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So EU citizens can no longer insult the Prophet Mohammed:

The European Court of Human Rights (ECHR) ruled on Thursday that insulting Islam’s Prophet Mohammed is not covered by freedom of expression.

Defaming the Prophet “goes beyond the permissible limits of an objective debate” and “could stir up prejudice and put at risk religious peace,” the ruling stated.

Obviously that isn’t going to be applied to insulting Christian figures anytime soon. To the contrary, those few European countries that still have blasphemy on the books are fast doing away with it.

Here is how Talha says things might look like in a (real) Islamic state under sharia law:

If a Muslim clearly insults the Son of Mary or his mother (pbut), that could be considered grounds for apostasy – and the rules for apostasy would kick in. If the Muslim insults the saints of another religion, then that would fall under the rules of insulting the religious sensibilities of dhimmis (or non-Muslim citizens) and that is open – at least in the Hanafi school – for what kind of punishment the judge finds suitable – it could even be something creative like public service, say, cleaning the toilets at a church for a month. But there is no punishment per se for insulting a Christian saint in and of itself (unlike with Jesus and his blessed mother [pbut] – it is bad etiquette though.

For a Muslim to insult any of the Prophets (pbut) is considered the same. For a non-Muslim, the Hanafi school is flexible; it takes into account public benefit into the equation and (classically) the terms dictated by the dhimmi contract. You have to remember, a certain level of blasphemy is protected under the dhimmi contract, for instance Jews declaring Jesus and Muhammad (pbut) to be false and teaching it is assumed and protected, but they could easily be punished for going out and insulting or reviling them publicly.

While I support full freedom of speech, if there are to be free speech restrictions, I’d much rather it be of the sharia kind than the GloboHomo ECRH one, because that way at least the liberals get sent to jail too.

Incidentally, in Russia, people occasionally do go to jail for insulting Christianity as well as Islam.

Naturally, the Western MSM kicks up a huge fuss whenever the former happens. Equally naturally, it couldn’t care less about instances of the latter, be it in Russia or the EU. No wonder that more and more people hate them.

 
• Category: Ideology • Tags: Europe, Freedom of Speech, Islamism, Law 
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  1. neutral says:

    I don’t usually care to much about these religious debates, but under the circumstances I am forced to say the following. Mohammed was a vile cockroach, a scam artist, a liar and a fraud, I spit and piss on his grave, I hope that he is suffering in an afterlife if such things exist.

    • Agree: Felix Keverich
    • Replies: @Hyperborean
    , @DFH
  2. Talha says:

    I spit and piss on his grave

    He’s actually buried in Madinah under the green dome that the Ottomans built – probably the most famous and well-known grave in all the world:

    Why don’t you go ahead and go for it? Here, I’ll map it for you:

    https://www.google.com/maps/place/Al+Masjid+an+Nabawi/@24.4672105,39.611131,15z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x0:0x39c9cca9e8b98e2f!8m2!3d24.4672105!4d39.611131

    Remember to take some selfies for all of us.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    , @DFH
  3. Sam says:

    I believe that what the European Court of Human Rights is actually saying is that is Austria allowed to punish somebody for defaming the profet. It’s not ruling that you can’t defame him but only that governments in Europe are allowed to punish you for doing so.

    There should be some millionaires, like in America for abortion and gun rights, who intentionally seek to test the courts. In this case testing if the European Court of Human Rights will uphold the same right in protection of Christian sensibilities.

  4. @neutral

    under the circumstances I am forced to say the following. Mohammed was a vile cockroach, a scam artist, a liar and a fraud, I spit and piss on his grave, I hope that he is suffering in an afterlife if such things exist.

    I find this opinion peculiar. What is the point of applying human morality to animals?

    If they are behaving in accord with their natures, then there is really no reason to judge them like one would judge humans.

  5. Anonymous[155] • Disclaimer says:
    @Talha

    Funny enough, that grave goes against mohahahamad words.

    • Replies: @Talha
  6. Anonymous[175] • Disclaimer says:

    Hopefully some muslim group goes after somebody for insulting their prophet Jesus. In Denmark not so long ago, somebody was convicted via an ancient law against blasphemy for saying something against Islam.

    Also:

    Incidentally, in Russia, people occasionally do go to jail for insulting Christianity as well as Islam.

    Naturally, the Western MSM kicks up a huge fuss whenever the former happens. Equally naturally, it couldn’t care less about instances of the latter, be it in Russia or the EU. No wonder that more and more people hate them.

  7. DFH says:
    @neutral

    According to Dante he is

  8. DFH says:
    @Talha

    probably the most famous and well-known grave in all the world

    Pretty sure the Pyramids are more famous, tbh

    • Replies: @Talha
  9. Talha says:
    @DFH

    Ah – good point – I didn’t of it that way. I forgot they were actually tombs and not just massive structures.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @melanf
  10. Talha says:
    @Anonymous

    Not really. If you look at the original location, you’ll see that there are a bunch of reinforcing walls and structures built around it to secure it, but the actual graves (Umar [ra] and Abu Bakr [ra] are also there) are quite simple, as he would have liked.

    Here is a good video on the various components in a model (sorry it’s in Urdu), but it does give one the basic idea (plus, I like how this is like one of those traditional Russian stacking dolls:

    Peace.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  11. melanf says:
    @Talha

    Well, Taj Mahal is also better known

    • Replies: @Talha
  12. Once again proof that Islamic works and that the presence of millions of Muslims has already had a highly negative effect on Europe.
    And our rotten elites do everything to bring yet more of them here.

    • Replies: @German_reader
  13. @German_reader

    that Islamic works

    should be “Islamic violence” here. That’s of course what “threat to the religious peace” refers to, fear of the psycho reactions of Muslims.

  14. Anonymous[155] • Disclaimer says:
    @Talha

    It’s that hadith, you know, one that salafis use as a reason that grave should be moved. I was unfortunate that one umahaha member convince me to read Bukhari and Muslim. My low opinion on Islam fell under the floor, after reading that stuff.

    • Replies: @Talha
  15. notanon says:

    one of the consequences of allowing saudi money to corrupt the political class

  16. The ECHR is,surprisingly conservative on issues of freedom of expression as they relate to religion.

    On 25 November 1996, the European Rights decided in the Wingrove case that the refusal to certificate in respect of a video work considered blasphemous, was not in breach of Article 10 of the European Convention of Human Rights ( see also the decision by the European Court of Human Rights in the Case of Otto Preminger vs. Austria of 20 September 1994, Series A vol. 295, IRIS 1995-1:3).

    Nigel Wingrove, a film director residing in London, was refused a certificate by the British Board of Film Classification, because his videofilm “Visions of Ecstasy” was considered as blasphemous. The film evocates the erotic fantasies of a sixteenth century Carmelite nun, St Teresa of Avila, her sexual passions in the film being focused inter alia on the figure of the crucified Christ. As a result of the Board’s determination, Wingrove would have committed an offence under the Video Recordings Act 1984 if he were to supply the video in any manner, whether or not for reward. The director’s appeal was rejected by the Video Appeals Committee. Wingrove applied to the European Commission of Human Rights, relying on Article 10 of the European Convention for the protection of human rights and fundamental freedoms.

    Although the Commission in its report of 10 January 1995 ( see IRIS 1995-5:4) expressed the opinion that there had been a violation of Article 10 of the Convention, the Court comes to the conclusion, by seven votes to two, that there had been no violation of the applicant’s freedom of (artistic) expression, the British authorities being fully entitled to consider that the impugned measure was justified as being necessary in a democratic society for the protection of the rights of others. The Court underlined that whereas there is little scope for restrictions on political speech or on debate of questions of public interest, a wider margin of appreciation is available to the national authorities restricting freedom of expression in relation to matters within the sphere of morals or especially, religion.

    • Replies: @Talha
  17. Talha says:
    @melanf

    This is also true. I believe in both cases; pyramids and Taj Mahal (as well as certain others) people come to visit the building or structure itself, not the person inside – where as it is the opposite with the Prophet’s grave; people come to visit him specifically – nobody comes for the structure.

    But I agree, there are likely better known tombs/mausoleums that are wonders in their own right even if there was nobody buried there*.

    Peace.

    *I believe the pharaohs have been removed from inside the pyramids if I remember correctly:

    • Replies: @Anon
  18. Talha says:
    @Anonymous

    Ah yes, Salafis…well, the other schools disagree with their interpretation of things. There is no doubt though that one should be on the careful side about these things and not be extravagant about the structures; there are better ways to spend money (on the poor, education, etc.).

    read Bukhari and Muslim.

    I would not even recommend a Muslim reading that stuff without either a teacher or a sound commentary – which often differ from one school to the other – (unfortunately, these are not available in English), though the translation is just starting:

    https://www.amazon.com/Al-Bari-Victory-Creator-Commentary-Al-Bukhari/dp/1909460117

    My low opinion on Islam fell under the floor

    To each his own…

    Peace.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  19. Talha says:
    @Ali Choudhury

    This makes sense…every society takes into account other considerations (whether financial, security, etc.) when determining the limits of speech. Jonathan Peterson recently threatened to sue someone for libel for some nonsense they were spreading about him in the public.

    Ali, you ever been to Madinah? Don’t know if you’ve heard the recently remade classic by the Sabri Brothers (Tajdar-e-Haram) – it’s got subtitles for those of you who can’t understand:

    Wa salaam.

    • Replies: @Ali Choudhury
  20. A note: Austria gives Islam the same legal status like the other Christian churches, because of the Austro-Hungarian heritage. Islam is much regulated/controlled/protected than in other European countries.

    In other European countries the Turkish Republic [through orgs like DITIB here in Germany), Saudi money and other Muslim orgs run their networks/support-groups leading to an overgrown mess. Just throw in obscure radical preachers on Youtube.

    Anyway Muslims bitch alot about the white man’s rule, just wait until Pax Confucius kicks in. Uighurs are already getting a taste of the Yellow Men’s dominance. A white woman’s remark about that Arab warlord will be least of Muslims’ concern.

    • Replies: @Talha
    , @Ali Choudhury
  21. @Talha

    My wife and I went to Mecca after our honeymoon for Umrah at her suggestion. That’s the only time we have been to Saudi Arabia. Given the limited time we weren’t able to go to Madinah. If we don’t go for hajj any time soon, I wouldn’t mind making a separate trip there if getting a tourism visa just for that is straightforward. Cairo, Samarkand and Isfahan are places I am more keen on seeing though. If you come to Europe, I would really recommend a trip to Cordoba, Granada and Seville. We listened to the Atif Aslam Coke Studios cover continuously in that period.

    • Replies: @Talha
  22. Talha says:
    @Another German Reader

    because of the Austro-Hungarian heritage

    Totally makes sense. Probably why Russia has a better grip on things too; Islam was recognized as a part of the Russian Empire since at least the time of Empress Catherine.

    Muslims bitch alot about the white man’s rule

    Everyone does…it’s only because they were the last one’s to own empires. My father is older than many of the former European colonies. Time will likely ease this up.

    Pax Confucius kicks in

    They seem not to have the same issues. They don’t really seem interestd in exporting democracy or whatever to Muslim countries – they seem to only be interested in making a good deal.

    Uighurs are already getting a taste of the Yellow Men’s dominance.

    Yeah the Chinese can be brutal, but that’s just because they happen to be an ethnic minority inside Chinese territory. The Chinese are fairly OK with their Hui minority. If the Uighurs were in Tajikistan or something, the Chinese would likely leave them alone. I really don’t see Chinese marines establishing a beachhead on the coast of Somalia, do you?

    Peace.

    • Replies: @Another German Reader
  23. @Another German Reader

    I don’t see that happening. The Chi-Coms are very concerned about potential internal threats and spend more money on state security than they do on their armed forces. What Muslims do outside of China’s borders is of no concern to them.

  24. Talha says:
    @Ali Choudhury

    My wife and I went to Mecca after our honeymoon for Umrah

    Nice – do you still remember the first time you guys laid eyes on the Kaaba? I think it hits everyone the same – you can barely see past all the tears.

    I wouldn’t mind making a separate trip there if getting a tourism visa just for that is straightforward

    Well worth it – if you do, convey my salaam to him. I’ll do the same on your behalf if I get a chance to go; my wife has really been wanting to plan a trip (we have to wait a few years to be able to leave my son in someone else’s care due to his Type 1 diabetes).

    If you come to Europe, I would really recommend a trip to Cordoba, Granada and Seville.

    Definitely. Sometimes Shaykh Hamza Yusuf or others do like a week-long trip along with immersion in one or other Islamic subject – I’d love to do something like that.

    We really live in a blessed time in that sense; we might just be normal people, but we can visit places that others could only dream about seeing.

    Wa salaam.

    • Replies: @Ali Choudhury
    , @Anon
  25. @Talha

    Yeah, seeing the Kaabah up close is pretty awesome. I was a bit surprised by how casually some people were taking the experience, one guy was doing his tawaaf while trying to sort out his travel itinerary on his phone. Very humbling to see the physically infirm there and those for whom this would likely be their one and only foreign trip.

  26. Anonymous[155] • Disclaimer says:
    @Talha

    Yeah i got commentaries too, member of umahahaha who wanted to get me into cult is an imam. Problem in islam is. Quran, meh. Quran with tasfirs even worse. Same goes with hadith. More you immerse yourself into it, more cultish it gets.

    My favorite quote would be from Al-Bayhaqi when Alahahah wants good for his slave, he opens him door of good deeds, and close him doors of discussions/arguments. But when he wants him bad, he closes him door of good deeds, but opens a door of discussions/arguments Shu`ab al-Iman 2/295

    To each his own…

    Except for cradle muslims that want to leave the cult, chop chop head for them.

    Peace, bro.

    • Replies: @Talha
  27. Talha says:
    @Anonymous

    That is a great quote from Imam Bayhaqi (ra) about how dangerous wasting time in argumentation is.

    More you immerse yourself into it, more cultish it gets.

    As I said, to each his own…

    The chop, chop is getting less and less frequent. I wouldn’t be surprised that there is a moratorium on it within my lifetime across the Muslim world.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  28. @Talha

    they seem to only be interested in making a good deal.

    People’s Liberation Army’s Navy:

    in 2018:

    - one refurbished 65000t ski-jump Kutzenov-class carrier (for training)
    - one modified 67000t ski-jump Kutzenov-class carrier /combat-capable
    - one US-style 100000t flat-top carrier in very early stage of construction
    - less then a dozen modern SSNs and 3x fairly-modern SSKs.
    - 2x modern DDGs & 3x modern FFGs

    in late 2030s: estimated by nearly all experts/watchers:

    - three flat-top carrier groups with logistic-support + the two above-mentioned trainer-carrier groups.
    - around 12 – 15 next-gen Type-095 SSN, which can take on world’s premier SSNs
    - around a dozen independent destroyer/frigate task-force

    I hope Muslim countries can pay back all the OBOR-loans or have ways of substitute-payment. Just don’t think about defaulting on these Chinese loans!

    Ohh Uncle Sam will only be a middling nation of IQ 85/90, which barely can keep its’ fleet up. There won’t be a daring USN commander coming to rescue, because he takes his order from POTUS Goldstein-Sanchez, who got his campaign donations from Wang & Associates.

    Remember everyone is nice, until he can choke your maritime-trade!

    I really don’t see Chinese marines establishing a beachhead on the coast of Somalia, do you?

    First: What do you want with Somalians, who only got all negative clichees about blacks AND Muslims.

    Second: I & everyone see a fully operational base in Djibouti, do you?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_People%27s_Liberation_Army_Support_Base_in_Djibouti

    • Replies: @Talha
  29. Anonymous[155] • Disclaimer says:
    @Talha

    Thing that i notice from that quote, is that alahahahah is wishing bad thing for his puny creation. But then again what else to expect from slave master.

    As I said, to each his own…

    Ah surah 109, is there any other possible answer, you know just for the sake of linguistic diversity, or you guys gotta stick with that one, like some sort of NPCs?

    Peace,bro.

    • Replies: @Talha
  30. Talha says:
    @Another German Reader

    I don’t mind this actually. The Chinese foot print overseas is still quite small.

    If they want to seriously scrap, they know where to find us. As I’ve stated before; Muslims don’t mind scrapping once in a while. Maybe they can give a start with Afghanistan and see if they can do better than everyone else.

    I’d rather if we got along, but that’s also up to them, but from my personal perspective; I’ll take being under the thumb of European (People of the Book) hegemony over Chinese hegemony.

    Peace.

  31. Anon[141] • Disclaimer says:
    @Talha

    I should point out that lots of people like to visit at least one grave where we know there’s nobody buried at all.

  32. dfordoom says: • Website

    While I support full freedom of speech, if there are to be free speech restrictions, I’d much rather it be of the sharia kind than the GloboHomo ECRH one, because that way at least the liberals get sent to jail too.

    Sounds reasonable.

    Christians might well be better off overall under sharia law than under liberalism.

  33. Anon[141] • Disclaimer says:
    @Talha

    It must affect everybody differently, but what exactly is seeing the Kaaba like for a Muslim? Like the Elevation of the Host at a Catholic Mass, or like the Holy Sepulchre? Like the Kandy Perahera? Like Lenin’s tomb for a communist, or the site of Gettysburg? Like none of these, or a mixture?

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    , @Talha
  34. Vox Day was bitching about the lack of blasphemy laws. Some EU states were trying to use them to prosecute people who insult islam. Its a good thing if they go away. An example in Ireland the Islamic Cultural Centre of Ireland is against repealing the anti blasphemy statutes.

  35. Anonymous[128] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anon

    It’s like Temple for Jews.

  36. Talha says:
    @Anonymous

    The Qur’an also states that guidance is God’s prerogative and He leaves astray who He wills and seals the hearts of some…but who says the slave doesn’t deserve it?
    “…By this He lets many go astray, and by this He makes many find guidance. But He does not let anyone go astray thereby except those who are iniquitous.” (2:28)

    Now the person may say; hey I’m not iniquitous. But he is of course going to say this, since he is obviously biased in this regard.

    slave master

    Well yes, He is the Master and makes it known that we are servants/slaves. There is no power parity in this relationship. If there was, He would have asked your permission before creating you. Those who want God to be some kind of fishing buddy or uncle should look elsewhere.

    Islam means submission; submission to the will of one’s Creator. Once a person recognizes the relationship between Master and servant for what it is, and what one brings to the table (nothing) and what one has to gain (everything) – then one can move onto the business of making the relationship deeper, on His terms.

    Some of us like how He addresses His servants/slaves lovingly:
    “Say, ‘O My servants who have transgressed against themselves [by sinning], do not despair of the mercy of Allah. Indeed, Allah forgives all sins. Indeed, it is He who is the Forgiving, the Merciful.’” (39:53)

    “And when My servants ask you, [O Muhammad], concerning Me – indeed I am near. I respond to the invocation of the supplicant when he calls upon Me. So let them answer My call and believe in Me so that perhaps they may be rightly guided.” (2:186)

    is there any other possible answer

    Of course there is; let’s wait it out and see, shall we? If you are right, good for you. If we are right, good for us. Seems fair…

    Peace.

  37. Talha says:
    @Anon

    I have no idea how those other people feel with regard to whatever places they feel attached to.

    Seeing the Kaaba is a tremendous experience, at least for me and people I’ve known personally. You’ve been spiritually aligning yourself with this place five times a day from wherever you have been on the earth and you finally come face to face with the physical focal point of where you have been aligning your spiritual compass. It is overwhelming in its simplicity and you feel blessed and thankful to finally see it…spiritually, you feel at home. People cry, like babies.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    , @Anon
  38. Dmitry says:
    @Talha

    You know, it was venerated for centuries before Islam? I need “insert MORE tag”

    [MORE]

    • Replies: @Talha
  39. Talha says:
    @Dmitry

    Its foundation is upon the first house of worship built by mankind for the worship of the One True God. Islam is as old as the Children of Adam (pbuh). That the Kaaba was appropriated for idol worship in a certain period of its long history is merely an aberration.

    You don’t have to believe any of this, but the more they are exploring Saudi Arabia, they are finding that it has a very, very old history.

    “A fossil finger bone found in the heart of Saudi Arabia — in the middle of what is now called the Nefud Desert — dates to at least 85,000 years ago, seemingly belonging to a member of the Homo sapiens species.
    This fossilized bone, measuring just 3.2 centimeters (1.25 inches) in length, is the oldest directly dated Homo sapiens fossil discovered outside of Africa and the neighboring Levant, according to a study published in Monday the journal Nature Ecology and Evolution.“

    https://www-m.cnn.com/2018/04/09/health/saudi-arabia-fossil-finger/index.html?

    The rock carvings they have found there depicting certain animals show that it was not a desert, but a fairly lush and fertile area once.

    Peace.

  40. Anon[141] • Disclaimer says:
    @Talha

    I have no idea how those other people feel with regard to whatever places they feel attached to.

    You don’t feel attached in some way to the field of Gettysburg? That’s why I put that one in.

    You’ve been spiritually aligning yourself with this place

    Well, I don’t know what that means really. But I think the comparison the other commenter made to the Jewish Temple is enlightening and helpful, and I think it does point up the metaphor somewhat.

    Thanks for sharing your experiences.

    • Replies: @Talha
  41. Talha says:
    @Anon

    I do feel a certain attachment to Gettysburg in that a monumental event took place there in our country’s history. Same reason take my kids to watch re-enactments of the Revolutionary War. But it’s not a spiritual attachment, maybe other people feel that way about it.

    The Kaaba is a blessed place and it is considered a blessed direction which is why Muslims face it when doing things like praying, reading Quran, etc. and avoid facing it when doing things like going to the bathroom.

    Peace.

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