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Generation Zyklon in Sweden
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Commenter Betlo alerts us to an interesting development in Sweden.

  • In a recent school election, the Sweden Democrats got 57% of the vote, in the largest secondary school of Kristianstad Municipality.
  • The neoliberal but moderately anti-immigration Moderate Party came second, with 19%.
  • “Peer pressure” is cited as one explanation, though according to one pupil, a teacher threatened them with lower grades if they didn’t vote the right way.
  • The pupils’ demand for a debate about gender equality and refugee policy was denied.

It would be funny if Sweden was to go straight from Sweden Yes to Sweden Über Alles.

I wonder to what extent Generation Zyklon is a widespread phenomenon beyond just the US. Since the political correctness ideology is pretty universal to the Western world, and American and European teens alike listen to the same racist gamers and tussle together on /pol/, it stands to reason that the demographics of the rebellion will be analogous.

 
• Category: Ideology • Tags: Alt Right, Demographics, Sweden 
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  1. What’s even more encouraging is the fact that when people get older they generally become more conservative.

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
    , @gate666
  2. How come pretty much all the evidence for this Generation Z stuff comes from organizations and institutions I’ve never heard of who don’t make their data available and never reputable pollsters like Pew (can’t speak to the Swedish link)? Seems like fake news. We’ll know if the Hispanic Heritage Fund was right in the 2018 midterms as Gen Z from their supposed poll will actually be voting. I am very skeptical of all this.

  3. And you fools doubted me. :)

    Not only will we redeem Sweden, but the redeemed Sweden will establish the tropical aryan surfer paradise.

    • Replies: @Rosamond Vincy
  4. Swedes are genetically incapable of being anything but fanatics. Similar to Germans. They will switch to National Socialism. Unfortunately there’s little chance for a middle ground. Although Swedish Social Democracy was not bad until the 1970s. I think I wrote something along these lines either here or over at iSteve sometime over the past few years.

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
  5. Mitleser says:

    In Germany, the AfD is underperforming among the youngest (and oldest) voters.

  6. @Jeremy Cooper

    We’ll see. Yes, it’s possibly too good to be true.

  7. @Mitleser

    In Germany, the AfD is underperforming among the youngest (and oldest) voters

    The old cretins who keep on voting CDU because Frau Merkel is such a nice woman and they’ve always voted CDU anyway are the bigger problem though, because there’s so many of them.

  8. I think ultimately, in Sweden as well as other countries, it comes down to the speed of white radicalisation vs the speed of subaltern population replacement as well as the breakdown of age demographics.

  9. @reiner Tor

    Swedish social democracy was/is (still exists in many ways) [email protected]#$ing gay.

    My father decided to emigrate after interviewing for a job with an executive with one of Sweden’s leading corporations.

    He asked the guy what kind of car he drove, and the man pointed to a rusty old Volvo in the lot.

    Point being because of Sweden’s obsession with “equality” he was denied the high income he deserved and thus could not afford a car befitting his social status.

    Then there’s absolute rubbish like letting people go to college for free.

    I realize our path to power lies in populism, but we do not want to revive social democracy.

  10. @Mitleser

    These results are disturbing.

    It suggests we’ll have to liberate the Germans from themselves.

    I’m fully prepared to do that, as the loss of German civilization to the world would be a genuine tragedy.

    And no one should have the right to be wrong.

    • Replies: @German_reader
    , @songbird
  11. @Thorfinnsson

    I don’t see what’s so disturbing about it, it does show that AfD is relatively strong among economically productive age segmentes who have concerns like starting a family or are worried about the future of their children.
    The weak results among the young aren’t that bad imo, many of them will become more right-wing as they get older. The real problem is the huge cohort of stupid pensioners who keep the Christian Democrats and the Social Democrats alive and able to form a governing coalition.
    One has to be realistic, AfD getting almost 13% of the vote in the federal elections and being now present in almost all state parliaments is an unprecedented success for a right-wing party, and hopefully something to build on.

    • Replies: @Ali Choudhury
  12. @Simon010101

    Is that really true? I have the impression that old people (due to becoming more fixed in their habits and preferences) hold relatively same ideological opinions as they did when they were younger (excepting large societal shocks).

    I think this phenomenon is simply because so many generations have been more liberal than their parents that the shifting of the Overton window makes elders look more conservative than they really are even though in general their ideological viewpoint hasn’t changed much.

    After all a liberal/moderate/conservative ideological viewpoint would look rather different in 1940, 1960, 1980, 2000 and 2018.

    Although this is just my hypothesis, so maybe I am wrong but most of the old people I know seem like they a) hold roughly the same views they have always had or b) follow the Overton window.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    , @Mitleser
    , @Matra
  13. @Hyperborean

    I think your opinions change a lot when you start to work, and then again when you start having children (which will enormously increase your future orientation). It’s easy to be super liberal when it’s other people’s taxes and ten years is a very very long time.

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
  14. Mitleser says:
    @Hyperborean

    I have the impression that old people (due to becoming more fixed in their habits and preferences) hold relatively same ideological opinions as they did when they were younger (excepting large societal shocks).

    This.
    Many people keep voting for the same party and do not consider alternatives.
    That is why the older voters get in Germany, the more likely they vote for parties of the Merkel coalition whose parties used to be more dominant in the past.

  15. @Thorfinnsson

    I know plenty of wealthy people who drive old cars

    My brother told me a good one a few months ago, he was going out for a few pints, but need to get some cash from the ATM, as he walked over to the ATM a brand new Jag cuts him up and the driver slams on the breaks then jumps out of the car to use the ATM, once finished at the ATM the Jag owner gets back in the car and speeds away, and the message still on the ATM screen reads, insufficient funds

    Its foolish to judge people by the car they drive, but then again most BMW drivers are wankers, so who knows

    • Replies: @AP
    , @Thorfinnsson
  16. @reiner Tor

    That’s probably true on an economic-political axis but I was thinking more in terms of social-cultural attitudes, which I think is more correlated with opinions about nationalism.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
  17. @Thorfinnsson

    Then there’s absolute rubbish like letting people go to college for free.

    I think the problem is more that there are a lot of people who shouldn’t be there are in university (either because the subject they are taking is useless or because they are not smart enough) rather than the cost of paying for education.

    I think it would be better to make tuition free and instead streamline universities by cutting down on bureaucracy, limit admissions so students likely to fail don’t get in, reduce or eliminate courses of little or no value etc.

    Reducing the required-credentials inflation for jobs that don’t need degrees would probably also help.

    • Agree: RadicalCenter
  18. Matra says:
    @Hyperborean

    Observing the many old people I know – working/middle/upper-middle class, British/Canadian/non-Anglo, left and right leaning, university educated/lifelong housewives, etc – there is something they all have in common: They believe TV.

    If someone on TV (or radio) says something it must be true. People don’t lie, especially people with credentials on TV. They don’t discuss complicated issues without having honestly and meticulously examined them beforehand. That’s why they are on TV: They are well-vetted honest experts without any conflicts of interest.

    • Replies: @TomSchmidt
    , @Anonymous
  19. AP says:
    @(((They))) Live

    I know plenty of wealthy people who drive old cars

    The guy who funded a friend’s start-up a few years ago was worth several hundred million dollars but drove an old PT Cruiser.

    The problem however is when this sort of thing is expected.

    • Replies: @songbird
  20. @Thorfinnsson

    You’ve been thoroughly americanised. Swedish nationalists, especially the more hardcore kind, are very communitarian, which includes a strong dose of egalitarianism. You should meet them, next time you are in Sweden. Though you dismiss it, I disagree with the attacks of egalitarianism.

    A homogenous society with strong inter-class loyalty is far more efficient as an organism and socially more nimble. The price paid for that is that high achievers get clipped – such as your father – but the strength is that the cumulative results of the entire society gets amplified.

    Northern Europeans have learned to sacrifice for each others and to curtail personal ambitions for the greater good. This impulse is a key reason, in my humble view, why Northern Europe gained predominance over other parts of Europe, and with time, over the rest of the world. I view this instinct as one of the key ingredients of a successful civilisation and one that East Asia shares as well.

    If you look at capability/intelligence, I do not believe that the average Polish person is dumber than the average ethnic French person. Polish failure – as well as that of the rest of Eastern Europe – over the last 200-300 years cannot be solely pinned down to genetics, but must be found primarily in cultural failures and more inefficient forms of social organisation. As I mentioned to German_reader, even highly successful cultural norms can be taken too far and become caricatures. I believe this is what we’ve seen in the West in the last 50 years, where ever-more categories of victims are invented. But that doesn’t mean that the initial spark wasn’t a good idea. Sweden’s very impressive achievement of granting their farmers more political and economic freedom than almost anywhere else in Europe could not have happened without enlightened and egalitarian elites.

    • Agree: reiner Tor, AaronB
  21. Nordfront, the media arm of the Nordic Resistance Movement(openly national socialist), is reaching 300-400K uniques per week according to their own estimates. As far as I know, this is the biggest nationalist website in Sweden. Think about this for a moment. We’re talking maybe 8 million ethnic Swedes, and some of them are either too young or too old to be on the internet. So they have an amazing penetration rate. They could be lying, but Swedes are not exactly known for being blowhards.

    Fria Tider, Samnytt and Nya Tider are also big outlets. All nationalist platforms are growing by leaps and bounds. Sweden actually has fairly strong protections for free speech enshrined in their constitution (for European standards)

    Very tellingly, however it was the Sweden Democrats, the supposed “far-right” that has proposed to abolish some of these protections in order to go after NMR more effectively after their successful Gothenburg demonstration last year.

    This is why I have warned people not to think that SD is a the saviour of Sweden. They are kosher nationalists. They have co-operated with Expo, the Swedish equivalent of SPLC. Like SPLC, EXPO was founded and bankrolled by a jewish financial interests. SD has also repeatedly attacked ethnic nationalists and of course praised Israel. There are other parties like this in Europe, such as the so-callled ‘True Finns’ party which has all but collapsed after completely selling out.

    My friends in Sweden are working overtime to make sure that genuine radicalisation that occurs in Sweden does not go to wasted controlled opposition parties like SD. I visit them on a yearly basis and I am blown away by the progress they are making, and I’m taking those lessons back to Poland. There is a lot to learn from the Swedes, and I’ve been delighted to note that it isn’t just national socialists who are dominating the nationalist far-right anymore, which was the case up until a few years ago. I am not a nationalist socialist, so I am pleased with that development.

    Even groups such as Nordisk Ungdom have grown a lot. I’ve met some of them last summer and I will meet them again in a few weeks. They are in fact Catholics but at the same time reject civic nationalism and the more pagan/atheist elements of the nationalist socialist wing. Then you have people like Ingrid Carlquist, who was a mainstream journalist (!) but then totally radicalised in matter of just a few months and she has also sponsored some organisation called Det Fria Sverige.

    Sweden, as I’ve noted before, was one of the earliest pioneers of eugenics research at Uppsala University and went furthest of any country in forced sterilisations. Since WWII it has done a 180 and so it shouldn’t surprise anyone if they are now doing a lot of innovative work in nationalist politics. For European nationalists – real nationalists – I can not think of a single country which is more dynamic right now.
    .

    • Replies: @utu
    , @LatW
  22. @Hyperborean

    No, I think it influences attitudes on a lot of things.

    For example immigration is partly a question of economics. Lower time preference will make you think differently when you read something like “by 2050 ONLY 20% of the UK population is expected to be Muslim, Eurabia is only right-wing fearmongering” (I’ve seen a similar headline on a Hungarian liberal website) and then you just look up their present percentage (something like 5 or 6%), and then you extrapolate a few decades ahead. A much younger person might not extrapolate it, or would probably just think “many things could happen until then, it’s useless to worry about such a distant future.” I mean, 2050 is very far away for an 18-year-old, but it’s much closer to me.

    There are many other examples, like social attitudes on casual sex, getting high on drugs, etc. My attitudes on marijuana (and other substance abuse) changed a lot from age 22 when I almost regularly smoked pot. I also think I wasted my years at university (when I had nothing to do for years, and could’ve read books or done something useful, instead I read many less books during those 5 years than during any five year period since…), and I now don’t find getting drunk/high as normal as I did back then. I’m also aware of many of the side effects which then I was too young to recognize (like pot using a drop in your motivation and concentration levels, turning you into a #$!% plant). Besides being off the thing for longer periods (and so being able to suddenly notice some side effect when you use it over one weekend after not having used it for a while), you will also notice its effects on your friends, which takes a longer time.

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
    , @Dmitry
  23. utu says:
    @Polish Perspective

    Great comment. I like the short had ‘kosher nationalism.’ And this is from your older comment:

    Either be radical from the start and hold the line or go home. Notice that the left never softens their demands, but right-wingers are constantly obsessed about fitting in and pleasing the normies. It’s a loser mentality and a sign of a mentally weak person, always trying to please others and having no principles. That’s how you end up with cuckservatives, whether in the GOP or SD.

    Could you write something about nationalist scene in Poland (‘and I’m taking those lessons back to Poland’)?

    • Replies: @Polish Perspective
  24. gate666 says:
    @Simon010101

    this is mostly limited to usa.

  25. @reiner Tor

    Well, since I am young and, barring a lethal accident, I have a long time to live I make a general point of trying to think of the long-term consequences of the actions that I take and while I don’t have zero regrets I’d like to think I have at least reduced the amount of mistakes I have made in my personal life.

    I might simply be an exception, at least when I am with my peers I am somehow always the most ‘uptight’ person in the room.

    Although I do think there is something to my liberalising generations theory as I see older people who do and say things that would most likely have shocked their great-grandparents.

  26. Dmitry says:
    @Thorfinnsson

    Then there’s absolute rubbish like letting people go to college for free.

    The interesting thing about Sweden is that it is also free to go to college for any foreigners – who have EU passports.

    Some of my EU citizen passport having colleagues were talking about this (to stop working for a year, go to Sweden, relax as on holiday, and to do one of the free Master’s degree courses there).

    • Replies: @LatW
  27. songbird says:
    @Thorfinnsson

    If there is a solution, IMO, it won’t be purely democratic but military. That still requires a large number of political elites to take up the mantel, which perhaps is dependent on a certain amount of political gains by parties. But I do not believe that 51% of the population will do it. For one thing, there are so many people willing to commit acts of sabotage, that a simple majority, if even possible, will never stop them.

  28. songbird says:
    @AP

    I sort of liked the PT Cruiser. Maybe the engine wasn’t great, but I liked how the design was a bit out of the box, but not hideously ugly, like a few others. A shame they stopped making it.

    • Disagree: Thorfinnsson
  29. Dmitry says:
    @reiner Tor

    I also think I wasted my years at university (when I had nothing to do for years, and could’ve read books or done something useful, instead I read many less books during those 5 years than during any five year period since…), and I now don’t find getting drunk/high as normal as I did back then. I’m also aware of many of the side effects which then I was too young to recognize (like pot using a drop in your motivation and concentration levels, turning you into a #$!% plant).

    And maybe you would have become too motivated, reached chief executive position, and died in the crash of your private helicopter. Maybe the cannabis has saved your life.

  30. songbird says:
    @Polish Perspective

    I sort of like the Japanese model of egalitarianism. They don’t take it to the pathological woman=man and anyone=Japanese level, like the Swedes have.

    I fear though that the Swedes have a genetic susceptibility to radical egalitarianism due to hard winters. Perhaps, there is some way around it – depowering the state or something – but I believe what we are seeing now is just the end part of a natural progression under the existing political system. Even though Sweden was once considered fairly capitalistic, I don’t believe that things would have gone differently, if a butterfly flapped its wings.

  31. @(((They))) Live

    Things were different half a century ago.

  32. @Polish Perspective

    America is a liberal country borne out of an Enlightenment revolution. It just happened not to develop into a social democracy. I reject liberalism entirely, including the American Revolution itself which was a rebellion based on a pack of lies.

    I am not opposed to all egalitarianism either and accept much of what you say.

    But things like the government consuming half of economic output, free everything, losers allowed to vote, etc. are plainly ridiculous.

    Then you have to ask yourself what is the price of clipping we high achievers? That high achievers emigrate? That doesn’t sound too good.

    I’m Americanized, but the source of my views on this is having become a “lord” who provides for many people. A nation without class differences is a mere horde.

    As for your native country I think it’s just bad luck. Talk about unfortunately geography…a flat plain wedged right between Germany and Russia. Ans also on the Baltic to allow Sweden to get in on the action as well. Ouch.

    • Replies: @DFH
  33. DFH says:
    @Thorfinnsson

    America is a liberal country borne out of an Enlightenment revolution

    It wasn’t born out of an ‘Enlightenment revolution’, it was born out of an English constitutional revolution. The mainstream arguments for the Revolution were based on that, not on anything to do with the Enlightenment. You would have a better case that the Constitution was written according to Enlightenment principles, although even that probably overrates the influence.

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
  34. songbird says:

    It is an interesting question whether the Left will eventually turn on a dime and come back to eugenics and homogeneity, becoming the most radical supporters of both.

    I rather doubt it myself. Mostly because of power dynamics, rather than any idea that their ideology has become fixed by its evolved psychological appeal to a particular mindset.

  35. @DFH

    We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

    Hard to imagine Simon de Montfort writing such errant nonsense.

    • Replies: @DFH
    , @German_reader
  36. DFH says:
    @Thorfinnsson

    The ideas about natural rights are in line with 1688 principles. Even Jefferson tried to trace them back to the Saxons. The only phrase that can really be called enlightenment is ‘all men are created equal’ .
    But America’s egalitarian social structure predated the Enlightenment and revolution.
    In any case, the reasons for the rebellion were a perceived violation of English liberties, just as in the Civil War or the Glorious Revolution.

    • Replies: @Anon
    , @Thorfinnsson
  37. @Thorfinnsson

    The revolution was justified (at least at first) with reference to the rights of Englishmen, and was basically about preserving the powers of the colonial assemblies against attempts of centralisation by the imperial metropole. So it was in a line with earlier struggles between parliament and royal power.
    Charles I had lost his head well before the Enlightenment after all.

  38. Anon[298] • Disclaimer says:
    @DFH

    There were no real 1688 ‘principles’. Marlborough is typical of the morals of the period. The idea was to justify a foreign takeover, and that was done. Note the silly dodging Burke has to do to criticize the French revolution while praising the English.

    The American Revolution, on the other hand, was carried out by real Enlightenment liberals (including many of the disenfranchised Catholics), and opposed by conservatives like the remaining Jacobites.

    • Replies: @DFH
    , @Thorfinnsson
  39. DFH says:
    @Anon

    Typical Jacobite stupidity.

    There were no real 1688 ‘principles’.

    There were. People made constant reference to them for at least the next century.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_of_Rights_1689

    The idea was to justify a foreign takeover

    Obviously wrong. It wasn’t a ‘foreign takeover’, since Parliament invited William and Mary to become monarchs since James was attempting a takeover and Parliament retained sovereignty. Nor were the principles a post-hoc justification, since without them there would have been no reason to object to James’ usurpation. Contrast this with Charles II who was receiving secret French subsidies to help subvert Parliament and maintain a pro-French foreign policy.

    The American Revolution, on the other hand, was carried out by real Enlightenment liberals

    Only a small number of participants (Jefferson, Samuel Adams, Franklin) can be described that way. But the most commonly used justifications for the Revolution did not depend on Enlightenment principles. A large part of them was borrowed from the Country party in England.

    • Replies: @Anon
  40. LatW says:
    @Polish Perspective

    Think about this for a moment.

    Good. This is fantastic, but once you enter the big politics, things change. The pattern for the right wing parties has been that they start out somewhat radical (ideologically consistent) and then “sell out”, as you say, or get “diluted” once they get into the parliament. Most of our countries have a parliamentary system where a coalition needs to be formed. So there are two options for moderately nationalist parties with a profile similar to SD – they can try to participate in the coalition and compromise on certain things but get some (no matter how small) access to real power (and in the case of SD they can’t even do that because they’re perpetually isolated (“Rasisterna!”) or they can stay in the opposition indefinitely (granted, even a few seats in the parliament is not bad and definitely an improvement compared to how it used to be just 7-10 years ago). Another path that many have taken so far is to try to affect politics on the local level. And, btw, there’s also the Ukrainian example – forming of parallel structures within the system which is a bit rogue, I admit, but extreme circumstances require extreme measures, so to speak.. frankly, given the situation in some Western European countries, if those societies were more vigorous and astute, there probably would’ve been men by now who would’ve taken things into their own hands (not random skinheads, of course, but men in the establishment, I guess the problem is that these rare individuals have financial and other entanglements).

    This pattern repeats itself over and over. In some cases, there are schisms between these right wing parties even before the more lenient of them enter the elections. In the meantime, the clock is ticking. I don’t know if what you’re describing is something new (after all, things are much different now than they were prior to 2014 and nationalist ideas are gaining traction in broader public, as you duly noted) or if it could change the current political landscape (or that this movement could just grow from the ground up and take over parts of society, the public would be prepared, and then at some point in the future, when the X hour comes, a sufficient part of the public and the power structures will side with the right people). Either way, these are positive trends and hopefully this builds a momentum. But the fact remains that our political systems are based on compromise – and since there is no visible alternative, the key would be to build a wide enough right wing coalition of generally like minded parties that could tip the scales and could not only propose plans for new immigration policies but finally execute them.

    • Replies: @Polish Perspective
  41. LatW says:
    @Dmitry

    Some of my EU citizen passport having colleagues were talking about this (to stop working for a year, go to Sweden, relax as on holiday, and to do one of the free Master’s degree courses there).

    Haha, good one. A little caveat – living expenses. Although one can always live in one of those little wooden cabins – they’re nice! For a couple of days at least. Like you say, as “on holiday”.

    • Replies: @El Dato
    , @Dmitry
  42. notanon says:

    I wonder to what extent Generation Zyklon is a widespread phenomenon beyond just the US.

    the vast majority of inter-ethnic violence involves teen gangs in and around the schools but media censorship of this makes it hard for people who didn’t go to a diverse especially blue collar school to understand how violent they are – which when combined with anti-white SJW teachers pretty much guarantees gen Zyklon in direct proportion to how integrated the schools are – while at the same time SJW teachers in all-white schools are producing extreme SJW (or self-harming) kids.

  43. notanon says:
    @Mitleser

    In Germany, the AfD is underperforming among the youngest (and oldest) voters.

    is there a male/female split among the young?

    • Replies: @German_reader
  44. notanon says:
    @Polish Perspective

    Though you dismiss it, I disagree with the attacks of egalitarianism.

    i think the moral drive behind egalitarianism is fairness and it only becomes pathological in the context of belief in the blank slate.

    egalitarian instincts anchored by genetics would work better imo.

  45. @notanon

    If I read the table posted by Mitleser correctly results for the federal elections are like this:

    Age 18-24:
    women: 6% for AfD
    men: 10%

    Age 25-34:
    women: 9,6%
    men: 16,1%

    Age 35-44:
    women: 11,2%
    men: 19,7%

    Age 45-59:
    women: 11,1%
    men: 19,2%

    Age 60-69:
    women: 9,9%
    men: 16,7%

    Age 70 and over:
    women: 5,9%
    men: 11,3%

    • Replies: @notanon
  46. I also wonder to what extent Generation Zyklon is real in Russia.

    Support for Putin falls off, and PLUMMETS for the commies, amongst younger Russians, while support for the LDPR quadruples relative to the oldest generation; though liberal/Navalny support also surges upwards. As I have pointed out in my Russian Elections 2018 posts.

    Still, it would be interesting to see age based responses to more specific questions about immigrants, gender identity, etc.

    My guess is that young Russians are based. A very large percentage of Sputnik & Pogrom’s and ROGPR’s audience are in their 20s, university students, and even schoolkids.

  47. @German_reader

    If they were going to break through in a major way, wouldn’t they have done so in the last election? No German politician is going to invite refugees etc. like Merkel did again. Seehoffer seems pretty committed to ramping up deportations so what will the AfD be reacting against?

  48. notanon says:
    @German_reader

    ty – seems the male/female split is fairly even across the age groups – i was wondering if the split among the young was more extreme (with the girls being more effected by the SJW indoctrination and boys reacting against it)

  49. @DFH

    I had in my mind the idea that the Enlightenment started in the 17th century.

    Which it turns out is incorrect.

    So point to you and German_reader.

    None the less the Declaration of Independence is a pack of lies and America was flawed from its very outset.

  50. @Anon

    Let’s not forget that a Catholic restoration could’ve resulted in the English elite being compelled to give up all the wealth that was seized from the Roman Catholic Church.

    • Agree: dfordoom
    • Replies: @DFH
  51. @Ali Choudhury

    If they were going to break through in a major way, wouldn’t they have done so in the last election?

    I don’t think you understand how unprecedented AfD’s success is, there’s a huge taboo in Germany against anything even vaguely nationalist or right-wing due to the Nazi past, and the entire establishment (parties, churches, trade unions, the media) has been unanimous in demonizing AfD. And AfD is a new party that has only existed for a few years, gone through multiple crises and doesn’t always have the most professional people in its ranks. Under those conditions their results in the federal election (almost a fifth among men aged 35-59!) are quite remarkable, though obviously I would have wished for something even better.
    As for the refugee issue: It has to be emphasized that the basic situation is completely unchanged from 2015. Everybody who turns up at the German border and claims asylum is let in and has a very good chance of never being deported and being permanently supported by the German tax payer. At least 200 000 new “refugees” are coming every year. The number of successful deportations is a joke compared to that. The left and the churches are busily agitating for generous family reunification. And Seehofer is a total fraud imo who’s merely concerned about the Bavarian state elections in fall, but fundamentally unserious about changing the situation. He’s made no move to turn new arrivals away from Germany’s borders. He might also get in trouble since there’s a scandal in the asylum system in Bremen (large-scale rubber stamping of asylum applications on dubious grounds), and apparently he knew about that earlier than he claimed (i.e. he lied, as is to be expected from this con man). And his CSU doesn’t come up with anything better than ridiculous symbolic politics like crosses in public buildings and declaring the AfD to be “brown filth” and “enemies of Bavaria” (lol).
    Unless there’s a drastic reversal of course – which the establishment has completely refused so far – AfD will have lots to react against for the foreseeable future.

    • Replies: @Mitleser
  52. songbird says:
    @Ali Choudhury

    No German politician is going to invite refugees etc. like Merkel did again.

    That is rather optimistic. Nor, does it accord with what happened in other countries like America or the UK. The number let in was something like 10% of the age cohort. Not of ethnic Germans, but of Germans plus Turks and assorted smaller groups. None of those other groups are AfD supporters – they all without exception want to grow their own group, and, yes, if in a perhaps, less conscious or secondary way, they want to shrink the number of real Germans.

    Actually, they are continuing to invite them in, but in a less showy way. Deportations are, like in the US, theater of the mind.

  53. Anon[298] • Disclaimer says:
    @DFH

    James was attempting a takeover

    If you want to talk about “stupidity”, this takes the cake.

    Thanks for the discussion minus the insults. May continue it later.

    Only a small number of participants (Jefferson, Samuel Adams, Franklin) can be described that way.

    Start here: http://nationalhumanitiescenter.org/tserve/eighteen/ekeyinfo/deism.htm

  54. fetus says:

    It’s funny, the only Swedish guy I talked to was virulently racist. This was in early High School, about 5 years ago. He was from Malmö, and always talked about Nigerians shitting up his town.

  55. @utu

    Could you write something about nationalist scene in Poland (‘and I’m taking those lessons back to Poland’)?

    Sure, though I will preface my comment by stating that I since I am not planning to doxx myself, I will limit my remarks to more general outlines.

    The Polish scene has been dominated by religious-oriented organisations. Many of these organisations trace their roots to the interwar period. There has been growth in recent years by more explicitly ethno-nationalist groups which are agnostic on religion. Full disclosure: I am an atheist, though like many atheists in Poland, I am pragmatic about Catholicism in the short to medium term, given the deep interwoven links it has to the Polish national psyche.

    The most dominant group up until now has been Obóz Narodowo-Radykalny, or ONR, which was ressurected in the early 1990s after the ban on such organisations during the communist era, but whose history stretches back further.

    Despite being labelled “nationalist socialist”, ONR has gone on record that they would prefer a black bishop who is ‘socially conservative’ than a white communist. While I have no love for white communists, this is basically the Polish verion of “based black guy with a MAGA hat”. Another full disclosure: I am working overtime to liquidate such notions, but Poles still have a religious, rather than racial, identity first and foremost.

    The growth of explicit ethno-nationalist groups in recent years have been one development that I’ve been most excited over, such as the “black bloc”. Unlike in the West, where such names are associated with antifa, it’s the far-right in Poland. Black bloc do not reject religion per se, but they submerge it under Polish identity rather than merge it and/or view it as equal value. They would never say that a based black bishop would be desirable. These groups are newer, and more fragile, but this is where I am concentrating my energy. I am not bound to any single organisation, but I am a conduit between different ones and I try to keep a united front between them.

    This is where I am drawing a lot of lessons from Sweden. While the Swedish scene is not without rivalries, I am struck by the compromising spirit. I’ll give you an example. NMR recently raised close to a million SEK – no small amount for a nationalist organisation – and got promptly shut down by Nordea, one of the main banks in the Nordic region. As a result, they shifted their donations to one of their private bank accounts and as a token of appreciation, Chris Dulny, who worked for SD before he became disaffected and who has a upper-middle class background, donated publicly to them by saying that “even if he isn’t a national socialist, he is against censorship”. There was none of this milque-toast fear of social reputational loss (if you’re an ethnic nationalist, worrying about such things is irrational anyway since you’ll be a pariah, so why bother?). They also got donations from many other groups.

    It was a clear example to me how even people who disagreed with each other a lot in Sweden managed to pull together. Compare and contrast this to the endless backstabbing and psychodrama in the US. When the whole white sharia nonsense started in the US, NMR were early opponents of this. Every other organisation, Det Fria Sverige and of course Nordisk Ungdom, followed. This is not surprising. All these organisations are founded and led by men who are married and have kids. Another key lesson. Don’t let single men lead. And certainly don’t let mischling jewish online trolls (like weev) get prominent positions.

    A third lesson is that media outreach is crucial. NMR has been so successful with their media efforts that many nationalists in the West think their actual name is Nordfront, when that is just the name of their website. As I mentioned, in Sweden, Nordfront gets huge amount of uniques.

    There was a May 1st demonstration lately and they bought and invested in expensive equipment and managed to get upwards of 50k viewers on their livestream. For a nationalist socialist organisation with 8 million ethnic Swedes in their country, that is amazing. They also invest a lot in podcasts. The goal is to normalise their organisation and not let themselves be painted by the enemy on the enemy’s turn. Look at how much of the US alt right allowed the media to set the tone, I’m thinking of Spencer in particular who seemed to have a weird symboiotic relationship with the US MSM. That would never happen with NMR, Nordisk Ungdom or Det Fria Sverige. All of them have their own media platforms and all of them are investing heavily in podcasts and the like. Det Fria Sverige actually outgrew out of Motpol, which was started by two veterans of the nationalist movement and grew a lot as an independent platform.

    They then teamed up with Ingrid Carlquist and created their organisation. For Polish orgs, we have relatively weak media prescence. It’s not enough to just have a website. It has to be very active. You have to write about general news in order to draw in a larger crowd. You have to have tons of podcasts, an active video channel (or two). But despite all this media activity, NMR is successful because it is also very hardworking in the nitty-gritty. They still do old-fashioned flyer handouts.

    I mentioned before about Swedes being egalitarian. All organisations I’ve mentioned are hierarchical, but the leadership is deeply involved even in everyday activities. There is no elitism or special privileges. These cultural changes will be harder to implement in Poland, since I suspect they are deeply rooted, but it is certainly worth going in that direction. I admire the Nords, and the Swedes in particular are working hard to save their country. They are heavily repressed by are blossoming anyway.

    One final thing. NMR has never, ever cucked. There have been many milquetoast alternatives and they all fell by the wayside over the years. Some of these alternatives started out as SD. SD itself was far more radical even 5 years ago. But if you reject ethnic nationalism at the outset, the lesson is that you’ll never go back because as you said, the pressure is constantly to cuck on white organisation once you start reaching success. The success of NMR has meant that other organisations, such as Nordisk Ungdom, have more easily taken to ethnic nationalism. Same with Det Fria Sverige. For Polish conditions, this means de-emphasising catholicism and to manage to do two seemingly at odds things at the same time: on the one hand, to harden the core without purging the more moderate elements and to make sure that there is a baseline of loyalty between the more moderate elements and the hardened core, the way the Swedes have managed. How they are doing that, is the reason why I keep coming back to learn. Their organisational skills are world-class. Their IT and media skills are also very innovative. They are a very impressive people.

    • Agree: Anatoly Karlin
  56. @LatW

    You make a lot of good points. I ultimately think that there won’t be a one-size-fits-all solution.

    That said, I do think that one of the more useful things we can do is to tell both ourselves and those around us in this fight the truth: this is going to be a long struggle. We also have to be honest about the fact that most whites are quite comfortable right now.

    The changes we’re seeing will take place over decades and humans in general are terrible at judging long-term risks. We’ve evolved for fight-or-flight. Another problem is that many right-wing nationalists use too hysterical language in the short-term, which makes them easy to dismiss. A third is that most of the newcomers to Europe are often quite dumb and while they form ghettoes, they have very limited economic and political power. This means that the alarmist statements of “muslims are taking over!” simply don’t ring true. Even I don’t believe in these statements.

    But if we have more nuanced propaganda, namely that our socities are going to be slowly disintegrating over decades and that alienation will steadily increase, without resorting to catastrophic imagery, it would help, I think.

    Lastly, it is important to always frame all of our solutions in the context of what’s good for us as a people as opposed to “what’s good for the country”. As the country changes to become ever-more diverse, what’s good for the US, UK, Sweden, Germany etc isn’t necessarily what’s good for the American (white), British, Swedish or German people. I am not interested in becoming a useful and constructive critic to make multiculturalism work better (“let’s switch to the Australian system”).

    I’m interested in the surviving and thriving of my people and the key reason why Poland as a national state was founded in the first place was to safeguard this. If it can no longer do that, then we have to find new ways of organising. A lot of magatards in the Alt Right fell victims to this, as they became blind Trump cheerleaders even as he wasn’t really doing much to help them. They subsumed their white advocacy for shilling for the GOP, with disastrous consequences. This is another lesson from NMR, they are primarily interested in the Nordic peoples and less so in the survival of particular nation-states which exist due to historical circumstances. I agree with that stance. I have no particular loyalty to the flag of Poland, I only have loyalty to the people. The two need not be the same, and they certainly aren’t in many Western countries.

    • Agree: Thorfinnsson, AP
    • Replies: @Ali Choudhury
    , @LatW
  57. DFH says:
    @Thorfinnsson

    No it couldn’t. There was no possibility of this happening nearly 200 years later.

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
  58. Mitleser says:
    @German_reader

    The number of successful deportations is a joke compared to that.

    In the first quarter of 2018, 5,5k were successfully deported, but the deportations of 4,8k failed, sometimes in the last minute.

    https://jungefreiheit.de/politik/deutschland/2018/fast-jede-zweite-abschiebung-wird-abgebrochen/

    • Replies: @German_reader
  59. @Polish Perspective

    Is there much of a trend of Third Worlders trying to get into Poland? It is not a particularly rich country though the investment fundamentals are very good. I would have thought it was mostly Ukrainians, Belorussians, Moldovans etc. and returning Polish emigres who would be recent entrants.

  60. Anonymous[406] • Disclaimer says:
    @Ali Choudhury

    Firstly, there’s the likelihood of the EU turning into a ‘transfer union’ – something which the German people were *EXPLICITLY* promised would never, ever happen, before the Deutschmark was ditched over their heads -. Macron and the EU commissars are pushing very very hard to make a transfer union happen.

    Secondly, a good number of those so-called refugees *MUST* be repatriated.
    Thirdly, so-called ‘family reunification’ of the so-called ‘refugees’ *MUST* be halted.
    Fourthly, at the very very least Germany’s relationship with the EU *MUST* be renogitiated.Literally millions of third world invaders already in other EU states are just itching for the opportunity to inundate and loot Germany.

    • Agree: German_reader
  61. Anonymous[406] • Disclaimer says:
    @Ali Choudhury

    Anything but anything is better than life in India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Nigeria etc.

    Poles be warned!

  62. @Mitleser

    Yes, 5500 is of course ridiculous. Basicially the way it is now, you don’t get deported if you don’t cooperate (so bizarrely, the very worst characters have the best chance of staying).

  63. @Anonymous

    Agree on all points, I’d just add that the Christian Democrats have to be punished for their betrayal of Germany. That party needs to disappear.

  64. El Dato says:
    @LatW

    A Master in a Year? I expect say 2 years + 6 months to write up a thesis.

    Some kind of expedited learning?

  65. @DFH

    1688 was not 200 years later.

    And barely 30 years after the civil war for that matter.

    • Replies: @DFH
  66. @Ali Choudhury

    I’ve written sporadically about the increasing share of non-whites coming into Poland. The roots of this development are the employment-related international agreements that Poland signed with a number of countries during the final years before the 2008 crisis, during the previous neoliberal regime.

    PiS has not done much to change this, though to their credit, they have tried to steer as much of it as possible to Eastern Europe (especially Ukraine but increasingly even Belarus, Moldova etc).

    There is a large increase in workers coming from India, Vietnam and even China (!). Most of them are coming into Warsaw, where wages are highest and there is a lot of construction and economic activity. The numbers are still very modest but they are growing fast. Indians seeking residency permit increased by 80% in 2017 over 2016. They are still not in our top 5 nationalities list but they will be soon, possibly even this year. Furthermore, given the demographics of Ukraine and India, I expect Indians to become the biggest non-white group in Poland within no more than 5 years.

    Poland’s wages are actually half-decent for EE. Net wages in nominal terms are ahead even (on paper) richer countries like Slovakia and quite a bit ahead Hungary (which has a per capita income on par with us). But what really sets us apart is really cheap living costs, especially food but also transportation costs (trams, buses etc) and in some cities also rents. This means that the money you can save is arguably greater in Poland than in most other EE countries save for perhaps Estonia or Slovenia.

    Poland will not be as attractive as Germany or Sweden for a very long time, possibly never, but I think a lot of Poles underestimate the attraction it has already to many of the poorer parts of the world. Our real wage growth is in the region of 6% YoY from an already quite high base. Our economy grew 5.1% last quarter. Thugh it is expected to slow down to around 4% over the coming years, wage growth will outpace GDP growth since productivity was growing faster than wages for many years. Our labour productivity is also growing by around 4% per annum so even 5-6% real wage growth for a number of years won’t be an issue for quite some time.

    To get a sense of this, look at this and then sort by PPP-adjusted net wages:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_countries_by_average_wage

    As you can see, Poland is already quite attractive from a PPP-adjusted basis and given that our core inflation is barely capable of crossing over 1%, I don’t expect the next PPP round to radically change this even as our real wages grow very quickly. This would then re-enforce the trend of increasing non-white workers as our relative attractiveness grows. We won’t get many refugees but initially neither did Germany in the 1960s, 70s or 80s. PiS is a false saviour which is why I am not a supporter of them.

    If you want to go deep into the weeds of Polish international migration statistics, then this website is great:

    https://migracje.gov.pl/en/

  67. DFH says:
    @Thorfinnsson

    1688 was not 200 years later.

    150 years later isn’t much more plausible

    And barely 30 years after the civil war for that matter.

    And? No-one in the Civil War was proposing taking back secularised property.

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
  68. @Matra

    Exactly. There’s the divide. Gen Z knows they’re all talking their book.

    • Agree: Gordo
  69. @DFH

    What does DFH mean anyway?

  70. szopen says:
    @Polish Perspective

    There is a large increase in workers coming from India, Vietnam and even China

    Within a decade we will see a movement to “let’s give citizenship to those poor children” and within a generation we will be close to where France/Germany is now. And most people, including those based rightwingers complaining about multiculturalism in the west, seems to be blithely ignorant of the dangers of the current immigration trends. What’s even worse, most of them calls for more immigration “because we need hands to work” or “Poland is different because we have no welfare”. Sure! We will import million third-worlders and miracolously they will all become Poles, because unlike the West, we ahve magical formula for integration of the physically different masses!

  71. Mitleser says:
    @szopen

    Poland’s Eurasification shall beat France’s Africanisation.

    • Replies: @Polish Perspective
  72. Gordo says:
    @Polish Perspective

    In group altruism is good, pathological altruism is societal suicide.

  73. @Polish Perspective

    Thank you for the comprehensive reply.

  74. @Anonymous

    Meanwhile the southern European states blame the euro for devastating their economies whike German exports benefit from a much weaker currency than the deutschmark and German citizens save rather than boost their economies by spending. The whole European project seems set for endless conflict and political logjam. I voted Remain with some misgivings but now the sooner the UK detaches itself from the morass, the better.

    • Replies: @Mitleser
  75. Mitleser says:
    @Ali Choudhury

    Meanwhile the southern European states blame the euro for devastating their economies whike German exports benefit from a much weaker currency than the deutschmark and German citizens save rather than boost their economies by spending.

    In 2012, Savona said: “Since we are aware that the anti-historical experiment of creating a single currency without a single State has not been successful, my proposal is to draw up a Plan A to remain… and a Plan B to leave, if needed”.

    “Plan A” means draw up a new, united, more equal Europe. Italy sits at table with other major founding states -France and Germany- in order to plan a better future for all the member states (minus the UK), with deeper integration as result. Adopt “Plan B” means that European allies have decided to maintain the status quo. The risk is that all this can lead towards the end of the project. The euro could fall first.

    http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpost.php?p=148759595&postcount=735

    Savona is the one the new coalition wants as economic minister.

    This is gonna be fun.

    The whole European project seems set for endless conflict and political logjam.

    As expected of nation building.
    The Italian and German projects in the 19th century were no less full of that.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  76. @szopen

    I’m not as blackpilled as you are. First, the numbers we’re talking about are quite small, still. Second, the composition also matters. The people we’re getting (Indians, Vietnamese, Chinese) are incomparably better than Turks, Arabs and Sub-Saharan Africans. Third, the West will continue to draw most of the third worlders due to much higher wages.

    Finally, the technological trends work in our favour. AI is progressing even faster than I thought it would, and I often get pushback that I am too optimistic. Work intensity will fall, and probably dramatically, in 10-15 years time. Finally, while Poles are quite bluepilled on race, the West does serve as a negative example and it is most clearly showing among the youth.

    I’ve posted many charts here showing a vast gulf between those above the age of 50 and those below the age 30, especially age 25 and under. Those in the middle are sort of centrists, not just demographically but also politically. Poland over the next 20 years will become far less politically liberal in some areas, certainly when it comes pro-Western attitudes. That will also cool enthusiasm for following Western trends.

  77. @Mitleser

    Eurasification

    I think we’re all waiting with bated breath how this works out in Russia. You’re the role models and pioneers there, after all. Onwards, comrade! ;)

    • Replies: @Mitleser
  78. Pericles says:
    @Jeremy Cooper

    Conventional polling shows the Sweden Democrats, the hated immigration skeptics, are now just a few percentage points after the ruling Social Democrat party and roughly as large as the Moderates (at about 20% of the vote). The Sweden Democrats are now the largest party for male voters and for working class voters. The Social Democrats used to be the working class party.

    Some sources in Swedish from the public broadcaster:

    https://www.svt.se/nyheter/inrikes/analys-sd-s-framgangar-bland-arbetare-en-rysare-for-s

    https://www.svt.se/special/valjarbarometern/

    https://www.svt.se/nyheter/inrikes/sd-7

    It might also be interesting to note that there is no need to wait for the next generation. The Moderates turned somewhat anti-immigration after the Social Democrats snatched the electoral program of the Sweden Democrats. The next election, in September, will be on immigration.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  79. Anonymous[230] • Disclaimer says:
    @Polish Perspective

    Yep.

    Poles must go to England – for economic reasons – and then Indians take the places ethnic Poles left behind.
    In other words, Poland has got room for Indians but not it’s own people – and no one has ever had to fight harder for their national home.

    What fucking sense does that make?

  80. Anonymous[230] • Disclaimer says:
    @szopen

    One would have thought the truly terrible experience of Jewry in Poland – remember as every true Pole knows a certain Polish king only ever imported a ‘few hundred’ Jews into Poland for ‘trade’ reasons, and over the course of a few centuries that diaspora threatened to numerically overwhelm the Poles – would have taught the Poles something about the dynamics of immigration.

    But, apparently, no.

  81. Anonymous[230] • Disclaimer says:
    @Mitleser

    One must remember that almost the entire ‘economics establishment’ including the BIG bastards at The Economist were four square behind the common currency.

    *That* just about says it all.

    • Replies: @Mitleser
  82. Anonymous[230] • Disclaimer says:
    @Polish Perspective

    Don’t worry the blacks and Arabs WILL come.

    That haggard who drove the truck into the Berlin Christmas market got the truck from Poland – he knifed the driver.
    Remember also that Arab kebab shop owner in Poland who murdered a couple of Poles?

    Now, what I’m the name of fucking Hell is an Arab kebab shop doing in Poland,?

    As long as you stay in the EU – the money’s handy – you’re fucked.

    • Replies: @El Dato
  83. @Polish Perspective

    AI is progressing even faster than I thought it would

    Artificial superintelligence will probably mean the end of humanity.

    Where I work last September we encountered a bug in our automated trading system which would have bankrupted us if I (or my colleague who was also watching) didn’t shut the whole thing down after just 12 seconds. The options exchange modified the trades (just a few trades; they were done at an enormous loss) so our loss was relatively small (but had it gone unchecked, even the small losses would’ve bankrupted us after, say, half an hour, as happened to Knight Capital; the unmodified trades would’ve bankrupted us after three minutes), but the frightening thing was that the bug had been there for over a decade without ever being noticed. It did no harm, because the somewhat rare circumstances which triggered it hadn’t been encountered up until that point. It was, of course, a pretty dumb (and so uncomplicated) piece of software.

    What happened if a super-AI went haywire due to some hidden bug in its motivation and decided to exterminate us all? It’d be smarter than us all, so our only chance would be that another super-AI would notice and protect us.

    However, destroying something is way easier than protecting it. The destruction could be swift and sudden. It could also be irreversible and unstoppable once set in motion.

    I’m pretty negative on the whole thing. I’d join Talha in the Butlerian Jihad.

    • Replies: @El Dato
    , @Daniel Chieh
  84. Anonymous[230] • Disclaimer says:
    @Pericles

    ‘Shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted’.

    As they say in England.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
  85. @Anonymous

    Repatriation.

    Sweden could easily go full National Socialist in a generation. The immigrants will beg them to let them out.

    I’m not saying it’s a certainty, or even a likely outcome, but it’s definitely possible.

    • Replies: @German_reader
  86. @reiner Tor

    Repatriation

    Some amount of that is absolutely necessary imo, at least the arrivals of the last few years need to go back. Wouldn’t even be unfair or inhumane imo, “refugees” can’t have a right to permanent residence.
    Obviously it would be best though if that could be achieved without going full Nazi.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    , @Thorfinnsson
  87. Anonymous[230] • Disclaimer says:
    @German_reader

    You’ll have a civil war on your hands. Plus big instances of Arab anti – German terrorism.

    Expect the USA, the UN, the Council of Europe, the OCSE, the EU etc etc to side with the invaders.

    Remember, the USA has a nuclear arsenal.

    • Replies: @German_reader
  88. @Anonymous

    You’ll have a civil war on your hands. Plus big instances of Arab anti – German terrorism.

    Well, if it came to that one obviously would have to go full Nazi. In some ways it would actually make things easier.

    Remember, the USA has a nuclear arsenal

    Would be irrelevant in such a scenario.

    • Replies: @songbird
  89. El Dato says:
    @reiner Tor

    There won’t be a “super-AI” anytime soon.

    The AI shit now hitting the street is just statistical processing on steroids buoyed by cheap bubble money and ignorant hipster tech people. It makes Zuckerberg moist, vulture capitalists tipsy, the MIC rich and gives the politicians another emergency exit into some sort of world-saving device. “Our pensions will be paid by … AI … yeah! That’s it!!”

    The autonomous car is complete bullshit and will never work in the present form.

    It’s crap. It’s complete idiocy.

    And I have seen the Fifth Generation Project being hyped, then crash and burn.

    • Agree: Intelligent Dasein
  90. @German_reader

    The Nazis had excellent aesthetics and a clear conception of self-interest.

    Not the worst model, though they failed.

    If nothing else Germans should start goose stepping again.

    You’re a member of one of the greatest countries to ever exist. And your leaders want to erase you.

    Overthrow and destroy them.

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    , @AaronB
  91. El Dato says:
    @Anonymous

    That haggard who drove the truck into the Berlin Christmas market got the truck from Poland – he knifed the driver.

    You can get a truck from Poland anywhere in Germany at any time.

  92. @Thorfinnsson

    An excellent rendition of Prussia’s Glory with colorized footage from the late Kaiserreich: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N3i17f9IhPg

    I especially like the dachshund with the pickelhaube.

    Good English dachshund story here: http://dachshundlove.blogspot.com/2008/03/dachshunds-in-history-mimi-most.html

    Apparently in WW1 English dachshunds were stomped to death by furious mobs. That savagery is more outrageous than anything the Germans did.

    • LOL: German_reader
    • Replies: @German_reader
  93. @Thorfinnsson

    Apparently in WW1 English dachshunds were stomped to death by furious mobs

    Some must have survived though or were later reintroduced, the royal family does have those strange dorgies (mixed corgie-dachshund breeds) after all.

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    , @utu
  94. songbird says:
    @German_reader

    I don’t think even a fully third-world US would drop nukes on Europe, but I do think that there is a pretty strong danger of NATO becoming something like a multicult Warsaw Pact, where any attempt to break free from the ideology is strenuously punished with a crushing military force. Same thing would be true of an EU army.

    • Replies: @German_reader
    , @dfordoom
  95. Speaking of Sweden, AfS held a series of events in Sweden today. I got the pictures from Nordfront.
    The pictures themselves are a whitepill. This is what the “opposition” looks like:

    And here are the sympathising women:

    Which of those women would you rather be around, or live in close proximity to?

    Here’s the shot from the crowd:

    Mostly men, as expected, but decent amount of age variance. Not just a bunch of boomers, which is a good sign.

    Bonus pic: hawt reporter from Nya Tider, a new nationalist media outlet in Sweden.

  96. @songbird

    I don’t see an EU army coming into existence soon (Germany’s own armed forces are pretty decrepit), and despite my anti-American tendencies I have a hard time imagining that most Americans would be enthusiastic about fighting for the “rights” of the “refugee” invaders.
    It’s probably too early to talk about civil war anyway, though I don’t think a solution will be possible without some amount of violent strife (not least because the left regards violence against right-wingers as legitimate, and there’s also lots of potential for violence amongst the “refugees”).

    • Replies: @songbird
    , @Anonymous
  97. @Thorfinnsson

    I have always found Kaiser Wilhelm II endearing for his amusing personality quirks.

    He was a flawed personality, but probably unfairly maligned to some extent.
    I’m rather fond of dachshunds myself, amusing animals.

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    , @nebulafox
  98. @German_reader

    He reminds me of Trump in a lot of ways. Bombastic, charismatic, debonair, and good instincts. But ultimately flawed and weak (for the job). Better suited to playing the leader on television than being the leader.

    Trump himself is half-German, his ancestors hailing from Kallstadt in the Rhenish Palatinate. Supposedly Kallstadt is known within the Rhineland for being full of braggarts. He is on record (on camera) saying, “German blood, great stuff.”

    The founder of the HJ Heinz corporation is also from Kallstadt.

    The present ideological configuration of the West is very unfortunate on this front in that it precludes a triumphal visit of President Trump to his ancestral homeland in the Rhineland to cheering crowds.

    Jack Kennedy made such a visit to Ireland when he was President.

    Trump is only the third American President with German roots, despite there being nearly as many Americans with German origins as there are Germans.

    America is of course an Anglo country, but Germans gave this country a great deal of its culture, institutions, and business life. After all, George Washington didn’t send his children to kindergarten or drink Budweiser.

    The German origins of much of America have been suppressed and obscured as a result of the disastrous 20th century.

    I for one am an unabashed Germanophile and wish you and your country well.

    Dachshunds are not just amusing but useful. They are excellent varminters. My childhood best friend had a dachshund named Brick who reached 21 years of age and was “interviewed” and photographed for a book about exceptionally long-lived dogs.

    • Replies: @German_reader
  99. Mitleser says:
    @Polish Perspective

    Poland cannot escape its destiny.

  100. Mitleser says:
    @Anonymous

    Indeed, what is happening in Italy tells us who is charge.

    Italian President has summoned economist, Carlo Cottarelli, to the Quirinal Palace. Mattarella and Cottarelli will meet tomorrow.

    The IMF’s man.

    Well, that’s positive for the markets.

    http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1983701&page=38

  101. Anonymous[242] • Disclaimer says:
    @Polish Perspective

    Do you have more information on the Chinese population in Poland? There’s no Wikipedia article even so the amount of information in English is quite limited.

  102. Obóz Narodowo-Radykalny (Radical-National Camp) has been always a kind of fringe group, however even they base their program on Roman Dmowski, the leader of pre-war Narodowa Demokracja (ND: National Democracy) party, and a leader of Polish Delegation at the Versailles peace conference. By the tragic turn of fate, Dmowski was the main opponent of Jozef Pilsudski, a pre-war socialist who became the father of Polish independence after WWI (for you Northerners, a bit like Mannerheim in Finland. Incidentally, Mannerheim served in Warsaw as a Russian officer): therefore it is very easy to delegitimize any right-wing party as going in the steps of Narodowa Demokracja, the opponents of Pilsudski, father of re-born Poland. The original sin of ND (or endecja, as it is commonly called in Poland) in this narration is the murder of the first elected president of Poland, Gabriel Narutowicz in 1922. Due to this fact it is easy to depict nationalists as enemies of Polish state, people who would rather destroy everything than cede anything. Essentially fanatics. And Poles do not like fanaticism, traditionally seen as a German trait.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_of_Gabriel_Narutowicz

    To find a way out of this quagmire, nationalists (whom I understand as more or less inspired by Dmowski) have launched recently an attack on Pilsudski’s legend, depcitcing him as a kind of Lenin-like German agent provocateur (his anti-Russian politics was to save Germany and German territory from Polish pressure).
    On the other hand, the conflict between Pilsudski, who wanted big anti-Russian Polish federation (Promethean idea)and Dmowski (who wanted strong, anti-German consolidated ethnic Polish state) somehow turned tragic for many eastern Poles: during the Riga peace talk, ending the Polish-Soviet war of 1920-21 the Soviets had offered Poland much bigger territory than Poland did take. Following Dmowski wish, Polish delegation took less, since the offered territories had only Polish minority [too few Poles to bother us]. But in such a way, those Poles were lost. It is a sad example how nationalism is inherently a kind of territorial claim (@ to all of you who claim that they are concerned with a nation but not with a state).

    The problem with nationalism in Poland is that it was always either anti-Russian or anti-German, it has never been self-centered. Any alliance with German nationalists, for example, would be seen as a “Hitler” option even nowadays. And anti-German narrative, recently launched by “reparation” meme by PIS, was clearly a success. Paradoxically, I think that Russia gets more slack than Germany from Poles, especially as Ukraina (Bandera legacy) has replaced Russia in the role of ‘the bad guy from the East’.

    BTW, Talking about nationalist scene in Poland, one must not forget about Janusz Korwin-Mikke, the eccentric national-liberal politician, recently MEP in Brussel, who has been a long-standing, lonely torch bearer in the Polish politics. Cleverly he put ND heritage aside, opting for the classical Anglo liberalism out of 19th century (which had a strong element of national pride aka Rule, Britannia!), married with the Austrian school of economy. I would say 19th century is actually his home time. And he has always had a great following among the youth! If a Polish Generation Zyklon has a leader, it is Korwin indeed!
    Very unsuccessful politician but a great, colourful teacher of ideas. The name of his most known party – Unia Polityki Realnej – Union for Realistic Politics, speaks for itself.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janusz_Korwin-Mikke

  103. @Thorfinnsson

    The German origins of much of America have been suppressed and obscured as a result of the disastrous 20th century.

    Yes, one could put it like that, I don’t get the impression that German heritage or a positive view of Germany are cultivated in the US…tbh I’ve also never gotten the impression that Trump has much of a positive connection to his German roots (which is ok with me, given how it seems increasingly likely he’ll do something truly disastrous in foreign policy I’m not keen on him being associated with Germany).

    Dachshunds are not just amusing but useful. They are excellent varminters.

    They were originally bred for hunting foxes, badgers and the like iirc.
    Small dogs can live fairly long anyway. 21 is really exceptional though.

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
  104. AaronB says:
    @Thorfinnsson

    Nazi nationalism was seriously flawed. Hitler said if the Germans lost to the Russians they were not the master race and deserved to be enslaved. The value of the German people depended on some temporary victory or defeat!

    This is appaling defeatism and materialism. The true attitude should be that the Germans are destined for eventual victory no matter what temporary defeat they suffer – and that the German people have value beyond any accident of history. Defeats are inevitable – if your culture does not have the spiritual resources to handle defeat, you’ll disappear after the first setback. As happened.

    If Israel was destroyed tomorrow and all Jews hounded out of the US Jews would still be convinced they are destined for eventual victory and it would not make them doubt their infinite value for one moment.

    But one defeat was enough for Hitler.

    It’s because he was ultimately immoral, cynical, and materialistic – any new nationalism must place itself on a much more secure spiritual and moral footing, and think in terms of centuries and millenia – not a single victory or defeat

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    , @Mitleser
  105. @German_reader

    Yes, one could put it like that, I don’t get the impression that German heritage or a positive view of Germany are cultivated in the US…tbh I’ve also never gotten the impression that Trump has much of a positive connection to his German roots (which is ok with me, given how it seems increasingly likely he’ll do something truly disastrous in foreign policy I’m not keen on him being associated with Germany).

    This was all suppressed during WW1.

    That said it still exists in some folk celebrations. I live in Wisconsin, which is the most German state in the Union. Milwaukee in the 19th century was known as the German Athens on the Prairie.

    Take for instance the rural community of Kiel, Wisconsin. Named after Kiel in Schleswig-Holstein.

    The main street of the town flies the German tricolor from every street lamp, and the town has a German-style brass band which plays on every outdoor festival. I drive through Kiel many weekends in the summer as it hosts one of America’s best race tracks, where I race with fellow track rats.

    Track rats are also a major source of Germanophilia and nationalism here. Unlike FrogTwitter NEETs, we also have money and actually make things happen in the corridors of power.

    Trump is proud of his late German roots, as was his late father. He is also much better on the rapefugee question than your own government. If nothing else you Germans should take pride that someone from the Rhineland became the President of the world’s most powerful empire. :)

    Germans were also essential in Sweden’s development, and we saved you from papist domination.

    Remember that we Americans are victims of the Empire as well. Those of us in the Resistance, many of German origins, are with you 100%.

    • Replies: @German_reader
  106. @AaronB

    There were indeed many, many flaws with the H-man and Nazism.

    But Monday morning quarterbacking is so easy,

    • Replies: @AaronB
  107. AaronB says:
    @Thorfinnsson

    Fair enough, but I’m not criticizing strategy.

    On the level of fundamental principle, you don’t make the value of the German people hinge on the outcome of one conflict. That’s so cynical and materialistic. Defeats are inevitable. Germans are eternal (or should be).

    Any new nationalism must place itself on former footing – with an eye to centuries.

  108. @Thorfinnsson

    Trump is proud of his late German roots, as was his late father. He is also much better on the rapefugee question than your own government. If nothing else you Germans should take pride that someone from the Rhineland became the President of the world’s most powerful empire.

    tbh I got the impression that Trump and has family deemphasized their German origins because they weren’t exactly helpful in their business dealings with New York Jews after Nazism and the Holocaust. I seem to recall having read somewhere they actually even claimed to be Swedes for some time.
    And you can believe me, I’d like to take pride in a part-German US president :-) Unfortunately though I can’t really be enthusiastic about Trump’s actions so far, and it looks like it will get worse, possibly even with war against Iran or North Korea. That also makes Trump’s stance on the “refugee” invasion somewhat irrelevant. It could even be argued that in some ways he’s helping Merkel…who can pretend to be a competent stateswoman (which she isn’t of course) by comparison.

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
  109. @Another Polish Perspective

    Paradoxically, I think that Russia gets more slack than Germany from Poles, especially as Ukraina (Bandera legacy) has replaced Russia in the role of ‘the bad guy from the East’.

    Ukraine is seen as the bad guy in Poland?

  110. songbird says:
    @German_reader

    I think at base there is the near historical example of the Balkans – naval embargo, a lot of US air power used to contain Serbs and prevent them from retaking their own territory. Tens of thousands of peacekeepers, some even from Muslim countries like Turkey, Egypt, and Malaysia. Basically, imagine that instead of the Reconquista all the routes out of Asturias were bombed and then blocked by peacekeepers. The actual level of violence might be low, but the results would still be pretty disastrous.

    I don’t expect them to say something like “Germany is having a civil war, so let’s stay out, and let them settle their own affairs.” It hasn’t been true of countless places – Syria to give the latest example.

    I don’t expect Euro Americans to be too enthusiastic, but there are plenty of others now who might be, especially if it were painted in moralistic terms of needing to fight “Nazis.” Many would probably be sitting behind drone controls anyway, so it is not like their courage would fail them.

    • Replies: @German_reader
  111. @songbird

    Balkans scenario was somewhat different, because the Bosnians and Albanians had very deep roots in the area and not really anywhere else to go (not true for the “refugees” in Germany and Sweden). Serbs also aren’t really a prominent ethnicity in the US, whereas many Americans have some family connection to Germany or Sweden.
    But at least for now such a scenario is total fiction anyway. We just don’t know what would happen.

  112. @German_reader

    Never heard of Wołyń massacre?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacres_of_Poles_in_Volhynia_and_Eastern_Galicia

    Recently a film has been made, after many years of stonewalling the theme:

    • Replies: @German_reader
  113. Mitleser says:
    @AaronB

    The true attitude should be that the Germans are destined for eventual victory no matter what temporary defeat they suffer –

    any new nationalism must place itself on a much more secure spiritual and moral footing

    Like this?

    • LOL: German_reader
    • Replies: @AaronB
  114. DFH says:
    @Another Polish Perspective

    Are Poles now really more anti-German than anti-Russian?

    My grandfather always hated the USSR and never really mentioned Germans, but he was born in Kresy and his older brother was shot in Katyn.

  115. @German_reader

    Yes, Trump’s father pretended to be Swedish in order to get money from the the Jews.

    Personally I find this quite amusing, but my father hates Trump over this.

    • Replies: @songbird
  116. AaronB says:
    @Mitleser

    I’d like to come back with a witty reply, but I don’t really understand that. What does that refer to?

    • Replies: @Mitleser
  117. songbird says:
    @Thorfinnsson

    Seems to me that he showed good judgment. It is not for nothing that his son is called Druempf.

  118. @Another Polish Perspective

    Well yes, I know that the Ukrainian nationalists committed some pretty extreme atrocities against Poles during WW2, so I understand that the pro-Bandera sentiment among some present-day Ukrainian nationalists isn’t viewed positively in Poland. I’m just surprised that you stated Ukraine is seen as “the bad guy”, as if that’s some general sentiment. I would have thought that views on Ukraine/Russia are more mixed and ambiguous.

  119. To add to my American Germanophilia, one of my close colleagues who also owns 10% of my company was born in Rostock, Germany in 1942. His family hails from Thuringia. His father was killed on the Eastern Front in 1944.

    He came to New York in 1952, and as a result speaks with the New York dialect–Brooklyn in particular.

    As a young man he worked as a lineman and attended night school to become a mechanical engineer. He worked for AT&T for many years.

    Despite being 76, he still works every day. He creates all of our spec sheets and designs our sheet metal.

    Thoroughly Americanized, but still speaks German. He likes to joke that if only Germany had had me they would’ve won the war. :)

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  120. Mitleser says:
    @AaronB

    A poster fom the “A Greater Britain” universe, depicting Ernst Kessler, leader of the Fourth Reich.

    https://edthomasten.deviantart.com/art/German-Poster-c-1975-166708261

    In this alternate history, the Third Reich got defeated as well, though not as badly.
    Decades later, the revolutionary Ernst Kessler overthrow the increasingly decrepit military regime which had ruled Germany and established the Fourth Reich.

    • Replies: @AaronB
  121. @DFH

    It depends on personal experience. But generally, I would say, that percentage of Poles who had bad experiences with Germans is greater than percentage of Poles who had bad experiences with Russian, relative to the respective probe.
    There is saying about Russia in Poland: a terrible state, but great people. There is nothing comparable on Germans. There is a meme of a “good Russian” but not of a “good German”.
    Narodowa Demokracja, a party formed in “Prussian” part of Poland, was explicitly anti-German. No party after WWI was anti-Russian to this extend.

    Polish-German relations are poisoned by racial undertones since 18th century at least when Frederic the Great justified partitions (and he was a driving force, not Catharine the Great) by claiming that Poles are Iroquois of Europe, in the grave need of “civilization”. Germany has played this card again and again: currently we need to be subdued again, this time for a greater sake of EU.
    The ideology of racial hierarchy made Germans equal to Anglo-Saxons, but clearly above the Slavs. Since there is quite strong Anglophilia (but not Americanophilia) in Germany (hard to understand if you know history, but nowadays Germans do not know history; however, another way of explaining it is that the racial kinship is what counts above all), the German racism may be hard to notice for you, since you are not object of it. Nikolai Trubetzkoi essay on Europa nowadays is valid as ever.

    After WWI it was said Germany has four pillars: 1) civil servants (Beamtentum), 2) industry, 3) Junkers, 4) officer corps. Junkers and officer corps were liquidated, but effectively irresponsible civil servants do rule Germany, a country of weak legislative and omnipotent executive.
    You may hear about scandals in Germany (Mollath, Duisburg love parade etc), but you will never hear that someone has ever been punished. The civil servants have their own special law (Beamtenrecht), which secures their “moral superiority”, the law much more benevolent than the law for “commoners”, or all the rest.

    The best book on German society is, paradoxically, the infamous book on Japan by Karl van Wolferen, ‘The Enigma of Japanese Power’. There are many parallels: omnipotent bureacracy, irrelevancy of elections, industry as driving force, mythology of being ‘special’ [read: better], intimidation as a recognized mechanism of social control (there is no civic spirit in Germany, Germans are essentially cowards, or Untertanen – subjects of the state).
    If you read German, the good book is by Arthur Rosenberg, “Entstehung und Geschichte der Weimarer Republik”.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Enigma_of_Japanese_Power

    If you disagree, I shall retract the day when Polonophilia appears in Germany ;)

  122. @German_reader

    Ukrainian nationalism is anti-Polish and anti-Russian, and it seems no other way is possible.

    Ukrainians do not want to concede their crimes claiming Polish crimes, what, after a period of sympathetic [read: anti-Russian] overreach by Poles, currently backfires. There is a sense of humiliation by Ukraine in Poland, which is so much more painful, as Ukraine is essentially a pretty weak state.

    The infamous “Holocaust law” was a law equally inspired by and directed against Ukrainian claims of Polish crimes.

    • Replies: @German_reader
    , @AP
  123. @Another Polish Perspective

    I happen to like Poles, but the idea of Germany being better than Poland doesn’t seem wrong to me.

    In general I think we northwest, Germanic, protestant Europeans are the best people in the world.

    There’s something about us that other people simply do not have.

    Exemptions for the Catholic Germans and Swiss, the French, and the northern Italians. And of course the Japanese.

    • Replies: @DFH
  124. @Another Polish Perspective

    Since there is quite strong Anglophilia

    That may have existed before 1914 (though even then there were views of Britain as the Carthage of the North Sea, a nation of conniving shopkeepers scheming against German heroes), but it’s pretty much dead today, Anglo-German relations are quite frosty.

  125. @Another Polish Perspective

    Ukrainian nationalism is anti-Polish and anti-Russian, and it seems no other way is possible

    Umm, why? It’s not like there are still any real unresolved border issues between Ukraine and Poland as far as I know.
    No offense, but the Polish right is too stuck in the past imo.

    • Agree: Thorfinnsson
    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
  126. @German_reader

    Agreed.

    Complaining about Germany and Russia today is ridiculous.

    We have bigger fish to fry.

    But I suppose conditions in Poland are different…for now.

  127. @German_reader

    This Anglo wants good relations with Germany.

    Though the trade issue requires adjustment in our favor.

  128. @German_reader

    I am not sure. I happen to know a German girl, whose parents went into debt just to send her to the English public school. Such a level of idolatry I have never met in Poland.

    Also, quite a lot of German academics want to go to UK and do not want to go back (sic!).

    I still remember SWR2 (German state radio) Sendung after Brexit, there was this theme day on Sunday, and the general tone was: Oh, my God, those cute English are leaving us! what we will do, what we will do, oh my God, so cute the English are!
    Those lawns, greyhounds, and eccentricities, and TRUE democracy are leaving us, oh my God!

    Finally: I remember the cover of “Spotlight”, a magazine for students of English, with a cover “Why do we love the English so much?”. Exactly, why??!

    • Replies: @German_reader
  129. DFH says:
    @Thorfinnsson

    In general I think we northwest, Germanic, protestant Europeans are the best people in the world.

    German accomplishments are greatly overrated; less than France and Britain and probably about equal to those of Italians. Scandinavians are only notable in history for their plundering and warmongering; their contribution is certainly inferior to that of Spain or Poland.

  130. Anonymous[242] • Disclaimer says:
    @Thorfinnsson

    What is the state of manufacturing in Wisconsin?

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
  131. My own understanding is that Poles view Russia as an adversary, while Bandera Ukraine is just a bunch of vicious morons without any redeeming qualities whatsorever.

    Concerning attitudes towards Germans, well, I used to frequent a Polish nationalist bar in Berlin, personally I never had a problem. Typically, if you are a german and dont have that stupid “holier then thou! we Germans know bestest!” attitude poles tend to be positivly surprised and you get invited to some beer.

    • Replies: @szopen
  132. @Another Polish Perspective

    Also, quite a lot of German academics want to go to UK and do not want to go back

    That’s because the German university system is horrible.
    I don’t get the impression at all that there’s much Anglophilia in Germany, tbh there’s probably a perception that Brits (like Poles) go on rather too much about WW2 and are inherently anti-German.

  133. Anon[298] • Disclaimer says:
    @DFH

    less than France and Britain

    equal to those of Italians

    Two phrases which belong in separate sentences.

  134. @reiner Tor

    I have to admit, the hilarious hijinks of Telsa(identifying a fire truck as open space, exploding in a fire station, running down pedestrian in half-life) and so on have not affirmed my faith in AI as of late.

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    , @reiner Tor
  135. @DFH

    Mercedes Benz and BMW. Not to mention German machine tools.

    As for Scandinavians, plundering and warmongering are achievements.

    And then we have the great success of Swedish industry. Every time you make a phone call, thank a Swede.

  136. @German_reader

    here’s probably a perception that Brits (like Poles) go on rather too much about WW2 and are inherently anti-German.

    That too, but you still like them. Germans forgive the English a lot, but not vice versa. Germans aspire to be English (or to the English way of life), but not vice versa.

    True, German system is still a feudal cult/priesthood of “Lehrstuhl”, but well, UK is a direction of aspiration, not US for example.

    I measure the level of relevant -philia by the absence of criticism. The criticism towards UK is negligible, especially when compared with sometimes already bordering on fanaticism criticism of Poland. In a way Poland is more criticized than Hungary, which I also find a kind of racist, since – if at all – Hungary is currently more illiberal than Poland. And Czechs, being a former part of the Holy German Empire, are criticized only a little bit!

  137. @Anonymous

    It’s quite strong. I manufacture in Wisconsin.

    There’s a very powerful manufacturing belt stretching from Milwaukee to Green Bay which features powerhouses like Bucyrus Erie, Johnson Controls, and Mercury Marine.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  138. @Daniel Chieh

    Are you shorting Tesla?

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  139. @German_reader

    Two World Wars and one World Cup. :)

  140. @Thorfinnsson

    Since early this year. Which given my track record, probably means that Telsa is soon to go on to wild success.

  141. @Another Polish Perspective

    Don’t know, I’ve just never noticed Anglophilia quite like you describe it.
    Regarding criticism/lecturing of Poland, I can see how this is especially resented by Poles when it’s coming from Germans. But I’m not sure it really has that much connection to any specifically German traditions of Polonophobia, let alone any anti-Slav racial theories. It seems more like generic pan-Western shitlibbery to me.

  142. @DFH

    Yeah, that’s nonsense (and I am not a fan of Germany by any means, Ivan Ilyin warned against trusting them too much).

    They are about equal to Greater Britain in accomplishment, especially at elite levels, and are considerably higher than France and Italy: https://wmjas.wordpress.com/2012/07/02/german-dominance-at-the-very-highest-levels-of-accomplishment/

  143. @Another Polish Perspective

    I don’t know the situation in Germany, but in Russia Anglophilia is definitely much more of a thing than Americanophilia (not just the oligarchs but the middle classes).

    The obsession with London, British universities, boarding schools (Hogwarts Syndrome, etc).

    This is especially frustrating because at this point Britain is basically a fag civilization while the US still has many useful things worth learning.

  144. songbird says:
    @German_reader

    That’s because the German university system is horrible.

    Maybe so, but at least it is cheap. I’ve always gotten the impression that Germany has a better public school system too – with tracks, but I bet that is under political pressure with all the diversity.

    • Replies: @German_reader
  145. @Anatoly Karlin

    I always find those tables about accomplishments very dubious, just adding up significant figures doesn’t seem very meaningful. There’s also the issue that imo one would have to distinguish different time periods for any comparison (e.g. northern and central Italy were very innovative in the late middle ages and early modern era, but then became somewhat of a backwater for centuries).

    • Replies: @utu
    , @Thorfinnsson
  146. @songbird

    I’ve always gotten the impression that Germany has a better public school system too – with tracks, but I bet that is under political pressure with all the diversity.

    Not just because of diversity, but more generally because of the braindead egalitarianism of the left. Their dream has always been to demolish the three-tiered school system and replace it with comprehensive schools. There’s also a general erosion of standards (especially in states run by the left, in Baden-Württemberg Social Democrats and Greens have managed to wreck the school system in just a few years) and all manner of idiotic schemes like closing down schools for children with behavioral issues and putting them into the normal system.

    • Replies: @songbird
  147. @Anatoly Karlin

    Murray in his “Human Accomplishment” book has maps where he localizes the significant scientific and cultural achievements. In case of Germany there is huge discrepancy between Rhine-zone and South-Zone, where most of accomplishment were located with a dearth of such in Brandenburg/Berlin and East Prussia (lonely Kant there). Essentially a long, cross-national zone from North Italy through Rhine until Low Countries is a zone of highest concentration of human accomplishment in Europe: the zone contains parts of Germany, France, Switzerland, Italy, Netherlands, Belgium. Everywhere else (Poland, Spain etc) are just islands of it.
    Hard to believe, however, that Scandinavia scores higher than Netherlands. What exactly did come out of Scandinavia, besides Kierkegaard, Ibsen, Munch, Bergman, Sibelius, Nobel, Linnaeus?

    • Replies: @utu
    , @Thorfinnsson
    , @notanon
  148. @Anatoly Karlin

    Yes, in Germany it is Anglophilia together with Antiamericanism. Even more strange, if one knows from history that UK has had much longer tradition of anti-German politics than USA. It was Churchill who wanted to partition Germany forever…

    I would say a middle class is even more into Anglophilia than the upper class, especially as Anglophilia has been almost always a question of STYLE, a thing which middle class, with its narcissism of small differences (the only Freud’s concept I appreciate) especially covets. However, there is not much upper class in Germany anymore… nevertheless once I happened to be in a (state) university class with one of descendants of von Zeppelins. She was actually quite a pleasant girl, and was studying history.
    The ambitious, driven middle class is almost always into law or political science.

    Fags are a natural by-product of a public school system, aren’t they?

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  149. songbird says:
    @German_reader

    One thing that honestly impressed me in Germany was that it seemed to me that students had a certain dignity or respect that they were afforded, which seemed to be missing from my rather mixed public school.

    In a general sense, in the US, it is very easy to get the impression that school is like prison. Many even have a policeman nowadays. They REALLY count the minutes of every school day. They are always looking to add another minute somehow, cutting the time between classes or lunch, or making the day longer, or by adding a day. When I went to high school, nearly all the bathrooms were locked but one, which you had to sign in to use. You could not even walk outside during lunch. During class, you needed a pass to be outside a classroom. It seemed to even get worse every year. It got to the point where they wanted a doctor’s note, if you were sick, and stayed home for the day.

    To contrast that a bit with Germany, I saw a girl lying on a bench once in the cafeteria during class and nobody was bothering her. Unthinkable, at my school.

    • Replies: @German_reader
  150. @songbird

    That sounds horrible, was that authoritarianism an attempt to deal with the “vibrancy” of the student body?
    Discipline in German schools is probably quite soft, maybe too soft (e.g. from what I’ve heard the French school system is quite a bit stricter).

    • Replies: @songbird
  151. @Anatoly Karlin

    I dislike the Greater Germany concept and counting Copernicus as a German. The German culture is not a culture of freedom, but of service. But sometimes you need some freedom to create and to discuss. That said, fringe German speaking cultures – Switzerland (remember that Nietzsche really started to write and to publish in Basel), or former German speaking province of Poland, namely, the Royal Prussia – were so virulently anti-German (anti-Prussian) as they could be. And yet, there is no better sign of German sense of superiority (or enmity to Slavs) that the fact that the republican, democratic culture of Royal Polish Prussia, with Schopenhauer maybe the most known exponent (virulently anti-Prussian burgher of Danzig who later inspired Nietzsche who later inspired equally anti-German Burckhardt in Basel) was almost totally excluded from the German Kultur and sentenced to damnatio memoriae.

    • Replies: @utu
  152. Anonymous[283] • Disclaimer says:
    @Matra

    That’s a good point. People have always been cynical about newspapers but for some reason they thought TV was honest truth.

  153. songbird says:
    @German_reader

    By “mixed”, I was speaking a bit more about ability. My school would have been considered relatively white, though some inner city blacks were bused in. It is hard to be sure, but I really suspect race formed part of the motivations for some things.

    The counting of minutes I really feel was motivated by race – it was a statewide policy. Nothing like it existed in my parents’ time, even when I was younger, it had been much more lax. I think it was part of a drive to close racial gaps – they were always experimenting with things, changing the way the day was ordered, or how things were taught, to try and improve learning.

    It is hard to say for certain why the cop was there – it may have been the fear of school shootings – I remember one year for a while we had the really crazy policy of not being allowed to carry your book bag between classes. Most of the doors were also locked from the outside. They searched lockers with a drug-sniffing dog. I suspect the cop was mostly there because of the blacks though. The US is extremely sensitive to race and also has too many lawyers, so I think cops are often required to do things, to prevent others from being sued. I know sometimes, the blacks would say really aggressive things to some of the teachers, who were afraid to do anything, for fear of being sued.

    Two or three times, people called in bomb threats as a joke, and they would herd us all together somewhere, sometimes for a couple of hours while the school was being searched – we couldn’t leave. There is really a lot of stupidity in the governance of American schools that probably comes from race issues. To give an example, I heard the story of a guy being suspended because they found a pocket knife in the back of his pickup truck. In the ’70s, people would take their hunting guns to school.

    But, I think I would generally consider myself lucky, not to have gone to a worse school. Still, at the time, it was easy to think that, if the school was just most of the people in my classes, who were smarter and better behaved, that it wouldn’t have been so bad – that we would have been treated with more respect.

  154. dfordoom says: • Website
    @songbird

    I don’t think even a fully third-world US would drop nukes on Europe

    But they wouldn’t be dropping nukes on Europeans, they’d be dropping nukes on Evil Nazis. Americans would be fine with that.

  155. LatW says:
    @Polish Perspective

    Another problem is that many right-wing nationalists use too hysterical language in the short-term, which makes them easy to dismiss.

    Indeed, sensationalism and alarmism can come off as primitive, off-putting and borderline trashy so, of course, the argumentation has to be rational. My only reason for being alarmist is that it’s better to pre-empt things. As you already describe in your other comments, things are changing (when you said Warsaw will be like Moscow in 10 years, that really bothered me…). As one of our nationalists said about the refugee quotas – right now we’re just fighting against the idea, but imagine how it will be when we’ll have to fight against real human beings, when we’re put face to face with them. We should get our own house in order and prioritize our own populations. A lot of issues – such as male employment that has a direct effect on fertility, and similar – can be dressed in non-sensationalist, “non-racist” arguments. Another big issue is freedom – while it’s not a problem in Eastern Europe yet, as more complexity is introduced into society, it becomes less free. Also, that kind of antifa / rainbow crowd as seen in those pics that you posted above… we don’t have those yet. Or at least not in significant numbers.

    I’m interested in the surviving and thriving of my people and the key reason why Poland as a national state was founded in the first place was to safeguard this.

    This goes without saying (I wouldn’t be interested in investing in any state that is not based on ethno-nationalist principles). But don’t let them hijack your colors – it’s not that bad yet. :) I saw you brought up religion in one of your comments – sorry for unsolicited advice, but just let it go. We decided a long time ago to keep religion separate and private (people find their own group) and just focus on the issues at hand. I wish you luck.

    Also, a little piece of intel re:SD. My friend who in fact will be running in one of the municipalities, says that they’re hoping to increase their mandate by about 1/4 – both in Riksdag and in the regions. The share of female voters has also increased slightly as some women came to SD from the Social Democrat electorate. AfS is a former youth wing of SD that broke away because it was considered too “radical”.

    Btw, if SD really ratted on NMR to Expo, that is real cretinism. It is not atypical, though.

  156. utu says:
    @Another Polish Perspective

    Hard to believe, however, that Scandinavia scores higher than Netherlands.

    Can you name Dutch writer or playwright? I can’t. Besides you left out Grieg, Swedenborg, Strindberg and many scientists like Norwegian mathematician Abel.

  157. utu says:
    @Another Polish Perspective

    The German culture is not a culture of freedom, but of service.

    Did you come up with this by yourself? Probably you meant to contrast it with Poland as culture of freedom and poor service. I have been to restaurants in Poland and service was horrible. It was way back and recently it improved as the bad capitalists curtailed their freedom to work as they please.

  158. @Another Polish Perspective

    Your definition of nationalism is extremely broad, and if you don’t mind me saying so, cucked. You’re including openly civnat politicians and as such I cannot take your opinions seriously. Korwin-Micke is anything but a ethno-nationalist, for instance. He’s a libertarian. Even if you think he failed, even as a failed example he doesn’t belong since he isn’t a nationalist in the first place.

    This is common in Poland, due to us being very homogenous still. Therefore people still mix in civnats who say things about other countries as “nationalists”. Trump also defends the US interest abroad in trade & foreign policy (if you’re willing to exclude MENA), but that doesn’t mean he is an American nationalist in the proper sense (ethnic understanding of who and what constitutes the American nation).

  159. @German_reader

    Ukraine is seen as the bad guy in Poland?

    There is a tendency among nations to obsess over those most closest to them. Before Ukrainians came to work in Poland in large numbers, I never heard much about this obsession with Ukrainians. I think a parallel is to the UK where opinions on Poles are quite strong among a minority, even if the majority quite like us, simply because a huge amount of Poles showed up in a short time.

    There’s something similar going on here now. Most of us like Ukrainians but there is a very loud minority of idiots who obsess over them.

    I’ve talked to a number of supposed Polish nationalists who think that Ukrainians are a bigger problem than the creeping 3rd worldification of Poland and that guy is a typical example of a walled-in mind who can’t see the bigger picture. It’s one of our problems. Most Poles like Ukrainians, one-off voices like him regardless, but those who don’t are a very loud minority, just like those Brits who don’t like Poles are.

    Furthermore, his anti-German feelings gives me the distinct sense that he’s probably quite a bit older than me. I’ve noted to you before that anti-German feelings is very strongly correlated with age in my experience. I agree with you wrt your point that some forms of Polish nationalism is very insular and against everything and everyone. It’s a disease which is also thankfully slowly going away among the youth, as they understand the world is bigger than just Central and Eastern Europe, unlike those older than us.

    • Replies: @German_reader
  160. @utu

    Bad service is a legacy of communism, and was endemic in all formerly communist countries. But it improved a lot since 1990.

    • Replies: @utu
  161. @utu

    Ignore him. The guy is obviously obsessed with Germany with a typical victimhood/inferiority complex. As I’ve pointed out many times, this is often correlated with age in Poland. I’m 20. I’m willing to bet he’s significantly older than me (though I wouldn’t put past him lying about it, in order to avoid getting stereotyped by me). I don’t see this kind of complex among my peers and it is thankfully going away.

    • Replies: @utu
  162. Anonymous[237] • Disclaimer says:
    @Thorfinnsson

    Considering the divergence in manufacturing in different regions of the country with Wisconsin doing well and South Carolina struggling, the most important factor is HBD. Both automation and foreign competition are red herrings.

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
  163. DFH says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    Four of the eighteen ‘Germans’ listed there are Jews.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    , @reiner Tor
  164. @Daniel Chieh

    The big problem is that this will be solved. Mostly. So such things will only happen rarely. Like once in a year. Or once in a century. Very good for a car. Very bad for a super-AI capable of destroying us all.

    It’s difficult to know how or why it identifies an open space as an open space. So it’s difficult to know how or why it does so with a fire truck. Yes, it’s a simple problem, and a simple “AI,” so it can be understood by applying enough engineer-hours to the problem. But if a super-AI suddenly decided it wanted to exterminate all humanity, or all biological life, it will be a very complex problem, and a very complex software. You won’t have a chance of understanding why it happened, or how it could be prevented. Cause you won’t even understand why it doesn’t want to exterminate us when it’s functioning properly.

  165. @Polish Perspective

    I have to admit much of the Polish right seems inordinately obsessed with WW2 issues in a way I find difficult to understand, it really feels like they intend to use it for grievance-mongering for all eternity.
    I don’t expect Poles to like Germany (certainly not its present government, maybe also not German companies operating in Poland), but still, it would be nice if Polish right-wingers recognized that on a fundamental level the old Polish-German conflict is over. There are no outstanding border issues, and hundreds of thousands of Poles are living in Germany, with very few tensions.
    Even Russia has acknowledged Soviet responsibility for Katyn. No border issues here either.
    As for Ukraine, I find it difficult to understand if some Poles really feel “humiliated” by that rather dysfunctional and troubled country.
    Seems all a bit out of proportion to me.

  166. @DFH

    I counted two (Einstein and Paul Ehrlich), maybe three if you added Herschel (who might be part Jewish). Did I miss someone?

    • Replies: @utu
    , @DFH
  167. utu says:
    @German_reader

    The insanity Americans were driven to by media just before entering WWI is hard to imagine. It was accomplished by print media (no radio or TV). If people were illiterate they would not be able to do it on this scale.

    It was a very sad and scary time for Germans in the US. The melting pot metaphor is out of place. It was more like a bone crusher than a melting pot. Germans were changing names en masse, changing names of streets in German towns and cities like Cincinnati, names of their businesses… Liberty cabbage…From the point of view of Anglos it was very successful. Germans ceased to be. They became invisible.

    Has anything changed since? With TV it is bound to be worse. Just because French did not support the war in Iraq they became cheese eating surrender monkeys and French fries became freedom fries.

  168. @DFH

    Anyway, even assuming it’s just 14 Germans, there were 16 from the Anglosphere (including the USA), with a larger population. Doesn’t corroborate your assertion of their contributions being below Britain.

    • Replies: @DFH
  169. utu says:
    @reiner Tor

    I know. I just wanted to get a clarification on this young man’s potentially profound insight ‘not a culture of freedom, but of service.’ I have already let slide another one: ‘there is no civic spirit in Germany, Germans are essentially cowards.’ I am sure also based on years of personal experience and painstaking research.

  170. Dmitry says:
    @LatW

    It would still be cheap for a degree from a West European university – just to pay living costs and no tuition fees. Probably you would spend $15,000 or a little more for modest living costs of a year in Stockholm? But you would have a relaxing year off work.

    • Replies: @LatW
  171. Anonymous[820] • Disclaimer says:
    @German_reader

    Which side do you think Hillary and the neocons would have taken?

  172. utu says:
    @Polish Perspective

    Thanks. He is full of opinions and very shallow stereotypes. Perhaps he is 15 and just recycling what he learned from his grandpa.

  173. utu says:
    @German_reader

    I agree. But then we should look at lists like these prepared in other countries except that in other countries they do not have obsessions with rankings like Americans do. Murray, if he could, would list IQ’s as well.

    Anglophone world downplays accomplishments of other cultures. Lists should be separated for different fields. Why Shakespeare or Bach are on the same list with Leibniz and Gauss? BTW, in many countries Shakespeare would not be on top. Also one may ask why Newton is on top in science or math? I would consider Euclid as more important than Newton in math.

    As far as 19 and firsts half of 20 century math and physics and chemistry Germany beats UK by wide margin, imo. But in literature it is very hard to say. For instance in continental Europe Stendhal is considered as having great impact on modern novel but his The Red and the Black was not translated into English until 1900. How much of Goethe was translated?

    Also one could do a list by the numbers of hits on google. J. K. Rowling would probably beat Shakespeare.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
  174. utu says:
    @reiner Tor

    DFH seems not to care for German accomplishments.

    • Replies: @DFH
  175. @utu

    Murray’s list of literature only uses the other language publications, so Shakespeare is considered the greatest by non-Anglos. Certainly in Hungary. (Though I doubt Murray used any Hungarian language publication.)

    Music is where Germans were the greatest by the widest margin.

    But overall it’s just a number, something to orient, reality is always more complex. It’s like the neverending debate about PPP or nominal GDP, when even GDP itself is questionable. Its validity is limited, but those who totally dismiss it altogether also make an error, like Martyanov who claims that Russia is the greatest, despite any number you can come up with.

  176. szopen says:
    @Another Polish Perspective

    Korwin is not and cannot be leader, because he is a prime example of what I was writing about. He does not care abotu nation. He is monarchist and thinks nationalism is evil.

  177. szopen says:
    @Mightypeon

    In different meetings I have participated I was always pleasantly surprised by Germans – I got better along with Germans than with ENglish or Americans.

    As for Ukrainians, personally I have no issue with them and I even like them. I also know lot of peopl with a very rosy picture of Ukrainians. THe problem is Bandera and the fact that Ukrainians do not admit UPA’s massacres of Poles; and I know quite a lot of people who were sympathetic to Ukraine, but right now got a bit impatient (“we were so nice to them and yet they do not even admit UPA was criminal organization!”).

    Personally, I think we either have to got along with Ukrainians or we are doomed to be mediocre state, eternal pawn of larger powers.

  178. szopen says:
    @German_reader

    I have to admit much of the Polish right seems inordinately obsessed with WW2 issues i

    It should be understandable and I’m puzzled it’s not. We are relatively young nation, which was poor and udner foreign yoke. That means we yearn for success, respect and such like. I think it will take us another two decades or so till people will start to relax.

  179. @utu

    It was memory-based list, this too (except Vitelius, I just remembered the anatomic theater idea):
    Rembrandt, Hughyens, Vermeer, Spinoza, Hieronimus Bosch, Grotius , Decartes (conditionally), Vesalius (anatomical theater)
    Besides, the Dutch had entire schools of geniuses.
    The Flemish school of painting, the Flemish school of polyphony (Josquin, Obrecht, du Fay etc). Dutch cartography. In the XVIIth century they had a highest number of technical inventions (patents) in seafaring, taking lead of Italians and the Portuguese. They created merchant capitalism of chartered companies, UNFORTUANTELY.
    Ever heard about VOC?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_East_India_Company

    And, for a time being, the Dutch singularly opposed the English at the sea successfully indeed. Who else did manage that? And, well, they de-blocked Danzig during Polish-Swedish wars of 17th century. The mighty Swedish fleet escaped before the sound only of De Ruyter name, not even trying to fight.

    Very interesting Dutch writer, Louis Couperus. In De stille Kracht (Hidden force) already in 19th century he depicted very well the power of swarthy attraction which is exercised upon white women. BTW, I remember when studying at Warsaw University, that the highest number of candidates per place was for Iberistic (Spanish studies) and that were almost exclusively women! Not to speak that in Warsaw there is the biggest Cervantes Institute in the world.
    In this perspective, you do not really appreciate how the lonely torch bearer, Korwin-Mikke have opposed feminism through all those years when the Catholic Church was silent and others too. You have this unitary vision of nationalism, German-like centered on purity, which should magically order everything else. But is a bit boring and often Cargo cult due to its essentialism.
    And things do not go so neatly, swarthy attraction goes independently of feminism too. Since you are so young (ONR is always young, and not much more) I suggest you read up on Simon Mol scandal in Poland, I was a student at that time. Some of Mol victims were conservative Catholic women. BTW, Korwin-Mikke was one of the first to protest against immigrants contingents and call the madness by its name in 2015. All in all, he made much more for education of the youth than ONR.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon_Mol

    BTW, in Poland there is no US-style civic nationalism, and never has been. Sarmatism was based on genetic idea too. Poland is more tribal, more something like Italy than Germany. There has never been much classical ethno nationalism of purity in Poland, and its civic legacy (endecja) is tainted. Ziemkiewicz and Co are trying to re-launch it, but without much success I would say. The attack on Pilsudski Legend is at least a step in the right direction, but shows how long and stony the way will be.

    @ Polish Perspective

  180. DFH says:
    @reiner Tor

    I incorrectly thought Robert Koch was Jewish, in my mind I think I had got him confused with Haber.

  181. @utu

    I suppose it is a content of the so-called German “Sonderweg” thesis: Germany is not a fully Western state (in a sense of culture) due to the lacking revolution (Bundschuch revolt does not count), ergo lacking civic spirit. Germany has been always ordered top-down and with force (German unification).
    BTW, I am around 30, live in Germany currently and know German language. Like many who observed Germans in their natural habitat, I lost many illusions.

    In Poland, Feliks Konieczny, a Polish version of Toynbee, put Germany in the same basket as Russia and Mongols, as so-called Turanian civilization, a structure dominated by military culture and the leader worship, with a weak objective ethics. He even thought that Peter the Great infected Russia with German Beamtentum culture of ranks (Geheimerat, ,Hofrat etc). And, it is telling how common ideas about Kant are perverted in Germany: my landlord liked to talk about duty (Pflicht), summoning Kant, but forgetting that this duty is shaped by the perspective of transcendental subject. In other words, Kantian duty is not a blind obedience, as my landlord would like it.

    • Replies: @utu
  182. DFH says:
    @reiner Tor

    I think that the measure given by taking the top people according to Murray’s indexes is not a very good one, and worse as a measure of accomplishment than Murray’s method.
    Just from examining the list, it contains many figures who do not merit ‘super-great’ status like Paracelsus, Herschel and Thomas Hunt Morgan and an absurd bias towards artists and musicians over literary figures (which I assume must be an artifact of the differences in art/literary encyclopedias); for instance France has no author or poet on its list (whetheras the relative literary mediocrity Goethe is included).

  183. DFH says:
    @utu

    I like some German accomplishments (e.g. Fontane, Musil) a lot, I just don’t think they are equal to those of some other European countries.

    • Replies: @utu
  184. @szopen

    I suppose you were co-opted by Germans to oppose Americans (and their English support).

    Try to go to the meeting with only Germans present. Only the Polish and Germans.

  185. utu says:
    @Another Polish Perspective

    I’m glad you have a landlord. Hopefully a German one. At least you won’t suffer from Polnische Wirtschaft, you know, “a culture of freedom, but [no] service.”

    Koneczny, btw, put Germany in Byzantine civilization category not Turanian as you wrote. “Germany under Bismarck was an example of that type of civilization.” (wiki)

    I read one of his books. It was stale and dated. Perhaps translation was not the best. Imo, Koneczny sounds little bit kooky. Perhaps because he worked in isolation and was not challenged by his contemporaries who were not aware of his work or perhaps they ignored him thinking he was a kook. He feels like an autodidact. Very opinionated, making categorical statements without self reflection on their validity and how do they sound. Kind of like you.

  186. @German_reader

    It is a matter of respect and equality, of Germans not behaving like “those more equal animals” or Poland’s superior teachers. Let me give an example: on the basis of Polish-German treaty of 1991, a treaty which was partly forced upon Germany by the Allies as a condition of German unification so willed by Kohl, Germany should give back Poles in Germany the official status of national minority (and vice versa), taken away in 1940 if I remember well. Well, German minority has officially appeared in Poland, but the Polish one in Germany has not. Personally I do not think that in itself it is such an important matter: it is not 19th century now, but 21th and cultivating any culture abroad is much easier, due to net etc. However, if it is not such an important matter, why Germany – since 1991 – has been denying its obligation? And yet in the meantime Germany did make Gypsies an official minority in Germany: would I be entirely wrong if I read it as not so subtle statement “even Gypsies are more worthwhile and respected than Poles in Germany?”
    Actually, it is Germany here, not Poland, which seems to live on old ideas of nationalism, treating Poles as de facto “cultural infection to be healed by Germanization” but simultaneously celebrating German culture (minority) in Poland. And well, it seems that all German parties have the same position concerning that; there is not a single party which would like to solve this problem, and to fulfill German obligations as stated in 1991.

  187. utu says:
    @DFH

    IMHO: 19c and the first half of 20c Germany and France dominated physics and math. UK was behind. UK was weak in math already in 18c. The cult of Newton and his egocentric shenanigans killed math in UK.

    I wold think French and English were equally strong in literature in 18-20 century and Germany came form behind in late 19c with exception for Goethe.

    I liked Musil a lot. Also Broch from the same period. Both studies mathematics and physics.

  188. @utu

    Actually, Germany according to Koneczny was a mixed civilization: bureacracy was a Byzantian element, and military was a Turanian element. And, yes, Koneczny was a maverick out of 19th century, not less than German Spengler who wasn’t even an university professor like Koneczny. It seems that it was much easier to be an university professor as a maverick in Poland than in Germany. Koneczny is surely dated, but he has some interesting insights. His organic way of looking at human cultures was actually shared by Spengler, too.

    PS. I like Musil too, but he was studying engineering and was a Czech Austrian.

  189. @Polish Perspective

    I would caution you to ape West again (well, they love that, and expect that), this time as a nationalist. I would caution you to focus on labels only, too. Nominalism is one of the ideas behind West problems. It is true that for Germany and Scandinavia the refugee “invasion” is the first order problem, but it is not so for Poland. The justice system reform (personally I would prefer Anglo-Athenian-style jury system in Poland instead of unchecked judical activism as in civil law systems) is much more important here, for example. For Poland the functioning, transparent state and independent (from Germany too), strong economy are the most important things. As for Ukraine: instead of creating a Polish influence zone in Ukraine, Poland itself is becoming the zone of Ukrainian influence. That says all.

    • Replies: @Polish Perspective
  190. @Polish Perspective

    I suggest focusing on education, too. What I do like in Germany is the Bildung idea, it is still culture where there is a real appreciation for education. But I have noticed that Germans are often surprised that I am an educated Pole. And they are more surprised by my good English than by my German. Well, it only says that the common idea of a Pole in Germany is that of physical worker…. but also that education is still appreciated.
    And in Poland? Falling readership of books, a new A-level (Abitur) exam in Polish language where the standard is actually C1: the expected text should have only 250 words. And it was “nationalist” Roman Giertych who paved the way! Poland, like USA, has the anti-intellectual tradition: the ideas like chłopek-roztropek (simpleton), elita-jelita (wordplay, the elites are our intestines) , and zdolni ludzie są zdolni do wszystkiego (able people are able to do anything) are common here; the latter I actually heard from the priest! Maybe such ideas were once a kind of anti-Jewish defensive reflex: one must not be dazzled too much.I don’t know. But such ideas are responsible for a image of a dumb Pole who will take whatever is offered if nicely packed, too. How many people took the unlucky CHF mortgages? More than 1 million, entire generation, much too many.

  191. nebulafox says:
    @German_reader

    Wilhelm II was a… unique personality, to say the least. You never get bored reading about him and his ballerina imitating coterie. Psychiatrists would have a field day with him.

    In many ways, you could say that this half British/half Prussian hybrid who represented the schizophrenic new Germany, midway between east and west, tradition and modernity. He was quite intelligent, bombasticness aside, and unlike many of his generals, seemed to be dimly aware that a Europe-wide conflagration would be, you know, a bad thing. He had a genuine taste for science, infrastructure, and modernity-not for nothing would the Kaiser Wilhelm Institute in Berlin preside over the golden age of science. He also seemed to… genuinely care about the welfare of his working-class people, which put him ahead of many of his contemporaries.

    But he was a preening dilettante with no discipline, mental or otherwise (Bismarck, with typical pithiness, nailed it on the head when he said that Wilhelm wanted every day to be his birthday), who avoided empirical experiences that could challenge his preconceived notions, a massive inferiority complex that he took out on others, given to bombastic, crass racism (even by the standards of the day), and probably genuinely unstable. He was basically a teenage boy inside who would in the modern age be targeted for ADHD drugs-not evil, per se, but not an appropriate candidate for the most powerful man in Europe, in charge of the new, awkward economic superpower trying to find its place. It wasn’t ideology so much as it was basic maturity: the treatment he got from his courtiers, the fundamental lack of seriousness, would have been equally absolutely unthinkable with his father or grandfather, despite their polar opposite political bents.

    He lost any real influence over policy after the British interview fiasco in 1906, so you can’t really blame Bill directly for the war. That said… throwing out the treaty with Tsarist Russia (out of a belief his own personal relationship with Alexander III was enough, despite explicit evidence to the contrary-evidence that ended up costing Bismarck his career) while launching the naval race with Britain epitomized his own split soul-and his lack of decisiveness. By refusing to choose one course or the other, it ensured that Germany would have the worst of both worlds: and Bismarck could already faintly see how it would all end on his deathbed.

  192. @German_reader

    it really feels like they intend to use it for grievance-mongering for all eternity.

    I do think some issues in WWII are legitimate gripes. We really did suffer more than most people. Importantly, we didn’t start the war so our losses are harder to rationalise than yours or Russia, since you two were the invading states. As a percentage of our population, we lost more than almost anyone else. The only nations who lost more were the aggressor countries. We lost 18% of our civilian population, by contrast the UK lost barely 1%.

    I don’t think that is “grievance-mongering”.

    I don’t expect Poles to like Germany (certainly not its present government, maybe also not German companies operating in Poland), but still, it would be nice if Polish right-wingers recognized that on a fundamental level the old Polish-German conflict is over.

    You’re preaching to the choir. I am tired of that bullshit as well, but as I’ve noted a thousand times, it’s very much age-related. All the polls from CBOS and similar respected institutes show this. I’m very thankful for this. These attitudes are very prevalent among the boomers and there are a minority of young people who imbibe them, but they truly are a disappearing minority. Progress one funeral at a time, as they say.

    There are no outstanding border issues, and hundreds of thousands of Poles are living in Germany, with very few tensions.

    There are close to 3 million ethnic Poles living in Germany according to Wikipedia. I don’t blame you for getting it wrong by an order of a magnitude. They blend in extremely easily, which shows high degree of cultural compatibility.

    As for Ukraine, I find it difficult to understand if some Poles really feel “humiliated” by that rather dysfunctional and troubled country.
    Seems all a bit out of proportion to me.

    First time I’ve heard that, too. That guy is just a weirdo. I don’t know anyone who feels “humiliated” wrt Ukraine. He seems like a very insecure guy who has complexes against everyone.

  193. @Polish Perspective

    Dismissing someone as “insecure” is a leftist tactics, a version of ad hominem argument.

    It is not true at all what you are saying that there is some love towards German in younger generation. There is no choir here. Please quote those polls.

    I do not feel humiliated by Ukraine, but find it a kind of degrading. Also, it sets pattern for future relations, and that is bad.

  194. @Another Polish Perspective

    I would caution you to ape West again (well, they love that, and expect that), this time as a nationalist.

    The West’s problem today is not too much nationalism – rather it is too little. If I was trying to ape them, I would do the opposite of what I am doing now.

    It is true that for Germany and Scandinavia the refugee “invasion” is the first order problem, but it is not so for Poland.

    See my previous point about you being a walled-in mind. You think we can just shut out the world. As I’ve noted, Germany began with employment migration, too. The refugees came later. It’s extremely naïve to think we have somekind of magical barrier and that it “can’t happen here”.

    My view is, their problems will become ours if we close our eyes shut and pretend it won’t happen here. It will. PiS is a cucked civnat party. So much for muh based Poland. That’s what you should obsess over instead of your childish and pathetic inferiority complexes vis-a-vis Germans and even Ukrainians(!).

    As for Ukraine: instead of creating a Polish influence zone in Ukraine, Poland itself is becoming the zone of Ukrainian influence. That says all.

    Too stupid to even take seriously.

  195. @German_reader

    Is Northern Italy really a backwater today?

    We’re talking about the land of Ferrari and Ferragamo.

    • Replies: @German_reader
  196. @Another Polish Perspective

    The Dalén light

    SKF

    Volvo

    Saab

    Scania

    LM Ericsson

    IKEA

    H&M

    Twin-scroll turbines

    Tetrapak (juice boxes and milk cartons)

    USS Monitor

    The adjustable wrench

    The zipper

    Three-point seatbelts

    High voltage direct current transmission

    And this is all from just one country in Scandinavia. Granted, Norway has never accomplished much after its viking era other than its success in merchant shipping (something which…Greece also excels in).

    The Danes on the other hand are almost as talented as us.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    , @Pericles
  197. @Anonymous

    Foreign competition is most certainly not a red herring. Cadillac and Lincoln were once the prestige auto brands in America. Now it’s the German trio.

    Chicago was once the world’s largest cluster of electronics manufacturing. Now it’s Shenzen.

    The textile industry in America effectively no longer even exists.

    America went from the world’s largest producer of machine tools to a distant number six in just twenty years.

    Automation is a meme made up by ecommunists who have never set foot in a factory floor. US manufacturing isn’t even that automated. Robot density is lower than many other countries.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  198. @Polish Perspective

    Do you mean red-pilled or blue-pilled? There is no black pill.

    • Replies: @notanon
    , @Anatoly Karlin
  199. @Polish Perspective

    You can ape West as a leftist, you can ape West as a nationalist too.
    Due to the lack of welfare system, refugees wont be a problem, or the same kind of problem in Poland as in the West. That some Chinese will come to work is not a tragedy. There is already around 100 000 Vietnamese in Poland. Are they a problem?
    I dislike the fact that the narration is driven by West all the time. It was they who decided WWII is passe (just because all the old Nazis who got the slack, died, and now Germans can play the enlighted again. What a Schadenfreude to accuse Poles of Nazism! It is highly perverted pleasure of very sophisticated culture, and that’s not the Polish one. ), it was they who decided refugees are our most important problem now. You do ape them, in a way.

    Ukrainian interests are respected in Poland, but Polish ones not so much in Ukraine. All the time you hear only Ukrainian heroic narration.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    , @szopen
  200. notanon says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    …Hogwarts Syndrome, etc…Britain is basically a fag civilization…

    I realized a while back that Anglophilia is largely a function of children’s books – or books children read around age 10-12 e.g . Peter Pan, Robin Hood, Sherlock Holmes, Jeeves and Wooster, Harry Potter etc).

  201. DFH says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    a fag civilization

    Britons have contributed vastly more to the world than Russians, not to mention being the most powerful nation in the world for a hundred years despite having a relatively tiny population. Britons have vastly overperformed given their size and geographical location, whether as Russians have greatly underperformed.

    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
    , @Mitleser
  202. @Thorfinnsson

    Norway has never accomplished much after its viking era

    Black metal! Though usually Swedish bands are better even at that.

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    , @LatW
  203. @Thorfinnsson

    Not today, I meant the later 16th-18th centuries.

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
  204. @Another Polish Perspective

    Fags are a natural by-product of a public school system, aren’t they?

    TBH, one could argue that they were pretty heavily associated with boarding schools and I think the association of the British upper class with unusually high levels of grooming is probably not merely a false stereotype. My experience with boarding school students generally affirms this, but obviously, its hard to say if it isn’t independent of the influence from the outside world, and greater acceptance of homosexuality in the wider world.

  205. notanon says:
    @Peter Johnson

    black-pilled = disheartened

  206. @Polish Perspective

    Do not get duped like Sobieski in 1683. <>Historia magistra vitae.
    We should have allied ourselves with Turkey and France against those dumb Habsburgs.
    Even now we should have been building an alliance with Erdogan instead of Merkel, of Netanjahu, of Trump.
    If we had a good relationship with Turkey, we could extend this relationship to Balkan countries, and create a kind of Polish influence zone. We are really liked in former Yugoslavia, you know? Even in Albania! They still remember there a great Polish culture center in Tirana.

    • Replies: @German_reader
  207. @Peter Johnson

    Blackpill = pessimistic reality/redpill (also whitepill = optimistic reality/redpill)

  208. @Polish Perspective

    I do think some issues in WWII are legitimate gripes. We really did suffer more than most people.

    That’s certainly true, and to some extent it’s also true that Polish suffering hasn’t always been sufficiently acknowledged in Germany. I just don’t see though what exactly the Polish right wants (apart from demanding billions in reparations which even they must realize is very unlikely at this point). It’s always about feelings and some vague perception of German arrogance…what’s one supposed to do about that?

    We lost 18% of our civilian population

    That 18% includes Polish Jews though, and no offense, but so far I haven’t gotten the impression that you view them exactly as compatriots.

    • Replies: @Polish Perspective
  209. @Another Polish Perspective

    just because all the old Nazis who got the slack, died,

    Also because you received a fifth of their country (long term, it’s worth a fifth of your population; especially since half the people you lost weren’t even Poles at all), and got permission to ethnically cleanse them, and Germans aren’t even allowed to complain about it. Long term, larger territory means either larger population or higher living standards (bigger houses), and probably explain why Germany had the smallest baby boom in Europe. Poland I think had one of the largest population growth rates in Europe after the war, probably as a result of the lower population density, which was the result of the ethnically cleansed new territories.

    Anyway, my point is that you won. You got rid of your Jewish problem, too, without even dirtying your hands. No need to be resentful about it.

    Germany’s problem right now is too little nationalism, not too much. Unfortunately Germans don’t seem to be able to find the middle ground. If you keep kicking them over an issue where they paid you dearly, you will not accomplish much, especially because it’s not the Germans who are ultimately behind the push for refugees. They are only a proximate cause. Are you well versed in the Jewish Question?

    Should Germany go fully Islamic in the next half century, the state there will cease to be apologetic about its Nazi past anyway. But it won’t be good for you either. Your best chance right now would be a moderately nationalistic Germany. The anti-German rhetoric won’t get you there. It might happen whatever you do. Then… let’s just say it won’t do any good to you.

    One minor point I agree with you is that the moniker “Polish Perspective” is misleading, though he did clarify on many occasions that his opinions are often not very typical in Poland.

  210. @reiner Tor

    An “invention” best left in Europe. When Nordic autism goes too far…

    The appropriate music for our ilk, beyond of course classical music, is New Wave.

    For which we can thank the English.

    In particular the full 12 inch extended play version of Blue Monday, released by New Order in 1983.

    Honorable mention to Don’t You Want Me by The Human League, an excellent choice for couple’s karaoke.

    The Tropical Aryan Surfer Kingdom will implement the 80s aesthetic as a matter of official state policy. Owing to widespread slavery there will be no need to work, allowing for cultivation of the most refined aesthetics.

  211. @German_reader

    In addition to the love letter I wrote you about the Germans, I am a great admirer of the Italians. And despite being peasants from the Mezzogiorno, I greatly appreciate Italian-Americans for their vitality and courage.

    Lately the Enemy has been trying to suppress Columbus Day here in America. Italian-Americans, including members of the media such as the Money Honey (Maria Bartiromo–fantastic tits), universally stood up to defend the Admiral of the Ocean Sea.

    Have a look at this proud son of Italy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y7Rt0r7wtzM&t=47s

    • Replies: @German_reader
  212. Corvinus says:
    @Jeremy Cooper

    Because this notion that Generation Z is going to save western civilization by way of a massive rebellion is Fake News.

  213. @Another Polish Perspective

    You want an alliance with Turkey? Are you serious or is this some especially weird trolling?
    If you’re indeed living in Germany and such a keen student of German society, maybe you should have understood by now that Turkey isn’t a country with which one can have a mutually beneficial alliance. They will always seek to push their advantage to the other side’s detriment.

  214. szopen says:
    @reiner Tor

    Poland before the war had 386,418 square kilometres.

    Poland after the war has 312,679 square kilometres.

    The former Polish eastern territories wer also “ethnically cleansed” (e.g. part of my family lost everything they had in what is now Belarus and were forcefully “transferred” to western Poland). About 1.1 million Poles post 1945 and additional 250 thousands in 1950s were moved from those territories (some Poles still remain there; e.g. part of my family. But some of them no longer consider themselves Polish).

    All in all I agree it was change in a plus (better to have more compact territory and more homogenous population) but you tend to forget the context.

    Also, the losses were disproportionally suffered by intelligentsia. Simply put, Polish society was decapitated.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
  215. Anonymous[405] • Disclaimer says:
    @Thorfinnsson

    US manufacturing isn’t even that automated. Robot density is lower than many other countries.

    Why is that? Labor unions?

    Also if Wisconsin manufacturing could do well despite foreign competition then it shows that ultimately its average IQ of a region that determines manufacturing competitiveness.

  216. szopen says:
    @Another Polish Perspective

    Due to the lack of welfare system, refugees wont be a problem, or the same kind of problem in Poland as in the West. That some Chinese will come to work is not a tragedy. There is already around 100 000 Vietnamese in Poland. Are they a problem?

    It’s almost as if I was listening to Korwin-Mikke.

    There is welfare system in Poland, though not as developed as in the west. Moreover, welfare system is developing more and more. Finally, In 1960 it was also said that “if some Chinese will come, or some Mexicans, then it won’t be a tragedy” and “we already have emigrants, is that a problem”?

    Homogenous societies are better than heterogenous, and assimilation is better if newcomers are similar to people already residing here. Civic nationalism, as proposed by cucks such as Korwin has no future. 10.000 Vietnamese is not a problem, but 100.000 Vietnamese won’t be a problemy IF AND ONLY IF they will assimilate and won’t become ethnic minority. We need no ethnic minorities.

  217. @reiner Tor

    The land we got from Germany in 1945, Germans took away from Poland during partitions of Poland, more or less.

    The Jewish Question is tricky, but after studying German history in the 20th century, I have come to conclusion that Germans finally put this noose on their necks on their own maybe. Studying, I realized that the Germans always play the upmanship game. The best way for Germany would be to accept Stalin Note of 1952, and take the offer of unification for eternal neutrality, like Austria did later, and is disliked due to that fact till today in Germany. But Adenauer wanted a German grandeur again, and Germany as a full member of the West. Are you a full member of the West, or the vassal state now, sincerely? Go and paid your hommage to Adenauer! Also, de-nazification was a total joke, I understand that not everyone could be punished, but I thought, at least 30%? Just to prove your sincerity. But the Germans do not believe in sincerity, Bizantynians as they are by the grace of empress Theophano. So of higher civil servants, of judges and prosecutors exactly null (0,0) were punished after WWII. It is indeed a kind of arrogance, towards Poles, Jews, Russians, all victims. So in a way I do not wonder very much that Jews finally moved on Hutton plan.
    Throw your upmanship game away, SINCERELY confess your sins, not expecting anything in return, stop believing that ‘wir können alles’, and maybe things will turn better for the German people (not necessarily for German industry, or Beamtentum). The democratic revolution is overdue in Germany since 300 years already.

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
  218. @Anonymous

    Plenty of manufacturing was lost in Wisconsin as well. No more Allis Chalmers.

    I don’t have a good answer as to why American manufacturing is less automated than German and Japanese.

    Any answer I tried to give you would be armchair sociology of the sort economists resorted to when discussing Britain in the 1970s.

    Wisconsin’s relatively successful persistence in manufacturing might be down to German cultural heritage as opposed to IQ per se.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  219. @Anonymous

    Don’t you think that huge subsidies to buy high capital goods such as manufacturing robots does play some role too?

  220. @Another Polish Perspective

    The land we got from Germany in 1945, Germans took away from Poland during partitions of Poland, more or less.

    That’s not really true.

    What did East Prussia have to do with Poland for instance?

    Poland received in 1918 the Polish territories of Germany. After 1945 it got more territory which had nothing to do with Poland.

    Of course the Germans started the war and they lost. Sew the wind, reap the whirlwind.

    You’re wrong on Adenauer. He wasn’t interested in German grandeur at all, which the Prussians he despised did so much to create. Adenauer considered Berlin to be dispensable, collaborated with the French during the occupation of the Ruhr, and always drew his blinds when crossing the Elbe.

    He was typical of Rhenish Papists who hated the Prussian Junkers and hero worshipped the French.

    Even the great Rhenish patriot Ernst Moritz Arndt was in fact a Pomeranian.

    Note that I am not German and harbor no hostility to Poland.

  221. @Thorfinnsson

    Italy is a strange country, I have very mixed feelings about it (though it’s undeniably central to Western culture and also a great economic power). Will be interesting to see though what Ms5 and Lega will do, at least Italians don’t seem to be as gullible and pozzed as stupid Northern Euros.

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
  222. @German_reader

    Perhaps you’re upset about being saddled with such an inept ally during the war. :)

    Though German officers in their memoirs generally defended their Italian allies, attributing their deficiencies to a lack of equipment and munitions.

    Kesselring amusingly considered himself the savior of Italy, and told the postwar Italian republic that they should erect statues of him.

    The H-man enjoyed telling jokes about Italian ineptitude.

  223. @Thorfinnsson

    This military ineptitude is legendary – on their own, even the Greeks managed to roll back Italians (It was then when scared Mussolini put Italy’s fate into Hitler hands). Did Greeks have better equipment?! It is one of great puzzles of history, since Italians surely have considerable organizational abilities, as showed by different mafia strains.

    • Replies: @Mitleser
  224. @Thorfinnsson

    Perhaps you’re upset about being saddled with such an inept ally during the war.

    Not really, in some ways I even find it admirable that the Italians were able to get rid of Mussolini (though of course they were inept enough to enable a German occupation of much of the peninsula). I just find it a bit much when they pretend every Italian was always opposed to fascism and just a victim of evil Germany. Mussolini’s regime enjoyed wide support until it got Italy into a war for which it was totally unprepared, and was responsible for numerous atrocities in North Africa, Abessynia and the Balkans.

  225. @szopen

    I understand that. I would have been more nuanced if the tone of those comments didn’t irritate me so much.

    The lost territory had a non-Polish majority (Lord Curson certainly thought it shouldn’t belong to Poland), while the smaller territory is for Poles only. Also I think you can hardly blame the Germans for the loss of the Eastern territories. You don’t seem to want them back anyway.

    All in all, I think it’d be a horrible mistake to start relitigating WW2 right now.

  226. @German_reader

    I am just teasing.

    It’s not just Italy that pulled this retcon nonsense. Austria officially claims to be a “victim” of Nazism.

    I have no issues with Italy’s atrocities in Libya. The world doesn’t need Libya or Libyans.

    Ethiopians on the other hand are interesting and deserve preservation.

    Not a fan of Balkanoid swine, particularly Albanians (worthless), but Italy trying to ethnocide Croats and even Germans was inappropriate.

    I don’t know that it was admirable for the Italians to get rid of Mussolini. He of course gambled and failed, but it’s not like his replacements did much good. Pragmatic at least. But this is really down to Mussolini’s laxity, compared to the far harsher H-man who brooked little opposition. And the H-man in turn was less ruthless (with internal opposition) than Stalin.

    • Replies: @German_reader
  227. songbird says:
    @Polish Perspective

    I think Poles, much like Irish, need to walk a tightrope.

    On the one hand, suffering is key to their sense of nationalism. On the other, it would be an enormous mistake to hold an actual grudge which could interfere or distract from a necessary sense of white solidarity with their neighbors. Still, I do approve of their bringing out the shadow of the past when playing hardball with Merkel – she is a witch.

    Maybe, Sweden’s problem is that it did not suffer.

    • Replies: @DFH
    , @Polish Perspective
  228. songbird says:
    @reiner Tor

    Should Germany go fully Islamic in the next half century, the state there will cease to be apologetic about its Nazi past anyway.

    They may start accusing the Poles and Dutch of being Nazis, but they still won’t let go of any stick to beat ethnic Germans living within Germany.

  229. @German_reader

    Well, in all fairness, Mussolini’s Italy was orders of magnitude more humane than Nazi Germany (or the USSR).

    There were a grand total of 9 people executed for political reasons under Mussolini. Of these most were outright terrorists. Note that even the US also executed people who were arguably “politicals” during that period (Sacco & Vanzetti).

    Dissidents were send to internal exile in surprisingly good conditions. Even Communists such as Gramsci were much, much safer – and even free to produce content – under Italian fascism than in the USSR itself.

    The irony is that even Francoist Spain seems to have been far more ruthless and bloodier than fascist Italy, it just escaped the opprobrium with better PR (and by not joining the H-Man). So basically I don’t see praising Mussolini as any more questionable than, say, praising Franco, or Salazar, or Pinochet, or other “moderate” dictators.

  230. DFH says:
    @songbird

    Most right-wing Irish nationalists I’ve spoken to don’t focus on things that have happened to the Irish in the past or anti-Angloism, unlike left-wing Republicans.

  231. Mitleser says:
    @DFH

    having a relatively tiny population

    Hardly tiny compared to other European nations.

    Britons have vastly overperformed given their size and geographical location, whether as Russians have greatly underperformed.

    Largest European island and very favorable geographical location.
    They may have overperformed till the early 20th century, but no longer.

    As for Russia: http://www.unz.com/akarlin/reconsidering-parshev/

  232. Mitleser says:
    @Another Polish Perspective

    Did Greeks have better equipment?! It is one of great puzzles of history, since Italians surely have considerable organizational abilities, as showed by different mafia strains.

    Greece was an Operational-level failure (again, coupled with the “WTF are we even doing here?” morale issue), and the Greeks were far more willing to get into a headbutting contest than the Italians were. Coupled with truly wretched weather and Italian logistical issues (the Army simply didn’t have enough equipment and funding…and Italian industry wasn’t capable of keeping pace), it was basically a disaster.
    Mussolini wanted to imitate the Blitzkrieg that had ploughed France under…..but he wanted to do it with a military not trained or structured to do it, and in a place where the geography was frequently labelled “no Blitzkrieg here!”. Quite frankly, the Greeks were aided by the fact that nobody (least of all the Italians) believed they were capable of resisting….so the Greek counterattacks were essentially complete surprises.
    The Greeks also didn’t fuck around a lot, and began entrenching literally as soon they realized the Italians were going to try something (after a Greek cruiser was sunk, in August). So they had months of prep time to ready a warm welcome for the Italians.

    https://forums.spacebattles.com/posts/47442503/

  233. @German_reader

    It’s always about feelings and some vague perception of German arrogance…what’s one supposed to do about that?

    I don’t think it is possible to answer that question in any other way than to descend into amateur psychobabble. It will depend on each of those persons. I for one am happy to conclude that they are a dying breed and leave it at that. I get the distinct sense that you think this is far more prevalent than it really is. I think that’s probably because PiS is pushing this and they are dominated by boomers.

    That said, I have stated in the past that I am not against reparations in some form, since Poland really did suffer for no fault of its own. I have also stated that I think the time for reparations is basically over. I would have a supported a mini-marshall plan at the early 90s, but by now the issue is obviously dead. I think you should see the demand for reparations in a two-fold manner: having a negotiating chip vis-a-vis Germany whenever there are talks of “historic responsibility” (this phrase is often used in conjunction with refugee quotas) and secondly to feed the boomer base of Catholicucks.

    That 18% includes Polish Jews though, and no offense, but so far I haven’t gotten the impression that you view them exactly as compatriots.

    I don’t, but that doesn’t mean I want to see a mass bloodletting. Far more preferable would have been an orderly, peaceful and phased exodus to their real homeland, Israel, rather than mass murder – and preferably done in peace time. But that’s just me.

    • Replies: @German_reader
    , @utu
  234. @songbird

    I think Poles, much like Irish, need to walk a tightrope.

    On the one hand, suffering is key to their sense of nationalism.

    Which I frankly hate and am tired of. I’m sick of the victimisation complex. It’s a glorification of being a loser. Big news: states take advantage of each other.

    I find it hilarious that many Polish nationalists insist on not judging our country on the last few centuries but consider the full 1000 year range. I find that demand to be reasonable, I make it myself.
    However, far too many also insist on distilling German history to the Nazi period and then claiming that it represents the essence of ‘the German character’ or whatever.

    Germans are not afforded complexity and nuance. They are far too often black-and-white killers, emotionless robots with no feelings or empathy of their own. Such propaganda is no less dehumanising than the BS that German nationalists pushed against Slavic peoples for centuries.

    The truth of the matter is, Germany gained the upper hand because it was better at social organisation. That’s it. A lot of Polish nationalists don’t want to face that stark fact – out of the humiliation it carries, as you can see from the guy I debated with in this very thread. Many then resort to fantastical conspiracy theories and tales of betrayal. Some of those betrayals are very real, but I am an unsentimental man. A people have to continually prove its worth of existence. If it does not, it will perish and fade away from the world stage. Poles showed resilience throughout centuries and we re-established ourselves. That’s not enough. We must now show that we are not merely good at surviving but also thriving.

    The key blocking impediments to that are these victimhood complexes. You can never improve unless you engage in radical self-criticism and brutal honesty. Why did Poland disappear from the map for almost 200 years? I don’t buy the geography argument. Germany didn’t exist until 1870 and it was surrounded by powerful enemies on all sides (France, Austria-Hungary and Russia). There was no obvious reason why Germany would unite and power on to become such a juggernaut from 1870 to 1945. They did it because they were and still are damned skilled. There’s no conspiracy here.

    This is what I’d love to obsess about, to learn and to study. Instead I get to deal with the unending stream of teary-eyed sentimental loser mentality bullshit that you can see on display in this thread from certain commenters. It’s nauseating and it’s a key reason why I got involved in nationalist politics in Poland in the first place. I just can’t let these people continue the same old drivel and excuses, to use history as a crutch in the forever after to avoid doing the hard work of introspection and self-criticism. Our people will never truly prosper otherwise.

  235. @Anatoly Karlin

    His bromance with Hitler is pretty questionable. The only reason he entered it was because he had a falling out with his ugly Jewish mistress. No wounder may “Alt-Righters” like him.

  236. @Thorfinnsson

    I don’t know that it was admirable for the Italians to get rid of Mussolini. He of course gambled and failed, but it’s not like his replacements did much good.

    It was the right decision from the point of Italian national interests, as a consequence the Italians got off fairly lightly for a country that had been a major combatant on the German side for three years. They lost their colonies (not worth much anyway, apart maybe from Lybia with its oil) and Istria (very bad for the Italians there), but on the whole the allies didn’t threat them really as a defeated power.

  237. @German_reader

    “and was responsible for numerous atrocities in North Africa, Abessynia and the Balkans.”

    Itlay’s “colonial atrocities” were trivial compared to France and Britain. What the Italians did would have been considered basic administrative work in the British Empire.

    • Replies: @German_reader
  238. @Anatoly Karlin

    Well, in all fairness, Mussolini’s Italy was orders of magnitude more humane than Nazi Germany (or the USSR)

    If Nazi Germany is the point of comparison, almost anything will look pretty humane.
    Fascist Italy certainly wasn’t that bad a system at home for most of its existence, but it did wage aggresssive war (several of them in fact) abroad. I don’t think the Abessynians who had gas dropped on them regarded that as humane, and the monks butchered on Graziani’s orders probably didn’t regard Italians as nice fellows either.

    The irony is that even Francoist Spain seems to have been far more ruthless and bloodier than fascist Italy

    Franco faced a left that was far crazier and more militant than anything in Italy. I’m not a fan of political Catholicism, but the Spanish left was so extreme (they killed a majority of Spain’s bishops iirc, thousands of ecclesiastics, and many conservative laymen as well), it’s not really surprising that the Francists weren’t in a forgiving mood.

  239. @Anarcho-Supremacist

    I don’t think that was true by the 1930s, if anything Britain had probably become too humane by then.

  240. @Polish Perspective

    Far more preferable would have been an orderly, peaceful and phased exodus to their real homeland, Israel, rather than mass murder

    Israel didn’t exist then, and I have my doubts it would have come into existence without the sympathy generated for Jews by the Holocaust. By the late 1930s the British were already having second thoughts about the whole Zionist project and had begun to realize that it had probably been a pretty stupid idea.
    That being said, my comment obviously wasn’t meant as an endorsement of the Holocaust.

    • Replies: @Polish Perspective
    , @LatW
  241. Pericles says:
    @Thorfinnsson

    Some more:

    The refrigerator (1921, a Masters thesis at KTH, subsequently used by Electrolux, another bigco)
    The adjustable wrench (1892)
    Dynamite, of course (1865)
    The medical respirator (1950) (though it has now considerably evolved)
    The pace maker (1958)

    http://listor.se/varlden/beromda-svenska-uppfinningar/

    And also

    Xylocain for local anesthesia
    Ultrasound electrocardiograms
    Modern dental implants (with titanium screws)
    First practical dialysis machine
    Losec/omeprazol, apparently popular among stock brokers in the 80s, among others
    Nicotine gum (Nicorette)

    (In Swedish I’m afraid)

    http://www.reforminstitutet.se/wp/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/Sveriges-100-fr%C3%A4msta-innovationer.pdf

    And some more

    The sulfite process for turning pulp into paper (very useful in a forest-covered country like Sweden)
    The safety match (well, to an extent, and also productization)
    The gauge block (1896, perhaps best appreciated by manufacturers)

  242. @German_reader

    Redpill yourself on Zionist history.

    Ben-Gurion was going to the US in the early 1900s to do speeches in front of US audiences, both jewish and Christian, and openly comparing the “conquest of the land” to the conquest of the US by the European settlers. He was making direct references to “the reds” vis-a-vis the Palestinians. This was not a man who was going to compromise, despite being portrayed after his death as an enlightened democrat.

    The Zionists were going to get the land one way or another and if they had to kill ethnic Europeans – which they gladly did in a series of terrorist attacks against the British, including by a future PM of Israel who voiced no regrets about it – then the notion that they were going to stopped because some genteel European diplomats didn’t think it was a good idea is preposterous. All the LARPy ideas of “A jewish homeland in Argentina” had by that point – late 30s – ceased to be serious ideas except in remote offices not connected to the reality on the ground. The jews in Palestine were never going to move by that point, whatever they told the goyim publicly. Read their diaries.

    Speaking of which, I have read Ben-Gurion’s diaries and letters. I can highly recommend them. I’d have no hesitation saying I’d easily outrank him over Churchill (who was quite overrated, but simply looked a lot better since he was replacing an utter dolt). What’s interesting to me is that he even admitted in a letter to his son by the mid-1930s that the Palestinians would be “spirited away”, this is basically forcible ethnic cleansing. And indeed, that’s precisely what they did come ’48. And then again in ’67 (this is less known, since most people only know about the occupation of the West Bank and not the 2nd round of ethnic cleansing).

    In short, Israel was going to happen by that point, the only question was how quickly. Several million extra Jews flowing from Poland would have accelerated that process arguably even faster and I doubt it would have mattered whether or not the European powers thought otherwise. And if they did, they would just have gotten bombed if/when they would have intervened. Post-WWII, the European colonial empires were overdebted and wanted to get rid of a lot of colonies. Aside from places like Algeria, where the French had a million of their own living there, I have very hard time believing that the British would sacrifice a lot of lives for a place that had no real strategic value for them, had no oil and was mired with jewish fanatics ready to go to death for their own state. Truth to be told, the British were just playing it safe and looking for an exit, which many later admitted in their memoirs. I don’t blame them. I just find it sad that their government didn’t prosecute the murderers of their soldiers and civilians, but Board of Deputies had already risen to prominence by then (the UK-equivalent of AIPAC).

    • Agree: Hyperborean
  243. @Polish Perspective

    A usually forgotten aspect is that while the holocaust certainly generated extra sympathy for the Zionist project, and created extra motivation for Aliyah, it also destroyed the vast majority of Jews who could make Aliyah in the first place. The Zionist project might have moved a bit slower, but would arguably be stronger now.

    Regarding the ethnic cleansing, I think that was the only realistic way they could do that. Arguably they only cleansed a relatively small area, probably not the worst crime of the middle decades of the 20th century. It’s just that Israel’s partisans often scream bloody murder for way less, when European whites do it.

    Do you have any sources for the 1967 ethnic cleansing? I have seen it mentioned somewhere, but no detailed description.

    • Replies: @Polish Perspective
  244. @Polish Perspective

    You make a lot of good points, I can’t really argue against that.

    And then again in ’67 (this is less known, since most people only know about the occupation of the West Bank and not the 2nd round of ethnic cleansing).

    I haven’t heard about that either, what exactly does it refer to?

    • Replies: @Polish Perspective
  245. Russian billionaire Roman Abramovich, the owner of Chelsea soccer club who has found himself without a visa to Britain, took Israeli citizenship on Monday and will move to Tel Aviv where he has bought a property, an Israeli media report said.

    Source.

    I was tempted to add scare quotes to Russian in the quote ;)

    Some international news which I find noteworthy: Brazil is paralysed by a trucker protest due to high oil prices. A trucker protest, I can hear you ask, who cares? Well, the country is apparently paralysed and the president has threatened to send in the army(!). Schools were shut and even vital supplies were running short in some hospitals.

    Nicaragua is seeing what seems like the initial stages of a US-backed coup against Ortega (a close friend to Maduro in Venezuela). I’m not in favour of either of them, but it’s a reminder of how little sovereignty matters in most of the world.

    What is perhaps more impressing, and more important, is that India is finding a backbone when it comes to the Iran sanctions. They will only abide by UN sanctions, which are very much watered-down and will ignore US ones. Trump gave in to the Israel and Saudi/Gulf Arab lobbies but nobody else is keen to follow. There was a recent meeting between Merkel and Xi and the talk coming out of that meeting was positive. Merkel is a very “Atlanticist” leader as they call them – very servile to US diktats – so one should always be cautious about being too optimistic. Nevertheless, the stars are lining up.

    Someone asked “why do you care about Iran”. I don’t, but I do care about setting an independent foreign policy and it’d be great news if the influence of the US was greatly curtailed, especially in MENA and Europe were it does most damage.

  246. @reiner Tor

    Regarding the ethnic cleansing, I think that was the only realistic way they could do that.

    I agree. The big lie was the whole “a land without a people for a people without a land”. That’s why the left has a point when they say obsessing over the post-67 borders is irrational since all of Israel is a big settlement project from start to finish. “””Liberal””” Zionists go apeshit over this comment, but interestingly enough, many right-wing settlers agree. And they agree because it is true, which is why it triggers these self-appointed “liberals” because it destroys their own self-conception of themselves.

    That’s why Naftali Bennett and similar right-wingers openly say that they should ditch the two-state solution and just annex the West Bank. My own guess is that Netanyahu wants to do that, but he’d likely prefer a major conflict to happen and do so under the cover of war/crisis, just as in ’48 and ’67.

    It’s just that Israel’s partisans often scream bloody murder for way less, when European whites do it.

    Israel’s consul general in New York is a literal settler. He has also stated that he views whites in the US as history and “we must do outreach to latinos”. In some interviews he has expressed pain over the history of Apartheid South Africa. Zero insight and self-reflection. What’s more revealing, is that nobody in the press dares (or wants) to challenge him on this hypocrisy.

    Most of the rabid neocons who obsess over “Hungary’s slide towards authoritarianism” full-throatedly defended the mass slaughter of civilians from Gaza, as RamZPaul acidly pointed out. ADL is Zionist but scaremongers about ethnic nationalism in the US. CRIF in France, the aforementioned Board of Deputies in the UK. It is a serial pattern.

  247. @German_reader

    Read ‘Goliath: life and loathing in Greater Israel’ by Max Blumenthal. One of the few genuinely liberal Jews who is not just an opportunist liberal domestically but a Zionist abroad. Sort of a younger Glenn Greenwald. He wrote a great book – based on original research – some years ago where he goes under the skin of contemporary Israeli society, as well diving into the history of the conflict. He is a very methodological man and he takes sourcing very seriously, so the book itself is a great starting point if you want to dive deeper. He goes into considerable detail of the ’67 cleansing.

    Ilan Pappé goes on the same themes in this article:

    https://electronicintifada.net/content/new-evidence-1967-war-reveals-israeli-atrocities/14635

    The article itself is based on a documentary which ran in Israel – after being censored for many decades – about soldiers who participated in the ’67 war. They openly attest to cleansing whole villages:

    “In the operation we had to cleanse the inhabitants. This uprooting of a villager, rooted in his village and turning him into a refugee, by simply expelling him, and not one, two or three of them but a real eviction. And when you see a whole village is led like lambs to the slaughter without any resistance you understand what is the Holocaust.”

    This was ’67, not ’48. It wasn’t just uprooting, though. It was also about establishing a network of outposts which would cleave and cut Palestinian villages from each other and this would be built-upon over the course of decades that today well over a half a million settlers live there. So just talking of ethnic cleansing, while important, is misleading since it goes way beyond that.

    https://www.wrmea.org/1992-november/memory-of-1967-ethnic-cleansing-fuels-ideology-of-golan-settlers.html

    Another article.

  248. @Polish Perspective

    Look, you are young (but I think you are older than 20 since your English is pretty good: I give you something like 25 years), Darwinian, naive and not read well enough. Mierz siły na zamiary, nie zamiar podług sił, as the poet says.

    Where did this strawman come, for example: Why did Poland disappear from the map for almost 200 years? I don’t buy the geography argument. ? Who said something about geography…??!

    I have rolled out a lot of facts, themes, you know only one: the aesthetic greatness of German organization. In a way you are pretty boring. I have tried to provoke you to thinking, but I see to no avail. Being older, I thought I deserve some respect too, you know as ‘The Elder’. There were ‘Elders Councils’ in German tribal organization too, you know.

    You buy even into the Western theme of “How many Palestinians did Israelis kill?”. Why is this important for Poland AT ALL? But They like to discuss such subjects in Germany.

    I suggest you simply emigrate to Germany, I, on the other hand, am going to leave this country.

  249. @Polish Perspective

    Thanks, good to know about that.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  250. @Polish Perspective

    If you get interested in them too much, Palestinians will come to you as refugees. Remember.

    Are you in Poland at all? Or are you just an American with Polish roots? You have made those kind of comparisons which only an American would make, like Sort of a younger Glenn Greenwald. On the other hand, you do not seem to be so well versed in Polish authors and Polish debates.

    Maybe you are just camping with Greenwald and Poitras in Berlin.

    • Troll: utu
    • Replies: @Dmitry
  251. Dmitry says:
    @German_reader

    Why? ‘Max Blumenthal’. It’s some strange activist guy writing propaganda articles, like Saker, Israel Shamir, etc. No relation to any real world we can actually experience, or any country we can visit for ourselves (this guy Saker was even telling us that we don’t care about money in Russia, apparently as a compliment), but it serves in some way emotionally the anger of an audience it is targeted at.

    Again, if you want to know about a subject, you have to look at it for yourself, meet the real people and the real country. The contrast from the propaganda, can often be almost diametrical.

  252. Dmitry says:
    @Another Polish Perspective

    If you get interested in them too much, Palestinians will come to you as refugees. Remember.

    The ordinary Palestinians want to live in Israel. It’s a liberal, high quality living for Arabs inside Israel, which you can see if you visit their villages (and see all their luxurious villas and cars, the people sitting in expensive restaurants, the families barbecuing large feasts outside).

    The issue is if a proportion increased to an extent that the democracy would not longer function, which is why there would have to be a Palestinian self-determination at some point.

    The Arab Israelis (even in the most radical border town) will not want to join the Palestinian state though.

    https://web.archive.org/web/20110629140522/http://www.memri.org/report/en/0/0/0/0/0/0/358.htm

  253. @Dmitry

    It’s some strange activist guy writing propaganda articles

    Can’t judge that right now, I will look into it. I’m just always grateful if people provide me with potentially interesting information or make suggestions about books (if you think Max Blumenthal lies, maybe you can come up with alternative sources).

    Again, if you want to know about a subject, you have to look at it for yourself, meet the real people and the real country

    I think I did mention that I don’t earn much, so you’d have to donate me a few thousand euros for travelling to Israel. Maybe I’d be so impressed I’d become a pro-Israel activist afterwards :-)

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  254. Questions to Dad – Swedish Youth (Lyrics) (2017)
    with english subtitles.
    gen z in Sweden is the country`s only hope.

    • Replies: @German_reader
  255. @Per/Norway

    That’s a great song, very powerful and effective.
    Reminds me of that video by the French identitarians from a few years ago:

    That’s the kind of activism that is needed.

  256. Dmitry says:
    @German_reader

    I think I did mention that I don’t earn much, so you’d have to donate me a few thousand euros for travelling to Israel. Maybe I’d be so impressed I’d become a pro-Israel activist afterwards :-)

    It’s not the most expensive destination. But you’ll more likely be horrified by the tolerance and multicultural chaos.

    And you will be dreaming to return to return to your safe, homogeneous, non- full of Arab, cities.

    But the perspective of people like Max Blumenthal or Israel Shamir, etc – it’s like reading ‘black is white’ (quite literally for them, the problem in Israel, is not enough Arabs, and that the population is resisting increasing their number).

    The situation in Israel enforces a lot the belief in controlling immigration patterns. Because there is nowhere similar where I feel in the air so much contrast in atmosphere in the streets depending on the population group there.

    The more European the atmosphere, the more pleasant, welcoming and open the areas in the street is feeling. (And the more Arab, the more unfriendly, tribal, aggressive atmosphere, etc).

    Also there is a nightmare feeling, that somehow the nice area is completely open to the not-nice area (with almost nothing stopping the latter taking over the former).

    In Russia, I do not feel like this (e.g. Uralmash doesn’t need Arabs to be a slum).

    • Replies: @German_reader
  257. @Dmitry

    And you will be dreaming to return to return to your safe, homogeneous, non- full of Arab, cities.

    The city I’m living in is on its way to being 1/3 ethnically German by 2030. If I go the city centre (which I rarely do), I see a sea of headscarf-wearing Turkish women.
    Granted, I don’t live in the really bad parts, and of course it could be worse (and it probably will become worse) but “homogeneous” is pushing it.
    There was also a group of North African “minors” (none of them actually under 18, it turned out…one was 13 years older than he had claimed) that terrorized the area with thefts and other petty crimes. An acquaintance of mine caught one when he was just in the act of stealing an old pensioner’s handbag…when the police came, they said they couldn’t really do anything about it.
    Eventually it got so bad though that those North Africans were removed…I guess they’re now doing their “business” somewhere else in Germany (they certainly haven’t been deported).
    It’s true that some of the horror stories one reads in “alternative” media are exaggerated (though there are more than enough real rapes and murders committed by the “diverse”), but your perception is somewhat too rosy.

  258. @Dmitry

    Again, if you want to know about a subject, you have to look at it for yourself, meet the real people and the real country.

    A couple of weeks ago I recommended several “serious” books for you to read on the subject, and your reply was:

    To be honest, I have never read any history books on this topic so I won’t discuss the history or what happened 70 years ago.

    You can meet all the real people you want, but still be ignorant of the “real”history.

    To compare Blumenthal — with whom I certainly do not always agree — with Saker, Shamir, etc. just shows how little you really know. By the way, I’m sure you will enjoy his new documentary Killing Gaza.

    https://killinggaza.com/

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  259. utu says:
    @Another Polish Perspective

    Leave him alone, ok? He is not interested in your trolling.

    • Replies: @LatW
  260. LatW says:
    @Dmitry

    Probably you would spend $15,000 or a little more for modest living costs of a year in Stockholm? But you would have a relaxing year off work.

    Quite modest – just a room or a shared apartment for that amount, but, yea, it’s still a good deal. Although for the sake of credentials, either Lund or Uppsala would be better, and those are very small towns – after a couple of months your only form of “relaxing” would be listening to Dima Bilan in your tiny dorm room on a cold winter night. :)

  261. LatW says:
    @utu

    Leave him alone, ok? He is not interested in your trolling.

    Is he interested in fishing? Ok, ok, just kidding! Sorry, PP. :)

  262. LatW says:
    @reiner Tor

    I don’t think something as raw and monumental as Satyricon could have ever come out of Sweden. The strength of the various Swedish metals is in their melodicism.

    • Agree: reiner Tor
  263. LatW says:
    @German_reader

    Birobidzhan was built in the 1920-30s. See, Russia could help.

    Not supporting forced resettlement, just saying…

  264. @LatW

    PP was a clandestine Habsburg Perspective. Like in 1683, we are supposed to go together with Germans to fight Muslims. Sorry no! Polak mądry po szkodzie.
    As I said, historia magistra vitae.
    Also, his obsession with “Boomers” was very American too.
    The situation reminds me about this story of Stanisław Lem, where all inhabitants, of the entire planet, at the end were just secret service operatives. But I am, of course, like this lonely visitor to the planet who realized that.
    In Germany they continuously have those kinds of problems: hardly out of Stasiland, now they are in NSU-land.

  265. @Another Polish Perspective

    Being older, I thought I deserve some respect too

    I knew you were an aged boomer. I have a good instinct for Polish boomers and you fit the bill perfectly.

    I suggest you simply emigrate to Germany, I, on the other hand, am going to leave this country.

    So the guy accusing me of not being “Polish enough” because I reject and mock his inferiority complex, and his antiquated clinging to a loser mentality all-too-common among the older generations of Poles lives in Germany himself? Can’t make this shit up. :)

  266. AP says:
    @German_reader

    A subset of Polish nationalists, particularly those with origins in what is now western Ukraine whose relatives were massacred, really hate Ukrainians. Most Polish nationalists, OTOH, do not.

    The ones who do hate Ukrainians often have positive feelings towards Russians. There was some Polish group fighting alongside Russians in Donbas, for example.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
  267. Sehr geehrter Herr Polish Perspective,
    Among many things, you are unable to comprehend irony too: I am 35.

    Auf Wiedersehen, mein lieber Herr. Das Land der Dichter und Denker wartet.

  268. @AP

    There was some Polish group fighting alongside Russians in Donbas, for example.

    I’ve seen a group photo of a Hungarian volunteer battalion or company, and for a short while it made the rounds in Hungarian online media, but it turned out it was fake news. (At least that seems to be the most plausible explanation.) There were maybe some Hungarians fighting there, but not as a group.

    And at the time Jobbik was strongly pro-Russian. It sent an observer to the Crimea plebiscite and certified it as democratic. (Now Fidesz is more pro-Russian, for example in polls their voters are most supportive of Putin etc., while Jobbik is moving in an Atlanticist direction. In the 2000s, both were more or less hostile to Russia, and Jobbik was also hostile to the West.)

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
  269. @reiner Tor

    I can’t edit.

    So, are you sure Poles did fight for the Donbas?

    • Replies: @AP
    , @LatW
  270. AP says:
    @szopen

    THe problem is Bandera and the fact that Ukrainians do not admit UPA’s massacres of Poles; and I know quite a lot of people who were sympathetic to Ukraine, but right now got a bit impatient (“we were so nice to them and yet they do not even admit UPA was criminal organization!”)

    I agree Bandera is a problem and his glorification is bad. His movement was evil (though let’s be realistic: there was much evil in his time and he was rather mediocre in his evil-doing).

    But there does not seem to be anything one can do about it. He has become a popular symbol; fortunately for Poles, not even an anti-Polish symbol. His symbolism is directed against the Russians, by people who generally do admire and like Poles. The only thing attacking Ukrainians over Bandera will accomplish will be to turn people who like Poles into people who do not like them so much. They will not agree that Bandera was bad and they were wrong. They will instead start to remember past Polish crimes that they have stopped caring about. It’s why Russia, which benefits from a Polish-Ukrainian rift, pushes the idea of Bandera’s evil (one also sees anti-Bandera stuff coming form Germany sometimes – Germany also benefits is Poland is isolated from non-German countries). Poles are right about their critique of Bandera but condemning him now is a self-defeating thing to do.

    I posted it before, here is a Polish guy interviewing a modern Banderist (Right Sector) leader:

    http://euromaidanpress.com/2018/02/22/poland-journalist-talks-nationalism-with-ukraine-right-sector-leader/

  271. AP says:
    @reiner Tor

    So, are you sure Poles did fight for the Donbas?

    Yes. It was probably no more than a couple dozen.

    The source is a leftist but here it is:

    http://anton-shekhovtsov.blogspot.com/2014/06/polish-fascists-are-joining-pro-russian.html

    Some burned down the Hungarian center in Ukraine:

    http://euromaidanpress.com/2018/03/05/the-falanga-group-in-poland-whos-really-behind-the-arson-attacks-on-hungarian-associations-in-uzhhorod/

  272. AP says:
    @Another Polish Perspective

    Ukrainian nationalism is anti-Polish and anti-Russian, and it seems no other way is possible

    Nonsense. Since there are no longer territorial claims there are no longer hard feelings.

    A current Ukrainian nationalist/Banderist leader. Though I oppose the actual historical Bandera I don’t disagree with this guy:

    http://euromaidanpress.com/2018/02/22/poland-journalist-talks-nationalism-with-ukraine-right-sector-leader/

    “First of all, the main principle of the Right Sector is a brotherhood of European nations. Today, people of the European civilization are simply obligated to keep close to each other and act collectively against all phenomena which are destroying the civilization.

    We are supporters of the Baltic-Black Sea Alliance (Intermarium). And we believe in the Intermarium with the participation of Poland. Only in this formula are we able to protect the uniqueness of our nations and to economically secure the mutually beneficial relations and the security of all Europe.

    By any means, we are not opposed to ethnic Polish people or to the country of Poland in general, but to specific politicians or organizations utilizing Polish chauvinism.”

    “Regarding our heroes which seem to be a problem for the certain part of your society: different views of Ukraine and Poland regarding our common history are a right of each of us. We all have to be aware of this. We need to respect each other and not impose our way of seeing the history as the ultimate truth.

    But if we are to build our relations on remembering the bad things (“In century such-and-such you did this-and-that to us”, “and you have done this-and-that to us even before that”) then nothing good will come out of this. Christian values and morality are a part of both Polish and Ukrainian culture. So let’s finally embrace the formula “we forgive and ask for forgiveness.”

    On such things, our political elites should agree. But we, as the Right Sector, believe that it is not possible with the current government both of Ukraine and Poland. However, the healthy conservatism of the latter attracts many Ukrainian nationalists.

    PP: What do you mean by ”healthy conservatism” and how does it attract them?

    AT: I understand it as a protection of the traditional identity of Poland by your government. For example, your elites refused to accept Syrian migrants and, in general, they maintain a responsible approach to the issue of the immigration control. They did not allow the legalization of abortion, they continue a positive dialogue with the Catholic Church, they are not afraid to defend Poland’s sovereignty from the Brussels bureaucracy, unlike other EU states. To protect national identity is always commendable!”

  273. Yevardian says:
    @Polish Perspective

    I don’t have a horse in this debate and only really get pissed when AK slanders a Russia he never lived in or understands, but ‘drang nach osten’ was a very central feature of German civilisation for almost a millennium, so I do understand why older Poles would have that opinion.

    If you want to read perhaps the greatest Germanophobe of all time, I’d really recommend A.J.P Taylor, who also had many eccentric opinions worthy of the regular commenters here. One of the last true Englishmen in his politics imo.
    If you want a taste of the old German chauvinism regarding the east, see Andreas Hillgruber.

    I’d be curious to hear what German_Reader has to say on them.

    • Replies: @notanon
    , @German_reader
  274. @AP

    So tell me, what is a positive idea of Ukrainian nationality? What Ukrainians do when they do not fight either the Polish or the Russian? Where are their models, their archetypes?

    I am not an expert in Ukrainian history, but from a Polish perspective Ukraina seems to be born in blood (Chmielnicki, Nalewajko etc). Wołyń massacre just seemed a logical continuity of the series. So that generetes this picture of a wild barbarian.

    • Replies: @AP
  275. @AP

    Another question: was actually a role of religion (so called Union Greek-Catholic Church) so paramount in creating Ukrainian identity/nationality as it is often claimed…? I have never could really got my hands on this theory. I thought it is a kind of overplayed, similarly to Polish Catholicism.

    • Replies: @Yevardian
  276. utu says:
    @Polish Perspective

    I am not against reparations in some form, since Poland really did suffer for no fault of its own. I have also stated that I think the time for reparations is basically over.

    When I first heard about the reparations I thought the Poles would reject the idea because as you said the time for reparations was over and also because the concept of ‘blood money’ is not a part of Polish Catholic cultural code. But apparently they did not and the idea got some traction. I began to wonder what the machers behind this idea were really thinking. Did they genuinely believe that they would be able to squeeze money from Germany and at the same time bring relations between the two countries to the lowest level? A thought occurred to me that the creations of the meme: reparations from Germany had another objective solely directed at Poles. It was to seduce and corrupt by abandoning some moral principles which would later make them defenseless against similar claims against them. So, was it a psyop against Poles to prepare them to resign themselves and eventually accept Jewish claims, which supposedly are huge, for lost Jewish property? If so, it is safe to assume that Polish government is on it and does not intend to fight Jewish demands and its only job is to keep the the populace pacified. I will not be surprised that the next meme will be: Germans will pay us and we will pay the Jews.

    Israel Shamir in his previous article mentioned he was going to write about Poland and her troubles with Jews and Israel.

    • Replies: @German_reader
  277. Yevardian says:
    @Another Polish Perspective

    It’s simply one of the only ways Ukrainians can distinguish themselves from Russians, other than language. It doesn’t really make sense either, considering the Unionate only dates to Polish-Lithuanian occupation of their land.
    But it’s really, really not worth bringing up this topic here…unless you want to scroll through 100+ comments of pure vitriol. Which might be amusing if it didn’t happen every 5th thread.

  278. Mitleser says:
    @Another Polish Perspective

    I suggest you simply emigrate to Germany, I, on the other hand, am going to leave this country.

  279. @Mitleser

    I will answer ‘I was seriously afraid of a Russian invasion. And Russians do not really have Gründbucher’.

    But, seriously, Ich bin ein Breslauer. I come from Wroclaw, i.e West Poland. Finally, maybe I will move to Sopot, since I like sea.

    East Poland is a kind of interzone, I could never fully feel at home there (sich einfühlen/einleben).

    Maybe you know a joke about this problem: in Warsaw meet two trains, one Moskva-Paris, another Paris-Moskva. A Russian from the former asks, ‘is it Paris already?’, a French from the latter asks, ‘is it Moskva already?’.
    But in both cases it is just Warsaw.

    • Replies: @Mitleser
  280. @Yevardian

    I’d be curious to hear what German_Reader has to say on them.

    I’ve read neither Taylor nor Hillgruber tbh (I probably should…instead of wasting time on Unz review).
    Taylor, well, my father remembers him from when he was on television in Britain back in the 1960s, and despite my father being rather right-wing not in a bad way, so he can’t have been all bad (despite coming from that non-conformist tradition whose influence in Britain has probably been rather pernicious). His history of England 1914-1945 is probably still very readable. Not sure about his opinions about Germany, if I understand correctly, his argument was that Hitler was just continuing traditional German foreign policy, a sort of Kaiser Wilhelm 2.0. I disagree with that view and the demonization of imperial Germany implicit in it.
    As for Hillgruber, well, he was one of the participants in the famous Historikerstreit. On the side that lost. Since I have zero sympathy for the side that won, I cannot but feel some sympathy for him. I think his argument in Zweierlei Untergang (which I haven’t read, but my father has, so I know the basic argument) does have some merit, even if he may have exaggerated it (the expulsion of Germans from Eastern Europe and the lost eastern territories certainly wasn’t equivalent to the Holocaust). It’s of course not a view that will get much of a hearing today, since the dominant view is that Germans in the 1st half of the 20th century were the most evil people ever, with everyone else being fundamentally innocent and always merely reacting to German depravity (and despite what many will claim about alleged tendencies for revisionism, this actually is the dominant view in Germany itself today).

  281. @Mitleser

    lol, is that for real? Maybe it’s just me, but subtext I immediately think of is “What will you say when the Arabs and Africans have inundated Western Europe and you’re stuck here”.

  282. @utu

    . I will not be surprised that the next meme will be: Germans will pay us and we will pay the Jews.

    I’d find it hilarious if that actually happened.

  283. Mitleser says:
    @Another Polish Perspective

    Soon, Warsaw won’t be a joke.
    Varshava is rising.

  284. @German_reader

    It did already happened (was expressed), with the idea that Poles could split some percentage for Jews.
    I suppose it is condition sine qua non to make Jewish demands somehow equitable for Poles.

    • Replies: @German_reader
  285. @Another Polish Perspective

    It did already happened (was expressed), with the idea that Poles could split some percentage for Jews.

    You mean from the reparations Poland wants from Germany? Seems rather dubious to me, since Germany did already pay significant reparations to Israel.

  286. AP says:
    @Another Polish Perspective

    So tell me, what is a positive idea of Ukrainian nationality?

    Most Ukrainians emphasize their beautiful folk culture and religious customs, agricultural heritage, etc. more than they do liberation warfare.

    What Ukrainians do when they do not fight either the Polish or the Russian?

    Since Ukraine was occupied by Russia and Poland for much of its history, politically most of its figures have been people who fought one or the other. However the main figure they focus on is not a military one but the serf and poet Taras Shevchenko (granted, many of his poems were about Polish and Russian oppression).

    I imagine if Poland had been occupied not in the 1770s but in the 14th century it would have been the same for Poland.

    For that matter, however, every Polish figure from the 1770s to the 20th century could be described as anti-Russian or anti-German. I guess that means that Polish culture for centuries had no positive idea of nationality?

  287. Anonymous[363] • Disclaimer says:
    @Thorfinnsson

    Is the German cultural heritage important in terms of individual conscientiousness or organization of the firm? Is there a Mittelstand in Wisconsin?

  288. utu says:
    @German_reader

    For some reason Kissinger’s quote

    “To be an enemy of America can be dangerous, but to be a friend is fatal”.

    comes to my mind when observing Poland’s political games in recent years. As if there was no adult in the room.

  289. utu says:
    @Polish Perspective

    Ben-Gurion was going to the US in the early 1900s to do speeches in front of US audiences, both jewish and Christian, and openly comparing the “conquest of the land” to the conquest of the US by the European settlers. He was making direct references to “the reds” vis-a-vis the Palestinians.

    I heard the noises about Indians from chiefly Israeli Zionists now and then, so the comparison of Indians and Palestinians is still being used as a moral defense that they are doing exactly what Americans did, however they somehow miss the point of the legal doctrine that crimes of others in the past can’t be used to mitigate or justify your own crime.

    I think Hitler also wrote about American Indians and used their treatment as justification. There is Roskolnikov syndrome in it. It is pretty interesting where all those ideas come from in 19 century: Dostoyevsky and Nietzsche and others seem to be toying with some version of “might makes right” and that it is out there and if you take it it is yours. Then you can be like Napoleon in Raskolnikov’s mind. Obviously Dostoyevsky saw were it comes form and how to prevent it, meaning by means of Christianity, but for Hitler it was just an emulation of those who were successful in the past like British and Americans. Hitler was Raskolnikov.

    The so-called New Right movements seem to be pretty callous about Palestinians partly because they adopted this “might is right” concept which clearly show how intellectually stupid they are, because “might is right” is only for those who have the might. When you are an upstart like the New Right you should look for allies anywhere you can find them including among Palestinians and most importantly you can’t deprive yourself of very powerful weapon which is a moral argument. If you believe in “might is right” and have no real power you also have no soft power if you abandon moral arguments.

    • Replies: @German_reader
  290. @utu

    The so-called New Right movements seem to be pretty callous about Palestinians partly because they adopted this “might is right” concept

    There’s another reason: The Palestinians in Western countries (e.g. prominent “Palestinian-German” politicians Raed Saleh and Sawsan Chebli) are often just the usual Islamic subversives, pushing for multiculturalization and Islamicization of Europe. It’s a bit hard to feel sympathy for people who’ve lost their patria when they’re trying to take over and destroy yours.
    You have a point though about some elements of the new right, their amoral power-worship (in some cases including actual sympathy for imperialism) is rather repellent.

    • Replies: @utu
  291. @German_reader

    Well, it is all pretty dubious. I suppose JPM Morgan has some serious balance sheet problems…. But Poland’s Jewish citizen were 90% orthodox, anti-Zionists Hassidim. Why should any money paid in their name go to American Zionists, whom those religious Hassidim despised…?

  292. LatW says:
    @reiner Tor

    It’s all on Youtube. Some look unhinged. There were Czechs, Yugos, Frenchies, a Brazilian that they just caugbt hiding in a monastery. An Ossetian commander was just killed (a serious fighter).

  293. utu says:
    @German_reader

    There’s another reason – Absolutely. But still their main theme is their fight for homeland, building it and living there.

    As far as soft power here is an example. No media coverage MSM coverage expect for Russia, Iran,..

  294. Dmitry says:
    @for-the-record

    To compare Blumenthal — with whom I certainly do not always agree — with Saker, Shamir, etc. just

    Not really. I know a hundred times more than these cheap propagandists, and I would seriously question the gullibility of anyone who takes that kind of propaganda seriously.

    • Replies: @Yevardian
  295. @Mitleser

    In Germany, the AfD is underperforming among the youngest (and oldest) voters.

    Give them a couple of years to recover from their indoctrination at school. Besides, electionwise they are not as important as the other age brackets (as can been seen from the German age pyramid).

  296. dfordoom says: • Website
    @notanon

    AJP Taylor was a soviet agent of influence

    He was fairly pro-Soviet, but he was certainly pro-Soviet out of conviction.

    When you look back at the history of the Cold War it’s clear that Taylor was pretty much correct in his assessment.

  297. Yevardian says:
    @Dmitry

    Shamir doesn’t belong with those two non-entities, though his writing and analysis has certainly fallen off a cliff in recent years. He certainly isn’t writing with the acerbic wit he used to. I’ve read him long before Unz, though mostly for his prose and translations than any actual political insight. He is close friends with Julian Assange, so I wouldn’t write him off completely yet.

    http://www.israelshamir.net/English/Oligarch.htm

    http://www.israelshamir.net/shamirReaders/english/Shamir–Animal-Farm-Revisited.php

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