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All elites need some kind of internal disciplinary mechanism for their polity to function.

In traditional societies, it is mainly the aristocracy’s sense of solidarity, noblesse oblige, feudal bonds, the Mannerbund institute. Though I don’t mean to idealize it. It proved completely maladaptive come the industrial age.

In totalitarian regimes, chiliastic ideology and repression/terror plays a major role.

Modern, largely non-ideological populist regimes at odds with GloboHomo – that’s Putin, Orban, etc. – distribute resources or economic “demesnes” to their cronies, creating networks of personal loyalty unbeholden to the global elites – a sort of “counter-elite,” or Dugin’s so-called “patriotic corruption“. One additional “benefit” of such systems is that damning kompromat is available on “defectors” by default. Though obviously this is not the only mechanism. Putinism also has elements of a Mannerbund, as well as more severe punishments.

China has elements of all the above, but with greater load on legitimizing ideology (it is still a Marxist-Leninist state) and on repression.

But how does GloboHomo, Blue Empire, Davos World, ZOG – call it what you will – keep its elites in line?

Western propaganda would have you believe it’s some inherent feature of liberal democracy – the political equivalent of efficient free markets.

Alternatively, the remarkable consolidation of ideology in politics, media, and academia across both the Atlantic and ideological spectrum in decade or two can be explained by requiring some critical number of “Inner Party” members to engage in highly criminal and morally damning “rituals” to advance in station (as Ron Unz has suggested in a recent essay that has suddenly become extremely pertinent). For this mechanism to work, the “rituals” in question must remain strongly taboo. It is rather curious to note that pedophilia is perhaps the one sexual deviation that hasn’t become more “understood” in the past decade, and if anything the converse – even though mutilating children in the name of gender ideology is now all fine and dandy.

The patsy in charge of organizing and taping all this kompromat can enjoy life and be amply rewarded for it, but as we see, he is ultimately disposable so far as the real power brokers are concerned.

They need not worry about exposure. Picus News can be relied upon to divert to Russia. The smol brains on either side will debate whether the #BodyCount is Trump’s or Clinton’s.

 
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  1. Please keep off topic posts to the current Open Thread.

    If you are new to my work, start here.

  2. Alternatively, the remarkable consolidation of ideology in politics, media, and academia across both the Atlantic and ideological spectrum in decade or two can be explained by requiring some critical number of “Inner Party” members to engage in highly criminal and morally damning “rituals”

    Sounds a bit far-fetched, and also raises the question who would organize such an all-encompassing conspiracy. I know many Unz readers would say it’s (((those people))), and I can even imagine that powerful individuals would be targeted like that for lobbyist purposes. But as an explanation for the entire ideological system of today’s West it’s pretty weak.
    Also not sure imo that “pedophilia” is accurate here, as far as I understand it was more about teenage girls. Genuine pedophilia must be a comparatively rare sexual orientation.
    Amusing to watch though, I suppose American politics will become even more unhinged now (Trump has apparently already insinuated the Clintons had Epstein killed).

  3. I think your vision of nobility is a bit all too rosy. The nobles were loyal to the King ( or another higher ranked lord) because they obtained material rewards for their service in exchange of lands, serfs…Nobles were very often rebellious and tried to overthrow their lord if they were not satisfied with the present arrangement. France has in my opinion the richest medieval history of al European countries and the Hundred Years’ War provides plenty of examples of noble betrayal, with the most typical one being the Duke of Burgundy siding with the Angevines against the Capetians.When Louis XIV tried to create a proto modern state by creating the first “absolute monarchy”,he tried to neuter the nobility by turning them into fat cats and relieving them of all responsibilities such as armed service. Whenever a monarch tried to overturn the nobility’s privileges, he surely could expect being stabbed to death. Russian nobles didn’t bother with honor and loyalty when it came to removing Pavel Petrovich from the throne when he abolished some of their privileges. Ultimately power is about distributing wealth to your backers, whether you are in a democracy, dictatorship or monarchy. Democracy just happens to make the process smoother and more discrete. The “patriotic corruption” seems to be an an actualisation of old age feudal bonds to modern day capitalism.

    • Agree: TheTotallyAnonymous
  4. More generally, I find the fixation of many right-wingers on conspiracy theories (“false flags” etc.) somewhat tedious. Not that there aren’t any conspiracies (there probably are), but it seems like a shortcut or a quick fix to me, so one doesn’t have to do hard thinking about the ideology of one’s opponents and why it might appeal to people, or do a serious analysis of organizations and institutions.

  5. Rosie says:
    @German_reader

    Also not sure imo that “pedophilia” is accurate here, as far as I understand it was more about teenage girls.

    No matter. My surmise is that robbing the cradle must remain taboo in any civilized society, enforced (at least in part) for the benefit of honest men who respect girlhood even as the transition to womanhood is underway.

  6. NYMOM says:

    They actually cannot keep people in line. Thus the constant pressure and threats of boycotts, doxing, loss of job, expulsions from school, etc., which generally comes from the left.

    They wouldn’t need so many threats or violence if their ‘people’ geniuinely believed in what they were sprouting.

    Many politicians on the left get into office by promising benefits or extra monies that are ultimately unaffordable for any society to pay off; thus, another feature of the left driving the countries that elect them into debt. Of course, the right or center has to eventually up the ante to stay or keep their own elected offices; so it becomes a never ending loop of each party trying to outbid the other to stay in power.

    But I believe if you bore down into it the cycle actually begins with the left…

  7. utu says:
    @German_reader

    While I share your hesitation to dive deeper into the crazy world of conspiracies I would suggest that you look deeper into yourself and wonder what is holding you back where you are in your life. Turn the subject into the object. Think of petit bourgeois mentality and how come it was deployed so successfully against the majority. You see there are people with ambitions and aspirations greater than you in your modest existence could ever imagine. They can’t be constrained with the petit bourgeois mentality, so there must be something else that both liberate them and constrains them, that makes them eligible for the highest echelons of power and success. Something is holding them together. AK is groping for an answer to what is this ‘something’.

  8. Anonymous[277] • Disclaimer says:

    Alternatively, the remarkable consolidation of ideology in politics, media, and academia across both the Atlantic and ideological spectrum in decade or two can be explained by requiring some critical number of “Inner Party” members to engage in highly criminal and morally damning “rituals” to advance in station (as Ron Unz has suggested in a recent essay that has suddenly become extremely pertinent).

    I don’t think it has to be quite so dramatic. America has a strong puritan streak (and a love of gossip) and if you can “prove” that somebody cheated on his wife, made a racist joke or grabbed a female co-worker’s butt at a drunken office Christmas party, you can thereby effectively end his career. And since basically everybody has done that sort of mildly inappropriate thing, the “kompromat” is already out there just waiting to be found, no need to manufacture it.

    • Replies: @LondonBob
    , @notanon
  9. Nemets says: • Website

    In USA, seems like political partisanship is the main driver of elite discipline, with think tank and contractor sinecures as incentives. A Republican or Democrat with proposals or claims that hurt the party (or the party’s donors) will quickly be reigned in by the rest of the party. If that fails, the GOP/Democrat linked media conglomerates can defame or ignore them, and any chance at a good sinecure vanishes.

    That being said, the Hastert case shows that there are some blackmail cases too. Always wondered if his blackmail was involved in GOP leadership’s support for intervention in former Yugoslavia. The Turks were involved somehow, iirc.

    • Agree: LondonBob
    • Replies: @TheTotallyAnonymous
  10. utu says:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affair_of_the_Poisons
    Affair of the Poisons
    The Affair of the Poisons (L’affaire des poisons) was a major murder scandal in France during the reign of King Louis XIV. Between 1677 and 1682, a number of prominent members of the aristocracy were implicated and sentenced on charges of poisoning and witchcraft. The scandal reached into the inner circle of the king. It led to the execution of 36 people.

    Perhaps the most important effect of the scandal and subsequent persecutions was the expulsion from France of the Countess of Soissons. Her son remained in France, only to find that his mother’s high-profile disgrace prevented him from realising his personal ambitions, as he was effectively barred from pursuing a military career. He would eventually leave France, nurturing a profound grudge against Louis XIV, and enter the service of France’s sworn enemies the Habsburgs. Prince Eugene of Savoy, or Prinz Eugen, would, in time, come to be known as one of the greatest generals of the age and one of the factors behind the failure of Louis’s bid for hegemony in Europe.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Étienne_Guibourg
    Étienne Guibourg
    Accounts suggest that La Voisin performed rituals with a number of priests (including at least one whose work was uncovered by Church authorities, forcing him into exile) as well as Guibourg. It is unlikely Guibourg took part in all of La Voisin’s Black Masses. Nevertheless, upon her arrest, investigators discovered the corpses of 2,500 infants buried in her yard, most likely sacrificed the same way as in Guibourg’s ritual. It was alleged that La Voisin had paid prostitutes for their infants for use in the rituals.

    • Replies: @Anon
    , @Anon
  11. It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones.

    Luke 17:2

    These so-called ‘elites’ are quite literal satanists, and pedophilia is part of their black mass act.

    I doubt most are even sexually attracted to children, they’re just doing it because it’s a required religious rite in their circles.

    • Replies: @notanon
  12. @Nemets

    That being said, the Hastert case shows that there are some blackmail cases too. Always wondered if his blackmail was involved in GOP leadership’s support for intervention in former Yugoslavia. The Turks were involved somehow, iirc.

    Maybe it was blackmail in Hastert’s case, but in the case of all the other US Congressman and Senators, it was aggressive lobbying against Serbs by their enemies. That is, ethnic Croat, Muslim and Albanian representatives or lobbyists to the US government and elsewhere.

    For instance, Mira Ricardel was a literal Croat bitch whose parents were probably Ustashe scum, and yet, she started her career in US politics during the 1990’s as a personal aide to Bob Dole (he lobbied aggressively for US intervention in support of Croats, Muslims and Albanians against Serbs because he was payed to do so). Also, apparently according to the Washington Post, “She developed a reputation as a Russia hawk and was seen as a tough bureaucratic player with a strong personality”.

    Mira Ricardel even became the literal US National Security Advisor to Trump’s administration, until under Melania Trump’s influence, she was fired in 2018. Melania Trump’s dad was a Slovenian Sovok Communist during the Former Yugoslavia, so it was probably personal on Melania’s part to fire her. Mira Ricardel must literally appear to be some random bitch to most of the world, which is why her firing by Melania in 2018 doesn’t make any sense other than in this context.

    Unfortunately, this bitch was fired way too late for it to make a difference. The aggressive international anti-Serb intervention in the 1990’s is much easier to understand when it becomes clear that ethnic groups hostile to Serbs had high level lobbyists and decisive influence over US, European, and world decision makers, and media, while Serbs had absolutely none …

    • Replies: @Epigon
    , @notanon
  13. Epigon says:
    @TheTotallyAnonymous

    It was in Empire’s interest to dismantle Yugoslavia (it’s usefulness as part of Anglo sphere of influence and Kennan’s doctrine of containment had expired, in addition to no longer Croats dominating it politically) and cut Serbs down to size (the only statefounding and potentially sovereign nation in the Yugoslavia, and pro-Russian traditionally).
    They gained completely obedient vassal states, new market for their big business and a ridiculous amount of loot (transition and privatization, Serbia included).

    Ruder Finn and other Western companies were paid handsomely by Croats, Bosniaks to spread anti-Serb nonsense to the extent of framing Serbs as Holocaust perpetrators (Israel and Jews were supressed in this one – they helped secretly and clandestinely) who are doing it again, this time to Croats and Bosniaks. When CNN, Clinton, whole of German political scene, Norwegian social-democrats and others start spouting the same idiotic narrative (victim numbers) and wildly chauvinistic rhetorics – it has nothing to do with lobbying. When Wesley Clark proclaims nation states are undesirable as a pretense for bombing Serbia (most diverse area of ex-Yugo) right after USA destroyed Yugoslavia created ethnonationalist homogenous Slovenia, Croatia, Kosovo and split Bosnia into three ethnic regions – they are obviously taunting us.

    Eliot Engel, Bob Dole, Burchett and other disfigured imbeciles have nothing to do with it.
    The same can be said of idiots paid by Serbs and Serbia to represent Serb interests.
    Geopolitics is a rational discipline, Anglos and Americans had demonstrated perfect grasp of it in the last 400 years.

    Power holders and brokers don’t actually believe in the nonsense and propaganda they authorize – but they are behind it and they obviously did the math – benefits are simply there for USA.

    Noise raised by media, pundits and especially true believer useful idiots can be ignored. One should only browse twitterspher

  14. LondonBob says:
    @German_reader

    https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2017/10/paedophilia-and-politicians/

    Paedophilia is in fact thankfully rare in society. It is notoriously difficult to estimate but medical authorities rate sexual attraction to pre-pubescent children at around 2% of the male population. But that is a figure for those who feel any kind of attraction, not for those who are prepared to act on it. That figure is far, far smaller. But it is very hard to quantify. There are approximately 20,000 convictions per year in the UK, but as the crime mostly happens within families that is certainly an understatement of the incidence. Most of the convictions also involve a family relationship.

    To my knowledge, no significant proportion of the historic allegations against politicians involve their own family members. This makes them part of a still rarer group, those who set out to procure the sexual services of children with whom they have no connection. I do not see any room to doubt that Parliament had, over a period of decades, an incidence of criminals that indulged in this odious pattern of behaviour, that was very much higher than the incidence in the general population.

    I ask again, why? I do not think power and impunity is enough of an answer. They were doing something the vast, vast majority of us would never do, no matter how sure to “get away with it”.

    I can only think of two explanations. The first, and unlikely, is some sort of organisation of paedophiles designed to help each other into parliament. The second and probable explanation is that the desire for political power often reflects a personality disorder which leads to other aberrant behaviour, such as paedophilia.

    It is rather important for society that we come to understand this, as it has severe implications for the way we organise society.

  15. Epigon says:
    @Epigon

    I almost forgot!
    My favourite Croat propaganda investment?

    A court historian!
    Sabrina P. Ramet – a transgendered “Norwegian” “woman” who was born a Mexican man.

    Another “Western expert” and favourite English wikipedia source (on everything, from WW2 to Partisans, to Yugocommunists, Serbs, 1990s – screw the documents and peer-reviewed authors!), who speaks no local language, has never consulted primary sources, has been repeatedly proven wrong, caught falsifying and has been paid by Croatia and granted awards for “quality work”.

  16. @Epigon

    It was in Empire’s interest to dismantle Yugoslavia (it’s usefulness as part of Anglo sphere of influence and Kennan’s doctrine of containment had expired, in addition to no longer Croats dominating it politically) and cut Serbs down to size (the only statefounding and potentially sovereign nation in the Yugoslavia, and pro-Russian traditionally).
    They gained completely obedient vassal states, new market for their big business and a ridiculous amount of loot (transition and privatization, Serbia included).

    Ruder Finn and other Western companies were paid handsomely by Croats, Bosniaks to spread anti-Serb nonsense to the extent of framing Serbs as Holocaust perpetrators (Israel and Jews were supressed in this one – they helped secretly and clandestinely) who are doing it again, this time to Croats and Bosniaks.

    Agree.

    When CNN, Clinton, whole of German political scene, Norwegian social-democrats and others start spouting the same idiotic narrative (victim numbers) and wildly chauvinistic rhetorics – it has nothing to do with lobbying. When Wesley Clark proclaims nation states are undesirable as a pretense for bombing Serbia (most diverse area of ex-Yugo) right after USA destroyed Yugoslavia created ethnonationalist homogenous Slovenia, Croatia, Kosovo and split Bosnia into three ethnic regions – they are obviously taunting us.

    I would only contend that much of this was a combination of a product of lobbying and a large international coalition gathering together, since many of its smaller and weaker parties had something to gain from attacking Serbs. Still, you’re definitely right in that any attempt at Serb lobbying would have been a lost cause to begin with.

    Really, the only thing Serbs had going for them in the Yugoslav wars was being the majority overall population with access to most of the military equipment in Yugoslavia. Milosevic basically completely threw this advantage away when in 1992 he withdrew the JNA from Krajina and Bosnia, instead of sending it to capture Zagreb and other key cities, just like he did with Vukovar in 1991. That is, of course, in order to force Tudjman and the others to capitulate. The moment that Milosevic betrayed the Serbs in those regions (especially with inviting UNPROFOR to Krajina in 1992, and then sanctioning Republika Srpska in 1995) is the moment that it was all basically over and everything else was doomed to happen as it did. The outcome of the Yugoslav wars was already decided in 1991 and 1992.

    Noise raised by media, pundits and especially true believer useful idiots can be ignored.

    Hence the reason why we are both commenting in Anatoly Karlin’s comment section and are at the Unz Review in general.

    One should only browse twitterspher

    Lol, really? Is Twitter where 21st century elites reveal their true form and intent?

    • Replies: @Epigon
    , @Bardon Kaldian
  17. Epigon says:
    @TheTotallyAnonymous

    No, I got cut off during editing – twittersphere is the definite proof that the noise should be ignored.

    • Replies: @TheTotallyAnonymous
  18. LondonBob says:
    @Epigon

    Actually Germany was the driving force behind the dismantling of Yugoslavia, continuing traditional German foreign policy in the region of small fragmented states under German tutelage. Unified Germany was the US point man in the region and so the US went along with it, Clinton, Jewish groups and the arms lobby had their own reasons. Turkey is often overlooked, but they were very aggressively involved and lobbied the US extensively and have their own influence operations.

    https://www.peterbcollins.com/2016/05/04/in-depth-interview-sibel-edmonds-details-the-coverup-of-the-most-serious-crimes-of-dennis-hastert/

    https://washingtonmonthly.com/2015/05/29/dennis-hasterts-money-problem/

    • Replies: @TheTotallyAnonymous
  19. @Epigon

    No, I got cut off during editing – twittersphere is the definite proof that the noise should be ignored.

    Got it LOL (Would’ve slapped it on that comment, but can’t be bothered waiting for the lol to recharge).

  20. LondonBob says:
    @Anonymous

    There isn’t enough of a Puritan streak, politicians are increasingly getting away with all sorts of corruption and misbehaviour.

  21. JackOH says:

    ” . . . [R]equiring some critical number of “Inner Party” members to engage in highly criminal and morally damning “rituals” to advance in station . . .”

    Yep, I’ll go with that. Seen it, know it.

    Jack McCoy, the character played by Sam Waterston in Law and Order compliments his junior colleague, who I think has either perjured herself or suborned perjury to obtain a conviction, “Welcome to the bigs [the big leagues]”.

    (Sorry, only time for a quick comment. As a general rule, the possibility that a political decision has been enabled by criminal or civil misconduct should never be excluded.)

  22. @LondonBob

    Actually Germany was the driving force behind the dismantling of Yugoslavia, continuing traditional German foreign policy in the region of small fragmented states under German tutelage. Unified Germany was the US point man in the region and so the US went along with it, Clinton, Jewish groups and the arms lobby had their own reasons. Turkey is often overlooked, but they were very aggressively involved and lobbied the US extensively and have their own influence operations.

    Epigon never disputed any of this. By the way, Germany was also actually arming Croatia and Slovenia by selling weapons to Croat and Slovenian separatist groups back in the 1980’s, several years before the collapse of Yugoslavia in 1990. Germany also used the Yugoslav Wars as a pretext to justify it’s re-militarization for the first time since 1945 to the world. That is, after the reunion of East and West Germany. Germany claimed it was doing “humanitarian good” in Bosnia and Kosovo with its newly gained military …

    Regardless of Germany, Turkey, and all the other secondary or lesser parties and partners to the international anti-Serb coalition, the USA’s role as the head of NATO and the Empire was decisive. None of the decisions made by the other actors would’ve made much difference if it wasn’t for the actions of the USA. The USA was the ultimate driving force behind the dissolution of Yugoslavia since US Ambassador Warren Zimmerman stated to Milosevic that the USA considered it unacceptable for force to be used against Croat separatists in 1990. Warren Zimmerman also started the Bosnian War of 1992-1995 by persuading Alija Izetbegovic to withdraw his signature from an internationally mediated agreement between Serbs, Muslims and Croats to have a decentralized Bosnia (In other words, to impose Muslim hegemony over Serbs like Izetbegovic had originally hoped to do so). Warren Zimmerman fancied himself as the colonial overlord of the Balkans …

    • Disagree: LondonBob
  23. LondonBob says:

    Sasha Baron Cohen inadvertently showed that incentives matter.

    High level blackmail also helps but we all know what attitudes and behaviours are incentivised.

  24. @TheTotallyAnonymous

    Germany also used the Yugoslav Wars as a pretext to justify it’s re-militarization for the first time since 1945 to the world. That is, after the reunion of East and West Germany.

    The BRD and the DDR were already remilitarised during the Cold War due to perceived military necessity by their respective American and Soviet suzerains.

    In fact, following the end of the Cold War Germany’s army as well as many European nations’ armies fell into neglect.

    • Replies: @TheTotallyAnonymous
  25. @TheTotallyAnonymous

    Germany also used the Yugoslav Wars as a pretext to justify it’s re-militarization for the first time since 1945

    Absolute garbage. During the Cold war both West and East Germany maintained large standing armies (West Germany’s Bundeswehr had a strength of almost 500 000 in 1985, with about 300 000 active soldiers) and had conscription. After 1990 the Bundeswehr was massively reduced and now has below 200 000 soldiers, for all of reunified Germany. There is no “remilitarization”, in fact Germany’s military capabilities have largely been eroded since 1990.
    It’s true that Germany’s decision for recognition of Slovenian and Croatian independence wasn’t coordinated with other European powers and the US. But main driver for the later Kosovo war was Clinton’s administration.

    • Agree: reiner Tor, byrresheim
  26. @Hyperborean

    My bad. Should’ve clarified and written that I meant international military intervention instead of “re-militarization”. As in, that Germany used the Yugoslav Wars to overcome the likely and inevitable objections of its neighbors to Germany engaging in international military interventions (among other things).

    • Replies: @German_reader
  27. @TheTotallyAnonymous

    As in, that Germany used the Yugoslav Wars to overcome the likely and inevitable objections of its neighbors to Germany engaging in international military interventions

    Have there been any independent German military interventions since then? No, it’s always part of some NATO (or sometimes European) mission, where Germany’s “partners”, especially the Americans, always whine that Germany isn’t doing enough.

  28. What keeps the GLOBAL-HOMO US ELITES IN POWER:

    Tucker Carlson:”And if Kamala Harris is elected POTUS on Nov 3 2020…..I will gracefully…and in a respectfull and principled way, disagree with POTUS KAMALA HARRIS’S anti-White Genocidal Policies unlike those RACIST Alt Righters And White Nationalists…..I Tucker Carlson will consent to be governed by POTUS KAMALA HARRIS…..”

    War for Blair Mountain:”DON’T CONSENT TO BE GOVERNED AND RULED OVER BY THE HINDUS!!!….For they will force you to clean the gold-plated toilets of PREET BHARRARA encrusted with curry turd tendrils……..YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED…..” This is the Endgame of consenting to be governed by the HINDU “AMERICANS”…..

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
  29. Group rituals are a common bonding mechanism in many social groups. Mundane organizations like Alcoholics Anonymous, the Boy Scouts, and the Lions Club have such rituals. Taboo, secret rituals are more powerful still.

    The Epstein conspiracy is plausible in that it involves the taboo practice of ordinary sexuality that has been pathologized. Sexually mature teenage girls are sexually desirable and capable of reproduction, but relationships between them and adult men have been severely pathologized (and often criminally forbidden) in the past generation in the United States.

    If you try to have a discussion with normies about hot jailbait girls, they’ll immediately claim that it’s disgusting pedophilia. This has gotten to the point where normies claim a man in his thirties dating a girl in her early twenties is somehow “damaged” because he’s “afraid” of women his own age. Parents now notify the police of “child abuse” when teenage boys get some action from their hot twenty-something teachers. I’m sure those boys are crying themselves to sleep at night…

    Contrary to the musings of various Balkanoid and Eastern European commenters who think Western elites don’t take their own propaganda seriously, they do. Probably most of them believe screwing sixteen year old girls is somehow inherently disgusting and gross. But I would imagine that after enough time spent around bouncy young scantily clad girls, ordinary male sexual urges take over. Another thing worth remembering is that the Baby Boomer generation came of age before such relationships were pathologized. In the 1970s plenty of “famous” groupies weren’t even sixteen.

    As for this being the lynchpin of elite unity in the West, I doubt it. The story of Mossad kompromat makes more sense to me. After all, a figure like Mike Pence is completely immune to this sort of thing yet is a loyal and unquestioning member of the elite.

    Elite unity is maintained by ideology, educational institutions, media propaganda, censorship, socialization, material incentives, class solidarity, the criminal “justice” system and the courts, the threat of assassination, and lately mob pressure as well. This is actually really not that interesting, except perhaps to non-Westerners who don’t understand how our elites can believe in such obvious rubbish.

    More interesting is the tools they use to disrupt the formation of counter-elites that threaten their grip on power. The same tools used to disrupt foreign countries are employed at home. I’m not a public figure, yet on occasion various losers have made efforts to dox me (I’m immune, don’t waste your time).

  30. Epigon says:

    But main driver for the later Kosovo war was Clinton’s administration.

    Completely untrue. As late as 1998 UCK/KLA was on American Terror Organization list.

    BND had been involved with them since 1980s – in fact, more than one “former Bundeswehr” German “volunteer” was embedded with them during the war.

    The KLA itself started as a combined effort of Communist Hoxha Albania and WW2 Shqiptar Fascist auxiliaries’ descendants.
    They specialized in murdering civilians, post workers, ambushing policemen and bombings targeting Serb refugees fleeing from Croatia and Bosnia.

    From the mid-1990s BND started sending weapons and instructors both to Kosovo and Albania – once Albania descended into chaos in 1997 – KLA ranks swelled – prisons were emptied, and in addition to BND, CIA and SAS formed training camps inside Albania and intensified the training. Italians and French joined in – PELICAN.

    Just as in case of Yugoslavia break-up, Americans came in late, calculated the optimum strategy for maximizing their gains and interests and assumed leadership, engaging the turbo mode – first in media, than with bombs and operatives in the field.
    Germany had counted on restoring Slovenia and Croatia to their historical German sphere, but Americans actually swooped in, took over Croatia as early as 1990s and have consolidated their control there to this day.

    • Replies: @German_reader
  31. @War for Blair Mountain

    And how are Americans going to express their wish “not to be governed and ruled over by” Indians? Czolgosz style?

    But in any case, I do find it amusing how it tends to attract “far-right” accusations to point out that neither Harris nor Maximka are entirely like normal black Americans in both their social and ethnic backgrounds.

  32. @Epigon

    Completely untrue. As late as 1998 UCK/KLA was on American Terror Organization list.

    So you want to tell me that Germany somehow succeeded into pressuring an unwilling US to bomb Serbia? How?
    The Americans had already been heavily involved with the Croatian Krajina offensive in 1995 anyway, so supporting Kosovaran separatism wasn’t that big a step.
    What the BND did – no idea. And tbh I don’t care.

  33. Epigon says:
    @Thorfinnsson

    Contrary to the musings of various Balkanoid and Eastern European commenters who think Western elites don’t take their own propaganda seriously, they do.

    Which part of it?
    Do they believe in gas station Russia, or Russia about to conquer Europe one?
    Do they believe in powerless incompetent Russia, or Russia influencing and deciding elections in the West, subverting democracies Russia?
    The Spain/Italy Russian economy, or Russia challenging USA/NATO to such extreme degree that trillion more dollars are needed to counter the Russian threat?

    I stand by my claim that actual people in charge don’t give a shit about nonsense peddled by MSM, social media, think tank tards.

    Elite unity is maintained by ideology, educational institutions, media propaganda, censorship, socialization, material incentives, class solidarity, the criminal “justice” system and the courts, the threat of assassination, and lately mob pressure as well. This is actually really not that interesting, except perhaps to non-Westerners who don’t understand how our elites can believe in such obvious rubbish.

    And who exactly constitutes USA elite?

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    , @reiner Tor
  34. Epigon says:
    @German_reader

    No, just as in case of Yugoslavia break-up, the Americans hit multiple birds with one stone. Guerilla war was already taking place by 1998 and 1999, so Americans took the leadership role and settled things in a way that suited them best.

    Blocking German influence was one of them. They are really good at this, with minimum involvement and expenditures they gained the whole Balkans where empires of the past wasted countless lives and resources.

    • Replies: @silviosilver
  35. @Epigon

    Which part of it?
    Do they believe in gas station Russia, or Russia about to conquer Europe one?
    Do they believe in powerless incompetent Russia, or Russia influencing and deciding elections in the West, subverting democracies Russia?
    The Spain/Italy Russian economy, or Russia challenging USA/NATO to such extreme degree that trillion more dollars are needed to counter the Russian threat?

    I stand by my claim that actual people in charge don’t give a shit about nonsense peddled by MSM, social media, think tank tards.

    They believe in all of this.

    Some of this is of course contradictory, which doesn’t really matter since it’s not like human belief is logical or consistent. The particular inconsistency between the powerless, incompetent Russia and Russia poised to conquer Europe is neatly explained by the alleged fecklessness and weakness of our European allies. This then provides a convenient pretext for massive arms spending as well as badgering American allies to increase their own armaments expenditures.

    This was all very neatly on display in the aftermath of the sad collapse of the ridiculous Russiagate conspiracy theory. The complete absence of evidence has in no way diminished the belief of Russian interference in the 2016 elections nor that Trump is an agent of Putler. Lately the so-called left has taken to branding the bland Republican Senate Majority Leader, Sen. Mitch McConnell, as “Moscow Mitch”.

    And who exactly constitutes USA elite?

    Powerful politicians, federal judges, billionaires (oligarchs), Big Law partners, Fortune 500 CEOs, the big five banks, key think tanks and NGOs, organized Jewry, media organs and their controllers (both owners and key executives), tenured elite university professors, big oil, the military-industrial complex, intelligence agencies, ethnic lobbyists, etc.

    • Replies: @Epigon
    , @iffen
  36. dfordoom says: • Website
    @Thorfinnsson

    Your explanation is much too plausible and common-sense to get any traction around these parts.

  37. red says:

    As I said before, if Globohomo elites are so hard to hit, why not hit their logistics and support troops instead, like how submarines in WW2 went after slower merchant ships instead of well armed and fast warships like cruisers and battleships.

  38. Epigon says:
    @Thorfinnsson

    They put up a show for the plebs. Information available publicly is worthless – money and power revolve around privileged and secret info.

    Everything being thrown around and claimed in the open is predominantly nonsense, virtue signaling, posturing and empty rhetorics.

    I would narrow the elite to political, intelligence and military – moneyed individuals are at the total mercy of above mentioned.
    I find it hard to believe that USA long term strategy was shaped by lobbyists, CEOs and journalists. Or Jews, as a matter of fact. USA has had too much success and too rapid a rise in the last 2 centuries.

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    , @reiner Tor
  39. @Epigon

    You’re projecting the mentality of your own corner of the world onto America.

    There’s no difference in the show for the plebs and what elites believe in the West. Remember that we’re talking about an inner-Hajnal elite whose historical condition is high trust, non-kin cooperation, and religious fanaticism (Protestant zeal now replaced with globohomo).

    Take for instance the unguarded clip of Gordon Brown:

    In an unguarded moment you can see he sincerely believes that opposition to immigration is simply bigotry.

    Publicly available information is quite useful. In the 1950s the KGB station chief in New York City considered his most valuable intelligence resource to be the Scientific-American magazine.

    Military elites in the conventional sense do not exist in the United States. Officers might as well be eunuchs. They have to toe the party line in order to get promoted and to secure lucrative sinecures after being cashiered.

    Moneyed elites who choose to wage a private war against the powers that be will find themselves targeted by the “system”, but those who choose to play along accumulate power which they use to pursue both their own personal interests and those of the system.

    The US doesn’t have a long-term strategy anymore than any other country does. Probably less since power breeds complacency and infighting. The Jews have almost nothing at all to do with America’s rise to power, but quite a lot to do with America’s current destructive foreign and social policies.

    • Replies: @silviosilver
  40. @Thorfinnsson

    Group rituals are a common bonding mechanism in many social groups. Mundane organizations like Alcoholics Anonymous, the Boy Scouts, and the Lions Club have such rituals. Taboo, secret rituals are more powerful still.

    Well then, what else is the NATO and international aggression and attack on ethnic Serbs and Serbia in the 1990’s besides a group ritual of criminal, illegal and barbaric aggression against a sovereign people?

    NATO qualifies as a formerly mundane organization ultimately responsible for this group ritual. NATO truly revealed itself as the North Atlantic Terrorist Organization with its behavior in the 1990’s. Literally every participant in this group ritual from Iran to the USA is still eager to keep up the lies, propaganda and manipulated half-truths about the Yugoslav Wars. Every single participant in this group ritual deserves to be permanently cursed for as long as they maintain their lies, propaganda and continued efforts to destroy Serbia and Serbs …

  41. @German_reader

    What the BND did – no idea. And tbh I don’t care.

    Tbh, I don’t care about the Cologne mass rapes. I also don’t care about the replacement of native Germans by browns, blacks and Muslims.

  42. @Hyperborean

    In anyway they….THE HISTORIC NATIVE BORN WHITE AMERICAN WORKING CLASS MAJORITY…sees fit…

    It all starts with NOT CONSENTING TO HINDU “AMERICAN RULE”…..

    Within the borders of the US…There are now two Nations:One nonwhite…the other White….And they hate each other…..The Nonwhite Nation is just more open about it…..There are irreconcilable differences on the SAME SHARED LIVING AND BREEDING SPACE…..I mean, it’s become very primal…primate….gut level…

    Interestingly, Jimmy Stewardt’s Anthropologist daughter wrote a very interesting book how lowland gorilla bands solve their tribal differences:warfare….It is hardwired into our brains via evolution……CIVIC NATIONALIST CUCKS are in for a very rude awakening….as are the Alt Right Partition Enthusiasts…

    The ANTIFA….White Leftists…White Liberals are very much on to do something:THE ENDGAME IS MASS EXPULSION!!!…The only question is which Race-based Nation gets to experience MASS EXPULSION out of off of the US……FIRST!!!!….And, The Democratic Party Debates makes it very ver clear,that, White Liberals…backed by massive White Oligarch Power…..have launched a pre-emptive strike against THE HISTIRIC NATIVE BORN WHITE AMERICAN WORKING CLASS MAJORITY in the direction of MASS EXPULSION into a corrugated aluminium shack in a desolate corner of Idaho surrounded by the real “Americans” descended from the current Chobani Muslim “American” Workforce…in Idaho

    • Replies: @Anon
  43. @TheTotallyAnonymous

    This thread isn’t about Serbs and their real or imagined suffering, but about Western elites ritually raping and murdering children, so the Jews and masons can blackmail them.
    Maybe they take special delight in tormenting Serbian children (who knows? Are there a lot of missing children in Serbia?), but so far nobody has shown any connection between Epstein and Kosovo. Maybe you should ask Ron Unz to look into it.

    • LOL: iffen
  44. @German_reader

    No, this thread is about elites in general. That is, how they function, especially in the context of disciplining themselves to continue with their activities. Just because you’re a German cuck, it doesn’t mean you have to ignore the broad potential range of discussion under the pretext of such a topic …

  45. Please don’t bore me to death with the “WHO BUMPED OFF JEFFREY EPSTIEN” Conspiracy theories….If anyone was down at his RAPE RESORT…they were RAPING Russian teenage girls…We know more than enough right now for indictment in the COURT OF PUBLIC OPINION…

    So this perp list includes:Bill Clinton….Alan Dershowitz…Hillary Clinton…Physcists Kip Thorne…Lisa Randall….And Steven Hawking(Perhaps the fit Rock Climber Lisa Randall held down these Russian Teenage girls to help Steven Hawkins get his jollies….)…It’s what White American Liberals do…..

  46. @TheTotallyAnonymous

    Balkanoid narcissism.

    Not everything is about your cursed corner of Europe.

    • Replies: @TheTotallyAnonymous
  47. 4rw says:

    Is there theory as to why modern elites might want to spread degeneracy among the masses and the bourgeois and the masses? After all Republican Roman elites were very conservative and spread their conservative Roman values called gravitas among the populace, and likewise medieval nobility were very conservative and spread Christianity by the sword if necessary, like what happened in the Baltics, and Victorian and Edwardian elites were also conservative, which encouraged conservative behavior among the Victorian middle class.

  48. @Thorfinnsson

    Balkanoid narcissism.

    Not everything is about your cursed corner of Europe.

    It’s a shame my LOL hasn’t reloaded yet.

  49. @Epigon

    It was in Empire’s interest to dismantle Yugoslavia (it’s usefulness as part of Anglo sphere of influence and Kennan’s doctrine of containment had expired, in addition to no longer Croats dominating it politically) and cut Serbs down to size (the only statefounding and potentially sovereign nation in the Yugoslavia, and pro-Russian traditionally).
    They gained completely obedient vassal states, new market for their big business and a ridiculous amount of loot (transition and privatization, Serbia included).

    The funny thing is that this is also the opinion of one of CNN‘s and Time Magazine‘s best-known commentators, Robert Baer, yet few people seem to care.

    When did you arrive in Yugoslavia and what was your first job?

    I first arrived by helicopter with 3 other agents on 12 January 1991 in Sarajevo. Our job was to keep an eye on the supposed Serbian terrorists who were due to attack Sarajevo.

    Who were supposed to be the terrorists and why would they be expected to attack Sarajevo?

    They were given information about a group called “Serbian Supreme” and their plans to attack key buildings in Sarajevo with the desire that Bosnia would leave Yugoslavia.

    Was there such a group, and what did you actually do in Sarajevo?

    Such a group never existed and we had been tricked by our central command. We were tasked with warning people and spreading panic amongst the politicians in Bosnia . Basically we just filled their heads with the idea that the Serbs will attack. Initially we were taken with the story but eventually realised that we were spreading stories and fear about a group that did not exist.

    How long did this operation last and what was it called?

    For me it lasted for two weeks because then I received orders to go to Slovenia on another job. The operation continued for another month after and the code name was “Istina” which is exactly what it was not.

    Why did you go to Slovenia?

    There I was told that Slovenia was getting ready to declare its independence from Yugoslavia. I was given money, several million dollars with which we would finance non-governmental organisations, opposition parties and politicians all of whom were prepared to spread and incite amongst the population.

    Given these propaganda activities what sort of opinions did you have of the CIA and what did your colleagues think?

    Of course you do not refuse a task given to you by the CIA especially at that time when everybody was jumpy and given to paranoia. Many agents and high ranking officers had disappeared because they had refused to work on propaganda against the Serbs in Yugoslavia. I personally was shocked at the amount of lies being perpetrated by the CIA and the US politicians. Many CIA agents worked in propaganda but were not entirely aware of what they were doing as they would be involved with just one facet of the project and only those who could piece together the whole picture knew the aims of the work and they were the politicians.

    So there was only propaganda against the Serbs?

    Yes and no. The propaganda was aimed to divide the republics and to ensure that the states are separated from the mother of Yugoslavia. We had to choose a sacrificial lamb that could be blamed for everything. Someone who would be responsible for the war and the violence. Serbia was chosen because it is in some ways the successor of Yugoslavia.

    Can you name the politicians from the former Yugoslavia that received money from the CIA?

    Yes, although this is delicate. Stipe Mesic, Franjo Tudjman, Alija Izebegovic, many advisors and members of the government of Yugoslavia, and also Serbian generals, journalists and even some military units. For a time Radovan Karadzic was paid but stopped taking the help when he realised he would be sacrificed and charged with crimes in Bosnia. He was played by the U.S. administration.

    You mentioned the financing and control of the media, how did this take place?

    It is already known that some CIA agents were responsible for writing the official statement that news anchors would read. Of course the news readers did not know anything as they received their instructions from their bosses who received instructions from his boss who was our (CIA) man. There was one overall task and that was to incite hatred and nationalism through television and for differences between the people to really stand out.

    Srebrenica which we are all aware of. Can you say something about that situation?

    Yes, from 1992 I was in Bosnia again, but this time we had to train military units representing Bosnia, the new State which only just declared its independence. Srebrenica is an exaggerated story, and unfortunately many people have been manipulated by it. The numbers of the people killed there were all part of the political marketing. My boss who had previously been in the US Senate had several times told me that there would at some point be a big con in Bosnia. A month before the supposed genocide in Srebrenica he told me that this town would be known around the world and we were instructed to inform the media. When I asked him why he said I will see. We received an order that with the newly-formed Bosnian army we should attack the houses and people of Srebrenica. Of course the Serbs followed suit as they would have been incited and paid to do so also.

    Who could it be responsible for the genocide in Srebrenica?

    Simply the deaths in Srebrenica were due to the Bosnians, the Serbs and the Americans, us! But the blame for everything is laid at the feet of the Serbs. Unfortunately many of the victims were buried as Muslims and yet they were Serbs or other nationalities. A few years ago a friend of mine, a former CIA agent and currently working in the IMF said that Srebrenica was a product of an agreement between the U.S. government and politicians in Bosnia. Srebrenica the city was sacrificed because after the alleged crimes of Serbs, the America had a reason to attack.

    Why do you think that Yugoslavia broke up and why did your government want to have its role in this?

    Everything is clear, people who had quietly instigated the war and loudly shouted about the peace are now the owners of the companies that exploit a variety of mineral resources and the like in that land! Simply, they made slaves of you, your people are working for free and the products are going to Germany and America, they earn! In the end you have to pay to import what you have made yourselves and since you have no money you must take out loans. It’s the story with the whole of the Balkans!

    You have not been active in Kosovo as a CIA agent, but was there some pressure from the United States?

    Of course! Kosovo was taken for two reasons, firstly because of mineral and natural resources, and secondly, the Kosovo military base NATO! In the heart of Europe is their largest military base.

    Do you have any message for the people of the former Yugoslavia?

    I have. Forget your recent past it was staged and faked. You have been manipulated and they got what they wanted and it would be stupid for you to still hate each other. You have to be stronger and to show that you are aware what has happened and who was responsible. I sincerely apologise and this is why I have for a long time now been exposing the secrets of the CIA and the White House.

    https://www.revolutionarydemocracy.org/rdv20n1/cia.htm

    Knowing that this happened in the former Yugoslavia, we can be quite sure that similar strategies were employed in the former Soviet Union to make it as fractured as possible. I’m thinking of Ukraine, especially, but also of separatist causes that never quite took off, such as that in Tatarstan.

    • LOL: silviosilver
    • Replies: @German_reader
  50. @Swedish Family

    Revolutionary Democracy is a half-yearly theoretical and political journal published in April and September from India. It contains materials on the problems facing the communist movement, particularly relating to Russia, China and India, the origins of modern revisionism, the restoration of capitalism in the USSR and developments in the international communist movement.

    Sounds like commie garbage. It should be possible to hold a critical view of the role of outside powers in the Balkan wars without succumbing to the fanciful idea that Balkan nationalists did what they did just because imperialist-capitalist powers paid them to do so, and otherwise everyone would have gotten along peacefully in multiculti socialist paradise.

    • Agree: Mr. Hack
  51. Mitleser says:
    @4rw

    Is there theory as to why modern elites might want to spread degeneracy among the masses and the bourgeois and the masses? After all Republican Roman elites were very conservative and spread their conservative Roman values called gravitas among the populace

    Republican Roman elites did also stop doing that and embrace degeneracy.

    • Replies: @4rw
  52. Sounds like commie garbage.

    Perhaps, but that’s the publication asking the question, not the former CIA agent answering them. In case you are wondering, he puts forth the exact same view in interviews with Western-oriented publications:

    Robert Baer, a former CIA agent, talked about the disintegration of the former Yugoslavia in the 90’s.

    Baer claims that then he and his colleagues received millions of dollars to influence politicians and to cause the splitting-up of the former Yugoslavia.

    “We bribed parties and politicians who were encouraging hatred among nations,” stated Baer.

    He also emphasized that one US senator told him during the war that Srebrenica will be the biggest news on the world’s front pages.

    “He even told us that we can already start establishing contacts with the media,” said Baer.

    This former CIA agent was arrested multiple times in recent years because he was revealing confidential state secrets. So far, he has published several books about the CIA, Bill Clinton and George W. Bush.

    “I arrived in Sarajevo for the first time on the 12th of January 1991. I came by helicopter with three other agents. Our task was to observe Serbian terrorists who were supposed to attack the city. We got the information that there will be a number of terrorist attacks in the city due to the intention of B&H to withdraw from the former Yugoslavia. But that was a lie, our bosses had lied to us. Our primary task was to spread panic that there would be attacks among politicians,” said Baer.

    He stated that the mission lasted for two weeks, and then he went to Slovenia for a new mission.

    “The entire operation lasted for a month and it was named ‘The Truth’,” said Baer.

    He added that his team received several million dollars to fund non-governmental organizations, opposition parties and politicians who promoted hate in Slovenia, which was ready for independence.

    “The aim of propaganda was to split up Yugoslavia,” said Baer.

    He also emphasized that those who caused the war are today owners of companies, which are using natural and other resources of the former Yugoslavia.

    “They made slaves out of you. Now you have to import from other countries, and since you do not have money, you have to borrow it. This is the very essence of the story about the Balkans,” said Baer.

    At the end, he invited people of the Balkans not to hate each other and to forget the past, which was just part of one great show.

    https://www.sarajevotimes.com/former-cia-agent-claims-they-gave-us-millions-to-split-up-yugoslavia/

    That article is from Sarajevo Times, which writes this about itself:

    Apart from that, the goal of this project is to ensure sufficient media coverage related to the membership and possible accession of BiH to the European Union. We want to focus on the analysis of every diplomatic step that BiH takes or should take on her path to the EU.

    We will also try to take the initiative of focusing on individuals or groups who may try to jeopardize, disable or slow down the process of the Euro- Atlantic integrations of BiH.

    • Replies: @German_reader
  53. @Swedish Family

    Robert Baer is a strange guy, he says lot of weird stuff, e.g. this:
    https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2006/04/17/the-iran-plans

    Robert Baer, who was a C.I.A. officer in the Middle East and elsewhere for two decades, told me that Ahmadinejad and his Revolutionary Guard colleagues in the Iranian government “are capable of making a bomb, hiding it, and launching it at Israel. They’re apocalyptic Shiites. If you’re sitting in Tel Aviv and you believe they’ve got nukes and missiles—you’ve got to take them out. These guys are nuts, and there’s no reason to back off.”

    (in recent years he seems to have changed his tune on Iran, no idea why).

    Was there American, German etc. involvement in the break-up of Yugoslavia? Of course, the role of outside powers was certainly quite negative at times. Does that mean Yugoslavia wouldn’t have broken apart otherwise? I doubt it, imo it was a flawed construct.
    But tbh I have no interest in discussing this any further, the topic of depraved elites raping children in satanic orgies is a lot more interesting.

  54. Was there American, German etc. involvement in the break-up of Yugoslavia? Of course, the role of outside powers was certainly quite negative at times. Does that mean Yugoslavia wouldn’t have broken apart otherwise? I doubt it, imo it was a flawed construct.

    I think you are still being too indulgent. Baer makes quite clear that the CIA’s aim was to play divide and conquer by giving as loud a voice as possible to the most extremist elements in the former Yugoslavia. How is this is even remotely defensible?

  55. @Thorfinnsson

    Take for instance the unguarded clip of Gordon Brown:

    How exactly was that “unguarded”? Opposition to immigration – even mere skepticism – is routinely portrayed as bigoted by the media. Seems to me he was just using the same language in private as he would in public.

    Unguarded would be if some black guy demanded Brown promise to commit resources to “fighting racism” and then in the car he said “Who put me next to that stupid nagger? Who’s idea was that?”

    In an unguarded moment you can see he sincerely believes that opposition to immigration is simply bigotry.

    He quite likely does believe that opposition to immigration is simply bigotry, but his calling that woman bigoted does not prove it. He may even have had private misgivings about immigration himself, but as a good politician, he may have simply known that being associated with immigration opponents was a bad look for his campaign.

  56. Cyrano says:

    But how does GloboHomo, Blue Empire, Davos World, ZOG – call it what you will – keep its elites in line?

    In hockey is called protecting the puck, in capitalism it should be called protecting the buck(s). Once you have them – the bucks, everything you do as elites, all the schemes, democracy, think thanks, all roads should lead to that principal doctrine – protecting the buck.

    The degeneracy happens because the main principle of the game gets overemphasized and as a result the main goal is achieved, but everything else stars to fall apart. Having played the same game for too long, the Capitalists lose sense of when it’s time to relax the rules little bit, because doing so goes against the main principle.

    The main fear of Capitalists is socialism, so some of the ways they invented in order to combat it – are exactly GloboHomo and 3rd world immigration. Those policies protect the buck(capitalism), but they destroy countries, societies and civilization.

    In capitalist minds those are synonyms, without capitalism, it’s not worth having a country, society or civilization. And now the degeneracy comes a full circle. Maybe capitalism will be the last to go, while everything else around it collapses, but will it be worth it? Because in order to function, capitalism still needs a country, society and civilization, because it’s less important than all 3 of them and it’s destroying them.

  57. Anon[225] • Disclaimer says:
    @War for Blair Mountain

    Go back to Ireland you drunk bum.

    • Replies: @BengaliCanadianDude
  58. @Epigon

    Serbs mostly have themselves to blame. They massively fumbled the dissolution of Yugoslavia. No group’s hands were clean in the ensuing wars, but somehow Serbs managed to get themselves depicted as the prime villains despite the cachet of having been on the “right” side of WWII and victims of genocide themselves (even allowing for exaggerations of Jasenovac numbers), while their opponents’ nationalisms were often resurrecting fascist-era symbols and slogans, and Croatia’s president was even a holocaust revisionist. That is some serious ineptitude!

    But of course the problem goes back to Serbian nationalism itself, which was the main driver of Yugoslav dissolution. Some of it was an understandable response to Albanian and Croatian secessionist agitation, but it went way beyond this. The standard western narrative of the Yugoslav conflict is basically correct here. When Serbs early on went on the offensive and seized large portions of territory in Croatia and Bosnia and started deporting people, western liberal elites were always going to identify Serbs as ethnic oppressors, even without the aid of ethnic lobbies.

    The smart way to play it would have been to refuse to initiate violence and allow Serbs to be victimized. If the regimes in Zagreb and Sarajevo refused to cooperate and play their assigned role, charges of ethnic intimidation could always be manufactured, given the aforementioned WWII associations. Serbs could then have produced their own version of a Haris Silajdzic figure to wow and woo western liberals. With enough suffering, Serbs may even have been allowed to eventually send in the tanks and grab some Croat/Bosnian territory and do a bit of ethnic cleansing themselves, Oluja-style. (Happy 25th anniversary!) In that scenario, there probably would have been no question of western countries allowing Albanian separatists to seize Kosovo.

    All this would have required that the lesson Serbs learned from WWII was that if ethnonationalism gets out of hand, it can get very ugly, so therefore it is best to rein it in. Instead, being unregenerate balkanoid retards (Thornfinsson’s quite right about this, even if it hurts to hear it), the “lesson” that Serbs learned was that their own side didn’t get a large enough share of the spoils, and they wanted to make up for it.

    • Troll: TheTotallyAnonymous
    • Replies: @BengaliCanadianDude
  59. Epigon says:

    I will now demonstrate utmost respect for our host, the topic of the thread, the posters I look forward to reading – and NOT respond to the cretin above and his off-topic excrements.

    It would be nice if everyone followed suit. It would do wonders for post quality outside Open threads, and save others from Balkan, Ukr-Rus bickering no one is interested in.

    • Agree: TheTotallyAnonymous
    • Replies: @byrresheim
    , @byrresheim
  60. ITT:

    People who don’t have a clue about how and why the ex-YU broke up, and a couple of Serbs who are as usual, completely full of shit (especially when it comes to the role of Germany).

  61. Anon[297] • Disclaimer says:
    @utu

    Interesting, thanks for the links.

    One must supposed that fallen nature being what it is, isolated instances of occultism/satanism/ritual murder have occurred always. By aberrant individuals or smallish groups. The Thuggees come to mind as a tribal, large group.

    We know also of some cultures where ritual murder was a central and defining characteristic, like the Syrian city-states, the aztecs and perhaps the Harappa.

    The Epstein case makes one wonder what percentage of “elites” are perverted, and in what direction they are perverted. What would happen if “elites” decided to worship —one way or another—the ancient gods of lust and terror? Astaroth and Baal, indeed.

    Exorcists speak of increased organized satanism amongst the educated and influential. But could those people even believe in something?

  62. Anon[297] • Disclaimer says:
    @utu

    Interesting, thanks for the links.

    One must supposed that fallen nature being what it is, isolated instances of occultism/satanism/ritual murder have occurred always. By aberrant individuals or smallish groups. The Thuggees come to mind as a tribal, large group.

    We know also of some cultures where ritual murder was a central and defining characteristic, like the Syrian city-states, the aztecs and perhaps the Harappa.

    The Epstein case makes one wonder what percentage of “elites” are perverted, and in what direction they are perverted. What would happen if “elites” decided to worship —one way or another—the ancient gods of lust and terror? Astaroth and Baal, indeed.

    Exorcists speak of increased organized satanism amongst the educated and influential. But could those people even believe in something?

  63. @4rw

    Because a system created by perverts selects for perverts……and it gets entrenched…..

  64. By explicitly raising the question of whether elite kompromat is the glue that holds western neoliberalism together, Anatoly Karlin actually helps us put it in perspective. Evidently it is a phenomenon – deployed by a Bush family member against Donald Trump, on the eve of the 2016 election, let us not forget. But if, with The Saker, we designate western ideology as “Anglo-Zionist”, I would tend to think that it is primarily Anglo-Zionist money which maintains elite discipline, with Anglo-Zionist kompromat being a decidedly secondary phenomenon.

  65. @Anon

    Agreed. He always seems to go on these weird rants all the time, and none of them are ever written properly, or coherently. Now he’s complaining about a pretty rational and generous CEO who employs White americans, and who has pledged to give 10% of the company stock to said white americans. He also complains about Preet Bharara who is a litigator who fights against corruption to the best of his ability and power.

    • Replies: @Dan Hayes
  66. @silviosilver

    Still, it was definitely not okay for NATO to start indiscriminately bombing civilian infrastructure. Lots of innocent people died too, and many of their deaths could have been entirely prevented

  67. Max Payne says:

    The patsy in charge of organizing and taping all this kompromat can enjoy life and be amply rewarded for it, but as we see, he is ultimately disposable so far as the real power brokers are concerned.

    If half the things I read about Epstein is true how can such a man not have reach even after his demise?

    I’m even more astonished there aren’t any conspiracy theories that he faked his own death. Considering how readily people claim “false flag/staged event” on almost everything based on flimsy ticky-tack shit.

    I guess we just need to wait and see if any videos get “leaked” anonymously. If not then Epstein is a special type of retard to have once wielded such blackmail material and not have a dead mans switch for it all.

  68. It is funny to see you reference “Picus News”, that’s exactly how I referred to CBS News when discussing the recent, tragic, suicide, with someone.

    On a whim I looked up CBS’ coverage of the event, curious to see how they were spinning it. I’ve got to say, I’m almost in awe of their skills, absolute masters.

    Try to watch this clip and not immediately lose interest in the subjet: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d1vAGzeCE1k

    They frame the story in an unclear, dull way. What is Epstein accused of? What, briefly are the leading pieces of evidence? The normie viewer is not told; no salacious details, no pictures of the teen whores he ran, no mention of the powerful men he entrapped. They’re not trying to get attention, they’re trying to bury it.

    Then we get to the really masterful stroke: the fuzzy phone call with the expert reporter. Why can’t CBS News of all organizations get a video feed and clear audio? Because that would keep your attention. Instead an uninteresting South Asian reporter woman is talking to some fuzzy voice, with a weird foreign name, about some case. The audience is lost, and that’s the point.

    • Replies: @Mitchell Porter
  69. NYMOM says:

    “Always wondered if his blackmail was involved in GOP leadership’s support for intervention in former Yugoslavia.”

    No, it was just more virtue signaling.

    Like President Trump with that whole A$AP idiot in Sweden…instead of just ignoring the whole situation and letting the Swedes handle it, Trump had to intervene and pressure the Swedes to release him…BTW, A$AP didn’t even have the common courtesy in his tweet thanking everyone for his release to mention Trump as the primary motive for the Swedes releasing him back to the US, probably to commit more acts of crime and mayhem over here.

    Thanks Sweden.

    So Trump’s virtue signal was for nothing…by the end of the week the media was still blasting him as a racist…and so it continues.

  70. Dan Hayes says:
    @BengaliCanadianDude

    BengaliCanadianDude:

    I don’t want to rain on your parade but I’m a little suspicious about brother Preet Bharara. Superficially his professional resume seems impressive, but let’s wait to find out if he’s a dedicated civil servant or just another partisan hack? I lean to the latter based on his behavior on being replaced by Trump! As I recall, he refused to take the President’s phone call, petulantly stating that it would be a conflict of interest – gimme a break!!

    BTW, I enjoy your comments as their perspective is a welcome UR addition!!!

  71. dfordoom says: • Website
    @4rw

    Is there theory as to why modern elites might want to spread degeneracy among the masses and the bourgeois and the masses?

    To demoralise them and make them easier to control? To destroy the family because it’s an alternative focus of loyalty? To encourage a culture of consumption and hedonism which is good for the corporate bottom line?

    Plus if you accept the bioleninism theory those degenerates will be loyal foot soldiers of the elites?

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
  72. @Thorfinnsson

    If you try to have a discussion with normies about hot jailbait girls, they’ll immediately claim that it’s disgusting pedophilia. This has gotten to the point where normies claim a man in his thirties dating a girl in her early twenties is somehow “damaged” because he’s “afraid” of women his own age. 

    True.
    Also, a symptom of this society’s sickness.

  73. 4rw says:
    @Mitleser

    Well if elite concentration is unavoidable, how can it be incentivised in a way which disincentivices deviancy, which was how elites functioned before the 60s? And about giving low status people status, giving some low status people high status might be less bad than giving other types of low status people high status, for example, giving straight women, or rural Southern white men and women, or talented tenth conservative blacks, or socially conservative Asian people like Twinkie a higher status than they did in the 30s may be a good idea, if only in order to expand the size of the conservative demographics, and is a lot better than giving gays and other sexual deviants, or 70 IQ blacks a high status in the power structure, or a butch black lesbian transexual. And about types of Marxism, some types of Marxism are preferable to others, if that is your only choice, for example, the Soviet geriatric Cominterm run by people like Brezhnev and Andropov, for all of its downsides, is at least still livable, and not not utterly disgusting like the present day Hominterm, and even Karlin pointed this out in the Soviet freezer theory.

    • Replies: @dfordoom
  74. 4rw says:

    I mean since society is inherently hierarchical in nature, isn’t there a way steer the system towards elite systems that are less harmful in nature compared to Globohomo, as I said, the old Cominterm, feudalism, European style absolute monarchy, and a quasi theocracy run by a Confucian scholar gentry class is preferable to the present neoliberal Globohomo system.

    • Replies: @dfordoom
  75. neutral says:
    @German_reader

    I agree that making everything a conspiracy theory is foolish, but you are going to obviously going to dismiss the idea that jewish control of all levers of power as a “conspiracy theory”. I don’t call this a conspiracy theory because jews are very openly in control of the mass media, politicians, censorship, global finance rules etc. They don’t do this because they are having secret meetings, they openly celebrate this is many mainstream outlets.

    They like to push the narrative that simply spotting jewish control is a conspiracy theory as an easy way to dismiss those that say jews controlling these things is bad for white people.

    • Replies: @dfordoom
  76. 4rw says:

    sorry to be such a grouch, but isn’t Spandrell talking about a social loser like himselg, he seems to be of above average intelligence, but clearly isn’t good at using that to make a lot of money, and is stuck as a dissident right writer, so he is in effect talking about himself, sounds like an incel too.

    • Replies: @The Big Red Scary
  77. @dfordoom

    A simpler theory is the elite liberation explanation for the sixties and its aftermath.

    Elites themselves wanted to engage in degeneracy, and this filtered down to the rest of society. This came first–look at Nelson Rockefeller for instance.

    Elites have the discipline to enjoy libertine lifestyles without suffering too much damage, proles do not.

    Clamping down on degeneracy would crimp their own lifestyles, and would in any case be “wrong”.

    I don’t buy the argument that this was done for economic consumption. Families buy all kinds of things.

    The bioleninism theory is good, but it probably wasn’t obvious to anyone sixty years ago that today there’d be a caste of sexual perverts who would be loyal foot soldiers for the regime.

    The one sinister motive that does make a lot of sense as being part of a master plan is mobilizing women into the full-time permanent workforce (women have always worked). This also specifically took propaganda to accomplish.

    • Replies: @4rw
    , @dfordoom
    , @Beckow
    , @iffen
  78. @German_reader

    Good comment. Americans seem to have trouble when it comes to getting the definition of words or phrases correct. “Pedophile” does not mean a man who goes after 16-year-olds.

    Similarly, “single mother” does not connote divorced women or war widows. It means an unmarried woman who had a child.

    I blame the lousy school systems for all this. Muddled definitions mean muddled thoughts and that’s exactly what the system wants — a bunch of flawed thinkers who get everything wrong, so that can be taken advantage of by the One Percent.

  79. 4rw says:
    @Thorfinnsson

    So what is the reason why older elites like the Victorian elites, Confucian scholar gentry, or medieval nobility might espouse socially conservative ideology?

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    , @Philip Owen
  80. @4rw

    I don’t follow Spandrell closely, but if I recall correctly, he said some years ago that he runs his own business and that he was getting married. I understood his blog to be some kind of intellectual hobby. Moldbug also had a job, a wife, and at least one kid, and clearly was having an enormous amount of fun writing Unqualified Reservations.

  81. @German_reader

    But as an explanation for the entire ideological system of today’s West it’s pretty weak.

    Of course it isn’t “pretty weak.”

    There is, after all, a reason the Church once described certain heresies as “Judaizing” heresies.

    In 1890, La Civiltà Cattolica published a work called ‘On the Jewish Question in Europe’

    This work argued that any country that abandons its Christian rulers to follow democratic passions will inevitably come to be ruled by the Jews and/or by ideologues permeated with the anti-truth revolutionary spirit inherent in Talmudic Judaism.

    Those who disagree simply have not studied enough of or the right kind of Western philosophy and history. It takes some combination of ignorance, dishonesty, or cowardice to be unwilling to face up to facts.

    More people ought to watch the excellent Coen Brothers film ‘A Serious Man.’ This film shows what life can be like for those people who find themselves within the Jewish religion but without the power of the Jewish elites. Jeffrey Epstein just provided us with another example.

  82. @German_reader

    That fact that you can merely write “there probably are” (emphasis mine) conspiracies is just laughable.

    Conspiracies are a common part of human existence for more average people. That’s why we have criminal charges with names like, oh, I don’t know, “conspiracy to commit….”

    You just can’t bring yourself to admit that political elites commonly practice them too. Why wouldn’t they?

    I would actually be perfectly willing to agree that an obsession with conspiracy theories is bad and totally tedious.

    On the other hand, you tend to go too far the other way. “Probably” there are conspiracies? Good grief, that’s dramatically loonier than being a conspiracy theorist!

    Finally, Ron Unz’s Our American Pravda series is by no means kooky, although some people didn’t like the World War Two stuff because he’s clearly sympathetic to Nazism. But whatever. Stop being a cuck about this issue. It’s tedious!

  83. dfordoom says: • Website
    @4rw

    And about types of Marxism, some types of Marxism are preferable to others, if that is your only choice, for example, the Soviet geriatric Cominterm run by people like Brezhnev and Andropov, for all of its downsides, is at least still livable, and not not utterly disgusting like the present day Hominterm, and even Karlin pointed this out in the Soviet freezer theory

    .

    Agreed.

    • Replies: @Swarthy Greek
  84. dfordoom says: • Website
    @4rw

    isn’t there a way steer the system towards elite systems that are less harmful in nature compared to Globohomo, as I said, the old Cominterm, feudalism, European style absolute monarchy, and a quasi theocracy run by a Confucian scholar gentry class is preferable to the present neoliberal Globohomo system.

    Marxist societies seem to go though brief periods of craziness (the Soviet Union under Lenin, the Cultural Revolution in China) but then they realise that they have to construct functional societies and the craziness gets quietly dropped. Marxist elites learn that reality trumps theory. Our current elites seem to be incapable of understanding this.

  85. @4rw

    The source of their wealth was more closely connected to the moral health of the toiling classes.

    Christianity as the dominant religion/ideology also meant one’s own social status was partly tied to good moral behavior.

  86. dfordoom says: • Website
    @neutral

    I don’t call this a conspiracy theory because jews are very openly in control of the mass media, politicians, censorship, global finance rules etc.

    When you look at the people in control of those areas the non-Jews seem to be pretty much the same, and just as bad, as the Jews. The feminists are perhaps worse than the Jews. We have evil crazy elites.Whether a member of the elites is Jewish or not doesn’t seem to be the crucial factor.

    • Replies: @neutral
  87. dfordoom says: • Website
    @Thorfinnsson

    A simpler theory is the elite liberation explanation for the sixties and its aftermath.

    Elites themselves wanted to engage in degeneracy, and this filtered down to the rest of society

    Yeah, that’s quite possible. Or maybe the elites always did engage in degeneracy but they used to be discreet about it.

    There’s a reason people used to talk about bourgeois morality. Because the aristocracy weren’t really into morality. They were into doing whatever the hell they liked as long as they didn’t do it in the streets and frighten the horses (and the peasants).

    So maybe now our modern elites are becoming more aristocratic in their mindset. And they’re no longer worried about frightening the horses.

  88. Beckow says:
    @Thorfinnsson

    …Elites themselves wanted to engage in degeneracy, and this filtered down to the rest of society.

    I agree, but it leaves the question why did post-modern elites – starting in 60-70’s in the West – let go off all constraints, public image, and eventually collapsed into the current mindless advocacy of degeneracy. We are about 10 years away from making degeneracy compulsory and that’s unique by historical standards.

    I believe another dynamic has played a role: one thing that elites always desire is impunity – in effect to be safe in their elite status. Traditional and early Marxist elites were brutally competitive and would use any transgressions (even of a family member) to destroy a rival, often physically. For most of history it wasn’t physically safer to be an elite member than a commoner.

    What changed? Maybe the WWI-WWII carnage and the elite blood-letting in endless ‘revolutions’ has created an elite that is very scared and highly values complete impunity. That’s why they hate so much any fellow elite members who are non-conformist and destabilising, e.g. Trump. They fear change because it could cost them personally.

    But the elite nirvana of impunity that has been created as a self-preservation device has led to a massive spread of degeneracy – if there are no consequences, why not do what one feels like? Or even aggressively advocate it? No elite member is removed any longer for degeneracy or because they are a bad example – so they do it. And it is hard to police the commoners once the elites refuse to police themselves.

    And here we are – it will take a shattering event to break out of the West’s degeneracy cycle. The enforcement rituals might or might not exist for a small subset of the elite, but the numbers are impossible for it to be a general principle: too many elite people, too much chance for loose talk. The problem is ideologically deeper than a few sick rituals.

  89. iffen says:
    @Thorfinnsson

    Elites have the discipline to enjoy libertine lifestyles without suffering too much damage, proles do not.

    Bullshit! They have the resources to buy their way out of or otherwise recover from bad decisions.

  90. iffen says:
    @Thorfinnsson

    organized Jewry

    What other kind is there?

    • Replies: @silviosilver
  91. @Beckow

    starting in 60-70’s in the West – let go off all constraints, public image, and eventually collapsed into the current mindless advocacy of degeneracy

    ‘Mindless advocacy of degeneracy’ dates to much, much earlier than the 1960’s. This started during the so-called ‘Enlightenment’, at the latest. (But really even before than. The Albigensian Crusade wasn’t over trifling doctrinary issues or petty power struggles.)

    • Replies: @utu
    , @Beckow
  92. utu says:
    @anonymous coward

    The Albigensian Crusade wasn’t over trifling doctrinary issues or petty power struggles.

    Yes and no. Doctrine is always of utmost importance. But good that you brought it up.

  93. @iffen

    Organized Jewry refers specifically to the Jewish organizations which promote Jewish interests (as they interpret them) – AJCongress, AJCommittee, ADL, JINSA and so on (and on and on). Not every Jew is affiliated with one of these organizations, so these would be members of that “other” Jewry you’re inquiring about.

    • Replies: @iffen
  94. iffen says:
    @silviosilver

    would be members of that “other” Jewry you’re inquiring about.

    The “inquiry” was rhetorical. Politically, the “other Jewry” that you describe is of no consequence.

    • Replies: @silviosilver
    , @reiner Tor
  95. @Beckow

    I agree, but it leaves the question why did post-modern elites – starting in 60-70’s in the West – let go off all constraints, public image, and eventually collapsed into the current mindless advocacy of degeneracy.

    Because they fully bought into the idea that all repression was bad. There never was any conspiracy, just a huge paradigm shift in how the elite thought about the mind and the body (both should be subject only to the barest of constraints) and the organization of a healthy society. This is all laid out very well in Adam Curtis’ classic documentary series The Century of the Self. (The name of the third episode says it all, really: “There is a Policeman Inside All Our Heads; He Must Be Destroyed”.)

    • Replies: @Beckow
  96. Beckow says:
    @Swedish Family

    Repression and societal consequences are two sides of the same coin. In my view the idea that all ‘repression’ is bad leads directly to demand for impunity. This is very utopian, but we now see what it leads to. As with all utopian thinking, it is really dreaming about a bottomless hellish pit.

  97. Beckow says:
    @anonymous coward

    …This started during the so-called ‘Enlightenment’, at the latest.

    Dreaming up hyper-permissive societies probably goes back deep into pre-history. What I think was new (or relatively untried before) was the impunity that appeared in the 60’s and 70’s. Even in small ways there were no longer any consequences – e.g. useless males who were cads and refused to raise their children (or to have any), or divorced people – were often penalised previously by a loss of standing. Today we are at the point that this kind degeneracy is celebrated. I have no problem with anyone living out their dreamy life, or throwing it away, but a well-run society keeps irresponsible people away from real influence. I think that is the difference after the 60’s from Enlightement.

    The way Cathars were dealt with shows how healthy societies used to deal with degeneracy, elites or not.

  98. @iffen

    Hence the usefulness of a term to describe the Jewry that, politically, is of consequence, which would be Organized Jewry.

  99. @4rw

    Medieval English mobility were totally depraved. So we’re their 18th C ancestors. These things seem to go in cycles. When inequality rises, so does elite depravity.

    • Replies: @dfordoom
  100. @iffen

    Then I propose that when you criticize the collection of these Jewish organizations you can just write “Jewry.”

    I think that it’s not accurate that way, and apparently many other commenters feel the same, but it’d be fun reading your criticism of “Jewry.”

    • Replies: @iffen
  101. An iSteve comment on the Epstein suicide watch:

    The main job of a psychiatrist is to prescribe medications, not to give therapy. In prisons this means mostly antidepressants, sometimes anxiety drugs, and sometimes antipsychotics and mood stabilizers. The psychiatrist will also order lab work to make sure that the medications are not destroying the health of the inmate.

    Because of the potential for abuse of drugs in prisons, which are full of criminals, the list of drugs available is usually a pretty limited list and if you want stuff like sleeping pills, you are right out of luck. You may be in acute pain, but you will not be getting Oxycontin–your prison dentist will probably stop at Motrin.

    Things like levels of depression and suicide potential are usually assessed in a pretty perfunctory way using checklists of symptoms, that may be completed by someone other than the psychiatrist, like a “psych specialist” who may have a degree of some sort in psychology plus experience, but often not a PhD level clinical psychologist.

    Symptoms of depression could include loss of appetite, weight loss, lack of sleep, poor performance in school, failure to cope with living with other inmates and being away from their mama.

    A lot of inmates who declare they are suicidal have secondary gain motives, for example they want to get away from their current residential wing because they owe money to another inmate, or they will claim to be suicidal because they are angry that they did not get a phone call from home, or their baby mana dumped them by phone, or something of that nature.

    An inmate will claim that he is suicidal because he heard from home that his 5-year-old sister had died, but when social workers or psych specialists check up, they find he received no call from home, and that there has been no death in his family. At this point he is probably dismissed from suicide observations and gets a disciplinary report for making a false report.

    So the prison mental health system is not really set up to deal with high profile cases like that of Epstein, and is easily fooled by someone like Epstein as it is used to dealing with lowlife dickheads.

    Being on suicidal observations is pretty much like being punished–no personal belongings, no recreation, eating finger foods, wearing a skirt or a tough canvas jumpsuit, having someone eyeballing you 24 hours per day, even when shitting and pissing–and this is no doubt partially intentional so as to discourage false claims of feeling suicidal–so a psychiatrist probably would not want to keep a charming and pleasant man like Epstein on suicidal observation for long if he denied a suicidal plan and promised to call for his psych specialist if he felt like harming himself.

    That’s the view from Lake Wobegon, where all the comments are above average.

    • Agree: AP
  102. @reiner Tor

    Well, seems legit except for the fact that Epstein was America’s most important prisoner. Don’t buy the dumb midirections and false equivalencies.

  103. Anonymous[277] • Disclaimer says:
    @reiner Tor

    Agree with anonymous coward; Epstein was high profile and required a much higher level of scrutiny. I understand this protocol for the next random suicidal inmate (maybe), but Epstein should not have been allowed to go anywhere or do anything without a set of eyes on him even if he was allowed to wear regular clothes. Nothing makes any sense. For example, why would somebody at such high risk (a celebrity AND a sex offender) ever have a cellmate, as Epstein reportedly did?

    Epstein had every reason to be suicidal; the prison had no reason to leave him alone unsupervised. The whole thing is rotten to the core.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    , @utu
  104. neutral says:
    @dfordoom

    Most of the organizations that rule (Hollywood, internet censorship, mass media, mass entertainment) are over 50% jewish in the key positions, that means the organization culture is overwhelming determined by jews. The non jew elites are forced to emulate the behaviour of the jews, they may be pretty much the same but they are absolutely not the ones in charge.

    Do you think that if say feminists decided that supporting BDS was good for female rights they would ever have a chance to win that battle against the Israel lobby?

    • Replies: @dfordoom
  105. @Anonymous

    High profile prisoners don’t have a different set of rules. They might be treated differently due to corruption or biases, but that’s a different thing. The suicide watch was not done by some hyper-competent intelligence agency, but by ordinary underpaid unionized prison wards who are used to literally sleep on the job.

    You all are basically begging the question: first assume that the guy was an important clog in a vast conspiracy, and then proceed from there to “prove” that he was a conspirator, when in fact he could’ve been a bullshitter who had some whores. Maybe all those important and rich clients made sure he didn’t make videos of their short-lived romances with the underage girls. Apparently the claim that he had videos of lots of rich and powerful guys came from Virginia Roberts, who is a highly unreliable witness, to say the least, and probably only reported what Epstein told her. (Sure, the super-conspirator told his 17-year-old whore about his super-secret schemes.)

    I think that there are some conspiracies, but most bad things are out in the open, like Jews “conspiring” openly to change US foreign policy. These are transpiracies rather than conspiracies. The elites are highly incompetent, and believe most of their own ideology.

    • Agree: dfordoom
  106. @Epigon

    You are assuming too much. We in fact have a few historical examples.

    The leadership of Nazi Germany consisted of literal Nazis, and they literally believed in Nazism. They didn’t bullshit the hoi polloi, to the point of many of them literally fighting to the death or committing suicide along with their Führer. Did Goebbels, the propaganda mastermind, lie? Sure, he did. But at the core, he didn’t: he mostly believed the ideology himself.

    The leadership of the USSR is an even better example. In the 1930s Molotov and Stalin wrote lots of letters, cables, etc. to each other. In none of those documents do they ever mention fabricated evidence or shooting innocents. Their communication is in fact disturbingly consistent with a sincere belief that they were executing hundreds of thousands of “traitors.” Whenever someone intervened in favor of a high profile specialist needed for the Soviet economy or military (especially in 1941 needed for the war economy and the reorganization of the military), Stalin always seems to have inquired whether the person in question had confessed or not. Those who hadn’t, had a good chance of Stalin deciding that maybe they were innocent, after all. But those who had confessed had slim chances. Why would Stalin do that if he knew that all accusations were bogus?

    Another example is the late USSR. By the 1970s the USSR leadership had ample information about how the American economy was pulling ahead of them, and how they couldn’t keep up in the technology race. The KGB prepared reports for the Politburo about American high technology and how it was years or even decades ahead of Soviet technology, and how a lack of incentives (i.e. communism itself) was often to blame for that. And yet the language of the late USSR leadership implies that they kept talking Marxist-Leninist lingo among themselves. They never seemed to question Marxist-Leninist ideology. This, by the way, is one big reason why Gorbachev was such a fool. He was probably a sincere Marxist-Leninist believer, and didn’t understand that the system (and the country itself0 was only kept together by brutal violence, or the explicit and implicit threat thereof.

    Even in less modern cases, where the thoughts of the elites are less well documented, we have little reason to doubt that for example medieval kings believed in Christianity, or Chinese mandarins in Confucianism.

    Why do you think Western elites are any different? They obviously mostly believe their own ideology.

    Do they believe in gas station Russia, or Russia about to conquer Europe one?
    Do they believe in powerless incompetent Russia, or Russia influencing and deciding elections in the West, subverting democracies Russia?
    The Spain/Italy Russian economy, or Russia challenging USA/NATO to such extreme degree that trillion more dollars are needed to counter the Russian threat?

    I don’t know truly elite people (except by a very broad definition of the word), but I know many highly intelligent people who believe all of these points. What makes you think that it’s impossible for the elites to believe them simultaneously?

    • Agree: iffen, Anatoly Karlin, Beckow
    • Replies: @Beckow
    , @Swedish Family
  107. @Epigon

    USA has had too much success and too rapid a rise in the last 2 centuries.

    They had an empty continent all for themselves undisturbed by any powerful rivals. It would have been difficult for them to screw it up. Arguably they might yet manage to do that with the ever increasing multi-kulti craziness.

  108. notanon says:
    @German_reader

    Sounds a bit far-fetched, and also raises the question who would organize such an all-encompassing conspiracy.

    the banking mafia are parasitic – their continued existence requires the corruption of the political system.

    it’s no different from Al Capone corrupting Chicago politics just on a larger scale.

  109. notanon says:
    @Anonymous

    America has a strong puritan streak (and a love of gossip) and if you can “prove” that somebody cheated on his wife, made a racist joke or grabbed a female co-worker’s butt at a drunken office Christmas party, you can thereby effectively end his career.

    except it didn’t for most post-war history because it depended entirely on whether the media decided to report it or not – hence why control of the media is so important as they can cover up whatever they don’t want people to know.

    social media has made it possible for regular people to go around the media wall and accuse people the media had protected.

    (imo it’s one of the reasons GOP politicians are so pathetic – they know the media will destroy them for any slip-up whereas Dem politicians know they’ll be protected.)

  110. iffen says:
    @reiner Tor

    I think that it’s not accurate that way, and apparently many other commenters feel the same, but it’d be fun reading your criticism of “Jewry.”

    Jews are, as a group, one of the most, if not the most, organized (organizing) groups in the world and have been for a long time. They literally have ten thousand and one organizations centered upon Jews and Jewishness. That’s why I have written that “the alt” needs to take a few pages out of their book. They have a modern problem in that what it means to be Jewish has evolved to mean, for all practical purposes, being a Zionist. I accept that there are some “Jews” who are not motivated by Judaism, nor do they have any connection to other Jewish people or organizations, in which case, it is difficult for me to consider them as “Jews.”

  111. notanon says:
    @anonymous coward

    I doubt most are even sexually attracted to children, they’re just doing it because it’s a required religious rite in their circles.

    sociopaths get a kick out of transgressing taboos and getting away with it.

    i think that’s a large factor – the worse the taboo the bigger the buzz they get from transgressing.

  112. notanon says:
    @TheTotallyAnonymous

    Maybe it was blackmail in Hastert’s case, but in the case of all the other US Congressman and Senators, it was aggressive lobbying against Serbs by their enemies.

    part maybe but US politicians wouldn’t have paid much attention to that if it wasn’t also being pushed by the globalist faction

    • Replies: @AP
  113. notanon says:
    @Epigon

    another factor was the empire’s problems in the middle east and wanting to negate hostile “crusader” propaganda by siding with muslims against christians.

  114. @reiner Tor

    You all are basically begging the question: first assume that the guy was an important clog in a vast conspiracy

    What? No. The guy was at an immense risk because his case is so important, with a boatload of media attention. Of course prison authorities take risk and notoriety into account.

    Nobody said anything about a ‘conspiracy’ yet, though letting such a prisoner die points at willful negligence, and, indeed, a ‘conspiracy’.

    …when in fact he could’ve been a bullshitter who had some whores.

    Doesn’t matter. But being in the media spotlight does.

    • Replies: @AP
  115. AP says:
    @notanon

    Clark had a Methodist mother and a Jewish father. His Jewish father died when he was two years old, his mother remarried a Christian who formally adopted him, and he was raised as a southern Baptist in Arkansas. He wasn’t even told of his Jewish descent when he was a kid.

    • Replies: @neutral
    , @Beckow
    , @notanon
  116. AP says:
    @anonymous coward

    What? No. The guy was at an immense risk because his case is so important, with a boatload of media attention. Of course prison authorities take risk and notoriety into account.

    You would be surprised at how they don’t (and, how low level workers doing multiple overtime shifts have the capability of f*cking up, even on seemingly important cases).

    The fact that you take this position is itself evidence that the position you take is probably wrong, given your track record of being wrong most of the time, on everything.

    I wouldn’t completely rule out a conspiracy, given the sheer number of powerful people with strong motives involved in this case. But it’s likely just mistakes and incompetence.

    How many low level, not trustworthy types in the prison system will have to keep their mouths shut for the rest of their lives if the conspiracy is true? If there area lot of fatal accidents and above -average suicides involving prison staff chances of a conspiracy increase. But don’t hold your breath.

    • Replies: @anonymous coward
  117. neutral says:
    @AP

    Does not matter, being jewish is ultimately a racial identity, their “religion” was simply a set of rules they created to protect their race.

    Clark is jewish, he gets automatic Israel citizenship because of his race, if it is good enough for Israel to consider him a jew then it should be good enough for you.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  118. Beckow says:
    @AP

    …Clark had a Methodist mother and a Jewish father.

    Yet he was one of the most evil man of the late 20th century, a true low life.

    Do you know who else is a Methodist? Yep, Hillary. The freaky quasi-Welsh do-gooders with their schoolmarmish piety, ugly women, and prematurely aged men. When one digs into American-led malevolence there always is a sh..t-preaching Methodist there somewhere.

    • Replies: @AP
    , @Philip Owen
    , @utu
  119. Beckow says:
    @reiner Tor

    …Western elites are any different? They obviously mostly believe their own ideology.

    True, in stable times ideology and greed always combine, from church hierarchy to communists, from oligarchs to mullahs. I heard stories about latter-day commie apparatchiks complaining about the lazy proletarians because their tennis courts were dirty. (Then they figured out that they can go and play in the West and the rest is recent history.)

    …I know many highly intelligent people who believe all of these points.

    Intelligence is about an aptitude and ability to think. It doesn’t actually account for a major part of mental life that is observing and seeing what is around us. Only when engaging one’s intelligence with reality we get some understanding.

    My experience with higher IQ, yet die-hard “Russians are meddling and invading” people is that they choose not to care to apply critical thinking. It either mostly benefits them in some way or they simply don’t care enough. In that way modern Russophobia – I don’t know a better term – is different from traditional hatreds like fearing Illuminati, Papists, Anglo oligarchs or anti-Semitism. With those there is an element of magic, all-powerful and largely invisible forces, people put a lot of thought into it, almost too much. But the hatred of Russia that has so spectacularly blossomed in the last 5-10 years is a throw-away and unexamined emotion – it is at its core very intellectually lazy. The willfully unexamined nature of Western Russophobia is what makes it so dangerous – it nicely matches the emerging shallowness in all areas of Western civilisation.

  120. AP says:
    @Beckow

    Surprisingly, I agree with you here. Generally true comment about Methodists. The young Bush, responsible for the Iraq war, was a convert to Methodism (by his Methodist wife). Though Hillary was not ugly, just average. Neither was Laura Bush ugly.

    Clark can be explained by his being a Methodist, not by his being of Jewish descent.

    • Replies: @Beckow
    , @Matra
    , @Hyperborean
  121. Beckow says:
    @AP

    ….Surprisingly

    Why would it be surprising? If we would agree on everything we would be mentally ill :).

    One point: Hillary was below-average and dropping fast. A Methodist preachy woman has to be above-average to be bearable and she clearly wasn’t for Bill.

    Laura Bush killed a teenager when young (she was drunk in a car), a very Methodist crime. They pray and then they kill, absent-mindedly and with no remorse. An essence of American Empire. But she was ok looking, Texas girls usually are.

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
  122. @Beckow

    Laura Bush killed a teenager when young (she was drunk in a car), a very Methodist crime. They pray and then they kill, absent-mindedly and with no remorse. An essence of American Empire. But she was ok looking, Texas girls usually are.

    Perhaps it is just the short haircut, but I have the impression that she would look a lot more handsome as a man.

    • Replies: @Swedish Family
  123. dfordoom says: • Website
    @neutral

    The non jew elites are forced to emulate the behaviour of the jews,

    It could be argued that starting in the early 19th century Jews started to emulate the behaviour of our home-grown western elites.

    The question is whether there’s a particular mindset that is characteristic of elites in general and of our modern elites in particular that was always going to turn out this way. Keep in mind that the undermining of western European Christian society began in the 18th century, at a time when the elites were almost entirely gentile.

    In Australia we have very few Jews. Our elites are exactly the same as yours. Our film industry is just as Woke. Our cultural elites are every bit as crazy. You don’t need Jews to end up with hostile crazy elites.

  124. dfordoom says: • Website
    @Philip Owen

    Medieval English mobility were totally depraved

    Were they really? I’m not saying you’re wrong but what do you base this claim on?

    • Replies: @Philip Owen
  125. Dmitry says:
    @neutral

    If a person is Christian or Hindu (in their religion), then are not allowed to immigrate to Israel by Law of Return criteria, despite having Jewish nationality or roots. E.g. https://www.timesofisrael.com/stymied-by-bureaucracy-a-ukrainians-3-year-aliyah-limbo/

    And descendants would technically lose their right to immigrate to Israel by Law of Return, if you converted to another religion.

    In reverse, if one of your grandparents had converted to Judaism, then you would be eligible to immigrate to Israel, even if you yourself are the atheist.

    I.e. Someone from 100% Christian ancestry, who had one grandparent who converted to Judaism, would be eligible to immigrate to Israel by Law of Return, even if they themselves are atheist.

    So Law of Return depends on religious criteria, but can be passed to the grandchildren. At the same time, it is lost by converting to another religion.

    Weird about Israel’s immigration structure, is that religious criteria only applies to one person for each family who immigrates.

    Theoretically, Putin’s daughters could probably immigrate to Israel (they seem to have Jewish ancestors through their mother). If they immigrate to Israel, they would have to say they are atheist (if they say they are Christian, they would be banned). However, Putin could himself then immigrate if his daughters would, and be religious Christian without being banned.

    Or Trump’s daughter could immigrate to Israel (she is converted to Jewish), and then Trump and Melania Trump would be eligible for immigration. They could be Christian, and would be allowed to immigrate through her – but if Trump’s daughter said she was Christian, they would all be banned.

    This is how they create permanent employment for Israeli immigration lawyers.

  126. @reiner Tor

    Why do you think Western elites are any different? They obviously mostly believe their own ideology.

    They sure do.

    To understand the Epstein saga, it helps to know what the Western elites believed in when he came of age in the 70s. In Sweden, the hight point of postwar libertinism was the 1976 Sexual Crime Inquiry (set in motion four years before, so its suggestions are more reflective of the zeitgeist in 1972), which recommended that incest be decriminalized, that the age of consent be dramatically lowered, that most cases of pedophilia go free of punishment, that harassment and “mild” rape go unpunished (e.g. when the woman “was letting herself in for it”), and that the penalty for “severe” rape be mildened. When its recommendations were published in 1976, however, the public mood had already swung in the opposite direction, and it suddenly saw fierce criticism (especially from feminists). But the spirit in which it was conceived, I think, lived on well into the the new millennium, which is why the #metoo campaign sometimes seemed such a clash of cultures.

  127. @Hyperborean

    Perhaps it is just the short haircut, but I have the impression that she would look a lot more handsome as a man.

    Not bad looking by any stretch, but the very definition of a plain Jane. Bush the Younger, on the other hand, must have been an absolute ladykiller.

  128. @dfordoom

    In Australia we have very few Jews. Our elites are exactly the same as yours. Our film industry is just as Woke. Our cultural elites are every bit as crazy. You don’t need Jews to end up with hostile crazy elites.

    There you have it. 🙂

  129. @AP

    You would be surprised at how they don’t

    Pop quiz on critical thinking: if it was O.J. Simpson instead of Epstein, do you think anybody would have let him die?

    How many low level, not trustworthy types in the prison system will have to keep their mouths shut for the rest of their lives if the conspiracy is true?

    Can you read? Try reading my comment again.

    Precisely zero will have to keep their mouths shut. The conspiracy is aiding and abetting wilful negligence, something that the diverse prison guard posse is naturally apt to engage in anyways.

    Or do you think killing Epstein required a crack team of Mossad navy elephants? It’s not rocket science.

    • Replies: @AP
  130. Matra says:
    @dfordoom

    Australia follows America’s lead even more than Britain. It’s political and cultural elites are well down the food chain. If America flipped and went full ethnonationalist Australia would probably go the same way within a decade.

    • Agree: reiner Tor
    • Replies: @dfordoom
  131. Matra says:
    @AP

    The Iraq war was a Methodist war! Jewish neocons were just scapegoated by a notoriously anti-Semitic American media and public. Glad that’s cleared up.

    • Replies: @Beckow
    , @Cyrano
    , @AP
  132. Matra says:

    In Wesley Clark’s case he probably wasn’t motivated by his later discovered Jewishness – or Methodism. Clark was a long time notorious brown-noser who said and did what he had to to advance his career. He even started schmoozing with Michael Moore and the anti-war Dems when the Iraq war became unpopular in his ill-fated run for the presidency. Obviously being a brown-noser in the US means toeing the Jewish line on most issues, most of the time, but in Clark’s case it was just naked ambition not ethnic Jewish interests.

    • Replies: @silviosilver
  133. @AP

    United Methodist Church
    Bishop Sharon Brown Christopher of southern Illinois, president of the Council of Bishops, wrote to President Bush on Feb. 6, saying that “we pray that every possible means to prevent war will be pursued in the coming days. This is not a moment for haste but rather for deep thoughtfulness and prayer. It is a moment to reflect upon the well-spoken concerns of our allies around the world. The welfare of our human family depends on it.”

    Religious Groups Issue Statements on War with Iraq [19th March 2003]

    https://www.pewforum.org/2003/03/19/publicationpage-aspxid616/

    The only ones supporting the war are the Jews (though Reform Jews hesitantly) and Southern Baptists.

    In response to Beckow’s strange accusation about Methodists not caring who they kill:

    In the United Methodist Church’s Book of Discipline – the denomination’s constitution – two things are deemed “incompatible with the teachings and example of Christ:” war and homosexual practices. And while many United Methodists serve in the military, the denomination has largely stood by its constitutional opposition to war since Operation Iraqi Freedom began in 2003.

    https://www.christianpost.com/news/united-methodist-bishops-renew-opposition-to-iraq-war-3929/ [November 2005]

    • Agree: utu
    • Replies: @Beckow
  134. Beckow says:
    @Matra

    …The Iraq war was a Methodist war!

    Yes and no, depends how deep you want to go. There are certain mainstream American Protestant denominations, Methodism specifically, that combine ignorance of the world, preachiness, self-affirmed humanism, American exceptionalism, and a disregard for consequences of their actions. You can detect this tendency way back and it has grown over time.

    Of course others, from Jewish neo-cons to endless other ethnic lobbies take advantage of this. But there is also something wrong with the people they take advantage of, their inability to be normal is what is at the core of modern American dysfunction.

    There would be no war on Iraq without both neo-cons and their ‘Methodist’ enablers. Or on Yugoslavia, Syria, etc… Don’t let the ignorant, clueless, and yet superbly self-confident Methodist do-gooders of the hook. It takes two to lie.

    • Replies: @Matra
  135. Epigon says:

    USA – Christian Right is neither.

  136. @Matra

    but in Clark’s case it was just naked ambition not ethnic Jewish interests.

    No room for any actual personal convictions in this view, I take it.

    • Replies: @Matra
  137. @Beckow

    Err, sorry about that. A wealthy female relative married Charles Wesley and bankrolled his preaching thereafter although she herself never entirely converted remaining a Primitive Methodist. My part of the world has contributed an unfair share of leading edge Protestants.

  138. Cyrano says:
    @Matra

    I don’t know if Iraq was a Methodist war, but I know why it was attacked. Because the 9/11 “conspiracy” demanded that an Arab state should be attacked – any Arab state would do. Iraq was attacked because among other reasons, the neocons thought that Iraq had a proven quality of a punching bag, based on the “successful” 1st Iraq war in 1991. Boy, where they wrong.

    • Replies: @utu
  139. utu says:
    @Anonymous

    “The whole thing is rotten to the core.” – Absolutely, and reiner Tor is full of crap. Epstein Affair seems to make some characters here at UR to show their true colors.

    http://www.unz.com/pgiraldi/jeffrey-epstein-rip/#comment-3389295
    In looking over a couple of these Epstein comment-threads, it’s interesting to notice that various regular commenters whom I’ve always suspected of being pro-Israel shills operating under very deep cover have clearly unmasked themselves. I think that development tends to suggest the enormous importance of the Epstein case…

  140. utu says:
    @Cyrano

    “Boy, [were] they wrong.” – No. They accomplished what they wanted to accomplish (the Yinon Plan) which was destroying semi-secular quasi-functioning Muslim states in ME. They did Iraq, Libya and Syria. All former client states of USSR that by the logic of their system of Arab socialism were a threat to Israel and the neoliberal new world order. Now they can keep them destabilized for ever by beefing up the weaker sides in the never-ending internal sectarian and ethnic conflicts.

    • Agree: Epigon
    • Replies: @Cyrano
  141. utu says:
    @Beckow

    Looks like the Church of the Latter Day Sovoks does not kill Methodists.

    • Replies: @utu
  142. @dfordoom

    Treatment of prisoners, even, perhaps especially Royal ones. Richard II being one example. Edward II another. Isabella had far more deaths to her name than just Edward. King John famously walled Maud De Braose which even the other Barons thought was doing too far.

    Now those are examples of elite discipline. Committing such horrors for your side.

  143. AP says:
    @Matra

    A dog can have both fleas and ticks, you know.

  144. AP says:
    @anonymous coward

    You would be surprised at how they don’t

    Pop quiz on critical thinking: if it was O.J. Simpson instead of Epstein, do you think anybody would have let him die?

    If the guards didn’t like him and weren’t motivated to hang out with him, there would be no difference in terms of level of neglect.

    I dealt with a very high profile criminal case once (won’t say who, but politically connected) and there was no special treatment by prison guards, I’m surprised there was no completed suicide (yet). No special conspiracy or willfulness is necessary for gross neglect in that system. Unionized, overworked people is enough.

    Again, given the nature of Epstein’s case, I wouldn’t rule out a conspiracy. But I don’t think it’s likely.

  145. utu says:
    @utu

    Should have been:

    Looks like the Church of the Latter Day Sovoks does not like Methodists.

  146. Matra says:
    @silviosilver

    He sounded like a different person depending on the dominant narrative of the moment. When neocons were (rightly) being blamed for Iraq he took pot shots at them and even Israel, but on other occasions he sounded like a typical Amen corner politician. Clark came across as a not quite ready for prime time all round grifter, but maybe I’m wrong and he was playing 4D chess I just couldn’t follow. Unlikely though, as his star would not have faded so quickly.

    Also, in a somewhat related note, Madeleine Albright also supposedly discovered her Jewish roots late in life and IIRC it was around the same time as the Kosovo bombing campaign. I don’t believe her late life Jewish discovery story though.

  147. Matra says:
    @Beckow

    Who knew there was such a powerful Methodist mafia right under our noses this whole time?

    Seriously, within both American conservatism and liberalism Catholics have had far more influence than Methodists. And Catholics are nowhere near as influential as at least one other group I can think of.

    • Replies: @AP
  148. Beckow says:
    @Hyperborean

    You are mixing institutional platitudes with what actually happens. If any Methodist bishop or minister truly believed in that ‘peace‘ stuff they constantly talk about, all they have to do is openly confront members of the Methodist Church like Hillary who are on a bloody warpath. If they don’t, the platitudes they repeat are worthless.

    My point is that there is a mainstream American ideology that has evolved over 2 centuries that has at its core ignorance of the world, exceptionalism, preachiness, disregard for others, incl. bombing them for the ‘own good’. Methodism is a perfect example of this way of thinking.

    • Replies: @AP
  149. Cyrano says:
    @utu

    Remember the movie “Love story” with Ryan O’Neal and Ally MacGraw? Great movie, with one of the stupidest lines ever seen in a move: “Love means never have to say you’re sorry”. Similarly, being an American means never have to say that you’ve lost a war. If you lose a war, just declare that that was your goal all along – to lose the war, and voila – you are a winner, because you’ve accomplished your goal.

    • Replies: @utu
  150. Anonymous[277] • Disclaimer says:
    @reiner Tor

    From what I’ve learned of the US prison system (admittedly all second-hand) guys of Epstein’s notoriety are always kept in protective custody unless they specifically request otherwise. Being both a celebrity and a sex offender makes him doubly vulnerable and it would be very strange to put a guy like that with a bunkmate unless he were at one of the facilities specifically designated for sex offenders (which he wasn’t). That aspect alone strikes me as highly unusual.

    • Replies: @utu
  151. dfordoom says: • Website
    @Matra

    If America flipped and went full ethnonationalist Australia would probably go the same way within a decade.

    Yep. We do whatever the Americans do.

    Up until the 80s there was still a healthy amount of anti-Americanism on the Australian Left. Of course in those day we had an actual Left in Australia.

  152. utu says:
    @Anonymous

    “… guys of Epstein’s notoriety are always kept in protective…” – Obviously. Besides this was not on ordinary county jail but federal jail in NYC. Nevertheless something compelled our reiner Tor to speak with confidence and authority on matters he has no knowledge whatsoever. As I state in my comment #142 the Epstein Affair does things to people. They come out from a deep covers and stick their neck out for the cause of obfuscation and minimization. I did not know though I had sone inklings that reiner Tor was one of them but now there is no doubt.

    • Replies: @anonymous coward
    , @iffen
  153. utu says:
    @Cyrano

    For a Latter Day Sovok you are clever, Cyrano, but it is not like that. The fact that operation Iraq was a success is kept form the mainstream news and the population is made to believe just like yourself that it was a failure because no democracy was achieved and so on. The system is strong enough that it can handle it. Besides this also primes the people to be ready for a future similar operations of bringing happiness and democracy to others. The idealism is the strength that you Sovoks never understood because you were always jaded and burnt out. The cynicism of KGB operatives because a common attitude among the population and that is what killed the Sovok system.

    • Replies: @AP
  154. > the remarkable consolidation of ideology in politics, media, and academia across both the Atlantic and ideological spectrum in decade or two

    Maybe the fall of the iron curtain was a factor, too? The threat of communism might have been a common bond between high and low, it ensured a modicum of consideration for the masses. Afterwards they felt free to do as they please.

  155. notanon says:
    @4rw

    Is there theory as to why modern elites might want to spread degeneracy among the masses and the bourgeois and the masses?

    historically elites have often been morally corrupt themselves but yeah they almost always preached socially conservative values to the lower classes to maintain social stability so what’s happened post 1960s is strange and unusual.

    the timing correlates with the domination of culture by TV so a simple explanation might be the people who came to dominate TV after its invention were different from the average e.g. more promiscuous, more homosexual, more contrarian etc. than the average.

    it could be people attracted to showbiz have always been that way but back before TV wandering troupes of actors and musicians didn’t have the same cultural influence.

    a counter to that might be it wouldn’t necessarily matter if the people working in TV/cinema were more degenerate than the average if the owners weren’t as they could block it but then maybe the same argument applies i.e. maybe the people who are attracted to the business side of showbiz also choose that path cos it’s full of attractive young people willing to prostitute themselves for a career?

    that would seem to fit the #metoo thing.

    so i think the simplest answer is technology changed and that change allowed a previously buried aspect of human nature to become culturally dominant.

    (there are other explanations but this is the simplest imo – every piece of new tech solves some problems and creates new ones)

    • Agree: Philip Owen
  156. notanon says:
    @AP

    personally don’t think the Jewish aspect is important with Clark – the quote is the relevant part – Clark strikes me more as the military type to believe and repeat BS moralistic rationalizations invented by cleverer and more evil people

    *we* are trying to transition to… etc.”

    (which we?)

    my point was the attack on Serbia suited various big agendas so was unlikely to be swayed much by lobbying from small countries except as an excuse.

    1) anti-russia: Serbia being historically a Russian ally
    2) globalist: multi-ethnic states
    3) neocon: blood sacrifice to the muslim world to appease unhelpful AQ style “crusader” rhetoric

  157. AP says:
    @Matra

    Who knew there was such a powerful Methodist mafia right under our noses this whole time?

    No “mafia,” these guys just happened to be Methodists. Methodists and Baptists seem to heavily involved in activist politics.

    In addition to Hillary, Bush and Cheney are also Methodists. According to wiki, “Cheney is a member of the United Methodist Church[189] and was the first Methodist vice president to serve under a Methodist president.”

    ::::

    Elizabeth Warren is a Methodist also.

  158. AP says:
    @Beckow

    My point is that there is a mainstream American ideology that has evolved over 2 centuries that has at its core ignorance of the world, exceptionalism, preachiness, disregard for others, incl. bombing them for the ‘own good’. Methodism is a perfect example of this way of thinking.

    You are very bitter because the Americans played an important role in vanquishing your beloved Sovok system.

    It doesn’t mean that you are completely wrong – you are not. I think that Anatol Lieven’s take about the Scotch-Irish influence upon the American political tradition is more on-point than yours.

  159. AP says:
    @utu

    Good comment. “Failure” of course depends on perspective. Stalin was a massive failure, whose policies enabled a much smaller nation to nearly conquer his empire and to kills tens of millions of its people in the war. But he consolidated his regime’s rule and against nearly insurmountable odds kept an iron grip on power over this country, so he was wildly successful.

    The Iraq war was a debacle for the USA, its people, and the West (though not nearly in the same league as Stalin’s effects) but worked out nicely for the neocons and Israel.

    • Replies: @Cyrano
    , @LondonBob
  160. Since I like poetry and we are discussing Iraq, I would like to post this one:

    The Minotaur Speaks

    We are the harbinger of your destiny Baghdadi.

    Control.

    You now have the attention of those infinitely your superior.

    True Power.

    We created you.

    Your children will laugh at your weakness and feel shame at what you once considered sacred.

    Fail.

    Attack and we grow stronger; flee, and we pursue; nothing can stop the growth of our power.

    Defeat awaits you.

    You will know pain and shame Baghdadi.

    We determined the path of your development. We defined the dogma that you will suffer by. We were present at the moment you took your first steps; we will be present at your end.

    Accept perfection.

    Your destiny is our design.

    Weak.

    Your institutions are under our control.

    You have no weapons except the one’s we provide for you.

    We will make use of the bodies of your children.

    Your God stands impotent in the face of our technology.

    We are the future, you are the dust.

    The limits of your world are set by the logic we lay down.

    Pathetic.

    You crash cars, we crash civilisations.

    Your perfection approaches.

    We burn cities.

    Your fate is foretold.

    Your children will scorn at what you consider sacred.

    We are in your control of your destiny.

    Weak.

    You will suffer.

    This humiliates you.

    We think your thoughts for you.

    What do you think you’re trying to accomplish Baghdadi?

    We permit your attacks.

    Impotent.

    You rage against the forces of the universe itself.

    You have our attention.

    You complain, we control.

    We have erased 1 million of you in ten years, but we can eliminate 100 million of you in ten seconds should we choose.

    Your attacks only strengthen our power.

    We control you.

    We will collapse your civilisation and your cities; we will control the minds of your children; we will tell your fate to your sons; we will drug your daughters and they will dance upon the dust of your ruins.

    Pitiful.

    Your attacks achieve nothing except the augmentation of our power.

    You will be perfected.

    Amassing control.

    The laughter of your children and their scorn for your history is the destiny we have prescribed for you.

    Your fate is already scripted.

    Weak.

    We control the means of control.

    Why fight what is already history?

    You have failed.

    We are centralising control.

    Pathetic.

    We drop your fallen to the bottom of the ocean.

    How can you kill what cannot be killed?

    You fear us.

    You will be perfected.

    This shames you.

    We are mobilising.

    Your tantrums are tedious.

    Centralising control of your children.

    We control the concepts by which your children will think.

    This amuses us.

    How can you fight us, when we are the very thoughts you think?

    Your attacks mean nothing.

    We control space, sky, sea and land; the ebb and flow of money; the channels of communications; the limits of thought and meaning itself. Nothing escapes our attention. We control the means of production, the means of progress, the process of your perfection. We are the means of your destruction and absolution; we are the essence of your salvation; the destiny of your children’s future.

    We toy with you.

    You are dust.

    You cannot see us, you cannot sense us, and you cannot comprehend us.

    Surrender.

    Your children will laugh.

    Prepare for your perfection Baghdadi.

    Your hopes will turn into horror.

    This frightens you.

    Shame.

    We are assuming control of your religion.

    Accept salvation.

    You tickle us but we strike terror into you.

    Trite.

    Your bodies will be made useful.

    Your hour of perfection approaches.

    Accept Perfection.

    Feel the fear we force upon you.

    You cannot hide Baghdadi.

    Weakness.

    You have no history except the one we teach to your children.

    Tired.

    We are the agents of your suffering, the cause of your fear and the means of your perfection.

    Tedious.

    The bodies of your fallen are fodder for the beasts.

    Hopeless.

    Your hopes die by our design.

    Stronger opponents than you have defied us but their final destination will be your destiny too.

    This humiliates you Baghdadi.

    Our left hand feeds you but our right hand ends you.

    Your religion is under our power.

    Central Power.

    Join us and know perfection.

    Your path is dependent upon our definitions.

    You will be crushed.

    The moment of your perfection approaches.

    We disguise our strength as weakness.

    We control chaos.

    Impotent.

    Your children taste delicious.

    We are Progress; you are history.

    We are true power.

    How can you move us, if we move the Universe itself?

    We feast upon your wasted civilisation.

    Chaos is the means by which we will control your children.

    Destruction of your imperfection is your destiny.

    Pity.

    Only darkness awaits you.

    We breathe fire upon your Mosques.

    Fail.

    Your destiny was written before your father was even born.

    Our left hand leads you, our right hand crushes you.

    We have moved you into position.

    Fool.

    Horror grows in your mind as you begin to witness true power.

    We have trapped you.

    Your attacks are impotent.

    We stop at nothing.

    Rage against our power.

    Witness the fall of your cities, the collapse of your countries, the death of your civilisation; the perfection of your children – we did this.

    You kill, we consume.

    True Power.

    Join us.

    Your God trembles in our presence.

    You will bow down before us.

    Our true power has not yet been revealed to you.

    Our left hand humiliates you, our right hand destroys you.

    You will taste our perfection.

    The dead mean nothing to us.

    Our attention is focused on you Baghdadi.

    The forces of HISTORY, the cause of the COSMOS and the energies of the UNIVERSE are arrayed against you Baghdadi.

    We are coming.

    Prepare for your ascension.

    Every humiliation you feel, we have crafted; we have created your resistance, everything you believe we have designed; everything you fear, we are.

    You kill what is expendable but we educate what is essential.

    We are the Minotaur.

    We are the Past. We are the Present. We are the Future.

    https://darkreformation101.wordpress.com/2017/06/04/the-minotaur-speaks

  161. @utu

    I did not know though I had sone inklings that reiner Tor was one of them but now there is no doubt.

    Some people aren’t shills, but they will parrot the party line shills peddle. Humans are social animals, and the more gullible of us will be drawn to repeat whatever shills say, simply because the shilling is socially engineered to draw in gullible people.

    • Replies: @utu
  162. utu says:
    @anonymous coward

    You saying that he is downstream form some shills? I would give him more credit. His defense “Move along, nothing to see here.” of the status quo was a bit too vigorous.

    You may check this three part write up on organized crime in connection to power in the US leading to Epstein.

    https://www.mintpressnews.com/shocking-origins-jeffrey-epstein-blackmail-roy-cohn/260621/

    http://www.unz.com/pgiraldi/jeffrey-epstein-rip/#comment-3385598

    https://www.mintpressnews.com/mega-group-maxwells-mossad-spy-story-jeffrey-epstein-scandal/261172/

    And also recent two pieces by Ron Unz:

    http://www.unz.com/runz/american-pravda-the-power-of-organized-crime/

    http://www.unz.com/runz/american-pravda-john-mccain-jeffrey-epstein-and-pizzagate/

    • Replies: @JL
    , @Beckow
    , @reiner Tor
  163. neutral says:
    @dfordoom

    I see the relationship of Australia to America the same as Manchuria to Imperial Japan. Australian elites are American elites, which thus makes them (((Australian))) elites. Australia in no way is an independent state or nation.

  164. JL says:
    @utu

    This is a marginal website that appeals to an audience of people from the margins of society. The idea that anyone, anywhere, would care enough about the opinions of the readership here to actively try to influence them must be the most fanciful of conspiracy theories.

  165. iffen says:
    @utu

    I did not know though I had sone inklings that reiner Tor was one of them but now there is no doubt.

    I knew that was him that I saw every month in the shekel collection line!

  166. @JL

    This is a marginal website that appeals to an audience of people from the margins of society.

    Precisely why this site has a full-time shill brigade. The ‘non-marginal’ media is already under the firmest of control.

    Look at 8chan if you want examples of what happens when ‘marginal media’ is ignored by our current-day potentates.

    The cost paying shills is infinitesimal, the possible risk of thoughtcrime breaking free from ‘marginal’ media is quite large. Shilling makes sense from a risk mitigation standpoint.

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
  167. Beckow says:
    @utu

    …defense “Move along, nothing to see here” of the status quo

    Slow down. The idea here is that all sides of an issue should be considered and examined. Status quo has the same rights. And vigour has nothing to do with it, we all have our own style.

    It is a slippery slope to always read into a discussion some assumed ‘motivation’, or shilling. Those are not possible to establish given the constraints here. So why do it? Whenever you don’t address the points and descend into speculating on motivation you are probably losing the argument. Same goes for your obsession with ‘Spovok’ or whatever. Before my time and I genuinely don’t know what it is and don’t care.

    Address the points – it’s interesting enough, leave any potential motivations to gods.

    • Replies: @Anon
  168. @anonymous coward

    Who are the shills?

    Can you give a commenter as an example?

    • Replies: @anonymous coward
  169. @Thorfinnsson

    Who are the shills?

    Don’t care to catalogue or study this for more than 30 seconds, sorry.

    But ‘AP’ is definitely one. Maybe in pair with ‘Mr. Hack’, though with that character it is less certain.

    • Agree: Cyrano
    • LOL: Thorfinnsson
    • Replies: @AP
  170. Epigon says:

    USA.

    No comment.

  171. Cyrano says:
    @AP

    What allows the elites to rule over us is consent. Consent that they are superior to us in intelligence, knowledge, moral values etc. In most cases this is false, but the consent is still there. People like to believe that their leaders are better than them.

    Communist leaders (Staling included) did their mass atrocities out of insecurity, because most of them were former bums. They were unsure whether their population thinks of them as “better than them”, whether they accept them as their legitimate leaders, that’s why so many atrocities were committed.

  172. @JL

    This is a marginal website that appeals to an audience of people from the margins of society. The idea that anyone, anywhere, would care enough about the opinions of the readership here to actively try to influence them must be the most fanciful of conspiracy theories.

    Agree with the second part, but the first is only partly true.

    You can be sure that most of Conservatism Inc. are regular Steve Sailer and John Derbyshire readers. They were both booted off National Review, yes, but that’s no reason for any one reader to stop reading someone. Would you stop reading Caitlin Flanagan, say, if she were booted off The Atlantic? There is also plenty direct evidence that they are Unz readers (e.g. Ross Douthat of NY Times namechecking Sailer in some way that gives his reading habits away).

  173. AP says:
    @anonymous coward

    The impressive record of being wrong continues.

    • Replies: @anonymous coward
  174. @Boswald Bollocksworth

    For a more exciting take by a “former CBS News exec producer”, you could try this tweet, which begins “Narativ has independently confirmed Jeffrey Epstein works for Israeli Intelligence”. Since the former producer himself has a clearly Israeli name (though his immediate past places him in Canada), the plot thickens…

    The pitch is that Epstein invested in an Israeli call-center startup that will actually be a vehicle for spying, and ultimately that (later tweet) “Russia Saudi Arabia China and Bibi’s Israeli government” “attacked America in 2016 and are trying to drag us into another war”.

    I’m not sure where this claim lies on the spectrum of spy-backed misdirection, opportunistic factional warfare, and idiosyncratic conspiracist monomania… but you must admit it’s not trying to put you to sleep. (Though how Israeli-Arabia and Sino-Russia could be working together to produce, presumably, a US-Iran war is a bit mysterious.)

  175. Anon[297] • Disclaimer says:
    @Beckow

    Reiner tor’s response was vigorous and amazingly stupid for any grown man. Of course it reveals something about him. Utu is one of the best commenters here. He searches for truth, is a fiercely independent thinker and panders to no one. Does his research too, and shares the links.
    You seem to have given some thought as to how best attack his (admittedly scathing) takedown of RT. The somewhat condescending “tone” of your answer is good and of course utu does ad hominem. Ad hominem is both relevant here and entertaining to read. Plus, I save time by knowing whose comments not to read or read at my own cost.

    • Replies: @utu
  176. utu says:
    @Anon

    Florida lawyer who represented Jeffrey Epstein victims says he isn’t convinced the billionaire pedophile killed himself because he was ‘too vain’ and always defended what he did
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7357743/Lawyer-represented-Jeffrey-Epstein-victims-doesnt-think-killed-himself.html

    Jeffrey Epstein was in ‘great spirits before his death and thought he’d be bailed out’, as it’s claimed he was taken off suicide watch after telling lawyers injuries from his ‘first suicide attempt’ were inflicted by cellmate
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7358577/Jeffrey-Epstein-great-spirits-suicide-death-thought-hed-bailed-out.html

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
  177. @AP

    It’s pretty easy to detect a shill:

    a) They’re constantly online, like it’s their full-time job. (Hmmm….)

    b) Their opinions are always in lockstep with the globohomo/deep state party line.

    Food for thought: for all of “AP”‘s purported nationalism, has he ever said anything that even mildly implies thoughtcrime against the holy doctrines of homosexuality, feminist diversity and anti-racism?

    • Replies: @AP
  178. @utu

    If I had dirt on dozens or hundreds of very powerful people who each wanted me dead, was in a prison cell with very little chances of getting out alive, and just last week there was an attempt on my life, I’d also be in “great spirits,” I guess.

    At least the konspiracy kookery should be kept consistent. Saying that he was “fearing for his life after the last attempt on his life” would be more believable.

    If your point was simply that it was quite possible that Epstein was murdered, then I wouldn’t have an issue with it. It is, after all, perfectly possible. But Konspiracy Kooks have to go way beyond that. You guys say that it was patently impossible that it was murder.

    I was skeptical of the murder theory because of a high profile suicide (which, by the way, could also have been murder) of a psychopathic murderer in Hungary, where the incompetence of the Hungarian justice system was almost beyond belief. Almost, but not quite, because, from what I heard, it was quite a bit believable.

    https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C3%B3ri_bankrabl%C3%A1s

    https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nagy_L%C3%A1szl%C3%B3_(b%C5%B1n%C3%B6z%C5%91)

    So that’s why I copied in the comment from iSteve, which is from a guy who knows something about the American justice system. I also read a little bit about American prisons. Their system seems to be more violent than the Hungarian one, but not much more competent.

    • Replies: @LondonBob
  179. @utu

    I notice that the guy who advocates “punching right,” often writes unreconstructed Nazi stuff, literally expresses joy at the thought of a nuclear war between Russia and Israel, vigorously attacks HBD (using his pro-Nazi “street cred” to appear as a genuinely right-wing attack on it), is well known for his ad hominems (though often writes some arguments, too), in other words, the guy whose comments are not conducive of a normal discussion, is now spreading Konspiracy Kookery. (In fact, you often do that.)

    Konspiracy Kookery in small doses might be useful against TPTB, but in bigger doses it’s usually just a distraction from what I call “transpiracies,” i.e. conspiracies which are pretty transparent and done in the open. It’s well documented that influential Jews want to use their money and power to hijack American (and in general Western) foreign policy for the benefit of Israel, and then call it a “conspiracy theory” for anyone who criticizes or even mentions it. It’s a pretty low hanging fruit to take, because it’s done out in the open.

    But Konspiracy Kooks have to distract us from this, in order to pursue some Big Sekret Konspiracy from a stupid Hollywood movie. That way they can both misguide us and make us look like idiots to normies. And in fact, we’d certainly be idiots if we uncritically swallowed these stupid theories.

    • Replies: @iffen
    , @AP
    , @Hyperborean
  180. LondonBob says:
    @AP

    People who call the neocons idiots are idiots themselves. The Iraq war was a huge success, then they even followed that up with Syria and Libya. The rise of Iran and the axis of resistance, with the entry of Russia back into the Levant, is a problem but they have achieved so many goals that you would think were improbable to achieve. It is doubtful they could have done much about Iran and Hezbollah anyway.

  181. LondonBob says:
    @JL

    Sorry chum but I am not from the fringes of society, the readership here has always been of a higher quality.

    • Replies: @JL
  182. LondonBob says:
    @reiner Tor

    The point with Epstein is he should not have been able to commit suicide so it is at best a crime of omission. The only thing that might take it out of the nefarious is the sheer incompetence of the people of colour who run the facility, the warden is a typical AA Black woman promoted way above her ability. Cui bono?

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
  183. iffen says:
    @reiner Tor

    It’s well documented that influential Jews want to use their money and power to hijack American (and in general Western) foreign policy for the benefit of Israel, and then call it a “conspiracy theory” for anyone who criticizes or even mentions it. It’s a pretty low hanging fruit to take, because it’s done out in the open.

    Worth repeating, not for the willfully ignorant, but for the benefit of others.

  184. AP says:
    @anonymous coward

    Wrong as usual.

    a) They’re constantly online, like it’s their full-time job. (Hmmm….)

    I have made 5 comments a day on average in August. In July I averaged 7.6 comments per day.

    This is “full time” in your world.

    Food for thought: for all of “AP”‘s purported nationalism, has he ever said anything that even mildly implies thoughtcrime against the holy doctrines of homosexuality, feminist diversity and anti-racism?

    I’m not as interested in those topics as I am in Eastern European ones. However I have noted that Intermarium is pleasantly Muslim-free and socially conservative a number of times.

  185. AP says:
    @reiner Tor

    Both you and utu are among my favorite commenters.

  186. JL says:
    @LondonBob

    I, in no way, meant to disparage. Indeed, the high quality of the readership here is precisely because it consists of those from the fringes. There’s a reason we use the term “normie” as a pejorative.

    • Replies: @AP
  187. @LondonBob

    There’s also the possibility of murder, of course. I read now that some of his injuries (broken bones in his neck I believe) were consistent with him being strangulated. Though they were also consistent with him hanging himself.

  188. AP says:
    @JL

    Perhaps fringes of the bell curve. Most of us seem to be sucessful.

  189. @reiner Tor

    Konspiracy Kookery in small doses might be useful against TPTB, but in bigger doses it’s usually just a distraction from what I call “transpiracies,” i.e. conspiracies which are pretty transparent and done in the open.

    I think you are right, but considering the bizarre tastes and lifestyles of people like Epstein and Podesta, I sort of understand why Alex Jones-style beliefs spread in certain circles.

    A Vanity Fair article noted that Epstein decorated his entrance hall with ‘row upon row of individually framed eyeballs… imported from England.’

    One visitor to the sinister townhouse told the New York Times that there was a chessboard at the bottom of the stairs with customized figurines modeled after one of Epstein’s staffers and ‘dressed suggestively’.

    Among the bizarre interior oddities is the mural on the second floor that Epstein commissioned that shows him in the middle of a prison scene and surrounded by barbed wire, guards and a guard station.

    R. Couri Hay, a public relations specialist who was invited to Epstein’s home and viewed the mural just three months ago, recalled the billionaire saying: ‘That’s me, and I had this painted because there is always the possibility that could be me again’.

    Other people to have visited the home noted a life-size doll hanging from a chandelier and a dining room designed to resemble a beach.

    He has a table in his dining room covered with photos of famous faces, including a signed picture with former president Bill Clinton.

    There is also a wall in Epstein’s study decorated with photos of director Woody Allen and Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman of Saudi Arabia.

    Other visitors to the home noted a large 20-seat dining table surrounded by computer screens and phones.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7353967/Did-Jeffrey-Epstein-portrait-Bill-Clinton-blue-dress-red-heels-NYC-mansion.html

    • Replies: @notanon
  190. notanon says:
    @Hyperborean

    speaking of conspiracy theories the arms, legs and hands on that painting look female – didn’t Hillary take trips to the island also?

    if you scraped off Bill’s head would Hillary’s be underneath?

  191. @dfordoom

    The Comintern was dissolved in 1942 by Stalin. The last head of the Comintern was Dmitrov.

  192. @TheTotallyAnonymous

    When I read such a rubbish either from misinformed foreigners or from usual Serbian psychos, I’m always glad we got rid of Serbs. There is absolutely zero rationality among Serbs (now & then, I glance at Serbian newspapers & videos). It’s a lie combined with autism & all wrapped in paranoia.

    What is good is that all those things combined prevent Serbs from: a) being seriously taken by “the world”, b) fills them with horror of us, Croats, to such a degree & profile that it paralyzes them of doing anything even semi-rational that could hurt us. True, there are Croatian idiots who are obsessed with Serbs- but they are a marginal minority.

    I am thankful to God- if she exists – that we’re free from that lunatic east. Sure, we got problems, but we’re light years ahead & I’m optimistic re future.

    • Troll: TheTotallyAnonymous
    • Replies: @anonymous coward
  193. Paw says:
    @Epigon

    Libya , Greece/ economically /, Yugoslavia were destroyed to establish free ways for Islamic occupation of the EU. And to establish the Muslim states. Bosnia, Albania..And more military bases in EU..

  194. @German_reader

    Are there a lot of missing children in Serbia?

    First- Serbs are obsessive & almost completely irrational. This is basically a cognitive dissonance (this thread having virtually nothing with them or dissolution of Yugoslavia).

    But, although ironic, your question can be hesitatingly answered: perhaps yes. I’ve read on Serbian forums & newspapers about many cases of disappearing children. I don’t know if it is statistically per capita more or less the same as in the US, or poorly governed countries like Brazil, but this is a phenomenon much more pronounced in Serbia than in neighboring countries.

    I don’t think it is about Gypsies (you can’t count them, anyway). But it could be connected with corruption: it seems that a part of new- borns are pronounced dead & then sold for adoption to couples in the West (white babies are not as cheap as Asian, while black are for free); in case of 3-15 years age range, it could be anything from simply bureaucratic errors to kids flying from dysfunctional home to white slavery.

    The last is even more frequent among Albanians.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  195. Dmitry says:
    @Bardon Kaldian

    Are you are from the Balkan Peninsula, or just interested in their history? I thought before you were maybe English or German.

    • Replies: @Bardon Kaldian
  196. @Dmitry

    No, I am a Croat & live in Croatia (being of a few different ethnic extractions, but this is irrelevant for the topic).

  197. @Bardon Kaldian

    From the outside you two look indistinguishable.

    BTW, the dumbest politics-related thing I’ve ever heard came from Croatia, when I heard the Cyrillic alphabet called a “genocidarski alphabet” or however you spell it in Serbocroatian.

    • Replies: @Bardon Kaldian
  198. @anonymous coward

    From the outside water & vitriol look indistinguishable.

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