well yet is still lied about; like the misguided attempts to equalise working class and private/state school admissions into Oxford and Cambridge.

    Even before I was redpilled on race that always amazed me because it is so obviously wrong to anyone who knows about basic heredity.

  24. @Anonymous
    My impression of the country is admittedly largely based on 4chan, but I'd have to agree: Finland is an unusual country and not really representative of much. High IQ, geographic isolation from the rest of Europe and a unique language (yes I'm aware that Finns also speak excellent English, I know them from 4chan remember) are probably all contributing factors.

    Other posters have made this point, but simplified notions of HBD are already widespread and used frequently by individuals in their day to day lives. In countries that are still relatively homogeneous (like Finland) you can probably use a toned-down version of these ideas as the basis of a political platform. But in America I think the implications are too broad and ugly and tragic for such ideas to ever truly go mainstream. Yes I've heard the analogies with height, but imo height is a trivial characteristic as compared to cognitive ability. In a multicultural society you can't officially acknowledge a group of people--who have class consciousness by the way--as a permanent underclass, which is what HBD does. To the contrary, a certain level of enforced politeness is probably required.

    HBD is unlikely to ever go mainstream in America, tho I could see it becoming widely known and more or less included in certain quantitative academic disciplines. For example, Garret Jones hasn’t been burned at the stake yet, just replace “IQ” with “ability” the way population geneticists say “population” instead of “race”.

    I’ve explained HBD to family in America, had them accept it, shocked, but accept it. Then a few months later they’ve totally forgotten about it and are wondering why the local schools, filled with Somalis, are so bad. The conditioning infrastructure works.

    • Replies: @notanon

    HBD is unlikely to ever go mainstream in America,
     
    i think it is already going mainstream but under the surface - i agree it might not be publicly stated but i expect policy proposals based on HBD to start popping up but disguised (in a similar way to how cultural Marxist ideas were disguised as liberal ideas).
    , @Dr. Doom
    "Mainstream" ?
    Haha
    There is no such animal.

    The more the bagel boys tighten their censorship, the more eyeballs will simply slip through their dinosaur media!
  25. I should note that “HBD blogger” is kind of missing it, mostly he was an anti-SJW blogger who just always refused to cuck on HBD so he became famous for it because journalists would bring up his most wrongthink opinions over and over again. Halla-aho has his own style who tends to follow the same format: he finds journalists, politicians and academics making a claim or using a source and then uses them as a launching point “alright, if this is true, then let’s look at the full implications…”

    For example, parts on race and IQ, “The relative impossibility of measuring intelligence”

    http://www.halla-aho.com/scripta/alykkyyden_mittaamisen_suhteellinen_mahdottomuus.html

    “(sarcasm) As we all know, intelligence cannot be measured. Because it cannot be measured, all the studies which tell us that the average African IQ is a standard deviation lower than the European one are invalid and racist. (/sarcasm)”
    ….
    “Ilta-Sanomat [big newspaper] reported on 28.3. on studies by the usually unpersoned professor Richard Lynn with the headline “Finns do not succeed in measures of intelligence”. However the accuracy of this gloating headline isn’t exactly explicit in Lynn’s data. The “zero” of the scale, the standard, is 100. The world average is 90. Finnish average IQ is 99, thus practically the standard of the scale”…

    So he notices that a pro-multiculti, ethnomasochist newspaper treats Richard Lynn as a plausible source because it gave them an opportunity to gloat over Finnish national failings like our IQ of 99. Well that’s a good starting point.

    …”The strangest thing is what Ilta-Sanomat failed to report. Lynn’s study has data not only for the distribution of intelligence in Europe but also for the rest of the world. Here is a useful IQ chart: http://www.vdare.com/rushton/060322_iq_pic.htm. The Chinese and the Japanese are the smartest which rather accurately correlates with the success of Chinese and Japanese emigres. The average IQ of sub-Saharan African peoples ranges from 67 to 56. In a population with an average IQ of 100, such a score compares to mental retardation and obviously excludes the possibility of successfully participating in society.”

    “…the alternatives to fit this in the “tolerant” worldview that Ilta-Sanomat promotes then are the following:

    a) Measuring intelligence is possible in the case of Europeans and Chinese but not in the case of Africans. If so then we need an explanation. If the explanation factor is culture, why does it not make measuring Chinese IQ impossible?

    b) Measuring intelligence is possible for all cases but somehow the lower IQ of Africans doesn’t mean that Africans would tend to fail in integration and participation in Western society. If so, then we need an explanation. We have evidence to the contrary. Africans have performed both in Africa and in multicultural European (and American) societies just as intelligence research predicts.

    c) Measuring intelligence is possible and the low average IQ of Africans with all of its implications for a multicultural society is true. If so then we need to be explained why multiculturalism is still a good thing.”

    He is not obsessive on IQ and he has only a few posts on the issue – but he has refused to cuck and renounce his race and IQ stances even though he has been told over and over again that he needs to do it to become more “palatable” and to not “alienate” voters. I don’t know if he makes a successful leader though given that he really is a nerdy intellectual type who doesn’t even like being in politics – he’d probably still be in academia if he hadn’t been exiled – but this stuff definitely does not anger voters the way it angers media and academia. We had it tested.

  26. @El Dato

    Their Jewish media constantly pumps HBD King, Einstein, as being the smartest man on earth, even though he was a plagiarist.
     
    Lolno. Bet you don't even understand Riemannian Geometry.


    but the Israeli beresheet crashed, and did not even land on the moon, despite probably being built with technology stolen from the Americans.
     
    Uh, "stolen american" technology. Is everyone a plagiarist in your fantasy world?

    Top Hint: In 2019, you can get to the Moon with stuff you can buy in any industrialized town.

    I heard reason for Beresheet crashing was lack of Quality Assurance foremost. They were in a hurry to assemble the thing because the launcher was going up and some modules were tardy in delivery. Result: mission failure.

    Anyway, who cares. It's a hobby. Israel should make up its mind whether it's a "private enterprise" mission or an "Israeli" mission in any case. Can't have it both way.

    I`d very much like to see you buying rocket engines in some mall!

  27. Isn`t she an ex-wife of Spencer the Literally Hitler?

    • Replies: @simple_pseudonymic_handle
    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/richard-spencer-wife-domestic-violence-nina-kouprianova-alt-right-russia-a8729226.html

    They should have been a reality television show.
  28. @El Dato

    Their Jewish media constantly pumps HBD King, Einstein, as being the smartest man on earth, even though he was a plagiarist.
     
    Lolno. Bet you don't even understand Riemannian Geometry.


    but the Israeli beresheet crashed, and did not even land on the moon, despite probably being built with technology stolen from the Americans.
     
    Uh, "stolen american" technology. Is everyone a plagiarist in your fantasy world?

    Top Hint: In 2019, you can get to the Moon with stuff you can buy in any industrialized town.

    I heard reason for Beresheet crashing was lack of Quality Assurance foremost. They were in a hurry to assemble the thing because the launcher was going up and some modules were tardy in delivery. Result: mission failure.

    Anyway, who cares. It's a hobby. Israel should make up its mind whether it's a "private enterprise" mission or an "Israeli" mission in any case. Can't have it both way.

    “Lolno. Bet you don’t even understand Riemannian Geometry.”

    Oooh, an argument ad hominem. We’ve got a Mensa member here.

    “Uh, “stolen american” technology. ”

    Israel steals a crapload of American technology, dummy. They also attack US warships and share military secrets with China.

  29. @melanf
    Why appeal to HBD in politics? It is much more reasonable to argue anti-immigration policy by the fact of the formation of non-integrated diasporas, social parasitism, crime, etc., etc. (without entering into discussions about the role of heredity and non-hereditary factors). The social base of the "Alt-right" rednecks, IQ cultism it absolutely not attractive.

    different strokes
    – push hbd to spergs
    – push populism to rednecks

    people are lazy and so they defer to “experts”

    spergs may be few in number but they’re gonna be our alternative experts.

  30. @Boswald Bollocksworth
    HBD is perhaps less interesting for some after getting over the incredible shock that one has been lied to about an essential topic, but there’s no escaping the conclusions. HBD means that current immigration and education policy is badly misconfigured. There’s no way to brush the findings aside.

    yeah one of the most important angles of HBD (that isn’t pushed enough imo) is simply the “they lied to you” angle (same with the economics debate) – destroying trust in the current priesthood is key.

  31. @Anonymous
    My impression of the country is admittedly largely based on 4chan, but I'd have to agree: Finland is an unusual country and not really representative of much. High IQ, geographic isolation from the rest of Europe and a unique language (yes I'm aware that Finns also speak excellent English, I know them from 4chan remember) are probably all contributing factors.

    Other posters have made this point, but simplified notions of HBD are already widespread and used frequently by individuals in their day to day lives. In countries that are still relatively homogeneous (like Finland) you can probably use a toned-down version of these ideas as the basis of a political platform. But in America I think the implications are too broad and ugly and tragic for such ideas to ever truly go mainstream. Yes I've heard the analogies with height, but imo height is a trivial characteristic as compared to cognitive ability. In a multicultural society you can't officially acknowledge a group of people--who have class consciousness by the way--as a permanent underclass, which is what HBD does. To the contrary, a certain level of enforced politeness is probably required.

    In a multicultural society you can’t officially acknowledge a group of people–who have class consciousness by the way–as a permanent underclass, which is what HBD does.

    you can maybe squeeze round that by pointing out HBD (eugenics) is the only way to lift up populations who are currently doomed to being a permanent underclass.

  32. @Boswald Bollocksworth
    HBD is unlikely to ever go mainstream in America, tho I could see it becoming widely known and more or less included in certain quantitative academic disciplines. For example, Garret Jones hasn’t been burned at the stake yet, just replace “IQ” with “ability” the way population geneticists say “population” instead of “race”.

    I’ve explained HBD to family in America, had them accept it, shocked, but accept it. Then a few months later they’ve totally forgotten about it and are wondering why the local schools, filled with Somalis, are so bad. The conditioning infrastructure works.

    HBD is unlikely to ever go mainstream in America,

    i think it is already going mainstream but under the surface – i agree it might not be publicly stated but i expect policy proposals based on HBD to start popping up but disguised (in a similar way to how cultural Marxist ideas were disguised as liberal ideas).

  33. What are you talking about? 17.5 % is a strong result in these elections. The largest party are the Social Democrats with 17.7 % of the vote and the second largest is the Finns party with 17.5 % of the vote.

    Doesn’t that actually mean that there is not a single party that enjoys any kind of widespread support? That all the parties are in fact equally disliked?

    There seems to be an astonishing amount of wishful thinking on the part of anti-immigrationists, nationalists, etc.

    Another way of looking at it is that the anti-immigration party got 17.5 % of the vote, and the pro-immigration parties got 82.5%.

    • Replies: @Jaakko Raipala
    Dude, what is your problem? You kept saying that people won't vote for honesty about HBD and that it should be avoided in favor of some other argument against immigration because HBD is bad, bad, bad with the voters. Yet here we have a party leader who refers to Rushton's data in his arguments which alienated half the party elites who split off to form a new cuck party - but the voters didn't care at all and they returned the party to its original size.

    But I suppose you think the anti-immigration party would have scored over 50 % if only they had only spoken about OUR WESTERN VALUES or some other milquetoast "palatable" stuff.
  34. @Archimedes
    HBD is like the cream rising to the top. It's only a matter of time before the apparent becomes blatantly obvious. China, Japan, Korea still run smooth, while Western Countries are dysfunctional. There is constant lecturing about low birth-rates, yet Japan has the same issues and doesn't use mass immigration. I'm glad the HBD people are making gains. It's about time the obvious be talked about in an open dialogue.

    China, Japan, Korea still run smooth, while Western Countries are dysfunctional. There is constant lecturing about low birth-rates, yet Japan has the same issues and doesn’t use mass immigration.

    Fertility rates in East Asia are even lower than in the West. These high-IQ societies are committing suicide even faster than European countries.

    Maybe high IQ is dysfunctional and culturally destructive?

    • Replies: @Hyperborean

    Fertility rates in East Asia are even lower than in the West. These high-IQ societies are committing suicide even faster than European countries.

    Maybe high IQ is dysfunctional and culturally destructive?
     
    American blacks' fertility rates are below replacement level and so are several South East Asian countries.

    Bangladesh went from around 7.0% TFR to around 2.1% TRF in roughly three decades.

    It seems more probable that modern fertility is more connected to urbanisation, level of education, economic structure, health care, social expectations, female labour participation structure, etc.
    , @Daniel Chieh

    Maybe high IQ is dysfunctional and culturally destructive?

     

    Dostoevsky would almost certainly agree. A little bit of irrational madness is probably ideal.

    “If someone proved to me that Christ is outside the truth and that in reality the truth were outside of Christ, then I should prefer to remain with Christ rather than with the truth.”
    , @Toronto Russian

    Fertility rates in East Asia are even lower than in the West. These high-IQ societies are committing suicide even faster than European countries.

    Maybe high IQ is dysfunctional and culturally destructive?
     
    No, abusive employers and uncaring government are.

    ...I met a young man named Jou Matsubara, who graduated from Rikkyo Daigaku, a prestigious private college in Japan. Matsubara, who comes from a working-class family, thought he’d achieved the Japanese dream when he graduated from college and got a job at Daiwa House Group, a Japanese home builder.

    The company advertised itself as a great place to work, but Matsubara, who was a wrestler in college, told me it soon became evident that it was anything but. Though company employees left work at 7 p.m. on paper, Matsubara said he was required to work until late at night almost every day. Employees were required to sign off at 7 p.m., even if they were still working, and were given iPads so that they could do so even if they were out of the office at meetings. If they didn’t sign off, they’d get a call on their cellphones brusquely asking them to sign off immediately but keep working, he said. “The amount of time you're actually working and the amount of time that is recorded you're working have absolutely no relation to each other,” he said. Matsubara got almost no time off, and was required to take classes to receive real-estate certifications on Tuesdays and Wednesdays, which were days he was told he’d have free. This lifestyle made dating impossible. The closest he got to women, he said, was when his boss would drag him to cabaret clubs, and then make him pick up the tab.

    After a year, the long hours and stress started to affect his health. Matsubara had trouble sleeping, and started hearing voices. He fell into a depression, he said, because the experience he had expected from a regular job and his own experience were so different. Matsubara told me he was taken to the hospital multiple times in an ambulance because he couldn't breathe. Eventually, he suffered a nervous breakdown. He said the company forced him to resign, and then made him pay back the money he’d saved from living in a company dormitory. (Daiwa House did not return a request for comment.) Matsubara is now living on welfare. “My life that was going smoothly and systematically was destroyed by Daiwa House,” he said. He estimated that out of the 800 people who started with him at Daiwa House, 600 have quit.

    https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2017/07/japan-mystery-low-birth-rate/534291/
     
  35. @El Dato

    Their Jewish media constantly pumps HBD King, Einstein, as being the smartest man on earth, even though he was a plagiarist.
     
    Lolno. Bet you don't even understand Riemannian Geometry.


    but the Israeli beresheet crashed, and did not even land on the moon, despite probably being built with technology stolen from the Americans.
     
    Uh, "stolen american" technology. Is everyone a plagiarist in your fantasy world?

    Top Hint: In 2019, you can get to the Moon with stuff you can buy in any industrialized town.

    I heard reason for Beresheet crashing was lack of Quality Assurance foremost. They were in a hurry to assemble the thing because the launcher was going up and some modules were tardy in delivery. Result: mission failure.

    Anyway, who cares. It's a hobby. Israel should make up its mind whether it's a "private enterprise" mission or an "Israeli" mission in any case. Can't have it both way.

    “Bet you don’t even understand Riemannian Geometry”

    I believe you just made Rational’s point.

  36. Anonymous[679] • Disclaimer says:
    @Rational


    HBD IN MOON LANDINGS: ISRAELI MOON ATTEMPT CRASHES, BUT CHINESE SURVIVED?

    Talking about HBD, I am surprised that this big news is not being discussed much.

    The Judaists claim that “we are all the same”, call race a social construct, support BLM, but then claim THEY are the smartest people on earth.

    Their Jewish media constantly pumps HBD King, Einstein, as being the smartest man on earth, even though he was a plagiarist.

    Jordan Peterson, an HBD expert, says Judaists are super rich not because they are super crooked, but because they are super smart, compared to super stupid whites.

    But the stupid whites allegedly sent a MAN on the moon, in the 60’s (wink, wink) , and the Chinese sent a rover to the moon in 2019, that sent photos for a few hours and then has not been heard from, but the Israeli beresheet crashed, and did not even land on the moon, despite probably being built with technology stolen from the Americans.

    https://www.space.com/beresheet-moon-crash-engine-glitch.html

    But the stupid whites allegedly sent a MAN on the moon, in the 60’s (wink, wink) , and the Chinese sent a rover to the moon in 2019, that sent photos for a few hours and then has not been heard from, but the Israeli beresheet crashed, and did not even land on the moon, despite probably being built with technology stolen from the Americans.

    One difference is that there are <10 million Israelis, whereas there are over a billion Chinamen and over 300 million Americans.

    A Jewish state of hundreds of millions, let alone over a billion, people would probably be…formidable, to say the least.

    • Replies: @Hyperborean

    One difference is that there are <10 million Israelis, whereas there are over a billion Chinamen and over 300 million Americans.

    A Jewish state of hundreds of millions, let alone over a billion, people would probably be…formidable, to say the least.
     
    Such a state would be 40% Jewish European and 40% Jewish Arab (plus 20% actual Muslim Arabs).
    , @Oleaginous Outrager

    A Jewish state of hundreds of millions, let alone over a billion, people would probably be…formidable, to say the least.
     
    Yeah, it might not even need US military and economic might to prop it up! "Formidable", indeed.
  37. @dfordoom

    China, Japan, Korea still run smooth, while Western Countries are dysfunctional. There is constant lecturing about low birth-rates, yet Japan has the same issues and doesn’t use mass immigration.
     
    Fertility rates in East Asia are even lower than in the West. These high-IQ societies are committing suicide even faster than European countries.

    Maybe high IQ is dysfunctional and culturally destructive?

    Fertility rates in East Asia are even lower than in the West. These high-IQ societies are committing suicide even faster than European countries.

    Maybe high IQ is dysfunctional and culturally destructive?

    American blacks’ fertility rates are below replacement level and so are several South East Asian countries.

    Bangladesh went from around 7.0% TFR to around 2.1% TRF in roughly three decades.

    It seems more probable that modern fertility is more connected to urbanisation, level of education, economic structure, health care, social expectations, female labour participation structure, etc.

    • Replies: @dfordoom

    It seems more probable that modern fertility is more connected to urbanisation, level of education, economic structure, health care, social expectations, female labour participation structure, etc.
     
    Of course. And high IQ societies are especially likely to suffer from those evils.

    But eventually capitalism/liberalism/consumerism/feminism will destroy every society on Earth. Maybe I was exaggerating about high IQ being harmful but it certainly provides no protection whatsoever from the doom that is overtaking humanity.

    To save ourselves we are going to have to reject the false and evil gods of liberalism, capitalism, consumerism, hedonism, LGBT activism, atheism and urbanisation. And especially feminism. But high IQ types are likely to be less willing to take the drastic steps that will be required.

    The problem with a high IQ is that it makes it easier to rationalise belief in crazy ideas.
  38. @Anonymous

    But the stupid whites allegedly sent a MAN on the moon, in the 60’s (wink, wink) , and the Chinese sent a rover to the moon in 2019, that sent photos for a few hours and then has not been heard from, but the Israeli beresheet crashed, and did not even land on the moon, despite probably being built with technology stolen from the Americans.
     
    One difference is that there are <10 million Israelis, whereas there are over a billion Chinamen and over 300 million Americans.

    A Jewish state of hundreds of millions, let alone over a billion, people would probably be...formidable, to say the least.

    One difference is that there are <10 million Israelis, whereas there are over a billion Chinamen and over 300 million Americans.

    A Jewish state of hundreds of millions, let alone over a billion, people would probably be…formidable, to say the least.

    Such a state would be 40% Jewish European and 40% Jewish Arab (plus 20% actual Muslim Arabs).

  39. @DFH
    It's funny how she argues about which intellectual interests make you cool and which make you a nerd like she's still in school.

    And it’s all true because she said so.

  40. @Anonymous

    But the stupid whites allegedly sent a MAN on the moon, in the 60’s (wink, wink) , and the Chinese sent a rover to the moon in 2019, that sent photos for a few hours and then has not been heard from, but the Israeli beresheet crashed, and did not even land on the moon, despite probably being built with technology stolen from the Americans.
     
    One difference is that there are <10 million Israelis, whereas there are over a billion Chinamen and over 300 million Americans.

    A Jewish state of hundreds of millions, let alone over a billion, people would probably be...formidable, to say the least.

    A Jewish state of hundreds of millions, let alone over a billion, people would probably be…formidable, to say the least.

    Yeah, it might not even need US military and economic might to prop it up! “Formidable”, indeed.

    • Replies: @Anonymous

    Yeah, it might not even need US military and economic might to prop it up! “Formidable”, indeed.
     
    >military might

    Oh, my mistake, I hadn't realized that the US military had defeated Arab forces in the 1948, 1967 and 1973 wars.

    >economic might

    The US currently gives ~$3 billion dollars a year to Israel in aid. Israel's GDP is ~$350 billion.

    I do not support the aid program, but it is completely illogical to assert that a source of revenue that is <1% of a country's GDP is propping up that country. (Indeed, this could be construed as an additional argument against US aid to Israel.)

  41. @El Dato
    So, what actually *is* the recipe for winning culture and civilization wars?

    Iron cutlery, horse-mounted mongolian hordes and factories pumping out T-34s?

    At this moment, probably the ability of a civilization to continually create children of at least middling quality in intelligence.

  42. @Hyperborean

    Fertility rates in East Asia are even lower than in the West. These high-IQ societies are committing suicide even faster than European countries.

    Maybe high IQ is dysfunctional and culturally destructive?
     
    American blacks' fertility rates are below replacement level and so are several South East Asian countries.

    Bangladesh went from around 7.0% TFR to around 2.1% TRF in roughly three decades.

    It seems more probable that modern fertility is more connected to urbanisation, level of education, economic structure, health care, social expectations, female labour participation structure, etc.

    It seems more probable that modern fertility is more connected to urbanisation, level of education, economic structure, health care, social expectations, female labour participation structure, etc.

    Of course. And high IQ societies are especially likely to suffer from those evils.

    But eventually capitalism/liberalism/consumerism/feminism will destroy every society on Earth. Maybe I was exaggerating about high IQ being harmful but it certainly provides no protection whatsoever from the doom that is overtaking humanity.

    To save ourselves we are going to have to reject the false and evil gods of liberalism, capitalism, consumerism, hedonism, LGBT activism, atheism and urbanisation. And especially feminism. But high IQ types are likely to be less willing to take the drastic steps that will be required.

    The problem with a high IQ is that it makes it easier to rationalise belief in crazy ideas.

    • Replies: @Archimedes
    I have been thinking a lot about this recently. I am a pretty big racial purist, but I always "Kick the Tires" from time to time. You have to play devil's advocate some times.

    Take the example of Islam vs a country like Brazil. Brazil is a pretty heavily race mixed country. It's lower IQ and it's really corrupt. But it would be a lot harder for Islamists to break a country like Brazil than a country like Sweden, France, or UK. When you give up something: IQ you get something back like defense against invaders.

    The microcosm even exists inside Europe. We know the more Slavic/Asia ad mixes like Italy, Greece, Poland, Hungary, etc are resistant to mass migration, while at the same time being lower IQ. So you are correct, there is something to diversity being a strength.

    Race mixing may in fact be necessary at some point.

  43. @Anonymous
    My impression of the country is admittedly largely based on 4chan, but I'd have to agree: Finland is an unusual country and not really representative of much. High IQ, geographic isolation from the rest of Europe and a unique language (yes I'm aware that Finns also speak excellent English, I know them from 4chan remember) are probably all contributing factors.

    Other posters have made this point, but simplified notions of HBD are already widespread and used frequently by individuals in their day to day lives. In countries that are still relatively homogeneous (like Finland) you can probably use a toned-down version of these ideas as the basis of a political platform. But in America I think the implications are too broad and ugly and tragic for such ideas to ever truly go mainstream. Yes I've heard the analogies with height, but imo height is a trivial characteristic as compared to cognitive ability. In a multicultural society you can't officially acknowledge a group of people--who have class consciousness by the way--as a permanent underclass, which is what HBD does. To the contrary, a certain level of enforced politeness is probably required.

    Finnish are a little unusual but I didn’t find them to be aliens or anything. My experience though was that even their liberals often had what we’d consider as nationalistic inclinations: e.g. being very pro-Sami, but anti-Islamic.

    • Replies: @Hyperborean

    Finnish are a little unusual but I didn’t find them to be aliens or anything. My experience though was that even their liberals often had what we’d consider as nationalistic inclinations: e.g. being very pro-Sami, but anti-Islamic.
     
    Finland is not really different culturally from other austere Lutheran parts of Northern Europe, the distinction is that the pro-Soviet opportunists who ruled during the Cold War lept the country more isolated from American influence until they turned sides with the collapse of the USSR.

    Although I don't take it too seriously, I find it interesting that during an article announcing the commencement of the Winter War to Japanese readers on the 1st of December 1939 the Tokyo Nichinichi Shinbun praised the Finnish as "essentially Asians" and "Europeanized yellow people" who "are similar in character to Japanese".

  44. @dfordoom

    China, Japan, Korea still run smooth, while Western Countries are dysfunctional. There is constant lecturing about low birth-rates, yet Japan has the same issues and doesn’t use mass immigration.
     
    Fertility rates in East Asia are even lower than in the West. These high-IQ societies are committing suicide even faster than European countries.

    Maybe high IQ is dysfunctional and culturally destructive?

    Maybe high IQ is dysfunctional and culturally destructive?

    Dostoevsky would almost certainly agree. A little bit of irrational madness is probably ideal.

    “If someone proved to me that Christ is outside the truth and that in reality the truth were outside of Christ, then I should prefer to remain with Christ rather than with the truth.”

  45. @Daniel Chieh
    Finnish are a little unusual but I didn't find them to be aliens or anything. My experience though was that even their liberals often had what we'd consider as nationalistic inclinations: e.g. being very pro-Sami, but anti-Islamic.

    Finnish are a little unusual but I didn’t find them to be aliens or anything. My experience though was that even their liberals often had what we’d consider as nationalistic inclinations: e.g. being very pro-Sami, but anti-Islamic.

    Finland is not really different culturally from other austere Lutheran parts of Northern Europe, the distinction is that the pro-Soviet opportunists who ruled during the Cold War lept the country more isolated from American influence until they turned sides with the collapse of the USSR.

    Although I don’t take it too seriously, I find it interesting that during an article announcing the commencement of the Winter War to Japanese readers on the 1st of December 1939 the Tokyo Nichinichi Shinbun praised the Finnish as “essentially Asians” and “Europeanized yellow people” who “are similar in character to Japanese”.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh

    Although I don’t take it too seriously, I find it interesting that during an article announcing the commencement of the Winter War to Japanese readers on the 1st of December 1939 the Tokyo Nichinichi Shinbun praised the Finnish as “essentially Asians” and “Europeanized yellow people” who “are similar in character to Japanese”.

     

    I mean, I can see where he was coming from. The Finnish do give off the feeling of being unusually collectivistic for Europeans and have a certain charming reticence that I felt as familiar. At its downside, though, it certainly did feel like it could easily slip into a very lonely existence once loosened from traditional bonds of religion or mutual association, something which afflicts East Asia as well. The constant darkness certainly doesn't help and Helsinki was once the suicide capital of Europe.

    Now, apparently, the happiest country in Europe.

    https://www.financialexpress.com/lifestyle/finlands-amazing-turnaround-from-suicide-hotspot-to-worlds-happiest-country/1547185/
    , @Jaakko Raipala
    That's the Ural-Altaic theory. Back in the early days of linguistics, it was widely believed that Finno-Ugric, Turkic, Mongolic, Korean and Japanese are a language family and it was taken for granted by many that language = ethnicity = blood so we were supposed to make one race as well.

    This was before photography had become really common so it wasn't actually widely known that we don't really look alike. 19th century Finns tended to consider themselves Asians and it was a pretty big disappointment to many when people started going to Mongolia to find out that we actually resemble Swedes and Russians much more.

    The idea of a Ural-Altaic language family has pretty much died too because it was based on circumstancial evidence (eg these languages are all agglutinative unlike the neighboring Indo-European, Chinese and Semitic languages and at first those were the well understood language so agglutination seemed like a strange and unusual feature - but then as more languages were studied it was found out that agglutinative languages are actually common everywhere in the world).
    , @melanf

    Although I don’t take it too seriously, I find it interesting that during an article announcing the commencement of the Winter War to Japanese readers on the 1st of December 1939 the Tokyo Nichinichi Shinbun praised the Finnish as “essentially Asians” and “Europeanized yellow people”
     
    In one novel of the Norwegian author of detective Jo Nesbø, the main character (Norwegian) mistakenly takes the Finn for Chinese. After all, the Finns and Chinese are so similar :)

    It's an old and incredibly tenacious legend. This is despite the fact that an ordinary person (not an anthropologist) will not be able to distinguish the Finns from the Swedes or Norwegians, even a large sample of people

    https://a.radikal.ru/a20/1904/71/735b7556ec38.jpg

    https://c.radikal.ru/c32/1904/47/94875d705a22.jpg

  46. Anonymous[679] • Disclaimer says:
    @Oleaginous Outrager

    A Jewish state of hundreds of millions, let alone over a billion, people would probably be…formidable, to say the least.
     
    Yeah, it might not even need US military and economic might to prop it up! "Formidable", indeed.

    Yeah, it might not even need US military and economic might to prop it up! “Formidable”, indeed.

    >military might

    Oh, my mistake, I hadn’t realized that the US military had defeated Arab forces in the 1948, 1967 and 1973 wars.

    >economic might

    The US currently gives ~$3 billion dollars a year to Israel in aid. Israel’s GDP is ~$350 billion.

    I do not support the aid program, but it is completely illogical to assert that a source of revenue that is <1% of a country's GDP is propping up that country. (Indeed, this could be construed as an additional argument against US aid to Israel.)

    • Replies: @Oleaginous Outrager

    Oh, my mistake, I hadn’t realized that the US military had defeated Arab forces in the 1948, 1967 and 1973 wars.
     
    Did it with homemade weapons, did they? No support at all from the US.

    The US currently gives ~$3 billion dollars a year to Israel in aid. Israel’s GDP is ~$350 billion.
     
    Three billion to a country of only 8.7 million. I guess crime stat denialists aren't the only ones who hate those two terrible words, "per capita".

    https://ifamericaknew.org/stat/cost.html

    "GDP" is a joke stat.
  47. @Hyperborean

    Finnish are a little unusual but I didn’t find them to be aliens or anything. My experience though was that even their liberals often had what we’d consider as nationalistic inclinations: e.g. being very pro-Sami, but anti-Islamic.
     
    Finland is not really different culturally from other austere Lutheran parts of Northern Europe, the distinction is that the pro-Soviet opportunists who ruled during the Cold War lept the country more isolated from American influence until they turned sides with the collapse of the USSR.

    Although I don't take it too seriously, I find it interesting that during an article announcing the commencement of the Winter War to Japanese readers on the 1st of December 1939 the Tokyo Nichinichi Shinbun praised the Finnish as "essentially Asians" and "Europeanized yellow people" who "are similar in character to Japanese".

    Although I don’t take it too seriously, I find it interesting that during an article announcing the commencement of the Winter War to Japanese readers on the 1st of December 1939 the Tokyo Nichinichi Shinbun praised the Finnish as “essentially Asians” and “Europeanized yellow people” who “are similar in character to Japanese”.

    I mean, I can see where he was coming from. The Finnish do give off the feeling of being unusually collectivistic for Europeans and have a certain charming reticence that I felt as familiar. At its downside, though, it certainly did feel like it could easily slip into a very lonely existence once loosened from traditional bonds of religion or mutual association, something which afflicts East Asia as well. The constant darkness certainly doesn’t help and Helsinki was once the suicide capital of Europe.

    Now, apparently, the happiest country in Europe.

    https://www.financialexpress.com/lifestyle/finlands-amazing-turnaround-from-suicide-hotspot-to-worlds-happiest-country/1547185/

  48. How explicit were Halla-aho’s writing? Sarrazin-tier?

  49. @dfordoom

    What are you talking about? 17.5 % is a strong result in these elections. The largest party are the Social Democrats with 17.7 % of the vote and the second largest is the Finns party with 17.5 % of the vote.
     
    Doesn't that actually mean that there is not a single party that enjoys any kind of widespread support? That all the parties are in fact equally disliked?

    There seems to be an astonishing amount of wishful thinking on the part of anti-immigrationists, nationalists, etc.

    Another way of looking at it is that the anti-immigration party got 17.5 % of the vote, and the pro-immigration parties got 82.5%.

    Dude, what is your problem? You kept saying that people won’t vote for honesty about HBD and that it should be avoided in favor of some other argument against immigration because HBD is bad, bad, bad with the voters. Yet here we have a party leader who refers to Rushton’s data in his arguments which alienated half the party elites who split off to form a new cuck party – but the voters didn’t care at all and they returned the party to its original size.

    But I suppose you think the anti-immigration party would have scored over 50 % if only they had only spoken about OUR WESTERN VALUES or some other milquetoast “palatable” stuff.

    • Replies: @dfordoom

    But I suppose you think the anti-immigration party would have scored over 50 % if only they had only spoken about OUR WESTERN VALUES or some other milquetoast “palatable” stuff.
     
    You could look at the example of Trump. Trump didn't get elected because he promised to build an anti-Mexican wall. He got elected because people thought that if he won that U.S. manufacturing industry would come back. They thought the factories were going to re-open. They thought they were going to have hope for a future again.

    He won by moving well to the economic left in his campaign. And by stressing economic nationalism. He won by sounding much more left-wing than Hillary Clinton.

    Of course it was all lies but he certainly demonstrated a way to win elections.
  50. but the voters didn’t care at all and they returned the party to its original size.

    82.5% of the voters voted against his party, and presumably against his anti-immigration policies. So I’m still struggling to see this as a triumph.

    Full-on nationalist parties everywhere seem to hit a ceiling at around 20%. Which means the other parties can easily combine to lock them out of any share of power. That’s a major major problem. Most voters just don’t seem to be interested in a nationalist anti-immigration message.

    I think that if you want to achieve actual power it’s fairly obvious that you have to offer more than nationalist and anti-immigration rhetoric. But if you’re happy with 17.5% of the vote and permanent political irrelevance that’s cool. I’d rather have actual power.

    • Replies: @Jaakko Raipala
    You're switching your claim after you've been proven wrong. Your original claim was that HBD has to be avoided because it's a vote loser compared to some other "palatable" anti-immigration rhetoric.

    The Finns party has pretty much no other major issue or unity except anti-immigration. The other parties do. In polls, the vast majority of people are consistently against Third World mass immigration but they don't consider it important enough to switch parties. It is not true that 80 % of people are voting for pro-immigration, it just means a lot of people are still neutral on immigration.

    That means things have to get worse before they can go better (people have to feel the pain before they switch behavior) but the pro-immigrationists have no voter base, it's all based on elite capture of parties.
    , @AaronB
    Part of the problem is that this dumb nationalist couldn't even do nationalism right - instead of inspiring his people with a vision of Finnish superiority, he gives them "realistic" Rushton HBD data and tells them Asians are superior. He then cherry picks data and claims this is proved by superior Asian economic performance in the West - ignoring that Western countries outperform Asian countries economically.

    In other words, like all white HBD idiots, he does not seek to inspire his people with a vision of their excellence - but, oddly, actually cherry picks data to avoid presenting them in the best light possible.

    In short, his message can be summed up as "pragmatism" - pointing out the negative effects of immigration. Apparently, pragmatism seems inspiring to no more than 20% of people. They will never understand that people need more than pragmatism. They are all German_Readers.

    Worse, when it isn't about pragmatism, its an extension of cuckery in a more subtle form. Hopeless.

    You are right - this kind of boneheaded nationalism is not going to ever take wing and soar. 20% cap seems generous.

    The Revolution will eventually come from above - men with proper self-respect and an inspiring message that goes beyond pragmatism. Men born and bred to leadership and accustomed to high status, capable of seeing beyond material concerns. Thus far we are seeing a movement from below - men from socially backward classes who by chance are more clever than the rest. They are ruled by material concerns, and have never learned what self respect means.
  51. @Hyperborean

    Finnish are a little unusual but I didn’t find them to be aliens or anything. My experience though was that even their liberals often had what we’d consider as nationalistic inclinations: e.g. being very pro-Sami, but anti-Islamic.
     
    Finland is not really different culturally from other austere Lutheran parts of Northern Europe, the distinction is that the pro-Soviet opportunists who ruled during the Cold War lept the country more isolated from American influence until they turned sides with the collapse of the USSR.

    Although I don't take it too seriously, I find it interesting that during an article announcing the commencement of the Winter War to Japanese readers on the 1st of December 1939 the Tokyo Nichinichi Shinbun praised the Finnish as "essentially Asians" and "Europeanized yellow people" who "are similar in character to Japanese".

    That’s the Ural-Altaic theory. Back in the early days of linguistics, it was widely believed that Finno-Ugric, Turkic, Mongolic, Korean and Japanese are a language family and it was taken for granted by many that language = ethnicity = blood so we were supposed to make one race as well.

    This was before photography had become really common so it wasn’t actually widely known that we don’t really look alike. 19th century Finns tended to consider themselves Asians and it was a pretty big disappointment to many when people started going to Mongolia to find out that we actually resemble Swedes and Russians much more.

    The idea of a Ural-Altaic language family has pretty much died too because it was based on circumstancial evidence (eg these languages are all agglutinative unlike the neighboring Indo-European, Chinese and Semitic languages and at first those were the well understood language so agglutination seemed like a strange and unusual feature – but then as more languages were studied it was found out that agglutinative languages are actually common everywhere in the world).

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    In the genetic maps, you can see genetic connection of Finnish nationality, even people like Mari people.

    For example, there is genetic connection to the maps of Finnish people, to Yoshkar-Ola (which was highlighting yellow to Finnish people, in the red to green genetic maps). Which is quite ridiculous, when you can consider the extent of differences of their life to the people of Helsinki.

  52. @dfordoom

    but the voters didn’t care at all and they returned the party to its original size.
     
    82.5% of the voters voted against his party, and presumably against his anti-immigration policies. So I'm still struggling to see this as a triumph.

    Full-on nationalist parties everywhere seem to hit a ceiling at around 20%. Which means the other parties can easily combine to lock them out of any share of power. That's a major major problem. Most voters just don't seem to be interested in a nationalist anti-immigration message.

    I think that if you want to achieve actual power it's fairly obvious that you have to offer more than nationalist and anti-immigration rhetoric. But if you're happy with 17.5% of the vote and permanent political irrelevance that's cool. I'd rather have actual power.

    You’re switching your claim after you’ve been proven wrong. Your original claim was that HBD has to be avoided because it’s a vote loser compared to some other “palatable” anti-immigration rhetoric.

    The Finns party has pretty much no other major issue or unity except anti-immigration. The other parties do. In polls, the vast majority of people are consistently against Third World mass immigration but they don’t consider it important enough to switch parties. It is not true that 80 % of people are voting for pro-immigration, it just means a lot of people are still neutral on immigration.

    That means things have to get worse before they can go better (people have to feel the pain before they switch behavior) but the pro-immigrationists have no voter base, it’s all based on elite capture of parties.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    Realize that many people want different things, even while they agree on the topic of anti-immigration.

    Everyone (well, maybe 80% of people), opposes current stream of third-world immigration to first and second world countries. But precisely because anti-immigration views are such a consensus, our shared view on this topic does not necessarily imply commonality on other issues.

    Dfordoom, for example, wants social conservatism. His dream is for a country with more stable marriages, less divorces and less abortions. So it's not surprising that focus on "IQ scores" of immigrants, is not very interesting for him.

    On the other hand, I prefer to live in society with more intelligent people, so although I do not see "IQ tests" as serious, I would much prefer that immigration will be only of people who can at least discuss in an academic way. (You only need to read the comments on Unz, to know how offensive and spiritually depressing too much exposure to "low IQ populations" can be).

    I would of course prefer to live in a country of intelligent divorced people, than country of stupid people with stable marriages, while Dfordoom probably would choose the opposite to me.

    Another divergent example is Karlin, who is some kind of "techno-nationalist" liberal, that loves gadgets and technology, and knows this will not be helped by a country flooded with "low IQ immigration". Well the attraction of national IQ test score differences, is very clear for this ideology - but Karlin's viewpoint will not attract or persuade many luddites and rednecks.


    The Finns party has pretty much no other major issue or unity except anti-immigration.
     
    The "IQ test score" perspective, will be particularly useful for Finland, as a country which relies on a hi-tech economy, and which is most proud and self-promoted for having the "best education system in the world". In this case, "IQ test scores" discussion could shift focus to more selective immigration for Finland, as this will match industrial needs and self-perception of Finland's unique strength (education).

    But in other, larger countries, where not educated immigrants are imported precisely to clean roads and cheap construction - then attention to the low IQ test scores of the immigrants, would not necessarily change the current rationale for their immigration.

  53. @Jaakko Raipala
    Dude, what is your problem? You kept saying that people won't vote for honesty about HBD and that it should be avoided in favor of some other argument against immigration because HBD is bad, bad, bad with the voters. Yet here we have a party leader who refers to Rushton's data in his arguments which alienated half the party elites who split off to form a new cuck party - but the voters didn't care at all and they returned the party to its original size.

    But I suppose you think the anti-immigration party would have scored over 50 % if only they had only spoken about OUR WESTERN VALUES or some other milquetoast "palatable" stuff.

    But I suppose you think the anti-immigration party would have scored over 50 % if only they had only spoken about OUR WESTERN VALUES or some other milquetoast “palatable” stuff.

    You could look at the example of Trump. Trump didn’t get elected because he promised to build an anti-Mexican wall. He got elected because people thought that if he won that U.S. manufacturing industry would come back. They thought the factories were going to re-open. They thought they were going to have hope for a future again.

    He won by moving well to the economic left in his campaign. And by stressing economic nationalism. He won by sounding much more left-wing than Hillary Clinton.

    Of course it was all lies but he certainly demonstrated a way to win elections.

  54. @Hyperborean

    Finnish are a little unusual but I didn’t find them to be aliens or anything. My experience though was that even their liberals often had what we’d consider as nationalistic inclinations: e.g. being very pro-Sami, but anti-Islamic.
     
    Finland is not really different culturally from other austere Lutheran parts of Northern Europe, the distinction is that the pro-Soviet opportunists who ruled during the Cold War lept the country more isolated from American influence until they turned sides with the collapse of the USSR.

    Although I don't take it too seriously, I find it interesting that during an article announcing the commencement of the Winter War to Japanese readers on the 1st of December 1939 the Tokyo Nichinichi Shinbun praised the Finnish as "essentially Asians" and "Europeanized yellow people" who "are similar in character to Japanese".

    Although I don’t take it too seriously, I find it interesting that during an article announcing the commencement of the Winter War to Japanese readers on the 1st of December 1939 the Tokyo Nichinichi Shinbun praised the Finnish as “essentially Asians” and “Europeanized yellow people”

    In one novel of the Norwegian author of detective Jo Nesbø, the main character (Norwegian) mistakenly takes the Finn for Chinese. After all, the Finns and Chinese are so similar 🙂

    It’s an old and incredibly tenacious legend. This is despite the fact that an ordinary person (not an anthropologist) will not be able to distinguish the Finns from the Swedes or Norwegians, even a large sample of people

  55. @dfordoom

    but the voters didn’t care at all and they returned the party to its original size.
     
    82.5% of the voters voted against his party, and presumably against his anti-immigration policies. So I'm still struggling to see this as a triumph.

    Full-on nationalist parties everywhere seem to hit a ceiling at around 20%. Which means the other parties can easily combine to lock them out of any share of power. That's a major major problem. Most voters just don't seem to be interested in a nationalist anti-immigration message.

    I think that if you want to achieve actual power it's fairly obvious that you have to offer more than nationalist and anti-immigration rhetoric. But if you're happy with 17.5% of the vote and permanent political irrelevance that's cool. I'd rather have actual power.

    Part of the problem is that this dumb nationalist couldn’t even do nationalism right – instead of inspiring his people with a vision of Finnish superiority, he gives them “realistic” Rushton HBD data and tells them Asians are superior. He then cherry picks data and claims this is proved by superior Asian economic performance in the West – ignoring that Western countries outperform Asian countries economically.

    In other words, like all white HBD idiots, he does not seek to inspire his people with a vision of their excellence – but, oddly, actually cherry picks data to avoid presenting them in the best light possible.

    In short, his message can be summed up as “pragmatism” – pointing out the negative effects of immigration. Apparently, pragmatism seems inspiring to no more than 20% of people. They will never understand that people need more than pragmatism. They are all German_Readers.

    Worse, when it isn’t about pragmatism, its an extension of cuckery in a more subtle form. Hopeless.

    You are right – this kind of boneheaded nationalism is not going to ever take wing and soar. 20% cap seems generous.

    The Revolution will eventually come from above – men with proper self-respect and an inspiring message that goes beyond pragmatism. Men born and bred to leadership and accustomed to high status, capable of seeing beyond material concerns. Thus far we are seeing a movement from below – men from socially backward classes who by chance are more clever than the rest. They are ruled by material concerns, and have never learned what self respect means.

    • Replies: @Hyperborean

    Part of the problem is that this dumb nationalist couldn’t even do nationalism right – instead of inspiring his people with a vision of Finnish superiority, he gives them “realistic” Rushton HBD data and tells them Asians are superior. He then cherry picks data and claims this is proved by superior Asian economic performance in the West – ignoring that Western countries outperform Asian countries economically.
     
    There aren’t enough East Asians in Europe for people to care about that.
    , @Hyperborean

    But at the very least, inspirational nationalism should seek to present your nation in the best possible light – not actually cherry pick data that is less favorable than what is available. That’s refined cuckery.
     
    So you would approve of someone like Baudet then?

    So we stand here tonight, at the eleventh hour, quite literally. We stand among the rubble of what was once the greatest and most beautiful civilization the world has ever known, a civilization that reached to the far corners of the Earth, filled with self-confidence. This civilization produced the most beautiful architecture, the greatest music, and the best art that has ever existed under the stars. Our nation is part of that great civilization.

    [...]

    But, we have been called to the front. Because we must. Because our country needs us. And we, dear friends, we are the product of three hundred thousand years of evolution. We survived the ice ages, we have slain mammoths. We are the carriers and inheritors of the greatest civilization that has ever existed. We carry in us a unique power, and a few decades of indoctrination by the media and the schools can never bury that. What is inside us can never be taken away. And today, you can feel it in this hall. Today we have chosen to fight! To dream again, to hope again, to fight again. If I look back at the last three years, this is the feeling that I have most deeply: that we have achieved something together, the desire to rebuild, to have a go at the world again, together. A belief in the future. And for that, I want to thank you all.
     
    https://www.counter-currents.com/2019/03/populism-triumphs-in-the-netherlands/
    , @Jaakko Raipala
    Just about nothing would be less popular here than a message of "racial supremacy". The entire ethnic Finnish national project was about proving Aryan racial supremacists wrong and following examples like Japan to prove that non-Aryan peoples can form successful modern nations. Ethnonationalistic Finns tend to remember the long struggle against Germanic tyrants and their revolting racial supremacist ideologies.

    Of course, that means that Finns are very vulnerable to identifying with commie "hero of oppressed people" icons like Nelson Mandela etc since we were always oh so similarly oppressed. Eg. Irish nationalism has the same big problem of identifying more with the oppressed colonized people of color rather than evil Germanic colonizers. But a good side of it is that it's hard to promote "white guilt" ideas here. Finland is as much of a colonized society as any place in Africa so those people have no excuse.

    All European great powers tended to support the rule of Germanic tyrants. Of great powers around WWI era only Japan was on our side. Why would some message of white superiority over Asians even be popular when European powers have generally been terrible towards us but Asian powers have been neutral or supportive?

  56. @AaronB
    Part of the problem is that this dumb nationalist couldn't even do nationalism right - instead of inspiring his people with a vision of Finnish superiority, he gives them "realistic" Rushton HBD data and tells them Asians are superior. He then cherry picks data and claims this is proved by superior Asian economic performance in the West - ignoring that Western countries outperform Asian countries economically.

    In other words, like all white HBD idiots, he does not seek to inspire his people with a vision of their excellence - but, oddly, actually cherry picks data to avoid presenting them in the best light possible.

    In short, his message can be summed up as "pragmatism" - pointing out the negative effects of immigration. Apparently, pragmatism seems inspiring to no more than 20% of people. They will never understand that people need more than pragmatism. They are all German_Readers.

    Worse, when it isn't about pragmatism, its an extension of cuckery in a more subtle form. Hopeless.

    You are right - this kind of boneheaded nationalism is not going to ever take wing and soar. 20% cap seems generous.

    The Revolution will eventually come from above - men with proper self-respect and an inspiring message that goes beyond pragmatism. Men born and bred to leadership and accustomed to high status, capable of seeing beyond material concerns. Thus far we are seeing a movement from below - men from socially backward classes who by chance are more clever than the rest. They are ruled by material concerns, and have never learned what self respect means.

    Part of the problem is that this dumb nationalist couldn’t even do nationalism right – instead of inspiring his people with a vision of Finnish superiority, he gives them “realistic” Rushton HBD data and tells them Asians are superior. He then cherry picks data and claims this is proved by superior Asian economic performance in the West – ignoring that Western countries outperform Asian countries economically.

    There aren’t enough East Asians in Europe for people to care about that.

    • Replies: @AaronB
    That's not the point.

    Point is, pragmatic nationalism won't work with more than a minority. Inspirational nationalism is what will have a chance to replace inspirational globalism.

    It obviously cannot be the aggressive brand of nationalism we had during the last round - that is negative inspiration, and while powerful, is self-destructive.

    But at the very least, inspirational nationalism should seek to present your nation in the best possible light - not actually cherry pick data that is less favorable than what is available. That's refined cuckery.

    These principles are not understood by men who are marked from early childhood with social inferiority. That's why revolutions must come from a splinter sect that breaks off from the elite - such men understand leadership and how to inspire, and the basic tenets of self respect.
    , @Hyperborean
    I think you also missed Raipala's explanation that HBD is only a small part of his writings and mainly became an issue because of the liberal media and cucks kept hyping it.
  57. @Hyperborean

    Part of the problem is that this dumb nationalist couldn’t even do nationalism right – instead of inspiring his people with a vision of Finnish superiority, he gives them “realistic” Rushton HBD data and tells them Asians are superior. He then cherry picks data and claims this is proved by superior Asian economic performance in the West – ignoring that Western countries outperform Asian countries economically.
     
    There aren’t enough East Asians in Europe for people to care about that.

    That’s not the point.

    Point is, pragmatic nationalism won’t work with more than a minority. Inspirational nationalism is what will have a chance to replace inspirational globalism.

    It obviously cannot be the aggressive brand of nationalism we had during the last round – that is negative inspiration, and while powerful, is self-destructive.

    But at the very least, inspirational nationalism should seek to present your nation in the best possible light – not actually cherry pick data that is less favorable than what is available. That’s refined cuckery.

    These principles are not understood by men who are marked from early childhood with social inferiority. That’s why revolutions must come from a splinter sect that breaks off from the elite – such men understand leadership and how to inspire, and the basic tenets of self respect.

    • Replies: @dfordoom

    Inspirational nationalism is what will have a chance to replace inspirational globalism.
     
    Yep. Globalism, like earlier inspirational ideologies such as communism, offers people something worth struggling for. Maybe even worth dying for.

    Is anyone going to be willing to die for HBD?
  58. @Hyperborean

    Part of the problem is that this dumb nationalist couldn’t even do nationalism right – instead of inspiring his people with a vision of Finnish superiority, he gives them “realistic” Rushton HBD data and tells them Asians are superior. He then cherry picks data and claims this is proved by superior Asian economic performance in the West – ignoring that Western countries outperform Asian countries economically.
     
    There aren’t enough East Asians in Europe for people to care about that.

    I think you also missed Raipala’s explanation that HBD is only a small part of his writings and mainly became an issue because of the liberal media and cucks kept hyping it.

    • Replies: @AaronB
    That's negative confirmation - some HBD will not kill your political chances in Finland, apparently. It isn't positive confirmation. It seems he was not 'about' HBD.
  59. @AaronB
    Part of the problem is that this dumb nationalist couldn't even do nationalism right - instead of inspiring his people with a vision of Finnish superiority, he gives them "realistic" Rushton HBD data and tells them Asians are superior. He then cherry picks data and claims this is proved by superior Asian economic performance in the West - ignoring that Western countries outperform Asian countries economically.

    In other words, like all white HBD idiots, he does not seek to inspire his people with a vision of their excellence - but, oddly, actually cherry picks data to avoid presenting them in the best light possible.

    In short, his message can be summed up as "pragmatism" - pointing out the negative effects of immigration. Apparently, pragmatism seems inspiring to no more than 20% of people. They will never understand that people need more than pragmatism. They are all German_Readers.

    Worse, when it isn't about pragmatism, its an extension of cuckery in a more subtle form. Hopeless.

    You are right - this kind of boneheaded nationalism is not going to ever take wing and soar. 20% cap seems generous.

    The Revolution will eventually come from above - men with proper self-respect and an inspiring message that goes beyond pragmatism. Men born and bred to leadership and accustomed to high status, capable of seeing beyond material concerns. Thus far we are seeing a movement from below - men from socially backward classes who by chance are more clever than the rest. They are ruled by material concerns, and have never learned what self respect means.

    But at the very least, inspirational nationalism should seek to present your nation in the best possible light – not actually cherry pick data that is less favorable than what is available. That’s refined cuckery.

    So you would approve of someone like Baudet then?

    So we stand here tonight, at the eleventh hour, quite literally. We stand among the rubble of what was once the greatest and most beautiful civilization the world has ever known, a civilization that reached to the far corners of the Earth, filled with self-confidence. This civilization produced the most beautiful architecture, the greatest music, and the best art that has ever existed under the stars. Our nation is part of that great civilization.

    […]

    But, we have been called to the front. Because we must. Because our country needs us. And we, dear friends, we are the product of three hundred thousand years of evolution. We survived the ice ages, we have slain mammoths. We are the carriers and inheritors of the greatest civilization that has ever existed. We carry in us a unique power, and a few decades of indoctrination by the media and the schools can never bury that. What is inside us can never be taken away. And today, you can feel it in this hall. Today we have chosen to fight! To dream again, to hope again, to fight again. If I look back at the last three years, this is the feeling that I have most deeply: that we have achieved something together, the desire to rebuild, to have a go at the world again, together. A belief in the future. And for that, I want to thank you all.

    https://www.counter-currents.com/2019/03/populism-triumphs-in-the-netherlands/

    • Replies: @AaronB
    Sort of.

    Problems with it, but its a start.
  60. @Hyperborean
    I think you also missed Raipala's explanation that HBD is only a small part of his writings and mainly became an issue because of the liberal media and cucks kept hyping it.

    That’s negative confirmation – some HBD will not kill your political chances in Finland, apparently. It isn’t positive confirmation. It seems he was not ‘about’ HBD.

  61. @dfordoom

    It seems more probable that modern fertility is more connected to urbanisation, level of education, economic structure, health care, social expectations, female labour participation structure, etc.
     
    Of course. And high IQ societies are especially likely to suffer from those evils.

    But eventually capitalism/liberalism/consumerism/feminism will destroy every society on Earth. Maybe I was exaggerating about high IQ being harmful but it certainly provides no protection whatsoever from the doom that is overtaking humanity.

    To save ourselves we are going to have to reject the false and evil gods of liberalism, capitalism, consumerism, hedonism, LGBT activism, atheism and urbanisation. And especially feminism. But high IQ types are likely to be less willing to take the drastic steps that will be required.

    The problem with a high IQ is that it makes it easier to rationalise belief in crazy ideas.

    I have been thinking a lot about this recently. I am a pretty big racial purist, but I always “Kick the Tires” from time to time. You have to play devil’s advocate some times.

    Take the example of Islam vs a country like Brazil. Brazil is a pretty heavily race mixed country. It’s lower IQ and it’s really corrupt. But it would be a lot harder for Islamists to break a country like Brazil than a country like Sweden, France, or UK. When you give up something: IQ you get something back like defense against invaders.

    The microcosm even exists inside Europe. We know the more Slavic/Asia ad mixes like Italy, Greece, Poland, Hungary, etc are resistant to mass migration, while at the same time being lower IQ. So you are correct, there is something to diversity being a strength.

    Race mixing may in fact be necessary at some point.

    • Replies: @AaronB
    It has nothing to do with IQ (intelligence). It has to do with intellectualism. No other people are as intellectual as whites - this level of abstraction disconnects you from your instincts and tradition = unhealthy and stupid.

    Whites need to become stupider to become more intelligent.
    , @notanon

    We know the more Slavic/Asia ad mixes like Italy, Greece, Poland, Hungary, etc are resistant to mass migration ...snip... Race mixing may in fact be necessary at some point.
     
    other way round, NW Europe is more out-bred due to church ban on cousin marriage being followed more strictly

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hajnal_line
    , @Dmitry
    Why do you think that Brazil would be more resistant to Islam, than the UK?

    In general, Islam is a religion designed by, and attractive only to, very stupid people. Even for people who need religion in their life, Islam is significantly less cognitive and less attractive, than perhaps almost all the other religions which are offered today, whether Hinduism, Scientology or Jehovah's Witnesses.

    UK has more suicidal liberals, but the intelligent subsection of British people (which is a larger subsection than it would be in Brazil or Mexico), will not convert to Islam, except perhaps after certain kinds of brain injury, or an industrial accident causing wide-scale lead poisoning..

    On the other hand, Mexicans could have enough "low IQ scoring people", to have a larger conversion rate to such religions.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SCwVFgQPdVg

    , @Silva
    Brazil will become Evangelical, which isn't meaningfully different from Muslim except for not having a "foreign" tag (nevermind that Protestantism *is* foreign to Brazil).
  62. So the brown SJW wife of “white nationalist” Richard Spencer, had her Facebook comment liked by “academic scam artist” Dugin.

    There is a connection though, because they are both (Spencer and Dugin) mainly promoted and created by liberal American media, as a way to attack Trump.

    Spencer was almost completely created by American liberal media, for the 2016 President’s election. While Dugin has an independent, frauding existence in Russia, but the clown was promoted in America as part of the demonization for Russia, before the Trump-Russia conspiracy theories.

    • Replies: @simple_pseudonymic_handle
    You are three-quarters right.

    Dugin's books are actually pretty interesting even though the people who publicize them appear to have not read them.

    Does he really have a twitter or is that a twitter claiming to be A. D.?

  63. @Archimedes
    I have been thinking a lot about this recently. I am a pretty big racial purist, but I always "Kick the Tires" from time to time. You have to play devil's advocate some times.

    Take the example of Islam vs a country like Brazil. Brazil is a pretty heavily race mixed country. It's lower IQ and it's really corrupt. But it would be a lot harder for Islamists to break a country like Brazil than a country like Sweden, France, or UK. When you give up something: IQ you get something back like defense against invaders.

    The microcosm even exists inside Europe. We know the more Slavic/Asia ad mixes like Italy, Greece, Poland, Hungary, etc are resistant to mass migration, while at the same time being lower IQ. So you are correct, there is something to diversity being a strength.

    Race mixing may in fact be necessary at some point.

    It has nothing to do with IQ (intelligence). It has to do with intellectualism. No other people are as intellectual as whites – this level of abstraction disconnects you from your instincts and tradition = unhealthy and stupid.

    Whites need to become stupider to become more intelligent.

    • Replies: @dfordoom

    It has nothing to do with IQ (intelligence). It has to do with intellectualism. No other people are as intellectual as whites – this level of abstraction disconnects you from your instincts and tradition = unhealthy and stupid.

    Whites need to become stupider to become more intelligent.
     
    Yes.

    A good example of intellectualism in action. Some intellectual comes up with a theory (supported by zero evidence) that humans have something called gender as distinct from biological sex. The theory gets elaborated. Gender can be changed - if a man puts on a dress he becomes a woman. The theory gets further elaborated - there are actually dozens of genders! This is all theory of course but intellectuals love theories and have no interest in reality.

    A non-intellectual on the other hand would say, "That's not a woman. It's just a guy wearing a frock."

    To fight this we need an ideology that is both inspirational and non-intellectual.

    HBD is both intellectual and non-inspirational.
  64. @Hyperborean

    But at the very least, inspirational nationalism should seek to present your nation in the best possible light – not actually cherry pick data that is less favorable than what is available. That’s refined cuckery.
     
    So you would approve of someone like Baudet then?

    So we stand here tonight, at the eleventh hour, quite literally. We stand among the rubble of what was once the greatest and most beautiful civilization the world has ever known, a civilization that reached to the far corners of the Earth, filled with self-confidence. This civilization produced the most beautiful architecture, the greatest music, and the best art that has ever existed under the stars. Our nation is part of that great civilization.

    [...]

    But, we have been called to the front. Because we must. Because our country needs us. And we, dear friends, we are the product of three hundred thousand years of evolution. We survived the ice ages, we have slain mammoths. We are the carriers and inheritors of the greatest civilization that has ever existed. We carry in us a unique power, and a few decades of indoctrination by the media and the schools can never bury that. What is inside us can never be taken away. And today, you can feel it in this hall. Today we have chosen to fight! To dream again, to hope again, to fight again. If I look back at the last three years, this is the feeling that I have most deeply: that we have achieved something together, the desire to rebuild, to have a go at the world again, together. A belief in the future. And for that, I want to thank you all.
     
    https://www.counter-currents.com/2019/03/populism-triumphs-in-the-netherlands/

    Sort of.

    Problems with it, but its a start.

  65. @Archimedes
    I have been thinking a lot about this recently. I am a pretty big racial purist, but I always "Kick the Tires" from time to time. You have to play devil's advocate some times.

    Take the example of Islam vs a country like Brazil. Brazil is a pretty heavily race mixed country. It's lower IQ and it's really corrupt. But it would be a lot harder for Islamists to break a country like Brazil than a country like Sweden, France, or UK. When you give up something: IQ you get something back like defense against invaders.

    The microcosm even exists inside Europe. We know the more Slavic/Asia ad mixes like Italy, Greece, Poland, Hungary, etc are resistant to mass migration, while at the same time being lower IQ. So you are correct, there is something to diversity being a strength.

    Race mixing may in fact be necessary at some point.

    We know the more Slavic/Asia ad mixes like Italy, Greece, Poland, Hungary, etc are resistant to mass migration …snip… Race mixing may in fact be necessary at some point.

    other way round, NW Europe is more out-bred due to church ban on cousin marriage being followed more strictly

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hajnal_line

    • Replies: @Archimedes
    If Islamists are the enemy, and Islamists are mostly Inbred, does that mean that its most optimal to fight them with out-bred people? Or in-bred people?

    This is the quintessential question.
  66. I’m not sure how important Iq is but some on the right appear to have made it the be-all-end-all, as if their opposition to muslim, mexican, and Negro invasion is due primarily to these groups’ average low iqs rather than based on the simple fact that these people are different (not us) and represent a threat to the preservation of people,nation, and race.

    Perhaps this is why alt-righters rarely complain about the East Asian migration into the west because they view them as fellows, civilized and intelligent. Maybe this explains their fetish for Asian women too.

    Iq nationalism ≠ nationalism!

    • Agree: dfordoom
  67. @notanon

    We know the more Slavic/Asia ad mixes like Italy, Greece, Poland, Hungary, etc are resistant to mass migration ...snip... Race mixing may in fact be necessary at some point.
     
    other way round, NW Europe is more out-bred due to church ban on cousin marriage being followed more strictly

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hajnal_line

    If Islamists are the enemy, and Islamists are mostly Inbred, does that mean that its most optimal to fight them with out-bred people? Or in-bred people?

    This is the quintessential question.

    • Replies: @notanon
    there's probably an optimal level of inbreeding vs outbreeding for tribal conflict and southern/eastern euros are probably closer to that optimum imo.
  68. @AaronB
    That's not the point.

    Point is, pragmatic nationalism won't work with more than a minority. Inspirational nationalism is what will have a chance to replace inspirational globalism.

    It obviously cannot be the aggressive brand of nationalism we had during the last round - that is negative inspiration, and while powerful, is self-destructive.

    But at the very least, inspirational nationalism should seek to present your nation in the best possible light - not actually cherry pick data that is less favorable than what is available. That's refined cuckery.

    These principles are not understood by men who are marked from early childhood with social inferiority. That's why revolutions must come from a splinter sect that breaks off from the elite - such men understand leadership and how to inspire, and the basic tenets of self respect.

    Inspirational nationalism is what will have a chance to replace inspirational globalism.

    Yep. Globalism, like earlier inspirational ideologies such as communism, offers people something worth struggling for. Maybe even worth dying for.

    Is anyone going to be willing to die for HBD?

    • Replies: @Archimedes
    I agree no one will be willing to die for HBD. I think the true World Wide threat is Islam. It's an anti-science ideology that will put everyone back in the stone age.

    It's pretty much the only thing that can Unite China, Russia, Latin America, and others. It's a human virus in my opinion.
    , @reiner Tor

    Is anyone going to be willing to die for HBD?
     
    No. Just like no one is going to be willing to die for quantum mechanics or astronomy. That’s a strong argument that, should the media demand that they do it, anti-immigration parties should be running on a geocentric worldview platform.

    HBD is both intellectual and non-inspirational.
     
    Same thing as quantum physics and astronomy. A very strong argument in favor of accepting the geocentric worldview, should the media declare that modern astronomy was literally Nazi.

    Look, HBD is not an ideology or a political platform or anything like that. It’s just part of reality, a scientific truth currently suppressed by our enemies. Is there a single reason to follow the taboos of our enemies, when it clearly leads to no extra political support?
  69. @Jaakko Raipala
    You're switching your claim after you've been proven wrong. Your original claim was that HBD has to be avoided because it's a vote loser compared to some other "palatable" anti-immigration rhetoric.

    The Finns party has pretty much no other major issue or unity except anti-immigration. The other parties do. In polls, the vast majority of people are consistently against Third World mass immigration but they don't consider it important enough to switch parties. It is not true that 80 % of people are voting for pro-immigration, it just means a lot of people are still neutral on immigration.

    That means things have to get worse before they can go better (people have to feel the pain before they switch behavior) but the pro-immigrationists have no voter base, it's all based on elite capture of parties.

    Realize that many people want different things, even while they agree on the topic of anti-immigration.

    Everyone (well, maybe 80% of people), opposes current stream of third-world immigration to first and second world countries. But precisely because anti-immigration views are such a consensus, our shared view on this topic does not necessarily imply commonality on other issues.

    Dfordoom, for example, wants social conservatism. His dream is for a country with more stable marriages, less divorces and less abortions. So it’s not surprising that focus on “IQ scores” of immigrants, is not very interesting for him.

    On the other hand, I prefer to live in society with more intelligent people, so although I do not see “IQ tests” as serious, I would much prefer that immigration will be only of people who can at least discuss in an academic way. (You only need to read the comments on Unz, to know how offensive and spiritually depressing too much exposure to “low IQ populations” can be).

    I would of course prefer to live in a country of intelligent divorced people, than country of stupid people with stable marriages, while Dfordoom probably would choose the opposite to me.

    Another divergent example is Karlin, who is some kind of “techno-nationalist” liberal, that loves gadgets and technology, and knows this will not be helped by a country flooded with “low IQ immigration”. Well the attraction of national IQ test score differences, is very clear for this ideology – but Karlin’s viewpoint will not attract or persuade many luddites and rednecks.

    The Finns party has pretty much no other major issue or unity except anti-immigration.

    The “IQ test score” perspective, will be particularly useful for Finland, as a country which relies on a hi-tech economy, and which is most proud and self-promoted for having the “best education system in the world”. In this case, “IQ test scores” discussion could shift focus to more selective immigration for Finland, as this will match industrial needs and self-perception of Finland’s unique strength (education).

    But in other, larger countries, where not educated immigrants are imported precisely to clean roads and cheap construction – then attention to the low IQ test scores of the immigrants, would not necessarily change the current rationale for their immigration.

    • Replies: @dfordoom

    Everyone (well, maybe 80% of people), opposes current stream of third-world immigration to first and second world countries.
     
    I think that's wildly optimistic. For starters, among white people under 35 support for mass immigration is overwhelming. Among middle-class white people support for mass immigration is overwhelming. Immigration increases GDP which makes middle-class white people richer (at least that's what they believe).

    If immigration really was so unpopular anti-immigration parties would be getting more than 17.5% of the vote.
  70. @dfordoom

    Inspirational nationalism is what will have a chance to replace inspirational globalism.
     
    Yep. Globalism, like earlier inspirational ideologies such as communism, offers people something worth struggling for. Maybe even worth dying for.

    Is anyone going to be willing to die for HBD?

    I agree no one will be willing to die for HBD. I think the true World Wide threat is Islam. It’s an anti-science ideology that will put everyone back in the stone age.

    It’s pretty much the only thing that can Unite China, Russia, Latin America, and others. It’s a human virus in my opinion.

    • Replies: @dfordoom

    I think the true World Wide threat is Islam.
     
    Islam presents zero threat to healthy societies. It is only a threat to diseased, corrupt, decadent societies. If you have a diseased, corrupt, decadent society you're already screwed.

    The true World Wide threat is liberalism which produces diseased, corrupt, decadent societies.

    Eliminate liberalism (and especially feminism) and you won't need to worry about Islam at all. Islam is an imaginary enemy.
  71. @Archimedes
    I have been thinking a lot about this recently. I am a pretty big racial purist, but I always "Kick the Tires" from time to time. You have to play devil's advocate some times.

    Take the example of Islam vs a country like Brazil. Brazil is a pretty heavily race mixed country. It's lower IQ and it's really corrupt. But it would be a lot harder for Islamists to break a country like Brazil than a country like Sweden, France, or UK. When you give up something: IQ you get something back like defense against invaders.

    The microcosm even exists inside Europe. We know the more Slavic/Asia ad mixes like Italy, Greece, Poland, Hungary, etc are resistant to mass migration, while at the same time being lower IQ. So you are correct, there is something to diversity being a strength.

    Race mixing may in fact be necessary at some point.

    Why do you think that Brazil would be more resistant to Islam, than the UK?

    In general, Islam is a religion designed by, and attractive only to, very stupid people. Even for people who need religion in their life, Islam is significantly less cognitive and less attractive, than perhaps almost all the other religions which are offered today, whether Hinduism, Scientology or Jehovah’s Witnesses.

    UK has more suicidal liberals, but the intelligent subsection of British people (which is a larger subsection than it would be in Brazil or Mexico), will not convert to Islam, except perhaps after certain kinds of brain injury, or an industrial accident causing wide-scale lead poisoning..

    On the other hand, Mexicans could have enough “low IQ scoring people”, to have a larger conversion rate to such religions.

    • Replies: @Archimedes
    This is just a thought exercise for me. But I just look at what is going on in North-West Europe and wonder if perhaps some how other parts of the world that are more "blended" might be more resilient.

    The Chinese are a very *Mongrel* people of blended DNA. They seem to be pretty weary of Islam. I am just throwing out topics for discussion, because I think the status quo is just untenable. I am a big believer in HBD, but I see Europe collapsing and think "What should we do?" We can't just go Black Pill.
  72. @Dmitry
    Why do you think that Brazil would be more resistant to Islam, than the UK?

    In general, Islam is a religion designed by, and attractive only to, very stupid people. Even for people who need religion in their life, Islam is significantly less cognitive and less attractive, than perhaps almost all the other religions which are offered today, whether Hinduism, Scientology or Jehovah's Witnesses.

    UK has more suicidal liberals, but the intelligent subsection of British people (which is a larger subsection than it would be in Brazil or Mexico), will not convert to Islam, except perhaps after certain kinds of brain injury, or an industrial accident causing wide-scale lead poisoning..

    On the other hand, Mexicans could have enough "low IQ scoring people", to have a larger conversion rate to such religions.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SCwVFgQPdVg

    This is just a thought exercise for me. But I just look at what is going on in North-West Europe and wonder if perhaps some how other parts of the world that are more “blended” might be more resilient.

    The Chinese are a very *Mongrel* people of blended DNA. They seem to be pretty weary of Islam. I am just throwing out topics for discussion, because I think the status quo is just untenable. I am a big believer in HBD, but I see Europe collapsing and think “What should we do?” We can’t just go Black Pill.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    Settlement of large and not assimilated Muslim populations in their cities, is one of the serious problems which you can see when you are in North-West Europe.

    But Islam operates as a "human capital sink", except in cases where Muslim armies have converted populations by sword.

    In a free market of ideas, Islam generally filtering for the lower human capital in any population. It spreads in prisons in Western Europe, for example. And within the Muslim origin populations in Europe, the higher human capital people who immigrated to Europe from Muslim countries, are moderating and to some extent even secularizing.

    So while Islam has a probably permanent future in North-Western Europe, it is likely to be (unless they will attain political domination, in some Houellebecq nightmare scenario), mostly a future as "a religion of the lowest people within the higher races, or the religion of lower immigrant races in Europe excluding their higher quality people".

    , @Dmitry

    see Europe collapsing
     
    I don't think it is for most countries. Perhaps, only, there is a disaster in the future for France - where the political culture seems mentally ill, in all dimensions.

    But most Western European countries, I do not think are collapsing. They're often improving in most dimensions, in recent years, even despite self-created problems of the acceptance of too much immigration from third-world countries, and of delusional experiments of European Union.

    As for Islam - again, the better quality of people of Muslim origin, are moderating and secularizing. While as a "converting" religion, Islam usually only attracts a lowest quality of human capital of non-Muslim origin. So this is creating future problems, but such dynamics (attracting some losers from other races, while losing the better people in the immigrants' own races) do not seem like it would result in the countries "turning over" to become Muslim. Rather, it presents the problem of adding a permanent Muslim underclass to the society.

  73. @Dmitry
    So the brown SJW wife of "white nationalist" Richard Spencer, had her Facebook comment liked by "academic scam artist" Dugin.

    There is a connection though, because they are both (Spencer and Dugin) mainly promoted and created by liberal American media, as a way to attack Trump.

    Spencer was almost completely created by American liberal media, for the 2016 President's election. While Dugin has an independent, frauding existence in Russia, but the clown was promoted in America as part of the demonization for Russia, before the Trump-Russia conspiracy theories.

    You are three-quarters right.

    Dugin’s books are actually pretty interesting even though the people who publicize them appear to have not read them.

    Does he really have a twitter or is that a twitter claiming to be A. D.?

  74. Every single High-IQ nation is not reproducing at replacement level rates. Why then do these HBDers not ask the question of whether High-IQ is good thing or not? Or rather, if the comforts and luxuries of the modern world are actually destructive?

    • Replies: @dfordoom

    Every single High-IQ nation is not reproducing at replacement level rates. Why then do these HBDers not ask the question of whether High-IQ is good thing or not? Or rather, if the comforts and luxuries of the modern world are actually destructive?
     
    HBDers are like junkies. They don't want to stop taking the drugs that are killing them. The drugs that are killing them are feminism, sexual degeneracy, hedonism, consumerism, technology worship, trash culture, atheism, capitalism. They think they can keep all those things and still have a civilisation.

    They can see society going down the toilet but they refuse to accept that this is happening because their society has become decadent and worthless. So they look for scapegoats. It's the Jews! It's the darkies! It's the Muslims! It's those awful low-IQ people!

    They don't want to face unpleasant realities, such as the fact that people in our society are too selfish to have children, too self-indulgent to make their marriages work, too greedy to do anything to save their own societies. The fault lies within us.
    , @notanon
    we have a hostile elite who want open borders - if we didn't have a hostile elite the high IQ nations would be developing policies to fix the problem.
  75. @Archimedes
    This is just a thought exercise for me. But I just look at what is going on in North-West Europe and wonder if perhaps some how other parts of the world that are more "blended" might be more resilient.

    The Chinese are a very *Mongrel* people of blended DNA. They seem to be pretty weary of Islam. I am just throwing out topics for discussion, because I think the status quo is just untenable. I am a big believer in HBD, but I see Europe collapsing and think "What should we do?" We can't just go Black Pill.

    Settlement of large and not assimilated Muslim populations in their cities, is one of the serious problems which you can see when you are in North-West Europe.

    But Islam operates as a “human capital sink”, except in cases where Muslim armies have converted populations by sword.

    In a free market of ideas, Islam generally filtering for the lower human capital in any population. It spreads in prisons in Western Europe, for example. And within the Muslim origin populations in Europe, the higher human capital people who immigrated to Europe from Muslim countries, are moderating and to some extent even secularizing.

    So while Islam has a probably permanent future in North-Western Europe, it is likely to be (unless they will attain political domination, in some Houellebecq nightmare scenario), mostly a future as “a religion of the lowest people within the higher races, or the religion of lower immigrant races in Europe excluding their higher quality people”.

  76. @AaronB
    Part of the problem is that this dumb nationalist couldn't even do nationalism right - instead of inspiring his people with a vision of Finnish superiority, he gives them "realistic" Rushton HBD data and tells them Asians are superior. He then cherry picks data and claims this is proved by superior Asian economic performance in the West - ignoring that Western countries outperform Asian countries economically.

    In other words, like all white HBD idiots, he does not seek to inspire his people with a vision of their excellence - but, oddly, actually cherry picks data to avoid presenting them in the best light possible.

    In short, his message can be summed up as "pragmatism" - pointing out the negative effects of immigration. Apparently, pragmatism seems inspiring to no more than 20% of people. They will never understand that people need more than pragmatism. They are all German_Readers.

    Worse, when it isn't about pragmatism, its an extension of cuckery in a more subtle form. Hopeless.

    You are right - this kind of boneheaded nationalism is not going to ever take wing and soar. 20% cap seems generous.

    The Revolution will eventually come from above - men with proper self-respect and an inspiring message that goes beyond pragmatism. Men born and bred to leadership and accustomed to high status, capable of seeing beyond material concerns. Thus far we are seeing a movement from below - men from socially backward classes who by chance are more clever than the rest. They are ruled by material concerns, and have never learned what self respect means.

    Just about nothing would be less popular here than a message of “racial supremacy”. The entire ethnic Finnish national project was about proving Aryan racial supremacists wrong and following examples like Japan to prove that non-Aryan peoples can form successful modern nations. Ethnonationalistic Finns tend to remember the long struggle against Germanic tyrants and their revolting racial supremacist ideologies.

    Of course, that means that Finns are very vulnerable to identifying with commie “hero of oppressed people” icons like Nelson Mandela etc since we were always oh so similarly oppressed. Eg. Irish nationalism has the same big problem of identifying more with the oppressed colonized people of color rather than evil Germanic colonizers. But a good side of it is that it’s hard to promote “white guilt” ideas here. Finland is as much of a colonized society as any place in Africa so those people have no excuse.

    All European great powers tended to support the rule of Germanic tyrants. Of great powers around WWI era only Japan was on our side. Why would some message of white superiority over Asians even be popular when European powers have generally been terrible towards us but Asian powers have been neutral or supportive?

    • Replies: @AaronB
    Not necessarily racial supremacy. That has implications of wanting to rule and conquer others and the refusal to see any value in other groups.

    Race is an abstract Enlightenment concept anyways. I am talking about something more earthy and concrete.

    Most groups with a distinct culture quietly view themselves as in some way, often indefinable, as the Earth's premier people. It sounds absurd to us, but even countries with zero tangible reasons to be proud secretly think this way.

    I would argue that some such belief may be essential to group mental health. It seems to function as a kind of robust first-line of psychological defense. The Japanese believe this, the Chinese willingly believe this, beck, the Thais think this about themselves. I've had Mexican friends who patiently explained to me the superior virtues of his countrymen, which no white man could fully comprehend. And the Jews, as we know, certainly believe this.

    Whites, alone, don't. Again, the WEIRD people.

    We need to stop framing this in terms of what the Germans did. We need to think in other terms.
    , @Beckow

    ...Ethnonationalistic Finns tend to remember the long struggle against Germanic tyrants and their revolting racial supremacist ideologies.
     
    Who were the Germanic tyrants? Swedes?

    I have heard stories that Finnish economy, e.g. Nokia at its heyday, was largely run by the local Swedes. There was also the anti-Finnish behaviour in Sweden a generation or two ago - assimilate the Finnish immigrants. And the hockey fights.
  77. @AaronB
    It has nothing to do with IQ (intelligence). It has to do with intellectualism. No other people are as intellectual as whites - this level of abstraction disconnects you from your instincts and tradition = unhealthy and stupid.

    Whites need to become stupider to become more intelligent.

    It has nothing to do with IQ (intelligence). It has to do with intellectualism. No other people are as intellectual as whites – this level of abstraction disconnects you from your instincts and tradition = unhealthy and stupid.

    Whites need to become stupider to become more intelligent.

    Yes.

    A good example of intellectualism in action. Some intellectual comes up with a theory (supported by zero evidence) that humans have something called gender as distinct from biological sex. The theory gets elaborated. Gender can be changed – if a man puts on a dress he becomes a woman. The theory gets further elaborated – there are actually dozens of genders! This is all theory of course but intellectuals love theories and have no interest in reality.

    A non-intellectual on the other hand would say, “That’s not a woman. It’s just a guy wearing a frock.”

    To fight this we need an ideology that is both inspirational and non-intellectual.

    HBD is both intellectual and non-inspirational.

    • Replies: @AaronB
    Agreed.

    What people don't perhaps realize is that high IQ races like Jews and Asians are far less intellectual than whites, and far more practical and earth-bound.

    This is somewhat known with regard to Asians, who are known for avoiding the theoretical and having a practical bent.

    But its also true of Jews. They may spin elaborate word theories, but it's usually for professional advancement. And Jewish culture proper is extremely earth-bound. The Talmud is often criticized for its concern with physical minutiae and the petty details of day to day life. It is not lofty spirituality. Although the discussion is framed in terms of its spiritual impact.

    Whites are the most purely intellectual of all the races, the most brainy, the race which developed this one organ at the expense of the rest of the body more than any other.

    Its also why whites developed the entire theoretical framework of the modern world and the world of technology and science, and have made most major contributions in all theoretical fields.

    But it is clearly something that comes at too steep a cost. And whites have to become stupider, more like the Jews and Asians, to become more intelligent.
  78. @Archimedes
    This is just a thought exercise for me. But I just look at what is going on in North-West Europe and wonder if perhaps some how other parts of the world that are more "blended" might be more resilient.

    The Chinese are a very *Mongrel* people of blended DNA. They seem to be pretty weary of Islam. I am just throwing out topics for discussion, because I think the status quo is just untenable. I am a big believer in HBD, but I see Europe collapsing and think "What should we do?" We can't just go Black Pill.

    see Europe collapsing

    I don’t think it is for most countries. Perhaps, only, there is a disaster in the future for France – where the political culture seems mentally ill, in all dimensions.

    But most Western European countries, I do not think are collapsing. They’re often improving in most dimensions, in recent years, even despite self-created problems of the acceptance of too much immigration from third-world countries, and of delusional experiments of European Union.

    As for Islam – again, the better quality of people of Muslim origin, are moderating and secularizing. While as a “converting” religion, Islam usually only attracts a lowest quality of human capital of non-Muslim origin. So this is creating future problems, but such dynamics (attracting some losers from other races, while losing the better people in the immigrants’ own races) do not seem like it would result in the countries “turning over” to become Muslim. Rather, it presents the problem of adding a permanent Muslim underclass to the society.

  79. @Dmitry
    Realize that many people want different things, even while they agree on the topic of anti-immigration.

    Everyone (well, maybe 80% of people), opposes current stream of third-world immigration to first and second world countries. But precisely because anti-immigration views are such a consensus, our shared view on this topic does not necessarily imply commonality on other issues.

    Dfordoom, for example, wants social conservatism. His dream is for a country with more stable marriages, less divorces and less abortions. So it's not surprising that focus on "IQ scores" of immigrants, is not very interesting for him.

    On the other hand, I prefer to live in society with more intelligent people, so although I do not see "IQ tests" as serious, I would much prefer that immigration will be only of people who can at least discuss in an academic way. (You only need to read the comments on Unz, to know how offensive and spiritually depressing too much exposure to "low IQ populations" can be).

    I would of course prefer to live in a country of intelligent divorced people, than country of stupid people with stable marriages, while Dfordoom probably would choose the opposite to me.

    Another divergent example is Karlin, who is some kind of "techno-nationalist" liberal, that loves gadgets and technology, and knows this will not be helped by a country flooded with "low IQ immigration". Well the attraction of national IQ test score differences, is very clear for this ideology - but Karlin's viewpoint will not attract or persuade many luddites and rednecks.


    The Finns party has pretty much no other major issue or unity except anti-immigration.
     
    The "IQ test score" perspective, will be particularly useful for Finland, as a country which relies on a hi-tech economy, and which is most proud and self-promoted for having the "best education system in the world". In this case, "IQ test scores" discussion could shift focus to more selective immigration for Finland, as this will match industrial needs and self-perception of Finland's unique strength (education).

    But in other, larger countries, where not educated immigrants are imported precisely to clean roads and cheap construction - then attention to the low IQ test scores of the immigrants, would not necessarily change the current rationale for their immigration.

    Everyone (well, maybe 80% of people), opposes current stream of third-world immigration to first and second world countries.

    I think that’s wildly optimistic. For starters, among white people under 35 support for mass immigration is overwhelming. Among middle-class white people support for mass immigration is overwhelming. Immigration increases GDP which makes middle-class white people richer (at least that’s what they believe).

    If immigration really was so unpopular anti-immigration parties would be getting more than 17.5% of the vote.

    • Replies: @Jaakko Raipala
    Dude, what the hell are you talking about? Anti-immigration has absolutely overwhelming support in surveys. Eg,

    https://www.helsinginuutiset.fi/artikkeli/373376-74-prosenttia-haluaa-tiukempaa-maahanmuuttopolitiikkaa

    reports on a survey on immigration: 74 % want to reduce immigration. It's consistently about that - among voters less than 20 % support increased immigration, yet among political parties everything is reversed and the near 80 % opinion has 20 % representation.

    For another example by party lines, here's a survey on whether Finland should take more quota refugees by political party of responders.

    https://img.ilcdn.fi/Gv2BHIHHOAhYIv5G2cJKaOCyxWI=/full-fit-in/2048x/img-s3.ilcdn.fi/c8cf338a45c4d97f5a1d79493dd237e51eb231cb7796dce9a8d98af3ad318d65.jpg

    Dark blue = take the same amount of refugees
    Orange = reduce
    Gray = Stop taking any refugees
    Yellow = increase a bit
    Light blue = increase a lot

    The voters of NO political party backed massive increases. The Green party voters came closest with 48 % of their voters being in favor of more refugees and only 11 % for less refugees - but even in the Green party the majority of the voters isn't in favor of more refugees.

    Yet at that time all political parties except the Finns party (Perussuomalaiset) were in favor of massively increasing the quota. All of them.

    The only political party where the party platform and elite opinion matches its voter opinion is the Finns party. In the rest of the parties there's an absolutely massive divergence between party opinion and voter opinion: politicians outside of the Finns party are all expected to be fervently pro-immigration or to become pariah but voters don't actually back this elite imposed policy.

    Rather than obsessively blackpill about people actually supporting migration (they don't), why not try to figure out why there's such a consensus among party elites to promote a policy that their voters don't agree with? In the long run it does mean that the anti-immigration party will keep stealing more and more voters. But in the meanwhile, democracy has clearly failed as political parties have become just fronts for agendas that are decided somewhere outside of the reach of the voters.

  80. @Archimedes
    I agree no one will be willing to die for HBD. I think the true World Wide threat is Islam. It's an anti-science ideology that will put everyone back in the stone age.

    It's pretty much the only thing that can Unite China, Russia, Latin America, and others. It's a human virus in my opinion.

    I think the true World Wide threat is Islam.

    Islam presents zero threat to healthy societies. It is only a threat to diseased, corrupt, decadent societies. If you have a diseased, corrupt, decadent society you’re already screwed.

    The true World Wide threat is liberalism which produces diseased, corrupt, decadent societies.

    Eliminate liberalism (and especially feminism) and you won’t need to worry about Islam at all. Islam is an imaginary enemy.

    • Replies: @Scalper
    The day has finally come when idiots discuss on the internet whether liberalism should be binned, for they honestly believe they are enjoying too many freedoms.

    The idea of eliminating liberalism strikes me as moronic in the extreme.

    So you are tired of freedom, and having the right to a fair trial, having your property protected by laws, judges and police.

    You cannot simply eliminate a set of ideas. Never has worked and never will. Best case scenario, you can substitute so called liberalism with something else, most likely an hybrid.

    Lets take the decent enough definition of liberalism from Wikipedia:

    Liberals espouse a wide array of views depending on their understanding of these principles, but they generally support limited government, individual rights (including civil rights and human rights), capitalism (free markets), democracy, secularism, gender equality, racial equality, internationalism, freedom of speech, freedom of the press and freedom of religion.

     

    So lets get rid of human rights including your daughters and sisters right not to get raped and kidnapped and be sold into slavery.

    Lets also rid ourselves from annoying civil and political rights, such as the right of assembly, right to vote, right to create a political party, miranda rights, right to a fair trial and due process, right to self defense.

    To hell with freedom of speech and freedom of press and religion.

    What kind of retard would get rid of all that ffs? Get a fucking grip.

    Now why dont you get a grip and point out exactly which parts you would bin and why and let us discuss the possible unintended consequences of such action?
  81. @Bassarab
    Every single High-IQ nation is not reproducing at replacement level rates. Why then do these HBDers not ask the question of whether High-IQ is good thing or not? Or rather, if the comforts and luxuries of the modern world are actually destructive?

    Every single High-IQ nation is not reproducing at replacement level rates. Why then do these HBDers not ask the question of whether High-IQ is good thing or not? Or rather, if the comforts and luxuries of the modern world are actually destructive?

    HBDers are like junkies. They don’t want to stop taking the drugs that are killing them. The drugs that are killing them are feminism, sexual degeneracy, hedonism, consumerism, technology worship, trash culture, atheism, capitalism. They think they can keep all those things and still have a civilisation.

    They can see society going down the toilet but they refuse to accept that this is happening because their society has become decadent and worthless. So they look for scapegoats. It’s the Jews! It’s the darkies! It’s the Muslims! It’s those awful low-IQ people!

    They don’t want to face unpleasant realities, such as the fact that people in our society are too selfish to have children, too self-indulgent to make their marriages work, too greedy to do anything to save their own societies. The fault lies within us.

    • Replies: @Bassarab
    Agreed on all points but I can have some sympathy for junkies. But the autists on the right? Nope. Their smugness and self-satisfaction precludes any sympathy.
    , @Dmitry
    I agree some of these ideologies and websites, operate as a sink for mentally ill and angry people.

    They are designed to attract the low quality and unpleasant people, and give them an excuse to express their hostility in a way that will discredit a particular set of views (unusually today on internet commentaries).

    If I was a conspiracy theorist, I would imagine they were deployed as a way to scare away normal people, from actually sensible policies, like anti-immigration or selective immigration.

    However, in reality, this conspiracy only exists in a very open way - for example, when the CNN and NYT promotes "Richard Spencer" as the "most important American nationalist", during the 2016 President's election, to try to lose some votes for Trump.


    They don’t want to face unpleasant realities, such as the fact that people in our society are too selfish to have children, too self-indulgent to make their marriages work
     
    Because your desire is "social conservatism." But a large proportion of people opposed to unfiltered third-world immigration to first or second world countries, do not necessarily care about "social conservatism".

    For example, all intelligent liberals, should oppose third-world immigration (or at least unfiltered such immigration) to their country, as the hyper-liberal policy of countries like Netherlands, requires a comparatively higher level of cultural and possibly human capital development, than a socially conservative policy.

    , @reiner Tor

    HBDers are like junkies. They don’t want to stop taking the drugs that are killing them. The drugs that are killing them are feminism, sexual degeneracy, hedonism, consumerism, technology worship, trash culture, atheism, capitalism. They think they can keep all those things and still have a civilisation.
     
    Actually, HBD has very little to say about some of those things, like capitalism or atheism. Again, it’s just a part of the description of reality, a field of scientific study currently suppressed. So why would it have anything to say about the existence of God? It’s certainly compatible with both belief in God and religion and the lack of it.

    But, obviously, it makes feminism, transgenderism, most of LGBT ideology, blank slatism, and a number of similar beliefs untenable. (Remember that it’s about biological differences between groups of humans: that includes men and women.) I don’t think there is a single feminist HBD proponent. Even among gay-friendly HBD proponents (like white nationalist fruitcake Greg Johnson) support for gay marriage seems to be very low.

    Anyway, you seem to think that HBD should be a stand-alone ideology of everything, a political platform, and presumably a floor wax, too. It’s not that, was never that, and cannot be that. Why don’t you demand the same thing of nuclear physics? Why don’t you criticize it for its lack of inspiration? Because the media and our enemies didn’t label it literally Nazi?

  82. @dfordoom

    Everyone (well, maybe 80% of people), opposes current stream of third-world immigration to first and second world countries.
     
    I think that's wildly optimistic. For starters, among white people under 35 support for mass immigration is overwhelming. Among middle-class white people support for mass immigration is overwhelming. Immigration increases GDP which makes middle-class white people richer (at least that's what they believe).

    If immigration really was so unpopular anti-immigration parties would be getting more than 17.5% of the vote.

    Dude, what the hell are you talking about? Anti-immigration has absolutely overwhelming support in surveys. Eg,

    https://www.helsinginuutiset.fi/artikkeli/373376-74-prosenttia-haluaa-tiukempaa-maahanmuuttopolitiikkaa

    reports on a survey on immigration: 74 % want to reduce immigration. It’s consistently about that – among voters less than 20 % support increased immigration, yet among political parties everything is reversed and the near 80 % opinion has 20 % representation.

    For another example by party lines, here’s a survey on whether Finland should take more quota refugees by political party of responders.

    Dark blue = take the same amount of refugees
    Orange = reduce
    Gray = Stop taking any refugees
    Yellow = increase a bit
    Light blue = increase a lot

    The voters of NO political party backed massive increases. The Green party voters came closest with 48 % of their voters being in favor of more refugees and only 11 % for less refugees – but even in the Green party the majority of the voters isn’t in favor of more refugees.

    Yet at that time all political parties except the Finns party (Perussuomalaiset) were in favor of massively increasing the quota. All of them.

    The only political party where the party platform and elite opinion matches its voter opinion is the Finns party. In the rest of the parties there’s an absolutely massive divergence between party opinion and voter opinion: politicians outside of the Finns party are all expected to be fervently pro-immigration or to become pariah but voters don’t actually back this elite imposed policy.

    Rather than obsessively blackpill about people actually supporting migration (they don’t), why not try to figure out why there’s such a consensus among party elites to promote a policy that their voters don’t agree with? In the long run it does mean that the anti-immigration party will keep stealing more and more voters. But in the meanwhile, democracy has clearly failed as political parties have become just fronts for agendas that are decided somewhere outside of the reach of the voters.

    • Replies: @dfordoom

    74 % want to reduce immigration.
     
    So why don't they vote for anti-immigration parties?

    You can't get away from the fact that when it comes to casting actual votes in actual elections the overwhelming majority votes for parties that they know are rabidly pro-immigration.

    If those 74% had voted for the anti-immigration party then immigration would now be ending. But they didn't.

    Possible explanations: opinion polls and surveys are worthless, people are much stupider than anyone could have imagined, or immigration is a very very minor issue to most people. If any of those possible explanations are true then anti-immigration/nationalist parties are doomed to permanent political irrelevance.

    There are other possible explanations but they take us into the realm of conspiracy theories.
    , @dfordoom

    why not try to figure out why there’s such a consensus among party elites to promote a policy that their voters don’t agree with?
     
    But the voters do agree with that policy. They express their agreement by consistently voting for pro-immigration parties. In the only poll that matters, the one on election day, the voters come down massively on the side of mass immigration.

    Yet at that time all political parties except the Finns party (Perussuomalaiset) were in favor of massively increasing the quota. All of them.
     
    And they're the parties that got a combined vote share of 82.5%.

    The mystery that needs to be solved is why people's voting behaviour is the precise opposite of the opinions they express in surveys. That's the great mystery of democracy.

    The only explanation I can think of is that people are opposed to immigration but they find the nationalist/anti-immigration parties to be so repulsive or so ludicrous that they absolutely refuse to vote for them. That explanation at least offers hope. What we need to do is to find out exactly what it is about nationalist/anti-immigration parties that causes voters to feel so much disgust or so much contempt.
  83. @dfordoom

    Every single High-IQ nation is not reproducing at replacement level rates. Why then do these HBDers not ask the question of whether High-IQ is good thing or not? Or rather, if the comforts and luxuries of the modern world are actually destructive?
     
    HBDers are like junkies. They don't want to stop taking the drugs that are killing them. The drugs that are killing them are feminism, sexual degeneracy, hedonism, consumerism, technology worship, trash culture, atheism, capitalism. They think they can keep all those things and still have a civilisation.

    They can see society going down the toilet but they refuse to accept that this is happening because their society has become decadent and worthless. So they look for scapegoats. It's the Jews! It's the darkies! It's the Muslims! It's those awful low-IQ people!

    They don't want to face unpleasant realities, such as the fact that people in our society are too selfish to have children, too self-indulgent to make their marriages work, too greedy to do anything to save their own societies. The fault lies within us.

    Agreed on all points but I can have some sympathy for junkies. But the autists on the right? Nope. Their smugness and self-satisfaction precludes any sympathy.

  84. @Jaakko Raipala
    Dude, what the hell are you talking about? Anti-immigration has absolutely overwhelming support in surveys. Eg,

    https://www.helsinginuutiset.fi/artikkeli/373376-74-prosenttia-haluaa-tiukempaa-maahanmuuttopolitiikkaa

    reports on a survey on immigration: 74 % want to reduce immigration. It's consistently about that - among voters less than 20 % support increased immigration, yet among political parties everything is reversed and the near 80 % opinion has 20 % representation.

    For another example by party lines, here's a survey on whether Finland should take more quota refugees by political party of responders.

    https://img.ilcdn.fi/Gv2BHIHHOAhYIv5G2cJKaOCyxWI=/full-fit-in/2048x/img-s3.ilcdn.fi/c8cf338a45c4d97f5a1d79493dd237e51eb231cb7796dce9a8d98af3ad318d65.jpg

    Dark blue = take the same amount of refugees
    Orange = reduce
    Gray = Stop taking any refugees
    Yellow = increase a bit
    Light blue = increase a lot

    The voters of NO political party backed massive increases. The Green party voters came closest with 48 % of their voters being in favor of more refugees and only 11 % for less refugees - but even in the Green party the majority of the voters isn't in favor of more refugees.

    Yet at that time all political parties except the Finns party (Perussuomalaiset) were in favor of massively increasing the quota. All of them.

    The only political party where the party platform and elite opinion matches its voter opinion is the Finns party. In the rest of the parties there's an absolutely massive divergence between party opinion and voter opinion: politicians outside of the Finns party are all expected to be fervently pro-immigration or to become pariah but voters don't actually back this elite imposed policy.

    Rather than obsessively blackpill about people actually supporting migration (they don't), why not try to figure out why there's such a consensus among party elites to promote a policy that their voters don't agree with? In the long run it does mean that the anti-immigration party will keep stealing more and more voters. But in the meanwhile, democracy has clearly failed as political parties have become just fronts for agendas that are decided somewhere outside of the reach of the voters.

    74 % want to reduce immigration.

    So why don’t they vote for anti-immigration parties?

    You can’t get away from the fact that when it comes to casting actual votes in actual elections the overwhelming majority votes for parties that they know are rabidly pro-immigration.

    If those 74% had voted for the anti-immigration party then immigration would now be ending. But they didn’t.

    Possible explanations: opinion polls and surveys are worthless, people are much stupider than anyone could have imagined, or immigration is a very very minor issue to most people. If any of those possible explanations are true then anti-immigration/nationalist parties are doomed to permanent political irrelevance.

    There are other possible explanations but they take us into the realm of conspiracy theories.

    • Replies: @Jaakko Raipala

    You can’t get away from the fact that when it comes to casting actual votes in actual elections the overwhelming majority votes for parties that they know are rabidly pro-immigration.
     
    First of all, most people are not single issue voters. We NEVER have ANY political party maintain over 20 % of the vote for very long as whatever economic policy you decide to pick will alienate some people. Most people put economic policy, health care etc before immigration which puts the anti-immigration party in the bind that they have to either be a single issue party (immigration) which means people who vote on health care etc will be turned off or they have to pick a lot of policy which means some voters with different opinions will be turned off.

    The Finns party has been sort of shifting between being a single issue party with no coherent program outside of immigration and between being a working class socialist party that just happens to disagree on immigration. Most of my relatives are very anti-immigration but they will never, ever vote for the Finns party since it means voting for a party that's working class socialist or has no economic policy at all. So yes, right-wing voters generally reject the party - but it's not because of the HBD aware people in charge, it's because it's not actually a right-wing party.

    Second of all, they often don't know the migration policy of their party. One of the big reasons the Center Party collapsed so massively in these polls is that when they ruled, a party that has been traditionally considered rural, value conservative and anti-EU went full with the transsexual, mass immigration and pro-EU agenda which rather massively surprised their voters.

    A lot of my rural relatives vote for this party or the other cuckservative party and complain about EU, immigration and all that. When I show them a party platform or speeches in party conventions that are now freely available on the internet and their party is talking about internationalizing Finland with a million migrants or whatever, they're usually incredibly shocked and surprised at what they've been voting for.

    You are obsessed with immigration so you find out what politicians think about immigration. Most people just assume. When we have parties like National Coalition who were patriotic for nearly a century and then suddenly turned into an anti-nationalist eurofederalist rainbow party in the past 10 years, it's going to take some time for voters to adjust and realize that the party of our grandfathers is no longer what it used to be.

    We need to see two things happen. We need to figure out what to do with the party elite capture of parties and we need to see the anti-immigration focused party breaking 25-30 % to pressure the other parties to change their policies so that we have more anti-immigration options besides the one party.
  85. @Anonymous

    Yeah, it might not even need US military and economic might to prop it up! “Formidable”, indeed.
     
    >military might

    Oh, my mistake, I hadn't realized that the US military had defeated Arab forces in the 1948, 1967 and 1973 wars.

    >economic might

    The US currently gives ~$3 billion dollars a year to Israel in aid. Israel's GDP is ~$350 billion.

    I do not support the aid program, but it is completely illogical to assert that a source of revenue that is <1% of a country's GDP is propping up that country. (Indeed, this could be construed as an additional argument against US aid to Israel.)

    Oh, my mistake, I hadn’t realized that the US military had defeated Arab forces in the 1948, 1967 and 1973 wars.

    Did it with homemade weapons, did they? No support at all from the US.

    The US currently gives ~$3 billion dollars a year to Israel in aid. Israel’s GDP is ~$350 billion.

    Three billion to a country of only 8.7 million. I guess crime stat denialists aren’t the only ones who hate those two terrible words, “per capita”.

    https://ifamericaknew.org/stat/cost.html

    “GDP” is a joke stat.

    • Replies: @Anonymous

    Did it with homemade weapons, did they? No support at all from the US.
     
    In fact, local production played a significant role even in the 1948 war, e.g.:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayalon_Institute

    And today of course Israel has a massive defense industry, which manufactures and exports large quantities of arms. Its current share of global arms exports is around 3%, compared to its ~0.12% share of world population.

    https://www.sipri.org/sites/default/files/2019-03/fs_1903_at_2018_0.pdf

    Furthermore, purchasing arms/receiving aid from the US is no guarantee of military success---consider e.g. ARVN. Indeed, Arab armies, like that of the Saudis today, have often likewise had high-quality military equipment purchased from foreign countries that has only translated into modest, at best, results. The human competence necessary to operate the machinery of modern warfare is not a factor that can be taken for granted.

    Three billion to a country of only 8.7 million. I guess crime stat denialists aren’t the only ones who hate those two terrible words, “per capita”.
     
    Ironically, you seem to be the party in this discussion struggling with the simple and useful concept of "per capita." 3 billion divided by 8.7 million is obviously less than 1,000. According to your own source, If America Knew, (quoting Professors Walt and Mearsheimer), US aid to Israel is the per capita equivalent of an annual $500 subsidy to each individual Israeli:

    https://ifamericaknew.org/stat/usaid.html


    Israel's per capita GDP is now around $40,000.


    “GDP” is a joke stat.
     
    On the contrary, GDP is a very useful measurement:

    https://www.investopedia.com/terms/g/gdp.asp
  86. @Jaakko Raipala
    Dude, what the hell are you talking about? Anti-immigration has absolutely overwhelming support in surveys. Eg,

    https://www.helsinginuutiset.fi/artikkeli/373376-74-prosenttia-haluaa-tiukempaa-maahanmuuttopolitiikkaa

    reports on a survey on immigration: 74 % want to reduce immigration. It's consistently about that - among voters less than 20 % support increased immigration, yet among political parties everything is reversed and the near 80 % opinion has 20 % representation.

    For another example by party lines, here's a survey on whether Finland should take more quota refugees by political party of responders.

    https://img.ilcdn.fi/Gv2BHIHHOAhYIv5G2cJKaOCyxWI=/full-fit-in/2048x/img-s3.ilcdn.fi/c8cf338a45c4d97f5a1d79493dd237e51eb231cb7796dce9a8d98af3ad318d65.jpg

    Dark blue = take the same amount of refugees
    Orange = reduce
    Gray = Stop taking any refugees
    Yellow = increase a bit
    Light blue = increase a lot

    The voters of NO political party backed massive increases. The Green party voters came closest with 48 % of their voters being in favor of more refugees and only 11 % for less refugees - but even in the Green party the majority of the voters isn't in favor of more refugees.

    Yet at that time all political parties except the Finns party (Perussuomalaiset) were in favor of massively increasing the quota. All of them.

    The only political party where the party platform and elite opinion matches its voter opinion is the Finns party. In the rest of the parties there's an absolutely massive divergence between party opinion and voter opinion: politicians outside of the Finns party are all expected to be fervently pro-immigration or to become pariah but voters don't actually back this elite imposed policy.

    Rather than obsessively blackpill about people actually supporting migration (they don't), why not try to figure out why there's such a consensus among party elites to promote a policy that their voters don't agree with? In the long run it does mean that the anti-immigration party will keep stealing more and more voters. But in the meanwhile, democracy has clearly failed as political parties have become just fronts for agendas that are decided somewhere outside of the reach of the voters.

    why not try to figure out why there’s such a consensus among party elites to promote a policy that their voters don’t agree with?

    But the voters do agree with that policy. They express their agreement by consistently voting for pro-immigration parties. In the only poll that matters, the one on election day, the voters come down massively on the side of mass immigration.

    Yet at that time all political parties except the Finns party (Perussuomalaiset) were in favor of massively increasing the quota. All of them.

    And they’re the parties that got a combined vote share of 82.5%.

    The mystery that needs to be solved is why people’s voting behaviour is the precise opposite of the opinions they express in surveys. That’s the great mystery of democracy.

    The only explanation I can think of is that people are opposed to immigration but they find the nationalist/anti-immigration parties to be so repulsive or so ludicrous that they absolutely refuse to vote for them. That explanation at least offers hope. What we need to do is to find out exactly what it is about nationalist/anti-immigration parties that causes voters to feel so much disgust or so much contempt.

  87. Most people on the right can’t win cultural or civilization wars, not just HBDers. The right is filled with magical thinking, impractical solutions, conspiracy theories, infighting, and all kinds of retarded nonsense. It’s focused on outgroups and foreign tribes when most of the problem is internal traitors and bad ideology. It wastes most of its time being outraged about stuff and being offensive for the sake of being offensive.

    After some years of disillusionment I must agree with the left’s characterization of right-wing “chuds”: Disgruntled men lashing out emotionally, without nuance or plan, completely unable to change the system. There is a distinct lack of social skills. They don’t know when to attack vs when to retreat, when to debate vs when to mock, how to create catchy new jargon, how to launch true verbal assaults (hint: it’s not with slurs), etc.

    I’m convinced now that to win, the right needs an elite group of nerdy ideological zealots who will focus on eliminating egalitarianism from all sectors of society. Whatever your gripes about Muslims or Jews or women is downstream from that goal.

    • Agree: dfordoom
    • Replies: @DFH
    So shocking that a Chinese would say this.
    , @anon

    I’m convinced now that to win, the right needs an elite group of nerdy ideological zealots who will focus on eliminating egalitarianism from all sectors of society.
     
    Indeed. Time to KNEEL BEFORE ZOD, low IQ troglodytes!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UKDFop0aqYQ
    , @Bliss

    the right needs an elite group of nerdy ideological zealots who will focus on eliminating egalitarianism from all sectors of society.
     
    You are a nerd. Am I right?
    , @Daniel Chieh
    My contribution to this is Liebig's law of the minimum is what applies to the operation of a system, including the application of ideologies into reality. It is the weakest piece of it which most impacts its delivery, and the larger and more encompassing the process is supposed to be, the more likely it'll be limited by an aspect. So in a fashion, competing against the neoliberal ideology with its own many weaknesses is like a potato sack race - its not so much which ideology performs better, but which one is more crippled.
    , @AaronB
    You are right, and this is why I say the revolution will come from a splinter sect that breaks off from the elite. High caliber men bred to leadership and status.

    Unfortunately, its almost impossible to eradicate a servile state of mind and the mentality and bad habits of the socially inferior. Putting a clever brain in a lower class body does not a leader make.

    You see this with intelligent lower class men like Steve Sailer, Derbyshire, Karlin. They are smarter than the average for their class, but they have the mentality of serfs, and are instinctively servile to Jews and Asians.

    Occasionally, the lower classes produce a true leader with the right stuff, but Spartacus's are rare - and his band of lower class rabble ultimately couldn't remain disciplined and loyal. Another factor in why revolutions from the bottom don't succeed - the quality of the followers, even if the leadership is good.
  88. @Jason Liu
    Most people on the right can't win cultural or civilization wars, not just HBDers. The right is filled with magical thinking, impractical solutions, conspiracy theories, infighting, and all kinds of retarded nonsense. It's focused on outgroups and foreign tribes when most of the problem is internal traitors and bad ideology. It wastes most of its time being outraged about stuff and being offensive for the sake of being offensive.

    After some years of disillusionment I must agree with the left's characterization of right-wing "chuds": Disgruntled men lashing out emotionally, without nuance or plan, completely unable to change the system. There is a distinct lack of social skills. They don't know when to attack vs when to retreat, when to debate vs when to mock, how to create catchy new jargon, how to launch true verbal assaults (hint: it's not with slurs), etc.

    I'm convinced now that to win, the right needs an elite group of nerdy ideological zealots who will focus on eliminating egalitarianism from all sectors of society. Whatever your gripes about Muslims or Jews or women is downstream from that goal.

    So shocking that a Chinese would say this.

  89. @Jason Liu
    Most people on the right can't win cultural or civilization wars, not just HBDers. The right is filled with magical thinking, impractical solutions, conspiracy theories, infighting, and all kinds of retarded nonsense. It's focused on outgroups and foreign tribes when most of the problem is internal traitors and bad ideology. It wastes most of its time being outraged about stuff and being offensive for the sake of being offensive.

    After some years of disillusionment I must agree with the left's characterization of right-wing "chuds": Disgruntled men lashing out emotionally, without nuance or plan, completely unable to change the system. There is a distinct lack of social skills. They don't know when to attack vs when to retreat, when to debate vs when to mock, how to create catchy new jargon, how to launch true verbal assaults (hint: it's not with slurs), etc.

    I'm convinced now that to win, the right needs an elite group of nerdy ideological zealots who will focus on eliminating egalitarianism from all sectors of society. Whatever your gripes about Muslims or Jews or women is downstream from that goal.

    I’m convinced now that to win, the right needs an elite group of nerdy ideological zealots who will focus on eliminating egalitarianism from all sectors of society.

    Indeed. Time to KNEEL BEFORE ZOD, low IQ troglodytes!

  90. @dfordoom

    74 % want to reduce immigration.
     
    So why don't they vote for anti-immigration parties?

    You can't get away from the fact that when it comes to casting actual votes in actual elections the overwhelming majority votes for parties that they know are rabidly pro-immigration.

    If those 74% had voted for the anti-immigration party then immigration would now be ending. But they didn't.

    Possible explanations: opinion polls and surveys are worthless, people are much stupider than anyone could have imagined, or immigration is a very very minor issue to most people. If any of those possible explanations are true then anti-immigration/nationalist parties are doomed to permanent political irrelevance.

    There are other possible explanations but they take us into the realm of conspiracy theories.

    You can’t get away from the fact that when it comes to casting actual votes in actual elections the overwhelming majority votes for parties that they know are rabidly pro-immigration.

    First of all, most people are not single issue voters. We NEVER have ANY political party maintain over 20 % of the vote for very long as whatever economic policy you decide to pick will alienate some people. Most people put economic policy, health care etc before immigration which puts the anti-immigration party in the bind that they have to either be a single issue party (immigration) which means people who vote on health care etc will be turned off or they have to pick a lot of policy which means some voters with different opinions will be turned off.

    The Finns party has been sort of shifting between being a single issue party with no coherent program outside of immigration and between being a working class socialist party that just happens to disagree on immigration. Most of my relatives are very anti-immigration but they will never, ever vote for the Finns party since it means voting for a party that’s working class socialist or has no economic policy at all. So yes, right-wing voters generally reject the party – but it’s not because of the HBD aware people in charge, it’s because it’s not actually a right-wing party.

    Second of all, they often don’t know the migration policy of their party. One of the big reasons the Center Party collapsed so massively in these polls is that when they ruled, a party that has been traditionally considered rural, value conservative and anti-EU went full with the transsexual, mass immigration and pro-EU agenda which rather massively surprised their voters.

    A lot of my rural relatives vote for this party or the other cuckservative party and complain about EU, immigration and all that. When I show them a party platform or speeches in party conventions that are now freely available on the internet and their party is talking about internationalizing Finland with a million migrants or whatever, they’re usually incredibly shocked and surprised at what they’ve been voting for.

    You are obsessed with immigration so you find out what politicians think about immigration. Most people just assume. When we have parties like National Coalition who were patriotic for nearly a century and then suddenly turned into an anti-nationalist eurofederalist rainbow party in the past 10 years, it’s going to take some time for voters to adjust and realize that the party of our grandfathers is no longer what it used to be.

    We need to see two things happen. We need to figure out what to do with the party elite capture of parties and we need to see the anti-immigration focused party breaking 25-30 % to pressure the other parties to change their policies so that we have more anti-immigration options besides the one party.

  91. @Jason Liu
    Most people on the right can't win cultural or civilization wars, not just HBDers. The right is filled with magical thinking, impractical solutions, conspiracy theories, infighting, and all kinds of retarded nonsense. It's focused on outgroups and foreign tribes when most of the problem is internal traitors and bad ideology. It wastes most of its time being outraged about stuff and being offensive for the sake of being offensive.

    After some years of disillusionment I must agree with the left's characterization of right-wing "chuds": Disgruntled men lashing out emotionally, without nuance or plan, completely unable to change the system. There is a distinct lack of social skills. They don't know when to attack vs when to retreat, when to debate vs when to mock, how to create catchy new jargon, how to launch true verbal assaults (hint: it's not with slurs), etc.

    I'm convinced now that to win, the right needs an elite group of nerdy ideological zealots who will focus on eliminating egalitarianism from all sectors of society. Whatever your gripes about Muslims or Jews or women is downstream from that goal.

    the right needs an elite group of nerdy ideological zealots who will focus on eliminating egalitarianism from all sectors of society.

    You are a nerd. Am I right?

  92. @dfordoom

    I think the true World Wide threat is Islam.
     
    Islam presents zero threat to healthy societies. It is only a threat to diseased, corrupt, decadent societies. If you have a diseased, corrupt, decadent society you're already screwed.

    The true World Wide threat is liberalism which produces diseased, corrupt, decadent societies.

    Eliminate liberalism (and especially feminism) and you won't need to worry about Islam at all. Islam is an imaginary enemy.

    The day has finally come when idiots discuss on the internet whether liberalism should be binned, for they honestly believe they are enjoying too many freedoms.

    The idea of eliminating liberalism strikes me as moronic in the extreme.

    So you are tired of freedom, and having the right to a fair trial, having your property protected by laws, judges and police.

    You cannot simply eliminate a set of ideas. Never has worked and never will. Best case scenario, you can substitute so called liberalism with something else, most likely an hybrid.

    Lets take the decent enough definition of liberalism from Wikipedia:

    Liberals espouse a wide array of views depending on their understanding of these principles, but they generally support limited government, individual rights (including civil rights and human rights), capitalism (free markets), democracy, secularism, gender equality, racial equality, internationalism, freedom of speech, freedom of the press and freedom of religion.

    So lets get rid of human rights including your daughters and sisters right not to get raped and kidnapped and be sold into slavery.

    Lets also rid ourselves from annoying civil and political rights, such as the right of assembly, right to vote, right to create a political party, miranda rights, right to a fair trial and due process, right to self defense.

    To hell with freedom of speech and freedom of press and religion.

    What kind of retard would get rid of all that ffs? Get a fucking grip.

    Now why dont you get a grip and point out exactly which parts you would bin and why and let us discuss the possible unintended consequences of such action?

    • Replies: @DFH

    the whole post

     

    https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/masonry/001/432/869/220.jpg
    , @Hyperborean
    In reality, life in a non-liberal state is pretty normal. People's culture/ethnicity would be more important in determining satisfaction of life.
    , @Daniel Chieh
    I can think of one happy consequence and its all about you.
    , @anonymous

    So lets get rid of human rights including your daughters and sisters right not to get raped and kidnapped and be sold into slavery.
     
    The "alt right" people plan to be the new "great leaders" or great leader's henchmen, because they are really tough guys (at least on the internet, where they like posing as ancient Romans, Vikings, or medieval knights and cheer for the "coming collapse" and "new civil war").
    They imagine themselves doing all the looting, raping, pillaging and enslaving. This is feature, not a bug.
  93. and between being a working class socialist party that just happens to disagree on immigration.

    Now that’s a combination that should have some chance of success. It’s a logical combination. If you’re a socialist you must logically oppose immigration. If you’re pro-working class you must logically oppose immigration. Socialism is simply not workable with a continual influx of migrants.

    On the other hand if you’re a conservative then you must logically support open borders. Because open borders is good for corporate profits. And if you’re a conservative nothing matters besides corporate profits.

    The whole idea of right-wing anti-immigration or right-wing nationalist parties is a logical absurdity. Such parties cannot succeed. Globalism is a right-wing ideology.

    • Replies: @Hyperborean

    On the other hand if you’re a conservative then you must logically support open borders. Because open borders is good for corporate profits. And if you’re a conservative nothing matters besides corporate profits.

    The whole idea of right-wing anti-immigration or right-wing nationalist parties is a logical absurdity. Such parties cannot succeed. Globalism is a right-wing ideology.
     
    Most of Anglo-Saxon conservativism is really Manchester Liberalism in disguise, but there is no reason why that needs to be the case for other cultures.
  94. @Scalper
    The day has finally come when idiots discuss on the internet whether liberalism should be binned, for they honestly believe they are enjoying too many freedoms.

    The idea of eliminating liberalism strikes me as moronic in the extreme.

    So you are tired of freedom, and having the right to a fair trial, having your property protected by laws, judges and police.

    You cannot simply eliminate a set of ideas. Never has worked and never will. Best case scenario, you can substitute so called liberalism with something else, most likely an hybrid.

    Lets take the decent enough definition of liberalism from Wikipedia:

    Liberals espouse a wide array of views depending on their understanding of these principles, but they generally support limited government, individual rights (including civil rights and human rights), capitalism (free markets), democracy, secularism, gender equality, racial equality, internationalism, freedom of speech, freedom of the press and freedom of religion.

     

    So lets get rid of human rights including your daughters and sisters right not to get raped and kidnapped and be sold into slavery.

    Lets also rid ourselves from annoying civil and political rights, such as the right of assembly, right to vote, right to create a political party, miranda rights, right to a fair trial and due process, right to self defense.

    To hell with freedom of speech and freedom of press and religion.

    What kind of retard would get rid of all that ffs? Get a fucking grip.

    Now why dont you get a grip and point out exactly which parts you would bin and why and let us discuss the possible unintended consequences of such action?

    the whole post

  95. @Jason Liu
    Most people on the right can't win cultural or civilization wars, not just HBDers. The right is filled with magical thinking, impractical solutions, conspiracy theories, infighting, and all kinds of retarded nonsense. It's focused on outgroups and foreign tribes when most of the problem is internal traitors and bad ideology. It wastes most of its time being outraged about stuff and being offensive for the sake of being offensive.

    After some years of disillusionment I must agree with the left's characterization of right-wing "chuds": Disgruntled men lashing out emotionally, without nuance or plan, completely unable to change the system. There is a distinct lack of social skills. They don't know when to attack vs when to retreat, when to debate vs when to mock, how to create catchy new jargon, how to launch true verbal assaults (hint: it's not with slurs), etc.

    I'm convinced now that to win, the right needs an elite group of nerdy ideological zealots who will focus on eliminating egalitarianism from all sectors of society. Whatever your gripes about Muslims or Jews or women is downstream from that goal.

    My contribution to this is Liebig’s law of the minimum is what applies to the operation of a system, including the application of ideologies into reality. It is the weakest piece of it which most impacts its delivery, and the larger and more encompassing the process is supposed to be, the more likely it’ll be limited by an aspect. So in a fashion, competing against the neoliberal ideology with its own many weaknesses is like a potato sack race – its not so much which ideology performs better, but which one is more crippled.

  96. @dfordoom

    and between being a working class socialist party that just happens to disagree on immigration.
     
    Now that's a combination that should have some chance of success. It's a logical combination. If you're a socialist you must logically oppose immigration. If you're pro-working class you must logically oppose immigration. Socialism is simply not workable with a continual influx of migrants.

    On the other hand if you're a conservative then you must logically support open borders. Because open borders is good for corporate profits. And if you're a conservative nothing matters besides corporate profits.

    The whole idea of right-wing anti-immigration or right-wing nationalist parties is a logical absurdity. Such parties cannot succeed. Globalism is a right-wing ideology.

    On the other hand if you’re a conservative then you must logically support open borders. Because open borders is good for corporate profits. And if you’re a conservative nothing matters besides corporate profits.

    The whole idea of right-wing anti-immigration or right-wing nationalist parties is a logical absurdity. Such parties cannot succeed. Globalism is a right-wing ideology.

    Most of Anglo-Saxon conservativism is really Manchester Liberalism in disguise, but there is no reason why that needs to be the case for other cultures.

    • Replies: @dfordoom

    Most of Anglo-Saxon conservativism is really Manchester Liberalism in disguise, but there is no reason why that needs to be the case for other cultures.
     
    Yes. As used in the Anglosphere the word conservative is not just misleading but deliberately misleading. There ain't nothin' conservative (in the sense in which the word is understood in everyday life) about Anglosphere conservatives.

    Some of the voters who foolishly vote for conservative parties really do have a genuinely conservative mindset but they seem to be entirely incapable of comprehending that they've been conned.
  97. @Scalper
    The day has finally come when idiots discuss on the internet whether liberalism should be binned, for they honestly believe they are enjoying too many freedoms.

    The idea of eliminating liberalism strikes me as moronic in the extreme.

    So you are tired of freedom, and having the right to a fair trial, having your property protected by laws, judges and police.

    You cannot simply eliminate a set of ideas. Never has worked and never will. Best case scenario, you can substitute so called liberalism with something else, most likely an hybrid.

    Lets take the decent enough definition of liberalism from Wikipedia:

    Liberals espouse a wide array of views depending on their understanding of these principles, but they generally support limited government, individual rights (including civil rights and human rights), capitalism (free markets), democracy, secularism, gender equality, racial equality, internationalism, freedom of speech, freedom of the press and freedom of religion.

     

    So lets get rid of human rights including your daughters and sisters right not to get raped and kidnapped and be sold into slavery.

    Lets also rid ourselves from annoying civil and political rights, such as the right of assembly, right to vote, right to create a political party, miranda rights, right to a fair trial and due process, right to self defense.

    To hell with freedom of speech and freedom of press and religion.

    What kind of retard would get rid of all that ffs? Get a fucking grip.

    Now why dont you get a grip and point out exactly which parts you would bin and why and let us discuss the possible unintended consequences of such action?

    In reality, life in a non-liberal state is pretty normal. People’s culture/ethnicity would be more important in determining satisfaction of life.

    • Replies: @EastKekistani
    Well, it may be more common but it is definitely not better for development and scientific progress. The innovative and individualistic culture within the Hajnal line rocks. I'm trying my best to somehow import individualism & innovation into NE Asia ASAP which may require genetic engineering. You guys already have this thing I'm desperately trying to obtain and shouldn't lose it.
  98. @Scalper
    The day has finally come when idiots discuss on the internet whether liberalism should be binned, for they honestly believe they are enjoying too many freedoms.

    The idea of eliminating liberalism strikes me as moronic in the extreme.

    So you are tired of freedom, and having the right to a fair trial, having your property protected by laws, judges and police.

    You cannot simply eliminate a set of ideas. Never has worked and never will. Best case scenario, you can substitute so called liberalism with something else, most likely an hybrid.

    Lets take the decent enough definition of liberalism from Wikipedia:

    Liberals espouse a wide array of views depending on their understanding of these principles, but they generally support limited government, individual rights (including civil rights and human rights), capitalism (free markets), democracy, secularism, gender equality, racial equality, internationalism, freedom of speech, freedom of the press and freedom of religion.

     

    So lets get rid of human rights including your daughters and sisters right not to get raped and kidnapped and be sold into slavery.

    Lets also rid ourselves from annoying civil and political rights, such as the right of assembly, right to vote, right to create a political party, miranda rights, right to a fair trial and due process, right to self defense.

    To hell with freedom of speech and freedom of press and religion.

    What kind of retard would get rid of all that ffs? Get a fucking grip.

    Now why dont you get a grip and point out exactly which parts you would bin and why and let us discuss the possible unintended consequences of such action?

    I can think of one happy consequence and its all about you.

    • Replies: @Scalper
    Being a non retard I can think about many, all of them related to your property, sisters and mom. Oh and your already hollow head, after properly processing it that is.
  99. Ah, finally an HBD follower not talking out of his ass… do tell, in how many non liberal countries have you resided in your 14 years of life?

    • Replies: @Hyperborean

    Ah, finally an HBD follower not talking out of his ass… do tell, in how many non liberal countries have you resided in your 14 years of life?
     
    Although you are not very serious, I currently live in China.
  100. @Daniel Chieh
    I can think of one happy consequence and its all about you.

    Being a non retard I can think about many, all of them related to your property, sisters and mom. Oh and your already hollow head, after properly processing it that is.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    You're so cute :)
  101. Cheers Anatoly, I was wanting to reply to another of your posts, but it is too late, just (-.-)Zzz・・・・ tonight. Thank you for the always generally interesting writing.

  102. @Scalper
    Being a non retard I can think about many, all of them related to your property, sisters and mom. Oh and your already hollow head, after properly processing it that is.

    You’re so cute 🙂

  103. OK., I am trying to log off, or at least switch off, but your comment, Mr.Chieh, is stromgly to remind me of the lyrics of an old American band, Pere Ubu (bandname from a play from Europe), they have a song ‘Non-Alignment Pact’, it is pretty good, seriously recommending that you listen, what the lyrics say are much like what you are saying.

    Also, the leader of Pere Ubu was the fattest U.S. rock or pop performer since Mama Casss choked while stuffing her gob with a sandwich, and Ubu was only matched for weight by Meatloaf.

    Later, Charles and Kim Deal from the Pixies. It is obescity for both.

    However, even though from a younger gen. I am aoways disappointed at interpretations.

  104. anonymous[701] • Disclaimer says:
    @Scalper
    The day has finally come when idiots discuss on the internet whether liberalism should be binned, for they honestly believe they are enjoying too many freedoms.

    The idea of eliminating liberalism strikes me as moronic in the extreme.

    So you are tired of freedom, and having the right to a fair trial, having your property protected by laws, judges and police.

    You cannot simply eliminate a set of ideas. Never has worked and never will. Best case scenario, you can substitute so called liberalism with something else, most likely an hybrid.

    Lets take the decent enough definition of liberalism from Wikipedia:

    Liberals espouse a wide array of views depending on their understanding of these principles, but they generally support limited government, individual rights (including civil rights and human rights), capitalism (free markets), democracy, secularism, gender equality, racial equality, internationalism, freedom of speech, freedom of the press and freedom of religion.

     

    So lets get rid of human rights including your daughters and sisters right not to get raped and kidnapped and be sold into slavery.

    Lets also rid ourselves from annoying civil and political rights, such as the right of assembly, right to vote, right to create a political party, miranda rights, right to a fair trial and due process, right to self defense.

    To hell with freedom of speech and freedom of press and religion.

    What kind of retard would get rid of all that ffs? Get a fucking grip.

    Now why dont you get a grip and point out exactly which parts you would bin and why and let us discuss the possible unintended consequences of such action?

    So lets get rid of human rights including your daughters and sisters right not to get raped and kidnapped and be sold into slavery.

    The “alt right” people plan to be the new “great leaders” or great leader’s henchmen, because they are really tough guys (at least on the internet, where they like posing as ancient Romans, Vikings, or medieval knights and cheer for the “coming collapse” and “new civil war”).
    They imagine themselves doing all the looting, raping, pillaging and enslaving. This is feature, not a bug.

    • LOL: Bliss
    • Replies: @DFH
    I think you're getting 'alt-right guys' mixed up with Somalis
  105. @anonymous

    So lets get rid of human rights including your daughters and sisters right not to get raped and kidnapped and be sold into slavery.
     
    The "alt right" people plan to be the new "great leaders" or great leader's henchmen, because they are really tough guys (at least on the internet, where they like posing as ancient Romans, Vikings, or medieval knights and cheer for the "coming collapse" and "new civil war").
    They imagine themselves doing all the looting, raping, pillaging and enslaving. This is feature, not a bug.

    I think you’re getting ‘alt-right guys’ mixed up with Somalis

  106. @Rational


    HBD IN MOON LANDINGS: ISRAELI MOON ATTEMPT CRASHES, BUT CHINESE SURVIVED?

    Talking about HBD, I am surprised that this big news is not being discussed much.

    The Judaists claim that “we are all the same”, call race a social construct, support BLM, but then claim THEY are the smartest people on earth.

    Their Jewish media constantly pumps HBD King, Einstein, as being the smartest man on earth, even though he was a plagiarist.

    Jordan Peterson, an HBD expert, says Judaists are super rich not because they are super crooked, but because they are super smart, compared to super stupid whites.

    But the stupid whites allegedly sent a MAN on the moon, in the 60’s (wink, wink) , and the Chinese sent a rover to the moon in 2019, that sent photos for a few hours and then has not been heard from, but the Israeli beresheet crashed, and did not even land on the moon, despite probably being built with technology stolen from the Americans.

    https://www.space.com/beresheet-moon-crash-engine-glitch.html

    But the stupid whites allegedly sent a MAN on the moon, in the 60’s (wink, wink) , and the Chinese sent a rover to the moon in 2019, that sent photos for a few hours and then has not been heard from, but the Israeli beresheet crashed, and did not even land on the moon, despite probably being built with technology stolen from the Americans.

    https://www.newsnation.in/science-news/yutu-2-rover-travels-over-170-meters-on-moon-all-you-need-to-know-change-4-mission-china-article-220206.html

    Yutu-2 is still alive as far as I know.

    As for Beresheet this is just one case. I will change my view if future Israeli attempts mostly fail.

  107. @Jason Liu
    Most people on the right can't win cultural or civilization wars, not just HBDers. The right is filled with magical thinking, impractical solutions, conspiracy theories, infighting, and all kinds of retarded nonsense. It's focused on outgroups and foreign tribes when most of the problem is internal traitors and bad ideology. It wastes most of its time being outraged about stuff and being offensive for the sake of being offensive.

    After some years of disillusionment I must agree with the left's characterization of right-wing "chuds": Disgruntled men lashing out emotionally, without nuance or plan, completely unable to change the system. There is a distinct lack of social skills. They don't know when to attack vs when to retreat, when to debate vs when to mock, how to create catchy new jargon, how to launch true verbal assaults (hint: it's not with slurs), etc.

    I'm convinced now that to win, the right needs an elite group of nerdy ideological zealots who will focus on eliminating egalitarianism from all sectors of society. Whatever your gripes about Muslims or Jews or women is downstream from that goal.

    You are right, and this is why I say the revolution will come from a splinter sect that breaks off from the elite. High caliber men bred to leadership and status.

    Unfortunately, its almost impossible to eradicate a servile state of mind and the mentality and bad habits of the socially inferior. Putting a clever brain in a lower class body does not a leader make.

    You see this with intelligent lower class men like Steve Sailer, Derbyshire, Karlin. They are smarter than the average for their class, but they have the mentality of serfs, and are instinctively servile to Jews and Asians.

    Occasionally, the lower classes produce a true leader with the right stuff, but Spartacus’s are rare – and his band of lower class rabble ultimately couldn’t remain disciplined and loyal. Another factor in why revolutions from the bottom don’t succeed – the quality of the followers, even if the leadership is good.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    It's not fair - and not only from politeness or the fact he serves as our online cult leader - to associate Karlin with rabble.

    If you remember, he proved how he is quite independent thinking, if ironically, with the idiotic and rude article he wrote about Victory Day.

    The only problem of Karlin, is some long term effect of associating his brain too much to left-wing American rabble journalists, as well as weird internet culture, and possibly from reading nonsense criticizing and misunderstanding political concepts like "neoliberalism", when he could have been reading Aristophanes or, at least, recently intelligent writers like Quine.

    , @Bliss

    You see this with intelligent lower class men like Steve Sailer, Derbyshire, Karlin. They are smarter than the average for their class, but they have the mentality of serfs, and are instinctively servile to Jews and Asians.
     
    Any IQist who is not an Ashkenazi jew is suffering from an inferiority complex.

    It is strange that the loudest and proudest proponents of IQism/HBD are white nationalists, who rank not only below Ashkenazi jews but also below the more numerous East Asians.

  108. @dfordoom

    China, Japan, Korea still run smooth, while Western Countries are dysfunctional. There is constant lecturing about low birth-rates, yet Japan has the same issues and doesn’t use mass immigration.
     
    Fertility rates in East Asia are even lower than in the West. These high-IQ societies are committing suicide even faster than European countries.

    Maybe high IQ is dysfunctional and culturally destructive?

    Fertility rates in East Asia are even lower than in the West. These high-IQ societies are committing suicide even faster than European countries.

    Maybe high IQ is dysfunctional and culturally destructive?

    No, abusive employers and uncaring government are.

    …I met a young man named Jou Matsubara, who graduated from Rikkyo Daigaku, a prestigious private college in Japan. Matsubara, who comes from a working-class family, thought he’d achieved the Japanese dream when he graduated from college and got a job at Daiwa House Group, a Japanese home builder.

    The company advertised itself as a great place to work, but Matsubara, who was a wrestler in college, told me it soon became evident that it was anything but. Though company employees left work at 7 p.m. on paper, Matsubara said he was required to work until late at night almost every day. Employees were required to sign off at 7 p.m., even if they were still working, and were given iPads so that they could do so even if they were out of the office at meetings. If they didn’t sign off, they’d get a call on their cellphones brusquely asking them to sign off immediately but keep working, he said. “The amount of time you’re actually working and the amount of time that is recorded you’re working have absolutely no relation to each other,” he said. Matsubara got almost no time off, and was required to take classes to receive real-estate certifications on Tuesdays and Wednesdays, which were days he was told he’d have free. This lifestyle made dating impossible. The closest he got to women, he said, was when his boss would drag him to cabaret clubs, and then make him pick up the tab.

    After a year, the long hours and stress started to affect his health. Matsubara had trouble sleeping, and started hearing voices. He fell into a depression, he said, because the experience he had expected from a regular job and his own experience were so different. Matsubara told me he was taken to the hospital multiple times in an ambulance because he couldn’t breathe. Eventually, he suffered a nervous breakdown. He said the company forced him to resign, and then made him pay back the money he’d saved from living in a company dormitory. (Daiwa House did not return a request for comment.) Matsubara is now living on welfare. “My life that was going smoothly and systematically was destroyed by Daiwa House,” he said. He estimated that out of the 800 people who started with him at Daiwa House, 600 have quit.

    https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2017/07/japan-mystery-low-birth-rate/534291/

    • Replies: @Toronto Russian
    Meanwhile, a tiny town whose authorities actually do something to help young parents enjoys high fertility rate.

    With a population of about 6,000, Nagi feels a world away from Nagoya, and residents cite the lack of busy streets and crowds as reasons why it is a great place to bring up children.

    But they’re not the only benefits: Nagi also pays couples who live there to have children.

    Families receive 100,000 yen ($879) for their first child, 150,000 yen ($1,335) for their second and as much as 400,000 yen ($3,518) for the fifth child born to the same family.

    Nagi has been ramping up payments since 2004, as well as offering other fertility-boosting parental perks, to turbocharge the town’s birth rate and buck Japan’s broader trend of aging populations.

    Perks include subsidized housing, free vaccinations, school allowances and reduced nursery costs.

    And they appear to be working.

    In the neighborhood where the Osakas live, most couples have three or more children because they can and they want to.

    This leaves Nagi in stark contrast to much of Japan.

    Between 2005 and 2014, the town’s fertility rate — based on the average number of children a woman has in her lifetime — doubled from 1.4 to 2.8, to widespread domestic acclaim.

    Since then, Nagi’s total fertility rate has dipped slightly to 2.39 but is still considerably higher than the national average of 1.46.

    https://www.goodnews4youonline.com/index.php/2018/12/28/inside-nagi-cho-the-japanese-town-that-pays-cash-for-kids/
     
  109. @Toronto Russian

    Fertility rates in East Asia are even lower than in the West. These high-IQ societies are committing suicide even faster than European countries.

    Maybe high IQ is dysfunctional and culturally destructive?
     
    No, abusive employers and uncaring government are.

    ...I met a young man named Jou Matsubara, who graduated from Rikkyo Daigaku, a prestigious private college in Japan. Matsubara, who comes from a working-class family, thought he’d achieved the Japanese dream when he graduated from college and got a job at Daiwa House Group, a Japanese home builder.

    The company advertised itself as a great place to work, but Matsubara, who was a wrestler in college, told me it soon became evident that it was anything but. Though company employees left work at 7 p.m. on paper, Matsubara said he was required to work until late at night almost every day. Employees were required to sign off at 7 p.m., even if they were still working, and were given iPads so that they could do so even if they were out of the office at meetings. If they didn’t sign off, they’d get a call on their cellphones brusquely asking them to sign off immediately but keep working, he said. “The amount of time you're actually working and the amount of time that is recorded you're working have absolutely no relation to each other,” he said. Matsubara got almost no time off, and was required to take classes to receive real-estate certifications on Tuesdays and Wednesdays, which were days he was told he’d have free. This lifestyle made dating impossible. The closest he got to women, he said, was when his boss would drag him to cabaret clubs, and then make him pick up the tab.

    After a year, the long hours and stress started to affect his health. Matsubara had trouble sleeping, and started hearing voices. He fell into a depression, he said, because the experience he had expected from a regular job and his own experience were so different. Matsubara told me he was taken to the hospital multiple times in an ambulance because he couldn't breathe. Eventually, he suffered a nervous breakdown. He said the company forced him to resign, and then made him pay back the money he’d saved from living in a company dormitory. (Daiwa House did not return a request for comment.) Matsubara is now living on welfare. “My life that was going smoothly and systematically was destroyed by Daiwa House,” he said. He estimated that out of the 800 people who started with him at Daiwa House, 600 have quit.

    https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2017/07/japan-mystery-low-birth-rate/534291/
     

    Meanwhile, a tiny town whose authorities actually do something to help young parents enjoys high fertility rate.

    With a population of about 6,000, Nagi feels a world away from Nagoya, and residents cite the lack of busy streets and crowds as reasons why it is a great place to bring up children.

    But they’re not the only benefits: Nagi also pays couples who live there to have children.

    Families receive 100,000 yen ($879) for their first child, 150,000 yen ($1,335) for their second and as much as 400,000 yen ($3,518) for the fifth child born to the same family.

    Nagi has been ramping up payments since 2004, as well as offering other fertility-boosting parental perks, to turbocharge the town’s birth rate and buck Japan’s broader trend of aging populations.

    Perks include subsidized housing, free vaccinations, school allowances and reduced nursery costs.

    And they appear to be working.

    In the neighborhood where the Osakas live, most couples have three or more children because they can and they want to.

    This leaves Nagi in stark contrast to much of Japan.

    Between 2005 and 2014, the town’s fertility rate — based on the average number of children a woman has in her lifetime — doubled from 1.4 to 2.8, to widespread domestic acclaim.

    Since then, Nagi’s total fertility rate has dipped slightly to 2.39 but is still considerably higher than the national average of 1.46.

    https://www.goodnews4youonline.com/index.php/2018/12/28/inside-nagi-cho-the-japanese-town-that-pays-cash-for-kids/

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    Its also overwhelmingly agricultural and is a case of self-selection in the population that chooses to move there, as the article you posted cut off a few things:

    1) Generally lower salaries

    2) Shared houses(often three generations)

    3) overwhelmingly lower female salaries(female salaries peak at 20s and decrease from that point on)
  110. @dfordoom

    It has nothing to do with IQ (intelligence). It has to do with intellectualism. No other people are as intellectual as whites – this level of abstraction disconnects you from your instincts and tradition = unhealthy and stupid.

    Whites need to become stupider to become more intelligent.
     
    Yes.

    A good example of intellectualism in action. Some intellectual comes up with a theory (supported by zero evidence) that humans have something called gender as distinct from biological sex. The theory gets elaborated. Gender can be changed - if a man puts on a dress he becomes a woman. The theory gets further elaborated - there are actually dozens of genders! This is all theory of course but intellectuals love theories and have no interest in reality.

    A non-intellectual on the other hand would say, "That's not a woman. It's just a guy wearing a frock."

    To fight this we need an ideology that is both inspirational and non-intellectual.

    HBD is both intellectual and non-inspirational.

    Agreed.

    What people don’t perhaps realize is that high IQ races like Jews and Asians are far less intellectual than whites, and far more practical and earth-bound.

    This is somewhat known with regard to Asians, who are known for avoiding the theoretical and having a practical bent.

    But its also true of Jews. They may spin elaborate word theories, but it’s usually for professional advancement. And Jewish culture proper is extremely earth-bound. The Talmud is often criticized for its concern with physical minutiae and the petty details of day to day life. It is not lofty spirituality. Although the discussion is framed in terms of its spiritual impact.

    Whites are the most purely intellectual of all the races, the most brainy, the race which developed this one organ at the expense of the rest of the body more than any other.

    Its also why whites developed the entire theoretical framework of the modern world and the world of technology and science, and have made most major contributions in all theoretical fields.

    But it is clearly something that comes at too steep a cost. And whites have to become stupider, more like the Jews and Asians, to become more intelligent.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    You writing again as an American redneck, attempting to claim the problems of America, are a result of enlightenment and intelligentsia.

    You reduce "whites" as a single category, like in the US census, as if lawn-conscious anglosaxons of New Haven, would have the same mentality as tough Russians.

    And then you contrast Whites to additional categories of Jews and Asians, even though in reality Jews and Asians in America, are culturally became a possibly more annoyingly messianic version of anglosaxons, not less than the American Italians, Irish, Germans and probably even Lebanese.and Pakistanis.

    For example, try to find a "land of poets and thinkers" - , in the soul of a German American like Trump - and then return with your silly theory as if the problem of Trump, is too much intellectualism, and Goethe and Schiller.

    , @Bliss

    Whites are the most purely intellectual of all the races, the most brainy, the race which developed this one organ at the expense of the rest of the body more than any other.
     
    That is an absurd generalization. Whites are far more into (and far better at) athletics, sports, adventures, the outdoors and other physical activities, than Jews or Asians.

    Its also why whites developed the entire theoretical framework of the modern world and the world of technology and science, and have made most major contributions in all theoretical fields.
     
    You are exaggerating. There is no modern science and technology without algebra and the decimal numeral system. Neither of which arose in Europe.
  111. @Jaakko Raipala
    Just about nothing would be less popular here than a message of "racial supremacy". The entire ethnic Finnish national project was about proving Aryan racial supremacists wrong and following examples like Japan to prove that non-Aryan peoples can form successful modern nations. Ethnonationalistic Finns tend to remember the long struggle against Germanic tyrants and their revolting racial supremacist ideologies.

    Of course, that means that Finns are very vulnerable to identifying with commie "hero of oppressed people" icons like Nelson Mandela etc since we were always oh so similarly oppressed. Eg. Irish nationalism has the same big problem of identifying more with the oppressed colonized people of color rather than evil Germanic colonizers. But a good side of it is that it's hard to promote "white guilt" ideas here. Finland is as much of a colonized society as any place in Africa so those people have no excuse.

    All European great powers tended to support the rule of Germanic tyrants. Of great powers around WWI era only Japan was on our side. Why would some message of white superiority over Asians even be popular when European powers have generally been terrible towards us but Asian powers have been neutral or supportive?

    Not necessarily racial supremacy. That has implications of wanting to rule and conquer others and the refusal to see any value in other groups.

    Race is an abstract Enlightenment concept anyways. I am talking about something more earthy and concrete.

    Most groups with a distinct culture quietly view themselves as in some way, often indefinable, as the Earth’s premier people. It sounds absurd to us, but even countries with zero tangible reasons to be proud secretly think this way.

    I would argue that some such belief may be essential to group mental health. It seems to function as a kind of robust first-line of psychological defense. The Japanese believe this, the Chinese willingly believe this, beck, the Thais think this about themselves. I’ve had Mexican friends who patiently explained to me the superior virtues of his countrymen, which no white man could fully comprehend. And the Jews, as we know, certainly believe this.

    Whites, alone, don’t. Again, the WEIRD people.

    We need to stop framing this in terms of what the Germans did. We need to think in other terms.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    You're lecturing about how the Finnish should be when they've just demonstrated overwhelmingly non-cuck behavior.

    This sheer chupatz of rambling about this when you clearly have never been to Finland, don't have Finnish friends, and have zero understanding of the region - let alone how nationalism is envisioned there, is really quite amazing.

    Not all whites are the same. Ultranationalism in Finland is probably more about irredentism about Karelia imo.

    , @dfordoom

    Most groups with a distinct culture quietly view themselves as in some way, often indefinable, as the Earth’s premier people.

     


    Whites, alone, don’t. Again, the WEIRD people.
     
    Because whites don't have a group identity. They don't have a racial or ethnic identity. White societies are just collections of individuals.

    White people scarcely even have family identities. Marriage is just a temporary sexual arrangement. Children are an obstacle to what really matters - individual enrichment.

    Individual white people usually see themselves as the smartest most virtuous people who ever walked the Earth. But they have no sense of belonging to anything outside themselves. Even their virtuousness is selfish - it's done to gain status points which can be useful in a career.

    Is this genetic or cultural? I'm inclined to think it's cultural. The collapse of Christianity (which was clearly a dying religion by the mid-18th century) and the rise of liberalism and capitalism (which were made possible by the collapse of Christianity) destroyed western society. All that was left was a mass of individuals.

    Nationalism was a failed 19th century attempt to create a sense of identity.
  112. @Jaakko Raipala
    Just about nothing would be less popular here than a message of "racial supremacy". The entire ethnic Finnish national project was about proving Aryan racial supremacists wrong and following examples like Japan to prove that non-Aryan peoples can form successful modern nations. Ethnonationalistic Finns tend to remember the long struggle against Germanic tyrants and their revolting racial supremacist ideologies.

    Of course, that means that Finns are very vulnerable to identifying with commie "hero of oppressed people" icons like Nelson Mandela etc since we were always oh so similarly oppressed. Eg. Irish nationalism has the same big problem of identifying more with the oppressed colonized people of color rather than evil Germanic colonizers. But a good side of it is that it's hard to promote "white guilt" ideas here. Finland is as much of a colonized society as any place in Africa so those people have no excuse.

    All European great powers tended to support the rule of Germanic tyrants. Of great powers around WWI era only Japan was on our side. Why would some message of white superiority over Asians even be popular when European powers have generally been terrible towards us but Asian powers have been neutral or supportive?

    …Ethnonationalistic Finns tend to remember the long struggle against Germanic tyrants and their revolting racial supremacist ideologies.

    Who were the Germanic tyrants? Swedes?

    I have heard stories that Finnish economy, e.g. Nokia at its heyday, was largely run by the local Swedes. There was also the anti-Finnish behaviour in Sweden a generation or two ago – assimilate the Finnish immigrants. And the hockey fights.

    • Replies: @Jaakko Raipala
    What the fuck? Nokia's hayday was a couple of decades ago and it was run by ethnic Finns at that time. Most privileges were immediately canceled following the revolution and the Germanic hold in education and business lasted only as long as the last pre-revolutionary elites were alive. Finns had taken over everything except old wealth families by 1950s.

    During the industrial revolution in the 19th century and early 20th century, industries were mostly run by Germans, though there was some occasional Scot or other random investor from the more industrialized countries. I googled up a list of the old wealthy families and the non-Finnish names in this list are almost entirely German - Fazer, Paulig, von Rettig etc. However all these families miraculously started identifying as "Swedes" after World War II.

    Trade was controlled by Swedes and/or Germans for all of history and Finns were shut out of it - there were centuries of struggle over control of Baltic trade between the state of Sweden and German trade federations. The Russians gradually relaxed those rules. Eg. my family became very wealthy overnight thanks to the Russian conquest of 1809 as the Russians immediately allowed even ethnic Finns to trade with foreign countries and my family owned a lot of trees that could be sold for better prices in the international market (my family soon owned a bunch of steam ships taking it to Britain).

    There are also the old aristocratic families but "Swedish aristocrats" aren't very Swedish by blood, they're a mixed bunch with roots all over Europe and Russia. The pureblood Swedes are the fishermen and farmers on the coast. Aminoff - bunch of Russians who identify as Swedes. Mannerheim - bunch of Germans who identify as Swedes. Ehrnrooth - Germans. Von Wright - Scots. Actually I can't think of a single Swedish aristocratic family here that doesn't have its origins elsewhere. Sweden was constantly importing elites, especially German military expertise, and they intermarried to form a class of mixed but mostly German roots.
  113. @Toronto Russian
    Meanwhile, a tiny town whose authorities actually do something to help young parents enjoys high fertility rate.

    With a population of about 6,000, Nagi feels a world away from Nagoya, and residents cite the lack of busy streets and crowds as reasons why it is a great place to bring up children.

    But they’re not the only benefits: Nagi also pays couples who live there to have children.

    Families receive 100,000 yen ($879) for their first child, 150,000 yen ($1,335) for their second and as much as 400,000 yen ($3,518) for the fifth child born to the same family.

    Nagi has been ramping up payments since 2004, as well as offering other fertility-boosting parental perks, to turbocharge the town’s birth rate and buck Japan’s broader trend of aging populations.

    Perks include subsidized housing, free vaccinations, school allowances and reduced nursery costs.

    And they appear to be working.

    In the neighborhood where the Osakas live, most couples have three or more children because they can and they want to.

    This leaves Nagi in stark contrast to much of Japan.

    Between 2005 and 2014, the town’s fertility rate — based on the average number of children a woman has in her lifetime — doubled from 1.4 to 2.8, to widespread domestic acclaim.

    Since then, Nagi’s total fertility rate has dipped slightly to 2.39 but is still considerably higher than the national average of 1.46.

    https://www.goodnews4youonline.com/index.php/2018/12/28/inside-nagi-cho-the-japanese-town-that-pays-cash-for-kids/
     

    Its also overwhelmingly agricultural and is a case of self-selection in the population that chooses to move there, as the article you posted cut off a few things:

    1) Generally lower salaries

    2) Shared houses(often three generations)

    3) overwhelmingly lower female salaries(female salaries peak at 20s and decrease from that point on)

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    That said, in all honesty, self-selection isn't hardly a bad strategy at all and its something that should be analyzed and used more when building policy.

    Trying to force people to behave a certain way against what they wish is like pushing water upstream; perhaps possible but difficult. Its always better whenever possible to find individuals for a project or goal who already have it in mind to be cooperative.

    Insofar as traits are hereditary, this also means that such policies combined with the same population provide both the nature and nurture outgrow their rivals so as long as it is cushioned from other disruptive influences.
    , @Toronto Russian
    It's still a town, with jobs that don't involve shoveling dung (Nagi is famous for its wagyu beef and boasts a small manufacturing center where 19 companies have factories) and not scary for normal city people wanting a quieter life to move to. Not 'free hectare of empty land in the Far East' which is the Russian program aimed at populating the countryside.

    https://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&nv=1&sl=ru&sp=nmt4&tl=en&u=https://www.newsvl.ru/vlad/2018/10/29/175003/

    It turned out that 85% of "hectarists" claimed the land, simply yielding to the herd instinct and advertising on TV. They simply have no plans, and most importantly, no money for the development of land. They do not want to pull an electric cable jointly or make a road. Even those who have money have either little experience in construction, or they have no idea what to do with 90 acres out of 100. Plans for the overwhelming majority of hectares do not go beyond the summer house in an ecologically clean place and vegetable garden. Most of the “latifundists” limited themselves to a single sightseeing tour to their hectare, with a statement of the fact that there is no end of work there. At this participation in the program for them ended.
     
    , @dfordoom

    Its also overwhelmingly agricultural
     
    Urbanisation may be the single biggest factor in demographic collapse.

    The irony is that it's difficult to see how urbanisation can be reversed without an enormous decrease in population. To increase fertility rates we need to decrease the population!
  114. @AaronB
    Not necessarily racial supremacy. That has implications of wanting to rule and conquer others and the refusal to see any value in other groups.

    Race is an abstract Enlightenment concept anyways. I am talking about something more earthy and concrete.

    Most groups with a distinct culture quietly view themselves as in some way, often indefinable, as the Earth's premier people. It sounds absurd to us, but even countries with zero tangible reasons to be proud secretly think this way.

    I would argue that some such belief may be essential to group mental health. It seems to function as a kind of robust first-line of psychological defense. The Japanese believe this, the Chinese willingly believe this, beck, the Thais think this about themselves. I've had Mexican friends who patiently explained to me the superior virtues of his countrymen, which no white man could fully comprehend. And the Jews, as we know, certainly believe this.

    Whites, alone, don't. Again, the WEIRD people.

    We need to stop framing this in terms of what the Germans did. We need to think in other terms.

    You’re lecturing about how the Finnish should be when they’ve just demonstrated overwhelmingly non-cuck behavior.

    This sheer chupatz of rambling about this when you clearly have never been to Finland, don’t have Finnish friends, and have zero understanding of the region – let alone how nationalism is envisioned there, is really quite amazing.

    Not all whites are the same. Ultranationalism in Finland is probably more about irredentism about Karelia imo.

    • Replies: @AaronB
    Its just amore refined form of cuckery. The whole alt right is just a more refined manifestation of the basic disease afflicting the West.

    This sheer chutzpa...

     

    Spare me your "outrage". Not interested in people trying to police the conversation and making rules about who is allowed to say what depending on his group.

    That's SJW territory.

    I lose more respect for you after each comment.
  115. @Daniel Chieh
    You're lecturing about how the Finnish should be when they've just demonstrated overwhelmingly non-cuck behavior.

    This sheer chupatz of rambling about this when you clearly have never been to Finland, don't have Finnish friends, and have zero understanding of the region - let alone how nationalism is envisioned there, is really quite amazing.

    Not all whites are the same. Ultranationalism in Finland is probably more about irredentism about Karelia imo.

    Its just amore refined form of cuckery. The whole alt right is just a more refined manifestation of the basic disease afflicting the West.

    This sheer chutzpa…

    Spare me your “outrage”. Not interested in people trying to police the conversation and making rules about who is allowed to say what depending on his group.

    That’s SJW territory.

    I lose more respect for you after each comment.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh

    I lose more respect for you after each comment.
     
    And I care because?
  116. @Daniel Chieh
    Its also overwhelmingly agricultural and is a case of self-selection in the population that chooses to move there, as the article you posted cut off a few things:

    1) Generally lower salaries

    2) Shared houses(often three generations)

    3) overwhelmingly lower female salaries(female salaries peak at 20s and decrease from that point on)

    That said, in all honesty, self-selection isn’t hardly a bad strategy at all and its something that should be analyzed and used more when building policy.

    Trying to force people to behave a certain way against what they wish is like pushing water upstream; perhaps possible but difficult. Its always better whenever possible to find individuals for a project or goal who already have it in mind to be cooperative.

    Insofar as traits are hereditary, this also means that such policies combined with the same population provide both the nature and nurture outgrow their rivals so as long as it is cushioned from other disruptive influences.

    • Replies: @Toronto Russian

    That said, in all honesty, self-selection isn’t hardly a bad strategy at all and its something that should be analyzed and used more when building policy.
     
    Self-selection gets a bad rap because this idea in radical form naturally comes to antisocial crazies and cultists. But the Japanese who aren't at home with the salaryman culture and want to have time and space to raise families (and not become paupers because of their unconventional choice, hence financial assistance is needed) - are nothing but psychologically and historically normal. One of historic Japanese traits, as 19th century travelers noted, was that they loved to interact with children.

    But no less touching on the part of adult Japanese is the love for children in general, even if they are strangers and even unknown. I remember, I already had a chance to mark this characteristic. Adults at meetings, whether on the street, in the courtyard, will never pass by without caressing the child or saying a kind word, a good wish. And so that someone decided to offend a child, I never saw this here, as I did not see any fights between children or adults. I will not argue that there were no fights at all, but, I repeat, I have never seen them, and this means something, as a feature of popular morals. But I often have to see adults, respectable people and even old people personally take a lively part in children's amusements: they fly kites with their children and grandchildren, play a shuttlecock, shoot arrows, catch dragonflies and beetles to tie a string around their leg and let them fly, or they make wagons, windmills, boats, etc. from wood. And this is not just to amuse the children, but it seems that they themselves also enjoy playing, so looking at them you sometimes think - what sweet and kind grown-up children they are!..
     
  117. @AaronB
    Its just amore refined form of cuckery. The whole alt right is just a more refined manifestation of the basic disease afflicting the West.

    This sheer chutzpa...

     

    Spare me your "outrage". Not interested in people trying to police the conversation and making rules about who is allowed to say what depending on his group.

    That's SJW territory.

    I lose more respect for you after each comment.

    I lose more respect for you after each comment.

    And I care because?

  118. @Boswald Bollocksworth
    HBD is unlikely to ever go mainstream in America, tho I could see it becoming widely known and more or less included in certain quantitative academic disciplines. For example, Garret Jones hasn’t been burned at the stake yet, just replace “IQ” with “ability” the way population geneticists say “population” instead of “race”.

    I’ve explained HBD to family in America, had them accept it, shocked, but accept it. Then a few months later they’ve totally forgotten about it and are wondering why the local schools, filled with Somalis, are so bad. The conditioning infrastructure works.

    “Mainstream” ?
    Haha
    There is no such animal.

    The more the bagel boys tighten their censorship, the more eyeballs will simply slip through their dinosaur media!

  119. @AaronB
    Agreed.

    What people don't perhaps realize is that high IQ races like Jews and Asians are far less intellectual than whites, and far more practical and earth-bound.

    This is somewhat known with regard to Asians, who are known for avoiding the theoretical and having a practical bent.

    But its also true of Jews. They may spin elaborate word theories, but it's usually for professional advancement. And Jewish culture proper is extremely earth-bound. The Talmud is often criticized for its concern with physical minutiae and the petty details of day to day life. It is not lofty spirituality. Although the discussion is framed in terms of its spiritual impact.

    Whites are the most purely intellectual of all the races, the most brainy, the race which developed this one organ at the expense of the rest of the body more than any other.

    Its also why whites developed the entire theoretical framework of the modern world and the world of technology and science, and have made most major contributions in all theoretical fields.

    But it is clearly something that comes at too steep a cost. And whites have to become stupider, more like the Jews and Asians, to become more intelligent.

    You writing again as an American redneck, attempting to claim the problems of America, are a result of enlightenment and intelligentsia.

    You reduce “whites” as a single category, like in the US census, as if lawn-conscious anglosaxons of New Haven, would have the same mentality as tough Russians.

    And then you contrast Whites to additional categories of Jews and Asians, even though in reality Jews and Asians in America, are culturally became a possibly more annoyingly messianic version of anglosaxons, not less than the American Italians, Irish, Germans and probably even Lebanese.and Pakistanis.

    For example, try to find a “land of poets and thinkers” – , in the soul of a German American like Trump – and then return with your silly theory as if the problem of Trump, is too much intellectualism, and Goethe and Schiller.

    • Replies: @AaronB
    Lol I offended your "religion" :)

    I forgot you're one of those true believers in the Enlightenment. Your innocence and naivete are refreshing, but the hour is too late for such childishishnes.

    You are a throwback to an earlier era, when it was still possible to believe in a simple, uncomplicated way in the "high culture" of the West. I suppose it's a testament to the health of Russia that such people as you are still produced there.

    Goethe himself wrote eloquently on the growing Western tendency towards being divorced from the body and instincts and living too much in the mind, and the German Romantics as a whole came into being partly as a response to this tendency.

    Anyways I'm not opposed to intelligence and high culture - quite the opposite. These things are rooted in the sensuous side of life - they unite the abstract and the sensuous. I am opposed to something more specific - abstraction and theory, or rather, too much of it, and the neglect of everything else.
  120. @Dmitry
    You writing again as an American redneck, attempting to claim the problems of America, are a result of enlightenment and intelligentsia.

    You reduce "whites" as a single category, like in the US census, as if lawn-conscious anglosaxons of New Haven, would have the same mentality as tough Russians.

    And then you contrast Whites to additional categories of Jews and Asians, even though in reality Jews and Asians in America, are culturally became a possibly more annoyingly messianic version of anglosaxons, not less than the American Italians, Irish, Germans and probably even Lebanese.and Pakistanis.

    For example, try to find a "land of poets and thinkers" - , in the soul of a German American like Trump - and then return with your silly theory as if the problem of Trump, is too much intellectualism, and Goethe and Schiller.

    Lol I offended your “religion” 🙂

    I forgot you’re one of those true believers in the Enlightenment. Your innocence and naivete are refreshing, but the hour is too late for such childishishnes.

    You are a throwback to an earlier era, when it was still possible to believe in a simple, uncomplicated way in the “high culture” of the West. I suppose it’s a testament to the health of Russia that such people as you are still produced there.

    Goethe himself wrote eloquently on the growing Western tendency towards being divorced from the body and instincts and living too much in the mind, and the German Romantics as a whole came into being partly as a response to this tendency.

    Anyways I’m not opposed to intelligence and high culture – quite the opposite. These things are rooted in the sensuous side of life – they unite the abstract and the sensuous. I am opposed to something more specific – abstraction and theory, or rather, too much of it, and the neglect of everything else.

    • Replies: @AaronB
    What Goethe called "gray theory".

    "Green is life, gray is theory..."
    , @Dmitry
    Contrast between body and spirit was a theme for Goethe. However, Goethe connects sensuous side of life to Greece and Italy. (And he was going to voyage in Rome, to sleep with young Italian women, while dreaming about the Ancient Romans, if I remember an essay I read about him).

    For Goethe, this was rebellion to the strictness of body-denying religion (which, I need not write - originated in the Middle East).

    So it does not exactly match the qualities you attribute to US census based categorizations. Something which might be relevant to your theories, is the story of Faust. Although here the contrast of the soul and the material/physical success.

    Perhaps German Reader, if he is still writing, will explain the topic better.

  121. @dfordoom

    Every single High-IQ nation is not reproducing at replacement level rates. Why then do these HBDers not ask the question of whether High-IQ is good thing or not? Or rather, if the comforts and luxuries of the modern world are actually destructive?
     
    HBDers are like junkies. They don't want to stop taking the drugs that are killing them. The drugs that are killing them are feminism, sexual degeneracy, hedonism, consumerism, technology worship, trash culture, atheism, capitalism. They think they can keep all those things and still have a civilisation.

    They can see society going down the toilet but they refuse to accept that this is happening because their society has become decadent and worthless. So they look for scapegoats. It's the Jews! It's the darkies! It's the Muslims! It's those awful low-IQ people!

    They don't want to face unpleasant realities, such as the fact that people in our society are too selfish to have children, too self-indulgent to make their marriages work, too greedy to do anything to save their own societies. The fault lies within us.

    I agree some of these ideologies and websites, operate as a sink for mentally ill and angry people.

    They are designed to attract the low quality and unpleasant people, and give them an excuse to express their hostility in a way that will discredit a particular set of views (unusually today on internet commentaries).

    If I was a conspiracy theorist, I would imagine they were deployed as a way to scare away normal people, from actually sensible policies, like anti-immigration or selective immigration.

    However, in reality, this conspiracy only exists in a very open way – for example, when the CNN and NYT promotes “Richard Spencer” as the “most important American nationalist”, during the 2016 President’s election, to try to lose some votes for Trump.

    They don’t want to face unpleasant realities, such as the fact that people in our society are too selfish to have children, too self-indulgent to make their marriages work

    Because your desire is “social conservatism.” But a large proportion of people opposed to unfiltered third-world immigration to first or second world countries, do not necessarily care about “social conservatism”.

    For example, all intelligent liberals, should oppose third-world immigration (or at least unfiltered such immigration) to their country, as the hyper-liberal policy of countries like Netherlands, requires a comparatively higher level of cultural and possibly human capital development, than a socially conservative policy.

    • Replies: @dfordoom

    Because your desire is “social conservatism.” But a large proportion of people opposed to unfiltered third-world immigration to first or second world countries, do not necessarily care about “social conservatism”.
     
    That's why they're going to lose. Only a healthy society can save itself from that third-world immigration. A society obsessed with money, status and pleasure simply will not save itself.

    And a liberal society will never do anything to save itself from being overrun. It's just not the way liberals or liberal societies operate. Liberalism is a religion. Expecting a liberal to oppose immigration is crazy. Some liberals will express concerns, some will worry that maybe immigration is going too fast, but at the end of the day liberals (which in the Anglosphere includes all mainstream conservatives) will still support mass immigration. They can't do anything else.

    The idea that moderate or "intelligent" liberals can be potential allies is the purest fantasy.

    Social conservatism isn't a personal preference. It's essential to the survival of society.
  122. @AaronB
    Lol I offended your "religion" :)

    I forgot you're one of those true believers in the Enlightenment. Your innocence and naivete are refreshing, but the hour is too late for such childishishnes.

    You are a throwback to an earlier era, when it was still possible to believe in a simple, uncomplicated way in the "high culture" of the West. I suppose it's a testament to the health of Russia that such people as you are still produced there.

    Goethe himself wrote eloquently on the growing Western tendency towards being divorced from the body and instincts and living too much in the mind, and the German Romantics as a whole came into being partly as a response to this tendency.

    Anyways I'm not opposed to intelligence and high culture - quite the opposite. These things are rooted in the sensuous side of life - they unite the abstract and the sensuous. I am opposed to something more specific - abstraction and theory, or rather, too much of it, and the neglect of everything else.

    What Goethe called “gray theory”.

    “Green is life, gray is theory…”

  123. @Scalper
    Ah, finally an HBD follower not talking out of his ass... do tell, in how many non liberal countries have you resided in your 14 years of life?

    Ah, finally an HBD follower not talking out of his ass… do tell, in how many non liberal countries have you resided in your 14 years of life?

    Although you are not very serious, I currently live in China.

    • Replies: @Scalper
    China is already a liberal country in many aspects. No the situation there is not comparable to the idiocy going on in most of the West, but China is by no means a non-liberal/absolutist country. Like so many 4chan HBD "reactionary warriors" you really have no fucking idea of what you are talking about, when you refer to a "non liberal" country, or have you?

    Even Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy, the tired examples of illiberalism, were surprisingly liberal compared to say Absolutist Spain or France.

  124. @AaronB
    Lol I offended your "religion" :)

    I forgot you're one of those true believers in the Enlightenment. Your innocence and naivete are refreshing, but the hour is too late for such childishishnes.

    You are a throwback to an earlier era, when it was still possible to believe in a simple, uncomplicated way in the "high culture" of the West. I suppose it's a testament to the health of Russia that such people as you are still produced there.

    Goethe himself wrote eloquently on the growing Western tendency towards being divorced from the body and instincts and living too much in the mind, and the German Romantics as a whole came into being partly as a response to this tendency.

    Anyways I'm not opposed to intelligence and high culture - quite the opposite. These things are rooted in the sensuous side of life - they unite the abstract and the sensuous. I am opposed to something more specific - abstraction and theory, or rather, too much of it, and the neglect of everything else.

    Contrast between body and spirit was a theme for Goethe. However, Goethe connects sensuous side of life to Greece and Italy. (And he was going to voyage in Rome, to sleep with young Italian women, while dreaming about the Ancient Romans, if I remember an essay I read about him).

    For Goethe, this was rebellion to the strictness of body-denying religion (which, I need not write – originated in the Middle East).

    So it does not exactly match the qualities you attribute to US census based categorizations. Something which might be relevant to your theories, is the story of Faust. Although here the contrast of the soul and the material/physical success.

    Perhaps German Reader, if he is still writing, will explain the topic better.

    • Replies: @Bliss

    For Goethe, this was rebellion to the strictness of body-denying religion (which, I need not write – originated in the Middle East).
     
    Wrong. Body-denying spirituality originated in India not the Middle-East. Middle-Eastern religions are so attached to the body they imagine it will be resurrected after death in the afterlife and then live forever in that form in heaven or hell.
    , @AaronB
    Yes, Goethe is indeed a key figure in diagnosing the growing problem with European culture. He wrote an entire book on his travels to Italy, which I read when I was much younger.

    Around this time, certain distinctive attitudes came into being that are still with is today. Northern Europeans began looking to the global South for relief from the growing abstraction of the North. This was later extended to the Near East, and beyond. Goethe also received inspiration from Persian Muslim culture, and wrote s book of poems about this, which celebrates a more sensuous and body centered form of life.
  125. @AaronB
    You are right, and this is why I say the revolution will come from a splinter sect that breaks off from the elite. High caliber men bred to leadership and status.

    Unfortunately, its almost impossible to eradicate a servile state of mind and the mentality and bad habits of the socially inferior. Putting a clever brain in a lower class body does not a leader make.

    You see this with intelligent lower class men like Steve Sailer, Derbyshire, Karlin. They are smarter than the average for their class, but they have the mentality of serfs, and are instinctively servile to Jews and Asians.

    Occasionally, the lower classes produce a true leader with the right stuff, but Spartacus's are rare - and his band of lower class rabble ultimately couldn't remain disciplined and loyal. Another factor in why revolutions from the bottom don't succeed - the quality of the followers, even if the leadership is good.

    It’s not fair – and not only from politeness or the fact he serves as our online cult leader – to associate Karlin with rabble.

    If you remember, he proved how he is quite independent thinking, if ironically, with the idiotic and rude article he wrote about Victory Day.

    The only problem of Karlin, is some long term effect of associating his brain too much to left-wing American rabble journalists, as well as weird internet culture, and possibly from reading nonsense criticizing and misunderstanding political concepts like “neoliberalism”, when he could have been reading Aristophanes or, at least, recently intelligent writers like Quine.

  126. @Jaakko Raipala
    That's the Ural-Altaic theory. Back in the early days of linguistics, it was widely believed that Finno-Ugric, Turkic, Mongolic, Korean and Japanese are a language family and it was taken for granted by many that language = ethnicity = blood so we were supposed to make one race as well.

    This was before photography had become really common so it wasn't actually widely known that we don't really look alike. 19th century Finns tended to consider themselves Asians and it was a pretty big disappointment to many when people started going to Mongolia to find out that we actually resemble Swedes and Russians much more.

    The idea of a Ural-Altaic language family has pretty much died too because it was based on circumstancial evidence (eg these languages are all agglutinative unlike the neighboring Indo-European, Chinese and Semitic languages and at first those were the well understood language so agglutination seemed like a strange and unusual feature - but then as more languages were studied it was found out that agglutinative languages are actually common everywhere in the world).

    In the genetic maps, you can see genetic connection of Finnish nationality, even people like Mari people.

    For example, there is genetic connection to the maps of Finnish people, to Yoshkar-Ola (which was highlighting yellow to Finnish people, in the red to green genetic maps). Which is quite ridiculous, when you can consider the extent of differences of their life to the people of Helsinki.

  127. @Beckow

    ...Ethnonationalistic Finns tend to remember the long struggle against Germanic tyrants and their revolting racial supremacist ideologies.
     
    Who were the Germanic tyrants? Swedes?

    I have heard stories that Finnish economy, e.g. Nokia at its heyday, was largely run by the local Swedes. There was also the anti-Finnish behaviour in Sweden a generation or two ago - assimilate the Finnish immigrants. And the hockey fights.

    What the fuck? Nokia’s hayday was a couple of decades ago and it was run by ethnic Finns at that time. Most privileges were immediately canceled following the revolution and the Germanic hold in education and business lasted only as long as the last pre-revolutionary elites were alive. Finns had taken over everything except old wealth families by 1950s.

    During the industrial revolution in the 19th century and early 20th century, industries were mostly run by Germans, though there was some occasional Scot or other random investor from the more industrialized countries. I googled up a list of the old wealthy families and the non-Finnish names in this list are almost entirely German – Fazer, Paulig, von Rettig etc. However all these families miraculously started identifying as “Swedes” after World War II.

    Trade was controlled by Swedes and/or Germans for all of history and Finns were shut out of it – there were centuries of struggle over control of Baltic trade between the state of Sweden and German trade federations. The Russians gradually relaxed those rules. Eg. my family became very wealthy overnight thanks to the Russian conquest of 1809 as the Russians immediately allowed even ethnic Finns to trade with foreign countries and my family owned a lot of trees that could be sold for better prices in the international market (my family soon owned a bunch of steam ships taking it to Britain).

    There are also the old aristocratic families but “Swedish aristocrats” aren’t very Swedish by blood, they’re a mixed bunch with roots all over Europe and Russia. The pureblood Swedes are the fishermen and farmers on the coast. Aminoff – bunch of Russians who identify as Swedes. Mannerheim – bunch of Germans who identify as Swedes. Ehrnrooth – Germans. Von Wright – Scots. Actually I can’t think of a single Swedish aristocratic family here that doesn’t have its origins elsewhere. Sweden was constantly importing elites, especially German military expertise, and they intermarried to form a class of mixed but mostly German roots.

    • Replies: @Beckow

    ...Germanic hold in education and business lasted only as long as the last pre-revolutionary elites were alive. Finns had taken over everything except old wealth families by 1950s.
     
    It is interesting that what many outsiders (like me) see as past Swedish elite in Finland, had a much more varied background. I knew about the Mannerheim family, but I though that in general the business and other elites were Swedish in origin. Was the language in higher education until 1900 (or 1950's) German or Swedish?

    When Sweden was riding hight, e.g. the 30-year war, or the invasion of the east and the Poltava battle in early 18.th century, a lot of their foot soldiers were Finnish, I am assuming they were conscripted peasants.

    I heard about the Nokia 'Swedish' roots from a Finnish Swede, so maybe there is the usual self-referential exaggeration.
  128. @Hyperborean

    On the other hand if you’re a conservative then you must logically support open borders. Because open borders is good for corporate profits. And if you’re a conservative nothing matters besides corporate profits.

    The whole idea of right-wing anti-immigration or right-wing nationalist parties is a logical absurdity. Such parties cannot succeed. Globalism is a right-wing ideology.
     
    Most of Anglo-Saxon conservativism is really Manchester Liberalism in disguise, but there is no reason why that needs to be the case for other cultures.

    Most of Anglo-Saxon conservativism is really Manchester Liberalism in disguise, but there is no reason why that needs to be the case for other cultures.

    Yes. As used in the Anglosphere the word conservative is not just misleading but deliberately misleading. There ain’t nothin’ conservative (in the sense in which the word is understood in everyday life) about Anglosphere conservatives.

    Some of the voters who foolishly vote for conservative parties really do have a genuinely conservative mindset but they seem to be entirely incapable of comprehending that they’ve been conned.

  129. @Hyperborean
    In reality, life in a non-liberal state is pretty normal. People's culture/ethnicity would be more important in determining satisfaction of life.

    Well, it may be more common but it is definitely not better for development and scientific progress. The innovative and individualistic culture within the Hajnal line rocks. I’m trying my best to somehow import individualism & innovation into NE Asia ASAP which may require genetic engineering. You guys already have this thing I’m desperately trying to obtain and shouldn’t lose it.

  130. @Jaakko Raipala
    What the fuck? Nokia's hayday was a couple of decades ago and it was run by ethnic Finns at that time. Most privileges were immediately canceled following the revolution and the Germanic hold in education and business lasted only as long as the last pre-revolutionary elites were alive. Finns had taken over everything except old wealth families by 1950s.

    During the industrial revolution in the 19th century and early 20th century, industries were mostly run by Germans, though there was some occasional Scot or other random investor from the more industrialized countries. I googled up a list of the old wealthy families and the non-Finnish names in this list are almost entirely German - Fazer, Paulig, von Rettig etc. However all these families miraculously started identifying as "Swedes" after World War II.

    Trade was controlled by Swedes and/or Germans for all of history and Finns were shut out of it - there were centuries of struggle over control of Baltic trade between the state of Sweden and German trade federations. The Russians gradually relaxed those rules. Eg. my family became very wealthy overnight thanks to the Russian conquest of 1809 as the Russians immediately allowed even ethnic Finns to trade with foreign countries and my family owned a lot of trees that could be sold for better prices in the international market (my family soon owned a bunch of steam ships taking it to Britain).

    There are also the old aristocratic families but "Swedish aristocrats" aren't very Swedish by blood, they're a mixed bunch with roots all over Europe and Russia. The pureblood Swedes are the fishermen and farmers on the coast. Aminoff - bunch of Russians who identify as Swedes. Mannerheim - bunch of Germans who identify as Swedes. Ehrnrooth - Germans. Von Wright - Scots. Actually I can't think of a single Swedish aristocratic family here that doesn't have its origins elsewhere. Sweden was constantly importing elites, especially German military expertise, and they intermarried to form a class of mixed but mostly German roots.

    …Germanic hold in education and business lasted only as long as the last pre-revolutionary elites were alive. Finns had taken over everything except old wealth families by 1950s.

    It is interesting that what many outsiders (like me) see as past Swedish elite in Finland, had a much more varied background. I knew about the Mannerheim family, but I though that in general the business and other elites were Swedish in origin. Was the language in higher education until 1900 (or 1950’s) German or Swedish?

    When Sweden was riding hight, e.g. the 30-year war, or the invasion of the east and the Poltava battle in early 18.th century, a lot of their foot soldiers were Finnish, I am assuming they were conscripted peasants.

    I heard about the Nokia ‘Swedish‘ roots from a Finnish Swede, so maybe there is the usual self-referential exaggeration.

    • Replies: @Jaakko Raipala
    Nokia was founded in the 19th century and at that time it was owned by a bunch of Swedes and Germans and foreign investors. It is a very old company that used to produce everything from rubber boots to TVs but once their cell phone business shot up they separated all the old parts so effectively the 19th century Nokia is in separate companies now (still making rubber boots).

    The language of higher education in the 19th century was still theoretically Latin but in practice they used a lot of Swedish or German. Finnish was banned until Alexander II 's personal orders but not a lot of Finnish was used until the 20th century when aristocratic privilege stopped being the main way of getting in and Finns started coming.

    If you want to study something like science or engineering, Swedish and Finnish are too small and you have to learn a bigger language. In practice that used to mean German and the teachers would just tell you to read some of the big works on the subject which were all in German even if the language of the lectures was Latin (or Swedish or even Finnish). German is very easy for Swedes to pick up and not easy for Finns. Today of course if you sign up for a university course in Finnish or Swedish they'll usually just tell you to read a bunch of books in English.

    The military was actually one place where Finns could have careers and some aristocratic families have part Finnish roots because of Finns who were promoted due to military success, though they always quickly intermarried and Germanized. Of course it was still hard since the language was either Swedish or German. One unusual thing about Finland as a colony was that the landowners largely remained ethnic Finns and landowners were granted tax privileges if they could equip a cavalryman etc so they functioned as a sort of a pseudo-knight class in those wars.

    Finnish landowners were basically a puppet elite class that made rebellion hard because local Finnish elites would be loyal to the King (or later Tsar) rather than any Finnish national ambition.
  131. @Dmitry
    Contrast between body and spirit was a theme for Goethe. However, Goethe connects sensuous side of life to Greece and Italy. (And he was going to voyage in Rome, to sleep with young Italian women, while dreaming about the Ancient Romans, if I remember an essay I read about him).

    For Goethe, this was rebellion to the strictness of body-denying religion (which, I need not write - originated in the Middle East).

    So it does not exactly match the qualities you attribute to US census based categorizations. Something which might be relevant to your theories, is the story of Faust. Although here the contrast of the soul and the material/physical success.

    Perhaps German Reader, if he is still writing, will explain the topic better.

    For Goethe, this was rebellion to the strictness of body-denying religion (which, I need not write – originated in the Middle East).

    Wrong. Body-denying spirituality originated in India not the Middle-East. Middle-Eastern religions are so attached to the body they imagine it will be resurrected after death in the afterlife and then live forever in that form in heaven or hell.

  132. @Daniel Chieh
    Its also overwhelmingly agricultural and is a case of self-selection in the population that chooses to move there, as the article you posted cut off a few things:

    1) Generally lower salaries

    2) Shared houses(often three generations)

    3) overwhelmingly lower female salaries(female salaries peak at 20s and decrease from that point on)

    It’s still a town, with jobs that don’t involve shoveling dung (Nagi is famous for its wagyu beef and boasts a small manufacturing center where 19 companies have factories) and not scary for normal city people wanting a quieter life to move to. Not ‘free hectare of empty land in the Far East’ which is the Russian program aimed at populating the countryside.

    https://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=1&nv=1&sl=ru&sp=nmt4&tl=en&u=https://www.newsvl.ru/vlad/2018/10/29/175003/

    It turned out that 85% of “hectarists” claimed the land, simply yielding to the herd instinct and advertising on TV. They simply have no plans, and most importantly, no money for the development of land. They do not want to pull an electric cable jointly or make a road. Even those who have money have either little experience in construction, or they have no idea what to do with 90 acres out of 100. Plans for the overwhelming majority of hectares do not go beyond the summer house in an ecologically clean place and vegetable garden. Most of the “latifundists” limited themselves to a single sightseeing tour to their hectare, with a statement of the fact that there is no end of work there. At this participation in the program for them ended.

  133. @AaronB
    You are right, and this is why I say the revolution will come from a splinter sect that breaks off from the elite. High caliber men bred to leadership and status.

    Unfortunately, its almost impossible to eradicate a servile state of mind and the mentality and bad habits of the socially inferior. Putting a clever brain in a lower class body does not a leader make.

    You see this with intelligent lower class men like Steve Sailer, Derbyshire, Karlin. They are smarter than the average for their class, but they have the mentality of serfs, and are instinctively servile to Jews and Asians.

    Occasionally, the lower classes produce a true leader with the right stuff, but Spartacus's are rare - and his band of lower class rabble ultimately couldn't remain disciplined and loyal. Another factor in why revolutions from the bottom don't succeed - the quality of the followers, even if the leadership is good.

    You see this with intelligent lower class men like Steve Sailer, Derbyshire, Karlin. They are smarter than the average for their class, but they have the mentality of serfs, and are instinctively servile to Jews and Asians.

    Any IQist who is not an Ashkenazi jew is suffering from an inferiority complex.

    It is strange that the loudest and proudest proponents of IQism/HBD are white nationalists, who rank not only below Ashkenazi jews but also below the more numerous East Asians.

    • Replies: @AaronB
    White HBDers come from the lowest social class. They cannot imagine comparing themselves to Jews or the elite Asians who come to America. As for the larger white elite, they are the same race, but equally out of reach.

    Most people aspire only to the class directly above them. Low class whites have always felt themselves to be in competition with blacks, especially in the South. That's why HBDers have such a preoccupation with putting blacks down, which seems so bizarre. Its personal. Its also traditional for them and part of their culture.

    Elite whites, by contrast, are either neutral or sympathetic to blacks, and take no pleasure in their misfortunes.
  134. @AaronB
    Not necessarily racial supremacy. That has implications of wanting to rule and conquer others and the refusal to see any value in other groups.

    Race is an abstract Enlightenment concept anyways. I am talking about something more earthy and concrete.

    Most groups with a distinct culture quietly view themselves as in some way, often indefinable, as the Earth's premier people. It sounds absurd to us, but even countries with zero tangible reasons to be proud secretly think this way.

    I would argue that some such belief may be essential to group mental health. It seems to function as a kind of robust first-line of psychological defense. The Japanese believe this, the Chinese willingly believe this, beck, the Thais think this about themselves. I've had Mexican friends who patiently explained to me the superior virtues of his countrymen, which no white man could fully comprehend. And the Jews, as we know, certainly believe this.

    Whites, alone, don't. Again, the WEIRD people.

    We need to stop framing this in terms of what the Germans did. We need to think in other terms.

    Most groups with a distinct culture quietly view themselves as in some way, often indefinable, as the Earth’s premier people.

    Whites, alone, don’t. Again, the WEIRD people.

    Because whites don’t have a group identity. They don’t have a racial or ethnic identity. White societies are just collections of individuals.

    White people scarcely even have family identities. Marriage is just a temporary sexual arrangement. Children are an obstacle to what really matters – individual enrichment.

    Individual white people usually see themselves as the smartest most virtuous people who ever walked the Earth. But they have no sense of belonging to anything outside themselves. Even their virtuousness is selfish – it’s done to gain status points which can be useful in a career.

    Is this genetic or cultural? I’m inclined to think it’s cultural. The collapse of Christianity (which was clearly a dying religion by the mid-18th century) and the rise of liberalism and capitalism (which were made possible by the collapse of Christianity) destroyed western society. All that was left was a mass of individuals.

    Nationalism was a failed 19th century attempt to create a sense of identity.

    • Replies: @AaronB
    I agree, its cultural.

    Its the imposition of a very specific way of thinking - abstract logic, generalizations, numbers - like a thin crust over everything in life.

    But just underneath this thin layer of artificial man made crust bubbles all the old biological vitality of the human being, all its natural health, and all its naturally designed systems for gaining knowledge about a complex world.

    That's why I feel this whole thing is so brittle - its collapse will be sudden, when that brittle crust can no longer hold back nature.

    This was a 500 year experiment that is winding down.
  135. @Daniel Chieh
    Its also overwhelmingly agricultural and is a case of self-selection in the population that chooses to move there, as the article you posted cut off a few things:

    1) Generally lower salaries

    2) Shared houses(often three generations)

    3) overwhelmingly lower female salaries(female salaries peak at 20s and decrease from that point on)

    Its also overwhelmingly agricultural

    Urbanisation may be the single biggest factor in demographic collapse.

    The irony is that it’s difficult to see how urbanisation can be reversed without an enormous decrease in population. To increase fertility rates we need to decrease the population!

    • Replies: @Toronto Russian
    "We"

    As commenter Talha usually writes - try convincing five of your family members, those who are naturally closest to you of all people, that a combination of Handmaid's Tale and Pol Pot Cambodia is a desirable demographic policy for your country. If they get on board, then you can safely say there is a "we".
    , @Daniel Chieh
    Well, given that urban areas are typically birthrate deserts, one could argue that they're doing a good job already. To a significant extent, I do feel that the problem is self-solving for better or worse if the high fertility rate of more traditional formulation, low urban birth rates and high suicide rates are considered.

    Insofar as neoliberalism is genuinely ugly, it also ultimately promotes a real despair in life even in its adherents and is necessarily more expensive on many levels and thus, self-abolishing. The key to undermining the system is to offer viable alterate systems, which is genuinely difficult but its a problem worth solving.
    , @notanon

    To increase fertility rates we need to decrease the population!
     
    yes - in the absence of immigration we wouldn't need to do anything - the population would fall until it reached a new equilibrium.
  136. @AaronB
    Agreed.

    What people don't perhaps realize is that high IQ races like Jews and Asians are far less intellectual than whites, and far more practical and earth-bound.

    This is somewhat known with regard to Asians, who are known for avoiding the theoretical and having a practical bent.

    But its also true of Jews. They may spin elaborate word theories, but it's usually for professional advancement. And Jewish culture proper is extremely earth-bound. The Talmud is often criticized for its concern with physical minutiae and the petty details of day to day life. It is not lofty spirituality. Although the discussion is framed in terms of its spiritual impact.

    Whites are the most purely intellectual of all the races, the most brainy, the race which developed this one organ at the expense of the rest of the body more than any other.

    Its also why whites developed the entire theoretical framework of the modern world and the world of technology and science, and have made most major contributions in all theoretical fields.

    But it is clearly something that comes at too steep a cost. And whites have to become stupider, more like the Jews and Asians, to become more intelligent.

    Whites are the most purely intellectual of all the races, the most brainy, the race which developed this one organ at the expense of the rest of the body more than any other.

    That is an absurd generalization. Whites are far more into (and far better at) athletics, sports, adventures, the outdoors and other physical activities, than Jews or Asians.

    Its also why whites developed the entire theoretical framework of the modern world and the world of technology and science, and have made most major contributions in all theoretical fields.

    You are exaggerating. There is no modern science and technology without algebra and the decimal numeral system. Neither of which arose in Europe.

    • Replies: @AaronB
    I am not talking about mere use of the mind. Traditional Jews did spend more time studying and whites devoted more time to sports and the like. You are right. I am talking about the place accorded to intellect in each culture.

    Jewish culture recognizes tradition and inherited biology as guides to life, and uses intellect to study these. It also accepts imperfect knowledge, and uses heuristics. It accepts the intellect cannot penetrate everything. It thinks concrete detail are as important as generalization. Concrete detail is observation without full understanding, while generalizing is an operation of abstract reason.

    So the intellect has an equivocal place in Jewish culture. It is valued and exercised more extensively than among whites, but it has a much lower place.

    (Elite culture) Whites were the only people who decided to use pure abstract reason as their guide in life - tradition, the accumulated wisdom of ages, was rejected, the instincts and impulses of the body, the inherited biological wisdom of our physical being, was rejected, and we were supposed to figure everything out using reason.

    Whites prefer the generalization to concrete detail, the intellectual conclusion rather than admitting he does not fully know why things are that way, but respecting their reality. So instead of Frenchmen, Chinese, and Germans, he sees only "men" - the general class. The concrete differences between them, which can be observed but not understood, he does not like to admit, because it is a failure of his intellect.

    He demands precision and does not like heuristics, because he is uncomfortable accepting there are things his intellect cannot penetrate. This perverse incentive creates distortions in science, and fake precision, as in the case of IQ, is preferred to potentially useful heuristics.

    So for whites the place of the intellect is supreme as in no other culture.
  137. @Dmitry
    I agree some of these ideologies and websites, operate as a sink for mentally ill and angry people.

    They are designed to attract the low quality and unpleasant people, and give them an excuse to express their hostility in a way that will discredit a particular set of views (unusually today on internet commentaries).

    If I was a conspiracy theorist, I would imagine they were deployed as a way to scare away normal people, from actually sensible policies, like anti-immigration or selective immigration.

    However, in reality, this conspiracy only exists in a very open way - for example, when the CNN and NYT promotes "Richard Spencer" as the "most important American nationalist", during the 2016 President's election, to try to lose some votes for Trump.


    They don’t want to face unpleasant realities, such as the fact that people in our society are too selfish to have children, too self-indulgent to make their marriages work
     
    Because your desire is "social conservatism." But a large proportion of people opposed to unfiltered third-world immigration to first or second world countries, do not necessarily care about "social conservatism".

    For example, all intelligent liberals, should oppose third-world immigration (or at least unfiltered such immigration) to their country, as the hyper-liberal policy of countries like Netherlands, requires a comparatively higher level of cultural and possibly human capital development, than a socially conservative policy.

    Because your desire is “social conservatism.” But a large proportion of people opposed to unfiltered third-world immigration to first or second world countries, do not necessarily care about “social conservatism”.

    That’s why they’re going to lose. Only a healthy society can save itself from that third-world immigration. A society obsessed with money, status and pleasure simply will not save itself.

    And a liberal society will never do anything to save itself from being overrun. It’s just not the way liberals or liberal societies operate. Liberalism is a religion. Expecting a liberal to oppose immigration is crazy. Some liberals will express concerns, some will worry that maybe immigration is going too fast, but at the end of the day liberals (which in the Anglosphere includes all mainstream conservatives) will still support mass immigration. They can’t do anything else.

    The idea that moderate or “intelligent” liberals can be potential allies is the purest fantasy.

    Social conservatism isn’t a personal preference. It’s essential to the survival of society.

    • Replies: @Dmitry

    A society obsessed with money, status and pleasure simply will not save itself.

     

    Argument for social conservativism are not bad, and to me there are signs in favour and against it.

    It will all be tested in real life. If it is beneficial or some kind of panacea, then socially conservative people and societies will succeed, and the socially liberal ones will fail.

    However, both socially liberal and conservative traits are within most populations, and the most successful examples of social conservative occur when religious groups filter themselves into their own group within the same society.

    This happens in America - for example with Utah - under conditions of political liberalism. Mormons of Utah are one of the "showcase" samples of success of the socially conservative lifestyle, and it is not a result of being a "money denying" nationality.

    Strong people like Mormons, can survive well even dysfunctional countries like Mexico. So if you are confident about the benefits of social conservatism, then the effect kinds of this social conservatism will survive well in every environment.

    Mormons in Mexico have created an America-style standard of life.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PKxW2MXTocQ


    And a liberal society will never do anything to save itself from being overrun. It’s just not the way liberals or liberal societies operate.
     
    You might underestimate a robustness of social liberals.

    Last year I was in vacation in Israel. I walked in the evening from Arab area in Southern part of Tel Aviv, to the secular area in the North of that city. (To go from where I stay in Bat Yam to Tel Aviv, you can walk through the worse parts of Yafo).

    For me, this walk is interesting, because you begin in a very Arab area, where the atmosphere begins completely conservative, with only men sitting outside smoking. Then by end of the walk, you are in one of the most liberal and hipster areas of the Middle East, with disco music in the street.

    I prefer the atmosphere of the latter area, and have an intuitive sense it was stronger than the former area (although there is perhaps also a feeling the liberal oasis there is fragile).

    -

    People are stubborn, and this is equally the people who prefer social liberalism will not abandom it.

    In the Dolphinarium beach in Tel Aviv, where the two populations can share the same beach. Neither side is going to change their life-style when confronted with another.

    https://i.imgur.com/xj0RM0K.jpg

    https://i.imgur.com/BS0BdvA.jpg


    Expecting a liberal to oppose immigration is crazy. Some liberals will express concerns, some will worry that maybe immigration is going too fast, but at the end of the day liberals (which in the Anglosphere includes all mainstream conservatives) will still support mass immigration. They can’t do anything else.
     
    It depends what kind of liberals. What about Pim Fortuyn in Netherlands?

    For example, German Reader, who writes here, seems to be liberal in the social sense, and he hates immigration to Germany because he does not want to be flooded with the backwards Middle Eastern people.

    A lot of the problem of third-world immigration to these countries, is that both the immigration and liberalism are collateral effect of a common cause - which is their higher level of economic development.

    A large part of these people who support the politics in Finland, discussed above will be socially liberal.

  138. @Bliss

    Whites are the most purely intellectual of all the races, the most brainy, the race which developed this one organ at the expense of the rest of the body more than any other.
     
    That is an absurd generalization. Whites are far more into (and far better at) athletics, sports, adventures, the outdoors and other physical activities, than Jews or Asians.

    Its also why whites developed the entire theoretical framework of the modern world and the world of technology and science, and have made most major contributions in all theoretical fields.
     
    You are exaggerating. There is no modern science and technology without algebra and the decimal numeral system. Neither of which arose in Europe.

    I am not talking about mere use of the mind. Traditional Jews did spend more time studying and whites devoted more time to sports and the like. You are right. I am talking about the place accorded to intellect in each culture.

    Jewish culture recognizes tradition and inherited biology as guides to life, and uses intellect to study these. It also accepts imperfect knowledge, and uses heuristics. It accepts the intellect cannot penetrate everything. It thinks concrete detail are as important as generalization. Concrete detail is observation without full understanding, while generalizing is an operation of abstract reason.

    So the intellect has an equivocal place in Jewish culture. It is valued and exercised more extensively than among whites, but it has a much lower place.

    (Elite culture) Whites were the only people who decided to use pure abstract reason as their guide in life – tradition, the accumulated wisdom of ages, was rejected, the instincts and impulses of the body, the inherited biological wisdom of our physical being, was rejected, and we were supposed to figure everything out using reason.

    Whites prefer the generalization to concrete detail, the intellectual conclusion rather than admitting he does not fully know why things are that way, but respecting their reality. So instead of Frenchmen, Chinese, and Germans, he sees only “men” – the general class. The concrete differences between them, which can be observed but not understood, he does not like to admit, because it is a failure of his intellect.

    He demands precision and does not like heuristics, because he is uncomfortable accepting there are things his intellect cannot penetrate. This perverse incentive creates distortions in science, and fake precision, as in the case of IQ, is preferred to potentially useful heuristics.

    So for whites the place of the intellect is supreme as in no other culture.

  139. @Bliss

    You see this with intelligent lower class men like Steve Sailer, Derbyshire, Karlin. They are smarter than the average for their class, but they have the mentality of serfs, and are instinctively servile to Jews and Asians.
     
    Any IQist who is not an Ashkenazi jew is suffering from an inferiority complex.

    It is strange that the loudest and proudest proponents of IQism/HBD are white nationalists, who rank not only below Ashkenazi jews but also below the more numerous East Asians.

    White HBDers come from the lowest social class. They cannot imagine comparing themselves to Jews or the elite Asians who come to America. As for the larger white elite, they are the same race, but equally out of reach.

    Most people aspire only to the class directly above them. Low class whites have always felt themselves to be in competition with blacks, especially in the South. That’s why HBDers have such a preoccupation with putting blacks down, which seems so bizarre. Its personal. Its also traditional for them and part of their culture.

    Elite whites, by contrast, are either neutral or sympathetic to blacks, and take no pleasure in their misfortunes.

  140. @dfordoom

    Inspirational nationalism is what will have a chance to replace inspirational globalism.
     
    Yep. Globalism, like earlier inspirational ideologies such as communism, offers people something worth struggling for. Maybe even worth dying for.

    Is anyone going to be willing to die for HBD?

    Is anyone going to be willing to die for HBD?

    No. Just like no one is going to be willing to die for quantum mechanics or astronomy. That’s a strong argument that, should the media demand that they do it, anti-immigration parties should be running on a geocentric worldview platform.

    HBD is both intellectual and non-inspirational.

    Same thing as quantum physics and astronomy. A very strong argument in favor of accepting the geocentric worldview, should the media declare that modern astronomy was literally Nazi.

    Look, HBD is not an ideology or a political platform or anything like that. It’s just part of reality, a scientific truth currently suppressed by our enemies. Is there a single reason to follow the taboos of our enemies, when it clearly leads to no extra political support?

    • Replies: @Toronto Russian

    Look, HBD is not an ideology or a political platform or anything like that. It’s just part of reality, a scientific truth currently suppressed by our enemies.
     
    LOL

    http://www.unz.com/comments/all/?commenterfilter=South+Asian+Dude

    A Nepali looks at the data behind 'World IQ map' that gave his country a Down's Syndrome level IQ score and finds the data is junk. The guy has just 8 comments and all are on this topic. How do you know people from other 'difficult' countries are accurately tested and average scores aren't distorted like that? This is worth quoting:

    I just downloaded the Becker IQ data. All of Nepal’s studies are based on rural areas. Are you fucking kidding me? I count 9 rows, all rural. One of the columns “Samp Comp” says “Vitamin A deficiency”. By contrast, just underneath is the Netherlands. Not even one row says “rural”. It is either national or urban. So the data set is a bunch of horse manure.
    I am looking at India as well, where I see mostly urban and national, and also a couple of rural. The rural IQ in Calcutta (IND2222 and IND7913) is calculated to be 58. Now, Pakistan is all urban and national. One row has IQ calculated at 109, but for some reason ,has that been omitted? The Indian rural IQ scores are based on some sort of epilepsy study.
     

    Based on the data provided:
    1: Nepal 9
    2: Gambia, The 6
    3: Indonesia 6
    4: Kenya 6
    5: India 5

    The second column is the total number of data from rural areas. Nepal tops the list. You can also see that India is there as well. I am sorry to say, but you simply cannot compare rural to urban areas. This is true especially for Nepal, where a lot of these rural areas are super remote and poverty starved.
     
    , @dfordoom

    Look, HBD is not an ideology or a political platform or anything like that. It’s just part of reality, a scientific truth currently suppressed by our enemies.
     
    But the problem is that HBD is an ideology. Most "science" today is more ideology than science (climate science for instance is pure ideology).

    Science is political. I think that's a bad thing, but the reality is that science has been thoroughly and hopelessly politicised since WW2.

    Can you honestly and sincerely say that supporters of HBD do not have a political agenda?
  141. @dfordoom

    Every single High-IQ nation is not reproducing at replacement level rates. Why then do these HBDers not ask the question of whether High-IQ is good thing or not? Or rather, if the comforts and luxuries of the modern world are actually destructive?
     
    HBDers are like junkies. They don't want to stop taking the drugs that are killing them. The drugs that are killing them are feminism, sexual degeneracy, hedonism, consumerism, technology worship, trash culture, atheism, capitalism. They think they can keep all those things and still have a civilisation.

    They can see society going down the toilet but they refuse to accept that this is happening because their society has become decadent and worthless. So they look for scapegoats. It's the Jews! It's the darkies! It's the Muslims! It's those awful low-IQ people!

    They don't want to face unpleasant realities, such as the fact that people in our society are too selfish to have children, too self-indulgent to make their marriages work, too greedy to do anything to save their own societies. The fault lies within us.

    HBDers are like junkies. They don’t want to stop taking the drugs that are killing them. The drugs that are killing them are feminism, sexual degeneracy, hedonism, consumerism, technology worship, trash culture, atheism, capitalism. They think they can keep all those things and still have a civilisation.

    Actually, HBD has very little to say about some of those things, like capitalism or atheism. Again, it’s just a part of the description of reality, a field of scientific study currently suppressed. So why would it have anything to say about the existence of God? It’s certainly compatible with both belief in God and religion and the lack of it.

    But, obviously, it makes feminism, transgenderism, most of LGBT ideology, blank slatism, and a number of similar beliefs untenable. (Remember that it’s about biological differences between groups of humans: that includes men and women.) I don’t think there is a single feminist HBD proponent. Even among gay-friendly HBD proponents (like white nationalist fruitcake Greg Johnson) support for gay marriage seems to be very low.

    Anyway, you seem to think that HBD should be a stand-alone ideology of everything, a political platform, and presumably a floor wax, too. It’s not that, was never that, and cannot be that. Why don’t you demand the same thing of nuclear physics? Why don’t you criticize it for its lack of inspiration? Because the media and our enemies didn’t label it literally Nazi?

    • Replies: @anonymous

    Actually, HBD has very little to say about some of those things, like capitalism or atheism. Again, it’s just a part of the description of reality, a field of scientific study currently suppressed. So why would it have anything to say about the existence of God? It’s certainly compatible with both belief in God and religion and the lack of it.

    But, obviously, it makes feminism, transgenderism, most of LGBT ideology, blank slatism, and a number of similar beliefs untenable.
     
    And HBDIQ makes nationalism untenable in the same way. Why should high IQ chosen people feel any "solidarity" with low IQ moron masses just because they belong to the same "nation"?

    Face it, HBDIQ ideology is self defeating in principle. The high IQ elite already believes in their superiority over (white) moron masses.

    https://twitter.com/the_moviebob/status/1116181820935217152


    Their only differences with HBDIQ dogma are that they attribute their high IQ and success to their hard work, not to genes, and the failure of the non white moron masses is due to their oppression by white racists. The failure of white moron masses is due to their laziness and immorality and is well deserved.

    Now, let assume that HBDIQ evangelists succeed and persuade the high IQ elite that the non white morons are as hopeless and worthless as the white morons, and they, the high IQ elite, were born to be master race. What will happen?
  142. @Beckow

    ...Germanic hold in education and business lasted only as long as the last pre-revolutionary elites were alive. Finns had taken over everything except old wealth families by 1950s.
     
    It is interesting that what many outsiders (like me) see as past Swedish elite in Finland, had a much more varied background. I knew about the Mannerheim family, but I though that in general the business and other elites were Swedish in origin. Was the language in higher education until 1900 (or 1950's) German or Swedish?

    When Sweden was riding hight, e.g. the 30-year war, or the invasion of the east and the Poltava battle in early 18.th century, a lot of their foot soldiers were Finnish, I am assuming they were conscripted peasants.

    I heard about the Nokia 'Swedish' roots from a Finnish Swede, so maybe there is the usual self-referential exaggeration.

    Nokia was founded in the 19th century and at that time it was owned by a bunch of Swedes and Germans and foreign investors. It is a very old company that used to produce everything from rubber boots to TVs but once their cell phone business shot up they separated all the old parts so effectively the 19th century Nokia is in separate companies now (still making rubber boots).

    The language of higher education in the 19th century was still theoretically Latin but in practice they used a lot of Swedish or German. Finnish was banned until Alexander II ‘s personal orders but not a lot of Finnish was used until the 20th century when aristocratic privilege stopped being the main way of getting in and Finns started coming.

    If you want to study something like science or engineering, Swedish and Finnish are too small and you have to learn a bigger language. In practice that used to mean German and the teachers would just tell you to read some of the big works on the subject which were all in German even if the language of the lectures was Latin (or Swedish or even Finnish). German is very easy for Swedes to pick up and not easy for Finns. Today of course if you sign up for a university course in Finnish or Swedish they’ll usually just tell you to read a bunch of books in English.

    The military was actually one place where Finns could have careers and some aristocratic families have part Finnish roots because of Finns who were promoted due to military success, though they always quickly intermarried and Germanized. Of course it was still hard since the language was either Swedish or German. One unusual thing about Finland as a colony was that the landowners largely remained ethnic Finns and landowners were granted tax privileges if they could equip a cavalryman etc so they functioned as a sort of a pseudo-knight class in those wars.

    Finnish landowners were basically a puppet elite class that made rebellion hard because local Finnish elites would be loyal to the King (or later Tsar) rather than any Finnish national ambition.

    • Replies: @Beckow

    ...landowners largely remained ethnic Finns and landowners were granted tax privileges if they could equip a cavalryman etc so they functioned as a sort of a pseudo-knight class in those wars.
     
    Thanks. Pseudo-knights is a great name for the metropolitan comprador elites that have been destroying Europe. They like to 'equip' others, but never fight themselves. Their bosses don't accept them as noble, yet find their yearnings for status and perks useful.

    Nokia making rubber boots is fascinating, Finland is marshy. I am just letting you know that Swedes (after a few drinks) like to off-handedly claim Nokia as theirs. Our main 19th century conglomerate - Skoda, very Czech, almost too much so - started with bakery equipment and similar small engineering stuff. Skoda eventually made it big in the arms industry, WWI was very good. Another local success story, Bata shoes, started by selling boots to the Habsburg army. Wars are good for business, maybe we should have one, all those under-employed aspirational pseudo-knights hanging around big cities could get busy...
  143. @reiner Tor

    Is anyone going to be willing to die for HBD?
     
    No. Just like no one is going to be willing to die for quantum mechanics or astronomy. That’s a strong argument that, should the media demand that they do it, anti-immigration parties should be running on a geocentric worldview platform.

    HBD is both intellectual and non-inspirational.
     
    Same thing as quantum physics and astronomy. A very strong argument in favor of accepting the geocentric worldview, should the media declare that modern astronomy was literally Nazi.

    Look, HBD is not an ideology or a political platform or anything like that. It’s just part of reality, a scientific truth currently suppressed by our enemies. Is there a single reason to follow the taboos of our enemies, when it clearly leads to no extra political support?

    Look, HBD is not an ideology or a political platform or anything like that. It’s just part of reality, a scientific truth currently suppressed by our enemies.

    LOL

    http://www.unz.com/comments/all/?commenterfilter=South+Asian+Dude

    A Nepali looks at the data behind ‘World IQ map’ that gave his country a Down’s Syndrome level IQ score and finds the data is junk. The guy has just 8 comments and all are on this topic. How do you know people from other ‘difficult’ countries are accurately tested and average scores aren’t distorted like that? This is worth quoting:

    I just downloaded the Becker IQ data. All of Nepal’s studies are based on rural areas. Are you fucking kidding me? I count 9 rows, all rural. One of the columns “Samp Comp” says “Vitamin A deficiency”. By contrast, just underneath is the Netherlands. Not even one row says “rural”. It is either national or urban. So the data set is a bunch of horse manure.
    I am looking at India as well, where I see mostly urban and national, and also a couple of rural. The rural IQ in Calcutta (IND2222 and IND7913) is calculated to be 58. Now, Pakistan is all urban and national. One row has IQ calculated at 109, but for some reason ,has that been omitted? The Indian rural IQ scores are based on some sort of epilepsy study.

    Based on the data provided:
    1: Nepal 9
    2: Gambia, The 6
    3: Indonesia 6
    4: Kenya 6
    5: India 5

    The second column is the total number of data from rural areas. Nepal tops the list. You can also see that India is there as well. I am sorry to say, but you simply cannot compare rural to urban areas. This is true especially for Nepal, where a lot of these rural areas are super remote and poverty starved.

    • Replies: @AP

    I just downloaded the Becker IQ data. All of Nepal’s studies are based on rural areas. Are you fucking kidding me? I count 9 rows, all rural. One of the columns “Samp Comp” says “Vitamin A deficiency”.
     
    Hilarious. Idea of average national IQs is not garbage but guessing national average IQs based on numbers from this study clearly is.
  144. anonymous[350] • Disclaimer says:
    @reiner Tor

    HBDers are like junkies. They don’t want to stop taking the drugs that are killing them. The drugs that are killing them are feminism, sexual degeneracy, hedonism, consumerism, technology worship, trash culture, atheism, capitalism. They think they can keep all those things and still have a civilisation.
     
    Actually, HBD has very little to say about some of those things, like capitalism or atheism. Again, it’s just a part of the description of reality, a field of scientific study currently suppressed. So why would it have anything to say about the existence of God? It’s certainly compatible with both belief in God and religion and the lack of it.

    But, obviously, it makes feminism, transgenderism, most of LGBT ideology, blank slatism, and a number of similar beliefs untenable. (Remember that it’s about biological differences between groups of humans: that includes men and women.) I don’t think there is a single feminist HBD proponent. Even among gay-friendly HBD proponents (like white nationalist fruitcake Greg Johnson) support for gay marriage seems to be very low.

    Anyway, you seem to think that HBD should be a stand-alone ideology of everything, a political platform, and presumably a floor wax, too. It’s not that, was never that, and cannot be that. Why don’t you demand the same thing of nuclear physics? Why don’t you criticize it for its lack of inspiration? Because the media and our enemies didn’t label it literally Nazi?

    Actually, HBD has very little to say about some of those things, like capitalism or atheism. Again, it’s just a part of the description of reality, a field of scientific study currently suppressed. So why would it have anything to say about the existence of God? It’s certainly compatible with both belief in God and religion and the lack of it.

    But, obviously, it makes feminism, transgenderism, most of LGBT ideology, blank slatism, and a number of similar beliefs untenable.

    And HBDIQ makes nationalism untenable in the same way. Why should high IQ chosen people feel any “solidarity” with low IQ moron masses just because they belong to the same “nation”?

    Face it, HBDIQ ideology is self defeating in principle. The high IQ elite already believes in their superiority over (white) moron masses.

    Their only differences with HBDIQ dogma are that they attribute their high IQ and success to their hard work, not to genes, and the failure of the non white moron masses is due to their oppression by white racists. The failure of white moron masses is due to their laziness and immorality and is well deserved.

    Now, let assume that HBDIQ evangelists succeed and persuade the high IQ elite that the non white morons are as hopeless and worthless as the white morons, and they, the high IQ elite, were born to be master race. What will happen?

    • Replies: @EastKekistani
    HBD nationalism leads to Singapores, not ethnostates. I think most places on this planet should belong to ethnostates. Singapores should obviously exist in certain places but they aren't for most people.
    , @Jaakko Raipala

    And HBDIQ makes nationalism untenable in the same way. Why should high IQ chosen people feel any “solidarity” with low IQ moron masses just because they belong to the same “nation”?
     
    Reversal towards the mean guarantees that their children are likely to be much closer to each other and further descendants even more so. The smart guy's children will regress towards the ethnic group average while the dumb guy's children will also regress towards the ethnic group average. They may not personally have common interests but their descendants are likely to have so it makes sense for HBD aware elites to invest in an ideology like nationalism or religion that attempts to bond the interests of following generations with the current one.

    Face it, HBDIQ ideology is self defeating in principle. The high IQ elite already believes in their superiority over (white) moron masses.
     
    When they're not HBD aware they imagine that their superiority is due to their hard work, education and so on and they'll continue to promote futile policies to promote these things to the lower IQ who cannot benefit from them and ignore policies that would actually be optimal for the less biologically fortunate.
    , @dfordoom

    Face it, HBDIQ ideology is self defeating in principle. The high IQ elite already believes in their superiority over (white) moron masses.
     
    Yes. The HBD/IQ ideology does appear to be something that will encourage globalism, since as you say globalism is based on the idea that elites should rule over the inferior masses.

    HBD/IQ ideology also makes the very idea of democracy untenable. Now personally I have no great love for democracy but I'm not sure that most HBDers have accepted that a logical consequence of their belief in HBD and IQ must be a rejection of democracy. If you accept HBD then the ideal world will be Huxley's Brave New World. A world divided rigidly into castes.

    But HBDers are not interested in the many actual consequences of their own belief system - they just want a "scientific" justification for their desire to rid their nations of what they see as inferior races.

    The problem is that if you actually want to stop immigration and halt the insane drive towards ever-increasing diversity then espousing HBD is probably the strategy least likely to succeed.
  145. @dfordoom

    Its also overwhelmingly agricultural
     
    Urbanisation may be the single biggest factor in demographic collapse.

    The irony is that it's difficult to see how urbanisation can be reversed without an enormous decrease in population. To increase fertility rates we need to decrease the population!

    “We”

    As commenter Talha usually writes – try convincing five of your family members, those who are naturally closest to you of all people, that a combination of Handmaid’s Tale and Pol Pot Cambodia is a desirable demographic policy for your country. If they get on board, then you can safely say there is a “we”.

  146. @Dmitry
    Contrast between body and spirit was a theme for Goethe. However, Goethe connects sensuous side of life to Greece and Italy. (And he was going to voyage in Rome, to sleep with young Italian women, while dreaming about the Ancient Romans, if I remember an essay I read about him).

    For Goethe, this was rebellion to the strictness of body-denying religion (which, I need not write - originated in the Middle East).

    So it does not exactly match the qualities you attribute to US census based categorizations. Something which might be relevant to your theories, is the story of Faust. Although here the contrast of the soul and the material/physical success.

    Perhaps German Reader, if he is still writing, will explain the topic better.

    Yes, Goethe is indeed a key figure in diagnosing the growing problem with European culture. He wrote an entire book on his travels to Italy, which I read when I was much younger.

    Around this time, certain distinctive attitudes came into being that are still with is today. Northern Europeans began looking to the global South for relief from the growing abstraction of the North. This was later extended to the Near East, and beyond. Goethe also received inspiration from Persian Muslim culture, and wrote s book of poems about this, which celebrates a more sensuous and body centered form of life.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    Not "global South", but Italy and Greece - i.e. the centre of European civilization, prior to its importation of body-denying religion of the Levant.

    And Goethe's view was more an extension of the Renaissance and the process which had earlier occurred inside Italy in men like Machiavelli.

  147. @dfordoom

    Most groups with a distinct culture quietly view themselves as in some way, often indefinable, as the Earth’s premier people.

     


    Whites, alone, don’t. Again, the WEIRD people.
     
    Because whites don't have a group identity. They don't have a racial or ethnic identity. White societies are just collections of individuals.

    White people scarcely even have family identities. Marriage is just a temporary sexual arrangement. Children are an obstacle to what really matters - individual enrichment.

    Individual white people usually see themselves as the smartest most virtuous people who ever walked the Earth. But they have no sense of belonging to anything outside themselves. Even their virtuousness is selfish - it's done to gain status points which can be useful in a career.

    Is this genetic or cultural? I'm inclined to think it's cultural. The collapse of Christianity (which was clearly a dying religion by the mid-18th century) and the rise of liberalism and capitalism (which were made possible by the collapse of Christianity) destroyed western society. All that was left was a mass of individuals.

    Nationalism was a failed 19th century attempt to create a sense of identity.

    I agree, its cultural.

    Its the imposition of a very specific way of thinking – abstract logic, generalizations, numbers – like a thin crust over everything in life.

    But just underneath this thin layer of artificial man made crust bubbles all the old biological vitality of the human being, all its natural health, and all its naturally designed systems for gaining knowledge about a complex world.

    That’s why I feel this whole thing is so brittle – its collapse will be sudden, when that brittle crust can no longer hold back nature.

    This was a 500 year experiment that is winding down.

  148. @anonymous

    Actually, HBD has very little to say about some of those things, like capitalism or atheism. Again, it’s just a part of the description of reality, a field of scientific study currently suppressed. So why would it have anything to say about the existence of God? It’s certainly compatible with both belief in God and religion and the lack of it.

    But, obviously, it makes feminism, transgenderism, most of LGBT ideology, blank slatism, and a number of similar beliefs untenable.
     
    And HBDIQ makes nationalism untenable in the same way. Why should high IQ chosen people feel any "solidarity" with low IQ moron masses just because they belong to the same "nation"?

    Face it, HBDIQ ideology is self defeating in principle. The high IQ elite already believes in their superiority over (white) moron masses.

    https://twitter.com/the_moviebob/status/1116181820935217152


    Their only differences with HBDIQ dogma are that they attribute their high IQ and success to their hard work, not to genes, and the failure of the non white moron masses is due to their oppression by white racists. The failure of white moron masses is due to their laziness and immorality and is well deserved.

    Now, let assume that HBDIQ evangelists succeed and persuade the high IQ elite that the non white morons are as hopeless and worthless as the white morons, and they, the high IQ elite, were born to be master race. What will happen?

    HBD nationalism leads to Singapores, not ethnostates. I think most places on this planet should belong to ethnostates. Singapores should obviously exist in certain places but they aren’t for most people.

  149. Think of HBD like an immune system. The body recognizes self and not-self. There are many intricate layers to it, but, no doubt, it is not inspiring to the average person. A human has it – a cow has it – even a chicken has it. Some people may not like certain aspects of it, like fever, allergies, or organ rejection – but try to live without it, and see how long you live for.

    How can you possibly get by without it? Maybe, if your homogeneous ethnic group was transplanted to a suitable planet 40 light years away. Maybe, you can even get by without it on Mars. But what can you possibly substitute for it, here on Earth?

  150. AP says:
    @Toronto Russian

    Look, HBD is not an ideology or a political platform or anything like that. It’s just part of reality, a scientific truth currently suppressed by our enemies.
     
    LOL

    http://www.unz.com/comments/all/?commenterfilter=South+Asian+Dude

    A Nepali looks at the data behind 'World IQ map' that gave his country a Down's Syndrome level IQ score and finds the data is junk. The guy has just 8 comments and all are on this topic. How do you know people from other 'difficult' countries are accurately tested and average scores aren't distorted like that? This is worth quoting:

    I just downloaded the Becker IQ data. All of Nepal’s studies are based on rural areas. Are you fucking kidding me? I count 9 rows, all rural. One of the columns “Samp Comp” says “Vitamin A deficiency”. By contrast, just underneath is the Netherlands. Not even one row says “rural”. It is either national or urban. So the data set is a bunch of horse manure.
    I am looking at India as well, where I see mostly urban and national, and also a couple of rural. The rural IQ in Calcutta (IND2222 and IND7913) is calculated to be 58. Now, Pakistan is all urban and national. One row has IQ calculated at 109, but for some reason ,has that been omitted? The Indian rural IQ scores are based on some sort of epilepsy study.
     

    Based on the data provided:
    1: Nepal 9
    2: Gambia, The 6
    3: Indonesia 6
    4: Kenya 6
    5: India 5

    The second column is the total number of data from rural areas. Nepal tops the list. You can also see that India is there as well. I am sorry to say, but you simply cannot compare rural to urban areas. This is true especially for Nepal, where a lot of these rural areas are super remote and poverty starved.
     

    I just downloaded the Becker IQ data. All of Nepal’s studies are based on rural areas. Are you fucking kidding me? I count 9 rows, all rural. One of the columns “Samp Comp” says “Vitamin A deficiency”.

    Hilarious. Idea of average national IQs is not garbage but guessing national average IQs based on numbers from this study clearly is.

    • Replies: @songbird
    I think the guy should be cut a little slack.

    Finding out the national IQ of every country in the word is probably beyond the means of an independent researcher. What he can do is create a open database to be scrutinized and amended, until it is the best possible paper estimate of every country.

    As we have seen with Lynn (who I believe had less openness) , this process tends to create regional outliers - probably a filter like genetic distance should be used to disregard some of these outliers, and they should be thought of as probably being more like their neighbors.

    Eventually, there will be better tests and better databases, but everything requires a starting point.
  151. @anonymous

    Actually, HBD has very little to say about some of those things, like capitalism or atheism. Again, it’s just a part of the description of reality, a field of scientific study currently suppressed. So why would it have anything to say about the existence of God? It’s certainly compatible with both belief in God and religion and the lack of it.

    But, obviously, it makes feminism, transgenderism, most of LGBT ideology, blank slatism, and a number of similar beliefs untenable.
     
    And HBDIQ makes nationalism untenable in the same way. Why should high IQ chosen people feel any "solidarity" with low IQ moron masses just because they belong to the same "nation"?

    Face it, HBDIQ ideology is self defeating in principle. The high IQ elite already believes in their superiority over (white) moron masses.

    https://twitter.com/the_moviebob/status/1116181820935217152


    Their only differences with HBDIQ dogma are that they attribute their high IQ and success to their hard work, not to genes, and the failure of the non white moron masses is due to their oppression by white racists. The failure of white moron masses is due to their laziness and immorality and is well deserved.

    Now, let assume that HBDIQ evangelists succeed and persuade the high IQ elite that the non white morons are as hopeless and worthless as the white morons, and they, the high IQ elite, were born to be master race. What will happen?

    And HBDIQ makes nationalism untenable in the same way. Why should high IQ chosen people feel any “solidarity” with low IQ moron masses just because they belong to the same “nation”?

    Reversal towards the mean guarantees that their children are likely to be much closer to each other and further descendants even more so. The smart guy’s children will regress towards the ethnic group average while the dumb guy’s children will also regress towards the ethnic group average. They may not personally have common interests but their descendants are likely to have so it makes sense for HBD aware elites to invest in an ideology like nationalism or religion that attempts to bond the interests of following generations with the current one.

    Face it, HBDIQ ideology is self defeating in principle. The high IQ elite already believes in their superiority over (white) moron masses.

    When they’re not HBD aware they imagine that their superiority is due to their hard work, education and so on and they’ll continue to promote futile policies to promote these things to the lower IQ who cannot benefit from them and ignore policies that would actually be optimal for the less biologically fortunate.

    • Agree: reiner Tor
    • Replies: @AaronB
    Regression towards the mean is one of the more misleading concepts in HBD. Every "race" is composed of subgroups with higher and lower means.

    Episcopalians, for instance, have a mean IQ of 109, as high as Jews. So their children will be regressing towards that mean, not the "racial" mean of 100.

    Now lets take an Episcopalian family with an average IQ of 130. One child has an IQ of 150. His children will be regressing towards the family mean of 130, not the Episcopalian mean of 109.

    Regression towards the mean is based on the idea that an individual who is significantly above his group average is benefiting from lucky random genetic mutations that will not be passed on to his children, and it all hinges on what his "group" is.

    Family's where both parents are PHDs and doctors are not notable for producing children that are significantly less able than them. Talent runs in families for a few generations at least, although families decay as well.

    IQ always prefers the most general level of analysis, and avoids the more specific and detailed one, thus producing extremely misleading pictures.


    When they’re not HBD aware they imagine that their superiority is due to their hard work, education and so on and they’ll continue to promote futile policies to promote these things to the lower IQ who cannot benefit from them and ignore policies that would actually be optimal for the less biologically fortunate.
     
    But hard work does play a tremendous role in achievement, and every high achieving person is well aware of it. Promoting hard work, discipline, and the like is extremely beneficial for all sectors of society. Like they do in Japan.

    Focusing exclusively or primarily on genes is demotivating and leads to general underperformance. In general, many people are not aware of what they are capable of until they make a very serious and determined effort, and nearly everyone surprised themselves when properly motivated.

    But you are correct that there exist genetic limitations both between groups and individuals, and this needs to be discussed and accepted as well. Egalitarianism is not tenable and plainly contradicts reality.

    Which is why we need to avoid futile "one sided" positions like either HBD or Blank Slatism. Neither can stand alone

    HBD now is a reaction to Blank Slatism, which itself was a reaction to previous versions of HBD.

    Can we maybe move forward as a culture and create an intelligent synthesis of two extremes that are untenable on their own?

    No one here at least, is trying to replace HBD with Blank Slatism, but create a more intelligent HBD that is less "general" and more consistent with actual reality. Right now it's a grotesque travesty.

  152. @AP

    I just downloaded the Becker IQ data. All of Nepal’s studies are based on rural areas. Are you fucking kidding me? I count 9 rows, all rural. One of the columns “Samp Comp” says “Vitamin A deficiency”.
     
    Hilarious. Idea of average national IQs is not garbage but guessing national average IQs based on numbers from this study clearly is.

    I think the guy should be cut a little slack.

    Finding out the national IQ of every country in the word is probably beyond the means of an independent researcher. What he can do is create a open database to be scrutinized and amended, until it is the best possible paper estimate of every country.

    As we have seen with Lynn (who I believe had less openness) , this process tends to create regional outliers – probably a filter like genetic distance should be used to disregard some of these outliers, and they should be thought of as probably being more like their neighbors.

    Eventually, there will be better tests and better databases, but everything requires a starting point.

    • Agree: reiner Tor
    • Replies: @AP
    I agree. The problem is when something is summarized as "a national IQ" when it is instead merely IQ data from whatever research papers in that country. If some country "X" had only one study that involved IQ, and it was about chronic alcoholics, or kids who had lead poisoning, this would go up as the estimated national IQ on the chart. Apparently Nepal's estimate was based on some studies of rural areas with malnutrition which is about as silly as the hypotheticals I gave.

    A nationwide standardized test that is correlated to IQ, like PISA, probably provides a better, though still imperfect, estimate than does a collection of various studies that happened to have been conducted in the country.
  153. @Jaakko Raipala

    And HBDIQ makes nationalism untenable in the same way. Why should high IQ chosen people feel any “solidarity” with low IQ moron masses just because they belong to the same “nation”?
     
    Reversal towards the mean guarantees that their children are likely to be much closer to each other and further descendants even more so. The smart guy's children will regress towards the ethnic group average while the dumb guy's children will also regress towards the ethnic group average. They may not personally have common interests but their descendants are likely to have so it makes sense for HBD aware elites to invest in an ideology like nationalism or religion that attempts to bond the interests of following generations with the current one.

    Face it, HBDIQ ideology is self defeating in principle. The high IQ elite already believes in their superiority over (white) moron masses.
     
    When they're not HBD aware they imagine that their superiority is due to their hard work, education and so on and they'll continue to promote futile policies to promote these things to the lower IQ who cannot benefit from them and ignore policies that would actually be optimal for the less biologically fortunate.

    Regression towards the mean is one of the more misleading concepts in HBD. Every “race” is composed of subgroups with higher and lower means.

    Episcopalians, for instance, have a mean IQ of 109, as high as Jews. So their children will be regressing towards that mean, not the “racial” mean of 100.

    Now lets take an Episcopalian family with an average IQ of 130. One child has an IQ of 150. His children will be regressing towards the family mean of 130, not the Episcopalian mean of 109.

    Regression towards the mean is based on the idea that an individual who is significantly above his group average is benefiting from lucky random genetic mutations that will not be passed on to his children, and it all hinges on what his “group” is.

    Family’s where both parents are PHDs and doctors are not notable for producing children that are significantly less able than them. Talent runs in families for a few generations at least, although families decay as well.

    IQ always prefers the most general level of analysis, and avoids the more specific and detailed one, thus producing extremely misleading pictures.

    When they’re not HBD aware they imagine that their superiority is due to their hard work, education and so on and they’ll continue to promote futile policies to promote these things to the lower IQ who cannot benefit from them and ignore policies that would actually be optimal for the less biologically fortunate.

    But hard work does play a tremendous role in achievement, and every high achieving person is well aware of it. Promoting hard work, discipline, and the like is extremely beneficial for all sectors of society. Like they do in Japan.

    Focusing exclusively or primarily on genes is demotivating and leads to general underperformance. In general, many people are not aware of what they are capable of until they make a very serious and determined effort, and nearly everyone surprised themselves when properly motivated.

    But you are correct that there exist genetic limitations both between groups and individuals, and this needs to be discussed and accepted as well. Egalitarianism is not tenable and plainly contradicts reality.

    Which is why we need to avoid futile “one sided” positions like either HBD or Blank Slatism. Neither can stand alone

    HBD now is a reaction to Blank Slatism, which itself was a reaction to previous versions of HBD.

    Can we maybe move forward as a culture and create an intelligent synthesis of two extremes that are untenable on their own?

    No one here at least, is trying to replace HBD with Blank Slatism, but create a more intelligent HBD that is less “general” and more consistent with actual reality. Right now it’s a grotesque travesty.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor

    Regression towards the mean is one of the more misleading concepts in HBD. Every “race” is composed of subgroups with higher and lower means.
     
    Those are usually not real populations, though, inasmuch as they tend to intermarry with other groups. Therefore, the smart (but already somewhat less smart) sons and daughters of the family will marry people who are, again, positive outliers for their respective subgroups, and so the family as a whole will keep regressing down to the mean of the whole population.

    What you write is true of real populations, like Orthodox Jews or high caste Hindus. We’ve incidentally just found an HBD argument against these high IQ groups.

    hard work does play a tremendous role in achievement
     
    That much is true, but it’s not very healthy if you attribute all of your success to hard work, just as it’s not very healthy if you think hard work could play no role whatsoever. It’s also a problem if you attribute part of your success to your own hard work, and the rest to evil, like white supremacy.
  154. @AaronB
    Yes, Goethe is indeed a key figure in diagnosing the growing problem with European culture. He wrote an entire book on his travels to Italy, which I read when I was much younger.

    Around this time, certain distinctive attitudes came into being that are still with is today. Northern Europeans began looking to the global South for relief from the growing abstraction of the North. This was later extended to the Near East, and beyond. Goethe also received inspiration from Persian Muslim culture, and wrote s book of poems about this, which celebrates a more sensuous and body centered form of life.

    Not “global South”, but Italy and Greece – i.e. the centre of European civilization, prior to its importation of body-denying religion of the Levant.

    And Goethe’s view was more an extension of the Renaissance and the process which had earlier occurred inside Italy in men like Machiavelli.

    • Replies: @AaronB
    It started with Italy and Greece, which had not industrialized and were seen as more primitive and sensuous. Already by Goethes time it was moving towards the Near East, and by the late 19th century it was global almost.

    Piere Lori was writing about the exotic Orient, the Far East, and Flaubert was having his sordid adventures in the whorehouses of Egypt, and Rimbaud was gun-running in Ethiopia, etc, etc.

    So really, not global South so much as global non northern European. And within northern Europe, people sought refuge in the Middle Ages, or in the rugged and primitive Scotland of Sir Walter Scott with its preserved ethnic color.

    Basically, anywhere where "gray theory" had not yet cast its dark and gloomy shadow over life.

  155. @Dmitry
    Not "global South", but Italy and Greece - i.e. the centre of European civilization, prior to its importation of body-denying religion of the Levant.

    And Goethe's view was more an extension of the Renaissance and the process which had earlier occurred inside Italy in men like Machiavelli.

    It started with Italy and Greece, which had not industrialized and were seen as more primitive and sensuous. Already by Goethes time it was moving towards the Near East, and by the late 19th century it was global almost.

    Piere Lori was writing about the exotic Orient, the Far East, and Flaubert was having his sordid adventures in the whorehouses of Egypt, and Rimbaud was gun-running in Ethiopia, etc, etc.

    So really, not global South so much as global non northern European. And within northern Europe, people sought refuge in the Middle Ages, or in the rugged and primitive Scotland of Sir Walter Scott with its preserved ethnic color.

    Basically, anywhere where “gray theory” had not yet cast its dark and gloomy shadow over life.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    Italy of Machiavelli's time (at least in the last decades of his life) was possibly the most economically fast developing and advanced part of Europe. And in this context and with dangers of religious persecution, Machiavelli's project to reconstruct a Roman and non-Abrahamic morality.
  156. @dfordoom

    Because your desire is “social conservatism.” But a large proportion of people opposed to unfiltered third-world immigration to first or second world countries, do not necessarily care about “social conservatism”.
     
    That's why they're going to lose. Only a healthy society can save itself from that third-world immigration. A society obsessed with money, status and pleasure simply will not save itself.

    And a liberal society will never do anything to save itself from being overrun. It's just not the way liberals or liberal societies operate. Liberalism is a religion. Expecting a liberal to oppose immigration is crazy. Some liberals will express concerns, some will worry that maybe immigration is going too fast, but at the end of the day liberals (which in the Anglosphere includes all mainstream conservatives) will still support mass immigration. They can't do anything else.

    The idea that moderate or "intelligent" liberals can be potential allies is the purest fantasy.

    Social conservatism isn't a personal preference. It's essential to the survival of society.

    A society obsessed with money, status and pleasure simply will not save itself.

    Argument for social conservativism are not bad, and to me there are signs in favour and against it.

    It will all be tested in real life. If it is beneficial or some kind of panacea, then socially conservative people and societies will succeed, and the socially liberal ones will fail.

    However, both socially liberal and conservative traits are within most populations, and the most successful examples of social conservative occur when religious groups filter themselves into their own group within the same society.

    This happens in America – for example with Utah – under conditions of political liberalism. Mormons of Utah are one of the “showcase” samples of success of the socially conservative lifestyle, and it is not a result of being a “money denying” nationality.

    Strong people like Mormons, can survive well even dysfunctional countries like Mexico. So if you are confident about the benefits of social conservatism, then the effect kinds of this social conservatism will survive well in every environment.

    Mormons in Mexico have created an America-style standard of life.

    And a liberal society will never do anything to save itself from being overrun. It’s just not the way liberals or liberal societies operate.

    You might underestimate a robustness of social liberals.

    Last year I was in vacation in Israel. I walked in the evening from Arab area in Southern part of Tel Aviv, to the secular area in the North of that city. (To go from where I stay in Bat Yam to Tel Aviv, you can walk through the worse parts of Yafo).

    For me, this walk is interesting, because you begin in a very Arab area, where the atmosphere begins completely conservative, with only men sitting outside smoking. Then by end of the walk, you are in one of the most liberal and hipster areas of the Middle East, with disco music in the street.

    I prefer the atmosphere of the latter area, and have an intuitive sense it was stronger than the former area (although there is perhaps also a feeling the liberal oasis there is fragile).

    People are stubborn, and this is equally the people who prefer social liberalism will not abandom it.

    In the Dolphinarium beach in Tel Aviv, where the two populations can share the same beach. Neither side is going to change their life-style when confronted with another.

    Expecting a liberal to oppose immigration is crazy. Some liberals will express concerns, some will worry that maybe immigration is going too fast, but at the end of the day liberals (which in the Anglosphere includes all mainstream conservatives) will still support mass immigration. They can’t do anything else.

    It depends what kind of liberals. What about Pim Fortuyn in Netherlands?

    For example, German Reader, who writes here, seems to be liberal in the social sense, and he hates immigration to Germany because he does not want to be flooded with the backwards Middle Eastern people.

    A lot of the problem of third-world immigration to these countries, is that both the immigration and liberalism are collateral effect of a common cause – which is their higher level of economic development.

    A large part of these people who support the politics in Finland, discussed above will be socially liberal.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    When I think of a version of "social conservatism" I would support, I don't think of Afghanistan or Saudi Arabia. I suspect almost everybody on this blog would agree.

    The "conservative" values I would support would be basically pro-family, pro-natal and mildly eugenic. The highest ideal is to get married, stay married, be a loyal spouse and a good parent. The state should use incentives to support young responsible people in forming families, "free markets" be damned. As far as whether people have sex before their wedding night or whether Mom wears a bikini when the family goes to the beach, I really don't care at all (does anybody?).

    We are already seeing a lot of backlash against liberal norms in the sexual sphere: for example, the #MeToo movement I see as basically reactionary, though of course they would resent that label. The problem is that, instead of a return to the traditional norms, we are pushed into a sort of bizarro Puritanism where we're supposed to gladly accept obviously repulsive things (children taking sex hormones to "become" the opposite gender) while being appalled by the seemingly mundane (drunken college hook-ups are "rape," mild flirting is "sexual harassment"). Another example of growing anti-liberalism would be the backlash against free speech/freedom of expression, although again it's always an excuse to humiliate white middle-class heterosexuals and to make them feel bad about themselves.

    The current wisdom in the West--at least from my vantage point in the US--is that one's highest aspiration should be a "good career," and following from that a life of tasteful consumerism. Family is an afterthought, something you work in between your vacations and your ascent up the corporate ladder at some wanky multinational corporation. Patriotism is déclassé. That is the mentality we need to undo via "social conservatism," and to do so we will necessarily need to do battle with not only many feminists but also many capitalists, internationalists, and utopian universalist types. We can oppose this sort of constrained hedonism without advocating White Sharia; a middle ground is possible.

  157. @dfordoom

    Its also overwhelmingly agricultural
     
    Urbanisation may be the single biggest factor in demographic collapse.

    The irony is that it's difficult to see how urbanisation can be reversed without an enormous decrease in population. To increase fertility rates we need to decrease the population!

    Well, given that urban areas are typically birthrate deserts, one could argue that they’re doing a good job already. To a significant extent, I do feel that the problem is self-solving for better or worse if the high fertility rate of more traditional formulation, low urban birth rates and high suicide rates are considered.

    Insofar as neoliberalism is genuinely ugly, it also ultimately promotes a real despair in life even in its adherents and is necessarily more expensive on many levels and thus, self-abolishing. The key to undermining the system is to offer viable alterate systems, which is genuinely difficult but its a problem worth solving.

  158. @AaronB
    It started with Italy and Greece, which had not industrialized and were seen as more primitive and sensuous. Already by Goethes time it was moving towards the Near East, and by the late 19th century it was global almost.

    Piere Lori was writing about the exotic Orient, the Far East, and Flaubert was having his sordid adventures in the whorehouses of Egypt, and Rimbaud was gun-running in Ethiopia, etc, etc.

    So really, not global South so much as global non northern European. And within northern Europe, people sought refuge in the Middle Ages, or in the rugged and primitive Scotland of Sir Walter Scott with its preserved ethnic color.

    Basically, anywhere where "gray theory" had not yet cast its dark and gloomy shadow over life.

    Italy of Machiavelli’s time (at least in the last decades of his life) was possibly the most economically fast developing and advanced part of Europe. And in this context and with dangers of religious persecution, Machiavelli’s project to reconstruct a Roman and non-Abrahamic morality.

    • Replies: @AaronB
    Correct, but by Goethes time Italy was increasingly seen as a picturesque ethnic backwater.

    Machiavelli came at the end of the Middle Ages, which had grown tired and decadent, and sought to restore the virility and virtu of the ancient Romans. He thought Christianity made Italy weak. He was a part of the modernizing movement.

    For Goethe, Italy had a different significance. Goethe was also interested in and inspired by ancient Rome, but Goethe was developing a critique of the modern movement that had succeeded in replacing the culture of the Middle Ages (although Machiavelli would have been as horrified as Goethe was by the growing abstraction and disconnect from the body of this modern culture).

    But Goethe was also unusual among the Romantics for not being fond of the Middle Ages, and for appreciating the classical heritage of Europe. So in some ways he was coextensive with Machiavelli, as you say. But he was not a political theorist but a poet, and classical civilization had an artistic and poetic meaning for him not a political one.

  159. @Dmitry
    Italy of Machiavelli's time (at least in the last decades of his life) was possibly the most economically fast developing and advanced part of Europe. And in this context and with dangers of religious persecution, Machiavelli's project to reconstruct a Roman and non-Abrahamic morality.

    Correct, but by Goethes time Italy was increasingly seen as a picturesque ethnic backwater.

    Machiavelli came at the end of the Middle Ages, which had grown tired and decadent, and sought to restore the virility and virtu of the ancient Romans. He thought Christianity made Italy weak. He was a part of the modernizing movement.

    For Goethe, Italy had a different significance. Goethe was also interested in and inspired by ancient Rome, but Goethe was developing a critique of the modern movement that had succeeded in replacing the culture of the Middle Ages (although Machiavelli would have been as horrified as Goethe was by the growing abstraction and disconnect from the body of this modern culture).

    But Goethe was also unusual among the Romantics for not being fond of the Middle Ages, and for appreciating the classical heritage of Europe. So in some ways he was coextensive with Machiavelli, as you say. But he was not a political theorist but a poet, and classical civilization had an artistic and poetic meaning for him not a political one.

  160. @AaronB
    Regression towards the mean is one of the more misleading concepts in HBD. Every "race" is composed of subgroups with higher and lower means.

    Episcopalians, for instance, have a mean IQ of 109, as high as Jews. So their children will be regressing towards that mean, not the "racial" mean of 100.

    Now lets take an Episcopalian family with an average IQ of 130. One child has an IQ of 150. His children will be regressing towards the family mean of 130, not the Episcopalian mean of 109.

    Regression towards the mean is based on the idea that an individual who is significantly above his group average is benefiting from lucky random genetic mutations that will not be passed on to his children, and it all hinges on what his "group" is.

    Family's where both parents are PHDs and doctors are not notable for producing children that are significantly less able than them. Talent runs in families for a few generations at least, although families decay as well.

    IQ always prefers the most general level of analysis, and avoids the more specific and detailed one, thus producing extremely misleading pictures.


    When they’re not HBD aware they imagine that their superiority is due to their hard work, education and so on and they’ll continue to promote futile policies to promote these things to the lower IQ who cannot benefit from them and ignore policies that would actually be optimal for the less biologically fortunate.
     
    But hard work does play a tremendous role in achievement, and every high achieving person is well aware of it. Promoting hard work, discipline, and the like is extremely beneficial for all sectors of society. Like they do in Japan.

    Focusing exclusively or primarily on genes is demotivating and leads to general underperformance. In general, many people are not aware of what they are capable of until they make a very serious and determined effort, and nearly everyone surprised themselves when properly motivated.

    But you are correct that there exist genetic limitations both between groups and individuals, and this needs to be discussed and accepted as well. Egalitarianism is not tenable and plainly contradicts reality.

    Which is why we need to avoid futile "one sided" positions like either HBD or Blank Slatism. Neither can stand alone

    HBD now is a reaction to Blank Slatism, which itself was a reaction to previous versions of HBD.

    Can we maybe move forward as a culture and create an intelligent synthesis of two extremes that are untenable on their own?

    No one here at least, is trying to replace HBD with Blank Slatism, but create a more intelligent HBD that is less "general" and more consistent with actual reality. Right now it's a grotesque travesty.

    Regression towards the mean is one of the more misleading concepts in HBD. Every “race” is composed of subgroups with higher and lower means.

    Those are usually not real populations, though, inasmuch as they tend to intermarry with other groups. Therefore, the smart (but already somewhat less smart) sons and daughters of the family will marry people who are, again, positive outliers for their respective subgroups, and so the family as a whole will keep regressing down to the mean of the whole population.

    What you write is true of real populations, like Orthodox Jews or high caste Hindus. We’ve incidentally just found an HBD argument against these high IQ groups.

    hard work does play a tremendous role in achievement

    That much is true, but it’s not very healthy if you attribute all of your success to hard work, just as it’s not very healthy if you think hard work could play no role whatsoever. It’s also a problem if you attribute part of your success to your own hard work, and the rest to evil, like white supremacy.

    • Replies: @AaronB
    You're not thinking this fully through. High IQ people marry other high IQ people, who are themselves likely to belong to high IQ sub-castes or high IQ families within the larger race (practically speaking, a mini-caste)

    Now, of course it is possible that a high IQ individual from a high IQ caste or family will marry a high IQ individual that belongs to neither of his these, and his high IQ is a genetic fluke.

    That's why, historically, entire families were vetted by prospective marriage partners, not just the individual. In today's chaos, this is more of a danger - but even today upper class people are very careful whom they marry.

    Regression towards the mean happens, but if you step away from such airy generalizations and look at it from ground level, it is easy to see that it is a marginal phenomenon.

    That much is true, but it’s not very healthy if you attribute all of your success to hard work, just as it’s not very healthy if you think hard work could play no role whatsoever. It’s also a problem if you attribute part of your success to your own hard work, and the rest to evil, like white supremacy.
     
    Of course. An intelligent person knows that even pure luck plays an outside role in success.

    We need to learn how to juggle multiple factors in our models of reality - rather than an exclusive focus on one factor. We need to return to complexity thinking and away from simplification models, away from generalization models.

    Its like as a civilization we have lost the capacity to do complexity thinking. A new renaissance will involve regenerating this ability.
  161. @reiner Tor

    Regression towards the mean is one of the more misleading concepts in HBD. Every “race” is composed of subgroups with higher and lower means.
     
    Those are usually not real populations, though, inasmuch as they tend to intermarry with other groups. Therefore, the smart (but already somewhat less smart) sons and daughters of the family will marry people who are, again, positive outliers for their respective subgroups, and so the family as a whole will keep regressing down to the mean of the whole population.

    What you write is true of real populations, like Orthodox Jews or high caste Hindus. We’ve incidentally just found an HBD argument against these high IQ groups.

    hard work does play a tremendous role in achievement
     
    That much is true, but it’s not very healthy if you attribute all of your success to hard work, just as it’s not very healthy if you think hard work could play no role whatsoever. It’s also a problem if you attribute part of your success to your own hard work, and the rest to evil, like white supremacy.

    You’re not thinking this fully through. High IQ people marry other high IQ people, who are themselves likely to belong to high IQ sub-castes or high IQ families within the larger race (practically speaking, a mini-caste)

    Now, of course it is possible that a high IQ individual from a high IQ caste or family will marry a high IQ individual that belongs to neither of his these, and his high IQ is a genetic fluke.

    That’s why, historically, entire families were vetted by prospective marriage partners, not just the individual. In today’s chaos, this is more of a danger – but even today upper class people are very careful whom they marry.

    Regression towards the mean happens, but if you step away from such airy generalizations and look at it from ground level, it is easy to see that it is a marginal phenomenon.

    That much is true, but it’s not very healthy if you attribute all of your success to hard work, just as it’s not very healthy if you think hard work could play no role whatsoever. It’s also a problem if you attribute part of your success to your own hard work, and the rest to evil, like white supremacy.

    Of course. An intelligent person knows that even pure luck plays an outside role in success.

    We need to learn how to juggle multiple factors in our models of reality – rather than an exclusive focus on one factor. We need to return to complexity thinking and away from simplification models, away from generalization models.

    Its like as a civilization we have lost the capacity to do complexity thinking. A new renaissance will involve regenerating this ability.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor

    High IQ people marry other high IQ people, who are themselves likely to belong to high IQ sub-castes or high IQ families within the larger race (practically speaking, a mini-caste)
     
    The data in The Son Also Rises shows that, historically, families tended to regress to the mean, despite the theoretically way stricter class limits. (And, in parallel, as fate had it, some families rose above the mean, only to later regress back. Some are still at the top, but very strict endogamy is the only way for any elite group to stay at the top. Wishy-washy assortative mating (and even medieval class near-endogamy) is not nearly enough: if you are at the top, and marry someone from the top, but with a slightly open marriage system, your spouse will most likely be from a slightly lower stratum, just luck pushed her to the top. Because the stratum immediately below the top is already vastly larger. Then your children will regress, and they will, again, choose a spouse from their own stratum - who will, in turn, most likely come from a still lower stratum. It was slower in the Middle Ages, then faster in modernity, and perhaps slowing down again, but it’s simply unavoidable.
  162. @Daniel Chieh
    That said, in all honesty, self-selection isn't hardly a bad strategy at all and its something that should be analyzed and used more when building policy.

    Trying to force people to behave a certain way against what they wish is like pushing water upstream; perhaps possible but difficult. Its always better whenever possible to find individuals for a project or goal who already have it in mind to be cooperative.

    Insofar as traits are hereditary, this also means that such policies combined with the same population provide both the nature and nurture outgrow their rivals so as long as it is cushioned from other disruptive influences.

    That said, in all honesty, self-selection isn’t hardly a bad strategy at all and its something that should be analyzed and used more when building policy.

    Self-selection gets a bad rap because this idea in radical form naturally comes to antisocial crazies and cultists. But the Japanese who aren’t at home with the salaryman culture and want to have time and space to raise families (and not become paupers because of their unconventional choice, hence financial assistance is needed) – are nothing but psychologically and historically normal. One of historic Japanese traits, as 19th century travelers noted, was that they loved to interact with children.

    But no less touching on the part of adult Japanese is the love for children in general, even if they are strangers and even unknown. I remember, I already had a chance to mark this characteristic. Adults at meetings, whether on the street, in the courtyard, will never pass by without caressing the child or saying a kind word, a good wish. And so that someone decided to offend a child, I never saw this here, as I did not see any fights between children or adults. I will not argue that there were no fights at all, but, I repeat, I have never seen them, and this means something, as a feature of popular morals. But I often have to see adults, respectable people and even old people personally take a lively part in children’s amusements: they fly kites with their children and grandchildren, play a shuttlecock, shoot arrows, catch dragonflies and beetles to tie a string around their leg and let them fly, or they make wagons, windmills, boats, etc. from wood. And this is not just to amuse the children, but it seems that they themselves also enjoy playing, so looking at them you sometimes think – what sweet and kind grown-up children they are!..

  163. AP says:
    @songbird
    I think the guy should be cut a little slack.

    Finding out the national IQ of every country in the word is probably beyond the means of an independent researcher. What he can do is create a open database to be scrutinized and amended, until it is the best possible paper estimate of every country.

    As we have seen with Lynn (who I believe had less openness) , this process tends to create regional outliers - probably a filter like genetic distance should be used to disregard some of these outliers, and they should be thought of as probably being more like their neighbors.

    Eventually, there will be better tests and better databases, but everything requires a starting point.

    I agree. The problem is when something is summarized as “a national IQ” when it is instead merely IQ data from whatever research papers in that country. If some country “X” had only one study that involved IQ, and it was about chronic alcoholics, or kids who had lead poisoning, this would go up as the estimated national IQ on the chart. Apparently Nepal’s estimate was based on some studies of rural areas with malnutrition which is about as silly as the hypotheticals I gave.

    A nationwide standardized test that is correlated to IQ, like PISA, probably provides a better, though still imperfect, estimate than does a collection of various studies that happened to have been conducted in the country.

  164. @Jaakko Raipala
    Nokia was founded in the 19th century and at that time it was owned by a bunch of Swedes and Germans and foreign investors. It is a very old company that used to produce everything from rubber boots to TVs but once their cell phone business shot up they separated all the old parts so effectively the 19th century Nokia is in separate companies now (still making rubber boots).

    The language of higher education in the 19th century was still theoretically Latin but in practice they used a lot of Swedish or German. Finnish was banned until Alexander II 's personal orders but not a lot of Finnish was used until the 20th century when aristocratic privilege stopped being the main way of getting in and Finns started coming.

    If you want to study something like science or engineering, Swedish and Finnish are too small and you have to learn a bigger language. In practice that used to mean German and the teachers would just tell you to read some of the big works on the subject which were all in German even if the language of the lectures was Latin (or Swedish or even Finnish). German is very easy for Swedes to pick up and not easy for Finns. Today of course if you sign up for a university course in Finnish or Swedish they'll usually just tell you to read a bunch of books in English.

    The military was actually one place where Finns could have careers and some aristocratic families have part Finnish roots because of Finns who were promoted due to military success, though they always quickly intermarried and Germanized. Of course it was still hard since the language was either Swedish or German. One unusual thing about Finland as a colony was that the landowners largely remained ethnic Finns and landowners were granted tax privileges if they could equip a cavalryman etc so they functioned as a sort of a pseudo-knight class in those wars.

    Finnish landowners were basically a puppet elite class that made rebellion hard because local Finnish elites would be loyal to the King (or later Tsar) rather than any Finnish national ambition.

    …landowners largely remained ethnic Finns and landowners were granted tax privileges if they could equip a cavalryman etc so they functioned as a sort of a pseudo-knight class in those wars.

    Thanks. Pseudo-knights is a great name for the metropolitan comprador elites that have been destroying Europe. They like to ‘equip’ others, but never fight themselves. Their bosses don’t accept them as noble, yet find their yearnings for status and perks useful.

    Nokia making rubber boots is fascinating, Finland is marshy. I am just letting you know that Swedes (after a few drinks) like to off-handedly claim Nokia as theirs. Our main 19th century conglomerate – Skoda, very Czech, almost too much so – started with bakery equipment and similar small engineering stuff. Skoda eventually made it big in the arms industry, WWI was very good. Another local success story, Bata shoes, started by selling boots to the Habsburg army. Wars are good for business, maybe we should have one, all those under-employed aspirational pseudo-knights hanging around big cities could get busy…

  165. @Archimedes
    If Islamists are the enemy, and Islamists are mostly Inbred, does that mean that its most optimal to fight them with out-bred people? Or in-bred people?

    This is the quintessential question.

    there’s probably an optimal level of inbreeding vs outbreeding for tribal conflict and southern/eastern euros are probably closer to that optimum imo.

  166. @Bassarab
    Every single High-IQ nation is not reproducing at replacement level rates. Why then do these HBDers not ask the question of whether High-IQ is good thing or not? Or rather, if the comforts and luxuries of the modern world are actually destructive?

    we have a hostile elite who want open borders – if we didn’t have a hostile elite the high IQ nations would be developing policies to fix the problem.

  167. @dfordoom

    Its also overwhelmingly agricultural
     
    Urbanisation may be the single biggest factor in demographic collapse.

    The irony is that it's difficult to see how urbanisation can be reversed without an enormous decrease in population. To increase fertility rates we need to decrease the population!

    To increase fertility rates we need to decrease the population!

    yes – in the absence of immigration we wouldn’t need to do anything – the population would fall until it reached a new equilibrium.

  168. Anonymous[151] • Disclaimer says:
    @Dmitry

    A society obsessed with money, status and pleasure simply will not save itself.

     

    Argument for social conservativism are not bad, and to me there are signs in favour and against it.

    It will all be tested in real life. If it is beneficial or some kind of panacea, then socially conservative people and societies will succeed, and the socially liberal ones will fail.

    However, both socially liberal and conservative traits are within most populations, and the most successful examples of social conservative occur when religious groups filter themselves into their own group within the same society.

    This happens in America - for example with Utah - under conditions of political liberalism. Mormons of Utah are one of the "showcase" samples of success of the socially conservative lifestyle, and it is not a result of being a "money denying" nationality.

    Strong people like Mormons, can survive well even dysfunctional countries like Mexico. So if you are confident about the benefits of social conservatism, then the effect kinds of this social conservatism will survive well in every environment.

    Mormons in Mexico have created an America-style standard of life.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PKxW2MXTocQ


    And a liberal society will never do anything to save itself from being overrun. It’s just not the way liberals or liberal societies operate.
     
    You might underestimate a robustness of social liberals.

    Last year I was in vacation in Israel. I walked in the evening from Arab area in Southern part of Tel Aviv, to the secular area in the North of that city. (To go from where I stay in Bat Yam to Tel Aviv, you can walk through the worse parts of Yafo).

    For me, this walk is interesting, because you begin in a very Arab area, where the atmosphere begins completely conservative, with only men sitting outside smoking. Then by end of the walk, you are in one of the most liberal and hipster areas of the Middle East, with disco music in the street.

    I prefer the atmosphere of the latter area, and have an intuitive sense it was stronger than the former area (although there is perhaps also a feeling the liberal oasis there is fragile).

    -

    People are stubborn, and this is equally the people who prefer social liberalism will not abandom it.

    In the Dolphinarium beach in Tel Aviv, where the two populations can share the same beach. Neither side is going to change their life-style when confronted with another.

    https://i.imgur.com/xj0RM0K.jpg

    https://i.imgur.com/BS0BdvA.jpg


    Expecting a liberal to oppose immigration is crazy. Some liberals will express concerns, some will worry that maybe immigration is going too fast, but at the end of the day liberals (which in the Anglosphere includes all mainstream conservatives) will still support mass immigration. They can’t do anything else.
     
    It depends what kind of liberals. What about Pim Fortuyn in Netherlands?

    For example, German Reader, who writes here, seems to be liberal in the social sense, and he hates immigration to Germany because he does not want to be flooded with the backwards Middle Eastern people.

    A lot of the problem of third-world immigration to these countries, is that both the immigration and liberalism are collateral effect of a common cause - which is their higher level of economic development.

    A large part of these people who support the politics in Finland, discussed above will be socially liberal.

    When I think of a version of “social conservatism” I would support, I don’t think of Afghanistan or Saudi Arabia. I suspect almost everybody on this blog would agree.

    The “conservative” values I would support would be basically pro-family, pro-natal and mildly eugenic. The highest ideal is to get married, stay married, be a loyal spouse and a good parent. The state should use incentives to support young responsible people in forming families, “free markets” be damned. As far as whether people have sex before their wedding night or whether Mom wears a bikini when the family goes to the beach, I really don’t care at all (does anybody?).

    We are already seeing a lot of backlash against liberal norms in the sexual sphere: for example, the #MeToo movement I see as basically reactionary, though of course they would resent that label. The problem is that, instead of a return to the traditional norms, we are pushed into a sort of bizarro Puritanism where we’re supposed to gladly accept obviously repulsive things (children taking sex hormones to “become” the opposite gender) while being appalled by the seemingly mundane (drunken college hook-ups are “rape,” mild flirting is “sexual harassment”). Another example of growing anti-liberalism would be the backlash against free speech/freedom of expression, although again it’s always an excuse to humiliate white middle-class heterosexuals and to make them feel bad about themselves.

    The current wisdom in the West–at least from my vantage point in the US–is that one’s highest aspiration should be a “good career,” and following from that a life of tasteful consumerism. Family is an afterthought, something you work in between your vacations and your ascent up the corporate ladder at some wanky multinational corporation. Patriotism is déclassé. That is the mentality we need to undo via “social conservatism,” and to do so we will necessarily need to do battle with not only many feminists but also many capitalists, internationalists, and utopian universalist types. We can oppose this sort of constrained hedonism without advocating White Sharia; a middle ground is possible.

    • Replies: @Archimedes

    As far as whether people have sex before their wedding night or whether Mom wears a bikini when the family goes to the beach, I really don’t care at all (does anybody?).
     
    I think it's more about having the discipline to keep it in your pants until the marriage is finalized.

    The main problem with social liberalism is that it always "Begs the Question" on other issues. One thing leads to another, which leads to another, etc. That's why it's hard to keep socially liberal societies held together, because people always want to pull at the fringes, as opposed to illiberal societies which suppress or eliminate those fringe elements: (People who want homosexuality, open boarders, more women in govt, more handouts, etc).

    These things all come as a package, you cannot really pick and choose, because some one is always going to try to stretch the rules. If you can't be firm with them, then you don't have a country.

    It's about being firm, and sticking to the rules.

    , @dfordoom

    When I think of a version of “social conservatism” I would support, I don’t think of Afghanistan or Saudi Arabia. I suspect almost everybody on this blog would agree.
     
    Yeah. When most of us think of “social conservatism" we're thinking of the West in the 1950s, not Saudi Arabia.

    It's also important to note that the true value of social conservatism is as a means to an end. The end is a society that doesn't try to destroy itself.

    Social conservatism means firstly self-control. Unlimited sexual freedom might sound like fun but it's catastrophically socially destructive.

    Secondly social conservatism means thinking long-term rather than short-term - thinking in terms of long-term contentment rather than short-term pleasure.

    Thirdly it means recognising that traditional sex roles lead to happiness and contentment, and to well-adjusted children.

    Fourthly it means recognising that family is more important than money or status.

    Social conservatism is necessary because it's the only way to achieve a stable society and a society with a chance of not self-destructing. It has nothing to do with religion. I'm a social conservative but I'm certainly no Christian. I'm a social conservative on purely pragmatic grounds.
  169. Anonymous[679] • Disclaimer says:
    @Oleaginous Outrager

    Oh, my mistake, I hadn’t realized that the US military had defeated Arab forces in the 1948, 1967 and 1973 wars.
     
    Did it with homemade weapons, did they? No support at all from the US.

    The US currently gives ~$3 billion dollars a year to Israel in aid. Israel’s GDP is ~$350 billion.
     
    Three billion to a country of only 8.7 million. I guess crime stat denialists aren't the only ones who hate those two terrible words, "per capita".

    https://ifamericaknew.org/stat/cost.html

    "GDP" is a joke stat.

    Did it with homemade weapons, did they? No support at all from the US.

    In fact, local production played a significant role even in the 1948 war, e.g.:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayalon_Institute

    And today of course Israel has a massive defense industry, which manufactures and exports large quantities of arms. Its current share of global arms exports is around 3%, compared to its ~0.12% share of world population.

    https://www.sipri.org/sites/default/files/2019-03/fs_1903_at_2018_0.pdf

    Furthermore, purchasing arms/receiving aid from the US is no guarantee of military success—consider e.g. ARVN. Indeed, Arab armies, like that of the Saudis today, have often likewise had high-quality military equipment purchased from foreign countries that has only translated into modest, at best, results. The human competence necessary to operate the machinery of modern warfare is not a factor that can be taken for granted.

    Three billion to a country of only 8.7 million. I guess crime stat denialists aren’t the only ones who hate those two terrible words, “per capita”.

    Ironically, you seem to be the party in this discussion struggling with the simple and useful concept of “per capita.” 3 billion divided by 8.7 million is obviously less than 1,000. According to your own source, If America Knew, (quoting Professors Walt and Mearsheimer), US aid to Israel is the per capita equivalent of an annual $500 subsidy to each individual Israeli:

    https://ifamericaknew.org/stat/usaid.html

    Israel’s per capita GDP is now around $40,000.

    “GDP” is a joke stat.

    On the contrary, GDP is a very useful measurement:

    https://www.investopedia.com/terms/g/gdp.asp

    • Replies: @songbird

    3 billion divided by 8.7 million is obviously less than 1,000.
     
    Presumably, it circulates - changing hands multiple times in a year, so that it accounts for substantially more of the per capita. But, who knows, maybe they only use it to buy foreign-made military equipment. Of course, there are other subsidies of that nature. But, if so, it would still add to the per capita by allowing them to spend money more freely.

    There's something rather unseemly about AIPAC and its like. You would think of it was unnecessary, then they would care about the optics of it. But perhaps that is more about political psychology.

    I would say they do as least as well as Portugal on their own, and probably better, meaning they should get off welfare. If it is not good for the individual or group, then it is not good for the nation.
  170. @AaronB
    You're not thinking this fully through. High IQ people marry other high IQ people, who are themselves likely to belong to high IQ sub-castes or high IQ families within the larger race (practically speaking, a mini-caste)

    Now, of course it is possible that a high IQ individual from a high IQ caste or family will marry a high IQ individual that belongs to neither of his these, and his high IQ is a genetic fluke.

    That's why, historically, entire families were vetted by prospective marriage partners, not just the individual. In today's chaos, this is more of a danger - but even today upper class people are very careful whom they marry.

    Regression towards the mean happens, but if you step away from such airy generalizations and look at it from ground level, it is easy to see that it is a marginal phenomenon.

    That much is true, but it’s not very healthy if you attribute all of your success to hard work, just as it’s not very healthy if you think hard work could play no role whatsoever. It’s also a problem if you attribute part of your success to your own hard work, and the rest to evil, like white supremacy.
     
    Of course. An intelligent person knows that even pure luck plays an outside role in success.

    We need to learn how to juggle multiple factors in our models of reality - rather than an exclusive focus on one factor. We need to return to complexity thinking and away from simplification models, away from generalization models.

    Its like as a civilization we have lost the capacity to do complexity thinking. A new renaissance will involve regenerating this ability.

    High IQ people marry other high IQ people, who are themselves likely to belong to high IQ sub-castes or high IQ families within the larger race (practically speaking, a mini-caste)

    The data in The Son Also Rises shows that, historically, families tended to regress to the mean, despite the theoretically way stricter class limits. (And, in parallel, as fate had it, some families rose above the mean, only to later regress back. Some are still at the top, but very strict endogamy is the only way for any elite group to stay at the top. Wishy-washy assortative mating (and even medieval class near-endogamy) is not nearly enough: if you are at the top, and marry someone from the top, but with a slightly open marriage system, your spouse will most likely be from a slightly lower stratum, just luck pushed her to the top. Because the stratum immediately below the top is already vastly larger. Then your children will regress, and they will, again, choose a spouse from their own stratum – who will, in turn, most likely come from a still lower stratum. It was slower in the Middle Ages, then faster in modernity, and perhaps slowing down again, but it’s simply unavoidable.

  171. @Anonymous

    Did it with homemade weapons, did they? No support at all from the US.
     
    In fact, local production played a significant role even in the 1948 war, e.g.:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ayalon_Institute

    And today of course Israel has a massive defense industry, which manufactures and exports large quantities of arms. Its current share of global arms exports is around 3%, compared to its ~0.12% share of world population.

    https://www.sipri.org/sites/default/files/2019-03/fs_1903_at_2018_0.pdf

    Furthermore, purchasing arms/receiving aid from the US is no guarantee of military success---consider e.g. ARVN. Indeed, Arab armies, like that of the Saudis today, have often likewise had high-quality military equipment purchased from foreign countries that has only translated into modest, at best, results. The human competence necessary to operate the machinery of modern warfare is not a factor that can be taken for granted.

    Three billion to a country of only 8.7 million. I guess crime stat denialists aren’t the only ones who hate those two terrible words, “per capita”.
     
    Ironically, you seem to be the party in this discussion struggling with the simple and useful concept of "per capita." 3 billion divided by 8.7 million is obviously less than 1,000. According to your own source, If America Knew, (quoting Professors Walt and Mearsheimer), US aid to Israel is the per capita equivalent of an annual $500 subsidy to each individual Israeli:

    https://ifamericaknew.org/stat/usaid.html


    Israel's per capita GDP is now around $40,000.


    “GDP” is a joke stat.
     
    On the contrary, GDP is a very useful measurement:

    https://www.investopedia.com/terms/g/gdp.asp

    3 billion divided by 8.7 million is obviously less than 1,000.

    Presumably, it circulates – changing hands multiple times in a year, so that it accounts for substantially more of the per capita. But, who knows, maybe they only use it to buy foreign-made military equipment. Of course, there are other subsidies of that nature. But, if so, it would still add to the per capita by allowing them to spend money more freely.

    There’s something rather unseemly about AIPAC and its like. You would think of it was unnecessary, then they would care about the optics of it. But perhaps that is more about political psychology.

    I would say they do as least as well as Portugal on their own, and probably better, meaning they should get off welfare. If it is not good for the individual or group, then it is not good for the nation.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    In an expensive skyscraper area of Tel Aviv, I saw a lot of what I think are very rich American and Canadian Jewish kids.

    It's obviously many young women (from LA or New York?), with sunglasses, talking English loudly while walking a dog, all located near the new residential properties in the city. Their whole manner and style is completely different to the local population.

    So this is an example of how money from America, was previously boosting the Israeli economy, through children of American millionaires buying property in the skyscrapers there, and then living a lazy life of sponsoring the restaurants and cafes near their skyscraper.

    (It's like an inverse version of the children of richer Russians, including officials, buying property in London and Miami)

    However, Israel stupidly, destroyed this flow by adding taxes against foreign buyers of real estate - a perfect example of how populist government policy can damage your economy.


    Around 5% of Israeli property is owned by foreign residents. This might not sound like a lot, but if you reckon that many of the foreigners buying here are purchasing at the higher end of the market, it’s easy to see that this involves billions of dollars’ worth of property.

    But in the last few years the drop in sales to foreigners has been precipitous and is close to the collapse of the market that took place when Israel was wracked by terrorist attacks in 2003.

    (...)

    But some of this collapse is government-driven. The message that the government is sending out to foreign buyers is: The good days are over.

    And how do governments send out their messages?

    By differential taxation.

    A foreign resident no longer benefits from the lower tax brackets, which now apply only to Israeli residents.

    (...)

    Until the change in the law, a foreign resident buying in Israel was equal to the Israeli. But since the amendment to the real-estate tax law, only Israeli residents have the right to pay a lower acquisition tax upon purchase. A foreign resident has no such exemption...

    But today, a foreign resident who wants to sell his property and benefit from the exemption must prove that his apartment in Israel serves as his personal residence and is his sole apartment in the country. Added to that is a new draconian requirement: The foreign resident must prove he does not have an apartment in the country of his domicile!

    This means that foreign residents buying a second home in Israel have no exemption from the heavy capital-gains tax.

     

    https://www.jpost.com/Israel-News/Foreign-buyers-of-Israeli-properties-Are-the-good-times-over-549505
    , @reiner Tor
    The first rule of debating hasbara agents is never believe what they say.

    The second rule of debating hasbara agents is never believe what they say.

    The third rule of debating hasbara agents is never believe what they say.

    The numbers are larger because they receive US government guarantees for some of their bonds. These are often provided during recessions and allow Israel to spend their way out of the recession. The interest on these is very low, which works like a direct subsidy to Israel. As a result, the Israeli military industry is rarely plagued by the cancellations, slowdowns and restarts like we can see with the military programs of even much larger countries like Russia. Just compare Israeli military programs going on for decades without interruption with the PAK FA program, which is basically on hold now. I need not explain the difference in business climate or the profitability and viability of a domestic defense industry compared to any other country.

    Part of the military aid can be spent on domestically procured items - a truly unique way to give military aid, which is normally spent on the equipment produced by the aid-giver’s defense industry.

    Israel receives technologies, which even countries legally allied to the US don’t receive.

    The US sometimes funded or participated in joint development programs for weapons systems which it didn’t need at the time.

    I’m sometimes a bit skeptical about the success of Israeli firms in selling to the US military: while I don’t think these are low quality products, I’d think that the domestic American military industry would also be able to develop those, for a little extra funding, and if the foreign source would be another country, they’d proceed to provide the funding.

    But even if you take the numbers provided by the hasbara agents at face value: $3 billion is almost 1% of Israeli GDP, which is a fifth of their military budget, and probably at least half of their procurements. Another way of looking at it is that usually countries need brutal austerity packages to reduce the deficit by 2-3% of GDP, so that the cutting of Israeli aid (even without loan guarantees etc.) would require a moderately sized austerity package to offset.
  172. @Hyperborean

    Ah, finally an HBD follower not talking out of his ass… do tell, in how many non liberal countries have you resided in your 14 years of life?
     
    Although you are not very serious, I currently live in China.

    China is already a liberal country in many aspects. No the situation there is not comparable to the idiocy going on in most of the West, but China is by no means a non-liberal/absolutist country. Like so many 4chan HBD “reactionary warriors” you really have no fucking idea of what you are talking about, when you refer to a “non liberal” country, or have you?

    Even Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy, the tired examples of illiberalism, were surprisingly liberal compared to say Absolutist Spain or France.

    • Replies: @Hyperborean

    China is already a liberal country in many aspects. No the situation there is not comparable to the idiocy going on in most of the West, but China is by no means a non-liberal/absolutist country. Like so many 4chan HBD “reactionary warriors” you really have no fucking idea of what you are talking about, when you refer to a “non liberal” country, or have you?
     
    Lets have a look at the "decent enough" definition you provided:

    Liberals espouse a wide array of views depending on their understanding of these principles, but they generally support limited government, individual rights (including civil rights and human rights), capitalism (free markets), democracy, secularism, gender equality, racial equality, internationalism, freedom of speech, freedom of the press and freedom of religion.
     
    So liberalism, according to definition you accept, is:
    -Limited government
    -civil and "human" rights
    -free markets
    -democracy
    -secularism
    -gender equality
    -racial equality
    -internationalism
    -freedom of speech, press and religion

    Even Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy, the tired examples of illiberalism, were surprisingly liberal compared to say Absolutist Spain or France.
     
    Liberal is a subset of Not Reactionary, not equal.

    But fine, if I get to be Literally Hitler, then I don't mind calling myself a liberal.
  173. anon[262] • Disclaimer says:

    China is already a liberal country in many aspects.

    Liberal country that demolishes mosques and send millions to concentration camps? Your definition of liberalism seems to be different from usual.

    Even Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy, the tired examples of illiberalism, were surprisingly liberal compared to say Absolutist Spain or France.

    [citation needed]

    • Agree: reiner Tor
  174. [4chan type] HBD Bloggers [and their fanboys] Are Autists Who Can’t Win Any Culture and Civilization Wars

    Indeed, but not only that. They and their followers are mere useful idiots. They remind me of women.

    They need to be heard. All the nagging, bitching and moaning about IQ and liberalism, it is not really about getting constructive advice and working towards problem resolution. It is all about being heard and understood. A little pat on the back is all they need.

    Meanwhile, their Jewish masters are lobbying. Lobbying to bring more “low IQ” Muslims and Africans. Lobbying to bomb the shit out of ME countries. Lobbying to keep the phony “War on Terror” forever. Lobbying to crush freedom of speech and dissent in the West. Lobbying to demonise HBD and “alt right” types. In other words, they are raping their asses politically.

    But alas, HBD – Sailer fanboys, as is also the case with most women, just love getting rough fucked. It is a perfect match.

    • Replies: @anon

    4chan
     
    The 4chan crew can organize, although only online. The problem is that they organize for completely retarded things, like posting some stupid and disgusting memes and framing Sam Hyde for every mass shooting.

    Your complaint belongs to mainstream conservatives, they are completely inept about organizing and working together (excepting gun nuts, and note gun rights are the only thing where right wing is winning).

    You are not the first who noticed this, watch these twitter accounts. They are calling the right's incompetence for a long time, for no avail.

    https://twitter.com/hradzka
    https://twitter.com/EvanPlatinum
    , @notanon
    they have been winning
  175. anon[118] • Disclaimer says:
    @Scalper
    [4chan type] HBD Bloggers [and their fanboys] Are Autists Who Can't Win Any Culture and Civilization Wars

    Indeed, but not only that. They and their followers are mere useful idiots. They remind me of women.

    They need to be heard. All the nagging, bitching and moaning about IQ and liberalism, it is not really about getting constructive advice and working towards problem resolution. It is all about being heard and understood. A little pat on the back is all they need.

    Meanwhile, their Jewish masters are lobbying. Lobbying to bring more "low IQ" Muslims and Africans. Lobbying to bomb the shit out of ME countries. Lobbying to keep the phony "War on Terror" forever. Lobbying to crush freedom of speech and dissent in the West. Lobbying to demonise HBD and "alt right" types. In other words, they are raping their asses politically.

    But alas, HBD - Sailer fanboys, as is also the case with most women, just love getting rough fucked. It is a perfect match.

    4chan

    The 4chan crew can organize, although only online. The problem is that they organize for completely retarded things, like posting some stupid and disgusting memes and framing Sam Hyde for every mass shooting.

    Your complaint belongs to mainstream conservatives, they are completely inept about organizing and working together (excepting gun nuts, and note gun rights are the only thing where right wing is winning).

    You are not the first who noticed this, watch these twitter accounts. They are calling the right’s incompetence for a long time, for no avail.


  176. @Anonymous
    When I think of a version of "social conservatism" I would support, I don't think of Afghanistan or Saudi Arabia. I suspect almost everybody on this blog would agree.

    The "conservative" values I would support would be basically pro-family, pro-natal and mildly eugenic. The highest ideal is to get married, stay married, be a loyal spouse and a good parent. The state should use incentives to support young responsible people in forming families, "free markets" be damned. As far as whether people have sex before their wedding night or whether Mom wears a bikini when the family goes to the beach, I really don't care at all (does anybody?).

    We are already seeing a lot of backlash against liberal norms in the sexual sphere: for example, the #MeToo movement I see as basically reactionary, though of course they would resent that label. The problem is that, instead of a return to the traditional norms, we are pushed into a sort of bizarro Puritanism where we're supposed to gladly accept obviously repulsive things (children taking sex hormones to "become" the opposite gender) while being appalled by the seemingly mundane (drunken college hook-ups are "rape," mild flirting is "sexual harassment"). Another example of growing anti-liberalism would be the backlash against free speech/freedom of expression, although again it's always an excuse to humiliate white middle-class heterosexuals and to make them feel bad about themselves.

    The current wisdom in the West--at least from my vantage point in the US--is that one's highest aspiration should be a "good career," and following from that a life of tasteful consumerism. Family is an afterthought, something you work in between your vacations and your ascent up the corporate ladder at some wanky multinational corporation. Patriotism is déclassé. That is the mentality we need to undo via "social conservatism," and to do so we will necessarily need to do battle with not only many feminists but also many capitalists, internationalists, and utopian universalist types. We can oppose this sort of constrained hedonism without advocating White Sharia; a middle ground is possible.

    As far as whether people have sex before their wedding night or whether Mom wears a bikini when the family goes to the beach, I really don’t care at all (does anybody?).

    I think it’s more about having the discipline to keep it in your pants until the marriage is finalized.

    The main problem with social liberalism is that it always “Begs the Question” on other issues. One thing leads to another, which leads to another, etc. That’s why it’s hard to keep socially liberal societies held together, because people always want to pull at the fringes, as opposed to illiberal societies which suppress or eliminate those fringe elements: (People who want homosexuality, open boarders, more women in govt, more handouts, etc).

    These things all come as a package, you cannot really pick and choose, because some one is always going to try to stretch the rules. If you can’t be firm with them, then you don’t have a country.

    It’s about being firm, and sticking to the rules.

  177. @Scalper
    [4chan type] HBD Bloggers [and their fanboys] Are Autists Who Can't Win Any Culture and Civilization Wars

    Indeed, but not only that. They and their followers are mere useful idiots. They remind me of women.

    They need to be heard. All the nagging, bitching and moaning about IQ and liberalism, it is not really about getting constructive advice and working towards problem resolution. It is all about being heard and understood. A little pat on the back is all they need.

    Meanwhile, their Jewish masters are lobbying. Lobbying to bring more "low IQ" Muslims and Africans. Lobbying to bomb the shit out of ME countries. Lobbying to keep the phony "War on Terror" forever. Lobbying to crush freedom of speech and dissent in the West. Lobbying to demonise HBD and "alt right" types. In other words, they are raping their asses politically.

    But alas, HBD - Sailer fanboys, as is also the case with most women, just love getting rough fucked. It is a perfect match.

    they have been winning

  178. @Scalper
    China is already a liberal country in many aspects. No the situation there is not comparable to the idiocy going on in most of the West, but China is by no means a non-liberal/absolutist country. Like so many 4chan HBD "reactionary warriors" you really have no fucking idea of what you are talking about, when you refer to a "non liberal" country, or have you?

    Even Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy, the tired examples of illiberalism, were surprisingly liberal compared to say Absolutist Spain or France.

    China is already a liberal country in many aspects. No the situation there is not comparable to the idiocy going on in most of the West, but China is by no means a non-liberal/absolutist country. Like so many 4chan HBD “reactionary warriors” you really have no fucking idea of what you are talking about, when you refer to a “non liberal” country, or have you?

    Lets have a look at the “decent enough” definition you provided:

    Liberals espouse a wide array of views depending on their understanding of these principles, but they generally support limited government, individual rights (including civil rights and human rights), capitalism (free markets), democracy, secularism, gender equality, racial equality, internationalism, freedom of speech, freedom of the press and freedom of religion.

    So liberalism, according to definition you accept, is:
    -Limited government
    -civil and “human” rights
    -free markets
    -democracy
    -secularism
    -gender equality
    -racial equality
    -internationalism
    -freedom of speech, press and religion

    Even Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy, the tired examples of illiberalism, were surprisingly liberal compared to say Absolutist Spain or France.

    Liberal is a subset of Not Reactionary, not equal.

    But fine, if I get to be Literally Hitler, then I don’t mind calling myself a liberal.

  179. @Rational


    HBD IN MOON LANDINGS: ISRAELI MOON ATTEMPT CRASHES, BUT CHINESE SURVIVED?

    Talking about HBD, I am surprised that this big news is not being discussed much.

    The Judaists claim that “we are all the same”, call race a social construct, support BLM, but then claim THEY are the smartest people on earth.

    Their Jewish media constantly pumps HBD King, Einstein, as being the smartest man on earth, even though he was a plagiarist.

    Jordan Peterson, an HBD expert, says Judaists are super rich not because they are super crooked, but because they are super smart, compared to super stupid whites.

    But the stupid whites allegedly sent a MAN on the moon, in the 60’s (wink, wink) , and the Chinese sent a rover to the moon in 2019, that sent photos for a few hours and then has not been heard from, but the Israeli beresheet crashed, and did not even land on the moon, despite probably being built with technology stolen from the Americans.

    https://www.space.com/beresheet-moon-crash-engine-glitch.html

    Can you ban rational’s incoherent rantings from this blog? He’s far worse than gerard2 could ever be.

    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
    I unbanned Gerard2.
  180. @reiner Tor

    Is anyone going to be willing to die for HBD?
     
    No. Just like no one is going to be willing to die for quantum mechanics or astronomy. That’s a strong argument that, should the media demand that they do it, anti-immigration parties should be running on a geocentric worldview platform.

    HBD is both intellectual and non-inspirational.
     
    Same thing as quantum physics and astronomy. A very strong argument in favor of accepting the geocentric worldview, should the media declare that modern astronomy was literally Nazi.

    Look, HBD is not an ideology or a political platform or anything like that. It’s just part of reality, a scientific truth currently suppressed by our enemies. Is there a single reason to follow the taboos of our enemies, when it clearly leads to no extra political support?

    Look, HBD is not an ideology or a political platform or anything like that. It’s just part of reality, a scientific truth currently suppressed by our enemies.

    But the problem is that HBD is an ideology. Most “science” today is more ideology than science (climate science for instance is pure ideology).

    Science is political. I think that’s a bad thing, but the reality is that science has been thoroughly and hopelessly politicised since WW2.

    Can you honestly and sincerely say that supporters of HBD do not have a political agenda?

    • Replies: @reiner Tor

    Can you honestly and sincerely say that supporters of HBD do not have a political agenda?
     
    Greg Cochran and Greg Johnson and Steve Pinker and Kevin B. MacDonald: these four are all supporters of HBD (Pinker is to an extent in hiding), but they don't see eye to eye on many (in the case of Pinker most) political issues.

    Supporters of HBD do have political agendas, but they don't each support the same agenda. You wrote that it's compatible with socialism or high IQ immigrationism etc., and it's true, but most supporters of HBD aren't socialists (to the contrary...), and many (at least two, possibly three and maybe all four in the above example) don't agree with high IQ immigration, because, you know, it's easy to understand the ramifications of importing a high IQ but disloyal (or even outright hostile) elite.

    climate science for instance is pure ideology
     
    Even that is untrue. Many people opposed to globohomo accept its conclusions, and of course there are data which seem to support it. It's maybe not as surefire as its proponents like to claim, and it might turn out to be similar to how red meat was made the #1 cause of heart disease, but it's pretty obvious that climate is warming pretty fast (almost unprecedented), and that it coincides with industrialization. It may or may not be caused by humans, but the case is at least not as weak as people will claim for ideological reasons.

    There are ideological climate scientists (maybe even the majority), but I guess you understand that for example one implication of anthropogenic climate change is that it's opposed to mass migration of peoples and supports strict population control in Africa. That is what Kevin B. MacDonald or Greg Johnson seem to draw as their conclusions from climate science.
  181. @songbird

    3 billion divided by 8.7 million is obviously less than 1,000.
     
    Presumably, it circulates - changing hands multiple times in a year, so that it accounts for substantially more of the per capita. But, who knows, maybe they only use it to buy foreign-made military equipment. Of course, there are other subsidies of that nature. But, if so, it would still add to the per capita by allowing them to spend money more freely.

    There's something rather unseemly about AIPAC and its like. You would think of it was unnecessary, then they would care about the optics of it. But perhaps that is more about political psychology.

    I would say they do as least as well as Portugal on their own, and probably better, meaning they should get off welfare. If it is not good for the individual or group, then it is not good for the nation.

    In an expensive skyscraper area of Tel Aviv, I saw a lot of what I think are very rich American and Canadian Jewish kids.

    It’s obviously many young women (from LA or New York?), with sunglasses, talking English loudly while walking a dog, all located near the new residential properties in the city. Their whole manner and style is completely different to the local population.

    So this is an example of how money from America, was previously boosting the Israeli economy, through children of American millionaires buying property in the skyscrapers there, and then living a lazy life of sponsoring the restaurants and cafes near their skyscraper.

    (It’s like an inverse version of the children of richer Russians, including officials, buying property in London and Miami)

    However, Israel stupidly, destroyed this flow by adding taxes against foreign buyers of real estate – a perfect example of how populist government policy can damage your economy.

    Around 5% of Israeli property is owned by foreign residents. This might not sound like a lot, but if you reckon that many of the foreigners buying here are purchasing at the higher end of the market, it’s easy to see that this involves billions of dollars’ worth of property.

    But in the last few years the drop in sales to foreigners has been precipitous and is close to the collapse of the market that took place when Israel was wracked by terrorist attacks in 2003.

    (…)

    But some of this collapse is government-driven. The message that the government is sending out to foreign buyers is: The good days are over.

    And how do governments send out their messages?

    By differential taxation.

    A foreign resident no longer benefits from the lower tax brackets, which now apply only to Israeli residents.

    (…)

    Until the change in the law, a foreign resident buying in Israel was equal to the Israeli. But since the amendment to the real-estate tax law, only Israeli residents have the right to pay a lower acquisition tax upon purchase. A foreign resident has no such exemption…

    But today, a foreign resident who wants to sell his property and benefit from the exemption must prove that his apartment in Israel serves as his personal residence and is his sole apartment in the country. Added to that is a new draconian requirement: The foreign resident must prove he does not have an apartment in the country of his domicile!

    This means that foreign residents buying a second home in Israel have no exemption from the heavy capital-gains tax.

    https://www.jpost.com/Israel-News/Foreign-buyers-of-Israeli-properties-Are-the-good-times-over-549505

    • Replies: @songbird
    I guess they are probably worried about rent becoming too high and maybe hurting TFR. I could see it as being a problem by the coast.

    I wonder who these "foreign residents" are, if that would include dual citizens or not. I had thought it was easy to obtain Israeli citizenship.
  182. @anonymous

    Actually, HBD has very little to say about some of those things, like capitalism or atheism. Again, it’s just a part of the description of reality, a field of scientific study currently suppressed. So why would it have anything to say about the existence of God? It’s certainly compatible with both belief in God and religion and the lack of it.

    But, obviously, it makes feminism, transgenderism, most of LGBT ideology, blank slatism, and a number of similar beliefs untenable.
     
    And HBDIQ makes nationalism untenable in the same way. Why should high IQ chosen people feel any "solidarity" with low IQ moron masses just because they belong to the same "nation"?

    Face it, HBDIQ ideology is self defeating in principle. The high IQ elite already believes in their superiority over (white) moron masses.

    https://twitter.com/the_moviebob/status/1116181820935217152


    Their only differences with HBDIQ dogma are that they attribute their high IQ and success to their hard work, not to genes, and the failure of the non white moron masses is due to their oppression by white racists. The failure of white moron masses is due to their laziness and immorality and is well deserved.

    Now, let assume that HBDIQ evangelists succeed and persuade the high IQ elite that the non white morons are as hopeless and worthless as the white morons, and they, the high IQ elite, were born to be master race. What will happen?

    Face it, HBDIQ ideology is self defeating in principle. The high IQ elite already believes in their superiority over (white) moron masses.

    Yes. The HBD/IQ ideology does appear to be something that will encourage globalism, since as you say globalism is based on the idea that elites should rule over the inferior masses.

    HBD/IQ ideology also makes the very idea of democracy untenable. Now personally I have no great love for democracy but I’m not sure that most HBDers have accepted that a logical consequence of their belief in HBD and IQ must be a rejection of democracy. If you accept HBD then the ideal world will be Huxley’s Brave New World. A world divided rigidly into castes.

    But HBDers are not interested in the many actual consequences of their own belief system – they just want a “scientific” justification for their desire to rid their nations of what they see as inferior races.

    The problem is that if you actually want to stop immigration and halt the insane drive towards ever-increasing diversity then espousing HBD is probably the strategy least likely to succeed.

    • Replies: @Archimedes
    It will be interesting to see which ideology ultimately prevails. It comes down to a contest of quality vs quantity.

    In the future when the masses have a lower IQ, but the minority pockets have higher IQ, how many low IQ people will be equivalent to one high IQ person. Will a country like Japan/China with 1/10th of the population for example, be able to rule over a country 10 times their size, in theory.

    This is the million dollar question. How much quantity do you need to over-run a society that is very high quality, assuming that said society does have an Air-Tight border.

    Just because HBD will never go main-stream, does not mean it may not win in the end. Sometimes you lose the battle but win the war.

    , @reiner Tor

    If you accept HBD then the ideal world will be Huxley’s Brave New World.
     
    No, because it's obvious that such a society is hell, especially in the absence of the easy methods to control the population invented in the book (like soma). Actually existing drugs create hellholes of the places where people use them. It's not very hard to understand. So in the absence of soma, ethnostates are more desirable even for the elite.

    HBD also leads to the understanding that elites' short term desires (very low taxes, very high immigration to depress wages) need to be curtailed for their own good: if the UK becomes Pakistan or rather like Lebanon, it will be hell for the elite as well. There's a reason why even Pakistani billionaires prefer to spend their time at Swiss ski resorts or elite London neighborhoods rather than in Pakistan.

    I think there is also a reason why HBD is suppressed by the globohomo elites (because its conclusions contradict globohomo), and why most HBD supporters are opposed to globohomo (ditto). Globohomo is a religion which contradicts HBD science. (Yes, some of the claims of HBD bloggers and scholars might be stupid. Maybe Nepal or Vietnam are way smarter than is assumed by them. Not very relevant to the big picture.)

    , @reiner Tor
    Another unrealistic feature in Brave New World is that there is no (or very little) variation within the classes: in reality, the smartest Betas would always be smarter than the average Alpha (and since they are more numerous, it'd also be possible for the smartest Beta to be actually smarter than even the very smartest Alphas), so you would have a major problem with this.

    In reality, even the smartest blacks are smarter than the average Jew or Episcopalian, despite blacks being at or very close to the bottom of the ladder. So it'd be very difficult to create such a society.

    A better HBD conscious solution would be separation: separate white and black ethnostates. Which is, coincidentally, the position of most HBD supporters.
  183. @dfordoom

    Face it, HBDIQ ideology is self defeating in principle. The high IQ elite already believes in their superiority over (white) moron masses.
     
    Yes. The HBD/IQ ideology does appear to be something that will encourage globalism, since as you say globalism is based on the idea that elites should rule over the inferior masses.

    HBD/IQ ideology also makes the very idea of democracy untenable. Now personally I have no great love for democracy but I'm not sure that most HBDers have accepted that a logical consequence of their belief in HBD and IQ must be a rejection of democracy. If you accept HBD then the ideal world will be Huxley's Brave New World. A world divided rigidly into castes.

    But HBDers are not interested in the many actual consequences of their own belief system - they just want a "scientific" justification for their desire to rid their nations of what they see as inferior races.

    The problem is that if you actually want to stop immigration and halt the insane drive towards ever-increasing diversity then espousing HBD is probably the strategy least likely to succeed.

    It will be interesting to see which ideology ultimately prevails. It comes down to a contest of quality vs quantity.

    In the future when the masses have a lower IQ, but the minority pockets have higher IQ, how many low IQ people will be equivalent to one high IQ person. Will a country like Japan/China with 1/10th of the population for example, be able to rule over a country 10 times their size, in theory.

    This is the million dollar question. How much quantity do you need to over-run a society that is very high quality, assuming that said society does have an Air-Tight border.

    Just because HBD will never go main-stream, does not mean it may not win in the end. Sometimes you lose the battle but win the war.

  184. @Anonymous
    Finns in general have a reputation for being autistic. I don't know if it's true or not, but that's the stereotype. So what works in Finland might not translate elsewhere.

    Finland gave the world Linus Torvalds, without whom over half (conservatively) of the world’s server architectures would not be functioning as efficiently as they are.

    So praise Allah for the autistic Finns!

  185. @Anonymous
    When I think of a version of "social conservatism" I would support, I don't think of Afghanistan or Saudi Arabia. I suspect almost everybody on this blog would agree.

    The "conservative" values I would support would be basically pro-family, pro-natal and mildly eugenic. The highest ideal is to get married, stay married, be a loyal spouse and a good parent. The state should use incentives to support young responsible people in forming families, "free markets" be damned. As far as whether people have sex before their wedding night or whether Mom wears a bikini when the family goes to the beach, I really don't care at all (does anybody?).

    We are already seeing a lot of backlash against liberal norms in the sexual sphere: for example, the #MeToo movement I see as basically reactionary, though of course they would resent that label. The problem is that, instead of a return to the traditional norms, we are pushed into a sort of bizarro Puritanism where we're supposed to gladly accept obviously repulsive things (children taking sex hormones to "become" the opposite gender) while being appalled by the seemingly mundane (drunken college hook-ups are "rape," mild flirting is "sexual harassment"). Another example of growing anti-liberalism would be the backlash against free speech/freedom of expression, although again it's always an excuse to humiliate white middle-class heterosexuals and to make them feel bad about themselves.

    The current wisdom in the West--at least from my vantage point in the US--is that one's highest aspiration should be a "good career," and following from that a life of tasteful consumerism. Family is an afterthought, something you work in between your vacations and your ascent up the corporate ladder at some wanky multinational corporation. Patriotism is déclassé. That is the mentality we need to undo via "social conservatism," and to do so we will necessarily need to do battle with not only many feminists but also many capitalists, internationalists, and utopian universalist types. We can oppose this sort of constrained hedonism without advocating White Sharia; a middle ground is possible.

    When I think of a version of “social conservatism” I would support, I don’t think of Afghanistan or Saudi Arabia. I suspect almost everybody on this blog would agree.

    Yeah. When most of us think of “social conservatism” we’re thinking of the West in the 1950s, not Saudi Arabia.

    It’s also important to note that the true value of social conservatism is as a means to an end. The end is a society that doesn’t try to destroy itself.

    Social conservatism means firstly self-control. Unlimited sexual freedom might sound like fun but it’s catastrophically socially destructive.

    Secondly social conservatism means thinking long-term rather than short-term – thinking in terms of long-term contentment rather than short-term pleasure.

    Thirdly it means recognising that traditional sex roles lead to happiness and contentment, and to well-adjusted children.

    Fourthly it means recognising that family is more important than money or status.

    Social conservatism is necessary because it’s the only way to achieve a stable society and a society with a chance of not self-destructing. It has nothing to do with religion. I’m a social conservative but I’m certainly no Christian. I’m a social conservative on purely pragmatic grounds.

  186. @songbird

    3 billion divided by 8.7 million is obviously less than 1,000.
     
    Presumably, it circulates - changing hands multiple times in a year, so that it accounts for substantially more of the per capita. But, who knows, maybe they only use it to buy foreign-made military equipment. Of course, there are other subsidies of that nature. But, if so, it would still add to the per capita by allowing them to spend money more freely.

    There's something rather unseemly about AIPAC and its like. You would think of it was unnecessary, then they would care about the optics of it. But perhaps that is more about political psychology.

    I would say they do as least as well as Portugal on their own, and probably better, meaning they should get off welfare. If it is not good for the individual or group, then it is not good for the nation.

    The first rule of debating hasbara agents is never believe what they say.

    The second rule of debating hasbara agents is never believe what they say.

    The third rule of debating hasbara agents is never believe what they say.

    The numbers are larger because they receive US government guarantees for some of their bonds. These are often provided during recessions and allow Israel to spend their way out of the recession. The interest on these is very low, which works like a direct subsidy to Israel. As a result, the Israeli military industry is rarely plagued by the cancellations, slowdowns and restarts like we can see with the military programs of even much larger countries like Russia. Just compare Israeli military programs going on for decades without interruption with the PAK FA program, which is basically on hold now. I need not explain the difference in business climate or the profitability and viability of a domestic defense industry compared to any other country.

    Part of the military aid can be spent on domestically procured items – a truly unique way to give military aid, which is normally spent on the equipment produced by the aid-giver’s defense industry.

    Israel receives technologies, which even countries legally allied to the US don’t receive.

    The US sometimes funded or participated in joint development programs for weapons systems which it didn’t need at the time.

    I’m sometimes a bit skeptical about the success of Israeli firms in selling to the US military: while I don’t think these are low quality products, I’d think that the domestic American military industry would also be able to develop those, for a little extra funding, and if the foreign source would be another country, they’d proceed to provide the funding.

    But even if you take the numbers provided by the hasbara agents at face value: $3 billion is almost 1% of Israeli GDP, which is a fifth of their military budget, and probably at least half of their procurements. Another way of looking at it is that usually countries need brutal austerity packages to reduce the deficit by 2-3% of GDP, so that the cutting of Israeli aid (even without loan guarantees etc.) would require a moderately sized austerity package to offset.

    • Replies: @songbird
    Some of what the US provides is probably priceless. For instance, there is the new world order, where the US attacks Saddam's forces, when he invades Kuwait - despite not really having any direct national interest in the area.

    I don't think we really have a true accounting of it all, and this is the case with many other lobbies - foreign aid and affirmative action. The latter must cost the US at least a couple percent of it's GDP. There was a study about 30 years ago that found that outcome, it must have increased substantially, since then.
  187. @dfordoom

    Look, HBD is not an ideology or a political platform or anything like that. It’s just part of reality, a scientific truth currently suppressed by our enemies.
     
    But the problem is that HBD is an ideology. Most "science" today is more ideology than science (climate science for instance is pure ideology).

    Science is political. I think that's a bad thing, but the reality is that science has been thoroughly and hopelessly politicised since WW2.

    Can you honestly and sincerely say that supporters of HBD do not have a political agenda?

    Can you honestly and sincerely say that supporters of HBD do not have a political agenda?

    Greg Cochran and Greg Johnson and Steve Pinker and Kevin B. MacDonald: these four are all supporters of HBD (Pinker is to an extent in hiding), but they don’t see eye to eye on many (in the case of Pinker most) political issues.

    Supporters of HBD do have political agendas, but they don’t each support the same agenda. You wrote that it’s compatible with socialism or high IQ immigrationism etc., and it’s true, but most supporters of HBD aren’t socialists (to the contrary…), and many (at least two, possibly three and maybe all four in the above example) don’t agree with high IQ immigration, because, you know, it’s easy to understand the ramifications of importing a high IQ but disloyal (or even outright hostile) elite.

    climate science for instance is pure ideology

    Even that is untrue. Many people opposed to globohomo accept its conclusions, and of course there are data which seem to support it. It’s maybe not as surefire as its proponents like to claim, and it might turn out to be similar to how red meat was made the #1 cause of heart disease, but it’s pretty obvious that climate is warming pretty fast (almost unprecedented), and that it coincides with industrialization. It may or may not be caused by humans, but the case is at least not as weak as people will claim for ideological reasons.

    There are ideological climate scientists (maybe even the majority), but I guess you understand that for example one implication of anthropogenic climate change is that it’s opposed to mass migration of peoples and supports strict population control in Africa. That is what Kevin B. MacDonald or Greg Johnson seem to draw as their conclusions from climate science.

  188. @dfordoom

    Face it, HBDIQ ideology is self defeating in principle. The high IQ elite already believes in their superiority over (white) moron masses.
     
    Yes. The HBD/IQ ideology does appear to be something that will encourage globalism, since as you say globalism is based on the idea that elites should rule over the inferior masses.

    HBD/IQ ideology also makes the very idea of democracy untenable. Now personally I have no great love for democracy but I'm not sure that most HBDers have accepted that a logical consequence of their belief in HBD and IQ must be a rejection of democracy. If you accept HBD then the ideal world will be Huxley's Brave New World. A world divided rigidly into castes.

    But HBDers are not interested in the many actual consequences of their own belief system - they just want a "scientific" justification for their desire to rid their nations of what they see as inferior races.

    The problem is that if you actually want to stop immigration and halt the insane drive towards ever-increasing diversity then espousing HBD is probably the strategy least likely to succeed.

    If you accept HBD then the ideal world will be Huxley’s Brave New World.

    No, because it’s obvious that such a society is hell, especially in the absence of the easy methods to control the population invented in the book (like soma). Actually existing drugs create hellholes of the places where people use them. It’s not very hard to understand. So in the absence of soma, ethnostates are more desirable even for the elite.

    HBD also leads to the understanding that elites’ short term desires (very low taxes, very high immigration to depress wages) need to be curtailed for their own good: if the UK becomes Pakistan or rather like Lebanon, it will be hell for the elite as well. There’s a reason why even Pakistani billionaires prefer to spend their time at Swiss ski resorts or elite London neighborhoods rather than in Pakistan.

    I think there is also a reason why HBD is suppressed by the globohomo elites (because its conclusions contradict globohomo), and why most HBD supporters are opposed to globohomo (ditto). Globohomo is a religion which contradicts HBD science. (Yes, some of the claims of HBD bloggers and scholars might be stupid. Maybe Nepal or Vietnam are way smarter than is assumed by them. Not very relevant to the big picture.)

  189. @dfordoom

    Face it, HBDIQ ideology is self defeating in principle. The high IQ elite already believes in their superiority over (white) moron masses.
     
    Yes. The HBD/IQ ideology does appear to be something that will encourage globalism, since as you say globalism is based on the idea that elites should rule over the inferior masses.

    HBD/IQ ideology also makes the very idea of democracy untenable. Now personally I have no great love for democracy but I'm not sure that most HBDers have accepted that a logical consequence of their belief in HBD and IQ must be a rejection of democracy. If you accept HBD then the ideal world will be Huxley's Brave New World. A world divided rigidly into castes.

    But HBDers are not interested in the many actual consequences of their own belief system - they just want a "scientific" justification for their desire to rid their nations of what they see as inferior races.

    The problem is that if you actually want to stop immigration and halt the insane drive towards ever-increasing diversity then espousing HBD is probably the strategy least likely to succeed.

    Another unrealistic feature in Brave New World is that there is no (or very little) variation within the classes: in reality, the smartest Betas would always be smarter than the average Alpha (and since they are more numerous, it’d also be possible for the smartest Beta to be actually smarter than even the very smartest Alphas), so you would have a major problem with this.

    In reality, even the smartest blacks are smarter than the average Jew or Episcopalian, despite blacks being at or very close to the bottom of the ladder. So it’d be very difficult to create such a society.

    A better HBD conscious solution would be separation: separate white and black ethnostates. Which is, coincidentally, the position of most HBD supporters.

  190. @Archimedes
    I have been thinking a lot about this recently. I am a pretty big racial purist, but I always "Kick the Tires" from time to time. You have to play devil's advocate some times.

    Take the example of Islam vs a country like Brazil. Brazil is a pretty heavily race mixed country. It's lower IQ and it's really corrupt. But it would be a lot harder for Islamists to break a country like Brazil than a country like Sweden, France, or UK. When you give up something: IQ you get something back like defense against invaders.

    The microcosm even exists inside Europe. We know the more Slavic/Asia ad mixes like Italy, Greece, Poland, Hungary, etc are resistant to mass migration, while at the same time being lower IQ. So you are correct, there is something to diversity being a strength.

    Race mixing may in fact be necessary at some point.

    Brazil will become Evangelical, which isn’t meaningfully different from Muslim except for not having a “foreign” tag (nevermind that Protestantism *is* foreign to Brazil).

    • Replies: @anonymous
    Exactly. The fears of alt-right that America will become "Brazilianized" are ludicrous. Is is the other way around - Brazil became Americanized. Old Brazil is gone and what is left is tropical knockoff of US of A.
    You all complain about the "globohomo" left wing memeplex that spreads from America all over the world like wildfire.
    But the right-wing American memeplex - Evangelicalism, Pentecostalism, Christian Zionism, Creationism, NRA gunnuttery - is as well succesful and exportable.

    https://www.timesofisrael.com/millions-of-brazilians-hail-israel-during-march-for-jesus/

    This is the future of the world - Rainbow Gay parade and Jesus Israel parade facing each other and stomping on your face on all eternity.

    And if you think the based Muslim world is immune - think again.

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-syria-islamic-state-christians/christianity-grows-in-syrian-town-once-besieged-by-islamic-state-idUSKCN1RS19N
  191. anonymous[113] • Disclaimer says:
    @Silva
    Brazil will become Evangelical, which isn't meaningfully different from Muslim except for not having a "foreign" tag (nevermind that Protestantism *is* foreign to Brazil).

    Exactly. The fears of alt-right that America will become “Brazilianized” are ludicrous. Is is the other way around – Brazil became Americanized. Old Brazil is gone and what is left is tropical knockoff of US of A.
    You all complain about the “globohomo” left wing memeplex that spreads from America all over the world like wildfire.
    But the right-wing American memeplex – Evangelicalism, Pentecostalism, Christian Zionism, Creationism, NRA gunnuttery – is as well succesful and exportable.

    https://www.timesofisrael.com/millions-of-brazilians-hail-israel-during-march-for-jesus/

    This is the future of the world – Rainbow Gay parade and Jesus Israel parade facing each other and stomping on your face on all eternity.

    And if you think the based Muslim world is immune – think again.

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-syria-islamic-state-christians/christianity-grows-in-syrian-town-once-besieged-by-islamic-state-idUSKCN1RS19N

    • LOL: Anatoly Karlin
    • Replies: @Archimedes
    I'd like to add this interesting post from UNZ to our discussion. It talks about the Pros and Cons to multi-racial people.

    Pros: Possible Higher IQ, Healthier, Better Looking, Taller

    Cons: Lower Mental Health, Aggression, Short-Term Thinking, Early Death

    http://www.unz.com/article/mixed-race-people-taller-more-intelligent-better-looking-but-also-crazy/
  192. @anonymous
    Exactly. The fears of alt-right that America will become "Brazilianized" are ludicrous. Is is the other way around - Brazil became Americanized. Old Brazil is gone and what is left is tropical knockoff of US of A.
    You all complain about the "globohomo" left wing memeplex that spreads from America all over the world like wildfire.
    But the right-wing American memeplex - Evangelicalism, Pentecostalism, Christian Zionism, Creationism, NRA gunnuttery - is as well succesful and exportable.

    https://www.timesofisrael.com/millions-of-brazilians-hail-israel-during-march-for-jesus/

    This is the future of the world - Rainbow Gay parade and Jesus Israel parade facing each other and stomping on your face on all eternity.

    And if you think the based Muslim world is immune - think again.

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-syria-islamic-state-christians/christianity-grows-in-syrian-town-once-besieged-by-islamic-state-idUSKCN1RS19N

    I’d like to add this interesting post from UNZ to our discussion. It talks about the Pros and Cons to multi-racial people.

    Pros: Possible Higher IQ, Healthier, Better Looking, Taller

    Cons: Lower Mental Health, Aggression, Short-Term Thinking, Early Death

    http://www.unz.com/article/mixed-race-people-taller-more-intelligent-better-looking-but-also-crazy/

  193. @Yevardian
    Can you ban rational's incoherent rantings from this blog? He's far worse than gerard2 could ever be.

    I unbanned Gerard2.

  194. @Dmitry
    In an expensive skyscraper area of Tel Aviv, I saw a lot of what I think are very rich American and Canadian Jewish kids.

    It's obviously many young women (from LA or New York?), with sunglasses, talking English loudly while walking a dog, all located near the new residential properties in the city. Their whole manner and style is completely different to the local population.

    So this is an example of how money from America, was previously boosting the Israeli economy, through children of American millionaires buying property in the skyscrapers there, and then living a lazy life of sponsoring the restaurants and cafes near their skyscraper.

    (It's like an inverse version of the children of richer Russians, including officials, buying property in London and Miami)

    However, Israel stupidly, destroyed this flow by adding taxes against foreign buyers of real estate - a perfect example of how populist government policy can damage your economy.


    Around 5% of Israeli property is owned by foreign residents. This might not sound like a lot, but if you reckon that many of the foreigners buying here are purchasing at the higher end of the market, it’s easy to see that this involves billions of dollars’ worth of property.

    But in the last few years the drop in sales to foreigners has been precipitous and is close to the collapse of the market that took place when Israel was wracked by terrorist attacks in 2003.

    (...)

    But some of this collapse is government-driven. The message that the government is sending out to foreign buyers is: The good days are over.

    And how do governments send out their messages?

    By differential taxation.

    A foreign resident no longer benefits from the lower tax brackets, which now apply only to Israeli residents.

    (...)

    Until the change in the law, a foreign resident buying in Israel was equal to the Israeli. But since the amendment to the real-estate tax law, only Israeli residents have the right to pay a lower acquisition tax upon purchase. A foreign resident has no such exemption...

    But today, a foreign resident who wants to sell his property and benefit from the exemption must prove that his apartment in Israel serves as his personal residence and is his sole apartment in the country. Added to that is a new draconian requirement: The foreign resident must prove he does not have an apartment in the country of his domicile!

    This means that foreign residents buying a second home in Israel have no exemption from the heavy capital-gains tax.

     

    https://www.jpost.com/Israel-News/Foreign-buyers-of-Israeli-properties-Are-the-good-times-over-549505

    I guess they are probably worried about rent becoming too high and maybe hurting TFR. I could see it as being a problem by the coast.

    I wonder who these “foreign residents” are, if that would include dual citizens or not. I had thought it was easy to obtain Israeli citizenship.

    • Replies: @Dmitry

    thought it was easy to obtain Israeli citizenship.
     
    I planned to get the Israeli passport. Not nearly as good as an EU passport, but more useful than the Russian. At least you have visa-free with UK and EU, without paying a lot of money and submitting biometric data.

    However, there are some difficulties. Even when you can prove a right to repatriation, you can register to be a citizen in Israel, in a couple of months. But they will only give you passport, after you live in Israel for a year (with some short vacations outside allowed). If you're too young you'll be conscripted to the army in that time (although they have apparently lowered the age recently, so they at least don't force conscript immigrants in their mid-20 years as before).

    So I'm not sure you would classify it as the easiest passport to attain even for people with a legal right to apply. It's probably in a "low-medium difficulty" category, easier than American passport, but more difficult than the Italian one (Italy sends a passport to anyone with an ancestor that ever came from Italy, even if you have not lived in Italy).


    I guess they are probably worried about rent becoming too high and maybe hurting TFR. I could see it as being a problem by the coast.

     

    This seems to be the justification for this populist policy, where they said they will reduce apartment prices, by stopping foreigners purchasing property in Israel.

    But in reality, it does not work like this. The demand of foreigners, is what provides the financial rationale for constructing a lot of new housing. By disincentiving their purchase of property by foreigners, you are reducing the supply of new housing, especially of higher quality projects.

    Today, you would be an idiot to buy property in Israel (as you would be to buy property in France). At the same time, Israel are idiots, because they scare away the foreign investment.

    If you look at Cyprus by comparison, because of their tax policy, most Russian investors want to buy property there.

    Israel should have followed the same policies as Cyprus, and they would have attracted a lot of investors away from Cyprus. Instead Israel, has a redneck attitude to foreign investment and as a result the supply of property itself will be less.

  195. @reiner Tor
    The first rule of debating hasbara agents is never believe what they say.

    The second rule of debating hasbara agents is never believe what they say.

    The third rule of debating hasbara agents is never believe what they say.

    The numbers are larger because they receive US government guarantees for some of their bonds. These are often provided during recessions and allow Israel to spend their way out of the recession. The interest on these is very low, which works like a direct subsidy to Israel. As a result, the Israeli military industry is rarely plagued by the cancellations, slowdowns and restarts like we can see with the military programs of even much larger countries like Russia. Just compare Israeli military programs going on for decades without interruption with the PAK FA program, which is basically on hold now. I need not explain the difference in business climate or the profitability and viability of a domestic defense industry compared to any other country.

    Part of the military aid can be spent on domestically procured items - a truly unique way to give military aid, which is normally spent on the equipment produced by the aid-giver’s defense industry.

    Israel receives technologies, which even countries legally allied to the US don’t receive.

    The US sometimes funded or participated in joint development programs for weapons systems which it didn’t need at the time.

    I’m sometimes a bit skeptical about the success of Israeli firms in selling to the US military: while I don’t think these are low quality products, I’d think that the domestic American military industry would also be able to develop those, for a little extra funding, and if the foreign source would be another country, they’d proceed to provide the funding.

    But even if you take the numbers provided by the hasbara agents at face value: $3 billion is almost 1% of Israeli GDP, which is a fifth of their military budget, and probably at least half of their procurements. Another way of looking at it is that usually countries need brutal austerity packages to reduce the deficit by 2-3% of GDP, so that the cutting of Israeli aid (even without loan guarantees etc.) would require a moderately sized austerity package to offset.

    Some of what the US provides is probably priceless. For instance, there is the new world order, where the US attacks Saddam’s forces, when he invades Kuwait – despite not really having any direct national interest in the area.

    I don’t think we really have a true accounting of it all, and this is the case with many other lobbies – foreign aid and affirmative action. The latter must cost the US at least a couple percent of it’s GDP. There was a study about 30 years ago that found that outcome, it must have increased substantially, since then.

  196. @Sean
    They don't call it Finlandisation for nothing.

    Finlandiistanisation would be more correct.

  197. That is a very strange statement from thee, Anatoly, considering how much you have written on HBD.

    • Replies: @notanon
    he's quoting someone who's wrong
  198. @Che Guava
    That is a very strange statement from thee, Anatoly, considering how much you have written on HBD.

    he’s quoting someone who’s wrong

    • Replies: @Che Guava
    I am tired, but think I have the idea.

    Thanks.
  199. @notanon
    he's quoting someone who's wrong

    I am tired, but think I have the idea.

    Thanks.

  200. @songbird
    I guess they are probably worried about rent becoming too high and maybe hurting TFR. I could see it as being a problem by the coast.

    I wonder who these "foreign residents" are, if that would include dual citizens or not. I had thought it was easy to obtain Israeli citizenship.

    thought it was easy to obtain Israeli citizenship.

    I planned to get the Israeli passport. Not nearly as good as an EU passport, but more useful than the Russian. At least you have visa-free with UK and EU, without paying a lot of money and submitting biometric data.

    However, there are some difficulties. Even when you can prove a right to repatriation, you can register to be a citizen in Israel, in a couple of months. But they will only give you passport, after you live in Israel for a year (with some short vacations outside allowed). If you’re too young you’ll be conscripted to the army in that time (although they have apparently lowered the age recently, so they at least don’t force conscript immigrants in their mid-20 years as before).

    So I’m not sure you would classify it as the easiest passport to attain even for people with a legal right to apply. It’s probably in a “low-medium difficulty” category, easier than American passport, but more difficult than the Italian one (Italy sends a passport to anyone with an ancestor that ever came from Italy, even if you have not lived in Italy).

    I guess they are probably worried about rent becoming too high and maybe hurting TFR. I could see it as being a problem by the coast.

    This seems to be the justification for this populist policy, where they said they will reduce apartment prices, by stopping foreigners purchasing property in Israel.

    But in reality, it does not work like this. The demand of foreigners, is what provides the financial rationale for constructing a lot of new housing. By disincentiving their purchase of property by foreigners, you are reducing the supply of new housing, especially of higher quality projects.

    Today, you would be an idiot to buy property in Israel (as you would be to buy property in France). At the same time, Israel are idiots, because they scare away the foreign investment.

    If you look at Cyprus by comparison, because of their tax policy, most Russian investors want to buy property there.

    Israel should have followed the same policies as Cyprus, and they would have attracted a lot of investors away from Cyprus. Instead Israel, has a redneck attitude to foreign investment and as a result the supply of property itself will be less.

    • Replies: @songbird
    That is something I hadn't considered - the draft. I had thought about dual taxation, but don't know their policies. Perhaps, it would be a problem for the super-rich.

    Where I live, I would say immigration has substantially increased the cost of housing. Many confounding factors such as white flight and zoning, but for houses, there are definitely space and distance limitations - essentially a fixed supply. I don't know about urban apartments and foreign ownership. Israeli zoning laws are something I have no concept of. Maybe, they are more friendly for developers.
  201. @Dmitry

    thought it was easy to obtain Israeli citizenship.
     
    I planned to get the Israeli passport. Not nearly as good as an EU passport, but more useful than the Russian. At least you have visa-free with UK and EU, without paying a lot of money and submitting biometric data.

    However, there are some difficulties. Even when you can prove a right to repatriation, you can register to be a citizen in Israel, in a couple of months. But they will only give you passport, after you live in Israel for a year (with some short vacations outside allowed). If you're too young you'll be conscripted to the army in that time (although they have apparently lowered the age recently, so they at least don't force conscript immigrants in their mid-20 years as before).

    So I'm not sure you would classify it as the easiest passport to attain even for people with a legal right to apply. It's probably in a "low-medium difficulty" category, easier than American passport, but more difficult than the Italian one (Italy sends a passport to anyone with an ancestor that ever came from Italy, even if you have not lived in Italy).


    I guess they are probably worried about rent becoming too high and maybe hurting TFR. I could see it as being a problem by the coast.

     

    This seems to be the justification for this populist policy, where they said they will reduce apartment prices, by stopping foreigners purchasing property in Israel.

    But in reality, it does not work like this. The demand of foreigners, is what provides the financial rationale for constructing a lot of new housing. By disincentiving their purchase of property by foreigners, you are reducing the supply of new housing, especially of higher quality projects.

    Today, you would be an idiot to buy property in Israel (as you would be to buy property in France). At the same time, Israel are idiots, because they scare away the foreign investment.

    If you look at Cyprus by comparison, because of their tax policy, most Russian investors want to buy property there.

    Israel should have followed the same policies as Cyprus, and they would have attracted a lot of investors away from Cyprus. Instead Israel, has a redneck attitude to foreign investment and as a result the supply of property itself will be less.

    That is something I hadn’t considered – the draft. I had thought about dual taxation, but don’t know their policies. Perhaps, it would be a problem for the super-rich.

    Where I live, I would say immigration has substantially increased the cost of housing. Many confounding factors such as white flight and zoning, but for houses, there are definitely space and distance limitations – essentially a fixed supply. I don’t know about urban apartments and foreign ownership. Israeli zoning laws are something I have no concept of. Maybe, they are more friendly for developers.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    In Cyprus, anyone who buys $2 million of property in the island, is automatically given Cyprus citizenship.

    As a result, 50,000 Russians moved to Cyprus (mostly not living there permanently, but just buy enough property that they could attain citizenship of Cyprus).

    This transforms Cyprus' economy, and now creates a large proportion of the country's GDP.

    In addition, this results in construction of higher quality property and a boom to cities like Limassol. A lot of the houses are empty in most of the year, but some Russians live there permanently and go to school in Cyprus.

    There is also an issue of conscription in Cyprus for men, but the service is extremely mild and not something people care about escaping (unlike Israel, where the army is very difficult, and the soldiers are not paid, and often fall into poverty). I actually met someone who was in the Cyprus army and he didn't say anything about it.


    That is something I hadn’t considered – the draft. I had thought about dual taxation, but don’t know their policies. Perhaps, it would be a problem for the super-rich.

     

    It's a problem for normal people, because they'd added multiple different taxes, including special extra taxes for people who buy more than one property or rent the property.

    Israel could be even worse than France now (which is where a lot of foreigners had to sell property they had bought earlier).


    Where I live, I would say immigration has substantially increased the cost of housing. Many confounding factors such as white flight and zoning, but for houses, there are definitely space and distance limitations – essentially a fixed supply.

     

    Israel's situation is unusual, because a lot of local Israeli middle class had escaped from inner cities by the 1980s, and moved to more modern buildings in newer cities they constructed in the countryside.

    Originally, when Israel was third-world and their population doubled with Arab Jews, they constructed inside the cities thousands of cheap Khrushchev style panel buildings (but of lower quality than in the USSR).

    In addition, there are many buildings which are more "African level", with corrugated roofs - which is socially more equivalent of barracks housing in the earlier USSR.

    When they could afford to move out, the native Israelis escaped the cities, and went to neighbouring areas, where the housing conditions were better. Cities like Tel Aviv became depopulated - with a situation probably very similar to Detroit.

    Then from the 2000s, it became slightly fashionable for rich foreigners (probably almost all Jews, but also people without any Jewish descent) to want to buy apartments in cities like Tel Aviv and Herzilya.

    This contributed to rejuvenation of the cities, destroying of older buildings, and construction of high density projects (sometimes skyscrapers) inside the city.

    Property prices would increase, but so also is supply. Because these are very high density projects, the space itself is being increased vertically.

    Israel does not have oil money to build high quality projects, so they should welcome foreign people buying property there.

    Another benefit of foreign property owners, is that they are usually not there, so they do not add pressure to the infrastructure or transport system.


    Israeli zoning laws are something I have no concept of. Maybe, they are more friendly for developers.

     

    I don't know, but I would believe the opposite. The country is famous for having too much bureaucracy. Cyprus would likely be a lot better.

    But in this case - it's a classic case of populist socialist policy damaging your economic sources. Israel does not have oil money, so why would you scare away foreign property investors with taxes.

  202. @songbird
    That is something I hadn't considered - the draft. I had thought about dual taxation, but don't know their policies. Perhaps, it would be a problem for the super-rich.

    Where I live, I would say immigration has substantially increased the cost of housing. Many confounding factors such as white flight and zoning, but for houses, there are definitely space and distance limitations - essentially a fixed supply. I don't know about urban apartments and foreign ownership. Israeli zoning laws are something I have no concept of. Maybe, they are more friendly for developers.

    In Cyprus, anyone who buys $2 million of property in the island, is automatically given Cyprus citizenship.

    As a result, 50,000 Russians moved to Cyprus (mostly not living there permanently, but just buy enough property that they could attain citizenship of Cyprus).

    This transforms Cyprus’ economy, and now creates a large proportion of the country’s GDP.

    In addition, this results in construction of higher quality property and a boom to cities like Limassol. A lot of the houses are empty in most of the year, but some Russians live there permanently and go to school in Cyprus.

    There is also an issue of conscription in Cyprus for men, but the service is extremely mild and not something people care about escaping (unlike Israel, where the army is very difficult, and the soldiers are not paid, and often fall into poverty). I actually met someone who was in the Cyprus army and he didn’t say anything about it.

    That is something I hadn’t considered – the draft. I had thought about dual taxation, but don’t know their policies. Perhaps, it would be a problem for the super-rich.

    It’s a problem for normal people, because they’d added multiple different taxes, including special extra taxes for people who buy more than one property or rent the property.

    Israel could be even worse than France now (which is where a lot of foreigners had to sell property they had bought earlier).

    Where I live, I would say immigration has substantially increased the cost of housing. Many confounding factors such as white flight and zoning, but for houses, there are definitely space and distance limitations – essentially a fixed supply.

    Israel’s situation is unusual, because a lot of local Israeli middle class had escaped from inner cities by the 1980s, and moved to more modern buildings in newer cities they constructed in the countryside.

    Originally, when Israel was third-world and their population doubled with Arab Jews, they constructed inside the cities thousands of cheap Khrushchev style panel buildings (but of lower quality than in the USSR).

    In addition, there are many buildings which are more “African level”, with corrugated roofs – which is socially more equivalent of barracks housing in the earlier USSR.

    When they could afford to move out, the native Israelis escaped the cities, and went to neighbouring areas, where the housing conditions were better. Cities like Tel Aviv became depopulated – with a situation probably very similar to Detroit.

    Then from the 2000s, it became slightly fashionable for rich foreigners (probably almost all Jews, but also people without any Jewish descent) to want to buy apartments in cities like Tel Aviv and Herzilya.

    This contributed to rejuvenation of the cities, destroying of older buildings, and construction of high density projects (sometimes skyscrapers) inside the city.

    Property prices would increase, but so also is supply. Because these are very high density projects, the space itself is being increased vertically.

    Israel does not have oil money to build high quality projects, so they should welcome foreign people buying property there.

    Another benefit of foreign property owners, is that they are usually not there, so they do not add pressure to the infrastructure or transport system.

    Israeli zoning laws are something I have no concept of. Maybe, they are more friendly for developers.

    I don’t know, but I would believe the opposite. The country is famous for having too much bureaucracy. Cyprus would likely be a lot better.

    But in this case – it’s a classic case of populist socialist policy damaging your economic sources. Israel does not have oil money, so why would you scare away foreign property investors with taxes.

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