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All this brouhaha over Russiagate and to think that in the end it was Ukraine that did it… 🙂

Anyhow:

I am pretty sure this is a trap (for the Dems), who are initiating impeachment without even knowing what’s on the damn transcript.

It will be nice to see some questions on how exactly Hunter Biden was given a position at Ukraine’s natural gas monopoly with a monthly salary of $50,000 (in a country where the average wage is two orders of magnitude lower) while daddy campaigned against Ukrainian corruption.

Perhaps there’ll even be some good opportunities for knowledge about the Maidan false flag to seep into the US, discourse though I’ll believe it when I see it.

 
• Category: Ideology • Tags: Donald Trump, Politics, Ukraine, United States 
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  1. Please keep off topic posts to the current Open Thread.

    If you are new to my work, start here.

    • Replies: @Blinky Bill
  2. Mr. Hack says:

    Anatoly – care to elaborate on what you mean by the “Maidan false flag”. As far as I’m concerned, the Maidan was a direct reaction to a very unpopular president of Ukraine and his policies. The people had had it with corruption and had enough of gold trimmed toilets and private zoos filled with exotic animals. Some will scoff reading this thinking so where has the corruption gone? The new president was elected on a platform primarily dedicated to curbing corruption. I wish him luck in his endeavors. Sometimes democracy works very slowly, but step by step, inch by inch, Ukraine is slowly but surely headed towards a better future.

  3. Mr. Hack says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    Thanks for the link. I need some time to digest it all…

  4. Anonymous[277] • Disclaimer says:

    I do not know where the Dems are going with this. To actually get Trump out of office would require a 2/3 majority of the senate to vote for conviction…do the Dems really think there’s any set of circumstances under which they get those votes? Impeachment itself is nothing more than “bringing charges.” Bill Clinton was impeached; he still finished his term.

    4D chess: the Dem establishment wants to knock off Biden and they think any extended investigation into this Ukraine stuff may bring him down. But it could backfire: Biden still ends up the nominee but Trump uses any dirt unearthed to portray him as a corrupt wheeler-dealer, thereby weakening Biden’s campaign.

    • Replies: @Realist
    , @Swedish Family
  5. WHAT says:
    @Mr. Hack

    If you define no Ukraine as the better future, which is entirely fine by me.

  6. WHAT says:

    On topic, this is a desperation move. Note Harris abstained from taking part.

  7. Hail says: • Website

    a monthly salary of $50,000 (in a country where the average wage is two orders of magnitude lower)

    FWIW, the New York Times report suggests Hunter Biden’s monthly salary for this cushy position fluctuated, and that $50,000 was the maximum he ever received for his services in any given month.

    I wonder, if they had salary information, why not publish the full total? e.g., it could have been [to make up a plausible number] $1,500,000 over his five years in that role (ca. May 2014 to April 2019), ranging from $10,000 to $50,000 a month.

    • Replies: @Hail
    , @Mikhail
  8. Hail says: • Website
    @Hail

    two orders of magnitude lower

    What would a Ukrainian look like who makes a salary as high as – one – order of magnitude lower than Hunter Biden made for his Ukraine consulting work?

    Someone made an English wiki page on Ukraine salaries:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Ukrainian_oblasts_and_territories_by_salary

    According to that page, the salary avg. in Kiev was at 11,400 hryvnia/month in mid 2017, while most other oblasts were at 6-7,000 hryvnia/month.

    The exchange rate to USD (nominal) in the period Sept. 2015 to Sept. 2019 has fluctuated between 21 and 29 hryvnia to 1 USD, which yields, covering the exchange rate range:

    – avg. Kiev salary: something between $400 and $540/month [USD]
    – avg. non-Kiev salary: something between $210 and $335/month [USD]

    But the PPP-to-nominal spread for Ukraine suggests a more accurate view, when viewing the figures in USD as above, would mean multiplying each by about 3x or even 3.33x.

    So it looks like a lower-rung Kiev professional making ~1.5x to 1.75x the Kiev avg. monthly salary, when that salary-figure is pushed up by PPP, is able to make, in one year, what Hunter Biden may have made in a typical (not peak) month.

  9. anon[211] • Disclaimer says:

    This is what Hunter Biden confessed to the New Yorker

    For another venture, Archer travelled to Kiev to pitch investors on a real-estate fund he managed, Rosemont Realty. There, he met Mykola Zlochevsky, the co-founder of Burisma, one of Ukraine’s largest natural-gas producers. Zlochevsky had served as ecology minister under the pro-Russian government of Viktor Yanukovych. After public protests in 2013 and early 2014, the Ukrainian parliament had voted to remove Yanukovych and called for his arrest. Under the new Ukrainian government, authorities in Kiev, with the encouragement of the Obama Administration, launched an investigation into whether Zlochevsky had used his cabinet position to grant exploration licenses that benefitted Burisma. (The status of the inquiry is unclear, but no proof of criminal activity has been publicly disclosed. Zlochevsky could not be reached for comment, and Burisma did not respond to queries.) In a related investigation, which was ultimately closed owing to a lack of evidence, British authorities temporarily froze U.K. bank accounts tied to Zlochevsky.

    In early 2014, Zlochevsky sought to assemble a high-profile international board to oversee Burisma, telling prospective members that he wanted the company to adopt Western standards of transparency. Among the board members he recruited was a former President of Poland, Aleksander Kwaśniewski, who had a reputation as a dedicated reformer. In early 2014, at Zlochevsky’s suggestion, Kwaśniewski met with Archer in Warsaw and encouraged him to join Burisma’s board, arguing that the company was critical to Ukraine’s independence from Russia. Archer agreed.

    When Archer told Hunter that the board needed advice on how to improve the company’s corporate governance, Hunter recommended the law firm Boies Schiller Flexner, where he was “of counsel.” The firm brought in the investigative agency Nardello & Co. to assess Burisma’s history of corruption. Hunter joined Archer on the Burisma board in April, 2014. Three months later, in a draft report to Boies Schiller, Nardello said that it was “unable to identify any information to date regarding any current government investigation into Zlochevsky or Burisma,” but cited unnamed sources saying that Zlochevsky could be “vulnerable to investigation for financial crimes” and for “perceived abuse of power.”

    Vice-President Biden was playing a central role in overseeing U.S. policy in Ukraine, and took the lead in calling on Kiev to fight rampant corruption. On May 13, 2014, after Hunter’s role on the Burisma board was reported in the news, Jen Psaki, a State Department spokesperson, said that the State Department was not concerned about perceived conflicts of interest, because Hunter was a “private citizen.” Hunter told Burisma’s management and other board members that he would not be involved in any matters that were connected to the U.S. government or to his father. Kwaśniewski told me, “We never discussed how the Vice-President can help us. Frankly speaking, we didn’t need such help.”

    Several former officials in the Obama Administration and at the State Department insisted that Hunter’s role at Burisma had no effect on his father’s policies in Ukraine, but said that, nevertheless, Hunter should not have taken the board seat. As the former senior White House aide put it, there was a perception that “Hunter was on the loose, potentially undermining his father’s message.” The same aide said that Hunter should have recognized that at least some of his foreign business partners were motivated to work with him because they wanted “to be able to say that they are affiliated with Biden.” A former business associate said, “The appearance of a conflict of interest is good enough, at this level of politics, to keep you from doing things like that.”

    In December, 2015, as Joe Biden prepared to return to Ukraine, his aides braced for renewed scrutiny of Hunter’s relationship with Burisma. Amos Hochstein, the Obama Administration’s special envoy for energy policy, raised the matter with Biden, but did not go so far as to recommend that Hunter leave the board. As Hunter recalled, his father discussed Burisma with him just once: “Dad said, ‘I hope you know what you are doing,’ and I said, ‘I do.’ ”

    A perceived conflict of interest. Bad optics if you will. And utterly boring, so move on. If you aren’t asleep yet, there is page after page of his drug problems. He wasn’t doing a lot of work.

    He was paid a few million.

    • Replies: @Hail
  10. Hail says: • Website
    @anon

    He was paid a few million.

    Source, please, thanks.

    • Replies: @anon
    , @MEH 0910
  11. anon[211] • Disclaimer says:

    In 2016, Hunter was consulting for five or six major clients. Once or twice a year, he attended Burisma board meetings and energy forums that took place in Europe. He said that, in June, 2016, while in Monte Carlo for a meeting, he went to a hotel night club and used cocaine that a stranger offered him in the bathroom.

    So don’t say he didn’t earn his fees.

    • Replies: @Twinkie
    , @El Dato
  12. Twinkie says:
    @anon

    He said that, in June, 2016, while in Monte Carlo for a meeting, he went to a hotel night club and used cocaine that a stranger offered him in the bathroom.

    And they say Trump is an agent of foreign intelligence.

    Hunter Biden doesn’t sound – at all – like a ripe target for recruitment by a foreign intelligence agency.

    • Agree: AP
    • Replies: @SaneClownPosse
    , @Mikhail
  13. anon[211] • Disclaimer says:
    @Hail

    The few million I got from Fox News/Rudi Guilini. The detail is from The New Yorker, July 1 2019.

    The New Yorker stuff is Hunter’s side of it and doesn’t discuss numbers. But its all stuff he admits.

    In December, 2013, Vice-President Biden flew to Beijing to meet with President Xi Jinping. Biden often asked one of his grandchildren to accompany him on his international trips, and he invited Finnegan to come on this one. Hunter told his father that he wanted to join them. According to a Beijing-based BHR representative, Hunter, shortly after arriving in Beijing, on December 4th, helped arrange for Li to shake hands with his father in the lobby of the American delegation’s hotel. Afterward, Hunter and Li had what both parties described as a social meeting. Hunter told me that he didn’t understand why anyone would have been concerned about this. “How do I go to Beijing, halfway around the world, and not see them for a cup of coffee?” he said.

    Hunter’s meeting with Li and his relationship with BHR attracted little attention at the time, but some of Biden’s advisers were worried that Hunter, by meeting with a business associate during his father’s visit, would expose the Vice-President to criticism. The former senior White House aide told me that Hunter’s behavior invited questions about whether he “was leveraging access for his benefit, which just wasn’t done in that White House. Optics really mattered, and that seemed to be cutting it pretty close, even if nothing nefarious was going on.” When I asked members of Biden’s staff whether they discussed their concerns with the Vice-President, several of them said that they had been too intimidated to do so. “Everyone who works for him has been screamed at,” a former adviser told me. Others said that they were wary of hurting his feelings. One business associate told me that Biden, during difficult conversations about his family, “got deeply melancholy, which, to me, is more painful than if someone yelled and screamed at me. It’s like you’ve hurt him terribly. That was always my fear, that I would be really touching a very fragile part of him.”

    Per Fox, Hunter left China with a $1,500,000,000 hedge fund deal.

    Dad takes a trip. Hunter comes home with a deal.

    He confirms he was there, knew the people, was involved, and conceded that the optics were bad.

    He also admits to extensive drug and alcohol problems, lengthy rehab stints, etc. So he wasn’t able to do all that much work for long periods.

    Massive corruption? We are left with Fox News and Guiliani.

  14. anon[211] • Disclaimer says:

    From The Hill:

    https://thehill.com/opinion/white-house/462422-missing-piece-to-the-ukraine-puzzle-state-departments-overture-to-rudy

    The coverage suggests Giuliani reached out to new Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky’s team this summer solely because he wanted to get dirt on possible Trump 2020 challenger Joe Biden and his son Hunter’s business dealings in that country.

    Politics or law could have been part of Giuliani’s motive, and neither would be illegal.

    But there is a missing part of the story that the American public needs in order to assess what really happened: Giuliani’s contact with Zelensky adviser and attorney Andrei Yermak this summer was encouraged and facilitated by the U.S. State Department.

    Giuliani didn’t initiate it. A senior U.S. diplomat contacted him in July and asked for permission to connect Yermak with him.

    Then, Giuliani met in early August with Yermak on neutral ground — in Spain — before reporting back to State everything that occurred at the meeting.

    That debriefing occurred Aug. 11 by phone with two senior U.S. diplomats, one with responsibility for Ukraine and the other with responsibility for the European Union, according to electronic communications records I reviewed and interviews I conducted.

    When asked on Friday, Giuliani confirmed to me that the State Department asked him to take the Yermak meeting and that he did, in fact, apprise U.S. officials every step of the way.

    “I didn’t even know who he [Yermak] really was, but they vouched for him. They actually urged me to talk to him because they said he seemed like an honest broker,” Giuliani told me. “I reported back to them [the two State officials] what my conversations with Yermak were about. All of this was done at the request of the State Department.”

    So, rather than just a political opposition research operation, Giuliani’s contacts were part of a diplomatic effort by the State Department to grow trust with the new Ukrainian president, Zelensky, a former television comic making his first foray into politics and diplomacy.

    Why would Ukraine want to talk to Giuliani, and why would the State Department be involved in facilitating it?

    According to interviews with more than a dozen Ukrainian and U.S. officials, Ukraine’s government under recently departed President Petro Poroshenko and, now, Zelensky has been trying since summer 2018 to hand over evidence about the conduct of Americans they believe might be involved in violations of U.S. law during the Obama years.

    The Ukrainians say their efforts to get their allegations to U.S. authorities were thwarted first by the U.S. Embassy in Kiev, which failed to issue timely visas allowing them to visit America.

    Then the Ukrainians hired a former U.S. attorney — not Giuliani — to hand-deliver the evidence of wrongdoing to the U.S. attorney’s office in New York, but the federal prosecutors never responded.

    The U.S. attorney, a respected American, confirmed the Ukrainians’ story to me. The allegations that Ukrainian officials wanted to pass on involved both efforts by the Democratic National Committee to pressure Ukraine to meddle in the 2016 U.S. election as well as Joe Biden’s son’s effort to make money in Ukraine while the former vice president managed U.S.-Ukraine relations, the retired U.S. attorney told me.

    Eventually, Giuliani in November 2018 got wind of the Ukrainian allegations and started to investigate.

    As President Trump’s highest-profile defense attorney, the former New York City mayor, often known simply as Rudy, believed the Ukrainian’s evidence could assist in his defense against the Russia collusion investigation and former special counsel Robert Mueller’s final report.

  15. To be honest I couldn’t care less at this point: this is going to be a new daily soap opera, which is going to continue all the way until Trump’s reelection.

    • Agree: WHAT, AnonFromTN
  16. neutral says:
    @Mr. Hack

    There are different levels of corruption. Ukraine has now embraced the must destructive form of corruption possible, by willingly becoming a puppet to the US regime. This means it must follow anti white, anti Christian and anti decency as its core ideologies, it is basically committed national suicide. Don’t know why this form of corruption is ok with you

  17. AP says:
    @Mr. Hack

    Counterpoint to Katchanovsky’s claims:

    https://ukraineanalysis.wordpress.com/2014/10/23/the-snipers-massacre-in-kyiv/

    (author is known as an anti-UPA, anti-Bandera writer associated with Himka)

    ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

    Post-Maidan local political figures in Ukraine won property from Katchanovsky (who is from Volyn) in some dispute so the man has an axe to grind.

  18. @neutral

    Don’t know why this form of corruption is ok with you

    He’s just an Anglo larper with some imagined ties to the ‘old country’ he dreams of while being bored.

    It’s not like he’s actually gonna live in the shithole, comeon!

  19. Gerard2 says:
    @Mr. Hack

    The new president was elected on a platform primarily dedicated to curbing corruption

    …and the President before that ( who could not have been more morally and politically corrupt)
    ….and the President and PM before that….and before that…….and before that

    At the same time in Russia, you could put only the PROFITS of 4 companies in Russia for 2018 – and it would be bigger than the entire GDP of Ukrop economy

    Maidan false flag is one of the most obvious things in our time. Same thing with the Yushchenko poisoning. It irritates me that I don’t think anybody has ever asked Putin to give an exact state position on what they think happened to him – I know it’s easy to get confused into what failed revolution he was part of – there has been so many in Banderastan

  20. blatnoi says:
    @Mr. Hack

    Yanukovich was plenty popular in Eastern and Southern Ukraine. Kiev is not his support base so if the capital was in Kharkov or in Donetsk, the Maidan would never have happened. The post Maidan support for the rebels was mismanaged by Russia, otherwise more than just Donetsk and Luhansk would rebel and the frontline would be a lot further West. They were afraid of sanctions and pissing off the West too much I suppose.

    In fact, I’m seeing some talk on Al Twitter, that Yanukovich is thinking of coming back to Ukraine soon and his former underlings who are there are calling for it, and for all charges against him to be dropped, since he could unite the country, as there are plenty of people in the East and South who hate the West now. Probably if he comes back, there will be a bigger civil war instead.

  21. Realist says:
    @neutral

    Ukraine has now embraced the must destructive form of corruption possible, by willingly becoming a puppet to the US regime.

    Amen. only a dumbass would do that.

  22. Realist says:
    @Anonymous

    4D chess: the Dem establishment wants to knock off Biden and they think any extended investigation into this Ukraine stuff may bring him down. But it could backfire: Biden still ends up the nominee but Trump uses any dirt unearthed to portray him as a corrupt wheeler-dealer, thereby weakening Biden’s campaign.

    Describing any action by a politician as 4D chess is ludicrous…not many can handle checkers.

  23. @blatnoi

    I am seeing that chatter as well. That was true before 2014. The one thing that all Ukrainians are unambiguously united on is hate and contempt for Yanukovych lol.

    • Replies: @blatnoi
  24. Hunter Biden is not alone. There are scores of bidens of varying calibre prowling around Eastern Europe with impunity.

    By suggesting one of those might be prosecuted, Trump might of course have violated “our son of a bitch” doctrine, but the Dems are truly stupid. Instead of pretending this doesn’t matter, they openly demonstrate it does. If Trump survives (he will) and Ukrainian prosecutors proceed, it won’t be long before people (including aspiring prosecutors hungry for fame) in Romania, Poland or Latvia start thinking “hey, how about we prosecute a biden or two, too?”.

    Interesting times ahead.

  25. Matra says:
    @neutral

    Ukraine has now embraced the must destructive form of corruption possible, by willingly becoming a puppet to the US regime.

    In the long term, perhaps, but it’s worked out well for Croatia since the 1990s. They got to ethnically cleanse their entire Serb minority then join the EU whilst Russia’s friends, the Serbs, came up losers pretty much everywhere. Unlike Ukraine, Croatia had the advantage of a newly confident (arrogant?) united Germany going to bat for them and Yeltsin in Moscow, but maybe Ukraine believes having the US on your side is all that really matters.

    • Agree: Epigon
    • Replies: @El Dato
  26. El Dato says:
    @anon

    He said that, in June, 2016, while in Monte Carlo for a meeting, he went to a hotel night club and used cocaine that a stranger offered him in the bathroom.

    What kind of life do these people lead?

    And multiple consulting roles in parallel. While on drugs. TOP.MEN.

    Yeah, that’s worth at least 50’000 USD per month (max, I swear, could be lower *briefcase filled with greenbacks and hooker’s knickers drops on the floor*)

  27. Mr. Hack says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    Thanks to AP’s help (see comment #18) I was able to locate some pretty good critiques of Katchanovsky’s paper. In all likelihood, it’s his attempt to deflect blame for the massacres that occurred on the streets of Kyiv, that are in fact the real “false flag” that you’re searching for. The whole premise is just not sunstantiated by any credible evidence and certainly not by the blurry photos of would be assasins on the streets, when everybody know the real assasins were located within a hotel. I’m not going to try and reiterate all of the detailed criticism, you can read it for yourself, if you’re interested:

    https://ukraineanalysis.wordpress.com/2014/10/23/the-snipers-massacre-in-kyiv/

    https://ukrainian-studies.ca/2014/12/01/taras-kuzio-study-ukrainian-nationalism-university-ottawa/

    My own personal observation as to who was behind the massacres centers around the arrival and departure of certain Russian higher up military personnel in Kyiv exactly during the timeframe of these tragic events. Just a coincidence?

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  28. El Dato says:
    @Matra

    Polandball also wants to play [unhealthy sexual submission role slur] to the US…

    Washington & Warsaw make pact to obstruct Russia’s Nord Stream 2 gas pipeline

    Open corruption and showing off being for sale? We can has it.

  29. Looks like the Dems splashed head first into a puddle. Also amusing how much of a sycophant Ze is towards Trump.

    • Replies: @neutral
    , @Hail
    , @Denis
  30. neutral says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    Looks like the Dems splashed head first into a puddle

    I don’t think it matters, they will just argue that exposing corruption of US politicians is election interference, they already did this with Hillary and the media will push this narrative here is as well.

    • Replies: @Beckow
  31. Mr. Hack says:
    @Mr. Hack

    In an interview on 20 February, a retired[85] colonel of the Main Intelligence Directorate of Russia (GRU), Aleksandr Musienko, said that the conflict could only be solved by force, and that Ukraine had proven it could not exist as an independent, sovereign state.[85][86] According to government documents released by former Deputy Interior Minister Hennadiy Moskal, Russian officials served as advisers to the operations against protesters. Code-named “Wave” and “Boomerang”, the operations involved the use of snipers to disperse crowds and capture the protesters’ headquarters in the House of Trade Unions. Before some police officers defected, the plans included the deployment of 22,000 combined security troops in Kiev.[87] According to the documents, the former first deputy of the Russian GRU stayed at the Kiev Hotel, played a major role in the preparations, and was paid by the Security Services of Ukraine.[88] ..During a press conference on 3 April 2014, Ukraine’s new interior minister, chief prosecutor, and top security chief implicated more than 30 Russian Federal Security Service (FSB) agents in the crackdown on protesters, saying that, in addition to taking part in the planning, the agents had flown shipments of large quantities of explosives into an airport near Kiev. Valentyn Nalyvaichenko, the interim head of Ukraine’s SBU state security agency, said the agents had been stationed in Kiev throughout the Euromaidan protests, had been provided with “state telecommunications” while residing at an SBU compound, and had kept in regular contact with Ukrainian security officials. “We have substantiated grounds to consider that these very groups which were located at an SBU training ground took part in the planning and execution of activities of this so-called antiterrorist operation,”

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Ukrainian_revolution

    Seems like Katchanovsky missed just a few pertinent details in his paper, wouldn’t you say Anatoly?

    • Replies: @Gerard2
  32. Gerard2 says:
    @Mr. Hack

    Hi there, friend. You’re a great guy. The best. A wonderful man

    Could you explain to me, please, who William Randolph Hearst hired as a consultant to stage, with Coca-Cola sponsorship money also …..the William Randolph production of the “Coca-Cola World-Series Golodomor” in the early 1930’s?

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  33. Mr. Hack says:
    @Gerard2

    I don’t know? Do you?

    BTW, I think that you’re a nice guy too. 🙂

  34. @AP

    Lmao, a shitty blog’s debunking attempt of a university professor’s study a fraction of the length? Not surprised it uses shitty arguments like “if right sector was involved why aren’t they on power?”

    The absolute state of nezaležnies.

    • Agree: Mikhail
    • Replies: @AP
  35. It will be nice to see some questions on how exactly Hunter Biden was given a position at Ukraine’s natural gas monopoly with a monthly salary of $50,000 (in a country where the average wage is two orders of magnitude lower) while daddy campaigned against Ukrainian corruption.

    Trump: We shouldn’t have gone in, but we should have kept the oil.

    Biden: Point taken.

    • LOL: AP
  36. Beckow says:
    @neutral

    …exposing corruption of US politicians is election interference

    Correct, it is. So is saying negative stuff about your opponent, any provocative non-conformist things, and questioning ‘experts‘. Even voting – or even not voting – could be construed as ‘election interference’. If there is a superior candidate that all the right people agree on, how dare anyone to interfere? Those who question their betters are stupid, or worse. Or maybe traitors.

    Trump is a natural provocateur with an inability to obey authority. He is breaking the rules about what is proper to say in public – they will never forgive him for that. Biden is going down, but it will hurt Trump too.

    Getting a cushy no-work-required ‘job‘ in a colonial dependency, in a field that one knows nothing about, and collecting the pay remotely – that’s what is called ‘meritocracy‘, as in: it is reserved for people of merit, like the son of the governor. Rome had it, British Empire also had it – what’s there not to like? He was Biden’s son, of course it was based on his merit, what else could it be?

    • Replies: @Kent Nationalist
  37. I’m glad to see the Hunter Biden story get its day in the sun, for even if no law was broken here, it will open more eyes to the true state of Western politics.

    Reading Michael Wolff’s books on the Trump presidency, I was struck by what an incestuous little club our ruling class is. Everyone really does know everyone else. In Wolff’s telling, some hundred — a very few thousand at most — super-rich people are basically running global affairs as a quid-pro-quo racket, where political power is turned into wealth and wealth into political power, the two feeding each other until you have a nice pretty little plutocracy going.

    In the Trump family, of course, the direction is to turn wealth into political power. Wolff has a keen eye for egos and what they do to people, and he is very good at laying out Ivanka Trump and Jared Kushner’s journey from giggly socialites to political powerbrokers:

    The Ivanka-Jared relationship was shepherded by Wendi Murdoch, herself a curious social example (to nobody so much as to her then husband, Rupert). The effort among a new generation of wealthy women was to recast life as a socialite, turning a certain model of whimsy and noblesse oblige into a new status as a power woman, a kind of postfeminist socialite. In this, you worked at knowing other rich people, the best rich people, and of being an integral and valuable part of a network of the rich, and of having your name itself evoke, well . . . riches. You weren’t satisfied with what you had, you wanted more. This required quite a level of indefatigability. You were marketing a product—yourself. You were your own start-up.

    This was what her father had always done. This, more than real estate, was the family business.

    She and Kushner then united as a power couple, consciously recasting themselves as figures of ultimate attainment, ambition, and satisfaction in the new global world and as representatives of a new eco-philanthropic-art sensibility. For Ivanka, this included her friendship with Wendi Murdoch and with Dasha Zhukova, the then wife of the Russian oligarch Roman Abramovich, a fixture in the international art world, and, just a few months before the election, attending a Deepak Chopra seminar on mediation with Kushner. She was searching for meaning—and finding it. This transformation was further expressed not just in ancillary clothing, jewelry, and footwear lines, as well as reality TV projects, but in a careful social media presence. She became a superbly coordinated everymom, who would, with her father’s election, recast herself again, this time as royal family.

    With Biden, the direction of the ambition is not as clear as with the Trumps, but the common themes of nepotism, the-family-as-a-brand, and the blurring of the personal and political are there. This is why I enjoy the attention this story is getting. I’m not even sure the Bidens gave the appointment much thought — this was business as usual, the way things work — but for outsiders, it shines light on how the world truly works, and this is good.

    • Agree: Mr. Hack
  38. @Beckow

    British Empire also had it

    Of course there was nepotism as everywhere but Civil Service positions were given according to competitive exams

    • Replies: @Beckow
  39. @Anonymous

    I do not know where the Dems are going with this. To actually get Trump out of office would require a 2/3 majority of the senate to vote for conviction…do the Dems really think there’s any set of circumstances under which they get those votes?

    My guess is that this is a pre-emptive attack to rob Trump of the possibility of using Biden’s Ukraine shenanigans as ammunition in the 2020 campaign. Some of the Russiagate stuff worked along the same lines. I’m thinking especially of that time when John Brennan publicly all but called Trump a traitor for getting too chummy with Putin when, if anything, it was Brennan letting himself in for that charge, with the “wiretapping” of the Trump Tower and his involvement in the Deep State’s soft-coup against Trump.

    • Replies: @AP
  40. anon[921] • Disclaimer says:

    Trump is obsessed with settling scores over the 2016 election, which he feels is appropriate for anyone to investigate. He isn’t done with it.

    Guiliani has been egging him on. Guilani is inarticulate and bumbling.

    Meanwhile, Democrats are treating this as if it is only about 2020 and Trump is using his power to discredit a rival corruptly.

    This is only interesting because Trump and the Democrats are talking about different things and won’t or can’t acknowledge it.

    It got almost no attention, but in May, CNN reported that Sens. Robert Menendez (D-N.J.), Richard J. Durbin (D-Ill.) and Patrick J. Leahy (D-Vt.) wrote a letter to Ukraine’s prosecutor general, Yuriy Lutsenko, expressing concern at the closing of four investigations they said were critical to the Mueller probe. In the letter, they implied that their support for U.S. assistance to Ukraine was at stake. Describing themselves as “strong advocates for a robust and close relationship with Ukraine,” the Democratic senators declared, “We have supported [the] capacity-building process and are disappointed that some in Kyiv appear to have cast aside these [democratic] principles to avoid the ire of President Trump,” before demanding Lutsenko “reverse course and halt any efforts to impede cooperation with this important investigation.”

    Those are Republican talking points, but the view that 2016 is can’t be discussed is not going to get much traction.

    Why were Trump/Guilini involving themselves? No one else was interested and intelligence/justice branch are openly defying Trump.

    Bad optics all around. A bumbling troll vs partisan hacks. The idea that anyone will look good is far fetched.

  41. @AP

    Counterpoint to Katchanovsky’s claims:

    https://ukraineanalysis.wordpress.com/2014/10/23/the-snipers-massacre-in-kyiv/

    (author is known as an anti-UPA, anti-Bandera writer associated with Himka)

    ::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

    Post-Maidan local political figures in Ukraine won property from Katchanovsky (who is from Volyn) in some dispute so the man has an axe to grind.

    There are always counterarguments. Russian state media has pumped them out for years on the MH17 story even though it’s clear to everyone who has looked at the matter closely that separatists shot down the plane.

    You will also recall that the official narrative on the Maidan shootings has been questioned by anti-Russian sources like the BBC and the Guardian, among many others, so Katchanovsky is far from the only person to raise doubts.

    • Replies: @AP
    , @AnonFromTN
    , @Gerard2
  42. @blatnoi

    In fact, I’m seeing some talk on Al Twitter, that Yanukovich is thinking of coming back to Ukraine soon and his former underlings who are there are calling for it, and for all charges against him to be dropped, since he could unite the country, as there are plenty of people in the East and South who hate the West now. Probably if he comes back, there will be a bigger civil war instead.

    If nothing else, this would make great entertainment, LOL.

  43. @Twinkie

    Sounds stupid (or is he gay?) accepting an unknown powder from a stranger in a bathroom.

  44. AP says:
    @Belarusian Anon

    a shitty blog’s debunking attempt of a university professor’s study

    LOL, you didn’t read it, did you?

    • Replies: @Gerard2
    , @Belarusian Anon
  45. AP says:
    @Swedish Family

    There is also a theory that the Russians setting it up to look like Trump is up to somethng with them, in order to weaken him. And the Dems are going along. It would be ironic if they were the ones actually colluding.

    • Replies: @Swedish Family
  46. AP says:
    @Swedish Family

    I agree. The point is that Katchanovsky’s work is very far from the kind of air-tight discovery anti-Maidan people hope it to be.

  47. Beckow says:
    @Kent Nationalist

    I wasn’t talking about Civil Service. Hunter sat on a ‘board of directors’. This would be closer to the British East India Company, or even more a local outfit (in India or Africa) that generated steady income from resource exploration.

    The difference with Hunter Biden was that Burisma generated no real income and was basically a money-laundering operation to move money in a circular way from Western investors – mostly taxpayers and passive retirement funds – through a few operations back to the Western banks – this time not in the taxpayers’ accounts. There was no work done, thus the occasional cocaine in Monte Carlo. It seems that liberals and left are ok with it, who would have thought they could sink this low…

  48. @blatnoi

    Yanuk is hated by banderites (who paint him as pro-Russian, which he never was) and by East and South as a thief, liar, and traitor. If his return lends him in jail, serves him right. It would be even more fitting if he shares the cell with Porky and Kolomoisky in a special jail for mega-thieves. Ukraine can easily fill a special jail like that with a few hundred of those who stole more than 100 million (I mean US $).

  49. @Swedish Family

    Russian state media has pumped them out for years on the MH17 story even though it’s clear to everyone who has looked at the matter closely that separatists shot down the plane.

    Did the separatists also divert its route a few hundred kilometers to the North from its usual course via European aviation authorities? I never knew they are so powerful.

    • Replies: @Swedish Family
  50. Gerard2 says:
    @Swedish Family

    Russian state media has pumped them out for years on the MH17 story even though it’s clear to everyone who has looked at the matter closely that separatists shot down the plane.

    “Everyone” being boring, Scandinavian homosexual SJW down-Syndrome killing Nazi’s?

    Russia has been the only country , literally ,having an ex military professional or engineer ( including those who actually originally designed the BUK system or Su-25 )on the news or in the papers going through everything that may or may not have happened and every possible scenario.

    If you actually see all the ( it may be different for some of the formerWarsaw pact countries,) Anglo-American reporting on this incident, you will see it is just dumb retard, non-scientifically minded propagandists on a brainwashing operation ( via order from their governments)…..you literally won’t have seen ANY military professional talk about it , any sensible technical evaluation about the event……..only political promotion of Russia being the ” only ones’ who could have done it based on the lies and nonsense reported on Russia over many years, designed to brainwash a lemming like yourself.
    I repeat – absolute no technical evaluation of how the rebels or Russia could have done it in the Anglo-American media. Nothing about the specifications of any weapon used, nothing about the wreckage…..never mind asking the “impossible” and asking these idiots to even think about any of Newtons laws of motion.

    Amusingly enough – the SBU Nazi’s – their own version, amongst a few from the Ukrop government and media, claims totally differently to their masters in the west – but the west completely coversup for this hopeless prostitute of a country . SBU actually released “intercepts” claiming that not even rebels but the Russians did it, intending for it to be a strike at an Aeroflot plane, in order to be the false flag needed to get Russia into the war. Literally, that horseshit is the only stated Ukrop position on what happened!

    Imagine a criminal trial where the ( corrupt) Police claim the person was killed by a knife attack, but the prosecutor claims the person was killed by being run-over by a car – that is the absurdity of the situation.

    If you use your brain, approximate the speed the plane was flying at and direction , consider the length of the debris trail and where wreckage/people were or were not found for a plane travelling at 600-700km/h – then it should be obvious which side did it.

    • Replies: @Swedish Family
    , @Matra
  51. Gerard2 says:
    @AP

    LOL, you didn’t read it, did you?

    That is projection of the highest order. As evidence by a fantasist nutjob as yourself’s idiotic promotion of a toilet like Galicia you idiot via imbecilic links of no value or truth whatsoever.

    Did you manage to find ANY thing seized by the Nazi’s in 2 years of occupation that could ever conceivably be called as belonging to the fake “Ukrainian” culture (LOL)?
    Of course not because:

    A. you can’t speak Russian/”Ukrainian”
    B. You are a nutjob
    C. It doesn’t exist.

    All this fake “history” , all these centuries and absolutely NOTHING to show that separates it from Russia , that was deemed worthy of being seized by the Nazi’s!…….except maybe that golden vishivanka we all “know” Jesus wore at the last supper.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    , @AP
  52. Mr. Hack says:
    @Gerard2

    all these centuries and absolutely NOTHING to show that separates it from Russia:


    Get a grip on man…Grrrr!

  53. Seraphim says:

    There are other untoward things happening in Ukraine. At the time of the ‘granting of autocephaly’ to the so-called OUC, I expressed the idea that the goal is really to push for the ‘unity’ of the ‘orthodox’ with the uniates. It was naturally derided but was it so far-fetched? As it turns out it was not only my idea:

    Fr Andrew [email protected]://www.events.orthodoxengland.org.uk/tag/church-unity/, about the return of the Rue Daru Russian Archdiocese (the former ‘Paris Jurisdiction’, under Constantinople) to the Russian Orthodox Church (Moscow):
    “As perhaps the only priest who had suffered from ‘the blood-dimmed tide’ of all three groups of aggressive, troll-like extremists, I cannot but rejoice with our brothers and sisters who have at last escaped the clutches of the Phanariots. The plot of the Phanar to hand over St Alexander Nevsky Cathedral in Paris to Ukrainian schismatics and rededicate it to apostate traitors and mass-murderers like the robber of souls, Andrei Bobola or Josaphat, has failed.
    Meanwhile, the Phanar’s incoherent and schismatic head, Patriarch Bartholomew, yesterday met Pope Francis and the head of the Ukrainian Uniats in Rome to discuss merging the Uniats with his tiny and failed OCU organization in the Ukraine. A joint Phanariot-Papist Galician Synagogue of Fascist Ukrainian xenophobes may soon be formed there, uniting all haters of the Church of God. It will be financed by the State Department in Washington, which has already sent out its ambassadors in the Balkans to bully and bribe Local Churches into recognizing the Galician Synagogue. In this they failed” (I am afraid that Fr. Andrew is too optimistic – signs that “the mystery of lawlessness is still at work” and it redoubles its efforts to “take out of the way the one who restrains it” are too obvious).

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    , @AP
    , @Korenchkin
  54. Mr. Hack says:
    @Seraphim

    It looks like the Romanian Patriarch is getting quite chummy with Pope Francis and with Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew too, yet I don’t see you exhibiting any serious butt-hurt over these develpments? I’d suggest that you keep your sights set closer to home, lest Patriarch Daniel becomes “incoherent and schizmatic” too. 🙂

    • Replies: @Seraphim
    , @Epigon
    , @AnonFromTN
  55. Hail says: • Website
    @Anatoly Karlin

    Looks like the Dems splashed head first into a puddle

    Unless the target was Uncle Joe Biden.

  56. AP says:
    @Belarusian Anon

    You didn’t read it. It was written by a professor and Katchanovsky’s work was not a real paper (no peer review, just something he slapped together).

    • Replies: @Belarusian Anon
  57. AP says:
    @Seraphim

    Someone is really bitter that Ukraine has northern Bukovyna. This explains all your nonsense.

    Phanar’s incoherent and schismatic head, Patriarch Bartholomew

    So in your world Patriarch of Constantinople is a schismatic.

    merging the Uniats

    If your Romanian nationalism and butthurt didn’t eclipse your Orthodoxy, you would be happy to see the Greek Catholic Church return to Orthodoxy.

    with his tiny and failed OCU organization in the Ukraine.

    OCU has many more believers in Ukraine than does the Moscow Church. Even more, its people actually are devout. They go to church, they don’t abort as much, etc. than do the followers of the Moscow Church.

  58. AP says:
    @Gerard2

    LOL, Sovok “engineer” wants to discuss culture now, even though he cannot even add.

  59. Ghak says:

    How do you stop Western poz when you need the money from the Western poz so you country does not stay as Elbonia? Looking at you Hungary, Poland, Rumania et al.

  60. Seraphim says:
    @Mr. Hack

    Romania and the position of BOR in the matter of Ukrainian ‘autocephaly’ and dalliance with the Pope was not a subject of conversation on this site. Rest assured that in the unlikely event that Romania would ever become a topic of discussions on this site I would be seriously ‘butt-hurt’ if such a specific case as the fall of her hierarchy into schism, promoting a LGBT agenda like the OCU, would arise. It is not unlikely, BOR teeming with Bishops doctors of ‘prestigious’ Catholic Universities and under the greatest pressure (BOR is the second largest Orthodox Church). I actually alluded to this danger in the last sentence of my post which was an expression of ‘butt-hurt’.

    • LOL: Mr. Hack
  61. Epigon says:
    @Mr. Hack

    Arguably, you approached it from the wrong side.
    You should have aimed for Metropolis of Chișinău and All Moldova.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  62. @Seraphim

    There are Evangelical and Jehovas Witness cults working in the Balkans, wish our politicians had the balls to ban those fuckers like the Russians did

    • Replies: @RadicalCenter
  63. @AP

    So in your world Patriarch of Constantinople is a schismatic.

    I’m sorry to say that this is not inaccurate. In principle, legitimacy in the Orthodox Church is a transitive relation and established from the ground up: if legitimate bishop A is in communion with legitimate bishop B, and B with bishop C, then A is by default in communion with C. However, if C has been excommunicated by A and most of the other bishops have accepted that, then B entering communion with C does not legitimize C, but rather deligitimizes B. That’s how it’s always worked.

    What’s at issue is independent of the troubles in Ukraine: the Patriarch of Constantinople has for a long time been violating the canons and flirting with degeneracy. When I mentioned to some “educated, liberal” Athonite monks that I had encountered some “uneducated, extremist” Athonites who think the Patriarch of Constantinople is part of a “Jewish-Masonic” conspiracy to destroy Orthodoxy, they chuckled and said it’s not implausible. I understood this reaction to mean not that they think this is literally true, but that it is a kind of modern fairy tale, believed by peasants, that expresses a deeper truth.

    The point being that a whole lot of Orthodox Christians of different ethnic backgrounds have been deeply dissatisfied with the Patriarch of Constantinople for almost a hundred years, just as many were deeply dissatisfied with the Patriarch of Moscow under the Soviet Union.

    As for your claims about the schismatic Orthodox in Ukraine, it’s an empirical question. Do you have evidence? Certainly I have seen real evidence that the average Donbas Sovok is more degenerate than the average Galician Banderite, and that’s not surprising. In particularly, the Banderites probably “visit” church more often. But what’s more relevant is how many people are keeping the fasts and going to confession and communion every week. Are there reliable polls on this?

    Also, bear in mind that first and second derivatives are more important than initial values. The state of degeneracy in the US did not seem so bad a few decades ago when I was growing up, but the acceleration should have been a warning about the terrifying levels it has since reached.

  64. @The Big Red Scary

    Orthodox Churches (at least where I grew up) actively discourage just “visiting” without bothering to properly fast, pray, etc.

    • Replies: @The Big Red Scary
  65. @Korenchkin

    “The Christian Liturgy, in all of its forms, ancient and modern, East and West, includes a vocal dismissal of catechumens (and others). This invitation to leave the nave of the church is issued in a loud voice by the deacon as he stands on the soleas (the slightly raised area extending out from the templon, or iconostasis, where most of the proclamatory acts of worship take place). In antiquity, the dismissal was significantly longer: not only catechumens, but also heretics (many by name!), Jews, pagans, and then a general one: “cuius non cura est, procedat!” (He who has no business here, depart!). The exact language differed a bit from one liturgy to another, but the principle of dismissing those not worthy to participate in the Eucharist was firmly established from the earliest times. Later, before even the end of the first millenium, the Orthodox Church did not get rid of this, even when the catechumenate faded (everyone was a Christian from their earliest years; adult baptisms became quite rare). So, the habit was maintained in preserving a high spiritual climate in the Eucharist.”

    https://fatherpatrick.wordpress.com/2008/06/14/dismissal-of-the-catechumens-more-on-part-v-of-the-series/.

    • Replies: @Seraphim
  66. AP says:
    @The Big Red Scary

    In principle, legitimacy in the Orthodox Church is a transitive relation and established from the ground up: if legitimate bishop A is in communion with legitimate bishop B, and B with bishop C, then A is by default in communion with C. However, if C has been excommunicated by A and most of the other bishops have accepted that, then B entering communion with C does not legitimize C, but rather deligitimizes B. That’s how it’s always worked.

    It appears that Greece is going along with Constantinople, while the ones under Moscow such as the Polish Church (headed by a former Communist snitch), Serbia, and Antioch (in Syria, beholden to Moscow) have taken Moscow’s side; the other Churches have not taken a side either way. Romania, the third largest Orthodox Church after Russia and Ukraine, seems to lean towards Constantinople. In other words, there is no universal consensus against Constantinople.

    Certainly I have seen real evidence that the average Donbas Sovok is more degenerate than the average Galician Banderite, and that’s not surprising. In particularly, the Banderites probably “visit” church more often. But what’s more relevant is how many people are keeping the fasts and going to confession and communion every week. Are there reliable polls on this?

    I haven’t seen polls about the latter behaviors, but one ought to assume a correlation between weekly church attendance and fasting, confession, and of course weekly communion. I suspect that Galicians (both Orthodox and Greek Catholic – Galicia is 1/3 or so Orthodox) and Volhynian Orthodox, who attend church at high rates, go to confession and partake of communion more often than do Donbassers, who seldom go to church.

    It should be noted that the switchover to the OCU was huge in western Ukrainian Orthodox territories such as Volhynia. This is where the most devout and un-Soviet Orthodox in Ukraine live (paradoxically, the wellspring for much of the Moscow Church’s hierarchy – Onufriy is a western Ukrainian).

    • Replies: @Denis
    , @Kinez
  67. Mr. Hack says:
    @Epigon

    So what’s up in Moldova? Last I read, the ROC and the BOR were locked in “untoward things” each trying to establish its sway in this small country? (I hope that I’m not not breaking any rules here by asking?).

  68. blatnoi says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    For the people in the East, he was still their president and they were not okay with getting rid of him in a coup, even if they agreed that he was corrupt. I work in a place with lots of Eastern Ukrainians and we often meet up for drinks and talk about stuff, sometimes politics. There are four postdocs here just from Kharkov, although the one who was my good friend left a few months ago. One of them said once that basically the fascists are in charge now and the others were approvingly silent and took more sips of beer.

    • Replies: @AP
  69. Well, the actual subject in America must be an empty vessel if this poor thread, reduced to yet another tiresome Ukrainian controversy series, is any indication.

    Anyway, I agree with Anatoly. And also the Z Man. It’s probably a trap for the Democrats.

    Elizabeth Warren must be happy, though.

    https://thezman.com/wordpress/?p=18730

  70. @neutral

    Didn’t know Musk was popular in Russia.

    To some extent, his following overlaps with that of Navalny. Small and loud.

  71. @The Big Red Scary

    RE: “Jewish-Masonic conspiracies”

    He doesn’t bother to explicitly expound upon on it, probably because it would make him look like a “crank” in the eyes of oh so sophisticated mainstream Western historians, but in his book on the revolution, Sean McMeekin mentions multiple times how Kerensky, Sazonov, and the other Russian liberals (who helped sell out the country in February, 1917) were all Freemasons.

    Fun sidenote: Those same St. Petersburg Freemasons were some of the most influential guys who pushed for war in 1914. Particularly Sazonov.

    • Replies: @Denis
  72. @Anatoly Karlin

    An interesting speech by Igor Korotchenko concerning Anglo Russian relations.

  73. Denis says:
    @AP

    It should be noted that the switchover to the OCU was huge in western Ukrainian Orthodox territories such as Volhynia. This is where the most devout and un-Soviet Orthodox in Ukraine live (paradoxically, the wellspring for much of the Moscow Church’s hierarchy – Onufriy is a western Ukrainian).

    Not such a paradox. Many Ukrainians are proud Russian patriots, and Ukraine in general has been the birthplace of many Russian patriotic movements, uprisings and individuals. It makes sense that Russian Christianity would have a wellspring in western Ukraine.

    • Replies: @AP
  74. Denis says:
    @John Burns, Gettysburg Partisan

    You’ve mentioned McMeekin a couple of times now. From what I’ve read about his books, he seems to be not much more than an apologist for Turks. Are his books actually any good?

  75. AP says:
    @blatnoi

    During Maidan about 41% of Ukrainians supported the revolutionaries and 25% supported Yanukovych. So even then, he wasn’t very popular in places like Kharkiv.

    • Replies: @blatnoi
    , @Anatoly Karlin
  76. @Mr. Hack

    Bad news for you: not a single Orthodox Church recognized the monstrosity Bart slapped together in Ukraine. Some even explicitly said that this “new church” is schismatic and non-canonical, whereas the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of Moscow Patriarchate is canonical. What’s more, the snakes started to bite each other. The head of Ukrainian Church of Kiev Patriarchate (also not recognized by any fellow Churches) Denisenko poured buckets of dirt on that new monstrosity and its head, as well as on Bart and the whole “Tomos” rigmarole that proclaimed autocephaly of the new Ukrainian church in words, while making it subject to Fanar rules and decisions. One can only say that in full agreement with the Bible, Bart is reaping what he has sown.

    • Disagree: Mr. Hack
    • Replies: @AP
    , @Mr. Hack
  77. AP says:
    @Denis

    Ukraine in general has been the birthplace of many Russian patriotic movements, uprisings and individuals.

    Not really. There was a Little Russian movement that was pro-Russian, but most of its people became Ukrainian activists later. There were Russophiles in Galicia, but they were outnumbered.

    It makes sense that Russian Christianity would have a wellspring in western Ukraine.

    The reason is that Western Ukrainians go to church and generally are a devout people; they weren’t Sovietized sufficiently. They are like Poles- both the Greek Catholics and the Orthodox. The Moscow Church still had a presence there not due to Russophilia but because many of the local devout people were suspicious of the schismatic unrecognized Filaret Church. Recognition by Constantinople has given these people a way out, and they’ve taken it. Most of the flipped churches have been in these parts of Ukraine. The Moscow Church has lost its wellspring.

    • Replies: @Denis
    , @Seraphim
  78. AP says:
    @AnonFromTN

    The fact that an atheist Sovietophile sometime apologist for Stalin like you is taking a side here – and the side of Moscow’s Church – is both typical and instructive.

  79. Mr. Hack says:
    @AnonFromTN

    One can only say that in full agreement with the Bible, Bart is reaping what he has sown.

    An atheistic vatnik knows the bible enough to make such an absurd claim? Jannissar, get a life! 🙂

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  80. @AP

    I do not pretend that I believe in any of the thousands of gods known to man. Thing is, what Bart did has nothing to do with religion, either. If he believed, he’d know that according to Orthodox teachings he guaranteed himself a place in Hell with no redemption. His move was purely political, inspired (or directed) by godless State Department, so it has to be discussed as such. An appeal to Orthodox religion would inevitably condemn his actions.

    • Agree: Anatoly Karlin
    • LOL: Mr. Hack
    • Replies: @AP
  81. @Mr. Hack

    I found experimentally that I know the Bible, which I read twice, in Church Slavonic and in English (King James version) a lot better than practically every self-proclaimed Christian I’ve met. I suspect that Christian Churches discourage their flock from reading the Bible to preempt uncomfortable questions.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    , @RadicalCenter
  82. @AP

    There is also a theory that the Russians setting it up to look like Trump is up to somethng with them, in order to weaken him. And the Dems are going along. It would be ironic if they were the ones actually colluding.

    That’s one wild theory, heh.

    Where you stand on these things, I think, comes down to your mental model of Putin. To me, he is basically a risk-averse status-quo man, and so I tend to brush off these kinds of theories. But if you don’t, the idea of a Russia on the offense makes a kind of sense.

    • Replies: @AP
  83. @AnonFromTN

    Did the separatists also divert its route a few hundred kilometers to the North from its usual course via European aviation authorities? I never knew they are so powerful.

    I haven’t reviewed the details in a year or two, but Karlin wrote a long post on it two years ago that very strongly pointed to the separatists being behind it (and make sure to read Karlin’s important correction in comment #9).

    http://www.unz.com/akarlin/mh17/

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  84. @Swedish Family

    Well, there are plenty of questions that “investigators” studiously avoid even asking (maybe because they are afraid to get the answers). One is the route: why it was changed on that particular day? (see: https://www.globalresearch.ca/malaysian-airlines-mh17-was-ordered-to-fly-over-the-east-ukraine-warzone/5392540). Especially considering that its usual flight route [across the sea of Azov] was earlier declared safe by the International Civil Aviation Organization. The other is altitude: why did Ukrainian authorities tell it to fly at 33,000 feet instead of optimal 35,000 feet, which were in the original flight plan (ibid). Thus, whoever shot it down had enough influence to divert it and make it fly lower. Neither points to Donbass freedom fighters or Russia, wouldn’t you say?

    These are facts, as opposed to opinions expressed by various people in their blogs and elsewhere.

    • Replies: @Swedish Family
  85. @Gerard2

    Russia has been the only country , literally ,having an ex military professional or engineer ( including those who actually originally designed the BUK system or Su-25 )on the news or in the papers going through everything that may or may not have happened and every possible scenario.

    In a perfect world, this would be all the evidence one needs, but in the real world, Russian state media sometimes lies to its viewers to protect state interests, just like any other state media in the history of the world.

    If it makes you feel better, the top Swedish correspondent in Moscow in the early 90s, and no friend of Putinism, claimed that the West knows* that those who manned the Buk missile panicked once they understood their mistake and that they didn’t know how to divert the missile from its target in mid-air (which supposedly experienced operators might have).

    * I think he wrote that there were recordings or some such, but I don’t quite remember. The comment was in a print magazine that I don’t have at hand.

    • Replies: @Matra
  86. Denis says:
    @AP

    There was a Little Russian movement that was pro-Russian, but most of its people became Ukrainian activists later. There were Russophiles in Galicia, but they were outnumbered.

    Well, this doesn’t really contradict what I said anyways, but off the top of my head, there are the Galician Russophile movement, the Khelmisnky uprising, the Targowica confederates, and the modern Donbass rebels, for Russian patriotic movements in Ukraine. For individuals, Sergey Kislyak, Dmitry Medvedev, and Vladimir Medinsky are all of Ukrainian origin, just to name a few. Although I suppose you could debate whether these guys are “real” patriots.

    The reason is that Western Ukrainians go to church and generally are a devout people; they weren’t Sovietized sufficiently. They are like Poles- both the Greek Catholics and the Orthodox.

    You mean almost half of them approve of homosexuality, like Poles? That doesn’t sound very religious of them.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recognition_of_same-sex_unions_in_Europe

    The Moscow Church still had a presence there not due to Russophilia but because many of the local devout people were suspicious of the schismatic unrecognized Filaret Church. Recognition by Constantinople has given these people a way out, and they’ve taken it. Most of the flipped churches have been in these parts of Ukraine. The Moscow Church has lost its wellspring.

    My comment was not about the modern popularity of Russia in western Ukraine, obviously hostility to Russia has increased dramatically there. It was simply an observation that since many patriotic Russians are of Ukrainian origin, it makes sense that many patriotic and religious, Russians would also be of Ukrainian origin.

    • Replies: @AP
  87. Matra says:
    @Gerard2

    Russia has been the only country , literally ,having an ex military professional or engineer ( including those who actually originally designed the BUK system or Su-25 )on the news or in the papers going through everything that may or may not have happened and every possible scenario.

    Russia was also the only country to veto setting up an international tribunal to prosecute those responsible despite originally asking for one. It was the only country whose troops* obstructed the original investigators arriving on the scene. It was the only country whose media outlets to flooded airwaves with wild and often contradictory conspiracy theories in the weeks after the shootdown. And It was the only country whose Hasbara-style trolls targeted every aviation forum with crude talking points. But, hey, I’m sure they had nothing to hide.

    * OK, technically, not troops of the Russian state but of the separatists.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  88. Matra says:
    @Swedish Family

    If it makes you feel better, the top Swedish correspondent in Moscow in the early 90s, and no friend of Putinism, claimed that the West knows* that those who manned the Buk missile panicked once they understood their mistake and that they didn’t know how to divert the missile from its target in mid-air (which supposedly experienced operators might have).

    They had been bombarded by Ukrainian planes. I don’t think any sane person believes they deliberately shot down a passenger airline.

    • Replies: @Swedish Family
  89. @AnonFromTN

    Well, there are plenty of questions that “investigators” studiously avoid even asking (maybe because they are afraid to get the answers). One is the route: why it was changed on that particular day? (see: https://www.globalresearch.ca/malaysian-airlines-mh17-was-ordered-to-fly-over-the-east-ukraine-warzone/5392540). Especially considering that its usual flight route [across the sea of Azov] was earlier declared safe by the International Civil Aviation Organization. The other is altitude: why did Ukrainian authorities tell it to fly at 33,000 feet instead of optimal 35,000 feet, which were in the original flight plan (ibid). Thus, whoever shot it down had enough influence to divert it and make it fly lower. Neither points to Donbass freedom fighters or Russia, wouldn’t you say?

    These are facts, as opposed to opinions expressed by various people in their blogs and elsewhere.

    I’m sure there are more facts than those Karlin could cover, but these things you bring up don’t seem to me nearly enough to tilt the evidence in favor of the separatists.

    With your family ties to the Donbass, I understand why you don’t want this to be so, but it’s important not to get bogged down in blind partisanship. Mistakes are always made.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  90. @Matra

    They had been bombarded by Ukrainian planes. I don’t think any sane person believes they deliberately shot down a passenger airline.

    No, of course not. His point was that this pointed at the operators being separatists rather than Russian servicemen (who would know how to divert the missile in mid-air).

  91. Mr. Hack says:
    @AnonFromTN

    Well, since you’re such an expert regarding the bible, please explain just what part of the bible Patriarch Bartholomew is is abrogating to be “reaping what he has sown” What exactly is he “reaping”?

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  92. @Swedish Family

    No doubt everyone makes mistakes. But the unexplained dramatic change of route (first explained by the weather, which was proven to be a lie) and ordered change of altitude require explanations. “Investigators” did not even ask for these explanations. Besides, aviation history shows that the investigation of plane crashes usually takes less than a year. Something that lasts for five years and does not ask obvious questions, and does not involve even electron microscopic examination of holes in the fuselage (a standard thing when a projectile is suspected) does not look like an honest investigation. It looks more like a fox investigating a break-in into the chicken coop.

    So, my views have nothing to do with partisanship. In fact, the “investigation” is so partisan and dishonest, that even Malaysian authorities (who were not allowed to participate in the investigation, despite rules and standard practices) started complaining loudly.

    If you have innocent explanations of these and numerous other facts, please present them.

  93. @Matra

    The main difference between a regular court and a “tribunal” is that in court you need evidence, whereas in tribunal hot air suffices. Thus, those who demand tribunal instead of a court hearing thereby acknowledges that they don’t have evidence presentable in court.

  94. @Mr. Hack

    As the New Testament states, “you will know them by their fruit”. Porky’s and Bart’s political moves lead to a lot of non-Christian violence against churches and church-goers in Ukraine (as described in detail recently by a report to OSCE “Persecution of Ukrainian Orthodox Church during the conflict in Ukraine, 2016-2018” here: https://www.osce.org/permanent-council/428258?download=true).

    If I were a Christian, I’d say that the Devil rejoices.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    , @AP
  95. Mr. Hack says:
    @AnonFromTN

    Of course, I’m against any forceful methods used to enforce compliant attendance to any church. Just because there’s a report written expressing that such violations were made, this doesn’t necessarily mean that there were. I know for a fact that Moscow is spending an inordinate amount of money in their propaganda war against Ukraine and its new church. Having you as a fan of the Moscow church does not instill any trust within me in any documents that you like to spread around.

    I think that the idea of Ukraine having its own patriarchate is a good one, and in time will help unite the country. What’s wrong with Ukraine having its own Patriarchate anyway?

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  96. @Mr. Hack

    In and of itself, there is nothing wrong with any nation having its own patriarchate. But honest and Christian way of achieving this goal is to begin with church-goers, conduct a poll, and then proceed based on the results. When this is done by a mega-thief Porky playing “president”and the regime that kills and tortures scores people in the most non-Christian manner, it is an obvious fraud.

    Mixing religion and politics always leads to the actions only the Devil would approve of. This applies to Crusades, conquest of the Americas, many actions by colonial powers in Africa or Asia. It also applies to highly politicized attempt to establish a Church in Ukraine controlled by a former captain of the Turkish army Bart (fittingly, a Patriarch of Constantinople, which does not exist and did not exist for centuries), all in an attempt to separate it from Moscow patriarchate.

    Mind you, I am no fan of Kirill. When I read about his super-expensive watch, an apartment in Moscow costing millions, and equally expensive library of ancient books in that apartment, I can only quote the New Testament: “And again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God” (Matthew, 19:24). The same applies to Bart, Denisenko, and many others. Again, quoting New Testament: “It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves”.

    Read your Bible sometimes, it is worthy reading.

  97. Mr. Hack says:
    @AnonFromTN

    An important concept within Christianity is that to willfully deny that the God represented within the scriptures is indeed your Lord, is unforgivable. From an Orthodox perspective:

    “Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit” is conscious and hardened opposition to the truth, “because the Spirit is truth” (1 John 5:6). Conscious and hardened resistance to the truth leads man away from humility and repentance, and without repentance there can be no forgiveness. That is why the sin of blasphemy against the Spirit cannot be forgiven, since one who does not acknowledge his sin does not seek to have it forgiven.

    — Serafim Alexivich Slobodskoy, The Eighth Article of the Creed

    You say proudly that you’ve read the bible at least two times? And you’ve rejected the truths within?

    O yo yoy…

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  98. @Mr. Hack

    Christianity is a group of 30-50 sects, big and small, who interpret the Bible differently. There are hundreds of other religions, many of which have their own “holy” books saying various things. Many religions have a lot of stories that are not collected into a single book. Bottom line is, there are too many gods to take them seriously.

    • LOL: Mr. Hack
    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    , @Mikel
    , @Korenchkin
  99. AP says:
    @AnonFromTN

    If he believed, he’d know that according to Orthodox teachings he guaranteed himself a place in Hell with no redemption.

    By bringing in tens of millions of believers out of schism?

    Or because he went against the Church still riddled by KGB informants at its highest levels?

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  100. Mr. Hack says:
    @AnonFromTN

    We’re not talking about some offbeat topic found within Christianity, but one that is mainstream for most all Christian denominations. I’m asking you as a reader of the bible (twice) to comment on this admonition through your own “worthy reading”? Besides, the comment that I’ve quoted comes from a well respected theologian of the ROC, so it has to be correct.

  101. Kinez says:
    @AP

    It appears that Greece is going along with Constantinople, while the ones under Moscow such as the Polish Church (headed by a former Communist snitch), Serbia, and Antioch (in Syria, beholden to Moscow) have taken Moscow’s side;

    The Serb Orthodox Church is not “under Moscow”. The Serb Orthodox Church has been autocephalous since 1219; the ROC since 1448. Every local church is administratively independent and equal to the others. As for the “OCU”, no-one except the Phanariotes has recognised it.

    • Replies: @AP
  102. @AP

    What schism are you talking about? Ukrainian Orthodox Church led by Onufriy is recognized by all Orthodox Churches in the world. In contrast, the Church led by Epiphanius is not recognized by any except Bart, who created it. Several Greek monasteries went so far as to refuse entry to “priests” of that church.

    What millions of believers you are talking about? Only Church led by Onufriy has millions of followers, the others only dream of millions, while pouring dirt on each other, like Denisenko (Filaret) does on Epiphanius (who likely deserves it, although it’s hardly surprising that the dirt comes from Denisenko, he is full of it).

    What Bart did is as non-Christian as you can imagine, as Christianity disapproves of violence. If you are an Orthodox Christian, Bart, Filaret, Epiphanius, and Macarius committed one of the gravest sins in that branch: the sin of schism.

    Judging by his actions, Bart believes in God no more than I do. He also believes in money a lot more than I do. If Christian God exists, Bart would be punished by eternal damnation.

    • Replies: @AP
  103. AP says:
    @Swedish Family

    That’s one wild theory, heh.

    Not really. All it takes is to have some lawyer connected to your government meet with a naive or politically inexperienced person in the administration, and bingo – you have caused domestic problems and hobbled your adversary a little bit.

    It’s certainly plausible.

    Objectively Trump’s administration has been tougher on Russia than were the Democrats. It would be funny if the unrealistic idea that he is Russia’s stooge is helped along by the Kremlin.

    This view is detailed here:

    https://streetwiseprofessor.com/putins-very-useful-idiots/

    [Former CIA Moscow station Chief Dan Hoffman] points to the infamous 2016 Trump Tower meeting, which he says was a deliberately discoverable Russian operation.

    “I think what Vladimir Putin was thinking is the best way to soil our Democratic processes, link the Trump campaign in some conspiratorial way, because it’s Russia, back to the Kremlin.”

    Two years on from that meeting, President Donald Trump and his team are still being investigated over allegations of Russian collusion.
    . . . .
    Mr Hoffman says the Trump Tower meeting has the Russian President’s fingerprints all over it.

    “It wasn’t meant to be a clandestine operation, that’s the last place he would ever do that. There’s too much security, too much press, too many people there,” he said.

    “What I think Vladimir Putin was doing, was deliberately leaving a trail of breadcrumbs from Trump Tower to the Kremlin.

    “I see the full spectrum of Russian intelligence operations and frankly, if the media can find something that Russia did, like the meeting at Trump Tower, then it was meant to be found.”
    . . . .
    Mr Hoffman believes Mr Putin’s intention was to spark a media frenzy.

    “[It was] kind of like a poison pill. Eventually the media will expose them,” he said. [Emphasis added.]

    In other words, the politicians and journalists (and special prosecutors?) who have freaked out about the Trump Tower meeting are the ones who fell for Putin’s machinations. It is the politicians and journalists (and special prosecutors?) who have been Putin’s instrument in destabilizing American democracy. It is they who have been Putin’s pawns, not Trump. In their unreasoning hatred of Trump, they fell right into a trap that Putin laid.

    This was my first reaction to the Trump Tower meeting “bombshell” back in 2017. It’s not that complicated to figure this out–there would have been no reason for the meeting if Trump had been colluding with Putin all along. It is the allegations of collusion that have advanced Putin’s interest, not collusion itself–and setting up a meeting like that in June, 2016 was an obvious way of stoking those allegations. But to see someone from the CIA endorse this rather obvious logic is quite interesting. It signals that the collusion story is effectively dead, and never should have drawn a breath in the first place.

  104. AP says:
    @Denis

    but off the top of my head, there are the Galician Russophile movement, the Khelmisnky uprising, the Targowica confederates

    There was the Galician Russophile movement. Ironically, furthest from Russia, it was the only one that was Russian nationalist.

    Khmelytsky uprising was a Polish civil war. Khmelytsky chose to ally with Rusisa last, he preferred the Tatars but they betrayed him. At the time of his death he was already plotting with the Swedes against the Tsar. He was no Russian nationalist.

    Targowica confederates were Polish magnates who “betrayed” Poland in favor of their traditonal liberties by siding with the Tsar against the nascent Polish nationalists who were trying to transform their state into a more modern centralized one at the expense of the magnates. They were no kind of Russian nationalists.

    modern Donbass rebels

    On the country’s fringe, and largely composed of ethnic Russians (Donetsk had more ethnic Russians than Ukrainans in it).

    The reason is that Western Ukrainians go to church and generally are a devout people; they weren’t Sovietized sufficiently. They are like Poles- both the Greek Catholics and the Orthodox.

    You mean almost half of them approve of homosexuality, like Poles? That doesn’t sound very religious of them.

    In that respect Western Ukrainians are different from Poles. But tolerance of gays (not the same as approval) while not aborting children, not divorcing, not having kids out of wedlock, not engaging in activites that get one HIV or other STDs, while going to churuch weekly – gives an overall picture of a more Christian people than in the more Sovietized world to the East.

    • Replies: @Gerard2
    , @Denis
  105. AP says:
    @AnonFromTN

    Claim by a Russian government offiical. Totally credible, no exaggeration or propaganda.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  106. @AP

    Ukrainian Orthodox Church led by Onufriy made a lot of complaints to the Ukrainian government, citing many of the same incidents.

    Are you saying that Ukrainian government officials are any more trustworthy than Russian? LOL.

    • Replies: @AP
  107. AP says:
    @Kinez

    The Serb Orthodox Church is not “under Moscow”. The Serb Orthodox Church has been autocephalous since 1219; the ROC since 1448.

    I did not imply that Serbia or Antioch are under Moscow but I could have worded it better.

    As for the “OCU”, no-one except the Phanariotes has recognised it.

    This process typically takes decades. However:

    https://risu.org.ua/en/index/all_news/orthodox/ocu/76984/

    The official website of the Orthodox Church of Greece made a release on the results of the meeting of the Holy Synod, held on August 26-28 this year.

    According to the recommendations of the Synodal committees for the dogmatic and canonical issues, as well as Orthodox and inter-Christian relations regarding the Ukrainian question, the Holy Synod of the Orthodox CHurch of Greece “recognizes the right of the Ecumenical Patriarch to grant autocephaly as his canonical right; it refers the privilege of the Primate of the Greek Church to pursue the issue of recognition of the Church of Ukraine.” It was reported by Cerkvarium.

    ::::::::::::

    https://risu.org.ua/en/index/all_news/orthodox/ocu/77177/

    The Orthodox Church of Ukraine (OCU) was de facto recognized by another local Orthodox Church. This was reported on the official page of the OCU on Facebook.

    It is reported that on September 11-14, a delegation of the OCU visited the Metropolis of Langada in Greece and took part in the worship service on the occasion of the church festival near Thessalonica. It is also reported that in addition to the hierarchs of the Patriarchate of Constantinople and the Church of Greece and the OCU, Bishop Chrysostom of Mozambique (Karangunis) participated in the worship.

    “The concelebration of the Bishop from South Africa t the Divine Liturgy witnessed the Eucharistic unity, that is, the actual recognition of the Orthodox Church of Ukraine as another local Church,” the report said.

  108. AP says:
    @AnonFromTN

    Are you saying that Ukrainian government officials are any more trustworthy than Russian? LOL.

    No, but not any less either. If the only source for such a claim was either government one should be suspicious.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    , @Gerard2
  109. @AP

    If the only source for such a claim was either government one should be suspicious.

    Exactly. Now go over the things you propound here and cross out the ones that are based on claims by Ukrainian government. How much would be left?

    • Replies: @AP
  110. AP says:
    @AnonFromTN

    What schism are you talking about? Ukrainian Orthodox Church led by Onufriy is recognized by all Orthodox Churches in the world

    The majority of Orthodox in Ukraine were in schism. Onifiy’s Churuch had more parishes (legacy of Soviet times) but fewer believers. Ukriane is the second largest Orthodox country in the world. More Orthodox were schismatics in Ukrane, than the total number of Orthodox in places like Serbia or Bulgaria.

    This was a terrible situation. Constantinople resolved it by taking in those people under its wing.

    Even better, it took control over the Church. Local Church hierarchies in both Russia and Ukraine were riddled by KGB informants such as Filaret. It is good that they have been sidelined.

    Only Church led by Onufriy has millions of followers, the others only dream of millions,

    No, numerous polls show Onifriyis church with far fewer believers. Moreover, his “believers” tend to be concentrated in the non-church-going parts of Ukraine, they are the sort who go to church once a year but abort and have kids out of wedlock. You might be such a “believer.”

    In contrast, the Church led by Epiphanius is not recognized by any except Bart

    This process typically takes decades. However the Greek synod has already declared that the move was canonical. This is the last step before recognition.

  111. AP says:
    @AnonFromTN

    If the only source for such a claim was either government one should be suspicious.

    Exactly. Now go over the things you propound here and cross out the ones that are based on claims by Ukrainian government. How much would be left?

    “Based on” is not the same as “claim by.” Some other credible party agreeing with a particular claim by some government official is not the same as the claim by the official. Unlike you I don’t describe claims by government officials as facts.

    So now we know that you repeat and believe claims by internet hoaxes, and statements by Russian government officials.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  112. @AP

    I remember that you cited Ukrainian government stats. If that’s credible, I am the Emperor of the East, and you should address me “Your Majesty”. LOL.

    • Replies: @Gerard2
    , @AP
  113. Gerard2 says:
    @AP

    No, but not any less either. If the only source for such a claim was either government one should be suspicious.

    LOL……..Lets see now –

    Russian government official –

    about 1000 x less corrupt than a Ukrainian one, lives in a country where , unlike Ukraine, they actually arrest and imprison corrupt officials – from the very highest, to middle to low ranking of the CK/Interior Ministry/FSB and all levels of government

    Lives in a country where , objectively, the leadership under Putin, and under Putin /Medvedev has improved the country and doesn’t get thrown out in elections getting 4% or something shit like that..and of course lives in a country much more wealthy and with better facilities to make less motivation to lie

  114. Gerard2 says:
    @AnonFromTN

    I remember that you cited Ukrainian government stats. If that’s credible, I am the Emperor of the East, and you should address me “Your Majesty”. LOL.

    There is that, plus anything that involves a “rate” is completely worthless…the denominator could be anything, probably should 23 million but they could be using anything from 36 million to 40 or 42.

    But of course, completely untrustworthy, insidious, …there was a hilarious feature a few months ago about cows that were tracked down as still being alive, whom the ukrops were recording as having killed and exported!! Lying about cows..yep, that is where they are at !!

  115. blatnoi says:
    @AP

    What I’m getting from this thread is that you and Hack are some sort of Ukrainian patriots? Look, your percentages for revolutionary support are underwhelming and that 25% becomes the majority in Kharkov. Plus like I said, does that lack of support mean that they supported a coup to get the president out that they elected, and replaced with diametrically opposed views? The civil war suggests ‘no’.

    I actually talk to real Ukrainians and one was a really good friend of mine from Kharkov, so I have direct anecdotal data. There is another guy from Nikolaev here, who has a British passport and when we started talking about Ukrainian language, he said it’s shit and that he will never teach it to his children, and then started berating Putin for selling out Russia and not fighting back against US plans hard enough in Ukraine. The only pro-Ukrainian guy here is an 70 year old guy from Kiev who still watches TV and who said that the TV told him that the Russian army is so poor that the soldiers on the Ukraine border have to get part-time jobs in local farms to stay fed. It didn’t seem very believable to me. All the young people with PhDs from the East are anti Bandera and anti coup.

    You might feel good about making some point here, but if it doesn’t have any basis in reality, there is not much point to it. At best you’ll convince a few readers who don’t have any impact on policy. I read these posts and comments to get interesting tidbits, as opinion, and that includes my own, can be wrong. But I’m not going to be convinced by unz message board Ukrainian activists (I’m not sure you two were even born there?) as to the levels of support for the coup in Eastern Ukraine, over my real-life, multi-day drinking experience with my Ukrainian friends.

    • Replies: @AP
    , @Dmitry
  116. Seraphim says:
    @AP

    Ukraine was the birthplace of many Russian ‘patriots’ like Trotsky, Zinoviev, Kaganovitch (of ‘Holodomor’ memory).

  117. AP says:
    @AnonFromTN

    I remember that you cited Ukrainian government stats.

    1. Because government stats are equivalent to some diplomatic official’s claims.

    2. Mostly I cite stats from third parties like Worldbank.

    You, on the other hand, cite internet hoaxes.

  118. AP says:
    @blatnoi

    Look, your percentages for revolutionary support are underwhelming and that 25% becomes the majority in Kharkov.

    No, 25% spread among the eastern and southern half of the country becomes 50% there. Or more realistically, his support was concentrated in in his home territory of Donbas (Kharkiv is not Donbas) and thus under 50% in even Kharkiv.

    Plus like I said, does that lack of support mean that they supported a coup to get the president out that they elected, and replaced with diametrically opposed views?

    1. A revolution is not a “coup.”

    2. 41% of Ukraine’s population supported the revolution, 25% supported the government, the rest supported neither side. If it were an election it would have 66% turnout with the revolution winning 63% to 37%. Revolution would, of course, lose in Kharkiv.

    I actually talk to real Ukrainians and one was a really good friend of mine from Kharkov, so I have direct anecdotal data

    Your “direct anecdotal data” led you to the ridiculous conclusion that Yanukovich has popularity in Ukraine.

    I actually visit the country regularly and am in regular contact with people from there in my church and among family who live there.

    The civil war suggests ‘no’.

    “Civil war” limited to the corner of the country, dependent on Russian aide, so no widespread serious opposition.

    All the young people with PhDs from the East are anti Bandera and anti coup.

    And coincidentally they are from the country’s eastern regions.

    • Replies: @blatnoi
  119. Seraphim says:
    @The Big Red Scary

    The dismissal of the catechumens and others had nothing to do with ‘worth’. Participation in the ‘mystery’ (taina) of the Eucharist was permitted only to baptized people. Catechumens were not yet baptized but preparing for baptism. The first part of the Liturgy (of the Catechumens) was ‘didactic’, so everyone could participate in the hope that they would be converted.
    For the ones baptized their worthiness to commune was established after confession and repentance.

  120. @AP

    I don’t actually recall AnonFromTN apologizing for Stalin. He’s not Sergey Krieger, or that Lyttenburgh nutjob.

    • Replies: @AP
    , @Mikhail
  121. AP says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    He wrote:

    https://www.unz.com/akarlin/ecfr-poll-on-european-ir-preferences/#comment-3458704

    “Stalin did many good things and a lot of despicable things. Painting him all white or all black is equally untrue. The same goes for many things done by the Soviet Union after Stalin.”

    So I think that calling him a “sometime apologist for Stalin ” is not inaccurate.

    But yes, he is not as ridiculous and loathsome on this issue as those guys.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  122. @AP

    It was 40% for vs. 45% against as I recall, but I am too lazy to cite that poll for the nth time… it was from February 2014.

    I assume your poll was probably right after the Revolution itself and the Maidan shootings.

    • Replies: @AP
    , @Gerard2
  123. MEH 0910 says:
    @Hail

    • Replies: @Hail
  124. Gerard2 says:
    @AP

    [MORE]

    not having kids out of wedlock,

    LOL.only a hapless fantasist tramp as yourself could shamelessly come out with this nonsense…..whilst the head of this fake and already catastrophically failed new Ukrainian church , Dumenko, is actually……. the bastard son of one of Filarets treasurers! Because of that shame he was brought up bythe mother alone because her husband ( this pricks fake “father” )also walked out before the bastard son could even crawl. Of course Dumenko can’t be blamed for that…….but to be the fake church leader with that history?!!!

    Here is one of Khlemanitsky’s famous “pious sons”….. https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/9880743/dad-beth-shipsey-diet-pills-ukraine/

    In that respect Western Ukrainians are different from Poles. But tolerance of gays (not the same as approval) while not aborting children, not divorcing, not having kids out of wedlock, not engaging in activites that get one HIV or other STDs, while going to churuch weekly – gives an overall picture of a more Christian people than in the more Sovietized world to the East.

    This is amazingly retarded – A. it’s not true B. A massive proportion in western Ukraine have gone since 1991 to live in the cities with better life and job prospects you idiot……..that means masses have gone to Kiev, Kharkov, Odessa, Nikolaev and so on . Using the statistics of the poorest and sparsely populated area of the country, much higher rural population is idiotic – – particularly when Kiev hotels are full of Ivano-Frankovsk whores .

    HIV or other STDs

    Again – these are city issues you retard, HIV mainly due to the drug issue. Poor, rice collecting peasants in Indian “middle of nowhere” are more likely to be in big families, less HIV/std likely than some educated or skilled professional living in a proper house in a decent area of Mumbai you braindead clown. It is the same principle here.except laughably Galicia can’t even claim to have that much superior birth rate/ divorces or family size than other areas of Ukropia you idiot

    aborting children

    ….areas of worst hospitals, area with some of the worst access to western products ( even though it borders it), has allegedly “low abortion levels” – probably not true you idiot. Anyway, as I have said, due to the large number that have moved elsewhere….it is pointless to come to that conclusion of low abortion. But make no mistake, alot of western Ukrainians have to travel more than a bit to get the healthcare they want

    while going to churuch weekly

    LOL……are these the same ukrop-Soros-OUN BS propagated by wikipedia plaigirising cretins like yourself that claim in 2001 25% of people in Kiev speak Russian……..when you can walk kilometers in the street there any not hear a single word of “Ukrainian?
    Your garbage isn’t true. – but anyway the rest of the country gain far more of their culture, their identity and so on from their church than these maggots in Galicia. But the filth that calls themself your grandparents or father will be burning in hell – because swine like that have no humanity, only have religion like a football team not as something to actually practise.

    • Replies: @AP
  125. AP says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    I looked it up.

    http://www.kiis.com.ua/?lang=eng&cat=reports&id=231&y=2014&m=2&page=1

    Country-wide, it was 40% for the protesters and 23% for Yanukovich. The rest either supported neither side or were unsure.

    Interesting: women were more likely to support Yanukovich than men were (though more still opposed him)

    Peak Yanukovich support was people over 70. This was the only demographic where he was more popular than was Maidan.

    So the peak anti-Maidan Yanukovich supporter would be an elderly female Sovok from eastern Ukraine.

    Poll was conducted February 8-18 while Yanukovich was still in power.

    • Replies: @Gerard2
    , @Anatoly Karlin
  126. Gerard2 says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    I assume your poll was probably right after the Revolution itself and the Maidan shootings.

    Yes, right after the shootings ( so not actually that bad), and certainly higher than anything Yushchenko or Poroshenko/Valtsman were absole to aspire to in their failed presidencies….and doesn’t even measure that badly against most western leaders.

    I would even argue that an equal percentage of Ukrainians were as strongly against another colour revolution, as Russians are – loads of ukrops I know, much of the ukrop media frequently talked in the years before 2014 of not allowing another one, and “evolution better than revolution” blablabla. Even plenty of the ukrop atlanticists and nationalists were saying similar things

  127. AP says:
    @Gerard2

    We know that as a Sovok engineer you can’t even count.

    Using the statistics of the poorest and sparsely populated area of the country

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Ukrainian_oblasts_and_territories_by_salary

    Ternopil has the lowest wages but Chernihiv (northeast) is second lowest, and Luhansk is fourth lowest.

    these are city issues you retard, HIV mainly due to the drug issue.

    Lviv has twice the population of Luhansk but 1/4 the HIV rate.

    HIV map in Ukraine looks like the split between the OCU Church and the Moscow Church:

    Eastern Sovok Ukraine: birth rate of Japan, HIV rate of Africa.

    that claim in 2001 25% of people in Kiev speak Russian

    I never made that claim.

    when you can walk kilometers in the street there any not hear a single word of “Ukrainian?

    Not true. Kiev is about 10% Ukrainian-speaking.

    Ukraine, religious communities per 10,000 people:

  128. Gerard2 says:
    @AP

    Poll was conducted February 8-18 while Yanukovich was still in power.

    So 3 months after non-stop protests, after EU/US politicians sharply criticizing ( and placing sanctions on him), 3 months of paralysis in the main city in the country….and in the Rada and all other state institutions of the country, 3 months of non-stop propaganda against him by the influential NATO press………Yanukovich ended with lesser rating, but STILL significantly higher than anything Yushchenko or Poroshenko could dream of

    Pretty much all these Maidan “activists” and “intellectuals” have been kicked out of power in the last elections anyway you POS

  129. Seraphim says:
    @AP

    I certainly would be happy to see the Uniates returning to Orthodoxy, but it looks the other way round, the enlargement of the Unia under the banner of Ukrainian national unity.

  130. Gerard could you stop shitting all over this thread or I’ll just start flat out deleting all your posts without reading them.

    • Replies: @Gerard2
  131. Denis says:
    @AP

    Khmelytsky uprising was a Polish civil war. Khmelytsky chose to ally with Rusisa last, he preferred the Tatars but they betrayed him. At the time of his death he was already plotting with the Swedes against the Tsar. He was no Russian nationalist.

    Well, it’s not like I can ask him myself. In my opinion, the course of his life was tragic, and his struggle was heroic. But the practical outcome of his works was to bring Ukrainians into the Russian fold, which is good, and for this, I commend him as a Russian hero. Meanwhile, Poles and some anti-Russians in Ukraine have historically (apparently) abused him for the same reason.

    Three cheers for Khmelnytsky, whose name I misspelled!

    Targowica confederates were Polish magnates who “betrayed” Poland in favor of their traditonal liberties by siding with the Tsar against the nascent Polish nationalists who were trying to transform their state into a more modern centralized one at the expense of the magnates. They were no kind of Russian nationalists.

    Politics is a cruel bitch, good sir. An anti-Polish rebellion at the time had a practical pro-Russian outcome, in the same way that the Euromaidan, which was anti-Russian, had a practical pro-American outcome.

    On the country’s fringe, and largely composed of ethnic Russians (Donetsk had more ethnic Russians than Ukrainans in it).

    This statement means nothing to me, as I do not distinguish between East Ukrainians and West Ukrainians in the same manner as you, nor do I distinguish between Russians and Ukrainians in the same manner as you.

    • Replies: @AP
    , @Mr. Hack
  132. AP says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    This doesn’t actually contradict the other poll because it doesn’t include support for Yanukovich.

    So if 40% support Maidan, 25% support Yanukovich, 32% support neither, then indeed 40% for Maidan, 57% against Maidan. But conversely, its 25% for Yanukovich, 72% against Yanukovich. The poll that also looks at Yanukovich support is more accurately descriptive.

    For example one could write about the US elections that way. Turnout was 55%. So 45% supported neither candidate. Of those who did note , 51% voted for Obama. Without factoring in Romney, one can accurately write that only 28% of voters chose Obama and 72% did not. Does this mean he was the less popular choice? Of course not.

  133. Dmitry says:
    @AP

    His comment is correct, although not very original or interesting.

    Stalin was very incompetent and evil in many ways, and a great and successful leader in many other ways.

    You can say the same kind of mix of moral condemnation, and appreciation, as about Hadrian, Oliver Cromwell, Ivan Grozny, etc

    • Replies: @AP
  134. AP says:
    @Denis

    But the practical outcome of his works was to bring Ukrainians into the Russian fold

    That and wholesale destruction and slaughter of the Ukrainian population because his Tatar allies ran amok.

    Remember you wrote: “Russian patriotic movements, uprisings and individuals.”

    Neither he nor his movement could be characterized as such. He chose the Tsar as an ally last, and tried to turn against him soon afterward.

    Politics is a cruel bitch, good sir. An anti-Polish rebellion at the time had a practical pro-Russian outcome,

    Correct. However, those Polish magnates cannot be accurately described as “Russian patriotic movements, uprisings and individuals.” People whose behavior leads to an increase in Russian power are not necessarily Russian patriots nor their movement patriotic/Russian.

    Ultimately the Nazi self-destruction of Europe allowed Russia to become a superpower. That would not make the Nazis “Russian patriotic movements, uprisings and individuals.”

    So the only actual Russian nationalists in Ukraine were:

    1. Galician Russophiles, who were rather isolated from Russia and therefore for whom Russian nationalism was a sort of cargo cultism. They became of marginal popularity in the early 20th century.

    2. Little Russians. Ironically, proximity and exposure to Polish nationalism meant that Little Russianism became a mass “Russian” nationalist movement earlier than did Russian nationalism in Russia itself. The Little Russian idea was different from the modern Russian nationalist idea though: its proponents believed that Little Russians were equal and “older” brothers to the bigger Great Russians, they promoted the standardization of the Little Russian language and proposed teaching this rather than Great Russian on a mass scale. They hated Poles and Jews, promoted a cult of Khmelnytsky as unifier, and were loyal to the Tsar but when the Moscow government supported centralization and the Great Russian rather than the Little Russian language, the Little Russian movement converted to anti-Russian Ukrainian nationalism in the mid to late 19th century.

    When it mattered, during the Revolution, there were no significant pro-Russian figures from Ukraine, the Whites didn’t get any significant help from Ukrainians. The Galicians weren’t totally hostile and even briefly joined when their army was decimated from typhus and wanted medicine, but this didn’t amount to much.

    • Disagree: Mikhail
    • Replies: @Gerard2
    , @Denis
  135. AP says:
    @Dmitry

    Stalin was successful but did he do “many good things?”

  136. @AP

    It was a glorified blog post not having any of the “” criteria”” you set for I.K.

    • Replies: @AP
  137. Hail says: • Website
    @MEH 0910

    In 1998, he [Hunter Biden, b.1970] contacted William Oldaker, a Washington lawyer who had worked on his father’s Presidential campaign in 1987, for advice about how to get a job in the Clinton Administration. Oldaker called William Daley, the Commerce Secretary, [….]

    Hunter got the job, then sold the Delaware house for roughly twice what he’d paid for it and moved his family to a rental home in the Tenleytown neighborhood of Washington. Hunter and Kathleen sent Naomi and Finnegan—and later Maisy, who was born in 2000—to Sidwell Friends, one of Washington’s most exclusive and expensive schools. Hunter’s salary barely covered the rent, the school fees, and his family’s living expenses. “I’ve pretty much always lived paycheck to paycheck,” Hunter told me. “I never considered it struggling, but it has always been a high-wire act.”

    Living above means, major financial obligations, used to high-life lifestyle, lives life through political connections.

    As Twinkie wrote facetiously above,

    Hunter Biden doesn’t sound – at all – like a ripe target for recruitment by a foreign intelligence agency.

    • Replies: @AP
  138. Hail says: • Website

    Wives of Hunter Biden:

    Kathleen Buhle [born ca. 1969] (met Hunter Biden, 1992; married, 1993-2017; divorced Hunter Biden after he was exposed in the ‘Ashley Madison’ infidelity app scandal as a prolific user of that service, and after she found out Hunter Biden was also at times romantically involved with deceased brother’s widow after the latter died in May 2015) — Catholic origin

    Melissa Cohen [b. 1987] (from South Africa; origins unclear)

    Biden met activist Melissa Cohen in early May 2019. Within a month, they were married. […] [T]he New Yorker describes Cohen as a filmmaker, though there isn’t much evidence of her work. [From The Forward.]

    This guy appears to be a long, slow, trainwreck.

    But he is now “Cohen’ed up.”

    • Replies: @MEH 0910
  139. Mikhail says: • Website
    @Hail

    FWIW, the New York Times report suggests Hunter Biden’s monthly salary for this cushy position fluctuated, and that $50,000 was the maximum he ever received for his services in any given month.

    Is that a fact? Regardless, it’s understood (without much if any debate) that he had additional $ perks at that position, in addition to his lucrative China $ experiences.

  140. Mikhail says: • Website
    @Twinkie

    Hunter Biden doesn’t sound – at all – like a ripe target for recruitment by a foreign intelligence agency.

    More like a troubled son of a prominent politician, who got breaks that most others will never come close to getting.

  141. Mikhail says: • Website
    @Anatoly Karlin

    Lyttenburgh is some sovok piece of work, with his anti-Soviet is (by default) anti-Russian mantra.

    • Replies: @Gerard2
  142. Mikhail says: • Website

    Regarding Joe Biden’s claim that the prosecutor who he essentially got fired is corrupt:

    https://thehill.com/opinion/campaign/463307-solomon-these-once-secret-memos-cast-doubt-on-joe-bidens-ukraine-story

    • Replies: @Gerard2
  143. AP says:
    @Belarusian Anon

    Burden of proof was on I.K. to make a legit study to back up his claim. It can be dismissed by the work of prof. Marples in that format.

  144. AP says:
    @Hail

    Hunter seems to be a bit of a sociopath. Poor Biden family.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  145. Gerard2 says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    Gerard could you stop shitting all over this thread or I’ll just start flat out deleting all your posts without reading them.

    I know you like me, we’re like brothers….so why would you threaten to do such a thing?

    Ok, I will (against my human rights) lighten up on the insults of this “human”……but your position is that I am just supposed to bend down and take nonsense like that up the ass?

    No more calling him a “scumbag, , “idiot” etcetera

    To quote this AP “human”, and his “genius” writings like this:

    Polish , Ukrainian, then Russian words for time are chas, chas & vremya

    lololol………I didn’t even respond to that nonsense, in fact I only respond to a fraction of this “human”s abnormal number of posts……but why would you not comment on such an inept thing like that, which practically should eliminate him from ever commentating on a Russia/Ukraine blog again? Seriously why cover for something like that – practically exposes as a fantasy the thousands of comments from this guy about being in a metro, train station etcetera.
    …and that it just one topic of many.

    Anyway, I will be good from now on.

    • Replies: @AP
  146. Gerard2 says:
    @Mikhail

    Lyttenburgh is some sovok piece of work, with his anti-Soviet is (by default) anti-Russian mantra.

    I like Lyttenburgh – don’t often understand WTF he is on about, but he is OK

  147. Gerard2 says:
    @Mikhail

    You would like this. Considering the dumb , illogical comments about ” no free media’ in Russia, we have this example of the nationalist-opposition Oleg Kashin, debating with the liberal oppositionist rat Nikolai Svanidze, about central Asian immigration into Russia….on a Russian “state” newspaper/radio, Komsomolskaya Pravda.

    Some interesting points, particularly from Svanidze…. but both these idiots comeup with the same stupid “punchline”….that the increase in non-slav , anti immigration attitudes in Russia,…is merely a symptom that they are dissatified with the country in general! i.e pretty much reading into it whatever they want to.

  148. AP says:
    @Gerard2

    To quote this AP “human”, and his “genius” writings like this:

    Polish , Ukrainian, then Russian words for time are chas, chas & vremya

    Yes, those are the words for “time” in each respective language. “Chas” in both Polish and Ukrainian, but “vremya” in Russian.

    The words for “hour” are “godzina” in Polish and “hodina” in Ukrainian (in essence, the same), but “chas” in Russian.

    Slavic grammar is different than English – Slavs sometimes use “hour” when in English “time” is used (i.e., “What time is it” in English becomes becomes “What hour is it?” in the Slavic languages). But in this case Ukrainian words are the same as the Polish counterpart and not like Russian.

    I guess you don’t know Russian very well?

    • Replies: @Epigon
    , @Gerard2
  149. Epigon says:
    @AP

    How did you end up marrying a Russian lady?

    Genuinely interested.

    • Replies: @AP
  150. AP says:
    @Epigon

    University in the USA. It was a unique situation – I went to an unknown school that aggressively recruited post-Soviet elites right after the Iron curtain fell (their younger siblings would go to London or Switzerland a couple years later, but around 1991 they came to this place in the middle of the USA). So my wife’s dad worked for the ЦК КПСС (won’t name him), one of our classmates is now a senior official in one of the Muslim Republics, my best friend was from a similar Polish family, etc. It was an interesting group. Thank God there weren’t any Ukrainians, I was looking for a Ukrainian girl when I met my wife instead 🙂

    We had a lot of interesting discussions and friendly arguments over beers. There is some of that atmosphere here, which I miss, at Karlin’s blog.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    , @Anon 2
  151. Mr. Hack says:
    @Denis

    The bottom line is that the vast amount of Ukrainians, even though they’ve had a very long encounter with their neighbors to the north and to the west, feel that they’re a separate nation and therefore are entitled to their own state that operates for the benefit of their own rights, including cultural ones. Think of it in terms of these thoughts expressed today at Linh Dinh’s blog in his eye opening piece about Jack London:

    London insisted a worldwide class revolution was the answer. A century and several gory nightmares later, there are those who still cling to this faith, but only in the West. In the East, even the most ignorant know the survival of his identity and dignity is conterminous with his nation’s. Orwell understood this well. It is the biggest crime to wreck anyone’s heritage in a flash.

    https://www.unz.com/ldinh/jack-london/

  152. Mr. Hack says:
    @AP

    From all accounts, you’ve developed a wonderful family life including children, and have a deep respect for the Russian culture and Russia itself, yet…you’re an indefatigable supporter of all things Ukrainian, and a fiery orator for the Ukrainian cause…I guess, God does indeed have a sense of humor. 🙂 Ukraine needs more sons like you!

    • Replies: @Mikel
  153. @Denis

    He’s definitely a bit of an apologist for the Turks.

    However, his book The Russian Origins of the First World War was interesting. And I appreciate anyone who at least casually mentions Masonry as a possible factor in that period of history.

    I actually read McMeekin on a recommendation by Karlin himself.

  154. Gerard2 says:
    @AP

    “hodina” in Ukrainian (in essence, the same), but “chas” in Russian.

    HAHAHAHAHA! So you basically, again, make the point I was making – then pass it off as your own argument! You admit ” chas” is “hour” in Russian..i.e a period of time, or in a time, not to mention also meaning “watch/clock”……yet you would STILL write what you did comparing the 3 languages?

    “Hour” is precisely my point – or else why would I have written that ( and about metro, train stations-hint ) you dummy?!!

    ” Polish, ukrainian and Russian words for time are chas, chas, vremya”

    – when you are in the process of an argument, attempting to ridiculously separate the Russian language as entirely different from Ukrainian. If you “know” chas is “hour” ( obviously only after a search of wikipedia in the last hour) in Russian…..then why would you have even made that point of a clearly time related word?!!! It smells of BS

    I guess you don’t know Russian very well?

    But your response , if you “know” chas is a clearly time related word in Russian, used prolifigately like “Da” or “xarosho”…proves that you know my argument was more than merited. Also the most obvious case of projection..even by your standards

    Now I know the term ” hour” would suggest some sort of mathematical calculation, some sophistication, some precision, some astronomy, measurements – something a dialect of Russian only used by the equivalent of the cast of Deliverance in Ukraine at the time, would have zero ability or history in, except “coincidentally” when they are Russian or part of Russia!….same thing with “watch/clock” – again, scientific measures developed in conjunction with , for the use by strong navy/merchant ships/explorers – completely alien concepts for Khokhols except when they are Russian.
    Poland with its inept scientific, maritime and cultural achievements – you could also see why the precise update of “chas” also does not occur.

    But your attempt to BS away your lack of knowledge is worse than your “svet/mir” debacle

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    , @AP
    , @LatW
  155. Gerard2 says:
    @AP

    When it mattered, during the Revolution, there were no significant pro-Russian figures from Ukraine, the Whites didn’t get any significant help from Ukrainians. The Galicians weren’t totally hostile and even briefly joined when their army was decimated from typhus and wanted medicine, but this didn’t amount to much.

    Amusing projection – the pitiful Ukrainian People’s Republic was the only thing given up without any fight whatsoever , and was totally compliant and eager entrant into the USSR.

    “When it mattered, during the Revolution”

    ….LOL.in among the surrender in WW1 you dummy…….in which a highly patriotic mass of Ukrainians served in the army and were high ranking officers – most of them killed . When in the immediate aftermath of more than in proportion (with Russia) number of “Ukrainians ” had been killed serving or as civilians?

    2. Little Russians. Ironically, proximity and exposure to Polish nationalism meant that Little Russianism became a mass “Russian” nationalist movement earlier than did Russian nationalism in Russia itself. The Little Russian idea was different from the modern Russian nationalist idea though: its proponents believed that Little Russians were equal and “older” brothers to the bigger Great Russians, they promoted the standardization of the Little Russian language and proposed teaching this rather than Great Russian on a mass scale. They hated Poles and Jews, promoted a cult of Khmelnytsky as unifier, and were loyal to the Tsar but when the Moscow government supported centralization and the Great Russian rather than the Little Russian language, the Little Russian movement converted to anti-Russian Ukrainian nationalism in the mid to late 19th century.

    Anaemically fantasist, north American garbage. Where to start?

    Moving on, laughably, in how many centuries of Russian “occupation” not a single assassination attempt on a Tsar for the purposes of Ukrainian “nationalism”? several critical national industries mainly based in Ukraine
    Stalin at the time viewed ukrainian separatism as solely the work of Polish intelligence causing trouble – absolutely no serious organic ukrop separatist movement to be bothered about. Literally all the time his thoughts about Ukrainian instability are only because of Poles. Ironically, it was a pole he appointed to run Ukraine in the 30’s.

    Fully in proportion ( 10 out of 41) Ukrainian Marshall’s during the second world war,

    Considering the Nazi’s overran the Ukrainian SSR ( not finding anything Ukrainian in 2 years), the number of “Heroes of the Soviet Union” is more than in proportion to its place in the USSR to fully prove the great patriotism to Russian world of Ukrainians you dummy.

    • Replies: @Mikhail
  156. @AP

    Hunter is a pretty usual piece of shit. A typical scion of a powerful family who believes that no rule, legal or moral, applies to him. Then again, you can hardly blame him: in terms of being a piece of shit, like father, like son.

    • Agree: Bill Jones
    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    , @Beckow
  157. nymom says:

    It could be as someone noted the Democrats themselves doing this to Biden after seeing no other way of getting him to retire from the campaign. Biden an obvious embarrassment to them; actually an embarrassment to the US to have him running for President at all.

    So pretending to investigate impeaching Trump, knowing it will never happen, gains the Democrats themselves ‘street cred’ from their base; while at the same time discouraging Biden from continuing his campaign. This could be a win-win for them, however it turns out.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  158. @Gerard2

    In related languages the same root is often used in different ways, sometimes producing comical effects. Say, in Russian “отрава” (otrava) means poison, but in Ukrainian “страва” (strava) and in Czech “потравина” (potravina) means dish (of food). Or in Russian “почивать” (pochivat’) means to rest or sleep (a very highfalutin word, rarely used now), whereas in Croatian “pochivalishche” means rest area on the highway. There many examples of this.

    • Replies: @Haruto Rat
    , @Korenchkin
  159. @Mr. Hack

    That’s right, don’t get in the way. Ukraine will always mess itself up quite successfully, without your help.

  160. @nymom

    An interesting perspective. There is a flaw, though: all the other Dem front-runners are a huge embarrassment for their pathetic “party” and would be an embarrassment for the US.

  161. Mr. Hack says:
    @AnonFromTN

    Kinda reminds me of you…one who likes to piss all over his own, Ukrainian people. I ususally call you a janissar, but now I have something totally different to call you (or at least think of you as). BTW, we know that your mother was Ukrainian, but we’ve never been told the ethnicity of your father?…

    Like father, like son.

  162. @Mr. Hack

    Tribal people with primeval mentality are always fixated on ethnicity. Nothing new there, usual Hutu-Tutsi thing.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    , @AP
  163. AP says:
    @Gerard2

    Lol, so much desperate yelling because you got triggered because it was demonstrated that you don’t even know the difference between two related but discrete words- “time” and “hour.” For both of these words the Ukrainian and Polish languages use the same word and it is different than the Russian word.

    These are examples of how in terms of vocabulary (but not grammar and pronunciation) Ukrainian is closer to Polish than to Russian.

    • Replies: @Haruto Rat
  164. Mr. Hack says:
    @AnonFromTN

    And janissar people are worthless dogs always willing to lick the boots of their masters, in order to get some sort of renumeration. As such an expert on the bible, you should be able to remember Judas and his 30 peices of silver? A lot of good that did him, and we know how he ended up. 🙁

    Must have had a bad relationship with your father?…

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  165. God might have a sense of humor, but the American elites don’t. They keep undermining the institutions that give them power, and keep making ridiculously silly claims. Just recently Nancy Pelosi “discovered” Russian hand in Trump-Ze “scandal” Dems artificially conjured up out thin air. They are dumb and hope that sheeple have an IQ below 80. To their dismay, they will discover that hoi polloi is smarter than they think.

  166. AP says:
    @AnonFromTN

    Also Japanese thing, until the last half of the 20th century French, English, German thing, Baltic thing, etc. And don’t pretend that there aren’t plenty of nationalists in Russia.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  167. @Mr. Hack

    you should be able to remember Judas and his 30 pieces of silver? A lot of good that did him, and we know how he ended up

    Pretty much how current Ukrainian traitors posing as the “government” will end up for 30 pieces of silver from the Empire.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  168. @AP

    Shouldn’t we also remember where this Hutu-Tutsi mentality lead Germany and Japan in WWII?

    • Replies: @AP
  169. AP says:
    @AnonFromTN

    Sure. This is why after communism and modern Western self-destruction, nationalism is the worst.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  170. Mr. Hack says:
    @AnonFromTN

    Well, they tried serving your master for close to 400 years, and have decided to look elsewhere for “brotherly” love. If it weren’t for your master’s doing, Donbas would not be a warzone today, and you’d still be living your happy little sovok life there.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  171. LatW says:
    @Gerard2

    “Watch” is chasy in Russian, not chas. “Vazhki chasy” means “hard times” in Ukrainian, not a “heavy watch”. Although you can see very close relation there.

    • Replies: @AP
    , @Gerad1234
  172. @Mr. Hack

    You are better off being a Christian. Then this applies to you: “Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven” (Matthew 5:3).

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  173. @AnonFromTN

    “Pozor!” is “attention!” in Czech but “shame!” in Russian.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    , @LatW
  174. @AP

    When Romans came up with the concept of “hour”, it meant a point in time – e.g. prima hora est. Only later it came to mean a period of time.

    It’s not surprising that in languages that retained closer contact with Rome or Constantinople it’s still OK to ask “what hour is it?” (not only Slavic but also most Romance languages, e.g. French quelle heure est-il?).

    Although perhaps no native English speaker would say “what hour”, it at least can be understood. It’s worse when you meet a native speaker of Latvian who asks “How much [is the] watch?”. 🙂

  175. @AnonFromTN

    “Churka”, which is a Russian derogatory term for Central Asians , means “turkey” (the bird) in Serbian

    • Replies: @LatW
  176. @Haruto Rat

    What’s more, in Serbian “позориште” (pozorishte) means theater. Interestingly, this is one of relatively few words that are different between Serbian and Croatian: in Croatian theater is “kàzalīšte” (same root as Russian verb “показывать” (pokazyvat’), which means to show).

  177. Mr. Hack says:
    @AnonFromTN

    Actually, Christ came to save and redeem the whole world, you, me and everybody. I hope you learn to soften your hardened heart before the end:

    Jesus Came to Save the World
    44 And Jesus cried out and said, “Whoever believes in me, believes not in me but in him who sent me. 45 And whoever sees me sees him who sent me. 46 I have come into the world as light, so that whoever believes in me may not remain in darkness. 47 If anyone hears my words and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world. 48 The one who rejects me and does not receive my words has a judge; the word that I have spoken will judge him on the last day. 49 For I have not spoken on my own authority, but the Father who sent me has himself given me a commandment—what to say and what to speak. 50 And I know that his commandment is eternal life. What I say, therefore, I say as the Father has told me.”

    Get out of the darkness AnnonFrom TN!

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    , @Seraphim
  178. @Mr. Hack

    Tell you what, the story of God who sacrificed his own son to himself to redeem the world is among the most twisted and nonsensical ones in all religions. So, thanks, but no, thanks.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  179. Mr. Hack says:
    @AnonFromTN

    The one who rejects me and does not receive my words has a judge; the word that I have spoken will judge him on the last day

    Good Luck!

  180. Mikhail says: • Website
    @Gerard2

    That stuff he rehashes about the Russian Civil War is factually off from reality – points previously detailed, with him not providing a valid counter.

  181. AP says:
    @LatW

    Lol, of course he didn’t even know the word for watch in Russian.

    • Replies: @Gerad1234
  182. @AP

    I can’t believe I hear this from a Ukie! Then how about “Hang a moskal”, “Stab a Jew”, “Ukraine above all”, and the rest of crap Ukie storm troopers spew? According to them, Russians, Poles, and Jews should be killed for being Russians, Poles, and Jews.

    • Replies: @AP
  183. AP says:
    @AnonFromTN

    I don’t support hanging Jews or Russians and your implication that Ukraine is riddled with such sentiments is ridiculous given that Ukrainians voted in a Jew as their president.

    But we know that you believe all sorts of nonsense about Ukraine.

    • Agree: Mr. Hack
    • Replies: @Seraphim
  184. @Korenchkin

    While allowing additional Muslims to settle in Russia by the millions from Central Asia. Not sure about those priorities.

    • Replies: @Korenchkin
  185. @AnonFromTN

    You may be right. Weren’t regular people prohibited from reading the Bible for centuries?

    Most professed Christians, even many churchgoing ones, are unaware of the vicious and deviant nonsense in parts of that tome.

    On the other hand, what beautiful, insightful, and practical advice can be found in the books of Psalms and Proverbs in the OT and some of jesus’s more sensible and less bizarre statements in the NT.

  186. Dmitry says:

    Trump met with Zelensky yesterday.

    In the press conference, Trump seems to reject visiting Ukraine, and also he is not interested about talking about Crimea.

    Overall, my impression, is that Trump does not care at all about Ukraine and views it as an annoying country. (Alternatively he is just generally annoyed by the impeachment scandal related to the phone call with Zelensky).

    In more serious Ukrainian news, last week, Zelensky met famous Hollywood actors.

    Ashton Kutcher and Mila Kunis visited Kiev and take part in YES Ukraine conference (which usually has people like Tony Blair and Presidents of Baltic states there).

    They had dinner in a restaurant in Kiev with Zelensky, They discussed the investment climate in Ukraine, as well as the development of its economy.

    Ashton Kutcher had listened carefully to the Ukrainian President. According to the Ukrainian government, Ashton Kutcher said “I think that with the new president, Ukraine is in good hands”. (Well if someone so famous as Ashton Kutcher says it, it must be so).

    • Replies: @Korenchkin
  187. LatW says:
    @Korenchkin

    It might be that it came from Turk or Circassian.

  188. LatW says:
    @Haruto Rat

    Yea, but there’s dozor in Russian – surveillance, watch, attention. It’s all connected to gaze (zor, zrenye), theater, too (obozrevatel’ – viewer). Shame, too, as in bad optics.

    • Agree: Haruto Rat
  189. @Dmitry

    Well if someone so famous as Ashton Kutcher says it

    Of course he said it, his wife is a Ukranian Jew

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  190. @RadicalCenter

    Didn’t Karlin himself debunk this

  191. @Mr. Hack

    AK: I think we’ve all heard your opinion about AnonFromTN by now. I just gave Gerard a temp ban, hopefully there won’t be a need to dole out more.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    , @Gerad1234
  192. Mr. Hack says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    Why single me out? How about his opinions? How about AP’s back and forth with him? I’ve not used any profanities with him? In the end, you know I always acquiesce to your opinion in these matters, but really, what exactly have I done wrong here?

    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
  193. @Mr. Hack

    You are doing personal attacks that neither AnonFromTN nor AP does (at least unprovoked).

    Also this:

    BTW, we know that your mother was Ukrainian, but we’ve never been told the ethnicity of your father?…

    Is a complete no-no.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  194. @Mr. Hack

    The people had had it with corruption and had enough of gold trimmed toilets and private zoos filled with exotic animals.

    When one’s country is saddled with a lousy President, there is a remedy for this.
    It’s an ultra-esoteric practice known as “an election“.

    • Replies: @AP
  195. Seraphim says:
    @AP

    The trouble is when Ukrainians themselves believe all sorts of nonsense about Ukraine.

  196. Mr. Hack says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    AnonFromTN::

    comment #162: “Hunter is a pretty usual piece of shit… in terms of being a piece of shit, like father, like son.

    comment#169: “Tribal people with primeval mentality are always fixated on ethnicity. Nothing new there, usual Hutu-Tutsi thing.”

    comment #189: “Then how about “Hang a moskal”, “Stab a Jew”, “Ukraine above all”, and the rest of crap Ukie storm troopers spew? According to them, Russians, Poles, and Jews should be killed for being Russians, Poles, and Jews.”

    Nothing provovative here, eh? Seems kind of one sided, if you ask me. And in a blog that often discusses ethnic issues, why is it a “complete no no” to discuess the ethnicity of somebody? I’m not trying to dox the guy or his father, just trying to put his milieu into perspective. Heck, you’ve pretty much come out with your whole DNA profile here. He’s previosusly admitted that his mother is Ukrainian. I’ve admitted 3/4 Ukrainian lineage, 1/4 Polish. What’s up here?

    (don’t worry, I’ll try to lower the temperature a few degrees).

    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
  197. Dmitry says:
    @Korenchkin

    I could be confusing her, with another actress.

    But I have a memory Mila Kunis had said she was Russian, not Ukrainian. She also promoted Russia, and never said anything about Ukraine.

    I remember about 5 years ago, Ukrainian netizens were angry about this and cursing her on YouTube.

    Obviously, now Ashton Kutcher and her might be changing to be on the Ukrainian side.

    Ashton Kutcher is a large venture capitalist. Most of his investments look a bit boring though. And nothing is invested in Ukrainian startups.

    Here are his current investments
    https://index.co/company/sound-ventures/portfolio

    And this was his previous fund:
    https://index.co/company/a-grade-investments/investments

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  198. @Mr. Hack

    Last I checked Hunter Biden isn’t a commenter on this blog. The other two are only personal attacks if you choose to interpret them that way.

  199. Dmitry says:
    @blatnoi

    I have a friend, from Odessa, that is in Kiev, and his views (to extent he was interested in politics), are very pro-Russia, and against the coup there.

    However, about 6 months ago, I was curious to read for a few minutes his friends list, and friends of friends, and friends of friends of friends, to see what kind of pool of employees are working in startups in Kiev.

    And my impression was to be surprised by how common there is a mix of people who had EU posts, and different kinds of liberal politics, etc, mixed with Ukrainian nationalism.

    Relative to their low economic level of the country overall, there are surprisingly strange political mix in Kiev at the moment.

    From what I posted here a few months ago, “the most peak young Kiev startup employees”.

    E.g.
    Jewish software engineer that is a refugee from Donetsk. And yet, after refugeed to Kiev, hobbies include organizing the women’s march, writing signs in Ukrainian, which is strange considering when your city and people were bombed by Kiev.

    ^ Something funny reading about this the feminist march in Kiev, is that the main overall reason the feminists were marching was because they want prostitution to be criminalized in Ukraine.

    But the nationalist and religious counter-demonstration against the women’s march, was much larger than the women’s march (although they both side should want the same anti-prostitution policy).

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    , @blatnoi
  200. Dmitry says:
    @Dmitry

    nationalist and religious counter-demonstration against the women’s march, was much larger than the women’s march (although they both side should want the same anti-prostitution policy).

    Really, imagine if aliens visited, and what would think of the embarrassingly low level of human logic, if they had to see these morons which go to such protests.

    • Replies: @AP
  201. AP says:
    @Kevin O'Keeffe

    That’s in a state that isn’t moving towards and Asian-style despotism like Ukraine was before the would-be despot was removed from power. He was ultimately replaced by a guy who ran a free election and left power after he lost.

  202. AP says:
    @Dmitry

    Bardon posted much, much more stupid than those protests:

  203. @AP

    As Einstein was reported to say, “only two things are infinite, human stupidity and the Universe, and I am not sure about the Universe”.

  204. Mikel says:
    @Mr. Hack

    you’re an indefatigable supporter of all things Ukrainian, and a fiery orator for the Ukrainian cause…Ukraine needs more sons like you!

    I think that he should spend more time with his wife, children and friends. Engaging daily in the same old tired arguments with the the same people and obsessively making sure that he always has the last word in every little debate while regularly losing his temper and throwing insults to his opponents cannot be very healthy.

    I’m not sure that Ukraine is much better off with such supporters. At most, he manages to influence the opinions of a few netizens (and not necessarily in a positive way for Ukraine).

    • Agree: Mikhail
    • Replies: @AP
    , @Mr. Hack
  205. Mikel says:
    @AnonFromTN

    Bottom line is, there are too many gods to take them seriously.

    Tell you what, the story of God who sacrificed his own son to himself to redeem the world is among the most twisted and nonsensical ones in all religions.

    I sometimes disagree with your views but you put it very nicely in those two remarks. I actually wish I was so naive to be able to believe in such fantasies. I guess my existence would be much more simple.

  206. Mikhail says: • Website

    This Jim Dore-Aaron Mate exchange on Biden-Trump should be excellent:

    Some of the comments are mint.

  207. @AnonFromTN

    This take belongs on some 13 yearolds YouTube playlist titled: Epic INTELLECTUAL takes down IGNORANT Christard

    • Agree: AP
  208. Anon 2 says:
    @AP

    In the 1990s American universities were flooded with ex-Soviet students.
    I remember how a couple of Russian girls, working part time on campus
    during summer, came to clean my office, and practically the first thing
    they asked me was, “Are you married?” even though I was 20-25 years
    older than they were.
    These days we get virtually no students from Russia or Ukraine.

    • Replies: @AP
  209. blatnoi says:
    @AP

    “And coincidentally they are from the country’s eastern regions.”

    This last statement undermines a lot of your intention with your answer. You see these people as different and not fully Ukrainian. Why are you surprised that they consider what happened a coup, which it most certainly was, and are mad that their president who they voted for, was removed by force? The size of the civil war would have been much greater if those in the East were not afraid that the West would be supported by Europe and the US, which it certainly is, but their fears were overblown as the support is lackluster.

    If you think that these views and love for Russian culture will disappear so easily, then you will be very disappointed with your plans for a prosperous, or just a functional, Ukrainian entity. They don’t consider themselves a true part of the patriotic Ukraine, and you and I suspect many in the West don’t consider them either. Do they just want the free land without its inhabitants? They are either hoping that they will all die out, or their culture will change with enough propaganda? Both pretty big fallacies since bad demographics does not mean new right-thinking patriots will move in there, and the fact that Russian culture and resentment for being forced to learn Ukrainian can be transmitted a lot easier in the internet age. I suspect the country will eventually split up, and thereby cause much less grief for all its citizens.

    • Agree: Denis
    • Replies: @AP
  210. blatnoi says:
    @Dmitry

    Looks like an uninformed public that can be easily shaped into crowds for various purposes. Would be a disaster in a corrupt country with a media beholden to whims of some oligarchs. Good thing…. oh wait…

  211. AP says:
    @Anon 2

    After the beginning of the 1990s “lower class” students started coming in, in larger numbers. There was a a bit of a culture class between the initial arrivals and those who came even 1-2 years later (latter were seen as more crass, poorer, criminal elements, etc.).

  212. AP says:
    @blatnoi

    This last statement undermines a lot of your intention with your answer. You see these people as different and not fully Ukrainian.

    Not quite, but there is an element of truth to that.

    I was pointing out that you are getting a distorted picture of the country. If, say, someone in Germany only met Americans from the New York bubble who left America in part because they hate what it became, he would have the fake idea that Americans hated Trump and that he was some sort of fascist dictator. Your Kharkiv friends are like that.

    Why are you surprised that they consider what happened a coup

    There are some people who think Trump came to power through a coup and was installed by the Russians. So?

    Coup in English is the violent seizure of power, implicitly by a small group, such as the military. Maidan was a mass uprising by the western and central parts of the country. The Russian Revolution was more of a “coup” than was Maidan, it had fewer supporters. American Revolution may have been more of a “coup.”

    Your use of “coup” is typical leftist games with language, I guess this habit has spread beyond the Left.

    They don’t consider themselves a true part of the patriotic Ukraine,

    That’s why they left. Good riddance to them. A lot of such people have left.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    , @Mikhail
  213. AP says:
    @Mikel

    I think that he should spend more time with his wife, children and friends

    I’m usually on here at night when people are asleep or in the AM when they are busy. I probably spend less time on here than others do on activities such as videogames.

    losing his temper and throwing insults to his opponents

    When you lie I call you a liar. It’s descriptive. And even then I wait until I see a pattern, I assume the best, that the person is merely mistaken.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    , @Mikel
  214. @AP

    In most cases insomnia is a treatable disorder.

    • Replies: @AP
  215. @AP

    Good riddance to them.

    So, why does the regime fight the war in Donbass and keeps talking about the return of Crimea? As neither region would ever return to Ukraine, you appear to be more realistic than the regime in Kiev.

    • Replies: @AP
  216. @AP

    Those signs are surprisingly heterosexual

    • LOL: Anatoly Karlin
  217. Mr. Hack says:
    @Mikel

    Give the guy some credit. He can do it all and still maintains an exemplary home life and probably works 50+ hours as a medical professional too. He’s the bane of all of the Averkos and Anons out there and yet he never gets threatened with a ban. How does he do it? 🙂

    • Replies: @AP
  218. AP says:
    @AnonFromTN

    I’m a night owl and my job starts later so I have no need to go to bed before midnight.

  219. AP says:
    @Mr. Hack

    Actually I’m able to swing a light workload because hourly pay is good enough for that…

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  220. AP says:
    @AnonFromTN

    So, why does the regime fight the war in Donbass

    As some people from Dnipropetrovsk told me – we have to fight there so that crap doesn’t spread here.* Ukriane did nothing in Crimea, so there were problems in Donbas. If Ukraine had done nothing in Donbas, there wouuld be trouble in Kharkiv, Dnipropetrovsk, etc. Before the rebels were stopped in Donbas they were making claimns upon all of so-called “New Rusisa” and even claiming they would march to Kiev. While I oppose taking back Donbas, keeping the front is absolutely necessary.

    and keeps talking about the return of Crimea

    Because, unfortunately, a lot of the Ukrainian public want Crimea back and Ukrainian politicians has to cater to their voters. Just as the USA would be better off without the Mexicanized parts of California yet most Americans would object to such territorial adjustments. Russia did Ukriane a favor by removing Crimea and Donbas.

    The Ukrainian voters who want Crimea back are wrong but their point is not an absurd one. Seizing Crimea clearly violated international laws and it also involved theft of Ukrainian state resources (such as seizure of gas wells in the Black Sea that the Ukrainian government had poured money into developing) as well as theft of property in Crimea that was owned by Ukrainians. Presumably, in a few years or decades decades when this is all resolved, there would be some compensation.

    *They had voted for Yanukovich, were not pro-Maidan, but support the war in Donbas and oppose any sort of deal that would give those seperatists autonomy. They also said that Russia stabbed Ukraine in the back when it seized Crimea.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  221. MEH 0910 says:
    @Hail

    This guy appears to be a long, slow, trainwreck.

  222. @AP

    Interesting. So, you say that a sizable fraction of the population in Kharkov, Dnepropetrovsk, and some other parts is not as “svidomy” as Kiev regime would like, and there was imminent danger of spreading Donbass movement there? Thing is, what goes around comes around, and these chickens will come home to roost yet.

    Ukraine had a chance to be a normal federalized country, like Switzerland or Germany, which would have matched its heterogeneity. But its leaders (all of them, not just Porky or Ze) blew this chance, using primeval nationalism as a fig leaf to cover their and other oligarchs’ thievery. As the result, we have what we have. And this is not the end of the story.

    BTW, the great majority of Crimeans are glad to have escaped the madhouse. If Ukraine did not illegally cancel Crimean autonomy long before 2014, things might have been different. But history does not have a subjunctive mood.

    • Replies: @AP
  223. @AP

    I’m a night owl and my job starts later so I have no need to go to bed before midnight

    Very unusual. There is a joke that if you say “see you at seven”, an MD assumes that it means 7 am, whereas a PhD assumes that it’s 7 pm.

    • Replies: @AP
  224. AP says:
    @AnonFromTN

    Interesting. So, you say that a sizable fraction of the population in Kharkov, Dnepropetrovsk, and some other parts is not as “svidomy” as Kiev regime would like, and there was imminent danger of spreading Donbass movement there?

    No. I’m saying that the people on Dnipropetrovsk would rather be fighting Donbas rebels in Donbas than Donbas rebels (and Russian adventurers like Strelkov or Motorola) in their own streets.

    In early 2014 Ukraine had basically no army and rebels could take whatever places where they had a lot of genuine local popularity. This turned out to be only urban parts of Donbas.

    Ukraine had a chance to be a normal federalized country, like Switzerland or Germany, which would have matched its heterogeneity

    The problem is that parts of Germany weren’t pushing Germany to economic union with Russia and other parts with the EU. An evenly divided Ukraine was inherently unstable and condemned to being a no-man’s land. This was good deal for local crooks and was reflected in how Ukraine got a lot poorer than its neighbors who integrated with Russia (Belarus) and the West (Poland and Romania).

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  225. @AP

    This was good deal for local crooks and was reflected in how Ukraine got a lot poorer than its neighbors who integrated with Russia (Belarus) and the West (Poland and Romania).

    Are you saying that impoverishment of Ukraine (as compared to any neighboring country) has nothing to do with local corruption? BTW, corruption in Ukraine flourished since 1991 and was not dented by either Maidan (2004 and 2013-14). Every Ukrainian president promised to fight corruption, while busily stuffing his own pockets. This “tradition” was not broken by either Maidan. Scientifically speaking, this suggests that Maidans or geopolitical orientation of Ukraine do not affect corruption, while something that remained constant since 1991 is the cause.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    , @AP
  226. AP says:
    @AnonFromTN

    I work just over 30 hours per week (minimum to get benefits) at a hospital where I am a consultant and basically have my own hours, it’s useful to be present for both 1st and 2nd shifts. I also moonlight at a private office a few hours a week. I don’t wanna doxx myself and will just say I am Doctoral level guy, whether MD, DO, PharmD, PHD I won’t specify.

  227. @AnonFromTN

    BTW, what’s your take on Volker resignation (https://www.statepress.com/article/2019/09/sppolitics-mccain-head-steps-down; or https://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2019/09/27/Ukraine-envoy-Kurt-Volker-resigns-amid-Trump-controversy/8541569627903/) and the publication of former Ukrainian Attorney General Shokin testimony (https://www1.cbn.com/cbnnews/politics/2019/september/sworn-testimony-ukrainian-prosecutor-fired-because-he-made-biden-unhappy-dems-steamroll-ahead-to-impeach-trump)? Corrupt through and through Porky is upset. I have no doubt that Shokin is as corrupt as Porky or Lutsenko, who Porky replaced Shokin with, or Biden, whose actions and Ukrainian company Burisma, that put Biden’s son Hunter on the board and paid ridiculous money to him, were investigated by Shokin.

    As an outside observer, I enjoy the spectacle of venomous snakes fighting each other, but I wonder what self-proclaimed pro-Ukrainian observer makes of these developments.

    • Replies: @AP
  228. AP says:
    @AnonFromTN

    Are you saying that impoverishment of Ukraine (as compared to any neighboring country) has nothing to do with local corruption?

    I wrote: “This was good deal for local crooks and was reflected in how Ukraine got a lot poorer than its neighbors who integrated with Russia (Belarus) and the West (Poland and Romania)..”

    Of Ukraine’s neighbors:

    Romania and Poland joined the EU.
    Belarus joined Russia’s Eurasian customs union.
    Moldova, like Ukraine, joined no one.

    Being beholden to no one helped Ukraine’s comprador Sovok elite avoid accountability.

    So the ones who joined the West did the best. The one who joined Russia did second-best. The ones who joined neither but stewed in their own corruption did the worst.

    Only in 2015 did Ukraine commit to joining a side, and signed the Association agreement with the EU. It started going into force in 2017. Since that time Ukraine has had solid and consistent economic growth. The parts of Ukraine under Kiev are better off now than they were in 2013 and ongoing improvement is certain at least for the next 2 years. Ukraine had kept falling further and further behind Russia, every year, from 1991 until 2015. In 2018 it’s back to where it had been vis a vis Russia in 2011, erasing the loses post-Maidan and the losses under the Yanukovich regime.

    Scientifically speaking, this suggests that Maidans or geopolitical orientation of Ukraine do not affect corruption,

    Romania has been pretty corrupt. Yet it has done much better than Ukraine.

  229. Mr. Hack says:
    @AP

    Romania has been pretty corrupt. Yet it has done much better than Ukraine.

    So, it looks like you “can have your cake (corruption) and eat it too (higher GDP)”?

    • Replies: @AP
  230. AP says:
    @Mr. Hack

    Corruption limits growth and unfairly makes life worse for people without connections, but a country can grow and be corrupt. Ukraine ‘s economy has been growing despite ongoing corruption. China is fairly corrupt, despite the Chinese executing people for corruption regularly.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  231. Mr. Hack says:
    @AP

    It seems that Ukraine’s long term prospects (perhaps actually sooner than later) of becoming a full fledged member of the EU is quite probable. The question becomes, is this really in Ukraine’s best interests, seeing that the globo-homo agenda of the EU does not ever seem to really quite abate, notwithstanding the current stances within some EU curent member countries (Poland, Hungary & Romania) in the east that are more culturally conservative? I think that the center is confident that over time even these countries will cave, and embrace a more liberal stance toward these issues. Also at stake is the center’s suicidal stance on immigration that seems inimical to the interests of all of these east European countries (including Ukraine).

    • Replies: @Epigon
    , @Korenchkin
    , @AP
  232. Epigon says:

    Russian Neo-Nazis going to a Jewish PM, Jewish comedian President de facto Oligarchy to get citizenship, fight alongside Ukrainian nationalists and Western Neo-Nazis, sponsored and supported by Atlanticist/Globohomo Western countries.

    Jews, Georgians, Armenians, Lithuanians, Estonians, Americans hold prominent posts during this “Ukrainian” nationalist revolution. Ukrainians hold military posts, suffer casualties.

    On the religious front, a Patriarch of a 1000-strong congregation on US/CIA payroll subjugates a motley assortment of Uniats, schismatics, failed Russian Orthodox priests’ believers by tricking them into thinking they will be evelated to Patriarchate rank.

    And you’re telling me you see a bright, prosperous future for this country?

    Even if none of the above mentioned was an issue, Ukraine is a question of life and death for Russians. They will never give up on it, because they would be severing their historical roots in addition to existentially threatening their survival.

    As soon as Ukraine’s fake friends and allies are unable to utilise the useful anti-Russia idiots and bankroll Anti-Russia(TM) Russians will descend upon it.

    It is the same mistake Poles do and retarded Karađorđević’s did – relying on distant allies while radically antagonizing immediate, much more powerful neighbors (Central Powers/AH, Axis).

    I may be delusional, biased, uninformed – but I simply don’t see any bright future for a country that has to toe Globohomo AND ultranationalist lines at the same time (many WW2 “personas” get monuments, streets, rehabilitation, commemoration – hooligans, ultras are courted), while refusing to solve Maidan and post-Maidan murders, instituting censorship on Russian arts and media and pretending to be pro-democracy, pro-liberty.
    Russian Federation has grabbed Ukraine by the pussy and will exploit urapatriotard tendencies in Ukraine – Minsk Agreement was signed and dictates terms which are a hard sell to the populace.
    Crimea is gone forever, another tough sell.

    Who would invest in a country embroiled in a frozen conflict where bellicose rhetorics are a necessity to survive on political scene? Russia can simply escalate, turn the conflict hot and destabilise Ukraine at its will. Once NS II and Turk Stream Bulgaria-Serbia-Hungary link are finished, another leverage and source of income will be gone.

    I asked AP about his marriage because it seems that Russians and Ukrainians of similar class, similar background and/or similar ideologies have more in common between themselves than compared to their compatriots. An interesting question – who is closer to Russian Black Hundreds – Banderists or Sovoks?

    • Replies: @Mikhail
    , @AP
  233. Epigon says:
    @Mr. Hack

    It seems that Ukraine’s long term prospects (perhaps actually sooner than later) of becoming a full fledged member of the EU is quite probable.

    0.

    Exactly 0.

    Serbia is miles ahead of Ukraine. Surrounded by NATO and EU members. Has had “special” customs/trade regime with EU since 2008 (Stabilization and accession agreement, Interim Agreement signed – we were such a colony that Serbia unilaterally removed customs on EU imports while EU didn’t, the Netherlands blocked – Serbian import was 2+ x export at the time).

    Serbia is not in NATO, won’t recognise Kosovo = will never become a EU member, and EU will never explicitly admit that these are the pre-requisites.

    Common people in rich EU countries are sick of subsidising poor members, suffering labour market competition and immigration – they don’t see or they don’t care for geopolitics of admiting Romania, Bulgaria or investing 100 billion € EU funds in Poland to create a bulwark against Russian Federation – but they fund it and suffer due to it.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    , @Mr. Hack
  234. Mikhail says: • Website
    @AP

    Coup in English is the violent seizure of power, implicitly by a small group, such as the military. Maidan was a mass uprising by the western and central parts of the country.

    In line with your previously repeated false understanding of the word “collaborate”.

    There’s more than one definition of coup.

    https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/coup

    https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/coup

    Regardless, the Euromaidan overthrow of Yanukovych had definite violent elements, thereby further making that act a coup.

  235. Mikhail says: • Website
    @Epigon

    An interesting question – who is closer to Russian Black Hundreds – Banderists or Sovoks?

    Not such an easy question.

    Not known for being on the political left, the Black Hundreds were for a strong Russia, including what’s now called Ukraine, while exhibiting violent and intolerant tendencies towards some groups, notably Jews.

    Sovoks don’t fit that category. Some Sovoks can be categorized as having anti-Russian traits.

    Banderites are anti-Russian and anti-Communist, along with a violent past that includes Jewish unfriendly facets.

  236. Dmitry says:
    @AP

    ^ They look like healthy university girls, that hijacked a climate protest for self-attention.

    It’s not exactly the idiocy of when nationalists tried to stop the Victory Day concert on the Inter channel to be played in Ukraine, by covering their building with stickers implying it has lack of patriotism.

  237. @AP

    Sorry for the confusion, #235 was supposed to be addressed to you.

  238. @Mr. Hack

    perhaps actually sooner than later

    Just as The Faker predicts the imminent collapse of Ukraine, you are now suggesting something just as silly
    The deck is stacked against you in this case, especially with Macron larping as De Gaulle now

  239. @Epigon

    You are missing important differences. Serbia does not fit globohomo ideals because it demonstrates dignity and self-respect. That is why it refuses to recognize Kosovo and maintains good relations with Russia (which is currently globohomos’ bête noir). Today’s Ukraine has nothing to fear in this department: it has totally dispensed with both, ready to lick any boot graciously offered by the masters.

    Ukraine won’t be accepted by NATO because it has unsettled border disputes – it still pretends to believe that Crimea and Donbass will return. It won’t join the EU because of its poverty (EU in its infinite stupidity has already accepted several dirt-poor countries), zero probability of it repaying its debts (EU already has Greece and Italy with the same problem), and scary (for timid Europeans) lawlessness, with many bandits armed to the teeth.

    • Replies: @AP
    , @Korenchkin
  240. Dreadilk says:
    @AP

    Nice fantasy.

    • Replies: @AP
    , @AP
  241. AP says:
    @AnonFromTN

    Nothing surprising. A lot of corruption. This debacle will help Elizabeth Warren, I suppose. Zelensky comes out looking the least-bad here.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  242. AP says:
    @Epigon

    Jews, Georgians, Armenians, Lithuanians, Estonians, Americans hold prominent posts during this “Ukrainian” nationalist revolution.

    “Americans” have been diaspora Ukrainians.

    On the religious front, a Patriarch of a 1000-strong congregation on US/CIA payroll subjugates a motley assortment of Uniats, schismatics, failed Russian Orthodox priests’ believers

    UOC has 7,000 parishes, more than the Serbian and Bulgarian Churches combined. While the Moscow Church in Ukraine has 12,000 parishes these are often show parishes; OCU has many more believers.

    And you’re telling me you see a bright, prosperous future for this country?

    It is already brighter than it has been for several years. My aunt recently returned from Ukraine: our relatives in central Ukraine say that for the first time since the USSR collapsed they feel comfortable and secure. They went on holiday to Turkey. This is nothing for Russians but something new for that part of Ukraine.

    Even if none of the above mentioned was an issue, Ukraine is a question of life and death for Russians.

    Most Russians aren’t eager to take over and subsidize Ukraine.

    They will never give up on it

    Bad for both, then. Western and central Ukrainians want as much to be part of Russia as Croatia would like to be part of Yugoslavia.

    It is the same mistake Poles do and retarded Karađorđević’s did – relying on distant allies while radically antagonizing immediate, much more powerful neighbors (Central Powers/AH, Axis)

    Ukraine has an ally next door in Poland.

    I may be delusional, biased, uninformed – but I simply don’t see any bright future for a country that has to toe Globohomo AND ultranationalist lines at the same time

    Didn’t Croatia do the same?

  243. Mikel says:
    @AP

    When you lie I call you a liar. It’s descriptive. And even then I wait until I see a pattern, I assume the best, that the person is merely mistaken.

    It is actually you who is lying through your teeth with that statement 🙂 You called me a liar because you didn’t like what I said about the Lugansk massacre and you remembered that I had told you in a previous occasion that in my culture being called a liar is rather offensive.

    You are more transparent than you seem to think. Your childish insistence in calling me “liar” for several days when that accusation just didn’t follow from the conversation we were having (I could theoretically be wrong but it was plain silly to say that I was “lying”) showed very clearly what your intention was.

    And in fact, I wasn’t thinking about that incident when I said that you are adept at throwing insults to your opponents. I was thinking about the same pattern of behavior I have seen you display in the past weeks when you, without any provocation, attack people accusing them of not being real Slavs (based on a wrong understanding of what Y haplogroups are, btw) or for not having children without having any idea of their personal circumstances.

    In any case, we are all aware that insulting and attacking people online has become a sad pastime for many people nowadays. I guess it serves as a venting mechanism for certain frustrations. So don’t worry, I do have a busy life and I’ll let you have the last word on this matter as well.

    My suggestion about your personal life was intended to be just good advice. Take it whichever way you want.

    • Replies: @AP
  244. AP says:
    @Dreadilk

    Everything I write is supported by facts. You live on fantasy.

    Here are economic figures for these countries:

    https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.PP.CD?locations=UA-RU-PL-RO-MD-BY

    As I wrote:

    Of Ukraine’s neighbors:

    Romania and Poland joined the EU.
    Belarus joined Russia’s Eurasian customs union.
    Moldova, like Ukraine, joined no one.

    Being beholden to no one helped Ukraine’s comprador Sovok elite avoid accountability.

    So the ones who joined the West did the best. The one who joined Russia did second-best. The ones who joined neither but stewed in their own corruption did the worst.

    So no fantasy.

    As for Russia vs. Ukraine, one can calculate:

    https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.PP.CD?locations=UA-RU

    In 2018 Ukraine had 34% of Russia’s GDP PPP per capita. In 2013, the last year before Maidan, it had 33% of Russia’s GDP PPP per capita. It was 34% in 2011, 37% in 2010.

    Moreover, Ukraine post-2013 doesn’t have its previously wealthiest provinces, which means improvement in the areas being used for calculation is greater than indicated (that is, if pre-Maidan GDP per capita was calculated for provinces other than Donbas, it would be significantly lower).

    Projected growth in GDP for Ukraine in 2019 is 2.7% compared to 1.2% for Russia, so the gap will continue to slowly shrink.

    ::::::::

    As we have seen, you don’t even know things about the city where you live. So of course you are clueless about this stuff.

  245. AP says:
    @Mikel

    You called me a liar because you didn’t like what I said about the Lugansk massacre

    I called you a liar because you lied about it. It’s that simple. People say things I don’t like fairly often but I only call them liars when, like you, they lie. Just own up to what you are. But you won’t – that would require honesty 🙂

    without any provocation, attack people accusing them of not being real Slavs

    Is that an insult? Should Germans feel attacked because I state that they are not real Slavs either? Have I attacked Ukrainians by stating that they have lower average IQs than do their Russian and Polish neighbors?

    It may be hard for you to imagine but some people view facts and accuracy to be neutral, not “insults.” Perhaps your inability to understand this explains your dishonesty.

    or for not having children without having any idea of their personal circumstances.

    I wrote “And you are childless….The collapse of the West in a nutshell.” I further stated, “I stated a fact that you wrote about yourself – that you do not have any children (when I read that thought – what a shame, for a decent intelligent guy not to leave heirs behind). And I stated that therefore you are part of Germany’s problem. This also is a fact..”

    When he explained it was due to health reasons I apologized.

  246. AP says:
    @AnonFromTN

    Serbia does not fit globohomo ideals because it demonstrates dignity and self-respect.

    Serbia has a lesbian prime minister:

    Ana Brnabić (Serbian Cyrillic: Ана Брнабић, pronounced [âna bř̩nabit͜ɕ]; born 28 September 1975) is a Serbian politician who has been the Prime Minister of Serbia since 29 June 2017. She is the first woman and first openly gay person to hold the office.

    Serbia’s pride parades are larger than those of Ukraine, despite Ukraine having many more people:

    https://www.rferl.org/a/serbia-belgrade-lgbt-pride-parade/30165481.html

    Ukraine won’t be accepted by NATO because it has unsettled border disputes – it still pretends to believe that Crimea and Donbass will return.

    These would disappear as soon as NATO membership actually became an imminent possibility.

    zero probability of it repaying its debts

    Ukraine’s debt to GDP ratio is decreasing and is at 61%, down from 81% in 2016:

    https://tradingeconomics.com/ukraine/government-debt-to-gdp

    In Greece it is 181%. Not even close to Ukraine. In Italy it is 132%, Spain 97%. All worse than Ukraine.

    Among ex-Commie states, Ukraine is the second worst. In Hungary it is 71%. Poland – 48%. Russia – 13.5%.

  247. Seraphim says:
    @Mr. Hack

    Did really Jesus came to redeem all and sundry? He didn’t come to ‘save the World’ but to save those who the Father has given to him from the World which will end:

    “THESE words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: 2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. 3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. 4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. 5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. 6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word. 7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee. 8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me. 9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. 10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them. 11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are. 12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled. 13 And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves. 14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. 16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth” (John 17:1-17).
    He won’t save those who deny, mock, oppose and fight Him. Those who refuse thanking politely to come to the Wedding of the Son of the King and those who came to the wedding without wearing a wedding garment. They will be “cast into outer darkness, there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, For many are called, but few are chosen”.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    , @AP
  248. Dmitry says:
    @AP

    I don’t know anything about Serbia. But just looking at key indicators, it seems like at least 10-15 years more advanced ahead of Ukraine, if everything becomes successful for Ukraine in the next 10-15 years.

    Serbia is probably an example to follow for Ukrainian development.

    1. Serbia has 4,3 years higher life expectancy than Ukraine.

    2. Serbia is upper-middle income economy. It has around twice higher GDP per capita than Ukraine.

    Serbia GDP per capita = $7,526 (nominal); $18,566 (PPP).

    Ukraine GDP per capita = $3,220 (nominal); $9,743 (PPP).

    3. In terms of EU negotiations.

    Serbia sent its application for EU membership around 2010. It now receives 3 billion Euros aid from EU in pre-accession aid.

    EU says it wants to accept Serbia around 2025. Serbia seems to be perhaps at least 10 years more advanced than Ukraine in EU accession (which is Ukraine’s strategic objective).

    4. In international relations, nowadays Serbia can combine good relations with the EU and with Russia.

    • Replies: @Korenchkin
  249. Mikhail says: • Website

    Regarding the church situation in Ukraine:

    https://www.csmonitor.com/World/Europe/2019/0904/Why-religion-and-politics-are-a-fickle-mix-in-Ukraine

    Other examples that put to rest the BS against the established Ukrainian Orthodox Church, which is loosely affiliated with the Moscow Patriarchate.

    ———————————-

    Nina Jankowicz gets a well deserved thrashing:

    https://www.rt.com/op-ed/469854-ukraine-disinformation-war-wapo/

  250. Mr. Hack says:
    @Seraphim

    And yet:

    1.2 Everyone is called to salvation.

    Salvation is not for the “elect”, or “chosen people”. God “will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth” (1 Timothy 2:4). Furthermore, “in every nation he that feareth Him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with Him” (Acts 10:35). Christ said: “I… will draw all men unto me” (John 12:32). He “died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again…” (2 Corinthians 5:15). From Christ the Apostles “have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations…” (Romans 1:5). With the Apostles “we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, specially of those that believe” (1 Timothy 4:10).
    http://orthochristian.com/46463.html

    • Replies: @Seraphim
  251. Gerad1234 says:
    @LatW

    FFS- can you stop telling me about my own language and lecturing me on crap I already know, you dummy?!

    Chas(a) goes to ‘chasy’, I. e. a collection of hours…. “watch/clock”
    It is the same damn word for the purposes of the argument I am making to that clear fraud AP account, who clearly can’t speak the language at even basic level. I can be as precise as I desire to be.

    I am not here to be victim of pedantic, willfully dumb nonsense…. and to take it up the ass

    Also, in future, address me as Gospodin whenever you next write.

  252. @AP

    Should Germans feel attacked because I state that they are not real Slavs either?

    Germans don’t speak a Slavic language (a core element of identity), so that comparison doesn’t make much sense.
    Anyway, I agree with most of Mikel’s points. In general it’s hard not to get the impression that you derive inordinate joy from endless internet feuds (which really isn’t more constructive than videogaming btw).

    • Replies: @AP
  253. @AnonFromTN

    Serbia does not fit globohomo ideals because it demonstrates dignity and self-respect

    You’re drinking the Kool-Aid dude
    Serbia has a strong anti-Globohomo core but it is not mainstream in the slightest, nor is it part of our politics, Serbia is a Globohomo Satrap and our currently only goal is to survive long enough for a proper Serbian inteligentsia to emerge and/or for Russia and China to push the US out of the region

    • Agree: AP, Epigon
    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  254. @Dmitry

    EU says it wants to accept Serbia around 2025

    Reminder that 10 years ago they said we will be accepted in 2015, and both the leaders of France and Germany said the EU is not looking to expand

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  255. AP says:
    @Seraphim

    This Orthodox theologian disagrees with what you claim:

    • Replies: @Seraphim
  256. AP says:
    @German_reader

    In general it’s hard not to get the impression that you derive inordinate joy from endless internet feuds

    I’m taking a pro-Ukrainian position on a pro-Russian blog. I enjoy debates with intelligent people, of which there are many here. But dishonesty and arguing in bad faith are bad.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  257. Seraphim says:
    @Mr. Hack

    Everyone is called to salvation, few are chosen.
    These are the words spoken by the Lord himself: “14 For many are called, but few are chosen” (Matthew 22:14). Read all the Parable of the Wedding Feast (22:1-14).
    “And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned” (Mark 16:16).

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  258. Mr. Hack says:
    @Seraphim

    Christ presents the only pathway to salvation, and with the grace of the Holy Spirit every believer is saved and has started on his pathway towards the “redemption” that Christ has already created, or has taken the first step towards deification.

  259. Mr. Hack says:
    @AP

    You’ve managed to reply to all, but me? #239. 🙁

  260. Beckow says:
    @AnonFromTN

    All latter stage oligarchies produce pieces of sh.t among elite kids. It is inevitable because the rules don’t apply to them. When you combine lazyness, entitlement, low will power, and no fear of consequences, you get a ‘meritocracy of Hunter Bidens and Chelsea Clintons‘. In Europe one finds kids of the well connected putting up absurdist ‘arts exhibitions‘ with EU money in provincial backwaters. I almost miss feudalism and its bloody life by combat, it focused the oligarchic offspring.

    The elder Biden is better. He is a simpleton, totally ignorant, but his self-enrichment has limits. It is downhill generation by generation. An interesting aspect of collapsing oligarchies is that elites actually prefer for outsiders to take over because they deeply resent and fear their own people – this happened with Rome, is happening in Britain, and US is not far behind. Wait until Prakakrishnas, Ilhans and Ximenas take over – the entertainment is about to get even better.

    Hunter! what the f…k, he knows the gas business (the Irish DNA), and at least he was named as an aspirational white guy. These are the good times.

  261. @AP

    Yea, unlike Porky, Ze apparently was not involved in the Biden/Burisma outrageous arrangements. But the reaction of Donbass commenters to the publication of the transcripts of Ze conversation with Trump was: prostitutes in the bordello show more self-respect than Ukraine.

  262. @Korenchkin

    Good to hear something out of horse’s mouth. But you view does not explain why a small and weak country like Serbia, despite an inordinate pressure from the usual agents of globohomo, the US and the EU, refuses to recognize Kosovo and refuses to introduce any sanctions against Russia.

    • Replies: @Epigon
    , @Korenchkin
  263. @Korenchkin

    As an American saying puts it, talk is cheap. Or, as Russian saying puts it, to promise is not the same as to marry.

  264. Seraphim says:
    @AP

    This ‘Orthodox theologian’ besides being a convert from high-church Anglicanism to Eastern Orthodoxy and identifying as a ‘democratic socialist’ (member of the Democratic Socialists of America), he embraces (quite belligerently at the address of the Orthodox) the heresy of ‘Origenism’ with its ‘universal salvation’, duly condemned by Orthodox Councils.
    Some people declared him the ‘Worst Gasbag in Christendom’.

    • Replies: @AP
  265. Mr. Hack says:
    @Epigon

    0.

    Exactly 0.

    I heard the same story for years from those of your ilk regarding the associate status and the ability of Ukrainians to travel visa free within the EU too.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    , @Epigon
  266. @Mr. Hack

    Yea, visa-free travel of prostitutes and toilet cleaners was a great Porky’s achievement. But now even Poles have second thoughts and turn away a lot of Ukrainians at the border, while even one of the most faithful imperial boot-lickers Estonia proposes to cancel visa-free travel for Ukraine. The next huge achievement of the uber-thief Porky was Tomos from Bart. Not a single Orthodox church recognized their creation. Now rabidly anti-Moscow Denisenko (Filaret) pours buckets of shit on the newly created “church” and its appointed head. Stay tuned.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  267. Epigon says:
    @AnonFromTN

    refuses to recognize Kosovo and refuses to introduce any sanctions against Russia.

    Because the West fucked up with their choice of compradors and managed to antagonise the once almost completely Americanized Titoist “Serbs”.
    Really, I am thankful and happy that Globalists/Atlanticists are such arrogant, myopic retards.

    If I were in their position in 1990, the whole of Balkans as well as Russia would be firmly Globohomo NATO lapdogs by now. But they wanted it all and wanted it immediately, in addition to letting private interests and greed undermine their geopolitical goals and national interests. Praised by certified imbeciles like Fukuyama while going from blunder to blunder.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  268. Epigon says:
    @Mr. Hack

    Bezviz is not a success nor relevant in any way. Germans raid Serbian labour market constantly, trying to get as many doctors, nurses, engineers and craftsmen as possible. IIRC, starting January 1st 2020, Serbs can seek employment in Germany with no work visa requirements.

    Yet, Serbia will never be admitted to EU.
    The EU explicitly stated no expansion in foreseeable future. There is no “my ilk”, I am telling you like it is.
    In my opinion, EU zenith has long passed.

    I welcome our Chinese Imperial Associate/Russian Gubernia status.

  269. @Epigon

    Yes, globohomo, its subservient Empire and the imperial sidekicks blew a lot of chances. It is said that when god wants to punish someone, he takes away his mind.

    • Replies: @Korenchkin
  270. Mr. Hack says:
    @AnonFromTN

    It’s too bad that you weren’t turned away at the border, another wothless gasterbeiter that never has anything good to say either about the country where he was born, nor his newly adopted country.

  271. @AnonFromTN

    Because the theoretical pathetic cuck leading Serbia that recognizes Kosovo will cut off his legs politically and some kind of conflict would become inevitable
    Currently the Americans control Kosovo, the recognition is just a formality, IE irrelevant as far as real politik is concerned

  272. @AP

    Didn’t Croatia do the same?

    Croatia got fucked over too, it’s currently run by a ex-Aparatchik Cuckservative regime which pairs Ustashe revisionism with fag parades
    All coupled with a massive brain drain which got worsened with their EU accession and now they’re gonna start bringing in workers from Bangladesh, so much for an ethnostate

  273. @AnonFromTN

    No, no
    Globo Homo IS the Empire, the only way this will all end is with the destruction of the source which is the United States of America, otherwise we’re just playing a game of containment like the Russians and Chinese are doing

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    , @Dmitry
  274. @Korenchkin

    Looking from the US, globohomo are parasites that are killing the host. They forced a country, the US, to act as an Empire, leading it to its ruin.

  275. @AP

    Serbia has a lesbian prime minister

    That in itself debunks the supposed NATO-Homo connection

    • Replies: @Epigon
  276. Epigon says:
    @Kent Nationalist

    No, it doesn’t. On the contrary.

    She was installed as a non-party outsider “technocrat” with US credentials.

    She is a powerless puppet, in reality.

    But her appointment was a brilliant move – Serbia was framed as a primitive, backward ultranationalist Russian puppet dictatorship in the West, inhabited by genocidal zealots.

    Boom – the first lesbian PM – Serbia! Serbia Yes! Brownie points right there, no one can spout the same nonsense again, especially taking into account it was “dictator Vučić” who proposed her (he has 55-60% support).

    As an added bonus, domestic red-yellow liberasts, Titoists and Euroatlanticists were foaming at their mouths when she was confirmed – for all their verbal diarrhea, an ex-Radical “ultranationalist” proposed the first female PM, first homo PM in Serbia, first lesbian PM in the world.

    The difference between token gestures and symbolic moves on one, and meaningful, strategic decisions on the other.

    Belgrade will host 2022 EuroPride. Sodomites and abominations from all over the world will parade, locals will be disgusted and embrace an ever more reactionary stance.

  277. Gerad1234 says:
    @AP

    HAHA…. so, once again, in covering up one of your lies, you inevitably expose another one of your own.

    I could have explained it better for the people who have not seen your language ” analysis”, but the point stands clear…… no way you even do the “Chas, chas, vremya” BS if you even have a clue on the meaning of “Chas” in Russian….. Something even the dumbest of dumb tourists into Russia would know

    I’m wanting another laugh, give us another bit of totally inept east slavic “analysis”…. Which is so bad it actually confirms ukrop as not separate from russian

  278. Gerad1234 says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    Many thanks Anatoly, but I reject the ban. Since the warning,my commenting was completely clean…. despite the obvious provocation

    Keep up the good work

  279. Dmitry says:
    @Korenchkin

    I don’t think centre of this fashionable new religion of gay, is not America.

    It is Western Europe, with nationalities like the English.

    Here is how they decorate the cover of a programme by a Western Europe university next month.

    Even though the lectures inside the brochure are not even related to that, but actually topics like re-ordering Balkans. (For such universities in parts of Western Europe, the new gay religion is so fashionable, they just add it randomly to the front of brochures with lectures about the Balkans).

  280. AP says:
    @Seraphim

    Well, according to you salvation is the monopoly of the Church led by a cigarette smuggler, reborn by a KGB snitch. That’s no less far-fetched than the idea of universal salvation.

    Here he is, writing about Origen:

    https://www.firstthings.com/article/2015/10/saint-origen

    • Replies: @Anon
    , @Seraphim
  281. Anon[249] • Disclaimer says:
    @AP

    Salvation is the monopoly of the Church (Catholic), because that is what He (the founder) wanted. It is not just by Faith, but by acts (a lived faith) and ultimately through Grace.

    It is rational, in the sense that a community with a principle of unity (Peter), a deposit of Truth (how we are to live and worship) and a way obtaining supernatural Grace (sacraments) can be understood as necessary in achieving salvation. But it is his law, not ours.

    The Church is not just man-made, but positively willed by God for the Salvation of those who will choose to serve Him on his terms, notwithstanding any or all human failings.

    “If you love me, you will keep my commandments.”

    • Replies: @AP
  282. Seraphim says:
    @AP

    Stop pretending you are a Christian. You are no better than AnonFromTN. Seventy years of ‘scientific atheism’ brainwashing in USSR have flattened your brain circonvolutions and therefore your powers of judgement. Your infantile ‘answers’ are painfully ignorant.

    • Replies: @AP
  283. AP says:
    @Seraphim

    So much pride, but you haven’t answered how it can be that the monopoly on salvation rests on the particular Church “reborn” under a literal Judas, a KGB snitch (Filaret was absolutely no different or better) and currently led by a cigarette smuggler and that all who oppose such characters are denied salvation. That is a rather odd way for God to operate, if it were the case.

    Seventy years of ‘scientific atheism’ brainwashing in USSR

    I spent about 2 weeks in the USSR. How much time have you spent under Communist rule?

  284. AP says:
    @Anon

    Makes intuitive sense.

  285. AP says:
    @Mr. Hack

    It seems that Ukraine’s long term prospects (perhaps actually sooner than later) of becoming a full fledged member of the EU is quite probable.

    “Sooner is extremely doubtful. Later is likely, but only if these conditions are met:

    1. Corruption reigned in to an acceptable level, at least to something like Hungary’s level
    2. Improved economy, at least to the level of the poorest EU member

    Of course, who knows what the EU will be like in 20 years or so which is probably the soonest Ukraine could achieve points 1 and 2.

    The question becomes, is this really in Ukraine’s best interests,

    Probably. But only if Poland, Hungary et al have been able to preserve their conservatism and (related to that) if the pendulum will have swung in opposite direction within the Western countries.

    I think that the center is confident that over time even these countries will cave, and embrace a more liberal stance toward these issues.

    Maybe. Or maybe nativist parties will break through into power.

    Also at stake is the center’s suicidal stance on immigration that seems inimical to the interests of all of these east European countries (including Ukraine).

    This isn’t too much of a threat. Ukraine is too poor, xenophobic and lacking in “infrastructure” (established community, welfare) to attract such people.

    • Replies: @Denis
  286. Seraphim says:
    @AP

    But your parents?

    • Replies: @AP
  287. AP says:
    @Seraphim

    Parents – zero. Three of four grandparents only spent 1939-1941 under Soviets. One, Orthodox Christian, lived under Soviets from 1920-1941, was persecuted for not attending school on religious holidays. This person’s mother had made a pilgrimage on foot to the Monastery of the Caves in Kiev (about 150 km). Father was murdered by Soviets, numerous other relatives were deported or killed. Those relatives in Ukraine belong to OCU.

    Soviet familiarity does play a role, but not in the way that you think. Collaboration of Soviet-era priests or monks (particularly the ones who got ahead, there were plenty of decent ones who did not) with the anti-Christian Soviet state was very well-known. Priests worked for that State. These people, Judases, were not purged after 1991, on the contrary – it is their Church. Alexei was one, Filaret another. It was a problem everywhere – the Polish Autocephalous Orthodox Church under Moscow* is headed by a former Commie snitch who was denouncing people to the authorities too.

    Taking the Church in Ukraine under Constantinople and away from Soviet-era figures is a blessing.

    100,000 of priests and monks were murdered under Soviet rule. The snitches and collaborators rose to the top. I am not a theologian, but I suspect that any ideas that lead to the point where this Church alone, the one in Moscow, determines salvation are probably wrong.

    You didn’t answer my question. Did you ever live under Communists?

    :::::::::::::::::::

    Files of the Russian Church are not kept open. But the Polish government has opened the ones about the Polish Orthodox Church. The Russian Church is no different.

    https://www.rp.pl/artykul/247370-Przeszlosc-arcybiskupa-Sawy.html

    See here:

    [MORE]

    The head of Polish Orthodoxy from 1965 was a conscious and secret collaborator of the Security Service under the pseudonym Jurek – according to files preserved in the Institute of National Remembrance.

    The Security Service conducted the operation against Polish Orthodoxy under the code name “Byzantium”. Her files have been partially preserved.

    There is also a work folder of TW “Jurek” with hand-written denunciations and annotations about receiving remuneration from the SB. Although no other folder has survived, the so-called personnel, in which the commitment to cooperate and receipts for the accepted money was kept, the content of the work folder leaves no doubt that the Orthodox Metropolitan of Warsaw and All Poland was a conscious and secret collaborator of the SB.

    The IPN files show that almost all post-war leaders of Polish Orthodoxy and most of today’s archbishops – diocese leaders were secret collaborators of the SB. The Soviet KGB also took part in the development of the Polish Orthodox Church, sending its agents who penetrated the Orthodox community. Information obtained from colleagues from Poland was forwarded to Moscow.
    This does not mean, however, that the Orthodox church was completely taken over by SB. In the files of the SO (the so-called object matter) of the “Byzantium”, information has been preserved about those who are rebellious towards the clergy, bishops and secular authorities. One of them was the Archbishop of Lodz and Poznan Jerzy (Aleksy Korenistow) – a Russian aristocrat. Although twice after the death of the Orthodox metropolitans he was the guardian of the metropolitan throne, considered to be the introduction to his appointment as the head of the Church, the Security Service effectively blocked his choice.

    The Security Service recruited Archbishop Sawa (secular name Michał Hrycuniak) on May 31, 1965. He was registered under registration number 12348. There was no personal file of TW “Jurek” in which the recruitment process should be described. However, we know from the preserved portfolio that he had contacts with the SB before he was formally recruited. “During the period (to be acquired) 70 meetings were held, which allow us to state that the secret collaborator is loyal, honest and indifferent to the SB authorities,” wrote the first officer leading Colonel Zygmunt Siellaw.

    The acquisition was related to Sawa’s assumption of a function at the Metropolitan Chancellery, corresponding to the post of chancellor of the curia. “The purpose of the acquisition was the need for current information on changes taking place in Orthodoxy, with particular emphasis on foreign contacts and negative socio-political phenomena among clergy and followers,” wrote the introductory note to TW’s “Jurek” folder.

    TW “Jurek” became one of the most important security agents in the Orthodox Church. Many preserved notes show that he has repeatedly initiated meetings to provide information. He informed the SB both in oral form (so-called dictates) and wrote denunciations with his own hand. He also provided the Church’s internal documents and even letters written to the metropolitan with complaints about individual Orthodox priests. He also reported on Catholics and Protestants.

    • Replies: @Seraphim
  288. Seraphim says:
    @AP

    I won’t answer directly to your question. I intend to respect the convention of quasi-anonimity that is the general rule (I gave nevertheless enough hints) in the blogosphere. Besides, in my horoscope it is said that I take much pride when people think that I am younger than I am.
    Anyhow, the golden watch of the ‘KGB snitch’ does not absolve Origen of its heresy.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  289. Mr. Hack says:
    @Seraphim

    “pride”…”my horoscope”…hmmmm….the attributes of a true believer who is striving for purity in his heart? 🙁

  290. Mr. Hack says:
    @AP

    It’s quite obvious that our old friend is an old Romanian sovok. He’s clever enough to entertain us here in our spare time, but apparently not smart enough to rise close to becoming influentual within Patriarch Daniel’s inner circle. He’s just another “hack” writer, nothing to loose any sleep over…

    • Replies: @Seraphim
  291. @AP

    For God’s sake, the man quoted a page of Scriptural citations, and your reply is some shitbag Anglo quote-unquote “theologian”??

    Go die in a fire, you pseud.

    • Replies: @AP
  292. AP says:
    @anonymous coward

    Protestants quote scripture all the time to support various claims. So?

    I am not defending the idea of universal salvation. I’m pointing out that the idea of a Church led by snitches for the atheist Soviet regime as being ultimate gatekeepers for salvation is no less dubious.

  293. AP says:
    @Seraphim

    If you believe most of what is written there you are much more naive than I expected.

  294. neutral says:
    @AP

    Serbia’s pride parades are larger than those of Ukraine

    Baby steps, Ukraine was ordered by the US to force this gay victory parade recently, I have no doubt that in a decade or so the gay parades will be as spiritually and politically important as they are in America.

    • LOL: Denis
  295. Mr. Hack says:
    @AP

    Have I attacked Ukrainians by stating that they have lower average IQs than do their Russian and Polish neighbors?

    I wouldn’t cower too much in front of Russians or Poles when comparing IQ’s. According to this site, Ukrainians average IQ’s is 95, Russians – 96 and Poles -97. I don’t understand how such slight numeric differences actually translate into the ability to perform tasks related to work or other necessary socio/economic functions? What I find most interesting, is that the very top 6 spots belong to Asian countries (104 – 108) including the behemoth China whose average IQ is 104. This is incredible because even with all of its new found wealth, the interior is still populated with masses of poor people. Diet and education (in addition to genetics) are considered very important contributing factors to higher IQ’s. I was also surprised to see that Israel’s IQ was 94, I would have thought that it would be much higher. https://www.worlddata.info/iq-by-country.php

    • Replies: @Korenchkin
    , @Mikhail
  296. @AP

    Should Germans feel attacked because I state that they are not real Slavs either

    No
    It would be like you were accusing Austrians and Norwegians that they are not real Germanics
    An argument from the previous thread which you never bothered to even adress

    • Replies: @AP
  297. @Mr. Hack

    There is no genetic hindrance that limits the IQs of Poles, Ukranians and Russians from reaching an average of 100 (some statistics show that Belarus is already there, but they are bit dubious imo)
    If they don’t converge to 100 within the next few decades then it’s far more likely that the education system needs reform rather then the population needing mass crispr intervention

    Serbia is finally adressing the big holes we have in the School system, so we should start cathing up to Croatian levels eventually

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  298. Mr. Hack says:
    @Korenchkin

    A bit “dubious” indeed. The informaton that I’ve cited shows Belarus at “93” a far cry short, I would think, than 100? Take a look.

  299. Data from Belarus is sometimes averaged between Ukraine, Russia and Poland, due to the lack of data
    I do have a map that shows Belarus at 102, but I can’t find the source for it rn

  300. Mikhail says: • Website
    @Mr. Hack

    I was also surprised to see that Israel’s IQ was 94, I would have thought that it would be much higher.

    A matter probably related to some differences between Jews of a European origin versus those with backgrounds from North Africa and the Middle East.

  301. @Mikhail

    It absolutely does not matter what Ukraine signs. It signed Minsk agreements twice and never did anything it promised. Same here. Too many crooks in Ukraine make serious money on that war for Ukraine to end it.

  302. AP says:
    @Korenchkin

    It would be like you were accusing Austrians and Norwegians that they are not real Germanics

    And if I were correct, and genetics showed that Austrians were actually Slavicized German-speaking people rather than actual “Germanics” than it would not be an insult but a statement of fact (this is probably true of many people in the city of Vienna) to point that out.

  303. Denis says:
    @AP

    Remember you wrote: “Russian patriotic movements, uprisings and individuals.”

    You are correct, I did. I should have been clearer, I should have said pro-Russian, rather than patriotic Russian, as all of those movements were, in practice, pro-Russian, regardless of their internal motivations. By the same fashion, the current Ukrainian government is rather pro-Western, even though many Ukrainians no doubt care more about Ukraine than they do about, say, Canada. I hope this is clear enough for you.

    • Replies: @AP
  304. Denis says:
    @AP

    And if I were correct, and genetics showed that Austrians were actually Slavicized German-speaking people rather than actual “Germanics” than it would not be an insult but a statement of fact (this is probably true of many people in the city of Vienna) to point that out.

    That’s not quite what you said. You were comparing Serbs to Guatemalans, who are quite different from Serbs in most conceivable ways, apart from the fact that both are harassed by America on occasion. So, it would be like someone making the above point about Austrians, and then saying that they are like Turks owing to their ‘impurity’. Although this would actually be accurate in the case of Austria, given that they have a significant Turkish population.

    I am as eager to hear your response as I am sure that it will come!

    • Replies: @AP
  305. Denis says:
    @AP

    Maybe. Or maybe nativist parties will break through into power.

    This is a prime example of the fallacy of wishful thinking.

    • Replies: @AP
    , @TheTotallyAnonymous
  306. AP says:
    @Denis

    You were comparing Serbs to Guatemalans, who are quite different from Serbs in most conceivable ways,

    The analogy was to Slavic ancestry. Guatemalan Mestizos have about as much Spanish ancestry as Serbs have Slavic ancestry, and Guatemalan Mestizos speak Spanish just as Serbs speak a Slavic language. These simply are facts.

    • Replies: @Mikhail
    , @Denis
  307. AP says:
    @Denis

    No, it is true that there is a chance of nativist parties breaking into power in Western Europe. Support for them is growing. I did not clam they would break into power, I don’t think the chances are greater than 50%, they are probably lower. But it is certainly not impossible.

  308. AP says:
    @Denis

    I should have said pro-Russian, rather than patriotic Russian, as all of those movements were, in practice, pro-Russian, regardless of their internal motivations.

    It is strange logic to characterize the Nazis as “pro-Russian” because their policies allowed Russia to step into central Europe and become a co-superpower.

    • Replies: @Denis
  309. Mikhail says: • Website
    @AP

    Guatemalan Mestizos have about as much Spanish ancestry as Serbs have Slavic ancestry, and Guatemalan Mestizos speak Spanish just as Serbs speak a Slavic language. These simply are facts.

    Prove it.

    • Replies: @AP
  310. AP says:
    @Mikhail

    I already posted genetic data, but you don’t believe in genetics.

    • Replies: @Mikhail
  311. @Denis

    On, that note, here’s an interesting recent article:

    https://balkaninsight.com/2019/09/26/deal-with-the-devil-austrian-serbs-embrace-anti-migrant-right/

    Serbs in Austria overwhelmingly voted for “Austrian far-right”. The article is obviously against both Serbs and the everyone that’s not globohomo since it comes from a Globohomo outlet.

    Still, the whole “scandal” or video thing with Heinz Christian Strache is very unfortunate, because if he and the Identitarians were still around in power, Austria very likely would’ve withdrawn it’s recognition of Kosovo. Feelz 🙁

    Anyway, I was actually surprised to learn that Serbs are the 2nd largest immigrant community in Austria, with Turks being the largest:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austria#Ethnic_groups

    • Replies: @Epigon
    , @AP
  312. @AP

    And if I were correct, and genetics showed that Austrians were actually Slavicized German-speaking people rather than actual “Germanics” than it would not be an insult but a statement of fact (this is probably true of many people in the city of Vienna) to point that out.

    It seems autistic. By this criteria a significant minority of Germans, particularly Germans from the East, including Germans who played an important role in German history and development are not really “German”,

    Even the National Socialists allowed people with obvious Slavic ancestry (Hadamovsky, Szorceny) to hold important positions and considered them German.

    It isn’t exactly as if Rhinelanders, Bavarians or Northwest Germans are homogeneous either.

    • Replies: @AP
  313. Epigon says:
    @TheTotallyAnonymous

    Pro-tip: Disregard and discard all media with “Balkan” in their name and description.

    That someone can write that immigrant Serbs are voting for a “far right” “Austrian nationalist” “anti-immigrant” party is all that is needed to reach a verdict.

    PS: An alarming number of Serbs in Vienna are Gypsies, Muslims and Yugomutts from Serbia/Yugoslavia. I feel for ethnic Romanians and the negative perception they suffer due to “their” “diaspora” all over Europe.

    • Agree: TheTotallyAnonymous
  314. Mikhail says: • Website
    @AP

    I accept a thorough accounting, much unlike yourself.

    • Replies: @AP
  315. AP says:
    @Mikhail

    You don’t accept genetic evidence for anything you don’t like, we’ve already gone over that.

    • Replies: @Mikhail
  316. AP says:
    @Hyperborean

    It seems autistic. By this criteria a significant minority of Germans, particularly Germans from the East, including Germans who played an important role in German history and development are not really “German

    I don’t know what % of their background in non-German. IIRC it’s something like 25% or so.

    This issue is easy to see and clarify if the different parts look different. An African-American is of about 20% European ancestry and speaks a European language. Would you classify him as a European, or as an African with a little bit of European ancestry who speaks a European language?

    So likewise, a Serb is a Balkan (Illyrian descent, I’d guess) with a little bit of Slavic ancestry who speaks a Slavic language.

    Even the National Socialists allowed people with obvious Slavic ancestry (Hadamovsky, Szorceny) to hold important positions and considered them German

    These people has Slavic surnames because they had some individual Slavic ancestors way back, but were 3/4 or more German.

    • Replies: @Epigon
  317. AP says:
    @TheTotallyAnonymous

    When I visited Austria last summer I saw several Serbs (and also Croats) working in stores and cafes. They seem to have been rather common.

  318. Epigon says:
    @AP

    1. I2a in Balkans came to Balkans from (beyond) Carpathians and is younger than Ukrainian I2a – points towards Indo-European arrival among paleo-Balkan people. Illyrians and Thracians are a mix of Indo-European migrants and locals genetically.

    This has been a common misconception – I2a being most prevalent in some region was automatically interpreted as I2a originating there – which has been debunked. Cue R1a and R1b spread and origin. I2a is called Dinaroid due to its modern prevalence there, not due to origin.

    2. Haplogroups don’t match ethnic identity, especially in case of Slavs and Germanics. The area which became completely Slav-dominated by 8th century was supposedly dominated by Germanic tribes for centuries. Starting with southern Baltic coast and lands east of Elbe, Bohemia, Moravia, modern eastern Bavaria and Austria, not to mention the lands that Goths and other east Germanic tribes controlled.

    From late Roman sources, Iaziges in Britain used proto-Slavic language. My opinion is that it is pointless to refer to tribal groups in terms of modern ethnicities because we simply can’t know the truth – the only things that remain are archaelogical finds that identify a culture, and contemporary, foreign accounts. Which contain Serbinum and similar terms already in 1st and 2nd century AD, placing them in Pannonia.

    You ought to investigate Frankish history and take a good look at Limes Sorabicus, Marches and the non-Frankish, Slavic population in them.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    , @AP
  319. Mr. Hack says:
    @Epigon

    Can you cite a few books or studies that you rely on to present your points of view? Very interesting!

  320. Mikhail says: • Website
    @AP

    Another inaccurate impression on your part.

  321. AP says:
    @Epigon

    I2a being most prevalent in some region was automatically interpreted as I2a originating there – which has been debunked.

    The question is, at what time did it arrive in the Balkans? Any links?

    • Replies: @Epigon
  322. Epigon says:
    @AP

    https://indo-european.eu/2019/05/dinaric-i2a-and-the-expansion-of-common-slavs-from-east-central-europe/

    I have only found this link yesterday.

    It aligns very well with my recent summaries and scepticism expressed here previously.

    • Replies: @AP
  323. AP says:
    @Epigon

    Thank you. Interesting blog post. The author is not completely sure –

    “How likely is it that Proto-Slavs (and Common Slavs) expanded with all those attested lineages to date among Early Slavs (E-V13, I2a-L621, R1a-M458, I1, J2a) AND also with other R1a subclades prevalent today, but almost absent in sampled Early Slavs?

    To sum up, I am not so sure anymore about the possibility of simplistically assigning R1a-M458 to expanding Common Slavs. R1a-M458 may well have been the prevalent R1a subclade in Central Europe among early Balto-Slavic – and possibly also neighbouring Northern Indo-European-speaking – peoples (let’s see what subclades Tollense and Unetice samples bring), but it is more and more likely that most of the density we see in modern R1a-M458 distribution maps is actually the effect of medieval bottlenecks of West Slavs, similar to the case of Iberia.”

    It will be interesting if peer-reviewed papers support this idea.

    How would it, however, explain greater frequency in parts of Italy?

    Also, there is another Haplogroup common in the Balkans but rare in Slavic lands, J2:

    • Replies: @AP
  324. AP says:
    @AP

    Note that J2 is rare in Bosnia due to the presence of I2 (which is very high in Bosnia). If I2 was “Slavic” one would expect Bosnians to look like Slavs and unlike Serbs.

    Well, here are Serb soldiers:

    They don’t look like Slavs.

    Belarussian soldiers:

    Ukrainian soldiers:

    Look like Slavs, perhaps some Balkan hints.

    Bosnians:

    Look rather like Serbs.

    • Replies: @Epigon
  325. Epigon says:
    @AP

    LOL, which “Serb” unit is that?
    I have already written that Serbia has unfortunately a large Gypsy, Cincar, Montenegrin, Albanian influx, especially in the south.

    [MORE]

    Serbian Army

    Srpska Army

    It seems you cherrypicked some Gypsies 🙂
    Not surprising, as part of NATO “reforms” in 2000-2012 period, the army was reduced to a social institution harboring women and minorities, with no actual combat value.

    • Replies: @AP
  326. AP says:
    @Epigon

    The don’t look very Slavic in your photos either.

    However I had assumed that the Serbian military would not contain lots of gypsies and Albanians and so would be a good choice for comparisons, but I guess I was wrong.

    I could have tried “Serbian nationalists” (also no Slavic faces) but the guy on the right looks like a complete gypsy:

    These Serbian nationalists in Crimea look like people from the Caucuses:

    Russian nationalists. Slavs:

    Ukrainian nationalists:

    Slavic type, perhaps with a little bit of Balkan touch

    ::::::::::::::::::

    If I2 was just another Slavic type one would expect I2 people to look like other Slavs. But they don’t, at all.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  327. Cherrypicking pics of crowds is for 4chan and Dvach

  328. @AP

    Which is why your argument is worthless
    Germans, Austrians, Swedes, Norwegians and the Dutch are Germanics
    Just as Montenegrins, Serbs, Bulgars, Russians, Poles and Ukranians are Slavs

    You lens for viewing this matter offers no practical use

    • Replies: @AP
  329. Dmitry says:
    @AP

    1. It’s easier if you post video of schools or mass events, not photos – because in videos you see larger sample of people.

    2. Why are you surprised nationalities in a Southern European country, look like browner Southern European people?

    When Slavic tribes conquer areas in the Balkans, then preexisting population is subsumed to dominant group’s culture and language, and became Slavs.

    Slavs today are nationalities formed in this process. It’s not a single Northern European race – rather, by definition Slav includes these Southern European, Yugoslav nationalities, which have Mediterranean appearance.

    Racially, nationalities like Serbs look similar to Italians and their main descent might be by Illyrians . This does not discount anything from reality that Serbs are a Slav by definition, history and language.

    3. Genetically, the closest to Russian, are the Baltic races. At least according to region – , for example, in the Urals, people who do DNA tests, return a often majority Baltic results.

    Do this imply Russians are not Slavs, because won’t have pure Polish DNA when you do the DNA test? No, as by definition Russians are Slavs.

    As the Slav category encompasses a large proportion of people with Baltic blood in Russia, so it includes nationalities like Serbs who have a larger proportion of Mediterranean ancestry.

    4. It’s makes you nationalist for Slavs to see beautiful Mediterranean girls in Serbia, than those losers in nationalist march in Ukraine.

    • Replies: @Korenchkin
    , @AP
  330. @Dmitry

    Imagine rolling up to Bismarck and telling him that he and the Prussians should stop LARPing as Germanics because they had a high R1a %

    • Replies: @AP
  331. AP says:
    @Korenchkin

    In that case, would you consider monolingual Russophone Tatars to be a third type of “Slav” alongside “homeland” Slavs and Balkan peoples?

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    , @Korenchkin
    , @Denis
  332. AP says:
    @Korenchkin

    1. Bismarck was from Saxony, not eastern Prussia.

    2. While eastern Prussians have significant Slavic admixture IIRC they are leas than half Slavic by descent. Probably the most Slavic of Germanic people are the Viennese. And yes, some Viennese of mostly Czech or Slovenian descent is not a “real Germanic.”

    • Replies: @AP
  333. Mr. Hack says:
    @AP

    I would. 🙂

    Or perhaps, that Russians are really Mongols!

    There must be something to the old, old adage:

    “Scratch a Russian and you’ll find a Tatar”! 🙂 🙂

  334. @AP

    If the Tatar language becomes extinct (or heavily Slavified) and the Tatars completely vanish into the Russians around them then why not
    Same thing happened to the Balto-Finnic peoples of Northern Russia, only conversion to Eastern Orthodoxy would remain

    This is how the Han Chinese grew to be 1/5th of the worlds population, this gives them immense power today

    • Replies: @AP
  335. AP says:
    @Dmitry

    So by your logic, Russian-speaking Tatars and Kazakhs are also real Slavs. And before you mention Islam – Bosnians are Balkan people who are Muslims but speak a Slavic language.

    There are very cute Tatar and Kazakh girls. Thinking of them as Slavs can also promote Slavic nationalism?

    As for Balts – they and Slavs are very similar (Baltic and Slavic languages split late, both peoples emerged from neighboring areas, they are genetically close). Being similar to a Baltic person is not contraindicative of being Slavic – on the contrary. But being like an Albanian, Italian, etc…

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  336. AP says:
    @Korenchkin

    These are all social constructs, right? It’s why Jamaicans are a type of Englishmen if they want to be 🙂

    • Replies: @Korenchkin
  337. AP says:
    @AP

    And a Viennese of mostly Czech ancestry pretending to be a hardcore German Aryan would be a ridiculous spectacle. Like Sicilian-looking Slavophiles in Serbia.

    • Replies: @Korenchkin
    , @Denis
  338. @AP

    Tatars have been mixing with Russians for over half a milenium now, Jamaicans are an isolated group from another continent that was brought from a third continent as slave labour, not the same
    Tatars with enough time could become indistinguishable from nearby Slavs
    Slow assimilation of similar peoples is a good strategy for a nation that spans a third of the Eurasian continent
    Tajiks are R1a so you’d probably prefer them anyway 😛

    I’m not arguing for CivNat cuckery, just rational long term policy towards minorities
    Assimilation into language, into religion and into genetics should be the goal, such a thing with people from another continent who have extremelly obvious visual differences are nigh impossible
    This is why Gypsies have failed to assimilate in every single European nation and always end up segregated in their ghettos

    • Agree: Denis
    • Replies: @Dmitry
  339. @AP

    Serbs and Bulgars have been speaking and writting in Slavic for over 1000 years, if such a Czech in Vienna existed then I wouldn’t be bothered by his Germanophilia

  340. Mr. Hack says:

    This is all very interesting stuff, however, the world really is becomming a “Global Village”. Because the world is already so interconnected and traveling around the world for most citizens of most countries is “di geuer” today, I don’t see how this trend will abate. Young students study at universities all around the world, fall in lover there, get married and voilla, the purity of the race (nation) has been “contaminated”. I have a cousin in Ukraine, who always felt herself to be a “Pole”, her parents are both Ukrainians (one is actually half Russian), she’s married to a Swede and now lives in Sweden. Any guess as to what her offspring will claim as their nationality? Thorfinnsson, help me out here?

    • Replies: @Korenchkin
  341. @Mr. Hack

    I have to concede to Thulean Fraud that the nationalist divides will become less relevant as the Important Sailer Graph becomes more widely known and all of these High Speed rails being built across Eurasia tie the world together
    If I were waging bets I’d place it that terms like Germanic, Slavic, Latin, etc. overtake the Nationalist narratives and the world just shrinks down to a dozen EU like formations battling for dominance

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  342. Mr. Hack says:
    @Korenchkin

    It’s plain to see what’s going on within the US. But within Russia things are just a little bit more concealed. I think that Russia is becoming a melting pot of sorts that’s being supported by Russia’s latest language policies geared towards its non-Russian regions (as if it already hasn’t been for several centuries?). To the consternation of “Russian nationalists” like AK and to “Slavic Purists” like AP, I think that they’d both shudder if they’re around in another 50 years to see the genetic composition of the “average Russian”. As Russia doesn’t really want to become a part of the European model, what’s left? I think that the Eurasianist vector pull will ultimately win out.

    https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/russia-fsu/2018-08-01/putins-plan-russify-caucasus

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    , @AP
  343. @AnonFromTN

    I found experimentally that I know the Bible, which I read twice, in Church Slavonic and in English (King James version) a lot better than practically every self-proclaimed Christian I’ve met

    Everything you’ve said itt, and this line in particular, are retarded catchphrases that might have been copy and pasted from r/atheism, along with extremely commonly cited bible passages, so I see zero evidence that you know Christianity better than me or any serious Christian. Based on the totally obtuse conclusions you came to which are impossible to derive from scripture I doubt whether you’ve actually read the bible, but it is typical of the character of the pompous atheist windbag to consider himself an expert on the subject after reading the bible a staggering total of 2 (WHOA!) times.

    I suspect that Christian Churches discourage their flock from reading the Bible to preempt uncomfortable questions.

    If you actually suspected this, which I doubt, than you’re just an idiot who hasn’t got a clue about anything related to what your trying to lecture others about. Nearly every church very actively encourages people to read the scriptures, if you actually think otherwise, you’re a moron who knows nothing. I guess being charitable I’ll just assume that you’re a liar.

    But besides your conclusions being non-biblical they’re also just nonsense, to say religion should be separate from politics makes as much sense as saying beliefs and opinions should be separate from politics, moral values given by religion are the basis of literally all political values, your own belief in secularism is itself a value of your false religion of materialism. But I did enjoy that after crying about MUH CRUSADES you mixed in a novel, if retarded, condemnation of the conquest of the Americas and Colonialism, as though they too were some religious crusade.

    • Agree: Mr. Hack
    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  344. @Mikel

    Bottom line is, there are too many gods to take them seriously.

    “There are many opposing opinions, therefore none of them are correct.” For supposedly not being naive you along with your materialist co-religionists have a great fondness for this moronic non-sequitur. The pretentious gas-bags who think regurgitating atheist memes makes them an intellectual titan are worse than the mush heads who think watching degrasse tyson videos makes them an expert on science.

    Tell you what, the story of God who sacrificed his own son to himself to redeem the world is among the most twisted and nonsensical ones in all religions.

    More nonsensical than spontaneously self-generating material world and a self-generating morality (that is somehow compatible with materialism) on top of it? I think not. (Both your and the slav expat hick’s posts betray your religious convictions on the matter of an absolute moral truth, it’s pointless to deny it).

    Despite the hick’s tendentious interpretation and phrasing, a God who, out of his infinite mercy, redeems the sinful nature of man through his own infinite self-sacrifice so that fallen man might not be condemned to die, is entirely logically consistent. The materialist fairy tale wherein the world came from nothing for no reason, and morality somehow exists just because, not so much.

    But to phrase your own idiot argument in a slightly less aggressively stupid way, you might say “I judge that there is roughly equal evidence in support of each of the many thousands of religions [a moronic thing to say, but then again yours is a moronic belief system], and so there are no grounds to choose any one theistic religion above the others”. But then based on that argument you’ve chosen the most naive thing of all to believe; any one theist or deist religion might be true, and at least one of them is the very closest thing to the truth we have, but you choose the position of materialism, which is certainly impossible.

    You’re right that your existence would be easier if you were a Christian, then at least (by your own argument) there would be a chance you weren’t wasting it on a false belief system.

  345. Dmitry says:
    @AP

    Self-identifying Tatars are usually proud of their heritage and history as a Turkic nationality. And of ones which intermarry, within a few generations their Tatar identity will be forgotten, so they indeed become part of a majority Slavic population by accident.

    On the other hand, it seems like Serbs are proud of their Slavic culture and identity. As far as I know, Serbs do not want or believe they are not Slavs.

    Probably Slavic identity seems still important for Serbs, and they might even believe panslavism? unlike e.g. Poles, who hate that ideology even in abstract.

    Kazakhs

    Well, if you believe the media, the situation in Kazakhstan, is the opposite than they might somehow intermarry and assimilate to neighboring Slavic nationality. Kazakhstan apparently has an issue with caveman nationalism like in Ukraine and the Baltic states.

    But more meaningful thing is that there is still common cultural space of all people of the USSR and Kazakhs can dance like gopniks as well as anyone.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    , @AP
  346. Dmitry says:
    @Korenchkin

    At least the recent round of Tatar intermarriage is very recent.

    If I recall, until the 1990s, Tatar intermarriage (marriage to non-Tatars) was less than 10%.

    However, now the rate of Tatar marriage is climbing very high, and Tatar demographics are reportedly fragile.

    In some sense, it will be sad if Tatar demographics collapse into assimilation, although this is the direction it happens.

  347. Dmitry says:
    @Mr. Hack

    Russia (like Ukraine) is “protected” from unfiltered immigration from Africa or the Middle East, by Western Europe, and its much higher standard of living compared to Russia.

    On this website, there are a lot generalizing comments of people claiming that “Africans are stupid”. But I doubt any except a few eccentric African immigrants are stupid enough, that they would want to immigrate to Russia, where there is a welfare paradise much closer in Germany, Sweden, UK, or even France, Italy and Spain.

    And as the economic situation in Russia has been stagnating recently, even some of the many Central Asian gastarbeiters are reportedly now leaving Russia to work in China.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  348. @Athletic and Whitesplosive

    Maybe I never met a “serious Christian”, but none of the self-proclaimed Christians I’ve met knows much about the Bible. Quite a few people have read only part of the New Testament (the Gospels), and not carefully enough to notice telltale contradictions between the four canonized Gospels (not to mention numerous others that were labeled apocryphal). Even fewer people ever read the Old Testament and are aware that the ten commandments are there twice (very different versions, BTW), and that many things described there positively would be deemed genocide and war crimes today.

    Besides, there is no such thing as unified Christianity: it consists of numerous warring branches and sects that disagree on almost everything. Not to mention that all of them put together constitute only one of the “big” religions (with hundreds of millions of followers; the others are Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Taoism, etc.)), and there are plenty of smaller ones, thousands, to be exact.

    But you are welcome to stick to your parochial worldview. It’s very useful when mental powers are limited.

    • Replies: @AP
  349. Mr. Hack says:
    @Dmitry

    I’m pretty much in agreement with your observations, however, I don’t understand why most of your comment is about reasons that African and Middle Eastern immigrants find neither Russia nor Ukraine as attractive destinations? When I write about the “Eurasian vector” I mean denizens of the eastern and southern parts of Russia today including the Caucasus, Central Asia and the Far East. The article that I cite is about these peoples….not Africans?

    There’s been talk over the last couple of years, that many Israelis are moving back to Ukraine and find it preferable than living in Israel. Is this true about Russia too?

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  350. @Dmitry

    City Kazakhs, especially educated ones, make a point of speaking only Russian at home. Naturally, like in all nations, ignorant villagers are a lot more nationalistic. When I was in college, we had two Kazakh girls in our year. They avoided Kazakh boys at all costs. One eventually married a Tatar, the other a Latvian.

    • Replies: @AP
  351. AP says:
    @AnonFromTN

    If most Kazaks or Tatars become like this (Slavic-speaking only), than by Balkan logic the steppe Turks are a type of Slav, just like Serbs and Bulgarians. Because language is what counts.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    , @Korenchkin
  352. AP says:
    @Dmitry

    Self-identifying Tatars are usually proud of their heritage and history as a Turkic nationality.

    Sure, but by your logic if Russian-speaking Tatars or Kazakhs decided “we are Slavs” than they would be Slavs, just like Russians, Poles or Ukrainians.

    • Replies: @Korenchkin
    , @Dmitry
  353. AP says:
    @AnonFromTN

    not carefully enough to notice telltale contradictions between the four canonized Gospels

    Those are eyewitness accounts and everyone knows that eyewitness differ with respect to some details. I haven’t heard anyone denying this, or thinking it is a big deal.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  354. AP says:
    @Mr. Hack

    To the consternation of “Russian nationalists” like AK and to “Slavic Purists” like AP,

    I’m not some sort of Slavic or any purist, I simply appreciate descriptive accuracy and oppose illusions.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  355. @AP

    Both look quite different. But I am for it: Tatars and Kazakhs have very pretty chicks (especially half-bloods). In my book cultural identity matters more than genetic. Besides, I don’t give a hoot about tribal origins, I judge people individually on their personal merits. As Russian saying expresses it, “you can call me a pot, just don’t put on the stove”.

    • Replies: @Simpleguest
  356. @AP

    Yes, as American joke puts it, if you have two eyewitnesses, you’d get three different stories. But the “apocryphal” ones had much wider range of stories. Presumably, those were eyewitnesses, too. But their testimony was banned. Why?

    • Replies: @AP
  357. @AP

    If they maintain a Slavic tradition and mix with Slavic peoples for several centuries (an entire milenium in the case of the Balkans) then yes
    Karlin himself agrees that any larp carried on long enough becomes legitimate tradition

    • Replies: @AP
  358. @AP

    We are not talking about sudden decisions

    • Replies: @AP
  359. Dmitry says:
    @Mr. Hack

    These sources of immigration are mainly exhausted.

    Some of them have small and fragile demographics. Moreover, the economic difference which motivates the immigration is falling. Finally, for Central Asian gastarbeiters in the construction industry, China is also becoming a competitor as a destination country.

    For example, if we look at Armenia, which is always one of the main source countries of immigrants to Russia.

    1. Armenia has a population of less than 3 million people.

    2. Armenia has below replacement fertility.

    3. Currently Armenia’s economy is growing faster than Russia’s (Armenia’s economy grew 5,2% in 2018, while Russia’s grew 2,3%).

    Russia is still far more desirable to live than Armenia, but countries like Armenia are economically developing quite fast now, so that the motive for emigration to Russia will be lower in the future.

    Well, we can’t say if countries like Armenia will ever converge with Russian GDP per capita, but the superfast economic growth in Russia of the early 2000s will not be repeated, and the current trend is that the difference with those countries is falling.

    many Israelis are moving back to Ukraine and find it preferable than living in Israel.

    People who immigrate to Israel from Ukraine, are mainly young people

    Probably the ones you talk about included also a lot of guys who went to Israel to avoid conscription to the Ukrainian army. Now the war is less scary in Ukraine – they go back to Ukraine.

    Is this true about Russia too?

    Rate of emigration from Russia to Israel is increasing.

    But again, this is mostly young people who want an adventure after university. A large proportion of them will go home after a while, like as if it was a long holiday .

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  360. Dmitry says:
    @AP

    How do you think North Africa became a centre of pan-Arab nationalism by the 20th century?

    Modern North African populations are not racially pure Arabian Peninsula Arabs. The regions were partly settled by Arabs from the Arabian Peninsula, joined to various Caliphates, and the local populations partly assimilated to the Arab invented religion (Islam), culture and language for multiple centuries.

    As a result, there developed a strong Arab religion, culture and identity in North Africa, although their Arab identity does not imply the populations are pure racially Saudi Arabians.

    • Agree: Mr. Hack, Denis
    • Replies: @AP
  361. Mr. Hack says:
    @AP

    Well, it’s been my impression that you’re interested in the “purity” of the Slavic race, and feel that those nationalities that exibit a higher proportion of the R1a halogroup, are the “real slavs” as opposed to those Slavs that carry a much smaller proportion of this halogroup within their DNA?

  362. Mr. Hack says:
    @Dmitry

    Probably the ones you talk about included also a lot of guys who went to Israel to avoid conscription to the Ukrainian army. Now the war is less scary in Ukraine – they go back to Ukraine.

    Actually, as the story goes, it’s middle aged Jews that are returning to Ukraine, ones with an entrepreneurial spirit (and pocketbook) that see a lot of business opportunities there that perhaps just aren’t as plentiful in Israel?

    How about in Russia, are disgruntled or perhaps nostalgic Jews returning to live in Russia?

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  363. AP says:
    @AnonFromTN

    But the “apocryphal” ones had much wider range of stories. Presumably, those were eyewitnesses, too. But their testimony was banned. Why?

    It wasn’t”banned” some of it is accepted as useful supplementary writings. IIRC they weren’t made canonical if they were written too late and/or if their authorship wasn’t confirmed or accepted.

  364. Dmitry says:
    @Mr. Hack

    It’s mainly young people without responsibilities (or money) which are immigrating to Israel from Russia/Ukraine/Belarus. And then a smaller proportion might be young couples who already have children.

    Of course, there is constantly movement of thousands of them backwards, after they spent all the free immigration benefits, then returning home, and then changing mind again a few years later, etc.

    No government is tracking that information or what the numbers who are changing their mind are.

    You can see in the forums there are constantly people saying they went home, then asking if they can access the financial benefits again if they immigrate to Israel a second time.

    Most of old people who immigrate to Israel, are because Israelis can only attain residency for their non-Jewish parents and grandparents, after they retire.

    So they have to wait until their parents/grandparents are pensioners, and then they can get them to immigrate to Israel. It is clever for these old people, because the hospitals will be better in Israel, and it’s free medical treatment available even for such pensioner immigrants that never lived in Israel before. (It’s one of the cleverest ways to get free advantage from the Israeli system).

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  365. AP says:
    @Korenchkin

    If they maintain a Slavic tradition and mix with Slavic peoples for several centuries (an entire milenium in the case of the Balkans) then yes

    Epigon suggested that the Slavs in the Balkans kept their distance and segregated themselves from the native Balkanoids whom they ruled, until after the Ottoman takeover. If correct, this means that not a millennium but several centuries. If correct, this also means that the modern people calling themselves “Serbs” are very different from the medieval Serbs and probably wouldn’t have even been recognized as Serbs by them.

    Karlin himself agrees that any larp carried on long enough becomes legitimate tradition

    Well, at least you admit it was a LARP.

    The US presidential candidate Elizabeth Warren apparently took on a multi-generational larp of being a Native American. Does this become “legitimate tradition” since it was carried out over a long time? Was Trump wrong to make fun of her larping?

    • Replies: @Korenchkin
  366. AP says:
    @Dmitry

    There is a difference between some sort of “purity” (which would be extremely rare) and simply being something very different than what one may claim to be. Prince Harry’s children will be Englishmen. A Jamaican is not an Englishman, even if he says he is one. I guess in the era of trans this seems weird to modern people.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  367. AP says:
    @Korenchkin

    You think that’s the only difference? If for generation Tatars and Kazakhs were Russian-speaking and insisted that they were a branch of the Slavs, as much Slavs as Russians or Poles, they would be such?

    • Replies: @Korenchkin
  368. Mr. Hack says:
    @Dmitry

    I don’t see it really as a matter of being “clever” or not. If an Israeli has non-Jewish parents, there may be other reasons besides obtaining better free medical coverage for them at play, although this is a great benefit. It would be even better for the Israeli family if these benefits were available without having to wait for any age/retirement restrictions?

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  369. Mikel says:

    How interesting that this (originally) Ukrainegate thread is still so active.

    @Athletic and Whitesplosive

    a God who, out of his infinite mercy, redeems the sinful nature of man through his own infinite self-sacrifice so that fallen man might not be condemned to die, is entirely logically consistent. The materialist fairy tale wherein the world came from nothing for no reason, and morality somehow exists just because, not so much.

    No, not at all. Our current knowledge of the origins of the Universe, the quantum mechanics operating at its early stages and the evolution of species on planet Earth (that obviously also affects their brain development governing their moral instincts) is tremendously more logically consistent than any story made up by sheep or camel herder tribes millennia ago.

    But I am glad to learn that you have convinced yourself that a powerful paranormal being cares about you and will take care of you after you die. I wouldn’t really like you to stop believing in such things, even though you have gratuitously used insulting language against me. I would never try to argue with my elderly mother against her Catholic faith. It would be a very silly and cruel thing to do. For the same reason, I do not wish to pursue any further debate with you on these matters.

    Re Slavs and Balkan peoples

    It is quite remarkable that nobody seems to have pointed out a couple of obvious things yet:

    1) Y haplogroups are nothing but random mutations on the Y male chromosome. The first R1a individual was probably a dark-skinned guy living somewhere on the Eurasian continent. These haplogroups have very little relationship with the cultural/linguistic groups that we use nowadays. Some subclades of the R1a haplogroup (male descendants of that primitive human being) are nowadays relatively frequent in parts of the Slavic-speaking regions of Europe but they do NOT define who is and is not a “real Slav” (a high percentage of Poles and Belarussians would not belong to that category, according to that arbitrary criterion).

    With tat said, northern Slavs generally look more like each other than like southern Slavs. Duh.

    2) Slavs, BY DEFINITION, are all Eurasian peoples speaking a Slavic language: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavs

  370. @AnonFromTN

    I always thought that inclusiveness is the biggest strength of Slavs as opposed to say, Germanic exclusiveness.
    That’s got to be, in the end, the main reason why their numbers grew to more then 250 million.
    So,one could argue that culturally or mentally AP is not Slavic but some sort of Germanic.

    • Replies: @Korenchkin
    , @AnonFromTN
  371. Anon 2 says:

    A couple of questions about the Russians moving to Poland:

    1. It seems that many, if not most, come from “provincial” Russia, rather
    than Moscow or SPB. Of course, my sample is small, and statistically
    speaking most Russians do live outside Moscow or SPB so that would make
    perfect sense. I base my inference on Russian vlogs on YouTube, e.g., one person
    is from Kazan, another from Siberia, and one from Moscow;

    2. Again this is based on anecdotal evidence (most vloggers are young
    women) but, for example, the person from Kazan speaks Russian with
    great clarity whereas I find it much harder to follow the woman from Moscow.
    By analogy, I’d compare the Kazan woman’s accent to Oxford English which
    is is extremely precise and clearly articulated (I once gave a talk at Oxford
    in my technical discipline, and was impressed with the accents of the Oxford
    faculty). By comparison, the Moscow accents could be compared to Brooklyn
    or Boston accents, not very pleasant to listen to, and more difficult to follow.
    Am I completely off the mark here? Full disclosure: I used to be fairly fluent
    in Russian but now I’m out of practice.

    • Replies: @AP
    , @AnonFromTN
  372. @AP

    admit it was a LARP.

    Ukranian nationalism is also a larp, AP

    Does this become “legitimate tradition” since it was carried out over a long time?

    Again, trans-continental with extreme physical differences and also limited to just one line of one family
    Not the same

    The comparison to North African Arabs or Germanics away from the coasts is the most apt in the case of the Balkans

    Epigon suggested that the Slavs in the Balkans kept their distance and segregated themselves from the native Balkanoids

    Looking at Frescoes and descriptions of Serbian Kings is enough to prove that statement wrong, the most famous one, Tsar Dušan Nemanjić, was very obviously of Balkan stock

    If correct, this also means that the modern people calling themselves “Serbs” are very different from the medieval Serbs

    They recognized them enough to fight alongside them, this desire for unity of peoples is embeded in the Serbian Coat of Arms
    And the slant eyed Karelian Russians would be considered an “other” to the old Rus peoples but due to Centuries of Slavicization and Russification they are now fully Russian, and Kralin is cheering on their massive rural tfr

    • Replies: @AP
  373. @AP

    If they spent Centuries to maintain and refine their Slavic dialect
    If they produced works of art written in the language and in general art celebrating their Slavic history
    If they developed traditions around it or adapted their old ones to be Slavified (such as the Serbian Slava)
    If they had a genetic connection to some other branch of Slavs
    Then why not

    What if the R1a East Germans finally get sick of der Ewige Wessi and all learned Sorbian and started removing Turks from Berlin, or if the R1a Tajiks stopped fucking goats and little children and became civilized for a few Centuries, would you deny them being Slavs?

  374. @Simpleguest

    One theory was that early Slavs would only keep their slaves for around 10 years and then give them the option to go back home or the settle with the Slavs, but after 10 years you’d learn the language and most likely get comfortable with the people around you so their numbers ended up swelling
    Sort of makes sense when you consider the traumatic history that many Slavs had with slavery (the very word slave derives from Slav)

    This attitude of absorbing neighbouring peoples was even reflected in the naming of countries
    The Russian Empire was called something like “The Russianist Empire”, not specifically Russian Empire, since it included many non-Russians (notably Germans, Balts, Uralics and Turkics)
    It would eventually lead to the poor decision to divide it into 12 Republics

  375. AP says:
    @Anon 2

    1. Moscow is as wealthy as any typical western European country. It is wealthier than Poland. So there is no financial reason for Muscovites to emigrate to Poland. And Moscow is a major cultural center so there is no cultural reason for them to move either (theater, arts etc. are on a higher level in Mosco than in, say, Warsaw). OTOH, provincial Russia is poorer than Poland.

    2. You are correct. Muscovites drag out their “a” and sound less “proper.”

    • Replies: @Anon 2
  376. AP says:
    @Korenchkin

    admit it was a LARP.

    Ukranian nationalism is also a larp, AP

    No more nor less than any other nationalism.

    Does this become “legitimate tradition” since it was carried out over a long time?
    Again, trans-continental with extreme physical differences and also limited to just one line of one family

    Not the same

    Physical differences just make the point more obvious because one can “see” descent quite easily (like injecting dye into the bloodstream during an MRI scan). But principal is the same. And although the Balkans aren’t on another continent (hwy should it matter? New Zealenders are more English than the English and are on the other side of the world) the Balkans are in a different place than the Slavic homeland.

    Epigon suggested that the Slavs in the Balkans kept their distance and segregated themselves from the native Balkanoids

    Looking at Frescoes and descriptions of Serbian Kings is enough to prove that statement wrong, the most famous one, Tsar Dušan Nemanjić, was very obviously of Balkan stock

    Take it up with Epigon. He is smartest of the Balkan posters here (he is very well informed) so I tend to take his claims seriously.

    If correct, this also means that the modern people calling themselves “Serbs” are very different from the medieval Serbs

    They recognized them enough to fight alongside them, this desire for unity of peoples is embeded in the Serbian Coat of Arms

    Native Americans fought for the Britsh and French, East Indians were in the British military, etc. It’s not uncommon for unmixed subject peoples to fight under their rulers/invaders.

    And the slant eyed Karelian Russians would be considered an “other” to the old Rus peoples but due to Centuries of Slavicization and Russification they are now fully Russian,

    Russians of the far north as Slavicized non-Slavs also. There are Russians of Germans and Korean descent like this also. So? But central and southern Russians (most Russians) are Slavs.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  377. @Anon 2

    Most Russians move to much more attractive places than Poland. There are millions in Germany and the US, but probably fewer than 100,000 in Poland. Poland appears attractive only to people from places much lower in the pecking order than Kazan or Siberia. Few places in Russia fall into that category.

    • Replies: @Anon 2
    , @Anon 2
  378. @Simpleguest

    Nor all Slavic people are inclusive, only those who do not have severe inferiority complex. Russians are inclusive, Poles and Ukrainians are not. There are Russian nationalists, but they never got more than 5-7% of the vote. After Ukrainian coup, which showed that any country can be easily ruined by primeval tribal nationalism, the support of those crazies plummeted. So, now they’d be lucky to get 2% of the vote. Russians often say that Russian is not a nationality, but a state of mind. I’ve already quoted Bezler, former commander of Gorlovka in Donetsk People’s Republic: “My father is German, my mother Ukrainian. So, who am I? A Russian!”

    • Replies: @gmachine1729
  379. Dmitry says:
    @Mr. Hack

    Probably, it does this to prevent some kind of chain migration process of economic migrants from former Soviet countries.

    But in end result, they are making them wait until they are old and pensioners before they can immigrate – where one of the main benefits is to upgrade their medical care, so they benefit from a medical system, while contribute no taxes.

  380. Dmitry says:
    @AP

    What is the relevance of Jamaicans? I’m sure they identify as Jamaicans – even if that is a nationality with a dark history, as it was artificially created by English colonists who settled the island and imported Africans to exploit them as slaves.

    In the case of Serbia, they have Slavic identity, culture and history. So they are Slavs. It doesn’t mean they are pure or even primarily racial descendants of historic Slavs (I’m not sure why that should be important?). Similarly, Arabs in Morocco are not primarily racial descendants of historic Arabs of the Arabian Peninsula.

    • Replies: @AP
  381. Mr. Hack says:
    @AP

    I think that the large Finish admixture into the Great Russian nationality is beyond any doubt today. Just one glance at this ethnographic map of Finish tribes within Russia speaks for itself. Even the central area you categorize as being one of the most “Slavic and Russian” within Russia was initially settled by large swaths of Finish tribes, including the territories of Vladimir/Suzdal and Moscow: Moksha, Mari, Udmurt and Erzya. There’s no record of these tribes ever leaving these territories therefore the correct conclusion is that they were all assimilated into the new Russian colonizing ethnos. Certainly, impressively large swaths of Finno-Ugraic territories within Russia:

    I might argue that the more “pure” Slavic element to be found in Southern and Eastern Russia is more similar to the Ukrainian nation found to the West, where there was no Finno-Ugric accretion.

  382. Mr. Hack says:
    @Mr. Hack

    I should finish a course in spelling. Two “n’s” in Finnish – my apologies.

  383. Mr. Hack says:
    @Mr. Hack

    I should finish a course in spelling. Two “n’s” in Finnish – my apologies.

  384. Mr. Hack says:
    @Mr. Hack

    I should finish a course in spelling. Two “n’s” in Finnish – my apologies.

  385. Mr. Hack says:
    @Mr. Hack

    I should finish a course in spelling. Two “n’s” in Finnish – my apologies.

  386. Mr. Hack says:

    AK – please deltete multiple comments – thanks!

  387. AP says:
    @Dmitry

    What is the relevance of Jamaicans?

    New World blacks are ~20% of European descent and speak European languages.

    Balkan Slavic-speaking peoples such as Macedonians or Serbs are ~20% Slavic descent and speak a Slavic language.

    Thus the analogy.

    I’m sure they identify as Jamaicans

    Yes they do. And not as “Englishmen” or “Germanics.” Despite speaking a Germanic language. So they are more oriented to reality than are the Serbs with their Slavophilia.

    they have Slavic identity, culture and history. So they are Slavs.

    You are young so it is easier for you to take this “trans” stuff for granted and accept it. Sorry, “identity” is not enough. Culture and history are questionable. Orthodox doesn’t equal “Slavic” (and Bosniaks are not even Christians).

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  388. AP says:
    @Mr. Hack

    The reality is the genetic reseach has shown that northern Russians are indeed largely Slavicized Finnic people (related not to Finns themselves but to Estonians and Vepsians) Russians from the central and southern regions are about as Slavic as Ukrainians, with only marginally more Finnic descent. So those Finnic tribes were swamped and didn’t leave a huge genetic trace, until you go further north.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  389. Mr. Hack says:
    @AP

    I’ll aree with you that today the genetic structure of Russians from Central Russia are very close to those inhabitents of Central Ukraine and Byelorus. This is because the Slavic element increased over a long period of time (centuries), but initially at the time of the formations of Suzdal/Vladimir/Mocow the primary ethnic component in these lands was primarily of Finno-Ugric compostion. The early chronicles all attest to this state of affairs and refers to this achtotonous element as “Chuds”, and the early “Slavic” colonizers were from the South and were comprised primarily of disgruntled Riurikid princelings and Orthodox missionaries. The influx from the South to the North was gradual and probably reached its apex during the time of heightened Russian Empire building projects in the 18th century. The areas of Central Russia up until the 12th century had little or no element of Slavic presence until this colonizing activity first started. Of course the history of Novgorod in the NorthWest is yet another different story. I’m sure that this principality, especially after its destruction and the scattering of many of its inhabitents to the Center, also added its trace of Slavic DNA.

    • Replies: @AP
  390. Epigon says:

    Modern Serbs LARP as Slavs. Fine. At least we’re not Bulgarians, or worse even, Northern “Macedonians”.

    Still better than “Ukrainian” LARPing.

    Is there anything more humiliating than becoming lapdogs of Pope, Poles, Lithuanians and Germans all of whom sought to subdue and enslave your, arguably, much more resolute and proud ancestors? Witnessing pathetic biomass modern “Ukrainians” writing online of “Intermarrium”, proclaiming themselves to share culture and identity with Balts, Estonians and Poles?
    Kissing the ass of Jews and Atlanticists who view you exclusively as useful idiots, tools to be expended in order to contain Russian Federation?

    One would expect more from a country encompassing so much of medieval Russian lands, seat of original Russian Orthodox Church and whose people fought against Papal and Polish domination.

    Serbia has been doomed by extreme negative selection and extremely dysgenic 100 years from 1914 to 2012, in addition to unfortunate HBD reality. I am aware of it, have been aware of it since high school.

    What is the excuse for Ukrainians failing so miserably, ending up as Jew and oligarch dominated shithole, labour exporter, sex tourism destination from the starting point as arguably the most prosperous USSR region in 1991, which also didn’t get the Yeltsin era “treatment” and separatism episode? How do you get to the point where you venerate anti-Semites while having Jews dominate the economy and politics (PM+President), anti-Pole fighters while fleeing to Poland en masse, in addition to ranting about sovereignity and independence while having foreigners (USA, EU, Germany) decide who your leaders will be?

  391. Mr. Hack says:
    @Epigon

    It’s much easier for you, a Serbian, to laud the merits of mother Russia, not sharing any borders with it and only benefiting from its occasional military support. Your language, culture and history never underwent any revisions from your dealings with Russia, as Ukraine has experienced. Serbia itself is slowly and systematically undergoing the same Western influences that you’re railing against occuring in Ukraine. The last that I checked, Serbia was well ahead of Ukraine in accesing full membership in the EU? I’d suggest that you clean up your own act before lecturing others on their supposed defficiencies.

    Oh, and please stay out of Ukraine (Donbas).

    • Replies: @Korenchkin
  392. @Mr. Hack

    The difference is that Serbs are fighting it, alongside Donbass Sovoks while Galician and Diaspora wet dreams are being used as an excuse to pillage the formerlly most developed Soviet republic to no end
    Using language standardizations or famines caused by Georgian Mario (which affected everyone else in the USSR, not just the Ukraine) as an excuse to continue to bash Russians is just retarded at this point
    In fact, if Ukraine was part of Russia then Stalins popularity probably wouldn’t be going up, since people there would be more aware of what transpired under his reign instead of only hearing about it through muffled Pravi Sector chimpouts
    Hell you’d probably have a chance to be part of the leadership 2 General Secretaries were from the Ukraine after all, and they no doubt played a role in UkrSSR still being a net reciever despite being so developed

    Serbia was well ahead of Ukraine in accesing full membership in the EU?

    It is miles ahead of Ukraine but it will still never become a member (hint hint)

    • Replies: @RadicalCenter
  393. Dmitry says:
    @AP

    It’s not an issue of age. Serbs are Slavs according to all conventional sources, dictionaries, encyclopedias, etc, (which are written by people much older than any of us).

    We can agree all that they are not pure racial descendants of historic Slavs. But neither is that a necessary condition to be a Slavic country.

    Just as English are not pure descendants of anglosaxons. Romanians, are not pure descendants of Romans. Latinoamericans are not pure descendants of Latins.

    National and cultural categories has not commonly been constituted according to purity of blood. Historically, more common, is that invading tribes subsume and assimilate the preexisting populations of new lands they go to.

  394. Dmitry says:
    @Epigon

    Jew and oligarch dominated

    Disproportionate “court Jews” in the top, is a theme in which Ukraine is still part of the post-Soviet countries’ world. A thin layer of Jews near the top is equal across Russia/Ukraine/Belarus. At the same time that all 3 countries have almost no demographic basis of Jews, to the extent Jews’ identity did not dissolve completely in a majority of cases.

    For example, Jewish Prime Ministers – in all 3 countries. In Russia, there have been 3 Jewish Prime Ministers already (Primakov, Kiriyenko, Fradkov) , while Lukashenko claims he has appointed 2 Jewish Prime Ministers so far to Belarus.

    Situation of Ukraine seems ironic only because Ukraine is by far the most antisemitic former Soviet Union country. But in all countries, there is the similar situation of “court Jews”.

    Another irony, is that in all these countries, Jewish demographics are fragile and dissolving. That’s not unique for Jews – Tatars are also going to dissolve now, just with a delay of a couple of decades, and Tatar demographic dissolving could be in a couple of generations.

    Putin (who is the most pro-Jewish politician in Russia) and his friends, with a lot of money, have tried to reconstitute a Jewish nationality and recreate young Jews in Russia. But this is going against a century of demographic trends.

    It’s more likely the Jewish politicians in Ukraine are like an “owl of Minerva spreads its wings only with the dusk” – just in the era most of the country’s Jews are pensioners.

    • Agree: AP
    • Replies: @Korenchkin
    , @Gerad1234
  395. Mr. Hack says:

    The difference is that Serbs are fighting it,

    Fighting just what? Serbia’s steady march to gain EU memberhip? In Donbas, along with heavily subsidised by Russian military support? Ridiculous.

    In fact, if Ukraine was part of Russia then Stalins popularity probably wouldn’t be going up, since people there would be more aware of what transpired under his reign instead of only hearing about it through muffled Pravi Sector chimpouts.

    Stalin’s popularity is only growing in Russia, not Ukraine, making it a Russian problem not a Ukrainian one. If the Russians still want to worship Stalin, this is yet one more difference between these two countries that underscores their irreconcilable differences. Better to let both countries to exist separately.

    Hell you’d probably have a chance to be part of the leadership 2 General Secretaries were from the Ukraine after all, and they no doubt played a role in UkrSSR still being a net reciever despite being so developed

    What’s the matter, you’ve never heard the old adage that it’s “better to serve in heaven than it is to lead in hell”? Ukraine’s wanting to have a stte o their own with all of the attributes attributed to statehood is not at all different that Serbia’s desire to also rule their own country, not be subservient to Turks or Austrians – quit being such a hypocrite!

  396. @Mr. Hack

    Serbia’s steady march to gain EU memberhip?

    Calling it steady is laughable, the ups and downs on it have been a rollercoaster
    We will never join it not matter what you hear on TV
    In the last few years we’ve made more progress with the EEU then we did in 19 years with the EU

    Stalin’s popularity is only growing in Russia, not Ukraine, making it a Russian problem not a Ukrainian one.

    Russia and Ukraine will never be seperate and problems in Russia will never not be problems in Ukraine and vice versa
    Especially with the biggest diasporas in Ukraine and Russia being Russians and Ukranians respectively

    lead in hell

    Some hell it was compared to what you created today, Slavic France my ass

    Ukraine’s wanting to have a state of their own with all of the attributes attributed to statehood

    Which it doesn’t have, will never have and never even had it in the first place
    A Ukranian state was always pushed by foreign powers with the goal of using the borderland to attack Russia, from PLC to Charles XII to Habsburgs to Hitler to John Mccain (and many others) the goal was to make whatever patchwork state and use it as a battering ram against Russia
    This is further reflected in the fact that the biggest hotbed of Ukranian nationalism is Brighton Beach, NYC
    Call it Ruthenia, Ukraina, Mazepistan whatever, every single one of these projects ended in disaster for the people living there and this one is no different

    Turks or Austrians

    Austria-Catholic, Germanic
    Ottomans- Islamic, Turkic-Anatolian
    Russia- Orthodox, Slavic
    Ukraine- Orthodox, Slavic
    Hmmm almost as if you’re making some bullshit comparison for the sake of wanking off a victimhood narrative
    Same case with changing Golod to Holod in Holodomor, see we are just like the poor Jews, pls send shekels Mr. Evangelical Ameritard

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    , @AP
  397. AP says:
    @Mr. Hack

    This is very possible, it would be interesting to run analyses on mass graves, say from the Mongol period, from core future Russia (Suzdal), if doing so is feasible.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  398. @Dmitry

    The Oligarch rule in Russia ended in 2003, I don’t know enough about Belarussian politics to comment on them
    Ukranie is still being divided up by Oligarchs, and it seems the current group is getting tired of the Donbass conflict

    Putin not attacking Jews is just smart policy, why would he want to invite free Hitler comparisons (more then the usual ones anyway), especially when Jews are dying out in Russia

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  399. Mr. Hack says:
    @Korenchkin

    Your inability to comprehend that one Slavic nation can occupy and try to colonize another one is not very impressive. Isn’t it amazing that after so many setbacks Ukrainians are still trying to establish their own state and govern themelves?

  400. AP says:
    @Epigon

    Is there anything more humiliating than becoming lapdogs of Pope, Poles, Lithuanians and Germans all of whom sought to subdue and enslave your, arguably, much more resolute and proud ancestors?

    Much of this “slavery” is Russian propaganda. Other than during World War II (and even this did not apply to Galicia) Ukrainians were less “slaves” than they had been under Moscow. A half-Ukrainian guy once sat on the Polish throne. When Galicia was ruled from Vienna it was richer than Russia, achieved literacy earlier, its serfs were emancipated earlier, and its citizens could vote etc.

    proclaiming themselves to share culture and identity with Balts, Estonians and Poles?

    Who said anything about Balts ore Estonians? But culturally, Ukrainians are at least as much like Poles as they are like Russians.

    One would expect more from a country encompassing so much of medieval Russian lands, seat of original Russian Orthodox Church and whose people fought against Papal and Polish domination.

    Self-destructive civil war that ruined the country.

    What is the excuse for Ukrainians failing so miserably, ending up as Jew and oligarch dominated shithole

    Russia, whom Serbs worship, has had more Jewish PMs than has Ukraine. And it venerates a Caucasian gangster that literally killed millions of Russians. This is better?

    How do you get to the point where you venerate anti-Semites while having Jews dominate the economy and politics (PM+President)

    Current PM is not a Jew. Nor are most oligarchs.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  401. Mr. Hack says:

    Situation of Ukraine seems ironic only because Ukraine is by far the most antisemitic former Soviet Union country.

    It’s not so much “ironic” as it is revelatory. Would a country that was really all that anti-semitic vote in a Jew as its president, only the second such leader in the world today? What Zelensky’s accession to the presidential position does is put into queston the veracity of this outdated and overly used stereotype of the Ukrainian nation. Could a Jew aspire to this high position within Russia? I doubt it.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  402. @AP

    Current PM is not a Jew. Nor are most oligarchs.

    Current PM is not a Jew. But the one before him is. Most “Ukrainian” oligarchs are Jews, with very few exceptions (some of which must be equally humiliating to “svidomy” – Ahmetov is Tatar).

    • Replies: @AP
  403. @Mr. Hack

    Could a Jew aspire to this high position within Russia? I doubt it.

    President is a really high position in Russia, and fairly high in the US or France. However, in current Ukraine “president” is not such a high position. I am not even talking about his subservience to the US (the transcripts of Trump-Ze conversation show beyond reasonable doubt who is the master and who is a lowly slave). Not to mention that Ze is a nonentity, a clown installed by Kolomoisky in his game with Porky. Even Ukrainian army and police don’t follow Ze orders. Porky succeeded in showing Ze that he is no more than a stuffed shirt, although he is really playing with Kolomoisky and Trump, Ze is no more than a pawn in that game. A Jew can aspire to a position of a pawn anywhere, even in the most anti-Semitic countries.

  404. Dmitry says:
    @Korenchkin

    In Russia, oligarchs/billionaires (regardless of nationality, and this group includes most nationalities in the country) are far more numbers now than in 2003, and richer too, and own more diverse mix of things, but they are also more quiet or “behind the curtain”.

    In Ukraine, where there is little state capacity, they are like buffoon wrestlers, fight on the stage. In Russia, they are more a quiet and careful elite. And in Belarus, they are some distant Olympian gods no-one sees or supposed to see.


    As for whether concentration of oligarchic power increases?

    I’m not sure how to assess this and it will vary in different cities.

    But for example, if you look at a city like Ekaterinburg – you will shocked how many things in the city, just lead to Vekselberg.

    You can see the new suburbs of the city, and wonder who is profiting from these projects where young girls kill themselves after reading manga?

    I was surprised because I follow this project for a long time, and only a few months ago realize the company which builds it is Vekselberg
    http://www.unz.com/akarlin/hong-kong-is-a-surprisingly-poor-city/?highlight=vekselberg#comment-3417310

    Or why does the airport name competition suddenly change the day before results – Vekselberg
    http://www.unz.com/akarlin/russia-renames-its-airports/?highlight=vekselberg#comment-3249516

    Putin not attacking Jews

    Putin is very strongly philosemitic in terms of his personal views – it is one of his most consistent things for 20 years of power, and it is not related to personal advantage.

    Attempt to rebuild the Jewish community in Russia is very genuine, and they spend a lot of money on it, not only from the ruling clique, but also with state support.

    Also things like pro-Jewish religion propaganda they add to federal television, just annoys normal viewers, rather than having any political advantage. (Most people don’t want to learn about Jewish religion in Russia, but rather have a negative view to this religion – yet they show propaganda about it on television quite regularly).

    But such ideas, cannot change demographic trends. Jews have had the lowest fertility rate of nationalities in Russia for almost a century, and the identity mostly dissolved, while there was disproportionate emigration of Jews in the 1980s and 1990s.

    There is also a paradox where if you try to rebuild Jewish identity in young people of Jewish descent, then they will be more likely to move to Israel, and then later to try to emigrate to Canada. So the demographic situation becomes more fragile when they start establishing Jewish schools, etc (this is what happened to the Jews of Birobidzhan in the 2000s, according to a documentary I saw)

    • Replies: @Gerad1234
  405. Mr. Hack says:
    @AP

    Do you doubt that the Finno-Ugric tribes that encompassed the Central territories of what later developed into Suzdal/Vladimir/Moscow were the real autochtons of the area? Of course it would be great to have evidence from gravesites of that area, but absent any such validation (actually there may be such evidence?) why doubt the written record? Take a closer look at the map in #393. I stand by my original statement:

    There’s no record of these tribes ever leaving these territories therefore the correct conclusion is that they were all assimilated into the new Russian colonizing ethnos.

    • Replies: @AP
  406. @Epigon

    Modern Serbs LARP as Slavs. Fine.

    So it took for AP to pathologically keep insisting that Serbs aren’t real Slavs for you, and Korenchkin, to finally lose your patience with the Ukrainian commenters. Understandable.

    Northern “Macedonians”

    They’re called Monkeydonians, get it right.

    Is there anything more humiliating than becoming lapdogs of Pope, Poles, Lithuanians and Germans all of whom sought to subdue and enslave your, arguably, much more resolute and proud ancestors? Witnessing pathetic biomass modern “Ukrainians” writing online of “Intermarrium”, proclaiming themselves to share culture and identity with Balts, Estonians and Poles?
    Kissing the ass of Jews and Atlanticists who view you exclusively as useful idiots, tools to be expended in order to contain Russian Federation?

    What’s interesting is that Ukrainians genuinely don’t seem to find any of this humiliating at all. They actually seem to even see it all as a source of pride, since they’re so fixated on fighting “evil Russians”. I personally don’t understand this mentality and mindset, but it is what it is. There’s no point in getting angry about it.

    I personally find it to actually be much more cringe than infuriating when a fake nation and LARPer people (Ukranians) go on about how your nation and people are fake LARPers (Serbs).

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  407. AP says:
    @AnonFromTN

    Current PM is not a Jew. But the one before him is

    Russia has had more Jewish PMs than has Ukraine. But no Jewish president.

    Most “Ukrainian” oligarchs are Jews, with very few exceptions (some of which must be equally humiliating to “svidomy” – Ahmetov is Tatar).

    Ukrainian billionaires:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Ukrainians_by_net_worth

    1. Rinat Akhmetov, Tatar
    2. Kostyantin Zhevago, Ukrainian
    3. Yuriy Kosiuk, Ukrainian
    4. Viktor Pinchuk, Jew
    5. Henadiy Boholyubov, Jew
    6. Ihor Kolomoyskiy, Jew
    7. Vadim Novinsky, Russian

    (Poroshenko is not a billionaire anymore, but he isn’t Jewish either)

    So less than 50% of Ukraine’s billionaires are Jews. There are are more Jewish than Ukrainian billionaires.

    The only central Ukrainian on the list, Kosiuk, is an ethnic Ukrainian.

    Russia has many or than 7 billionaires. Now look at Russia’s richest 10:

    1. Leonid Mikhelson – Jewish
    2. Vladimir Lisin – Russian
    3. Vagit Alekperov – Azeri
    4. Alexei Mordashov, Russian
    5. Gennady Timchenko – Russian/Ukrainian
    6. Vladimir Potanin – Russian
    7. Mikhail Fridman – Jewish
    8. Andrey MElnichenko – Belarussian
    9. Alisher Usmanov – Uzbek
    10. Roman Abramovich – Jewish

    (#11 and #12 are Jews also)

    So fewer than 50% Russian of Russia’s 10 richest oligarchs are ethnic Russians.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    , @melanf
    , @Denis
  408. Mr. Hack says:
    @TheTotallyAnonymous

    I personally don’t understand this mentality and mindset, but it is what it is. There’s no point in getting angry about it.

    It’s quite obvious that you haven’t tried to understand it, and know nothing at all about Ukrainian history. But you like to chime in and yap, yap, tap like an ignorant baboon, trying to pose as some sort last minute sage of wisdom.

    Just for the record, when talking about national identities, I tend to side more with somebody like Dmitry regarding the formation of national identities, that includes an expansion of the idea to include cultural converts, not just those that carry certain specific genetic markers.

  409. AP says:
    @Korenchkin

    Russia and Ukraine will never be seperate and problems in Russia will never not be problems in Ukraine and vice versa

    LOL, for a non-Slavic Balkanoid, all Slavs must seem the same.

    Well, to be fair, Balkanoids are all alike to us Slavs. Serbians, Macedonians, Bulgarians are very similar. Slovenians (Slavs) and Croatians (half-Slavs) are different from them.

    A Ukranian state was always pushed by foreign powers with the goal of using the borderland to attack Russia, from PLC to Charles XII to Habsburgs to Hitler to John Mccain (and many others) the goal was to make whatever patchwork state and use it as a battering ram against Russia

    Kind of like Hapsburgs or Russians using Balkanoids against Turks. How “terrible” of them. Actually, IIRC, the arch-conservative Russian philosopher Leontiev wanted to keep Balkanoids under the Ottomans.

    Call it Ruthenia, Ukraina, Mazepistan whatever, every single one of these projects ended in disaster for the people living there and this one is no different

    And yet the situation was more disastrous under Russia. When Galicia was ruled from Vienna it was wealthier than Russia and wealthier than southern European counties such as Portugal and the Balkans. It also achieved mass literacy sooner. Ukraine as part of PLC was more civilized the Russia. And of course fall of UNR in 1920 and rule from Russia was followed by starvation of millions of Ukrainians.

    I suppose a Balkan wouldn’t understand these Slavic matters though 🙂

    When you discuss Ukraine and Russia you are like a Guatemalan mestizo arguing about Spain vs. Cataluna with Spaniards and Catalans (though Ukraine is culturally further from Russia than Cataluna from Castille).

  410. @Mr. Hack

    Fighting just what? Serbia’s steady march to gain EU membership? In Donbas, along with heavily subsidised by Russian military support? Ridiculous.

    This statement reeks of Ukranian jealousy at Serbs, honestly. It also implies the cringe attitude that Serbia is a “Trojan Horse” of Russia in Europe that somehow has the “privilege” of both sending volunteers to fight on Russia’s side and join the EU.

    By the way, Serbia will never join the EU because EU membership for Serbia has been de facto made conditional upon Serbia recognizing Kosovo and abandoning any claims over it. This is something that will never happen despite all the media buzz and US diplomatic pressure since, as polls have made clear, the overwhelming majority of Serbians value Serbian sovereignty over Kosovo much more than EU membership (or any potential of it). Not to mention the fact that the interest, desire and ability for EU enlargement to happen is practically dead in Europe due to internal issues.

    So yes, even though Serbia’s position (same for Republika Srpska) is far from favorable as it is encircled by the EU and NATO, by not recognizing Kosovo, Serbia is resisting the USA, EU and NATO to the fullest extent that it can under current circumstances, even if it takes lies and deceptions to fool everyone else. Hence things like the Kosovo border swap proposition, and all the other contradictory and duplicitous behaviors and signals from Aleksander Vucic and Serbia’s government. Honestly, the possibility that Serbs end up capitulating under intense US pressure does exist, and is very real, but even if we do, since 1990 we’ve already done infinitely more to be sovereign and defy western influences than Ukrainians have ever done, or ever will …

  411. AP says:
    @Mr. Hack

    Do you doubt that the Finno-Ugric tribes that encompassed the Central territories of what later developed into Suzdal/Vladimir/Moscow were the real autochtons of the area?

    I don’t, but it seems that they had very sparsely settled the regions and were demographically swamped by the Slavic tribes moving in.

    The Balkans, OTOH, were more densely settled, had kingdoms and towns. So the Slavs who moved in were heavily outnumbered by the locals.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  412. @AP

    UOC has 7,000 parishes, more than the Serbian and Bulgarian Churches combined. While the Moscow Church in Ukraine has 12,000 parishes these are often show parishes; OCU has many more believers.

    So what? Ukraine has several times larger population than Bulgaria or Serbia. Proportion to population size must be taken into account.

    I may be delusional, biased, uninformed – but I simply don’t see any bright future for a country that has to toe Globohomo AND ultranationalist lines at the same time

    Didn’t Croatia do the same?

    It’s very important to clarify why Ukraine will not be able to pull off against Russia and Donbass Russians what Croatia got away with against Serbia and Krajina Serbs from 1990-2013.

    1: Putin is not a Slobodan Milosevic who is willing to abandon his own countrymen stuck across an artificial political boundary. This means that a Ukranian Army Operation Storm of Donbass Russians is impossible. By succeeding with incorporating Crimea, Putin already demonstrated that he’s not Slobodan Milosevic.

    2: This means that Ukraine will be stuck in a frozen conflict with the Donbass Russians for a long time to come. Ukraine cannot do much of anything while it is stuck in this frozen conflict, let alone join the EU or NATO.

    3: As has been made clear repeatedly over the last few years, EU expansion is basically dead due to internal European issues. By the way, Croatia only managed to join the EU in 2013 and it is the newest EU member. It looks more and more likely that Croatia will be the last country to have ever joined the EU.

    4: The only thing truly stopping the Russian political leadership and military from sending the Russian Army into Kiev and annexing at least half of Ukraine, if not more, is the NATO presence in East Europe and the potential for the USA to turn this into WW3. The Ukraine has effectively latched itself on to the USA as one of its many anti-Russian proxies. This means that Ukraine is done for without the USA. The USA is suffering from internal dysfunction, instability and overextension. This is only looking to become much more serious in the future, not better.

    As much as I have certain biases, I would contend that this is a rather accurate depiction of the reality of Ukraine’s present and future geo-political situation. Without the USA, Ukraine is literally at the mercy of Russia, which is why Ukrainians should think twice before burning Russians alive in the Donbass …

    • Replies: @AP
  413. @Mr. Hack

    It’s quite obvious that you haven’t tried to understand it, and know nothing at all about Ukrainian history.

    What is there to understand about a branch of Russian history? Spare me trying to pretend that Bogdan Khmelnitsky was an “ethnic Ukrainian” and that Kievan Rus was an “ancient Ukrainian state” …

    But you like to chime in and yap, yap, tap like an ignorant baboon, trying to pose as some sort last minute sage of wisdom.

    Well, you literally squirm, squeal and whine with hardcore Svidomy at anything you don’t like. Especially about how AnonFromTN is a “Ukranian Janissary”. I could easily go full Gerard2 on you, but there is no need for that. I actually find your Svidomy rather amusing and interesting at times honestly, even though I often disagree with it.

    Just for the record, when talking about national identities, I tend to side more with somebody like Dmitry regarding the formation of national identities, that includes an expansion of the idea to include cultural converts, not just those that carry certain specific genetic markers.

    Fair enough.

    • Replies: @AP
    , @Mr. Hack
  414. AP says:
    @TheTotallyAnonymous

    What is there to understand about a branch of Russian history?

    Yes, to a non-Slavic Balkanoid all actual Slavs seem to be the same.

    Spare me trying to pretend that Bogdan Khmelnitsky was an “ethnic Ukrainian”

    He was certainly more of a renegade Pole than he was a Russian. He appealed to the Polish king against his main enemies, the Rus magnates, when this didn’t work he allied with the Tatars. Only when the Tatars betrayed him did he seek the Russian alliance. He needed interpreters during the negotiations with the Russians (he spoke his local Ruthenian language, Latin and Polish). And before his death, he was plotting with the Swedes against the Russians…

  415. Anon 2 says:
    @AnonFromTN

    It’s well-known that Russians and Ukrainians are very impressed by
    Germany. On the other hand, the Polish and the Czechs don’t find
    Germany, over its 1200 year history, very impressive, for many reasons,
    mostly due to the German propensity to extreme violence (e.g., 3 genocides
    in 40 years in the 20th century, starting with SW Africa) and almost
    complete absence of democratic traditions. You know people well when
    you share a border with them. Fortunately, Europe has learned to
    restrain the Germanics. They can be useful to Europe but, like rabid dogs, they
    must be kept on a short leash, by being embedded within the NATO structures
    (over 300 bases on the German soil), etc. As I argued before, Germany is a failed
    civilization. Not a single country outside of Europe wants to speak German,
    and in the U.S. the study of German is rapidly coming to an end.

  416. AP says:
    @TheTotallyAnonymous

    UOC has 7,000 parishes, more than the Serbian and Bulgarian Churches combined. While the Moscow Church in Ukraine has 12,000 parishes these are often show parishes; OCU has many more believers.

    So what?

    It means those millions of believers are more important than those of Serbia and Bulgaria combined. More souls.

    I may be delusional, biased, uninformed – but I simply don’t see any bright future for a country that has to toe Globohomo AND ultranationalist lines at the same time

    Didn’t Croatia do the same?

    It’s very important to clarify why Ukraine will not be able to pull off against Russia and Donbass Russians what Croatia got away with against Serbia and Krajina Serbs from 1990-2013.

    What did my comment have to do with that? Reading problem?

    The only thing truly stopping the Russian political leadership and military from sending the Russian Army into Kiev and annexing at least half of Ukraine, if not more, is the NATO presence in East Europe and the potential for the USA to turn this into WW3.

    LOL no.

    Ukraine has between 1/4 and 1/5 of Russia’s population. Its military has reformed and rearmed, and is currently the second largest in Europe, with 100,00s of trained reserves. It now has missiles that can strike a couple hundred km into Russia.

    While Russia would obviously win such a war it would be expensive and bloody for both sides. If USA disappeared Russia would not be sending its tanks into Ukraine. It isn’t 2014 anymore and the world isn’t a video game.

    • Replies: @TheTotallyAnonymous
  417. Anon 2 says:
    @AP

    If we are comparing cities, then Warsaw (a city of 3 million in the metro
    area), in terms of its GDP (PPP) per capita, is as rich as many cities in W. Europe,
    and unlike Paris or London it’s clean and safe. Unlike Warsaw, Moscow and Kiev
    were not turned into rubble by the Germans, so city-to-city comparisons would
    be illogical at this point. Warsaw is still rebuilding. For example, the famous
    Saxon Palace, destroyed by the Germans in 1944, will be rebuilt in the next 5 years or
    so. It was at its former site that Germany’s President recently asked Poland for
    forgiveness.

    Central European mentality is defined by moderation in all things, due perhaps
    to the Aristotelian virtue ethics (similar to Buddhist ethics) that’s dominant in
    Catholicism. This implies a Goldilocks principle – there is a sweet spot for everything.
    Thus countries should be neither too small nor too large. Russia, China, and the
    U.S. violate this rule, and need to be broken up into smaller components. Cities,
    similarly, should not be too large because when they are no longer human-sized
    they separate man from nature which increases rates of mental illness. Very large
    cities tend to produce millions of urban neurotics. In the same way, people
    (or countries) should be neither very poor nor very rich – middle class is best.
    Here it’s useful to compare GINI coefficients: 48 (U.S.) v. high inequality,
    37.7(Russia) high inequality (too many oligarchs), and 27,8 (Poland) low
    inequality. The low GINI coefficient for Poland is consistent with the Goldilocks
    mentality that is dominant in Central Europe. We don’t find oligarchs
    very impressive.

    • Replies: @AP
    , @Gerad1234
  418. @AP

    Actually, IIRC, the arch-conservative Russian philosopher Leontiev wanted to keep Balkanoids under the Ottomans.

    I assume you mean Konstantin Leontiev?

    The opinion of homosexuals does not count for much and tends to be proven rather worthless. Just take a look at the garbage writings of French homosexual count Astolphe de Custine about Russia.

    When you discuss Ukraine and Russia you are like a Guatemalan mestizo arguing about Spain vs. Cataluna with Spaniards and Catalans (though Ukraine is culturally further from Russia than Cataluna from Castille).

    Bold statement. Would you care to prove how exactly there is a greater difference between Russians and Ukranians than between Spaniards and Catalans?

    • Replies: @AP
  419. @AP

    Ukraine has between 1/4 and 1/5 of Russia’s population. Its military has reformed and rearmed, and is currently the second largest in Europe, with 100,00s of trained reserves. It now has missiles that can strike a couple hundred km into Russia.

    Lol. What missiles? If Ukraine does not have nuclear missiles, they are basically useless and can’t effectively threaten Russia. Ukraine gave away its whole nuclear arsenal in the 1990’s anyway.

    While Russia would obviously win such a war it would be expensive and bloody for both sides.

    Would it really be so bloody and expensive? A direct 1v1 between Russia and Ukraine would obviously end in a decisive Russian victory. It’s possible that Ukraine’s Army could hold for a week or two, certainly not more than a month, before getting overwhelmed by Russian numbers and capabilities (maybe a generous assessment?).

    If USA disappeared Russia would not be sending its tanks into Ukraine. It isn’t 2014 anymore and the world isn’t a video game.

    If the USA disappeared, Ukraine would lose its most important and major great power backer. It would be completely alone against Russia (don’t even bother with hypothetical Intermarium LARPs) since there’s no reason for China to support Ukraine or something. Not to mention that Hungary and Romania could go after smaller patches of Ukraine in a scenario without the USA anyway.

    Lol. Video game? You are the one who has a video game mentality to geo-politics if you think that there is something besides the USA that is holding Russia back (internal dynamics maybe?) from sending its army into the Ukraine (at minimum, the Donbass).

    No USA/NATO = Russia has free reign over Ukraine.

    • Replies: @AP
  420. Anon 2 says:

    NEWS: Trump approved Poland’s entry to the visa-free program. Finally!
    After all, Czechia, Slovakia, Hungary, and Lithuania have been part of the
    visa-free travel program for quite some time now. Poland and the United
    States have had close ties for centuries. There are 10 million Polish Americans.
    The first Polish came to America on the Mayflower. Two Polish generals
    (Kosciuszko and Pulaski) fought in the Revolutionary War. In the U.S.
    there are more statues of Gen. Kosciuszko than any other person other
    than George Washington. A Polish general fought in the Civil War.
    Polish pianist Paderewski was close friends with President Wilson and General
    Patton – those friendships contributed to Poland regaining independence
    in 1918. Practically every Pole has relatives or friends in the U.S.

  421. @AnonFromTN

    Lol. I learned during our national day holiday watching some foreign diplomacy related TV series that Mao’s son (who died in 1950 in the Korean War) actually served in the Soviet Red Army. I believe after his mother was killed in around 1930 and he was eventually rescued, he was sent to some school in USSR for children of revolutionaries. The Chinese encyclopedia page I read said that in the Great Patriotic War he went with the army to Poland and Czech.

    It’s interesting you say this. I just find Russia to be a very rich and culturally diverse place. Slavic, Turkic, Mongolic, Uralic (and also the Evenks and Chukchis, etc). A large Eurasian bridge really and historically has been. It’s much more of accepting of Asians than America. Last few months I also learned of the Russian defense minister Shoygu whose father is a Mongol and was quite surprised. Also the legacy of communist internationalism.

    So Russia really is much more of a “melting pot” than America. What are your thoughts on America’s multiculturalism? What are your thoughts on Russian assimilation into America. And Chinese culture I feel is inclusive too but the range is much smaller, the requirement is more or less that you have to be East Asian passing. Some Chinese immigrant to US from your generation characterized China as “discriminatory” against non Han Chinese whereas America is an open immigrant country. To be fair, that would only come across as weird to people in China.

    I learned a fair bit about Russian history over past year. After freeing itself from Mongol vassalage, that tiny “Grand Duchy of Moscow” eventually expanded to what is huge area of Russia today. Crimean Khanate, Kazan Khanate, exploration of Siberia, also there was war against Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, Sweden, Ottomans. Seems like the culture had the power to assimilate people from the other groups. Mongols on horseback conquered so much territory but their lack of culture meant they assimilated into the culture of people they conquered and eventually they broke up into all those Khanates.

    I see similar in Chinese culture. Even though the Jurchens, Mongols, Manchus conquered parts of China, they eventually Sinicized. Northeast China was a place of nomads and Han Chinese only moved there in large numbers during Qing Dynasty and modern China was able to inherit it. The pure descendants of founders of Han Chinese culture are mostly in Southern China (there were like three major southern migrations), the northern Chinese are a fusion of the original Han Chinese and the nomadic tribes like Xianbei, Donghu, Khitan (I believe китай comes from that), Jurchens, Mongols, Manchus, etc. The Northern Wei dynasty from 4th to 6th century was in northern China was mostly the Xianbei along with other tribes.

    As for inclusiveness, I think Russia has the advantage in its Eurasian-ness. The people are a mixture of Caucasian and Mongoloid. They are right in the middle so it’s hard for anyone to be too out of place. May I ask do you think a white Anglo who’s super Anglo looking could ever assimilate into Russia. How would he be treated there, assuming he was fluent in Russian and acted and thought in a Russian way. I cannot imagine an Anglo ever assimilating into China, not even close. On other hand, East Europeans are much more welcome in China, the way they look their facial features are more compatible with aesthetics of Chinese. It is indeed that Anglos and East Asians are on opposite sides of the spectrum.

    As for Poles, I have virtually zero experience with them. I have interacted with one who came across very anti-Russian. I also heard somebody else characterizing them as very “reactionary.” You know that Grover Furr claims that Katyn was the doing of the Nazis not the NKVD.

    Anyhow, I’ll say that among Chinese, the left wing ones all dislike America and like Russia, the right wing America loving ones pretty much all hate Russia. They think of Russia as this evil big country with so much land that always wants more more more. They think that Russia was much worse to China than Britain/US citing the land grab in Far East (Vladivostok) and Mongolia.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  422. Anon 2 says:
    @AnonFromTN

    Why are Russians moving to Poland?

    Granted, compared to Ukraine, the numbers are relatively small but here’s what
    I’ve noticed:

    1. The Russians might be moving for political reasons, esp. Muscovites.
    Those from provincial Russia may be moving for economic reasons;

    2. Many Russians have some Polish ancestry. They may be able to obtain
    Karta Polaka (Polonian’s Card), and move to Poland to study or work.
    I know 3 people like that, 2 from Moscow and one from SPB;

    3. Russian women occasionally move to Poland to find Polish husbands.
    The latter have acquired a high status vis a vis Russia due to EU passports
    and the recent approval of visa-free travel with America. I know one
    Russian woman from Moscow who married a Polish fellow. They actually
    met in Brazil, and would love to live there. They recently spent 6 months
    working in Seychelles to see how well they can handle life in the tropics.

    Here’s what commonly happens when their friends find out that they are
    moving to Poland: they advise them to avoid speaking Russian in public
    or to admit to being Russian. One Russian woman now living in Warsaw
    said she never once experienced any degree of prejudice on the part of
    the Polish people. She had some friction with the Ukrainians in Poland,
    though.

    I’m sure the Russians know how to behave themselves in Poland. Back
    in the 1890s Bronia Nijinsky (Niżyński), sister of the great Polish ballet
    dancer Vaslav Nijinsky and a famous ballet dancer herself, had a Russian
    suitor in Warsaw. So he took her on a ride in a carriage around Warsaw,
    and said to her, “Warsaw is now Russian,” and pointing to various
    sights he said, “This is ours, and that is ours, etc.” So she dropped him
    like a hot potato. That kind of attitude will not make you a lot of
    friends in Poland.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  423. Mr. Hack says:
    @TheTotallyAnonymous

    What is there to understand about a branch of Russian history? Spare me trying to pretend that Bogdan Khmelnitsky was an “ethnic Ukrainian” and that Kievan Rus was an “ancient Ukrainian state” …

    “Branch of Russian history”?…

    That’s like saying that Serbian history is really a branch of Croatian history, or is it the other way around?? Everybody knows that the Serbian and Croatian languages are virtually indistinguishable, so therefore they must be really the same nationality. These two goups should have stuck it out together within Yugoslavia, and then today there wouldn’t be all of this chaos regarding any “separate nationalities”…

    When Mirko and Slavko still fought on the same side. They should have remained “Yugoslavs” instead of going through a divorce?

  424. Mr. Hack says:
    @AP

    Ultimately I agree with you. But there’s no evidence that when the first colonizing efforts were made from the South to the North that it was very large. Remember, these efforts were led basically by Riurikid outcasts that could not establish patrimonies of their own in the warmer more fertile south.
    The north didn’t really have a good reputation, being sparsely settled by mostly “Chuds” and a few wild Slavs that still clung tenaciously to their pagan beliefs. I think it took a long time for these lands to really fully assume a Slavic character.

  425. @AP

    I understand quite well, seeing how Vojvodina and Montnegro are full of Svidomist idiots who’ve partnered up with Globo Homo and work to (further) destroy Serbia just like they did in the past

    Austria-Hungary was a big regional power in Europe and a sovereign state, while Interrmarium or whatever will likely end up being another American satrap spreading the gospel of Sodomy and Russophobia with Ukranians getting to be the cannon fodder in another pointless war or it will just end up getting split by Germany and Russia like usual

    But hey member STALIN amirite

    • Replies: @TheTotallyAnonymous
  426. @Mr. Hack

    These two goups should have stuck it out together within Yugoslavia, and then today there wouldn’t be all of this chaos regarding any “separate nationalities”…

    I may as well state that Russians and Ukrainians should’ve stuck together within the USSR and that it shouldn’t have collapsed. I assume that you and AP would strongly disagree with this attitude. I think that there is a sizable amount of Russians who would also disagree with this. The dissolving of the USSR and collapse of Yugoslavia were in the long term a good thing in and of themselves, but what was bad about the ending of Yugoslavia and the USSR was the way in which they were undone that has left lots of unfinished business (e.g. mismatches between political and ethnic boundaries).

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  427. @Mr. Hack

    Except Zagreb isn’t called the “Mother of Serbian cities” and wasn’t the founding site of the Serbian Orthodox Church
    And the Rus identity wasn’t a 20th Century creation unlike the Yugoslav one

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  428. @Korenchkin

    I understand quite well, seeing how Vojvodina and Montnegro are full of Svidomist idiots who’ve partnered up with Globo Homo and work to (further) destroy Serbia just like they did in the past

    Just curious, is the issue of Vojvodina separatism in Serbia firmly under control or is it still a serious threat?

    From what I understand, Vojvodina still has substantial autonomy from the rest of Serbia that is completely unnecessary. I could honestly understand it if Hungarians were the ones being hardcore seperatists, but “ethnic Serb” scum like Nenad Čanak are pure cancer ..

    • Replies: @Korenchkin
  429. Gerad1234 says:
    @Dmitry

    President of Latvia is also a Jew….. to go with their American PM!

    There is no doubt no that Ukraine is far more Jewish controlled than Russia and Belarus combined….. and is fully suited to the Jewkraine term

  430. Gerad1234 says:
    @Dmitry

    Solovyov and several other media personalities and pundits are strongly pro-Israel. Ivan Urgant is a dual-Israeli citizen. Rabbi’s are often interviewed, but with pretty much the same frequency as Muslim leaders are. In fact, I would say Putin is the most pro-jew, pro-Muslim and pro-Catholic leader in Russia’s history.

    Ironically, the Autonomous Jewish Oblast was the region last year with the highest economic growth… but this has literally nothing to do with Jewish finance, influence or the low Jewish population there–just a relatively poor region catching up with some belated economic growth

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    , @Denis
  431. AP says:
    @Anon 2

    If we are comparing cities, then Warsaw (a city of 3 million in the metro area), in terms of its GDP (PPP) per capita, is as rich as many cities in W. Europe, and unlike Paris or London it’s clean and safe.

    True.

    However Moscow is even richer than Warsaw, as is evident those (like me) who have been to both cities.

    • Replies: @Denis
  432. AP says:
    @TheTotallyAnonymous

    Would you care to prove how exactly there is a greater difference between Russians and Ukranians than between Spaniards and Catalans?

    Languages more different from each other. Union occurred about 200 years later between Ukraine and Russia than Castille and Cataluna. More wars between Ukraine and Russia than between Cataluna and Spain.

  433. AP says:
    @TheTotallyAnonymous

    Lol. What missiles? If Ukraine does not have nuclear missiles, they are basically useless and can’t effectively threaten Russia.

    https://www.janes.com/article/88065/ukraine-s-neptune-anti-ship-cruise-missile-ready-for-service

    Several large Russian cities are in range of these (mass production has begun).

    As for “nuclear” – there are other nuclear options besides missiles if Ukraine faced existential risk and had nothing to lose. Guess what 1/3 of European Russia is downwind of?

    Would it really be so bloody and expensive? A direct 1v1 between Russia and Ukraine would obviously end in a decisive Russian victory.

    Yes, it would, after a bloody and expensive war. Followed by an occupation where there are 100,000s of trained people.

    It’s possible that Ukraine’s Army could hold for a week or two, certainly not more than a month

    Georgia held out for a week. Ukraine in 2014 maybe wouldn’t last much more than week, back when it had no military.

    A month or two, maybe. It took America more than a month to take Iraq. Currently the disparity between Ukraine and Russia is not like between USA and Iraq. Ukraine’s military is in some respects (short to medium range missiles and rockets) equal to Russia’s, in others a generation behind. Iraq was several generations behind the USA. And Slavs are more stubborn fighters than Arabs.

    This would mean plenty of casualties. And then there would be an occupation of a country with 30+ million people, 100,00s of whom have had military training, with weapons all around.

    Life isn’t a video game 🙂 It would be a bloody and unpleasant mess.

    If no USA, most likely scenario would be some sort of Finlandization of Ukraine. NATO off the table, integration with EU continues. No Russian invasion and forced incorporation of Ukraine into Russia.

    Only feasible possibility would be taking Kharkiv and stopping. Even that would be more bloody than Russians expect. But if Russians were inclined to that sort of thing they would have annexed Donbas by now.

  434. Mr. Hack says:
    @TheTotallyAnonymous

    I may as well state that Russians and Ukrainians should’ve stuck together within the USSR and that it shouldn’t have collapsed.

    Well, isn’t that what you’re in effect saying when you blurt out nonsensical oddities like:

    What is there to understand about a branch of Russian history? Spare me trying to pretend that Bogdan Khmelnitsky was an “ethnic Ukrainian” and that Kievan Rus was an “ancient Ukrainian state”

    Perhaps, AP is right, that you guys on average, have a lower IQ and don’t understand that this kind of garbage is offensive to a Ukrainian? I’ve tried to be more respectful towards you “Balkanoids”, so don’t draw me into a “put down” contest, for you’ll come out the worst for it. 🙂

  435. Mr. Hack says:
    @Korenchkin

    And the Rus identity wasn’t a 20th Century creation unlike the Yugoslav one

    You’re partially right about this one. It was the name of a loose federation of principalities from the 9th to 12th centuries. The ethnonym “Rusyn” was almost exclusively used to identify those from around the Kyiv area. Moscow didn’t appear until the latest part of this period and its denizens were refered to as “Moskali”. Novgorodians also were known as, guess what: “Novgorodians”. Although it could be argued that the idea of a Rus nationality was perhaps in it’s incipient form, it just never really took off, and was thwarted by the Mongol devastation of 1204. An unfufiled pipe dream that really can’t be now completed in the 21st century, I guarantee you. Look at how succesful the attempt to create a new Yugoslav nationality fared in the 20th century? This should be instructive for you.

  436. @Anon 2

    Yes, the concentration of libtards in Moscow is greater than elsewhere in Russia, maybe as high as 10%. In the provinces they’d be lucky to have 1-2% support. So, some libtards might move to Poland for political reasons, although many understand that State Department grants are for those who remain on the battlefield inside Russia, not for those who run away.

    Some Russians might have Polish ancestry, but those are few and far between. Still, even 0.1% of Russian population would amount to 150,000.

    In Russian culture marriage has a huge value, so some Russian women would marry a Martian just to be married. Poland is like a cheap substitute for civilized countries, much better than Nigeria.

    I’ve never been to Poland, so I don’t have first-hand info. The Poles I know in the US (maybe half-a-dozen) don’t seem to be particularly Russophobic. They tend to understand that only Poles and Russians can pronounce their names right, while Anglos inevitably mangle them. From news (which we should take with a grain of salt) it looks like there are strong anti-Ukrainian feelings in Poland, which increased after Polish parliament labeled Volhynia massacre, perpetrated by Ukie nationalists, genocide. Poles do hate Bandera and the flag of his goons, now glorified by the Kiev regime. There are many instances of violent aggression of younger Poles against Ukrainians. Then again, there are probably 100 times more Ukrainians in Poland than Russians, so pure probability would make anti-Ukrainian incidents about 100 times more frequent than anti-Russian. Former Ukrainian MP Zhuravko says that when in Poland, he makes sure that he never speaks Ukrainian (to avoid being beaten up), but speaks Russian w/o any ill effects. Historically, he is known to say some sensible things, but also some idiotic things. So, I don’t know.

  437. @AP

    Just shows that Russia is less tribal and more inclusive that any of the other 14 post-Soviet states. What else is new?

  438. @gmachine1729

    Well, Russians are certainly a lot less tribal than any other nation in post-Soviet space. But that was so even before USSR, in the Empire. It is not because of some special Russian virtue, it was a simple matter of survival. For many centuries Russians lived next to Finno-Ugric, Turkic, as well as various Asian people, including Han Chinese in the Far East. So, they learned to live with them peacefully. It is equally important that those people also learned to live peacefully next to Russians (as opposed to totally incompatible hordes of savages invading Europe). Living peacefully included everyday business and inter-marriage, so most Russians accept everyone as equally human. In that sense Russia (the Empire, the USSR, and Russian Federation now) is more of a melting pot that even the US.

    Still, in the US normal people in academia don’t give a hoot where you are from, they judge you exclusively by your performance. Besides, as the US education system (except some good colleges, that constitute maybe 5-7% of the total) is dismal, the US relied on import of talent for decades. When I came in 1991, most faculty were American-born, but the majority of post-docs were foreign. Now in research-oriented schools at least half of the faculty are foreign-born. It’s the same on NIH study sections. At a recent international meeting among speakers the US scientists were the majority (3 out of 5), and those three were myself, a Polish woman, and a Bulgarian guy.

    BTW, Shoigu is not a Mongol, he is half Russian and half from closely related to Mongols nation, Tuva.

    There are libtards everywhere, including Russia, so China is not unique. Many of their leaders are directly paid by the US, the sheeple in libtard movements are just useful idiots. The catastrophe of 1990-s in Russia clearly shows what happens when this scum comes to power: grand thievery of state assets by local and foreign bastards. It took Russia at least 10 years to mitigate most of the consequences of their rule. China avoided this so far, and will be lucky to avoid it altogether.

  439. melanf says:
    @AP

    So less than 50% of Ukraine’s (10 richest ) billionaires are Jews….

    So fewer than 50% Russian of Russia’s 10 richest oligarchs are ethnic Russians.

    An interesting method of comparison.

  440. Mikel says:

    French and Spaniards are not real Latins. They are just Latinized barbarians with a frequency of Y and mtDNA haplogroups very different from the inhabitants of Lazio, the region where the real Latin language and culture was born.

    French and Spaniards pretending to be Latins just because they adopted a version of the Lazio language after being conquered is similar to Jamaicans pretending to be English.

    I have pictures of French and Central Italian soldiers marching in parades if anyone dares to argue my point.

    • LOL: Denis
    • Replies: @melanf
    , @Simpleguest
    , @Denis
    , @AP
  441. melanf says:
    @Mikel

    I have pictures of French and Central Italian soldiers marching in parades if anyone dares to argue my point.

    And how identical are Central Italian to the ancient Romans? Psychologically, the ancient Romans and the Italians of modern times are complete opposites (Romans-the best soldiers of Europe, almost devoid of scientific and artistic talents; Italians-the worst soldiers of Europe richly endowed with scientific and artistic talents)

    • Replies: @Mikel
  442. Denis says:
    @AP

    You are disingenuous, there is obviously a great difference between people who rebelled against the PLC to join Russia, and the Nazis.

    • Replies: @AP
  443. Gerad1234 says:
    @Anon 2

    Warsaw isn’t even remotely close in living standards to Prague, Budapest, Lljubljana,….not even thinking about all the major Western cities.

    Sorry, but you are talking incorrectly.

    Even now, the Stalinist buildings are the most notable or talked about architecture in the city.

    • Replies: @Anon 2
  444. Denis says:
    @AP

    Hi AP,

    Your argument is mistaken. Although Slavic nations, like all nations, are defined partially by common ancestry, they are obviously not genetically identical. This is because Slavs are an ethnic, linguistic, and cultural group (or set of groups). Saying that Serbs are not Slavs because we are not genetically identical to Ukrainians is like saying that Romanians are not romance people because they are not genetically identical to Umbrians. Furthermore, if you were to take a Ukrainian who was adopted by Americans, carried their last name, and never learned about his/her origins, he/she would obviously not be much of a Slav.

    Under your line of thinking, Turks are not really Turks, Anglo-Saxons are not really anglo or saxon, and French, Romanians, and various groups of Italians are not really latin-Romance peoples. I understand that you choose the comparison to Guatemalans in order to troll, so it doesn’t really matter to you that you are mistaken, but you should still consider that your argument obviously fails.

  445. Denis says:
    @AP

    I know at least a few Russians and Ukrainians who are descended from Tatars and identify themselves as Slavs.

  446. Denis says:
    @AP

    You come across as precisely such a person lol.

  447. Denis says:
    @Mr. Hack

    It’s quite obvious that you haven’t tried to understand it, and know nothing at all about Ukrainian history. But you like to chime in and yap, yap, tap like an ignorant baboon, trying to pose as some sort last minute sage of wisdom.

    You are very hostile with people who have the audacity to disagree with you. If it bothers you so much that people do not have much respect for Ukraine and Ukrainians, you should understand that people who comment on obscure blogs are not the origin of the country’s poor reputation.

    • LOL: Mr. Hack
  448. Denis says:
    @AP

    According to you, less than a 3rd of Ukrainian billionaires are Ukrainians. If this ratio is reflected in the rest of Ukraine’s elite, then that goes a long way to explaining the country’s unfortunate circumstances since 1991.

    Nevertheless, the lists you provide seem to suggest that Russia and Ukraine have this issue in common, although given Russia’s much better circumstances it seems to be less harmful there. The obvious way forward is for Ukrainians and Russians to co-operate in reclaiming control of their homeland.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  449. Mikel says:
    @melanf

    And how identical are Central Italian to the ancient Romans?

    Yes, that is another hole in the narrative about “real/fake” Slavs or Latins.

  450. @Mikel

    “I have pictures of French and Central Italian soldiers marching in parades if anyone dares to argue my point.”

    LOL.Good one.

  451. AP says:
    @Denis

    people who rebelled against the PLC to join Russia

    Joining Russia was not the purpose of their rebellion. They were opposed to the Rus princes who were getting more and more power at their response. They allied with Tatars first, and with Russia only after the Tatars turned out to be poor allies. Russia wasn’t even their first choice.

    • Replies: @Denis
  452. Anon 2 says:
    @Gerad1234

    You obviously never visited Warsaw, at least not recently.
    The only major Stalinist building left is the skyscraper known
    as the Palace of Culture and Science (1955). It looks like
    many Stalinist skyscrapers in Moscow. I kind of like it,
    many people don’t. In the old days on its lower floors
    it housed the Dept. of Mathematics of the University
    of Warsaw, and a gigantic technical bookstore where you
    could get math and science books in Russian at extremely
    low prices. For some reason the young Ukrainian women
    I know love to take pictures in front of the Palace.

    Poland’s GDP (PPP) per capita, at about $34,000, is almost
    as high as that of Czechia (never destroyed in wars), and higher
    than that of Hungary, so Warsaw’s GDP per capita is at least
    $45,000, bringing it to the level of Western Europe.

    One mustn’t forget that Warsaw now houses various institutions
    connected with the EU and NATO, and growing numbers of
    international banks (some are moving there from London in
    anticipation of Brexit). English is widely spoken in Warsaw.
    Foreign dignitaries are not going to move to a city without
    first-rate restaurants and cultural amenities. For example,
    movie theaters in Warsaw have VR shows, which is not
    common in the U.S. yet. One is also struck by the huge number
    of Israeli visitors and Jews from the United States.

    Poland is warmer than Moscow or SPB so that’s one reason to
    move to Poland. The Russian woman, married to a Polish fellow,
    hates Moscow winters and the long subway rides, one reason
    she prefers Poland. But they both want to move to Brazil.
    Russian women, like women everywhere, love love Italy, France,
    and Spain, and prefer warm weather. I forgot to mention she
    has some Polish ancestry. In the 19th century Russia there was
    a saying that if a Russian girl was pretty, she must’ve had a Polish
    grandmother. In general, at this point I’ll grant you though that more
    Ukrainians than Russians have Polish ancestry, and it is young Ukrainian
    women in Poland who increasingly marry Polish men, although I haven’t
    seen any stats on that.

  453. Denis says:
    @Mr. Hack

    Until WWI, Croats and Serbs were only part of the same state when other empires overran both of us. The Croatian and Serbian medieval kingdoms predated Yugoslavia by 1000 years.

    Meanwhile, it is precisely the opposite with Ukrainians and Russians: foreign invasions played a major role in their divergence. Prior to the Mongol invasion, there had already been several periods when the bulk of east Slavs were under one empire. A large chunk of Ukraine’s territory today was only settled due to the Russian empire’s efforts, further emphasizing how tied together the fate of Russians and Ukrainians has been, historically.

    • Replies: @AP
  454. Denis says:
    @AP

    You often don’t directly challenge what I write. It gives our discussions a poor flow. In this case, your comment does not respond to mine, which was referring to your comment about Nazis.

    As for Khmelnytsky, he ultimately signed a treaty with Russia which led Ukraine into the Empire. There is no real way out of that one. It seems that he, and the other Cossacks and Ukrainians in general, realized that the best way to preserve Ukraine was to align themselves with Russia.

    • Replies: @AP
  455. Denis says:
    @AP

    However Moscow is even richer than Warsaw, as is evident those (like me) who have been to both cities.

    I missed a chance to go to Moscow several years ago. I wanted to visit relatives in Western Europe instead. I’m glad I did, but I hope to learn Russian and visit the city one day. Then again, I’d like to see all of Russia and Ukraine, if it were possible.

    • Replies: @AP
  456. Dmitry says:
    @Denis

    Economic comparison between Russia and Ukraine is not useful and kind of silly.

    Russia has the world’s most oil and gas (and many other things), while Ukraine has – coal?Ultimately Russia is rich from natural resources, and economy only accelerates when their prices are high, while Ukraine is in economy situation Russia might be if you removed all oil, gas, minerals, etc (or when the prices in those things collapse as happened in the 1990s).

    It’s like wondering why Yemen (country without oil) is poorer than Saudi Arabia (country with oil).

    That is, until you compare Ukraine’s economic situation with Belarus, Georgia, Moldova and Armenia. These are – other former Soviet Union countries without oil, while being outside of the EU.

    Yet – Belarus, Georgia and Armenia, all have a stronger economy than Ukraine. With Belarus, especially, you can see the economic benefit of political stability.

    • Replies: @Denis
  457. Denis says:
    @Mikel

    I have pictures of French and Central Italian soldiers marching in parades if anyone dares to argue my point.

    Just wait till they see the Romanians and Sicilians!

  458. Denis says:
    @Dmitry

    Yes, I agree. I was only observing the ethnic nature of the two countries’ elites.

  459. AP says:
    @Denis

    As for Khmelnytsky, he ultimately signed a treaty with Russia which led Ukraine into the Empire. There is no real way out of that one. It seems that he, and the other Cossacks and Ukrainians in general, realized that the best way to preserve Ukraine was to align themselves with Russia.

    You realize he had military conflict with Russia over Belarus and at the time of his death was in negotiations with Sweden against Russia, right?

    • Replies: @Denis
    , @Denis
  460. AP says:
    @Denis

    Many other cities have more spectacular natural settings, but as a city itself Moscow is perhaps the best one in the world (at least, the best large one). You should place it at the top of the list of cities to visit.

    • Replies: @Denis
  461. AP says:
    @Denis

    Prior to the Mongol invasion, there had already been several periods when the bulk of east Slavs were under one empire.

    It was a very loose “Empire” ruled by foreigners who had not assimilated in its beginnings. And it was already split into bitterly warring principalities prior to the Mongolian invasion (Kiev was brutally sacked by proto-Russians, proto-Ukrainians in Kiev had an uprising against the installed ruler, etc.). The idea that this was anything resembling a unified nation-state split up by Poles and Mongols is false.

    • Replies: @Denis
  462. AP says:
    @Mikel

    French and Spaniards are not real Latins. They are just Latinized barbarians with a frequency of Y and mtDNA haplogroups very different from the inhabitants of Lazio, the region where the real Latin language and culture was born.

    Do they engage in “Latinphilia” like Serbs do “Slavophilia”? Because that would indeed be ridiculous.

    In English we (correctly) do not generally refer to French or Spaniards as “Latins.” We have “Latin Americans.” Serbs ought to be “Slavic Balkanoids” That would be accurate.

    • Replies: @Denis
    , @Mikel
  463. Denis says:
    @AP

    Do they engage in “Latinphilia” like Serbs do “Slavophilia”? Because that would indeed be ridiculous.

    If by “Latinphilia” you mean “speaking a Romance language”, then yes they do.

    We have “Latin Americans.”

    They are obvious called Latin Americans because of the romance language they speak, not because anyone confused them with Romans.

    • Replies: @AP
  464. Denis says:
    @AP

    Again you do not contradict my comment but merely introduce a red-herring. I never claimed that there was a unified nation-state.

    • Replies: @AP
  465. Denis says:
    @AP

    I most certainly will. I will try to get a nice long vacation period at some point so that I can take my time and explore around.

    By any chance, would you recommend Kiev?

    • Replies: @AP
  466. Denis says:
    @AP

    You realize he had military conflict with Russia over Belarus and at the time of his death was in negotiations with Sweden against Russia, right?

    According to these, the negotiations with Sweden seemed to be directed primarily against Poland. I can’t find any source saying that he conspired with Sweden against Russia. Would you provide one?

    http://www.encyclopediaofukraine.com/display.asp?AddButton=pages%5CK%5CH%5CKhmelnytskyBohdan.htm

    https://varldsinbordeskriget.wordpress.com/2016/05/28/gustaf-lilliecrona-the-first-swedish-ambassador-to-denmark-to-reside-in-copenhagen/

    Regardless, as I believe I said before, I have no opinion on the motivations or ambitions of Khmelnytsky, and those are irrelevant to my point that the rebellion against Poland resulted in Ukrainian alignment with Russia. You seem to argue that it was not truly pro-Russian, but it speaks volumes that after rebelling against Polish oppression, the ultimate outcome was that the rebels sought Russian patronage, and ended up setting the stage for Ukraine’s integration into the empire.

  467. Denis says:
    @AP

    You realize he had military conflict with Russia over Belarus and at the time of his death was in negotiations with Sweden against Russia, right?

    According to these, the negotiations with Sweden seemed to be directed primarily against Poland. I can’t find any source saying that he conspired with Sweden against Russia. Would you provide one?

    http://www.encyclopediaofukraine.com/display.asp?AddButton=pages%5CK%5CH%5CKhmelnytskyBohdan.htm

    https://varldsinbordeskriget.wordpress.com/2016/05/28/gustaf-lilliecrona-the-first-swedish-ambassador-to-denmark-to-reside-in-copenhagen/

    Regardless, as I believe I said before, I have no opinion on the motivations or ambitions of Khmelnytsky, and those are irrelevant to my point that the rebellion against Poland resulted in Ukrainian alignment with Russia. You seem to argue that it was not truly pro-Russian, but it speaks volumes that after rebelling against Polish oppression, the ultimate outcome was that the rebels sought Russian patronage, and ended up setting the stage for Ukraine’s integration into the empire.

    • Replies: @AP
  468. Dmitry says:
    @Gerad1234

    I notice Sergey Pashkov does not disguise his love of Israel, even though he is very professional.

    I found his wife is an Israeli television presenter, who is one of the main presenters of news in Israel.

    Nonetheless, you can see in Facebook, Sergey Pashkov and wife, are a very cosmopolitan, objective, people.

    If you look at the family in Facebook, you can see from the school clothes, that they place their children to an Arab Christian school in Yafo (where they will study in Hebrew, Arabic, maybe English).

    А мы впереди планеты всей! В нашей школе учебный год начали почему-то сегодня. А значит, лето наше официально…

    Posted by Aliya Sudakova on Thursday, August 29, 2019

    dual-Israeli citizen.

    Because there will be far more career possibilities (in media) in Russia, so it is inevitable Israeli dual citizens work in Russia, instead of a small provincial market (Israel) for their media career.

    For example Elena Lander.

    This was the presenter of news in Israel, with this depressing morning job (that Pashkov’s wife has now).

    She is now presenter of Morning Russia instead, which is obviously an amazing upgrade of career.

    And the job in Russia still includes going to Israel

  469. Denis says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    Hi Anatoly,

    Sorry about the double post, that was an accident. Would you please delete comment # 480?

  470. Denis says:
    @Gerad1234

    In fact, I would say Putin is the most pro-jew, pro-Muslim and pro-Catholic leader in Russia’s history.

    Indeed. It is kind of amazing that he has been transformed into Literally Hitler in English language media.

  471. Anon 2 says:

    The Nobel committee will award two Nobel Prizes in Literature this
    year. Among the candidates are (1) Olga Tokarczuk (Poland), winner
    of the Man Booker International Prize, (2) Elena Poniatowska (Mexico),
    born in France and distantly related to the last Polish king Stanisław
    Poniatowski

  472. Mikel says:
    @AP

    Do they engage in “Latinphilia” like Serbs do “Slavophilia”? Because that would indeed be ridiculous.

    That has nothing to do with my point but I think that many of them nowadays rather engage in Islamophilia, LGBT-philia and similar modern tendencies.

    However, I have no idea why you say that it would be “ridiculous” if they opted to engage in the cultivation of their ancient linguistic and cultural roots (?).

    As a matter of fact, the reason why, as you say, English speakers (incorrectly) refer to Americans south of the Rio Grande as Latin Americans is because at some point in time the French strong official position was that they also were Romance-speakers and had some (tiny) possessions in the Americas. Hispanic Americans or, if we want to be precise, Ibero Americans, would be more appropriate. After all, the Dutch and the British also have a few small enclaves in those latitudes.

    • Replies: @AP
  473. AP says:
    @Denis

    According to these, the negotiations with Sweden seemed to be directed primarily against Poland. I can’t find any source saying that he conspired with Sweden against Russia. Would you provide one?

    https://www.britannica.com/biography/Bohdan-Khmelnytsky

    “Khmelnytsky, not content with his pact with Alexis, entered into secret negotiations with Sweden, which was also at war with Poland. He was about to conclude a treaty with the Swedes, placing the Cossacks under Swedish rule, when he died.”

    Khmelnytsky died in 1657. Note that Sweden and Russia were at war at the time:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russo-Swedish_War_(1656%E2%80%931658)

    So he was in secret negotiations with a country at war with Russia, to place himself under that country. It was just like what Mazepa would later do.

    You seem to argue that it was not truly pro-Russian, but it speaks volumes that after rebelling against Polish oppression, the ultimate outcome was that the rebels sought Russian patronage

    Ultimate outcomes don’t speak to motivation. Ultimate outcome of German invasion of Russia was Russian troops in Berlin. Did that make Hitler pro-Russian?

    Facts are that Khmelnytsky allied with Tatars before Russians, approached Russians only when Tatars failed him, while in alliance with Russians struggled against them over Belarus, and was about to place himself under the Swedish king, at was with Russia, when he died. This is not a pro-Russian.

    • Replies: @Denis
  474. AP says:
    @Denis

    By any chance, would you recommend Kiev?

    If you are interested in political and historical events in Eastern Europe it is worth seeing. Talk to locals, see how it is. It will cure you of Russian propaganda about the place. Purely as a tourist destination, it can’t compare to Moscow or St. Petersburg. Probably 3 days worth of sights (Monastery of the Caves, St. Sophia, some central neighborhoods, beaches on the Dnipro in summer, there is also a fantastic church whose icons were painted by Vrubel). It is a pleasant place to be, green, some hills, nice atmosphere. friends form Moscow used to hang out there until 2014 (it had a good music scene), when the locals they thought were friends wanted nothing more to do with any Russians.

    • Replies: @Denis
  475. AP says:
    @Mikel

    As a matter of fact, the reason why, as you say, English speakers (incorrectly) refer to Americans south of the Rio Grande as Latin Americans is because at some point in time the French strong official position was that they also were Romance-speakers and had some (tiny) possessions in the Americas.

    Americans don’t refer to French or French-speakers as Latin Americans. Nor Guyanese or other non-Iberian speakers.

    • Agree: RadicalCenter
    • Replies: @Denis
  476. AP says:
    @Denis

    Again you do not contradict my comment but merely introduce a red-herring. I never claimed that there was a unified nation-state.

    Something of the sort was implied when you wrote “Prior to the Mongol invasion, there had already been several periods when the bulk of east Slavs were under one empire.”

    Much of Serbia including Belgrade was once part of the Bulgarian Empire, does that imply the two countries should be united? I don’t think so.

    • Agree: Mr. Hack
    • Disagree: Denis
    • Replies: @Denis
  477. AP says:
    @Denis

    Do they engage in “Latinphilia” like Serbs do “Slavophilia”? Because that would indeed be ridiculous.

    If by “Latinphilia” you mean “speaking a Romance language”, then yes they do.

    They don’t engage in “pan-Latinism” and view themselves as some sort of brothers of the Italians as Serbs do for Russians. Also I suspect that the French (not those from Breton lands of course) are more Latin than Serbs are Slavic.

    • Replies: @Denis
  478. Denis says:
    @AP

    Ultimate outcomes don’t speak to motivation. Ultimate outcome of German invasion of Russia was Russian troops in Berlin. Did that make Hitler pro-Russian?

    As I stated before, this comparison does not make any sense.

    Facts are that Khmelnytsky allied with Tatars before Russians, approached Russians only when Tatars failed him, while in alliance with Russians struggled against them over Belarus, and was about to place himself under the Swedish king, at was with Russia, when he died. This is not a pro-Russian.

    As I stated before, his own personal motivations are irrelevant to the point I have made, I know better than to consider any individual an avatar for millions. Thus, the salient fact remains that an anti-polish rebellion resulted in Ukraine re-aligning with Russia, ultimately integrating with it.

    That said, Khmelnytsky was clearly pursuing autonomy, and it is hardly inconceivable that had he lived further, due to Sweden’s inability to project power that far into the heartland, he would have been reconciled to Russia.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  479. Denis says:
    @AP

    Something of the sort was implied when you wrote “Prior to the Mongol invasion, there had already been several periods when the bulk of east Slavs were under one empire.”

    If you want to read it that way.

    Much of Serbia including Belgrade was once part of the Bulgarian Empire, does that imply the two countries should be united? I don’t think so.

    Why don’t you ask Bulgarians? Personally I think it would be a disaster and would oppose it for that reason, but I don’t have any kind of moral or ideological opposition to Bulgarians, whom I like. Bulgarians, on the other hand, would probably be revolted by the idea. FTR, Tito apparently wanted to do something like that. Also, if Serbia does join the European Union, after all, we will both be subjects of the same empire again, so there’s that.

    That said, this is both a red herring and a false analogy. The last time Bulgaria ruled Serbia was during the 13-14th century. The common origin of Ukrainians and Russians, on the other hand, laid the foundations for a series of states under which they were united as recently as 30 years ago. No such history exists for Serbs and Bulgarians.

    • Replies: @AP
  480. Denis says:
    @AP

    They don’t engage in “pan-Latinism” and view themselves as some sort of brothers of the Italians as Serbs do for Russians.

    Well, Russians fought in like a dozen wars alongside us, supporting us to this day in the face of aggressors, and it’s distinctly possible that if it weren’t for them, we wouldn’t exist today. Maybe that’s the reason we are fond of them? So far as I know, the French have no such friendly history with Italians. The fact that we (Russians and Serbs) are both Slavs is the icing on the cake!

    That said, the French founded a multinational economic and political confederation with Italy, complete with a common parliament something that Serbia has never done with Russia. There is more pan-whatever in the modern European Union than there ever was in practice between the Serbian and Russian states, which were “only” allies.

    Also I suspect that the French (not those from Breton lands of course) are more Latin than Serbs are Slavic.

    By this, I assume you mean that the French are more closely related to the ancient Romans than Serbs are to ancient East Slavs? I highly doubt any nation can trace “most” of their ancestry to the inceptors of the Latin language.

    Not that it really matters. Most of the French will eventually be related to the prophet Mohammed the way things are going.

  481. Denis says:
    @AP

    I happen to enjoy green spaces. It sounds like my kind of city. I would go there to take the country in though, not to compare it to Russia for the sake of politics lol.

    Actually, all of Ukraine looks quite beautiful in the pictures. I hope I’ll be lucky enough to explore the country someday.

  482. Mr. Hack says:
    @Denis

    Thus, the salient fact remains that an anti-polish rebellion resulted in Ukraine re-aligning with Russia, ultimately integrating with it.

    Yes, but at whatcost? It seems that you try to make it sound that it was some kind of union built on trust and respct, when in effect it was a situation where Ukrainians lost any sense of autonomy and went down bloodied and forced to play a subservient role. Witness the savage destruction of the former capitol of the Hemanate, Baturyn in 1708 and the equally garish destructino of the Zaporoazhian Sich in 1775. A long period of darkness and poverty eneveloped Ukraine, and not much, really, can be pointed too as being looked upon as progress ensued from this unequal relationship.

    It wasn’t just Khmelnitsky’s alliance with Russia that was of a dubious nature. Khmelnitsky’s eventual successor Hetman Ivan Vyhovsky led a a successful coolition of Ukrainians, Poles, Tatars and even Serbs that inflicted a serious blow to the military might of the Russian forces:

    The hetman not only managed to organize his own troops, but secured support of his allies — the Crimean Tatars and the Poles. By agreement with the Tatars, the Khan Mehmed IV Giray, at the head of his 30,000-strong army, made his way towards Konotop in early summer of 1659, as did the 4000-man Polish detachment with the support of Serbian, Moldavian and German mercenaries.

  483. Denis says:
    @AP

    Apparently, when Latin America arose in terminology, it did at times include the French-speaking parts of the Americas.

  484. melanf says:

    Khmelnitsky’s eventual successor Hetman Ivan Vyhovsky led a a successful coolition of Ukrainians, Poles, Tatars and even Serbs that inflicted a serious blow to the military might of the Russian forces

    Funny joke.
    For those who do not know Ukrainian history explain – Vyhovsky decided (during the war) to go to the side of Poland. However, his treason led to the split of Ukraine (as it did not find the support of the population). Vyhovsky some time played a pathetic role of the Polish puppet (“successful coolition “), but then (in 1664) poles executed Vyhovsky as the traitor.

  485. Epigon says:

    In 1807 Serb uprising against Ottomans, the Serb rebels and their leaders headed by Đorđe Petrović/Karađorđe received funds, weapons, cannons and a 1000 Russian regulars, in addition to general Isaev commanding alongside Karađorđe from the start.

    Their desire? Liberated Serbia to become a PROVINCE of Russian Empire. That much is outlined in a convention between Karađorđe and marquis Paulucci.

    Russian reply?
    Serbia an independent nation under Russian protection. A policy which remained the same thoughout the next 100 years. Unfortunately, it turns out it was a mistake with terrible consequences for everyone.

  486. @TheTotallyAnonymous

    It is under control, the Hungarian issue in particular was handled well after Vucic turned them over to his side and broke their alliance with the Croats
    But I have no doubt that some Atlanticist or Intermarrium fetishist wouldn’t try to turn it into a real problem if Serbia were once again enter into crisis

  487. AP says:
    @Denis

    That said, this is both a red herring and a false analogy. The last time Bulgaria ruled Serbia was during the 13-14th century.

    Well, this was 300 years later than when Rus state split apart in the 12th century.

    Would Bulgarian rule over over Serbia in the 14th century justify Bulgarian annexation of Serbia in the 19th century?

    laid the foundations for a series of states under which they were united as recently as 30 years ago

    And if Bulgaria captured Serbia in the 19th century and ruled it until 30 years ago would you support another annexation?

  488. Epigon says:

    Modern-day Serbia was not early Medieval Serbia. The area around Danube and Morava rivers was not settled by Serbs, but by closely related tribes such as Timoscani, Guduscani, Branicevci/Praedenecenti etc. which were subjugated by Bulgarians early and the last time Bulgarians ruled it was in 1290, when they were expelled once and for all.

    It would be best if the discussion of the past/history was discontinued, even though I started the last round.

    A far more interesting subject would be immediate and intermediate future of UA, UA-RF relations, Donbass conflict outcome and predicting economic performance of UA over the next few years.

    In addition, outlining the scenario in which UA ensures its existence against the hypothetical USA retreat from EE and SEE.

    The recently published plan on eliminating every single minority language education schools by 2023, starting with Russian in 2020 is sure to further antagonise the neighbouring people.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  489. Mr. Hack says:
    @melanf

    The “sucessful coolition” was a direct referenct to Vyhovsky’s victory at Konotop over a large Muscovite army. Was Bohdan’s own son Yuri Khmelnitsky really any more true to your own interpretation of the Treaty of Pereyeslav? – don’t make me laugh. Ukraine was unfortunately a crossroads between Polish and Russian interests for a long time that was historically aptly termed “the time of the great ruin”. The Crimean Khanate was never a reliable ally either.

  490. Mr. Hack says:
    @melanf

    The “sucessful coolition” was a direct referenct to Vyhovsky’s victory at Konotop over a large Muscovite army. Was Bohdan’s own son Yuri Khmelnitsky really any more true to your own interpretation of the Treaty of Pereyeslav? – don’t make me laugh. Ukraine was unfortunately a crossroads between Polish and Russian interests for a long time that was historically aptly termed “the time of the great ruin”. The Crimean Khanate was never a reliable ally either.

  491. Mr. Hack says:
    @melanf

    The “sucessful coolition” was a direct referenct to Vyhovsky’s victory at Konotop over a large Muscovite army. Was Bohdan’s own son Yuri Khmelnitsky really any more true to your own interpretation of the Treaty of Pereyeslav? – don’t make me laugh. Ukraine was unfortunately a crossroads between Polish and Russian interests for a long time that was historically aptly termed “the time of the great ruin”. The Crimean Khanate was never a reliable ally either.

  492. Mr. Hack says:
    @melanf

    The “sucessful coolition” was a direct reference to Vyhovsky’s victory at Konotop over a large Muscovite army. Was Bohdan’s own son Yuri Khmelnitsky really any more true to your own interpretation of the Treaty of Pereyeslav? – don’t make me laugh. Ukraine was unfortunately a crossroads between Polish and Russian interests for a long time that was historically aptly termed “the time of the great ruin”. The Crimean Khanate was never a reliable ally either.

  493. Mr. Hack says:
    @melanf

    The “sucessful coolition” was a direct reference to Vyhovsky’s victory at Konotop over a large Muscovite army. Was Bohdan’s own son Yuri Khmelnitsky really any more true to your own interpretation of the Treaty of Pereyeslav? – don’t make me laugh. Ukraine was unfortunately a crossroads between Polish and Russian interests for a long time that was historically aptly termed “the time of the great ruin”. The Crimean Khanate was never a reliable ally either.

  494. Mr. Hack says:
    @melanf

    The “sucessful coolition” was a direct reference to Vyhovsky’s victory at Konotop over a large Muscovite army. Was Bohdan’s own son Yuri Khmelnitsky really any more true to your own interpretation of the Treaty of Pereyeslav? – don’t make me laugh. Ukraine was unfortunately a crossroads between Polish and Russian interests for a long time that was historically aptly termed “the time of the great ruin”. The Crimean Khanate was never a reliable ally either.

    • Replies: @melanf
  495. Mr. Hack says:

    Sorry for the duplicate comments – I’m having some computer issues when trying to post comments within this very long thread!

  496. melanf says:
    @Mr. Hack

    The “sucessful coolition” was a direct reference to Vyhovsky’s victory at Konotop over a large Muscovite army.

    Funny joke.
    “Vyhovsky’s victory at Konotop” was a victory of the Crimean Tatar army (with auxiliary detachments of Poles and Cossacks of Vyhovsky) over a small “Muscovite army”. “Muscovite army” lost 4 679 people. Almost the only result of this “grandiose” victory (won by the Tatars) was the subsequent capture by the Tatars of 25,000 peasants (mostly Ukrainians) whom the Tatars sold into slavery. Vyhovsky after a battle lost all remnants of influence in Ukraine and fled to Poland land (where he was later executed as a traitor).

    • Replies: @AP
  497. Dmitry says:
    @Epigon

    single minority language education

    It has already happened since September 2018 that they de facto were supposed to teach only in Ukrainian language.

    Just in September 2020 is the “final date” for complete change away from Russian.

    Can you imagine how much disruption for the education of children, or for the work of teachers (who already have a difficult job and low salary)?

    For example, teachers in Kharkov will be fined by court if they communicate with students in Russian. Moreover, even in telephone conversations with parents of students, they will only be allowed to communicate in Ukrainian.

    • Replies: @Epigon
  498. Epigon says:
    @Dmitry

    I wonder if there was some other state which tried imposing an artificial, recently codified language upon people speaking regional, historical dialects… which backfired horribly.

    • Replies: @AP
    , @Dmitry
  499. @Korenchkin

    I’d guess that if the EU still exists in thirty years, it will be Muslim-dominated and majority non-european. Such an Islamic EU may be glad to admit both Ukraine and Serbia in order to more readily add their genes, land, and resources to the Islamic expansion project.

    Ukraine and Serbia look likely to be terribly depopulated, with old, dwindling, and insignificant demoralized populations by then. Who knows whether the 15-20 million people living in the Ukraine by then will want to join the Islamic EU. Presumably not, but then, western and Northern Europeans weren’t given a direct clear voice in their own fate either.

  500. AP says:
    @Epigon

    Language policy isn’t unpopular in Ukraine (even among Russian speakers), Ukrainian language is neither artificial nor recently codified. This is more of an issue for consumption by Russian nationalists outside Ukraine than for people in the country.

    • Replies: @Epigon
  501. AP says:
    @melanf

    While Tatars outnumbered Vyhovsky’s forces, Vyhovsky’s forces did the brunt of the fighting. They were the ones who had withstood the siege and the ones who initiated the assault.

    The loss of nearly 5000 men was about 4% of the total Muscovite military. Several Muscovite princes were captured. Your minimization isn’t much better than others’ exaggeration.

    • Agree: Mr. Hack
    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    , @melanf
  502. Epigon says:
    @AP

    Official Ukrainian at present, just like official Russian in 19th century, present artificial, recently codified languages at odds with regional, historical dialects. The same for Hochdeutsch in the context of Germany.
    If that were not the case, there would be much more content and communication in Ukrainian. Don’t want to deviate the thread into more historical and linguistic bickering.

    I am not sure where did you get the data on popularity of such policies, especially among UA minorities, and how unbiased and reliable that data is.

    It remains to be seen how UA’s immediate NATO neighbours Hungary and Romania will perceive it, not to mention EU – minority rights and non-discrimination are in theory a large part of EU’s policies. Even Croats have to submit to them, though extremely grudgingly and with constant outbursts.

    • Replies: @AP
  503. Mr. Hack says:
    @AP

    It wasn’t just a few “princes” that were captured but the “flower of the Russian cavalry” too as lamented by the 19th century Russian historian Soloviev:

    The bloom of Moscow’s cavalry, troops that happily accomplished campaigns of year 54 and 55 have perished in one day — the victors got only about 5000 captive. The unfortunate were led onto an open space and slaughtered like lambs — that was the agreement between the Crimean Khan and the hetman of the Zaporozhian Cossacks! Never again was the tsar of Moscow able to master an army that strong.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Konotop

    For a more balanced review of the Battle of Konotop, I highly recommend Serhii Plohy’s review of a symposium held in Italy dedicated to this historical battle:

    https://books.openedition.org/ledizioni/374

    • Replies: @melanf
    , @AP
  504. melanf says:
    @AP

    While Tatars outnumbered Vyhovsky’s forces, Vyhovsky’s forces did the brunt of the fighting

    .

    No it’s nonsense. All known from documents Russian nobility captured at Konotop were captured by the Tatars. This clearly shows the worthless role of the Vygovskys Cossacks .

    • Replies: @AP
  505. melanf says:
    @Mr. Hack

    It wasn’t just a few “princes” that were captured but the “flower of the Russian cavalry” too as lamented by the 19th century Russian historian Soloviev:

    This data is long out of date. In the battle of Konotop were killed a lot of aristocrats, but the military value of the “knightly” cavalry in the 17th century quickly tends to zero. The scale of the battle (as historians found out after Solovyov) were not great, and the significance of this battle was quite insignificant. For the Tatars it was a success (they captured a lot of slaves in Ukraine), but Vygovsky eventually eventually became a total loser..

  506. AP says:
    @melanf

    No, it’s a fact that Cossacks withstood the siege for 70 days and counterattacked and that under Vyhovsky the initial assault came.

    The Muscovite princes were captured by the Tatars when they got bogged down during the retreat.

    • Replies: @melanf
  507. AP says:
    @Mr. Hack

    Soloviov’s descriptions have been debunked. However on this and other topics melanf takes frequently incorrect tendentious approach (see his discussions with the Finnish poster)

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  508. Mr. Hack says:
    @AP

    You shouldn’t have the same problem with Plokhy’s review of these events…

    Even if Soloviev’s descriptioon of the factual losses were overblown, the sentiments at the Russian court must have been quiet low for him to write such a tragic version.

    • Replies: @AP
  509. melanf says:
    @AP

    No, it’s a fact that Cossacks withstood the siege for 70 days

    That’s right. And those same troops who withstood the siege (Nezhinsky regiment) soon after the battle of Konotop rebelled against Vygovsky and went over to the side of Moscow.

    The Muscovite princes were captured by the Tatars when they got bogged down during the retreat.

    This happened when the detachment of Prince Semyon Pozharsky was ambushed, surrounded by the Crimean Tatar army. At Konotop the victory was won by the Tatars, and the Vygovskys Cossacks played a minor role.

    • Replies: @AP
  510. AP says:
    @Epigon

    Official Ukrainian at present, just like official Russian in 19th century, present artificial, recently codified languages at odds with regional, historical dialects.

    How so? Language was originally codified int he 19th century, with revisions in the early 20th century. Current version IIRC is from the early 1930s.

    If that were not the case, there would be much more content and communication in Ukrainian

    Urban Ukrainians from the pre-1939 territories are mostly Russian-speaking. Their cousins in the villages speak Ukrainian. Even in place like Kharkiv oblast.

    I am not sure where did you get the data on popularity of such policies, especially among UA minorities, and how unbiased and reliable that data is.

    Russian-speaking people in Kiev (most of Kiev’s population) overwhelmingly support Ukrainian language policies.

    Otherwise the issue is rather remote on people’s minds.

    Here is a poll about what Ukraine’s citizens want with language in schools:

    http://www.kiis.com.ua/?lang=eng&cat=reports&id=832&t=10&page=1

    Preferred status for Russian language:

    30% want Russian to be equal to Ukrainian
    26% want Russian to be taught more than other non-Ukrainian languages but less than Ukrainian
    25% want it to be like any other foreign language (French, German, etc.)
    8% want it banned completely in schools

    Overall the issue has not been important to people in Ukraine. This poll in 2010 showed only 5% of people cared about Russian having some sort of official status in Ukraine:

    https://web.archive.org/web/20100414143601/http://life.pravda.com.ua/problem/4bc31444820e5/

    Generally speaking, the plight of the Russian language is a concern for some small marginal groups of activists and for people outside Ukraine.

    It remains to be seen how UA’s immediate NATO neighbours Hungary and Romania will perceive it, not to mention EU – minority rights and non-discrimination are in theory a large part of EU’s policies.

    Ask the Balts.

    If Ukrainians were smart they would provide loopholes for the Hungarian minority that wouldn’t affect the plans for the Russian language. There would be no problems from the EU, in that case.

  511. AP says:
    @melanf

    “No, it’s a fact that Cossacks withstood the siege for 70 days”

    That’s right. And those same troops who withstood the siege (Nezhinsky regiment) soon after the battle of Konotop rebelled against Vygovsky and went over to the side of Moscow.

    Correct. They didn’t like Vyhovsky’s elitism and switched sides after they helped rive the Muscovites out of Ukraine.

    The Muscovite princes were captured by the Tatars when they got bogged down during the retreat.

    This happened when the detachment of Prince Semyon Pozharsky was ambushed, surrounded by the Crimean Tatar army. At Konotop the victory was won by the Tatars, and the Vygovskys Cossacks played a minor role.

    There were 30,000 Tatar troops and 16,000 Ukrainian ones (and 2,000 mercenaries).

    The besieged Ukrainian s withstood the siege on their fortress, counterattacked and forced the Muscovites to divide their army.

    As for the battle itself (I am removing outdated info from Soloviov that magnified Russian losses):

    By 24 June 1659 Vyhovsky and his allies approached the area and defeated a small reconnaissance detachment of the invader’s army near the village of Shapovalivka, several kilometers south-west of Konotop. According to the plan made that evening, the 30,000 Tatars were left in an ambush south-east of the river Sosnivka, and Vyhovsky’s forces with Poles and mercenaries were positioned at the village of Sosnivka, south of the river with the same name.[34]

    Meanwhile, Vyhovsky left the command of his forces to the brother of Hryhoriy Hulyanytsky, Stepan Hulyanytsky, and at the head of a small Cossack detachment left for Konotop.[30] Early on the morning of 27 June 1659, Vyhovsky’s detachment attacked Trubetskoy’s army near Konotop, and using this sudden and unexpected attack managed to capture a sizable number of the enemy’s horses and drive them away and further into the steppe.[34] The enemy counterattacked, and Vyhovsky retreated across the bridge to the other bank of the Sosnivka river in the direction of his camp.[30] Having learned of the assault, Prince Trubetskoy dispatched a detachment of 4,000 men noble cavalry and 2,000 Bezpalyi Cossacks led by Prince Semen Pozharsky across the river to pursue Ivan Vyhovsky.[28][29][31][35] Trubetskoy’s forces were thus divided between this detachment and those besieging Konotop.

    On 28 June 1659 Prince Semen Pozharsky, in his pursuit of the Cossacks, crossed the river Sosnivka and made his camp on the southern bank of the river. During the night a small Cossack detachment led by Stepan Hulyanytsky, having padded the hoofs of their horses with cloth, stole under the cover of night behind the enemy lines and captured the bridge that Pozharsky had used to cross the river. The bridge was dismantled and the river dammed, thus flooding the valley around it.

    Early on the morning of 29 June 1659 Vyhovsky, at the head of a small detachment, attacked Prince Pozharsky’s army. After a little skirmish, he started to retreat, feigning a disorganized flight in the direction of his main forces. The unsuspecting Pozharsky ordered his army to pursue the enemy. Once the enemy’s army entered Sosnivka, the Cossacks fired three cannon shots to give the signal to the Tatars and counterattacked with all the forces stationed at Sosnivka. Having discovered the trap, Prince Semen Pozharsky ordered retreat; but his heavy cavalry got bogged down in the soggy ground created from the flooding the night before. At this moment the Tatars also advanced from the eastern flank, and the outright slaughter ensued. Almost all troops perished, with few of them captured alive. Among the captured were Prince Semen Romanovich Pozharsky himself, Prince Semen Petrovich Lvov, both Princes Buturlins, Prince Lyapunov, Prince Skuratov, Prince Kurakin and others. A relative of the Great Liberator of Moscow from the Poles, Dmitry Pozharsky, Prince Semen Romanovich Pozharsky was brought before the Khan of Crimea Mehmed IV Giray. Being forced to carry out acts of submissiveness Pozharsky insulted the Khan and spat in his face.[30] For that he was promptly beheaded by the Tatars, and his severed head was dispatched with one of the captives to Prince Trubetskoy’s camp.

    Having learned about the defeat of Pozharsky’s army, Trubetskoy ordered the siege of Konotop lifted and started his retreat from Ukraine. At that moment the Cossacks of Hulyanytsky inside the fortress emerged from behind the walls and attacked the retreating army. Trubetskoy lost, in addition, most of his artillery, his military banners and the treasury.

    ::::::::::::::::::

    So you were wrong when you claimed the Ukrainians only played an auxiliary role and that this was basically a Tatar battle.

    • Replies: @melanf
  512. AP says:
    @Mr. Hack

    Well, a lot of princes were captured, and 4% of the military was destroyed in one battle.

    4% destroyed in a single battle is a lot.

    For example, the Third Battle of Kharkov resulted in 45,000 dead Soviet soldiers. That was only .65% of the Soviet army at the time.

  513. melanf says:
    @AP

    As for the battle itself (I am removing outdated info from Soloviov that magnified Russian losses):

    By 24 June 1659

    As I’ve said many times, it’s a dump.
    According to available sources, the victory was won almost entirely by the Tatars, and the tales about Gulyanitsky’s sortie and the dammed river are inventions (“the Version about the role in the battle…Colonel Gulyanitsky (flooding of the battlefield by the means of the dam) has long been rejected as untenable….. Colonel Ivan Gulyanitsky in any document relating to the battle is not mentioned” Бабулин Ответ рецензенту)

    I will clarify, that Colonel Ivan Gulyanitsky existed, but is not mentioned in the documents relating to the battle. But Stefan Gulyanitsky (from a garbage Wikipedia article) at all unknown in sources and is just a fake persona

    • Replies: @AP
  514. Dmitry says:
    @Epigon

    Main problem, is that millions of peoples’ lives- including childrens’ education – is disrupted, for this nonsense, to comply with the vanity of some nationalists and politicians.

    But the separate question of how “effective” this will be in terms of Ukrainization of the populations and long-term language trends?

    This kind of forced language suppression, can sometimes have a bit of a pendulum effect.

    For example, Franco has forced Catalans and Basques to only speak Spanish. But it had a pendulum effect, and many decades later those languages very promoted, partly as reaction to their earlier suppression.

    It’s possible to switch peoples’ languages (immigrants’ children can do all the time). But trying to force language switch through without the consent of the population, will result in many people then feeling more importance to their native language and its preservation than before.

    • Replies: @AP
  515. AP says:
    @Dmitry

    For example, Franco has forced Catalans and Basques to only speak Spanish.

    Totally different situation. Most of the Russian-speakers in (current) Ukraine are ethnic Ukrainians. Ukrainians what their grandparents spoke, and what their cousins in the villages still speak. It is not an alien language of occupiers.

    The only regions where there was an actual Russian population majority were Crimea and urban Donbas.

    It’s possible to switch peoples’ languages (immigrants’ children can do all the time). But trying to force language switch through without the consent of the population,

    More Ukrainians support this than oppose it. Regions where there was stronger opposition are no longer in Ukraine. This is a non-issue, for marginals.

  516. AP says:
    @melanf

    As I’ve said many times, it’s a dump.

    Well, we can believe you (who are typically wrong when discussing things outside Russia, whether it be Ukraine or Finland/Sweden) are various encyclopedias.

    • Replies: @melanf
  517. melanf says:
    @AP

    when discussing things outside Russia, whether it be Ukraine or Finland/Sweden

    I’m curious when I was discussing things in Finland/Sweden? I can’t remember such a case

    • Replies: @AP
  518. AP says:
    @melanf

    Jaakko was always correcting you.

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