The Unz Review - Mobile
A Collection of Interesting, Important, and Controversial Perspectives Largely Excluded from the American Mainstream Media
 Russian Reaction BlogTeasers
A Future for ACLU Children
Email This Page to Someone

 Remember My Information



=>
Search Text Case Sensitive  Exact Words  Include Comments

So the other day ACLU Tweeted its intention to secure the existence of civil liberties and a future for free speech.

aclu-future-for-free-speech

Ironic joking and SJW meltdowns over photos of White children with American miniature flags aside, the politically correct peeps at ACLU (who apologized for their social justice faux pas immediately afterwards) were actually far more to the point than they could have possibly imagined.

Opinion polls have shown that in the US, it is the representatives of the demographic group on ACLU’s photo that tend to have the greatest respect for freedom of speech.

We can check this by throwing up a few graphs from the GSS.

gss-racist-speech

Only amongst Whites and Jews does a clear majority support allowing free speech for racists.

But maybe this is just White privilege at work here.

Maybe the 50% of Blacks who also support free speech for racists are victims of false consciousness foisted on them by structural White supremacy.

Unfortunately for Leftists, non-Whites don’t really much care for their pet causes either.

gss-antireligious-speech

Whites support freedom of speech for anti-religionists more than anyone else.

Okay, maybe this is just the neckbeard Dawkins fan club venting their Islamophobia?

gss-homo-speech

Oh no, this isn’t looking at all good now.

gss-commie-speech

Communist speech is the only category in which a non-White minority (Blacks) has a marginally higher respect for free speech than Whites.

And one supposes Nixon might have had a point about Jewish spies. :)

gss-radical-islamist-speech

When I was in Washington D.C. in 2013 there was some crazed Islamist ranting in front of the White House.

muslim-preacher-white-house

Though Whites are not exactly thrilled with this behavior, they seem to more or less tolerate it.

But just like the possibility of small government, this will probably cease to be the case in the increasingly vibrant and diverse America of the future.

And wheresoever goes the US so goes the world.

That is because the US remains a genuinely exceptional country when it comes to free speech.

The very fact that it is Internet lynch mobs and tech corporations – the collective Society 282 – that enforces social tabooes reminds one that this task is accomplished through laws and prisons in virtually every other country on the planet.

map-pew-free-speech-poll

Once the First Amendment is annulled in the US, or riddled with multifarious exceptions to the point where it is but an empty formality, the Enlightenment ideal of absolute free speech vanishes everywhere else in the world.

 
• Category: Race/Ethnicity • Tags: Free Speech, United States 
Commenters to Ignore...to FollowEndorsed Only
    []
  1. Seems like the US has a problem with importing authoritarian immigrants. The results for US blacks actually don’t seem that bad (given US history their negative feelings about racists at least are understandable, so the 50% in favour of free speech is actually remarkable). The values for “Asians” though…lol. Looks like even high-skilled immigrants often bring highly undesirable baggage with them.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
    Had some good replies about that on Twitter:

    https://twitter.com/HHH_Report/status/900783469869113344
    , @Anon
    American Blacks are not generic Americans like the American Whites, but they are the generic American minority. On the other hand, Asians are latecomers in America who did not shape this country. It is not surprising that a large percentage of them does not share American values.
    , @Parbes
    The category of "Asians" in the graphs above is so broad as to be meaningless. Lumping all of the multifarious people from such a huge, ethnically, religiously and culturally diverse continent as Asia into one single category of "Asians", just because for most Americans they all come from "that side of the globe", is very misleading and even stupid. East Asians (Chinese, Japanese, Koreans, Filipinos etc.), non-Muslim South Asians (Hindus and the various Buddhist nations), and Muslim Asians (Middle Easterners, Muslim South and Southeast Asians) are all very different from one another in terms of culture, temperament and outlook. Judging from the answers for the category of "Asians" above, the sampling in the poll above seems to be numerically heavily weighted towards Muslims and South Asians.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
    AgreeDisagreeLOLTroll
    These buttons register your public Agreement, Disagreement, Troll, or LOL with the selected comment. They are ONLY available to recent, frequent commenters who have saved their Name+Email using the 'Remember My Information' checkbox, and may also ONLY be used once per hour.
    Sharing Comment via Twitter
    /akarlin/future-for-aclu-children/#comment-1981842
    More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  2. Anon says: • Disclaimer

    Why is there such a large gap between Poland and Ukropland?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
    Because Ukraine combines the worst of Polish and Russian civilization.
  3. @Anon
    Why is there such a large gap between Poland and Ukropland?

    Because Ukraine combines the worst of Polish and Russian civilization.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    Funny, I don't see Ukrainians poaching on their neighbors' lands, as the Poles have done in the past, and the Russians are still doing today?...

    I realize that according to your revisionist views of history, Lenin sewed together a state called Ukraine that had no basis to exist. However, you always seem to overlook that fact that Ukrainians formed the majority ethnicity in all the lands stitched together, except the Crimea (they were the second or possibly the third largest ethnicity there). Ukrainians had to live under the imperial designs of their neighbors, the Russians, Poles and Austrians. Today they're only asking that their neighbors leave them alone and let them continue their state building processes.

  4. @German_reader
    Seems like the US has a problem with importing authoritarian immigrants. The results for US blacks actually don't seem that bad (given US history their negative feelings about racists at least are understandable, so the 50% in favour of free speech is actually remarkable). The values for "Asians" though...lol. Looks like even high-skilled immigrants often bring highly undesirable baggage with them.

    Had some good replies about that on Twitter:

    Read More
  5. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer

    Disagree with the whole ‘U.S. exceptionalism on free speech’ in the sense that any real differences in what can be said and consequences thereof are relatively small. This is reasonably apparent from the fact that there are no ideas or positions that are only heard publicly in the U.S. and not elsewhere.

    We all know there are massive social penalties for expressing forbidden opinions in the U.S. (and elsewhere), from being fired to being denied the service of every business imaginable. This is not new, although in the past the banned ideas were more limited in scope (e.g. criticism of a particular ethnic group and its country) and to some degree on the other side of the spectrum (communism, atheism then vs. alt right now).

    The aforementioned ethnic group, somewhat belying the GSS results, has also moved to make opposition to its country illegal.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Tulip
    Point taken, but I imagine someone doing hard time in a German prison somewhere for wrongthink publications might conclude that the consequences weren't "relatively small".
    , @notanon

    We all know there are massive social penalties for expressing forbidden opinions in the U.S.
     
    PC can be seen as a way to get around the #1A by imposing social penalties.

    there are no ideas or positions that are only heard publicly in the U.S. and not elsewhere.
     
    100% not true. information on the terrible things happening in Europe are often only available on US websites. defending the #1A is vital for everyone.
  6. Mr. Hack says:
    @Anatoly Karlin
    Because Ukraine combines the worst of Polish and Russian civilization.

    Funny, I don’t see Ukrainians poaching on their neighbors’ lands, as the Poles have done in the past, and the Russians are still doing today?…

    I realize that according to your revisionist views of history, Lenin sewed together a state called Ukraine that had no basis to exist. However, you always seem to overlook that fact that Ukrainians formed the majority ethnicity in all the lands stitched together, except the Crimea (they were the second or possibly the third largest ethnicity there). Ukrainians had to live under the imperial designs of their neighbors, the Russians, Poles and Austrians. Today they’re only asking that their neighbors leave them alone and let them continue their state building processes.

    Read More
    • Replies: @DFH
    Worst thing the Ukranians ever did was the Khmelnytsky uprising which ruined Poland-Lithuania and hence the best chance Eastern Europe ever had for resisting Western/Rossiyan imperialism
    , @Anon
    If Ukraine has never expanded at the cost of its neighbors, how do you explain their possession of the Snake Island?
  7. Tulip says:
    @Anonymous
    Disagree with the whole 'U.S. exceptionalism on free speech' in the sense that any real differences in what can be said and consequences thereof are relatively small. This is reasonably apparent from the fact that there are no ideas or positions that are only heard publicly in the U.S. and not elsewhere.

    We all know there are massive social penalties for expressing forbidden opinions in the U.S. (and elsewhere), from being fired to being denied the service of every business imaginable. This is not new, although in the past the banned ideas were more limited in scope (e.g. criticism of a particular ethnic group and its country) and to some degree on the other side of the spectrum (communism, atheism then vs. alt right now).

    The aforementioned ethnic group, somewhat belying the GSS results, has also moved to make opposition to its country illegal.

    Point taken, but I imagine someone doing hard time in a German prison somewhere for wrongthink publications might conclude that the consequences weren’t “relatively small”.

    Read More
  8. notanon says:
    @Anonymous
    Disagree with the whole 'U.S. exceptionalism on free speech' in the sense that any real differences in what can be said and consequences thereof are relatively small. This is reasonably apparent from the fact that there are no ideas or positions that are only heard publicly in the U.S. and not elsewhere.

    We all know there are massive social penalties for expressing forbidden opinions in the U.S. (and elsewhere), from being fired to being denied the service of every business imaginable. This is not new, although in the past the banned ideas were more limited in scope (e.g. criticism of a particular ethnic group and its country) and to some degree on the other side of the spectrum (communism, atheism then vs. alt right now).

    The aforementioned ethnic group, somewhat belying the GSS results, has also moved to make opposition to its country illegal.

    We all know there are massive social penalties for expressing forbidden opinions in the U.S.

    PC can be seen as a way to get around the #1A by imposing social penalties.

    there are no ideas or positions that are only heard publicly in the U.S. and not elsewhere.

    100% not true. information on the terrible things happening in Europe are often only available on US websites. defending the #1A is vital for everyone.

    Read More
  9. Cyrano says:

    Communists used to have a catchy little slogan: “Dictatorship of the proletariat”. Or in other words – Oppression by the oppressed. Kind of contradiction in terms.

    Meaning that those who have been oppressed cannot be oppressors. Pretty clever. It was supposed to point to the humanism of the whole Communist rule. In reality there was no dictatorship of the proletariat, but dictatorship of Communist party leaders over the proletariat.

    Now what the rich elites in US are trying to do is variation on the same theme. The “racists” are the bad guys or in other words – oppressors. By denying them a free speech, the rich elites are oppressing the oppressors, which makes the rich elites the good guys. And how can that be a bad thing – oppressing the oppressors? Which is also a load of bull.

    The rich elites are the original oppressors, the original racists, they are the ones that brought the N words as slaves to US and now in their latest reincarnation of philanthropy, they nicely transferred the guilt of those days to the poor working class and pitted them against their former involuntary proteges.

    If that’s not a masterful manipulation, I don’t know what is. And at the end of the day (and sometimes even at the beginning of the next one), the rich elites are the good guys. And the class struggle is buried somewhere on the last page of the newspaper, among the obituaries.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anon
    Actually no. The phrase "dictatorship of the proletariat" was not mean to show how nice the new regime was. It was a dictatorship of the proletariat. It will take you 10 minutes of reading through Marx Manifesto to understand that proper communists are only the workers, because bourgeois and lumpenproletariat (the poorer-than-workers class, such as prostitutes and NEETs) are easily bought out or fooled to fight for the rich, and against the revolution.
    It was an assumed dictatorship, no niceties.
  10. Mr. XYZ says:

    : It’s interesting that the Hispanic figures are so low in spite of the fact that Latin American countries generally appear to be pretty supportive of free speech (as per the map in your blog post).

    Do you have any ideas why this might be the case, Anatoly?

    : There was already an independent Ukrainian state before the Bolsheviks created the Ukrainian SSR. Indeed, for all of Anatoly’s talk about how Ukrainians should be grateful to the Bolsheviks for the creation of the Ukrainian SSR, it is worth noting that had Germany won World War I, there would have still been an independent Ukrainian state but without all of the horrors, brutality, and catastrophes of Communist rule (for all of their flaws, I certainly can’t imagine Imperial Germany being worse than the USSR was in regards to its treatment of White people).

    Also, as we both know, Anatoly believes that universal literacy in Ukraine and Belarus would have turned Ukrainians and Belarusians into Russians during the 20th century in the absence of Bolshevism. However, the great irony is that the Russification measures which would have likely had the most success–such as a revival of the Ems Ukaz–involved violating free speech and free expression–something that Anatoly condemns (as evidenced by this blog post of his, among others).

    Read More
    • Agree: Mr. Hack
    • Replies: @Medvedev
    Neither Malorussians, nor Ruthenians viewed themselves as Ukrainians until mid of 19th century.
    Even Lviv, which is considered a heart of Ukrainian nationalist movement, had Ruthenian (Rus'ka in original) organizations like Supreme Ruthenian (Rus'ka) Council etc.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supreme_Ruthenian_Council
    https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sob%C3%B3r_Uczonych_Ruskich

    'Ukrainian nation' was a creation of Austrian government that was cemented by Communists. If it hadn't been for Communists:
    - either Malorussians would have remained part of big Russian ethnicity
    - or they would have formed into a separate nation that would have preserved Russian/Rus'kiy spirit, same way as independent Austria or Switzerland keep close bond with German identity.

    , @Seamus Padraig

    There was already an independent Ukrainian state before the Bolsheviks created the Ukrainian SSR.
     
    Yes, but it was considerably smaller than modern-day Ukraine, as it did not include Crimea or most of Novorossiya. In fact, until 1939, it did not even include Galicia/Volhynia, which was then ruled by Poland, and had formerly been part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire. All of that territory was added to the Ukrainian SSR by the Soviet government, essentially doubling the size of Ukraine. Whether all of the people in those territories actually consider themselves Ukrainian or not usually depends on what is meant by the word 'Ukrainian'.

    ... it is worth noting that had Germany won World War I, there would have still been an independent Ukrainian state but without all of the horrors, brutality, and catastrophes of Communist rule (for all of their flaws, I certainly can’t imagine Imperial Germany being worse than the USSR was in regards to its treatment of White people).
     
    It is arguably true that there would have been no famines, and it almost certainly true that there would have been no 'dekulakization' programs; however, as a German satellite state, Ukraine's independence would have been, at best, merely notional:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Septemberprogramm
    , @Anon

    Indeed, for all of Anatoly’s talk about how Ukrainians should be grateful to the Bolsheviks for the creation of the Ukrainian SSR, it is worth noting that had Germany won World War I, there would have still been an independent Ukrainian state but without all of the horrors, brutality, and catastrophes of Communist rule (for all of their flaws, I certainly can’t imagine Imperial Germany being worse than the USSR was in regards to its treatment of White people).
     
    Why wouldn't Imperial Germany care less about a bunch of Untermenschen than the Communists who regarded them as fellow citizens whose country deserved to be developed?
    For Imperial Germany, the Ukraine was just a conquered buffer, not an "independent" country.
  11. Mr. Hack says:

    However, the great irony is that the Russification measures which would have likely had the most success–such as a revival of the Ems Ukaz–involved violating free speech and free expression–something that Anatoly condemns (as evidenced by this blog post of his, among others).’

    I’m not sure that Anatoly is familiar with the Ems Ukas, nor for that matter the Valuev Circular. His knowledge of Ukrainian history seems quite limited, and what he does know seems to be regurgitated to him through the lens of modern day black shirted ‘scholars’. In any case, his knowledge and uncritical endorsement of these draconian and anti democratic pronouncements seem to fly in the face of his tepid endorsements of free speech and free expression. :-(

    Read More
  12. Selvar says:

    Congratulations. This post put to rest any lingering doubts I might have had about the relative cost/benefit of East Asian immigration. Shut.It.Down.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Parbes
    The category of “Asians” in the graphs above is so broad as to be meaningless. Lumping all of the multifarious people from such a huge, ethnically, religiously and culturally diverse continent as Asia into one single category of “Asians”, just because for most Americans they all come from “that side of the globe”, is very misleading and even stupid. East Asians (Chinese, Japanese, Koreans, Filipinos etc.), non-Muslim South Asians (Hindus and the various Buddhist nations), and Muslim Asians (Middle Easterners, Muslim South and Southeast Asians) are all very different from one another in terms of culture, temperament and outlook. Judging from the answers for the category of “Asians” above, the sampling in the poll above seems to be numerically heavily weighted towards Muslims and South Asians - NOT East Asians.
  13. Cyrano says:

    I agree with Anatoly that Ukraine doesn’t qualify to be a separate nation. They are a subset of the Russian nation. The Communists in their infinite wisdom decided to allow self-determination for any possible delusions regarding national identity – this was supposed to solve the national issue once and for all.

    Communists would have allowed even a group of people to declare themselves Martians – if they choose to do so – in order not to offend anyone’s sensibilities.

    Ukrainians’ fate is similar to that of the North American Indians – they are indigenous to the land, but obviously not the best suited to rule that land. Because Ukraine’s state building institutions are not strong enough, they are subject to exploitation by foreign powers.

    Perhaps the best solution would be to mimic the solution that the Greatest Democracy found for the indigenous people of North America. The “Ukrainians” should be hoarded into reservations either on their native land, or maybe transfer them to some other nice locale like Siberia and then allow them there to build few casinos in order to support themselves.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Mr. Hack

    The “Ukrainians” should be hoarded into reservations either on their native land, or maybe transfer them to some other nice locale like Siberia and then allow them there to build few casinos in order to support themselves.
     
    And Ukrainophobes like you should be shunted off to the nearest funny farm for making ludicrous statements like the ones you exhibit here. A series of labotomy surges should do wonders for what's ailing you!
  14. Mr. XYZ says:

    : Yeah, there definitely appears to be some tension between being vehemently in favor of free speech and being in favor of French-style nation-building (which was definitely coercive to an extent).

    Honestly, I can understand why Anatoly would be upset at the so-called missed opportunity in regards to Russifying Ukrainians and Belarusians (though, as I previously said, I think that the real “missed opportunity” for Russia was not acquiring eastern Galicia early enough). However, in the grand scheme of things, having separate Russian, Ukrainian, and Belarusian states is no more unusual than having separate Kazakh and Kyrgyz states, separate Bulgarian and Macedonian states, separate Romanian and Moldovan states, separate German, Austrian, and Swiss states, separate Norwegian, Swedish, and Danish states, separate Albanian and Kosovar states, separate Thai and Laotian states, et cetera. In other words, in the grand scheme of things, there is absolutely nothing unusual or unnatural about Russia, Ukraine, and Belarus being separate countries.

    : I think that the Bolsheviks simply capitalized on the existing nationalistic sentiments in Ukraine in order to advance their cause (basically, they wanted to turn Ukrainian and other nationalists into Bolsheviks). After all, AP previously mentioned how Ukrainians mostly voted for pro-Ukrainian parties in the 1917 Russian elections.

    Also, what Ukraine needs is a leadership which will successfully deal with its corruption problem. In short, what this means is turning Ukraine’s roving bandits into stationary bandits–in the words of Anatoly Karlin.

    Read More
    • Agree: AP
    • Replies: @Pavlo
    Every Ukrainian attempt at independence could fairly be described as blood-soaked slapstick comedy. Nobody but criminals and losers live in the Ukraine if they have any choice in the matter, so if you want to have a Ukrainian state, that is what you have to build it on.
  15. I actually don’t think there’s anything predisposing (NW) Europeans to free speech, as is manifested in the bizarre anti hate-speech moves occurring throughout NW Europe and derived societies. A more parsimonious explanation: NW Euros have been moving down a vector towards FULL CUCKOLDRY.

    In the 1960s, the ideal of “Free Speech” aligned with support for the CRM and opposition to the Vietnam War.

    In the 2010s, the ideal of “Free Speech” aligns with libertarian or conservative views that violate social justice shibboleths.

    NW Euros only like Free Speech when it moves them towards FULL CUCKOLDRY.

    Read More
  16. Mr. Hack says:
    @Cyrano
    I agree with Anatoly that Ukraine doesn’t qualify to be a separate nation. They are a subset of the Russian nation. The Communists in their infinite wisdom decided to allow self-determination for any possible delusions regarding national identity – this was supposed to solve the national issue once and for all.

    Communists would have allowed even a group of people to declare themselves Martians – if they choose to do so - in order not to offend anyone’s sensibilities.

    Ukrainians’ fate is similar to that of the North American Indians – they are indigenous to the land, but obviously not the best suited to rule that land. Because Ukraine’s state building institutions are not strong enough, they are subject to exploitation by foreign powers.

    Perhaps the best solution would be to mimic the solution that the Greatest Democracy found for the indigenous people of North America. The “Ukrainians” should be hoarded into reservations either on their native land, or maybe transfer them to some other nice locale like Siberia and then allow them there to build few casinos in order to support themselves.

    The “Ukrainians” should be hoarded into reservations either on their native land, or maybe transfer them to some other nice locale like Siberia and then allow them there to build few casinos in order to support themselves.

    And Ukrainophobes like you should be shunted off to the nearest funny farm for making ludicrous statements like the ones you exhibit here. A series of labotomy surges should do wonders for what’s ailing you!

    Read More
    • Replies: @Cyrano
    You know my friend, the treatments that you suggest for me should actually be applied to the Ukrainian “nation” as a whole, for the morons that they are. What’s wrong with those people? How do you get manipulated into starting a war against fellow Slavs? And not just any Slavs, but the Russians?

    Without Russia, Ukraine would have ceased to exist long time ago. They would have fallen as a pray either to the Tatars, the Ottomans, Polaks, Germans and maybe even Rumanians. Ukraine is a disgrace for the whole Slavs. How can they even think that the Americans care for them? Americans don’t care about anybody but themselves, and even then they care only for parts of themselves not the whole of themselves.
  17. Really weird that Asian Americans are so anti-free speech, they seem to be quite forward. #whiterice

    Read More
    • Replies: @Parbes
    The category of “Asians” in the graphs above is so broad as to be meaningless. Lumping all of the multifarious people from such a huge, ethnically, religiously and culturally diverse continent as Asia into one single category of “Asians”, just because for most Americans they all come from “that side of the globe”, is very misleading and even stupid. East Asians (Chinese, Japanese, Koreans, Filipinos etc.), non-Muslim South Asians (Hindus and the various Buddhist nations), and Muslim Asians (Middle Easterners, Muslim South and Southeast Asians) are all very different from one another in terms of culture, temperament and outlook. Judging from the answers for the category of “Asians” above (ESPECIALLY the answers regarding "tolerance for anti-religious speech"), the sampling in the poll above seems to be numerically heavily weighted towards Muslims and South Asians – NOT East Asians.
  18. DFH says:
    @Mr. Hack
    Funny, I don't see Ukrainians poaching on their neighbors' lands, as the Poles have done in the past, and the Russians are still doing today?...

    I realize that according to your revisionist views of history, Lenin sewed together a state called Ukraine that had no basis to exist. However, you always seem to overlook that fact that Ukrainians formed the majority ethnicity in all the lands stitched together, except the Crimea (they were the second or possibly the third largest ethnicity there). Ukrainians had to live under the imperial designs of their neighbors, the Russians, Poles and Austrians. Today they're only asking that their neighbors leave them alone and let them continue their state building processes.

    Worst thing the Ukranians ever did was the Khmelnytsky uprising which ruined Poland-Lithuania and hence the best chance Eastern Europe ever had for resisting Western/Rossiyan imperialism

    Read More
    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    What can I say? The Poles blew it by not taking the Ukrainians seriously. The Treaty of Hadiach would have put the Ukrainian lands on an equal footing with the Polish and Lithuanian constituent parts of the old Commonwealth, but even though the Treaty was signed and agreed to (1658), it never took a hold and left the Ukrainian problem unresolved. Poland actually fell a part due to the unresolved Ukrainian issues. Russia would benefit from treating Ukraine more friendly and thus minimize its own possibility of any future economic or political decline (the economic mess that it’s in already is evident due to its fool hearty policies towards Ukraine).
    , @AP
    They were pushed into the rebellion by policies of (ironically) local Rus magnates. Khmelnytsky actually appealed to the Polish king for help. To an extent the uprising was an intra-Ukrainian civil war - Polonized Rus magnates and their private armies on one side, lesser Rus nobles and peasants on the other.
  19. Medvedev says:
    @Mr. XYZ
    @Anatoly Karlin: It's interesting that the Hispanic figures are so low in spite of the fact that Latin American countries generally appear to be pretty supportive of free speech (as per the map in your blog post).

    Do you have any ideas why this might be the case, Anatoly?

    @Mr. Hack: There was already an independent Ukrainian state before the Bolsheviks created the Ukrainian SSR. Indeed, for all of Anatoly's talk about how Ukrainians should be grateful to the Bolsheviks for the creation of the Ukrainian SSR, it is worth noting that had Germany won World War I, there would have still been an independent Ukrainian state but without all of the horrors, brutality, and catastrophes of Communist rule (for all of their flaws, I certainly can't imagine Imperial Germany being worse than the USSR was in regards to its treatment of White people).

    Also, as we both know, Anatoly believes that universal literacy in Ukraine and Belarus would have turned Ukrainians and Belarusians into Russians during the 20th century in the absence of Bolshevism. However, the great irony is that the Russification measures which would have likely had the most success--such as a revival of the Ems Ukaz--involved violating free speech and free expression--something that Anatoly condemns (as evidenced by this blog post of his, among others).

    Neither Malorussians, nor Ruthenians viewed themselves as Ukrainians until mid of 19th century.
    Even Lviv, which is considered a heart of Ukrainian nationalist movement, had Ruthenian (Rus’ka in original) organizations like Supreme Ruthenian (Rus’ka) Council etc.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supreme_Ruthenian_Council

    https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sob%C3%B3r_Uczonych_Ruskich

    ‘Ukrainian nation’ was a creation of Austrian government that was cemented by Communists. If it hadn’t been for Communists:
    - either Malorussians would have remained part of big Russian ethnicity
    - or they would have formed into a separate nation that would have preserved Russian/Rus’kiy spirit, same way as independent Austria or Switzerland keep close bond with German identity.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    The ethnonyms 'Ruthenians' and 'Malorussians' (and one could add 'Rusyn' too) were all precursor terms for the modern appellation 'Ukrainian'. The Ukrainian nation had name changes during its evolutionary process, as have so many other nationalities in the world. I read somewhere that the Chinese have had something on the order of 9 such changes in their long and varied ethnogenesis.
    , @Mr. Hack

    'Ukrainian nation’ was a creation of Austrian government'
     
    Really? Are you sure that this isn't some kind of a fantastical trope with no actual basis in reality? Care to expand on this notion just a little bit and provide some names and dates to substantiate this obvious fabrication?
    , @AP

    Neither Malorussians, nor Ruthenians viewed themselves as Ukrainians until mid of 19th century.
     
    They did not collectively refer to themselves by that name until that time, certainly. This does not mean, of course, that they thought of themselves as Russians (Great Russians, in those times) though Rus patriotism was strong among the elites.

    Even Lviv, which is considered a heart of Ukrainian nationalist movement, had Ruthenian (Rus’ka in original) organizations like Supreme Ruthenian (Rus’ka) Council etc.
     
    Correct. One of the oldest streets in that city, by the market square, settled by Ukrainians/Ruthenians, is Rus'ka Street.

    ‘Ukrainian nation’ was a creation of Austrian government
     
    So which Austrian government official standardized the Ukrainian language, wrote Ukrainian literature, wrote Ukrainian history, etc.?

    The Austrian government played the same role in Ukrainian identity formation as the Russian one played in Latvian or Estonian identity formation. Seeking to limit the power of local elites (Polish/Polonized in Galicia, German in the Baltics) the central government allowed free reign to local activists to mobilize the poorer, more rural majorities in the territory. In Galicia this included allowing a bunch of Ukrainian nationalists exiled from the Russian Empire to settle in.

    So to be accurate, the "Ukrainian nation" was the creation of exiled Ukrainians from central and Eastern Ukraine, primarily of Cossack officer and petty noble descent.

    BTW, prior to the souring of relations between Russia and Austria-Hungary, the Austrian government was promoting Russophile ideas in Galicia, in opposition to Polonophilia. Austrians switched to supporting Ukrainian nationalists later. Will you admit that the Russia idea is also an Austrian creation?


    that was cemented by Communists. If it hadn’t been for Communists:
    - either Malorussians would have remained part of big Russian ethnicity
     
    A fairy tale.

    - In 1917 Ukrainian national parties easily won the vote in Ukrainian areas of Russia.

    - During the Russian Civil war there were zero significant forces or people of Ukrainian/Little Russian from Ukraine. There were various Ukrainian nationalist warlords, the anarchist Makhno, but not a single military force or leader who could be considered a Ukrainian or Little Russian fought for any sort of Russian idea. Some ethnic Ukrainians from outside Ukraine (such as Kuban) fought for the Whites, but none from Ukraine did.

    As someone else noted, Bolsheviks capitalized on already existing feelings, they didn't create Ukrainian identity.

    Russians have historically botched their relationship with Ukraine, probably due to their wishful thinking and ignorance about the place.


    or they would have formed into a separate nation that would have preserved Russian/Rus’kiy spirit, same way as independent Austria or Switzerland keep close bond with German identity.
     
    A more realistic analogy would have been Norway and Sweden, Scandinavian countries with generally friendly ties. But historically, the St, Petersburg government expanded serfdom in Ukraine and crushed local autonomy, the Moscow government starved to death millions of people, and the new one now make possible a low-grade civil war. Such policies don't promote a shared sentimental spirit.
  20. JL says:

    Jews seem pretty freeze peachy. Perhaps there should have been an “allow anti-Semite” or “allow anti-Zionist” to speak question. The ACLU sure had their hands full in Skokie. Incidentally, that was the Supreme Court decision that essentially legalized the swastika.

    Read More
  21. Nice article. I’m sure this has been asked many times before, but: how do you produce the GSS graphs?

    It would be nice if you could “show your work” for these kinds of graphs so we could easily replicate them and play around with them. You do already helpfully give us the names of the variables, but…

    I did a quick try with the GSS data explorer https://gssdataexplorer.norc.org/ without much luck. Perhaps the Berkeley SDA site would be better, but it is also a bit daunting http://sda.berkeley.edu/ Is there an easy way?…

    Maybe Luke Muehlhauser’s “GSS Tutorial #1: Basic trends over time” is a good starting point for learning how to do this kind of analysis? http://lukemuehlhauser.com/gss-tutorial-1-basic-trends-over-time/

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
    I'm a noob at GSS, I only got into it several months ago (and not in any serious or systemic way).

    I use this tool: http://sda.berkeley.edu/cgi-bin/hsda?harcsda+gss14

    Percentaging by row gives the relevant data in this case. I then just manually extract the data and build the graphs myself.

    Audacious Epigone is the real master at this, and much more qualified to write a guide than myself, so I sent him a request.
  22. Mr. Hack says:
    @DFH
    Worst thing the Ukranians ever did was the Khmelnytsky uprising which ruined Poland-Lithuania and hence the best chance Eastern Europe ever had for resisting Western/Rossiyan imperialism

    What can I say? The Poles blew it by not taking the Ukrainians seriously. The Treaty of Hadiach would have put the Ukrainian lands on an equal footing with the Polish and Lithuanian constituent parts of the old Commonwealth, but even though the Treaty was signed and agreed to (1658), it never took a hold and left the Ukrainian problem unresolved. Poland actually fell a part due to the unresolved Ukrainian issues. Russia would benefit from treating Ukraine more friendly and thus minimize its own possibility of any future economic or political decline (the economic mess that it’s in already is evident due to its fool hearty policies towards Ukraine).

    Read More
  23. Mr. Hack says:
    @Medvedev
    Neither Malorussians, nor Ruthenians viewed themselves as Ukrainians until mid of 19th century.
    Even Lviv, which is considered a heart of Ukrainian nationalist movement, had Ruthenian (Rus'ka in original) organizations like Supreme Ruthenian (Rus'ka) Council etc.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supreme_Ruthenian_Council
    https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sob%C3%B3r_Uczonych_Ruskich

    'Ukrainian nation' was a creation of Austrian government that was cemented by Communists. If it hadn't been for Communists:
    - either Malorussians would have remained part of big Russian ethnicity
    - or they would have formed into a separate nation that would have preserved Russian/Rus'kiy spirit, same way as independent Austria or Switzerland keep close bond with German identity.

    The ethnonyms ‘Ruthenians’ and ‘Malorussians’ (and one could add ‘Rusyn’ too) were all precursor terms for the modern appellation ‘Ukrainian’. The Ukrainian nation had name changes during its evolutionary process, as have so many other nationalities in the world. I read somewhere that the Chinese have had something on the order of 9 such changes in their long and varied ethnogenesis.

    Read More
  24. Anon says: • Disclaimer

    All we see here is the difference in schooling. Those who say they have nothing against free speech are the ones who wrote the report showing Russia manipulated US elections. (There’s that famous 5 page report saying that Russia, horror of horrors, runs a state TV for overseas viewers.) They are the ones who pulled Al Jazeera off cable service across US, the third day after it was bought by the Qatari. But look, there’s a mumbling moron in front of the White House, surely that means freedom!

    Very good at lips service, these chosen people. I bet that, in their hearts, they believe they are making the world a better place.

    Read More
  25. Mr. Hack says:
    @Medvedev
    Neither Malorussians, nor Ruthenians viewed themselves as Ukrainians until mid of 19th century.
    Even Lviv, which is considered a heart of Ukrainian nationalist movement, had Ruthenian (Rus'ka in original) organizations like Supreme Ruthenian (Rus'ka) Council etc.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supreme_Ruthenian_Council
    https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sob%C3%B3r_Uczonych_Ruskich

    'Ukrainian nation' was a creation of Austrian government that was cemented by Communists. If it hadn't been for Communists:
    - either Malorussians would have remained part of big Russian ethnicity
    - or they would have formed into a separate nation that would have preserved Russian/Rus'kiy spirit, same way as independent Austria or Switzerland keep close bond with German identity.

    ‘Ukrainian nation’ was a creation of Austrian government’

    Really? Are you sure that this isn’t some kind of a fantastical trope with no actual basis in reality? Care to expand on this notion just a little bit and provide some names and dates to substantiate this obvious fabrication?

    Read More
  26. AP says:
    @DFH
    Worst thing the Ukranians ever did was the Khmelnytsky uprising which ruined Poland-Lithuania and hence the best chance Eastern Europe ever had for resisting Western/Rossiyan imperialism

    They were pushed into the rebellion by policies of (ironically) local Rus magnates. Khmelnytsky actually appealed to the Polish king for help. To an extent the uprising was an intra-Ukrainian civil war – Polonized Rus magnates and their private armies on one side, lesser Rus nobles and peasants on the other.

    Read More
  27. AP says:
    @Medvedev
    Neither Malorussians, nor Ruthenians viewed themselves as Ukrainians until mid of 19th century.
    Even Lviv, which is considered a heart of Ukrainian nationalist movement, had Ruthenian (Rus'ka in original) organizations like Supreme Ruthenian (Rus'ka) Council etc.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supreme_Ruthenian_Council
    https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sob%C3%B3r_Uczonych_Ruskich

    'Ukrainian nation' was a creation of Austrian government that was cemented by Communists. If it hadn't been for Communists:
    - either Malorussians would have remained part of big Russian ethnicity
    - or they would have formed into a separate nation that would have preserved Russian/Rus'kiy spirit, same way as independent Austria or Switzerland keep close bond with German identity.

    Neither Malorussians, nor Ruthenians viewed themselves as Ukrainians until mid of 19th century.

    They did not collectively refer to themselves by that name until that time, certainly. This does not mean, of course, that they thought of themselves as Russians (Great Russians, in those times) though Rus patriotism was strong among the elites.

    Even Lviv, which is considered a heart of Ukrainian nationalist movement, had Ruthenian (Rus’ka in original) organizations like Supreme Ruthenian (Rus’ka) Council etc.

    Correct. One of the oldest streets in that city, by the market square, settled by Ukrainians/Ruthenians, is Rus’ka Street.

    ‘Ukrainian nation’ was a creation of Austrian government

    So which Austrian government official standardized the Ukrainian language, wrote Ukrainian literature, wrote Ukrainian history, etc.?

    The Austrian government played the same role in Ukrainian identity formation as the Russian one played in Latvian or Estonian identity formation. Seeking to limit the power of local elites (Polish/Polonized in Galicia, German in the Baltics) the central government allowed free reign to local activists to mobilize the poorer, more rural majorities in the territory. In Galicia this included allowing a bunch of Ukrainian nationalists exiled from the Russian Empire to settle in.

    So to be accurate, the “Ukrainian nation” was the creation of exiled Ukrainians from central and Eastern Ukraine, primarily of Cossack officer and petty noble descent.

    BTW, prior to the souring of relations between Russia and Austria-Hungary, the Austrian government was promoting Russophile ideas in Galicia, in opposition to Polonophilia. Austrians switched to supporting Ukrainian nationalists later. Will you admit that the Russia idea is also an Austrian creation?

    that was cemented by Communists. If it hadn’t been for Communists:
    - either Malorussians would have remained part of big Russian ethnicity

    A fairy tale.

    - In 1917 Ukrainian national parties easily won the vote in Ukrainian areas of Russia.

    - During the Russian Civil war there were zero significant forces or people of Ukrainian/Little Russian from Ukraine. There were various Ukrainian nationalist warlords, the anarchist Makhno, but not a single military force or leader who could be considered a Ukrainian or Little Russian fought for any sort of Russian idea. Some ethnic Ukrainians from outside Ukraine (such as Kuban) fought for the Whites, but none from Ukraine did.

    As someone else noted, Bolsheviks capitalized on already existing feelings, they didn’t create Ukrainian identity.

    Russians have historically botched their relationship with Ukraine, probably due to their wishful thinking and ignorance about the place.

    or they would have formed into a separate nation that would have preserved Russian/Rus’kiy spirit, same way as independent Austria or Switzerland keep close bond with German identity.

    A more realistic analogy would have been Norway and Sweden, Scandinavian countries with generally friendly ties. But historically, the St, Petersburg government expanded serfdom in Ukraine and crushed local autonomy, the Moscow government starved to death millions of people, and the new one now make possible a low-grade civil war. Such policies don’t promote a shared sentimental spirit.

    Read More
    • Agree: Mr. Hack
    • Replies: @Mr. Hack

    Seeking to limit the power of local elites (Polish/Polonized in Galicia, German in the Baltics) the central government allowed free reign to local activists to mobilize the poorer, more rural majorities in the territory. In Galicia this included allowing a bunch of Ukrainian nationalists exiled from the Russian Empire to settle in.
     
    Agree. The politically astute Hapsburg government was in effect playing the old game of 'divide and conquer' which was commonly a tactic used by imperial powers. This, however, was a far cry from the ridiculous notion that the 'Ukrainian nation was a creation of the Austrian government', something that unfortunately is repeated over and over by Russsophile fanatics. BTW, since you bring up the Ukrainiphiles from Eastern Ukraine migrating to Western Ukraine, have you had the opportunity yet to read the new book by Johanes Remy, 'Brothers Or Enemies: The Ukrainian National Movement and Russia from the 1840s to the 1870s'? http://www.history.ac.uk/reviews/review/2090
    , @Medvedev

    St, Petersburg government expanded serfdom in Ukraine and crushed local autonomy, the Moscow government starved to death millions of people, and the new one now make possible a low-grade civil war. Such policies don’t promote a shared sentimental spirit
     
    You're mixing up attitudes in Russian Empire towards Malorussians, atrocities communists committed and attitudes in nowadays Russia.
    Russian Empire saw Malorussians as integral part of Big Russian nation, they were among nobles, fought side-by-side and nothing indicated malicious intent like genocide, Holodomor etc. As for serfdom: Russians weren't spared from serfdom, although it was less severe in many parts due to geography. Had independent Ukraine existed back then, Ukrainians still would have been serves for Cossack nobility.

    the Austrian government was promoting Russophile ideas in Galicia, in opposition to Polonophilia. Austrians switched to supporting Ukrainian nationalists later. Will you admit that the Russia idea is also an Austrian creation?
     
    You're correct. There was Rusophile movement, which sought reunification of Russain people, and pro-Ruthenian/Ukrainian movement. But they (Austrian government) were quick to support the second one, since growing Moscow power and existence of Rusophile movement was a mortal thread to Austrian rule over these lands. And the idea to inflict such ideas on Russian territory was a sweet deal.
    And many of those separatists, raised by Austria-Hungary, later infiltrated and infected Malorussia, like Grushevskiy. Yet, their support among people was so low that they feared to seek independence even when central Russian government was collapsing in front of them. Gee, even Donets-Krivoy Rog Republic had more support among people. UNR was a phantom republic that existed briefly and know pupils are taught about heroic of Battle of Kruty. But what the battle shows how weak and unpopular UNR was.

    My points:
    1. I don't argue that nowadays Ukrainians are part of Russian nation. They aren't.
    2. I do argue that 200 years ago Malorussians were rather sub-ethnic group of Russian nation and didn't realize themselves as a separate ethnic group. One can argue that Germans, Italians or Russians hadn't realized themselves as unique, formed nations only few hundred years ago.
    3. Malorussians could have assimilated into big Russian nation, separate into a closely related nation with Rus identity (like Switzerland or Austria or, as you say, like Sweden or Norway) or progressively diverge. The latter happened with a great assistance from communists (both in cementing separate Ukrainian identity and genociding millions of Ukrainians).

  28. Mr. Hack says:
    @AP

    Neither Malorussians, nor Ruthenians viewed themselves as Ukrainians until mid of 19th century.
     
    They did not collectively refer to themselves by that name until that time, certainly. This does not mean, of course, that they thought of themselves as Russians (Great Russians, in those times) though Rus patriotism was strong among the elites.

    Even Lviv, which is considered a heart of Ukrainian nationalist movement, had Ruthenian (Rus’ka in original) organizations like Supreme Ruthenian (Rus’ka) Council etc.
     
    Correct. One of the oldest streets in that city, by the market square, settled by Ukrainians/Ruthenians, is Rus'ka Street.

    ‘Ukrainian nation’ was a creation of Austrian government
     
    So which Austrian government official standardized the Ukrainian language, wrote Ukrainian literature, wrote Ukrainian history, etc.?

    The Austrian government played the same role in Ukrainian identity formation as the Russian one played in Latvian or Estonian identity formation. Seeking to limit the power of local elites (Polish/Polonized in Galicia, German in the Baltics) the central government allowed free reign to local activists to mobilize the poorer, more rural majorities in the territory. In Galicia this included allowing a bunch of Ukrainian nationalists exiled from the Russian Empire to settle in.

    So to be accurate, the "Ukrainian nation" was the creation of exiled Ukrainians from central and Eastern Ukraine, primarily of Cossack officer and petty noble descent.

    BTW, prior to the souring of relations between Russia and Austria-Hungary, the Austrian government was promoting Russophile ideas in Galicia, in opposition to Polonophilia. Austrians switched to supporting Ukrainian nationalists later. Will you admit that the Russia idea is also an Austrian creation?


    that was cemented by Communists. If it hadn’t been for Communists:
    - either Malorussians would have remained part of big Russian ethnicity
     
    A fairy tale.

    - In 1917 Ukrainian national parties easily won the vote in Ukrainian areas of Russia.

    - During the Russian Civil war there were zero significant forces or people of Ukrainian/Little Russian from Ukraine. There were various Ukrainian nationalist warlords, the anarchist Makhno, but not a single military force or leader who could be considered a Ukrainian or Little Russian fought for any sort of Russian idea. Some ethnic Ukrainians from outside Ukraine (such as Kuban) fought for the Whites, but none from Ukraine did.

    As someone else noted, Bolsheviks capitalized on already existing feelings, they didn't create Ukrainian identity.

    Russians have historically botched their relationship with Ukraine, probably due to their wishful thinking and ignorance about the place.


    or they would have formed into a separate nation that would have preserved Russian/Rus’kiy spirit, same way as independent Austria or Switzerland keep close bond with German identity.
     
    A more realistic analogy would have been Norway and Sweden, Scandinavian countries with generally friendly ties. But historically, the St, Petersburg government expanded serfdom in Ukraine and crushed local autonomy, the Moscow government starved to death millions of people, and the new one now make possible a low-grade civil war. Such policies don't promote a shared sentimental spirit.

    Seeking to limit the power of local elites (Polish/Polonized in Galicia, German in the Baltics) the central government allowed free reign to local activists to mobilize the poorer, more rural majorities in the territory. In Galicia this included allowing a bunch of Ukrainian nationalists exiled from the Russian Empire to settle in.

    Agree. The politically astute Hapsburg government was in effect playing the old game of ‘divide and conquer’ which was commonly a tactic used by imperial powers. This, however, was a far cry from the ridiculous notion that the ‘Ukrainian nation was a creation of the Austrian government’, something that unfortunately is repeated over and over by Russsophile fanatics. BTW, since you bring up the Ukrainiphiles from Eastern Ukraine migrating to Western Ukraine, have you had the opportunity yet to read the new book by Johanes Remy, ‘Brothers Or Enemies: The Ukrainian National Movement and Russia from the 1840s to the 1870s’? http://www.history.ac.uk/reviews/review/2090

    Read More
  29. Cyrano says:
    @Mr. Hack

    The “Ukrainians” should be hoarded into reservations either on their native land, or maybe transfer them to some other nice locale like Siberia and then allow them there to build few casinos in order to support themselves.
     
    And Ukrainophobes like you should be shunted off to the nearest funny farm for making ludicrous statements like the ones you exhibit here. A series of labotomy surges should do wonders for what's ailing you!

    You know my friend, the treatments that you suggest for me should actually be applied to the Ukrainian “nation” as a whole, for the morons that they are. What’s wrong with those people? How do you get manipulated into starting a war against fellow Slavs? And not just any Slavs, but the Russians?

    Without Russia, Ukraine would have ceased to exist long time ago. They would have fallen as a pray either to the Tatars, the Ottomans, Polaks, Germans and maybe even Rumanians. Ukraine is a disgrace for the whole Slavs. How can they even think that the Americans care for them? Americans don’t care about anybody but themselves, and even then they care only for parts of themselves not the whole of themselves.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    I see that you've missed your first scheduled lobotomy session? Come back after you've done so, you'll probably start making a little more sense at that time.
  30. Mr. Hack says:
    @Cyrano
    You know my friend, the treatments that you suggest for me should actually be applied to the Ukrainian “nation” as a whole, for the morons that they are. What’s wrong with those people? How do you get manipulated into starting a war against fellow Slavs? And not just any Slavs, but the Russians?

    Without Russia, Ukraine would have ceased to exist long time ago. They would have fallen as a pray either to the Tatars, the Ottomans, Polaks, Germans and maybe even Rumanians. Ukraine is a disgrace for the whole Slavs. How can they even think that the Americans care for them? Americans don’t care about anybody but themselves, and even then they care only for parts of themselves not the whole of themselves.

    I see that you’ve missed your first scheduled lobotomy session? Come back after you’ve done so, you’ll probably start making a little more sense at that time.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Cyrano
    You know we come from the same family tree (myself being a Slav), the only difference is the Ukrainian monkeys stayed swinging on that tree, while the rest of us Slavs evolved into something better.
  31. Cyrano says:
    @Mr. Hack
    I see that you've missed your first scheduled lobotomy session? Come back after you've done so, you'll probably start making a little more sense at that time.

    You know we come from the same family tree (myself being a Slav), the only difference is the Ukrainian monkeys stayed swinging on that tree, while the rest of us Slavs evolved into something better.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    'Better' you mean that you're sitting on the baboon branch? :-)
    , @AP
    Srano,

    You have already admitted being from the Balkans, which means (unless you are a Slovenian or a Croatian -and you are neither of these) that you are not a Slav at all, but a Slavicized Albanian (if a Serb) or Thracian/Turk (if a Bulgarian) pretending to be a Slav. So simply don't pretend you belong in the same family tree as Poles, Russians, Ukrainians, etc.

    In 2007 Rębała and colleagues studied several Slavic populations with the aim of localizing the Proto-Slavic homeland.[88] The significant findings of this study are that:

    1. Two genetically distant groups of Slavic populations were revealed: One encompassing all Western-Slavic, Eastern-Slavic, and few Southern-Slavic populations (north-western Croats and Slovenes), and one encompassing all remaining Southern Slavs. According to the authors most Slavic populations have similar Y chromosome pools — R1a. They speculate that this similarity can be traced to an origin in the middle Dnieper basin of Ukraine during the Late Glacial Maximum 15 kya.[89]

    2. However, Southern-Slavic populations including the Bosnians, Croats (excluding north-western Croatia), Serbs, Bulgarians and Macedonians are clearly separated from the tight DNA cluster of the rest of the Slavic populations. According to the authors this phenomenon is explained by "... contribution to the Y chromosomes of peoples who settled in the Balkan region before the Slavic expansion to the genetic heritage of Southern Slavs ..."

    https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs10038-007-0125-6
  32. Mr. Hack says:
    @Cyrano
    You know we come from the same family tree (myself being a Slav), the only difference is the Ukrainian monkeys stayed swinging on that tree, while the rest of us Slavs evolved into something better.

    ‘Better’ you mean that you’re sitting on the baboon branch? :-)

    Read More
    • Replies: @Cyrano
    Whatever I am, I can tell you that Americans didn’t make a baboon out of me, like they did out of you morons. Stick with them, you’re going to prosper.
    , @Cyrano
    Slavs are all one big family, Ukrainians come from the retarded part of the family. It’s the only Slavic country that can’t handle its own affairs, so they need a constant guardianship. First it was the Russians, than they placed their hope with the Germans, now they think that EU can run their country for them.

    You are too stupid to have your own country. I think that Russians would be better guardians for you, simply because they know your quirks better than anybody, having the misfortune to deal with you over the centuries.
  33. Cyrano says:
    @Mr. Hack
    'Better' you mean that you're sitting on the baboon branch? :-)

    Whatever I am, I can tell you that Americans didn’t make a baboon out of me, like they did out of you morons. Stick with them, you’re going to prosper.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    But I am an American, and live pretty well here. I only hope that more people around the world, including the Ukrainians, could live as well as I do. For all of the butt moaning one hears at this site, America is still the greatest country on the planet. Trump says that he'll make it even better...
  34. Talha says:

    Quite interesting – no country scored a 6 or above. I’m a bit surprised at that, I guess we all have our limits.

    Peace.

    Read More
  35. Cyrano says:
    @Mr. Hack
    'Better' you mean that you're sitting on the baboon branch? :-)

    Slavs are all one big family, Ukrainians come from the retarded part of the family. It’s the only Slavic country that can’t handle its own affairs, so they need a constant guardianship. First it was the Russians, than they placed their hope with the Germans, now they think that EU can run their country for them.

    You are too stupid to have your own country. I think that Russians would be better guardians for you, simply because they know your quirks better than anybody, having the misfortune to deal with you over the centuries.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    But even by your own assessments, the Ukrainians already tried throwing in their lot with the Russians - an that left a bad taste in their mouth. It looks like they'll have to learn to run their own show - if only the Russians would butt out and allow them to do so...
  36. @Mr. XYZ
    @Anatoly Karlin: It's interesting that the Hispanic figures are so low in spite of the fact that Latin American countries generally appear to be pretty supportive of free speech (as per the map in your blog post).

    Do you have any ideas why this might be the case, Anatoly?

    @Mr. Hack: There was already an independent Ukrainian state before the Bolsheviks created the Ukrainian SSR. Indeed, for all of Anatoly's talk about how Ukrainians should be grateful to the Bolsheviks for the creation of the Ukrainian SSR, it is worth noting that had Germany won World War I, there would have still been an independent Ukrainian state but without all of the horrors, brutality, and catastrophes of Communist rule (for all of their flaws, I certainly can't imagine Imperial Germany being worse than the USSR was in regards to its treatment of White people).

    Also, as we both know, Anatoly believes that universal literacy in Ukraine and Belarus would have turned Ukrainians and Belarusians into Russians during the 20th century in the absence of Bolshevism. However, the great irony is that the Russification measures which would have likely had the most success--such as a revival of the Ems Ukaz--involved violating free speech and free expression--something that Anatoly condemns (as evidenced by this blog post of his, among others).

    There was already an independent Ukrainian state before the Bolsheviks created the Ukrainian SSR.

    Yes, but it was considerably smaller than modern-day Ukraine, as it did not include Crimea or most of Novorossiya. In fact, until 1939, it did not even include Galicia/Volhynia, which was then ruled by Poland, and had formerly been part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire. All of that territory was added to the Ukrainian SSR by the Soviet government, essentially doubling the size of Ukraine. Whether all of the people in those territories actually consider themselves Ukrainian or not usually depends on what is meant by the word ‘Ukrainian’.

    … it is worth noting that had Germany won World War I, there would have still been an independent Ukrainian state but without all of the horrors, brutality, and catastrophes of Communist rule (for all of their flaws, I certainly can’t imagine Imperial Germany being worse than the USSR was in regards to its treatment of White people).

    It is arguably true that there would have been no famines, and it almost certainly true that there would have been no ‘dekulakization’ programs; however, as a German satellite state, Ukraine’s independence would have been, at best, merely notional:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Septemberprogramm

    Read More
    • Replies: @AP

    Yes, but it was considerably smaller than modern-day Ukraine, as it did not include Crimea or most of Novorossiya.
     
    Nope. But your ignorance is well-known.

    Its borders were actually almost exactly the same as the territory controlled by Kiev currently, minus Galicia (it included Volhynia).

    http://www.conflicts.rem33.com/images/Ukraine/1918_ukr.jpg

    All of that territory was added to the Ukrainian SSR by the Soviet government, essentially doubling the size of Ukraine.
     
    So geography is as hard as history for you. Check a map. Adding Galicia and Crimea did not "double" Ukraine's size.
    , @Anonymous
    Even if it had been smaller, as you say, that is a non-argument. Be careful, because Russia, too, originally was much, much smaller than now - for instance, historically Russia never had dominion over Kaliningrad. This is a historic anomaly. We could probably find other such anomalies, but the borders are internationally recognized and that's it.

    Ireland didn't even exist a measly 80 years ago. But now Ireland has internationally recognized borders and when we talk of Ireland, we never say "The former British colony, Ireland" or "Ireland, historically never independent until a measly 80 years ago, under British (English) rule for millennia, only recently independent", as if it has no right to exist as a separate entity, etc. It doesn't make sense to use that for Ukraine, either.
  37. Mr. Hack says:
    @Cyrano
    Slavs are all one big family, Ukrainians come from the retarded part of the family. It’s the only Slavic country that can’t handle its own affairs, so they need a constant guardianship. First it was the Russians, than they placed their hope with the Germans, now they think that EU can run their country for them.

    You are too stupid to have your own country. I think that Russians would be better guardians for you, simply because they know your quirks better than anybody, having the misfortune to deal with you over the centuries.

    But even by your own assessments, the Ukrainians already tried throwing in their lot with the Russians – an that left a bad taste in their mouth. It looks like they’ll have to learn to run their own show – if only the Russians would butt out and allow them to do so…

    Read More
  38. Mr. Hack says:
    @Cyrano
    Whatever I am, I can tell you that Americans didn’t make a baboon out of me, like they did out of you morons. Stick with them, you’re going to prosper.

    But I am an American, and live pretty well here. I only hope that more people around the world, including the Ukrainians, could live as well as I do. For all of the butt moaning one hears at this site, America is still the greatest country on the planet. Trump says that he’ll make it even better…

    Read More
    • Replies: @Cyrano
    I wish the rest of the world shared your enthusiasm about US. I believe that humans are homicidal monkeys. They’ll end up destroying themselves. US is leading the way.

    When George Bush declared war on terra, many thought that being a hillbilly he mispronounced the word terror. They didn’t understand that the learned scholar that he is, he was using the Latin word for earth – tera and that he is declaring a war on the whole planet earth.
    , @Cyrano
    And by the way, if you are really an American, of no Ukrainian ancestry or have any connection to that land – mind your own business.
  39. iffen says:

    It is arguably true that there would have been no famines

    Can we get knowledgeable commenters to weigh in here on the famines question?

    Read More
  40. Cyrano says:
    @Mr. Hack
    But I am an American, and live pretty well here. I only hope that more people around the world, including the Ukrainians, could live as well as I do. For all of the butt moaning one hears at this site, America is still the greatest country on the planet. Trump says that he'll make it even better...

    I wish the rest of the world shared your enthusiasm about US. I believe that humans are homicidal monkeys. They’ll end up destroying themselves. US is leading the way.

    When George Bush declared war on terra, many thought that being a hillbilly he mispronounced the word terror. They didn’t understand that the learned scholar that he is, he was using the Latin word for earth – tera and that he is declaring a war on the whole planet earth.

    Read More
  41. Cyrano says:
    @Mr. Hack
    But I am an American, and live pretty well here. I only hope that more people around the world, including the Ukrainians, could live as well as I do. For all of the butt moaning one hears at this site, America is still the greatest country on the planet. Trump says that he'll make it even better...

    And by the way, if you are really an American, of no Ukrainian ancestry or have any connection to that land – mind your own business.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    And you're of 'Ukrainian ancestry'? You sure seem to be putting your nose where it's not needed! (BTW, I am of Ukrainian ancestry, on both sides of my family).
    , @AP
    Non-Slavic Srano, perhaps you should ind your own business when Slavs are n conflict with each other?
  42. Mr. Hack says:
    @Cyrano
    And by the way, if you are really an American, of no Ukrainian ancestry or have any connection to that land – mind your own business.

    And you’re of ‘Ukrainian ancestry’? You sure seem to be putting your nose where it’s not needed! (BTW, I am of Ukrainian ancestry, on both sides of my family).

    Read More
    • Replies: @Cyrano
    If you were not the ignorant SOB that you are, you would know that the present day Ukraine is the ancient homeland of all the Slavs. Therefore, my ancestry is from there too. Only, my ancestors emigrated from there almost 2k years ago.
  43. Anon says: • Disclaimer
    @German_reader
    Seems like the US has a problem with importing authoritarian immigrants. The results for US blacks actually don't seem that bad (given US history their negative feelings about racists at least are understandable, so the 50% in favour of free speech is actually remarkable). The values for "Asians" though...lol. Looks like even high-skilled immigrants often bring highly undesirable baggage with them.

    American Blacks are not generic Americans like the American Whites, but they are the generic American minority. On the other hand, Asians are latecomers in America who did not shape this country. It is not surprising that a large percentage of them does not share American values.

    Read More
  44. Anon says: • Disclaimer
    @Mr. XYZ
    @Anatoly Karlin: It's interesting that the Hispanic figures are so low in spite of the fact that Latin American countries generally appear to be pretty supportive of free speech (as per the map in your blog post).

    Do you have any ideas why this might be the case, Anatoly?

    @Mr. Hack: There was already an independent Ukrainian state before the Bolsheviks created the Ukrainian SSR. Indeed, for all of Anatoly's talk about how Ukrainians should be grateful to the Bolsheviks for the creation of the Ukrainian SSR, it is worth noting that had Germany won World War I, there would have still been an independent Ukrainian state but without all of the horrors, brutality, and catastrophes of Communist rule (for all of their flaws, I certainly can't imagine Imperial Germany being worse than the USSR was in regards to its treatment of White people).

    Also, as we both know, Anatoly believes that universal literacy in Ukraine and Belarus would have turned Ukrainians and Belarusians into Russians during the 20th century in the absence of Bolshevism. However, the great irony is that the Russification measures which would have likely had the most success--such as a revival of the Ems Ukaz--involved violating free speech and free expression--something that Anatoly condemns (as evidenced by this blog post of his, among others).

    Indeed, for all of Anatoly’s talk about how Ukrainians should be grateful to the Bolsheviks for the creation of the Ukrainian SSR, it is worth noting that had Germany won World War I, there would have still been an independent Ukrainian state but without all of the horrors, brutality, and catastrophes of Communist rule (for all of their flaws, I certainly can’t imagine Imperial Germany being worse than the USSR was in regards to its treatment of White people).

    Why wouldn’t Imperial Germany care less about a bunch of Untermenschen than the Communists who regarded them as fellow citizens whose country deserved to be developed?
    For Imperial Germany, the Ukraine was just a conquered buffer, not an “independent” country.

    Read More
  45. Cyrano says:
    @Mr. Hack
    And you're of 'Ukrainian ancestry'? You sure seem to be putting your nose where it's not needed! (BTW, I am of Ukrainian ancestry, on both sides of my family).

    If you were not the ignorant SOB that you are, you would know that the present day Ukraine is the ancient homeland of all the Slavs. Therefore, my ancestry is from there too. Only, my ancestors emigrated from there almost 2k years ago.

    Read More
    • Replies: @AP

    If you were not the ignorant SOB that you are, you would know that the present day Ukraine is the ancient homeland of all the Slavs
     
    Correct. But these do not include Serbs, Bulgarians, or Macedonians.

    Rębała and colleagues studied several Slavic populations with the aim of localizing the Proto-Slavic homeland.[88] The significant findings of this study are that:

    1. Two genetically distant groups of Slavic populations were revealed: One encompassing all Western-Slavic, Eastern-Slavic, and few Southern-Slavic populations (north-western Croats and Slovenes), and one encompassing all remaining Southern Slavs. According to the authors most Slavic populations have similar Y chromosome pools — R1a. They speculate that this similarity can be traced to an origin in the middle Dnieper basin of Ukraine during the Late Glacial Maximum 15 kya.[89]

    2. However, Southern-Slavic populations including the Bosnians, Croats (excluding north-western Croatia), Serbs, Bulgarians and Macedonians are clearly separated from the tight DNA cluster of the rest of the Slavic populations. According to the authors this phenomenon is explained by “… contribution to the Y chromosomes of peoples who settled in the Balkan region before the Slavic expansion to the genetic heritage of Southern Slavs …”

    https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs10038-007-0125-6
  46. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer

    “the Enlightenment ideal of absolute free speech vanishes everywhere else in the world.”

    It’s vanishing already. Franklin allegedly told a woman who asked what kind of country they fashioned in Philadelphia “A republic my dear. If you can keep it.” Well, that “republic” is also vanishing.

    Read More
  47. When I was in Washington D.C. in 2013 there was some crazed Islamist ranting in front of the White House.

    I visited the White House this year and the same guy was there with the same cheap looking unreadable sign.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    At UCLA there was a homeless guy who used to stand around talking all sorts of nonsense and he wore a pair of sweats emblazoned with messages about how much he liked to masturbate. There was another East Asian dude who had placards about how the Dalai Lama takes baths in children's blood (not figuratively).

    People generally know if someone is unstable - cheap unreadable signs are a giveaway.

    Peace.
  48. @European-American
    Nice article. I'm sure this has been asked many times before, but: how do you produce the GSS graphs?

    It would be nice if you could "show your work" for these kinds of graphs so we could easily replicate them and play around with them. You do already helpfully give us the names of the variables, but...

    I did a quick try with the GSS data explorer https://gssdataexplorer.norc.org/ without much luck. Perhaps the Berkeley SDA site would be better, but it is also a bit daunting http://sda.berkeley.edu/ Is there an easy way?...

    Maybe Luke Muehlhauser's "GSS Tutorial #1: Basic trends over time" is a good starting point for learning how to do this kind of analysis? http://lukemuehlhauser.com/gss-tutorial-1-basic-trends-over-time/

    I’m a noob at GSS, I only got into it several months ago (and not in any serious or systemic way).

    I use this tool: http://sda.berkeley.edu/cgi-bin/hsda?harcsda+gss14

    Percentaging by row gives the relevant data in this case. I then just manually extract the data and build the graphs myself.

    Audacious Epigone is the real master at this, and much more qualified to write a guide than myself, so I sent him a request.

    Read More
    • Replies: @European-American
    Thanks Anatoly! Using the tool you mention, but with gss16 instead of gss14 as linked by Audacious Epigone, and by manually changing the form type from POST to GET, I get a linkable result, see below. I love links, even if they are ugly.

    I haven't figured out how to add the extra parameter JEW (an aggregate of Orthodox, Conservative, ... but excluding Other?) nor how to exclude displaying "NOT ALLOWED" and OTHER race results, but it's a start.

    http://sda.berkeley.edu/cgi-bin/hsda3?sdapath=%2Fvar%2Fwww%2Fsdaprogs%2Fsda&sdaprog=tables&study=%2Fvar%2Fwww%2Fhtml%2FD3%2FGSS16+%2Fvar%2Fwww%2Fhtml%2FNpubvars%2FGSS16&studytitle=GSS+1972-2016+Cumulative+Datafile&studylog=gss16&varcase=upper&logfile=%2Fvar%2Fwww%2Fsdalogs%2FSDAdemo&subtmpdir=%2Fvar%2Fwww%2Fhtml%2FTMPDIR&ch_url=http%3A%2F%2Fsda.berkeley.edu%2Fchartgen&chartstmpdir=%2Fvar%2Fwww%2Fhtml%2FTMPDIR&batchsavedir=%2Fvar%2Fwww%2Fsdalogs%2Fbatchsavedir&cluster=rsampcode&stratum=samplerc&row=SPKATH&column=RACE1&control=&filters=&weight=COMPWT&percents=column&cflevel=95&design=complex&weightedn=yes&color=yes&ch_type=bar&ch_orientation=vertical&ch_effects=use2D&ch_showpcts=yes&ch_color=yes&ch_width=600&ch_height=400&runtitle=Replicate+AKarlins+%22Allow+Anti-Religionist+to+Speak%22&decpcts=1&decse=1&decdeft=3&decwn=1&decstats=2

  49. Talha says:
    @Jeremy Cooper

    When I was in Washington D.C. in 2013 there was some crazed Islamist ranting in front of the White House.
     
    I visited the White House this year and the same guy was there with the same cheap looking unreadable sign.

    At UCLA there was a homeless guy who used to stand around talking all sorts of nonsense and he wore a pair of sweats emblazoned with messages about how much he liked to masturbate. There was another East Asian dude who had placards about how the Dalai Lama takes baths in children’s blood (not figuratively).

    People generally know if someone is unstable – cheap unreadable signs are a giveaway.

    Peace.

    Read More
  50. AP says:
    @Cyrano
    You know we come from the same family tree (myself being a Slav), the only difference is the Ukrainian monkeys stayed swinging on that tree, while the rest of us Slavs evolved into something better.

    Srano,

    You have already admitted being from the Balkans, which means (unless you are a Slovenian or a Croatian -and you are neither of these) that you are not a Slav at all, but a Slavicized Albanian (if a Serb) or Thracian/Turk (if a Bulgarian) pretending to be a Slav. So simply don’t pretend you belong in the same family tree as Poles, Russians, Ukrainians, etc.

    In 2007 Rębała and colleagues studied several Slavic populations with the aim of localizing the Proto-Slavic homeland.[88] The significant findings of this study are that:

    1. Two genetically distant groups of Slavic populations were revealed: One encompassing all Western-Slavic, Eastern-Slavic, and few Southern-Slavic populations (north-western Croats and Slovenes), and one encompassing all remaining Southern Slavs. According to the authors most Slavic populations have similar Y chromosome pools — R1a. They speculate that this similarity can be traced to an origin in the middle Dnieper basin of Ukraine during the Late Glacial Maximum 15 kya.[89]

    2. However, Southern-Slavic populations including the Bosnians, Croats (excluding north-western Croatia), Serbs, Bulgarians and Macedonians are clearly separated from the tight DNA cluster of the rest of the Slavic populations. According to the authors this phenomenon is explained by “… contribution to the Y chromosomes of peoples who settled in the Balkan region before the Slavic expansion to the genetic heritage of Southern Slavs …”

    https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs10038-007-0125-6

    Read More
    • Replies: @Cyrano
    Congrats, a**hole, you are the only true Slav. That’s why can’t wait to sell you’re a** to the highest bidder. You know, I don’t really care about that genetic mumbo-jumbo.

    It’s not so much how much Slav you are percentage wise, but how much Slav you feel like you are. And I am 10 000 times the Slav that you’ll ever be. Capish?

    If Stalin could feel like a Russian – and he had 0% Slavic blood, and yet I consider him to be perhaps one of the greatest Russians that ever lived – and that’s how he felt himself too by the way (he felt like he was a Russian), than I have more than the legitimate claim to consider myself a Slav.

    I don’t even know why I should justify myself to you what I am. As far as I am concerned, you (the Ukrainians) are people without dignity and that’s all there is to it. Stalin knew morons when he saw ones, that’s why you got the treatment that you got from him.

    , @Simpleguest
    I guess you have herd that the first Slavic alphabet, the Glagolitic script, was devised by Cyril and Methodius, and that it was based on the dialect of the Slavic tribes populating the areas surrounding Salonica in the then Byzantine empire. Those tribes are ancestors of the contemporary Macedonian and Bulgarian Slavic nations.

    Both of these contemporary nations, as well as the Serbian, Croats, Slovenian, or any other Slavic nation, including Ukrainian, were formed by assimilating a large proportion of other peoples, either native to the land where Slavic tribes were settling, or invading it later at some point in history.

    That should be a source of pride to you because the Slavic element always comes out dominant.
    Instead, you are spewing some drivel about genetics like you are some kind of a Germanic "ubermench", Or you would like to be one? Well, tough lack,

  51. AP says:
    @Cyrano
    And by the way, if you are really an American, of no Ukrainian ancestry or have any connection to that land – mind your own business.

    Non-Slavic Srano, perhaps you should ind your own business when Slavs are n conflict with each other?

    Read More
  52. AP says:
    @Cyrano
    If you were not the ignorant SOB that you are, you would know that the present day Ukraine is the ancient homeland of all the Slavs. Therefore, my ancestry is from there too. Only, my ancestors emigrated from there almost 2k years ago.

    If you were not the ignorant SOB that you are, you would know that the present day Ukraine is the ancient homeland of all the Slavs

    Correct. But these do not include Serbs, Bulgarians, or Macedonians.

    Rębała and colleagues studied several Slavic populations with the aim of localizing the Proto-Slavic homeland.[88] The significant findings of this study are that:

    1. Two genetically distant groups of Slavic populations were revealed: One encompassing all Western-Slavic, Eastern-Slavic, and few Southern-Slavic populations (north-western Croats and Slovenes), and one encompassing all remaining Southern Slavs. According to the authors most Slavic populations have similar Y chromosome pools — R1a. They speculate that this similarity can be traced to an origin in the middle Dnieper basin of Ukraine during the Late Glacial Maximum 15 kya.[89]

    2. However, Southern-Slavic populations including the Bosnians, Croats (excluding north-western Croatia), Serbs, Bulgarians and Macedonians are clearly separated from the tight DNA cluster of the rest of the Slavic populations. According to the authors this phenomenon is explained by “… contribution to the Y chromosomes of peoples who settled in the Balkan region before the Slavic expansion to the genetic heritage of Southern Slavs …”

    https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs10038-007-0125-6

    Read More
  53. Cyrano says:
    @AP
    Srano,

    You have already admitted being from the Balkans, which means (unless you are a Slovenian or a Croatian -and you are neither of these) that you are not a Slav at all, but a Slavicized Albanian (if a Serb) or Thracian/Turk (if a Bulgarian) pretending to be a Slav. So simply don't pretend you belong in the same family tree as Poles, Russians, Ukrainians, etc.

    In 2007 Rębała and colleagues studied several Slavic populations with the aim of localizing the Proto-Slavic homeland.[88] The significant findings of this study are that:

    1. Two genetically distant groups of Slavic populations were revealed: One encompassing all Western-Slavic, Eastern-Slavic, and few Southern-Slavic populations (north-western Croats and Slovenes), and one encompassing all remaining Southern Slavs. According to the authors most Slavic populations have similar Y chromosome pools — R1a. They speculate that this similarity can be traced to an origin in the middle Dnieper basin of Ukraine during the Late Glacial Maximum 15 kya.[89]

    2. However, Southern-Slavic populations including the Bosnians, Croats (excluding north-western Croatia), Serbs, Bulgarians and Macedonians are clearly separated from the tight DNA cluster of the rest of the Slavic populations. According to the authors this phenomenon is explained by "... contribution to the Y chromosomes of peoples who settled in the Balkan region before the Slavic expansion to the genetic heritage of Southern Slavs ..."

    https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs10038-007-0125-6

    Congrats, a**hole, you are the only true Slav. That’s why can’t wait to sell you’re a** to the highest bidder. You know, I don’t really care about that genetic mumbo-jumbo.

    It’s not so much how much Slav you are percentage wise, but how much Slav you feel like you are. And I am 10 000 times the Slav that you’ll ever be. Capish?

    If Stalin could feel like a Russian – and he had 0% Slavic blood, and yet I consider him to be perhaps one of the greatest Russians that ever lived – and that’s how he felt himself too by the way (he felt like he was a Russian), than I have more than the legitimate claim to consider myself a Slav.

    I don’t even know why I should justify myself to you what I am. As far as I am concerned, you (the Ukrainians) are people without dignity and that’s all there is to it. Stalin knew morons when he saw ones, that’s why you got the treatment that you got from him.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Mr. Hack

    Capish?
     
    Spoken like a true blue Slav! :-)

    It's too bad that neither you nor Stalin can do much to 'dignify' the name of the Slavs!

    How about trying on 'homo sovieticus' for size, you moron?

    , @AP

    Congrats, a**hole, you are the only true Slav.
     
    Srano, if you were a little smarter you would have understood that there are hundred of millions of "true Slavs" - Russians, Ukrainians, Poles, Belarussians, Czechs, Slovenes, northern Croats. I posted the information twice. Do you have to read something three or four times in order to understand it?

    There a hundreds of millions of Slavs, you just aren't one of them.

    It’s not so much how much Slav you are percentage wise, but how much Slav you feel like
     
    LOL. That's right, an Albanian or Turk or whatever you are is a real Slav because you feel like one.

    You are every bit as dignified as Rachel Dolezal:

    http://www.breitbart.com/big-journalism/2015/07/20/donezal-to-vanity-fair-no-matter-what-people-say-im-black/

    "Rachel Dolezal is not to be dissuaded by her parentage or lineage: she stands by her claim that she is, indeed, a black woman."

    Do you recognize yourself in her ridiculous pretense and earnest "patriotism" for a people she does not really belong to?
  54. Mr. Hack says:
    @Cyrano
    Congrats, a**hole, you are the only true Slav. That’s why can’t wait to sell you’re a** to the highest bidder. You know, I don’t really care about that genetic mumbo-jumbo.

    It’s not so much how much Slav you are percentage wise, but how much Slav you feel like you are. And I am 10 000 times the Slav that you’ll ever be. Capish?

    If Stalin could feel like a Russian – and he had 0% Slavic blood, and yet I consider him to be perhaps one of the greatest Russians that ever lived – and that’s how he felt himself too by the way (he felt like he was a Russian), than I have more than the legitimate claim to consider myself a Slav.

    I don’t even know why I should justify myself to you what I am. As far as I am concerned, you (the Ukrainians) are people without dignity and that’s all there is to it. Stalin knew morons when he saw ones, that’s why you got the treatment that you got from him.

    Capish?

    Spoken like a true blue Slav! :-)

    It’s too bad that neither you nor Stalin can do much to ‘dignify’ the name of the Slavs!

    How about trying on ‘homo sovieticus’ for size, you moron?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Cyrano
    Ukraine needs to undergo a demoronization program. Stalin attempted to do this, but due to poorly developed infrastructure, lots of the morons died.

    You want to hear my theory why of all the Slavs only the Ukrainians stayed back in the ancient Slav homeland? Well for starters, most of the Slavs were more adventurous, so the Russians went north-east, Polaks, Czechs and Slovaks went West, the South Slavs went to the Balkans and so on.

    The only reason why the Ukrainians stayed behind is because they were afraid they might get lost on the road. See, you were stupid even back then, not really a travel worthy material, so the rest of the Slavs just had to say goodbye to you, and leave you behind for the morons that you are.
  55. Pavlo says:
    @Mr. XYZ
    @Mr. Hack: Yeah, there definitely appears to be some tension between being vehemently in favor of free speech and being in favor of French-style nation-building (which was definitely coercive to an extent).

    Honestly, I can understand why Anatoly would be upset at the so-called missed opportunity in regards to Russifying Ukrainians and Belarusians (though, as I previously said, I think that the real "missed opportunity" for Russia was not acquiring eastern Galicia early enough). However, in the grand scheme of things, having separate Russian, Ukrainian, and Belarusian states is no more unusual than having separate Kazakh and Kyrgyz states, separate Bulgarian and Macedonian states, separate Romanian and Moldovan states, separate German, Austrian, and Swiss states, separate Norwegian, Swedish, and Danish states, separate Albanian and Kosovar states, separate Thai and Laotian states, et cetera. In other words, in the grand scheme of things, there is absolutely nothing unusual or unnatural about Russia, Ukraine, and Belarus being separate countries.

    @Cyrano: I think that the Bolsheviks simply capitalized on the existing nationalistic sentiments in Ukraine in order to advance their cause (basically, they wanted to turn Ukrainian and other nationalists into Bolsheviks). After all, AP previously mentioned how Ukrainians mostly voted for pro-Ukrainian parties in the 1917 Russian elections.

    Also, what Ukraine needs is a leadership which will successfully deal with its corruption problem. In short, what this means is turning Ukraine's roving bandits into stationary bandits--in the words of Anatoly Karlin.

    Every Ukrainian attempt at independence could fairly be described as blood-soaked slapstick comedy. Nobody but criminals and losers live in the Ukraine if they have any choice in the matter, so if you want to have a Ukrainian state, that is what you have to build it on.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    More Ukrainophobic rotgut. you guys are all morons! :-(
    , @AP
    You write as a wife writes of the husband who left her, so much bitterness and scorn towards that no-good man, poor rejected woman.

    Don't worry, you can move on. China will warmly embrace you.
  56. Mr. Hack says:
    @Pavlo
    Every Ukrainian attempt at independence could fairly be described as blood-soaked slapstick comedy. Nobody but criminals and losers live in the Ukraine if they have any choice in the matter, so if you want to have a Ukrainian state, that is what you have to build it on.

    More Ukrainophobic rotgut. you guys are all morons! :-(

    Read More
    • Replies: @Pavlo
    :) ukrainophobe isn't a word you piece of obsolete farm equipment.

    Homo sovieticus is superior in every way to whatever species you belong to.
  57. AP says:
    @Cyrano
    Congrats, a**hole, you are the only true Slav. That’s why can’t wait to sell you’re a** to the highest bidder. You know, I don’t really care about that genetic mumbo-jumbo.

    It’s not so much how much Slav you are percentage wise, but how much Slav you feel like you are. And I am 10 000 times the Slav that you’ll ever be. Capish?

    If Stalin could feel like a Russian – and he had 0% Slavic blood, and yet I consider him to be perhaps one of the greatest Russians that ever lived – and that’s how he felt himself too by the way (he felt like he was a Russian), than I have more than the legitimate claim to consider myself a Slav.

    I don’t even know why I should justify myself to you what I am. As far as I am concerned, you (the Ukrainians) are people without dignity and that’s all there is to it. Stalin knew morons when he saw ones, that’s why you got the treatment that you got from him.

    Congrats, a**hole, you are the only true Slav.

    Srano, if you were a little smarter you would have understood that there are hundred of millions of “true Slavs” – Russians, Ukrainians, Poles, Belarussians, Czechs, Slovenes, northern Croats. I posted the information twice. Do you have to read something three or four times in order to understand it?

    There a hundreds of millions of Slavs, you just aren’t one of them.

    It’s not so much how much Slav you are percentage wise, but how much Slav you feel like

    LOL. That’s right, an Albanian or Turk or whatever you are is a real Slav because you feel like one.

    You are every bit as dignified as Rachel Dolezal:

    http://www.breitbart.com/big-journalism/2015/07/20/donezal-to-vanity-fair-no-matter-what-people-say-im-black/

    “Rachel Dolezal is not to be dissuaded by her parentage or lineage: she stands by her claim that she is, indeed, a black woman.”

    Do you recognize yourself in her ridiculous pretense and earnest “patriotism” for a people she does not really belong to?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Cyrano
    How much like a Slav do you feel when you bend over for the Americans? I know that is your preferred national position – a submissive one, but is it the one that you recommend for all the true Slavs in order to enhance their prestige?

    For someone who takes so much pride in being a Slav, how come you always associate with people who look down on you? First the Nazis, and now the Americans? You think that Americans look on you as equal? They have nothing but contempt for you.

    My genetic theory about the Slavs is like this: Polaks are the purest Slavs genetically, then come Ukrainians, then the Russians, and then the rest. But that hardly matters. Russians are the greatest Slavs, that’s not even worth discussing. Polaks and Ukrainians are somewhere on the bottom of the list.

    Genetic purity is irrelevant. It’s like the pure iron – it’s soft and rusty. You need a more exotic alloy mix in order to make the strongest steel. You and the Polaks just lack that perfect mix in order to make you a good genetic material. As for the Srano – is that one of your earliest childhood memories? Is that how your momma used to smell to you when you were an infant? No wonder you turned out the way you did, raised up without proper hygiene.
  58. @Anatoly Karlin
    I'm a noob at GSS, I only got into it several months ago (and not in any serious or systemic way).

    I use this tool: http://sda.berkeley.edu/cgi-bin/hsda?harcsda+gss14

    Percentaging by row gives the relevant data in this case. I then just manually extract the data and build the graphs myself.

    Audacious Epigone is the real master at this, and much more qualified to write a guide than myself, so I sent him a request.
    Read More
    • Replies: @European-American
    Ah I just found that the (slightly newer?) interface here:

    http://sda.berkeley.edu/sdaweb/analysis/?dataset=gss16

    produces linkable results by default, and slightly less ugly links:

    http://sda.berkeley.edu/sdaweb/analysis/exec?formid=tbf&sdaprog=tables&dataset=gss16&sec508=false&row=SPKATH&column=RACE1&weightlist=COMPWT&columnpct=on&design=complex&cflevel=95&weightedn=on&color=on&notable=on&runtitle=Try+to+replicate+Antony+Karlin%27s+%22Allow+Racist+to+Speak%22+chart&ch_type=bar&ch_showpcts=on&ch_color=yes&ch_width=600&ch_height=400&ch_orientation=vertical&ch_effects=use2D&decpcts=1&decse=1&decdeft=3&decwn=1&decstats=2

  59. @European-American
    Thanks Anatoly! Using the tool you mention, but with gss16 instead of gss14 as linked by Audacious Epigone, and by manually changing the form type from POST to GET, I get a linkable result, see below. I love links, even if they are ugly.

    I haven't figured out how to add the extra parameter JEW (an aggregate of Orthodox, Conservative, ... but excluding Other?) nor how to exclude displaying "NOT ALLOWED" and OTHER race results, but it's a start.

    http://sda.berkeley.edu/cgi-bin/hsda3?sdapath=%2Fvar%2Fwww%2Fsdaprogs%2Fsda&sdaprog=tables&study=%2Fvar%2Fwww%2Fhtml%2FD3%2FGSS16+%2Fvar%2Fwww%2Fhtml%2FNpubvars%2FGSS16&studytitle=GSS+1972-2016+Cumulative+Datafile&studylog=gss16&varcase=upper&logfile=%2Fvar%2Fwww%2Fsdalogs%2FSDAdemo&subtmpdir=%2Fvar%2Fwww%2Fhtml%2FTMPDIR&ch_url=http%3A%2F%2Fsda.berkeley.edu%2Fchartgen&chartstmpdir=%2Fvar%2Fwww%2Fhtml%2FTMPDIR&batchsavedir=%2Fvar%2Fwww%2Fsdalogs%2Fbatchsavedir&cluster=rsampcode&stratum=samplerc&row=SPKATH&column=RACE1&control=&filters=&weight=COMPWT&percents=column&cflevel=95&design=complex&weightedn=yes&color=yes&ch_type=bar&ch_orientation=vertical&ch_effects=use2D&ch_showpcts=yes&ch_color=yes&ch_width=600&ch_height=400&runtitle=Replicate+AKarlins+%22Allow+Anti-Religionist+to+Speak%22&decpcts=1&decse=1&decdeft=3&decwn=1&decstats=2

    Read More
  60. Pavlo says:
    @Mr. Hack
    More Ukrainophobic rotgut. you guys are all morons! :-(

    :) ukrainophobe isn’t a word you piece of obsolete farm equipment.

    Homo sovieticus is superior in every way to whatever species you belong to.

    Read More
  61. Parbes says:
    @German_reader
    Seems like the US has a problem with importing authoritarian immigrants. The results for US blacks actually don't seem that bad (given US history their negative feelings about racists at least are understandable, so the 50% in favour of free speech is actually remarkable). The values for "Asians" though...lol. Looks like even high-skilled immigrants often bring highly undesirable baggage with them.

    The category of “Asians” in the graphs above is so broad as to be meaningless. Lumping all of the multifarious people from such a huge, ethnically, religiously and culturally diverse continent as Asia into one single category of “Asians”, just because for most Americans they all come from “that side of the globe”, is very misleading and even stupid. East Asians (Chinese, Japanese, Koreans, Filipinos etc.), non-Muslim South Asians (Hindus and the various Buddhist nations), and Muslim Asians (Middle Easterners, Muslim South and Southeast Asians) are all very different from one another in terms of culture, temperament and outlook. Judging from the answers for the category of “Asians” above, the sampling in the poll above seems to be numerically heavily weighted towards Muslims and South Asians.

    Read More
    • Replies: @German_reader
    Yes, that's why I put "Asians" in scare quotes, the way the term is used in the US seems indeed pretty stupid. You may be right in your suspicions what kind of "Asians" the survey refers to, I wondered about that as well since the unusually high tolerance of 40% for a "Muslim cleric preaching hatred against the US" seems difficult to explain otherwise.
  62. Parbes says:
    @Selvar
    Congratulations. This post put to rest any lingering doubts I might have had about the relative cost/benefit of East Asian immigration. Shut.It.Down.

    The category of “Asians” in the graphs above is so broad as to be meaningless. Lumping all of the multifarious people from such a huge, ethnically, religiously and culturally diverse continent as Asia into one single category of “Asians”, just because for most Americans they all come from “that side of the globe”, is very misleading and even stupid. East Asians (Chinese, Japanese, Koreans, Filipinos etc.), non-Muslim South Asians (Hindus and the various Buddhist nations), and Muslim Asians (Middle Easterners, Muslim South and Southeast Asians) are all very different from one another in terms of culture, temperament and outlook. Judging from the answers for the category of “Asians” above, the sampling in the poll above seems to be numerically heavily weighted towards Muslims and South Asians – NOT East Asians.

    Read More
  63. Parbes says:
    @Bucaramanga
    Really weird that Asian Americans are so anti-free speech, they seem to be quite forward. #whiterice

    The category of “Asians” in the graphs above is so broad as to be meaningless. Lumping all of the multifarious people from such a huge, ethnically, religiously and culturally diverse continent as Asia into one single category of “Asians”, just because for most Americans they all come from “that side of the globe”, is very misleading and even stupid. East Asians (Chinese, Japanese, Koreans, Filipinos etc.), non-Muslim South Asians (Hindus and the various Buddhist nations), and Muslim Asians (Middle Easterners, Muslim South and Southeast Asians) are all very different from one another in terms of culture, temperament and outlook. Judging from the answers for the category of “Asians” above (ESPECIALLY the answers regarding “tolerance for anti-religious speech”), the sampling in the poll above seems to be numerically heavily weighted towards Muslims and South Asians – NOT East Asians.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    Repeating the same argument three times in a row doesn't make it any stronger.
  64. @Parbes
    The category of “Asians” in the graphs above is so broad as to be meaningless. Lumping all of the multifarious people from such a huge, ethnically, religiously and culturally diverse continent as Asia into one single category of “Asians”, just because for most Americans they all come from “that side of the globe”, is very misleading and even stupid. East Asians (Chinese, Japanese, Koreans, Filipinos etc.), non-Muslim South Asians (Hindus and the various Buddhist nations), and Muslim Asians (Middle Easterners, Muslim South and Southeast Asians) are all very different from one another in terms of culture, temperament and outlook. Judging from the answers for the category of “Asians” above (ESPECIALLY the answers regarding "tolerance for anti-religious speech"), the sampling in the poll above seems to be numerically heavily weighted towards Muslims and South Asians – NOT East Asians.

    Repeating the same argument three times in a row doesn’t make it any stronger.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Parbes
    I repeated it three times not to "make it stronger", but to answer three different commenters who expressed the exact same incomprehension in their comments.

    The fact that you didn't notice this, doesn't gain you any points for intelligence.
  65. Parbes says:
    @Daniel Chieh
    Repeating the same argument three times in a row doesn't make it any stronger.

    I repeated it three times not to “make it stronger”, but to answer three different commenters who expressed the exact same incomprehension in their comments.

    The fact that you didn’t notice this, doesn’t gain you any points for intelligence.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    Noticed. And still doesn't make it any less insipid.
  66. Art Deco says:

    I guess we’re getting a taste of the tape Russian nationalists have running in their head to justify slapping around the Ukraine, &c., or, perhaps, the poses they elect to strike.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Parbes
    What are you babbling about, you third-rate neocon shill idiot?
  67. Parbes says:
    @Art Deco
    I guess we're getting a taste of the tape Russian nationalists have running in their head to justify slapping around the Ukraine, &c., or, perhaps, the poses they elect to strike.

    What are you babbling about, you third-rate neocon shill idiot?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Art Deco
    What are you babbling about, you third-rate neocon shill idiot?

    I see part of the tape running in your head is stringing together insult terms.
  68. Mr. XYZ says:

    : Honestly, I don’t particularly care about what Cyrano says; however, I am curious about something–by your criteria, wouldn’t, say, many Turks and Arabs be fake Turks and fake Arabs?

    Basically, I wonder if it is any less legitimate for a Slavicized Turk or Albanian to call himself a Slav than it is for an Arabized Egyptian or Berber to call himself an Arab or for a Turkicized Greek or Armenian to call himself a Turk.

    Also, as a side note, I am presuming that, based on your emphasis of this genetic information, you think it was a mistake for Russia to enter World War I on Serbia’s behalf, correct? After all, why should the Pan-Slavist Russia fight on behalf of fake Slavs?

    In addition to this, in regards to Rachel Dolezal, she is certainly *not* genetically black; however, she might be culturally black.

    : Is Belarus also composed of only criminals and losers?

    Read More
    • Replies: @AP

    : Honestly, I don’t particularly care about what Cyrano says; however, I am curious about something–by your criteria, wouldn’t, say, many Turks and Arabs be fake Turks and fake Arabs?

    Basically, I wonder if it is any less legitimate for a Slavicized Turk or Albanian to call himself a Slav than it is for an Arabized Egyptian or Berber to call himself an Arab or for a Turkicized Greek or Armenian to call himself a Turk
     

    I don't know enough about these peoples to provide an adequate response. Egyptians seem to be heavily Arab, however - at least the non-Copts. Turks are by definition largely Anatolian but genetic studies indicate something like up to 1/3 Central Asian descent (though this would depend on region) - making them more Turkic than Serbs are Slavic. At any rate, some clearly non-Asian, Greek-looking Turkish guy espousing pan-Turkic Nationalism and thinking of himself as akin to Kazakhs would be ridiculous.

    In addition to this, in regards to Rachel Dolezal, she is certainly *not* genetically black; however, she might be culturally black.
     
    I'm not into the idea of trans-.

    Balkan "Slavs" speak a Slavic language but have little else in uniquely in common with Slavs. 19th Russian reactionary philosopher Leontiev lived in the Balkans for a time and viewed them as weird exotics, like Greeks or Turks. Cyrano/Srano is as much of a Slav as an Afro-Cuban is a Spaniard or Roman.

  69. AP says:
    @Seamus Padraig

    There was already an independent Ukrainian state before the Bolsheviks created the Ukrainian SSR.
     
    Yes, but it was considerably smaller than modern-day Ukraine, as it did not include Crimea or most of Novorossiya. In fact, until 1939, it did not even include Galicia/Volhynia, which was then ruled by Poland, and had formerly been part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire. All of that territory was added to the Ukrainian SSR by the Soviet government, essentially doubling the size of Ukraine. Whether all of the people in those territories actually consider themselves Ukrainian or not usually depends on what is meant by the word 'Ukrainian'.

    ... it is worth noting that had Germany won World War I, there would have still been an independent Ukrainian state but without all of the horrors, brutality, and catastrophes of Communist rule (for all of their flaws, I certainly can’t imagine Imperial Germany being worse than the USSR was in regards to its treatment of White people).
     
    It is arguably true that there would have been no famines, and it almost certainly true that there would have been no 'dekulakization' programs; however, as a German satellite state, Ukraine's independence would have been, at best, merely notional:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Septemberprogramm

    Yes, but it was considerably smaller than modern-day Ukraine, as it did not include Crimea or most of Novorossiya.

    Nope. But your ignorance is well-known.

    Its borders were actually almost exactly the same as the territory controlled by Kiev currently, minus Galicia (it included Volhynia).

    All of that territory was added to the Ukrainian SSR by the Soviet government, essentially doubling the size of Ukraine.

    So geography is as hard as history for you. Check a map. Adding Galicia and Crimea did not “double” Ukraine’s size.

    Read More
  70. @Parbes
    I repeated it three times not to "make it stronger", but to answer three different commenters who expressed the exact same incomprehension in their comments.

    The fact that you didn't notice this, doesn't gain you any points for intelligence.

    Noticed. And still doesn’t make it any less insipid.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Parbes
    Here's an interesting and novel idea for you: Try to focus on the CONTENT and SUBSTANCE of things such as blog comments, instead of on secondary stylistic crap issues like whether something was repeated or not.

    By the way - your own comments on this website (not that I especially follow or care about them; just from what I've randomly noticed in passing) in general have a high level of insipidity and boringness even WITHOUT any repetition.
    , @European-American
    I of course completely agree with you that repeating the same comment three times is uh--- let's say not recommended?

    But the comment itself seemed pretty ok the first time I read it. So I'll dare to tiptoe back into this shockingly angry and un-unz-like thread to politely disagree with you on two extremely minor points:

    1. Not only does repeating the comment three times not make it stronger; more importantly it makes it look weaker and makes it easier to dismiss. It also wastes people's time.

    Though I sympathize with Parbes's wish to reply to several comments at once. A comment can have several replies; why can't a reply be to several comments? Perhaps with an '@name' mechanism? [Are you listening Ron Unz? (Actually for your sake I hope you have better things to do...)]

    2. I don't think "insipid" is the right word. I think you probably meant something like "still doesn't make [repeating the comment] any less dumb", but wisely preferred not to be rude.

    How about "still doesn't make [repeating the comment] any less regrettable"? Or even less judgmentally: "ineffective"?
  71. Parbes says:
    @Daniel Chieh
    Noticed. And still doesn't make it any less insipid.

    Here’s an interesting and novel idea for you: Try to focus on the CONTENT and SUBSTANCE of things such as blog comments, instead of on secondary stylistic crap issues like whether something was repeated or not.

    By the way – your own comments on this website (not that I especially follow or care about them; just from what I’ve randomly noticed in passing) in general have a high level of insipidity and boringness even WITHOUT any repetition.

    Read More
  72. @Daniel Chieh
    Noticed. And still doesn't make it any less insipid.

    I of course completely agree with you that repeating the same comment three times is uh— let’s say not recommended?

    But the comment itself seemed pretty ok the first time I read it. So I’ll dare to tiptoe back into this shockingly angry and un-unz-like thread to politely disagree with you on two extremely minor points:

    1. Not only does repeating the comment three times not make it stronger; more importantly it makes it look weaker and makes it easier to dismiss. It also wastes people’s time.

    Though I sympathize with Parbes’s wish to reply to several comments at once. A comment can have several replies; why can’t a reply be to several comments? Perhaps with an ‘@name’ mechanism? [Are you listening Ron Unz? (Actually for your sake I hope you have better things to do...)]

    2. I don’t think “insipid” is the right word. I think you probably meant something like “still doesn’t make [repeating the comment] any less dumb“, but wisely preferred not to be rude.

    How about “still doesn’t make [repeating the comment] any less regrettable“? Or even less judgmentally: “ineffective“?

    Read More
    • Agree: Daniel Chieh
    • Replies: @Parbes
    I see that you, too, in typical useless nebbish fashion, choose to focus your attention on the repetition of my comment, rather than on its substance and relevance to the article. If you have some negative criticism to make about the actual content of my comment (as seems to be implied by your oblique reference to "dumbness"), then why not enlighten us by explicating, o wise one?
  73. AP says:
    @Mr. XYZ
    @AP: Honestly, I don't particularly care about what Cyrano says; however, I am curious about something--by your criteria, wouldn't, say, many Turks and Arabs be fake Turks and fake Arabs?

    Basically, I wonder if it is any less legitimate for a Slavicized Turk or Albanian to call himself a Slav than it is for an Arabized Egyptian or Berber to call himself an Arab or for a Turkicized Greek or Armenian to call himself a Turk.

    Also, as a side note, I am presuming that, based on your emphasis of this genetic information, you think it was a mistake for Russia to enter World War I on Serbia's behalf, correct? After all, why should the Pan-Slavist Russia fight on behalf of fake Slavs?

    In addition to this, in regards to Rachel Dolezal, she is certainly *not* genetically black; however, she might be culturally black.

    @Pavlo: Is Belarus also composed of only criminals and losers?

    : Honestly, I don’t particularly care about what Cyrano says; however, I am curious about something–by your criteria, wouldn’t, say, many Turks and Arabs be fake Turks and fake Arabs?

    Basically, I wonder if it is any less legitimate for a Slavicized Turk or Albanian to call himself a Slav than it is for an Arabized Egyptian or Berber to call himself an Arab or for a Turkicized Greek or Armenian to call himself a Turk

    I don’t know enough about these peoples to provide an adequate response. Egyptians seem to be heavily Arab, however – at least the non-Copts. Turks are by definition largely Anatolian but genetic studies indicate something like up to 1/3 Central Asian descent (though this would depend on region) – making them more Turkic than Serbs are Slavic. At any rate, some clearly non-Asian, Greek-looking Turkish guy espousing pan-Turkic Nationalism and thinking of himself as akin to Kazakhs would be ridiculous.

    In addition to this, in regards to Rachel Dolezal, she is certainly *not* genetically black; however, she might be culturally black.

    I’m not into the idea of trans-.

    Balkan “Slavs” speak a Slavic language but have little else in uniquely in common with Slavs. 19th Russian reactionary philosopher Leontiev lived in the Balkans for a time and viewed them as weird exotics, like Greeks or Turks. Cyrano/Srano is as much of a Slav as an Afro-Cuban is a Spaniard or Roman.

    Read More
  74. AP says:
    @Pavlo
    Every Ukrainian attempt at independence could fairly be described as blood-soaked slapstick comedy. Nobody but criminals and losers live in the Ukraine if they have any choice in the matter, so if you want to have a Ukrainian state, that is what you have to build it on.

    You write as a wife writes of the husband who left her, so much bitterness and scorn towards that no-good man, poor rejected woman.

    Don’t worry, you can move on. China will warmly embrace you.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Pavlo
    :) Dear doctor, a little friendly advice - give up.

    You've spent years now wasting your evident talents in the service of a hopeless, forever failing cause. You are a shill for losers, and that makes you a loser - and you know this , which is why you threw a hissy fit at being reminded of it.

    Give up the sad Ukrainian LARPing and become a generic white American - there's still hope for them!
  75. Cyrano says:
    @AP

    Congrats, a**hole, you are the only true Slav.
     
    Srano, if you were a little smarter you would have understood that there are hundred of millions of "true Slavs" - Russians, Ukrainians, Poles, Belarussians, Czechs, Slovenes, northern Croats. I posted the information twice. Do you have to read something three or four times in order to understand it?

    There a hundreds of millions of Slavs, you just aren't one of them.

    It’s not so much how much Slav you are percentage wise, but how much Slav you feel like
     
    LOL. That's right, an Albanian or Turk or whatever you are is a real Slav because you feel like one.

    You are every bit as dignified as Rachel Dolezal:

    http://www.breitbart.com/big-journalism/2015/07/20/donezal-to-vanity-fair-no-matter-what-people-say-im-black/

    "Rachel Dolezal is not to be dissuaded by her parentage or lineage: she stands by her claim that she is, indeed, a black woman."

    Do you recognize yourself in her ridiculous pretense and earnest "patriotism" for a people she does not really belong to?

    How much like a Slav do you feel when you bend over for the Americans? I know that is your preferred national position – a submissive one, but is it the one that you recommend for all the true Slavs in order to enhance their prestige?

    For someone who takes so much pride in being a Slav, how come you always associate with people who look down on you? First the Nazis, and now the Americans? You think that Americans look on you as equal? They have nothing but contempt for you.

    My genetic theory about the Slavs is like this: Polaks are the purest Slavs genetically, then come Ukrainians, then the Russians, and then the rest. But that hardly matters. Russians are the greatest Slavs, that’s not even worth discussing. Polaks and Ukrainians are somewhere on the bottom of the list.

    Genetic purity is irrelevant. It’s like the pure iron – it’s soft and rusty. You need a more exotic alloy mix in order to make the strongest steel. You and the Polaks just lack that perfect mix in order to make you a good genetic material. As for the Srano – is that one of your earliest childhood memories? Is that how your momma used to smell to you when you were an infant? No wonder you turned out the way you did, raised up without proper hygiene.

    Read More
    • Replies: @DFH

    Russians are the greatest Slavs
     
    Maybe if being literally and figuratively raped by asiatic tyrants is your criterion for greatness
    , @AP

    you bend over...your preferred national position – a submissive one
     
    Your Balkan obsessions are funny, Srano...and very non-Slavic.

    What do you think of the Russian political thinker Leontiev's advice that the Balkan "Slavs" need to be kept under Ottoman rule?


    Genetic purity is irrelevant.
     
    Nobody is discussing purity. Indeed, none of the Slavs (or anybody else ) can be considered "pure." Poles are Slavs with some German mixture, Russian Slavs with some Finnic mixture, Belarussians are partially Baltic, Ukrainians and Croats are Slavs with some Balkan mixture.

    Non-Slavs such as your people aren't pure either. Your were ruled by the Ottoman Turks for most of your history.

    But just because purity doesn't exist, doesn't mean that one can ignore the obvious. A Frenchman, a Greek, a Bulgarian, are simply not Slavs, just as a Spanish-speaking Afro-Cuban is not a Spaniard.


    As for the Srano – is that one of your earliest childhood memories? Is that how your momma used to smell to you when you were an infant?
     
    Srano is sharing some of his non-Slavic cultural ideas now.
  76. @Parbes
    The category of "Asians" in the graphs above is so broad as to be meaningless. Lumping all of the multifarious people from such a huge, ethnically, religiously and culturally diverse continent as Asia into one single category of "Asians", just because for most Americans they all come from "that side of the globe", is very misleading and even stupid. East Asians (Chinese, Japanese, Koreans, Filipinos etc.), non-Muslim South Asians (Hindus and the various Buddhist nations), and Muslim Asians (Middle Easterners, Muslim South and Southeast Asians) are all very different from one another in terms of culture, temperament and outlook. Judging from the answers for the category of "Asians" above, the sampling in the poll above seems to be numerically heavily weighted towards Muslims and South Asians.

    Yes, that’s why I put “Asians” in scare quotes, the way the term is used in the US seems indeed pretty stupid. You may be right in your suspicions what kind of “Asians” the survey refers to, I wondered about that as well since the unusually high tolerance of 40% for a “Muslim cleric preaching hatred against the US” seems difficult to explain otherwise.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    I would be curious to see the results of a more specific breakdown. But as noted, Singapore does have pretty significant hate speech laws and I do believe that freedom of speech is very much a Western, indeed, Anglo tradition - one which I admire and I hope that many East Asians realize is an epistemic virtue.
  77. @German_reader
    Yes, that's why I put "Asians" in scare quotes, the way the term is used in the US seems indeed pretty stupid. You may be right in your suspicions what kind of "Asians" the survey refers to, I wondered about that as well since the unusually high tolerance of 40% for a "Muslim cleric preaching hatred against the US" seems difficult to explain otherwise.

    I would be curious to see the results of a more specific breakdown. But as noted, Singapore does have pretty significant hate speech laws and I do believe that freedom of speech is very much a Western, indeed, Anglo tradition – one which I admire and I hope that many East Asians realize is an epistemic virtue.

    Read More
    • Replies: @German_reader

    But as noted, Singapore does have pretty significant hate speech laws and I do believe that freedom of speech is very much a Western, indeed, Anglo tradition
     
    That's certainly true, I can attest that the concept has much shallower roots in Germany with its authoritarian traditions (free speech here comes up mostly in connection with terms like "limits of" or "abuse of").
    Yes, a detailed breakdown about different groups of "Asians" would indeed be nice, I'd suppose that at least on some questions there would be very significant differences between different groups (I can't see any reason why Chinese or Koreans would be especially tolerant towards the free speech of anti-US Muslim clerics).
  78. Parbes says:
    @European-American
    I of course completely agree with you that repeating the same comment three times is uh--- let's say not recommended?

    But the comment itself seemed pretty ok the first time I read it. So I'll dare to tiptoe back into this shockingly angry and un-unz-like thread to politely disagree with you on two extremely minor points:

    1. Not only does repeating the comment three times not make it stronger; more importantly it makes it look weaker and makes it easier to dismiss. It also wastes people's time.

    Though I sympathize with Parbes's wish to reply to several comments at once. A comment can have several replies; why can't a reply be to several comments? Perhaps with an '@name' mechanism? [Are you listening Ron Unz? (Actually for your sake I hope you have better things to do...)]

    2. I don't think "insipid" is the right word. I think you probably meant something like "still doesn't make [repeating the comment] any less dumb", but wisely preferred not to be rude.

    How about "still doesn't make [repeating the comment] any less regrettable"? Or even less judgmentally: "ineffective"?

    I see that you, too, in typical useless nebbish fashion, choose to focus your attention on the repetition of my comment, rather than on its substance and relevance to the article. If you have some negative criticism to make about the actual content of my comment (as seems to be implied by your oblique reference to “dumbness”), then why not enlighten us by explicating, o wise one?

    Read More
    • Replies: @European-American
    Sorry if my comment wasn't clear enough. I meant to say that the content seemed fine to me.

    It was just the form of your comment, the repetition, that was bothersome, though I understand why you did it, and it gave me the idea for a new feature request.

    I think everyone would agree with you that "Asian" is a nearly meaningless category, on the order of "Other", because it is much too wide and imprecise. (I don't think it generally includes Middle Easterners though, except in Sweden, apparently https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asian_people#Definitions_by_country ).
  79. @Daniel Chieh
    I would be curious to see the results of a more specific breakdown. But as noted, Singapore does have pretty significant hate speech laws and I do believe that freedom of speech is very much a Western, indeed, Anglo tradition - one which I admire and I hope that many East Asians realize is an epistemic virtue.

    But as noted, Singapore does have pretty significant hate speech laws and I do believe that freedom of speech is very much a Western, indeed, Anglo tradition

    That’s certainly true, I can attest that the concept has much shallower roots in Germany with its authoritarian traditions (free speech here comes up mostly in connection with terms like “limits of” or “abuse of”).
    Yes, a detailed breakdown about different groups of “Asians” would indeed be nice, I’d suppose that at least on some questions there would be very significant differences between different groups (I can’t see any reason why Chinese or Koreans would be especially tolerant towards the free speech of anti-US Muslim clerics).

    Read More
    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    One of the most tragic results of increasing polarization is how viewpoints are increasingly cast in terms of good or evil; it makes discourse extremely difficult. At least to me, the larger population seems to have dramatically lost a great deal of the background, basic knowledge that I once expected from people: for example, that most guys would have read Heinlein, Orwell, Shakesphere, or have at least a thought or two for Cartesian doubt. And I would have considered that to be basically pop culture! I would wish that more people know of Sophocles and Middleton.

    Instead, as real pop culture has rapidly short-circuited thought into emotional highs and lows, everything is cast in a manner which coordinates well with thought suppression. If you truly feel, for example, that a disagreeing idea is evil, then you have to keep the people safe from contaminating ideas.

    I can only hope that this phenomenon is limited, if only for the sake of my desire to be able to talk about Animal Farm with individuals.
  80. Cyrano says:
    @Mr. Hack

    Capish?
     
    Spoken like a true blue Slav! :-)

    It's too bad that neither you nor Stalin can do much to 'dignify' the name of the Slavs!

    How about trying on 'homo sovieticus' for size, you moron?

    Ukraine needs to undergo a demoronization program. Stalin attempted to do this, but due to poorly developed infrastructure, lots of the morons died.

    You want to hear my theory why of all the Slavs only the Ukrainians stayed back in the ancient Slav homeland? Well for starters, most of the Slavs were more adventurous, so the Russians went north-east, Polaks, Czechs and Slovaks went West, the South Slavs went to the Balkans and so on.

    The only reason why the Ukrainians stayed behind is because they were afraid they might get lost on the road. See, you were stupid even back then, not really a travel worthy material, so the rest of the Slavs just had to say goodbye to you, and leave you behind for the morons that you are.

    Read More
    • Replies: @AP

    South Slavs went to the Balkans and so on
     
    Croats did so.

    Your people, of course are not even Slavs.

    , @AP

    South Slavs went to the Balkans and so on
     
    Croats did so.

    Your people, of course are not even Slavs. Your people did not move anywhere.

    Genetic evidence tells us that Slavic-speaking people from the Balkans are descendants of the original populations.

    Srano, you confessed what you are like when you described people, like Balkan "Slavs", who didn't move from their ancestral homeland: "they were afraid they might get lost on the road. See, you were stupid even back then, not really a travel worthy material, "

    So, given what you have written about yourself, let's review Lynn's estimate of national IQ:

    https://iq-research.info/en/page/average-iq-by-country

    Poland 99
    Russia 97
    Belarus 97
    Ukraine 97
    Slovakia 96

    Bulgaria 93
    Serbia 89
  81. DFH says:
    @Cyrano
    How much like a Slav do you feel when you bend over for the Americans? I know that is your preferred national position – a submissive one, but is it the one that you recommend for all the true Slavs in order to enhance their prestige?

    For someone who takes so much pride in being a Slav, how come you always associate with people who look down on you? First the Nazis, and now the Americans? You think that Americans look on you as equal? They have nothing but contempt for you.

    My genetic theory about the Slavs is like this: Polaks are the purest Slavs genetically, then come Ukrainians, then the Russians, and then the rest. But that hardly matters. Russians are the greatest Slavs, that’s not even worth discussing. Polaks and Ukrainians are somewhere on the bottom of the list.

    Genetic purity is irrelevant. It’s like the pure iron – it’s soft and rusty. You need a more exotic alloy mix in order to make the strongest steel. You and the Polaks just lack that perfect mix in order to make you a good genetic material. As for the Srano – is that one of your earliest childhood memories? Is that how your momma used to smell to you when you were an infant? No wonder you turned out the way you did, raised up without proper hygiene.

    Russians are the greatest Slavs

    Maybe if being literally and figuratively raped by asiatic tyrants is your criterion for greatness

    Read More
    • Replies: @Cyrano
    Good thing that you managed to avoid all that and now you are a poster boy of racial purity and democracy.
  82. Anon says: • Disclaimer

    http://nypost.com/2017/08/25/man-gets-three-months-in-prison-for-liking-a-photo-on-facebook/

    “Like” at your own risk.

    A man in France was sentenced to 3 months behind bars this week — for liking a photo on Facebook, a report says.

    Read More
    • Replies: @European-American
    Suspended sentence, so not "behind bars". Insane and chilling nonetheless. We have built tools to enslave ourselves...

    «Quand on met J’aime, c’est que l’on considère que ce n’est pas choquant ou que l’on adhère», considère pour sa part Jean-Baptiste Bougerol, le substitut du procureur de la République. «Il avait un compte privé et activé les paramètres de confidentialité», rétorque son avocate.

    "If you Like something, it means you consider it's not shocking or that you approve", considered [the judge]. "But he had a private account and had activated privacy parameters", his lawyer replied.

    http://www.leparisien.fr/rozay-en-brie-77540/rozay-en-brie-condamne-pour-avoir-like-une-photo-de-daesh-22-08-2017-7206846.php

     

  83. AP says:
    @Cyrano
    Ukraine needs to undergo a demoronization program. Stalin attempted to do this, but due to poorly developed infrastructure, lots of the morons died.

    You want to hear my theory why of all the Slavs only the Ukrainians stayed back in the ancient Slav homeland? Well for starters, most of the Slavs were more adventurous, so the Russians went north-east, Polaks, Czechs and Slovaks went West, the South Slavs went to the Balkans and so on.

    The only reason why the Ukrainians stayed behind is because they were afraid they might get lost on the road. See, you were stupid even back then, not really a travel worthy material, so the rest of the Slavs just had to say goodbye to you, and leave you behind for the morons that you are.

    South Slavs went to the Balkans and so on

    Croats did so.

    Your people, of course are not even Slavs.

    Read More
  84. For the non Americans here: there has been widespread calls from the Left for civil war and/or the assassination of Trump in response to Trump’s pardoning of sheriff Joe. I know the non Americans here think that there will never be a civil war in the US but most Americans know that it is coming.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Art Deco
    most Americans know that it is coming.

    They don't know that and it likely isn't. The country is suffering from secular decay in its institutions and political culture. One possible reaction is a reversal of course (like the Thatcher era in Britain). Another is escalating stupidity and disorder (see the evolution of Argentina after 1929).
  85. AP says:
    @Cyrano
    How much like a Slav do you feel when you bend over for the Americans? I know that is your preferred national position – a submissive one, but is it the one that you recommend for all the true Slavs in order to enhance their prestige?

    For someone who takes so much pride in being a Slav, how come you always associate with people who look down on you? First the Nazis, and now the Americans? You think that Americans look on you as equal? They have nothing but contempt for you.

    My genetic theory about the Slavs is like this: Polaks are the purest Slavs genetically, then come Ukrainians, then the Russians, and then the rest. But that hardly matters. Russians are the greatest Slavs, that’s not even worth discussing. Polaks and Ukrainians are somewhere on the bottom of the list.

    Genetic purity is irrelevant. It’s like the pure iron – it’s soft and rusty. You need a more exotic alloy mix in order to make the strongest steel. You and the Polaks just lack that perfect mix in order to make you a good genetic material. As for the Srano – is that one of your earliest childhood memories? Is that how your momma used to smell to you when you were an infant? No wonder you turned out the way you did, raised up without proper hygiene.

    you bend over…your preferred national position – a submissive one

    Your Balkan obsessions are funny, Srano…and very non-Slavic.

    What do you think of the Russian political thinker Leontiev’s advice that the Balkan “Slavs” need to be kept under Ottoman rule?

    Genetic purity is irrelevant.

    Nobody is discussing purity. Indeed, none of the Slavs (or anybody else ) can be considered “pure.” Poles are Slavs with some German mixture, Russian Slavs with some Finnic mixture, Belarussians are partially Baltic, Ukrainians and Croats are Slavs with some Balkan mixture.

    Non-Slavs such as your people aren’t pure either. Your were ruled by the Ottoman Turks for most of your history.

    But just because purity doesn’t exist, doesn’t mean that one can ignore the obvious. A Frenchman, a Greek, a Bulgarian, are simply not Slavs, just as a Spanish-speaking Afro-Cuban is not a Spaniard.

    As for the Srano – is that one of your earliest childhood memories? Is that how your momma used to smell to you when you were an infant?

    Srano is sharing some of his non-Slavic cultural ideas now.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Cyrano

    Your Balkan obsessions are funny, Srano…and very non-Slavic.
     
    My Balkan obsessions are funny? Who have you ever stood up against? The Russians? Only because that they think of you as brothers (even though you are retarded brothers) and try to make decent human beings out of you. You are lousy material, not even the Russians can make anything out of you.
  86. Art Deco says:
    @Parbes
    What are you babbling about, you third-rate neocon shill idiot?

    What are you babbling about, you third-rate neocon shill idiot?

    I see part of the tape running in your head is stringing together insult terms.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Parbes
    Bottom-feeding neocon trolls like you deserve nothing but insults when they deliberately spam the comments section of articles like this one with irrelevant and moronic Russophobic slurs. Change that lunatic Anglo-Zionist neocon tape in your own damaged brain, first.
  87. Cyrano says:
    @DFH

    Russians are the greatest Slavs
     
    Maybe if being literally and figuratively raped by asiatic tyrants is your criterion for greatness

    Good thing that you managed to avoid all that and now you are a poster boy of racial purity and democracy.

    Read More
  88. Cyrano says:
    @AP

    you bend over...your preferred national position – a submissive one
     
    Your Balkan obsessions are funny, Srano...and very non-Slavic.

    What do you think of the Russian political thinker Leontiev's advice that the Balkan "Slavs" need to be kept under Ottoman rule?


    Genetic purity is irrelevant.
     
    Nobody is discussing purity. Indeed, none of the Slavs (or anybody else ) can be considered "pure." Poles are Slavs with some German mixture, Russian Slavs with some Finnic mixture, Belarussians are partially Baltic, Ukrainians and Croats are Slavs with some Balkan mixture.

    Non-Slavs such as your people aren't pure either. Your were ruled by the Ottoman Turks for most of your history.

    But just because purity doesn't exist, doesn't mean that one can ignore the obvious. A Frenchman, a Greek, a Bulgarian, are simply not Slavs, just as a Spanish-speaking Afro-Cuban is not a Spaniard.


    As for the Srano – is that one of your earliest childhood memories? Is that how your momma used to smell to you when you were an infant?
     
    Srano is sharing some of his non-Slavic cultural ideas now.

    Your Balkan obsessions are funny, Srano…and very non-Slavic.

    My Balkan obsessions are funny? Who have you ever stood up against? The Russians? Only because that they think of you as brothers (even though you are retarded brothers) and try to make decent human beings out of you. You are lousy material, not even the Russians can make anything out of you.

    Read More
  89. Art Deco says:
    @Greasy William
    For the non Americans here: there has been widespread calls from the Left for civil war and/or the assassination of Trump in response to Trump's pardoning of sheriff Joe. I know the non Americans here think that there will never be a civil war in the US but most Americans know that it is coming.

    most Americans know that it is coming.

    They don’t know that and it likely isn’t. The country is suffering from secular decay in its institutions and political culture. One possible reaction is a reversal of course (like the Thatcher era in Britain). Another is escalating stupidity and disorder (see the evolution of Argentina after 1929).

    Read More
    • Agree: Johann Ricke
    • Replies: @Johann Ricke

    Another is escalating stupidity and disorder (see the evolution of Argentina after 1929).
     
    Even as a worst case possibility, Argentina isn't all that bad. GDP per capita-wise, it's in the top third of countries in the world, somewhat behind the ex-Warsaw Pact countries, but well ahead of Russia, even after the commodities bubble burst.
  90. AP says:
    @Cyrano
    Ukraine needs to undergo a demoronization program. Stalin attempted to do this, but due to poorly developed infrastructure, lots of the morons died.

    You want to hear my theory why of all the Slavs only the Ukrainians stayed back in the ancient Slav homeland? Well for starters, most of the Slavs were more adventurous, so the Russians went north-east, Polaks, Czechs and Slovaks went West, the South Slavs went to the Balkans and so on.

    The only reason why the Ukrainians stayed behind is because they were afraid they might get lost on the road. See, you were stupid even back then, not really a travel worthy material, so the rest of the Slavs just had to say goodbye to you, and leave you behind for the morons that you are.

    South Slavs went to the Balkans and so on

    Croats did so.

    Your people, of course are not even Slavs. Your people did not move anywhere.

    Genetic evidence tells us that Slavic-speaking people from the Balkans are descendants of the original populations.

    Srano, you confessed what you are like when you described people, like Balkan “Slavs”, who didn’t move from their ancestral homeland: “they were afraid they might get lost on the road. See, you were stupid even back then, not really a travel worthy material, ”

    So, given what you have written about yourself, let’s review Lynn’s estimate of national IQ:

    https://iq-research.info/en/page/average-iq-by-country

    Poland 99
    Russia 97
    Belarus 97
    Ukraine 97
    Slovakia 96

    Bulgaria 93
    Serbia 89

    Read More
    • Replies: @Cyrano
    What are you trying to say, that you are smarter than me? That’s impossible. You are Ukrainian – the definition of stupidity. In my country when somebody does something stupid, we don’t say “Don’t be stupid”, we say don’t be Ukrainian – you see Ukrainian epitomizes stupidity, is what I am getting at.

    You can shove that genetic research where the sun doesn’t shine. Your historic record is what makes your national reputation abysmal. Not that you qualify as a nation, but I am being the usual generous self – I can’t help it.

    So go back to what you do best – beg EU, and then beg US little bit, and they’ll eventually get impressed with your subservience and they’ll let you send your whores to Europe to entertain them little bit in these bleak times. As for the men, you can go and clean toilets in the west and claim that you are western bursting with pride. That’s all you are good for.
  91. Parbes says:
    @Art Deco
    What are you babbling about, you third-rate neocon shill idiot?

    I see part of the tape running in your head is stringing together insult terms.

    Bottom-feeding neocon trolls like you deserve nothing but insults when they deliberately spam the comments section of articles like this one with irrelevant and moronic Russophobic slurs. Change that lunatic Anglo-Zionist neocon tape in your own damaged brain, first.

    Read More
  92. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @Seamus Padraig

    There was already an independent Ukrainian state before the Bolsheviks created the Ukrainian SSR.
     
    Yes, but it was considerably smaller than modern-day Ukraine, as it did not include Crimea or most of Novorossiya. In fact, until 1939, it did not even include Galicia/Volhynia, which was then ruled by Poland, and had formerly been part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire. All of that territory was added to the Ukrainian SSR by the Soviet government, essentially doubling the size of Ukraine. Whether all of the people in those territories actually consider themselves Ukrainian or not usually depends on what is meant by the word 'Ukrainian'.

    ... it is worth noting that had Germany won World War I, there would have still been an independent Ukrainian state but without all of the horrors, brutality, and catastrophes of Communist rule (for all of their flaws, I certainly can’t imagine Imperial Germany being worse than the USSR was in regards to its treatment of White people).
     
    It is arguably true that there would have been no famines, and it almost certainly true that there would have been no 'dekulakization' programs; however, as a German satellite state, Ukraine's independence would have been, at best, merely notional:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Septemberprogramm

    Even if it had been smaller, as you say, that is a non-argument. Be careful, because Russia, too, originally was much, much smaller than now – for instance, historically Russia never had dominion over Kaliningrad. This is a historic anomaly. We could probably find other such anomalies, but the borders are internationally recognized and that’s it.

    Ireland didn’t even exist a measly 80 years ago. But now Ireland has internationally recognized borders and when we talk of Ireland, we never say “The former British colony, Ireland” or “Ireland, historically never independent until a measly 80 years ago, under British (English) rule for millennia, only recently independent”, as if it has no right to exist as a separate entity, etc. It doesn’t make sense to use that for Ukraine, either.

    Read More
  93. DFH says:
    @Cyrano
    Good thing that you managed to avoid all that and now you are a poster boy of racial purity and democracy.

    Poles are obviously the greatest slavs

    Read More
    • Replies: @Pavlo
    Lyakhs are suitable for scalping and bitch labour.

    Твої люди кровоточать, як свині, і плачуть, як жінки
  94. Cyrano says:
    @AP

    South Slavs went to the Balkans and so on
     
    Croats did so.

    Your people, of course are not even Slavs. Your people did not move anywhere.

    Genetic evidence tells us that Slavic-speaking people from the Balkans are descendants of the original populations.

    Srano, you confessed what you are like when you described people, like Balkan "Slavs", who didn't move from their ancestral homeland: "they were afraid they might get lost on the road. See, you were stupid even back then, not really a travel worthy material, "

    So, given what you have written about yourself, let's review Lynn's estimate of national IQ:

    https://iq-research.info/en/page/average-iq-by-country

    Poland 99
    Russia 97
    Belarus 97
    Ukraine 97
    Slovakia 96

    Bulgaria 93
    Serbia 89

    What are you trying to say, that you are smarter than me? That’s impossible. You are Ukrainian – the definition of stupidity. In my country when somebody does something stupid, we don’t say “Don’t be stupid”, we say don’t be Ukrainian – you see Ukrainian epitomizes stupidity, is what I am getting at.

    You can shove that genetic research where the sun doesn’t shine. Your historic record is what makes your national reputation abysmal. Not that you qualify as a nation, but I am being the usual generous self – I can’t help it.

    So go back to what you do best – beg EU, and then beg US little bit, and they’ll eventually get impressed with your subservience and they’ll let you send your whores to Europe to entertain them little bit in these bleak times. As for the men, you can go and clean toilets in the west and claim that you are western bursting with pride. That’s all you are good for.

    Read More
    • Replies: @AP

    What are you trying to say, that you are smarter than me?
     
    Srano, this is a very low bar. You couldn't even figure out my nationality in our last discussion. You can't figure out genetics in this one.

    You need things to be repeated multiple times so again:

    Lynn’s estimate of national IQ:

    https://iq-research.info/en/page/average-iq-by-country

    Poland 99
    Russia 97
    Belarus 97
    Ukraine 97
    Slovakia 96

    Bulgaria 93
    Serbia 89

    send your whores
     
    There's your non-Slavic culture expressing itself yet again. You can't help yourself :-)
  95. @Art Deco
    most Americans know that it is coming.

    They don't know that and it likely isn't. The country is suffering from secular decay in its institutions and political culture. One possible reaction is a reversal of course (like the Thatcher era in Britain). Another is escalating stupidity and disorder (see the evolution of Argentina after 1929).

    Another is escalating stupidity and disorder (see the evolution of Argentina after 1929).

    Even as a worst case possibility, Argentina isn’t all that bad. GDP per capita-wise, it’s in the top third of countries in the world, somewhat behind the ex-Warsaw Pact countries, but well ahead of Russia, even after the commodities bubble burst.

    Read More
    • LOL: JL
    • Replies: @AP
    Sure, but it started the 20th century in the same league as France. It isn't third world, but it is like a poorer eastern European country. That's an impressive "achievement" given that it didn't suffer under Communism.

    In terms of nominal per capita GDP Argentina is indeed wealthier than most Eastern European countries (it's about the same as Poland and Hungary, well ahead of Russia). However, in terms of GDP PPP, Argentina is much poorer than Russia, Poland, Latvia, Hungary, etc. and about as wealthy as Bulgaria.
  96. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer

    Mr Hack & AP,

    It looks like Srano is deeply traumatized, it is actually pretty sad, but it is understandable.

    We, friends of Ukraine, have heard of many instances where his people, too, have suffered, and we could laugh and jeer about their suffering, but we will simply not stoop to that level. Let the Gods judge him for what he said above. In fact, he’s already been punished by being in the miserable state he’s in.

    Read More
  97. AP says:
    @Cyrano
    What are you trying to say, that you are smarter than me? That’s impossible. You are Ukrainian – the definition of stupidity. In my country when somebody does something stupid, we don’t say “Don’t be stupid”, we say don’t be Ukrainian – you see Ukrainian epitomizes stupidity, is what I am getting at.

    You can shove that genetic research where the sun doesn’t shine. Your historic record is what makes your national reputation abysmal. Not that you qualify as a nation, but I am being the usual generous self – I can’t help it.

    So go back to what you do best – beg EU, and then beg US little bit, and they’ll eventually get impressed with your subservience and they’ll let you send your whores to Europe to entertain them little bit in these bleak times. As for the men, you can go and clean toilets in the west and claim that you are western bursting with pride. That’s all you are good for.

    What are you trying to say, that you are smarter than me?

    Srano, this is a very low bar. You couldn’t even figure out my nationality in our last discussion. You can’t figure out genetics in this one.

    You need things to be repeated multiple times so again:

    Lynn’s estimate of national IQ:

    https://iq-research.info/en/page/average-iq-by-country

    Poland 99
    Russia 97
    Belarus 97
    Ukraine 97
    Slovakia 96

    Bulgaria 93
    Serbia 89

    send your whores

    There’s your non-Slavic culture expressing itself yet again. You can’t help yourself :-)

    Read More
  98. Mr. XYZ says:

    : Thank you for your response here.

    Also, out of curiosity–do you know what percentage of the ancestry of Serbs, Bulgarians, and Macedonians is Slavic? Is it something like 5%? Even less than that?

    In addition to this, how much elements of Slavic culture did Serbs, Bulgarians, and Macedonians adopt? Do you know? Basically, it looks like Macedonian and Russian folk costumes are somewhat similar–which is why I am curious about this:

    https://www.google.com/search?q=russian+folk+dress&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjXhsWc7PXVAhUV42MKHXRbBBMQ_AUICygC&biw=1920&bih=950#imgrc=kOYajirIWHz53M:

    In regards to culture, though, I stand by my statement that one can adopt another ethnic group’s culture without actually being a member of an ethnic group. For instance, one can be a Moroccan Jew and consider oneself ethnically French.

    As for your national IQ data, I would like to point out that it is possible that Bulgarian and especially Serbian IQs might be a bit depressed; after all, Greeks have an IQ of around 95 and I am unsure as to how different Serbs and Bulgarians are from Greeks. Also, some of Richard Lynn’s IQ data appears to be outdated; for instance, he gives an IQ of 82 for Kazakhs whereas the most recent PISA data from Kazakhstan gives an IQ of around 10 points higher (the approximately 100 IQ Slavs should only add a couple of points to Kazakhstan’s total IQ).

    Finally, out of curiosity–since you mentioned the “trans-” concept in general, I can’t help but ask–what exactly do you think about transgender people? Indeed, I am especially curious about this considering that, if I remember correctly, you previously (several years ago) expressed support for same-sex marriage in one of your comments on Anatoly Karlin’s blog.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Cyrano
    Balkan Slavs are about 12-16% Slavs. And we are all geniuses. Don't listen to AP. He is stupid.
    , @Cyrano

    In addition to this, how much elements of Slavic culture did Serbs, Bulgarians, and Macedonians adopt? Do you know? Basically, it looks like Macedonian and Russian folk costumes are somewhat similar–which is why I am curious about this:
     
    The hell you are talking about? We didn't "adopt" diddly. We gave those morons the alphabet - Cyril and Methodius were Macedonians. As far as I am concerned, they adopted our culture, ignorant stupid f**ks that they are.
    , @AP

    : Thank you for your response here.

    Also, out of curiosity–do you know what percentage of the ancestry of Serbs, Bulgarians, and Macedonians is Slavic? Is it something like 5%? Even less than that?
     
    I'd guess around 10%.

    R1A is a Slavic marker; it isn't limited to Slavs (it also exists in central Asia), but around 50% of Slavic populations have this marker. Here's a map:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_studies_on_Serbs#/media/File:Distribution_Haplogroup_R1a_Y-DNA.svg

    Balkan "Slavs" have less of this marker than do Hungarians, but more than do, say, the French. They are like eastern Germans or Bavarians. Turks also have this, getting it from Central Asia, so some of the Serbian % may be due to mixing with Turks, who ruled Serbia for centuries.

    In regards to culture, though, I stand by my statement that one can adopt another ethnic group’s culture without actually being a member of an ethnic group
     
    If you mean "Slavic" in the sense that Africans, Algerians, Haitians, Quebecois and Frenchmen are part of some sort of French-speaking "world" than sure. But that's not now Slavophiles see it. For them it's about brotherhood, the idiot Cyrano was talking about being the product of Slavic migrations to the Balkans, etc. From this perspective he is as much of a Slav as a Haitian is a Frenchman.

    As for your national IQ data, I would like to point out that it is possible that Bulgarian and especially Serbian IQs might be a bit depressed; after all, Greeks have an IQ of around 95 and I am unsure as to how different Serbs and Bulgarians are from Greeks.
     
    Serbs and Bulgarians are largely descended from Albanian and Thracian types, the original peoples of the Balkans, not from Greeks.

    he gives an IQ of 82 for Kazakhs whereas the most recent PISA data from Kazakhstan gives an IQ of around 10 points higher (the approximately 100 IQ Slavs should only add a couple of points to Kazakhstan’s total IQ)
     
    Correct. There has been some catch-up. However, as Sailer showed on his chart, PISA results for Balkan Slavs are lower than for Hispanic-Americans and only a little higher than among African-Americans:

    https://isteve.blogspot.com/2013/12/overall-pisa-rankings-include-america.html

    Serbs and Bulgarians are about the same (actually slightly lower) than Turks. Montenegrins are lower than African-Americans.

    Finally, out of curiosity–since you mentioned the “trans-” concept in general, I can’t help but ask–what exactly do you think about transgender people?
     
    They have difficult lives and I oppose discriminating against them or harming them in any way. On the other hand, a man doesn't become a real woman simply because he cuts something off, and an Albanian doesn't become a real Slav if he speaks a Slavic language.
  99. AP says:
    @Johann Ricke

    Another is escalating stupidity and disorder (see the evolution of Argentina after 1929).
     
    Even as a worst case possibility, Argentina isn't all that bad. GDP per capita-wise, it's in the top third of countries in the world, somewhat behind the ex-Warsaw Pact countries, but well ahead of Russia, even after the commodities bubble burst.

    Sure, but it started the 20th century in the same league as France. It isn’t third world, but it is like a poorer eastern European country. That’s an impressive “achievement” given that it didn’t suffer under Communism.

    In terms of nominal per capita GDP Argentina is indeed wealthier than most Eastern European countries (it’s about the same as Poland and Hungary, well ahead of Russia). However, in terms of GDP PPP, Argentina is much poorer than Russia, Poland, Latvia, Hungary, etc. and about as wealthy as Bulgaria.

    Read More
  100. @AP
    Srano,

    You have already admitted being from the Balkans, which means (unless you are a Slovenian or a Croatian -and you are neither of these) that you are not a Slav at all, but a Slavicized Albanian (if a Serb) or Thracian/Turk (if a Bulgarian) pretending to be a Slav. So simply don't pretend you belong in the same family tree as Poles, Russians, Ukrainians, etc.

    In 2007 Rębała and colleagues studied several Slavic populations with the aim of localizing the Proto-Slavic homeland.[88] The significant findings of this study are that:

    1. Two genetically distant groups of Slavic populations were revealed: One encompassing all Western-Slavic, Eastern-Slavic, and few Southern-Slavic populations (north-western Croats and Slovenes), and one encompassing all remaining Southern Slavs. According to the authors most Slavic populations have similar Y chromosome pools — R1a. They speculate that this similarity can be traced to an origin in the middle Dnieper basin of Ukraine during the Late Glacial Maximum 15 kya.[89]

    2. However, Southern-Slavic populations including the Bosnians, Croats (excluding north-western Croatia), Serbs, Bulgarians and Macedonians are clearly separated from the tight DNA cluster of the rest of the Slavic populations. According to the authors this phenomenon is explained by "... contribution to the Y chromosomes of peoples who settled in the Balkan region before the Slavic expansion to the genetic heritage of Southern Slavs ..."

    https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs10038-007-0125-6

    I guess you have herd that the first Slavic alphabet, the Glagolitic script, was devised by Cyril and Methodius, and that it was based on the dialect of the Slavic tribes populating the areas surrounding Salonica in the then Byzantine empire. Those tribes are ancestors of the contemporary Macedonian and Bulgarian Slavic nations.

    Both of these contemporary nations, as well as the Serbian, Croats, Slovenian, or any other Slavic nation, including Ukrainian, were formed by assimilating a large proportion of other peoples, either native to the land where Slavic tribes were settling, or invading it later at some point in history.

    That should be a source of pride to you because the Slavic element always comes out dominant.
    Instead, you are spewing some drivel about genetics like you are some kind of a Germanic “ubermench”, Or you would like to be one? Well, tough lack,

    Read More
    • Agree: Cyrano
    • Replies: @AP

    Instead, you are spewing some drivel about genetics like you are some kind of a Germanic “ubermench”
     
    I wasn't making any Nazi-like claims about some sort of "master race", just pointing out that a people with very little actual Slavic ancestry (as shown by genetic research) aren't, actually, Slavs.
  101. Cyrano says:
    @Mr. XYZ
    @AP: Thank you for your response here.

    Also, out of curiosity--do you know what percentage of the ancestry of Serbs, Bulgarians, and Macedonians is Slavic? Is it something like 5%? Even less than that?

    In addition to this, how much elements of Slavic culture did Serbs, Bulgarians, and Macedonians adopt? Do you know? Basically, it looks like Macedonian and Russian folk costumes are somewhat similar--which is why I am curious about this:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonians_(ethnic_group)#/media/File:Makedonski_Nosii_2.jpg

    https://www.google.com/search?q=russian+folk+dress&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjXhsWc7PXVAhUV42MKHXRbBBMQ_AUICygC&biw=1920&bih=950#imgrc=kOYajirIWHz53M:

    In regards to culture, though, I stand by my statement that one can adopt another ethnic group's culture without actually being a member of an ethnic group. For instance, one can be a Moroccan Jew and consider oneself ethnically French.

    As for your national IQ data, I would like to point out that it is possible that Bulgarian and especially Serbian IQs might be a bit depressed; after all, Greeks have an IQ of around 95 and I am unsure as to how different Serbs and Bulgarians are from Greeks. Also, some of Richard Lynn's IQ data appears to be outdated; for instance, he gives an IQ of 82 for Kazakhs whereas the most recent PISA data from Kazakhstan gives an IQ of around 10 points higher (the approximately 100 IQ Slavs should only add a couple of points to Kazakhstan's total IQ).

    Finally, out of curiosity--since you mentioned the "trans-" concept in general, I can't help but ask--what exactly do you think about transgender people? Indeed, I am especially curious about this considering that, if I remember correctly, you previously (several years ago) expressed support for same-sex marriage in one of your comments on Anatoly Karlin's blog.

    Balkan Slavs are about 12-16% Slavs. And we are all geniuses. Don’t listen to AP. He is stupid.

    Read More
    • Replies: @AP

    Balkan Slavs are about 12-16% Slavs.
     
    So by your numbers African Americans are more white (average European ancestry 18%) , than Balkan "Slavs" are Slavs.
  102. Cyrano says:
    @Mr. XYZ
    @AP: Thank you for your response here.

    Also, out of curiosity--do you know what percentage of the ancestry of Serbs, Bulgarians, and Macedonians is Slavic? Is it something like 5%? Even less than that?

    In addition to this, how much elements of Slavic culture did Serbs, Bulgarians, and Macedonians adopt? Do you know? Basically, it looks like Macedonian and Russian folk costumes are somewhat similar--which is why I am curious about this:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonians_(ethnic_group)#/media/File:Makedonski_Nosii_2.jpg

    https://www.google.com/search?q=russian+folk+dress&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjXhsWc7PXVAhUV42MKHXRbBBMQ_AUICygC&biw=1920&bih=950#imgrc=kOYajirIWHz53M:

    In regards to culture, though, I stand by my statement that one can adopt another ethnic group's culture without actually being a member of an ethnic group. For instance, one can be a Moroccan Jew and consider oneself ethnically French.

    As for your national IQ data, I would like to point out that it is possible that Bulgarian and especially Serbian IQs might be a bit depressed; after all, Greeks have an IQ of around 95 and I am unsure as to how different Serbs and Bulgarians are from Greeks. Also, some of Richard Lynn's IQ data appears to be outdated; for instance, he gives an IQ of 82 for Kazakhs whereas the most recent PISA data from Kazakhstan gives an IQ of around 10 points higher (the approximately 100 IQ Slavs should only add a couple of points to Kazakhstan's total IQ).

    Finally, out of curiosity--since you mentioned the "trans-" concept in general, I can't help but ask--what exactly do you think about transgender people? Indeed, I am especially curious about this considering that, if I remember correctly, you previously (several years ago) expressed support for same-sex marriage in one of your comments on Anatoly Karlin's blog.

    In addition to this, how much elements of Slavic culture did Serbs, Bulgarians, and Macedonians adopt? Do you know? Basically, it looks like Macedonian and Russian folk costumes are somewhat similar–which is why I am curious about this:

    The hell you are talking about? We didn’t “adopt” diddly. We gave those morons the alphabet – Cyril and Methodius were Macedonians. As far as I am concerned, they adopted our culture, ignorant stupid f**ks that they are.

    Read More
    • Replies: @AP

    Cyril and Methodius were Macedonians.
     
    Their exact origins are unknown, though most sources claim they were Greeks. But nice to see that in your world you think they were definitely Macedonian "Slavs." Maybe you think Slavs built the pyramids also?
  103. AP says:
    @Mr. XYZ
    @AP: Thank you for your response here.

    Also, out of curiosity--do you know what percentage of the ancestry of Serbs, Bulgarians, and Macedonians is Slavic? Is it something like 5%? Even less than that?

    In addition to this, how much elements of Slavic culture did Serbs, Bulgarians, and Macedonians adopt? Do you know? Basically, it looks like Macedonian and Russian folk costumes are somewhat similar--which is why I am curious about this:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonians_(ethnic_group)#/media/File:Makedonski_Nosii_2.jpg

    https://www.google.com/search?q=russian+folk+dress&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjXhsWc7PXVAhUV42MKHXRbBBMQ_AUICygC&biw=1920&bih=950#imgrc=kOYajirIWHz53M:

    In regards to culture, though, I stand by my statement that one can adopt another ethnic group's culture without actually being a member of an ethnic group. For instance, one can be a Moroccan Jew and consider oneself ethnically French.

    As for your national IQ data, I would like to point out that it is possible that Bulgarian and especially Serbian IQs might be a bit depressed; after all, Greeks have an IQ of around 95 and I am unsure as to how different Serbs and Bulgarians are from Greeks. Also, some of Richard Lynn's IQ data appears to be outdated; for instance, he gives an IQ of 82 for Kazakhs whereas the most recent PISA data from Kazakhstan gives an IQ of around 10 points higher (the approximately 100 IQ Slavs should only add a couple of points to Kazakhstan's total IQ).

    Finally, out of curiosity--since you mentioned the "trans-" concept in general, I can't help but ask--what exactly do you think about transgender people? Indeed, I am especially curious about this considering that, if I remember correctly, you previously (several years ago) expressed support for same-sex marriage in one of your comments on Anatoly Karlin's blog.

    : Thank you for your response here.

    Also, out of curiosity–do you know what percentage of the ancestry of Serbs, Bulgarians, and Macedonians is Slavic? Is it something like 5%? Even less than that?

    I’d guess around 10%.

    R1A is a Slavic marker; it isn’t limited to Slavs (it also exists in central Asia), but around 50% of Slavic populations have this marker. Here’s a map:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_studies_on_Serbs#/media/File:Distribution_Haplogroup_R1a_Y-DNA.svg

    Balkan “Slavs” have less of this marker than do Hungarians, but more than do, say, the French. They are like eastern Germans or Bavarians. Turks also have this, getting it from Central Asia, so some of the Serbian % may be due to mixing with Turks, who ruled Serbia for centuries.

    In regards to culture, though, I stand by my statement that one can adopt another ethnic group’s culture without actually being a member of an ethnic group

    If you mean “Slavic” in the sense that Africans, Algerians, Haitians, Quebecois and Frenchmen are part of some sort of French-speaking “world” than sure. But that’s not now Slavophiles see it. For them it’s about brotherhood, the idiot Cyrano was talking about being the product of Slavic migrations to the Balkans, etc. From this perspective he is as much of a Slav as a Haitian is a Frenchman.

    As for your national IQ data, I would like to point out that it is possible that Bulgarian and especially Serbian IQs might be a bit depressed; after all, Greeks have an IQ of around 95 and I am unsure as to how different Serbs and Bulgarians are from Greeks.

    Serbs and Bulgarians are largely descended from Albanian and Thracian types, the original peoples of the Balkans, not from Greeks.

    he gives an IQ of 82 for Kazakhs whereas the most recent PISA data from Kazakhstan gives an IQ of around 10 points higher (the approximately 100 IQ Slavs should only add a couple of points to Kazakhstan’s total IQ)

    Correct. There has been some catch-up. However, as Sailer showed on his chart, PISA results for Balkan Slavs are lower than for Hispanic-Americans and only a little higher than among African-Americans:

    https://isteve.blogspot.com/2013/12/overall-pisa-rankings-include-america.html

    Serbs and Bulgarians are about the same (actually slightly lower) than Turks. Montenegrins are lower than African-Americans.

    Finally, out of curiosity–since you mentioned the “trans-” concept in general, I can’t help but ask–what exactly do you think about transgender people?

    They have difficult lives and I oppose discriminating against them or harming them in any way. On the other hand, a man doesn’t become a real woman simply because he cuts something off, and an Albanian doesn’t become a real Slav if he speaks a Slavic language.

    Read More
  104. AP says:
    @Cyrano

    In addition to this, how much elements of Slavic culture did Serbs, Bulgarians, and Macedonians adopt? Do you know? Basically, it looks like Macedonian and Russian folk costumes are somewhat similar–which is why I am curious about this:
     
    The hell you are talking about? We didn't "adopt" diddly. We gave those morons the alphabet - Cyril and Methodius were Macedonians. As far as I am concerned, they adopted our culture, ignorant stupid f**ks that they are.

    Cyril and Methodius were Macedonians.

    Their exact origins are unknown, though most sources claim they were Greeks. But nice to see that in your world you think they were definitely Macedonian “Slavs.” Maybe you think Slavs built the pyramids also?

    Read More
  105. AP says:
    @Cyrano
    Balkan Slavs are about 12-16% Slavs. And we are all geniuses. Don't listen to AP. He is stupid.

    Balkan Slavs are about 12-16% Slavs.

    So by your numbers African Americans are more white (average European ancestry 18%) , than Balkan “Slavs” are Slavs.

    Read More
  106. Pavlo says:
    @DFH
    Poles are obviously the greatest slavs

    Lyakhs are suitable for scalping and bitch labour.

    Твої люди кровоточать, як свині, і плачуть, як жінки

    Read More
  107. AP says:
    @Simpleguest
    I guess you have herd that the first Slavic alphabet, the Glagolitic script, was devised by Cyril and Methodius, and that it was based on the dialect of the Slavic tribes populating the areas surrounding Salonica in the then Byzantine empire. Those tribes are ancestors of the contemporary Macedonian and Bulgarian Slavic nations.

    Both of these contemporary nations, as well as the Serbian, Croats, Slovenian, or any other Slavic nation, including Ukrainian, were formed by assimilating a large proportion of other peoples, either native to the land where Slavic tribes were settling, or invading it later at some point in history.

    That should be a source of pride to you because the Slavic element always comes out dominant.
    Instead, you are spewing some drivel about genetics like you are some kind of a Germanic "ubermench", Or you would like to be one? Well, tough lack,

    Instead, you are spewing some drivel about genetics like you are some kind of a Germanic “ubermench”

    I wasn’t making any Nazi-like claims about some sort of “master race”, just pointing out that a people with very little actual Slavic ancestry (as shown by genetic research) aren’t, actually, Slavs.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Cyrano
    Well why don’t you make some good use of your superior Slavic genes? Buy a plane ticket and go help your brothers in Ukraine. And when you meet the first Russian and when he starts whooping your stupid cowardly a**, tell him your heart-wrenching story about how you are purer Slav than him. I bet it will stop him dead in his tracks. Russians especially love stories about someone being genetically superior to them, you should definitely use it to your advantage if you got yourself in such situation.
    , @Simpleguest
    "I wasn’t making any Nazi-like claims about some sort of “master race”, just pointing out that a
    people with very little actual Slavic ancestry (as shown by genetic research) aren’t, actually,
    Slavs."

    Genetic evidence and genetic research are inherently racist.
    They can be, and are actually being used, to divide nations, inside and out, not unite them.

    Genetic research, assuming that it is 100% accurate and valid, (which it is not like any other human science), can reveal major differences between various parts of one and the same nation and lead to arguments about who is a "true something" and who is not.

    Nations are formed around common ideas, common interests and similar common everyday things not common genes.

    In that respect, I am sorry, but I find your your position very racist, in line to what the neo-nazis in Ukraine are spewing out.

  108. Pavlo says:
    @AP
    You write as a wife writes of the husband who left her, so much bitterness and scorn towards that no-good man, poor rejected woman.

    Don't worry, you can move on. China will warmly embrace you.

    :) Dear doctor, a little friendly advice – give up.

    You’ve spent years now wasting your evident talents in the service of a hopeless, forever failing cause. You are a shill for losers, and that makes you a loser – and you know this , which is why you threw a hissy fit at being reminded of it.

    Give up the sad Ukrainian LARPing and become a generic white American – there’s still hope for them!

    Read More
  109. @Parbes
    I see that you, too, in typical useless nebbish fashion, choose to focus your attention on the repetition of my comment, rather than on its substance and relevance to the article. If you have some negative criticism to make about the actual content of my comment (as seems to be implied by your oblique reference to "dumbness"), then why not enlighten us by explicating, o wise one?

    Sorry if my comment wasn’t clear enough. I meant to say that the content seemed fine to me.

    It was just the form of your comment, the repetition, that was bothersome, though I understand why you did it, and it gave me the idea for a new feature request.

    I think everyone would agree with you that “Asian” is a nearly meaningless category, on the order of “Other”, because it is much too wide and imprecise. (I don’t think it generally includes Middle Easterners though, except in Sweden, apparently https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asian_people#Definitions_by_country ).

    Read More
  110. Cyrano says:
    @AP

    Instead, you are spewing some drivel about genetics like you are some kind of a Germanic “ubermench”
     
    I wasn't making any Nazi-like claims about some sort of "master race", just pointing out that a people with very little actual Slavic ancestry (as shown by genetic research) aren't, actually, Slavs.

    Well why don’t you make some good use of your superior Slavic genes? Buy a plane ticket and go help your brothers in Ukraine. And when you meet the first Russian and when he starts whooping your stupid cowardly a**, tell him your heart-wrenching story about how you are purer Slav than him. I bet it will stop him dead in his tracks. Russians especially love stories about someone being genetically superior to them, you should definitely use it to your advantage if you got yourself in such situation.

    Read More
    • Replies: @AP

    why don’t you make some good use of your superior Slavic genes
     
    Slow Srano hasn't figured out that nothing about "superiority" was mentioned.

    And when you meet the first Russian and when he starts whooping
     
    I've gotten along quite well with Russians, having lived in Russia. Delightful place.

    Russians especially love stories about someone being genetically superior to them
     
    Again Srano, nothing about "genetic superiority" was mentioned. Genetic evidence was merely used to show that Russians, Poles, Ukrainians, Croats, etc. are Slavs while Serbs, Macedonians and Bulgarians are not.

    As usual, you need to have things repeated several times before you learn.
  111. Anon says: • Disclaimer
    @Mr. Hack
    Funny, I don't see Ukrainians poaching on their neighbors' lands, as the Poles have done in the past, and the Russians are still doing today?...

    I realize that according to your revisionist views of history, Lenin sewed together a state called Ukraine that had no basis to exist. However, you always seem to overlook that fact that Ukrainians formed the majority ethnicity in all the lands stitched together, except the Crimea (they were the second or possibly the third largest ethnicity there). Ukrainians had to live under the imperial designs of their neighbors, the Russians, Poles and Austrians. Today they're only asking that their neighbors leave them alone and let them continue their state building processes.

    If Ukraine has never expanded at the cost of its neighbors, how do you explain their possession of the Snake Island?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    the Experts at the International Court of Justice deemed Snake Island as part of Ukraine in 2009. If you have an issue with their ruling, take it up with them, and not with me.
  112. Anon says: • Disclaimer
    @Cyrano
    Communists used to have a catchy little slogan: “Dictatorship of the proletariat”. Or in other words – Oppression by the oppressed. Kind of contradiction in terms.

    Meaning that those who have been oppressed cannot be oppressors. Pretty clever. It was supposed to point to the humanism of the whole Communist rule. In reality there was no dictatorship of the proletariat, but dictatorship of Communist party leaders over the proletariat.

    Now what the rich elites in US are trying to do is variation on the same theme. The “racists” are the bad guys or in other words - oppressors. By denying them a free speech, the rich elites are oppressing the oppressors, which makes the rich elites the good guys. And how can that be a bad thing – oppressing the oppressors? Which is also a load of bull.

    The rich elites are the original oppressors, the original racists, they are the ones that brought the N words as slaves to US and now in their latest reincarnation of philanthropy, they nicely transferred the guilt of those days to the poor working class and pitted them against their former involuntary proteges.

    If that’s not a masterful manipulation, I don’t know what is. And at the end of the day (and sometimes even at the beginning of the next one), the rich elites are the good guys. And the class struggle is buried somewhere on the last page of the newspaper, among the obituaries.

    Actually no. The phrase “dictatorship of the proletariat” was not mean to show how nice the new regime was. It was a dictatorship of the proletariat. It will take you 10 minutes of reading through Marx Manifesto to understand that proper communists are only the workers, because bourgeois and lumpenproletariat (the poorer-than-workers class, such as prostitutes and NEETs) are easily bought out or fooled to fight for the rich, and against the revolution.
    It was an assumed dictatorship, no niceties.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Cyrano
    You could be right, but my interpretation is like this: In order to have a dictatorship, you need at least 2 classes: dictator(s) and oppressed. If the proletariat are the dictators now, who are they oppressing? The bourgeoisie? They are gone, the revolution took care of them. The proletariat cannot be both oppressors and oppressed. Dictatorship of the proletariat means there is no more oppression because there is only one class left.
  113. AP says:
    @Cyrano
    Well why don’t you make some good use of your superior Slavic genes? Buy a plane ticket and go help your brothers in Ukraine. And when you meet the first Russian and when he starts whooping your stupid cowardly a**, tell him your heart-wrenching story about how you are purer Slav than him. I bet it will stop him dead in his tracks. Russians especially love stories about someone being genetically superior to them, you should definitely use it to your advantage if you got yourself in such situation.

    why don’t you make some good use of your superior Slavic genes

    Slow Srano hasn’t figured out that nothing about “superiority” was mentioned.

    And when you meet the first Russian and when he starts whooping

    I’ve gotten along quite well with Russians, having lived in Russia. Delightful place.

    Russians especially love stories about someone being genetically superior to them

    Again Srano, nothing about “genetic superiority” was mentioned. Genetic evidence was merely used to show that Russians, Poles, Ukrainians, Croats, etc. are Slavs while Serbs, Macedonians and Bulgarians are not.

    As usual, you need to have things repeated several times before you learn.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Cyrano
    Listen you stupid s**t. You don't decide how I am. You are too stupid to decide even who you are let alone about someone else. My nation has more dignity than your stupid one. We didn't welcomed the Germans with flowers while being called untermensch. We don't think that west is superior to us, like you sold out whores. I don't care for your racial "purity". It doesn't do anything for improving your dignity. As far as I am concerned I am better Slav than you are, because I don't bend and crawl to anything that comes from the west. Now go back to you village and milk the cows there or something, you stupid Ukrainian peasant.
  114. Medvedev says:
    @AP

    Neither Malorussians, nor Ruthenians viewed themselves as Ukrainians until mid of 19th century.
     
    They did not collectively refer to themselves by that name until that time, certainly. This does not mean, of course, that they thought of themselves as Russians (Great Russians, in those times) though Rus patriotism was strong among the elites.

    Even Lviv, which is considered a heart of Ukrainian nationalist movement, had Ruthenian (Rus’ka in original) organizations like Supreme Ruthenian (Rus’ka) Council etc.
     
    Correct. One of the oldest streets in that city, by the market square, settled by Ukrainians/Ruthenians, is Rus'ka Street.

    ‘Ukrainian nation’ was a creation of Austrian government
     
    So which Austrian government official standardized the Ukrainian language, wrote Ukrainian literature, wrote Ukrainian history, etc.?

    The Austrian government played the same role in Ukrainian identity formation as the Russian one played in Latvian or Estonian identity formation. Seeking to limit the power of local elites (Polish/Polonized in Galicia, German in the Baltics) the central government allowed free reign to local activists to mobilize the poorer, more rural majorities in the territory. In Galicia this included allowing a bunch of Ukrainian nationalists exiled from the Russian Empire to settle in.

    So to be accurate, the "Ukrainian nation" was the creation of exiled Ukrainians from central and Eastern Ukraine, primarily of Cossack officer and petty noble descent.

    BTW, prior to the souring of relations between Russia and Austria-Hungary, the Austrian government was promoting Russophile ideas in Galicia, in opposition to Polonophilia. Austrians switched to supporting Ukrainian nationalists later. Will you admit that the Russia idea is also an Austrian creation?


    that was cemented by Communists. If it hadn’t been for Communists:
    - either Malorussians would have remained part of big Russian ethnicity
     
    A fairy tale.

    - In 1917 Ukrainian national parties easily won the vote in Ukrainian areas of Russia.

    - During the Russian Civil war there were zero significant forces or people of Ukrainian/Little Russian from Ukraine. There were various Ukrainian nationalist warlords, the anarchist Makhno, but not a single military force or leader who could be considered a Ukrainian or Little Russian fought for any sort of Russian idea. Some ethnic Ukrainians from outside Ukraine (such as Kuban) fought for the Whites, but none from Ukraine did.

    As someone else noted, Bolsheviks capitalized on already existing feelings, they didn't create Ukrainian identity.

    Russians have historically botched their relationship with Ukraine, probably due to their wishful thinking and ignorance about the place.


    or they would have formed into a separate nation that would have preserved Russian/Rus’kiy spirit, same way as independent Austria or Switzerland keep close bond with German identity.
     
    A more realistic analogy would have been Norway and Sweden, Scandinavian countries with generally friendly ties. But historically, the St, Petersburg government expanded serfdom in Ukraine and crushed local autonomy, the Moscow government starved to death millions of people, and the new one now make possible a low-grade civil war. Such policies don't promote a shared sentimental spirit.

    St, Petersburg government expanded serfdom in Ukraine and crushed local autonomy, the Moscow government starved to death millions of people, and the new one now make possible a low-grade civil war. Such policies don’t promote a shared sentimental spirit

    You’re mixing up attitudes in Russian Empire towards Malorussians, atrocities communists committed and attitudes in nowadays Russia.
    Russian Empire saw Malorussians as integral part of Big Russian nation, they were among nobles, fought side-by-side and nothing indicated malicious intent like genocide, Holodomor etc. As for serfdom: Russians weren’t spared from serfdom, although it was less severe in many parts due to geography. Had independent Ukraine existed back then, Ukrainians still would have been serves for Cossack nobility.

    the Austrian government was promoting Russophile ideas in Galicia, in opposition to Polonophilia. Austrians switched to supporting Ukrainian nationalists later. Will you admit that the Russia idea is also an Austrian creation?

    You’re correct. There was Rusophile movement, which sought reunification of Russain people, and pro-Ruthenian/Ukrainian movement. But they (Austrian government) were quick to support the second one, since growing Moscow power and existence of Rusophile movement was a mortal thread to Austrian rule over these lands. And the idea to inflict such ideas on Russian territory was a sweet deal.
    And many of those separatists, raised by Austria-Hungary, later infiltrated and infected Malorussia, like Grushevskiy. Yet, their support among people was so low that they feared to seek independence even when central Russian government was collapsing in front of them. Gee, even Donets-Krivoy Rog Republic had more support among people. UNR was a phantom republic that existed briefly and know pupils are taught about heroic of Battle of Kruty. But what the battle shows how weak and unpopular UNR was.

    My points:
    1. I don’t argue that nowadays Ukrainians are part of Russian nation. They aren’t.
    2. I do argue that 200 years ago Malorussians were rather sub-ethnic group of Russian nation and didn’t realize themselves as a separate ethnic group. One can argue that Germans, Italians or Russians hadn’t realized themselves as unique, formed nations only few hundred years ago.
    3. Malorussians could have assimilated into big Russian nation, separate into a closely related nation with Rus identity (like Switzerland or Austria or, as you say, like Sweden or Norway) or progressively diverge. The latter happened with a great assistance from communists (both in cementing separate Ukrainian identity and genociding millions of Ukrainians).

    Read More
    • Replies: @Mr. Hack

    1. I don’t argue that nowadays Ukrainians are part of Russian nation. They aren’t.
     
    It's too bad that Anatoly Karlin can't be persuaded to your point of view. Apparently he still thinks that Ukrainians are Malorussians that need to be coaxed militarily into the mindset that they are just a subset of the Russian nation.
    , @AP

    You’re mixing up attitudes in Russian Empire towards Malorussians, atrocities communists committed and attitudes in nowadays Russia.
     
    It was three discrete phenomena, each of which contributed to negative feelings that got in the way of friendly, brotherly ties as we see among the Nordic countries.

    Russian Empire saw Malorussians as integral part of Big Russian nation, they were among nobles, fought side-by-side and nothing indicated malicious intent like genocide, Holodomor etc. As for serfdom: Russians weren’t spared from serfdom, although it was less severe in many parts due to geography.
     
    Correct. However things looked different form the Ukrainian point of view. Serfdom existed but had been scaled back significantly following Khmelnytsky's uprising. Integrating with Russian norms meant that serfdom became a lot worse in Ukraine under Moscow's rule than it had been earlier.

    Integration meant a lot of good opportunities for Ukrainian nobles and Cossack officer families (these groups were intermixed) but also loss of political autonomy and traditional rights. Many took advantage of the opportunities and were successful (Gogol was a good example, though he was more ambivalent than Russian mythology says), but many others from these Cossack officer/noble families were nostalgic for what was lost, and resentful. The latter group were the ones who created the "Ukrainian idea."

    Of course, Bolshevik atrocities led from Moscow were much worse.


    There was Rusophile movement, which sought reunification of Russain people, and pro-Ruthenian/Ukrainian movement. But they (Austrian government) were quick to support the second one, since growing Moscow power and existence of Rusophile movement was a mortal thread to Austrian rule over these lands.
     
    When Austria annexed western Ukraine, the Rusyn elite had a strong pro-Polish orientation. Not in the modern sense - they were not ethnic Poles and didn't see themselves as such, but in the sense of Poland being a republic of nobles. Many Rusyn nobles crossed the border and took part in Polish uprisings. Austria supported the Russophile movement as a way of breaking this. Remember that Austria and Russia were allies until the latter 19th century (Russia helped Austria crush the Hungarian uprising in 1848). So Austria supported the Russophile movement for a long time. The Ruska Rada was Austrian-supported.

    Only when Austria and Russia became rivals did Austria switch its support.


    And many of those separatists, raised by Austria-Hungary, later infiltrated and infected Malorussia, like Grushevskiy.
     
    Hrushevsky was from the Russian Empire, with family roots in Podolia (Vynnytsia oblast) who was exiled and came to Austria after having been a professor in the Russian Empire. One of the ironies about Galicia's national identity was that the local elites were heavily Russophile, until the arrival of these exiles from the Russian Empire.

    ...their support among people was so low that they feared to seek independence even when central Russian government was collapsing in front of them.
     
    Again, Ukrainian parties dominated the 1917 elections in Ukrainian territory. Kiev voted about 70% for Ukrainian nationalist parties.

    Again, during the civil war, there were hundreds of local warlords in Ukraine. None of them were pro-Russian. There were various nationalist bands, Makhno the anarchist. Russian nationalists had no local support beyond small number of ethnic Russians in places like Kiev.


    do argue that 200 years ago Malorussians were rather sub-ethnic group of Russian nation and didn’t realize themselves as a separate ethnic group.
     
    Today when we speak of Russians we mean what was then called "Great Russians." Ukrainians (then - Little Russians) did not think of themselves as a subgroup of Great Russians. This is an important distinction. They thought of themselves, Little Russians, as equal to Great Russians (and, actually, as superior to them) as mutual Rus people. In their view, they were the weaker, but older and "purer" brother.* They standardized the Little Russian language and wanted it taught in schools. They professed loyalty to the Tsar and opposed Jews and Poles. When the Russian government decided to try to force the Little Russian Rus patriots into assimilating into Great Russian culture, there was a strong backlash to this "betrayal" leading to the separate Ukrainian idea; the Little Russian language was renamed accordingly.

    Botching Ukrainian policies is an old Russian political tradition.

    *This was obviously a myth, as the Little Russian language was full of Polish words. But it was in their writings.

  115. @Anon
    http://nypost.com/2017/08/25/man-gets-three-months-in-prison-for-liking-a-photo-on-facebook/

    “Like” at your own risk.

    A man in France was sentenced to 3 months behind bars this week — for liking a photo on Facebook, a report says.
     

    Suspended sentence, so not “behind bars”. Insane and chilling nonetheless. We have built tools to enslave ourselves…

    «Quand on met J’aime, c’est que l’on considère que ce n’est pas choquant ou que l’on adhère», considère pour sa part Jean-Baptiste Bougerol, le substitut du procureur de la République. «Il avait un compte privé et activé les paramètres de confidentialité», rétorque son avocate.

    “If you Like something, it means you consider it’s not shocking or that you approve”, considered [the judge]. “But he had a private account and had activated privacy parameters”, his lawyer replied.

    http://www.leparisien.fr/rozay-en-brie-77540/rozay-en-brie-condamne-pour-avoir-like-une-photo-de-daesh-22-08-2017-7206846.php

    Read More
  116. Mr. Hack says:
    @Medvedev

    St, Petersburg government expanded serfdom in Ukraine and crushed local autonomy, the Moscow government starved to death millions of people, and the new one now make possible a low-grade civil war. Such policies don’t promote a shared sentimental spirit
     
    You're mixing up attitudes in Russian Empire towards Malorussians, atrocities communists committed and attitudes in nowadays Russia.
    Russian Empire saw Malorussians as integral part of Big Russian nation, they were among nobles, fought side-by-side and nothing indicated malicious intent like genocide, Holodomor etc. As for serfdom: Russians weren't spared from serfdom, although it was less severe in many parts due to geography. Had independent Ukraine existed back then, Ukrainians still would have been serves for Cossack nobility.

    the Austrian government was promoting Russophile ideas in Galicia, in opposition to Polonophilia. Austrians switched to supporting Ukrainian nationalists later. Will you admit that the Russia idea is also an Austrian creation?
     
    You're correct. There was Rusophile movement, which sought reunification of Russain people, and pro-Ruthenian/Ukrainian movement. But they (Austrian government) were quick to support the second one, since growing Moscow power and existence of Rusophile movement was a mortal thread to Austrian rule over these lands. And the idea to inflict such ideas on Russian territory was a sweet deal.
    And many of those separatists, raised by Austria-Hungary, later infiltrated and infected Malorussia, like Grushevskiy. Yet, their support among people was so low that they feared to seek independence even when central Russian government was collapsing in front of them. Gee, even Donets-Krivoy Rog Republic had more support among people. UNR was a phantom republic that existed briefly and know pupils are taught about heroic of Battle of Kruty. But what the battle shows how weak and unpopular UNR was.

    My points:
    1. I don't argue that nowadays Ukrainians are part of Russian nation. They aren't.
    2. I do argue that 200 years ago Malorussians were rather sub-ethnic group of Russian nation and didn't realize themselves as a separate ethnic group. One can argue that Germans, Italians or Russians hadn't realized themselves as unique, formed nations only few hundred years ago.
    3. Malorussians could have assimilated into big Russian nation, separate into a closely related nation with Rus identity (like Switzerland or Austria or, as you say, like Sweden or Norway) or progressively diverge. The latter happened with a great assistance from communists (both in cementing separate Ukrainian identity and genociding millions of Ukrainians).

    1. I don’t argue that nowadays Ukrainians are part of Russian nation. They aren’t.

    It’s too bad that Anatoly Karlin can’t be persuaded to your point of view. Apparently he still thinks that Ukrainians are Malorussians that need to be coaxed militarily into the mindset that they are just a subset of the Russian nation.

    Read More
  117. Mr. Hack says:
    @Anon
    If Ukraine has never expanded at the cost of its neighbors, how do you explain their possession of the Snake Island?

    the Experts at the International Court of Justice deemed Snake Island as part of Ukraine in 2009. If you have an issue with their ruling, take it up with them, and not with me.

    Read More
  118. @German_reader

    But as noted, Singapore does have pretty significant hate speech laws and I do believe that freedom of speech is very much a Western, indeed, Anglo tradition
     
    That's certainly true, I can attest that the concept has much shallower roots in Germany with its authoritarian traditions (free speech here comes up mostly in connection with terms like "limits of" or "abuse of").
    Yes, a detailed breakdown about different groups of "Asians" would indeed be nice, I'd suppose that at least on some questions there would be very significant differences between different groups (I can't see any reason why Chinese or Koreans would be especially tolerant towards the free speech of anti-US Muslim clerics).

    One of the most tragic results of increasing polarization is how viewpoints are increasingly cast in terms of good or evil; it makes discourse extremely difficult. At least to me, the larger population seems to have dramatically lost a great deal of the background, basic knowledge that I once expected from people: for example, that most guys would have read Heinlein, Orwell, Shakesphere, or have at least a thought or two for Cartesian doubt. And I would have considered that to be basically pop culture! I would wish that more people know of Sophocles and Middleton.

    Instead, as real pop culture has rapidly short-circuited thought into emotional highs and lows, everything is cast in a manner which coordinates well with thought suppression. If you truly feel, for example, that a disagreeing idea is evil, then you have to keep the people safe from contaminating ideas.

    I can only hope that this phenomenon is limited, if only for the sake of my desire to be able to talk about Animal Farm with individuals.

    Read More
    • Agree: Talha
    • Replies: @European-American
    I wonder if in various East Asian societies free speech would also tend to be repressed out of a desire to "be polite". Politeness, face-saving, not causing a fuss in most contexts, social harmony, ... these seem to be still quite important in what I've seen of East Asian societies (I'll admit I'm no expert).

    So free speech could be frowned upon as just rude. And we don't want to be rude, right? We have a lot of ways to express thoughts and take care of problems in more indirect ways. Outright free speech is just poor manners. A little hypocrisy, a little staying below the radar is just common sense. Someone who outright voices opinions he knows to be unpopular deserves to get into trouble.

    Free speech may be ok for Westerners, but like a lot of Western things it's a little clumsy, awkward, childish, and in poor taste.

    [Note for the record: I personally don't agree with this (yet!) and I don't know if any East Asians would see things this way. It's just my guess. I'd be interested in information about East Asian attitudes towrds free speech.

    Personally I think free speech is one of our greatest achievements and gifts, and I feel sad that it seems to be falling out of fashion.

    But maybe I am naive, and free speech is only possible in certain very specific contexts. In the global Orwellian society we are recklessly building for ourselves, of course free speech is no longer possible. Duh!]

  119. AP says:
    @Medvedev

    St, Petersburg government expanded serfdom in Ukraine and crushed local autonomy, the Moscow government starved to death millions of people, and the new one now make possible a low-grade civil war. Such policies don’t promote a shared sentimental spirit
     
    You're mixing up attitudes in Russian Empire towards Malorussians, atrocities communists committed and attitudes in nowadays Russia.
    Russian Empire saw Malorussians as integral part of Big Russian nation, they were among nobles, fought side-by-side and nothing indicated malicious intent like genocide, Holodomor etc. As for serfdom: Russians weren't spared from serfdom, although it was less severe in many parts due to geography. Had independent Ukraine existed back then, Ukrainians still would have been serves for Cossack nobility.

    the Austrian government was promoting Russophile ideas in Galicia, in opposition to Polonophilia. Austrians switched to supporting Ukrainian nationalists later. Will you admit that the Russia idea is also an Austrian creation?
     
    You're correct. There was Rusophile movement, which sought reunification of Russain people, and pro-Ruthenian/Ukrainian movement. But they (Austrian government) were quick to support the second one, since growing Moscow power and existence of Rusophile movement was a mortal thread to Austrian rule over these lands. And the idea to inflict such ideas on Russian territory was a sweet deal.
    And many of those separatists, raised by Austria-Hungary, later infiltrated and infected Malorussia, like Grushevskiy. Yet, their support among people was so low that they feared to seek independence even when central Russian government was collapsing in front of them. Gee, even Donets-Krivoy Rog Republic had more support among people. UNR was a phantom republic that existed briefly and know pupils are taught about heroic of Battle of Kruty. But what the battle shows how weak and unpopular UNR was.

    My points:
    1. I don't argue that nowadays Ukrainians are part of Russian nation. They aren't.
    2. I do argue that 200 years ago Malorussians were rather sub-ethnic group of Russian nation and didn't realize themselves as a separate ethnic group. One can argue that Germans, Italians or Russians hadn't realized themselves as unique, formed nations only few hundred years ago.
    3. Malorussians could have assimilated into big Russian nation, separate into a closely related nation with Rus identity (like Switzerland or Austria or, as you say, like Sweden or Norway) or progressively diverge. The latter happened with a great assistance from communists (both in cementing separate Ukrainian identity and genociding millions of Ukrainians).

    You’re mixing up attitudes in Russian Empire towards Malorussians, atrocities communists committed and attitudes in nowadays Russia.

    It was three discrete phenomena, each of which contributed to negative feelings that got in the way of friendly, brotherly ties as we see among the Nordic countries.

    Russian Empire saw Malorussians as integral part of Big Russian nation, they were among nobles, fought side-by-side and nothing indicated malicious intent like genocide, Holodomor etc. As for serfdom: Russians weren’t spared from serfdom, although it was less severe in many parts due to geography.

    Correct. However things looked different form the Ukrainian point of view. Serfdom existed but had been scaled back significantly following Khmelnytsky’s uprising. Integrating with Russian norms meant that serfdom became a lot worse in Ukraine under Moscow’s rule than it had been earlier.

    Integration meant a lot of good opportunities for Ukrainian nobles and Cossack officer families (these groups were intermixed) but also loss of political autonomy and traditional rights. Many took advantage of the opportunities and were successful (Gogol was a good example, though he was more ambivalent than Russian mythology says), but many others from these Cossack officer/noble families were nostalgic for what was lost, and resentful. The latter group were the ones who created the “Ukrainian idea.”

    Of course, Bolshevik atrocities led from Moscow were much worse.

    There was Rusophile movement, which sought reunification of Russain people, and pro-Ruthenian/Ukrainian movement. But they (Austrian government) were quick to support the second one, since growing Moscow power and existence of Rusophile movement was a mortal thread to Austrian rule over these lands.

    When Austria annexed western Ukraine, the Rusyn elite had a strong pro-Polish orientation. Not in the modern sense – they were not ethnic Poles and didn’t see themselves as such, but in the sense of Poland being a republic of nobles. Many Rusyn nobles crossed the border and took part in Polish uprisings. Austria supported the Russophile movement as a way of breaking this. Remember that Austria and Russia were allies until the latter 19th century (Russia helped Austria crush the Hungarian uprising in 1848). So Austria supported the Russophile movement for a long time. The Ruska Rada was Austrian-supported.

    Only when Austria and Russia became rivals did Austria switch its support.

    And many of those separatists, raised by Austria-Hungary, later infiltrated and infected Malorussia, like Grushevskiy.

    Hrushevsky was from the Russian Empire, with family roots in Podolia (Vynnytsia oblast) who was exiled and came to Austria after having been a professor in the Russian Empire. One of the ironies about Galicia’s national identity was that the local elites were heavily Russophile, until the arrival of these exiles from the Russian Empire.

    …their support among people was so low that they feared to seek independence even when central Russian government was collapsing in front of them.

    Again, Ukrainian parties dominated the 1917 elections in Ukrainian territory. Kiev voted about 70% for Ukrainian nationalist parties.

    Again, during the civil war, there were hundreds of local warlords in Ukraine. None of them were pro-Russian. There were various nationalist bands, Makhno the anarchist. Russian nationalists had no local support beyond small number of ethnic Russians in places like Kiev.

    do argue that 200 years ago Malorussians were rather sub-ethnic group of Russian nation and didn’t realize themselves as a separate ethnic group.

    Today when we speak of Russians we mean what was then called “Great Russians.” Ukrainians (then – Little Russians) did not think of themselves as a subgroup of Great Russians. This is an important distinction. They thought of themselves, Little Russians, as equal to Great Russians (and, actually, as superior to them) as mutual Rus people. In their view, they were the weaker, but older and “purer” brother.* They standardized the Little Russian language and wanted it taught in schools. They professed loyalty to the Tsar and opposed Jews and Poles. When the Russian government decided to try to force the Little Russian Rus patriots into assimilating into Great Russian culture, there was a strong backlash to this “betrayal” leading to the separate Ukrainian idea; the Little Russian language was renamed accordingly.

    Botching Ukrainian policies is an old Russian political tradition.

    *This was obviously a myth, as the Little Russian language was full of Polish words. But it was in their writings.

    Read More
  120. @AP

    Instead, you are spewing some drivel about genetics like you are some kind of a Germanic “ubermench”
     
    I wasn't making any Nazi-like claims about some sort of "master race", just pointing out that a people with very little actual Slavic ancestry (as shown by genetic research) aren't, actually, Slavs.

    “I wasn’t making any Nazi-like claims about some sort of “master race”, just pointing out that a
    people with very little actual Slavic ancestry (as shown by genetic research) aren’t, actually,
    Slavs.”

    Genetic evidence and genetic research are inherently racist.
    They can be, and are actually being used, to divide nations, inside and out, not unite them.

    Genetic research, assuming that it is 100% accurate and valid, (which it is not like any other human science), can reveal major differences between various parts of one and the same nation and lead to arguments about who is a “true something” and who is not.

    Nations are formed around common ideas, common interests and similar common everyday things not common genes.

    In that respect, I am sorry, but I find your your position very racist, in line to what the neo-nazis in Ukraine are spewing out.

    Read More
  121. Talha says:

    Also – the little girl in the picture is quite cute – what is that in her hand? A rainbow-coalition poodle or something? It seems like it is a nod to gay groups? Am I reading too much into it?

    Peace.

    Read More
  122. Cyrano says:
    @AP

    why don’t you make some good use of your superior Slavic genes
     
    Slow Srano hasn't figured out that nothing about "superiority" was mentioned.

    And when you meet the first Russian and when he starts whooping
     
    I've gotten along quite well with Russians, having lived in Russia. Delightful place.

    Russians especially love stories about someone being genetically superior to them
     
    Again Srano, nothing about "genetic superiority" was mentioned. Genetic evidence was merely used to show that Russians, Poles, Ukrainians, Croats, etc. are Slavs while Serbs, Macedonians and Bulgarians are not.

    As usual, you need to have things repeated several times before you learn.

    Listen you stupid s**t. You don’t decide how I am. You are too stupid to decide even who you are let alone about someone else. My nation has more dignity than your stupid one. We didn’t welcomed the Germans with flowers while being called untermensch. We don’t think that west is superior to us, like you sold out whores. I don’t care for your racial “purity”. It doesn’t do anything for improving your dignity. As far as I am concerned I am better Slav than you are, because I don’t bend and crawl to anything that comes from the west. Now go back to you village and milk the cows there or something, you stupid Ukrainian peasant.

    Read More
    • Replies: @AP

    You don’t decide how I am
     
    Neither do you, Srano. That's your problem.

    sold out whores
     
    There's your culture again.

    As far as I am concerned I am better Slav
     
    Your concern is irrelevant, non-Slav pretender. And on some level, even you are capable of understanding your nature. Look how desperate you are. :-)

    Rejecting the West doesn't make you more of a Slav, Albanian-who-pretends-to-be-a-Slav.

    Now go back to you village and milk the cows there or something
     
    This is very funny, coming from a Balkan. Nothing wrong with peasants, of course. What do you have against your own people?
  123. Cyrano says:
    @Anon
    Actually no. The phrase "dictatorship of the proletariat" was not mean to show how nice the new regime was. It was a dictatorship of the proletariat. It will take you 10 minutes of reading through Marx Manifesto to understand that proper communists are only the workers, because bourgeois and lumpenproletariat (the poorer-than-workers class, such as prostitutes and NEETs) are easily bought out or fooled to fight for the rich, and against the revolution.
    It was an assumed dictatorship, no niceties.

    You could be right, but my interpretation is like this: In order to have a dictatorship, you need at least 2 classes: dictator(s) and oppressed. If the proletariat are the dictators now, who are they oppressing? The bourgeoisie? They are gone, the revolution took care of them. The proletariat cannot be both oppressors and oppressed. Dictatorship of the proletariat means there is no more oppression because there is only one class left.

    Read More
    • Replies: @AP
    Brilliant logic. Shall we review national average IQs again?
  124. AP says:
    @Cyrano
    Listen you stupid s**t. You don't decide how I am. You are too stupid to decide even who you are let alone about someone else. My nation has more dignity than your stupid one. We didn't welcomed the Germans with flowers while being called untermensch. We don't think that west is superior to us, like you sold out whores. I don't care for your racial "purity". It doesn't do anything for improving your dignity. As far as I am concerned I am better Slav than you are, because I don't bend and crawl to anything that comes from the west. Now go back to you village and milk the cows there or something, you stupid Ukrainian peasant.

    You don’t decide how I am

    Neither do you, Srano. That’s your problem.

    sold out whores

    There’s your culture again.

    As far as I am concerned I am better Slav

    Your concern is irrelevant, non-Slav pretender. And on some level, even you are capable of understanding your nature. Look how desperate you are. :-)

    Rejecting the West doesn’t make you more of a Slav, Albanian-who-pretends-to-be-a-Slav.

    Now go back to you village and milk the cows there or something

    This is very funny, coming from a Balkan. Nothing wrong with peasants, of course. What do you have against your own people?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Cyrano
    Listen you Ukrainian moron. You are too stupid to have you own country. You gave it try -26 years. That's a new record for you. You and your nation are retards, you need guardianship. Russians have been doing that job for hundreds of years. They are the only ones who have the patience to deal with you. Europe is going to tire of you, US too. You can't take care of yourselves. Why don't you let the Russians be your mentors. They are the only ones who are qualified to do the job.
  125. AP says:
    @Cyrano
    You could be right, but my interpretation is like this: In order to have a dictatorship, you need at least 2 classes: dictator(s) and oppressed. If the proletariat are the dictators now, who are they oppressing? The bourgeoisie? They are gone, the revolution took care of them. The proletariat cannot be both oppressors and oppressed. Dictatorship of the proletariat means there is no more oppression because there is only one class left.

    Brilliant logic. Shall we review national average IQs again?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    Why waster your time (again)? He's too dumb to understand.
    , @Anatoly Karlin
    And yet for all that Ukraine seems to be doing not exactly stellar even relative to Serbia, despite the wars in the 1990s and lack of Russian gas subsidies.

    Even if Ukraine's national IQ is considerably higher than Serbia's* it doesn't seem to be making very good use of it.

    * Once again, I am not sure that it actually the case. In TIMSS 2007 Mathematics, the one international standardized test that I'm aware of in which comparable demographic groups (8th graders) of both countries participated, Serbia got 486 to Ukraine's 462 (Russia: 512).
  126. Mr. Hack says:
    @AP
    Brilliant logic. Shall we review national average IQs again?

    Why waster your time (again)? He’s too dumb to understand.

    Read More
  127. Cyrano says:
    @AP

    You don’t decide how I am
     
    Neither do you, Srano. That's your problem.

    sold out whores
     
    There's your culture again.

    As far as I am concerned I am better Slav
     
    Your concern is irrelevant, non-Slav pretender. And on some level, even you are capable of understanding your nature. Look how desperate you are. :-)

    Rejecting the West doesn't make you more of a Slav, Albanian-who-pretends-to-be-a-Slav.

    Now go back to you village and milk the cows there or something
     
    This is very funny, coming from a Balkan. Nothing wrong with peasants, of course. What do you have against your own people?

    Listen you Ukrainian moron. You are too stupid to have you own country. You gave it try -26 years. That’s a new record for you. You and your nation are retards, you need guardianship. Russians have been doing that job for hundreds of years. They are the only ones who have the patience to deal with you. Europe is going to tire of you, US too. You can’t take care of yourselves. Why don’t you let the Russians be your mentors. They are the only ones who are qualified to do the job.

    Read More
    • Replies: @AP
    Srano, you comically non-Slavic wanna be, review national IQs before making claims of stupidity.

    Also, if you were aware of history, and you are not because you are incapable of such, you would know that Ukraine prospered, relative to other countries, most when it was part of Austria-Hungary. Galicia's per capita at that time, while much lower than that of Austria itself (or Bohemia), was about the same as that of Slovakia and much higher than that of Russia, not to mention Serbia, Greece, etc.
    , @Art Deco
    Listen you Ukrainian moron.

    This sort of back-and-forth can be amusing if it is (1) deft and (2) doesn't extend longer than 2 sentences. You're failing on both counts and it's a godawful bore.
  128. @Daniel Chieh
    One of the most tragic results of increasing polarization is how viewpoints are increasingly cast in terms of good or evil; it makes discourse extremely difficult. At least to me, the larger population seems to have dramatically lost a great deal of the background, basic knowledge that I once expected from people: for example, that most guys would have read Heinlein, Orwell, Shakesphere, or have at least a thought or two for Cartesian doubt. And I would have considered that to be basically pop culture! I would wish that more people know of Sophocles and Middleton.

    Instead, as real pop culture has rapidly short-circuited thought into emotional highs and lows, everything is cast in a manner which coordinates well with thought suppression. If you truly feel, for example, that a disagreeing idea is evil, then you have to keep the people safe from contaminating ideas.

    I can only hope that this phenomenon is limited, if only for the sake of my desire to be able to talk about Animal Farm with individuals.

    I wonder if in various East Asian societies free speech would also tend to be repressed out of a desire to “be polite”. Politeness, face-saving, not causing a fuss in most contexts, social harmony, … these seem to be still quite important in what I’ve seen of East Asian societies (I’ll admit I’m no expert).

    So free speech could be frowned upon as just rude. And we don’t want to be rude, right? We have a lot of ways to express thoughts and take care of problems in more indirect ways. Outright free speech is just poor manners. A little hypocrisy, a little staying below the radar is just common sense. Someone who outright voices opinions he knows to be unpopular deserves to get into trouble.

    Free speech may be ok for Westerners, but like a lot of Western things it’s a little clumsy, awkward, childish, and in poor taste.

    [Note for the record: I personally don't agree with this (yet!) and I don't know if any East Asians would see things this way. It's just my guess. I'd be interested in information about East Asian attitudes towrds free speech.

    Personally I think free speech is one of our greatest achievements and gifts, and I feel sad that it seems to be falling out of fashion.

    But maybe I am naive, and free speech is only possible in certain very specific contexts. In the global Orwellian society we are recklessly building for ourselves, of course free speech is no longer possible. Duh!]

    Read More
  129. @AP
    Brilliant logic. Shall we review national average IQs again?

    And yet for all that Ukraine seems to be doing not exactly stellar even relative to Serbia, despite the wars in the 1990s and lack of Russian gas subsidies.

    Even if Ukraine’s national IQ is considerably higher than Serbia’s* it doesn’t seem to be making very good use of it.

    * Once again, I am not sure that it actually the case. In TIMSS 2007 Mathematics, the one international standardized test that I’m aware of in which comparable demographic groups (8th graders) of both countries participated, Serbia got 486 to Ukraine’s 462 (Russia: 512).

    Read More
    • Agree: Cyrano
    • Replies: @AP

    And yet for all that Ukraine seems to be doing not exactly stellar even relative to Serbia, despite the wars in the 1990s and lack of Russian gas subsidies.
     
    It's what you get when the country is run by thieves that are good at what they do. Moreover Ukraine inherited a former comprador rather than a native elite. It's current elite is relatively native and non-Sovok...and under the difficult circumstances (war, loss of natural-resource-rich territory, economic war with former largest trading partner) the country is doing okay.

    Oil-rich Russia wasn't doing so well prior to Putin - this doesn't mean it's people were dumb during that decade.


    Once again, I am not sure that it actually the case. In TIMSS 2007 Mathematics, the one international standardized test that I’m aware of in which comparable demographic groups (8th graders) of both countries participated, Serbia got 486 to Ukraine’s 462
     
    Here it is, page 35. The Serbian kids were nearly a year older than the Ukrainian one (Serbian age 14.9 years to Ukrainian sample's 14.2 years - it looks like Ukrainians were tested at the beginning of 8th grade school years and Serbian kids at the end) and the Serbian sample wasn't representative of the general population, according to the note.

    This limited Serbian sample did better than Norway (estimated average national IQ 100, compared to Serbia's 89)! Ukrainians did about the same as Israelis, who were about the same age as them, and a little better than Romanians who were older than the Ukrainians.

    Overall, Lynn's estimates combined with PISA results probably provide a realistic result. Balkan "Slavs" are at the bottom in both categories.

  130. AP says:
    @Anatoly Karlin
    And yet for all that Ukraine seems to be doing not exactly stellar even relative to Serbia, despite the wars in the 1990s and lack of Russian gas subsidies.

    Even if Ukraine's national IQ is considerably higher than Serbia's* it doesn't seem to be making very good use of it.

    * Once again, I am not sure that it actually the case. In TIMSS 2007 Mathematics, the one international standardized test that I'm aware of in which comparable demographic groups (8th graders) of both countries participated, Serbia got 486 to Ukraine's 462 (Russia: 512).

    And yet for all that Ukraine seems to be doing not exactly stellar even relative to Serbia, despite the wars in the 1990s and lack of Russian gas subsidies.

    It’s what you get when the country is run by thieves that are good at what they do. Moreover Ukraine inherited a former comprador rather than a native elite. It’s current elite is relatively native and non-Sovok…and under the difficult circumstances (war, loss of natural-resource-rich territory, economic war with former largest trading partner) the country is doing okay.

    Oil-rich Russia wasn’t doing so well prior to Putin – this doesn’t mean it’s people were dumb during that decade.

    Once again, I am not sure that it actually the case. In TIMSS 2007 Mathematics, the one international standardized test that I’m aware of in which comparable demographic groups (8th graders) of both countries participated, Serbia got 486 to Ukraine’s 462

    Here it is, page 35. The Serbian kids were nearly a year older than the Ukrainian one (Serbian age 14.9 years to Ukrainian sample’s 14.2 years – it looks like Ukrainians were tested at the beginning of 8th grade school years and Serbian kids at the end) and the Serbian sample wasn’t representative of the general population, according to the note.

    This limited Serbian sample did better than Norway (estimated average national IQ 100, compared to Serbia’s 89)! Ukrainians did about the same as Israelis, who were about the same age as them, and a little better than Romanians who were older than the Ukrainians.

    Overall, Lynn’s estimates combined with PISA results probably provide a realistic result. Balkan “Slavs” are at the bottom in both categories.

    Read More
  131. AP says:
    @Cyrano
    Listen you Ukrainian moron. You are too stupid to have you own country. You gave it try -26 years. That's a new record for you. You and your nation are retards, you need guardianship. Russians have been doing that job for hundreds of years. They are the only ones who have the patience to deal with you. Europe is going to tire of you, US too. You can't take care of yourselves. Why don't you let the Russians be your mentors. They are the only ones who are qualified to do the job.

    Srano, you comically non-Slavic wanna be, review national IQs before making claims of stupidity.

    Also, if you were aware of history, and you are not because you are incapable of such, you would know that Ukraine prospered, relative to other countries, most when it was part of Austria-Hungary. Galicia’s per capita at that time, while much lower than that of Austria itself (or Bohemia), was about the same as that of Slovakia and much higher than that of Russia, not to mention Serbia, Greece, etc.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Cyrano
    I am just curious, when were those IQ tests in Ukraine conducted, before or after Saakashvili got Ukrainian citizenship? Because even an imbecile like he is can raise the average IQ of Ukraine substantially – considering how much stupider yet are the Ukrainians than Saakashvili.

    On the other hand, I suspect those IQ tests in Ukraine were done before 2014 after which 2-3 million Russians left for Russia. If they conducted IQ tests in Ukraine now, they’ll probably be in the 56-60 range as a result of the Russians having left.

  132. Cyrano says:

    Ukrainians are proof that Darwin theory was correct. Ukrainians are the monkeys of the Slavic world, from which all Slavs evolved. Russians were their guardians and tried to get them domesticated, but they didn’t succeed, so they released them into wildlife sanctuary called Ukraine. They don’t seem to be doing too well there either.

    Americans just recently started to visit them frequently. Some people suspect that the Americans are trying to shoot a new sequence in the movie franchise “Planet of the apes” using the Ukrainians as extras. Americans think that it’s going to be a blockbuster, where they are set to make billions and help Hollywood get out of its recent slump.

    According to some leaked reports, few sequences of the movie have already been shot. Apparently starts with the apes rebelling against the human government in an event called “Maidan”. Supposedly is very realistic, the apes go apes**t and they overthrow the human government. Nobody knows how the movie will end, but the animal rights activists are calling the whole enterprise exploitation of wildlife.

    Read More
    • Replies: @AP
    Your people's average IQ again?
    , @Mr. Hack
    So, I'm curious, just where do your own 'Macedonian Slavs' fit into this socio-fantasy, the 'baboons' of the Slavic world? It's apparent that the Slavic ubermensch super group, that's poised to save the Slavic world from its hedonistic and homosexual leanings, are the modern day Russians represented by the guerrillas. The Ukrainians must be the 'howler monkeys' for they're constantly yelling 'foul play' when it comes to the blunt and overbearing guerrilla group? :-)
  133. Cyrano says:
    @AP
    Srano, you comically non-Slavic wanna be, review national IQs before making claims of stupidity.

    Also, if you were aware of history, and you are not because you are incapable of such, you would know that Ukraine prospered, relative to other countries, most when it was part of Austria-Hungary. Galicia's per capita at that time, while much lower than that of Austria itself (or Bohemia), was about the same as that of Slovakia and much higher than that of Russia, not to mention Serbia, Greece, etc.

    I am just curious, when were those IQ tests in Ukraine conducted, before or after Saakashvili got Ukrainian citizenship? Because even an imbecile like he is can raise the average IQ of Ukraine substantially – considering how much stupider yet are the Ukrainians than Saakashvili.

    On the other hand, I suspect those IQ tests in Ukraine were done before 2014 after which 2-3 million Russians left for Russia. If they conducted IQ tests in Ukraine now, they’ll probably be in the 56-60 range as a result of the Russians having left.

    Read More
    • Replies: @AP

    I am just curious, when were those IQ tests in Ukraine conducted, before or after Saakashvili got Ukrainian citizenship
     
    So Saakashvilli single-handedly raised Ukraine's average IQ, 97, to make it 8 points higher than that of Serbia (89)? Poor Serbia!
  134. Art Deco says:
    @Cyrano
    Listen you Ukrainian moron. You are too stupid to have you own country. You gave it try -26 years. That's a new record for you. You and your nation are retards, you need guardianship. Russians have been doing that job for hundreds of years. They are the only ones who have the patience to deal with you. Europe is going to tire of you, US too. You can't take care of yourselves. Why don't you let the Russians be your mentors. They are the only ones who are qualified to do the job.

    Listen you Ukrainian moron.

    This sort of back-and-forth can be amusing if it is (1) deft and (2) doesn’t extend longer than 2 sentences. You’re failing on both counts and it’s a godawful bore.

    Read More
    • Agree: AP
    • Replies: @Cyrano
    Can't you see that it's not me that is driving this lovely conversation. AP and Hack simply can't get enough of me. I don't blame them, it's been a while since they had intelligent conversation with anybody.
  135. AP says:
    @Cyrano
    Ukrainians are proof that Darwin theory was correct. Ukrainians are the monkeys of the Slavic world, from which all Slavs evolved. Russians were their guardians and tried to get them domesticated, but they didn’t succeed, so they released them into wildlife sanctuary called Ukraine. They don’t seem to be doing too well there either.

    Americans just recently started to visit them frequently. Some people suspect that the Americans are trying to shoot a new sequence in the movie franchise “Planet of the apes” using the Ukrainians as extras. Americans think that it’s going to be a blockbuster, where they are set to make billions and help Hollywood get out of its recent slump.

    According to some leaked reports, few sequences of the movie have already been shot. Apparently starts with the apes rebelling against the human government in an event called “Maidan”. Supposedly is very realistic, the apes go apes**t and they overthrow the human government. Nobody knows how the movie will end, but the animal rights activists are calling the whole enterprise exploitation of wildlife.

    Your people’s average IQ again?

    Read More
  136. AP says:
    @Cyrano
    I am just curious, when were those IQ tests in Ukraine conducted, before or after Saakashvili got Ukrainian citizenship? Because even an imbecile like he is can raise the average IQ of Ukraine substantially – considering how much stupider yet are the Ukrainians than Saakashvili.

    On the other hand, I suspect those IQ tests in Ukraine were done before 2014 after which 2-3 million Russians left for Russia. If they conducted IQ tests in Ukraine now, they’ll probably be in the 56-60 range as a result of the Russians having left.

    I am just curious, when were those IQ tests in Ukraine conducted, before or after Saakashvili got Ukrainian citizenship

    So Saakashvilli single-handedly raised Ukraine’s average IQ, 97, to make it 8 points higher than that of Serbia (89)? Poor Serbia!

    Read More
  137. Mr. Hack says:
    @Cyrano
    Ukrainians are proof that Darwin theory was correct. Ukrainians are the monkeys of the Slavic world, from which all Slavs evolved. Russians were their guardians and tried to get them domesticated, but they didn’t succeed, so they released them into wildlife sanctuary called Ukraine. They don’t seem to be doing too well there either.

    Americans just recently started to visit them frequently. Some people suspect that the Americans are trying to shoot a new sequence in the movie franchise “Planet of the apes” using the Ukrainians as extras. Americans think that it’s going to be a blockbuster, where they are set to make billions and help Hollywood get out of its recent slump.

    According to some leaked reports, few sequences of the movie have already been shot. Apparently starts with the apes rebelling against the human government in an event called “Maidan”. Supposedly is very realistic, the apes go apes**t and they overthrow the human government. Nobody knows how the movie will end, but the animal rights activists are calling the whole enterprise exploitation of wildlife.

    So, I’m curious, just where do your own ‘Macedonian Slavs’ fit into this socio-fantasy, the ‘baboons’ of the Slavic world? It’s apparent that the Slavic ubermensch super group, that’s poised to save the Slavic world from its hedonistic and homosexual leanings, are the modern day Russians represented by the guerrillas. The Ukrainians must be the ‘howler monkeys’ for they’re constantly yelling ‘foul play’ when it comes to the blunt and overbearing guerrilla group? :-)

    Read More
    • Replies: @Simpleguest
    I really did not understand what you were trying to say with the above comment.

    Nevertheless, since you mentioned Macedonian Slavs, here is something that will hopefully make things more clear to you.

    Macedonian cca. 1917:
    " I am neither Serb nor Bulgar, I am Macedonian only and I am sick of wars"

    Ukrainian cca 1917:
    "I am neither Polish nor Russian, I am Ukrainian only, and I am sick of wars"

    Best regards.
  138. @Mr. Hack
    So, I'm curious, just where do your own 'Macedonian Slavs' fit into this socio-fantasy, the 'baboons' of the Slavic world? It's apparent that the Slavic ubermensch super group, that's poised to save the Slavic world from its hedonistic and homosexual leanings, are the modern day Russians represented by the guerrillas. The Ukrainians must be the 'howler monkeys' for they're constantly yelling 'foul play' when it comes to the blunt and overbearing guerrilla group? :-)

    I really did not understand what you were trying to say with the above comment.

    Nevertheless, since you mentioned Macedonian Slavs, here is something that will hopefully make things more clear to you.

    Macedonian cca. 1917:
    ” I am neither Serb nor Bulgar, I am Macedonian only and I am sick of wars”

    Ukrainian cca 1917:
    “I am neither Polish nor Russian, I am Ukrainian only, and I am sick of wars”

    Best regards.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    For some reason, I was under the impression that Cyrano (the prolific Ukrainaphobe) was of Macedonian Slavic background? Perhaps, he should authoritatively clarify his exact lineage, as he's so cavalier in lambasting other lineages, especially the Ukrainian one?
  139. Mr. Hack says:
    @Simpleguest
    I really did not understand what you were trying to say with the above comment.

    Nevertheless, since you mentioned Macedonian Slavs, here is something that will hopefully make things more clear to you.

    Macedonian cca. 1917:
    " I am neither Serb nor Bulgar, I am Macedonian only and I am sick of wars"

    Ukrainian cca 1917:
    "I am neither Polish nor Russian, I am Ukrainian only, and I am sick of wars"

    Best regards.

    For some reason, I was under the impression that Cyrano (the prolific Ukrainaphobe) was of Macedonian Slavic background? Perhaps, he should authoritatively clarify his exact lineage, as he’s so cavalier in lambasting other lineages, especially the Ukrainian one?

    Read More
  140. Cyrano says:
    @Art Deco
    Listen you Ukrainian moron.

    This sort of back-and-forth can be amusing if it is (1) deft and (2) doesn't extend longer than 2 sentences. You're failing on both counts and it's a godawful bore.

    Can’t you see that it’s not me that is driving this lovely conversation. AP and Hack simply can’t get enough of me. I don’t blame them, it’s been a while since they had intelligent conversation with anybody.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Art Deco
    Can’t you see that it’s not me that is driving this lovely conversation.

    I see you flashing your middle finger, but accessorizing that with excess verbiage.
    , @AP

    it’s been a while since they had intelligent conversation
     
    Clueless as usual, Srano. The idea of a Balkan "Slav" discussing intelligence of different peoples even though yours is the lowest, on average, in Europe (and you had previously called Poles dumb), and pan-Slavism (you are less Slav, than an African-America is white) was too funny to ignore. You then starting saying something negative about peasants, which is also very funny coming from a Balkan "Slav."
  141. Art Deco says:
    @Cyrano
    Can't you see that it's not me that is driving this lovely conversation. AP and Hack simply can't get enough of me. I don't blame them, it's been a while since they had intelligent conversation with anybody.

    Can’t you see that it’s not me that is driving this lovely conversation.

    I see you flashing your middle finger, but accessorizing that with excess verbiage.

    Read More
  142. AP says:
    @Cyrano
    Can't you see that it's not me that is driving this lovely conversation. AP and Hack simply can't get enough of me. I don't blame them, it's been a while since they had intelligent conversation with anybody.

    it’s been a while since they had intelligent conversation

    Clueless as usual, Srano. The idea of a Balkan “Slav” discussing intelligence of different peoples even though yours is the lowest, on average, in Europe (and you had previously called Poles dumb), and pan-Slavism (you are less Slav, than an African-America is white) was too funny to ignore. You then starting saying something negative about peasants, which is also very funny coming from a Balkan “Slav.”

    Read More
    • Replies: @Cyrano
    This is as intelligent as your thick Ukrainian scull can handle. I have to be mindful of my audience, because if I start firing on all neurons, your head is going to spin, you cretin. Where is the evidence of Ukrainian intelligence? Do you realize that those 2 words don't belong in a same sentence. It's an oxymoron - with you being both the ox and the moron.
  143. Cyrano says:
    @AP

    it’s been a while since they had intelligent conversation
     
    Clueless as usual, Srano. The idea of a Balkan "Slav" discussing intelligence of different peoples even though yours is the lowest, on average, in Europe (and you had previously called Poles dumb), and pan-Slavism (you are less Slav, than an African-America is white) was too funny to ignore. You then starting saying something negative about peasants, which is also very funny coming from a Balkan "Slav."

    This is as intelligent as your thick Ukrainian scull can handle. I have to be mindful of my audience, because if I start firing on all neurons, your head is going to spin, you cretin. Where is the evidence of Ukrainian intelligence? Do you realize that those 2 words don’t belong in a same sentence. It’s an oxymoron – with you being both the ox and the moron.

    Read More
    • Replies: @AP
    You are the gift that keeps on giving, member of an "intelligent" nation from the deep Balkans, pan-"Slavist" who is actually an Albanian, or Turk, or whatever :-)
  144. AP says:
    @Cyrano
    This is as intelligent as your thick Ukrainian scull can handle. I have to be mindful of my audience, because if I start firing on all neurons, your head is going to spin, you cretin. Where is the evidence of Ukrainian intelligence? Do you realize that those 2 words don't belong in a same sentence. It's an oxymoron - with you being both the ox and the moron.

    You are the gift that keeps on giving, member of an “intelligent” nation from the deep Balkans, pan-”Slavist” who is actually an Albanian, or Turk, or whatever :-)

    Read More
    • Replies: @Cyrano
    I heard this past week that Americans are selling you coal at twice the price. If that’s not a sign of intelligence – I don’t know what is. You know what, I don’t really give a s**t about your stupid nation, it bothers me that you are smearing the reputation of all Slavs. People are going to look at you and assume that all Slavs are stupid like you. It’s not like that. You are really truly morons that are lowering the ratings for all the Slavs. We are better than that.
  145. Cyrano says:
    @AP
    You are the gift that keeps on giving, member of an "intelligent" nation from the deep Balkans, pan-"Slavist" who is actually an Albanian, or Turk, or whatever :-)

    I heard this past week that Americans are selling you coal at twice the price. If that’s not a sign of intelligence – I don’t know what is. You know what, I don’t really give a s**t about your stupid nation, it bothers me that you are smearing the reputation of all Slavs. People are going to look at you and assume that all Slavs are stupid like you. It’s not like that. You are really truly morons that are lowering the ratings for all the Slavs. We are better than that.

    Read More
    • Replies: @AP

    I don’t really give a s**t about your stupid nation,
     
    Dozens of your posts prove otherwise, Srano.

    it bothers me that you are smearing the reputation of all Slavs.
     
    Why should you be so concerned about people who have almost nothing to do with you, Albanian, Turkish or whatever non-Slav you are?

    You are really truly morons

     

    There it is again, a guy from the lowest IQ region in Europe calling some nation with much higher average IQ "morons." Pure gold.

    Next you'll be calling someone else "peasants." Oh - you've already done that :-)

    How about foreign lackeys? Will that be next, you whose ancestors served the Turks for so many centuries? :-)
  146. AP says:
    @Cyrano
    I heard this past week that Americans are selling you coal at twice the price. If that’s not a sign of intelligence – I don’t know what is. You know what, I don’t really give a s**t about your stupid nation, it bothers me that you are smearing the reputation of all Slavs. People are going to look at you and assume that all Slavs are stupid like you. It’s not like that. You are really truly morons that are lowering the ratings for all the Slavs. We are better than that.

    I don’t really give a s**t about your stupid nation,

    Dozens of your posts prove otherwise, Srano.

    it bothers me that you are smearing the reputation of all Slavs.

    Why should you be so concerned about people who have almost nothing to do with you, Albanian, Turkish or whatever non-Slav you are?

    You are really truly morons

    There it is again, a guy from the lowest IQ region in Europe calling some nation with much higher average IQ “morons.” Pure gold.

    Next you’ll be calling someone else “peasants.” Oh – you’ve already done that :-)

    How about foreign lackeys? Will that be next, you whose ancestors served the Turks for so many centuries? :-)

    Read More
    • Agree: Mr. Hack
    • Replies: @Medvedev

    There it is again, a guy from the lowest IQ region in Europe calling some nation with much higher average IQ “morons.” Pure gold.
     
    Citing average nation IQ to prove that you are right and the other person, hence, should be dumb is a low blow. Although, Cyrano descended to insults towards Ukrainians as well.

    I knew Mexicans (avg. IQ 88) and Serbs (supposed IQ of 89). From my personal anecdotal experience it seems implausible that Serbian IQ is so low.
    If you look at math and computer science, results of International Olympiad in Informatics
    http://stats.ioinformatics.org/results/2015
    Ukraine 3 silver medals, 1 bronze
    Serbia 3 silver medals, 1 bronze
    Pretty neat for a country with 7 million people. You can check any year (2010-2016) and Serbia (and Ukraine) is doing quiet well.
    And where is Mexico with population of 125 million and supposedly similar IQ?
  147. Cyrano says:

    There is a reason why Stalin slaughtered you like cattle – it’s because you are ones. Give me one great historical example where Ukrainians made all Slavs proud of them. When you crawled before the Germans, or now? What are you going to buy from the Americans next? Wheat? You really have the genes for business. What have you ever accomplished as a nation, that can be used as a proof of Ukrainian IQ? Or should we file that one under “missing evidence”?

    Listen I can see that you are obsessed with me and my intelligence – although the conversations that I am having with you are hardly a proof of that, but that’s your fault, not mine. Now I am just going to ask you nicely to f**k off, go bother someone else, because I had enough of your BS.

    Read More
    • Replies: @AP

    a reason why Stalin slaughtered you like cattle
     
    One non-Slav loves another non-Slav. No surprise.

    Your glee at millions of dead Slavs reflects that you are not one and never will be, despite your protests.

    When you crawled before the Germans
     
    You are too predictable. "Crawling before" the Germans for 2 years or so is bad according to you. Yet your people crawled before the Turks for about 500 years. Much more honorable, right? :-)

    Let's recap:

    * Srano, who calls another nation stupid, belongs to the people who have the lowest IQ in Europe

    * Srano, who complains about crawling before Germans, belongs to a nation who crawled before Turks for most of its existence

    *Srano makes fun of peasants or being peasants, yet belongs the most deeply peasanty region in Europe

    are obsessed with me and my intelligence
     
    Evidence (see examples above) shows that projection is your thing. Every time you write about someone else, you are merely describing yourself. If I recall, you were initially obsessed with Polish intelligence before switching to being obsessed with Ukrainian intelligence. While, as we have seen, belonging to a nation with an average IQ much lower than that of those two nations.
  148. Cyrano says:

    This is the last one, I promise.

    Signs of insanity – the motto under which the business deal of the century was done between Ukraine and US:

    Why look like a dumbass and get your own coal from Donbass, when they can sell you coal from Pennsylvania and soak your blood like they are from Transylvania.

    Read More
    • Replies: @AP
    Ukraine pays twice as much for coal in order not to send money to people it's fighting with, yet still manages economic growth under such conditions. When Serbia was at war, in contrast, its economy was declining despite presumably not overpaying for anything.
  149. AP says:
    @Cyrano
    There is a reason why Stalin slaughtered you like cattle - it's because you are ones. Give me one great historical example where Ukrainians made all Slavs proud of them. When you crawled before the Germans, or now? What are you going to buy from the Americans next? Wheat? You really have the genes for business. What have you ever accomplished as a nation, that can be used as a proof of Ukrainian IQ? Or should we file that one under "missing evidence"?

    Listen I can see that you are obsessed with me and my intelligence - although the conversations that I am having with you are hardly a proof of that, but that's your fault, not mine. Now I am just going to ask you nicely to f**k off, go bother someone else, because I had enough of your BS.

    a reason why Stalin slaughtered you like cattle

    One non-Slav loves another non-Slav. No surprise.

    Your glee at millions of dead Slavs reflects that you are not one and never will be, despite your protests.

    When you crawled before the Germans

    You are too predictable. “Crawling before” the Germans for 2 years or so is bad according to you. Yet your people crawled before the Turks for about 500 years. Much more honorable, right? :-)

    Let’s recap:

    * Srano, who calls another nation stupid, belongs to the people who have the lowest IQ in Europe

    * Srano, who complains about crawling before Germans, belongs to a nation who crawled before Turks for most of its existence

    *Srano makes fun of peasants or being peasants, yet belongs the most deeply peasanty region in Europe

    are obsessed with me and my intelligence

    Evidence (see examples above) shows that projection is your thing. Every time you write about someone else, you are merely describing yourself. If I recall, you were initially obsessed with Polish intelligence before switching to being obsessed with Ukrainian intelligence. While, as we have seen, belonging to a nation with an average IQ much lower than that of those two nations.

    Read More
  150. AP says:
    @Cyrano
    This is the last one, I promise.

    Signs of insanity – the motto under which the business deal of the century was done between Ukraine and US:

    Why look like a dumbass and get your own coal from Donbass, when they can sell you coal from Pennsylvania and soak your blood like they are from Transylvania.

    Ukraine pays twice as much for coal in order not to send money to people it’s fighting with, yet still manages economic growth under such conditions. When Serbia was at war, in contrast, its economy was declining despite presumably not overpaying for anything.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Cyrano

    Ukraine pays twice as much for coal in order not to send money to people it’s fighting
     
    Helluva logic. I call that scorched brain policy. Why do something smart from which your “enemies” can benefit, when by being stupid neither you, nor your “enemies” benefit, only the Transylvanians.
  151. Cyrano says:
    @AP
    Ukraine pays twice as much for coal in order not to send money to people it's fighting with, yet still manages economic growth under such conditions. When Serbia was at war, in contrast, its economy was declining despite presumably not overpaying for anything.

    Ukraine pays twice as much for coal in order not to send money to people it’s fighting

    Helluva logic. I call that scorched brain policy. Why do something smart from which your “enemies” can benefit, when by being stupid neither you, nor your “enemies” benefit, only the Transylvanians.

    Read More
    • Replies: @AP
    You are so predictable. Earlier you wrote : "This is the last one, I promise."

    You are too dumb to even predict your own actions.
  152. AP says:
    @Cyrano

    Ukraine pays twice as much for coal in order not to send money to people it’s fighting
     
    Helluva logic. I call that scorched brain policy. Why do something smart from which your “enemies” can benefit, when by being stupid neither you, nor your “enemies” benefit, only the Transylvanians.

    You are so predictable. Earlier you wrote : “This is the last one, I promise.”

    You are too dumb to even predict your own actions.

    Read More
  153. Medvedev says:
    @AP

    I don’t really give a s**t about your stupid nation,
     
    Dozens of your posts prove otherwise, Srano.

    it bothers me that you are smearing the reputation of all Slavs.
     
    Why should you be so concerned about people who have almost nothing to do with you, Albanian, Turkish or whatever non-Slav you are?

    You are really truly morons

     

    There it is again, a guy from the lowest IQ region in Europe calling some nation with much higher average IQ "morons." Pure gold.

    Next you'll be calling someone else "peasants." Oh - you've already done that :-)

    How about foreign lackeys? Will that be next, you whose ancestors served the Turks for so many centuries? :-)

    There it is again, a guy from the lowest IQ region in Europe calling some nation with much higher average IQ “morons.” Pure gold.

    Citing average nation IQ to prove that you are right and the other person, hence, should be dumb is a low blow. Although, Cyrano descended to insults towards Ukrainians as well.

    I knew Mexicans (avg. IQ 88) and Serbs (supposed IQ of 89). From my personal anecdotal experience it seems implausible that Serbian IQ is so low.
    If you look at math and computer science, results of International Olympiad in Informatics

    http://stats.ioinformatics.org/results/2015

    Ukraine 3 silver medals, 1 bronze
    Serbia 3 silver medals, 1 bronze
    Pretty neat for a country with 7 million people. You can check any year (2010-2016) and Serbia (and Ukraine) is doing quiet well.
    And where is Mexico with population of 125 million and supposedly similar IQ?

    Read More
    • Replies: @AP

    Citing average nation IQ to prove that you are right and the other person, hence, should be dumb is a low blow
     
    I was rather highlighting the absurdity of a Balkan Slav making comments about Ukrainians in general being dumb when his own people, in general, are much dumber. Srano is using the internet and knows a little bit, so his IQ is much higher than the Balkan "Slav" average, probably 105 or so.

    I knew Mexicans (avg. IQ 88) and Serbs (supposed IQ of 89). From my personal anecdotal experience it seems implausible that Serbian IQ is so low.
     
    Anecdotal evidence doesn't mean much overall, however. (I personally know a very smart, legitimately successful African American, for example - but the average for her people is well-known).

    If you look at math and computer science, results of International Olympiad in Informatics
     
    Olympiad results are interesting data points but not as relevant as national IQ estimates or national test scores. America dominates the Olympics but is its population physically the healthiest in the world?

    On the PISA. Balkan Slav students provided the worst scores in Europe, worse than Hispanic Americans (Montenegrins were even worse than African Americans, and people from Mexico). This corroborates Lynn's estimate. Two different data sets with similar, matching results - a powerful argument.


    And where is Mexico with population of 125 million and supposedly similar IQ?
     
    Mexico has Spanish heritage. Spain was known for its artists, writers, etc. (and soldiers), but not for technological prowess. Spain also got no medals in that Olympiad. Spain's estimated IQ is 98; its PISA score was much higher than that of Balkan "Slavs."
  154. AP says:
    @Medvedev

    There it is again, a guy from the lowest IQ region in Europe calling some nation with much higher average IQ “morons.” Pure gold.
     
    Citing average nation IQ to prove that you are right and the other person, hence, should be dumb is a low blow. Although, Cyrano descended to insults towards Ukrainians as well.

    I knew Mexicans (avg. IQ 88) and Serbs (supposed IQ of 89). From my personal anecdotal experience it seems implausible that Serbian IQ is so low.
    If you look at math and computer science, results of International Olympiad in Informatics
    http://stats.ioinformatics.org/results/2015
    Ukraine 3 silver medals, 1 bronze
    Serbia 3 silver medals, 1 bronze
    Pretty neat for a country with 7 million people. You can check any year (2010-2016) and Serbia (and Ukraine) is doing quiet well.
    And where is Mexico with population of 125 million and supposedly similar IQ?

    Citing average nation IQ to prove that you are right and the other person, hence, should be dumb is a low blow

    I was rather highlighting the absurdity of a Balkan Slav making comments about Ukrainians in general being dumb when his own people, in general, are much dumber. Srano is using the internet and knows a little bit, so his IQ is much higher than the Balkan “Slav” average, probably 105 or so.

    I knew Mexicans (avg. IQ 88) and Serbs (supposed IQ of 89). From my personal anecdotal experience it seems implausible that Serbian IQ is so low.

    Anecdotal evidence doesn’t mean much overall, however. (I personally know a very smart, legitimately successful African American, for example – but the average for her people is well-known).

    If you look at math and computer science, results of International Olympiad in Informatics

    Olympiad results are interesting data points but not as relevant as national IQ estimates or national test scores. America dominates the Olympics but is its population physically the healthiest in the world?

    On the PISA. Balkan Slav students provided the worst scores in Europe, worse than Hispanic Americans (Montenegrins were even worse than African Americans, and people from Mexico). This corroborates Lynn’s estimate. Two different data sets with similar, matching results – a powerful argument.

    And where is Mexico with population of 125 million and supposedly similar IQ?

    Mexico has Spanish heritage. Spain was known for its artists, writers, etc. (and soldiers), but not for technological prowess. Spain also got no medals in that Olympiad. Spain’s estimated IQ is 98; its PISA score was much higher than that of Balkan “Slavs.”

    Read More
    • Replies: @Simpleguest
    "I was rather highlighting the absurdity of a Balkan Slav making comments about Ukrainians
    in general being dumb when his own people, in general, are much dumber."

    First of all, I don't have a dog in this fight,
    Rather then citing various IQ tests or genetic research, let's take a look at the recent history of both.

    Balkan Slavs: they lived in one unified country, not particularly developed, taken as a whole, but still the largest and most powerful country on the Balkans, until it disintegrated.
    The disintegration led to troubled and violent times for most of the constituents of the former country.

    Eastern Slavs: lived in one unified country which was not particularly developed, taken as a whole, but it was one of the two world superpowers, and as such guarantor of the world peace ever since the Second World War, until it, too, disintegrated.
    The disintegration led to troubled violent times for most of the constituents of the former country.

    I do not see much of a difference.

  155. @AP

    Citing average nation IQ to prove that you are right and the other person, hence, should be dumb is a low blow
     
    I was rather highlighting the absurdity of a Balkan Slav making comments about Ukrainians in general being dumb when his own people, in general, are much dumber. Srano is using the internet and knows a little bit, so his IQ is much higher than the Balkan "Slav" average, probably 105 or so.

    I knew Mexicans (avg. IQ 88) and Serbs (supposed IQ of 89). From my personal anecdotal experience it seems implausible that Serbian IQ is so low.
     
    Anecdotal evidence doesn't mean much overall, however. (I personally know a very smart, legitimately successful African American, for example - but the average for her people is well-known).

    If you look at math and computer science, results of International Olympiad in Informatics
     
    Olympiad results are interesting data points but not as relevant as national IQ estimates or national test scores. America dominates the Olympics but is its population physically the healthiest in the world?

    On the PISA. Balkan Slav students provided the worst scores in Europe, worse than Hispanic Americans (Montenegrins were even worse than African Americans, and people from Mexico). This corroborates Lynn's estimate. Two different data sets with similar, matching results - a powerful argument.


    And where is Mexico with population of 125 million and supposedly similar IQ?
     
    Mexico has Spanish heritage. Spain was known for its artists, writers, etc. (and soldiers), but not for technological prowess. Spain also got no medals in that Olympiad. Spain's estimated IQ is 98; its PISA score was much higher than that of Balkan "Slavs."

    “I was rather highlighting the absurdity of a Balkan Slav making comments about Ukrainians
    in general being dumb when his own people, in general, are much dumber.”

    First of all, I don’t have a dog in this fight,
    Rather then citing various IQ tests or genetic research, let’s take a look at the recent history of both.

    Balkan Slavs: they lived in one unified country, not particularly developed, taken as a whole, but still the largest and most powerful country on the Balkans, until it disintegrated.
    The disintegration led to troubled and violent times for most of the constituents of the former country.

    Eastern Slavs: lived in one unified country which was not particularly developed, taken as a whole, but it was one of the two world superpowers, and as such guarantor of the world peace ever since the Second World War, until it, too, disintegrated.
    The disintegration led to troubled violent times for most of the constituents of the former country.

    I do not see much of a difference.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    You here that Cyrano? One reader at this site feels that the Balkan Slavs are just as dumb as the Ukrainians! He doesn't see much of a difference and makes an interesting analogy. Perhaps, his analogy could be extended even further, for when I read the daily news, I'm often bewildered at the stupidity that I see evolving around the whole planet. Dumb, dumber, dumbest. This dialogue got me interested in IQ tests and intelligence and I came across this interview with the second smartest guy on the planet, at least in the world of IQ testing. He doesn't have anything really flattering to say about himself and doesn't attribute high IQ scores with making many smart life decisions:

    Most of the things which might frustrate me about other people also frustrate me about myself. The brains we’ve evolved are good at some things (including convincing us that we have a complete and an accurate view of reality even when we don’t) but have serious limitations. I’m pretty aware of those limitations within myself (and have a saying – “The world’s smartest rabbit is still a rabbit”). We’re all limited and defined by being evolved creatures made of meat.
     

    Rick Rosner has worked as a stripper, roller-skating waiter, bouncer, and nude model.
    To add a little more human nature interest to this discussion, I highly recommend to anyone who's interested in this topic to read the whole interview: http://www.businessinsider.com/interview-with-rick-rosner-2014-11
    , @AP
    The Slavic USSR was much more developed than Bulgaria or the non Slovenian, non-Croatian parts of Yugoslavia.

    In 1981 literacy was 89% in Macedonia and 90% in Serbia and Montenegro.

    In the Russian, Belarussian and Ukrainian SSRs, over 99% were literate by the 1960s.

    Infant mortality rate was 45 in Macedonia, 25 in the USSR in 1987 and 1986, respectively.

    USSR dominated the Eurasian landmass. Yugoslavia had about the same population as Romania.
  156. Mr. Hack says:
    @Simpleguest
    "I was rather highlighting the absurdity of a Balkan Slav making comments about Ukrainians
    in general being dumb when his own people, in general, are much dumber."

    First of all, I don't have a dog in this fight,
    Rather then citing various IQ tests or genetic research, let's take a look at the recent history of both.

    Balkan Slavs: they lived in one unified country, not particularly developed, taken as a whole, but still the largest and most powerful country on the Balkans, until it disintegrated.
    The disintegration led to troubled and violent times for most of the constituents of the former country.

    Eastern Slavs: lived in one unified country which was not particularly developed, taken as a whole, but it was one of the two world superpowers, and as such guarantor of the world peace ever since the Second World War, until it, too, disintegrated.
    The disintegration led to troubled violent times for most of the constituents of the former country.

    I do not see much of a difference.

    You here that Cyrano? One reader at this site feels that the Balkan Slavs are just as dumb as the Ukrainians! He doesn’t see much of a difference and makes an interesting analogy. Perhaps, his analogy could be extended even further, for when I read the daily news, I’m often bewildered at the stupidity that I see evolving around the whole planet. Dumb, dumber, dumbest. This dialogue got me interested in IQ tests and intelligence and I came across this interview with the second smartest guy on the planet, at least in the world of IQ testing. He doesn’t have anything really flattering to say about himself and doesn’t attribute high IQ scores with making many smart life decisions:

    Most of the things which might frustrate me about other people also frustrate me about myself. The brains we’ve evolved are good at some things (including convincing us that we have a complete and an accurate view of reality even when we don’t) but have serious limitations. I’m pretty aware of those limitations within myself (and have a saying – “The world’s smartest rabbit is still a rabbit”). We’re all limited and defined by being evolved creatures made of meat.

    Rick Rosner has worked as a stripper, roller-skating waiter, bouncer, and nude model.
    To add a little more human nature interest to this discussion, I highly recommend to anyone who’s interested in this topic to read the whole interview: http://www.businessinsider.com/interview-with-rick-rosner-2014-11

    Read More
    • Replies: @Cyrano
    You know what my theory is about stupidity? Stupidity is evil. And those 2 values are interchangeable – one always produces the other. In the case of Nazi Germany – the starting point was the evil and it produced tons of stupidity, culminating in the invasion of USSR – because they were untermensh and don’t know how to defend themselves. Good one.

    In the case of Ukraine, the starting point was stupidity and it produced a lot of evil, like when they burned those people in that building in Odessa. It made my blood boil. They were taking pictures on their cell phones and cheering like it was a football match. That’s not a nation that I can admire. I am sorry.

    I hate stupidity in any form anywhere. In my nation, as well as in others. Nothing good ever comes from it. The good thing is if the starting point is the stupidity – more can be done, people can get better informed so they don’t do something evil. If the starting point is the evil – nothing much can be done there, until it runs out of steam and collapses in piles of stupidity. That’s my contribution to the field of philosophy for the day.
  157. Cyrano says:
    @Mr. Hack
    You here that Cyrano? One reader at this site feels that the Balkan Slavs are just as dumb as the Ukrainians! He doesn't see much of a difference and makes an interesting analogy. Perhaps, his analogy could be extended even further, for when I read the daily news, I'm often bewildered at the stupidity that I see evolving around the whole planet. Dumb, dumber, dumbest. This dialogue got me interested in IQ tests and intelligence and I came across this interview with the second smartest guy on the planet, at least in the world of IQ testing. He doesn't have anything really flattering to say about himself and doesn't attribute high IQ scores with making many smart life decisions:

    Most of the things which might frustrate me about other people also frustrate me about myself. The brains we’ve evolved are good at some things (including convincing us that we have a complete and an accurate view of reality even when we don’t) but have serious limitations. I’m pretty aware of those limitations within myself (and have a saying – “The world’s smartest rabbit is still a rabbit”). We’re all limited and defined by being evolved creatures made of meat.
     

    Rick Rosner has worked as a stripper, roller-skating waiter, bouncer, and nude model.
    To add a little more human nature interest to this discussion, I highly recommend to anyone who's interested in this topic to read the whole interview: http://www.businessinsider.com/interview-with-rick-rosner-2014-11

    You know what my theory is about stupidity? Stupidity is evil. And those 2 values are interchangeable – one always produces the other. In the case of Nazi Germany – the starting point was the evil and it produced tons of stupidity, culminating in the invasion of USSR – because they were untermensh and don’t know how to defend themselves. Good one.

    In the case of Ukraine, the starting point was stupidity and it produced a lot of evil, like when they burned those people in that building in Odessa. It made my blood boil. They were taking pictures on their cell phones and cheering like it was a football match. That’s not a nation that I can admire. I am sorry.

    I hate stupidity in any form anywhere. In my nation, as well as in others. Nothing good ever comes from it. The good thing is if the starting point is the stupidity – more can be done, people can get better informed so they don’t do something evil. If the starting point is the evil – nothing much can be done there, until it runs out of steam and collapses in piles of stupidity. That’s my contribution to the field of philosophy for the day.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Mr. Hack

    the starting point was the evil and it produced tons of stupidity, culminating in the invasion of USSR – because they were untermensh and don’t know how to defend themselves. Good one.
     
    Kind of sounds analogous to Putin's invasion of Donbas, using his paid proxys to foment war in Ukraine. Isn't what he's trying to do much like Hitler's attempt to tame the Soviet 'untermensch' during WWII? Unfortunately for him, the Ukrainians have been able to 'defend themselves' and they're getting stronger day by day. What has he gained in the meantime? What does he think that he'll attain in the future?...
  158. Mr. Hack says:
    @Cyrano
    You know what my theory is about stupidity? Stupidity is evil. And those 2 values are interchangeable – one always produces the other. In the case of Nazi Germany – the starting point was the evil and it produced tons of stupidity, culminating in the invasion of USSR – because they were untermensh and don’t know how to defend themselves. Good one.

    In the case of Ukraine, the starting point was stupidity and it produced a lot of evil, like when they burned those people in that building in Odessa. It made my blood boil. They were taking pictures on their cell phones and cheering like it was a football match. That’s not a nation that I can admire. I am sorry.

    I hate stupidity in any form anywhere. In my nation, as well as in others. Nothing good ever comes from it. The good thing is if the starting point is the stupidity – more can be done, people can get better informed so they don’t do something evil. If the starting point is the evil – nothing much can be done there, until it runs out of steam and collapses in piles of stupidity. That’s my contribution to the field of philosophy for the day.

    the starting point was the evil and it produced tons of stupidity, culminating in the invasion of USSR – because they were untermensh and don’t know how to defend themselves. Good one.

    Kind of sounds analogous to Putin’s invasion of Donbas, using his paid proxys to foment war in Ukraine. Isn’t what he’s trying to do much like Hitler’s attempt to tame the Soviet ‘untermensch’ during WWII? Unfortunately for him, the Ukrainians have been able to ‘defend themselves’ and they’re getting stronger day by day. What has he gained in the meantime? What does he think that he’ll attain in the future?…

    Read More
  159. AP says:
    @Simpleguest
    "I was rather highlighting the absurdity of a Balkan Slav making comments about Ukrainians
    in general being dumb when his own people, in general, are much dumber."

    First of all, I don't have a dog in this fight,
    Rather then citing various IQ tests or genetic research, let's take a look at the recent history of both.

    Balkan Slavs: they lived in one unified country, not particularly developed, taken as a whole, but still the largest and most powerful country on the Balkans, until it disintegrated.
    The disintegration led to troubled and violent times for most of the constituents of the former country.

    Eastern Slavs: lived in one unified country which was not particularly developed, taken as a whole, but it was one of the two world superpowers, and as such guarantor of the world peace ever since the Second World War, until it, too, disintegrated.
    The disintegration led to troubled violent times for most of the constituents of the former country.

    I do not see much of a difference.

    The Slavic USSR was much more developed than Bulgaria or the non Slovenian, non-Croatian parts of Yugoslavia.

    In 1981 literacy was 89% in Macedonia and 90% in Serbia and Montenegro.

    In the Russian, Belarussian and Ukrainian SSRs, over 99% were literate by the 1960s.

    Infant mortality rate was 45 in Macedonia, 25 in the USSR in 1987 and 1986, respectively.

    USSR dominated the Eurasian landmass. Yugoslavia had about the same population as Romania.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Simpleguest
    It begs the question, then, why on earth did you dismantle the Soviet Union? Were you bored?
  160. @AP
    The Slavic USSR was much more developed than Bulgaria or the non Slovenian, non-Croatian parts of Yugoslavia.

    In 1981 literacy was 89% in Macedonia and 90% in Serbia and Montenegro.

    In the Russian, Belarussian and Ukrainian SSRs, over 99% were literate by the 1960s.

    Infant mortality rate was 45 in Macedonia, 25 in the USSR in 1987 and 1986, respectively.

    USSR dominated the Eurasian landmass. Yugoslavia had about the same population as Romania.

    It begs the question, then, why on earth did you dismantle the Soviet Union? Were you bored?

    Read More
    • Replies: @AP
    Being better than the backward Balkans wasn't good enough. USSR lost pace with the West and was falling further behind. Plus, many of the nationalities didn't want to be in it, bankrupt ideology, etc.
  161. AP says:
    @Simpleguest
    It begs the question, then, why on earth did you dismantle the Soviet Union? Were you bored?

    Being better than the backward Balkans wasn’t good enough. USSR lost pace with the West and was falling further behind. Plus, many of the nationalities didn’t want to be in it, bankrupt ideology, etc.

    Read More

Comments are closed.

Subscribe to All Anatoly Karlin Comments via RSS
PastClassics
Are elite university admissions based on meritocracy and diversity as claimed?
A simple remedy for income stagnation
Confederate Flag Day, State Capitol, Raleigh, N.C. -- March 3, 2007
The major media overlooked Communist spies and Madoff’s fraud. What are they missing today?
The evidence is clear — but often ignored