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The 20 Theses of Ukrainian Nationalism

ukronationalists

On March 16, the three main political forces of Ukrainian nationalism – the political party Svoboda, Right Sector, and the National Corpus (i.e. the Azov batallion’s political wing) – signed a National Manifesto that declared the ideological unity of the three structures, and conveniently summarized the 20 key theses of Ukrainian nationalism.

Given the increasingly evident political bankruptcy of the Poroshenko government, its increasing readiness to capitulate before nationalist demands, and the even greater influence Ukrainian nationalism looks set to wield over the regime that comes next, it would be germane to give a brief translation and analysis of the main points of this National Manifesto.

***

We, Ukrainian nationalists, understanding the catastrophic state of our country and with the goal of acquiring and developing a great national state, capable of securing the prosperous existence of Ukrainians and a future for Ukrainian children, are uniting our efforts on the basis of fundamental, unambiguous, and unchanging principles and goals, and thereby offer a concrete plan of action that we can embark upon straight away for the achievement of these goals.

Not bad, though the pilfering from David Lane is a bit too obvious.

1. Define as a priority of state policy the realization of Ukraine’s national interests.

As the Russian nationalist website Sputnik i Pogrom notes, there is no division between Ukraine the state and Ukrainians the people.

This is typical for semi-fictional national projects, in which there is no people without a state.

2. New vector of Ukrainian geopolitics – orientation not to the West or the East, but the creation of a new European unity – that of the Balto-Black Sea Union.

So basically a resurrection of the Intermarium, a geopolitical vision promoted by interwar Polish leader Józef Piłsudski to unite the countries from the Baltic Sea to the Mediterranean.

Today, it has mainly become a Ukrainian nationalist obsession.

It also happens to be even more demented and schizophrenic than Eurasianism (which is at least theoretically realizable, even if its end result will be to turn Russia into Greater Turkestan due to demographic factors).

Ukraine, with a nominal GDP per capita below that of Nigeria, will be economically dominated by Poland in any such arrangement. Furthermore, the Poles have no love for Ukrainian nationalists; there are numerous human interest stories of Ukrainian Gastarbeiters in Poland getting beaten up by Polish skinheads for expressing their love for Bandera. Speaking of Polish nationalists, they outright want Lwow back.

As such, it is unclear how such a neo-Rzeczpospolita union would even be set up in the first place, unless the Ukrainians decide to keep it real authentic and also return to their old socio-economic status under the old union, i.e. as serfs under the Polish szlachta.

3. Recognize the Russian Federation as an aggressor state… break diplomatic relations, blockade the occupied territories, end Russian business activities in Ukraine, sanction Russian capital, goods, and services.

This is an excellent idea (to sideline the Western politicians and Kremlin “geniuses” who threw Ukraine a lifeline in the form of Minsk II, and allowed Russian businesses to continue investing in Ukraine to the tune of billions of dollars since 2014).

Some of these actions – namely, the blockade of the Donbass, and the shuttering down of Russian banks – have already been embarked on and post-facto legitimized by the state in recent weeks, which has resulted in the Kremlin’s apparent loss of interest in shoving Donbass back into Ukraine.

May they continue wracking up more and more peremogas along these lines!

4. Recognize [the LDNR] as occupied territories and develop a real plan to liberate Crimea and Donbass. Immediately embark upon economic, informational, and reconaissance-sabotage actions in furtherance of these goals.

Even better idea.

Though they should beware that the frontline can move backwards as well as forwards.

5. Return the right to recreate a nuclear weapons capability as a foundation of national security in light of the violation of the Budapest Memorandum.

Ukraine does have the technical capacity and human capital to do this.

Of course, the types of people who rule the West, such as Merkel or Juncker, will absolutely love the idea of nuclearization in a state full of groups of armed extremists roving around. By “absolutely love” I mean so shell-shocked they’d be begging Putin to put that rabid animal down.

6. Create a high-tech professional contract army, and a reserve army, based on the territorial principle.

This is very doable on a $90 billion GDP, by which I mean it’s completely bonkers (even if Ukraine does now spend 6% of that measly figure on its military).

7. Legalize the right to armed defense and gun ownership.

Good idea.

Incidentally, this right has existed in the “sovok” DNR since 2015, which has caused no end of butthurt amongst Right Sector.

8. Eliminate hostile propaganda from the Ukrainian information space. Cultivate traditional values, strengthen national consciousness. The Ukrainian language should be the only state language.

Russian culture is already aggressively marginalized – the list of banned Russian TV shows, films, and books is so long it’s hard to keep track. There are hundreds of political prisoners, almost none of them, of course, recognized by Western human rights organizations.

But if Ukrainian culture is indeed so powerful, attractive, and natural to the denizens of the western Pontic steppes, why does it need to be imposed through such repressive and illiberal methods?

9. Carry out a real lustration… strengthen criminal punishments for corruption.

So they do at least recognize that the Euromaidan has done nothing to improve corruption in the past three years, regardless of all the (invariably inconsequential) public workers that its activists shoved into rubbish bins.

Solution: Something along the lines of “Only mass shootings with save Ukraine!,” aka the convergence of UkSSR patriots with retrograde Russian Stalinists (as is oddly appropriate).

10. Introduce a workable procedure for impeaching the President and make a law about the recall of deputies of all levels and judges.

Presumably to be forgotten about as soon as Poroshenko gets removed and their own people are in power.

Because the alternative in Ukraine would be anarchy.

11. Introduce elections for judges and certain categories of local bureaucrats.

Not a bad idea, since along with (17), it will result in the effective breakup of the Ukrainian project.

12. Liquidate the oligarchic system: Return subsoil ownership to the state, as well as strategic objects and enterprises, illegally privatized after 1991; liquidate private monopolities, end capital flight to offshore havens.

This is not bad.

As in Russia, privatization in the 1990s was code word for mass looting, and the oligarchs borne of that period have since proven to be exceptionally bad stewards of their ill-gotten gains.

However, liberal economists will not approve (neither will the countries in thrall to them, i.e. the West).

So goodbye IMF funds. Enjoy the default.

13. Guarantee the labor rights of Ukrainians and create conditions for an effective labor union movement.

As is much of the rest of this program, it boils down to two options:

ORDER IT NOW

Either they will institute what it says on the tin, allowing real labor unions that stymie productivity and cancel out even the competitive advantages of Ukraine’s absurdly low wages; or the labor unions they have in mind would be utterly subservient to the state, as in Nazi Germany.

14. Create a new socially just tax code, which will encourage the development of small and medium businesses.

Nice sentiment – no details.

15. Encourage the development of national atomic and alternative energy as a foundation of energy independence.

Many alternative energy schemes are bondoogles even in developed Western countries.

In Poroshenko’s Ukraine, front companies were paid to import coal from South Africa as part of widely propagandized schemes to achieve energy independence from Russia, while in reality those funds were used to buy cheaper coal from Donbass. The difference went to predictable places.

This is a country which can’t even build a proper wall on the border with Russia. Nobody knows where the funds went.

Now try to imagine how Ukraine’s experiments with alternative energy will go.

16. Ban the trade of Ukrainian strategic resources, such as agricultural lands.

Okay.

17. Introduce real self-government by creating self-sufficient territorial units with a large degree of authority.

Agreed – federalization has been consistently touted even as a solid solution to Ukraine’s many… existential problems.

18. Rationalize immigration law, including effective provisions against illegal immigration and the creation of conditions for the return of Ukrainians to the motherland.

Ukraine isn’t facing an immigration problem; it is facing an emigration and brain drain problem, which will become even more catastrophic should it ever achieve the Maidan’s holy grail of bezviz (visa free travel with Europe).

Moreover, in light of the fact that migrants to the EU don’t even bother stopping over in Romania on their way to Germany and Sweden, this has a decidedly comical ring to it.

19. Restore positive dynamics in the national demographics; strengthen the traditional family, strengthen national-patriotic education, and place our bets on the young generation.

Births in all regions of Ukraine were lower in 2016 than in 2014.

Only in Crimea did they improve. What did they do right?

In conjunction with the rest of these proposals, the demographic situation will only plummet further as Ukraine falls into a new depression and perhaps finally falls apart.

20. Encourage the creation of a single local church based in Kiev.

This implies the final removal of the Russian Orthodox Church from Ukraine, including the confiscation of its remaining properties.

Considering ROC’s neutral, at best, and sometimes hostile, attitude to the Russian Spring -it has gone so far as to excommunicate priests who blessed warriors setting off for Donbass – this will perhaps be no more than what it deserves.

In the process, though, it will play a martyr’s role that will be far more useful than its groveling before Our Ukrainian Partners these past three years.

***

slava-ukraine Overall, solid program, I agree with almost all of it.

Consequently this blog will also be a leading torch-bearer of Ukrainian nationalism on the Internet, just as it is already Erdogan’s No.1 on the Internet.

Slava Ukraine!

 
• Category: Foreign Policy • Tags: Nationalism, Ukraine 
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  1. Actually a vision of “Międzymorze” (between-the-seas, intermarium) lurks around in the Polish internet, though sometimes it is written as “idea jagiellońska”. It was also attributed to the Lech Kaczyński. The problem is, of course, that the only people on the Ukrainian side who would like the idea are exactly those people who glorify the murders of Poles in Volhynia and the rest of former Borderlands.

    Though, as it was observed in one old article ihave just googled, discussing Poland-Ukraine-Belarus-Lithuania-Latvia alliance:

    “In 2010, experts estimated that in such hypothetical association, combined GDP of Ukraine and Belarus would only amount to 35% (while the population share would be at 56%). Poland, alone, would provide 58 % of total GDP (with a 38% share of population). Lithuania and Latvia would give a combined GDP of 7%, with the 10% share of population.”

    It was seven years ago, so nowadays the proportions would be even more biased toward Poland (World Bank PPP GDP: Poland 24th in the world, 1,052bln, Ukraine 50th, 350bln, i.e. three times lower, while having slightly larger population).

    AK: That’s correct, thanks, got my geopolitical concepts mixed up.

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  2. “Ukraine isn’t facing an immigration problem”

    Perhaps not now, but it is wise to always state on ones political policies where one stands on immigration. Do you think that people like Soros would hesitate one second if they could somehow get mass immigration from Africa into Ukraine ?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin

    Do you think that people like Soros would hesitate one second if they could somehow get mass immigration from Africa into Ukraine ?
     
    Of course not.

    Neither would his acolytes there: http://blogs.ft.com/beyond-brics/2015/11/06/light-at-the-end-of-the-tunnel-resettle-syrian-refugees-in-ukraine/

    The current government is a cargo cult, and they will engage in whatever rituals are necessary to get Western cargo or even the promise of it.

    I will give the nationalists there that they have some principles, even if they tend to be very stupid and unrealistic ones.
  3. @neutral
    "Ukraine isn’t facing an immigration problem"

    Perhaps not now, but it is wise to always state on ones political policies where one stands on immigration. Do you think that people like Soros would hesitate one second if they could somehow get mass immigration from Africa into Ukraine ?

    Do you think that people like Soros would hesitate one second if they could somehow get mass immigration from Africa into Ukraine ?

    Of course not.

    Neither would his acolytes there: http://blogs.ft.com/beyond-brics/2015/11/06/light-at-the-end-of-the-tunnel-resettle-syrian-refugees-in-ukraine/

    The current government is a cargo cult, and they will engage in whatever rituals are necessary to get Western cargo or even the promise of it.

    I will give the nationalists there that they have some principles, even if they tend to be very stupid and unrealistic ones.

    Read More
  4. (Polish nationalists) “want Lvov back”

    The Polish enjoy visiting Lvov, and generally
    find the Ukrainians to be quite hospitable.
    Stefan Banach, a great Polish mathematician,
    and one of the founders of functional analysis,
    lived in Lvov before the war. A nearby town of
    Drohobych is also important – it’s where Bruno
    Schulz, a master of the Polish language,
    spent his relatively short life in the decades leading
    to World War II.

    The Polish also enjoy visiting Vilnius. I might also
    mention that my relatives enjoy visiting Berlin for
    its museums, etc simply because they live closer to
    Berlin than to Warsaw. None of this means that Poland
    wants Lvov or Vilnius back. Would Poland want to assume
    the enormous Ukrainian debt? I don’t think so. Balcerowicz,
    the architect of the successful shock therapy that transformed
    Poland’s economy in the 1990s, is now an adviser to Poroshenko
    but I doubt that his advice to rein in the oligarchs will be followed.
    In any case, the Polish nationalists are a marginal group. I wouldn’t
    worry too much about them.

    Poland is now hosting over a million gastarbeiters and students, mostly
    from Ukraine but also growing numbers from Belarus, Russia, and Armenia.
    There’s already grumbling that they keep the wages down (exactly as in the
    U.S.), conflicts will happen but personally I don’t see any major problems.
    Poland is hospitable to all of them. As I posted before, I actually know a young
    woman from Russia and a family from Ukraine, all in Warsaw. They seem to
    like Poland

    Read More
    • Replies: @michael dr
    There is no Ukrainian debt - or at least there is no Ukrainian debt holder with any anticipation of getting their money back. Historic debt has gone, much like historic Ukraine (which was always a regional holding company for regions that wanted to be part of Russia or feared Russia.

    Gastarbeiters in Poland - good place to be. The real concern for Poland is when he Guest criminals with the taste of blood on their lips find that low risk crime in Ukraine no longer pays, and go for higher risk higher reward crime in Warsaw.
  5. I’ve been seeing this ad plastered on bus stops in New York:

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C3BjOo_XUAAyBtf.jpg

    In the order of decreasing font size: Lvov, Poland, vodka.

    Read More
  6. @Anon 2
    (Polish nationalists) "want Lvov back"

    The Polish enjoy visiting Lvov, and generally
    find the Ukrainians to be quite hospitable.
    Stefan Banach, a great Polish mathematician,
    and one of the founders of functional analysis,
    lived in Lvov before the war. A nearby town of
    Drohobych is also important - it's where Bruno
    Schulz, a master of the Polish language,
    spent his relatively short life in the decades leading
    to World War II.

    The Polish also enjoy visiting Vilnius. I might also
    mention that my relatives enjoy visiting Berlin for
    its museums, etc simply because they live closer to
    Berlin than to Warsaw. None of this means that Poland
    wants Lvov or Vilnius back. Would Poland want to assume
    the enormous Ukrainian debt? I don't think so. Balcerowicz,
    the architect of the successful shock therapy that transformed
    Poland's economy in the 1990s, is now an adviser to Poroshenko
    but I doubt that his advice to rein in the oligarchs will be followed.
    In any case, the Polish nationalists are a marginal group. I wouldn't
    worry too much about them.

    Poland is now hosting over a million gastarbeiters and students, mostly
    from Ukraine but also growing numbers from Belarus, Russia, and Armenia.
    There's already grumbling that they keep the wages down (exactly as in the
    U.S.), conflicts will happen but personally I don't see any major problems.
    Poland is hospitable to all of them. As I posted before, I actually know a young
    woman from Russia and a family from Ukraine, all in Warsaw. They seem to
    like Poland

    There is no Ukrainian debt – or at least there is no Ukrainian debt holder with any anticipation of getting their money back. Historic debt has gone, much like historic Ukraine (which was always a regional holding company for regions that wanted to be part of Russia or feared Russia.

    Gastarbeiters in Poland – good place to be. The real concern for Poland is when he Guest criminals with the taste of blood on their lips find that low risk crime in Ukraine no longer pays, and go for higher risk higher reward crime in Warsaw.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Glossy
    There is no Ukrainian debt – or at least there is no Ukrainian debt holder with any anticipation of getting their money back.

    In that case what if the debt holders gather together and divide the Ukraine between its solvent neighbors, splitting the debt in proportion to the population or GDP? Default will be avoided. The things that are in the interests of the financial markets tend to get accomplished.
  7. @michael dr
    There is no Ukrainian debt - or at least there is no Ukrainian debt holder with any anticipation of getting their money back. Historic debt has gone, much like historic Ukraine (which was always a regional holding company for regions that wanted to be part of Russia or feared Russia.

    Gastarbeiters in Poland - good place to be. The real concern for Poland is when he Guest criminals with the taste of blood on their lips find that low risk crime in Ukraine no longer pays, and go for higher risk higher reward crime in Warsaw.

    There is no Ukrainian debt – or at least there is no Ukrainian debt holder with any anticipation of getting their money back.

    In that case what if the debt holders gather together and divide the Ukraine between its solvent neighbors, splitting the debt in proportion to the population or GDP? Default will be avoided. The things that are in the interests of the financial markets tend to get accomplished.

    Read More
  8. why does it need to be imposed through such repressive and illiberal methods

    There are hundreds of political prisoners, almost none of them, of course, recognized by Western human rights organizations.

    Supporter of popular referendums.

    You are not a Black Hundred you are a liberal democrat.

    Did not know about the political prisoners. It is odd that there has not been even a peep in the MSM.

    Read More
  9. Why are you so obsessed with promoting what you percieve to be Russia’s national interests? This was a very bizzare read.

    Read More
    • LOL: JL
    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
    WTF!? This is ROG disinformation.

    I am a committed supporter of Ukrainian nationalism. Glory to the heroes! Death to the enemy!
  10. @Arilando
    Why are you so obsessed with promoting what you percieve to be Russia's national interests? This was a very bizzare read.

    WTF!? This is ROG disinformation.

    I am a committed supporter of Ukrainian nationalism. Glory to the heroes! Death to the enemy!

    Read More
    • Replies: @Quartermaster
    Sure. You love Ukraine. So does Putin. He loves it so much he wishes to bring back under Russia's thumb.

    Much of your article is little more than a farrago of nonsense and stupidity. I could respond to the stupidity, but I'd simply end up copying the entire article into block quotes.

    Like Saker, you know nothing more than what Putin vomits through his propaganda organs.
    , @Inertiller
    Labor unions are exactly what is needed. Not the bought off unions in the pockets of the owners that "stymie productivity and cancel out competitive advantages". Those unions thrive in a predatory environment where a small cabal of swindlers get to play over a broken, obedient slave class. Similar to some parts of the United States now - productivity is measured by how effectively people are set up and ripped off, or left to die, hopefully without them being aware of how they've been set up to fail, because it's all perfectly legal.

    I agree, we can't have fake unions, they have to be real. It's too bad Russia couldn't help Greece, as the bandits are destroying real unions there. It's hard to tell the neoliberals apart, some appear to be pro-Russia, and then others appear to be anti-Russia, but whether they are or aren't is probably just a distraction, they want the same thing, enfeeblement and austerity to grab the spoils with both hands.
  11. The ‘Intermarium’ idea had a precursor, of which there is a certain reluctance to talk about. We’ll see why.

    “League of East European States” (from Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia):

    “The League of East European States or Federation of East European States (German: osteuropäischer Staatenbund) was a political idea conceived during World War I for the establishment of a buffer state (Pufferstaat) within the Jewish Pale of Settlement of Russia, , which would be a de facto protectorate of the German Empire in Mitteleuropa.
    The idea was conceived by prominent Zionist Max Bodenheimer. Bodenheimer was a founder of the German Committee for Freeing of Russian Jews. The Committee drew up a plan to establish a buffer state between Germany and Russia, created from territory to be taken from Imperial Russia. It would be a federation of Poles, Ukrainians, Belarusians, Lithuanians, Latvians and Estonians but “the Germans, and Jews would hold the power”. According to this plan, the new state should be a monarchy ruled by the Hohenzollern dynasty.
    Bodenheimer submitted a Memorandum with the proposal to the German Foreign Office in 1914, where it and the Committee received the support of Erich Ludendorff and then Paul von Hindenburg.
    The plan soon proved unpopular with other German officials and Bodenheimer’s Zionist colleagues, and was dead by the following year. The Poles were not very keen on the plan either.
    The idea was criticized by various Zionist leaders as impractical and dangerous, and eventually was given up after Wilhelm II of Germany and Franz Joseph of Austria issued the Act of November 5th 1916 in which they proclaimed the creation of the Kingdom of Poland.
    The Bodenheimer plan was cited by the author Andrzej Leszek Szcześniak as an example of “Judeopolonia” in his 2001 book of the same name, echoing the anti-semitic conspiracy theory positing a future Jewish domination of Poland that arose in the late nineteenth century.”*

    In actual fact the idea was in the air since 1902.**
    “In 1902, Zionist Max Bodenheimer proposed the idea of the League of East European States, which would entail the establishment of a buffer state (Pufferstaat) within the Jewish Pale of Settlement of Russia, composed of the former Polish provinces annexed by Russia’ (Wikipedia).

    *The new buffer state was to have been dominated by some six million Jewish inhabitants, while other nationalities would counterbalance each other. The Jews would be most important because of their distribution, control of trade, and high literacy. Hatred of Russia and fear of other national groups in the buffer state would make them dependent on German protection and support. The new buffer state was to be a monarchy under a Hohenzollern prince from Berlin. Lublin was to be its capital because it was the seat of the autonomous Jewish national parliament, the Congressus Judaicus, before the partitions of Poland.
    The population of some 30 million of the proposed buffer state or “Lublin Monarchy,” was to be composed of autonomous groups of 6 million Jews, 8 million Poles, 11 million Ukrainians and Byelorussians, 31/2 million Lithuanians and Latvians, and under 1/2 million Baltic Germans. The official language, culture, and the officers’ corps of the new monarchy was to be German.***

    **”In 1902 Bodenheimer wrote a memorandum to the German Foreign Ministry in which he claimed that Yiddish, when Polish Jews agitated strongly for spoken by millions of East European Jews, who lived in the provinces annexed from Poland by Russia and Austria, was “a popular German dialect,” and that these Jews were well disposed to Germany by linguistic affinity. Bodenheimer stated that Zionism was currently controlled by pro-German leaders, and that Germany’s support for Zionist goals would be a boon to German ambitions in the Near East and would earn the gratitude of the entire Jewish people. “The influence of Jewry in foreign lands would accrue to the benefit of Germany…”

    The idea was revived at the Versailles Peace Conference when a powerful ‘Jewish Lobby’ agitated strongly for Jewish national autonomy in Poland, opposing strenuously an independent Polish state invoking gruesome stories of ferocious pogroms (which never occurred).
    Also it reappeared in the proposal for the creation of a Jewish Soviet Republic in Ukraine and Crimea.

    ***The idea of a Jewish Lublin state was used in German propaganda for the deportation of the Jews to the East. For example, of the 70,000 Jews delivered by the Vichy French to the Germans, many bought first class railroad tickets to travel from France to the “Jewish Lublin State” for re-settlement there.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Logan
    The idea of a league incorporating territory from the Baltic to (almost) Black Seas goes back a great deal farther.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish%E2%80%93Lithuanian_Commonwealth

    Of course, the Poles and Lithuanians ruled over a large number of subject minorities in this Commonwealth. Over time the Lithuanian nobility became increasingly assimilated to the Polish szlachta, which meant it gradually became a Polish state, more or less.

    This state was unique in history, a "crowned Republic" of absolute social and political equality for the citizens. Sadly, the citizens were limited to the szlachta, roughly 10% of the population, who domineered over and oppressed the rest of the population with great vigor.
  12. What do you make of the absurd extent of corruption in these countries? Mostly a post-Sovok habit? How can it be reduced?

    Read More
    • Replies: @AP

    What do you make of the absurd extent of corruption in these countries? Mostly a post-Sovok habit?
     
    Basically, yes. Within Ukraine this is mitigated somewhat by the "Habsburg effect" in those lands that had been part of Austria.
    , @Anatoly Karlin
    http://www.unz.com/akarlin/roving-bandits-in-wild-fields/
  13. @Seraphim
    The 'Intermarium' idea had a precursor, of which there is a certain reluctance to talk about. We'll see why.

    "League of East European States" (from Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia):

    "The League of East European States or Federation of East European States (German: osteuropäischer Staatenbund) was a political idea conceived during World War I for the establishment of a buffer state (Pufferstaat) within the Jewish Pale of Settlement of Russia, , which would be a de facto protectorate of the German Empire in Mitteleuropa.
    The idea was conceived by prominent Zionist Max Bodenheimer. Bodenheimer was a founder of the German Committee for Freeing of Russian Jews. The Committee drew up a plan to establish a buffer state between Germany and Russia, created from territory to be taken from Imperial Russia. It would be a federation of Poles, Ukrainians, Belarusians, Lithuanians, Latvians and Estonians but "the Germans, and Jews would hold the power". According to this plan, the new state should be a monarchy ruled by the Hohenzollern dynasty.
    Bodenheimer submitted a Memorandum with the proposal to the German Foreign Office in 1914, where it and the Committee received the support of Erich Ludendorff and then Paul von Hindenburg.
    The plan soon proved unpopular with other German officials and Bodenheimer's Zionist colleagues, and was dead by the following year. The Poles were not very keen on the plan either.
    The idea was criticized by various Zionist leaders as impractical and dangerous, and eventually was given up after Wilhelm II of Germany and Franz Joseph of Austria issued the Act of November 5th 1916 in which they proclaimed the creation of the Kingdom of Poland.
    The Bodenheimer plan was cited by the author Andrzej Leszek Szcześniak as an example of "Judeopolonia" in his 2001 book of the same name, echoing the anti-semitic conspiracy theory positing a future Jewish domination of Poland that arose in the late nineteenth century."*

    In actual fact the idea was in the air since 1902.**
    "In 1902, Zionist Max Bodenheimer proposed the idea of the League of East European States, which would entail the establishment of a buffer state (Pufferstaat) within the Jewish Pale of Settlement of Russia, composed of the former Polish provinces annexed by Russia' (Wikipedia).

    *The new buffer state was to have been dominated by some six million Jewish inhabitants, while other nationalities would counterbalance each other. The Jews would be most important because of their distribution, control of trade, and high literacy. Hatred of Russia and fear of other national groups in the buffer state would make them dependent on German protection and support. The new buffer state was to be a monarchy under a Hohenzollern prince from Berlin. Lublin was to be its capital because it was the seat of the autonomous Jewish national parliament, the Congressus Judaicus, before the partitions of Poland.
    The population of some 30 million of the proposed buffer state or "Lublin Monarchy," was to be composed of autonomous groups of 6 million Jews, 8 million Poles, 11 million Ukrainians and Byelorussians, 31/2 million Lithuanians and Latvians, and under 1/2 million Baltic Germans. The official language, culture, and the officers' corps of the new monarchy was to be German.***

    **"In 1902 Bodenheimer wrote a memorandum to the German Foreign Ministry in which he claimed that Yiddish, when Polish Jews agitated strongly for spoken by millions of East European Jews, who lived in the provinces annexed from Poland by Russia and Austria, was "a popular German dialect," and that these Jews were well disposed to Germany by linguistic affinity. Bodenheimer stated that Zionism was currently controlled by pro-German leaders, and that Germany's support for Zionist goals would be a boon to German ambitions in the Near East and would earn the gratitude of the entire Jewish people. "The influence of Jewry in foreign lands would accrue to the benefit of Germany..."

    The idea was revived at the Versailles Peace Conference when a powerful 'Jewish Lobby' agitated strongly for Jewish national autonomy in Poland, opposing strenuously an independent Polish state invoking gruesome stories of ferocious pogroms (which never occurred).
    Also it reappeared in the proposal for the creation of a Jewish Soviet Republic in Ukraine and Crimea.

    ***The idea of a Jewish Lublin state was used in German propaganda for the deportation of the Jews to the East. For example, of the 70,000 Jews delivered by the Vichy French to the Germans, many bought first class railroad tickets to travel from France to the "Jewish Lublin State" for re-settlement there.

    The idea of a league incorporating territory from the Baltic to (almost) Black Seas goes back a great deal farther.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish%E2%80%93Lithuanian_Commonwealth

    Of course, the Poles and Lithuanians ruled over a large number of subject minorities in this Commonwealth. Over time the Lithuanian nobility became increasingly assimilated to the Polish szlachta, which meant it gradually became a Polish state, more or less.

    This state was unique in history, a “crowned Republic” of absolute social and political equality for the citizens. Sadly, the citizens were limited to the szlachta, roughly 10% of the population, who domineered over and oppressed the rest of the population with great vigor.

    Read More
  14. @Craig Willy
    What do you make of the absurd extent of corruption in these countries? Mostly a post-Sovok habit? How can it be reduced?

    What do you make of the absurd extent of corruption in these countries? Mostly a post-Sovok habit?

    Basically, yes. Within Ukraine this is mitigated somewhat by the “Habsburg effect” in those lands that had been part of Austria.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Felix Keverich
    Western Ukraine has become so disfunctional, regime now fails to provide basic public services. Suffice it to say the major of Lvov considers declaring state of emergency, because the city is drowning in garbage.

    "Habsburg effect" you say. LMAO
    http://sharij.net/77649

    , @EugeneGur
    Ukraine has always been corrupt, as long as I can remember. During the Soviet times, the corruptions was somewhat restricted by the central Soviet government.

    Since independence, the local boys decided that could do anything they wanted, since the Big Brother was no longer watching. So, they squandered the Soviet inheritance quickly and effectively. Ukraine was the richest republic in the Soviet Union, significantly richer than Russia proper. There is nothing left of it now.

    I am not sure where exactly you observed that "Hubsburg effect", but today's Ukraine is doing worse than the Central Asia, which has not had a chance at all to benefit from the civilizing influence of being a part of Austria.
  15. @Anatoly Karlin
    WTF!? This is ROG disinformation.

    I am a committed supporter of Ukrainian nationalism. Glory to the heroes! Death to the enemy!

    Sure. You love Ukraine. So does Putin. He loves it so much he wishes to bring back under Russia’s thumb.

    Much of your article is little more than a farrago of nonsense and stupidity. I could respond to the stupidity, but I’d simply end up copying the entire article into block quotes.

    Like Saker, you know nothing more than what Putin vomits through his propaganda organs.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Felix Keverich
    You are reading "Russian Reaction Blog". If you don't care what Russians think , you will be fine watching CNN.

    IMO Karlin offers a valuable perspective, which is completely absent in the American media. If you look at "Russia experts" in American MSM, they all tend to be Jewish emigres from the former USSR. Those simply don't have a good understanding the country, they are also heavily Russophobic. (that's why they left, duh)
    , @Anatoly Karlin
    How is the Russian Army's appointment with destruction on the mountains of Israel coming along?
    , @Daniel Chieh
    It really doesn't help that Ukraine is actively trying to be "rightist" while seeking to ingratiating themselves with the uber-liberal entity that is the European Union. Come on, the parody writes itself.

    Ukraine's a mess of contradictions that is actively self-destructing. How do you expect a Russian nationalist such as AK NOT to mock it?

  16. @AP

    What do you make of the absurd extent of corruption in these countries? Mostly a post-Sovok habit?
     
    Basically, yes. Within Ukraine this is mitigated somewhat by the "Habsburg effect" in those lands that had been part of Austria.

    Western Ukraine has become so disfunctional, regime now fails to provide basic public services. Suffice it to say the major of Lvov considers declaring state of emergency, because the city is drowning in garbage.

    “Habsburg effect” you say. LMAO

    http://sharij.net/77649

    Read More
    • Replies: @AP
    So in your world the local landfill being full means the city is dysfunctional. This sort of thing periodically happens in civilized places btw. Meanwhile Lviv's economy has largely recovered, its businesses are functioning, crime is low, construction is booming, etc.

    At any rate, Habsburg effect refers to corruption.

  17. On March 16, the three main political forces of Ukrainian nationalism – the political party Svoboda, Right Sector, and the National Corpus (i.e. the Azov batallion’s political wing)

    As of December, Svoboda was polling at about 5%, just enough to squeeze into parliament. Right Sector was polling at .9% and National Corpus is at .2%. (Jarosh has left Right Sector and has his own party, which is at 1.5%). I doubt there has been a huge change since then. These parties are not nothing, but their takeover is not imminent.

    As unpopular as Poroshenko is, among likely voters he would get 12.5%, compared to 4.4% for Tiahnybok.

    “Define as a priority of state policy the realization of Ukraine’s national interests.”

    This is typical for semi-fictional national projects, in which there is no people without a state.

    Or a people with a history of statelessness. If a Russian politician said that Russia must “define as a priority of state policy the realization of Russia’s national interests” would this be evidence of the “semi-fictional” nature of the Russian national project?

    Moreover, in substance that quote isn’t much different from the meaning underlying Trump’s famous quote, “We either have a country or we don’t…If we have a country we have to have borders. We have borders we have to have laws. We either have a country or we don’t and it’s that simple.”

    …a resurrection of the Intermarium, a geopolitical vision promoted by interwar Polish leader Józef Piłsudski to unite the countries from the Baltic Sea to the Mediterranean.

    Today, it has mainly become a Ukrainian nationalist obsession.

    It also happens to be even more demented and schizophrenic than Eurasianism (which is at least theoretically realizable, even if its end result will be to turn Russia into Greater Turkestan due to demographic factors).

    Ukraine, with a nominal GDP per capita below that of Nigeria, will be economically dominated by Poland in any such arrangement.

    The alternative to some sort of arrangement or union with Poland would be some sort of arrangement or union with Russia.

    Hmm…in which arrangement would Ukraine be dominated more by its partner?

    As such, it is unclear how such a neo-Rzeczpospolita union would even be set up in the first place, unless the Ukrainians decide to keep it real authentic and also return to their old socio-economic status under the old union, i.e. as serfs under the Polish szlachta.

    Well, if these are the terms in which you think – again, think about which country would be able to dominate the other, more – Poland, with a lower population than Ukraine and with some democratic/European political constraints, or Russia, a country with three times the population and with a less democratic/more despotic political culture.

    “Recognize [the LDNR] as occupied territories and develop a real plan to liberate Crimea and Donbass. Immediately embark upon economic, informational, and reconaissance-sabotage actions in furtherance of these goals.”

    Even better idea.

    You are being facetious? The wise thing would be to recognize them as occupied territories and cut off all non-beneficial contact (I guess coal importation only, nothing else). The nationalists – or rather, Kolomoisky – have not done so.

    “Return the right to recreate a nuclear weapons capability as a foundation of national security in light of the violation of the Budapest Memorandum.”

    Ukraine does have the technical capacity and human capital to do this.

    Of course, the types of people who rule the West, such as Merkel or Juncker, will absolutely love the idea of nuclearization in a state full of groups of armed extremists roving around.

    Some Polish politician has already stated that Ukraine ought to have nukes. There is probably some faint possibility that Ukraine could even help Poland achieve nuclear capability, one day.

    And I suspect that Trump wouldn’t be opposed to this.

    But, this would be more of a long-term project.

    “Create a high-tech professional contract army, and a reserve army, based on the territorial principle.”

    This is very doable on a $90 billion GDP, by which I mean it’s completely bonkers (even if Ukraine does now spend 6% of that measly figure on its military).

    As in the case of Russia, there is a PPP effect involved with regards to military spending. $5.4 billion goes much further in Ukraine than in other countries.

    “Eliminate hostile propaganda from the Ukrainian information space. Cultivate traditional values, strengthen national consciousness. The Ukrainian language should be the only state language.”

    But if Ukrainian culture is indeed so powerful, attractive, and natural to the denizens of the western Pontic steppes, why does it need to be imposed through such repressive and illiberal methods?

    This is probably aimed largely at the Soviet remnants in the country’s east and south.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Felix Keverich
    AP seems to have an imaginary country inside his head, a country that possesses nuclear technology it could share with Poland and a sophisticated military industrial complex that compares to Russia's.

    The reality of Ukraine is a country that's unable to take out its trash (literally)
    http://sharij.net/77649


    Meanwhile Lviv’s economy has largely recovered, its businesses are functioning, crime is low, construction is booming, etc.
     
    Haha! Yeah, riiighht.
    , @Anatoly Karlin

    These parties are not nothing, but their takeover is not imminent.
     
    Now tally their percentage share of the armed men in Ukraine who don't answer to the government.

    Or a people with a history of statelessness.
     
    Ukraine has had a state for most of the past century, which it used to create Ukrainians. Without Ukraine, they rapidly dissipate. At the other extreme, the Jews remained Jews without Israel for a couple of millennia.

    The alternative to some sort of arrangement or union with Poland would be some sort of arrangement or union with Russia.

    Hmm…in which arrangement would Ukraine be dominated more by its partner?
     
    Any union with Poland is unworkable except on the basis of complete Ukrainian subjugation precisely because Poland has most of the economy but if anything is slightly overweighed by Ukraine in demographic terms.

    The fact that Ukrainians are very culturally compatible with Russians, in fact essentially are Russians under the Ukrainian veneer, makes this a moot argument.

    You are being facetious? The wise thing would be to recognize them as occupied territories and cut off all non-beneficial contact (I guess coal importation only, nothing else).
     
    Of course not.

    Attacking Donbass, or even better Crimea, is the surest way to put Ukraine out of its existential misery. At least on the territories where it doesn't belong.

    Some Polish politician has already stated that Ukraine ought to have nukes... And I suspect that Trump wouldn’t be opposed to this.
     
    Russia will have the final veto on Ukrainian nuclear weapons capability, and I suspect even Putin, who has otherwise been very weak on Ukraine, will man up enough to exercise it.

    $5.4 billion goes much further in Ukraine than in other countries.
     
    Sure, that is correct.

    But using this still meager sum for creating a professional army would still be a misuse of resources. That is what Georgia did in the runup to 08/08/08 and it didn't turn out well for them.
    , @gobsmacked

    Some Polish politician has already stated that Ukraine ought to have nukes. There is probably some faint possibility that Ukraine could even help Poland achieve nuclear capability, one day.

    And I suspect that Trump wouldn’t be opposed to this.
     

    The same country that wants to bomb Iran back to the Stone Age to prevent it from acquiring nuclear weapons wants to illegally proliferate nuclear weapons in Europe? Tell me more!

    Poland and the Ukraine cannot legally acquire nuclear weapons under the NNPT that both of them ratified. The US cannot legally place its own nuclear weapons in either country under the treaty it ratified. There is no way around it.

  18. The opaque Byzantine meanderings of this post illustrate all the more why the U.S. should stay out of the Ukraine business altogether. Ukraine is in Europe, let the Europeans handle it. BTW, here’s a wisdom refresher from George Washington (excerpted from his Farewell Address).

    “The great rule of conduct for us in regard to foreign nations is in extending our commercial relations, to have with them as little political connection as possible. So far as we have already formed engagements, let them be fulfilled with perfect good faith. Here let us stop. Europe has a set of primary interests which to us have none; or a very remote relation. Hence she must be engaged in frequent controversies, the causes of which are essentially foreign to our concerns. Hence, therefore, it must be unwise in us to implicate ourselves by artificial ties in the ordinary vicissitudes of her politics, or the ordinary combinations and collisions of her friendships or enmities.”

    The arrogant nitwit Elites in Washington (including Trump) should be made to read the foreign policy admonitions in that document every day when they wake up.

    Read More
  19. Yes, of course. The history of these regions is notoriously complicated and we can go back even further than the ‘crowned Republic’. To the trade ‘route from the Varangians to the Greeks’ (Путь из варяг в греки, Vägen från varjagerna till grekerna, Εμπορική Οδός Βαράγγων – Ελλήνων), the ‘amber route’, but also of furs and slaves.
    For sure the Jews have been involved in the immensely profitable trade of these regions from antiquity (the so-called Rhadanites who detained a monopoly of the East-West commerce crossing them). They may have been involved in the conversion of the Khazars to Judaism. Why was Poland known as the ‘paradisus Iudaeorum’? How come that the first coins minted in Poland bear Hebraic markings? How come that Princess Judith of Bohemia, wife of Polish Prince Władysław I Herman (1044–1102 “ransomed many Christians with her own money from the bondage of the Jews”? Already!
    Jews were conferred the ‘Magdeburg rights, or Magdeburg Law’, that specifically outlined the rights and privileges that Jews had coming into Poland. E.g. “they could maintain communal autonomy, live according to their laws, and be subjected directly to the royal jurisdiction in matters concerning Jews and Christians. One of the provisions granted to Jews was that a Jew could not be made Gewährsmann, that is, he could not be compelled to tell from whom he acquired any object which had been sold or pledged to him and which was found in his possession. Other provisions frequently mentioned were a permission to sell meat to Christians, or employ Christian servants”. (Wiki)
    The alliance of the Szlachta with the Jews is thus very old.
    And we should keep in mind that all this space discovered early its mission to defend its ‘freedoms’ from ‘Moskal aggression’!

    Read More
    • Replies: @iffen
    The history of these regions is notoriously complicated and we can go back even further

    Go to wherever you need to go to find dem Jews.

    What kind of intelligence is this?
  20. @Quartermaster
    Sure. You love Ukraine. So does Putin. He loves it so much he wishes to bring back under Russia's thumb.

    Much of your article is little more than a farrago of nonsense and stupidity. I could respond to the stupidity, but I'd simply end up copying the entire article into block quotes.

    Like Saker, you know nothing more than what Putin vomits through his propaganda organs.

    You are reading “Russian Reaction Blog”. If you don’t care what Russians think , you will be fine watching CNN.

    IMO Karlin offers a valuable perspective, which is completely absent in the American media. If you look at “Russia experts” in American MSM, they all tend to be Jewish emigres from the former USSR. Those simply don’t have a good understanding the country, they are also heavily Russophobic. (that’s why they left, duh)

    Read More
  21. @Felix Keverich
    Western Ukraine has become so disfunctional, regime now fails to provide basic public services. Suffice it to say the major of Lvov considers declaring state of emergency, because the city is drowning in garbage.

    "Habsburg effect" you say. LMAO
    http://sharij.net/77649

    So in your world the local landfill being full means the city is dysfunctional. This sort of thing periodically happens in civilized places btw. Meanwhile Lviv’s economy has largely recovered, its businesses are functioning, crime is low, construction is booming, etc.

    At any rate, Habsburg effect refers to corruption.

    Read More
  22. @AP

    On March 16, the three main political forces of Ukrainian nationalism – the political party Svoboda, Right Sector, and the National Corpus (i.e. the Azov batallion’s political wing)
     
    As of December, Svoboda was polling at about 5%, just enough to squeeze into parliament. Right Sector was polling at .9% and National Corpus is at .2%. (Jarosh has left Right Sector and has his own party, which is at 1.5%). I doubt there has been a huge change since then. These parties are not nothing, but their takeover is not imminent.

    As unpopular as Poroshenko is, among likely voters he would get 12.5%, compared to 4.4% for Tiahnybok.


    "Define as a priority of state policy the realization of Ukraine’s national interests."

    This is typical for semi-fictional national projects, in which there is no people without a state.
     

    Or a people with a history of statelessness. If a Russian politician said that Russia must "define as a priority of state policy the realization of Russia's national interests" would this be evidence of the "semi-fictional" nature of the Russian national project?

    Moreover, in substance that quote isn't much different from the meaning underlying Trump's famous quote, "We either have a country or we don't...If we have a country we have to have borders. We have borders we have to have laws. We either have a country or we don't and it's that simple."


    ...a resurrection of the Intermarium, a geopolitical vision promoted by interwar Polish leader Józef Piłsudski to unite the countries from the Baltic Sea to the Mediterranean.

    Today, it has mainly become a Ukrainian nationalist obsession.

    It also happens to be even more demented and schizophrenic than Eurasianism (which is at least theoretically realizable, even if its end result will be to turn Russia into Greater Turkestan due to demographic factors).

    Ukraine, with a nominal GDP per capita below that of Nigeria, will be economically dominated by Poland in any such arrangement.
     

    The alternative to some sort of arrangement or union with Poland would be some sort of arrangement or union with Russia.

    Hmm...in which arrangement would Ukraine be dominated more by its partner?


    As such, it is unclear how such a neo-Rzeczpospolita union would even be set up in the first place, unless the Ukrainians decide to keep it real authentic and also return to their old socio-economic status under the old union, i.e. as serfs under the Polish szlachta.
     
    Well, if these are the terms in which you think - again, think about which country would be able to dominate the other, more - Poland, with a lower population than Ukraine and with some democratic/European political constraints, or Russia, a country with three times the population and with a less democratic/more despotic political culture.

    "Recognize [the LDNR] as occupied territories and develop a real plan to liberate Crimea and Donbass. Immediately embark upon economic, informational, and reconaissance-sabotage actions in furtherance of these goals."

    Even better idea.
     

    You are being facetious? The wise thing would be to recognize them as occupied territories and cut off all non-beneficial contact (I guess coal importation only, nothing else). The nationalists - or rather, Kolomoisky - have not done so.

    "Return the right to recreate a nuclear weapons capability as a foundation of national security in light of the violation of the Budapest Memorandum."

    Ukraine does have the technical capacity and human capital to do this.

    Of course, the types of people who rule the West, such as Merkel or Juncker, will absolutely love the idea of nuclearization in a state full of groups of armed extremists roving around.
     

    Some Polish politician has already stated that Ukraine ought to have nukes. There is probably some faint possibility that Ukraine could even help Poland achieve nuclear capability, one day.

    And I suspect that Trump wouldn't be opposed to this.

    But, this would be more of a long-term project.


    "Create a high-tech professional contract army, and a reserve army, based on the territorial principle."

    This is very doable on a $90 billion GDP, by which I mean it’s completely bonkers (even if Ukraine does now spend 6% of that measly figure on its military).
     

    As in the case of Russia, there is a PPP effect involved with regards to military spending. $5.4 billion goes much further in Ukraine than in other countries.

    "Eliminate hostile propaganda from the Ukrainian information space. Cultivate traditional values, strengthen national consciousness. The Ukrainian language should be the only state language."

    But if Ukrainian culture is indeed so powerful, attractive, and natural to the denizens of the western Pontic steppes, why does it need to be imposed through such repressive and illiberal methods?
     

    This is probably aimed largely at the Soviet remnants in the country's east and south.

    AP seems to have an imaginary country inside his head, a country that possesses nuclear technology it could share with Poland and a sophisticated military industrial complex that compares to Russia’s.

    The reality of Ukraine is a country that’s unable to take out its trash (literally)

    http://sharij.net/77649

    Meanwhile Lviv’s economy has largely recovered, its businesses are functioning, crime is low, construction is booming, etc.

    Haha! Yeah, riiighht.

    Read More
    • Replies: @AP
    It's nice to see that the truth hurts you so much that you have to cling to the overfilled landfill problem in order to ignore the other factors, such as improving economy, booming construction, low crime, etc.

    Here is the best of Lviv, in pictures:

    http://varlamov.ru/1085938.html

    Here is the worst of Lviv, in pictures:

    http://varlamov.ru/1085062.html

    So dysfunctional :-)


    a country that possesses nuclear technology it could share with Poland
     
    As Karlin wrote, correctly, "Ukraine does have the technical capacity and human capital to do this."

    I suppose this contradicts your fantasy?

  23. @Felix Keverich
    AP seems to have an imaginary country inside his head, a country that possesses nuclear technology it could share with Poland and a sophisticated military industrial complex that compares to Russia's.

    The reality of Ukraine is a country that's unable to take out its trash (literally)
    http://sharij.net/77649


    Meanwhile Lviv’s economy has largely recovered, its businesses are functioning, crime is low, construction is booming, etc.
     
    Haha! Yeah, riiighht.

    It’s nice to see that the truth hurts you so much that you have to cling to the overfilled landfill problem in order to ignore the other factors, such as improving economy, booming construction, low crime, etc.

    Here is the best of Lviv, in pictures:

    http://varlamov.ru/1085938.html

    Here is the worst of Lviv, in pictures:

    http://varlamov.ru/1085062.html

    So dysfunctional :-)

    a country that possesses nuclear technology it could share with Poland

    As Karlin wrote, correctly, “Ukraine does have the technical capacity and human capital to do this.”

    I suppose this contradicts your fantasy?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Felix Keverich

    It’s nice to see that the truth hurts you so much that you have to cling to the overfilled landfill problem in order to ignore the other factors, such as improving economy, booming construction, low crime, etc.
     
    I wouldn't be ignoring it if there was some evidence for it beside the ukro-propaganda and your enthusiasm.

    And stories like this one would not be appearing in Western media, if Galicia had a real construction boom.

    Poland Can’t Get Enough of Ukrainian Migrants

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-03-06/million-migrants-fleeing-putin-score-a-policy-jackpot-for-poland
  24. @Quartermaster
    Sure. You love Ukraine. So does Putin. He loves it so much he wishes to bring back under Russia's thumb.

    Much of your article is little more than a farrago of nonsense and stupidity. I could respond to the stupidity, but I'd simply end up copying the entire article into block quotes.

    Like Saker, you know nothing more than what Putin vomits through his propaganda organs.

    How is the Russian Army’s appointment with destruction on the mountains of Israel coming along?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Seraphim
    Hey, don't you read Ezekial (or is Ezekiek?)? Don't you know that GogMagog is Russia? True that Ezechiel lived 2500 years ago, but doesn't Bibi know better?
  25. @AP

    On March 16, the three main political forces of Ukrainian nationalism – the political party Svoboda, Right Sector, and the National Corpus (i.e. the Azov batallion’s political wing)
     
    As of December, Svoboda was polling at about 5%, just enough to squeeze into parliament. Right Sector was polling at .9% and National Corpus is at .2%. (Jarosh has left Right Sector and has his own party, which is at 1.5%). I doubt there has been a huge change since then. These parties are not nothing, but their takeover is not imminent.

    As unpopular as Poroshenko is, among likely voters he would get 12.5%, compared to 4.4% for Tiahnybok.


    "Define as a priority of state policy the realization of Ukraine’s national interests."

    This is typical for semi-fictional national projects, in which there is no people without a state.
     

    Or a people with a history of statelessness. If a Russian politician said that Russia must "define as a priority of state policy the realization of Russia's national interests" would this be evidence of the "semi-fictional" nature of the Russian national project?

    Moreover, in substance that quote isn't much different from the meaning underlying Trump's famous quote, "We either have a country or we don't...If we have a country we have to have borders. We have borders we have to have laws. We either have a country or we don't and it's that simple."


    ...a resurrection of the Intermarium, a geopolitical vision promoted by interwar Polish leader Józef Piłsudski to unite the countries from the Baltic Sea to the Mediterranean.

    Today, it has mainly become a Ukrainian nationalist obsession.

    It also happens to be even more demented and schizophrenic than Eurasianism (which is at least theoretically realizable, even if its end result will be to turn Russia into Greater Turkestan due to demographic factors).

    Ukraine, with a nominal GDP per capita below that of Nigeria, will be economically dominated by Poland in any such arrangement.
     

    The alternative to some sort of arrangement or union with Poland would be some sort of arrangement or union with Russia.

    Hmm...in which arrangement would Ukraine be dominated more by its partner?


    As such, it is unclear how such a neo-Rzeczpospolita union would even be set up in the first place, unless the Ukrainians decide to keep it real authentic and also return to their old socio-economic status under the old union, i.e. as serfs under the Polish szlachta.
     
    Well, if these are the terms in which you think - again, think about which country would be able to dominate the other, more - Poland, with a lower population than Ukraine and with some democratic/European political constraints, or Russia, a country with three times the population and with a less democratic/more despotic political culture.

    "Recognize [the LDNR] as occupied territories and develop a real plan to liberate Crimea and Donbass. Immediately embark upon economic, informational, and reconaissance-sabotage actions in furtherance of these goals."

    Even better idea.
     

    You are being facetious? The wise thing would be to recognize them as occupied territories and cut off all non-beneficial contact (I guess coal importation only, nothing else). The nationalists - or rather, Kolomoisky - have not done so.

    "Return the right to recreate a nuclear weapons capability as a foundation of national security in light of the violation of the Budapest Memorandum."

    Ukraine does have the technical capacity and human capital to do this.

    Of course, the types of people who rule the West, such as Merkel or Juncker, will absolutely love the idea of nuclearization in a state full of groups of armed extremists roving around.
     

    Some Polish politician has already stated that Ukraine ought to have nukes. There is probably some faint possibility that Ukraine could even help Poland achieve nuclear capability, one day.

    And I suspect that Trump wouldn't be opposed to this.

    But, this would be more of a long-term project.


    "Create a high-tech professional contract army, and a reserve army, based on the territorial principle."

    This is very doable on a $90 billion GDP, by which I mean it’s completely bonkers (even if Ukraine does now spend 6% of that measly figure on its military).
     

    As in the case of Russia, there is a PPP effect involved with regards to military spending. $5.4 billion goes much further in Ukraine than in other countries.

    "Eliminate hostile propaganda from the Ukrainian information space. Cultivate traditional values, strengthen national consciousness. The Ukrainian language should be the only state language."

    But if Ukrainian culture is indeed so powerful, attractive, and natural to the denizens of the western Pontic steppes, why does it need to be imposed through such repressive and illiberal methods?
     

    This is probably aimed largely at the Soviet remnants in the country's east and south.

    These parties are not nothing, but their takeover is not imminent.

    Now tally their percentage share of the armed men in Ukraine who don’t answer to the government.

    Or a people with a history of statelessness.

    Ukraine has had a state for most of the past century, which it used to create Ukrainians. Without Ukraine, they rapidly dissipate. At the other extreme, the Jews remained Jews without Israel for a couple of millennia.

    The alternative to some sort of arrangement or union with Poland would be some sort of arrangement or union with Russia.

    Hmm…in which arrangement would Ukraine be dominated more by its partner?

    Any union with Poland is unworkable except on the basis of complete Ukrainian subjugation precisely because Poland has most of the economy but if anything is slightly overweighed by Ukraine in demographic terms.

    The fact that Ukrainians are very culturally compatible with Russians, in fact essentially are Russians under the Ukrainian veneer, makes this a moot argument.

    You are being facetious? The wise thing would be to recognize them as occupied territories and cut off all non-beneficial contact (I guess coal importation only, nothing else).

    Of course not.

    Attacking Donbass, or even better Crimea, is the surest way to put Ukraine out of its existential misery. At least on the territories where it doesn’t belong.

    Some Polish politician has already stated that Ukraine ought to have nukes… And I suspect that Trump wouldn’t be opposed to this.

    Russia will have the final veto on Ukrainian nuclear weapons capability, and I suspect even Putin, who has otherwise been very weak on Ukraine, will man up enough to exercise it.

    $5.4 billion goes much further in Ukraine than in other countries.

    Sure, that is correct.

    But using this still meager sum for creating a professional army would still be a misuse of resources. That is what Georgia did in the runup to 08/08/08 and it didn’t turn out well for them.

    Read More
    • Replies: @AP

    These parties are not nothing, but their takeover is not imminent.

    Now tally their percentage share of the armed men in Ukraine who don’t answer to the government.
     
    A few thousand armed men without mass support aren't going to take over the government. The thought that it could seems to be based the flawed idea that Maidan was not a popular revolution but some coup by a few thousand armed men. Some Russian nationalists may believe that fairytale, but without the support of 40% of the population including a majority in the capital - and opposition of only 25% (mostly far from the capital) Maidan wouldn't have happened. So while Ukraine's far right only enjoys 6% support in the country there is no current risk of any revolution. If they reach the National Front level of support or beyond, it might be another story.

    Or a people with a history of statelessness.

    Ukraine has had a state for most of the past century, which it used to create Ukrainians.
     
    Ukrainian SSR was a semi-autonomous entity, not a state. This entity involved the starvation of millions of its people under Moscow's orders and artificial linguistic Russification.

    Without Ukraine, they rapidly dissipate. At the other extreme, the Jews remained Jews without Israel for a couple of millennia.
     
    Although no one can compete with Jews, the Ukrainian diaspora has the lowest out-marriage rates and strongest language retention across the generations of any eastern European ethnic groups. And this is combined with socioeconomic integration/success, not through poverty in ghettos.

    The alternative to some sort of arrangement or union with Poland would be some sort of arrangement or union with Russia.

    Hmm…in which arrangement would Ukraine be dominated more by its partner?

    Any union with Poland is unworkable except on the basis of complete Ukrainian subjugation precisely because Poland has most of the economy but if anything is slightly overweighed by Ukraine in demographic terms.
     
    Poland and Ukraine are more or less matched in terms of education, industrialization, etc. There is a huge economic disparity. So you believe that when two countries with similar populations and education levels but disparate incomes come together the poorer one becomes completely subjugated? DDR was much less populous than the BRD but somehow I don't see a complete subjugation in that union.

    But, as I has written earlier - the alternative to partnership with Poland is partnership with Russia. Here the economic discrepancy is just as great (at least, when oil prices are high) but Russia with 3.5 times the population of Ukraine has much more ability to dominate, and a more despotic political cultural tradition that makes domination more likely and acceptable (Rus magnates had much more freedom in Poland than dvoryans did in Russia). You really think Poland would subjugate Ukraine than would Russia?

    The fact that Ukrainians are very culturally compatible with Russians, in fact essentially are Russians under the Ukrainian veneer, makes this a moot argument
     
    This kind of wishful thinking is understandable. If you ever have time, you ought to spend a week each in Kiev, Lviv and Warsaw, to see for yourself.

    "Some Polish politician has already stated that Ukraine ought to have nukes… And I suspect that Trump wouldn’t be opposed to this."

    Russia will have the final veto on Ukrainian nuclear weapons capability, and I suspect even Putin, who has otherwise been very weak on Ukraine, will man up enough to exercise it.
     
    I"m sure that the powers-that-be in Poland and Ukraine are aware of this. I'll engage in wild speculation and say that if this expensive endeavor one day moves forward it would be a joint Polish-Ukrainian project, with Poland providing much of the finances and perhaps receiving the product first or concurrently. A better conventional deterrent by Ukraine might be a necessary precondition.

    [military spending] "$5.4 billion goes much further in Ukraine than in other countries."

    Sure, that is correct.

    But using this still meager sum for creating a professional army would still be a misuse of resources. That is what Georgia did in the runup to 08/08/08 and it didn’t turn out well for them.

     
    Why bother having a military at all? Why do Finland or Sweden bother?

    Georgia has about 12% of Ukraine's population. Obviously Ukraine would never win a war against Russia but some day having a professional military capable of inflicting significant and costly damage, resulting in a credible deterrent to military adventures, is possible.

    The Ukrainian military is in pretty bad shape now (though it has improved significantly from a starting point of basically zero in 2014) but this seems like a reasonable goal.
    , @Mr. Hack
    'The fact that Ukrainians are very culturally compatible with Russians, in fact essentially are Russians under the Ukrainian veneer, makes this a moot argument.'

    Really? Is this the best that can be expected from one who is known for his great breadth of knowledge and supposed intellectual curiosity and honesty? Sounds like something taken directly from the early 20th century playbook of the notorious Black Hundreds.

    'The Black Hundreds denied the existence of a Ukrainian nation, defined Ukrainians as Russians,[5] and attracted the support of ethnic Ukrainian Russophiles who considered themselves Russian.[6] The Black Hundred movement actively campaigned against what it considered to be Ukrainian separatism, as well as against promoting Ukrainian culture and language in general, and against the works of Ukrainian poet Taras Shevchenko in particular.[7] In Odessa, the Black Hundreds shut down the local branch of the Ukrainian Prosvita society, an organization that was dedicated to spreading literacy in the Ukrainian language and Ukrainian cultural awareness.[6]'
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Hundreds

    Wake up Anatoly - this is the early part o the 21st century and it's way past the time to question the uniqueness and viability of the Ukrainian nation as something separate from the Russian one. It's surprising to see how somebody of your stature can still cling to these politically motivated tropes of a bygone century...
  26. @Quartermaster
    Sure. You love Ukraine. So does Putin. He loves it so much he wishes to bring back under Russia's thumb.

    Much of your article is little more than a farrago of nonsense and stupidity. I could respond to the stupidity, but I'd simply end up copying the entire article into block quotes.

    Like Saker, you know nothing more than what Putin vomits through his propaganda organs.

    It really doesn’t help that Ukraine is actively trying to be “rightist” while seeking to ingratiating themselves with the uber-liberal entity that is the European Union. Come on, the parody writes itself.

    Ukraine’s a mess of contradictions that is actively self-destructing. How do you expect a Russian nationalist such as AK NOT to mock it?

    Read More
    • Replies: @iffen
    a Russian nationalist such as AK NOT to mock it

    Why would a Russian nationalist be required to mock Ukrainian nationalism?
  27. @AP
    It's nice to see that the truth hurts you so much that you have to cling to the overfilled landfill problem in order to ignore the other factors, such as improving economy, booming construction, low crime, etc.

    Here is the best of Lviv, in pictures:

    http://varlamov.ru/1085938.html

    Here is the worst of Lviv, in pictures:

    http://varlamov.ru/1085062.html

    So dysfunctional :-)


    a country that possesses nuclear technology it could share with Poland
     
    As Karlin wrote, correctly, "Ukraine does have the technical capacity and human capital to do this."

    I suppose this contradicts your fantasy?

    It’s nice to see that the truth hurts you so much that you have to cling to the overfilled landfill problem in order to ignore the other factors, such as improving economy, booming construction, low crime, etc.

    I wouldn’t be ignoring it if there was some evidence for it beside the ukro-propaganda and your enthusiasm.

    And stories like this one would not be appearing in Western media, if Galicia had a real construction boom.

    Poland Can’t Get Enough of Ukrainian Migrants

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-03-06/million-migrants-fleeing-putin-score-a-policy-jackpot-for-poland

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    • Replies: @iffen
    almost half of employers sought out Ukrainians because no local hires were available,

    Did the employers check for Polish employees in London?
  28. @Felix Keverich

    It’s nice to see that the truth hurts you so much that you have to cling to the overfilled landfill problem in order to ignore the other factors, such as improving economy, booming construction, low crime, etc.
     
    I wouldn't be ignoring it if there was some evidence for it beside the ukro-propaganda and your enthusiasm.

    And stories like this one would not be appearing in Western media, if Galicia had a real construction boom.

    Poland Can’t Get Enough of Ukrainian Migrants

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-03-06/million-migrants-fleeing-putin-score-a-policy-jackpot-for-poland

    almost half of employers sought out Ukrainians because no local hires were available,

    Did the employers check for Polish employees in London?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anon 2
    It is widely expected that due to Brexit 100-200,000 Polish
    workers will return to Poland thus alleviating the labor
    shortage somewhat. Moreover, again due to Brexit, Britain
    is planning to move about 30,000 jobs in banking and finance
    to Warsaw this year alone, and thousands more next year and
    beyond. Poland is seeking to become the finance and banking
    capital of Central Europe. Polish and British elites are finding
    they are temperamentally compatible, what with the vestiges
    of the szlachta (Polish-Lithuanian nobility) now returning to
    power in Poland, and the old aristocratic families like the Czartoryskis,
    that were scattered by WW II, returning to the home country
    and refurbishing their palaces and country manors. Where will Britain
    move its banking? France? Are you serious? Britain and France
    have never seen eye to eye. Besides, Paris is becoming a city under
    siege. Frankfurt? To some extent but then again the Brits will say they
    didn't win the war to be dominated by the Huns. Hence Poland (which
    already had a stock exchange 400-500 years ago) will get a lot of the
    banking business.
  29. I wouldn’t be ignoring it if there was some evidence for it beside the ukro-propaganda and your enthusiasm

    I posted pics of the city by a Russian blogger. You can guess how “dysfunctional” the city is by those, if you don’t believe various western or Ukrainian sources.

    http://www.economist.com/blogs/freeexchange/2016/01/lviv-not-donetsk

    But western Ukraine is clearly doing decently. In the first three quarters of 2015 Lviv, a city in the west from where your correspondent is writing this, had one of the biggest jumps in employment of any province in Ukraine. And construction is doing rather well (luxury flats are popping up across the city and hipster bars are opening).

    I know I know, Economist is part of the propaganda conspiracy :-)

    It looks like some of the new construction is hitting the old Jewish ghetto:

    http://www.jewishheritage.org.ua/en/5506/illegal-construction-in-the-jewish-ghetto-in-lviv.html

    Zionist conspiracy, naturally.

    And stories like this one would not be appearing in Western media, if Galicia had a real construction boom.

    Poland Can’t Get Enough of Ukrainian Migrants

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-03-06/million-migrants-fleeing-putin-score-a-policy-jackpot-for-poland

    There are about 10 million people in western Ukraine, most of whom are not Galicians.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Felix Keverich

    And construction is doing rather well (luxury flats are popping up across the city and hipster bars are opening).

     

    Yes, that's a typical propaganda statement. I remember reading statements like this in articles about Georgia 10 years ago. A single hotel opened in Tbilisi was touted as evidence of "economic boom", and pro-Western leadership was credited for making it possible. These articles stopped when Saakashvili was overthrown.

    A real economic recovery/construction boom would create enough jobs to bring some of these millions of migrants home - don't you think? Unless you're talking about a "construction boom", which is so incredibly localised (and limited to hipster bars) as to render it irrelevant in the bigger picture of the Ukrainian economy, which remains very dire.
  30. @AP

    What do you make of the absurd extent of corruption in these countries? Mostly a post-Sovok habit?
     
    Basically, yes. Within Ukraine this is mitigated somewhat by the "Habsburg effect" in those lands that had been part of Austria.

    Ukraine has always been corrupt, as long as I can remember. During the Soviet times, the corruptions was somewhat restricted by the central Soviet government.

    Since independence, the local boys decided that could do anything they wanted, since the Big Brother was no longer watching. So, they squandered the Soviet inheritance quickly and effectively. Ukraine was the richest republic in the Soviet Union, significantly richer than Russia proper. There is nothing left of it now.

    I am not sure where exactly you observed that “Hubsburg effect”, but today’s Ukraine is doing worse than the Central Asia, which has not had a chance at all to benefit from the civilizing influence of being a part of Austria.

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    • Replies: @AP

    Ukraine has always been corrupt, as long as I can remember. During the Soviet times, the corruptions was somewhat restricted by the central Soviet government
     
    Ukraine's corruption was worse than Russia's but not as bad as Central Asia's. Ukraine's corrupt elite was, of course, mostly from southern and eastern Ukraine.

    Ukraine was the richest republic in the Soviet Union, significantly richer than Russia proper.
     
    Not true.

    In 1990 Ukraine's nominal per capita income was $1,570, and Russia's was $3,485. It was half of Russia's. Ukraine was also poorer than Belarus ($1,704).

    In 1890 Austrian Galicia had a per capita income in 2010 dollars of $1947 - compared to $1,550 for Russia.


    I am not sure where exactly you observed that “Hubsburg effect”,
     
    Read the link and educate yourself:

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/habsburg-empire-territories-europe-have-higher-trust-in-justice-systems-a6893946.html

    I'm not the author.

  31. As far as this “galicization” policy continues, the Ukraine will be kept as a dysfunctional (or even a failed) state. Ukrainian extreme-nationalists will have to understand that their reckless politics are counter-productive for cementing a nation. Ukraine is a rather large country with over 40 million people with an heterogeneous cultural heritage. The “forced homogenization” might have a limited success in central Ukraine (Malorossiya) but it will increase the level of resentment on the south and the east (Novorossiya). This, in turn, hinders the stability of the state because can be kept only by continuous repression, assuring endless internal tensions and the current slow-pace downturn.

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  32. @AP

    I wouldn’t be ignoring it if there was some evidence for it beside the ukro-propaganda and your enthusiasm
     
    I posted pics of the city by a Russian blogger. You can guess how "dysfunctional" the city is by those, if you don't believe various western or Ukrainian sources.

    http://www.economist.com/blogs/freeexchange/2016/01/lviv-not-donetsk

    But western Ukraine is clearly doing decently. In the first three quarters of 2015 Lviv, a city in the west from where your correspondent is writing this, had one of the biggest jumps in employment of any province in Ukraine. And construction is doing rather well (luxury flats are popping up across the city and hipster bars are opening).
     
    I know I know, Economist is part of the propaganda conspiracy :-)

    It looks like some of the new construction is hitting the old Jewish ghetto:

    http://www.jewishheritage.org.ua/en/5506/illegal-construction-in-the-jewish-ghetto-in-lviv.html

    Zionist conspiracy, naturally.

    And stories like this one would not be appearing in Western media, if Galicia had a real construction boom.

    Poland Can’t Get Enough of Ukrainian Migrants

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-03-06/million-migrants-fleeing-putin-score-a-policy-jackpot-for-poland
     
    There are about 10 million people in western Ukraine, most of whom are not Galicians.

    And construction is doing rather well (luxury flats are popping up across the city and hipster bars are opening).

    Yes, that’s a typical propaganda statement. I remember reading statements like this in articles about Georgia 10 years ago. A single hotel opened in Tbilisi was touted as evidence of “economic boom”, and pro-Western leadership was credited for making it possible. These articles stopped when Saakashvili was overthrown.

    A real economic recovery/construction boom would create enough jobs to bring some of these millions of migrants home – don’t you think? Unless you’re talking about a “construction boom”, which is so incredibly localised (and limited to hipster bars) as to render it irrelevant in the bigger picture of the Ukrainian economy, which remains very dire.

    Read More
    • Replies: @AP

    Yes, that’s a typical propaganda statement.
     
    Here are pics of many new and under construction buildings in Lviv:

    http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?p=128805242

    Lviv is Ukraine's 6th largest city but in 3rd place in terms of new building construction, behind only Kiev and Odessa. The small Galician city of Ivano-Frankivsk is in 4th place. Ivano-Frankivsk is Ukraine's 31st largest city.

    A real economic recovery/construction boom would create enough jobs to bring some of these millions of migrants home – don’t you think?
     
    Ukraine has 42 million people and Lviv only 780,000 - and salaries are much lower than in Poland.

    Lviv oblast had a very slight net in-migration rather than outmigration in January 2017 (about 300 people) though this figure might not take into account some people who unofficially left. Lvvi city accounts for only about 1/3 of the oblast's 2.5 million population.

    Some Lviv oblast economic stats:

    http://www.lv.ukrstat.gov.ua/ukr/si/express/2017/v3306_56.pdf

    Exports up 49.4% in January 2017 compared to January 2016; imports up 30.7%. Agriculture and electronics dominate the exports. Some new plants are scheduled to go online this year so improvement should continue.
  33. @Anatoly Karlin

    These parties are not nothing, but their takeover is not imminent.
     
    Now tally their percentage share of the armed men in Ukraine who don't answer to the government.

    Or a people with a history of statelessness.
     
    Ukraine has had a state for most of the past century, which it used to create Ukrainians. Without Ukraine, they rapidly dissipate. At the other extreme, the Jews remained Jews without Israel for a couple of millennia.

    The alternative to some sort of arrangement or union with Poland would be some sort of arrangement or union with Russia.

    Hmm…in which arrangement would Ukraine be dominated more by its partner?
     
    Any union with Poland is unworkable except on the basis of complete Ukrainian subjugation precisely because Poland has most of the economy but if anything is slightly overweighed by Ukraine in demographic terms.

    The fact that Ukrainians are very culturally compatible with Russians, in fact essentially are Russians under the Ukrainian veneer, makes this a moot argument.

    You are being facetious? The wise thing would be to recognize them as occupied territories and cut off all non-beneficial contact (I guess coal importation only, nothing else).
     
    Of course not.

    Attacking Donbass, or even better Crimea, is the surest way to put Ukraine out of its existential misery. At least on the territories where it doesn't belong.

    Some Polish politician has already stated that Ukraine ought to have nukes... And I suspect that Trump wouldn’t be opposed to this.
     
    Russia will have the final veto on Ukrainian nuclear weapons capability, and I suspect even Putin, who has otherwise been very weak on Ukraine, will man up enough to exercise it.

    $5.4 billion goes much further in Ukraine than in other countries.
     
    Sure, that is correct.

    But using this still meager sum for creating a professional army would still be a misuse of resources. That is what Georgia did in the runup to 08/08/08 and it didn't turn out well for them.

    These parties are not nothing, but their takeover is not imminent.

    Now tally their percentage share of the armed men in Ukraine who don’t answer to the government.

    A few thousand armed men without mass support aren’t going to take over the government. The thought that it could seems to be based the flawed idea that Maidan was not a popular revolution but some coup by a few thousand armed men. Some Russian nationalists may believe that fairytale, but without the support of 40% of the population including a majority in the capital – and opposition of only 25% (mostly far from the capital) Maidan wouldn’t have happened. So while Ukraine’s far right only enjoys 6% support in the country there is no current risk of any revolution. If they reach the National Front level of support or beyond, it might be another story.

    Or a people with a history of statelessness.

    Ukraine has had a state for most of the past century, which it used to create Ukrainians.

    Ukrainian SSR was a semi-autonomous entity, not a state. This entity involved the starvation of millions of its people under Moscow’s orders and artificial linguistic Russification.

    Without Ukraine, they rapidly dissipate. At the other extreme, the Jews remained Jews without Israel for a couple of millennia.

    Although no one can compete with Jews, the Ukrainian diaspora has the lowest out-marriage rates and strongest language retention across the generations of any eastern European ethnic groups. And this is combined with socioeconomic integration/success, not through poverty in ghettos.

    The alternative to some sort of arrangement or union with Poland would be some sort of arrangement or union with Russia.

    Hmm…in which arrangement would Ukraine be dominated more by its partner?

    Any union with Poland is unworkable except on the basis of complete Ukrainian subjugation precisely because Poland has most of the economy but if anything is slightly overweighed by Ukraine in demographic terms.

    Poland and Ukraine are more or less matched in terms of education, industrialization, etc. There is a huge economic disparity. So you believe that when two countries with similar populations and education levels but disparate incomes come together the poorer one becomes completely subjugated? DDR was much less populous than the BRD but somehow I don’t see a complete subjugation in that union.

    But, as I has written earlier – the alternative to partnership with Poland is partnership with Russia. Here the economic discrepancy is just as great (at least, when oil prices are high) but Russia with 3.5 times the population of Ukraine has much more ability to dominate, and a more despotic political cultural tradition that makes domination more likely and acceptable (Rus magnates had much more freedom in Poland than dvoryans did in Russia). You really think Poland would subjugate Ukraine than would Russia?

    The fact that Ukrainians are very culturally compatible with Russians, in fact essentially are Russians under the Ukrainian veneer, makes this a moot argument

    This kind of wishful thinking is understandable. If you ever have time, you ought to spend a week each in Kiev, Lviv and Warsaw, to see for yourself.

    “Some Polish politician has already stated that Ukraine ought to have nukes… And I suspect that Trump wouldn’t be opposed to this.”

    Russia will have the final veto on Ukrainian nuclear weapons capability, and I suspect even Putin, who has otherwise been very weak on Ukraine, will man up enough to exercise it.

    I”m sure that the powers-that-be in Poland and Ukraine are aware of this. I’ll engage in wild speculation and say that if this expensive endeavor one day moves forward it would be a joint Polish-Ukrainian project, with Poland providing much of the finances and perhaps receiving the product first or concurrently. A better conventional deterrent by Ukraine might be a necessary precondition.

    [military spending] “$5.4 billion goes much further in Ukraine than in other countries.”

    Sure, that is correct.

    But using this still meager sum for creating a professional army would still be a misuse of resources. That is what Georgia did in the runup to 08/08/08 and it didn’t turn out well for them.

    Why bother having a military at all? Why do Finland or Sweden bother?

    Georgia has about 12% of Ukraine’s population. Obviously Ukraine would never win a war against Russia but some day having a professional military capable of inflicting significant and costly damage, resulting in a credible deterrent to military adventures, is possible.

    The Ukrainian military is in pretty bad shape now (though it has improved significantly from a starting point of basically zero in 2014) but this seems like a reasonable goal.

    Read More
    • Replies: @utu
    "DDR was much less populous than the BRD but somehow I don’t see a complete subjugation in that union."

    I see you do not know the realities of Germanys' unification. It was a total domination by BRD. Nothing what DDR had (in terms of achievements and advantages) survived the unification.

    But obviously it is not analogy for a possible Polish Ukrainian unification. Neither in Poland nor Ukraine nobody desires it or dreams it. Both nations realize the they can't mix because the enmity is too strong. A million or so of legal and illegal Ukrainian workers in Poland are tolerated because they keep a very low profile and are useful for economy. But the enmity can be rekindled very easily by some forces (like Russia) if needed.
    , @annamaria
    "Russia with 3.5 times the population of Ukraine has much more ability to dominate, and a more despotic political cultural tradition that makes domination more likely and acceptable (Rus magnates had much more freedom in Poland than dvoryans did in Russia). You really think Poland would subjugate Ukraine than would Russia?"
    Are you kidding?
    1. Have you heard about Bolshevik revolution that has basically eliminated/dispersed the Russian aristocracy? The USSR used to be quite strict towards progeny of "formerly privileged" and made numerous hurdles for getting education and positions of influence for children of nobility and clergy. (The most reliable approach was physical elimination, of course). The USSR was the first Affirmative Action state. And this state policy was not for the benefit of nobility.
    2. There was a time when the Slavs from the west begged Russian state to save them from the Catholic oppressors. The Russians hesitated because the acceptance of the brothers-Ukrainians would mean a war with the proud Polish schlyakhta. So, why had the Ukrainians looked for protection in the "barbaric" Russia instead of making peace with the less "despotic political cultural tradition" of Poland? https://www.britannica.com/event/Pereyaslav-Agreement
    , @Anatoly Karlin

    A few thousand armed men without mass support aren’t going to take over the government. The thought that it could seems to be based the flawed idea that Maidan was not a popular revolution but some coup by a few thousand armed men.
     
    It was both. The revolution wouldn't have happened without the few thousand armed men (or really just the few dozen who fired at Berkut from Hotel Ukraina).

    Likewise, a few dozen armed activists have repeatedly forced the government's hand into doing things it probably didn't want to do (most recently: Legalizing the Donbass blockade) because Poroshenko doesn't have the guts or the authority to clamp down on them.

    This entity involved the starvation of millions of its people under Moscow’s orders and artificial linguistic Russification.
     
    It's the other way round. Ukraine naturally drifted towards Russification whenever there was free competition in books, media, etc., because of its greater prestige and far larger amount of content. The only reason Ukrainian still exists outside the rural far west, as opposed to being largely a historical relic like Cornish or Gascon, is because of Soviet support for Ukrainian (which varied in its intensity over time).

    You really think Poland would subjugate Ukraine than would Russia?
     
    No, I certainly don't. Which is why no substantive Polish-Ukrainian union will happen anytime soon, unless I underestimate even Lvovites' love of masochism. :)

    This kind of wishful thinking is understandable. If you ever have time, you ought to spend a week each in Kiev, Lviv and Warsaw, to see for yourself.
     
    Yes, as I already said, thanks but no thanks.

    There are many other places I want to visit first, and I am certainly not going to Ukraine under its current anti-Russian regime.

    I”m sure that the powers-that-be in Poland and Ukraine are aware of this...
     
    Well, whatever, it is a theoretical possibility far in the future, for now and for the next decade it is firmly sci-fi.

    The nationalist manifesto talks of "предлагаем четкий план первоочередных шагов" (priority tasks).

    Georgia has about 12% of Ukraine’s population. Obviously Ukraine would never win a war against Russia but some day having a professional military capable of inflicting significant and costly damage, resulting in a credible deterrent to military adventures, is possible.
     
    My point is more that with Ukraine's finances and position, it would be far more realistic to maintain a mass conscript army with cheap, proven Soviet weapons instead of funneling most of those meager funds to pay for professionals (again, we are talking of the here and now; "первоочередных шагов") and hi-tech Western toys (what they have been getting from the West for free has mostly been outdated crap).

    Of course, one major problem is that this army would, in the current circumstances, dissipate on first contact with the Russian Army. But here the Ukrainian nationalists have an advantage over the current government. The people they look up to knew how to deal with shirkers and deserters (15,000 German soldiers executed for desertion in 1944), and the dictatorial regime they will inevitably build up to shore up their rule will also be able to impose such punishments, if need be.
  34. @Felix Keverich

    And construction is doing rather well (luxury flats are popping up across the city and hipster bars are opening).

     

    Yes, that's a typical propaganda statement. I remember reading statements like this in articles about Georgia 10 years ago. A single hotel opened in Tbilisi was touted as evidence of "economic boom", and pro-Western leadership was credited for making it possible. These articles stopped when Saakashvili was overthrown.

    A real economic recovery/construction boom would create enough jobs to bring some of these millions of migrants home - don't you think? Unless you're talking about a "construction boom", which is so incredibly localised (and limited to hipster bars) as to render it irrelevant in the bigger picture of the Ukrainian economy, which remains very dire.

    Yes, that’s a typical propaganda statement.

    Here are pics of many new and under construction buildings in Lviv:

    http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?p=128805242

    Lviv is Ukraine’s 6th largest city but in 3rd place in terms of new building construction, behind only Kiev and Odessa. The small Galician city of Ivano-Frankivsk is in 4th place. Ivano-Frankivsk is Ukraine’s 31st largest city.

    A real economic recovery/construction boom would create enough jobs to bring some of these millions of migrants home – don’t you think?

    Ukraine has 42 million people and Lviv only 780,000 – and salaries are much lower than in Poland.

    Lviv oblast had a very slight net in-migration rather than outmigration in January 2017 (about 300 people) though this figure might not take into account some people who unofficially left. Lvvi city accounts for only about 1/3 of the oblast’s 2.5 million population.

    Some Lviv oblast economic stats:

    http://www.lv.ukrstat.gov.ua/ukr/si/express/2017/v3306_56.pdf

    Exports up 49.4% in January 2017 compared to January 2016; imports up 30.7%. Agriculture and electronics dominate the exports. Some new plants are scheduled to go online this year so improvement should continue.

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  35. @EugeneGur
    Ukraine has always been corrupt, as long as I can remember. During the Soviet times, the corruptions was somewhat restricted by the central Soviet government.

    Since independence, the local boys decided that could do anything they wanted, since the Big Brother was no longer watching. So, they squandered the Soviet inheritance quickly and effectively. Ukraine was the richest republic in the Soviet Union, significantly richer than Russia proper. There is nothing left of it now.

    I am not sure where exactly you observed that "Hubsburg effect", but today's Ukraine is doing worse than the Central Asia, which has not had a chance at all to benefit from the civilizing influence of being a part of Austria.

    Ukraine has always been corrupt, as long as I can remember. During the Soviet times, the corruptions was somewhat restricted by the central Soviet government

    Ukraine’s corruption was worse than Russia’s but not as bad as Central Asia’s. Ukraine’s corrupt elite was, of course, mostly from southern and eastern Ukraine.

    Ukraine was the richest republic in the Soviet Union, significantly richer than Russia proper.

    Not true.

    In 1990 Ukraine’s nominal per capita income was $1,570, and Russia’s was $3,485. It was half of Russia’s. Ukraine was also poorer than Belarus ($1,704).

    In 1890 Austrian Galicia had a per capita income in 2010 dollars of $1947 – compared to $1,550 for Russia.

    I am not sure where exactly you observed that “Hubsburg effect”,

    Read the link and educate yourself:

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/habsburg-empire-territories-europe-have-higher-trust-in-justice-systems-a6893946.html

    I’m not the author.

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  36. @iffen
    almost half of employers sought out Ukrainians because no local hires were available,

    Did the employers check for Polish employees in London?

    It is widely expected that due to Brexit 100-200,000 Polish
    workers will return to Poland thus alleviating the labor
    shortage somewhat. Moreover, again due to Brexit, Britain
    is planning to move about 30,000 jobs in banking and finance
    to Warsaw this year alone, and thousands more next year and
    beyond. Poland is seeking to become the finance and banking
    capital of Central Europe. Polish and British elites are finding
    they are temperamentally compatible, what with the vestiges
    of the szlachta (Polish-Lithuanian nobility) now returning to
    power in Poland, and the old aristocratic families like the Czartoryskis,
    that were scattered by WW II, returning to the home country
    and refurbishing their palaces and country manors. Where will Britain
    move its banking? France? Are you serious? Britain and France
    have never seen eye to eye. Besides, Paris is becoming a city under
    siege. Frankfurt? To some extent but then again the Brits will say they
    didn’t win the war to be dominated by the Huns. Hence Poland (which
    already had a stock exchange 400-500 years ago) will get a lot of the
    banking business.

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    • Replies: @5371
    [Moreover, again due to Brexit, Britain
    is planning to move about 30,000 jobs in banking and finance
    to Warsaw this year alone, and thousands more next year and
    beyond. ]

    What is this supposed to mean?
  37. @AP

    These parties are not nothing, but their takeover is not imminent.

    Now tally their percentage share of the armed men in Ukraine who don’t answer to the government.
     
    A few thousand armed men without mass support aren't going to take over the government. The thought that it could seems to be based the flawed idea that Maidan was not a popular revolution but some coup by a few thousand armed men. Some Russian nationalists may believe that fairytale, but without the support of 40% of the population including a majority in the capital - and opposition of only 25% (mostly far from the capital) Maidan wouldn't have happened. So while Ukraine's far right only enjoys 6% support in the country there is no current risk of any revolution. If they reach the National Front level of support or beyond, it might be another story.

    Or a people with a history of statelessness.

    Ukraine has had a state for most of the past century, which it used to create Ukrainians.
     
    Ukrainian SSR was a semi-autonomous entity, not a state. This entity involved the starvation of millions of its people under Moscow's orders and artificial linguistic Russification.

    Without Ukraine, they rapidly dissipate. At the other extreme, the Jews remained Jews without Israel for a couple of millennia.
     
    Although no one can compete with Jews, the Ukrainian diaspora has the lowest out-marriage rates and strongest language retention across the generations of any eastern European ethnic groups. And this is combined with socioeconomic integration/success, not through poverty in ghettos.

    The alternative to some sort of arrangement or union with Poland would be some sort of arrangement or union with Russia.

    Hmm…in which arrangement would Ukraine be dominated more by its partner?

    Any union with Poland is unworkable except on the basis of complete Ukrainian subjugation precisely because Poland has most of the economy but if anything is slightly overweighed by Ukraine in demographic terms.
     
    Poland and Ukraine are more or less matched in terms of education, industrialization, etc. There is a huge economic disparity. So you believe that when two countries with similar populations and education levels but disparate incomes come together the poorer one becomes completely subjugated? DDR was much less populous than the BRD but somehow I don't see a complete subjugation in that union.

    But, as I has written earlier - the alternative to partnership with Poland is partnership with Russia. Here the economic discrepancy is just as great (at least, when oil prices are high) but Russia with 3.5 times the population of Ukraine has much more ability to dominate, and a more despotic political cultural tradition that makes domination more likely and acceptable (Rus magnates had much more freedom in Poland than dvoryans did in Russia). You really think Poland would subjugate Ukraine than would Russia?

    The fact that Ukrainians are very culturally compatible with Russians, in fact essentially are Russians under the Ukrainian veneer, makes this a moot argument
     
    This kind of wishful thinking is understandable. If you ever have time, you ought to spend a week each in Kiev, Lviv and Warsaw, to see for yourself.

    "Some Polish politician has already stated that Ukraine ought to have nukes… And I suspect that Trump wouldn’t be opposed to this."

    Russia will have the final veto on Ukrainian nuclear weapons capability, and I suspect even Putin, who has otherwise been very weak on Ukraine, will man up enough to exercise it.
     
    I"m sure that the powers-that-be in Poland and Ukraine are aware of this. I'll engage in wild speculation and say that if this expensive endeavor one day moves forward it would be a joint Polish-Ukrainian project, with Poland providing much of the finances and perhaps receiving the product first or concurrently. A better conventional deterrent by Ukraine might be a necessary precondition.

    [military spending] "$5.4 billion goes much further in Ukraine than in other countries."

    Sure, that is correct.

    But using this still meager sum for creating a professional army would still be a misuse of resources. That is what Georgia did in the runup to 08/08/08 and it didn’t turn out well for them.

     
    Why bother having a military at all? Why do Finland or Sweden bother?

    Georgia has about 12% of Ukraine's population. Obviously Ukraine would never win a war against Russia but some day having a professional military capable of inflicting significant and costly damage, resulting in a credible deterrent to military adventures, is possible.

    The Ukrainian military is in pretty bad shape now (though it has improved significantly from a starting point of basically zero in 2014) but this seems like a reasonable goal.

    “DDR was much less populous than the BRD but somehow I don’t see a complete subjugation in that union.”

    I see you do not know the realities of Germanys’ unification. It was a total domination by BRD. Nothing what DDR had (in terms of achievements and advantages) survived the unification.

    But obviously it is not analogy for a possible Polish Ukrainian unification. Neither in Poland nor Ukraine nobody desires it or dreams it. Both nations realize the they can’t mix because the enmity is too strong. A million or so of legal and illegal Ukrainian workers in Poland are tolerated because they keep a very low profile and are useful for economy. But the enmity can be rekindled very easily by some forces (like Russia) if needed.

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  38. I see you do not know the realities of Germanys’ unification. It was a total domination by BRD. Nothing what DDR had (in terms of achievements and advantages) survived the unification.

    AK was using serfdom as an analogy.

    I imagine Poland could but a lot of Ukraine, on the other hand the two countries have about equal populations, and Ukraine’s oligarchs might buy some things in Poland.

    But obviously it is not analogy for a possible Polish Ukrainian unification. Neither in Poland nor Ukraine nobody desires it or dreams it. Both nations realize the they can’t mix because the enmity is too strong.

    Not really. One can certainly find examples of weirdos and exceptional situations but in general relations are fairly good. There are a lot of mutual Polish-Ukrainian festivals and parties put on by recent immigrants in the USA, for example. Poles visit Lviv fairly often and are treated well. A Polish friend went on such a tour with a group of Poles. There was one obnoxious guy who was talking abut how everything was Polish but otherwise everyone got along, and the Poles were angry with that guy. A recent poll in Ukraine showed that Poland was the most liked country among Ukrainians. If the million or so Ukrainians were relaying stories of mistreatment, this would not have been the case.

    It is, of course, in Russia’s interest to stoke up resentment and hatred. The unfortunate Bandera fixation is the one useful tool the Russians can use, but that isn’t enough.

    A million or so of legal and illegal Ukrainian workers in Poland are tolerated because they keep a very low profile and are useful for economy.

    Because a lot of Poles are doing in Germany or the UK what Ukrainians are doing in Poland, there is a lot of understanding. Ukrainian workers tend to get along well with Poles, there isn’t some kind of tension one sees in the West between Muslims and locals.

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  39. The idea of Intermarium has simmered under the mainstream surface for a while now and is popular in certain circles in the Baltics as well:

    http://thenewnationalism.com/2016/12/27/ideology-of-intermarium/

    It would be a political union of nationstates, not a new federation, of course. Obviously, there are differences in GPD, but what matters is the development of human capital and the ability to formulate similar goals. It might take a certain amount of money to organize a battalion of soldiers in Poland, but a different amount in Ukraine, one amount to raise a scientist in Estonia, another in Belarus. This is all good – what matters is the result. Each country builds its economy and co-operates with the others politically.

    What is interesting is that China with its 16+1 format can actually facilitate the creation of Intermarium:

    http://thenewnationalism.com/2017/02/08/role-of-china-in-the-integration-of-intermarium/

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  40. Ron

    I have just sought a good recent thread on which to make suggestions about your Anon rules and practice even if you are unimpressed by my self-labelling system that would encourage indication of the motive for anonymity.

    As it happens I have found that the anonymous poster on this thread has self labelled himself Anon 2 which is exactly the kind of thing I was going to suggest should be done automatically by software.

    As it is one can have no certainty that the Anonymous whose comment one is reading is the same Anonymous who first posted on the thread. (I set aside your having stated a relevant rule somewhere which no one will find it conveient to consult on the run). There can be no legitimate upside to that.

    Accordingly I suggest that each first use on a thread of each of the accepted forms of Anonymous be labelled e.g. anon1 with the second user to be anon2 and so on. That’s without prejudice to my self labelling proposal that I trust you have received via an older thread.

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  41. @AP

    On March 16, the three main political forces of Ukrainian nationalism – the political party Svoboda, Right Sector, and the National Corpus (i.e. the Azov batallion’s political wing)
     
    As of December, Svoboda was polling at about 5%, just enough to squeeze into parliament. Right Sector was polling at .9% and National Corpus is at .2%. (Jarosh has left Right Sector and has his own party, which is at 1.5%). I doubt there has been a huge change since then. These parties are not nothing, but their takeover is not imminent.

    As unpopular as Poroshenko is, among likely voters he would get 12.5%, compared to 4.4% for Tiahnybok.


    "Define as a priority of state policy the realization of Ukraine’s national interests."

    This is typical for semi-fictional national projects, in which there is no people without a state.
     

    Or a people with a history of statelessness. If a Russian politician said that Russia must "define as a priority of state policy the realization of Russia's national interests" would this be evidence of the "semi-fictional" nature of the Russian national project?

    Moreover, in substance that quote isn't much different from the meaning underlying Trump's famous quote, "We either have a country or we don't...If we have a country we have to have borders. We have borders we have to have laws. We either have a country or we don't and it's that simple."


    ...a resurrection of the Intermarium, a geopolitical vision promoted by interwar Polish leader Józef Piłsudski to unite the countries from the Baltic Sea to the Mediterranean.

    Today, it has mainly become a Ukrainian nationalist obsession.

    It also happens to be even more demented and schizophrenic than Eurasianism (which is at least theoretically realizable, even if its end result will be to turn Russia into Greater Turkestan due to demographic factors).

    Ukraine, with a nominal GDP per capita below that of Nigeria, will be economically dominated by Poland in any such arrangement.
     

    The alternative to some sort of arrangement or union with Poland would be some sort of arrangement or union with Russia.

    Hmm...in which arrangement would Ukraine be dominated more by its partner?


    As such, it is unclear how such a neo-Rzeczpospolita union would even be set up in the first place, unless the Ukrainians decide to keep it real authentic and also return to their old socio-economic status under the old union, i.e. as serfs under the Polish szlachta.
     
    Well, if these are the terms in which you think - again, think about which country would be able to dominate the other, more - Poland, with a lower population than Ukraine and with some democratic/European political constraints, or Russia, a country with three times the population and with a less democratic/more despotic political culture.

    "Recognize [the LDNR] as occupied territories and develop a real plan to liberate Crimea and Donbass. Immediately embark upon economic, informational, and reconaissance-sabotage actions in furtherance of these goals."

    Even better idea.
     

    You are being facetious? The wise thing would be to recognize them as occupied territories and cut off all non-beneficial contact (I guess coal importation only, nothing else). The nationalists - or rather, Kolomoisky - have not done so.

    "Return the right to recreate a nuclear weapons capability as a foundation of national security in light of the violation of the Budapest Memorandum."

    Ukraine does have the technical capacity and human capital to do this.

    Of course, the types of people who rule the West, such as Merkel or Juncker, will absolutely love the idea of nuclearization in a state full of groups of armed extremists roving around.
     

    Some Polish politician has already stated that Ukraine ought to have nukes. There is probably some faint possibility that Ukraine could even help Poland achieve nuclear capability, one day.

    And I suspect that Trump wouldn't be opposed to this.

    But, this would be more of a long-term project.


    "Create a high-tech professional contract army, and a reserve army, based on the territorial principle."

    This is very doable on a $90 billion GDP, by which I mean it’s completely bonkers (even if Ukraine does now spend 6% of that measly figure on its military).
     

    As in the case of Russia, there is a PPP effect involved with regards to military spending. $5.4 billion goes much further in Ukraine than in other countries.

    "Eliminate hostile propaganda from the Ukrainian information space. Cultivate traditional values, strengthen national consciousness. The Ukrainian language should be the only state language."

    But if Ukrainian culture is indeed so powerful, attractive, and natural to the denizens of the western Pontic steppes, why does it need to be imposed through such repressive and illiberal methods?
     

    This is probably aimed largely at the Soviet remnants in the country's east and south.

    Some Polish politician has already stated that Ukraine ought to have nukes. There is probably some faint possibility that Ukraine could even help Poland achieve nuclear capability, one day.

    And I suspect that Trump wouldn’t be opposed to this.

    The same country that wants to bomb Iran back to the Stone Age to prevent it from acquiring nuclear weapons wants to illegally proliferate nuclear weapons in Europe? Tell me more!

    Poland and the Ukraine cannot legally acquire nuclear weapons under the NNPT that both of them ratified. The US cannot legally place its own nuclear weapons in either country under the treaty it ratified. There is no way around it.

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  42. @Anatoly Karlin
    How is the Russian Army's appointment with destruction on the mountains of Israel coming along?

    Hey, don’t you read Ezekial (or is Ezekiek?)? Don’t you know that GogMagog is Russia? True that Ezechiel lived 2500 years ago, but doesn’t Bibi know better?

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  43. @AP

    These parties are not nothing, but their takeover is not imminent.

    Now tally their percentage share of the armed men in Ukraine who don’t answer to the government.
     
    A few thousand armed men without mass support aren't going to take over the government. The thought that it could seems to be based the flawed idea that Maidan was not a popular revolution but some coup by a few thousand armed men. Some Russian nationalists may believe that fairytale, but without the support of 40% of the population including a majority in the capital - and opposition of only 25% (mostly far from the capital) Maidan wouldn't have happened. So while Ukraine's far right only enjoys 6% support in the country there is no current risk of any revolution. If they reach the National Front level of support or beyond, it might be another story.

    Or a people with a history of statelessness.

    Ukraine has had a state for most of the past century, which it used to create Ukrainians.
     
    Ukrainian SSR was a semi-autonomous entity, not a state. This entity involved the starvation of millions of its people under Moscow's orders and artificial linguistic Russification.

    Without Ukraine, they rapidly dissipate. At the other extreme, the Jews remained Jews without Israel for a couple of millennia.
     
    Although no one can compete with Jews, the Ukrainian diaspora has the lowest out-marriage rates and strongest language retention across the generations of any eastern European ethnic groups. And this is combined with socioeconomic integration/success, not through poverty in ghettos.

    The alternative to some sort of arrangement or union with Poland would be some sort of arrangement or union with Russia.

    Hmm…in which arrangement would Ukraine be dominated more by its partner?

    Any union with Poland is unworkable except on the basis of complete Ukrainian subjugation precisely because Poland has most of the economy but if anything is slightly overweighed by Ukraine in demographic terms.
     
    Poland and Ukraine are more or less matched in terms of education, industrialization, etc. There is a huge economic disparity. So you believe that when two countries with similar populations and education levels but disparate incomes come together the poorer one becomes completely subjugated? DDR was much less populous than the BRD but somehow I don't see a complete subjugation in that union.

    But, as I has written earlier - the alternative to partnership with Poland is partnership with Russia. Here the economic discrepancy is just as great (at least, when oil prices are high) but Russia with 3.5 times the population of Ukraine has much more ability to dominate, and a more despotic political cultural tradition that makes domination more likely and acceptable (Rus magnates had much more freedom in Poland than dvoryans did in Russia). You really think Poland would subjugate Ukraine than would Russia?

    The fact that Ukrainians are very culturally compatible with Russians, in fact essentially are Russians under the Ukrainian veneer, makes this a moot argument
     
    This kind of wishful thinking is understandable. If you ever have time, you ought to spend a week each in Kiev, Lviv and Warsaw, to see for yourself.

    "Some Polish politician has already stated that Ukraine ought to have nukes… And I suspect that Trump wouldn’t be opposed to this."

    Russia will have the final veto on Ukrainian nuclear weapons capability, and I suspect even Putin, who has otherwise been very weak on Ukraine, will man up enough to exercise it.
     
    I"m sure that the powers-that-be in Poland and Ukraine are aware of this. I'll engage in wild speculation and say that if this expensive endeavor one day moves forward it would be a joint Polish-Ukrainian project, with Poland providing much of the finances and perhaps receiving the product first or concurrently. A better conventional deterrent by Ukraine might be a necessary precondition.

    [military spending] "$5.4 billion goes much further in Ukraine than in other countries."

    Sure, that is correct.

    But using this still meager sum for creating a professional army would still be a misuse of resources. That is what Georgia did in the runup to 08/08/08 and it didn’t turn out well for them.

     
    Why bother having a military at all? Why do Finland or Sweden bother?

    Georgia has about 12% of Ukraine's population. Obviously Ukraine would never win a war against Russia but some day having a professional military capable of inflicting significant and costly damage, resulting in a credible deterrent to military adventures, is possible.

    The Ukrainian military is in pretty bad shape now (though it has improved significantly from a starting point of basically zero in 2014) but this seems like a reasonable goal.

    “Russia with 3.5 times the population of Ukraine has much more ability to dominate, and a more despotic political cultural tradition that makes domination more likely and acceptable (Rus magnates had much more freedom in Poland than dvoryans did in Russia). You really think Poland would subjugate Ukraine than would Russia?”
    Are you kidding?
    1. Have you heard about Bolshevik revolution that has basically eliminated/dispersed the Russian aristocracy? The USSR used to be quite strict towards progeny of “formerly privileged” and made numerous hurdles for getting education and positions of influence for children of nobility and clergy. (The most reliable approach was physical elimination, of course). The USSR was the first Affirmative Action state. And this state policy was not for the benefit of nobility.
    2. There was a time when the Slavs from the west begged Russian state to save them from the Catholic oppressors. The Russians hesitated because the acceptance of the brothers-Ukrainians would mean a war with the proud Polish schlyakhta. So, why had the Ukrainians looked for protection in the “barbaric” Russia instead of making peace with the less “despotic political cultural tradition” of Poland? https://www.britannica.com/event/Pereyaslav-Agreement

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    • Replies: @Seraphim
    @So, why had the Ukrainians looked for protection in the “barbaric” Russia...

    Because the creation of the Kievan Rus state was from the start the result of the fight against the predatory Khaganate of the Khazars. The alliance of the Szlachta with the Jewish usurers was a revamping of the Khaganate for the continuation of the inhuman exploitation of the Slavs (it is not by chance that the name Slav became in the West 'sclavus'=slave. The bulk of slaves sold on the Western and Muslim markets were kidnapped from the mass of Eastern Slavs (Russians).
    , @szopen
    You seem to forget that more than half of the opressors were polonised Ukrainians. Wiśniowiecki father or grandfather was cossack (and orthodox). Chmielnicki was from poor szlachta (non-polonised) and amongst cossacks there were quite a lot of szlachta too.

    Moreover, "Slavs from the west" ARE catholic.
  44. @annamaria
    "Russia with 3.5 times the population of Ukraine has much more ability to dominate, and a more despotic political cultural tradition that makes domination more likely and acceptable (Rus magnates had much more freedom in Poland than dvoryans did in Russia). You really think Poland would subjugate Ukraine than would Russia?"
    Are you kidding?
    1. Have you heard about Bolshevik revolution that has basically eliminated/dispersed the Russian aristocracy? The USSR used to be quite strict towards progeny of "formerly privileged" and made numerous hurdles for getting education and positions of influence for children of nobility and clergy. (The most reliable approach was physical elimination, of course). The USSR was the first Affirmative Action state. And this state policy was not for the benefit of nobility.
    2. There was a time when the Slavs from the west begged Russian state to save them from the Catholic oppressors. The Russians hesitated because the acceptance of the brothers-Ukrainians would mean a war with the proud Polish schlyakhta. So, why had the Ukrainians looked for protection in the "barbaric" Russia instead of making peace with the less "despotic political cultural tradition" of Poland? https://www.britannica.com/event/Pereyaslav-Agreement

    @So, why had the Ukrainians looked for protection in the “barbaric” Russia…

    Because the creation of the Kievan Rus state was from the start the result of the fight against the predatory Khaganate of the Khazars. The alliance of the Szlachta with the Jewish usurers was a revamping of the Khaganate for the continuation of the inhuman exploitation of the Slavs (it is not by chance that the name Slav became in the West ‘sclavus’=slave. The bulk of slaves sold on the Western and Muslim markets were kidnapped from the mass of Eastern Slavs (Russians).

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  45. @AP

    These parties are not nothing, but their takeover is not imminent.

    Now tally their percentage share of the armed men in Ukraine who don’t answer to the government.
     
    A few thousand armed men without mass support aren't going to take over the government. The thought that it could seems to be based the flawed idea that Maidan was not a popular revolution but some coup by a few thousand armed men. Some Russian nationalists may believe that fairytale, but without the support of 40% of the population including a majority in the capital - and opposition of only 25% (mostly far from the capital) Maidan wouldn't have happened. So while Ukraine's far right only enjoys 6% support in the country there is no current risk of any revolution. If they reach the National Front level of support or beyond, it might be another story.

    Or a people with a history of statelessness.

    Ukraine has had a state for most of the past century, which it used to create Ukrainians.
     
    Ukrainian SSR was a semi-autonomous entity, not a state. This entity involved the starvation of millions of its people under Moscow's orders and artificial linguistic Russification.

    Without Ukraine, they rapidly dissipate. At the other extreme, the Jews remained Jews without Israel for a couple of millennia.
     
    Although no one can compete with Jews, the Ukrainian diaspora has the lowest out-marriage rates and strongest language retention across the generations of any eastern European ethnic groups. And this is combined with socioeconomic integration/success, not through poverty in ghettos.

    The alternative to some sort of arrangement or union with Poland would be some sort of arrangement or union with Russia.

    Hmm…in which arrangement would Ukraine be dominated more by its partner?

    Any union with Poland is unworkable except on the basis of complete Ukrainian subjugation precisely because Poland has most of the economy but if anything is slightly overweighed by Ukraine in demographic terms.
     
    Poland and Ukraine are more or less matched in terms of education, industrialization, etc. There is a huge economic disparity. So you believe that when two countries with similar populations and education levels but disparate incomes come together the poorer one becomes completely subjugated? DDR was much less populous than the BRD but somehow I don't see a complete subjugation in that union.

    But, as I has written earlier - the alternative to partnership with Poland is partnership with Russia. Here the economic discrepancy is just as great (at least, when oil prices are high) but Russia with 3.5 times the population of Ukraine has much more ability to dominate, and a more despotic political cultural tradition that makes domination more likely and acceptable (Rus magnates had much more freedom in Poland than dvoryans did in Russia). You really think Poland would subjugate Ukraine than would Russia?

    The fact that Ukrainians are very culturally compatible with Russians, in fact essentially are Russians under the Ukrainian veneer, makes this a moot argument
     
    This kind of wishful thinking is understandable. If you ever have time, you ought to spend a week each in Kiev, Lviv and Warsaw, to see for yourself.

    "Some Polish politician has already stated that Ukraine ought to have nukes… And I suspect that Trump wouldn’t be opposed to this."

    Russia will have the final veto on Ukrainian nuclear weapons capability, and I suspect even Putin, who has otherwise been very weak on Ukraine, will man up enough to exercise it.
     
    I"m sure that the powers-that-be in Poland and Ukraine are aware of this. I'll engage in wild speculation and say that if this expensive endeavor one day moves forward it would be a joint Polish-Ukrainian project, with Poland providing much of the finances and perhaps receiving the product first or concurrently. A better conventional deterrent by Ukraine might be a necessary precondition.

    [military spending] "$5.4 billion goes much further in Ukraine than in other countries."

    Sure, that is correct.

    But using this still meager sum for creating a professional army would still be a misuse of resources. That is what Georgia did in the runup to 08/08/08 and it didn’t turn out well for them.

     
    Why bother having a military at all? Why do Finland or Sweden bother?

    Georgia has about 12% of Ukraine's population. Obviously Ukraine would never win a war against Russia but some day having a professional military capable of inflicting significant and costly damage, resulting in a credible deterrent to military adventures, is possible.

    The Ukrainian military is in pretty bad shape now (though it has improved significantly from a starting point of basically zero in 2014) but this seems like a reasonable goal.

    A few thousand armed men without mass support aren’t going to take over the government. The thought that it could seems to be based the flawed idea that Maidan was not a popular revolution but some coup by a few thousand armed men.

    It was both. The revolution wouldn’t have happened without the few thousand armed men (or really just the few dozen who fired at Berkut from Hotel Ukraina).

    Likewise, a few dozen armed activists have repeatedly forced the government’s hand into doing things it probably didn’t want to do (most recently: Legalizing the Donbass blockade) because Poroshenko doesn’t have the guts or the authority to clamp down on them.

    This entity involved the starvation of millions of its people under Moscow’s orders and artificial linguistic Russification.

    It’s the other way round. Ukraine naturally drifted towards Russification whenever there was free competition in books, media, etc., because of its greater prestige and far larger amount of content. The only reason Ukrainian still exists outside the rural far west, as opposed to being largely a historical relic like Cornish or Gascon, is because of Soviet support for Ukrainian (which varied in its intensity over time).

    You really think Poland would subjugate Ukraine than would Russia?

    No, I certainly don’t. Which is why no substantive Polish-Ukrainian union will happen anytime soon, unless I underestimate even Lvovites’ love of masochism. :)

    This kind of wishful thinking is understandable. If you ever have time, you ought to spend a week each in Kiev, Lviv and Warsaw, to see for yourself.

    Yes, as I already said, thanks but no thanks.

    There are many other places I want to visit first, and I am certainly not going to Ukraine under its current anti-Russian regime.

    I”m sure that the powers-that-be in Poland and Ukraine are aware of this…

    Well, whatever, it is a theoretical possibility far in the future, for now and for the next decade it is firmly sci-fi.

    The nationalist manifesto talks of “предлагаем четкий план первоочередных шагов” (priority tasks).

    Georgia has about 12% of Ukraine’s population. Obviously Ukraine would never win a war against Russia but some day having a professional military capable of inflicting significant and costly damage, resulting in a credible deterrent to military adventures, is possible.

    My point is more that with Ukraine’s finances and position, it would be far more realistic to maintain a mass conscript army with cheap, proven Soviet weapons instead of funneling most of those meager funds to pay for professionals (again, we are talking of the here and now; “первоочередных шагов”) and hi-tech Western toys (what they have been getting from the West for free has mostly been outdated crap).

    Of course, one major problem is that this army would, in the current circumstances, dissipate on first contact with the Russian Army. But here the Ukrainian nationalists have an advantage over the current government. The people they look up to knew how to deal with shirkers and deserters (15,000 German soldiers executed for desertion in 1944), and the dictatorial regime they will inevitably build up to shore up their rule will also be able to impose such punishments, if need be.

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    • Replies: @AP

    "A few thousand armed men without mass support aren’t going to take over the government. The thought that it could seems to be based the flawed idea that Maidan was not a popular revolution but some coup by a few thousand armed men."

    It was both. The revolution wouldn’t have happened without the few thousand armed men (or really just the few dozen who fired at Berkut from Hotel Ukraina).
     
    This is true of any popular revolution. It requires mass support but also requires some young hotheads willing to take and dole out bullets.

    Likewise, a few dozen armed activists have repeatedly forced the government’s hand into doing things it probably didn’t want to do (most recently: Legalizing the Donbass blockade) because Poroshenko doesn’t have the guts or the authority to clamp down on them.
     
    This is another example of an idea with strong mass support whose implementation moves forward thanks to a small number of activists.

    As far back as September, this poll shows 42.1% of Ukrainians wanted a total blockade of Donbas, 36% were against such a blockade . The blockade is supported by the Samopomich party from western Ukraine and by Tymoshenko, the presidential front-runner. It's a very populist idea in Ukraine, like Trump's wall.

    "This entity involved the starvation of millions of its people under Moscow’s orders and artificial linguistic Russification."

    It’s the other way round. Ukraine naturally drifted towards Russification whenever there was free competition in books, media, etc., because of its greater prestige and far larger amount of content.
     
    Not really. On the contrary, Ukrainian-speaking areas under free conditions have seen the Russian language disappear. Quite a few young people in Lviv can't speak Russian, as in the Baltics or Poland.

    The greater preference for Russian-language versus Ukrainian-language media applies towards people whose grandparents under unfree conditions were forced to adopt the Russian language and who therefore grew up speaking that language as a first language. After the Soviet Union fell apart, these people who grew up speaking Russian consumed ever more media in the Russian language.

    The only reason Ukrainian still exists outside the rural far west
     
    The solidly Ukrainian-speaking "rural far West" has about 10 million people and its main, Ukrainian-speaking, city has about 750,00 people - larger than the capital cities of Slovakia, Estonia, Lithuania, and Finland (Helsinki's metro area is larger, though).

    because of Soviet support for Ukrainian (which varied in its intensity over time).

     

    It's interesting how people teaching their own kids their own language becomes "Soviet support." I imagine Russians speak Russian due to Soviet support, Latvians Latvian, etc. The remarkable thing is that Soviet "support" was, after the 1920s, largely limited to rural areas - kids were forced to learn Russian when they moved into cities, unlike under natural conditions where their language would follow them into the cities as had started to be the case when Moscow left things alone before the center cracked down. So a Russian-speaking urban Homo Sovieticus was created.

    When the pre-Soviet Russian government left things in the hands of the locals or left things alone, the Little Russian language (the same as Ukrainian) was standardized, textbooks were in that language were created. By the turn of the 19th century, only 6% of Kiev region spoke Great Russian, only 20% of New Russia did. Most of the Great Russian speakers were settlers. Mass schooling in Ukrainian began prior to the Bolshevik takeover. Like private ownership of land, the process was left to the locals in the 1920s. Artificial Russification came alongside artificial collectivization. Post-Soviet urban Ukrainians speak Russian and post-soviet Ukrainian farmland remains largely in collectives. Neither one of these reflect any sort of natural process.

    My point is more that with Ukraine’s finances and position, it would be far more realistic to maintain a mass conscript army with cheap, proven Soviet weapons instead of funneling most of those meager funds to pay for professionals (again, we are talking of the here and now; “первоочередных шагов”) and hi-tech Western toys (what they have been getting from the West for free has mostly been outdated crap).
     
    Okay, this makes sense. My impression is that they are trying to retain the current conscript army while also building up the volunteer militias into a well-equipped, modern, large volunteer military force. Presumably once the latter is fully created the former can be phased out. Or something like that. This may or may not be a good idea - I'm not an expert on military science. Has Russia been doing something similar? It has elite volunteer forces as well as conscripts?

    Of course, one major problem is that this army would, in the current circumstances, dissipate on first contact with the Russian Army.
     
    The people aren't Arabs or Georgians. They took heavy casualties at Ilovaisk without simply and quickly running away. Unless by "first contact" you mean massive missile and air strikes on fixed positions with no chance of returning fire.
  46. @Anatoly Karlin
    WTF!? This is ROG disinformation.

    I am a committed supporter of Ukrainian nationalism. Glory to the heroes! Death to the enemy!

    Labor unions are exactly what is needed. Not the bought off unions in the pockets of the owners that “stymie productivity and cancel out competitive advantages”. Those unions thrive in a predatory environment where a small cabal of swindlers get to play over a broken, obedient slave class. Similar to some parts of the United States now – productivity is measured by how effectively people are set up and ripped off, or left to die, hopefully without them being aware of how they’ve been set up to fail, because it’s all perfectly legal.

    I agree, we can’t have fake unions, they have to be real. It’s too bad Russia couldn’t help Greece, as the bandits are destroying real unions there. It’s hard to tell the neoliberals apart, some appear to be pro-Russia, and then others appear to be anti-Russia, but whether they are or aren’t is probably just a distraction, they want the same thing, enfeeblement and austerity to grab the spoils with both hands.

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  47. Anatoly:

    The Svidomites forgot a very important thing:

    How will they name their new country?

    The name Ukraine is Russian; it means borderland.

    A Russian name? Unacceptable!

    The correct name should be Oestland, Hitler’s name for the unified Poland, Galicia-Volyn and the Baltic Chihuahuas. And their inhabitants will be all helots, who will till the land for the master race, lick their boots and serve as lager guards in perpetuity.

    Heil Helot-in-Chief Semyon Bandera!

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    • Replies: @Seraphim
    Was it not Stepan [Bandera]? Semyon [Symon] was Petliura.
  48. @Thales the Milesian
    Anatoly:

    The Svidomites forgot a very important thing:

    How will they name their new country?

    The name Ukraine is Russian; it means borderland.

    A Russian name? Unacceptable!

    The correct name should be Oestland, Hitler's name for the unified Poland, Galicia-Volyn and the Baltic Chihuahuas. And their inhabitants will be all helots, who will till the land for the master race, lick their boots and serve as lager guards in perpetuity.

    Heil Helot-in-Chief Semyon Bandera!

    Was it not Stepan [Bandera]? Semyon [Symon] was Petliura.

    Read More
  49. @annamaria
    "Russia with 3.5 times the population of Ukraine has much more ability to dominate, and a more despotic political cultural tradition that makes domination more likely and acceptable (Rus magnates had much more freedom in Poland than dvoryans did in Russia). You really think Poland would subjugate Ukraine than would Russia?"
    Are you kidding?
    1. Have you heard about Bolshevik revolution that has basically eliminated/dispersed the Russian aristocracy? The USSR used to be quite strict towards progeny of "formerly privileged" and made numerous hurdles for getting education and positions of influence for children of nobility and clergy. (The most reliable approach was physical elimination, of course). The USSR was the first Affirmative Action state. And this state policy was not for the benefit of nobility.
    2. There was a time when the Slavs from the west begged Russian state to save them from the Catholic oppressors. The Russians hesitated because the acceptance of the brothers-Ukrainians would mean a war with the proud Polish schlyakhta. So, why had the Ukrainians looked for protection in the "barbaric" Russia instead of making peace with the less "despotic political cultural tradition" of Poland? https://www.britannica.com/event/Pereyaslav-Agreement

    You seem to forget that more than half of the opressors were polonised Ukrainians. Wiśniowiecki father or grandfather was cossack (and orthodox). Chmielnicki was from poor szlachta (non-polonised) and amongst cossacks there were quite a lot of szlachta too.

    Moreover, “Slavs from the west” ARE catholic.

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    • Replies: @AP
    You are correct. Contrary to both Ukrainian and Russian nationalist mythology, the conflict between the "Cossacks" and "Poles" in 17th century Ukraine was more of a civil war between classes than a clash of nations as understood in the modern sense. The main antagonists were Rus magnates (many of whom were only a generation into Catholicism - Khmelnytsky's nemesis Wisniowecki, a Rurikid prince, was born and baptized Orthodox but converted as a young adult) vs. Rus peasants and lower nobles, such as Khmelnytsky himself. The latter actually appealed to the Polish king against the magnates.

    Essentially, the magnates (analogous to modern oligarchs) were forcing more onerous obligations upon the serfs while also screwing over the lesser nobles, many of whom had extensive military experience as officers. The latter two groups joined forces to defeat the magnates (previous peasant revolts failed because they lacked enough competent officers). There were certainly strong religious/"national" components (magnates were mostly Catholics, often spoke Polish) but it wasn't simply a national conflict.

  50. @Anon 2
    It is widely expected that due to Brexit 100-200,000 Polish
    workers will return to Poland thus alleviating the labor
    shortage somewhat. Moreover, again due to Brexit, Britain
    is planning to move about 30,000 jobs in banking and finance
    to Warsaw this year alone, and thousands more next year and
    beyond. Poland is seeking to become the finance and banking
    capital of Central Europe. Polish and British elites are finding
    they are temperamentally compatible, what with the vestiges
    of the szlachta (Polish-Lithuanian nobility) now returning to
    power in Poland, and the old aristocratic families like the Czartoryskis,
    that were scattered by WW II, returning to the home country
    and refurbishing their palaces and country manors. Where will Britain
    move its banking? France? Are you serious? Britain and France
    have never seen eye to eye. Besides, Paris is becoming a city under
    siege. Frankfurt? To some extent but then again the Brits will say they
    didn't win the war to be dominated by the Huns. Hence Poland (which
    already had a stock exchange 400-500 years ago) will get a lot of the
    banking business.

    [Moreover, again due to Brexit, Britain
    is planning to move about 30,000 jobs in banking and finance
    to Warsaw this year alone, and thousands more next year and
    beyond. ]

    What is this supposed to mean?

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  51. @szopen
    You seem to forget that more than half of the opressors were polonised Ukrainians. Wiśniowiecki father or grandfather was cossack (and orthodox). Chmielnicki was from poor szlachta (non-polonised) and amongst cossacks there were quite a lot of szlachta too.

    Moreover, "Slavs from the west" ARE catholic.

    You are correct. Contrary to both Ukrainian and Russian nationalist mythology, the conflict between the “Cossacks” and “Poles” in 17th century Ukraine was more of a civil war between classes than a clash of nations as understood in the modern sense. The main antagonists were Rus magnates (many of whom were only a generation into Catholicism – Khmelnytsky’s nemesis Wisniowecki, a Rurikid prince, was born and baptized Orthodox but converted as a young adult) vs. Rus peasants and lower nobles, such as Khmelnytsky himself. The latter actually appealed to the Polish king against the magnates.

    Essentially, the magnates (analogous to modern oligarchs) were forcing more onerous obligations upon the serfs while also screwing over the lesser nobles, many of whom had extensive military experience as officers. The latter two groups joined forces to defeat the magnates (previous peasant revolts failed because they lacked enough competent officers). There were certainly strong religious/”national” components (magnates were mostly Catholics, often spoke Polish) but it wasn’t simply a national conflict.

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  52. @Anatoly Karlin

    A few thousand armed men without mass support aren’t going to take over the government. The thought that it could seems to be based the flawed idea that Maidan was not a popular revolution but some coup by a few thousand armed men.
     
    It was both. The revolution wouldn't have happened without the few thousand armed men (or really just the few dozen who fired at Berkut from Hotel Ukraina).

    Likewise, a few dozen armed activists have repeatedly forced the government's hand into doing things it probably didn't want to do (most recently: Legalizing the Donbass blockade) because Poroshenko doesn't have the guts or the authority to clamp down on them.

    This entity involved the starvation of millions of its people under Moscow’s orders and artificial linguistic Russification.
     
    It's the other way round. Ukraine naturally drifted towards Russification whenever there was free competition in books, media, etc., because of its greater prestige and far larger amount of content. The only reason Ukrainian still exists outside the rural far west, as opposed to being largely a historical relic like Cornish or Gascon, is because of Soviet support for Ukrainian (which varied in its intensity over time).

    You really think Poland would subjugate Ukraine than would Russia?
     
    No, I certainly don't. Which is why no substantive Polish-Ukrainian union will happen anytime soon, unless I underestimate even Lvovites' love of masochism. :)

    This kind of wishful thinking is understandable. If you ever have time, you ought to spend a week each in Kiev, Lviv and Warsaw, to see for yourself.
     
    Yes, as I already said, thanks but no thanks.

    There are many other places I want to visit first, and I am certainly not going to Ukraine under its current anti-Russian regime.

    I”m sure that the powers-that-be in Poland and Ukraine are aware of this...
     
    Well, whatever, it is a theoretical possibility far in the future, for now and for the next decade it is firmly sci-fi.

    The nationalist manifesto talks of "предлагаем четкий план первоочередных шагов" (priority tasks).

    Georgia has about 12% of Ukraine’s population. Obviously Ukraine would never win a war against Russia but some day having a professional military capable of inflicting significant and costly damage, resulting in a credible deterrent to military adventures, is possible.
     
    My point is more that with Ukraine's finances and position, it would be far more realistic to maintain a mass conscript army with cheap, proven Soviet weapons instead of funneling most of those meager funds to pay for professionals (again, we are talking of the here and now; "первоочередных шагов") and hi-tech Western toys (what they have been getting from the West for free has mostly been outdated crap).

    Of course, one major problem is that this army would, in the current circumstances, dissipate on first contact with the Russian Army. But here the Ukrainian nationalists have an advantage over the current government. The people they look up to knew how to deal with shirkers and deserters (15,000 German soldiers executed for desertion in 1944), and the dictatorial regime they will inevitably build up to shore up their rule will also be able to impose such punishments, if need be.

    “A few thousand armed men without mass support aren’t going to take over the government. The thought that it could seems to be based the flawed idea that Maidan was not a popular revolution but some coup by a few thousand armed men.”

    It was both. The revolution wouldn’t have happened without the few thousand armed men (or really just the few dozen who fired at Berkut from Hotel Ukraina).

    This is true of any popular revolution. It requires mass support but also requires some young hotheads willing to take and dole out bullets.

    Likewise, a few dozen armed activists have repeatedly forced the government’s hand into doing things it probably didn’t want to do (most recently: Legalizing the Donbass blockade) because Poroshenko doesn’t have the guts or the authority to clamp down on them.

    This is another example of an idea with strong mass support whose implementation moves forward thanks to a small number of activists.

    As far back as September, this poll shows 42.1% of Ukrainians wanted a total blockade of Donbas, 36% were against such a blockade . The blockade is supported by the Samopomich party from western Ukraine and by Tymoshenko, the presidential front-runner. It’s a very populist idea in Ukraine, like Trump’s wall.

    “This entity involved the starvation of millions of its people under Moscow’s orders and artificial linguistic Russification.”

    It’s the other way round. Ukraine naturally drifted towards Russification whenever there was free competition in books, media, etc., because of its greater prestige and far larger amount of content.

    Not really. On the contrary, Ukrainian-speaking areas under free conditions have seen the Russian language disappear. Quite a few young people in Lviv can’t speak Russian, as in the Baltics or Poland.

    The greater preference for Russian-language versus Ukrainian-language media applies towards people whose grandparents under unfree conditions were forced to adopt the Russian language and who therefore grew up speaking that language as a first language. After the Soviet Union fell apart, these people who grew up speaking Russian consumed ever more media in the Russian language.

    The only reason Ukrainian still exists outside the rural far west

    The solidly Ukrainian-speaking “rural far West” has about 10 million people and its main, Ukrainian-speaking, city has about 750,00 people – larger than the capital cities of Slovakia, Estonia, Lithuania, and Finland (Helsinki’s metro area is larger, though).

    because of Soviet support for Ukrainian (which varied in its intensity over time).

    It’s interesting how people teaching their own kids their own language becomes “Soviet support.” I imagine Russians speak Russian due to Soviet support, Latvians Latvian, etc. The remarkable thing is that Soviet “support” was, after the 1920s, largely limited to rural areas – kids were forced to learn Russian when they moved into cities, unlike under natural conditions where their language would follow them into the cities as had started to be the case when Moscow left things alone before the center cracked down. So a Russian-speaking urban Homo Sovieticus was created.

    When the pre-Soviet Russian government left things in the hands of the locals or left things alone, the Little Russian language (the same as Ukrainian) was standardized, textbooks were in that language were created. By the turn of the 19th century, only 6% of Kiev region spoke Great Russian, only 20% of New Russia did. Most of the Great Russian speakers were settlers. Mass schooling in Ukrainian began prior to the Bolshevik takeover. Like private ownership of land, the process was left to the locals in the 1920s. Artificial Russification came alongside artificial collectivization. Post-Soviet urban Ukrainians speak Russian and post-soviet Ukrainian farmland remains largely in collectives. Neither one of these reflect any sort of natural process.

    My point is more that with Ukraine’s finances and position, it would be far more realistic to maintain a mass conscript army with cheap, proven Soviet weapons instead of funneling most of those meager funds to pay for professionals (again, we are talking of the here and now; “первоочередных шагов”) and hi-tech Western toys (what they have been getting from the West for free has mostly been outdated crap).

    Okay, this makes sense. My impression is that they are trying to retain the current conscript army while also building up the volunteer militias into a well-equipped, modern, large volunteer military force. Presumably once the latter is fully created the former can be phased out. Or something like that. This may or may not be a good idea – I’m not an expert on military science. Has Russia been doing something similar? It has elite volunteer forces as well as conscripts?

    Of course, one major problem is that this army would, in the current circumstances, dissipate on first contact with the Russian Army.

    The people aren’t Arabs or Georgians. They took heavy casualties at Ilovaisk without simply and quickly running away. Unless by “first contact” you mean massive missile and air strikes on fixed positions with no chance of returning fire.

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    • Replies: @5371
    Under "natural conditions", a Scot grows up to speak English, not a broad dialect which speakers of standard English can only comprehend with difficulty. It's the same with Russian in most of the Ukraine, except that there's even less worth reading in the Ukrainian "language" than in broad Scots.
  53. @AP

    "A few thousand armed men without mass support aren’t going to take over the government. The thought that it could seems to be based the flawed idea that Maidan was not a popular revolution but some coup by a few thousand armed men."

    It was both. The revolution wouldn’t have happened without the few thousand armed men (or really just the few dozen who fired at Berkut from Hotel Ukraina).
     
    This is true of any popular revolution. It requires mass support but also requires some young hotheads willing to take and dole out bullets.

    Likewise, a few dozen armed activists have repeatedly forced the government’s hand into doing things it probably didn’t want to do (most recently: Legalizing the Donbass blockade) because Poroshenko doesn’t have the guts or the authority to clamp down on them.
     
    This is another example of an idea with strong mass support whose implementation moves forward thanks to a small number of activists.

    As far back as September, this poll shows 42.1% of Ukrainians wanted a total blockade of Donbas, 36% were against such a blockade . The blockade is supported by the Samopomich party from western Ukraine and by Tymoshenko, the presidential front-runner. It's a very populist idea in Ukraine, like Trump's wall.

    "This entity involved the starvation of millions of its people under Moscow’s orders and artificial linguistic Russification."

    It’s the other way round. Ukraine naturally drifted towards Russification whenever there was free competition in books, media, etc., because of its greater prestige and far larger amount of content.
     
    Not really. On the contrary, Ukrainian-speaking areas under free conditions have seen the Russian language disappear. Quite a few young people in Lviv can't speak Russian, as in the Baltics or Poland.

    The greater preference for Russian-language versus Ukrainian-language media applies towards people whose grandparents under unfree conditions were forced to adopt the Russian language and who therefore grew up speaking that language as a first language. After the Soviet Union fell apart, these people who grew up speaking Russian consumed ever more media in the Russian language.

    The only reason Ukrainian still exists outside the rural far west
     
    The solidly Ukrainian-speaking "rural far West" has about 10 million people and its main, Ukrainian-speaking, city has about 750,00 people - larger than the capital cities of Slovakia, Estonia, Lithuania, and Finland (Helsinki's metro area is larger, though).

    because of Soviet support for Ukrainian (which varied in its intensity over time).

     

    It's interesting how people teaching their own kids their own language becomes "Soviet support." I imagine Russians speak Russian due to Soviet support, Latvians Latvian, etc. The remarkable thing is that Soviet "support" was, after the 1920s, largely limited to rural areas - kids were forced to learn Russian when they moved into cities, unlike under natural conditions where their language would follow them into the cities as had started to be the case when Moscow left things alone before the center cracked down. So a Russian-speaking urban Homo Sovieticus was created.

    When the pre-Soviet Russian government left things in the hands of the locals or left things alone, the Little Russian language (the same as Ukrainian) was standardized, textbooks were in that language were created. By the turn of the 19th century, only 6% of Kiev region spoke Great Russian, only 20% of New Russia did. Most of the Great Russian speakers were settlers. Mass schooling in Ukrainian began prior to the Bolshevik takeover. Like private ownership of land, the process was left to the locals in the 1920s. Artificial Russification came alongside artificial collectivization. Post-Soviet urban Ukrainians speak Russian and post-soviet Ukrainian farmland remains largely in collectives. Neither one of these reflect any sort of natural process.

    My point is more that with Ukraine’s finances and position, it would be far more realistic to maintain a mass conscript army with cheap, proven Soviet weapons instead of funneling most of those meager funds to pay for professionals (again, we are talking of the here and now; “первоочередных шагов”) and hi-tech Western toys (what they have been getting from the West for free has mostly been outdated crap).
     
    Okay, this makes sense. My impression is that they are trying to retain the current conscript army while also building up the volunteer militias into a well-equipped, modern, large volunteer military force. Presumably once the latter is fully created the former can be phased out. Or something like that. This may or may not be a good idea - I'm not an expert on military science. Has Russia been doing something similar? It has elite volunteer forces as well as conscripts?

    Of course, one major problem is that this army would, in the current circumstances, dissipate on first contact with the Russian Army.
     
    The people aren't Arabs or Georgians. They took heavy casualties at Ilovaisk without simply and quickly running away. Unless by "first contact" you mean massive missile and air strikes on fixed positions with no chance of returning fire.

    Under “natural conditions”, a Scot grows up to speak English, not a broad dialect which speakers of standard English can only comprehend with difficulty. It’s the same with Russian in most of the Ukraine, except that there’s even less worth reading in the Ukrainian “language” than in broad Scots.

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    • Replies: @AP

    Under “natural conditions”, a Scot grows up to speak English, not a broad dialect which speakers of standard English can only comprehend with difficulty. It’s the same with Russian in most of the Ukraine
     
    I don't know enough about the situation and nature of Scots to comment on the analogy. My impression, which could be wrong, is that Scots came with Anglo-Saxon settlers and was gradually adopted by the locals who mixed with them, replacing the native Gaelic language. It seems to be a bit analogous to Surzhyk, though it is much older than Surzhyk and has produced some significant literature.

    If the latter part of what you wrote were true, it wouldn't have been necessary for the Soviets to take extreme and repressive measures (sending administrators from Moscow to create and oversee the process, purging local teachers, executing cultural figures, etc.), to transform Ukrainian-speaking peasants into Russian-speakers when they moved into the cities, producing a Russian-speaking urban population. As it is, urban Russian speech, like atheism, absence of private property, etc. are artificially imposed Soviet phenomena in Ukraine.
  54. @5371
    Under "natural conditions", a Scot grows up to speak English, not a broad dialect which speakers of standard English can only comprehend with difficulty. It's the same with Russian in most of the Ukraine, except that there's even less worth reading in the Ukrainian "language" than in broad Scots.

    Under “natural conditions”, a Scot grows up to speak English, not a broad dialect which speakers of standard English can only comprehend with difficulty. It’s the same with Russian in most of the Ukraine

    I don’t know enough about the situation and nature of Scots to comment on the analogy. My impression, which could be wrong, is that Scots came with Anglo-Saxon settlers and was gradually adopted by the locals who mixed with them, replacing the native Gaelic language. It seems to be a bit analogous to Surzhyk, though it is much older than Surzhyk and has produced some significant literature.

    If the latter part of what you wrote were true, it wouldn’t have been necessary for the Soviets to take extreme and repressive measures (sending administrators from Moscow to create and oversee the process, purging local teachers, executing cultural figures, etc.), to transform Ukrainian-speaking peasants into Russian-speakers when they moved into the cities, producing a Russian-speaking urban population. As it is, urban Russian speech, like atheism, absence of private property, etc. are artificially imposed Soviet phenomena in Ukraine.

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    • Replies: @iffen
    artificially imposed Soviet phenomena in Ukraine.

    No Ukrainian commies, ever?
    , @5371
    [it wouldn’t have been necessary for the Soviets to take extreme and repressive measures (sending administrators from Moscow to create and oversee the process, purging local teachers, executing cultural figures, etc.)]

    It wasn't necessary. People were purged and executed all over the USSR for a wide variety of reasons. The government artificially preserved and fostered peasant dialects, Ukrainian and Byelorussian, which would have disappeared even faster without its intervention.
  55. @AP

    Under “natural conditions”, a Scot grows up to speak English, not a broad dialect which speakers of standard English can only comprehend with difficulty. It’s the same with Russian in most of the Ukraine
     
    I don't know enough about the situation and nature of Scots to comment on the analogy. My impression, which could be wrong, is that Scots came with Anglo-Saxon settlers and was gradually adopted by the locals who mixed with them, replacing the native Gaelic language. It seems to be a bit analogous to Surzhyk, though it is much older than Surzhyk and has produced some significant literature.

    If the latter part of what you wrote were true, it wouldn't have been necessary for the Soviets to take extreme and repressive measures (sending administrators from Moscow to create and oversee the process, purging local teachers, executing cultural figures, etc.), to transform Ukrainian-speaking peasants into Russian-speakers when they moved into the cities, producing a Russian-speaking urban population. As it is, urban Russian speech, like atheism, absence of private property, etc. are artificially imposed Soviet phenomena in Ukraine.

    artificially imposed Soviet phenomena in Ukraine.

    No Ukrainian commies, ever?

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    • Replies: @AP
    There were Ukrainian commies, as there were Polish, Hungarian etc. commies (though as in the case of Poland and Hungary communism was imposed from outside - other than in Donbas and Kharkiv, at least). By 1934 something like 50% of the Communist Party officials in Ukraine were ethnic Ukrainians, after a native non-Bolshevik party (Borotbists) were integrated with the commies. Many non-Commies, such as the historian Hrushevsky, were active in the 1920s Soviet Ukraine during which the locals were largely allowed to develop the place's culture on their own. Starting before the Bolshevik takeover but continuing through the 1920s, local Ukrainian administrators oversaw mostly local Ukrainian schoolteachers teaching peasants in the Ukrainian language. As these peasants moved into cities the latter became more Ukrainian-speaking; Kiev was about 40% Ukrainian-speaking by the early 1930s. A similar thing happened in Prague in the 19th century as that city grew due to a flood of Bohemian peasants.

    This natural process was interrupted by orders from the central Soviet regime in Moscow, coincided with mass purges and executions of locals, and mostly implemented by activists sent from Russia led by Pavel Postyshev, himself an ethnic Russian, who replaced those locals. There was nothing natural or organic about the linguistic Russification of urban Ukraine, same as with atheism, loss of private property.
    , @Seraphim
    @No Ukrainian commies, ever?

    Lazar Moiseyevich Kaganovich, from 1925 to 1928, First Secretary of the Communist Party of the Ukrainian SSR. He was given the task of "ukrainizatsiya" - meaning at that time the building up of Ukrainian communist popular cadres, etc.
    Nikita Sergeyevich Khrushchev. With the help of Lazar Kaganovich, he worked his way up the Soviet hierarchy. In 1938, Stalin sent him to govern Ukraine, and he continued the purges there,etc. After the elimination of Stalin he 'gifted' Crimea to Ukraine.
  56. @iffen
    artificially imposed Soviet phenomena in Ukraine.

    No Ukrainian commies, ever?

    There were Ukrainian commies, as there were Polish, Hungarian etc. commies (though as in the case of Poland and Hungary communism was imposed from outside – other than in Donbas and Kharkiv, at least). By 1934 something like 50% of the Communist Party officials in Ukraine were ethnic Ukrainians, after a native non-Bolshevik party (Borotbists) were integrated with the commies. Many non-Commies, such as the historian Hrushevsky, were active in the 1920s Soviet Ukraine during which the locals were largely allowed to develop the place’s culture on their own. Starting before the Bolshevik takeover but continuing through the 1920s, local Ukrainian administrators oversaw mostly local Ukrainian schoolteachers teaching peasants in the Ukrainian language. As these peasants moved into cities the latter became more Ukrainian-speaking; Kiev was about 40% Ukrainian-speaking by the early 1930s. A similar thing happened in Prague in the 19th century as that city grew due to a flood of Bohemian peasants.

    This natural process was interrupted by orders from the central Soviet regime in Moscow, coincided with mass purges and executions of locals, and mostly implemented by activists sent from Russia led by Pavel Postyshev, himself an ethnic Russian, who replaced those locals. There was nothing natural or organic about the linguistic Russification of urban Ukraine, same as with atheism, loss of private property.

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  57. @Seraphim
    Yes, of course. The history of these regions is notoriously complicated and we can go back even further than the 'crowned Republic'. To the trade 'route from the Varangians to the Greeks' (Путь из варяг в греки, Vägen från varjagerna till grekerna, Εμπορική Οδός Βαράγγων - Ελλήνων), the 'amber route', but also of furs and slaves.
    For sure the Jews have been involved in the immensely profitable trade of these regions from antiquity (the so-called Rhadanites who detained a monopoly of the East-West commerce crossing them). They may have been involved in the conversion of the Khazars to Judaism. Why was Poland known as the 'paradisus Iudaeorum'? How come that the first coins minted in Poland bear Hebraic markings? How come that Princess Judith of Bohemia, wife of Polish Prince Władysław I Herman (1044–1102 "ransomed many Christians with her own money from the bondage of the Jews"? Already!
    Jews were conferred the 'Magdeburg rights, or Magdeburg Law', that specifically outlined the rights and privileges that Jews had coming into Poland. E.g. "they could maintain communal autonomy, live according to their laws, and be subjected directly to the royal jurisdiction in matters concerning Jews and Christians. One of the provisions granted to Jews was that a Jew could not be made Gewährsmann, that is, he could not be compelled to tell from whom he acquired any object which had been sold or pledged to him and which was found in his possession. Other provisions frequently mentioned were a permission to sell meat to Christians, or employ Christian servants". (Wiki)
    The alliance of the Szlachta with the Jews is thus very old.
    And we should keep in mind that all this space discovered early its mission to defend its 'freedoms' from 'Moskal aggression'!

    The history of these regions is notoriously complicated and we can go back even further

    Go to wherever you need to go to find dem Jews.

    What kind of intelligence is this?

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  58. @Daniel Chieh
    It really doesn't help that Ukraine is actively trying to be "rightist" while seeking to ingratiating themselves with the uber-liberal entity that is the European Union. Come on, the parody writes itself.

    Ukraine's a mess of contradictions that is actively self-destructing. How do you expect a Russian nationalist such as AK NOT to mock it?

    a Russian nationalist such as AK NOT to mock it

    Why would a Russian nationalist be required to mock Ukrainian nationalism?

    Read More
  59. @AP

    Under “natural conditions”, a Scot grows up to speak English, not a broad dialect which speakers of standard English can only comprehend with difficulty. It’s the same with Russian in most of the Ukraine
     
    I don't know enough about the situation and nature of Scots to comment on the analogy. My impression, which could be wrong, is that Scots came with Anglo-Saxon settlers and was gradually adopted by the locals who mixed with them, replacing the native Gaelic language. It seems to be a bit analogous to Surzhyk, though it is much older than Surzhyk and has produced some significant literature.

    If the latter part of what you wrote were true, it wouldn't have been necessary for the Soviets to take extreme and repressive measures (sending administrators from Moscow to create and oversee the process, purging local teachers, executing cultural figures, etc.), to transform Ukrainian-speaking peasants into Russian-speakers when they moved into the cities, producing a Russian-speaking urban population. As it is, urban Russian speech, like atheism, absence of private property, etc. are artificially imposed Soviet phenomena in Ukraine.

    [it wouldn’t have been necessary for the Soviets to take extreme and repressive measures (sending administrators from Moscow to create and oversee the process, purging local teachers, executing cultural figures, etc.)]

    It wasn’t necessary. People were purged and executed all over the USSR for a wide variety of reasons. The government artificially preserved and fostered peasant dialects, Ukrainian and Byelorussian, which would have disappeared even faster without its intervention.

    Read More
    • Replies: @AP

    [it wouldn’t have been necessary for the Soviets to take extreme and repressive measures (sending administrators from Moscow to create and oversee the process, purging local teachers, executing cultural figures, etc.)]

    It wasn’t necessary. People were purged and executed all over the USSR for a wide variety of reasons. The government artificially preserved and fostered peasant dialects, Ukrainian and Byelorussian
     

    If it weren't necessary, than the Ukrainian language would have dwindled without massive Soviet intervention to limit its use (purges of teachers, mass executions, etc.) Instead, under free conditions prior to Moscow's brutal intervention, the Ukrainian language was retained as peasants moved into cities and the cities became more-Ukrainian speaking (Kiev was about 40% Ukrainian-speaking around 1930).

    "Government artificially preserved and fostered peasant dialects" is a rather twisted way of referring to local Ukrainian teachers teaching literacy in the local language to their own people, rather than forcing them to learn in another language.


    which would have disappeared even faster without its intervention.
     
    In 1897 only 6% of Kiev governate and about 20% of "New Russia" was Russian ("Great Russian")-speaking. Language use simply corresponded to ethnic background and settlement patterns. This situation continued during the time of Ukraine's brief independence and in the early years of Bolshevik rule, when Moscow took a more of a hands-off approach and locals were able to run their own schools. The only changes were is that literacy improved (and was retained in the traditional local language) and the population distribution changed (ethnic Ukrainians became more urban). Had the Bolsheviks in Moscow not intervened, Ukrainian would have continued following the same path as other originally peasant languages such as Czech, Slovak, Finnish, Latvian.

    The massive shift in which Ukrainians became Russian-speakers occurred precisely under direct and violent Soviet intervention. This social engineering coincided with and was along the lines of other Sovok cultural shifts such as atheism.

  60. @5371
    [it wouldn’t have been necessary for the Soviets to take extreme and repressive measures (sending administrators from Moscow to create and oversee the process, purging local teachers, executing cultural figures, etc.)]

    It wasn't necessary. People were purged and executed all over the USSR for a wide variety of reasons. The government artificially preserved and fostered peasant dialects, Ukrainian and Byelorussian, which would have disappeared even faster without its intervention.

    [it wouldn’t have been necessary for the Soviets to take extreme and repressive measures (sending administrators from Moscow to create and oversee the process, purging local teachers, executing cultural figures, etc.)]

    It wasn’t necessary. People were purged and executed all over the USSR for a wide variety of reasons. The government artificially preserved and fostered peasant dialects, Ukrainian and Byelorussian

    If it weren’t necessary, than the Ukrainian language would have dwindled without massive Soviet intervention to limit its use (purges of teachers, mass executions, etc.) Instead, under free conditions prior to Moscow’s brutal intervention, the Ukrainian language was retained as peasants moved into cities and the cities became more-Ukrainian speaking (Kiev was about 40% Ukrainian-speaking around 1930).

    “Government artificially preserved and fostered peasant dialects” is a rather twisted way of referring to local Ukrainian teachers teaching literacy in the local language to their own people, rather than forcing them to learn in another language.

    which would have disappeared even faster without its intervention.

    In 1897 only 6% of Kiev governate and about 20% of “New Russia” was Russian (“Great Russian”)-speaking. Language use simply corresponded to ethnic background and settlement patterns. This situation continued during the time of Ukraine’s brief independence and in the early years of Bolshevik rule, when Moscow took a more of a hands-off approach and locals were able to run their own schools. The only changes were is that literacy improved (and was retained in the traditional local language) and the population distribution changed (ethnic Ukrainians became more urban). Had the Bolsheviks in Moscow not intervened, Ukrainian would have continued following the same path as other originally peasant languages such as Czech, Slovak, Finnish, Latvian.

    The massive shift in which Ukrainians became Russian-speakers occurred precisely under direct and violent Soviet intervention. This social engineering coincided with and was along the lines of other Sovok cultural shifts such as atheism.

    Read More
    • Replies: @annamaria
    Then how come that the best among Ukrainian authors preferred Russian language long before any "orders from the central Soviet regime in Moscow?"
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_literature as compared to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikolai_Gogol
  61. There’s no such thing as a Ukrainian in most of that region. There’s a speaker, in some cases, of a particular peasant dialect in early childhood, who when he matures and becomes a fully participating member of society speaks Russian.

    Read More
    • Replies: @iffen
    There’s no such thing as a Ukrainian

    Well, in spite of being non-existent, they have quite a few pairs of panties in a wad around the world.
  62. Seems like these Ukrainian Nationalists are living in the past – seeing today’s Russia as the same that did the Holodomor under the Soviet Union in the 20s and 30s.

    I see this as being almost as bad as any Southern American Neo Confederate insisting on unconditional support of the current National Democrat party of Al Franken, Charles Schumer, Loretta Lynch and Eric Holder as something all Southern patriots must do.

    Why?

    “Because my grand daddy was a Democrat and the Republicans are the party of Lincoln and Black Reconstruction”.

    Yeah right guys.

    How about living in the here and now? Things change, often for the worst, but sometimes for the better.

    Putin’s Russia is solidly back in the “our side” camp.

    If you doubt me, check out the youtube videos of Cossacks whipping Pussy Riot at the Russian Winter Olympics.

    I like how the Cossacks call Pussy Riot “American Whores”.

    Read More
  63. Funny that in light of 3, 4, 8, and 12. that Ukraine ranks so much higher than the Russian Federation in the ‘Freedom Index’. One would almost think that the vaunted Freedom Index is politically biased towards countries that are approved by the West.

    Read More
    • Replies: @AP

    Funny that in light of 3, 4, 8, and 12. that Ukraine ranks so much higher than the Russian Federation in the ‘Freedom Index’.
     
    This is the political program of parties that are not in power in Ukraine and that are polling at about 6% all together.
    , @bluedog
    Was that before the coup or after>>
  64. @5371
    There's no such thing as a Ukrainian in most of that region. There's a speaker, in some cases, of a particular peasant dialect in early childhood, who when he matures and becomes a fully participating member of society speaks Russian.

    There’s no such thing as a Ukrainian

    Well, in spite of being non-existent, they have quite a few pairs of panties in a wad around the world.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Kilo 4/11
    @5371

    Ukrainians are a people who have lived separately, occupied by different empires for hundreds of years while maintaining the same language, viewing themselves as one people, and given the slightest chance, immediately pushed for reunification with their brothers. Ukrainians in this sense have been exactly the same as Kurds — a people divided by foreign empires, a stateless people, but most certainly one, united people.

    Ukrainians view their nation as one of the oldest in Europe and Asia: with roots in the ancient Trypillian (Cucuteni/Tripolie) civilization that laid the foundation of the Ukrainian nation and culture over 5000 years ago. Other precursors were the Timber grave culture and Proto Indo Europeans. Many unique practices in modern Ukrainian culture and even words date back specifically to these civilizations.

    Since then, human life that existed on inhabited parts of modern Ukraine always shared the same collective conscience (the key trait of a nation), from Kyivian Rus to Cossack states: there was never a time since then when (by their own will; thus, not counting foreign occupation) separate entities were formed by Ukrainians that opposed each other — when completely separate worldviews and cultures existed amongst Ukrainians; there was always one genuine collective conscience in Ukraine for thousands of years that even transcended different imperial borders. This speaks of one, united ethnic people existing in Ukraine, and not “peoples brought together by Communists,” as propaganda from the Kremlin speaks of.

  65. @iffen
    artificially imposed Soviet phenomena in Ukraine.

    No Ukrainian commies, ever?

    @No Ukrainian commies, ever?

    Lazar Moiseyevich Kaganovich, from 1925 to 1928, First Secretary of the Communist Party of the Ukrainian SSR. He was given the task of “ukrainizatsiya” – meaning at that time the building up of Ukrainian communist popular cadres, etc.
    Nikita Sergeyevich Khrushchev. With the help of Lazar Kaganovich, he worked his way up the Soviet hierarchy. In 1938, Stalin sent him to govern Ukraine, and he continued the purges there,etc. After the elimination of Stalin he ‘gifted’ Crimea to Ukraine.

    Read More
    • Replies: @annamaria
    Lazar Kaganovich was quite a Ukrainian: "Kaganovich was born in 1893 to Jewish parents in the village of Kabany, Radomyshl uyezd, Kiev Governorate...
    On 13 January 2010 Kiev Appellate Court posthumously found Kaganovich, Postyshev, Kosior and other Soviet Communist Party functionaries guilty of genocide against Ukrainians during the catastrophic Holodomor famine." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lazar_Kaganovich
  66. @Chris Chuba
    Funny that in light of 3, 4, 8, and 12. that Ukraine ranks so much higher than the Russian Federation in the 'Freedom Index'. One would almost think that the vaunted Freedom Index is politically biased towards countries that are approved by the West.

    Funny that in light of 3, 4, 8, and 12. that Ukraine ranks so much higher than the Russian Federation in the ‘Freedom Index’.

    This is the political program of parties that are not in power in Ukraine and that are polling at about 6% all together.

    Read More
  67. @AP

    [it wouldn’t have been necessary for the Soviets to take extreme and repressive measures (sending administrators from Moscow to create and oversee the process, purging local teachers, executing cultural figures, etc.)]

    It wasn’t necessary. People were purged and executed all over the USSR for a wide variety of reasons. The government artificially preserved and fostered peasant dialects, Ukrainian and Byelorussian
     

    If it weren't necessary, than the Ukrainian language would have dwindled without massive Soviet intervention to limit its use (purges of teachers, mass executions, etc.) Instead, under free conditions prior to Moscow's brutal intervention, the Ukrainian language was retained as peasants moved into cities and the cities became more-Ukrainian speaking (Kiev was about 40% Ukrainian-speaking around 1930).

    "Government artificially preserved and fostered peasant dialects" is a rather twisted way of referring to local Ukrainian teachers teaching literacy in the local language to their own people, rather than forcing them to learn in another language.


    which would have disappeared even faster without its intervention.
     
    In 1897 only 6% of Kiev governate and about 20% of "New Russia" was Russian ("Great Russian")-speaking. Language use simply corresponded to ethnic background and settlement patterns. This situation continued during the time of Ukraine's brief independence and in the early years of Bolshevik rule, when Moscow took a more of a hands-off approach and locals were able to run their own schools. The only changes were is that literacy improved (and was retained in the traditional local language) and the population distribution changed (ethnic Ukrainians became more urban). Had the Bolsheviks in Moscow not intervened, Ukrainian would have continued following the same path as other originally peasant languages such as Czech, Slovak, Finnish, Latvian.

    The massive shift in which Ukrainians became Russian-speakers occurred precisely under direct and violent Soviet intervention. This social engineering coincided with and was along the lines of other Sovok cultural shifts such as atheism.

    Then how come that the best among Ukrainian authors preferred Russian language long before any “orders from the central Soviet regime in Moscow?”
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_literature as compared to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikolai_Gogol

    Read More
    • Replies: @AP
    Gogol moved to Russia and wrote in Russian. Nabakov wrote in English after he moved abroad also. So?
  68. @Seraphim
    @No Ukrainian commies, ever?

    Lazar Moiseyevich Kaganovich, from 1925 to 1928, First Secretary of the Communist Party of the Ukrainian SSR. He was given the task of "ukrainizatsiya" - meaning at that time the building up of Ukrainian communist popular cadres, etc.
    Nikita Sergeyevich Khrushchev. With the help of Lazar Kaganovich, he worked his way up the Soviet hierarchy. In 1938, Stalin sent him to govern Ukraine, and he continued the purges there,etc. After the elimination of Stalin he 'gifted' Crimea to Ukraine.

    Lazar Kaganovich was quite a Ukrainian: “Kaganovich was born in 1893 to Jewish parents in the village of Kabany, Radomyshl uyezd, Kiev Governorate…
    On 13 January 2010 Kiev Appellate Court posthumously found Kaganovich, Postyshev, Kosior and other Soviet Communist Party functionaries guilty of genocide against Ukrainians during the catastrophic Holodomor famine.” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lazar_Kaganovich

    Read More
    • Replies: @Seraphim
    You noticed that many Ukrainians were only (almost accidentally) 'born to Jewish parents'. But they, they were Ukrainians. Or they are just 'of Jewish descent' (Kolomoyskyi), or just 'born into a Jewish family' (Groysman, Dobkin).
  69. @annamaria
    Then how come that the best among Ukrainian authors preferred Russian language long before any "orders from the central Soviet regime in Moscow?"
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_literature as compared to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikolai_Gogol

    Gogol moved to Russia and wrote in Russian. Nabakov wrote in English after he moved abroad also. So?

    Read More
    • Replies: @annamaria
    "Nabakov wrote in English after he moved abroad also. So?"
    So:
    1. Nabokov.
    2. V.V. Nabokov was borh in 1899, and emigrated from Russia, ravaged by revolutions, in 1918.
    Novels and novellas written by Nabokov in Russian:
    1. (1926) Mashen'ka (Машенька); English translation: Mary (1970)
    2. (1928) Korol' Dama Valet (Король, дама, валет); English translation: King, Queen, Knave (1968)
    3. (1930) Zashchita Luzhina (Защита Лужина); English translation: The Luzhin Defense or The Defense (1964) (also adapted to film, The Luzhin Defence, in 2000)
    4. (1930) Sogliadatai (Соглядатай (The Voyeur)), novella; first publication as a book 1938; English translation: The Eye (1965)
    5. (1932) Podvig (Подвиг (Deed)); English translation: Glory (1971)
    6. (1933) Kamera Obskura (Камера Обскура); English translations: Camera Obscura (1936), Laughter in the Dark 7. (1938)
    7. (1934) Otchayanie (Отчаяние); English translation: Despair (1937, 1965)
    8. (1936) Priglasheniye na kazn' (Приглашение на казнь (Invitation to an execution)); English translation: Invitation to a Beheading (1959)
    9. (1938) Dar (Дар); English translation: The Gift (1963)
    10. (Unpublished novella, written in 1939) Volshebnik (Волшебник); English translation: The Enchanter (1985)
  70. @annamaria
    Lazar Kaganovich was quite a Ukrainian: "Kaganovich was born in 1893 to Jewish parents in the village of Kabany, Radomyshl uyezd, Kiev Governorate...
    On 13 January 2010 Kiev Appellate Court posthumously found Kaganovich, Postyshev, Kosior and other Soviet Communist Party functionaries guilty of genocide against Ukrainians during the catastrophic Holodomor famine." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lazar_Kaganovich

    You noticed that many Ukrainians were only (almost accidentally) ‘born to Jewish parents’. But they, they were Ukrainians. Or they are just ‘of Jewish descent’ (Kolomoyskyi), or just ‘born into a Jewish family’ (Groysman, Dobkin).

    Read More
    • Replies: @annamaria
    I was teasing A.P for his exceptional sensitivity towards ethnic purity among Ukrainians
  71. @Chris Chuba
    Funny that in light of 3, 4, 8, and 12. that Ukraine ranks so much higher than the Russian Federation in the 'Freedom Index'. One would almost think that the vaunted Freedom Index is politically biased towards countries that are approved by the West.

    Was that before the coup or after>>

    Read More
  72. @AP
    Gogol moved to Russia and wrote in Russian. Nabakov wrote in English after he moved abroad also. So?

    “Nabakov wrote in English after he moved abroad also. So?”
    So:
    1. Nabokov.
    2. V.V. Nabokov was borh in 1899, and emigrated from Russia, ravaged by revolutions, in 1918.
    Novels and novellas written by Nabokov in Russian:
    1. (1926) Mashen’ka (Машенька); English translation: Mary (1970)
    2. (1928) Korol’ Dama Valet (Король, дама, валет); English translation: King, Queen, Knave (1968)
    3. (1930) Zashchita Luzhina (Защита Лужина); English translation: The Luzhin Defense or The Defense (1964) (also adapted to film, The Luzhin Defence, in 2000)
    4. (1930) Sogliadatai (Соглядатай (The Voyeur)), novella; first publication as a book 1938; English translation: The Eye (1965)
    5. (1932) Podvig (Подвиг (Deed)); English translation: Glory (1971)
    6. (1933) Kamera Obskura (Камера Обскура); English translations: Camera Obscura (1936), Laughter in the Dark 7. (1938)
    7. (1934) Otchayanie (Отчаяние); English translation: Despair (1937, 1965)
    8. (1936) Priglasheniye na kazn’ (Приглашение на казнь (Invitation to an execution)); English translation: Invitation to a Beheading (1959)
    9. (1938) Dar (Дар); English translation: The Gift (1963)
    10. (Unpublished novella, written in 1939) Volshebnik (Волшебник); English translation: The Enchanter (1985)

    Read More
    • Replies: @AP
    The Russian books were written before he moved to an English-speaking country. But I should have been specific when I mentioned "abroad." You can also compare to Joseph Conrad, the Polish writer who moved to England and wrote in English.
  73. @Seraphim
    You noticed that many Ukrainians were only (almost accidentally) 'born to Jewish parents'. But they, they were Ukrainians. Or they are just 'of Jewish descent' (Kolomoyskyi), or just 'born into a Jewish family' (Groysman, Dobkin).

    I was teasing A.P for his exceptional sensitivity towards ethnic purity among Ukrainians

    Read More
  74. @Kilo 4/11
    Waiting to see how this http://en.censor.net.ua/photo_news/433171/daring_assassination_of_former_russian_state_duma_member_voronenkov_photosvideo_18
    gets blamed on Nuland's cookies.

    See last post.

    Read More
  75. @annamaria
    "Nabakov wrote in English after he moved abroad also. So?"
    So:
    1. Nabokov.
    2. V.V. Nabokov was borh in 1899, and emigrated from Russia, ravaged by revolutions, in 1918.
    Novels and novellas written by Nabokov in Russian:
    1. (1926) Mashen'ka (Машенька); English translation: Mary (1970)
    2. (1928) Korol' Dama Valet (Король, дама, валет); English translation: King, Queen, Knave (1968)
    3. (1930) Zashchita Luzhina (Защита Лужина); English translation: The Luzhin Defense or The Defense (1964) (also adapted to film, The Luzhin Defence, in 2000)
    4. (1930) Sogliadatai (Соглядатай (The Voyeur)), novella; first publication as a book 1938; English translation: The Eye (1965)
    5. (1932) Podvig (Подвиг (Deed)); English translation: Glory (1971)
    6. (1933) Kamera Obskura (Камера Обскура); English translations: Camera Obscura (1936), Laughter in the Dark 7. (1938)
    7. (1934) Otchayanie (Отчаяние); English translation: Despair (1937, 1965)
    8. (1936) Priglasheniye na kazn' (Приглашение на казнь (Invitation to an execution)); English translation: Invitation to a Beheading (1959)
    9. (1938) Dar (Дар); English translation: The Gift (1963)
    10. (Unpublished novella, written in 1939) Volshebnik (Волшебник); English translation: The Enchanter (1985)

    The Russian books were written before he moved to an English-speaking country. But I should have been specific when I mentioned “abroad.” You can also compare to Joseph Conrad, the Polish writer who moved to England and wrote in English.

    Read More
    • Replies: @annamaria
    Is England enough "English-speaking country" for you? Nabokov got his degree at Trinity College, Cambridge.
  76. @AP
    The Russian books were written before he moved to an English-speaking country. But I should have been specific when I mentioned "abroad." You can also compare to Joseph Conrad, the Polish writer who moved to England and wrote in English.

    Is England enough “English-speaking country” for you? Nabokov got his degree at Trinity College, Cambridge.

    Read More
    • Replies: @AP
    He studied there for 3 years and left for Germany, he didn't settle there yet.
  77. Read More
    • Replies: @Kilo 4/11
    This is the true source of the horror in Ukraine:

    http://sprotyv.info/en

    Russia Behind Most Disappearances in Crimea, Rights Activists Say. Russian forces directly or indirectly are behind almost all the disappearances in the Russian-occupied Ukrainian peninsula of Crimea (http://ru.krymr.com/a/news/28386219.html). Such disappearances are a tactic the Russian forces are using to drive out those they don’t approve of. Another strategy is to boost representatives of the smallest nationalities in order to appear tolerant even as they oppress larger ones like the Crimean Tatars and Ukrainians (http://nazaccent.ru/content/23522-krymskoj-krasavicej-2017-stala-grechanka.html).

    Russia’s War Against Ukraine Continues to Claim Victims. Russian aggression in Ukraine continues with more Ukrainian soldiers and civilians killed and wounded every week (twitter.com/Biz_Ukraine_Mag/status/844896559024234496/photo/1). But Kyiv officials say that Moscow does not have sufficient forces to attack along the entire border at any one time and thus is forced to carefully husband its resources for more narrow efforts to destabilize Ukraine (gordonua.com/news/war/u-voysk-rf-ne-hvataet-sil-deystvovat-po-vsey-linii-soprikosnoveniya-general-leytenant-romanenko-ob-obostrenii-na-mariupolskom-napravlenii-179353.html). In a related development, Moscow after announcing that it was recognizing the passports of its puppet DNR and LNR statelets in Ukraine reduced the significance of that move by saying that its migration regulations applying to Ukrainians would also apply to DNR and LNR “citizens” (novayagazeta.ru/news/2017/03/20/129980-pasporta-dnr-i-lnr-v-rossii-priravnyali-k-ukrainskim).
  78. @iffen
    There’s no such thing as a Ukrainian

    Well, in spite of being non-existent, they have quite a few pairs of panties in a wad around the world.

    Ukrainians are a people who have lived separately, occupied by different empires for hundreds of years while maintaining the same language, viewing themselves as one people, and given the slightest chance, immediately pushed for reunification with their brothers. Ukrainians in this sense have been exactly the same as Kurds — a people divided by foreign empires, a stateless people, but most certainly one, united people.

    Ukrainians view their nation as one of the oldest in Europe and Asia: with roots in the ancient Trypillian (Cucuteni/Tripolie) civilization that laid the foundation of the Ukrainian nation and culture over 5000 years ago. Other precursors were the Timber grave culture and Proto Indo Europeans. Many unique practices in modern Ukrainian culture and even words date back specifically to these civilizations.

    Since then, human life that existed on inhabited parts of modern Ukraine always shared the same collective conscience (the key trait of a nation), from Kyivian Rus to Cossack states: there was never a time since then when (by their own will; thus, not counting foreign occupation) separate entities were formed by Ukrainians that opposed each other — when completely separate worldviews and cultures existed amongst Ukrainians; there was always one genuine collective conscience in Ukraine for thousands of years that even transcended different imperial borders. This speaks of one, united ethnic people existing in Ukraine, and not “peoples brought together by Communists,” as propaganda from the Kremlin speaks of.

    Read More
    • LOL: Anatoly Karlin
    • Replies: @Kilo 4/11
    Iffen,

    This post (81) was supposed to go under 5371, sorry.

    , @Anatoly Karlin
    Very nice summary of Ukrainian history, but you forgot to mention how the protoukrs domesticated mammoths and dug out the Black Sea.
    , @iffen
    Good luck with your nation building.

    From limited knowledge, I would definitely suggest you forget about Crimea, not sure what you should do about the Donbass.

    I live in the world of Forrest Gump, so I will pass along his advice in case you are not familiar with it:

    Nation building is like a box of assorted chocolates; you never know what you are going to get.

    If you do get it going gang busters, consider technical advice to the Kurds. I can't think of anyone who would deserve it more.
    , @Seraphim
    There are recent developments in archaeology, linguistics, genetics which nuance the picture.
    The origins of the Cucuteni/Ariusd/Tripolie culture are definitely in the Balkans (the cultural complex Sesklo/Dimini/Starcevo-Cris/Karanovo-Gumelnita/Vinca, defined by Marija Gimbutas as 'the Old Europe'). What became more and more apparent is that that complex was 'Indo-European' from the very beginning, most likely the ancestors of all Slavs.

    The 'Kurgan/Battle Axe/Corded Ware' cultures are intrusions from Central Asia and are most likely the first Turanic, Uralo-Altaic wave of nomad/warrior/bandits which periodically swept the steppes. Their invasions destroyed or subdued the Cucuteni/Tripolie/Gumelnita cultures pushing them back towards the Danubian/Carpathian regions from where they returned at later times, initiating a pattern of fluctuation of populations which will recur in subsequent times. The problem is complicated by the infiltrations from the West ('Barbarossa' occurred many times over in the past).
    'Ukraine' was at all times a "Krajina", meaning 'frontier' or 'march'. The term is related with kraj or krai, originally meaning "edge"and today denoting a region or province, usually distant from the metropole. It was a 'military frontier' in which the various 'metropoles' installed their irregular troops (Cossacks) and always disputed between the 'metropoles'.

    We can't talk about a real 'unity' before the Christianization of the region, really as an associate 'march' of the Roman-Byzantine Empire. Vladimir the Great received the Baptism in the city of Chersonesus in Crimea, which was a Byzantine possession. In actual fact Christianization of 'Rus' had an early start (860-70), but it was completed through the Baptism of Prince Vladimir, when he baptized the remaining still pagan "Ukrainians" and Judaic Khazars. So, 'Rus' definitively joined the Byzantine 'family of kings' and became a bulwark against both Islam and Papist West. St. Vladimir received the title of Caesar from the Emperor Basil II (he actually took the name of the Emperor as his baptismal name) besides the Emperor sister Anna in marriage. Russian princes bore the title of 'stolnik' (ho epi tes trapezes) which they pretended it was conferred upon them by either Constantin the Great or even Augustus, and of Grand Prince, certainly conferred by the Emperor on the Prince of Vladimir-Suzdal Vsevolod the Big Nest (possibly earlier on Andrey Bogolyubski, if not on Yuri Dolgoruki who was married with a Comnen Princess). Andrey seems to me a more likely candidate, taking into consideration the highly symbolic gestures of the concomitant Russo-Byzantine institution by the Emperor Manuel and Andrey Bogolyubski of the Feast of the 'Triumph of the Cross', following their simultaneous victories against Islamic foes and of the translation of the Icon of Mother of God Eleoussa from Kiev to Vladimir (the famous icon protectrice of Russia was gifted to Yuri Dolgoruki by the Patrairch of Constantinople in 1131). Vladimir-Suzdal and later Moscow were then the legitimate heirs of Kiev. Also the Metropolitan of Rus was always a Greek sent from Constantinople, until 1448, when a Russian Metropolitan was elected because of the sliding of the Greeks into Unia. Moscow Patriarchy is the only legitimate successor of the Kiev Metropolia of St. Vladimir.

    The ideas of 'independence' of Galicia-Volhynia have their origin in the pretensions of Prince Danylo Romanovych to be recognized as the Grand Prince of all Rus which coincided with the beginning of the Eastward push of Papacy after the fall of Constantinople in 1204. Danylo appealed to the Pope for help and in 1253 Pope Innocent IV crowned the Prince Danylo as "Rex Russiae". Galicia fell under Polish domination, fell to Unia. All so-called 'Muscovite imperialism' was the reassertion of the unity of 'All Russian lands' by the Grand Prince and later Tsar of Muscovy.
    The attempts to find the unity of 'Ukraine' in the paganism of Sviatoslav are purely histrionics of the neo-fascist 'Rodnovers' and would deserve only a laugh if not becoming murderous.

  79. @annamaria
    A recapitulation on the ongoing Ukrainian tragedy. Let Clinton & Kagans & McCain rot in hell: http://www.gallup.com/poll/206891/south-sudan-haiti-ukraine-lead-world-suffering.aspx?version=print
    http://www.globalresearch.ca/what-americas-coup-in-ukraine-did/5581520
    http://www.globalresearch.ca/gallup-ukrainians-loathe-the-kiev-government-imposed-by-obama/5497679
    http://rinf.com/alt-news/breaking-news/meet-ukraines-master-mass-murderer-dmitriy-yarosh/

    This is the true source of the horror in Ukraine:

    http://sprotyv.info/en

    Russia Behind Most Disappearances in Crimea, Rights Activists Say. Russian forces directly or indirectly are behind almost all the disappearances in the Russian-occupied Ukrainian peninsula of Crimea (http://ru.krymr.com/a/news/28386219.html). Such disappearances are a tactic the Russian forces are using to drive out those they don’t approve of. Another strategy is to boost representatives of the smallest nationalities in order to appear tolerant even as they oppress larger ones like the Crimean Tatars and Ukrainians (http://nazaccent.ru/content/23522-krymskoj-krasavicej-2017-stala-grechanka.html).

    Russia’s War Against Ukraine Continues to Claim Victims. Russian aggression in Ukraine continues with more Ukrainian soldiers and civilians killed and wounded every week (twitter.com/Biz_Ukraine_Mag/status/844896559024234496/photo/1). But Kyiv officials say that Moscow does not have sufficient forces to attack along the entire border at any one time and thus is forced to carefully husband its resources for more narrow efforts to destabilize Ukraine (gordonua.com/news/war/u-voysk-rf-ne-hvataet-sil-deystvovat-po-vsey-linii-soprikosnoveniya-general-leytenant-romanenko-ob-obostrenii-na-mariupolskom-napravlenii-179353.html). In a related development, Moscow after announcing that it was recognizing the passports of its puppet DNR and LNR statelets in Ukraine reduced the significance of that move by saying that its migration regulations applying to Ukrainians would also apply to DNR and LNR “citizens” (novayagazeta.ru/news/2017/03/20/129980-pasporta-dnr-i-lnr-v-rossii-priravnyali-k-ukrainskim).

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    • Replies: @annamaria
    If Ukrainians occupied Crimea continuously for 5000 years (according to your claim), then why the Russian empire under Catherine the Second (the former German princess of Angalst-Zerbst) needed to wrestle it from Turkey and then spent a fortune to populate the scarcely populated Crimea?
    "The modern history of the Crimea begins with the defeat of the Ottoman Empire by Catherine the Great in 1783 and the handing over of the Crimea by the Ottoman Empire to Russia." Before that there were Greeks (from 5th century BC) and the progeny of Chingiz Khan's Golden Horde' warriors (from 13th century AD). What's your problem with Crimea?
    Also, how do you reconcile the supposedly iron-clad certainty of Ukrainian state ("there was always one genuine collective conscience in Ukraine for thousands of years ") with the strong territorial/cultural claims from Ukraine's neighbors, Romania and Poland? They both were wronged, territorially, by the Soviet Union for the benefit of Ukraine.
    "Poles want to recover their former Ukrainian estates:" http://qha.com.ua/en/society/poles-want-to-recover-their-former-ukrainian-estates/134433/
    http://i.imgbox.com/bDxkZ3qP.jpg
    "Bucharest thinks the territory of the country must be expanded at the expense of Moldova, Bessarabia, and Northern Bukovina. The last two regions are directly relevant to Ukraine: in 1940 part of those territories was transferred to the Ukrainian SSR. Since then, Romanians have been rekindling the dream of restoring “the historical justice.” https://eadaily.com/en/news/2016/06/30/what-is-behind-romanias-activity-in-ukraine
  80. @Kilo 4/11
    @5371

    Ukrainians are a people who have lived separately, occupied by different empires for hundreds of years while maintaining the same language, viewing themselves as one people, and given the slightest chance, immediately pushed for reunification with their brothers. Ukrainians in this sense have been exactly the same as Kurds — a people divided by foreign empires, a stateless people, but most certainly one, united people.

    Ukrainians view their nation as one of the oldest in Europe and Asia: with roots in the ancient Trypillian (Cucuteni/Tripolie) civilization that laid the foundation of the Ukrainian nation and culture over 5000 years ago. Other precursors were the Timber grave culture and Proto Indo Europeans. Many unique practices in modern Ukrainian culture and even words date back specifically to these civilizations.

    Since then, human life that existed on inhabited parts of modern Ukraine always shared the same collective conscience (the key trait of a nation), from Kyivian Rus to Cossack states: there was never a time since then when (by their own will; thus, not counting foreign occupation) separate entities were formed by Ukrainians that opposed each other — when completely separate worldviews and cultures existed amongst Ukrainians; there was always one genuine collective conscience in Ukraine for thousands of years that even transcended different imperial borders. This speaks of one, united ethnic people existing in Ukraine, and not “peoples brought together by Communists,” as propaganda from the Kremlin speaks of.

    Iffen,

    This post (81) was supposed to go under 5371, sorry.

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  81. @Kilo 4/11
    @5371

    Ukrainians are a people who have lived separately, occupied by different empires for hundreds of years while maintaining the same language, viewing themselves as one people, and given the slightest chance, immediately pushed for reunification with their brothers. Ukrainians in this sense have been exactly the same as Kurds — a people divided by foreign empires, a stateless people, but most certainly one, united people.

    Ukrainians view their nation as one of the oldest in Europe and Asia: with roots in the ancient Trypillian (Cucuteni/Tripolie) civilization that laid the foundation of the Ukrainian nation and culture over 5000 years ago. Other precursors were the Timber grave culture and Proto Indo Europeans. Many unique practices in modern Ukrainian culture and even words date back specifically to these civilizations.

    Since then, human life that existed on inhabited parts of modern Ukraine always shared the same collective conscience (the key trait of a nation), from Kyivian Rus to Cossack states: there was never a time since then when (by their own will; thus, not counting foreign occupation) separate entities were formed by Ukrainians that opposed each other — when completely separate worldviews and cultures existed amongst Ukrainians; there was always one genuine collective conscience in Ukraine for thousands of years that even transcended different imperial borders. This speaks of one, united ethnic people existing in Ukraine, and not “peoples brought together by Communists,” as propaganda from the Kremlin speaks of.

    Very nice summary of Ukrainian history, but you forgot to mention how the protoukrs domesticated mammoths and dug out the Black Sea.

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    • Replies: @Kilo 4/11
    Such claims would hardly be any more outlandish than the usual Kremlin claims made around here, such as that Ukraine is run by nazis or that what is happening in the occupied east is a civil war.
  82. @Kilo 4/11
    @5371

    Ukrainians are a people who have lived separately, occupied by different empires for hundreds of years while maintaining the same language, viewing themselves as one people, and given the slightest chance, immediately pushed for reunification with their brothers. Ukrainians in this sense have been exactly the same as Kurds — a people divided by foreign empires, a stateless people, but most certainly one, united people.

    Ukrainians view their nation as one of the oldest in Europe and Asia: with roots in the ancient Trypillian (Cucuteni/Tripolie) civilization that laid the foundation of the Ukrainian nation and culture over 5000 years ago. Other precursors were the Timber grave culture and Proto Indo Europeans. Many unique practices in modern Ukrainian culture and even words date back specifically to these civilizations.

    Since then, human life that existed on inhabited parts of modern Ukraine always shared the same collective conscience (the key trait of a nation), from Kyivian Rus to Cossack states: there was never a time since then when (by their own will; thus, not counting foreign occupation) separate entities were formed by Ukrainians that opposed each other — when completely separate worldviews and cultures existed amongst Ukrainians; there was always one genuine collective conscience in Ukraine for thousands of years that even transcended different imperial borders. This speaks of one, united ethnic people existing in Ukraine, and not “peoples brought together by Communists,” as propaganda from the Kremlin speaks of.

    Good luck with your nation building.

    From limited knowledge, I would definitely suggest you forget about Crimea, not sure what you should do about the Donbass.

    I live in the world of Forrest Gump, so I will pass along his advice in case you are not familiar with it:

    Nation building is like a box of assorted chocolates; you never know what you are going to get.

    If you do get it going gang busters, consider technical advice to the Kurds. I can’t think of anyone who would deserve it more.

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  83. @Kilo 4/11
    This is the true source of the horror in Ukraine:

    http://sprotyv.info/en

    Russia Behind Most Disappearances in Crimea, Rights Activists Say. Russian forces directly or indirectly are behind almost all the disappearances in the Russian-occupied Ukrainian peninsula of Crimea (http://ru.krymr.com/a/news/28386219.html). Such disappearances are a tactic the Russian forces are using to drive out those they don’t approve of. Another strategy is to boost representatives of the smallest nationalities in order to appear tolerant even as they oppress larger ones like the Crimean Tatars and Ukrainians (http://nazaccent.ru/content/23522-krymskoj-krasavicej-2017-stala-grechanka.html).

    Russia’s War Against Ukraine Continues to Claim Victims. Russian aggression in Ukraine continues with more Ukrainian soldiers and civilians killed and wounded every week (twitter.com/Biz_Ukraine_Mag/status/844896559024234496/photo/1). But Kyiv officials say that Moscow does not have sufficient forces to attack along the entire border at any one time and thus is forced to carefully husband its resources for more narrow efforts to destabilize Ukraine (gordonua.com/news/war/u-voysk-rf-ne-hvataet-sil-deystvovat-po-vsey-linii-soprikosnoveniya-general-leytenant-romanenko-ob-obostrenii-na-mariupolskom-napravlenii-179353.html). In a related development, Moscow after announcing that it was recognizing the passports of its puppet DNR and LNR statelets in Ukraine reduced the significance of that move by saying that its migration regulations applying to Ukrainians would also apply to DNR and LNR “citizens” (novayagazeta.ru/news/2017/03/20/129980-pasporta-dnr-i-lnr-v-rossii-priravnyali-k-ukrainskim).

    If Ukrainians occupied Crimea continuously for 5000 years (according to your claim), then why the Russian empire under Catherine the Second (the former German princess of Angalst-Zerbst) needed to wrestle it from Turkey and then spent a fortune to populate the scarcely populated Crimea?
    “The modern history of the Crimea begins with the defeat of the Ottoman Empire by Catherine the Great in 1783 and the handing over of the Crimea by the Ottoman Empire to Russia.” Before that there were Greeks (from 5th century BC) and the progeny of Chingiz Khan’s Golden Horde’ warriors (from 13th century AD). What’s your problem with Crimea?
    Also, how do you reconcile the supposedly iron-clad certainty of Ukrainian state (“there was always one genuine collective conscience in Ukraine for thousands of years “) with the strong territorial/cultural claims from Ukraine’s neighbors, Romania and Poland? They both were wronged, territorially, by the Soviet Union for the benefit of Ukraine.
    “Poles want to recover their former Ukrainian estates:” http://qha.com.ua/en/society/poles-want-to-recover-their-former-ukrainian-estates/134433/

    http://i.imgbox.com/bDxkZ3qP.jpg

    “Bucharest thinks the territory of the country must be expanded at the expense of Moldova, Bessarabia, and Northern Bukovina. The last two regions are directly relevant to Ukraine: in 1940 part of those territories was transferred to the Ukrainian SSR. Since then, Romanians have been rekindling the dream of restoring “the historical justice.” https://eadaily.com/en/news/2016/06/30/what-is-behind-romanias-activity-in-ukraine

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  84. Ukrainian phantasmagoria, guided by the US:” “Could the fire at the Europe’s largest munitions depot be Ben Hodges’s fault?” http://thesaker.is/could-the-fire-at-the-europes-largest-munitions-depot-be-ben-hodgess-fault/
    “What precipitated this fire was the visit to Ukraine of Lt. Gen. Ben Hodges, a commander of the U.S. Army in Europe. His visit was announced by the Ukrainian extremist nationalist online outlet maintained by SBU called censor.net. An announcement came just a few hours before the Arsenal went up in flames. It could be that this commission was visiting Ukraine in preparation for a full-fledged deployment of the American ground troops to Ukraine.
    Over the past three years, the US conducts an ongoing deployment of its military servicemen to Ukraine, with no prove that any of the troops have ever left the country. Some 10,000 US Marines are guarding Poroshenko’s residence and Kiev authorities.
    There are many indications that the US troops are the driving force behind the war on Donbass.”

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  85. @annamaria
    Is England enough "English-speaking country" for you? Nabokov got his degree at Trinity College, Cambridge.

    He studied there for 3 years and left for Germany, he didn’t settle there yet.

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  86. @Kilo 4/11
    @5371

    Ukrainians are a people who have lived separately, occupied by different empires for hundreds of years while maintaining the same language, viewing themselves as one people, and given the slightest chance, immediately pushed for reunification with their brothers. Ukrainians in this sense have been exactly the same as Kurds — a people divided by foreign empires, a stateless people, but most certainly one, united people.

    Ukrainians view their nation as one of the oldest in Europe and Asia: with roots in the ancient Trypillian (Cucuteni/Tripolie) civilization that laid the foundation of the Ukrainian nation and culture over 5000 years ago. Other precursors were the Timber grave culture and Proto Indo Europeans. Many unique practices in modern Ukrainian culture and even words date back specifically to these civilizations.

    Since then, human life that existed on inhabited parts of modern Ukraine always shared the same collective conscience (the key trait of a nation), from Kyivian Rus to Cossack states: there was never a time since then when (by their own will; thus, not counting foreign occupation) separate entities were formed by Ukrainians that opposed each other — when completely separate worldviews and cultures existed amongst Ukrainians; there was always one genuine collective conscience in Ukraine for thousands of years that even transcended different imperial borders. This speaks of one, united ethnic people existing in Ukraine, and not “peoples brought together by Communists,” as propaganda from the Kremlin speaks of.

    There are recent developments in archaeology, linguistics, genetics which nuance the picture.
    The origins of the Cucuteni/Ariusd/Tripolie culture are definitely in the Balkans (the cultural complex Sesklo/Dimini/Starcevo-Cris/Karanovo-Gumelnita/Vinca, defined by Marija Gimbutas as ‘the Old Europe’). What became more and more apparent is that that complex was ‘Indo-European’ from the very beginning, most likely the ancestors of all Slavs.

    The ‘Kurgan/Battle Axe/Corded Ware’ cultures are intrusions from Central Asia and are most likely the first Turanic, Uralo-Altaic wave of nomad/warrior/bandits which periodically swept the steppes. Their invasions destroyed or subdued the Cucuteni/Tripolie/Gumelnita cultures pushing them back towards the Danubian/Carpathian regions from where they returned at later times, initiating a pattern of fluctuation of populations which will recur in subsequent times. The problem is complicated by the infiltrations from the West (‘Barbarossa’ occurred many times over in the past).
    ‘Ukraine’ was at all times a “Krajina”, meaning ‘frontier’ or ‘march’. The term is related with kraj or krai, originally meaning “edge”and today denoting a region or province, usually distant from the metropole. It was a ‘military frontier’ in which the various ‘metropoles’ installed their irregular troops (Cossacks) and always disputed between the ‘metropoles’.

    We can’t talk about a real ‘unity’ before the Christianization of the region, really as an associate ‘march’ of the Roman-Byzantine Empire. Vladimir the Great received the Baptism in the city of Chersonesus in Crimea, which was a Byzantine possession. In actual fact Christianization of ‘Rus’ had an early start (860-70), but it was completed through the Baptism of Prince Vladimir, when he baptized the remaining still pagan “Ukrainians” and Judaic Khazars. So, ‘Rus’ definitively joined the Byzantine ‘family of kings’ and became a bulwark against both Islam and Papist West. St. Vladimir received the title of Caesar from the Emperor Basil II (he actually took the name of the Emperor as his baptismal name) besides the Emperor sister Anna in marriage. Russian princes bore the title of ‘stolnik’ (ho epi tes trapezes) which they pretended it was conferred upon them by either Constantin the Great or even Augustus, and of Grand Prince, certainly conferred by the Emperor on the Prince of Vladimir-Suzdal Vsevolod the Big Nest (possibly earlier on Andrey Bogolyubski, if not on Yuri Dolgoruki who was married with a Comnen Princess). Andrey seems to me a more likely candidate, taking into consideration the highly symbolic gestures of the concomitant Russo-Byzantine institution by the Emperor Manuel and Andrey Bogolyubski of the Feast of the ‘Triumph of the Cross’, following their simultaneous victories against Islamic foes and of the translation of the Icon of Mother of God Eleoussa from Kiev to Vladimir (the famous icon protectrice of Russia was gifted to Yuri Dolgoruki by the Patrairch of Constantinople in 1131). Vladimir-Suzdal and later Moscow were then the legitimate heirs of Kiev. Also the Metropolitan of Rus was always a Greek sent from Constantinople, until 1448, when a Russian Metropolitan was elected because of the sliding of the Greeks into Unia. Moscow Patriarchy is the only legitimate successor of the Kiev Metropolia of St. Vladimir.

    The ideas of ‘independence’ of Galicia-Volhynia have their origin in the pretensions of Prince Danylo Romanovych to be recognized as the Grand Prince of all Rus which coincided with the beginning of the Eastward push of Papacy after the fall of Constantinople in 1204. Danylo appealed to the Pope for help and in 1253 Pope Innocent IV crowned the Prince Danylo as “Rex Russiae”. Galicia fell under Polish domination, fell to Unia. All so-called ‘Muscovite imperialism’ was the reassertion of the unity of ‘All Russian lands’ by the Grand Prince and later Tsar of Muscovy.
    The attempts to find the unity of ‘Ukraine’ in the paganism of Sviatoslav are purely histrionics of the neo-fascist ‘Rodnovers’ and would deserve only a laugh if not becoming murderous.

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  87. @Anatoly Karlin
    Very nice summary of Ukrainian history, but you forgot to mention how the protoukrs domesticated mammoths and dug out the Black Sea.

    Such claims would hardly be any more outlandish than the usual Kremlin claims made around here, such as that Ukraine is run by nazis or that what is happening in the occupied east is a civil war.

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    • Replies: @Jon0815

    or that what is happening in the occupied east is a civil war.
     
    There's no serious dispute that the majority of separatist fighters were born in Ukraine. So how is it not a civil war? If the mere (alleged) involvement of Russian troops means it's not a civil war, then how was the American Revolution not actually a French invasion? And how can the Syrian conflict be a civil war, as it is commonly described, when armies and air forces from multiple countries are participating in it?
  88. @Kilo 4/11
    Such claims would hardly be any more outlandish than the usual Kremlin claims made around here, such as that Ukraine is run by nazis or that what is happening in the occupied east is a civil war.

    or that what is happening in the occupied east is a civil war.

    There’s no serious dispute that the majority of separatist fighters were born in Ukraine. So how is it not a civil war? If the mere (alleged) involvement of Russian troops means it’s not a civil war, then how was the American Revolution not actually a French invasion? And how can the Syrian conflict be a civil war, as it is commonly described, when armies and air forces from multiple countries are participating in it?

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    • Replies: @AP

    There’s no serious dispute that the majority of separatist fighters were born in Ukraine. So how is it not a civil war?
     
    It is indeed a civil war, but one that is dependent on large-scale support from a foreign country for its existence. It is somewhat analogous to the American Revolution though Russian support for Donbas is relatively greater than French support for the Americans.
  89. @Jon0815

    or that what is happening in the occupied east is a civil war.
     
    There's no serious dispute that the majority of separatist fighters were born in Ukraine. So how is it not a civil war? If the mere (alleged) involvement of Russian troops means it's not a civil war, then how was the American Revolution not actually a French invasion? And how can the Syrian conflict be a civil war, as it is commonly described, when armies and air forces from multiple countries are participating in it?

    There’s no serious dispute that the majority of separatist fighters were born in Ukraine. So how is it not a civil war?

    It is indeed a civil war, but one that is dependent on large-scale support from a foreign country for its existence. It is somewhat analogous to the American Revolution though Russian support for Donbas is relatively greater than French support for the Americans.

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    • Replies: @Jon0815

    It is somewhat analogous to the American Revolution though Russian support for Donbas is relatively greater than French support for the Americans.
     
    Maybe you missed my earlier post on this subject, but it's clear that French support for the Americans was relatively far greater than Russian support for Donbass. In 1780, France's total budget expenditures were 600 million livres, while from 1775-1783, France provided the Americans with around 1.3 billion livres worth of aid. So France was spending about 25% of its annual budget supporting the Americans, while probably less than 1% of Russia's annual budget has gone to supporting the DLNR. That aid included about 90% of the Americans' gunpowder, without which the revolution would likely have been crushed within a year, as well as thousands of muskets and hundreds of cannon.

    And French troops were essential to the American victory: They kept the revolution alive during the period 1779-1781, when American morale was at its lowest, and Washington had to repeatedly put down mutinies. At their peak, the French had around 10,000 troops and sailors fighting with the Americans (almost half of the revolutionary forces at Yorktown were French). Even if Ukraine's highly dubious claim of 10,000 Russian troops in Donbass were true (the actual peak number was probably somewhere between zero and 2000), this would still represent a much smaller commitment, relative to the size of the Russian military, then was the French commitment of personnel to the American cause, relative to the size of the French military at the time.
  90. @AP

    There’s no serious dispute that the majority of separatist fighters were born in Ukraine. So how is it not a civil war?
     
    It is indeed a civil war, but one that is dependent on large-scale support from a foreign country for its existence. It is somewhat analogous to the American Revolution though Russian support for Donbas is relatively greater than French support for the Americans.

    It is somewhat analogous to the American Revolution though Russian support for Donbas is relatively greater than French support for the Americans.

    Maybe you missed my earlier post on this subject, but it’s clear that French support for the Americans was relatively far greater than Russian support for Donbass. In 1780, France’s total budget expenditures were 600 million livres, while from 1775-1783, France provided the Americans with around 1.3 billion livres worth of aid. So France was spending about 25% of its annual budget supporting the Americans, while probably less than 1% of Russia’s annual budget has gone to supporting the DLNR. That aid included about 90% of the Americans’ gunpowder, without which the revolution would likely have been crushed within a year, as well as thousands of muskets and hundreds of cannon.

    And French troops were essential to the American victory: They kept the revolution alive during the period 1779-1781, when American morale was at its lowest, and Washington had to repeatedly put down mutinies. At their peak, the French had around 10,000 troops and sailors fighting with the Americans (almost half of the revolutionary forces at Yorktown were French). Even if Ukraine’s highly dubious claim of 10,000 Russian troops in Donbass were true (the actual peak number was probably somewhere between zero and 2000), this would still represent a much smaller commitment, relative to the size of the Russian military, then was the French commitment of personnel to the American cause, relative to the size of the French military at the time.

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    • Replies: @AP
    You make some good points - I was not aware that the French support was that great in terms of troops. But -

    1. The relevant comparison is not relative to Russia's (or France's) budget but relative to the needs of the rebels. Russia can keep the rebellion going with 1% of its budget, France (which may have been in worse shape economically) needed 25% of its budget.

    2. At some point the Donbas military was led by a Russian citizen, and it premier (Borodai) was a Russian citizen from Moscow who apparently had never or rarely been to Donbas before. The most famous warlord, "Motorola", was a Russian also (there were others like the infamous puppy-killer Milchakov from St. Petersburg leading the Rusich group) (warning - unpleasant photos):

    http://ukraineatwar.blogspot.com/2014/07/this-is-how-sick-it-can-get-in-lugansk.html


    The French provided Lafayette but in general there were far fewer Frenchmen in critical leadership positions in revolutionary America than there were and are Russians in Donbas.

    3. I don't think that French troops and naval blockade are less critical than Russia nullifying Ukraine's air power, providing artillery support at Ilovaisk, and providing a steady stream of weapons and ammo. Not to mention trainers and advisers as well as intelligence.

    4. About 20% of Donbas forces are Russian volunteers. Many of these are combat veterans from Chechnya. This would make them more important than their numbers indicate. About 80,000 Americans fought in the Continental Army and militias at the height (the total number would have been higher) so the French 10,000 were less than 20%. The American militias were often experienced frontier fighters, so they wouldn't have been outclassed by the French as the Donbas locals were by the Russians.

  91. @Jon0815

    It is somewhat analogous to the American Revolution though Russian support for Donbas is relatively greater than French support for the Americans.
     
    Maybe you missed my earlier post on this subject, but it's clear that French support for the Americans was relatively far greater than Russian support for Donbass. In 1780, France's total budget expenditures were 600 million livres, while from 1775-1783, France provided the Americans with around 1.3 billion livres worth of aid. So France was spending about 25% of its annual budget supporting the Americans, while probably less than 1% of Russia's annual budget has gone to supporting the DLNR. That aid included about 90% of the Americans' gunpowder, without which the revolution would likely have been crushed within a year, as well as thousands of muskets and hundreds of cannon.

    And French troops were essential to the American victory: They kept the revolution alive during the period 1779-1781, when American morale was at its lowest, and Washington had to repeatedly put down mutinies. At their peak, the French had around 10,000 troops and sailors fighting with the Americans (almost half of the revolutionary forces at Yorktown were French). Even if Ukraine's highly dubious claim of 10,000 Russian troops in Donbass were true (the actual peak number was probably somewhere between zero and 2000), this would still represent a much smaller commitment, relative to the size of the Russian military, then was the French commitment of personnel to the American cause, relative to the size of the French military at the time.

    You make some good points – I was not aware that the French support was that great in terms of troops. But –

    1. The relevant comparison is not relative to Russia’s (or France’s) budget but relative to the needs of the rebels. Russia can keep the rebellion going with 1% of its budget, France (which may have been in worse shape economically) needed 25% of its budget.

    2. At some point the Donbas military was led by a Russian citizen, and it premier (Borodai) was a Russian citizen from Moscow who apparently had never or rarely been to Donbas before. The most famous warlord, “Motorola”, was a Russian also (there were others like the infamous puppy-killer Milchakov from St. Petersburg leading the Rusich group) (warning – unpleasant photos):

    http://ukraineatwar.blogspot.com/2014/07/this-is-how-sick-it-can-get-in-lugansk.html

    The French provided Lafayette but in general there were far fewer Frenchmen in critical leadership positions in revolutionary America than there were and are Russians in Donbas.

    3. I don’t think that French troops and naval blockade are less critical than Russia nullifying Ukraine’s air power, providing artillery support at Ilovaisk, and providing a steady stream of weapons and ammo. Not to mention trainers and advisers as well as intelligence.

    4. About 20% of Donbas forces are Russian volunteers. Many of these are combat veterans from Chechnya. This would make them more important than their numbers indicate. About 80,000 Americans fought in the Continental Army and militias at the height (the total number would have been higher) so the French 10,000 were less than 20%. The American militias were often experienced frontier fighters, so they wouldn’t have been outclassed by the French as the Donbas locals were by the Russians.

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    • Replies: @Jon0815

    The French provided Lafayette but in general there were far fewer Frenchmen in critical leadership positions in revolutionary America than there were and are Russians in Donbas.
     

    That was true, at least in the early stage of the rebellion, largely as a result of the fact that Russia has a linguistic, ethnic, and historical connection with Donbass that France didn't have with the Americans. However, other than maybe Strelkov, it's not apparent that the Russian citizens in civilian and military leadership positions, actually contributed anything to the separatist cause, that the locals wouldn't have done at least as well if Borodai etc. weren't around.

    About 20% of Donbas forces are Russian volunteers.
     
    It was 18% in the first few months of the rebellion, when the DLNR forces were significantly smaller they are now. However, I believe the number of Russian volunteers has remained at no more than about 5000, while the size of the DLNR forces has grown from 30,000 in the summer of 2014, to about 50,000 from 2015 onwards. In which case, the total percentage of those who served in the DLNR forces would be closer to 10%.
  92. @AP
    You make some good points - I was not aware that the French support was that great in terms of troops. But -

    1. The relevant comparison is not relative to Russia's (or France's) budget but relative to the needs of the rebels. Russia can keep the rebellion going with 1% of its budget, France (which may have been in worse shape economically) needed 25% of its budget.

    2. At some point the Donbas military was led by a Russian citizen, and it premier (Borodai) was a Russian citizen from Moscow who apparently had never or rarely been to Donbas before. The most famous warlord, "Motorola", was a Russian also (there were others like the infamous puppy-killer Milchakov from St. Petersburg leading the Rusich group) (warning - unpleasant photos):

    http://ukraineatwar.blogspot.com/2014/07/this-is-how-sick-it-can-get-in-lugansk.html


    The French provided Lafayette but in general there were far fewer Frenchmen in critical leadership positions in revolutionary America than there were and are Russians in Donbas.

    3. I don't think that French troops and naval blockade are less critical than Russia nullifying Ukraine's air power, providing artillery support at Ilovaisk, and providing a steady stream of weapons and ammo. Not to mention trainers and advisers as well as intelligence.

    4. About 20% of Donbas forces are Russian volunteers. Many of these are combat veterans from Chechnya. This would make them more important than their numbers indicate. About 80,000 Americans fought in the Continental Army and militias at the height (the total number would have been higher) so the French 10,000 were less than 20%. The American militias were often experienced frontier fighters, so they wouldn't have been outclassed by the French as the Donbas locals were by the Russians.

    The French provided Lafayette but in general there were far fewer Frenchmen in critical leadership positions in revolutionary America than there were and are Russians in Donbas.

    That was true, at least in the early stage of the rebellion, largely as a result of the fact that Russia has a linguistic, ethnic, and historical connection with Donbass that France didn’t have with the Americans. However, other than maybe Strelkov, it’s not apparent that the Russian citizens in civilian and military leadership positions, actually contributed anything to the separatist cause, that the locals wouldn’t have done at least as well if Borodai etc. weren’t around.

    About 20% of Donbas forces are Russian volunteers.

    It was 18% in the first few months of the rebellion, when the DLNR forces were significantly smaller they are now. However, I believe the number of Russian volunteers has remained at no more than about 5000, while the size of the DLNR forces has grown from 30,000 in the summer of 2014, to about 50,000 from 2015 onwards. In which case, the total percentage of those who served in the DLNR forces would be closer to 10%.

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    • Replies: @AP

    That was true, at least in the early stage of the rebellion, largely as a result of the fact that Russia has a linguistic, ethnic, and historical connection with Donbass that France didn’t have with the Americans.
     
    Correct, this does explain the massive assistance. The French were involved simply in order to weaken their rival's position (like the Americans in Ukraine, though on a a scale that was orders of magnitude more massive than was American support).

    However, other than maybe Strelkov, it’s not apparent that the Russian citizens in civilian and military leadership positions, actually contributed anything to the separatist cause, that the locals wouldn’t have done at least as well if Borodai etc. weren’t around.
     
    Well, there is also Arsen Pavlov/Motorola, who seemed rather important. It's quite significant that in the beginning both the main military leader (Strelkov) and PM (Borodai) were Russians from Russia, not locals. Borodai's government had 2 deputy prime ministers: Andrei Purgin and Vladimir Antyfeyev. Purgin was a local but Antyufeyev was also a Russian from Russia (a Russian nationalist adventurer, Antyufeyev had tried to overthrow the Latvian government in 1991 and was active in Transnistria). It looks like this project was pretty much a Russian one in the critical early months, with natives later being eased into leadership positions. This, obviously, wasn't the case with the American Revolution at all, the French assistance was massive.
  93. @Jon0815

    The French provided Lafayette but in general there were far fewer Frenchmen in critical leadership positions in revolutionary America than there were and are Russians in Donbas.
     

    That was true, at least in the early stage of the rebellion, largely as a result of the fact that Russia has a linguistic, ethnic, and historical connection with Donbass that France didn't have with the Americans. However, other than maybe Strelkov, it's not apparent that the Russian citizens in civilian and military leadership positions, actually contributed anything to the separatist cause, that the locals wouldn't have done at least as well if Borodai etc. weren't around.

    About 20% of Donbas forces are Russian volunteers.
     
    It was 18% in the first few months of the rebellion, when the DLNR forces were significantly smaller they are now. However, I believe the number of Russian volunteers has remained at no more than about 5000, while the size of the DLNR forces has grown from 30,000 in the summer of 2014, to about 50,000 from 2015 onwards. In which case, the total percentage of those who served in the DLNR forces would be closer to 10%.

    That was true, at least in the early stage of the rebellion, largely as a result of the fact that Russia has a linguistic, ethnic, and historical connection with Donbass that France didn’t have with the Americans.

    Correct, this does explain the massive assistance. The French were involved simply in order to weaken their rival’s position (like the Americans in Ukraine, though on a a scale that was orders of magnitude more massive than was American support).

    However, other than maybe Strelkov, it’s not apparent that the Russian citizens in civilian and military leadership positions, actually contributed anything to the separatist cause, that the locals wouldn’t have done at least as well if Borodai etc. weren’t around.

    Well, there is also Arsen Pavlov/Motorola, who seemed rather important. It’s quite significant that in the beginning both the main military leader (Strelkov) and PM (Borodai) were Russians from Russia, not locals. Borodai’s government had 2 deputy prime ministers: Andrei Purgin and Vladimir Antyfeyev. Purgin was a local but Antyufeyev was also a Russian from Russia (a Russian nationalist adventurer, Antyufeyev had tried to overthrow the Latvian government in 1991 and was active in Transnistria). It looks like this project was pretty much a Russian one in the critical early months, with natives later being eased into leadership positions. This, obviously, wasn’t the case with the American Revolution at all, the French assistance was massive.

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    • Replies: @Jon0815

    Well, there is also Arsen Pavlov/Motorola, who seemed rather important.
     
    Would the likelihood of DLNR survival have been substantially less without him? I guess it depends on how important he was to the separatist victory at Ilovaisk, which is usually credited to Russian intervention (although the timeline there is somewhat murky, and by some accounts the pro-Kiev forces were already encircled or nearly so, before the Russian troops allegedly arrived).

    It looks like this project was pretty much a Russian one in the critical early months, with natives later being eased into leadership positions.
     
    The guys who physically seized the buildings and launched the rebellion were mostly locals, and it's not like they would have changed their minds and gone home if they couldn't find a Russian citizen to lead them.
  94. @AP

    That was true, at least in the early stage of the rebellion, largely as a result of the fact that Russia has a linguistic, ethnic, and historical connection with Donbass that France didn’t have with the Americans.
     
    Correct, this does explain the massive assistance. The French were involved simply in order to weaken their rival's position (like the Americans in Ukraine, though on a a scale that was orders of magnitude more massive than was American support).

    However, other than maybe Strelkov, it’s not apparent that the Russian citizens in civilian and military leadership positions, actually contributed anything to the separatist cause, that the locals wouldn’t have done at least as well if Borodai etc. weren’t around.
     
    Well, there is also Arsen Pavlov/Motorola, who seemed rather important. It's quite significant that in the beginning both the main military leader (Strelkov) and PM (Borodai) were Russians from Russia, not locals. Borodai's government had 2 deputy prime ministers: Andrei Purgin and Vladimir Antyfeyev. Purgin was a local but Antyufeyev was also a Russian from Russia (a Russian nationalist adventurer, Antyufeyev had tried to overthrow the Latvian government in 1991 and was active in Transnistria). It looks like this project was pretty much a Russian one in the critical early months, with natives later being eased into leadership positions. This, obviously, wasn't the case with the American Revolution at all, the French assistance was massive.

    Well, there is also Arsen Pavlov/Motorola, who seemed rather important.

    Would the likelihood of DLNR survival have been substantially less without him? I guess it depends on how important he was to the separatist victory at Ilovaisk, which is usually credited to Russian intervention (although the timeline there is somewhat murky, and by some accounts the pro-Kiev forces were already encircled or nearly so, before the Russian troops allegedly arrived).

    It looks like this project was pretty much a Russian one in the critical early months, with natives later being eased into leadership positions.

    The guys who physically seized the buildings and launched the rebellion were mostly locals, and it’s not like they would have changed their minds and gone home if they couldn’t find a Russian citizen to lead them.

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  95. “It looks like this project was pretty much a Russian one in the critical early months, with natives later being eased into leadership positions.”

    The guys who physically seized the buildings and launched the rebellion were mostly locals, .

    The critical period wasn’t where a few buildings were seized by activists but when the government and organized military capable of controlling territory and resisting the Kiev government were formed. At this time, the first military commander, the PM, and one of the two vice prime ministers were Russians from Russia. These guys all had experience setting up a pro-Russian government in Transnistria.

    and it’s not like they would have changed their minds and gone home if they couldn’t find a Russian citizen to lead them

    Who knows? Without clear and obvious backing from Russia which had recently taken Crimea, the locals might have gone home rather than risk arrest.

    And, these Russians were seasoned veterans experienced at setting up pro-Russian rebel republics. Who knows what locals could have accomplished.

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  96. @Anatoly Karlin

    These parties are not nothing, but their takeover is not imminent.
     
    Now tally their percentage share of the armed men in Ukraine who don't answer to the government.

    Or a people with a history of statelessness.
     
    Ukraine has had a state for most of the past century, which it used to create Ukrainians. Without Ukraine, they rapidly dissipate. At the other extreme, the Jews remained Jews without Israel for a couple of millennia.

    The alternative to some sort of arrangement or union with Poland would be some sort of arrangement or union with Russia.

    Hmm…in which arrangement would Ukraine be dominated more by its partner?
     
    Any union with Poland is unworkable except on the basis of complete Ukrainian subjugation precisely because Poland has most of the economy but if anything is slightly overweighed by Ukraine in demographic terms.

    The fact that Ukrainians are very culturally compatible with Russians, in fact essentially are Russians under the Ukrainian veneer, makes this a moot argument.

    You are being facetious? The wise thing would be to recognize them as occupied territories and cut off all non-beneficial contact (I guess coal importation only, nothing else).
     
    Of course not.

    Attacking Donbass, or even better Crimea, is the surest way to put Ukraine out of its existential misery. At least on the territories where it doesn't belong.

    Some Polish politician has already stated that Ukraine ought to have nukes... And I suspect that Trump wouldn’t be opposed to this.
     
    Russia will have the final veto on Ukrainian nuclear weapons capability, and I suspect even Putin, who has otherwise been very weak on Ukraine, will man up enough to exercise it.

    $5.4 billion goes much further in Ukraine than in other countries.
     
    Sure, that is correct.

    But using this still meager sum for creating a professional army would still be a misuse of resources. That is what Georgia did in the runup to 08/08/08 and it didn't turn out well for them.

    ‘The fact that Ukrainians are very culturally compatible with Russians, in fact essentially are Russians under the Ukrainian veneer, makes this a moot argument.’

    Really? Is this the best that can be expected from one who is known for his great breadth of knowledge and supposed intellectual curiosity and honesty? Sounds like something taken directly from the early 20th century playbook of the notorious Black Hundreds.

    ‘The Black Hundreds denied the existence of a Ukrainian nation, defined Ukrainians as Russians,[5] and attracted the support of ethnic Ukrainian Russophiles who considered themselves Russian.[6] The Black Hundred movement actively campaigned against what it considered to be Ukrainian separatism, as well as against promoting Ukrainian culture and language in general, and against the works of Ukrainian poet Taras Shevchenko in particular.[7] In Odessa, the Black Hundreds shut down the local branch of the Ukrainian Prosvita society, an organization that was dedicated to spreading literacy in the Ukrainian language and Ukrainian cultural awareness.[6]‘

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Hundreds

    Wake up Anatoly – this is the early part o the 21st century and it’s way past the time to question the uniqueness and viability of the Ukrainian nation as something separate from the Russian one. It’s surprising to see how somebody of your stature can still cling to these politically motivated tropes of a bygone century…

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