The Unz Review - Mobile
A Collection of Interesting, Important, and Controversial Perspectives Largely Excluded from the American Mainstream Media
 Russian Reaction BlogTeasers
Europe's Rednecks
Email This Page to Someone

 Remember My Information



=>
Search Text Case Sensitive  Exact Words  Include Comments

Harvard University maintains an online database of “implicit association tests” that purport to show your subconscious outlook on things. In the race test, you are presented with a series of pictures of Whites and Blacks, which you have to racially identify; these are interspersed with adjectives (joyous, anger, cherish, horror), which you simultaneously have to identify as “good” or “bad.”

Bias in favor of whites is taken to occur when test takers categorize positive words paired with white faces, and negative words with black faces, faster than they categorize positive words with black faces or negative words with white faces.

Here is a map of the US from the Washington Post. As you can guess, red implies more implicit racism. (RCAFDM made some more comprehensive analyses in 2014).

iat-usa

Now Tom Stafford has created a similar map for Europe.

(Although Russia is not included, it does appear on a supplementary graph – no figure given, but its practically next to Belarus, so I added it as a circle in its color).

iat-europe-edited

Common observation that Europe’s rednecks are in the east is confirmed again. Might explain why they’re the biggest proponents of border fences, even though no Syrian is going to be settling in Hungary longterm anytime soon.

Also chalk one up for the Hajnal Line – even though that streak of Balkan tolerance is pretty strange (sure, your average Serb doesn’t have any substantive experiences with Blacks, but same goes for your average Czech or Lithuanian).

 
• Category: Race/Ethnicity • Tags: Eastern Europe, Racism 
86 Comments to "Europe's Rednecks"
Commenters to Ignore...to FollowEndorsed Only
    []
  1. I just did that test with white and black faces/positively and negatively connotated words, and got “geringe bis gar keine automatische Bevorzugung von einer der beiden Gruppen” (low to no automatic preference for one of both groups”) as a result (which only 17% percent of those taking the test get, about 70% have some preference for whites).
    Maybe I f***ed the test up, I made some mistakes and am somewhat slow at this…I didn’t get any error message though that there wasn’t enough data. Or I’m much less “racist” than I thought I am.
    In any case, I’m not sure if those tests are really meaningful or reliable.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anon
    The indoctrination of the Germans was a success.
    , @ryan
    If your question is whether the score on the IAT has any ability to predict future biased behavior the answer so far as I know is no, it does not.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
    AgreeDisagreeLOLTroll
    These buttons register your public Agreement, Disagreement, Troll, or LOL with the selected comment. They are ONLY available to recent, frequent commenters who have saved their Name+Email using the 'Remember My Information' checkbox, and may also ONLY be used once per hour.
    Sharing Comment via Twitter
    /akarlin/europes-rednecks/#comment-1858708
    More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  2. Anon says: • Disclaimer
    @German_reader
    I just did that test with white and black faces/positively and negatively connotated words, and got "geringe bis gar keine automatische Bevorzugung von einer der beiden Gruppen" (low to no automatic preference for one of both groups") as a result (which only 17% percent of those taking the test get, about 70% have some preference for whites).
    Maybe I f***ed the test up, I made some mistakes and am somewhat slow at this...I didn't get any error message though that there wasn't enough data. Or I'm much less "racist" than I thought I am.
    In any case, I'm not sure if those tests are really meaningful or reliable.

    The indoctrination of the Germans was a success.

    Read More
  3. reiner Tor says: • Website

    Ivanka is half Czech…

    By the way, Hungarians are barely more racist than the Germans. I think it’s quite plausible. The difference is the government. Orbán is based, Merkel is cucked, the peoples are merely going along. It’s not like Hungarians or the Germans would be rioting if their respective governments had the opposite policies.

    Read More
    • Replies: @German_reader
    Well, you know what Lenin is supposed to have said about Germans "If they're going to take a train station by storm, they'll buy a ticket before". Conformism, belief in authority and respect for rules, no matter how silly, are prime national characteristics.
  4. Even assuming those tests “work”, I’m not sure how to interpret the results though. Portugal and nowadays Italy as well have a visible presence of blacks…that could mean, people become “more racist” when exposed to real-life diversity. But the reverse doesn’t seem to apply to those Eastern European countries which get high “racist” results, but have very few blacks.
    And the results for ex-Yugoslavia are also quite strange.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Boris N

    Portugal and nowadays Italy as well have a visible presence of blacks…that could mean, people become “more racist” when exposed to real-life diversity. But the reverse doesn’t seem to apply to those Eastern European countries which get high “racist” results, but have very few blacks.
     
    Both the scenarios could work. People may be overoptimistic to diversity due to propaganda, and then face the bitter truth; or they may be very parochial and isolated and rarely see strangers of other races/countries, yet this exactly makes them more xenophobic. Also the modern media makes some difference: you even do not need to live among the POC to understand their possible impact on the community, race riots and tensions over America and Western Europe are verily enlightening.

    And the results for ex-Yugoslavia are also quite strange.
     
    That may have been a result of their pool in those countries being very selective, like the test was done among very progressive Serbian academics from a Soros university or things like that. I doubt that rural parochial Serbs are that progressive. Especially after having had noticeable Gypsy communities there.
  5. The trend of Europeans selecting ugly non-whites(she is half though) as their beauty pageants winners is continuing unabated.

    http://www.croatiaweek.com/photo-miss-universe-croatia-2017-crownedcrowned/

    1. The runner ups are more attractive.
    2. This girl couldn’t even when homecoming or fair queen in my midwest mostly german catholic community. She wouldn’t even make the top half of most attractive people in my class.

    Read More
    • Replies: @JW Bell
    She's not hot. There's hot black women and she's not even close.
    , @Boris N
    The winner is neither extremely ugly nor extremely beautiful for me, though one of the reasons might be the other pageants are boringly beautiful as it's very usual with beauty pageants, while she is something of a novelty. Anyway I'm not much of a fan of the Balkan type, as well it's always quite difficult to choose a winner, as pageants are too boring in their polished beauty, like beauty clones, rarely I saw somebody staggering in such contests, you may easily find better "catchy" examples on the streets than there.
  6. @reiner Tor
    Ivanka is half Czech...

    By the way, Hungarians are barely more racist than the Germans. I think it's quite plausible. The difference is the government. Orbán is based, Merkel is cucked, the peoples are merely going along. It's not like Hungarians or the Germans would be rioting if their respective governments had the opposite policies.

    Well, you know what Lenin is supposed to have said about Germans “If they’re going to take a train station by storm, they’ll buy a ticket before”. Conformism, belief in authority and respect for rules, no matter how silly, are prime national characteristics.

    Read More
    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    Yet there were four revolutions, 1848, 1918, 1953 and 1989. In Hungary there were only three revolutions (I wouldn't count 1989/90, since it was made possible by the ruling party voluntarily giving up control), all three against rulers perceived to be foreigners or more or less foreign puppets, and two or three big rebellions against foreign (Habsburg) rule (1606 and 1703-11, and possibly Thököly in the 1680s), yet Hungarians have often been perceived as inherently rebellious.

    On the other hand, Hungarians often think that we are inherently sheeple, accepting the most blatant violations of our rights, corruption, etc. So who knows.
  7. Randal says:

    The interesting one apart from the clear east/west divide for me is the higher western Mediterranean figures. That refutes the suggestion that it’s simplistically a matter of exposure and familiarity.

    Speaking for my own country (UK) I know from personal experience that we have been massively propagandised for a couple of generations now to regard any expression or even internal experience of “racist” feeling to be socially unacceptable, and to regard people of other races as inherently “nice” and as “victims” (the highest compliment in the societies of the modern US sphere), and that surely must strongly influence such a subjective test. I suspect the same is true of the Nordics.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
    I remember a poll querying Brits on their perceptions of various ethno-demographic groups.

    Young white men scored at the bottom (8%), well below Black Caribbean men (19%); young white women were more disliked (23%) than young Pakistani men (28%).

    https://yougov.co.uk/news/2015/12/14/prejudice-data/

    What a cucked self-hating country. No wonder Children of Men was produced there. Really quite sad.
    , @Erik Sieven
    I can´t believe that propaganda works that way. The mind is no simple machine. There should be a lot of adverse effects.
    , @LondonBob
    We are very heavily propagandised.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zLuGwQyLyE

    Of course Precious in Come Fly With Me made a nice change from the usual ludicrous portrayals of blacks.
  8. @Randal
    The interesting one apart from the clear east/west divide for me is the higher western Mediterranean figures. That refutes the suggestion that it's simplistically a matter of exposure and familiarity.

    Speaking for my own country (UK) I know from personal experience that we have been massively propagandised for a couple of generations now to regard any expression or even internal experience of "racist" feeling to be socially unacceptable, and to regard people of other races as inherently "nice" and as "victims" (the highest compliment in the societies of the modern US sphere), and that surely must strongly influence such a subjective test. I suspect the same is true of the Nordics.

    I remember a poll querying Brits on their perceptions of various ethno-demographic groups.

    Young white men scored at the bottom (8%), well below Black Caribbean men (19%); young white women were more disliked (23%) than young Pakistani men (28%).

    https://yougov.co.uk/news/2015/12/14/prejudice-data/

    What a cucked self-hating country. No wonder Children of Men was produced there. Really quite sad.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Randal
    Thanks mate, I needed cheering up about my country's situation. :-)

    In fairness we were the core location for the globalist elites for a long time, and our rulers are as much American as British. It's hardly surprising we have been ruled in other interests than our own. Such is the price of Empire, as the Americans are finding out.
    , @Jake
    I think Modern English culture was born, or, if you prefer, formed, so that it invariably would desire its own suicide. I think the source is older than the Modern world - I think it is part and parcel of Germanic culture.

    The English form reached and influenced the entire world, because of the size and wealth of the British Empire. Now, it the American form, WASP, that is leading the world. Death wish for whites, and non-whites learn to see whites as easy prey.

    The masses are led; people are sheep. The fault lies with the Movers and Shakers of the Anglosphere and thus with the culture they have ruled and molded.

    That is the reason it is pissing in the wind to try to save civilization by saving some assumed 'conservative' WASP culture.
    , @Erik Sieven
    thats a fascinating study. I think the last three columns are useless, but the rest is very informative. For example people think that young black woman are as violent, or in other words manly, as young white men.
    , @fnn
    In any major (and some minor ) tourist spot in the world you're likely to find a drunken Englishman ready to start a fight. Adopting Murrayesque analysis, not surprising that class division in the UK seems to be intensifying rather than receding.. Not true of the Irish I've met (except for Irish-Americans in the US.)
  9. Randal says:
    @Anatoly Karlin
    I remember a poll querying Brits on their perceptions of various ethno-demographic groups.

    Young white men scored at the bottom (8%), well below Black Caribbean men (19%); young white women were more disliked (23%) than young Pakistani men (28%).

    https://yougov.co.uk/news/2015/12/14/prejudice-data/

    What a cucked self-hating country. No wonder Children of Men was produced there. Really quite sad.

    Thanks mate, I needed cheering up about my country’s situation. :-)

    In fairness we were the core location for the globalist elites for a long time, and our rulers are as much American as British. It’s hardly surprising we have been ruled in other interests than our own. Such is the price of Empire, as the Americans are finding out.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Seamus Padraig

    Such is the price of Empire, as the Americans are finding out.
     
    So sad, and so true.
    , @Jake
    When England was 'healthy,' its Elites absolutely despised the vast majority of the natives of the British Isles. All that has changed is that the whites ruled by English Elites finally gave up and started hating themselves as the Brit Elites had desired.
  10. anon says: • Disclaimer

    Eastern Europe already saw the worst of “migrants” from the East. AFAIK, Mongols, Turks, Tatars and whatnot went only as far as Vienna. It’s much easier to love the savages of Asia when you claim Gypsy beggars are “Bulgarians” or “Romanians”. FFS the Brownies in front of Swedish supermarkets are Indians who failed to integrate over 5 centuries. And if there was mass access to guns in Eastern Europe, they too would organize and try to get Vienna.

    The problem was compounded by political correctness during Russian-imposed “socialism”. It was obvious for 70 years that Asians are the worst kind of migrants we could have received, but it was illegal to call a Gyppo a Gyppo, and the defense was focused on blather about the neutron bomb. Women would be raped, children – robbed, but the “Communist” party was concerned with imperialism and neocolonialism.

    If you love the Gyppos of India or Syria, you should take them home. Don’t expect us to love them.

    Read More
  11. JW Bell says: • Website
    @blahbahblah
    The trend of Europeans selecting ugly non-whites(she is half though) as their beauty pageants winners is continuing unabated.

    http://www.croatiaweek.com/photo-miss-universe-croatia-2017-crownedcrowned/

    1. The runner ups are more attractive.
    2. This girl couldn't even when homecoming or fair queen in my midwest mostly german catholic community. She wouldn't even make the top half of most attractive people in my class.

    She’s not hot. There’s hot black women and she’s not even close.

    Read More
  12. Anon 2 says:

    Actually, Poland, France, and Germany are very close,
    and all of them are less “racist” than liberal California
    or many other U.S. states

    Read More
    • Replies: @RadicalCenter
    Yes, you are right; anti-white racism is strong and growing here in California.
  13. @Randal
    Thanks mate, I needed cheering up about my country's situation. :-)

    In fairness we were the core location for the globalist elites for a long time, and our rulers are as much American as British. It's hardly surprising we have been ruled in other interests than our own. Such is the price of Empire, as the Americans are finding out.

    Such is the price of Empire, as the Americans are finding out.

    So sad, and so true.

    Read More
  14. Jake says:
    @Anatoly Karlin
    I remember a poll querying Brits on their perceptions of various ethno-demographic groups.

    Young white men scored at the bottom (8%), well below Black Caribbean men (19%); young white women were more disliked (23%) than young Pakistani men (28%).

    https://yougov.co.uk/news/2015/12/14/prejudice-data/

    What a cucked self-hating country. No wonder Children of Men was produced there. Really quite sad.

    I think Modern English culture was born, or, if you prefer, formed, so that it invariably would desire its own suicide. I think the source is older than the Modern world – I think it is part and parcel of Germanic culture.

    The English form reached and influenced the entire world, because of the size and wealth of the British Empire. Now, it the American form, WASP, that is leading the world. Death wish for whites, and non-whites learn to see whites as easy prey.

    The masses are led; people are sheep. The fault lies with the Movers and Shakers of the Anglosphere and thus with the culture they have ruled and molded.

    That is the reason it is pissing in the wind to try to save civilization by saving some assumed ‘conservative’ WASP culture.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Boris N

    I think Modern English culture was born, or, if you prefer, formed, so that it invariably would desire its own suicide. I think the source is older than the Modern world – I think it is part and parcel of Germanic culture.
     
    I doubt that it was that old. The English saw little compassion to the out-groups right up to the 20th century, when something had happened that changed everything (Hitler and WWII?). I cannot see the English fighting the Zulu or the Americans fighting the Comanches suicidal.
  15. Jake says:
    @Randal
    Thanks mate, I needed cheering up about my country's situation. :-)

    In fairness we were the core location for the globalist elites for a long time, and our rulers are as much American as British. It's hardly surprising we have been ruled in other interests than our own. Such is the price of Empire, as the Americans are finding out.

    When England was ‘healthy,’ its Elites absolutely despised the vast majority of the natives of the British Isles. All that has changed is that the whites ruled by English Elites finally gave up and started hating themselves as the Brit Elites had desired.

    Read More
  16. I question the validity of this test as a scientfic indicator of “racism”: there is no chance in hell former Yugoslavians could be this “progressive”. The whole premise doesn’t make much sense to me: negro faces can be pretty scary/ugly looking, hence the willingness of people to associate negative concepts with them.

    No “racism” involved, but people WILL subconciously respond to beauty, and objectively speaking, black people have less of it.

    PS:It’s very annoying to see Crimea portrayed as Ukrainian on a map. How long would it take for you to edit it?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Jaakko Raipala
    Perhaps the propaganda in Yugoslavia portrayed carefully chosen friendly Africans (or just children). Tito did try to make a big deal out of his own brand of Third-Worldism and it wouldn't be surprising if the "friendships" with various African countries were reflected in domestic propaganda.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-Aligned_Movement

    It looks more like a map of past propaganda regimes than anything real to me. Finland, by the way, goes partly to the ex-Soviet bloc thanks to the unusual pro-Soviet regime where the media was in the hands of communists and American movies and such were limited. I still remember the abrupt transition when the regime switched from serving the USSR to serving Germany and America, that's when the "anti-racist" zealotry started and the TV filled with American movies and their black brain surgeons.

    , @German_reader
    "negro faces can be pretty scary/ugly looking"

    The black faces in that test don't look really scary or ugly imo. They also look distinctly American black in my opinion (that is they don't look quite like those really black guys fresh off the boat at Lampedusa, but at least somewhat lighter).
    I too have my doubts about that test, the results seem quite strange.
    , @Boris N
    Just to be fair there can be found a lot of scary-looking and ugly criminals among Whites. And this guy has a father and a mother, and most likely he looks after his father, which means some women, at least his mother, consider such types attractive.
  17. @Felix Keverich
    I question the validity of this test as a scientfic indicator of "racism": there is no chance in hell former Yugoslavians could be this "progressive". The whole premise doesn't make much sense to me: negro faces can be pretty scary/ugly looking, hence the willingness of people to associate negative concepts with them.

    http://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/negroid_1282.jpg

    No "racism" involved, but people WILL subconciously respond to beauty, and objectively speaking, black people have less of it.

    PS:It's very annoying to see Crimea portrayed as Ukrainian on a map. How long would it take for you to edit it?

    Perhaps the propaganda in Yugoslavia portrayed carefully chosen friendly Africans (or just children). Tito did try to make a big deal out of his own brand of Third-Worldism and it wouldn’t be surprising if the “friendships” with various African countries were reflected in domestic propaganda.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-Aligned_Movement

    It looks more like a map of past propaganda regimes than anything real to me. Finland, by the way, goes partly to the ex-Soviet bloc thanks to the unusual pro-Soviet regime where the media was in the hands of communists and American movies and such were limited. I still remember the abrupt transition when the regime switched from serving the USSR to serving Germany and America, that’s when the “anti-racist” zealotry started and the TV filled with American movies and their black brain surgeons.

    Read More
    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    In Hungary there was relatively strong anti-racism propaganda about how American police are violent to blacks and how they live in poverty and are incarcerated at very high rates etc. Essentially the structural racism arguments were used in anti-American propaganda.

    This was fairly effective in that in Hungary so-called racists are often convinced that blacks are much better than Gypsies. (Like often Jobbik supporters hold these views. Btw Jobbik moved quite a bit to the left, they parade around a local Gypsy Jobbik leader etc.)

    Also Hungarian hard nationalists often think that it's "Americans" who are against them (e.g. when an American ambassador lectures us how bad racism and anti-Semitism are), so they think it's a good argument to point out the Indian wars and slavery or American "imperialism" in general. (When in fact the same American leftists who criticize Hungarian "racism" often criticize the same Indian wars and slavery etc.)
  18. @Anatoly Karlin
    I remember a poll querying Brits on their perceptions of various ethno-demographic groups.

    Young white men scored at the bottom (8%), well below Black Caribbean men (19%); young white women were more disliked (23%) than young Pakistani men (28%).

    https://yougov.co.uk/news/2015/12/14/prejudice-data/

    What a cucked self-hating country. No wonder Children of Men was produced there. Really quite sad.

    thats a fascinating study. I think the last three columns are useless, but the rest is very informative. For example people think that young black woman are as violent, or in other words manly, as young white men.

    Read More
  19. @Randal
    The interesting one apart from the clear east/west divide for me is the higher western Mediterranean figures. That refutes the suggestion that it's simplistically a matter of exposure and familiarity.

    Speaking for my own country (UK) I know from personal experience that we have been massively propagandised for a couple of generations now to regard any expression or even internal experience of "racist" feeling to be socially unacceptable, and to regard people of other races as inherently "nice" and as "victims" (the highest compliment in the societies of the modern US sphere), and that surely must strongly influence such a subjective test. I suspect the same is true of the Nordics.

    I can´t believe that propaganda works that way. The mind is no simple machine. There should be a lot of adverse effects.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Bill B.

    I can´t believe that propaganda works that way. The mind is no simple machine. There should be a lot of adverse effects.
     
    Don't forget to factor in the difference between what people say to pollsters, what they think they believe and what they truly believe.

    And of course the polls are only as honest as the pollsters:

    (At 30 seconds.)

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0ZZJXw4MTA
    , @Randal

    I can´t believe that propaganda works that way. The mind is no simple machine. There should be a lot of adverse effects.
     
    Works in what way?

    It's entirely possible (probable even) that the propaganda has had all sorts of adverse and collateral effects as well, but those are not being measured in this study. I agree with you about the complexity of the human mind and the likelihood of unintended consequences from any propaganda campaign (though that doesn't mean propaganda never achieves its intended objective - clearly like all advertising it works on some levels), but I don't see why it should be doubted, prima facie, that the consistent demonization of "racism" and favourable portrayal of other races we have had in almost all licensed and other mainstream media outlets and entertainment products for decades now would produce the kind of society in which a test such as the one described would be strongly biased towards the "less racist" results.
  20. Boris N says:

    Took two test, got a “slight preference for light-skinned” and a “strong preference for Whites”, as expected. Even though I played a right-wing racist a little while I was answering their questionnaire, I’m quite pleased and agree with the result. Racist or not, I wouldn’t like turning our whole planet into shithole Afro-Arabo-India, neither I’d prefer to live among a Black majority. Though sometimes Blacks of a certain kind (Morgan Freeman, alright) seem to me slightly sympathetic.

    Read More
  21. reiner Tor says: • Website
    @Jaakko Raipala
    Perhaps the propaganda in Yugoslavia portrayed carefully chosen friendly Africans (or just children). Tito did try to make a big deal out of his own brand of Third-Worldism and it wouldn't be surprising if the "friendships" with various African countries were reflected in domestic propaganda.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-Aligned_Movement

    It looks more like a map of past propaganda regimes than anything real to me. Finland, by the way, goes partly to the ex-Soviet bloc thanks to the unusual pro-Soviet regime where the media was in the hands of communists and American movies and such were limited. I still remember the abrupt transition when the regime switched from serving the USSR to serving Germany and America, that's when the "anti-racist" zealotry started and the TV filled with American movies and their black brain surgeons.

    In Hungary there was relatively strong anti-racism propaganda about how American police are violent to blacks and how they live in poverty and are incarcerated at very high rates etc. Essentially the structural racism arguments were used in anti-American propaganda.

    This was fairly effective in that in Hungary so-called racists are often convinced that blacks are much better than Gypsies. (Like often Jobbik supporters hold these views. Btw Jobbik moved quite a bit to the left, they parade around a local Gypsy Jobbik leader etc.)

    Also Hungarian hard nationalists often think that it’s “Americans” who are against them (e.g. when an American ambassador lectures us how bad racism and anti-Semitism are), so they think it’s a good argument to point out the Indian wars and slavery or American “imperialism” in general. (When in fact the same American leftists who criticize Hungarian “racism” often criticize the same Indian wars and slavery etc.)

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
    Also common approach with patriot/normie Russians (i.e. arguments of the "but what about KKK/lynchings/police brutality) who are however themselves, by American standards, strongly casually racist.
    , @Jaakko Raipala
    Yes. I was too young to experience the propaganda elsewhere but it was all over TV. We had a lot of East German stuff that we mostly considered boring but watched anyway while waiting for the few hours of Hollywood each week. (We didn't have commercial TV channels until the 1990s and the state TV was completely staffed with Reds.)

    We were given the narrative of oppressed blacks of America and so on but the idea that we should import Africans and attack people who oppose the idea as racists simply did not exist until American influence flooded in in the 1990s. The Russians of course wanted us to chase "fascists" but, ironically, some of the American channels of influence that Moscow wanted shut down have turned out to be big promoters of immigration, LBGT and so on.

    By the way, we have a different type of gypsies in my old hometown. There is a horse race track nearby and it has created a small settled gypsy community, with their own farms dedicated entirely to breeding race horses. Gypsies of course eschew most professions but horses are an exception and horse breeding is perhaps the only way to gain respect among gypsies with hard work.

    Gypsies are perfectly capable of dropping the parasitical lifestyle and becoming patriotic, hard working redneck types if they choose so. They're not smart - the gypsy kids spent only the first few years with us at school before they moved to the "special" track with Down syndrome kids and such - but they're perfectly capable of understanding what they need to do to fit in and actually our settled gypsies wanted the roaming gypsies to stay out as they realized that they'd be the ones left behind as suspects in any mischief.

    They're the exception though and gypsies have become more dysfunctional with modernity as "their" professions like horses and music have gotten marginalized by cars and the entertainment industry.
    , @German_reader

    In Hungary there was relatively strong anti-racism propaganda
     
    They also had that in East Germany; e.g. they had a big campaign for Angela Davis and made her a honorary citizen of Madgeburg. I think she even visited the GDR a few times. Also of course lots of solidarity with revolutionary leftists in Mocambique etc. Still, East Germans are more "racist" than West Germans.
    Agree with you about how stupid it is when Europeans bring up slavery or the Indian wars against the US...that's pretty ignorant about what the US today is and stands for.
    , @Hector_St_Clare
    This was fairly effective in that in Hungary so-called racists are often convinced that blacks are much better than Gypsies. (Like often Jobbik supporters hold these views. Btw Jobbik moved quite a bit to the left, they parade around a local Gypsy Jobbik leader etc.)

    I mean, in terms of social dysfunction African Americans are in fact a lot better off than Gypsies. My friend trots out this statistic that educational attainment among East European Roma isn't just below African Americans today, it's below African Americans in the South during the Jim Crow era.

    BTW, Kristina Morvai is also married to a Jewish guy right, in spite of her anti-Jewish comments about the "tiny circumcised you know what"?

    Anyway all of this suggests to me that ethnocentric immigration policy doesn't all boil down to 'racism', and that opposition to one ethnic minority doesn't necessarily translate into opposition towards others. But then again we should already have known that.

    It's also interesting that the most 'racist' East European country is the Czech Republic, even though it's in some regards the most 'progressive' (lowest Gini index, least religious, IIRC the most prosperous). Their ethnic nationalist party is also much smaller/weaker than the ones in Hungary, Poland or the Slovakia (or even the nations further south, I guess). But maybe that's because the Social Democrats, Communists and Conservatives are already relatively open to anti-mass-migration views, so people don't feel a need to vote for Okamura.
    , @Hector_St_Clare
    For the record, as an American, I do think the Eastern Europeans who hold ethnocentric views while criticizing America for being racist are mostly correct here. I think that African-Americans are treated quite poorly by American society, whereas the Roma's and e.g. British Pakistanis' problems are largely self-inflicted, and I also think the 'ethnic homeland' model of a society, while perfectly appropriate for Poland or Hungary or the Czechs, isn't appropriate for America. (Black Americans lived in this country before most of the ancestors of today's white people did, and the Native Americans were here before both). This is one reason why I would probably support ethnonationalists if I lived in Europe, but don't support them here in America.
  22. Boris N says:
    @blahbahblah
    The trend of Europeans selecting ugly non-whites(she is half though) as their beauty pageants winners is continuing unabated.

    http://www.croatiaweek.com/photo-miss-universe-croatia-2017-crownedcrowned/

    1. The runner ups are more attractive.
    2. This girl couldn't even when homecoming or fair queen in my midwest mostly german catholic community. She wouldn't even make the top half of most attractive people in my class.

    The winner is neither extremely ugly nor extremely beautiful for me, though one of the reasons might be the other pageants are boringly beautiful as it’s very usual with beauty pageants, while she is something of a novelty. Anyway I’m not much of a fan of the Balkan type, as well it’s always quite difficult to choose a winner, as pageants are too boring in their polished beauty, like beauty clones, rarely I saw somebody staggering in such contests, you may easily find better “catchy” examples on the streets than there.

    Read More
  23. Boris N says:
    @German_reader
    Even assuming those tests "work", I'm not sure how to interpret the results though. Portugal and nowadays Italy as well have a visible presence of blacks...that could mean, people become "more racist" when exposed to real-life diversity. But the reverse doesn't seem to apply to those Eastern European countries which get high "racist" results, but have very few blacks.
    And the results for ex-Yugoslavia are also quite strange.

    Portugal and nowadays Italy as well have a visible presence of blacks…that could mean, people become “more racist” when exposed to real-life diversity. But the reverse doesn’t seem to apply to those Eastern European countries which get high “racist” results, but have very few blacks.

    Both the scenarios could work. People may be overoptimistic to diversity due to propaganda, and then face the bitter truth; or they may be very parochial and isolated and rarely see strangers of other races/countries, yet this exactly makes them more xenophobic. Also the modern media makes some difference: you even do not need to live among the POC to understand their possible impact on the community, race riots and tensions over America and Western Europe are verily enlightening.

    And the results for ex-Yugoslavia are also quite strange.

    That may have been a result of their pool in those countries being very selective, like the test was done among very progressive Serbian academics from a Soros university or things like that. I doubt that rural parochial Serbs are that progressive. Especially after having had noticeable Gypsy communities there.

    Read More
    • Agree: reiner Tor
    • Replies: @reiner Tor

    I doubt that rural parochial Serbs are that progressive. Especially after having had noticeable Gypsy communities there.
     
    I have talked to a lot of Hungarian "racists" who hated Gypsies (with whom they had a lot of personal experience) but insisted that Pakistani Muslims and US blacks were way better. This was, actually, an explanation for them why Western Europeans were so "idealistic" or "pro-Gypsy", because - so the reasoning went - they had only experience with "good, hardworking" nonwhites "with low criminality" such as Muslims and blacks, and not with "criminal" Gypsies.

    Since the migration crisis a lot of anti-migrant websites have been created, and a lot of news about the disaster of migration in Western Europe have found their way into the nationalist Hungarian media (press, websites, the one or two cable TV channels), so these attitudes are changing. But I'm sure Hungarian "racists" were mostly anti-Gypsy and not much anti-Muslim or anti-Black until fairly recently, perhaps until 2015.

    , @German_reader

    race riots and tensions over America and Western Europe are verily enlightening
     
    I don't think so, even today a lot of people in Western Europe certainly buy the official narrative (which is utterly dominant in mainstream media) that race relations in the US are bad only because of white racism. Certainly that's how it is presented in German media, even supposedly conservative ones like Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung. If blacks riot in the US, it's presented as justified anger at white cops brutally killing totally innocent blacks. You never hear about facts that might paint a rather different picture (like American blacks' disprpoprtionate criminality, or the kind of truly vicious crimes committed by black criminals that seem to be at least not totally uncommon).
    Similar with the riots in London and France...supposedly all due only to frustration about racism and social exclusion.
    We need to be realistic...the people reading and commenting here aren't typical.
    , @Philip Owen
    During the UK referendum to leave the EU, which turned on immigration, the areas voting Remain had high immigrant populations. The Leavers, had very low levels of immigration. The contrast between Cardiff (first mosque in UK) and Blaenau Gwent (strong emigration) for example.
  24. reiner Tor says: • Website
    @German_reader
    Well, you know what Lenin is supposed to have said about Germans "If they're going to take a train station by storm, they'll buy a ticket before". Conformism, belief in authority and respect for rules, no matter how silly, are prime national characteristics.

    Yet there were four revolutions, 1848, 1918, 1953 and 1989. In Hungary there were only three revolutions (I wouldn’t count 1989/90, since it was made possible by the ruling party voluntarily giving up control), all three against rulers perceived to be foreigners or more or less foreign puppets, and two or three big rebellions against foreign (Habsburg) rule (1606 and 1703-11, and possibly Thököly in the 1680s), yet Hungarians have often been perceived as inherently rebellious.

    On the other hand, Hungarians often think that we are inherently sheeple, accepting the most blatant violations of our rights, corruption, etc. So who knows.

    Read More
  25. Boris N says:
    @Jake
    I think Modern English culture was born, or, if you prefer, formed, so that it invariably would desire its own suicide. I think the source is older than the Modern world - I think it is part and parcel of Germanic culture.

    The English form reached and influenced the entire world, because of the size and wealth of the British Empire. Now, it the American form, WASP, that is leading the world. Death wish for whites, and non-whites learn to see whites as easy prey.

    The masses are led; people are sheep. The fault lies with the Movers and Shakers of the Anglosphere and thus with the culture they have ruled and molded.

    That is the reason it is pissing in the wind to try to save civilization by saving some assumed 'conservative' WASP culture.

    I think Modern English culture was born, or, if you prefer, formed, so that it invariably would desire its own suicide. I think the source is older than the Modern world – I think it is part and parcel of Germanic culture.

    I doubt that it was that old. The English saw little compassion to the out-groups right up to the 20th century, when something had happened that changed everything (Hitler and WWII?). I cannot see the English fighting the Zulu or the Americans fighting the Comanches suicidal.

    Read More
  26. @reiner Tor
    In Hungary there was relatively strong anti-racism propaganda about how American police are violent to blacks and how they live in poverty and are incarcerated at very high rates etc. Essentially the structural racism arguments were used in anti-American propaganda.

    This was fairly effective in that in Hungary so-called racists are often convinced that blacks are much better than Gypsies. (Like often Jobbik supporters hold these views. Btw Jobbik moved quite a bit to the left, they parade around a local Gypsy Jobbik leader etc.)

    Also Hungarian hard nationalists often think that it's "Americans" who are against them (e.g. when an American ambassador lectures us how bad racism and anti-Semitism are), so they think it's a good argument to point out the Indian wars and slavery or American "imperialism" in general. (When in fact the same American leftists who criticize Hungarian "racism" often criticize the same Indian wars and slavery etc.)

    Also common approach with patriot/normie Russians (i.e. arguments of the “but what about KKK/lynchings/police brutality) who are however themselves, by American standards, strongly casually racist.

    Read More
    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    Which means that whites (and this includes not only Massachusetts whites, but also Hungarians or even Russians) who have little personal experience with a specific nonwhite group (e.g. Massachusetts whites have little experience with blacks in Ferguson) will be easily convinced by the media that in case of conflicts of this specific nonwhite group with whites living in close proximity to them the problem is the evil racism of those whites.

    The difference seems to be that when it comes to personal experience, Massachusetts whites choose to flee vs. Hungarians/Russians might start to entertain "racist" views. It could be a difference in the quantity and quality of the propaganda effort used to convince them, though.

    , @Seamus Padraig
    "And you are still lynching negroes!"
    , @fnn
    What happens when you tell them its the opposite, and blacks hunting down and killing whites is far more common. With police, there's no evidence cops are more likely to kill blacks than whites, circumstances being approximately equal.
  27. Boris N says:

    Also chalk one up for the Hajnal Line

    Anatoly, what is the connection between marrying in your early 20s and being more racist, and marrying in your late 20s and being less racist?

    Read More
    • Replies: @reiner Tor

    the connection between marrying your cousins in your early 20s and being more racist, and marrying an unrelated spouse in your late 20s and being less racist
     
    FTFY
  28. reiner Tor says: • Website
    @Boris N

    Also chalk one up for the Hajnal Line
     
    Anatoly, what is the connection between marrying in your early 20s and being more racist, and marrying in your late 20s and being less racist?

    the connection between marrying your cousins in your early 20s and being more racist, and marrying an unrelated spouse in your late 20s and being less racist

    FTFY

    Read More
    • Replies: @Boris N
    So you even failed to have known that the Hajnal line is nothing about cousin marriages. What else could be discussed if people even fail to read the Wikipedia article about the Hajnal line, not to say the original and its critics?

    Or didn't you know that cousin marriages were and are strongly forbidden by the Orthodox Church, so it was simply impossible? The Orthodox Church even elaborated the highly detailed rules of the levels of relatedness and who could marry whom.
  29. reiner Tor says: • Website
    @Boris N

    Portugal and nowadays Italy as well have a visible presence of blacks…that could mean, people become “more racist” when exposed to real-life diversity. But the reverse doesn’t seem to apply to those Eastern European countries which get high “racist” results, but have very few blacks.
     
    Both the scenarios could work. People may be overoptimistic to diversity due to propaganda, and then face the bitter truth; or they may be very parochial and isolated and rarely see strangers of other races/countries, yet this exactly makes them more xenophobic. Also the modern media makes some difference: you even do not need to live among the POC to understand their possible impact on the community, race riots and tensions over America and Western Europe are verily enlightening.

    And the results for ex-Yugoslavia are also quite strange.
     
    That may have been a result of their pool in those countries being very selective, like the test was done among very progressive Serbian academics from a Soros university or things like that. I doubt that rural parochial Serbs are that progressive. Especially after having had noticeable Gypsy communities there.

    I doubt that rural parochial Serbs are that progressive. Especially after having had noticeable Gypsy communities there.

    I have talked to a lot of Hungarian “racists” who hated Gypsies (with whom they had a lot of personal experience) but insisted that Pakistani Muslims and US blacks were way better. This was, actually, an explanation for them why Western Europeans were so “idealistic” or “pro-Gypsy”, because – so the reasoning went – they had only experience with “good, hardworking” nonwhites “with low criminality” such as Muslims and blacks, and not with “criminal” Gypsies.

    Since the migration crisis a lot of anti-migrant websites have been created, and a lot of news about the disaster of migration in Western Europe have found their way into the nationalist Hungarian media (press, websites, the one or two cable TV channels), so these attitudes are changing. But I’m sure Hungarian “racists” were mostly anti-Gypsy and not much anti-Muslim or anti-Black until fairly recently, perhaps until 2015.

    Read More
    • Replies: @reiner Tor

    Since the migration crisis a lot of anti-migrant websites have been created, and a lot of news about the disaster of migration in Western Europe have found their way into the nationalist Hungarian media (press, websites, the one or two cable TV channels),
     
    Besides, since 2010 a lot of Hungarians went to Western Europe, so the personal experience (or experience by personal acquaintances) side is changing.
    , @German_reader
    I find that pretty strange. From my central European perspective gypsies, while definitely a burden, aren't a threat in the same way many Muslims and Africans are. They con you and steal from you, but they don't harbour fantasies of taking over and destroying the West like quite a few Muslims do. I also haven't read that much about gypsies committing the type of vicious crimes (gang rapes etc.) one often reads about being committed by Somalis, Afghans etc. But maybe that happens more in Hungary. Probably all a matter of perspective.
  30. reiner Tor says: • Website
    @Anatoly Karlin
    Also common approach with patriot/normie Russians (i.e. arguments of the "but what about KKK/lynchings/police brutality) who are however themselves, by American standards, strongly casually racist.

    Which means that whites (and this includes not only Massachusetts whites, but also Hungarians or even Russians) who have little personal experience with a specific nonwhite group (e.g. Massachusetts whites have little experience with blacks in Ferguson) will be easily convinced by the media that in case of conflicts of this specific nonwhite group with whites living in close proximity to them the problem is the evil racism of those whites.

    The difference seems to be that when it comes to personal experience, Massachusetts whites choose to flee vs. Hungarians/Russians might start to entertain “racist” views. It could be a difference in the quantity and quality of the propaganda effort used to convince them, though.

    Read More
    • Replies: @snorlax
    Oh, the Hungarians and Russians would flee too. That is, in fact, just what the Russian former residents of the North Caucasus and Central Asia have done. Blacks and Muslims aren't as inclined towards petty crime as Gypsies, but they more than make up for that with their extreme levels of violence.

    Storytime: On a trip to London (sigh…), as I walk past a Gypsy panhandler, he sticks out his leg to trip and, presumably, rob me, but only succeeds in making me stumble a bit. He shouts after me: "You kick my leg! Now you give me money!"
  31. reiner Tor says: • Website
    @reiner Tor

    I doubt that rural parochial Serbs are that progressive. Especially after having had noticeable Gypsy communities there.
     
    I have talked to a lot of Hungarian "racists" who hated Gypsies (with whom they had a lot of personal experience) but insisted that Pakistani Muslims and US blacks were way better. This was, actually, an explanation for them why Western Europeans were so "idealistic" or "pro-Gypsy", because - so the reasoning went - they had only experience with "good, hardworking" nonwhites "with low criminality" such as Muslims and blacks, and not with "criminal" Gypsies.

    Since the migration crisis a lot of anti-migrant websites have been created, and a lot of news about the disaster of migration in Western Europe have found their way into the nationalist Hungarian media (press, websites, the one or two cable TV channels), so these attitudes are changing. But I'm sure Hungarian "racists" were mostly anti-Gypsy and not much anti-Muslim or anti-Black until fairly recently, perhaps until 2015.

    Since the migration crisis a lot of anti-migrant websites have been created, and a lot of news about the disaster of migration in Western Europe have found their way into the nationalist Hungarian media (press, websites, the one or two cable TV channels),

    Besides, since 2010 a lot of Hungarians went to Western Europe, so the personal experience (or experience by personal acquaintances) side is changing.

    Read More
  32. Bill B. says:
    @Erik Sieven
    I can´t believe that propaganda works that way. The mind is no simple machine. There should be a lot of adverse effects.

    I can´t believe that propaganda works that way. The mind is no simple machine. There should be a lot of adverse effects.

    Don’t forget to factor in the difference between what people say to pollsters, what they think they believe and what they truly believe.

    And of course the polls are only as honest as the pollsters:

    (At 30 seconds.)

    Read More
  33. Randal says:
    @Erik Sieven
    I can´t believe that propaganda works that way. The mind is no simple machine. There should be a lot of adverse effects.

    I can´t believe that propaganda works that way. The mind is no simple machine. There should be a lot of adverse effects.

    Works in what way?

    It’s entirely possible (probable even) that the propaganda has had all sorts of adverse and collateral effects as well, but those are not being measured in this study. I agree with you about the complexity of the human mind and the likelihood of unintended consequences from any propaganda campaign (though that doesn’t mean propaganda never achieves its intended objective – clearly like all advertising it works on some levels), but I don’t see why it should be doubted, prima facie, that the consistent demonization of “racism” and favourable portrayal of other races we have had in almost all licensed and other mainstream media outlets and entertainment products for decades now would produce the kind of society in which a test such as the one described would be strongly biased towards the “less racist” results.

    Read More
  34. LondonBob says:
    @Randal
    The interesting one apart from the clear east/west divide for me is the higher western Mediterranean figures. That refutes the suggestion that it's simplistically a matter of exposure and familiarity.

    Speaking for my own country (UK) I know from personal experience that we have been massively propagandised for a couple of generations now to regard any expression or even internal experience of "racist" feeling to be socially unacceptable, and to regard people of other races as inherently "nice" and as "victims" (the highest compliment in the societies of the modern US sphere), and that surely must strongly influence such a subjective test. I suspect the same is true of the Nordics.

    We are very heavily propagandised.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zLuGwQyLyE

    Of course Precious in Come Fly With Me made a nice change from the usual ludicrous portrayals of blacks.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Randal
    The propaganda goes back a long way - Rising Damp, for instance, in the 1970s was one of a flurry of "antiracist" propaganda vehicles on mainstream TV, back when there were only three channels of television (only two that many people watched), and such propaganda had the kind of reach even the likes of the BBC can only dream of nowadays.
  35. @Felix Keverich
    I question the validity of this test as a scientfic indicator of "racism": there is no chance in hell former Yugoslavians could be this "progressive". The whole premise doesn't make much sense to me: negro faces can be pretty scary/ugly looking, hence the willingness of people to associate negative concepts with them.

    http://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/negroid_1282.jpg

    No "racism" involved, but people WILL subconciously respond to beauty, and objectively speaking, black people have less of it.

    PS:It's very annoying to see Crimea portrayed as Ukrainian on a map. How long would it take for you to edit it?

    “negro faces can be pretty scary/ugly looking”

    The black faces in that test don’t look really scary or ugly imo. They also look distinctly American black in my opinion (that is they don’t look quite like those really black guys fresh off the boat at Lampedusa, but at least somewhat lighter).
    I too have my doubts about that test, the results seem quite strange.

    Read More
  36. @reiner Tor
    In Hungary there was relatively strong anti-racism propaganda about how American police are violent to blacks and how they live in poverty and are incarcerated at very high rates etc. Essentially the structural racism arguments were used in anti-American propaganda.

    This was fairly effective in that in Hungary so-called racists are often convinced that blacks are much better than Gypsies. (Like often Jobbik supporters hold these views. Btw Jobbik moved quite a bit to the left, they parade around a local Gypsy Jobbik leader etc.)

    Also Hungarian hard nationalists often think that it's "Americans" who are against them (e.g. when an American ambassador lectures us how bad racism and anti-Semitism are), so they think it's a good argument to point out the Indian wars and slavery or American "imperialism" in general. (When in fact the same American leftists who criticize Hungarian "racism" often criticize the same Indian wars and slavery etc.)

    Yes. I was too young to experience the propaganda elsewhere but it was all over TV. We had a lot of East German stuff that we mostly considered boring but watched anyway while waiting for the few hours of Hollywood each week. (We didn’t have commercial TV channels until the 1990s and the state TV was completely staffed with Reds.)

    We were given the narrative of oppressed blacks of America and so on but the idea that we should import Africans and attack people who oppose the idea as racists simply did not exist until American influence flooded in in the 1990s. The Russians of course wanted us to chase “fascists” but, ironically, some of the American channels of influence that Moscow wanted shut down have turned out to be big promoters of immigration, LBGT and so on.

    By the way, we have a different type of gypsies in my old hometown. There is a horse race track nearby and it has created a small settled gypsy community, with their own farms dedicated entirely to breeding race horses. Gypsies of course eschew most professions but horses are an exception and horse breeding is perhaps the only way to gain respect among gypsies with hard work.

    Gypsies are perfectly capable of dropping the parasitical lifestyle and becoming patriotic, hard working redneck types if they choose so. They’re not smart – the gypsy kids spent only the first few years with us at school before they moved to the “special” track with Down syndrome kids and such – but they’re perfectly capable of understanding what they need to do to fit in and actually our settled gypsies wanted the roaming gypsies to stay out as they realized that they’d be the ones left behind as suspects in any mischief.

    They’re the exception though and gypsies have become more dysfunctional with modernity as “their” professions like horses and music have gotten marginalized by cars and the entertainment industry.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Boris N

    Gypsies are perfectly capable of dropping the parasitical lifestyle and becoming patriotic, hard working redneck types if they choose so.
     
    As I once said in one of my comment being a Gypsy is rather cultural than racial. Once Gypsies start to act like everybody around they stop being Gypsies and assimilate. There are a lot of swarthy-looking people around Eastern Europe whose ancestors were Gypsies but they are not, since they and their Gypsy ancestors have become "hard working rednecks"; they are now simply Russians, Hungarians, Romanians, etc.
  37. @reiner Tor
    In Hungary there was relatively strong anti-racism propaganda about how American police are violent to blacks and how they live in poverty and are incarcerated at very high rates etc. Essentially the structural racism arguments were used in anti-American propaganda.

    This was fairly effective in that in Hungary so-called racists are often convinced that blacks are much better than Gypsies. (Like often Jobbik supporters hold these views. Btw Jobbik moved quite a bit to the left, they parade around a local Gypsy Jobbik leader etc.)

    Also Hungarian hard nationalists often think that it's "Americans" who are against them (e.g. when an American ambassador lectures us how bad racism and anti-Semitism are), so they think it's a good argument to point out the Indian wars and slavery or American "imperialism" in general. (When in fact the same American leftists who criticize Hungarian "racism" often criticize the same Indian wars and slavery etc.)

    In Hungary there was relatively strong anti-racism propaganda

    They also had that in East Germany; e.g. they had a big campaign for Angela Davis and made her a honorary citizen of Madgeburg. I think she even visited the GDR a few times. Also of course lots of solidarity with revolutionary leftists in Mocambique etc. Still, East Germans are more “racist” than West Germans.
    Agree with you about how stupid it is when Europeans bring up slavery or the Indian wars against the US…that’s pretty ignorant about what the US today is and stands for.

    Read More
  38. @Boris N

    Portugal and nowadays Italy as well have a visible presence of blacks…that could mean, people become “more racist” when exposed to real-life diversity. But the reverse doesn’t seem to apply to those Eastern European countries which get high “racist” results, but have very few blacks.
     
    Both the scenarios could work. People may be overoptimistic to diversity due to propaganda, and then face the bitter truth; or they may be very parochial and isolated and rarely see strangers of other races/countries, yet this exactly makes them more xenophobic. Also the modern media makes some difference: you even do not need to live among the POC to understand their possible impact on the community, race riots and tensions over America and Western Europe are verily enlightening.

    And the results for ex-Yugoslavia are also quite strange.
     
    That may have been a result of their pool in those countries being very selective, like the test was done among very progressive Serbian academics from a Soros university or things like that. I doubt that rural parochial Serbs are that progressive. Especially after having had noticeable Gypsy communities there.

    race riots and tensions over America and Western Europe are verily enlightening

    I don’t think so, even today a lot of people in Western Europe certainly buy the official narrative (which is utterly dominant in mainstream media) that race relations in the US are bad only because of white racism. Certainly that’s how it is presented in German media, even supposedly conservative ones like Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung. If blacks riot in the US, it’s presented as justified anger at white cops brutally killing totally innocent blacks. You never hear about facts that might paint a rather different picture (like American blacks’ disprpoprtionate criminality, or the kind of truly vicious crimes committed by black criminals that seem to be at least not totally uncommon).
    Similar with the riots in London and France…supposedly all due only to frustration about racism and social exclusion.
    We need to be realistic…the people reading and commenting here aren’t typical.

    Read More
    • Replies: @reiner Tor

    even today a lot of people in Western Europe certainly buy the official narrative (which is utterly dominant in mainstream media) that race relations in the US are bad only because of white racism
     
    Yes, but Boris only wrote that it could happen. And sure it does, especially in places where the anti-racist propaganda is ineffective, or where less effort is put into it by the powers that be, etc.
    , @Boris N

    I don’t think so, even today a lot of people in Western Europe certainly buy the official narrative (which is utterly dominant in mainstream media)
     
    But we were speaking about Eastern Europe. There seems to exist no such narrative there, though I cannot confirm that, but even if it exists, it seems to have had a minimal impact. Instead through the media they can see for themselves what a disaster the refugees and immigrants "of color" and "of the religion of peace" have caused in the UK, France, Belgium or in neighboring Germany. So they even do not need to experience it by themselves - they rather do not want to experience it at all.
    , @Boris N

    You never hear about facts that might paint a rather different picture (like American blacks’ disprpoprtionate criminality, or the kind of truly vicious crimes committed by black criminals that seem to be at least not totally uncommon).
     
    I think the problem is bigger and deeper than that. If I remember it right, half of the victims of the "trigger-happy" cops are Whites, so even if we exclude Blacks there would still remain a significant number of people shot by the cops.
    The main reason is everybody have a gun in America, and criminals have it on the first place, and the default way of thinking for the cops is the criminals are heavily armed, so the cops do not even hesitate to shoot. Even if in America guns be forbidden, as some Americans propose, it won't not change anything as Americans have already had >300 million guns on them, you cannot control or destroy such enormous amount of guns. It's incurable.
  39. @reiner Tor

    I doubt that rural parochial Serbs are that progressive. Especially after having had noticeable Gypsy communities there.
     
    I have talked to a lot of Hungarian "racists" who hated Gypsies (with whom they had a lot of personal experience) but insisted that Pakistani Muslims and US blacks were way better. This was, actually, an explanation for them why Western Europeans were so "idealistic" or "pro-Gypsy", because - so the reasoning went - they had only experience with "good, hardworking" nonwhites "with low criminality" such as Muslims and blacks, and not with "criminal" Gypsies.

    Since the migration crisis a lot of anti-migrant websites have been created, and a lot of news about the disaster of migration in Western Europe have found their way into the nationalist Hungarian media (press, websites, the one or two cable TV channels), so these attitudes are changing. But I'm sure Hungarian "racists" were mostly anti-Gypsy and not much anti-Muslim or anti-Black until fairly recently, perhaps until 2015.

    I find that pretty strange. From my central European perspective gypsies, while definitely a burden, aren’t a threat in the same way many Muslims and Africans are. They con you and steal from you, but they don’t harbour fantasies of taking over and destroying the West like quite a few Muslims do. I also haven’t read that much about gypsies committing the type of vicious crimes (gang rapes etc.) one often reads about being committed by Somalis, Afghans etc. But maybe that happens more in Hungary. Probably all a matter of perspective.

    Read More
    • Replies: @reiner Tor

    I also haven’t read that much about gypsies committing the type of vicious crimes (gang rapes etc.)
     
    You should read more. But true, they are less violent, or their violence is less horrifying than black violence, but they do get violent (gangs of youths beating up elderly, children, or just about anybody, robbing them, threateningly walking the streets and gazing at bystanders, etc.), they also commit rapes or gang rapes at higher rates than the natives (though less in a predatory and more in an opportunistic manner - you can more easily avoid it), etc.

    You have to remember that people comparing them unfavorably to blacks have no experience of blacks except on TV, which is basically Hollywood propaganda. Same thing with Muslims - Hungarian press often reported how Arabs rioted to protest "racism" or "social exclusion" in France.
    , @Hector_St_Clare
    Roma fertility rates are super-high (higher than Muslims in western Europe, IIRC) so at the level of pure demographics they are more of a concern to ethnic nationalists than Muslims are.
    , @Boris N

    I find that pretty strange. From my central European perspective gypsies, while definitely a burden, aren’t a threat in the same way many Muslims and Africans are. They con you and steal from you, but they don’t harbour fantasies of taking over and destroying the West like quite a few Muslims do.
     
    In Russia Gypsies now means narcotics. Not stealing or fortune-telling, but drug dealing has become the specialty of modern Russian Gypsies. They seem to get an enormous income from that since they build big and reach houses with a lot of gold, that well-known "Gypsy style". I do not think that drug dealing at a large scale is harmless.

    It does not mean, though, that Muslims, Asians and Africans are any better. Central Asians seem to have filled that niche in Russia as well, or rather they have come into a symbiosis with Gypsies.
  40. reiner Tor says: • Website
    @German_reader

    race riots and tensions over America and Western Europe are verily enlightening
     
    I don't think so, even today a lot of people in Western Europe certainly buy the official narrative (which is utterly dominant in mainstream media) that race relations in the US are bad only because of white racism. Certainly that's how it is presented in German media, even supposedly conservative ones like Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung. If blacks riot in the US, it's presented as justified anger at white cops brutally killing totally innocent blacks. You never hear about facts that might paint a rather different picture (like American blacks' disprpoprtionate criminality, or the kind of truly vicious crimes committed by black criminals that seem to be at least not totally uncommon).
    Similar with the riots in London and France...supposedly all due only to frustration about racism and social exclusion.
    We need to be realistic...the people reading and commenting here aren't typical.

    even today a lot of people in Western Europe certainly buy the official narrative (which is utterly dominant in mainstream media) that race relations in the US are bad only because of white racism

    Yes, but Boris only wrote that it could happen. And sure it does, especially in places where the anti-racist propaganda is ineffective, or where less effort is put into it by the powers that be, etc.

    Read More
    • Replies: @German_reader
    I don't know, does it happen in Russia? I don't know about Russian media, but I'd imagine they'd have lots of the official line ("It's still like Alabama in 1925, racist white cops are hunting down blacks for fun"). Russia Today is like that, if I understand correctly. Now that may of course be aimed at a Western audience, but I'm skeptical that mainstream media for domestic consumption in Russia is much different in this regard.
  41. @reiner Tor

    even today a lot of people in Western Europe certainly buy the official narrative (which is utterly dominant in mainstream media) that race relations in the US are bad only because of white racism
     
    Yes, but Boris only wrote that it could happen. And sure it does, especially in places where the anti-racist propaganda is ineffective, or where less effort is put into it by the powers that be, etc.

    I don’t know, does it happen in Russia? I don’t know about Russian media, but I’d imagine they’d have lots of the official line (“It’s still like Alabama in 1925, racist white cops are hunting down blacks for fun”). Russia Today is like that, if I understand correctly. Now that may of course be aimed at a Western audience, but I’m skeptical that mainstream media for domestic consumption in Russia is much different in this regard.

    Read More
    • Replies: @melanf

    I don’t know, does it happen in Russia? (“It’s still like Alabama in 1925, racist white cops are hunting down blacks for fun”)
     
    Its agenda has long been forgotten. Currently in Russia the prevailing view - that white heterosexuals are the victims of racial discrimination in America
    , @Boris N
    The Russian official media is very progressive in that respect, like their Western counterparts. The only difference is that the role of Blacks in Russia have filled Central Asians and "Caucasians". There is self-censoring in the reporting of the crimes of the so-called "southern guests", even though the police seem to be less "progressive" as they often unofficially operate such terms as "persons of the 'Caucasian' nationality". But the news outlets never say the ethnicity of the perpetrators, it is absolute haram. Some "progressive" Russian deputies even have proposed a law which would legally forbid reporting the ethnicity of criminals.

    As for BLM and the race riots in America, I cannot say anything for sure, as I prefer to read the original American sources rather than the Russian interpretations. As for Europe they seem to put a great emphasis on the refugee problem and say how Europe is doomed, while they fail to see similar problems in Russia but at a larger scale. Truly hypocritical.
  42. reiner Tor says: • Website
    @German_reader
    I find that pretty strange. From my central European perspective gypsies, while definitely a burden, aren't a threat in the same way many Muslims and Africans are. They con you and steal from you, but they don't harbour fantasies of taking over and destroying the West like quite a few Muslims do. I also haven't read that much about gypsies committing the type of vicious crimes (gang rapes etc.) one often reads about being committed by Somalis, Afghans etc. But maybe that happens more in Hungary. Probably all a matter of perspective.

    I also haven’t read that much about gypsies committing the type of vicious crimes (gang rapes etc.)

    You should read more. But true, they are less violent, or their violence is less horrifying than black violence, but they do get violent (gangs of youths beating up elderly, children, or just about anybody, robbing them, threateningly walking the streets and gazing at bystanders, etc.), they also commit rapes or gang rapes at higher rates than the natives (though less in a predatory and more in an opportunistic manner – you can more easily avoid it), etc.

    You have to remember that people comparing them unfavorably to blacks have no experience of blacks except on TV, which is basically Hollywood propaganda. Same thing with Muslims – Hungarian press often reported how Arabs rioted to protest “racism” or “social exclusion” in France.

    Read More
    • Agree: German_reader
    • Replies: @Hector_St_Clare
    All violence in Europe is in a sense less scary than violence in the US or Latin America, since you guys don't have lots of handguns floating around. Hand guns don't cause murder, but they certainly make it opportunistically simplier.

    In terms of non-murder crimes e.g. rape, assault, robbery, Europe has plenty of those.
  43. @Anatoly Karlin
    Also common approach with patriot/normie Russians (i.e. arguments of the "but what about KKK/lynchings/police brutality) who are however themselves, by American standards, strongly casually racist.

    “And you are still lynching negroes!”

    Read More
  44. Randal says:
    @LondonBob
    We are very heavily propagandised.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zLuGwQyLyE

    Of course Precious in Come Fly With Me made a nice change from the usual ludicrous portrayals of blacks.

    The propaganda goes back a long way – Rising Damp, for instance, in the 1970s was one of a flurry of “antiracist” propaganda vehicles on mainstream TV, back when there were only three channels of television (only two that many people watched), and such propaganda had the kind of reach even the likes of the BBC can only dream of nowadays.

    Read More
  45. CM says:

    Israelis should score as highly racist on this.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
    Didn't notice that Israel was also included on the supplementary graph.

    It is at around the level of France/Switzerland/Hungary.
  46. @CM
    Israelis should score as highly racist on this.

    Didn’t notice that Israel was also included on the supplementary graph.

    It is at around the level of France/Switzerland/Hungary.

    Read More
  47. @reiner Tor
    In Hungary there was relatively strong anti-racism propaganda about how American police are violent to blacks and how they live in poverty and are incarcerated at very high rates etc. Essentially the structural racism arguments were used in anti-American propaganda.

    This was fairly effective in that in Hungary so-called racists are often convinced that blacks are much better than Gypsies. (Like often Jobbik supporters hold these views. Btw Jobbik moved quite a bit to the left, they parade around a local Gypsy Jobbik leader etc.)

    Also Hungarian hard nationalists often think that it's "Americans" who are against them (e.g. when an American ambassador lectures us how bad racism and anti-Semitism are), so they think it's a good argument to point out the Indian wars and slavery or American "imperialism" in general. (When in fact the same American leftists who criticize Hungarian "racism" often criticize the same Indian wars and slavery etc.)

    This was fairly effective in that in Hungary so-called racists are often convinced that blacks are much better than Gypsies. (Like often Jobbik supporters hold these views. Btw Jobbik moved quite a bit to the left, they parade around a local Gypsy Jobbik leader etc.)

    I mean, in terms of social dysfunction African Americans are in fact a lot better off than Gypsies. My friend trots out this statistic that educational attainment among East European Roma isn’t just below African Americans today, it’s below African Americans in the South during the Jim Crow era.

    BTW, Kristina Morvai is also married to a Jewish guy right, in spite of her anti-Jewish comments about the “tiny circumcised you know what”?

    Anyway all of this suggests to me that ethnocentric immigration policy doesn’t all boil down to ‘racism’, and that opposition to one ethnic minority doesn’t necessarily translate into opposition towards others. But then again we should already have known that.

    It’s also interesting that the most ‘racist’ East European country is the Czech Republic, even though it’s in some regards the most ‘progressive’ (lowest Gini index, least religious, IIRC the most prosperous). Their ethnic nationalist party is also much smaller/weaker than the ones in Hungary, Poland or the Slovakia (or even the nations further south, I guess). But maybe that’s because the Social Democrats, Communists and Conservatives are already relatively open to anti-mass-migration views, so people don’t feel a need to vote for Okamura.

    Read More
  48. @German_reader
    I find that pretty strange. From my central European perspective gypsies, while definitely a burden, aren't a threat in the same way many Muslims and Africans are. They con you and steal from you, but they don't harbour fantasies of taking over and destroying the West like quite a few Muslims do. I also haven't read that much about gypsies committing the type of vicious crimes (gang rapes etc.) one often reads about being committed by Somalis, Afghans etc. But maybe that happens more in Hungary. Probably all a matter of perspective.

    Roma fertility rates are super-high (higher than Muslims in western Europe, IIRC) so at the level of pure demographics they are more of a concern to ethnic nationalists than Muslims are.

    Read More
    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    They used to be super-high, now it's estimated to around perhaps 2.5-3.0, same as Maghrebi fertility in France, though it's difficult to measure, because many Gypsies consider themselves Hungarians, especially for the purposes of the census. In any event they at least don't have immigration on top of the fertility.
  49. @reiner Tor
    In Hungary there was relatively strong anti-racism propaganda about how American police are violent to blacks and how they live in poverty and are incarcerated at very high rates etc. Essentially the structural racism arguments were used in anti-American propaganda.

    This was fairly effective in that in Hungary so-called racists are often convinced that blacks are much better than Gypsies. (Like often Jobbik supporters hold these views. Btw Jobbik moved quite a bit to the left, they parade around a local Gypsy Jobbik leader etc.)

    Also Hungarian hard nationalists often think that it's "Americans" who are against them (e.g. when an American ambassador lectures us how bad racism and anti-Semitism are), so they think it's a good argument to point out the Indian wars and slavery or American "imperialism" in general. (When in fact the same American leftists who criticize Hungarian "racism" often criticize the same Indian wars and slavery etc.)

    For the record, as an American, I do think the Eastern Europeans who hold ethnocentric views while criticizing America for being racist are mostly correct here. I think that African-Americans are treated quite poorly by American society, whereas the Roma’s and e.g. British Pakistanis’ problems are largely self-inflicted, and I also think the ‘ethnic homeland’ model of a society, while perfectly appropriate for Poland or Hungary or the Czechs, isn’t appropriate for America. (Black Americans lived in this country before most of the ancestors of today’s white people did, and the Native Americans were here before both). This is one reason why I would probably support ethnonationalists if I lived in Europe, but don’t support them here in America.

    Read More
    • Replies: @German_reader
    I'm not sure if you aren't too generous about American blacks and too harsh about Roma here. I've no illusions about Roma, many of them have a hostile and parasitical attitude towards outsiders. But still, it's not like they haven't gone through some serious suffering themselves. The Nazis did kill quite a substantial number of them. Frankly, the historical grievances of blacks in America from roughly the same time frame (Emmett Till etc.) are trivial in comparison. It may well be that America even today treats blacks in questionable ways (the number of black men incarcerated, at least in some cases for probably fairly trivial crimes, is really scary...on the other hand, so is the number of murders and rapes committed by American blacks). But they get portrayed extremely positively in mass media with global reach and have at least some political influence. Nobody really likes gypsies and even many left-wingers regard them as a problem. Blacks are somehow seen as cool, and standing for the future of mankind, with Africa's demographic expansion. Nobody feels that way about gypsies.
  50. reiner Tor says: • Website
    @Hector_St_Clare
    Roma fertility rates are super-high (higher than Muslims in western Europe, IIRC) so at the level of pure demographics they are more of a concern to ethnic nationalists than Muslims are.

    They used to be super-high, now it’s estimated to around perhaps 2.5-3.0, same as Maghrebi fertility in France, though it’s difficult to measure, because many Gypsies consider themselves Hungarians, especially for the purposes of the census. In any event they at least don’t have immigration on top of the fertility.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Hector_St_Clare
    @Reiner Tor,

    I wasn't aware of the recnet trend, but it's good to hear about progress on that front.
    , @Hector_St_Clare
    @Reiner Tor,

    This paper is from 2008 and the statistics seem a bit questionable, but they purport to find that among northern Hungarians with "skilled work qualification" (trade school or further education), Roma actually have lower fertility than non-Roma (1.36 compared to 1.80). No doubt there's a strong selection effect. But maybe a big part of the answer here (as it's been in Latin America and other parts of the world) is really for the state to push more Roma women into the workforce and break down traditional patriarchal cultures.

    Slovak Roma also appear to have lower fertility than Hungarian Roma (although non-Roma Slovaks are also some of the least fertile people in the world).

    http://epc2008.princeton.edu/papers/80468
  51. @reiner Tor
    They used to be super-high, now it's estimated to around perhaps 2.5-3.0, same as Maghrebi fertility in France, though it's difficult to measure, because many Gypsies consider themselves Hungarians, especially for the purposes of the census. In any event they at least don't have immigration on top of the fertility.

    @Reiner Tor,

    I wasn’t aware of the recnet trend, but it’s good to hear about progress on that front.

    Read More
  52. @reiner Tor

    I also haven’t read that much about gypsies committing the type of vicious crimes (gang rapes etc.)
     
    You should read more. But true, they are less violent, or their violence is less horrifying than black violence, but they do get violent (gangs of youths beating up elderly, children, or just about anybody, robbing them, threateningly walking the streets and gazing at bystanders, etc.), they also commit rapes or gang rapes at higher rates than the natives (though less in a predatory and more in an opportunistic manner - you can more easily avoid it), etc.

    You have to remember that people comparing them unfavorably to blacks have no experience of blacks except on TV, which is basically Hollywood propaganda. Same thing with Muslims - Hungarian press often reported how Arabs rioted to protest "racism" or "social exclusion" in France.

    All violence in Europe is in a sense less scary than violence in the US or Latin America, since you guys don’t have lots of handguns floating around. Hand guns don’t cause murder, but they certainly make it opportunistically simplier.

    In terms of non-murder crimes e.g. rape, assault, robbery, Europe has plenty of those.

    Read More
  53. @Boris N

    Portugal and nowadays Italy as well have a visible presence of blacks…that could mean, people become “more racist” when exposed to real-life diversity. But the reverse doesn’t seem to apply to those Eastern European countries which get high “racist” results, but have very few blacks.
     
    Both the scenarios could work. People may be overoptimistic to diversity due to propaganda, and then face the bitter truth; or they may be very parochial and isolated and rarely see strangers of other races/countries, yet this exactly makes them more xenophobic. Also the modern media makes some difference: you even do not need to live among the POC to understand their possible impact on the community, race riots and tensions over America and Western Europe are verily enlightening.

    And the results for ex-Yugoslavia are also quite strange.
     
    That may have been a result of their pool in those countries being very selective, like the test was done among very progressive Serbian academics from a Soros university or things like that. I doubt that rural parochial Serbs are that progressive. Especially after having had noticeable Gypsy communities there.

    During the UK referendum to leave the EU, which turned on immigration, the areas voting Remain had high immigrant populations. The Leavers, had very low levels of immigration. The contrast between Cardiff (first mosque in UK) and Blaenau Gwent (strong emigration) for example.

    Read More
  54. @Hector_St_Clare
    For the record, as an American, I do think the Eastern Europeans who hold ethnocentric views while criticizing America for being racist are mostly correct here. I think that African-Americans are treated quite poorly by American society, whereas the Roma's and e.g. British Pakistanis' problems are largely self-inflicted, and I also think the 'ethnic homeland' model of a society, while perfectly appropriate for Poland or Hungary or the Czechs, isn't appropriate for America. (Black Americans lived in this country before most of the ancestors of today's white people did, and the Native Americans were here before both). This is one reason why I would probably support ethnonationalists if I lived in Europe, but don't support them here in America.

    I’m not sure if you aren’t too generous about American blacks and too harsh about Roma here. I’ve no illusions about Roma, many of them have a hostile and parasitical attitude towards outsiders. But still, it’s not like they haven’t gone through some serious suffering themselves. The Nazis did kill quite a substantial number of them. Frankly, the historical grievances of blacks in America from roughly the same time frame (Emmett Till etc.) are trivial in comparison. It may well be that America even today treats blacks in questionable ways (the number of black men incarcerated, at least in some cases for probably fairly trivial crimes, is really scary…on the other hand, so is the number of murders and rapes committed by American blacks). But they get portrayed extremely positively in mass media with global reach and have at least some political influence. Nobody really likes gypsies and even many left-wingers regard them as a problem. Blacks are somehow seen as cool, and standing for the future of mankind, with Africa’s demographic expansion. Nobody feels that way about gypsies.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Hector_St_Clare
    Fair enough, the Nazis did indeed kill a great many Roma. That doesn't of course necessarily mean one must be a partisan of the Roma cause or culture: lots of people have drawn entirely the wrong lessons from the Holocaust. But I'll concede maybe I have been a bit too critical of them.
    , @fnn
    The Nazis seem to have done a poor job of it. A lot of Gypsies after the war in Czechoslovakia, Hungary, Yugoslavia and Romania.
  55. melanf says:
    @German_reader
    I don't know, does it happen in Russia? I don't know about Russian media, but I'd imagine they'd have lots of the official line ("It's still like Alabama in 1925, racist white cops are hunting down blacks for fun"). Russia Today is like that, if I understand correctly. Now that may of course be aimed at a Western audience, but I'm skeptical that mainstream media for domestic consumption in Russia is much different in this regard.

    I don’t know, does it happen in Russia? (“It’s still like Alabama in 1925, racist white cops are hunting down blacks for fun”)

    Its agenda has long been forgotten. Currently in Russia the prevailing view – that white heterosexuals are the victims of racial discrimination in America

    Read More
  56. @reiner Tor
    They used to be super-high, now it's estimated to around perhaps 2.5-3.0, same as Maghrebi fertility in France, though it's difficult to measure, because many Gypsies consider themselves Hungarians, especially for the purposes of the census. In any event they at least don't have immigration on top of the fertility.

    @Reiner Tor,

    This paper is from 2008 and the statistics seem a bit questionable, but they purport to find that among northern Hungarians with “skilled work qualification” (trade school or further education), Roma actually have lower fertility than non-Roma (1.36 compared to 1.80). No doubt there’s a strong selection effect. But maybe a big part of the answer here (as it’s been in Latin America and other parts of the world) is really for the state to push more Roma women into the workforce and break down traditional patriarchal cultures.

    Slovak Roma also appear to have lower fertility than Hungarian Roma (although non-Roma Slovaks are also some of the least fertile people in the world).

    http://epc2008.princeton.edu/papers/80468

    Read More
    • Replies: @Hector_St_Clare
    I mean the statistics on that *really do suck* (looks like they used a one-tailed t-test) so I'd definitely take it with lots of grains of salt. Still, it does suggest a possible solution to cultures with unsustainably high fertility.
  57. @German_reader
    I'm not sure if you aren't too generous about American blacks and too harsh about Roma here. I've no illusions about Roma, many of them have a hostile and parasitical attitude towards outsiders. But still, it's not like they haven't gone through some serious suffering themselves. The Nazis did kill quite a substantial number of them. Frankly, the historical grievances of blacks in America from roughly the same time frame (Emmett Till etc.) are trivial in comparison. It may well be that America even today treats blacks in questionable ways (the number of black men incarcerated, at least in some cases for probably fairly trivial crimes, is really scary...on the other hand, so is the number of murders and rapes committed by American blacks). But they get portrayed extremely positively in mass media with global reach and have at least some political influence. Nobody really likes gypsies and even many left-wingers regard them as a problem. Blacks are somehow seen as cool, and standing for the future of mankind, with Africa's demographic expansion. Nobody feels that way about gypsies.

    Fair enough, the Nazis did indeed kill a great many Roma. That doesn’t of course necessarily mean one must be a partisan of the Roma cause or culture: lots of people have drawn entirely the wrong lessons from the Holocaust. But I’ll concede maybe I have been a bit too critical of them.

    Read More
  58. @Hector_St_Clare
    @Reiner Tor,

    This paper is from 2008 and the statistics seem a bit questionable, but they purport to find that among northern Hungarians with "skilled work qualification" (trade school or further education), Roma actually have lower fertility than non-Roma (1.36 compared to 1.80). No doubt there's a strong selection effect. But maybe a big part of the answer here (as it's been in Latin America and other parts of the world) is really for the state to push more Roma women into the workforce and break down traditional patriarchal cultures.

    Slovak Roma also appear to have lower fertility than Hungarian Roma (although non-Roma Slovaks are also some of the least fertile people in the world).

    http://epc2008.princeton.edu/papers/80468

    I mean the statistics on that *really do suck* (looks like they used a one-tailed t-test) so I’d definitely take it with lots of grains of salt. Still, it does suggest a possible solution to cultures with unsustainably high fertility.

    Read More
  59. Boris N says:
    @German_reader

    race riots and tensions over America and Western Europe are verily enlightening
     
    I don't think so, even today a lot of people in Western Europe certainly buy the official narrative (which is utterly dominant in mainstream media) that race relations in the US are bad only because of white racism. Certainly that's how it is presented in German media, even supposedly conservative ones like Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung. If blacks riot in the US, it's presented as justified anger at white cops brutally killing totally innocent blacks. You never hear about facts that might paint a rather different picture (like American blacks' disprpoprtionate criminality, or the kind of truly vicious crimes committed by black criminals that seem to be at least not totally uncommon).
    Similar with the riots in London and France...supposedly all due only to frustration about racism and social exclusion.
    We need to be realistic...the people reading and commenting here aren't typical.

    I don’t think so, even today a lot of people in Western Europe certainly buy the official narrative (which is utterly dominant in mainstream media)

    But we were speaking about Eastern Europe. There seems to exist no such narrative there, though I cannot confirm that, but even if it exists, it seems to have had a minimal impact. Instead through the media they can see for themselves what a disaster the refugees and immigrants “of color” and “of the religion of peace” have caused in the UK, France, Belgium or in neighboring Germany. So they even do not need to experience it by themselves – they rather do not want to experience it at all.

    Read More
  60. Boris N says:
    @German_reader

    race riots and tensions over America and Western Europe are verily enlightening
     
    I don't think so, even today a lot of people in Western Europe certainly buy the official narrative (which is utterly dominant in mainstream media) that race relations in the US are bad only because of white racism. Certainly that's how it is presented in German media, even supposedly conservative ones like Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung. If blacks riot in the US, it's presented as justified anger at white cops brutally killing totally innocent blacks. You never hear about facts that might paint a rather different picture (like American blacks' disprpoprtionate criminality, or the kind of truly vicious crimes committed by black criminals that seem to be at least not totally uncommon).
    Similar with the riots in London and France...supposedly all due only to frustration about racism and social exclusion.
    We need to be realistic...the people reading and commenting here aren't typical.

    You never hear about facts that might paint a rather different picture (like American blacks’ disprpoprtionate criminality, or the kind of truly vicious crimes committed by black criminals that seem to be at least not totally uncommon).

    I think the problem is bigger and deeper than that. If I remember it right, half of the victims of the “trigger-happy” cops are Whites, so even if we exclude Blacks there would still remain a significant number of people shot by the cops.
    The main reason is everybody have a gun in America, and criminals have it on the first place, and the default way of thinking for the cops is the criminals are heavily armed, so the cops do not even hesitate to shoot. Even if in America guns be forbidden, as some Americans propose, it won’t not change anything as Americans have already had >300 million guns on them, you cannot control or destroy such enormous amount of guns. It’s incurable.

    Read More
    • Replies: @German_reader
    Well, I don't really doubt that American policemen do shoot and kill a lot of people in questionable circumstances. The US seems pretty messed up in that respect (its general crime levels and incarceration rates are also rather disturbing imo). I don't believe though that this is primarily a race thing; if I understand correctly, there are even studies claiming that white cops are more hesitant to shoot black suspects because they know it can make national news and ruin their lives.
  61. Boris N says:
    @reiner Tor

    the connection between marrying your cousins in your early 20s and being more racist, and marrying an unrelated spouse in your late 20s and being less racist
     
    FTFY

    So you even failed to have known that the Hajnal line is nothing about cousin marriages. What else could be discussed if people even fail to read the Wikipedia article about the Hajnal line, not to say the original and its critics?

    Or didn’t you know that cousin marriages were and are strongly forbidden by the Orthodox Church, so it was simply impossible? The Orthodox Church even elaborated the highly detailed rules of the levels of relatedness and who could marry whom.

    Read More
    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    Well, for one thing, late marriage means that the marriage partners will decide for themselves rather than have their families decide for them. The later the marriage, the more likely for the husband (or even the wife) to have an income or wealth independent of his parents, the more likely for the parents to be even dead (we're talking about medieval societies here), so the less likely to have an arranged marriage anyway.

    As far as I know, there's a very nice correlation that inside the Hajnal line, cousin marriage was basically unknown (very few people would want to marry their cousins if they made the decision, probably that's so in the Arab world, too), while outside the Hajnal line, it was more common. From what I read, yes, it was relatively common in Russia, though of course it probably never reached Sicilian or Syrian levels.

    As to the rules of the Orthodox Church, the Catholic Church had similar rules, yet outside the Hajnal line exceptions were often made, for example in small villages. Or they could've married second cousins, which was theoretically forbidden, too, but not as strongly as marriage of first cousins. I know of some ancestors who were in cousin marriages (though I think only double second cousins, not first cousins - two such marriages within the memory of my late grandma).
  62. Boris N says:
    @Felix Keverich
    I question the validity of this test as a scientfic indicator of "racism": there is no chance in hell former Yugoslavians could be this "progressive". The whole premise doesn't make much sense to me: negro faces can be pretty scary/ugly looking, hence the willingness of people to associate negative concepts with them.

    http://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/negroid_1282.jpg

    No "racism" involved, but people WILL subconciously respond to beauty, and objectively speaking, black people have less of it.

    PS:It's very annoying to see Crimea portrayed as Ukrainian on a map. How long would it take for you to edit it?

    Just to be fair there can be found a lot of scary-looking and ugly criminals among Whites. And this guy has a father and a mother, and most likely he looks after his father, which means some women, at least his mother, consider such types attractive.

    Read More
  63. Boris N says:
    @Jaakko Raipala
    Yes. I was too young to experience the propaganda elsewhere but it was all over TV. We had a lot of East German stuff that we mostly considered boring but watched anyway while waiting for the few hours of Hollywood each week. (We didn't have commercial TV channels until the 1990s and the state TV was completely staffed with Reds.)

    We were given the narrative of oppressed blacks of America and so on but the idea that we should import Africans and attack people who oppose the idea as racists simply did not exist until American influence flooded in in the 1990s. The Russians of course wanted us to chase "fascists" but, ironically, some of the American channels of influence that Moscow wanted shut down have turned out to be big promoters of immigration, LBGT and so on.

    By the way, we have a different type of gypsies in my old hometown. There is a horse race track nearby and it has created a small settled gypsy community, with their own farms dedicated entirely to breeding race horses. Gypsies of course eschew most professions but horses are an exception and horse breeding is perhaps the only way to gain respect among gypsies with hard work.

    Gypsies are perfectly capable of dropping the parasitical lifestyle and becoming patriotic, hard working redneck types if they choose so. They're not smart - the gypsy kids spent only the first few years with us at school before they moved to the "special" track with Down syndrome kids and such - but they're perfectly capable of understanding what they need to do to fit in and actually our settled gypsies wanted the roaming gypsies to stay out as they realized that they'd be the ones left behind as suspects in any mischief.

    They're the exception though and gypsies have become more dysfunctional with modernity as "their" professions like horses and music have gotten marginalized by cars and the entertainment industry.

    Gypsies are perfectly capable of dropping the parasitical lifestyle and becoming patriotic, hard working redneck types if they choose so.

    As I once said in one of my comment being a Gypsy is rather cultural than racial. Once Gypsies start to act like everybody around they stop being Gypsies and assimilate. There are a lot of swarthy-looking people around Eastern Europe whose ancestors were Gypsies but they are not, since they and their Gypsy ancestors have become “hard working rednecks”; they are now simply Russians, Hungarians, Romanians, etc.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Jaakko Raipala
    This went both ways here. Criminals, prostitutes and other outcasts sometimes joined gypsies. The stories are that the gypsies would let someone travel with them but mercilessly abuse them for years. In the end they might accept the "convert" if they ended up at the point where they're just as unfazed by abuse as a real gypsy.

    Finnish gypsies look much more European admixed than the ones from Romania etc that are now begging on the streets so they might be higher IQ, though.

    You're right on the Hajnal line, it's amazing how much stuff gets attributed to it on HBD blogs without any justification. Finns are a rare ethnic group with subgroups that go on both sides of the line (most of the maps are confused on Finland because the authors don't realize this) and it doesn't seem to make any difference at all on cousin marriage, corruption and so on. (The part of Finns that go on the eastern side seem to be those who were once part of Novgorod and at least superficially Orthodox but it also follows a pre-Christian tribal division so that might not be the cause.)
  64. Boris N says:
    @German_reader
    I find that pretty strange. From my central European perspective gypsies, while definitely a burden, aren't a threat in the same way many Muslims and Africans are. They con you and steal from you, but they don't harbour fantasies of taking over and destroying the West like quite a few Muslims do. I also haven't read that much about gypsies committing the type of vicious crimes (gang rapes etc.) one often reads about being committed by Somalis, Afghans etc. But maybe that happens more in Hungary. Probably all a matter of perspective.

    I find that pretty strange. From my central European perspective gypsies, while definitely a burden, aren’t a threat in the same way many Muslims and Africans are. They con you and steal from you, but they don’t harbour fantasies of taking over and destroying the West like quite a few Muslims do.

    In Russia Gypsies now means narcotics. Not stealing or fortune-telling, but drug dealing has become the specialty of modern Russian Gypsies. They seem to get an enormous income from that since they build big and reach houses with a lot of gold, that well-known “Gypsy style”. I do not think that drug dealing at a large scale is harmless.

    It does not mean, though, that Muslims, Asians and Africans are any better. Central Asians seem to have filled that niche in Russia as well, or rather they have come into a symbiosis with Gypsies.

    Read More
  65. Boris N says:
    @German_reader
    I don't know, does it happen in Russia? I don't know about Russian media, but I'd imagine they'd have lots of the official line ("It's still like Alabama in 1925, racist white cops are hunting down blacks for fun"). Russia Today is like that, if I understand correctly. Now that may of course be aimed at a Western audience, but I'm skeptical that mainstream media for domestic consumption in Russia is much different in this regard.

    The Russian official media is very progressive in that respect, like their Western counterparts. The only difference is that the role of Blacks in Russia have filled Central Asians and “Caucasians”. There is self-censoring in the reporting of the crimes of the so-called “southern guests”, even though the police seem to be less “progressive” as they often unofficially operate such terms as “persons of the ‘Caucasian’ nationality”. But the news outlets never say the ethnicity of the perpetrators, it is absolute haram. Some “progressive” Russian deputies even have proposed a law which would legally forbid reporting the ethnicity of criminals.

    As for BLM and the race riots in America, I cannot say anything for sure, as I prefer to read the original American sources rather than the Russian interpretations. As for Europe they seem to put a great emphasis on the refugee problem and say how Europe is doomed, while they fail to see similar problems in Russia but at a larger scale. Truly hypocritical.

    Read More
    • Replies: @German_reader
    So there isn't really a coherent line? Interesting, thanks for the information.
  66. @Anon 2
    Actually, Poland, France, and Germany are very close,
    and all of them are less "racist" than liberal California
    or many other U.S. states

    Yes, you are right; anti-white racism is strong and growing here in California.

    Read More
  67. @Boris N

    You never hear about facts that might paint a rather different picture (like American blacks’ disprpoprtionate criminality, or the kind of truly vicious crimes committed by black criminals that seem to be at least not totally uncommon).
     
    I think the problem is bigger and deeper than that. If I remember it right, half of the victims of the "trigger-happy" cops are Whites, so even if we exclude Blacks there would still remain a significant number of people shot by the cops.
    The main reason is everybody have a gun in America, and criminals have it on the first place, and the default way of thinking for the cops is the criminals are heavily armed, so the cops do not even hesitate to shoot. Even if in America guns be forbidden, as some Americans propose, it won't not change anything as Americans have already had >300 million guns on them, you cannot control or destroy such enormous amount of guns. It's incurable.

    Well, I don’t really doubt that American policemen do shoot and kill a lot of people in questionable circumstances. The US seems pretty messed up in that respect (its general crime levels and incarceration rates are also rather disturbing imo). I don’t believe though that this is primarily a race thing; if I understand correctly, there are even studies claiming that white cops are more hesitant to shoot black suspects because they know it can make national news and ruin their lives.

    Read More
  68. @Boris N
    The Russian official media is very progressive in that respect, like their Western counterparts. The only difference is that the role of Blacks in Russia have filled Central Asians and "Caucasians". There is self-censoring in the reporting of the crimes of the so-called "southern guests", even though the police seem to be less "progressive" as they often unofficially operate such terms as "persons of the 'Caucasian' nationality". But the news outlets never say the ethnicity of the perpetrators, it is absolute haram. Some "progressive" Russian deputies even have proposed a law which would legally forbid reporting the ethnicity of criminals.

    As for BLM and the race riots in America, I cannot say anything for sure, as I prefer to read the original American sources rather than the Russian interpretations. As for Europe they seem to put a great emphasis on the refugee problem and say how Europe is doomed, while they fail to see similar problems in Russia but at a larger scale. Truly hypocritical.

    So there isn’t really a coherent line? Interesting, thanks for the information.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Boris N
    Yes, the central Russian media (TV particularly) cover the immigrant problems in Europe quite disproportionally, while they fail to do that for Russia. One example. The case with a refugee who raped a boy in Austria was covered widely, that even Putin himself mentioned that case in one of his speeches. But when an Uzbek nanny, who had links to Islamic terrorists, killed her ward, a 4-year old Russian girl, cut her head and walked allah-akbaring around Moscow, it was never reported on central Russian TV, only a few Internet media mentioned it. In a normal country such an extraordinary gruesome murder would be in the headlines for a month at least and the trial would be an all-national event. But she was later practically acquitted due to her alleged "mental illness" and sent back to her country to be treated (read: she will be free in a couple of years). And of course, Putin never mentioned it, but he would rather show a goodwill once more to his Uzbek "dear partners" and he would speak for more Asiatic immigrants, more open borders and more loans.
  69. @Boris N

    Gypsies are perfectly capable of dropping the parasitical lifestyle and becoming patriotic, hard working redneck types if they choose so.
     
    As I once said in one of my comment being a Gypsy is rather cultural than racial. Once Gypsies start to act like everybody around they stop being Gypsies and assimilate. There are a lot of swarthy-looking people around Eastern Europe whose ancestors were Gypsies but they are not, since they and their Gypsy ancestors have become "hard working rednecks"; they are now simply Russians, Hungarians, Romanians, etc.

    This went both ways here. Criminals, prostitutes and other outcasts sometimes joined gypsies. The stories are that the gypsies would let someone travel with them but mercilessly abuse them for years. In the end they might accept the “convert” if they ended up at the point where they’re just as unfazed by abuse as a real gypsy.

    Finnish gypsies look much more European admixed than the ones from Romania etc that are now begging on the streets so they might be higher IQ, though.

    You’re right on the Hajnal line, it’s amazing how much stuff gets attributed to it on HBD blogs without any justification. Finns are a rare ethnic group with subgroups that go on both sides of the line (most of the maps are confused on Finland because the authors don’t realize this) and it doesn’t seem to make any difference at all on cousin marriage, corruption and so on. (The part of Finns that go on the eastern side seem to be those who were once part of Novgorod and at least superficially Orthodox but it also follows a pre-Christian tribal division so that might not be the cause.)

    Read More
  70. ryan says:
    @German_reader
    I just did that test with white and black faces/positively and negatively connotated words, and got "geringe bis gar keine automatische Bevorzugung von einer der beiden Gruppen" (low to no automatic preference for one of both groups") as a result (which only 17% percent of those taking the test get, about 70% have some preference for whites).
    Maybe I f***ed the test up, I made some mistakes and am somewhat slow at this...I didn't get any error message though that there wasn't enough data. Or I'm much less "racist" than I thought I am.
    In any case, I'm not sure if those tests are really meaningful or reliable.

    If your question is whether the score on the IAT has any ability to predict future biased behavior the answer so far as I know is no, it does not.

    Read More
  71. fnn says:
    @Anatoly Karlin
    I remember a poll querying Brits on their perceptions of various ethno-demographic groups.

    Young white men scored at the bottom (8%), well below Black Caribbean men (19%); young white women were more disliked (23%) than young Pakistani men (28%).

    https://yougov.co.uk/news/2015/12/14/prejudice-data/

    What a cucked self-hating country. No wonder Children of Men was produced there. Really quite sad.

    In any major (and some minor ) tourist spot in the world you’re likely to find a drunken Englishman ready to start a fight. Adopting Murrayesque analysis, not surprising that class division in the UK seems to be intensifying rather than receding.. Not true of the Irish I’ve met (except for Irish-Americans in the US.)

    Read More
  72. fnn says:
    @German_reader
    I'm not sure if you aren't too generous about American blacks and too harsh about Roma here. I've no illusions about Roma, many of them have a hostile and parasitical attitude towards outsiders. But still, it's not like they haven't gone through some serious suffering themselves. The Nazis did kill quite a substantial number of them. Frankly, the historical grievances of blacks in America from roughly the same time frame (Emmett Till etc.) are trivial in comparison. It may well be that America even today treats blacks in questionable ways (the number of black men incarcerated, at least in some cases for probably fairly trivial crimes, is really scary...on the other hand, so is the number of murders and rapes committed by American blacks). But they get portrayed extremely positively in mass media with global reach and have at least some political influence. Nobody really likes gypsies and even many left-wingers regard them as a problem. Blacks are somehow seen as cool, and standing for the future of mankind, with Africa's demographic expansion. Nobody feels that way about gypsies.

    The Nazis seem to have done a poor job of it. A lot of Gypsies after the war in Czechoslovakia, Hungary, Yugoslavia and Romania.

    Read More
  73. fnn says:
    @Anatoly Karlin
    Also common approach with patriot/normie Russians (i.e. arguments of the "but what about KKK/lynchings/police brutality) who are however themselves, by American standards, strongly casually racist.

    What happens when you tell them its the opposite, and blacks hunting down and killing whites is far more common. With police, there’s no evidence cops are more likely to kill blacks than whites, circumstances being approximately equal.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
    They tend to sort of shrug it off because they intuitively acknowledge it is true, and move on other real and perceived failures of the US.
  74. @fnn
    What happens when you tell them its the opposite, and blacks hunting down and killing whites is far more common. With police, there's no evidence cops are more likely to kill blacks than whites, circumstances being approximately equal.

    They tend to sort of shrug it off because they intuitively acknowledge it is true, and move on other real and perceived failures of the US.

    Read More
  75. Boris N says:
    @German_reader
    So there isn't really a coherent line? Interesting, thanks for the information.

    Yes, the central Russian media (TV particularly) cover the immigrant problems in Europe quite disproportionally, while they fail to do that for Russia. One example. The case with a refugee who raped a boy in Austria was covered widely, that even Putin himself mentioned that case in one of his speeches. But when an Uzbek nanny, who had links to Islamic terrorists, killed her ward, a 4-year old Russian girl, cut her head and walked allah-akbaring around Moscow, it was never reported on central Russian TV, only a few Internet media mentioned it. In a normal country such an extraordinary gruesome murder would be in the headlines for a month at least and the trial would be an all-national event. But she was later practically acquitted due to her alleged “mental illness” and sent back to her country to be treated (read: she will be free in a couple of years). And of course, Putin never mentioned it, but he would rather show a goodwill once more to his Uzbek “dear partners” and he would speak for more Asiatic immigrants, more open borders and more loans.

    Read More
    • Replies: @German_reader

    In a normal country such an extraordinary gruesome murder would be in the headlines for a month at least
     
    I'm not sure such a "normal" country exists anymore though...certainly not in Germany. There have been several extremely gruesome cases (inluding murders) of crimes committed by recent migrants which got hardly any attention at all in national media.
    Depressing though that Russia is just the same in this regard.
  76. @Boris N
    Yes, the central Russian media (TV particularly) cover the immigrant problems in Europe quite disproportionally, while they fail to do that for Russia. One example. The case with a refugee who raped a boy in Austria was covered widely, that even Putin himself mentioned that case in one of his speeches. But when an Uzbek nanny, who had links to Islamic terrorists, killed her ward, a 4-year old Russian girl, cut her head and walked allah-akbaring around Moscow, it was never reported on central Russian TV, only a few Internet media mentioned it. In a normal country such an extraordinary gruesome murder would be in the headlines for a month at least and the trial would be an all-national event. But she was later practically acquitted due to her alleged "mental illness" and sent back to her country to be treated (read: she will be free in a couple of years). And of course, Putin never mentioned it, but he would rather show a goodwill once more to his Uzbek "dear partners" and he would speak for more Asiatic immigrants, more open borders and more loans.

    In a normal country such an extraordinary gruesome murder would be in the headlines for a month at least

    I’m not sure such a “normal” country exists anymore though…certainly not in Germany. There have been several extremely gruesome cases (inluding murders) of crimes committed by recent migrants which got hardly any attention at all in national media.
    Depressing though that Russia is just the same in this regard.

    Read More
  77. snorlax says:
    @reiner Tor
    Which means that whites (and this includes not only Massachusetts whites, but also Hungarians or even Russians) who have little personal experience with a specific nonwhite group (e.g. Massachusetts whites have little experience with blacks in Ferguson) will be easily convinced by the media that in case of conflicts of this specific nonwhite group with whites living in close proximity to them the problem is the evil racism of those whites.

    The difference seems to be that when it comes to personal experience, Massachusetts whites choose to flee vs. Hungarians/Russians might start to entertain "racist" views. It could be a difference in the quantity and quality of the propaganda effort used to convince them, though.

    Oh, the Hungarians and Russians would flee too. That is, in fact, just what the Russian former residents of the North Caucasus and Central Asia have done. Blacks and Muslims aren’t as inclined towards petty crime as Gypsies, but they more than make up for that with their extreme levels of violence.

    Storytime: On a trip to London (sigh…), as I walk past a Gypsy panhandler, he sticks out his leg to trip and, presumably, rob me, but only succeeds in making me stumble a bit. He shouts after me: “You kick my leg! Now you give me money!”

    Read More
    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    I didn't say they wouldn't flee, in fact, that's what they do in Hungary if a place gets infested with Gypsies.

    But they will mostly become "racists" after that (if they hadn't been ones in the first place), and won't just say "oh, crime was increasing, schools were getting worse, lots of bad students..." They will say instead "the place was getting Gypsified" or "lots of Gypsies at school, beating up other students, we had to take the kids out" or something. And I don't think they will forget it soon.
  78. reiner Tor says: • Website
    @Boris N
    So you even failed to have known that the Hajnal line is nothing about cousin marriages. What else could be discussed if people even fail to read the Wikipedia article about the Hajnal line, not to say the original and its critics?

    Or didn't you know that cousin marriages were and are strongly forbidden by the Orthodox Church, so it was simply impossible? The Orthodox Church even elaborated the highly detailed rules of the levels of relatedness and who could marry whom.

    Well, for one thing, late marriage means that the marriage partners will decide for themselves rather than have their families decide for them. The later the marriage, the more likely for the husband (or even the wife) to have an income or wealth independent of his parents, the more likely for the parents to be even dead (we’re talking about medieval societies here), so the less likely to have an arranged marriage anyway.

    As far as I know, there’s a very nice correlation that inside the Hajnal line, cousin marriage was basically unknown (very few people would want to marry their cousins if they made the decision, probably that’s so in the Arab world, too), while outside the Hajnal line, it was more common. From what I read, yes, it was relatively common in Russia, though of course it probably never reached Sicilian or Syrian levels.

    As to the rules of the Orthodox Church, the Catholic Church had similar rules, yet outside the Hajnal line exceptions were often made, for example in small villages. Or they could’ve married second cousins, which was theoretically forbidden, too, but not as strongly as marriage of first cousins. I know of some ancestors who were in cousin marriages (though I think only double second cousins, not first cousins – two such marriages within the memory of my late grandma).

    Read More
  79. reiner Tor says: • Website
    @snorlax
    Oh, the Hungarians and Russians would flee too. That is, in fact, just what the Russian former residents of the North Caucasus and Central Asia have done. Blacks and Muslims aren't as inclined towards petty crime as Gypsies, but they more than make up for that with their extreme levels of violence.

    Storytime: On a trip to London (sigh…), as I walk past a Gypsy panhandler, he sticks out his leg to trip and, presumably, rob me, but only succeeds in making me stumble a bit. He shouts after me: "You kick my leg! Now you give me money!"

    I didn’t say they wouldn’t flee, in fact, that’s what they do in Hungary if a place gets infested with Gypsies.

    But they will mostly become “racists” after that (if they hadn’t been ones in the first place), and won’t just say “oh, crime was increasing, schools were getting worse, lots of bad students…” They will say instead “the place was getting Gypsified” or “lots of Gypsies at school, beating up other students, we had to take the kids out” or something. And I don’t think they will forget it soon.

    Read More
    • Replies: @snorlax
    But is that what a Hungarian SWPL would say? In America also, even Massachusetts, working-class people will often use less euphemistic terminology if they've got a "safe" audience.
  80. snorlax says:
    @reiner Tor
    I didn't say they wouldn't flee, in fact, that's what they do in Hungary if a place gets infested with Gypsies.

    But they will mostly become "racists" after that (if they hadn't been ones in the first place), and won't just say "oh, crime was increasing, schools were getting worse, lots of bad students..." They will say instead "the place was getting Gypsified" or "lots of Gypsies at school, beating up other students, we had to take the kids out" or something. And I don't think they will forget it soon.

    But is that what a Hungarian SWPL would say? In America also, even Massachusetts, working-class people will often use less euphemistic terminology if they’ve got a “safe” audience.

    Read More
    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    I'd say even highly educated Hungarians will often speak candidly under such circumstances.

    On the other hand, as I wrote, I'm not sure if it's just a function of the quality and quantity of propaganda effort - American anti-racism propaganda seems to be both more effective and more relentless than in Hungary (especially under Orbán), and it might've started earlier. Interestingly I was once reading a local newspaper's early communism editions, and in 1949 I found a news story with the title "Gypsies stole wood", and then the story went on that unknown persons stole some wood, and the police had no traces of the culprits, as there were no witnesses. It was simply assumed (either by the paper or by the police) that they were Gypsies. So, anti-racism wasn't much a part of early communist propaganda, I guess.

  81. reiner Tor says: • Website
    @snorlax
    But is that what a Hungarian SWPL would say? In America also, even Massachusetts, working-class people will often use less euphemistic terminology if they've got a "safe" audience.

    I’d say even highly educated Hungarians will often speak candidly under such circumstances.

    On the other hand, as I wrote, I’m not sure if it’s just a function of the quality and quantity of propaganda effort – American anti-racism propaganda seems to be both more effective and more relentless than in Hungary (especially under Orbán), and it might’ve started earlier. Interestingly I was once reading a local newspaper’s early communism editions, and in 1949 I found a news story with the title “Gypsies stole wood”, and then the story went on that unknown persons stole some wood, and the police had no traces of the culprits, as there were no witnesses. It was simply assumed (either by the paper or by the police) that they were Gypsies. So, anti-racism wasn’t much a part of early communist propaganda, I guess.

    Read More
    • Replies: @snorlax

    On the other hand, as I wrote, I’m not sure if it’s just a function of the quality and quantity of propaganda effort – American anti-racism propaganda seems to be both more effective and more relentless than in Hungary (especially under Orbán), and it might’ve started earlier.
     
    In Massachusetts it's been ongoing for ~180 years.
  82. snorlax says:
    @reiner Tor
    I'd say even highly educated Hungarians will often speak candidly under such circumstances.

    On the other hand, as I wrote, I'm not sure if it's just a function of the quality and quantity of propaganda effort - American anti-racism propaganda seems to be both more effective and more relentless than in Hungary (especially under Orbán), and it might've started earlier. Interestingly I was once reading a local newspaper's early communism editions, and in 1949 I found a news story with the title "Gypsies stole wood", and then the story went on that unknown persons stole some wood, and the police had no traces of the culprits, as there were no witnesses. It was simply assumed (either by the paper or by the police) that they were Gypsies. So, anti-racism wasn't much a part of early communist propaganda, I guess.

    On the other hand, as I wrote, I’m not sure if it’s just a function of the quality and quantity of propaganda effort – American anti-racism propaganda seems to be both more effective and more relentless than in Hungary (especially under Orbán), and it might’ve started earlier.

    In Massachusetts it’s been ongoing for ~180 years.

    Read More
    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    I have once seen a video report on South African crime on a Hungarian website. They asked a Hungarian couple who moved there in the 1980s. They were victims of an armed burglary while they were at home. The black perpetrator pointed a knife on them and demanded the valuables. The couple was highly religious, and the woman told the guy something like "God loves you". The black guy apparently became embarrassed, and awkwardly told the woman something to the effect that he was only doing it because he was poor. Then he left (with jewelry and money). The couple insisted that blacks had been horribly mistreated, so such crime was just payback for it.

    In other words, they were cucks.
  83. reiner Tor says: • Website
    @snorlax

    On the other hand, as I wrote, I’m not sure if it’s just a function of the quality and quantity of propaganda effort – American anti-racism propaganda seems to be both more effective and more relentless than in Hungary (especially under Orbán), and it might’ve started earlier.
     
    In Massachusetts it's been ongoing for ~180 years.

    I have once seen a video report on South African crime on a Hungarian website. They asked a Hungarian couple who moved there in the 1980s. They were victims of an armed burglary while they were at home. The black perpetrator pointed a knife on them and demanded the valuables. The couple was highly religious, and the woman told the guy something like “God loves you”. The black guy apparently became embarrassed, and awkwardly told the woman something to the effect that he was only doing it because he was poor. Then he left (with jewelry and money). The couple insisted that blacks had been horribly mistreated, so such crime was just payback for it.

    In other words, they were cucks.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Hector_St_Clare
    Reiner Tor,

    That's interesting (and I would say in some degree admirable). I'm surprised that they were so religious. To what extent was religion repressed in Hungary during the Communist era?

    I lived in Africa three years in the mid-2000s (with the Peace Corps) and my village had had a Hungarian woman before I came. For a lot of the villagers it was one of the few white people they had had much social contact with. Her husband was a small-time local official who had been educated in Hungary (that country had leaned to the communists in the Cold War) and married a Hungarian woman and brought her back home.
  84. @reiner Tor
    I have once seen a video report on South African crime on a Hungarian website. They asked a Hungarian couple who moved there in the 1980s. They were victims of an armed burglary while they were at home. The black perpetrator pointed a knife on them and demanded the valuables. The couple was highly religious, and the woman told the guy something like "God loves you". The black guy apparently became embarrassed, and awkwardly told the woman something to the effect that he was only doing it because he was poor. Then he left (with jewelry and money). The couple insisted that blacks had been horribly mistreated, so such crime was just payback for it.

    In other words, they were cucks.

    Reiner Tor,

    That’s interesting (and I would say in some degree admirable). I’m surprised that they were so religious. To what extent was religion repressed in Hungary during the Communist era?

    I lived in Africa three years in the mid-2000s (with the Peace Corps) and my village had had a Hungarian woman before I came. For a lot of the villagers it was one of the few white people they had had much social contact with. Her husband was a small-time local official who had been educated in Hungary (that country had leaned to the communists in the Cold War) and married a Hungarian woman and brought her back home.

    Read More
  85. danvolodar says: • Website

    The automatic preference map correlates remarkably strongly with the map of black population numbers in the US:3

    Read More

Comments are closed.

Subscribe to This Comment Thread via RSS Subscribe to All Anatoly Karlin Comments via RSS
PastClassics
Confederate Flag Day, State Capitol, Raleigh, N.C. -- March 3, 2007
The major media overlooked Communist spies and Madoff’s fraud. What are they missing today?
Are elite university admissions based on meritocracy and diversity as claimed?
The “war hero” candidate buried information about POWs left behind in Vietnam.
The evidence is clear — but often ignored