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Here is how emigre journalist Bershidsky (who likes mass immigration to Europe but not to Saudi Arabia) sees the end of history (Russia edition):

Whenever and however Putin may leave, any successor will need to revise Russia’s geopolitical choice. Putin has taken two decades to show that he doesn’t have a reverse gear. A new leader will be free from this constraint, and Russia may find itself considering its three choices again.

Europe has a lot to gain if it has the courage. Drawing Russia in could solve some of the European Union’s fundamental problems. With its massive natural-gas reserves, Russia could propel Europe faster toward hard-to-reach environmental goals. With its untapped economic potential and need for immigrants to develop its vast territory, it could be a big help in resolving migration issues. With its recent investment in agile, modern military power — yes, in the Avangard, too — it could provide a backbone for a joint European military.

So Russia’s fate is to be a mineral resource depot, dumping ground for Third Worlders, and cannon fodder for the retirement home and taxpayer funded mansion for Somalis better known as the EU.

All the while bleeding out its human capital to Germany and Scandinavia, as is happening in the more integrated European peripheries today.

Yeah, I don’t think that’s gonna happen.

 
• Category: Ideology • Tags: Europe, Immigration, Russia 
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  1. I think it’s worth mentioning that Bershidsky is a Jew, a liberal Russian Jew, who lives in Germany. And this is the kind of country he wants.

    This is not what anyone in Russia wants. This is not who we are! 🙂

    • Replies: @Mikhail
    , @DFH
    , @byrresheim
  2. WHAT says:

    Let`s be somewhat lenient, he has to live with that surname.

    • Replies: @Mikhail
  3. Mikhail says: • Website
    @Felix Keverich

    I think it’s worth mentioning that Bershidsky is a Jew, a liberal Russian Jew, who lives in Germany. And this is the kind of country he wants.

    This is not what anyone in Russia wants. This is not who we are!

    My disagreements with Bershidsky have nothing to do with his ethno-religious background and current residence.

    He’s referenced as some kind of worthy alternative by the US establishment likes of Timothy Frye:

    https://www.strategic-culture.org/news/2017/10/11/slanting-against-russia-us-establishment-pastime.html

    Excerpt –

    Columbia University’s Timothy Frye recently wrote a defense of the status of Russian studies programs in the US – particularly in the area of political science. Frye was responding to a contrary claim that has been stated in the years since the Soviet Union’s demise. (Leonid Bershidsky isn’t the only one who has expressed that view.)

    https://www.strategic-culture.org/news/2017/07/17/dnc-kiev-regime-collusion-isnt-americas-best-interests.html

    Excerpt –

    Without much of a counter, Leonid Bershidsky’s Johnson’s Russia List-promoted Bloomberg article of July 13, presents the image of Russia as a US adversary, thereby (essentially) excusing Kiev regime-Democratic National Committee (DNC) collusion against Donald Trump during the 2016 US presidential election – unlike the not as well substantiated claim of a Donald Trump-Russian government cooperation against Hillary Clinton in the same period.

    Russia and the US aren’t at war with each other and the Kiev regime isn’t formally allied with the US in the same manner as NATO member countries. It’s extremely shortsighted to readily accept Kiev regime anti-Russian propaganda, designed to seek a greater deterioration of US-Russian relations – with the idea of Ukraine as a valuable strategic bulwark against Russia.

    The obsessive Russia bashing downplays the Kiev regime’s problematical kleptocracy, in territory where a noticeable nationalist violence has suppressed pro-Russian perspectives. With this in mind, it’s wrongheaded to readily oppose an important global player as Russia, by (pretty much) exclusively highlighting Russian wrongs (real and hyped), while downplaying Kiev regime negatives.

    Some of the Kiev regime spin is outlandishly bogus, as evidenced by Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko’s lie that Jews in Crimea haven’t been able to observe their faith since Crimea’s reunification with Russia. Relative to the stretched out MSNBC-CNN attempt to find a Trump-Russia collusion, one can reasonably surmise a possible DNC-Kiev regime false flag effort at pinning a Russian government hack of the DNC. There’re valid reasons to second guess the claimed Russian government hack of the DNC, that note the DNC utilized CrowdStrike cybersecurity source and its ties to the anti-Russian leaning/pro-Kiev regime Atlantic Council.

    • Replies: @Felix Keverich
  4. Mikhail says: • Website
    @WHAT

    Let`s be somewhat lenient, he has to live with that surname.

    The arguably greater shame is how the likes of him and some others get propped over some other sources, which (in a number of instances) offer keener insight.

  5. aedib says:

    (Neo)liberalism and globalism are mental disorders.

    • Replies: @Cagey Beast
    , @AnonFromTN
  6. anon[330] • Disclaimer says:

    As a upside for a Friendly Europe Bershidsky I think paints a fair picture.
    It’s not going to be Russia that rejects it first, it is more something Europeans can’t see.

    Of course Russia’s future is with China not Europe. The whole thing is about potential being missed, not the future.

    On environmental goals, Gas and oil is just a delaying tactic. Either solar continues getting cheaper or Fusion becomes viable, but the earth falls apart if we don’t get a cheap energy source in 50 years (cheap enough to reverse previous abuse). If you have oil or gas under your land right now – make damned sure you sell it in next 30 years. Better still sell your oil companies (like Saudi and Russia try to do). After that it might be worthless – and you’ll look like Venezuela.

  7. @anon

    Oil has numerous applications beyond energy: plastics for instance.

  8. @aedib

    No, the people who advocate neo-liberalism and globalism are perfectly rational actors. They’re paid by billionaires to do this and it obviously harmonises with their own general world-view.

  9. Beckow says:

    …it could be a big help in resolving migration issues

    Western strategy is to re-populate Russia with new people, it would assist in so many of their other goals. Russia, as it has been, with its stubborn streak and unpredictability, is the single biggest threat to the West – the second world that has to be controlled otherwise it undermines everything. They pore over maps and obsessively murmur Cato’s Carthage delenda est. Can you blame them? Russia geographic luck has also been its misfortune.

    The resources and space, water and land, that is what West has always wanted from Russia, a very obvious geographic idea. They have tried to invade and get it by force (Poland, Turkey, Sweden, Germany, France, UK…), or they tried pretty words, all the same. They will keep on trying either prevailing – and destroying the buffer that keeps Europe viable – or ending it all.

    This is a psychosis and it has repeatedly generated waves of hatred against Russia in the West, it is incurable. Putin seems to understand that any concessions to people who hate you only makes them more aggressive, and they will still hate – they would switch from threat rhetoric to mocking the weakness. That’s what Bershitsky means by ‘no reverse gear’.

    • Replies: @Anon
  10. DFH says:
    @Felix Keverich

    Weird how the Jewish vision for Russia is exactly the same as the Jewish vision for the USA/Canada/Australia/Britain/France etc.

    • Agree: RadicalCenter
  11. @Mikhail

    My disagreements with Bershidsky have nothing to do with his ethno-religious background and current residence.

    I don’t believe that debate about the future of Russia should be open to just about anybody. No, Jewish emigrees like Bershidsky do not get a say.

    @ DFH

    Weird how the Jewish vision for Russia is exactly the same as the Jewish vision for the USA/Canada/Australia/Britain/France etc.

    Exactly! Jews will be Jews.

    • Replies: @Mikhail
  12. songbird says:

    I wonder if any linguist has ever tried to track tell-tale political phrases back to 500 years ago or more. There’s something so incredibly eerie about “the end of history” and its many variants like “the right side of history”, “the moral arc of the universe.” It is like DNA speaking and having a grammar.

    I feel that Aztecs must have said it when they were building pyramids of hearts or heads.

  13. inertial says:

    Bershidsky’s screed is directed at Europe, not Russia. This is his message to Europe, in a nutshell: be nicer to Russia after Evil Putler is gone and it will help you solve many of you problems.

    It’s not a bad message. But naturally, the Russians will wonder what’s in it for them.

    • Replies: @Beckow
  14. Beckow says:
    @inertial

    …message to Europe: be nicer

    Europe is generally ‘nice’, the manners are not the issue. But Europe has unwittingly showed that when pushed it will instinctively go back to its historical anti-Russian attitudes. That makes future impossible to negotiate, that door is shut for a generation. I suspect that Putin is a mild version of what will come after him.

    Yes, West will blame the excesses like the meddling hysteria, Saakasvili nutcase, Ukrainian quasi-nazis or de facto supporting ISIS, on ‘those were the times‘ and try to hide them in a memory hole as they try to forget Kosovo. But will it work? People can be fooled again and again, but they usually know when someone hates them – and this went from geo-politics to hatred quite rapidly without the grown-ups in the West stepping in. And that tends to end any discussion.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    , @inertial
  15. Total primary energy consumption in Europe was roughly the same figure in 2016 as it was in 1988.

    1988: 76,677 quadrillion BTU

    2016: 79,661 quadrillion BTU

    Natural gas share of that (24%) increased but reached its current level by the end of the 20th century.

    See for yourself from the US government’s excellent Energy Information Agency: https://www.eia.gov/beta/international/data/browser/

    Nordstream 2 was planned on the assumption that natural gas consumption in Europe would be 50% higher today than it is.

    While Russia is a low-cost producer ideally situated to supply Europe with natural gas, Europe doesn’t need more energy.

    An increase in exports to Europe would require gaining marketshare and/or a European shift in its energy mix.

    The former could happen owing to declining production in the North Sea. There will however be competition from the Gulf, LNG (irrational but when did that ever stop anyone?), energy storage, and coal. There is also a possibility of fracking taking off in Europe.

    The latter could happen if Europe takes its religious fervor regarding climate change seriously. But the Euros aren’t serious. Otherwise the Germans wouldn’t have shut down their nuclear power sector nor would their brown coal production figures be crushing post-reunification records.

    Bershidsky doesn’t know what he’s talking about (surprise).

    That said, Bershidsky has a point on the migration issue. Russia’s strategic rocket forces could play a powerful role in resolving the issue.

    • Replies: @Mitleser
  16. @songbird

    I think someone would have to do a study of Kabbalah to figure out the fascination with chaos and the “end of history”. The Aleynu prayer seems, to me at least, to be a key to this tikkun olam and end of history stuff. None of the geniuses, who still use echo brackets, seem to mention it though.

    https://www.bc.edu/content/dam/files/research_sites/cjl/texts/cjrelations/resources/sourcebook/Aleynu.htm

  17. Anon[748] • Disclaimer says:
    @Beckow

    Russia is the single biggest threat to the West

    Imagine being so dumb to believe this. China is the biggest threat, and mostly to the US as it seeks to prevent another hegemonic peer competitor. Russia is mostly just a sidekick to China these days, a declining great power – but a great power for now nonetheless.

    A lot of the hot air floating around on Russia is just cynical propaganda to increase military spending and to rationalise NATO’s continued existence. As always with propaganda efforts, the mid-level managers and the low-level grunts are too stupid to see through the BS they are spreading. They mostly just care about the paycheck to do the Empire’s bidding anyway.

    The truth is, NATO truly is obsolete. Russia isn’t going to invade Europe and Germans are correct in dissing Trump’s retarded rants about muh military spending. NATO is an organisation in search of a continued purpose to existing and if they have to invent one, then the tired ol’ Russia Bear will do. NATO is also obsolete to deal with China, because China doesn’t threaten Europe. The US is mostly obsessed with China for imperial reasons. That’s why you see a lot more pushback on banning Huawei in Europe, with Germans going back and forth and the Czechs being cagey about it. It’s time for Europe to cut the cord to ZOG.

    • Replies: @Beckow
    , @Sean
  18. @anon

    Photovoltaic cells are semiconductors and are thus subject to the same diminishing returns we’re now observing in integrated circuits.

    They’re also geographically limited, and even if room temperature superconductors are invented (dubious) transmission will still cost money (capex, depreciation).

    There’s thus a ceiling on solar marketshare. We may even be past the rational ceiling in many markets owing to the Green religion. There is no rational reason to put solar panels in Germany for instance, yet it is one of the world’s largest solar producers. Japan, another place where solar panels have no place and ought to be forbidden by law, is now one of the fastest growing markets. This is driven by atomophobia.

    Solar power being intermittent, it must also be paired with other forms of energy generation (generally natural gas) and/or storage (hydro most efficient).

    Nuclear fusion has been 10 years away now for the past 50 years.

    Oil demand will plausibly peak by mid-century or perhaps earlier (Royal Dutch Shell says 2026 for instance), but barring a relaxation in the worldwide plague of hysterical atomophobia natural gas demand is likely to grow for many years to come.

    Populations in developed countries may start falling, or the countries themselves may start physically deteriorating owing to race replacement by biologically inferior invaders. In that event energy demand could actually fall, rather than simply peaking as has historically been the case in Europe and Japan.

    Venezuela looks like Venezuela because it’s governed by orangutans. Russia without its energy exports would be poorer and have to further devalue the Rouble, but would actually be fine. If Saudi Arabia persists on its current course however it is going bankrupt and potentially facing civil war.

    As for the climate change issue, well, I have no idea how it will shake out. Reversing “previous damage” would appear to require not simply a gigantic reduction in emissions, but also sequestration. Presumably the most effective way to do that would be a worldwide change in agricultural practices to encourage the buildup of top soil.

  19. songbird says:
    @anon

    There’s a lot of untapped hydropower in North America. In some places they built dams during the Great Depression and then pulled out the turbines a few years later. It’s probably not enough power to heat homes (I’m sure it falls off in winter) but I think it is enough to have an industrial base, public transport, and for everyday power, like lights.

    Of course, the globalists are trying hard to increase the pop 10x and Africanize it so it won’t be capable of maintaining the infrastructure required to utilize such power.

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
  20. @songbird

    This obviously stems from Christianity.

    I assume such phrases first entered the political lexicon after the development of Postmillennial forms of Protestantism, which suggests the 17th century.

    The belief in Christ withered away, but the belief in building a “perfect” world here on Earth remained as we see from the modern day descendants of the Puritans.

  21. @aedib

    (Neo)liberalism and globalism are mental disorders.

    Can’t agree more. But with one correction: it greatly enriches ~1% of the “sufferers”, who rob the other 99% blind. So, the 99% are clearly sick, while that 1% are likely perfectly healthy scum.

  22. @songbird

    It’s irrational to use electricity for heat owing to the inefficiency of heat engines. The most efficient combined cycle plants reach an efficiency level of around 60%. This is why electric space heaters for instance ought to be forbidden by law.

    If eliminating fossil fuels from heat is the goal, then the appropriate solutions are nuclear combined heat and power (CHP) plants as well as nuclear district heating reactors (China has a pilot reactor in operation).

    Atomophobes who protest the construction of these should be imprisoned in nuclear “waste” storage facilities.

    • Agree: songbird
  23. @Beckow

    I suspect that Putin is a mild version of what will come after him.

    You are right. The West will rue the day when Putin goes. It’s too late, anyway: most Russians are well aware of European hypocrisy. Worse yet, they are aware of European impotence.

    • Replies: @aedib
  24. neutral says:

    need for immigrants

    Surprising that he says this since that would imply white people immigrating. He must know that Russia does not a have a booming youth demographic so it won’t mean hordes of Russians moving in, he is probably saying this so his support of pro third world immigration into Europe looks like its not really about making Europe non white.

  25. Beckow says:
    @Anon

    …Imagine being so dumb to believe this. China is the biggest threat

    As they see it, China is a separate civilisation, but not a threat to Western dominance. China is just out there, it can be poor or rich, it can be everywhere or behind its wall. It is not a threat to the Western narrative, not yet. It is similar with Islam, although West has underestimated it and tried to use it.

    There is an infatuation with China and the other Third World cultures among the Western elite that comes out of ennui. But Russia is different: similar enough and perceived as something that could be had, something that could be taken over. Carthage delenda est, the old men in think tanks whisper to each other. They are driven by regrets, so many times, they came so close, and then ‘mistakes were made’.

    Without Nato, the ‘Atlanticist’ control over Europe and the West in general would collapse. So trying to protect Nato, to give it a role, is a consequence of this primary goal of having a ‘Washington-London’ centric world. Otherwise the center of gravity would shift to the east (and I don’t mean China), it would shift to Germany-Central Europe-Mediterranean-Russia…back to where civilization center of gravity was before 1945, and even more so previously. But without Russia, or with a militarized border with Russia that cannot happen. This is a rational self-interest, but that doesn’t mean that it won’t backfire.

  26. neutral says:

    It is safe to assume that Russia must accept that the EU will become increasingly hostile with Russia. I say this because the elite of the EU tend to follow the ideology of the USA, as Western Europe becomes ever more non white it will become more strict with all sorts of SJW norms. The biggest violation of Russia is that it is mostly white, how can relations ever improve when Western Europe is no longer white and is adhering to the anti white ideology that will be much worser than it is now?

  27. Dmitry says:

    Joining the EU was one of Mikhail Prokhorov’s famous presidential election ideas in 2012. There is nothing new with this proposal and it has been discussed many times.

    The advantage of joining the EU would be enormous transfer of wealth from EU to Russia, as a result of their “structural adjustment” program.

    And it is precisely for that reason, that EU would never accept Russia (for EU to fund Russia as it does Poland today, would bankrupt the EU).

    Disadvantage of joining EU – it would be easier not just for brain drain of Russia to Western Europe, but a mass migration of the younger section of the population. The demographic impact could be scary in some cities. There would be no cultural insulation either.

    As for third world immigrants. They would not settle in Russia (anymore than they do in Poland or Lithuania today) – but they might become interested in Russia to the extent they could get an EU passport which would allow them to later live in the immigrant-welfare paradises of Sweden/UK/Denmark/Netherlands/Germany, etc.

    • Agree: Mr. Hack
    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  28. Mr. Hack says:

    With its untapped economic potential and need for immigrants to develop its vast territory, it could be a big help in resolving migration issues.

    I don’t think that Bershidsky says anything too controversial here? It’s plain enough for anybody to see that Russia’s own population growth will not suffice to develop its own vast European territory, much less the even vaster Siberian and Eastern ones. It would be interesting to see an accurate accounting of the breakup of new immigrants to the Far East and to Siberia. I suspect that the Chinese would be at the top of the list. White immigrants to these inhospitable lands in the past were mostly made up of Russians and Ukrainians, and a much smaller share of Polish prisoners of war. There doesn’t seem much today (or on the drawing board) to entice these sorts of European immigrants to help populate these more than vast lands. In fact, the only white European immigrants that you hear about moving to Russia today, are a motley group of starving ‘entrepreneurs’ and flamboyant tax evaders.

  29. @Mr. Hack

    I suspect that the Chinese would be at the top of the list.

    iirc AK has debunked the “Chinese are taking over Siberia” thesis several times in the past.
    And “help in resolving migration issues” sounds an awful lot like “Russia has a lot of space, it should take its fair share of the population surplus of the failed societies of the Mideast and subsaharan Africa”. Not a good idea, not in the best interest of Russians.
    But anyway, as has already been pointed out, this will probably remain fantasy anyway…it does look likely that Putin’s successor will be more nationalistic, not less (in retrospect the Putin era might well be seen as a lost chance for establishing good relations with Russia…certainly from a German perspective; at least Putin occasionally said nice things about Germany which nobody else does). I have to admit I find the sense of anti-European grievance and resentment expressed by some commenters here (admittedly mostly not Russians actually living in Russia) disturbing, this bodes ill for the future.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    , @songbird
    , @Adam
  30. melanf says:
    @Mr. Hack

    It would be interesting to see an accurate accounting of the breakup of new immigrants to the Far East and to Siberia. I suspect that the Chinese would be at the top of the list.

    Very funny

    Number of the persons who received Russian citizenship for the first half of 2018

    Ukraine 39582 people,
    Kazakhstan 21266 people,
    Armenia 12989 people,
    Uzbekistan 9879 people,
    Moldova 7759 people,
    Kyrgyzstan 4392 people,
    Georgia 1150 people,
    Belarus 2140 people,
    Vietnam 199 people,
    Israel 76 people,
    USA 53 people,
    China 34 people,
    India 24 people,

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    , @AnonFromTN
    , @aedib
  31. inertial says:
    @Beckow

    You are looking at it from the perspective of our cozy Russophile bubble (or community if you like.) From that perspective, sure, what Bershidsky said is ridiculous for any number of reasons.

    But Bershidsky’s call for Russia-Europe cooperation is addressed at the European mainstream. Same mainstream that’s currently obsessed about Russia engineering Brexit, Catalonia independence, French protests, etc.

    Bershidsky presents his case in the mildest possible way. It goes without saying that 100% of the present difficulties in the European-Russian relationship are due to perniciousness of Evil Putler. But after Putler is gone perhaps it makes sense to go a little easier on Russia? It’s going to be good for your, dear European Establishment, dearest SJW obsessions. Environment! Refugees!

    Note how Bershidsky says that Europe will need courage to reach out to Russia. This shows how radical his proposal is from the mainstream POV. He is the one who needs courage. I am sure that even as we speak, someone out there is calling him Kremlin stooge for his proposal.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    , @Beckow
    , @reiner Tor
  32. Mr. Hack says:
    @inertial

    Has Karlin included statistics showing who actually is leaving home and settling in the Russian Far East and Siberia? Also, a lot of settlers seem to be illegal and may not be included within any published statistical records.

    If Russia wants to keep pace with its more populous neighbors, it will need to import immigrants ‘of color’ Not too many German or French want to move to these parts (and do what, work in the forests and oil fields as drillers). I suspect that good paying engineering jobs are still going mostly to Russians and Ukrainians.

    • Replies: @Swarthy Greek
  33. @Dmitry

    Of course, those parasites won’t settle in Russia: there are no freebies for them, and won’t be.

    I have no doubt that Russia won’t join the EU even if the EU would want it (which is very unlikely). Russia won’t cede its sovereignty to some cucks in Brussels. After the catastrophe of 1990-s nobody proposing this would ever get more than 10% vote in Russian elections (in 100% honest elections people like that won’t even get 5%). Russia is not an inconsequential third-rate country like those that joined the EU in the last 20-25 years, or like the hopeless losers who still want to join the EU expecting gifts from it (which won’t be forthcoming, as the EU has no resources even to sustain itself, let alone to waste on aspiring shitholes).

    Besides, by the time Russia and Europe move to a reasonably healthy relationship, there will be no EU. Some kind of economic cooperation with Germany is possible, unless Anglosphere succeeds in its never-ending scheming to make Russia and Germany clash, like they did twice in the twentieth century.

    • Replies: @DFH
    , @Dmitry
  34. DFH says:
    @Mr. Hack

    a much smaller share of Polish prisoners of war

    Do you have any more information about this? I thought that all of the Polish POWs were sent away after the start of Barbarossa.

    • Replies: @AP
  35. Mr. Hack says:
    @melanf

    I stated to the Russian Far East and to Siberia, not European Russia.

    • Replies: @melanf
  36. @melanf

    Interesting stats. Looks like the shittier the shithole, the more people from it want Russian citizenship. India breaks this rule, though. It should have been #2, right after Ukraine. I guess they move to formerly Great formerly Britain instead, as in Russia they won’t be able to rape white girls with impunity.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    , @Dmitry
  37. DFH says:
    @AnonFromTN

    unless Anglosphere succeeds in its never-ending scheming to make Russia and Germany clash, like they did twice in the twentieth century.

    lol

  38. Mr. Hack says:
    @AnonFromTN

    You’re from Ukraine, yet opted for US citizenship, rather than Russian? You’ve mentioned here before that your mother was Ukrainian, but how about your father? You never seem to mention the ethnicity (or is it religious preference) of your father?…

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  39. @Mr. Hack

    Don’t you worry about my Russian citizenship, I have that, too. At the time of the breakup of the USSR I lived in Russia, so it did not require any effort on my part. For someone who likes to travel it is convenient to have Russian and US citizenship: there are quite a few countries where only a person with a death wish would go with the US passport.

    I kind of understand your tribal obsession, but some people are more civilized than that, including many Russians. As a former military commander of Gorlovka Bezler said: “My mother is Ukrainian, my father German. So, who am I? A Russian!” Russian is not a nationality, it’s a state of mind. People with primeval mentality won’t understand.

  40. Mr. Hack says:

    So your father and yourself by extension are natural born ‘cosmopolitans’. I’ve personally known others with your particular ethnic mix that have shown a much greater respect for Ukraine, its people and its language. Unfortunately, you’re not one of them.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  41. @Mr. Hack

    The Chinese north east is losing population fast as the northern Han migrate towards the coast. Chinese salaries are almost the same as Russian salaries in dollar terms. Why would a northern Han migrate illegally to Siberia when he could find work easily at higher wages in the much more developed areas of China?Who would rather live in Kamchatsky Petropavlosk or Khabarovsk than Shenzen or HK? China also has a very low TFR, lower than Russia so your chinese takeover of Siberia theory is complete horseshit.

  42. melanf says:
    @Mr. Hack

    I stated to the Russian Far East and to Siberia, not European Russia

    It is very easy to see what the population looks like in the far East, right on the border with China. Each school and University post photos of students. Here is a typical photo (far East, right on the border with China)

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    , @DFH
  43. fish says:

    So Russia’s fate is to be a mineral resource depot, dumping ground for Third Worlders, and cannon fodder for the retirement home and taxpayer funded mansion for Somalis better known as the EU.

    Shit! You would think that Russia had suffered enough!?

  44. Mr. Hack says:
    @melanf

    These photos look a little bit too bleached out to be accurate. Perhaps, there are schools where white Russians predominate and other schools for all of the rest (asiatics)? Or maybe there just aren’t any asiatics in that part of the world? Or thirdly, perhaps the Chinese and Koreans that live in the Far East don’t send their children to schools? I think that those are the only three options?

  45. Dmitry says:
    @AnonFromTN

    Looks like the shittier the shithole, the more people from it want Russian citizenship.

    Kazakhstan is not a shithole (and they are generally cool people from there of different nationalities).

    But yes, this list with 13 countries. Excluding 5 countries in the list (China, Belarus, Kazakhstan, Israel and USA), leaving 8 countries – all are citizens of countries with GDP per capita PPP below $12,000, which are adopting citizenship of Russia.

    No EU country has GDP per capita PPP below $12,000.

    Poorest EU country by this measure (GDP per capita PPP) is Bulgaria, whose GDP per capita PPP is $23,207.

    EU (imaginary) membership would not produce any mass immigration to Russia.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  46. @Mr. Hack

    That’s kind of a dumb discussion though, you can’t really believe that Bershidsky is referring to Chinese when he writes of Russia “helping” to resolve the EU’s “migration issues”? It means being opened up to Mideastern and African immigration.

    • Agree: YetAnotherAnon
    • Replies: @Beckow
  47. Dmitry says:
    @AnonFromTN

    Within such imaginary EU membership, third world origin immigrants will not live in Russia, as within EU all have equal rights to live in any other EU country they want.

    Danger is not that Africans of Sweden will suddenly rush from Stockholm to live in Tolyatti. But more the other way round, that young people of cities like Tolyatti will rush to Stockholm to work in Starbucks (where the salary for serving coffee would be maybe $14 per hour).

    There’s already a large problem of intranational emigration to cities like Moscow, where salary difference for many jobs is not in same dimension as would exist in relation to North Western European countries within the EU.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  48. melanf says:
    @Mr. Hack

    Perhaps, there are schools where white Russians predominate and other schools for all of the rest (asiatics)? Or maybe there just aren’t any asiatics in that part of the world?

    The first is wrong, the second is true

    According to the “racial” composition, the Russian far East (near China) is Eastern Europe. Even Moscow and St. Petersburg are more ” Asian”

    Or thirdly, perhaps the Chinese and Koreans that live in the Far East don’t send their children to schools?

    Americans refused personal cars, Russians drink water on holidays, Germans stopped working, Chinese and Koreans don’t send their children to schools. Which of these statements is the most incredible?

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  49. Beckow says:
    @German_reader

    …opened up to Mideastern and African immigration.

    And India. Western Europe’s migration issues are not solvable, they can only be managed. The best thing Russia can do for Europe is to keep its territory from opening up as a corridor to Europe.

    Bershitsky wants to dump millions of surplus migrants into Russia. His ‘well-meaning’ article comes down to: Russia needs to apologize for Putin, take a few million migrants, and ship cheap energy and resources to Europe. And he is a ‘moderate’…this will be fun when it really gets going.

    • Replies: @German_reader
    , @DFH
  50. @Dmitry

    In some ways Kazakhstan is a powder keg. Many white people there are preparing for ethnic cleansing, similar to what happened in the other four post-Soviet republics in Central Asia. Apparently, some are running away w/o waiting for that to happen.

    I agree that the people in Kazakhstan we ever meet are cool. But these are either white people, or civilized urban Kazakhs for whom Russian is a mother tongue. I know several people from Kazakhstan, all good people. All of them fall into these categories, though. Kazakh nationalism is popular among uneducated village dwellers. However, as they breed much faster, the demographic situation in Kazakhstan is rapidly changing to the disadvantage of civilized people of both races. For now, Nazarbayev’s regime controls tribal forces, but he is very old and won’t live forever. After him, all bets are off.

    • Replies: @Epigon
    , @Dmitry
    , @The Scalpel
  51. @Beckow

    Western Europe’s migration issues are not solvable, they can only be managed.

    Of course they are solvable, it’s merely a question of political will and what kind of methods one is willing to use.
    At least it would be easily possible to stop new arrivals from coming, even without resorting to really extreme measures.
    Don’t really know this Bershidsky fellow, but his proposal is total fantasy anyway, all the more ridiculous at a time when the EU increasingly looks like a failed project that could break apart in the not too distant future. The kind of EU-Russia integration he proposes would have been unrealistic even at the best of times, today it’s laughable.

    • Replies: @Beckow
  52. @Dmitry

    Take into account that prices in Moscow are also 2-3 times higher than in the provinces. So, the difference in actual buying power is not as great as the difference in nominal salaries. But Moscow provides more opportunities than provincial cities, Starbucks not being the most attractive of them. This was true back in the USSR times, hence a lot of people engaged in various shenanigans to move to Moscow.

  53. @Mr. Hack

    It’s not so much controversial as it is stupid. We can cut Bershidsky some slack in that he’s not the first person to have this stupid thought. After all, it was official Soviet policy.

    There’s a lot of people who have the idea that because Russia’s land mass is so vast, it must have vast economic potential. Pity that it’s so thinly populated and thus can’t develop.

    The reality is that most of it is useless tundra.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  54. Anonymous[248] • Disclaimer says:

    If Gorbachev was still in power, he’d implement Bershidsky’s proposals like a shot……….

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  55. Mr. Hack says:
    @Thorfinnsson

    Useless tundra, or a vast repository of minerals and forests and woodlands? It’s freakin extremely large!

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    , @Thorfinnsson
  56. Anonymous[213] • Disclaimer says:

    There’s no ‘welfare state’ in Russia.

    That fact alone is enough to keep out the third world trash.

    I mean just *who* really is dumb enough to leave a tropical country to freeze their balls off whilst living in poverty? – at least at home the tropical trash have got sunshine.

    Curiously, Finland is inundated with black/brown riff-raff. The difference is that the stupid Finns give the trash warm centrally heated apartments, free health care, free money etc etc.

  57. @Mr. Hack

    There is nothing wrong with Ukrainian culture or beautiful Ukrainian language. There is everything wrong with the current murderous kleptocratic regime. Compared to the lying thieves and compradores now in Kiev, even Quislings look patriotic and honest.

  58. @Mr. Hack

    Yellow Peril is quite out of date.

    China and South Korea have below replacement fertility. Chinese and South Koreans also don’t want to move to Siberia–they want to move to Shanghai and Seoul. Salaries in Chinese cities are just as good as Russian ones now, and you get to speak with fellow Chinese instead of struggling with Russian. South Korea is now as rich as Japan.

    There are North Koreans in the Russian Far East, I believe working as guest workers. I don’t believe their families are allowed with them.

    China also doesn’t suffer from “population pressure” or anything like that. The country is, surprisingly, a net exporter of food. And China’s border with Russia is thinly populated, at least by Chinese standards. Heilongjiang province has 38 million people, but the province is larger than Germany. Population density is 220 people per square mile, which ranks it 28th out of 34 Chinese administrative divisions.

    Chinese aren’t illegally migrating into Russia, instead they illegally migrate into Shanghai and live in illegal shanty towns. In fact theses densest parts of China, places like Beijing and Shanghai, have their population officially capped by the state (as a result of a bizarre obsession with Friedrich Engels).

    • Agree: melanf
    • Replies: @AP
  59. @Anonymous

    Then thank goodness that this cuck is no longer in power.

  60. Anonymous[213] • Disclaimer says:
    @Mr. Hack

    Just look how, historically, how the Czars and the Soviets were forced to ‘recruit’ labour to work in Siberia.

    Do you really, seriously think that the black/brown trash the likes of which are seen loafing the streets of London and Paris will really, honestly, willingly go *alive* to work the Siberian gold fields?

  61. aedib says:
    @AnonFromTN

    Are you sure? I would bet that the next president will be a Putin’s choice. May be Medvedev (or someone like him). I don’t see some real siloviky like Patrushev as next president. Anyway, the succession game is not open yet.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  62. Anonymous[213] • Disclaimer says:

    Of course, in the long run massive third world immigration will ‘blow up’ – in the literal sense – western Europe, and perhaps the entire EU area.
    Only a fool can doubt this.

    Strategically thinking, such an internal self-committed blow-up can only *benefit* Russia.

    It’s just a case of wise leaders – that’s a big if – sitting quietly and waiting it out.

  63. Mr. Hack says:
    @melanf

    I find it difficult to find any hardcore statistics that break down the ethnic composition of the Far East? Most commentrary alludes to the fact that its majority is of Russian/Ukrainian mixture. But how much exactly? Most commentary also points out that its a very sparsely populated area with about 6.3 million inhabitants, and shrinking as we mince our words here. I’m sure that the larges cities have a solid core of white Slavic admixture, but how about in the countryside and closer to the Chinese and Korean borders?…

    • Replies: @Epigon
    , @melanf
    , @DreadIlk
  64. @Mr. Hack

    Minerals and energy are already being exploited throughout Siberia. This is not labor intensive and doesn’t require large population centers. No different than the way oil and fish is heavily exploited in Alaska (population 740,000 in a territory about the size of Western Europe) along with oil and beef heavily developed in the Canadian province of Alberta (population 660,000 in a territory the size of France). And these places both have large tourism sectors.

    There is probably room to improve timber production however, as Russia is only the sixth largest timber exporter in the world (amazingly Germany is #5). But timber harvesting isn’t labor intensive either. Today we have power saws, skidders, and timberjacks. I suspect what’s needed here is transportation infrastructure, above all else timber roads.

    But I suspect the number one area where Siberia has a lot of promise is the tourism sector. It is as I understand an area of stunning beauty, but one which receives few visitors especially from overseas.

  65. Epigon says:
    @AnonFromTN

    Hopefully they go full retard so southern Siberia can be returned to where it belongs.

    Ideally, Russia would repatriate all Whites from -stans of former USSR.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  66. Epigon says:
    @Mr. Hack

    Why do you believe that ethnic Chinese and Koreans would immigrate there?

    Have you forgotten the Russian nineties, early 2000s?
    No, seriously, why would any of East Asians willing to emmigrate pick Russian Far East as their destination of choice?

    • Replies: @aedib
    , @Mr. Hack
    , @melanf
  67. @aedib

    Medvedev (or another liberal nonentity like him) in Russia has a chance of a snowflake in Hell. But we’ll see soon enough: Putin is not a spring chicken, to put it mildly. Even though he is healthy, he’d be gone in 10 years or sooner.

    • Replies: @neutral
    , @aedib
  68. aedib says:
    @melanf

    Ukraine 39582 people,
    Kazakhstan 21266 people,

    It would be interesting to know percentages of little Russians and big Russians for the first line and the percentage of white and nonwhite migrants for the second one.
    I would not be surprised if several hundred draft-dodgers from Western Ukraine are found between those 40k migrants from Ukraine.

    • Replies: @melanf
  69. DFH says:
    @melanf

    Those photos really make you notice the distinctive Slavic nose type

    • Replies: @melanf
    , @silviosilver
  70. DFH says:
    @Beckow

    They are very easily solvable. European governments could just start towing the boats back and respond to any attempts at violence with force. Fortunately the Mediterranean makes keeping people out very easy.

    • Replies: @Beckow
  71. @Epigon

    All whites (and civilized locals) have already left four out of five -stans. That brought those -stans back ~100 years. Serves them right. Kazakhstan is the last -stan standing in the twenty first century. We’ll see whether it remains there, or goes the way of the other -stans. There is much greater fraction of white residents there than in the other four. So, they might leave with the territory they inhabit (Western and Northern Kazakhstan). Not that Russia needs any more territory.

  72. aedib says:
    @Epigon

    “Chinese taking Siberia from those evil Ruskies” is the wet dream of many Russophobes. Just wishful thinking.
    The actual migration flows in China go to the rich coastal cities.

  73. melanf says:
    @Mr. Hack

    Тhe national composition of the population of Primorsky Krai. 2010
    Nationality. Absolute number. % of the total population .
    Russian. 1 861 808. | 89.89%.
    Ukrainians. 94 058. | 4.54%.
    Koreans. 17 899. | 0.86%.
    Tartars. 14 549. | 0.70%.
    Belarusians. 11 627. | 0.56%.
    Armenians. 5 641. | 0.27%.
    Azerbaijanians. 4 411. | 0.21%.
    Mordovians. 4 307. | 0.21%.
    Сhinese . 3 840. | 0.19%.
    Germans. 3 578. | 0.17%.
    Chuvash. 3 287. | 0.16%.
    Moldavians. 2 288. | 0.11%.
    Bashkirs. 2 101. | 0.10%.
    Uzbeks. 1 634. | 0.08%.
    Kazakhs. 1 296. | 0.06%.
    Mari. 1 151. | 0.06%.
    Udmurts. 1 130. | 0.05%.
    Poles. 1 060. | 0.05%.
    Jews. 1 059. | 0.05%.

  74. Anonymous[248] • Disclaimer says:

    China is the *only* winner in the Economist pushed globalisation game.

    Onwards and upwards she goes, to totally dominate the 21st century economically and industrially.
    Meanwhile the moribund EU continues to stagnate and stagnate until it’s a global irrelevance.

    Where should Russia sell its resources?

    Why, it’s a no brainer.

  75. Mr. Hack says:
    @Thorfinnsson

    Also, don’t forget the cultivation and retrieval of the highly coveted musk oil gotten from the glands of the ever decreasing siberian musk deer. No real man’s toiletry set is ever really complete without this useful accoutrement? 🙂

  76. neutral says:
    @AnonFromTN

    Putin is not a spring chicken

    Interestingly enough he is still younger than people like Trump, Sanders, Biden, and all these people are seeking to get elected. He is the same age as Elizabeth Warren, and in America some people argue that she is a fresh new face in politics.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  77. Mr. Hack says:
    @Epigon

    No, of course not. I’ve in mind those that just live on the other side of the border, that have been trickling in for several centuries. Just how many?…..

    • Replies: @Jaakko Raipala
  78. Anonymous[248] • Disclaimer says:
    @German_reader

    No one can be more ‘anti-European’ than Europe’s current crop of leaders.

    Who do you think is inviting all those third world bastards in?

  79. Anonymous[213] • Disclaimer says:

    Speaking as a European, in all honesty, I must state that a world with an insignificant Europe would be a better world.

    I say that because I have *absolutely zero respect* for the filth and shit who currently misrule Europe and are bringing in the third world by the boatload.

    As the Americans say, ‘put a fork in it, it’s done’.

  80. Beckow says:
    @German_reader

    …a question of political will and what kind of methods one is willing to use.

    Let me explain why I think the issue is not really solvable:

    There is a critical mass of unassimilable migrants in the main Western European countries. They have come to dominate all major cities, from London to Berlin. They are allowed to bring in more of their relatives, so even with complete control of Mediterranean, the family-reunification/cousin marriage will continue. The social benefits that they most use are not the meagre cash payments that could be cut easily, they are using the education, medical and housing social systems. The abuse is literally built into the systems. The parasites have moved in and the social system cannot change – it can collapse completely, but it cannot be reformed at this point.

    As it looks today, the required political will is a few years away, if ever. The methods required become ever harsher with each year, so the odds of implementation are less. There was a tipping point in 2010-15, and people ignored it. Now the choices are: managing it (but it will be miserable), geographic separations, or a complete collapse that could free up all kinds of harsh methods, but is unpredictable and very unpleasant to live through.

    What is insane is that there is still a very powerful elite group pushing yet another option: accelerate the migration-open borders-globalization process. Make it ubiquitous, suppress any opposition, and change Europe even faster. And they think they are winning. Nothing I have seen suggests that they are not. That Russian lebensraum might be needed after all, Bershitsky doesn’t just talk sh..t, he means it.

    • Replies: @German_reader
    , @Anonymous
  81. songbird says:
    @German_reader

    I kind of like the idea of settling migrants in Russia – in a gulag archipelago in Siberia. Not permanently, but just long enough for word to get back.

  82. Mikhail says: • Website
    @Felix Keverich

    I don’t believe that debate about the future of Russia should be open to just about anybody. No, Jewish emigrees like Bershidsky do not get a say.

    Exactly! Jews will be Jews.

    Tongue in cheek, change one word to these:

    Not a fan of Ioffe, Gessen, Albats et al, while giving some credence to the Jews on the brain term, as they (Jews) are by no means monolithic.

    Writing about the future of Russia and having a say in it aren’t by default the same.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  83. @neutral

    You can’t compare the US and RF. It’s one thing to be a puppet – dementia only helps to play this role, and another thing to actually run the country where you are a leader.

  84. DreadIlk says:
    @Mr. Hack

    I forgive your ignorance.

    Russian Far East in any documentary or news video you only see whites. It’s pretty inhospitable and Russians are pretty xenophobic, especially to cultures that are more aggressive then them. So I am not surprised that Far East remains mostly white.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    , @Mr. Hack
    , @Mikhail
  85. melanf says:
    @aedib

    It would be interesting to know percentages of little Russians and big Russians for the first line and the percentage of white and nonwhite migrants for the second one.


    That is, approximately 80% of migrants to Russia are “white”

    I would not be surprised if several hundred draft-dodgers from Western Ukraine are found between those 40k migrants from Ukraine.

    without doubt

  86. @Mikhail

    Writing about the future of Russia and having a say in it aren’t by default the same

    Now, this is the crux of the matter. All those bershidkys, albats’, and gessens can write what they want (or whatever they are paid for), they have no say in the future of Russia.

  87. Beckow says:
    @inertial

    …mainstream that’s currently obsessed about Russia engineering Brexit, Catalonia independence, French protests, etc.

    That is true, unfortunately. But is is also an oxymoron: a rational mainstream in an advanced civilised society cannot be a mainstream and also believe in the kind of meddling nonsense that they are obsessed with. Nonsense is nonsense, and if the grown-ups in the West refuse to call it out, well, what kind of a civilisation is that?

    By taking it seriously and trying to meet it half-way – as Bershitsky tries – nothing gets done. It validates the nonsense. The meddling narrative is over-the-top, it is disconnected from real life, it cannot be accommodated. We have reached a true impasse.

  88. aedib says:
    @AnonFromTN

    May you give us a likely profile of the next Russian president? Someone like… Gerasimov?

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  89. @DreadIlk

    The South of the Far East (Vladivostok and areas to the South of it) is not particularly inhospitable, it’s just unspoiled (some would say under-developed). Russians (like Americans) are not xenophobic: they easily accept people of any race and nationality who behave normally. But they won’t put up with aggressive tribalist scum (unlike emasculated Western Europeans, who appear to do just that nowadays).

  90. Mr. Hack says:
    @DreadIlk

    Russian Far East in any documentary or news video you only see whites.

    You can stage events anyway you like. Likewise, society could be very stratified along ethnic and racial lines. I don’t have all of the answers, only posing some questions. No ‘forgiveness’ is necessary you ignoramus.

  91. @aedib

    I can’t name any names. But the next Russian president would be much less tolerant to liars (won’t call the US and EU “partners”) and would likely conduct more assertive foreign policy. This would be actually enabled by the economic and military developments on Putin’s watch. The people will never again tolerate gorbachovs or yeltsins, sober or drunk.

    • Replies: @Swarthy Greek
  92. Mikhail says: • Website
    @DreadIlk

    Russian Far East in any documentary or news video you only see whites. It’s pretty inhospitable and Russians are pretty xenophobic, especially to cultures that are more aggressive then them. So I am not surprised that Far East remains mostly white.

    If Russians were so xenophobic, there wouldn’t the mesh of different ethnic groups living on Russian territory over a lengthy period.

    Without checking the stats, Russia has a noticeable number of on-Slavs living in its far-east.

  93. Beckow says:
    @DFH

    The ones coming on boats are mostly a distraction. Check out the families coming in at Heathrow or Schipol airports – legally: to ‘reunite families’, ‘marry’, ‘study’, do ‘business’.

  94. @AnonFromTN

    What about Arthyukov?Nikitin Maybe? Both are relatively young, competent and loyal to Putin.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  95. melanf says:
    @DFH

    Those photos really make you notice the distinctive Slavic nose type

    Me seems that there is no “Slavic type nose.” Slavs (and Russians in particular) have different origins and different phenotypes. To distinguish them on anthropological grounds from other peoples of Europe is almost impossible. If you think otherwise-determine (without Google) where the Slavs in the pictures

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    , @neutral
  96. Dmitry says:
    @AnonFromTN

    I’m sceptical the main reason different nationalities are escaping Kazakhstan, is because of supposed rise of caveman nationalism there. People from Kazakhstan (including Kazakhs) I had met abroad, had always seemed nice, multinationally tolerant people.

    I would cynically say, it’s much more they leave because due to their nationality, they have opportunity to live in better countries, than Kazakhstan. They leave because it’s easy for them to leave.

    Let’s be honest, for example, if you can because of your ancestors qualify for things like a German passport (opening the whole EU), why would you stay in Kazakhstan?

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  97. Adam says:
    @German_reader

    You have a habit decrying ‘anti-European’ sentiment, but there is vastly more hatred of Russia and Russians in western Europe than the other way around. Even the nationalists in Germany tend to buy into “Russians are asiatic savages, Slava Ukraina”.

    I’m a Germanophile personally but there’s not much hope for truly good Germany-Russia relations unless your people change your attitude.

    • Replies: @German_reader
  98. @Swarthy Greek

    Sorry, I spent only ~8 weeks out of the last 27 years in Russia, so I don’t know the names. I think in the successor the loyalty to the country would be more important than loyalty to Putin. After all, internal policies of his regime (and people like Medvedev and Kudrin, not to mention universally hated Chubais) are tolerated in Russia largely because of Putin’s patriotic foreign policy. In my view, the regime is abusing this, showcasing Ukrainian madness, as well as American and European duplicity, to justify itself in the eyes of the population. There will likely be a significant correction of internal policy, which will make many of the remaining mega-thieves (oligarchs) very unhappy. Personally, I wish them all to rot in Hell. Maybe because I am biased – I never stole anything.

    • Replies: @Swarthy Greek
  99. melanf says:
    @Epigon

    Why do you believe that ethnic Chinese and Koreans would immigrate there?

    Well, Koreans from Central Asia migrate EN masse to Russia (with minor migration to South Korea). But for these Koreans native language – Russian..

  100. @Beckow

    A lot of what you write is unfortunately correct. My point was that these demographic changes aren’t the result of unstoppable natural processes, but the result of political decisions – which even today could, at least to some extent, be reversed. But you’re right that Western Europe’s political class seems rather intent on doubling down on their mass immigration project (this became very clear this year in Germany with the UN global compact for migration being pushed through by Merkel’s government against all opposition). There won’t be a pleasant end to this either way (though I know which outcome I prefer).

    • Replies: @Beckow
  101. @Adam

    Even the nationalists in Germany tend to buy into “Russians are asiatic savages, Slava Ukraina”.

    Nonsense, the “nationalist” party in Germany AfD is the most pro-Russian one and opposed to further confrontation with Russia.
    Genuine Nazis may be different, but they’re a fringe phenomenon.

    • Replies: @Adam
    , @AnonFromTN
  102. @melanf

    Pure Russians (although pure nationalities exist only in the minds of demented rabid nationalists) look very much like Northern Germans: blue eyes, blond hair, relatively small nose, widish face. But in general, the population in Russia has vary diverse phenotypes (and represents more than 100 different nationalities of two races: Caucasian and Asian).

    • Replies: @melanf
  103. @Dmitry

    Well, I know one half-Kazakh half-German girl (nice and intelligent), but she lives and works in the US. BTW, she speaks Russian fluently (can’t check her Kazakh, but that language has too few words for the developed society, anyway), knows Russian classical music, and has fairly good English.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  104. Adam says:
    @German_reader

    Fair enough. I’m just going by personal experience. Still, you have to admit that Germany is largely a Russophobic country while Russians tend to be indifferent or even positive towards Germans.

  105. @Thorfinnsson

    Alberta would have over three million people, not 660,000.

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
  106. @inertial

    I’ve seen him called a Kremlin stooge in a Facebook comment thread.

    • Replies: @byrresheim
  107. @German_reader

    Maybe they just remember that German troops were in the Baltics and in Ukraine in the 1940-s. A fat lot of good it did Germany.

  108. @UrbaneFrancoOntarian

    Sorry–read the wrong line on Wiki while typing.

    Still not densely populated, and worth noting that in the oil sands (Fort McMurray) very few people live.

    Of course the original home of Alberta oil, the Turner Valley, is near Calgary.

  109. AP says:
    @DFH

    Not only Polish POWs but also Polish deportees. My wife is partially descended from them (a Polish family avoided getting shipped West, ended up getting shipped East).

  110. AP says:
    @Thorfinnsson

    I saw lots of Chinese traders in the Urals in the early 2000s, but no Chinese families. Presumably they are gone now, as China’s economy has improved.

  111. @AnonFromTN

    I agree that Chubais should be shot and buried in a ditch.The son of a bitch crashed the Russian economy and was rewarded with getting to seat on Rosnano’s board.
    I actually like most of Kudrin’s economic policies.Kudrin’s funds saved the Russian state from the 08 and 15 recessions. Had Putin and Medvedev slowed down the growth of military expenditures in 2011 just like Kudrin advised it Russia would be in a much better position economically. Guys like Sechin are much more nefarious to Russia. Kudrin’s inoffensive statements on FP have zero effect on policy making. Sechin’s bailout request in 2015 almost brought the economy down.

  112. Mr. Hack, I am not sure why you are concern-trolling about Chinese swarming the Siberian border, but it is not very realistic.

    Why don’t you try Central Asians instead, which is actually halfway plausible?

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  113. @Thorfinnsson

    TF

    I value your comments.

    Let me therefore ask you 4 questions.

    1. Do you believe that the average temperature on earth has risen over the past 40 years in sharp contrast with respect to say the previous 40 years?

    2. If the answer is yes, do you think the primary cause is human activity?

    3. If the answer is yes to 1 do you think that the set of measure propounded by the COP2x types can reverse the process?

    4. Independently — if the worse predictions made by the GIEC and similar bodies were to occur, would this necessarily be a bad thing?

    I answer as follows;
    1. Yes
    2, can’t decide — but leaning No
    3. A definitive No
    4. No. The climate has been warmer before in historical times and it was fine and dandy.

    What do YOU think?

  114. Mr. Hack says:
    @Hyperborean

    Asking a few questions is verboten at this blogsite, or what? Noone has currently answered this elementary question yet, that I brought up in comment #63 that would go a long way in answering the questions posed:

    I find it difficult to find any hardcore statistics that break down the ethnic composition of the Far East? Most commentrary alludes to the fact that its majority is of Russian/Ukrainian mixture. But how much exactly?

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
  115. @Guillaume Tell

    I answer, “I do not know” to all four questions. I don’t even know what COP2X and GIEC are.

    The AGW hypothesis makes inherent sense to me, but I’m deeply suspicious of the entities behind it. They’re the same people who have a long track of being wrong about almost everything and have inflicted and continue to inflict tremendous harm on our societies.

    The fact that many of them are also atomophobes strongly suggests ulterior motives. Lately there has been a massive upsurge in vegan propaganda. They’re now claiming that GHG emissions from cattle (methane) are devastating, and we must go vegan to save the planet.

    In the United States, which is the world’s second largest GHG emitter and has the world’s fourth largest cattle herd (though it would be third by cattle mass), cattle GHG emissions are only 2% of all our GHG emissions. And that’s when you deliberately ignore how cattle contribute to returning carbon to the soil. It also ignores that methane in the atmosphere deteriorates in a decade (unlike with CO2, as I understand).

    So what is the real agenda exactly? Who is behind this, and what are their motivations?

    Lastly, Joyeux Noel and Bonne Annee!

    https://www.artcurial.com/sites/default/files/styles/840_width/public/lots-images/2017-09-30-21/3006_10560763_0.jpg?itok=O_W4jKZZ

    • Replies: @Guillaume Tell
  116. @Mr. Hack

    No, of course not. I’ve in mind those that just live on the other side of the border,

    The people on the other side of the Russia/China border are largely not ethnically Chinese. That border region is desert, mountains, steppe or taiga. The Chinese were farmers of river plains who did not populate the northern parts where they couldn’t grow rice or wheat. The north was inhabited by native nomadic peoples and their historical relation with the Chinese has been that either the Chinese subjugated them or they subjugated the Chinese.

    that have been trickling in for several centuries. Just how many?…..

    Essentially zero. Chinese have not been trickling into Siberia for centuries. This is a projection by Westernized people who’ve been brainwashed into thinking that migration is some inevitable law of nature and not an engineered policy. Illegal migrants flood Europe and America because significant factions in Western elites want that to happen. Russia hasn’t had elites that would have wanted mass migration of Chinese into Siberia so it hasn’t been allowed.

    Similarly, despite the wealth difference, there is essentially zero illegal Russian migration to Finland. Neither government wants that so it isn’t allowed to happen. China and Russia have good relations and neighboring governments with good relations can control migration very easily if they want to.

    Siberia is over 90 % Russian and the cities are even more Russian. Siberian cities are much more white than most European cities now. Native Siberian ethnic groups have no relation to the Chinese and no history of pro-Chinese sentiment. You have this bizarre idea that northern Asian ethnic groups would automatically side with China against Russia because they’re all “Asiatics”. Because Asiatics all favor each out of racial solidarity, right? Just look at any internet forum with Asian users and see the love between China, Japan and Korea.

    Most northern Asian ethnic groups are pro-Russian because they fear China and when China was weak they were pro-Russian because they feared Japan. The one independent Siberian ethnostate, Mongolia, is pro-Russian because they fear China. There are exceptions like Tuva where the locals engaged in some violence and rebellion against Russians after the fall of the USSR but even there the local nationalists are not pro-Chinese and China has no reason to support them.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  117. songbird says:
    @Guillaume Tell

    Pournelle used to have a pretty good comeback: the Vikings had farms in Greenland that are emerging from the ice.

  118. @Guillaume Tell

    The climate has been warmer before in historical times

    When? I know average temperatures were higher in Europe during the high middle ages, but my understanding is that such climate change was localized to specific regions during historical times, whereas the present change is global, and also more drastic than anything known from history.

    • Replies: @Philip Owen
  119. Mr. Hack says:
    @Jaakko Raipala

    You have this bizarre idea that northern Asian ethnic groups would automatically side with China against Russia because they’re all “Asiatics”. Because Asiatics all favor each out of racial solidarity, right?

    Wrong. It’s you actually who holds this bizarre belief about my views, that are totally unsubstantiated. I’m a dilettante when it comes to being a student of the history of the Russian Far East and Siberia. My total book count related to the subject matter is reading John J Stephan’s seminal book on the subject matter ‘The Russian Far East’. It’s one of the few English language books that I’ve encountered that provides a rather complete and in-depth look of the area. The author does indeed review the history of Asian immigration patterns into this area, and leaves one with the impression, after reading the book, that the Asian imprint is larger than most (at least as represented here) tend to believe. I’ve been open minded and haven’t been very overbearing with my opinions, as it’s an area I know little about.

  120. Dmitry says:
    @AnonFromTN

    AnonFromTN – it sounds like you meet the same people.

    I met people from Kazakhstan also with “German” nationality (allowing German passport).

    Lol I was wondering if maybe there is some factory in Kazakhstan that falsifies your certificates with German nationality so you can get a German passport, and whether I can contact this place.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    , @Philip Owen
  121. @Mr. Hack

    Asking a few questions is verboten at this blogsite, or what?

    So far your response to Melanf’s information has been to insist that:

    -No, if they are not there legally then they must be there illegally

    -Chinese and Koreans don’t send their children to school (really?)

    I find it difficult to find any hardcore statistics that break down the ethnic composition of the Far East? Most commentrary alludes to the fact that its majority is of Russian/Ukrainian mixture. But how much exactly?

    Karlin has posted a couple of times showing Russian ethnic identification in every Russian region.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  122. Beckow says:
    @German_reader

    …political decisions – which even today could, at least to some extent, be reversed.

    They could be reversed, but that wouldn’t necessarily fix the problem. I have struggled with how this could work and it is very messy – in a free society one cannot tell others who to marry, and all else with chain migration follows from that. A first step would be to admit that those political decisions (like in 2015) didn’t work and were wrong. That is no longer done in the West – nobody is ever held accountable for anything.

    The lack of accountability leads to Merkel doubling down and pushing the UN migration compact. It reminds of an exchange my dad had with a true commie believer in the 80’s:

    you lowered the price of bread and now peasants are buying it up to feed their chickens – it is wasteful‘ –

    great, we should abolish money altogether…

    How does one argue with an ideologue? The only remedy is to hold them accountable, you know the proverbial skin in the game.

  123. @Beckow

    You can absolutely tell others who to marry. 44 American states once had such laws.

    Denmark already has certain laws about spouse importation.

    And then there’s the fact that there’s no requirement to keep society free at all. Or free for all parts of it. Decades, centuries for some societies, of liberalism has rotted our brains into thinking that all people must have the same rights. That isn’t so.

    How does one argue with an “ideologue”? After everything that has happened, I’d suggest with lead.

    • Replies: @Beckow
  124. @Beckow

    in a free society one cannot tell others who to marry

    That’s not really a problem, intermarriage between the native population and really problematic immigrant groups is rather low anyway. You wouldn’t even need laws to discourage it, just run a campaign based on the real cases where a relationship with some vibrant foreigner had fatal consequences for a naive teenage girl.
    The practice of importing wives from the old country which is common among Muslims could also be blocked (iirc it was quite difficult in Britain before 1997, one of the first actions of the evil Labor party was to make it much easier) by hard language tests, deliberately obstructive bureaucracy etc.

    The lack of accountability leads to Merkel doubling down and pushing the UN migration compact.

    Unfortunately the vast majority of my countrymen failed to do their patriotic duty in the election of 2017, and I despise them for that. After what Merkel’s government had done, there was no excuse not to vote AfD.
    And given that AfD seems stuck at about 15%, the establishment feels emboldened to push ahead with their open borders agenda…which is a problem for all of Europe, since Merkel wants to make those policies binding for everyone (clearly the goal of that UN compact).

    • Replies: @byrresheim
    , @Beckow
    , @songbird
  125. Mr. Hack says:
    @Hyperborean

    -No, if they are not there legally then they must be there illegally

    I’ve suggested that this might be an actuality (I still hold this to be true). Do you really think or know that there aren’t any Asians living in these areas without proper documentation?

    -Chinese and Koreans don’t send their children to school (really?)

    Again, this was just a suggestion. Hard working Chinese or Koreans that live in or near the Primorye area may indeed choose to homeschool their children, or have developed their own schools. To think that there is no Chinese presence in the Primorye region (and others too) is pure nonsense. This Wikipedia article also presents some useful information about the Chinese presence in the Far East, also casting much doubt on the official figures used by Russian government officials. The bottom line seems to be that nobody really knows how many actual Asians (including the Far East’s Chinese and Korean nationals) actually live in Russia, including Karlin):

    Zhanna Zayonchkovskaya, the chief of the Population Migration Laboratory of the National Economic Forecasting Institute of Russian Academy of Sciences, estimated in 2004 the total number of Chinese present in Russia at any given point (as resident or visitors) at about 400,000 persons, much smaller than ill-educated guess of 2 million that had been given by Izvestiya.[1] If popular media estimates such as the 2003 figure of 3.26 million were correct, Chinese would form Russia’s fourth largest ethnic group after the Russians (104.1 million), Tatars (7.2 million), and Ukrainians (5.1 million).[27]

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_Chinese_in_Russia

  126. @Mr. Hack

    Hard working Chinese or Koreans that live in or near the Primorye area may indeed choose to homeschool their children

    Is homeschooling common in Russia? Is it even allowed?

    • Replies: @The Big Red Scary
  127. @Felix Keverich

    This is not who we are in Germany either.

    At least some of us.

    However, it seems as if nobody were asking us. Democracy, you know …

  128. @reiner Tor

    That may be so, but then sickos seem to be encouraged on fb these days.

  129. Beckow says:
    @Thorfinnsson

    …You can absolutely tell others who to marry

    I have tried, but usually they don’t marry me.

    liberalism has rotted our brains into thinking that all people must have the same rights.

    This is a critical fallacy that started around 18th century and has totally undermined normal thinking. We are heading towards a bizarre flat world with all being equal and nothing working. That f…ing Voltaire…

  130. @German_reader

    Allowed, becoming more popular, bur still much less common than in the US, where it is still practiced by a small minority.

    • Replies: @German_reader
  131. @Dmitry

    The girl I met (she works in collaborator’s lab, so I met her while visiting for a talk at their place) actually looks half Kazakh and half European. You can’t say whether the European half is German, Russian, British, Ukrainian, or whatever. It is certainly not French: she is tall.

    I wouldn’t be surprised if there were outfits in Kazakhstan producing fake proofs of German ancestry. At least in Ukraine there is a cottage industry producing fake proofs of Polish ancestry, charging from $2,000 to 10,000 per client (depending on their greed and client’s stupidity), just to get Karta Polyaka (Polish card), which is not even Polish citizenship, but a chance to acquire it.

    I know that at the height of Perestroika in late USSR there were rabbis who for $100 would write you a letter stating that you were born of Jewish mother personally known to him, which was back then required to get state freebies in Israel. I wonder whether Asians used their services, too, or if they didn’t, was it because of ridiculousness or they were just fastidious.
    If you are in Kazakhstan, ask around.

    • Replies: @Seraphim
    , @Dmitry
  132. @The Big Red Scary

    I checked on Wikipedia, according to them there are 50 000-100 000 (not terribly accurate numbers) homeschooled children in Russia.
    I suppose though that’s mostly due to some religious subcultures, not Asian immigrants.
    Surprised me that it’s allowed in Russia.

  133. Mitleser says:
    @Thorfinnsson

    Nordstream 2 was planned on the assumption that natural gas consumption in Europe would be 50% higher today than it is.

    While Russia is a low-cost producer ideally situated to supply Europe with natural gas, Europe doesn’t need more energy.

    But it does need more pipeline capacity. The point of NS is to ensure that gas exports via gas pipelines won’t be stopped by problems in Poland/Belarus/the Ukraine.

    But the Euros aren’t serious. Otherwise the Germans wouldn’t have shut down their nuclear power sector nor would their brown coal production figures be crushing post-reunification records.

    They are serious enough to sacrifice the German car industry for that, see reduction of CO2 emissions in the next decade.
    And what happened in this year in Hambach Forest shows that once nuclear power is gone, coal will be next.

    • Agree: German_reader
    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
  134. Beckow says:
    @German_reader

    …importing wives could also be blocked

    Slowed down yes, blocked, I wouldn’t be so sure. The family reunification racket is hard to beat – that’s all they care about, and the native people are seldom focused on it. My overall point is that once there is a critical mass – let’s say 5-10 million – it becomes very difficult to control. And 5-10 million are true for UK, France, Germany and proportionally also for Sweden and Benelux.

    In the last 18 months two key countries, Germany and France, in effect voted for open borders. To some extent Netherlands and Sweden also did. This after 2015. US voted for open borders Democrats in Congress. It is not only the elites that are ‘doubling down’…this is getting quantitatively different.

  135. songbird says:
    @German_reader

    One of the illusions of democracy is that it very reactive to short-term history. The great mass of voters vote out of habit. When change comes, it is generally slow, and not timely. If the politics of Europe ever change, it will be from the older generations dying off. But that is also a problem because the younger age cohorts are full of alien partisans.

    I do miss Talha here because in answer to this existential problem, he would always say something very amusing, like – to paraphrase a bit – organize a grassroots effort, going door to door in the newly Africanized areas of Europe, to convince the blacks to deport themselves back to their thirdworld hell-holes, where 1/3 of the people have HIV.

    • Replies: @German_reader
  136. songbird says:
    @German_reader

    To me, it is strange it is not allowed in Germany. As much as Germany has a pathology of guilt, in actuality, its government has a lot of practices that would frighten any traditional American. The state effectively has no real contrition. It thrusts its own guilt on its people to grow its power.

    • Replies: @German_reader
  137. @songbird

    I do miss Talha here because in answer to this existential problem

    I think he’s still around on other parts of Unz review, it’s just our little community here he’s tired of (can’t blame him for that).
    I agree with you that time is the crucial factor, especially since a hostile establishment is continually creating new facts that will be extremely hard, if not impossible, to reverse. But Talha wasn’t totally wrong that to some extent people shouldn’t complain about being swamped by foreigners if they’re so passive (even if he ignored the risks for political activism, like having one’s house vandalized or one’s car torched by Antifa, or social ostracism, possibly even job loss). I don’t do much myself (just voting for AfD, the occasional meager donation, signing a petition against that damned global compact), but even that minimum effort, which should be possible for anyone, is more than the vast majority manages. They either don’t care or they are even enthusiastic about the present state of affairs.
    People in Britain and the US at least have the excuse that the voting system makes change through new parties extremely difficult. But that doesn’t apply to the same extent in many continental European countries. So it’s hard not to feel that the majority gets what it deserves.

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
  138. @songbird

    To me, it is strange it is not allowed in Germany.

    Germany is authoritarian (more so under Merkel than it has been for a long time), and especially in West Germany too many still have a naive faith in the state (even though the state is increasingly the enemy in an anarchotyranny sense).
    It surprised me though that it’s allowed in Russia, especially since there even was some talk (or more?) of reintroducing basic military training in schools in recent years. I suppose it was allowed as a liberal reaction to the Soviet system immediately after the fall of communism and just never got repealed.

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
  139. @Mr. Hack

    Do you really think or know that there aren’t any Asians living in these areas without proper documentation?

    Well, maybe North Koreans do.

    Hard working Chinese or Koreans that live in or near the Primorye area may indeed choose to homeschool their children, or have developed their own schools.

    Homeschooling: Chinese work too long for that (both the mother and father). I often see their children who are too young for school with their grandparents without any parents in sight.

    If they have their own schools to any significant degree, why don’t you list them?

    The bottom line seems to be that nobody really knows how many actual Asians (including the Far East’s Chinese and Korean nationals) actually live in Russia, including Karlin)

    If you were talking about Moscow and SPB, it would make more sense, but there is little reason to think that the Far East is being inundated.

    The Russian Far East and Manchuria* are both economically depressed and depopulating. Any Chinese settling down will go to Beijing or, if they go to Russia, will go to Moscow or Saint Petersburg.

    Most Koreans who come to Russia are from Central Asia and are Stalin’s russified victims of deportations, not people from South Korea. They also do not settle in the Far East.

    *A bit irrelevant, but one can actually buy proper European-style bread and sausage in Harbin

    This Wikipedia article also presents some useful information

    Bearing in mind that the information in the article is dated and China is richer than a decade/a decade and a half ago.

    Temporary migration and shuttle trade conducted by Chinese merchants are most prevalent in Russia’s Far Eastern Federal District, but most go back and forth across the border without settling down in Russia; the Chinese community in Moscow has a higher proportion of long-term residents.

    The community in Moscow was believed to have been the largest as of 2002, numbering 20,000 to 25,000 people; Chinese community leaders give even higher estimates in the 30,000 to 40,000 range.

    In the Russian Far East, the major urban centres of Chinese settlement include Khabarovsk, Vladivostok, and Ussuriysk, though in 2002, the total combined Chinese population in those three cities is less than that in Moscow.[30] In Ussuriysk, a large proportion of the Chinese migrants working as traders are joseonjok (Chinese citizens of Korean descent); their total population there is estimated at perhaps two or three thousand people.[31]

    Between 1988 and 2003, 133,000 contract workers from Heilongjiang went to work in Russia; most were employed in construction and agriculture.

    So 15 years and only 133,000 Chinese guest workers. Meanwhile millions of Central Asians are in Russia.

    Aside from resident contract workers, 1.1 million Chinese also went to the border areas of the Russian Far East on tourist visas from 1997 to 2002.[25] Despite the perception that many remain illegally in Russia, since 1996, over 97% of Chinese arriving on tourist visas departed on time by the same border crossing through which they entered Russia, and many of the remaining 3% either departed by other border crossings, or were arrested and deported.[28][30]

    Russian newspapers began to publish speculation that between two and five million Chinese migrants actually resided in the Russian Far East, and predicted that half of the population of Russia would be Chinese by 2050.[?!]

    If Chinese really made up from a quarter to half of the Far East’s population since more than decade ago like these hyperbolic newspapers claim, why do not locals notice this pressure?

    The identitarian concern against the Chinese influx is described as less prevalent in the east, where most of the Chinese shuttle trade is actually occurring, than in European Russia.

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
  140. @German_reader

    They either don’t care or they are even enthusiastic about the present state of affairs.

    I believe that the situation is heading towards a place where the important decisions will once again be decided by blood and iron.

    I think Guillaume Faye is right when he says that as long as people can enjoy their bourgeois comforts they will remain passive and continue to believe in a wonderful humanitarian fantasy.

    When I talk to most of my family and relatives (who are mostly socialists and communists), there seems to be a kind of lock. They are free to condemn American, NATO or Israeli hypocrisy and deception, but when it comes to certain topics it is as if they refuse to connect the dots.

    They might at times admit that, yes, Muslim countries are shitholes, knife-wielding ‘young people’ are frightening, burkas are ailenating, that particular oligarch possesses Israeli dual citizenship, etc.

    But then, despite knowing it intellectually, they still criticise any kind of racism, ‘peasant-arse’ backwards East Europeans, Anti-Semitism or complaints about Turks or Arabs.

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
    , @Beckow
  141. @Hyperborean

    To be honest, I don’t think I should bother to argue this anymore.

    Clearly, just like with ‘Buryat soldiers’, this is one of your idées fixes, so it is probably just best to agree to disagree and leave it at that.

  142. @Hyperborean

    But then, despite knowing it intellectually, they still criticise any kind of racism, ‘peasant-arse’ backwards East Europeans, Anti-Semitism or complaints about Turks or Arabs.

    I think part of the reason is that they have this comforting belief in blank-slatism. Yes, most of the world’s population is shit, but we can reform them if we put them under the benevolent guidance of the EU!

    • Replies: @songbird
  143. Beckow says:
    @Hyperborean

    Most people are conformist because conformism works on an individual level. But it also makes societies dysfunctional in the long run.

    Connecting dots is scary, one can be called names, ostracised, loose livelihood or opportunities. There is also the societal element: most people in the large Western cities know personally lots of recent migrants and would not want to offend or be impolite. Sometimes a single Pakistani in a London office creates a complete taboo on any discussion. And women are more susceptible to feel-good ‘humanitarianism’, they tend to be numerically illiterate so explaining what is going on to many of them is a waste of time. They don’t get numbers or growth rates, it is all about being polite and nice.

    But I don’t justify it, the lack of strategic long-term thinking by most voters is very ‘uncitizen-like’ – they are giving away their land, their civilisation, their children’s future (if they have any, most don’t). There is no good scenario once the migrant numbers reach certain levels.

  144. neutral says:
    @melanf

    Look at the following, these are more well known people, how many of these do you consider Russian?

    All three consider themselves Russian, which tells me more than enough that Russia is simply adhering to cuckservatism lite, with the end result of such an ideology being predictable.

  145. @German_reader

    It surprised me though that it’s allowed in Russia, especially since there even was some talk (or more?) of reintroducing basic military training in schools in recent years.

    Do you mean Yunarmiya? Although I think officially it is on a voluntary basis.

  146. @German_reader

    I think that most home schooled kids must be Old believers.

    • Replies: @The Big Red Scary
  147. @neutral

    Shoygu is half ethnic Russian and an orthodox Christian so there’s no reason to not consider him Russian.

    • Replies: @neutral
    , @Hyperborean
  148. neutral says:
    @Swarthy Greek

    And thats my point right there, all of those I showed are non white, so Russia is basically a proposition nation. It also signed that UN migration pact, so with enough time all those sub Saharans that are swarming in Western Europe will move to Russia once Western Europe has been fully browned, and what exactly should stop these sub Saharans if they all are going to start saying that they want to move to Russia because they believe in “Russian values” (or other such cuckservative narratives).

  149. @Swarthy Greek

    Shoygu is half ethnic Russian and an orthodox Christian

    I thought he was a Buddhist?

    • Replies: @Swarthy Greek
    , @AnonFromTN
  150. @German_reader

    I suppose though that’s mostly due to some religious subcultures, not Asian immigrants.

    I have heard that some people in Russia educate their children at home to protect their kids from the excesses of Russian liberalism (tee-hee, quoth she), but I don’t know if that is representative. On the other hand, I personally know about thirty families on “semenoye” (it’s called “family” education in Russia), and while a few of them are religious (including my family), none of them seem to have religion as a motivation for family education. I know some Jews but haven’t yet met an Asian on family education. Mostly it seems to appeal to hippies and nerds, but maybe that says more about my circles than about the average family.

    There is an online popular journal on family education, and the editors organize a conference in Moscow once a year, which is fairly mainstream (insofar as homeschooling can be mainstream) and inclusive. The journal is here:

    https://semeynoe.com/

    In principle, you can even get the government to pay you for educating your own children, but nobody I know has tried to do that, preferring to fly under the radar.

    • Replies: @german_reader
  151. @Swarthy Greek

    See above. “Most” could be true, but I don’t personally know an example.

  152. melanf says:
    @AnonFromTN

    Pure Russians (although pure nationalities exist only in the minds of demented rabid nationalists) look very much like Northern Germans: blue eyes, blond hair, relatively small nose, widish face.

    There are (since the early middle ages) two different types of “pure” Russians: Northern Russians and Southern Russians. They have a common language and culture, but different origins. Here are anecdotal illustration of the differences of the two types (Arkhangelsk and Moscow):

    As you can see the Northern Russians are very similar in appearance to the Scandinavians (both the German-speaking and Finnish-speaking). Southern Russians are indistinguishable from Рoles and Slovaks. “Pure” Northern Russians live in the deserted North and their number is small, but it is they who conquered Siberia in the 16th-17th centuries, and therefore the Russian population of the Urals, Siberia and the Far East has noticeable “Northern” features.

    But in general, the population in Russia has vary diverse phenotypes

    As far as I know the genetic differences within the Russian ethnic group are more significant than in other indigenous ethnic groups in Europe.

  153. Seraphim says:
    @AnonFromTN

    In 1945-46 the ‘witness’ of two Jews was sufficient to ascertain that some Jews (mostly returning from beyond the Urals) were in the camps where they ‘knew him personally’ and getting the ‘freebies’ from UNRRA (United Nations Relief and Rehabilitation Administration).

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  154. melanf says:
    @German_reader

    I checked on Wikipedia, according to them there are 50 000-100 000 (not terribly accurate numbers) homeschooled children in Russia.
    I suppose though that’s mostly due to some religious subcultures, not Asian immigrants.
    Surprised me that it’s allowed in Russia.

    Some children just live in small settlements too far from school. In most other cases, parents believe that in the school children are taught bad/they don’t want their children to communicate at school with bullies.

  155. Anonymous[284] • Disclaimer says:
    @Beckow

    The *real* problem is that too many shit-for-brains white cunts support the third world trash and will even kill and be killed defending the trash.

  156. @The Big Red Scary

    I know very little about homeschooling in general, my impression was that it’s mainly something for people concerned about the degeneracy of modern culture (e.g. that their children might be exposed to pornography on the smartphones of classmates).
    Or possibly for hardcore religious people who don’t want their children taught about evolution etc.
    I admit though to being uninformed about the subject.

  157. @german_reader

    In my circles, I think most people are simply dissatisfied with excessive authoritarianism and rigidity in the state schools. Also, the pointless requirements of school can be burdensome not only to the child, but also to the parents. If you have a happy, intelligent child who is making good social and intellectual progress and feels miserable at school, why make them go?

    What we ourselves actually do is not traditional “homeschooling” but something in between “unschooling” and “democratic school”. We do it cooperatively with a group of other families, so the kids are together all day long and involved in various activities that they organize themselves, and there are always some parents hanging around, either working on something with the kids or working on their own interests. Everyone who participates has a vote in the school meeting on pretty much all aspects of the school. In short, we are apparently weirdos and probably not a representative sample, though still a fairly diverse one.

  158. @The Big Red Scary

    the pointless requirements of school

    Like what?
    Some sort of cooperative endeavour seems necessary, though personally I’d want more of a regular structure for my children (if I had any).

  159. DFH says:

    Having streamed state schools would eliminate most of the need for home/private schooling

    • Replies: @The Big Red Scary
  160. @The Big Red Scary

    In my circles, I think most people are simply dissatisfied with excessive authoritarianism and rigidity in the state schools.

    Could you elaborate?

    • Replies: @The Big Red Scary
  161. @German_reader

    Like what?

    First, let me say that while I have some ideas about what works for kids of above average intelligence, I don’t know what the proles need, but standard school doesn’t seem to work for them either. Given that caveat, the main problem is that the real purpose of state schools is to serve as a day prison for children whose parents are at work. And while the list of subjects in a typical school curriculum does usually consist of useful and interesting things (languages, mathematics, sciences, history, and so on), the way in which they are taught is almost always and everywhere ineffective, and a hundred years of research into pedagogy has not improved matters much.

    Just ask a random “intelligent” and “educated” adult to explain (not even precisely with formulas but intuitively) what Newton said about gravity or Ohm said about the relation between resistance, voltage, and current, and you’ll discover what good a mandatory physics course does for most people. Foreign languages are another example. Better for kids to watch cartoons on youtube than to take language lessons.

    Mostly I am concerned with the opportunity cost, though. An intelligent child can very quickly get through the standard curriculum, or will just absorb it by default, and then have more time for other activities (music, reading, climbing trees, science experiments in the garage). For me personally, I’m sure my children get more out of traveling with me for a month when I go to other countries for conferences and scientific collaborations than they would out of staying home and going to school. Admittedly this is an unusual case, but I’ve never pretended to be normal.

    personally I’d want more of a regular structure for my children

    Most people do, I think. The composition of our group changes from year to year, with a few core families persisting and others coming and going. Many people end up going to one of the local “alternative schools”, where more or less the standard curriculum is followed, but in a more friendly
    atmosphere than at the state schools.

  162. @Hyperborean

    Many of the teachers at the state schools are just plain nasty bitches.

    I don’t use such words often or lightly.

  163. @DFH

    Having streamed state schools

    We have many of them in Moscow. Perhaps not everyone who wants to go to one gets in, but I don’t think that will be a problem in our case when the children are older and if they decide that they want to go to one.

  164. @German_reader

    By the way, our school certainly has structure– the day has a beginning, middle, and end consisting of the school meeting, lunch, and a walk in the woods or to the lake; there is a long and growing list of rules; there is a “court” for dealing with broken rules; there are committees in charge of mainting equipment, stocking materials, and so on. But there are no lessons, and besides following the rules and cleaning up after yourself, nothing is required. So it is too free for most people to handle.

  165. Cutler says:
    @neutral

    You are incorrect, the three mentioned are Russian Citizens ( Rossiyane ) but they are not ethnic Russians ( Russki ) though Shoigu has a ethnic Russian mother. And as for Khabib he is white ( European, Of Avar ancestry. ) You can read a good book about the Caucasus by George Anchabadze called The Vainakhs. Its very good and for some less well read it will open your eyes.

  166. melanf says:
    @neutral

    Look at the following, these are more well known people, how many of these do you consider Russian?

    These people (half-Tuvan, Avar, and Kalmyk) in Russia are not considered ethnic Russians (and at least the last two definitely do not consider themselves ethnic Russian)

  167. AP says:
    @german_reader

    A friend who homeschools is a traditional (Anglican) Christian and also a scientist. He is obviously not anti-evolution but wants to avoid subjecting his kids to the degeneracy of mass modern culture.

    • Replies: @Mikhail
  168. Sean says:

    Russia could propel Europe faster toward hard-to-reach environmental goals. With its untapped economic potential and need for immigrants to develop its vast territory, it could be a big help in resolving migration issues.

    I would like to be there to see their faces when they find out they are going to be sent to Siberia

    • Replies: @Adam
  169. songbird says:
    @Hyperborean

    I think you’ve touched on one of blank-slatism’s hidden appeals: those who believe in one-world government accomplishing great things, by drawing on unprecedented resources, need to believe that the human capital is there. If it is not, then their hopeful vision is fundamentally impossible.

    It is not just about American blacks. It just began with American blacks.

  170. @Thorfinnsson

    Alberta’s area is 660,000 skm, population is 4 millions

  171. Sean says:
    @Anon

    The truth is, NATO truly is obsolete. Russia isn’t going to invade Europe and Germans are correct in dissing Trump’s retarded rants about muh military spending.

    The Germans have perfected a helpless kitten act, but will find that America is slowly but surely withdrawing from Europe to face China. If Germany persists they will draw Russia into aggressive moves westward, just as surely a Russia’s weakness drew Nato into Ukraine and Georgia.

    Stalin planned to ship Germans off to the Soviet Union and use them to teach Russians work discipline (ie having a drink after the work is done, as opposed to drinking instead of doing the work). Perhaps Germans are the missing ingredient for Putin.

    • Replies: @Mikhail
  172. Adam says:
    @melanf

    >As far as I know the genetic differences within the Russian ethnic group are more significant than in other indigenous ethnic groups in Europe.

    Germany has a comparable history, eastern Germans are largely assimilated Slavs and southern Germans have a central European phenotype. ‘Pure’ Germans live in the north-west of the country. There are also significant genetic differences between north and south in Italy, Spain, and France (even when discounting the moorish component, which is greatly exaggerated).

    • Replies: @melanf
  173. Adam says:
    @Sean

    I live in a region with a climate comparable to Siberia and third worlders from all corners of the earth are clamoring to come here. Other than being economically depressed, there’s no reason Siberia or anywhere in Russia could never be a target for enrichment.

  174. Anonymous[183] • Disclaimer says:
    @Adam

    The magic word is “Social Security”.

  175. Anonymous[183] • Disclaimer says:
    @Adam

    Ahh, but what do your local darkies do?

    Not lumberjacking or mining for sure.

    The hardest ‘work’ any of those worthless, useless cunts do is either to sit on their asses and drive taxis, or make and deliver pizzas for wankers too lazy to put their coats on and go out of the front door.

    Fucking parasites, the lot of them. If whitey hadn’t put in central heating, you wouldn’t see those bastards for dust.

    Count on it.

    • Replies: @Art Deco
  176. Dmitry says:
    @AnonFromTN

    Even if you never wanted to live in Germany, it is an extreme advantage for your life to attain a German passport.

    Just as a tourist, imagine how much money you will save in not buying visas, over a whole life?

    And of course, for young people – you could study for free in Stockholm University, or work next week in Paris (all without applying for any visa).

    Even tuition fee for somewhere like a British university (University of Cambridge), is more than twice cheaper if you have an EU country passport.

    So, currently, in University of Cambridge, it is £33,342 fee per year for MPhil for non-EU student in e.g. standard price course for them.

    But all you need is an EU passport, and the price is only £12,255.

    https://www.graduate.study.cam.ac.uk/courses/directory/egegmpmsl/finance
    How unfair is this system?

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  177. @neutral

    It’s very different in Russia. These are not recent runaways from shithole countries, they are culturally Russian, whatever their genetics. Russians have centuries-long history of living side-by-side with different nations and races in the same empire, so they are used to it and consider peaceful co-existence normal. There are tribalist nuts in Russia, but they are fringe. More civilized Russians know that Russian is not a nationality, it’s a state of mind. That’s what these people have. As a former military commander of Gorlovka Bezler said: “My mother is Ukrainian, my father German. So, who am I? A Russian!”

    • Replies: @DFH
  178. @Hyperborean

    Who knows? He is half-Tuva, and Tuva are Buddhists. Many Russians and others living in the RF don’t believe in any fairy tales, which does not prevent them from going to some church or another. As my grandma said, “there is no God, but I have no intention of angering Him”.

  179. Art Deco says:
    @Anonymous

    Less than 2% of the working population in the U.S. is to be found in the agricultural sector. About 4% works in the construction sector. Service sector and administrative employees – the people you’re calling ‘fucking parasites’ – make up more than 80% of the workforce in just about any occidental country.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  180. @Mitleser

    I see no evidence that the German car industry is being sacrificed, though obviously “dieselgate” should’ve been swept under the rug. Or perhaps the responsible executives should’ve been hailed as heroes.

    I understand there are also homo-sexuals in Germany who wish to eliminate the famed unlimited speed on the Autobahn, but that won’t kill the car industry.

    The German car industry is now gearing up to annihilate Tesla, but that’s a different story.

    Phasing out black coal mining in Germany has been planned for decades, and for the same reason as in Great Britain–it’s uneconomic.

    What shows that Germany isn’t serious about climate change is shutting down nuclear power, the best form of of clean power. This led to a sharp increase in coal consumption, and perversely brown coal consumption which is far dirtier. And Germany is set to keep mining coal until 2040.

    And in any case ending coal mining is irrelevant from a climate perspective if it is simply substituted with imported coal. Britain has been importing Australian coal ever since Thatcher crushed the miners (though a lot of the coal fleet has since been replaced by gas).

    • Replies: @Mitleser
    , @Philip Owen
  181. @melanf

    As far as I know the genetic differences within the Russian ethnic group are more significant than in other indigenous ethnic groups in Europe.

    That’s only natural. Huge groups of Ugro-Finnish peoples and Tatars (this is genetically very heterogeneous category of Turkish-speaking people; e.g., people called Tatars in the Volga region and in the Urals look strikingly different) were assimilated in the course of Russian history. Virtually any Russian curious enough to look into it can find some Tatar or Mordvin, Chuvash, etc. ancestors. Nuts with primeval tribalist mentality won’t acknowledge that, but they are mongrels, too. In fact, after Georgia and Ukraine demonstrated that rabid nationalism can ruin any country, small and large, the popularity of nationalists in Russia dropped precipitously.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  182. @Seraphim

    Quite possible. Fraud is as old as humanity, maybe even older. Every society has its fraudsters, but they are more successful in some social structures than in others.

    • Replies: @Seraphim
  183. Sean says:
    @Adam

    https://www.brookings.edu/articles/the-siberian-curse-does-russias-geography-doom-its-chances-for-market-reform/

    Only the Soviet Union—a totalitarian state with coercion at its core, with its highly centralized control of production and redistribution of resources, and with absolutely no sense of cost—could conquer Siberia. […] By the 1970s the Soviet Union had urbanized its coldest regions to an extent far beyond that of any other country in the world. At precisely the time when people in North America and western Europe were moving to warmer regions of their countries, the Soviets were moving in the opposite direction.

    https://www.mnn.com/earth-matters/wilderness-resources/blogs/russia-offers-free-land-bid-settle-remote-wilderness

    Families are also encouraged to apply –– a household of five will receive over 12 acres Critics … say it will only increase the amount of Chinese workers immigrating in masses across the border to work on newly-developed Russian farms.

    • Replies: @melanf
  184. Art Deco says:

    It can try to be a global military superpower, a status it achieved in the 20th century despite a weak economy thanks to its armaments and creative strength harnessed by fearsomely repressive regimes. It can accept the status of a regional power, increasingly turning into China’s junior ally and natural-resource base. Finally, it could establish itself as part of a greater Europe, following ideas first developed in the early 20th century by Halford Mackinder, one of the fathers of geopolitics.

    I don’t think he’s read Mackinder (who is not exactly current literature as far as human geographers are concerned). The three ‘choices’ he offers are contrived and fraudulent for ‘a that.

  185. @Adam

    Many “refugees” are actually looking for freebies. In Russia you don’t get any, you have to work. So, decent third-worlders might want to go to Siberia, but the lazy scum would flock to Germany, Sweden, and other suicidal countries where they get something for nothing.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    , @Anonymous
  186. melanf says:
    @Adam

    I live in a region with a climate comparable to Siberia and third worlders from all corners of the earth are clamoring to come here. Other than being economically depressed, there’s no reason Siberia or anywhere in Russia could never be a target for enrichment.

    On Sakhalin, the average monthly salary (after tax) at purchasing power parity is more than $ 3,000. In 2017, the population of Sakhalin increased by 51 people, but this was the first time in many years – before that, the population continuously decreased for many years (despite high wages).

    Where do you live, Alaska?

  187. @Dmitry

    That might be true for Kazakhstan citizens. With Russian citizenship you don’t need visas to ~50-60 countries, with the US citizenship you go visa-free to ~100 countries. You still need special permits to work (to be paid, that is) in all of them with either passport, though.

    BTW, PhD programs in the UK are not worth even reduced price, unless the degree certificate is the only thing you want. You get a degree there in three years regardless of your actual performance (only being dead or in jail can prevent that). In decent American Universities grad students get a permission to defend only after they have at least one first-author paper accepted. My grad students usually get more.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    , @for-the-record
  188. DFH says:
    @AnonFromTN

    Based Civic Imperialism!

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  189. melanf says:
    @Sean

    Only the Soviet Union—a totalitarian state with coercion at its core, with its highly centralized control of production and redistribution of resources, and with absolutely no sense of cost—could conquer Siberia.

    This is the most idiotic statement I’ve ever seen on this forum.

    • Replies: @Sean
  190. @german_reader

    Home schoolers are often (probably even usually) religious people concerned about degeneracy, but they have further concerns.

    Some of them live in “diverse” areas but are of modest means and thus cannot afford to send their children to private schools.

    Others have gifted children and don’t live in an area where public schools offer gifted education.

    There are also those who simply get into feuds with the local public school administration for various reasons. I am friends with a lawyer who was home schooled for one year because her late mother got into some kind of feud with the school board 20 years ago.

    There is genuine concern about pedagogy as well. The “Saxon Math” curriculum, which they allege is superior, is very popular. They often use old-fashioned, but superior, instructional books for orthography.

    Most home schoolers cooperate with other home schoolers, and they make sure their children participate in other activities (church groups, boy scouts, sports leagues, etc.) so they are properly socialized.

    • Agree: Mr. Hack
  191. melanf says:
    @Adam

    Germany has a comparable history, eastern Germans are largely assimilated Slavs and southern Germans have a central European phenotype. ‘Pure’ Germans live in the north-west of the country.

    In Cologne it seemed to me a significant part of the local population – the descendants of the Roman colonists (they had a completely Italian faces).

    • Replies: @Adam
  192. @DFH

    Not exactly. Imperialism is based (openly or covertly, i.e., hypocritically) on the division of humans into ubermensch and untermensch. So, it is a typical European (and American) approach, when nobody worries about murdered aborigines, as aborigines are considered untermensch. The aggression against Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, and Syria clearly showed this.

    Russian approach since the imperial times was different: inclusion. Noble families of various nations (Georgians, Armenians, Ukrainians, all Asians, etc.) were included by tsars into Russian nobility with all privileges this entailed. In Soviet times the privileges of nobility were cancelled (like in the US), but ordinary people were treated the same, regardless of nationality or race. Same with culture. Say, Chingiz Aitmatov’s novels are a part of Russian literature (although he was theoretically a Kyrgyz writer and wrote them in Kyrgyz in parallel), same as Fazil Iskander’s (an Abkhazian) novels. Of course, it reflects virtual absence of Kyrgyz and Abkhazian high culture, but also the inclusiveness of Russian culture. Both enriched it, if you ask me. The oldest example is Pushkin: in a way, he was the founder of modern Russian literature, and nobody minds his Ethiopian origins (his great-grandfather was an Ethiopian brought to Russia by Peter the Great).

    • Replies: @DFH
  193. Mitleser says:
    @Thorfinnsson

    I see no evidence that the German car industry is being sacrificed, though obviously “dieselgate” should’ve been swept under the rug. Or perhaps the responsible executives should’ve been hailed as heroes.

    First they came for the diesel which produces less carbon emissions than gasoline engine.
    Than they came for the gasoline engine.

    Head of VW, the biggest German car maker said that they can handle that thanks to their E-platform and the Chinese market, but the former means job losses even if they are successful and the latter suffers from overcapacity.
    https://www.tichyseinblick.de/wirtschaft/mobilitaet/die-quittung-fuer-den-dieselwahnsinn/

    This led to a sharp increase in coal consumption, and perversely brown coal consumption which is far dirtier.

    Brown coal production and consumption in Germany has been declining since 2012/2013.

    And Germany is set to keep mining coal until 2040.

    Hambach Forest was supposed to be cleared for the sake of brown coal mining, but that did not work out despite support from the two biggest parties. Do not understimate the ability of Greens and friends to derail coal mining.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  194. Adam says:
    @melanf

    Even in France the number of actual Roman colonists was quite small. I imagine in Germany their genetic impact is basically zero. Germany has had plenty of internal migration, and I imagine some of the people you’re seeing are descendants of southern Germans, or perhaps of actual Italian guest workers.

    Also, I’ve seen native Scandinavians with a Mediterranean appearance. Sometimes people differ from the predominant phenotype of their region.

  195. Dmitry says:
    @Mitleser

    Reduction of coal use, is very positive news.

    All modern countries are trying to reduce their consumption of coal, in order to avoid the ecological disasters of China and Poland.

    And of course, one of the main improvements in China will occur as they are able to convert more of their electricity production to gas.

    First they came for the diesel which produces less carbon emissions than gasoline engine.

    Carbon emissions are not really relevant for any normal citizens.

    The problem for normal citizens is the toxic component of exhaust emissions, and the impact on public health.

    • Replies: @Mitleser
  196. Beckow says:
    @melanf

    …Southern Russians are indistinguishable from Рoles and Slovaks.

    In general yes, but at least in Slovakia we have quite a few looking like the northern type, we call them ‘cmarove’ (sour milk, because they don’t tan). Some of our best athletes come from that group.

    Central Europe has a lot of genetic variety and yet people can generally spot one’s ethnic origin quickly by the look and manners: Germans look slightly constipated, Czechs look unserious, Magyars arrogant, Poles shifty, Russians take up too much space, Ukrainians like they just woke up after getting drunk…no disrespect and those are exaggerations, but stereotypes exist for a reason…

    • Replies: @Mikhail
  197. Dmitry says:
    @AnonFromTN

    With Russian

    Maybe for people travelling as a tourist in South America, Africa and some parts of Asia/Near East.

    For being in Europe and/or North America,one of the worst. The only compensation is that the Schengen visa is somewhat good value and convenient.

    programs in the UK are not worth even reduced price, unless the degree certificate

    Sitting in the cafes and libraries of an ancient university for a year, memorizing a few textbooks, and improving your resume at the same moment – it would not bad at all.

    As you can see, the price difference by nationality for this is just ridiculous and illustration of what can be the value of certain passports.

  198. Anonymous[190] • Disclaimer says:
    @Art Deco

    The fucking parasites I’m talking about are worthless useless cunt Paki pizza delivery boys, taxi drivers, curry waiters and the rest of that turd crew.

    • Replies: @Art Deco
  199. Anonymous[190] • Disclaimer says:
    @AnonFromTN

    Stating the bleeding obvious.

    *ALL* of those dirty bastards infiltrating Europe only come to suck from the taxpayers’ teat.

    No other reason.

  200. Anonymous[190] • Disclaimer says:
    @AnonFromTN

    A little home truth.

    ‘Decent’ thirdworlders ie ‘decent’ darkies, like unicorn shit, don’t actually exist.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  201. Sean says:
    @melanf

    https://siberiantimes.com/other/others/features/unique-19th-century-english-steam-engine-found-in-the-depths-of-siberian-taiga/

    Of course there were people out in Siberia before the Soviet Union existed, but really the reason for people to be in Siberia is for resource extraction, there does not need to be cities. Canada does not have all these isolated cities where the temperature is never above minus 15 in the winter, because in Canada the settlement was more organic and spontaneous, they went where the living was best. In Peter Turchin’s interesting book War and Peace and War he seems to portray the expansion of land hungry Russian peasants into lands to the south, often against the will of the Russian authorities, very differently to the Russian expansion into Siberia, which was more of a military expedition.

    The populating of Siberia to the extent it now is populated was excessive and a misallocation of human resources away from infrastructure that could connect them to markets is what I read the Brookings piece as saying. There was a RT documentary about an American academic living and working in provincial Russia (not Siberia) while she researched Soviet officialdom in the archives. Asked about her impressions this woman said that Russia is a very under-administered country, that needs more and better organisation. She noted there are villages that looked as if they belong in the 19th century, lacking proper sanitation ect. There can be strategic reason for getting people into Siberia admittedly but Russia’s economy is also strategically important.

    • Replies: @melanf
  202. Mitleser says:
    @Dmitry

    Reduction of coal use, is very positive news.

    If you have non-volatile replacements.
    Otherwise, it can be quite problematic.

    Carbon emissions are not really relevant for any normal citizens.

    They are once limiting them becomes a national policy.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  203. @AnonFromTN

    PhD programs in the UK are not worth even reduced price, unless the degree certificate is the only thing you want. You get a degree there in three years regardless of your actual performance

    Maybe in liberal arts, but not in sciences. My son got his Ph.D. in a (very) “hard” science at a Scottish University, and it certainly wasn’t gifted to him. He got it in 4 years, which was the minimum period possible and yes, by that time, he had already co-authored a published paper.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  204. @Anonymous

    There are lots of decent East Asians, with strong work ethic, respect for education, and without any murderous religious beliefs. They tend to work their asses off to send their children to the best colleges. That’s why they integrate in the US and Europe easily and virtually never cause resentment of the locals (unlike some others we all know). Even in the US South (as bloody-mindedly conservative as you can be w/o becoming a chimp) Vietnamese wives of the US servicemen were accepted w/o a murmur.

    What’s more, in Rome I saw Arabs keeping their little stores open and selling good stuff after lazy locals closed. In my book, they honestly earn their profits. Yes, in the same Rome (and in many other European cities) you see annoying dark hawkers of various trash in the streets, who by rights should be shot on sight. But I saw the same kind of annoying Chinese hawkers in Beijing on Tiananmen Square (with their “looka, looka, very cheapa” cry). Thank goodness, they disappeared whenever Chinese police was in sight.

    So, in my experience, there are decent people and trash everywhere. Don’t forget that when it comes to migration, there is self-selection process. In some places decent people stay where they are, whereas trash moves in search of free handouts to Europe. The really bad thing is that they are getting those free handouts in some countries. But the governments that encourage trash were elected by lily-white locals, so they are equally guilty.

  205. @for-the-record

    Maybe Scottish system is better than English. In Oxford and Cambridge totally unqualified people with dismal productivity get PhDs in hard sciences in three years. Unlike German system, which requires a two-year Masters program before you enter a PhD program, Oxford and Cambridge do not have this requirement. Anyway, I never go by the degrees of applicants, but look at their publication record. Even that is not fool-proof: sub-par people in good productive labs get more publications than they deserve.

  206. Art Deco says:
    @Anonymous

    If they actually were ‘parasites’, no one would be paying them to make deliveries, drive taxis or wait tables (occupations which account for 2.5% of the workforce in the U.S.)

  207. Dmitry says:
    @Mitleser

    Converting coal electricity station to gas electricity stations, is usually not incredibly expensive, and they have completed this work in less than a year in some scenarios.

    Supplying the gas to the stations, can be the less simple and more expensive part, depending on the country.

    But government should be forced to view transition to gas as a high priority. Improving air quality should be a very high priority of any government that is responsive to its citizens.

    Cleaner air has a significant effect on improving quality of life of ordinary citizens, even for those who (as a majority) are lucky not to develop any serious health problems from the air pollution.

  208. DFH says:
    @AnonFromTN

    Russia has always been multicultural and enriched by its vibrant diversity

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    , @melanf
  209. @DFH

    Yes. The key thing is that this diversity is natural, it was tested by centuries of coexistence, in contrast to globalists’ lie of “multi-culti” that is forced, contrived, and involves bringing millions of culturally incompatible people into established social structures.

    Not only Russians learned to live peacefully next to the people of different cultures and races, but these people also learned to live in peace with Russians. It helps that Russia (the Empire, the USSR, and the RF today) did not bring “democracy” on the heads of others in 500 kg TNT installments.

    • Replies: @Seraphim
  210. melanf says:
    @Sean

    Of course there were people out in Siberia before the Soviet Union existed, but really the reason for people to be in Siberia is for resource extraction, there does not need to be cities.

    It’s nonsense.

    The median monthly salary in Russia (blue – more than 2000 dollars in purchasing power parity, green-more than a 1000 dollars). Where do people make better money?
    Changes in Russia’s population
    Well your see

    expansion of land hungry Russian peasants into lands to the south, often against the will of the Russian authorities, very differently to the Russian expansion into Siberia, which was more of a military expedition.

    Siberia was conquered by pirates during private military expeditions. Later there was a resettlement to Siberia of peasants (including Germans, Poles, Latvians, etc.). The southern lands of Russia were conquered by the state during the bloody wars, in the South “state” colonization played a much greater role than in Siberia.

    • Replies: @Seraphim
  211. melanf says:
    @DFH

    Russia has always been multicultural and enriched by its vibrant diversity

    As well as Switzerland (or, for example, China). But this is not the” diversity ” of the modern type.

    • Replies: @German_reader
  212. Mikhail says: • Website
    @Beckow

    In general yes, but at least in Slovakia we have quite a few looking like the northern type, we call them ‘cmarove’ (sour milk, because they don’t tan). Some of our best athletes come from that group.

    For sure. Have come across a good share of them.

  213. @melanf

    I think the point was rather that accepting a self-definition of the sort “We’re all mongrels, everybody can belong with the right values” could easily lead to being manipulated into acceptance of the “modern”, destructive kind of “diversity”.
    Full-scale ethnonationalism (let alone the racial obsessions of neutral) would obviously be dangerous for Russia. But at some point boundaries need to be drawn.

    @Big red scary, Thorfinnsson, AP: thanks for your informative replies about home schooling!

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  214. Mikhail says: • Website
    @Sean

    Stalin planned to ship Germans off to the Soviet Union and use them to teach Russians work discipline (ie having a drink after the work is done, as opposed to drinking instead of doing the work). Perhaps Germans are the missing ingredient for Putin.

    Putin is known to be a Germanphile. On plans with a WW II connect, a US aired documentary highlights that some of the Nazis recognized that their living space plans for the east would be problematical on account of not having enough Germans. Hence, it was argued to recruit healthy, light skinned, blond haired, blue eye looking non-Germans in the east.

  215. Mikhail says: • Website
    @AP

    A friend who homeschools is a traditional (Anglican) Christian and also a scientist. He is obviously not anti-evolution but wants to avoid subjecting his kids to the degeneracy of mass modern culture.

    That can work in a shielded surrounding. I’ve a religious Christian friend, who brought his kid up in a religious private school. At some point, when junior got into double digits, he was put into a quality public school system. The idea was to have him brought up with a mesh of discipline and respect, combined with knowing how to best deal with likely life encounters.

  216. @Adam

    My region is slightly warmer than Siberia, but they are flooding in here too. The somalians just stay inside all winter.

    You would think the city is 95% white when you go out during the winter, or do any kind of outdoor activity.

  217. Seraphim says:
    @melanf

    Russian expansion in Siberia follows shortly after the conquest of Kazan by the first Tsar, Ivan IV. It was a state policy implemented by all subsequent Tsars.

    • Replies: @melanf
  218. @German_reader

    But at some point boundaries need to be drawn.

    The boundaries are natural: cultural compatibility. Whoever isn’t compatible should go back to whateverthefuckinstan s/he came from. These should have been the boundaries in Europe, too, but European elites decided to kill Europe as we know it.

    • Replies: @German_reader
  219. Seraphim says:
    @AnonFromTN

    Orthodoxy played a central role in the Russian ‘Weltanschauung’. ‘Love thy neighbor’ was taken seriously and that induced a basic respect for human dignity.
    A little correction. Recent research showed that Pushkin’s great-grandfather, Abram Petrovic Gannibal, was not Ethiopian, but from Central Africa (Cameroon). Prisoner to Constantinople, he was ransomed by Sava Vladislavich-Raguzinsky, the Ambassador of Peter the Great to Constantinople, brought to Russia, baptized by the Tsar who took him into his household. He married into Russian nobility (ironically into a branch of Scandinavian and German origin). His son’s Osip daughter was to marry Sergei Lvovich Pushkin and have Alexander.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  220. Seraphim says:
    @AnonFromTN

    More than possible. It explains how the 2 million evacuated beyond the Urals at the beginning of the War have been counted to make the sacred six.

  221. @AnonFromTN

    Are Chechens culturally compatible with mainstream Russian society though?
    I get what you’re trying to say, and there’s certainly a lot of truth in it, but once you’ve found out a group isn’t “culturally compatible” and causing problems, it’s often not that easily possible anymore to tell them to leave.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    , @Dmitry
  222. @German_reader

    In fact, Chechens (most of whom live in RF outside of Chechnya) in many regions learn to be compatible the hard way: there were several instances of mass brawls of locals with Chechens who stepped out of boundaries. In one instance a Chechen was killed, and his family actually apologized to the locals, acknowledging that he did not behave properly. If something like 2015/16 Cologne mass assault on local women by migrants happened in Russia, first local men would have given those migrants a serious beating, and then the police would arrive and beat them some more. In the US it would be exactly the same, just replace beating with shooting. Both Russians and Americans were shocked by the impotence of Germans, civilians and the police. There was even a joke in Russia that Putin is the last real German man.

    • Replies: @German_reader
  223. @Seraphim

    Whatever Pushkin’s origins, they were certainly not Russian. That does not prevent him from being the greatest Russian poet of all times.

    I don’t think Orthodoxy played a decisive role. Like all religions, Orthodoxy is 10% sincere goodness and 90% hypocrisy. I think it’s just the fact that Russians lived side-by-side with various non-Russians for centuries, so both sides learned to behave themselves simply to survive (tribally-minded jerks on both sides were killed and left no progeny). The main problem with Europe is that Europeans never lived next to phenotypically and culturally different neighbors. This fed both prevailing Nazi-like attitude (aborigines are inhuman savages) and rank ineptitude in dealing with different people when the need arises.

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
    , @Seraphim
    , @melanf
  224. @AnonFromTN

    In the US it would be exactly the same, just replace beating with shooting.

    My understanding is that white Americans basically let themselves be ethnically cleansed out of many cities by black criminals, so I doubt that.
    I don’t know about Russia. But the problem in Germany (and other European countries) is not just the wimpiness of the native men (though that certainly exists), but that the state is de facto taking the side of the invaders.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    , @songbird
    , @AP
  225. Dmitry says:
    @German_reader

    Obviously this is much more a cultural problem with these people.

    Currently scary problem with Chechens for the future, is this promotion of Islam (whether non-political or not) by Kadyrov. So they could become increasingly more in the future a nationality of Talhas, rather than of Anatoly Karlins.

    Islamicizing itself is not exactly sustainable though – eventually they or their descendants will always have to (as all people will eventually) return to the natural process of secularizing and civilizing themselves, becoming normal human beings.

  226. @German_reader

    Yes, when blacks move en masse into an area, the whites move out. But that hurts blacks more than whites, especially long-term: just look at Detroit after black riots that happened more than 60 years ago. There were rare instances when blacks were pushed out by whites (e.g., parts of North Philadelphia), but those whites were Russians and Poles, who mostly don’t buy the PC BS.

    I understand that the position of the governments in Europe actually makes problems created by migrants much worse. But, if memory serves, Europeans like to boast about their vaunted democracy (which, according to them, is lacking in Russia and China). This means that you guys elected those governments and presumably can elect better ones. What possessed Germans to vote for Merkel’s party and Social-Democratic cucks instead of a perfectly sane AfD? What possessed French to elect Rothschild banker instead of Le Pen? I can continue in this vein, but what’s the point? Or is that democracy talk all BS and no substance?

    • Replies: @Beckow
    , @Hyperborean
  227. @Dmitry

    Islamicizing itself is not exactly sustainable though

    It’s been sustainable for 1400 years, which is a lot longer than secularism (which is not “normal” at all).
    You shouldn’t always think that your own mindset (being an individual, having nice things and traveling around the world as ultimate life goals) is what everybody else would want naturally. Most people crave community and some narrative providing meaning and transcendence to their lives, and Islam is good at that.

  228. @AnonFromTN

    I think it’s just the fact that Russians lived side-by-side with various non-Russians for centuries, so both sides learned to behave themselves simply to survive (tribally-minded jerks on both sides were killed and left no progeny).

    This is a very idealistic view.

    The main problem with Europe is that Europeans never lived next to phenotypically and culturally different neighbors. This fed both prevailing Nazi-like attitude (aborigines are inhuman savages) and rank ineptitude in dealing with different people when the need arises.

    The Spanish, Portuguese and French acted no ‘worse’ than Russians when they encountered the Amerindian primitives.

    Amusingly, Lusotropicalism is like a mirror of your ideas about Russia:

    It was theorized that because of Portugal’s warmer climate, and having been inhabited by Celts, Romans, Visigoths, Moors and several other peoples in pre-modern times, the Portuguese were more humane, friendly, and adaptable to other climates and cultures.

    In addition, by the early 20th century, Portugal was by far the European colonial power with the oldest territorial presence overseas; in some cases its territories had been continuously settled and ruled by the Portuguese throughout five centuries. Lusotropicalism celebrated both actual and mythological elements of racial democracy and civilizing mission in the Portuguese Empire, encompassing a pro-miscegenation attitude toward the colonies/overseas territories. The ideology is best exemplified in the work of Freyre.[2]

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lusotropicalism

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  229. Dmitry says:
    @AnonFromTN

    Tatars (this is genetically very heterogeneous category

    Yes some look all the way like Kazakhs

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    , @melanf
  230. Beckow says:
    @AnonFromTN

    …What possessed Germans to vote for Merkel’s party and Social-Democratic cucks instead of a perfectly sane AfD?

    The really crazy one voted for the Greens who seem to be in an uber-globalist orbit of their own. They gained votes.

    I have observed that many in the West avoid being disagreeable – and not just women. A combination of politeness, conformism and fear. That makes it easy to manipulate them by endlessly portraying any criticism as racist or xenophobic and associate it with ‘Hitler’. Germans are especially vulnerable and not just because of WWII. But the French voting for Macron cannot be explained in any sane universe – it was the ultimate wtf moment of latter-day globalism.

    I don’t know how this is going to play out over the next few decades, I suspect it will get quite ugly. But I know that in 10-20 years it will be hard to find anyone admitting that they were part of the ‘welcome culture‘, or that they voted for Macron, cognitive dissonance to the nth degree.

  231. @AnonFromTN

    But, if memory serves, Europeans like to boast about their vaunted democracy (which, according to them, is lacking in Russia and China). This means that you guys elected those governments and presumably can elect better ones. What possessed Germans to vote for Merkel’s party and Social-Democratic cucks instead of a perfectly sane AfD? What possessed French to elect Rothschild banker instead of Le Pen? I can continue in this vein, but what’s the point? Or is that democracy talk all BS and no substance?

    Parliamentarism is a fraud, which people are slowly realising.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/12/08/yes-millennials-really-are-surprisingly-approving-of-dictators/

    While there are many traitors and weaklings in Europe, if one believed in ‘democracy’ one might just as well ask why Russians put up with Yeltsin for long during the 1990s.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  232. songbird says:
    @German_reader

    What happened in America wasn’t purely organic either, but involved the state assuming powers not granted to it, often first through the courts. (It was quite similar to what happened with gays) Though one could make the argument that everything was a delayed consequence of the Civil War, which involved physical armies. Not to mention JFK actually using federal troops to desegregate the University of Alabama.

    What happened in Europe can only be explained by European politicians being ignorant about what really happened in America, which is explained by it being a forbidden topic.

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
  233. @Dmitry

    Historically all tribes that joined Mongols in their war against Russian principalities in the 13th century were called Tatars. They are racially, ethnically, and phenotypically very different. Some were Asians (like the pretty girl in your pic), some Volga area Tatars in Kazan and Astrakhan are Caucasians and look like Greeks with larger and more hooked noses, some, particularly Urals Tatars, look like a mix of Asians with Eastern Slavs. Crimean Tatars are actually Turks. They are united by the language: all speak Turkish-like languages and most can understand Turkish (at least that’s what one of my Tatar friends told me).

    • Replies: @Hippopotamusdrome
  234. @Hyperborean

    This is a very idealistic view.

    This is not an idealistic view. In fact, it’s the exact opposite, pure Darwinism: the survival of the fittest.

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
  235. @Hyperborean

    A lot of Russians were duped by sweet Western talk (that turned out to be 100% deception). But the first revolt against traitorous Yeltsin occurred as early as 1993 in Moscow. The regime put it down by mass murder and tanks shooting at the parliament building. The “democracy-loving” West applauded the drunkard and his heinous crimes. Talk of hypocrisy…

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
  236. @AnonFromTN

    This is not an idealistic view. In fact, it’s the exact opposite, pure Darwinism: the survival of the fittest.

    Russian expansion in North Asia was quite frequently violent (and of course the North Asians were quite violent as well).

    And even as late as the collapse of the Soviet Union there were separatist attempts from Tatarstan (1992) and ethnic cleansing of Russians from Tuva.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  237. @AnonFromTN

    I thought it was because they ate a lot of fish sticks.

  238. @AnonFromTN

    But the first revolt against traitorous Yeltsin occurred as early as 1993 in Moscow. The regime put it down by mass murder and tanks shooting at the parliament building. The “democracy-loving” West applauded the drunkard and his heinous crimes. Talk of hypocrisy…

    But even twenty years later, the country is still torn between extreme positive and extreme negative assessments of the events of 1993. According to VTSIOM, a polling institution, 51 percent of Russians supported the use of military force to regain control over Moscow, whereas only 30 percent were against it. Today [2013], however, Russians have a different opinion on the issue as only 17 percent of citizens approve of the president’s actions and as many as 69 percent – have a negative opinion.

    https://russia-direct.org/analysis/failed-russian-coup-20-years-later

    And in 2018:

    New sociological research shows that a narrow majority of Russians today (53 percent) say they think nobody was right in the August 1991 coup d’état attempt by members of the Soviet government to take control of the country from Soviet President and General Secretary Mikhail Gorbachev. According to a new poll by the Levada Center, 13 percent of respondents sided with the State Committee on the State of Emergency (GKChP), 10 percent supported Boris Yeltsin and company, and 25 percent found the question too difficult to answer.

    The defeat of the coup has a similarly troubled legacy: just 6 percent of respondents said it was a victory for democratic revolution over the Communist Party. Thirty-eight percent said it was a tragedy with disastrous consequences for the country and the Soviet people, while 36 percent said the event was simply a struggle for power by the USSR’s ruling class.

    Beckow is probably right when he says that few decades from now on very few Europeans will publicly admit having supported the traitors currently in power.

    Of course, EU democracy is a fraud, as shown when the ‘far-right’ Austrian Freedom Party entered a coalition government in 2000 after the 1999 parliamentary elections, the European Union swiftly enacted sanctions to ensure that ‘democracy’ in Austria was not threatened.

  239. @Hyperborean

    There were attempts by tribal-minded people (non-Russians) to establish tribal autonomy/independence. The attempt in Tatarstan fizzled out because of lack of popular support. Besides, more Tatars in Russia live outside of Tatarstan than inside it.

    Tuva is a different proposition. It was an independent country from 1921 to 1944 and should have remained so, if you ask me. It is the least developed federal territory in Russia, in a word – a shithole. However, Russian defense minister Shoigu is half-Tuvan, so Tuva gave the world at least something useful. He is regarded in Tuva as a national hero.

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
  240. @AnonFromTN

    The attempt in Tatarstan fizzled out because of lack of popular support.

    In 1989 census Tatars were 48.5% of Tatarstan’s population. The 1992 referendum affirming that Tatarstan is a ‘sovereign state’ got 62% Yes with 82% turnout.

    And Tatarstan, surrounded by Russia on all sides, did get a wide range of autonomy under an agreement which only expired a year and a half ago.*

    Tatarstan officials demanded a separate agreement that would preserve their regional sovereignty. Two years later, it finalized a deal with Moscow that gave the ethnically diverse republic its own laws, tax rules and citizenship privileges. Tatarstan kept control over its resources and budget, and could even participate in international affairs.

    https://themoscowtimes.com/articles/tatarstan-special-status-expires-58483

    Although a lot of separatist attempts in Russia outside the Caucasus are probably more unrealistic nowadays with a stronger central power and an increase in ethnic intermarriage.

    *Part of this is Yeltsin’s fault, telling the Tatars to ‘take all the sovereignty they can swallow’ and then begging them not to secede.

  241. AP says:
    @German_reader

    My understanding is that white Americans basically let themselves be ethnically cleansed out of many cities by black criminals, so I doubt that.

    It’s not so simple – there was a carrot and a stick. They were not driven out as refugees but moved to places with a lot more land, garages, etc. at a time when this was widely seen as an ideal, leaving the older no longer as desirable places for the newcomers. If you talk to the older generations who left the city, it wasn’t just fear but a sense of leaving the dirty city and cramped space behind and getting a much larger house with a swimming pool and two car garage.

    This sucked only for the small number who did not want to move and who saw their old neighborhoods collapse around them.

    Note that urban areas in which the locals did not want to leave en masse such as certain Italian areas, or Ukrainian Village in Chicago, remained as they were. And undesirables were kept out of the desired suburbs. Now that cities are becoming fashionable, you see them getting cleansed.

    Second, in many cases the ones moving out were replaced not by minorities but by poor whites. In Detroit the first wave was white trash from the South who replaced the original white inhabitants.

  242. Seraphim says:
    @AnonFromTN

    It was not Dostoevsky’s opinion. Neither Solzhenitsyn’s. Or, perhaps worse, Putin’s: “It Is Impossible to Imagine Russia Without Christianity”. They believed in a Christian mission of Russia. BTW, it was Pushkin’s opinion too: “The great spiritual and political revolution of our planet is Christianity. Within this sacred element the world disappeared and was renewed”, “We are obliged to the monks for our history, and consequently our enlightenment”, “The Greek confession, separate from all others, gives us a special national character”.
    But they were not ‘Darwinians’, and ‘anti-semitic’ on top of that. No wonder that the same people hate them all, the people who made every effort to uproot Orthodoxy from Russian land, unsuccessfully. “I feel nothing but almost physical hatred for the man”, “[I would like] tear Dostoevsky to pieces” for “his idea of Russians as special, holy people, his cult of suffering and the false choices he presents.” -Anatoly Chubais.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    , @AnonFromTN
  243. @Dmitry

    Islamicizing itself is not exactly sustainable though – eventually they or their descendants will always have to (as all people will eventually) return to the natural process of secularizing and civilizing themselves, becoming normal human beings.

    Fanatic savagery is the natural state of humans and it is not evident that all nationalities will (or can) eventually develop a genuine consciousness.

  244. The Scalpel says: • Website
    @AnonFromTN

    What are the prospects, if any, of the previously proposed (re)union of Russia, Belarus, and Kazakhstan?

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  245. melanf says:
    @Seraphim

    Russian expansion in Siberia follows shortly after the conquest of Kazan by the first Tsar, Ivan IV. It was a state policy implemented by all subsequent Tsars.

    As you can see the conquest of Siberia took place through the land located far North of Kazan

    Part of the conquests took place in the course of completely private expeditions (eg campaign of Ermak) , other conquests were carried out with the support of the state, but by private forces. A close analogue of the conquerors of Siberia, a European Corsair in the Royal service-such as Francis Drake.

    • Replies: @Seraphim
  246. melanf says:
    @AnonFromTN

    Whatever Pushkin’s origins, they were certainly not Russian. That does not prevent him from being the greatest Russian poet of all times.

    Pushkin’s great-grandfather on the maternal side was definitely not Russian. The Pushkins family was an old Russian noble family, known since the middle ages.

    • Replies: @AP
    , @AnonFromTN
  247. melanf says:
    @Dmitry

    Yes some look all the way like Kazakhs

    The Volga Tatars look more southern than “Asian”. Here are two Olympic Champions – Rita Mamun (half-Indian ) and Alina Zagitova (Tatar). They look like sisters.
    But also exist atypical “Nordic” татары

    • Replies: @DFH
    , @Dmitry
    , @Philip Owen
  248. AP says:
    @melanf

    Pushkin’s non-African maternal ancestors were nobles of German and Scandinavian descent. The Pushkin family itself is supposedly of German origin, although they were in Russia since the 12th century.

    A very large % of Russia’s pre-Communist political and cultural elite were Russian by culture but not by descent. “Foreigners” such as Rurikids, Baltic Germans, Russified Poles or Lithuanians LARPing as Russian Eastern Slavs. Bolsheviks slaughtered or drove them into exile, replacing one group of non-Russian elite with another. After the Revolution, Russia was ruled largely by Caucasians, Jews and Balts instead of by these families of Russified Scandinavians, Germans, Tatars, etc. (under Stalin Jews and Balts were mostly liquidated and replaced by Caucasians)

    The post-Stalin period is probably the first time in history when Russia was actually led overwhelmingly by ethnic Russians. Until then actual ethnic Russians were mostly peasants, village priests, minor nobles at most.

    • Replies: @melanf
    , @melanf
    , @Mr. XYZ
  249. melanf says:
    @AP

    Pushkin’s non-African maternal ancestors were nobles of German and Scandinavian descent. The Pushkin family itself is supposedly of German origin, although they were in Russia since the 12th century.A very large % of Russia’s pre-Communist political and cultural elite were Russian by culture but not by descent.

    This is quite typical for Europe (and especially for the European aristocracy). The descendants of Alexander Pushkin (who became princes in Germany and claimed the throne of Luxembourg) are vivid proof of this.

  250. melanf says:
    @AP

    The post-Stalin period is probably the first time in history when Russia was actually led overwhelmingly by ethnic Russians.

    It’s nonsense. From the early middle ages, until 1761, in power in Russia were “genetically” Russian dynasty (Rurikids then Romanovs)

    • Replies: @AP
  251. AP says:

    This is quite typical for Europe (and especially for the European aristocracy).

    For royal families, sure, but not for aristocracies in general. Let’s look at the origins of Russia’s greatest classic writers of noble descent, for example:

    Gogol – 3/4 Ukrainian, 1/4 Polish

    Dostoyevsky – Dostoevsky’s parents were part of a multi-ethnic and multi-denominational noble family, its branches including Russian Orthodox Christians, Polish Roman Catholics and Ukrainian Eastern Catholics.[4] The family traced its roots back to a Tatar, Aslan Chelebi-Murza, who in 1389 defected from the Golden Horde and joined the forces of Dmitry Donskoy, the first prince of Muscovy to openly challenge the Mongol authority in the region,[5] and whose descendant, Danilo Irtishch, was ennobled and given lands in the Pinsk region (for centuries part of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania, now in modern-day Belarus) in 1509 for his services under a local prince, his progeny then taking the name “Dostoevsky” based on a village there called Dostoïevo.

    Tolstoy – The Tolstoys were a well-known family of old Russian nobility who traced their ancestry to a mythical nobleman named Indris described by Pyotr Tolstoy as arriving “from Nemec, from the lands of Caesar” to Chernigov in 1353 along with his two sons Litvinos (or Litvonis) and Zimonten (or Zigmont) and a druzhina of 3000 people.[7][8] While the word “Nemec” has been long used to describe Germans only, back in the days it was applied to any foreigner who didn’t speak Russian (from the word nemoy meaning mute).[9] Indris was then converted to Eastern Orthodoxy under the name of Leonty and his sons — as Konstantin and Feodor, respectively. Konstantin’s grandson Andrei Kharitonovich was nicknamed Tolstiy (translated as fat) by Vasily II of Moscow after he moved from Chernigov to Moscow.[7][8]

    Because of the pagan names and the fact that Chernigov at the time was ruled by Demetrius I Starshy some researches concluded that they were Lithuanians who arrived from the Grand Duchy of Lithuania, then part of the State of the Teutonic Order.

    Turgenev – Ivan Sergeyevich Turgenev was born in Oryol (modern-day Oryol Oblast, Russia) to noble Russian parents Sergei Nikolaevich Turgenev (1793–1834), a colonel in the Russian cavalry who took part in the Patriotic War of 1812, and Varvara Petrovna Turgeneva (née Lutovinova; 1787–1850). His father belonged to an old, but impoverished Turgenev family of Tula aristocracy that traces its history to the 15th century when a Tatar Mirza Lev Turgen (Ivan Turgenev after baptizing) left the Golden Horde to serve Vasily II of Moscow.

    Bulgakov – also Tatar origin

    Lermontov – Mikhail Yuryevich Lermontov was born in Moscow into the respectable noble family of Lermontov, and he grew up in the village of Tarkhany (now Lermontovo in Penza Oblast).[2] His paternal family descended from the Scottish family of Learmonth, and can be traced to Yuri (George) Learmonth, a Scottish officer in the Polish-Lithuanian service who settled in Russia in the middle of the 17th century

    It’s funny that the Slavophile Aksyonov is from a family with Scandinavian origins.

    So basically, the elite in Russia were non-Russians coming together and LARPing as Russian Eastern Slavs, ethnic Russians were mostly peasants.

    ::::::::::::::

    In contrast with Germany – Goethe, Schiller were from ethnic German families. France – Voltaire, Moliere, of French families. Poland – mostly Polish but some Lithuanian and Ruthenian-origin families.

    I suppose England can be compared with Russia – much of the English aristocracy were of French Norman rather than native English descent. But Russia stands out.

    • Replies: @melanf
  252. AP says:
    @melanf

    Rurikids – Scandinavian origin.

    Romanovs – mixed up with Rurikids. Second Romanov’s wife, Maria Miloslavskaya, was from a family with Polish origins. His next wife, Peter the Great’s mother, was from a noble family of Tatar descent.

    It is very hard to find any of Russian elites with actual Russian origin.

    • Replies: @melanf
    , @Mr. Hack
  253. melanf says:
    @AP

    For royal families, sure, but not for aristocracies in general. Let’s look at the origins of Russia’s greatest classic writers

    From memory, Walter Scott, Stevenson-Scots, Conan Doyle Scottish-Irish-French, Sabbatini-Italian, Conrad-pole. I think this list is easy to continue. And absolutely ridiculously to track 12th-century-foreign-ancestors for writers of the 19th century.

    • Replies: @songbird
    , @AP
  254. melanf says:
    @AP

    Rurikids – Scandinavian origin.
    Romanovs – mixed up with Rurikids.

    The founder of the dynasty (who lived in the 9th century) was undoubtedly a Scandinavian. But this was before the advent of Russia and the Russian people. But Rurikids and
    Romanovs as dynasty which ruled Russia, undoubtedly local: genetically and on language and on culture.

    • Replies: @AP
  255. Seraphim says:
    @melanf

    The conquest of Kazan (1552) was shortly followed by the conquest of the Khanate of Sibir (capital Tyumen – roughly same latitude as Kazan, just a bit North). Already in 1555 the Khan Yadegar consented to pay tribute in fur to Moscow.
    All ‘private’ expeditions were carried on at the behest of the state. The principal role was played by the Stroganov family of highly successful Russian merchants, industrialists, landowners, and statesmen. They financed the Russian conquest of Siberia and Prince Pozharsky’s reconquest of Moscow from the Poles. They recruited and financed Yermak.

    • Replies: @melanf
    , @Philip Owen
  256. @songbird

    Not to mention JFK actually using federal troops to desegregate the University of Alabama.

    Southron resistance to desegregation is actually rather interesting, I have read about it in mainstream sources, but American race realist writing, in my (admittedly limited) impression, do not talk about it very much.

    What happened in Europe can only be explained by European politicians being ignorant about what really happened in America, which is explained by it being a forbidden topic.

    The worldview and education of European bien-pensants can be summed by reading the condescending New York Times and Washington Post, plus some stereotypical views.

    (I’ll admit also I do this sometimes. Once we met an American pair on vacation and we were so sure they were from Texas, apparently they were from Illinois. Their Texas imitation sounded even more extreme to my ears.)

    • Replies: @songbird
  257. DFH says:
    @melanf

    That is a very European looking half-Indian. In general they have much more ‘Southern’ looking hair (often curly or very wavy) and more prominent noses.

  258. melanf says:
    @Seraphim

    All ‘private’ expeditions were carried on at the behest of the state.

    Definitely no

    They recruited and financed Yermak.

    “Максим Строганов соглашался выдать казакам некоторое количество хлеба, но не иначе как взаймы под проценты, «прося у них кабалы». «Егда возвратитеся, на ком те припасы по цене взяти, и кто отдаст, точно или с лихвой?» — спрашивал купец у ермаковцев. Возмущенные казаки приступили к Максиму «гызом» и едва не убили его. Иван Кольцо пригрозил Максиму, что расстреляет его. Испугавшись угроз, Максим открыл амбары и отпустил запас на казачьи струги «по запросу».”

    https://www.litmir.me/bd/?b=97099&p=1

    Of course they funded Ermak – when the Ermaks pirates aimed a gun at Maxim Stroganov, and promised to kill him if he did not pay. .

    • Replies: @Seraphim
  259. Seraphim says:
    @melanf

    The point was hotly debated by historians. But judging the things from the standpoint of Moscow eastern policy, it is more likely that the initiative belonged to the Stroganovs and that Maxim summoned Yermak. But no doubt that the Cossacks had always had a propensity for brigandage.

  260. Mr. Hack says:
    @AP

    Here’s an expanded list of Russian noble families. In addition to the ‘native’ Russian nobility including Riurikid descent, I notice a lot from Tatar, Georgian and Lithuanian descent too. Of course, there are families of other origins too: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Russian_princely_families

  261. Mr. Hack says:
    @Seraphim

    “The Greek confession, separate from all others, gives us a special national character”.

    Russian ethnophilitism revealed – the Russian mandate to Christianize the world, Russian style (Russian Orthodoxy). Lacking a satisfactory secular philosophy with which to entice the world, we see a tightening of ties between the ROC and the Kremlin. It’s not just a coincidence that Patiriarch Kirill has an office of his own within the Kremlin:

    In his December 1 speech, the president frequently alluded to morality, ethics, and spirituality, established concepts in Russian propaganda discourse used to contrast the “amoral” West with Russian “spirituality and morality.” The way Putin sees it, the church helps the Russian regime to conduct its propaganda campaign on the world stage, supporting Russia’s status as a “beacon of traditional values.”

    https://carnegie.ru/commentary/75058

    But as we all know, Russia and Putin himself are not beacons of ‘traditional values’ but outposts of Western culture through and through. It’s all fantasy folks!

    • Replies: @Aedib
  262. Dmitry says:
    @melanf

    Zagitova could be 50% Japanese for appearance.

    But something recessive – as the parents do not.

    • Replies: @melanf
  263. songbird says:
    @melanf

    What is interesting about Conrad is English was, I believe, his third language or so.

  264. OT

    Ukraine to deliver a very long range radar to Israel. It’s apparently better than a similar Russian model.

    https://defence-blog.com/army/israel-received-kolchuga-m-passive-radar-system.html

    • Replies: @Sean
  265. Sean says:
    @reiner Tor

    It is solely for tracking rogue Ukrainian missiles

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siberia_Airlines_Flight_1812

    Siberia Airlines Flight 1812[2] was a commercial flight shot down by the Ukrainian Air Force over the Black Sea on 4 October 2001, en route from Tel Aviv, Israel to Novosibirsk, Russia. The aircraft, a Soviet-made Tupolev Tu-154, carried an estimated 66 passengers and 12 crew members. Most of the passengers were Israelis visiting relatives in Russia. There were no survivors.

    Ukraine has an interesting export promotion policy.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    , @AnonFromTN
  266. songbird says:
    @Hyperborean

    I’ve wondered a bit about what a full list of the city pairs of student exchanges would look like at the level of public high school, between America and Europe. I bet anything it would mostly be American suburbs paired with real European cities.

    In Boston, there was some resistance to busing (desegregation of public schools.). My impression is that it mostly came from the poor whites living in the projects, which were also being desegregated. Curiously, many blacks from other parts of the country still call Boston a racist city. Only about 13% of the kids in public schools in the city are white now. In the ’50s Boston was still about 97% white.

    In the first years of busing, South Boston High (once a very white area) was protected by 500 police officers everyday. More cops than students (who showed up.)

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
  267. Sean says:

    Bershidsky’s Vision is the Soviet vision.

    The Siberian Curse
    How Communist Planners Left Russia Out in the Cold

    Does this or that plan for Siberia reflect the best use of Russia’s resources for the nation’s well-being? Specifically, as far as regional policy is concerned, the general rule should be: “Locate economic activity in Siberia only if it cannot be done more efficiently (at lower cost) elsewhere.” […]

    You ask why Russia has been late in developing its eastern regions. I’d say it’s just the opposite: its East is far over-developed. Consider the contrast between Russia, on the one hand, and the US and Canada, on the other. In terms of relative shares of total national population and territory, Eastern Siberia and the Russian Far East are roughly 15 times more densely populated than Alaska and Canada’s northern territories. Alaska has only 710,000 residents; Canada’s Northwest Territory and Yukon Territory together have 79,000. Russians complain about the “depopulation” of the East. But if Eastern Siberia and the Russian Far East had followed the American and Canadian patterns, they would in total have barely 1 million residents instead of their current 15 million.

    Liberal economics is the best way to make a powerful economy and punch above one’s weight. The Invisible Hand is the West’s secret weapon

  268. OT

    The UK (I hope the article is not disrespectful) is planning to become a true global player again, I guess this time as a farce.

    https://defence-blog.com/army/u-k-plans-to-build-two-new-military-bases-in-caribbean-and-asia.html

    • Replies: @DFH
    , @Thorfinnsson
    , @songbird
  269. Dmitry says:
    @Sean

    It’s surely equipment they rent from Ukraine to practice training exercises, not because they actually want to buy Ukrainian equipment.

    E.g. something like how they use MiG-29s for training.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
  270. @songbird

    I’ve wondered a bit about what a full list of the city pairs of student exchanges would look like at the level of public high school, between America and Europe. I bet anything it would mostly be American suburbs paired with real European cities.

    I don’t know about other European countries, but in 1990s Sweden they introduced education reforms similar to what American conservatives and libertarians propose (school vouchers, increased private schools, etc.).

    As part of what I experienced, this meant that the few Swedes left and the at least halfway well-functioning immigrants (European and non-white) who were forced to live in the suburbs due to exorbitant real estate prices all sent their children to proper schools in the city (even though the journey can take hours every day).

    Meanwhile the local suburb schools, which were filled with the worst sort of muslim peasant offspring, became notorious for rumours about drugs, weapons and all the usual things that come with vibrancy.

    • Replies: @songbird
  271. @Dmitry

    What I found interesting was that it’s better than what Russia has. I think such early warning radar systems are very useful to Russia, whose main potential adversaries (NATO countries and also Japan) will likely field stealth aircraft.

    • Replies: @Sean
  272. DFH says:
    @reiner Tor

    It is ridiculous.

    “I am very much looking at how can we get as much of our resources forward based, actually creating a deterrent but also taking a British presence,” he said.

    Who is the naval base in the Caribbean meant to deter?

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
  273. @DFH

    It’s going to effectively deter Venezuelan aggression against an important British ally, the so-called United States of America. The new British superpower has to protect its allies if it is to be taken seriously.

    • Replies: @DFH
  274. DFH says:
    @reiner Tor

    We are ready to protect the new republics of South America from any attempts to restore the Bourbon monarchies

    • Agree: reiner Tor
  275. Sean says:
    @reiner Tor

    Unlikely this is anything but a charity or diplomatic move to balance the way Israel has excellent relations with Russia. Israel has the best the US has to offer, and Ukraine is a joke country. Their export model tanks malfunctioned at a international showpiece event recently.

    https://defence-blog.com/army/ukraine-trying-hide-info-t-84-tanks-problems.html

    https://www.wired.com/2010/11/blocked-wikileaks-shows-how-irans-air-defense-deal-died/

    The air defence system that Iran paid the Russians for was not delivered for years. Meanwhile Russia held joint exercises with Israel and doubtless showed them how to defeat it. And Russia also publicly pledged to defend Israel against Iran. You can’t beat the Jewish state, don’t even try.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
  276. AP says:
    @melanf

    Shakespeare – English (Bliss will say African); Defoe – English; Dickens, English; Jane Austen, Shelley, English, etc. For England you have t0 find exceptions, in Russia it is standard to have non-Russian origins.

    And absolutely ridiculously to track 12th-century-foreign-ancestors for writers of the 19th century.

    Not ridiculous at all. The point is that Russian elite was mostly of non-Russian origin. The time when their ancestors came to Russia is irrelevant to this point. Only peasants were actual ethnic Russians for the most part.

    Anon from TN was actually correct when he wrote that being Russian is a “state of mind.” Russian elites were mostly just foreigners playing Russians, actual Russians were the peasants whom they ruled.

    • Replies: @melanf
  277. AP says:
    @melanf

    Rurikids maintained a mostly Scandinavian bloodline until the 12th century. And then they mixed with Tatars.

    Romanovs started as Russians (they had rather humble origins) but soon married with Poles and Tatars. And from Catherine II they were Germans.

    But Russia’s elite’s foreign origins went far beyond only the royal family. After all, many European countries had a non-native royal family. But in Russian the entire elite was pretty much foreign origin. Verndasky had a survey of 17th century Russian noble families. The exact origins of the families surveyed were: 229 of Western European (including German) origin, 223 of Polish and Lithuanian origin (this number included Ruthenian nobility), 156 of Tatar and other Oriental origin, 168 families belonged to the House of Rurik and 42 were of unspecified “Russian” origin.
    After the 17th century the influx of Baltic Germans and Ukrainians made the elite even less Russian by origin.

    In Europe, only the English after the Norman conquest had an elite as foreign as was Russia’s. Outside Europe, Manchurians over Han Chinese, or Mughal rulers of India come to mind.

    • Replies: @Mr. XYZ
  278. @reiner Tor

    The plan is to recover the British West Indies, which is for the first time possible thanks to Trump being President. Then the plantations can be restored, which will replace the lost export markets on the Continent.

    In Asia a new Opium War is planned.

  279. @Sean

    It’s a very low frequency radar, which is good for early warning of the presence of enemy aircraft (including stealth aircraft) and perhaps initial detection of a target, but it’s not very good for fire-control or target illumination, as accuracy is not very good with these types of radar.

    Anyway, it’s obviously going to be used primarily to practice fighting in the presence of Russian radar systems.

  280. @Thorfinnsson

    In Asia they also need to be prepared for the eventuality of a sepoy mutiny and Indian rebellion against the East India Company. So I have to say it all makes a lot of sense.

  281. songbird says:
    @reiner Tor

    The UK draws on the Commonwealth for its troops, does it not? There was a news story a few days ago, about a Ghanaian suing them for damage he supposedly suffered from the cold. Apparently, that is what many Africans do in the UK, which I would not rate as a particularly cold country.

    I don’t know if it is just simple fraud, or it betokens good news for the retaking of Europe. Though I do think there are HBD differences regarding the cold. I’m not sure the MENA folks are as susceptible as blacks.

    I must confess that I’m ignorant as to how the recruitment process works. Anyone know if they gain citizenship? Or go awol? The idea of recruiting black troops out of Africa for one’s army has got to be among one of the most foolish and PC things ever done. Teddy Roosevelt rated blacks as very cowardly, and poor in battle, though, I believe, he did speak with a forked tongue and praised them in certain quarters.

  282. @songbird

    I think it’s simply a question of a sixty-odd million middle-size country not having enough population to provide manpower for the needs of the armed forces of a fully fledged global superpower. The UK now has to provide for the security needs of a huge colonial empire including the Isle of Man and even the London Borough of Tower Hamlets. It simply needs the Africans, otherwise it would quickly run out of soldiers.

  283. @Thorfinnsson

    Then the plantations can be restored

    I suppose that’s rather grim news for Britain’s black population.

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
  284. songbird says:
    @Hyperborean

    In America, there has long been a heated debate about vouchers.

    Most liberals seem to be against them, feeling it would threaten public schools – which they are very fond of both for their brainwashing potential and for the teacher-union money funneled into leftist politics. A few others believe in the somewhat mystical idea of bad schools – that the schools blacks go to are somehow cursed, and if they changed buildings or administrations, it would solve all social problems that blacks have.

    Among conservatives, it is more complicated. Some believe anything that would hurt public schools and increase choice would be positive. Others that it is just a siren song – that vouchers would destroy the last true segregation barrier among blacks and whites, which is economics and price discrimination. I have moved largely from the first camp to the second.

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
  285. @songbird

    The British Army has a Gurkha brigade, but I’m not aware of other foreign recruiting for the armed forces.

    Gurkha veterans are allowed to settle in Britain as part of some kind of idiotic right-wing multiculturalism.

  286. @DFH

    I’ve often mused that barring foreign interference it would likely to be quite easy to seize control of most of the Caribbean. Probably a few thousand bodybuilding shit posters could get it done with some arms, leadership, training, and cash.

    The only island where serious resistance could be expected is Cuba. Fortunately the US government hates Cuba.

    Tropical Aryans to secure Fox Bolton’s blessing for pan-Caribbean surf empire?

    • Replies: @Swarthy Greek
  287. @German_reader

    It’s wonderful news. Slavery ennobles the negro and allows him to serve a higher calling (the white man).

  288. songbird says:
    @DFH

    Perhaps, there is a future for the miscegenated branch of the British monarchy after all. I hope that Prince Harry’s children will be given the proper titles to claim it, ie. Prince of Jamaica/Princess of Haiti. Or perhaps, Emperor/Empress would be more appropriate.

    There was a subtle bit of comedy when Queen Victoria was able to wangle the title of Empress of India for herself in imitation of the Kaiser and Czar, despite not having much real power at home.

    • Replies: @Swarthy Greek
  289. @songbird

    I’m strongly opposed to vouchers, even if I sympathize with the political objective of crushing the teachers.

    The whole point of private school is to keep your kids away from the losers who can’t afford private school. Vouchers would destroy this.

  290. melanf says:
    @AP

    Shakespeare – English (Bliss will say African); Defoe – English; Dickens, English; Jane Austen, Shelley, English, etc

    In your opinion, Ivan Turgenev is not Russian in origin, because Ivan Turgenev (who lived in the 19th century) presumably had a Tatar ancestor (who lived in the 15th century, that is, 400 years before Ivan Turgenev). In this case, Shakespeare is not an Englishman, since he had French ancestors on his mother’s side (the noble family of the Ardennes was repeatedly “mixed” with the French aristocracy). Any of the writers you listed are not English, because at a distance of 400 years, they all had foreign ancestors.

    • Replies: @AP
  291. AP says:
    @melanf

    In your opinion, Ivan Turgenev is not Russian in origin, because Ivan Turgenev (who lived in the 19th century) presumably had a Tatar ancestor (who lived in the 15th century, that is, 400 years before Ivan Turgenev).

    And he also had non-Russian origins on various other lines. Majority of Russian elite had non-Russian origins. Paternal ancestry of these people was for purposes of sampling.

    Among German, French, Polish etc. elites one can find foreigners here and there; among Russian elites one can find the occasional ethnic Russian:

    I already posted the survey of origins: very few Russians. Russians were peasants.

    Verndasky had a survey of 17th century Russian noble families. The exact origins of the families surveyed were: 229 of Western European (including German) origin, 223 of Polish and Lithuanian origin (this number included Ruthenian nobility), 156 of Tatar and other Oriental origin, 168 families belonged to the House of Rurik and 42 were of unspecified “Russian” origin.

    As I said, England had a lot of French-Normans among elites.

    • Replies: @Simpleguest
    , @melanf
    , @Mr. XYZ
  292. @AP

    It must be frustrating: such a profound insight and no one gives a hoot.

    • Replies: @AP
    , @Seraphim
  293. @Thorfinnsson

    Most Caribbeans are mulattoes without any sense of identity. Why would they be willing to defend some token form of political independence?

    • Replies: @songbird
  294. AP says:
    @Simpleguest

    Melanf has a habit of denigrating Russian peasants and cheering on the Soviet murder through starvation of millions of them. I am pointing out that he hates real Russians and prefers people of non-Russian origins who larp as Russians over real Russians.

    such a profound insight and no one gives a hoot

    Nothing profound about it. It is obvious. A couple people have responded, one multiple times so of course someone gives a hoot.

    Let me guess: you are a Balkanoid?

  295. songbird says:
    @Swarthy Greek

    I don’t doubt there are varying degrees of admixture, but I’m not sure I would call any place mulatto, except the DR (and that has a bit of Amerind) The other places seem more or less what you’d find among the black pop in America, except for Haiti which seems notably blacker.

    You have possibly never seen a Dominican and Haitian in the same room, if you think they don’t have a strong sense of identity. Of course, identity exists on different levels. Perhaps, that is just the natural antagonism between black and mulatto.

  296. @songbird

    Well there is a precedent for that, although haiti is not a part of the commonwealth :https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean-Jacques_Dessalines

    • Replies: @songbird
  297. @Seraphim

    How can an opinion be more than an opinion? One opinion does not prove another right or wrong, it’s just an opinion.

    What I wrote is my opinion, I did not sell it as somebody else’s. In my opinion Dostoyevsky is one of the greatest writers in human history (sometimes even prescient: read the Demons). This does not mean that he was always right. The same goes for Pushkin: he was an outstanding poet, one of the best in Russian literature (you can’t really compare poetry between languages like you compare prose; translated poem makes about as much sense as alcohol-free vodka), but that does not mean he was right in everything. Putin is a man with ordinary abilities and common sense. He looks so great only because current Western “leaders” are pathetic nonentities. Again, he is not always right. E.g., he keeps Chubais near the throne and the trough, while by rights this scum deserves to be hung publicly, maybe even by the balls. Solzh was a pretentious fraud, especially evaluated in the context of Russian literature. He is so much below Dostoyevsky, Pushkin, Tolstoy, Gogol, Bulgakov, and many others that it’s offensive to even compare him to the real writers or poets. Again, this is my opinion, not somebody else’s.

    • Replies: @Seraphim
  298. @The Scalpel

    I have no idea. Not to mention that Belarus and Kazakhstan are in different leagues. Kazakhstan pays its way and has everything to do so in the foreseeable future (unless they commit national suicide, like poor unfortunate Ukraine). Belarus never paid for itself since 1991, it exists the way it does exclusively due to Russian subsidies, direct and indirect. From my perspective, Russia should not unite with Belarus: the only good thing that came out of the breakup of the USSR was that Russia got rid of various parasites. Why accept those helminths again?

  299. @melanf

    The majority in this “old Russian noble family” was not Russian ethnically. The same is true for most of “noble Russian families”, including tsars. My point is that Russian is not a nationality (tribally defined), but much greater than that. Russia is a civilization, distinct from both European and Chinese ones. The US is also not a nationality, but a distinct civilization. All countries defined by tribal links are inferior to civilizations.

  300. @Sean

    As the joke has it, Ukraine is the only country that shot down two civilian aircraft and not a single military one.

    • Replies: @Sean
  301. songbird says:
    @Swarthy Greek

    I assume they will use their monarchical history as an advantage over the French, from whose sphere of influence they have partly wrestled Mali. Why stop at greatest historical extant, when you have proper ambition?

  302. melanf says:
    @AP

    And he also had non-Russian origins on various other lines.

    Shakespeare (and any of the English writers you listed) had foreign ancestors along many lines at a distance of 400 years.

    Among German, French, Polish etc. elites one can find foreigners here and there; among Russian elites one can find the occasional ethnic Russian:

    The absolute majority of the Russian nobility was Russian. The existence of a foreign ancestor 400 years ago (in most cases mythological foreign ancestor), does not make a person a foreigner (or do you think that the descendants of Pocahontas – Indians?).

    Verndasky had a survey of 17th century Russian noble families. The exact origins of the families surveyed were: 229 of Western European (including German) origin, 223 of Polish and Lithuanian origin (this number included Ruthenian nobility), 156 of Tatar and other Oriental origin, 168 families belonged to the House of Rurik and 42 were of unspecified “Russian” origin.

    That’s funny. In the Moscow princedom/Russian Tsardom massively migrated (or passed with their lands) lords of the Russian principalities on the territory of the medieval “Lithuania”. Among migrants-aristocrats were ethnic Lithuanians (or rather half and a quarter Lithuanians), but they were few. Polish aristocrats (ethnically Polish) in Moscow princedom/Russian Tsardom did not migrate. “229 of Western European (including German) origin” is of course a mythical genealogies. French/Italian/English / German… aristocracy never moved to medieval Russia. All these false “Western European” genealogies (with few exceptions) mask the origin from the local swineherds.
    Tatar aristocrats really migrated EN masse to Moscow princedom/Russian Tsardom, but there were also false “Tatar genealogies” when the grandson of the local swineherd (grandson who became a feudal Lord) invented genealogy from Genghis Khan.

    House of Rurik – a local dynasty (but funny that were a fake Rurikids, it is known for sure thanks to genetic research).
    If for approximate calculation exclude ethnic Lithuanians, but to consider all “Tatar” genealogies authentic, it will turn out from your list: 229 +223 +168 +42=462 noble families of Russian origin, 156 of foreign origin.

    • Replies: @AP
  303. melanf says:
    @Dmitry

    Zagitova could be 50% Japanese for appearance.

    half japan, half german
    mestizo of the first generation have so “various” appearance that it is difficult to compare.

  304. Seraphim says:
    @AnonFromTN

    You don’t sell your opinion, but in your opinion it is the right one, isn’t it?
    Isn’t that amusing that both ‘liberal’ and ‘socialist’ writers found out that Dostoevsky was as poor a writer (“a third-rate writer whose fame is incomprehensible” – Nabokov) as Solzhenitsyn. Reason? Because he created “the ultimate formula of egoism-Antichrist-Europe on one side and brotherhood-Christ-Russia on the other”).
    “How can a man write so badly, so unbelievably badly, and make you feel so deeply?”, mused Hemingway. Hemingway was an anti-fascist, of course.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  305. Sean says:
    @AnonFromTN

    Brain drained Ukraine has sold weapons to Saudi Arabia recently. Ukrainian R&D coming up with anything much seems less likely than it being Ukraine–badged US tech. Ukraine sales to Israel is quite possibly a way to transfer US technology to Israel by the back door. Israel got all sorts of privileged access to the F35 technology.They were not allowed to get the F22 but you can bet their custom F35s were vehicles for technology transfer.

    https://en.globes.co.il/en/article-f35-sale-boosts-reciprocal-procurement-in-israel-1001266942

    • Replies: @AP
  306. AP says:
    @melanf

    Shakespeare (and any of the English writers you listed) had foreign ancestors along many lines at a distance of 400 years.

    And among Russian aristocrats – most lines. This is the difference.

    It’s why I sampled just the paternal lines of the most famous Russian aristocratic authors. Every one of them had foreign origin. But if you sample the paternal lines of English authors – most do not.

    The absolute majority of the Russian nobility was Russian.

    And yet, randomly looking just at paternal lines of most famous noble authors – every one had foreign origin. Is it just a wild coincidence?

    The existence of a foreign ancestor 400 years ago (in most cases mythological foreign ancestor), does not make a person a foreigner

    I wrote of foreign origin, with little local Russian descent. When, say, 60% of one’s ancestors are of foreign origin it is noteworthy.

    That’s funny. In the Moscow princedom/Russian Tsardom massively migrated (or passed with their lands) lords of the Russian principalities on the territory of the medieval “Lithuania”. Among migrants-aristocrats were ethnic Lithuanians (or rather half and a quarter Lithuanians), but they were few. Polish aristocrats (ethnically Polish) in Moscow princedom/Russian Tsardom did not migrate.

    Poles came later. Wrubel had Polish origin.

    All these false “Western European” genealogies (with few exceptions) mask the origin from the local swineherds

    So when familytree DNA gave me Norway as likely origin, my legendary 12th century Varangian paternal descent was a fairytale?

    And Rurukid DNA project – all from Sweden except the Chernigov branch.

    • Replies: @AP
    , @melanf
  307. Seraphim says:
    @Simpleguest

    Can’t you understand that only ‘Ukrainians’ are the pure Russians.

    • Replies: @AP
    , @AP
  308. @Seraphim

    From what I read (about half of what he wrote) Nabokov is a third-rate writer in Russian and a fourth-fifth rate in English. In contrast, Dostoyevsky was a genius. Again, that is my opinion. Nobody has a monopoly on being right, myself included.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  309. AP says:
    @Sean

    Ukrainian R&D coming up with anything much seems less likely than it being Ukraine–badged US tech.

    No.

    USA doesn’t have this stuff:

    https://defence-blog.com/missiles/new-ukrainian-high-precision-rockets-system-completes-final-test.html

  310. AP says:
    @AP

    Wrubel had Polish origin.

    I looked him up on Russian wiki now. Paternal grandfather – Pole. Mother’s father was from the old Russian noble Basargin family – Tatar origin, of course. Basargin’s wife was a Danish woman. Basargin’s mother – from a family from Finland, von Krabbe. Typical non-Russian origin of Russia’s pre-Soviet elites. The peasants whom Melanf hates (or at least sneers at) are the real Russians.

  311. AP says:
    @Seraphim

    Only peasants are true Russians. So Lomonosov, of peasant origin, was a Russian (though a Finnic sort of Russian from the far North). As was Chekhov’s father (his mother was a Ukrainian). But elites – no. A bunch of foreigners from different places who larped as Russians, from the royal family to the nobility, even much of the poor nobility such as Dostoyevsky’s family.

    • Replies: @Adam
  312. AP says:
    @Seraphim

    So Bykov in essence was correct in his nice book ЖД – that in Russia there has been a longstanding struggle between Varyags and Jews, with natives being passive material.

    • Replies: @Mr. XYZ
  313. Sean says:

    It is 100% Ukrainian made and its development dates from the begining of the war with Russia OK. But what they sold to Israel was not the product of a former Soviet factory (as with the the ludicrous suggestion that a Ukrainian factory had sold ICBM engines to North Korea. Ukraine knows how to make rockets, but rockets are not radar.

    Ukraine is looking to purchase a small number of surface-to-air missile systems from the United States, possibly Patriots, amid a recent spike in tensions with separatists in the country’s eastern Donbas region, as well as their chief backer, Russia. The move also comes as the U.S. government is expanding arms deals with the government in Kiev, including the sale of Javelin anti-tank missiles, and has even recently bought a Ukrainian air defense radar for its own analysis and training use.

    Ukrainian radar is like .22LR versions for basic training, not a real weapon. Israel conducted joint air defence exercises with Russia and knows everything it needs to know about the latest Russian air defence systems . Did you not recall them destroying Syrian targets right under the nose of the Russians and tricking the Syrian’s Russian air defence system into shooting down a Russian plane?

    Israel had no objection to Russia delivering its most advanced air defence system to Iran because the delivery was delayed, while Russia taught the Israelis how to defeat it. The Iranians were incensed and threaten to sue Russia over the delivery being delayed for years. Weapons sales are highly political and diplomatic considerations are paramount. How did North Korean ICBM nuke tech advance so fast? The Chinese gave them it, because they need NK as a wedge against the US. It is a known fact that Pakistan got missile parts from China. Noerth Korean nuke know-how was given to an ally of China by another semidetatched ally of China.

    The US could buy better radar from Britain than anything they could get from Ukraine, this is a maybe not tech transfer as much as a sort of sweetheart deal in which Israel is also helping out.

  314. Mr. XYZ says:
    @AP

    In regards to your last paragraph here, weren’t a large percentage of Russia’s post-Cold War oligarchs Jews? I seem to recall Anatoly Karlin previously saying that, out of the seven big Russian oligarchs in the 1990s, six were Jews (and I’m considering descent through the father’s line to count for this since I am not a big fan of halakha).

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
  315. Mr. XYZ says:
    @AP

    I wonder if the anti-Semitic discrimination (Pale of Settlement, et cetera) that the German Romanovs introduced in Russia had anything to do with a fear that Jews are going to replace Germans as the dominant Russian elite if the Jews were treated as genuine equals. After all, Jews certainly had the potential for this.

    BTW, it’s interesting that Jews are over-represented in the elite of the U.S. right now. Their higher than average IQ probably explains a lot of this, but it’s still interesting.

  316. Mr. XYZ says:
    @AP

    Can you please provide a link to this book?

    • Replies: @AP
  317. Mr. XYZ says:
    @AP

    The minority Alawites are the elite in Syria nowadays, no?

    BTW, it’s interesting that, in spite of the fact that they weren’t the historical elite of Russia, Russian peasants still managed to provide a sufficiently powerful backbone for Russia to become a superpower (albeit at a way too high cost in lives). Of course, without Bolshevism, Russia would have very likely become a much mightier political and economic force.

  318. Russia is European. Most ordinary Russians think so. Given the Chinese alternative there is no alternative.

    • Replies: @Adam
  319. Adam says:
    @AP

    Are you really incapable of understanding that after living in a country for several centuries and assimilating with the dominant ethnic group, you aren’t a foreigner in any meaningful sense. My Norwegian ancestors had a surname indicating German descent. They were not German and I am not Norwegian.

    It’s true that in various periods the Russian nobility had a large proportion of actual foreigners (i.e people who did not speak Russian natively and had a conscious identification with another ethnic group), but as usual you’re exaggerating this fact to conform to your narrative as a Ukrainian nationalist.

    You’re not Russian and have no right to determine who is and is not Russian. The idea that Dostoevsky was a non-Russian because he had a 14th century Tatar ancestor is one of the most astoundingly idiotic statements I’ve heard someone say on this forum. Rather than doubling down on your assertion that the only real Russians are some inbred pig farmers from Tver, why don’t you consider whether what you’re saying is actually coherent and not some throw away line to undermine Russian history, culture, and identity (90% of your presence on this forum).

    • Replies: @AP
  320. @melanf

    I cannot reliably distinguish a Tatar from a Russian. Some of my Russian freinds (Rodnoveri) claim there is no difference. To them Tatars are Russians who did not Christianize. But then they believe that Russians are not Slavs but the former inhabitants of Great Tataria.

    • Replies: @Seraphim
  321. @Thorfinnsson

    Actually, in the UK we are now only using coal in the coldest months of winter. The final decline was large and fast. I think there are two big coal burners left. One, Drax, is however the biggest power station in the UK. It mixes the coal with biofuel to evade regulation. The other is Aberthaw in South Wales, also one of the biggest. It is closing this year. I helped to build it as an apprentice almost 50 years ago.

  322. Adam says:
    @Philip Owen

    Russians are genetically, linguistically, and culturally European (though they differ from the rest of Europe somewhat in that last sense), however their physical remoteness and geopolitical position has precluded any real identity as Europeans. Most Russians regard themselves simply as Russians, or perhaps Slavs, while Europeans have always regarded Russians as partially or mostly an Asiatic people.

    • Replies: @Seraphim
    , @Philip Owen
    , @AP
  323. Seraphim says:
    @Adam

    When would ‘Europeans’ realize that they are NOT the center of the world? But the periphery of a world where Russians occupy a central position? The periphery of ‘Eur-Asia’.

  324. @melanf

    What I notice in Russia is a bimodality in height. There is a distinct group of well above average people and then average people with little in between. As I am in between by Russian standards (taller than average but I don’t match the giants – I am the same height as the females – 177) perhaps I am more sensitive to it.

  325. @songbird

    Read the Book of Revalations. Then join Cromwell’s New Model Army.

    • Replies: @songbird
  326. @Mr. XYZ

    I seem to recall Anatoly Karlin previously saying that, out of the seven big Russian oligarchs in the 1990s, six were Jews (and I’m considering descent through the father’s line to count for this since I am not a big fan of halakha).

    Known as the Semibankirschina.

  327. @Adam

    Fairly early genetic studies (2008?) by Oxford University concluded that Poles, Ukrainians and South Volga Russians were indistinguishable although there was a female Germanic cluster in Ukraine. North West Russians – not just Novgorod but North Muscovy too, had a Finnish component as well as the Slavic one. Of course, there are Mordovins and so on across Russia. The Volga samples were from Saratov which actually has rather a mixed ethnic history, Ukrainians native to the area, Mordavian Finns, Tatars and once there were Germans. I suppose most Russian settlers arrived from Muscovy from the time of Peter.

  328. @Seraphim

    A sort of mini East India Company or perhaps Hudson Bay Company is a closer analogy, although the HBC traded rather than exacted tribute. It tends to be less expensive in the end.

  329. @Dmitry

    The Germans in Kazakhstan came from Saratov. There were divisions between Catholics and Protestants.

  330. Seraphim says:
    @Philip Owen

    Who can take the Rodnoveri clowns seriously? But, in a way they recognize what they really are: Khazars!
    ‘Slavic Native Faith’ closely resembles to what Count Pyotr Valuyev called (in 1876) ‘Slavophile onanism’.

  331. @German_reader

    The holiday cottage my parents used in the 1950’s was built into a shingle bank (storm beach) next to the sea. It had been there since at least 1850. The biggest waves didn’t quite break over the bank and flood the cottage, except for once storm in 1952. They did again in 2015. Two storms in 60 years does not make for serious sea level rise. Nearby, the rivers have silted up, cutting medieval castles off from the sea faster than any proposed sea level rise. Wasn’t Vanuatu supposed to be in trouble by now.

    In Medieval times in Wales, what are now mountain tops turned into desert by rain were productive farms.

    The point about sea level is that in consolidates global warning concerns into one measure.

  332. @Thorfinnsson

    Agree

    Another factor is that solar panels must be near the load to amke sense. The cost of stepping up the voltage to distribution levels is just about doable. Stepping up to transmission voltages is not an option.

  333. @songbird

    The UK draws on the Commonwealth for its troops, does it not?

    Germany is mulling allowing EU citizens to join the Bundeswehr, which would probably accelerate the draining of the eastern periphery, as salaries are higher.

    http://www.bvoltaire.fr/demain-les-alsaciens-mosellans-pourraient-a-nouveau-integrer-larmee-allemande/

    • Replies: @songbird
  334. songbird says:
    @Hyperborean

    About ten years ago, the US Army ran a recruiting campaign in Spanish. “Yo soy el army.” I was dumbfounded by it. I had had my fears before, but I think that was when I realized the US is probably fucked. Though, I guess it is better than Arabic, or one of those clicking languages of Africa.

    The desire to fill recruitment quotas at whatever cost has a strange similarity to the importation of bodies which underpins the faulty economic reasoning of globalism.

    They probably wish Turkey was part of the EU. I’ve heard that they are discussing bringing back the draft this time for women too. What idiots – I’m sure a unisex draft will do wonders for Germany’s TFR.

    • Replies: @Mitleser
  335. AP says:
    @Mr. XYZ

    Here is the English translation. It isn’t bad:

    https://www.amazon.com/Living-Souls-Dmitry-Bykov/dp/1846881269/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1546230846&sr=8-2&keywords=bykov

    Probably the best modern Russian writer is Vodolaskin. He is an Orthodox Christian, Seraphim would like his works.

  336. AP says:
    @Adam

    Are you really incapable of understanding that after living in a country for several centuries and assimilating with the dominant ethnic group, you aren’t a foreigner in any meaningful sense

    Ah, so you are incapable of actually reading what I wrote in my posts on the subject.

    Anon from TN can show you the way. Russia is a state of mind.

    The idea that Dostoevsky was a non-Russian because he had a 14th century Tatar ancestor is one of the most astoundingly idiotic statements I’ve heard someone say on this forum.

    It wasn’t just some lone Tatar from the 14th century. Most of his ancestors were of non-Russian origin. They were almost all Lithuanian, Belarussian, Ukrainian, Polish. As I wrote, most of the Russian elites were not of Russian ethnic origin. The peasants were real Russians. This makes Russia quite different from Germany, France, Poland, etc.

    My Norwegian ancestors had a surname indicating German descent. They were not German and I am not Norwegian.

    You are not. You are, however, a fool.

    why don’t you consider whether what you’re saying is actually coherent and not some throw away line to undermine Russian history, culture, and identity (90% of your presence on this forum).

    I do none of these things. I do insult Sovoks. If you equate Russians with Sovoks than you are the one who insults Russia.

    I was teasing melanf, who takes pride in the deaths of millions of Russian peasants at the hands of the Bolsheviks. He thinks they deserved it. Very telling that you do not have a problem with that. Melanf hates real Russians.

  337. AP says:
    @Adam

    Russians are genetically, linguistically, and culturally European (though they differ from the rest of Europe somewhat in that last sense), however their physical remoteness and geopolitical position has precluded any real identity as Europeans.

    Roughly analogous to Spaniards.

    Most Russians regard themselves simply as Russians, or perhaps Slavs

    Correct.

    while Europeans have always regarded Russians as partially or mostly an Asiatic people.

    Europeans traditionally regard anyone to the west of themselves as partially Asiatic. Germans – Huns. Germans say Europe ends at the Elbe. Poles say they are Europe’s Eastern stronghold. Ukrainians say Russians are Tatars-Mongols. Russians generally embrace their mixed nature, seeing it as positive.

    • Replies: @German_reader
  338. Adam says:
    @AP

    >Ah, so you are incapable of actually reading what I wrote in my posts on the subject.

    I read enough. Almost all of the proof you have provided that Russian writers are non-Russian is centuries old foreign ancestry, save Gogol who is obviously not an ethnic Great Russian. You also stated explicitly “The time when their ancestors came to Russia is irrelevant to this point. Only peasants were actual ethnic Russians for the most part.”.

    You clearly have a fundamental belief that having any foreign ancestry of any sort, or at having a foreign progenitor, makes you forever a foreigner no matter how assimilated you and your immediate ancestors are.

    >Anon from TN can show you the way. Russia is a state of mind.

    Being German is a state of mind too. What did Prussians, Bavarians, and Low German speakers have in common other than the idea of Germany? Hell, East Germans are genetically Slavic (which of course makes them Wends larping as German). Anyway, I’ll have no part in the brotherhood of nations garbage that he peddles and I know you don’t believe in it either.

    >It wasn’t just some lone Tatar from the 14th century. Most of his ancestors were of non-Russian origin. They were almost all Lithuanian, Belarussian, Ukrainian, Polish. As I wrote, most of the Russian elites were not of Russian ethnic origin. The peasants were real Russians. This makes Russia quite different from Germany, France, Poland, etc.

    I underestimated the proportion of foreign ancestry Dostoevsky had, though the point remains. Unless you can scrounge up evidence that his immediate ancestors were non-Russian, we’re talking centuries old foreign ancestry.

    The major noble families were disproportionally non-Russian, and for a time foreigners dominated the Russian state. A majority of the elite overall however was Russian.

    Noble families were not bound by nationalism. Intermarriage between nobles of different ethnic groups was and is extremely common. Spain was ruled by German Hasburgs for centuries. It continues to be ruled by the French house of Bourbon. Britain is ruled by a German house. Sweden is ruled by a French house. Denmark is ruled by a German house, as is Norway. Many nobles in Poland were of Lithuanian, Rus, or Tatar origin. This is the absolute norm of European royal politics. You would, however, be an imbecile to call Queen Elizabeth a German.

    >I do none of these things. I do insult Sovoks. If you equate Russians with Sovoks than you are the one who insults Russia.

    I fail to understand where you pulled that one from. The idea that Russia is a rootless, deracinated marketplace bound together by common values and ‘actual Russians’ have never achieved anything seems a Sovok idea to me.

    You lack the shrillness of a typical Ukrainian nationalist, but you still propagate the same ideas. You’re clearly anti-Russian, and undermine the cultural, historical, and ethnic legitimacy of Russians all the time. Probably you do this as an amusing past time and a way to pretend to not be an American, but I’ll just take your comments at face value.

    As for melanf’s idiotic statements about Russian peasants, it has no relevance. He has a realistic view of the ethnic origins of Russians, unlike yourself.

    • Replies: @Mikhail
    , @Mitleser
    , @AP
  339. Mikhail says: • Website
    @AP

    Russia is a state of mind.

    As is the US, Germany, Ukraine and a host of other, if not most, or perhaps arguably all countries.

  340. Mikhail says: • Website
    @Adam

    You lack the shrillness of a typical Ukrainian nationalist, but you still propagate the same ideas.

    Sugar coated svidos are the better propaganda option, while not being able to substantively prove some of their talking points.

  341. Mikhail says: • Website

    S0vok holiday in Israel:

    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/30/world/middleeast/israel-novy-god-ashdod.html?action=click&module=News&pgtype=Homepage

    White Russians (at least a good number of them) do new year’s on the old calendar.

  342. @DFH

    Those photos really make you notice the distinctive Slavic nose type

    It’s readily discernible in certain cloud formations, too.

    A refusal to ever question one’s assumptions is also said to enhance one’s ability to spot it.

    • Replies: @DFH
  343. anon[304] • Disclaimer says:

    Maybe OT: After the big brouhaha about pulling US forces from Syria, Donald is now “reconsidering”.

    Nothing new – after peremoga comes always comes zrada, and after zrada always new peremoga, in eternal cycle of life.

    Happy New Year to everyone!

    https://www.foxnews.com/politics/graham-says-i-feel-pretty-good-about-syria-after-lunch-with-trump

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
  344. DFH says:
    @silviosilver

    Thank you, you just made me check another source and Carleton Coon, who conducted extensive measurements, observed the same thing, a snubbed nose among Northern and Eastern Slavs.

  345. @anon

    The Syria withdrawal might improve Russia’s position, but Afghanistan would be saving the empire from its own stupidity.

  346. melanf says:
    @AP

    And yet, randomly looking just at paternal lines of most famous noble authors – every one had foreign origin.

    Let’s check. Here is a list (created by Anatoly Karlin) of famous Russian writers/poetsTake the most famous authors who are on the chart above the line 20: Dostoevsky, Tolstoy, Pushkin, Turgenev, Gogol, Chekhov.

    Dostoevsky was a descendant of boyar Daniel Rtishchev who in the 16th century was a vassal of the Prince of Pinsk (modern Belarus). Daniel Rtishchev was perhaps a descendant of a Tatar aristocrat who migrated to Moscow in the 14th century.

    Gogol is a descendant of Cossacks from Eastern Ukraine

    Tolstoy is an aristocratic family of Russian origin (this family included two great writers-Alexey Konstantinovich Tolstoy and Alexey Nikolaevich Tolstoy, as well as an exceptionally bad writer Leo Tolstoy). The genealogy from a German medieval aristocrat named Indris is completely mythical.

    Pushkin is an aristocratic family of Russian origin. Genealogy from a medieval Prussian aristocrat named Ratsha is completely mythical.

    Turgenev presumably was a descendant of a Tatar aristocrat who migrated to Moscow in the 15th century.

    Chekhov is a descendant of Russian peasants who lived near Voronezh.

    Summary: of the 6 writers/poets 4 have a purely Russian origin at paternal lines, 2 are presumably have Tatars ancestors ( in the 14th and 15th century, that is 400-500 years before the birth of Turgenev and Dostoevsky). Your statement “randomly looking just at paternal lines of most famous noble authors – every one had foreign origin” is just blatant lie

    I further detail answer your low-quality trolling

    • Replies: @anon
    , @AP
  347. С Новым годом!

    З Новим роком!

    Happy New Year!

    Boldog új évet kívánok!

    • Replies: @anon
  348. anon[372] • Disclaimer says:
    @melanf

    Who cares about writers? It is 21th century, no one reads anymore, everyone watches cat and dog videos on yutube.
    Recently, on this forum, it had been proven beyond all reasonable doubt that Hungarian dogs are absolutely superior to all Romanian, Bulgarian, Serbian and other Balkan dogs.
    Now, do you have answer to the most important question of our time, the Russian/Ukrainian dog question? Which one is better?

  349. Mitleser says:
    @songbird

    They probably wish Turkey was part of the EU.

    Doubt it.
    It means power-sharing with Ankara and money-sharing with poorer Turkey which they do not want.
    Same reason why would reject Russia.
    Current customs union deal is optimal for Brüssel.

    • Replies: @songbird
  350. anon[372] • Disclaimer says:
    @reiner Tor

    С Новым годом!

    З Новим роком!

    Happy New Year!

    Boldog új évet kívánok!

    While you are all drunk, our former fellow commenter Glossy just uncovered another deep state conspiracy.

    Yes, it is true! Anatoly Karlin was personally recruited and paid by Soros to overthrow Russian government!

    Stay sober, stay vigilant!

    • LOL: AP, Swarthy Greek
    • Replies: @Dmitry
  351. Mitleser says:
    @Adam

    Being German is a state of mind too. What did Prussians, Bavarians, and Low German speakers have in common other than the idea of Germany

    Correct.
    Historically, Germany is primarily a Kulturnation, though in modern times its identity was more defined by economics.

  352. AP says:
    @Adam

    You clearly have a fundamental belief that having any foreign ancestry of any sort, or at having a foreign progenitor, makes you forever a foreigner no matter how assimilated you and your immediate ancestors are.

    I have clearly pointed out that Russian elites had mostly foreign ancestry, not merely “any foreign ancestry of any sort”. Had your reading comprehension not failed you, you would have understood that. Indeed, this is the difference between a Shakespeare who had a few French ancestors here and there, and a Wrubel, who was mostly Polish, Danish, Tatar, Finnish-German.

    That those elite Russians’ foreign ancestors often came to Russia centuries ago does not change that fact. It was a stratum of non-natives, with new ones added over the generations.

    The major noble families were disproportionally non-Russian, and for a time foreigners dominated the Russian state. A majority of the elite overall however was Russian.

    They were Russified non-Russians in the majority. And this is interesting and makes Russian elites very different form those of most European countries. Prussian Junkers may have had some Polish ancestors here or there, but they were not of primarily non-German descent. Likewise with French,
    Bavarian, etc. elites. It’s an interesting phenomenon.

    And in Russia this was true not only of the ruling family (indeed this is common) but even amongst regular nobles such as Dostoyevsky.

    >I do none of these things. I do insult Sovoks. If you equate Russians with Sovoks than you are the one who insults Russia.

    I fail to understand where you pulled that one from

    The only time I have said anything negative about Russians is when in connection to the Soviet legacy, which has done things such as produce a high abortion rate among them.

    The idea that Russia is a rootless, deracinated marketplace bound together by common values and ‘actual Russians’ have never achieved anything

    On the contrary, the fact that Russian culture has managed to draw in and assimilate many elites of foreign backgrounds is a tribute to its beauty. Dostoyevsky, though not of hardly any actual Russian descent, was perhaps the greatest novelist ever, and a complete patriot of the Russian project, a project fascinatingly largely driven over the centuries by people, such as Dostoyevsky, not of Russian descent. Even the Orthodoxy forced upon the Slavic people of Russia and Ukraine was a project of Rurikid Swedes.

    You lack the shrillness of a typical Ukrainian nationalist, but you still propagate the same ideas.

    Ukrainian nationalists believe their nation is the continuation of Kieven Rus, deemphasize their nation’s Polish heritage, love Bandera the mass-murderer and Khmelytsky who has much in common in him, think Russians are dirty and dumb savages who have contributed little to the world. I propagate none of those things.

  353. AP says:
    @melanf

    “Purely mythical” according to your convenience.

    My observation was that elites were of non-Russian origin. In your post you admit (but pretend it is “mythical) that all of the Russian writers of noble background had non-Russian paternal origins. Dostoyevsky, Tolstoy, Turgenev, Gogol.

    For example Tolstoy “myth”:

    The Tolstoys were a well-known family of old Russian nobility who traced their ancestry to a mythical nobleman named Indris described by Pyotr Tolstoy as arriving “from Nemec, from the lands of Caesar” to Chernigov in 1353 along with his two sons Litvinos (or Litvonis) and Zimonten (or Zigmont) and a druzhina of 3000 people.[7][8] While the word “Nemec” has been long used to describe Germans only, back in the days it was applied to any foreigner who didn’t speak Russian (from the word nemoy meaning mute).[9] Indris was then converted to Eastern Orthodoxy under the name of Leonty and his sons — as Konstantin and Feodor, respectively. Konstantin’s grandson Andrei Kharitonovich was nicknamed Tolstiy (translated as fat) by Vasily II of Moscow after he moved from Chernigov to Moscow

    May not have been a German, but was some sort of non-Russian speaker. So clearly non-Russian.

    Pushkin’s non-Russian origin dates to the 12th century. It is questionable, either way.

    ::::::::::::::::

    of the 6 writers/poets 4 have a purely Russian origin at paternal lines, 2 are presumably have Tatars ancestors ( in the 14th and 15th century, that is 400-500 years before the birth of Turgenev and Dostoevsky)

    As we see above, Tolstoy is of non-Russian paternal origin. So Tolstoy, Dostoyevsky, Turgenev, Gogol – non-Russian paternal origin. Pushkin is questionable.

    Only Chekhov, the son of a Russian commoner, had Russian paternal descent. Exactly as one would expect.

    So either 4/5 (if we discount Pushkin) or 5/5 Russian nobles are of non-Russian paternal origin, only the peasant is of Russian origin. If this is a representative sample than we have either 80% or 100% of Russian elite is of non-Russian origin.

    • Replies: @melanf
  354. AP says:

    Well, Happy New Year to everyone.

    20 years ago I was celebrating the new millenium on Red Square (actually by the Bolshoy, Red Square was crowded). In the USA people were saying that it would be dangerous in Russia due to Y2K – surely the “backward” country wasn’t ready for it. In Russia they were saying I was lucky to be in Russia – Russia wasn’t computerized but the USA would be screwed. Fortunately everyone was wrong. A common pattern 🙂

    • Replies: @AP
  355. AP says:
    @AP

    LOL, I was off by a year.

  356. @AP

    Germans say Europe ends at the Elbe.

    Konrad Adenauer said that, and that was due to his anti-Prussian Rhineland Catholicism, that is intra-German conflicts. It wasn’t a consensus view back then and it isn’t now.
    There’s of course a long tradition of highly negative (and during the Nazi era extremely racist) German perceptions of Eastern Europe and Russia, though imo these weren’t the only strains (even among the Nazis there were somewhat different views how to view and treat Russians, though the views of Hitler and Himmler remained dominant).

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
  357. @German_reader

    Many Nazi racial theorists were surprised at the number of blue-eyed blondes in Russia and Poland, and thought that they should be assimilated rather than exterminated.

  358. @reiner Tor

    I recently listened to parts of Himmler’s Posen speech (which is actually much more about Slavs and matters in the Reich than about Jews) where he argues exactly against such views, emphasizing instead the alleged Hunnish and Mongol character of many Slavs (though he also speaks of “racially valuable” Slavs whose children need to be taken away). He also argues against the idea that Russia could only be defeated with the help of Russians.
    So obviously there was some internal discussion and dissension even among the Nazi elite (though the basic parameters of debate of course remained Nordicist-racist).

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    , @Mikhail
  359. songbird says:
    @Mitleser

    On one side, an ambition to join the EU. On the other, the Star and Crescent and two planes (loosley suggestive of 9/11). Or perhaps, it suggests emigration. I take it that it is not a circulating coin – a pity.

    In the US, we often get Canadian coins slipped into our change. Once, my brother even got one from the UAE or that vicinity. I think it would be good if Europeans had a few Turkish coins slipped in – to warn them. Preferably, something that says “new lira” on it.

    I used to like the idiosyncrasies of European money before the EU was introduced. Some countries had portraits of authors, artists, and poets. In contrast, I believe all Turkish money has Atatürk on it. No wonder he has such a cult of personality there.

    • Replies: @German_reader
    , @songbird
  360. @songbird

    No wonder he has such a cult of personality there.

    I suppose that’s somewhat de-emphasized nowadays though. Erdogan and his ilk seem to be more into Ottoman sultans as models.

    • Replies: @songbird
  361. songbird says:
    @songbird

    Sorry, I mean to type “before the Euro was introduced.”

  362. @German_reader

    There was great animosity between the Wartheland Gauleiter Arthur Greiser and the Danzig-Westpreußen Gauleiter Albert Forster, the latter supporting mass assimilation of those willing to sign up for Germanization (and extermination or deportation and ethnic cleansing for those who refused). Himmler supported Greiser, but Hitler refused to intervene, despite generally agreeing with Himmler and Greiser. Forster famously said that he wouldn’t talk about race if he looked like Himmler.

    • Replies: @German_reader
  363. @reiner Tor

    There was great animosity between the Wartheland Gauleiter Arthur Greiser and the Danzig-Westpreußen Gauleiter Albert Forster

    I know, it’s interesting that there were somewhat different approaches in the different occupied parts of Poland.
    The Posen speech I mentioned is pretty interesting, there’s lots in it about Himler’s views about Slavs in general and Russians in particular (e.g. he claims Slavs have a natural tendency to conspire – intrigieren – against their rulers and therefore need to be closely supervised – somewhat bizarrely, he tries to prove that by reference to the Soviet Union, where he claims every small village has dozens of NKVD informers; also some really explicitly racist stuff, like the need to take “racially valuable” Slavic children away from their parents, or how Slavic men in the Reich who have had sexual relationships with German women need to be executed or sent to concentration camps).
    It’s really noticeable though what a shit mind Himmler had, his entire world view seems to have been formed not least by reading crappy historical novels about Germanic heroes.

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
    , @Mikhail
  364. songbird says:
    @German_reader

    Islam is a pretty powerful political force by its very nature, even above most other religions. Still, I’m not sure, the Ottoman dynasty can fit into a foundational niche as neatly as Atatürk.

    As to Turkey’s de-secularization – I welcome it. There aren’t really any Christian minorities to be hurt there, anymore. Turkey should be kept apart from Europe, and I think it will help.

    • Replies: @German_reader
  365. @reiner Tor

    Many Nazi racial theorists were surprised at the number of blue-eyed blondes in Russia and Poland, and thought that they should be assimilated rather than exterminated.

    From Madison Grant’s The Passing of the Great Race (1916):

    • Replies: @DFH
    , @songbird
  366. @songbird

    Turkey should be kept apart from Europe, and I think it will help.

    I tend to agree, and tbh Kemalist Turkey wasn’t great either, throughout its entire history non-Sunni minorities were treated pretty badly. It’s just unfortunate that due to the Turkish diaspora in Europe one still has to pretend that Turkey is somewhow our friend and ally and that bad relations are just some temporary misunderstanding, which is only the fault of “dictator” Erdogan (and not the millions of Turks who support him and his party).

  367. DFH says:
    @Hyperborean

    Who could fail to recognise the brilliance and myriad accomplishments of the great Nordic Latvian race, espcially in comparison with the feeble and frankly retarded culture of the central Italians and Provençals?

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
  368. @German_reader

    It’s really noticeable though what a shit mind Himmler had, his entire world view seems to have been formed not least by reading crappy historical novels about Germanic heroes.

    IIRC, Rosenberg was obsessed about the origins of ancient Germanics and believed in an Aryan Atlantis.

    It is somewhat amusing to read about things like Ariosophy and the Thule Society.

  369. songbird says:
    @Hyperborean

    Growing up, the most Aryan-looking guy I knew had some sort of Slavic or Polish name. He was also a genius – easily the smartest guy in the class.

  370. @DFH

    Who could fail to recognise the brilliance and myriad accomplishments of the great Nordic Latvian race, espcially in comparison with the feeble and frankly retarded culture of the central Italians and Provençals?

    Well, depending on who you ask, Latvians did briefly carve out a great Eurasian empire which almost conquered Europe. 🙂

    • LOL: reiner Tor
    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  371. Dmitry says:
    @anon

    He’s a member of an organization that wants to overthrow the Russian government

    I’m guessing they believe it is some Vasserman/Kholmogorov (?) related operation to overthrow the government, install Karlin to the throne- from where he would abolish Victory Day, introduce Indian food to schools, and teach the children about the political competence of Nicholas II, or reform the maths syllabus so to learn about the statistical rigor of Solzhenitsyn, etc?

  372. @Hyperborean

    Yea, and then out of respect for Latvian greatness Germans built them Riga and other cities. Eventually they even allowed Latvians to live in those cities.

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
  373. @AnonFromTN

    Yea, and then out of respect for Latvian greatness Germans built them Riga and other cities. Eventually they even allowed Latvians to live in those cities.

    It was clearly a joke…

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  374. Dmitry says:
    @AnonFromTN

    I have read a few of Nabokov’s books and could only read a few pages of some – but two books he wrote about the experience of being an immigrant (True Life of Sebastian Knight, Podvig), I found interesting, unusual, and would recommend them a lot, especially if you know any of the cities he writes about in these books.

  375. melanf says:
    @AP

    “Purely mythical” according to your convenience.

    Mythical according to historians. Quote (from Wikipedia?) which you yourself posted “The Tolstoys were a well-known family of old Russian nobility who traced their ancestry to a mythical nobleman named Indris“.
    Ask German Reader if there are known cases of resettlement of German aristocrats in Russia in the 12-14 century (with a change of religion), and whether the names of Indris and Ratha are known among the German aristocracy.

    As we see above, Tolstoy is of non-Russian paternal origin. So Tolstoy, Dostoyevsky, Turgenev, Gogol – non-Russian paternal origin.

    Well, great,
    let us analyze the case of the Tolstoy family. The only source about the Indris ( i.e. about German origin of the Tolstoy family) is the genealogy which was recorded (or invented) by count Peter Andreevich Tolstoy (1645 — 1729).

    In this genealogy Peter Tolstoy claimed that the ancestor of the Tolstoy family was Indris, a German from the land of Kaiser (that is, from the German Empire ), who migrated in 1353 with two sons and three thousand warriors (!) in Chernigov. This Indris had army of three thousand vassals, that is, was one of the greatest feudal lords of his era. However, he is completely unknown in sources from the 14th century, and appears only in genealogy composed 400 years later.

    I suggest the following: let German Reader decide – are the information about Indris reliable, or it is fiction created in order to make the Tolstoy family more ancient and more noble. This will be a constructive way to resolve this issue. If instead you will continue to post duckspeaks (“As we see above, Tolstoy is of non-Russian paternal origin“), such discussion in the style of schoolboys is not interesting to me.

  376. @melanf

    I can tell you one thing for sure: at some point in time, all Tolstoy’s ancestors were apes.

  377. @Hyperborean

    How dare you call Latvian greatness a joke? As they say in Russia, you can’t even bomb Latvia: it is so small, you’d miss. A formidable country, invincible. It does not matter that they can’t afford tanks, they have bikes instead.

    • Replies: @German_reader
  378. @AnonFromTN

    It was a joke about AK’s “Latvians are responsible for Soviet communism” theory.
    Don’t be so bloody dense.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  379. @melanf

    I’m not knowledgeable about the issue, but yes, I find it hard to believe that German aristocrats migrated to Russia in the 13th and 14th centuries in any significant number; it’s certainly nothing I’ve ever read in German historiography or medieval sources. It does sound made up (the “3000 vassals” certainly is; “Indris” and “Ratha” also seems pretty weird).
    I always thought the influx of Western experts and aristocrats to Russia came much later anyway, especially from the time of Peter the Great, as part of Peter’s “modernization” programme. Maybe inventing Western family origins became fashionable for aristocrats then?

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
  380. @German_reader

    I am not dense, I just respond to a joke with further banter. It’s uncharitable to offend Latvians, though, so we should stop.

  381. @German_reader

    In addition to Peter importing loads of Western experts, as a result of the Treaty of Nystad the Baltic Germans became part of the Russian Empire. They played a very prominent role for the rest of the Empire.

  382. MarkinPNW says:
    @German_reader

    Well, the Russian Faith website, which promotes the Russian Orthodox faith, has featured articles about families moving to Russia from the west specifically, in part, at least, to be able to homeschool their children “in the Faith”.

  383. Mikhail says: • Website
    @German_reader

    I recently listened to parts of Himmler’s Posen speech (which is actually much more about Slavs and matters in the Reich than about Jews) where he argues exactly against such views, emphasizing instead the alleged Hunnish and Mongol character of many Slavs (though he also speaks of “racially valuable” Slavs whose children need to be taken away). He also argues against the idea that Russia could only be defeated with the help of Russians.

    Relates back to the note I made earlier at this thread about a US aired documentary saying that some Nazis realized that German and other perceived Aryan numbers alone wouldn’t be enough to successfully settle in the east. To some extent what Himmler said on this matter happened.

    After being captured by the Nazi, Vlasov said that Russia could only be defeated by Russians – something that infuriated some of the Nazi hierarchy (wouldn’t be surprised if one of them was Himmler). I sense that Himmler made that comment after that statement from Vlasov and that it was said when the tide of the war changed against the Nazis.

    In Goebbels’ diary, he makes mention of how the Nazis misused Vlasov and other captured Russians, who were interested in creating a strong non-Communist Russia – a matter related to how the likes of Czechia, Russia, Serbia and Poland weren’t accorded a nation state status by the Nazis, unlike Croatia, Romania, Hungary, Bulgaria and Slovakia.

    In WW I, the Germans made use of Lenin to serve German interests. In WW II, Nazi bigotry hindered a similar scenario with Vlasov.

    • Replies: @German_reader
  384. Mikhail says: • Website
    @German_reader

    It’s really noticeable though what a shit mind Himmler had, his entire world view seems to have been formed not least by reading crappy historical novels about Germanic heroes.

    On that score, Himmler and Rosenberg appear to be low grade when compared to Goebbels and Goering.

  385. AP says:
    @melanf

    You conveniently didn’t post other parts. Full wiki citation. I bolded the parts you removed:

    The Tolstoys were a well-known family of old Russian nobility who traced their ancestry to a mythical nobleman named Indris described by Pyotr Tolstoy as arriving “from Nemec, from the lands of Caesar” to Chernigov in 1353 along with his two sons Litvinos (or Litvonis) and Zimonten (or Zigmont) and a druzhina of 3000 people.[7][8] While the word “Nemec” has been long used to describe Germans only, back in the days it was applied to any foreigner who didn’t speak Russian (from the word nemoy meaning mute).[9] Indris was then converted to Eastern Orthodoxy under the name of Leonty and his sons — as Konstantin and Feodor, respectively. Konstantin’s grandson Andrei Kharitonovich was nicknamed Tolstiy (translated as fat) by Vasily II of Moscow after he moved from Chernigov to Moscow.[7][8]

    :::::::::::::::

    So while German origin is mythical, non-Russian origin of Tolstoy family is very likely.

  386. @Mikhail

    I sense that Himmler made that comment after that statement from Vlasov

    Yes, actually he explicitly referred to Vlasov in that speech.

  387. AP says:
    @melanf

    Tolstoy’s Haplogroup I1 is rare in Russia (other than Novgorod region, settled by Scandinavians), common in Scandinavia:

    https://www.eupedia.com/genetics/famous_y-dna_by_haplogroup.shtml

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    , @melanf
  388. @AP

    What’s the point of all these empty squabbles? Whatever their genetic origins, Tolstoy, as well as Dostoyevsky, Pushkin, Lermontov, Gogol, Bulgakov, Esenin, Chekhov, Mandelshtam, and many others can only exist as an integral part of Russian literature. There is no literary background in any language of their presumed or real ancestors where any of them could have appeared. That’s exactly why they wrote in Russian, not in other languages.

    • Agree: AP
    • Replies: @Seraphim
  389. songbird says:
    @Philip Owen

    MLK did use the phrase, and we all know he was a plagiarist.

  390. Seraphim says:
    @AnonFromTN

    One should notice that, by and large, the ‘non-native’ who have been integrated in the Russian life, have converted to Orthodoxy, which shaped the Russian ‘state of mind’ and made Russia a great nation. And that ‘non-native’ cultured aristocracy substantially contributed in making Russia a great nation, the scarecrow of the “West” (along with ‘peasants’ like Makar Dolgoruki, the humble, but steadfast Russian Christian, not Stenka Razin or the Narodniks), by believing that, as Dostoevsky put in the mouth of his heroes: “if it does not believe that it alone is able and called to resurrect and save everyone with its truth, then it at once it ceases to be a great nation and at once turns into ethnographic material” (Rodnovery Folklorismus Raskol!).

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    , @AP
  391. @Seraphim

    Many did, some did not (e.g., Karl Baer, who discovered the oocyte, never did, while working in the Russian Academy of sciences). Sorry to disappoint even more, Russian Orthodox church excommunicated Leo Tolstoy. This did not make him any less outstanding writer, this only made smaller the church.
    Not to mention that traditional Russian Orthodox church (Starovery = old believers) were persecuted by the official church.

  392. Seraphim says:

    Some did not. Of course what matters are the ones who did.

    Karl Baer was and remained all his life a ‘visiting professor’ in Russia and there are no indications that he became ‘russified’ in any way. He is not relevant in the same way as Catherine, or Barclay de Tolly, or Witte.

    Leo Tolstoy, who fancied himself a vegetarian and teetotaler prophet (which shows that he was rather mentally deranged) who created his own sect whose ‘sacred scripture’ was “The Gospel according to Tolstoy” (directly inspired by Proudhonian anarchism – OTOH, his obvious contacts with Masonry suggest another source), excommunicated himself, something that he not only did not deny, but even resolutely emphasized at every convenient opportunity: “It is perfectly justifiable that I have renounced the Church that calls itself Orthodox… I renounce all the sacraments… I have truly renounced the Church, I have stopped fulfilling its rites, and I have written in my will to my close ones that they should not allow any clergymen from the Church near me when I will be dying…”.

    The Church only took notice of his apostasy and in fact appealed for his repentance, which was not forthcoming. There were no “anathemas or curses” pronounced either before or after his death and his writings were not condemned, as it is implied.

    “A writer well known to the world, Russian by birth, Orthodox by baptism and education, Count Tolstoy, under the seduction of his intellectual pride, has insolently risen against the Lord and His Christ and against His holy heritage, and has publicly, in the sight of all men, repudiated the Orthodox Mother Church, which reared and educated him, and has devoted his literary activity, and the talent given to him by God, to disseminating among the people teachings repugnant to Christ and the Church, and to destroying in the minds and hearts of men their national faith, the Orthodox faith, which has been confirmed by the universe, and in which our forefathers lived and were saved, and to which till now Holy Russia has held and in which it has been strong.
    Therefore the Church does not reckon him as its member, and cannot so reckon him, until he repents and resumes his communion with her. To this we bear witness to-day before the whole Church, for the confirmation of the faithful and the reproof of those who have gone astray, especially for the fresh reproof of Count Tolstoy himself. Many of those near to him, retaining their faith, reflect with sorrow that he, at the end of his days, remains without faith in God and in our Lord and Saviour, having rejected the blessings and prayers of the Church and all communion with her”.

    What made ‘smaller’ the Church was the savage persecution to which all those imbued with ‘tolstoyism’, who saw in him “the mirror of the Russian Revolution” (whose propagandist he actually was), submitted her.

    Starovery were ‘the traditional Russian Orthodox Church’ only in their own imagination and that of the liberalo-narodnik-bolshevik-tolstoyan revolutionaries (and of your ‘Rodnovery’ friends). The traditional Russian Orthodox Church was always the ‘official’ one.

    • Replies: @Seraphim
  393. Seraphim says:
    @Seraphim

    @Catherine, or Barclay de Tolly, or Witte.

    You may add Stalin to the list!
    Actually, Witte’s wife was a converted Jewess.

  394. melanf says:
    @AP

    Tolstoy’s Haplogroup I1 is rare in Russia (other than Novgorod region, settled by Scandinavians), common in Scandinavia:

    Really low quality post.

    Here is more accurate data:
    frequency distributions of haplogroup I1
    Vologda oblast 18 %
    Ryazan region 14 %
    Penza region 11 %
    Ivanovo region 10 %
    Tambov region 10 %

    Ryazan, Penza ,Ivanovo ,Tambov – this all South Russia

    And you decide on your version: the progenitor of the Tolstoy famila – German Indris from the land of Kaiser, or unknown Scandinavian?

    • Replies: @AP
  395. @Thorfinnsson

    Photovoltaic cells are semiconductors and are thus subject to the same diminishing returns we’re now observing in integrated circuits.

    I do not understand this statement. What ‘diminishing returns’ are we getting from integrated circuits??

    They’re also geographically limited, and even if room temperature superconductors are invented (dubious) transmission will still cost money (capex, depreciation).

    Huge solar power assemblies in western China are transmitting power via 1.1million-volt lines to eastern China. So much for the impossibility of upping the voltage. Yes, of course transmission is not 100% efficient, it never will be, even with room-temperature superconductors, if and when they are invented.

    There’s thus a ceiling on solar marketshare. We may even be past the rational ceiling in many markets owing to the Green religion. There is no rational reason to put solar panels in Germany for instance, yet it is one of the world’s largest solar producers.

    Getting power from the sun is an attractive idea, particularly if, as is often the case, the power can be used locally, by e.g. an isolated house, an exhibition hall, a street lamp, a road sign There is an enormous amound of research being done on storage batteries and big advances have already been made in that field. With the push for electric cars, it is pretty certain that more advances will be made in the field of batteries in the near future.

    Japan, another place where solar panels have no place and ought to be forbidden by law, is now one of the fastest growing markets. This is driven by atomophobia.

    And who can blame them for that? When solar power plants are destroyed by an earthquake or a tsunami it is much easier to clean up the mess than Fukushima has been and still is.

    Solar power being intermittent, it must also be paired with other forms of energy generation (generally natural gas) and/or storage (hydro most efficient).

    No longer true, see above. In any case, there are other sources of energy. It is not as though the advocates of alternative sources of energy insist on using only one, or that grids do not exist. Come to that fossil-powered and atom-powered power stations have down time too.

  396. AP says:
    @melanf

    And you decide on your version: the progenitor of the Tolstoy famila – German Indris from the land of Kaiser, or unknown Scandinavian?

    For the second time you chose to ignore that foreigner was likely even if German as specific type of foreigner was not. And it is probably not a coincidence that Tolstoy haplogroup is much more common outside Russia – in Scandinavia – than it is in Russia:

    The Tolstoys were a well-known family of old Russian nobility who traced their ancestry to a mythical nobleman named Indris described by Pyotr Tolstoy as arriving “from Nemec, from the lands of Caesar” to Chernigov in 1353 along with his two sons Litvinos (or Litvonis) and Zimonten (or Zigmont) and a druzhina of 3000 people.[7][8] While the word “Nemec” has been long used to describe Germans only, back in the days it was applied to any foreigner who didn’t speak Russian (from the word nemoy meaning mute).[9] Indris was then converted to Eastern Orthodoxy under the name of Leonty and his sons — as Konstantin and Feodor, respectively. Konstantin’s grandson Andrei Kharitonovich was nicknamed Tolstiy (translated as fat) by Vasily II of Moscow after he moved from Chernigov to Moscow.[7][8]

    • Replies: @melanf
    , @melanf
  397. AP says:
    @Seraphim

    One should notice that, by and large, the ‘non-native’ who have been integrated in the Russian life, have converted to Orthodoxy, which shaped the Russian ‘state of mind’ and made Russia a great nation.

    Yes. This is even true of people like Nicholas II’s Alexandra.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  398. melanf says:
    @AP

    And why are you copying Wikipedia? The names of Indras, Litvinos and Zimonten not exist (there is no ethnic group in Europe which has such names. Such names do not have Lithuanians, Germans, Scandinavians, Tatars,…). The foreign feudal Lord did not move to Chernigov in 1353 (otherwise it would have been mentioned in the Chronicles). This whole story is entirely fiction of the 17th century, and an analogue of the tales about Brutus the Trojan and the fairy Melusina.

    All that is known is that the most ancient non-mythical ancestors of Tolstoy family were Russian. Hypothetically, among the more ancient (and completely unknown) ancestors Tolstoy family could be foreigners (but of course not the owners of the fantastic name Indris). Well, among the ancestors of Shakespeare (and also among the ancestors of any European writer/poet) could be foreigners too, with the same probability .

  399. @AP

    “It wasn’t just some lone Tatar from the 14th century. Most of his ancestors were of non-Russian origin. They were almost all Lithuanian, Belarussian, Ukrainian, Polish. As I wrote, most of the Russian elites were not of Russian ethnic origin. The peasants were real Russians. This makes Russia quite different from Germany, France, Poland, etc.”
    Is this the case for the Russian elite today? What about Ukraine’s elite, are they too of mostly foreign descent both historically aswell as presently?

    • Replies: @Seraphim
    , @AP
  400. Seraphim says:
    @Rattus Norwegius

    In the first ‘constitution of Ukraine’, the ‘Pacts and Constitutions of Rights and Freedoms of the Zaporizhian Host’ (or ‘The Bendery Constitution’) written by Pylip Orlyk in 1710, it is stated emphatically that ‘the valiant and ancient Cossack people, formerly called Khazar, was at first exalted by immortal glory, spacious territory, and heroic exploits which inspired fear both at sea and on land not only among neighbouring peoples but even in the Eastern Empire, so much so that the Eastern emperor, wishing to make lasting peace with it, joined his son in matrimony to the daughter of the Khagan, that is to say, the Cossack ­prince….’
    The mystery of the Khazars solved!

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    , @AP
  401. melanf says:
    @AP

    It wasn’t just some lone Tatar from the 14th century. Most of his ancestors were of non-Russian origin.

    It’s not an exaggeration, it’s just nonsense. From your list: 462 noble families (in 17 centure) of Russian origin, 156 of foreign (tatar) origin (by paternal line). Of course “Belarussian, Ukrainian” did not exist in the middle ages as separate ethnic groups, and natives of the principalities in the territory of modern Ukraine and Belarus were not “foreigners”. Additionally, the elite is constantly changing at the expense of the commoners. “By the end of the Northern war among the officers of the Russian army, about 14 % came from non-nobles (any officer automatically became a nobleman). In 1816, nobles who were sons of non-nobles accounted for 44% of the total nobility of the Empire
    Y. M. Lotman “Conversations about Russian culture”

    • Replies: @AP
  402. Mr. Hack says:
    @Seraphim

    An auspicious start to the ethnogenesis of the Ukrainian people, when considering that neighboring peoples like the Vlachs were still just pastoral sheepherders in the Balkan hillside?…

  403. @Thorfinnsson

    Nuclear fusion has been 10 years away now for the past 50 years.

    As I understand it, we are in the middle of surpassing break even (energy input = energy output). The ITER project in France, to be finished in the 20ties, is going to surpass break even, i.e. produce more energy than consume, but not enough to be economically viable.

    Early overoptimism in the 50ties was supposedely a result of oversimplified theoretical considerations (due to limited computing power, among other reasons), which lead to an underestimation of heat losses caused by turbulences in the plasma, which result in turn from the high temperature gradient.

    The question is now mainly about economic viability. Fussion-fission hybrid reactors are also an underexplored possibility that could be a bridge to a fussion based future.

  404. @AP

    In case of Alexandra it’s a classical “Paris is worth a mass” thing. Just shows how much royals valued power and how cynical they were about gods of all stripes.
    Not to mention that Alexandra did more to run Russian Empire into the ground than even Nicholas II.

    • Replies: @Seraphim
    , @AP
  405. Seraphim says:
    @AnonFromTN

    And you see now the dumb Russians making her and Nikki and their children saints!

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  406. @Seraphim

    Children weren’t guilty of anything. Saints or not, they were murder victims. Same about servants.

    Alexandra and Nikki amply deserved what they’ve got. They brought a great Empire to ruin. Except they should have been tried first, convicted, and then executed.

    BTW, it is Russian Orthodox church that made them saints. Most Russians (including those that go to church on Sundays) don’t believe in anything.

    • Agree: melanf, Swarthy Greek
    • Replies: @Seraphim
    , @songbird
  407. AP says:
    @Seraphim

    This says nothing about Cossack elite descent, it just means that Cossacks were Poles (not in the modern ethnic sense, but in the 17th century sense). Polish nobles were into Sarmatism – the idea that they were descendants of Sarmatians, while their peasants were Slavs, natural servants. Cossacks were emphasizing that they were the peers of Polish nobles.

  408. AP says:
    @AnonFromTN

    In case of Alexandra it’s a classical “Paris is worth a mass” thing.

    By contemporary accounts from those who knew her, Alexandra was a very sincere, zealous convert, and a more devout Orthodox Christian than most of the people she was mixing with.

    Not to mention that Alexandra did more to run Russian Empire into the ground than even Nicholas II.

    Ugly rumors were not her fault; the worst she can be blamed for is not playing the PR game effectively.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  409. AP says:
    @Rattus Norwegius

    Is this the case for the Russian elite today? What about Ukraine’s elite, are they too of mostly foreign descent both historically aswell as presently?

    Probably under Khrushchev was the first time in history when the elite in Russia was of Russian ethnic (thus peasant) descent. Jews broke through in the 1990s but, although they are still overrepresented, ethnic Russians are on top today (though some Russian nationalists claim that Putin is a Jewish tool).

    Historically Ukraine had a native eastern-Slavic elite, with a significant Polish admixture and some Romanian elements. Main local figures in/from Ukraine such as Khmelnytsky or Mazepa were not of foreign descent. Gogol had a single Polish grandparent. This probably explains, in part, why the Ukrainian literary language is more natural and complex than Russian.* The Russian language was the project of an elite who were not of Russian origin.

    In post-Soviet times, in Ukraine it was a mix of Ukrainians and Jews until Yanukovich, when it was Russians and Jews. Post-Maidan the Ukrainians kicked out the Russians and it is back to Ukrainians and Jews. There are regional differences in Ukraine. The elites in the west are all Ukrainians.

    *This does not make it better of course. Russian, not Ukrainian, produced perhaps the world’s greatest prose literature. Though Ukrainian folk songs are much prettier than Russian ones.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  410. @AP

    I don’t mean Rasputin. That’s unsubstantiated rumors.

    After Stolypin was assassinated, Russian Empire had virtually no decent PMs or ministers. Many contemporaries claimed that quite a few of the thieving crooks who became ministers in the last years of the Empire were her choices. Dismal governance brought the Empire down, not the war and not the Bolsheviks (who actually missed the February revolution, drinking beer in Europe, and were sent back by Germans in the hopes that they will undermine Russia).

    Alexandra was a very sincere, zealous convert, and a more devout Orthodox Christian than most of the people she was mixing with

    I believe that. Most of the people Russian royal family was mixing with were crooks who only believed in lining their pockets. That played key role in the downfall of the Empire. Interestingly, the greed of the elites later brought down the USSR, and now is bringing down Ukraine, Moldova, and a few other post-Soviet republics.

    • Replies: @Seraphim
  411. @AP

    Ukrainian literary language is more natural and complex than Russian

    Must be sarcasm. It is uncharitable to tease the handicapped.

    • Replies: @AP
  412. AP says:
    @melanf

    From your list: 462 noble families (in 17 centure) of Russian origin, 156 of foreign (tatar) origin (by paternal line).

    It’s Vernadsky’s list, not mine. And you forgot the numbers. I will remind you:

    Verndasky had a survey of 17th century Russian noble families. The exact origins of the families surveyed were: 229 of Western European (including German) origin, 223 of Polish and Lithuanian origin (this number included Ruthenian nobility), 156 of Tatar and other Oriental origin, 168 families belonged to the House of Rurik and 42 were of unspecified “Russian” origin.

    So only 42 Russian noble families of Russian origin.

    Of course “Belarussian, Ukrainian” did not exist in the middle ages as separate ethnic groups, and natives of the principalities in the territory of modern Ukraine and Belarus were not “foreigners”

    They did and they were. The early 16th century Volhynian Chronicle (1520s IIRC) for example described Ruthenians from their lands as “Rus” and people we now call Russians as Muscovites, not Rus. Russians/Muscovites called themselves Rus but Ruthenians from Belarus or Ukraine as Lithuanians. By the 16th century Russia and Ukraine/Belarus had been apart longer than England and the USA, and experienced much more divergent linguistic and cultural influences.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    , @melanf
  413. Seraphim says:
    @AnonFromTN

    Wasn’t the onrush of crooks, thieves, at all levels of governance the result of the first experiment at the western style liberal ‘democracy’ made in Russia? Duma? What was the Tsar’s guilt? That he listen to the ‘people’? (it was a mistake, of course). But what was Alexandra’s guilt? Not good at PR? Bernays had not started his career yet.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  414. Seraphim says:
    @AnonFromTN

    @Most Russians (including those that go to church on Sundays) don’t believe in anything.

    That immediately brought to mind the famous Mark Twain’s short story “Journalism in Tennessee”. It is still alive.

  415. AP says:
    @AnonFromTN

    I’ll quote from a Ukrainian with a background in linguistics:

    Compared to Ukrainian, Russian is a poor and underdeveloped language from every linguistic point of reference, particularly in terms of its vocabulary and grammar. It’s understandable, as modern Russian, from the historic perspective, is a very young and largely artificially created language, a sort of Esperanto; and it hasn’t had enough time, unlike Ukrainian, to develop the variety of linguistic forms and shortcuts that emerge only when a language is used naturally and for a long period of time by common people communicating with one another daily , rather than via being concocted in an ivory tower. As a result, there’re thousands of Ukrainian shortcut adverbs (e.g.: торік, чимдуж, etc.) that can be expressed in Russian only by using a combination of three separate words. Likewise, Ukrainian has three single-word superlative degrees, while Russian has only one…Ukrainian has single-word forms of Future Imperfect (e.g. матиму, матимемо, матимеш, матиме, матимуть) completely absent from Russian. Ukrainian has the Plus Quam Perfectum tense (e.g. він почав був читати, та його зупинили); Russian doesn’t. And the list goes on and on.

    Another example: “the single-word Future Imperfect (майбутній час недоконаного виду) that is absent from Russian where it can be formed only with the Future form of the auxiliary verb “to be”. E.g. “We will live” in Russian can be formed only as “Мы будем жить”, whereas in Ukrainian, both as “Ми житимемо” (one word for “will live”) and “Ми будемо жити” (“to be” in the Future + Infinitive). Another tense Russian doesn’t have is Plus Quam Perfectum (Past Perfect in English) called in Ukrainian “давноминулий час” and indicating an action finished before some moment in the past, e.g. “Я був читав”.

    While in U, all of the above forms were present in common everyday speech in the 1700′s (that’s the speech and vocabulary Kotliarevsky used to write “The Aeneid” published in 1798), R at the time was a mere rudiment of what it has become after Pushkin and is today.

    I don’t completely agree with what he has written. Words like “poor” are unnecessarily pejorative and “esperanto” is much too extreme.

    But the basic premise is correct. Ukrainian was created by and based upon the works of people like Shevchenko, a Ukrainian peasant-serf or Kotliarevsky, a nobleman-Cossack officer who lived out in the Ukrainian countryside. The elites who created the Russian language often spoke French since childhood, were themselves of largely foreign origins, and had a more Romantic rather than natural attachment to the commoners whom they ruled and whose language served as the basis for the literary one. Thus, the Russian language is simpler in grammar and full of Church Slavonic and to a lesser extent French words.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  416. Dmitry says:
    @AP

    Your argument might be a stronger, if you could elaborate an actual family tree of your examples.

    This is melanf’s point – that it was very common for elite families to be proud of their origin from another nationality. But how large is this component in the family?

    For example, Rachmaninov family was proud of descent from a Royal Moldovan family.

    But to what extent is he actually Moldovan/Romanian by nationality? To the same extent as Elizabeth Warren is Cherokee? Or is it more significant as a proportion? Well, if there is analysis of his family tree this would actually be determined.

    Lermontov is famously descended from nobility of Scotland. But to what proportion is blood from Scotland, an actual component of his ancestry?

    Nabokov family is descended from the Tatar Prince. But how much Tatar blood is present in this Nabokov family, by the end of 19th century? And how much more blood Nabokov family would have, just of Russian peasants…

    Anna Akhmatova’s family, were direct descendants of Genghis Khan. But how much Mongolian blood was there still in her family, by the end of 19th century?

    Boris Pasternak says they are descendants of Isaac Abarbanel – but to what extent is this actually true and not mythology?

    Pushkin – we know was descendant of an Ethiopian Prince. But we also know this was only 12,5% of Pushkin’s ancestry was Ethiopian.

    In this epoch, it was lot of prestige for the elite to be descended from famous and exotic ancestors. So often families, which actually had quite unglamorous and boring peasant origin, could retrospectively exaggerate about very distant ancestors.

    • Replies: @AP
    , @melanf
  417. songbird says:
    @AnonFromTN

    I’d call myself a hereditarian. I’m not a particular fan of monarchy either – I don’t think its record is very good. Still, I have some sympathy for royals – even Russian royals. (But perhaps not much for the Kaiser.)

    Most of them had pretty isolated/weird childhoods. Regression towards the mean probably means most had pretty average mental faculties. How well could an average person rule a country as big as Russia, at that time, under a very autocratic system? His father set his example. He saw his grandfather with his leg blown off and leaking blood, when he was just a boy.

    How well would any other of Europe’s monarchies have handled the situation? Not very well at all, if you ask me. What about current pols? Again, not very well.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    , @AP
  418. @AP

    Funny. Even funnier because it is typical for Ukies.

    Taking just one example:
    “We will live” in Russian can be formed only as “Мы будем жить”
    Is it an optical illusion, or is there the same number of words expressing this in Russian and English? I guess, compared to Ukrainian, English is also an underdeveloped language. LOL

    You also forgot to mention that Chukcha language has many times more words for different kinds of snow than Russian. What’s more, Kazakh language has many times more words for horses. Touché!

    • Replies: @AP
    , @reiner Tor
  419. @Seraphim

    You can argue that. However, if you are into cause-and-effect, you have to remember that that first failed attempt at “democracy” (Duma) was the result of 1905-07 revolution (barely suppressed by the tsar). That revolution, in its turn, was the result of a humiliating defeat in the war with Japan. That defeat, in its turn, was the result of supplying Russian fleet with defective shells, which hit Japanese ships at Tsushima battle just fine, but did not explode. That was the result of crooks and thieves supplying Russian Navy and paying procurement officials kickbacks. Now we have come full circle. So, what came first, the chicken or the egg?

    • Replies: @Seraphim
  420. @songbird

    I have no doubt one can find extenuating circumstances. Still, the fact that Nikki presided over disintegration of a great Empire and the end of Romanov dynasty that lasted 300 years remains. Fact is, he was a worse ruler than even his father, not to mention his more illustrious ancestors (after all, Peter and Katherine are called “the great” for a reason). On Alexander I watch Russia smeared “invincible” Napoleon over the wall. The country on Nikki’s watch suffered a humiliating defeat at the hands of Japan, a second-rate power, all because of defective shells supplied Russian Navy.

    As to current pols, if you mean today’s Western “leaders”, they are all as inept and pathetic as Nikki. Looking at May, Macron, or Merkel one can only feel disgust (pity, if you are very charitable). That’s why Putin and Xi look so great. But in not too distant past Europe had leaders worth to be called that: Churchill, De Gaulle, Kohl, etc.

    • Replies: @AP
    , @Mikhail
  421. AP says:
    @Dmitry

    Your argument might be a stronger, if you could elaborate an actual family tree of your examples.

    I used paternal origin because that is very easy (historians record paternal origins of famous names but if the mother or grandmother is from some obscure family origins might not be available) and provides a representative sample. After all, why should the paternal origin be different from the other ones? So if 4/5 noble writers had paternal origin of foreign nature then probably about 80% of Russian elite families in general have foreign origins (even if this is from centuries earlier). Indeed, Vernadsky’s estimate is in that ballpark.

    Nabokov family is descended from the Tatar Prince. But how much Tatar blood is present in this Nabokov family, by the end of 19th century?

    Why do you think paternal origin (known to be foreign) will be different from less-famous maternal surnames? You think it is a coincidence that everyone has foreign origin for paternal ancestors but everyone else in the family tree happens to be Russian?

    In almost all cases, when a Russian name is famous enough to have research into its origins – the origins are foreign.

    As for Nabakov – “His paternal grandmother was the Baltic German Baroness Maria von Korff (1842–1926).” Another grandmother was Kozlova – daughter of a Jewish doctor (don’t know mother’s ethnicity). Her husband was a Russian Old Believer, Rukavishnikov – an actual Russian. Because he was a commoner.

    So father Nabakov was half-German, half-Nabakov. As for Nabakov – father’s mother was from the family Nazimov from Samara. If it is the same as the old noble family Nazimov, then origins are Lithuanians who came to Pskov.

    Mother Nabakova was half-Russian, half (?) Jewish.

    So only one of the writer Nabakov’s grandparents was of actual more or less pure Russian origins. Two were non-Russians. The other was of mixed origins. So by origin Nabakov was less than 50% Russian. Some of the foreign origins were recent (like his German grandmother), others were from centuries ago. But still, like typical Russian elites, the guy was of mostly non-Russian descent.

    Pushkin – we know was descendant of an Ethiopian Prince. But we also know this was only 12,5% of Pushkin’s ancestry was Ethiopian.

    The Ethiopian married a German woman. So 25% non-Russian. As for the others – Pushkin is by legend descended from Germans. This particular legend may not be true. But his other Russian ancestors were from Golovin family – Greeks from Trabzond and Chicherin – of Italian origin, descendants of Athanasius Chicherny (Chicherini) who came to Russia in 1470s. So all non-Russian origins with the possible exception of Pushkin.

  422. AP says:
    @AnonFromTN

    I guess, compared to Ukrainian, English is also an underdeveloped language. LOL

    English grammar is simpler than German, which is an older language.

    You also forgot to mention that Chukcha language has many times more words for different kinds of snow than Russian.

    You are joking, but the issue is with grammatical complexity.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  423. AP says:
    @AnonFromTN

    The country on Nikki’s watch suffered a humiliating defeat at the hands of Japan, a second-rate power, all because of defective shells supplied Russian Navy.

    And ten years later Nikki’s Russia smashed two Great Powers – Austria-Hungary and the Ottoman Empire (which had kicked British ass) at the same time, while maintaining a front against Germany.

    Obviously he was wrong to go to war to help the terrorist Serb regime, not only as a principle but because it was too early. But Russia had improved greatly under his rule.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  424. AP says:
    @songbird

    OTOH monarchy meant countries were ruled by people born into it. Democracies are ruled by people cunning enough to lie and manipulate their way to the top. Kings were probably more decent people than elected office-holders. Though revolutionaries were probably the worst people of all.

    • Replies: @songbird
  425. @AP

    English (particularly American English) became international, and due to that the most developed in terms of vocabulary, language specifically because it has the simplest grammar and writing possible. So, it does not present an insurmountable obstacle for a non-native speaker. This is in contrast to Slavic, French, and Germanic languages with very complex and often convoluted grammar, and Chinese with too complex writing system. Handicapped by their hieroglyphs, Chinese cannot borrow words as easily as languages with alphabetical writing. I saw a Chinese scientific paper, it looks ridiculous: squiggle-squiggle-squiggle-electrophoresis, squiggle-squiggle-squiggle-gel, etc. In fact, Latin lost its position as an international scientific language mostly because of too complex grammar. I’ve heard that some American Indian languages have even more complex grammar than Latin. That does not make them more developed, just harder to learn and more likely to go extinct.

    Developed language means that it has words for many things, not that its grammar is the most convoluted. That was my point.

  426. @AP

    Austro-Hungarian and Ottoman Empires were on their last legs. In fact, the state of Austro-Hungary at the beginning of the twentieth century was best described in The Good Soldier Švejk by Jaroslav Hašek.

    We must ask pertinent questions. If Russian Empire under Nikki was so good, why did the revolution happen? If the USSR was so good, why did it disintegrate? If the US is so great, why is it stuck in Afghanistan since 2001 with no light at the end of the tunnel? Without answering these questions, we cannot understand history.

    • Replies: @AP
    , @Seraphim
  427. Seraphim says:
    @AnonFromTN

    This is more ‘Journalism in Tennessee’.
    BTW, American journalism played a major role in disseminating revolutionary anti-tsarist propaganda (with all the poncifs and lies you hear today). Think of the fanatical idealist anti-tsarist George Kennan, his relentless Russia bashing since 1890 onward and direct material support for revolutionaries (Jacob Schiff was offering a helping hand holding the money bag).

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  428. @Seraphim

    Is “Journalism in Tennessee” the only thing of Mark Twain you ever read? It’s rather short and not the funniest of his creations. Read at least “A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur’s Court”, even if you can’t digest his other things.

    • Replies: @Seraphim
  429. AP says:
    @AnonFromTN

    Austro-Hungarian and Ottoman Empires were on their last legs.

    Only because they lost the war. The German Empire also collapsed. Yet it was stronger than both of its Western enemies combined.

    In fact, the state of Austro-Hungary at the beginning of the twentieth century was best described in The Good Soldier Švejk by Jaroslav Hašek.

    I’d go with Musil. There is a very nice quote about Austria that I can’t find online now…

    If Russian Empire under Nikki was so good, why did the revolution happen?

    It was good, but not quite good enough to survive a years-long global war with 1.8 million dead.

    If the USSR was so good, why did it disintegrate?

    Well, it was garbage, destroyed by its own elite, with much less pressure than that which the Russian Empire had faced.

    • Replies: @AP
  430. AP says:
    @AP

    I’d go with Musil. There is a very nice quote about Austria that I can’t find online now…

    Found it:

    (place it behind “more”)

    [MORE]

    There, in Kakania, that state since vanished that no one understood, in many ways an exemplary state, though unappreciated, there was a tempo too, but not too much tempo. Whenever one thought of that country from someplace abroad, the memory that hovered before one’s eyes was of white, wide, prosperous-looking roads dating from the era of foot marches and mail coaches, roads that crisscrossed the country in every direction like rivers of order, like ribbons of bright military twill, the paper-white arm of the administration holding all the provinces in its embrace. And what provinces they were! Glaciers and sea, Karst limestone and Bohemian fields of grain, nights on the Adriatic chirping with restless cicadas, and Slovakian villages where the smoke rose from chimneys as from upturned nostrils while the village cowered between two small hills as if the earth had parted its lips to warm its child between them. Of course cars rolled on these roads too, but not too many! The conquest of the air was being prepared here too, but not too intensively. A ship would now and then be sent off to South America or East Asia, but not too often. There was no ambition for world markets or world power. Here at the very center of Europe, where the world’s old axes crossed, words such as “colony” and “overseas” sounded like something quite untried and remote. There was some show of luxury, but by no means as in such overrefined ways as the French. People went in for sports, but not as fanatically as the English. Ruinous sums of money were spent on the army, but only just enough to secure its position as the second-weakest among he great powers. The capital, too, was somewhat smaller than all the other biggest cities of the world, but considerably bigger than a mere big city. And the country’s administration was conducted in an enlightened, unobtrusive manner, with all sharp edges cautiously smoothed over, by the best bureaucracy in Europe, which could be faulted only in that it regarded genius, and any brilliant individual initiative not backed by noble birth or official status, as insolent and presumptuous. But then, who welcomes interference from unqualified outsiders? And in Kakania, at least, it would only happen that a genius would be regarded as a lout, but never was a mere lout taken—as happens elsewhere for a genius.

    All in all, how many amazing things might be said about this vanished Kakania! Everything and every person in it, for instance, bore the label of kaiserlich-königlich (Imperial-Royal) or kaiserlich und königlich (Imperial and Royal), abbreviated as “k.k.” or “k.&k.,” but to be sure which institutions and which persons were to be designated by “k.k.” and which by “k.&k.” required the mastery of a secret science. On paper it was called the Austro-Hungarian Monarchy, but in conversation it was called Austria, a name solemnly abjured officially while stubbornly retained emotionally, just to show that feelings are quite as important as constitutional law and that regulations are one thing but real life is something else entirely. Liberal in its constitution, it was administered clerically. The government was clerical, but everyday life was liberal. All citizens were equal before the law, but not everyone was a citizen. There was a Parliament, which asserted its freedom so forcefully that it was usually kept shut; there was also an Emergency Powers Act that enabled the government to get along without Parliament, but then, when everyone had happily settled for absolutism, the Crown decreed that it was time to go back to parliamentary rule. The country was full of such goings on, among them the sort of nationalist movements that rightly attracted so much attention in Europe and are so thoroughly misunderstood today. They were so violent that they jammed the machinery of government and brought it to a dead stop several times a year, but in the intervals and during the deadlocks people got along perfectly well and acted as if nothing had happened. And in fact, nothing really had happened. It was only that everyone’s natural resentment of everyone else’s efforts to get ahead, a resentment we all feel nowadays, had crystallized earlier in Kakania, where it can be said to have assumed the form of a sublimated ceremonial rite, which could have had a great future had its development not been cut prematurely short by a catastrophe.

    Insofar as this can become visible to all eyes it had happened in Kakania, making Kakania, unbeknownst to the world, the most progressive state of all; a state just barely able to go along with itself. One enjoyed a negative freedom there, always with the sense of insufficient grounds for one’s own existence, and lapped around by the great fantasy of all that not happened irrevocably as by the breath of those oceans from which mankind had once emerged.

    Events that might be regarded as momentous elsewhere were here introduced with a casual ,,Es ist passiert…”—a peculiar form of “it happened” unknown elsewhere in German or any other language, whose breath could transform facts and blows of fate into something as light as thistledown or thought. Perhaps, despite so much that can be said against it, Kakania was, after all, a country for geniuses which is probably what brought it to its ruin.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  431. Seraphim says:
    @AnonFromTN

    What I certainly would not digest is Mark Twain’s demented calls for revolution in Russia and the murder of the Tsar, whom he called in typical American fashion “the high priest of the Christian Church in Russia, the Emperor”.
    Or phrases like that: ‘The idiotic Crusades were gotten up to ‘rescue’ a valueless tomb from the Saracens. It seems to me that a crusade to make a bonfire of the Russian throne & fry the Czar in it would have some sense’.
    Or his urges to Russian mothers to teach their children: “When you grow up, knife a Romanoff wherever you find him, loyalty to these cobras is treason to the nation; be a patriot, not a prig – set the people free”.
    Or blatant lies like: ‘The Czar requires every Russian to spend the fifteen best and most efficient years of his life in the army; and then turns him adrift without pension and ignorant of all ways of sustaining life except by killing people”, when the service in the Imperial Army was of six years.
    Or, like those: “The servants of the government in patriotic obedience to its commands have lately killed and wounded 50,000 Jews by unusual and unpleasant methods, butchering men and women with knife and bayonet; flinging them out of windows; saturating them with kerosene, and setting fire to them; shutting them up in cellars and smothering them with smoke; drenching the children with boiling water; tearing other children asunder by methods of the Middle Ages” (but that suggests who was paying him to do “Tennessee Journalism” at ‘The benefit matinee for the Jewish sufferers in Russia’ – Mr. and Mrs. Jacob Schiff, Mr. and Mrs. Isaac Guggenheim, Mr. and Mrs. Randolph Guggenheim, Mme. [Sarah] Bernhardt… among others).

    Quite disgusting, actually. It makes you puke. Have you noticed that he resembles Bolton?

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  432. Seraphim says:
    @AnonFromTN

    But in a ‘longue durée’ perspective, the K.u.K. and the Ottoman Empires have gone with no perspective to ‘resurge’, whereas the Russian Empire has been just dented at the margins. How does one explain the ‘resurgence’ of Russia, after the devastations of a revolution and a terrible war, both intended to wipe it out from the map, more terrifying than in the time of Nikki?

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  433. melanf says:
    @AP

    It’s Vernadsky’s list, not mine. And you forgot the numbers. I will remind you:
    Verndasky had a survey of 17th century Russian noble families…

    I already answered you, will copy my answer again
    Moscow princedom/Russian Tsardom massively migrated (or passed with their lands) lords of the Russian principalities on the territory of the medieval “Lithuania”. Among migrants-aristocrats were ethnic Lithuanians (or rather half and a quarter Lithuanians), but they were few. Polish aristocrats (ethnically Polish) in Moscow princedom/Russian Tsardom did not migrate. “229 of Western European (including German) origin” is of course a mythical genealogies. French/Italian/English / German… aristocracy never moved to medieval Russia. All these false “Western European” genealogies (with few exceptions) mask the origin from the local swineherds.
    Tatar aristocrats really migrated EN masse to Moscow princedom/Russian Tsardom, but there were also false “Tatar genealogies” when the grandson of the local swineherd (grandson who became a feudal Lord) invented genealogy from Genghis Khan.
    House of Rurik – a local dynasty (but funny that were a fake Rurikids, it is known for sure thanks to genetic research).
    If for approximate calculation exclude ethnic Lithuanians, but to consider all “Tatar” genealogies authentic, it will turn out from your list: 229 +223 +168 +42=462 noble families of Russian origin, 156 of foreign origin.

    If you want to justify your thesis (about the foreign origin of the Russian aristocracy), please prove three points:

    1) In the medieval Orthodox Russia (12-14 century) there was a mass migration of the Catholic aristocracy from Western Europe (especially from Germany), and therefore the mythical “Western” progenitors of the families of Pushkin, Tolstoy, etc. are real people and not an invention of the 17-18 th century
    2) The boyars and princes of the Russian principalities on the territory of the medieval “Lithuania” (who migrated to Moscow princedom/Russian Tsardom in 13-15 century) were foreigners.
    3)That the Rurik clan (the Rurik clan that created Russia and Russians from different tribes, with different ethnic origins – Slavic, Finnish, Scandinavian,…) was of foreign origin.

    The early 16th century Volhynian Chronicle (1520s IIRC) for example described Ruthenians from their lands as “Rus” and people we now call Russians as Muscovites

    In order not to waste time, justify the foreign origin of real migrants from South Russian lands.
    In the first quarter of the XIV century.known 7 boyars who served the Prince of Moscow: Protasiy (the founder Veniaminov familiа), Fedor Bacont (the founder Pleshcheev familiа), Nester Ryabets (the founder Kvashnin familiа), Okuti (the founder of Valuev familiа), Mina (the founder Safronovskiy and Proestev familiа), Basil Kochev, Terentiy Rtish. http://litresp.ru/chitat/ru/%D0%93/gorskij-anton-anatoljevich/moskva-i-orda
    Protasiy came from the boyars of Vladimir Principality, Fedor Bacont was from boyars of Chernigov Principality, Nester Ryabets from boyars of Kiev Principality, the origin of the other 4 is unknown (obviously they were local).

    Please prove that
    1) the elite of the Moscow Principality in the first quarter of the XIV century was mostly of foreign origin.
    2) Fedor Bacont and Nester Ryabets were foreigners

    • Replies: @AP
  434. melanf says:
    @Dmitry

    This is melanf’s point – that it was very common for elite families to be proud of their origin from another nationality. But how large is this component in the family?

    My point is different: the statement of the AP about the foreign origin of most of the noble families of Russia (on the paternal side) is simply false.
    AP makes three false assumptions:
    1) the AP believes what is real (and not mythical), mythical (invented in the 16th-18th centuries) origin of the Russian medieval aristocratic families from the German Dukes, the Genoese Doge, the Roman emperors, etc., etc.
    2) the AP believes that people from southern/Western Russian principalities were foreigners (in the ethnic sense) in the Moscow Principality.
    3) the AP considers the family of Rurik as foreigners , while Rurik settled on the lands of the future of Russia at least a hundred years before the formation (through the mixing of tribes of different ethnic origin) of the Russian people and Russia.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  435. songbird says:
    @AP

    Monarchy has 2 essential problems as I see it:

    1.) Gene shuffle
    2.) Deep state

    #1 could perhaps be solved by a breeding program, which attempted to select for the most desirable traits – though it wouldn’t be easy. #2 is much harder to solve – perhaps modern communications tech would help. Of course, there are other problems – I think you’d need to study the psychology of rulers, and find a way to pick good advisors. Still, it may be an easier system to perfect than democracy.

  436. @AP

    Good quote. To be honest, it does not contradict Hašek.
    There was clearly a dominant stupidity in Kakania that brought it to ruin, but there were positive things, too, which one can see even now.

    In Budapest the cable car from Danube to the upper city (formerly Buda) built by Franz Joseph I of Austria still works (in contrast to the cable car in Zagreb, Croatia, which does not). The metro line just a few meters below the surface in flat Pest, also built by Franz Joseph I of Austria, still works. Yet most of today’s Budapest looks surprisingly poor. Touristy areas provide a sharp contrast to the rest of the city. Their oversized Parliament building is way too magnificent for a midget state that Hungary is. However, Hungarians do have their culture and respect it: when I visited it, the Operetta theater was full and the people knew the songs and sang them (for someone who does not speak either language, it is quite an experience to hear operetta sung in Hungarian with projected German translation). But you can’t buy tickets to the Operetta online (despite the website claiming that you can). Maybe it’s good, after all: these tickets are amazingly cheap when you buy them in the ticket box in Budapest. That’s why the locals can afford it. But I admire them for spending some of their meager income on operetta, rather than booze, like people in the Baltics do.

    Vienna still feels like a capital of an Empire, being an oversized capital for inconsequential Austria today. But Vienna opera is still one of the best in the world, like in the times of Franz Joseph I of Austria.

    It is clear that the Empire consisting of incompatible Austria, Czech lands, Hungary, and Bosnia was an artificial construct doomed to fall apart. Which it did.

    • Replies: @Art Deco
    , @AP
  437. @Seraphim

    Indeed, Mark Twain knew about Russia about as much as Bolton. Lack of knowledge feeds prejudices. It helps people believe the most improbable stories, as false as the BS about Russia spewed by the American MSM today. Yet, in contrast to pathetic Bolton, Mark Twain had a talent.

    • Replies: @Seraphim
  438. @Seraphim

    I’d say that there are several factors that explain Russian resurgence after WWI and the end of the Empire, after the devastation of WWII, and after the dissolution of the USSR. One is space, the factor that fooled would be conquerors, such as Napoleon, Hitler, and now the US. The other is natural resources: the lost parts of the Russian Empire and the USSR were largely parasites, so it is hardly surprising that the host becomes stronger after getting rid of parasites. Last, but not least, is the spirit: Russia is a civilization, not a tribe-based country, and Russians (in a broad sense, including all the non-Russians who appreciate being a part of the magnificent whole, rather than inconsequential statelets everybody wipes his boots on) despise subservient cucks we all know. The combination of space, resources, and spirit makes Russia what it is. That’s why attacking Russia never was a good career move, and still isn’t.

    • Replies: @Art Deco
    , @Seraphim
  439. Art Deco says:
    @AnonFromTN

    Vienna still feels like a capital of an Empire, being an oversized capital for inconsequential Austria today.

    About 20% of Austria’s population lives in greater Vienna, a ratio which is perfectly unremarkable for a country with Austria’s population. The ratio of greater Oslo’s population to that of Norway as a whole and that of the urban glob around Toronto to Canada’s as a whole are about the same, even though neither Norway nor Canada had dependencies of any description.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  440. Art Deco says:
    @AnonFromTN

    One is space, the factor that fooled would be conquerors, such as Napoleon, Hitler, and now the US.

    The notion that the U.S. government is a ‘would be conquerer’ of Russia is fanciful.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  441. @Art Deco

    I never was in Oslo, or anywhere in Norway, so I don’t have personal experience. Toronto looks provincial, like an oversized Indianapolis, whereas Vienna looks like a capital of somewhat greater importance than it is in reality. I am not saying that it’s bad. It is actually good that Austria preserved something worth visiting, in contrast to many third-rate countries that seem to be OK with their insignificance (except that they all have a severe inferiority complex, in contrast to Austria). No wonder that those with the inferiority complex enthusiastically bark at Russia, the more severe the complex, the louder the bark.

    • Replies: @Art Deco
  442. @Art Deco

    Yea, it’s more like “wonna be” than “would be”. Imperial dreams are there, but so far they were tempered by the common sense. Let’s hope common sense prevails.

    • Replies: @Art Deco
  443. Art Deco says:
    @AnonFromTN

    The only person I can recall saying in a public forum that he’d be pleased if we conquered Russia was Wm. Rusher. Mr. Rusher died eight years ago and was a peripheral figure in American opinion journalism from his semi-retirement in 1988 until his death. He was also referring specifically to Russia as it was during the Soviet period, not Russia as it has been in the last 30 years. Again, the only ‘Imperial dreams’ are the one’s you’re making up in your own head.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  444. @Art Deco

    I don’t necessarily mean military conquest. The Empire wants everyone toeing the line. Say, Australia or Canada are not occupied by the Imperial troopers, but they are subservient vassals of the Empire, nonetheless. That’s what I mean by “Imperial dreams”. In case of Russia this kind of domination is just as impossible as military conquest. That’s exactly what makes the Empire hysterical right now.

    • Replies: @Art Deco
  445. Art Deco says:
    @AnonFromTN

    It doesn’t matter if you’ve been in Oslo or not. Nor does it matter that Vienna has more pretty buildings per acre than does Toronto. The demographic dimensions of these urban settlements compared to those of the country in which they nestle are what they are.

    The mavens at the Times Higher Education Supplement will be pleased to tell you that the University of Toronto is a grander institution than the University of Vienna or Lomonosov Moscow State University. Production of goods and services in an around Toronto also exceeds that of Vienna – by a factor of about 4.

    • Agree: Johann Ricke
    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  446. Art Deco says:
    @AnonFromTN

    It’s pretty amusing watching you dance around the checkerboard.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  447. @Art Deco

    Glad you are amused. Pray to whatever gods you believe in that imperial tantrums do not translate into equally stupid action: radioactive dust can no longer be amused.

  448. @Art Deco

    Production of goods and services in an around Toronto also exceeds that of Vienna – by a factor of about 4.

    Are they counting the rent homeowners would have paid themselves if they were crazy enough to rent their own homes from themselves into production, like in the US? That greatly helps to inflate the bubble.

    University of Toronto is a grander institution than the University of Vienna or Lomonosov Moscow State University.

    Tell me more about U Toronto. I gave a talk there a couple of years ago and was an outside member of the PhD defense committee. It’s OK, but not very impressive.

    • Replies: @Mikhail
  449. AP says:
    @melanf

    I already answered you, will copy my answer again

    I thought I had answered you. In case not, will answer again.

    “229 of Western European (including German) origin” is of course a mythical genealogies. French/Italian/English / German… aristocracy never moved to medieval Russia.

    Your empty claim. Just because large numbers of such people did not move, does not mean that dozens or hundreds of individuals did not move. Large numbers of Africans did not move to Russia, but Pushkin’s ancestor did. In 500 years a “melanf” will claim that Pushkin’s ancestry was a myth because no large numbers of Africans came to Russia.

    So Pushkin’s ancestor Chicherin family were descended from an Italian. About them, from Russian wik

    1) In the medieval Orthodox Russia (12-14 century) there was a mass migration of the Catholic aristocracy from Western Europe (especially from Germany), and therefore the mythical “Western” progenitors of the families of Pushkin, Tolstoy, etc. are real people and not an invention of the 17-18 the century

    Perhaps 50-100 original German noble settlers who can account for hundreds of “branches” (such as the large Tolstoy family). So “mass migration” is unnecessary to account for this.

    That having been said, Russian wiki indicates not insignificant German settlement in Russia:

    By the end of the 12th century, many German merchants, craftsmen, warriors, doctors and scientists had already settled in Russian cities [5] . The first written mention of the existence of a “ German quarter ” in Novgorod — the place where merchants lived and stored goods — dates back to 1199. But this quarter was founded, apparently, earlier, since the construction in the city of the German church of St. Peter, the former center of the German court, was reported already in 1184.

    2) The boyars and princes of the Russian principalities on the territory of the medieval “Lithuania” (who migrated to Moscow princedom/Russian Tsardom in 13-15 century) were foreigners.

    Rus broke apart as a unified state in about 1150. By 1450 the Russian and Lithuanian parts were separated from each other by 300 years – longer that the USA and Britain. And they had much more foreign influences on each other. So naturally they viewed each other as foreigners. Starting from the 1440s the Volhynian Chronicle for example described territory of Grand Duchy of Lithuania as “all the Rus lands” and Russia as Muscovy. In a list of different lands, Muscovia was categorized alongside Bulgaria and Moldavia as Orthodox, but not Rus. The Battle of Orsha (1517) was described in the Volhynian Chronicle as a battle of Lithuanians and Rus against Muscovites. OTOH, Russians/Muscovites called themselves Rus but Ruthenians from Belarus or Ukraine as Lithuanians.

    3)That the Rurik clan (the Rurik clan that created Russia and Russians from different tribes, with different ethnic origins – Slavic, Finnish, Scandinavian,…) was of foreign origin.

    I already posted genetic data proving that Rurik was from Sweden. Sweden is not Russia. Moreover, Rurukids maintained a rather non-native, Scandinavian bloodline for a long time after coming to Russia. Ingvar (Igor) and Helga (St. Olga) were both Scandinavians. Yaroslav the Wise (ruled until 1054) had a father (Vladimir) who was either full-blooded Scandinavian or half-Scandinavian (origins of his mother are uncertain, some sources indicate Scandinavian others do not). His mother was Scandinavian so Yaroslav was either 100% or 75% Scandinavian. Yaroslav’s wife was Swedish, so his successor was even more Scandinavian.

    So yes, Rurukids were of non-native Russian origin. One branch – Chernigov was not genetically of Scandinavian origin, due to apparently some cheating.

    1) the elite of the Moscow Principality in the first quarter of the XIV century was mostly of foreign origin.

    I did not discuss elite of Moscow in the early 1300s when it was still a small place. Rulers were of course Rurikids – non-native to Russia. They tended to marry Tatar princesses. So Yuri Danilovich of Moscow (ruled until 1325) married Konchaka, a sister of a Tatar Khan. By 1500s you have majority non-native elite.

    • Replies: @melanf
    , @melanf
  450. AP says:
    @AnonFromTN

    It is clear that the Empire consisting of incompatible Austria, Czech lands, Hungary, and Bosnia was an artificial construct doomed to fall apart. Which it did.

    In retrospect they were incompatible but the Empire had lasted for centuries and until the catastrophic war it was not widely assumed that it would fall apart. Masaryk, the father of independent Czechoslovakia, before the war was saying that the Empire’s existence was necessary for the Czech people. And he was right – Czechs nationalists got 20 years of independence, followed by decades of Nazism and then Communism. Bohemia was once only a little poorer than Austria (like Canada vs. USA), it cannot compare now.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  451. Dmitry says:
    @melanf

    I think problem of his argument is not necessarily that foreign ancestors of these famous people did not exist or are all mythological.

    It is more the proportion of ancestry in each family, which is composed by them.

    So if we look at one of the most famous Norwegian genius – Grieg.

    Grieg’s ancestry (also like Lermontov) from Scotland. And the nationalists of Scotland are viewing Grieg as being from Scotland.
    https://www.heraldscotland.com/opinion/13143032.mosstown-melody-and-griegs-link-to-scotland/

    However, in reality, it is only one ancestor from Scotland in the fourth generation. In other words, Grieg is only 12,5% from Scotland, but 87,5% from Norway.

    In the similar case of Lermontov, the component of ancestry from Scotland will be even far lower than for Grieg.

    • Replies: @AP
    , @songbird
  452. @AP

    Czechs have the same problem as all small nations: either you belong to something greater that regards you as a valuable part, or you become a plaything of external forces, who don’t give a hoot about you and your interests. Still, Hegel was right: “We learn from history that we do not learn from history”.

    • Replies: @AP
  453. AP says:
    @AnonFromTN

    Czechs have the same problem as all small nations: either you belong to something greater that regards you as a valuable part, or you become a plaything of external forces

    Correct, which is why destruction of Austria-Hungary was a tragedy for central-eastern Europe.

    But another factor – that something greater ought to be great.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    , @songbird
  454. @Thorfinnsson

    Dear TF

    BONNE ET HEUREUSE ANNÉE 2019 !

    Where did you find this series of charming Tintin cards? That’s also by comparing the quality of those drawings with that of contemporary comic strips that one can measure how degenerate the francophone world has become. There really isn’t much left that’s worth saving.

    I will be in southern France for the next few weeks. If I am not mistaken your father lives there? The landscape here is striking — a daily testimony to what almost 25 centuries of what the white man is capable of doing. Almost nothing in the landscape is really “natural”, every square foot of land has been patiently plowed, worked, reorganized, improved, over generations. The “villages perchés” of Provence are simply astounding.

    Now of course when you drive into the more urbanized areas, the dream pops like a pierced balloon, and is replaced by the nightmare of dreadfully horrible suburbia. The French appear to be especially good and building atrocious suburbs. It must be the influence of the post-WW2 communist architects, à la Le Corbusier (who, in all fairness, was… Suisse 😉 ).

    Thank you for your responses regarding global warming. My apologies for having used the acronym GIEC, which is French for IPCC. Regarding the series of COPxx (COP21, COP24, etc.), it’s a series of globalist UN get-togethers that also leverage fear mongering about “climate change” to further the usual socialist, Masonic kind of goals.

    From your answers I see that you are even more nuanced than I am now of the opinion that the very persona of the people that promote and populate those organizations suffice to say that what they promote is at best wrong, and at worst malevolent.

    Where I am currently it’s an established fact that the weather was substantially warmer about 900 years ago and that did not cause a massive collapse. Quite the opposite in fact, as it’s at that time that the dark ages of the first middle age ended, and when begun the Romanesque era that produced what I consider to be the most perfect and final architectural form.

    Happy new year to everyone reading and commenting here. And thanks again to RU and AK for their hospitality.

    Tb

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  455. AP says:
    @Dmitry

    I think problem of his argument is not necessarily that foreign ancestors of these famous people did not exist or are all mythological.

    They are mostly not mythological (see my other post).

    It is more the proportion of ancestry in each family, which is composed by them.

    Proportion is very high, because the raw material is mostly of foreign origin. The only difference is that some foreign origin came to Russia centuries before, others a generation or two before. But ultimately most were of foreign origin. This makes Russia very different from places like Germany, Poland, etc. A famous German elite person might have had a French ancestor or a Polish one (Nietszche) but going back one wouldn’t be see over 50% non-German origins in the long run across all family lines.

    It highlights the extent to which Russia is an “idea” largely of people without origins in Russia. Perhaps even more than the USA.

    So if we look at one of the most famous Norwegian genius – Grieg.

    Grieg’s ancestry (also like Lermontov) from Scotland. And the nationalists of Scotland are viewing Grieg as being from Scotland.

    https://www.heraldscotland.com/opinion/13143032.mosstown-melody-and-griegs-link-to-scotland/

    However, in reality, it is only one ancestor from Scotland in the fourth generation. In other words, Grieg is only 12,5% from Scotland, but 87,5% from Norway.

    If it was a Russian case – there would be one fourth generation ancestor form Scotland..and another four 6th or 7th generation ancestors from Scotland, and a a few more the generation ancestors form Sweden, some from England..so that ultimately when you add it up the guy is less than 50% Norwegian.

    Did you read my post to you?

    https://www.unz.com/akarlin/bershidskys-vision/#comment-2734422

    We looked at Nabakov as an example.

    “His paternal grandmother was the Baltic German Baroness Maria von Korff (1842–1926).” Another grandmother was Kozlova – daughter of a Jewish doctor (don’t know mother’s ethnicity). Her husband was a Russian Old Believer, Rukavishnikov – an actual Russian. Because he was a commoner.

    So Nabakov’s father was half-German, half-“Nabakov.” As for Nabakov – father’s mother was from the family Nazimov from Samara. If it is the same as the old noble family Nazimov, then origins are Lithuanians who came to Pskov.

    Nabakov’s mother was half-Russian, half (?) Jewish.

    So only one of the writer Nabakov’s 4 grandparents was of actual more or less pure Russian origins. Two were non-Russians – German, and Jewish. The third was of mixed origins. So by origin Nabakov was less than 50% Russian. Some of the foreign origins were recent (like his German grandmother), others were from centuries ago. But still, like typical Russian elites, the guy was of mostly non-Russian descent.

  456. @AP

    But another factor – that something greater ought to be great.

    Preferably, but not necessarily. Slovaks found the hard way that even belonging to Czechoslovakia made them more important than they are now. I am not even talking about Montenegro. But that’s their problem: they created it, they will have to live with it. As Ukrainian saying has it “Бачили очi, шо купували, так їжте, хоч повилазьте”. Translation for the uninitiated: it’s part of the joke about a guy who bought mustard (real spicy one, like Chinese or Russian, not that sweet stuff that is called mustard in Western Europe and the US), tried to eat it, feels his eyes bulging, and says “Well, my eyes, you saw what you bought, now eat it, even if you pop out”.

  457. Seraphim says:
    @AnonFromTN

    I would be more skeptical about Twain’s ignorance of Russia. He visited Russia where he was “met with nothing but the kindest attentions” and was full of praise for Tsar Alexander II for “so great a deed [as the emancipation of the serves]”. “America owes much to Russia, for her unwavering friendship in the season of her greatest need” (Civil War).

    But he changed his attitude after joining the American branch of the “Society of Friends of Russian Freedom” founded in England by Russian anarchists, very much to protest against ‘the horrific atrocities and pogroms’, accounts of which were published on a daily basis in mainstream and radical press, creating a climate of approval for the ‘militant activities of Russian revolutionaries’ (i.e. the wave of terror unleashed by the ‘militants’ in Russia). He had not a word of protest against the assassination of the man whom he admired, Tsar Alexander II. That he put his talent in the service of anti-Russian propaganda is not very good note. The more that it is hard not to suspect mercenary reasons.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  458. Seraphim says:
    @AnonFromTN

    @That’s why attacking Russia never was a good career move, and still isn’t.

    This is exactly what Bismarck, who knew Russia intimately, was trying to explain to the warmongers of the K.u.K. and Imperial Germany:

    “Even the most favorable outcome of the war would never result in the decomposition of Russia’s main power, which rests on the millions of actual Russians of the Greek Confession. These, though separated by contracts, would always reunite as quickly as the parts of a cut-up body of mercury. This indestructible empire of the Russian nation, strong by its climate, its deserts and its frugality, as well as by the advantage of having only one border to protect, would remain after our defeat our natural and revivalist adversary, just as today’s France is in the west”.

    There is no need to remind what the dismissal of Bismarck’s warnings (as his own) led to, twice so far.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  459. @Seraphim

    Yes, Bismarck was right, and whoever disregarded his warning was wrong.

    There is no need to remind what the dismissal of Bismarck’s warnings (as his own) led to, twice so far.

    Nobody would be reminding about that, if there weren’t people ostensibly in power in the US and its vassals who do need those reminders. I agree, though, that most people commenting on this site do not need these reminders. Self-selection (except for trolls who do not select their place of employment).

    • Replies: @AP
  460. @Seraphim

    it is hard not to suspect mercenary reasons.

    I wonder who could have paid. However that might be, he was certainly wrong about Alexander II, who freed Russian peasants in the same year that the slaves were freed in the US.

    He should have freed them unconditionally, though, as some in his circle suggested. The financial burden he put on the freed peasants prepared the soil for subsequent revolution that destroyed the Empire and resulted in many atrocities (some committed by Bolsheviks, some by the White forces that fought them). Compared to the rule of both in the territories they controlled in 1917-1921, the Imperial power was benevolent. I am sure a lot of people at the time regretted that Romanov’s were overthrown, but it was too late: what’s done is done, cannot be undone.

    • Replies: @Seraphim
  461. songbird says:
    @Dmitry

    Mythological ancestors are pretty interesting – if they are really old. In some cases, I think they demonstrate a connection to the ancient idea of tribe.

    In ancient times, some people claimed descent from Hercules. I wonder if he ever made it into any medieval pedigrees – I’d guess not. In Ireland, the Church subverted some of the early mythology. Some of the native pedigrees survive, connect to mythic figures, to the mythic invasion of Ireland, and even go much further back to biblical figures.

    Some of it is clearly bunk, but there is a weird complexity. It is probably accurate to a point – at least perhaps a few generations before the origins of surnames. Of course, not everyone in a clan would be descended from the same man. Though early Christian kings often had multiple wives.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  462. songbird says:
    @AP

    It was inevitable – its coat of arms was a crazy hodgepodge.

  463. @songbird

    As a biologist, I have to tell you that conception does not require marriage. I’ve heard some geneticists say that there are about a million male descendants of Genghis Khan (with the same Y-chromosome). I don’t think he married every woman he ever screwed.

    • Replies: @songbird
  464. songbird says:
    @AnonFromTN

    Indeed, though the children of wives probably had better reproductive success, and were more likely to know their fathers. By the tradition of medieval pedigree, I am actually descended from a deposed king who cuckolded another king. I guess that makes the pedigree somewhat doubtful.

    I’m pretty skeptical about the big Y-chromosome groups tracing to one man’s harem. Shaka Zulu actually made sure there were no sons to challenge him. The Ottoman’s strangled all but one on the death of the Sultan. Some no doubt had many sons, but the Mongol Empire didn’t last that long.

    For sure, there was a lot of killing or men in ancient times – I think it is reflected in the politics of women. Also, being able to get land or give a dowry was a big deal. Of Irish slaves taken to Iceland, the males did not have as many children. I forget, but I don’t think the females even had as many children, though more than the males.

    It’s thought that horses were domesticated due to the right Y-chromosome being selected. Humans are probably similar. Certain haplotypes probably made it easier for men to get along and work together. In a decadent culture, this may be a bad thing.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
  465. AP says:
    @AnonFromTN

    Yes, Bismarck was right, and whoever disregarded his warning was wrong.

    It should be noted that on the eve of World War I the monarchs were least enthusiastic about world war but the governments were pushing strongly for it. The monarchs of course (reluctantly) went along, but they weren’t the drivers.

    This was the last attempt at personal, pure-monarchic diplomacy in Europe. It was a nonagression-pact between Nicholas II and Wilhelm, that would have averted future wars. It was undone by their governments.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Bj%C3%B6rk%C3%B6

    • Replies: @songbird
  466. Seraphim says:
    @AnonFromTN

    I suspect that the paymaster was the same one who payed for all anti-Russian activities and propaganda, financed the Japanese to attack Russia (received with howling of satisfaction by Twain), the first who managed to introduce the first economic sanctions against Russia because of the persecution of the Jews, the declared enemy of the Tsar, Jacob Schiff.
    Mark Twain did not protest against the assassination of President McKinley, by the same people who assassinated Tsar Alexander II.

    As it turned out the emancipation of the serfs paid off producing “substantial increases in agricultural productivity, industrial output, and peasants’ nutrition in Imperial Russia as a result of the abolition of serfdom in 1861”. Amplified by the reforms of Stolypin which created a prosperous peasantry that the Communists had to make a protracted effort to exterminate and ’emancipate’ from their land. The ‘revolution’ was not the result of a desperately poor peasantry. But this is the cherished myth of the liberals and Bolsheviks alike and it cannot be eradicated.
    To be sure, the first to regret the Romanovs were the ones who overthrew them, only to be wiped out by the Bolsheviks.

  467. @songbird

    Genghis Khan didn’t kill his many sons, neither did his sons or grandsons etc. do anything like that. Many of his grandchildren and great-grandchildren still ruled over empires or at least were aristocrats, so they still had many children themselves. So no comparison to Shaka Zulu or similar local rulers. The descendants of Genghis ruled the largest part of Eurasia for several generations (some parts for several centuries), and then even later they were in the elite in much of their former domains. I think some descendants of Genghis even joined the Russian nobility.

    • Replies: @songbird
    , @melanf
  468. @AnonFromTN

    The grammar of isolated languages tend to be more complex (and evolve in the direction of increasing complexity), making them very hard to learn.

    On the other hand, imperial languages will be (badly) learned and spoken by large numbers of non-native speakers, and their (oversimplified, bad) usage will influence the language and tend to make it less complex over time.

    That’s a very simple point. Ukrainian is a more isolated language, and so it’s grammatically more complex than the imperial language Russian.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  469. melanf says:
    @AP

    “229 of Western European (including German) origin” is of course a mythical genealogies. French/Italian/English / German… aristocracy never moved to medieval Russia.

    Your empty claim. Just because large numbers of such people did not move, does not mean that dozens or hundreds of individuals did not move. Large numbers of Africans did not move to Russia, but Pushkin’s ancestor did.

    quote from your: “Verndasky had a survey of 17th century Russian noble families. The exact origins of the families surveyed were: 229 of Western European (including German) origin, 223 of Polish and Lithuanian origin (this number included Ruthenian nobility), 156 of Tatar and other Oriental origin, 168 families belonged to the House of Rurik and 42 were of unspecified “Russian” origin.

    The migration of Tatar and Lithuanian aristocrats to medieval Russia is well documented in medieval sources. The migration of aristocrats from the Southern and Western Russian principalities to the Moscow Principality is also well documented in medieval Chronicles. But in sources (both russian and western) there is no mention of resettlement to Russia of the West European aristocrats (Catholics).
    There could be exceptions, but 229 clans descended from the (unknown in medieval sources) Western European aristocracy (against 156 having presumably Tatar origin) – this is not an exaggeration of the number , but just nonsense.

    Large numbers of Africans did not move to Russia, but Pushkin’s ancestor did.

    And for this resettlement to Russia of Abram Hannibal is well documented in the sources of the 18th century.

    By the end of the 12th century, many German merchants, craftsmen, warriors, doctors and scientists had already settled in Russian cities

    In medieval sources (Russian and German) there is no information about such resettlement. Especially funny – German “scientists” in Russia 12 century. Why not IT specialists? Wikipedia is a cesspool.

    Rus broke apart as a unified state in about 1150. By 1450 the Russian and Lithuanian parts were separated from each other by 300 years – longer that the USA and Britain.

    Great
    quote from your: “Among German, French, Polish etc. elites one can find foreigners here and there; among Russian elites one can find the occasional ethnic Russian” I’m curious – do you realy believe in what you write? I’m training my English here, but why are you wasting your time writing this? (Rus broke apart as a unified state in about 1150, and on this natives from one Russian Principality in another Principality – ethnic foreigners. But in Germany of course quite a different situation/S)

    Starting from the 1440s the Volhynian Chronicle

    Do not waste time on Volhynian Chronicle. Show from sources that Fyodor Bakont / Nestor Ryabets/other migrants from the Southern /(Western) principalities were identified by contemporaries / (identified themselves) as foreigners. Volhynn in this case is irrelevant-as I know from Volhyn were no migrants (the famous Moscow warlord prince Bobrok of Volhyn was a Lithuanian, grandson of Gediminas)

    I already posted genetic data proving that Rurik was from Sweden

    So? Suppose hypothetically that Rurik was a Martian or Atlant, or a relic Neanderthal. But in any case (even if he was a Martian, Atlant and Neanderthal) he was not a foreigner because in his time there was no Russia and there was no Russian people. The descendants of Rurik made Russian (from different tribes, including the Scandinavian), and Rurik himself is an ancestor of any ethnic Russian in many lines. Analog Rurik and his successors – the kings of the early medieval tribe of Scott. Do you think the descendants of these kings are foreigners in modern Scotland?

    • Replies: @AP
  470. melanf says:
    @AP

    They tended to marry Tatar princesses. So Yuri Danilovich of Moscow (ruled until 1325) married Konchaka, a sister of a Tatar Khan. By 1500s you have majority non-native elite.

    But only Konchaka, was the third wife of Yuri, and Yuri did not have left offspring (he was succeeded by younger brother Ivan).

    Here is the origin of the Moscow princes:
    Daniel (founder of the family of Moscow princes) is the son of Alexander Nevsky and the daughter of Prince Polotsk. Daniel’s wife is unknown (probably from the local boyars).

    The heirs of Daniel – his sons Yuri (childless) and Ivan.

    The heirs of Ivan (from his marriage with the daughter of the Prince of Smolensk) – his sons Simeon the Proud (childless) and Ivan the Fair

    Heir of Ivan the Fair (from marriage with the daughter of the Moscow boyar Velyaminov) – his son Dmitry Donskoy

    The heir of Dmitry Donskoy (from marriage with the daughter of Suzdal Prince) – his son Vasily I

    The heir to Vasily I (from marriage to the daughter of Lithuanian Grand Duke Vytautas) is his son Vasily II

    The heir of Vasily II (from his marriage with the daughter of the Prince of Dmitrov) – his son Ivan the Great

    Heir of Ivan the Great (from marriage to the Greek Princess) – his son Vasily III

    The heir of Vasily III (from his marriage with Elena Glinskaya – a Princess of the Western Russian/Serbian origin) is his son Ivan the Thunderstorm (wrongly translated as Ivan the Terrible)

    The heir of Ivan the Thunderstorm (from his marriage with the daughter of boyar Roman Zakharyin-Yuriev), his son Feodor I

    These are the rulers of Moscow from 1264 to 1598. Let’s compare (in the level of “foreignness”) with any European dynasty for the same period (dynasty of your choice)

    • Replies: @AP
    , @AP
    , @Seraphim
  471. songbird says:
    @reiner Tor

    A lot of these claims involve pop history. Sally Hemmings was said to have Thomas Jefferson’s children. Maybe so, but you never hear that he had an idiot brother that socialized with blacks.

    The claims surrounding Genghis are also somewhat questionable. 1 in 200 seems probably too high. Firstly, for the obvious reason that he had male relatives – though he supposedly did kill one brother. There would have been many cousins too. One man is not an army – any expansion probably involved extended kin groups.

    Aristocrats often died fighting other aristocrats, so they may not have had as many direct line sons as credited. The Qing supposedly eliminated one branch.

    DNA testing companies often sell their product in part based on finding out you have some famous male ancestor. That’s part of what makes me skeptical. In order for it to be more credible, I think you’d have to have a lot of ancient DNA pre-Mongol expansion, which demonstrated that it was hard to find in Mongolia before Genghis. I’m not sure there is such a dataset. I don’t know if they cremated their dead.

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
  472. @reiner Tor

    Here again the question of chicken or egg remains: do grammatically simpler languages have a better chance to become imperial than more complex ones, or do they become simpler as the result of becoming imperial and being spoken (badly) by lots of non-native speakers?

    FYI, Russian grammar is very complex and quite convoluted, nouns and verbs change, there are probably 10 times more idioms, sayings, and cultural references than in English, etc. Yet Russian is spoken by ~ 300 million people (only about half of them ethnic Russians), and it’s the second after English in the Internet content. So, I am leaning towards the second hypothesis, although English grammar became quite simple before Britain acquired an empire (I guess it’s the effect of Celtic overlaid with Germanic, then overlaid with French, so not much grammar survived).

  473. melanf says:
    @reiner Tor

    think some descendants of Genghis even joined the Russian nobility.

    The Princes Sibirscie – descendants of the Khan Kuchum (defeated by Yermak).

  474. songbird says:
    @AP

    Wilhelm was very vascillating. In 1889, he supposedly told a group of anti-Russian generals, “If Bismarck does not go along against Russia, then our ways must part. ”

    A lot of his diplomacy seemed an attempt to try to set the other powers against each other, even when he tried to pursue good relations between them and Germany.

  475. AP says:
    @melanf

    .

    But in sources (both russian and western) there is no mention of resettlement to Russia of the West European aristocrats (Catholics).
    There could be exceptions, but 229 clans descended from the (unknown in medieval sources) Western European aristocracy (against 156 having presumably Tatar origin) – this is not an exaggeration of the number , but just nonsense.

    Since settlement would not be mass it might not be mentioned. 229 clans might be descended from 60 Western settlers. And they might not have been been descended from Western nobles. We know there was a colony of Germans in Novgorod, for example.

    As for 229 Western European-originated clans vs. 156 Tatar ones – many Tatar females married into non-Tatar families, so clans would not have originate from them. But pretty much all of the Westerners who came to Rus were males.

    Large numbers of Africans did not move to Russia, but Pushkin’s ancestor did.

    And for this resettlement to Russia of Abram Hannibal is well documented in the sources of the 18th century.

    But you fail to understand – Pushkin did not descent from an African because of the document. He descended from the African whether or not there was a document. If there was no document, but just a family story passed down from generations – you would state that because there was no document the story was a false legend, because there was no mass settlement of Africans into Russia. And you would be wrong.

    In medieval sources (Russian and German) there is no information about such resettlement. Especially funny – German “scientists” in Russia 12 century. Why not IT specialists? Wikipedia is a cesspool.

    Source was taken from a Russian encyclopedia. So the German church did not exist? And what do you mean no scientists? No alchemists, no metalurgists, etc?

    I’m training my English here, but why are you wasting your time writing this? (Rus broke apart as a unified state in about 1150, and on this natives from one Russian Principality in another Principality – ethnic foreigners.

    By 1400s they were ethnic foreigners who regarded people of Moscow as a separate ethnicity. As demonstrated by Volhynian Chronicles. So the nobles who arrived in Muscovy in those times and later were foreigners.

    Do not waste time on Volhynian Chronicle. Show from sources that Fyodor Bakont / Nestor Ryabets/other migrants from the Southern /(Western) principalities were identified by contemporaries / (identified themselves) as foreigners.

    I made no claims that in early 1300s they were considered to be foreigners. But in 1400s and 1500s such people were.

    Volhynn in this case is irrelevant-as I know from Volhyn were no migrants (the famous Moscow warlord prince Bobrok of Volhyn was a Lithuanian, grandson of Gediminas)

    Volhynian Chronicles covered what is now Ukraine and Belarus and reflect ideas of those lands.

    So? Suppose hypothetically that Rurik was a Martian or Atlant, or a relic Neanderthal. But in any case (even if he was a Martian, Atlant and Neanderthal) he was not a foreigner because in his time there was no Russia and there was no Russian people.

    Irrelevant. If a group of Chinese or Greeks settled in Russia in 800 AD their descendants would still be of non-native origin, if you consider ethnic Russians to be natives of Russia. Because their ancestors came from other lands. Moreover, Rurikids kept a Scandinavian identity different from Slavs well past the foundation of the Rus state. You consider British born in India for generations, before the foundation of the modern Indian state, to be Indian natives?

    Analog Rurik and his successors – the kings of the early medieval tribe of Scott. Do you think the descendants of these kings are foreigners in modern Scotland?

    If they mixed with families of descendants of Tatars, Germans, Lithuanians, English, Irish, etc. rather than native Celts of Scotland so that they were of less than 50% native origin – than they are of foreign origin of course.

    • Replies: @melanf
  476. AP says:
    @melanf

    Daniel (founder of the family of Moscow princes) is the son of Alexander Nevsky and the daughter of Prince Polotsk.

    Rurikids -Swedish origin.

    The heirs of Daniel – his sons Yuri (childless) and Ivan.

    The heirs of Ivan (from his marriage with the daughter of the Prince of Smolensk) – his sons Simeon the Proud (childless) and Ivan the Fair

    Princes of Smolensk – Ruriks, Swedish origin. One of them married the daughter of Khan Mengu-Timur; she baptized and named Anna. So a family of mixed Swedish and Tatar descent.

    Etc. (I have to go somewhere now)

    • Replies: @melanf
  477. AP says:
    @melanf

    More:

    Heir of Ivan the Fair (from marriage with the daughter of the Moscow boyar Velyaminov) – his son Dmitry Donskoy

    Velyaminov family – alleged Swedish origin

    The heir of Dmitry Donskoy (from marriage with the daughter of Suzdal Prince) – his son Vasily I

    Suzdal prince – Rurikid (Swedish origin), Suzdal prince’s wife was either an Ossetian, Alanian or Moravian.

    The heir to Vasily I (from marriage to the daughter of Lithuanian Grand Duke Vytautas) is his son Vasily II

    Lithuanian

    The heir of Vasily II (from his marriage with the daughter of the Prince of Dmitrov) – his son Ivan the Great

    Vasily’s wife was of mixed Lithuanian descent.

    Heir of Ivan the Great (from marriage to the Greek Princess) – his son Vasily III

    Greek.

    The heir of Vasily III (from his marriage with Elena Glinskaya – a Princess of the Western Russian/Serbian origin) is his son Ivan the Thunderstorm (wrongly translated as Ivan the Terrible)

    So Western Rus or Serbian.

    So we have a Rurikid (Swedish) core to which was added other Rurikids (Swedes), Tatars, Lithuanians, Greeks, Western Rus, etc. Very few native Russian Slavs.

  478. Seraphim says:
    @melanf

    Rus’ included a lot of ‘foreigners’ from its very inception. The ‘Russian Primary Chronicle’ knew some things.

    “For the Slavic race in Rus’ includes only the Polyanians, the Derevlians, the people of Novgorod, the Polotians, the Dregovichians, the Severians, and the Buzhians, who live along the river Bug and were later called Volhynians. The following are other tribes which pay tribute to Rus’: Chud’, Merya, Ves’, Muroma, Cheremis’, Mordva, Perm’, Pechera, Yam,’ Litva, Zimegola, Kors’, Narva, and Liv’. These tribes have their own languages and belong to the race of Japheth, which inhabits the lands of the north….

    In the year 6360 (852), the fifteenth of the indiction, 15 at the accession of the Emperor Michael, the land of Rus’ was first named. We have determined this date from the fact that in the reign of this Emperor Russes attacked Tsar’grad, as is written in the Greek Chronicle…

    6367 (859). The Varangians from beyond the sea imposed tribute upon the Chuds, the Slavs, the Merians, the Ves’, and the Krivichians. 10 But the Khazars imposed it upon the Polyanians, the Severians, and the Vyatichians, and collected a white squirrel-skin from each hearth.

    6368-6370 (860-862). The tributaries of the Varangians drove them back beyond the sea and, refusing them further tribute, set out to govern themselves. There was no law among them, but tribe rose against tribe. Discord thus ensued among them, and they began to war one against another. They said to themselves, “Let us seek a prince who may rule over us and judge us according to the Law.” They accordingly went overseas to the Varangian Russes: these particular Varangians were known as Russes, just as some are called Swedes, and others Normans, English, and Gotlanders, for they were thus named. The Chuds, the Slavs, the Krivichians, and the Ves’ then said to the people of Rus’, “Our land is great and rich, but there is no order in it. Come to rule and reign over us.” They thus selected three brothers, with their kinsfolk, who took with them all the Russes and migrated. The oldest, Rurik, located himself in Novgorod; the second, Sineus, at Beloozero; and the third, Truvor, in Izborsk. 20 On account of these Varangians, the distiict of Novgorod became known as the land of Rus’. The present inhabitants of Novgorod are descended from the Varangian race, but aforetime they were Slavs…
    Rurik assumed the sole authority. He assigned cities to his followers, Polotsk to one, Rostov to another, and to another Beloozero. In these cities there are thus Varangian colonists, but the first setders were, in Novgorod, Slavs; in Polotsk, Krivichians; at Beloozero, Ves’, in Rostov, Merians; and in Murom, Muromians. Rurik had dominion over all these districts…
    Oleg set himself up as prince in Kiev, and declared that it should be the mother of Russian cities. The Varangians, Slavs, and others who accompanied him, were called Russes…
    There was at the time but one Slavic race including the Slavs who settled along the Danube and were subjugated by the Magyars, as well as the Moravians, the Czechs, the Lyakhs, and the Polyanians, the last of whom are now called Russes*…

    *Of these same Lyakhs some were called Polyanians, some Lutichians, some Mazovians, and still others Pomorians. Certain Slavs setded also on the Dnieper, and were likewise called Polyanians. Still others were named Derevlians, because they lived in the forests. Some also lived between the Pripet’ and the Dvina, and were known as Dregovichians.

    There were no ‘native “Russian” Slavs’ before the Varangians (and the Greeks) gave the name ‘Rus’/ Ρωσσία to the new polity centered on Kiev. Slavs came from the South-West and mixed with various ‘native’ populations and with the Varangians.

  479. melanf says:

    Rus’ included a lot of ‘foreigners’ from its very inception. The ‘Russian Primary Chronicle’ knew some things.
    6368-6370 (860-862)

    In 862 there was no ‘foreigners’ because in 862 Russia and Russians did not exist

    • Replies: @Seraphim
  480. @songbird

    DNA testing companies often sell their product in part based on finding out you have some famous male ancestor. That’s part of what makes me skeptical. In order for it to be more credible, I think you’d have to have a lot of ancient DNA pre-Mongol expansion, which demonstrated that it was hard to find in Mongolia before Genghis. I’m not sure there is such a dataset. I don’t know if they cremated their dead.

    I have a book about Genghis Khan which speculates that, although it is statistically possible, another scenario is that it was that might not have been Genghis Khan himself, but rather someone (or perhaps more probable a group of brothers or cousins) in his entourage, who received part of the bounty (i.e. women) after the conquest of each local area.

    If it were a group of cousin-soldiers going around whoring across half of Eurasia, then it might not be so implausible.

    • Agree: songbird
  481. Seraphim says:
    @melanf

    That’s aproximately true:

    “In the year 6360 (852), the fifteenth of the indiction, 15 at the accession of the Emperor Michael, the land of Rus’ was first named. We have determined this date from the fact that in the reign of this Emperor Russes attacked Tsar’grad, as is written in the Greek Chronicle…”

    • Replies: @melanf
    , @AP
  482. melanf says:
    @Seraphim

    That’s aproximately true:

    “In the year 6360 (852), the fifteenth of the indiction, 15 at the accession of the Emperor Michael, the land of Rus’ was first named

    These Rus were not “Russian”, just like early medieval tribe of “Scotts” (which came from Ireland) were not Scotsman

    • Agree: Mr. Hack
    • Replies: @Seraphim
  483. Mr. Hack says:
    @Guillaume Tell

    Let us know if you make it to Avignon. I have a friend who lives there that I have not yet visited. It would be interesting to hear somebody else’s impressions of the area…

  484. melanf says:
    @AP

    Since settlement would not be mass it might not be mentioned. 229 clans might be descended from 60 Western settlers.

    60 Catholic feudal lords moved to Russia, but this was not noted by medieval sources? Nonsense

    many Tatar females married into non-Tatar families, so clans would not have originate from them. But pretty much all of the Westerners who came to Rus were males

    Did you learn that from clairvoyance? medieval sources do not have such information.

    By 1400s they were ethnic foreigners who regarded people of Moscow as a separate ethnicity. As demonstrated by Volhynian Chronicles

    Ha, well then, in the early 17th century “intellectuals” of the Academy in Kiev, wrote about a single Russian ethnos. However, the writings of intellectuals are irrelevant in this case . 90% Russian aristocracy of “Lithuanian” origin is the feudal lords of Upper Oka Principalities, which in the 15th century massively defected (from the rule of Lithuania) under the rule of Moscow. Wikipedia-the cesspool. but in this case events are described adequately https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upper_Oka_Principalities

    The strengthening alliance of Lithuanian rulers with Roman Catholic Poland caused shifts in the balance of power in the region. Most Orthodox rulers of the Upper Principalities, therefore, started to look to Moscow for protection against Lithuanian expansionism. Towards the end of the 15th century, most of these princelings had moved to the Muscovite court. In 1494 Lithuania finally renounced her claims to the region.”

    I think these lords themselves have created a certificate about they “nationality”.

    So? Suppose hypothetically that Rurik was a Martian or Atlant, or a relic Neanderthal. But in any case (even if he was a Martian, Atlant and Neanderthal) he was not a foreigner because in his time there was no Russia and there was no Russian people. The descendants of Rurik made Russian (from different tribes, including the Scandinavian), and Rurik himself is an ancestor of any ethnic Russian in many lines.

    Irrelevant. If a group of Chinese or Greeks settled in Russia in 800 AD their descendants would still be of non-native origin, if you consider ethnic Russians to be natives of Russia. Because their ancestors came from other lands.

    Slavs came to the land of the future of Russia in the 7th century ad; Scandinavians (not Swedes – in those days the Swedes did not exist) settled on the land of the future of Russia in the 8th century ad (the first known settlement of Scandinavians dates back to 750). Russian appeared not earlier than the 10th century, as a result of mixing these (and other) tribes.

    Try to prove that the Scandinavians settled on the lands of the future of Russia in the 8-9 centuries “foreigners” in contrast to the Slavs (who settled on these lands in the 7th century). Or Slavs in Russia, foreigners too?

  485. AP says:

    Since settlement would not be mass it might not be mentioned. 229 clans might be descended from 60 Western settlers.

    60 Catholic feudal lords moved to Russia, but this was not noted by medieval sources? Nonsense

    Why do you think there would be surviving documention of every knight moving to Russia in the 12th century? Silly idea.

    many Tatar females married into non-Tatar families, so clans would not have originate from them. But pretty much all of the Westerners who came to Rus were males

    Did you learn that from clairvoyance? medieval sources do not have such information.

    As in your silly idea that Pushkin was part African because of documents, rather than because of actual African descent, your logic fails you.

    Family origins were recorded by male line. Therefore, Russian noble families who came from Western adventurers originated with Western males to moved to Russia. Do you think that many Western females moved to Russia and started noble families?

    Do you really think many single females came from the West to start noble dynasties in what is now Russia?

    In contrast, however, both males and female Tatars came to Russia. Rusia was ruled by Tatars, novles in Russia took Tatar brides.

    “By 1400s they were ethnic foreigners who regarded people of Moscow as a separate ethnicity. As demonstrated by Volhynian Chronicles”

    Ha, well then, in the early 17th century “intellectuals” of the Academy in Kiev, wrote about a single Russian ethnos.

    And yet Khmelytsky needed a translator when negotiating with the Muscovites.

    Today Russians and some Ukrainians think the two peoples are one ethnos. But in the 15th century the Muscovites were viewed as foreigners. And Muscovites who moved to GDL were viewed as such.

    90% Russian aristocracy of “Lithuanian” origin is the feudal lords of Upper Oka Principalities

    Trubetskoy and Golitzin families are descended from Gediminid monarchs of Lithuania.

    Most Orthodox rulers of the Upper Principalities, therefore, started to look to Moscow for protection against Lithuanian expansionism.

    Serbs, Bulgarians and Armenians have also looked to Russia for protection and sometimes moved there. So in your world this makes them not-foreigners?

    “Irrelevant. If a group of Chinese or Greeks settled in Russia in 800 AD their descendants would still be of non-native origin, if you consider ethnic Russians to be natives of Russia. Because their ancestors came from other lands. ”

    Slavs came to the land of the future of Russia in the 7th century ad; Scandinavians (not Swedes – in those days the Swedes did not exist) settled on the land of the future of Russia in the 8th century ad (the first known settlement of Scandinavians dates back to 750).

    If you think of Russians as a basically Slavic people than all non-Slavs are foreign relative to Russians. They are non-Russian. So if a clan of Chinese has lived in Russian territory since the 6th century – they are still not Russians. Peoples such as Mordvins have lived in Russia since before the Slavs came. They are not ethnic Russians.

    So Scandinavians are not ethnic Russians. Neither are Tatars. Or Mordvins. Or Chinese.

    So a half-Tatar, half-Mordvin or half-Tatar, half-Rurikid is not an ethnic Russian. Though they may be Russian in loyalty. The Russian elite, such as the German Empress convert to Orthodoxy Alexandra, were usually non-Russian by ethnicity, the only question was how long ago their non-Russian ancestors became Russian by identification.

  486. AP says:
    @Seraphim

    The Scandinavian Rus gave their name to what would later be called Russia. But they were not Russians, just as King Phillip of Spain was not a Filipino.

  487. melanf says:

    Why do you think there would be surviving documention of every knight moving to Russia in the 12th century?

    Because of chronicle, made by Orthodox monks. For them, the baptism of an aristocratic Catholic into Orthodoxy is a triumph of the true faith.
    Resettlement from Catholic Europe (Resettlement of aristocratic founders of the 250 clans) completely unknown in the annals – it’s just nonsense

    As in your silly idea that Pushkin was part African because of documents, rather than because of actual African descent, your logic fails you.

    Foreign ancestors Pushkin on maternal lines perfectly documented in numerous sources, and they are real. “Prussian” ancestors of Pushkin (on his father’s side) are unknown in medieval sources, and they are a myth (this is proved beyond any doubt, read http://www.okorneva.ru/publikatsii–konovalova-yuriya-vitalevicha/o-drevneyshih-predkah-a-s-pushkina-sokraschennyiy-variant/ )

    female Tatars came to Russia…novles in Russia took Tatar brides.

    Well, there are three known cases of such marriages in 250 years. Lithuanian brides were married much more often. And there were no marriages with Catholics (as there were no Catholic immigrants)

    descended from Gedimin

    Some families certainly existed, but they were very few compared to the total number of the aristocracy “from Lithuania”

    Most Orthodox rulers of the Upper Principalities, therefore, started to look to Moscow for protection against Lithuanian expansionism.

    Serbs, Bulgarians and Armenians have also looked to Russia for protection…

    Well, unlike Armenia, Upper Principalities is “great Russia”. It’s a funny turn of discussion, isn’t it?

    • Replies: @AP
  488. melanf says:

    Slavs came to the land of the future of Russia in the 7th century ad; Scandinavians (not Swedes – in those days the Swedes did not exist) settled on the land of the future of Russia in the 8th century ad (the first known settlement of Scandinavians dates back to 750). Russian appeared not earlier than the 10th century, as a result of mixing these (and other) tribes. Try to prove that the Scandinavians settled on the lands of the future of Russia in the 8-9 centuries “foreigners” in contrast to the Slavs (who settled on these lands in the 7th century).

    If you think of Russians as a basically Slavic people than all non-Slavs are foreign relative to Russians

    From Britannica “Slavs are ethno-linguistic group who speak the various Slavic languages “. According to this criterion, the Rurik dynasty from the 9th century to the present day – certainly the Slavs.
    As for genetics, Russians are known to have different origins, and for example Russians from Arkhangelsk are genetically closer to Scandinavians than to Russians from Voronezh.

    So Scandinavians are not ethnic Russians.

    Scandinavians settled in 8-9 centuries on the lands of the future Russia (Russia which at that time does not exist) is certainly not Russian. But they are also certainly not Swedes, nor Norwegians, nor Danes (these Nations did not exist then). Slavs settled in the 7th century on the lands of the future Russia is certainly not Russian too.

    However, the Slavs and the Scandinavians 8-9 centuries in the lands of future Russia are the direct ancestors of the Russian. If you consider them foreigners – all inhabitants of the earth, without exception, the descendant of foreigners.

    • Replies: @AP
  489. AP says:
    @melanf

    Why do you think there would be surviving documention of every knight moving to Russia in the 12th century?

    Because of chronicle, made by Orthodox monks. For them, the baptism of an aristocratic Catholic into Orthodoxy is a triumph of the true faith.

    Chronicles would not cover every random knight who moved to Rus.

    As in your silly idea that Pushkin was part African because of documents, rather than because of actual African descent, your logic fails you.

    Foreign ancestors Pushkin on maternal lines perfectly documented in numerous sources

    Documentation was easier in 18h century than in 14th or 12th.

    But again – was Pushkin part African because of documents or because he had an African ancestor?
    To borrow from Bulgakov (descendant of Tatar tax collector Bulgak), you seem to believe that without documents there is no person.

    “Prussian” ancestors of Pushkin (on his father’s side) are unknown in medieval sources, and they are a myth (this is proved beyond any doubt, read http://www.okorneva.ru/publikatsii–konovalova-yuriya-vitalevicha/o-drevneyshih-predkah-a-s-pushkina-sokraschennyiy-variant/ )

    Link doesn’t work. I stated that Pushkin family itself might not be of German origin. However Chicherin and Golovins are from foreign origins.

    descended from Gedimin

    Some families certainly existed, but they were very few compared to the total number of the aristocracy “from Lithuania”

    Trubetskoy and Golitzin are major noble families, clearly of Lithuanian origin. Which ones are not?

    • Replies: @melanf
  490. AP says:
    @melanf

    From Britannica “Slavs are ethno-linguistic group who speak the various Slavic languages “. According to this criterion, the Rurik dynasty from the 9th century to the present day – certainly the Slavs.

    Not ethnic, so not Slavs. Even 11th century ones weren’t Slavs. Yaroslav the Wise was less than 50% Slavic, and he had a Swedish wife. His kids weren’t Slavs. They probably didn’t even speak a Slavic language at home. Their descendants weren’t of Slavic descent.

    Helga and Ingvar were in the 10th century.

    Russians:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russians

    Russians (Russian: русские, russkiye) are an East Slavic ethnic group native to Eastern Europe.

    However, the Slavs and the Scandinavians 8-9 centuries in the lands of future Russia are the direct ancestors of the Russian. If you consider them foreigners – all inhabitants of the earth, without exception, the descendant of foreigners.

    They are foreigners relative to Russians. Sure, Russians are foreigners relative to Neanderthals, but we are discussing people of foreign origin in Russia.

    Russia is a project of non-natives. Some who contributed to this project were very recent arrivals, like Catherine II. Others were descendants of foreigners who came long ago. Most were a mix of recent and long-ago arrivals to the lands of the northeastern Slavs whom they ruled.* They were of primarily of non-native descent.

    Actual Russians, versus a mix of mostly Germans, Tatars, Scandinavians, Lithuanians etc. who feel Russian and love the Russian idea – were mostly peasants, whom you despise. And this difference is a striking contrast to most peoples, where royal families may have been outsiders but the elite as a whole were not. Prussian Junkers were not mostly of Polish, Danish etc. origin. For example Hindenburg:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_von_Hindenburg#Early_life

    Almost all Germans. In contrast, as we have seen in all cases (we discussed Nabakov, Pushkin, etc. here) mostly non-Russian origins among Russian elites, only question is how far back.

    *Vladimir was an early example. Half-Scandinavian at least, came to power with Norse troops, clearly Scandinavian guy. He is the one who forced the Slavs to abandon their old gods for the true God. Yaroslav, mostly Scandinavian, with his Swedish wife – gave the laws to the Slavs. Then these people mixed with Tatar princesses, Lithuanians etc. Power was increased with Catherine II, a German immigrant. Her German descendants then ruled. Etc.

    • Replies: @melanf
  491. Seraphim says:
    @melanf

    Neither were the inhabitants of ‘the Ukraine’ (the Cossacks who boasted that they were the descendants of the [Jewish] Khazars, if that’s what you seem to imply, because Daniel of Halych was anointed ‘King of Russia’ by the Pope, to whom he turned after he failed to be recognized as Grand Prince of All Rus’ by the Mongols, against the (legitimate) Suzdalian line of Vladimir Monomakh, Yuri Dolgoruki, Andrey Bogoliubski, Vsevolod the Big Nest, Yaroslav Vsevolodovici, Alexander Nevski (line recognized by the ‘Byzantine’ Emperor – who was actually the overlord of the Grand Princes of Ρωσσία* since Vladimir the Great, directly linked to the Imperial family -).
    Yaroslav Osmomyl was rather a Hungarian-Khazar ‘Prince’ (and a rather nasty piece of work at that).

    @ tribe of “Scotts” (which came from Ireland) were not Scotsman
    Are the ethnic French citizens of Normandie French or ‘Northmen’? FYI, Normandie is a region of the “République française”, in which a band of ‘Norse’ plunderers were settled by the French Kings in the 10th century AD who became in a very short time more French than the French (especially when they invaded England and gave birth to the “British Aristocracy”, at least until the Hanoverian-Saxe-Coburg-Gotha-Windsors took the mantle of ‘Britishness’, spiced with some “British-Israelitism” – quite the same as the ‘Khazar’ spice in the Galician-‘Ruthenian’ broth).

    *Phrases like: “Russia is a project of non-natives. Some who contributed to this project were very recent arrivals, like Catherine II” should be dismissed out of hand because of their obvious imbecility (the names of Russia and Russians do come definitely from the Varangians, Varegoi, Scandinavians, not from the Sarmatian ‘Rosho (red) Alani’, supposedly the ‘native’ Russians, inhabiting conveniently the regions of Volhynia-Galicia).

    • Replies: @melanf
  492. melanf says:
    @Seraphim

    Neither were the inhabitants of ‘the Ukraine’ (the Cossacks who boasted that they were the descendants of the [Jewish] Khazars, if that’s what you seem to imply

    You’ve mistaken me for someone else. I did not write anything like this….

    • Replies: @Seraphim
  493. Seraphim says:
    @melanf

    If it wasn’t you who wrote: “These Rus were not “Russian”, just like early medieval tribe of “Scotts” (which came from Ireland) were not Scotsman” @#488, then I apologize.
    But I found it too much in tune with the ridiculous verbal equilibristics of ‘[Moskaly] Russia is not Rus’, the true “‘Russians’ are the ‘Rusyn’ (peasants)”, ventilated on this site by zealous (but ignorant) workers of the (Po)Roshen(ko) ‘chocolate factory’.

    • Replies: @AP
  494. melanf says:
    @AP

    Rurikids -Swedish origin.

    Scandinavian origin. As you can learn from any history book – the descendants of Rurik established the Russian (and Russian people) from a mixture of Slavic, Scandinavian and Finno-Ugric tribes. This descendants of Rurik is a rare case of the Russian people, the whose aboriginal origin (paternal) 100% known.

    Princes of Smolensk ….. One of them married the daughter of Khan Mengu-Timur; she baptized and named Anna. So a family of mixed Tatar descent.

    Ivan Kalita’s wife came from another line of Smolensk princes (i.e. the daughter of Mengu-Timur was not among her ancestors)

    Velyaminov family – alleged Swedish origin

    This as always mythical genealogy http://aksakoff.ru/2010/02/veliaminovi/ , http://www.molgen.org/wiki/doku.php?id=ru:y:%D1%88%D0%B8%D0%BC%D0%BE%D0%BD_%D0%B0%D1%84%D1%80%D0%B8%D0%BA%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%B8%D1%87

    So we have a Rurikid (native) core to which was added other Rurikids , Lithuanians, Greeks, Western Rus, and no Tatars. Very few native Russian Slavs. This is a more aboriginal dynasty than any European dynasty of this era.

    • Replies: @AP
  495. melanf says:
    @AP

    Yaroslav the Wise was less than 50% Slavic

    Once again-the Slavs (according to any encyclopedia) is a language (not “genetic”) group, and Yaroslav the Wise was undoubtedly a Slavic, as his native language – Slavic.

    If you use the genetic criterion, the Russians have a different origin – southern Russian (together with the poles and Slovaks) belong to the basic “Slavic” genetic cluster, but Northern Russians are genetically very distant from all the Slavs and are genetically closer to Finnish tribes and Scandinavians. So “genetically” Russian include groups having origin different from the rest of the Slavs.

    Helga and Ingvar were in the 10th century

    And named son and grandchildren by Slavic names.

    They are (Rurik scandinavians) foreigners relative to Russians.

    The English and Britons are foreigners. in relation to the British, the Franks and Gauls – “foreigners” in relation to the French, etc., etc. We are all descendants of foreigners (well, except Ukrainians of course) 🙂

    • Replies: @AP
  496. melanf says:
    @AP

    “Prussian” ancestors of Pushkin (on his father’s side) are unknown in medieval sources, and they are a myth (this is proved beyond any doubt, read http://www.okorneva.ru/publikatsii–konovalova-yuriya-vitalevicha/o-drevneyshih-predkah-a-s-pushkina-sokraschennyiy-variant/ )

    Link doesn’t work.

    https://historicaldis.ru/blog/43425870389/O-DREVNEYSHIH-PREDKAH-A.-S.-PUSHKINA

    female Tatars came to Russia…novles in Russia took Tatar brides.

    Perhaps it is you drew? So to say visualize your uh … fantasies with the help of brush and paint? 🙂 🙂 🙂

  497. AP says:
    @melanf

    Rurikids -Swedish origin.

    Scandinavian origin

    You are correct on this point. They were from what is now Sweden but of course the idea of Sweden did not exist at that time. They were Norsemen, or Scandinavians. Not Slavs.

    the descendants of Rurik established the Russian (and Russian people) from a mixture of Slavic, Scandinavian and Finno-Ugric tribes.

    Slavs and Finno-Ugric people mixed on their own. Rurikids were their overlords, like English ruling various peoples in India.

    This descendants of Rurik is a rare case of the Russian people, the whose aboriginal origin (paternal) 100% known.

    Origin is outside Russia. Not native.

    • Replies: @Mikhail
  498. AP says:
    @melanf

    Yaroslav the Wise was less than 50% Slavic

    Once again-the Slavs (according to any encyclopedia) is a language (not “genetic”) group

    It is both – “ethnolinguistic” . An African who speaks Russian is not a Slav. He is a Russian-speaking African. Likewise a Scandinavian who speaks a Slavic language is not a Slav either. Especially if he speaks Norse also.

    Yaroslav the Wise was undoubtedly a Slavic, as his native language – Slavic.

    He also spoke Norse. And his wife was a Swedish princes. Likely he spoke Norse with her and their children.

    Helga and Ingvar were in the 10th century

    And named son and grandchildren by Slavic names.

    Slavic names became popular even in Denmark. But Ingvar and Helga provided their son with a Scandinavian tutor, Asmud, so he was not assimilated. Wiki states “The tradition of employing Varangian tutors for the sons of ruling princes survived well into the 11th century.”

    Asmud:

    https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%90%D1%81%D0%BC%D1%83%D0%B4

    Sviatoslav’s coruler was the Scandinavian Sveneld.

  499. AP says:
    @Seraphim

    You are muddled again.

    ‘[Moskaly] Russia is not Rus’, the true “‘Russians’ are the ‘Rusyn’ (peasants)”,

    Nobody claimed that here.

  500. Mikhail says: • Website
    @AP

    Slavs and Finno-Ugric people mixed on their own. Rurikids were their overlords, like English ruling various peoples in India.

    Wrong for several reasons.

    A more appropriate analogy highlights the German origin of the Brit monarchs. In any event, the Riuriks over the course of time readily adopted the land of Rus as theirs, while distancing themselves from whatever Scandinavian ties they had.

    In comparison, the Brits in India saw themselves as Brits first.

  501. Mikhail says: • Website
    @AnonFromTN

    UoT is Svido leaning.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  502. Mikhail says: • Website
    @AnonFromTN

    The country on Nikki’s watch suffered a humiliating defeat at the hands of Japan, a second-rate power, all because of defective shells supplied Russian Navy.

    Other key reasons as well. Regardless, major powers periodically lose to others who aren’t as strong. Reference Britain in the American colonies and the US in Southeast Asia, as well as the USSR in Afghanistan.

    • Replies: @Seraphim
  503. Seraphim says:
    @Mikhail

    Russians were not losing the war. After the victorious battle of Mukden, the Japanese realized that another victory of the kind, they won’t be able to continue the war, being on the brink of bankruptcy. They appealed to the Americans to mediate for a settlement with the Russians. The Japanese achieved less than they were expecting.
    In 1905 Japan occupied the southern half of Sakhalin. Today Russia occupy the whole of Sakhalin plus the Kuril Islands and the Japanese population was evacuated.

    • Replies: @Mikhail
  504. @Mikhail

    The people I had contacts with there were normal. That does not mean that there aren’t abnormal people in UoT, particularly in the “humanities” departments. I only know basic science people.

    • Replies: @Mikhail
  505. Mikhail says: • Website
    @AnonFromTN

    The people I had contacts with there were normal. That does not mean that there aren’t abnormal people in UoT, particularly in the “humanities” departments. I only know basic science people.

    Such is the situation, when comparing the hard sciences (based more on non-debatable equations/formulas), with the soft ones leaving enough wiggle room for BS.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
  506. @Mikhail

    I spend roughly a month working in a Budapest office with software developers and other IT specialists. The majority of them lean left. Even the ones leaning right have a strong cuckservative streak. And this in Hungary, a supposedly based and rightist nationalist country.

    I don’t think this “STEM leans right” meme has a lot to do with reality. It’s certainly not true of Silicon Valley.

    • Replies: @Mitleser
    , @Mikhail
    , @AnonFromTN
  507. songbird says:

    I knew a Hungarian family that came over in the early ’90s. Two young boys. The parents were scientists. They returned after only a few years – 3, I believe.

    One of the boys, now a man in his 30s, has dreadlocks. He was virtue signaling on social media about migrants, actually taking selfies at a migrant camp.

    How is something like this possible? Here’s my theory: the West is like a giant brain. There are innumerable connections – billions and billions. The whole of Europe is connected to the whole of the formally white Anglosphere. In effect, the millions of blacks, etc. in America, the millions of Muslim colonists in Europe get added together into some equation – for simplicity’s sake let’s say a total fraction of the West’s population. As a result, even countries that are still pretty white end up being pozzed.

    So, Hungary in 2019 isn’t even like the Northen US or Canada was when it was as white.

  508. Mitleser says:
    @reiner Tor

    I spend roughly a month working in a Budapest office with software developers and other IT specialists. The majority of them lean left. Even the ones leaning right have a strong cuckservative streak. And this in Hungary, a supposedly based and rightist nationalist country.

    “Based and rightist nationalist” does not seem to apply to Budapest.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
  509. @Mitleser

    It’s still far to the right of most of Western Europe, Fidesz and Jobbik together got well over a third (almost half) of the vote there. Both of them are to the right of AfD, maybe right up there with Front national.

  510. Mikhail says: • Website
    @reiner Tor

    I don’t dispute your observation. My point concerns how the hard sciences instruction isn’t as politicized on account of the very manner of such subjects, when compared to the soft sciences, where there’s wiggle room for propping the otherwise qualitatively suspect work.

  511. @reiner Tor

    A lot of STEM people lean common sense (not all, surely). On some issues this means right, or even far right in current parlance, on others it means left, or even far left. Both established left and right have too many cucks to look attractive to a person with a modicum of common sense. Silicon Valley is so far removed from normal people that a lot of them don’t even know what to do in a supermarket (like mad witch).

  512. Mikhail says: • Website
    @Seraphim

    Russians were not losing the war. After the victorious battle of Mukden, the Japanese realized that another victory of the kind, they won’t be able to continue the war, being on the brink of bankruptcy. They appealed to the Americans to mediate for a settlement with the Russians. The Japanese achieved less than they were expecting.
    In 1905 Japan occupied the southern half of Sakhalin. Today Russia occupy the whole of Sakhalin plus the Kuril Islands and the Japanese population was evacuated.

    True and much different from the bogus take that the Japanese were denied the “fruits of victory”, on account of some White conspiracy.

    Notwithstanding, the Russians for their part weren’t so gung ho in continuing that war.

    • Replies: @Seraphim
  513. Seraphim says:
    @Mikhail

    I must admit that the Russians were not gung ho to go to war at all, but actually they never did. But the war was imposed on them (like the first WW) and they fought with determination. If anyone was ‘denied the fruits of victory’ it was the Russians. The ‘White conspiracy’ was to save the Japanese from a crushing defeat, which would have come on land, notwithstanding the ‘shame’ of Tsushima. It was not the ‘revolution’ which lost the war. It is clear, at least to me, that Russia thought more economic to take a ‘time out’ and take a step back to better jump. Ten years after Russia was stronger than at the beginning of the war. Again she had to be ‘contained’. And after 100 years of unimaginable hardships, she is still there, ‘resurgent’ and ‘defiant’. That should give us pause. Remember Bismarck.

    • Replies: @Mikhail
  514. Mikhail says: • Website
    @Seraphim

    Among Western circles, there’s the view that Russia was getting unnecessarily aggressive in the Far-east – something that smacks of irony, given how (as an example) Britain was there and in numerous other parts of the world.

    Russia was thought to have rebounded well after the Russo-Japanese War and its internal revolution at that point in time. The timing of the start of WW I and how it was fought contributed to Russia’s downfall.

    https://www.strategic-culture.org/news/2017/03/22/reexamining-russias-past.html

    • Replies: @Seraphim
  515. Seraphim says:
    @Mikhail

    The link you provide is a bit rumbling, it seems to give some credence to the propagandistic myth that the unprepared Russia irresponsibly started the war, and pursued it incompetently, provoking the revolution: “in 1914, Russia wasn’t in a good position to launch the kind of offensive war it did against Germany. That action led to great suffering on the Russian side, which greatly contributed to the demise of the Russian Empire and the greater potential for a Communist advance”.

    The fact is that Russia did not launch the ‘offensive war’. It was Germany that declared war on Russia and started the invasion of France before declaring war, irresponsibly believing that England would not intervene.

    • Replies: @Mikhail
    , @Mikhail
  516. Mikhail says: • Website
    @Seraphim

    In terms of military context, Russia had in fact launched an offensive into Germany.

    • Replies: @Seraphim
  517. Mikhail says:
    @Seraphim

    On the subject of Russia in WW I, you might find this documentary of interest:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-ra6R-iPDI&feature=youtu.be English

    https://yadi.sk/mail?hash=UhaL5ykQkNi%2B49cH4qmgvK40zv6Wq8beFM3wSB3oqaJteU%2BgiQfmFguMrsKuAm0Eq%2FJ6bpmRyOJonT3VoXnDag%3D%3D Russian

    They were not ‘Super Heroes’, just ordinary Cossacks from the Kuban Region. But it fell to them to change the Geopolitical situation in the Persian Gulf Region. Sent on a suicide mission to try to rescue their British allies surrounded by Turkish forces,100 Russian Cossack volunteers not only fulfilled their mission against all odds, but managed to come back alive.

    In the Spring of 1916 the British army fighting against the Turks and Germans in the Middle Eastern Front of the Great War was facing starvation and defeat. They asked their Russian allies for help. The desperate 200-mile sortie lay across treacherous mountain passes, deadly deserts and plains full of hostile nomadic tribes hired by Germans to attack the valiant party. Chances of survival were next to zero.

    But in spite of desert storms, constant ambushes and deprivation, the heroes were able to tip the battleground in favor of the Allies and become Legends.

    Tsar Nicholas II of Russia awarded St. George Crosses to the entire Company, and his cousin, King George V of England, awarded Cossack Captain Vassily Gamaly and his officers British Military Crosses for exemplary gallantry.

    The Russian St. George Cross and the British Military Cross represent the Valor, Gallantry and Self-Sacrifice that is the Greatness and Glory of the Human Spirit. The Legendary 100 will forever live in Military History as a unique Special Forces operation worthy of the Great Heroic 300 SPARTANS.”

  518. Seraphim says:
    @Mikhail

    Actually, the Germans fully counted on the Russian ‘unpreparedness’. Their plans were that France would be dealt swiftly with, because the pace of Russian mobilization should have been in their calculations much slower than it really was. In fact the main direction of offensive was against Austro-Hungary. After the quick defeat of France the whole might of the invincible German Army would have been unleashed on the ‘unprepared’ Russians. Although dismissed laughingly as ‘conspiracy theory’, ‘spy mania’, it is certain that the defeat of Tannenberg was due mainly to treason or dereliction of duty on a scale amounting to treason.
    And there is also the ambiguous policy of Britain: Germany had to be defeated, but Russians must not have been allowed to win the war. Clearly stated by Lloyd George to Kerensky: “[this is not] a policy which suits the British Empire… a great, gigantic, colossal, growing Russia rolling onwards towards Persia and the borders of Afghanistan and India as the greatest menace the British Empire could be confronted with».

    • Replies: @Mikhail
  519. Mikhail says: • Website
    @Seraphim

    As noted:

    https://www.strategic-culture.org/news/2017/03/22/reexamining-russias-past.html

    In his memoirs, Alexander Kerensky quotes British Prime Minister David Lloyd George’s basis for Britain’s non-support to the Russian Civil War era Whites. Kerensky references this excerpt from Lloyd George’s September 17, 1919 House of Commons speech:

    «Denikin and Kolchak are fighting for two main objects. The first is the destruction of Bolshevism and the restoration of good government in Russia. Upon that, they could get complete unanimity among all the forces, but the second is that they are fighting for a reunited Russia. Well, it is not for me to say whether that this is a policy which suits the British Empire. There was a very great statesman…Lord Beaconsfield, who regarded a great, gigantic, colossal, growing Russia rolling onwards towards Persia and the borders of Afghanistan and India as the greatest menace the British Empire could be confronted with».

    • Replies: @Seraphim
  520. Seraphim says:
    @Mikhail

    Yes, sure. Keep in mind that the ‘Great Game’ started when Ivan Grozny initiated the process of ‘great, gigantic, colossal, growing Russia rolling onwards towards Persia’ by subduing Kazan and extending towards Siberia, blocking the ‘free way’ that the “Mystery and Company of Merchant Adventurers for the Discovery of Regions, Dominions, Islands, and Places unknown” was hoping to cut through the ‘uncharted’ (in their mind) regions of Tartaria. Actually, even before, by some 700 years!

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