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Ooh, scary.

, , , , and 25 others

Other signatories: Vassilis Alexakis (Athens), Svetlana Alexievich (Minsk), Anne Applebaum (Warsaw), Jens Christian Grøndahl (Copenhagen), David Grossman (Jerusalem), Ágnes Heller (Budapest), Ismaïl Kadaré (Tirana), György Konrád (Debrecen), António Lobo Antunes (Lisbon), Claudio Magris (Trieste), Ian McEwan (London), Adam Michnik (Warsaw), Herta Müller (Berlin), Ludmila Oulitskaïa (Moscow), Rob Riemen (Amsterdam), Fernando Savater (San Sebastián), Roberto Saviano (Naples), Eugenio Scalfari (Rome), Simon Schama (London), Peter Schneider (Berlin), Abdulah Sidran (Sarajevo), Leïla Slimani (Paris), Colm Tóibín (Dublin), Mario Vargas Llosa (Madrid), Adam Zagajewski (Cracow)

dis gon b gud

Fight for Europe – or the wreckers will destroy it

“Wrecking” was the term used under Stalinism to designate scapegoats for the failure of projects that were unrealistic to begin with.

One wonders if they got the idea from co-signer Svetlana Alexievich, a talentless novelist who used to write glowing odes to Soviet secret police founder Felix Dzerzhinsky before bashing Russia became more handshakeworthy.

“Enough of ‘building Europe’!” is the cry. Let’s reconnect instead with our “national soul”! Let’s rediscover our “lost identity”! This is the agenda shared by the populist forces washing over the continent. Never mind that abstractions such as “soul” and “identity” often exist only in the imagination of demagogues.

Just to clarify what these people mean by identity: “BHL” is the guy who feels closer to an Afghan than a French FN voter.

The continent is vulnerable to the increasingly brazen meddling by the occupant of the Kremlin. Europe as an idea is falling apart before our eyes.

Of course, in their world, Obama visiting Britain to campaign against Brexit is not “meddling,” let alone “brazen.”

For those who still believe in the legacy of Erasmus, Dante, Goethe and Comenius there will be only ignominious defeat. A politics of disdain for intelligence and culture will have triumphed. There will be explosions of xenophobia and antisemitism. Disaster will have befallen us.

I think this is pretty problematic. Dante was a bigot who consigned Muslims and homosexuals to hell.

Hence this exhortation to carry once more the torch of a Europe that, despite its mistakes, its lapses, and its occasional acts of cowardice, remains a beacon for every free man and woman on the planet.

Back in 2011, BHL wrote op-ed after op-ed urging Western military intervention in Libya, which apart from plunging that country into a civil war that last to today also opened up the sluice gates to African migrants.

This is presumably what they mean by carrying “the torch of Europe.” They carry said torch, toss it on woodpiles, then blame Russians and Nazis (but I repeat myself) for the resulting arson.

 
• Category: Ideology • Tags: Europe, Neoliberalism, Western Hypocrisy 
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  1. We urge European patriots to resist the nationalist onslaught.

    I thought this ‘patriot vs nationalist’ dichotomy by Macron was a one-time thing. I hope it doesn’t stick.

    Never mind that abstractions such as ‘soul’ and ‘identity’ often exist only in the imagination of demagogues.

    Cue AaronB telling us Jews and ‘elite whites’ don’t suffer from materialism.

    Back in 2011, BHL wrote op-ed after op-ed urging Western military intervention in Libya, which apart from plunging that country into a civil war that last to today also opened up the sluice gates to African migrants.

    Don’t forget also resurrecting the time-honoured Arab tradition of enslaving blacks. So even on their own measurement the attack on Libya was a failure.

    Hence this exhortation to carry once more the torch of a Europe that, despite its mistakes, its lapses, and its occasional acts of cowardice, remains a beacon for every man and woman on the planet.

    How American. But aside from that, their weakness lies in the fact that they are, even in a hortative propaganda piece, unable to unashamedly celebrate ‘normative’ European culture in the same way as nationalists can.

  2. Guardian has given signatories cities but not their countries. It is supposed to symbolise signatories/Guardians’ objection to nationalism? We are all citizens of Europe consisting of small homelands under the benevolent rule of Brussels bureaucracy ?

    Its also pretty symbolic in other way – all signatories live in big cities. Ominous.

  3. Guardian has given signatories cities but not their countries. It is supposed to symbolise their objection to nationalism? We are all citizens of Europe consisting of small homelands under the benevolent rule of Brussels bureaucracy ?

    Its also pretty symbolic in other way – all signatories live in big cities. No small towns or villages.

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
    , @neutral
  4. @Bies Podkrakowski

    It is supposed to symbolise their objection to nationalism? We are all citizens of Europe consisting of small homelands under the benevolent rule of Brussels bureaucracy ?

    Possibly. Several of them also have cosmopolitan backgrounds.

    • Replies: @YetAnotherAnon
  5. Some of these people are rather funny:

    Sidran made regional headlines in January 2015 when he claimed that his former friend and director Emir Kusturica in fact died defending Sarajevo during the war in 1994 and was replaced by a Serb doppelganger named Pantelija Milisavljević. Kusturica is an ethnic Bosniak who began self-identifying as a Serb during the war of the 1990s. In response to the claims, Kusturica called Sidran a “soulful bum”.

    In 2006 [Lyudmila Ulitskaya] published Daniel Stein, Interpreter (Даниэль Штайн, переводчик), a novel dealing with the Holocaust and the need for reconciliation between Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. Ulitskaya herself belongs to a group of people formed by the realities of the former Soviet Union, who see themselves ethnically and culturally as Jews, while having adopted Christianity as their religion.

    [Half-Austrian, half-Czech Jewish Elfriede] Jelinek petitioned for the release of Jack Unterweger, who was imprisoned for the murder of a prostitute, and who was regarded by intellectuals and politicians as an example of successful rehabilitation. Unterweger was later found guilty of murdering nine more women within two years of his release, and committed suicide after his arrest.

    • Replies: @WHAT
  6. neutral says:
    @Bies Podkrakowski

    One of the cities listed is not even in Europe (David Grossman (Jerusalem)), this is by far the most telling thing. Europe is not even a geographic location any more, even this does not pass the kosher test on what is an acceptable definition of Europe.

  7. Dmitry says:

    How is text of neoliberalism.

    Published in the socialistic newspaper the Guardian, and with no relation to any ideas of the neoliberal ideologists – Hayek, Friedman, etc.

    Content has some relation to Hayek perhaps, in the sense he was supporter of economic federalism for Europe. But this is not at all the centralization and dissolving of nationalities, of present times EU.
    https://www.martenscentre.eu/sites/default/files/publication-files/european-federalism-spinelli-hayek.pdf

  8. anon[241] • Disclaimer says:

    Vargas Llosa is that writer who once condemned the American invasion of Iraq with rational arguments, but then he became enamored of it, because being anti-war was a “fascist” thing and went on to enthusiastically defend the American occupation of Baghdad after an Intourist-style tour organized by the US military. This writer no longer deserves any respect after that.

  9. Dmitry says:
    @Hyperborean

    It is good evidence to support of the view of AaronB proposed about higher human capital attracted to an idealistic left, at least in a cultural sphere.

    If you go to Turkey, would you find more civilized Orhan Pamuk, or Erdogan? Pamuk (and his books in all our bookshops) is an international symbol of civilized Turks.

    Similar with Israel and David Grossman. Grossman is representative of the kind of leftist, secular Israelis, who are discussing Plato outside in the cafe. (Not the crazy rightist Israelis with settlements or with religious hats).

    With Latin America, Mario Vargas Llosa represents a pinnacle of the European culture and intellectuals. He has become a symbol of civilized South Americans (kind of an inversion of Chavez).

    Even Milan Kundera is probably the most famous of the Czechs.

    These people have crazy politics and artistic personalities, but also vast career success, high productivity, writing skills, etc.

    Yet they can sign this stupid, badly written letter (which is including random blame of Putin for EU incompetence).

    Lol imagine even one people as famous as this would sign one of Karlin’s articles.

    • Replies: @Ender
    , @Hyperborean
    , @Beckow
  10. @Dmitry

    Neoliberalism.txt, not neoliberalism. Different things.

    For instance, I am relatively neoliberal on economic policy, as is Felix Keverich.

    • Replies: @Mr. XYZ
    , @Yevardian
  11. DFH says:

    Bernard Henri-Lévy
    Elfriede Jelinek
    Anne Applebaum
    David Grossman
    György Konrád
    Adam Michnik
    Ludmila Oulitskaïa (partial)
    Roberto Saviano
    Simon Schama

    9/30, for people who are interested in that sort of thing.

  12. songbird says:

    Well, if an Indian like Salman Rushdie can get behind the idea of the EU – actually WTF! That’s pretty messed up. He should return to India and campaign for a united India.

  13. neutral says:
    @DFH

    But of course jews have nothing to do with this, very soon the jews here will comment on how it is simple minded to believe this. It has to do with despair, automation, birth control, protestants, you name it – but not jews.

    • Replies: @Tyrion 2
  14. @DFH

    9/30, for people who are interested in that sort of thing.

    I haven’t gone through the list thoroughly but you missed at least António Lobo Antunes and Agnes Heller as well.

  15. szopen says:
    @Hyperborean

    I thought this ‘patriot vs nationalist’ dichotomy by Macron was a one-time thing.

    In Polish the distinction patriot-nationalist was always present. Many of the signatories are Polish.

    (patriota-nacjonalista-narodowiec-szowinista are four different words in Polish)

    • Replies: @Swarthy Greek
  16. Ender says:
    @Dmitry

    Well the tower of Babel was certainly not built by dimwits right?

  17. @Dmitry

    It is good evidence to support of the view of AaronB proposed about higher human capital attracted to an idealistic left, at least in a cultural sphere.

    […]

    These people have crazy politics and artistic personalities, but also vast career success, high productivity, writing skills, etc.

    Perhaps. Some of them are genuinely accomplished in their own right, while others are clearly mid-rates wildly over-promoted because of their political views.

    But I reject AaronB’s demoralising propaganda-conjection.

    And it is not like European conservative intellectuals are non-existent. Groups such as Carrefour de l’horloge, GRECE and the Centre for European Renewal are some examples.

    The Dutch political party (roughly comparable to the Alt-Right) Forum for Democracy also includes a lot of intellectuals, probably a lot more than ordinary ‘centrist’ parties.

    Any midwit hack can write a book that subcribes to the ruling ideology and become famous due to little effort of their own, it is harder to go against the tide.

    • Replies: @Ender
    , @Dmitry
  18. Ender says:
    @Hyperborean

    Maybe more intelligent people think that they are above the laws laid down by Providence, because only dumb people need to be restrained by those laws, or the traditions that are handed by their forefathers?

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
  19. songbird says:
    @DFH

    I have wondered if hyphenated surnames have a higher penetrance of globalism, even setting aside the obvious Jewish tendency, but don’t know enough acquaintances with double surnames to test it. And my thoughts may be colored by it being a feminist tendency in America, as well as by my particular acquaintances elsewhere.

    If it is so, that there is a link, I imagine it may only hold true in certain countries, where the custom has a certain origin.

  20. @Ender

    Maybe more intelligent people think that they are above the laws laid down by Providence, because only dumb people need to be restrained by those laws, or the traditions that are handed by their forefathers?

    Some perhaps. Most do not even believe in the legitimacy of limitations at all (Il est interdit d’interdire) and consider the fact that most people at least implicitly do an abomination which must be rectified by any means necessary.

  21. Never mind that abstractions such as ‘soul’ and ‘identity’ often exist only in the imagination of demagogues.

    Literally an open admission that these reptiles are soulless, rootless cosmopolitans.
    Worthless scum.

    • Agree: reiner Tor, Per/Norway
  22. Dmitry says:
    @Hyperborean

    The famous ones though, are really famous, and possibly important (talented?).

    For example, Mario Vargas Llosa is probably the most famous and important writer in the Spanish language of today. When I wanted to learn Spanish, I was recommended his documentary literature books. In the bookshops in Spain, his books seem like the most prominently sold.

    Spanish is a language with 500 million people. He is a possibly 1 in 500 milllion people, possibly most important still alive person in the language, and is a signature for this incoherent letter, which is written less intelligently than most of my (a not talented or famous writer) comments here which I thoughtlessly compose in 5 minutes.

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
    , @Dmitry
  23. @szopen

    The patriot/nationalist (false) dichotomy is a mainstay of french political debate since the end of WW2 and often used to whip rightists into submission.

  24. @Dmitry

    The famous ones though, are really famous, and possibly important (talented?).

    As a counterexample, maybe Houellebecq? To be honest, I tend to primarily read classical literature that has weathered the test of time, whether it is written by liberals or reactionaries.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  25. Dmitry says:
    @Dmitry

    He was opposition presidential candidate to Fujimori though in 1990. He identified then as a moderate neoliberal.

    Fujimori was very successful and popular eventually for Peru, after the “Fujishock” economic program (which was actually much more strong than what Vargas Llosa had proposed).

  26. Dmitry says:
    @Hyperborean

    I haven’t read books from any of authors’ writings either, which is why I wasn’t sure. I don’t have time to read literature and I also usually read older classics if I have time.

    But I know from bookshops around the world, that some of these are incredibly famous, so I assume they must be talented.

    I’ve even heard someone say Turks are a civilized European people, because of Orhan Pamuk.

    As for Houellebecq, I have not read him either.

    Of Nobel Prize winners, you can see the only living European ones of the last decades not in the list are Patrick Modiano, Jean-Marie Gustave Le Clézio and Tomas Tranströmer.

    The other European Nobel Prize winners of the last decades, all seem to sign the letter.

  27. Antonio Lobo Antunes: Let me be very clear. For me geography does not exist! I strongly object to the whole concept of “foreign literature”…and speaking of national identity: that is how dictatorships get started!

    […]

    Where does one find good literature today? Mostly in third world countries, because adversity, isolation, combat provide good working conditions. It is harder to be a good writer in a so-called “civilized” country, in the so-called “democracies.”

    […]

    Rail: You must be aware that you are considered a difficult author. If one opens a page of this last “novel,” the typographic arrangement, the rhythm, the music of the text seem very close to poetry. The switching among narrative voices, the slipping between first and third person, the associative collages, the dilating and contracting of time, all contribute to the richness of the text. A critic has called your style “barely legible.” Does this disturb you?

    https://brooklynrail.org/2008/11/books/geography-it-doesnt-exist-antonio-lobo-antunes-with-alessandro-cassin

  28. Dante was a bigot who consigned Muslims and homosexuals to hell.

    iirc Erasmus was quite anti-Jewish as well (and of course in favour of the preservation of Christendom). Funny how these people pretend his humanism was the same as their “secular humanism”.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  29. will the yentas ever learn?

  30. @Hyperborean

    I thought this ‘patriot vs nationalist’ dichotomy by Macron was a one-time thing.

    It’s a not uncommon distinction in German political discourse, e.g. Germany’s president Johannes Rau said in 1999:

    Ein Patriot ist jemand, der sein Vaterland liebt, ein Nationalist ist jemand, der die Vaterländer der anderen verachtet. Wir aber wollen ein Volk der guten Nachbarn sein, in Europa und in der Welt

    “A patriot loves his own motherland, a nationalist despises those of others. We want to be a people of good neighbours, in Europe and the world.”

    Which is of course quite sensible taken by itself. There’s also the distinction though between civic constitutional patriotism and eeeeeeevil ethnic (völkisch) nationalism. Basicially one is supposed to love Germany only because of nice landscapes and its wonderful Grundgesetz (so it doesn’t matter who actually lives in Germany, immigrants will adopt our “values”).
    There’s also the European dimension of course…I suppose when the signatories of that statement call themselves “European patriots”, it’s supposed to mean “patriots of Europe” (in the sense of an abstract, cosmopolitan project), not of their respective countries of origin.

    • Replies: @Swedish Family
  31. songbird says:

    They should have exclusively referenced homo writers like Oscar Wilde, EM Forster, Proust, and Thomas Mann. I guess Erasmus counts, though, even if he would be unacceptable for other reasons.

    • Replies: @German_reader
    , @songbird
  32. Tyrion 2 says:
    @neutral

    21 out of 30 people who sign a stupid letter are not Jewish, so Jews are to blame?

    • Replies: @German_reader
    , @DFH
  33. @songbird

    I guess Erasmus counts

    They probably just referenced him because of the EU’s Erasmus student exchange programme (which is supposed to create some common European identity among the young or whatever):
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erasmus_Programme
    I’ve never heard anything about Erasmus having been a homo, seems unlikely.

    • Replies: @DFH
    , @songbird
  34. songbird says:
    @songbird

    Though someone with more of a bent for literature could undoubtedly come up with a funnier list.

    I ‘m thinking specifically of Langston Hughes – gay mulatto American author with significant Jewish ancestry. But am having a hard time padding the list out. Maybe, it should just be black American communists, like Dubois?

    I had though of Arabs, but unfortunately they don’t write much and aren’t often celebrated for their gayness.

  35. DFH says:
    @German_reader

    Erasmus is clearly designed to break down ethnic distinctions between different European groups by encouraging intermarriage

    The romantic potential of the scheme has not gone unnoticed. In 2011 Umberto Eco, the Italian novelist, described it as a “sexual revolution” sweeping Europe. “The university exchange programme Erasmus is barely mentioned in the business sections of newspapers, yet Erasmus has created the first generation of young Europeans,” he told Italian newspaper La Stampa.

    “I call it a sexual revolution: a young Catalan man meets a Flemish girl – they fall in love, they get married and they become European, as do their children. The Erasmus idea should be compulsory – not just for students, but also for taxi drivers, plumbers and other workers. By this, I mean they need to spend time in other countries within the European Union; they should integrate.”

    https://www.independent.co.uk/student/news/eus-erasmus-study-abroad-programme-responsible-for-1m-babies-9751749.html

    • Agree: utu
    • Replies: @songbird
  36. @Tyrion 2

    It’s 11/30, which is a pretty stunning overrepresentation.
    Neutral’s Nazi-like views that “the international Jew” is behind everything aren’t convincing imo, but I don’t think you can deny that there’s special enthusiasm among many Jews for seeing the EU as an anti-national project, based on “the lessons of Auschwitz” (with generous supporting roles for Muslims, due to “the Bosnian genocide” or whatever).
    Whether this matters much in the grand scheme of things, is another question. It shouldn’t be surprising though that it’s likely to increase resentment of Jews.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    , @neutral
  37. DFH says:
    @Tyrion 2

    Pure coincidence that Jews make up <0.1% of the European population and yet are 33% of an anti-nationalist letter

    • Replies: @Tyrion 2
  38. Dmitry says:
    @German_reader

    All living European Nobel Prize winners except 3 signed the letter. So it’s you rather can see the cultural elite of Europe, has a lot of people Jewish roots.

    Patrick Modiano, Jean-Marie Gustave Le Clézio and Tomas Tranströmer – are the 3 European Nobel Prize winners which didn’t sign it.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    , @Epigon
    , @melanf
  39. Dmitry says:
    @German_reader

    I don’t think they read Erasmus (I never saw Erasmus in the bookshop, and even famous writers shop in the same bookshops as us).

    It’s more likely that their children will be using the Erasmus program for student exchange, and that they read about Erasmus in relation to that program.

  40. Dmitry says:
    @Dmitry

    Patrick Modiano, Jean-Marie Gustave Le Clézio and Tomas Tranströmer – are the 3 European Nobel Prize winners which didn’t sign it.

    And checking on Wikipedia – even their composition 1/3 Jewish.

  41. WHAT says:
    @Hyperborean

    Soviet marranos, holy shit…why am I surprised, though?

  42. I haven’t read him, but isn’t Orhan Pamuk some sort of Turkish Umberto Eco wannabe?

    I really liked Schama’s book on the French Revolution (Citizens). It was actually very anti-revolutionary, pointing out (with statistics) the myriad ways how in which it represented a massive regress relative to the progress being made under the ancien regime. Incidentally, to address Dmitry’s earlier complaint, his views are very much neoliberal.

    • Replies: @German_reader
    , @Tyrion 2
  43. @Anatoly Karlin

    but isn’t Orhan Pamuk some sort of Turkish Umberto Eco wannabe

    I think he’s mostly known for speaking out against Turkey’s denial of the Armenian genocide and his criticism of the kind of Turkish ultra-nationalists who murdered Hrant Dink. So definitely a political dimension to his reception in the West.
    Haven’t read him either though (and don’t intend to), can’t comment on his literary merits.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    , @Yevardian
  44. Tyrion 2 says:
    @DFH

    1. They got a bunch of Nobel prize winners and the like to sign the letter.

    2. Those prize winners and the like are disproportionately Jewish.

    3. So the letter signers are disproportionately Jewish.

    Shocking…

    Also, to be honest, it isn’t easy, personally, to ignore the abyss of anti-Semitism glooming adjacent to you when you stand on the nationalist side. It actually is vile.

    Fortunately, I am unusually able to not take things personally but, since practically everybody
    else takes everything personally nowadays, it seems that I might end up quite lonely.

  45. DFH says:
    @Tyrion 2

    Also, to be honest, it isn’t easy, personally, to ignore the abyss of anti-Semitism glooming adjacent to you when you stand on the nationalist side. It actually is vile.

    Fortunately, I am unusually able to not take things personally but, since practically everybody
    else takes everything personally nowadays, it seems that I might end up quite lonely.

    How dare I point out an overrepsentation of a mere 30,000%! How vile of me! Nationalism is all about not pointing out negative behaviour of other ethnic groups that is harming your nation. Real nationalism is about making sure that your actions are acceptable to Jews and that their feelings don’t get hurt.

    If you were a nationalist in your own nation, Israel, then none of the nationalists would be anti-Semitic. You’d be surrounded by your own people and wouldn’t have to feel lonely. You’re free to leave any time.

    • Replies: @Tyrion 2
  46. Tyrion 2 says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    If one were to design a person who’d be least likely to offend anyone at a London dinner party, it’d be a replica of Simon Schama.

  47. Tyrion 2 says:
    @DFH

    If you didn’t make comments like that the rest of this country might not despise you and your political views so much.

  48. songbird says:
    @German_reader

    I was thinking that was why they included Goethe – his association the German government, not culturally, but bureaucratically. Incidentally, though I never visited there, I understand the Goethe Institute in Boston was run by an obvious fag for some period.

    Erasmus I put in the maybe category. There’s a lot of historical revisionism, where they look at old letters, that were perhaps meant to be comical. (Ex: Lincoln) But homos were surprisingly common within certain contexts, like priestly or scholarly. Only guy I knew who became a priest was gay. I have read Russian literature that included womanly monks.

  49. DFH says:
    @Tyrion 2

    If Jews weren’t 30,000% overrepresented in anti-nationalist letters, I wouldn’t complain about them and their political views so much.

    • Replies: @Tyrion 2
  50. @Tyrion 2

    By that logic one could never point out questionable behaviour by any minority community (which of course also means there’s no incentive to change among members of said minority).

    • Replies: @Tyrion 2
  51. Beckow says:
    @Dmitry

    …Even Milan Kundera is probably the most famous of the Czechs.

    Really? I don’t think so. Kundera was a Stalinist hack in his youth (just like Svetlana Alexeevich). Then he left for Paris and started to write in French. He mostly loosely translated old Czech urban folklore stories, proverbs and clever witticisms – a ‘cosmopolitan’ plagiarist. French were enamoured, because that’s just the way they are.

    Kundera is not very well known in the Czech Republic, and people generally don’t think much of him. Most famous, definitely not.

    The most original thing Kundera wrote was early on: ‘and from the ocean waves we could hear thundering Stalin, Stalin, Stalin…‘. Yes, a poem about batyuska Stalin. He has come a full circle, but then Kundera is not a serious person – he literally just follows the food.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    , @reiner Tor
    , @LH
  52. Tyrion 2 says:
    @DFH

    1. They’re not overpresented in a letter from Nobel prize winners and the like.

    2. Regardless of the reason for your comment, it is still obviously counter-productive.

    • Replies: @DFH
  53. neutral says:
    @German_reader

    aren’t convincing

    It could be 30/30 and you will still claim it has nothing to do with jews.

    • Replies: @Tyrion 2
  54. Tyrion 2 says:
    @neutral

    It could be 0/27 like EU leaders and you’d still be pretending it is all about the Jews.

  55. songbird says:
    @DFH

    Goethe Institutes can be seen in a similar, but more sinister context. Many pictures of blacks on their website. Locations in 98 countries including Saudi Arabia.

    I wonder how many countries have that many embassies and what the first year was that they did.

  56. Dmitry says:
    @Beckow

    I’d guess Kundera is the most famous Czech, if my knowledge is a representative sample.

    Kundera’s the only writer I can think of from Prague (apart from maybe Kafka). And Kundera’s books are very prominent in the bookshops (in all countries/languages).

    For example, Kundera’s famous book (unbearable lightness) is very known and promoted in Russia. I’m not sure any other Czech writer is promoted internationally.

    • Replies: @Beckow
    , @utu
    , @Swedish Family
  57. DFH says:
    @Tyrion 2

    Out of 114 Nobel Prize for Literature winners, 24 were non-European, meaning that 90 Europeans have won. Of those, 9 were Jewish. So they are still three times over-represented (even putting aside the fact that those winners cluster towards the start of the century when Europe had far more Jews).

    2. Regardless of the reason for your comment, it is still obviously counter-productive.

    Your prior comment makes it perfectly clear that you oppose it because it offends you personally, as a Jew, not because of its effect on British nationalism.
    But since the goal of British nationalism is to promote the interests of the British people and Jews living in Britain are actively harmful to Britain, one tiny symptom of which is this letter, discussion of the Jewish question and pointing out the divided loyalties of Jews like yourself who reside in Britain, even if only covertly and not in public, hast to be a part of British nationalism.

    • Replies: @Tyrion 2
  58. Dmitry says:

    Is it me, or Tyrion and DFH write like they are the same person, with their writing style? Just one on the side of Jews and one opposed, with perhaps equal enthusiasm levels.

    • Replies: @Tyrion 2
  59. @Tyrion 2

    Your entire argument seems to be just the standard antiracist line that one should never point out noticeable patterns of behaviour among minorities and potential conflicts of interest with majority populations, because that would be unfounded “bigotry” (repellent to every moral person) and we’re all individuals anyway.
    I mean I get you find the antisemitism on Unz review offensive, but it often seems to me you want to simply uphold existing taboos on speech, which makes discussion rather pointless.

    • Replies: @Tyrion 2
  60. Beckow says:

    Who signed it, and what it says, is less important than the fact that our betters have decided that a manifesto of this kind is needed. To claim that Europe is going through ‘worst crisis since the 30’s‘ is nonsense, unless they are worried that the globo-homo-migrant onslaught has peaked (I am being an optimist). They see that as a setback.

    The mechanical going-through-the-motions nature of the manifesto, assembling an elderly crowd of literati, and publishing in the despicable Guardian – it suggest that they don’t have a clue. It was timed to coincide with Davos, another forum that is hopelessly stuck on a side-rail.

    When things change, the old becomes irrelevant. What they talk about, their historical references (the 30’s!!!), their vocabulary – none of it rings true. So why this geriatric assembly? I suspect a part of the reason is that as things have evolved over the last few years it is actually not easy to find younger and still prominent supporters of what is so obviously not working. Anyone younger has a self-preservation instinct not to be the last moron shouting a losing ideology. In politics we get new faces ala Macron, but in culture one has to have a certain gravitas to be usable.

    This is a sign of panic. They have everything, own everything, control everything. But they don’t have results. The neo-liberal ideology simply doesn’t work. Rolling out some loser Jelinek won’t fix that.

    • Replies: @peterAUS
  61. Tyrion 2 says:
    @German_reader

    Show me one time I made the argument that we cannot point out negative trends among Jews.

    • Replies: @German_reader
  62. Dmitry says:
    @German_reader

    Orhan Pamuk books are sold a bit in bookshops as translations.

    I remember my mother has read an Orhan Pamuk book. With Pamuk (also Kundera and Ian McEwen), it’s maybe a bit rude they signed a letter with a random sentence blaming Russian government for unrelated internal EU debates and problems – as those writers have a nonpolitical readership in Russia and happily receive the money of people expensively buying their books in Russian bookshops, and the VAT of each of their books sold going to the Russian government.

    • Replies: @German_reader
    , @songbird
  63. Tyrion 2 says:
    @DFH

    Your prior comment makes it perfectly clear that you oppose it because it offends you personally, as a Jew,

    No, it doesn’t.

    • Replies: @DFH
  64. DFH says:
    @Tyrion 2

    Also, to be honest, it isn’t easy, personally, to ignore the abyss of anti-Semitism glooming adjacent to you when you stand on the nationalist side. It actually is vile.

    Fortunately, I am unusually able to not take things personally but, since practically everybody
    else takes everything personally nowadays, it seems that I might end up quite lonely.

    Note that the comment that triggered this response wasn’t insulting Jews or using pejorative terms or threatening them etc., it only pointed out their overrepresentation.

    • Replies: @Tyrion 2
  65. Tyrion 2 says:
    @Dmitry

    And yet I have not written a single thing praising Jews as Jews nor damning Gentiles as Gentiles. I have plenty of comments, you’ll find no examples.

  66. @Tyrion 2

    You always react with really daft apologetics though (e.g. when DFH once pointed out the over-representation of Jews in the security police of post-war Poland, you argued it was just another case of “Jews getting the best jobs” due to their intelligence, as if being in the commie secret police was something to brag about).
    I mean, ok, attributing every ill in the world to nefarious Jewish plots (as many authors and commenters on Unz review do) is pretty mental and I understand such demonization is offensive to you, but denying that Jews have often played a disproportionate role in left-wing or liberal movements (and that Jewish organizations today are often strongly pro-multicult and pro-immigration) isn’t convincing.

    • Agree: iffen, reiner Tor
    • Replies: @Tyrion 2
  67. Tyrion 2 says:
    @DFH

    No, you specifically said that Jews as Jews in Britain are actively harmful. Read your own comment…also, obviously your comment was not the full manifestation of the abyss which I was referring to, obviously.

    • Replies: @DFH
    , @DFH
  68. peterAUS says:
    @Beckow

    Agree.

    Especially with:

    Who signed it, and what it says, is less important than the fact that our betters have decided that a manifesto of this kind is needed.

    The mechanical going-through-the-motions nature of the manifesto, assembling an elderly crowd of literati, and publishing in the despicable Guardian – it suggest that they don’t have a clue.

    This is a sign of panic.

    The opponent’s panic creates an opportunity.

    Seizing and exploiting that opportunity is another matter, though.

    • Replies: @Beckow
  69. @Dmitry

    it’s maybe a bit rude they signed a letter with a random sentence blaming Russian government for unrelated internal EU debates and problems

    They’d say they’re only against the “dictator” Putin, not against the wonderful Russian people which needs to be liberated.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    , @Beckow
  70. DFH says:
    @Tyrion 2

    No, you specifically said that Jews as Jews in Britain are actively harmful

    You are getting the order of comments mixed up, in the two earlier comments, including the one you were responding to, I only mentioned Jewish over-representation in the letter.

    But anyway, Jews in Britain are harmful and are vastly over-represented among people harming British people. ‘Anti-racist’ and ‘anti-fascist’ groups in Britain were almost exclusively created by Jews, to name just one small example. Their positive contributions can’t ouweigh their contribution to an existential threat for British people.

    More broadly, Jewish people are not British and so will have different ethnic interests (as you yourself demonstrate with your constant apologetics) and have proved (unlike other European immigrants) unassimilable, so the best solution is for them to leave to their own nation, which fortunately already exists and would love to have more Jewish immigrants.
    That applies to all non-European ethnic groups though, it is only the incredible harm that Jewish people have done to Britain that makes it a particular problem.

    • Replies: @Tyrion 2
    , @Mr. XYZ
  71. DFH says:
    @Tyrion 2

    Your comment annoyed me in particular, since you (not-British) were trying to police what British nationalists ought to be allowed to say, in defence of your own ethnic interests, all the while claiming to be British.

    It’s a little like if an Arab in Israel were to claim to be an Israeli nationalist and started telling genuine Israelis who were nationalists to stop pointing out bad Arab behaviours.

    • Replies: @Tyrion 2
  72. songbird says:
    @Dmitry

    I may have mentioned it before – I know it is tenuous – but denunciations of meddling Russians remind me of Soviet denunciations of White Russians, which were often similarly farcical in nature.

  73. Tyrion 2 says:
    @German_reader

    You’re confusing “Best job” as in one that benefits the holder the most with the the “most moral”. Very few times do people refer to “best job” as the “most moral”, normally they mean one that accrues the most benefits to them. Such is the state of the world.

    This means my point was true.

    but denying that Jews have often played a disproportionate role in left-wing or liberal movements (and that Jewish organizations today are often strongly pro-multicult and pro-immigration) isn’t convincing.

    I’ve never done that. Indeed, I’ve often done the opposite.

  74. Beckow says:
    @Dmitry

    Unbearable lightness is an unbearably derivative book for anyone familiar with Czech colloquialisms. It also play fast and loose with historical facts. Life is elsewhere is more authentic.

    I can always spot the kind of person who relates to Kundera (Moscow must be full of them). There is something unfinished and unserious about them, yet they are full of yearning for something. Kundera is an escapist and absurdist and he uses heavy eroticism as a distraction so readers don’t realise that the stories are mostly about nothing. Maybe it comes from his Stalinist youth, lying combined with shame, fake decisiveness, always looking for an exit. There is very little Czech in any of it.

    Kafka was an Austrian Jew who wrote in German, he is also hopelessly over-rated. I don’t think anyone will read him a few generations from now. He is quite unreadable, his fame is all about a few out-of-context and misunderstood memes – people project on him.

    I can’t control what one sees in metropolitan bookstores, but they are not reflective of cultures. You also don’t see much Kundera in Prague bookstores.

    • Replies: @El Dato
    , @reiner Tor
  75. Tyrion 2 says:
    @DFH

    I’m not trying to police anything. I observed that your behaviour was an example of why your politics are despised. It certainly isn’t the policies of maximising citizenship value (the message), therefore it is the messenger (people who act like you.)

    Also, if there was a free vote on who gets to be British and our bios were made public, I have absolutely no doubt that I’d win over you in the biggest landslide in electoral history.

    • Replies: @DFH
  76. Tyrion 2 says:
    @DFH

    I get your circular argument. If a Jews disagrees that all Jews are evil then they are lying and proof that all Jews are evil. Cool.

    • Replies: @DFH
  77. Dmitry says:
    @German_reader

    It’s acceptable, healthy and normal for them to criticize Putin and the Russian government.

    But the article is supposed to be about EU and various nonsense there (nothing relevant to Russia), but has this distracting sentence of “dog whistle” in relation to conspiracy theories about Russian government, which is shifting the responsibility from themselves, to an external actor (as is usual for conspiracy theories).

    You would expect Nobel Prize winners of literature see this as a bad and irresponsible style of writing. They are not some angry commentators of Unz review elaborating about their conspiracies, but the world’s most famous writers in a public statement.

    Pamuk himself is often in Russia and his books promoted in Russian government funded media (so in CNN they would call him a Kremlin agent usually). .

    • Replies: @Tyrion 2
    , @German_reader
  78. Beckow says:
    @peterAUS

    The opponent’s panic creates an opportunity.

    It also creates a very volatile environment – and that’s what we have today. People in a state of panic drop all rules and restraints. I am trying to imagine a coming world (maybe) where we deal with panicky elites, institutions, media and culture, all of them breathlessly trying to stop something that they have conjured up in their own minds (the 30’s!!!), unbound and increasingly scared.

    Now what happens if the other side start panicking too?

    • Replies: @peterAUS
  79. Tyrion 2 says:
    @Dmitry

    I assume some EU partisan thought this letter needed marketing and that the rest just did what they thought all good people would do and signed it.

  80. DFH says:
    @Tyrion 2

    I observed that your behaviour was an example of why your politics are despised

    ‘My behaviour’ was pointing out that Jews are hugely over-represented in the authors of the letter, something you described as ‘vile’.

    It certainly isn’t the policies of maximising citizenship value (the message), therefore it is the messenger (people who act like you.)

    I’m not really sure what ‘maximising citizenship value’ is, but British nationalist ought to be about protecting the interests of British people, an inevitable part of which is pointing out the harmful actions of non-British ethnic groups. This is obviously hated by the people who run Britain and so demonise the people who spread this message.

    Also, if there was a free vote on who gets to be British and our bios were made public, I have absolutely no doubt that I’d win over you in the biggest landslide in electoral history.

    Sad that you have to go to such crazy lengths of self-aggrandisement to make yourself feel better about not being British.
    I expect that Mo Farah would beat either of us, but it still doesn’t make him British.

    • Replies: @Tyrion 2
  81. @Dmitry

    Sure, it’s ridiculous to blame Russia for the EU’s self-inflicted problems, also quite dangerous. But these people need a scapegoat, they cannot admit that they have been even slightly wrong and that their anti-national programme is widely and inevitably resented by many Europeans.

    • Replies: @Beckow
    , @Dmitry
  82. DFH says:
    @Tyrion 2

    I get your circular argument. If a Jews disagrees that all Jews are evil then they are lying and proof that all Jews are evil. Cool.

    Did I say anything like that? I never said all Jews were evil or even that you (or any other Jew) was lying. You are going totally bonkers.

    If Jews defend the ethnic interests of Jews, like you do through your apologetics, then it is evidence they care about the ethnic interests of Jews, which you obviously do.

    • Replies: @Tyrion 2
  83. Tyrion 2 says:
    @DFH

    If Jews defend the ethnic interests of Jews, like you do through your apologetics, then it is evidence they care about the ethnic interests of Jews, which you obviously do.

    What apologetics? Where?

    • Replies: @DFH
  84. Beckow says:
    @German_reader

    …only against the “dictator” Putin, not against the wonderful Russian people

    Even Anne Applebaum and BHL? They seem to hate anything Russian with a passion. The argument that one can separate – at this point – Putin from Russia is not convincing. The general anti-Russian hysteria among liberals has slipped that leash long time ago.

    The problem with including the anti-Russian language in the manifesto is that it is now a geo-political tool. People who signed it are choosing a geo-political agenda, not just opining on history or ideology. Anyone on this level presumably knows this.

    brazen meddling by Kremlin‘ is not ambiguous. It is rather tribal. As we see elites lining up ideologically, they will eventually have to act on it. This will get very ugly.

  85. Beckow says:
    @German_reader

    More than a scapegoat – they need an enemy.

    I really like the part about:

    …EU despite its mistakes, its lapses, and its occasional acts of cowardice

    We see the famous ‘mistakes were made‘ passive-aggressive term combined with an attack on ‘cowardice‘. Now, let me guess: EU was cowardly for not being more militant in the past. This is a call to arms to bomb more, not less, to suppress dissent more, not to find common ground. These octogenarians are readying for a war…

  86. DFH says:
    @Tyrion 2

    Complaining when I pointed out the over-representation of Jews as authors of the letter earlier in this very thread and then telling me that I ought not to mention it

    My comment:

    Pure coincidence that Jews make up <0.1% of the European population and yet are 33% of an anti-nationalist letter

    Your comment (responding):

    1. They got a bunch of Nobel prize winners and the like to sign the letter.

    2. Those prize winners and the like are disproportionately Jewish.

    3. So the letter signers are disproportionately Jewish.

    Shocking…

    Also, to be honest, it isn’t easy, personally, to ignore the abyss of anti-Semitism glooming adjacent to you when you stand on the nationalist side. It actually is vile.

    Fortunately, I am unusually able to not take things personally but, since practically everybody
    else takes everything personally nowadays, it seems that I might end up quite lonely.

    • Replies: @Tyrion 2
  87. El Dato says:
    @Dmitry

    > socialistic newspaper the Guardian

    More like USB peripheral of UK-anian Deep State, not averse to printing incoming faxes practically verbatim.

    > with no relation to any ideas of the neoliberal ideologists – Hayek, Friedman, etc.

    Calling Hayek and Friedman “neoliberal” is quite wrong.

    Before the word got used to describe people who stay close to extremely powerful state institutions (like Central Banks, Regulators and Congresscritters eager to “intervene” in foreign countries) while looking out for number one, it was actually used to describe what one would call today “traditional liberals”: People not into state economic control but not averse to “social” state intervention either:

    https://mises.org/library/against-neoliberals

    The Mont Pèlerin Society had begun as an “ecumenical” undertaking, bringing together purebred liberals of the classical tradition and neoliberals, who endorsed interventionist schemes to one degree or another. From the beginning, Mises had been skeptical about the ecumenical concept, but for the first five or six years his apprehensions seemed unwarranted, even though the organization of all Mont Pèlerin activities lay in the hands of a devout neoliberal: Albert Hunold from Switzerland, whom Mises had first met at the 1928 Zurich meeting of the Verein für Sozialpolitik.

    ….

    The coexistence within the Mont Pèlerin Society of groups with such different orientations was well known by its members. It was also fairly obvious even for newcomers. A case in point was Jean-Pierre Hamilius, a young professor of business and economics in Luxembourg, whom Mises knew through correspondence … Hamilius immediately noticed that the society was divided along the lines of ideological orientation and language into “different groups and clans.” He himself felt closest affinities to the American group of Mises, Hayek, Hazlitt, Morley, Fertig, and Miller. From the other participants, who did not know that he had gotten his invitation through Mises, he heard reservations about “the old guard (Mises, Hayek, … )” who were sometimes called the “old conservatives.” The young professor from Luxembourg was eagerly taking notes and discussing the interventionist schemes of various members who were not yet part of the old guard. Thus John van Sickle proposed taxing rich heirs, Wilhelm Röpke favored subsidies for homeowners, and Otto Veit argued that heavy taxation would not deter entrepreneurs from working. Ludwig Erhard, fresh from the victory of his party in the 1953 elections in Germany, also gave a talk at the meeting.

    During the next three years, the conflict between Hayek and his recalcitrant secretary lurked beneath the surface. Hayek could not get substantial support to oust Hunold. Most American members were on Hayek’s side but feared that an open conflict would destroy the society. It eventually came to a showdown at the Kassel meeting in 1960. Both Hayek and Hunold stepped down from their positions, but Hunold would become vice president of the society and wreak havoc for a while longer. The 1961 meeting was to celebrate Mises’s eightieth birthday, but Hunold turned it into yet another battle between neoliberalism and laissez-faire. The Ordoliberals would soon be pushed into the background for a while; the power vacuum was not to be filled with Austro-libertarians, but economists from the Chicago School.

  88. @Dmitry

    Published in the socialistic newspaper the Guardian, and with no relation to any ideas of the neoliberal ideologists – Hayek, Friedman, etc.

    The Guardian of 2019 is very far from socialist. Its modus operandi is to push hardcore neoconservatism and neoliberalism in the name of leftism. Rather like how modern Christian churches push social liberalism in the name of social conservatism.

    We may note also that it makes a rare counterexample to Conquest’s second law (“Any organization not explicitly and constitutionally right-wing will sooner or later become left-wing”) but perfectly illustrates the third (“The behavior of any bureaucratic organization can best be understood by assuming that it is controlled by a secret cabal of its enemies”).

  89. @German_reader

    “I thought this ‘patriot vs nationalist’ dichotomy by Macron was a one-time thing.”
    It’s a not uncommon distinction in German political discourse

    Perhaps unsurprisingly, in Sweden, both words are strictly verboten in polite society. Although there have been attempts to rebrand — that is to say, co-opt — nationalism for globalist aims, much like the ones you describe in Germany. We should do a pan-European poll on how the two words are used in each country.

  90. Tyrion 2 says:
    @DFH

    ‘My behaviour’ was pointing out that Jews are hugely over-represented in the authors of the letter, something you described as ‘vile’

    No, I didn’t. I merely pointed out why Jews were overrepresented. Men were overrepresented too, as were smart people, as were people with a lot of money, as were people from major cities, as were people with world famous achievements.

    The “vile” obviously referred to the type of comments tbat riddle this site, and your repeated threats against my nationality (British) are an example of it.

    I’m not really sure what ‘maximising citizenship value’ is, but British nationalist ought to be about protecting the interests of British people, an inevitable part of which is pointing out the harmful actions of non-British ethnic groups. This is obviously hated by the people who run Britain and so demonise the people who spread this message.

    I would bet everything that my life has been much better for British interests than yours.

    Sad that you have to go to such crazy lengths of self-aggrandisement to make yourself feel better about not being British.

    Why do you enjoy pretending that I’m not British?

  91. Tyrion 2 says:
    @DFH

    I simply pointed out why they were disproportionately Jewish – they were selected as intellectuals. That is not “an apologetic”. Why are they mostly old? Mostly men? Is explaining those things making apologia?

    I then added that the type of vile anti-Semitism so often found on sites like this probably doesn’t do much for getting Jews on our side either. How can you not get this?

    Which of my two points was wrong?

    • Replies: @DFH
    , @iffen
  92. @Swedish Family

    Perhaps unsurprisingly, in Sweden, both words are strictly verboten in polite society.

    Well, patriotism is mostly mentioned in Germany only when it’s distinguished from “bad” nationalism, it doesn’t have much of an existence of its own. Appeal to it is little more than a rhetorical ploy to control the debate (“let’s not have our patriotism ruined by those nasty extremists!”).

  93. @Dmitry

    I’d guess Kundera is the most famous Czech, if my knowledge is a representative sample.

    Yes, Beckow is wrong about Kundera’s popularity in the West (I don’t know about Czechia). He is also a terrific writer. One of the greats to be sure.

    Also, his prediction that no one will read Kafka in a few generations reminded me of the following lines from Martin Amis’ review of Don Quixote

    And it should be stressed that when a great book enters a period of dormancy in any particular age, then the age is the loser: the age is judged, as well as the book.

  94. Tyrion 2 says:
    @Swedish Family

    Opposite to how they describe it, every patriot should be a nationalist – love of country should mean you believe in it as a proper unit of political organisation. However not every nationalist need be a patriot. There’s no need for love of country to support a nation state.

  95. Dmitry says:
    @German_reader

    That is expected for a low quality newspaper article or something written by politicians.

    But this statement is signed by a few of the most famous writers in the world.

    With names including Pamuk or Llosa, whether to agree with their views or not, I would expected a precise, mature and elegantly written statement of their beliefs on the topic.

    You cannot deny, it is surprising to see “doggy whistle” allusion to conspiracy theories blaming Russia, for what they see as problems in the EU. It looks like it was copy-pasted from CNN, not from famous writers.

    Pamuk for example, is often in Russia, has honorary doctorates from Russian universities. He was recently winner of the Yasnaya Polyana prize for foreign literature, awarded by the Russian ministry of culture. He says he is delighted he is so popular in Russia.

    So you would expect he would have a complex and multi-faceted view, which would exclude signing articles with such a content.

    • Replies: @German_reader
  96. DFH says:
    @Tyrion 2

    I simply pointed out why they were disproportionately Jewish – they were selected as intellectuals

    This is false, as I showed earlier. 33% of European intellectuals, or 33% of European Nobel prize winners for literature, are not Jews. In fact about 5% of fellows in Britain are Jewish (according to Lynn’s paper) and Britain has a much larger proportion of Jews than any other European country except France.

    That is not “an apologetic”. Why are they mostly old? Mostly men? Is explaining those things making apologia?

    Yes it is and yes they would be. If a group of women were talking about some sort of negative male behaviour, and a man intervened to offer an alternative explanation more favourable to men, and especially if this man had engaged in this dozens of times before and almost exclusively in favour of men, that would certainly constitute pro-male apologetics.

    I then added that the type of vile anti-Semitism so often found on sites like this probably doesn’t do much for getting Jews on side either.

    Criticising Pakistanis raping children or blacks stabbing and robbing people probably doesn’t help get them on side either, yet it has to be done. Of course it is understandable why you’d view British nationalism through the lens of ‘what’s good with the Jews’.

    The “vile” obviously referred to the type of comments tbat riddle this site, and your repeated threats against my nationality (British) are an example of it.

    I haven’t ‘threatened’ anyone, I have simply expressed my belief that you are not British. Are ethnic Pakistanis or Jamaicans or Japanese British?

    I would bet everything that my life has been much better for British interests than yours.

    The only thing I know about you and your life is that you pop up whenever Jews are criticised to defend them.

    • Replies: @Tyrion 2
  97. Seeing Bernard-Henri Lévy’s name here made me dig out an old book of his, Public Enemies, a book of Lévy’s mail correspondence with novelist Michel Houellebecq in the spring of 2008 (so after Putin’s Munich speech but half a year before Lehman Brothers and the war in Georgia). It’s fascnating to see violently anti-Putin Lévy was already back then. I’ll come to his tirade in a moment, but let’s first have a look at Houellebecq’s warm feelings for Moscow.

    A few months ago, I had the pleasure of finding myself in Moscow with Frédéric Beigbeder (by accident; we were there for different reasons and didn’t plan to meet up). Twice we did sets as DJs in nightclubs full of the sumptuous blondes popularized by current affairs magazines. Twice Frédéric and I noticed the same thing: young Russians adore the Beatles, they react to their music immediately, they like it (whereas I’m sure they didn’t know the music before, they only discovered western music in the 1980s through groups like U2 and A-Ha). And not only do they like the Beatles, they like early Beatles, songs like “Ticket to Ride” and “Love Me Do.” The music, made eternal by their genius, their enthusiasm, their joie de vivre; the music of youth, of heading off on holiday (the music of economic growth, of full employment).

    Back in France, the magazines ran headlines about a new idea: economic decline. A very different atmosphere, obviously.

    The worst thing is, the ecologists are right. Of course, none of the problems facing humanity can be tackled without stabilizing the world population, without stabilizing energy consumption, without intelligently managing nonrenewable resources, without tackling climate change.

    And yet coming back to Western Europe I felt like I was coming back to the dead. Of course, life is hard, very hard in Russia, it is a violent life, but they live, they are filled with a desire to live that we have lost. And I wished I were young and Russian and, ecologically speaking, irresponsible.

    I also felt I needed idealism (a rarer commodity, I admit, in contemporary Russia). I wished I were part of a time when our heroes were Yuri Gagarin and the Beatles; when Louis de Funès made everyone in France laugh; when Jean Ferrat was adapting Aragon.

    • Replies: @German_reader
  98. iffen says:
    @Tyrion 2

    probably doesn’t do much for getting Jews on our side either

    Who is this “our side” of which you speak kemo sabe?

  99. peterAUS says:
    @Beckow

    It also creates a very volatile environment – and that’s what we have today.

    Oh yes…..

    People in a state of panic drop all rules and restraints.

    Yep.

    I am trying to imagine a coming world (maybe) where we deal with panicky elites, institutions, media and culture, all of them breathlessly trying to stop something that they have conjured up in their own minds (the 30’s!!!), unbound and increasingly scared.

    Yep.
    Two of us have “talked” about this a lot here. Don’t know about you but, at my age, I’d definitely prefer to focus on something else than the current TPTBs power play.
    “Cheerful” thought: positive/negative outcome, IMHO…….30/70. Even in positive I can see plenty of violence.

    Now what happens if the other side start panicking too?

    Other side being a nuclear power ? We know what.
    M.A.D.

  100. In a related article, the Guardian helpfully informs us that (my bold):

    The 800-word paean was drafted by the French philosopher Bernard-Henri Lévy.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jan/25/europe-coming-apart-before-our-eyes-say-30-top-intellectuals

    paean: A song of praise or thanksgiving; a shout or song of triumph, joy, or exultation. Also fig.: an expression of praise or admiration; a tribute (to something). [OED]

  101. @Dmitry

    With names including Pamuk or Llosa, whether to agree with their views or not, I would expected a precise, mature and elegantly written statement of their beliefs on the topic.

    I don’t know, is there any reason to believe that novelists are especially smart or have much insight in the workings of the world?

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  102. @Beckow

    I liked Kundera almost two decades ago, but I haven’t read him since, and I’m actually afraid to read him lest I find him much worse than when I was young.

  103. Continuing my previous post, here is Lévy’s reply to Houellebecq. I find this passage very revealing of what drives people like Lévy. Note, again, that this is written in the spring of 2008 (March 12), so at this point, Russia has basically been playing nice in the face of aggressive Western expansion. Yet …

    Unlike you, I have absolutely no desire to be Russian or to return to Russia.

    I used to love a certain idea of Russia.

    I loved and defended this idea of Russian culture, which in the 1970s and ’80s conjured up a whole hodgepodge, Solzhenitsyn and Sakharov, the Slavophiles and Europhiles, the disciples of Pushkin and those of Dostoyevsky, the dissidents on the right and the left and those who, in the words of the mathematician Leonid Plyushch,* belonged to neither of these camps but to the concentration camp and whose defense I was taking up while my father, in the episode I told you about, was signing (or rather, was not signing, deciding not to sign) his contracts with Gosplan’s† wood branch.

    Then there’s what Russia has become, what appeared when the breakdown of communism, its debacle—what a mountaineer like your father would call its “thaw” or “collapsing ice” (the real meaning of debacle)—revealed to it and the world the Russia of Putin, of the war in Chechnya, the Russia that assassinated Anna Politkovskaya* on the stairway in her building and that the same Anna Politkovskaya described in her wonderful book A Russian Diary, just before she was assassinated. It’s the Russia of the racist packs who, right in the center of Moscow, track down “nonethnic” Russians, the Russia that chased out the Chinese at Irkutsk, the Dagestanis at Rostov, the same Russia that persecutes those it called the Chernye, meaning the “swarthy” ones, the Russia that has the nerve to explain to the world that it has nothing to do with democracy and human rights since it has its own democracy, a special, local democracy that is quite unrelated to Western canons and rights. It’s the country of such specialties as its party, the Nashi, meaning “our own,” which, to call a spade a spade, is a Stalin-Hitler combo, the Russia that, incidentally, is giving new life to the anti-Semitic European pamphlets of the nineteenth and twentieth centuries, the same Russia that made a best seller out of a stupid List of Masked Jews, which lumps together Sakharov, Trotsky, de Gaulle, Sarkozy, and Yulia Tymoshenko, the mastermind behind the Orange Revolution in the Ukraine. It’s the Russia that—since you mentioned music—put on the cover of one of its popular magazines the singer Irina Allegrova dressed up as an SS camp guard, holding a ferocious hound on a lead. This Russia, which, apart from this kind of idiocy, believes in nothing at all, absolutely nothing, just the religion of the marketplace, consumption and brands. This Russia, which, the last time I went there, struck me as having had its culture erased and its brain washed, this Russia, whose most discouraging side, according to Anna Politkovskaya, to mention her yet again, was its amorphousness and passivity, the way it accepts, for example, that it hardly has any employment legislation left and that its workers are treated like dogs, the same Russia that leaves the nightclubs where you went to have a laugh and dance with Frédéric [Beigbeder] to rot in a terrifying poverty. In this Russia, no less than under communism, people are ready to betray their parents to steal a broom, a bowl, a badly screwed tap, or—as in Brecht’s Messingkauf Dialogues—bits of scrap iron at night from deserted building sites abandoned by oligarchs on the run or in prison … Not only does this Russia inspire no desire in me, it fills me with horror. I’d go so far as to say that it frightens me because I see in it a possible destiny for the late-capitalist societies. Once upon a time, during your postwar “glory days,” the middle class was terrorized by being told that Brezhnev’s communism was not an archaism restricted to distant societies but rather a picture of our own future. We were wrong: it was not communism but postcommunism, Putinism, that may be the testing ground for our future.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    , @songbird
    , @Beckow
  104. Tyrion 2 says:
    @DFH

    The only thing I know about you and your life is that you pop up whenever Jews are criticised to defend them.

    You know nothing at all then. I have comments all over this site criticising specific Jews and trends among Jews. I’m just not a monomaniac like you.

    0 out 27 EU are not Jews. You don’t care. 1 out of 3 signatories to a pointless and meandering letter than no one cares about are Jewish, and you go bezerk. This is weird.

    I haven’t ‘threatened’ anyone, I have simply expressed my belief that you are not British. Are ethnic Pakistanis or Jamaicans or Japanese British?

    Potentially, nationality is more than having specific ancestry. Just as being a good person is more than giving to charity.

    Also, your threat was clear.

    Criticising Pakistanis raping children or blacks stabbing and robbing people probably doesn’t help get them on side either, yet it has to be done.

    Very few people are turned off by the criticism of child rapists, but it seems that is not what you actually mean.

    Also, my point was not that you needed Jews on side. Jews are quite influential but far from decisive. I only argued that it was a bit rich for the many commenters on this site to write endless screeds of hate against Jews and then blame the Jees for not agreeing.with the screeds.

    Yes it is and yes they would be. If a group of women were talking about some sort of negative male behaviour, and a man intervened to offer an alternative explanation more favourable to men, and especially if this man had engaged in this dozens of times before and almost exclusively in favour of men, that would certainly constitute pro-male apologetics.

    You forget the concept of “truth”. What I wrote was true. Apologetics are not true.

    • Replies: @DFH
  105. @Swedish Family

    It’s fascnating to see violently anti-Putin Lévy was already back then.

    It’s probably just part of his milieu, those “new philosophers” are basically the French version of neoconservatives.
    The late Andre Glucksmann was really bad as well, big friend of the Chechnyans.

    • Replies: @Tyrion 2
    , @Anatoly Karlin
  106. Anonymous[200] • Disclaimer says:

    Fight for Europe – or the wreckers will destroy it

    False dichotomy for one.

    Why would Europe “be destroyed”. How? What kind of Europe would be destroyed? The present one? The one the Goodthinkers want to implement and lock in forever? The one which needs additional hordes of immigration and larger slumlands? The one which obeys US “recommendations” regarding policy? The one beholden to destructive Central Banks and unreal political mutants suffering from tax rebates, shuttling between Brussels, Luxembourg and Strasbourg by TGV?

    Right-wing Catholic Georges Bernanos wrote a (as they say, anti-semitic) book entitled “La Grande Peur des Bienpensants” (The Great Fear of the Goodthinkers) back in the 30s telling the bourgeoisie what he thought of them.

    It’s time for The Great Fear of the Goodthinkers II.

    How many of the signatories know about actual living? Rushdie? Applebaum? BHL? HAH.

    I found this for people who are into french:

    https://www.rivagedeboheme.fr/pages/politique/chronique-2015/la-grande-peur-des-bien-pensants.html

    • Replies: @Tyrion 2
  107. @utu

    Poland is apparently also going to host some kind of anti-Iran conference in February.
    Doesn’t look like the Poles have learned anything from the Bush era when they provided the CIA with torture facilities and participated in the Iraq war. Pretty pathetic that they’re embracing US neoconservative plans for the Mideast like that.

    • Replies: @Tyrion 2
  108. El Dato says:
    @Beckow

    I can always spot the kind of person who relates to Kundera (Moscow must be full of them). There is something unfinished and unserious about them, yet they are full of yearning for something. Kundera is an escapist and absurdist and he uses heavy eroticism as a distraction so readers don’t realise that the stories are mostly about nothing.

    I only read Kundera’s “The Joke” back in the Cold War. Can’t remember much but I don’t think there was sex.

    However, BHL’s early work “Le Diable en Tête” fits your description well. I don’t really remember much, but it was like Portnoy’s Complaints where the protagonist is also a terrorist trying to impress his (dead?) father. He gets his girlfriend killed.

  109. Tyrion 2 says:
    @German_reader

    Alain Finkielkraut was one of them too, but is also absolutely brilliant. Their views were diverse.

  110. Tyrion 2 says:
    @Anonymous

    the wreckers will destroy it

    The wreckers will wreck…literary dreck.

  111. Dmitry says:
    @Swedish Family

    . It’s the country of such specialties as its party, Nashi,

    Lol, I guess he has seen that Sveta from Ivanovo video..

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
  112. Tyrion 2 says:
    @German_reader

    Yeah, if only they were slavish to Iran…what could be more in Polish interests than refusing to criticise theocratic Persia?

    We’ll know the alt right has fully succeeded in its suicide attempt when it is full of praise for mad theocratic Iran, bankrupt grossly incompetent Venezuela and Best Korea. Oh, it already is? RIP, may something a bit less sophomore rise in its place.

    • Replies: @German_reader
  113. @Beckow

    I also liked Kafka back then, too.

  114. Dmitry says:
    @German_reader

    On one level, they have to be intelligent – to construct the coherent work of literature.

    Of course, your point is true – talented novelists and poets often (or even usually) have stupid political and social views.

  115. @Tyrion 2

    Yeah, if only they were slavish to Iran…what could be more in Polish interests than refusing to criticise theocratic Persia?

    lol, what genuine national interest has Poland in getting involved in regime change plans for Iran? Absolutely zero. They’re only doing this, because they’re slavishly sucking up to the US, due to their paranoid antagonism to both Germany and Russia.
    And personally I have little sympathy for Iran’s theocratic system, but that doesn’t mean starting another Mideast regime change project (and that’s what Bolton, Pompeo etc. want) will be anything but disastrous.

    • Replies: @Tyrion 2
    , @Tyrion 2
    , @utu
  116. songbird says:
    @Swedish Family

    “Stalin-Hitler combo” really makes me laugh.

    It is like he is approaching the threshold where he would fully realize that it is absurd to call Russians Hitler, but doesn’t quite cross it.

  117. Tyrion 2 says:
    @German_reader

    Aren’t we talking about allowing a conference?

    • Replies: @German_reader
  118. @Tyrion 2

    A conference which in all probability is intended to cast Iran as the solely responsible party for all problems in the Mideast and to forge a coalition against it. Under the pretext that Iran is developing nukes or whatever (after the Trump administration withdrew from the nuclear deal designed to prevent this).
    The Poles are bloody stupid if they let themselves get dragged into this.

    • Replies: @Tyrion 2
  119. Pericles says:
    @Hyperborean

    I thought this ‘patriot vs nationalist’ dichotomy by Macron was a one-time thing.

    I’m happy that we deplorables are now free to use patriotard on the deserving. And, of course, as true believers in the fatherland, ((Levy)) and the rest of this rogues gallery are first and foremost concerned with the fatherland’s adopted black sons.

  120. Tyrion 2 says:
    @German_reader

    Here’s another letter published in the Guardian. This time sort of praising Venezuela. The ardently anti-British Signatories include no Jews but it does include the member of British parliament who had a go at the English Chef, who specialises in (dismal) Italian food, Jamie Oliver, for daring to make person of colour food like jerk flavoured rice.

    Actually, one of the signatories, Dennis Skinner, is an alright sort of bloke, but bloody eccentric. Oh well.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jan/27/putting-venezuelas-crisis-and-us-intervention-in-historical-context

    • Replies: @DFH
    , @German_reader
  121. Tyrion 2 says:
    @German_reader

    They’re bloody stupid for allowing a conference in their country?

    Should they ban criticism of Iran?

    • Replies: @German_reader
  122. DFH says:
    @Tyrion 2

    0 out 27 EU are not Jews. You don’t care. 1 out of 3 signatories to a pointless and meandering letter than no one cares about are Jewish, and you go bezerk. This is weird.

    These are my comments which, in your opinion, are ‘going bezerk’

    Bernard Henri-Lévy
    Elfriede Jelinek
    Anne Applebaum
    David Grossman
    György Konrád
    Adam Michnik
    Ludmila Oulitskaïa (partial)
    Roberto Saviano
    Simon Schama

    9/30, for people who are interested in that sort of thing.

    Pure coincidence that Jews make up <0.1% of the European population and yet are 33% of an anti-nationalist letter

    Obviously the fact that 33% of those doing something harmful to my people come from an ethnic group which makes up <0.1% of the population is interesting and worth commenting on.

    Potentially, nationality is more than having specific ancestry. Just as being a good person is more than giving to charity.

    Obviously Somalis and Nigerians cannot be British. The fact you think otherwise shows that you are not really a British nationalist. The fact that ancestry is not a sufficient condition for belonging to a nation does not mean that it is not a necessary condition.

    Also, your threat was clear.

    Where? What is my alleged threat?

    Very few people are turned off by the criticism of child rapists, but it seems that is not what you actually mean.

    Pakistanis/Muslims absolutely do object to people mentioning rape gangs, and the same applies to blacks and people mentioning the level at which they commit crime and they reflexively spring to defend their group by saying that the statistics are made up or the stories are exaggerated or that its caused by poverty and racism by the police, a little like you do whenever Jews are criticised by claiming that it’s only because they are more intelligent.

    You forget the concept of “truth”. What I wrote was true. Apologetics are not true.

    What you wrote wasn’t true, since Jews make up only 10% of European Nobel Prize for Literature winners and even in Britain only about 5% of intellectuals, but a 33% of signatories to the letter were Jewish.

    But I’ve never heard anyone say that about apologetics or define apologetics like that anyway.

    • Replies: @Tyrion 2
  123. DFH says:
    @Tyrion 2

    But supporting Venezuela and opposing American intervention in foreign countries is not anti-British or anti-nationalist, so I don’t really understand your point.

    • Replies: @Tyrion 2
  124. Pericles says:

    I’m mildly surprised that Salman Rushdie signed up for this, given that he was chased out of his adopted home country by migrants. It seems difficult memories fade.

    Kundera made his career from being oppressed by Soviet migrants. But that was a long time ago and in a different country. Still in the EU, though.

    Orhan Pamuk writes from a core piece of Europe forcibly occupied by migrants since 1453. Perhaps they should give it back.

    All in all, not a good showing by the literati.

  125. @Tyrion 2

    I don’t give a fuck about Venezuela, nobody in continental Europe or in Britain who’s of sound mind should.
    Also hardly equivalent to promotion of the EU as a nation-dissolving project which directly affects the interests of Europeans.
    And for the record, I’m not one of those who think Jews are somehow behind every negative trend, imo it’s possible that even without any Jewish influence at all, Western countries would still be in their current predicament. However, it’s hard not to get the impression that Jews have been disproportionately prominent in crazy, vaguely universalist movements like communism or today’s antiracism. And it’s not even difficult to come up with plausible reasons why this might be so (e.g. the messianic strains of Jewish religion and culture or the traditional outsider status of Jews in Western civilization, which, to put it cruedely, might have resulted in certain anti-gentile tendencies). Your persistent refusal to even consider this question is rather tiresome.

    • Agree: iffen, DFH, reiner Tor
    • Replies: @Tyrion 2
  126. Tyrion 2 says:
    @DFH

    Obviously Somalis and Nigerians cannot be British. The fact you think otherwise shows that you are not really a British nationalist. The fact that ancestry is not a sufficient condition for belonging to a nation does not mean that it is not a necessary condition.

    It is a very substantial contribution but it is not necessary. On what basis do you claim otherwise?

    Obviously the fact that 33% of those doing something harmful to my people come from an ethnic group which makes up <0.1% of the population is interesting and worth commenting on.

    It isn’t harmful. It is an inarticulate and irrelevant letter. You also focussed on solely on the minority who were Jews. That was weird. There are other much stronger patterns.

    Where? What is my alleged threat?

    I think the threat to steal my nationality was explicit.

    Pakistanis/Muslims absolutely do object to people mentioning rape gangs, and the same applies to blacks and people mentioning the level at which they commit crime and they reflexively spring to defend their group by saying that the statistics are made up or the stories are exaggerated or that its caused by poverty and racism by the police, a little like you do whenever Jews are criticised by claiming that it’s only because they are more intelligent.

    Your description of my behaviour is an absurd reduction. It’d be weird if people who are massively overepresented among the Cosmopolitan intelligentsia were not overepresented in letters expressing that group’s opinions.

    On the other hand, “systemic” racism is just an empty conspiracy theory.

    Also, black people and Pakistanis are generally fine when I talk about stuff like that, but then perhaps it is because I am not foaming at the mouth when I do it? How else do you explain their difference in reaction?

    What you wrote wasn’t true, since Jews make up only 10% of European Nobel Prize for Literature winners and even in Britain only about 5% of intellectuals, but a 33% of signatories to the letter were Jewish.

    But I’ve never heard anyone say that about apologetics or define apologetics like that anyway

    Then you should try to understand words before you use them.

    What we have is that less than a of signatories to a pointless letter from “public intellectuals”. That is mildly interesting. It is more interesting that all are from major cities. It is even more interesting that half of economics Nobel prize winners are Jewish.

    Regardless, I can find similar letters signed by no Jews, but you’d just ignore those – confirmation bias sucks.

    • Replies: @DFH
  127. Tyrion 2 says:
    @DFH

    Why are all the signatories vociferously anti-British nationalist?

  128. utu says:
    @German_reader

    they’re slavishly sucking up to the US and do not forget, Israel.

  129. @Tyrion 2

    Should they ban criticism of Iran?

    Are you playing stupid or is this a serious question?
    There’s a difference between criticism of Iran (certainly legitimate) and providing the forum for an American administration which includes people like Bolton who seem intent on bringing about a military confrontation with Iran.
    Intent of hosting this conference in Poland is obviously to pretend that the US has significant international support for an aggressive Iran policy. Same shit as with “old” and “new Europe” during the Iraq war.

    • Replies: @Tyrion 2
  130. Tyrion 2 says:
    @German_reader

    I’ve never refused to consider that question. I have my entire comment history as proof. Stop lying. At some point I’ll assume your motivations are malicious.

  131. Tyrion 2 says:
    @German_reader

    You sound like Twitter and their banning policy. Only worse, because Twitter are giving up customers by doing so, meanwhile you’re advocating Poland give up customers in order to not offend a stupidly run and passively hostile country. Bizarre.

    • Replies: @German_reader
  132. @Tyrion 2

    You sound like Twitter and their banning policy.

    That’s idiotic.
    You’re either arguing in bad faith or intellectually incapable of discussion.
    In either case engaging with you seems like a waste of time.

    • Replies: @Tyrion 2
    , @iffen
  133. Tyrion 2 says:
    @German_reader

    You’ve made a number of accusations against me. All disproven by my comment history. Your subsequent throwing of your toys out of the pram are probably derived from that embarrassment. Nonetheless, your call for Poland to censor a conference to protect Iran’s feelings, or whatever, is actually a new low for you. Go away and re-consider if you want to remain actively stupid.

    • Replies: @German_reader
  134. DFH says:
    @Tyrion 2

    You also focussed on solely on the minority who were Jews. That was weird.

    Jews are about 0.1% of the European population and 33% of the signatories of the letter. How strange of me to point that out!

    I think the threat to steal my nationality was explicit.

    Lol, what does ‘stealing’ your nationality even mean?

    It’d be weird if people who are massively overepresented among the Cosmopolitan intelligentsia were not overepresented in letters expressing that group’s opinions.

    Since being a part of the cosmopolitan intelligensia means being rootless and anti-nationalist, I think you’re accepting my point about Jews here.

    Also, black people and Pakistanis are generally fine when I talk about stuff like that, but then perhaps it is because I am not foaming at the mouth when I do it? How else do you explain their difference in reaction?

    I have no idea what the reaction to you talking about it with them is, but that certainly isn’t how the representatives of blacks or pakistanis and organisations representing them react or how prominent blacks and pakistanis react.

    Then you should try to understand words before you use them.

    Where is a definition of apologetics according to which they have to be false? Obviously it isn’t part of the original definition, since that was coined by Christian theologians themselves as a name for their defences of Christianity, which they didn’t think were false.

    Regardless, I can find similar letters signed by no Jews, but you’d just ignore those

    Find me some anti-nationalist letters from Britain without any Jewish signatories then.

    • Replies: @Tyrion 2
  135. “We urge European patriots to resist the nationalist onslaught”

    what is this nonsensical sentence.

    i mean i know the entire article, the entire globalist agenda, is nonsense double talk, but that’s really a beauty of a sentence. leftists in the US would struggle to come up with something like that.

    “Fight for Europe or the wreckers will destroy it”. that’s impressive. the best the leftists in the US can do is “That’s not who we are”. still good, but not as good as the headlines of this article.

    invite the world, invade the world really captures the idea best, but wasn’t devised by leftists.

    • Replies: @Mitleser
  136. iffen says:
    @German_reader

    I think that you know a bit about me from our exchanges and enough to know that I am not anti-Semitic, but there is something a little off in the comment exchanges with monikers like Tyrion 2.

  137. @Tyrion 2

    Nonetheless, your call for Poland to censor a conference to protect Iran’s feelings, or whatever, is actually a new low for you

    You seem to want to frame this as a free speech issue, but this is absurdly inappropriate for an international diplomatic conference.
    Anyway, you seem like a rather disagreeable fellow, maybe you should seek help with anger management or something.

    • LOL: DFH
    • Troll: Tyrion 2
  138. @Tyrion 2

    Are you seriously trying to tell me you know what every single one of your fellow nationals are thinking and feeling towards DFH?
    You are either seriously deluded or perhaps possessed by demons if you believe that..
    You are afraid of people that do not fear or worship the zionists it seems.
    DFH is way closer to the truth then you and yes i am a anti zionist, BDS supporter and want the occupiers to leave Palestine AFTER they have paid for their crimes both economical and otherwise as judged by the oppressed people of Palestine, Lebanon, Syria etc etc.
    If that makes me a bad person in your deluded or possessed mind makes no difference to me, since your opinion of me is not vital to my happiness or life.
    If you truly believe you are a mind reader and can read the minds of entire countries i suggest you seek professional help asap btw!

    • Replies: @anonymous coward
  139. Mitleser says:
    @prime noticer

    It is one the same level as Soros’ attitude towards China.

    Last year I still believed that China ought to be more deeply embedded in the institutions of global governance, but since then Xi Jinping’s behavior has changed my opinion. My present view is that instead of waging a trade war with practically the whole world, the US should focus on China. Instead of letting ZTE and Huawei off lightly, it needs to crack down on them. If these companies came to dominate the 5G market, they would present an unacceptable security risk for the rest of the world.

    Regrettably, President Trump seems to be following a different course: make concessions to China and declare victory while renewing his attacks on US allies. This is liable to undermine the US policy objective of curbing China’s abuses and excesses.

    China is not the only authoritarian regime in the world but it is the wealthiest, strongest and technologically most advance. This makes Xi Jinping the most dangerous opponent of open societies. That’s why it’s so important to distinguish Xi Jinping’s policies from the aspirations of the Chinese people. The social credit system, if it became operational, would give Xi total control over the people. Since Xi is the most dangerous enemy of the open society, we must pin our hopes on the Chinese people, and especially on the business community and a political elite willing to uphold the Confucian tradition.

    https://www.georgesoros.com/2019/01/24/remarks-delivered-at-the-world-economic-forum-2/

    Is it in the interest of the Chinese people, their business community and political elite to crack down on their Chinese tech companies?

  140. Mr. XYZ says:
    @DFH

    Jelinek is only half-Jewish, correct?

  141. Mr. XYZ says:
    @DFH

    Were British Jews generally advocates of mass Third World immigration into Britain even before World War II?

  142. Beckow says:
    @Swedish Family

    The passage is very revealing. What drives BHL is a mental condition that could charitably be described as a maniacal hatred of ‘Russia‘. He projects most evil in the world on Russia – now and even in the future. He talks about having once ‘had a certain idea of Russia‘, he mixes in post-capitalism, poverty, racist fears, whatever. This is not a normal way to talk about anything, there is no balance.

    That level of emotional piling on is a sign that BHL has been fully consumed by his hatred of Russia. I don’t want to stir it up with some contributors here, but this mono-mania very much ressembles other historical anti-some group ideologies. What is disturbing is that a few dozen seemingly normal intellectuals signed-up with obviously unhinged BHL to put out this manifesto. It is spreading.

    I wonder if Russia is in denial and just hoping for the best when these emotional screeds and acts are promoted in the West. It looks like a build-up to something, and pretending that all is normal might look in retrospect foolish. I am for unconstrained free speech, and the likes of BHL can hate all they desire, but has West lost its grown-up level-headed population? One would expect an occasional reality check and it is happening less and less.

    • Agree: Anatoly Karlin
    • Replies: @Swedish Family
  143. utu says:

    The string ‘Tyrion 2’ pops up 98 times in the thread of 147 comments. Pretty effective fellow.

    • Replies: @Ender
    , @reiner Tor
  144. Mitleser says:

    Nietzsche spoke of the “gravediggers burying God” in The Gay Science. Today, we’ve become the “gravediggers of the European idea” instead. Is this conscious or unconscious self-parody? Are all these educated signatories aware that they’ve put “the European idea” in place of God?

  145. @Dmitry

    Lol, I guess he has seen that Sveta from Ivanovo video..

    People used to portray Nashi as some sort of Hitlerjugend. I remember watching (I don’t know if it was made before or after the Georgian invasion) a documentary about some wannabe dissident named Masha who ‘defected’ from Nashi.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  146. @Swedish Family

    Perhaps unsurprisingly, in Sweden, both words are strictly verboten in polite society.

    I rarely saw Swedish flags when I lived in Sweden, not even EU flags. I remember you live in Stockholm, is it different there?

    • Replies: @utu
  147. utu says:
    @Hyperborean

    I rarely saw Swedish flags – I saw them everywhere. Almost every house had one in the country in early 1980s.

    • Replies: @Anonymous lurker
  148. Dmitry says:
    @Hyperborean

    Lol “Putinjugend”. Even in countries like Norway, they have youth political camps. For example, the place which Breivik has attacked was a political youth summer camp of the Norwegian party of power.

    The “Nashi” summer camp, looked fun in a weird way – they had even concerts with Timati and Nyusha performing for them.

    Meanwhile, in the daily work, this Jewish girl (professional troll of Vladislav Surkov) Kristina Potupchik was managing their media activity and leading their online army, in amateurish ways even for 10 years ago (DDoS attacks to try to destroy the Kommersant website, etc).

    She had bags of money – presumably giving them to people who write favourable blog posts on livejournal and who attack online political opponents.
    The weird thing – the highest fee they paid, was to her friend, the opposition liberal blogger Varlamov.

    • Agree: Anatoly Karlin
    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
  149. @Per/Norway

    want the occupiers to leave Palestine

    Please don’t. Let’s keep them in their designated places. The world won’t survive another diaspora.

    • Replies: @Mr. XYZ
  150. Mr. XYZ says:
    @anonymous coward

    Won’t survive another Jewish diaspora or another diaspora in general?

  151. Anon 2 says:

    As far as I can tell, the vast majority of the signatories appear to be
    urban intellectuals, i.e., people who spend a disproportionate amount
    of time sitting in warm well-lit rooms staring at screens, writing, and
    talking. Is this something we’re supposed to admire? The highest ideal
    to aspire to?

    Consider these three great individuals: the Buddha, Socrates, and Jesus.
    None of them wrote books, none of them were rich (Buddha was born into
    wealth but rejected it), and none of them were famous (except locally)
    or sought fame during their lifetimes. Many people try to follow in the
    footsteps of the Buddha and/or Jesus. Hence they will sympathize with
    Thomas Aquinas, the founder of rational theology who married Christianity
    to Aristotle, who in 1273, after undergoing profound mystical experiences,
    said, “It’s all straw” (referring to his writings). Or with Terence McKenna,
    the American psychonaut who said “Culture is not your friend” or “Television
    is by nature the dominator drug par excellence” (not that I agree with him on
    everything).

    Perhaps countries such as China or India that are still trying to make
    the leap from the pre-modern to modern stage need more intellectuals
    but the West is now resolutely in the postmodern stage (Cf. Lyotard’s 1979
    definition, “I define postmodern as incredulity towards metanarratives),
    effectively marking the end of the Enlightenment Project and its
    universalistic claims. One thing the West doesn’t need is more
    intellectuals – the latter serve the interests of the materialistic
    ruling class (with their “Let them eat cake” attitude) anyway, not
    realizing that the people are increasingly disillusioned with science,
    technology, and modernity in general. Return to Europe’s pagan roots
    (albeit on a more sophisticated level where the gods and goddesses are
    interpreted as Jungian archetypes), and to localisms and regionalisms
    are some aspects of the growing populist rejection of the globalist
    elites. The intellect has failed us, and hence what we need more of is growth
    in awareness and in emotional intelligence. As always, following Aristotle and
    the Buddha (The Middle Way), everything in moderation – we need not
    reject the intellect completely but there is certainly no reason to worship it.

  152. Anon 2 says:
    @utu

    Netanyahu’s real name is Mileikowski. His father, like Ben-Gurion,
    was born and raised in Warsaw, then later changed his last name.
    Perhaps for that reason he feels some residual affinity for Poland,
    and for Central Europe in general. Poland, obviously, has a complex
    relationship with Israel and with the U.S. There are actually two Polands,
    one in Europe, and the second in the U.S. with its 10 million Polonian
    residents. One example: Tom Malinowski, born and raised in Poland,
    was recently elected to Congress from the state of New Jersey. Can
    the Germans, Russians, Czechs, etc claim such a close relationship
    to the United States? I doubt it.

  153. @Anon 2

    Can the Germans, Russians, Czechs, etc claim such a close relationship to the United States? I doubt it.


    I am amazed he got elected with such a name.

  154. Tyrion 2 says:
    @DFH

    Find me some anti-nationalist letters from Britain without any Jewish signatories then

    The most anti-nationalist force in the British parliament are the Lib Dems…zero Jewish MPs.

    Since being a part of the cosmopolitan intelligensia means being rootless and anti-nationalist, I think you’re accepting my point about Jews here.

    This is like the idiot SJW argument. Since being CEO of a multinational company (the lot of whom are disporportianately white men) means being a bottom-line focussed rich greedbag, I think you’re accepting the SJW point about white men here.

    Jews are about 0.1% of the European population and 33% of the signatories of the letter. How strange of me to point that out!

    How strange of you to ignore that since Jews seem to be about a third of public intellectuals, it’d be strange if they weren’t a third of signatories to this letter.

    • Replies: @DFH
  155. @utu

    Did he change most readers’ attitudes more or less pro-Jewish? Did he make them more or less anti-Jewish?

    • Replies: @iffen
  156. DFH says:
    @Tyrion 2

    The most anti-nationalist force in the British parliament are the Lib Dems…zero Jewish MPs.

    Well there are only 24/650 Jewish MPs and only 11 Lib Dem MPs, so that is still not very surprising.

    This is like the idiot SJW argument. Since being CEO of a multinational company (the lot of whom are disporportianately white men) means being a bottom-line focussed rich greedbag, I think you’re accepting the SJW point about white men here.

    ??????? You said that Jews were ‘massively overepresented among the Cosmopolitan intelligentsia’, who are obviously anti-nationalist and therefore confirmed that Jews are massively over-represented among anti-nationalists. I have no idea what this rambling about SJWs is supposed to mean.

    How strange of you to ignore that since Jews seem to be about a third of public intellectuals, it’d be strange if they weren’t a third of signatories to this letter.

    Jews are not a third of public intellectuals in Britain, let alone Europe as a whole, nor would you expect them to be given Jewish intelligence. You keep coming up with ad-hoc explanations, backed up by nothing, to explain away Jewish over-representation.

    • Replies: @Tyrion 2
  157. Tyrion 2 says:
    @DFH

    I’ll simplify this for you.

    Your first error is in sampling. You look for objectionable things and then only highlight them if a lot of the people involved are Jewish.

    Your second error is in fetishization of one characteristic, that is Judaism. If there is a correlation with Judaism, that becomes the cause to you even if there are other, better correlations.

    Your third is in your imposition of an a priori pattern of justice. If something is not equal then, regardless of the vissitudes and complications of the real world, you assume injustice or betrayal or badness.

    Your fourth is that you allocate only the most extreme position to anyone opposing you. When I give explanations for why things are, you immediately accuse me of an absolute position.

    Your fifth is that you argue in bad faith. Not just to me, but to yourself. When you make an unfounded accusation that my entire comment history disproves, you simply pretend/convince yourself that it didn’t happen.

    With those five intellectual vices, you can believe anything. Your position is entirely protected from reality.

    If you ponder them, and remove yourself from the picture, you will also understand the intellectual vices that lead to all forms of social justice warriordom. Then you can understand why I see you merely as a pale reflection of that.

    Sadly, I don’t think you’ll ever get to that point. And I cannot be bothered to wait. So, bye, enjoy being irrelevant and enjoy being the horror that globalists use to scare decent people away from nationalism. Just as the Evergreen students were the horror used by nationalists to scare decent people away from SJWism. You’re the enemy they want, and loving it. A tragic spectacle.

    • Replies: @Tyrion 2
  158. Epigon says:
    @Dmitry

    Who the fuck cares about Nobel prize in literature? What “cultural elite” of Europe? How can cultural elite of European nations be composed of chauvinist Middle Eastern fanatics with a penchant for dismantling unity and cohesiom of European nations? Culture and language are bedrocks of identity and nationalism, so a Jew can’t be a cultural elite of Europeans. Pure and simple.

    • Replies: @Swedish Family
  159. Usual & expected names (bad nationalism, bad). Kundera (sorry, but your time has expired), Levy, Rushdie, Jellinek, Ulickaja, McEwan, Vargas Llosa ….

    Glad I don’t see names of some people who I happen to like: Alain Finkielkraut, Ian Kershaw, Eric Zemmour, Ernst Nolte (some works), Sloterdijk (in some works), Norman Stone, Paul Johnson, Martin Walser, …

  160. utu says:
    @Anon 2

    Are you on mushrooms now or perhaps you are a real character from a Polish joke?

  161. melanf says:
    @Dmitry

    ll living European Nobel Prize winners except 3 signed the letter. So it’s you rather can see the cultural elite of Europe

    As one blogger noted, in hell, members of the Nobel Committee will be punished (for the garbage that was awarded) to read books of Nobel laureates.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  162. @Bardon Kaldian

    Ernst Nolte has been dead for over two years now. Is he getting better?

    • Replies: @Swedish Family
  163. @Hyperborean

    Though I think he was not the kind of guy to sign such leftist manifestos.

    • Replies: @German_reader
  164. @Hyperborean

    So, that’s why I haven’t heard of him lately…… Pity this is not 19th C & available spiritualist mediums are not worth the trouble.

  165. It is interesting to think about delusions. I think that most- not all, but most- of these signatories are not just corrupt; they truly believe in what they’ve signed.

    Literary types & popular historians. These types seem to be impervious to reason. Virtually all such people supported Stalin’s 1930ies show trials: Romain Rolland, Barbusse, G.B. Shaw, Beatrice & Sidney Webb, Remarque (I think), …

    Perhaps 30% of these people are of Jewish extraction, but I don’t think it is of primary importance. Celebrity writers & their high moral ground- I’ve noticed that trend long time ago. It started with Voltaire & the Calas case; then Zola & Dreyfus. Then Tolstoy with vegetarianism & pacifism; Sartre with his cartoon of Heidegger & Maoism (not cartoon).

    Paul Johnson wrote a readable, malicious & entertaining book on them (not addressing what is the most important issue here, the national question & collective identity):

    • Replies: @Yevardian
    , @AP
  166. Yevardian says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    They really aren’t though. How is making this (false) distinction different from ‘but it wasn’t “real Communism!’, exactly?

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  167. Yevardian says:
    @German_reader

    I’ve only read Kar (Snow), was a passable (if humorless like most Turkish literature) middlebrow novel, didn’t strike me as overly political or preachy. He frequently oversteps the line between ‘homage’ and outright lifting famous passages from other Turkish writers though.

  168. Yevardian says:
    @Bardon Kaldian

    Comparing Marx to Tolstoy and Sartre to Chomsky? A cursed boomer bestseller if I ever saw one.
    For that sort of cultural critique I’d strongly urge to try reading Theodore Dalrymple or David Stove instead.

    • Replies: @Bardon Kaldian
  169. @Yevardian

    You don’t know what you’re talking about. If a guy writes a book on, say, homosexuals, he can include Marcel Proust & Ernst Roehm, both of them. So what?

  170. @Anon 2

    Can
    the Germans,

    German-Americans are supposedly one of the largest white groups in the US.
    However they’ve been so thoroughly assimilated that indeed their influence on German-American relations isn’t that profound.
    As for Poland’s “close relationship” to the US (lol), imo Poles might come to regret it if it means involvement in a new Mideast misadventure.

    • Replies: @Anon 2
  171. @utu

    They still do. But emphasis on “house” here, many (most?) one-family houses with an accompanying lawn/garden patch has a flagpole and fly the flag every now and then (for birthdays, June 6th, Midsummer’s Eve etc).

    Many more constantly fly a “vimpel” which looks somewhat like an elongated, pointy Ukrainian flag. The reason being that the latter is exempt from the old “must be lowered before sunset” rule that applies to the proper flag, and people are lazy I guess.

    The immensely popular Swedish summer cottages tend to have a Swedish flag sticking out beside the front door or by the terrace if present, too. If you travel the countryside I’d wager 8/10 houses have one, often in combination with a stand-alone flagpole.

    You don’t see one at every apartment balcony though, unlike in say modern (Erdoganist?) Turkey. I was surprised by the apparent sheer nationalism on display last time I went there, though it is possible it had something to do with football or something else I don’t really follow.

  172. @Bardon Kaldian

    Apart from the fact that he’s dead, Ernst Nolte was ostracized during the last 30 years of his life, I doubt anybody would have wanted to sign him a statement of any kind.
    Ian Kershaw btw has spoken out against the dangerous new populists and nationalists, he doesn’t seem that different from the signatories of that manifesto. And Martin Walser has turned into a total Merkel fanboy in his old age.

    • Replies: @Bardon Kaldian
  173. @reiner Tor

    No, certainly not. I read his last book a few months ago (written when he was close to 90, but it was still quite perceptive about the contemporary world), and it was very clear that he didn’t approve of post-nationalism and mass immigration in general, and of Germany’s self-abolition in particular.

    • Replies: @utu
  174. @German_reader

    I don’t know about these nuances, but short & candid talk with anyone, centering on crucial issues, would be sufficient to ascertain whether we’re dealing with normal people or corrupt/delusional wackos.

  175. Tyrion 2 says:
    @Tyrion 2

    Those who are trying to use the JQ to form a political movement, whether they actually believe in this nonsense or not, face an impossible contradiction.

    On one hand, they want to represent the “natural aristocracy”.

    On the other hand, they want to build a movement of the have-nothing-to-lose life’s natural losers.

    They do this because they want to represent white bourgeois values but also copy the progressives’ successful tactics.

    Of course, that is trying to play tennis with a baseball bat. It doesn’t work.

    Instead, they should be taking the Apollonian path of relentless appeals to order, logic and decency. This would make them a movement people aspire to.

    Sadly, those of fundamentally unsound stock make the most noise and somehow the progressives get, not only to be the identity Stalinist/biological Leninist grouping, but also the to be aspired to polite decent people.

    Who the heck aspires to be someone who constantly rants about “the Jews”? Who honestly believes that decent white people will rally, en masse, around a movement of self-designated dregs and pariahs?

    People say Trump won because he wasn’t afraid to get dirty, but Trump is also the, whether you like it or not, symbol of American aspiration and has been for decades. That’s not a coincidence.

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
  176. iffen says:
    @reiner Tor

    I think that the question should be has he had any effect on the attitude of commenters here towards Jews? Perhaps I missed it, but I haven’t noticed anyone speaking up.

    My assessment of him and his comments have changed.

    In comment # 137 GR says:

    That’s idiotic.
    You’re either arguing in bad faith or intellectually incapable of discussion.
    In either case engaging with you seems like a waste of time.

    In comment #164 Ty re-packages this comment and applies it to DFH:

    Your fifth is that you argue in bad faith … And I cannot be bothered to wait. So, bye, ….

    I am aware that I can go off on non-productive tangents sometimes, but I really find this and a lot of the comments in the thread peculiar.

    • Replies: @German_reader
  177. @iffen

    but I really find this and a lot of the comments in the thread peculiar.

    Maybe he’s some kind of bot, might explain why many of his “arguments” are so nonsensical.

    • Replies: @Tyrion 2
    , @iffen
  178. @Tyrion 2

    Instead, they should be taking the Apollonian path of relentless appeals to order, logic and decency. This would make them a movement people aspire to.

    Order, logic and decency hasn’t won a single significant battle for generations, in fact they have often been the ones most vociferously urging continual retreat.

    I think Utu is right in that communitarian, emotional, vicious fascism is the way forward.

    • Replies: @German_reader
    , @utu
  179. @Hyperborean

    communitarian, emotional, vicious fascism

    That could easily get out of control though, and in the end you might be led (whether you want it or not) by fanatics with a flawed personality profile. It’s not like there aren’t precedents for that.
    Mainstream “conservative” parties throughout the west have clearly failed though, their continual treason and backstabbing (always punching solely to the right) is appalling.

  180. @German_reader

    That could easily get out of control though, and in the end you might be led (whether you want it or not) by fanatics with a flawed personality profile. It’s not like there aren’t precedents for that.

    I remember some American alt-right writers were joking in an interview that they would have achieved their aim when they were executed by the new government for being ‘too leftist’.

    I think it is hard to avert the course that has been now, and it might have been predestined by decisions set in place years ago. What is to be determined is what is left after the deluge.

  181. Tyrion 2 says:
    @German_reader

    Either you’re dumb or playing dumb to the crowd because you think they’re even dumber.

    It has been tragic watching the dissident right spiral down into corrupted untermenschian bile in the bizarrely deluded hope of success through stupidity.

    • Replies: @German_reader
  182. utu says:
    @German_reader

    Germany needs people like Nolte.

    • Replies: @German_reader
  183. Tyrion 2 says:
    @German_reader

    It would help if those to the right of them didn’t self-identity as “vicious fascists”.

    • Replies: @neutral
  184. AP says:
    @Bardon Kaldian

    Thanks for the recommendation.

  185. @Tyrion 2

    It has been tragic watching the dissident right spiral down into corrupted untermenschian bile in the bizarrely deluded hope of success through stupidity.

    That sounds very bot-like, are you just stringing random words together?
    Don’t really see your point, it’s not like I advocated for a political movement based on antisemitism (that would indeed probably be not a good idea).
    Hard not to get the impression that you enjoy pointless internet fights (iirc over on Sailer’s blog you even exchanged insults with commenter “Twinkie” who can hardly be accused of being a white nationalist). I don’t have time for that, so unless you’ve got something substantial to add, I’ll end this exchange here.

    • Troll: Tyrion 2
  186. neutral says:
    @Tyrion 2

    No it would help if they worked for the interests for their own kind as opposed always seeking to please jews first.

  187. @utu

    I agree, but I don’t see them anywhere. Nolte’s fate (becoming an unperson with zero influence in mainstream discussions) wasn’t exactly encouraging. And the general situation has become a lot worse since the 1980s.

  188. utu says:
    @Anonymous lurker

    Thanks for confirming that my memories were accurate. When I was there I was really struck by it because I did not see anything on a similar scale anywhere in the continental Europe. To me it was kind of funny or even ridiculous because who was the target of their signaling and reminders that they were in Sweden. In my mind you show your flag to foreigners to identify yourself but in your own country you do not have to do it. Personally, I am irritated by omnipresent flags in America . It rubs me wrong way but I can understand it more in America because their identity is constructed, it might be more insecure so they need to remind themselves they are Americans and assure everybody around that they are loyal Americans. But otoh you can fly other flags too.

    “must be lowered before sunset” – I think it can stay up if it is illuminated (I just looked up some Swedish site on it.)

  189. @Anonymous lurker

    The reason being that the latter is exempt from the old “must be lowered before sunset” rule that applies to the proper flag, and people are lazy I guess.

    This rule exists in Denmark as well.

    They still do. But emphasis on “house” here, many (most?) one-family houses with an accompanying lawn/garden patch has a flagpole and fly the flag every now and then (for birthdays, June 6th, Midsummer’s Eve etc).

    […]

    The immensely popular Swedish summer cottages tend to have a Swedish flag sticking out beside the front door or by the terrace if present, too. If you travel the countryside I’d wager 8/10 houses have one, often in combination with a stand-alone flagpole.

    […]

    You don’t see one at every apartment balcony though, unlike in say modern (Erdoganist?) Turkey.

    Okay, so it must have been my urban environment then.

    • Replies: @German_reader
  190. @Hyperborean

    This rule exists in Denmark as well.

    What’s the point of that rule? Reinforcing Scandinavian conformism?

    • Replies: @songbird
    , @Hyperborean
    , @utu
  191. songbird says:
    @German_reader

    Technically, it exists in the US as well. I believe you are supposed to take it down in bad weather. It is etiquette, but it is not something people tend to do.

    There’s a long list about how you are supposed to treat the flag. I was at a military funeral the other day. It was raining and the flag was covered in plastic. It was folded with great precision, at the end.

    I imagine as a German, this is stuff you never heard. I mean judging by Merkel treating it like it was a burning, dirty diaper.

    • Replies: @German_reader
  192. songbird says:
    @German_reader

    It may be banal to say so, but punching to the right, which both the left and right continuously do is an obvious selection process. It leads to a 100% foreseeable result, which is that society moves more to the left.

    I think it may even be a natural consequence of biology. The left is obviously more hive-minded, while the right is more individualistic. Ergo it is easier to punch right. This may be the fundamental flaw of our political system.

    Some say that the Great Wall of China caused the barbarians to descend on Rome. Maybe, that’s an analogy for modern day politics. With the mass of pols, like the mass of barbarians, finding one way blocked, and so pushing themselves and each other towards the other direction, to the distress of civilization.

  193. @German_reader

    What’s the point of that rule? Reinforcing Scandinavian conformism?

    I don’t know, no one ever told me and I never bothered to wonder why (I suppose I prove the point, lol). At least in Denmark, there are also other rules like the flag must never touch the ground and (IIRC) it should be folded in a certain manner.

    I have never actually done any flag raising, it is just part of what I am told about.

  194. @songbird

    I believe you are supposed to take it down in bad weather.

    That seems kind of logical if the point is to avoid harm to the flag as a national symbol. I don’t quite get though why it would be wrong to keep it up at night.

    It is etiquette, but it is not something people tend to do.

    Swedes of course have a law about it, and then scrupulously comply with it. Lol, even worse than Germans.

    I imagine as a German, this is stuff you never heard.

    Only time one ever really sees much of the German flag is international football matches (world cup etc.). Yes, apart from that it’s not that common for private citizens to fly it (though occasionally one does see it).

  195. Mitleser says:
    @utu

    In my mind you show your flag to foreigners to identify yourself but in your own country you do not have to do it.

    It rubs me wrong way but I can understand it more in America because their identity is constructed, it might be more insecure so they need to remind themselves they are Americans and assure everybody around that they are loyal Americans.

    • Replies: @utu
  196. @songbird

    Some say that the Great Wall of China caused the barbarians to descend on Rome. Maybe, that’s an analogy for modern day politics. With the mass of pols, like the mass of barbarians, finding one way blocked, and so pushing themselves and each other towards the other direction, to the distress of civilization.

    I am fond of Konstantin Cafavy’s Waiting for the Barbarians:

    What are we waiting for, assembled in the forum?

    The barbarians are due here today.

    Why isn’t anything going on in the senate?
    Why are the senators sitting there without legislating?

    Because the barbarians are coming today.
    What’s the point of senators making laws now?
    Once the barbarians are here, they’ll do the legislating.

    Why did our emperor get up so early,
    and why is he sitting enthroned at the city’s main gate,
    in state, wearing the crown?

    Because the barbarians are coming today
    and the emperor’s waiting to receive their leader.
    He’s even got a scroll to give him,
    loaded with titles, with imposing names.

    Why have our two consuls and praetors come out today
    wearing their embroidered, their scarlet togas?
    Why have they put on bracelets with so many amethysts,
    rings sparkling with magnificent emeralds?
    Why are they carrying elegant canes
    beautifully worked in silver and gold?

    Because the barbarians are coming today
    and things like that dazzle the barbarians.

    Why don’t our distinguished orators turn up as usual
    to make their speeches, say what they have to say?

    Because the barbarians are coming today
    and they’re bored by rhetoric and public speaking.

    Why this sudden bewilderment, this confusion?
    (How serious people’s faces have become.)
    Why are the streets and squares emptying so rapidly,
    everyone going home lost in thought?

    Because night has fallen and the barbarians haven’t come.
    And some of our men just in from the border say
    there are no barbarians any longer.

    Now what’s going to happen to us without barbarians?
    Those people were a kind of solution.

    While some just look at it as a simple tale of Romans facing invaders, I think if one looks at the hints it becomes clear that the Romans have already been replaced.

  197. @songbird

    It may be banal to say so, but punching to the right, which both the left and right continuously do is an obvious selection process. It leads to a 100% foreseeable result, which is that society moves more to the left.

    Yes, and that needs to end, so concern-trolling of the kind shown by Tyrion2 above (“It’s no wonder you’re not regarded as respectable when you don’t disavow all those nasty racists!”) has to be rejected. It’s still true that any political movement needs to set boundaries, one can’t just accept every crank who wants to promote his pet obsessions; but one should never accept the framing of debate set by one’s political opponents.

  198. @Hyperborean

    I think if one looks at the hints it becomes clear that the Romans have already been replaced.

    How so, what are the reasons for that interpretation?

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
  199. @utu

    I’m guilty as hell of this over-the-top flag waving too, I must admit. I even have one on the outhouse, which may or may not actually disgrace the flag, I don’t know.

    It’s just a borderline compulsory ornament hereabouts. I think it might actually have become more popular over the past few decades, as it’s one of the few forms of everyday “nationalism” that are permittable these days (unless there is a sports event going on, of course).

    There are some real serious efforts from “above” to turn the flag into a symbol of modern multiculture though. Like the aforementioned June 6th, which wasn’t celebrated much at all some fiften-twenty years ago (wasn’t even a non-working holiday until 2005 IIRC) but which is now heavily endorsed by state media and the political elite, with almost as much resultant flag-waving as on May 17th in Norway.

    The difference is that apart from a few token traditional things (the King talks, there are some Royal Guards parading, and you might even spot a fiddler or accordionist wearing 19th century folk clothes), it’s all about LGBT rights and Somalian dancing and stuff.

    Not my cup of tea, that whole shebang. I do enjoy sitting in my summer garden under the lilacs with a beer, watching the flag on the outhouse waving in the wind, though.

    • Replies: @utu
  200. songbird says:
    @utu

    To me, the flag used to be meaningful, but after 9/11 people started to put it up to use it to virtue signal support for the government or that they were against terrorism. And by now, the government has successfully subverted it, partly through mass immigration, to the point where it has close to no meaningful value.

    When I was a boy, we hung it up at a cottage in the countryside and an old vet walking down the street saluted it, even though he was about a 100 feet away, and it was a very sparsely populated place. I don’t think anyone would do that today.

    IMO, that is why they attacked the Confederate flag. Because the feds could not fly it, but it represented originalist values. All that is left is the Gadsden Flag, but flying a snake isn’t the same thing. They also take note of you, if you do.

    • Agree: utu
  201. utu says:
    @Hyperborean

    I would not use the word vicious. This adjective (an epithet) comes form the left. For Stalinists it was a favorite invective against enemies. It lost meaning. Fascism, at least the one practiced in Italy and Spain, was not vicious. Yes, bad things happened in Spain but it was because of the usual tit for tat you get in any civil war.

    The reason fascism or let’s call it populism might be appealing is because it is communitarian and it has a very strong leftist streak of protecting workers rights, benefits and protecting family. It would appeal to all those people who used to have leftist orientation who feel betrayed by the new left of LBGTI and race identity persuasion. The new left abandoned traditional leftist program and replaced it with the cultural Marxism. The gap they created can be filled by populist. The populism could heal the society and eliminate the vicious polarization brought by the new left. Populism does not have to be racists or chauvinist. It is about making your country strong and prosperous on behalf of people not on behalf of international corporations and some imperial fantasies. Economically it is anti-neoliberal. It must be to be anti-globalist. The powers that be keep warning everybody about the dangers of populism because they know that populism has a chance. Populism is their greatest threat. But populism will not happen w/o elements of leftist program. That’s why TPTB want their opposition to be libertarian and/or racist. They want Steve Sailer to keep peddling his minor gospels.

    As far as the immigration the message should concentrate on jobs and quality of life and culture not IQ and race. Growing economy by bringing cheap labor (whether blue collar Mexicans or IT Hindus) does not serve people. It only serves the rich.

    As far as Jews, Jews were OK with Mussolini. Many Jews belonged to fascist party. Zionists emulated Italian fascism (Jabotinsky) and collaborated with Mussolini. So even Tyrion 2 might like it though it would be preferable if he was doing his ethnic activism in Israel not UK. Dmitri would like it if he abandoned his cosmopolitan tendencies. He also has an option to go to Israel. However there would be frictions with Jews. Populist movement will be anti-neoliberal. Its enemy will be the international financial system which means also the Jewish banksters. But people need an enemy. Populist movement like any other movement to succeed needs an enemy. Bankers are the enemy of the people. People should be taught to believe it which would be easy because it is true.

  202. @German_reader

    No legislation, because barbarians do not need legislation.

    The Emperor got up early because he just conquered the city and is celebrating his victory at the main gate.

    He appoints himself fancy titles because the barbarians are impressed by the glory of the place they conquered (Odoacer becoming King of Italy).

    The consuls and praetors wear fancy clothes and jewellery because those are the behaviour of the barbarians.

    Because the barbarians are coming today
    and they’re bored by rhetoric and public speaking.

    This mixes the tenses. How can the Romans know, unless the barbarians are already there?

    People are bewildered over the conquest and realise the seriousness of the situation. Depopulation occurs while people wonder how it could have happened.

    Because night has fallen and the barbarians haven’t come.
    And some of our men just in from the border say
    there are no barbarians any longer.

    But I think this is the strongest evidence. Some of ‘our’ men ‘just in from the border’ claim barbarians no longer exist. Why? How could they suddenly disappear? The reason: because they don’t consider themselves barbarians.

    Although, stating that Romans have already been replaced is perhaps a bit strong. Merely that there is no longer any distinction between Roman culture and barbarian culture.

    • Replies: @German_reader
  203. iffen says:
    @German_reader

    why many of his “arguments” are so nonsensical.

    Is naming the Jews in the news per se anti-Semitic?

    Is supporting BDS per se anti-Semitic?

    My answer is no.

    But one can’t get around the fact that the majority, and certainly the most enthusiastic, supporters of both give many indications of being anti-Semitic.

    Framing the question solely in terms of free speech elides the political ramifications.

    • Replies: @German_reader
  204. @Hyperborean

    No legislation, because barbarians do not need legislation.

    But the real barbarians to some extent continued Roman legislation, e.g. much of what we still have of the Codex Theodosianus comes from this:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breviary_of_Alaric
    Also the numerous law codes for barbarian peoples (clearly in imitation of Roman models). So the point is rather imo that the barbarians are going to take over legislation.

    He appoints himself fancy titles because the barbarians are impressed by the glory of the place they conquered

    I think that’s a misinterpretation, “loaded with titles” refers to the scroll that is to be given to the barbarian leaders. Barbarian leaders often sought imperial service and some kind of official Roman title, e.g. iirc Alaric was magister militum at some point.

    Although, stating that Romans have already been replaced is perhaps a bit strong. Merely that there is no longer any distinction between Roman culture and barbarian culture.

    Yes, maybe the ending could be interpreted like that (dissolution of the boundary between civilized and barbarian?), I admit I find it quite enigmatic.

  205. Beckow says:
    @Hyperborean

    One way to look at Cafavy’s poem (I like it a lot) is that it describes a society that has reached a post-history stage. No ideology, no action or ambition, can even pretend to fix anything. There are no solutions because everything has been tried and found wanting. All that is left is a violent reset to restart the process.

    It is a historical analogy to Wittgenstein’s climb up a tree, ever higher to ever thinner branches, until at the end he is stuck on the thinnest, most remote small branch, with no way forward or back. At that point all that is left is to saw off the branch.

    We are not there, yet. What we see are that large groups have accepted the usual combination of ennui and greed and are consciously or absent-mindedly pushing our societies toward dissolution. Either bring in the barbarians or – even more crazy – let’s have a ‘revolution‘. The more unhinged among them connect the two.

    They are driven by determinism of their own making. I am always struck by their last refuge when they lose an argument (they always lose) – ‘it is inevitable‘, ‘the mish-mash global utopia is here to stay, make the best out of it‘. There is an abandonment of free will. People abandon free will when all choices seem like they would make things worse.

  206. @iffen

    But one can’t get around the fact that the majority, and certainly the most enthusiastic, supporters of both give many indications of being anti-Semitic.

    Well sure, that may be true (I noticed with some dismay yesterday that Giraldi has apparently embraced “Holocaust revisionism” now as well…), but I don’t think that was what I was discussing with Tyrion2.
    The “free speech” reference was solely regarding the planned Mideast conference in Poland, because I found Tyrion’s arguments so ridiculous (Why would Poland refuse “customers”, just not to hurt Iran’s feelings…that sounds as if Poland was some conference centre and it was about some private conference, totally missing the point imo).

    • Replies: @iffen
  207. utu says:
    @German_reader

    What’s the point of that rule?

    Lighten up. The rules are for military and Boy Scouts. Garrison Keillor touches on this issue when destroying Bernard-Henri Lévy’s pretentious book on America:

    https://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/29/books/review/on-the-road-avec-m-levy.html
    But every 10 pages or so, Lévy walks into a wall. About Old Glory, for example. Someone has told him about the rules for proper handling of the flag, and from these (the flag must not be allowed to touch the ground, must be disposed of by burning) he has invented an American flag fetish, a national obsession, a cult of flag worship. Somebody forgot to tell him that to those of us not currently enrolled in the Boy Scouts, these rules aren’t a big part of everyday life.

  208. utu says:
    @Anonymous lurker

    Perhaps I should have told you that my other reaction to the flags when I was in Sweden in 1980s was some admiration that they were proud of being Swedish and of Sweden that they normalized ‘flag waving’ to the point it was not a big deal anymore.

  209. @utu

    Zionists emulated Italian fascism (Jabotinsky) and collaborated with Mussolini.

    Although it is a bit of an academic point, I think the radical Zionists were more influenced by the German-speaking nationalist millieu they experienced for a long time than Italian Fascism, given that there were already some Jewish proto-fascists by the turn of the century.

    I.e. Max Nordau’s attempts to restore Jewish masculinity and pride by focusing on fitness (an amusing parallel to today) and Martin Buber, before he became a liberal, could write things like ‘the deepest layers of our being are determined by blood’ in the pre-WWI Era.

    • Replies: @utu
  210. @utu

    As far as the immigration the message should concentrate on jobs and quality of life and culture not IQ and race

    Focusing solely on economics is a dead end imo, at this stage one can’t dodge the identitarian question anymore, at least in Europe one has to clearly state that turning native Europeans into minorities in their homelands is unacceptable (no idea how Americans are supposed to deal with their problems, I can’t comment on that). And distinguishing between race/ethnicity and culture is pretty artificial imo, in the end you’ll just end up with another debate about “values”.
    The IQ stuff is almost non-existent in public debate anyway and likely to remain marginal, but it could still be useful to counter economic arguments for mass immigration like the supposed need for skilled workers.

    • Replies: @utu
  211. iffen says:
    @German_reader

    I don’t think you can deny that there’s special enthusiasm among many Jews for seeing the EU as an anti-national project …

    Ty counters with the argument that it’s because they are over-represented in the cosmopolitan highly educated elite, not because they are Jewish. This just begs the question. Non-Jewish highly educated elite are not over-represented vis-à-vis their “group.” If 10% of non-Jewish elite are visibly anti-nationalist, but 30% of Jewish elite are visibly anti-nationalist the difference can be reasonably attributed to “Jewishness.” (Made up numbers)

    • Replies: @utu
  212. utu says:
    @Hyperborean

    Jewish proto-fascists

    Judaism is fascist.

    ‘the deepest layers of our being are determined by blood’

    It originally came form Judaism so it precedes National Socialist. The Chosen Race concept, obsession with purity, purity of blood, monolatry in German National Socialism were copied from Judaism.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betar_Naval_Academy
    Italy was a source of ideological, historical and cultural inspiration for the Zionist Revisionists of the 1920s and 1930s.[3] The country under Mussolini was seen as a historical reminder of the roots of the Jewish people and as a contemporary example of a once glorious culture reclaiming its role in the world through the affirmation of power and national pride.

    Jabotinsky had been scheduled to meet Benito Mussolini as early as 1922, but for various reasons the meeting did not take place. However, in a letter to Mussolini, Jabotinsky attempted to win his support for the Zionist cause by arguing that for cultural reasons Italy’s pro-Arab policy was misguided.[5] Jabotinsky predicted that Italy and the Arabs would inevitably come into conflict and that a Jewish state in the Middle East could act as a buffer between Europe, Asia and Africa

  213. utu says:
    @German_reader

    I tried to come up with what may work and which will not tempt drastic solutions because I do not have stomach for them. But you reject it and apparently opt for the drastic solutions. I did not know you had Hitler in you. You were so coy for so long. Finally it came to the surface. Another final solution. Anyway, you are wrong, mein Führer. Hitler would get nowhere just on vilification of Jews. Economy and culture must be the main thrust of anti-immigrant propaganda.

    As far as the US, I think, it is done for. But Europe can be salvaged. When Europe will be saving itself her greatest obstacle and enemy will be America.

    • Replies: @German_reader
  214. utu says:
    @iffen

    Ty counters with the argument that it’s because they are over-represented in the cosmopolitan highly educated elite, not because they are Jewish.

    Actually this template was used by weasels like you before to absolve Jews of Bolshevism. Whatever they did it was not because they were Jewish, right?

    Could we use this brilliant template to absolve Jews for deeds of Israel as well because it happened that Jews are over-represented among Zionists?

    Jews are the only ethnic group that when they leave home for work or wherever they go they cease to be Jewish and their ethnicity does not play any role whatsoever in their actions. Another proof of Jewish uniqueness and genius.

    Can you see from your cubicle Tyrion 2? Is he working now?

    • Replies: @iffen
  215. utu says:
    @Mitleser

    Turks have a very thin skin.

  216. @utu

    But you reject it and apparently opt for the drastic solutions. I did not know you had Hitler in you. You were so coy for so long.

    Some kind of “drastic solution” is inevitably necessary at this point. Circumstances certainly vary from country to country. In Germany I wouldn’t advocate for measures against the established Turks or anything like racial laws against citizens. But all the Syrians, Afghans, Eritreans etc. who have come in the last few years need to be sent back, and the right to asylum needs to be abolished, otherwise Germany is finished (it’s of course unlikely that this will happen, since the majority of my countrymen are fools). There is no point in arguing for anything less, because it would only mean a slight delay to national suicide or mean one eventually would have to resort to more extreme measures to reverse course.
    And I didn’t say one should do without economic arguments, but they aren’t sufficient imo. I don’t know what you mean by “culture”, imo that overlaps to a considerable extent with ethnicity and can’t be cleanly separated, and the left/centrists will accuse you of “racism” anyway, because they claim that “culture” is merely a proxy for “race” (they already have concepts like “culturalism”, “racism without races”, Islamophobia etc., this is already reality).

    • Replies: @utu
  217. utu says:
    @German_reader

    Your first stage objective is : (1) moratorium on immigration and (2) suspension of naturalization procedures. The latter could be done administratively and quietly. This may happen if populist movement gains some foothold in politics. I believe that much bigger chance for the populist movement to get a traction is by talking about immigration in terms of economic issues, wages and so on and not in terms of xenophobia. Once the populists have power they can proceed to the stage two of expulsion of those who are non citizens. They could pass a law on social parasitism and un-assimilability of resident aliens…

    • Replies: @German_reader
    , @AaronB
  218. @utu

    by talking about immigration in terms of economic issues, wages and so on and not in terms of xenophobia

    You need to do both imo, economic issues are important (not only undercutting of wages, but also issues like disproportionate welfare dependency of certain immigrant groups), but cultural issues are important as well, they have much greater resonance than solely appealing to economic interests.
    In Germany this means primarily two things right now:
    1.) Pointing out that mass immigration by Muslims inevitably leads to Islamicization (which is highly undesirable given the retrograde views of many Muslims).
    2.) Pointing out that many “refugees” have been socialized in violent and archaic (that is primitive) cultures, and that efforts at re-educating them are likely to be futile (and a waste of taxpayers’ money). If Somalis and Afghans have an unfortunate penchant for stabbings, gang rapes and similar crimes, they need to be kept out, in the best interest of law-abiding citizens (including those of migrant background).

    “Xenophobia” imo is only problematic, when it comes across as vulgar and not based on facts. But one has shift the Overton window and try to normalize the idea that not everybody is the same and that at least some groups of foreigners are extremely undesirable as immigrants.
    I partially agree with you that explicit focus on race (seen as inhumane by most people at least in its more extreme manifestations) or the IQ issue (obscure to most people) isn’t likely to be successful. But one can’t and shouldn’t avoid issues of identity and ethnicity completely imo.

    • Replies: @songbird
    , @iffen
    , @Beckow
  219. songbird says:
    @Hyperborean

    That’s an interesting poem. I had not heard it before.

    I’m still hoping for DNA evidence of what happened. Might be that people were getting dumber, even without admixture.

    That seems to be happening now. The Flynn effect has peaked and started to reverse, even in real Europeans. And that is certainly an interesting phenomenon, as others like Cochran have pointed out, because to acknowledge it means that you are acknowledging that selection pressures can shape IQ. And if that happens on a small time scale, how much more likely is it that it has happened on a large time scale between different groups, living in different locations?

    Of course, the answer is obvious, but many people still deflect it, but I think that idea of a built-in collapse really forces the issue. Some day sooner or later, there will be a state that acknowledges IQ. And it might be really powerful compared to all the ones that don’t.

  220. iffen says:
    @utu

    Actually this template was used by weasels like you before to absolve Jews of Bolshevism. Whatever they did it was not because they were Jewish, right?

    Apparently the difference between absolution and explanation is beyond your grasp.

    FWIW, I don’t believe Jews or anyone else need absolution for political views or ideology. In my younger years I leaned toward socialism, Marxism and Bolshevism. I still consider myself a leftist with regards to economic policy. In any case, if I had to choose between your anti-Semitic fascism and Bolshevism, I wouldn’t even have to think about it, comrade.

  221. songbird says:
    @German_reader

    Xenophobia is such a strange word, in the way it is used today. It seems to bear no similarity to what I would consider its natural meaning: fear of foreign visitors, rather than foreign invaders.

    I don’t think it is a word that fits much with modern European history. To be sure, nations had their antipathies and sometimes these were manifested in prejudices, but mostly between powers. I wouldn’t even consider the Nazis to be xenophobic. At least, not in the same way that most of East Asia was xenophobic. Perhaps, the Soviet Union, under Stalin.

    Really the word that should be used today is “xenophilia”, alongside other “philias” but the left only works in “phobias.”

  222. iffen says:
    @German_reader

    try to normalize the idea that not everybody is the same and that at least some groups of foreigners are extremely undesirable as immigrants

    I think that this is the wrong approach for those of us in the US and perhaps for you in Germany. In the US we would have to say that there cannot be further immigration from certain groups even if those certain groups are already here and are citizens. Simply put, I don’t believe that I have the right as a citizen, as a descendant of Scotch-Irish and Germans, to tell my fellow black Americans that we can’t have any more immigration from Africa, but immigrants from Ireland and Scotland are okay. It would be much easier to argue for a immigration hiatus across the board. Not because we don’t want certain groups coming in, or because certain groups can’t or won’t assimilate, but because of present economic conditions we need time to get our house in order before we can expect to be able to handle more immigrants.

  223. Beckow says:
    @German_reader

    …normalize the idea that not everybody is the same

    It is unfortunate that our enlightenment heritage has metastized into a complete ‘all are equal‘ idiocy. As long as that is foundation of most laws and is generally accepted by majority of people, it is hard to prevent the gradual slide into a non-European future.

    Regarding the steps to take, I am skeptical about administrative rules because of the way laws and regulations are interpreted by courts (and in general by most byrocrats). What is missing is consensus that what has happened is wrong, that the leaders and media who made it happen need to be held accountable, and that visible, dramatic changes have to be made to make sure it cannot happen again. Here the change to incoherent ‘asylum laws’ would be a good start.

    What the EU elites are attempting right now is a ‘soft landing’ – to suppress the discussion by claiming that the crisis is over, to scream and shout about xenophobia, racism and ‘labor shortages’. They are going as far as planting false ‘immigration freeze’ stories, that they then criticize, in order to confuse what is going on. The goals have not changed – they are willing to take a time-out and restart the whole process in a few years. It is very hard to fight because, as you pointed out, most people are fools…

    • Replies: @German_reader
  224. @Beckow

    What is missing is consensus that what has happened is wrong

    Yes, that’s indeed the crucial problem, in Western Europe probably about 30% (or more?) of the population is fanatically in favour of the globalist project, and they control public debate due to their overrepresentation in the media. And most of the rest is undecided or too apathetic to do more than grumbling in private.
    I agree about the courts, the judiciary would be a major impediment to meaningful change.

    They are going as far as planting false ‘immigration freeze’ stories, that they then criticize, in order to confuse what is going on.

    Indeed, that’s what the media in Germany is trying to do, claiming that the crisis is over and everything back to normal, no reason for concern (when in fact there were still at least about 165 000 new applications for asylum in 2018 which is much higher than in any year between the mid-1990s and 2014).

    • Replies: @Beckow
  225. Beckow says:
    @German_reader

    Europe is f..ed. And it is not a good thing. There might never be a civilisation that comes close to what Europe has been, and can be.

    The over-representation of the globalist fools in the media, academia and culture is like a brick wall that keeps common sense from being heard. There was a reason why entertaining clowns, all kinds of ‘heralds’, and monkish know-it-alls were kept from having real power in the past. They have a devastating effect on any society where they become a center-piece.

    Once a critical mass of apres moi le deluge, childless, verbose and confused fools was allowed to take over Western culture, it was inevitable that societies would slowly disintegrate. A clown is just a clown, why are hoi polloi masses so transfixed listening to them?

    The Third World migrants coming in can be seen as classical parasites: they see an opening, move in, invite fellow parasites, destroy the host. Once the host is diminished, what then?

    • Replies: @Bardon Kaldian
  226. @Bardon Kaldian

    Yes, AK has written about that divide as well (his explanation is the “Soviet freezer”, which seems very plausible to me given the differences between West and East Germany).

    • Replies: @Beckow
  227. Beckow says:
    @German_reader

    ‘Soviet freezer’

    That would imply that ‘freezing‘ a society is required to keep nations, families and cultures from disintegrating. I think that is too strong. West used its ‘openness‘ as a weapon during the Cold War, and then the momentum just kept on going until we have reached the current unfolding demographic-economic-cultural disaster. In 20 years most of Western Europe will be unrecognizable.

    I don’t see a way to reverse it. Or even manage it on the current level. West could become a hybrid civilization, something like most of Latin America. I am waiting for Faust played by an African and Pakistani Hamlet, a kind of a majestic f-u to the white culture. We are almost there.

  228. @Beckow

    What drives BHL is a mental condition that could charitably be described as a maniacal hatred of ‘Russia‘. He projects most evil in the world on Russia – now and even in the future. He talks about having once ‘had a certain idea of Russia‘, he mixes in post-capitalism, poverty, racist fears, whatever. This is not a normal way to talk about anything, there is no balance.

    Yes, this is his id speaking. Russia arouses some deep-seated rage in him, but the rage is so wildly disproportionate to what is actually there that he is forced to accuse it of everything under the sun.

  229. Dmitry says:

    Tyrion 2 has a human controller – unless people are writing extremely responsive bots nowadays. A funny thing is his language is similar to people he argues. I was fastly scrolling comments on my iphone with my thumb, and could not notice the difference between DFH and Tyrion. It was like the same personality on different sides. Then later on he uses the same language as German Reader.

    General point of Tyrion that there is no difference or conflict between the Jewish roots intellectuals, and non-Jewish roots intellectuals of Europe. Signing this article, all but 3 of the European Nobel prize winners. They all agree with each other, so when everyone agrees, this is just pointing to overrepresentation of people of Jewish roots in the cultural elite of Europe – not any difference between them and the non-Jewish writers.

    I would add that there is also no difference between the most successful elite writers and the mass writers. J. K. Rowling and Stephen King have the same view (including belief Trump is the Russian spy, etc), as the Nobel Prize winners.

    Question whether obsession with Jewish conspiracy theories, has some effect to undermine political views which believe in anti-immigration and anti-federalism within the EU?

    Obviously for unhappy people here this is fetish (and one which usually attracts vulgar sort of people). But then there is Geert Wilders who speaks Hebrew and lived in Israel – and he is banned from entering the UK.

    So eliminating Judeophobia and conspiracy beliefs, does not make an EU anti-immigrant politician more popular or acceptable. Perhaps it makes them even more targeted as they could not be viewed less as an eccentric.

    EU needs more visionary people like Orban as its leader. This kind of sensible politics is possible in the Eastern EU culture today, in Czech Republic, Hungary, etc. In France, it would not happen for a while (all their sides are inadequate), and not in Spain either. In Germany? Is AfD sensible? Liberal Conservative Reformers also seems similar, and perhaps with a more attractive economic viewpoint.

  230. Dmitry says:
    @melanf

    Lol, but you would prefer to read books of the bestselling authors?

    By the way in their political views, there is little difference. I just researched that J.K. Rowling (who earns millions of dollars in Russia each year) believes that Trump is controlled by Putin.

  231. Dmitry says:
    @Bardon Kaldian

    Which fiction writers would you recommend from today?

    My impression of Mario Vargas Llosa, is that he is a representative of the civilized people. He is even a bit conservative in the cultural sphere. As a political candidate, he proposed neoliberal reforms in Peru in 1990 (his enemy Fujimori, later successfully implemented these policies as President with “Fujishock” , restoring the country’s economy).

    However, in the area of immigration Llosa believes that anyone should be able to relocate to countries anywhere without borders. It’s emotionally attractive (I imagine going to any country I want in the plane, with no passport and visa applications), but obviously completely nonsense and would result in first world destruction of developed countries conquered over by third world peasants (well we already see this in places like Paris).

    • Replies: @Bardon Kaldian
  232. @Epigon

    Who the fuck cares about Nobel prize in literature? What “cultural elite” of Europe? How can cultural elite of European nations be composed of chauvinist Middle Eastern fanatics with a penchant for dismantling unity and

    cohesiom of European nations? Culture and language are bedrocks of identity and nationalism, so a Jew can’t be a cultural elite of Europeans. Pure and simple.

    This is the kind of Neanderthal thinking that any Western revival movement must distance itself from.

    More broadly, all rabid anti-Semites* on this thread should remember Moldibug’s dictum that all successful revolutions involve the co-option of the previous elite. Today’s elite was yesterday’s elite, which was yesteryear’s elite, and so on …

    * I’m looking at you, DFH. Know the difference between observation and hallucination.

    • Replies: @iffen
    , @Epigon
  233. @reiner Tor

    Ernst Nolte has been dead for over two years now. Is he getting better?

    For the record, so is Tomas Tranströmer, whom Dmitry cited above as one of three Nobel laureates not to sign the letter.

  234. iffen says:
    @Dmitry

    Actually, I think that it is you and Ty who are similar in your comments.

    this is just pointing to overrepresentation of people of Jewish roots in the cultural elite of Europe – not any difference between them and the non-Jewish writers.

    We know that Jews are over-represented in the elites; you don’t need to tell us that. Many here are alarmed by that fact. I am not (not yet, anyway.) As I stated in my previous comment, Jews are over-represented in the fraction of the elites that are hostile to normal nationalism. The proportion of non-Jewish elites that are hostile to nationalism is smaller than the proportion of Jewish elites that are hostile as per their respective bases. IOW, Jewish elites are more likely than non-Jewish elites to be hostile to nationalism. The most likely explanation for this is because they are Jews.

  235. iffen says:
    @Swedish Family

    This is the kind of Neanderthal thinking

    Don’t be dissin’ our ancestors like this.

  236. Dmitry says:
    @Yevardian

    I’m not sure how writing it like it is a text file extension, changes meaning either.

    The terminology “neoliberal”, was useful to clarify later 20th century ideologies based in the historic 19th century knowledge and views of “classical liberalism”.

    People introduced this clarification because a meaning of “liberal” was changed in the early 20th century to refer only as a kind of moderate socialism with permissive social views.

    Thinkers of “neoliberalism” are Hayek, Friedman, et al. Although the terminology “classical liberal” may be less corrupted by propaganda.

    Hayek indeed believed in some European economic federalism. But this is not a superstate ideology which EU was actually following.
    https://www.martenscentre.eu/sites/default/files/publication-files/european-federalism-spinelli-hayek.pdf

    Hayek was also most associated with Margaret Thatcher, who opposed immigration to the UK.

  237. songbird says:
    @Dmitry

    JK Rowling shouldn’t really be a surprise. There’s not much difference between her and a single mother, though I believe she was technically married at the time of conception. It was obviously an impulsive thing, and she was on welfare for a number of years.

    King is really a terrible writer. I think he could perhaps write better, if he put more time into it, but he doesn’t need to, so he won’t. I doubt if he ever came up with a good or original idea. He may have fried his brain.

    Of course, John le Carré was mentioned before as being unhinged.

    I think it is most popular writers. I don’t know if that is an association with more verbal people, or reflects the selection process of getting published and sold in mainstream stores. If so, maybe the center of gravity will shift with ebooks.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  238. @Anonymous lurker

    They still do. But emphasis on “house” here, many (most?) one-family houses with an accompanying lawn/garden patch has a flagpole and fly the flag every now and then (for birthdays, June 6th, Midsummer’s Eve etc).

    Many more constantly fly a “vimpel” which looks somewhat like an elongated, pointy Ukrainian flag. The reason being that the latter is exempt from the old “must be lowered before sunset” rule that applies to the proper flag, and people are lazy I guess.

    The immensely popular Swedish summer cottages tend to have a Swedish flag sticking out beside the front door or by the terrace if present, too. If you travel the countryside I’d wager 8/10 houses have one, often in combination with a stand-alone flagpole.

    This is all true. I will add only that our Swedish flag is sensitive to context. Sporting a T-shirt with a Swedish flag on it is not the done thing, nor is having a Swedish flag as your avatar on social media, but flying it on holidays is fine, and so is any display of it abroad. I’m speaking of the major cities here. Small-towners are more accepting.

    Overall, you find far less flag-waving here than in Eastern Europe*. I think this is because flag rituals are first of all a young country’s game. When your nation has had its own state for centuries, these overt expressions of fealty feel a little desperate.

    * Fewer EU flags too. The Baltics especially are swimming in them. Things that make you go hmm.

  239. @Dmitry

    Liberal Conservative Reformers also seems similar, and perhaps with a more attractive economic viewpoint.

    I think that party has already broken apart…it was always irrelevant anyway. There isn’t much demand for a party led by liberal economics professors. And the urgency of the situation since 2015 requires something different.
    As for Judeophobia, sure, it wouldn’t be smart to adopt antisemitism as a political programme. But let’s not pretend the only issue here is loony obsessives who blame all the world’s ills on Jews. AfD actually has a few Jewish members, but still gets harshly attacked by mainstream Jewish organizations, because any even moderately nationalist party is seen as dangerous. That may be especially pronounced in Germany given the Nazi past, but similar problems can be discerned in other Western countries as well. And there’s also the issue of undue deference to Zionist narratives about the Mideast conflict which is a problem with many mainstream conservatives. So there’ll always be some potential for conflict, even if it wouldn’t be wise for nationalists to deliberately inflame the situation by antisemitic campaigning.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  240. @Tyrion 2

    “Also, to be honest, it isn’t easy, personally, to ignore the abyss of anti-Semitism glooming adjacent to you when you stand on the nationalist side. It actually is vile.”

    The jew cries out in pain as he orders you to stop noticing.

  241. Dmitry says:
    @German_reader

    AfD actually has a few Jewish members, but still gets harshly attacked

    This is what I am saying. For example, Geert Wilders lived in Israel, and yet he is banned from entering the UK.

    So it’s not necessary that Judeophobia is what will undermine the anti-immigrant politics. Because, inversely, even the Judeophiles which lived in Israel like Geert Wilders, can be banned from the EU countries like UK.

    But Judeophobia political campaign will select for the lower level people and also would be, ironically, more popular with immigrants than with natives of the EU.

    So the likely reality is that the successful political campaigns in the EU incorporating Judeophobia, will win a lot of immigrant votes. So probably it will firstly be introduced more in the parties which attract the immigrants.

    I think that party has already broken apart…it was always irrelevant anyway. There isn’t much demand for a party led by liberal economics professors.

    It seems unfortunate. I just found about them on Wikipedia.

  242. @Dmitry

    It seems unfortunate.

    Not really. They were a bunch of incompetent losers, no political skill at all, and desperate for respectability (which is futile, the political establishment in Germany doesn’t play fair, they’ll always try to crush any serious opposition, no matter how often you disavow the supposed extremists in your party).

  243. Dmitry says:
    @songbird

    JK Rowling

    I guess she simply wildly hates Trump, and that’s why she believes in the Trump-Russia conspiracy (as people believe what they want to be true, and people who dislike Trump want this conspiracy theory to be true because it would result in his prosecution). She probably hates Trump because his bad manners with women. And Russia is collateral damage of her hatred of Trump.

    Otherwise it would be too surreal – she is the bestselling writer in Russia (in any year she publishes a book).

  244. @Dmitry

    This is one of those questions I can’t answer, but are worth un-answering.

    1. I ceased to read fiction some time ago, when I was 33-35. Until then, I’ve read most “classics” & a lot of trash. I guess sociological investigations about men stopping to read fiction are right: https://www.salon.com/2011/06/28/stopped_reading_fiction/ ( I read too much, but not fiction, with very few exceptions)

    2. I think that:

    a) great fictions were written mostly during 19th & 1st half of the 20th C. Then, it all fizzled. Perhaps influence of cinema, TV, who knows…

    b) contemporary fiction writers don’t have as much life experience as those 19th C greats. Also, they’re too educated (not a desirable quality in a writer). Too dependent on worldly success & too conformist. Not courageous enough.

    c) they “break” taboos that are not taboos anymore (sex & the rest). I haven’t seen any real contrarian, except Boer novelist Coetzee in some works (and he, too, is restrained).

    d) what I skimmed through is brilliant, but ultimately irrelevant (Rushdie, Roy), too national & parochial (Americans like McCarthy or various local Jewish Americans), incomprehensible (Israeli Grossman), boring female pretensions (Ulickaja, Jellinek) & eloquent repetitive fantasists (many Latinos). Basically, I don’t believe their characters, dialogs, … life.

    As for Vargas Llosa, he is a typical international literary success story. His earlier work was readable, although uneven. Now, he’s a loudspeaker for global anti-national elites & shallow in the extreme in his pronouncements. I don’t mind theatricality- after all, Faulkner & Hemingway were posturers – but they had not tried to preach to the masses how to live.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  245. @Dmitry

    she is the bestselling writer in Russia

    Would be better if Russians wrote their own children’s literature, that Harry Potter trash needs to go.

  246. Dmitry says:
    @Dmitry

    Otherwise it would be too surreal – she is the bestselling writer in Russia (in any year she publishes a book).

    Although there was also her threat of lawsuit against Dmitry Emets, for the derivative Tanya Grotter series.

  247. Dmitry says:
    @Bardon Kaldian

    . I ceased to read fiction some time ago

    In my situation – it seems more that I have lost my attention for reading long books. And the reason is probably laptops, ipads and iphones.

    I can still work and study fine – but it’s easier now in interactive way. While reading a novel requires you to receive information passively for so many hours.

    Another barrier, is when you try to learn new languages and then refuse to read translations. Now if I would try to read Vargas Llosa, I would only do it in the Spanish language, where my vocabulary is quite weak (so I would be with the online dictionary half the time).

    Your view of him may a bit unfair, however. He published this book La civilización del espectáculo – which is apparently very critical of modern art.

  248. dfordoom says: • Website
    @Dmitry

    Published in the socialistic newspaper the Guardian

    How exactly is The Guardian socialistic? Are they advocating for the nationalisation of the banks? The breaking up of monopolies? Workers’ control of industry? A radical redistribution of wealth?

    Or do they advocate for identity politics and globalism, both of which are antithetical to socialism?

  249. @Dmitry

    This is what I am saying. For example, Geert Wilders lived in Israel, and yet he is banned from entering the UK.

    So it’s not necessary that Judeophobia is what will undermine the anti-immigrant politics. Because, inversely, even the Judeophiles which lived in Israel like Geert Wilders, can be banned from the EU countries like UK.

    But Judeophobia political campaign will select for the lower level people and also would be, ironically, more popular with immigrants than with natives of the EU.

    Geert Wilders is a lower-class populist. The upper-class populists in the Netherlands are Thierry Baudet and his Forum for Democracy.

    There are a lot of proles who enjoy experiencing nationalism vicariously through Israel and her attacks on Arabs.

    So the likely reality is that the successful political campaigns in the EU incorporating Judeophobia, will win a lot of immigrant votes. So probably it will firstly be introduced more in the parties which attract the immigrants.

    European nationalist parties will and do usually get co-opted into supporting Israel by Likudniks, their constituents don’t seem to care much.

    In contrast, far-left parties often contain a lot of muslims who don’t quite understand the quixotic idea that Jews in Israel are bad but diaspora Jews in Europe and America are somehow good.

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
    , @utu
    , @Dmitry
  250. @Dmitry

    She probably hates Trump because his bad manners with women. And Russia is collateral damage of her hatred of Trump.

    JK Rowling went full nutzo and started retconning her own books and acting as a guardian of the public morals on Twitter.

    I don’t think it has to do with manners. Anglosphere bien-pensants still hate his Vice President Mike Pence even though he is probably the most well-mannered person in regards to personal (not political) conduct.

    Otherwise it would be too surreal – she is the bestselling writer in Russia (in any year she publishes a book).

    After being immensely drenched in it for a few years now, I think the hatred of Russia has taken on a life of its own. As seen by the manifesto above, everything can be connected to Russia.

    • Replies: @utu
    , @Dmitry
  251. @Hyperborean

    In contrast, far-left parties often contain a lot of muslims who don’t quite understand the quixotic idea that Jews in Israel are bad but diaspora Jews in Europe and America are somehow good.

    They have fewer taboos on attacking Jews, both amongst themselves and by external society.

    They also take it much more personally as a blood feud, perhaps both because of their ethnic and class background.

  252. utu says:
    @Hyperborean

    There are a lot of proles who enjoy experiencing nationalism vicariously through Israel and her attacks on Arabs.

    Very astute observation. And sad.

    European nationalist parties will and do usually get co-opted into supporting Israel by Likudniks, their constituents don’t seem to care much

    It seems this was a part of the plan from the very beginning. Get the anti-immigrant anti-Muslim energy focused on the support of Israel. And if the energy is waning they can always arrange a terrorist act or send another wave of refugees.

  253. utu says:
    @Hyperborean

    After being immensely drenched in it for a few years now, I think the hatred of Russia has taken on a life of its own.

    I think this is an excellent and scary example of how reality can be artificially constructed. The construction achieves the solidity of the real thing to the point that Russia begins to conform to it. It should be analyzed and placed in textbooks of political science and sociology.

  254. APilgrim says:

    Kamala Harris is an Article-2-Ineligible Neo-Liberal.

  255. Anon 2 says:
    @German_reader

    True. Many Germans began emigrating to the 13 American colonies in the
    18th century. The Polish immigrants have come primarily in the last 200
    years so the links are much closer. Moreover, because the U.S. fought
    Germany in both world wars, there is a lot of unpleasant history involving
    Germans in the U.S. 1. More Americans were killed by Germany than by
    any other country. Steve Sailer even jokes that all the good Germans came
    to America leaving only the bad Germans in Europe. 2. German nationals
    were placed in internment camps during both wars, more during
    WW I, 3. The anti-German hatred was so intense around 1914-5 that a number
    of German nationals were lynched in the state of Missouri.

    In contrast, Polish aristocrats and nobility had friendships at the highest
    levels of American politics. For example, Generals Kosciuszko (who designed
    West Point) and Pulaski were friends with Washington and Jefferson. General
    Krzyzanowski fought in the Civil War. Paderewski, Polish nobleman and
    a great pianist, was close friends with President Woodrow Wilson, and made
    a decisive contribution to Poland’s independence. Polish aristocrat Alfred
    Korzybski, the founder of General Semantics, socialized after WW I with
    (the future General) Patton. Both were accomplished cavalry men and
    swordsmen, i.e., not mere intellectuals but also men of action. And, of course,
    another Polish aristocrat, Zbigniew Brzezinski, played an important role
    in recent American politics. Noblemen and aristocrats were such a novelty in the
    U.S. that they easily found access to the highest levels of power. Many people
    wanted to be friends with them.

    Tom Malinowski whom I mentioned, has a famous name, but I don’t know
    if he is related to Bronislaw Malinowski, one of the founders of
    anthropology. However, he had already served in the Obama
    administration. He is now a Democratic congressman from New Jersey.

    • Replies: @utu
  256. Seraphim says:

    @One wonders if they got the idea from co-signer Svetlana Alexievich

    Who initiated this Manifesto? BHL! That and the ritual evocation of the 30’s, of the ‘explosions of xenophobia and antisemitism’ should have given us a hint where the idea came from (I rely on Wikipedia):

    “The International League against Racism and Anti-Semitism—or Ligue Internationale Contre le Racisme et l’Antisémitisme (LICRA) in French—was established in 1927, and is opposed to intolerance, xenophobia and exclusion.
    In 1927, French journalist Bernard Lecache created “The League Against Pogroms”, and launched a media campaign in support of Sholom Schwartzbard who assassinated Symon Petliura on 25 May 1926 in the Latin Quarter of Paris. Schwartzbard viewed Petliura as responsible for numerous pogroms in Ukraine. After Schwartzbard’s acquittal, the league evolved into LICA (Ligue internationale contre l’antisémitisme—or international league against anti-semitism). Schwartzbard was a prominent activist in this organization.
    In 1931, LICA already counted 10000 subscribers all over France. It was a solid power during the battle between leagues in February 1934. After 1932, LICA evolved into LICRA, but the name was officially changed only in 1979 during the long (1968–1992) presidency of Jean Pierre-Bloch.
    In September 1939, as the Second World War started, numerous LICRA subscribers mobilised, and many were members of the Resistance throughout the war. During the German occupation of France, LICRA was banned by the Vichy government and had to regroup clandestinely to help the victims of Nazi racial measures, notably by hiding them away from Paris, by providing them with fake IDs, and by helping them escape to Switzerland, Spain and England*.
    In 1972, a law authorized LICRA to counsel victims of racist acts during their court appearances. LICRA received considerable media attention during the case of LICRA v. Yahoo!, in which it brought charges against Yahoo! for selling Nazi memorabilia to people in France in violation of French laws proposed, passed, and used by and for LICRA.
    The LICRA keeps fighting neonazism and Holocaust denial. This was demonstrated when it supported the Klarsfeld couple (Serge and Beate Klarsfeld), and during Klaus Barbie’s trial in 1987.
    In the last few years, LICRA intensified its international actions by opening sections abroad, in Switzerland, in Belgium, in Luxembourg, in Germany, in Portugal, in Quebec and more recently in Congo Brazzaville and in Austria.
    Since 1999, with the arrival of president Patrick Gaubert, LICRA has extended its area of action. It now addresses social issues such as work discrimination, citizenship, and disadvantaged youth”.

    *Did they have any relation (rhetorical question!) with “The Jewish Anti-Fascist Committee (JAC, Russian: Еврейский антифашистский комитет Yevreysky antifashistsky komitet, ЕАК)… organized by the Jewish Bund (General Jewish Labour Bund in Lithuania, Poland and Russia – Algemeyner Yidisher Arbeter Bund in Litah, Poyln un Rusland) leaders Henryk Erlich and Victor Alter**, upon an initiative of Soviet authorities, in fall 1941, designed to influence international public opinion and organize political and material support for the Soviet fight against Nazi Germany, particularly from the West, only to be “arrested on trumped-up spying charges, tortured, tried in secret proceedings, and executed in the basement of Lubyanka Prison” by Stalin and elements of the KGB “worried about their influence and connections with the West” after all they did for the crushing of the “Fascist Beast”? When the ‘stunned’ West realized, all of a sudden, that the atavistic ‘pogromism’ of the Russians did not die out?
    ** Among the signatories of the Manifesto is Adam Michnik. ‘Papa’ Ozjasz Szechter was First Secretary of the Communist Party of Western Ukraine, and his ‘Mama’ Helena Michnik was a historian, communist activist, and children’s-book author. His step-brother on his mother’s side, Stefan Michnik, was a Stalinist military judge in the 1950s, who passed sentence, including executions, in politically-motivated trials of members of Polish anti Nazi resistance fighters (later formally implicated in zbrodnie komunistyczne (“communist crimes”) by Polish courts. Michnik’s newspaper,’Gazeta Wyborcza’, combated nationalistic slant of Polish clergy and would spotlight incidents of sexual abuse perpetrated by the clergy, which was interpreted by those still strongly attached to the Catholicism as an assault on the Church and, in consequence, alienated a large portion of the population.

    See the meme? ‘Pogroms>Tsars>Kremlin>Stalin>Putin= Holocaust”

    • Agree: Epigon
    • Replies: @utu
  257. utu says:
    @Seraphim

    Good post. The left has a long tradition and operational know-how they can keep recycling. If it works why change it. They keep reusing old templates in propaganda just like our iffen above.

    ‘Papa’ Ozjasz Szechter – The father of Michael T. Kaufman (NYT correspondence in Warsaw in 1980s) was doing time with Ozjasz Szechter for communism in the pre WWII Poland. Adam Michnik got his seed money to start the most important paper in Poland (Gazeta Wyborcza) from the New York Review of Books. Helena Łuczywo who runs the media empire of Gazeta Wyborcza is a daughter of Fredynand Chaber who was in charge of communist propaganda in the post war communist Poland while in the Department of Public Security.

    The so called intellectual elite currently dominat in Poland has it roots in Stalinist mostly Jewish apparatchiks and functionaries (frequently working for secret police like Luczywo’s father or Michnik’s brother) who after 1956 or 1968 were purged but their offspring like Adam Michnk and Helen Luczywo became active in trotskyist ‘communism with human face’ opposition to the communist apparatus that purged their fathers and mothers in 1960s and 1970s which lead to the Solidarity revolt in 1980s.

    The Gazeat Wyborcza and media spawned by it did such an excellent job on Poles that average Poles do not know what is right or left or what is up or down anymore.

    Polish Jews who worked for Secret Police in communist Poland even played prominent roles among German intellectuals. Marcel Reich-Ranicki also left Poland after the anti-Stalinist purge of the communist apparatus in 1956. In Germany he became one of the most important and influential literary critic and political commentator.

  258. utu says:
    @Anon 2

    You can’t compare accomplishments of Polish Americans with that of German Americans. Couple orders of magnitude difference. If you live in Chicago you may get a false impression because Polish names pop up frequently in media, however do not have a political muscle that would be proportional to their numbers. Since Dan Rostenkowski was brought down there is no prominent Polish politician from there. The congresswoman with Polish sounding name, Jan Schakovsky, is Jewish. Stop fantasizing and confabulating and come back down to earth. Nowadays Poles in America have no power and no political lobby to speak of.

    But there are good things that can be said about Polish Americans from the point of view of America which is that Poles successfully assimilated and ceased to be a troublesome ethnic minority. In this process they were helped by negative attitudes they evoked. It was no different with Germans who were forced to undergo accelerated assimilation at record speeds to escape the stigmatization during and after the WWI.

    • Replies: @Anon 2
  259. Epigon says:
    @Swedish Family

    This dictum you quote is utter nonsense. Bolsheviks, Maoists, Yugocommunists co-opted previous elite? French revolution co-opted royalist elite?

    It would be highly amusing to read through your explanation on how anti-national, neoliberal economic and plutocratic elites can be co-opted. How compromise can be reached with the same people that sought to dillute ethnic homogenity of their own country and promote foreign ways. European revival can’t be separated from raising TFR of indigenous population, at the same time stopping influx of migrants and reducing their TFR – and for this to happen, the ideology and rhetorics of the last 50 years simply have to be reversed.

    Swedes are living up to their reputation on this thread – explicit Globalist, implicit Atlanticist.

    • Replies: @Mitleser
    , @peterAUS
  260. Epigon says:

    It isn’t just Russia that attracts the irrational hostility of BHL and similar “thinkers”. Just read through their narrative on Serbs and Serbia. My guess is that Orthodoxy of that type, mentality and traditions associated with it makes them foam at their mouths.

    In addition, Serbs have been a much easier target due to overwhelming propaganda and democracy export in the 90s, so they could reveal the full extent of their pathological hate and twisting of facts.

  261. AaronB says:
    @utu

    State-level fascism hasn’t arrived yet, but our social elite has been preparing for it for decades. They are in no hurry to make it happen, but they will if they judge it to favor their interests. Why have they been fomenting right-wing populism– using racial resentments, religious bigotry, and the frank irrationality that emerges from stunted masculinity and (economically enforced) permanent adolescence? To ensure that, no matter what else happens during a populist uprising, they’ll have an easy time getting their money out of it. The upper class has convinced the rabble that generational wealth and connections– neither of which the rabble themselves have– are a right; meanwhile, leftists and racial minorities are a source of their misery.

    This society is set up so that, if such events come to pass, the most armed and ready militants will be on the right wing. Not only will this support the elite’s economic goals and keep the proletariat divided against itself, but it will also mean that any revolutionary effort is likely to be overcome by people with such repugnant ideological and cultural aims that they will never gain global sympathy. The upper class would rather have a 95 percent chance of a rightist-racist revolt that no one (present company included) would support than a 25 percent chance of a leftist revolt that would quickly gain global sympathy.

    – Michael O Church blog

    It is amusing to see all the ernest right wingers tell the Left that if they keep on practicing identity politics, whites will begin to also – as if the Left does not know this and want this.

    • Agree: Mr. XYZ
    • Replies: @German_reader
  262. Mitleser says:
    @Epigon

    French revolution co-opted royalist elite?

    Members of the other estates supported the 3rd.

    Ironically, some wealthier members of the Second Estate became prominent supporters of liberal and therefore revolutionary ideas. Several factors led to the growth of a small but vocal group of liberal nobles: economic modernisation, the entry of former bourgeoisie into the Second Estate, the growth of the Enlightenment, access to liberal political texts by Rousseau and other philosophes, and the circulation of British and American political ideas. Noblemen like Marquis de Lafayette, the Duke of Noailles and Honore Mirabeau received a liberal education and read the work of Enlightenment authors like Jean-Jacques Rousseau and Denis Diderot. In the case of Lafayette, he experienced the successes of the American Revolution first hand, serving as an adjutant to George Washington. These liberal nobles would shortly become prominent leaders of the French Revolution. Liberal ideas could also be found in many of the cahiers de doléances (‘books of grievance’) that were drafted by the Second Estate and submitted to the Estates General in 1789. Many of these grievance ledgers called for a constitution; a few even petitioned to end noble exemptions from taxation.

    https://alphahistory.com/frenchrevolution/second-estate/

    Many priests welcomed the summoning of the Estates General in mid-1789, where they were well represented (208 of the First Estate delegates at the Estates General were parish priests). In many cahiers de doleance the lower clergy called for greater democracy and consultation in church decision making, as well as a review of the church’s exemption from taxation. The liberalism of the lower clergy was reflected by their actions at the Estates General when 149 of their deputies opted to join the Third Estate to form the National Assembly.

    https://alphahistory.com/frenchrevolution/first-estate/

    • Replies: @Epigon
  263. Epigon says:
    @Mitleser

    The examples you quoted were hardly the elite and powerbrokers of France – they simply were opportunists looking to climb the ladder and increase the power they wield in the society, or simply adapt and survive through a period which saw many of their peers murdered and exiled. A few nobles and low clergy does not make a royalist elite. Also, France in 1789 and France in 1793 were different to a significant degree.
    I mean, the idea of compromise and co-opting is absurd: borders will be open half the year? Subsaharan, Middle Eastern, Central Asian and Latin American migrants will be accepted 3 days a week? Genders will be reduced to reasonable 12? Half the Hollywood series and movies will promote degenerate and hedonistic lifestyle devoid of responsibilities? Democracy(TM) and freedom(TM) will be exported once per decade, and never two times in a row to the same continent? MSM will have a weekly “facts and ratio” 30 minute shows?

    • Replies: @Swedish Family
  264. @AaronB

    That’s just the standard leftie nonsense…”Why can’t people focus on economic issues and see that they have common interests with immigrants against the bankers?”.
    In reality “elites” and immigrants are allies against the native majority.

    Why have they been fomenting right-wing populism

    Total nonsense, the “elites” do everything to crush right-wing populism by social ostracism, draconian hate speech laws and violence by their antifa pets.
    I have to admit something like that does raise the question whether your true intention here is to demoralize the nationalist commenters and shame them back into wimpy mainsteam positions.

    • Agree: Epigon, Hyperborean
    • Replies: @AaronB
    , @utu
  265. AaronB says:
    @German_reader

    In reality “elites” and immigrants are allies against the native majority.

    That’s exactly it. Elites divide the common people so they cannot form a common front against them.

    Total nonsense, the “elites” do everything to crush right-wing populism by social ostracism, draconian hate speech laws and violence by their antifa pets.

    Nothing is more obvious than that these tactics tend to create white racial consciousness. Right wingers point out again and again that if the Lefts stated goal is truly to prevent white racial consciousness, then engaging in identity politics for other races is the worst way to do it. Elites are not stupid. They tend to be unsentimental clear eyed strategizers. They are actively fomenting social division. Ask yourself why. Think logically, without emotion.

    The elites are bringing in immigrants for economic reasons that benefit themselves and to create a divided society distracted by racial conflict. So your first order of business is to confront the elites. If that requires alliances with other races then it’s necessary. Focusing your energy on racial resentments is exactly what the elites want you to do. It keeps you distracted, and it prevents you from forming a united power bloc that might siphon off a portion of the elites – a crucial development.

    You can’t fight an alliance of elites, minorities, and large numbers of whites who side with them. If instead of playing identity politics you united in an economic bloc you might have a chance. The elites are terrified of that.

    Deal with the situation as it is rather than how you would wish it be. The presence of large numbers of minorities is now a fact. You can choose to ally with them against the elites and make it in their economic self interest to also oppose further immigration, or you can fight them, distracting you from focusing on the elites, and ensuring that immigration will continue. But a united bloc of whites and minorities that opposed further immigration for economic reasons and focused on creating a more equitable system instead of the current concentration of wealth among the elites would be a powerful force. For that some form of socialism is essential – and the alt-right is allergic to socialism.

    In time, if the racial issue still festers, you can contemplate different political arrangements. But every program has multiple stages. It’s called strategy.

    Your nationalist commenters have a serious human quality problem. That’s because your message is negative. The elites want the opposition to have a negative message that attracts low quality people.

    • Replies: @German_reader
    , @iffen
  266. @AaronB

    If that requires alliances with other races then it’s necessary. Focusing your energy on racial resentments is exactly what the elites want you to do.

    That kind of analysis is very American. And maybe it even made sense at some point in American history and in certain regions. Yes, maybe blacks and poor whites in the American South in the late 19th/early 20th century should have focused on common economic interests and teamed up against the white elites (who may indeed have used the race issue to deflect criticism of their economic policies). And maybe to some extent a similar analysis might even apply to the US today, though it seems doubtful to me.
    But it has little to do with the situation in Europe. I have nothing in common with the hordes that have swarmed into my country in the last few years. They are invaders and parasites, and they have to go back. There can never be any common interest with them, and anybody who pretends otherwise is in thrall to foolish illusions or fundamentally dishonest.

    Your nationalist commenters have a serious human quality problem. That’s because your message is negative.

    “I want my nation to live” is a supremely positive message.

    • Replies: @AaronB
  267. AaronB says:
    @German_reader

    While the two situations are different, I don’t see by how much.

    What if the price of stopping further elite-driven immigration was to form an alliance with the recent immigrants. Simply as a measure of pure realism. What if refusing to do so leaves all the power in the hands of the elites to continue immigration as you squabble among yourselves. What if forming a broad based economic front is your only chance. Or, a broad based front that excluded most recent immigrants but was explicitly communal and economic based.

    As for a positive message, what if you immediately cut out all the negative stuff about other races – which today forms the bulk of the alt-right message – and focus only on the positive message of preserving your nation, with a strong socialistic and communitarian angle. An angle that isn’t just selfish, but focuses strongly on community and economic equity.

    Prominent alt-right leader Vox Day despises Nazism because it was socialistic, promotes free market capitalism, focuses heavily on how terrible the other races are – he is channelling purely negative emotion, not positive. This is typical, and will scare away high quality people.

    • Replies: @German_reader
    , @Beckow
  268. LH says:
    @Beckow

    Kundera is not very well known in the Czech Republic, and people generally don’t think much of him. Most famous, definitely not.

    This is true, also due to his own choice. He does not allow translations of his (French written) books to the Czech language.

  269. @AaronB

    What if the price of stopping further elite-driven immigration was to form an alliance with the recent immigrants.

    You can’t form an alliance with the kind of “refugee” trash I was writing about, the present system suits them perfectly…to pretend that they’re somehow “exploited” (instead of exploiting German taxpayers) is a grotesque inversion of reality; in fact they’re extremely privileged.
    In the German context the sort of alliance you’re thinking about might be possible with EU immigrants, and maybe with parts of the Turkish population (though even that would be very difficult and fraught with problems, since many Turks have no interest in immigration restriction that would keep them from importing brides from the old country etc.; many of them are also soft Islamists and/or Turkish chauvinists who despise German society). So obviously a nationalist movement might have to moderate itself and can’t be full Nazi. But it’s an illusion that one can somehow ignore the fundamental clash of interests between natives and immigrants completely and just focus on bankers, the capitalist system or whatever and then there’ll be multiculti rainbow harmony.
    As for the American alt-right, I don’t have a positive impression of that movement and your criticism may have merit. iirc I only looked once at Vox Day’s site, he seemed like an irrelevant clown, like so many of those alt-right internet celebrities.

    • Replies: @iffen
    , @AaronB
  270. Beckow says:
    @AaronB

    …the price of stopping further elite-driven immigration was to form an alliance with the recent immigrants. Simply as a measure of pure realism.

    To some extent that happens naturally anyway. But it is also a reality that it is precisely those recent migrants who push the hardest for their compatriots from the Third World – their relatives and friends – to be allowed to come in. Without their help the number of migrants would be a lot lower. How can one ally with a group whose main objective is to do the very opposite of what needs to be done? For most of them free migration and getting into the West is a lot more important than any economic issues. Plus the elites (and fools) make sure that most of them are not on the labor market. That is also not accidental.

    forming a broad based economic front is your only chance

    It is mathematically impossible to form any economic block to help workers with an unbalanced supply-demand of labor. When there is an over-supply of labor no amount of ‘organising’, or holding hands can succeed. Any economic progress has to start with controlling borders and the endless influx of cheap labor. If you don’t get that, you don’t understand any of this.

    Your point about negative stuff about the ‘others‘ is true. But in an all-out fight it will be impossible to control. It is exactly the self-serving migrant communities and their racially conscious leaders who stir up most of the negative stuff. To expect the long passive and constantly demonised European native population to not respond is naive. I agree that the elites are using it, but it is not that easy to prevent, so discussing it is mostly a waste of time. Yeah, some of it is ugly, well so is a lot of other stuff.

    • Replies: @peterAUS
    , @AaronB
  271. iffen says:
    @AaronB

    Who are you and how did you steal AB’s moniker?

  272. iffen says:
    @German_reader

    In the German context the sort of alliance you’re thinking about might be possible with EU immigrants, and maybe with parts of the Turkish population

    If this has the best chance of success, why wouldn’t you support it?

    • Replies: @German_reader
  273. @iffen

    If this has the best chance of success, why wouldn’t you support it?

    Where did I write that I wouldn’t support it?
    However it’s not like one could just conjure something like this into existence by sheer good will. There are also issues beyond German control, notably the attempts by Erdogan’s government to influence Turkish minorities abroad.

    • Replies: @iffen
  274. @Epigon

    I mean, the idea of compromise and co-opting is absurd: borders will be open half the year? Subsaharan, Middle Eastern, Central Asian and Latin American migrants will be accepted 3 days a week? Genders will be reduced to reasonable 12? Half the Hollywood series and movies will promote degenerate and hedonistic lifestyle devoid of responsibilities? Democracy(TM) and freedom(TM) will be exported once per decade, and never two times in a row to the same continent? MSM will have a weekly “facts and ratio” 30 minute shows?

    The compromise is not ideological but material: the old elite gets to keep its social standing in exchange for ideological compliance. This works since most people are ideologically agnostic at heart. At present, mass immigration is seen by most Westerners as moral and just. But this is mostly a function of ideological programming — it could just as easily be framed the other way (its class war by stealth, it waters down cultural ecosystems, it drains the Third World of talent).

    • Replies: @songbird
    , @Beckow
  275. peterAUS says:
    @Beckow

    Agree.

    Especially with:
    “…it is also a reality that it is precisely those recent migrants who push the hardest for their compatriots from the Third World – their relatives and friends – to be allowed to come in. Without their help the number of migrants would be a lot lower. How can one ally with a group whose main objective is to do the very opposite of what needs to be done?”

    and

    “…It is mathematically impossible to form any economic block to help workers with an unbalanced supply-demand of labor. When there is an over-supply of labor no amount of ‘organising’, or holding hands can succeed. Any economic progress has to start with controlling borders and the endless influx of cheap labor.”

  276. peterAUS says:
    @Epigon

    This dictum you quote is utter nonsense.

    Agree.

    Wherever/whenever the true change happened “co opting old elite” wasn’t the case.
    People wishing to believe otherwise are either naive or, more likely, aren’t really looking for a true change. “Cuckservatives” on Al-Light are good example.

    Plenty of them around.

  277. songbird says:
    @Swedish Family

    I really doubt if it is most. Maybe, most pols? But even then I think it has more to do with greed, cowardice (though rational), shortsightedness, and vanity.

  278. Dmitry says:

    Just quickly scrolling the comments – it seems German Reader is at least more correct than AaronB (with this new socialist conspiracy about elites).

    We are all here elites to some extent, as the opportunities for our generation were comparatively quite good. The important thing is to maintain current opportunities and quality of life.

    Open borders and flooding with people of the third-world, has potential to reduce political stability and damage our opportunities and quality of life to a greater or lesser extent (in countries it already has diminished the society – for example, with all the problems in France).

    If there is need for more workers for certain industries, this could be by rich countries achieved at least in a managed and controlled way.

    All the world wants to go to richer countries. So if and when rich countries it is desirable to allow immigrants, they are the one in the position to choose only what they consider higher human capital.

    But maybe there is already some idiocracy now – when this kind of easy problem of building immigration filters, cannot be solved or discussed in a normal way. (And Trump wasn’t necessary helpful in the way he discussed this situation in relation to Mexican immigration to America).

    • Replies: @German_reader
    , @songbird
  279. @Dmitry

    We are all here elites to some extent

    Certainly not!
    Agree with the rest of your comment.

    • Replies: @for-the-record
  280. Dmitry says:
    @Hyperborean

    I think the hatred of Russia has taken on a life of its own. As seen by the manifesto above, everything can be connected to Russia.

    Optimist might expect at some point, it will collapse from its own absurdness as they perceive a more accurate view.

    For these Nobel Prize winning writers looking at Russia – the balance relative to their political views, should perhaps be slightly better for Russia than America.

    1.Russia is a part of civilized European society. At school, you are reading literature. In measures like attendance of art galleries and appreciation of classical music, Russia is declining but still one of the highest in Europe.

    2. Russia has over 100 different nationalities living together relatively (by historical or international standards) friendly and practically. Diversity of languages and nationalities is respected (unlike Ukraine or Baltic states).

    3. Russia has open borders with the neighbour countries. For some, any need for a work permit or record of purpose for entry is abolished. (This is a bad idea, but it matches the ideal of Mario Vargas Llosa).

    4. Russia has religious freedom. It is one of the most secular countries of Europe, while at the same time with government support for all major religions for anyone who wants to live religiously.

    And then the things they dislike are not so extraordinary.

    1. Police and security services in Russia are often authoritarian trash. (But they are even worse in America).

    2. Putin is dominating politics for many years (But Merkel is now reaching 14 years as being Chancellor of Germany).

    3. Media is biased and often modified for approved politicians (Sure, but also in America – CNN was biased for Obama and Clinton).

    4. Sexual minorities are not promoted (but gays are tolerated for their private sphere – not really different than countries like Japan or South Korea).

    5. There’s poverty and inequality (but income equality is higher in America according to official figures).

  281. Beckow says:
    @Swedish Family

    …the old elite gets to keep its social standing in exchange for ideological compliance

    For most of them the social and material standing is derived from their current ideological compliance. To switch would be a difficult manoeuvre. Plus a significant, visible portion of the old elite would lose everything – it always works that way (the die-hard crowd).

    most people are ideologically agnostic at heart

    Basically. Most people are opportunistic conformists because it is by far the best evolutionary strategy. Unfortunately it is not a very noble way to live one’s life.

    …framed the other way: class war by stealth, it waters down cultural ecosystems, it drains the Third World of talent

    As recently as 1-2 generations ago that was the dominant elite paradigm: they were the guardians. Then they realised that without the Third World cheap labor their costs would just keep on going up (inflation in the 70’s) and their political power would decline (uppity middle and working classes). So they engineered a massive labor over-supply change. Welcome to globalism. That and their kids went LGBQ-whatever.

    • Replies: @Swedish Family
  282. Beckow says:
    @Dmitry

    …it will collapse from its own absurdness

    That seldom happens, more likely we are on a ride to even more absurdity. Once the vocabulary of ‘they are dividing us, sabotage, meddling…‘ is introduced there is no way back. We are in a pure tribal warfare phase. When they used to accuse Russia of invading countries like Georgia or specific misdeeds, discussion was possible – you do this, we do that, let’s agree on mutual boundaries. But accusing others of subversion cannot be defined or negotiated – it is a state of mind. Russia is subverting Western unity by its very existence, in that way the signatories are kind of right.

    The intellectuals who signed that letter are not rationally evaluating it – the points you listed are true but they simply don’t care. For some like BHL it is deeply embedded in his id. For others it is the fear of disapproval and the subsequent loss of status perks. Next they will ask for bombing of the damn meddlers. Why not, according to them, the stakes are very high.

    • Replies: @peterAUS
  283. Dmitry says:
    @Hyperborean

    There are a lot of proles who enjoy experiencing nationalism vicariously through Israel and her attacks on Arabs.

    A lot of Israeli policy in relation to Arabs is extremely liberal and multicultural. And Israeli method of military action, is perceived more as weakness by many Arabs since at least the 1990s.

    Any nationalists trying to live vicariously through Israeli policy, will be disappointed by de facto liberal multinational state. They will sit in the cafe in Tel Aviv and listen to the mosque.

    In contrast, far-left parties often contain a lot of muslims who don’t quite understand the quixotic idea

    There could be some really postmodernist combinations in some countries like France, such as Muslim parties of the political right.

    France seems like the worst example to follow.

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
  284. iffen says:
    @German_reader

    Where did I write that I wouldn’t support it?

    If the populist/nationalist political movement continues to grow, won’t people like you have to choose between support for a populism based on narrow race/ethnic grounds as opposed to a more broad based national citizenship model?

    • Replies: @German_reader
  285. songbird says:
    @Dmitry

    Every group is deeply offended by the idea that it may not be desirable to have large numbers of them arrive in a certain country, where they are foreigners. Or to date the local girls, etc.

    You don’t even have to insult the group. You could have and convey a relatively high opinion of them and they would still be greatly offended as a group of interlopers. Individual exceptions, but it holds true of all groups, even whites in China or Japan. And certainly of Chinese and Japanese in America or Europe.

    They take the message as their insult, so it doesn’t matter what Trump said, unless he was saying “We need more Mexicans!” But the media would have been strongly against him, if he ever said “Less Africans and Arabs!”

    • Replies: @Swedish Family
  286. @iffen

    won’t people like you have to choose

    Maybe, there certainly are limits to what I would be willing to accept. But the entire question is hypothetical right now anyway, since in large parts of Western Europe nationalism/populism seems to be stuck at a certain level (about 15% in Germany) and even “moderate” nationalism is heavily demonized.

    • Replies: @iffen
    , @dfordoom
  287. songbird says:
    @Dmitry

    What is the most absurd narrative they would have accepted on Trump?

    It is so shocking to hear the Russian narrative repeated, that I have tried to think of what other crazy things people could say. Reptilians? China? I have come to the conclusion that the reason Russia works is primarily the racial angle. Race has a kind of reality of it own, often tied to absurdity.

    Trump is seen as the leader of white men, so he must be tarred by a theory that makes a conspiracy including other whites. It all works on a subliminal level like the branding of commercial products.

    I don’t even think it is really a revival of the Cold War because many of these people have communist sympathies and so were not successfully primed to hate Russia.

    • Replies: @Beckow
    , @Dmitry
  288. Beckow says:
    @songbird

    …reason Russia works is primarily the racial angle

    The globo-homo coalition needs white villains. They dream, talk, fear and see white men doing bad stuff everywhere. Russians nicely stepped in, there really was no-one else available. (Even I find them a bit too pushy.)

    Trump-Brexit shock was too much – it wasn’t supposed to happen. I wonder next time when something bad happens how much crazier they will go.

    This is no longer communicable with the Russia-obsessed and that is scary. Many are literally on a euphoric trip to a lala land where it all ties together behind the scenes, the amount of pathological paranoia is stunning.
    Let’s imagine two scenarios:
    1- the narrative is downplayed and declared not conclusive – that’s the best case scenario
    2- the narrative is confirmed – really easy to do, just throw a lot of verbiage around day-to-day activities and voila: conspiracy! People meet and talk and there are 140 million evil Russkies that could be pulled in (they all work for Putin)

    In the first scenario the crazies will scream ‘cover-up!‘ and try again and again. In the second scenario they will demand a war. This will be fun, damn social media – who would have thought that they could finish us off so quickly?

  289. @German_reader

    “We are all here elites to some extent” (Dmitry) Certainly not! (G_R)

    You are most definitely elite, in an intellectual sense, of this there is no doubt.

    • Replies: @German_reader
  290. Dmitry says:
    @songbird

    I have tried to think of what other crazy things people could say. Reptilians?

    It cycles repetitively in some separate topics.

    1. Trump is a Nazi.

    2. Trump hates women.

    3. Trump is agent of Putin.

    4. Trump has an unstable temperament.

    5. Trump is going to destroy the world.

    Maybe, some others.

    I think the most effective is “Trump hates women”. But they cannot maintain viewers’ attention on this same topic for more than a certain time, so they have to change the program in the cycle every week or so.

    Looking at CNN now, it seems today program is “Trump has an unstable temperament”.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  291. peterAUS says:
    @Beckow

    Both “290” and this…..agree.

  292. Dmitry says:
    @Dmitry

    Check right now front of Washington Post and New York Times – it has almost the same as CNN. They are probably co-ordinating with each other their theme for today? But almost all the articles about Trump.

    And New York Times

  293. iffen says:
    @German_reader

    You are much more pessimistic than me. Trump faces an uphill battle for re-election, but his base is not going anywhere. The sewer pond scum Romney types may take back control of the Republican Party, but the base will still exercise political power. The economic, social and political conditions that brought forth the new populism are not going away.

    I will defer to you on Europe, but if you count the UK, even from this distance I can see that May and others have spent 3 years thwarting the implementation of Brexit, surely the supporters there can see that.

    even “moderate” nationalism is heavily demonized.

    Sure, but you have to give people time to realize, “Hey, there’re talking about me.”

    At the risk of rattling the cages; that’s why it is important to be “moderate.” 🙂

    • Replies: @German_reader
  294. @iffen

    but if you count the UK, even from this distance I can see that May and others have spent 3 years thwarting the implementation of Brexit

    I don’t know, I’m quite ambivalent about Brexit. The EU in its present form certainly needs to be reformed, and the prospect of a “United states of Europe” is a nightmare imo. But I have to admit I find the tone of a lot of pro-Brexit sentiment irritating, with its bashing of continental Europe, and especially the anti-German overtones with their bizarre WW2 references. The readiness of many Brexiteers to claim that Britain isn’t even civilizationally European (which doesn’t have any connection to a political project like the EU) is very alienating…if Britain isn’t a European country, what is it? There’s a delusional quality to it, with all that talk about global Britain, and even about re-acquiring military bases in distant corners of the globe, which just seems extremely anachronistic and more driven by imperial nostalgia than any serious consideration of national interests. And above all, there’s no serious discussion at all about Britain’s mostly self-inflicted problems with mass immigration and multiculturalism, instead there might be even more non-European immigration (since even some Tories are claiming that one of the biggest problems with the EU is that it isn’t pro-diversity enough and meant “racist” preferences for Poles and other white Europeans in immigration, lol). I don’t see how there will ever be positive change or even an honest debate in Britain, along with Sweden it’s probably one of the most hopeless cases in Europe (though West Germany isn’t far behind).

    At the risk of rattling the cages; that’s why it is important to be “moderate.”

    Self-radicalization is certainly a problem, but there’s also the risk of being coopted by the establishment, or neutering oneself so much in a futile quest for respectability that one becomes irrelevant, so it’s hard to strike the right balance, especially given the hostility of the media and an establishment that doesn’t play fair.

  295. @for-the-record

    Thanks, that’s very nice, though I don’t think I deserve such praise.
    But I think that in an economic or political sense most commenters here aren’t genuinely “elite”, but more like mostly powerless observers (apart maybe from Thorfinnsson, but he seems to be currently away, probably preparing his presidential campaign).

    • Replies: @Beckow
  296. @Dmitry

    Optimist might expect at some point, it will collapse from its own absurdness as they perceive a more accurate view.

    Excellent and very fair list. I would add, perhaps, that Russian YouTube abounds with open criticism of the Kremlin, which would come as a surprise to many Westerners. To pick but one example, here is well-known stand-up comedian Danila Poperechny (from 2:27; click the “subtitles” button for English subtitles)

  297. iffen says:
    @German_reader

    I am not qualified to debate on these important points that you bring up about Brexit. I was simply looking at it in terms of a populist revolt against what the elite had decided and demanded that the proles support. In reference to globalism and control of the border, I think they would be better off out of the EU. Economically, it makes sense for them to be integrated into Europe.

    but there’s also the risk of being coopted by the establishment,

    If you can force them to adopt policies to “buy you off” that is a good thing.

    or neutering oneself so much in a futile quest for respectability that one becomes irrelevant,

    You don’t want to do this; f*** the establishment. You want to maintain respectability with regard to your potential allies.

    • Replies: @dfordoom
  298. @Beckow

    For most of them the social and material standing is derived from their current ideological compliance. To switch would be a difficult manoeuvre. Plus a significant, visible portion of the old elite would lose everything – it always works that way (the die-hard crowd).

    Some people are beyond redemption and will need to be made an example of, true, but surely most billionaires are only in it for the influence, and taking a few steps down the ladder is a small price to pay for keeping that? It seems that this was pretty much Putin’s reasoning in the early 00s, with the public clampdowns on Khodorkovsky and Berezovsky to make the other oligarchs fall in line, and it worked well for him.

  299. @songbird

    Every group is deeply offended by the idea that it may not be desirable to have large numbers of them arrive in a certain country, where they are foreigners. Or to date the local girls, etc.

    Very true. My father lives in Spain for most of the year, and he was oddly offended when I pointed out the obvious fact that too many people like him — he speaks very little Spanish and mostly mixes with Germans and Dutchmen — would be bad for Spanish culture. Israel Shamir was right when he wrote that mass immigration should be opposed on principle, no matter whom it involves.

    • Replies: @utu
  300. utu says:
    @German_reader

    In reality “elites” and immigrants are allies against the native majority.

    That’s pretty accurate. While you know it you still think that going after the immigrants w/o touching the elites may do the job. Populism must be broad against the elites. This is the only way to attract supporters from the other side that is paralyzed by the protective force field extended over minorities and immigrants. The force field gets its energy from the elites. You have to hit the power station first. People must realized that elites are their enemy. And this can be done by focusing on the economic issue not the racial or ethnic issues.

    Even this ”Why can’t people focus on economic issues and see that they have common interests with immigrants against the bankers?” could be a part of strategy to get the initial traction. However in Germany you do not have to do it because immigrants apart from Turks are not politically organized. Your chief target are Germans who do no see the long term consequences of the current process who are paralyzed by the force field.

    It is different in the US. The anti-immigration movement can’t exclude Blacks. In the US the only winning strategy would be by getting Blacks on the anti-immigration side. But this won’t happen as long as the white anti-immigration side is mostly libertarian, HBDist and IQists consoling themselves by repetitive chants of their IQ superiority with a simultaneous often unwitting homage to their IQ-superior Jewish elite.

    • Replies: @German_reader
    , @dfordoom
  301. utu says:
    @Swedish Family

    Israel Shamir was right when he wrote that mass immigration should be opposed on principle, no matter whom it involves.

    Exactly.

  302. Seraphim says:
    @German_reader

    @the tone of a lot of pro-Brexit sentiment irritating… if Britain isn’t a European country, what is it?

    The question is whether they know what it is. It certainly has to do with the delusions of imperial grandeur and the ‘splendid isolation’ which affected the collective psyche of the British after the ‘Brexit’ of Henry VIII’s Reformation, consolidated by the intoxicating dreams of ‘White-Anglo-Saxon’ superiority (the secularized sub-product of the Reformation).
    The ‘splendid isolation’ meant that Britain engaged in a long drawn policy of subverting the Continental Powers and snatching their colonies (Spain, France). It is actually the beginning of the ‘Great Game’ against Russia, the emerging Power that put a roadblock in the ways of British expansion.
    It engaged in the active sabotaging and dismantling of the ‘Concert of Europe’ created under the aegis of Russia by the ‘Dancing Congress’ of Vienna, fomenting unrest and revolutions, ultimately directed at Russia. It had the unintended consequences of helping the raise of Germany and Japan, which quickly became serious competitors. It was then that Britain rediscovered its ‘Europeanity’ and suspended its ‘hybrid war’ against Russia, playing Germany against Russia and Russia against Germany. But the war(s) in which Britain had to participate let it prostrate. But they had the Americans whom they induced into the ‘Round Table’ of Anglo-Saxon superiority in reserve. It was fine now to become again ‘Europeans’ as long as they were pulling the strings. It was great to have all the rights of the ‘Europeans’ but none of their obligations!
    It is disconcerting (to say the least) that the Brexiters are irked by the immigration of white Christian East Europeans, but had no objections against the immigration of their ‘colored’ (mostly Muslims) former colonial subjects!

  303. dfordoom says: • Website
    @German_reader

    There’s a delusional quality to it, with all that talk about global Britain, and even about re-acquiring military bases in distant corners of the globe, which just seems extremely anachronistic and more driven by imperial nostalgia than any serious consideration of national interests.

    The British have never accepted the loss of the Empire, and even more importantly the loss of Great Power status. The foreign policy (especially their pathetic fantasy of the Special Relationship with the United States) is driven by daydreams of recapturing Great Power status.

    The Empire was from the mid-19th century on always a substitute for true national greatness. Britain was a poor country with an inefficient and shambolic industrial base. The Empire was a way of making the poor feel better about their wretched lives.

    And above all, there’s no serious discussion at all about Britain’s mostly self-inflicted problems with mass immigration and multiculturalism, instead there might be even more non-European immigration (since even some Tories are claiming that one of the biggest problems with the EU is that it isn’t pro-diversity enough and meant “racist” preferences for Poles and other white Europeans in immigration, lol).

    Agreed. Brexit will lead to an acceleration of Third World immigration.

    I don’t see how there will ever be positive change or even an honest debate in Britain, along with Sweden it’s probably one of the most hopeless cases in Europe (though West Germany isn’t far behind).

    Britain is definitely a lost cause.

  304. @utu

    While you know it you still think that going after the immigrants w/o touching the elites may do the job.

    Why do you think I’m in favour of “not touching the elites”? If I were in charge of creating a political strategy, I’d relentlessly hammer the business lobbyists who are promoting mass immigration, e.g. Germany’s Bertelsmann foundation
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bertelsmann_Stiftung
    which is well-connected with the Merkel regime and always churns out dubious studies arguing for immigration and “market-friendly reforms” should be the target of something like Hungary’s anti-Soros campaign (problem of course is, one needs a lot of money for that). One could easily present these people as selfish plutocrats who want to destroy national cohesion and the welfare state for their own gain, hiding behind a laughable pretense of humanitarianism.
    One could also target specific managers who have made pro-immigration statements for shaming campaigns.
    I agree with you that it’s a bit misguided only to bash immigrants which can be made to look like kicking down against defenseless victims (though that’s a misrepresentation too).

  305. dfordoom says: • Website
    @iffen

    In reference to globalism and control of the border, I think they would be better off out of the EU.

    The problem for the British is not the EU. It’s their own vicious ruling class. That ruling class intends to turn Britain into a rainbow unicorn multi-culti paradise with lots of cheap labour.

    Britain’s enemies are not in Brussels. Britain’s enemies are in Whitehall.

    • Replies: @Mitleser
  306. Beckow says:
    @German_reader

    …powerless observers

    I think not. I run a small EU country through my minions. Any day now I plan to pull a Guaido, like that brownish guy in Venezuela, and make it official. Keep an eye on this space…

    • LOL: German_reader
  307. dfordoom says: • Website
    @utu

    It is different in the US. The anti-immigration movement can’t exclude Blacks. In the US the only winning strategy would be by getting Blacks on the anti-immigration side. But this won’t happen as long as the white anti-immigration side is mostly libertarian, HBDist and IQists consoling themselves by repetitive chants of their IQ superiority with a simultaneous often unwitting homage to their IQ-superior Jewish elite.

    Obviously true. But on a personal level the only thing that sustains most alt-righters is believing that they’re superior to the darkies, and believing that they themselves belong to the high IQ cognitive elite.

    People choose their political beliefs (and HBD and IQ-fetishism are both political beliefs) based on their own personal emotional needs. They’re not going to give up those beliefs.

    HBD/IQ-ism is another secular substitute religion. It has its own gallery of holy martyrs (like St James Watson), it has its own version of Sin (the Sin of Blank Slatism), it has its prophets (the Blessed Steve Sailer, HBD’s John the Baptist). It has its Holy Scriptures (The Bell Curve etc).

    • Replies: @Beckow
    , @iffen
  308. dfordoom says: • Website
    @German_reader

    since in large parts of Western Europe nationalism/populism seems to be stuck at a certain level (about 15% in Germany)

    That seems to be the case everywhere. Nationalism/populism makes big gains initially and then hits a ceiling. And the ceiling is always too low to allow any chance of gaining actual power, or even share of actual power.

    Nationalism/populism on its own simply has very little electoral appeal. The reality is that most people don’t care enough about such issues to persuade them to change their vote.

    Which would seem to indicate that if nationalists/populists don’t find some allies they’re doomed to political irrelevance. A broad front would seem to be required.

    Trump is not a counter-example. He was elected mostly because of economic issues. Had he campaigned purely on the Wall and anti-immigration issues he would not have carried a single state.

    • Replies: @utu
    , @Hyperborean
  309. Beckow says:
    @dfordoom

    …HBD/IQ-ism is another secular substitute religion…It has its own gallery of holy martyrs (like St James Watson), it has its own version of Sin…

    Right. At this rate you might as well pick any textbook and declare it a ‘secular substitute religion‘. Try Organic Chemistry, or maybe Macroeconomics, talking about holy prophets doesn’t get any more religious than economics.

    I understand your point and there is an element of self-defeating narcissism in the modern nationalist right. But it is very mild compared to what the identity progressives and the globo-baloney side serves up daily and a lot more prominently. Having a bit of an IQ fat head seems harmless in comparison.

    In US the biggest loser – by far – of the open border policy have been the Blacks. They might have psychological reasons for refusing to see it, or we might be back to what you deride as the ‘IQ fetish’. Something similar is true about most women – not the feminist elite, but most women in the West have dramatically worsened their standing with open borders and lack of normal family formation. It would be nice if they would get their self-interest, but they just don’t, and that has been shown repeatedly. They know enough to make a choice, and they choose the globalist left. If you can explain it, please do.

    At the end of the day our fate is not in the stars, it is in the choices we make. Everything else is just consequence management.

    • Replies: @utu
    , @dfordoom
  310. utu says:
    @dfordoom

    Trump is not a counter-example. He was elected mostly because of economic issues. Had he campaigned purely on the Wall and anti-immigration issues he would not have carried a single state.

    Exactly. The same goes for Hitler. If he campaigned solely on Jews he would get nowhere. Populism is populist when it attracts people and only economic anti-establishment message can do it. Just talking about immigrants that they are scary and that they smell or that they have low IQ will not work in this Zeitgeist. The only beneficiary from all the talk about the Wall is Israel gaining more support from the new right. If Trump’s administration could not bring itself to talk about penalizing the employers of illegals by enforcing the existing laws and that Trump’s DOJ did not increase the enforcement it tells you only that this is just a show and the business class is running it. It is the Chamber of Commerce Republicans who define the immigration policy not the leftist useful idiots who chant that “no human is illegal” or “borders are evil.” The noises made by the alt-right which is mostly HBDist and IQists and predominantly libertarian is just a side show that helps to reinforce the identity politics deployed by the left against everybody. Inculcating the young generations since 1980’s with libertarianism caused complete lobotomization of the part of brain responsible for thinking in terms of economic politics. It is the best safeguard against populism. The bottom line is that libertarian IQists are useful idiots of the ruling class. They think that they wage a war but they do not know who is the enemy in this war.

    • Agree: dfordoom
  311. @dfordoom

    Which would seem to indicate that if nationalists/populists don’t find some allies they’re doomed to political irrelevance. A broad front would seem to be required.

    Trump is not a counter-example. He was elected mostly because of economic issues. Had he campaigned purely on the Wall and anti-immigration issues he would not have carried a single state.

    Economics is part of the ‘populist’ part. But most European nationalist parties already fulfill this (even if this takes different forms in different countries).

    Non-nationalist or even anti-nationalist populists also have a barrier. The growing predominance of the Lega over rhe Five Star Movement and the mass conversion of Die Linke supporters to the AfD in East Germany suggests however that when directly competing there is no definite chance that vapid ‘popular-frontism’ will prevail.

  312. @Dmitry

    A lot of Israeli policy in relation to Arabs is extremely liberal and multicultural. And Israeli method of military action, is perceived more as weakness by many Arabs since at least the 1990s.

    But that’s not how Europeans see it, and I doubt that is how Arabs see it either. Most people will hear about Israeli soldiers shooting yet another Arab or Israel bragging about another aerial bombing campaign.

    There could be some really postmodernist combinations in some countries like France, such as Muslim parties of the political right.

    France seems like the worst example to follow.

    Why, France? And, that seems unlikely given the setup of the French political system.

    I am not sure what you mean by ‘postmodernist combinations’ but the Netherlands already has this absolutely filthy ‘Denk’ party that combines deceitful multiculturalism with acting as Erdogan’s arm in Holland.

  313. utu says:
    @Beckow

    Try Organic Chemistry – Even though chemistry has its root in alchemy it is a science while IQism and associated with it psychometry is a para science at best. It is a cargo cult where they pretend to imitate the moves real scientists do thinking it will produce science. Look at the group masturbation to the new paper by Kirkegaard and the fabulous Woodley of Menee, Miny and Moe. They published it in a journal that they created. It is in the first issue of the first volume. No other papers were published there yet. You can’t get you drivel published anywhere, you create a journal. Nowadays it is easy. That’s what you do in a cargo cult para science. The factor analysis they invented without much supervision of real mathematicians is like alchemy. It works, I mean you get the desired results if you follow the recipe establish by Sense or Pearson. Do it in the full moon night while facing to the East. So they get their g. But if you tried to do the honest to god principal component analysis you would not be able to reproduce their results.

    • Replies: @Beckow
  314. @Dmitry

    For these Nobel Prize winning writers looking at Russia – the balance relative to their political views, should perhaps be slightly better for Russia than America.

    But most people within the cultural sphere of America won’t see it that way.

    Except for the open borders point which is ignored, I can easily predict their riposte to your points.

    And a lot of them (like many Americans and Europeans) ‘hate-love’ America anyway.

  315. dfordoom says: • Website
    @Beckow

    Something similar is true about most women – not the feminist elite, but most women in the West have dramatically worsened their standing with open borders and lack of normal family formation. It would be nice if they would get their self-interest, but they just don’t, and that has been shown repeatedly. They know enough to make a choice, and they choose the globalist left. If you can explain it, please do.

    That’s easy. They don’t vote for the Right because they think Rightists are ugly and vicious and cruel and generally nasty. On the whole they’re correct. Neocon warmongers are genuinely loathsome. The corporate whores on the mainstream right who think that the only issue really worth fighting for is tax cuts for the rich really are deeply unpleasant people. The lunatic fringe of the alt-right contains some pretty disturbing people. So women vote Left because it’s nicer.

    There’s also social conformity, and nothing matters more to women than that. If they voted for the Right lots of people would defriend them on facebook. They wouldn’t get any more Likes! And celebrities vote Left, and if that’s not a good reason for voting Left I don’t know what is.

    And globalism sounds warm and cuddly and feminine. Nationalism sounds threatening and scary, Wasn’t Hitler a nationalist?

    If you want women to vote for your party you need a leader who is warm and sensitive and caring and sharing. Or totally dishy. Preferably both. Somebody women would like to have as a lover, or as a father. But the good kind of father. The sort who buys his princess a pony. And you need to talk about stuff other than war or tax cuts or how smelly Mexicans are.

    • Replies: @peterAUS
    , @Beckow
    , @Mitleser
  316. peterAUS says:
    @dfordoom

    If you want women to vote for your party you need a leader who is warm and sensitive and caring and sharing. Or totally dishy. Preferably both. Somebody women would like to have as a lover, or as a father.

    Probably true for most of Western women. Safe and comfortable life does that.

    Don’t think it’s true for women in general.

    Perhaps you haven’t seen, in real, women who lost or were likely to lose, their loved ones and/or their homes. My impression was, is and always will be, they want leaders who are miles away from being warm and sensitive. They won’t like a lover or father, but a destroyer of the other “party”.

    My 2 cents, anyway.

    • Replies: @Beckow
  317. I know Poles are presented as having been disillusioned by working in the UK and thus become more ‘based’ but I am wondering a bit.

    Further suggesting that housing and immediate cultural factors are important in the behavior of lower-class White women, it is interesting to note that Black men have also reproduced to a significant degree with White immigrants from continental Europe. The Economist notes that “most of the 21,000 children born to Polish mothers in 2012 had Polish fathers; but of the rest, 23% had African or Asian fathers.” Remarkably then, almost one in four “Polish” births in Britain involve a Black or Indian/Pakistani father.

    https://www.theoccidentalobserver.net/2017/12/08/on-the-rise-of-mixed-race-britain/

  318. Beckow says:
    @utu

    I get it, still not the same.

    My general rule of thumb is that religions don’t do numbers. The main religious texts don’t have any numbers, just endless words. Science, even bad science, has a lot of numbers.

    Imperfect, and there are exceptions (Scientologists?), but as a guideline it suffices. IQ is an imprecise metric, but it is quantifiable and it has numerical behaviour. So for me not a religion.

    • Replies: @dfordoom
  319. Beckow says:
    @dfordoom

    Solid explanation and I generally agree. Although I would not consider neocons or corporate whores to be national conservatives. Unfortunately they get lumped in a lot.

    My observation would be that Rightist women are better looking, but that is neither here nor there. There is also the long-term consequence for most non-elite women of the cuddly, caring and sharing globalist philosophy: they lose out. The same economic, social and cultural rules apply to them. Looking for a kind leader for the national side is a fool’s errand – it is all about understanding the limits of charity, that’s the core principle: ‘we care more about us than about everybody else‘. Any kindness would be fake.

    Increased polarization on the national-global axis will eventually shift most people towards the nationalist side, including women. But it might be too late by then.

    • Replies: @dfordoom
  320. Beckow says:
    @peterAUS

    Exactly, one way to get women to show some in-group loyalty is by creating an us versus them conflict. It is a pretty costly way, but how does one deal with emotional morons who want to hug the ‘world’?

    • Replies: @Bardon Kaldian
  321. dfordoom says: • Website
    @Beckow

    My general rule of thumb is that religions don’t do numbers. The main religious texts don’t have any numbers, just endless words. Science, even bad science, has a lot of numbers.

    You have to remember that the followers of these secular religions don’t want to think of their belief systems as religions. Lots of numbers makes their belief systems look like science. The numbers may be entirely meaningless but they’re reassuring. I’m not a follower of a medieval superstition – look I have graphs and charts! I have spreadsheets! It must be science.

    Perhaps a better analogy would be with belief systems like astrology (lots of numbers!), Kabbalah, Hermeticism, numerology, alchemy and the various late 19th and early 20th century systems of ritual magick (think Aleister Crowley).

    It’s interesting that the Scientific Revolution grew out of alchemy and magic and astrology. In the late 20h century science started to return to its roots. Actual science was irritating and depressing because it often gave the wrong answers. After all the whole point of intellectual enquiry is to confirm one’s established prejudices.

    HBD and IQ science is the Right’s answer to sociology and psychology and anthropology and climate science. The Right now has its own pseudosciences, and they give the correct answers!

    Supply and demand works in science. If there’s a demand for science that gives a particular answer then someone will come along and supply that science. It’s all about giving the customer what he wants.

    But what all these occult and pseudosciences have in common is that their adherents follow them with religious zeal. Doubt is not allowed. Doubters are heretics. Because we’re naturally religious creatures and if we don’t have religion then we will transform any belief system into a passable imitation of a religion.

    • Replies: @utu
  322. AaronB says:
    @German_reader

    You’re right that the current system benefits the new immigrants, and of course that’s by design. But I do wonder if you can’t form an alliance nevertheless, by also offering to benefit them, and in a way that affects their children in the long term (who, at a certain point, will be exploited. That’s why they’ve been brought in)

    But you may have a point about the recent immigrants to Germany – they are too few and too recent, not yet politically or economically entrenched, and so it may not be necessary to include them in any alliance. It requires thought.

    But the larger point stands – a broad based economic front with a communitarian angle cutting across racial and ethnic lines and including all large reasonably entrenched communities (realism), emphasizing the positive over the negative, and discarding the HBD and IQ crap (purely negative emotions), and directed against the current elite set up. In the US this would definitely include Hispanics.

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
  323. dfordoom says: • Website
    @Beckow

    There is also the long-term consequence for most non-elite women of the cuddly, caring and sharing globalist philosophy: they lose out.

    Agreed. But that’s where the social conformity kicks in. Most will support globalism even if it harms them in most ways, because socially conformity is the ultimate self-interest for women.

  324. AaronB says:
    @Beckow

    But it is also a reality that it is precisely those recent migrants who push the hardest for their compatriots from the Third World – their relatives and friends – to be allowed to come in. Without their help the number of migrants would be a lot lower. How can one ally with a group whose main objective is to do the very opposite of what needs to be done?

    All alliances are formed by making it in every party’s self-interest. The leaders and elites of these immigrant communities can be offered full national acceptance and economic assistance (I know, but it can be phased out). They can also be made to understand that further immigration will harm them and their children economically (lots of Hispanics in the US don’t want more immigration), and that their children, the next generation, will feel exploited by their reduced status and opportunities.

    It is mathematically impossible to form any economic block to help workers with an unbalanced supply-demand of labor. When there is an over-supply of labor no amount of ‘organising’, or holding hands can succeed. Any economic progress has to start with controlling borders and the endless influx of cheap labor. If you don’t get that, you don’t understand any of this.

    Sure, that’s exactly why the elites are bringing in a huge supply of labor and fomenting racial resentments.

    Starting by ending the influx of cheap labor would be the ideal solution, but what if the elites have made that impossible, and the more you focus purely on that, the more you play into elite hands.

    What if strategy requires of us paradoxical thinking – to end the influx you must paradoxically ally with whoever is already in, as the first stage in a multi-stage plan. Strategic alliances can even be reversed. They can be a stage.

    It is exactly the self-serving migrant communities and their racially conscious leaders who stir up most of the negative stuff. To expect the long passive and constantly demonised European native population to not respond is naive.

    Of course its naive, which is why that response is deliberately being engineered by the elites, who are anything but naive.

    Of course the migrant communities are self-serving – the task is to make their self-serving behavior favor you not the elites.

    Its just realism.

    • Replies: @AaronB
  325. AaronB says:
    @AaronB

    Good strategy requires flexibility, many shifts and turns, reversals and about faces, unpalatable alliances, etc. Also hard eyed realism, dealing with the cards you’re dealt unsentimentally, and a sharp eye for exploiting circumstances as they change.

    Look at how the Left allied with the white working class only to make an abrupt reversal the moment circumstances dictated. That’s flexible.

    Machiavelli was perceptive and correct about how politics works – he offered his advice in an effort to do good, to further peace and stability, but he was not sentimental.

    Part of the problem with the alt-right is that mentally they are straightforward – I think things like genetic determinism encourages a straightforward (i.e stupid), approach to a world that requires mental flexibility.

    Of course, one may not be willing to do what it takes to politically succeed, and that’s legitimate, but then one shouldn’t play at politics.

    • Replies: @Ender
    , @Ender
  326. @AaronB

    But the larger point stands – a broad based economic front with a communitarian angle cutting across racial and ethnic lines and including all large reasonably entrenched communities (realism), emphasizing the positive over the negative, and discarding the HBD and IQ crap (purely negative emotions), and directed against the current elite set up. In the US this would definitely include Hispanics.

    In theory this is a ‘wonderful’ idea, in reality pandering to metics has proven to be futile and conservative and nationalist parties have little to show for it after decades of doing it.

    One can not outbid people who can promise rhe world, rather one must strike a firm path of independence.

    And even if it could somehow work this multicultural alliance, as a French proponent of this strategy whose name eludes me noted, would have to accept a lot of primitive Saracenic customs that most Europeans, even liberal ones (though they won’t say so in public), are averse to.

    And then there is the fact that states like Turkey, Morocco, Qatar etc. use mosques and other religious instruments to agitate insurrection against the autochthonous people in European lands. These will have to be shut down even if it means upsetting people.

    • Replies: @AaronB
    , @German_reader
  327. utu says:
    @dfordoom

    After all the whole point of intellectual enquiry is to confirm one’s established prejudices.

    Excellent point.

  328. AaronB says:
    @Hyperborean

    Conservatives are in thrall to market economics and individualism – they never offered anyone community, neither whites not immigrants. Most people, especially high quality people, find conservative market worship repugnant.

    would have to accept a lot of primitive Saracenic customs that most Europeans, even liberal ones (though they won’t say so in public), are averse to.

    In the short term, as realpolitik. As immigrant numbers stabilize, they will tend to assimilate, especially if offered national acceptance. Time heals much.

    These will have to be shut down even if it means upsetting people.

    Can be done if support is there.

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
  329. Ender says:
    @AaronB

    Well this is just a thought experiment, but can the US government really put down a full fledged armed revolt by conservative whites without turning the country into a parking lot? Especially if other minority groups like blacks and Hispanics join in the fun?

  330. Ender says:
    @AaronB

    Well this is just a thought experiment, but can the US government really put down a full fledged armed revolt by conservative whites without turning the country into a parking lot? Especially if other minority groups like blacks and Hispanics join in the fun?

    • Replies: @AaronB
    , @dfordoom
  331. Ender says:

    I mean if the US government ends up winning after a few decades but if 40 percent of the civilian population is killed and 90 of infrastructure and industrial capacity is laid waste then that is basically a loss.

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
  332. @AaronB

    Conservatives are in thrall to market economics and individualism – they never offered anyone community, neither whites not immigrants. Most people, especially high quality people, find conservative market worship repugnant.

    That ‘conservatism’ revolves around the classical liberal concepts of individualism and the free market is a good example of how distorted metapolitics are in the Anglosphere.

    The dynamics in Europe are, despite the attempts of our xenophilic masters, still different and not really appropriate for an American analysis.

    In the short term, as realpolitik. As immigrant numbers stabilize, they will tend to assimilate, especially if offered national acceptance. Time heals much.

    No, see, that is the point. They don’t. One can win support from East Asians and Hindus due to shared enemies, but low-performing nationalities are useless.

    We can’t make them perform better on the job market. We can’t make them commit less crime (and thus get in more trouble with the police). We can’t make them better academically.

    We simply can’t fix them. We can’t turn them into ‘good Europeans’. This is an obvious yet profound truth that needs to break through the shell of denial.

    And they will always resent us for it, no matter how many billions are wasted on social programmes, how much ‘positive discrimination’ is implemented, how much standards are lowered to accomodate them, how much ‘multicultural culture’ is introduced or how much the state and ordinary people genuflect before their ‘concerns’ and ‘comfortableness’.

    Can be done if support is there.

    The only reason European governments will ever handle the problem is because of nationalist pressure, like in Austria and France.

    The green line is the nationalist Lega, while the yellow line is the vague populist party M5S during the course they have held power.

    If it was primarily about gibs and not identitarianism, why the cross? As bin Laden said, when evaluating two horses, people will instinctively bet on the strong, assertive horse.

    —-

    I am confused about your behaviour. As Iffen noted, who took over your account? Why are you suddenly being comprehensible and copying Utu?

    Is this simply another one of your chameleon games to demoralise people?

    • Replies: @LostHopeless
    , @AaronB
    , @utu
    , @utu
  333. @Ender

    I mean if the US government ends up winning after a few decades but if 40 percent of the civilian population is killed and 90 of infrastructure and industrial capacity is laid waste then that is basically a loss.

    I doubt an armed insurgency will last for decades. Either it is crushed quickly or the situation turns into a ‘proper’ civil war, with all the resulting entanglements.

  334. @Hyperborean

    Conservatives are in thrall to market economics and individualism – they never offered anyone community, neither whites not immigrants. Most people, especially high quality people, find conservative market worship repugnant.

    As an Italian american in tech, I’ve dealt with enough of those east Asians and Hindus to tell that they are, beneath the thin veneer of civility, highly racial and ethnically nepotistic. Despite all the “high skill” [much debatable in case of the Indians] they are extremely clannish, racist and have a lot of underlying rage and hatred for whitey. In the case of those low IQ dot indians, many of them are creepy and ugly and have a weird superiority/inferiority complex [robert lindsay had a nice blog on them which has been taken down] . They’ve taken over entire companies and are facing a lot of discrimination related lawsuits [Oracle and Cisco are the most pronounced]. Too little too late as most of the judges in California will NEVER side with whites. Now that we’ve got jayapals, haleys and bhararas on the panel, they’ve come out of the woodwork and their rage [probably stemming from racial resentment] is out in the open.

    They’ve created lobbies now that continuously keep pushing for more legal immigration. The special people have taken it as their sacred duty to replace the WASP with the hindu as their choice of technocrats. The hindus too have a great admiration for the chosens and take every opportunity to weaken the fabric of america that (((they))) provide them with.

    So when someone talks about “quality” third worlders being like whites [open, honest and just], I have a hard time believing as I’ve seen them up close. No matter their IQ [again, the hindus have a mere 83] they will always side with their own and play an out-group strategy with us. Once their numbers reach a crtical mass, the hostility comes out for all to see. Sadly too many stupid libertarians fall for the “muh capitalism” and “muh freemarkets” BS that is there by (((design)))

    Race is nation. Demographics is destiny and demographics is king. Don’t fall for the (((libertarian))) crap buddies.

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
    , @utu
  335. @LostHopeless

    Of course you are right there are problems. I was basing it on a ‘best case’ scenario given that Chinese and Hindu were the only non-whites during the UK election to vote near 50/50 for the Tories (the other groups usually around 30/70) and that the Tories have adopted a ‘respectable’ position regarding identity.

    • Replies: @LostHopeless
  336. AaronB says:
    @Hyperborean

    The dynamics in Europe are, despite the attempts of our xenophilic masters, still different and not really appropriate for an American analysis.

    This is true, but I’m actually travelling right now and speaking to a lot of Europeans. I am being told that Anglo style neoliberalism is making headway in Europe, and wealth inequality is increasing even in Scandinavian countries, and a more Anglo attitude towards money is emerging.

    And isn’t that part of the European elites drive towards immigration – part of a shift towards neoliberalism.

    I think European elites want to push Europe in an Anglo direction, and immigration is part of that plan.

    We simply can’t fix them. We can’t turn them into ‘good Europeans’. This is an obvious yet profound truth that needs to break through the shell of denial.

    You may be right, that you cannot fix them so long as they remain a distinct community with a separate culture with economic interests different than your own. What I had in mind was gradual intermixing, so that over the decades they cease being a distinct ethnic group. This has happened many times in history, and once immigration stabilizes and a national community emerges, it’s not as difficult as you think.

    Even if this group mixes into the national polity, it may remain a lower status group. But this isn’t unusual. I’m in Asia now, and each country has several distinct regions and groups that are deeply integrated into the national polity but remain sort of lower status. These groups still feel themselves to be part of the national project and not outsiders, and are deeply integrated into the communal and economic life of the nation and identify with it. They are a bit rougher than the higher classes, but they are not seriously unruly.

    The final option is that these groups remain unassimilated, a thorn in your side – this is unlikely if immigration stabilizes and a real national consciousness emerges based on economic equity (everyone has a stake in the nation), but even so, a temporary alliance with these groups may be good strategy, or at least ignoring them for the time as a distraction and focusing on building a coalition of other groups.

    And they will always resent us for it, no matter how many billions are wasted on social programmes, how much ‘positive discrimination’ is implemented, how much standards are lowered to accomodate them, how much ‘multicultural culture’ is introduced or how much the state and ordinary people genuflect before their ‘concerns’ and ‘comfortableness’.

    The fact is that in a national community the weaker members do get special treatment, but the grotesque forms this has taken so far is because the elites are trying to foment racial resentment and social division.

    Some degree of ethnic resentment is inevitable – some degree of social division is inevitable even in the most ethnically homogenous nations (civil wars happen) – but in a healthy nation based on inclusive communitarian values and economic equity, it doesn’t have to be grotesque.

    The only reason European governments will ever handle the problem is because of nationalist pressure, like in Austria and France.

    Yes, but if immigration stops and immigrants already there feel included in the national project, then broad popular support for cutting off ties yo the old country will exist. New allegiances will emerge.

    Finally, even if this applies more to America with its Hispanics and Asians than Europe, the basic premise needs to be adapted to local conditions.

    I am confused about your behaviour. As Iffen noted, who took over your account? Why are you suddenly being comprehensible and copying Utu?

    First of all, I have said these things before and there have been periods when I emphasized these things. But everyone has multiple sides to their personality, and it is only an HBD myth that behavior is genetically determined, stable over time, and invariant in all environments.

    • Replies: @iffen
    , @Hyperborean
  337. AaronB says:
    @Ender

    At the moment, the US government can probably retain the allegiance of most of the military and enough people in general to have a preponderance of force.

    The alt-right offers nothing that will appeal to enough people to counterbalance this – and if you want to get a sense of the human quality, read the comments on Vox Day blog (sorry to keep on bringing him up, but he’s very typical of the quality of the American alt-right). Its the dregs.

    Now, if a new movement emerges based on economic equity and communitarian values, then all bets are off.

    But were not there yet, not even close. Were stuck in retarded nonsense like HBD and IQ and genetic determinism which saps morale.

  338. @Hyperborean

    Just like the US, old blighty has a uniparty system masquerading as a choice and voting for the tories is as good a vote as voting for labor. Theresa may is a big fuc**** example. She forgot about the brexit vote like it never happened. That shows your vote has NO power to change anything. In fact it is acting as a safety valve for suppressed emotions and nothing more

    It’s controlled by the same (((cabal))) that controls the US uniparty. They make the proles fight for made up issues like abortion or gun control while important pressing matters like immigration and the welfare/warfare state (invade the world, invite the world) is lost.

    A lot of people are sick tired of the forever wars for Israel and the MIC and voted for a change. However seeing elliot abrams, the one and only original neoCOHEN, besides trump was a very depressing thing that laid to rest the much vaunted 4D chess. Abrams was the one who was very instrumental in deposing Gaddafi, plunging libya (once Africa’s most prosperous country) into a civil war. Now Libya has slave traders and sub saharan africans use it to reach italy. Luckily, salvini is in but i’m unsure how long (((they))) will let him be.

    However, merely focusing on the immigrants and leaving out the (((enablers))) is a loosing strategy, unless you have the mostly white enforcers (the local police and the judiciary) sufficiently red pilled. One should work at red pilling them as well as the fools who still volunteer to kill and die for our “bestest” ally in the middle east [the US military]. Unless that happens in sufficient numbers [red pilling of those who form the brawn of the (((state)))], some sort of compromise with the immigrants in exchange for an immediate enforced immigration moratorium [for like 10 years] will give whites sufficient breathing space to organize and strategize. These are the ONLY ways I think which have a small chance of succeeding. All else is just blowing hot air and nothing more. RED PILL the US army and the police NOW

  339. @Beckow

    You don’t. The world deals with them. Lotsa new prospective Darwin award winners…..

    Western individuals (if they’re “individuals” at all) have become so deranged I don’t know what to say. Here’s what happened not long ago here in Croatia (google translate, I’m too lazy to bother with grammar):

    https://www.vecernji.hr/premium/mazenje-poskoka-i-vabljenje-migranata-1278701

    In a pile of cool news this week, highlighted a bizarre episode that leads to rather dull conclusions about the stage of civilization in which we have already steeped in quite a bit. Namely, a young Dutch woman on Biokovo mountain resort was bitten by viper as she went to cuddle him. After a timely emergency intervention, the patient was on a visit to KBC Split Clinic for several days. Luckily, the snake was young and emergency aid was very fast, otherwise the meeting with reality would end with death.

    Why would someone go to embrace the terrifying and disgusting snake? The explanation lies in the distorted, Disneyesque image of the world in which there is no real evil and danger. Viper has always been what it is, the real cause of a short relationship with Biokovo’s life-changing event is life in the world without responsibility, where everything is good, everything is cool, exciting and all you need is “love.” The biggest life drama is a pimple or a kilogram of surplus. It is the world of Nietzsche’s last man who blinks with his ordeal and hops across the ground.

    • Replies: @Beckow
  340. Mitleser says:
    @German_reader

    if Britain isn’t a European country, what is it?

    It is an Anglo(sphere) country.

  341. Mitleser says:
    @dfordoom

    True, but Whitehall has always been pro-EU, hence Brüssel is an enemy by association.

    • Replies: @dfordoom
  342. Mitleser says:
    @dfordoom

    If you want women to vote for your party you need a leader who is warm and sensitive and caring and sharing. Or totally dishy. Preferably both. Somebody women would like to have as a lover, or as a father. But the good kind of father. The sort who buys his princess a pony. And you need to talk about stuff other than war or tax cuts or how smelly Mexicans are.

    Until 1930 women remained unlikely to vote for the Nazi Party. Moreover, in the presidential election of 1932 a clear majority of women preferred Hindenburg to Hitler. However, the early 1930s did see a narrowing of the gap between male and female voting patterns, especially in Protestant areas. Indeed, in some of these by July 1932 the NSDAP was winning a higher percentage of the female to male vote. In that month some 6.5 million women voted Nazi, many of them probably with few or no previous political ties. Where they came from the working class, they were likely to be non-unionised textile operatives or domestic workers.

    http://www.johndclare.net/Weimar6_Geary.htm

  343. iffen says:
    @AaronB

    Some degree of ethnic resentment is inevitable – some degree of social division is inevitable even in the most ethnically homogenous nations (civil wars happen) – but in a healthy nation based on inclusive communitarian values and economic equity, it doesn’t have to be grotesque.

    Please, I beg you, please send me some of your current stash.

    Its just realism.

    Run AB, run! Realism is the gateway drug to materialism and you will not be able to unsee what your eyes will see.

  344. @AaronB

    This is true, but I’m actually travelling right now and speaking to a lot of Europeans. I am being told that Anglo style neoliberalism is making headway in Europe, and wealth inequality is increasing even in Scandinavian countries, and a more Anglo attitude towards money is emerging.

    Scandinavian countries are unequal in wealth already, it is income that is mostly equal. But inequality increasing couldn’t possibly have anything at all with the fact that poor people are being imported, could it?

    Proportional representation means that libertarians tend to form their parties instead of being forced to share space with contradictory partners, so they do not corrupt parties as much. People know what they get by voting for them.

    Regarding greater acceptance, weren’t you claiming that ‘conservatives’ suffer from ‘the nasty party’ effect? So your electoral point would then be non-applicable.

    Even if this group mixes into the national polity, it may remain a lower status group. But this isn’t unusual. I’m in Asia now, and each country has several distinct regions and groups that are deeply integrated into the national polity but remain sort of lower status. These groups still feel themselves to be part of the national project and not outsiders, and are deeply integrated into the communal and economic life of the nation and identify with it. They are a bit rougher than the higher classes, but they are not seriously unruly.

    Latin America shows miscegenation and racial divides can easily co-exist and Latin Americans at least nominally share the same faith and culture. Furthermore economic and racial conflicts tend to become intertwined in a ‘plurinational’ state.

    a real national consciousness emerges based on economic equity (everyone has a stake in the nation)

    This sounds like socialist patriotism. The predictable result when the economy slows down – Yugoslavia.

    The fact is that in a national community the weaker members do get special treatment, but the grotesque forms this has taken so far is because the elites are trying to foment racial resentment and social division.

    Metics get special treatment… to spark racial tensions. I suppose censorship and jailing people who post critical things online is also a plan to encourage racial resentment from their betters?

    Honestly, this is almost as stupid as a comment I read once about how Merkel’s invitation of millions of muslims was all part of a 666D chess plan to cause a German revolution by enraged German patriots and liberate Germany from Israel’s thumb.

    some degree of social division is inevitable even in the most ethnically homogenous nations (civil wars happen)

    It is not at all inevitable. Homogeneous authoritarian countries like Japan and Finland successfully eradicated social deviance in the past. Your civil war comparison is also flawed. Homogeneous countries are far likely to remain intact after a civil war than ethnically heterogeneous countries.

    First of all, I have said these things before and there have been periods when I emphasized these things. But everyone has multiple sides to their personality, and it is only an HBD myth that behavior is genetically determined, stable over time, and invariant in all environments.

    Do you enjoy torching those strawmen?

    Should we compare the first comments here of, say, German Reader, Iffen or Neutral with their current worldview and style of writing?

    Even if they are several years old I am sure they will generally resemble their current self.

    There is no reason why ‘personality can shift over time’ and ‘personality remains generally stable or will change slowly barring large changes in life’ need be contradictory.

    The fact you are used to changing your personality may say more about yourself.

    • Replies: @AaronB
  345. iffen says:
    @dfordoom

    Obviously true. But on a personal level the only thing that sustains most alt-righters is believing that they’re superior to the darkies, and believing that they themselves belong to the high IQ cognitive elite.

    People choose their political beliefs (and HBD and IQ-fetishism are both political beliefs) based on their own personal emotional needs. They’re not going to give up those beliefs.

    There is quite a bit of truth in what you have written here, but don’t confuse the adoption of genetics and psychometrics by the politically motivated for the actual sciences.

  346. @Dmitry

    TIL Potupchik is a Jewess. Is that really true? Amazed I haven’t come across that. Would have thought it’d get mentioned in nationalist circles…

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  347. Anon 2 says:
    @utu

    You’re responding to what you imagine I wrote, not to what I actually
    wrote. There are 44 million German Americans, and only 10 million
    Polish Americans (and 15 million Slavic Americans altogether), i.e., 3:1 ratio
    (actually 4:1 ratio if you include 15 million Scandinavian Americans).
    This is the reverse of the 2:1 Slav-Germanic ratio in Europe, which is
    one reason why the Germanics ultimately failed to impose their will
    on the Slavs. So there is no comparison between the two groups in the
    United States. However, this may help answer the question: why is the
    U.S. so violent in international affairs? Since, as the Romans already
    noted, the Germanics have a higher propensity to violence (due perhaps
    to the MAO-A (warrior) gene), the high representation of the Germanics
    in the U.S. population might go a long way toward explaining the violent
    U.S. behavior (highest military budget, highest number of bases, drone
    assassinations, current perpetual war, etc). And for similar reasons
    Germanics have been a problem child in Europe (e.g., continuing German
    obsession with building instruments of destruction).

    Treating human behavior as a function of two variables (IQ and aggression
    level) gives a better (although still inadequate) approximation to
    reality than being obsessed, as many people here are, with merely
    the IQ level. IMHO, since the field is still largely terra incognita, the Slavs
    display a normal (average) level of aggression, about the same as northern
    Italians; Germanics, Brits, and Jews – higher than average, and the French
    (being 1/4 Germanic) – slightly higher than average. The Polish nobility
    (incl. the aristocrats), who believed themselves to have different ancestors
    than the peasants, probably had a higher set point for aggression. Maybe
    that’s why Nietzsche loved the Polish nobles so much (and his sister claimed
    she had the papers to prove their family was descended from Polish
    nobility). In any case, since the Slavs and the Italians have a similar set
    point for aggression, it may explain why Poland and Italy have had a close
    relationship over the centuries. Copernicus studied in Italy, Zanussi is
    a famous Polish film director, and recently there has been talk about
    the Polish-Italian axis in the EU.

    Returning to the US, Polish Americans are reasonably well represented
    in Congress. There were two senators (Mikulski and Murkowski) but
    Barbara Mikulski has recently retired. After the 2018 elections, there
    are now 5-6 Polish-American congressmen (I listed them on Sailer).
    However, in general, the Americans are so aggressive that the Slavic
    Americans have indeed not been as influential in politics as they might
    have been in a more congenial civilization.

    • Replies: @Anon 2
    , @German_reader
    , @utu
  348. Ender says:

    Isn’t a more realistic model, basically the big 5 personality traits and IQ?

  349. utu says:
    @Hyperborean

    I am confused about your behaviour. As Iffen noted, who took over your account? Why are you suddenly being comprehensible and copying Utu?

    I have noticed it.

  350. Anon 2 says:
    @Anon 2

    In the Big Five Personality Traits model what I call “aggression setpoint”
    would be related to being disagreeable and extraverted

  351. @Hyperborean

    as a French proponent of this strategy whose name eludes me noted

    Alain Soral?
    I agree with you, it’s an idea which sounds nice in theory, but in reality is unlikely to work.

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
  352. utu says:
    @LostHopeless

    As an Italian american in tech, I’ve dealt with enough of those east Asians and Hindus to tell that they are, beneath the thin veneer of civility, highly racial and ethnically nepotistic.

    I agree with your observations and you sentiments but tell me how to make a cogent and effective argument based on it to do something about it. This is America. Everything what you stated in the comment was said many times about Italians in late 19 cenury and early 20 century. Read E.A. ROSS. “The Old World in the New”. It is on RU site. Let me give you a sample:

    http://www.unz.com/book/e_a_ross__the-old-world-in-the-new/

    In nothing are the two peoples so unlike as in their crimes. While northern Italy leads in fraud and chicane, southern Italy reveals a rank growth of the ferocious crimes that go with a primitive stage of civilization.

    Thanks to this perverse idea of “honor,” an Italian murder may be committed in the street in broad daylight, with dozens looking on, yet a few minutes later every spectator will deny to the police that he has seen anything. This highbinder contempt for law is reinforced by sheer terrorism. It is said that often in our courts the sudden wilting of a promising Italian witness has been brought about by the secret giving of the “death-sign,” a quick passing of the hand across the throat as if cutting.

    It is obvious that if our legal system is called upon to cope with a great volume of such crime for a long time, it will slough off certain Anglo-Saxon features and adopt the methods which alone avail in Italy, namely, state police, registry system, “special surveillance” and “admonition.”

    But the South Italians remain nearly as aloof as did the Cantonese who built the Central Pacific Railway. Navvies who leave for Naples when the ground freezes, and return in April, who huddle in a “camp” or a box-car, or herd on some “Dago Flat,” are not really in America.

    Among the foreign-born, the Italians rank lowest in adhesion to trade-unions, lowest in ability to speak English, lowest in proportion naturalized after ten years’ residence, lowest in proportion of children in school, and highest in proportion of children at work.

    Teachers agree that the children of the South Italians rank below the children of the North Italians. They hate study, make slow progress, and quit school at the first opportunity. While they take to drawing and music, they are poor in spelling and language and very weak in abstract mathematics. In the words of one superintendent, “they lack the conveniences for thinking.”

    The South Italian is volatile, unstable, soon hot, soon cool. Says one observer, “The Italian vote here is a joke. Every candidate claims it because they were ‘for’ him when he saw them. But the man who talks last to them gets their vote.” A charity worker declares that they change their minds “three steps after they have left you.” It is not surprising that such people are unreliable. Credit men pronounce them “very slippery,” and say that the Italian merchants themselves do not extend credit to them.

    The Slavs are ferocious in their cups, but none is so ready with his knife when sober as the South Italian. In railroad work other nationalities shun camps with many Italians. Contractors are afraid of them because the whole force will impulsively quit work, perhaps flare into riot, if they imagine one of their number has suffered a wrong.

    The principal of a school with four hundred Sicilian pupils observes that on the playground they are at once more passionate and more vindictive than other children.

    America has changed because of Italians for better and worse. Italians get assimilated and Americans get acculturated to Italians, i.e., Americans can stand them. You got assimilated to the point that you identify with WASPs and stand up for them (see “to replace the WASP” in your comment).

    Now as Italian American try to make a cogent argument against the immigration of Indians, Koreans and Chinese which could not be sabotaged by your Dago past. I am not trying to be difficult. I want an answer because it is needed.

  353. @Anon 2

    and recently there has been talk about
    the Polish-Italian axis in the EU.

    Salvini also recently stated that he’d be interested in a Rome-Berlin axis (of course he stated that it shouldn’t be like in that unfortunate period of history…).
    Special relations between Poland and Italy? News to me, I’d say Italian-German relations have been closer in history (even if Italians don’t like Germans much).

    • Replies: @utu
  354. utu says:
    @Hyperborean

    We simply can’t fix them. We can’t turn them into ‘good Europeans’. This is an obvious yet profound truth that needs to break through the shell of denial.

    This is a very important point. Nobody wants to address it because it leads to very unpleasant scenarios: expel them and/or kill them. Is it feasible? No it is not. Only those who are temporary residents in principle can be expelled if there is a political will. Those who are citizens will stay. How to assimilate them and prevent them from forming a hostile minority? Concentrate on this question because there are no other questions.

  355. utu says:
    @German_reader

    Do you remember Italian initiative Hexagonale?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_European_Initiative
    At the first Summit in Venice in 1990, Czechoslovakia was admitted and the Initiative was renamed Pentagonale. In 1991, with the admission of Poland it became the Hexagonale.

    It was derailed by Germany when Germany promptly recognized Slovenia and Croatia.

    I brought it up to show you that Italian political class thinks about the problem of German domination and how to weaken it.

    Back to 2019. Salvini was recently in Poland. Does it mean anything? These are just gestures and signaling w/o much substance. Poland is not in any position to make autonomous decisions as long as it is controlled by Washington and Tel Aviv.

    • Replies: @German_reader
  356. @utu

    Do you remember Italian initiative Hexagonale?

    No, but it makes sense, Italy didn’t like German reunification much and would have preferred if it didn’t happen, like Britain and France.
    I doubt though that common anti-German sentiment is enough for a close relationship between Italy and Poland, given Poland’s interest in anti-Russian projects and possibly even Mideast adventurism, which Italians probably don’t care for.

  357. utu says:
    @Anon 2

    why is theU.S. so violent in international affairs? Since, as the Romans already noted, the Germanics have a higher propensity to violence (due perhaps to the MAO-A (warrior) gene), the high representation of the Germanics in the U.S. population might go a long way toward explaining the violent U.S. behavior

    Sometimes, not too frequently, you show signs of lucidity. No this time.

  358. Beckow says:
    @Bardon Kaldian

    A rather incredible story, but not surprising.

    The world deals with them. Lotsa new prospective Darwin award winners…..

    The world is unfortunately us: we have to deal with the consequences of their idiocy, cuddliness, misguided ‘charity’, and a general inability to think straight.

    Maybe we should all be given a Darwin award for being unable to deal with this. From evolutionary adaptation perspective we are all failing.

  359. I think I’ll be on commenting hiatus for the next few weeks; I seriously need to get some work done and want to see if I can stop commenting on Unz review for some time (sounds like addiction, lol).
    Maybe I’ll be back in spring.

    • Agree: Anatoly Karlin
    • Replies: @utu
  360. @German_reader

    The “Gluck” became a unit of Russophobia on the Inosmi message boards around that time (mid-2000s). They would rate articles out of 10 Glucks.

    (Inosmi was the translation project to make foreign language articles accessible to Russians).

    I think I’ll be on commenting hiatus for the next few weeks

    Best of luck. We all appreciate your presence here, but IRL stuff should take precedence.

  361. utu says:
    @German_reader

    Good luck. Do something useful.

  362. Mikhail says: • Website

    At a local university, a friend of mine is teaching a course this semester called Liberal Democracy and Nationalism.

    George Friedman wrote an article on that very topic:

    https://geopoliticalfutures.com/nationalism-liberal-democracy/

    • Replies: @utu
  363. utu says:
    @Mikhail

    George Friedman is an interesting case. He does not come across as a typical neocon. As if he was more associated with DIA than CIA, i.e., the long term plans for American dominance rather than adventurism in the Middle East. He had uncanny prophetic powers as far as outlining the course for Eastern European nations and positioning them against Russia and Germany before Orban and before 2015 Poland’s breaking away from German influence and going 100% under the umbrella of Washington and Tel Aviv.

  364. dfordoom says: • Website
    @Ender

    Well this is just a thought experiment, but can the US government really put down a full fledged armed revolt by conservative whites without turning the country into a parking lot?

    It will take them 24 hours at the outside. Because there won’t be millions of conservative whites engaging in armed revolt. It won’t be hundreds of thousands. It will be at the most a couple of thousand, and more likely a few hundred.

    This gigantic mass of conservative whites wanting to overthrow the government doesn’t exist, except in the deluded minds of a handful of alt-righters on the internet. In such a scenario the overwhelming majority of whites, including conservative whites, will support the government against the evil racist Nazis with guns.

    It’s pure fantasy.

    • Agree: utu
    • Replies: @utu
  365. utu says:
    @dfordoom

    I met quite a few Americans who believed that only if the Eastern Europeans were armed like Americans they would have not succumbed to communism. Never heard of Red Army and NKVD apparently.

  366. dfordoom says: • Website
    @Mitleser

    True, but Whitehall has always been pro-EU, hence Brüssel is an enemy by association.

    Oh yes, Brussels is definitely evil and the EU is evil. But the concentration and virulence of evil in Whitehall is even greater.

  367. @German_reader

    Alain Soral?
    I agree with you, it’s an idea which sounds nice in theory, but in reality is unlikely to work.

    Well, I suppose Alain Soral believes this too. The one I was thinking of was a Catholic writer, but the writer himself was skeptical about the possibility it would work.

  368. Dmitry says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    TIL P******** is a Jewess. Is that really true?

    She wrote about it years ago in her old livejournal blog so I will modestly deny credit for bringing any new information.

    Amazed I haven’t come across that. Would have thought it’d get mentioned in nationalist

    Lol surely I don’t think many people are not aware – even her face is more Jewish than most native Israeli people that live in Israel.

    She vacations in Israel. But people saying she has Israeli citizenship are probably wrong. To be registered as the Israeli citizen, usually requires three months living in Israel. And the Israeli passport, requires a year of living there before they give them.

    Btw, to me she seems a lot more normal and adequate in recent years – she now mainly talks about supporting freedom of speech and animal rights.

  369. AaronB says:
    @Hyperborean

    Homogeneous authoritarian countries like Japan and Finland successfully eradicated social deviance in the past

    .

    Japan has a history of constant civil wars and civil strife of all kinds – there were longish periods of peace, but strife always returns. The dream of a perfectly harmonious world is just a dream – European history before immigration of non-whites does not exactly present a picture of social harmony. People like to act as if ethnic strife is the only source of social division. It probably isn’t even the major source.

    Japan legitimizes violence and repression today to maintain social order, its just not so obvious.

    I actually consider Japan to be a very multi-ethnic society. The pheotypical diversity is extraordinary – you have muscular brown skinned guys with square faces and round eyes who look almost Western to thin pale Chinese looking guys who are obviously of a different ethnic group. The myth of Japanese homogeneity is strong in proportion to how much it hides a multi-ethnic reality. I suspect this ethnic ferment is also why they are weirder and more creative than other Asians.

    The fact you are used to changing your personality may say more about yourself

    .

    I have not changed. Different sides of my personality come to the fore. This is true of most people, since environment is key.

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
    , @songbird
  370. @AaronB

    ‘You have back pains, so why don’t you imbibe cyanide?’

    ‘The Jomon and Yayoi prove Japan has always been multicultural!’

    Okay, now I am certain you are just a troll.

    In my observations, honest and reliable people are generally consistent, however many liars, swindlers and ne’er-do-wells often show a willingness to present themselves differently depending on who their target is.

    • Replies: @AaronB
  371. AaronB says:
    @Hyperborean

    Aren’t you some sort of Scandinavian who grew up in a small village and now teaches English in China?

    What would you know about the range and depth of the human soul…read Shakespeare to get an idea of the infinite diversity of the human animal. Secondhand, but better than nothing.

    Or travel and meet lots of people from all walks of life. Get some experience of mankind under your belt. Get an education.

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
  372. @AaronB

    Aren’t you some sort of Scandinavian who grew up in a small village and now teaches English in China?

    My parents grew up in small villages, not me, and I am a student, not an English teacher.

    Or travel and meet lots of people from all walks of life. Get some experience of mankind under your belt. Get an education.

    I would say I have a rather cosmopolitan background, but I would willingly surrender it and return to the soil like some of my relatives have chosen to.

    • Replies: @AaronB
  373. songbird says:
    @AaronB

    Give me the same strife, ethnic ferment, and decivilization as Japan – that is all I ask.

    I want to look into a sea of white, English faces, and be disquieted by a Welsh phenotype. I want women to be able to leave their purses and babies unattended. I want a whole brigade of police, having nothing else to do, to be assigned to solving the most trivial crimes, like gum wrappers blown out of one’s hand by the wind.

    And when they catch the perps, I want them to learn to use the exact same adjectives that constables in 1850s Ireland wrote to distinguish the darker gradations in complexion of the milky-white slags who stole bags from the turnip huts of my heroic ancestors – women who if they were forced to misceginate with Nilotics, would spawn what sand niggers like Taleb would call “white babies.”

    • Replies: @AaronB
  374. AaronB says:
    @Hyperborean

    I understand you. It sounds like you crave stability and certainty. That’s why you’re attracted to things like genetic determinism. You want a fixed, certain world.

    That’s a legitimate personality type, and I hope you find what you need.

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
  375. AaronB says:
    @songbird

    Give me the same strife, ethnic ferment, and decivilization as Japan – that is all I ask.

    I want to look into a sea of white, English faces, and be disquieted by a Welsh phenotype. I want women to be able to leave their purses and babies unattended. I want a whole brigade of police, having nothing else to do, to be assigned to solving the most trivial crimes, like gum wrappers blown out of one’s hand by the wind.

    In any nations history, these ideal conditions last for a time only, then give way to civil strife. Even in relatively homogenous countries, peace alternates with strife. The nature of mankind.

    What’s interesting about England also is a certain unexpected amount of phenotypic diversity. For instance, there is an olive skinned dark haired and dark eyed type that is very British but looks like it’s straight out of southern Italy or the maghreb.

    Strangely, the American white phenotype is more uniform.

    You can get your ideal peaceful conditions, but you gotta strategize.

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
  376. @AaronB

    I understand you. It sounds like you crave stability and certainty. That’s why you’re attracted to things like genetic determinism. You want a fixed, certain world.

    Why do you zero on ‘genetic determinism’? I am a neo-Romantic nationalist. Even if one accepts ‘blank statism’, things like wanting the children playing in the streets to look like ourselves, a national culture that values our customs and our heroes, an end to decadence and xenophilic worship and a strong state that unapologetically protects the titular nationality would still be legitimate aspirations.

    • Replies: @AaronB
  377. @AaronB

    In any nations history, these ideal conditions last for a time only, then give way to civil strife. Even in relatively homogenous countries, peace alternates with strife. The nature of mankind.

    Which is no reason to deliberately make it worse.

    What’s interesting about England also is a certain unexpected amount of phenotypic diversity. For instance, there is an olive skinned dark haired and dark eyed type that is very British but looks like it’s straight out of southern Italy or the maghreb.

    That’s the ‘Welsh’ phenotype Songbird is talking about.

    • Replies: @AaronB
  378. AaronB says:
    @Hyperborean

    I agree, those are legitimate aspirations. Shared by most of mankind.

    My earlier comments on this thread were about realistic strategies to get to that state. You’re describing a community that’s united by a common identity. My comments were about how to forge such an identity out of the current state of confusion.

  379. AaronB says:
    @Hyperborean

    Is it? I know some Americans of Welsh ancestry and they are blond and blue eyed.

    That phenotype is surely a holdover from the Romans, or some other influx of darker Meds. Its just interesting how prominent it is among the British.

    My point is that a common national identity can accommodate a fairly broad range of phenotypes – obviously its not limitless, but its hard to know where to draw the line. Central Asian countries have phenotypes that range from purely Caucasian to purely East Asian, and we already mentioned the extraordinary phenotypic diversity of Japan, and to a lesser extent Britain.

    A nation mist have a principle of unity and a common identity, but phenotypic diversity – within limits, if broad – is the norm.

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
  380. @AaronB

    Is it? I know some Americans of Welsh ancestry and they are blond and blue eyed.

    That phenotype is surely a holdover from the Romans, or some other influx of darker Meds. Its just interesting how prominent it is among the British.

    A darker look comparatively speaking is a minority phenotype but it is one traditionally, before the age of mass migration, associated with Celts like certain Welsh and Irish (black Irish), which suggests that it is not connected to the Roman Empire.

    Central Asian countries have phenotypes that range from purely Caucasian to purely East Asian

    Some Europeans have very pale skin that blisters from the sun and others whose skin turns bronze under exposure. Some Europeans have black hair, various shades of brown, blond hair, auburn hair, others stark red. Some Europeans have brown eyes, others blue, green or grey. Some are tall and lanky, while others are short and stocky. Some Europeans have small button noses while others have straight, angular ones, etc. Some have completely straight hair, others waves or curly ringlets.

    But everyone can distinguish an African or Indio from a European.

    —-

    You must know that nationalists wouldn’t really be nationalists if they accepted your deconstructionist metaframe.

    • Replies: @AaronB
  381. AaronB says:
    @Hyperborean

    Right, its not infinitely elastic, and there would have to be intermixing.

    Point is, dealing realistically with the facts on the ground, if immigration stopped completely right now, Europe would not have a hard time assimilating the recent immigrants into a new national polity.

    Is it possible to resurrect the old nations of Europe that have committed suicide, or is the task to construct new national consciousnessess based on realism?

    • Replies: @Beckow
  382. Beckow says:
    @AaronB

    Is it possible to resurrect the old nations of Europe that have committed suicide, or is the task to construct new national consciousnessess based on realism?

    I don’t think anyone is trying to resurrect the old, what is gone is gone. But I am also uncomfortable with the idea of constructing a ‘new man‘, that tends to backfire. Why not simply have normal societies where cultures go on as they have for hundreds of years and mutual interactions are on levels that don’t undermine and change those cultures?

    What is different today are the numbers. Numbers matter a lot: 1,000 outsiders who come in to study, inter-marry, open a restaurant, whatever else, is generally a positive experience for all involved. But when hundreds of thousands (today millions) people from remote parts of the globe start coming to Europe and obsessively insist on also bringing their relatives, you have a huge problem. Conservatively there are already 50-70 million recent newcomers in Western Europe, accounting for 15-20% of the population, and starting to be a majority in many metropolitan areas. The stupid Merkel march in 2015 will over time add 3-5 million more by itself.

    This is simply not normal and no amount of ‘realism‘ can accommodate it. I agree that people have moved historically, but numbers matter. Most European migrations in the last 500 years were to settle other places (not all of course). The process of ‘settling‘ somewhere is very different from the process of migrating into a developed, relatively crowded society.

    The potential number of migrants from Africa, India, Middle East, Asia, etc… is in hundreds of millions. At this point a large percentage of them have a relative-friend who could sponsor them, so unless something changes, they will be coming.

    It would be nice if the already-here migrants would agree to protect their own self-interest and their childrens’, but most of them don’t. Most see 2 huge benefits in bringing millions more:
    – their relatives and friends will join them
    – they will as a group acquire a lot more political power (some also simply hate the West as it is, so they see its destruction as a positive).

    That ends your realism very quickly. The other potential allies among the progressives like women, leftists, intellectuals have had more then enough time to realize what is going on. They know, and for whatever psychological or material reason they choose to side with the globalist elite. My point: your realism is hollow, there is nothing there.

    • Replies: @AaronB
  383. AaronB says:
    @Beckow

    The key thing is to halt immigration and assiniliate the people who have already come. That isn’t a big deal. If people stop coming Europe can racially assimilate the whatever percent is already there. It would be a natural organic process. All countries are composed of racial assimilation between often very disparate elements and that’s reflected in the phenotypic diversity, which is often quite broad.

    The problem is that Europe does not have anymore the power to assimilate. To assimilate others, you need an organic society with deep roots in the non-rational side of life. A particular way of life that is stupid but strong. China traditionally assimilated newcomers very well, because it had a very well developed organic culture rooted in the non-rational side of life, that was exceptionally stupid but strong. It did not bend. Others bent to it.

    In Europe, it is precisely the newcomers who have an organic way of life rooted in the non-rational, and who are stupid but strong. So it is more likely you will assimilate to them.

    Enlightenment people always assimilate towards people with organic cultures, not vice versa. The mind is weaker than the emotions.

    Now, simply as a question of strategy what can you do to stem the tide? I don’t see how it can be done without a cultural shift of some magnitude. Individualism and unfettered capitalism, which have been cultural mainstays of the West, would have to at least be seriously revised. And genetic determinism would also have to go, another pillar of the Western system.

    That’s why I suggested a broad based coalition based on economic equity with a communal angle and ditching the racism and the HBD nonsense.

    • Replies: @peterAUS
    , @Mitleser
    , @Beckow
  384. peterAUS says:
    @AaronB

    Let’s put it this way:

    People like you simply do not get the “dark” side of that game.
    When the things start getting real your types are the first to be taken care of, by their own natural side.
    Those who pass through that selection process either flee that part of the territory/region/world, get taken care of by the “other” side or, in rare cases, go through traumatic experience and join their natural own side.

    Make of this what you will.

  385. Mitleser says:
    @AaronB

    The key thing is to halt immigration and assiniliate the people who have already come. That isn’t a big deal. If people stop coming Europe can racially assimilate the whatever percent is already there. It would be a natural organic process. All countries are composed of racial assimilation between often very disparate elements and that’s reflected in the phenotypic diversity, which is often quite broad.

    How are you going to convince minorities to halt immigration to America despite their interest in increasing their population share via immigration?

    • Replies: @iffen
  386. Beckow says:
    @AaronB

    …broad based coalition based on economic equity with a communal angle and ditching the racism and the HBD nonsense

    You restated your dreamy solution without addressing any of the points that I and others made. You really don’t get the ‘dark side‘ of the game (quoting PeterAUS). How can there be an alliance with people whose main objective is the exact opposite of what we want and need to do?

    You also cannot freeze migration to Europe with today’s rules – family reunification and asylum leniency. What you suggest is incoherent. None are as blind as those who refuse to see…

    Your obsession with presumed racism is a distraction. The reason there is this growing antagonism among groups – it is not racism per se, simply different groups are starting to openly dislike each other – is exactly the desire of the migrating groups to take over, to suppress the existing white European populations. Some are open about it, others hide it, and some might even be genuinely against it – but as groups, the migrants and the fools assisting them are quite aggressive in their dislike of Europe as it used to be. It is only natural that there is a growing counter-reaction by the native Europeans (or whites in US).

    You pose as someone who wants to be constructive, but your ideas are unworkable. So you are either deceptive (trying to buy time), or you don’t understand the situation.

    • Replies: @AaronB
    , @peterAUS
    , @iffen
  387. AaronB says:
    @Beckow

    Well, my point is that the racial stuff is a distraction, for the purpose of keeping you divided, and you’re falling for it.

    But I understand asking the alt right not to do the racial stuff is asking you not to be alt right.

    In that case, I’d say at least be socialistic and communitarian among yourselves to a greater degree than now.

    The main attitude that dominates the alt right is this harsh and aggressive desire to rank people, put others down, and be superior. You see this with Game, the IQ obsession, HBD. It’s a thread that runs through everything. You don’t just put down other races, you rank and out each other down, try and be “alpha” rather than communal, obsessed with IQ, etc.

    This won’t attract quality people to your cause – this will attract the resentful and the losers.

    At least craft some kind of positive message that is uplifting.

    But I suspect the real revolt will come from within the Left when it comes.

    • Replies: @AaronB
    , @dfordoom
  388. peterAUS says:
    @Beckow

    Pretty much.
    Especially:

    The reason there is this growing antagonism among groups – it is not racism per se, simply different groups are starting to openly dislike each other – is exactly the desire of the migrating groups to take over, to suppress the existing white European populations. Some are open about it, others hide it, and some might even be genuinely against it – but as groups, the migrants and the fools assisting them are quite aggressive in their dislike of Europe as it used to be. It is only natural that there is a growing counter-reaction by the native Europeans (or whites in US).

    As for

    …you are either deceptive (trying to buy time), or you don’t understand the situation…

    Internet “handles” are irrelevant themselves. The groups they belong to aren’t, though.
    My take: the later in the quote applies to the most of the alt_Light/cuckservatives; the former are simply members of current elite. Hehe…there are definitely a couple of “elite” guys , and quite prolific, posting/commenting here.

  389. AaronB says:
    @AaronB

    If you look at all the cultural revolts in history that succeeded and had long term impact, Christianity, Islam, Communism, etc, they were never about this harsh message of ranking people, competition, and superiority.

    Always it was a message of greater social connection and cooperation and solidarity.

    So the harsh intra-competitive character of the alt right is basically incapable of morally galvanizing people. It is a philosophy for angry losers.

    Historically, angry losers with low-level moral messages can sometimes make a splash, but I don’t think there’s ever been a case where this philosophy has seriously succeeded. Even National Socialism had a strong socialistic aspect.

  390. iffen says:
    @Beckow

    You restated your dreamy solution without addressing any of the points that I and others made.

    That’s because AB is not a realist as he now claims; he’s just trying to play one. He’s still the same “spiritual” moonbeam collector that he was in his earlier incarnation.

    • Replies: @AaronB
  391. iffen says:
    @Mitleser

    How are you going to convince minorities to halt immigration to America

    By making Cesar Chavez’s birthday a legal holiday?

    • Replies: @songbird
  392. @Hyperborean

    “Several of them also have cosmopolitan backgrounds”

    Ian McEwan lived abroad til he was 12. “I grew up in a Muslim country – Libya – and have only warm memories of a dignified, tolerant and hospitable Islamic culture” he said. Betrayal might be in the blood – his mother was unfaithful to her husband (who was posted abroad) and married McEwan’s father (who she’d already had a child by and given it up for adoption) after her husband was killed (in combat if Wiki is to be believed – must have been Malaya).

    Colm Tóibín is an Irishman who’s spent more time out of Ireland (mostly in US universities) than in it.

  393. songbird says:
    @iffen

    That might be an idea – replace MLK’s birthday with a sufficiently pro-American Hispanic. Or one of their dictators like Simon Bolivar. Or even one of those Indians who went off the reservation.

    I think nearly anything would be an improvement, as long as it wasn’t continued negrophilia.

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
    , @Hyperborean
  394. @songbird

    That might be an idea – replace MLK’s birthday with a sufficiently pro-American Hispanic. Or one of their dictators like Simon Bolivar. Or even one of those Indians who went off the reservation.

    A holiday dedicated to Narciso López would be amusing, even if it is unlikely.

    • Replies: @songbird
  395. songbird says:
    @Hyperborean

    Brilliant choice! He has a lot of good points. Skipping the obvious, I like how he tried to recruit Robert E. Lee and supported slavery.

  396. dfordoom says: • Website
    @AaronB

    But I suspect the real revolt will come from within the Left when it comes.

    That’s my view as well. I can’t see anything good ever coming out of the Right, whether it’s the mainstream right or the alt-right or any other right.

    • Agree: AaronB
    • Replies: @iffen
  397. AaronB says:
    @iffen

    Actually, iffen, focusing only on the harsh and negative side of the human character is as unrealistic as collecting moonbeams.

    Realism means accepting both the good and the bad about humans – not just the bad, as the alt-right does. The alt-right is drowning in the bad side of the human character, which is why it can never be a motivating force for large numbers of people.

    Its true that the Left often degenerates into unrealistically focusing only on the good side of the human character, but if one must go to extremes, this is infinitely preferable and more motivating.

    But it is far more likely that the Left will become more realistic while retaining its predominantly positive focus than that the Right will ever become more positive and inspiring.

    As the Right becomes more positive it begins to merge into the Left, and new movements like the alt-right are needed to retain the harsh and negative message of the Right.

    • Replies: @iffen
  398. @songbird

    I think nearly anything would be an improvement, as long as it wasn’t continued negrophilia.

    Have you heard of A Sojourn in the City of Amalgamation, in the Year of Our Lord, 19–? It is an Antebellum-era book published by Jerome Bonaparte Holgate, who I think was from New England.

    It employs fantastical elements, but despite this it doesn’t seem that much stranger than our present.

    Chapter 3 gives an impression of the work.

    http://utc.iath.virginia.edu/abolitn/abfioba2t.html

    • Replies: @songbird
  399. iffen says:
    @AaronB

    Realism means accepting both the good and the bad about humans

    Happy medium; only consult happy mediums when attempting to contact the spiritual world.

    Don’t worry about these “rayciss” foils here; for every one of them there are ten thousand who hope that we will all be beige people in the future.

  400. iffen says:
    @dfordoom

    I can’t see anything good ever coming out of the Right,

    The alt-right presents many questions, criticisms and analyses not found elsewhere.

    • Replies: @dfordoom
  401. songbird says:
    @Hyperborean

    That’s quite interesting. I wouldn’t have supposed that anyone had been prescient enough at that time, but I suppose they knew about Paraguay.

  402. dfordoom says: • Website
    @iffen

    The alt-right presents many questions, criticisms and analyses not found elsewhere.

    You could say the same of Marxism, or National Socialism, or Fascism. Even a batshit crazy ideology like libertarianism comes up with interesting questions, criticisms and analyses.

    The problem is not coming up with questions, criticisms and analyses but coming up with solutions. I don’t see the alt-right doing that. Their proposed solutions are mostly insane (very much like libertarian solutions). A lot of their questions, criticisms and analyses are valid but a lot are nothing more than pseudoscientific drivel, wishful thinking and hate-filled diatribes. And they don’t seem to have any realistic solutions that are ever likely to appeal to any but a tiny minority of sad losers.

    On balance I think the negatives of the alt-right outweigh the positives. I don’t see them achieving anything. I also suspect that they’re riddled with FBI informants and agents provocateurs.

    • Replies: @AaronB
    , @iffen
    , @iffen
  403. AaronB says:
    @dfordoom

    A lot of their questions, criticisms and analyses are valid but a lot are nothing more than pseudoscientific drivel, wishful thinking and hate-filled diatribes

    .

    When I first encountered the alt right that’s what I thought, they had a lot of good critiques, and I thought maybe I was on their side.

    The more I engaged them the more I realized that despite some interesting critiques they’re quite awful and stupid. I tried to “push” them in a different direction, but that obviously didn’t work. They are what they are.

    I’ve given up on them. The human quality is too low. I occasionally make comments now for the benefit of those like I was back then.

    • Agree: Mr. XYZ
    • Replies: @dfordoom
    , @iffen
  404. dfordoom says: • Website
    @AaronB

    When I first encountered the alt right that’s what I thought, they had a lot of good critiques, and I thought maybe I was on their side.

    Yeah, I went through a stage of thinking that as well.

    Hanging out on Vox Day’s blog is a good way to cure oneself of any illusions about the usefulness of the alt-right.

    • Replies: @iffen
  405. iffen says:
    @AaronB

    I occasionally make comments now for the benefit of those like I was back then.

    KJV

    15Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house. 16Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

    Tell it all, Brother AaronB!

  406. iffen says:
    @dfordoom

    The problem is not coming up with questions, criticisms and analyses but coming up with solutions. I don’t see the alt-right doing that. Their proposed solutions are mostly insane (very much like libertarian solutions).

    I agree, but you usually can’t get to a good solution if you don’t understand the problem.

    • Replies: @dfordoom
  407. iffen says:
    @dfordoom

    You could say the same of Marxism, or National Socialism, or Fascism. Even a batshit crazy ideology like libertarianism comes up with interesting questions, criticisms and analyses.

    I do say the same for Marxism; not so much for fascism.

  408. iffen says:
    @dfordoom

    Hanging out on Vox Day’s blog is a good way to cure oneself of any illusions about the usefulness of the alt-right.

    It only took me one stop at Vox Day.

    You and AaronB don’t seem to be able to separate political ideology and dogma from scholarship and science.

    • Replies: @dfordoom
  409. dfordoom says: • Website
    @iffen

    You and AaronB don’t seem to be able to separate political ideology and dogma from scholarship and science.

    I don’t think anyone these days really gets the distinction between political ideology and dogma on the oner hand and scholarship and science on the other. There’s a great deal of scholarship and science that is just political ideology and dogma dressed up as science – psychiatry and climate science for example.

    As for things like HBD and IQ, it’s possible there’s some actual science buried in there somewhere. Human intelligence obviously exists and it varies. That’s about all we can say for certain. Our understanding of human intelligence and behaviour is still extremely primitive. When people take crude poorly developed science and claim that it’s all Settled Science then they’re actually indulging in ideology.

    Even the definitions are, well they’re not defined at all. Obviously there are major differences between various human populations but is there any agreement on basic stuff like how many races there are? Where exactly are the boundaries drawn? There’s no real understanding of the effects of cultural influences. It’s all impossibly, unscientifically, vague.

    But certain people, for political reasons, claim that the extent of our scientific knowledge is much greater than it actually is. It amuses me when alt-righters rejoice that whites have higher IQ scores than blacks. That means we’re better than the darkies, because IQ is everything. Then they try to deal with the fact that East Asians have higher average IQ scores than whites and they tell us that of course IQ means very little, it’s creativity that counts and we have more of that so we’re better than the yellow man as well. These are clearly people who are confusing science with political ideology.

    Intelligence and behaviour are like climate. They’re so complex we might never fully understand them. And we don’t know what actual links there are between intelligence and behaviour.

    • Agree: AaronB
    • Replies: @iffen
  410. dfordoom says: • Website
    @iffen

    I agree, but you usually can’t get to a good solution if you don’t understand the problem.

    True. That’s what’s frustrating about the alt-right. They’re ahead of most people because they do at least know we have problems. They’re reasonably OK at diagnosing the general areas where the problems lie. They’re not so strong on diagnosing the root causes of the problems. And their solutions are impractical and counter-productive.

    They don’t seem like they’re capable of coming up with good solutions because the solutions they do offer are merely reflections of their own fears and prejudices.

  411. iffen says:
    @dfordoom

    There are so many inaccuracies in your comment that it is way above my pay grade to set you straight. I’ll just pick the easiest and most obvious one.

    Human intelligence obviously exists and it varies. That’s about all we can say for certain.

    On this very site, read Dr. Thompson’s articles, his archives and many of the references that he cites. (Then tell AB what you found out; he’s as clueless as you.)

  412. JP says:

    Patriot, from the Latin “Patria”, meaning “of the father. To be a patriot means you love the fatherland.

    Nation, from the Latin “Natio”, meaning birth. To be a nation would mean you were born together, i.e you are the same people. To be a nationalist means you love your people.

    Immigrants cannot be patriots unless they go back where they came from. You can’t be a patriot without being a nationalist, because if you weren’t you would have to be ok with giving away the fatherland to a foreign people. To be ok with that, you’d have to think that foreigners are not equal but superior guardians of the land than your own nation.

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