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The Absolute State of British Nationalism
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On May 6, there was a big free speech march through Central London jointly organized by the Democratic Football Lads Alliance and Veterans Against Terrorism.

Many of the big names in the British Alt Lite were attending, so I decided to show up myself. (I appear in the sidelines a few times in this video of the march).

The march began at Speakers Corner in Hyde Park, a traditional meeting point for dissidents, preachers, and assorted ranting weirdos, went through central London, and culminated at the entrance to Downing Street.

I estimate turnout at 1,000-2,000 initially, swelling to 5,000 at the end. There were at least a couple of hundred police officers watching over the event. What I found interesting was that all of the “enforcement” was done by the event organizers. For instance, the police didn’t want the marchers to occupy the pavement, and so the event organizers would bark at rally participants to keep on the main thoroughfare whenever they strayed off. This is a huge contrast with Russian protest marchers, whose liberal organizers tend to be unremittingly hostile to and dismissive of the police.

Demographics:

  • Main component were white men, muscular-fat, tattooed prole types, the sort you associate with football hooligans;
  • Some lankier, muscular men with fashy haircuts;
  • The women were almost all prole whites – tend to lean on the pudgy side, lots of tattoos, fake tans;
  • Smattering of Based Black Guys (no women);
  • Foreigners: Americans in MAGA hats, tons of Poles, Mediterraneans, a few Israelis;
  • No Muslims.

Towards the end of the march, a number of people gave short speeches about Islam and freedom of speech.

First guy referred to a Belfast preacher who was charged with hate crimes for criticizing Islam, and then he quoted him directly, e.g. “Islam is a Satanic religion!”, and eliciting massive cheers. Clever way of avoiding hate charges yourself. Just quote other people.

Second guy was some comedian, who condemned Islam because… erm, Kuwaiti women aren’t allowed to get their tits out. (sic). Also “what about all the gay Muslims?”

Third guy was Gerard Batten, current head of UKIP. Boring, don’t recall what he said.

Fourth gal was Anne Marie Waters, head of For Britain. She had the best speech IMO, she’s a great rabble-rouser.

Fifth and last up the stage was Tommy Robinson, who was very much forgettable.

Well, apart from the finale, when he welcomed a drag queen to sing up the stage to prove that New Labour are the real transphobes.

Overall, it’s hard to remain optimistic about the prospects for British nationalism. They managed to bring out a total of about 5,000 people in the capital city on a sunny Sunday, and not even in the name of nationalism as such, but in the name of free speech – or more specifically, the right to make fun of Muslims without going to jail or getting kicked off Twitter. Which is also a laudable goal, but it isn’t quite the same thing.

Compare and contrast with the march of 100,000 nationalists in Warsaw, Poland earlier this year which didn’t end in them collectively cucking to a tranny.

***

london-march-1

Police began to gather early.

london-march-20

There were some antifa, but they didn’t try to disrupt the rally, probably because of the heavy police presence.

london-march-19

Facebook and Twitter censorship against Alt Right voices were a big issue. Note Based Black Guy on the left.

london-march-18

The Chad Preacher: “The Bible guarantees free speech, not the Koran.”

london-march-17

Vegans.

london-march-16

Random based britbong: “Not a commie maggot in sight.”

london-march-15

Based Thot.

london-march-14

Based Black Guy.

london-march-13

Literal AngloZionists. :)

london-march-12

Leaving Hyde Park.

london-march-11

Unironically based Brit.

london-march-10

Britbong biker gang… quaint if underwhelming.

london-march-9

Shepherding deplorables off the sidewalks.

london-march-8

london-march-7

There were probably around 5,000 people in attendance, which is around the size of your average Navalny rally. But unlike the latter, nationalist protests are never going to make top of /r/worldnews.

london-march-6

Speeches in front of Downing Street.

london-march-5

Based Fedora Guy.

london-march-4

March no further.

london-march-3

Anne Marie Waters.

london-march-2

The end.

 
• Category: Ideology • Tags: Alt Right, Free Speech, The AK, Travel, United Kingdom 
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  1. What about Count Dankula?

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
    , @Randal
  2. DFH says:

    Compare and contrast

    • LOL: Felix Keverich
  3. Interesting, if depressing post, thanks. Britain seems pretty much gone, hard to see how there could be positive change there.

    • Replies: @TheJester
  4. @DFH

    One interesting contrast between 2nd and 3rd picture is Union jack vs St George’s cross. Which probably says something about the erosion of Britishness over the last few decades.
    Pretty depressing though…”does equality not apply to Islamists?” is a really lame slogan.

    • Agree: Greasy William
    • Replies: @Randal
    , @songbird
  5. In a,country where the brother of the future king is the soon-to-be husband of a woke black woman, white nationalism will not get much Establishment support.

    • Replies: @LondonBob
    , @Art Deco
  6. CM says:

    Let’s be honest, most of them would happily deny other people their free speech if given the power. It’s a bit like that Katie Hopkins woman that’s always preaching about free speech, but unironically supports censoring and deleting accounts (on Twitter and eBay) that are supportive of Palestinian freedom, while at the same time condemning Twitter for deleting Alt-Right accounts. They’re just angry because it’s mostly their side that’s getting muzzled by Twitter or the government, but they’d happily do it to the other side and they’re not embarassed to admit that.

    • Replies: @leopard
  7. Why in Kek’s name were the vegans there?

  8. Randal says:

    Well, nationalism’s complicated in this country. Should one be British nationalist, or English nationalist? Should one go along with those who seek to align British or English nationalism with anti-muslim sentiment, basically to benefit Israel and the jewish lobby? A real British nationalism would recognise the problems caused by all over-influential foreign cultures, especially including both islam and judaism. Is the primary threat immigration from racially and religiously different continents, or is it absorption into Europe?

    And of course most “nationalist” politicians are quite happy to kowtow to the corrosive doctrines of political correctness on every issue other than their own personal hobgoblin. Thus a fanatically anti-muslim supposed nationalist will happily condemn “racists”, “antisemites” and “homophobes”, promote feminism just because muslims tend to be conservative in that area, and share a platform with a sexual deviant.

    More vitally, a real British nationalism would (as Enoch Powell did) recognise the importance of the most immediate and damaging, and generally unrecognised (precisely because it is so all-pervasive), foreign influence – US political and economic power and American cultural pollution.

    Sadly, hostility to American power and influence is mostly on the political left, for historical reasons.

    Mass immigration is clearly a priority issue for right-thinking nationalists (ie not leftist Catalan/ScotNat style “nationalists”) anywhere.

    Essentially there is no coherent nationalist movement in England today.

  9. @Daniel Chieh

    This was still at Speaker’s Corner, I assume they weren’t actually associated with the free speech march.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  10. Randal says:
    @German_reader

    One interesting contrast between 2nd and 3rd picture is Union jack vs St George’s cross. Which probably says something about the erosion of Britishness over the last few decades.

    The decline of the Union Jack was a side effect of the suppression of the National Front and British Movement resistance to mass immigration in the 1960s – 1980s, when it was smeared as “racist”. It probably also reflects the rise of Welsh and Scottish separatism (neither movement deserves the term nationalist, both being basically leftist movements that want to see their own putative countries absorbed into the EU and swamped by mass immigration out of fear of being “racist”).

    Also the cross of St George is the English football fans’ symbol.

    • Replies: @DFH
    , @German_reader
  11. There were some antifa, but they didn’t try to disrupt the rally, probably because . . .

    Probably because they secretly approved of the anti-nationalist, anti-Christian leaders of this rally.

  12. Seraphim says:

    The Israeli flag says it all. British Israelism.

    • Replies: @DFH
  13. songbird says:
    @German_reader

    Definitely. Of course, I am sure you know the Union Jack is a sort of amalgam between the English St. George’s Cross and the Scottish Cross of St. Andrew. But, I’d not sure if it was damaged more by the Scottish independence movement, traitorous politicians who stood in front of it, or just the direct attack on native Brits, who want to reclaim their ethnic identity, rather than being insipidly and very evilly labeled “white British.”

    That is another tangent: how many countries in Europe have crosses in their flags? At least, Britain, the Scandinavian countries, and Finland. I’d say that makes them explicitly Christian countries. Remarkable how feckless most of the politicians were.

  14. neutral says:

    All pointless, this condemnation of Islam is just a way to look like a rebel but still remain kind of respectable. The real problem is mass non white immigration, miscegenation and the jew, whether some Pakistani is a devout muslim or if he is an Ali G type consumerist makes no difference, they are still not British. A non white land means the end of Britain, having these stupid free speech marches is not going to help British nationalism.

    • Agree: dfordoom
  15. @The Big Red Scary

    Don’t worry, our heroes have thrust a stake through the heart of Count Dankula and his corpse has been enbalmed with garlic.

    The citizens of uh… Britain need not fear to leave the comforts of their nightclubs and their dingy pubs at night no more.

    • Replies: @The Big Red Scary
  16. DFH says:
    @Seraphim

    British Israelism

    That doesn’t mean what I think you think it means

  17. songbird says:

    Interesting hypothetical – what would happen if the same size crowds as in Poland appeared in Britain? I think it is pretty obvious that the elite would attack them, probably even before they had a chance to grow to that size.

  18. DFH says:
    @Randal

    The decline of the Union Jack was a side effect of the suppression of the National Front and British Movement resistance to mass immigration in the 1960s – 1980s, when it was smeared as “racist”

    That may be the explanation for why it is used less in general, but I think the reason that nationalists specifically use it less is because of the attempt to co-opt ‘Britishness’ into a non-ethnic identity in a way that didn’t happen to Englishness (although might be now, given that I saw I think Sajid Javid describing himself as ‘English’ the other day)

    • Replies: @Randal
    , @Matra
  19. @Hyperborean

    But isn’t the Nazi pug still on the loose?

  20. @Randal

    Well, as I’ve written before my father’s English, and he makes a point of saying that he’s English, not British, because Englishness is an ethnic identity based on descent. I suppose it’s similar for at least some of those why fly the St George’s flag. Its popularity must at least to some extent be a result of Britishness having become largely meaningless.

    • Replies: @Randal
    , @Ali Choudhury
  21. Randal says:
    @DFH

    That’s certainly how I remember the use of the Union Jack becoming deeply unfashionable in the late C20th, and overtaken in most public displays by the Cross of St George, even amongst nationalists looking to distinguish themselves from the older NF/BM/BNP groups.

    the attempt to co-opt ‘Britishness’ into a non-ethnic identity in a way that didn’t happen to Englishness (although might be now, given that I saw I think Sajid Javid describing himself as ‘English’ the other day)

    This is clearly also an issue, and I can recall myself trying to use the distinction between British and English for that purpose (distinguishing between passport holders and their offspring (British), and descendants of the longstanding indigenous inhabitants of the islands (English/Scottish/Welsh/Irish)) in the past. Of course, a large part of the “English” sports teams are also not really English in that sense.

    Doesn’t surprise me at all that the likes of Javid are trying to co-opt Englishness as well.

    • Replies: @ogunsiron
  22. Randal says:
    @German_reader

    British was also seen as an ethnic identity, based on descent, in the early C20th and before. But clearly it had been manufactured as a political identity relatively recently, in the C18th, and so there was always a tendency for some to turn away from its ethnic identity aspects as a result. English versus British was always a complicated issue, after the Act of Uni0n.

    • Replies: @German_reader
  23. @songbird

    Well, if it hypothetically happened it would speak very highly of the courage of the British. A sizeable reason why the crowds are small and consist heavily of proles is that any public association with the rightists is “toxic” and essentially ends your life(look at the result of Kingdom Come: Deliverance’s developer, who has to defend himself nearly daily, and he lives in a “based” country). Even some of his colleagues engage in some form of ritual deprecation of him, always making sure they distance themselves from him, so they might hope to be able to be employable in the industry.

    In Poland, one can still hope to have a normal life and job after participating in such a rally. Can you imagine working at say, a high level corporate manager at a clothing store such as H&M? Imagine getting photographed and then someone brings it up to your boss at the next meeting. You’ll probably be fired immediately and, not only that, rapidly approach unemployability. If for some reason you seek legal recourse, most lawyers would probably not represent you; while the company that has fired you will likely use it for free publicity.

    Essentially any serious commitment to free speech is already over in most of the West as we know it. There’s no defense against economic terrorism, and successful rightists are more likely than not to have dependent families, making them particularly vulnerable.

    • Agree: Miro23
    • Replies: @songbird
    , @AaronB
  24. ‘… Compare and contrast with the march of 100,000 nationalists in Warsaw, Poland earlier this year which didn’t end in them collectively cucking to a tranny…’

    Come on. It’s always easier anywhere to get a large crowd for a pro-Government protest-how brave.

    Just like its easier to make comments that accord with other commenters than against them.

    • Agree: Simon in London
    • Replies: @neutral
    , @Daniel Chieh
    , @szopen
  25. utu says:

    Nationalist rallies won’t succeed under the wimpy slogan of freedom of speech. Nationalist rallies must be about kicking ass and not about begging for some rights. This was not a nationalist rally.

    • Replies: @ussr andy
    , @dfordoom
  26. @Randal

    British was also seen as an ethnic identity

    Maybe, implicitly it certainly had strong ethnic and religious characteristics, though its association with the imperial project was probably always a weakness. But nowadays it’s completely meaningless…basically limited to talking about the weather and nebulous “British values” like fair play or “tolerance” (which of course in reality aren’t shared by many of the “new Britons” with roots in places like Somalia or Pakistan). A bad joke really. The same is of course true of most of the civic identities in the Western world today.

  27. Randal says:
    @The Big Red Scary

    What about Count Dankula?

    I get the impression he’s pretty much a lefty, isn’t he? Which is why establishment leftists (comedians etc) feel safe in publicly backing his freedom of speech.

    Contrast with the treatment of figures who genuinely threaten the establishment, such as Alison Chabloz and Jez Turner, both charged with speech crimes as a direct result of jewish lobby influence (the latter convicted, the former awaiting a verdict):

    Free expression or permitted opinion: that is the choice – the conviction of Jez Turner

  28. neutral says:
    @anony-mouse

    Come on. It’s always easier anywhere to get a large crowd for a pro-Government protest-how brave.

    How brave, waving that Israeli flag. Such a rebellious act to proclaim oneself a loyal goy to zionism…

  29. @anony-mouse

    Just like its always easier to always troll in support of the current zeitgeist.

    • Replies: @anony-mouse
  30. jim jones says:

    The last time Brits engaged in nationalism we conquered half the planet. Most people think we should be cautious about starting down that path.

    • Replies: @Philip Owen
    , @Silva
  31. @Anatoly Karlin

    Neoreactionary passivism seems increasingly appealing.

  32. songbird says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    That is a good point about ostracism. It has become much easier in a number of ways. The internet – touted as a free speech tool. The proliferation of cameras. In England, some streets are completely covered arguably because of how some imported populations are especially crime-prone. Meanwhile cameras on phones which were touted as promoting citizen journalism and through it free speech, were also really tools against it.

    Colleges and universities which radicalize the impressionable, have also strongly influenced the political landscape through the rise of credentialism. If you spend a lot of time and resources to get a degree in a narrow field, that kind of really handicaps how much you can say.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  33. AaronB says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    This is because the alt-right completely neglects the financial basis of any revolution. They seem to think normal non heroic people will risk their lives for a slogan.

    If you look at any successful guerilla movement, like Hezbollah or Hamas for instance, they do not neglect the financial element – if Israel destroys your house, they give you a new one, and money to rebuild your life. And you are treated as a hero by the community.

    It’s all very well for Vox Day to thunder denunciations from his blog, and for Steve Sailer to smirkingly point out black deficiencies on a daily basis, but the complete absence of genuine communal organization with a firm financial basis, and real communal assistance, means the movement is not serious.

    Say what you will about Jews, they understand the importance of money. I believe you Asians are also quietly amassing wealth in America – I am willing to bet some day this will become the basis for political action.

    It would be interesting to see the alt-right leaders began organizing on a financial basis, formulating plans to acquire wealth, and using this wealth for communal purposes.

    Such practical organization would mark them as a serious movement – but right now it is merely ideological, with no capacity for practical organization. Because practical organization requires genuine communal effort, and genuine cooperation – something currently beyond the ability of whites.

  34. Jayce says:

    Between stuff like this and everything I’ve seen from the sidelines of the alt-right for years it’s hard to avoid the conclusion that Anglophones just can’t into this stuff at all. Maybe you should start making an effort to forget English to help Russian nationalism’s chances.

  35. @Daniel Chieh

    If it’s so easy how come everyone here isn’t doing it?

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  36. @AaronB

    It would be interesting to see the alt-right leaders began organizing on a financial basis, formulating plans to acquire wealth, and using this wealth for communal purposes.

    But its clearly more important to expend energy on battles between Vox Day and Jordan Peterson, or Paul Nehlen and Ricky Vaughn, or Michael Cernovich and Richard Spencer, or…

    As Mr. Karlin has talked about before, despite much talking, the nationalists are really low-trust(and for good reason, as the constant internecine infighting shows). This lack of social capital is brutal beyond even fiscal lack.

    • Agree: AaronB
    • Replies: @iffen
  37. @anony-mouse

    They learned from the Joker: if you’re good at anything, get CTR to pay you for it.

    You’re just not very good.

  38. Dmitry says:

    I don’t think this is a ‘nationalism’ march. Not only no ‘British for British’ sign, but no kind of nationalist signs or organizations are visible.

    This looks like a ‘free speech’, or ‘resistance against Islam’ march. Therefore, the celebration of sexual minorities, the black people, the Israel flag.

    The political movement is potentially a rational one, in a context where these people are happy with modern Western lifestyles (there is a very high standard of living in the UK), but where they are not happy with what they forecast of a future, in which they believe radical Islam will become a powerful demographic inside the UK (because of immigration).

  39. @songbird

    Essentially the Cathedral has its own ecosystem of radicalization complete with means of gaining social capital(callout culture, actual political references, and “grassroot” organizations that provide housing to antifa) as well as financial capita(insectionality parasites great and small, and billionaire virtue signalers).

    At this moment, it seems like one can only really hope that its innate dysfunctions ultimately lead to its collapse at some point. It probably will, but how much beauty will it destroy before it does so? Cancer is damn stubborn. Cancer usually kills its host even as it dies.

  40. @German_reader

    Plenty of non-whites wave around St George flags and wear flag-based shirts when it comes to sporting events like football where an English rather than a British team participates. It is seen as another national symbol.

  41. Matra says:
    @DFH

    That may be the explanation for why it is used less in general, but I think the reason that nationalists specifically use it less is because of the attempt to co-opt ‘Britishness’ into a non-ethnic identity in a way that didn’t happen to Englishness

    Right. When Blair got elected in 1997 the Union flag made a bit of a comeback of sorts because it now represented Cool Britannia rather than the stodgy old Rule Britannia. At the time I recall some pop stars, usually identified with the left, suddenly being proud to be British. Blacks born in England are now more likely to describe themselves as ‘British’ full stop without reference to their parents’ background, but rarely ever as ‘English’. I wonder if Sikhs in Scotland and blacks in Wales also call themselves ‘British’, or does the multiculti/prog nationalist image of those places make them more willing to embrace the local identity.

    • Replies: @Philip Owen
  42. LondonBob says:

    Never heard of it and I have no interest in faux British nationalism that is obviously Zionist backed Muslim bashing. The cast of speakers tells you what this is about.

  43. Randal says:

    Further to the above referenced conviction yesterday of Jez Turner for speechcrime in England, seemingly for saying things that are clearly legitimate political opinions but are unwelcome to jewish lobbyists, and which would not appear remotely out of place on Unz.com, here’s a piece published here about the case a few months back:

    Free Speech, Jewish Activism, and the Trial of Jeremy Bedford-Turner

  44. LondonBob says:
    @Ali Choudhury

    The British public are as unenthusiastic of Meghan Markle as the media is enthusiastic.

  45. AK, I think you meant to say: The Absurd State of British Nationalism.

  46. Randal says:
    @LondonBob

    Just another nail in the coffin of the monarchy.

    As a traditionalist I’ve always been inclined to favour the monarchy over republicanism (though the best arguments imo against the latter have always been Tony Bair, Barack Obama and George W. Bush).

    But the monarchy has rarely in my experience missed an opportunity to spit in the faces of traditionalists and conservatives in order to, they think, curry favour with the dominant social radicals and globalists. Maybe it has kept them going as an institution, but increasingly, what’s the point?

    On the other hand, where else have traditionalists got to go?

  47. szopen says:
    @anony-mouse

    Except Polish INdependence marches were big before. The videos of police beating the passer-bys, antifa attacking historical reenactors etc were one of many factors which enabled the defeat of the previous government.

    And nowadays the march of independence is not pro-government. It is organized by right-wing nationalist, and current government merely tolerates them.

    • Replies: @Polish Perspective
  48. ussr andy says:
    @utu

    kicking ass

    “(…)In a world dominated by progressives, the fascist gate to power is closed, locked, welded shut, filled with a thousand tons of concrete, and surrounded by starving cave bears. Today’s Apparat has entire departments who do nothing but guard this door, which no one but a few pathetic dorks will even think of approaching. And this is even assuming that a regime which achieved power through fascist techniques would be superior in any way, shape, or form to the Cathedral, a proposition I consider extraordinarily dubious. Give it up, Nazis. Game over. You lose. Frankly, even the real Nazis were no prize, and few of them would regard their modern successors with anything but contempt. There is a reason for this.(…)”
    –Moldbug

    • Replies: @DFH
  49. songbird says:
    @Randal

    My thought is that in any rational monarchy the royalty would need to be bred, to have certain traits. High IQ. Large amygdalae and all the other brain structures that go with conservatism. Good looks and a good voice. Monogamy. Good health.

    Otherwise a monarchy is just a dice roll and the dice are loaded for globalization.

    • Replies: @Randal
  50. @Randal

    On the other hand, where else have traditionalists got to go?

    Is Jacobitism still a valid cause?

    • Replies: @DFH
    , @Randal
    , @Simon in London
  51. ussr andy says:

    democracy means demonstrating for something that is already official policy, silly!

    [MORE]

  52. This Islam bashing is so counter productive.

    If every Muslim immigrant was willing to convert to Christianity, would their mass immigration be okay? Come to America where our immigrants are Christians from Latin America and you will beg for Muslim immigrants in there place.

    The problem is non white immigration, period. I don’t give a fuck what their religion is.

    When you attack Islam, you are playing the Left’s game.

    • Agree: reiner Tor
    • Replies: @Dmitry
    , @Randal
  53. To clarify, I’m not saying that nobody should criticize Islam; I’m saying that any critiques of Islam should be made totally separate from anti immigration campaigning.

    • Agree: for-the-record
  54. Mitleser says:
    @Randal

    On the other hand, where else have traditionalists got to go?

    Some traditionalist states like the Spanish State or interwar Hungary remained monarchies without kings and queens.

    • Replies: @Randal
  55. Art Deco says:
    @Ali Choudhury

    Her ancestry might be 1/3 negroid, if that. Her mother is a recognizable California type – steeped in New Age therapy culture. The father is a retired technician employed for decades in television production – and, by all appearances, emotionally fragile. They’re long divorced. MM’ss already had a chunk taken out of her by the public animadversions of obnoxious siblings. There’s no dignity in the Markle family.

    Meghan Markle herself is Hollywood – intensely interested in her personal appearance and in what she eats. Black American culture (the agreeable parts and the disagreeable parts) is not manifest in Meghan Markle. She’s divorced and people with her personal history you don’t expect to have aptitude for domestic life – too many taboos breached, too self-centered, too fixated on what pleases right now, too unreflective.

    • Replies: @LondonBob
    , @songbird
  56. DFH says:
    @ussr andy

    Wow, this vapid verbiage from a Jew makes a really convincing argument

    • Agree: Svigor
    • Replies: @ussr andy
  57. DFH says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    It was so politically irrelevant even by 1800 that George IV paid a pension to the last Jacobite pretender Henry IX and had Canova put up a monument to them in the Vatican

    The Stuarts were a rather pointless and incompetent dynasty anyway, Britain was much better off with the Hanoverians

    • Replies: @dfordoom
  58. LondonBob says:
    @Art Deco

    She seems a deeply flawed person, as is Harry in some ways.

    • Replies: @Art Deco
  59. songbird says:
    @Art Deco

    Markle makes Wallis Simpson seem a bit less objectionable.

  60. @songbird

    What would happen if the same size crowds as in Poland appeared in Britain? I think it is pretty obvious that the elite would attack them, probably even before they had a chance to grow to that size.

    The elites did attack them in Poland, and successfully repressed them for a number of years. The nationalist march started under the previous neoliberal regime. How did we change the status quo? We threw them out. There are no guarantees that PiS will not transmogrify in the same direction given time. But if they do, we’ll throw them out again, this time to more radical alternatives, but that will be the task for the next generation.

    75% of young poles prefer right-wing parties. It is 50% (PiS+Kukiz’15) for the general public. It’s notable that 20%(!) of young Polish women support Korwin-Mikke’s libertarian party, and given his quotes on feminism, Poland is probably your best bet if you want a libertarian-leaning, feminist-hating waifu.

    • Replies: @songbird
  61. Don’t swallow the Black Pill!

    Europe suffers under the Baby Boomers (Hilllary & Co.) and their rear guard – Gen X (Obama & Co.).

    European Nationalism will come with full force when the Boomers die off and GenY/Millenials take control of society.

    The Millenials grew up in Essen with Turkish guest-workers’ educationable grand-kids, grew up in Manchester with Pakistani textile-mill-workers’ grooming cousins and had to endure the first wave of Somali refuggees’ children in Malmo.

    They still enjoyed a numerical superiority at school and had to nearly no competition for university-slots & good jobs and have friends among the better part of migrants’ children.

    They will be backed by Gen Z, who had to endure the full-force of Gen X’s insanity and in many part are already fighting for a chance at higher education & job-market.

    Furthermore the Leftists overplayed their You’re-racist-card, while the many Muslim/Migrant communities think they can already challenge the Euro natives, just because they are clustered in the cities and foreign leader like Erdogan are egging them on.

    If the social conflict gets hot, remember that Euros have a safe haven -> Eastern Europe. This is the place where they will be outfitted and can form & train in peace and replenish losses. I ‘ll predict volunteer-units from the Confucian countries, even if their countries stay neutral.

    Furthermore the Spec-Ops/heavy-gear units in many European armies and SWAT-units in police-forces are still 95% European with very national-conservative migrant as comrades. The tip of the spear.

    Patience my friends. Patience. Train & prepare. Party will start in the mid 2020.

    The key is to maintain control of the Southern borders and strenghten the Med, as too prevent reinforcement from MENA.

    BTW for your American readers: In Germany there are over 5000 rifle-clubs with on average 40 members – mostly based in small towns and rural areas. Only ignorant American think us Euros as unarmed.

    Cheers

  62. @Daniel Chieh

    Hitler was a vegan. The ariosophy thing includes the whole hippy package. Too intellectual for the EDL though.

  63. Dmitry says:
    @Greasy William

    This Islam bashing is so counter productive.

    If every Muslim immigrant was willing to convert to Christianity, would their mass immigration be okay? Come to America where our immigrants are Christians from Latin America and you will beg for Muslim immigrants in there place.

    The problem is non white immigration, period. I don’t give a fuck what their religion is.

    When you attack Islam, you are playing the Left’s game.

    Except the problem is mainly religious and ideological. (All this is irrelevant to immigration debate, but simply about saying the truth of the regions where there is a conflict with radical interpretations of Islam).

    The conflict and terrorism problem in regions like the Middle East, Caucasus, South East Asia or Africa, is usually a radical interpretation of Islam, rather than something immutable in the people themselves.

    If you want to be accurate to reality, this is the problem. Muslim nations like Kazakhstan* and Azerbaijan became nice countries, because of the high level of secularization in the Soviet times. Unfortunately, some of these trends may be a little reversed since the 1990s.

    When Muslims are secularized, then they become a modern and developed people. As with the removal of any extreme forms of religion or ideology. The issue is not so much the people (who may be a little more or less suitable for life in civilized countries), but the indoctrination into extremism.

    That doesn’t say a country like America, should be accepting immigration. Probably they should not accept any immigrants at all – why would a successful and powerful country want to change the demographic composition that made her successful and powerful?

    But certainly, the problem in many parts of the world, is the religion (under the certain extreme interpretations), rather than the underlying people, and when Muslim countries can become moderate and secularized, they can be as nice as Kazakhstan and Azerbaijan.

    -

    * You can have a more peaceful Victory Day than in Kiev, in the capital city of a 70% Sunni Muslim country:

    • Agree: Kevin O'Keeffe
    • Replies: @AaronB
  64. TheJester says:
    @German_reader

    Britain seems pretty much gone, hard to see how there could be positive change there.

    Agree that Britain is pretty much gone. Many of the nationalities in the EU face growing problems in sustaining a sense of nationhood in the face of massive immigration — Britain, Sweden, France, Belgium. However, Britain is the only country that is not only falling into the abyss of globalization, they seem to be running over the cliff to extinguish any sense of British nationhood as quickly as possible.

    Please welcome Britain as the first member of the Globalist Commonwealth of Something … the world’s first homogeneous something dedicated to the celebration of LGTBxyz lifestyles available only to vegans and Wiccans. I know, this seems inconsistent with BREXIT. Go figure!

    We just returned from a vacation in Ireland. Fantastic people; excellent food. The take among some of the Irish we talked to is that Britain is leaving the EU to protect its welfare system from Africans, Eastern Europeans, and Caribbean Blacks who are stealing them blind. The Irish are closer to the scene; perhaps they have a better take on what is really going on.

    An update on the Swedes who seems to think the same way. It seems that Sweden now admits that it needs more workers to sustain its world-class welfare state. The truth comes out! All of the platitudes about globalism and human rights aside, the Swedes are primarily concerned about who finances their pensions and takes care of them in their old age.

    Seems that this was the same argument for opening the US borders to millions of Hispanics … to pump and sustain what’s left of the Social Security System.

    I detect a global trend:

    1. Establish a liberal welfare state.
    2. Women no longer need men to support them.
    3. Women enter the workforce and revel in their masculine-esque independence.
    4. Women no longer have the time or interest to bear children (who would take care of them?).
    5. The demographic supporting the welfare state implodes as the population ages and dies.
    6. Eureka! Open the borders to millions (or is it billions?) of immigrants who will hopefully work and pay enough taxes to sustain the welfare state.

    What! The new immigrants don’t work and pay enough taxes to sustain the welfare state? Instead, they also milk the welfare system to get their fair share until nothing is left. Oh, gracious! Sounds like a global Ponzi scheme to me.

    Nationalism aside, I guess we need a completely new model for the organization and functioning of the state in a post-industrial world.

  65. @jim jones

    We did very little conquering. Mostly we bought out the local chiefs and made them aristocrats of he Empire.

    • Replies: @German_reader
  66. Talha says:

    Anne Marie Waters

    The gay lady with no kids?

    “what about all the gay Muslims?”

    LOL!

    drag queen to sing up the stage to prove that New Labour are the real transphobes

    LOOOOL!

    Poz-itively awesome!

    Other Football Lads…

    Time for a new national movement guys – seriously! Muslims can get a bigger crowd out for Eid prayer:

    This movement has to have leaders that embody the kind of people that one can look up to; respectable, articulate, sans-tattoos and heterosexual would be a good starting point. Also, dress in gender-normal clothes.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @German_reader
  67. DFH says:
    @TheJester

    However, Britain is the only country that is not only falling into the abyss of globalization, they seem to be running over the cliff to extinguish any sense of British nationhood as quickly as possible.

    I don’t know where yanks get this idea from. Britain has been if anything very marginally less pozzed than other Northwest European countries according to polling about attitudes to immigration (not that that’s saying very much).

  68. @Philip Owen

    British rule in India started with the battle of Plassey and was expanded in a series of wars against other powers (Tipu Sultan, the Marathas etc.) over 40-50 years. Even if cooptation of local rulers was very important, to some extent it was indeed a military conquest.
    Not that this should matter today or be something to be ashamed of.

    • Replies: @Philip Owen
  69. AaronB says:
    @Dmitry

    Yes, Muslims, give up your religion. Uncle Dmitry is telling you – you will be nice and pleasant countries.

    Join us, Muslims, jooooin uuuuus, don’t you want to be just like us? We have nice pleasant things like coffee, and sneakers…don’t you like sneakers? And you won’t have to wake up in the morning to deal with crying babies…you’ll be freed from the messy necessity of having babies at all..

    Uncle Dmitry is here to give you a helping hand…don’t you want to live nice, pleasant lives? Nice, pleasant lives….nice, pleasant lives…niiiiice pleeeeasant lives….

    Joooin uuuus, Muslims….

    • Replies: @Talha
    , @Dmitry
  70. @Matra

    The Labour party which has perpetual power in Wales goes out of its way to suggest that Welsh nationhood is Civic. So anyone is Welsh. Vaughan Gething the front runner for the FM’s job is a bilingual Welsh speaking black man and one of the cleverest people in the Assembly.

  71. Talha says:
    @Randal

    Is it possible for nationalists retreat to Scotland and form a holding pattern? Maybe rebuild Hadrian’s Wall?

    Peace.

    • Replies: @Randal
    , @Anatoly Karlin
  72. @Talha

    Muslims can get a bigger crowd out for Eid prayer:

    Oh shut the fuck up, your Islamic triumphalism is getting annoying. Muslims in the UK are pampered and protected by the establishment, they are in fact a privileged group, whereas nationalist activists have to face the prospect of having their lives destroyed by the full force of the state. That’s the difference, not any supposed moral superiority on the part of your coreligionists who by and large are nothing but parasites in Britain and ought to be chased out.

    • Agree: RadicalCenter
    • Replies: @AaronB
    , @Talha
  73. Talha says:
    @AaronB

    This article happened around mother’s Day. Written by a Dr. Ghazaleh Moayedi – if not Muslim, definitely one of our exports.

    Let’s see what she has to say:
    “How Motherhood Made Me a Better Abortion Provider”

    Oh OK…

    “There is no Mother’s Day card to celebrate abortion. There are Mother’s Day cards to celebrate giving hugs, wiping noses, and kissing boo-boos—actions that are seen as the core of how a mother expresses love for her children. For my patients who were not parents, and did not want to be at that moment, or who never want to be a parent, I recognize their abortions as an act of intentional motherhood.”

    Uhhhhh…’K…

    “As I finished the five-minute abortion procedure, we laughed about motherhood as her other child watched videos on my phone. We laughed about how demanding and obstinate toddlers can be, about the tribulations of potty training, and about how absolutely strange that “Daddy Finger” song is.”

    Frickin’ kids – frickin’ parasites…

    https://www.glamour.com/story/how-motherhood-made-me-a-better-abortion-provider

    This is kebab…this is kebab on secularism…any questions?

    Peace.

    • Replies: @AaronB
    , @Dmitry
  74. AaronB says:
    @German_reader

    He wasn’t being triumphalist. Just reiterating Karlins original point that British nationalism is rather underwhelming. It’s almost like it’s lacking a certain “something”, but I can’t quite put my finger on it…

    Palestinians on the Gaza border certainly aren’t a protected or privileged class, so I really don’t think that physical safety is the major difference between Muslims and British, although it’s rather typical of you to think it’s the determining factor :) When British nationalists are willing to suffer 60 dead and thousands wounded, maybe we can talk about the motivation provided by coffee and sneakers….

    But you got angry! My, my, a spark of life…

  75. @LondonBob

    The British public are as unenthusiastic of Meghan Markle as the media is enthusiastic.

    Yes. I was surprised to discover that they chose to have their wedding coincide with my long-planned visit to London. Not sure I will have time to participate in the festivities, though.

  76. @szopen

    It is organized by right-wing nationalist, and current government merely tolerates them.

    This is correct, and the question remains for how long. The 100th anniversary of Poland’s (re)independence is coming up later this year and the march will be bigger than even last year’s provided no state interference. Given the current heat with the EU, and the conflict with Israel(as well as their willing puppet, the Trump administration), I expect that there will likely be some form of crackdown this year.

    In some ways that would be bad, in some ways good. PiS was always just a temporary springboard for me, at any rate. Civic nationalism, even one which is better than the vast majority of competing offers in the West, is ultimately ideologically limited to the point of being handicapped or crippled. There’s too much blind PiS support among right-wingers, even those who should know better, because the economy is doing well and they mostly have held the lines vis-a-vis the EU and the “refugee” question. It makes it easier to ignore the long-term flaws of PiS’ ideological underpinning. A crackdown would be problematic in the short term but probably good in the long term, it would wake up a lot of people who are daydreaming now.

  77. AaronB says:
    @Talha

    Perhaps she comes from one of those nice and pleasant Muslim countries overflowing with coffee and sneakers…

  78. Talha says:
    @German_reader

    Hey man – I’m just saying it’s time to swap out the old guard – ain’t nothing different that what Mr. Karlin pointed out. Unlike many of you guys, I’m not black-pilled. I know the Brits will get out of this morass. Their civilization will not collapse. They will come out of this stronger than ever. Their Maker will not let them down inshaAllah.

    What arises out of the old ashes? Will it be Islam? I have no clue because I can’t predict the future – but it won’t be what you’re seeing today – it will be serious and it will be hopeful and it will be affirming. And they will certainly not put up with people who are nothing but parasites and will indeed chase them out.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @Randal
  79. @German_reader

    Plassey is the perfect example. Mir Jaffar, the Nawab’s general was paid before the battle started to change sides. Anyway, it wasn’t conquest. Plassey was fought in support of the Sultan as were most British battles until 1857 at least nominally.

    • Replies: @DFH
  80. Randal says:
    @Talha

    I somehow suspect English folk would get a pretty dusty welcome if we show up in Scotland fleeing from the chaos we’ve allowed our own leaders to inflict upon us through our own sheer negligence, and start talking about “British” nationalism…..

    By the way, I thought of you when I read this story the other day;

    Men-only event at US mosque sparks backlash

    Good luck in trying to resist what happened to Christianity in the US. You’re going to need it…..

    • Replies: @Talha
  81. Randal says:
    @Talha

    it will be serious and it will be hopeful and it will be affirming

    And most likely most of it won’t be British either….

    Except in the purely geographical sense.

    • Replies: @AaronB
    , @Talha
  82. AaronB says:
    @Randal

    You’re like over 90% of the population. If you’re already starting to despair, you’re in trouble.

    You should be brimming with optimism and resolve when you British are 30% of the population, and Muslims are 70%. The Spanish never lost hope when over half their country was under the Moorish yoke. But 5% Muslims, and you’re throwing in the towel.

    Funnily enough, I actually think should the British actually become less than 50% of the population, there will be more optimism and resolve than now.

    • Replies: @Randal
    , @songbird
    , @neutral
  83. Randal says:
    @songbird

    My thought is that in any rational monarchy the royalty would need to be bred, to have certain traits.

    Rationality and monarchy don’t sit easily together, even in the eugenicist form you propose.

    It was rationalised for a long time based upon Christian premises, but those are long gone from the post-Christian societies of the US sphere.

  84. Randal says:
    @AaronB

    You should be brimming with optimism and resolve

    That’s a young man’s game.

    when you British are 30% of the population, and Muslims are 70%. The Spanish never lost hope when over half their country was under the Moorish yoke. But 5% Muslims, and you’re throwing in the towel.

    That’s you projecting your particular concerns onto me. I’m not obsessive about a muslim threat – I tend to agree with greasy’s comment above in that regard. The problem is mass immigration, regardless of religion, and religious difference is just another aggravating factor like racial difference.

    And mass immigration is far from the only problem we face, as I noted above. Undue jewish lobby influence (as manifested in our warped foreign policy and in the subordination of our establishments to jewish lobby attacks on free speech) is another huge problem. And the biggest of all is arguably our more or less complete political, military and cultural subordination since 1945 to the US.

    All these issues contribute to the end of Englishness and later Britishness, as it was reflected for most of the millennium prior to 1997.

    • Replies: @AaronB
  85. Talha says:
    @AaronB

    When British nationalists are willing to suffer 60 dead and thousands wounded

    That’s what I’m talking about. It’s like how I’ve come across plenty of people on this forum and others where they point out the lack of Europeans having families and having kids. So I ask them; well, what are you doing about it – have you found a wife, how many kids are you going to have?

    And the answer is inevitably one excuse after another about how the timing is not right, nobody is compatible, I don’t know if I can afford to live in a good neighborhood, etc. Now some people have legitimate excuses, but many have offered up really crappy ones.

    Man, one of my Arabic teachers went to study in Bangladesh with teachers who lived in houses made of bricks that weren’t even put together with mortar. The ceiling was a foot above your head and the place had like two rooms and these people still had kids. And that teacher of mine almost lost sight in both of his eyes due to a disease he contracted and we raised money for him in the US to make sure he could get better, then he stayed for two more years. He left a well-paying IT job to almost go blind in Bangladesh so he could learn the religion and come back to help share his knowledge.

    People need to make sacrifices what what they think is important. No pain, no gain.

    The Palestinians will keep producing people who’ll take the bullets because:
    “Think not of those who are slain in God’s way as dead. Nay, they are alive, finding their sustenance in the presence of their Lord; They rejoice in what God has bestowed upon them of His Bounty, rejoicing for the sake of those who have not yet joined them, but are left behind – that on them no fear shall come, nor shall they grieve.” (3:169-170)

    You have to believe that your cause is worth it, that it transcends yourself. Who wants to take a bullet for the poz? The Brits that make it out of this will be the ones that have found something to seriously sacrifice for and apparently it hasn’t made itself manifest yet.

    Peace.

  86. Randal says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    Is Jacobitism still a valid cause?

    That’s taking traditionalism too far even for me, especially as I’m not Catholic…..

  87. @AaronB

    People are often happier to sacrifice their lives (especially if those lives are miserable anyway) than sacrifice part of their incomes to pay taxes. Someone who is killed in battle is seen as a hero. Someone who pays a lot of taxes… not so much.

    You don’t understand human nature if you compare nationalist Britons with jobs (unwilling to lose their livelihoods) to unemployed Gazan youths.

    • Replies: @AaronB
  88. @Talha

    Scots are more cucked than the English. Not happening.

    • Replies: @Talha
    , @songbird
    , @fernie
  89. Talha says:
    @Randal

    Good luck in trying to resist what happened to Christianity in the US. You’re going to need it…..

    Thanks we will.

    But I actually do not have a problem with what the sister is upset about; she is not trying to say women should lead prayers or some other nonsense. She is simply saying the women should be recognized. And I agree – I’ve seen to many mosques with facilities that are sub-par for the womenfolk; they are our mothers, sisters and wives – it’s not right to toss them bones.

    But as far as some of the seriously whack stuff some of the SJW Muslims are trying to bring to the mosque…may God have mercy upon us.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @Randal
  90. Randal says:
    @Mitleser

    Some traditionalist states like the Spanish State or interwar Hungary remained monarchies without kings and queens.

    The Franco option certainly looks more and more tempting as the alternative becomes ever clearer. Sadly at the same time it becomes ever less plausible…..

    • Replies: @for-the-record
    , @dfordoom
  91. Talha says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    What??!! Are you kidding me!!! Man, all my Braveheart memories are coming crashing down…

    They told me those were kilts! KILTS!!!

    Peace.

  92. Talha says:
    @Randal

    I’m going to disagree with you here. I’m saying it’s going to be British – native British. It just won’t be recognizable to what we’re seeing at that rally.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @Randal
  93. songbird says:
    @AaronB

    The Moorish conquest of Spain was fundamentally different, since it did not involve modern mechanisms of transportation, supply, and medical technology, as well as communications.

    • Replies: @AaronB
  94. Randal says:
    @Greasy William

    When you attack Islam, you are playing the Left’s game.

    More importantly, you’re playing Israel’s game.

    To clarify, I’m not saying that nobody should criticize Islam; I’m saying that any critiques of Islam should be made totally separate from anti immigration campaigning.

    The common reasoning for those who do so is that it was one of the few ways you could stand against mass immigration without being instantly dismissed as a “racist”.

    The left has tried to conflate the two terms, and introduced another similar smear term “islamophobe” to try to close the loophole they’d left for liberty, but with relatively limited success compared to the pretty much complete triumph they had creating and imposing the “racism” taboo.

    • Replies: @Greasy William
    , @DFH
  95. songbird says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    Makes me wonder about Lowland vs. Highland Scots.

    Battlefield Earth (not the movie!) had hardscrabble highlanders hanging on after much of the rest of humanity had been wiped out in a genocidal alien invasion.

    • Replies: @DFH
  96. Randal says:
    @Talha

    Time will tell, but basic demographics doesn’t seem to be on your side at the moment. Granted, it’s always risky extrapolating present trends, but the bottom line is that we no longer have the basic travel costs and difficulty protection that allowed the creation of nations, and current ideology forbids other protections. So you are essentially gambling on the overthrow of the current ideological elite (which remember is a US sphere elite, and arguably global, not just British) before it’s too late to make any difference. A half century or so? Perhaps a century if the optimists are correct.

    A long shot, I think, but faith can allow such long shot hopes I suppose.

    It just won’t be recognizable to what we’re seeing at that rally.

    Not sure the rally is representative of anything much.

    • Replies: @Talha
  97. AaronB says:
    @Randal

    That’s a young man’s game.

    Indeed. I have come to the same conclusion. But you older ones can at least offer support from the sidelines, and avoid despair.

    I think it’s obvious I’m not particularly concerned about yhe Muslim threat either. I was just using that as an example.

    Agree with all your other points really Jews, US, etc.

    But none of it matters. Whoever your enemies are and however strong, you don’t counsel despair if you have a cause worth fighting for.

    All these issues contribute to the end of Englishness and later Britishness, as it was reflected for most of the millennium prior to 1997.

    It will be different. But perhaps it had to be – everything that went before, ended in now. But there will also be massive continuities, and Britishness will survive.

    The British underwent many mutations before.

    • Agree: Talha
  98. AaronB says:
    @reiner Tor

    And you don’t understand human nature if you think it is motivated primarily by materialistic factors.

    History shows countless examples of rich wealthy people with comfortable lives chucking it all for a cause

    In fact Muslim terrorists are known to come from the middle and upper middle class, and it is a lie that they are motivated by poverty and hardship.

    Snap out of it. Break the spell.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
  99. Randal says:
    @Talha

    But I actually do not have a problem with what the sister is upset about; she is not trying to say women should lead prayers or some other nonsense. She is simply saying the women should be recognized. And I agree – I’ve seen to many mosques with facilities that are sub-par for the womenfolk; they are our mothers, sisters and wives – it’s not right to toss them bones.

    You’re right, of course.

    The problem is in these things that the reasonable acts as a gateway for the unreasonable. Standing against what is a reasonable expectation generates resentment and boosts support for the activists. Giving in to what are after all essentially reasonable demands empowers the activists and demotivates conservatives, and removes barriers to further movement. It’s a classic no win situation.

    That’s the history of the US sphere in the C20th, right there.

    • Replies: @Talha
  100. AaronB says:
    @songbird

    I am sure you can come up with a million reasons for why we must despair now because it’s fundamentally different, and we have no hope.

    It’s always fundamentally different. I’m sure there were Spanish noblemen arguing the mooring conquest was fundamentally different.

    Whatever technology now gives the other side an advantage, provides opportunities for you to come up with creative solutions as well.

  101. songbird says:
    @Polish Perspective

    Those are remarkable trends. I wonder what the dynamic that explains them is. Could it be a lot of first hand accounts of Western Europe? I can’t find any current figures, but my perception is that there is a lot of higher education in Poland – a high rate among youth. Normally, colleges are blamed for leftist indoctrination. Perhaps, the majors are different…

  102. neutral says:
    @AaronB

    I have not seen a single sign that whites in Britain are going to do anything. Their daughters are raped, their children are killed on concerts, their land is overrun by hundreds of thousands foreigners every year and they do nothing about it except pass more hate speech laws. In what scenario do you see them doing anything that is pro white?

    • Replies: @AaronB
  103. AaronB says:
    @Talha

    Agreed.

    I remember a few years ago some people I knew were moaning about the economy – and I was thinking, so people will only afford one car and one TV rather than multiples of each?

    It’s ridiculous.

    Some of the best times of my life and my fondest memories are of living for months in some garret in the Indian mountains, with a cot on the floor and no other furniture.

    Even today when I can afford better I live simply.

    I believe Goethe said we should avoid too much comfort in our personal lives.

    But it’s materialism. Without higher values, what’s left bit comfort?

  104. @Talha

    Yes, non-European immigration isn’t that large compared to existing local populations. The natives simply don’t believe any more that having and raising a family is the most important part of life. The incomers have the same attitude to family that was prevalent here two or three generations back when large families were much more common. A small uptick in native birth rates would erase any fear of demographic replacement. As it stands, there will be may be half as many Italians in 50 years as there are now. Germany will have lost over 20% of its native population by 2060. Moaning about Turks in Essen, Somalians in Italy and Pakistani rapists in Manchester is rather besides the point if your co-ethnics don’t want to procreate.

    • Replies: @Talha
    , @Randal
    , @Svigor
  105. @Randal

    More importantly, you’re playing Israel’s game.

    The Jews have already won. We don’t need anybody to play our game.

    The Left, however, is another story.

    • Replies: @AaronB
  106. Talha says:
    @Randal

    basic demographics doesn’t seem to be on your side at the moment.

    They will change as the people themselves change.

    faith can allow such long shot hopes I suppose.

    Ha! Exactly!

    Peace.

  107. AaronB says:
    @neutral

    I’m not denying the situation is very bad. The rot runs deep. And I suspect there will be a lot more defeats and pain before anything changes. And many British, as Talha says, will be culled.

    But so what? How long did the Spanish suffer humiliation before thry got their act together?

    The French suffered a hundred years of British maurading and humiliation before they got their act together.

    What about colonialism in Asia? Did the Asians just give up?

    Under what scenario will things change? When the British abandon materialism and reconnect to higher values. This is am indispensable condition, and since materialism is maladaptive it will vanish.

    And you’re forgetting also the fragility of our current system and current elites – Jewish achievement at high levels has already collapsed as Ron Unz showed, and they are frantically trying to establish themselves as a caste based on fraudulent science, since their claim to merit as displayed through achievement is vanishing

    The current system, based as it is on materialism and counter to nature, is fundamentally fragile.

  108. Randal says:
    @AaronB

    But you older ones can at least offer support from the sidelines, and avoid despair.

    There’s a time and place for enthusiastic energy and there’s a time and a place for recognising hard realities.

    It will be different. But perhaps it had to be – everything that went before, ended in now. But there will also be massive continuities, and Britishness will survive.

    The British underwent many mutations before.

    I’ve noticed you do have a liking for platitudes. To the contrary there’s no reason whatsoever to suppose that Britishness or Englishness will necessarily survive, whatever it means, unless it is just empty geography. Something that is called Britishness will doubtless exist, but it will have little to do with what was here before 1997, let alone what was here before 1945.

    Such naïve complacency is in some ways worse than despair.

    Cultural change is bad enough, albeit inevitable, but race replacement is quite another level of destruction. I would infinitely prefer a muslim Britain by conversion to a Britain populated by members of another race or ethnicity as a result of mass immigration and differential childbearing.

    • Replies: @AaronB
    , @Talha
    , @Svigor
  109. DFH says:
    @Philip Owen

    Clive and Wellington fought plenty of other straight battles in which they defeated Oudh, the Mughals, Tipu Sultan, the Marathas etc. without paying anyone off.

    Anyway, it wasn’t conquest. Plassey was fought in support of the Sultan as were most British battles until 1857 at least nominally.

    Who was replaced and reinstalled several times (with the East India Company taking some districts) until Bengal was actually conquered, which Clive fought more battles with the Mughal emperor to defend

    • Replies: @Philip Owen
  110. DFH says:
    @songbird

    The only gaelic speaker I’ve ever met was a commie. Apart from Gaelic speaking in the Western Isles, I don’t think there is much of a cultural difference (any more) between the mainland Highlands and the Lowlands.

  111. AaronB says:
    @Greasy William

    And it is when you have “won”, that the slide towards defeat begins. Nietzsche said victory makes stupid. He was right.

    Europeans begin their slide towards decline right after they had reached an unprecedented peak of power and total victory over the whole world.

    Peak Jew will be closely followed by Jewish decline. Ron is already documenting this

    • Replies: @Svigor
  112. DFH says:
    @Randal

    More importantly, you’re playing Israel’s game.

    Who cares? There are more important things than a horrible little country in the Middle East, however cringeworthy the cucking to Jews is by the alt-lite

    • Replies: @Randal
  113. Talha says:
    @Randal

    It’s a classic no win situation.

    That’s why you have to have a referee to call the shots. We Muslims always have to refer to the Shariah in these matters – which is more codified and firm and long standing.

    So we accommodate where we can and draw the line where it is not allowed. It’s funny, my Mom participates in the local mosque where she lives – my dad was one of the founders – and she and other ladies are constantly pushing back against the modernist women who are trying to push a more liberal view. You’ll always have those elements – but you need traditional women to put the smack down on it.

    Peace.

  114. AaronB says:
    @Randal

    I don’t think you are understanding my position if you think I am counseling naive complacency!

    What you do not understand is that “hard realities” are often just the world viewed through the eyes of a depressed person.

    And platitudes are healthy – the cynicism and “subtlety” of an overripe civilization that has grown weary is not healthy.

    Your ancestors thought in naive platitudes when they conquered the British Empire.

    What you need is freshness, simplicity, naivete. Go read a Sir Walter Scott novel – I’m reading one now.

    But if you prefer despair, that is your choice.

    • Replies: @Randal
  115. Randal says:
    @DFH

    If only it were just the shitty little country itself that was the concern here. What we are dealing with is a lobby that can get people locked up in this country merely for saying things they don’t like, as documented above, and that can more or less openly subvert our politicians and face merely a slap on the wrist and prompt media suppression of the story when exposed.

  116. ussr andy says:
    @DFH

    Wow, this vapid verbiage from a Jew makes a really convincing argument

    it sorta does in context. Highly recommended.
    Or am I the Jew?

  117. Talha says:
    @Randal

    I would infinitely prefer a muslim Britain by conversion to a Britain populated by members of another race or ethnicity as a result of mass immigration and differential childbearing.

    This is what I was talking about. The native Brits who survive this will not be post-Christian; that is a dead end.

    Brits were pagans, then Christian-Catholic, then Anglican, then post-Christian – there will be another mutation for survival. Will it be Islam? Possibly. Will it be a revived Christianity? That is also quite possible – many Muslim countries were quite irreligious from the 50s through the 80s until the push back started happening. It can readily happen in the UK. Or will it be a completely new religion (or a non-native version of Christianity like Orthodox)? Also possible.

    http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/news/2016/12/14/liberal-churches-in-decline-while-orthodox-ones-grow-says-study-of-protestants-in-canada/

    I do not see them being ethnically replaced though for a couple of reasons; 1) the fight is still young, red-pilling has been quite recent and 2) the immigrants themselves are getting pozzed progressively so they will also be shedding dead weight. Possibly and equilibrium is at hand.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @AaronB
    , @Randal
  118. Talha says:
    @Ali Choudhury

    A small uptick in native birth rates would erase any fear of demographic replacement.

    Exactly – it doesn’t need to be a majority movement – just enough native people returning to core traditional family principles.

    if your co-ethnics don’t want to procreate.

    Indeed – it’s the basic building blocks of human society. Goat herders in Eritrea can figure it out. It’s not complicated.

    Peace.

  119. AaronB says:
    @Talha

    I see a real possibility it will be orthodox – bit then Celtic Christianity was basically orthodox.

    But I see a real interest in orthodoxy in the Anglo countries.

    It may very well turn out Muslim as well – if so, Sufi Muslim I hope!

    In the 60s it looked like eastern religions might be the ones, but not anymore. Too foreign it seems – but I love them.

    • Replies: @Talha
  120. Dmitry says:
    @Talha

    Secularized Muslim countries (Kazakhstan, Azerbaijan) became culturally attractive, normal and adequate countries, more sympathetic and more inhabitable, than religious or radicalized parts of the Islamic world.

    Probably only with the help of Russia – the Azerbaijan people, even if they do not recognize the advantage to themselves, could escape the religious clouds, and today live as normal people.

  121. Randal says:
    @AaronB

    What you do not understand is that “hard realities” are often just the world viewed through the eyes of a depressed person.

    You seem to regard stating the obvious as some kind of achievement. Obviously sometimes “hard realities” are “just the world viewed through the eyes of a depressed person”. More often, of course, “hard realities” are actually just that – hard realities.

    That there might be nothing meaningfully British or English left within a few generations is a hard reality that needs to be confronted in order to recognise the seriousness of the situation we are in. The idea that “it’ll be alright” because Britishness will continue come what may is precisely naive complacency (or cynical dishonesty, perhaps, depending on the motive for expressing it). It’s true of course that Britishness might survive anyway, and arguments can be made for that – but that’s very different from expressing it as an empty, faith-based platitudinous inevitability.

    Much of what I’ve seen you write here is criticism of “racists” or “white nationalists” for trying to address some of those hard realities, when in your opinion they should instead be taking the moral high ground by basically sticking their heads in the sand and trusting that all will be for the best if they just adopt your ideals of moral sanctimony instead of confronting the aforementioned hard realities.

    What you need is freshness, simplicity, naivete.

    Again, keep your childish recommendations for the children for whom they might be appropriate.

    Though such children would be well advised to pay attention to the hard realities as well as being appropriately enthusiastic. It’s usually best to learn from more experienced others rather than pay the price of naivety yourself too often.

    Your ancestors thought in naive platitudes when they conquered the British Empire.

    Yes, just as all people use platitudes when they have nothing really to say but want to appear superior.

    But doubtless the ones who had nothing more than platitudes tended to be especially the ones who ended up dying pointlessly or wasting their lives in effort without achievement. Meanwhile most of the actual work was done by those who had a bit more about them.

    • Replies: @AaronB
    , @Greasy William
  122. @Dmitry

    You’re wasting your time, Talha thinks the roll-back of secularism in large parts of the Islamic world (e.g. Turkey) over the last few decades is a wonderful development. His world view is completely at odds with yours (which I share on this issue), there is no bridging this gap and never can be.

    • Agree: Talha, AaronB
    • Replies: @Dmitry
    , @utu
  123. Randal says:
    @Ali Choudhury

    Moaning about Turks in Essen, Somalians in Italy and Pakistani rapists in Manchester is rather besides the point if your co-ethnics don’t want to procreate.

    Well no, absent mass immigration a few decades of declining population is not a big deal, especially in a heavily populated island like the UK (or Japan, even more so). And absent mass immigration the elites that profit from it and are the main driver behind promoting it and suppressing resistance to it would be forced to take serious measures instead to promote indigenous reproduction, ultimately resolving the problem with hopefully a reasonably stable population.

  124. Dmitry says:
    @AaronB

    Because life is, or can be, very good – as long as you are lucky not to suffer various misfortunes, physical or economic (both natural and manmade).

    Religion – particularly radical or politicized forms – is often used, like political whining, as a way to demean the opportunities and good things of present life.

    Sometimes people just need to open walk outside in the sun. It’s healthier than falling victim of superstitious fantasies which were designed by people who often were highly inadequate, and probably would have trouble with basic arithmetic.

    That’s not to denounce all religion, or deny some myths and practices of religion can be helpful for people psychologically, usually when they do have various misfortunes in their life. Or that in some religions (for example, in Hinduism), there is not contained some interesting philosophical content.

    • Replies: @AaronB
  125. Randal says:
    @Talha

    These are all possibilities, though by no means necessarily the most likely imo. What I object to is the assumption that they will necessarily come about.

    Still more, the implication that “white nationalists” should shut up about the hard realities they face because it’ll all work out alright in the end regardless.

    1) the fight is still young, red-pilling has been quite recent and 2) the immigrants themselves are getting pozzed progressively so they will also be shedding dead weight

    From what I see around me the younger generations seem more thoroughly pc indoctrinated than any previous generations on most issues, certainly on “racism”.

    And it does little for subsequent generations of the incomers to progressively approach norms of lower childbirth, if there are constant flows from Africa and Asia to reinforce them.

    • Replies: @Talha
  126. Talha says:
    @Dmitry

    Look – this is all opinion being posited as fact.

    became culturally attractive, normal and adequate countries, more sympathetic and more inhabitable

    To people like you; this is a subjective evaluation. Which is fine – but don’t posit it as fact. Some people want to live in a place where they can easily have access to liquor or pick up chicks or…others do not.

    You write the word “normal”; yet Azerbaijan is starting to suffer from the same imploding population issue as Europe. It’s not as bad, but that’s because they are late to the party – how is this normal by an organic metric?

    religious or radicalized parts of the Islamic world.

    I like the religious parts just fine, don’t like the radicalized ones.

    could escape the religious clouds, and today live as normal people.

    Again, only someone completely enamored by (post)modernity will make these statements. Human beings are religious by nature, we have been for thousands of years. What we see today is not normal. How is a quadruple rise in suicide in the last few years normal?

    https://iwpr.net/global-voices/azerbaijan-alarming-rise-suicide

    Peace.

    • Replies: @Anon
  127. AaronB says:
    @Randal

    I don’t think you are understanding me – and I suspect it’s wilfull misunderstanding.

    Face up to the hard realities – fully admit them with the most brutal honesty you can summon. After that, abandon materialism, have faith in God – and do your best to create a better situation. Have faith that since the current system goes against – cosmic law or the divine will, nature or the Tao, or what have you – that it is fundamentally at odds with the unwritten laws of the universe, it is fragile and cannot survive. And you can help topple it. This is hardly complacency.

    But it isn’t materialism. And if you cannot abandon that, you cannot understand me.

    With regard to racism, nowhere have I counseled putting our heads in the sand. Again, be brutally honest. But be moral – honestly point out black dysfunction, but emphasize the role of values in changing the situation. I’m fact, this is more honest. And avoid sneering contempt of the Sailor kind.

    But again, this requires a abandoning materialism.

    I am afraid this is all I can give you. I am sorry if you find them childish platitudes. You are an old man – perhaps you cannot make the leap.

    That is as it is, but the new generation cannot think like you, and if in my tiny small way, I can help it not to, in my tiny corner of the world, I will.

    • Replies: @Randal
  128. AaronB says:
    @Dmitry

    Religion – particularly radical or politicized forms – is often used, like political whining, as a way to demean the opportunities and good things of present life.

    Like, apparently, sneakers and coffee. Gotcha :)

    I agree life can be very good. But not how you live it. And life can be very good almost under any economic situation, and very bad amidst opulence – as we see.

    But you cannot see it. So go your way in peace – may your sneakers carry you safely to the coffee house of your dreams, and may you enjoy a warm and tasty mug of your favorite bean – and rejoice that you have reached the summit of felicity.

  129. Talha says:
    @Randal

    “white nationalists” should shut up about the hard realities they face

    No, they shouldn’t shut up – they should overcome and find others that are taking healthy steps to overcome and encouraging each other. There is a difference.

    more thoroughly pc indoctrinated than any previous generations on most issues

    Yes, I get that – I didn’t say there isn’t a lot of deadwood to clear. And they are young – they can change views as they mature – didn’t you?

    if there are constant flows from Africa and Asia to reinforce them.

    Excellent point. I think there simply needs to be a party or movement that forms just on this one issue; stopping immigration – that’s it. Nothing else. If it is an existential threat, then it needs to be priority number one. If moving on it is being blocked by something else, then that becomes existential threat number one until you get to your objective.

    Peace.

  130. songbird says:
    @Dmitry

    I’ve been wondering about the old “Stans” recently. Kazakh women seem much better looking than MENA women to me. And if the video is of Azerbaijan, I would say the same about Azerbaijanis

    The big question mark is what are the local average IQs? That is the question that I can’t answer with confidence. I’m not 100% sure whether to trust the estimates or not, but at the same time, I think it would probably be an error to assume one can extrapolate from China, based on latitude. The local conditions and history are probably different.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  131. Talha says:
    @AaronB

    if so, Sufi Muslim I hope!

    Prof. David Cook of Rice university (who studies radical movements in the Muslim world) has stated that 90% of converts are going to the Sufis. Salafi-Wahhabi ethos is a desert ethos, not only the desert, but of the Najd area – it is not a blessed area, no movement that has come out of that area has been blessed.

    http://islamqa.org/hanafi/askimam/17534

    Peace.

    • Replies: @AaronB
  132. AaronB says:
    @Talha

    That is hopeful.

    I believe the beautiful mountains of Kashmir were a focal point for sufis, and it blended in very interesting ways with Hinduism to create an interesting local culture.

    The harshness of the desert may produce an initially quite pure and intense spirituality, but too arid. It needs balance.

    • Replies: @Talha
  133. @Randal

    Do you not know how cantankerous you come off as or do you just not care?

    Britain will be fine. Put your faith in the Lord.

    • LOL: for-the-record
    • Replies: @Randal
  134. Dmitry says:
    @German_reader

    Sure. But I believe Talha seems like a reasonable fellow, that knows that Azeris and Kazakhs are living better than the non-secular Muslims.

    That doesn’t have to be something which challenges his personal religion as probably he understands that not all people want the same thing as him.

    But it is something he needs to explain – if he believes secularization is bad for Muslim societies.

    The intuitive view of Azerbaijan and Kazakhstan, is that this kind of secularized society offers a hope or role model for the Muslim world.

    • Replies: @for-the-record
  135. Talha says:
    @AaronB

    The harshness of the desert may produce an initially quite pure and intense spirituality, but too arid. It needs balance.

    Not all of the desert is the same. The Najd is something else – for whatever reason, it lacks blessings. I have known people who have traveled to other desert areas (like the Sahel and parts of Yemen) and met very, very spiritual people there.

    If I recall, some of the early Christian mystics also retreated to the desert, no?

    But yes, the desert may give rise to things that grow there, like the cactus (with its own unique beauty), but the cactus will not grow in the soil of Britain.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @AaronB
  136. @Randal

    The Franco option certainly looks more and more tempting

    The Salazar option would be much better, I believe.

    • Replies: @Randal
  137. AaronB says:
    @Talha

    Very interesting. The Najd. An evil and ill fated place. Places have their “geniuus locii” as well – they have spirit. You conjure up images of a howling waste populated by djinn :) Fascinating!

    Yes, the “desert fathers” retreated to the desert – it was quite an extensive movement. Personally I am a fan of deserts, I find them quite compelling – but many people don’t. I also love mountains.

    And for sure if Britain goes Muslim, it will be very different from that of Arabia!

    • Replies: @Talha
  138. @AaronB

    The British underwent many mutations before.

    Absolutely nothing compared to the great social experiment on which they are now embarked, beyond the point of no return it would appear.

    I strongly recommend that you peruse (in the original sense) the following article:

    Unmaking England

    Will immigration demolish in decades a nation built over centuries?

    Over the last 18 years, Great Britain—more precisely, England, a distinction we’ll get to soon—has been in the grip of the most profound social transformation since the Industrial Revolution. Neither the upheavals attendant on the world wars nor the dislocations triggered by economic depressions nor the changes wrought by the attenuated breakdown of a social order rooted in a feudal past have so fundamentally altered England’s civilization as will the impact of mass immigration. . .

    But the mass immigration that Britain has experienced since 1997—the year Tony Blair’s New Labour government radically revised the immigration laws in a deliberate effort to transform Britain into a multicultural society—has had an effect wholly different from that of all previous political and social disruptions. Mass immigration hasn’t merely embellished, changed, or even assaulted the enduring, resilient national culture that Orwell adumbrated. Rather, by its very nature—by its inherent logic, and by the ideology, aspirations, and world-historical forces from which it springs and to which it gives expression—it perforce obliterates that culture. . .

    http://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/unmaking-england/

  139. Dmitry says:
    @songbird

    I can’t answer your question.

    But I’ll note Azerbaijan is statistically the most secularized Muslim country in the world. The question is – is it a coincidence that the high secularization from is correlated with the fact it has a more relaxed and adequate atmosphere?

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  140. Dmitry says:
    @Dmitry

    How the YouTube attention whores in Azerbaijan. Attention whore activity beside, will anyone tell me secularization is a ‘curse’ Muslim societies and it would better if every woman was there in hijab?

  141. @Dmitry

    The intuitive view of Azerbaijan and Kazakhstan, is that this kind of secularized society offers a hope or role model for the Muslim world.

    For you, but not for him (or AaronB for that matter).

    • Replies: @Talha
  142. Talha says:
    @AaronB

    If native Brits go Muslim, I will demand from them – as their brotherly duty to make up for the mistakes of their ancestors and remove the Najdis from power and quarantine them in the Najd.

    Having done that, they can then take over the Hijaz (Makkah and Madinah) as well as the oil fields and manage it all as a trust for the Ummah.

    Peace.

  143. Randal says:
    @Greasy William

    Do you not know how cantankerous you come off as or do you just not care?

    The latter. Though certain categories do bring out the worst in me.

    Neocon warmongers

    “Antisemites” who insist on proving to everyone how morally superior they are to “racists” and vice versa.

    People who spout empty platitudes as though they are giving great wisdom, and fail to back them up with any substance.

    But obviously you knew about that last one, which is why you wrote:

    Britain will be fine. Put your faith in the Lord.

    • Replies: @Greasy William
  144. Randal says:
    @for-the-record

    Hmm. Nice to avoid the desperate civil war, but what’s the benefit other than that?

    • Replies: @for-the-record
  145. @Randal

    People who spout empty platitudes as though they are giving great wisdom, and fail to back them up with any substance.

    Fine then. Let’s talk about substance.

    Britain, Canada, Australia and New Zealand are basically fictitious entities, responding slavishly to the imperial diktats of the United States.

    For a long time, I had believed a civil war in the US was inevitable and it may yet come about, but increasingly I feel like Trump will save America. When America destroys its immigrant population, the rest of the Anglo world will have no choice but to do the same to its own immigrants.

    But if Trump fails then I can promise you that there will be civil war in the US and that such a war will spread to the rest of the Western world. But whereas the US civil war will just lead to breakup the civil war in other western countries will lead to the large scale expulsion and genocide of the Left and immigrants.

  146. @Greasy William

    Trump will save America. When America destroys its immigrant population

    Trump is going to “destroy” America’s immigrant population?
    You’re really a master troll (I mean that as a compliment).

    • Agree: Talha
    • Replies: @UrbaneFrancoOntarian
  147. @Randal

    American cultural pollution? LOL

    Americans put out lots of culture, yes. You Brits are under no obligation to consume any of it. But you do, whether it’s the Ford Fiesta, Curb Your Enthusiasm, McDonald’s or Facebook. This is your choice. Stop pretending like we’re forcing any of it on you, or even care at all whether you notice it.

    And since I mentioned Facebook, let the record show that it was a rather benign social media platform used by people to keep in touch with their relatives and exes. Then the Brits got hold of it and turned it into an abusive platform used by pedos sweating in their Barney costumes. Leading, of course, to the “panic button” (Britain’s sole “contribution” to the Internet in the last 20 years).

    Same goes for Twitter, btw. And now they’re banning people left and right (though mostly right) thanks to the great example set by your hate speech hounds.

    And when it comes to cultural pollution, no one outdoes the British. Your music sucks, your films are atrocious (“Dunkirk” lol) and did I mention hate speech laws? Why yes I did. Coming soon to a city near you, thanks to the Brits.

    • Replies: @Matra
    , @inselaffen
  148. You’re really a master troll

    There is a difference between trolling and poetic license.

    if you have ever read my posts at lionoftheblogosphere.wordpress.com, you would be familiar with my phrase “destruction of the immigrant community”. One guy once said, and I’m paraphrasing here, “I’m in favor of securing the border and deporting illegals, but I keep seeing the phrase ‘destruction of the immigrant community’ here and I’m not sure that I can sign on for that.”

    But he can. You see, “destruction” does not necessarily mean outright genocide.

    The immigrants we have in America are nothing like the immigrants you have in Europe. The European immigrants are just people who are looking for a better life. The immigrants to America in contrast are fundamentally evil people who hate Americans and want to displace them for the purposes of turning the US into another mestizo shit hole, as if the world is currently lacking in such countries.

    So while complete physical extermination of every piece of immigrant filth on our soil would be the most just and practical solution to the immigrant problem, that is not the path Trump or the people around him are planning to pursue. And yet Trump still has started on the path of “destroying the immigrant community”. How can that be?

    The American Immigrant “Harvest” Plan:

    1. Secure the border. Anyone attempting to cross goes to jail and has their kids taken away. Work with Mexico (::barf::) to ensure that the immigrants journey to the US is as dangerous as possible so that many of these vermin die on the way and thereby scare others in their shithole homelands into not making the trip. This is a work in progress but we have already started. Taking the kids away has caused great anguish to many immigrant parents, so much so that many have asked for the US to just give them their kids back and to let them go home.

    2. Deport more from the interior. Obama completely eliminated all deportations for non felons whereas Trump is outright trying to deport as many non felons as possible. It will take a few years to even get interior deportations up to Bush Jr. levels, but those levels were actually quite high and we are looking to at least double them down the road.

    3. Make life unlivable for immigrants by passing national E-verify, cutting off their welfare and making it impossible for them to get apartments. I will admit we haven’t moved forward on this yet, due to internal political problems within the Republican party, but we should be able to at least start this process as long as we hold the House and pick up a few Senate seats in the midterms.

    4. The final blow will come after Trump’s re-election: the elimination of legal immigration for non whites. You heard it here first: The Dems are going to nominate Kamala Harris and she will run on an explicit white genocide platform. Trump will win by 8 points and have over 60 seats in the Senate and will have a mandate to shut down legal immigration.

    5. With the pipeline of new shitskins shut down, the Latrinos will be assimilated into white America over the next 50 years. America will return to being 80+% white. Then the US will force it’s US vassals to get rid of their own immigrants.

    As you can see, the end result is no different than just killing all the immigrants. It just happens a little slower.

    • Replies: @German_reader
  149. @ 2cents to Talha:

    - The Saudis will either modernize or they will collapse. Anyway they will be less able to finance their intepretation of Islam. The hate-spewing mosques allover the world will close down.

    - Many Muslim countries are actually quite vulnerable (Morocco’s growth depending on good harvests.) or already can’t feed themselves (Egypt, Syria, Yemen, Iraq, Algeria). Same as the Saudis: deep reform or collapse/civil war.

    - If collapse/war happens that means another million men march towards Europe and that means electoral wins for the far-right. That will shut the door permantly.

    -If deep reforms happens that will automatically leads to a slow secularization process.

    - Malaysia & Indonesia are just 10 / 15 years away from being newly industrialized countries and will have the resources for soft-power. Just like SKorea currently with its’ KPop-wave. That means Muslim will see that being moderate will bring more perks than being Quran-thumping beggars.

    - PAX CONFUCIUS. The Chinese/Japanese/Koreans/Vietnamese will have less patience and have less qualms from bitchslapping any terror-supporting governments and/or letting people starve to death, who do not toe the new Asian-consensus-line.

    Arabs will not able to piggyback on their wealth like they could with the Euros. When the remittance-flow from EU dries up, it will be endgame.

    It is not the Euros, who will be squeezed but Arabs and SS-Africans. Either build modern substainable societies or die.

    Cheers

    PS the latest birth-statistics for Egypt indicates a whopping 60% drop in live-births. In 2015: 6.6 million babies -> in 2017 just 2,55 million babies.

  150. Mikhail says: • Website

    Interesting bits on closely related languages, which contradict the person who suggestively passes himself off as some kind of legit myth buster:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutual_intelligibility

    Among other things, note what’s said about Russian, Ukrainian and Belarusian relative to Polish.

    https://www.google.com/search?source=hp&ei=rZT7WomTHYKzggf8vZyIDA&q=polish+language+most+closely+related+to&oq=polish+language+most+closely+related+to&gs_l=psy-ab.12…814.16220.0.17037.41.41.0.0.0.0.114.2779.39j2.41.0..2..0…1.1.64.psy-ab..0.34.2297…0j0i131k1j0i22i30k1j33i22i29i30k1j33i21k1j33i160k1.0.RxCoyWIn0b8

    https://www.google.com/search?ei=35X7WpqDD8zAjwSX9proDQ&q=ukrainian+language+most+closely+related+to&oq=ukrainian+language+most+closely+related+to&gs_l=psy-ab.12…12343.14495.0.16681.10.9.0.0.0.0.569.1588.4j3j1j5-1.9.0….0…1.1.64.psy-ab..2.0.0….0.VXNrv6BL-cw

    On par with what well versed others (not anonymous propagandists) have observed.

    Rude people who dishonor the national past of others with disinformation, aren’t in an ethically good position to criticize the manner of those reasonably disagreeing with them.

  151. @Greasy William

    The immigrants we have in America are nothing like the immigrants you have in Europe. The European immigrants are just people who are looking for a better life. The immigrants to America in contrast are fundamentally evil people

    I actually think it’s the reverse, Mexicans are fine people with a colorful culture (e.g. Dia de los muertos) that’s going to enrich the US. By contrast, the recent immigrants in Europe are mostly jihadis, rapists, drug dealers, organized beggars and believers in witchcraft who want to kill the white man and make white women their concubines.
    Anyway, your plan is interesting and mostly quite sensible. I doubt Trump will manage to do something like this though. On current trends he seems more likely to start another great Mideast war which will end in disaster for both the region and the US. His presidency will end in catastrophic failure and the backlash will lead to political dominance of the Democrats who will then push through an amnesty for illegal immigrants and increase legal immigration to unprecedented levels. The US will be a larger version of California, a de facto one party state. Trump might end up accelerating that outcome instead of delaying it, let alone reversing the process.

  152. @Talha

    Man, one of my Arabic teachers went to study in Bangladesh with teachers who lived in houses made of bricks that weren’t even put together with mortar. The ceiling was a foot above your head and the place had like two rooms and these people still had kids…“Think not of those who are slain in God’s way as dead. Nay, they are alive, finding their sustenance in the presence of their Lord..”

    Why yes, if there was a culture to promote people to breed like zooplankton, I’m sure that it will be the most populous in a world of infinite welfare state. Doubly so if it encourages them to die in the name of said ideology to further spread it.

    I am, on the other hand, profoundly skeptical that it’ll get us any closer to colonizing the stars. Or producing anything at all beyond more of itself. While having children is indeed important, so are the many other efforts of enlightened humanity: art, science, architecture, etc. None of that is encouraged by maximizing R strategy fertility.

    I swear this thread has gone dumb some time ago.

    • Replies: @Talha
  153. @AaronB

    While British nationalism is not very impressive to say the least it is also true that British nationalists face repression in a way Muslims in Britain don’t.

    Comparing Brits to Gazans is a false comparison. Since they don’t have a lot in the first place the Gaza Arabs don’t really have much to lose and given their martyrdom culture they even have something to gain from engaging in these protest actions.

    You should compare British nationalists to Muslims actually living in Britain, who certainly are a privileged class. If participants in these Islamic marches in Britain had to face being fired from their jobs and social ostracism, I suspect they would be less impressive. Being a martyr is fun and heroic, being an unemployed loser with no friends is less fun.

    You have this strange affection for obscurantist Islam that I don’t understand. While I understand the need for society to believe in a higher order, traditional Islam is mainly suitable for the type of society it arose in – a tribal, premodern, desert Arab society.

    In so far as Muslim countries can become desirable countries they must loosen the hold of obscurantist beliefs, either by secularising or by accepting significant societal innovations into their theological worldview.

    While I don’t have an opinion as to what Muslims do among each other in their own countries, it is clear that the spreading of these obscurantist beliefs to other parts of the world is detrimental and will only cause these countries to become more backwards.

    There is also the issue that islamisation – particularly traditional and obscurantist strains – tends to alter and partially erase other cultures for the negative.

    In any case if you want to spread your religious viewpoints wider I suggest you learn how to relate to other people more.

  154. @Hyperborean

    You have this strange affection for obscurantist Islam that I don’t understand.

    He’s a useful idiot for Muslims. Unfortunately not an uncommon type among Westerners of spiritual inclinations.
    Good points in your post, I agree completely (also with Daniel Chieh and Another German reader…lauding Muslims and other 3rd worlders for their irresponsible breeding is very misguided, given that quite a few of those societies might eventually face mass death if the West doesn’t step in to prevent it).

    • Replies: @Jayce
  155. fernie says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    What’s a Based person?

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
  156. Talha says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    if there was a culture to promote people to breed like zooplankton

    If you read all of what I wrote, my criticism was directed at people in the West that feel Westerners aren’t having enough kids, but themselves don’t feel like making the sacrifices to make a change in that.

    If one feels population numbers and fertility are at an optimum level, great – no problems there!

    profoundly skeptical that it’ll get us any closer to colonizing the stars

    See, now we are getting somewhere. You are defining a transcendent purpose or goal. This is a great starting point. From here you can form value judgments on individuals and societies (cultures, branches of knowledge, tools, etc.) that help or do not to attain said goal. This is a purpose-driven value system – bravo!

    While having children is indeed important, so are the many other efforts of enlightened humanity: art, science, architecture, etc.

    Totally agree!

    Peace.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    , @AaronB
  157. Talha says:
    @Another German Reader

    Agree with quite a bit. A few points…

    The hate-spewing mosques allover the world will close down.

    They won’t close down, they’ll simply be under local management within the communities they exist in. They might have their name swapped out though, like the one I used to attend in LA long ago, the King Fahd Masjid.

    Many Muslim countries are actually quite vulnerable

    Nothing new here.

    That will shut the door permantly.

    That’s a good thing, right?

    Malaysia & Indonesia are just 10 / 15 years away from being newly industrialized countries

    Yup – keep you eye on Malaysia now that PM Mahathir is back in power. He is a serious guy.

    That means Muslim will see that being moderate will bring more perks than being Quran-thumping beggars.

    If you mean this will lead to less extremist interpretations of Islam, then I’m all for it.

    Either build modern substainable societies or die.

    Sure – survival of the fittest.

    Egypt indicates a whopping 60% drop in live-births

    There you go – the law of averages working its way through – see, I don’t know why people get so worked up some times.

    Peace.

  158. utu says:
    @German_reader

    Talha thinks the roll-back of secularism in large parts of the Islamic world (e.g. Turkey) over the last few decades is a wonderful development.

    People form CIA, MI5 and Mossad who made the roll-back possible may agree with Talha. Talha and his spiritual teachers he often refers to on these pages are beneficiaries of these secret agencies’s actions.

    It is understandable that during the Cold War when USSR was promoting secularization and was aiding secular regimes the US would use radical Islamists to obstruct this process. Muslim Brotherhood was used to destabilize Nasser’s regime and when the attempt failed MB was retired to Saudi Arabia and put on ice until the next operation. CIA was bringing copies of Koran to Muslim republics in USSR to create troubles. It was CIA that destabilized secular Soviet friendly regime of Afghanistan to draw in the USSR and then continue supporting the most radical elements to fight Soviets by bringing Islamists from all over including Osama bin Laden.

    Up to this point the support for radical Islamist is understandable as a part of fight between the two evil empires. To understand the next stage, where the ultimate evil comes, Israel must enter the stage. Mossad helped to create Hamas to weaken PLO which was secular, had international recognition and support of USSR. This might be the first manifestation of the Yinon plan that was revealed in 1982:

    Israeli military and intelligence was still focused on Fatah, and continued to maintain contacts with Gaza Islamic activists. Numerous Islamist leaders, including senior Hamas founder Mahmoud Zahar, met with Yitzhak Rabin as part of “regular consultations” between Israeli officials and Palestinians not linked to the PLO.[19] According to an Israeli official, for a time Israel’s intelligence agency, Mossad, allegedly provided support to Hamas, presumably to weaken or distract the PLO.

    The Yinon plan envisioned destruction of secular states by fragmentation, by fostering sectarian fighting and so on. Basically Israel preferred no functioning sovereign states in the region. It wanted them to be dysfunctional, fragmented, cantonized Islamist statelets at war with each other rather than centralized quasi-secular states that had potential for modern development, universal education, healthcare, quasi democracy and thus acceptable to the public opinion of the West but also with industrialization and ability maintain strong military. Islamization of these states would delegitimize them in the eyes of Western public opinion as perpetual failed pariah states run by lunatics. This was the ultimate evil of this plan because it dehumanized people who lived there and took away from them any hope for joining the civilized modern world.

    Yinon considered Iraq, with its oil wealth, to be Israel’s greatest threat. He believed that the Iran–Iraq War would split up Iraq, whose dissolution should be a strategic Israeli aim, and he envisaged the emergence of three ethnic centres, of Shiites governing from Basra, the Sunni from Baghdad, and the Kurds with a capital in Mosul, each area run along the lines of the administrative divisions of the former Ottoman Empire.

    After the USSR fell apart and the quasi-secluar states were orphaned by the Soviet Union they no-longer posed a threat to the American Empire and possibly they could have been left to be if it was not for the Yinon Plan that was still on the table. The US continued to do the same thing as it did during the Cold War but this time it was to carry out the Yinon Plan for Israel. This explains 2003 Iraq destruction, 2011 Libya destruction and the beginning of destruction of Syria in 2012 which however was halted by Russia finally reasserting itself in 2013 and then in 2015.

    A curious case is Egypt. When Morsi and Islamists took power after the Arab Spring Israel seemed conflicted. Certainly there were no voices calling for his overthrow. He was a perfect actor that Yinon Plan called for. Morsi would weaken Egypt, cut it off from western sympathy and was strongly against Assad in Syria by supporting Islamist opposition there. Yet he was overturned with American blessing by military which in Egypt like in Turkey is a bulwark against Islamization. But one may speculate that this is not what Israel wanted. With Morsi there Sinai would be back in Israel’s hands.

    Where do the Islamist come from? Is it a spontaneous grass root movement or is there astroturfing involved? What about the “spiritual teachers”? Do they all come from Saudi Arabia or Pakistan or rather are groomed somewhere in London under the protective umbrella of MI5? Nobody sane would think that the nest of Islamic hornets as London became was just a result of exceptional liberalism and democracy British are so proud of. When needed “spiritual teachers” and soldiers could be moved to the next hot spot like ISIS in 2014 when the stratagem with the “gas attack” in summer 2013 failed to produce desired results because of Putin and probably Obama.

    What about Iran? It was the only secular state that was in the sphere of American Empire. Iran under Shah had excellent relations with Israel. Iranian Jews thoroughly infiltrated this state. So what happened in 1979? Who was behind the Islamic Revolution? It was reported that Shah himself believed it was MI5. But what about Mossad and the networking of Iranian Jews in high positions? What if Iran was getting too strong to the liking of Israel and this was more important than the fact it was friendly American client state. Islamic Revolution succeeded in turning America against Iran, it delegitimized Iran. is it possible that Iran was the first piece of domino on Yinon Plan board?

    This is the more history of Islamists and Islamophobia. The bottom line is that both Islamists and Islamophobes are being played by the same forces. Actually they were created by the same forces. They were created against me. To screw up my world. So I am hostile and do not have much sympathy for characters like Talha and I am hostile to characters like Randal or German_reader partly because they are so unreflective in their Islamophobia. I understand them but I do not want the Islamists and Islamophobes to be a part of my world. We can get rid of Islamists but only w/o Islamophobia. With Islamophobia we will never secularize them and we will end up fighting somebody else’s wars, the wars Greasy William is praying for and Dimitri is cheerleading offering all kinds of apologia.

  159. 3 Dem incumbents lost primary to Berniecrat insurgents tonight. This is a huge defeat for the DNC and shows that nothing can stop the Corbynization of the Democratic party.

  160. Talha says:
    @for-the-record

    Exactly – it’s simply a difference in values; incongruity of purpose, goals, even aesthetics…

    I live in the Midwest – there are a lot, I mean a lot of fat ladies wearing tight pants around here. I don’t know why, but I’d rather not wish that upon the Muslim world. I’d much rather have our chubby aunties in modest dress.

    Material progress is great – totally support it – unless it distracts one from one’s purpose in life.

    Now if the purpose in life is material progress itself – great – you can never have enough! #Winning

    Peace.

  161. Dmitry says:
    @Talha

    If you read all of what I wrote, my criticism was directed at people in the West that feel Westerners aren’t having enough kids, but themselves don’t feel like making the sacrifices to make a change in that.

    The problem is not as much as not having enough kids. But not having enough kids, relative to lower quality or socially less civilized populations (however subjectively defined) having more kids, while being able to access same territory.

    If all populations in an equally accessed territory had less kids at the same time, that would be be relevant only to the dependency ratio – i.e. only a getting worse, ceteris paribus, problem for dependency ratio at a certain time.

    If people have less kids in one country, but combined with a strong immigration barrier (like Japan), preventing access to the territory from lower quality or less civilized populations, then there is only the dependency ratio problem .

    But there is not the problem of lower quality people, or less civilized culture people, having more kids, while accessing the same territory.

    The nightmare combination for a country feels more like:
    1. Higher quality or more civilized populations have less kids.
    2. Lower quality or uncivilized (however subjectively defined) populations have more kids.
    3. Lower quality or uncivilized populations having access to the same territory as higher quality or more civilized populations.

    Japan is not experiencing a nightmare situation, because it does not have 3. It will have problem with dependency ratio increasing, but this is not so called ‘demographic nightmare scenario’.

    But there are a number of countries, whether we talk about Russia, UK, France, Israel, India, Sweden – where Islamic birthrates are higher than the birthrates of all other groups, while at the same time accessing the same territory as the non-Islamic populations.

    Now in Talha view the Islamic populations may be more civilized or higher quality populations (which might be a fair viewpoint and even true from some religious perspective). But from the point of view of people who view the categories the other way around – it can be seen the reason the differential birthrates are seen as a problem (and it’s only when combined with weak immigration policies).

    • Replies: @Talha
  162. leopard says:
    @CM

    Nothing to be surprised.

  163. @utu

    This is the more history of Islamists and Islamophobia.

    But Islamophobia has been around for ages. Long before Islamism appeared. Even today in Syria you are seeing some of the more hardcore Assadist types starting to regard Islam itself, as opposed to just Islamism, as the enemy.

    re Talha: Talha is religious but not an Islamist. He hates Islamists more than anyone on this board because for him it’s personal. Given Talha’s education level, I’m pretty sure that the Islamic world’s problems aren’t the result there being too many Talhas.

    Basically you are saying that you just want Muslims who pay lip service to Islam but don’t actually believe it.

    re Israel and Islamism: you have every right to have an opinion on Israeli motives, but when you refuse to learn about Israeli politics you will come up with theories that just don’t make any sense.

    Anybody who knows anything about Israeli politics knows that secular Israel was horrified when Morsi won. It was the Israeli far right that supported Morsi but I would say 95%+ of Israeli Jews supported Mubarak and were happy when Morsi was overthrown.

    I don’t know anything about the genesis of Hamas, but I do know that in 2008 the Israeli right was very opposed to the war in Gaza because they were terrified that Hamas would be toppled and the PLO put back in charge there. I remember how I myself was cheering Hamas on at the time because I was certain that the IDF intended to topple Hamas. In contrast, the Israeli left was gung ho about the war precisely because they wanted to install Fatah in Gaza and they repeatedly pushed this idea on Israeli TV.

    And today it is generally understood that the number 1 job of the IDF in Judea and Samaria (what you call The West Bank) is keeping Abu Mazen in power. Similarly, I think that even you would concede that Israel would prefer a totally secular Lebanon to one where the state is essentially under Hezbollah control.

    Your thesis comes down to “Israel is run by people who have the same worldview as Greasy William”. But that simply isn’t so and any Israeli would laugh at such a concept. You can believe whatever you want, but you are only lying to yourself.

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
    , @Talha
  164. @Greasy William

    Basically you are saying that you just want Muslims who pay lip service to Islam but don’t actually believe it.

    Although utu can confirm or disprove my theory, I suspect that utu is a nominal Muslim himself (or has personal ties with nominal Muslims) given his obsession with getting Russia to start a nuclear war with Israel and the long passage he wrote that has sections that seem quite personal:

    Islamization of these states would delegitimize them in the eyes of Western public opinion as perpetual failed pariah states run by lunatics. This was the ultimate evil of this plan because it dehumanized people who lived there and took away from them any hope for joining the civilized modern world.

    The bottom line is that both Islamists and Islamophobes are being played by the same forces. Actually they were created by the same forces. They were created against me. To screw up my world. So I am hostile and do not have much sympathy for characters like Talha and I am hostile to characters like Randal or German_reader partly because they are so unreflective in their Islamophobia. I understand them but I do not want the Islamists and Islamophobes to be a part of my world. We can get rid of Islamists but only w/o Islamophobia. With Islamophobia we will never secularize them and we will end up fighting somebody else’s wars, the wars Greasy William is praying for and Dimitri is cheerleading offering all kinds of apologia.

  165. Mitleser says:
    @Hyperborean

    You should compare British nationalists to Muslims actually living in Britain, who certainly are a privileged class.

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
  166. @Mitleser

    Even more humiliating considering the Church of England’s status as the official church of the monarchy and the state church of England.

  167. Randal says:
    @Greasy William

    No, I said substance, not fantasies that sound like the product of substance abuse. But the comment about platitudes was not directed at you – your drawback is that you waste too much time and effort “trolling”. But that’s just how you get your kicks, which in the end is what we are all here for.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  168. @AaronB

    You still don’t get it. Had the police started a true massacre, killing hundreds of the participants in the rally, this might motivate tens of thousands to engage in violence or terrorism. (Which the Palestinians are doing.) But instead it’s just a few people losing their jobs.

    I have heard of many people enthusiastically sacrificing their lives in battle. Not many people have enthusiastically paid their taxes.

    The situation is so bad because it’s quite comfortable on the individual level.

    • Replies: @AaronB
  169. Randal says:
    @utu

    The bottom line is that both Islamists and Islamophobes are being played by the same forces. Actually they were created by the same forces. They were created against me. To screw up my world. So I am hostile and do not have much sympathy for characters like Talha and I am hostile to characters like Randal or German_reader partly because they are so unreflective in their Islamophobia. I understand them but I do not want the Islamists and Islamophobes to be a part of my world. We can get rid of Islamists but only w/o Islamophobia.

    No, I don’t think so. You are just incorrect in your characterisations here, which imo reflects your own bias, because you are perfectly capable of better understanding.

    I’ve noted before that Unz inevitably attracts people whose views are usually excluded from free discussion in public discourse, and in the societies of the modern US sphere two of the main groups in that category are “antisemites” and “racists” (I use both terms here descriptively, as shorthand, without any negative connotation and with due recognition of their inherently dishonest and intentionally flexible definitions). I sympathise with both groups, and recognise that both groups have important things to say that are ordinarily suppressed with damaging consequences for out societies, though I am not fully on board with the more extreme positions of either

    Your bias is that you sit at the more extreme “anti-Semite” end of that spectrum while broadly accepting the mainstream critique of “racism”, and you often seem unduly concerned to distance yourself from the latter [again, see my caveats above about my use of those terms]. I read much of value in your comments, because you are an intelligent and thoughtful commenter, but I don’t share your ultimate understanding of the world as, in effect, overwhelmingly run by jewish conspiracy even to the extent of their being wholly responsible for such vast human forces as the C20th return to islam in response to the observed failure of secular socialism and nationalism. My own bias is that I’m a social conservative who regards genuine religious belief and discipline as broadly a good thing.

    Talha as far as I can tell is an islamist (depending how you define that term) but not a jihadist. In the sense that he is the equivalent of a Christian who takes Christianity seriously as a guide to life (before modern Christianity degenerated into its modern form of a mostly socially radical bunch of leftist unbelievers play-acting at belief and administering a collection of “moralistic therapeutic deists”). While in the past Israel and the forces behind it certainly encouraged islamists, and they certainly encourage jihadists today, that was mainly directed at undermining the PLO and other rivals of the time, and it is only one small aspect of the game in the ME. There are much wider reasons why muslim countries would be better run by actual muslims (though not jihadists) – the exemplars here, albeit Shiite, are Hezbollah and Iran. They manage to be muslim without being jihadist, and to stand up to Israel without being reduced to submissive collaboration (occasional cooperation when necessary is not the same) like secular Egypt and the Gulf sunni despots, and notwithstanding your dismissive comments about Iran being “delegitimised” they do in fact play a hugely constructive and vital role in the ME. Without them, US dominance of the region would be pretty much complete. The Muslim Brotherhood could certainly have evolved into a sunni equivalent in Egypt, though it was complicated by its involvement in Libya and Syria in which it was de facto in alliance with the jihadists encouraged by Israel, the Gulf despots and the US.

    This is why you are simply incorrect in your idea of me as an “unreflective islamophobe”, since I am not actually opposed to islam per se, just to its presence in force in my own country (as a result of mass immigration), and by extension its increasing presence in other post-Christian countries in Europe and America, and to its jihadist manifestations.

    As for German_Reader, he’s more than capable of speaking for himself, but he’s certainly considerably more hostile to islam than I am. Though even he would probably defy classification as an “unreflective islamophobe” given the kinds of genuine haters of islam that there are out there who qualify much better for than description.

    Again, your problem seems to be with the reluctance to accept your position that the only issue of significance in relation to islam is the involvement of Israel and jewish lobbies in using it to foment trouble. but islam is infinitely bigger than that, regardless of the undoubted truth in your allegations against Israel and the jewish lobbies.

    We can get rid of Islamists but only w/o Islamophobia. With Islamophobia we will never secularize them

    There is no reason to want to “secularize” islam unless your goal is securing US (and therefore Israeli) dominance. Iran operates fine (despite facing continuous economic aggression, active subversion and military threats by the world’s only superpower and its regional proxies) without secularisation, which essentially means the removal of anything of any real meaning from the religion, and leaving it a mere vehicle for political exploitation and in many cases for social radicalism, as organised secularised Christianity became some time ago in the US sphere.

    As for the idea that it is only the existence of “islamophobes” that prevents your desired reconstruction of Islam, this would appear to be a complete fantasy. Indeed if there is an islamophobe here, it looks to be you rather than I.

    • Agree: iffen
    • Replies: @iffen
    , @Duke of Qin
    , @utu
  170. @Randal

    1. Franco-lite, rescued country from disorder, socialism, etc. “Republican” Portugal post-monarchy (1910) was an absolute disaster. Most of the advantages you would see in Franco are to be found in Salazar, at a far lower human cost.

    2. Like his neighbour next door, artfully avoided WWII.

    3. Tremendous amount of infrastructure created — roads, port modernisation, airports, bridges, etc.

    4. Arrived to a bankrupt country, left it with one of the world’s largest gold reserves.

    • Agree: AP
    • Replies: @German_reader
    , @DFH
  171. @fernie

    Essentially don’t be a cuck. If you have to ask, they are not based. You’ll know it when you see it.

    • Replies: @fernie
  172. Art Deco says:
    @LondonBob

    I’m not sure what counts as a ‘deep flaw’ and merely a flaw. His problem in this circumstance is that he’s thinking with his peter.

    • Replies: @DFH
  173. DFH says:
    @Art Deco

    His problem in this circumstance is that he’s thinking with his peter.

    I wish he were. If he had been, then he might have married one of the more attractive and appropriate women he’s been out with in the past.

  174. Silva says:
    @jim jones

    … that wasn’t nationalism, and in at least 2 ways resulted … in the current miserable situation.

  175. LondonBob says:
    @Greasy William

    The demographics of the US means it won’t matter in a few years, might delay the inevitable one party rule for a while though.

    Loving how trashy and dysfunctional the Markles are, her siblings really don’t have much good to say about her, typical Hollywood type.

  176. iffen says:
    @Randal

    All the way down to the last of the 3rd paragraph before “blame America first.”

    • Replies: @Randal
  177. iffen says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    Clearly articulated practical and pragmatic goals might help.

  178. iffen says:
    @Randal

    Except for the dishonest part.

    Why do some people always want to play the dishonest card against those people whose argument they find disagreeable?

    • Replies: @Randal
  179. Matra says:
    @Bragadocious

    It must drive you “Irish” Americans crazy to know that your cousins in Ireland overwhelmingly prefer British music, TV shows, and sports to the alternatives on offer from your side of the Atlantic and for the most part don’t have all these hang-ups about big, bad Anglos. That said, you are correct on this occasion. The cultural pollution produced by Britain these days is every bit as disgusting, degenerate, and naff as anything coming out of the USA.

    Philip Owen – If I’m not mistaken a prominent member of Plaid Cymru once sneered at the Welsh assembly for being ‘too white’, or words to that effect. So-called Celtic nationalist parties are a joke. Apparently, the Breton (also Celtic) nationalists are leftists too.

    • Replies: @Bragadocious
    , @Philip Owen
  180. @utu

    This is the more history of Islamists and Islamophobia.

    Islamophobia is a nonsense term, distrusting and disliking Muslims is completely rational and in Europe at least often based on real-life encounters with actually existing Muslims.
    That being said, I actually agree quite a bit with some of your points. It’s definitely true that US policy since the 1940s has had the perverse effect of empowering and aiding the very worst reactionary and anti-Western forces in the Mideast. Israel has also played its role in this (as far as I know, your example of Israel initially aiding Hamas as a counterweight against the PLO is basically correct).
    I don’t think though the rise of Islamist movements can merely be explained by sinister Western machinations and conspiracies. Such movements have deep roots in the Islamic world, going back at least to the 18th century when it first became clear that Muslims were falling behind the West and coming under the rule of Europeans. It’s a natural reaction for people who are convinced of the absolute truth of their own religion and proud of their past conquests, but are confronted with the material superiority of the West.

    • Replies: @songbird
    , @utu
  181. fernie says:
    @Hyperborean

    So you have to be a jerk instead of just answering the question? Just say what it is instead of wasting my time you douchebag.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  182. @for-the-record

    Like his neighbour next door, artfully avoided WWII.

    Franco wasn’t really artful in avoiding WW2 involvement though, he actually would have liked to join on the Axis side since he had quite delusional ideas about making Spain a great imperial power again. It’s just that he never felt the time was quite right and that Spain clearly wasn’t ready for entering the war given its rather wrecked economy. But for the majority of the war there can’t really be any question that he did support the Axis side (e.g. by allowing German U-boats to refuel in Spain iirc, and of course sending the Blue Division to the eastern front). He only changed course somewhat when it became clear Germany was going to lose the war.
    At least that’s the view of Stanley Payne in his recent Franco biography (which seems credible to me since Payne is generally quite sympathetic to Franco).
    Salazar was basically pro-British in accordance with Portugal’s traditions iirc.

  183. songbird says:
    @German_reader

    None of the people “phobias” make sense, in my view. Even xenophobia is used illogically nowadays, although it might have once made sense to characterize countries that where completely closed off to visitors, like some old Asian societies, such as Tibet, or Japan and Korea, where sailors were burnt alive, once on shore.

    • Replies: @utu
  184. DFH says:
    @for-the-record

    He also wasted large amounts of money, Portuguese lives and in the end his govenrment in a pointless effort to retain Africa (which also involved in importing thousands of Africans and mulattos). Even post WW2 British imperial policy was less stupid. The civic imperialist ideas were also pretty cancerous, although probably also fairly irrelevant.

    Those things make him a much worse leader than Franco, although to be fair Franco would almost certainly have acted similarly were he to have still had an overseas empire.

  185. @DFH

    although to be fair Franco would almost certainly have acted similarly were he to have still had an overseas empire

    But he did have one, there was Spanish Morocco, West Sahara and Spanish Guinea. Franco just gave them up since he realized the time for colonialism was over, even though he had once been quite enthusiastic about Spain’s colonial empire (he started his career in Spain’s Moroccan wars after all).

    • Replies: @DFH
    , @for-the-record
  186. @Bragadocious

    I don’t think you understand the concept of ‘cultural pollution’…
    unsurprisingly, your post is very… american in outlook/attitude.
    some kind of nationalist movement/revival is impossible with this kind of outlook. obsession with individualism and nonsense about individuals making ‘rational choices’ about what they consume… as if trends and fashions are some kind of mass rational choice.

    national survival implies a certain amount of groupthink. and that’s only healthy.

    • Replies: @Bragadocious
  187. Talha says:
    @Greasy William

    Hey Greasy,

    Randal is right – I’d probably be labeled some sort of Islamist (it’s not our native term – so whatever). Islamist seems to range from anyone like the returned PM of Malaysia to Erdogan to Morsi to Daesh. Very difficult for me to keep track since I don’t really care what box others put me in – we have our own self-referential indigenous definitions.

    But you are right in the sense that I can’t stand extremist groups like Daesh and other takfiri groups like them; they have killed thousands upon thousands of Muslims, dragged the name of the religion through the mud, killed innocents in non-Muslim countries which then serves to be a catalyst for more attacks on the Muslim world – I can’t think of a single positive that has come out of them.

    But, yes; I take Islam very seriously – in fact I take the institution of religion very seriously. In a world that thinks religion is a hobby, a relic, or an annoyance at best, this is understandably thought of as quaint, if not insane:
    “Make remembrance of God until the people call you mad (majnoon).” – Musnad of Imam Ahmad (ra)

    Peace.

  188. @German_reader

    Salazar was basically pro-British in accordance with Portugal’s traditions iirc.

    One could perhaps also say that he was better at Franco at seeing from an early stage who would win. This didn’t stop him from significantly augmenting Portugal’s gold reserves through his skillful dealings in the tungsten (Wolfram for you) “war” between the UK and Germany.

  189. Anon[198] • Disclaimer says:
    @German_reader

    At least that’s the view of Stanley Payne in his recent Franco biography (which seems credible to me since Payne is generally quite sympathetic to Franco).

    Payne’s sympathies are Phalangist which is not quite the same thing.

    Salazar was basically pro-British in accordance with Portugal’s traditions iirc.

    As far as I know, that is the case.

    He only changed course somewhat when it became clear Germany was going to lose the war.

    There were always two factions in Spain, a pro-German faction led by Serrano Sunyer and a pro-British faction led by Varela (among others). Franco seems to have seen the war as three separate conflicts: the German-Western war, the German-Soviet war, and the Japanese-Western war, though data as to his personal views is always suspect. Hitler was, to put it mildly, unsatisfied with Franco, and considered various options of getting rid of him, by assassination or invasion.

    The Blue Division served several purposes, some of which were:
    1. Getting the most pro-German militant elements far away from Spain
    2. Paying the “blood debt” to Germany for their previous help
    3. Paying back the Soviets for their previous actions

    Though of course I think Franco would have felt unqualified joy if Moscow had fallen.

    • Replies: @German_reader
  190. @DFH

    He also wasted large amounts of money, Portuguese lives and in the end his govenrment in a pointless effort to retain Africa

    I agree entirely, I had meant to add that he would be remembered far better if he had left office (or died) shortly after WWII.

  191. @Anon

    Payne’s sympathies are Phalangist which is not quite the same thing.

    That’s not my impression at all, to put it mildly. Payne comes across more like some Christian conservative to me, definitely not sympathetic to fascism.

    • Replies: @Anon
  192. Anon[198] • Disclaimer says:
    @Talha

    How is a quadruple rise in suicide in the last few years normal?

    It’s not and I agree with your other points.

    Nevertheless, suicide rates are not always a proxy for unhappiness. Sri Lanka for instance, has one of the highest (if not the highest anymore, I’m not sure) suicide rates in the world, and even in the north people you meet, rich or poor, are not particularly unhappy– there is just a low threshold for the amount of unhappiness that makes one want to die.

    One would think the high rate was due to Tamils or to monks offing themselves for political reasons but I am told neither is the case.

    • Replies: @Talha
  193. Talha says:
    @Dmitry

    I totally get the nightmare scenario of #3. I have no problems with non-Muslim countries shutting down immigration.

    weak immigration policies

    I have no problem with non-Muslim countries deciding to ship Muslims back to countries of origin* either (I don’t really expect much from people that don’t have some kind of transcendental value system they hold themselves to – anything goes) – whatever the majority says. Just do it all legally, that’s not much to ask – right?

    Peace.

    *Note: As I’ve stated before – you will be doing a good number of them a huge favor since they are misbehaving and losing their souls in the West.

    • Replies: @songbird
  194. @Matra

    Irish-Americans? Who are you talking about?

    Someone’s got a chip on his shoulder, it would seem. That someone is you, Paddie.

    And if you’re obsessed with belittling Irish-Americans, why do you refer to them as your cousins? Not very logical is it. Of course the average Irish IQ is around 90 (per Richard Lynn) so I shouldn’t be surprised. You’re the stupidest people in Europe and you wear the mantle well. Now go back to your fairy rings.

  195. Anon[198] • Disclaimer says:
    @German_reader

    Really? I haven’t read his biography of Franco, just his work on the Falange, and that was the impression I got; perhaps his views changed?

    • Replies: @German_reader
  196. DFH says:
    @German_reader

    Thanks for the correction, I forgot about those.

  197. @Anon

    I definitely got the impression that Payne is some kind of Christian conservative, even somewhat anti-nationalist I’d say. The books I’ve read by him (his Franco biography and two smaller books, “Spain: a unique history”, and a book about civil wars in Europe) are all relatively recent though, so maybe his views evolved over time.

  198. Talha says:
    @Anon

    Nevertheless, suicide rates are not always a proxy for unhappiness.

    Yes – not always – but an uptick of quadruple the rate in something like this within a relatively short time is, at least, alarming.

    Suicide rates are a good inverse marker for patience and resilience though. One may not be happy, but one can be content even under difficult circumstances (now happiness under those circumstances is a spiritual level only attained by the elite of the elite):
    “When He gives, He shows you His kindness,
    When He deprives, He shows you His power,
    And in all that, He is making Himself known to you…
    When He alienates you from His creatures,
    Then know that He wants to open to you the door of intimacy with Himself…”
    - Ibn Ata Illah (ra)

    It is interesting, I recently read an interview with a brother from Denmark or Belgium or something. He converted to Islam after a trip to Morocco – which is still a relatively traditional and religious place as compared to Azerbaijan. He was not impressed by any material thing he saw there at all – it is a pretty humble place after all. What hit him was that when he was traveling in places where these relatively poor, traditional people lived, they opened up their homes for him; they gave him a place to stay, food, etc. and asked nothing in return. He contrasted that with what he had grown up with and that nobody acted like that in his native country and converted after getting back home.

    Different people value and put priorities on different things, it’s all quite natural.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @Anon
    , @songbird
  199. Anon[198] • Disclaimer says:
    @Talha

    Suicide rates are a good inverse marker for patience and resilience though.

    That’s probably true in Sri Lanka, but it doesn’t explain countries like Japan, where suicide can be a dignified and respectable action.

    What hit him was that when he was traveling in places where these relatively poor, traditional people lived, they opened up their homes for him; they gave him a place to stay, food, etc. and asked nothing in return.

    This was true of the vast majority of the world until a few decades ago. It’s actually very true of Sri Lankans even now (especially the Sinhalese), except in some places which will not be named. I also don’t think of Moroccans as a particularly patient people, but perhaps I’m wrong. I think part of the difference is that people who think suicide is a mortal sin are, by and large, less likely to commit it.

    • Replies: @Talha
  200. Jayce says:
    @German_reader

    Turns out the real horseshoe theory is actually neoliberal policymakers and faux-traditionalists both constantly selling white people on how awesome Islam is and how much we need it.

  201. @German_reader

    he started his career in Spain’s Moroccan wars after all

    And it seems he left part of himself there as well:

    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/spain/5340068/Spanish-dictator-Franco-only-had-one-testicle.html

    • Replies: @songbird
  202. songbird says:
    @Talha

    He contrasted that with what he had grown up with and that nobody acted like that in his native country and converted after getting back home.

    Such hospitality was quite common in many parts of Europe at one time. That was before globalization and enforced diversity. Perhaps, there were also other factors that weakened it – internal migration, standard of living, secularization – regardless, it can never come back in a diverse society – it is dead. The people who fool themselves by thinking anti-racism can bring it back are the same ones who murdered it. The blood of hospitality and community is dripping from their hands while they virtue signal. But, unlike Lady MacBeth, they feel no guilt at all because they are ignorant of being the cause of it.

    • Replies: @Talha
  203. songbird says:
    @for-the-record

    I don’t believe it. Hitler and Franco – both fascist dictators – both only had one testicle? This seems to follow on the general push to demasculate Hitler by making him homosexual, even in the face of him having a mistress.

  204. Talha says:
    @Anon

    it doesn’t explain countries like Japan, where suicide can be a dignified and respectable action.

    Good point, there are always exceptions to the general rule.

    This was true of the vast majority of the world until a few decades ago.

    I will agree – and the degree to which individualistic, hyper-consumerist values penetrate those traditional societies, these kinds of experiences will become less and less.

    I think part of the difference is that people who think suicide is a mortal sin are, by and large, less likely to commit it.

    That certainly does help from taking the plunge. It is, after all, predicated on belief. If one believes God considers it to be a grave sin, then one necessarily believes in God, then one incorporates that belief in God into how they cope or make coherence out of a given situation:
    “If God loves a people, then He afflicts them with trials. Whoever is patient has the reward of patience, and whoever is impatient has the fault of impatience.” – Musnad of Imam Ahmad

    I remember coming across this survey a while back on the subject…very telling:

    However, it is a few decades old – I would like to see how numbers have changed, if at all since then.

    This spiritual guide, in the Dharmic tradition, says he wouldn’t be surprised if we see a deluge of people checking out within our lifetimes:

    Goes back to that quote I posted from Dostoevsky:
    “Without a firm idea of what he lives for, man will not consent to live and will sooner destroy himself than remain on earth, even if there is bread all around him.”

    People can disagree of course.

    Now the reason I brought up that Moroccan example to contrast the Azerbaijani one is that to point out that the convert guy was obviously moved by what he saw in contrast to the society he lived in and it completely caused him to reevaluate his own beliefs and priorities. Do you think he would have been similarly moved to rethink anything on an existential level by going into a Muslim society which is basically built up of brown people doing a half-baked job of imitating Europeans? It’s amusing, but that’s about it.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @Anon
  205. @inselaffen

    What the hell are you blathering about.

    Asking the Brits to be accountable for their choices and actions is a very American point of view? I’d say your post is very…British for attempting to skirt that accountability. You’re the ones who made a national fetish out of the sitcom “Friends.” We didn’t do that. You did.

  206. Talha says:
    @songbird

    Such hospitality was quite common in many parts of Europe at one time.

    I don’t doubt it in the slightest.

    There was also a level of native public modesty that would shock those of today:

    My how the world has changed…

    Peace.

  207. songbird says:
    @Talha

    Legally, is really a bit of a challenge. What is happening to Europe certainly has no legal basis – it is without the consent of the people and is therefore illegitimate.

    I will go back to the example of Ireland. There was a plan to settle 100 “refugees” in a hotel in the village of Lisdoonvarna, which is a very picturesque cultural center, and only has about 300 permanent residents. There was a local vote. The people voted 93% “no”, but the “refugees” are being settled there anyway.

    The Irish Constitution begins with these words: In the Name of the Most Holy Trinity, from Whom is all authority and to Whom, as our final end, all actions both of men and States must be referred, We, the people of Éire, Humbly acknowledging all our obligations to our Divine Lord, Jesus Christ, Who sustained our fathers through centuries of trial…” In other words, it is an explicitly Christian country, and all actions to alter that are obviously illegal, whether codified into law or not.

    Furthermore, the whole phenomenon of demographic transformation is made possible by theft through taxation. This theft is against God’s Law. It is Haraam.

    I might add since you believe society is so corrupt (a belief many of us share), it seems inconsistent or at least naively optimistic to propound that a grassroots effort can change a trend through existing political channels. What is being done is often in violation of the law. Therefore changing the law won’t help. What about changing the politicians? Many bureaucrats involved are unelected. Others are elected by the outsiders who want to grow their group. Anyway, good luck finding the honest pols, or the ones that can survive the media onslaught. We don’t live in a democracy – Western countries are no more democracies than MENA countries.

    • Replies: @Talha
  208. @Randal

    No, I said substance, not fantasies that sound like the product of substance abuse.

    Thank you!

    I will steal this piece of wit, sir(though I’ll rewrite it somewhat as “substance, not the result of substance abuse.”)

  209. Talha says:
    @songbird

    There was a local vote.

    Yes, but this is a contrast between the local and federal levels – this happens all the time all over the world. Local decisions are overwritten. There are legal ways to reverse this; by drafting laws which grant greater rights at the local level. From what I’ve read, Switzerland is very good about this principle.

    In other words, it is an explicitly Christian country, and all actions to alter that are obviously illegal, whether codified into law or not.

    That’s fine, but there is a legal way to deal with this also. I have pointed out the example of Federal Shariah Court in Pakistan which oversees and can turn any legal decision made by a lower court (including the Supreme Court):

    http://www.federalshariatcourt.gov.pk/Obj.html

    It is not perfect by any means, but I’m certain Ireland can do better. Ireland needs to establish a similar court, given full authority in the constitution, and seated by fully credentialed ecclesiastical authorities as well as authorities in secular jurisprudence that can make review decisions and strike out any law that contrast with Christian canon law.

    The people need to demand this change made to their constitution if they feel this is important.

    Furthermore, the whole phenomenon of demographic transformation is made possible by theft through taxation. This theft is against God’s Law. It is Haraam.

    Excellent point! Muslim scholars of the past were very much opposed to taxes that were not sanctioned by sacred law because they are generally considered theft and must be kept to a minimum to the actual real need of running the government. Some of our ulema went toe to toe against the sultans based on this and ended up being exiled or worse. There were of course exceptions made in certain cases; for instance Imam Izz ud-Din (ra) famous ruling to raise funds for an army to challenge the Mongol expeditionary force that was going to invade Egypt.

    We don’t live in a democracy – Western countries are no more democracies than MENA countries.

    Well, I certainly can’t disagree with you or Hans Herman Hoppe that democracy seems to be a fallen god:

    https://www.amazon.com/Democracy-Economics-Politics-Perspectives-Democratic/dp/0765808684

    Which is why I see no reason to import it wholesale into Muslim lands; we can learn from and adopt the good parts with no problem, but I see no reason to adopt it in toto when the very people who came up with it consider it to be in crisis.

    Peace.

  210. AaronB says:
    @Talha

    See, now we are getting somewhere. You are defining a transcendent purpose or goal.

    Even though I have profound disagreements with Daniel Chieh and Anatoly Karlin, I respect them because they are both obviously religious people.

    Daniel wants to colonize the stars, and Anatoly is interested in transhunanusm.

    These are both obviously transcendent religious projects.

    The hopelessness of most of the commenters here on the other hand is frightening. Randal is actually getting angry at me for trying to inject him with a bit of morale, and is ferociously trying to demoralize me!

    I was musing about this last night – instead of thanking me for trying to raise his morale, he tries to lower my morale.

    When the patient resists the cure you know the disease is very advanced.

    • Replies: @Talha
  211. AaronB says:
    @Hyperborean

    I’m against the Enlightenment and for “obscurantism”.

    I think modernity is a mistake – I want us to go “backwards”.

    As such, I view Islam – in some of its historical versions – as far better suited to healthy human living than the modern world. The modern world is perhaps the worst society that ever existed.

    Now, I’m not saying you have to like Islam – there are many other religions to choose from.

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
  212. AaronB says:
    @reiner Tor

    I don’t think that’s correct.

    It’s not because people are so comfortable – people are unwilling to sacrifice their comfort because they have no higher values.

    So you have it backwards – people cling to their comfort because they have nothing higher, not because comfort is so amazing they can’t give it up.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
  213. Talha says:
    @AaronB

    These are both obviously transcendent religious projects.

    Absolutely; faith that one can reach beyond what is our current state, a hope that this purpose will end in success and not failure, a due respect (reverence one might even say) for the writings and works and efforts of those authorities that are embedded in the project…

    And wait until they project is achieved; there will be statues, there will be museums where the (holy) relics are displayed (full-scale replicas of the laboratory where the first breakthrough was made), the person’s childhood home may become a site people visit (make pilgrimage to), babies will be named…

    Perhaps you made it a little too personal with Randal by asking about his age and what not – I don’t know – I’ve had good exchanges with him.

    In another thread, I made a similar mistake with someone else (that someone else was good enough to point out) so I had to backtrack and ask forgiveness.
    “…Verily the ego incites toward evil unless my Lord shows mercy: He is most Forgiving, most Merciful.” (12:53)

    Peace.

    • Replies: @AaronB
  214. utu says:
    @songbird

    Sure, words in themselves do not make sense but they function and from how they function you get their true sense and purpose.

  215. AaronB says:
    @Talha

    I’m actually surprised at how upset people are getting at the age thing. I think they know their generation really did make a mess of things.

    I have no problem with Randal. Highly intelligent just with the typical superficiality of the materialist. But it’s good for them to get angry, anyways. Awaken them from their lethargy lol.

    Anyways, spending too much time here is actually getting me down, lol. I’m beginning to become like a demoralized European myself – yikes!

    They do not want to recover morale – I thought they just didn’t realize one could approach life with morale, that they had lost some crucial piece of cultural knowledge.

    But it is not a piece of knowledge they are missing. As long as they are materialists, they cannot have morale.

    Meanwhile, last week I visited a Jewish friend and some Rabbi was on TV saying how literally everything is possible, because God decides everything. He was going on and on, with passion, about anything is possible.

    That’s what Jews teach their kids – no doubt Randal would find it all childish platitudes and unrealistic, a bad case of naive complacency, worse, doing harm, really.

    And so it goes.

  216. DFH says:

    Is there a worse duo than the paki/mystic?

    • Replies: @German_reader
    , @Talha
    , @Anon
  217. Talha says:

    That’s what Jews teach their kids

    That’s what we teach our kids. It’s very important.

    Anyways, spending too much time here is actually getting me down

    Yeah – I’m clocking out in a couple of hours.

    You also said something else…

    people cling to their comfort because they have nothing higher, not because comfort is so amazing they can’t give it up

    Exactly – people willingly give up comfort for a higher purpose. These are just two scholars that I know from Illinois that sacrificed a lot of comfort to travel out to the deserts for the sake of sacred knowledge:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8IqaAqyycvQ&feature=youtu.be&t=7s

    Now people may think that’s really stupid. And that’s totally fine – more power to you – but the question is; what do you believe is important enough to almost starve and give up indoor plumbing and wifi over? An existential threat to your people will not rouse you? And frankly, as you mentioned, the sacrifice is not something that is enormous; you are talking about raising stable families with stable marriages with traditional (non-materialist values) and networking will like-minded people on a grass-roots level to come up with social-relevant organizations that can take care of people when the chips are down.

    Peace.

    Note: I do wonder if people would be willing to go to the desert and go days on end without water to learn particle physics if that was the only place to?

  218. @DFH

    In AK’s blog? I can’t think of any. This combination of mystical mumbojumbo and Islamic apologetics is easily the most irritating thing I’ve read here.

    • Replies: @Jayce
  219. Talha says:
    @DFH

    Evil Bert & Ernie?

    Don’t worry – I won’t be bothering you guys in a short while – Ramadan calls…

    Peace.

    • Replies: @for-the-record
  220. @Randal

    A very astute comment on so many levels–and I say that as an American myself. You are right about Washington’s baleful influence over Britain–not to mention the rest of Europe–and so was Enoch Powell. I’m sorry. I wish things were otherwise. Strangely enough, I sometimes feel as though our own country is under some sort of occupation, too.

    • Replies: @Randal
  221. Jayce says:
    @German_reader

    the most irritating thing I’ve read here

    Still think all the shrill crying about how someone’s not a real Russian if they don’t: believe Putin is an all-powerful wizard and/or Stalin dindu nuffin and/or have sufficient enthusiasm for unrelated third-world beefs is a little worse.

    • Replies: @German_reader
  222. @Jayce

    I don’t know, I find it easier to understand the reasoning of Stalin defenders…even if I disagree, it’s still in a way part of a world I can relate to.
    Talha’s thought is just completely foreign to me, as alien as a Martian. And AaronB reminds me of those con man preachers they have in America, with all their motivational talk of self-improvement. I hope he doesn’t start a cult.

    • Replies: @Jayce
    , @iffen
  223. @AaronB

    This is why I preach financial independence to all dissidents as a first principle. And it’s actually not that hard to accomplish as shown by Mr. Money Mustache.

    And really, even normies. Who the hell wants to live a life where you’re terrified of getting fired or can’t afford to replace the alternator on your truck?

    • Agree: Talha, AaronB
    • Replies: @songbird
  224. @Talha

    Ramadan calls…

    24-hour internet abstinence, or only sunrise to sunset?

    • Replies: @Talha
  225. Jayce says:
    @German_reader

    And AaronB
    This is what happens when you let NEETs get their hands on poorly scanned PDFs of Guenon.

    • Agree: reiner Tor
  226. Talha says:
    @for-the-record

    Full – I’m going off the grid so to speak when it comes to forums and social media. I can’t completely turn off the internet since I manage a web development team and would be fired. If I told you my planned schedule – you’d think I’m nuts if you don’t already – starts at 3:00-3:15am ends at 11:30-11:45pm. Sleep is going to be a commodity hard to come by (opportunities for naps will be fully utilized) and my teachers have advised us to turn off any distractions.

    Since it’s a thread about Britain…
    Once more unto the breach, dear friends, once more…

    Peace.

  227. @AaronB

    People have given up comfort to engage in violence. In fact, this is what your Muslim terrorist or Hamas member role models did. (Most of them had been unemployed or socially inept or petty criminals or all three, so it’s not like the majority of them gave up some high quality comfortable lifestyles with families.) Then they can become heroes in the eyes of their communities.

    What “racist” activists face is simply losing their jobs and becoming unemployed and unemployable losers, end of story. Many people are willing to become heroes fighting wars or engaging in other forms of violence. Not many people are willing to become losers.

    Basically becoming Breivik would be a possibility if it wasn’t so pointless: all he achieved, ironically, is a temporary blip in the votes of the anti-immigration party. Actually, the Muslim terrorists are engaging in pointless violence either: it doesn’t help Islam.

    Organizing a community is great advice, except if it gets traction it’ll be shut down by the authorities, because you cannot exclude other races from your community. And if you don’t exclude them, what’s the point? You seriously believe that if the same energy would be expanded on shutting down Muslim organizations, as is expanded on shutting down nationalist organizations, then Muslims would have the slightest chance of organizing themselves?

    • Replies: @Talha
    , @AaronB
  228. songbird says:
    @Thorfinnsson

    Financial independence certainly is important.

    Anyone with alternator problems – depends on the make – but I’d really recommend replacing it yourself. There might only be three bolts, and you probably don’t need a jack, or to risk your neck getting underneath the vehicle. What you need: a cheap multimeter, a new alternator (presuming you don’t want to try to repair the old one), a ratchet set, and most likely also a breaker bar. I guarantee buying all that is cheaper than going to a mechanic. And even if you don’t care about the money, it feels good to be able to fix a physical problem.

    Plus, many mechanics are A-holes, anyway. I once replaced a fuel pump merely because when I talked to the guy on the phone he insulted me by saying I didn’t know how to diagnose the problem properly. Felt pretty good, even though it was a hassle. And it gave me serious cheapskate bragging rights: cost me only $20.

  229. iffen says:
    @German_reader

    it’s still in a way part of a world I can relate to.

    Evidently you have never believed that any sort of supernatural exists.

  230. Talha says:
    @reiner Tor

    You seriously believe that if the same energy would be expanded on shutting down Muslim organizations, as is expanded on shutting down nationalist organizations, then Muslims would have the slightest chance of organizing themselves?

    The stuff the Communists did in Central Asia was far beyond what anyone in the West would legitimately even consider. One of my teachers traveled through there to visit the graves of the many, many elders of the Naqshbandi chain that rest there. The elders from those communities told him horror stories – no clue how many people disappeared. They used to teach Qur’an to groups of children locked away in hidden cavities of buildings and homes that had empty beer bottles strewn around so the authorities wouldn’t be suspicious.

    Spiritual brotherhoods simply went clandestine – to arise decades later and take their prominent place in society again:

    http://fletcher.tufts.edu/~/media/Fletcher/Microsites/praxis/xvi/Gaziev.pdf

    But this requires vision far, far beyond what is directly in front of one – and a conviction that the clouds will inevitably pass. Pessimism is death. You are basically saying; it’s too difficult so there’s no use in the struggle.

    And again – there is no need for violence as it is counterproductive.

    Peace.

  231. @DFH

    It’s like they’re all under arrest already, and somehow don’t realize it.

  232. @DFH

    Tipu Sultan & the Marathas were French agents. Defence not conquest. Oudh, give you. Wellesley was a typical ambitious general who wanted wars.

  233. @Philip Owen

    Hitler was a vegan.

    On the contrary, he was a vegetarian. He didn’t have any silly aversion to dairy, eggs, honey, etc.

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
  234. @Talha

    We’re obviously talking about middle class welfare societies and western Muslims, not some Soviet republics with medieval economies. The surveillance alone is much easier, there will be video recordings or leaked emails to prove your hidden thoughts, something unavailable for the communists.

    You are also talking about existing communities going underground. Not organizing new communities from scratch.

    You are basically saying

    I wrote what I wrote.

    • Replies: @Talha
    , @German_reader
  235. @Kevin O'Keeffe

    His vegetarianism was an exaggeration, as was his teetotalism. He deliberately encouraged this exaggeration to cultivate an ascetic image.

    For instance on the day Prague fell to Germany, the H-man celebrated with ham and pilsner– both specialties from Prague.

  236. AaronB says:
    @reiner Tor

    I understand there are threats to job etc – what I am saying is a truly motivated nationalist movement would figure out ways to organize financially so as to mitigate this threat, and would be willing to take some financial hits.

    You are suggesting people may be willing to die heroically, but not live lives of grinding poverty for a cause. This is not true. Even in the case of Gaza, if they gave up their dreams and made peace with Israel they can have a much higher quality of life. But they prefer poverty, pursuing a dream that’s impossible by any rational standard. History is full of these examples.

    Not to mention, there is no such thing as grinding poverty in the West. Basically, you’re saying everyone is super motivated – as motivated as anyone in history – but just aren’t willing to endure what historically would be considered actual comfort for their cause, because it isn’t what historically would be considered obsene opulence.

    So – this unemployed loser nonsense needs to go. Be prepared to take financial hits and live simply anyways. Look at Thorffinnson Mr Money Mustache site – the guy is voluntarily living the way you say people are terrified of having to if they are cut off financially.

    Look, you’re not the first group to face a difficult situation – all sorts of “impossible” scenarios became reality because determined and motivated people didn’t give up.

    The practical barriers are not the issue here. They can all be overcome.

    You need motivation and an end to individualism and materialism.

    The spiritual issues have to be dealt with first, then you can focus on the practical issues.

    You would be amazed at how having “skin in the game” can sharpen the intellect. You can’t even imagine now the resourceful and creativd solutions you’d come up once you’re seriously motivated.

    I have seen this in my work time and again. A “stupid” person who under performs suddenly becomes quite capable once I figure out a way to get him motivated. We are also learning about the role of effort in enhancing IQ.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
  237. @Philip Owen

    A strange and weird aspect of the Volkisch movement.

    Maybe things were different then, but I view vegans and vegetarians as enemies who must be destroyed.

    • Replies: @Talha
  238. Talha says:
    @reiner Tor

    Well – I guess you’re toast then. ;)

    Peace.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
  239. @Matra

    Not quite. I observed something along the lines that the Welsh Assembly is devoted to virtue signalling of a leftist sort.

    Plaid Cymru is useless. A nationalist party that doesn’t want independence! They try to be more socialist than Labour. That’s why UKIP, at least as Welsh Nationalist (at least some of them) has overtaken them.

  240. @reiner Tor

    Good example for what nationalists in large parts of Europe are facing is what’s currently happening with the identitarians in Austria…although they’re completely non-violent, a leftie prosecutor is now trying to get them for allegedly having founded a criminal organization. The rationale is probably to bankrupt them through trial expenses.
    Their leader Martin Sellner can’t even get a private bank account anymore because every bank closes it down due to pressure by Antifa. His private car has also been torched by Antifa.
    The game is definitely rigged against any form of organized right-wing dissent.

    • Replies: @songbird
    , @reiner Tor
  241. Talha says:
    @Thorfinnsson

    I view vegans and vegetarians as enemies who must be destroyed.

    And on that note – salaam to y’all.

    • Replies: @Seraphim
  242. @Greasy William

    I believe that Trump can only stave off the inevitable. To ‘save’ the country, however, as you mention, is extremely difficult.

    The simple truth is that “demographics are destiny”. Right now, non-Hispanic whites are right around 50% of the newborn births. And they’ve been below 60% since at least the 1990′s. America’s white demographics are artificially inflated by boomers and the silent generation. 50% born in America… citizens… for life. Barring ethnic cleansing, civil war, or secession, these 50% non-white will forever be a part of the USA.

    Now, the bright side. The one thing I agree with leftist on, is access to birth control, family planning, and abortion, if purely for demographic reasons. Progressive states such as Colorado are seeing massive reductions in black births, and Hispanic births are decreasing horrendously in California. New stats today showed that the black birthrate has declined by 9%, while Hispanic and Native are 18 and 27%, respectively. Asian birth rate is always low, just like in the mainland. Calling to ‘so-cons’… white people already have access to abortion and birth control whether you like it or not… their birth rates will not go down materially.

    SO… I have a slight glimmer of hope for the USA… but that immigration really needs to be cut right now. Wall needs to be built immediately. And thirdly, but most importantly, white people need to start having more babies. Their numbers aren’t terrible in the USA, but not nearly good enough. I do see potential in a white renaissance in the USA among the young generation. They get mocked for being “SJW” but in fact nobody mocks “SJWs” more than people under 25. Some young white people (men) are waking up. And I’m not talking about the slobbering ‘alt-right’ losers. At the very least young white men are more open to traditional values such as fatherhood. Baby steps.

    Self deportation is a real thing. Thousands of aliens are now coming to Canada from the USA. At a detriment to myself, of course, but Canada is a non-entity, and I would much rather preserve America for whites than Canada. If the USA did make a white comeback, Canada would potentially follow, although this country is totally off the rails in terms of immigration. It may be too late (it’s not too late for USA or Britain).

    Time will tell, I give it 10%. Chances of a USA recovery are very slim, and are almost entirely contingent on one (buffoonish, flawed, and erratic) man, Donald J. Trump. It’s unclear whether he is even aware of s uch demographic realities, or if he truly believes in ‘civic nationalism’. Eastern Europe is not a ‘saviour’, though. If the USA becomes fully pozzed, they are toast.

    God bless you, Donald Trump, and the American people. You are my last hope. Not by choice, I think you are a tool, but nonetheless I have thrown my weight behind you. What other choice do we have? Dick Spencer? hahaha.

    • Replies: @Yevardian
    , @Svigor
  243. @German_reader

    See my reply to him, it sort of details my thinking on what could possibly happen.

  244. @Another German Reader

    PS the latest birth-statistics for Egypt indicates a whopping 60% drop in live-births. In 2015: 6.6 million babies -> in 2017 just 2,55 million babies.

    Pardon my french, but that is a whopping load of horse shit. 2.6M were born in 2015, compared to 2.5M in 2017. The fertility rate dropped from around 3.5 children per woman, to 3.1, staying well above replacement. Unless you have some crazy obscure source, I think you’re pulling this out of tes fesses.

    PS Here is my source:http://www.capmas.gov.eg/pdf/EgyptInFigure/EgyptinFigures/Tables/English/vital/vital%20statistics/index.html

    • Replies: @Another German Reader
  245. @Greasy William

    The global elite are scared of the Bernie-tards, don’t you forget it. That’s why they are making such a push on social justice issues – they need to satisfy the brain dead leftists.

  246. songbird says:
    @German_reader

    Their leader Martin Sellner can’t even get a private bank account anymore because every bank closes it down due to pressure by Antifa.

    That is an angle I had never considered before: most countries don’t have many banks.

    I knew a German who came to America during the mid ’90s. Something he said about America that I thought was a good observation is that there are a lot of banks and churches. It is definitely less true today, but still quite true when compared to other countries, even Canada, which has very few banks in comparison.

  247. Anon[198] • Disclaimer says:
    @Talha

    Thanks.

    I see you’re offline or something but does anyone know anything about the source of that graph? I find it interesting but I can think of several methods of compiling that data none of which are ideal.

  248. Seraphim says:

    ‘Islamism’ is the very core of… Islam. I cannot but wonder why people constantly fail to see what is in plain view. It would be enough to shuffle through their sacred book to see that. Islam has its own dynamic which is to Islamize the world (i.e. to erase Christianity and ‘secularism’ and make everyone raise their bottoms five times a day), even if at times the Jews, or the British, or the French, or the Americans, believe that they can manipulate this dynamic for their own purposes (usually against their own Christian fellows, Russians for example), without realizing that they do that at their own peril (what we see in Europe).

    • Agree: utu, RadicalCenter
    • Replies: @Ali Choudhury
  249. @AaronB

    So choose some other, better religion and stop shilling for islam. I think Western-style quasi-Buddhism would fit you.

    Islam only makes countries more backwards – which is detrimental to the acceleration of technological development that is the only way we can truly discover a true divine being.

    Deserts are merely wastelands, which is what obscurantist islam will turn Europe into if this southern volkerwanderung isn’t stopped. Why make the aim of technological revelation that much harder for the industrial and post-industrial world to achieve?

    • Replies: @AaronB
  250. Anon[198] • Disclaimer says:
    @DFH

    Bonnie and Clyde?

    Talha’s Bert and Ernie breaks down because Bert really does seem to be some sort of Islamic hardliner and Ernie is a mischievous puppet.

    A typical “Bert and Ernie” skit has Ernie coming up with a harebrained idea and Bert attempting to talk him out of it

    That was not entirely serious; don’t take it too harshly.

  251. Yevardian says:
    @UrbaneFrancoOntarian

    Eastern Europe will be fine whether or not the US becomes Hispanic thankyou. Having lived in both America and Western Europe, Americans really have very little to complain about regarding Mexicans. I’m with Ron Unz or that deep and profound philosopher of our times, Fred Reed, in this regard.

    • Agree: AP
    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    , @neutral
  252. @TheJester

    1. Establish a liberal welfare state.
    2. Women no longer need men to support them.
    3. Women enter the workforce and revel in their masculine-esque independence.

    You’ve got history backwards. Poverty brought women into the workforce way before welfare existed, and obviously not everyone had a man who could support them. Here’s a blog about Victorian laundresses:

    Since washing and ironing were such exhausting exercise, every housewife dreamed of just taking dirty clothes to the laundry. Those who became laundresses were elderly women, widows or housewives who needed additional income. Husbands of the latter were often seasonal workers with unstable income, disabled people or alcoholics, so the wife had to take the provider function upon herself.

    https://b-a-n-s-h-e-e.livejournal.com/243027.html

    We all may have read (if Russian, were forced to at school) how Dostoyevsky’s Sonya Marmeladova became a seamstress and then a prostitute because her alcoholic father couldn’t provide. And here’s a story about proto-welfare introduced in a factory to alleviate existing conditions of female workers, from Vikenty Veresaev’s Notes of a Doctor.

    In the 1820s, according to Villermé’s research, half of the children of Mühlhausen’s women weavers died before the age of fifteen months. Villermé convinced factory owner Dolfus to let his workers stay home after childbirth for six weeks with their wages kept; this alone was enough to cut infant mortality in half, at once, without any help of medicine.

    What were the fathers of those babies doing, is unknown. I wonder what the weavers would say to Americans who think paid maternity leave is an evil commie thing… some colorful German swearing probably.

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
  253. @Yevardian

    Come on.

    Mestizos are short, ugly, dull, and vote Democrat. Ron Unz grandly proved that they’re not as criminal as blacks. Big whoop.

    Damning with faint praise.

    Mestizos might be okay to have around in large numbers if they were enslaved or made into serfs, but as free citizens equal to us it’s obscene to have them around.

    • Replies: @AP
    , @Anonymous
  254. @Toronto Russian

    Poverty didn’t bring women into the workforce at all. Women were always part of the workforce. In hunter-gatherer times women gathered, and in agricultural times peasant women did all kinds of work.

    Women not working was traditionally only the province of upper class women, who did a lot of “work” in terms of their socializing. Middle and working class women not working was a brief blip of the unusual and unnatural egalitarianism of the postwar era.

    The issue isn’t women working so much as it is female independence, and women focusing on careers before is a symptom of that. And, to be fair, men now being able to access sex easily (or things close enough to sex) outside of marriage.

    Paid maternity leave would be fine if it had eugenic rules associated with it and strictly went to babies born to married parents. I have a pet idea that paid maternity leave should be required but it should also be perfectly legal to discriminate against women and pregnancy. :)

  255. AP says:
    @Thorfinnsson

    Ron Unz grandly proved that they’re not as criminal as blacks

    They also don’t blow themselves and others up.

    Mestizos might be okay to have around in large numbers if they were enslaved or made into serfs, but as free citizens equal to us it’s obscene to have them around

    They are probably comparable to the southern Italian peasants that flooded into the USA 100 or more years ago. Under the right conditions they can eventually turn out like those did. The problem, of course, is that America does not have the right conditions for that; instead it offers easy welfare, and little to no pressure to assimilate WASPish values. However in states that have relatively better conditions, such as Texas, results are better.

    But I think Yevardian was speaking in relative terms: we don’t have nearly the problem that they have in Europe.

  256. @AaronB

    Even in the case of Gaza, if they gave up their dreams and made peace with Israel they can have a much higher quality of life.

    That’s not much of a choice for ordinary Gazans. The choice is accept the lower quality of life or face retribution from others for being a traitor while still not being accepted by Israel.

    What if you tried to think of a better example?

    Basically, you’re saying everyone is super motivated – as motivated as anyone in history –

    You are fighting a straw man. There are enough motivated young men who join movements like identitarians. They cannot get much traction, because that kind of activism has always been for a minority only. I got annoyed at idiotic comparisons with totally non-comparable situations, like you are doing.

    I have seen the fall of communism as a teenager. It was easier in part because the communists never provided enough material comfort to people (enough means more than the ideological opponents in Western Europe), and people didn’t like “what historically would be considered obsene opulence”. It was also easier because it was obviously forced on the country by foreign invaders at gunpoint.

    But the dynamics weren’t that different: very few people were joining the opposition, and they were constantly harassed and lost their jobs (oh, Soros paid them money, so some then dissidents have now admitted that their living standards actually didn’t even decrease at all), but no one was executed or put into forced labor camps. A few people might have been locked up (like now), but not many.

    And then suddenly the system collapsed. We now know it was because of a loss of morale at the very top in the USSR. We can only hope that the very top of the American empire will similarly become progressively more and more stupid. It looks likely it will, but there’s no telling when it will collapse. Could come suddenly, but might take decades. I’d say a couple of decades. I don’t know how late it will be for our civilization by then.

    but just aren’t willing to endure what historically would be considered actual comfort for their cause, because it isn’t what historically would be considered obsene opulence.

    You don’t seem to understand humans, despite having almost twenty-five years of life experience.

    • Replies: @AaronB
  257. @AP

    They are probably comparable to the southern Italian peasants that flooded into the USA 100 or more years ago.

    Cuckservative and liberal meme. The mestizos are racially different, lower IQ, more violent, socially less conservative (what was the illegitimacy rate among those Italians?), with much less contact to their homeland, had actual pressure on them to assimilate to Anglo norms, the assimilation was still not complete (and probably changed the US for the worse anyway), and they are not “under the right conditions” anyway.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    , @AP
  258. @AP

    They also don’t blow themselves and others up.

    Neither did mohammedan guest workers 50 years ago. Islamic terrorism might be a meme that passes. I haven’t heard of the Baader-Meinhoff Gang lately for instance, or of much trouble from the Irish.

    But yes, for now that’s positive.

    Though actually I regard Islamic terrorism as positive, as it makes it easier to convince others they must be gotten rid of.

    Before I edited my post I said they’re just better than mohammedans and blacks–confined it to blacks to focus more on the Unz issue.

    They are probably comparable to the southern Italian peasants that flooded into the USA 100 or more years ago. Under the right conditions they can eventually turn out like those did. The problem, of course, is that America does not have the right conditions for that; instead it offers easy welfare, and little to no pressure to assimilate WASPish values. However in states that have relatively better conditions, such as Texas, results are better.

    They’re not comparable to Southern Italians, who do not have Amerindian DNA. Americans have been living with Indians for centuries, and they’ve never once come close to converging in any respect. And in Latin America you can simply observe the color spectrum. The higher you go, the whiter it gets.

    The bottom line is that they are racially inferior. And even if you were right, and an appropriate culture could get them performing as well as us, you would still need to deal with the fact that they are short and ugly. Why would I want to share a country with short and ugly people?

    But I think Yevardian was speaking in relative terms: we don’t have nearly the problem that they have in Europe.

    What do you mean we, Kemosabe? Until now I only hear about we wuz yuropeanz n sheet about the Ukraine from you.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    , @Yevardian
    , @AP
  259. Dmitry says:
    @reiner Tor

    Do you know any though? The Mexicans I have met so far in my life – made a better impression than the Americans I have met, including in their cultural/intellectual level.

    • Troll: Greasy William
    • Replies: @Ali Choudhury
    , @reiner Tor
  260. Dmitry says:
    @AP

    They are probably comparable to the southern Italian peasants that flooded into the USA 100 or more years ago. Under the right conditions they can eventually turn out like those did. The problem, of course, is that America does not have the right conditions for that; instead it offers easy welfare, and little to no pressure to assimilate WASPish values. However in states that have relatively better conditions, such as Texas, results are better.

    But I think Yevardian was speaking in relative terms: we don’t have nearly the problem that they have in Europe.

    Mexico’s economy is somewhere half way between Ukraine and Russia, in GDP per capita.

    In my personal experience (I have studied alongside Mexicans in the internal summer courses), some are clearly more advanced and civilized than average people in Europe or America.

  261. Dmitry says:
    @Thorfinnsson

    . And even if you were right, and an appropriate culture could get them performing as well as us, you would still need to deal with the fact that they are short and ugly. Why would I want to share a country with short and ugly people?

    I already know it is not completely true.

    I just remember one of the summer language courses I took when I was a teenager (in a countryside near London – appropriately for this topic about visiting England). There was a beautiful brown girl from Mexico City. The most beautiful girl on the course. About 1,75 meters. Also on this same course there was a beautiful pale quiet girl from Chile.

  262. Yevardian says:
    @Thorfinnsson

    Impressions on the whole I’ve have of Hispanics are positive and if on the whole they’re dim, they’re at least good natured and have no animus against western civilisation, being a peripheral part of it themselves.
    Imo if you want to complain about squat, rapey, ugly people with an astronomic birthrate and backward culture then look at India. Hispanics don’t groom children, wipe their asses with their hands, represent an enemy superpower, wage jihad or have a sub 75 IQ. I don’t really care about the US anyway, but you still don’t really have anything to worry about compared to the rest of the world.

    • Replies: @AP
    , @Thorfinnsson
  263. @Seraphim

    IslamiStIslamist movements have taken off as a reaction against Western dominance not out of some insane scheme to convert the world. The entry of US troops into Saudi Arabia set Bin Laden off in targeting Westerners for attacks, similarly you usually see a spike in terrorist attacks when one Muslim country or another is being bombed by the West. The dominant narrative of Islamists is that Islam is being attacked on all sides by those who want to eliminate Muslims not world conquest.

    The Muslim practice of prayer was borrowed from Eastern Orthodox Christians who similarly raise their bottoms in the air as you term it to prostrate themselves before the Almighty.

    • Replies: @Seraphim
    , @Svigor
  264. @Dmitry

    Yes, I would have to say one of the most capable professionals I have met was a Mexican consultant who got the highest performance ratings of anyone I have seen. However he was from the white elite not the ones trying to work in domestic service in the US.

  265. @Talha

    But in the UK (and for all I know in the US) Muslims and other minorities are privileged under law. We don’t live in Central Asia, either geographically or mentally.

    Equality now is literally defined as NOT treating everyone the same – you can have a housing project for Muslims only but not for Christians only. Muslims and Jews get to the front of the queue for death certificates, because their culture and religion requires quick burial, but a Christian baker in Belfast HAS to bake cakes bearing pro-homosexual slogans and never mind his culture or religion.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-43922000

  266. @German_reader

    It’s also difficult for these identitarians to go violent.

    Violent against whom? Attacking the Antifa would get many members into jail (and into cells with Muslims), while Antifa are only lowly enforcers of the system. Violence against government ministers is difficult (there’s a reason why Muslims almost never do that). Besides, any violence will be used as a pretext to crack down on all forms of right wing agitation or organizations. It will also be used in propaganda to elicit sympathy for the “innocent victims” (even if they were violent Antifa members or government ministers or public prosecutors who started and conducted campaigns to destroy the lives of peaceful activists). In any event, Islam is not getting stronger because of the violence (rather despite of it), so it seems pointless.

    What is especially pathetic is that Austria now has a theoretically kinda sorta nationalist government.

    In Hungary Orbán has cracked down on Jobbik (his authorities fined it so much that now it cannot afford to participate in a by-election, albeit it’s in Budapest where Jobbik has little chances anyway), this is one of the reasons why Jobbik was increasingly drifting to the left.

    The interesting thing is that not only are these identitarians nonviolent, I think they are anti-”racism” and even anti-evolution, too. Maybe that’s not a big disadvantage, but it could well end up as a dead end: any institution or movement which is not explicitly racialist will end up being equalitarian and so useless.

    • Replies: @Mitleser
    , @German_reader
  267. neutral says:
    @Yevardian

    Eastern Europe will be fine whether or not the US becomes Hispanic thankyou.

    Lets put it this way: would you be ok with Eastern Europe being majority Mexican? If not then how can you expect other whites to be ok with it?

  268. @Dmitry

    Personal experience has not been bad, for example I also know a very pretty (somewhat brown-skinned, but mostly European looking with some mystery meat sauce) and also apparently smart Mexican girl (well, a distant acquaintance), but obviously the kinds of diverse people we will meet will be a very small self-selected sample, so just anecdotes.

    The plural of anecdotes is data, and data doesn’t show them to be so good.

    • Replies: @AP
    , @Dmitry
  269. JackOH says:

    Anatoly, thanks.

    The last political demonstration I spontaneously (more or less) joined out of human sympathy was a pro-Second Amendment group that was demonstrating in favor of more liberalized gun laws in Ohio. The demonstration had been preceded by a few local pols uttering some truly awful demonizing ad hominem crap about gun owners. I’m not a gun owner, but I favored liberalization, I knew gun owners to be sober and law-abiding types, and I was genuinely horrified by the rhetoric of a few local political slobs.

    I showed up. The demonstrators were polite and made their points quietly and with conviction. They were well-groomed, some dressed in American Wild West style.

    Anyway, I’ve proposed on these pages a while back a Million Geek March on Washington to protest the proletarianization of America’s managerial, technical, and professional classes. Keep the optics good with white shirts, keep the talking points simple, and work on good follow-through. Anyone out there with the right organizational chops and bankroll?

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  270. @JackOH

    Anyway, I’ve proposed on these pages a while back a Million Geek March on Washington to protest the proletarianization of America’s managerial, technical, and professional classes. Keep the optics good with white shirts, keep the talking points simple, and work on good follow-through

    Twitter: #GeekMarchSoWhite

    Vice: “The problem with the term ‘Geeks’ and the implicit racism within.”

    New York Times: “What should we think about the notion of ‘geek’ culture?”

    Mother Jones: “Its Time We had a talk about White People and Geeks.”

    Quartz: “The Million Geeks marching against social progress.”

    And every single MSM outlet will comment that this is a “disturbing display of elitism and populism” on the same day, using the exact same words that they independently came up with somehow.

    • LOL: Hyperborean
    • Replies: @JackOH
  271. @Talha

    My daughter is only half-white theoretically (though everyone is surprised when I tell them, so for the moment she looks white). Maybe I’m personally not toast.

    Anyway, since nationalists are in such a weak position now, their hope lies mostly in their enemies making mistakes. The system oppressing them is not sustainable anyway, so over time it will collapse. It’s a question what will be salvaged from the rubble.

    • Replies: @Yevardian
  272. JackOH says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    “Million Geek March canceled amid fears participants will be called nasty names by the New York Times and Tom Brokaw.”

    Daniel, bro’, you wanna read that story? Think about it—we’re already being characterized as weird-asses living on the underside of wet rocks. I’m seeing here on UR a talented commentariat with real grievances that need to be well-framed and see the light of day.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  273. @Yevardian

    Let’s just keep our identities shrouded in mystery.

  274. Unzerker says:

    Main component were white men, muscular-fat, tattooed prole types, the sort you associate with football hooligans;

    Your photos don’t match this description.

    • Agree: Svigor
    • Replies: @Philip Owen
  275. Seraphim says:
    @Ali Choudhury

    You know, as well as I know (and in fact anyone who cares to get informed about Islam) that this ‘taqyia’ is just that, a lie. You lie to yourself and to us. The difference is that you believe your own lies, whereas we don’t. Muslims started slaughtering Christians and kept doing that for centuries before any Crusade (which were a tardy and unfortunately inefficient response to Muslim aggression).

  276. @JackOH

    My opinion is the investment with the best return is to fund this fella.

  277. Anon 2 says:

    OT: The U.S. govt just reported that the overall fertility rate
    declined to 1.76 in 2017. For non-Hispanic whites it was down to 1.72.
    As recently as in 2007, right before the Great Recession, it was still 2.08.
    The U.S. fertility rates are basically in free fall for all racial groups.

    I recall how only 10-15 years ago the U.S. was still boasting about its youthful
    energy and high fertility rates as compared to the Old Continent. And now
    what? Everything indicates that the U.S. fertility rate will decline to 1.3 – 1.5
    in the next few years. One reason is that marriage rates have also been
    in severe decline in recent years. About 70% of divorces are initiated by
    women, and with the divorce-industrial complex being what it is in the
    U.S. the phrase that one hears in America these days is that seeing
    a man get married is like seeing a lamb being led to slaughter

    • Replies: @Anon 2
  278. Mitleser says:
    @reiner Tor

    What is especially pathetic is that Austria now has a theoretically kinda sorta nationalist government.

    With emphasis on “now”.
    Austria has been dominated by social democrats and cuckseratives for many decades and the federal president is a former Green politician.

  279. Mitleser says:
    @Seraphim

    Crusades in Iberia were sufficiently efficient.

    • Replies: @Seraphim
  280. Art Deco says:
    @German_reader

    Franco wasn’t really artful in avoiding WW2 involvement though, he actually would have liked to join on the Axis side since he had quite delusional ideas about making Spain a great imperial power again. It’s just that he never felt the time was quite right and that Spain clearly wasn’t ready for entering the war given its rather wrecked economy.

    IOW, he wasn’t delusional.

    • Agree: Johann Ricke
    • Replies: @German_reader
  281. Anon 2 says:
    @Anon 2

    Re: U.S. fertility rate

    I don’t know how widespread this is but I keep hearing
    an opinion in the U.S. that basically says,” Why bring children
    into the world when the United States is in such severe decline?”

  282. @UrbaneFrancoOntarian

    Mae culpa,

    i just read the ticker-headline on some other site a few weeks ago. But radio-broadcast from one of the public-channel states that Al-Sisi reintroduced the family-program and most importantly rolls it out to the rural communes. We will see how fast it goes down. After all the Tiger economies needed 20 years.

  283. Seraphim says:
    @Mitleser

    Yes, they have been efficient, but their success was limited to Iberia. The others failed in what would have been the end of the problem, eradication of the cause. They ‘sinned’, in the real sense of ‘sin’ – missing the target. They turned against their own and they snatched defeat from the jaws of victory.

  284. AP says:
    @reiner Tor

    Cuckservative and liberal meme.

    I don’t care who says something, the data are important.

    The mestizos are racially different

    Correct. They are about 40% European-Spanish.

    lower IQ

    Correct. Jensen, who demonstrated that African lower IQ is organic in nature, also insisted that Native American and Mestizo lower IQ is environmental in nature, the same for European peasants from an earlier time.

    This of course isn’t a good argument for immigration – we don’t need a large influx of people with low IQ people into the modern economy.

    Ron Unz:

    http://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/race-iq-and-wealth/comment-page-2/

    Ron Guhname, who styles himself “The Inductivist” and every couple of days publishes a new finding on his website. In 2008, he decided to explore the Wordsum-implied IQ of American-born Mexican-Americans and discovered a remarkable result. These IQs were quite low, 84–85, in the 1970s and 1980s, a result consistent with the IQ samples reported by Lynn/Vanhanen for that era. But the Mexican-American IQ then jumped 7 points by the 1990s and an additional 3 points by the 2000s, a rise of 10 full points in just 20 years, while the Wordsum-implied IQ values for white Americans rose merely 2 points during that same period, presumably as an aspect of the regular Flynn Effect.

    In actual values, the Mexican-American Wordsum-IQ increased from 84.4 in the 1980s to 95.1 in the 2000s, while the rise for American whites was from 99.2 to 101.3. In addition, the late 1990s IQ of U.S.-born Mexican-Americans has been separately estimated at 92.4 from the large data set contained in the National Longitudinal Survey of Youth (NLSY-97), a figure consistent with these Wordsum-IQ findings.

    Thus, almost two-thirds of the IQ gap between American-born Mexican-Americans and whites disappeared in two decades, with these results being based on nationally-representative American samples of statistically significant size. Since Guhname is a right-wing blogger quite hostile to Hispanic immigration, it is to his credit that he published this result without hesitation, and to the embarrassment of America’s vast multicultural academic and media establishment that they had never independently discovered these important findings, nor indeed even noticed them once they appeared. In any event, it appears that Mexican-American IQs in America have been rising about as rapidly as Irish IQs seem to have risen in Europe.

    more violent

    Ron Unz dispelled this myth:

    http://www.unz.com/article/the-myth-of-hispanic-crime/

    Did you know that El Paso, Texas – 80% Mexican – has the lowest homicide rate among large US cities?

    socially less conservative

    So are modern day poor whites, who have high rates of illegitimacy (see Murray’s Coming Apart).

    Poor Mexicans are largely acting like poor white people do. I suspect 100 years ago when poor white people were more moral, Mexicans were also.

    with much less contact to their homeland, had actual pressure on them to assimilate to Anglo norms

    These are problems that I described also.

    Anyways, the point being – Americans are very lucky compared to Europeans with respect to their immigration situation.

  285. AP says:
    @reiner Tor

    Personal experience has not been bad

    A close friend from eastern Europe, who votes for an anti-migrant party and hates Merkel (thus, he is no kind of liberal or self-hating European), lives down in Texas. He likes Mexicans.

    The plural of anecdotes is data, and data doesn’t show them to be so good

    Data suggest that they are a lot like European peasants.

    I am not suggesting that America shouldn’t put a moratorium on such immigration until assimilation proceeds. It should. Just as it was a good idea to stop the Italian flood in the 1920s. I’m just being realistic about these nature of these people.

    • Replies: @Svigor
  286. @Seraphim

    If that is what you reckon then there is not much use in trying to persuade you otherwise. Muslims are quite aware of how backward, poor and weak their societies are. The prospect of taking on the rest of the world is a pipe dream.

    • Replies: @RadicalCenter
  287. @Dmitry

    In my personal experience (I have studied alongside Mexicans in the internal summer courses), some are clearly more advanced and civilized than average people in Europe or America.

    Internal to?

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  288. AP says:
    @Dmitry

    Mexico’s economy is somewhere half way between Ukraine and Russia, in GDP per capita

    Sure, in per capita terms. It even beats Belarus! But it is distributed much less evenly. Mexico’s top 10% live well. In Mexico the richest 10% make 22x more than do the poorest 10%. In Ukraine and Belarus these figures are 6x more and 7X more, respectively.

    So statistics about average income in Mexico don’t tell us much about how typical Mexicans live.

    Data from 2012:

    https://www.worldeconomicsassociation.org/newsletterarticles/inequality-in-mexico/

    Mexicans in the middle 10% made 1843 pesos or 93.44 American dollars per month!

    These figures of course do not take into account cost of living and things have improved since 2012 – but you can get an idea.

    In my personal experience (I have studied alongside Mexicans in the internal summer courses), some are clearly more advanced and civilized than average people in Europe or America

    I have a few friends of wealthy Latin American backgrounds. An old acquaintance from university married a Mexican girl, the daughter of a diplomat. The situation down there is a much milder version of Eastern Europe prior to the Industrial Revolution. Well-educated, wealthy, well-traveled, civilized elite, illiterate or semi-literate masses (I’ve noticed that educated Latinos tend to enjoy classic Russian literature more than other people do, perhaps it depicts a world not completely unfamiliar to theirs). The reason for Polish jokes in the USA is that a lot of Polish peasants in the 19th century came to America.

  289. Anonymous[392] • Disclaimer says:
    @Thorfinnsson

    Hehehe.

    Spoken like a true Hindu. Indians are also short, ugly, and vote democrat.

    Too bad they are so rapey or else this comparison would be closer.

    Also, Indians are not worth keeping as slaves so you need to go back.

  290. AP says:
    @Yevardian

    Impressions on the whole I’ve have of Hispanics are positive and if on the whole they’re dim, they’re at least good natured and have no animus against western civilisation, being a peripheral part of it themselves.

    Pretty much. They speak a European language and follow a European religion.

    A Mexican party, allegedly in Texas:

    • Replies: @RadicalCenter
  291. AaronB says:
    @reiner Tor

    Hmmm, I would rather teach my children what the Jews teach theirs – that anything is possible, and that physical comfort isn’t particularly important. You know, the same thing Europeans used to teach their kids before the great despair claimed them.

    So, you can go on believing that comfort is the main driver of human history, and that difficulties and obstacles are insurmountable – if it pleases you.

    You realize, however, that by spreading your despair you are morally culpable, and will have to answer to your maker. If you are old and seized with despair, you have a responsibility to step aside and not try and destroy life for others. Your generation is the one that surrendered to Jews despite being much more intelligent than them, as we are now discovering, merely out of despair, and generally messed everything up. Instead of recanting and apologizing, you seek to infect new generations with your poison, consumed by envy that others have an optimism you could never have.

    So he it. That is your choice. But there are karmic consequences for trying to poison others. And not just you – but Randal and all the rest of you despairing old men.

    • Replies: @DFH
    , @Anon
  292. DFH says:
    @AaronB

    what the Jews teach theirs – that anything is possible, and that physical comfort isn’t particularly important.

    KEK, have you ever met a Jew? Perhaps this is what they teach them in Israel (I wouldn’t know), it certainly isn’t in Western countreis

    • Agree: Tyrion 2
    • Replies: @AaronB
  293. AP says:
    @Thorfinnsson

    They’re not comparable to Southern Italians, who do not have Amerindian DNA.

    They are all swarthy, Catholic peasants.

    If you saw this guy outside a Home Depot early in the morning somewhere in Texas you’d assume he was a Mexican:

    And he is from Milan, not even the south.

    Here is Italian-American actor Al Lettieri, same thing:

    Mestizos are about 40% European and 55% Native American (65% European paternally and 10%-15% European maternally).

    you would still need to deal with the fact that they are short and ugly

    They tend to be obese, just like poor white people. I wouldn’t consider them to be uglier or prettier otherwise.

    Until now I only hear about we wuz yuropeanz n sheet about the Ukraine from you.

    I live here.

  294. @reiner Tor

    What is especially pathetic is that Austria now has a theoretically kinda sorta nationalist government.

    Problem is that the ÖVP probably isn’t really reliable, I’ve seen Austrian right-wingers on the net voice the suspicion that Kurz is basically a con man, tasked by the establishment with defanging the right.

    The interesting thing is that not only are these identitarians nonviolent, I think they are anti-”racism” and even anti-evolution, too.

    No, I think you’re totally wrong about that, the identitarians in Germany and Austria are pretty much explicit ethnic nationalists. They claim to be against “racism” in the sense of not explicitly believing in racial hierarchies, wanting to rule over other races etc., but favour ethnopluralism (pretty much “we don’t care what they’re doing in their countries, but keep them out of ours”).

  295. AaronB says:
    @Hyperborean

    I don’t shill for Islam – I just don’t think it’s terrible, and I think any religion is better than modern secularism. Most of the animosity towards Islam is driven by secularism – so I defend Islam in that context. If we were debating the merits of Islam or Buddhism, I may say different things.

    Not do I have any interest in technological advance. Not against it, I just don’t think it’s hugely important. However, I respect those like Karin and Chieh who see technology as basically a transcendent religious project – those who see it merely as comfort, bore me.

    Western style Buddhism is terrible – fake, superficial, and completely gets it wrong.

    Buddhism was tried in Europe and failed, it’s only popular among a minority. It’s ultimately too mystical for the dry, factual, concrete European mind, which needs something to grasp onto – while Buddhism says you should relinquish all ideas and not take logic too seriously. Europeans wallow in ideas. Maybe in the future, after the collapse, Europeans will be more receptive to Buddhism.

    Mysticism was always a somewhat marginal movement in the west, although it had periods where it was more popular, while mysticism is the very basis of religion in Asia.

    Sufism manages to combine mysticism with more concrete elements, making it more suitable for occidentals. Orthodox Christianity is also more mystical but with enough concrete elements to appeal to occidentals.

    Old-school Catholicism might also do very well – and may be the most suitable for the Western mind.

    Protestantism and Mormonism seem very low on the religious scale to me, very materialistic and full of ego, but even they are better than nothing.

    The point is, different forms of spirituality are suitable for different people – if you are capable of little spirituality, then maybe Mormonism or Judaism is suitable for you. If higher, then maybe Buddhism or Taoism.

    • Replies: @AP
    , @Jayce
  296. AaronB says:
    @DFH

    Nope, never met a Jew. Please educate me on what American Jews teach their kids.

  297. @Art Deco

    He had delusional ideas about making Spain a great imperial power with a large colonial empire again which would have meant war with Britain. Part of the reason why he didn’t join the Axis side was also that he felt Hitler wasn’t generous enough (iirc he wanted a large part of French North Africa, and Hitler was unwilling to acquiesce in that since it would have meant trouble with Vichy France). Just read the biography by Stanley Payne if you don’t believe me (it’s a good book anyway, and in general quite sympathetic to the man).

  298. @Dmitry

    In my personal experience (I have studied alongside Mexicans in the internal summer courses), some are clearly more advanced and civilized than average people in Europe or America.

    Yes…some. What sort of Mexican do you think studies abroad in Europe?

    Mexico is allegedly 9% white, with the upper classes being heavily white. Take former Mexican President Vicente Fox for instance, a blue-eyed 6’5″ retired Coca Cola executive of Irish descent. Not exactly your typical Mexican, who has Spanish Y-DNA and Amerindian matrilineal DNA and whose grandparents were not even literate.

    Mexico’s economy is also artificially larger than it deserves to be owing to bordering the United States and the criminally irresponsible NAFTA treaty.

    • Replies: @Yevardian
  299. @Dmitry

    I already know it is not completely true.

    I just remember one of the summer language courses I took when I was a teenager (in a countryside near London – appropriately for this topic about visiting England). There was a beautiful brown girl from Mexico City. The most beautiful girl on the course. About 1,75 meters. Also on this same course there was a beautiful pale quiet girl from Chile.

    Once again…what sort of Mexican do you think takes a summer language course in London? Someone from the upper class. Quite noteworthy that she was from Mexico City as well, which is the capital of Mexico and has a heavy concentration of elites. Most wealthy people in Mexico in fact live in Mexico City (or Monterrey).

    And yes, there are some beautiful mestizas. But on the whole they are uglier (and absolutely shorter–and it’s not good to be short), and even if that were not true I value the preservation of the recessive Northern European phenotype.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  300. @Dmitry

    Yes, people you’d meet studying in the summer are typical and representative of the relatively unintelligent 100-million-plus Indio and mestizo population of Mexico — and of their huge-assed cousins who are colonizing the former USA.

  301. @Yevardian

    Hispanics are indeed good natured and have no animus against Western civilization, being in fact part of it.

    But you’re still playing this game of pointing out other groups which happen to be crappier.

    The fact that lots of human populations are crappier than mestizos is not an argument in favor of mestizos, who are absolute mediocrities.

    If present policies continue our indigenous working class will be replaced by mestizos, which has already happened in many parts of the country. This means that the lower classes will be shorter and uglier and have stupid Spanish names, permanently. Probably lower IQ as well, as Mexican-American IQ is 89 on average whereas the very stupidest white state (West Virginia) is 97. That’s objectionable and bad government policy.

    Then there’s the fact that mestizos vote Democrat (fortunately with low levels of participation at least). Democrats increasingly dream of turning America into South Africa it seems. Some are even calling for the abolition of immigration and customs enforcement. They’re crazy and must be kept from attaining power ever again.

    Anyone who is a proponent of mestizos has to explain why what happened to California, which has been completely destroyed, will not also happen to the rest of America.

    We are also at risk of mohammedan immigration taking off, incidentally. Our mohammedan population has tripled since 9-11, and unless we can end chain migration it will keep growing. Fortunately Trump has moved decisively to squash mohammedan rapefugees.

    • Replies: @German_reader
  302. @Dmitry

    Dmitry, man, i am glad for your positive experiences with Mexicans, and of course I’ve had them as well. But don’t be naive, get out more and get a wider acquaintance with Mexicans ;)

    I see sexy Mexican women every day because there are soooooo many Mexicans here in LA. I also have a Mexican friend who is quite intelligent and thoughtful (almost all Indian, from southern Mexico) and a Mexican acquaintance who is an impressive intellect and personality (pretty much completely white). I’m aware of the physical and intellectual diversity in that population.

    But I also see a FAR greater number of absolutely hideous waddling trolls. Usually with an enormous iPhone sticking out of the back pocket of their equally enormous jeans. Often with children in tow for whom I am buying groceries, medical care, and “education.”

    I associate with three younger Mexican-“American” women at work. Each one more morbidly obese than the next, and two of them semiliterate in two languages despite having graduated from those fine LA Government high schools. I’ve recounted elsewhere how one of them matter of flatly told me that she was not going to marry her boyfriend so that she could keep her MediCal benefits, even though they have a child together and plan to have another.

    • Replies: @AaronB
    , @Dmitry
  303. @Thorfinnsson

    Fortunately Trump has moved decisively to squash mohammedan rapefugees.

    Just too bad that he’s also aligned the US even more with horrible Saudi-Arabia which will preclude cracking down on Islamic immigration like it would be necessary.
    If he starts a large Mideast war, it will also mean even more Islamic refugees (some even possibly genuine) in Europe.

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
  304. @Ali Choudhury

    The pipe dream proceeds apace in the UK and most of western and Central Europe, though, doesn’t it?

    • Replies: @Ali Choudhury
  305. @Anon 2

    Backwards, defeatist, cowardly, nihilistic reasoning. Other than that, I see their point.

  306. AP says:
    @AaronB

    I think any religion is better than modern secularism.

    So you think that Mosul before the Americans bombed it was better than Stockholm?

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    , @AaronB
  307. Jayce says:
    @AaronB

    I think any religion is better than modern secularism

    Seems to me any genuinely spiritual person would be more discerning and wary of false prophets and false gods. Your whole mindset is basically the same kind that got millions of spaced-out boomers press ganged into cults or molested by phony Indian “gurus” back in the 70s.

    • Replies: @AaronB
  308. @German_reader

    Foreign policy has been perhaps the biggest letdown of the Trump Presidency, but alignment with Saudi Arabia doesn’t cause problems with that at all. Islamic governments don’t give a shit at all about our immigration policy. Actual mohammedan governments apparently love Trump in fact, probably because they’re impressed with his machismo and swagger.

    What precludes cracking down on mohammedan immigration completely (as in 100%, other than maybe intracompany executive transfers) is just baby boomerism and the idea that one must have “equality” and “fairness” etc.

    And of course The Enemy, which means we’re presently unable to pass restrictionist legislation in Congress. And without such legislation we’ll get swamped by chain migration.

    The President technically has the power to suspend all immigration by executive order, but this will be (illegally) stopped by the courts. And for some reason Trump keeps obeying these black-robed terrorists. If we get lucky he takes a good look at the painting of Andrew Jackson he hung in the Oval Office and learns about how Old Hickory dealt with the terrorist kritarchs of his time.

  309. AaronB says:
    @RadicalCenter

    American culture pretty much makes everyone degenerate – and the effect is particularly strong on people from lower socio-economic backgrounds, although no one is spared.

    I would not consider mexicans in la typical of anything other than the degenerative effects of American values.

    When considered as potential ingredients in a new American culture with higher values, mexicans will be fine, no worse than many other elements. Certainly the low-class white, or the loud, vulgar low-class Chinese that you find in Asia, or the ghetto Jew, are hideous specimens of humanity – worse than the placid and inoffensive mexican.

    But all are capable of refinement elevation in a culture with good values.

    • Replies: @DFH
    , @RadicalCenter
  310. @AP

    Apples and oranges.

    Stockholm a century ago however was much better than Stockholm today, other than that tunelbanan (the subway) did not open until 1950.

    And even in the subway the cultural collapse is obvious, and was obvious before there were any non-whites using it.

    The stations are for instance full of “art”. The “art” in question being hideous garbage.

    You can also compare all the buildings in Stockholm built before the war to those built after.

    • Replies: @German_reader
    , @AP
  311. DFH says:
    @AaronB

    What is it with you and your fetishism of xenos?

    • Replies: @AaronB
  312. @Thorfinnsson

    You can also compare all the buildings in Stockholm built before the war to those built after.

    I don’t see how that has necessarily anything to do with religion/secularism, the more obvious culprits are mass society and socialism imo.

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
  313. AaronB says:
    @AP

    Hmmm, Iraq was a secular regime wasn’t it? Everything good in Stockholm – it’s beautiful architecture, it’s human scale, it’s traditional food culture, the attention to dress and appearance – is a residue of the older religious culture. The modern secular culture is destroying Sweden.

    In Mosul, there is much perverted and twisted religion and much that is bad – but is it committing suicide? Does it suffer the twisted mental afflictions of the Swedes?

    Yes, modern secular society is the worst – it is also suicidal.

    • Replies: @German_reader
    , @AP
  314. @AaronB

    Yes, modern secular society is also suicidal.

    Maybe, but your statement “any religion is better than modern secularism” is still idiotic. Do you want to tell us that some cult worshipping the Aztec rain god, putting children into cages and fattening them up for sacrifice would be preferable to modern Western secularism, which in any case still contains significant elements of its Christian heritage?
    If so, you’re simply a moron, sorry.

    • Replies: @Anon
    , @AaronB
  315. AaronB says:
    @Jayce

    I get it – spirituality is dangerous it can lead to false prophets etc. This can happen within traditional religions too – it’s no safeguard. There are ways to address this issue, but addressing the basics of spirituality as I am is necessary.

    Life is dangerous – deal with it. It’s just one more manifestation of the Western weariness and despair that it wants to make life perfectly safe and free of risk.

  316. Anon[198] • Disclaimer says:
    @AaronB

    Hmmm, I would rather teach my children what the Jews teach theirs

    Okay, sounds like a plan. Update us on how it turns out.

  317. AaronB says:
    @DFH

    It’s not that I fetishisize xenos – it’s that I oppose secularism.

    I oppose making statements about the innate qualities of Mexicans when they are currently the products of secularism – and I oppose criticising Islam from the secular standpoint.

    But I am on record supporting white group identity based on religion plus ethnicity.

    I do think the USA however will break up, and a mosaic of regional identities will emerge, and that we can’t judge the contributions of any group based on how they function under secularism.

    • Replies: @DFH
  318. @German_reader

    We underwent some kind of cultural collapse in the 20th century, and part of this cultural collapse involves the loss of religion. This cultural collapse is physically manifest in our cities.

    Of course it would be unfair to blame all of this on religion, or even culture.

    Some of it is just technology. For instance with traditional building materials and techniques, it is nearly impossible to build a hideous building. It can be done, but requires effort.

    With modern building technology like reinforced concrete, steel frames, etc. it is in fact quite easy to build ugly structures. My factory for instance is a steel building. It’s ugly. If it were built a century ago it would’ve been built of brick and be handsome.

    And then there’s the motor car. Car-oriented development is usually ugly.

    But this still doesn’t explain why after the war it became in fact highly fashionable to design and construct buildings intentionally designed to be hideous. Boston City Hall being a particularly amusing example.

  319. Anon[198] • Disclaimer says:
    @German_reader

    If so, you’re simply a moron, sorry.

    He’s not a moron. He’s one of AK’s pet trolls. His schtick is to be the Ugly American, hippie edition, and he’s very good at it and fun to read about half the time (which is probably more than me). Also he says genuinely clever and insightful things once in a while, though just now I can’t remember any.

  320. DFH says:
    @AaronB

    I oppose making statements about the innate qualities of Mexicans when they are currently the products of secularism

    You’re right; we should judge their human-sacrificing ancestors instead

  321. AaronB says:
    @German_reader

    As crazy as it may sound to you, I would argue that.

    Let me be clear – modern secular culture leads to depression and ultimately widespread suicidal tendencies. If it were to last another hundred years you will see mass waves of suicide.

    Aztec religion was grotesque and I would never defend it as an ideal, but it is indisputably true that it created much beauty and internal satisfaction for many people over a long period of time. The Spanish were stunned by the beauty of the culture. It is objectively better than modern secularism – how many people today are sacrificed to the opioid epidemic, to the Moloch of consumerism, to the various wars that our modern culture creates? Are we really less violent than the Aztecs? They were just more honest about it. The Aztecs sacrificed people on their pyramids – we invade Iraq and kill thousands. We create empty, broken lives by the millions.

    Yet of course the choice is not between human sacrifice and secular modernity. You’re really reaching.

  322. @RadicalCenter

    How so? They are running away from countries run by Muslims to ones that are not. About the only non-Muslim country which officially recognises Shariah law is Israel which of course is well known for its solicitous and docile attitude towards the followers of Islam.

    • Replies: @songbird
    , @Seraphim
  323. @AaronB

    Let me be clear – modern secular culture leads to depression and ultimately widespread suicidal tendencies.

    Maybe, but I’d say that’s more a result of social atomization, religion is only relevant here through its communal aspects, not because of some abstract “faith in God”.
    Anyway, I don’t even really see what’s supposed to be wrong with depression and suicide, they can be rational reactions to lucidly seeing the world as it is. You seem to believe one should just resolve to believe in something for the sake of personal happiness. That’s a childish attitude imo.

  324. @AaronB

    For what it is worth, I think that you may have misjudged German_Reader in some ways.

    He is an academic, if I recall correctly; if he was a peak materialist, he would almost certainly be trying to maximize a wage somewhere and Germany still being one of the best places in Europe to do that. He presumable values the hopes that his work would be more value than joining the teeming mass of workers, although given the current academic environment and the likely attitudes of his colleagues, it probably effectively creates a daily hostile and rather depressing environment to live in, with a lot of sunk cost of effort as well.

    • Replies: @AaronB
  325. AP says:
    @Thorfinnsson

    I don’t disagree, but is, say, even a modern part of Stockholm, built in the 1980s, better or worse than Mosul?

    Sure extreme progessivism is worse than traditional (Christian) Western culture but it is not worse than any religious culture. Gender nuetral nonsense in modern Sweden like havng boys play with dolls and girls with trucks isn’t worse than the stuff they did in ISIS-ruled Mosul or Taliban-ruled Afghanistan.

  326. @German_reader

    I think that Mr. Karlin once addressed this: a lot of things are rational, but paradoxically are evolutionarily un-ideal. It is most rational to live one’s life as a hedonist and not be worried about any future beyond one’s life, at least if the stated goal is to maximize pleasure. It can be a poor strategy genetically, however.

    There’s a reasonable argument that the modern environment wrecks havoc with our evolved senses and instincts, and leads to a number of issues, e.g. obesity, childlessness, and so on. The story of Rat Utopia, for example, would seem to be a potential animal model for this.

    • Replies: @German_reader
  327. AP says:
    @AaronB

    Hmmm, Iraq was a secular regime wasn’t it?

    I was talking about Mosul under ISIS, not under Saddam. But if you think it was better under ISIS than under the secularist Baath government I can’t help you.

    In Mosul, there is much perverted and twisted religion and much that is bad – but is it committing suicide? Does it suffer the twisted mental afflictions of the Swedes

    I’d say kidnapping and using 12 year old girls as sex slaves as Islamists do in Iraq is worse than making boys play with dolls as secularisrts do in Sweden but I guess we disagree about that.

    • Replies: @AaronB
    , @RadicalCenter
  328. @Daniel Chieh

    I think that Mr. Karlin once addressed this: a lot of things are rational, but paradoxically are evolutionarily un-ideal

    That’s true, but I still think it’s very difficult to consciously adopt a belief because you know it to be useful…it feels intellectually dishonest to me.
    And in any case, at least the Western European forms of Christianity are definitely maladaptive today since they’re all about throwing the borders open as wide as possible and welcoming millions of Muslims. Both irrational and evolutionarily likely to be a dead end.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    , @iffen
  329. AP says:
    @AaronB

    how many people today are sacrificed to the opioid epidemic,

    Because dying of a self-administered drug is as bad as getting kidnapped and having your beating heart ripped out by a priest wearing skin made out of humans. Because the latter are religious.

    Okay.

    Are we really less violent than the Aztecs

    Yes.

    We should be grateful they were in the Stone Age and did not possess modern weapons.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  330. AaronB says:
    @German_reader

    Ah, but I have finally understood that they hang together – individualism goes with materialism, community with spirituality. The reason is that a sense of community depends on seeing invisible bonds that units you. The more you examine the issue, the more you see there is a common root for all modern phenomena, and a common root for all pre-modern phenomena. We cannot pick and choose, because they are manifestations of an underlying master idea.

    As for “seeing the world as it is” – he ha ha. You are German, but apparently you have not read your Kant. A pity. H showed that our senses, combined with our logical faculty, produce a picture of reality that contradicts itself, if applied with absolute consistency. Yet you ignore this and babble on about “seeing the world as it is”. Materialism is not seeing the world as it is – it is a dogmatic position that ignores its own self-contradictions. To briefly touch the tip of the iceberg – supposedly our minds are products of evolution, whose guiding principles is survival not truth, yet our senses and logical mind are vehicles for seeing the world as it is!

    You live in a mental prison – your conceit that it is “reality” is a childish self-consoling device, meant to gratify your ego.

    • Replies: @German_reader
  331. songbird says:
    @Dmitry

    Mexicans are not converging on Euro norms. The proof positive is that in my area (not even many Hispanics as states go) they talk of closing the Hispanic-white gap in student achievement. This is the exact same thing they have tried to do with blacks for well over 60 yrs.

    My first experience of blacks in the subway was of a young black boy playing with matches – lighting them and tossing them into his mouth. My first experience with Hispanics on the subway was me overhearing them laughing about how they bullied some kid at school.

    The one Hispanic boy I grew up with was not a bad guy. His family was nice too, but he wrapped his car around a telephone pole. I know that is incident, but one of the other early ones I knew basically thinks Trump is Hitler. I understand they feel a sort of claim on the US – but because they think they are the beneficiaries of open borders – they take up the rhetoric. And the rhetoric, if carried to its logical conclusion, will result in Europe being toast, and to me that is unforgivable.

    There is a certain gentility that exists in Latin America, among some classes, where they have family values. I hate to say it, but many lose those values, when they come to a decadent US. I still prefer them to many others, but it is only a benefit locally when they are pushing out blacks. The Hispanic population growing means a political and economic convergence with Mexico. Mexico is an interesting place – there are many worse – but it is not a First World country, nor is it likely to ever become one, except through the benefits futurism, if they ever have time to arrive.

    Last time I had jury duty, the court was filled with brown people (mostly Hispanics). All the jurors were white. I’m speculating, but I think no other people bothered showing up.

    The Ukraine and Russia would both have both been substantially better off if they had been located right next to the US and had it as a trading partner, as well as had the same amount of remittances.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  332. @AP

    Well, getting your heart ripped out has meaning. It means that you got captured, it means that you offended the spirits, it shall inspire your kinsmen to avenge you(maybe), and your death will be witnessed by dozens if not hundreds. Our ego always places us in the center of the world, and in the lower population and more interconnected world this represents, the victim really is a center of his known world for a moment. This is a large part of Ted Kaczynski’s argument for the sense of significant goals in the pre-modern world.

    Contrast that to dying alone in a derilum, likely unmourned and forgotten, and probably inspired due to a life where everything he thought should be natural became impossible: love, family, status, being valued. When surrogate goals vanish in the atomization of today’s world, there is a certain profound tragedy that even death has become atomized and de-illusioned of meaning.

    • Replies: @AaronB
    , @AP
    , @RadicalCenter
  333. AaronB says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    People who try and maximize power and money – like Jews, and I am sorry to say, modern Chinese (temporarily, I hope) are generally affected by the afterglow of a dying religious faith. They dimly remember transcendental values, but transpose them into the physical realm.

    A more advanced stage of materialism, like modern Europeans, is world weariness and apathy. German reader has an advanced case, but even be retains some memory of higher values, you are right, because he is not totally on board with the modern project. He values things that he does not understand is at complete odds with his conscious philosophy. A torn man.

  334. AaronB says:
    @AP

    Ok, so the worst form of twisted religion – a perversion birthed by the strains of religions collision with nihilistic modernity – may be as bad – in some way as worse in some ways better – than secular modernity. However, it contains the seeds of recovery within its self, because it has not lost itself in the fundamental falsehood of materialism.

    None of this changes the fact that religion is indispensable, and secular modernity the only hopeless dead end street.

    • Replies: @AP
  335. AaronB says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    Actually a good point.

    When you read about the Aztecs, it is clear that both victim and Aztec society were engaged in a web of meaning and significance. Even the victim felt his death had significance – he was not merely and only a failure.

    The broken down modern man dying alone in a delirium – merely and only a failure, a sacrifice to consumerism – it is the ultimate in a pathetic death.

    • Replies: @AP
  336. @AaronB

    As for “seeing the world as it is” – he ha ha.

    I didn’t mean to refer to the deeper layers of reality with that (I don’t presume to understand those), but to situations like the likely future of the UK…your reaction to Randal’s well-founded concern (“Just believe in God, everything will turn out fine!”) was just silly, the equivalent of telling someone with cancer “Think positive, and it will be all right!”. That’s just a refusal to grapple with hard, depressing realities and come up with some platitudinous nonsense about self-improvement, positive thinking etc. (which strikes me as a very American reaction btw).
    And stop your idiotic lecturing me about my alleged “materialism”, as if I were some superficial consumer cretin only interested in getting more stuff and nice vacations. You know almost nothing about me and my personal beliefs, your presumptuous claim that you have figured me out (and plenty of other commenters like Randal or for-the-record as well) is completely unjustified.

    • Replies: @AaronB
  337. songbird says:
    @Ali Choudhury

    Talha does not seem to think he is running away. He was born in the West – like many – and he advocates Sharia. He uses familiar terms to describe all his co-religionists (like brother and sister) no matter where they are located. He’s embracing his heritage and spreading it.

  338. AP says:
    @AaronB

    Okay, so in your world it’s better to get caught by the Aztecs and have your heart ripped open than to choose to OD on heroin.

    • Replies: @AaronB
  339. AP says:
    @AaronB

    Ok, so the worst form of twisted religion – a perversion birthed by the strains of religions collision with nihilistic modernity – may be as bad – in some way as worse in some ways better – than secular modernity.

    So in your world a society that involved kidnapping and using as sex slaves 12 year old girls is on balance about as bad (maybe!) as one that makes boys play with dolls and where people shop a lot. You have achieved this high level of wisdom and morality because you are a spiritual person, not a materialist.

  340. AP says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    Well, getting your heart ripped out has meaning. It means that you got captured, it means that you offended the spirits, it shall inspire your kinsmen to avenge you(maybe), and your death will be witnessed by dozens if not hundreds

    Correct. I’m not sure if this makes it good. Many of the Aztecs’ victims weren’t locals and actually welcomed and helped the Spaniards who ended the Aztec civilization.

    the victim really is a center of his known world for a moment.

    As is someone bound and gagged and tortured to death in his own chamber by a serial killer.

    Contrast that to dying alone in a derilum, likely unmourned and forgotten, and probably inspired due to a life where everything he thought should be natural became impossible: love, family, status, being valued.

    I agree that this is sad and pathetic. But saying it’s somehow worse or equal to Aztec mass religious sacrifice because it doesn’t have the epic quality of being tortured and sacrificed in public seems to be bizarre.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  341. AaronB says:
    @German_reader

    But you are willfully misunderstanding me as Randal did.

    I never said just have faith and everything will turn out fine. I said never give up trying to fix the situation. Randal was already talking about how it’s hopeless when immigrants are under 10% of the UK. Randal should be determined and full of resolve – utterly motivated and willing to continue striving and sacrificing – when half the UK are immigrants. Imagine if the 300 Spartans thought like Randal! But I am sure there was a Randal back then telling the Spartans it’s hopeless and childish to think they can do anything, and how their faith that they would succeed is the worst kind of complacency.

    Why do both of you insist on misunderstanding me?

    American self-help nonsense is the faint echo of religious faith – it’s insipid and superficial because torn of its religious context. It says you can do anything through self-will – religion says that you should never give up on your effort to realize higher values, that they are worth sacrifice, and living by them will be a source of self respect and motivation, without which you can accomplish nothing.

    But even American stupidity is better than European apathy.

    But you’ve expressed your personal beliefs here – and you are a materialist. Maybe not a consumerist cretin, but a materialist nontheless.

    • Replies: @German_reader
  342. @AaronB

    I said never give up trying to fix the situation

    Well, I try to do what I can (by voting for the nationalist party, donating to it, signing a petition against open borders policy etc.). I probably should be doing more though…instead of writing comments on Unz review.

    But you’ve dressed your personal beliefs here – and you are a materialist

    I reject that characterization.

    • Replies: @Anon
    , @AaronB
  343. @AP

    I, for one, would choose being ritually sacrificed in front of a crowd over dying alone of a drug overdose.

    I like public speaking and taught a high school class before.

    • Replies: @for-the-record
  344. Anon[198] • Disclaimer says:
    @German_reader

    What’s interesting is that the instrumental view of spirituality adopted by many through history, including some Hindus and many Chinese, and strongly present in Aztec customs, is itself not all that far from a kind of materialism.

    What distinguishes the materialism of the modern West is the (probably vaguely Protestant in origin) rejection of ritual as a key element in human life.

  345. AaronB says:
    @German_reader

    I

    reject that characterization.

    I am glad to hear it.

    I probably should be doing more though…instead of writing comments on Unz review.

    One thing you might do is help spread non-materialism – and thus the sources of motivation and self-respect – among your fellow Germans :)

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  346. @AaronB

    Trying to provoke people is usually called trolling, you know.

    • Replies: @AaronB
  347. AaronB says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    Oh, come – we all need to be provoked from time to time :) We need to be prodded out of our lethargy.

    I like German reader, that’s why I argue with him.

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
  348. @AaronB

    There’s no need to rationalize this.

    Trolling is the purpose of the internet and a great and beautiful thing.

    A troll was even elected President of the United States.

    • LOL: AaronB
  349. songbird says:
    @AaronB

    I think you would have liked Thai human sacrifice a lot:

    Historical evidence reportedly shows, that the founding of a new town required voluntary or ‘involuntary’ sacrifice of one or more victims. The favoured victims were pregnant women, who were impaled under the posts which supported the fortifications. It was believed the spirits of pregnant women who died, would make ferociously supernatural agents and protect the inhabitants of the town from all manner of other bad entities and spirits.

    As voluntary victims were usually not easy to come by! government officials accompanied by guards would knock on houses and walk the streets, calling out four names : Juu, Jang, Man and Khong (all common Thai names), if a person, thinking that they was being summoned, opened their door or turned their head in their direction, then that person was regarded as ‘designed by fate’, and were seized and taken away. After a short retreat and a sumptuous banquet, the victim or victims so obtained were solemnly taken to the gate and buried alive under a foundation beam

    A lot of people passed through those gates, until they needed to make new ones and chose new victims. By the 1870s, (in such time as “The King and I”, they supposedly mostly seized bums. But, in any, case it was usually the lower economic strata. Sometimes, the victims became the house spirits of royalty, so you may say that their spirits lived on in mansions, of important government officials, no less.

    • Replies: @DFH
    , @AaronB
  350. DFH says:
    @songbird

    Eliade (who the obscurantist would love to read if he hasn’t already) cites lots of similar instances of sacrificing something when a building is founded

  351. AaronB says:
    @songbird

    Why would I “like” this?

    • Replies: @AP
    , @songbird
  352. AP says:
    @AaronB

    It’s spiritual and represents a sacrifice for the greater good, it’s community more than individuality, etc.

  353. songbird says:
    @AaronB

    Of course, I am trolling a bit, but I think AP summed it up well. Plus, it seems perhaps a bit more functional and restrained than what the Meso-Americans typically did.

    I believe a lot of human sacrifice had a kind of similar arc, where it became a lot rarer and they focused mostly on low level criminals. By the time of the Second Punic War human sacrifice was believed to be quite uncommon in Rome. IIRC, when the city was surrounded, or else under threat, they still threw a few people off the Tarpeian rock.

    I think one can even make a reasonable argument that human sacrifice persisted in a very low level form in European civilization until relatively recently. Witch burnings. Public executions. They were a type of social glue that helped hold the state and the public together.

    I’d even go a bit further and say that even the spirit of it persists today. For instance, how many of the people who believe in global warming have really taken a hard look at the data? In how many is it really just a belief about Mother Earth that demands sacrifice? And how many of those are spiritual people but not religious?

    There are some odd phrases one hears today that to my imagination are so bizarre that one can almost think that they are the result of some genetic vestige of a propensity to human sacrifice – perhaps itself an evolutionary strategy. Right side of history. Moral arc of the universe. Psychic unity of mankind. Sort of a tangent, but if you ever saw the Cameron movie Avatar the environmental themes, the humans being killed, and in one scene all the blue people swaying together in unison kind of evokes the same feeling.

    • Replies: @AaronB
  354. @Daniel Chieh

    I like public speaking

    So were ritual sacrificees given the opportunity to publicly express their final words?

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  355. Dmitry says:
    @Thorfinnsson

    Once again…what sort of Mexican do you think takes a summer language course in London? Someone from the upper class. Quite noteworthy that she was from Mexico City as well, which is the capital of Mexico and has a heavy concentration of elites. Most wealthy people in Mexico in fact live in Mexico City (or Monterrey).

    And yes, there are some beautiful mestizas. But on the whole they are uglier (and absolutely shorter–and it’s not good to be short), and even if that were not true I value the preservation of the recessive Northern European phenotype.

    Sure there must be a wide variety of people there. And I don’t doubt plenty of millions of less civilized cattle.

    My point was just that the statement was not completely true, as I know for a fact for real life.

    You know a lot of the time on the internet, we have these weird situations. For example, ugly people (I’m not saying you – but in general), calling ‘ugly’ nationalities of people which must also encompass thousands of 10/10 beautiful women, which would be above their own dating level in real life.

    It suddenly seems very weird when you contrast people ‘talking shit’ on internet (how they themselves usually look), with real life.

    -

    As for inside America itself. I have travelled in America – the last time was only last summer. My older brother is working for the year in California. We drove all over California.

    I remember a lot of Latin people working as waiters. My impression was very modest people who you do not even notice.

    The fatness aspect seems to be a percentage of all the races there (although there’s plenty of people who are healthy looking there as well).

  356. AaronB says:
    @songbird

    Well, while I obviously don’t support human sacrifice, self-sacrifice is obviously a spiritual ideal.

    Spirituality involves losing the self in something larger – modernity, of course, is atomization.

    • Replies: @songbird
  357. Dmitry says:
    @reiner Tor

    Personal experience has not been bad, for example I also know a very pretty (somewhat brown-skinned, but mostly European looking with some mystery meat sauce) and also apparently smart Mexican girl (well, a distant acquaintance), but obviously the kinds of diverse people we will meet will be a very small self-selected sample, so just anecdotes.

    The plural of anecdotes is data, and data doesn’t show them to be so good.

    I’m sure that differences, partly inherited, in intelligence and personality distributions do exist between population groups.

    At the same time, the data is not currently very reliable in this area, and can sometimes fall apart when I look into it.

    I think we already discussed this PISA tests which don’t measure anything, except your tolerance for weird question.

    So it’s not a case where you can so easily ‘defer to data’, above personal experience – in the way that you would of course say we should do, if we are given real scientific data, including mechanism of action, of how smoking causing cancer. And then clearly deferring to this data, above anecdotes like “my grandfather smokes every day but has lived to 107″.

    This is ‘sociology’ quality data, so we need to keep it in a bit of parenthesis.

    As for an overall issue about immigration, of the course the Americans should have closed it down since years ago. Especially in relation to conservation of cultural identity and political consensus. But in some way this is too obvious to need to debate.

  358. Dmitry says:
    @RadicalCenter

    Well I emphasize with your situation being close to too many trolls. My point was not to say ‘all are great’. Just also that I had a good impression.

  359. Dmitry says:
    @Johann Ricke

    Internal to?

    Oops this was supposed to be ‘international’.

    As a result of all these courses, I can write perfect English when I concentrate – but I’m not always concentrating enough to write down the right words.

  360. @AP

    Most of these Mexicans in the USA do NOT meaningfully follow a European religion, if you mean Christianity. And a large, growing number of them don’t follow Christianity even nominally.

    Anyway, how comforting is it that the guy who just had a third child out of wedlock — whom we can pay for through at least age 18, plus either college or prison thereafter — was wearing a cross when he banged the woman (or women) he wasn’t married to or even planning to marry. Not comforting, is the answer.

    There are also many Mexicans, in gangs and otherwise, who wear crucifixes or have “Christian” tattoos while dealing drugs, stealing, and committing violence and intimidation. Yes, I do have experience with Mexican and other gang crime.

    As for speaking a European language, there are actually a large number of Indio Mexicans in the USA who are not literate in Spanish and don’t even regularly speak Spanish, and some who CAN’T speak Spanish. The parents of my friend here in LA come from far southern Mexico and speak Zapotec, not Spanish, at home, and are not fluent in Spanish.

    Finally, millions of Mexican-”Americans” are semi-literate and barely articulate even in Spanish, let alone English. I’m with them every day.

    • Replies: @AP
  361. @AaronB

    If you continue to call Mexicans generally “placid,” you’re not talking about the reality of the mass of Mexicans that I encounter here and far from LA as well.

    • Replies: @Corvinus
  362. @German_reader

    Depression and suicide are rational responses, yeah you’re German alright. Your people and country are done for good, and they deserve it.

    • Replies: @German_reader
    , @songbird
  363. AP says:
    @RadicalCenter

    Most of these Mexicans in the USA do NOT meaningfully follow a European religion, if you mean Christianity. And a large, growing number of them don’t follow Christianity even nominally.

    They go to church more often than white people do:

    http://www.pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/compare/attendance-at-religious-services/by/racial-and-ethnic-composition/

    Anyway, how comforting is it that the guy who just had a third child out of wedlock

    Is there a big difference between Mexicans and white people of their same social class (poor) with respect to this sort of behavior?

    As for speaking a European language, there are actually a large number of Indio Mexicans in the USA who are not literate in Spanish and don’t even regularly speak Spanish, and some who CAN’T speak Spanish.

    A good point. Do you have figures for % of these?

    Finally, millions of Mexican-”Americans” are semi-literate and barely articulate even in Spanish,

    Were Irish, Polish, or Italian peasants who came over 120 years ago different?

    • Replies: @songbird
    , @LatW
  364. @AP

    We’d be lucky, actually, if they’d stick to GIRLS, and if they’d impose a minimum age of 12. They often don’t do either.

    • Agree: AP
  365. Dmitry says:
    @songbird

    I don’t disagree with the view that the immigrants are not necessarily the ‘best people’. Probably few things worse for a country than being flooded by low class cattle of other nationalities.

    There should support building a wall against it, and deportation of communities of troublemakers.

    I disagree with the idea of judging all nationalities by their most annoying kids though. Every nationality produces this kind of behaviour in the bottom part of society.

    You don’t need black demographics to have these people. Just look at drunk and criminal population in less great suburbs like Uralmash. If authorities were more evil, they’d start some project (e.g. issuing them all with fake PhDs in astrophysics) to get them to successfully immigrate to America.

    Trump already said Mexico is trying to send its criminals to America.

  366. @RadicalCenter

    That’s a bit harsh, if more Germans were like me, there wouldn’t be a problem.

    • Agree: Randal
    • LOL: Ali Choudhury
  367. @Daniel Chieh

    Interesting that you assume that people in our society typically die alone and are forgotten and unmourned. Not true of anyone in my family or anyone whom we know. Straw man.

    Getting tortured, terrified, and murdered by the Aztecs didn’t make the victim important or meaningful and such nonsense should provide zero comfort to the victims, their families, or their descendants.

    • Replies: @AP
  368. songbird says:
    @AP

    Maybe, it is because I am not too old, but I have never heard people cast aspersions on Irish and Poles. I’m aware of some of the history. For instance, the draft riots: I know I would not have wanted to have been drafted into the Northern War of Aggression, esp. considering all the incidentals. The way rich people could buy out. Imagine scrimping to go to the Land of Opportunity and then being sent into a hamburger factory – and ostensibly for blacks. If there had been bigger riots, maybe the US wouldn’t be on the path to self-destruction.

    I have heard some of the older folk speak about when Italians (primarily Southern, I believe) moved into the old neighborhood. They said that gangs of youths made the streets dangerous. One old guy I know, thinks his oldman (long dead) was seriously messed up, so that he had lifelong limp afterward, though he never spoke of being attacked.

    Most of the Italians I know are nice people, but I never really lived in a densely populated neighborhood. I know a lot of people (contra Ron Unz) who have been attacked by informal gangs of Hispanic youths, and in the suburbs. Are they like these Italians of old? I doubt it.

    No one ever talked about the Irish gap or the Polish gap or the Italian gap (except between North and South Italy) that I am aware of. They have talked about the Hispanic and black gaps ad nauseam though.

    The early Lynn results for Ireland were an outlier. I am close to 100% positive nothing like that existed among Irish Americans, so why does it among Hispanic-Americans, a sizable number (but small in overall proportion) who have been in the country since New Mexico was annexed?

    I think you have got to go with the most parsimonious answer. The reason why there is no Irish gap is because they are NW Euros with a low genetic distance to other NW Euros. Past bigotry against closely related peoples doesn’t invalidate all prejudice against much more distantly related ones. I think there is a reason why Latin America is Latin America. It is not one country, but a bunch, just like how you have other regions of the world that seem to clump together. Simplest answer: it is the DNA.

    • Replies: @AP
  369. songbird says:
    @RadicalCenter

    If we are to all be judged by the quality of our political leaders or by the worst of our countrymen, then we are all damned to hell.

    I’ve known many Germans. Some were good folks, not at all crazy. Some were pretty batshit insane, but I wouldn’t even wish it on the crazies, though they seem to desire it. That is perhaps in their nature, and it may be a deficiency that they have no volition over. It is kind of heartbreaking because even some of the nuts also have good qualities, beyond their very bad ones. I can’t help but think they would have been different in a different society. Perhaps, not so crazy, if, for instance, they went to church weekly, or if censorship over Hollywood hadn’t been lost.

  370. Seraphim says:
    @Ali Choudhury

    Israel recognizes Sharia law in view of the centuries old Jewish-Muslim alliance against their common enemy Christendom.

    • Replies: @Ali Choudhury
  371. Yevardian says:
    @Thorfinnsson

    If you think the average Mexican benefited from NAFTA then you’re economically illiterate.

    • Agree: utu
    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
  372. AP says:
    @RadicalCenter

    He wasn’t comparing Aztec victims to regular people in the society, but to those specific ones who die of overdoses.

    Of course, it strikes me as absurd that it’s better to have one’s beating heart ripped out than to die of an overdose somewhere.

  373. AP says:
    @songbird

    No one ever talked about the Irish gap or the Polish gap or the Italian gap

    People didn’t think in terms of IQ or even educational achievement back then. But they noticed if a group seemed to be very dimwitted- hence all the Polish jokes.

    I know a lot of people (contra Ron Unz) who have been attacked by informal gangs of Hispanic youths, and in the suburbs.

    The data show that despite such anecdotes Mexicans are not much more dangerous than similarly poor, young whites. Puerto Ricans, on the other hand, are more dangerous.

    El Paso, 80% Mexican, is the safest large city in America.

    I lived in Chicago. The collective wisdom of people not afraid to speak their mind (usually – Poles, Russians or Ukrainians) is that one doesn’t go into black areas at all, one doesn’t go to Puerto Rican areas at night and is cautious during the day, but Mexican areas are okay. Or at least similar to working class white areas, rather than the ones populated by rich white people (which are safest of all and about as safe as Europe or Canada).

    • Replies: @songbird
  374. LatW says:
    @AP

    Literacy? Tom Brady is half Irish, part Polish. Martha Stewart is fully Polish. That’s all I need to know.

    • Replies: @AP
  375. songbird says:
    @AaronB

    GK Chesterton wrote an essay a long time ago against the idea of an electrical house.

    I certainly do not agree with him now, nor would I think I would have at the time, in the extreme of his rhetoric. I would say that social values were still quite strong long after all the things he railed against (for instance: the radio) were introduced. Parts of my family were far from where they were born, but none without a sense of community or family. Still, if you can find it sometime, it might be an interesting read for you. Perhaps, he was prescient.

    In a way, I think a lot of the bad stuff we are seeing today is the result of technology. SJWs are primarily the result of technology and the easy living it has created, IMO. Though I am not promoting Ludditism, but rather more self-awareness and caution.

  376. @for-the-record

    Some sort of noise prior to expiration, at the least, I’m sure :P

  377. AP says:
    @LatW

    We are comparing to back then, not now.

    • Replies: @LatW
  378. @Anon 2

    For what it is worth surveys tend to show that Americans’ ideal amount of children tend to be quite high.

    As a result, the gap between the number of children that women say they want to have (2.7) and the number of children they will probably actually have (1.8) has risen to the highest level in 40 years. (From 1972 to 2016, men have expressed almost exactly the same ideal fertility rates as women: In a given year, they average just 0.04 children below what women say is ideal.)

    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/13/upshot/american-fertility-is-falling-short-of-what-women-want.html88

  379. @Yevardian

    The average Mexican in 1994 was probably a peasant and thus got wrecked by American imports.

    But Mexico’s per capita GDP and especially its manufacturing sector are much greater than they would be if it were located somewhere else in the world, or there was no NAFTA treaty.

    It’s an extremely offensive situation as there shouldn’t be any factories in Mexico, and the idea that they should be permitted to negotiate with us is absurd. The appropriate, natural status of Mexico is a protectorate whose foreign and economic policies are set by the United States.

  380. @German_reader

    Definitely, but I am of the thought that at the end of the day, believing in something is pretty important, whatever it is. To some extent I feel like there are strong models to parallel the notion that comfort and even safety may be maladaptive in some contexts.

    The first model would be the human body, of course, where lack of exercise gradually leads to all manners of adverse effects(and is in its extreme form of microgravity leads to severe, probably fatal consequences). Exercise is fundamentally stress upon the body, but the body uses incoming stress in order to calibrate how to use its results. If writ small upon a human body that it can have such disruptive, and destructive effects, then could it be that writ large upon a society that it could have similar, or even more extensive effects? Well, I’m fond of Kaczynski, so you know my answer there, but I think if nothing else, its a worthwhile consideration. And you might know this better than me, but didn’t Max Weber have a similar consideration with his concepts of disenchantment and exit from the enchanted garden? Well, whether its an enchanted garden or the demon-haunted garden of Sagan’s views from which the torch of reason frees us from depends on one’s terminal values, I suppose.

    The second model which builds off the former is that I admire beauty, to which for me I struggled with for a long time as my predominant form of belief is atheism, and I feel that it rationally mocks most notions of transcendence. If we’re all living meat, then the transition to dead meat means very little, either great or small. Death is much more energy efficient and at peace with the ultimate destination of maximum entropy, or so it is believed. But that hardly seemed beautiful and it didn’t sit well to me, so at one point I began to obsess over the notion of order arising from disorder, coming to a conclusion of sorts that order had beauty. Of course, this led to me to fractals and chaos theory.

    For me, it was a prime example of order rising from chaos, of designs emerging from the typically irregular forms of bacterial colony, and given its ubiquity in nature in both organic and inorganic items, as well as its mathematical underpinning, it suggested to me, anyway, that there might be truth that wasn’t purely uniform chaos and entropy.

    But what was I additionally took from it was that those beautiful fractal designs emerged organically in result from stresses and conflict, so when given resources without conflict, you pretty much get something akin to what you’ll see from leaving bread out too long. Its only under stress does beauty emerge, and we could use that possibly as a stand-in for other things that you might wish in a society: self-identification, resilience, resistance and so on.

    I mean, rationally, we should measure everything by metrics. And that’s always been one of the best arguments for modernity and societal development: infant mortality, life expectancy, death by violence, caloric intake, or heck, the ability to regularly consume steak rather than having meat once a week. All good things. But well, there are metrics now for IQ, childbirth, depression(and drug use, inc. legal) and even suicide rates that suggest that this isn’t the best of all possible places. And though its only ancedotally, there is also the ever increasing number of absurdities that we have to claim faith in on a day to day basis. Like all things in life, it most likely is the result of processes triggered earlier rather than a single, present day series of events. The results of cancer are secondary illnesses, but the secondary illnesses are only a symptom(fatal as they might be) rather than the cause.

    This post has go on longer than I had planned! I’ll end with this thought, and though I don’t know if I agree with it completely, I do feel that it speaks to a lot of my deeply felt beliefs:

    “The modern world will not be punished. It is our punishment.”

    • Agree: reiner Tor, AaronB
  381. songbird says:
    @AP

    But they noticed if a group seemed to be very dimwitted- hence all the Polish jokes.

    I haven’t heard too many, but the ones that I heard were only about Poland, never about Poles abroad. This leads me to believe they have a different source than a perception about Poles being stupid.

    By my theory: Poland was really the major satellite country in the Eastern Bloc. Harder to mock the USSR because it was so big and powerful. Can’t mock East Germany because it is not a real country, besides which there were lots of German Americans. Czechoslovakia is just plain hard to say. Poland is the perfect length, only two syllables. Not many Polish Americans to offend + Poland being communist = Polish jokes.

    That idea is really typified by the joke about Poland building a submarine with a screen door. It is kind of mocking their military capacity. It is like a joke to alleviate the fears of the Cold War.

    • Replies: @Anon
    , @AP
  382. Anon[198] • Disclaimer says:
    @songbird

    Are you American? “Polack jokes” are well known over here. I’ve never heard of Poles actually being considered stupid outside them though. The “dumb Swede” is also a stereotype, oddly enough.

    • Replies: @songbird
  383. songbird says:
    @Anon

    Yeah, I don’t know if I’m from the wrong generation or the wrong area. I’ve only ever heard two and both were pretty country specific. And I heard them only once.

    Q: why do pigeons fly over Poland upside down?
    A: Because the country isn’t worth a sh-t!

    I don’t even remember the gist of the submarine one.

  384. @Randal

    There is a damn good reason to be opposed to Islam on a reactionary intellectual level because Islam creates paramilitarized societies and generates social friction wherever it is present because of it’s inherent ingroup/outgroup aggression that is natural of clan based semitic tribal religions. The Jews of antiquity were likewise equally violent and obnoxious towards their pagan neighbors and it was only having their repeated aggression put down in extremely effective fashion by Babylonian, Greek, and finally Roman overlords that they finally gave up the ghost.

    Furthermore Sunni Islam in particular is much more destructive than it’s Shia counterpart and is incompatible with non-muslim societies because of the nature of their liturgy. The fundamental point of divergence between the two may seem relatively minor and irrelevant but it has massive ramifications. Shia hold that only a lineal descendant of Mohammed via Ali is fit to rule over Muslims. The Sunni hold that “righteousness” is the only requirement. What this really means is that the Shia are in effect legitimists and beholden to natural order and hierarchy. The Supreme Ayatollah is the law of the land in Iran and you cannot exceed him theologically, and he more critically serves as a firebreak to radicalism because trying to out holy him gets you beheaded. It is also the reason why King, Church, and Pope were so necessary for the proper functioning of Europe until that devil Luther came along. It should be no surprise that the rise of Protestantism in Germany was accompanied by massive amounts of Anabaptist insanity as protestants tried to out holy each other in a massive signaling spiral that resulted in some truly crazed nonsense. I think even Luther realized it too when he had people who tried to out Holy him burned at the stake for heresy, and the eventual domination of State Churches put the kibosh on the most excessive elements Protestantism unleashed. Then again the modern perversion of the entire “Liberal” weltanschauung can be argued to trace back to it’s Protestant roots. Homosexual marriage and rapefugee invasion is simply more of the same holiness signaling that Protestantism originally unleashed.

    The Sunni Muslims are the funhouse mirror dopplegangers of the Pozz that affects the West. Because they demand rule by righteousness, “righteousness” is what they get in that the overton window naturally keeps on shifting towards the more religiously obstinate and sectarian and there is no firebreak to this phenomenon. This slippery slope can only be arrested by a powerful military strongman but it can never be truly reversed without either demographically reducing them to a small enough minority where they cant cause trouble or convert them to Shiism which makes them tolerable. Otherwise they will inevitably destroy the non-Sunni Muslim component of any society they happen to be amidst via low level sub-state aggression and violence as has tended to happen elsewhere, unless they met a force equally as clannish but with greater capacity for organized violence as has happened in Israel.

  385. Corvinus says:
    @RadicalCenter

    “If you continue to call Mexicans generally “placid,” you’re not talking about the reality of the mass of Mexicans that I encounter here and far from LA as well.”

    Every now and then, Aaron B gets it right. His characterization of Mexicans is spot on. Perhaps the confirmation bias, and not LA’s sun, is getting to you.

    • Replies: @Duke of Qin
  386. LatW says:
    @AP

    The point is that literacy can be acquired (changed), but genetics can’t. But to each his own.

    Back in the day it was the Apache that kept these poor little South American Indians from roaming into the north.

  387. @Corvinus

    I think it’s a matter of selection bias. The majority of bourgeois White American contact with Mexicans is through the quiet working help, which leads to an exaggerated sense of Mexican inoffensiveness and placid natures. In effect the peasant with sombrero in hand; the banditos have stolen our grain; signor wont you help us archetype come to life which cultivates a terminal case of nobless oblige among certain people. The arrest statistics in California speak for themselves. Mexicans are more violent and prone to criminality than even prole whites. They may not be a threat to you because of geographic, social, and biological distance, but your working class co-ethnics dont enjoy the same advantages you do.

    • Replies: @AP
    , @Corvinus
    , @RadicalCenter
  388. AP says:
    @songbird

    I haven’t heard too many, but the ones that I heard were only about Poland, never about Poles abroad. This leads me to believe they have a different source than a perception about Poles being stupid.

    Polish jokes are extremely common in America. Boys in elementary school have spent hours sharing them.

    Typical examples:

    Q: How do you get a one-armed Polak out of a tree?
    A: Wave to him.

    Q: How many Polaks does it take to change a light bulb?
    A1: 3. One to stand on a chair and hold the bulb and the other two to spin the chair.
    A2: 100001. One to hold the bulb and the other 100000 to spin the house.

    Did you hear about the Polish family that froze to death outside a theater? They were waiting to see the movie “Closed for the Winter.”

    ::::::::::::

    One rarely hears things such as “that’s Polish of me” when making a silly or careless mistake. But Poles are not perceived as being dumb today. The jokes reflect an earlier time.

    • Replies: @songbird
  389. dfordoom says: • Website
    @Randal

    More vitally, a real British nationalism would (as Enoch Powell did) recognise the importance of the most immediate and damaging, and generally unrecognised (precisely because it is so all-pervasive), foreign influence – US political and economic power and American cultural pollution.

    I agree entirely. The depressing thing is that these “British” “Nationalists” are all in favour of wallowing in American cultural filth.

    And of course most “nationalist” politicians are quite happy to kowtow to the corrosive doctrines of political correctness on every issue other than their own personal hobgoblin.

    A nationalism that embraces feminism and LGBT madness deserves to die.

    At this point in time I think Britain might be better off under sharia law. Given a choice between Islamification and feminism/homo worship I’ll choose Islamification.

  390. AP says:
    @Duke of Qin

    The arrest statistics in California speak for themselves.

    They just reflects the fact that there are few young whites and many young Mexicans in CA. Most crimes are committed by young males. So Mexicans will be over-represented among criminals in California, even as homicide rates have declined as they flooded in.

    El Paso, Texas (80% Mexican) has the lowest homicide rate of any large city in America (over 500,000 people), other than Honolulu which is full of Asians:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_cities_by_crime_rate

    Property crime OTOH is another matter – lots of auto thefts.

    So they are, in general, more likely to steal things but less likely to be violent.

    Mexicans are more violent and prone to criminality than even prole whites

    The US state of West Virginia has a higher homicide rate (4.4) than El Paso (2.5) which is 80% Mexican or Chula Vista CA (2.3) which is 60% Mexican or Laredo TX (3.1) which is 95% Mexican or Santa Ana CA (3.6) which is 78% Mexican.

    All of these Mexican places in America also have lower homicide rates than several Eastern European countries.

  391. songbird says:
    @AP

    Those are funny. I can see why they were popular.

    • Replies: @AP
  392. dfordoom says: • Website
    @utu

    Nationalist rallies won’t succeed under the wimpy slogan of freedom of speech. Nationalist rallies must be about kicking ass and not about begging for some rights. This was not a nationalist rally.

    Agreed.

    Freedom of speech is for losers who have no power and no prospects of getting power.

    The only time freedom of speech ever worked was for the cultural left in the mid-20th century when they were in the process of gaining power. But they succeeded in gaining power solely because they faced no actual opposition. Power was handed over to them.

  393. AP says:
    @songbird

    I just remembered another one.

    Did you hear about the Polish couple who read that 1 out of 5 children born in the world today is Chinese?

    They stopped at four children.

    • Replies: @songbird
  394. I got a more elaborate Polish joke, which I learned from a truly amazing member of the proletariat.

    They wanted to make the perfect sport fish, and decided to do so by hybridizing a fish from several different types of fish.

    First they picked a coho salmon, to give it a nice skin color, flavor, and red flesh.

    Then they picked a walleye pike, to make it juicy and tender.

    Finally they incorporated a muskie, to make it a great figher for the sport fisherman.

    The new fish was christened the CoWalSkie (note: sounds like Kowalski).

    Only trouble was it couldn’t swim.

  395. dfordoom says: • Website
    @DFH

    The Stuarts were a rather pointless and incompetent dynasty anyway

    It was all downhill from the time of Henry Tudor’s usurpation. The Tudors really were catastrophically awful.

    We need to find a viable Plantaganet pretender.

    • Replies: @Duke of Qin
    , @DFH
  396. @dfordoom

    Screw that. Vortigern rightful King of the Britons!

  397. DFH says:
    @dfordoom

    The Tudors really were catastrophically awful.

    No they weren’t.

    • Replies: @Seraphim
  398. Seraphim says:
    @DFH

    They were just awful. Suffice to see a portrait of ‘Gloriana’.
    ‘Arthur shall come again’! But yes, the Plantagenets were the last legitimate dynasty.

    • Replies: @DFH
  399. dfordoom says: • Website
    @Randal

    The Franco option certainly looks more and more tempting as the alternative becomes ever clearer. Sadly at the same time it becomes ever less plausible…..

    And Spain today is as cucked as the rest of Europe. Franco gave it his best shot but the forces of darkness won in the end.

    Definitely not plausible. In modern Britain the army is going to be on the side of multiculturalism and open borders and trannies and homo marriage.

  400. dfordoom says: • Website
    @AaronB

    But none of it matters. Whoever your enemies are and however strong, you don’t counsel despair if you have a cause worth fighting for.

    And what exactly is this cause for which we should fight? We no longer seem to have an actual civilisation worth preserving. Are we supposed to risk our lives fighting for classical liberalism? For tax cuts? For the right of men to wear dresses and use the ladies’ room?

    • Replies: @AaronB
  401. DFH says:
    @Seraphim

    They were just awful. Suffice to see a portrait of ‘Gloriana’.

    ?

    the Plantagenets were the last legitimate dynasty.

    They wasted a huge amount of English money and lives in French wars, most of which were pointless. The early ones had very little interest in England at all.

    • Replies: @Seraphim
  402. Seraphim says:
    @DFH

    They were French after all! Huh, ‘continentals’.

    • Replies: @DFH
    , @Anon
  403. utu says:
    @German_reader

    I don’t think though the rise of Islamist movements can merely be explained by sinister Western machinations and conspiracies.

    Cold War started it and Israel continued it. W/o Cold War and w/o Israel we would even not noticed that they were there. You would be no more preoccupied with them than you are with Indonesians and Malaysians. To destabilize countries and start internal ethnic and sectarian strife is easy. When they start killing each other you can blame it on them, their morality and their religion and their low IQ but then you forget about the true evil that began all that.

    It is beyond discussion: no sane person should accept Muslim immigration to Europe. If Islamophobia is what it takes I am willing to accept it as a necessary evil, however I am afraid that Islamophobes and people like you will end up first going to get involved in some operations benefiting Israel rather than taking care of the problem of immigration to Europe. Islamophobia is blinding us so people do not see what is really happening.

    • Agree: dfordoom
    • Replies: @German_reader
  404. @Randal

    Mass immigration is clearly a priority issue for right-thinking nationalists (ie not leftist Catalan/ScotNat style “nationalists”) anywhere.

    The so-called nationalists in Wales and Scotland are motivated more by political correctness than by national identity. Feminism – actually extreme Feminazism – dominates parties like Plaid Cymru and God forbid that the party specifically established to promote the Welsh language should actually do anything more than virtue signal. A few yaeras back, a large company advertised for Polish-speaking workers in Carmarthen, once the parliamentary seat of the late Plaid leader Gwynfor Evans. And what did Plaid do? Why, they welcomed diversity of course, despite several laws being simultaneously broken by the transnational capiatlists.

    As for British nationalism in general, it’s clear that yet again Anatoly is writing about something he has no clue about. London is no longer a British city in any meaningful sense. In June 2016 it rejected Brexit and when the rest of England and Wales failed to follow its lead, there were calls for it to seced and declare independence!

    If you want to find British nationalism you need to go to working class localities well away from Sadiqistan. You need to go to the former industrial areas – to places like south Wales, Stafford, Durham and Sunderland, the Labour-voting areas that caused the British equivalents of Karlin so much anguish on the blissful June night and morning nearly two years ago.

  405. Yevardian says:
    @Duke of Qin

    Good summary, my thoughts exactly. It’s worth pointing out that when Shi’ite sects go off the reservation so to speak, they’re usually of an introverted and mystical persuasion. Let’s see if our resident token friendly Muslim replies.

  406. utu says:
    @Randal

    You made many good points I agree with. Sorry that I misrepresented you by associating with Islamophobes. I actually did not believe it when I wrote it. I was just to careless and sloppy.

    I agree on Iran and Shiites and their positive role in the ME but it would change if they started funding mosques in Europe and promote Islam in Europe as Sunni SA does which benefits the “non-jihadists” characters like Talha who nevertheless rejoice Islamization of Europe. He is not our friend. Just like Jews were not our friends when at minimum they rejoiced every setback of Catholic Church in Europe.

    I said that Iran was delegitimized in the eyes of the West by the Islamic Revolution and American embassy occupation so sanctions could be imposed, so we had no guilt by driving Iran to war with Iraq, so Iran became weaker and in the place that Israel really wanted it to be. It was not a dismissive comment in any way.

    Whether Muslim Brotherhood could play a positive role as, say Shiites in Lebanon, I do not know. They allowed themselves to be used by CIA for no good. Then more recently Israel seemed positive about them and Morsi, so I do not think they are who they claim they are. They have been compromised.

    However I will defend my position that all problems were of our own creation though without our permission, because nobody asked us what Israel and the US were planning to do. Without CIA, MI5 and Mossad activities and influence in the ME we would be in much better shape. We would be as much concerned about what is going on in the ME as we are now concerned about Indonesia or Malaysia. I believe we should let them be and help them in constructive ways and yes I favor some degree of secularization like it was in Libya, Iraq and Syria with universities, medical care, welfare and industrialization or even Afghanistan at some brief period were some women were wearing minis. Some degree of secularization is necessary to build modern society that will be self-suffient and offer opportunities for its people but the decisions should be left up to them.

    The reason I object to Islamophobia strongly is because it is also a creation and possible a part of a plan to get us involved in another Zionist war or enterprise. Before our Islamophobia gets us to repatriate one Muslim from Europe it is more likely it will help Israel to send 10 new ones to Europe because we as Islamophobes will be condoning whatever Isarel does there. Besides Islamophobes irritate me because they are like unaware children without historical memory and context. My initial comment was about the lost memory, I think.

    I read much of value in your comments, because you are an intelligent and thoughtful commenter, but I don’t share your ultimate understanding of the world as, in effect, overwhelmingly run by jewish conspiracy even to the extent of their being wholly responsible for such vast human forces as the C20th return to islam in response to the observed failure of secular socialism and nationalism.

    I can’t prove what I believe and you can’t disprove it either. I am trying to formulate a very rational and reasonable hypotheses that are not driven by a priori assumption of existence of “overwhelmingly [...] jewish conspiracy.” However, if some events unfold I always look at them ask a question every Jew asks: “Is it good for us or not”or rather “Has Israel anything to do with it.” I think is is prudent to do so.

    The “failure of secular socialism and nationalism” in the ME would not be of this magnitude if it was not for actions of the US and Israel. So this argument is actually a counter argument to your thesis that I overdo with the ‘conspiracy stuff.’

    • Replies: @Randal
  407. utu says:
    @Duke of Qin

    Very good comment on analogies between Protestants and Sunnis. The chaos and multitude of Protestant sects can’t be explained just by spontaneity alone just like various Islamist groups must be looked through the prism of funding sources and who befits from their operation.

  408. @Seraphim

    What alliance is this? Any common cause between Jews and Muslims died when Israel was created. The only extant alliance between the three religions is between evangelical American Protestant Christians and Israeli nationalists as the former reckon supporting the latter will bring about the Rapture.

    • Replies: @German_reader
    , @songbird
  409. Randal says:
    @utu

    You made many good points I agree with. Sorry that I misrepresented you by associating with Islamophobes. I actually did not believe it when I wrote it. I was just to careless and sloppy.

    Cheers, I appreciate the clarification. There is in general plenty that we agree on.

    I agree on Iran and Shiites and their positive role in the ME but it would change if they started funding mosques in Europe and promote Islam in Europe as Sunni SA does

    Indeed, but is there any reason to suppose they will ever do that? And if they ever do, then our approach to them might have to change, but it is not that day.

    which benefits the “non-jihadists” characters like Talha who nevertheless rejoice Islamization of Europe. He is not our friend. Just like Jews were not our friends when at minimum they rejoiced every setback of Catholic Church in Europe.

    Well Talha is a reasonable and intelligent advocate for his position, and seems like a decent chap. I don’t think I’d have any problem calling him a friend if I met him offline. A big part of the intractability of mass immigration once it is in place is precisely that so many members of the immigrant populations are in themselves as individuals perfectly decent, and resisting the policy puts us in the position of seeming to hate the individuals in question. It’s inherently corrupting, much as policies like promoting divorce or normalising homosexual behaviour are inherently corrupting – once these people are around and in the open, one has to be rude to them to try to return society to sense, which makes it hard. One response is to consistently personalise it and refuse to have anything to do with the individuals representing the bad policy – immigrants, divorcees, homosexuals, whatever. Another is to try to remain on decent terms with them (if they are in turn decently behaved) but resolutely refuse to let that change your stance on the wider policy issue even if you have to “offend” them occasionally. Both are difficult for most people.

    The real guilty scum are the traitors in our own communities using their media and political and other positions of power to impose continuing mass immigration.

    I said that Iran was delegitimized in the eyes of the West by the Islamic Revolution and American embassy occupation so sanctions could be imposed, so we had no guilt by driving Iran to war with Iraq, so Iran became weaker and in the place that Israel really wanted it to be. It was not a dismissive comment in any way.

    Fair enough and clearly it is true that the revolution gave the US a reason and a pretext to try to isolate Iran and to wage economic warfare against it. But the same would have been true if the communists involved in the Iranian revolution had won out and suppressed the islamists. And the issues driving the revolution in Iran were far bigger imo than any Israeli/jewish interference.

    Whether Muslim Brotherhood could play a positive role as, say Shiites in Lebanon, I do not know. They allowed themselves to be used by CIA for no good. Then more recently Israel seemed positive about them and Morsi, so I do not think they are who they claim they are. They have been compromised.

    The ME is a snakepit of rivalries and enmities and alliances of convenience, and the MB were active in that environment. They were inevitably opposed to the remnants of the mostly discredited secular socialist/nationalist Baathist governments, and they weren’t fussy about how they fought the and who they allied with to do so. Israel and the CIA certainly took advantage of them when it suited them to do so.

    We will never know where the MB would have taken Egypt if they had been left in office. For sure they would have been fully on board with the Israeli/Gulf sunni/US regime change project in Syria and in de facto alliance with the jihadists, and that would have been a problem.

    But if Israel really, as you suggested, wanted the MB in power in Egypt then the US would have prevented their overthrow rather than winking at it. The US regime rarely if ever acts against Israel’s wishes on anything of substance. Personally, I don’t think the Egyptian secular government was at all a concern for Israel.

    However I will defend my position that all problems were of our own creation though without our permission, because nobody asked us what Israel and the US were planning to do. Without CIA, MI5 and Mossad activities and influence in the ME we would be in much better shape. We would be as much concerned about what is going on in the ME as we are now concerned about Indonesia or Malaysia.

    The only disagreement I would have with any of this is your use of the word “all”.

    I believe we should let them be and help them in constructive ways and yes I favor some degree of secularization like it was in Libya, Iraq and Syria with universities, medical care, welfare and industrialization or even Afghanistan at some brief period were some women were wearing minis. Some degree of secularization is necessary to build modern society that will be self-suffient and offer opportunities for its people but the decisions should be left up to them.

    Here we disagree, because of my own bias as a social conservative and in favour of religion. I don’t think secularisation is necessary or constructive, and I think small amounts of it as you suggest are just destabilising, creating demand for further secularisation and weakening the resistance to those demands. Again, the exemplar is Iran, which is not at all secularised, but still functions fine, all things considered, in extremely difficult circumstances. Many of the things you mention represent modernisation rather than secularisation – Iran has universities, medical care, welfare and a degree of industrialisation (allowing for the effects of sanctions and the “resource curse”) as well.

    But we are unlikely to agree here because our differences are rather fundamental.

    The reason I object to Islamophobia strongly is because it is also a creation and possible a part of a plan to get us involved in another Zionist war or enterprise. Before our Islamophobia gets us to repatriate one Muslim from Europe it is more likely it will help Israel to send 10 new ones to Europe because we as Islamophobes will be condoning whatever Isarel does there. Besides Islamophobes irritate me because they are like unaware children without historical memory and context. My initial comment was about the lost memory, I think.

    Here I think you need to be very careful because using a term such as “islamophobia” is like using the similar terms “racism” and “anti-Semitism”. These are inherently dishonest smear terms that mostly serve to obfuscate and deceive. They can be used, imo, but only with great care and in limited circumstances, such as when I used the terms “racist” and “anti-Semite” above as pure short-hands, having to dress my usage around with caveats and explanations to avoid the connotations and misunderstandings inherent to the terms.

    For sure there is a thread in hostility to islam and muslims which is used to (and intended to) promote Israeli/jewish interests – see my first comments to this thread about nationalism in Britain. But hostility towards the introduction of islam to formerly Christian societies in Europe and the US is much broader than just that aspect. The trick is not to tar all those opposed to the expansion of islam with the same brush, while still being alert to the dangers.

    I can’t prove what I believe and you can’t disprove it either.

    Indeed, but bear in mind that I don’t say that what you believe “could never” or “must never” be true (as many – perhaps most, amongst the established US sphere elites, for sure – would assert, whilst denouncing you for thought- and speech-crime). I simply disagree with it at the moment.

    I am trying to formulate a very rational and reasonable hypotheses that are not driven by a priori assumption of existence of “overwhelmingly [...] jewish conspiracy.” However, if some events unfold I always look at them ask a question every Jew asks: “Is it good for us or not”or rather “Has Israel anything to do with it.” I think is is prudent to do so.

    Well it’s rational for jews to view every event and issue through that prism, because they are jews. I’m not sure it’s necessarily so for others, is it? Shouldn’t you be assessing the relevance of every event and issue for your own nation?

    The “failure of secular socialism and nationalism” in the ME would not be of this magnitude if it was not for actions of the US and Israel.

    For sure, but the failure of the European solutions of secular socialism and nationalism in the muslim world was wider than just the ME, and of course among the goals at which those philosophies failed were precisely the defeat of the disastrous power the US and (in the ME) Israel wielded over muslim nations. So in a sense that is inevitable.

    And that great societal, political and philosophical failure in the mid-late C20th is where I see the real roots of the late C20th muslim resurgence, not the manipulation for strategic purposes by Israel or even by the US. The latter contributed, for sure, and had great influence on how it turned out in particular cases, but was not imo the driving force.

    So this argument is actually a counter argument to your thesis that I overdo with the ‘conspiracy stuff.’

    Well please do bear in mind that I don’t choose to raise this as an issue with you ordinarily. It’s a view you have with which I agree in part but not entirely, is all, but not an important one usually. I raise it only in direct response to what I saw as an attack consequent in part upon it.

    • Replies: @utu
    , @dfordoom
  410. Randal says:
    @Seamus Padraig

    You are right about Washington’s baleful influence over Britain–not to mention the rest of Europe–and so was Enoch Powell

    Sadly it must be conceded that Bragadocious’ comment is also correct, up to a point – that in effect we did this to ourselves. There’s plenty of blame to go around. And I absolutely understand your feeling as an American that you yourselves are under occupation.

  411. @Duke of Qin

    In the 1980s when Hezbollah was pioneering the use of suicide bombing by Muslims and Iran was drunk on its Islamic Revolution, your notion of Shia holding to natural order and legitimacy would have been a little hard to swallow. You are over-egging the differences in doctrine making Sunni Muslims more rabid, the cause of that is Saudi and Gulf oil wealth spreading out the crazy version of Islam they follow. Go back to the 1950s-70s and the hijab etc. would have barely been seen in most Muslim countries.

  412. Randal says:
    @iffen

    Except for the dishonest part.

    Why do some people always want to play the dishonest card against those people whose argument they find disagreeable?

    Well in the comment to which you were replying the term was used rather differently, but I recognise the point, which is one you have made on a number of previous occasions.

    If one reads an opinion about the world with which one disagrees, once any simple misunderstandings have been cleared up, there are logically three broad possibilities: one is wrong and the opiner is correct, one is correct and the opiner is mistaken, or one is correct and the opiner is lying.

    You might be correct that there are some people who habitually leap to the third position (or that there are people who habitually leap to that position on particular issues). But you are incorrect in implying that I am one (as you have openly suggested on other occasions). In general I assume in most cases that the second is correct, though I’m more or less open to the first depending upon the issue and the opiner. I tend to go to the third only when experience suggests it’s the most likely explanation. That might be because, as with for instance neocons and especially those with positions in the media or political elite, long experience suggests those views are not tenable honestly or are not usually held honestly. Or it might be because I have come to distrust particular individuals.

    All such judgements are inherently ultimately speculative to some degree of course, but often the reasons for reaching them are good enough for government work.

    • Replies: @iffen
  413. Randal says:
    @iffen

    All the way down to the last of the 3rd paragraph before “blame America first.”

    Gosh, suggesting that the world’s dominant power, and indeed the “world’s only superpower” for some considerable time, actually has some responsibility for events and issues around the world! Whatever next, eh?

    • Replies: @iffen
  414. @Seraphim

    Also, I am not sure why you are bringing up taqiyah. That is largely a Shia doctrine since they were usually living in regions where they would be subject to oppression by Sunnis. And it was not a doctrine that said you were supposed to keep your plan to take over the world secret, it said it was OK to pretend you were not observant if you were at risk of serious harm. Sunni Muslims were pretty much always top dogs in the societies they lived in, exactly who would they need to dissemble to? Muslims in the British, French and Dutch empires had no particular need to hide their religious practice and the Muslims and Moriscos from Iberia were expelled anyway. There was probably a fair amount of taqiyah in godless Communist dictatorships, in the USSR in the past and in Xinjiang now.

  415. iffen says:
    @German_reader

    That’s true, but I still think it’s very difficult to consciously adopt a belief because you know it to be useful…it feels intellectually dishonest to me.

    If an individual believes religion to be invaluable to his group, he could very easily obtain spiritual satisfaction knowing that he had placed the interests of the group above his own individual preference.

  416. utu says:
    @Randal

    Thank you for your good comments.

    I should have used modernization instead of secularization. If they can build religious and modern successful society as Iran seems to be doing I am all for it. Just make it so good that nobody would want to emigrate form your countries. Including all the well meaning Talhas and your secular Muslims that found your countries not modern or not secular enough.

    Obviously terms like Islamophobia, racism, anti-semitism are loaded and ambiguous. I also use it as a short-hand but it is imprecise and misleading. For me it is excessively emotional negative attitude towards Muslims. I mean blind emotional hatred which prevents people from seeing real causes of the problem and how rush solutions might be counter productive. Basically I do not want people to be useful idiots whether they are immigrant loving ‘left’ or immigrant hating ‘right’. Basically they should think of consequences and about how possibly might be manipulating them for his benefits.

    But if Israel really, as you suggested, wanted the MB in power in Egypt then the US would have prevented their overthrow rather than winking at it. The US regime rarely if ever acts against Israel’s wishes on anything of substance.

    The person who admonishes me for belief in an excessive power of Israel is saying that? I was open to entertain the idea that in this case Israel did not get what it wanted. Keep in mind it was the era of Obama when the US Israel relations were strained.

    But the same would have been true if the communists involved in the Iranian revolution had won out and suppressed the islamists. And the issues driving the revolution in Iran were far bigger imo than any Israeli/jewish interference.

    But then Iran would fall within the USSR sphere of influence that would mean a continued industrialization and development of military. This would not make Israel happy. There are always issues and various grass-root events that drive evolution. But you can seed and prime them, you can finance them, you can slightly redirect them, you can kill some leaders and find others. It is too simplistic and naive to look at this as purely organic evolution. There is always a synthetic element which is hard to prove but it is foolish to dismiss it. So when Huntington 10 or so years later started talking about the clash of civilizations, meaning Islam and Islam only I do not look at it as descriptive writings of a brilliant politologist. It is mostly prescriptive. It is a handbook helping people to learn how to think and how to talk about what is going to happen. This was a result of work of many think tanks which formulated directions for the Empire after the fall of the USSR. And this unfolded very quickly. Saddam Hussain invaded Kuwait just as they wanted.

    And that great societal, political and philosophical failure in the mid-late C20th is where I see the real roots of the late C20th muslim resurgence, not the manipulation for strategic purposes by Israel or even by the US.

    Combination of organic and synthetic. Combination of Hegel and Machiavelli. I am meeting you half way. He

    • Replies: @Randal
    , @reiner Tor
  417. Randal says:
    @AaronB

    With regard to racism, nowhere have I counseled putting our heads in the sand. Again, be brutally honest. But be moral – honestly point out black dysfunction, but emphasize the role of values in changing the situation. I’m fact, this is more honest. And avoid sneering contempt of the Sailor kind.

    But again, this requires a abandoning materialism.

    I am afraid this is all I can give you. I am sorry if you find them childish platitudes. You are an old man – perhaps you cannot make the leap.

    You squirt these platitudes around like squid ink to obscure your lack of any constructive response to specific points made. And it’s particularly irritating when you pontificate about “materialism” to people who (certainly in my own case) went through that phase of simplistic generalism decades ago and grew out of it shortly afterwards.

    It’s a bit like trying to have a conversation about the world with a group of people, while in the corner there’s a middle-aged hippy smoking a fat spliff and contributing nothing of substance but just butting in to criticise people who say something politically incorrect: “Hey, man, chill a bit! Don’t be mean, now. That’s waycist! Not cool. What you need is love, man.”

    As for Sailer (and he’s not the first writer who expresses politically incorrect facts about race that I’ve noticed you attacking), the whole point about (that aspect of) what Sailer does is precisely that he says things that upset blacks and those who apologise for them, and what is vital about him saying it is precisely that these harsh truths and opinions are excluded from mainstream discourse, leaving society seriously unbalanced, with clear and dire policy consequences. Far from doing so with “sneering disrespect”, in actual fact Sailer is pretty controlled and respectable in his discourse. For a balanced society we’d have him opining in the upmarket newspapers and journals to balance out the race deniers and lefty globalist fantasists, and more robust shit-slingers of the kind you falsely portray him as in the downmarket press to balance out the cruder identity lobbyists, and the antifa and pc morons.

    But hey, man, I get that if we could all just be a bit more respectful to each other that problem would be solved. Yeah, right.

    • Replies: @AaronB
  418. Randal says:
    @utu

    Thank you for your good comments.

    You’re very welcome, and likewise.

    Basically I do not want people to be useful idiots whether they are immigrant loving ‘left’ or immigrant hating ‘right’. Basically they should think of consequences and about how possibly might be manipulating them for his benefits.

    I agree that’s a sensible and very necessary caution. (Again, see my original comments here about the state of British nationalism).

    The person who admonishes me for belief in an excessive power of Israel is saying that?

    LOL! Touche!

    I was open to entertain the idea that in this case Israel did not get what it wanted. Keep in mind it was the era of Obama when the US Israel relations were strained

    .
    That’s a fair point, but it was also the era of Kerry and Clinton as Secretaries of State. The deep state was pretty firmly in control and not much happened that really upset Israel. The strain was mostly because they were used to getting everything their way (I don’t think it’s going too far to recognise the near completeness of Israeli influence over US regime foreign policy).

    It is too simplistic and naive to look at this as purely organic evolution. There is always a synthetic element which is hard to prove but it is foolish to dismiss it……Combination of organic and synthetic. Combination of Hegel and Machiavelli. I am meeting you half way.

    Fair enough. Our differences are probably of degree rather than fundamental, here.

    • Replies: @utu
  419. DFH says:
    @Seraphim

    Almost like letting foreigners rule your country is a bad thing because they might have divergent interests

    • Replies: @Anon
  420. AaronB says:
    @dfordoom

    Your cause is to build a new civilization based on higher values, with a unified people at its core.

    Like it used to be.

  421. iffen says:
    @Randal

    there are logically three broad possibilities: one is wrong and the opiner is correct, one is correct and the opiner is mistaken, or one is correct and the opiner is lying.

    They could both be correct. They could both be incorrect. They could both be lying. The matter at hand does not conform to a correct/incorrect analysis.

    • Replies: @Randal
  422. @utu

    But then Iran would fall within the USSR sphere of influence that would mean a continued industrialization and development of military. This would not make Israel happy. There are always issues and various grass-root events that drive evolution. But you can seed and prime them, you can finance them, you can slightly redirect them, you can kill some leaders and find others. It is too simplistic and naive to look at this as purely organic evolution.

    Revolutions, like wars, or even cultural developments, are messy and complex organic matters. While its true that their outcomes often hang in the balance and are (or can be) greatly influenced by relatively minor actions, the problem is that they are inherently chaotic and so their results cannot be predicted with any degree of precision.

    This means that while Israel (or the US, or the UK, or France, or whoever) might want to influence the outcome, and they might even have elaborate plans to do so, the results of their actions might be unpredictable, but even if they could determine the proximate results (e.g. Islamist rule in Iran), which I highly doubt, the ultimate results (i.e. an ever stronger anti-Israel regime supporting Hezbollah etc.) might be net negative for them.

    • Replies: @utu
  423. Anon[198] • Disclaimer says:
    @DFH

    Almost like letting foreigners rule your country is a bad thing because they might have divergent interests

    Ah, so I see you’ve come around on the case of Ireland…

  424. iffen says:
    @Randal

    actually has some responsibility for events and issues around the world!

    One issue that seems to give you a particularly bad case of heartburn (rightly so imo) is governmental prosecutions of “hate speech” in your country.

    Is your government following the lead of the U.S. on this very important issue?

    • Replies: @Randal
  425. Pericles says:
    @TheJester

    An update on the Swedes who seems to think the same way. It seems that Sweden now admits that it needs more workers to sustain its world-class welfare state.

    Did you just arrive here from the 1990s?

  426. AaronB says:
    @Randal

    You don’t see “substance” in my proposal because you are, in effect, a materialist and rationalist. How can so nebulous a thing as “values” actually help blacks be less dysfunctional? There’s no substance in that! There’s nothing physical there!

    Well, I am proposing that blacks can be less dysfunctional if they are taught good values, and socially pressured to conform to them. That merely condemning them will make them rebellious – but that condemning them without contempt, and helping them improve, wont.

    To me these “moral factors” are more realistic and “substantive” than anything else – but to a rationalist materialist – yes, you – who has zero appreciation for “moral factors” they cannot appear anything other than pointless.

    And that you fail to note Sailers’s tone of contempt merely reinforces that you are blind to moral factors.

    Too bad that you don’t like my generalization that you are a materialist – that is what you are. Like a typical analytical modern, such generalizations are “platitudes” – we must produce a thousand caveats and analyze it logically from a thousand directions! – but simple truths are simple truths.

    To the overrational modern, all simple truths are platitudes, which is why they are so smart yet so stupid. Everything they say is banal and hemmed in by caveats.

    So to repeat – I think moral and spiritual factors are primary forces in the world. You think physical factors are – that’s why you think my proposals which center on moral and spiritual factors lack “substance” , and my observation of simple spiritual truths like you are a materialist seem like “platitudes” to you, because they don’t sufficiently take into account the million caveats that the modern analytical mind can find, but offer simple truths that see the forest and don’t get lost in the trees.

    You write lengthy well-reasoned posts that get lots of physical details right but miss the moral and spiritual dimension as well as the overall larger picture – you lose yourself in a mass of trivial details, focus on proximate causes, and have no capacity to see ultimate causes, like most commenters here. Utu sees ultimate causes better than you – but he isn’t a materialist.

    But you represent the older way of thinking which naively believes we can “reason” our way out of this if we just think hard enough – that’s why you write such long posts without a single larger inspiring truth that gets the larger picture right, but offer a well-reasoned mass of trivial details that lead only to despair.

    It is your mindset – the modern mindset – that the next generation must leave behind. The next generation must thrill to what you call “platitudes” –
    simple spiritual truths that get the larger picture right – and they must find a feast just where you find no “substance” – in spiritual and moral factors.

    The cold, deathly chill of your “reason” is what we must overcome. But you cannot take the leap. That much is clear.

    We must wait patiently for new men.

    • Replies: @Randal
    , @DFH
    , @songbird
  427. Randal says:
    @iffen

    They could both be correct. They could both be incorrect. They could both be lying. The matter at hand does not conform to a correct/incorrect analysis.

    Depends what the matter at hand is, and how profoundly sceptical you are prepared to go.

    They could both be correct

    In most cases that would be covered by my “clearing up misunderstandings” caveat.

    They could both be incorrect.

    Insofar as this is also not covered by the misunderstanding caveat, this is a legitimate other category, but not one that changes the basic thrust of the point which did not require the categories given to exhaust the possibilities.

    They could both be lying.

    It is implicitly assumed that one is not (or at any rate one believes one is not), lying to oneself. It’s a possibility though which, even if applicable, again doesn’t change the basic thrust.

  428. Randal says:
    @AaronB

    You don’t see “substance” in my proposal because you are, in effect, a materialist and rationalist. How can so nebulous a thing as “values” actually help blacks be less dysfunctional? There’s no substance in that! There’s nothing physical there!

    This is simply incorrect, and you should know it is incorrect because just the other day I pointed out that blacks (the context was US blacks in particular) would benefit from a return to coercive old-school Christianity for precisely this reason, and you agreed with my point.

    But don’t let being wrong interfere with your diagnosis.

    • Replies: @AaronB
  429. Randal says:
    @iffen

    One issue that seems to give you a particularly bad case of heartburn (rightly so imo) is governmental prosecutions of “hate speech” in your country.

    Is your government following the lead of the U.S. on this very important issue?

    Pointing out a particular case in which the US was not responsible would not affect the general truth that the US is responsible for much that goes on in the world.

    But as a matter of fact yes, political correctness in its modern form originated in the US in the late C20th, and provided the basis for the modern acceptance of “hate speech” as being separate from acceptable free speech. Much as the US provided the models for the identity lobbies that push the agenda forward. The US has the First Amendment which has slowed the rollout of its full consequences in your country, but I suspect you will not be all that far behind us.

  430. AaronB says:
    @Randal

    Then why exactly do you persistently claim there is no “substance” in my proposal that we deal with black dysfunction by a return to good values?

    You are having rationalist “hiccups” .

    • Replies: @Randal
  431. Randal says:
    @AaronB

    Then why exactly do you persistently claim there is no “substance” in my proposal that we deal with black dysfunction by a return to good values?

    I refer to your platitudes as having no substance, because they don’t.

    “Good values” is empty verbiage. Christian revival in US black communities is a specific proposal to address a specific problem (how realistic it is in practice is another question, mind you).

    • Replies: @AaronB
    , @Thorfinnsson
  432. AaronB says:

    And I must add that Steve Sailer is just about the most morally degrading reading about blacks you can have today

    Sailer says – look at those stupid blacks, how inferior to us whites! ha ha ha (while begging Jews to throw him scraps, and sucking up to them). It’s not just morally degrading -it’s humiliating to white people on both ends.

    Not – the msm lies. Black dysfunction is real and serious. Let us be honest about this and help them return to good values – which, for that matter, our own people also need.

    But Steve is a rational materialist, and so prey to every petty impulse. And you think Steve does good work because you share his mentality, Randal.

    I favor honesty with morality.

  433. AaronB says:
    @Randal

    “Good values” is empty verbiage.

    Really. I see. Christianity is also vague – when unpacked, good values can be quite specific. Both are labels. You’re reaching.

    So let’s say, a belief in God, in community – rejection of individualism – in the crucial role of hard work, motivation, and enthusiasm – no genetic fatalism and despair – in kindness, compassion, and justice, self-respect and dignity. And transcendental goals – not selfish material goals.

    Christianity is not essential to this – although it is a fine vehicle for it.

  434. @Randal

    The real solution to black dysfunction is slavery.

    Even less realistic of course.

    • Replies: @iffen
  435. iffen says:
    @Thorfinnsson

    The real solution to black dysfunction is slavery.

    Will this be one of your campaign slogans?

    The real solution for dysfunctional persons of any race is to live in a functional society that takes care to structure the institutions in such a way that maximizes their chances to “function.”

    • Replies: @AaronB
  436. DFH says:
    @AaronB

    You’re right, pre-modern people like St. Aquinas had no interest in logic or reason!

    • Replies: @AaronB
  437. AaronB says:
    @iffen

    How odd – I agree with iffen.

    Be careful iffen, you are spouting vague platitudes – you must drown it in a couple of pages of hemming and hawing, caveats and logical twist and turns so that your original message is lost and you don’t know where you stand anymore, and then you can throw your hands up snd say it’s all hopeless, hopeless anyways – you knew it all along!

    But at least you won’t be speaking in platitudes.

  438. AaronB says:
    @DFH

    Didn’t he chuck it all after writing the Summa saying he had a mystical experience and all his writings were as nothing compared to it, and ceased writing from then on :) Funny how the Holy Spirit guided you to choose just that example lol.

    An excess of logic was always the weakness at the heart of western culture – but today it has grown to monstrous proportions, strangling everything.

  439. @utu

    Cold War started it and Israel continued it.

    Cold war may have intensified it, but such movements have far deeper roots. Deobandis in the Indian subcontinent and Wahhabis in Arabia go back to the 18th century. Muslim Brothers were founded in the 1920s.
    And there’s of course a very long history of hostility between what was once Latin Christendom and the world of Islam. Islamic societies were aggressors against Europe for centuries, that only changed when Europeans became technologically and militarily superior. I’m never just going to trust the good intentions of pious Muslims.

    It is beyond discussion: no sane person should accept Muslim immigration to Europe. If Islamophobia is what it takes I am willing to accept it as a necessary evil, however I am afraid that Islamophobes and people like you will end up first going to get involved in some operations benefiting Israel rather than taking care of the problem of immigration to Europe.

    I don’t know how you get that idea, you’re projecting beliefs onto me which aren’t mine. I’ve come to greatly dislike Israel and its deranged partisans in Western countries and I’m definitely opposed to any further Western military interventions in the Mideast. So I think your characterization of me isn’t justified.

  440. utu says:
    @reiner Tor

    I do not have much evidence for external interference of secret services to overthrow Shah in 1979 and destabilize Iran. This is my hypothesis that I would have never formed in 1980 but in 2000′s after seeing what has been happening in the ME the hypothesis on just the qui bono criterion makes a very good sense.

    It is banal to state that not everything can be predicted. This does not stop various actors from plotting and making designs for the future. This banality can’t be your serious objection, right? The existence and strength of Hezbollah certainly is related to Iran going through 1979 revolution. But what if it did not? What if Iran continued rapid industrial growth and modernization and being excellent and indispensable American ally in Cold War who is armed by America and France and developing nuclear industry with the help of France and all the time being a Muslim nation (not government) that is rather hostile to Israel and potentially can go through some Islamic revolution and retain all this industrial potential? Why to stop this possibility and not nip it in the bud? And that what happened and Iran was set back few decades of development because it was cut off from the West.

    The biggest problem for Israel was that Iran was an ally of the US thus it was untouchable. After the Islamic Revolution you could sanction it, spit at it and kick it all what you wanted. It became a pariah nation. This is the qui bono. And that Hezbollah showed up down the road is another and rather minor problem. In the meantime huge Muslim nation with great potential was taken out of business for 39 years already.

    You are too young to know of great publicity Iran had in 1970s in the Western media with special issues in Newsweek devoted to economic miracle of Iran and bringing modernity to the ME. They were our sons of bitches and we could juxtapose Iran next to Soviet sons of bitches who also were developing at rapid pace like Libya and Iraq but Iran was doing it better, was stronger and had our values. Everybody was rooting for Iran to succeed. The only country in our camp that was concerned with all this was Israel.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
  441. @Ali Choudhury

    Any common cause between Jews and Muslims died when Israel was created.

    In western countries Jews and Muslims often make common cause against the (post-)Christian majority, Jews at least frequently make statements of the sort that they regard Muslims as allies in the fight for minority rights.

    • Replies: @Ali Choudhury
  442. @German_reader

    That is regarding rather inconsequential issues like being able to have the bodies of the deceased released for burials by coroners’ within 24 hours, dietary issues, the right to wear religious garb and setting up faith schools. Not for some imaginary project where Jews and Muslims team up to destroy Christendom.

    • Replies: @German_reader
  443. @Ali Choudhury

    These issues aren’t inconsequential at all, it’s part of a creeping process whereby the cultural identity of Western societies is redefined to accomodate pushy minorities. End result is that it becomes impossible to even discuss, let alone shut down mass immigration, because all distinctions of “us” and “them” are seen as illegitimate (we’re all multiculturalists now!) and any expression of identity by the native majority – which is on the way to becoming a minority – is suppressed as not inclusive enough.

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
  444. songbird says:
    @Ali Choudhury

    Bernie Sanders got a lot of Muslim support. A Jewish acquaintance of mine said that it made him very proud. They usually support the same political parties.

    Both groups are, by and large, open border advocates to the West, together the most important part of a larger coalition. Jews are the major political movers on this front – it is impossible not to notice, when you have a guy like Shatter in Ireland opening up the border. Jews lived with Christians, so Christians are their great other, not Muslims, who very few ever lived with – since they weren’t very prosperous under them, and did not multiply like they did among Europeans.

    It is basically like the tales of the Islamic conquest of Spain being repeated – Jews are opening the city gates (this is what Muslims said that they did). In the end, they decided that they didn’t like Muslims, after all, and fled to the Christian parts of Spain. But the same sort of conspiracy happened in other parts of Europe. It’s like Tip O’Neill said, “All politics is local.”

  445. @German_reader

    In addition to being quite consequential, passing numerous laws against such Islamic and Jewish custom is a great way of keeping them out. We need more than simply immigration enforcement.

    A good way to think about this is the evolution of German defense on the Western Front during the First World War. Initially troops and firepower were concentrated at the front, in order to provide maximum power at the point of any Entente offensive.

    Trouble was this meant breakthroughs, when they occurred, couldn’t be checked immediately. Crowded front trenches were also vulnerable to high explosive shells, which became available to the Entente in bulk by 1916.

    As such German defense evolved into a defense in depth strategy where the front line was thinly screened and primarily for reconnaissance purposes. Deep, interlocking layers and trenches and underground bunkers with reserve troops were developed. This made penetration of German defenses without massed tanks effectively impossible until American troops arrived in numbers and German morale collapsed (partly simply out of hunger).

    Likewise we need a lot more than border control and immigration enforcement.

    We need widespread racism and religious bigotry for instance, promoted by official propaganda and education. We need to make it illegal to encapsulate medication in vegetable gelatin. Instead, a mixture of beef and pork gelatin should be required. Halal, Kosher, circumcision, etc. should all be banned. And so on and so forth.

  446. @songbird

    Jews lived with Christians, so Christians are their great other,

    I suspect it’s also a theological issue in part, Jewish and Muslim conceptions of God are much closer to each other than to the Christian trinity after all. Religious praxis also has striking similarities (religious law, circumcision, ritualised slaughter of animals etc.).

    • Replies: @songbird
  447. songbird says:
    @AaronB

    You cannot reform a people externally. They must reform themselves, or there is no hope for them. Social pressures don’t work in multicultural societies, anyway. For instance, white women on the street might correct white boys behaving badly; they will not correct black boys.

    Look at the AIDs infection rates in Africa. They are simply incredible. They whore at an unbelievable level – even when they have a plague that afflicts those who whore. It is right in line, with the observations of anthropologists that said their families were matrilineal because an uncle (mother’s brother) could be sure he was related, but a father could not.

    The abolitionists all advocated reforming blacks. They thought it was their duty to elevate them, even as some acknowledged that they needed to be returned to Africa. They thought they needed to be taught how to be civilized first. The result of that rather foolish mistake is that Western Civ is about to implode.

    The only rational course with blacks is segregation. Complete cutoff of all welfare and all aid to Africa. Don’t throw good money after trillions of bad. Probably cheaper to maintain a border than the prisons and police.

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
  448. songbird says:
    @German_reader

    I’m thinking mainly of the atheistic or agnostic Jews, but I can see how you may be right on even some of the modern incidentals.

    It really is quite strange how much the dietary prohibitions have taken force in our society. We are basically paying a small kosher tax on many food products. Meanwhile, pork products have been removed from many school lunches in service to special interest groups.

    I’ve known a few Jews (reformed or not believing) who were perfectly willing to eat ham, which makes it all the stranger, and possibly only comprehensible in the context of so many Muslims entering Europe, creating ripple effects in other parts of the West.

  449. songbird says:
    @AP

    I get the sense that we are missing out on a lot of good ethnic jokes today. Here’s my contribution of one of the few ones I have heard – a black joke, in two parts:

    Ever notice how there are no blacks on The Flintstones? Guess they were still apes back then.

    Ever notice how there are no blacks on The Jetsons? Guess the future is looking pretty bright.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
  450. @songbird

    like the tales of the Islamic conquest of Spain being repeated – Jews are opening the city gates

    To be fair, they had rather good reason for doing this:

    A series of anti-Jewish laws in the late seventh century, for example, forbade circumcision under penalty of castration (for circumcisee and circumciser alike).** In 694 a law was approved under which all Spanish Jews were to be reduced to slaves and distributed among the rich and pious, with Jewish children up to the age of seven separated from their parents so they would receive a proper Christian education.

    ** For a woman circumciser, the penalty was loss of her nose.

    • Replies: @songbird
  451. Svigor says:
    @Randal

    Cultural change is bad enough, albeit inevitable, but race replacement is quite another level of destruction. I would infinitely prefer a muslim Britain by conversion to a Britain populated by members of another race or ethnicity as a result of mass immigration and differential childbearing.

    Yes, somehow I doubt the Spanish were mind-conquered the way Whites are in the West. They had the luxury of actually being conquered militarily, not sold down the river by their own elite via mass indoctrination and open borders, via conversion to an autogenocidal religion.

    This is why people dumb it down to “the West committing suicide.” Nonsense, but nonsense with a kernel of truth.

    Whites are not even a people anymore. This first war, the Reconquista of the White Mind, is going to be the hardest fight, by far. Peoples are always ready to fight for their own side. Our job is to make Whites into peoples. It’s a huge task.

    The rest of the war will practically fight itself. England could shrug her shoulders and evict the invaders in a fortnight if she wanted to.

  452. Svigor says:
    @AaronB

    From your lips to G-d’s Ears.

  453. utu says:
    @Randal

    Fyi: few headlines about Morsi from Israeli papers

    WHY IS PRESIDENT MORSI HELPING ISRAEL, NOT HAMAS?

    https://www.jpost.com/Opinion/Columnists/Why-is-President-Morsi-helping-Israel-not-Hamas-307157

    Mossad man ‘met with Morsi on eve of his becoming Egypt president’

    https://www.timesofisrael.com/mossad-agent-met-with-morsi-on-eve-of-becoming-egypt-president/

    Four Reasons Why Israel May Miss Morsi After All

    https://www.haaretz.com/.premium-why-israel-may-miss-morsi-after-all-1.5290802

    Remember that initially I wrote that Israel seemed to be conflicted about Morsi.

    And this is from well known fairly decent ‘conspiracy’ site which proves your argument that Israel controls everything, including the US and possibly the weather:

    Israel Admits Role in Overthrow of Mohamed Morsi and Installation of President Al-Sisi, Planned in Cooperation with Egypt’s Military

    https://www.globalresearch.ca/israel-admits-role-in-overthrow-of-mohamed-morsi-and-installation-of-president-al-sisi-planned-in-cooperation-with-egypts-military/5515195

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  454. @songbird

    You can reform other peoples, but it’s harder.

    The British managed to put a stop to a number of retrograde practices in India for instance, and those practices have not returned. Pre-British India literally had religious murder cults whom believed kidnapping and murdering strangers was holy, and a lot of other totally wacko things.

    The British also left India their magnificent law, which carries on in India to this day (though there are issues with bribery and inadequate resources devoted to courts).

    Likewise the Caribbean has the best behaved blacks in the entire world, bar Haiti. Barbados is as prosperous as Eastern Europe, though naturally crime is much higher. Bahamians lived under slavery for two centuries and white supremacy for more than three. It left an impact.

    American blacks even lived in monogamous nuclear families when white supremacy ruled.

    The issue with reforming other peoples isn’t that it can’t be done, it’s that it’s cucking. Imagine instead of the Caribbean was the tropical aryan surf paradise promoted by Bronze Age Pervert, the world’s most visionary alt-right leader. We can make that dream happen.

    • Replies: @songbird
  455. Svigor says:
    @Dmitry

    HBD. Kazakhs are Mongoloid, quite different from Arabs or Pakis. Mongoloids don’t really do the zealot thing.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  456. Svigor says:
    @Ali Choudhury

    I agree with Randal, this is bullshit. Japs’ birthrate has crashed, yet Japan is still Japanese. They can repopulate at their leisure.

    • Replies: @Ali Choudhury
  457. songbird says:
    @for-the-record

    In the context of what later happened, perhaps the Spaniards had pretty good reason for what they did.

    Everyone’s folks experienced barbarism in the Middle Ages. In most cases, it is easy to forget because it may have been caused by small warring states or political systems which no longer exist. Christianity still exists though and as a mark of the European people. The problem is some Jews seem to have developed a blood grudge against European Christians. Something that must be passed down in families or else as a subculture.

    I have heard it expressed plainly before, by one of my Jewish acquaintances: “These are the people who burned my ancestors.” He was talking about Charlottesville. His rhetoric was vile and nonsensical, but it is easy to extrapolate with an open borders sentiment, and the really charged language they often use in advocating it.

  458. Svigor says:
    @UrbaneFrancoOntarian

    One thing that I find missing from these (genuinely in-the-ballpark-correct) analyses is the iron law of minority status: as groups become minorities, their behavior changes dramatically. They start building walls around themselves. They start thinking of themselves as a people. They start monitoring how they’re treated by other groups, and reciprocating. Fighting for their share of the pie. Become endogamous. It’s a pretty big silver lining.

    I suspect it’s how every particularist (I’m looking at you, Jews) group was born.

    I think there is some subset of Whites (5%, 10%*) that is inherently ethnonationalist. Despite having the entire shoe stacked against us, White ethnonationalism is a growth industry. This will only accelerate as Whites slide into minority status.

    *Whatever the share, they will take a much larger group of squishier Whites with them; their DNA-ethnonationalism will spawn cultural ethnonationalism that will recruit other Whites, who otherwise would not be ethnonationalist, to the tribe.

    What I’m saying is that I think there’s a hard floor on how far White populations will dwindle.

  459. songbird says:
    @Thorfinnsson

    With regard to the Carribean, I think there is a definite trend: Haiti and Jamaica are constituted on bigger islands. They are the most retrograde and violent (even though Jamaica was ruled by Brits until fairly recently), since it is a lot harder to maintain order over more square miles.

    Meanwhile, on the smaller islands like the Bahamas, it is much easier to maintain order, and these are undoubtedly the most civilized black countries. Some say there was also a pattern to how the slave ships sold their wares. Some islands got first pick and others last, creating legacy HBD problems. Another possible HBD connection is the idea that murderers were easy to catch on small islands, so the propensity towards violence was reduced in the genepool.

    I agree with your cucked point. Only, I would add many peoples reformed themselves after meeting whites, like the Japanese and Thais even though they were never conquered, so it is hard to pull apart how much it was the desire to reform in some of the lands conquered by whites, even if whites created the legacies of reform.

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
  460. Svigor says:
    @Ali Choudhury

    It still says a Hell of a lot about Muslims and their religiosity. Americans could be dominated by a Great Satan, and they wouldn’t go all fundie Baptist. Hell, just how pissed off Muslims get over having another Muslim country invaded is striking. The equivalent would be something like Americans throwing a fundie Baptist revolution to overthrow a secular gov’t that toed the line of a secular superpower that invaded fundie Baptist Canada.

  461. @Svigor

    Japan has actually been trying to import more foreign labour for a while now though they have not been very successful thanks to their terrible working culture. When push comes to shove, politicians in countries with aged populations and low birth-rates will opt for more immigration. That is the quickest way they have to boost a workforce where more and more of the budget is spent on medical and social care for the elderly.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    , @Svigor
  462. Svigor says:
    @AP

    Anyways, the point being – Americans are very lucky compared to Europeans with respect to their immigration situation.

    Not from an ethnonationalist POV. From our POV, the more obnoxious the invaders, the better. Diseases that don’t set off an immune response are far deadlier.

    A close friend from eastern Europe, who votes for an anti-migrant party and hates Merkel (thus, he is no kind of liberal or self-hating European), lives down in Texas. He likes Mexicans.

    I don’t like or dislike Mexicans. Sorta like how I don’t like or dislike Tigers, but don’t want them anywhere near my yard, either.

    • Agree: Thorfinnsson
    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
  463. @Ali Choudhury

    The “terrible working culture” and the overall culture in general is designed in that way to more or less exclude just about everyone(unless they fit into a subculture, such as the Koreans, and even so, they are vanishingly small).

    And while immigration into Japan is often exaggeratedly in how difficult it is, it should be noted that they seriously have no patience whatsoever for the non-utilitarian purpose of immigration. Anything such as chain-migration or family reunification would be considered laughable there. Immigration exists basically to serve the country, and is controlled heavily through visas that require renewing.

    “Economic migrants” who come to make money in the country are basically considered parasites and popularly despised.

    That said, they have pretty much pushed themselves into a corner. That’s what happens when your country can’t make its own decisions. Fun times await all.

    • Replies: @songbird
  464. @songbird

    Bernie Sanders was pretty explicitly anti-Open Borders, saying unlimited immigration only benefited the likes of the Koch brothers. Muslims were attracted to Bernie Sanders (and to Jeremy Corbyn in the UK) because a social democracy is in line with their view of a morally just society where care of the poor, sick and unfortunate is of more importance than in Reagano-Thatcherism.

    Per wiki, most of the Jews expelled from Spain went to Muslims territories in North Africa and the Ottoman empire where the ruling sultan gave them a warm welcome with one of them becoming finance minister.

  465. @Ali Choudhury

    Per wiki, most of the Jews expelled from Spain went to Muslims territories in North Africa and the Ottoman empire where the ruling sultan gave them a warm welcome with one of them becoming finance minister.

    Yes, but before (12th/13 century) Jews had fled to the Christian kingdoms when the former caliphate came under the rule of the Almoravids and Almohads, unpleasant fanatics from the North African desert.

  466. Dmitry says:
    @songbird

    Both groups are, by and large, open border advocates to the West, together the most important part of a larger coalition. Jews are the major political movers on this front – it is impossible not to notice, when you have a guy like Shatter in Ireland opening up the border. Jews lived with Christians, so Christians are their great other, not Muslims, who very few ever lived with – since they weren’t very prosperous under them, and did not multiply like they did among Europeans.

    About half the Jews lived under Muslim rule. They are called the ‘Mizrahi Jews’. And they generally hate Muslims and Arabs.

    Another part of the population (the secular European origin Jews) are liberal and to a kind of suicidal level, believing in liberalism, ‘co-existence’ and democracy.

    Although the post-Soviet fraction of ones, are much more on the secular right-wing spectrum.

  467. @songbird

    The Tokugawa Shogunate was actually already undergoing indigenous modernization. In economic history this is known as the “Little Divergence” (Japan diverging from China), as opposed to the big divergence which was the low countries and England taking off starting around 1200.

    Apparently Japan at the time of Commodore Perry had around the level of development Britain did in 1700. The Japanese were also aware of many Western technological developments, which were studied through their contacts with the Dutch. This was known as Rangaku.

    Many events prior to Commodore Perry compelled the Shogunate to accelerate technological modernization. Notably the Nagasaki Harbor Incident and the First Opium War shocked the Japanese. By the 1850s the Japanese could manufacture some modern firearms.

    The Shogunate also had indigenous innovation. For instance they invented sports statistics all on their own, and their painting techniques became very highly advanced. Japanese carpentry attained a level probably exceeding Western carpentry.

    So without the “opening”, Japan was developing into some kind of modern civilization all on its own. It’s quite possible Ming China was headed in this direction as well, though I know less about this.

    What really happened is that Commodore Perry’s visit threw Japan into internal turmoil, ultimately leading to civil war where the Shogunate was defeated. Japan then chose to LARP as a hybrid of Britain and Germany for awhile while pursuing the most aggressive possible technological modernization for the next century.

    If the Shogunate had won the civil war I suspect Japan would still be modern today, but much more isolationist and culturally unique.

    Stuff like this is really why Japan is the only non-white country worth learning about other than China (which we now have to learn about out of self interest) and India (cartoonish and bizarre reactionary and hyper-diverse civilization).

    The rest of the world might as well not exist. In fact I would prefer if it didn’t.

    • Replies: @AaronB
  468. Dmitry says:
    @utu

    That’s not real Israeli media headlines. But English headlines, i.e. media for the American Jewish customers.

    It’s like reporting from ‘Al Jazeera English’, or ‘Russia Today’, and expecting it to reflect what the native audience is reading.

  469. songbird says:
    @Ali Choudhury

    Bernie Sanders was pretty weak and vacillating on the immigration issue. Many of his supporters were open border enthusiasts. On rhetoric, Hillary was a better choice on this one issue, but effectively he would have made no difference. Here is an excerpt from feelthebern.org:

    Bernie Sanders has said that we are a “nation of immigrants. That is, in fact, the strength of America.” Given this view, he believes the United States must create an immigration system that invites greater innovation, diversity, and economic opportunity for both American-born citizens and the people who want to make this land their home. Bernie supports immigration reform that will address the legal status of the 11 million undocumented people in our country, protect American jobs by way of visa reform, secure the border, and protect undocumented workers from labor exploitation.

    Path to Citizenship: We ought to provide a path to citizenship for people from many different countries.

    DREAM Act: Supports the path toward permanent residency for young, undocumented immigrants.

    Visa Reform: Reject the exploitation of workers and the use of visas for cheap, foreign labor. Increase opportunities for qualified individuals to take steps towards permanent residency.

    Border Security: We can and must secure borders without building a fence.

    Any platform that explicitly uses the word “diversity” is undeniably in favor of immigration. Meanwhile, the DREAM Act creates perverse incentives, which encourage people to break the law. If all children are welcome on principle – that is no different than Merkel. I don’t really see any will to enforce the law.

    As to the relative history of Jews in Christian lands vs. Muslim ones: in 1930, Ashkenazi were estimated to be 92% of world Jewry. Current estimate is 74-75%, but Jews are clearly not indigenous to Northern Europe. The DNA tells the story: after mixing somewhat with Southern Europeans, they arrived late into Northern Europe with a small starting population and multiplied fantastically. 10% average increase per generation over hundreds and hundreds of years – probably the most fruitful people in the historical period. And that is why they are practically all third cousins to each other.

    Jews were indigenous or rather pre-established in many MENA countries before the Islamic Conquest, but their presence there today is very low and diminishing. Perhaps, the difference is Europe is a more fertile land, but perhaps it is not that but something else. Clearly Muslim populations have grown fantastically in recent years, but seemingly not the Jews who were semi-indigenous to those lands.

  470. @Svigor

    It’s also a matter of numbers. Our demographics are much worse than Europe’s. Hence Euros on Frog Twitter making fun of us with their Le 56% memes.

    And if we fail there’s nothing to stop mohammedan and african immigration from taking off either, especially with lunatics in the the Cathedral outright calling for the abolition of ICE and sacralizing illegal aliens to the point of awarding them feudal privileges.

    A lot of our “luck” is also down to the harsh criminal justice system in America, which The Enemy wishes to dismantle because they worship criminals.

    We have some Somalis, and while bad they act out less than Somalis in Sweden. Why? Stuff like kidnapping and gang-raping a woman will get you a fifty year prison sentence in America. In some states capital punishment is a possibility.

    Street assault like is common in Europe is highly unusual here. Why? Because we have the right to pack serious firepower and kill people who assault us. And attacking someone on the street unprovoked is aggravated felony assault and battery. Ten year prison sentence.

    Notice how actually mohammedan countries don’t have problems with mass rape and assault and such, except for one where state power has collapsed. I don’t know what the penalty for rape is in Saudi Arabia, but I suspect it’s beheading by sword.

    The Enemy is now ranting and raving about “The Carceral State” and “Mass Incarceration Theory”. Philly elected a prosecutor whose stated goal is to convict all criminals with the minimum permissible legal sentence. They want to repeat what they did in the 60s, which allowed blacks to destroy city after city across the country.

    This, incidentally, is why I always say the real enemy is liberals. Not mohammedans, blacks, etc. who are just disorderly jerks. Liberals on the other hand are extremely formidable, and they fervently desire to destroy the entire world. The most evil people in the entire history of humanity.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
  471. Dmitry says:
    @Svigor

    It’s because the Soviet Union has worked to secularize them for generations.

    Nowadays, though, since the 1990s in e.g. Uzbekistan, there is radical Islam spreading.

  472. songbird says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    What I find so puzzling about Japan is the issue of formalism.

    To give one ex: elderly Japanese seem really bothered that the declaration of war did not arrive in Washington a minute before the attack on Pearl Harbor, but actually after the attack commenced. The idea of a surprise attack does not bother them, in the least.

    Similarly, and more to the issue: Japan takes in like 30 “refugees” every year. In a recent case, two of these (and Muslims) raped a Japanese woman. But they still take in more every year. The number is very low – not an existential danger – but why bother at all? Esp. in view of how troublesome the few they take in are.

    At one point, I tried to think of some strategic answer: maybe, they are gathering data, of criminality and school and economic performance, over a long span of time. Creating a loaded gun of rhetoric ready to shoot into the face of any movement to open the borders. But I believe that is just over-thinking it. It probably is just formalism – incomprehensible formalism.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    , @DFH
  473. @songbird

    Its basically formalism and probably some influence from Confucian mores to always seek a middle way(and never totally block off people).

  474. songbird says:

    Wow, thanks! That is quite interesting.

  475. AaronB says:
    @Thorfinnsson

    I can heartily recommend that you steep yourself in Japanese culture to discover the sources of its resilience and strength – not just it’s history. You will be surprised – it’s far more emotional and irrational than I suspect anyone here realizes, and everything I’ve been saying about spirituality and morality will become much clearer.

    This fact is rarely emphasized or even mentioned in the West – but Japan is a deeply moral culture – shockingly so to our harsh and degraded western sensibilities. I’ve been watching Japanese TV on Netflix – I have yet to find a show that does not have a deeply moral message (no, not enslave the blacks or create an Aryan surfer paradise in the Caribbean), and that does not celebrate courage, determination against odds, nobility, friendship, courtesy, and deep emotion of the kind we harsh and cold westerners would find ‘unmanly’ combined with a fierce masculinity that makes us look soft, and people bursting with individual character who are nevertheless united into an organic group.

    And this in 2018! It’s like the Middle Ages is still alive.

    As a first step we should back bowing to the West! – it’s a beautiful gesture and expresses a very touching reverence for others.

    I believe Japan can teach us to reconnect to our spiritual roots – which would be a reversal of roles.

    Learning from Japan and China now is essential to Westerners – get studying occidentals!

  476. Dmitry says:
    @Thorfinnsson

    Jews were indigenous or rather pre-established in many MENA countries before the Islamic Conquest, but their presence there today is very low and diminishing. Perhaps, the difference is Europe is a more fertile land, but perhaps it is not that but something else. Clearly Muslim populations have grown fantastically in recent years, but seemingly not the Jews who were semi-indigenous to those lands.

    The Mizrahi Jews (which is 60% of Jews in Israel) lived as dhimmis in the Middle East for centuries. A lot of hate Islam and Muslims – even the ones who identify with Arab language.

    The problem for Israel is that a secular elite, which has over-representation of European origin Jews, are often suicidally liberal (not ‘neoliberal’, but ‘hippy liberal’), and the demographic is overrepresented, totally controls the Supreme Court of Israel and the media apparatus (which has endless reports on the news to feel sorry for the African immigrants and Arabs).

    The usual complaint in Israel is ‘Ashkenazi’ people (Jews from European countries) have a very naive and hippy view to the Middle East. Which is true – many are tremendous liberals and leftists.

    -

    The kind of small elite that believe that sending kids of these kind of ‘peace camps’ (they have dozens of these) are going to solve the conflict.

    It’s actually a nice idea, but you are a complete hippy if you believe this is how wars are solved. Or that the Arabs will welcome you because you said some nice words.

    -

    Here by contrast is less pleasant attitude of working class Mizrahi hooligans (whose family had lived in the Middle East under Islamic rule), when a football team (which has many Christians), brings on board two Muslim players from Chechnya.

    They don’t care about players of other nationalities (negro players, european players, etc) – but when Muslims were brought into the team they went crazy and racist.

  477. Anon[198] • Disclaimer says:
    @AaronB

    I don’t see why you think Thorfinnsson disagrees with you.

    • Replies: @AaronB
  478. DFH says:
    @songbird

    The idea of a surprise attack does not bother them, in the least.

    tbf to them I think this might be the influence of their obsessive study of British naval strategy

    • Replies: @songbird
  479. AaronB says:
    @Anon

    Not entirely. But I’m not getting too much morality or deep emotion (unmasculine!) or appreciation for right brained thinking from Thor. I’m sure he agrees with some of what I said.

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
  480. songbird says:
    @DFH

    Interesting analysis. Wasn’t Port Arthur also a surprise attack? I’m pretty ignorant about British naval history.

  481. @AaronB

    I’d have to learn Japanese to do that. I hate foreign languages, not happening.

    Oriental writing is also extremely boring.

    And I don’t like video, so Japanese TV is straight out.

    I have yet to find a show that does not have a deeply moral message (no, not enslave the blacks or create an Aryan surfer paradise in the Caribbean)

    What could be more moral than a pan-Caribbean tropical aryan surfer paradise supported by slave labor?

    That is the society God commanded us to build.

    • Replies: @AaronB
    , @Yevardian
  482. songbird says:
    @AaronB

    I’ve been watching Japanese TV on Netflix – I have yet to find a show that does not have a deeply moral message

    I can’t speak to that observation personally, but I’ve wondered how different Hollywood would have been, if history had unfolded differently. What would it (and we) be like if the moral censorship had survived intact. What if it had been founded by East Asians? Or never been established on the West Coast? Or as a dominant, single location in the West? Lots of interesting possibilities…

    It seems quite odd to think of it, but I’ve seen how different Hispanic TV can be. Sometimes it seems quite terrible, but other times it seems clearly better. I think of the commercials esp: one shows a boy dreaming of a future where he is a firefighter and rescues a pretty lady. On the whole, they are much more masculine (sort of like with a paterfamilias), more willing to show a cross or faith. Our commercials, by contrast, are incredible pozzed. It seems like the majority are about miscegenation or feminism.

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    , @AaronB
  483. @AaronB

    Also see:

    1.4ish TFR in Japan. So not all is well.

    There’s nothing wrong in a low TFR in and of itself, and it might even be a good thing. But the fact that it is basically plummeting with no brakes, and can’t even seem to be raised to 1.8 or so(for a much steadier decline) is something that should be of concern.

    On the upside, the Japanese seem to have really gotten into Taoism lately.

    • Replies: @AaronB
    , @anonymous
  484. AaronB says:
    @Thorfinnsson

    No Japanese culture? Ah, well, we almost had you….

    You have a grand vision – a cause worth fighting and dying for. I think you’ve found just the thing to inspire today’s apathetic masses.

  485. @songbird

    The West Coast wasn’t the Left Coast until recently. Los Angeles used to be the WASPiest major city in the United States, and Southern California produced much of the conservative movement. Richard Nixon was from Yorba Linda, and though Ronald Reagan was an Illinois farmboy he made his career in California. California voted Republican in every postwar Presidential election through 1988 other than LBJ’s ’64 landslide.

    The loss of California to American civilization is a tragedy and catastrophe paralleled by events such as the Islamic Conquest of Spain.

    And despite Hollywood being founded by the Jews (mostly), it didn’t reach its present ideological orientation until the ’60s. Lots the early studio moguls, maybe most, were Republicans.

    A more amusing alternate history scenario: what if Howard Hughes had concentrated all his resources on Hollywood, rather than branching out into real estate developing, gaming, and aerospace?

    Howard Hughes muscles out the Jews, leading to Texan control of Hollywood which ultimately ends up owned by a not-for-profit charity devoted to medical research. :)

    • Replies: @songbird
    , @Dan Hayes
  486. AaronB says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    Japan in some ways ways has the modern disease, but I think it will find a way out before us – the interest in Taoism is a good example of slowly turning away from the West. I hear Japan is slowly losing interest in the West – a heartening sign – and things like golf which used to be popular aren’t anymore.

  487. AaronB says:
    @songbird

    For sure, but the censor itself is the expression of our values…the values go, so does the censor.

    Japan still teaches values in school – traditional values, directed by the government. Imagine if we did that.

    Mexican TV I’m sure also has a kind of freshness and innocence and idealism that we’ve lost – American TV is either cynical and psycopathic, or unbearably pozzed. No nourishment.

    Lots of European TV also good, btw.

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    , @Anon
  488. @AaronB

    https://bloodyshovel.wordpress.com/2018/05/05/making-japan-great-again/

    If Bloody Spandrell is to be believed the Japanese right is winning the culture war.

    They had better hurry as creeping immigration has gotten a lot worse this century, though fortunately domestic political pressure has prevented going full retard on this as South Korea has.

    I’ve also heard that Japan has no laws requiring mandatory child support payments, in which case perhaps the aryan surfer bodybuilders of the #BleachRight should conquer Japan with our sperm.

    Then we can use advanced Japanese technology and manufacturing to claim our Zion–the Caribbean.

    • LOL: AaronB
    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
  489. Anon[198] • Disclaimer says:
    @AaronB

    For sure, but

    Is this a Californism?

  490. songbird says:
    @Thorfinnsson

    Oddly, I was actually thinking of something like this the other day: Silicon Valley seems seriously pozzed. What if a guy like Ross Perot – a Texan who made a massive tech fortune headed Google? Would it still be pozzed?

    I am probably guilty of thinking of too many counterfactuals. Of course, Shockley who may be said to be the founding father of the valley was seriously based.

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
  491. @songbird

    It would not be pozzed if Perot ran it since he’s highly ideological and determined. As an example Perot in the 80s operated his own private foreign policy trying to rescue the POWs left behind in Vietnam by our criminal government.

    But it would be pozzed if, say, Warren Buffet owned it (which actually almost happened). The issue is entryism. Buffet would refuse to engage in censorship (if made aware of it), but wouldn’t take actions against SJW employees otherwise.

    Techies mostly lean libertarian (surprise). The issue is all the non-technical workers. Something really, really strange has happened to California culture in the past twenty years or so. White collar workers in California used to be completely normal.

    White liberals, particularly on the West Coast, are undergoing some really weird ethnogenesis into a separate nationality. This can be physically observed in their phenotype (Very Weak), speech (uptalking in men, high voice, passive tone), and mannerisms.

    It won’t happen under Trump, but this is yet another reason that the federal government should be actively trying to cause the total collapse of California. Fortunately the new tax bill helps with that. Sooner or later some tech billionaires will relocate to Austin now that you can’t deduct state and local taxes over $10k from your federal return anymore.

  492. @Unzerker

    The thin ones with short hair will have recently left prison. EDL is popular in gaol.

  493. Dan Hayes says:
    @Thorfinnsson

    Thorfinnsson:

    I wouldn’t put any credence on Texan big shots contributing to the counter-culture revolution. That all ceased with the demise of H L Hunt; only to be replaced by the likes of T Boone Pickens who have squandered their philanthropies by supporting college football neanderthals instead of supporting the counter-revolution.

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
  494. @Dan Hayes

    I just thought the idea of Howard Hughes controlling the movie business instead of the Jews is funny. I don’t disagree with you.

    Steve Sailer actually pointed out the problem of red state zillionaires squandering money on college football years ago.

    • Replies: @Dan Hayes
  495. @Thorfinnsson

    Historically, the Caribbean is the Zion of we Tropical Aryans. For centuries, we lived in paradise and ennobled and enriched ourselves through conquest and mastery of agriculture, navigation, commerce, and of course slavery.

    But the Jews had many debates about where to locate their Zionist project. Not all suggested Palestine.

    As a practical matter, perhaps we should pick the Philippines instead. The Philippines has many advantages over the Caribbean:

    • We can become vassals to China, whereas the USA won’t permit us to become vassals to them b/c holy negroes
    • Filipinos make for much more docile slaves than negroes
    • Filipina women are much more attractive than negresses, an important consideration for our bleaching program
    • While black women in the Caribbean like white men, filipina women LOVE white men (admittedly an irrelevant concern once our state has complete control and we’ve enslaved the entire population)
    • The Philippines has 100 million people compared to 40 million in the entire Caribbean
    • The Philippines is in Asia, the emerging center of the global economy
    • Geographically, the Philippines is nearer to many other island archipelagos than the Caribbean offering excellent opportunities for expansion
    • Fewer existing whites in the Philippines, eliminating the awkward question of what rights to grant conquered whites

    The biggest downside of establishing our kingdom in the Philippine archipelago is that it will be a much longer trip to the Norwegian coast for our wife raiding expeditions.

    Also, needless to say, we can’t begin our #BleachRight conquest as long as Rodrigo Duterte lives. A man of such immense power should not be challenged.

  496. Dan Hayes says:
    @Thorfinnsson

    Thorfinnsson,

    I’m not sure but it’s more than likely that I picked up the idea from Steve about “red state zillionaires squandering money on college football.”

    But it’s a real shame that some of these zillionaires don’t raid their petty cash boxes to support some of our impoverished worthies. For starters as deserving candidates I begin with vdare, Chronicles, the Fleming Foundation, etc.

    George Soros is the personification of evil but give the devil his due: he walks the walk!

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
  497. @Dan Hayes

    Signal boosting is good, but think on a grand scale.

    Notice how Bezos bought the Washington Post.

    You buy a prestige media outlet, then you move the dissident scribblers into that publication. In light of the target you would logically probably buy something like Breitbart, Daily Caller, etc. asmoving Steve Sailer and the gang into a publication like WaPo might just cause it to collapse. Who knows though…worth a shot.

    Then you would obviously want to find Wild Goose 999, the world’s most effective alt right activist. Cultivate and fund more people like him. The Identity Evropa guys are decent as well.

    Black knights should also be heavily funded. A provocations program similar to Rachkovsky’s in order to discredit the left.

    I can think of many other things which should be done as well, but won’t because these comms aren’t secure.

    • Agree: Dan Hayes
  498. Yevardian says:
    @Thorfinnsson

    For once I completely agree with you, Oriental literature appears to me to be almost entitling a series of proscriptive platitudes.

    LOL on California. “And nothing of value was lost.”

  499. @AaronB

    Sorry but I can say unequivocally that everything you wrote is wrong. Japanese TV is plain retarded. The only people that watch it are children and infantile individuals. There is no great life lessons to be drawn beyond the simple fact it would be more constructive of your time to do almost anything else.

    The Japanese are not a moral people. They are in fact the precise opposite of a moral people and you will be hard pressed to find a more godless and amoral people. The religious impulses that animate the Semites or Europeans and the quest for the spiritual sublime are rarely found among the Japanese. What you are mistaking for morality is actually something else entirely. It is the Japanese attachment towards ritual. Ritual devoid of purpose and shorn of belief still shapes human behavior just as well. It takes a certain degree of wilful ignorance to make it work but what animates the Japanese is the simple act of doing what everyone else doing for no other reason than they can’t remember having done anything else. This is the fundamental character difference between the Japanese and the Chinese. We are cynics and nihilist having realized the hollowness of the ritual, are no longer bound by propriety that the performance of it instill. The Japanese still have a almost childlike attachment to it.

    Beyond that there is nothing particularly too unique about the Japanese and you are beginning to sound like one of those useful idiots that the Japanese are fond of cultivating. The kind of insufferable prick who inserts random Japanese nouns into English sentences knowing full well that it will not be understood and there already being a perfectly adequate equivalent.

    • Replies: @Spisarevski
    , @utu
    , @AaronB
  500. @Ali Choudhury

    Stop this sanctimonious attitude.

    Most Muslims support ‘leftists’, because it is in their individual and group interest, either implicitly or explicitly, to support them, not because they altruistically care so much for a ‘morally just society where care of the poor, sick and unfortunate’ is considered important.

    In a way Jews asking ‘is it good for the Jews?’ is a lot more honest than this Muslim attitude where doing ‘the right thing’ just so happens to always further Muslim communitarian interests at the expense of other groups.

    It is this kind of attitude that furthers people’s belief that Muslims are dishonest.

    • Replies: @Ali Choudhury
  501. @Hyperborean

    Well sure, a more redistributive society would be of benefit to most Muslims who tend to be poorer and more likely jobless and on welfare. However the attitude is shared by Muslims who are wealthy and would be hammered by higher taxes. They generally favour a more communitarian society. That is what the Muslims of my experience want. What the Muslims of Russia want is unknown to me.

    Another attraction of Corbyn and Sanders is that they seem the least likely politicians to authorise military action against Muslim countries which is a big vote-winner.

  502. @Duke of Qin

    What this really means is that the Shia are in effect legitimists and beholden to natural order and hierarchy. The Supreme Ayatollah is the law of the land in Iran and you cannot exceed him theologically, and he more critically serves as a firebreak to radicalism because trying to out holy him gets you beheaded. It is also the reason why King, Church, and Pope were so necessary for the proper functioning of Europe until that devil Luther came along.

    How do you explain Catholicism and Orthodox Christianity then, the latter being much more chill historically even though it’s less hierarchical?
    It’s the Catholics who had inquisitions and crusades against other Christians, and if you read what the Spanish Catholics did to the Incas and the Mayas, they were pretty much exactly like ISIS.

    • Replies: @Duke of Qin
    , @Yevardian
  503. @Duke of Qin

    I generally like your posts but this is one of the worst posts ever written on this site, or in general.
    As a Han racialist it doesn’t make sense to hate your cousins like this, so my only guess is strong historical butthurt – which is understandable, but you are not being objective.

    Modern Japanese culture is superior to the Chinese one. There can’t even be a comparison.
    I don’t know how much of that is genetic and how much (probably a big part) is due to the fact that the Japanese have free speech and can truly unleash their creative spirits, while the Chinese can’t. But the end result is undisputable.

    If we take movies for example, you are only making martial arts ones, movies about the evil japanese occupation, or a mix of the two. And romantic dramas every bit as dull as the ones in Japan, Korea or elsewhere. And patriotic action movies like “Wolf Warrior 2″ which basically show you in a “wannabe America” light.
    Japanese, on the other hand, besides the compelling stories, are also known for their originality and sense of humor. Saying that “there is nothing particularly too unique about the Japanese” is absurd.
    I have long stopped watching hollywood movies but I still watch anime as it is pretty much the only medium left where one can reliably watch new things that are original and simply fun to watch.

    There is a reason why people who watch anime watch Japanese animation in particular (even though the term in Japan means “animation” in general, from any country), and not that of any other country – like China for example, which produces animations that copy the aesthetics of the Japanese ones, but story wise are simply bland and uninspired. The Japanese anime is simply not like anything else.
    They also have plenty of cult classics among their live action moves – they do have competition there, as Koreans have also produced some cult movies like “Oldboy” for example, but I can’t think of any Chinese one that is not related to martial arts.

    • Replies: @Duke of Qin
    , @Daniel Chieh
  504. utu says:
    @Duke of Qin

    We are cynics and nihilist

    You are not. Cynics do not hate and cynics can control themselves better than you. You are like the Japanese of you mind: “with childlike attachment” to beliefs from the past that deep down you are embarrassed by but you can’t help yourself.

    Anyway it is interesting to read your childlike projections on other cultures because there is some childlike truth in them. Japanese and Chinese are very different but both interesting to me. Each different way. Can be admired for some things and can be loathed for others . It depends on time of the day, weather and mood.

    • Replies: @Duke of Qin
  505. Svigor says:
    @Ali Choudhury

    East Asian foreign labor. It’s like the Poles allowing in Ukrainian immigrants, but not Africans or West Asians. I’m the resident hard-core WN, and I don’t mind Poles allowing in Ukrainian immigrants. It’s not ideal, but it’s such a small genetic shift that it’s not worth getting upset about, given Whites’ current plight.

  506. Mitleser says:

    Houellebecq is the French_reader.

  507. @Spisarevski

    The root of your ignorance of the subject could not be any clearer. It is precisely because you don’t know anything about about the Japanese and draw your ideas singularly from children’s cartoons and mass entertainment that you are so gullible. Are you very young?

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  508. @utu

    Don’t play stupid semantic games. You understand full well I am using cynicism in the normal usage of the word rather than some Greek abstract.

    The “innocent” nature of the Japanese isn’t a projection but rather a long held historic observation that is no longer popular because liberalism eschews essentialism. That and over the past century Western society has itself become so infantilized that most Westerners no longer understand when Childishness should end.

  509. @Spisarevski

    Almost everything you think you know about the counter reformation is flat out enlightenment fiction or Protestant slander. I say this not as a Catholic apologist since I am not even a Christian but I would advise turning the same critical eye that one does to modern “narrative” constructing media and look who is writing the narrative of the Catholic Church and whether it can be trusted.

    • Agree: utu
    • Replies: @Corvinus
  510. AaronB says:
    @Duke of Qin

    My impressions of Japanese culture also comes from reading their literature and poetry, having spent time in their country. TV is minor – I just think most modern Americans can easily connect through TV, which to my surprise I found not as degraded as American TV, even sometimes shockingly pure and innocent.

    Ritual is very important btw, we need to re-introduce it in the West. It goes straight to the non-rational part of the brain – habitual bowing, habitual courtesy, affects your attitude to the world in subliminal ways. The bow in particular expresses a reverence we can no longer feel in the West. The loss of ritual in the West is not minor.

    Look, I realize as a Chinese you have a rivalry with Japan – I understand that. Daniel Chieh seems more broadminded on this issue, but it can’t be expected of everyone. The Japanese in the early 20th century – when they were aping westerners – are far from my ideal. I also love traditional Chinese culture, and think we can learn much from it as well. Although I think modern China has experienced substantial cultural degradation, and is in danger of becoming just another and worse America, I think there is still a kernel of health in China and there is cause for hope.

    I don’t think you’re completely cynical and nihilistic, as then you’d be apathetic and blase like modern Europeans, and not incredibly enthusiastic and motivated as you are now – I think there is much cynicism and nihilism, and that the furious quest for wealth and dominance is the afterglow of a religious sensibility which may fade to the apathetic level of Europeans after the initial burst of activity, but you may also recover health. We shall see.

    • Replies: @Duke of Qin
  511. Dmitry says:

    A lot of our impression of Chinese, from travelling outside China, is probably just difference in economic status, on per capita level, between countries.

    The whole world is getting flooded by vast quantities of poor (or newly rich) proletariat from China. The numbers are so many. And the impression is often of noisy lower class people of a newly industrialized country, even when they are rich students. Often they are also coming as construction workers or in small shops (as in Western Europe).

    By comparison, Japanese are in smaller numbers, in higher economic status, and usually travelling for only leisure or higher level business as part of multinational companies. They are dressed in expensive clothes (for example, many of the young Japanese tourists in London) and represent a mature bourgeoisie.

    And sure, the current differential must be embarrassing for Chinese – who had the older and more noble and Ancient civilization than Japan, to be currently in lower per capita status. But – it’s like a difference between Russia and Norway at the moment.

  512. Corvinus says:
    @Duke of Qin

    “I think it’s a matter of selection bias. The majority of bourgeois White American contact with Mexicans is through the quiet working help, which leads to an exaggerated sense of Mexican inoffensiveness and placid natures.”

    There is no exaggeration here. Consider El Paso, Texas which sits opposite the Rio Grande river from Ciudad Juarez, an extremely violent city in Mexico. The vast majority of citizens from El Paso are of Mexican origin. A large population of El Paso’s Hispanic population are immigrants. El Paso is one of the safest cities in the United States with a homicide rate of 2.4 per 100,000 residents.

    “The arrest statistics in California speak for themselves. Mexicans are more violent and prone to criminality than even prole whites.”

    Depends upon if it is first, second, and third generation. And then there is this little nugget.

    http://www.politifact.com/california/statements/2017/aug/03/antonio-villaraigosa/mostly-true-undocumented-immigrants-less-likely-co/

    “They may not be a threat to you because of geographic, social, and biological distance.

    No, generally speaking Mexicans fit the description given by Aaron B.

  513. @AaronB

    Hah you are a smart individual. You know it, I know it, but you aren’t reading Japanese literature or poetry, I think we can dispense with any pretenses here (this is my cynical nature manifesting itself). Besides why would you bother, it is boring and this isn’t because I dislike the Japanese, because I can unequivocally say that all modern Chinese literature is shit and I’m fairly confident that all Western literature now is shit because modernity is a shitty tableau for writers to draw lessons from reality to incorporate into their fiction.

    Yes, I am glad you see my point on the importance of ritual and its purpose in priming the human mind in hard to quantify ways. It’s what makes Judaism and Islam cohesive because their religions are filled to the brim with otherwise pointless, effort expending rituals that are designed to force particular types of behaviors. Not everyone needs this type of reinforcement but most people do, especially the dimmer proles. Yet for the Jews and Mohammedans it isn’t quite so pointless because they can point and say god demands it of them and I suspect believe it too and thus they do it. There is no inner force to the Japanese rituals and I suspect if there ever has been, it has long been lost. The Chinese need both ritual AND belief. The inherent cynicism of our society precludes the former without the latter.

    It isn’t rivalry that that guides my skepticism of the Japanese but rather the recognition that they too have failed in their resistance to Modernity and the manner and degree of their failure isn’t very obvious to most sympathetic Western observers because their disgust with their own society leads them to not be able to fully comprehend the limitations of both the Chinese and especially the Japanese . The societies that are heathiest and the Chinese and Europeans too I guess would do well to emulate and learn from are actually those that I actively dislike; Jews, Mohammedans, and the more dysfunctional variety of Hindu.

    • Replies: @DFH
    , @AaronB
    , @utu
  514. Corvinus says:
    @Duke of Qin

    No, the Spanish Inquisition and the methods employed, along with European treatment of natives from the New World, is not “enlightenment fiction” or “Protestant slander”.

    • Replies: @Duke of Qin
  515. DFH says:
    @Duke of Qin

    Besides why would you bother, it is boring

    Kawabata is good, Mishima and Tanizaki are ok

  516. @Corvinus

    Broke: Booohooo the Spanish inquisition was a Catholic massacre of innocent victims, particularly Jews and Muslims, and showed how bloodthirsty European Christians via their superstitious, ignorant and backwards behavior.

    Woke: The Spanish inquisition was a necessary political cleansing of crypto Jewish influence at the Royal Court, the Church, and elsewhere in Spanish society that was designed to root out an actively subversive element that was attempting to to “Judaize” Spain as John Chrysostom would put it.

    Regarding the Americas, the policy of the Spanish Court nor the Church was never to let the hot blooded Hidalgos run amuck in the Americas. It was simply the tyranny of distance that made enforcing civilized behavior difficult. There are numerous instances of Church criticism of atrocities and even Charles V wrote explicitly condeming it but it had little effect because the kind of men that ended up going to the New World were not the kind of men that are compelled to follow the letter of the law.

    • Replies: @Corvinus
  517. @Duke of Qin

    Cynicism and nihilism are not positive qualities and if the Chinese truly only wanted that, then Jiang Zemin would have the Mandate of Heaven, not Xi Jinping. The Japanese can be profoundly hypocritical and annoying, but there’s no denying that their vision, despite often based on irrational emotionality, is overall more appealing.

  518. AaronB says:
    @Duke of Qin

    I hope you don’t think I am suggesting I read Japanese literature in Japanese – I don’t know Japanese, but I do read quite a bit in translation. I love nature poetry, and I find a poet like Ryokan deeply moving. I read him with inexhaustible delight, although I suspect most westerners would indeed find him boring – but we are oversrimulated with sensationalist trash.

    But maybe you only meant modern Japanese literature – in that case you may be right, the only modern Japanese I read is of course Murakami, who is very uneven but at his best fantastic. You are certainly right that all modern Western literature is trash – and I will take your word about Chinese.

    I am glad you see the power of ritual – this cannot be emphasized enough!

    Yes, Japan has also contracted the modern disease – no one has been spared. But to my amazement, I found a core of glowing good health that was completely unexpected. Somehow, defying all expectations, something pure has managed to survive. But the Japanese are not a fully healthy people. And yet, with power politics behind them, they may be the first to lead the way to a post-modern recovery of health among wealthy nations.

    I agree – there is much to learn from Jews, Muslims, and Hindus, although Jews are beginning their slide into decline. I stress this angle all the time. But the Japanese are fully developed and modern and leaders in advanced technology – so it is peculiarly powerful for Westerners to learn of just how archaic and non-logical and emotional the Japanese are, exploding our assumptions about modernity and the sources of resilience and strength.

    • Replies: @DFH
  519. @utu

    Okay, but besides having no evidence whatsoever, you haven’t even given a plausible mechanism through which Israel (or really, anyone else) could have influenced the course and outcome of the Islamic Revolution. So what is the mechanism through which Israel managed to influence the course and outcome of the Islamic Revolution?

    • Replies: @utu
    , @Art Deco
  520. utu says:
    @Duke of Qin

    The societies that are heathiest and the Chinese and Europeans too I guess would do well to emulate and learn from are actually those that I actively dislike; Jews, Mohammedans, and the more dysfunctional variety of Hindu.

    What would you like Chinese to learn from them?

    • Replies: @Duke of Qin
  521. @Spisarevski

    The Japanese are capable of reconciling profound contradictions without any real concern for rationality: the highly honorable people who launch surprise attacks, for one pretty funny example. Its not that they lack rationality, but they seem to consider it optional in a way that most advanced cultures do not.

    This is also why their creative product is substantial, I feel. Within their artistic circles, the sheer quantity of derivative crap produced is almost unimaginable, but there is still that much energy for it and the effective result of not having to worry too much about rationality is how they can produce things such as mecha stories: mecha are ridiculous and completely irrational, but it bothers their creators not at all to expend huge amounts of energy to suspend disbelief and go on from there.

    As I’ve noted before, I have my doubts that everything is working out for them with 1.4 TFR and the mental solutions often being a form of completely retreat from reality. From an artistic and romantic standpoint, though, I think it is definitely more productive. The materialism among the Chinese annoys me and I think it is fundamentally toxic; I’ve known people who were, for example, scientifically talented but were unable to pursue their dreams(in North Beijing University, for all things!) to research, because the zeitgeist there forced them to basically enter the industry for more profitable jobs. I do not think this is positive for advancement, for example, to crush such passions in the service of Mammon. The American equivalent would be your family heckling and driving you to stop researching particle physics in MIT, because you’ll make a bit more money working for Microsoft.

    I am hopeful that this is changing.

    • Replies: @AaronB
    , @songbird
    , @AaronB
  522. DFH says:
    @AaronB

    But the Japanese are one of the most atheistic societies on earth – so how does this fit wit your thesis?

    • Replies: @AaronB
  523. AaronB says:
    @DFH

    They are a deeply non-atheist people – that’s what I discovered to my shock.

    Don’t believe MSM nonsense. Go explore for yourself.

  524. @utu

    The rule of nature, unlike the norms of men, cares nothing about truth, status, wealth, or beauty. It cares only for survival. Societies can be dysfunctional, rulers can be cruel and capricious, the individual can be cowardly and avaricious. All of that is irrelevant in the face of the only question that matters, do you have enough children and is their identity cohesive enough that it will not see them dissipated in the winds of modernity. The aforementioned peoples have all found answers to that. We haven’t, so the people to go inquiring for answers should not be those who are clinging to their dutch wives under a digital bliss as they slowly descend into oblivion.

    Perhaps Houellebecq has the right idea, despite how unpalatable it is. Convert to fundamentalist Islam and then seize control of the religion from the Arabs via natural superiority.

    • Replies: @utu
  525. utu says:
    @Duke of Qin

    The rule of nature, unlike the norms of men, cares nothing about truth, status, wealth, or beauty. It cares only for survival.

    I like your comments though always feared that under your eloquence and erudition one may find something weird. And it just happened. You are a kook.

    Nature is incapable of caring. Even for survival. But you do. Why do you want Chinese to survive? Do they have some biological uniqueness that is worth preserving? You do not care about anything else except for biology because you are Mr. Nature, right? You do not mind them becoming Muslims or Jehovah Witnesses and changing language to Swahili as long as they survive biologically. I am trying to imagine 2 billions of Chinese looking Swahili speaking Muslims. Anyway, you may get High Five form Mother Nature.

    Have you considered animal husbandry? You may have a knack for breeding dogs or race horses. Or chickens. It is easy to breed chickens by thousands. Damn, we have just missed the year of the rooster.

    • LOL: Daniel Chieh
    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  526. utu says:
    @reiner Tor

    So what is the mechanism through which Israel managed to influence the course and outcome of the Islamic Revolution?

    If I knew that I would write a book about it instead suffering a conversation with an insolent Hungarian. The answer is simple. You know it yourself. Your stupidity is feigned.

    First you can’t do something out of nothing. There has to be a ferment first but then you can add yeast and sugar and shake it. It takes very few people positioned in right palaces. Few provocations here and there. Police brutality always helps.

    Iran was thoroughly penetrated by Israelis and Israeli assets because they were doing a lot of business in Iran. Including with military and security forces.

    Then you can kill somebody to change the course or may let somebody live to accomplish even more.

    Mossad was approached by Iranians to have Khomeini assassinated when he was still in Paris but they refused.

    Israel considered request to kill Khomeini, says former Mossad agent

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/iran-blog/2015/jun/05/mossad-assassination-irans-khomeini-says-israel-agent

  527. songbird says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    Regarding mecha, for all their ridiculousness, what I think people find so appealing about them is the personal element. A giant robotic-suit still has the basic outline of a man. It constantly reminds you that a man is supposed to be inside it. Generally, a single man – not a squad or group. There is still a heroic element, despite the technology. It is a kind of reminder that heroism continues and isn’t lost to the distant ages.

    As far as the Japanese fertility rate goes: of course it is troubling, but it seems to me it is mostly a matter of will. A very easy matter, in fact, compared to the West. I believe there will come a day when the shrinking population becomes undeniable – that most of the Japanese public and leadership will really internalize it. If the leadership only has the discipline to maintain the borders, it is inevitable that they will rebound. One of my grandfathers was one of 16 children, all with the same parents. That sort sort of potential fertility is probably inherent to most young people.

  528. Art Deco says:
    @reiner Tor

    Asking for a transcript of what the voices in his head are telling him might prove to be an hour out of your life.

    • Replies: @Anon
  529. @AaronB

    I agree with what you say. I am simply not wired that way, other than my love of greatness.

    But that might not be a problem. After all, our ancestors developed a three class model. Those who fought, those who prayed, and those who worked.

    I will give myself to mystical thinking on occasion for fun. For instance, after the Chicago Cubs won the World Series I declared that this was proof that Donald Trump would win the election.

    My deep emotion expresses itself in love of family and country. The latter is not abstract either, but simply loving where I am from and who I am descended from.

    Religion to me is clearly just a bunch of made up gibberish, but it’s who we are and the idea we can move past it or suppress it is absurd. So the goal is to harness religion to appropriate ends.

    • Replies: @AaronB
  530. @utu

    Something without this, presumably.

  531. AaronB says:
    @Thorfinnsson

    It takes all types to make a world. Traditionally, the “ruler” types – at least many of them – supported religion because they understood its crucial importance in maintaining order and building a strong identity, but also creating morale and motivation through devotion and piety and works of beauty and poetry.

    Strangely, this traditional pact between practical administrative types, or perhaps warrior-administrator types -capable but blunt intellects – and the more sensitive religious and artistic types, crucial for developing and maintaining morale, has broken down in modern times. The Enlightenment was an own goal. It’s also why for Jews the first order of business was to relentlessly attack Christianity – they well understood the crack appearing in your armor, and directed all their sword thrusts at it.

    I would say however that you are more religious than you realize – that you love family and country, and your ancestors, reveals a sensibility more religious by far than most modern people, and implies a metaphysics that would horrify you if you could take time out of your practical-administrative-knightly concerns to understand it’s full mystical dimension :) Not that you should. To each his sphere.

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
  532. Bliss says:
    @AaronB

    I believe Japan can teach us to reconnect to our spiritual roots – which would be a reversal of roles.

    Surely you are trolling. A few hours earlier it was Islam, now it’s Japan. What do these two have in common?

    Japan is even more atheistic and materialistic than Europe. Whatever little religion is left there is superficial ritualism, fakery or photo opportunity.

    Perhaps it’s the fakery that attracts you? For you sure don’t seem too interested in spiritual truths. Just as you are attracted to pre-Enlightenment ignorant mystery about the world of Matter-Energy and repelled by Science and Reason.

    My diagnosis of your despair: you are a coward who is afraid to face Truth.

    • Replies: @Anon
    , @AaronB
  533. AaronB says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    To expand on this, I was reading yesterday the very short Diamond Sutra – central in Japanese Zen and Chinese Chan (respective national version of the same Buddhist philosophy) and again and again you have the lines ” the Boddhisattva commits to saving all beings” immediately followed by “and yet he is a Boddhisattva because he does not believe any beings exist” and the more cryptic and paradoxical “form is emptiness, emptinness is form” from the even briefer but equally central Heart Sutra.

    It is a veritable training in cognitive dissonance, the downgrading of logic as proximate, and the effortless movement between “levels” of reality, with ultimate reality being utterly beyond mere logic. Mahayana Buddhism creates a love of fantasy and imagination which we see so well in the Japanese.

    Contrast this with Aristotle, who established two limiting and false rules that became the foundation of Western thought – the law of the excluded middle (a proposition is either true or false, no third option. Buddhist philosophy of course maintains a proposition can be neither, and modern logic has caught up with this), and the law of non-contradiction, which has been refuted in the West as early as Kant, if not earlier.

    (Consider Russel ‘s Paradox – the great Bertrand Russell – regarding logical sets “the set of all sets that are not members of themselves “. If it is a member of itself, then it isnt. But if it isn’t, then it is. Goodbye law of non-contradiction!)

    Jews also btw relegate logic to a proximate contextual realm and the Talmud is a training in contempt for logic through a very strange use of logic, and Jewish law is rife with contradictory rulings which are both accepted – a training in cognitive dissonance and the ability to move between levels of reality.

    The centrality of logic to the Western mind has been it’s strength and weakness, but ultimately it made the West too simple and stupid, if powerful, and destroyed it – a return to healthy does not mean abandoning logic, but subordination to its properly limited sphere.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
  534. Anon[181] • Disclaimer says:
    @Bliss

    Ouch! Never mind him, he reads like someone who loves to hear himself talk, and baits better people into reacting.

  535. @AaronB

    I’ll retain you as a consultant when we establish the Tropical Aryan Surfer Kingdom. My understanding is that you are not one of us, but you can draw a good salary and enjoy the slave girls.

    • Replies: @AaronB
  536. @AaronB

    IIRC the Kaballah relegated the physical world, Malkuth, as the lowest/final form of expression from the higher spiritual and mental realms; therefore something could prosaically be untrue in in the material world yet find expression in a “higher” realm and find its revelation in ambiguity on the material world. And though being the lowest of the kingdoms, it also holds the secret to reaching the highest and lessons are to be drawn from above and below: Kether is in Malkuth, and Malkuth is in Kether.

    Logic could only be highly abstract when for example, dragons can be literal, non-literal, metaphoric, spiritual and/or all of the above true at the same time.

    • Replies: @AaronB
  537. AaronB says:
    @Bliss

    But I am a devotee of Truth – which logic shows cannot be captured in words or the categories of our mind, which apply only to the practical realm.

    So Reason and Truth – if we are truly their disciples – show us connecting to Truth means accepting Mystery.

    You are not interested in Truth – but in dogmatic affirmations. Next you will tell me materialism is “true” :)

    • Replies: @Bliss
  538. AaronB says:
    @Thorfinnsson

    That is all I ask. Thank you.

  539. AaronB says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    Exactly. Well said.

    We have lost this kind of mental agility in the materialistic modern West. We can no longer think “multi-dimensionally” – which incidentally accounts for a lot of the stupidity on IQ.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    , @Yevardian
  540. @AaronB

    Certainly makes for boring fiction, anyway, and a society increasingly dedicated to dopamine hits, if nothing else. This has been an interesting thread, thanks.

    • Replies: @AaronB
  541. AaronB says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    Yes, it has. And thanks to you as well.

    (Very nice Chinese music btw. I enjoyed)

  542. anonymous[244] • Disclaimer says:
    @Daniel Chieh

    There’s nothing wrong in a low TFR in and of itself, and it might even be a good thing. But the fact that it is basically plummeting with no brakes,

    Not quite. Japan’s TFR has increased from a low of 1.26 in 2005, to 1.44 now, and it is actually higher than all other developed East Asian nations (HK at 1.2, Macau at 1.31, Singapore at 1.2, and Taiwan at 1.2, and S. Korea at 1.17) according to world bank. The main difference between these countries and Japan is that Japan entered this phase of development before the others (Japan’s 1955-1960 fertility rate was already 2.08), and because of this, they are now further along the path.

    If low fertility affects all of the developed countries in a region, then it is likely there is a much larger general cultural or circumstantial reason for it. Even China’s fertility rate is in a similar situation, with very large regions of China having a low TFR:

    https://www.economist.com/china/2017/09/21/chinas-demographic-divisions-are-getting-deeper

    1. Areas of ultra-low fertility (rates of less than 1). These are three mega-cities, Beijing, Shanghai and Tianjin, and three provinces in the north-east, sometimes called Manchuria, where the one-child policy was applied most strictly. They have a total population of 170m.

    2. Areas where fertility is between 1 and 1.29. These include provinces on China’s populous coastline, as well as the huge Sichuan basin in western China. They are overwhelmingly Han areas, so had few exceptions to the one-child policy. They were also the places where China’s growth and urbanisation took off quickest after 1980, so have relatively few rural dwellers. This is the largest category, with 600m people.

    And China still has yet to reached the same level of development as the others. Despite this, Chinese (and Koreans) don’t seem particularly concerned about this on a day to day basis. Latin American and muslim countries have also seen massive declines in fertility rates as they have become more developed.

  543. Moving beyond AaronB’s religion, there is also love.

    Love of family.

    Love of friends.

    Love of country.

    These comms aren’t secure, so I won’t discuss my family in detail. But suffice to say I am the legitimate heir in a family business and come from a distinguished line of officers, executives, statesmen, etc. All completely Swedish, no disgusting miscegenation. And I will always cherish the two hour breakfasts I enjoyed with my paternal grandmother every morning in my 20s whenever I visited the heimat.

    Love of friends–build the brotherhood. I have a group of men who will die for me, and vice-a-versa.

    Love of country, some musical examples below:

    Battle Hymn of the Republic

    British Grenadiers

    Non-martial things as well, such as the 1980 American victory over the Soviet team in the Winter Olympics. Do you believe in miracles?

    Or, for instance, the moon landing.

    Yes we need our statistics and our HBD, but ultimately we need love and pride. Love of our own people, and pride in our glorious history and glorious future (if we save ourselves). A transcendent ethos rather than a dull focus on differential rates in crime and achievement.

    AaronB is now officially my Court Jew and consigliere.

    • Replies: @songbird
    , @AaronB
  544. Bliss says:
    @AaronB

    But I am a devotee of Truth

    No you are not. Anyone who goes from Buddhism to Islam and Shintoism is not seeking Truth.

    So Reason and Truth – if we are truly their disciples – show us connecting to Truth means accepting Mystery.

    Truth is beyond Reason but that does not mean Reason is the enemy of Truth. Through Reason we realize that the world is illusory and not worth clinging to.

  545. Yevardian says:
    @Spisarevski

    Uh, the Jesuits and other Catholic orders generally protected the native population from the depredations of the Conquistadors. They even translated the bible into Nahuatl and created grammars for language, along with preserving Aztec codexes for posterity, whilst the Pope declared a bill protecting natives (who had converted), not that it had much of an affect across the atlantic.

    • Agree: Dan Hayes
    • Replies: @utu
  546. Yevardian says:
    @AaronB

    Stop, stop, your pseudo-philosophical Israel-Shamir-wannabe pontificating is getting even more irritating than Thorfinnson’s r_TheDonald-tier American-triumphalist shitposting.

  547. Corvinus says:
    @Duke of Qin

    “Woke…”

    No, that would be massacre.

    “The Spanish inquisition was a necessary political cleansing…”

    Would you find it necessary had your ancestors been slaughtered due to alleged religious malfeasance?

    “Regarding the Americas, the policy of the Spanish Court nor the Church was never to let the hot blooded Hidalgos run amuck in the Americas.”

    This statement is indicative of the “Invade The World, Invite The World” mantra of Europeans. And we today see the price being paid for such short-sightedness. Of course, the Spanish imposed their will by way of jackbooting. It would seem you a fan of “might makes right”/

    “It was simply the tyranny of distance that made enforcing civilized behavior difficult.”

    Actually, it was uncivilized for one group of people to destroy another group’s culture merely “in the name of God” and for resource exploitation.

    “but it had little effect because the kind of men that ended up going to the New World were not the kind of men that are compelled to follow the letter of the law.”

    You are correct here. It is in-born for Europeans to violent take what they want when they want. You know, free stuff and gimmedats.

    • Replies: @utu
  548. utu says:
    @Yevardian

    http://www.recorder.com/Archives/2015/11/Ae-BoliivianMusicGuilfordFEAT-GR-120315

    Fr. Piotr Nawrot, who is also a musicologist, was convinced in the 1970s that the remnants of Baroque musical manuscripts brought to the jungles of the New World by Jesuit missionaries beginning in the 1670s had been hidden by the native tribes.

    What he discovered over time were 8,000 pages of manuscripts, many composed by converted South American musicians themselves, in the style of Vivaldi and Corelli but also steeped in the cultures of the Chiquitos and Moxos provinces of eastern Bolivia.

    Over time, Nawrot reconstructed the manuscripts, which had been written in the hands of ordinary people who had stored them in simple boxes alongside precious heirlooms.

    http://www.panamzone.net/net/en/our-mission/222-pedro-nawrot-musicologist-missionary.html

    Discovering the manuscripts in the Chiquitos and Moxos Missions, in the wild region of Santa Cruz (Bolivia), was a worldwide event. They were amazing collections. The largest, 5,500 pages of baroque music, written or arranged by the Natives living in those “Reducciones”, came from the old mission of Chiquitos, which, in that period, was part of the Province of Paraguay. Such collection includes over 40 polyphonic masses, operas, sonatas, instrumental music —music for what it is called the ‘liturgical year’— and other concertos for different situations. Apart from the beauty of those compositions, what is more interesting is that the Natives incorporated lyrics in their own original languages. That was the missionaries’ method: they did not impose the Spanish language; instead they predicated the new religion using the language of Native tribes. Another collection, over 4,000 pages of music, was found in the Moxos’s reducción, which was part of the Province of Peru. This collection, mostly sacred music, was also composed frequently by converted Indian-americans belonging to music groups. In fact, each mission included between 30 and 40 professional musicians playing during daily masses.

    • Replies: @Yevardian
  549. There was also that guy though

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diego_de_Landa

    who had all the Maya codices he could find burned.
    Granted, he also did write a valuable ethnographic work about the Maya, and probably had good reason to view some of the Maya’s customs as demonic.
    But still, destroying manuscripts in the only known Amerindian script was an act of appalling cultural vandalism.

    • Replies: @utu
  550. utu says:
    @Corvinus

    Why don’t you educate yourself, Corvinus? Aren’t you curious? Is it really that comfortable in the prison of your ignorance and prejudices?

    Duke of Qin is absolutely right about Catholics, Jesuits and Inquisition. All what you know is slander and Protestant (Dutch and British) propaganda.

    • Agree: AP
  551. dfordoom says: • Website
    @Randal

    Here we disagree, because of my own bias as a social conservative and in favour of religion. I don’t think secularisation is necessary or constructive, and I think small amounts of it as you suggest are just destabilising, creating demand for further secularisation and weakening the resistance to those demands.

    Yes, you’re spot on. You can’t have just a little bit of secularisation. Once you go down the path of secularisation you must follow it to the end and what you finish up with is the sewer that is the modern West.

    • Replies: @utu
  552. utu says:
    @German_reader

    And there was this guy:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bartolomé_de_las_Casas
    Traveling back to Spain to recruit more missionaries, he continued lobbying for the abolition of the encomienda, gaining an important victory by the passing of the New Laws in 1542. He was appointed Bishop of Chiapas, but served only for a short time before he was forced to return to Spain because of resistance to the New Laws by the encomenderos, and c